Commons Sitting of 30 November 1914

Preamble
The House met at Twelve of the clock, Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.
TREATY SERIES (No. 13, 1914).
Copy presented of Convention between the United Kingdom and Sweden, renewing for a further period of five years the Arbitration Convention of 11th August, 1904. Signed at London, 9th November, 1914 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
COLONIAL REPORTS (ANNUAL).
Copy presented of Report, No. 818 (Malta, Report for 1913–14) [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
WAR IN EUROPE.

  SELECT COMMITTEE.
  The following question stood upon the Order Paper:—
  Mr. GEORGE ROBERTSto ask the Prime Minister whether, in the event of a Committee being set up to inquire into and to recommend a just and adequate scale of pensions for injured soldiers and sailors, and of allowances to the dependants of those killed in the present War, he will consider the desirability of including within the scope of such inquiry the question as to whether the pensions of soldiers and sailors disabled, and the allowances of the widows of those killed in the South African and other wars should be revised and made to conform to such new scale as may be determined?
  Lord CHARLES BERESFORD: On this question, Mr. Speaker, I desire respectfully to ask for your ruling. There is very strong exception taken in both Services to the appointment of the right hon. Gentleman the Home Secretary to this
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  Committee. Also the Services think that there ought to be a member of the Services appointed on the Committee, and I wish to bring the matter up on the this question.
  Mr. SPEAKER: The question has not been asked.

ORDERS OF THE DAY.
  BILLS PRESENTED.
    DEFENCE OR THE REALM CONSOLIDATION BILL.
    "To consolidate and amend the Defence of the Realm Acts." Presented by Mr. MCKENNA; to be read a second time upon Monday next, and to be printed. [Bill 9.]
    INJURIES IN WAR (COMPENSATION) BILL.
    "To provide for the grant of pensions and other allowances to certain persons if disabled whilst employed abroad in connection with warlike operations, and to their dependants." Presented by Mr. HAROLD BAKER; supported by Mr. Tennant; to be read a second time upon Monday next, and to be printed. [Bill 10.]
    LOCAL AUTHORITIES (DISQUALIFICATION RELIEF) BILL.
    "To extend, in respect of the present War, the relief from disqualification for office granted by the Members of Local Authorities Relief Act, 1900." Presented by Mr. HERBERT LEWIS; supported by Mr. Herbert Samuel; to be read a second time upon Monday next, and to be printed. [Bill 11.]
WAR IN EUROPE.
  SUPPLEMENTARY VOTE OF CREDIT.

    ARMY SUPPLEMENTARY ESTIMATES, 1914–15.
    Resolution reported,
    1. "That a Supplementary sum not exceeding £225,000,000 be granted to His Majesty beyond the ordinary Grants of Parliament, towards defraying the Expenses which may be incurred during the year ending the 31st March, 1915, for all measures which may be taken for the security of the country, for the conduct of Naval and Military operations, for assisting the Food Supply, and promoting the Continuance of Trade, Industry, Business and Communications, whether by means of Insurance or indemnity against
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    risk, the financing of the purchase and resale of foodstuffs and materials, or otherwise, for Relief of Distress, and generally for all expenses arising out of the existence of a state of war."
    Motion made, and Question proposed,
    "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the said Resolution."
    Mr. JOHN WARD: I do not know what is the proper course to pursue in a matter of this kind, and whether it is possible to refer to administration in any way, or whether we are limited simply to a discussion of the amount that should be voted. But there is one matter which I would wish to take a favourable opportunity of bringing before the House, and I should like to do so now if I can do so without inconvenience to the ordinary business of the House. I wish to give utterance to a warning relating to the contracts for the Army. I expect that every Member knows that there are very ugly rumours going about relating to the subject. One does not like to speak very openly upon the matter, but I think it necessary for someone in this House to give warning to those in authority that we hope that the lesson of South Africa has been learned thoroughly and that there shall be no repetition of the scandals which then took place. Already I understand that there is a case in which proceedings are likely to be taken against a man for commandeering horses for a sum of £30 and immediately transferring them at a cost of £70 and in some cases £80. There is one point particularly which I wish to suggest. Wherever the War Office can do this work by directly commissioned officials under themselves who are liable to military discipline and control I think that they should do so. I know that there are cases where this is impossible and in which they must rely on private employers and business people to do the work for them, but wherever it is possible to appoint properly commissioned men to transact their business under their own disciplinary powers the War Office should do so. If that is done as a general rule we may avoid the scandals which hitherto have taken place in similar circumstances.
    Mr. BOOTH: I just want in a sentence to re-echo the observations which have fallen from the hon. Member, for Stoke. I cannot

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    think that the rumours of all sorts which reach us so persistently are well-founded. But I am sure that there are very capable men, business men in this country, who thoroughly believe them to be true. Whether there is any fire or not I do not know, but there is a fair amount of smoke.
    Mr. JAMES HOGGE: Can the right hon. Gentleman give to the House this kind of information? I remember that I myself put down a question to the Financial Secretary to the War Office (Mr. Harold Baker) calling attention to the very point raised by the hon. Member for Stoke (Mr. John Ward), as to what arrangements are being made to avoid what took place in previous wars. The hon. Gentleman then told the House, in reply to that question, that adequate arrangements were made, but he did not think we ought to know what they were. Since then those matters to which the hon. Gentleman has referred have become very current. There are some things on which one might say what perhaps might be inadvisable at this time, but as to which some of us, I think, could give actual evidence. If my right hon. Friend will assure us that all arrangements are made to avoid any of those scandals which were experienced on former occasions, it will be reassuring to Members of the House.
    Mr. TYSON WILSON: I would urge the War Office to exercise every care in connection with the letting of contracts. Complaint has been made in regard to the erection of huts, and I find on inquiry that some of the contractors who are erecting the huts are men of no substance whatever. They got the contracts and obtain advances of money with which to purchase material as they require it; and they absolutely ignore the ordinary conditions that apply to the carpentering trade, and the interests of the workmen under the Fair-Wages Clause. So far as the Societies of Carpenters are concerned they are doing all they possibly can to supply men to the War Office in order to get the work done, for they want to see the men removed from the tents in which they are now living to the huts; they do not want to do anything in any way to retard the erection of those huts; and I do not think that the interests of the Trade Associations or Unions who are doing all
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    they can to help the War Office, should be left to unscrupulous and speculative employers, and I hope that the Department will see to it that this does not occur, and that the work of erecting these huts will be done under proper conditions.
    The UNDER-SECRETARY of STATE for WAR (Mr. H. J. Tennant): I can assure my hon. Friend the Member for Stoke that it is the policy of the War Office in all circumstances, where possible, to employ their own officers and men, whether in engineering or for building huts. It will be obvious to the House, of course, that there is a very large number of cases where we have to rely upon firms employing a large number of people—such, for instance, as the purchase of clothing, and we cannot supply things like fur-lined coats and other articles, which have to be purchased through contractors, not to speak of other munitions of War. The firms, as the House is well aware, are producing what they can, and I need hardly assure hon. Members that nothing in the nature of a commission is being asked for in connection with contracts; and, indeed, if that were so, directly it was found out, ipso facto, it would disqualify the persons concerned. We do our best to discover everything which may be considered improper in the methods adopted. I can assure the House that the War Office has been seen by a large number of gentlemen only too anxious to sell socks, scarves, coats, putties, rifles, cordite, any mortal thing you like to mention, on commission, and those gentlemen went away with longer faces than when they came.
    The amount of the output of the War Office in the course of the last three and a half months has been very considerable—beyond anything, indeed, we ever dreamt of. In the case of the erection of huts, for instance, we have had to go to persons who, unfortunately, have turned out to be not so substantial as we were led to expect, but I can only say that I regret it, though I think it will be understood that it is not very surprising. In point of fact, big contractors, like the firm of Jackson, have been absolutely fully employed, and I do not think that they were able to take any more contracts into their hands than those which they have actually got. But, of course, these complaints which my hon.

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    Friend has made—rather, I should say, they are not complaints so much as criticism—are of a general character. I am not complaining of that for a moment, but they are very difficult to repudiate because of their being general. If my hon. Friend will bring to the notice of those responsible for the contracts any actual grievance or any specific complaint, I need hardly say that it will be carefully investigated and reported. I do not think I need say any more.
    Mr. KING: I waited to hear what the Under-Secretary had to say, and I do not think that his reply goes far enough. Surely what we want at this time is some special control or supervision which is not exercised or exercisable in time of peace. The late Mr. Gladstone, in one memorable passage, referred to the fact that in time of war it was quite impossible, in the very nature of things, to exercise the control, prudence, foresight, and economy which would naturally be exercised by the great spending Department in time of peace. In time of war, it seems to me, you want some new and extra supervision and control. It has been suggested in one quarter that some contracts should only be undertaken on the advice of expert committees. There are many business men—say men in the woollen trade or in the provision trade—throughout the country who are not directly interested in contracts. They know the whole state of the trade, they know the conditions, largely new and largely old, under the present circumstances, and they might, I believe, be taken into counsel by the War Office, and so give a very great deal of help.
    Mr. TENNANT: I was not aware that my hon. Friend was going to deal with a question of that kind. I can assure him that the War Office has taken every opportunity to obtain the help, which was given most willingly and patriotically, of committees of experts in a great number of cases, in order to co-ordinate the work carried on by the Department, so that proper prices should be offered and paid, and generally to simplify the control of the business, which is intricate and specially requires that expert advice and help which it is receiving.
    Mr. KING: That is very satisfactory. I wish to ask only one further question: Whether such Committees and such advice covers the whole ground of purchases, at any rate in the special sphere of arms and armaments, and in the general sphere of the supply of clothing and so forth? If the whole ground is covered, I am quite sure we will feel greater confidence that the possibility of extravagance and waste are precluded.
    Mr. TENNANT: Of course, I believe that is so.
    Question put, and agreed to.

    ADDITIONAL LAND FORCES.
    Resolution reported,
    2. "That an additional number of Land Forces, not exceeding 1,000,000, all ranks, be maintained for the Service of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland at Home and Abroad, excluding His Majesty's Indian Possessions, in consequence of the War in Europe, for the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1915."
    Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the said Resolution."
    Mr. J. WARD: There is one observation which was not made in the general statement by the Premier the other day in connection with the great conflict in which we are engaged. We have never had any statement as to where the second million of men are to be obtained, and we want to know whether, under existing arrangements, it will be possible to get them within the time contemplated; also whether this additional million is considered sufficient for the purposes of the War. There are a good many experts fighting in the newspapers and speaking on platforms who have very grave doubts as to whether this will be sufficient, and as to whether something more will not be required. The country is prepared to give the Government carte blanche; and it seems to me that statements now will save criticism later on. For instance, it has been stated in almost an official document that there have been about a million and a-quarter of men who have joined up to a certain time, and the other day the

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    Premier stated that there had been 750,000 men who had joined the Colours. We do not know whether it is 200,000 or 400,000 who have joined the Territorials. I found on going round recruiting and advocating and trying to get the men that there is a definite wish to join the Territorial regiment if there is such a thing in existence, and the wish is to combine and organise with the men belonging to the locality as fighting units if it is possible.
    Mr. TENNANT: For foreign service?
    Mr. WARD: Yes. At a meeting at Longton, a whole body of men numbering fifty or sixty offered their services. We said we wanted them, to use the phrase commonly adopted, for Kitchener's Army. They said, "No," but that they were quite-prepared to serve with the North Staffords. Eventually, the only thing that we could prevail on these men to do was to sign for foreign service and join the reserve battalion of the North Staffordshire Territorial Regiment, the 5th North Staffords. It strikes me very forcibly that some better and more definite statement ought to be made, as to the number of men who have already joined. I take my own district. We had scarcely one battalion of the Territorials, and I believe that now we have three reserve battalions, so that the Territorials of my district have increased four times since the outbreak of War. If that is the case all the way through, there must be an enormous body that have joined for foreign service in the Territorial Army, and unless we get explicit figures the want of knowledge of that may do us injury abroad. For instance, it has been stated once in the column of the War expert of the "Times" that 1,250,000 men had joined. That is very good, but foreigners doubt it. I saw a little later on that German authorities disputed it, and did not believe that we had got a quarter of that number joined. Then the Prime Minister comes along when this Motion was before the House, and stated, that so far as the Regular Army is concerned, the number is 750,000 men. That is half a million difference between the Government and the statement of the "Times" correspondent.
    I should imagine if all the districts were taken into account, that the strength of the Territorials must be certainly double what
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    it was at the outbreak of the War, and, that if we take into account all the other contingents, such as those from Canada and Australia, we have at the present time certainly a million and a half. That is my estimate, but I certainly think there ought to be some statement. I do not know whether we are going to try and get more men by present methods or by some new scheme. I do not know whether the right hon. Gentleman thinks, for instance, that the circular that has been issued with regard to recruiting will have a very good effect upon producing, not the men, but the knowledge of the existence of the men, and as to whether they are prepared to go, and so on. I do think there ought to be some statement so that we may know exactly the result of our efforts as recruiting sergeants. I never dreamt when I used to advocate peace up and down the country that I was going to be reduced to a recruiting sergeant, but that is the position I have taken upon myself with the greatest alacrity and with the greatest delight in the present circumstances. Do we require considerably more men, and are we taking into proper account the names of those who have now joined the Territorial Army for foreign service and whose military organisation is just as good, I believe, for fighting purposes as that of any other branch of the Service?
    Mr. HOGGE: I do think that the House of Commons ought to have some real idea as to where we stand in the matter of recruiting, and, as to what the War Office methods are with regard to raising this extra million men. I have watched, with a great many other Members, the various posters that have been issued from the War Office. I remember that the first poster was a request for only 100,000 men, and the number has varied from time to time, so that one cannot gather from the posters how many men are required by any particular time. These are the methods by which the men are being raised. I think it is fair to say, without any disparagement to the War Office, that the boom in recruiting was stopped by the methods adopted by the War Office. It may have been necessary at the time, and I do not quarrel with it, because I think it was better not to take the men if the War Office could not deal with them, than to take them and put them into training

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    under conditions that might cause considerable regret. We have, for example, a Committee of this House consisting of the Whips of the principal parties, and that Committee is financed to some extent by a grant of money from the War Office, and recently they have issued in certain parts of the country an appeal which goes into every house. That appeal, I understand, is signed by the Prime Minister, by the Leader of the Opposition, and by the Chairman of the Labour party. It has a very official appearance in that way. I personally regret that that method has been resorted to, before we have completely satisfied ourselves that we could not get the men in the ordinary way. I think everybody will agree that if the men who desired to recruit before the height was raised have had their names taken at that time and been recruited, we should not have required such a method as sending out circulars. I do not like the method of sending out circulars. It seems to suggest that it is a kind of last resort. I am perfectly certain that the War Office will get every man they like to ask for. Those of us who know the spirit of the community which we represent, know that the request has only to be made in such a fashion as will convince those whom we are asking that the conditions to which we are asking them to respond are such as we say they are when we ask them to join.
    The other point to which I want my right hon. Friend to reply is this: Are the War Office going to throw more sentiment into recruiting? I can assure my right hon. Friend that this matter is felt very keenly in many localities. I refer particularly to the presentation of Colours to the various regiments. The War Office is relying—I think confidently—on the people in various localities to help them in many ways. My right hon. Friend will agree that they have responded with alacrity. One of the many things which those responsible for recruiting have asked is that the ladies in a particular community should prepare the Colours to be presented to the regiment of that district. In some parts of the country, certainly in some parts of my own country, the ladies have actually gone the length of getting the Colours prepared. Then that order has been countermanded by the War Office. I should like the War Office really to
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    understand that the Army they are recruiting now is different from the ordinary professional Army. It is an Army for the War, and for the period of the War only. The men who are being recruited are giving up a great deal, as my right hon. Friend will agree, for the great cause in which we are all engaged. It seems to me that if such a little thing as the presentation of Colours by people territorially associated with the regiment is to be denied to that regiment the War Office, is really wrapping itself up into much red-tape. This is a matter which does not affect the efficiency of the soldiers; it makes no difference, as far as the fighting material is concerned, but it makes a very great difference in the matter of sentiment to the particular regiment which is being recruited. I hope the War Office will see that that matter is put right, so that these new regiments may have their Colours from the territory from which they have been raised.
    Sir PHIPSON BEALE (indistinctly heard): I wish to make one suggestion with regard to the circular which has been sent out for the purpose of ascertaining the number of men available and willing to join. It is that the information asked for should be sent to the local recruiting office and not to the central body. Many people have already sent the fullest information. If you send it to the local recruiting office, you can make certain suggestions as to which men in the locality should be applied to, and you can give information which it would not be desirable to send to the central body. It is desirable that the local recruiting officer should know in which direction men can be best spared, and who are the men best suited for service. I make this suggestion because I believe that if it were adopted it would facilitate the obtaining of useful answers to the circular.
    Mr. TYSON WILSON: I am not quite certain that the suggestion made by the hon. Member for Stoke (Mr. John Ward) is a wise one. I do not think that we ought to show our hand too much with regard to the number of men recruited, because the information is not confined to this country. The matter requires a little consideration. Yesterday I asked the Under-Secretary of State for War a question to which I received a very indefinite

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    reply. Recruiting in some districts is not very good. I have made personal inquiries into the matter, and I find that some people seem to think that the War Office do not care a great deal whether they get the men or not. There is nothing to stimulate recruiting. It has been suggested that if military bands were employed in large centres of population, such as Birmingham, Newcastle, Leeds, and other places, it would lead to many more men joining the Colours. I was told yesterday that if the local recruiting committee communicated with the recruiting officer, and the recruiting officer had the power, they might get the military bands. I would not wait for the local recruiting committee to ask the recruiting officer to do this, that, or the other. I suggest that if the War Office have any military bands they should send them for a week or ten days into the large industrial centres.
    I also asked the Postmaster-General a question with regard to local recruiting committees having, I will not say the privilege, but the right of sending circulars through the post to the homes of people in their particular districts. The Postmaster-General could not see his way to agree. The reason why I asked that this should be done was that the local recruiting committee understand the people of their particular district a great deal better than the central recruiting committee can do, and they can make a more direct appeal to them. Therefore, I hope the right hon. Gentleman will ask the Postmaster-General to grant this power to local recruiting committees. I believe that we should then get a better response in many cases than we do at present. Only last week a very large and enthusiastic meeting was held at Blackpool, and addressed by Lord Derby. His Lordship was so struck with the enthusiasm that the following week he wired to Blackpool to ascertain how many hundred men had joined the Colours as a result of the meeting. To his surprise he received a reply stating that not a single man had presented himself at the recruiting office. If this is prevalent in the North of England, or in any other part of the country, the War Office might well accept suggestions which would stimulate interest in recruiting.
    Sir GEORGE TOULMIN: I would like the right hon. Gentleman to take care that no steps in the way of stopping recruiting should be taken that will discourage local sentiment. The colonel of the local Territorials at Bury appealed for recruits for his battalion, and a very large majority of the men volunteered for foreign service. Hundreds applied, and I am told that when the recruiting was stopped there were very many who were willing to join. A few moments ago I received from the colonel a specimen of the letters which he says he is receiving:—
    "I see your battalion has stopped recruiting. Is there no chance of getting in? Must I join another battalion and be transferred when there is a vacancy."
    Why should not these men have an opportunity to join the regiment, if necessary another battalion being formed. It seems to me a pity that when men are willing to come forward in this way that they should not be at once accepted. Seeing that so many of the battalion have already volunteered for foreign service, it seems to me that it might be arranged that at least the whole of those now in training in that particular division should be at the disposal of the authorities for foreign service. If necessary let there be another section for Home service for those desirous of serving. We should take advantage of the feeling that there is to allow men to go with their pals; if we do that we shall, I think, find that recruiting is improving.
    Mr. YEO: When the right hon. Gentleman replies I should like him to say whether his attention has been drawn to a paragraph in the daily Press this morning in relation to the Colonials who have come from South Africa to serve this country. No arrangements were made to meet them. When the men landed they were pushed hither and thither, and had to billet themselves. The War Office had promised them 4s. 6d. a day, and no arrangements had been made for that pay. May I also ask whether his attention has been drawn to the fact that in one of the best Territorial regiments over 600 uniforms had been rejected by the colonel because they were more like tissue paper than khaki clothing. These are the things which stand in the way of those of us who are interested in our country, and desire to get young men to join the Services. I am sure that these things can be very largely remedied

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    by the War Office if the War Office will put a little more heart and sympathy into the business, instead of so much red tape.
    Mr. RAWLINSON: May I once more call the attention of the Under-Secretary to a matter which I think might be dealt with. A very large number of the recruits of Kitchener's Army at the present time are probably established either in huts or under canvas. They have endured a great deal, and I would ask whether the Under-Secretary can see his way at Christmas time to allow those men who are in England to get home for a short holiday. If this could be done, consistent with military requirements, the men and their friends would be very grateful.
    Mr. WATT: At the War Office expense?
    Mr. TENNANT: Perhaps I had better deal first with the matter raised by the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent. He inquired as to what is considered to be a sufficient number of troops to carry this campaign to a successful issue. He asked me whether it was the official view that the new million of men which we are now voting would be sufficient? I am sure the House will recognise how difficult a question of that kind is to answer. All I can say is that the million of men in addition to those already serving the Crown is a very large number. My Noble Friend Lord Kitchener is making provision for the acceptance, clothing, and training of that extra million men. While the conditions of the war must necessarily change the situation from time to time, it is the official view that that number ought to be sufficient, so far as we are able to see at present, in order to crown our Army with success. The hon. Member went on to detail certain difficulties in various districts, and in particular the district of Stoke-on-Trent, with regard to local Territorial detachments. The policy up to now has been that we should have practically a duplicated Territorial Force, one battalion for Home defence and one for Foreign service. I quite recognise that recruits have come and are coming forward who are ready and anxious to make the sacrifices alluded to by the hon. and learned Gentleman opposite. They have borne much hardship—I do not like to use the word suffering—but certainly great discomforts
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    and some hardships, and possibly even worse on occasions, and they have borne all these uncomplainingly. All this shows a really fine spirit. I make bold to say that most of the complaints that we have received have been made much more by outsiders than by the men themselves, possibly with the best intentions, and in order to put the matter right. Still, I maintain that the bulk of these complaints that we have received have been made not by the men actually serving but by men and women on their behalf. It is very desirable that men who are willing to make these sacrifices should be accepted, and accepted readily. I would say to my hon. Friend the Member for Stoke-on-Trent that if men are rejected owing to the fact that the battalion is full, that it ought to be the duty of the recruiting officer to report that fact to us at the War Office. We shall lose no time in making arrangements so that another unit may be formed, either of the New Army or of the Territorial Force, in order to accommodate these men.
    Mr. WARD: Does the right hon. Gentleman know, directly the War Office gave us a chance of a third battalion, that within five weeks we filled it up absolutely because the men could serve with their own pals?
    Mr. TENNANT: I was going to deal with that subject. Men that desire to serve together may do so. We have made arrangements by which a company of men coming together and enlisting in the same battalion shall be allowed to remain together, and I know that this will have a great effect upon recruiting. But I also think that the hon. Member will understand that you cannot go on indefinitely recruiting for one battalion. When the battalion becomes full, it behoves the authorities to create a new battalion, and the question then arises whether it is more desirable to have a Territorial battalion which upon being first inaugurated would only be a Home service detachment, or—
    Mr. WARD: No. In recruiting our Territorials in Stoke-on-Trent we make them all sign the Foreign service form.
    Mr. TENNANT: Then I can only tell my hon. Friend that he has no right to do so. It has not been our policy up to

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    now that there shall be more than one foreign service battalion of a Territorial regiment. There is, as I have said, one for Home service and one for Foreign service. If there are two battalions of the same regiment willing and anxious to go on foreign service, then that is another matter. I think it would be almost impossible to do what the hon. Member suggests, but they can go into the Staffordshire regiment of the New Army. That really is a detail. What we want to know, and what I am sure the country wants to know, is what the men have done. I ought, perhaps, before I leave that to tell the House what probably it knows, that a very large number, a score or more, thirty or forty new battalions, and what I may call Special battalions, have been formed. There are four Tyneside Scottish battalions and one Irish battalion.
    Mr. JOHN O'CONNOR: And a second Irish battalion on its way.
    Mr. TENNANT: Yes, and a second Tyneside Irish battalion on its way. The Rhondda Valley has produced at least two or three battalions, and so on all over the country. They are extraneous, as it were, to the New Army, because they have not been put into organisation yet, though eventually they will be. Lord mayors and other promoters of these brigades have undertaken certain responsibilities of a very onerous kind for the equipment and feeding and housing of their battalions until such time as we at the War Office are able to take them over. Then with regard to numbers, I think I ought perhaps to say that the higher policy as it were recommended by my hon. Friend has decreed that it is not wise to make public the whole circumstantiality of the facts connected with the actual number of men who have been enlisted. My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister gave the House and the country some figures that were perhaps under the mark, and I do not think the House ought to press me with regard to those figures, and if they will allow me, I will leave it where the Prime Minister left it. A question has also been raised in connection with bands. I think we have all heard a few more bands lately than in previous months, and therefore the House may assume we have all been anxious to utilise any bands remaining in
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    this country for the purpose of recruiting and the stimulating of that feeling of patriotism, and a wish to help the country in its great need which we all desire to cultivate. The hon. Member for Poplar seemed to think we had not been altogether doing our duty, and that we were bound up and swathed in red tape. I think that charge does not lie against the War Office at the present moment. The landing of the South Africans, in connection with which complaint is made, is new to me. I heard of it to-day for the first time. I am not quite sure of this, but I do not think it is our Department that has to make such arrangements.
    Mr. YEO: I did not charge the War Office with being negligent; I only asked was it true?
    Mr. TENNANT: I am very much obliged to the hon. Gentleman for that. He does not make a charge, he only asks a question. I really cannot answer it now. I only heard of it by chance from what appeared in the newspapers. But I shall be very glad to inquire and give my hon. Friend an answer. Another suggestion was made that we should get into touch with the Post Office in order that circulars might be issued free of charge.
    Mr. TYSON WILSON: By the local committees.
    1.0 P.M.
    Mr. TENNANT: I shall be very glad to consider that, but my right hon. Friend the Postmaster-General will have something to say on the matter. My hon. Friend the Member for South Ayrshire raised a point with regard to the Committee issuing circulars to every householder throughout the country. I have seen it complained that the circular is worded in too official a manner. That, I dare say, is a matter which my hon. Friend the Chief Whip would consider, and we might have two brews. My hon. Friend the Member for Dumfries does not like brewing, but I think there might be alternative diction, if I might say so, in order that he who runs may read. With regard to reporting to the recruiting officer and not to the Committee, I think it possibly might be arranged. My hon. Friend might consult with the Committee and the Chief Whip. I am talking now of the Committee

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    which has its headquarters in Downing Street — the Parliamentary Committee. This Committee issued these circulars to the householders, and my hon. Friend the Chief Whip is more responsible, I think, for the issue from that Committee than anybody else, and I am sure any suggestion my hon. Friend makes will receive his careful consideration and probably will be acted upon without delay.
    The hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Cambridge asked if we could arrange for some holidays for the troops who have been training, and who have gone through a certain number of hardship and trouble. I may inform the House that it has been the custom through all this period for commanding officers to give leave at reasonable intervals to the troops under their command for Sunday to Monday visits to their homes, and we at the War Office have made arrangements by which railway companies take these troops to their homes and back at half-fare—that is, the double journey for single fare. Whether a Christmas holiday could be arranged for is rather doubtful. The House will remember that we have, to some extent, placed the defence of our shores in the hands of those troops who are now training. I do not know that I need say more. It seems to me it would be undesirable to name a particular day when the whole of the defending force of this country should be on holiday. Notice of such holiday is not altogether required. Then, as to the question of Colours, my Noble Friend the Secretary of State for War is not a man whose chief characteristic is sentiment, and having said that, I am unable to say whether I think even the persuasive eloquence of my hon. Friend the Member for East Edinburgh would alter the decision he has already come to. I shall be very glad to give him the opportunity of learning what my hon. Friend has to say. I am sure the Secretary of State for War will be very glad to listen to his persuasive eloquence, though I cannot say that it would have so great an effect upon him as to make him change his decision upon a matter which he has opposed most strongly.
    Mr. SHIRLEY BENN: The right hon. Gentleman has spoken of one Irish Tyneside battalion, and the hon. Member for
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    North Kildare (Mr. John O'Connor) spoke of two. I have just returned from speaking in Gateshead, and I was told that they had already recruited 2,900 men and that they did not intend stopping until they had secured four battalions and that they would have a Tyneside Irish Brigade.
    Mr. TENNANT: I am much obliged to the hon. Member for that information.
    Question put, and agreed to.

    WAYS AND MEANS [17th November].
    Resolution reported,
    1. "That, towards making good the Supply granted to His Majesty for the service of the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1915, a sum of £225,000,000 be granted out of the Consolidated Fund of the United Kingdom."
    Question, "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the said Resolution," put, and agreed to.

    CONSOLIDATED FUND (No. 1) BILL.
    Bill ordered to be brought in by the Chairman of Ways and Means, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and Mr. Montagu; presented accordingly, and read the first time; to be read a second time upon Monday next, 23rd November, and to be printed. [Bill 12.]
    WAYS AND MEANS [17th November].
    Resolution reported,

    LOAN.
    2. "That any amount may be raised by the Treasury under the War Loan Act, 1914, which is in their opinion required for the purpose of defraying the expenses of the present war, notwithstanding that the amount raised may exceed the Supply for the time being granted to His Majesty for the service of the year ending the thirty-first day of March, nineteen hundred and fifteen."—[Mr. Montagu.]
    Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the said Resolution."
    Sir F. BANBURY: I should like some explanation of this Resolution. I have not had the opportunity of seeing it on the

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    Paper, and I think the words are not the words which were on the Paper. As far as I can gather it authorises the Government to spend money beyond that which has been granted by Parliament, and I think that is a strong order, even for the Government at the present time. I may have misunderstood the words, and I should like to have some explanation as to the necessity for this measure. I should also like to know whether this Resolution empowers the Government to spend money which has not been authorised by Parliament?
    The FINANCIAL SECRETARY to the TREASURY (Mr. Montagu): This is a Resolution upon which it is proposed to found the Finance Bill to be introduced, and on this Resolution a Clause will be propounded in that Finance Bill. The Resolution enables the Treasury to raise a loan, but not to spend money in excess of that voted by Parliament, and the reason for the necessity of the Resolution is that, under the terms of the War Loan, the prospectus for which has just been issued, certain instalments are collected after the end of the financial year, and without this Resolution it would be impossible to arrange for that. We are taking power to raise a bigger loan, but we do not desire to spend more than the supply of this year.
    Sir F. BANBURY: Am I right in saying that the Government cannot raise a further loan beyond the amount of the War Loan without coming to the House of Commons for their sanction?
    Mr. MONTAGU: The Government could raise a further loan, and when the hon. Baronet sees the Clause he will see the difficulty of passing a Clause which would limit the right of the Treasury to do this. If you put in a specific sum, there will be a difficulty in dealing with that in Ways and Means, and under the War Loans Act. There is the difficulty of stating now whether you propose, and when you propose, to repay the outstanding Bills, or whether you propose to renew them. All this makes our proposal desirable in the difficult circumstances of the case, when borrowing has to be undertaken at a moment suitable to the market, and it is very difficult to put figures in the Bill.
    Sir F. BANBURY: I will wait until I see the Clause.
    Question put, and agreed to.
    Resolutions reported,

    TEA.
    3. "That, in lieu of the duty of Customs payable on tea, there shall be charged, levied, and paid on and after the eighteenth day of November, nineteen hundred and fourteen, and until the first day of July, nineteen hundred and fifteen, the following duty, that is to say:—
    Tea, the pound … eight pence,
    and it is declared that it is expedient in the public interest that this Resolution shall have statutory effect under the provisions of the Provisional Collection of Taxes Act, 1913."

    BEER (CUSTOMS).
    4. "That, in addition to the duties of Customs now payable on beer imported into Great Britain or Ireland, there shall, on and after the eighteenth day of November, nineteen hundred and fourteen, be charged, levied, and paid the following duties, that is to say:—
    In the case of beer called or similar to mum, spruce, black beer, or Berlin white beer or other preparations, whether fermented or not fermented, of a similar character:—

    £

    s.

    d.

    For every thirty-six gallons where the worts thereof are or were before fermentation of a specific gravity—

    Not exceeding one thousand two hundred and fifteen degrees, a duty of

    3

    9

    0

    Exceeding one thousand two hundred and fifteen degrees, a duty of

    4

    0

    10

    In the case of every description of beer other than that above specified—

    For every thirty-six gallons where the worts thereof were before fermentation of a specific gravity of one thousand and fifty degrees, a duty of

    0

    17

    3

    and so in proportion for any difference in gravity;

    and it is declared that it is expedient in the public interest that this Resolution shall have statutory effect under the provisions of the Provisional Collection of Taxes Act, 1913."

    BEER (EXCISE).
    5. "That, in addition to the duty of Excise in respect of beer brewed in the United Kingdom, there shall, on and after the eighteenth day of November, nineteen hundred and fourteen, be charged, levied, and paid the following duties, that is to say:—

    £

    s.

    d.

    For every thirty-six gallons of worts of a specific gravity of one thousand and fifty-five degrees, a duty of

    0

    17

    3

    and so in proportion for any difference in quantity or gravity;

    and it is declared that it is expedient in the public interest that this Resolution shall have statutory effect under the provisions of the Provisional Collection of Taxes Act, 1913."

    BEER (SPECIFIC GRAVITY) TABLES.
    6. "That amended tables for determining the specific gravity of worts of beer shall be substituted for the tables now in use for that purpose."
    Motion, "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the said Resolutions," put, and agreed to.

    WAYS AND MEANS [19th November.]
    Resolution reported,

    INCOME TAX.
    "That—

    (1) For the last four months of the current Income Tax the rate of Income Tax shall be double the rate fixed by the Finance Act, 1914 (namely, two shillings
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    and six pence, instead of one shilling and three pence), and the rates of Super-tax and of the amounts payable in respect of earned income, and in respect of small incomes under Section six of the Finance Act, 1914, shall also be doubled for that period;

    (2) Effect shall be given to the said increase of tax as follows:—

    (a) by making such deductions in the case of dividends, interest, or other annual sums due or payable after the fifth day of December, nineteen hundred and fourteen, as will make the total amount deducted in respect of Income Tax for the year equal to that which would have been deducted if Income Tax for the year had been at the rate of one shilling and eight pence; and

    (b) by treating the amount payable in respect of any assessments already made of tax chargeable otherwise than by way of deduction or of Super-tax as increased by one-third; and

    (c) by increasing any such assessments not already made by one-third; and

    (d) where the amount of any exemption, relief, or abatement under the Income Tax Acts is to be determined by reference to the amount of Income Tax on any sum, by calculating the amount of the tax at one shilling and eight pence.

    (3) That it is expedient to give relief in certain cases in respect of diminution of income caused by the present War, and that any relief so given should be in substitution for such relief (if any) as may be claimed in those cases under the Income Tax Acts.

    (4) It is declared that it is expedient in the public interest that this Resolution shall have statutory effect under the provisions of the Provisional Collection of Taxes Act, 1913."—[Mr. Montagu.]

    Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the said Resolution."
    Mr. PROTHERO: I do not know if I shall be ruled out of order on the first occasion of addressing this House, but I

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    want to put a question as to whether the pensions of soldiers and sailors can be altogether exempted from Income Tax, or whether, failing that, as they have already given their services to the country, the Government will consider if they can be exempted from, at least, the higher scale of Income Tax Duty? If I am in order, I shall be glad to raise that point.
    Mr. SPEAKER: The hon. Member will have an opportunity to do so on the Bill. This is only the Resolution upon which the Bill is founded. The Bill will be introduced in a moment or two, and will then be circulated. When it is discussed, either on Monday, or at a subsequent stage, the hon. Member will have an opportunity of raising the exact point of which he has given notice.
    Question put, and agreed to.

    AMENDMENT OF LAW.
    Resolution reported,
    2. "That it is expedient to amend the Law relating to National Debt, Customs and Inland Revenue (including Excise), and to make further provision in connection with finance."
    Question, "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the said Resolution," put, and agreed to.

    FINANCE BILL.
    Bill ordered to be brought in upon the said Resolutions, and upon the Second, Third, Fourth, Fifth, and Sixth of the Resolutions reported from the Committee of Ways and Means of 17th November and agreed to this day, by the Chairman of Ways and Means, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, the Attorney-General, and Mr. Montagu. Bill "to grant certain additional duties of Customs and Inland Revenue, including Excise, to alter other duties, and to amend the Law relating to Customs and Inland Revenue, including Excise and the National Debt, and to make further provision in connection with Finance," presented accordingly; read the first time; to be read a second time upon Monday next, and to be printed. [Bill 13.]

    GOVERNMENT WAR OBLIGATIONS.
    (CONSIDERED IN COMMITTEE.)
    [Mr. WHITLEY in the Chair.]
    Mr. MONTAGU: I have to move, "That it is expedient to authorise the payment out of moneys provided by Parliament, and, if those moneys are insufficient, out of the Consolidated Fund, of such sums as may be required for giving effect to obligations incurred for the purposes of the present War or in connection therewith, by or on behalf of His Majesty's Government, and for other purposes in relation thereto."
    I will submit this Resolution in a very few sentences. In the emergency which fell upon this country when War was declared, the Chancellor of the Exchequer and his colleogues, in consultation with representatives of the commercial and banking interests in this country, made certain arrangements for the relief of the situation with which the House is generally familiar. There was a scheme dealing with the Moratorium on Bills of Exchange, and also for relief in connection with certain Stock Exchange transactions. If hon. Members will read the documents circulated from time to time in connection with this matter, they will see it is recognised that each and every step taken required the legislative sanction of this House, for the obligations that had been undertaken in the name of the nation at a time when prompt action was absolutely essential, and it was always intended to get the sanction of the House for them at the earliest possible opportunity. We also guaranteed Egyptian Treasury Bills. If the House will be pleased to pass this Resolution in Committee to-day, and report on the subject to-day, a Bill will be introduced to legalise these transactions and upon it my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer will make a full statement and lay Papers before the House.
    Question put, and agreed to.
    Reported to be reported upon Monday next.

    TRADING WITH THE ENEMY ACT (1914) AMENDMENT BILL.
    Order for Second Reading read.
    The ATTORNEY-GENERAL (Sir J. Simon): I beg to move, "That the Bill be now read a second time."
    It will, I think, be for the convenience of the House if I make a short statement explanatory of the provisions contained in the Bill. Trading with the enemy is a criminal offence by common law, and no Act of Parliament, therefore, is needed to create that offence. But, none the less, it was found desirable, at the beginning of the War to pass an emergency Statute—the Trading with the Enemy Act, 1914—in order to strengthen the common law and to improve the machinery available for applying it. The present Bill is a Bill to amend that Act, because, in the interval which has since elapsed, it has been possible, by experience, to find in what direction changes in the original Trading with the Enemy Act would appear to be desirable. May I just remind the House, briefly, of the provisions embodied in the Trading with the Enemy Act passed two months ago. There were three things in that Act which are important. In the first place it authorised and made effective Proclamations against trading with the enemy, one of which had been issued on the very day when war broke out, and additions to and alterations of which have been since made by Proclamation. In the second place, it imposed more severe penalties, and provided more summary machinery, for punishing those who committed the offence of trading with the enemy, whether that offence was an offence at common law or a breach of the Proclamation. In the third place, it contained provisions dealing with films and companies in this country which might need to be specially watched and supervised because of their predominantly German character. Of course, a limited company which is registered in this country, and carries on business here, is not the same thing as a shareholder who holds shares in it, or even as a director who directs it. From some points of view, such a limited company must be treated as being what it really is, namely, an English institution.
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    But on the other hand, of course, when the object is to prevent trading with the enemy, it is obvious that special care needs, to be taken if you have a company which, from some points of view, is British, but none the less is controlled by interests which are largely held by individuals who are subjects of the State at war with us. Therefore, the original Trading with the Enemy Act provided that where you had any partnership firm, one or more members of which was the subject of or resident in, or carrying on business in, the enemy's state, or a company with enemy control or shareholding to the extent of one-third, the Board of Trade might appoint an inspector who would have a right to examine the books of such firm, and who might go further and, in a proper case, when satisfied that an offence under the Act was likely to be committed, or for some other reason there mentioned, might appoint a controller to exercise powers rather like those of a receiver, the object being, in regard to those enterprises in this country which might need to be specially watched and guarded, to secure by inspection, or, it may be, by actual control, that the directors of such concern and those interested in it should not use the concern to supply the enemy with financial aid. Those were the three provisions of the original Act. Two months have passed since the original Act received Royal Assent on 18th September, because here we are now at 20th November, and as might have been expected in a subject which is at once so novel and complicated, experience has shown that there are certain directions in which the law might be improved.
    I should like, quite briefly, to indicate to the House what are the principal changes which we recommend them to make in the existing law. In the first place, and this, perhaps, is the most striking feature of the new Bill, we propose to create an authority which will receive and preserve in safe custody in this country, some portion, at any rate, of that money and those other interests which, if they are not put under such custody, might find their way to the enemy's state. We propose in England and Wales to appoint the Public Trustee as custodian, but inasmuch as the Public Trustee is not an official whose ordinary activities extend to the whole of the

    685
    United Kingdom we shall make special arrangements for the other parts of the United Kingdom, He will be called in this country "the custodian of enemy property." In the first place we propose that every dividend which, if we were at peace, and would be payable and paid to a shareholder who is an enemy, that is to say, whose address is in Germany or Austria—every share of profits which would go to a similar destination, and in certain cases also any payment of interest—should not be left as it is now in the ordinary custody in which it finds itself with the risk that it might after all be transmitted to the enemy, but that all such dividends, interests, and share of profits, shall be paid to the custodian who will give a receipt for them and who will hold them, responsible, of course, to this House and to the Executive.
    I think that will be a provision which will give great satisfaction to some members of the public who, while, I am sure, quite sincerely anxious to pay their debts as time goes on in the ordinary way, none the less have felt a real concern lest in the case of a company, any dividend, or in the case of any other persons any share of profits, in discharging their own obligations, they might not quite unwittingly provide valuable aid to our enemy. So far as those provisions are concerned, they are compulsory provisions. They do not depend upon any application to the Court, or upon the will of the individual. It is an absolute condition so far as dividends and any share of profits are concerned that they are to be paid to the Custodian. It may be said, "Yes, but if you have got a company here which is controlled by directors who are Germans or Austrians, a company in which the predominating interest is not British but is hostile, what is the good of saying that the dividends or any share of profits are to be paid to the Custodian? Will not the flank of your Act of Parliament be turned by those who control such an enterprise deliberately refraining from declaring a dividend or distributing the profits?" In order to meet that which appears to us a criticism of real force and importance, we go on to provide that the Board of Trade official, the inspector or controller, who was appointed under the
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    original Bill, shall have the right in a proper case of directing what is the proper sum so to hand over to the Custodian, and shall even go to the length in a proper case of indicating what is the dividend that ought to be paid. That is the first part of our proposal so far as it relates to the Custodian.
    At first sight, it might appear that you could usefully extend this provision to every kind of payment which was going to be made to an enemy. I would point out to the House at once that there is one absolutely fatal objection to such a proposal. The only way in which you can enforce the provision I have just described is by imposing a stiff penalty upon people who fail to comply and treating it as a criminal offence to fail to comply with it. If you attempt to place in the Custodian every right and claim of every sort which a person, say, in Germany at this moment may have against British subjects, these two consequences will follow: First of all, you will be compelling a number of British subjects to find money to pay over to the Custodian, when the person to whom they owe the money could not compel them to pay so long as the War goes on; and, in the second place, you will be making it a criminal offence to fail to pay what might be regarded as a debt. It is not a criminal offence to fail to pay your debts. It may lead you to the Bankruptcy Court, but it will not land you in prison because you are unable to pay your debts. Therefore, it is necessary to limit our provisions so far as their compulsory character is concerned to the dividends, interest, and share of profits which are defined in the Bill.
    We propose that the Custodian shall also be at liberty to receive and shall indeed be required to receive other sorts of payment if application is made to the Court for the purpose, and we suggest that application might properly be made by any private person interested. There may be cases, for instance, where the debtor himself would be very glad to get rid of his liability by paying the money into such custody as guarantees absolutely that our enemy cannot be benefited. Again, an application might be made by the Custodian. A Government Department might get information that it was highly desirable to transfer such a sum into his custody. And, thirdly, application might

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    be made on behalf of the Board of Trade or some other body. That is not a compulsory provision such as the Provision I first described, and I think it necessarily involves an application to the Court. I am heartily sorry that it should be necessary to introduce machinery so elaborate, but I trust it will be possible by the rules which will be made to reduce the elaboration to a minimum. It is obviously necessary that you must have an order made vesting such property in the Custodian which defines what the property is, otherwise your Public Trustee will not know what property in this country is vested in him, and what property is not.
    I come to a third point. So far I have spoken of property which belongs to an enemy, meaning, of course, as one always does in this connection, those who are residing or carrying on business or who are in an enemy country. It has been pointed out to those who have been considering the drafting of this Bill that you do not necessarily go very far because you only transfer to the Custodian the interests of shareholders who in the books of the company registered here are on the face of it persons residing or carrying on business in the enemy country, because although, of course, there are a great number of Germans and Austrians on the Continent who do hold shares in British companies, it very often happens that they do not themselves appear upon the share register, but for purposes of obvious convenience have somebody in this country who is entered as the owner of the shares, but who, as a matter of fact, is a mere trustee or agent for collecting their dividends. We here are not concerned with the interests of trustees. We are aiming at stopping by every reasonable means the transmission of money, or the creation of credit which can be of advantage to the enemy country, which will catch those dividends which are paid to the mere trustees or agents in this country for those in the enemy country, as well as the dividends which are transmissible across the sea. We propose to do that by providing that everybody in this country who holds property in trust, or manages it, or collects proceeds in respect of it for an enemy—that is to say, for a person in Germany or Austria, and now Turkey—shall be required, under a penalty, to declare that
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    he does so in order that an application may then, in a proper case, be made for transferring his interests, although it stands in the name of a trustee here, to the Custodian, just as that would be done supposing there were no intervening trusts at all. That is the third point.
    I come now to the fourth point about the Custodian. I may be asked what is the effect of paying a sum of money, which would otherwise be due to an enemy, to the Custodian. Nobody wants to pay twice over, and before you can reasonably ask a man to pay something which belongs to the enemy to the Custodian he wants to be quite clear what his own position would be in view of the fact that he has paid it to some third person, and not the person to whom it was originally due. It is no part of our intention at all in this Bill to go in for indiscriminate confiscation. It is a matter of the greatest possible importance, both for our credit as a commercial nation and also in order that we may comply with the obvious rules of good faith and fairness which we set up for ourselves, that there should be nothing which in the least resembles indiscriminate confiscation involved in this Bill. What we are doing is this: we are preserving this property. We are not confiscating and, of course, we are not destroying it. We are preserving it to the end of the War, and what is going to happen to the property at the end of the War is a matter to be very properly decided at the end of the War. Consequently we have provided as regards the receipt this: The Custodian, when he receives property under the terms of our Bill, whether it be dividends, interest or share of profits, or any other kind of property to which I have referred, by giving his receipt will discharge the man who owed the money as between that man and his original creditor. Of course that will only operate in the Courts of this country—we can only legislate here for what is to happen here—and when the happy day comes when terms of peace can be discussed it will be for those who conduct those negotiations to secure that as we have preserved enemy property by this process we shall then get a proper arrangement by which it may be handed over to those to whom it belongs, on being satisfied that our interests in the

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    enemy country had been similarly dealt with, or deal with it otherwise, as the case may be.
    There is one further use to which we think it right to put the money which is thus collected by the Custodian. A great and practical difficulty has arisen in many cases since the War broke out, because there are many persons in this country—merchants, traders, shopkeepers and others—who have supplied goods on credit to those who at this time are enemies fighting against us. Probably all of us have had such cases brought to our notice. There is a very great practical difficulty in dealing with those cases. You obviously cannot allow people to go and help themselves to such property as seems to be lying about in the country belonging to the enemy whom they describe as their debtor. Obviously the creditor has to prove his debt in some way. There is at this moment a case before the Court of Appeal as to how far it is possible in the time of war to prove your claim against an enemy. In this Bill we have provided that when the Custodian has got in his own hands property which is paid to him as representing some given enemy creditor, that property shall, under the direction of the Court, be available, so far as it will go, to pay this debt or that debt which is owed by that enemy creditor. I think it will be possible by that means to work out in many cases what is undoubted justice, and to use the property which is now in this country, or dividends which are now in this country belonging to a particular German, for example, even though war is going on, in order to discharge that German's just debts to other persons in this country who are pressing for their money. So far, I have been describing as best I may our provisions with regard to the Custodian. That, the House will find, is the subject dealt with in Clauses 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5.
    I pass to the other principal provisions of the Bill, but before I do so perhaps the House will allow me to refer them to two of those provisions in the Clauses I have been trying to summarise. May I just read the Clause which deals with the receipt of the Custodian? We propose to provide in Clause 5, Sub-section (3), that
    "the receipt of the Custodian … for any sum paid to him under this Act shall be a good discharge to the person paying
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    the same as against the person, or body of persons, in respect of whom the sum was paid to the Custodian."
    The House will see that that effects a perfectly good discharge as regards the person in this country owing the debt. The other part of the Bill which I will read—I read this part with some trepidation—is the part which precedes the first Clause, that is the Preamble. This is a Bill of which the Preamble is a decidedly important part. We have so drawn the Preamble as to make it plain, I hope, not only to our own people, but also to neutrals who are watching to see how we are dealing with enemy rights, and to the enemy himself, what is the spirit in which we desire to deal with this matter. The Preamble which we suggest to the Bill is this:
    "Whereas it is expedient to make further provision for preventing the payment of money to … enemies, in contravention of the law relating to trading with the enemy, and for preserving, with a view to arrangements to be made at the conclusion of peace, such money and certain other property belonging to enemies."
    I hope that by putting that upon the face of the Bill as the introductory matter inspiring the Clauses which follow, it will be made entirely plain that we are not here engaged in any spirit of confiscation. On the contrary, our object is to preserve this property and to preserve it till the end of the War, in order that it may then be dealt with as is fair and just. So much for the Custodian.
    I must mention some other provisions of the Bill of a very far-reaching effect which will undoubtedly make the law against trading with the enemy more stringent than it is to-day. The first of these other provisions is contained in Clause 6, and that Clause is designed to deal with this situation. It has become quite clear in the course of these three months of war that though transactions between Germany—I will use Germany as an illustration—and this country are of course prohibited and are impossible so long as those transactions take place directly, none the less there is a very considerable transference of claims which Germans have against this country taking place from Germany to neutral countries. To give a simple illustration,

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    a German merchant in Hamburg may have a claim against a merchant in London. He cannot, of course, enforce his claim while the War is going on. Our Law Courts would not, I imagine, be open for any such purpose. Any attempt by the London merchant to pay would be an obvious breach of the law, and I am sure it is a thing which, speaking broadly, we may be confident our commercial community may be trusted not to do. But what happens is that there is some transfer or assignment of the claim which the German has got to a neutral country, it may be to a Dutchman, or an Italian, or a Swiss, and once the claim is assigned there is, in very many cases actually occurring, a claim put forward by a neutral against the London merchant for the payment of the debt. I think it is quite clear that we ought to do what we can to stop that, because if it is a proper policy to prevent it if it is done directly, it cannot possibly be a proper thing to allow if it is done indirectly. I do not represent that we shall succeed in stopping this altogether, but the Clause which we have inserted in the Bill will, I hope, go a very long way towards it. The same thing is true about bills of exchange. I hope the hon. Baronet (Sir F. Banbury) and others interested in the matter from the point of view of the City of London will examine closely our provision in that regard. Of course, it would be a most foolish policy for us to go and destroy the great reputation which Bills drawn upon London at this day possess. It would be a most idiotic proceeding to imagine that you were going to do some temporary good at the expense of the reputation of London as a place where, if a Bill is drawn upon it, it is as good as the Bank of England, and indistinguishable from the Bank of England. But at the same time if you find that a neutral bank is endeavouring to collect on a London acceptance which has been transferred for collection to a neutral bank since the War began by a holder who was an enemy, I cannot but think that that is a case which might very properly be dealt with as far as we can, and consequently we have a provision in the Clause to deal with that case too. That is the next considerable provision which I think the House will find is certainly likely to have a large and important effect.
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    I come to another thing. Here is another way in which experience has shown that the enemy is able, in spite of our law, to finance itself while the War is going on. There are a great many Germans and Austrians in Germany and Austria who hold shares in English companies. The same is true the other way, of course. There are a great number of English shareholders in certain German concerns. Gas companies, and other municipal companies in some of the big German towns are companies in which English shareholders have very large interests. But I am speaking of the reverse way. Of course, the enemy shareholder in an English company cannot sell his share to an Englishman. That would obviously be trading with the enemy, and it would be immediately found out and punished. But what he can do is to sell his share to a neutral. That is merely done by executing a transfer from the German as transferor to the neutral as transferee. That, of course, is not trading with the enemy, because it its trading between the enemy on the one hand and a neutral on the other, and the neutral having acquired that share—which may be for valuable consideration for ought I know, but it may be really as part of an underhand bargain—can present that share transfer to the secretary of the English company and, as the law now stands, I do not see how the secretary of the English company can refuse to alter the share register, and to enter as a shareholder the neutral name instead of the enemy name. It is a common provision certainly in the articles of English companies that upon the presentment of a properly executed transfer of shares the company undertakes and promises that it will transfer the share to the new name without asking questions. That is obviously a way in which German shareholders in English companies may be able to finance themselves in a time when we hope and believe there is a certain amount of financial stringency being felt across the water. Therefore we propose to provide in Clause 8 that no transfer made after the day this Bill is introduced by or on behalf of an enemy of any securities shall confer on the transferee any rights or remedies in respect thereof, and that no entry shall be made during the continuance of the War in the books of any company in the United Kingdom of a transfer of the share which

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    at the date named stood in the name of the enemy. By that means we believe we shall succeed in stopping what experience has shown during the last few months to be a very serious source of leakage at present quite unprovided for by the law.
    Mr. STEEL-MAITLAND: May I ask a question which has been put to me by some people in relation to English companies. Up to this date is there any question as to the validity of the transference of a share held by an enemy, either to a British subject or to a neutral?
    Sir J. SIMON: I will take first the case of a transfer since the War began, but before this date, from an enemy shareholder to a neutral in an English company. That transfer is quite unchallengeable. Of course, the neutral is entited to acquire it. It would be doing a very wrong thing, I think, regarding our duty towards neutrals, if we threw any question at all upon his title. Moreover, in the meantime he may have resold, and resold it to an Engishman. The other case put by the hon. Gentleman is the case of a transfer from an enemy shareholder, not to a neutral but to a British subject. If he will give me any such case since the War began I will undertake to prosecute the British subject.
    Now I come to another provision in the Bill which has been pressed upon us and which I think the House will see is reasonable in itself. A number of enterprises which are German in character—I only use the word German for convenience as meaning an enemy—have endeavoured to transform themselves in a very strange way since the War began, and they have done it by registering themselves at Somerset House in the form of a limited company.
    In some cases a new company has been formed with the express object of taking over a German enterprise which was not prepared to continue on its old footing. In other cases a company has been formed and nothing has been said as to the reason, but it has subsequently acquired such an interest. We propose to provide in Clause 9 that during the continuance of the present War, when application is made to register a new company, the Registrar of Joint Stock Companies
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    shall have filed with him a Statutory declaration made by a solicitor that the company is not formed for the purpose or with the intention of acquiring the whole or any part of the undertaking of an enemy. Or, of course, it may be, instead of that, that a licence has been given by the Board of Trade because in some special cases it is right that such a company should be formed. I think that will relieve the public mind from some very natural anxiety, because, certainly, my own correspondence, and I have had something to do with it, shows that a good many people are much exercised in their minds at what they believe to be the rapid creation of new legal entities—incorporated companies—which really represent in disguise enemy interests.
    I have only one other thing to mention, and it comes towards the end of the Bill. We propose, further, to extend the definition of trading with the enemy to cover cases which it does not now cover. I will mention two instances: It is an offence to trade with the enemy, and by principles which are familiar to the English law, if it is an offence to do a thing it is also an offence to attempt to do a thing. But such is the curious refinement of those who have developed our criminal law that it does not always follow that it is an offence to offer to do it. It all depends on whether your offer gets so near to the doing it that it may fairly be regarded as an offence. It is an offence to murder a man, it is an offence to attempt to murder a man, but I think it would be a strong proposition to say that always, in all circumstances, it is an offence in a lighthearted way to offer to murder a man. In dealing with trading with the enemy we are dealing with an emergency which makes it necessary that an offer to trade should be made into a crime. It happens sometimes that correspondence is available which shows that some discreditable individual or other, though not indeed trading or attempting to trade with an enemy, has been writing letters in which he angles a little for possibly illegal business. We should like to make it quite plain and beyond all doubt that anybody who attempts or offers to trade, or invites a tender, with an enemy comes within the purview of our law, and shall be no

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    less guilty than a person who succeeds in committing this most discreditable and most unpatriotic offence.
    There is another thing which has been found. This device has been hit upon by certain persons. It is an offence for a man in London to trade with a man in Hamburg, but cases have arisen in which we have, at any rate, had reason to suspect that a man in London has not been above acting as an intermediary in order to find some neutral to carry on trade with a man in Hamburg which was previously carried on by himself. If he does that, he is not trading with the enemy. He is acting as a sort of register office for the business, but in substance he is just inflicting the same wound on his country's interests as he would be inflicting if he traded with the enemy himself. We propose to proceed further and make that an offence, so that the person shall be held to be acting as an intermediary in such a case as that. These are the provisions of the Bill. I am afraid it has rather a formidable aspect for an emergency measure, consisting, as it does, of twelve Clauses, but it is the result of a great deal of consideration and conference, in which I would like to say I have been very much assisted, confidentially, by some hon. Members in all quarters of the House. It is a sincere attempt to strengthen the law relating to trading with the enemy, and to make it more effective than that which exists to-day, without, at the same time, either confiscating enemy property, on the one hand, or doing a great injury to British trade on the other.
    It is very easy for the public, and, I say with all respect, it is very easy for the newspapers, to insist that more stringent regulations should be made, and to suggest very stringent regulations; but, after all, we have to think about more things than one, and it is possible to make regulations so stringent and severe that in the end, when applied all the way round, you would do as much damage to this country as to the enemy. We have endeavoured to carry our law up to the extreme limit of what can be done without damaging our own interests and industries. I have only to say, in conclusion, that I believe most of the provisions of this Bill—not all of them—could have been effected by Proclamation
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    without coming to the House of Commons for express permission, because the powers under the previous Trading with the Enemy Bill are very wide. I did not think it right to amend the law by Proclamation further than was necessary since Parliament was sitting, because I fully realise that the public interest in this subject is very great, and that it is inspired by sincere patriotic feeling. For my part, I think our object should be not indeed to harry and worry every innocent German or Austrian who happens to be living in our country, but to make it our business by every means in our power that the trade they and we carry on shall not, by any possibility, result in adding to the financial strength of the enemy with which we are at war. That result will be made more perfectly clear by this Bill than by the Bill we have already passed.
    2.0 P.M.
    Mr. MORTON: Will the right hon. and learned Gentleman tell the House the effect of Sub-section (3) of Clause 12 as to Proclamation?
    Sir J. SIMON: It means that, in view of the facts and the experience we have had, we needed to modify the regulations several times; and that, in view of the fact that Parliament might not be continuously sitting, it is necessary to make it quite clear that in legislating here that does not limit the right to deal by Proclamation, which was given in the earlier Bill, to make more offences criminal. It does not, on the other hand, limit the right of the Executive in a given case to licence a particular transaction which would otherwise be criminal. It is in order to preserve the necessary elasticity which might be thought to be jeopardised by the fact of our introducing this Bill.
    Mr. STEEL-MAITLAND: I wish, in the first place, to express to my hon. Friends that they need not be deterred from supporting this Bill on account of its formidable aspect. The only commentary that could be made on the subject is that it might have been better if this Bill could have been introduced a little earlier, if possible. But we know and recognise the difficulties there may have been in the way. I am sure everyone will realise the great difficulty of dealing with this subject. In the first place, there are delicate

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    matters involved in connection with the industrial and financial interests of the community; and, secondly, the principle which the Attorney-General has laid down is one in which everyone will concur, namely, that there is no wish to deal any blow at any individual trader, but rather the one main object throughout is to safeguard the full interests of this country and to protect the resources of the country in this emergency. There are some points in the Bill which I am quite certain many of the trading community will welcome with the greatest thankfulness. It has no doubt been the experience of many. It was been my own experience. One or two firms which have been speaking to me on the subject have themselves expressed a wish from time to time that they should pay the debts which are due to enemy firms trading in this country, and at the same time they could not do so with safety not knowing where the money so paid will go. In one given instance, which I merely give as an instance, a blank refusal was given to pay the debt, but at the same time a special account was opened with the bank in a special name and the money representing the debt was paid into it.
    The firm that did that took the risk of what I think was then an illegal refusal to pay a debt, and I think that their action was probably justified in the light of the Bill which has just been brought in. In the second place, I am quite sure that it is an absolutely necessary provision to put the onus on the individual to disclose whether he is acting as a trustee for an enemy holder or not, and there has been a great deal of anxiety on that score. I have been through the list of shareholders of a number of companies the trading of which has been in question, and that was a point of very great difficulty to all of us, and we were exceedingly anxious that the onus should be put upon them, because it seemed quite impossible to attain the object of the Bill otherwise. I would now put, quite briefly, one or two points, for the consideration of the Attorney-General, and not wishing in any way to be antagonistic. The first is whether it would not be worth the consideration of the Attorney-General to make the Bill retrospective in one or two ways. To make measures retrospective more than is possible generally is an
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    enterprise which creates greater disadvantage than advantage, so that caution should be used from the outset. But I think that it is worth consideration in regard to one or two points. I am not sure whether it would not be advisable to have placed under the charge of the Custodian all moneys already paid into the account of an enemy company from the date of the declaration of War up to the date that the Bill is brought in. If I am in error, perhaps the Attorney-General will correct me, because I only got the Bill late last night and I had very little time to consider it. I have consulted beforehand with some friends of mine, who, I know, were in consultation with him on this side of the House, but owing to the lateness of the Bill I have not been able to consider it as fully as I could wish.
    Sir J. SIMON: I do not want to interrupt the hon. Member, but I really do not quite follow, and I must follow if I am to take advantage of his suggestion. Of course, "enemy" in this connection means throughout, as the hon. Gentleman knows quite well, persons or bodies of persons resident or carrying on business in a country with which His Majesty is for the time being at war, and necessarily so, because it is transmitting to that country, or creating credits for that country, which assist that enemy. When the hon. Member says "enemy company," does he mean a company registered in this country which has got, let us say, a number of directors who are German subjects?
    Mr. STEEL-MAITLAND: Yes, I mean a company it may be registered in this country and where—let us put the strongest case—the bulk of the control of the company is quite without question in the hands of individuals who are enemies though the "persona" of the company is English.
    Sir J. SIMON: Then what is the suggestion?
    Mr. STEEL-MAITLAND: That power might be taken in those cases for moneys standing to the credit or paid to the credit to be under the control of the Custodian. There are two other points as to which I want to ask. The first is this: Suppose that a company is wound up, would there be any power for the Custodian or any other person to insist on its

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    being carried on? There are certain products made in this country which are of rather vital importance. Suppose it were wished to continue carrying on a company which may be English but which is under German control, would it be possible to arrange for that company to be carried on?
    Sir J. SIMON: The hon. Member will forgive me interrupting him again. The point which he raises is an important point. It is not only provided for, but the provision is already being taken advantage of in one case. It is in the original Bill which has been law for the last two months. It provides that where it appears to the Board of Trade, in reference to any company, that the control or management of that company has been or is likely to be so affected by the state of war as to prejudice the effective continuance of its trade, and that it is in the public interest that the trade should be carried on, the Board of Trade have power to take control of it. That has actually been done in the case of the manufacture, in the North of England, of an extremely important material, in a case in which it would be most prejudicial to one of our great industries should that manufacture cease.
    Mr. STEEL-MAITLAND: I apologise to the right hon. Gentleman. I was talking the matter over with some of my business friends and they omitted to call my attention to that. There is only one other point, and that is with regard to continuous contracts. It is not absolutely material to this Bill, but is connected with it. I will put a case, not from the legal point of view, but from the point of view of the actual business men concerned in matters of the kind Say that an English firm has a contract with a railway company or other industrial entity in this country. That contract is to be carried out by instalments. One part is to be done this year, another next year, and another in the third year, and it may run on for a number of years. They sub-contract with a German firm—shall we say a company actually in Germany, not merely a British company with German shareholders—for portion of the work. Obviously while we are at war that German firm cannot carry
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    out work in this country. What happens? The English firm which has undertaken this contract at the start is placed in a position of great difficulty. If it goes ahead and wishes to make fresh arrangements, and then peace is declared, it is afraid that the original contract might then be operative, as it is made for periods which may be subsequent to peace bring declared. I have been asked to put that point, and if the Attorney-General can reassure me upon it, it will save anxiety on the part of some people who are at this moment wondering what is their position with regard to contracts of the kind.
    Sir CLIFFORD CORY: I should like to say a few words on this Bill, in no hostile spirit, but rather by way of criticism and suggestion. There is much anxiety amongst traders in this country in regard to this question, which has been dealt with in a way rather disturbing to their interests. If this Bill were amended in certain directions it might have the effect of preventing certain disadvantageous results in the future. In regard to the provision which was made in September, and which gave control and power to realise assets in German and Austrian banks in this-country, it is known in the City that declarations were made by neutral subjects stating that certain assets had been transferred to them before the War broke out, and those securities have been in some cases given to those transferees; otherwise, they would have been available for the payment of debts due to British creditors if they had not been parted with in that way. I have no doubt-that the learned Attorney-General is aware that they found their way back through neutral subjects into Germany. A great deal of difficulty has arisen with regard to the traders in this country getting their debts paid out of assets belonging to German subjects in this country. The Registrar of joint-stock companies does not seem to have done his duty. In Section 274 of the Companies Consolidation Act (1908) it is laid down that any foreign company doing business in this country shall register itself, and the penalty for not doing that is £50, and £5 a day so long as the offence continues.
    The Registrar does not seem to think that it was his duty to insist on that being carried out. A letter was addressed to

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    him by a firm of solicitors on the subject, and the Registrar replied that it did not fall within his province to do other, under the Section, than to register such papers as might be presented for that purpose; but if his attention were directed to any company who failed to comply with this Section, he would endeavour to secure compliance with it. It is a curious thing that a private individual or company was under the necessity of bringing before the Registrar such a question in regard to his duty. The traders of England are very much prejudiced by these companies not being registered here, and they are in the position that, in order to get debts paid, they have to issue a writ and get judgment. The consequence is that the companies which have not been registered in this country cannot have a writ issued against them, and can only be reached through diplomatic channels. In as much as the War has broken out, the ordinary diplomatic channels are no longer available, and there is no way of getting a writ served and of obtaining ultimate judgment. In Scotland, I understand that the law is very much more favourable to the trader than it is to the trader in this country. In Scotland, the assets can be arrested and judgment obtained afterwards. In this country it seems to be impossible to obtain payment of debts of this description. Clause 5 of the Bill provides that
    "The property held by the Custodian under this Act shall not be liable to be attached or otherwise taken in execution, but the Custodian may, if so authorised by an order of the High Court, or a judge by whose order any property belonging to an enemy was vested in the Custodian under this Act, or of any Court in which judgment has been recovered against an enemy, pay out of the property paid to him in respect of that enemy any debts due by that enemy and specified in the order."
    But the difficulty of the English trader is that he cannot get judgment; there is no process by which he can obtain judgment. My suggestion to the Attorney-General is that some Clause should be inserted in the Bill under which the English trader would be in a position to serve a writ and get judgment. Otherwise, it is not a bit of good, so far as he is concerned, that the Custodian should be collecting all these
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    moneys due to enemy firms if he has no means of getting his debts paid out of them.
    The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the BOARD of TRADE (Mr. J. M. Robertson): Will the hon. Member look at the end of Clause 4?
    Sir C. CORY: Clause 4, giving power to vest enemy property in the Custodian, says:—
    "The High Court, or a judge thereof, may, on the application in accordance with the rules of Court of any person who appears to the Court to be interested … vest in the Custodian any property real or personal"—
    Mr. ROBERTSON: The words to which I refer to are
    "and may by the order confer on the Custodian such powers of selling, managing and otherwise dealing with the property as to the Court or judge may seem proper."
    Sir C. CORY: But the question I should like to put to my hon. Friend is, whether the Custodian, without a judgment, would part with assets in this country belonging to alien enemies?
    Mr. ROBERTSON: You must get judgment.
    Sir C. CORY: Yes; that is what I said. A writ would have to be served, and there are no means, so far as I am advised, by which one can serve a writ in order to-get judgment. That is why I want a special Clause inserted in the Bill to obviate that difficulty. In Scotland they have powers which I submit ought to be obtained in England. Also in America there are powers and there was a case the other day against the Hamburg-American Steamship Company, in which judgment was obtained in New York. Ours seems to be the only country in which one is not able to do that. The suggestion is made that the difficulty might be overcome by the trader availing himself of the scheme which the Government brought forward to lend money to traders who have large sums owing to them by enemy traders; but the English trader in this country does not want a loan, with the expenses of interest and commission, bill stamps, and things of that sort.

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    He proposes to get these debts paid in the ordinary way. I do not know whether it would be possible for the Government to put a Clause in the Bill which would put the Custodian or Controller in much the same position as a receiver in bankruptcy, and in which he could collect the assets belonging to the alien enemy—and with the proceeds liquidate debts due to English traders. In the cases of acceptances there would be no difficulty of proof, because the acceptance itself is proof of debt. I know this would be a great relief to traders throughout the country, and I hope some Clause will be put in the Bill by which creditors will be able to serve writs and get judgment and payment of the debts due to them.
    Mr. CAVE: I want to add a few words which will be mainly in the direction of recommending the extension of the Bill, which I entirely welcome. In regard to the branches of foreign firms, the House knows that where a foreign firm has a branch in this country, that branch stands upon a better footing than the principal firm abroad, and great difficulties arise, and have arisen, in dealing with cases of that kind. I should like it made clear in the Bill that the branches of foreign firms stand on exactly the same footing as the principal firms; otherwise a great deal of money might find its way to a hostile country. Clause 2 of the Bill vests in the Custodian dividends and interests only, but I am one of those who think that the Clause might go further and vest in the Custodian the debts owing to an enemy trader. The effect of that would be that the money would be available for the payment of enemies' debts in this country. It is very-desirable to obtain that, and the effect might be to wind up a good many outstanding liabilities which at present cannot be satisfied in any way. There is nothing in the Bill which has that effect.
    Mr. WATT: Did not the Attorney-General say there was?
    Mr. CAVE: On the contrary, I think the Attorney-General said that could not be done. The right hon. Gentleman said that if you provided for the vesting of debts in the Custodian, the effect might be that it would be a criminal act not to pay the debts. I do not think that need be so. The only effect of the change I suggest
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    would be to make the Custodian the creditor instead of the foreign enemy, and therefore the Custodian would only have the civil remedies for the recovery of debt, and no question of the criminal law would arise. I think that meets the objection of the Government to the proposal which I am supporting. I hope the matter will be reconsidered, because it really is much more important to deal with these capital debts, such as an account in a bank, or a business liability which may be of a large amount, than to deal with only small sums, which may come in by way of dividend.
    The next point to which I wish to refer is in reference to Clause 6, which avoids transfers or shares and securities and liabilities, but only from to-day or yesterday. I do think that to some extent that provision might without injustice be made retrospective, because we all know that transfers have been made during the last three months by alien enemies of shares and property in this country. I do not in the least want to shake the title of persons who have taken transfers in good faith and for value. I think, whatever the motive of the enemy may have been, those transfers ought to stand, even although the proceeds and consideration sometimes may have gone abroad. While we cannot shake the title of persons who gave value, I think it would not be unfair to put upon those who have taken transfers and shares and securities from alien enemies the burden of proving that they have acted in good faith and have given value. If you did that the person who purchased those shares in good faith would not have the least difficulty in showing that that was so, and his title would stand. You would be able, however, to look into the matter, and find out whether there are not such cases, and I believe there are many cases of transfers which have been made by the enemy, not for value, although value may appear on the document, but did not really pass, and those transfers, it seems to me, ought to be voided. There is a precedent for what I am suggesting. Under the Bankruptcy Acts settlements made within a certain time before bankruptcy are void unless it is shown that they are made in good faith, and for value. You may apply the analogy of that case to this measure, and make the same provision with regard to transfers since the War broke out.

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    The only other point I desire to make is this. The Bill does not deal with contracts. There are, of course, many continuing contracts with enemy firms abroad. The Bill does not begin to deal with matters of that kind, and I know it is very difficult indeed to deal with them. Still it is true that contracts are running that cannot be performed and that breaches are committed, of necessity, by one of the contracting parties—the one in this country. Damages may be running on, and interest may be running on, but the contracting party has no remedy. He cannot perform his contract, because it is contrary to law to do so. I think some provision might be made for dealing with that particular case, although I know it is very hard to do so. Many proposals have been made, and I have no doubt the hon. Gentleman has heard of many. I hope before the Bill comes on in Committee that the Government will reconsider that point, and endeavour to make provision, either by suspending such liabilities, or by transferring them to custodians or to some controller or in some other way, so that no penalty may fall upon Englishmen for failing to perform a contract. Those are the points I ask the Government to consider.
    Mr. MORTON: I do not rise for the purpose of opposing the Second Reading of this Bill in any shape or form whatever. On the contrary, I am glad to know that in London and throughout the country we have the Government to carry on the business of the country. I am glad to know also that in the City of London, which may be said to be a Tory place, entire satisfaction is expressed in favour of the way in which the present Government is carrying out the business of the country. I mention that because I want to ask the Government to do something for the City of London. I propose to mention two cases which, if I get the opportunity, I hope to bring before the Committee in the shape of Amendments. One is with regard to insurance companies, and that applies not only to the City of London but to the whole of the country, because there are insurance offices in other places besides the City, which have treaties or contracts in regard to reinsurance and with Germany principally. They are in this difficulty at the present moment, and this is where they want help, that they do not know what
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    they have to do under those contracts, and whether they are alive or not, and they want to have it made certain what their position really is. We know that the Trading with the Enemy Act and the Proclamations have put us all under the most severe provisions as to penalties in case we trade with or assist the enemy in any way whatever. I quite agree with that, but the question is, where a difficulty arises, whether Parliament ought to give us the necessary relief so that we cannot be punished for obeying the law of the land as we might be in cases which I could mention, and which I hope to bring before the Committee. With regard to the insurance companies, I need not dwell on the point as I hope to have the opportunity of going into it in Committee. I did take the opportunity of consulting the Attorney-General, and I have consulted those whom he advised me to consult. I hope, therefore, that the matter will meet with his attention on that ground if on no other.
    The other case which I wish to mention is with regard to paving contracts in the City of London. The customary procedure in the City with regard to asphalt paving has been to make contracts, not only for laying the paving, but also for keeping it in repair, and sometimes for as long as fourteen years. The corporation pays so much per square yard per annum. We have a case at present, and that is why our attention has been drawn to the matter, where we owe about six or seven hundred pounds to a company which we now know is practically German. Besides that we have a contract which will run for seven years amounting to £1,400 per year, and the question is, what are we to do? We write to the Government, and they do not give us any assistance. We do not know whether we ought to pay the money, or whether we ought to allow the work mentioned in the contract to be carried on. I was glad that the Government decided to bring in this Bill, and I hope that Amendments will be inserted in Committee which will make quite clear the position of the contractor in the cases I have mentioned.
    This is what the corporation desires—that the definition of "enemy character" should be extended so as to include companies and firms, the directors and shareholders of which are predominantly

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    German, or resident or carrying on business or trading in any country with which His Majesty is for the time being at war, notwithstanding that such companies are registered in this country. This registration of companies in this country is one of the difficulties with which we have to deal. It is practically a sham. They are no more British companies than anything else outside Britain that you might mention. The corporation also desires His Majesty's Government to obtain power for the determination of contracts with companies for the supply of goods imported from any country with which this country is at war, or manufactured, or partly manufactured, in any such hostile country, and for the determination of contracts with companies which are, or were, on and subsequently to the 1st January, 1914, under the management of, or a majority of, whose directors or shareholders are, or were, during the said period, born subjects of any such hostile countries. If that were done, a committee of the corporation think that it would give some relief without inflicting any injustice upon anybody.
    We have no sort of ill-feeling against the company to which I have referred. If it were not for the War, we should only be too pleased to continue the contract, and to pay them as speedily as possible, as we have always done. But we say that we ought, in the first place, to know exactly what the law is, and that, as the Trading with the Enemy Act is to be strengthened, we ought to be shown definitely what we are to do to relieve ourselves of any claim for damages or compensation that might be brought against us after the War. I mention these matters because I intend to put down Amendments dealing with them in Committee. As we are most anxious to be loyal, not only to the King, but to the Government, and to do all we can to assist them in carrying out the duties they have to perform, I hope the Government will give us their assistance in putting these matters right, bearing in mind that no party is opposing them, but that we are all endeavouring to work together to carry on the business of the country in the best possible way.
    Mr. WATSON RUTHERFORD: Our only object is to make this Bill as good a
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    Bill as possible, and I hope the Government will believe that, in any remarks I may make, that is the object I have at heart. My objection to this Bill is that it is not severe enough, that it is not strong enough, and that it does not go far enough. I notice in the Press this morning that the Attorney-General has been having a serious struggle in the Court of Appeal as to the meaning of the words "alien enemy." I certainly think that if, instead of the words that are in the recital of the Bill, there was some proper definition as to what is an "alien enemy" it would prevent any difficulty of that description. If we are obliged to take "alien enemy," as defined here, as a person resident or carrying on business in a country which is at war with us, I can see perfectly clearly that a considerable number of English firms and persons would come within the definition. We have a number of companies in England consisting of English shareholders and whose money is English which are operating to-day in Germany and Austria-Hungary. I myself know of two or three of these companies. It would be absurd immediately to put these companies into the category of enemies of this country. It is a ridiculous position in which they should find their contracts and their money. Yesterday the Attorney-General was endeavouring to argue that the Act of which this Bill is an Amendment would apply, and that these companies would be alien enemies provided they had any residence or any business in a country which was at war with us. I trust that the Government, especially now that they have already got into serious difficulty in the Law Courts in regard to the definition of "alien enemy," will carefully consider this point. I think we ought to have in Committee a Clause inserted defining the term in such a manner that there can be no possible mistake. The object of this Bill ought to be to protect British subjects, British capital, and British money, and at the same time to prevent, during the War, pecuniary and other advantages getting into the hands of hostile countries. If that is properly done, there is no reason at all why British firms or British companies should be embarrassed or placed in a wrong position with regard to their business.

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    I also take up the same point as my hon. Friend the Member for Kingston (Mr. Cave). Clause 2, which is really the principal operative part of the Bill, provides that any sum of money which is owing for dividends, interests, or share of profits by an alien enemy, shall be paid over to and shall at once vest in this new official. Why should not any sum of money due from an alien enemy be vested in the Custodian? Why should it be limited merely to dividends, interest, or share of profits? Why should not the proceeds of goods of an alien enemy be paid over to the Custodian? Why should not the shares of an alien enemy in any company or concern in England at once vest in the Custodian? Why should not securities or any of these things, if they are sold or consigned for sale? There are quantities of goods consigned for sale from enemy countries. In a large number of cases they were consigned before the War, and have arrived since the War, and are to-day in a position of considerable difficulty. I ventured last night to refer to a concrete case of the kind. It may illustrate the matter just in a moment or two to put it before the House. There were £200,000 worth of sultana raisins sent from Smyrna before the War. That cargo arrived at Liverpool, and has been seized at Liverpool by the Customs, who will not allow the brokers to realise the cargo. The brokers have advanced money upon these sultanas, and there is nobody to take charge of the sultanas or to realise them There is nobody to pay the freight and charges, or to repay the advances and interest that have been made. I suggest that this Custodian whom it is proposed to appoint should be given charge of these matters. He is the right person to take possession of the whole of that cargo, to pay whatever is required to be paid to British subjects out of it, and to keep the balance of the money, under the terms of this Act, until the War is over, in order that it then may be properly ascertained what should be done.
    This state of affairs which has arisen is, I would point out, a very serious one in another respect, because some considerable quantity of these sultanas had been sold before arrival, and various firms up and down the country want them for the purpose of the Christmas puddings and the season's festivities. A ship like that
    710
    which leaves the country of an alien enemy before the War is perfectly bonâ fide. It happens to arrive here after the War, and has got itself into this remarkable state of difficulty. Surely it should suggest itself, when we are passing an Act relating to these matters—to have the custody of property and other things coming from alien enemies—that a Bill like this would have been drafted so as to enable it to deal with the case. What I ask, therefore, is: Why should the words "by way of dividends, interest or share of profits" be inserted? Why should the words not be, "any sum of money that becomes payable to an alien enemy"? Why should not these be taken possession of by the Custodian? There may be capital moneys, there may be debts, there may be money to the extent of hundreds of thousands, there may be commissions or fees, there may, and there are to my own knowledge, large sums of money as royalties on patents due to-day to alien enemies, every penny of which, I suggest, ought to be taken possession of by this Custodian under the terms of this Bill. Again I ask: Why should the Custodian take possession of the dividends and leave out the shares? Some shares are more important than the dividends which are declared upon them. Why should not all shares which belong to alien enemies vest automatically in this Custodian? Why include interest and not the loans? According to Sub-section (4) it has to include interest on the loans. Why not the loan itself? Why leave out the principal, or instalments of principal, while taking great pains to collect the interest? I see that the profits of any business are to be included. Why include the profits and leave out the business and the capital that is in the business?
    I respectfully suggest to the Law Officers of the Crown and to His Majesty's Government that they ought to make a clean sweep in this matter. The mere fact that we are here to-day to consider a Bill of twelve Clauses, which is an Amending Bill itself to an Act which we only passed two or three weeks ago, suggests that the original Act was very defective, and I think that as soon as the eyes of the Law Officers of the Crown are open to the real facts, and that they find that there are hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of

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    securities and other things of the sort which somebody ought to take care of, they will have to come here again for further Amendments if they do not alter this Bill now and make it wide enough. They will require a further Amending Bill to do what even Turkey—as well as Germany and Austria-Hungary have done long since—take possession of all the property they can lay their hands upon, real and personal, belonging to alien enemies. I look at Clause 5. I find that it contains no power to the Custodian to settle accounts with a British subject, or to pay over to such British subject any amount due to him. That is a very serious matter. There are all kinds of sums of money which the Custodian ought to take possession of, and there will be perfectly legitimate claims on the part of certain British people against those moneys; if the Custodian is to take possession of the whole of the capital and it is to be kept until the end of the War, and there is to be no settlement with British subjects, the Bill is thus far defective. It ought to contain power for the Custodian to ascertain what amounts are properly due to any British subject who do not happen to be alien enemies because, according to the Attorney-General British subjects can be alien enemies if they like—those, I say, who are not alien enemies ought to have their due. I pass to Clause 6—
    Sir J. SIMON: If the hon. Gentleman will look at Sub-section (2) of Clause 5 he will see that we have defined it, so far as we could, to do what he has just asked to be done. The Clause provides that money in the hands of the Custodian may, under certain circumstances, be available to pay a debt due.
    Mr. RUTHERFORD: I am obliged to the right hon. Gentleman for pointing out the extent to which that might be done. But I suggest that the Custodian should have ampler powers, the same as an official receiver, to discharge the dues, whatever they may be, and see to the rights of any British subject, without any order of the Court whatever.. The Clause which the right hon. Gentleman has pointed out does in one way enable some of these things to be done, but the words
    712
    are: "if so authorised by an order of the High Court or a judge." Surely there ought to be no occasion for that in a case like that to which I have referred. Advances were made in respect to that cargo of sultanas long before the War to the owners of those sultanas. The Custodian ought to be able to receive the sultanas, realise them, pay the freight and the various charges, and the advances and interest, and simply keep the balance. No one should have to go to the High Court or any other Court in order to carry out a simple commercial transaction which is done in business every day. I will refer to Clause 6. I find there that
    "No person shall by virtue of any transfer or assignment of any negotiable instrument, debt … or delivery of any coupon or other security transferable by delivery, or transfer of any other obligation … have any rights or remedies …."
    I looked at that very carefully to see whether it applied to the transfer of shares and to the transfer of stock, and I find it does not. It simply applies to the transfer of a negotiable instrument. It says, "or other chose in action or delivery of any coupon or other security transferable by delivery, or transfer of any other obligation." Now what has happened? There are thousands of cases in the City of London where alien enemies since the outbreak of War have transferred shares in public companies into the names of neutral banks. There are a number of neutral banks with branches in London. It would not do in a Debate of this kind to give the names, because we do not want to hold up any bank to public criticism. These transfers may have been perfectly bonâ fide, but it is a very remarkable thing that they have been made to the extent of hundreds of thousands of pounds within the last few weeks, and before this Bill was brought forward. The hon. and learned Member for Kingston pointed out that in his judgment the onus ought to be thrown upon all those people to show that the transfer was done for valuable considerations and was bonâ fide. I would emphasise the argument of my hon. and learned Friend. I fail to see any reply to it. I think, in Clause 6, stocks and shares and debentures should be put in as well as mere securities transferable by delivery,

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    I think in the latter part of that Clause where the 19th of November is conditioned as the date where such assignment should be made, that in any assignment or transfer so transferred, made or registered from the 3rd August down to the 19th November the onus of the proof should be put upon the transferee and assignee to show it is bonâ fide.
    3.0 P.M
    It is common knowledge that alien enemies have been protecting themselves to the best of their ability; and you cannot blame them; they are business men, and when they are afraid that somehow or other our Government will try and get hold of their shares and their interest in these companies we can hardly blame them for trying to preserve their own property, by causing these transfers to be registered. All we ask is that some effort should be made to stop all transfers, including shares, to the 19th of November, and, at the same time, to put upon the transferee proof of the bona fides of transfers made after the declaration of War. I am sorry to see that some other Clauses of the Bill seem to me to be similarly very inefficient. When I look at Clause 7 I find that where any coupon or other securities are presented for payment to any company, and the company believe it is presented on behalf of an enemy since the 18th of November, they can pay the money into Court, and I ask myself why should not the Custodian have the money. What is the use of our passing an Act like this appointing an official to take charge of this alien money if we give the right under Clause 7 to have it paid into Court? I should have thought a simple plan would be to say, "We appoint a Custodian and we give him ample powers, and the same sort of powers that the Public Trustee has got." We allow him to settle accounts for everybody interested in any of those matters, and we are now passing an Act of Parliament that every particle of real and personal property of every kind and description in the country, including shares or everything else from and after this date is to be vested in that Custodian, and that as regards transfers made since the beginning of war, the onus of proof is to be thrown upon the persons claiming them to show the transaction is bonâ fide. That is the way, I
    714
    think, this Bill ought to have been prepared. I look at the Definition Clause at the end of Clause 8 and I find this:—
    "For the purposes of this Section the expression 'securities' includes any annuities, stock, shares and debentures or debenture stock issued by or on behalf of the Government."
    I ask myself why does it not include mortgages or shares. Why should not the word "securities," in fact, include all kinds of security? Why this definition at the end of Clause 8, cutting down the kind of securities to one or two definite things, instead of leaving it open so as to include every kind of security? I ventured to intervene in the discussion on the Courts Emergency (Powers) Bill. That Bill was about being passed sub silentio, and I took a great deal of trouble in connection with it, and felt it my duty to criticise it on account of the injustice which was going to be set up, and it was very considerably modified. We make these criticisms of this Bill this afternoon in no carping spirit. Our idea is to assist the Government to get the very best and clearest Bill they possibly can, and ought to get. Germany has seized, and goodness only knows what she is going to do with them, some millions of securities, shares, stocks, property, concessions, business interests of all kinds and descriptions belonging to British people. She seized them immediately the War broke out. She did not wait for three months or for amending Acts. Austria has done the same, and Turkey, twenty-four hours after the War, seized every mortal thing belonging to Englishmen, Scotsmen, and Irishmen, in the whole of her dominions in which such people had any interest. And here we have stood by and allowed these alien enemies to make all sorts of transfers and register them, and make it complicated and difficult to get at their shares and securities.
    We want a big fund here and to lay our hands upon everything we can. We do not want to confiscate this property as a matter of right, but I take the position to be this: We want to say to Germany, "You have confiscated millions of pounds worth of property of every kind and description belonging to British people. What are you going to do with it? Are you going to restore these people their money? If not, we have got hold of hundreds of thousands of pounds of German

    715
    money, and we are going to compensate our own people with it as far as it goes." That is the kind of position we should have. We ought to have ample powers in the clearest possible way in this document, and not to have to apply to the Courts for this, that, or the other, but to take possession, by a properly constituted official, of anything, real or personal, that there is in the United Kingdom, so that we can lay our hands upon the belongings of alien enemies in order to place ourselves in the best position to deal with the whole subject. It is in that spirit I venture to make these suggestions. Of course, if it were more convenient, I could put them down as Amendments to the Bill in Committee, but that may not be desirable, and it would probably occupy a very long time and would be, to some extent, a waste of time. I suggest to the representative of the Board of Trade that if they could deal in a practical shape with these points, and satisfy some of us that they were going to be dealt with in the Bill, we do not want to come here and make long speeches on Amendments. All we want to do is to try and make the Bill as strong and wide as possible, and see that it does not do any injustice to any British subject.
    Mr. ROBERTSON: I would like at this point to reply to the criticisms which have been put forward by various speakers. Most of the criticisms which have been made are practically Committee points. Even the hon. Member for the West Derby Division of Liverpool (Mr. Rutherford) admits that he could put all his objections to the Bill in the form of Amendments during the Committee stage. Nevertheless, I will reply to a few points, and this may save further discussion. The hon. Baronet the Member for St. Ives (Sir C. Cory) raised a point of practical importance when he argued that persons under this Bill would find it difficult to get judgment in the way we want to provide. That very difficulty of getting judgment against an alien enemy is now under the express consideration of the Attorney-General, who is drafting a new rule of Court to facilitate the machinery dealing with that question. I trust that that change will meet with the hon. Baronet's difficulty.
    Mr. WATT: Will it make it cheaper?
    Mr. ROBERTSON: It will make it as cheap as possible. It has been said that the registrar of companies only takes action on receiving a complaint, and it is suggested that he is not doing his duty. May I point out that it is only upon representations made to him that he can take any action, and it is only on information given that he can act, and he does act.
    Sir C. CORY: I gave as instances large companies whose names were in the London directory, and I thought the registrar might know that those companies were in existence here. When they are brought to his notice I think he should get them to comply with the Act.
    Mr. ROBERTSON: I think that is a Committee point. The hon. Baronet agreed with the hon. Member for West Derby who suggested that this Bill should go very much further and empower the Custodian to get hold of all forms of property. In this respect I only need to repeat what was said by my right hon. Friend in introducing this Bill. The Preamble explains clearly the object of the Bill, and there is no desire to harass or to ruin traders. The words of the Preamble are:—
    "For preserving, with a view to arrangements to be made at the conclusion of peace, such money and certain other property belonging to enemies."
    I think that clearly expresses the object of our proposals. Certainly the object is not to injure and ruin a number of traders belonging to the enemy, and this Bill is more of a preserving description. The statement made by the hon. Member for the West Derby Division as to what has been done in Germany goes far beyond the information that has reached the Government. I am not saying if such acts as he described have really taken place in the enemy's State, that in that case further action may not be necessary on our part. That, however, would be a Bill different in scope and object to the present measure, and all the hon. Member's Amendments would be carefully considered. At present it seems undesirable that any such legislation should be even contemplated until we have clearer evidence in regard to what the hon. Member has stated. The hon. Member for Sutherlandshire raised the question of contracts.
    Mr. MORTON: Running contracts.
    Mr. ROBERTSON: Yes, running contracts, and he desires that the state of the law should be cleared up on this point. I am sure that if my right hon. and learned Friend was replying he would simply advise the hon. Member to consult his legal advisers, and if the higher legal authorities here are likely to make such a reply the hon. Member will scarcely expect that I should attempt to indicate what is the state of the law in regard to contracts with the enemy during the contingency of war.
    Mr. MORTON: My argument was that having done that which we are quite willing to obey, it is now sought to get out of the penalties in another way.
    Mr. ROBERTSON: Those who are put under heavy penalties for bidding them to trade with the enemy can plead that law. In this matter, however, I am afraid I may be trenching on the ground of the lawyers, and I prefer to leave the matter as I have already stated. With regard to the suggestion that this Bill should deal with contracts, it seems to me that any measure that is intended to clear up or to define the state of the law of contract with regard to such cases as have been put by hon. Members to-day would be better dealt with in another measure. From a legal point of view, I think a second measure would be more preferable than attempting to amend the present Bill. These answers seem all that it is necessary for me to give, and as they are only Committee points which have been raised I hope the House, will now agree to allow the Bill to be read a second time.
    Mr. HENRY TERRELL (indistinctly heard): I would like to know what is meant by Clause 4 where it says:—
    "(1)The High Court or a judge thereof may, on the application in accordance with rules of Court of any person who appears to the Court to be interested."
    Interested in what? Does it mean interested in the real or personal property?
    Mr. ROBERTSON: In the property dealt with in that particular case.
    Mr. TERRELL: That is what I thought. One of the objects of this Bill is to deal with the case of debtors who have left the country, leaving property in this country
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    and leaving nobody responsible for that property. There have been several cases in the Courts where applications have been made to appoint a Receiver, and the Courts have always said, "We cannot appoint a Receiver. You allege yourself to be a creditor. You must bring the debtor here. Then we will deal with the question. In the meantime, we cannot touch his property." It is intended by this Section, I take it, to deal with a case of that kind, but the Section does not deal with it, because it is perfectly clear that a creditor, or a person alleging himself to be a creditor, is not a person interested in the real or personal property of his debtor. He has no interest in his real or personal property until he gets a judgment against him. Therefore, under this Section, no creditor or person alleging himself to be a creditor of an alien enemy who has left property in this country and gone to Germany or Austria could apply to the Court, nor would the Court on any such application have power to act. That being the real object of the Section, I venture to suggest to the Government that it should be very carefully considered so as to enable a creditor to take action in a case of that kind.
    A great deal of misapprehension, and I think confusion, has arisen by the user of the expression "alien enemy." The Bill does not use the expression "alien enemy" at all, and naturally, because the Bill does not deal with "alien enemies." The Bill really deals with that class of person which is known to jurists as "a person possessing trade domicile in war"—that is to say, a person who carries on business in an enemy country. Supposing an Englishman is to-day carrying on under a licence of the German Government business in Berlin, he is not an alien enemy, but he is a person who has a German trade domicile in war, and he is a person whose profits in business are intended to be affected by this Bill. The object of this Bill is to prevent profits of a business going from this country so as to become taxable in an enemy country by an enemy Government. If you have an Englishman carrying on business in Germany his profits are taxable by the German Government. They may take by way of taxation 20s. in the £, that is, take the whole of his profits. We want to prevent any of those profits,

    719
    or any of the money which makes up those profits, being taken from this country to Germany, where they may be taxed. That is why the Bill does not speak of "alien enemies." It speaks of "persons resident or carrying on business in any country with which His Majesty is for the time being at war." It is the profits of those persons taken over to Germany which we want to attach here.
    When it is suggested that you should give power here to the Custodian to take possession of the property of Germans who are resident in this country, a very much more serious question arises. It cannot surely be suggested that we should here do what I think has never been done in any war before, that we should take possession, by an officer appointed by this House or by the Courts, of every bit of property in this country possessed by Germans. There are thousands of Germans and Austrians living in this country. Are we going to appoint a Custodian to go into every one of their houses and take possession of their furniture, and, if not, where do you draw the line? Those persons are alien enemies, but so long as we permit them to reside here they are entitled to enjoy the property which they possess in this country. It would be wrong from an international point of view, and certainly from our own point of view, to say that we are going to appoint a person who can take possession of every bit of property possessed by the enemy. It is said that has been done by Turkey. It may or may not have been done by Turkey, I do not know, but that is no reason why we should follow such a bad example. It seems to me that this Bill does require in Committee very material criticism, and possibly very many alterations. The Bill was prepared in a great hurry, dealing with a very complex and complicated question, but if it is right to distinguish in this Bill the profits which are to be transferred to a person in Germany from the property held by alien enemies in this country, I do think that in Committee the Bill will require the serious attention of the Government.
    Sir J. WALTON: I welcome the introduction of this amending Bill because the previous Bill has certainly proved in many
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    respects to be most defective. I should have thought that the object of the Government Bill would have been to conserve and protect the interests of British creditors as against German debtors, and I cannot understand the Under-Secretary's reference to the object of the Bill being rather in the direction of some protection even to German debtors. I believe, if it were clearly ascertained, there is no question that for months prior to the outbreak of War the Germans pressed for the payment of all debts due to them from this country. On the other hand, British creditors of German debtors have not been as wide awake, and the balance at the outbreak of War was decidedly in favour of our German enemy as against this country. I should have thought the one object the Government ought to have in this legislation was to promote the obtaining by British creditors of prompt and full settlement of their claims against German debtors. In order to do this, it is not, as the last speaker has stated, that we desire to take possession of the whole of the property of Germans and Austrians resident in this country. All we desire to do is to take possession, not only of dividends, but also of the shares and of all the property belonging to German debtors who are not settling the just claims of British creditors in this country.
    I know a case in point, in which a German firm is constructing important works in this country, coal distillation works, upon the due completion of which the interests of a large manufacturing concern in this country very vitally depends. At the present moment progress of those works has been arrested. They are not being proceeded with, they will not be completed according to the time stated in the contract, and the British works, therefore, will not get the benefit of that completion. I say, unhesitatingly, that the receiver, or whoever is appointed, the trustee in which the dividends due to Germans ought to be vested, ought also to have vested in him that property to which I have referred, and which should be liable not only for any ordinary debts due from that German company, but also for any loss entailed upon the British company by the non-fulfilment of their contract. I have had the feeling that alien enemies resident in this country have been much too leniently dealt with.

    721
    I do hope that, in this commercial matter, all the interests of British creditors will be emphatically protected. I hope, too, that the Government will give due consideration between now and the Committee stage of this Bill to the various points which have been raised. I also hope that this Bill will not be rushed through Committee. We have not a great many legislative matters to consider at the present time, and there is no necessity whatsoever that these important measures should be rushed through as rapidly as they have been in the recent past. It will be the best economy of time, and in the best interests of this nation, that we should give ample time in Committee for the consideration of every Clause of this Bill. Do not let us have to find that another amending Bill is necessary within two or three months of this Bill being passed. I believe the Secretary for the Board of Trade is prepared to consider these points and to see that they are considered by the Government. I want this matter dealt with in a broad and comprehensive way. It is absurd to find that we cannot get judgment against a German debtor who has large assets and properties in this country, and the Government is bound, in the interests of British trade, to promote our being able to obtain such judgment at a very cheap cost. Indeed, I think that the official appointed by the Government, in whom is vested the property of an alien enemy, should also be empowered to discharge debts of British creditors on due proof being established, apart from any judgment of the High Courts of Justice or otherwise. I trust that this view of the matter will be taken into consideration by the Government. While I wish to do no injustice to any alien enemy, I think the first consideration of the Government should be, in the provisions of a measure like this, to protect the interests of the British trader, and not to show too much leniency towards an alien enemy.
    Mr. RAWLINSON: I think we ought to be very much obliged to the Government for introducing a Bill of this kind on so very important a matter. They might have done much of this by Proclamation, and it is largely to their credit that they have brought forward a Bill in the open House and given us an opportunity of discussing the matter
    722
    here, instead of doing it merely by Proclamation. This is an extraordinarily complicated and very difficult question. It deals with a very difficult Act of Parliament, and it is a very difficult Bill to follow. I suggest that not only Members, but people outside the House, should read very carefully, if possible, the extraordinarily clear speech of the Attorney-General on the Bill to-day. I think when they have read that, and when they have examined the Bill, we shall get a good many suggestions from outside which will probably be of great assistance to us in dealing with the question. I have gone carefully through the Bill, having, by the courtesy of the Government, seen a copy in advance, and, taking the lines on which the Bill is drafted, I do not see so many Committee points are likely to arise as some of my hon. Friends seem to suggest. This is not a Bill primarily to deal with contracts, running or not running. The object of the Bill is to prevent money going into Germany or Austria at the present time—to prevent money going there which will be of use to the enemy during the War. That is a very difficult object indeed to secure.
    As my hon. and learned Friend said just now, it must be borne in mind that "enemy" has nothing whatsoever to do with nationality. It is simply and solely a question whether the person whom we wish to prevent getting the money is trading with Germany or Austria. He may be an Englishman trading in Germany, or equally he may be a German trading in England, but these are not affected by this Bill at all. A man is not an enemy within the meaning of this Bill simply because he is trading in Germany or carrying on business in Germany. That is a distinction which must be borne in mind, and which apparently one or two hon. Members who have spoken have not quite grasped. I am not going into what I may call Committee points, but there was one raised by the hon. and learned Member for Kingston (Mr. Cave) as to whether or not a transfer of shares in an English company since the War commenced should be invalidated. I think that would be an extremely dangerous thing to do. This Act makes any transfer of shares in an English company—say, the London and North-western, for instance—from an alien enemy to anybody else invalid as from the

    723
    date of the printing of this Bill, and my hon. and learned Friend suggests that the invalidity should apply to any transfer made since the beginning of the War.
    Sir A. MARKHAM: Unless valuable consideration is proved.
    Mr. RAWLINSON: Yes, unless the person proves that valuable consideration has been paid. But just look at the meaning of that from a commercial point of view. Suppose there was a transfer of London and North-Western stock on the 14th September from an alien enemy to a neutral. The stock may have been sold again on the 28th September to an English buyer. Is his title to turn on the question of the transfer on the 14th September? Are we to have that reopened directly this Bill passes? Are we to call for proof that the transfer on the 14th September was made for due consideration? If that is the intention it will lead to a very difficult position, and it will mean upsetting the title of intermediate holders at any particular time. What good can be done by invalidating such a transfer, seeing that the stock may subsequently have been passed on to other people?
    Sir A. MARKHAM: The hon. and learned Member for Kingston made it perfectly clear that he only wanted this to apply to bogus transactions.
    Mr. RAWLINSON: Suppose it is a bogus transaction? What I am trying to explain is that it is a very difficult thing to reopen a transaction which took place as long ago as the 14th September, when there may have been many intermediate transactions, perfectly honest, since. If a man bought the shares honestly and paid for them, is he to lose the shares because the transfer in September was a bogus one? I certainly shall oppose any Amendment having that for its object.
    Sir C. CORY: If a man buys stolen goods, does he not have to stand the racket?
    Mr. RAWLINSON: There are a great many exceptions, even in that case. For instance, in the case of goods sold in market overt, there is a perfectly good title, and there are many other cases in which a perfectly good title can be
    724
    obtained. For instance, in the case of stolen shares, if they come into the hands of a bonâ fide holder for value received, he is entitled to the security. [An HON. MEMBER: "What about pawnbrokers?"] When there is a transfer in market overt it is perfectly good, and it should be the same when dealing with shares. It would be a serious matter to invalidate the title in such a case. I shall also oppose the suggested Amendment of my hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool (Mr. Watson Rutherford). He has been dealing with the question of Christmas delicacies—a more flagrant case of trading with the enemy I can hardly imagine. It is a transaction in currants or oranges; it is not complete at the present time, but, as I understand it, he seeks to invalidate it. As far as I can gather he has been guilty of flagrant trading with the enemy, and is now trying to defeat some contract.
    Mr. RUTHERFORD: Nothing of the sort.
    Mr. RAWLINSON: I leave that Committee point to be dealt with at the proper time. Seriously, I would draw attention once more to a relevant point of this Bill contained in a Clause which has not been mentioned. I refer to Clause 10, Sub-section (3). If that Clause is enforced a great amount of good will be done. We are trying to prevent the successful financing of Germany or Austria during the War. It is perfectly simple for people in England who have German sympathies or people who might be anxious to get money into Germany to obtain a credit in New York, and New York being in a neutral State it is possible to transfer the credit from New York to Frankfort, and so the financing goes round. We are dealing here with big matters, not with a cargo of raisins or anything of that sort. If somebody in London is anxious to assist the Germans at the present time he might possibly do it by transmitting money to New York, getting the necessary credit in New York and then getting a person in New York to transmit it to a German. It is upon this Clause that I should like the assistance of the House. Clause 10, Sub-section (3) says,
    "If any person without lawful authority deals, or attempts, or directly

    725
    or indirectly offers proposes or agrees, to deal with any money or security for money or other property which is in his hands or over which he has any claim or control for the purpose of enabling an enemy to obtain money or credit thereon or thereby he shall be deemed to be guilty of the offence of trading with the enemy within the meaning of the principal Act."
    That is a very wide provision and I should like to invite the consideration of hon. Members between now and Monday as to whether that may not possibly go too far, or, on the other hand, whether it really goes far enough to prevent things of this kind. I understand the object of it is to prevent anybody over here sending money to New York which would give a credit in some form or other to any enemy in Germany, Austria, or Turkey. If that object is effected no doubt it will carry out a very large proportion of the matters within the Bill. The Bill is one to which I think the whole House desires to give a Second Reading now. I believe they are anxious to assist the Government in dealing with this matter. I hope that between now and Monday the speech of the Attorney-General will be carefully read, so that suggestions may be made to him, and I am quite sure that none will be more glad than he to give attention to the suggestions made.
    Question, "That the Bill be now read a second time," put, and agreed to.
    Bill read a second time, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House for Monday next.—[Mr. William Jones.]

    SHERIFF COURTS (SCOTLAND) BILL.
    Order for Second Reading read.
    Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read a second time."
    The LORD ADVOCATE (Mr. Munro): My right hon. Friend the Secretary for Scotland has asked me to move the Second Reading of this Bill, and I can do so in a very few sentences. The immediate purpose which the Bill is designed to serve
    726
    is to enable the Secretary for Scotland to appoint interim sheriff-substitutes in the place of those who are at present engaged in military service on behalf of their country. The present situation is that under the Sheriff Courts (Scotland) Act, 1907, the Secretary for Scotland can only appoint an interim sheriff-substitute if the holder of that office is absent on the ground of ill-health. Accordingly, when those gentlemen to whom I have referred, whose public spirit I am sure the House will recognise, took upon themselves to elect to serve the country in a military capacity, the Secretary for Scotland found himself in this position: that he was unable, under the existing law, to appoint interim sheriff-substitutes to take their places and perform their duties. Hence this Bill. It is quite true that the Bill goes a little further than the particular object to which I have referred. It proposes to give the Secretary for Scotland power to appoint an interim sheriff-substitute for any reasonable cause. The House will probably agree with me that this is a very reasonable proposal, especially when I remind them that it merely confers upon the Secretary for Scotland, in regard to sheriff-substitutes, the power he already possesses with regard to sheriffs. With regard to sheriffs, the Secretary for Scotland at the present time can appoint interim sheriffs on any reasonable ground. For some reason or other he has not that power so far as interim sheriff-substitutes are concerned, and this Bill is designed to give him that necessary and desirable power, I need only say, in conclusion, that I have had the advantage with regard to this measure of consulting with the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Central Glasgow (Mr. Scott Dickson), and also with the hon. Baronet who represents the Ayr Burghs (Sir George Younger), and they both agree with the view that this Bill, as framed, is a necessary and desirable measure. I therefore hope the House will give it a Second Reading.
    Mr. WATT: As indicated by the Lord Advocate in the observations he has just addressed to the House, this measure is brought in by his Department to enable officers in Scotland called sheriff-substitutes to take part in the military service of the State, and the powers which this

    727
    measure gives to the Secretary for Scotland enable him to appoint interim sheriff-substitutes for those gentlemen while they are serving in a military capacity. No one in this House has the slightest desire to prevent that, but in bringing this about the Department over which the Lord Advocate presides has gone much further than the intent with which they set out, namely, that these gentlemen should be allowed substitutes while they are called up for military service. Indeed, the Memorandum in front of the Bill indicates clearly the position of affairs. If the House will compare the Memorandum with the actual measure they will find that they in no way correspond, and that the measure goes much further than the Memorandum. The Memorandum says:—
    "Cases have arisen where, on account of the War, sheriff-substitutes have been called up for military service and are absent from duty on that ground."
    And it enables the Secretary for Scotland to appoint interim sheriff-substitutes to perform the duties while they are away. If the House will turn to the measure as moved by the Lord Advocate, they will find that, instead of putting in the words "or for military service," they have put in the words "or for other reasonable cause," which are much wider. This measure, if passed into law, will enable the Secretary for Scotland in the case of sheriff-substitutes, who are by no means overworked men, leave of absence for any reasonable cause and allow him to appoint interim sheriff-substitutes. For example, the sheriff-substitute may represent to the Secretary for Scotland that he is going off on his wedding tour, and I dare say the Secretary for Scotland will consider that a reasonable cause for absence from his duties. But I think that power should not be put into the hands of the Secretary for Scotland. There are forty-nine sheriff-substitutes in Scotland, and I think the Lord Advocate will not contradict me when I say that there are only six or seven of these, in the populous districts, who have anything like hard work to do and that the other forty-three have a very leisurely time. The sheriff-substitute in the district in which I am interested has one day's work a week and he can get a half-holiday on that day when he pushes
    728
    matters. I hope the Lord Advocate will see his way to substitute for the words "other reasonable cause" the words "military service."
    Mr. HOGGE: I think the Lord Advocate should give some reply to my hon. colleague. No one in the House, certainly not the Scottish Members, has any desire to delay any emergency Bill which is necessary for the purpose of the War. But the words of which my hon. Friend complains have appeared to a large number of us who have looked at this Bill to provide too wide a margin for the exercise of the power of the Secretary for Scotland or the Lord Advocate in appointing substitutes for these men. It ought to be reasonably possible, and I submit this as a purely business point to the Lord Advocate, to ascertain now what number of sheriff-substitutes are likely to offer themselves for this particular service, and if the Lord Advocate can assure my hon. Friend and those of us who represent constituencies in Scotland that he will so alter the wording of the Bill as to confine entirely the appointment of substitutes to those sheriff-substitutes who are absent on duties connected with the War, there will be no further objection to his measure going through. If he cannot see his way to do that, it may be for us to consider whether we shall put down Amendments on the Committee stage and raise the point further. I do not think the request we are making is unreasonable, that for this particular and special purpose the words which are used should be so defined as to make them directly applicable to that purpose and to no other.
    Mr. MUNRO: I have listened with attention to what has been said by my two hon. colleagues, and the point which they raise is obviously a Committee point, and if any Amendment is put down to give effect to the view which they have expressed, I shall consider it with great care. I do not think the words "military service" quite meet the situation, because it is conceivable that a sheriff-substitute might be called upon for some other duty in connection with the service of their country at this juncture which would not be precisely covered by these words. I am only asking the House to confer the same power upon the Secretary for Scotland

    729
    which he already enjoys with regard to sheriffs in connection with sheriff-substitutes. It seems an anomaly that the distinction should exist and the opportunity of getting rid of it is a very fitting one.
    Mr. PRINGLE: The Lord Advocate has referred to the distinction made between sheriffs and sheriff-substitutes under the Act. It is true that leave of absence may be given to a sheriff, not only on account of ill-health but on account of any other reasonable cause, whereas the alternative does not exist in regard to sheriff-substitutes. But the Act which we are amending is a very recent Act. It was only passed in 1907, and when it was passed through this House it was carefully examined by the Scottish Standing Committee. It seems rather strange, therefore, that an Act so recently passed and examined by the Scottish Members should have preserved such a distinction without some very good reason, and consequently, if so recently Parliament has decided to make this distinction, surely it is taking a very large step, owing to the special circumstances of this War, to remove the distinction altogether. I agree with my hon. Friends who have spoken, that if it is merely to be emergency legislation, the terms of the Bill which we are now passing should be confined to the causes connected with the emergency.
    Question put, and agreed to.
    Bill read a second time.
    Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be committed to a Committee of the Whole House."—[Mr. Webb.]
    Mr. HOGGE: Are we not entitled to have the Bill sent to the Scottish Grand Committee? It turns entirely on Scottish business.
    Mr. SPEAKER: The hon. Member can, if he likes, oppose the Motion to commit the Bill to Committee of the Whole House.
    Question put, and agreed to.
    Committee to sit upon Monday next.

    ANGLO-PORTUGUESE COMMERCIAL TREATY BILL.
    Order for Second Reading read.
    Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read a second time."
    Sir F. BANBURY: May we have an explanation of this measure?
    Mr. J. M. ROBERTSON: The House is aware that, as regards trade with Portugal, British trade has been at a disadvantage in respect that we had not, in Portugal, most-favoured-nation treatment. The reason for that has been dissatisfaction in Portugal with regard to our treatment of port wine. The dissatisfaction was on two grounds. One was that we taxed port wine, on our principle of taxing alcoholic spirits, more highly than we did French wines.
    Sir F. BANBURY: I do not want to take up time with a long discussion of the particular Customs Clauses, but what has this to do with the War? Is it a Bill which is brought in on account of the War, or is it an ordinary Bill which would have been brought in whether there was war or not?
    Mr. ROBERTSON: It is brought in for the fulfilment of the Treaty of Commerce, the ratification of which is highly desirable; and, further, we consider that anything that easily and simply promotes British trade at this juncture is a useful measure in connection with the War. We are taking every measure in our power to extend British trade, and this very simple measure, which will permit of the ratification of the Portuguese Treaty, will at once put British trade in Portugal up on a level with that of other countries.
    Sir F. BANBURY: It is going rather far, but I will take the hon. Gentleman's word.
    Mr. WATT: It is, and has been the case for many years, the case that motor-car manufacturers have been unable to get their cars into Portugal on equal terms with French manufacturers. Is this difficulty solved by this treaty?
    Mr. ROBERTSON: That is precisely one of the great advantages. The matter of motor cars is one in which our traders

    731
    particularly suffer. British motor cars have to pay a higher rate on going into Portugal than those of other countries. When the Bill is passed and the treaty ratified that disability will be removed and our cars will be on an equality with others.
    Mr. BOOTH: I wish to ask a question with reference to the definition of port wine. As I understand, if this Bill passes, it will be impossible to say that Spanish port is port.
    Mr. ROBERTSONwas understood to indicate assent.
    Mr. BOOTH: The representative of the Government responsible for the Bill thinks my interpretation correct.
    Mr. J. O'CONNOR: If the hon. Member's interpretation were not adopted, the Bill would clash with a law passed four years ago in Portugal whereby port wine was defined. Xo law passed here will affect that law.
    Mr. BOOTH: The point is that whilst this may be made a matter of arrangement between ourselves and our ancient ally, Portugal, I mention it now lest it should lead to trouble between ourselves and the neighbouring nation of Spain. We know the relations between this country and the Royal family of Spain. Spanish port is sold in this country, and I should like to submit to the Government that some term will have to be used which will make it impossible in future to sell anything but Portuguese port as port. I only mention it now in order that the House may have some assurance that all is right between ourselves and Spain.
    Mr. J. O'CONNOR: I hope the hon. Gentleman appreciates port when he gets it, whether it comes from Portugal or Spain. It has already been decided by the Courts of Law that Spanish port cannot be sold in this country as port without incurring a penalty under the Merchandise Marks Act. A large trader, whose name I need not mention, and for whom I acted in Court at the time, was severely punished by fine for attempting in a small way to palm off Spanish port as port that came from Portugal. It is an offence under the Merchandise Marks Act to label
    732
    anything as port except (1) the product of grapes grown in the Valley of the Douro; (2) fortified by brandy, the product of grapes grown in the Valley of the Douro; and (3) exported through the port of Oporto. If an attempt is made to palm off on the British public anything that does not comply with these conditions you bring yourself under the penalties of that Act.
    Mr. ROBERTSON: We have no apprehension that Spain will take any special offence at the provisions of this measure. As I already explained, it is for the ratification of a commercial treaty, and at present it is undoubtedly of importance to promote British trade with neutral countries. Any measure that will promote British trade should be carefully considered.
    Question put, and agreed to.
    Bill read a second time, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House for Monday next.—[Mr. Webb.]

    EXPORTATION OF ARMS ACT (1900) AMENDMENT BILL.
    Read a second time, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House for Monday next.—[Mr. Webb.]

    CRIMINAL JUSTICE ADMINISTRATION (POSTPONEMENT) BILL.
    Order for Second Reading read.
    Motion made, and Question proposed. "That the Bill be now read a second time."
    4.0 P.M.
    Mr. RAWLINSON: I would like a full explanation as to how this Bill should be proposed. Last Session we passed the Criminal Justice Administration Act, and this Bill is now introduced to postpone its coming into operation from 1st December until 1st April. It appears to me that the principal provisions of the Act could be brought into operation on 1st December, and that certain Sections could be postponed. I do hope that the Home Secretary will not postpone the whole of this very much needed measure, so far as minor matters are concerned.
    The SECRETARY of STATE for the HOME DEPARTMENT (Mr. McKenna): That is precisely the point with which this amending Bill deals. We ask power to postpone the Act of last year four months, the general reason being that the offices of the clerks to the justices have been to a large extent depleted in consequence of the War. A large number of the staff have gone away, and in consequence of that they have been unable to make or to consider the rules which for the first time will have to be brought into operation under the Act. It is also equally true that in the Home Office, owing to the pressure of other work, we have been unable to get out in time the necessary rules and orders which the Act contemplates. The hon. and learned Gentleman opposite says that these considerations do not apply to the whole of the Bill, and accordingly we take power to introduce certain parts of the Act immediately after 1st December by Order in Council. The Clauses which I propose to include in the Order in Council would be Clause 1, which deals with the allowing of time for payment of fines; Section 18, dealing with consecutive sentences of imprisonment; Sections 21 and 22, which facilitate the release of prisoners; Section 23, which secures that a person committed for trial on a charge of misdemeanour shall be informed of his right to apply to a judge of the High Court for bail; Sections 30, 31 and 32, which deal with periodical payment and the recovery of arrears in bastardy and rights of infants' cases; Section 33, which affects a pressing amendment of the law with regard to the duties of ratepayers; and Section 35, which merely removes doubts in certain criminal cases.
    Mr. HUME-WILLIAMS: Section 25 is very much needed in reference to the manner of payment of fines.
    Mr. McKENNA: As to that Clause, my advisers came to the conclusion that we could not bring it into operation now without other work having to be done. However, I will consider both Sections 25 and 37, with a view, if possible, of bringing them into operation at once. It is for that reason, because we thought we might be able to bring more Clauses into operation by Order in Council than we could definitely name now, that we have adopted
    734
    this form of suspending the Bill giving to the Department power by Order in Council to bring Clauses into operation as and when we could. The original form of the draft was to bring certain Clauses into, operation immediately, and suspend the rest. But we thought that the present form would leave it open to us to reconsider such Clauses as Sections 25 and 37, in order to bring them into operation at the earliest possible moment. Speaking for myself, I am most anxious to see the Act brought into operation at the earliest moment, and it is with very great reluctance that I felt myself obliged to propose this Bill at all.
    Mr. RAWLINSON: I do hope that between now and Monday the right hon. Gentleman will take into consideration the inconvenience of legislation in such a form that we do not know when it comes into operation. How is a poor country solicitor whose office is depleted by the absence of clerks to find out when a particular Order in Council is made, suppose you make two or three Orders in Council between now and March? It is very important to get before the country—and the only way is by an Act of Parliament—the Sections which you mean to bring into force. Really, in the vast majority of these cases, no rules are required at all, or even if they are enforced without rules nothing particular would happen, because people would get on until the rules were passed. I press the Government to go through this Bill very carefully, to put into the Bill only items as to which it is perfectly certain that rules are required, and to do all they can to avoid Orders in Council.
    Mr. McKENNA: I will certainly consider what can be done between now and Monday.
    Mr. RADFORD: I would like to join with the hon. and learned Member for the University of Cambridge in asking the Home Secretary to consider some methods of bringing parts of this Bill into operation as soon as possible. I think that the method suggested by the hon. and learned Member is much the more convenient. I hope that alt consideration will be given to the administrative difficulties caused by the proposal now made. It is a great disappointment to me, as I believe it is to all

    735
    persons interested in criminal reform, that Clause 1 of the Bill, which deals with finance, is proposed to be deferred in its operation.
    Mr. McKENNA: It is included.
    Mr. RADFORD: I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will take into consideration the point which has been referred to.
    Mr. McKENNA: As I understand the point of the hon. and learned Gentlemen opposite and of my hon. Friend, they would rather see the Bill in a form which declare that certain Clauses are to come into operation, and than that the others should be suspended. They would rather have definite knowledge at once what the Clauses are than leave them over to be put into operation piecemeal.
    Mr. RAWLINSON: Certainly.
    Mr. McKENNA: I think that is a very reasonable point, and I shall consider it.
    Sir JOHN JARDINE: I am glad that my right hon. Friend has come to that decision, simply on account of the fact that it relieves the clerks and magistrates in Petty Sessions of a great deal of difficulty that they would have been under if the other course had not been adopted.
    Question put, and agreed to.
    Bill read a second time, and committed to Committee of the Whole House for Monday next.—[Mr. McKenna.]

    LAND DRAINAGE (EXPENSES).
    Resolution reported,
    "That it is expedient to authorise the payment, out of money to be provided by Parliament, of any Expenses in relation to a Provisional Order which may be incurred in pursuance of any Act of the present Session to make better provision for the execution and maintenance of Land Drainage Works."
    Question, "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the said Resolution," put, and agreed to.

    LAND DRAINAGE BILL.
    Considered in Committee.
    [Mr. MACLEAN in the Chair.]

    CLAUSE 1.—(Power to Constitute Bodies for the Construction of Land Drainage Works.)
    (1) If the Board of Agriculture and Fisheries (hereinafter referred to as "the Board") are of opinion that the execution of any work of drainage, embankment, or defence against water is desirable for the improvement or protection of any area, and that provision for the execution of the work should be made tinder the powers conferred by this Act, they may by Provisional Order constitute a body (corporate or unincorporate) for the purpose and authorise the execution of the work by the body so constituted, and make such provision for the execution and maintenance of the work as the Board may think proper.

    (2) A Provisional Order under this Section may amongst other things—

    (a) define the area for the improvement or protection of which the work is executed;

    (b) define the powers and duties of the body constituted by the Order;

    (c) provide for the manner in which any expenses incurred by the body constituted by the Order are to be raised by conferring on that body such powers as to rating and borrowing as are exerciseable by Commissions of Sewers, or by requiring contributions from other drainage authorities exercising jurisdiction within the area defined by the Order, and may for that purpose vary and extend any rating and borrowing powers of any drainage authority so required to contribute;

    (d) enable the body constituted by the Order to acquire land by agreement; or to acquire land compulsorily, if so authorised by an Order of the Development Commissioners made in accordance with the provisions of the Schedule to the Development and Road Improvement Funds Act, 1909, and as if such provisions with the necessary adaptions were incorporated in this Act;

    and the Provisional Order may contain any incidental, consequential, or supplemental provisions which may appear necessary or proper for the purposes of the Order.
    (3) The provisions set out in the Schedule to this Act shall have effect with respect to Provisional Orders made under this Act.
    Mr. J. O'CONNOR: I beg to move, in Sub-section (2), paragraph (c), after the word "sewers" ["Commissioners of Sewers"], to insert the words "and in Ireland such powers be exercised by the Department of Agriculture and Technical Education." It will be in the recollection of the House that two days ago, on the Second Reading of this Bill, I took occasion to complain that the terms and provisions of this very excellent measure were not extended to Ireland—a country which requires the operation of some such Act, when it becomes an Act, to a much greater degree than the countries to which it refers. If I may be permitted the privilege, I would say that the Amendment which has been read out by the Chair, is consequential upon an Amendment which I shall have to move later on. I was met on the last occasion of the Second Heading with the objection that this Bill could not be applied to Ireland because there is not a Commission of Sewers in Ireland. We have already forty-two or forty-three public boards in Ireland administering the law there, which is, I believe, a greater number than you have in this country. I do not ask that those boards shall be added to in any respect whatever, because my present Amendment is to confer powers on the Vice-President of the Agricultural Department in Ireland the powers which are conferred upon the Commission of Sewers in this country. I repeat the complaint I have already made, that the demands of Ireland in this respect should have been overlooked. We have been crying out for some such Bill as this for a long time, and within my own experience of the past thirty years we had a hardy annual Motion which called on the Government to turn its attention to this great grievance. We were crying in the wilderness, and we are still crying in the midst of a weary waste of waters in Ireland. There is a river running through
    738
    my own Constituency which overflows its banks four times a year, and floods an area each time of no less than 48,000 acres. The health of the people is thereby impaired, agricultural operations are prevented, and in every respect the country is damaged. Is there any reason why we should not complain that the provisions of this Bill are not extended to Ireland? I am making no extravagant proposal at all. Bills were introduced into this House at one time by the late Prime Minister, the Member for the City. In 1888 he introduced three Bills, one the Shannon Drainage Bill, another the Barrow Drainage Bill, and the third, the Bann Drainage Bill, which river, although in the North, is to be found in Ireland.
    Mr. BOOTH: On a point of Order. Is the River Bann mentioned in this Bill, and may I ask whether it is permissible on the Committee Stage to extend the operation of a measure like this, and will not my hon. Friend's very good proposals really require another Bill?
    The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the BOARD of AGRICULTURE (Sir Harry Verney): With every sympathy for Ireland and Scotland in this matter I have taken advice on it, and I was informed that such an Amendment would make the Bill impossible, and therefore, with every wish to do otherwise, I was prevented from doing so.
    Mr. J. O'CONNOR: May I say, in reply, that the hon. Gentleman could not have asked for the advice of his legal advisers upon an Amendment with which he was totally unacquainted?
    Sir H. VERNEY: It could not apply to Ireland.
    Mr. J. O'CONNOR: This House can do anything in Committee or otherwise, and is paramount over its own actions. I submit most confidently that it is possible for this House to so amend and extend the Bill as to apply to any part of the country to which it is not intended by the promoters to apply. There is nothing in the Bill to indicate that it does not apply to Ireland, but it would be impossible to apply it to Ireland unless the Amendment I am proposing were accepted, because there is no authority like the Commission of Sewers in Ireland.
    The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN (Mr. Maclean): While the hon. Member was speaking I was looking at the Bill in connection with his Amendment. It seems to me that if the Amendment were permitted it would be quite outside the Clause as at present drawn. The Board of Agriculture and Fisheries clearly means the English Board. To introduce an Amendment referring to Ireland seems to me quite outside the scope of the Clause. Therefore I am sorry, but I must rule the Amendment out of order.
    Sir F. BANBURY: I beg to move, in Sub-section (2) (d), to leave out the words "Schedule to the Development and Road Improvement Funds Act, 1909," and to insert instead thereof the words "Lands Clauses Act."
    I looked to see what the Schedule to the Development and Road Improvement Funds Act, 1909, was, and I found that, while that Schedule incorporated the Lands Clauses Act, it made important alterations, one of them being the abolition of the 10 per cent, for compulsory purchase. The object of this Bill is to provide for unemployment. It is to have a duration of only two years, and machinery is to be set up to deal with unemployment caused by the War, if such unemployment should arise. That is a most excellent object, with which I have no quarrel. But if the State is going to be charitable in this way, it should not be charitable at the expense of one person. If it is going to take a man's land for this particular purpose, it should not try to be generous at one person's expense. If land is to be taken to give employment to people, the provisions of the Lands Clauses Act should properly apply. The hon. Baronet may say that we cannot go against precedent. As I told him in a private interview, it is no argument to say that because we have made a bad precedent we are always to go on with it. This is an exceptional case, and although there may be arguments why the Lands Clauses Act should not apply in ordinary cases, in this particular case I certainly think it ought to apply.
    Sir H. VERNEY: I am very much obliged to the hon. Baronet for having given me private notice of this Amendment. I can assure him that I have done my best to see if it were possible to accept it. I am inclined to agree with him that, if you
    740
    have a bad precedent, that is no argument for going on with it. My difficulty is that it is not a bad precedent, but a very good one—the precedent of the Small Holdings Act and the Development Act. The tendency under these Acts, of which we have some experience at the Board, is not that the landlord gets too little, but that the landlord gets too much. Almost all the complaints that have reached us have been in that direction, and the arbitrator has proved very much on the generous side towards the landlord. My difficulty in accepting the Amendment is that I think it will be raising a very controversial subject, which is aside from a policy which has now become the settled policy of Parliament. As this Bill is entirely, I hope, non-controversial, it is hardly open to me at this period of the Session to raise a controversial point by accepting the Amendment.
    Mr. POLLOCK: I am sorry for the answer that we have just heard from the Treasury Bench. The precedent quoted really has no bearing at all upon this Bill. This is a Bill to last two years. It is an emergency Bill. The War is without precedent, and the emergency, we hope, is also without precedent. Therefore it is no good to tell us that the Small Holdings Act or some other Act has adopted this system in times of peace for the purposes of peace. I ask the hon. Gentleman to accept this Amendment in the interests of his own Bill. I will show him how. The purposes of this Bill, as I understand it, is that there shall be some area taken to which it shall apply. If you follow out the procedure of the Bill as contained in the Schedule, if there is any sort of obstruction—in fact, if there is not a willingness on the part of the person whose land is to be taken—you will really never get any land at all under this Bill. You have to proceed by giving notice to the public authorities, then, if there is any dispute, you will require to hold a public inquiry, then a Provisional Order will be required with the Bill in contemplation. If you have any controversy with the landowner, will you, do you think, get any Bill through in the course of such time as will enable any real work to be done under the Bill? The only way in which you can do it satisfactorily is to tempt the person who owns the land to give any land you

    741
    may require, and the one way to tempt him is to give him compensation under the Land Clauses Act, instead of in the Schedule of the development of land. That is the real point.
    This Bill, I venture to say, is really already dead. You will never get any land. It is a very good idea, and I would wish to see the land taken, and the Bill become operative, and the way to achieve that would be to accept this Amendment. I think we may take it that no land will ever be secured under this Bill, and that all its powers will be worthless. You may be able to get some land outside the Bill by agreement: that is another matter. If you want to work this Bill you must make the terms attractive; if not you will get nothing in the course of the two years. On these grounds I ask the hon. Gentleman to try and reconsider this matter, and to deal with it upon Report.
    Sir H. VERNEY: I would rather risk the death of the Bill. I do not think the hon. Gentleman on reflection will agree that in these times of emergency a landlord is not willing to part with his land without 10 per cent, temptation to make him.
    Mr. POLLOCK: In that case, then, you do not want the compulsory powers of the Bill.
    Sir PHIPSON BEALE: If the object of hon. Gentlemen opposite is only to ensure that the landlord gets his full compensation, I think their suggestion is wide of the mark. It cannot be got by simply saying that the Lands Clauses Act shall apply. The Lands Clauses Act only applies to specific land mentioned in the Bill which incorporates the Lands Clauses. If you have a right to take land you must have something in the nature of a Provisional Order, so that you can put your finger on the right land to take. I do not think you will secure any good purpose by putting in the provisions of the Lands Clauses Act into this Bill.
    Mr. BOOTH: I certainly hope the Government will adhere to the declaration made by the hon. Gentleman in charge of the Bill. What I heard rather staggers me. The hon. Member for Leamington used the phrase that the landowner must be tempted. We hope to get through this
    742
    Session without any Divisions, but rather than that legislation should go through for the purpose of tempting a landlord by money that he is not entitled to, I would go to a Division if I could only secure another Teller. Surely in this time, when men engaged in business are making enormous sacrifices and employing large staffs and keeping places open for men who have gone to the War and doing everything to protect the labouring population against distress, we ought not to be expected to tempt a ground landlord by 10 per cent. It is unthinkable! I am sure the hon. and learned Member opposite, when he comes here again on Monday will totally disavow what he has put forward now.
    Mr. POLLOCK: The hon. Member entirely misinterprets and misconstrues the whole purport of my speech. Perhaps he is not familiar with the two Acts concerned here.
    Mr. BOOTH: I am glad to have induced the hon. Member not to wait to disavow what he has said until Monday next, but to disavow it now. He admits that he used the phrase "tempting the landlord." The hon. Member must not expect me to agree that he correctly describes my knowledge, but I venture to say that the temptation in his mind and in that of the hon. Baronet was this 10 per cent, additional compensation. The landowners are not entitled to it, but they are in the habit of wanting it, and they sometimes get it. It is that I am against. I am not going to be put off with reference to these Acts of Parliament, and I hope this Amendment will meet with the strongest opposition.
    Question, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Clause," put, and agreed to.
    Clause added to the Bill.

    CLAUSE 4.—(Short Title and Duration.)
    (1) This Act may be cited as the Land Drainage Act, 1914.

    (2) The powers of making Provisional Orders under this Act shall not be exercised after the expiration of two years from the passing of this Act, except for the purpose of amending an existing Provisional Order; but nothing in this Subsection shall prejudice or affect any

    743
    powers or provisions contained in any Provisional Order made before the expiration of that period.

    Sir F. BANBURY: I beg to move, in Sub-section (2), after the word "Order" ["of amending an existing Provisional Order"], to insert the words "made under this Act." This is a small drafting Amendment, and I hope the hon. Baronet will be disposed to accept it.
    Sir H. VERNEY: This Act is only to last for two years, and there is no intention of amending any Provisional Order, except when made under this Act, and I give a guarantee, for what it is worth, that no such alteration will be made. I quite understand the hon. Baronet requires a guarantee. I understand no Amendment could be legally made except of a Provisional Order under this Act. If the hon. Baronet looks at Sub-section (7) of the Schedule, he will see that—
    "Any Provisional Order made under this Act may be repealed, altered, or amended by any Provisional Order made by the Board in like manner as the original Order and confirmed by Parliament."
    That also applies to Sub-section (2) of Section 4, and while there is no objection to the words, I think he will agree they are not wanted, and it is better not to have words that are redundant.
    Sir F. BANBURY: I would rather have them in. I do not think they could do any harm. I am certain Sub-section (7) of the Schedule makes it quite clear, but I would rather the words were put in here.
    Sir H. VERNEY: I would rather that the words were omitted.
    Sir F. BANBURY: I do not deny that the Bill may be perfectly clear without them, and I have no doubt that the hon. Baronet will adhere to his statement, but I would point out that a statement made here does not in any kind of way bind the Law Courts afterwards. If the hon. Baronet does not mind I would rather that they were put in, and if on Monday, after consultation with the Law Officers, he finds that they are unnecessary and he can give me that assurance they can be struck out.
    Sir H. VERNEY: The hon. Baronet is always generous in his arrangements, but I would like the matter dealt with now, and what he suggests can be done at a later stage.
    Question, "That those words be there inserted," put, and agreed to.
    Clause, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

    NEW CLAUSE.—(Application to Ireland.)
    "That in Ireland the Board of Public Works be the authority to make the Provisional Order herein and the Department of Agriculture and Technical Education take the place of the Commission of Sewers."—[Mr. J. O'Connor.]
    Clause brought up, and read the first time.
    Mr. J. O'CONNOR: I beg to propose, "That the Clause be read a second time."
    In my former observations I was about to draw the attention of the House to the important fact that this Bill does not propose to impose any cost upon the country whatever. I was drawing attention, byway of contrast, to a Bill that was introduced on a former occasion by the then Chief Secretary for Ireland the present Member for the City of London (Mr. Balfour). He proposed the Bills I have mentioned with this fact attached to them, that large Grants of public money were to be made to the authorities set up under the Bill in order to carry out its operation. This Bill does not propose to impose any tax upon this country or to make any Grant to Ireland. It only proposes to set up authorities in Ireland that will have the power to tax themselves to carry out necessary works. They have the power of extending the area of taxation and of imposing taxes upon themselves. This is just an enabling Bill, and we ask for the extension of the provisions of this Bill, which costs nothing, and merely enables local authorities to carry out necessary work, and we are met with technical objections at every point. My suggestion is merely to extend the benefit of a beneficent Act to a country that wants it most. Here you have an authority set up that can exercise powers that are already in existence in this country, but in Ireland

    745
    we have no such power, and we have been crying out for them for a long time. I am simply asking that this Bill shall be—
    Mr. BOOTH: I wish to raise a point of Order. I am in sympathy with the hon. Member opposite, but I understood from the statement made by the Minister in charge of this Bill that by no change in the words of this measure could it be made to apply to Ireland. I understand that none of these Clauses could be made to apply to the circumstances in Ireland on account of the way they are drafted.
    Mr. J. O'CONNOR: If I am wrong, I think I should be told so by the representative of the Government.
    Sir H. VERNEY: The only purpose of Bill is that the English Board should have certain powers and that is the beginning and the end of the Bill. I have great sympathy with the hon. Member's object, and I regret that I am informed that I cannot make this Bill apply to Ireland.
    Mr. T. W. RUSSELL (Vice-President of the Department of Agriculture, Ireland): It is not so much legislation that is required as agreement between the different authorities. At one time the Treasury were prepared to make a grant, but the local districts could not be induced to make their contribution, and all efforts have come to nothing on that point.
    The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN: I am still against the hon. and learned Member. The whole text of the Bill obviously refers to the English Board, and just to add this at the end seems to me to depart from the real purpose of the Bill.
    Schedule agreed to.
    Bill reported.
    As amended, considered.
    Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read the third time."
    Mr. MORTON: I should just like to ask what the Bill has to do with the War?
    Sir H. VERNEY: I tried to make that clear on the Second Beading. It is purely a temporary Bill, lasting two years only,
    746
    and it is simply and solely to deal with the question of unemployment arising in consequence of the War. If unemployment does not arise in consequence of the War, this Bill will probably not take effect. If there should be serious unemployment in consequence of the War and a large scheme of land drainage should be required, then the Bill will enable the Board to make a Provisional Order dealing with the emergency.
    Mr. MORTON: Then it is quite clear Ireland and Scotland ought to be included.
    Mr. PRINGLE: In case my hon. Friend should be regarded as the sole champion of Scotland, I wish to put a question to the hon. Baronet and thereby elicit the reason why Scotland is not included in the Bill. As I understand it, the powers which are conferred by this Bill upon the Board of Agriculture are at present exercised under the Land Drainage Act by a body known as the Commissioners of Sewers. For some reason or other it is found convenient to dispense with the existing authorities under the Land Drainage Act. In that memorable speech which the hon. Baronet made on the Second Reading he made no reference to the motives of the Government in bringing in this Bill. He should at least have informed the House why it was inconvenient to act through the existing authorities and why the new machinery under this Bill is preferable to that under the Lands Drainage Act. As I understand it, this Bill is not applied to Scotland because, fortunately, the Lands Drainage Act does not apply to Scotland, and the same measures as are contemplated under this Bill can be taken into Scotland without any special legislation at all. In these circumstances the representatives for Scottish constituencies have not thought it necessary to put pressure on the Scottish Office to include Scotland in this Bill. But on the other point I mentioned I should like to have an explanation if possible.
    Sir H. VERNEY: I am afraid I have exhausted my right of reply.
    Question put, and agreed to.
    Bill read the third time, and passed.

    HOUSE OF COMMONS (COMMISSIONS IN HIS MAJESTY'S FORCES) BILL.
    Considered in Committee.
    [Mr. MACLEAN in the Chair.]

    CLAUSE 1.—(Acceptance of a Commission in His Majesty's Forces not to Vacate the Seat of a Member of Parliament.)
    (1) The acceptance of a commission as an officer in His Majesty's Forces shall not vacate and shall be deemed not to have vacated the seat of any Member returned to serve in Parliament, and shall not render and shall be deemed not to have rendered a person accepting such a commission incapable of being elected to, or sitting or voting in, the Commons House of Parliament.

    (2) The provisions of this Act shall be in addition to and not in derogation of, any other enactment relating to any particular part of His Majesty's Forces, and having a similar effect, and nothing in this Act shall be construed so as to extend any provisions of the Succession to the Crown Act, 1707, to cases to which it does not otherwise extend.

    Amendments made: In Sub-section (2), after "1707," insert,
    "or of the House of Commons (Disqualifications) Act, 1801, or of the Act of the Irish Parliament 33 Geo. III, cap. 31,"
    At the end of the same Section leave out the words "it does," and insert instead thereof the words "they do."
    Mr. BOOTH: I beg to move, at the end of the Clause, to add the following Subsection:—
    "(3) That payments made for the salary of Members for the September quarter are to be made for that or the ensuing quarter in the case of hon. Members who are affected by this Bill, and shall be hereby authorised."
    I move this because I am not quite clear that the Bill puts this payment right. Of course I am prepared to accept the assurance of the Attorney-General that it does do so, if he can see his way to give it to the Committee. But it does seem to me, as a layman, that merely to provide that these hon. Members shall be deemed not to have vacated their seats is scarcely
    748
    strong enough language to convert a payment illegally made into a legal payment. At the end of September the Treasury sent out the salaries to hon. Gentlemen who, according to this Bill, were no longer Members of this House, and, indeed, are not now Members. It may be that this Bill puts that right. If so I think it might have done so in more specific terms, because it would be an unfortunate thing if an hon. Member who has accepted a commission and has served at the front were, on his return, to find himself subject to penalties in respect of this payment.
    Sir J. SIMON: The hon. Gentleman is quite right, if I may say so, to put the question, because I wish to have this matter cleared up beyond all doubt. I have done my best to consult the authorities at the Treasury and elsewhere, and if I had any doubt at all I should certainly accept his proposal. It can be understood in all quarters as beyond the slightest question that by passing, as I trust we shall do with unanimous assent, the Clause you, Sir, have put from the Chair, we shall undoubtedly by that secure the complete legality of these payments.
    Mr. BOOTH: In view of the statement, I ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.
    Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
    Question proposed, "That the Clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill."
    Mr. BOOTH: I desire to ask a question as to the first line of the Clause, which says "the acceptance of a commission as an officer." I want to know whether that will be held to include non-commissioned officers? One or two Members of this House have accepted appointments in the Forces as non-commissioned officers, and we should not treat those in any different way from that in which we treat commissioned officers.
    Sir J. SIMON: This Bill is designed to correct a piece of humour on the part of the law of the Constitution. It is the humorous position of the law that a man who accepts a commission as officer in His Majesty's Forces for active service is thereby enjoying an office of profit under the Crown. That is the joke. The law of the Constitution does not go to the length

    749
    of saying that a man who accepts a position in the Army as a private or non-commissioned officer is thereby accepting an office of profit, therefore it is not necessary to provide for that case. It is only necessary to provide for the case of a commissioned officer.
    Question put, and agreed to.

    CLAUSE 2.—(Short Title.)
    This Act may be cited as the House of Commons (Commissions in His Majesty's Forces) Act, 1914.
    Sir J. SIMON: I beg to move to add, at the end of the Clause, the following new Sub-section:—
    "(2) This Act shall not apply to any future Parliament or the Members thereof."
    This Amendment carries out an undertaking I gave on the Second Reading of the Bill. More than one hon. Member pointed out that if this Bill is to be treated as an emergency measure, it ought not to extend beyond the necessities of the present time.
    Mr. HOGGE: Does that cover the possibility of the present Parliament going beyond the period of the Parliament Act? It occurred to me, while sitting here and reading the Amendment, that this is an emergency Bill, and I imagine it is possible, if the War is not over before this Parliament ends, that this Parliament will be extended for one year. Will the words cover that?
    Sir J. SIMON: I should think that even if the lifetime of the present Parliament were extended it would still remain this present Parliament.
    Mr. MORTON: It has been stated in the papers that if hon. Members purchase the new Loan Stock they will vacate their seats. Will you put that right in this Bill?
    Sir J. SIMON: I do not think I am able to give a legal opinion on that point now, but it has been mentioned already in Debate, and it is the intention of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, in the Bill which is being introduced in regard to the loan, to make provision in order to safeguard that.
    Mr. MORTON: In the meantime we must not take up any of the stock?
    Question, "That those words be there added," put, and agreed to.
    Clause, as amended, added to the Bill.
    Bill reported; as amended, considered; read the third time, and passed.
    The remaining Orders were read and postponed.
    Whereupon Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER, pursuant to the Order of the House of the 12th November, proposed the Question, "That this House do now adjourn."
    Question put, and agreed to.
    Adjourned accordingly at Four minutes before Five o'clock, till Monday next, 23rd November.