Commons Sitting of 21 May 1914

Preamble
The House met at a Quarter before Three of the clock, Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.

PRIVATE BUSINESS.
Provisional Order Bills (Standing Orders applicable thereto complied with),—Mr. SPEAKER laid upon the Table Report from one of the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, That, in the case of the following Bills, referred on the First Reading thereof, the Standing Orders which are applicable thereto have been complied with, namely:—
Gas and Water Provisional Orders (No. 2) Bill.
Gas Provisional Orders (No. 3) Bill.
Ordered, That the Bills be read a second time To-morrow.
Brecon and Merthyr Tydfil Junction Railway Bill (by Order),
Consideration, as amended, deferred till Monday next, at a Quarter-past Eight of the clock.
Wadhurst and District Gas Bill (by Order),
Consideration, as amended, deferred till Tuesday, 9th June.
Middlesex County Council (Western Road and Improvements and Finance) Bill (by Order),
Stone Gas and Electricity Bill [Lords] (by Order),
Consideration, as amended, deferred till To-morrow.
Great Eastern Railway Bill [Lords] (by Order),
Second Reading deferred till To-morrow.
Trade Boards Act Provisional Order Bill (by Order),
Read a second time, and committed.
Local Government Provisional Orders (No. 13) Bill (by Order),
Local Government Provisional Order (No. 11) Bill (by Order),
Second Reading deferred till To-morrow.

TRADE REPORTS (ANNUAL SERIES).
Copies presented of Diplomatic and Consular Reports, Annual Series, Nos. 5268, 5270, and 5272 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
SHOPS ACT, 1912.
Copies presented of Orders made by the Councils of the counties of Essex and Worcestershire and confirmed by the Secretary of State for the Home Department [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.
IRISH UNIVERSITIES ACT, 1908.
Copy presented of Statute III. for University College, Galway [by Act]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 241.]
NAVY (OIL FUEL).
Copy presented of Agreement with the Anglo-Persian Oil Company, Limited [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
PRICES OF EXPORTED COAL.
Return presented relative thereto [ordered 9th March; Mr. Samuel Roberts]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 242.]
NATIONAL INSURANCE ACT.
Copy presented of Provisional Regulations, dated 19th May, 1914, made by the Insurance Commissioners, entitled the National Health Insurance (Claims for Exemption, Married Women) Regulations (England), 1914 [by Act]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 243.]

DEATH DUTIES (EQUIVALENT ANNUAL CHARGE ON INCOME).
Return ordered, "of Tables showing—

(1) For Estate Duty alone, in terms of an annual tax, expressed in pence per £, on income reckoned at four per cent., the relative burden in each category of the present tax on capital;

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(2) The amount of a terminable annuity costing £100 per £5 of annuity, expressed in pence per £1 of income reckoned at four per cent., to endure for 30 years (i.e., the average duration of a succession), which a successor would have to pay in order to discharge the Estate Duty on the passing of the property to him in place of raising the amount of the duty by way of capital mortgage of the property; and

(3) The amount of a terminable annuity upon a three per cent. basis, expressed in pence per £ of income reckoned at four per cent., to endure for 30 years (i.e., the average duration of a succession), which an owner would have to pay if he wished to provide the Estate Duty on the passing of the property on his own death."—[Mr. Austen Chamberlain.]

ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS.

  Peat Fuel.
  Mr. GINNELLasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he can obtain and make available at an early date reports from Consular officers in the countries of Northern Europe in which peat industries and technical schools in connection with them are carried on, comparing from the economical point of view, so far as they know, the supply and quality of peat in those countries with that lying unused in Ireland; its caloric and cash value as a fuel, giving, in English money, the prices of peat fuel and other fuels ready for use at the same place; the commercial value of other products made or obtained from peat; and such other information as they deem useful to persons desirous of introducing peat industries and peat schools in Ireland?
  The SECRETARY of STATE for FOREIGN AFFAIRS (Sir Edward Grey): Reports on the peat industry in Sweden and Norway were published in the "Board of Trade Journal" of 1st September, 1910, and the 2nd and 9th March, 1911, in addition to those previously published in the Journal of the Irish Department of Agriculture in June, 1902, and March, 1904. I could not undertake to instruct Consular officers to take the special steps that would be necessary
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  to obtain reports of so technical a nature as the hon. Member suggests, unless the necessity for doing so is confirmed by the Departments of His Majesty's Government immediately concerned.

  Japan (Coastal Trade).
  Sir J. D. REESasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what steps have been taken to obtain from Japan reciprocity in respect of coastal trade; and whether any advance has resulted, or is likely to result, from the recent visit of Mr. Monteath to Tokio?
  Sir E. GREY: The matter is still forming the subject of communication with the Japanese Government. I am not in a position to give any information as regards the results of Mr. Monteath's visit to Tokio. No doubt the recent change of Government in Japan has unavoidably delayed the expected answer from Japan to our last communication.

  Muscat (Rebellion).
  Sir J. D. REESasked what protection is afforded to the resident and other Europeans in Busra; and whether any special precautions are being taken in view of the rebellion at Muscat, the presence of a camp of Arabs near Busra, and the general condition of unrest in the Tigris district?
  Sir E. GREY: I am not aware that there is any need for the special protection of His Majesty's Consul and other Europeans at Basra. The master of a British steam-lighter was murdered on board his vessel in Basra Harbour on 8th February, and strong representations have been made to the Ottoman Government by His Majesty's Ambassador to spare no efforts to bring the guilty parties to justice. Those efforts have not so far been successful. I have received no information as to a state of general unrest in the Tigris region or as to affairs at Basra being effected by events at Muscat.
  Sir G. SCOTT ROBERTSONasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he has any information to give concerning the recent fighting in Muscat and the shelling of Barka; were there any casualties on board His Majesty's ships "Dartmouth" and "Fox" or amongst the British-Indian troops; and what is the present state of affairs at Muscat?
  The UNDER-SECRETARY of STATE for INDIA (Mr. Charles Roberts): A rebellion against the Sultan of Muscat has been in progress for nearly a year, and His Majesty's Government have been obliged to take measures for the protection of towns on the coast where they have important interests. During April the rebels occupied forts at Kuriyat and Barka, which His Majesty's ships bombarded at the request of the Sultan and dislodged the rebels. So far as I am aware there were no casualties on His Majesty's ships. British-Indian troops have not been engaged. According to my latest information, which is, however, not more recent than 25th April, it was improbable that the rebels would again attack the coast towns. The situation in the interior was uncertain, though the rebels were reported to be disheartened.
  Colonel YATE: May I ask if proper precautions will be taken to prevent the looting of Muscat and other coast towns by rebels from the interior, as happened some years ago?
  Mr. C. ROBERTS: All proper precautions are being taken and will be taken.

  Consul-General at Constantinople, (Mr. Eyres's Speech).
  Sir J. D. REESasked whether Mr. Eyres is to return to Constantinople in a month, notwithstanding his speech, which has given offence to the Turks; whether the Grand Vizier has complained of Mr. Eyres's speech to the Foreign Office; and, seeing that in these circumstances Mr. Eyres cannot be a useful and acceptable Consul - General at Constantinople, whether he will now inform the House what action is to be taken in regard to this matter, which touches the discipline and character of our Consular service and the feelings of a friendly nation?
  Sir E. GREY: It is obvious that the report of the speech in question is a matter that has not been disregarded, as appears from the answer given last month, but the matter is still under consideration.
  Mr. PONSONBY: Is not Consul-General Eyres an exceedingly capable official?
  Sir E. GREY: Yes. He has had a long period of good service, it is quite true, but the report of the speech in question is a matter which cannot be disregarded in the special circumstances of the case of his present post.
  Mr. AUBREY HERBERT: Was not the speech a purely private one, and not intended to be reported at all?
  Sir E. GREY: I believe it was not intended to be reported, but once it was reported it became public property.
  Sir J. D. REES: If I had understood that the speech was not intended to be reported I should not have questioned the right hon. Gentleman again. I was unaware of that.
  Sir E. GREY: Oh, yes, that was the case, the misfortune arising from remarks which were never intended to be reported having been reported, and once reported they became public property, and we received representations from the Turkish Government on the subject.
  Mr. AUBREY HERBERT: Would not some expression of regret on the part of Mr. Eyres go some way towards soothing Turkish feelings?
  Sir E. GREY: I think the hon. Member will see by my statement that the matter is still under consideration that I meant to imply that it is a matter of some importance and delicacy, and the fact that the matter is still under consideration must be taken to mean that a definite solution has not yet been arrived at.

  Tampico Oilfields.
  Sir J. D. REESasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether the Carranza-Villa party in Mexico had removed the Dutch sailors who hitherto guarded some of the Tampico oilfields and has made a levy upon the Tampico Chamber of Commerce; and what action is being taken by the United States Government to counteract the effects of its refusal to recognise the de facto government of General Huerta?
  Sir E. GREY: I have no information as to the reported removal of Dutch sailors, but His Majesty's Ambassador at Washington, in consequence of a report received' by the Netherlands Minister at Washington that the Constitutionalists had demanded sums of money from the foreign colony at Tampico, called on the Secretary of State with the Netherlands Minister and represented to him the importance of this matter. The United States Secretary of State informed them that he had already telegraphed to General Carranza urging him to put a stop to such proceedings, and had instructed the United States Consul

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  at Tampico to communicate in a similar sense with the Constitutionalist General there.

  Balkans (Treatment of Macedonian Moslems).
  Sir J. D. REESasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he has received a representation from the London All-India Moslem League regarding the treatment of Macedonian Moslems at the hands of the Greeks in the Balkans, and asking that steps be taken to give effect to the provisions of the Treaty of Berlin in order to afford to Moslems in ceded territories protection and civil and religious freedom, and compensation for being driven from their homes; and, if so, what action will be taken by the Government in the directions indicated?
  Sir E. GREY: Such a representation has reached me, as have also communications in which precisely similar charges are brought by Greeks against the Turkish authorities in Thrace. His Majesty's Government have brought under the consideration of the Powers the question of a reaffirmation of the civil and religious rights of minorities provided for under the Treaty of Berlin. Complaints of ill-treatment of Greeks by Turks were brought unofficially to the notice of the Turkish Government, and I have already brought the complaints of the ill-treatment of Mussulmans by Greeks in the same way to the notice of the Greek Government.

  Chinese Loan.
  Mr. KINGasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether his attention has been given to the proposed loan of £6,000,000 sterling to the Chinese Government which is to be advanced by the Bethlehem Steel Trust of the United States, on the conditions that only one-third of the loan is to be paid in cash and two-thirds are to be exclusively devoted to the construction of naval docks; whether correspondence on this proposal has passed between the United States Government and the Foreign Office; and what is the policy of His Majesty's Government in this connection?
  Sir E. GREY: I have seen the reports in the Press; I have no information to the effect that the present Chinese Government intend to act as stated in the question. No correspondence or communica-
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  tion on the subject has passed between the United States Government and His Majesty's Government, and we are taking no action.
  Mr. KING: Will the right hon. Gentleman make certain inquiries in view of the very serious crippling of the power of China to perform her obligations, which this loan, if carried through, would imply?
  Sir E. GREY: That seems to me a matter for the United States Government and the Chinese Government.

  National Education (Ireland).
  Mr. O'DONNELLasked the Chief Secretary for Ireland the amount levied out of local rates by the education committees of public authorities in Ireland for various education purposes?
  The CHIEF SECRETARY for IRELAND (Mr. Birrell): Education committees in Ireland are not empowered to levy rates. The expenditure of these bodies, as shown in the accounts of local authorities for the year ended 31st March, 1913, amounted to £120,410, while the Grants-in-Aid received by such authorities during the same period in respect of such expenditure amounted to £40,478. The net expenditure, therefore, from local sources for the period was £79,932. The Local Government Board have no information as to the sums raised by local authorities by means of rates to meet the expenses of these committees.
  Mr. O'DONNELL: Does that sum include moneys raised for university education?
  Mr. BIRRELL: I do not know that it does. As far as I can make out, this figure of £120,000 odd is made up of £16,623 for expenses in connection with the Compulsory Education Act of 1892, and £103,000 odd for technical education.
  Mr. C. E. PRICE: May I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he will issue his answer among the Papers so that we can compare the figures with the figures for Scotland?
  Mr. BIRRELL: I will consider that.

  Local Taxation Account (Ireland).
  Mr. O'DONNELLasked the Chief Secretary for Ireland the total amount withheld during the past four years from public authorities in Ireland owing to

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  deficiency in the Local Taxation Account, and the amount withheld from county Kerry during the same years; and what he proposes to do to make good these amounts to the public bodies?
  Mr. BIRRELL: The total amount of the abatements from payments out of the Local Taxation (Ireland) Account to local authorities in Ireland during the four years ending 31st March last, owing to the insufficiency of the income of the account is £156,699, the proportion withheld from county Kerry being £7,033. These abatements were made in accordance with Section 58 (5) of the Local Government (Ire-land) Act, 1898.

  Estates Commissioners (Ireland).
  Mr. GINNELLasked the Chief Secretary for Ireland whether there has been any reduction of the staff, or of the expense, of the Estates Commissioners since 1911; if not, how is the fact accounted for that while in 1911 25,587 holdings were vested in the purchasers, only 20,861 were vested in 1913; if he can say, approximately, how many signers of purchase agreements are waiting to have their holdings vested on estates for sale in the all-cash, the part-cash, and part-stock, and the all-stock registers, respectively; how many of the latter have now been paying interest for seven years; and whether he can give any undertaking that the completion of sales will be expedited?
  Mr. BIRRELL: The Estates Commissioners' staff of inspectors has been reduced by five since 1911. The number of holdings vested and the amount of advances made during any given year are not a precise index of the work of the staff generally during that year, as they depend mainly upon the amount of cash available and the extent to which vendors choose to accept stock in lieu of cash. The number of holdings vested in 1911 was abnormally high, and the number vested in the year to 31st October, 1913, was greater than the average for the preceding five years. On 31st March last the number of holdings in direct sale cases awaiting vesting on the all-cash register was 63,023, part-cash, part-stock 13,011, all-stock 1,765, and cases under the Act of 1909–9,293. The Commissioners are now making advances in "all-cash" cases in respect of purchase agreements lodged in 1907, but there are still some agreements lodged prior to that year in respect of which interest in lieu of rent is being collected. The delay in
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  these cases is unavoidable, being due to questions of title, turbary, embankments, and other causes. All possible steps are being taken to expedite the completion of pending sales.
  Mr. GINNELL: The right hon. Gentleman has not answered that part of the question asking how many have been paying interest for seven years?
  Mr. BIRRELL: I have not given the exact figures, but there are, of course, a certain number of persons still paying-interest for seven years.

  Flooded Lands, County Kerry.
  Mr. O'DONNELLasked what steps the Estates Commissioners or the Congested Districts Board propose to take to compel the owners of the Pierce estate, Keel, county Kerry, to compensate Mr. O'Brien, Mr. O'Donnell, and others, whose lands have been seriously injured by flooding, due to breaches in a badly-kept embankment; and whether, seeing that these tenants have judicial tenancies with rents fixed, subject to the guarantee of the banks being kept in repair by the landlords, the Estates Commissioners will refuse to collect further interest till the embankment is put in repair and compensation given to the tenants for the loses they have suffered?
  Mr. BIRRELL: The owner of this estate instituted proceedings for sale direct to the tenants under the Irish Land Act, 1903, and purchase agreements at prices agreed upon between the parties were lodged with the Estates Commissioners. In their agreements the tenants contracted to pay interest in lieu of rent, and the Commissioners are under a statutory obligation to collect such interest, and have no power to comply with the suggestion contained in the question.
  Mr. O'DONNELLasked a question which was inaudible in the Reporters' Gallery.
  Mr. BIRRELL: That appears to be so, but it is no part of the agreement itself.

  Land Purchase (Ireland).
  Mr. PATRICK MEEHANasked the Chief Secretary for Ireland if he is aware that during the negotiations for the sale of the Warburton estate, Queen's County, which were carried on in the Land Judge's Court, one of the terms of conditions of

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  sale, clearly and definitely agreed on between the owners and the tenants and sanctioned by Mr. Justice Boss, was that a portion of untenanted land, known as the Pullogh meadows, should be allotted amongst the tenants on the townlands of Strahard, Barranaghs, and Garryinch whose holdings do not exceed £10 valuation; if the Estates Commissioners have not divided the Pullogh meadows in accordance with this arrangement, but have given allotments both to tenants whose valuations exceed £10 and to tenants who have not holdings on the before-mentioned townlands, and left without any allotments deserving tenants with holdings on the three townlands under £10 valuation who signed their purchase agreements on condition this land would be allotted amongst them; if these tenants have forwarded a petition to the Estates Commissioners strongly protesting against being deprived of their allotments and protesting against the action of the Estates Commissioners in not giving effect to the terms of sale which all parties concerned considered just and equitable; and whether the Estates Commissioners, on a reconsideration of the facts and circumstances, will give full effect to the agreement arrived at in Judge Ross's Court and divide the Pullogh meadows in accordance with the same?
  Mr. BIRRELL: When this estate was the subject of proceedings in the Land Judge's Court it was arranged in connection with its proposed sale under the Irish Land Act, 1903, that Pullough Meadows, so far as possible, were to be sold to the tenants on the townlands named whose holdings did not exceed £10 a year valuation, but the Court subsequently approved of a sale of the lands to the Estates Commissioners, who were to be informed of the proposed disposal of them. When dealing with the estate the Commissioners, after inquiry, approved of a scheme of allotment which they consider is a fair and equitable one. In framing this scheme they had regard to the circumstances of the tenants on the three townlands in question, to whom twenty-eight of the forty parcels of land provided under the scheme have been allotted. The reply to the concluding portion of the question is in the negative.
  Mr. GINNELLasked the Chief Secretary for Ireland, having regard to his
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  own recognition of the importance and urgency of the completion of land purchase in Ireland, if he will say why he does not proceed with the Bill he has introduced with that object, trusting to the constitutional parliamentary methods of ascertaining the views of the parties concerned; and, this being the last Session in which a full Irish representation will be here, whether he will make an effort to have the Bill passed?
  Mr. BIRRELL: The reason why I do not at once proceed with the Land Bill is that in the absence of some general measure of previously arrived at agreement no real progress with so complicated a measure would be possible.
  Mr. DELANYasked the Chief Secretary for Ireland whether Major Marsh, the present owner of the lands of Annegrove, Scott estate, Raheen, Queen's County, has notified the Estates Commissioners of his willingness to sell that part of the lands of Annegrove in his possession and has furnished them with maps of the same; and can he say what steps the Estates Commissioners intend taking in the matter?
  Mr. BIRRELL: The hon. Member presumably refers to the lands of Killeaney on the estate of R. M. Marsh, Queen's County, the owner of which recently wrote to the Estates Commissioners with reference to the sale of this estate to the Commissioners, and they informed him that if he desired to sell the lands referred to he should institute formal proceedings for the sale under the Land Purchase Acts. Up to the present the owner has not instituted such proceedings.
  Mr. DORISasked whether the Congested Districts Board have yet issued a final offer for the estate of Mr. D. G. Fitzgerald, Turlough, county Mayo; and, if not, what has caused the delay; and when the Board hope to be able to issue such offer?
  Mr. BIRRELL: The Congested Districts Board have issued a final offer for the purchase of this property.
  Mr. DORISasked whether the Congested Districts Board have yet come to an agreement for the purchase of the congested estate of Mr. F. C. Garvey, Murrisk Abbey, county Mayo, or what stage the negotiations for purchase have reached?
  Mr. BIRRELL: The Congested Districts Board have not yet agreed to purchase the estate referred to. They have issued an offer for the purchase of it, which has not yet been accepted.
  Mr. DORISasked whether the Congested Districts Board have yet issued offers for the congested estates of the Achill Mission and Mrs. Pike, situate in Achill, county Mayo; and, if not, what is the cause of the delay, the owners having long since expressed their willingness to sell?
  Mr. BIRRELL: The answer to the first paragraph is in the negative. The estates referred to have been valued and the Congested Districts Board have decided to make offers for their purchase which will be issued as soon as practicable.
  Mr. DORISasked whether the Congested Districts Board have yet come to an agreement with Mrs. Agnes O'Donnell for the purchase of her estate in Achill, county Mayo; and when they hope to complete the purchase?
  Mr. BIRRELL: The Congested Districts Board have not yet agreed to purchase the estate referred to, and they cannot at present say when it is likely that the purchase will be completed.
  Mr. FARRELLasked the Chief Secretary for Ireland whether Mr. James W. Bond informed the tenants around his Cooleraff farm that he was willing to sell the same to the Estates Commissioners for division amongst the people; whether any inspection of the holding took place, and what was the valuation put on it by the inspector; what price Mr. Bond demanded; and will he direct that the matter be reopened, as it is believed Mr. Bond will now be willing to reconsider the matter?
  Mr. BIRRELL: I would refer the hon. Member to my replies to his previous questions on this subject. If, as stated in the question, the owner is willing to sell the lands to the Estates Commissioners, he should institute proceedings for sale before them, but up to the present he has not done so. At this stage of the negotiations it would be contrary to the practice of the Commissioners to give the other particulars asked for in the question.
  Mr. FARRELL: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that this gentleman has
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  changed his view, and is now willing to reopen negotiations?
  Mr. BIRRELL: I am very glad to hear it.
  Mr. FARRELL: Will the right hon. Gentleman ask the inspector to go into the case again?
  Mr. BIRRELL: I will communicate with the inspector.

  Old Age Pensions.
  Mr. GINNELL: asked, having regard to the belief of old age pension officers that they are expected to prevent wherever possible the grant of pensions irrespective of statutory qualifications, and to their reluctance to reverse their own decisions, whether a fresh inspector will be sent to investigate each case in which a pension committee or sub-committee, with personal knowledge of the claimant, grants a pension a third time; and whether this will be done in the case of Mrs. Julia Peppard in the Coole district?
  Mr. BIRRELL: I am not aware that there is any foundation for the statements in the first part of the question. An inspector is sent whenever such a course seems necessary and likely to lead to the production of satisfactory evidence. The fact, however, of a claim having been passed three times by a local pension committee does not in itself seem a sufficient reason for sending an inspector. As regards Mrs. Peppard's claim, I would refer the hon. Member to the replies to his previous questions on the subject.

  Housing of Working Classes (Ireland).
  Mr. FARRELLasked the grounds upon which the Local Government Board decided to reduce the Grant under the Housing of the Working Classes Act, 1910, from £125, the amount due, to £45, to the Longford Urban District Council; and whether the Board will reconsider their decision and enlarge the Grant?
  Mr. BIRRELL: The income of the Housing Fund established by the Housing of the Working Classes (Ireland) Act, 1908, is limited, and as the operations undertaken by local authorities under the Act increase year by year the proportionate Grant-in-Aid from the fund to each such authority must accordingly decrease. For the year ended 31st March

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  last the income of the fund was only sufficient to meet about 36 per cent. of the liabilities of local authorities under the Act, whereas in the previous year upwards of 80 per cent. of the local housing charges was met from the fund. The Local Government Board have no funds at their disposal to supplement the Grant for urban housing.
  Mr. FARRELL: Can the right hon. Gentleman hold out any hope of increasing this fund?
  Mr. BIRRELL: I am looking about in all directions for any funds that may be available.
  Mr. WILLIAM REDMOND: When he is considering this question, will the right hon. Gentleman bear in mind the great good that is being done by this Act in erecting suitable houses?
  Mr. BIRRELL: Yes, Sir; there is no better Act in operation.

  Evicted Tenants (Ireland).
  Mr. PATRICK MEEHANasked the Chief Secretary for Ireland whether the Estates Commissioners will take into consideration the fact that Michael Pender, representative of an evicted tenant James Pender, through error did not lodge his application within the time provided by the Evicted Tenants Act, 1907, for reinstatement to the holding at Gurnaclea, Queen's County; and will he bear in mind the circumstances of his eviction and grant him an allotment of any untenanted land they may hereafter acquire in the district?
  Mr. BIRRELL: I would refer the hon. Member to the reply given to his question on this subject on Monday last. The Estates Commissioners are not prepared to take any action in this case.
  Mr. P. MEEHAN: Does not the right hon. Gentleman consider it a great hardship-to this evicted tenant who through error did not get his application in in time to be deprived of the advantage of land purchase?
  Mr. BIRRELL: That may be so, but the estate has been purchased by the occupiers, and they have dealt with it. I cannot interfere.

  DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE (IRELAND).

    MULLINGAR CAP FACTORY.
    Mr. GINNELLasked the Vice-President of the Department of Agriculture (Ireland) if he will state, for the period from the establishment of the Department to the 31st March, 1914, the total cost to the State of the Department as such, as distinguished from the preexisting institutions over which it has been given control; the total of the contributions made in the period by the Department towards technical schemes and other purposes in Westmeath; the total of the contributions made in the period by local bodies there towards those schemes and purposes; and the population and area of tillage in that county at the beginning and at the end of the period; and if he will explain the fact that the Mullingar cap factory, the only new industry founded there in the period, has never received any sort of assistance from the Department or the local technical committee?
    Mr. T. W. RUSSELL (Vice-President of the Department of Agriculture, Ireland): With reference to the former portions of the question, I must refer the hon. Member to my previous reply given on the 13th instant. In regard to the Mullingar cap factory, the Department, in November, 1907, informed the County Westmeath Committee of Agriculture and Technical Instruction, that any proposals submitted for giving the managers of this factory the benefit of the provisions contained in the County Westmeath Technical Instruction scheme for the training of workers, would be considered by the Department. Since that date no further communication on the subject appears to have been received by the Department.

    PEAT INDUSTRIES.
    Mr. GINNELLasked if he will explain why the Department has so long left Ireland's natural resource of peat unworked and derelict, while certain Continental countries with inferior supplies and less favourable circumstances are enriching themselves with fuel, paper, oil, and other useful products from peat; whether this matter will be put on the agenda for the next meeting of the Council of Agriculture, and provide for the attendance thereat of persons experienced in peat industries and in the working of

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    technical peat schools and capable of explaining the requirements and probable cost of such institutions in Ireland; and whether in this matter the Vice-President can free himself from the coal interest, which defeated the previous attempt at a peat industry?
    Mr. RUSSELL: The Department do not undertake the working of peat deposits. They confine themselves to assisting private enterprise, in so far as such assistance seems practicable. For instance, in certain districts in Ireland, peat moss-litter is now being manufactured, and the Department have aided by supplying the services of a Dutch instructor to give instruction in the cutting of peat for moss-litter purposes. This assistance has had successful results. I do not think it necessary to adopt the hon. Gentleman's suggestion as to bringing the matter to the notice of the Council of Agriculture, but it is open to any member of the council to do so.

    AMERICAN MILDEW.
    PATRICK WHITEasked the Vice-President of the Department of Agriculture (Ireland), whether, in the event of it being necessary to destroy any more gooseberry bushes in consequence of the prevalence of American mildew, he will cause an estimate to be made of the loss of income to the owner by the destruction of the bushes and report it to the authority possessed of the power to award compensation?
    Mr. RUSSELL: The Department are not satisfied that any useful purpose would be served by the course suggested by the hon. Member, as compensation payable under the Destructive Insects and Pests Acts, 1877 and 1907, must be based upon the "value of the crop," and not upon the loss of income caused by its destruction. Moreover, Section 3 (Sub-section 4) of the Destructive Insects Act, 1877, expressly provides that the local authority (i.e., the county council) may, if they think fit, require the value of the crop to be ascertained by their officers, or by arbitration.
    Mr. P. WHITEasked the Vice-President whether Sub-section (1) of Section 1 of the Destructive Insects and Pests Act, 1907, gives the Department power to make an Order directing the payment of compensation with the consent of the local authority for any gooseberry bushes that may be destroyed in consequence of the
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    prevalence of American mildew; and, if so, whether, having regard to the number of poor people who have suffered in consequence of the application of the Act, and who are not in a position to take the necessary steps to obtain compensation, he will communicate with the various local authorities where bushes have been destroyed, or are to be destroyed, with the view of obtaining their consent to award compensation and, if the local bodies are agreeable to make the payment, that the Board shall make the Order directing the payment of compensation?
    Mr. RUSSELL: The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. As regards the second part, the Department are considering the question of issuing a circular to the county councils intimating their willingness to make an Order of the nature referred to by the hon. Member in the event of the county councils consenting to pay compensation.
    Mr. PATRICK WHITEasked the Vice-President whether any of his officers have prescribed spraying of gooseberry bushes as a remedy for the removal of American mildew, and with what success; and whether any of the bushes so treated had to be afterwards destroyed?
    Mr. RUSSELL: The Department's officers have not at any time prescribed spraying as a remedy for American gooseberry mildew, but when the disease was first dealt with by the Department spraying and pruning were in some instances permitted as an experiment to ascertain whether such treatment would effectively control the disease. From the results of the experiments so far carried out, the Department are of opinion that the only effective method of preventing the spread of the disease is to have the diseased bushes destroyed. A number of bushes treated experimentally have had, in consequence, to be burned.

  GOVERNMENT OF IRELAND BILL.

    ULSTER VOLUNTEER DRILL.
    Mr. HUGH LAWasked the Chief Secretary if he is aware that on the night of the 27th April, Colonel Huddleston, Drumaboden, Kilmacrenan, county Donegal, when returning from an Ulster Volunteer drill, was met by some children who shouted Home Rule; whether Colonel Huddleston then produced a revolver and pointed it at them,

    2119
    shouting to them to come on; whether a sergeant of police found it necessary to intervene; and whether the Government propose to take any action to discourage the carrying of arms on the public roads?
    Mr. BIRRELL: The facts are generally as stated, but the gentleman referred to is a Mr. Huddleston, a retired Indian Civil servant. When unlicensed persons are found carrying arms proceedings are taken against them, but there is no power to prevent persons with a licence from carrying arms.
    Mr. W. A. REDMOND: Will the right hon. Gentleman say whether his licence will be taken away from this person who has behaved in such a manner on the King's highway?
    Mr. BIRRELL: No, Sir. He seems certainly a very foolish person, and, if I were to deprive him of his arms, I should think it would be a great advantage to the community.
    Mr. W. A. REDMOND: It would be a very foolish thing if he happened to shoot the children?
    Mr. BIRRELL: It would be.

    AMENDING BILL.
    Mr. BUTCHERasked the Prime whether the Bill to amend the Government of Ireland Bill will be introduced into the House of Commons or the House of Lords; and whether he will state on what date such Bill will be introduced?
    Lord ROBERT CECILalso asked the Prime Minister when he proposes to introduce the amending Bill to the Government of Ireland Bill?
    The PRIME MINISTER (Mr. Asquith): It is the intention of the Government that this Bill should be introduced in the first instance in another place, I am not able to name the date.
    Lord ROBERT CECIL: Why do the Government propose to introduce this Bill in the House of Lords and not in the House of Commons?
    The PRIME MINISTER: I will explain that in the course of the Debate.
    Mr. HOGGE: Will the amending Bill be introduced in the other House before the House of Lords has considered the Bill as it leaves the House of Commons?
    The PRIME MINISTER: That is a matter which the other House will have to determine.
    Mr. BUTCHER: Will the right hon. Gentleman either introduce the Bill or explain the substance of it before the Whitsuntide Recess?
    The PRIME MINISTER: I have said the Bill will be introduced in the House of Lords. [HON. MEMBERS "Will it be before the Whitsuntide Recess?]
    Mr. GINNELL: Will the Prime Minister inform the House whether he has received from any representative body in Ireland any petition, memorial, resolution or request of any sort for an amending Bill excluding Ulster, or any part of Ulster, from the Home Rule Bill?
    The PRIME MINISTER: I cannot say I have.
    Mr. G. FABER: Will the House of Commons have an opportunity of becoming aware of the contents of the amending Bill before the Third Reading of the Government of Ireland Bill passes in the House of Commons?
    The PRIME MINISTER: That matter will be raised in the Debate on the Bill.
    Mr. BONAR LAW: If it is to be explained in Debate, may I ask the right bon. Gentleman if he or some of his colleagues propose to open the discussion so that we may be aware of the terms when the discussion begins?
    The PRIME MINISTER: No, Sir. I do not propose to do that. I think it is a matter which can be discussed in Debate.
    Mr. BONAR LAW (at a later stage): May I ask the Prime Minister whether he will not reconsider the answer he gave a little while ago in regard to the amending

    2121
    Bill? Does it not appear to him unfair that the House of Commons should be asked to discuss the Third Reading of the Home Rule Bill without a knowledge of what the real proposals of the Government are?
    The PRIME MINISTER: I have already said that in the considered opinion of the Government the amending Bill ought to be introduced in another place. It would be contrary to all Parliamentary precedent to anticipate such a statement at this stage.
    Mr. BONAR LAW: Was I mistaken in thinking that the right hon. Gentleman said that the terms would be mentioned in the Debate?
    The PRIME MINISTER: No, Sir, I did not say that. What I said or intended was that we will give reasons in the course of the Debate for introducing the amending Bill.
    Mr. HOGGE: Is it not also contrary to all Parliamentary precedent to introduce an amending Bill in another place to a Bill we are discussing in the House of Commons?
    The PRIME MINISTER: I am sorry I cannot say what is or what is not contrary to Parliamentary precedent. The circumstances of the case are very exceptional.
    Lord HUGH CECIL: Can the right hon. Gentleman state why he desires to maintain such strict secrecy until we have read the Home Rule Bill the third time?
    The PRIME MINISTER: We will have an opportunity in the course of the Debate of giving our reasons.
    Lord HUGH CECIL: Will you use the opportunity?
    The PRIME MINISTER: Yes.
    Lord HUGH CECIL: Will the right hon. Gentleman give the explanation now?

    ULSTER (EXCLUSION).
    Mr. F. HALLasked the Prime Minister if any steps have yet been taken to ascertain whether an agreement
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    can be arrived at on the Government of Ireland Bill by providing for the permanent exclusion of Ulster from the operation of the Bill?
    The PRIME MINISTER: I would refer the hon. Member to what I have stated in the House on the subject of the Government of Ireland Bill, to which I can add nothing at present.
    Mr. F. HALL: Has the right hon. Gentleman yet received the authority of the hon. and learned Member for Water-ford (Mr. J. Redmond) that he will agree to the total exclusion of Ulster?

    MILITARY FORCES.
    Mr. F. HALLasked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether, as the result of his inquiries, Sir Nevil Macready has made any recommendations with a view to the strengthening of the military forces at present stationed in Ireland; and if his Reports on the matter will be made public?
    The PRIME MINISTER: I am not prepared to make public the contents of Sir Nevil Macready's reports.

  POST OFFICE.

    EMPLOYMENT OF EX-SOLDIERS.
    Mr. WORTHINGTON EVANSasked the Chief Secreary for Ireland how many of the ex-soldiers appointed through the general post office, Londonderry, for duty in the city or in the postal area administered by the postmaster of Londonderry were appointed through the employment register kept by the recruiting officer, Ebrington Barracks, Londonderry; and, if not appointed through that agency, upon whose recommendation were they selected?
    The POSTMASTER-GENERAL (Mr. Hobhouse): My right hon. Friend has asked me to reply to this question. I am having inquiry made, and will communicate with the hon. Member.

    POSTAL SERVICE (DURHAM).
    Mr. WINGasked the Postmaster-General to what extent the various grades in the postal service in the county of Durham will benefit by recent Grants, stating

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    grade and increased remuneration of each class and aggregate amount for the whole county?
    Mr. HOBHOUSE: The postal service is not organised by counties, and the information desired could not be given without much trouble and expense.

    ENGINEERING BRANCH.
    EARL Of RONALDSHAYasked the Postmaster-General why a number of officers in the engineering branch of the Post Office were passed over in the engineering revision of 1911; is it his intention to rehabilitate them; and, if so, when?
    Mr. HOBHOUSE: The officers to whom he refers were not considered by their superior officers to be as well qualified as those who were selected for inclusion in the new class of assistant engineers. The claims of all officers who are regarded as qualified for promotion are considered as suitable vacancies arise.
    EARL of RONALDSHAY: Is it not a fact that a large number of these men have since been rehabilitated, and on what ground?
    Mr. HOBHOUSE: All their qualifications were considered, first of all by the then engineer in chief, and subsequently by a small committee. Certain men were considered to be qualified for promotion at once, and others stood over. From those who stood over selections are made as occasion arises.
    Mr. JOHN WARDasked the Postmaster-General, with reference to the engineering revision of 1911, in view of the fact that a considerable number of appointments to the class of assistant engineers have been made since 1911, and that of these only nine have been given to redundant officers, will he say exactly what is meant by the oft-repeated statement that due consideration will be given to these redundant men as suitable vacancies arise?
    Mr. HOBHOUSE: Of the twenty-nine vacancies on the class of assistant engineers, for which second-class engineers were eligible, nine have been filled by selection from the latter class; the remaining vacancies have been filled from the competitions held in November, 1912, and August, 1913. It was not practicable in the interest of the service to assign a
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    larger proportion of the vacancies to the second-class engineers, but I look forward to promoting whenever circumstances permit such of them as are reported to me to be qualified.

    TELEPHONE SERVICE.
    Mr. BURGOYNEasked the Postmaster-General if he has considered the advisability of publishing monthly supplements to the telephone directory, and what decision he has arrived at?
    Mr. HOBHOUSE: The practice of issuing regular supplements to telephone directories has been tried and abandoned by many telephone administrations throughout the world, including the British Post Office and the National Telephone Company, Very few telephone subscribers will refer to the supplement. Arrangements are made to keep lists of subscribers with daily corrections and additions at telephone exchanges in order that information as regards subscribers' numbers may be afforded on application there. These arrangements seem best to meet practical requirements.
    Mr. REDDYasked the Postmaster-General what stops have been taken to establish a telephone service in Birr; whether he is aware that it is nearly twelve months since the matter was supposed to be arranged; and will he state what is the cause of this delay in setting up the service in this town?
    Mr. HOBHOUSE: Sufficient support has been obtained to justify the provision of an Exchange at Birr, but there is difficulty in arranging for its accommodation and for attendance. I hope, however, that a solution of this difficulty will shortly be found.
    Mr. REDDY: When?
    Mr. HOBHOUSE: Shortly.
    Lord ROBERT CECILasked how many girls of the probationer class are employed in the Manchester Telephone Exchange at a wage of 5s. a week, of what age they are, what hours they work, and what is the class of work which they do?
    Mr. HOBHOUSE: Five girl probationers are employed in the Manchester Trunk Telephone Exchange at a wage of 5s. a week, rising by increments of 1s. a week to 8s. a week. The limits of age for appointment are fourteen to sixteen. The normal hours of duty are thirty-six

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    weekly. The girl probationers at Manchester are mainly employed in collecting and distributing telephone tickets, but in order to afford them relief from continuous standing they are also employed on simple ticket sorting and switching work.

    RURAL POSTMEN (IRELAND).
    Mr. GINNELLasked the Postmaster-General if he will state the approximate number of young rural postmen and boys in Ireland now required to spend most of each day on a roadside with no official duty; what steps have been taken to prevent smoking, reading of newspapers, betting, and other vicious habits to which this life conduces; whether he will offer rewards for the learning of shorthand, a second language, or any accomplishment useful in the postal service; and, if not, if such rewards are provided locally for an efficient knowledge of Gaelic, whether he will give facilities for competitions and favourable service records to the winners?
    Mr. HOBHOUSE: The number of rural postmen in Ireland who have to wait for a substantial period at the terminal point of their outward journey could not be ascertained without wide inquiry, which would not be of any commensurate benefit. Huts, or other means of shelter, are provided for them. I do not think it desirable to interfere with the manner in which these officers employ their spare time, nor am I prepared to entertain the suggestion made in the last part of the hon. Member's question.
    Mr. R. HARCOURTasked a question which was not heard in the Reporters' Gallery.
    Colonel YATE: Instead of enlisting these boys will the right hon. Gentleman give these posts to old soldiers?
    Mr. HOBHOUSE: They would be persons with part-time employment.

    GIRLS' WAGES.
    Mr. LANE-FOXasked whether girls are employed at a wage of 5s. a week in the Post Office; if so, whether this is whole-time employment, and up to what age is it given?
    Mr. HOBHOUSE: The starting pay of female learners in the provinces is 5s. a week, but wages above this figure are given when the first qualifying standard
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    is reached and at later stages. The hours of duty are forty-two a week. The limits of age for entry to the class are fifteen to eighteen, and on or before the completion of two years' service every learner, if satisfactory in all respects, is offered an established appointment. Girl probationers also in some cases start at 5s., but increases are given after one year's service. The limits of age for entry are fourteen to sixteen, and all girl probationers who give satisfaction and can obtain a Civil Service certificate are eligible for the situation of telephonist or some other permanent employment in the Post Office after they have reached the age of sixteen and are given permanent employment before they reach nineteen years of age.
    Mr. COOPER: Is it a fact that girls up to the age of sixteen are taken on by the Post Office at the rate of 5s. a week?
    Mr. HOBHOUSE: If they are taken on at that age they are taken on as persons with no knowledge at all about the business, and are practically apprentices.
    Mr. LANE-FOX: What is the next step in wages?
    Mr. HOBHOUSE: There are too many scales to carry in one's head. If the hon. Member will put a question I will answer it.
    Lord ROBERT CECIL: How many of these girls are there at this particular wage?
    Mr. HOBHOUSE: I could not say without notice.
    Mr. CLYNES: Can the Postmaster-General explain the astonishment of hon. Members opposite on finding that wages are now being paid in the Postal Service which are higher than the wages paid when they were in office?

    AMERICAN MAILS (HOURS FOR POSTING IN LONDON).
    Mr. HAMILTON BENNasked what are the latest hours for posting letters at the Western, South-Western, and West Central district offices in London for dispatch by the American mail leaving Liverpool by Cunard steamers sailing at 2.30 p.m. on Saturdays?
    Mr. HOBHOUSE: The latest hours for posting letters for the American mails dispatched from Liverpool by Cunard

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    steamers on Saturdays are At the Western District Office and Western Central District Office 10.25 p.m., and at the South-Western District Office 10.15 p.m. on Fridays. The possibility of affording a later posting is being kept in view. I ought to mention that letters can be posted on Saturday morning at the General Post Office up to two o'clock a.m. without a late foe and up to three o'clock a.m. with a late fee, and that at Euston Station posting can be effected as late as a quarter-past nine a.m. on Saturday with a late fee. Little advantage is at present being taken of the special facilities for late posting.
    Mr. HAMILTON BENN: May I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he thinks it reasonable that the time for posting should close about eleven hours before the train leaves Euston?
    Mr. HOBHOUSE: The hon. Gentleman forgets that a very considerable amount of time is taken in sorting the very heavy correspondence. It requires thousands of bags to carry the millions of letters which leave on that particular day, and it is impossible to make the hours of posting later unless we limit the amount of work done by the Post Office, so that some letters might be posted later. There would be very little advantage in doing that.

    ADJUSTMENTS.
    Mr. TOUCHEasked whether, in calculating the immediate cost of the recommendations of the Holt Committee, the adjustments due for services prior to the 1st February have been calculated in the £643,000 announced as the estimated cost; whether these adjustments were moneys actually earned under the old conditions; whether the amount of the adjustments would have been paid even if the Holt Committee had not reported, although at different dates; and whether these amounts ought to be deducted from the actual increased money which accrues to the staff in order to arrive at the net increased cost in this financial year?
    Mr. HOBHOUSE: The amounts referred to have not been included in the estimated cost of the Holt revision.

    Foot-and-Mouth Disease.
    Mr. HACKETTasked whether the Department of Agriculture (Ireland) will
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    allow a pig market to be held in Thurles on Thursday, 28th May, or Monday, 1st June; and whether the Department will allow the monthly horse, cattle, and sheep fair to be held on Tuesday, 2nd June?
    Mr. RUSSELL: The Department informed a deputation from Thurles on the 19th instant that it was intended, if nothing untoward occurred in the meantime, to withdraw the restrictions so as to allow a pig market to be held there on Friday, 29th instant; and it was understood that the market would be advertised for this date. The holding of cattle and horse fairs on a later date will be allowable if there is no further outbreak of disease.

    Economic Commission (South Africa).
    Sir RICHARD COOPERasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies if he will issue to Members the recent Report of the Economic Commission appointed by the Government of South Africa?
    The SECRETARY Of STATE for the COLONIES (Mr. Harcourt): I do not propose to reprint the Report, but I will have copies placed in the Library.
    Sir R. COOPER: Will the right hon. Gentleman let me have a copy?
    Mr. HARCOURT: I will place ten copies in the Library.

    Office of Works (Scotland).
    Mr. CHARLES PRICEasked the hon. Member for St. George's-in-the-East, as representing the First Commissioner of Works, whether an Order has been issued to dismiss all tradesmen who are sixty years of age or over who are connected with the Office of Works in Edinburgh; and, if so, upon whose authority this has been done?
    Mr. WEDGWOOD BENN (Lord of the Treasury): No such general instructions have been issued.
    Mr. HOGGE: What becomes of these men?
    Mr. W. BENN: They are put to work suitable for them, if any is available. They are not employed by the Office of Works, but by private contractors.

  NATIONAL INSURANCE ACT.

    POTATO PICKERS AND GATHERERS.
    Mr. BUTCHERasked the hon. Member for St. George's-in-the-East, as representing the Insurance Commissioners, whether he will state for what specific reason, if any, potato pickers are exempt from insurance under the National Insurance Act, while potato gatherers are not exempt; and whether he will communicate with the President of the Board of Agriculture with a view to remedying this state of affairs?
    Mr. W. BENN: Employment as a potato picker is only excepted from compulsory insurance where the person employed is not already an insured person.
    Mr. BUTCHER: Can the hon. Gentleman say what is the difference between these people?
    Mr. W. BENN: I do not know that there is any difference.
    Mr. BUTCHER: Then why is one exempt from the Insurance Act and the other not?
    Mr. W. BENN: The answer is that one is exempt and the other is not.
    Mr. BUTCHER: But are they not both in exactly the same position?
    Mr. W. BENN: They are in precisely the same position. Where a man is usually an insured person an effort is made to keep him in insurance, but when he is not an insured person he is not brought into insurance in respect of this employment.

    MINERS' NYSTAGMUS.
    Mr. WEDGWOODasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether his attention has been called to the evidence given by Dr. Shufflebotham in his Milroy lectures before the Royal College of Physicians, that miners' nystagmus is principally due to the bad illumination of mines; whether the Home Office concur in his views on this subject; and whether any steps can be taken to remedy the evil in connection with the National Insurance Act or otherwise?
    The SECRETARY of STATE for the HOME DEPARTMENT (Mr. McKenna): I have seen a report of the lectures referred to. The researches made in recent
    2130
    years appear to point strongly to the conclusion that working in insufficient light is the main, if not the sole, cause of miners' nystagmus, and this point was kept in view when it was decided to impose photometric tests for all types of safety lamp approved under the Coal Mines Act, 1911. I am advised that as a result of these tests and of the increasing use of electric lamps the illumination below ground is improving, and I trust that as this improvement continues, it will have a substantial effect in reducing the number of cases of nystagmus. Miners nystagmus is one of the diseases scheduled under the Workmen's Compensation Act.

  POST OFFICE CONTRIBUTORS.
  Mr. F. HALLasked the Prime Minister if it is proposed to introduce legislation in the present Session to improve the position of Post Office contributors under Part I. of the National Insurance Act and to make provision for casual labour?
  The PRIME MINISTER: As regards the first point in the question, it is proposed to introduce legislation for dealing with deposit contributors this Session; the second point was dealt with in the amending Act last Session.

  Coal Mines (Temperature).
  Mr. WEDGWOODasked the Home-Secretary whether official Reports are available as to the wet-bulb temperatures in mines; whether inspectors or deputies are required to call the attention of mining managers to any wet-bulb temperature over 70 deg. Fahrenheit; and whether there is any legal limit set to the temperatures under which miners shall be allowed to work?
  Mr. McKENNA: Provision is made in the Coal Mines Act and Regulations under it for the wet-bulb temperatures in all coal mines to be duly ascertained and recorded. Hygrometers are required to be kept in the main intake and main return near the shafts; they are to be read by a responsible official, daily in the case of the intake, weekly in the case of the return; and the readings are to be recorded in a book which is kept at the office of the mine. The answer to the last part of the question is in the negative.

  Women Suffrage (Deputation to His Majesty).
  Mr. WEDGWOODasked the Home Secretary whether it is his intention to provide police protection for the deputation of women which is to wait upon the King on Thursday next?
  Mr. McKENNA: The King is not receiving any deputation of women to-day. If any body of men or women should improperly attempt to approach His Majesty, the police will enforce the law, and maintain order.
  Mr. KING: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that Mrs. Pankhurst is heading this deputation? If she is able to do that, is she not equally able to undergo her sentence?
  Mr. McKENNA: I am unable to answer the first part of the question, and therefore the second part does not arise.

  Prison Regulations (Medical Operations).
  Mr. WEDGWOODasked the Home Secretary under what law or regulation the consent of a prisoner has to be obtained before an operation can be performed by the prison or other doctors?
  Mr. McKENNA: There is no express provision of the law, and no Regulation requiring the consent of a prisoner; but it is the invariable practice to obtain prisoner's consent before a surgical operation is performed in prison.

  Government Officials (Investments and Speculations).
  Mr. JAMES HOPEasked the Prime Minister whether he is prepared to issue a Treasury Minute embodying the principles laid down by himself last year with regard to investment and speculation by the holders of public office?
  The PRIME MINISTER: In my statement of 19th June, 1913, to which the hon. Member refers, I expressed doubt as to whether it was practicable to lay down a code of rules of conduct for Ministers and persons in official positions with regard to these matters, although I was able to lay down certain principles governing typical cases. I think it is sufficient that I should now reaffirm those principles for the guidance of the Departments, and I see no necessity for, or advantage in, issuing a Treasury Minute on the subject.
  Mr. JAMES HOPE: May I take it that the Government are prepared to take no steps whatever to avert a repetition of the scandals in which three of their members were involved last year?

  Asylums Officers (Employment, Pensions, and Superannuation) Bill.
  Viscount WOLMERasked the Prime Minister whether his attention has been called to the recent unrest among asylum attendants in different parts of the country, particularly in Lancashire; and whether he will afford facilities this Session for the passage of the Asylums Officers (Employment, Pensions, and Superannuation) Bill, which has already been approved by the Select Committee appointed to consider it in 1911?
  The PRIME MINISTER: I am informed that there is no widespread unrest, though some dissatisfaction does undoubtedly exist. As regards the latter part of the question, the Government are favourable to the principles of the Bill, and will consider whether the business of the House will admit of facilities for its progress.

  Scottish Affairs (Ministers in Edinburgh).
  Mr. F. HALLasked the Prime Minister if, in view of the statement by the Secretary for Scotland on 15th May as to the desirability of having Ministers in Edinburgh dealing with purely Scottish affairs, he is now in a position to state when the Government proposes to introduce a Bill to deal with this subject?
  The PRIME MINISTER: I would refer the hon. Member to the reply which I gave yesterday to the hon. Member for North Aberdeenshire on this subject, to which I can add nothing.
  Mr. F. HALL: Has any Bill yet been drafted dealing with this subject?
  The PRIME MINISTER: That is a question which I do not think I am bound to answer.
  Mr. PIRIE: Are we to understand, as a pledge was given that this Government would introduce a Bill dealing with this matter, and as the life of this Government will come to an obligatory end next Session—[HON. MEMBERS; "No!"]—I mean that this Parliament will come to an end next year, that the Government, before next year or next Session, will

  2133
  introduce a Bill to carry out the pledge which was distinctly given to the Scottish people?
  The PRIME MINISTER: The hon. Member's question involves a number of hypotheses.
  Mr. PIRIE: No, Sir, none!
  Mr. PRINGLE: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the Secretary for Scotland definitely stated that the Government were drafting a Bill dealing with the Government of Scotland, and can he say whether that Bill is now completed?
  The PRIME MINISTER: No, Sir, I cannot. [HON. MEMBERS "Is it begun?"]
  Mr. PIRIE: Are we to understand that the Government propose to ask the Scottish people to give their votes in support of this Government if they have not carried out their elementary and first duty? [HON. MEMBERS "What about your vote?" and "Come over to our corner."] We will have it out of them yet.

  Employment of Troops (Civil Disturbances).
  Mr. J. WARDasked the Prime Minister when he can give the House the kind of Committee which he proposes to set up relating to the use of the military in civil disturbances, together with the names of the Committee and the date when it is proposed to hold the first meeting?
  The PRIME MINISTER: As I stated yesterday, I think a Select Committee of the House is the most suitable form of inquiry, and I am doing what I can to expedite its appointment. I am not yet in a position to give the names of the members or the date of the first meeting.
  Sir J. D. REES: Is not the Committee to deal with the use of arms by the military and not the use of the military as stated in the question?
  The PRIME MINISTER: I think both.

  BRITISH ARMY.

    TROOPS IN IRELAND.
    Mr. GINNELLasked the Secretary of State for War what is the present numerical strength of the British Army in Ireland, and how distributed; what is its intended strength and distribution at the beginning of July next; at what time the alteration is to be made; and what steps
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    are being taken to remove from positions of control in the Army in Ireland officers whose class and party sympathies are known to be in conflict with probable military duty in Ireland?
    The PRIME MINISTER: The strength of the Regular forces in Ireland, according to the latest Returns, is approximately 24,400. Their distribution will be found in the Army List. I cannot state what the numbers or distribution will be in July. As regards the last part of the question, there is no reason to suppose that any officers will refuse to carry out such duties as they may be called upon to perform.
    Mr. GINNELL: Does that answer mean that is rests with the Irish people themselves to take measures for their own protection?

    ROYAL FLYING CORPS.
    Mr. JOYNSON-HICKSasked the Secretary of State for War whether he would give the names of the officers of the Royal Flying Corps to whom he charges the hon. Member for Brentford with writing asking for information and the dates of his letters?
    The FINANCIAL SECRETARY to the WAR OFFICE (Mr. Harold Baker): I have communicated with the officers concerned, and they ask that their names should not be given. I propose to respect their wishes.
    Mr. JOYNSON-HICKS: May I say that as the hon. Member has made a charge against me of communicating with these officers, and as he declines to give the names, I shall ask permission of the House either on Monday or another convenient date to make a personal explanation on the matter?
    Mr. JOYNSON-HICKSasked the Secretary of State for War whether his attention has been called to the charges made by the hon. Member for Brentford against the organisation of the Royal Flying Corps on the 24th March last and of his request for an inquiry; whether his attention has been called to his predecessor's undertaking to make a full statement and a definite statement as to the request for an inquiry; and whether, in the interests of the safety of the flying officers, he will consider the advisability of making such statement without further delay?
    The PRIME MINISTER: Arrangements could be made, if desired, for an Army Vote to be put down for discussion at an early date. I need not add that considerations of safety engage the special attention of the War Office at all times.
    Mr. JOYNSON-HICKSasked the Secretary of State for War how many engines were entered for the aero-engine test at the Royal Aircraft Factory; how many have begun their test; and how many have broken down?
    Mr. H. BAKER: Fifty-three engines were originally entered for the competition, and twenty-eight were delivered to undergo the tests. I do not think it would be proper to give any information about the behaviour of engines until the tests are completed.
    Mr. JOYNSON-HICKSasked the Secretary of State for War whether the Inspection Department of the Royal Flying Corps is yet fully manned; and whether Regulations have yet been issued as to its duties?
    Mr. H. BAKER: The establishment of the Inspection Department has recently been increased, and is being filled up as trained inspectors and examiners become available. The answer to the second part of the question is, yes.

    RIFLE CORPS.
    Mr. BUTCHERasked the Secretary of State for War whether he is now in a position to state what he proposes to do to assist the rifle corps of the country, either by a money Grant or a grant of ammunition; and whether, in view of the fact that this matter has been under the consideration of the War Office for nearly two years and that nearly a year ago a definite decision on the subject was promised without delay, the time has now arrived for announcing such a decision?
    The UNDER-SECRETARY Of STATE for WAR (Mr. Tennant): I regret that I can at present add nothing to the answer given to the hon. Gentleman on this subject on the 25th February.
    Mr. BUTCHER: Is the hon. Member aware that this matter has been under discussion for two years, and that we were promised a year ago that we should be given a decision without delay?
    Mr. TENNANT: I am aware that the matter has been under discussion for
    2136
    some time, but I think that two years is rather an exaggeration. I am endeavouring to expedite the matter, and I hope to be able to make a statement before the end of the Session.

    ARMY ORDNANCE DEPARTMENT (EMPLOYÉS).
    Mr. WORTHINGTON EVANSasked the Secretary of State for War how many labourers and how many leading hands are employed by the War Office in the Army Ordnance Department at wages for labourers of 18s. 6d. and for leading hands at 20s. 6d. or at any other rates under 22s. a week?.
    Mr. H. BAKER: The overriding minimum recently approved for Post Office employès will be applied to these men. The hon. Member will, I hope, excuse me from inquiry into the numbers at the various stations.
    Mr. WORTHINGTON EVANS: Can the hon. Gentleman now say the numbers of those employed? This is the second time the question has been asked.
    Mr. F. HALL: Is it inconvenient for the hon. Gentleman to make a reply at the present time?

    MARRIAGES OFF THE STRENGTH.
    Mr. WORTHINGTON EVANSasked the Secretary of State for War when the Report on the conditions of soldiers married off the strength is to be published; and whether the Government have yet decided to adopt any and, if so, which of the recommendations in the Report?
    Mr. TENNANT: I am afraid I cannot yet make a statement on the subject, but I hope in a day or two to be able to convey some information.
    Mr. WORTHINGTON EVANS: What is the date of the Report which is going to be published?
    Mr. TENNANT: The Report is dated last December. I am quite aware that the Report was made in December, but the matter is still under consideration, and I hope the statement I have promised to the hon. Member will give the information.

    REDFORD BARRACKS (EDINBURGH).
    Mr. J. WARDasked the Secretary of State for War whether his attention has been called to a strike of navvies and labourers employed upon Redford

    2137
    barracks, Edinburgh; and, if so, can he give the cause of the same; and what action ho proposes to take to bring the dispute to a termination?
    Mr. H. BAKER: Yes, Sir. It appears that there is a disagreement between the association of employers and workmen as to the payment of car fares. The payment docs not fall within the Fair-Wages Clause, and I can only suggest that the parties should refer the matter to an arbitrator.
    Mr. J. WARD: Is it not the fact that the tram money to and from Edinburgh has been conceded by the contractors to all the higher paid workmen, and does not the hon. Gentleman think that the lower paid workmen are entitled to the first consideration in a matter of this kind?
    Mr. H. BAKER: That is a matter for agreement between the employers and the workmen.
    Mr. J. WARD: Will the hon. Gentleman suggest to the employers that this matter should be sent to arbitration?
    Mr. H. BAKER: I will certainly take any action that will promote a speedy settlement.

    Motor Car Headlights.
    Mr. FELLasked the Home Secretary if he will instruct the police to prosecute in the case of the first motor car which they find being driven at night in the Metropolitan area with headlights of a dazzling brightness, so that the question may be decided by the magistrate whether the car is or is not being driven to the common danger of the public?
    Mr. McKENNA: I would refer the hon. Member to the answer which I gave on the 23rd of April as to the legal position of the police in the matter. I do not think that proceedings could usefully be taken unless there were definite evidence that the driving of a car with dazzling headlights was an actual cause of danger. If a case arises in which such evidence is available, the question of proceedings will be considered.
    Mr. FELL: Will the right hon. Gentleman not go a little further and test the question of law. I believe the law is as stated in the question?
    Mr. McKENNA: No, I am advised that the hon. Gentleman is mistaken as to the law, and it would clearly be improper to begin proceedings in which the prosecutor himself believes that he had no case under the existing law; but if circumstances occur which lead the prosecutor to believe that there is evidence of public danger, the question of taking proceedings will be considered.
    Colonel YATE: Does not the right hon. Gentleman see that a dazzling light in the eyes of the driver prevents him from seeing a man crossing the road in front of him? Why wait for an accident?
    Mr. McKENNA: We are not waiting for an accident. If the hon. and gallant Gentleman will bring to our notice a specific case of what he describes as dazzling lights constituting a public danger, a prosecution in that case will be considered, but the fact of driving with a light which the hon. and gallant Gentleman considers dazzling does not of itself necessarily constitute a public danger. I should have thought the law was quite clear.
    Mr. WORTHINGTON EVANS: Does not the right hon. Gentleman know that even in the little Principality of Monaco headlights are prohibited?
    Mr. McKENNA: The hon. Member is much more familiar than I am with Monaco.

    Established Church (Wales) Bill.
    Viscount WOLMERasked whether, under the Established Church (Wales) Bill, the judgment in the case of Banister v. Thompson will still hold good if a similar case were to arise in any parish church of one of the Disestablished dioceses?
    Mr. McKENNA: The answer is in the negative. The Church in Wales, after Disestablishment, will be free to make its own arrangements in regard to its discipline.
    Viscount WOLMER: Am I to understand that the judgment referred to in my question will not hold good?
    Mr. McKENNA: Ecclesiastical law, as law, will not hold good in Wales after Disestablishment. The Church in Wales will be free to make its own regulations, and

    2139
    if the Church in Wales chooses to decide that the judgment shall hold good in Wales, then it will hold good.
    Viscount WOLMER: Will a parishioner, from the mere fact that he is a parishioner, have right against the Church?
    Mr. McKENNA: No, an individual parishioner will have no right against the Church in that the Church has decided itself to the contrary. The Church will decide its own discipline.

    Cost of Living (Foreign Countries and Colonies).
    Sir RICHARD COOPERasked the President of the Board of Trade which foreign and Colonial Governments have in recent years instituted inquiries into the causes of the rise in prices and cost of living; if it is proposed to institute an inquiry in this country; what proposals have been made for an international inquiry; and what is the attitude of the British Government to those proposals?
    The PRESIDENT of the BOARD of TRADE (Mr. Burns): The United States of America, New Zealand, and the Argentine Republic have published the results of inquiries into the causes of the rise in prices and cost of living, but the Royal Commission appointed by the Dominion of Canada last December has not yet reported. It is not, at present, proposed to institute a similar inquiry in this country. If a definite proposal were made by a foreign Government for an international inquiry, the matter would receive the careful consideration of His Majesty's Government.

    Merchant Shipping (Fees).
    Mr. CATHCART WASONasked the President of the Board of Trade whether the officers and members of ships' crews, on signing on or off articles at British Consulates and shipping offices at ports abroad, are debited with fees for so doing; if so, whether he will consider the desirability of abolishing these fees; or, otherwise, whether he will take steps in order that they may be made payable by the owners of the ships concerned?
    Mr. BURNS: The fee of 2s. charged at Consulates and Colonial shipping offices for the engagement or discharge of an officer or seaman is paid in the first instance by the master of the ship, but I believe it is a common practice for half the
    2140
    fee to be recovered from the officer or seaman concerned. There is nothing in the Merchant Shipping Acts to prohibit this. The question whether the fee should be abolished is primarily for the consideration of the Foreign Office or the Colonial Office, as the case may be. I will see that my hon. Friend's question is brought to the notice of my right hon. Friends.
    Mr. CATHCART WASONasked the President of the Board of Trade whether he can give any figures showing the receipts from fees connected with merchant shipping which have been collected by the British Consulate at New York during the past year; and whether he can give the proportion of such fees which have been paid by British officers and seamen on signing on or off articles at New York?
    The UNDER-SECRETARY of STATE for FOREIGN AFFAIRS (Mr. Acland): The total fees levied at New York in the year 1913–14 amounted to £5,845. It is not possible to distinguish between fees levied in connection with merchant shipping and other fees.

    Bullocks (Imports).
    Sir JOHN SPEARasked what was the number of bullocks imported into England and Wales from our Colonies and foreign countries during the years 1905 and 1913, respectively; and the weight of dead meat received during those years?
    Mr. BURNS: The number of oxen and bulls imported into the United Kingdom in 1905 from British Possessions was 163,812, and the number from foreign countries 398,125. Corresponding figures for 1913 were 1,982 from British Possessions and 9,859 from foreign countries. The total weight of dead meat of all kinds, except poultry and game, imported into the United Kingdom in 1905 from British Possessions was 4,100,000 cwts., and from foreign countires 14,579,000 cwts. In 1913 the figures were 6,776,000 cwts. from British Possessions and 16,502,000 cwts. from foreign countries. These figures include the imports through all ports in the United Kingdom. To prepare separate Returns for imports through ports in England and Wales only would involve considerable labour, which would not, I consider, be justified, seeing that meat consumed in one division of the United Kingdom may be imported through a port in another.

    Treatment of British-Canadian.
    Mr. HEWINS: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs a question, of which I have given him private notice, namely Whether his attention has been drawn to the statement made in the Press to-day that a British-Canadian is being held in a state of slavery on a plantation on the borders of Paraguay and Brazil; that he has made two attempts to escape, but was on each occasion recaptured and flogged; whether these statements correctly represent the facts; and what steps His Majesty's Government are taking in the matter in order to protect the King's subjects?
    Sir E. GREY: The report that has appeared in the Press has been sent me. I have telegraphed to the British Chargè d'Affaires at Buenos Aires to report the facts by telegraph, and am awaiting his reply. The question of what steps it would be possible or justifiable to take depends, of course, upon what are the facts.
    Mr. HEWINS: Will the right hon. Gentleman make a further statement on the subject?
    Sir E. GREY: When I get the facts I will make them known at the earliest opportunity.

    Dowlais Roman Catholic School.
    Mr. KEIR HARDIE: I beg to repeat the question which I put to the Home Secretary yesterday, namely Whether he is aware that twenty-eight parents of children belonging to the Dowlais Roman Catholic school have been fined or imprisoned for not sending their children to school; and whether, as the Board of Education has now agreed to hold an inquiry into the causes of the dispute between the local education authority and the parents, he will consider whether he can advise that all proceedings against the parents be suspended, and those now in prison be released, pending the result of the proposed inquiry?
    Mr. McKENNA: I have inquired by telegraph as to the facts of the case, and have come to the conclusion that it is desirable to recommend the immediate discharge of the ten prisoners now in prison for non-payment of fines. I understand that the magistrates and the chief constable are also of opinion, in view of the circumstances of the case, that that
    2142
    would be the most desirable course to pursue,
    Mr. KEIR HARDIE: May I ask if the answer also includes the sale under distress for non-payment of fines?
    Mr. McKENNA: I do not know that I have any power in that matter. I understand that the sale under distress warrants is not taking place.

LOCAL AND IMPERIAL TAXATION (SCOTLAND).

  PERSONAL EXPLANATION.
  The SECRETARY for SCOTLAND (Mr. McKinnon Wood): Mr. Speaker, with your permission, I desire to offer a very brief personal explanation as to an incident which occurred at Question Time yesterday. The hon. and gallant Member for North Aberdeen made a charge against me which amounted to an accusation of neglect of duty and discourtesy to the House. He said:—
  "May I ask this question on behalf of my hon. Friend? The Secretary for Scotland is nut here. He is absent, as usual; playing golf, I suppose."
  Of course, I am not accused of any serious offence. The question put yesterday by the hon. and gallant Member for North Aberdeen was not one standing in his name. It stood in the name of my hon. Friend the Member for the College Division of Glasgow (Mr. Watt). A question covering exactly the same point was on the Paper in the name of my hon. Friend the Member for the Bridgeton Division of Glasgow (Mr. MacCallum Scott), and was answered by my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister. On Tuesday an arrangement was made between my hon. Friend the Member for the Bridgeton Division and my Parliamentary private secretary that his question would not be asked yesterday. As, therefore, I had no question to answer I arranged for a conference at three o'clock on matters of very great importance to Scottish business. I am bound to say that that arrangement was faithfully observed by my hon. Friend the Member for the College Division. Why the hon. and gallant Member for North Aberdeen interfered in the matter it is not for me to say, but I think that it is for him to explain what justification he had for saying that he asked the question on behalf of my hon. Friend the Member for the College Division. The hon. and gallant Gentleman's suggestion as to the reason of my

  2143
  absence from the Chamber is without foundation. I was actually in the House engaged in the manner which I have stated.
  Mr. PIRIE: It is a well-known matter of everyday occurrence for a colleague to ask questions for another colleague—[HON. MEMBERS "No!"]—more especially so when it is understood that colleagues who represent different constituencies in Scotland often ask each other's questions. But that is a general matter. Apart from that, the right hon. Gentleman has a Parliamentary secretary who might, in the ordinary course of events, have informed you, Mr. Speaker, that the question was postponed, and that it should not appear on the Paper. However, I am very glad that the interjection has attracted the right hon. Gentleman's attention, and I withdraw the suggestion that he was playing golf. However, I do feel entitled to justify to a certain extent the supposition which I made as to the right hon. Gentleman's whereabouts, owing to a much more serious incident connected with the right hon. Gentleman.
  Mr. SPEAKER: I do not think that we can go into past history.
  Mr. PIRIE: In a sentence, I want to justify, to a certain extent, my interjection by saying that on a recent occasion when the presence of the right hon. Gentleman was important in reference to the case of the Lewis crofters when I charged him with playing golf he never denied it, and those eleven crofters were three days more in prison owing to the Secretary for Scotland not being in the House.
  Mr. SPEAKER: In consequence of what has fallen from the hon. Member, I may remind the House that hon. Members are not entitled to put questions standing in the name of colleagues unless they have obtained their authority to do so.

CRIMINAL JUSTICE ADMINISTRATION BILL.
Reported, with Amendments, from Standing Committee C.
Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 244.]
Minutes of the Proceedings of the Standing Committee to be printed [No. 244.]
Bill, as amended (in the Standing Committee), to be taken into consideration upon Monday next, and to be printed. [Bill 269.]

STANDING COMMITTEES (CHAIRMEN'S PANEL).
Mr. Stuart-Wortley reported from the Chairmen's Panel: That they had appointed Sir David Brynmor Jones to act as Chairman of Standing Committee B (in respect of the Superannuation (Ecclesiastical Commissioners and Queen Anne's Bounty) Bill.
Report to lie upon the Table.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
Mr. BONAR LAW: May I ask the right hon. Gentleman what business he proposes to take next week, and also what business he proposes to take when we resume after the Recess.
The PRIME MINISTER: On Monday, next week, the Debate on the Third Reading of the Government of Ireland Bill will be continued.
We hope that it may be for the general convenience of the House to take the Division about 7.30 o'clock on Tuesday. In that case we shall take the Adjournment Motion for the rest of the evening, so that the House may rise on Tuesday, at 11 o'clock.
On Tuesday, 9th June, we shall take the Second Reading of the National Insurance Act, 1911 (Part II.), Amendment Bill, and the Milk and Dairies (England and Scotland) Bill, and, if time permits, some of the smaller Orders on the Paper.
On Wednesday and Thursday we shall take Supply.
On Friday we shall take some of the Bills on the Order Paper.
Mr. PRINGLE: I desire to ask the Prime Minister if he thinks that it is fair that on the first occasion on which we have an Adjournment Motion free from Blocking Motions, the private Member should have his liberty restricted by having this Motion taken on Tuesday evening? I think that my right hon. Friend should reconsider the question.
The PRIME MINISTER: I thought that the arrangement which I suggested would meet the general convenience of the House.
Sir GEORGE YOUNGER: Will the right hon. Gentleman take care that on the two days for Supply he will not take the Scottish Estimates, for this reason: that neither the Report of the Board of Agriculture nor the Report of the Land Court has been yet submitted to the House?
Mr. JAMES HOGGE: Will the right hon. Gentleman tell us how it was ascertained that the course proposed is for the general convenience of the House? There are a great many subjects which are always raised on the Adjournment. It is the only opportunity on which private Members can secure the Minister in charge of a Department to reply to a certain thing which he cannot raise on other occasions, and if the right hon. Gentleman and the other Members of the Cabinet are going to the Derby on Wednesday, will they leave us here?
Earl WINTERTON: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that on the occasion of the last Adjournment, a very large number of notices were given of a largo number of questions which were to be raised, and which were unfortunately blocked out by the hon. Gentleman who has just asked a question, and in view of those facts will the right hon Gentleman consider whether he cannot give us a whole day to discuss these matters?
The PRIME MINISTER: The arrangement which I have indicated was an arrangement entered into in the usual way through the usual channels, and it was understood that it would be for the general convenience of both sides of the House. I shall be very glad to listen to

2167
any representations which reach me from any quarter of the House.
Mr. GRETTON: Will the Prime Minister reconsider this matter, and in view of the very limited opportunity which private Members now have of raising questions, will he consider the alternative of suspending the Eleven o'clock Rule?
The PRIME MINISTER: I think that it is a very reasonable suggestion to suspend the Eleven o'clock Rule. As I said before, I am quite prepared between now and then to listen to any representations which may reach me from any quarter. My only desire is to promote the general convenience of the House.
Sir WILLIAM BYLES: May I ask whether the suggestion of the hon. Member for Ayr Burghs is that Scottish Members are to have a longer holiday than English Members, while English Members are to be brought back to discuss English Supply?
The PRIME MINISTER: Somebody must suffer. Before the House adjourns I will indicate what the Supply will be. I do not think that it will be Scottish Supply.
Ordered, "That the Proceedings on the Government of Ireland [Money] Report and the Government of Ireland Bill have precedence this day of the Business of Supply."—[The Prime Minister.]

ELEMENTARY SCHOOL FEES.
Mr. KING: The Return standing in my name was granted publicly at Question Time yesterday. Am I at liberty to move it now?
4.0 P.M.
Mr. SPEAKER: We never grant a Return unless we receive a letter from the Treasury or the Department concerned agreeing to grant it. If the hon. Member receives such a letter and notifies me, I shall be glad to call upon him then.
Mr. KING: I now beg to move for the Return standing in my name on the Paper.
2168
Return ordered "showing, for the last year for which figures are available, the local education authorities in England and Wales maintaining Elementary Schools in which School Fees are charged, and stating for each authority the numbers of free and fee-charging schools, the number of children paying school pence, the amount of fees, and the amount handed over to school managers in each ease; showing further the totals for England and Wales, respectively, of the number of schools charging fees, of children in respect of whom fees are paid, of amounts received as fees, and of amounts handed over to managers."—[Mr. King.]

PRIVATE BILLS.
Cleckheaton Urban District Council Bill,
Reported, with Amendments, from the Local Legislation Committee (Section B); Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.
Railway Bills (Group 3),
Mr. Soames reported from the Committee on Group 3 of Railway Bills; That, for the convenience of parties, the Committee had adjourned till Monday next, at half-past Eleven of the clock.
Report to lie upon the Table.
Electric Lighting Provisional Orders (Nos. 1, 2 and 3) Bills,
Reported, with Amendments [Provisional Orders confirmed]; Report to lie upon the Table.
Bills, as amended, to be considered Tomorrow.
Local Government (Ireland) Provisional Orders (No. 1) Bill,
Reported, with Amendments [Provisional Orders confirmed]; Report to lie upon the Table.
Bill, as amended, to be considered Tomorrow.
Local Government Provisional Orders (Nos. 8, 9, and 10) Bills,
Reported, without Amendment [Provisional Orders confirmed]; Report to lie upon the Table.
Bills to be read the third time Tomorrow.
Western Valleys (Monmouthshire) Railless Electric Traction Provisional Order Bill,
Reported, with Amendments [Provisional Order confirmed]; Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.
Bill, as amended, to be considered Tomorrow.
Abertillery and District Water Board (recommitted) Bill [Lords],
Reported, with an Amendment; Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.
Upper Med way Navigation and Conservancy Bill,
Reported, with Amendments; Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.

BILLS PRESENTED.
  EDUCATION, EMPLOYMENT AND MAINTENANCE OF THE BLIND BILL.
  "To provide for the technical education of the blind by the establishment and equipment of technical schools, etc." Presented by Mr. BURGOYNE; supported by Lord Henry Cavendish-Bentinck, Mr. Bowerman, Mr. Esslemont, Mr. Goldstone, Mr. George Greenwood, Mr. Harris, Mr. Lloyd, Sir Charles Nicholson, and Mr. Wardle; to be read a second time upon Thursday, 25th June, and to be printed. [Bill 270.]
  GOVERNMENT OF THE SOUDAN LOAN BILL.
  "To amend the Schedule to the Government of the Soudan Loan Act, 1913." Presented by Mr. ACLAND; supported by Secretary Sir Edward Grey, and Mr. Montagu; to be read a second time upon Monday next, and to be printed. [Bill 271.]
  REGISTRATION OF FIRMS BILL.
  "To provide for the Registration of firms and persons carrying on business under trade names." Presented by Sir WILLIAM PRIESTLEY; supported by Mr. Rendall, Mr. Sherwell, and Mr. Hastings Duncan; to be read a second time upon Wednesday, 10th June, and to be printed. [Bill 272.]

  MERCHANT SHIPPING (CONVENTION) BILL.
  "To make such amendments of the Law relating to Merchant Shipping as are necessary or expedient to give effect to an International Convention for the Safety of Life at Sea, signed in London
  2170
  on the twentieth day of January, nineteen hundred and fourteen; and for purposes incidental thereto." Presented by Mr. Burns; supported by Mr. Robertson and Mr. Attorney-General; to be read a second time upon Monday next, and to be printed. [Bill 273.]

ORDERS OF THE DAY.

  GOVERNMENT OF IRELAND BILL [MONEY.]
  Resolution reported,
  "That it is expedient, for the purposes of any Act of the present Session to amend the provisions for the Government of Ireland,—
  To authorise the payment in each year out of the Consolidated Fund of the United Kingdom into the Irish Exchequer, or to any body or person in the stead of the Irish Exchequer,—

  (a) of a fixed sum based on the cost, at the time of the passing of the said Act, of the branches of Government to be administered thereunder by the Irish Government and, in, the case of the future transfer of any other branches of Government to the Irish Government, of further sums based on the saving to the Exchequer of the United Kingdom resulting from the transfer; the amount of the said fixed sum and any such further sums to be determined in manner provided by the said Act, with power to make payments on account of those sums pending that determination; and

  (b) of a sum of five hundred thousand pounds, diminishing in each year after the third year of payment by the sum of fifty thousand pounds until it is reduced to the sum of two hundred thousand pounds; and

  (c) of sums equal to the proceeds of any taxes imposed by the Irish Parliament in pursuance to the powers given by the said Act, the amount of those proceeds to be determined in manner provided by the said Act:

  And to authorise such Customs Duties to be charged on articles brought into Great Britain from Ireland, or into Ireland from Great Britain, and such alterations of drawbacks or allowances to be made in respect of those articles as may be provided for by the said Act in cases where any Customs or Excise Duties levied in Great Britain is levied at a different rate from that at which the duty is levied in Ireland, or where any Customs or Excise Duty is levied in Great Britain and not levied in Ireland, or levied in Ireland and not levied in Great Britain:
  And to authorise the payment out of the Consolidated Fund, or out of moneys provided by Parliament, of any salaries, pensions, superannuation allowances, gratuities or compensation, for the payment of which to or on behalf of any judges or
  Irish officers, or officers or constables of the Royal Irish Constabulary or of the Dublin Metropolitan police force, provision may be made in pursuance of the said Act; and also of any sums for the payment of which out of the Consolidated Fund, or out of moneys provided by Parliament, provision may be made by the said Act in the event of the failure of the Irish Government to make any such payment."
  Resolution read a second time.
  Mr. SPEAKERproceeded, pursuant to the Order of the House of the 12th May, to put forthwith the Question, "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the said Resolution."
  The House divided: Ayes, 316; Noes, 228.

  Division No. 115.]

  AYES.

  [4.3 p.m.

  Abraham, William (Dublin, Harbour)

  Collins, Sir Stephen (Lambeth)

  Goldstone, Frank

  Abraham, Rt. Hon. William (Rhondda)

  Compton-Rickett, Rt. Hon. Sir J.

  Greig, Colonel James William

  Acland, Francis Dyke

  Condon, Thomas Joseph

  Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward

  Adamson, William

  Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.

  Griffith, Ellis Jones

  Addison, Dr. C.

  Cotton, William Francis

  Guest, Major Hon. C. H. C. (Pembroke)

  Adkins, Sir W. Ryland D.

  Cowan, W. H.

  Guest, Hon. Frederick E. (Dorset, E.)

  Agnew, Sir George William

  Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth)

  Gwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway)

  Ainsworth, John Stirling

  Crooks, William

  Hackett, John

  Alden, Percy

  Crumley, Patrick

  Hall, Frederick (Yorks, Normanton)

  Allen, Arthur A. (Dumbartonshire)

  Cullinan, John

  Hancock, J. G.

  Allen, Rt. Hon. Charles P. (Stroud)

  Dalziel, Rt. Hon. Sir J. H. (Kirkcaldy)

  Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Lewis (Rossendale)

  Arnold, Sydney

  Davies, Ellis William (Eifion)

  Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose)

  Asquith, Rt. Hon. Herbert Henry

  Davies, Timothy (Lincs., Louth)

  Hardie, J. Keir

  Baker, Harold T. (Accrington)

  Davies, M. Vaughan- (Cardigan)

  Harmsworth, Cecil (Luton, Beds)

  Baker, Joseph Allen (Finsbury, E.)

  Dawes, James Arthur

  Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale)

  Balfour, Sir Robert (Lanark)

  De Forest, Baron

  Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, West)

  Baring, Sir Godfrey (Barnstaple)

  Delany, William

  Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth)

  Barlow, Sir John Emmott (Somerset)

  Denman, Hon. Richard Douglas

  Havelock-Allan, Sir Henry

  Barnes, George N.

  Devlin, Joseph

  Hayden, John Patrick

  Beale, Sir William Phipson

  Dewar, Sir J. A.

  Hayward, Evan

  Beauchamp, Sir Edward

  Dickinson, Rt. Hon. Willoughby H.

  Hazleton, Richard

  Benn, W. W. (T. Hamlets, St. George)

  Dillon, John

  Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

  Bentham, George Jackson

  Donelan, Captain A.

  Henderson, John M (Aberdeen, W.)

  Bethell, Sir J. H.

  Doris, William

  Henry, Sir Charles

  Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine

  Duffy, William J.

  Herbert, General Sir Ivor (Mon., S.)

  Black, Arthur W.

  Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness)

  Hewart, Gordon

  Boland, John Pius

  Duncan, J. Hastings (Yorks, Otley)

  Higham, John Sharp

  Booth, Frederick Handel

  Edwards, Clement (Glamorgan, E.)

  Hinds, John

  Bowerman, Charles W.

  Elverston, Sir Harold

  Hobhouse, Rt. Hon. Charles E. H.

  Boyle, Daniel (Mayo, North)

  Esmonde, Dr. John (Tipperary, N.)

  Hodge, John

  Brace, William

  Esmonde, Sir Thomas (Wexford, N.)

  Hogge, James Myles

  Brady, Patrick Joseph

  Essex, Sir Richard Walter

  Holmes, Daniel Turner

  Brocklehurst, William B.

  Esslemont, George Birnie

  Holt, Richard Durning

  Brunner, John F. L.

  Falconer, James

  Howard, Hon. Geoffrey

  Bryce, J. Annan

  Farrell, James Patrick

  Hudson, Waller

  Buckmaster, Sir Stanley O.

  Fenwick, Rt. Hon. Charles

  Hughes, Spencer Leigh

  Burns, Rt. Hon. John

  Ffrench, Peter

  Jardine, Sir J. (Roxburgh)

  Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas

  Field, William

  John, Edward Thomas

  Byles, Sir William Pollard

  Fiennes, Hon. Eustace Edward

  Johnson, W.

  Carr-Gomm, H. W.

  Fitzgibbon, John

  Jones, Rt. Hon. Sir D. Brynmor (Swansea)

  Cawley, Sir Frederick (Prestwich)

  Flavin, Michael Joseph

  Jones, Edgar R. (Merthyr Tydvil)

  Cawley, Harold T. (Lancs., Heywood)

  France, Gerald Ashburnner

  Jones, J. Towyn (Carmarthen, East)

  Chancellor, Henry George

  Furness, Sir Stephen Wilson

  Jones, Leif (Motts, Rushcliffe)

  Chapple, Dr. William Allen

  Gelder, Sir W. A.

  Jones, William (Carnarvonshire)

  Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston S.

  George, Rt. Hon. D. Lloyd

  Jones, William s. Glyn (Stepney)

  Clancy, John Joseph

  Gill, A. H.

  Jowett, Frederick William

  Clough, William

  Ginnell, Laurence

  Joyce, Michael

  Clynes, John R.

  Gladstone, W. G. C.

  Kellaway, Frederick George

  Collins, Godfrey P. (Greenock)

  Glanville, Harold James

  Kelly, Edward

  Kennedy, Vincent Paul

  Nugent, Sir Walter Richard

  Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees)

  Kenyon, Barnet

  Nuttall, Harry

  Scanlan, Thomas

  Kilbride, Denis

  O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

  Seely, Rt. Hon. Colonel J. E. B.

  King, Joseph

  O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)

  Sheehy, David

  Lamb, Sir Ernest Henry

  O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)

  Sherwell, Arthur James

  Lambert, Rt. Hon. G. (Devon, S. Molton)

  O'Doherty, Philip

  Smith, Albert (Lancs., Clitheroe)

  Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade)

  O'Donnell, Thomas

  Smith, H. B. Lees (Northampton)

  Lardner, James C. R.

  O'Dowd, John

  Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.)

  Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, West)

  O'Kelly, Edward P. (Wicklow, W.)

  Snowden, Philip

  Lawson, Sir W. (Cumb'rld, Cockerm'th)

  O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N.)

  Soames, Arthur Wellesley

  Leach, Charles

  O'Malley, William

  Spicer, Rt. Hon. Sir Albert

  Levy, Sir Maurice

  O'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, s.)

  Strauss, Edward A. (Southwark, West)

  Lewis, Rt. Hon. John Herbert

  O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

  Sutherland, John E.

  Lough, Rt. Hon. Thomas

  O'Shee, James John

  Taylor, John W. (Durham)

  Low, Sir Frederick (Norwich)

  O'Sullivan, Timothy

  Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)

  Lundon, Thomas

  Outhwaite, R. L.

  Taylor, Thomas (Bolton)

  Lyell, Charles Henry

  Palmer, Godfrey Mark

  Tennant, Harold John

  Lynch, Arthur Alfred

  Parker, James (Halifax)

  Thomas, J. H.

  Macdonald, J. Ramsay (Leicester)

  Parry, Thomas H.

  Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton)

  Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk Burghs)

  Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek)

  Toulmin, Sir George

  McGhee, Richard

  Pearce, William (Limehouse)

  Trevelyan, Charles Philips

  Maclean, Donald

  Pease, Rt. Hon. Joseph A. (Rotherham)

  Verney, Sir Harry

  Macnamara, Rt. Hon. Dr. T. J.

  Philipps, Col. Sir Ivor (Southampton)

  Walsh, Stephen (Lancs., Ince)

  MacNeill, J. G. Swift (Donegal, South)

  Phillips, John (Longford, S.)

  Walters, Sir John Tudor

  Macpherson, James Ian

  Pointer, Joseph

  Walton, Sir Joseph

  MacVeagh, Jerennah

  Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H.

  Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent)

  M'Callum, Sir John M.

  Pratt, J. W.

  Wardle, George J.

  M'Kean, John

  Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central)

  Waring, Walter

  McKenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald

  Priestley, Sir Arthur (Grantham)

  Warner, Sir Thomas Courtenay T.

  M'Laren, Hon. H. D. (Leics.)

  Priestley, Sir W. E. B. (Bradford, E.)

  Wason, Rt. Hon. E. (Clackmannan)

  M'Laren, Hon. F. W. S. (Lincs., Spaiding)

  Primrose, Hon. Neil James

  Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney)

  M'Micking, Major Gilbert

  Pringle, William M. R.

  Webb, H.

  Marks, Sir George Croydon

  Radford, George Heynes

  Wedgwood, Josiah C.

  Marshall, Arthur Harold

  Raffan, Peter Wilson

  White, J. Dundas (Glasgow, Tradeston)

  Martin, Joseph

  Raphael, Sir Herbert H.

  White, Sir Luke (Yorks. E. R.)

  Mason, David M. (Coventry)

  Rea, Rt. Hon. Russell (South Shields)

  White, Patrick (Meath, North)

  Meagher, Michael

  Rea, Walter Russell (Scarborough)

  Whittaker, Rt. Hon. Sir Thomas P.

  Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.)

  Reddy, Michael

  Whyte, Alexander F. (Perth)

  Meehan, Patrick J. (Queen's Co., Leix)

  Redmond, John E. (Waterford)

  Wiles, Thomas

  Middlebrook, William

  Redmond, William (Clare, E.)

  Wilkie, Alexander

  Millar, James Duncan

  Redmond, William Archer (Tyrone, E.)

  Williams, Aneurin (Durham, N. W.)

  Molloy, Michael

  Rendall, Athelstan

  Williams, John (Glamorgan)

  Molteno, Percy Alport

  Richards, Thomas

  Williams, Llewelyn (Carmarthen)

  Mond, Rt. Hon. Sir Alfred

  Richardson, Albion (Peckham)

  Williams, Penry (Middlesbrough)

  Money, L. G. Chiozza

  Richardson, Thomas (Whitehaven)

  Williamson, Sir Archibald

  Montagu, Hon. E. S.

  Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)

  Wilson, John (Durham, Mid)

  Mooney, John J.

  Roberts, George H. (Norwich)

  Wilson, Rt. Hon. J. W. (Worcs., N.)

  Morgan, George Hay

  Roberts, Sir J. H. (Denbighs)

  Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)

  Morrell, Philip

  Robertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradford)

  Winfrey, Sir Richard

  Morison, Hector

  Robertson, John M. (Tyneside)

  Wing, Thomas Edward

  Morton, Alpheus Cleophas

  Robinson, Sidney

  Wood, Rt. Hon. T. McKinnon (Glasgow)

  Muldoon, John

  Roch, Walter f. (Pembroke)

  Young, Samuel (Cavan, E.)

  Munro, Rt. Hon. Robert

  Roche, Augustine (Louth)

  Young, William (Perthshire, East)

  Murphy, Martin J.

  Roe, Sir Thomas

  Murray, Captain Hon. Arthur C.

  Rowlands, James

  Needham, Christopher T.

  Rowntree, Arnold

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr.

  Nolan, Joseph

  Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter

  Illingworth and Mr. Gulland.

  Norton, Captain Cecil W.

  Russell, Rt. Hon Thomas W.

  NOES.

  Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

  Boyton, James

  Clay, Captain H. H. Spender

  Anson, Rt. Hon. Sir William R.

  Brassey, H. Leonard Campbell

  Clive, Captain Percy Archer

  Anstruther-Gray, Major William

  Bull, Sir William James

  Coates, Major Sir Edward Feetham

  Archer-Shee, Major Martin

  Burdett-Coutts, W.

  Cooper, Sir Richard Ashmole

  Ashley, W. W.

  Burgoyne, A. H.

  Cory, Sir Clifford John

  Astor, Waldorf

  Burn, Colonel C. R.

  Courthope, George Loyd

  Baird, John Lawrence

  Butcher, John George

  Craig, Ernest (Cheshire, Crewe)

  Baker, Sir Randolf L. (Dorset, N.)

  Campbell, Captain Duncan F. (Ayr, N.)

  Craig, Norman (Kent, Thanet)

  Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (City, Lond.)

  Campbell, Rt. Hon. J. (Dublin Univ.)

  Craik, Sir Henry

  Banbury, Sir Frederick George

  Camplon, W. R.

  Cricton-Stuart, Lord Ninian

  Banner, Sir John S. Harmood

  Carlile, Sir Edward Hildred

  Croft, Henry Page

  Barnston, Harry

  Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward H.

  Currie, George W.

  Bathurst, Charles (Wilts, Wilton)

  Cassel, Felix

  Dalrymple, Viscount

  Beckett, Hon. Gervase

  Castlereagh, Viscount

  Dalziel, Davison (Brixton)

  Benn, Arthur Shirley (Plymouth)

  Cator, John

  Denison-Pender, J. C.

  Benn, Ion Hamilton (Greenwich)

  Cautley, H. S.

  Denniss, E. R. B.

  Bentinck, Lord H. Cavendish

  Cave, George

  Dixon, C. H.

  Beresford, Lord Charles

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Du Cros, Arthur Philip

  Bigland, Alfred

  Cecil, Lord Hugh (Oxford University)

  Duke, Henry Edward

  Bird, Alfred

  Cecil, Lord R. (Herts, Hitchin)

  Duncannon, Viscount

  Blair, Reginald

  Chaloner, Colonel R. G. W.

  Du Pre, W. Baring

  Boscawen, Sir Arthur S. T. Griffith-

  Chambers, J.

  Eyres-Monsell, Bolton M.

  Boyle, William (Norfolk, Mid)

  Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry

  Faber, George Denison (Clapham)

  2174

  2175

  Falle, B. C.

  Kyffin-Taylor, G.

  Royds, Edmund

  Fell, Arthur

  Lane-Fox, G. R.

  Rutherford, John (Lancs., Darwen)

  Finlay, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert

  Larmor, Sir J.

  Rutherford, Watson (L'pool, W. Derby)

  Fisher, Rt. Hon. W. Hayes

  Law, Rt. Hon. A. Bonar (Bootle)

  Salter, Arthur Clavell

  Fitzroy, Hon. Edward A.

  Lawson, Hon. H. (T. H'mts., Mile End)

  Samuel, Sir Harry (Norwood)

  Flannery, Sir J. Fortescue

  Lee, Arthur Hamilton

  Samuel, Samuel (Wandsworth)

  Foster, Philip Staveley

  Lewisham, Viscount

  Sanderson, Lancelot

  Gardner, Ernest

  Lloyd, George Ambrose (Stafford, W.)

  Sandys, G. J.

  Gastrell, Major W. Houghton

  Lloyd, George Butler (Shrewsbury)

  Sassoon, Sir Philip

  Gibbs, G. A.

  Locker-Lampson, G. (Salisbury)

  Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

  Gilmour, Captain John

  Locker-Lampson, O. (Ramsey)

  Sharman-Crawford, Colonel R. G.

  Glazebrook, Captain Philip K.

  Lockwood, Rt. Hon. Lieut.-Colonel A. R.

  Smith, Harold (Warrington)

  Goldman, C. S.

  Lowe, Sir F. W. (Birm., Edgbaston)

  Spear, Sir John Ward

  Gordon, John (Londonderry, South)

  Lyttelton, Hon. J. C.

  Stanier, Beville

  Gordon, Hon. John Edward (Brighton)

  MacCaw, William J. MacGeagh

  Stanley, Hon. Arthur (Ormskirk)

  Goulding, Edward Alfred

  Mackinder, Halford J.

  Stanley, Hon. G. F. (Preston)

  Grant, J. A.

  Macmaster, Donald

  Starkey, John R.

  Greene, W. R.

  M'Calmont, Major Robert C. A.

  Staveley-Hill, Henry

  Gretton, John

  M'Neill, Ronald (Kent, St. Augustine's)

  Stewart, Gershom

  Guinness, Hon. Rupert (Essex, S. E.)

  Magnus, Sir Philip

  Strauss, Arthur (Paddington, North)

  Guinness, Hon. W. E. (Bury S. Edmunds)

  Malcolm, Ian

  Sykes, Alan John (Ches., Knutsford)

  Gwynne, R. S. (Sussex, Eastbourne)

  Mallaby-Deeley, Harry

  Terrell, George (Wilts, N. W.)

  Haddock, George Bahr

  Meysey-Thompson, E. C.

  Terrell, Henry (Gloucester)

  Hall, D. B. (Isle of Wight)

  Middlemore, John Throgmorton

  Thompson, Robert (Belfast, North)

  Hall, Frederick (Dulwich)

  Mildmay, Francis Bingham

  Thomson, W. Mitchell (Down, North)

  Hamilton, C. G. C. (Ches., Altrincham)

  Mills, Hon. Charles Thomas

  Thynne, Lord Alexander

  Hamilton, Lord C. J. (Kensington, S.)

  Morrison-Bell, Major A. C. (Honiton)

  Tickler, T. G.

  Hardy, Rt. Hon. Laurence

  Mount, William Arthur

  Tobin, Alfred Aspinall

  Harris, Henry Percy

  Neville, Reginald J. N.

  Touche, George Alexander

  Harrison-Broadley, H. B.

  Newdegate, F. A.

  Tryon, Captain George Clement

  Henderson, Major H. (Berks, Abingdon)

  Newman, John R. P.

  Tullibardine, Marquess of

  Henderson, Sir A. (St. Geo., Han. Sq.)

  Newton, Harry Kottingham

  Valentia, Viscount

  Herbert, Hon. A. (Somerset, S.)

  Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield)

  Walrond, Hon. Lionel

  Hewins, William Albert Samuel

  Nield, Herbert

  Warde, Colonel C. E. (Kent, Mid)

  Hibbert, Sir Henry F.

  O'Neill, Hon. A. E. B. (Antrim, Mid)

  Weston, Colonel J. W.

  Hills, John Waller

  Orde-Powlett, Hon. W. G. A.

  Wheler, Granville C. H.

  Hill-Wood, Samuel

  Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William

  White, Major G. D. (Lancs., Southport)

  Hoare, S. J. G.

  Paget, Almeric Hugh

  Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset, W.)

  Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield)

  Parker, Sir Gilbert (Gravesend)

  Willoughby, Major Hon. Claud

  Hope, Major J. A. (Midlothian)

  Parkes, Ebenezer

  Wilson, A. Stanley (Yorks, E. R.)

  Horne, Edgar (Surrey, Guildford)

  Perkins, Walter Frank

  Wilson, Captain Leslie O. (Reading)

  Horner, A. L.

  Pirie, Duncan V.

  Wilson, Maj. Sir M.(Bethnal Green, S. W.)

  Houston, Robert Paterson

  Pole-Carew, Sir R.

  Winterton, Earl

  Hume-Williams, W. E.

  Pollock, Ernest Murray

  Wolmer, Viscount

  Hunt, Rowland

  Pretyman, Ernest George

  Wood, Hon. E. F. L. (Ripon)

  Hunter, Sir Charles Rodk.

  Quilter, Sir William Eley C.

  Wood, John (Stalybridge)

  Ingleby, Holcombe

  Ratcliff, R. F.

  Worthington Evans, L.

  Jardine, Ernest (Somerset, East)

  Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel

  Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart

  Jessel, Captain H. M.

  Rawson, Colonel R. H.

  Yate, Colonel C. E.

  Joynson-Hicks, William

  Rees, Sir J. D.

  Yerburgh, Robert A.

  Kerr-Smiley, Peter Kerr

  Remnant, James Farquharson

  Younger, Sir George

  Kerry, Earl of

  Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall)

  Keswick, Henry

  Ronaldshay, Earl of

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Lord

  Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement

  Rothschild, Lionel de

  E. Talbot and Mr. Pike Pease

  Considered in Committee.
  [Mr. WHITLEY in the Chair.]
  The CHAIRMANproceeded, pursuant to the Order of the House of the 12th
  May, to put forthwith the Question, "That the Chairman do Report the Bill, without Amendment, to the House."
  The Committee divided: Ayes, 316; Noes, 227.

  Division No. 116.]

  AYES.

  [4.15 p.m.

  Abraham, William (Dublin, Harbour)

  Baring, Sir Godfrey (Barnstaple)

  Brady, Patrick Joseph

  Abraham, Rt. Hon. William (Rhondda)

  Barlow, Sir John Emmott (Somerset)

  Brocklehurst, William B.

  Acland, Francis Dyke

  Barnes, George N.

  Brunner, John F. L.

  Adamson, William

  Barran, Sir J. N. (Hawick Burghs)

  Bryce, J. Annan

  Addison, Dr. Christopher

  Beale, Sir William Phipson

  Buckmaster, Sir Stanley O.

  Adkins, Sir W. Ryland D.

  Beauchamp, Sir Edward

  Burns, Rt. Hon. John

  Agnew, Sir George William

  Benn, W. W. (T. Hamlets, St. George)

  Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas

  Ainsworth, John Stirling

  Bentham, George Jackson

  Byles, Sir William Pollard

  Alden, Percy

  Bethell, Sir J. H.

  Carr-Gomm, H. W.

  Allen, Arthur A. (Dumbartonshire)

  Birrell, Rt. Hon Augustine

  Cawley, Sir Frederick (Prestwich)

  Allen, Rt. Hon. Charles P. (Stroud)

  Black, Arthur W.

  Cawley, Harold T. (Lanes., Heywood)

  Arnold, Sydney

  Boland, John Pius

  Chancellor, Henry George

  Asquith, Rt. Hon. Herbert Henry

  Booth, Frederick Handel

  Chapple, Dr. William Allen

  Baker, Harold T. (Accrington)

  Bowerman, Charles W.

  Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston S.

  Baker, Joseph Allen (Finsbury, E.)

  Boyle, Daniel (Mayo, North)

  Clancy, John Joseph

  Balfour, Sir Robert (Lanark)

  Brace, William

  Clough, William

  Clynes, John R.

  Howard, Hon. Geoffrey

  O'Malley, William

  Collins, Godfrey P. (Greenock)

  Hudson, Walter

  O'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, S.)

  Collins, Sir Stephen (Lambeth)

  Hughes, Spencer Leigh

  O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

  Compton-Rickett, Rt. Hon. Sir J.

  Jardine, Sir J. (Roxburgh)

  O'Shee, James John

  Condon, Thomas Joseph

  John, Edward Thomas

  O'Sullivan, Timothy

  Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.

  Johnson, W.

  Outhwaite, R. L.

  Cotton, William Francis

  Jones, Rt. Hon. Sir D. Brynmor (Swansea)

  Palmer, Godfrey Mark

  Cowan, W. H.

  Jones, Edgar (Merthyr Tydvil)

  Parker, James (Halifax)

  Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth)

  Jones, J. Towyn (Carmarthen, East)

  Parry, Thomas H.

  Crooks, William

  Jones, Leif (Notts, Rushcliffe)

  Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek)

  Crumley, Patrick

  Jones, William (Carnarvonshire)

  Pearce, William (Limehouse)

  Cullinan, John

  Jones, William S. Glyn- (Stepney)

  Pease, Rt. Hon. Joseph A. (Rotherham)

  Dalziel, Rt. Hon. Sir J. H, (Kirkcaldy)

  Jowett, Frederick William

  Philipps, Col. Ivor (Southampton)

  Davies, Ellis William (Eifion)

  Joyce, Michael

  Phillips, John (Longford, S.)

  Davies, Timothy (Lincs., Louth)

  Kellaway, Frederick George

  Pointer, Joseph

  Davies, M. Vaughan- (Cardiganshire)

  Kelly, Edward

  Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H.

  Dawes, James Arthur

  Kennedy, Vincent Paul

  Pratt, J. W.

  De Forest, Baron

  Kenyon, Barnet

  Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central)

  Delany, William

  Kilbride, Denis

  Priestley, Sir Arthur (Grantham)

  Denman, Hon. Richard Douglas

  King, Joseph

  Priestley, Sir W. E. B. (Bradford, E.)

  Devlin, Joseph

  Lamb, Sir Ernest Henry

  Primrose, Hon. Neil James

  Dewar, Sir J. A.

  Lambert, Rt. Hon. G. (Devon, S. Molton)

  Pringle, William M. R.

  Dickinson, Rt. Hon. Willoughby H.

  Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade)

  Radford, G. H.

  Dillon, John

  Lardner, James C. R.

  Raphael, Sir Herbert H.

  Donelan, Captain A.

  Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, West)

  Rea, Rt. Hon. Russell (South Shields)

  Doris, William

  Lawson, Sir W. (Cumb'rid, Cockerm'th)

  Rea, Walter Russell (Scarborough)

  Dufly, William J.

  Leach, Charles

  Reddy, Michael

  Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness)

  Levy, Sir Maurice

  Redmond, John E. (Waterford)

  Duncan, J. Hastings (Yorks, Otley)

  Lewis, Rt. Hon. John Herbert

  Redmond, William (Clare, E.)

  Edwards, Clement (Glamorgan, E.)

  Lough, Rt. Hon. Thomas

  Redmond, William Archer (Tyrone, E.)

  Elverston, Sir Harold

  Low, Sir Frederick (Norwich)

  Rendall, Athelstan

  Esmonde, Dr. John (Tipperary, N.)

  Lundon, Thomas

  Richards, Thomas

  Esmonde, Sir Thomas (Wexford, N.)

  Lyell, Charles Henry

  Richardson, Albion (Peckham)

  Essex, Sir Richard Walter

  Lynch, Arthur Alfred

  Richardson, Thomas (Whitehaven)

  Esslemont, George Birnie

  Macdonald, J. Ramsay (Leicester)

  Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)

  Falconer, James

  Macdonald, John M. (Falkirk Burghs)

  Roberts, George H. (Norwich)

  Farrell, James Patrick

  McGhee, Richard

  Roberts, Sir J. H. (Denbighs)

  Fenwick, Rt. Hon. Charles

  Maclean, Donald

  Robertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradford)

  Ffrench, Peter

  Macnamara, Rt. Hon. Dr. T. J.

  Robertson, John M. (Tyneside)

  Field, William

  MacNeill, J. G. Swift (Donegal, South)

  Robinson, Sidney

  Fiennes, Hon. Eustace Edward

  Macpherson, James Ian

  Roch, Walter F. (Pembroke)

  Fitzgibbon, John

  MacVeagh, Jeremiah

  Roche, Augustine (Louth)

  Flavin, Michael Joseph

  M'Callum, Sir John M.

  Roe, Sir Thomas

  France, Gerald Ashburner

  M'Kean, John

  Rowlands, James

  Furness, Sir Stephen Wilson

  McKenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald

  Rowntree, Arnold

  Gelder, Sir W. A.

  M'Laren, Hon. H. D. (Leics.)

  Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter

  George, Rt. Hon. D. Lloyd

  M'Laren, Hon. F. W. S. (Lincs., Spalding)

  Russell, Rt. Hon. Thomas W.

  Gill, A. H.

  M'Micking, Major Gilbert

  Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees)

  Ginnell, Laurence

  Marks, Sir George Croydon

  Scanlan, Thomas

  Gladstone, W. G. C.

  Marshall, Arthur Harold

  Seely, Rt. Hon. Colonel J. E. B.

  Glanville, Harold James

  Martin, Joseph

  Sheehy, David

  Goldstone, Frank

  Mason, David M. (Coventry)

  Sherwell, Arthur James

  Greig, Colonel James William

  Meagher, Michael

  Smith, Albert (Lancs., Clitheroe)

  Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward

  Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.)

  Smith, H. B. Lees (Northampton)

  Griffith, Ellis Jones

  Meehan, Patrick J. (Queen's Co., Leix)

  Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.)

  Guest, Major Hon. C. H. C. (Pembroke)

  Middlebrook, William

  Snowden, Philip

  Guest, Hon. Frederick E. (Dorset, E.)

  Millar, James Duncan

  Soames, Arthur Wellesley

  Gwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway)

  Molloy Michael

  Taylor, John W. (Durham)

  Hackett, John

  Molteno, Percy Alport

  Spicer, Rt. Hon. Sir Albert

  Hall, Frederick (Yorks, Normanton)

  Mond, Rt. Hon. Sir Alfred

  Strauss, Edward A. (Southwark, West)

  Hancock, J. G.

  Money, L. G. Chiozza

  Sutherland, John E.

  Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Lewis (Rossendale)

  Montagu, Hon. E. S.

  Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)

  Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose)

  Mooney, John J.

  Taylor, Thomas (Bolton)

  Hardie, J. Keir

  Morgan, George Hay

  Tennant, Harold John

  Harmsworth, Cecil (Luton, Beds)

  Mcrrell, John Philip

  Thomas, J. H.

  Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale)

  Morison, Hector

  Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton)

  Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, West)

  Morton, Alpheus Cleophas

  Toulmin, Sir George

  Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth)

  Muldoon, John

  Trevelyan, Charles Philips

  Havelock-Allan, Sir Henry

  Munro, Rt. Hon. Robert

  Verney, Sir Harry

  Hayden, John Patrick

  Murphy, Martin J.

  Walsh, Stephen (Lancs., Ince)

  Hayward, Evan

  Murray, Captain Hon. Arthur C.

  Walters, Sir John Tudor

  Hazleton, Richard

  Noedham, Christopher T.

  Walton, Sir Joseph

  Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

  Nolan, Joseph

  Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent)

  Henderson, John M. (Aberdeen, W.)

  Norton, Captain Cecil W.

  Wardle, George J.

  Henry, Sir Charles

  Nugent, Sir Waller Richard

  Waring, Walter

  Herbert, General Sir Ivor (Mon., S.)

  Nuttall, Harry

  Warner, Sir Thomas Courtenay T.

  Hewart, Gordon

  O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

  Wason, Rt. Hon. E. (Clackmannan)

  Higham, John Sharp

  O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)

  Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney)

  Hinds, John

  O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)

  Webb, H.

  Hobhouse, Rt. Hon. Charles E. H.

  O'Doherty, Philip

  Wedgwood, Josiah C.

  Hedge, John

  O'Donnell, Thomas

  White, J. Dundas (Glasgow, Tradeston)

  Hogge, James Myles

  O'Dowd, John

  White, Sir Luke (Yorks, E. R.)

  Holmes, Daniel Turner

  O'Kelly, Edward P. (Wicklow. W.)

  White, Patrick (Meath, North)

  Holt, Richard Durning

  O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N.)

  Whittaker, Rt. Hon. Sir Thomas P.

  2178

  2179

  Whyte, Alexander F. (Perth)

  Williamson, Sir Archibald

  Young, Samuel (Cavan, East)

  Wiles, Thomas

  Wilson, John (Durham, Mid)

  Young, William (Perthshire, East)

  Wilkie, Alexander

  Wilson, Rt. Hon. J. W. (Worcs., N.)

  Williams, Aneurin (Durham, N. W.)

  Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)

  Williams, John (Glamorgan)

  Winfrey, Sir Richard

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr.

  Williams, Llewelyn (Carmarthen)

  Wing, Thomas Edward

  Illingworth and Mr. Gulland.

  Williams, Penry (Middlesbrough)

  Wood, Rt. Hon. T. McKinnon (Glasgow)

  NOES.

  Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

  Flannery, Sir J. Fortescus

  Mills, Hon. Charles Thomas

  Anstruther-Gray, Major William

  Foster, Philip Staveley

  Morrison-Bell, Major A. C. (Honiton)

  Archer-Shee, Major Martin

  Gardner, Ernest

  Mount, William Arthur

  Ashley, Wilfrid W.

  Gastrell, Major W. Houghton

  Neville, Reginald J. N.

  Astor, Waldorf

  Gibbs, George Abraham

  Newdegate, F. A.

  Baird, John Lawrence

  Glazebrook, Captain Philip K.

  Newman, John R. P.

  Baker, Sir Randolf L. (Dorset, N.)

  Goldman, C. S.

  Newton, Harry Kottingham

  Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (City, London)

  Gordon, John (Londonderry, South)

  Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield)

  Banbury, Sir Frederick George

  Gordon, Hon. John Edward (Brighton)

  Nield, Herbert

  Banner, Sir John S. Harmood

  Goulding, Edward Alfred

  O'Neill, Hon. A. E. B. (Antrim, Mid)

  Barnston, Harry

  Grant, James Augustus

  Orde-Powlett, Hon. W. G. A.

  Bathurst, Charles (Wilts, Wilton)

  Greene, Walter Raymond

  Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William

  Beckett, Hon. Gervase

  Gretton, John

  Paget, Almeric Hugh

  Benn, Arthur Shirley (Plymouth)

  Guinness, Hon. Rupert (Essex, S. E.)

  Parker, Sir Gilbert (Gravesend)

  Benn, Ion Hamilton (Greenwich)

  Guinness, Hon. W. E. (Bury S. Edmunds)

  Parkes, Ebenezer

  Bentinck, Lord H. Cavendish-

  Gwynne, R. S. (Sussex, Eastbourne)

  Perkins, Walter Frank

  Beresford, Lord Charles

  Haddock, George Bahr

  Pirie, Duncan Vernon

  Bigland, Alfred

  Hall, D. B. (Isle of Wight)

  Pole-Carew, Sir R.

  Bird, Alfred

  Hall, Frederick (Dulwich)

  Pollock, Ernest Murray

  Blair, Reginald

  Hamilton, C. G. C. (Ches., Altrincham)

  Pretyman, Ernest George

  Boscawen, Sir Arthur S. T. Griffith

  Hamilton, Lord C. J. (Kensington, S.)

  Quilter, Sir William Eley C.

  Boyle, William (Norfolk, Mid)

  Hardy, Rt. Hon. Laurence

  Ratcliff, R. F.

  Boyton, James

  Harris, Henry Percy

  Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel

  Brassey, Leonard Campbell

  Harrison-Broadley, H. B.

  Rawson, Colonel Richard H.

  Bull, Sir William James

  Henderson, Major H. (Berks, Abingdon)

  Rees, Sir J. D.

  Burdett-Coutts. W.

  Henderson, Sir A. (St Geo., Han. Sq.)

  Remnant, James Farquharson

  Burgoyne, Alan Hughes

  Herbert, Hon. A. (Somerset, S.)

  Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall)

  Burn, Colonel C. R.

  Hewins, William Albert Samuel

  Ronaldshay, Earl of

  Butcher, John George

  Hibbert, Sir Henry F.

  Rothschild, Lionel de

  Campbell, Captain Duncan F. (Ayr, N.)

  Kills, John Waller

  Royds, Edmund

  Campbell, Rt. Hon. J. (Dublin Univ.)

  Hill-Wood, Samuel

  Rutherford, John (Lancs., Darwen)

  Campion, W. R.

  Hoare, Samuel John Gurney

  Rutherford, Watson (L'pool, W. Derby)

  Carlile, Sir Edward Hildred

  Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield)

  Salter, Arthur Clavell

  Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward H.

  Hope, Major J. A. (Midlothian)

  Samuel, Sir Harry (Norwood)

  Cassel, Felix

  Home, E. (Surrey, Guildford)

  Samuel, Samuel (Wandsworth)

  Castlereagh, Viscount

  Horner, Andrew Long

  Sanderson, Lancelot

  Cator, John

  Houston, Robert Paterson

  Sandys, G. J.

  Cautley, Henry Strother

  Hume-Williams, William Ellis

  Sassoon, Sir Philip

  Cave, George

  Hunt, Rowland

  Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Hunter, Sir Charles Rodk

  Sharman-Crawford, Colonel R. G.

  Cecil, Lord Hugh (Oxford University)

  Ingleby, Holcombe

  Smith, Harold (Warrington)

  Cecil, Lord R. (Herts, Hitchin)

  Jardine, Ernest (Somerset, East)

  Spear, Sir John Ward

  Chaloner, Colonel R. G. W.

  Jessel, Captain H. M.

  Stanier, Beville

  Chambers, James

  Joynson-Hicks., William

  Stanley, Hon. Arthur (Ormskirk)

  Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry

  Kerr-Smiley, Peter Kerr

  Stanley, Major Hon. G. F. (Preston)

  Clay, Captain H. H. Spender

  Kerry, Earl of

  Starkey, John R.

  Clive, Captain Percy Archer

  Keswick, Henry

  Staveley-Hill, Henry

  Coates, Major Sir Edward Feetham

  Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement

  Stewart, Gershom

  Cooper, Sir Richard Ashmole

  Kyffin-Taylor, G.

  Strauss, Arthur (Paddington, North)

  Cory, Sir Clifford John

  Lane-Fox, G. R.

  Sykes, Alan John (Ches., Knutsford)

  Courthope, George Loyd

  Larmor, Sir J.

  Talbot, Lord Edmund

  Craig, Ernest (Cheshire, Crewe)

  Law, Rt. Hon. A. Bonar (Beetle)

  Terrell, George (Wilts, N. W.)

  Craig, Norman (Kent, Thanet)

  Lawson, Hon. H. (T. H'mts., Mile End)

  Terrell, Henry (Gloucester)

  Craik, Sir Henry

  Lee, Arthur Hamilton

  Thompson, Robert (Belfast, North)

  Crichton-Stuart, Lord Ninian

  Lewisham, Viscount

  Thomson, W. Mitchell- (Down, North)

  Croft, Henry Page

  Lloyd, George Ambrose (Stafford, W.)

  Thynne, Lord Alexander

  Currie, George W.

  Lloyd, George Butler (Shrewsbury)

  Tickler, T. G.

  Dairymple, Viscount

  Locker-Lampson, G. (Salisbury)

  Tobin, Alfred Aspinall

  Dalziel, Davison (Brixton)

  Locker-Lampson, O. (Ramsey)

  Touche, George Alexander

  Denison-Pender, J. C.

  Lockwood, Rt. Hon. Lt.-Colonel A. R.

  Tryon, Captain George Clement

  Denniss, E. R. B.

  Lowe, Sir F. W. (Birm., Edgbaston)

  Tullibardine, Marquess of

  Dixon, C. H.

  Lyttelton, Hon. J. C.

  Valentia, Viscount

  Du Cros, Arthur Philip

  MacCaw, Wm. J. MacGeagh

  Walrond, Lionel

  Duke, Henry Edward

  Mackinder, Halford J.

  Warde, Colonel C. E. (Kent, Mid)

  Duncannon, Viscount

  Macmaster, Donald

  Weston, Colonel J. W.

  Du Pre, W. Baring

  M'Calmont, Major Robert C. A.

  Wheler, Granville C. H.

  Evres-Monsell, Bolton M.

  M'Neill, Ronald (Kent, St Augustine's)

  White, Major G. D. (Lancs., Southport)

  Faber, George Denison (Clapham)

  Magnus, Sir Philip

  Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset, W.)

  Falle, Bertram Godfray

  Malcolm, Ian

  Willoughby, Major Hon. Claud

  Fell, Arthur

  Mallaby-Deeley, Harry

  Wilson, A. Stanley (Yorks, E. R.)

  Finlay Rt. Hon. Sir Robert

  Meysey-Thompson, E. C.

  Wilson, Captain Leslie O. (Reading)

  Fisher, Rt. Hon. W. Hayes

  Middlemore, John Throgmorton

  Wilson, Maj. Sir M. (Bethnal Green, S. W.)

  Fitzroy, Hon. Edward A.

  Mildmay, Francis Bingham

  Winterton, Earl

  2180

  2181

  Wolmer, Viscount

  Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart

  Wood, Hon. E. F. L. (Yorks, Ripon)

  Yate, Colonel C. E.

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr.

  Wood, John (Stalybridge)

  Yerburgh, Robert A.

  Pike Pease and Captain Gilmour

  Worthington Evans, L.

  Younger, Sir George

  Bill reported, without Amendment.

  THIRD READING.
  Order for Third Reading read.
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read the third time."
  Lord ROBERT CECIL: I beg to move, "That the Debate be now adjourned."
  I venture to think that the position with reference to this discussion is absolutely without any kind of precedent whatever. We are being asked, under an Act of a very stringent character, to read a Bill of vast importance the third time and to deal with it in this House according to the Government view for the last time, and we are not yet told what are to be the proposals for the modification of that Bill which the Government intend to introduce.
  Earl WINTERTON: Where are the Front Bench?
  HON. MEMBERS: Where is the Leader? Other HON. MEMBERS: "Where are the hooligans?" [Interruption.]
  Lord ROBERT CECIL: All we know under the Government proposals—[Interruption.]
  Earl WINTERTON: Where is the Prime Minister—where is he? [Interruption.]
  The PRIME MINISTERentered the House.
  HON. MEMBERS: Now are you satisfied?
  Lord ROBERT CECIL: I am very glad the Leader of the House has returned to the Chamber to guide our deliberations. [HON. MEMBERS: "Go on!"] Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman will forgive me if I repeat the single sentence which I had already uttered, namely, that the situation is a very strange one in which the House of Commons is placed, because we
  2182
  are asked to proceed with the Third Reading of this very important Bill not knowing really what the proposals of the Government are in relation to the subject-matter of that Bill. We are in this position, that not only have we to debate this Motion, but we shall have to go to a Division, and there are Members in this House, Members in various parts, who, it may be, will have their opinion as to the desirability of passing this measure through this House materially affected by the knowledge of what the Government is going to do. All we do know is—because the Chancellor of the Exchequer told us so much in response to an interruption the other day—that the Government intend to propose the exclusion of Ulster in some shape or form, which may be satisfactory or unsatisfactory. It is quite clear that that is a matter of enormous importance, one which in many respects changes the whole character of the Bill, and about which we are really entitled to know the proposals of the Government at the earliest possible moment. This House will have heard, even Members on the benches opposite I think, with some astonishment that when this very important declaration of policy is made it is not to be made by a democratic Ministry to a democratic House of Commons, but in that House which hon. Members opposite are never tired of assuring us is absolutely effete and a disgrace to the Constitution. I cannot imagine anything more deliberately insulting than the procedure which the Government is adopting.
  But there is another aspect of the matter which is perhaps of even greater importance. We have asked repeatedly for the Government to put their proposals upon the Paper of this House for discussion in the great inquest of the nation, as the right hon. Gentleman called it the other day. We asked it right away back in February or March; we have asked it repeatedly. We have said, Put your proposals in the ordinary legislative form; let them come before this House; let them be

  2183
  discussed openly in this House; let us hear what the objections to them are; let us see how they can be improved or modified, if they require improvement or modification; let them be treated as every other legislative proposal is treated in this House, or always had been treated until this Government came into power. I think we are entitled to say what is the reason why the Government adopt this extraordinary course. It is one of two reasons. The first is that the Government have not yet made up their mind what proposals they are going to make. In that case we are in this position: We are proceeding with the Third Reading of this Bill, not only without any knowledge, as a House of Commons, as to what the new proposals are going to be, but before the Government themselves Lave made up their minds what they are to be. I think that that is an astonishing position in which to place the House of Commons. The only other conceivable reason—there is no other possible explanation—must be that the Government are sure that when they produce their proposals, they will seriously imperil the progress of this Bill in this House. In other words, the Government are by no means sure that when the whole of their proposals are before the House of Commons they will command the assent of a majority even in this House. As far as I can sec, there can be no possible explanation which is not one or the other of those two. Either the Government do not know what they want, or they are afraid that what they want will not command a Parliamentary majority. If that is so, or even if it is not, surely this is a method of procedure which must be characterised as one of extreme levity. The situation in Ireland is really a deplorable one.
  Mr. W. F. ROCH: Hear, hear.
  Lord ROBERT CECIL: I think the hon. Member belongs to the blood-and-thunder group.
  Mr. PRINGLEmade an observation which was inaudible m the Reporters' Gallery.
  Lord ROBERT CECIL: I was not referring to the hon. Member (Mr. Pringle).
  2184
  I was saying that the situation in Ireland was one of extraordinary gravity. I quite agree that we should all be of that opinion. It is not only Ulster. The Ulster situation is serious enough in all conscience; but, by the extraordinary procedure of the Government, there is growing up in the rest of Ireland a situation which is comparable, or may shortly become comparable, even with the Ulster situation. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."] I am glad that hon. Members opposite agree. This is the result of Radical Government for eight years. With this state of affairs, with—to use a common phrase—all this loose gunpowder lying about in Ireland, the Government go on dallying with the situation. They have not the courage to propose a statemanlike solution. They go on with their miserable Parliamentary tactics, seeking a vote here and a vote there, indifferent to the frightful danger which their country is running in the present situation. I say that, in these circumstances, it is really a farce to ask the House of Commons to proceed with the discussion of this Bill on the Third Reading. If ever a proposal to adjourn a Debate was justified, it is on the present occasion. I hope that there is sufficient independence and Parliamentary spirit on the other side of the House to enable hon. Members opposite to give some support to this protest which is honestly made against a procedure which is in defiance of all Parliamentary tradition.
  Mr. WORTHINGTON EVANS: I beg to second the Motion. I hope that hon. Members opposite will consider it as a very serious proposal. It is such, at any rate, as far as Members on this side are concerned. We must all feel that we are face to face with a dangerous position, one which may become more dangerous at any moment, and we are asked to read for the third time a Bill which is supposed to be for the better government of Ireland. There is only one thing that we know about that Bill, and that is that, even if finally carried, the Government of Ireland will not be regulated by it. There is a new measure that we are to be asked to pass. Whatever there may be in that amending Bill, it is certain that the Bill

  2185
  which we are now asked to read a third time will not be the Bill under which Ireland is to be governed. Yesterday we spent hours discussing the finance of this Bill, but everybody felt that it was a waste of time, because it was certain that those financial provisions could never be applied to Ireland. My Noble Friend gave two possible reasons for the course the Government are taking in introducing the amending Bill in the House of Lords, and not in the House of Commons. I venture to add one more. If the Government were sincere and really intended that that amending Bill should effect such amendments in the present Bill that Ireland could be governed under it, and that it might be the means of effecting an agreement, there is no reason at all that I can think of why that Bill should not be introduced in this House. If, on the other hand, the Government feel that that which will be asked for from this side of the House is something which hon. Members here do not intend to give, then I can understand their introducing the Bill in the other House. They are very good electioneerers; they never miss an election cry if they can possibly help it. They have used the cry "Peers versus People" often and often. The introduction of this Bill into the other House may afford them another election cry. It may be said then that the other place refused to pass such an amending Bill as the Government proposed, and so refused to form a basis for an agreement in Ulster. That is a possibility. That may be the reason why the Government propose to introduce the Bill in another place. If the Government have an honest intention to form a basis of agreement, there is no reason why a trick like that should be played. There is no reason why the Bill should not be introduced into this House, and unless it is so introduced, it is, in my judgment, futile to attempt to continue this discussion.
  The PRIME MINISTER (Mr. Asquith): We have had two speeches which are very characteristic of the attitude which in these latter days is taken up by the Opposition at large with regard to this matter. If they were the dominant party in this House—[HON. MEMBERS: "We are!" "We
  2186
  are the biggest, and we are getting bigger!"]—if they were dictating terms of capitulation or surrender to a defeated and impotent minority, the sort of language which the Noble Lord and his Seconder employed would be perfectly appropriate to the occasion. But I beg to assure them that that is not the true situation. This Bill has passed through all its stages in this House—all but the last stage, which is being entered upon to-night—in three successive Sessions. It has been carried on every one of those stages—
  Mr. REMNANT: With dwindling majorities.
  The PRIME MINISTER: Not at all; with substantially undiminished majorities. It represents the deliberate and considered judgment of the House of Commons. [HON. MEMBERS: "Then why do you amend it?"] May I be allowed to continue? I say that it represents the deliberate and considered judgment of the House of Commons—[HON. MEMBERS: "No!"]—and we propose, by the Order of the Day which is now before the House, to ask the House to affirm once more, and for the last time, that it represents that judgment, after two years and three Sessions of reflection and consideration. I have said repeatedly, and I reiterate tonight, that, in the opinion of the Government, this Bill, both in its principle, in its detail, and in its machinery, is a wise and statesmanlike measure; that it provides safeguards adequate, and, indeed, abundant, for the protection of minorities against either religious, political, or social oppression. It has been framed in that spirit—
  Mr. REMNANT: So was the Preamble of the Parliament Act. [HON. MEMBERS: "Order!" "Chair!"]
  Mr. SPEAKER: I must ask the hon. Member for Holborn (Mr. Remnant) not to interrupt. This is not a public meeting. There will be plenty of opportunity— [HON. MEMBERS; "None!"]—to reply to the Prime Minister. I would respectfully suggest to hon. Members that we should continue the discussion in the ordinary-Parliamentary way.
  Earl WINTERTON: It is not the ordinary Parliamentary way
  The PRIME MINISTER: It has been framed in that spirit, and it is in that spirit that in all its stages it has been supported and carried in this House on the part of the majority. One of the great difficulties which we have had, and which we have now, in trying to arrive at what I still hope may not be unattainable, namely, a pacific settlement, is that whenever we make a proposal of any kind in the direction of peace—
  An HON. MEMBER: What is it?
  The PRIME MINISTER: Whatever it is. The Government made a proposal, which has been denounced as a hypocritical sham. [HON. MEMBERS: "It is the only one you have ever made!"] Whenever we make any proposal in the direction of agreement and peace it is taken, and taken exultingly, by speakers on the benches opposite as an admission on our part, after reflection, of the injustice of our scheme. I am speaking what is the common knowledge of the House of Commons. I make no such admission. The Government are going, when the Motion is put from the Chair for the Third Reading of this Bill, to ask the majority of the House of Commons to affirm its belief that this Bill is a just and a wise Bill. I do not recede, and will never recede, by one inch from that position. I have made proposals on behalf of my colleagues and myself in the direction of peace. They have not met with a very encouraging reception.
  Nevertheless, so important do we regard the matter, not from the fear of force, but from the desire, when any new system of government is set up in Ireland, that it should start upon its career in an atmosphere of something, at any rate, like general acquiescence and welcome, that with that motive, and with that motive only, we have put forward our proposals. Those would involve not, indeed, any transformation of the fundamental principles of this Bill—for this Bill in its entirety would apply, if these proposals were accepted and adopted, to three-quarters of Ireland—it would set up in Ireland what the vast majority of the Irish
  2188
  people desire to-day as they have desired for a generation past, a Legislature and an Executive of their own. We have made proposals in no sense inconsistent with the fundamental principles of this Bill, designed to meet the susceptibilities, the genuineness of which we recognise—the genuineness I mean in the sense of the motive, though the reality and the ground for which we do not believe to be capable of proof—in order to meet the susceptibilities, and in order to remove any possible suggestions of injustice, of oppression, of coercion. We have made proposals, the effect of which would be to give to the people at the poll, voting freely, a chance of saying whether or not they are prepared to come under the new scheme. That is a democratic proposal. I do not know why anybody who really believes that he has the sentiments of his fellow countrymen should be afraid of it. We have made that proposal, and we are prepared to continue to make it. For my part, as I have always said, and as I repeat to-day with the same strength and emphasis of conviction as ever before, we are ready to consider sympathetically, and not in a spirit of uncompromising opposition, any suggestions that may be, and can be, made to make those proposals more acceptable and more adaptable for the purpose for which they are intended. But, Sir, we must have as a preliminary to any proceeding of that kind, the firm and deliberate judgment of this House upon our main proposals. It is for that reason, and from no disrespect to this House, that we have thought it right that the proposals, the limited proposals, which we have agreed to embody in an amending Bill should be put forward in the first instance in another place. That does not in the least degree deprive this House of its ultimate authority, its supreme and determining authority, as to whether these proposals should or should not be accepted, or what form they should take!. The House of Commons would have the last and determining voice in the matter.
  We have been told that whatever Amendments were made in this Bill here, whatever amending Bill was passed, would not in the least degree affect the resolute

  2189
  determination of the majority in another place to reject this Bill upon Second Reading. We thought it would be a waste of time, and paying the House of Commons very ill compliment, if we were to ask it to spend hours, and days and even weeks, in elaborating suggestions which in all probability would be rejected. That seems to me a simple and ample justification for the course we have taken in the matter of procedure. With all respect to the House, and no one has a higher opinion than I have of its ultimate supreme jurisdiction and authority in that respect—and the Parliament Act was the greatest act of homage that has ever been paid to it!—with all respect to the House, we believe we are pursuing not only a constitutional, but a convenient course. I am certain that we are pursuing the only course which holds out any prospect of pacific agreement in the end. We have asked the House now to affirm the principle, of this Bill for the third time. Then, whatever may be its fate in another place—and we know very well what it is going to be!—I say that our proposals with regard to the one limited aspect and area may be for settlement and agreement, that those proposals, being there discussed, amended and amplified to any extent which that Assembly may desire, let them come back here, and the last voice in the matter will be the House of Commons, and the ultimate responsibility will be ours! That is the course which the Government, after full consideration of all the aspects of the case, believe to be the most consistent, both with the principle of this Bill and with their own honest and persistent desire to arrive at a settlement. Therefore, I ask the House unhesitatingly to reject the Motion.
  Mr. BONAR LAW: If the House had any doubt as to the advisability and, indeed, the necessity of the Motion which has been moved by my Noble Friend, that doubt is set at rest by the speech to which we have just listened. Incidentally, in the closing sentence of the right hon. Gentleman's speech, he exhibited his appreciation of the situation in a way which showed that he utterly misunderstands the whole position with which he has to deal. He told us that the last and final
  2190
  word would be left with the House of Commons, for which body, he told us, in words, he had so high a respect, but for which, in action, he has shown more contempt than any other man. He told us that the final word would rest with the House of Commons. He forgets one fact, that the House of Commons, after all, is supposed to represent another body outside, and that that body outside, as the right hon. Gentleman will find, in spite of all his party manœuvring, and in spite of his buying and selling of votes, that that is the final tribunal that will settle this question. The right hon. Gentleman made one remark with which I entirely agree. He said that he was adopting a convenient course. That is the sole explanation and the sole justification for the course which he is adopting to-day. He has told us that we, the Opposition, are treating him as if be were the captain of a garrison on the point of surrender. Why? Because we asked that before the House of Commons parts, as he maintains, or thinks, for the last time, with a Bill which is vitally to alter the whole Constitution of this country that the House of Commons ought to know what the proposals are with regard to it. He told us that it is treating him as if we were the dominant factor. It is asking, Mr. Speaker, what has never been refused to any House of Commons before, and what nothing but the extraordinary position in which the right hon. Gentleman finds himself would make him refuse now. What does he tell us?
  5.0 P.M.
  He tells us that this Bill, as it stands, represents not only the considered judgment of the House of Commons—it does represent la careful balancing of the methods by which you can get a majority in the House of Commons—but that it is a wise and just measure. In itself, he may think so; in vacuo, it may be so. But you have to deal with actual conditions. If the Bill is, as he professes it to be, why in the world is he going to amend it, and why is the House of Commons not to know in what way he proposes to amend it? The right hon. Gentleman tells us that every advance which he has made has been treated as a sign of weakness, and used as a means of pushing concessions further. Let me

  2191
  tell the House frankly what is my view of that. What is it? If is from first to last—I do not doubt that the right hon. Gentleman has desired a peaceful settlement, that he desires it now, that he would try to get it—but from first to last whatever proposals he may himself have entertained, the moment he comes up against his Parliamentary majority, that moment his views fall to the ground, and he considers only what will give him a majority. It has been so from the beginning. The right hon. Gentleman, at Ladybank, made a speech which really showed that he did desire to recognise the conditions of Ulster, and to treat them fairly. A month afterwards, at Leeds, he flew back to his original position, and made a speech that went completely back, as we all thought—and as one of his own colleagues, the President of the Board of Agriculture, said—went completely back on any proposal to exclude Ulster. What did we find in the House of Commons on the first day of the Session? Again, he spoke, in a real sense, of the exclusion of Ulster. The tempest rose again. He found he could not command his majority, and in two or three days he went back and brought forward a proposal which there is no man on that bench opposite, wherever he sits, does not know in his own mind is ludicrous and could not be accepted. And what is the position now? If the right hon. Gentleman really wants a settlement, wants to make proposals which fit the condition of things, which fit the situation in Ireland, what steps is he taking? If that were his view would not the reasonable and obvious course be to let the House of Commons know, to let the House of Commons discuss, and to let the House of Commons as a whole decide upon what alterations are to be made in the Bill. Why does he not take that course? The hon. Gentlemen on the Nationalist Benches below the Gangway will not permit him. And why? The hon. Member for Waterford on the discussion the other day showed clearly that what he expected as a result of the method of the right hon. Gentleman was that the Bill as it stands, and it alone, would go through.
  2192
  And to-day when my hon. Friend was speaking, when he said the Bill as it stands is not going to be put by the Government as the real measure, there were jeers from the Nationalist Benches. Then what does it mean? It means that they at least know where the right hon. Gentleman is drifting: that they understand the tactics; that what they mean by the proposals they made him adopt is, that this Bill is to be put upon the Statute Book, and if he can be made to do it, he is to use the whole forces of the British Crown to drive loyal men out of the Union.
  My hon. Friend below the Gangway, and my Noble Friend behind me, hoped that hon. Members opposite might be induced to see the unfairness and unreality of the course we are adopting. I believe many of them do see it; but all of us know it will not alter their votes. But this I do say, that the course which the right hon. Gentleman is adopting is an absolute insult to the House of Commons that it shows that in his view this whole question is not to be settled as the considered judgment of individual Members of the House of Commons; that it is to be settled as a bargain between him and the hon. Member for Waterford; that he will get the best terms he can from them, but that is the limit of his possibility of action, and that what they demand is what he must grant. That is not a position which is tolerable to the House of Commons, and he will find it, is not tolerable in the country. Everybody knows, and no one better than Gentlemen who sit upon the benches opposite, that the only interest in the discussion upon which we were to enter to-day is not the merits or the demerits of Home Rule, but it is the situation which has arisen in consequence of the Home Rule Bill, and that the whole situation depends, not upon the Bill, but upon the amending proposals which the Government intend to introduce. You cannot ask the impossible. You cannot ask the right hon. Gentleman to say what his proposals are if he does not know. That is impossible. But I do say that until he does know, until the House of Commons is able to judge of them, it is utterly wrong that the House of Commons should

  2193
  be asked to part for the last time with the Bill when they do not know in reality what the proposals of the Government are to be. I can only say in conclusion that in my view, farcical more or less as the discussions in the Second and Third Session under the Parliament Act are inevitably, I say that to ask us to formally discuss the Third Reading of the Home Rule Bill under these conditions is an absurdity, and I can see absolutely no use in taking part in them.
  Mr. MacCALLUM SCOTT: The right hon. Gentleman who has just resumed his seat does not seem to be able to make up his mind whether the Prime Minister is a tyrant dictating to the House, or whether the majority of the House is dictating to the Prime Minister. He has expressed both views. He told us, in the first instance, that the Prime Minister is tyrannising over the House of Commons, insulting it, treating the House of Commons as the House of Commons never has been treated before, and almost in the next breath he told us that, although he believed that the Prime Minister is sincerely desirous of obtaining a peaceful solution of the Irish problem, and that he has made attempts to secure that peaceful solution, yet whenever he finds himself in conflict with the majority of the House his schemes are withdrawn. [HON. MEMBERS: "In conflict with the Nationalist Members."] The expression I heard was "the majority of the House." I desire to call the attention of the Prime Minister to the manner in which the advances he has made have been received by the Opposition. He has made offers unparalleled in generosity. He has made offers such as a leader of a large majority in this House has never made before to the Opposition. He has pushed generosity almost to the extent of weakness, almost to the extent of surrender. And let me call his attention to the manner in which his offers are received. His first offer was a very clear and definite offer, namely, that he would grant to the counties of Ulster the option of exclusion for six years, and that he would make such Amendments in the Bill as were necessary to give effect to that offer if it were accepted. This offer was described as a hypocritical sham. It was
  2194
  rejected absolutely straight off. There was, therefore, no chance of that offer being accepted in this House at that stage of the Bill. After this offer was described as a hypocritical sham the Prime Minister went further and offered to introduce, after this Bill has been passed, an amending Bill giving effect to his previous offer. [Hon. MEMBERS: "What offer?"] That is the offer which I understood him to make, and now there is this other offer. [Hon. MEMBERS: "What is it?"] The offer to introduce an amending Bill giving effect to the offer which he has made, and the offer he made is perfectly clear. It is an offer to give the counties of Ulster the option of being excluded for six years—that is the only offer I heard put forward by the Government.
  Lord HUGH CECIL: Is that the amending Bill?
  Mr. MacCALLUM SCOTT: Yes, the right hon. Gentleman has offered to embody that offer in the amending Bill, and now this offer is described as a hypocritical sham. When the Prime Minister offers to bring forward his amending Bill it is used as a pretext to ask him to suspend discussion on this Bill and to withdraw it from passing at all, and it is described as an insult to the House of Commons. It is used as a pretext to ask the House not to proceed further with this Bill.
  As I indicated on a previous occasion, I think this offer of an amending Bill is one which is risky for the Government, and not too hopeful for those of the Opposition who do desire, and do honestly desire, a settlement. And in view of the manner in which it has been received I desire to impress strongly upon the Prime Minister the desirability of reconsidering his position with regard to his offer to introduce an amending Bill. It lies within the power of the Opposition to secure a full discussion of a compromise, to secure a full discussion of a settlement, if they so desire. [Hon. MEMBERS: "How?"] They can secure it in this House if they desire. The option still remains open to them under the Parliament Act. [Hon. MEMBERS: "How?"] I should have thought it was unnecessary

  2195
  to explain how, but I will explain how. The Bill, if passed by this House, will proceed to the House of Lords. The House of Lords now have the knowledge that this Bill must pass into law within a few weeks. That is inevitable, and knowing that, they can, without any sacrifice of principle, but with the object of diminishing what they believe to be the evils of the Bill, pass its Second Reading. And, having passed the Second Reading, they can proceed to amend it as drastically as they please. They can exclude the whole of Ulster or make whatever Amendments they please, and then they can send back the Bill in its amended form to this House. If the Bill is returned from the House of Lords in that form this House would have to consider these Amendments. It is possible it will not be willing to accept them in that form. It will not be able, under the terms of the Parliament Act, to change them, because if it did it would be falling into a trap, and when the Bill went back to the House of Lords all they would have to do would be to reject it, and the work of the past three years would be sacrificed. But still there would be an opportunity for a Suggestion stage, if really desired by the Opposition. And if we were not able to accept the Amendments inserted by the Lords, then would arise the opportunity of embodying in Suggestions such Amendments as this House was willing to conceive. I suggest if hon. Members do honestly desire to discuss this Amendment, as they profess to do, and the promised suggestions—[HON. MEMBERS: "What are they?"] "What is the use of saying" What are they? "They are the option to the counties of Ulster to remain out. If they do honestly desire to discuss them or to enlarge them, they can exercise that option through their party, which has a majority in the House of Lords, by returning the Bill to this House.
  In view of the manner in which the unparalleled generosity of the Government has been received in shouldering a burden which does not belong to them, but which properly belongs to the Opposition, and in granting to the Opposition opportunities which they refuse to take for themselves, I desire to impress upon the Prime
  2196
  Minister the desirability of withdrawing his offer of an amending Bill and throwing upon the Opposition the burdens and the responsibilities, which are theirs, of securing that opportunity for the consideration of Amendments, which they can secure if they desire. I think, in view of the result in North-East Derbyshire, and in view of the overwhelming demonstration of support for the policy of Home Rule there, in view of the fact that a certain candidate who was returned there to oppose the policy of Home Rule—and there are many other candidates similarly returned—represents not a majority of the people of North-East Derbyshire, but only an insignificant minority, I think the Prime Minister can draw the conclusion that in whatever measures are necessary to enforce the decree of the majority of this House he will have the support of the majority of the people of this country.
  Mr. RONALD M'NEILL: I hope the incident which appears to have caused some amusement has served to restore the equanimity of the hon. Member who has just addressed the House, and I hope he will not mind me prefacing my observations by expressing the hope that the intensity of his mental excitement will not have the result of inflicting any physical damage. There is one thing, however, for which we may be grateful to him, and it is that he has been good enough to give us one piece of information which the Prime Minister absolutely refused to give. The right hon. Gentleman refused more than once, even when pressed by my right hon. Friend, to give any information to the House as to what the amending Bill is to contain. If the hon. Member who has just sat down is in the confidence of the Government, as I imagine he must be from the character of his vehemence, we have learned from him that the amending Bill is to contain nothing whatever except the so-called proposals which the Prime Minister laid before the House on the 9th March. I do think it would be of some advantage, both to the temper of the House and the future of the present Debate, if we could get from the Front Government Bench any confirmation of the information which has been given by the hon. Member

  2197
  opposite. So far as the Prime Minister is concerned, we might accept every word he has said to-day on this subject and still we should be able to urge upon the House that no reason has been given to us for not giving the House an outline of the whole proposals of the Government before we are called upon to debate the Third Reading of the Home Rule Bill.
  The Prime Minister tells us that the Home Rule Bill has the confidence of this House and the country in those phrases which we have heard from him so often before. Even if that be true, why in the world, because the House and the country may have confidence in the Home Rule Bill, is that any reason why the House and the country should not be given the information which the Government have in their own minds as to what their total proposals are going to be for dealing with the whole of the Irish question. It is quite clear to us all that it is only because of the necessity imposed upon the Government and the House by the peculiar provisions of the Parliament Act that we are to have an amending Bill at all. It is obvious that if the Government want, as they say they want, to introduce for some reason or other changes in their proposals for the future Government of Ireland which have been laid before the House and the country, and which they could do but for the Parliament Act, they could make those changes by an amendment of the Bill. When we are debating the Third Reading and accepting the particular procedure of the amending Bill why are we not to be told, as we should have been told but for the complication of the Parliament Act, what the Government intend to do. My hon. Friend who introduced this Motion suggested that there could only be two reasons why the Prime Minister refused to give us this information. One was that the right hon. Gentleman did not himself know what he was going to put in, and the other was that he was afraid of the effect his proposals might have if disclosed to the House.
  I think it is possible that there is a third explanation. On this side of the House we cannot escape from the recognition of the fact that we are now approaching the
  2198
  end of what we have been for a long time entangled in, and that is a long series of duplicities which have created a vast amount of distrust of the Government, not only in this House, but in the country at large. The third explanation is not that the right hon. Gentleman does not know what he is going to put in his amending Bill, not that he is afraid of the result of it when it is produced, but that he has not got, and never had, the slightest intention of producing an amending Bill at all. I think that will probably be found to be the true explanation. The right hon. Gentleman knows quite well that when he has got the Third Reading, and passed it through by the automatic machinery prepared for it elsewhere, that then the situation may or may not arise in which he can dispense with an amending Bill. The right hon. Gentleman wants to keep this up his sleeve as an escape from a situation which may, at any rate, become too dangerous for him to face. The right hon. Gentleman may find that a moment comes when he must obey the behests of the hon. Member for Salford and other hon. Members who have come out lately in the character of Bashi Bazouks. He may find that he has the forces of the Crown which he can use to destroy the people in Ulster, for whom the hon. Member who has just sat down seems to care less than he does for the people of the Malay Peninsula; but we have a right to tie the Prime Minister to some pledge more than his spoken word that we are to have an amending Bill at all, and that is why we should refuse to have this Debate.
  Sir HENRY DALZIEL: I think the exact position in which we are placed cannot be regarded in any quarter of the House as entirely satisfactory. I regard the situation before us more as a House of Commons point than a party point. I have had some considerable experience in this House, and I must say that I can recollect no occasion on which we were asked to give a verdict without knowing that it was to be a final verdict, having before us the fact that a vital proposition affecting any decision we might arrive at might be brought before us at a later stage. We all know that the Prime Minister is

  2199
  actuated in this matter by the desire to bring about a peaceful settlement of this most unfortunate situation. We all know—and I am sure the right hen. Gentleman will be the first to admit—that his supporters have trusted him loyally throughout in this matter. Some of us have had occasion, as we thought fit, to severely criticise his policy, not only in regard to the abduction of the powers of the Government on many occasions in Ireland, but in regard to many of the proposals brought forward in regard to this measure. We have been told one day that it is a complete and final measure, and the next day we have had suggestions of vital amendments in regard to it. We are asked to stand by this Bill, and we are informed at the same time that a Bill which may vitally alter the character of this measure, if the Government have their way, is again to come before this House.
  We must have more information before we can give an intelligent vote even on this Motion for the adjournment of the Debate. Is it the case, as the hon. Gentleman said, that the amending Bill is to be confined to the limited proposition of county option? I think we ought to know that. If that is so, then we can give an intelligent vote not only on the Adjournment, but on the Third Reading of the Bill. If it is the case that the Government are simply going to confine their amending measure to embodying the legislative proposal that certain counties are to have the option under certain conditions of excluding themselves from this measure for six years, we can go into the Lobby knowing what we are voting for. We ought to have at the same time an undertaking that the Government are not going to suggest or accept any vital proposal that may be brought forward in the House of Lords. We ought to know from the Government whether what has been suggested is the proposal which is going to be contained in the amending Bill. I think the House of Commons, irrespective of party, ought to know that before they can give an intelligent vote, or a vote that is very little more than a farce, on the Third Reading.
  I would in all seriousness ask the Prime Minister and the Government why is this
  2200
  amending Bill to be brought forward at all. Who has asked for it? Have the right hon. Gentlemen on the front Opposition Bench asked for it? No! The moment the Suggestions were put forward by the Prime Minister they were called "a hypocritical sham," and that view was supported by hon. Members opposite. No man in this House has asked for this amending Bill, and it has been treated with contempt on every occasion, and no encouragement whatever has been given to it. Have the Nationalist Members from Ireland asked for it? No! No one has welcomed it, but, on the contrary, views entirely antagonistic to it have been expressed. I have known no hon. Members on this side of the House who have supported this amending Bill. Therefore, this suggestion has either been made too late or too early, and it ought to have been brought forward on the responsibility of the Government, and it should have been allowed to take its chance in another place. If it is to be brought forward now, then the House of Commons as the supreme Chamber should have a voice in settling the matter.
  I appeal to the Prime Minister to give us an undertaking that before the Division on the Third Reading is taken he will indicate what is, and what is not, going to be in the amending Bill. For my part, I think the Government have gone to the very limits of conciliation in regard to this matter. I do not say that they ought not to go further, but I do say that on the Opposition side there has not been one single word of encouragement from the very commencement, and you cannot expect a Government to ask their supporters to go on for three years voting for a Bill and then at the very last moment on their own initiative, because certain external circumstances have altered the situation—I will not inquire into that now because it ought not to have any weight with the Government or with their power and authority to carry out legislation and the law of this country—amend the Bill because the situation has changed. I ask the right hon. Gentleman to give an assurance to the House that he will take into consideration the question whether he cannot give us more information as to what this amending Bill is to contain, and

  2201
  what is the position of the Government in regard to it before a final vote is taken on this very important measure.
  Lord HUGH CECIL: I think both hon. Members who have spoken on the other side of the House seem to have misconceived the situation altogether. We are making this Motion for the Adjournment in order that we may get the central fact, and until we get that we do not know whether the answer is conciliatory or unconciliatory. We are told that the Prime Minister is always making advances, but I deny that altogether, for he has never made the slightest advance in this matter from the beginning to the end. The right hon. Gentleman has tried to adjust his scheme to new conditions, but that is characteristic of a lucid interval in the counsels of the Cabinet. The Government started with a most insane and foolish policy which led Ireland to the brink of civil war. Ireland was peaceful and happy before the Government suggested the separation of one part of Ireland from the other, forgetting that it was the elementary duty of a Government to adjust their scheme to meet the situation which had arisen. They have made no concession to the Opposition, and, indeed, there is no occasion to make concessions to the Opposition. We want no offers; we want no conciliation whatever as an Opposition. What we want is that the Government should do what they think right, and we will support them if we think it right. What else can patriotic legislators do? Our business is to co-operate with the Government in what we conceive to be for the good government of the country, and especially in avoiding civil war, and from that duty we certainly are not going to shrink. We earnestly desire, as they earnestly desire, to avoid civil war, and what steps it is necessary for us to take to avoid civil war we may reasonably be called upon to take. There is no question of bargain between the two sides; there is no question of our being asked to vote in any way except in strict accordance with our conscience, whether in this House or in the other House. Our position is a perfectly plain one. We ask now that the Government
  2202
  will tell us in what respect they think that their scheme will have to be modified? We do not ask it as a favour to the Opposition or as a matter of conciliation. We ask it as a matter of common sense and decent respect for the House of Commons. We say that to engage on a Debate like this without knowing what is the central feature of the Bill that you are going to discuss is to treat the House of Commons as if it were a very silly sort of debating society.
  What are we going to debate? The Home Rule Bill as it is, or as it is going to be? How can we possibly discuss the finance of the Bill or the judiciary, or the Customs arrangements of the Bill, or the constitution of the new House of Commons, or of the new Senate, if we do not know whether Ulster is to be included or not? It is obvious that the whole Bill will have to be different in machinery if you cut out Ulster. We know that they are going to cut out Ulster, somehow or in some degree, but we do not know by what method or in what degree. The hon. Member seems to think that they are going to stand by their old plan, but the Prime Minister did not say so. The real difficulty there was, not that it happened to be ill received by my right hon. Friend, but that it was not suited to the conditions. If the Government have got a plan which will suit the conditions, let them bring it forward. It does not take a minute of Parliamentary time. Let them bring in their amending Bill under the Standing Orders before next Tuesday. It is perfectly manifest that somebody is going to be tricked. There is no genuine honest reason for making a secret of this kind. My hope is that it is the Nationalist party who are going to be tricked. It may be them, or it may be us, but that somebody is going to be tricked is perfectly plain, and for the right hon. Gentleman to talk as if we were treating him as a defeated garrison because we ask a perfectly plain question about a matter which every House of Commons before this would have asked is to insult our intelligence after he has insulted the self-respect of this Assembly. We are treated not only as if we were children playing at a debate, but as if we were

  2203
  fools who believed any silly story he likes to tell us. I protest against the course the Government are taking, because it is one more blow at the dignity of the House of Commons. I protest against it also because it is plain evidence that they are engaged on a course essentially perfidious which they dare not bring to the light of day.
  Mr. CROFT: I only desire to say one or two words on this subject. We are entitled to hear whether the Prime Minister agrees with the view of the hon. Member who represents one of the Glasgow Divisions as to the meaning of the amending Bill. We are entitled to know whether that is the meaning or not. The present suggestion to send the amending Bill to the House of Lords, which the Government themselves have frequently told us is quite incapable of debating any question and which is full, according to the Chancellor of the Exchequer in his various speeches, of robbers of poor boxes and thieves and kangaroos, seems to me an extraordinary way of treating this House of Commons at the present time. I do think that this House is entitled to know, when the hon. Member has got up, and, speaking as we know for a very large number of his party, deliberately said that the amending Bill is only going to contain the six years' proposal, from the Prime Minister whether it is a true expression of the Liberal Government's policy on this occasion or not. If that is the suggestion, it is perfectly clear there is no reason whatever why the Government cannot repeat that offer now. Otherwise, by Parliamentary means this House is being tricked in a most disgraceful manner, as the right hon. Gentleman on the last occasion he spoke said he was going to make an offer far in advance of any previous action. If it simply means the previous offer we have heard before, I can only say that it is the most disgraceful, base trickery, and that it is not the way to bring about a settlement of this question before civil war takes place.
  Mr. AMERY: The protest of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for the
  2204
  Kirkcaldy Burghs (Sir Henry Dalziel) shows that even the right hon. Gentleman's supporters are beginning to kick against the last indignity inflicted upon this House under the Parliament Act, and the meaning and purpose of this indignity is just this, that the Prime Minister himself does not know to-day what he means to do with Ulster or what he means to do with this Bill. This House has simply got to undergo to-day the same thing it has undergone for the last three years—being allowed to drift on into an impossible and appalling situation simply because an old Gentleman cannot make up his mind.
  Mr. SPEAKER: If I caught the expression of the hon Member, "an old Gentleman who could not make up his mind," correctly—
  Mr. AMERY: Yes.
  Mr. SPEAKER: It is a very improper expression, and it is discourteous.
  Mr. AMERY: I withdraw the reference to the right hon. Gentleman's age, but I certainly do say that the whole of the appalling situation in which this country is drifting is because the Prime Minister cannot make up his mind. His supporters think that he is a man of iron and rock, but he is like some old piece of driftwood grown over with weeds and limpets which looks like a rock until you see it drifting up and down the tide. From beginning to end he has drifted in this business. He drifted into Home Rule with Mr. Gladstone, and he drifted out again with Lord Rosebery. When he drifted into it again four years ago, he came at once against this question of Ulster. It was no new question; it was exactly the same question as twenty years ago. What attempt did he make to deal with if? The essential features of the situation then were the same as they are to-day, only things had not gone so far as they have gone now, and the same settlement which, if it is to settle things, must come to-day, if it had come then it would have been far better for the peace and welfare of this country. When arguments were produced on this side and were produced by his own followers, did he pay

  2205
  the slightest attention? Why did he not pay attention? It was because to do so would have involved some definite action. It would have involved making up his mind and coming to some definite understanding with the hon. and learned Member for Waterford (Mr. John Redmond). So he drifted on. On the other hand, he took no steps when Ulster was arming to stop Ulster arming.
  Mr. SPEAKER: The hon. Member is now violating the Standing Order of the House, which says that the Debate must be confined to the question of the Adjournment. He is now ranging over the whole policy.
  Mr. AMERY: I do not wish to range over the whole policy, but I do wish to bring out that what the Prime Minister is doing to-day in not telling us what he means to do is exactly what he has done throughout the whole of the business. He has drifted from one stage to another; he drifted into proposals which he knew were impossible and unworkable; he drifted into the Pogrom in the wake of the First Lord's "Dreadnoughts." Again, when the hon. Member for Stoke (Mr. John Ward) raised a storm in a teacup he drifted again into the cancelling of his pledges.
  Mr. SPEAKER: I have twice called the hon. Member to order, and, if he offends again a third time, I shall have to ask him to resume his seat.
  Mr. AMERY: I am only giving illustrations, and other Members who have spoken have also given illustrations, but, of course, I have no desire to infringe your ruling by exceeding the limit of fair illustration. It is time, at any rate, that the Prime Minister should make up his mind on this question. After all, there is not an infinite variety of courses which he can take. There are only two or three possible courses before him. He can go on, as the right hon. Gentleman the Member for the Kirkcaldy Burghs and some of his Friends would like him to go on, with his whole policy without attempting to find any real solution; with his policy as it stands in this Bill; or amended with those ridiculous proposals put forward last March. If so, the sooner he begins mobilising his
  2206
  troops and sending battleships to coerce the people of Ulster and the Unionists of this country the better for all concerned. If, on the other hand, he wishes to preserve peace by the exclusion of Ulster, then let him exclude Ulster, not Ulster as he defines it, or exclusion as he defines it, but Ulster and exclusion as the 100,000 armed covenanters define it. You did not listen to the men of Ulster when they only used arguments. The first time you listened to them was when you felt that they were strong, and the last proposal for peace, such as it was, you did produce was after they had landed 30,000 rifles to make sure that they were not to be coerced. That is the other alternative, and the third is the one for which we have stood right through. It is that the Government should go and consult the people of this country before they attempt to carry their odious measure into effect. Those are the obvious questions on which the Prime Minister can decide, and it is time that ha should decide.
  It is time he stopped drifting round and round in circles, and made up his mind whether he is going to go on. Let him get somewhere. Let him get on, or let him get out. I believe that is the true and main explanation of the manner in which this business is being brought before the House now. There is another possible explanation. It is, I suppose, the idea that if he should by any chance find some scheme of exclusion, whether by selling his supporters behind him or by some-other means to content the people of Ulster and avoid civil war, he could then turn round and say, "You have by the exclusion of Ulster assented to the inclusion of the rest of Ireland in a Home Rule Bill." What right has he to make that assumption? There is nothing in what the Leaders of our party have said that does in any degree imply that the passing of this Bill by force over our heads mitigates the determination of Unionists to see that this Bill should never be carried into effect. The amended Bill may possibly avoid civil war between this time and an election, but, if an election takes place, as by the admission of right hon. Gentlemen opposite it will take place, before this Bill is put into operation, and we, as the

  2207
  Unionist party, go to the country and secure the verdict of the country in our favour. [Laughter.]—I am putting the alternative.
  Mr. SPEAKER: The hon. Member is now discussing the Bill. His speech would be perfectly relevant to the Bill, but it is not relevant to the Motion for the Adjournment. I will give him one more chance.
  Mr. AMERY: I was trying to explain the reason why we are not told about the amending Bill.
  Mr. SPEAKER: The hon. Member was "talking about going to the country, and about hon. Members being prepared.
  Mr. AMERY: What I wished to say was that the object of the Government—[Interruption.]
  Earl WINTERTON: You are not to speak. This is not a public meeting.
  Mr. AMERY: It will be suggested, if this Rill is read a third time, that the Unionist party have acquiesced in a Home Rule Bill for the rest of Ireland, and I say that if in the event of a General Election the Unionist party were returned to power, they would, by repealing this Bill, prove that they had not in any sense acquiesced in such a proposal. That is all I wanted to make clear. We are put into this position because the Prime Minister does not and apparently cannot make up his mind at any moment on this business, or he has some idea of tricking cither the Unionist party or the hon. Members from Ireland who support the hon. and learned Member for Waterford.
  Mr. C. WASON: The hon. Member has qualified himself for the post of Poet Laureate when his party comes into power. I rise practically for the purpose of repudiating certain observations which have fallen from hon. Gentlemen on this side. It is nothing to me what hon. Gentlemen on the other side say, but I do protest against the inference which may be drawn from what was said, I believe honestly and sincerely, by the hon. Member for Kirkcaldy (Sir H. Dalziel). Several hon. Members on this side have spoken forcibly with reference to the
  2208
  action of the Prime Minister. I myself honestly and sincerely believe that that action has been most admirable, and that it provides the only method by which we can hope to arrive at some peaceful solution of the problem with which we are faced. We are not children, but sometimes we are very like children playing on the brink of a precipice. It occurred to me in my youth during my schoolboy days to be blown up by gunpowder, so I know what it means. I say that the action of the House of Commons in this terrible crisis is not calculated to conduce to a peaceful solution, but it does seem to me that the doctrine laid down by the Prime Minister indicates most admirably the course we ought to pursue. If he were now to produce the amending Bill, which is so very emphatically demanded by hon. Members opposite, it is clear that the reception given to it would not be of a character likely to lead to a peaceful solution of the difficulty. I do not want to say one word calculated to cause irritation, but I am confident that the attitude of the Prime Minister deserves the confidence, not only of the Liberal party throughout the country, but also of those men on the Unionist and Conservative side who are sincerely desirous of bringing about a peaceful solution of the difficulty.
  Mr. PRINGLE: I regret to some extent the intervention of the hon. Member who has just spoken. I think it is somewhat unlucky he should have ventured to criticise the speech of my right hon. Friend the Member for Kirkcaldy, which I do not think he heard.
  Mr. C. WASON: I heard a quarter of it.
  Mr. PRINGLE: If the hon. Member had heard the whole of it I do not think he would have ventured to make the remarks to which we have just listened. I do not intend to follow in the footsteps of the hon. Member for South Birmingham (Mr. Amery). I am not going to speak as if this were a Debate on the Third Reading of the Bill. I will try to keep myself to the Question immediately before the House. I think there is much force in the plea which my right hon. Friend put to the Government, that before the Debate

  2209
  on the Third Reading of the Home Rule Bill comes to a conclusion in this House, the Government should announce at least the main points which are to be embodied in the amending Bill to be introduced in the House of Lords. I put this plea forward in no spirit of hostility to the Government or with any intention to endanger the progress of a settlement of the Home Rule question. I am one of those who distrust to some extent the policy of an amending Bill, but apart from the merits of the procedure which the Govern-
  ment have adopted, I think it is due to the House of Commons and to its power over legislation that I should join in enforcing this appeal on the Government for an assurance that, before the conclusion of the Debate, the main points to be embodied in the amending Bill shall be announced.
  Question put, "That the Debate be now adjourned."
  The House divided: Ayes, 176; Noes, 286.

  Division No. 117.]

  AYES.

  [5.50 p.m.

  Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

  Fitzroy, Hon. Edward A.

  Newdegate, F. A.

  Amery, L. C. M. S.

  Flannery, Sir J. Fortescue

  Newman, John R. P.

  Anstruther-Gray, Major William

  Foster, Philip Staveley

  Newton, Harry Kottingham

  Archer-Shee, Major Martin

  Gastrell, Major W. Houghton

  Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield)

  Baird, John Lawrence

  Gilmour, Captain J.

  O'Neill, Hon. A. E. B. (Antrim, Mid)

  Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (City. London)

  Goldman, C. S.

  Orde-Powlett, Hon. W. G. A.

  Banbury, Sir Frederick George

  Gordon, John (Londonderry, South)

  Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William

  Banner, Sir John S. Harmood-

  Gordon, Hon. John Edward (Brighton)

  Parker, Sir Gilbert (Gravesend)

  Barnston, Harry

  Goulding, Edward Alfred

  Perkins, Walter F.

  Beckett, Hon. Gervase

  Grant, J. A.

  Pole-Carew, Sir R.

  Benn, Arthur Shirley (Plymouth)

  Gretton, John

  Pollock, Ernest Murray

  Benn, Ion Hamilton (Greenwich)

  Guinness, Hon. Rupert (Essex, S. E.)

  Pretyman, Ernest George

  Beresford, Lord Charles

  Guinness, Hon. W. E. (Bury S. Edmunds)

  Quilter, Sir William Eley C.

  Bigland, Alfred

  Gwynne, R. S. (Sussex, Eastbourne)

  Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel

  Bird, Alfred

  Hall, D. B. (Isle of Wight)

  Rees, Sir J. D.

  Blair, Reginald

  Hamilton, C. G. C. (Ches., Altrincham)

  Remnant, James Farquharson

  Boscawen, Sir Arthur S. T. Griffith

  Hamilton, Lord C. J. (Kensington, S.)

  Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall)

  Boyton, James

  Hardy, Rt. Hon. Laurence

  Rolleston, Sir John

  Brassey, H. Leonard Campbell

  Harris, Henry Percy

  Ronaldshay, Earl of

  Bull, Sir William James

  Harrison-Broadley, H. B.

  Royds, Edmund

  Burn, Colonel C. R.

  Henderson, Major H. (Berks, Abingdon)

  Rutherford, John (Lancs., Darwen)

  Butcher, John George

  Herbert, Hon. A. (Somerset, S.)

  Samuel, Sir Harry (Norwood)

  Campbell, Captain Duncan F. (Ayr, N.)

  Hewins, William Albert Samuel

  Samuel, Samuel (Wandsworth)

  Campbell, Rt. Hon. J. (Dublin Univ.)

  Hoare, S. J. G.

  Sanderson, Lancelot

  Campion, W. R.

  Hohler, G. F.

  Sandys, G. J.

  Carlile, Sir Edward Hildred

  Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield)

  Sessoon, Sir Philip

  Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward H.

  Hope, Major J. A. (Midlothian)

  Sharman-Crawford, Colonel R. G.

  Cassel, Felix

  Horne, E. (Surrey, Guildford)

  Smith, Rt. Hon. F. E. (L'pool, Walton)

  Castlereagh, Viscount

  Houston, Robert paterson

  Spear, Sir John Ward

  Cautley, Henry Strother

  Hume-Williams, William Ellis

  Stanier, Beville

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Ingleby, Holcombe

  Swift, Rigby

  Cecil, Lord Hugh (Oxford University)

  Jardine, E. (Somerset, East)

  Talbot, Lord Edmund

  Cecil, Lord R. (Herts, Hitchin)

  Jessel, Captain H. M.

  Terrell, George (Wilts, N. W.)

  Chaloner, Colonel R. G. W.

  Kerry, Earl of

  Terrell, Henry (Gloucester)

  Chambers, J.

  Keswick, Henry

  Thompson, Robert (Belfast, North)

  Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry

  Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement

  Thomson, W. Mitchell (Down, North)

  Clive, Captain Percy Archer

  Lane-Fox, G. R.

  Tickler, T. G.

  Coates, Major Sir Edward Feetham

  Larmor, Sir J.

  Tobin, Alfred Aspinall

  Cooper, Sir Richard Ashmole

  Law, Rt. Hon. A. Bonar (Bootle)

  Touche, George Alexander

  Courthope, George Loyd

  Lawson, Hon. H. (T. H'mts., Mile End)

  Tryon, Captain George Clement

  Craig, Ernest (Cheshire, Crewe)

  Lloyd, George Ambrose (Stafford, W.)

  Valentia, Viscount

  Craig, Norman (Kent, Thanet)

  Lloyd, George Butler (Shrewsbury)

  Walrond, Hon. Lionel

  Craik, Sir Henry

  Locker-Lampson, G. (Salisbury)

  Warde, Colonel C. E. (Kent, Mid)

  Croft, H. P.

  Lockwood, Rt. Hon. Lt.-Colonel A. R.

  Weston, Colonel J. W.

  Currie, George W.

  Lowe, Sir F. W. (Birm., Edgbaston)

  Wheler, Granville C. H.

  Dairymple, Viscount

  Lyttelton, Hon. J. C. (Droitwich)

  White, Major G. D. (Lancs., Southport)

  Dalziel, Davison (Brixton)

  MacCaw, William J. MacGeagh

  Willoughby, Major Hon. Claud

  Denison-Pender, J. C.

  Mackinder, Halford J.

  Wilson, A. Stanley (Yorks, E. R.)

  Denniss, E. R. B.

  Macmaster, Donald

  Wilson, Captain Leslie O. (Reading)

  Dickson, Rt. Hon. C. Scott

  M'Calmont, Major Robert C. A.

  Wilson, Maj. Sir M. (Bethnal Green, S. W.)

  Dixon, C. H.

  M'Neill, Ronald (Kent, St. Augustine's)

  Winterton, Earl

  Duke, Henry Edward

  Magnus, Sir Philip

  Wolmer, Viscount

  Duncannon, Viscount

  Malcolm, Ian

  Wood, Hon. E. F. L. (Yorks, Ripon)

  Du Pre, W. Baring

  Meysey-Thompson, E. C.

  Wood, John (Stalybridge)

  Eyres-Monsell, Bolton M.

  Middlemore, John Throgmorton

  Worthington Evans, L.

  Faber, George Denison (Clapham)

  Mildmay, Francis Bingham

  Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart.

  Falle, Bertram Godfray

  Mills, Hon. Charles Thomas

  Yate, Colonel C. E.

  Fell, Arthur

  Morrison-Bell, Major A. C. (Honiton)

  Finlay, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert

  Mount, William Arthur

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr.

  Fisher, Rt. Hon. W. Hayes

  Neville, Reginald J. N.

  Pike Pease and Major Stanley.

  NOES.

  Abraham, William (Dublin, Harbour)

  Flavin, Michael Joseph

  Marks, Sir George Croydon

  Acland, Francis Dyke

  Furness, Sir Stephen Wilson

  Marshall, Arthur Harold

  Adamson, William

  Gelder, Sir W. A.

  Martin, Joseph

  Agnew, Sir George Croydon

  George, Rt. Hon. D. Lloyd

  Mason, David M. (Coventry)

  Ainsworth, John Stirling

  Gill, A. H.

  Meagher, Michael

  Alden, Percy

  Ginnell, Laurence

  Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.)

  Allen, Arthur A. (Dumbartonshire)

  Gladstone, W. G. C.

  Meehan, Patrick J. (Queen's Co., Leix).

  Allen, Rt. Hon. Charles P. (Stroud)

  Glanville, Harold James

  Millar, James Duncan

  Arnold, Sydney

  Goldstone, Frank

  Molloy, Michael

  Asquith, Rt. Hon. Herbert Henry

  Greig, Colonel James William

  Molteno, Percy Alport

  Baker, Harold T. (Accrington)

  Griffith, Ellis Jones

  Mond, Rt. Hon. Sir Alfred

  Baker, Joseph Allen (Finsbury, E.)

  Guest, Hon. Major C. H. C. (Pembroke)

  Money, L. C. Chiozza.

  Balfour, Sir Robert (Lanark)

  Guest, Hon. Frederick E. (Dorset, E.)

  Montagu, Hon. E. S.

  Baring, Sir Godfrey (Barnstaple)

  Gwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway)

  Mooney, John J.

  Barlow, Sir John Emmott (Somerset)

  Hackett, John

  Morgan, George Hay

  Barnes, George N.

  Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Lewis (Rossendale)

  Morrell, Philip

  Beale, Sir William Phipson

  Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose)

  Morison, Hector

  Beauchamp, Sir Edward

  Harmsworth, Cecil (Luton, Beds)

  Morton, Alpheus Cleophas

  Benn, W. W. (T. Hamlets, St. George)

  Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale)

  Muldoon, John

  Bentham, George Jackson

  Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth)

  Munro, Rt. Hon. Robert

  Bethell, Sir John Henry

  Havelock-Allan, Sir Henry

  Murphy, Martin J.

  Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine

  Hayden, John Patrick

  Murray, Captain Hon. Arthur C.

  Black, Arthur W.

  Hayward, Evan

  Needham, Christopher T.

  Boland, John Pius

  Hazleton, Richard

  Nolan, Joseph

  Booth, Frederick Handel

  Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

  Norton, Captain Cecil W.

  Bowerman, Charles W.

  Henderson, John M. (Aberdeen, W.)

  Nugent, Sir Walter Richard

  Boyle, Daniel (Mayo, North)

  Henry, Sir Charles

  Nuttall, Harry

  Brace, William

  Herbert, General Sir Ivor (Mon., S.)

  O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

  Brady, Patrick Joseph

  Hewart, Gordon

  O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)

  Brunner, John F. L.

  Higham, John Sharp

  O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)

  Bryce, J. Annan

  Hinds, John

  O'Doherty, Philip

  Buckmaster, Sir Stanley O.

  Hobhouse, Rt. Hon. Charles E. H.

  O'Donnell, Thomas

  Burns, Rt. Hon. John

  Hodge, John

  O'Dowd, John

  Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas

  Hogge, James Myles

  O'Kelly, Edward P. (Wicklow, W.)

  Byles, Sir William Pollard

  Holmes, Daniel Turner

  O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N.)

  Carr-Gomm, H. W.

  Holt, Richard Durning

  O'Malley, William

  Cawley, Sir Frederick (Prestwich)

  Howard, Hon. Geoffrey

  O'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, S.)

  Cawley, Harold T. (Lancs., Heywood)

  Hudson, Walter

  O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

  Chancellor, Henry George

  Hughes, Spencer Leigh

  O'Shee, James John

  Chapple, Dr. William Allen

  John, Edward Thomas

  O'Sullivan, Timothy

  Clancy, John Joseph

  Johnson, W.

  Outhwaite, R. L.

  Clough, William

  Jones, Rt. Hon. Sir D. Brynmor (Swansea)

  Palmer, Godfrey Mark

  Collins, Godfrey P. (Greenock)

  Jones, Edgar (Merthyr Tydvil)

  Parker, James (Halifax)

  Collins, Sir Stephen (Lambeth)

  Jones, J. Towyn (Carmarthen, East)

  Parry, Thomas H.

  Compton-Rickett, Rt. Hon. Sir J.

  Jones, Leif (Notts, Rushcliffe)

  Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek)

  Condon, Thomas Joseph

  Jones, William S. Glyn- (Stepney)

  Pearce, William (Limehouse)

  Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.

  Jowett, Frederick William

  Pease, Rt. Hon. Joseph A. (Rotherhamt)

  Cotton, William Francis

  Joyce, Michael

  Phillips, John (Longford, S.)

  Cowan, William Henry

  Kellaway, Frederick George

  Pointer, Joseph

  Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth)

  Kelly, Edward

  Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H.

  Crooks, William

  Kennedy, Vincent Paul

  Pratt, J. W.

  Crumley, Patrick

  Kenyon, Barnet

  Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central)

  Cullinan, John

  Kilbride, Denis

  Priestley, Sir Arthur (Grantham)

  Davies, Ellis William (Eiflon)

  King, Joseph

  Priestley, Sir W. E. B. (Bradford, E.)

  Davies, Timothy (Lincs., Louth)

  Lamb, Sir Ernest Henry

  Primrose, Hon. Neil James

  Davies, M. Vaughan- (Cardiganshire)

  Lambert, Rt. Hon. G. (Devon, S. Molten)

  Radford, G. H.

  Dawes, James Arthur

  Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade)

  Rea, Rt. Hon. Russell (South Shields)

  De Forest, Baron

  Lardner, James C. R.

  Reddy, Michael

  Delany, William

  Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, West)

  Redmond, John E. (Waterford)

  Denman, Hon. Richard Douglas

  Lawson, Sir W. (Cumb'rid, Cockerm'th)

  Redmond, William (Clare, E.)

  Devlin, Joseph

  Leach, Charles

  Redmond, William Archer (Tyrone, E.)

  Dewar, Sir J. A.

  Levy, Sir Maurice

  Rendall, Athelstan

  Dickinson, Rt. Hon. Willoughby H.

  Lough, Rt. Hon. Thomas

  Richardson, Albion (Peckham)

  Dillon, John

  Low, Sir Frederick (Norwich)

  Richardson, Thomas (Whitehaven)

  Donelan, Captain A.

  Lundon, Thomas

  Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)

  Doris, William

  Lyell, Charles Henry

  Roberts, George H. (Norwich)

  Duffy, William J.

  Lynch, Arthur Alfred

  Roberts, Sir J. H. (Denbighs)

  Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness)

  Macdonald, J. Ramsay (Leicester)

  Robertson, John M. (Tyneside)

  Duncan, J. Hastings (Yorks, Otley)

  Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk Burghs)

  Robinson, Sidney

  Elverston, Sir Harold

  McGhee, Richard

  Roch, Walter F. (Pembroke)

  Esmonde, Dr. John (Tipperary, N.)

  Maclean, Donald

  Roche, Augustine (Louth)

  Esmonde, Sir Thomas (Wexford, N.)

  Macnamara, Rt. Hon. Dr. T. J.

  Roe, Sir Thomas

  Essex, Sir Richard Walter

  MacNeill, J. G. Swift (Donegal, South)

  Rowlands, James

  Esslemont, George Birnie

  Macpherson, James Ian

  Rowntree, Arnold

  Falconer, James

  MacVeagh, Jeremiah

  Russell, Rt. Hon. Thomas W.

  Farrell, James Patrick

  M'Callum, Sir John M.

  Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland)

  Fenwick, Rt. Hon. Charles

  M'Kean, John

  Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees)

  Ffrench, Peter

  McKenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald

  Scanlan, Thomas

  Field, William

  M'Laren, Hon. H. D. (Leics.)

  Scott, A. MacCallum (Glas., Bridgeton)

  Fiennes, Hon. Eustace Edward

  M'Laren, Hon. F. W. S. (Lincs., Spalding)

  Seely, Rt. Hon. Colonel J. E. B.

  Fitzgibbon, John

  M'Micking, Major Gilbert

  Sheehy, David

  2212

  2213

  Sherwell, Arthur James

  Walton, Sir Joseph

  Williams, John (Glamorgan)

  Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir John Allsebrook

  Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent)

  Williams, Llewelyn (Carmarthen)

  Smith, Albert (Lancs., Clitheroe)

  Ward, W. Dudley (Southampton)

  Williams, Penry (Middlesbrough)

  Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.)

  Wardle, George J.

  Williamson, Sir Archibald

  Snowden, Philip

  Warner, Sir Thomas Courtenay T.

  Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)

  Soames, Arthur Wellesley

  Wason, Rt. Hon. E. (Clackmannan)

  Winfrey, Sir Richard

  Spicer, Rt. Hon. Sir Albert

  Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney)

  Wing, Thomas Edward

  Strauss, Edward A. (Southwark, West)

  Webb, H.

  Wood, Rt. Hon. T. McKinnon (Glasgow)

  Taylor, Thomas (Bolton)

  Wedgwood, Josiah C.

  Yeo, Alfred William

  Tennant, Harold John

  White, J. Dundas (Glasgow, Tradeston)

  Young, Samuel (Cavan, E.)

  Thomas, James Henry

  White, Patrick (Meath, North)

  Young, William (Perthshire, East)

  Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton)

  Whittaker, Rt. Hon. Sir Thomas P.

  Toulmin, Sir George

  Whyte, Alexander F. (Perth)

  Trevelyan, Charles Philips

  Wiles, Thomas

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr.

  Verney, Sir Harry

  Wilkie, Alexander

  Illingworth and Mr. Gulland.

  Walsh, Stephen (Lancs., Ince)

  Williams, Aneurin (Durham, N. W.)

  Question again proposed. Debate resumed.
  Mr. J. H. CAMPBELLrose—[OPPOSITION MEMBERS: "Adjourn, adjourn!" and Interruption last several minutes.]
  Mr. SPEAKER: Hon. Members seem determined not to hear their Leader. I would ask the Leader of the Opposition whether that is with his assent and approval—
  Earl WINTERTON: Do not answer!
  Mr. BONAR LAW: I would not presume to criticise what you consider your duty, Sir, but I know mine, and that is not to answer any such question.
  Mr. SPEAKER: Having invited the right hon. Gentleman to assist me in obtaining order, I have been disappointed in that—[AN HON. MEMBER: "Hurrah!"] —and there is nothing open to me except, under Standing Order 21, to suspend the sitting of the House, which I do until to-morrow.
  House adjourned at Five minutes after Six o'clock, without Question put, pursuant to Standing Order No. 21.