§ (1) So much of the Seventh Schedule of the principal Act as prohibits workmen from receiving within any period of twelve months unemployment benefit for more than fifteen or such other number of weeks as may be prescribed shall have effect as if for the reference to any period of twelve months there were substituted a reference to an insurance year.
§ (2) A workman in respect of whom no contributions have been paid before the passing of this Act shall not be entitled under proviso (a) to the fourth paragraph in the Seventh Schedule of the principal Act to any addition to the number of contributions which he has actually paid.
Mr. TYSON WILSONI beg to move, at the end of the Clause, to add,
"(2) The Seventh Schedule to the principal Act shall be amended to provide for the payment of unemployment benefit from the fourth day of unemployment when the period of unemployment exceeds nine days."
A very large number of working men think it extremely hard that they should have to register six days before they are entitled to benefit on the seventh day. It is particularly hard on labourers, and the worst paid workmen amongst those who have to insure. It may be said this will cost something, but then the Act costs something, and I take it the object is to provide unemployed workmen with sufficient benefit to enable them to exist during the unemployed period. Everybody knows that men earning from 16s. to 20s. per week cannot possibly wait a week for unemployed benefit. Therefore we think they ought to be paid from the fourth day, and with the object of testing the opinion of the House I beg to move—
§ Mr. W. THORNEI beg to second the Amendment.
I have been awfully sorry that, so far as our party is concerned, we are not as strong as the legal Members. If we had been, we would have made the Government take up a different position this afternoon. As a matter of fact, during the whole of 1776 this Debate they have not made a single concession. It has not cost them a thimbleful of salt. I expect them to take up on this Amendment exactly the same position as they have taken up all the afternoon. They will probably say that it will cost a great deal of money, and that they are not in a position to agree to it. A great hardship is inflicted under present circumstances, especially upon the lower paid men. It is all very well for some of us in this House, who have decent salaries, but the ordinary labourer, with 18s. or 20s. a week, has to sign on for six days, and then to sign on for another six days before he is entitled to draw any pay. He is on his beam-ends if he is out of work for a single week. I hope the Government will make some concession in this matter, because it would be a great benefit to a large number of labourers if the unemployment benefit could start as proposed in the Amendment.
Mr. ROBERTSONIt is hardly fair of my hon. Friend to reproach me with not having made concessions to-day. He knows that we made concessions in Committee, and he is further aware from long experience that it is the practice of the Board of Trade to make all possible concessions beforehand.
§ Mr. W. THORNEWhat concessions have you made this afternoon?
Mr. ROBERTSONWe made several concessions. I was saying that the hon. Member knows from experience that it is the practice of the Board of Trade to consult representatives of labour before bringing in any such measure as this, and to make what concessions they can before the Bill is even printed. It is not a case of bringing in a cast-iron Bill without consulting hon. Members below the Gangway. The hon. Member now proposes a radical change—to throw over the principle of the waiting week. That principle was fully discussed on the original Bill, and the House decided to affirm it. The hon. Member will not expect me to offer a mere expression of sympathy with men who feel the pinch the moment they are out of work. He will be good enough to take that for 1777 granted. As regards the cost, I am able in this case to offer him something in the nature of an actuarial estimate. In previous cases we did not give an estimate, because we submitted we could not. But in this case it is estimated that the cost of the Amendment as it stands would be about £110,000 a year.
§ Mr. W. THORNEA flea-bite!
Mr. ROBERTSONI want to remind the House of the general situation. My hon. Friend has more than once said that we are accumulating a huge fund which we shall never be in a position to expend because of our refusal to accept his proposals. I wish that there were any percentage of truth in that forecast. The House at such a time as this should give consideration to the possibility of a very grave period of depression. We stand, indeed, to have a prolonged period of depression, and instead of a continued fund of £3,000,000 a loss of £5,000,000. We stand to face a period in which we may have to pay out every penny that has been saved, and all that will come in in the course of the year. I do not want to figure as an alarmist. I sincerely trust that depression will not come, but that is a reasonable forecast to make. The hon. Member's assumption that there would be no serious drain upon the fund except; through accepting his proposals is an entire mistake. I appeal to the House,
§ while again expressing my sincere sympathy in the case of those for whom the hon. Member speaks, to maintain the principle of the "waiting week."
§ Mr. G. LOCKER-LAMPSONI have an Amendment down on the point. May I therefore ask the hon. Gentleman, if he is not prepared to pay benefit on the fourth day, whether he will take into consideration the payment of benefit from the fourth day after the waiting week has once been completed? That is to say, will he take into consideration the advisability of paying a man from the fourth day if he falls-out of employment again?
Mr. ROBERTSONWe will take it into consideration, but I cannot pretend to promise the hon. Gentleman, as I see no likelihood of our proposing it, to alter the finance of the Act to any extent in the near future.
Mr. TYSON WILSONI am not at all satisfied with this statement on behalf of the Board of Trade, but I do not want to put hon. Members to the trouble of going through the Division Lobby. All we can do is to agitate with a view that the Act shall be amended in the direction we wish. I would ask leave to withdraw my Amendment. [HON. MEMBERS: "No, no!"]
§ Question put, "That those words be-there inserted in the Bill."
§ The House divided: Ayes, 90; Noes, 182.
1779| Division No. 213.] | AYES. | [4.35 p.m. |
| Agg-Gardner, James Tynte | Gastrell, Major W. Houghton | Pratt, J. W. |
| Amery, L. C. M. S. | Gibbs, G. A. | Price, C E. (Edinburgh, Central) |
| Archer-Shee, Major Martin | Goldman, C. S. | Rees, Sir J. D. |
| Baird, John Lawrence | Goldsmith, Frank | Roberts, George H. (Norwich) |
| Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (City, London) | Guinness, Hon. W. E. (Bury S. Edmunds) | Ronaldshay, Earl of |
| Baring, Maj. Hon. Guy V. (Winchester) | Hancock, John George | Sanders, Robert Arthur |
| Barnston, Harry | Hardie, J. Keir | Scott, A. MacCallum (Glas., Bridgeton) |
| Bathurst, Charles (Wilts, Wilton) | Helmsley, Viscount | Smith, Albert (Lancs., Clitheroe) |
| Bentinck, Lord H. Cavendish- | Henderson, Arthur (Durham) | Stewart, Gershom |
| Blair, Reginald | Herbert, Hon. A. (Somerset, S.) | Terrell, Henry (Gloucester) |
| Boscawen, Sir Arthur S. T. Griffith- | Hills, John Waller | Thorne, William (West Ham) |
| Boyton, James | Hoare, Samuel John Gurney | Thynne, Lord Alexander |
| Bull, Sir William James | Hodge, John | Tickler, T. G. |
| Burn, Colonel C. R. | Hope, Major J. A. (Midlothian) | Touche, George Alexander |
| Byles, Sir William Pollard | Houston, Robert Paterson | Tryon, George Clement |
| Chaloner, Colonel R. G. W. | Hume-Williams, William Ellis | Tullibardine, Marquess of |
| Chapple, Dr. William Allen | Jowett, Frederick William | Walton, Sir Joseph |
| Clive, Captain Percy Archer | Kenyon, Barnet | Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent) |
| Clynes, John R. | Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement | Wardle, George J. |
| Cowan, W. H. | Kyffin-Taylor, G. | Watson, Hon. W. |
| Craik, Sir Henry | Lawson, Hon. H. (T. H'mts., Mile End) | White, Major G. D. (Lancs., Southport) |
| Crooks, William | Lloyd, George Butler (Shrewsbury) | Wilkie, Alexander |
| Currie, George W. | Locker-Lampson. G. (Salisbury) | Willoughby, Major Hon. Claud |
| Dalrymple, Viscount | Macdonald, J. Ramsay (Leicester) | Wilson, A. Stanley (Yorks, E. H.) |
| Denlson-Pender, J. C. | Mackinder, Halford J. | Wood, Hon. E. F. L. (Yorks, Ripon) |
| Dickson, Rt. Hon. C Scott | M'Neill, Ronald (Kent, St. Augustine's) | Wood, John (Stalybridge) |
| Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness) | Malcolm, Ian | Yate, Colonel Charles Edward |
| Falle, Bertram Godfray | Morrison-Bell. Capt. E. F. (Ashburton) | Younger, Sir George |
| Fell, Arthur | Newman, John R. P. | |
| Fisher, Rt. Hon. W. Hayes | Newton, Harry Kottingham | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr. |
| Fletcher, John Samuel | O'Neill, Hon. A. E. B. (Antrim, Mid) | Tyson Wilson and Mr. Parker. |
| NOES. | ||
| Abraham, William (Dublin, Harbour) | Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, West) | Norman, Sir Henry |
| Acland, Francis Dyke | Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth) | Nugent, Sir Walter Richard |
| Addison, Dr. Christopher | Havelock-Allan, Sir Henry | Nuttall, Harry |
| Alden, Percy | Hayden, John Patrick | O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) |
| Allen, Rt. Hon. Charles P. (Stroud) | Hayward, Evan | O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.) |
| Armitage, Robert | Hazleton, Richard | O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool) |
| Banbury, Sir Frederick George | Henry, Sir Charles | O'Doherty, Philip |
| Seale, Sir William Phipson | Higham, John Sharp | O'Dowd, John |
| Beauchamp, Sir Edward | Hinds, John | O'Malley, William |
| Boland, John Pius | Hobhouse, Rt. Hon. Charles E. H. | O'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, S.) |
| Booth, Frederick Handel | Holmes, Daniel Turner | O'Shaughnessy, P. J. |
| Boyle, Daniel (Mayo, North) | Howard, Hon. Geoffrey | O'Shee, James John |
| Brady, Patrick Joseph | Hughes, Spencer Leigh | O'Sullivan, Timothy |
| Brunner, John F. L. | Illingworth, Percy H. | Palmer, Godfrey Mark |
| Bryce, J. Annan | Jardine, Sir J. (Roxburgh) | Peto, Basil Edward |
| Buckmaster, Sir Stanley O. | Jones, Edgar (Merthyr Tydvil) | Phillips, John (Longford, S.) |
| Burns, Rt. Hon. John | Jones, J. Towyn (Carmarthen, East) | Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H. |
| Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas | Jones, William (Carnarvonshire) | Primrose, Hon. Neil James |
| Carlile, Sir Edward Hildred | Joyce, Michael | Radford, G. H. |
| Cawley, Sir Frederick (Prestwich) | Kellaway, Frederick George | Raphael, Sir Herbert H. |
| Cawley, Harold T. (Lancs, Heywood) | Kennedy, Vincent Paul | Reddy, Michael |
| Chancellor, Henry George | Kilbride, Denis | Redmond, William Archer (Tyrone, E.) |
| Clancy, John Joseph | King, Joseph | Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln) |
| Clough, William | Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade) | Robertson, Sir G Scott (Bradford) |
| Collins, Sir Stephen (Lambeth) | Lardner, James C. R. | Robertson, John M. (Tyneside) |
| Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. | Lawson, Sir W. (Cumb'rid, Cockerm'th) | Robinson, Sidney |
| Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth) | Leach, Charles | Roch, Walter F. (Pembroke) |
| Cullinan, John | Lewis, Rt. Hon. John Herbert | Roche, Augustine (Louth) |
| Dalziel, Rt. Hon. Sir J. H. (Kirkcaldy) | Lough, Rt. Hon. Thomas | Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter |
| Davies, Timothy (Lincs, Louth) | Low, Sir Frederick (Norwich) | Russell, Rt. Hon. Thomas W. |
| Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.) | Lundon, Thomas | Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland) |
| Davies, M. Vaughan- (Cardiganshire) | Lyell, Charles Henry | Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees) |
| Delany, William | Lynch, Arthur Alfred | Sherwell, Arthur James |
| Dillon, John | Maclean, Donald | Shortt, Edward |
| Donelan, Captain A. | Macnamara, Rt. Hon. Dr. T. J. | Smith, H. B. Lees (Northampton) |
| Duncan, Sir J. Hastings (Yorks, Otley) | MacNeill, J. G. Swift (Donegal, South) | Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.) |
| Edwards, Clement (Glamorgan, E.) | MacVeagh, Jeremiah | Spicer, Rt. Hon. Sir Albert |
| Edwards, Sir Francis (Radnor) | M'Callum, Sir John M. | Strauss, Edward A. (Southwark, West) |
| Edwards, John Hugh (Glamorgan, Mid) | M'Curdy, Charles Albert | Sutherland, John E. |
| Elverston, Sir Harold | McKenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald | Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe) |
| Esmonde, Dr. John (Tipperary, N.) | M'Micking, Major Gilbert | Tennant, Rt. Hon. Harold John |
| Esmonde, Sir Thomas (Wexford, N.) | Markham, Sir Arthur Basil | Thomson, W. Mitchell- (Down, North) |
| Essex, Sir Richard Walter | Marks, Sir George Croydon | Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton) |
| Esslemont, George Birnie | Marshall, Arthur Harold | Trevelyan, Charles Philips |
| Falconer, James | Mason, David M. (Coventry) | Verney, Sir Harry |
| Farrell, James Patrick | Meagher, Michael | Waring, Walter |
| Ffrench, Peter | Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.) | Warner, Sir Thomas Courtenay T. |
| Field, William | Meehan, Patrick J. (Queen's Co., Leix) | White, J. Dundas (Glasgow, Tradeston) |
| Fiennes, Hon Eustace Edward | Molloy, Michael | White, Sir Luke (Yorks, E. R.) |
| Flavin, Michael Joseph | Molteno, Percy Alport | White, Patrick (Meath, North) |
| Ginnell, Laurence | Money, L. G. Chiozza | Whyte, Alexander F. (Perth) |
| Gladstone, W. G. C. | Mooney, John J. | Williams, Aneurin (Durham, N. W.) |
| Greig, Colonel J. W. | Morgan, George Hay | Williams, Llewelyn (Carmarthen) |
| Guest, Hon. Frederick E. (Dorset, E.) | Morrell, Philip | Williams, Penry (Middlesbrough) |
| Gulland, John William | Morison, Hector | Winfrey, Sir Richard |
| Gwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway) | Muldoon, John | Wood, Rt. Hon. T. McKinnon (Glasgow) |
| Hall, Frederick (Dulwich) | Munro, Rt. Hon. Robert | Young, William (Perthshire, East) |
| Hamilton, C. G. C. (Ches., Altrincham) | Murray, Captain Hon. Arthur C. | Yoxall, Sir James Henry |
| Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Lewis (Rossendale) | Needham, Christopher T. | |
| Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose) | Neilson, Francis | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr. |
| Harmsworth, Cecil (Luton, Beds) | Nolan, Joseph | Wedgwood Benn and Mr. Webb. |
| Harmsworth, R. L. (Caithness-shire) |
Resolution agreed to.