§ Motion, made, and Question proposed, "That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding £362, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1914, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Board of Lunacy in Scotland."
§ Sir GEORGE YOUNGERI rise not with the view to moving a reduction of this Vote, but to ask the Secretary for Scotland for some explanation of it. I understand that the first charge of £182 arises out of the passing of the Mental Deficiency Act of last year, under which the right hon. Gentleman was entitled to appoint a new Lunacy Commissioner, and also, I think, some Deputy-Commissioners. I do not know how many Deputy-Commissioners he has appointed, but I understand the Lunacy Commissioner has been appointed. That Act does not come into operation until 15th May this year, and it does not seem to have been particularly necessary to begin the payment of salaries before that date. It may be however that these Commissioners are possibly employed in making rules, which, I fancy, will be rather difficult to construct, for the carrying out of the Mental Deficiency Act. Most of the Acts passed by the present Government require a great many rules to make them intelligible, and this particular case is no exception to the rule. I also understand that in the case of this particular Act there may be an excuse for having appointed these officials at a comparatively early date, because I understand these rules, once made, become statutory until they are reversed or altered by this House. They are not in the same position as the Insurance Act rules, which alter from day to day and from minute to minute, as one can judge from the appalling mass of literature that comes to one by post two or three days in each week, and which I wish to goodness they would stop sending to me, because I never read them. If it be that these rules are in that position, I think the right hon. Gentleman was very wise in appointing the officials 1544 in time and seeing before the Act came into operation that as far as possible they were rules of a kind which would not require, in the course of the near future, at all events, to be altered, and perhaps if that be so he will tell us for what date these appointments have been made, and how this sum of £182 in salaries has been arrived at. Then might I ask the right hon. Gentleman if he could explain the charge of £220 for travelling expenses for the existing staff and new Commissioner. I can hardly believe the new Commissioner is responsible for all of that £220. It is quite impossible that he is doing otherwise than sitting in his office carefully trying to make out what the rules ought to be, and if he is travelling about he is certainly not doing the work he is getting £182 salary for. Therefore I presume most of the £220 has been incurred by the existing staff. That is 20 per cent. above the average, which is a large addition, and as we are getting into the habit now of being charged very heavily by these bureaucrats for travelling expenses, and as I believe in many cases there is a very great amount of unnecessary travelling, perhaps the right hon. Gentleman will give an explanation upon that point.
The SECRETARY for SCOTLAND (Mr. McKinnon Wood)The explanation of the item for salaries is that we found it necessary to appoint two junior clerks and a typist. I do not think it is a piece of extravagance, because neither of the Sub-commissioners have been appointed during this year. Their appointment will date from 1st April. I have only appointed two out of the four Sub-commissioners who were sanctioned by the Act. With regard to the Commissioner himself, the hon. Baronet was, I think, justified in saying it was prudent to appoint him because of the great mass of correspondence which devolved upon the Lunacy Commissioners in connection, with the new Act. It was necessary also to have the extra help for the purpose he mentioned of dealing with the machinery for bringing the new Act into operation.
1545 The £182, therefore, includes nothing for the salaries of any Sub-commissioner, but it includes £40 for the salary of the new Commissioner and the salaries of the three junior officials whom I have mentioned. With regard to travelling expenses, there is a statutory obligation upon the Lunacy Commissioners to visit each asylum twice a year, and this year, in connection with the passing of the Mental Deficiency Bill through this House, it was necessary that one of the Commissioners should be in attendance, and that necessarily added to the travelling expenses which had to be met. The senior medical officer, Dr. John McPherson, was in attendance in London for some time during the progress of the Bill. During this month the new Commissioner will be visiting the asylums, as well as the other Commissioners. That, I think, answers two of the points raised by the hon. Baronet. The third point had reference to the Appropriation-in-Aid. It consists of charges for proceedings before the sheriffs, and these will be greater by £40 than was anticipated.
§ Sir F. BANBURYI beg to move, to reduce Item A (Salaries: £182) by £10.
It may be owing to my stupidity, but I cannot understand what this money is for. Were the appointments made as from 1st April, 1913, or 1st April, 1914?
Mr. McKINNON WOODI think the hon. Baronet will recollect that I said we had not appointed any Sub-commissioner during the present year. The appointment will be made in the next financial year.
§ Sir F. BANBURYWhat were the salaries for?
Mr. McKINNON WOODThey were for the new Commissioner and three junior officials. They were appointed about six weeks ago.
§ Sir F. BANBURYThat, of course, alters the matter. They were appointed six weeks ago.
Mr. McKINNON WOODI wish to correct that. They were appointed about six weeks before 1st April next.
§ Sir F. BANBURYIf the appointments are dated back as from 1st April, 1914, they have only been appointed about four days. There is one week in February and thirty-one days in March included in the period. That is a very different story from what the right hon. Gentleman told us at first. It is just as well that hon. Gentlemen on the Treasury Bench should learn their lesson, so that they should not get up and make a statement one moment, and then have to correct it immediately afterwards. Instead of being £182, the new appointments mean an annual charge of about £1,820. That is a very large sum of money, and it is much more, it seems to me, than it ought to be. There is an item of £220 for travelling expenses under Subhead B. That was for the expenses of the Commissioner, who was present at the Grand Committee when the Bill was under consideration. What was he present for? Was it to tell the Secretary for Scotland what answers he should or should not give? If so, could not the money have been saved if the Secretary for Scotland had known anything about the Bill? £220 is a very large sum to pay for coming from Scotland to London and going back again, even if he included his subsistence during the time he was in London. I suppose that £10 at the outside would cover the travelling, and, therefore, the other £210 must have been spent otherwise.
§ Question put, "That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding £352, be granted for the said Service."
§ The Committee divided: Ayes, 103; Noes, 257.
1549| Division No. 18.] | AYES. | [10.51 p.m. |
| Agg-Gardner, James Tynte | Cassel, Felix | Du Pre, W. Baring |
| Archer-Shee, Major Martin | Cator, John | Eyres-Monsell, Bolton M. |
| Baird, John Lawrence | Cautley, H. S. | Fell, Arthur |
| Baldwin, Stanley | Cave, George | Fetherstonehaugh, Godfrey |
| Barlow, Montague (Salford, South) | Cecil, Lord Hugh (Oxford University) | Gardner, Ernest |
| Barnston, Harry | Cecil, Lord R. (Herts, Hitchin) | Gibbs, G. A. |
| Bathurst, Charles (Wilts, Wilton) | Clay, Captain H. H. Spender | Gilmour, Captain John |
| Beckett, Hon. Gervase | Clive, Captain Percy Archer | Gordon, John (Londonderry, South) |
| Benn, Arthur Shirley (Plymouth) | Cooper, Sir Richard Ashmole | Goulding, Edward Alfred |
| Bonn, Ion Hamilton (Greenwich) | Courthope, George Loyd | Grant, James Augustus |
| Bigland, Alfred | Craig, Ernest (Cheshire, Crewe) | Greene, Walter Raymond |
| Bird, Alfred | Craik, Sir Henry | Gretton, John |
| Bridgeman, William Clive | Crichton-Stuart, Lord Ninian | Hall, Frederick (Dulwich) |
| Burn, Colonel C. R. | Dalrymple, Viscount | Hamilton, C. G. C. (Ches., Altrincham) |
| Butcher, John George | Daiziel, Davison (Brixton) | Harris, Henry Percy |
| Carlile, Sir Edward Hildred | Denniss, E. R. B. | Henderson, Major H. (Berks, Abingdon) |
| Carr-Gomm, H. W. | Dickson, Rt. Hon. C. Scott | Henderson, Sir A. (St. Geo., Han. Sq.) |
| Hewins, William Albert Samuel | Orde-Powlett, Hon. W. G. A. | Stewart, Gershom |
| Mills, John Waller | Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William | Strauss, Arthur (Paddington, North) |
| Hohler, Gerald Fitzroy | Paget, Almeric Hugh | Sykes, Sir Mark (Hull, Central) |
| Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield) | Parker, Sir Gilbert (Gravesend) | Talbot, Lord Edmund |
| Horner, Andrew Long | Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington) | Touche, George Alexander |
| Houston, Robert Paterson | Perkins, Walter Frank | Valentia, Viscount |
| Hunter, Sir C. R. | Peto, Basil Edward | Walker, Colonel William Hall |
| Ingleby, Holcombe | Pollock, Ernest Murray | Watson, Hon. W. |
| Lloyd, George Butler (Shrewsbury) | Randles, Sir John S. | Wheler, Granville C. H. |
| locker-Lampion, G. (Salisbury) | Rawson, Colonel R. H. | White, Major G. D. (Lanes., Southport) |
| Locker-Lampson, O. (Ramsey) | Rees, Sir J. D. | Willoughby, Major Hon. Claud |
| Macmaster, Donald | Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall) | Wilson, Captain Leslie 0. (Reading) |
| Magnus, Sir Philip | Rutherford, Watson (L'pool, W. Derby) | Wilson, Maj. Sir M. (Bethnal Green S W) |
| Morrison-Bell, Capt. E. F. (Ashburton) | Salter, Arthur Clavell | Worthington-Evans, L. |
| Morrison-Bell, Major A. C. (Honiton) | Samuel, Samuel (Wandsworth) | Yate, Colonel Charles Edward |
| Mount, William Arthur | Sanders, Robert Arthur | |
| Newman, John R. P. | Sanderson, Lancelot | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Sir |
| Nield, Herbert | Stanley, Hon. G. F. (Preston) | F. Banbury and Major Gastrell, |
| O'Neill, Hon. A. E. B. (Antrim, Mid) | ||
| NOES. | ||
| Abraham, William (Dublin, Harbour) | Essex, Sir Richard Walter | Levy, Sir Maurice |
| Acland, Francis Dyke | Falconer, James | Lewis, Rt. Hon. John Herbert |
| Agar-Robartes, Hon. T. C. R. | Farrell, James Patrick | Lundon, Thomas |
| Agnew, Sir George | Fenwick, Rt. Hon. Charles | Lyell, Charles Henry |
| Ainsworth, John Stirling | Ferens, Rt. Hon. Thomas Robinson | Lynch, Arthur Alfred |
| Aiden, Percy | Ffrench, Peter | Macdonald, J. Ramsay (Leicester) |
| Allen, Arthur A. (Dumbartonshire) | Field, William | Macnamara, Rt. Hon. Dr. T. J. |
| Allen, Rt. Hon. Charles P. (Stroud) | Flennes, Hon. Eustace Edward | Macpherson, James Ian |
| Arnold, Sydney | Fitzgibbon, John | MacVeagh, Jeremiah |
| Asquith, Rt. Hon. Herbert Henry | Flavin, M'chael Joseph | McKenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald |
| Baker, Harold T. (Accrington) | France, Gerald Ashburner | M'Laren, Hon. H. D. (Leics.) |
| Baker, Joseph Allen (Finsbury, E.) | Furness, Sir Stephen Wilson | M'Laren, Hon. F.W.S. (Lincs., Spalding) |
| Baring, Sir Godfrey (Barnstaple) | Gelder, Sir W. A. | M'Micking, Major Gilbert |
| Barnes, George N. | Gill, A. H. | Marks, Sir George Croydon |
| Seale, Sir William Phipson | Gladstone, W. G. C. | Meagher, Michael |
| Beauchamp, Sir Edward | Glanville, Harold James | Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.) |
| Beck, Arthur Cecil | Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford | Mcehan. Patrick J. (Queen's Co., Leix) |
| -Benn, W. W. (T. Hamlets, St. George) | Greenwood, Hamar (Sunderland) | Molloy, Michael |
| Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine | Griffith, Ellis Jones | Molteno, Percy Alport |
| .Black, Arthur W. | Guest, Hon. Frederick E. (Dorset, E.) | Mond, Rt. Hon. Sir Alfred |
| Boland, John Pius | Gulland, John William | Money, L. G. Chiozza |
| Booth, Frederick Handel | Gwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway) | Montagu, Hon. E. S. |
| Bowerman, Charles W. | Hackett, John | Mooney, John J. |
| Boyle, Daniel (Mayo, North) | Hancock, John George | Morgan, George Hay |
| Brace, William | Harcourt, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Rossendale) | Morrell, Philip |
| Brady, Patrick Joseph | Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose) | Morison, Hector |
| Brocklehurst, W. B. | Hardie, J. Keir | Morton, Alpheus Cleophas |
| Brunner, John F. L. | Harmsworth, Cecil (Luton, Beds) | Muldoon, John |
| Bryce, J. Annan | Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, West) | Munro, Rt. Hon. Robert |
| Buckmaster, Sir Stanley 0. | Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N.E.) | Nannetti, Joseph P. |
| Burke, E. Haviland- | Havelock-Allan, Sir Henry | Nicholson, Sir Charles N. (Doncaster) |
| Burns, Rt. Hon. John | Hayden, John Patrick | Nolan, Joseph |
| Byles, Sir William Pollard | Hayward, Evan | Norman, Sir Henry |
| Cawley, Sir Frederick (Prestwich) | Hazleton, Richard | Nugent, Sir Walter Richard |
| Cawley, Harold T. (Lanes., Heywood) | Hemmerde, Edward George | O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) |
| Chapple, Dr. William Allen | Henderson, Arthur (Durham) | O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.) |
| Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston S. | Henderson, J. M. (Aberdeen, W.) | O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool) |
| Clancy, John Joseph | Higham, John Sharp | O'Doherty, Philip |
| Clough, William | Hinds, John | O'Donnell, Thomas |
| Collins, Sir Stephen (Lambeth) | Hobhouse, Rt. Hon. Charles E. H. | O'Dowd, John |
| Compton-Rickett, Rt. Hon. Sir J. | Hodge, John | O'Kelly, Edward P. (Wicklow, W.) |
| Condon, Thomas Joseph | Holmes, Daniel Turner | O'Malley, William |
| Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. | Holt, Richard Durning | O'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, S.) |
| Cotton, William Francis | Hope, John Deans (Haddington) | O'Shaughnessy, P. J. |
| Cowan, W. H. | Hudson, Walter | O'Shee, James John |
| Crooks, William | Hughes, Spencer Leigh | O'Sullivan, Timothy |
| Crumley, Patrick | Illingworth, Percy H. | Palmer, Godfrey Mark |
| Cullinan, John | Johnson, W. | Parker, James (Halifax) |
| Davies, Ellis William (Eifion) | Jones, Edgar R. (Merthyr Tydvil) | Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek) |
| Davies, Timothy (Lincs., Louth) | Jones, j. Towyn (Carmarthen, East) | Pearce, William (Limehouse) |
| Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.) | Jones, William S. Glyn- (Stepney) | Pease, Rt. Hon. Joseph A. (Rotherham) |
| Dawes, James Arthur | Joyce, Michael | Philipps, Colonel Ivor (Southampton) |
| Delany, William | Keating, Matthew | Phillips, John (Longford, S) |
| Denman, Hon. Richard Douglas | Keilaway, Frederick George | Pirie, Duncan V. |
| Devlin, Joseph | Kelly, Edward | Pointer, Joseph |
| Dillon, John | Kennedy, Vincent Paul | Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H. |
| Donelan, Captain A. | Kenyon, Barnet | Pratt, J. W. |
| Doris, William | Kilbride, Denis | Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central) |
| Duffy, William J. | Lambert, Rt. Hon. G. (Devon, S. Molton) | Price, Sir Robert J. (Norfolk, E.) |
| Duncan, J. Hastings (Yorks, Otley) | Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade) | Primrose, Hon. Neil James |
| Edwards, Clement (Glamorgan, E.) | Lardner, James C. R. | Radford, G. H. |
| Edwards, John Hugh (Glamorgan, Mid) | Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, West) | Rattan. Peter Wilson |
| Esmonde, Sir Thomas (Wexford, N.) | Lawson, Sir W. (Cumb'rid, Cockerm'th) | Rea, Walter Russell (Scarborough) |
| Reddy, Michael | Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir John Allsebrook | Webb, H. |
| Redmond, John E. (Waterford) | Smith, Albert (Lanes., Clattered) | White, J. Dundas (Glasgow, Tradeston) |
| Redmond, William Archer (Tyrone, E.) | Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.) | White, Sir Luke (Yorks, E.R.) |
| Randall, Athelstan | Stanley, Albert (Staffs, N.W.) | White, Patrick (Heath, North) |
| Richardson, Albion (Peckham) | Strauss, Edward A. (Southwark, West) | Whyte, Alexander F. (Perth) |
| Richardson, Thomas (Whitehaven) | Sutton, John E. | Wiles, Thomas |
| Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln) | Swann, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles E. | Wilkie, Alexander |
| Roberts, Sir J. H. (Denbighs) | Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe) | Williams, Aneurin (Durham, N.W.) |
| 'Robertson, John M. (Tyneside) | Taylor, Thomas (Bolton) | Williams, John (Glamorgan) |
| Robinson, Sidney | Tennant, Harold John | Williams, Llewelyn (Carmarthen) |
| Roche, Walter F. (Pembroke) | Thomas, J. H. | Williams, Penry (Middlesbrough) |
| Roche, Augustine (Louth) | Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton) | Wilson, John (Durham, Mid) |
| Roe, Sir Thomas | Thorne, William (West Ham) | Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton) |
| Rowlands, James | Trevelyan. Charles Philips | Winfrey, Sir Richard |
| Rowntree, Arnold | Verney, Sir Harry | Wing, Thomas Edward |
| Russell, Rt. Hon. Thomas W. | Walters, Sir John Tudor | Wood, Rt. Hon. T. McKinnon (Glasgow) |
| Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland) | Walton, Sir Joseph | Yeo, A. W. |
| Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees) | Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent) | Young, William (Perthshire, East) |
| Scanian, Thomas | Wardle, George J. | Younger, Sir George |
| Scott, A. MacCallum (Glas., Bridgeton) | Waring, Walter | Yoxall, Sir James Henry |
| Seely, Rt. Hon. Colonel J. E. B. | Warner, Sir Thomas Courtenay T. | |
| Sheehy, David | Wason, Rt. Hon. E. (Clackmannan) | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr. |
| Sherwell, Arthur James | Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney) | Wm. Jones and Mr. Geoffrey Howard. |
| Shortt, Edward | Watt, Henry A. |
Original Question put and agreed to.
§ It being after Eleven of the clock, the Chairman left the Chair to make his report to the House.
§ Committee report Progress; to sit again to-morrow (Tuesday).