§ Motion made, and Question proposed, "That a supplementary sum, not exceeding £903, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1914, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Registry of Friendly Societies."
§ Mr. POLLOCKI do not know whether on this Vote it would be in order to discuss a very important matter concerning friendly societies, namely, the contemplated use of a regulation under which friendly societies will no longer be able to choose their place of meeting in regard to the administration of the Insurance Act, and will be prohibited from meeting on licensed premises. That regulation has raised a discussion among friendly societies, who consider that their liberties are being infringed. Now we are being asked to find £90 for incidental expenses, and no details are given of this expenditure. I dare say it would not be in order to discuss this matter on Votes A, but I submit that we ought to be able to raise the point upon these incidental expenses. Therefore, I desire to have your ruling at the earliest possible moment on this question, which is of deep and serious importance to the friendly societies throughout the whole of the country.
§ Mr. MONTAGUI should like, on the point of Order, to submit to you that this is purely a Vote for the expenses and wages of the Registry of Friendly Societies, and the rule to which the hon. Member referred is a rule passed by the Insurance Commissioners, with whom this Vote has absolutely nothing to do.
§ The DEPUTY - CHAIRMAN (Mr. Maclean)The point raised by the hon. Member is a general one, and I do not think that it can be discussed on this Supplementary Estimate, which he will observe is strictly confined to the Friendly Societies Registry.
§ Mr. POLLOCKAs you have yourself said from the Chair that the matter is one of deep and wide importance, I beg to give notice that I will raise the question on the Motion for the Adjournment of the House to-night.
§ Mr. G. LOCKER-LAMPSONI should like to ask a question about the recent action taken by the Registrar of Friendly Societies, and I hope that I shall be in order in doing so. I see that the Registrar asks for an additional £903, and I think I am right in saying that money is required for the service of about thirty additional clerks in the office, who are looking over schemes which are being prepared under Clause 72 of the National Insurance Act. By Clause 72 of the National Insurance Act every friendly society is required to submit to the Chief Registrar schemes for continuing, abolishing, reducing, or altering the benefits of members who become insured persons. The important aspect of these schemes is this. The schemes are supposed to be framed so that the combined effect of the alteration shall not prejudicially affect the solvency of the friendly societies. It is the business of the Registrar to see that the schemes are so framed that the solvency is not prejudicially affected. Hon Members will also remember that Clause 11 of the National Insurance Act provides that no sickness or disablement benefit shall be paid to any person in respect of any injury or disease where the sum paid by way of compensation is equal to the benefit which would otherwise be paid. Information has appeared in the public Press to the effect that the Registrar is acting in this manner, and I want to get an assurance from the right hon. Gentleman that he has his eye on the Registrar in regard to what he is alleged to be doing at the present time. From what one sees in the public Press, the Chief Registrar is now insisting that in the schemes sanctioned under Clause 72 of the National Insurance Act friendly societies, in the case of persons who after the passing of the Act have reduced their contributions on the non-State side, shall nevertheless pay to them full sickness benefit in cases of accidents in occupation.
1511 I need hardly say that I do not raise this question in order to try and make out that insured persons ought to be docked of their benefits, but if societies have got to pay the same benefit although the contributions have been reduced, it certainly is the business of the State to see that the solvency of the society is not thereby in any way prejudiced or affected. Before the passing of the Act friendly societies paid sickness benefit in full quite independently of payments under the Workmen's Compensation Act. Therefore, an insured person was drawing the full payments under the Workmen's Compensation Act and the full benefits of the society. The Registrar is now requiring the society still to go on paying the full benefits as before the passing of the Act, at the same time that the insured persons are getting full compensation under the Workmen's Compensation Act, although those persons may have reduced their contributions on the non-State side by as much as 4d. per week. I think it is very unfair to the societies, who, from many other points of view, are expecting and very much dreading deficiencies at the first valuation, that the Registrar should enforce them to pay the full benefits, which certainly, to my mind, will inevitably entail deficiencies in the future. I want to find out from the right hon. Gentleman whether the Registrar is statutorily entitled to issue that instruction to the voluntary side of the Approved Societies. I do not believe that there is anything in the Act which entitles the Registrar to make an order of that sort to any Approved Society on their voluntary side.
§ The DEPUTY-CHAIRMANI have allowed the hon. Member to develop his point so that I might clearly understand him. He has now put it quite clearly, and it seems to me to be outside this Supplementary Estimate. It seems, as the hon. Member has developed it, to be a point which would come properly on the original Estimate and not on this Supplementary Estimate, which is simply for the purpose of meeting the cost of the additional staff. I think the hon. Member must see that if I allowed this discussion there would be no point in the National Insurance Act in regard to which the principal officer is the Registrar of Friendly Societies which could not be raised. I regret that under the rules under which Supplementary Estimates 1512 are discussed, I cannot allow the matter to be debated.
§ Mr. G. LOCKER-LAMPSONI submit to your ruling, but I do not know whether I have made it quite clear that this additional money is for the payment of additional official expenses in the Registrar's office. I believe that no less than thirty additional clerks have been appointed with the sole object and purpose of reviewing the schemes framed under Section 72 of the Act, and it is in connection with those schemes and the way in which the Registrar is reviewing them and issuing instructions with regard to them that I want to move to reduce the Vote. It is the action of the Registrar in regard to these schemes—
§ The DEPUTY-CHAIRMANI am obliged to the hon. Member for putting the point of order to me so clearly, but it is quite definite in my mind that he is raising a question of policy, which, I am sorry to say, I cannot allow on this Supplementary Estimate.
§ Mr. POLLOCKSurely the Chairman cannot say, until we have had an answer from the hon. Gentleman in charge of this Vote, whether or not some portion of the salaries and wages it refers to is not required for the purpose which my hon. Friend brings before the Committee. If the money is wanted for that purpose, we ought to have the option of deciding whether or not we will pay the persons employed on the work. We do not desire to raise the question of the whole policy on that particular Vote, but we desire to discuss whether these particular salaries shall be allowed, and surely we are entitled to inquire for what purpose the expense has been incurred. We ought also to be entitled to criticise any appointments which have been made. I again suggest that the hon. Gentleman in charge of the Vote should first be allowed to explain it more fully.
§ Mr. THOMASIs it not true that the only power which the Registrar has in this matter is under Section 72 of the National Insurance Act, namely, the one dealing with compensation alone, and he cannot interfere with any other benefit? Therefore, is it not a question with regard to the Commissioners, and not to the Registrar?
§ Mr. CASSELSection 72 of the Insurance Act devolves the duty of framing schemes on the Registrar, and Subsection (b) of that Section provides 1513 that any scheme adopted by a society or branch of a society in accordance with its rules, when confirmed by the Registrar of Friendly Societies, shall be deemed to be incorporated in all registered rules of the society. Is it not the case that this is a matter which falls to be dealt with not by the Insurance Commissioners, but simply and solely by the Registrar of Friendly Societies? Is it also not the case that the scheme may deal not merely with the question of Workmen's Compensation, but may have relation to any benefit whatever? My hon. Friend is raising the point that this expenditure is in connection with the employment of clerks, who have this very work of revising the schemes to do, and, before we pay the money to be devoted to that purpose, we want to raise the point whether the Registrar of Friendly Societies is acting legally within the law. The submission of my hon. Friend, as I understand it, is that the Registrar of Friendly Societies has no power at all of dealing with schemes in this way, and so long as the scheme is a solvent and proper scheme he cannot lay down general rules which fetter the action of the society. I raise this point of Order without committing myself on the question whether the contention of my hon. Friend is right or wrong. I submit we are entitled to discuss the question whether the expenditure ought to be incurred on an action which we consider to be illegal.
§ The CHAIRMANI am obliged to hon. Members for the assistance they have sought to render me, but it does not alter my opinion as to the correctness of my ruling. It is quite in order to discuss whether an official staff is required, but I repeat that that is a question of policy and outside the scope of this particular discussion.
Mr. HOPEI beg to move to reduce Item A (Salaries, Wages, and Allowances: England and General) by the sum of £50. If there be any error—and according to your ruling, there is one—I submit it is due entirely to the manner in which the Estimate is presented. We are asked to Vote £813, and the only explanation is that it is a further sum for additional staff. We want to know why this further sum is required. My hon. Friend assumes that it is in connection with the schemes referred to. We know that the schemes have been prepared and a consideration of them has been necessary. We know that further sums are required for the Regis- 1514 trar's Department. My hon. Friend assumes that it is because of these schemes, and he claims the right to discuss the Vote in consequence. Of course I do not dispute the ruling of the Chair, but I do dispute the propriety of the Treasury coming down here and asking for an additional sum without a word of explanation for the purposes for which the money is required. Why, I would ask, is this additional staff needed? Why is further money requisite? I turn to other items and I find they are accompanied with explanatory notes. On the item we have just been discussing there is an explanatory note with regard to a new staircase to the terrace. In the next Vote we are to deal with there is a note about small holdings, and so on. If we go through the various items we get explanations, but there is no note explaining this particular Estimate, and we are completely in the dark as to the purposes for which the money is required. I think the Secretary to the Treasury should have made some preliminary explanation in the absence of such a note, and as a protest against the concealment practised by the hon. Gentleman, I beg to move the reduction of the item by £50.
§ Mr. MONTAGUThe hon. Member has compared the way in which this Estimate is presented with the way in which the Estimate for the Department of Agriculture in Ireland was presented, to the prejudice of this Estimate. But if he will turn to the next page, he will find a lengthy explanation given of that Vote, and it is simple to deduce therefore that this Vote really demanded no explanation, because of its simplicity. It is merely a matter of providing money to meet the cost of additional staff. The Treasury consented to a complete reorganisation of the office in view of recent legislation—the Trades Union No. 2 Act and the Insurance Act—under which societies who alter their rules have to approach the Registrar for approval of them. There is nothing in this Supplementary Estimate which is going to entitle the Registrar of Friendly Societies to undertake any new duty; it is simply the result of a miscalculation of the cost of the reorganisation of the office. It is also the result of changes recommended by a Departmental Committee which sat to consider the way in which the duties of the Registrar of Friendly Societies were being performed.
§ Sir F. BANBURYWhen did the Committee sit?
§ Mr. MONTAGUIt reported last December. A considerable portion of the amount is due, not for the payment of new staff, but for the payment of overtime necessitated by temporary work due to the facts I have just mentioned.
§ Sir F. BANBURYI am afraid the explanation of the hon. Gentleman has made the matter worse, because, as I understand it, he says that the increase is not due to new duties cast upon the staff, but merely to a reorganisation owing to the Trades Union (No. 2) Act and to the Insurance Act.
§ Mr. MONTAGUTo a general increased activity of the Department.
§ Sir F. BANBURYNow we have a third explanation. If the staff are more active, you do not want to add to their number. On the contrary, if you have a very active staff, you reduce their number. I am afraid the last explanation differs from the preceding explanation, which was that the increase was due to matters in connection with the Insurance Act and the Trades Union (No. 2) Act. I am afraid I do not know when the Trades Union (No. 2) Act was passed, but so far as I remember, the Insurance Act came into operation more than a year ago, and therefore the Treasury ought to have foreseen the duties which would have been put upon the Friendly Societies' Registry Office by the passing of that Act. We on this side of the House complain of the lack of properly estimating expenditure. When I sat on that side of the House I listened for hours to hon. Gentlemen opposite complaining that the estimate of expenditure was inaccurate. I remember they always said that if they were in power we should see no Supplementary Estimates, because the business of the country would be carried on in a businesslike manner. Since I have been on this side of the House I have longed for that welcome period, but it has never come, and on every possible occasion the Government are putting forward Supplementary Estimates, and very bad explanations of them.
I am perfectly willing not to be too hard on the hon. Gentleman, who has only just been appointed to his office and may not be up in all the little manœuvres which are necessary to carry the Financial Secretary to the Treasury through a Debate on Supply, and especially upon Supplementary Estimates. I have no particular objection to voting another £813 if it is necessary. I see the President of the 1516 Board of Trade is present. He is very insistent upon good management in his office, and I would ask him whether, if he sat on this side of the Committee, he would be justified in voting for an increase in the staff because the members of the staff had been more active? I can see the right hon. Gentleman getting up and pluming himself on the way in which he had conducted his office. He would say, "I am prepared to pay good salaries, but I will have work done for them. I have started such a spirit of activity in my Department that I am able to say I have been able to reduce the Estimate." Is this increase due to an increase in number or an increase in the salary of the existing members of the staff?
§ Mr. MONTAGUThere is a certain increase in staff, but the larger amount is for overtime payments to the existing staff.
§ 9.0 P.M.
§ Sir F. BANBURYCan the hon. Gentleman tell me how much is due to the increase in staff and how much to overtime? That would make a considerable difference. I advise the hon. Gentleman not to place too much reliance on the gentlemen under the Gallery, because they do not always give the correct answer to the question. Am I to understand we are to have no answer?
§ Mr. MONTAGUI could not answer while the hon. Baronet was detaining the Committee with his interesting speech. I am afraid I cannot give him the information for which he asks. I did not say that the members of the staff had been more active, and that for that reason we were increasing their number. What I did say was that the Department had become more active, and that recent legislation had necessitated greater activity. We wanted, as I am sure the hon. Member himself would wish, to bring the whole Department into a condition of greater efficiency, and we had to do a certain amount of reorganisation work, and to increase, to a certain extent, the number of the staff. I am sorry to tell the hon. Member that I have not the details of the apportionment of this sum between overtime, temporary assistance, and so on. He was good enough to extend to me a certain amount of consideration owing to the fact that I have only recently been appointed to my office. I can assure him that this Estimate 1517 has been carefully scrutinised, and I will endeavour to obtain for him, if he will put a question to me, the apportionment he desires us to make.
§ Sir F. BANBURYI am much obliged to the hon. Member. I have no desire whatever to attribute to him any want of courtesy, for he has always been most courteous in all his dealings with the House of Commons. I am afraid I cannot accept his suggestion. He says, "Vote the money, and I will give you the explanation some time afterwards." That is not business. You get your explanation before you vote your money. The real answer to the hon. Gentleman would be to move to report Progress until the hon. Gentleman does know what is represented by the amount he desires the Committee to vote, but in view of the fact that he has only just taken the office, I do not propose myself to do that, although I do not know what my hon. Friends behind me may do. They may think I am too good-natured, and too willing to let matters go through quickly.
§ Sir F. BANBURYI am inclined to be content with supporting the reduction moved by my hon. Friend.
§ Mr. HODGEMay I, as one who from time to time feels it necessary to call upon the Registrar, say that not only secretaries of trade unions, but secretaries of friendly societies, will hail with satisfaction the increase of the staff. When you submit to the Registrar an amendment of rules it has been my experience that that office has been so much under-staffed that you are kept waiting for months before you can get your rules approved by the Registrar. I trust, as a result of the reorganisation of the office that when we have occasion to go before the Registrar with any amendments of rules we shall get them much more speedily approved than has been the case in the past. It is very bad for the regular work of a society to find that new rules have been passed by the members and they cannot be put into operation until such times as the Registrar can approve them.
§ Mr. POLLOCKThe observation made by the last speaker may possibly go to this extent, that a very much larger increase in staff may be necessary. I can well understand the inconvenience of not being able to get rules approved with considerable rapidity. There ought not to be great 1518 delay in the Registrar's office, and it must be very inconvenient to all societies to have to wait, because members want to come in or go out, and you do not know what set of rules are applicable to the particular society during the ebb and flow and flux which must take place even during the course of a very few weeks. If the sum asked was a great deal larger possibly the House ought to agree to it, have to wait, because members want to understand is what we are voting for. The Financial Secretary referred to the fact that there had been a good many alterations of rules. What we have been asking is, how there have been alterations of rules under Section 72 Sub-section (3), and if there have been we want to know whether the purpose of that alteration includes a direction that certain benefits shall be paid. Here we have the explicit statement of the hon. Gentleman that a further staff is required because of the alteration of rules. I call attention to this Sub-section, and it occurs to me that if the question can be answered we might be placed a little further forward, because this information will be given, which is the basis of the argument that my hon. Friend desires to place before the Committee. If he says he does not know, I shall respect him very much for being one of the first Ministers who has had the courage to stand up and say, "I do not know," and I shall accept his answer, but if he gets some answer which is based on imperfect and perhaps inaccurate knowledge and pretends to know when he does not, the high position I shall always accord him will possibly be endangered.
§ Mr. MONTAGUThe facts are these. Under the Insurance Act, and particularly under Section 72, certain new duties were laid upon the Registrar-General of Friendly Societies. In order to cope with those duties and other new duties placed upon him by other Acts, he suggested to the Treasury a reorganisation of his Department. For that reorganisation and for the expenses of the Department generally the House approved last year an original Estimate. That Estimate has proved insufficient, and it is to supplement it that I am asking the House to vote this sum of money.
§ Mr. GODFREY LOCKER-LAMPSONAs the question of this alteration of Regulations has been dealt with by the hon. Gentleman, surely one is in order now in discussing the subject which he himself 1519 has raised. I asked whether he could give any information whether this alteration of the Regulations does include permission to the Registrar to issue instructions that the societies in future shall pay the same benefits as they did before the Act.
§ The DEPUTY-CHAIRMANI do not think the way in which the Secretary to the Treasury answered in any way opened up the point which I previously ruled out of order.
Mr. HOPEThe Secretary to the Treasury, I submit, said that part of this increase, and a very large part, is due to the duties cast upon the Registrar under Section 72 of the National Insurance Act. That being admitted, may I ask is it not in order to inquire why this increase is necessary?
§ The DEPUTY-CHAIRMANThe reply given by the Secretary to the Treasury simply stated the fact. Hon. Members desire to open a question of policy which I have ruled out once or twice, and I must adhere to it.
§ Sir F. BANBURYI am obliged to the hon. Member (Mr. Hodge) for the statement he has made, because he says he is very glad that this increase is going to take place, because for some time he has found in the course of his duties, which take him to the office of the Registrar, that he has been unable to get that attention which he deserves. That is the whole point. All this ought to have been found out a year ago. It ought to have been in the original Estimate. It is no use saying, "We did not know that the blockage occurred to which the hon. Member refers,
§ and now, at the last moment, we are going to do something." Why was it not done before
§ Mr. HODGEThe Trade Union (No. 2) Act only came into force on 1st July, and a great deal of work in consequence was thrown on the Registrar's office.
§ Sir F. BANBURYI understand that Act was only one of the causes of this increase. If the hon. Member had said it was the sole cause, that would have been another thing. I did not understand from the right hon. Gentleman that the Trade Union (No. 2) Act was the cause of the delay, and that it was only since last July that he had found it was impossible to get that attention.
§ Sir F. BANBURYThat shows I am absolutely right, and that the hon. Member found all these difficulties, not only after 1st July, but before, because the common interpretation of English being as it is, "Not only" does not mean only after 1st July, but before as well. The Independent Labour Party should take their courage in their hands, as a protest against the delay which they say has so injured the people who have returned them to Parliament. Hon. Members below the Gangway will not hurt the Government by going to a Division. I would thank them for once for showing that they are independent in reality as well as in name.
§ Question put, "That Item A (Salaries, Wages, and Allowances: England and General) be reduced by £50."
§ The Committee divided: Ayes 68; Noes 229.
1521| Division No. 13.] | AYES. | [9.15 p.m. |
| Agg-Gardner, James Tynte | Gilmour, Captain John | Perkins, Walter F. |
| Archer-Shee, Major Martin | Goldman, C. S. | Pollock, Ernest Murray |
| Baldwin, Stanley | Gordon, John (Londonderry, South) | Randles, Sir John S. |
| Barnston, Harry | Greene, W. R. | Rees, Sir J. D. |
| Bathurst, Charles (Wilts, Wilton) | Harris, Henry Percy | Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall) |
| Bigland, Alfred | Henderson, Major H. (Berks.,Abingdon) | Rutherford, Watson (L'pool, W. Derby) |
| Bird, Alfred | Hewins, William Albert Samuel | Sanders, Robert Arthur |
| Bridgeman, William Clive | Hills, John Waller | Sanderson, Lancelot |
| Burn, Colonel C. R. | Hohler, Gerald Fitzroy | Sandys, G. J. |
| Campion, W. R. | Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield) | Stanley, Hon. G. F. (Preston) |
| Carlile, Sir Edward Hildred | Horner, Andrew Long | Stewart, Gershom |
| Cassel, Felix | Houston, Robert Paterson | Strauss, Arthur (Paddington, North) |
| Cautley, Henry Strother | Ingleby, Holcombe | Talbot, Lord Edmund |
| Cecil, Lord Ft. (Herts, Hitchin) | Locker-Lampson, G. (Salisbury) | Touche, George Alexander |
| Clive, Captain Percy Archer | Lscker-Lampson, O. (Ramsey) | Valentia, Viscount |
| Cooper, Sir Richard Ashmole | Macmaster, Donald | Walker, Colonel William Hall |
| Courthope, George Loyd | Magnus, Sir Philip | Wheler, Granville C. H. |
| Dalziel, Davison (Brixton) | Middlemore, John Throgmorton | Willoughby, Major Hon. Claud |
| Denniss, E. R. B. | Mount, William Arthur | Wilson, Captain Leslie O. (Reading) |
| Du Pre, W. Baring | Newman, John R. P. | Yate, Colonel Charles Edward |
| Eyres-Monsell, Bolton M. | Nield, Herbert | |
| Fell, Arthur | O'Neill, Hon. A. E. B. (Antrim, Mid) | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Sir |
| Fetherstonhaugh, Godfrey | Paget, Almeric Hugh | F. Banbury and Mr. Hamilton. |
| Gardner, Ernest | Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington) | |
| NOES. | ||
| Abraham, William (Dublin, Harbour) | Havelock-Allan, Sir Henry | Parker, James (Halifax) |
| Acland, Francis Dyke | Hayden, John Patrick | Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek) |
| Addison, Dr. Christopher | Hayward, Evan | Pearce, William (Limehouse) |
| Agnew, Sir George William | Hazleton, Richard | Phillips, John (Longford, S.) |
| Ainsworth, John Stirling | Hemmerde, Edward George | Pirie, Duncan V. |
| Alden, Percy | Henderson, Arthur (Durham) | Pointer, Joseph |
| Allen, Rt. Hon. Charles P. (Stroud) | Henderson, J. M. (Aberdeen, W.) | Pratt, J. W. |
| Baker, Joseph Allen (Finsbury, E.) | Higham, John Sharp | Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central) |
| Baring, Sir Godfrey (Barnstaple) | Hinds, John | Price, Sir Robert J. (Norfolk, E.) |
| Barnes, George N. | Hobhouse, Rt. Hon. Charles E. H. | Primrose, Hon. Neil James |
| Beauchamp, Sir Edward | Hodge, John | Radford, G. H. |
| Benn, W. W. (T. Hamlets, St. George) | Holmes, Daniel Turner | Raffan, Peter Wilson |
| Black, Arthur W. | Holt, Richard Durning | Rea, Walter Russell (Scarborough) |
| Boland, John Pius | Hope, John Deans (Haddington) | Reddy, Michael |
| Booth, Frederick Handel | Hudson, Walter | Redmond, John E. (Waterford) |
| Bowerman, Charles W. | Hughes, Spencer Leigh | Rendall, Athelstan |
| Boyle, Daniel (Mayo, North) | Illingworth, Percy H. | Richardson, Albion (Peckham) |
| Brace, William | Johnson, W. | Richardson, Thomas (Whitehaven) |
| Brady, Patrick Joseph | Jones, Edgar (Merthyr Tydvil) | Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln) |
| Brocklehurst, W. B. | Jones, J. Towyn (Carmarthen, East) | Roberts, Sir J. H. (Denbighs) |
| Brunner, John F. L. | Jones, William S. Glyn- (Stepney) | Robertson, John M, (Tyneside) |
| Bryce, J. Annan | Jowett, Frederick William | Robinson, Sidney |
| Buckmaster, Sir Stanley O. | Joyce, Michael | Roche, Augustine (Louth) |
| Burke, E. Haviland- | Keating, Matthew | Roe, Sir Thomas |
| Burns, Rt. Hon. John | Kellaway, Frederick George | Rowlands, James |
| Byles, Sir William Pollard | Kelly, Edward | Rowntree, Arnold |
| Carr-Gomm, H. W. | Kennedy, Vincent Paul | Russell, Rt. Hon. Thomas W. |
| Cawley, Sir Frederick (Prestwich) | Kilbride, Denis | Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland) |
| Cawley, Harold T. (Lancs., Heywood) | Lambert, Rt. Hon. G. (Devon,S.Molton) | Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees) |
| Clancy, John Joseph | Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade) | Scanian, Thomas |
| Clough, William | Lardner, James C. R. | Scott, A. MacCallum (Glas., Bridgeton) |
| Collins, Sir Stephen (Lambeth) | Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, West) | Sheehy, David |
| Compton-Rickett, Rt. Hon. Sir J. | Lawson, Sir W. (Cumb'rld, Cockerm'th) | Sherwell, Arthur James |
| Condon, Thomas Joseph | Leach, Charles | Shortt, Edward |
| Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. | Levy, Sir Maurice | Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir John Allsebrook |
| Cotton, William Francis | Lewis, Rt. Hon. John Herbert | Smith, Albert (Lancs., Clitheroe) |
| Crooks, William | Lundon, Thomas | Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.) |
| Crumley, Patrick | Lyell, Charles Henry | Snowden, Philip |
| Cullinan, John | Lynch, A. A. | Stanley, Albert (Staffs, N.W.) |
| Davies, Ellis William (Eifion) | Macdonald, J. Ramsay (Leicester) | Strauss, Edward A. (Southwark, West) |
| Davies, Timothy (Lincs., Louth) | Macnamara, Rt. Hon. Dr. T. J. | Sutton, John E. |
| Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.) | Macpherson, James Ian | Swann, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles E. |
| Dawes, James Arthur | MacVeagh, Jeremiah | Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe) |
| Delany, William | McKenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald | Taylor, Thomas (Bolton) |
| Denman, Hon. Richard Douglas | M'Laren, Hon. F.W.S. (Lincs., Spalding) | Thomas, James Henry |
| Devlin, Joseph | M'Micking, Major Gilbert | Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton) |
| Dillon, John | Marks, Sir George Croydon | Thorne, William (West Ham) |
| Donelan, Captain A. | Meagher, Michael | Trevelyan, Charles Philips |
| Doris, William | Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.) | Verney, Sir Harry |
| Duffy, William J. | Meehan, Patrick J. (Queen's Co., Leix) | Walton, Sir Joseph |
| Duncan, J. Hastings (Yorks, Otley) | Molloy, Michael | Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent) |
| Edwards, John Hugh (Glamorgan, Mid) | Molteno, Percy Alport | Waring, Walter |
| Esmonde, Sir Thomas (Wexford, N.) | Mond, Rt. Hon. Sir Alfred | Warner, Sir Thomas Courtenay T. |
| Essex, Sir Richard Walter | Montagu, Hon. E. S. | Wason, Rt. Hon. E. (Clackmannan) |
| Falconer, James | Mooney, John J. | Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney) |
| Farrell, James Patrick | Morgan, George Hay | Watt, Henry A. |
| Fenwick, Rt. Hon. Charles | Morison, Hector | Webb, H. |
| Ferens, Rt. Hon. Thomas Robinson | Morton, Alpheus Cleophas | White, J. Dundas (Glasgow, Tradeston) |
| Ffrench, Peter | Muldoon, John | White, Sir Luke (Yorks, E.R.) |
| Field, William | Munro, Rt. Hon. Robert | White, Patrick (Meath, North) |
| Fitzgibbon, John | Nannetti, Joseph P. | Whyte, A. F. (Perth) |
| Flavin, Michael Joseph | Nicholson, Sir Charles N. (Doncaster) | Wiles, Thomas |
| Gelder, Sir W. A. | Nolan, Joseph | Wilkie, Alexander |
| Gill, A. H. | Nugent, Sir Walter Richard | Williams, Aneurin (Durham, N.W.) |
| Ginnell, Laurence | O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) | Williams, John (Glamorgan) |
| Gladstone, W. G. C. | O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.) | Williams, Penry (Middlesbrough) |
| Glanville, Harold James | O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool) | Wilson, John (Durham, Mid) |
| Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford | O'Doherty, Philip | Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton) |
| Greenwood, Hamar (Sunderland) | O'Donnell, Thomas | Winfrey, Sir Richard |
| Gulland, John William | O'Dowd, John | Wing, Thomas Edward |
| Gwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway) | O'Kelly, Edward P. (Wicklow, W.) | Wood, Rt. Hon. T. McKinnon (Glasgow) |
| Hackett, John | O'Malley, William | Yeo, A. W. |
| Hancock, John George | O'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, S.) | Young, William (Perthshire, East) |
| Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose) | O'Shaughnessy, P. J. | Yoxall, Sir James Henry |
| Hardie, J. Keir | O'Shee, James John | |
| Harmsworth, Cecil (Luton, Beds) | O'Sullivan, Timothy | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr. |
| Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, West) | Palmer, Godfrey Mark | Wm. Jones and Mr. Geoffrey Howard. |
| Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N.E.) |
§ Mr. JAMES HOPEI beg to move, "That Item D (Incidental Expenses) be reduced by £50."
1522 In the course of my Parliamentary experience I have often heard, or had submitted to me, barren, jejune, fruitless, 1523 superfluous, and meaningless official explanations, but I have never had one which was quite equal to the one which is put under the heading of "(d) Incidental Expenses." It says
the original provision has proved insufficient by £90.Just above that we had this statement:—Incidental expenses, original estimate £813. Revised estimate £703, the difference between which is £90.Surely, in face of that, it is not necessary to put in the special note that the original provision proved insufficient! Clearly there is a difference of £90 between £613 and £703. In face of that, I must ask the Secretary to the Treasury in what respect the provision has proved insufficient?
§ Mr. MONTAGUI will endeavour to give the hon. Member the explanation required, very shortly. If, in an unforeseen way, the activities of the Department in special work have been increased, and additional members of the staff have been engaged, a greater expenditure of money has been necessitated in postage stamps, stationery, messages, and all those small expenses incidental to the running of a large office, which is the necessary corollary of the increased Vote which the House has just sanctioned under Sub-head A.
§ Sir F. BANBURYIt seems a very extraordinary explanation to say that owing to the increased staff more postage stamps
§ and stationery were required, the sum required for the increased staff is £813, and the stamps and stationery are £90. This is a very large sum. You could work it out "if the increased salaries paid to the stall are £813, how much would the extra stamps and paper cost which would be required for their work?" and the answer is £90. That is absurd on the face of it. It is quite impossible that the people who were paid £813 for extra work could have consumed £90 worth of stamps and paper. The original estimate for salaries was £15,108, and the increase was £813. That is an increase of about 5 per cent.; whereas the original estimate for incidental expenses was £613, and the increase is £90, or 15 per cent. That is, three times the increase experienced in the other case. Therefore, the explanation given is absolutely absurd. If the hon. Gentleman will kindly ask the Vice-President of the Board of Trade to ask the gentleman under the Gallery to furnish a better explanation, I am quite sure it will be forthcoming; because, really, with all the desire on my part to do the best I can for the hon. Gentleman, I cannot accept the explanation which has been given.
§ Question put, "That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding £853, be granted for the said Service."
§ The Committee divided: Ayes, 74; Noes, 230.
1525| Division No. 14.] | AYES. | [9.30 p.m. |
| Agg-Gardner, James Tynte | Goldman, C. S. | Peto, Basil Edward |
| Archer-Shee, Major Martin | Gordon, John (Londonderry, South) | Pollock, Ernest Murray |
| Baldwin, Stanley | Greene, W. R. | Randles, Sir John S. |
| Banbury, Sir Frederick George | Gretton, John | Rawson, Colonel Richard H. |
| Barnston, Harry | Guinness, Hon. Rupert (Essex, S.E.) | Rees, Sir J. D. |
| Bathurst, Charles (Wilts, Wilton) | Hamilton, C. G. C. (Ches., Altrincham) | Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall) |
| Bigland, Alfred | Harris, Henry Percy | Rutherford, Watson (L'pool, W. Derby) |
| Bird, Alfred | Henderson, Major H. (Berks, Abingdon) | Sanders, Robert Arthur |
| Bridgeman, William Clive | Hewins, William Albert Samuel | Sanderson, Lancelot |
| Campion, W. R. | Hills, John Waller | Sandys, G. J. |
| Carlile, Sir Edward Hildred | Hohler, Gerald Fitzroy | Stanley, Hon. G. F. (Preston) |
| Cassel, Felix | Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield) | Stewart, Gershom |
| Cautley, H. S. | Horner, Andrew Long | Strauss, Arthur (Paddington, North) |
| Cecil, Lord R. (Herts, Hitchin) | Houston, Robert Paterson | Talbot, Lord Edmund |
| Clive, Captain Percy Archer | Ingleby, Holcombe | Touche, George Alexander |
| Cooper, Sir Richard Ashmole | Locker-Lampson, G. (Salisbury) | Valentia, Viscount |
| Courthope, George Loyd | Locker-Lampson, O. (Ramsey) | Walker, Colonel William Hall |
| Dalziel, Davison (Brixton) | Macmaster, Donald | Watson, Hon. W. |
| Denniss, E. R. B. | Magnus, Sir Philip | Wheler, Granville C. H. |
| Du Pre, W. Baring | Mount, William Arthur | Willoughby, Major Hon. Claud |
| Eyres-Monsell, Bolton M. | Nield, Herbert | Yate, Colonel C. E. |
| Fell, Arthur | O'Neill, Hon. A. E. B. (Antrim, Mid) | Younger, Sir George |
| Fetherstonhaugh, Godfrey | Orde-Powlett, Hon. W. G. A. | |
| Gardner, Ernest | Paget, Almeric Hugh | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr. |
| Gastrell, Major W. Houghton | Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington) | Newman and Captain Wilson. |
| Gilmour, Captain John | Perkins, Walter Frank | |
| NOES. | ||
| Abraham, William (Dublin, Harbour) | Agnew, Sir George William | Allen, Arthur A. (Dumbartonshire) |
| Acland, Francis Dyke | Ainsworth, John Stirling | Allen, Rt. Hon. Charles P. (Stroud) |
| Addison, Dr. Christopher | Alden, Percy | Baker, Joseph Allen (Finsbury, E.) |
| Baring, Sir Godfrey (Barnstaple) | Hazleton, Richard | Phillips, John (Longford, S.) |
| Barnes, George N. | Hemmerde, Edward George | Pirie, Duncan V. |
| Beauchamp, Sir Edward | Henderson, Arthur (Durham) | Pointer, Joseph |
| Beck, Arthur Cecil | Henderson, J. M. (Aberdeen, W.) | Pratt, J. W. |
| Benn, W. W. (T. Hamlets, St. George) | Higham, John Sharp | Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central) |
| Black, Arthur W. | Hinds, John | Price, Sir Robert J. (Norfolk, E.) |
| Boland, John Pius | Hobhouse, Rt. Hon. Charles E. H. | Primrose, Hon. Neil James |
| Booth, Frederick Handel | Hodge, John | Radford, G. H. |
| Bowerman, Charles W. | Holmes, Daniel Turner | Raffan, Peter Wilson |
| Boyle, Daniel (Mayo, North) | Holt, Richard Durning | Rea, Walter Russell (Scarborough) |
| Brace, William | Hope, John Deans (Haddington) | Reddy, Michael |
| Brady, Patrick Joseph | Hudson, Walter | Redmond, John E. (Waterford) |
| Brocklehurst, William B. | Hughes, Spencer Leigh | Rendall, Athelstan |
| Brunner, John F. L. | Illingworth, Percy H. | Richardson, Albion (Peckham) |
| Bryce, J. Annan | Johnson, W. | Richardson, Thomas (Whitehaven) |
| Buckmaster, Sir Stanley O. | Jones, Edgar (Merthyr Tydvil) | Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln) |
| Burke, E. Haviland | Jones, J. Towyn (Carmarthen, East) | Roberts, Sir J. H. (Denbighs) |
| Burns, Rt. Hon. John | Jones, William S. Glyn- (Stepney) | Robertson, John M. (Tyneside) |
| Byles, Sir William Pollard | Jowett, Frederick William | Robinson, Sidney |
| Carr-Gomm, H. W. | Joyce, Michael | Roche, Augustine (Louth, N.) |
| Cawley, Sir Frederick (Prestwich) | Kellaway, Frederick George | Roe, Sir Thomas |
| Cawley, Harold T. (Lancs., Heywood) | Kelly, Edward | Rowlands, James |
| Chapple, Dr. William Allen | Kennedy, Vincent Paul | Rowntree, Arnold |
| Clancy, John Joseph | Kilbride, Denis | Russell, Rt. Hon. Thomas W. |
| Clough, William | Lambert, Rt. Hon. G. (Devon, S. Molten) | Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland) |
| Collins, Sir Stephen (Lambeth) | Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade) | Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees) |
| Compton-Rickett. Rt. Hon. Sir J. | Lardner, James C. R. | Scanlan, Thomas |
| Condon, Thomas Joseph | Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, West) | Scott, A. MacCallum (Glas., Bridgeton) |
| Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. | Lawson, Sir W. (Cumb'rld, Cockerm'th) | Sheehy, David |
| Cotton, William Francis | Levy, Sir Maurice | Sherwell, Arthur James |
| Crooks, William | Lewis, Rt. Hon. John Herbert | Shortt, Edward |
| Crumley, Patrick | Lundon, Thomas | Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir John Allsebrook |
| Cullinan, John | Lyell, Charles Henry | Smith, Albert (Lanes., Clitheroe) |
| Davies, Ellis William (Eifion) | Lynch, Arthur Alfred | Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.) |
| Davies, Timothy (Lincs., Louth) | Macdonald, J. Ramsay (Leicester) | Snowden, Philip |
| Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.) | Macnamara, Rt. Hon. Dr. T. J. | Stanley, Albert (Staffs, N.W.) |
| Dawes, James Arthur | Macpherson, James Ian | Strauss, Edward A. (Southwark, West) |
| Delany, William | MacVeagh, Jeremiah | Sutton, John E. |
| Denman, Hon. Richard Douglas | McKenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald | Swann, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles E. |
| Devlin, Joseph | M'Laren, Hon. F.W.S. (Lincs., Spalding) | Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe) |
| Dillon, John | M'Micking, Major Gilbert | Taylor, Thomas (Bolton) |
| Donelan, Captain A. | Marks, Sir George Croydon | Thomas, James Henry |
| Doris, William | Meagher, Michael | Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton) |
| Duffy, William J. | Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.) | Thorne, William (West Ham) |
| Duncan, J. Hastings (Yorks, Otley) | Meehan, Patrick J. (Queen's Co., Leix) | Trevelyan, Charles Philips |
| Edwards, John Hugh (Glamorgan, Mid) | Molloy, Michael | Verney, Sir Harry |
| Esmonde, Sir Thomas (Wexford, N.) | Molteno, Percy Alport | Walton, Sir Joseph |
| Essex, Sir Richard Walter | Mond, Rt. Hon. Sir Alfred | Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent) |
| Falconer, James | Montagu, Hon. E. S. | Waring, Walter |
| Farrell, James Patrick | Mooney, John J. | Warner, Sir Thomas Courtenay T. |
| Fenwick, Rt. Hon. Charles | Morgan, George Hay | Wason, Rt. Hon. E. (Clackmannan) |
| Ferens, Rt. Hon. Thomas Robinson | Morison, Hector | Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney) |
| Ffrench, Peter | Morton, Alpheus Cleophas | Watt, Henry A. |
| Field, William | Muldoon, John | Webb, Henry |
| Fitzgibbon, John | Munro, Rt. Hon. Robert | White, J. Dundas (Glasgow, Tradeston) |
| Flavin, Michael Joseph | Nannetti, Joseph P. | White, Sir Luke (Yorks, E,R.) |
| elder, Sir W. A. | Nicholson, Sir Charles N. (Doncaster) | White, Patrick (Meath, North) |
| Gill, A. H. | Nolan, Joseph | Whyte, Alexander F. (Perth) |
| Ginnell, Laurence | Nugent, Sir Walter Richard | Wiles, Thomas |
| Gladstone, W. G. C. | O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) | Wilkie, Alexander |
| Glanville, H. J. | O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.) | Williams, Aneurin (Durham, N.W.) |
| Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford | O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool) | Williams, John (Glamorgan) |
| Greenwood, Hamar (Sunderland) | O'Doherty, Philip | Williams, Penry (Middlesbrough) |
| Gulland, John William | O'Donnell, Thomas | Wilson, John (Durham, Mid) |
| Gwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway) | O'Dowd, John | Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton) |
| Hackett. John | O'Kelly, Edward P. (Wicklow, W.) | Winfrey, Sir Richard |
| Hancock, John George | O'Malley, William | Wing, Thomas Edward |
| Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose) | O'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, S.) | Wood, Rt. Hon. T. McKinnon (Glasgow) |
| Hardie, J. Keir | O'Shaughnessy, P. J. | Yeo, A. W. |
| Harmsworth, Cecil (Luton, Beds) | O'Shee, James John | Young. William (Perthshire, East) |
| Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, West) | O'Sullivan, Timothy | Yoxall, Sir James Henry |
| Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N.E.) | Palmer, Godfrey Mark | |
| Havelock-Allan, Sir Henry | Parker, James (Halifax) | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr. |
| Hayden, John Patrick | Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek) | Wm. Jones and Mr. Geoffrey Howard. |
| Hayward, Evan | Pearce, William (Limehouse) |
§ Original Question put.
1526§ The Committee divided: Ayes, 235; Noes, 73.
1529| Division No. 15.] | AYES. | [9.39 p.m. |
| Abraham, William (Dublin, Harbour) | Agnew, Sir George William | Allen, Arthur A. (Dumbartonshire) |
| Acland, Francis Dyke | Ainsworth, John Stirling | Allen, Rt. Hon. Charles P. (Stroud) |
| Addison, Dr. Christopher | Alden, Percy | Baker, Joseph Allen (Finsbury, E.) |
| Baring, Sir Godfrey (Barnstaple) | Henderson, Arthur (Durham) | Phillips, John (Longford, S.) |
| Barnes, George N. | Henderson, John M. (Aberdeen, W.) | Pirie, Duncan V. |
| Beauchamp, Sir Edward | Higham, John Sharp | Pointer, Joseph |
| Beck, Arthur Cecil | Hinds, John | Pratt, J. W. |
| Benn, W. W. (T. Hamlets, St. George) | Hobhouse, Rt. Hon. Charles E. H. | Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central) |
| Black, Arthur W. | Hodge, John | Price, Sir Robert J. (Norfolk, E.) |
| Boland, John Pius | Holmes, Daniel Turner | Primrose, Hon. Neil James |
| Booth, Frederick Handel | Holt, Richard Durning | Radford, G. H. |
| Bowerman, Charles W. | Hope, John Deans (Haddington) | Raffan, Peter Wilson |
| Boyle, Daniel (Mayo, North) | Hudson, Walter | Rea, Walter Russell (Scarborough) |
| Brace, William | Hughes, Spencer Leigh | Redmond, John E. (Waterford) |
| Brady, Patrick Joseph | Illingworth, Percy H. | Rendail, Athelstan |
| Brocklehurst, W. B. | Johnson, W. | Richardson, Albion (Peckham) |
| Brunner, John F. L. | Jones, Edgar (Merthyr Tydvil) | Richardson, Thomas (Whitehaven) |
| Bryce, J. Annan | Jones, J. Towyn (Carmarthen, East) | Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln) |
| Buckmaster, Sir Stanley 0. | Jones, William S. Glyn- (Stepney) | Roberts, Sir J. H. (Denbighs) |
| Burke, E. Haviland- | Jowett, Frederick William | Robertson, John M. (Tyneside) |
| Burns, Rt. Hon. John | Joyce, Michael | Robinson, Sydney |
| Byles, Sir William Pollard | Keating, Matthew | Roch, Walter F. (Pembroke) |
| Carr-Gomm, H. W. | Kellaway, Frederick George | Roche, Augustine (Louth) |
| Cawley, Sir Frederick (Prestwich) | Kelly, Edward | Roe, Sir Thomas |
| Cawley, Harold T. (Lanes., Heywood) | Kennedy, Vincent Paul | Rowlands, James |
| Chapple, Dr. William Allen | Kilbride, Denis | Rowntree, Arnold |
| Clancy, John Joseph | Lambert, Rt. Hon. G. (Devon, S.Molton) | Russell, Rt. Hon. Thomas W. |
| Clough, William | Lambert, Richard Wilts, Cricklade) | Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland) |
| Collins, Sir Stephen (Lambeth) | Lardner, James C. R. | Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees) |
| Compton-Rickett, Rt. Hon. Sir J. | Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, West) | Scanlan, Thomas |
| Condon, Thomas Joseph | Lawson, Sir W. (Cumb'rld, Cockerm'th) | Scott, A. MacCallum (Glas., Bridgeton) |
| Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. | Levy, Sir Maurice | Seely, Rt. Hon. Colonel J. E. B. |
| Cotton, William Francis | Lewis, Rt. Hon. John Herbert | Sheehy, David |
| Crooks, William | Lundon, Thomas | Sherwell, Arthur James |
| Crumley, Patrick | Lyell, Charles Henry | Shortt, Edward. |
| Cullinan, John | Lynch, Arthur Alfred | Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir John Allsebrook |
| Davies, Ellis William (Eifion) | Macdonald, J. Ramsay (Leicester) | Smith, Albert (Lanes., Clitheroe) |
| Davies, Timothy (Lincs., Louth) | Macnamara, Rt. Hon. Dr. T. J. | Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.) |
| Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.) | Macpherson, James Ian | Snowden, Philip |
| Dawes, J. A. | MacVeagh, Jeremiah | Stanley, Albert (Staffs, N.W.) |
| Delany, William | McKenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald | Strauss, Edward A. (Southwark, West) |
| Denman, Hon. Richard Douglas | M'Laren, Hon. F.W.S. (Lincs., Spalding) | Sutton, John E. |
| Devlin, Joseph | M'Micking, Major Gilbert | Swann, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles E. |
| Dillon, John | Marks, Sir George Croydon | Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe) |
| Donelan, Captain A. | Meagher, Michael | Taylor, Thomas (Bolton) |
| Doris, William | Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.) | Thomas, J. H. |
| Duffy, William J. | Meehan, Patrick J. (Queen's Co., Leix) | Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton) |
| Duncan, J. Hastings (Yorks, Otley) | Molloy, Michael | Thorne, William (West Ham) |
| Edwards, John Hugh (Glamorgan, Mid) | Molteno, Percy Alport | Trevelyan, Charles Philips |
| Esmonde, Sir Thomas (Wexford, N.) | Mond, Rt. Hon. Sir Alfred | Verney, Sir Harry |
| Essex, Sir Richard Walter | Montagu, Hon. E. S. | Walton, Sir Joseph |
| Falconer, James | Mooney, John J. | Waro, John (Stoke-upon-Trent) |
| Farrell, James Patrick | Morgan, George Hay | Wardle, George J. |
| Fenwick, Rt. Hon. Charles | Morison, Hector | Waring, Walter |
| Ferens, Rt. Hon. Thomas Robinson | Morton, Alpheus Cleophas | Warner, Sir Thomas Courtenay T. |
| Ffrench, Peter | Muldoon, John | Wason, Rt. Hon. E. (Clackmannan) |
| Field, William | Munro, Rt. Hon. Robert | Wason John Cathcart (Orkney) |
| Fitzgibbon, John | Nannetti, Joseph P. | Watt, Henry A. |
| Flavin, Michael Joseph | Nicholson, Sir Charles N. (Doncaster) | Webb, H. |
| Gelder, Sir W. A. | Nolan, Joseph | White, J. Dundas (Glasgow, Tradeston) |
| Gill, A. H. | Norton, Captain Cecil W. | White, Sir Luke (Yorks, E.R.) |
| Ginnell, Laurence | Nugent, Sir Walter Richard | White, Patrick (Meath, North) |
| Gladstone, W. G. C. | O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) | Whyte, Alexander F. (Perth) |
| Glanville, H. J. | O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.) | Wiles, Thomas |
| Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford | O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool) | Wilkie, Alexander |
| Greenwood, Hamas (Sunderland) | O'Doherty, Philip | Williams, Aneurin (Durham, N.W.) |
| Gulland, John William | O'Donnell, Thomas | Williams, John (Glamorgan) |
| Gwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway) | O'Dowd, John | Williams, Penry (Middlesbrough) |
| Hackett, John | O'Kelly, Edward P. (Wicklow, W.) | Wilson, John (Durham, Mid) |
| Hancock, J. G. | O'Malley. William | Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton) |
| Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose) | O'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, S.) | Winfrey, Sir Richard |
| Hardie, J. Keir | O'Shaughnessy, P. J. | Wing, Thomas Edward |
| Harmsworth, Cecil (Luton, Beds) | O'Shee, James John | Wood, Rt. Hon. T. McKinnon (Glasgow) |
| Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, West) | O'Sullivan, Timothy | Yeo, A. W. |
| Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire) | Palmer, Godfrey Mark | Young, William (Perthshire, East) |
| Havelock-Allan, Sir Henry | Parker, James (Halifax) | Yoxall, Sir James Henry |
| Hayden, John Patrick | Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek) | |
| Hayward, Evan | Pearce, William (Limehouse) | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr. |
| Hazleton, Richard | Pease, Rt. Hon. Joseph A. (Rotherham) | Wm. Jones and Mr. Geoffrey Howard. |
| Hemmerde, Edward George | ||
| NOES. | ||
| Agg-Gardner, James Tynte | Bathurst, Charles (Wilts, Wilton) | Carlile, Sir Edward Hildred |
| Archer-Shee, Major Martin | Bird, Alfred | Cassel, Felix |
| Baldwin, Stanley | Bridgeman, William Clive | Cator, John |
| Barnston, Harry | Campion, W. R | Cautley, Henry Strother |
| Cecil, Lord R. (Herts, Hitchin) | Hohler, Gerald Fitzroy | Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall) |
| Clive, Captain Percy Archer | Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield) | Rutherford, Watson (L'pool, W. Derby) |
| Cooper, Sir Richard Ashmole | Horner, Andrew Long | Sanders, Robert Arthur |
| Courthope, George Loyd | Houston, Robert Paterson | Sanderson, Lancelot |
| Dalziel, Davison (Brixton) | Hunter, Sir Charles Rodk., | Sandys, G. J. |
| Denniss, E. R. B. | Locker-Lampson, G. (Salisbury) | Stanley, Hon. G. F. (Preston) |
| Du Pre, W. Baring | Locker-Lampson, O. (Ramsey) | Stewart, Gershom |
| Eyres-Monsell, Bolton M. | Macmaster, Donald | Strauss, Arthur (Paddington, North) |
| Fell, Arthur | Magnus, Sir Philip | Talbot, Lord Edmund |
| Fetherstonhaugh, Godtrey | Mount, William Arthur | Touche, George Alexander |
| Gardner, Ernest | Newman, John R. P. | Valentia, Viscount |
| Gastrell, Major W. Houghton | Nield, Herbert | Walker, Colonel William Hall |
| Cilmour, Captain John | O'Neill, Hon. A. E. B. (Antrim, Mid) | Watson, Hon. W. |
| Gordon, John (Londonderry, South) | Orde-Powlett, Hon. W. G. A. | Wheler, Granville C. H. |
| Greene, Walter Raymond | Paget, Almeric Hugh | Willoughby, Major Hon. Claud |
| Gretton, John | Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington) | Wilson, Captain Leslie O. (Reading) |
| Guinness, Hon. Rupert (Essex, S.E.) | Perkins, Walter Frank | Yate, Colonel C. E. |
| Hamilton, C. G. C. (Ches., Altrincham) | Peto, Basil Edward | Younger, Sir George |
| Harris, Henry Percy | Randles, Sir John S. | |
| Henderson, Major H. (Berks, Abingdon) | Rawson, Colonel Richard H. | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Sir |
| Hewins, William Albert Samuel | Rees, Sir J. D. | F. Banbury and Mr. Bigland. |
| Hills, John Waller |