Commons Sitting of 5 August 1914

Preamble
The House met at a Quarter before Three, of the clock, Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.

PRIVATE BUSINESS.
Message from the Lords, That they have agreed to:
Weymouth and Melcombe Regis Corporation Bill,
Clergy Mutual Assurance Society Bill,
Isle of Thanet Gas Bill,
London County Council (Money) Bill,
City of London (Various Powers) Bill,
Oxford and District Tramways Bill, with Amendments.
That they have passed a Bill, intituled "An Act to dissolve the marriage of Henry John Pack-Beresford, of Kellestown House, in the county of Carlow, Major, with Sybil Maud Pack-Beresford, his now wife, and to enable him to marry again; and for other purposes." [Pack-Beresford Divorce Bill [Lords.]
Pack-Beresford Divorce Bill [Lords],
Read the first time; and ordered to be read a second time.
Bristol Corporation (Tramways) Bill [Lords],
As amended, considered.
Ordered, That Standing Orders 223 and 243 be suspended, and that the Bill be now-read the third time.—[The Chairman of Ways and Means.]
Bill accordingly read the third time, and passed, with Amendments.
Kirkcaldy Corporation Order Confirmation Bill,
Considered; read the third time, and passed.

NAVAL AND MILITARY OPERATIONS AND OTHER EXPENDITURE ARISING OUT OF THE WAR, 1914–15 (VOTE OF CREDIT).
Estimate presented of the Sum required to be voted beyond the ordinary Grants of Parliament towards defraying the Expenses which may be incurred during the
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year ending 31st March, 1915 for all measures which may be taken for the security of the Country; for the conduct of Naval and Military Operations; for assisting the food supply; for promoting the continuance of trade, industry, business, and communications, whether by means of insurance or indemnity against risk or otherwise; for relief of distress; and generally for all Expenses arising out of the existence of a state of War [by Command]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 416]

ARMY (SUPPLEMENTARY ESTIMATE).
Estimate presented of the Additional Number of Men required in the year ending 31st March, 1915, in consequence of the War in Europe [by Command]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 415.]
NAVY (SUPPLEMENTARY ESTIMATE, 1914–15).
Estimate presented of the Additional Number of Officers and Men required to be voted for the Navy for the year ending 31st March, 1915 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 417.]
GOVERNMENT CHEMIST.
Copy presented of Report of the Government Chemist upon the Work of the Government Laboratory for the year ended 31st March, 1914, with Appendices [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
PUBLIC WORKS (IRELAND).
Copy presented of Eighty-second Annual Report of the Commissioners of Public Works in Ireland, with Appendices, for the year ending 31st March, 1914 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
SOLDIERS' EMPLOYMENT.
Return presented relative thereto [ordered 11th May; Colonel Yate]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 418.]

NATIONAL INSURANCE ACT.
Copy presented of Regulations, dated 31st July, 1914, made by the National Health Insurance Joint Committee, entitled the National Health Insurance (Method of Taking a Poll) Regulations, 1914 [by Act]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 419.]
Copy presented of Regulations, dated 29th July, 1914, made by the National Health Insurance Joint Committee, entitled the National Health Insurance (Tables of Reserve Values) Regulations, 1914 [by Act]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 420.]
Copy presented of Regulations, dated 29th July, 1914, made by the National Health Insurance Joint Committee, entitled the National Health Insurance (Voluntary Rate) Regulations, 1914 [by Act]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 421.]

CLERGY (WEST INDIES).
Copy presented of Return of Amount payable on 5th January, 1914 out of the Consolidated Fund for Ecclesiastical Purposes in the West Indies [by Act]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 422.]
LOCAL TAXATION (SCOTLAND).
Copy presented of the Annual Local Taxation Returns (Scotland) for the year 1912–13 [by Act]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 423.]
EUROPEAN CRISTS (MISCELLANEOUS, No. 6, 1914).
Copy presented of Correspondence respecting the European Crisis [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
CROWN AGENTS FOR THE COLONIES.
Copy presented of Accounts of the Crown Agents' Office Funds for 1913 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
LOCAL AUTHORITIES (LAND AND HOUSING)
Return presented relative thereto [ordered 4th August; Mr. Petal]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 424.]

LOCAL TAXATION RETURNS (ENGLAND AND WALES).
Copy presented of the Annual Local Taxation Returns for the year 1911–12. Part VII. Summary and Index [by Act]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 425.]
Papers laid upon the Table by the Clerk of the House:—

1. Adjournment Motions under Standing Order No. 10.—Return relative thereto-[ordered 4th August; The Deputy-Chairman]; to be printed. [No. 426.]

2. Closure of Debate (Standing Order-No. 26).—Return relative thereto [ordered 4th August; The Deputy-Chairman]; to be printed. [No. 427.]

3. Public Bills.—Return relative thereto-[ordered 4th August; The Deputy-Chairman]; to be printed.

4. Public Petitions.—Return relative thereto [ordered 4th August; The Deputy-Chairman]; to be printed.

5. Select Committees.—Return relative thereto [ordered 4th August; The Deputy-Chairman]; to be printed.

6. Standing Committees.—Return relative thereto [ordered 4th August; The Deputy-Chairman]; to be printed.

7. Sittings of the House.—Return relative thereto [ordered 4th August; The Deputy-Chairman]; to be printed.

8. Business of the House (Days Occupied by Government and by Private Members).—Return relative thereto [ordered 4th August; The Deputy-Chairman]; to be printed. [No. 428.]

9. Private Bills and Private Business.—Return relative thereto [ordered 4th August; The Deputy-Chairman]; to be printed.

10. Workmen's Compensation Rules.—Copy of the Workmen's Compensation Rules, 1914, dated 23rd July, 1914 [by Act].

PRIVATE BILLS.
Great Central Railway (Pension Fund) Bill [Lords],
Reported, with Amendments; Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.
Weston-super-Mare Urban District Council Bill [Lords],
Reported, with Amendments, from the Local Legislation Committee (Section A); Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.

ESTIMATES.
Report from the Select Committee, with Minutes of Evidence, brought up, and read.
Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 429.]

ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS.

  Mail Contracts.
  Mr. MORTONasked the Postmaster-General the cost for carrying mails between Lairg and Tongue formerly and the cost under the new arrangements; the cost now between Thurso and Skerray and the cost formerly; and how many persons tendered for carrying the mails on the Thurso route, their names, and the amounts of the tenders?
  The POSTMASTER-GENERAL (Mr. Hobhouse): I am communicating with the hon. Member on the subject, and I cannot now say more than that the total cost of the present services to Tongue and Skerray is less than the expense which would have been incurred in continuing the former arrangements. It would be contrary to practice to furnish the prices quoted by tenderers for Post Office contracts.

  Mrs. Blake's Estate.
  Mr. GINNELLasked the Secretary to the Treasury the present amount of the personal estate and the present estimated value of the real estate of the late Mrs. Blake, née Ellen Sheridan?
  The FINANCIAL SECRETARY to the TREASURY (Mr. Montagu): I would refer the hon. Member to the reply which was made on 30th ult.
  Mr. GINNELL: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the reply he refers to does not contain the information asked?
  Mr. MONTAGU: I have given as far as I can the information the hon. Member requires, and I am sending him references of all previous questions.

  Congested Districts Board (Ireland).
  Mr. BOLANDasked the Chief Secretary for Ireland whether the Congested Districts Board will undertake the provision of a pier or slip at Rineen, in Ballinskelligs Bay, with a view to developing the fishing industry in that district?
  The CHIEF SECRETARY for IRELAND (Mr. Birrell): Having regard to the work at present in progress on the western shore of Ballinskelligs Bay, the cost of which will, it is expected, exceed £1,100, the Congested Districts Board are not at present in a position to consider plans for the improvement of the landing accommodation at Rineen.

  National Education (Ireland).
  Mr. GINNELLasked the Chief Secretary for Ireland, in view of the fact that the Rules and Regulations of the Commissioners of National Education for 1914–15 embody none of the improvements recommended in the Report of the Viceregal Committee on Primary Education, whether any amending rules will be issued to managers and teachers simultaneously, and how soon; what provision is to be made for the more rapid promotion of deserving teachers; by how many years' successful teaching can a teacher obtain the highest-grade salary; from what date will the increments begin; will they be annual; will the Commissioners recognise monitors in schools with an average daily attendance of forty pupils; what are the maximum and minimum ages for monitors; what gratuity, if any, is to be paid to a teacher for training a monitor; and when will the fees for teaching Irish be paid to the teachers?
  Mr. BIRRELL: The Commissioners of National Education have not completed their consideration of the Viceregal Committee's Report, and consequently it would be premature to make any statement in regard to their future action in connection with their recommendations. The Commissioners will recognise monitors in schools with a daily attendance of forty pupils. The maximum age for boy and

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  girl monitors is seventeen years and the minimum for boys fourteen years and girls fifteen years. No gratuity is paid to a teacher for training a monitor. Fees for teaching Irish are being paid at present.

  Land Purchase (Ireland).
  Mr. GINNELLasked the Chief Secretary if he is now in a position to say how many of the grazier tenants on Lady Chapman's estate, Westmeath, are held by the Estates Commissioners competent to buy, under the Land Purchase Acts, the nonresidential farms on which they are restricted from building and tilling, and the number of acres in each case; how many acres remain for distribution among congested and landless people; whether all the residential tenants have yet signed purchase agreements; in what way, if at all, the tenants have been consulted regarding the disposal of the estate; and by what date the Commissioners expect to be able to deal with the estate?
  Mr. BIRRELL: All the tenants on this estate who hold under yearly tenancies but restricted to pasturage come within the classes of persons who can buy their holdings under the Land Purchase Acts. The acreage comprised in these tenancies is some 990 acres. The area of untenanted land offered by the vendor to the Commissioners is 600 acres, but, at the present stage of the negotiations, the Estates Commissioners are not prepared to make any statement as to the area of land which may eventually be available for distribution. Undertakings to purchase have not yet been lodged with the Commissioners. The estate has not yet been acquired by the Commissioners and they have not made any arrangements for its disposal. They cannot at present say when it may be vested in them.
  Mr. GINNELLasked whether the Estates Commissioners are about to purchase the lands of Lispopple and Dyrra, the property of the late Hugh P. Wilson, near Coole, Westmeath; if so, what the area is; whether it will be distributed among suitable landless people and occupants of uneconomic holdings in the vicinity; and when the distribution is likely to be carried out?
  Mr. BIRRELL: The Estates Commissioners are unable from the particulars furnished to identify the property referred to as being the subject of proceedings for sale before them under the Irish Land Acts.

  Royal Irish Constabulary.
  Mr. GINNELLasked the Chief Secretary whether he is aware that, of the 6,000 subscribers to the Irish Constabulary Force Fund, only 700, being less than one-eighth, are still serving in the force; whether he is aware that the reports and statements of account of the fund issued to police stations in the last two years have not been sent to the non-serving subscribers nor to their associations; and whether he will have this omission immediately rectified and the last two years' accounts of the fund sent to all subscribers thereto?
  Mr. BIRRELL: The present number of subscribers to this fund serving and on pension is generally as stated in the question. The annual statement of the benefit branch of the fund, now published, is only circulated among members of the force, one copy being sent to every station, to be retained there for general information. I have now given directions that in future arrangements are to be made by which any subscriber desirous of obtaining a copy will be in a position to do so by applying direct to the Inspector-General at the Constabulary Office, Dublin Castle.

  Evicted Tenants (Ireland).
  Mr. GINNELLasked the Chief Secretary if he will grant a Return, by counties, of which notice appears on the Order Paper, of all lands acquired for the purposes of the Evicted Tenants (Ireland) Act, 1907, under the powers conferred by that Act and extended by Section 67 of the Irish Land Act, 1909; and if he will explain why all bonâ fide evicted tenants and representatives of such have not yet been provided for under those statutory powers?
  Mr. BIRRELL: I do not see that any useful purpose would be served by publishing such a Return, and I cannot therefore consent to its being granted. With the hon. Member's permission, I will publish with to-night's Votes a statement with regard to the reinstatement of evicted tenants.

  Income Tax Acts.
  Sir J. D. REESasked the Prime Minister whether the tribunal of inquiry into the Income Tax Acts will be a Royal Commission?
  The PRIME MINISTER (Mr. Asquith): The Government have not yet come to a definite decision on the matter; but, as

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  at present advised, I hardly think a Royal Commission would be the most suitable form of inquiry.

  Ministerial Changes.
  Mr. KINGasked the Prime Minister whether Cabinet changes are impending; and, if so, whether their nature can be announced?
  The PRIME MINISTER: My Noble Friend, Lord Morley of Blackburn, and my right hon. Friend the Member for Battersea have tendered their resignations, which, with great reluctance, I have felt compelled to accept. My Noble Friend, Lord Beauchamp, has accepted the office of Lord President of the Council, and my right hon. Friend the Member for Dewsbury the Presidency of the Board of Trade. My hon. Friend the Member for the Elland Division has also tendered his resignation, which I have accepted with great regret.

  Parliamentary Session.
  Mr. KINGasked the Prime Minister on what day he expects to bring the present Session to a close?
  The PRIME MINISTER: I fear I cannot yet make a statement on this subject.

  Array Canteens (War Office Committee).
  Sir J. D. REESasked the Secretary of State for War whether he will arrange
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  for the addition of a typical representative of the ordinary private trader to the Army Canteens Committee?
  The PRIME MINISTER: As I stated some time ago, this is being done.
  Sir J. D. REES: May I ask the gentleman's name?
  The PRIME MINISTER: It has already been published.

  State Telephone System.
  Mr. WILESasked the Postmaster-General the net profit resulting from the working of the telephone system by the State as compared with the net profit made by the National Telephone Company?
  Mr. HOBHOUSE: The return of the working of the State telephone system in the year 1912–13 (v. H. of C. Paper No. 94) was 4.85 per cent., namely, 3.38 per cent. interest on capital and 1.47 per cent. net contribution to the Exchequer. The dividend of the National Telephone Company was between 5 and 6 per cent.; in the last five years of their operations the average return on their capital was 5.13 per cent., or about a ¼ per cent. higher than that of the Post Office. This comparison does not take into account on one side the reduced charges to the State telephone undertaking in respect of royalties, Income Tax, and certain wayleaves, and on the other side the vastly increased charges for pay and pensions which are imposed by the State on the undertaking.

WAR IN EUROPE.
  STATEMENT BY PRIME MINISTER.

    Belgian Neutrality Violated by Germany.
    VOTE OF CREDIT, £100,000,000.
    Mr. BONAR LAW: May I ask the Prime Minister if he has any information he can give us to-day?
    The PRIME MINISTER: Our Ambassador at Berlin received his passports at seven o'clock last evening, and since eleven o'clock last night a state of war has existed between Germany and ourselves.
    We have received from our Minister at Brussels the following telegram:
    "I have just received from Minister for Foreign Affairs"—
    that is the Belgian Minister for Foreign Affairs—
    "a note of which the following is a literal translation:
    'Belgian Government regret to have to inform His Majesty's Government that this morning armed forces of Germany penetrated into Belgian territory in violation of engagements assumed by treaty.
    Belgian Government are further resolved to resist by all means in their power.
    Belgium appeals to Great Britain and France and Russia to co-operate, as guarantors, in defence of her territory.
    There would be concerted and common action with the object of resisting the forcible measures employed by Germany against Belgium, and at the same time
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    of guarding the maintenance for future of the independence and integrity of Belgium.
    Belgium is happy to be able to declare that she will assume defence of her fortified places.'"
    We have also received to-day from the French Ambassador here, the following telegram received by the French Government from the French Minister at Brussels:
    "The Chef du Cabinet of the Belgian Ministry of War has asked the French Military Attaché to prepare at once for the co-operation and contact of French troops with the Belgian Army, pending the results of the appeal to the guaranteeing Powers now being made. Orders have therefore been given to Belgian provincial governors not to regard movements of French troops as a violation of the frontier."
    This is all the information I am at the moment able to give to the House, but I take the opportunity of giving notice that to-morrow, in Committee of Supply, I shall move a Vote of Credit of £100,000,000.

  RETURNING BRITISH SUBJECTS (STEAMSHIP ACCOMMODATION).
  Sir HENRY DALZIEL: I should like to ask the Prime Minister whether, having regard to the harrowing scenes which are taking place at Boulogne and Ostend, he would be good enough to look into the matter and see if additional boat accommodation can be provided for British residents anxious to get home'
  The PRIME MINISTER: I will certainly look into the matter.

  POSTAL SERVICES.
  Mr. GINNELL: I beg to ask the Postmaster-General a question of which I have given private notice, namely, whether a postal service for letters and newspapers is being maintained to and from Austria,

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  Italy, Spain, North China, and South China, and in the latter two cases what route should be indicated on the address?
  Mr. HOBHOUSE: Any necessary announcements of these services will be issued by the Post Office in due course.

  AGRICULTURAL HORSES IMPRESSED FOR WAR PURPOSES.
  Mr. CHARLES BATHURSTasked the Secretary of State for War whether farm horses now in use in harvesting cereal crops in England and Wales will be exempted from being impressed for Army requirements?
  Mr. HARRY HOPEasked the Secretary of State for War whether, in view of; the national necessity that crops should be harvested at present, he will take steps that, in requisitioning horses, farmers' horses will as much as possible be exempted?
  The UNDER-SECRETARY of STATE for WAR (Mr. Tennant): It has never been contemplated that farm horses shall be impressed except to a very slight extent, and orders have been issued that they are to be exempted as much as possible.

  NEUTRALITY OF BELGIUM (TREATY).
  Mr. KING: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, a question of which I have given private notice, namely: Whether the Treaty of 1839, which deals with the neutrality of Belgium, has been presented to Parliament, and, if so, when?
  The UNDER-SECRETARY of STATE for FOREIGN AFFAIRS (Mr. Acland): The Treaty and the Annex thereto were laid before Parliament on the 4th August, 1870, Paper Number 278. I am having a translation of the Articles, which deal with the neutrality of Belgium, printed with to-night's Votes. The House will remember, perhaps, that my hon. Friend asked that the Treaty should be printed with the White Paper containing the diplomatic history of the Crisis, which is to be laid as soon as possible. But I was unwilling to
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  delay that Paper, and I hope the House will accept this suggested course, so that the Paper may be published to-night.— [See to-day's Written Answers.]

  BRITISH FISHERMEN OF HIGH SEAS.
  Mr. ROBERT HARCOURT: I beg to ask the representative of the Admiralty a question, of which I have given private notice, namely: Whether British vessels are, to the knowledge of the Admiralty, at the present moment engaged in fishing outside territorial waters; whether it is proposed that His Majesty's ships should afford them protection; and whether he intends to issue any advice as to the future operations of fishermen on the high seas?
  The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the ADMIRALTY (Dr. Macnamara): No special measures have been taken for protection of fishing fleets outside territorial waters, other than advising them, so far as practicable, of dangerous areas. The fishing fleets have therefore been advised to withdraw from the North Sea for the present. The Admiralty is in close touch with the Board of Agriculture and Fisheries on the subject.

  FEEDING-STUFFS.
  Mr. CHARLES BATHURST: I beg to ask the President of the Board of Agriculture a question, of which I have just given him private notice, namely: If he is aware that the present price of meat, and anxiety as to the prospective cost of feeding-stuffs, are inducing some of the smaller stock-owners to slaughter their cows, ewes, and sows; and whether, in view of the importance to the nation under existing circumstances and in view of possible future requirements of maintaining the present head of breeding stock throughout the country, the Government will make forthwith an earnest appeal to all farmers and other stock-owners to refrain from the slaughter of such stock, at the same time reassuring them as to the probable maintenance of an adequate supply of feeding-stuffs at moderate prices?
  The PRESIDENT of the BOARD of AGRICULTURE (Mr. Runciman): Notice of the question which the hon. Gentleman has just put to me I received only a few minutes ago, but I can inform the House that this, amongst other matters affecting food supplies and the supplies of raw materials, has had the continuous attention of the Government, and that we have now quite sufficient information to allay any alarm that may exist, whether amongst farmers or others, and we are taking such steps as we can to inform the farming community that there is no necessity whatever, either at present or prospectively, for the slaughter of their young stock for financial or other reasons.

BILL PRESENTED.
  ILLEGITIMACY BILL.
  "To amend the Law relating to Illegitimacy and to make further and better provision with respect to illegitimate children and their mothers, and for purposes connected with the matters aforesaid." Presented by Dr. CHAPPLE; supported by Sir Albert Spicer, Sir John M'Callum, Sir Robert Price, and Mr. King; to be read a second time To-morrow, and to be printed. [Bill 358.]

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
Ordered, That this day, so soon as the first Order of the Day is read, Mr. Speaker shall put forthwith, with respect to each Class of the Civil Service Estimates, the Question, That this House doth agree with the Committee in all the outstanding Resolutions reported in respect of that Class, and shall then put a like Question with respect to all the Resolutions outstanding in the Estimates for the Navy, the Army, and the Revenue Departments.—[The Prime Minister.]
The CHAIRMAN of WAYS and MEANS (Mr. Whitley): I beg to move, "That any Private Business set down for consideration at a Quarter-past Eight o'clock this day shall, instead of being taken as provided by the Standing Order (Time for taking Private Business), be taken at the conclusion of Government Business, and shall not be interrupted under any Standing Order of the House, and may be entered upon at any time and, for the purposes of the Order of the House of the 17th of July, shall be deemed to be Government Business."
This Motion proposes that private business, instead of being taken at 8.15, as is customary, shall be taken at the end of Government business. For the convenience of the House, I may say that I do not propose to ask the House to consider the third and fourth Bills on the Paper [London County Council (General Powers) Bill; Glasgow Corporation (Celluloid) Bill]. But the first and second [Wesleyan and General Assurance Society Bill; Glasgow Corporation (Tramways, etc.) Bill] are Bills which has gone through Committees of both Houses, and I think the House will wish that the time and labour which has been spent over those Bills
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should not be lost even in present circumstances. I propose to ask the House to consider only those two Bills at present.
Question put, and agreed to.
Ordered, That this House will tomorrow resolve itself into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to His Majesty.
Ordered, That the several Estimates presented this day be referred to the Committee of Supply.
Resolved, That this House will tomorrow resolve itself into a Committee to consider of the Ways and Means for raising the Supply to be granted to His, Majesty.—[Mr. Lloyd George.]

ORDERS OF THE DAY.

  SUPPLY.— [TWENTY-FIRST ALLOTTED DAY]—4th August.
  Order for reception of Report read;
  Whereupon Mr. SPEAKER proceeded, pursuant to the Order of the House of this day, to put forthwith, with respect to each Class of the Civil Services Estimates, the Question, That this House doth agree with the Committee in all the outstanding Resolutions reported in respect of that Class, and then to put a like Question with respect to all the Resolutions outstanding in the Estimates for the Navy, the Army and the Revenue Departments.

  CIVIL SERVICES ESTIMATES AND SUPPLEMENTARY ESTIMATES, 1914–15.
    Class I.
    1. "That a sum not exceeding £2,163,769 be granted to His Majesty to complete the-sum necessary to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending the 31st March, 1915, for expenditure with respect of the Services included in Class I. of the Estimates for the Civil Service."
    Class II.
    2. "That a sum not exceeding £1,919,984 be granted to His Majesty to complete the sum necessary to defray the charges which will come in course of payment during the year ending the 31st March, 1915, for expenditure in respect of the Services included in Class II. of the Estimates of the Civil Service."
    Class III.
    3. "That a sum not exceeding £2,546,529 be granted to His Majesty to complete the sum necessary to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending the 31st March, 1915, for expenditure with respect of the Services included in Class III. of the Estimates for the Civil Service."
    Class IV.
    4. "That a sum not exceeding £12,999,191 be granted to His Majesty to complete the sum necessary to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ended 31st March, 1915, for expenditure in respect of the Services included in Class IV. of the Estimates for the Civil Service."
    Class V.
    5. "That a sum not exceeding £714,903 be granted to His Majesty to complete the sum necessary to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ended 31st March, 1915, for expenditure in respect of the Services included in Class V. of the Estimates for the Civil Service."
    Class VI.
    6. "That a sum not exceeding £487,181 be granted to His Majesty to complete the sum necessary to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ended 31st March, 1915, for expenditure in respect of the Services included in Class VI. of the Estimates for the Civil Service."
    Class VII.
    7. "That a sum not exceeding £14,745,750 be granted to His Majesty to complete the sum necessary to defray the charges which will come in course of payment during the year ended 31st March, 1915, for expenditure in respect of the Services included in Class VII. of the Estimates for the Civil Service."
    NAVY ESTIMATES, 1914–15.
    8. "That a sum not exceeding £32,510,000 be granted to His Majesty to complete the sum necessary to defray the charges which will come in course of payment during the year ended 31st March, 1915, for expenditure in respect of the Services included in the Navy Services."

    ARMY ESTIMATES, 1914–15.
    9. "That a sum not exceeding £13,432,000 be granted to His Majesty to complete the sum necessary to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ended the 31st March, 1915, for expenditure
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    in respect of the Services included in the Army Estimates."

    REVENUE DEPARTMENT ESTIMATES, 1914–15.
    10. "That a sum not exceeding £1,658,876 be granted to His Majesty to complete the sum necessary to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ended the 31st March, 1915, for expenditure in respect of the Services included in the Estimates for the Revenue Department."
    [For details of the foregoing Glasses, see OFFICIAL REPORT, Tuesday, 4th August, 1914, cols. 1939 to 1936.]
    Resolutions agreed to.

  NAVY AND ARMY EXPENDITURE, 1912–13.
  Resolutions reported,
  I. Whereas it appears by the Navy Appropriation Account for the year ended the 31st day of March, 1913, and the statement appended thereto, that the aggregate expenditure on Navy Services has not exceeded the aggregate sums appropriated for those Services, but that, as shown in the Schedule hereto appended, the total differences between the Exchequer Grants for Navy Services and the net expenditure are as follows, namely:—

  £

  s.

  d.

  Total Surpluses

  …

  1,633,210

  5

  5

  Total Deficits

  …

  1,490,979

  2

  5

  Net Surplus

  …

  £142,231

  3

  0

  [For details, see OFFICIAI REPORT, Thursday, 30th July, 1914, cols. 1689–1690.]
  II. Whereas it appears by the Army Appropriation Account for the year ended the 31st day of March, 1913, and the statement appended thereto, that the aggregate expenditure on Army Services has not exceeded the aggregate sums appropriated for those Services, but that, as shown in the Schedule hereto appended, the total differences between the Exchequer Grants for Army Services and the net expenditure are as follows, namely:—

  £

  s.

  d.

  Total Surpluses

  …

  226,766

  5

  3

  Total Deficits

  …

  141,904

  12

  9

  Net Surplus

  …

  £84,861

  12

  6

  [For details, see OFFICIAL REPORT, Thursday, 30th July, 1914, cols. 1691–1692.]
  Resolutions agreed to.

  WAYS AND MEANS.— [4th August]
  Resolution reported, "That towards making good the Supply granted to His Majesty for the Service of the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1915, the sum of £104,642,055 be granted out of the Consolidated Fund of the United Kingdom."
  Resolution agreed to.

  WAYS AND MEANS.— [4th August]
    CONSOLIDATED FUND (APPROPRIATION) BILL.
    Bill ordered to be brought in by the Chairman of Ways and Means, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and Mr. Montagu. Presented accordingly, and read the first time; to be read a second time To-morrow (Thursday), and to be printed. [Bill 356.]

  PRIZE COURTS (PROCEDURE) BILL.
  The ATTORNEY-GENERAL (Sir John Simon): On behalf of the Prime Minister I beg to move, "That leave be given to introduce a Bill to amend the law relating to procedure in Prize Courts."
  This Bill is purely a departmental and uncontroversial Bill. It arises in this way: The rules of procedure in prize proceedings are out of date. Last year a Departmental Committee was appointed in order to revise these rules. That Committee was presided over by the very well-known Admiralty authority, Mr. Butler Aspinall. In accordance with the recommendations of that Committee the new scheme of rules of procedure was drawn up, and the Bill which I now ask leave to introduce enables these rules to be brought into force. The Bill by accident was circulated with the Parliamentary Papers this morning as though it had already been ordered to be printed. The Bill which I now introduce is substantially in the same form, with a provision added merely in order to provide for the application of these new rules to the rules already in force. I have just to add this in order that the House may be under no misapprehension: What we are now proposing does not in the least affect the decision which was announced by my right hon. Friend the First Lord in his speech on the Navy Estimates. He then said:—
  "That the Board of Admiralty had decided to recommend to the Government the abolition of prize money."
  The Government have accepted that recommendation and propose to abide by it, so that it is not proposed to continue the system by which selected individuals in the Naval Service of the Crown are privately
  1986
  enriched in the discharge of the public duties that they perform. As my right hon. Friend pointed out, that decision does not affect another matter. The question of the issue of some Grant or bounty to sailors during the course of the war is a question which is under consideration, and it is safeguarded by the decision which I have announced.
  Question put, and agreed to.
  Bill ordered to be brought in by the Prime Minister, the Attorney-General, and Mr. Churchill. Presented accordingly, and read the first time, and ordered to be printed. [Bill 354.]
  Question, "That the Bill be now read a second time," put, and agreed to.
  Resolved, That this House do immediately resolve itself into a Committee on the Bill.—[Sir John Simon.]
  Bill accordingly considered in Committee and reported without Amendment; read the third time, and passed.

  ALIENS RESTRICTION BILL.
  The SECRETARY of STATE for the HOME DEPARTMENT (Mr. McKenna): I beg to move, "That leave be given to introduce a Bill to enable His Majesty in time of war or imminent national danger or great emergency by Order in Council to impose restrictions on Aliens, and make such provisions as may be necessary or expedient for carrying such restrictions into effect."
  One of the main objects of the Bill is to remove of restrain the movements of undesirable aliens, especially with a view to the removal or detention of spies. Information in the possession of the Government proves that cases of espionage have been frequent in recent years, and many spies have been caught and dealt with by the police. Within the last twenty-four hours no fewer than twenty-one spies, or suspected spies, have been arrested in various places all over the country, chiefly in important military or naval centres, some of them long known to the authorities to be spies. The arrangements contemplated by the Order have been designed with a view to cause as little inconvenience as possible to alien friends, while leaving effective control over dangerous enemy aliens.
  Question put, and agreed to.
  Bill ordered to be brought in by the Prime Minister and Mr. McKenna. Presented accordingly, read the first time, and ordered to be printed. [Bill 355.]
  Resolved, That this House will immediately resolve itself into a Committee on the Bill.—[Mr. McKenna.]
  Bill accordingly considered in Committee.
  [Mr. WHITLEY in the Chair.]
  Mr. BARNES: May I ask if the terms of the operative Clause can be read from the Chair?
  Mr. WHITLEY: It is as follows:—

  ALIENS RESTRICTION BILL.

    CLAVSE 1.—(Powers with respect to Aliens in Case of National Emergency).
    (1) His Majesty may at any time when a state of war exists between His Majesty and any foreign power, or when it appears that an occasion of imminent national danger or great emergency has arisen, by Order in Council impose restrictions on aliens, and provision may be made by the Order:—

    (a) for prohibiting aliens from landing in the United Kingdom, either generally or at certain places, and for imposing restrictions or conditions on aliens landing or arriving at any port in the United Kingdom; and

    (b) for prohibiting aliens from embarking in the United Kingdom, either generally or at certain places and for imposing restrictions and conditions on aliens embarking or about to embark in the United Kingdom; and

    (c) for the deportation of aliens from the United Kingdom; and

    (d) for requiring aliens to reside and remain within certain places or districts; and

    (e) for prohibiting aliens from residing or remaining in any areas specified in the Order; and

    (f) for requiring aliens residing in the United Kingdom to comply with such provisions as to registration, change of abode, travelling, or otherwise as may be made by the Order; and

    (g) for the appointment of officers to carry the Order into effect, and for
    1988
    conferring on such officers and on the Secretary of State such powers as may be necessary or expedient for the purposes of the Order; and

    (h) for imposing penalties on persons who aid or abet any contravention of the Order, and for imposing such obligations and restrictions on masters of ships or any other persons specified in the Order as appear necessary or expedient for giving full effect to the Order; and

    (i) for conferring upon such persons as may be specified in the Order such powers with respect to arrest, detention, search of premises or persons, and otherwise, as may be specified in the Order, and for any other ancillary matters for which it appears expedient to provide with a view to giving full effect to the Order; and

    (k) for any other matters which appear necessary or expedient with a view to the safety of the realm.

    (2) If any person acts in contravention of or fails to comply with any provisions of any such Order, he shall be liable on conviction under the Summary Jurisdiction Acts to a fine not exceeding one hundred pounds or to imprisonment with or without hard labour for a term not exceeding six months, and the Court before which he is convicted may, either in addition to or in lieu of any such punishment, require that person to enter into recognisances with or without sureties to comply with the provisions of the Order in Council or such provisions thereof as the Court may direct.
    If any person fails to comply with an Order of the Court requiring him to enter into recognisances the Court or any Court of summary jurisdiction sitting for the same place may order him to be imprisoned with or without hard labour for any term not exceeding six months.
    (3) Any provision of any Order in Council made under this Section with respect to aliens may relate either to aliens in general or to any class or description of aliens.
    (4) If any question arises on any proceedings under any such Order, or with reference to anything done or proposed to be done under any such Order, whether any person is an alien or not, or is an alien of a particular class or not, the onus of

    1989
    proving that that person is not an alien, or, as the case may be, is not an alien of that class, shall lie upon that person.
    (5) His Majesty may by Order in Council revoke, alter, or add to any Order in Council made under this Section as occasion requires.
    (6) Any powers given under this Section, or under any Order in Council made under this Section, shall be in addition to, and not in derogation of, any other powers with respect to the expulsion of aliens, or the prohibition of aliens from entering the United Kingdom or any other powers of His Majesty.
    Mr. HOLT: Is it quite clear that the Home Secretary can make different regulations with regard to aliens of different nationalities?
    Mr. McKENNA: Yes, Sir, that is quite clear, and it is the object of the Bill to draw a distinction between alien friends and alien enemies.
    Lord CHARLES BERESFORD: Is it decreed that these aliens are to come out after six months? War might not be over and they might give an immense amount of information.
    Mr. McKENNA: We can always expel them.
    Mr. KING: As one acquainted with many German subjects, some of whom have been resident in this country for many-years, and are much more British in sentiment than German, I should like some assuring words from the Home Secretary that some regard will be had for those persons. There is a very great deal of apprehension amongst such persons at the present time, and I think a few words from the Home Secretary would be very useful.
    Mr. McKENNA: Alien enemies against whom there is no reason whatever to suppose that they are secretly engaged in operations against this country will be subjected to nothing further than registration and the provision that they may not live in the prohibited areas.
    Mr. JOYCE: I want to ask a question of the Home Secretary with regard to this Bill—namely, whether attention will, at this time, be given to the question of alien pilotage. I think this is a most important question. I want to know whether the Government will give particular attention to this question with a view of preventing alien pilots from gaining a knowledge of the estuaries and ports of this country.
    The CHAIRMAN: I do not think that question arises on this Bill.
    Mr. McKENNA: No, it does not arise.
    Question, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill," put, and agreed to.
    Mr. JOYCE: I beg to give notice that I shall put a question to the Prime Minister on this subject to-morrow.
    Bill reported without Amendment.
    Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read the third time."
    Sir WILLIAM BYLES: Although I recognise that this is a time of great crisis and emergency, yet I suggest to the House that by this measure we are putting a very dangerous power into the hands of the Home Secretary. [An HON. MEMBER: "Sit down."] I think the House would be well advised to act seriously in passing the Third Reading of this measure. I rise to ask whether there is any duration mentioned in the Bill, and whether the power which is given under it endures until the House of Commons takes it away again. [An HON. MEMBER: "During the war."] I think we ought to know this in giving such exceptional powers to a single Minister, because we may not always have the present Minister dealing with it, and therefore we ought to safeguard the duration of this power in some way.
    Mr. RONALD M'NEILL: Owing to the circumstances under which this measure is introduced we do not really know the terms of the various Clauses, and I should like to ask if we are to understand that this Bill is primarily meant for dealing with spies in time of war. If that is so, I want to know whether there is any power taken to shoot spies, and, if not, why not?
    Mr. McKENNA: That would not come under this Bill. This measure applies only to a state of war existing between this country and a foreign power when a grave national danger or grave emergency has arisen. Under those circumstances this Bill provides for certain things, and the measure prescribes the limits of the Order in Council which may be issued. The Order would cease to have effect as soon as the war has ceased or a state of national danger or grave emergency no longer exists.
    Question put, and agreed to.
    Bill read the third time, and passed.

WAR IN EUROPE.

  STATE FINANCIAL PROVISIONS.
  The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER (Mr. Lloyd George): I beg to move, "That the House do now adjourn." I submit this Motion with a view to make the statement which I promised yesterday.
  Sir A. MARKHAM: Before the right hon. Gentleman proceeds with this Motion, may I ask you, Mr. Speaker, whether we shall be limited to half an hour's discussion?
  Mr. SPEAKER: That only applies after Government business has been disposed of.
  Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: I propose to withdraw my Motion after the conversations on this subject come to an end. Owing to the remarkable and quite unprecedented financial situation created by the events of the past few weeks, I deemed it to be my duty to summon conferences of the leading bankers and merchants and manufacturers of this Kingdom at the Treasury in order to confer as to the best way to meet it. The emergency is purely a temporary one, due to temporary causes and due very largely to the interruption of the flow of remittances from abroad, which are necessary in order to enable the discount market to meet its liabilities. There is no failure of credit, and I think it is a matter of overwhelming importance that that fact should be thoroughly realised. There was no failure of machinery, but there was a temporary stoppage of machinery, and that is all that occurred. It was just a temporary dislocation of machinery which might have caused very great inconvenience, and might undoubtedly have led to financial collapse in certain cases if it had not been dealt with promptly. I have had a number of conferences at the Treasury, and I am very glad to be able to say that the right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Birmingham (Mr. Austen Chamberlain), at the invitation of the Prime Minister and myself,
  1992
  has taken part in those conferences, and his assistance and advice has been invaluable. The conferences are not quite over and, therefore, I am not in a position to state the whole of the arrangements which are likely to be come to because there is a good deal of work still to be done.
  I thought, however, that the House would like to know some of the decisions at which we have arrived. We had already taken steps in anticipation of a possible emergency to suspend the Bank Act, in order to enable the bankers to secure an adequate supply of notes. We came to the conclusion, after very careful consideration—I am proud to say with the unanimous assent of every interest—that it was not necessary to suspend specie payments, and that we were able to meet the emergency without in the slightest degree interfering with our present basis. But at the same time we thought it desirable to make arrangements with a view to economising the supply of gold. There was a danger that individuals—I am sorry to say that that was a peril which the bankers had good reason to anticipate after what happened on Friday—might selfishly attempt to hoard gold in order, conceivably, to put themselves in a better position than their neighbours. I think it is vital that it should be made clear to those individuals, and to the nation at large, that any man who does that is inflicting a great injury on his fellows. In this tremendous struggle finance is going to play a great part. It will be one of the most formidable weapons in this exhausting war, and anyone who, from selfish motives of greed or from excessive caution or cowardice, goes out of his way to attempt to withdraw sums of gold and appropriate them to his own use—let it be clearly understood that he is assisting the enemies of his native land, and he is assisting them more effectively probably than if he were to take up arms. Perhaps it will be an additional inducement to him not to do so if he knows that he will not benefit himself in the end. This is of enormous importance, with a view to what will happen when the banks open on Friday.

  1993
  We must appeal to the patriotism of every citizen in this land. Every man, not merely the armed forces of the Crown, but every citizen as well, must assist to carry the country through this terrible emergency. Everyone knows that the difficulty during the last few days has been that your £5 notes are not convertible. You cannot induce anybody to take them, unless the bill is represented by £5. You get no change, and the result is, undoubtedly, a very great inconvenience to the public. With a view to effecting an economy of gold without causing any inconvenience to the public, whilst at the same time maintaining the gold standard here in its integrity—because after all we have got to think of what will happen after the war—we have got to maintain the credit of this country, which has been due to a very large extent to the fact that this has been the free market for gold in the world—we propose to issue £1 notes and notes for 10s., convertible into gold at the Bank of England. They will be available on Friday morning. Of course, it is a process that takes some time. The machinery for the purpose is a very limited one. You have got to print them on a certain type of paper, and it may well be that on Friday morning we shall not have a sufficient supply, but we shall be able to turn them out on Friday morning. We hope then to have about £3,000,000 ready, and after that we shall be turning them out at the rate of about £5,000,000 a day until there is a sufficient supply. We came to the conclusion, after a very anxious discussion, that on the whole it had better be a Government note on the security of the Government, for reasons I need not enter into at the present moment. I need hardly say that there are arguments on both sides, but on the whole we came to the conclusion that it was better to make it a Government note, with, of course, Government security, and convertible into gold at the Bank of England. At the same time I hope it will not be converted. As these notes may not be available in sufficient number by Friday morning, it is proposed to make postal orders legal tender on the same terms. They will be convertible
  1994
  into gold at the Bank of England. [An HON. MEMBER: "What about the Post Office? "] They will be convertible at the Post Office in the ordinary course of business. At the same time, you do not want to draw a postal order at one counter and then go to the next and ask for gold. That certainly would not be economising gold.
  Mr. MARSHALL HALL: Does the right hon. Gentleman propose to charge poundage on the £1 note?
  Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: No. Anyone, for instance, drawing from a savings bank, instead of getting £5 notes or gold, will get these postal orders.
  Lord HUGH CECIL: Will these postal orders be distinguishable from others?
  Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: No, it is really in order to meet the difficulties of printing. It is not proposed that they should be part of the permanent arrangement. We cannot by Friday morning, as a physical process, have an adequate supply of £1 notes, and therefore we have got to think of another sort of Government document that can be used for the moment as a substitute. There are about £2,000,000 of these bank notes—
  Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: There are the small notes.
  Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: I am much obliged to the right hon. Gentleman. With the small notes, there are about £4,000,000. They will be of very great convenience to the public, but I hope they will be withdrawn after a short time, when we are able to establish our system of £1 notes. There is another very important decision which was taken. I am very glad that the Bank of England have found themselves in a position to say that they can reduce, as from Friday next, the Bank Kate from 10 per cent. to 6 per cent. After the fullest investigation, they feel confident of their strength to be able to get through this emergency without this abnormal Bank Rate. That will assist the business community very considerably. On Monday we issued a Proclamation for a limited moratorium. It was limited because we

  1995
  had to deal with one special emergency which had arisen on Tuesday morning in the bill market. We took full powers for a wider moratorium, but we had to issue that one, so as to give notice in time that on Tuesday morning the bill market would be relieved of its very great anxiety. It was not intended to be the final form of the Proclamation. It is generally felt by-traders, as well as by the banks, that the moratorium ought to be more extended; otherwise you will be relieving a certain section of the community of their liability to discharge their debts for the time being, whilst at the same time people who are depending upon them to meet their debts will be left in a difficulty. Of course it is quite obvious that there must be exceptions to that moratorium. The Government must be an exception. The Government must discharge its debts—old age pensions, insurance, and liabilities of that kind. Wages, of course, must be paid. [HON. MEMBERS: "Rent"?] That is one of the topics under discussion at the present time.
  Mr. WATSON RUTHERFORD: What about taxes?
  Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: I would rather these things were not entered into at the present time, because we have not quite come to a conclusion at the conference we are holding upon the extent of the limit of the exceptions. It is felt that the moratorium ought to be for a month, and that will leave ample margin to enable trade to adapt itself to its present conditions, and to resume its ordinary course. Of course, it is only in respect of debts contracted before the moratorium. Everybody will realise that. Bills, cheques and drafts, presented at the Clearing House, will be dealt with as usual, subject to a discretion to be used in exceptional cases. Crossed cheques, therefore, should be used in the ordinary way wherever possible.
  I will point out what that means. It means that the bankers consider themselves in a position to resume the ordinary normal course of business, but when they say that they must have discretion in exceptional cases, with regard to cheques
  1996
  passing through the Clearing House, it means that it must not be used for the purpose really of defeating the moratorium by passing cheques through the Clearing House in order to be able to withdraw an exceptional amount of gold, or for some purposes of that kind. Any ordinary transaction that would have taken place if we had not had the present condition of things—that kind of transaction will be treated in exactly the same way as it used to be before the present moratorium. They feel themselves in a position to do so. The bankers are making arrangements whereby cash and legal tender will be available for wages, salaries and the normal cash requirements of daily life. These decisions are taken with a view of restoring the normal in business as quickly as possible, and the bankers and traders are all confident that if these steps are taken, as they will be taken on Friday morning, with the patriotic assistance of the public, because that is really essential, business will be resumed on Friday morning; and, what is so very important, there will not be the necessity which otherwise might arise for closing mills and factories and throwing hundreds of thousands out of work. So far has the decsion been taken. There are a few more decisions which will have to be taken, and it will be necessary for me—perhaps to-morrow—to introduce a Bill with regard to the issue of the notes, and one or two other matters which may be decided upon in the course of the afternoon's discussion. At the same time I think it desirable the public should know, at the earliest possible moment, the steps that are being taken.
  Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: I hope the House will permit me to say a few words. I had, I need scarcely say, no hesitation in accepting the invitation of the Prime Minister and the Chancellor of the Exchequer to co-operate with the Chancellor of the Exchequer in this action, and I need scarcely say also that my action in so doing had the full approval of my Leader and of my colleagues. I think a satisfactory feature of the conferences which, under these circumstances, I have attended, has been the exhibition of a common desire on all sides to meet the

  1997
  present emergency with the least possible disturbance, and the least inconvenience possible to all the different interests concerned. I can say, as the Chancellor of the Exchequer has said, that the Bank of England, the great Joint Stock Banks, and the other financial and trading interests are working together, and that the decision which he announced are the result of their common deliberation, and are what they all believe to be the best in the present circumstances. No doubt there is a certain difficulty, a certain anxiety in the mind of many members of the public today, and especially of the smaller public, quite apart from the very big interests affected, arising out of the shortness of currency, and especially of small currency. The steps that have been taken will rapidly place a large supply of additional currency and of small currency at the service of the public. They need not, therefore, be under any anxiety lest they should be embarrassed by a shortness of supply, and under these circumstances I am sure that we can count on them in their own interest, as well as because it is their duty to the nation, to co-operate with the great traders and with the great banking interests to facilitate the measures which the Government and those interested are taking, and carry on business as far as may be in the normal and usual way—without panic, without excitement, and without undue anxiety.
  I am perfectly confident, if the public keeps its head, the public will be safe. If all of us go about our affairs in the normal way, asking no more than is required to carry on our normal business, all will get what they want. But if in any quarter panic is encouraged, either by selfishness or greed, it might produce difficulties in other quarters, reacting in the end, if those difficulties arise, with as much force on the original offenders as on any of those on whom they will have brought suffering. I want to make one appeal to the House if I may make it. I confess it may be said I am not in a position to make it, because I have sat with the Chancellor of the Exchequer yesterday and to-day, and have taken part in his deliberations. But I submit to the House that the Chancellor of the Exchequer has made a statement of broad principles and of the main methods by which it is proposed to deal with this crisis, and I appeal to the House, as all the details cannot and have not been settled yet, to avoid discussing them as far as possible, and to refrain from asking questions
  1998
  which will be fully answered in due time, but which it might be difficult to meet in full at the present moment.
  Sir GEORGE YOUNGER: I rise to ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he is in a position to say if the Scottish banking question has been considered, and if the bankers of Scotland have been granted powers in regard to the issue of the new notes?
  Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: We could not consider a pecuniary question without giving some thought to Scotland. We are considering the question of Scottish bank notes. Perhaps I had better not say more at the present moment. But the Treasury have their own views, and I think those are the views of the traders, but we have not yet placed the matter before the bankers, and perhaps it would be better not to make any announcement. I think the hon. Gentleman will find, however, that it will be perfectly satisfactory to every patriotic Scotsman. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Birmingham has suggested that I should intimate that we are coining additional silver.
  4.0 P.M.
  Sir THOMAS ESMONDE: In banking matters Ireland and Scotland occupy very much similar positions. I believe the right hon. Gentleman is considering the position of banks in Ireland. Some slight modifications may be necessary in their case. We are extremely pleased to hear from him that the general financial position is very satisfactory. So far as the Irish people are concerned, I think they may be trusted to keep their heads in the matter. We have all to keep our heads, and we propose to do so in Ireland. My only reason for speaking at all is that I know the right hon. Gentleman has been consulting the representatives of the Irish banks, and it would satisfy those gentlemen if he were to say now that their representations were receiving his attention and that they would be dealt with to-morrow.
  Mr. C. E. PRICE: I would ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer to take into consideration the desirability that traders shall not sue for a debt in cases where a man presents a bank note or cheque in payment. A case has come to my notice where a trader demanded payment in cash for an account of £20. It would be a very great hardship if traders were to refuse legal tender at the present time.
  Sir A. MARKHAM: I desire to ask whether the Government have not the power, with the consent of the House, to have the speech of the Chancellor of the Exchequer and that of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Birmingham (Mr. Chamberlain) circulated in every town in the country. This is a matter of vital importance, and I do not think the country, or the ordinary man in the street, appreciates the importance of not hoarding gold. That should be brought home to everyone in the country. The Press have not given anything like the notice to this matter that they might have done. If the Government have that power, will they exercise it?
  Mr. J. W. WILSON: In strongly supporting the appeal just made, may I also ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer to emphasise a remark which fell from him, which was not very distinct, with regard to the use of crossed cheques. I think a number of people who use crossed cheques nowadays do not appreciate that in paying an ordinary account with a tradesman or business person who has a bank that if they cross the cheque they cannot immediately demand cash in exchange for it. That will exercise some check on the amount of gold that is demanded. A person will have to draw his own cheque in order to get some more out.
  Mr. ROBERT HARCOURT: In making a general reply, will the Chancellor of the Exchequer make it absolutely clear that poundage on postal orders is not to be charged, and that if a man tenders a £5 note for the purpose of getting change and receives five £1 postal orders, he will not have to pay the poundage on the postal orders?
  Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: That is so.
  Mr. KING: I venture to make a suggestion on the lines followed by the last two speakers. Could not the Chancellor of the Exchequer circulate through all the post offices in the Kingdom some notice indicating the nature of these arrangements, and, if possible, include a photographic representation of these new notes? [HON. MEMBERS: "Sit down!"] A great number of people, when they first use these notes, will probably hand them back and ask for cash. If some means were taken to inform the public of these notes it would assist them.
  Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: I have a specimen of the notes here: it is not a very pretty picture, because it is the first proof. I can assure the hon. Gentleman opposite (Sir Thomas Esmonde) that the question of the Bank of Ireland is being considered. There is only one special difficulty there, which, I think, can be surmounted with very great ease. That is a question on which we have not yet come to a decision. I have no doubt it can be settled in twenty-four hours, and probably I shall be able to make an announcement to-morrow. As to the-crossing of cheques, I am very much obliged to my right hon. Friend (Mr. J. W. Wilson) for calling attention to it. I have no doubt at all that the observations he made will be reported. They will be a very useful contribution to what has been stated. With regard to poundage for the-purposes indicated by my hon. Friend (Mr. Robert Harcourt), there will be no poundage at all, because it will be legal tender. The hon. Baronet (Sir A. Mark-ham) suggested that the Press might be used to call attention to the dangers of hoarding gold from a national point of view. I hope notice will be taken of what he has said. The action of the Press would be exceedingly helpful to the Government if they took special notice of that point. The gold supply is adequate and sufficient. As a matter of fact it is still coming in. We have substantial consignments which I have no doubt will reach these shores before very long. I have not the faintest doubt on that head. I think there will be a continual flow, but at the same time we must give this assistance to the public. I can assure him that the Press would afford enormous assistance to us in calling the-attention of every individual throughout the country to the danger of hoarding gold at the present moment. I agree with the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Chamberlain) that this is not quite the moment to press-questions such as those of my hon. Friend with regard to the details of the moratorium which are still under discussion. Any suggestion he can make I shall be very glad to bring to the notice of the Conference. I shall be better able to give an answer to the questions to-morrow.
  Mr. WATSON RUTHERFORD: What about taxes? [HON. MEMBERS: "Pay them!"]
  Motion for Adjournment, by leave, with drawn.

ANGLO-PERSIAN OIL COMPANY (ACQUISITION OF CAPITAL) BILL.
Order for Third Reading read.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read the third time."
Mr. GRETTON: I do not want to delay the House, but I want to ask one question on finance. It is proposed to issue out of the Consolidated Fund £2,200,000. Does the present situation justify that issue?
The FINANCIAL SECRETARY to the TREASURY (Mr. Montagu): It was very difficult to hear what the hon. Member said because of the disturbance in the House. The Bill is being put through in pursuance of an agreement which has already been made and assented to by the Resolution passed by the House. There is nothing in the situation which would justify us in withdrawing from our obligation made with the consent of Parliament.
Question put, and agreed to; Bill read the third time, and passed.

ISLE OF MAN (CUSTOMS) BILL.
Considered in Committee, and reported without Amendment; read the third time, and passed.

PUBLIC WORKS LOANS (REMISSION OF DEBTS).
Considered in Committee.
Resolved, "That it is expedient to authorise the remission of arrears of principal and interest due to the Public Works Loan Commissioners in respect of Eyemouth Harbour, in pursuance of any Act of the present Session relating to local loans."
King's Recommendation to be signified.
Resolution to be reported to-morrow (Thursday).

EDUCATION (PROVISION OF MEALS) (IRELAND) BILL.
Read a second time and committed to a Committee of the Whole House for Tomorrow.—[Mr. Gulland.]

METROPOLITAN POLICE (EMPLOYMENT IN SCOTLAND) (No. 2) BILL.
Considered in Committee.
Captain JESSEL: Can we have some explanation of this Bill?
Mr. GEORGE LAMBERT (Civil Lord of the Admiralty): This Bill will enable the Metropolitan Police to be employed in guarding any naval base in Scotland in the same way as they are employed in England.
Bill reported without Amendment; read the third time, and passed.

COUNTY TOWN AND PARISH COUNCILS (QUALIFICATION) (SCOTLAND) BILL.
Not amended (in the Standing Committee), considered; read the third time, and passed.
ENTAILS (SCOTLAND) BILL.
As amended (in the Standing Committee), considered; read the third time, and passed.
FEUDAL CASUALTIES (SCOTLAND) BILL.
Not amended (in the Standing Committee), considered; read the third time, and passed.
MILK AND DAIRIES (SCOTLAND) BILL.
As amended (in the Standing Committee), considered.
MILK AND DAIRIES (SCOTLAND) BILL.

  CLAUSE 1.—(Extent and Commencement of Act.)
  This Act shall extend to Scotland only,-and shall come into operation on the first day of January one thousand nine hundred and fifteen.
  Major HOPE: I beg to move, at end of Clause, to add the words, "or such later date, not being later than the first day of October, one thousand nine hundred and fifteen, as the Local Government Board for Scotland may appoint."
  The SECRETARY for SCOTLAND (Mr. McKinnon Wood): I am prepared to accept the Amendment. It is purely optional. It

  2003
  leaves it to the discretion of the Local Government Board, and under present circumstances that might be useful.
  Question, "That those words be there added," put, and agreed to.

  CLAUSE 2.—(Definition.)
  Expressions used in this Act shall (unless such meaning is inconsistent with the context) have the meanings assigned to them in the Public Health (Scotland) Act, 1897, and subject to the following modifications: the word "dairy" shall include any creamery, farm, farmhouse, cowshed, byre, milk store, milk shop, or other premises from which milk is sold or supplied for sale or in which it is kept for purposes of sale, or which are used for the making of butter, cheese, or other milk products for human consumption for purposes of sale; the word "dairyman" shall include any occupier of a dairy and any person carrying on the trade of cowkeeper or purveyor of milk or maker of butter or cheese or other milk products for human consumption for purposes of sale, but shall not include a person who sells milk only in small quantities and for their own consumption to persons in his employment, or to neighbours, and if any question shall arise as to whether a dairy is entitled to exemption under this provision such question shall be determined by the Board, whose decision shall be final; and the word "milk" shall include cream, skimmed milk, separated milk, and butter milk.
  Amendments made: Leave out the word "and" ["and subject to the following modifications "].
  After the word "following" insert the words "additions and."
  After the word "sale" ["human consumption for purposes of sale"], insert the words "but shall not include premises from which a person sells milk only in small quantities and for their own consumption to persons in his employment or to neighbours."
  After the word "dairy" ["whether a dairy is entitled"], insert the words "or dairyman."
  After the word "by" ["shall be determined by the Board"], insert the words "the Local Government Board for Scotland, hereinafter referred to as."—[Mr. McKinnon Wood.]

  CLAUSE 3.—(Appointment of Veterinary Inspector.)
  Every local authority may, and when required by the Local Government Board for Scotland (hereinafter referred to as the Board) shall, appoint a member of the Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons to act as veterinary inspector under this Act, and shall pay to such inspector a salary approved by the Board, and the name and address and salary of such inspector shall be reported by the local authority to the Board immediately on his appointment. A veterinary inspector so appointed shall not engage in private practice in any district in which he holds office save with the consent of the Board. Two or more local authorities may, and if required by the Board shall, combine in appointing a veterinary inspector. No veterinary inspector appointed by the local authority under this Act shall be removable from office, except by or with the sanction of the Board. A veterinary inspector shall, if required by the local authority, nominate a duly qualified substitute, for whom he shall be responsible, and if the local authority shall approve of the nomination, such substitute shall, in the illness or absence of the veterinary inspector, have the same powers and duties as the veterinary inspector under this Act; and the local authority may at any time, with the consent of the Board, withdraw their approval of such substitute, and may require the veterinary inspector to name for their approval some other duly qualified substitute, and the local authority shall report to the Board the name and address of any substitute nominated and approved under this Section. A local authority shall, with a view to carrying on the work pertaining to the office during the period between the resignation or death of a veterinary inspector and the appointment of a successor have power to make an ad interim appointment for such period as the Board may approve. In districts where a veterinary inspector is not appointed in terms of this Section the duties laid on a veterinary inspector under this Act shall be performed by a veterinary surgeon approved by the local authority in terms of Section forty-three of the Public Health (Scotland) Act, 1897. Where a veterinary inspector is appointed in terms of this Section, references in Section 43 of the Public Health (Scotland) Act, 1897, to a veterinary surgeon shall be construed as references to the veterinary inspector so appointed. The local authority

  2005
  shall, subject to the approval of the Board, regulate the duties, for the purposes of this Act, of the veterinary inspector or veterinary surgeon as aforesaid, and his relations to the other officers of the local authority. A local authority may make arrangements for the bacteriological or other examination of specimens and samples taken for the purposes of this Act, Where the county council of a county appoint a veterinary inspector, being a member of the Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons, under the Diseases of Animals Acts or any other Act which they administer, the person so appointed may, and if required by the Local Government Board shall, where the local authority is a district committee of the county council, be appointed the veterinary inspector under this Act within that district, and in that event the provisions of Subsections (2) and (3) of Section fifty-two of the Local Government (Scotland) Act, 1889, shall apply. In the application of the said Sub-section the expression "county medical officer," or "county sanitary inspector," shall be construed to mean "county veterinary inspector."
  Amendment made: Leave out the words "Local Government Board for Scotland {hereinafter referred to as the Board)" and insert instead thereof the word "Board."—[Mr. McKinnon Wood.]
  Major HOPE: I beg to move to leave out the words "a member" ["a member of the Royal College"], and insert instead thereof the words "one or more members."
  Mr. McKINNON WOOD: I accept.
  Mr. HOGGE: It, is only fair that we should exactly understand what this is.
  Mr. McKINNON WOOD: This is a very simple Amendment. It will allow the local authority to appoint two members instead of one.
  Amendment agreed to.
  Further Amendments made:
  After the word "inspector" ["act as veterinary inspector"], insert the words "or inspectors."
  After the word "inspector" ["shall pay to such inspector"], insert the words "or inspectors."
  After the word "inspector" ["and salary of such inspector"], insert the words "or inspectors."—[Major Hope.]
  Leave out the words,
  "A local authority may make arrangements for the bacteriological or other examination of specimens and samples taken for the purposes of this Act."
  At end of Clause add the words,
  "(2) A local authority may make-arrangements for the bacteriological or other examination of specimens and samples taken for the purposes of this Act."—[Mr. McKinnon Wood.]

  CLAUSE 7.—(Registration of Dairies.)
  (11) With respect to the granting of certificates of registration in the year nineteen hundred and fifteen the following provisions shall take effect (that is to say):—

  (a) A person carrying on the trade of dairyman without a certificate of registration under this Section shall not be guilty of an offence thereunder prior to the twenty-eighth day of May, nineteen hundred and fifteen;

  (b) An application for a certificate of registration may be lodged with the local authority at any time after the passing of this Act, and the local authority shall immediately after receiving such application have power to obtain the necessary reports on the premises of the applicant, provided that any such application lodged before the first day of January, nineteen hundred and fifteen, shall, for the purposes of this Section, be deemed to have been lodged on that day, and the local authority shall not be bound to intimate their decision to the applicant within a less period than three months after that day.

  Amendment made: In Sub-section (1), paragraph (a), at end add the words, "or such later date as the Board may by order appoint,"—[Mr. Watson.]

  CLAUSE 8.—(Dairy By-laws.)
  (1) It shall be the duty of every local authority, as soon as may be after the passing of this Act, to make by-laws for their district providing—

  (a) for the inspection of cattle in dairies;

  (b) for prescribing and regulating the structure, lighting, ventilation (including air and floor space), cleansing, drainage, washing, and scalding facilities, and water supplies of dairies and their appurtenants;

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  (c) for the prevention of impurities in milk intended for human consumption and for securing the cleanliness and health of the cows and the cleanliness of the persons and clothing of those engaged or assisting in the business, and of the milk, cows, dairies, sculleries, boiler-houses, and all utensils, vehicles, and vessels used for the reception, conveyance, storage, or sale of milk;

  (d) for prescribing precautions to be taken by dairymen against infection or contamination.

  Such by-laws shall apply to all dairies whether constructed before or after the passing of this Act, but by-laws under paragraph (b) of this Sub-section may, if the Board so require or allow, differentiate between such dairies as regards structure, lighting, ventilation (including air and floor space), and drainage, and shall not be applicable to dairies where the dairyman sells milk only in small quantities and for their own consumption to persons in his employment or to neighbours, and if any question shall arise as to whether a dairy is entitled to exemption under this provision, such question shall be determined by the Board, whose decision shall be final.
  (2) The provisions of Sections one hundred and eighty-three to one hundred and eighty-seven inclusive of the Public Health (Scotland) Act, 1897, as to by-laws shall apply in the case of by-laws made or to be made under this Section subject to the following modifications, namely:—

  (a) The Board shall before confirming any such by-laws, consult with the Board of Agriculture for Scotland;

  (b) The clerk shall furnish, on application, a copy of proposed by-laws, free of charge, to any dairyman within the district to which it is proposed that the same shall apply.

  Any Regulations made by the local authority under the Dairies, Cowsheds, and Milkshops Orders of 1885, 1887, and 1899, shall continue in force until the date on which by-laws made by the local authority under this Section take effect, but thereafter shall cease to have force or effect.
  Amendment made: Leave out the words, "and shall not be applicable to dairies where the dairyman sells milk only in small quantities and for their own consumption to persons in his employment or
  2008
  to neighbours, and if any question shall arise as to whether a dairy is entitled to exemption under this provision, such question shall be determined by the Board, whose decision shall be final."—[Mr. McKinnon Wood.]
  Major HOPE: I beg to move, in Subsection (2), paragraph (a), to leave out the words "consult with," and insert instead thereof the words "obtain the concurrence of."
  Mr. HOGGE: The Scottish Members of the Committee objected very strongly to this Amendment, and it was defeated. After all, the Secretary for Scotland is the head of the Board of Agriculture, and he would require to be consulted in every case, and it seems to us unnecessary to duplicate the work in that respect. It is scarcely fair to have this Amendment thrown at us again without having the Bill or even the Amendments in our hands. We did not know that this was being taken this afternoon, and none of us have the Amendments from the Vote Office. It is slightly unfair that we are not able to discuss this point when it was defeated by the majority of Scottish Members. Surely we ought to have some statement from the Scottish Secretary as to why he has accepted this. He ought to be fair to the majority of the Committee, and explain why he has altered his view.
  Mr. McKINNON WOOD: It is very reasonable that my hon. Friend should ask me to explain why I have not altered my view but accepted this as part of an arrangement or compromise. Though I think the words which appeared in the Bill originally are the better form, practically it makes very little difference whether you have one form or the other, and if my hon. Friend does not make a great point of that I hope he will agree that we may make this concession to those who have made concession to us on other points.
  Admendment agreed to.

  CLAUSE 12.—(Regulations by Board.)
  (1) The Board shall make Regulations under the Public Health (Regulations as to Food) Act, 1907, for the prevention of danger arising to public health from the importation of milk intended for sale for human consumption.
  (2) The Board, after consultation with the Board of Agriculture for Scotland, may from time to time make such general

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  or special orders as they think fit for carrying this Act into effect, including orders for the following purposes or any of them:—

  (a) The measures to be taken for cooling milk and otherwise for protecting milk against infection or contamination.

  Major HOPE: I beg to move, in Subsection (1), after the word "milk" ["for the importation of milk"], to insert the words "butter, cheese, or other milk products."
  Mr. McKINNON WOOD: Words to the same effect are in the English Bill. I am not suggesting that we should follow the English Bill precisely—indeed, we are not doing so—still they have some force in showing that similar words should be inserted in the Scottish Bill. In the English Bill the words are "or other market products." Under the circumstances, I do not propose to resist this Amendment.
  Amendment agreed to.
  Further Amendment made: In Subsection (2), leave out the words "after consultation with," and insert instead thereof the words "with the concurrence of."—[Mr. Watson.]

  CLAUSE 18.—(Procedure for the Stoppage of Milk Supplies.)
  (7) It shall be open to any local authority or dairyman aggrieved by any such resolution or order, or withdrawal of order, or by the failure to make such an order, to appeal in a summary manner to a sheriff having jurisdiction in the district within which the dairy is situated, and the sheriff may either make an order requiring the dairyman to cease from supplying milk, or may vary or rescind any order which has been made by the local authority, and he may at any time withdraw any order made under this Section. Pending the disposal of any such appeal, the order shall remain in force.
  (8) Any proceedings in respect of a contravention of any order under this Section shall be taken before a sheriff having jurisdiction in the district where the dairy is situated.
  (9) A dairyman shall not be liable in damages for breach of contract if the breach be due to an order under this Section.
  (10) If any dairyman sustain any damage by reason of an order under this Section, and the damage has not arisen by reason
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  of his default, the local authority making the order shall be liable to pay to the dairyman full compensation for such damage. If the order arose out of proceedings under Sub-section (2) of this Section, the local authorities therein mentioned shall be jointly liable to pay in equal proportions full compensation to the dairyman for such damage. For the purpose of determining the amount of compensation payable under this Section the provisions of Section one hundred and sixty-four of the Public Health (Scotland) Act, 1897, shall apply. Where the districts mentioned in Sub-section (2) aforesaid are not within the jurisdiction of the same sheriff, it shall be competent for the sheriff of the district within which the dairy is situated to determine any action for recovery of compensation under this Section.
  Amendment made: In Sub-section (7), at end, add the words "unless previously withdrawn."—[Major Hope.]
  In Sub-section (10), leave out the words, "Sub-section (2)" ["Under Sub-section (2) of this Section"], and insert instead thereof the words, "Sub-sections (2) and (3)."—[Mr. McKinnon Wood.]

  CLAUSE 29.—(Cost of Structural Alterations.)
  (1) Where any premises, which with the consent or knowledge of the landlord or his agent are used by the tenant as a dairy, by reason of this Act or any by-law or regulation made under this Act cannot continue to be so used unless the premises are altered or improved, the tenant may make such alterations or improvements, including the introduction of a sufficient water supply for the purposes of the dairy, as are reasonably necessary to enable the premises to continue to be so used, and recover from the landlord such proportion of the expenses incurred as may be just and equitable under the circumstances of the case regard being had to the terms of any contract between the parties:
  Provided that the tenant, before beginning to execute such alterations or improvements, shall give to the landlord notice in writing of his intention to execute the alterations or improvements together with particulars thereof, and shall not proceed with the execution thereof if the landlord within twenty-eight days after receipt of the notice undertakes to execute the necessary alterations or improvements within a reasonable time.
  (2) Any question as to the reasonable necessity of any alteration or improvement or as to the proportion of the expenses to be paid by the landlord in default of agreement shall be determined by a single arbiter in accordance with the provisions set out in the Second Schedule to the Agricultural Holdings (Scotland) Act, 1908.
  Mr. WATSON: I beg to move, in Subsection (1), to leave out the words, "or knowledge" ["with the consent or knowledge "], and insert instead thereof the words, "express or implied."
  Major HOPE: I beg to second the Amendment.
  Mr. McKINNON WOOD: This is a matter of some difficulty, because, on the one hand, we do not wish to assume a knowledge. At the same time the word "consent" by itself may be held to imply formal or even written consent. I think the words now proposed by the hon. Member are a reasonable compromise, and will be a working compromise.
  Amendment agreed to.
  Mr. McKINNON WOODhad given notice of an Amendment, after the words "reasonable time," in the proviso, to insert the words "or requires that it shall be determined as provided for in Sub-section (2) of this Section whether there is any reasonable necessity for such alterations or improvements."
  Mr. WATSON: I understand that the Secretary for Scotland is willing to accept an Amendment of mine which embodies the Amendment of which he has given notice. Perhaps it will be convenient if I read the words of the Amendment. I move, after the words "reasonable time," to insert the words "subject to the recovery from the tenant of such proportion of the expenses incurred as may be just and equitable under the circumstances of the case, regard being had to the term of any contract between the parties or with the landlord." Now come the words of which the right hon. Gentleman gave notice, "or requires that it shall be determined as provided for in Sub-section (2) of this Section whether there is any reasonable necessity for such alterations or improvements." Then I propose to add the words "or what proportion of the expenses shall be paid by the landlord and tenant respectively." The Clause, as it
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  stands in the Bill, gives the tenant alone power, if he makes improvements, to recover any portion of the cost from the landlord. In many cases, undoubtedly, the landlord would be able more economically to make the improvements, and I think it would be fair that he should be given the option of making the improvements himself, but the Clause gives him no power to go to the arbiter and ask whether any portion should fall on the tenant or not. The additional words which I propose provide that if the landlord exercises the option he shall be entitled to recover the amount which the arbiter settles as fair and reasonable. There is this further point which I think is a substantial improvement, namely, that it would in many, if not in most, cases, be of great advantage to both landlord and tenant to know, before the alterations were executed, what proportion of the cost is going to fall on them respectively. The result of that would be that previous agreements would be come to in many cases, and thus the landlord and tenant would be saved having an arbitration at all. All the information would be before the arbiter before the alterations were made, and he would, therefore, be in a position to decide what proportion of the cost they had to pay if it had to be divided at all.
  Mr. MCKINNON WOOD: This Amendment seems rather complicated. The Amendment of which I gave notice, and which is on the Paper, carries out the pledge which I gave in Committee. I think it should be made clear that it shall be open to the arbiter to decide whether the alterations are reasonable. What the hon. and learned Member (Mr. Watson) proposes, as I understand, is that it should be open to the arbiter before the alterations are made to consider what proportion of the cost should fall respectively on landlord and tenant. I do not think that is unreasonable, but as the amendment is not on the Paper the hon. and learned Gentleman will allow me, if I accept it now, to-reserve the right of considering the matter, and having it altered in another place. I think that is a businesslike way of dealing with the Amendment.
  Mr. FALCONER: The previous Amendments which have been made have been passed without our having an opportunity of considering them. As to this particular Amendment, I confess quite frankly that I am unable to express any opinion upon

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  it, because I only partly heard what the hon. Member said when he was explaining it. It appears to me that it affects the right of the tenant to have improvements made, or, rather, to deal with the conditions which affect his right when improvements are made. No one can express an opinion as to the practical effect of the Amendment without having an opportunity of considering it, and I would suggest to the Secretary for Scotland and the House that in the circumstances in which we are met there is a presumption in favour of the decision arrived at by the Committee and against this Amendment which may have a much more serious operation than we are able to appreciate without having an opportunity of considering it. We have allowed all the other Amendments to go through, but I do think that on this matter it would be wise to allow the decision of the Committee to be the decision of the House.
  Mr. McKINNON WOOD: The Committee expressly desired us to insert the Amendment which I have on the Paper.
  Mr. FALCONER: I am not objecting to the right hon. Gentleman's Amendment; I am objecting to the modification of it, which has been proposed by the hon. Member opposite (Mr. Watson). I am quite willing to allow the Amendment, which embodies the undertaking which the right hon. Gentleman gave to the Committee to go through, but with regard to the modification of it, I think the hon. Member ought not to press it, and the Secretary for Scotland ought really not to accept it.
  Mr. HOGGE: I hope that the Secretary for Scotland will refuse to accept the Amendment. If it is inserted when the Bill goes to the House of Lords the Bill will come back here, and we can consider it then. I think that is fair. We Scottish Members spent four days upstairs on this Bill, and we should have an opportunity of looking at what this Amendment means. The Scottish Members know perfectly well that there are differences between the law of England and Scotland, and I suggest that the Secretary for Scotland, if he desires to accept the Amendment in the form in which it is proposed by the hon. Member, might have it inserted in the House of Lords in order that the Scottish Members, before it finally becomes law, may have an opportunity of objecting or agreeing to it.
  Colonel GREIG: I entirely agree with what fell from my hon. Friend (Mr. Falconer). I represent a Constituency which is largely interested in the question of milk supply. This Clause was considered' in Committee upstairs, and the wording, subject to the Amendment, which the Secretary for Scotland was going to propose was carefully adjusted in order to give the tenant the fullest right in carrying on his business, and bringing the premises up to modern requirements without unnecessary interference or control by the landlord. Under these circumstances, I am very much afraid that the additional' words which have been sprung upon us at the last moment would have a serious effect on the people concerned in carrying out their business in the way they wish. I very much object to the Amendment.
  Mr. WATSON: There is perhaps some misapprehension on the part of the hon. Gentlemen who have spoken in regard to the effect of the Amendment. I think they have entirely forgotten that Subsection (2) of this Section requires that a proportion of the expenses is to be settled by the arbiter. The question of dividing the expenses is not affected by this. Amendment at all. That is left absolutely open. I think the only changes the Amendment makes are two. First of all, it gives the landlord, if he chooses to execute the improvements, power to recover from the tenant the proportion of the expenses which the arbiter thinks just; and secondly, it gives him the opportunity of having the proportion settled before the improvements are actually carried out.
  Mr. WATT: I hoped that the Secretary for Scotland would have agreed to the suggestion made by my hon. Friend, the Member for East Edinburgh (Mr. Hogge) to postpone his acceptance of the Amendment. I think it is being too lightly accepted. There will be no harm in delaying the matter until the Bill comes back from another place to be considered in this House. Surely he will agree to that as a compromise, rather than ask us to swallow the Amendment moved by the hon. Member opposite? This Amendment comes from the side that has opposed the measure, and I think we should have sufficient time to consider it.
  Mr. SCOTT DICKSON: I suppose we are all anxious to get this Bill. It is all very well to talk of giving additional time to

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  consider the Amendment, but if it is not accepted now, the result may be that the Bill will not come back from the other House at all. At this time of the Session, I think it is dangerous to have any delay in the matter. The Secretary for Scotland has quite fairly asked that he should be allowed to reserve the right to consider the Amendment, and, if there is any objection to it, to give effect to that objection in the other place. I think the better course would be to take the line which the right hon. Gentleman suggests, subject to the Amendment receiving reconsideration by him.
  Mr. FALCONER: I entirely concur with what has fallen from the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Scott Dickson). I am perfectly willing to act on the suggestion of the Secretary for Scotland if he will give an opportunity for considering and discussing the Amendment when the Bill comes back from another place.
  Amendment agreed to.
  Mr. WATSON: I beg to move, in Subsection (2), after the word "landlord" ["paid by the landlord"], to insert the words "and the tenant respectively."
  Amendment agreed to.
  Bill read the third time, and passed.

DISEASES OF ANIMALS (IRELAND) BILL.
Considered in Committee.
DISEASES OF ANIMALS (IRELAND) BILL.

  CLAUSE 1.—(Amendment of 57 and 58 Vict., c. 57, Section 71 (5).)
  So much of Sub-section (5) of Section seventy-one of the Diseases of Animals Act, 1894, as imposes a limit upon the sum which may be levied under that Act in the whole shall be repealed, but nothing in this Act shall affect the limit imposed by that Sub-section upon the sum which may be levied at any one time.
  Mr. RUSSELL (Vice-President of the Department of Agriculture, Ireland): I beg to move to leave out from the beginning of the Clause to the word "but" and to insert instead thereof the words
  "The maximum amount which may be levied in the whole under Section
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  seventy-one of the Diseases of Animals Act, 1894, shall be such sum as is equivalent (taken with any money carried to the Cattle Plague account before the commencement of the Contagious Diseases (Animals) Act, 1878, and with any sums levied under that Act) to a poundage of one shilling in the pound on the net annual value of the property in all the administrative counties of Ireland, and accordingly Sub-section (5) of the said Section, as amended by any subsequent enactment, shall have effect with the substitution of one shilling for eight pence."
  Mr. GRETTON: I do not think that the Committee is aware of the necessity for this Bill. Is this Bill necessary this Session, because, as I understand, the right hon. Gentleman already has very considerable powers to deal with this subject.
  Mr. RUSSELL: At present we have power under the Act of 1894 to levy a rate up to 8d. in the £. We cannot afford to have the fund depleted to its full extent, and hence the necessity for this Bill. This does not touch the English trade at all. It simply extends the power to levy on the ratepayers, which has been exercised since the year 1866 without any complaint, to pay veterinary officers, and also to replenish the cattle disease fund for the payment of compensation for slaughter.
  Amendment agreed to.
  Bill reported; as amended, considered; read the third time, and passed.

INTERMEDIATE EDUCATION (IRELAND) (MONEY).
Resolution reported, "That it is expedient to authorise the payment out of moneys provided by Parliament of an annual Grant not exceeding £40,000 to the Intermediate Education Board for Ireland, in pursuance of any Act of the present Session to amend the law relating to intermediate education in Ireland."
Resolution agreed to.

INTERMEDIATE EDUCATION (IRELAND) (MONEY).
  INTERMEDIATE EDUCATION (IRELAND) BILL.
  Bill considered in Committee, and reported without Amendment; read the third time, and passed.
LABOURERS (IRELAND) BILL.
Bill read a second time, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House for To-morrow.—[Mr. Gulland.]
BANKRUPTCY BILL [lords].
Bill read a second time, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House for to-morrow (Thursday).
DEEDS OF ARRANGEMENT BILL [lords].
Bill read a second time, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House for To-morrow.—[Mr. Gudland.]

MERCHANT SHIPPING (CONVENTION) BILL.
As amended (in the Standing Committee), considered.
Mr. HAMILTON BENN: The Amendments which I put down to Clauses 9, 10, 11, and 12 were for the purpose of calling the attention of the House to the autocratic powers which the Board of Trade have taken to themselves under this Bill in matters affecting shipping interests. But, having regard to the circumstances of the hour, I do not propose to move the Amendments.

MERCHANT SHIPPING (CONVENTION) BILL.

  CLAUSE 12.—(Supplemental provisions for saving Life on Board Ship in Case of Accidents.)
  (1) The Board of Trade may make such rules as appear to them necessary or expedient for carrying out, in the case of passenger steamers which are registered in the United Kingdom, the provisions of the Convention with respect to the internal arrangement and the lighting of ships, manning of boats, certificates for lifeboat-men, prevention, detection, and extinction of fire on board ship, mustering and duties of the crew in case of accident, and for practice and drills with a view to action in emergencies, which are mentioned in Part IV. of the Third Schedule to this Act.
  (2) If any rule made under this Section is not complied with in the case of any ship, the owner of the ship (if in fault) shall be liable in respect of each offence to a fine not exceeding one hundred pounds, and the master of the ship (if in fault) shall be liable in respect of each offence
  2018
  to a fine not exceeding fifty pounds, and Sub-sections (2) and (3) of Section four hundred and thirty of the principal Act shall apply with respect to the penalties under this Section as they apply with respect to the penalties under that Section.
  The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the BOARD of TRADE (Mr. J. M. Robertson): I beg to propose, at the end of the Clause, to add the words,
  "(3) A seaman or apprentice to the sea service shall, during the period for which he is entitled to receive wages, take part, in accordance with any requirements of the master, in any muster or drill required by rules under this Section, and wilful failure or refusal on the part of any such seaman or apprentice so to take part in a muster or drill shall be regarded as wilful disobedience of a lawful command within the meaning of paragraph (b) of Sub-section (1) of Section two hundred and twenty-five of the principal Act; but a seaman or apprentice to the sea service shall not be compelled to take part in a muster or drill at the end of a voyage."
  This Clause is inserted to meet a proposal by my hon. Friend the Member for Hexham (Mr. Holt) in connection with the enforcement of new rules with reference to the saving of life at sea. The Amendment which the hon. Member put down was not satisfactory, and I think that this carefully drafted Amendment will substantially meet the case.
  Question, "That those words be there inserted," put, and agreed to.

  CLAUSE 15.—(Wireless Telegraphy Requirements.)
  (1) Subject to the provisions of this Act, every British ship registered in the United Kingdom which carries fifty or more persons shall be provided with a wireless telegraphy installation, and shall maintain a wireless telegraphy service which shall be at least sufficient to comply with the rules made for the purpose under this Act, and shall be provided with certified operators and watchers at least in accordance with those rules.
  (2) In reckoning the number of persons carried on a ship for the purpose of this Section, persons shall not be counted who are exceptionally and temporarily carried on a ship—

  (a) as the result of force majeure; or

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  (b) as the result of the necessity of increasing the number of the crew to fill the places of members of the crew who are ill or disabled; or

  (c) as the result of the obligation on the part of the master to carry shipwrecked persons, or persons in like circumstances; or

  (d) if so provided by rules of the Board of Trade, as cargo hands for a part of the voyage not being between one continent and another, and not being, during the time the hands are carried, outside the limits of latitude thirty degrees north and thirty degrees south.

  (3) If this Section is not complied with in the case of any ship, the master or owner of the ship shall be liable in respect of each offence to a fine not exceeding five hundred pounds, and any such offence may be prosecuted summarily, but if the offence is prosecuted summarily the fine shall not exceed one hundred pounds.
  Mr. HOLT: I beg to move, to insert, after the word "Act" ["subject to the provisions of this Act"], the words "within six months after the date on which any rules made in accordance with Section 16 of this Act become valid."
  The Government have an Amendment substantially to the same effect. The only difference is that the Government Amendment puts the period as not less than six months after the making of the rules, that is the date on which the rules are first published. But the rules are first to lie on the Table for forty days, and under the terms of the Government Amendment it might be quite possible for a shipowner to be obliged to comply with the rules, and subsequently to find the rules disallowed by Parliament. Therefore I submit that the form in which I put the Amendment is the proper one.
  Mr. BOOTH: I beg to second the Amendment.
  Mr. ROBERTSON: If the rules were disallowed by Parliament, of course that would make an end of the whole matter. Perhaps the hon. Member would be satisfied with the assurance which I can give him that we propose to insert in another place a provision delaying the operation of this Act as regards all these powers, and that that provision will be made after consultation and agreement with the shipping interests.
  Mr. HOLT: May I ask is that on account of special circumstances?
  Mr. ROBERTSON: Yes.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  Mr. ROBERTSON: I beg to propose, at the end of Sub-section (1), to add the words "Provided that the obligations imposed by this Section shall not come into operation until such date not being less than six months after the making of those rules, as may be specified in the rules."
  Amendment agreed to.
  Mr. HAMILTON BENN: I have Amendments down to Clauses 16 and 17, but I do not propose to move them, having regard to the assurance which the Parliamentary Secretary has just given.
  Bill read the third time, and passed.

MERCHANT SHIPPING BILL.
Bill, as amended (in the Standing Committee), considered; read the third time, and passed.

EAST AFRICAN PROTECTORATE LOANS BILL.
Motion made, and Question proposed. "That the Bill be now read the third time."
Mr. BOOTH: Before we agree to the Third Reading of this Bill, I would like to ask the Secretary for the Colonies to answer a question which I have already put the second time; that is, whether the East African Protectorates are in the British Empire or not, and is it incumbent on the forces of the Crown to defend them or not?
The SECRETARY of STATE for the COLON I ES (Mr. Harcourt): I do not think that the House would wish me just now to go into a long legal definition of the difference between a Crown Colony and a Protectorate, but, of course, the Crown of Great Britain exercises a greater amount of authority in a Protectorate than any other authority in the world, and any protection that may be required will not be wanting for these Protectorates any more than for any other place for which we have any responsibility.
Question put, and agreed to.
Bill read the third time, and passed.

HOUSING BILL.
Considered in Committee [Progress 31st July].
HOUSING BILL.

  CLAUSE 2.—(Powers of Local Government Board and Commissioners of Works for the purpose of Housing Persons employed by Government Departments.)
  (1) The Local Government Board shall have power, with the approval of the Treasury, to make arrangements with any authorised society within the meaning of this Act for the purpose of the provision, maintenance, and management of dwellings and gardens and other works or buildings for or for the convenience of persons employed by or on behalf of Government Departments on Government works, where sufficient dwelling accommodation is not available for those persons, and the Commissioners of Works shall have power for the same purpose, with the consent of the Treasury, given after consultation with the Local Government Board, to acquire and dispose of land and buildings, and to build dwellings, and do all other things which appear to them necessary or desirable for effecting that purpose.
  (2) The Local Government Board may, with the approval of the Treasury, assist any authorised society with whom arrangements are made under this Act on such conditions as they think fit by becoming holders of the share or loan capital thereof or making loans thereto or otherwise as they think fit.
  Where the Local Government Board make arrangements under this Act with any authorised society in connection with the provision or maintenance of dwellings within any borough, the council of the borough shall have the like power, with the approval of the Local Government Board, of assisting the society as the Local Government Board have under this Act with the approval of the Treasury.
  Any expenses incurred by the council under this provision shall be defrayed in the same manner as expenses of the council under Part III. of the Housing of the Working Classes Act, 1890; and the council shall have the like power to borrow for the purpose of this provision as they have for the purposes of that part of that Act.
  5.0 P.M.
  Lord ROBERT CECIL: I bog formally to move, at the beginning of the Clause, to insert the words "On receiving notice of a resolution of any local authority as hereinafter defined requesting them so to do."
  The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the ADMIRALTY (Dr. Macnamara): I understand that there is a general feeling that we should take this Clause, the immediate object of which is for the housing of Government employés at Rosyth and possibly other places. Clause 1 has been postponed, as was indicated it would be on the first occasion. Under the circumstances in which we find ourselves I shall be prepared to go on with Clauses 2, 3, and 4, subject to making certain Amendments, so that we may take out such money as may be required to at once make places for Government employés, whose cases will shortly, no doubt, become urgent.
  Mr. H. W. FORSTER: I think the selection which the right hon. Gentleman has made is one to which we can agree, though there may be a word or two to be said in connection with certain points in the Clauses.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  Mr. C. BATHURST: I beg to move, in Sub-section (1), after the word "Treasury" ["approval of the Treasury"], to insert the words "and with the concurrence of the local authority as hereinafter defined."
  I think the Government gave notice that they would make some suggestion on this point.
  Dr. MACNAMARA Dr. MACNAMARA dissented.
  Mr. C. BATHURST: I do not desire to raise the question, but I wish to know whether the Government desire to restrict the provisions of the Clause only to those actually employed "on Government works," or whether they are prepared to leave out the words "on Government works," so as to extend the operation of the Act to all persons in Government employ, because some of the worst cases in regard to housing of Government servants are among those who are employed continuously.
  Dr. MACNAMARA: I will consider that point and, if necessary, make an Amendment in another place. I hope the hon. Member will not press his Amendment.
  Mr. FORSTER: I am not quite sure that the words of the Amendment as they stand are not too narrow, and do not allow the Government to do that which the whole House think they should be able to do.
  Dr. MACNAMARA: On the Second Reading it was pointed out that the words "on behalf of Government works," would be too narrow an interpretation, but I see no reason whatever why we should not put in, "on any Government works," "or any Government establishments."
  Mr. C. BATHURST: That does not meet my point. The right hon. Gentleman has appealed to me, however, not to press this Amendment in existing circumstances, and I should be the last to do so. I hope, however, that the right hon. Gentleman will give the matter consideration in another place.
  Mr. RUPERT GWYNNE: Has the Government under this Bill taken powers to over-ride the provisions of the Public Health Act?
  Dr. MACNAMARA: We act under the existing law.
  The CHAIRMAN: That point does not arise here.
  Mr. C. BATHURST: I ask leave to withdraw my Amendment, and I hope that my colleagues will follow my example.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  Mr. HAYES FISHER: I beg to move, in Sub-section (1), after the "word "dwellings" ["and to build dwellings"], to insert the words, "by contract but not otherwise."
  I should like to ask the right hon. Gentleman whether it is contemplated to build these houses as much as possible under local contracts, a system which has one or two very great advantages. In the first place, it is much more likely that local labour will be employed in the different places where these dwellings are erected instead of a great central Department sending people down from London. In the second place, it would be more economical and would prevent a large staff of inspectors being set up by the Department. I think it is most desirable that the work should be done by contract. I do not wish, however, to put any impediment in the way of the Bill passing in its present form.
  Dr. MACNAMARA: I take it that the Office of Works would, as a rule, put this work under contract, and I hope the right hon. Gentleman will not tie our hands, and will not press his Amendment.
  Mr. HAYES FISHER: I stated that I was not pressing the Amendment, and I only desire to express my opinion that it would be desirable in many cases to proceed by way of contract.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  Question proposed, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."
  Lord ROBERT CECIL: Is it not necessary to also strike out the second and third paragraphs of Sub-section (2) at the end of the Clause? They do not appear to me to have anything to do with the matter.
  Dr. MACNAMARA: I will take note of what the Noble Lord has pointed out, and, as I have stated, any consequential Amendments which may be found to be necessary will be looked into.
  Question, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill," put, and agreed to.

  CLAUSE 3.—(Payment of Expenses incurred under Act.)
  (1) The Treasury shall, as and when they think fit, issue out of the Consolidated Fund, or the growing produce thereof, such sums as may be required for the purpose of meeting any expenditure which is, in the opinion of the Treasury, of a capital nature and which is incurred with the consent or approval of the Treasury by or on behalf of the Board of Agriculture and Fisheries, the Local Government Board, or the Commissioners of Works for the purposes of this Act, not exceeding in the aggregate, in the case of expenditure incurred by or on behalf of the Board of Agriculture and Fisheries three million pounds, and in the case of other expenditure two million pounds; and any expenses incurred for those purposes by the Board of Agriculture and Fisheries, the Local Government Board, or the Commissioners of Works, not being, in the opinion of the Treasury, of the nature of capital expenditure, shall be defrayed out of moneys provided by Parliament, and any receipts arising in connection therewith shall be paid into the Exchequer.
  (2) The Treasury may, if they think fit, for the purpose of providing money for sums so authorised to be issued out of the Consolidated Fund, or for repaying to that Fund any part of the sums so issued, borrow by means of terminable annuities for a term not exceeding thirty years; and all sums so borrowed shall be paid into the Exchequer.
  (3) The said annuities shall be paid out of moneys provided by Parliament, and if those moneys are insufficient, shall be charged on and paid out of the Consolidated Fund of the United Kingdom or the growing produce thereof.
  (4) The Treasury may also, if they think fit, for the same purpose borrow money by means of the issue of Exchequer bonds, and the Capital Expenditure (Money) Act, 1904, shall have effect as if this Act had been in force at the time of the passing of that Act.
  Government Amendment made: Leave out the words "Board of Agriculture and Fisheries, the" ["by or on behalf of the Board of Agriculture and Fisheries, the"].
  Consequential Amendments agreed to.
  Question, "That the Clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill," put, and agreed to.

  CLAUSE 4.—(Interpretation, Application, and Short Title.)
  (1) In this Act the expression "authorised society" means any society, company, or body of persons approved by the Treasury having for their objects the erection, improvement, or management of dwellings for working classes, which does not trade for profit, or whose constitution forbids the payment of any interest or dividend at a rate exceeding five per cent. per annum.
  (2) In the application of this Act to Scotland the Local Government Board for Scotland shall be substituted for the Local Government Board, the Board of Agriculture for Scotland shall be substituted for the Board of Agriculture and Fisheries, and "burgh" shall be substituted for "borough."
  (3) This Act shall not apply to Ireland.
  (4) This Act may be cited as the Housing Act, 1914.
  Mr. C. BATHURST: I beg to move, in Sub-section (1), to leave out the words "having for their objects" ["having for their objects the erection"], and to insert instead thereof the words "whose objects include."
  Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman will realise that the public utility societies have other objects besides the erection and management of dwellings for the working classes. One of their objects is to lay out gardens in connection with the cottages, and to provide pig-sties and other outbuildings, and only a slight alteration in
  2026
  the wording would enable the societies to carry on their work.
  Mr. FORSTER: It seems to me that Amendment would require the societies to be approved societies.
  Lord ROBERT CECI L: They would have to be approved by the Treasury, and that Department would not approve of a society unless its main object was the erection of cottages.
  Mr. FORSTER: I am fully in agreement with my hon. Friend's Amendment, though, I confess, I am a little doubtful as to the proposed words.
  Dr. MACNAMARA: I will consider the matter.
  Amendment agreed to.
  Further Amendment made: In Subsection (2) leave out the words, "The Board of Agriculture for Scotland shall be substituted for the Board of Agriculture and Fisheries."
  Question, "That the Clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill," put, and agreed to.

  CLAUSE 1.—(Powers of Board of Agriculture and Fisheries for Housing Purposes in Agricultural Districts.)
  Question, "That Clause 1 stand part of Bill," put, and negatived.

  NEW CLAUSE.—(Provisions for purchase of Land under this Act.)
  (1) Where any land is purchased or intended to be purchased, either wholly or in part, with moneys provided by this Act, either the vendor or the purchaser may require that the price thereof, in so far as it represents full site value as defined in Sub-section (2) of Section 25 of the Finance (1909–10) Act, 1910, shall be the full site value thereof as ascertained for the time being under that Act: Provided that nothing in this Section shall affect or diminish any right to compensation in respect of any subject not included in full site value.
  (2) Where any land purchased or intended to be purchased under this Act is part of a larger subject which is valued at a whole under the provisions of Part I. of the Finance (1909–10) Act, 1910, either the vendor or the purchaser may apply to the Commissioners for an allocation of the full site value of that subject as between the portion purchased or intended to be purchased and the remainder, and the

  2027
  amount so allocated to the portion purchased or intended to be purchased shall be deemed to be its full site value for the purposes of this Section.
  (3) If provision is made in any Act for the better adjustment of full site value, the words "full site value "in this Section shall be construed to mean the full site value as adjusted in accordance with that provision.
  Clause brought up, and read the first time.
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause be read a second time."
  Mr. DUNDAS WHITE: I do not intend to press this Clause, but I would like an assurance that a record may be kept of particulars relating to any lands that may be purchased under the provisions of this Bill. I put a question to the Prime Minister asking that such should be done in the case of all land purchased for Government Departments, and he gave me a promise he would consider it. I hope that the same principle will be adopted in any purchase under this Bill.
  Sir F. BANBURY: I hope the Government will not accept this Amendment as it is controversial.
  Question, "That the Clause be read a second time," put, and negatived.

  NEW CLAUSE.—(Application of Public Health Acts, etc., to Houses built under Act.)
  Notwithstanding any provisions to the contrary in any Act by-law or regulation for the time being in force the provisions of the Public Health Acts, and such of the provisions of any public general or local Act as are intended to secure that houses shall be so constructed and maintained as to be sanitary and fit for human habitation and any by-laws or regulations of the local authority of the district in which the dwellings and garden" and other works or buildings are situate shall apply to any dwellings and gardens and other works or buildings provided maintained and managed under the provisions of this Act.
  Clause brought up, and read the first time.
  Mr. GWYNNE: I beg to move, "That the Clause be read a second time."
  The object of this Clause is to render houses built on Crown land under this Bill subject to the provisions of the Public Health Acts and to require the plans to conform with the by-laws of the local
  2028
  authority; and also that, after erection, the local authorities should have power to inspect as in the case of other cottages. It is very important that that should be the case. I hope the right hon. Gentleman will give me an assurance that it will be so, and if he does, I do not propose to proceed with the new Clause.
  Dr. MACNAMARA: I agree with the hon. Gentleman that it is an important point. I have no doubt the houses built on our land under this scheme would conform with the provisions of the Local Government Board.
  Mr. GWYNNE: It is very important that the future maintenance of the houses should be subject to the provisions of the Public Health Acts and the local regulations.
  Lord ROBERT CECIL: May I suggest to the right hon. Gentleman to give an undertaking that he will consider this matter. I do not think it can be judiciously discussed just now.
  Mr. JONATHAN SAMUEL: Is it not the case as far as these houses are concerned that those responsible could be called upon to comply with the regulations.
  Dr. MACNAMARA: No, not as far as Crown land is concerned. I will consider what the hon. Gentleman has mentioned. I have no doubt that these would be in accordance with the views of the local authority. As the Noble Lord suggests, I will look into the point carefully and with full sympathy for the views expressed by the hon. Gentleman.
  Motion and Clause, by leave, withdrawn.
  Amendment made in title: Leave out the words "give the Board of Agriculture and Fisheries powers with respect to the housing in agricultural districts of persons belonging to the working classes and."
  Bill, as amended, reported.
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read the third time."
  Dr. MACNAMARA: There may be drafting Amendments and Amendments necessary to carry out undertakings, and we propose to make some of them in another place. They will be made in accordance with the spirit in which the matter has been considered by the Committee.
  Question put, and agreed to.
  Bill read the third time, and passed.

GREENWICH HOSPITAL.
Resolved, "That the Statement of the estimated Income and Expenditure of Greenwich Hospital and of Travers' Foundation for the year 1914–15 be approved."—[Mr. George Lambert.]

INJURED IN WAR (COMPENSATION) BILL.
Dr. MACNAMARA: I beg to move, "That leave be given to introduce a Bill to provide for the grant of pensions and other allowances to certain persons injured whilst employed in warlike operations and their dependants, and for other purposes connected therewith."
The object of this Bill is to make provision for civilians who may not be covered by the Workmen's Compensation Act, and are not under any provision made by the War Office or Admiralty. Men afloat would not be under the Workmen's Compensation Act, and the purpose of the Money Resolution and this Bill is to provide for those cases.
Question put, and agreed to.
Bill ordered to be brought in by Dr. Macnamara, Mr. Harold Baker, and Mr. Montagu. Presented accordingly, and read the first time; to be read a second time to-morrow, and to be printed.
Ordered, "That this House will tomorrow resolve itself into a Committee to consider of making provision for the grant of pensions and other allowances to certain persons if injured whilst employed in connection with warlike operations, and to their dependants, and for purposes connected therewith."—[Mr. Gulland.]

LABOURERS (IRELAND) ACTS— [MONEY.]
Ordered, "That this House will tomorrow resolve itself into a Committee to consider of authorising an increase of the limit on the sums that may be defrayed out of moneys provided by Parliament for the purpose of payments in respect of advances made by the Land Commission for the provision of cottages and allotments under the Labourers (Ireland) Act, 1906, in pursuance of any Act of the
2030
present Session to amend the law relating to labourers in Ireland." King's recommendation to be signified.—[Mr. Gulland.]

PRIVATE BUSINESS.

  WESLEYAN AND GENERAL ASSURANCE SOCIETY BILL [Lords] (by Order).
  Order for Third Reading read.
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read the third time."
  The CHAIRMAN of WAYS and MEANS (Mr. Whitley): I wish to make an explanation. When this Bill was last before the House and was in its consideration stage, I was inadvertently led into an error which I now wish to correct. I was under the impression that the petitioners against the Bill had not been charged the usual fees of the House owing to the fact that their hearing was due to a special instruction of the House. I have since found that that was not so. I was under a wrong impression, and I find that fees were charged. I think it is due to the petitioners and their agents that I should remedy that statement on the first opportunity I have had.
  Mr. TYSON WILSON: I beg to move to leave out the word "now," and at the end of the Question to add the words "upon this day three months."
  I have heard rumours that some understanding has been come to with regard to the passage of this Bill, but I do not know what the conditions are. My constituents are strongly opposed to the Bill, and after reading the Bill and hearing the arguments in previous Debates, I feel that I must move the rejection of the measure with the object of giving those interested an opportunity of making a statement upon the matter. We have been told time and again that a very large number of those who hold industrial policies in the company were under the impression that they were bonâ fide members, having certain rights. That may be right or it may be wrong, but, in view of the position taken up by the company, I think that in justice to these people who have paid their money for many years, and have been the backbone of the company, a statement ought to be made on the matter.
  Mr. S. WALSH: I beg to second the Amendment.
  I certainly think that the statement which has been so honourably explained

  2031
  by the Chairman of Ways and Means did influence, I will not say to a considerable, but to an appreciable extent, the Vote on the last occasion. [An HON. MEMBER: "No!"] We do not attach the slightest blame to the right hon. Gentleman for his lack of information on that point. We feel that this class of legislation affects very seriously indeed the interests of vast bodies of poor people, and that, when they themselves, because of their very poverty are unable to combine so effectively as people better placed in society can, and when they are unable to present their case before the Committee with anything like the same efficiency and the same display of intellect, it throws upon this House a heavier responsibility than might otherwise be the case. It would be invidious and tiresome to go into the arguments once again, and for the purpose of finding whether a friendly arrangement has been come to, and in order not to waste the time of the House, I beg formally to second the Motion.
  Sir E. CORNWALL: I do not know of any arrangement beyond this, that some hon. Members felt that the matter had been so thoroughly discussed before that under present circumstances it was not advisable to renew the discussion to-day. I do not think that I should be studying the convenience of the House if I went further into the matter. The point raised by hon. Members below the Gangway has been considered on the various stages of the Bill. Their view has not prevailed, but it has been thoroughly discussed; therefore I hope my hon. Friends will not press their Motion to a division, but will accept the verdict of the House.
  Question, "That the word 'now' stand part of the Question" put, and agreed to.
  Main Question put, and agreed to.
  Bill read the third time, and passed, with Amendments.

  GLASGOW CORPORATION (TRAMWAYS, ECT.) BILL [Lords].—(By Order).
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill, as amended, be now considered."
  Sir H. CRAIK: I beg to move to leave out the word "now" and at the end of the Question to add the words "upon this day three months."
  2032
  It is well known that the House has certain powers under ordinary circumstances in regard to private Bills such as this, and if ever a case called for the use of those powers to the very utmost to prevent the passing of a Bill, this is one. I do not want to enter into the general principles of the measure. The Bill is no doubt an important one to Glasgow. Amongst other principles it involves the carrying still further of an enormous scheme of municipal trading. From one point of view or another, we might, in ordinary circumstances, have had an opportunity of effectively bringing the real merits or demerits of such a proposal before the House. This scheme of municipal trading in the present instance proposes to drive a tramway line altogether unnecessarily through the centre of a great branch of the University of Glasgow—the Queen Margaret College—which not only provides for the education of women, but is without the possibility of gainsaying the most important institution existing in Scotland for the higher education of women. There are between 600 and 700 lady students in the University of Glasgow, and a very large number of them attend this Queen Margaret College. The college has been built up by the hard efforts and loving care of those who founded it, and those who have for more than a generation spent their money and their lives in fostering it. It has very admirable buildings, situated in large grounds, the amenity of which adds very greatly, not only to the name and dignity of the college, but also to the efficiency of the work there carried on. Without considering whether any alternative plan might be carried out, the Committee entrusted with this Bill has chosen to give its assent to a scheme by which the grounds and buildings of the college will be entirely ruined.
  Mr. WATT: Oh!
  Sir H. CRAIK: I am quite prepared to make out my case. It is, no doubt, suggested that the corporation should take a very important part of the grounds of the college, changing what are quiet and pleasant premises into the noisy neighbourhood of a thoroughfare along which tramways will be running all day long. At present the neighbour of the Queen Margaret College is the Botanic Gardens, and the site was selected on that account. If you take off a considerable part of the premises and construct thereon a noisy

  2033
  thoroughfare, with rumbling trams running all day long, you will practically destroy the amenity of the grounds and the efficiency of the work of the college. There was another plan set aside by the Committee without any consideration at all. The opponents of the Bill were not allowed even to prove how efficacious it might be. That was the plan of taking the tramway through a hideous erection bearing the strange name of the Kibble Conservatory, or something of that sort—a building which might, with great advantage to the dignity of Glasgow, to the benefit of the Botanic Gardens, and to the pleasure of the eye of the passer-by, be swept away—in order to enable the tramway to be constructed without interfering with the college. But it seems to me to be a source of pleasure to this aggrandising, aggravating corporation that it should choose precisely that route which most seriously affects this great place of education. Nothing would satisfy them except interfering by taking off a considerable part of the premises or else driving their tramway through the middle of the building and leave the college houseless. Another proposal laid before the Committee and considered by them was that the corporation should reinstate the college' on some other ground equally adapted to the purpose, free from restrictions as to building, so that the college authorities could be enabled to erect suitable buildings. That very reasonable plan was understood to be accepted by the leading counsel for the promoters of the Bill. I will read an extract from the notes of the proceedings before the Committee:—
  "Principal Counsel for the Corporation: Dr. Murray said there is a site upon which they could house.
  Mr. Lyndon Macassey: No, he did not.
  Counsel: As I understand, that site would do if it were free from restrictions?
  The Witness: If it were free from restrictions.
  Counsel (on the part of the Corporation): I am willing to buy that land. I am willing in my very next Bill I have in Parliament to put in a Clause freeing it from restrictions, and to hand over that to them as part of the compensation for the Queen Margaret, the rest of the compensation to be determined by an arbitrator.
  The Witness: But we proposed that ages ago, and you would not listen to it.
  The Chairman: I thought I was seeing daylight in this complicated matter."
  The Committee adjourned in order that on that basis a compromise might be effected. But when they came together to consult, the corporation offered a certain sum of money, but would take no responsibility whatever for assisting the college to obtain another site, but left them to fight against the proprietors in the neighbourhood, whose land was to be obtained only
  2034
  under severe restrictions. To remove those restrictions the corporation would not give the slightest help. Then follow—and I wish to call the attention of the Chairman of Committee to this—these words:—
  The Witness: We do not like the site, but we will take it.
  Mr. Lynden Macassey: That is free from restrictions?—Yes.
  The Chairman: It is very necessary that the corporation should undertake that.
  That was the pledge given by the Corporation, accepted by the Chairman, and made the basis of a bargain-that is entirely repudiated when we come to deal with the Promoters. I never knew a great Corporation so carried away by its enthusiasm for a matter of this sort, as to be unfair to a great educational institution.
  Mr. WATT: Will the hon. Member say how much of the garden of this institution is being taken?
  Sir H. CRAIK: The point is the separation of the garden from the institution, so that the students will be studying in the midst of a thoroughfare. Is not that absolutely destroying the amenities of the site altogether? I ask hon. Members to remember, even under the strained circumstances under which I speak to-day, and in which my powers as a private Member in obstructing legislation of this kind are so severely restricted, to remember if they condone this, what sort of precedent will be created? What sort of institution will be sacred against the maw of municipal legislation, seeing the Corporation care for nothing but the dividends they obtain?
  Mr. PRINGLE: No dividends are paid!
  Sir H. CRAIK: I can only raise my protest, not only on behalf of the University of Glasgow, but on behalf of similar institutions elsewhere against this proposal. I know no precedent for taking away part of the premises, and for practically breaking up a great institution of this kind without aiding it in the least degree to reinstate itself in another place. Is the university merely to take the small sum offered by arbitration and to be left to wander about and to look for a site on which to place their institution, knowing as they do, and as the corporation does, that the sites all round in the neighbourhood conveniently placed are under such restrictions as render them, unless you obtain an Act of Parliament with the help of convocation practically useless for the purpose.
  Sir JOSEPH LARMOR: I cordially second the Amendment. I am not a Scottish Member, but I have the honour of being a graduate of the University of Glasgow, an honour which I have been in the enjoyment of for twenty years, and during that time I have many times worked with the distinguished men who constitute the faculty of the university; therefore, I know something about their fairness and also of their ability in directing the fortunes of that institution. To a Southerner like myself it comes as a matter of great astonishment that there should be any question of a dispute between the City of Glasgow and the university, the home of Adam Smith, James Watt, Lister, Kelvin—[HON. MEMBERS: "And yourself!"]. I am aware, from direct intercourse, of the very strong views that the authorities of the university took on this, matter, and the way they regard it as an exercise of tyranny, and if I may venture to express what is given to me of their views, the public opinion of the City of Glasgow has not had the opportunity of expressing itself on this subject. The negotiations concerned with this Bill have been conducted by the officials of the Corporation of Glasgow practically without contact with the corporation itself. I think I am expressing the opinion of many members of the university that if they had had time to put their case before the City of Glasgow they would have obtained strong support; that in fact, they would have won their case, and it would not have been necessary to make the proposal. I formally second the Resolution on the ground I have stated. To a person south of the Tweed it does seem a matter of great astonishment that such a quarrel should have arisen at all.
  Sir EDWIN CORNWALL: Perhaps it would be desirable to say at once how the matter was dealt with upstairs by the Committee of which I was Chairman. The hon. Member for Glasgow University today talked about the "aggrandisement of au aggravating corporation," of "enthusiastic tyranny," of "caring nothing but for the dividends which it could get." That is the way the hon. Member for Glasgow University dealt with the subject. I can assure the House that that was not the spirit in which the Committee of this House dealt with this Bill, and I do not think it is the spirit in which any Member, if I may say so with respect, should treat a Bill promoted by a responsible corporation like Glasgow. Let hon. Members look at the Clause which the hon. Member
  2036
  for the University has put upon the Paper. It is true that he has not moved it, but the Clause on the Paper shows the spirit of the hon. Member. It is an impossible Clause. No corporation would have inserted in its Bill a Clause for reinstatement on the lines that are here put down by the hon. Member—I suppose on behalf of the university! That was rather the difficulty that we were in in Committee. My colleagues and myself took a great deal of pains with regard to this Bill. We considered that the fact that the corporation proposed to take part of the ground of St. Margaret College—
  Sir H. CRAIK: You do not even know the name!
  Sir E. CORNWALL: Queen Margaret College. I know the circumstances very well. Glasgow Corporation proposed to take part of the ground of Queen Margaret College, an educational institution in Glasgow, given by a benevolent lady for the benefit of the education of young women. That fact weighed very much with the Committee. We felt that it was not an ordinary case of a corporation taking property, and if there was anything that a Committee of Parliament could do, or anything that Parliament could do, in the passage of this Bill to make an equitable arrangement and accommodation between the corporation and university, it was the duty of the Committee to do it. We struggled for two days in trying to bring about a fair accommodation. As the hon. Gentleman opposite has pointed out, 1, on one occasion, said that I thought I saw daylight. We adjourned the Committee one day until the next in the hope that the parties would agree, but the words read by the hon. Member as to the new site and the restrictions do not quite bear the interpretation he put upon them. There is a technical reading in those words that it is impossible to go into now, but when we met the next morning after adjournment, and I hoped to hear that the Glasgow Corporation and the Glasgow University had come to an agreement, we found, to our regret, that they had not done so.
  Sir H. CRAIK: Because the corporation repudiated the undertaking of their counsel.
  Sir E. CORNWALL: I dispute that entirely. If the hon. Member had waited for me to finish my sentence he would have

  2037
  heard what I said in regard to that. We met next morning, regretting that the parties had not come to agreement. My colleagues and myself all agreed that the reason that an arrangement had not been come to was owing to the attitude of the university, and was not the fault of the corporation. That did not, of course, lead the Committee to cease its effort to do all it could to make a proper arrangement, but an arrangement by agreement proved impossible. Hon. Members who know the procedure in these matters know that no Committee can, while considering a Bill of this nature, put any reinstatement Clause in it unless by agreement. Although I hoped there would be agreement on the question of reinstatement the day that we adjourned, the fact that there was no agreement made it impossible for the Committee to proceed on the lines of an arrangement, because it was beyond our power to set ourselves up as arbitrators.
  Sir PHILIP MAGNUS: Can the hon. Gentleman say what the corporation did propose?
  6.0 P.M.
  Sir E. CORNWALL: I cannot go into that, but the reports of proceedings will show what took place in negotiation. The result of the Committee's labours in their other House and in this House come to this: that the university can require the corporation to deviate the road and only take part of its ground—if the university desire that that course should be taken—and limiting the amount of land which the corporation can take. The total area of the land of the university is 11,783 square yards. The triangular piece of garden is 2,100 yards. The corporation offered, and the offer still holds good, of £10,000 for this small triangular piece of land in front of their building. That is at the rate of £5 per square yard—a very large sum. If the university are not satisfied with £10,000 they have got a provision in the Bill that they can go to arbitration under the Lands Clauses Act. There is the limitation of the Lands Clauses Act which only provides one arbitrator. We removed that limitation in favour of the university so that they should have the two arbitrators and all the advantages of the Lands Clauses Act. They also have the power, if they like, under the Bill to compel the corporation to take the whole of their premises and to go to arbitration upon it. I am telling the House the exceptional terms which the House of Lords Committee
  2038
  the Committee of this House gave these particular owners of property because they were a branch of the Glasgow University, and because they were an educational institution deserving of every consideration from this House. These are the special provisions which we put into the Bill as a Grant to the universities. I should like the House to understand that this is not the Glasgow University as generally known. It is a branch of the university, a dwelling house, bought by a benevolent lady, and used for ladies of the college connected with the university. No one would suggest that an institution of this kind should not be preserved if possible, but when the Glasgow Corporation comes along and wants to make a necessary main road through its city for the advantage of the tramways and for the general facilities of the traffic of the city, how could a Committee of this House resist the application of the corporation for an ordinary Bill of this nature? I think I have shown that the Committee was very anxious in this matter, and gave the fullest consideration to it and put in special clauses and provisions for the protection of Glasgow University. I hope that the House will support the Committee and appreciate the fact that we did everything we could to act fairly and rightly as between the corporation and the college.
  Mr. MacCALLUM SCOTT: This Bill provides in Glasgow, amongst other things, for the making of a new street and a new bridge for tramways, and for this purpose it takes a portion of the ground of Queen Margaret's College. I believe that it is agreed on all sides that for the portion of the ground taken, full, ample, and generous compensation is given.
  Sir H. CRAIK: No.
  Mr. MacCALLUM SCOTT: I understood that was agreed. It certainly is my opinion that more than the value of the ground is given. The university, which is the owner of the ground, has also the option of compelling the Glasgow Corporation to take not merely a portion but the Whole of the ground of the college and to give full compensation for it as settled by arbitration. The contention of the university is that the taking of this portion of the garden for the purpose of a new street with a tramway running along it will destroy the amenities of the college, and they therefore ask that the corporation should be bound to give compensation, not merely for the portion of the

  2039
  ground taken, but should carry out a complete transfer of the college to some other site, and completely and wholly reinstate it there. The case for the university has been presented with great force and vigour by the hon. Gentleman opposite who represents the university. I myself, like the hon. Member for Cambridge University who seconded the Amendment, am a graduate of the university, and my loyalty and filial affection are due to it. I feel myself drawn towards everything that can be said in support of its interests, but I am torn between a double loyalty. I am also a Member for one of the Divisions of the City of Glasgow. There can be no doubt that this Bill is one of vital importance to Glasgow to secure the necessary development of the tramway system which is urgently required in order to provide adequate facilities for the travelling public and to equip the city with those modern conveniences which are necessary for the proper organisation of a large city. I think that in this position, torn by a double loyalty, there is no course open for me but to accept the verdict of an impartial and disinterested Committee which considered this matter. The Bill has been before a Committee of this House. The Chairman of that Committee—the hon. Gentleman who has just spoken—is a man of great experience in these matters, and has given the fullest and most careful consideration to the very point which is in dispute, and I understand, perhaps with some hesitation, but without any doubt, in their final decision they have recommended that the Bill in its present form should be passed by this House. In these circumstances, as one who is closely interested in the Bill from both points of view, I find myself obliged to give my support to the Bill.
  The CHAIRMAN of WAYS and MEANS (Mr. Whitley): I think as this Bill has been most carefully examined by a Committee in both Houses of Parliament, the House should be prepared in a matter of this kind to take the decision of the Committee upstairs. I have been asked a question upon which some Members desire to be quite clear, and that is whether or not the university have the option as they please of making the Glasgow Corporation take the whole or part. The answer is that that option does lie in the hands of the university. It is for them to say which course and consideration they desire. I have it also from the Glasgow Corporation
  2040
  that they have come to the conclusion that if the university prefers that the whole should be taken, and therefore wish to seek another site, the Glasgow Corporation will give them every reasonable assistance and facility in their power in carrying out a scheme of that kind.
  Sir H. CRAIK: Is that part of the corporation' s undertaking?
  The CHAIRMAN of WAYS and MEANS: That I am authorised to say by the Corporation of Glasgow, and I hope the House will reject the Amendment now before it.
  Sir F. BANBURY: I must say, having listened to the right hon. Gentleman, the Chairman of Ways and Means, that I do not think my hon. Friend should go to a division. I was ready to support him, because I thought that the policy proposed in this Bill is a wrong policy, but I now understand that the college have a right to go to the corporation itself and to say, "You must not take a bit of our property, but you must take the whole of it, and under the Lands Clauses Act." Much as I dislike tramways, I do not think I could possibly vote against what seems to me to be a very reasonable proposition.
  Sir E. CORNWALL: I thought I made that quite clear.
  Sir H. CRAIK: I do not propose to put the House to the trouble of a division. I accept what the Chairman of Ways and Means has said on behalf of the corporation, but I do think the college is put to very great inconvenience, and probably will have great difficulty in this matter. I ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  Main Question put, and agreed to.
  Bill, as amended, considered.
  Ordered, That Standing Orders 223 and 243 be suspended, and that the Bill be now read the third time.—[Chairman of Ways and Means.]
  Bill accordingly read the third time, and passed, with Amendments.

  LONDON COUNTY COUNCIL (GENERAL POWERS) BILL (by Order),

    GLASGOW CORPORATION (CELLULOID) BILL (by Order).
    Consideration, as amended, deferred till To-morrow.
    Message from The Lords,
    That they have agreed to,—
    Aliens Restriction Bill,
    Prize, Courts (Procedure) Bill,
    Exportation of Horses Bill,
    Trade Marks Bill,
    Glasgow Corporation Order Confirmation Bill, without Amendment.
    Hayward's Heath Gas Bill,
    Newcastle-upon-Tyne Corporation Bill,
    Ossett Corporation Bill,
    Walsall Corporation Bill,
    St. Anne's-on-the-Sea Improvement Bill,
    Pier and Harbour Provisional Orders (No. 2) Bill,
    Clyde Navigation Order Confirmation Bill, with Amendments.
    Amendments to—
    Leighton Buzzard Gas Bill [Lords],
    Gas Light and Coke Company Bill [Lords],
    Leeds Corporation Bill [Lords],
    Edenbridge and District Gas Bill [Lords],
    Midland Railway Bill [Lords],
    Skegness Urban District Council Bill [Lords],
    Manchester Corporation Bill [Lords].
    West Gloucestershire Water Bill [Lords],
    British Nationality and Status of Aliens Bill [Lords], without Amendment.
    Pier and Harbour Provisional Orders (No. 2) Bill,
    Clyde Navigation Order Confirmation Bill,
    Lords Amendments to be considered To-morrow.
    Sitting suspended at Eleven minutes after Six of the clock.
    The House reassembled at Seven of the clock, Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.

ROYAL ASSENT.
Message to attend the Lords Commissioners.
The House went, and having returned, Mr. SPEAKER reported the Royal Assent to—

1. The Aliens Restriction Act, 1914.

2. The Prize Courts (Procedure) Act, 1914.

WAR IN EUROPE.
  RETURNING BRITISH SUBJECTS.

    STEAMSHIP ACCOMMODATION.
    STATE INSURANCE SCHEME.
    FISHING VESSELS.
    Whereupon Mr. SPEAKER, pursuant to the Order of the House of 17th July, proposed the Question, "That this House do now adjourn."
    Sir HENRY DALZIEL: At Question Time this afternoon I drew the attention of the Government to a matter which is of an extremely urgent character, namely, the provision that is being made for the Britishers who are anxious to return to their own country at the present time. It is notorious to hon. Members, who no doubt have had representations made to them on the subject, that there is an enormous amount of overcrowding on the boats passing from the different ports on the Continent and our own ports. This refers to Boulogne and Ostend particularly. I believe the Calais route is now stopped, and that the Hook of Holland route has been also materially affected. I do not think I am going too far when I say that some of the scenes witnessed there have been of a most horrifying character. A friend of mine, who came back yesterday, and who had been through the South African War, said he never, throughout the whole of the war, witnessed such scenes as he witnessed on returning from Ostend yesterday. Another friend of mine, a distinguished Member of the other House, who has had considerable experience of sailing, told me that unless the sea had been absolutely calm, so loaded was the boat, that it must inevitably have toppled over, and that thousands were left behind. It is easy to imagine the sort of struggles that are taking place to get on board the boats that are crossing, more especially as at the time the boat sails people think it is the last boat that is going to cross, and, of course, thousands have been unable to get across on the particular boat.
    I am not making any complaint with regard to railway companies and the way they are managing their trains, which is, I

    2043
    think, one of the finest exhibitions of railway management I have ever seen. I have just returned from Charing Cross, and there were seven trains from the Continent in the course of a very short time, and there are many more on the way up from Folkestone now. I am, however, asking the Government in this matter to use every effort they can to see that there are not only enough boats at the different ports, but even more than are required. People are coming from all parts of the Continent, and everyone wants to get home with the least possible delay. Added to that thousands of foreigners are leaving their own country and coming here. I am not particular about the foreigners. I am concerned about our own people, and I ask the House to note that many of these tourists and others have been in the trains for four or five days, instead of one or one and a half days. They are passing from Switzerland through the area that is affected, and they are subject entirely to the consideration of the German officers, and also going through the other territories the same trouble is awaiting them. I ask the Government, therefore, in the first place to see without delay that there are more than sufficient boats to bring any Britishers back to land at any of the ports affected. I am not sure whether it will be possible at all to come from the Hook of Holland. I doubt it. At Calais the passenger traffic is being diverted to Boulogne and that is making extreme pressure on that account, and, therefore, Boulogne and Ostend should be immediately looked after. As I am told some have had no food for three or four days and no money to buy any with, the state of things is very serious indeed. I am sure I shall have the sympathy of the Government in that matter. It is a great pity that this was not anticipated. The moment war was possible it was inevitable that there would be the rush there has been. I will also suggest that any boats that go over should take plenty of nourishing food with them. That is absolutely essential.
    The Government have to be very much alive to what they are doing in regard to Britishers who are abroad. They ought to communicate with the Vice-Consuls—I do not imagine that they have done so—and inform them in all the different countries that they ought to give every facility to Britishers who may ask their advice, and if necessary, and there are proper credentials, they ought to be authorised to
    2044
    supply money to them in order to buy food and come home. This is not the time to stand on technicalities. The House will support the Government in anything they do in a matter of that kind. The United States have set the splendid example of sending over for their own people and providing money to give them what they require until they get home. I am only asking that we shall send across the Channel and do for our people what America is doing so far as Americans in this country are concerned. I think it is important, more especially in Paris and the other capitals, that Britishers should know that the Home Government are thinking of them at present. At Boulogne there are 16,000 Britishers, practically in a pen, gathered from different parts of Germany, waiting until the opportunity is favourable for them to come home. That is a very serious matter. It is not only the inconvenience to our countrymen and women who are there with thousands of children, but it is the distress it is causing to their people at home. The Government would not go far wrong if they set up a special department to deal with the matter. They might obtain material assistance in association with one of the great passenger traffic companies. In the last half hour I have heard from Paris that the French Government is very generously informing all her station masters to give every assistance possible to British tourists. That will mean a very great deal, because they will have every facility for returning home. That is obviously not so so far as Germany is concerned or even Switzerland at present; and I should hope the hon. Gentleman would be able to assure us that these particular matters are receiving his earnest attention, and that everything will be done and publicity will be given to the fact that all the assistance the Government can give at this juncture will be given freely, and I am sure the House will support the Government in any such action.
    The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the BOARD of TRADE (Mr. J. M. Robertson): I am able to inform the House that as soon as the question was raised by my right hon. Friend to-day, communication was opened through the Foreign Office Consular Department with the Consuls at Boulogne, Ostend, Calais, and Havre, with a view to ascertaining the number of British refugees there who had to be provided for. As regards Antwerp, I understand the Foreign Office had already given instructions to the Consul

    2045
    to provide a ship and bring over those who were stranded there. The matter is being energetically gone into. As soon as we have an account of the numbers at the different ports requiring to be provided for, shipping accommodation will be arranged for through the Committee that is acting in control of the railways. I trust that the situation will be completely dealt with in a very short time. My hon. Friend's suggestions will be carefully dealt with. With regard to the question of over-crowding, we have given permission to exceed the usual passenger limit. At such a time and in such an emergency it seemed necessary to do so, but I need not assure him that the discretion of the masters of the ships will, of course, be consulted as regards the weather risks for the time being. Risks which might be taken in calm weather will not, of course, be taken in bad weather. The whole matter is receiving the anxious and energetic attention of the Department.
    Mr. PIKE PEASE: I understand that instructions have been given to the Consuls to advance money where necessary to people who, for the moment, are short of money. It might, perhaps, be in the interests of those who are feeling great anxiety if it was known that it was being done. Of course, at present there is a certain number of people who cannot communicate with their friends and relations in various parts of Europe, and if they knew the Government had this in hand it would allay a great deal of anxiety.
    Mr. ROBERTSON: I should like that to be drawn to the attention of the Foreign Office.
    Mr. C. E. PRICE: I should like to ask whether there is any information in regard to the position of British subjects in Berlin. I received a letter this morning with regard to two ladies who are there and whose friends had been quite unable to find out anything about them, and there is extreme anxiety as to the position of these people, not at the ports, but in Berlin and other places. I should like to know whether any negotiations are going on between the Government and the German Government as to the position of these people who happen to be there just now which would relieve some of the anxiety. I think some general statement ought to be made because at present they can get no information whatever.
    Mr. HAYES FISHER: The hon. Gentleman (Mr. Robertson) only mentioned
    2046
    certain ports in Holland, Belgium and France with which the Government were communicating. Might I suggest to him, from my own knowledge, that there is a certain number of Britishers abroad who are endeavouring to escape by way of Switzerland and Italy, and he might address some communications to those who represent us in Italy, and there, I think, he will find that very likely many of our countrymen are stranded there for want of money, having to make a very long journey home, possibly by sea from Naples. I should be very much obliged if he would communicate also with the representatives of some syndicate in Italy with regard to making arrangements.
    Mr. ROBERTSON: I will undertake to have inquiries made through the Foreign Office Consular Department of the Consuls at these ports also.
    Mr. T. P. O'CONNOR: May I suggest that the hon. Gentleman should send some food over to Boulogne. The situation there is much more acute than people realise. I got a most touching letter from a lady who lives close to Boulogne. She and her grandson, both French, were without money and without food and begged me to send some biscuits and canned meats over to them, which I was able to do. When French people are in that state of destitution, it is easy to imagine how much greater must be the destitution of many thousands of our countrymen and women who are shut up in Boulogne. I therefore put it as a matter of necessity that the Board should send food as well as boats. I understand also that the service from Ostend has been considerably-diminished. I would suggest that representations should be made that either this Government or the Government of Belgium should restore a number of the boats which have been temporarily taken off to take these people to Boulogne or some other port.
    Mr. ROBERT HARCOURT: I wish to make a brief comment on the question which I asked this afternoon with regard to the position of fishermen. I was informed by the Admiralty that they are not able to make any immediate arrangements for the special protection of the fishing fleet, and I presume a very large number of fishermen will soon find themselves in a most serious position, and I hope the whole situation will engage the earnest consideration of the Government.
    Sir A. MARKHAM: The House is under a great debt of gratitude to my hon. Friend (Sir H. Dalziel) for bringing this matter forward. I live near the coast and I had a telephone message this morning to say that the amount of destitution is something appalling. I am not satisfied with what the Board of Trade are doing. The Secretary of State is going to refer this to a Committee. A boat ought to be sent to-night. It would be easy to send a boat out from Folkestone across to Boulogne to-night. It is not necessary to make inquiries. From information that I have and that my hon. Friend has, it is an absolute fact that these people are leaving there in a destitute condition. I hope he will not put this through the usual channels of a Government Department which must be slow, this being an emergency and a great number of our countrymen undergoing great hardships.
    Mr. TICKLER: I wish to refer to the appalling state of affairs with regard to the fishermen at Grimsby. The whole of the fishing fleet is held up on account of the war, 10,000 fishermen are without employment, and their wives and families are likely to suffer very great privations in the near future. And what I wanted to bring before the Government was this: Will the offer which the Chancellor of the Exchequer made this afternoon apply to the fishery fleet? The people of Grimsby would like to know whether the Government would be prepared to insure the fishing fleet, the value of which amounts to from £2,500,000 to £3,000,000. It is well known that the prosperity of Grimsby is wrapped up in the fishing trade. The whole of the trade from the port is practically dependent on the fishing trade, and they are in a very serious position. At present the insurance is mutual insurance, and what they would like to know is whether any assistance can be given to the fishing trade so that they would be able to go to sea and follow their vocation, particularly as it is a very important item in the food of this country.
    Mr. ROBERTSON: With regard to the question of fishermen, it has already been under consideration, The great difficulty is in regard to fishing off the Dogger Bank. That is regarded as so dangerous as to be practically a non-insurable risk. If the fishermen could see their way to fish inshore and go round to the West Coast, I
    2048
    trust it will be possible to make insurance arrangements for them. I think the House will remember that in the insurance scheme which was put before the House the Admiralty reserve the right to veto certain voyages for the ships they insure, and under that scheme they would feel bound to veto the inclusion in the scheme of any such dangerous waters as the Dogger Bank, though I have no doubt that the courage and the hardihood of the fishermen would take them there. Subject to the limitations as to excessively dangerous waters, I trust it will be found possible to insure the hulls of the fishing vessels. As the House knows, the fishermen have already been recommended to conduct their operations in inshore waters.
    Mr. R. HARCOURT: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that inshore fishing is not confined to territorial waters?
    Mr. ROBERTSON: I believe not, but the recommendation is simply that they should fish in the less excessively dangerous waters. I am unable to go beyond that, and I cannot express to the House that they will be brought within the insurance system. The hon. Baronet (Sir A. Markham) misunderstood what I said about the Committee. I think I mentioned that the Committee was the Committee now in command of the railways. That Committee has the power of taking immediate action. I did not refer to a Departmental Committee. The Committee which is now in control of the railways is precisely the authority to take immediate action in the matter.
    Sir A. MARKHAM: Is the Committee sitting at the present time?
    Mr. ROBERTSON: It is sitting at this moment.
    Sir A. MARKHAM: Have any steps been taken to bring the matter before my right hon. Friend?
    Mr. ROBERTSON: I cannot say what measures were taken before, but I know that the Committee is in continuous session, and that it has under consideration the subject referred to by the hon. Member for the Scotland Division of Liverpool (Mr. T. P. O'Connor), namely, the sending of food to Boulogne. I will, of course, draw attention to the matter.
    Mr. WING: May I ask whether the statement which has been made in regard to fishing vessels would apply to the Atlantic—to Faröe and the islands? These are all fishing grounds.
    Mr. ROBERTSON: That will be a question for the Admiralty to decide. The
    2050
    Admiralty will reserve the right to pronounce as to what are dangerous voyages. I cannot say whether they would decide so in the case referred to.
    Question put, and agreed to.
    Adjourned accordingly at Twenty-seven minutes before Eight of the clock.