§ This Act may be cited as the East African Protectorates (Loans) Act, 1914.
§ Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."
§ Lord A. THYNNEI do not want to raise a frivolous point, but I think the Colonial Office ought to have found a better title than that of the East African Protectorates (Loans) Act. I think the right hon. Gentleman will agree with me when I say that in the Colonial service the words "East African" have a technical meaning, and Nyasaland has never been included in the East African Protectorates. This is quite a new departure. When ever we talk of East Africa we always keep in our minds the old Mackenzie Territories Imperial British East Africa. Uganda has never been included in East Africa, and it has never been regarded as an East African Protectorate. It has had a purely technical meaning confined to the Coast Territory, and does not include either Nyasaland or Uganda. I suggest to the right hon. Gentleman that he is making a new departure, which, if it appears to this House to be a comparatively small matter, does at the same time violate a good deal of local sentiment. I do not want to obstruct this Bill, but I would ask the right hon. Gentleman to find a new title and to pay some attention to local sentiment in this matter.
Mr. HARCOURTI think that really the title on the whole meets the circumstances of the case. Those Protectorates are on the east side, and therefore this is clearly a comprehensive title which will do very well for the Statute Book, and we can retain the other names for ourselves. I think this title geographically describes those Protectorates, and I hope the Noble Lord will not press his objection.
§ Sir F. BANBURYIf the right hon. Gentleman looks at page 1 of the Bill 150 he will see that this is a Bill "to authorise certain loans to the Protectorates of British East Africa, Nyasaland, and Uganda." Clause 3 provides "This Act may be cited as the East African Protectorates (Loans) Act, 1914," and why does it not mention Nyasaland and Uganda?
§ Sir F. BANBURYIt may be a short title, but it is just as well to have it accurate, and, as my hon. Friend says that the words "East African Protectorate" have never in any Act of Parliament included Nyasaland and Uganda, why should we, for the sake of leaving out three words, have a title which does not really express the meaning of the Bill? It is not, however, a very important point, and though I think it would have been better to have had a proper title, I would urge my hon. Friend not to press his objection.
§ Mr. W. RUTHERFORDI think my hon. Friend is rather too exacting in asking that the title of a Bill brought in by the present Government should describe either accurately or adequately the object of the Bill. If we had pressed that proposition to extremes we should have had great difficulty in passing a good many of the last Clauses of our Bills. I think the right hon. Gentleman is perfectly right when he says, "Call the Bill anything you like so long as we get the Bill. Make the title as short as you like and cut out any real meaning in it. It is only for the purpose of citing." That we should waste any time in discussing the title is such an absurd proposition that I venture to think that we might almost persuade ourselves with some difficulty to accept the Clause as proposed.
§ Lord A. THYNNEMy hon. Friends have entirely misunderstood me in this matter. My real point is a very serious one. It is to draw the attention of the Committee to the amazing ignorance of Imperial geography on the part of the 151 right hon. Gentleman who is at present the Secretary of State for the Colonies. It is really astounding to anyone who has ever travelled in those parts of the world that the right hon. Gentleman should include either Nyasaland or Uganda in the term "East Africa." The term "East African Protectorate" has got a technical meaning, which confines it to a particular area on the East Coast of Africa. All that territory which is comprised under the term of "East Africa" is north of the Lake Tanganyika, the district of Tanganyika, and the district of Nyasaland, which is north of the Zambesi, has always been regarded as Central Africa. South of the Limpopo is South Africa. It is one of the technical terms which have always been current in Acts of Parliament and Orders in Council, and, until this Bill was introduced by the right hon. Gentleman, it was current in this House. I have only two objections to this particular Clause. In the first place, I think that any Government—I do not care whether it is
§ a Government representing hon. Gentlemen opposite or hon. Gentlemen on this side of the House—ought to be accurate in technical details. I think it is one of the first things which this House has a right to ask any Government: that they should not do their work in a slipshod or slovenly way. It is a slovenly term to include Nyasaland in the East African Protectorates. My other objection is the amazing ignorance of geography displayed by the right hon. Gentleman. I think the least we can ask is, not that he should acquaint himself with the details of Colonial administration—that might be too great a task for him—but that he should at least apprise himself of the ordinary terminology of the Colonial Office, which has obtained not for a few years only, but ever since this country has had any possessions in East Africa. I intend to press the matter to a Division.
§ Question put, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."
§ The Committee divided: Ayes, 153; Noes, 40.
153| Division No. 76.] | AYES. | [10.45 p.m. |
| Abraham, William (Dublin, Harbour) | Fiennes, Hon. Eustace Edward | Macpherson, James Ian |
| Acland, Francis Dyke | Flavin, Michael Joseph | MacVeagh, Jeremiah |
| Adamson, William | Furness, Sir Stephen Wilson | McKenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald |
| Alden, Percy | Gill, A. H. | Martin, Joseph |
| Allen, Rt. Hon. Charles P. (Stroud) | Gladstone, W. G. C. | Molloy, Michael |
| Baker, Joseph Allen (Finsbury, E.) | Glanville, Harold James | Mond, Rt. Hon. Sir Alfred |
| Balfour, Sir Robert (Lanark) | Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford | Montagu, Hon. E. S. |
| Baring, Sir Godfrey (Barnstaple) | Guest, Major Hon. C. H. C. (Pembroke) | Morgan, George Hay |
| Barran, Rowland Hurst (Leeds, N.) | Guest, Hon. Frederick E. (Dorset, E.) | Morton, Alpheus Cleophas |
| Beauchamp, Sir Edward | Gwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway) | Munro, Rt. Hon. Robert |
| Bonn, W. W. (T. Hamlets, St. George) | Hackett, John | Needham, Christopher T. |
| Black, Arthur W. | Harcourt, Rt. Hon. L. (Rossendale) | Nicholson, Sir Charles N. (Doncaster) |
| Boland, John Pius | Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose) | Nolan, Joseph |
| Booth, Frederick Handel | Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, West) | O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) |
| Bowerman, C. W. | Havelock-Allan, Sir Henry | O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.) |
| Brady, Patrick Joseph | Henderson, Arthur (Durham) | O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool) |
| Bryce, J. Annan | Henry, Sir Charles | O'Dowd, John |
| Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas | Herbert, General Sir Ivor (Mon., S.) | O'Kelly, Edward P. (Wicklow, W.) |
| Buxton, Noel (Norfolk, North) | Hewart, Gordon | O'Malley, William |
| Byles, Sir William Pollard | Higham, John Sharp | O'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, S.) |
| Cawley, Harold T. (Lancs., Heywood) | Hinds, John | O'Shaughnessy, P. J. |
| Chapple, Dr. William Allen | Hodge, John | Outhwaite, R. L. |
| Clancy, John Joseph | Hogge, James Myles | Parker, James (Halifax) |
| Clough, William | Holmes, Daniel Turner | Parry, Thomas H. |
| Collins, Sir Stephen (Lambeth) | Howard, Hon. Geoffrey | Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek) |
| Condon, Thomas Joseph | Hudson, Walter | Phillips, John (Longford, S.) |
| Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. | Hughes, Spencer Leigh | Pointer, Joseph |
| Crooks, William | Jardine, Sir J. (Roxburgh) | Pratt, J. W. |
| Crumley, Patrick | Jones, Edgar (Merthyr Tydvil) | Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central) |
| Cullinan, John | Jones, J. Towyn (Carmarthen, East) | Pringle, William M. R. |
| Davies, Timothy (Lincs., Louth) | Jones, William (Carnarvonshire) | Radford, G. H. |
| Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.) | Jones, William S. Glyn- (Stepney) | Raffan, Peter Wilson |
| Dawes, James Arthur | Kellaway, Frererick George | Redmond, John E. (Waterford) |
| Delany, William | Kelly, Edward | Rees, Sir J. D. |
| Denman, Hon. Richard Douglas | Kenyon, Barnet | Richardson, Thomas (Whitehaven) |
| Donelan, Captain A. | King, Joseph | Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln) |
| Doris, William | Lambert, Rt. Hon. G. (Devon, S. Molton) | Robertson, John M. (Tyneside) |
| Duncan, J. Hastings (Yorks, Otley) | Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Crickdale) | Robertson, Sidney |
| Edwards, Sir Francis (Radnor) | Lardner, James C. R. | Roch, Walter F. (Pembroke) |
| Edwards, John Hugh (Glamorgan, Mid) | Levy, Sir Maurice | Roe, Sir Thomas |
| Esslemont, George Birnie | Lewis, Rt. Hon. John Herbert | Rowlands, James |
| Falconer, James | Lynch, A. A. | Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland) |
| Fenwick, Rt. Hon. Charles | Macdonald, J. Ramsay (Leicester) | Samuel, J (Stockton-on-Tees) |
| Ffrench, Peter | Maclean, Donald | Scott, A. MacCallum (Glas., Bridgeton) |
| Field, William | Macnamara, Rt. Hon. Dr. T. J. | Seely, Rt. Hon. Colonel J. E. B. |
| Shortt, Edward | Wedgwood, Josiah C. | Wilson, John (Durham, Mid) |
| Smith, Albert (Lancs., Clitheroe) | White, J. Dundas (Glasgow, Tradeston) | Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton) |
| Thomas, J. H. | White, Sir Luke (Yorks, E. R.) | Wing, Thomas Edward |
| Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton) | White, Patrick (Meath, North) | Yeo, Alfred William |
| Verney, Sir Harry | Whittaker, Rt. Hon. Thomas P. | |
| Wardle, George J. | Whyte, A. F. (Perth) | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr. |
| Webb, H. | Williams, John (Glamorgan) | Illingworth and Mr. Gulland. |
| NOES. | ||
| Amery, L. C. M. S. | Dalrymple, Viscount | Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall) |
| Baird, J. L. | Gilmour, Captain John | Rutherford, Watson (L'pool, W. Derby) |
| Baring, Major Hon. Guy V. (Winchester) | Goldsmith, Frank | Samuel, Samuel (Wandsworth) |
| Barnes, George N. | Gordon, Hon. John Edward (Brighton) | Sanders, Robert Arthur |
| Barnston, Harry | Grant, J. A. | Sandys, G. J. |
| Bathurst, Charles (Wilts, Wilton) | Greene, W. R. | Stanley, Major Hon. G. F. (Preston) |
| Benn, Arthur Shirley (Plymouth) | Gretton, John | Strauss, Arthur (Paddington, North) |
| Benn, Ion Hamilton (Greenwich) | Hall, Frederick (Dulwich) | Talbot, Lord Edmund |
| Boyton, James | Henderson, Major H. (Berks, Abingdon) | Thorne, William (West Ham) |
| Burn, Colonel C. R. | Hoare, Samuel John Gurney | Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent) |
| Carlile, Sir Edward Hildred | Hope, Major J. A. (Midlothian) | White, Major G. D. (Lancs., Southport) |
| Cassel, Felix | Mount, William Arthur | |
| Chaloner, Colonel R. G. W. | Peto, Basil Edward | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Sir F. |
| Cooper, Sir Richard Ashmole | Rawlinson, J. F. P. | Banbury and Lord Alexander Thynne. |
| Craik, Sir Henry |