§ (1) An advance shall not be made in pursuance of this Act until the legislative authority of the Protectorate to the Government of which the advance is to be made have provided to the satisfaction of the Treasury and the Secretary of State—
- (a) for raising and appropriating and duly applying the loan;
- (b) for charging on the general revenues and assets of the Protectorate, with priority over any subsequent charges, the principal of the loan; and
- (c) for so charging and also for remitting to the Treasury in such manner as the Treasury determine—
- (i) such yearly or half-yearly payments on account of the interest on, and the repayment of the principal of, the loan as the Treasury fix; and
- (ii) interest at such rate as the Treasury fix on any such payment in arrear; and
- (d) for raising or securing the raising of sufficient revenue to meet the above charges.
§ (2) Every Act or ordinance of the legislative authority of the Protectorate which in any way impairs the validity or priority of any such charge or diminishes the revenue to be raised as above mentioned shall, so far as it impairs or diminishes the same, be void unless the consent of the Treasury and the Secretary of State has been previously obtained, and no alteration in the constitution of the Government of any of the three Protectorates whereby the control of the Secretary of State over the finances of the Protectorate is impaired shall be assented to by the Secretary of State, unless the Treasury are satisfied that satisfactory arrangements have been made for the repayment of any money outstanding on account of advances made under this Act to that Protectorate.
The CHAIRMANAn Amendment of which the hon. Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme (Mr. Wedgwood) has given notice is too vague.
§ Mr. WEDGWOODMay I ask whether the Amendment referred to is that about specified lands?
§ Mr. WEDGWOODMay I urge that this is of exereme importance. At present lands in these Colonies are the property of the Colonies. I think if certain specified lands were mortgaged in respect of the payment of this debt, the security to this country would be far greater than by relying solely upon receipts from taxes.
The CHAIRMANThat is really so. If the hon. Member could put the Amendment in a form in which it could go into the Act of Parliament, I will consider whether it is in order.
§ Mr. WEDGWOODMay I move my Amendment in this form "for charging on the land alongside of the railway, and on the general revenues and assets."
§ Mr. WEDGWOODMay I suggest the precise form in the case of the Uganda Railway, "for charging on a strip one mile wide on each side of the railway, and on the general revenues and assets." In the case of the Uganda Railway there was a strip taken on each side of the railway.
The CHAIRMANI do not think that would meet my point. I think the hon. Member's first Amendment, which is in order, is to leave out paragraph (c) (ii.), after the words "interest at," in order to insert "five per cent. per annum."
§ Mr. WEDGWOODI beg to move, in Sub-section (1), paragraph (c) (11), to omit the words "such rate as the Treasury fix," and to insert instead thereof the words "five per cent. per annum."
This Amendment is less important than the Amendment which I was not allowed to move. Its object is to take simply out of the hands of the Treasury the fixing of the rate of interest on arrears of payment of these loans. I do not know what principle guides the Treasury in this matter. We were told nothing about it on the Second Reading. Surely, in dealing with communities which are not in a very secure condition so far as paying interest on these loans are concerned, it is just as well in the letter of the bond to set forth the rate of interest which you are going to charge on moneys that are in arrears! I do not know what the Treasury has charged in previous cases. There 139 was a loan of £30,000,000 to the Transvaal, but there have been no arrears of payment there. But there has been some stipulation made as to the rate of interest on instalments in arrears, and I would like to know what that is before leaving it to the Treasury to fix the rate in this case. There must have been some arrangement made in the case of Jamaica, and these other Colonies, which the Colonial Secretary mentioned as having had a loan in 1899. I think that in all these cases it should be set forth in the Act of Parliament what the rate of interest should be. In the cases to which I have referred I believe that the instalments have all been paid up. But I do not think that anybody who has studied the finance of these three Protectorates in recent years can be quite certain that they will pay their instalments without a Grant-in-Aid. The Treasury at present are going to charge these Colonies for the loans a rate which will just repay the cost of raising the money. They are taking such precautions to see that the Protectorates are not charged a farthing too much, that some indication should be given that the House desires that they are to be charged on arrears, not what they are charged on the original loan, but that they should pay the same rate of interest on arrears as an ordinary person would have to pay. Five per cent. is the very least that an ordinary person would have to pay on arrears. There is no use making a special form of business for Protectorates and Colonies. If you treat them just the same as any other customer, your relations with them are likely to be more satisfactory in the long run than if you give one privilege in one direction and another in another direction, for you will then always have this bargaining with the Colonial Office, and you will be likely to have more trouble than you have had up to the present by this financing of a somewhat shady financial investment.
Mr. HARCOURTMy hon. Friend has recommended his Amendment with a frankness which I would hardly have dared myself to adopt by describing it as unimportant, though he declares in a significant phrase that he regards this particular form of investment, as a shady one. He only moves his Amendment to the Subsection of this Clause which deals with payments that may be in arrears. I do not contemplate such arrears, but if they do arrive I think that it would be better 140 that the Treasury should be left to fix the rate which is appropriate at the time, a rate which will cause no loss to the British taxpayer, but which will not be unnecessarily oppressive to those in the Protectorates who may have to pay for these unexpected arrears. Therefore, I think it quite right to leave this discretion to the Treasury. If the hon. Member has had any experience of the exercise of the discretion of the Treasury with regard to the rate of interest, I do not think that he need be in the least afraid of the Treasury allowing the British taxpayer or anyone else in this country to suffer.
§ Sir F. BANBURYThe right hon. Gentleman says that the Treasury will charge such a rate of interest as will cause no loss to the British taxpayer, but the right hon. Gentleman cannot bind the Treasury, and that is not in the Bill. If that is what the Treasury is going to do, why not put it in the Bill? Clause 1 provides that every such advance shall bear interest at such a rate, not less than 2¾ per cent. per annum, as the Treasury and the Secretary of State may fix as being sufficient to enable it to be made without loss to the Local Loans Fund. But that applies only to the advance. If it is right that an advance should bear such an interest as shall not cause loss to the Local Loans Fund, and if it is right to put that into the Bill, is it not right to put into the Bill that arrears shall bear a certain fixed rate of interest so that it may not be left to the Treasury to do what it likes? The right hon. Gentleman gives us the assurance that the Treasury will see that the British taxpayer shall suffer no loss. Why not put that into the Bill? It may be that the hon. Member's Amendment proposing 5 per cent. is not the right one: but why not put in some such words as appear in Sub-section (4) of Clause 1? I cannot conceive why the right hon. Gentleman will not accept that. I have been thinking why it is that he has always so persistently refused Amendments, which he says are quite right and intends to carry them out, though he will not put them in the Bill. It has at last dawned upon my feeble intelligence that the right hon. Gentleman does not want to have a Report stage. That may be quite right from the point of view of the right hon. Gentleman, but it is not right from the point of view of the taxpayer. To avoid the Report stage is not, in my opinion, a sufficient argument for not putting in some 141 words by which the Treasury can fix the interest to be paid on arrears. I think the Amendment is an important one, and I think, further, that this Committee ought not to lose control over the finances of the country. On every occasion now when we want to put something into a Bill in Committee which shall bind the Treasury or the Government we are told that it is not necessary, that the Treasury will see it is all right, or that whoever is the Minister concerned will see that it is all right. That is not my idea of the functions of this House. I am glad to see the hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Labour party in his place, and I am sure he will support me on this occasion. I think we ought really to see that we do exercise that control which was the original reason for the foundation of this House. I will therefore support the hon. Member if he goes to a Division. I would have preferred if he had put his Amendment in some other form—for instance, using the words of Sub-section (4) of Clause 1. I do not know whether he can alter it now, but, in any case, I shall certainly support his Amendment.
§ 10.0 P.M.
§ Mr. WATSON RUTHERFORDAt the first glance it would appear that lines 19 and 20 are not necessary, but when we come to the payment referred to as being in arrear, that is a payment partly of principal and partly of interest, and to the extent that it is a payment of principal it is obvious that the rate of interest would be the rate of interest originally agreed upon for the principal money; but to the extent that it is a payment of interest in arrear, it would not be possible for that to carry interest again unless there were an express enactment to that effect. Therefore this Clause which is inserted is a very unusual Clause, and it is with the object of enabling the Treasury to recover interest upon interest. It will be observed that the loan is to be repaid by certain payments, each consisting partly of principal and partly of interest. If one of those payments is in arrear, the point that we are now considering is what rate of interest should be charged upon a payment in arrear. If there are payments in arrear to the extent of principal, the interest would be the original interest which would be fixed under the preceding Clause; but, to the extent that it is interest, no interest whatever could be recovered upon the interest in arrear, because that would be compound interest and would not be recoverable under the contract. The effect, 142 therefore, is to try and get for the Treasury interest upon interest, and if the Treasury is going to fix the rate of interest which they are going to charge upon interest in arrear before the loan is made, then I confess that it is one of the most extravagant bargains that I have ever seen. I have never heard of such a thing in any mortgage, or in any loan or security, and I should think that the whole Clause is in itself ridiculous and almost impossible. If the loan is going to be made in such a manner that there is no real commercial probability of the payments of interest and principal being properly made, there is no occasion to provide for the payment of interest upon interest in arrear. On the other hand, if it is anticipated that there is going to be default, and that the interest will not be paid when it ought to be paid, then there ought to be some provision under which the whole loan could in some way or other be recovered; because making a provision of this sort simply for the purpose of collecting interest upon interest is a ridiculous manner of trying to make good the difficulty which has originated in the whole proposition. I confess that I see a great difficulty in supporting the hon. Member who has moved this Amendment, because it would be even more ridiculous to fix in advance the rate of 5 per cent. I should have liked to move the omission of lines 10 and 20.
Mr. HARCOURTI would point out what perhaps the hon. Member has forgotten, that the words of the Clause are taken from the Act passed by the Conservative Government in 1890.
§ Mr. W. RUTHERFORDThat is no excuse.
Mr. HARCOURTNo excuse whatever, but they are taken textually from that Act and, during the fifteen years they have been in operation, they have not been to the disadvantage of the Treasury, the Government, or the Protectorate, and they have proved to be a workable mile.
§ Mr. W. RUTHERFORDHave the periodical payments, including instalments of principal and interest, been in arrear, or has the interest on interest been in arrear? If not, it is no excuse to say that somebody has passed it and that it was not wanted.
§ Mr. MARTINI accept the assurances of the right hon. Gentleman that the Treasury will perform their duties as the Department is at present constituted, but it may be, at some time or another, perhaps a very long time hence, that hon. Gentlemen opposite will be sitting on these benches, and my confidence in the Treasury might not be so great in those circumstances. Therefore I must join with other hon. Members in pressing to have these words in the Bill. It will not hurt the present Government, because they would do it in any event, and it will be some protection in the case of some subsequent Government—it might be a Labour Government—which might require to be bound by the strict words of the Statute.
§ Mr. WEDGWOODThe right hon. Gentleman asks us to trust the Treasury because it is always such a wise and sound institution, and he says that if I had had any experience of the Treasury I should know that they were to be trusted. I have had some experience, because I was Par-
§ liamentary private secretary to the present Minister of Agriculture.
§ Mr. CROOKSThen you have been blacklegging.
§ Mr. WEDGWOODThe Treasury in those days would never have dreamt of passing a Bill like this at all. The Treasury then, under Sir George Murray and Sir Edward Hamilton, would not have allowed such a Bill to come before the House of Commons. It is only because we now see a Treasury run on very different lines, ready to sanction Grants for "all-red" routes, for submarine cables round the world, and for objects of this kind, we get a little more circumspect as to the amount of latitude we allow them in other matters. I should like to see greater control of the finances of the country by Parliament rather than by the Treasury.
§ Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Clause."
§ The Committee divided: Ayes, 156; Noes, 33.
145| Division No. 73.] | AYES. | [10.7 p.m. |
| Abraham, William (Dublin, Harbour) | Falconer, James | Lynch, Arthur Alfred |
| Acland, Francis Dyke | Fenwick, Rt. Hon. Charles | Maclean, Donald |
| Alden, Percy | Ffrench, Peter | Macnamara, Rt. Hon. Dr. T. J. |
| Allen, Rt. Hon. Charles P. (Stroud) | Field, William | Macpherson, James Ian |
| Baird, John Lawrence | Flavin, Michael Joseph | MacVeagh, Jeremiah |
| Baker, Joseph Allen (Finsbury, E.) | Furuess, Sir Stephen Wilson | McKenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald |
| Balfour, Sir Robert (Lanark) | Gill, A. H. | Molloy, Michael |
| Baring, Major Hon. Guy V. (Winchester) | Gilmour, Captain John | Mond, Rt. Hon. Sir Alfred |
| Baring, Sir Godfrey (Barnstaple) | Gladstone, W. G. C. | Montagu, Hon. E. S. |
| Barran, Rowland Hurst (Leeds, N.) | Glanville, H. J. | Morgan, George Hay |
| Beauchamp, Sir Edward | Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford | Mount, William Arthur |
| Benn, Arthur Shirley (Plymouth) | Goldsmith, Frank | Munro, Rt. Hon. Robert |
| Benn, W. W. (T. Hamlets, St. George) | Gordon, Hon. John Edward (Brighton) | Needham, Christopher T. |
| Black, Arthur W. | Grant, James Augustus | Nicholson, Sir Charles N. (Doncaster) |
| Boland, John Pius | Gulland, John William | Nolan, Joseph |
| Booth, Frederick Handel | Gwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway) | O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) |
| Brady, Patrick Joseph | Hall, Frederick (Dulwich) | O'Connor, John (kildare, N.) |
| Bryce, J. Annan | Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Lewis (Rossendale) | O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool) |
| Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas | Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose) | O'Dowd, John |
| Buxton, Noel (Norfolk, North) | Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, West) | O'Kelly, Edward P. (Wicklow, W.) |
| Byles, Sir William Pollard | Havelock-Allan, Sir Henry | O'Malley, William |
| Carlile, Sir Edward Hildred | Henderson, Major H. (Berks, Abingdon) | O'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, S.) |
| Cawley, Harold T. (Lancs., Heywood) | Henderson, J. M. (Aberdeen, W.) | O'Shaughnessy, P. J. |
| Chaloner, Colonel R. G. W. | Henry, Sir Charles | Parry, Thomas H. |
| Chapple, Dr. William Allen | Herbert, General Sir Ivor (Mon., S.) | Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek) |
| Clancy, John Joseph | Hewart, Gordon | Peto, Basil Edward |
| Clough, William | Higham, John Sharp | Phillips, John (Longford, S.) |
| Collins, Sir Stephen (Lambeth) | Hinds, John | Pointer, Joseph |
| Condon, Thomas Joseph | Hodge, John | Pratt, J. W. |
| Cooper, Richard Ashmole | Holmes, Daniel Turner | Pringle, William M. R. |
| Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. | Hope, Major J. A. (Midlothian) | Radford, G. H. |
| Craik, Sir Henry | Howard, Hon. Geoffrey | Raffan, Peter Wilson |
| Crooks, William | Hughes, Spencer Leigh | Redmond, John E. (Waterford) |
| Crumley, Patrick | Illingworth, Percy H. | Rees, Sir J. D. |
| Cullinan, John | Jardine, Sir John (Roxburgh) | Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln) |
| Davies, Timothy (Lincs., Louth) | Jones, Edgar (Merthyr Tydvil) | Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall) |
| Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.) | Jones, J. Towyn (Carmarthen, East) | Robertson, John M. (Tyneside) |
| Dawes, James Arthur | Jones, William (Carnarvonshire) | Robinson, Sidney |
| Delany, William | Jones, William S. Glyn- (Stepney) | Roch, Walter F. (Pembroke) |
| Denman, Hon. Richard Douglas | Kellaway, Frederick George | Roe, Sir Thomas |
| Donelan, Captain A. | Kelly, Edward | Rowlands, James |
| Doris, William | King, Joseph | Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland) |
| Duncan, J. Hastings (Yorks, Otley) | Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade) | Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees) |
| Edwards, Sir Francis (Radnor) | Lardner, James C. R. | Samuel, Samuel (Wandsworth) |
| Edwards, John Hugh (Glamorgan, Mid) | Levy, Sir Maurice | Sanders, Robert Arthur |
| Esslemont, John Birnie | Lewis, Rt. Hon. John Herbert | Scott, A. MacCalium (Glas., Bridgeton) |
| Seely, Rt. Hon. Colonel J. E. B. | Thynne, Lord Alexander | Wilson, John (Durham, Mid) |
| Shortt, Edward | Verney, Sir Harry | Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton) |
| Smith, Albert (Lancs., Clitheroe) | White, J. Dundas, (Glasgow, Tradeston) | Wing, Thomas Edward |
| Stanley, Hon. G. F. (Preston) | White, Sir Luke (Yorks, E. R.) | Yeo, Alfred William |
| Sutton, John E. | White, Patrick (Meath, North) | |
| Talbot, Lord Edmund | Whittaker, Rt. Hon. Sir Thomas P. | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Captain |
| Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton) | Whyte, Alexander F. (Perth) | Guest and Mr. Webb. |
| NOES. | ||
| Adamsen, William | Greene, W. R. | Rutherford, Watson (L'pool, W. Derby) |
| Banbury, Sir Frederick George | Gretton, John | Sandys, G. J. |
| Barnes, George N. | Henderson, Arthur (Durham) | Strauss, Arthur (Paddington, North) |
| Barnston, Harry | Hoare, S. J. G. | Thomas, James Henry |
| Bathurst, Charles (Wilts, Wilton) | Hudson, Walter | Thorne, William (West Ham) |
| Benn, Ion Hamilton (Greenwich) | Macdonald, J. Ramsay (Leicester) | Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent) |
| Bowerman, Charles W. | Martin, Joseph | Wardle, George J. |
| Boyton, James | Morton, Alpheus Cleophas | White, Major G. D. (Lancs., Southport) |
| Burn, Colonel C. R. | Parker, James (Halifax) | Williams, John (Glamorgan) |
| Cassel, Felix | Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central) | |
| Cecil, Lord R. (Herts, Hitchin) | Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr. |
| Dairymple, Viscount | Richardson, Thomas (Whitehaven) | Wedgwood and Mr. Hogge. |
§ Mr. HARCOURT rose in his place, and claimed to move, "That the Question 'That the Clause stand part of the Bill' be now put."
146§ Question put, "That the Question 'That the Clause stand part of the Bill' be now put."
§ The Committee divided: Ayes, 132; Noes, 57.
147| Division No. 74.] | AYES. | [10.16 p.m. |
| Abraham, William (Dublin, Harbour) | Gladstone, W. G. C. | Nicholson, Sir Charles N. (Doncaster) |
| Acland, Francis Dyke | Glanville, H. J | Nolan, Joseph |
| Alien, Percy | Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford | O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) |
| Allen, Rt. Hon. Charles P. (Stroud) | Gulland, John William | O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.) |
| Baker, Joseph Allen (Finsbury, E.) | Gwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway) | O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool) |
| Balfour, Sir Robert (Lanark) | Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Lewis (Rossendale) | O'Dowd, John |
| Barnes, George N. | Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose) | O'Kelly, Edward P. (Wicklow, W.) |
| Barran, Rowland Hurst (Leeds, N.) | Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, West) | O'Malley, William |
| Beauchamp, Sir Edward | Havelock-Allan, Sir Henry | O'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, S.) |
| Benn, Arthur Shirley (Plymouth) | Henderson, John M. (Aberdeen, W.) | O'Shaughnessy, P. J. |
| Benn, W. W. (T. Hamlets, St. George) | Henry, Sir Charles | Parry, Thomas H. |
| Black, Arthur W. | Herbert, General Sir Ivor (Mon., S.) | Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek) |
| Boland, John Pius | Hewart, Gordon | Phillips, John (Longford, S.) |
| Bowerman, Charles W. | Higham, John Sharp | Pointer, Joseph |
| Brady, Patrick Joseph | Hinds, John | Pratt, J. W. |
| Bryce, J. Annan | Holmes, Daniel Turner | Pringle, William M. R. |
| Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas | Howard, Hon. Geoffrey | Radford, G. H. |
| Buxton, Noel (Norfolk, North) | Hughes, Spencer Leigh | Redmond, John E. (Waterford) |
| Byles, Sir William pollard | Illingworth, Percy H. | Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln) |
| Cawley, Harold T. (Lancs., Heywood) | Jardine, Sir J. (Roxburgh) | Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside) |
| Chapple, Dr. William Allen | Jones, Edgar (Merthyr Tydvil) | Robinson, Sydney |
| Clancy, John Joseph | Jones, J. Towyn (Carmarthen, East) | Roch, Walter F. (Pembroke) |
| Clough, William | Jones, William (Carnarvonshire) | Roe, Sir Thomas |
| Collins, Sir Stephen (Lambeth) | Jones, William S. Glyn- (Stepney) | Rowlands, James |
| Condon, Thomas Joseph | Kellaway, Frederick George | Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland) |
| Crooks, William | Kelly, Edward | Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees) |
| Crumley, Patrick | King, Joseph | Scott, A. MacCallum (Glas., Bridgeton) |
| Cullinan, John | Lambert, Rt. Hon. G. (Devon, S. Molton) | Seely, Rt. Hon. Colonel J. E. B. |
| Davies, Timothy (Lincs., Louth) | Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade) | Shortt, Edward |
| Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.) | Lardner, James C. R. | Smith, Albert (Lancs., Clitheree) |
| Dawes, J. A. | Levy, Sir Maurice | Sutton, John E. |
| Delany, William | Lewis, Rt. Hon. John Herbert | Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton) |
| Denman, Hon. Richard Douglas | Lynch, Arthur Alfred | Verney, Sir Harry. |
| Donelan, Captain A. | Maclean, Donald | Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent) |
| Doris, William | Macnamara, Rt. Hon. Dr. T. J. | White, J. Dundas (Glasgow, Tradeston) |
| Duncan, J. Hastings (Yorks, Otley) | Macpherson, James Ian | White, Sir Luke (Yorks, E. R.) |
| Edwards, Sir Francis (Radnor) | MacVeagh, Jeremiah | White, Patrick (Meath, North) |
| Edwards, John Hugh (Glamorgan, Mid) | McKenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald | Whittaker, Rt. Hon. Sir Thomas P. |
| Falconer, James | Molloy, Michael | Whyte, Alexander F. (Perth) |
| Fenwick, Rt. Hon. Charles | Mond, Rt. Hon. Sir Alfred | Wilson, John (Durham, Mid) |
| Ffrench, Peter | Montagu, Hon. E. S. | Wing, Thomas Edward |
| Field, William | Morgan, George Hay | Yoe, Alfred William |
| Fiennes, Hon. Eustace Edward | Morton, Alpheus Cleophas | |
| Flavin, Michael Joseph | Munro, Rt. Hon. Robert | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Captain |
| Furnese, Sir Stephen Wilson | Needham, Christopher T. | Guest and Mr. Webb. |
| NOES. | ||
| Adamson, William | Gordon, Hon. John Edward (Brighton) | Richardson, Thomas (Whitehaven) |
| Amery, L. C. M. S. | Grant, James Augustus | Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall) |
| Baird, John Lawrence | Greene, Walter Raymond | Rutherford, Walson (L'pool, W. Derby) |
| Banbury, Sir Frederick George | Gretton, John | Samuel, Samuel (Wandsworth) |
| Baring Major Hon. Guy V. (Winchester) | Hall, Frederick (Dulwich) | Sanders, Robert Arthur |
| Barnston, Harry | Henderson, Arthur (Durham) | Sandys, G. J. |
| Bathurst, Charles (Wilts, Wilton) | Henderson, Major H. (Berks, Abingdon) | Stanley, Hon. G. F. (Preston) |
| Benn, Ion Hamilton (Greenwich) | Hoare, Samuel John Gurney | Strauss, Arthur (Paddington, North) |
| Boyton, James | Hodge, John | Talbot, Lord Edmund |
| Burn, Colonel C. R. | Hogge, James Myles | Thomas, J. H. |
| Carlile, Sir Edward Hildred | Hope, Major J. A. (Midlothian) | Thorne, William (West Ham) |
| Cassel, Felix | Hudson, Walter | Thynne, Lord Alexander |
| Chaloner, Colonel R. G. W. | Macdonald, J. Ramsay (Leicester) | Wardle, George J. |
| Cooper, Sir Richard Ashmole | Martin, Joseph | Wedgwood, Josiah C. |
| Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. | Mount, William Arthur | White, Major G. D. (Lancs., Southport) |
| Craik, Sir Henry | Parker, James (Halifax) | Williams, John (Glamorgan) |
| Dairymple, Viscount | Peto, Basil Edward | Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton) |
| Gill, A. H. | Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central) | |
| Gilmour, Captain John | Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr. |
| Goldsmith, Frank | Rees, Sir J. D. | Booth and Sir Godfrey Baring. |
§ Question put accordingly, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."
148§ The Committee divided: Ayes, 160; Noes, 31.
149| Division No. 75.] | AYES. | [10.25 p.m. |
| Abraham, William (Dublin, Harbour) | Glanville, Harold James | O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.) |
| Acland, Francis Dyke | Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford | O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool) |
| Adamson, William | Goldsmith, Frank | O'Dowd, John |
| Alden, Percy | Gretton, John | O'Kelly, Edward P. (Wicklow, W.) |
| Allen, Rt. Hon. Charles P. (Stroud) | Guest, Major Hon. C. H. C. (Pembroke) | O'Malley, William |
| Baird, John Lawrence | Guest, Hon. Frederick E. (Dorset, E.) | O'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, S.) |
| Baker, Joseph Allen (Finsbury, E.) | Gwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway) | O'Shaughnessy, P. J. |
| Balfour, Sir Robert (Lanark) | Harcourt, Rt. Hon. L. (Rossendale) | Parry, Thomas H. |
| Baring, Sir Godfrey (Barnstaple) | Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose) | Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek) |
| Barran, Rowland Hurst (Leeds, N.) | Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, W.) | Peto, Basil Edward |
| Beauchamp, Sir Edward | Havelock-Allan, Sir Henry | Phillips, John (Longford, S.) |
| Benn, Arthur Shirley (Plymouth) | Henderson, Major H. (Berks, Abingdon) | Pointer, Joseph |
| Benn, W. W. (T. Hamlets, St. George) | Henderson, J. M. (Aberdeen, W.) | Pratt, J. W. |
| Black, Arthur W. | Henry, Sir Charles | Pringle, William M. R. |
| Boland, John Pius | Herbert, General Sir Ivor (Mon., S.) | Radford, G. H. |
| Boworman, Charles W. | Hewart, Gordon | Raffan, Peter Wilson |
| Brady, Patrick Joseph | Higham, John Sharp | Redmond, John E. (Waterford) |
| Bryce, J. Annan | Hinds, John | Rees, Sir J. D. |
| Burn, Colonel C. R. | Hodge, John | Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln) |
| Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas | Holmes, Daniel Turner | Robertson, John M. (Tyneside) |
| Buxton, Noel (Norfolk, North) | Hope, Major J. A. (Midlothian) | Robinson, Sidney |
| Byles, Sir William Pollard | Howard, Hon. Geoffrey | Roch, Walter F. (Pembroke) |
| Carlile, Sir Edward Hildred | Hudson, Waiter | Roe, Sir Thomas |
| Cawley, Harold T. (Lancs., Heywood) | Hughes, Spencer Leigh | Rowlands, James |
| Chapple, Dr. William Allen | Jardine, Sir J. (Roxburgh) | Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland) |
| Clancy, John Joseph | Jones, Edgar (Merthyr Tydvil) | Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees) |
| Clough, William | Jones, J. Towyn (Carmarthen, East) | Sanders, Robert Arthur |
| Collins, Sir Stephen (Lambeth) | Jones, William (Carnarvonshire) | Scott, A. MacCallum (Glas., Bridgeton) |
| Condon, Thomas Joseph | Jones, William S. Glyn- (Stepney) | Seely, Rt. Hon. Colonel J. E. B. |
| Craik, Sir Henry | Kellaway, Frederick George | Shortt, Edward |
| Crooks, William | Kelly, Edward | Smith, Albert (Lancs., Clitheroe) |
| Crumley, Patrick | King, Joseph | Stanley, Hon. G. F. (Preston) |
| Cullinan, John | Lambert, Rt. Hon. G. (Devon, S. Molton) | Sutton, John E. |
| Dairymple, Viscount | Lambert, Richard, (Wilts, Cricklade) | Talbot, Lord Edmund |
| Davies, Timothy (Lincs., Louth) | Lardner, James C. R. | Thomas, J. H. |
| Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.) | Levy, Sir Maurice | Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton) |
| Dawes, James Arthur | Lewis, Rt. Hon. John Herbert | Thynne, Lord Alexander |
| Delany, William | Lynch, A. A. | Verney, Sir Harry |
| Denman, Hon. Richard Douglas | Macdonald, J. Ramsay (Leicester) | Wardle, George J. |
| Donelan, Captain A. | Maclean, Donald | Webb, H. |
| Doris, William | Macnamara, Rt. Hon. Dr. T. J. | White, Major G. D. (Lancs., Southport) |
| Duncan, J. Hastings (Yorks, Otley) | Macpherson, James Ian | White, J. Dundas (Glasgow, Tradeston) |
| Edwards, Sir Francis (Radnor) | MacVeagh, Jeremiah | White, Sir Luke (Yorks, E. R.) |
| Edwards, John Hugh (Glamorgan, Mid) | McKenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald | White, Patrick (Meath, North) |
| Esslemont, George Birnie | Molloy, Michael | Whittaker, Rt. Hon. Sir Thomas P. |
| Falconer, James | Mond, Rt. Hon. Sir Alfred | Whyte, Alexander F. |
| Fenwick, Rt. Hon. Charles | Montagu, Hon. E. S. | Williams, John (Glamorgan) |
| Ffrench, Peter | Morgan, George Hay | Wilson, John (Durham, Mid) |
| Field, William | Mount, William Archer | Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton) |
| Fiennes, Hon. Eustace Edward | Munro, Rt. Hon. Robert | Wing, Thomas Edward |
| Flavin, Michael Joseph | Needham, Christopher T. | Yeo, Alfred W. |
| Furness, Sir Stephen Wilson | Nicholson, Sir Charles N. (Doncaster) | |
| Gill, A. H. | Nolan, Joseph | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr. |
| Gilmour, Captain John | O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) | Illingworth and Mr. Gulland. |
| Gladstone, W. G. C. | ||
| NOES. | ||
| Amery, L. C. M. S. | Gordon, Hon. John Edward (Brighton) | Richardson, Thomas (Whitehaven) |
| Baring, Major Hon. Guy V. (Winchester) | Grant, J. A. | Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall) |
| Barnes, George N. | Greene, W. R. | Samuel, Samuel (Wandsworth) |
| Barnston, Harry | Hall, Frederick (Dulwich) | Sandys, G. J. |
| Bathurst, Charles (Wilts, Wilton) | Henderson, Arthur (Durham) | Strauss, Arthur (Paddington, North) |
| Benn, Ion Hamilton (Greenwich) | Hoare, Samuel John Gurney | Thorne, William (West Ham) |
| Booth, Frederick Handel | Hogge, James Myles | Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent) |
| Boyton, James | Martin, Joseph | Wedgwood, Josiah C. |
| Cassel, Felix | Outhwaite, R. L. | |
| Chaloner, Colonel R. G. W. | Parker, James (Halifax) | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Sir |
| Cooper, Sir Richard Ashmole | Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel | F. Banbury and Mr. W. Rutherford. |
| Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. |