§ Postponed proceeding on Amendment to Question, "That a sum not exceeding £121,181 be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1914, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Board of Agriculture for Scotland." [Note—£110,000 has been voted on account.]
§ Which Amendment was to reduce the Vote by £100.—[Mr. James Hogge.]
§ Question again proposed. Debate resumed.
§ Mr. MILLARA good many hon. Members who have taken part in the Debate have directed their attention entirely to the question of agriculture in the Highlands. I wish to say a word or two in regard to the applications for small holdings which have come from the Lowland counties. Some hon. Members have suggested that the Small Landholders Act was passed almost entirely in the interests of the Highland counties, and that it has had a very limited operation so far within the Lowland counties. I should like to remind the Committee that in Lanarkshire there had been no fewer than 108 applications received by the end of last year, and that that county comes seventh in order among the other counties in regard to the number of applications. The number of applications received from Lanarkshire exceeds the number received from a number of the northern counties, from which one might have expected a greater demand would have been intimated. The chief purpose I have in view at the present moment is to point out that there is an equal land 1327 hunger felt in the Lowlands of Scotland, and not only so, but that the applicants who have come forward have shown themselves possessed of the necessary qualifications both in regard to the experience required and the capital required for entering upon small holdings. I should like to draw the attention of the Committee to the fact that in the Report of the Board of Agriculture special reference is made to the character of the holdings which are chiefly in demand in the South of Scotland. At page 12 it is said:—
In the South of Scotland two types of holdings are wanted, the one sufficient to keep a pair of horses in work and the other round about ten acres. The former will occupy the whole time of the holder and his family, while the latter are wanted (1) by those who have some regular employment and only require a 'Mime' with sufficient land to keep one or two cows, and some pigs and poultry, and (2) by others who wish to utilise the ground for market gardening.The latter class of holding is one which ought to be encouraged by the Board of Agriculture. I refer especially to the case of those who, having some regular employment of their own, are very anxious to take up at the same time, in a comparatively small way, agricultural occupation, the keeping of cows, pigs, poultry, and to have sufficient land round about them to be able to meet their own family needs and also to those who desire to go in, in a small way perhaps, for market gardening. It so happens that that type of holder is found in considerable numbers in the Lowlands of Scotland, and I am very glad that the Beard of Agriculture should have recognised the fact that beyond those who intend to devote their whole time to the cultivation of small holdings, there is a large class of those who are engaged in other occupations to whom land ought to be made available. For instance, there are many mining districts in which you find a certain class of miner, some of whom have had a connection with the land in the way of cultivation at an earlier period and are quite fit and very anxious to cultivate a certain area or land round about their dwelling houses. I should like that in such cases assistance might be made available for all the necessary equipment of the holdings, and in certain cases for buildings. But I recognise that there are many cases in which it would not be possible for the Board to provide the buildings, but in which they could intervene with very great advantage in order to secure the land. I believe that in certain districts the land could be got without much difficulty by agree- 1328 ment with the landowners. In other districts I believe that through the intervention of the Board an order might be made which would secure at a very reasonable rate the land which was required in order to start in small mining villages in some of the districts of Lanarkshire which are remote from the large centres and where there is a large demand for a small holding, an object lesson in the way of cultivation of land, and in such communities there might be a certain amount of co-operation and common work undertaken by those interested in the scheme. I trust that the right hon. Gentleman in charge of this Vote will indicate to us who represent Lowland constituencies in Scotland that it is intended that the Act shall be made a success in the Lowlands as in the Highlands of Scotland and that the land hunger which has already been manifested in the Lowlands is likely to be satisfied at an early moment. Reference has been made to the number of applications from the Highland counties, but I would remind the Committee that from the Lowland counties of Scotland there have been no fewer than 419 applications for new holdings alone, not counting the enlargement of holdings, and that to overtake that number of applications would in itself be a considerable task, requiring some time of the Board, but a task deserving of immediate attention. Out of the 108 applications received in Lanarkshire the number which has been dealt with is practically nil. I understand from the Report that there is a prospect of one small holder being settled with a small holding of six acres during the course of the coming year. That is one of the schemes authorised by the Secretary for Scotland before the end of the coming year although others are being considered.
§ Mr. MILLARThat is a very small proporton, and it is well worthy of the consideration of hon. Members who, like the hon. Member oposite, who has just moved a count, represent Lowland counties in Scotland. I sincerely hope that the hon. Member will indicate that his interest in this matter is greater than that which he has shown by moving a count.
Captain CAMPBELLAs far as my own Constituency is concerned only two applications have been made for small holdings, and both of those came from urban areas in Glasgow, so that I see no particular need to be enthusiastic in favour of this proposal.
§ Mr. MILLARThe hon. Member has indicated the enthusiasm which hon. Members opposite have for small holdings, and I may recall the character of the opposition which we had to the passing of the Act at an earlier period, and which is revived in this Debate on Scottish Estimates.
§ 9.0 P.M.
§ Mr. MILLARI find from the Report that no fewer than forty-two applications came from the county of Ayr, part of which the hon. Member represents. I would like also in a word to refer to the question of afforestation, which has been dealt with by a number of hon. Members on both sides. I agree that it is one of the most urgent aspects of the problem, and I think that the right hon. Gentleman ought to be in a position to explain to the House why so much delay has occurred in dealing with this matter. I regard this matter as of very urgent importance, because we look to the Development Fund for assistance in this matter, and the Development Commissioners have clearly expressed the view that this is a matter which cannot be dealt with until an experimental area has been secured in Scotland. I may refer to the Report of the Board, at page 32, where it is said that the Development Commissioners, in their second Annual Report published in June last, indicate that in their view one of the main requirements of forestry in Scotland is a suitable demonstration area, and, after referring to the appointment of a Departmental Committee, they note that no official proposal had been received by the end of the year. I understand that we are in this position: We are hoping to get further assistance from the Development Commission to secure further funds to deal with this matter which is in charge of the Board. Surely we ought at the very earliest moment to seek to fulfill the requirements which the Development Board lay down if we want to carry them with us. I would like to hear from the right hon. Gentleman what his explanation is of the long delay which 1330 has taken place since the appointment of the Advisory Committee in regard to the selection of an area. We have heard the hon. Member for Glasgow and Aberdeen Universities say that in his view the Dee-side district has been considered by this Advisory Committee as the most important and suitable district in Scotland. I understood that the matter had not yet been decided. Although I can well understand why the hon. Member should have sought to show how important a teaching centre Aberdeen was, I should have thought it extremely desirable that one of the primary conditions referred to by the Advisory Committee set up by the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary for Scotland, should have been kept in view, namely, that the area selected should be within easy access by rail from the existing teaching centres, not from one, but from all. Great interest is taken in this subject both in Glasgow and in Edinburgh, where there are good forestry schools and where every effort has been made to deal with the situation. I sincerely hope the right hon. Gentleman, when it comes to the actual selection of an area, will keep in view that while it is necessary, no doubt, to have suitable conditions within the area selected, it is equally necessary that the area should be within easy access by rail from all existing centres, and the selection should be made conditional on that. I only want to express to the right hon. Gentleman the satisfaction which I feel at what he has undertaken to-day to do in order to speed up the machinery of the Board of Agriculture. I regard the need for further funds as being absolutely vital to the success of the work which lies before us. I think we may look to the Development Commissioners to assist us largely in that, direction, but we must make it clear to Scotland, and I hope the result of this Debate will be to make it clear to Scotland that there is to be no slackening at all in regard to putting into operation the provisions of the Smallholders Act, that an attempt will be made to meet all the applications at the earliest possible moment, and that the urgency of the problem is now being fully realised. We have had evidence since the Board started its operations of land hunger even beyond what I believe many of us imagined to exist in Scotland. I hope that, instead of discouraging these applications, in future we shall be able to deal with them in such a way as to encourage larger numbers of applicants, and to secure the settlement on the soil of Scotland of those who, at the 1331 present moment, are tempted to find their homes elsewhere. I have attended one or two gatherings of applicants for small holdings in my own Constituency who were very anxious indeed to secure the advantages of the Act. Many of them are undoubtedly feeling very much dissatisfied and irritated through the delay which has occurred, but I hope we will be able to inform all applicants that the Board of Agriculture will speedily be in a position to deal with their claims, and that an attempt will be made to satisfy the demand not only of those who are prepared to settle on the soil and to devote their whole time to its cultivation, but also of those who seek for some land in order that they may be able to carry on occupations subsidiary to their main employment in which they are engaged. In this way I believe we would encourage a very much larger class of small holders throughout the country.
§ Mr. PIRIEI only wish to state one or two reasons why, if my hon. Friend who moved the reduction goes to a Division, I shall support him. My main reason may be summed up almost in a sentence, and it is that since the Act came into operation about a year ago the number of small holdings that have been taken is not worth speaking of in proportion to the number of applications which have been made. That is the main reason why I pledge my vote to the reduction. I think it would have been better and more acceptable to Scottish Members if the Secretary for Scotland had been able to announce at once that the Government contemplated taking a serious view of this all-important question to Scotland by appointing the President of the Scottish Board of Agriculture to sit in this House. It is high time that we had more than one Minister apart from the Lord Advocate, and that we should have two Ministers to represent the numerous Scotch Boards. As long as the present system exists I shall consider myself not only entitled, but that I am not doing my duty unless I enter my protest against it. It has been pointed out with great force that nothing has been done, practically speaking, by the Department. There has been delay as regards the creation of small holdings, and still greater delay in coming to a decision on the question of forestry. I was very glad indeed to hear what was said by the hon. Member who spoke from the Front Bench oppo- 1332 site, and who laid down the eminently sound thesis as regards forestry, that it ought not to be a question of which university gives the best education. However important that may be, the great thing is to secure an area suitable in every way, including the presence of a sufficient amount of timber for a good demonstration area.
What is unquestionably the best area, in regard to these different points, is in the western district of Aberdeenshire. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."] I know it will be thought that I am simply speaking in favour of my own Constituency, for it does so happen that the two are combined together to a most wonderful extent. It would be a comparatively short journey to that area from any of the universities, and any difficulty in regard to the length of the journey would be therefore overcome. It is not a question of a visit of a few days, for perhaps the students would spend a month or so in the area itself, and there certainly should be sufficient rough accommodation placed there to allow the students to take full advantage of the exceptional facilities afforded by that western portion of Aberdeenshire for the study of forestry. In my opinion the two questions of small holdings and forestry stand together in a most remarkable way. There is great responsibility on the Scottish Office at the present moment in view of the enormous and appalling figures—I do not share the view of the hon. Member for Aberdeen University, who welcomed emigration—that we have seen in regard to the numbers who are leaving Scotland. It is lamentable to see all her best sons leaving for the Colonies. I have read statistics after statistics, one set more appalling than another, of emigration from Scotland, with the result, as lamentable as in the case of Ireland, that Scotland is one of the largest centres in the British Islands from which there is emigration. Besides the large areas for forestry in Scotland, you could create numberless small holdings, and I do think that the Government, are largely to blame in not hurrying up the Advisory Committee which I understand has been appointed, in order that the land may be settled more largely and without further delay. If the right hon. Gentleman had displayed the same energy in dealing with this question as he did in dealing with the case of distress on St. Kilda the other day, on which I congratulate him, then I think some of us might have a different opinion 1333 of his administrative ability. The great question is that of money, and with the knowledge the right hon. Gentleman has of the inner working of the Treasury, and with the resolution which he is said to have shown on perhaps a less auspicious occasion, when he is said to have tendered his resignation on the question of temperance, I think there is no excuse for him in not being able to secure enough money.
As I have said before, I should like to see the day come when any Scottish Member, who calls himself a Liberal, would refuse to be a Secretary for Scotland under the present conditions which exist as regards the holding of that office. He is at the beck and call of the other Ministers, and he is the Cinderella of the Cabinet. I should like, as I say, to see the day when any self-respecting Liberal Scottish Member would refuse to be Secretary under the somewhat degrading conditions under which that office is held. This Debate is rather typical of the usual Debate which takes place when Scottish Questions are under discussion. I moved a count an hour after the Debate had begun in the middle of the afternoon, and there have been three since, in order to show the Scottish people the interest English and Irish Members take in this question. Of course, at present, it is the dinner hour. When I moved a count there were three Members opposite from England and one Welsh and one Irish Member. The more the attention of the people of Scotland can be called to the way in which Scottish Debates are treated in this House, the better. Before eleven o'clock there will be a fourth attempt at a count. As usual, there could not have been a Scottish Debate without the Government putting down a Private Bill. Who was the Member who prolonged that Debate, in order to take up some of the little time we have? He was a Member for Hexham Division (Mr. R. D. Holt) and the only English Liberal Member who distinguished himself by voting against the Second Reading of the Scottish. Home Rule Bill. The more the Scottish people study these matters, the more convinced will they be that their true interest lies in the removal of their own affairs from here to their own country, and that the sooner it takes place the better. If the hon. Member goes to a Division against the system which exists, and in condemnation of the dilatoriness which exists with regard to the question of small holdings, shall support him.
§ Mr. FREDERICK WHYTEThe hon. Member who has just spoken likened Scotland with regard to legislative and administrative treatment to a Cinderella. We all know he has aspired to play the part of Fairy Prince, and to get her a Parliament of her own. He complains this House is not filled with English and Irish Members to listen to Scottish Members, whereas, I imagine, the real burden of his complaint to be that while this House is empty, the Division Lobby will be filled when he goes into the Lobby against the Government. There has been a great deal of criticism directed against the Board of Agriculture to-day, and with the spirit of that criticism I agree, because it represents the strong desire which is very evident in the agricultural district in Scotland that the working of the Small Landholders (Scotland) Act, 1911, should be more speedy than it has been in the past. But I think both the Secretary for Scotland and the hon. and gallant Gentleman who spoke from the Opposition Front Bench (Captain Gilmour) were certainly right when they warned the House not to press a new Department like this to act with precipitation during the early period of its office. After all, this Board only came into operation in April, 1912, and it had a very serious task in front of it. It was a Board consisting of persons who, at least in their official capacity, had never worked together before, and who were working more or less on unknown ground, and who, consequently, had to explore the field of their operations before they could set to work at all. I think, considering the smallness of their staff and the task they had in hand, they have accomplished a great deal. But I am sure my hon. Friends below the Gangway will have taken one part of the speech of the Secretary for Scotland as a justification of the demand which they have bean making. The part I refer to is that in which he told the House he had decided to ask for a great enlargement of the staff which deals particularly with small holdings in Scotland. That is, as I say, a notable justification of the complaints which have been made during this Session by my hon. Friend from Scotland, and particularly by those who represent rural districts, for a more rapid application of the Smallholders Act all over Scotland.
I would, however, if I may, associate myself with the words which fell from the Secretary for Scotland, and appeal to my hon. Friends not to be too precipitate in 1335 their demands for the immediate application of the Act all over, because there is nothing more certain than this, that, while the success of the small holder really depends primarily upon his own capacity and ability and knowledge of agriculture, it depends in a hardly less degree upon the character of the land and the position of the land which he occupies. I am perfectly certain we should run serious danger of having large numbers of holders placed on unsatisfactory land if the Board were pressed too hard to carry on their work more rapidly than in the past. There is then the question of forestry. I do not suppose it is within the power of the Secretary for Scotland to apply the spur to the Advisory Committee he set up a year ago to examine the question of an administration area in Scotland, but perhaps the members of that Committee will read what has been said this afternoon and evening, and will realise that there is a great desire among all classes of people in Scotland to see a move forward made in the direction of afforestation in Scotland. The first move, of course, is to make the necessary preliminary survey of the area of Scotland, and to gather together the necessary staff. That part is already being done in some degree by the Board of Agriculture. We all hope that this Committee will bring its labours to a conclusion as speedily as possible. My hon. Friend from Aberdeen suggested that Aberdeenshire is the most suitable place for a demonstration area for Scottish forestry. I would suggest that there is no more central county than the one containing the burgh which I have the honour to represent. It lies almost equidistant from all four Scottish universities. As a claim has been made on behalf of other places, I feel it incumbent on me as representing the Borough of Perth to put in a claim on her behalf.
§ Sir JOHN M'CALLUMI am sure that most Scottish Members must be delighted to learn that Scotland now in reference to agriculture is in such a healthy condition. The statement made by the Secretary for Scotland was very satisfactory. He indicated how the Board had been working, and that he had gone to the Treasury——
Captain CAMPBELLI beg to call attention to the fact that there are not forty Members present. We really must put a stop to these electioneering speeches.
The DEPUTY-CHAIRMANThe second remark made by the hon. Member is quite an improper one to make in calling my attention to the fact that there are not forty Members present. In regard to the fact to which he has called my attention, a Division was called about a quarter to nine. I was then in the House, and I satisfied myself that there were a sufficient number of Members present. That being so, after so short an interval I feel justified in disregarding the hon. Gentleman's intimation.
Captain CAMPBELLDid you not inform me when last I rose that at a quarter past nine you would allow a count?
The DEPUTY-CHAIRMANI informed the hon. Member that a count could not be called until a quarter past nine. I gave no indication as to the view I should take if my attention was then called to the fact that forty Members were not present.
§ Sir JOHN M'CALLUMI can assure the hon. Member that. I shall not detain the Committee more than two or three minutes. The Government are going to work this business in a scientific way. In connection with agriculture it is impossible in our day to make any advance whatever by old-fashioned methods. The system of scientific agriculture has to be introduced. Under the Act the system of waste will be put aside, and we shall adopt such methods as will enable us to make the best of our opportunities—in a word, to make two i blades of grass grow where only one is growing now. It is impossible to get the desired results in a few months. It will be probably five years before we see the real fruit of what we are now attempting. I thank the hon. Member for Bute for the tone and spirit in which he dealt with this subject. He and his family are perhaps the greatest authorities upon agriculture in Scotland, and praise from his lips is high praise indeed. I wish some of our Ishmaelite friends, instead of continually carping, would take a wide view of great problems, the proper solution of which will take some years. We have men now on the Government Bench who are in earnest, and we have the best authorities in connection with agriculture, from both the practical and the educational points of view, able in every way to carry on this great work. I rejoice to hear what has been said this afternoon. I am extremely sorry that the 1337 hon. Member for North Aberdeen (Captain Pirie) is not in his place. He comes for- ward continually finding fault, no matter who may be the Secretary for Scotland. It would require an angel from Heaven to preside over the destinies of Scotland to please the hon. Member. Some Members will never be satisfied until they them selves occupy that position. But the interests of Scotland must be regarded from a higher point of view than that. I would ask hon. Members whether they imagine for a moment that the interests of Scotland are being served by this system of continual fault-finding? We are simply exposing ourselves to the sarcasm of those who differ from us on the other side. We are often held forth as men who are sensible and peculiarly wise in our methods of life; but in Parliament of late years we have had an exhibition of Scottish character which is most revolting to some of us. We believe that the greatest things are done in silence, and that if we go on quietly working, keeping these questions to the front as we have been doing for years, we shall be most successful. It took five years to secure this Small Landholders Act; it will take five or ten years more to see the fruits of its working.
§ Mr. EYRES-MONSELLI rise to protest against the statement that no Members other than Scottish Members take any interest whatsoever in this Debate. I have not a single drop of Scottish blood in me, although in the present state of the House I am not disposed to boast over much of that fact. I wish to question a statement made by the hon. Member for North-East Lanarkshire (Mr. Duncan Millar). I understood him to advocate the establishment of market gardens in the Highlands.
§ Mr. DUNCAN MILLARI was referring solely to the condition of the Lowlands throughout the whole of my speech. I thought I made that point clear.
§ Mr. EYRES-MONSELLI thought the hon. Member spoke rather lightly about market gardens, and that he did not attach sufficient importance to the difficulties under which market gardeners in this country labour. He suggested that market gardening might be carried out in spare time. I do not think it is a good plan to hold out hopes of that sort to people in Scotland. Does the hon. Member realise what a highly specialised business market gardening now is? Three conditions are essential. In the Evesham 1338 district, which I have the honour to represent, we have those conditions, namely, a good climate, good markets, and good transit—because we have two competing railway lines—and yet it is very difficult indeed to make market gardening pay. We have to labour against a very great number of difficulties. Foreign competition is a real difficulty, because sometimes even two shiploads of fruit coming from abroad will bring down the price of gooseberries, say, to half that our market gardeners are getting, and perhaps for the rest of the season the price never recovers itself. This year we are having a very bad fruit year in consequence of insect pests, due, no doubt, to the lack of frost last winter. I am afraid we are going to have a very bad fruit and vegetable season indeed. In spite of all these difficulties, hon. Members opposite always seem to vote for putting further difficulties in our way. It is no use advocating these things for the Highlands, or for the Lowlands, or anywhere else, if you go on putting difficulties in our way, difficulties such as Undeveloped Land Duty. I know the feeling of the market gardeners in my Constituency, and all I ask hon. Members opposite to do before holding out these hopes——
The DEPUTY-CHAIRMANI do not quite see the relevance of the hon. Member's observations to the Vote before the Committee, which is for the Board of Agriculture in Scotland.
§ Mr. EYRES-MONSELLI beg your pardon. I was only wishful to say that before hon. Members opposite hold out the hope they do to market gardeners in any part of Scotland that. they should take a general survey of agriculture: then they will do all they can for market gardeners.
§ Mr. C. E. PRICEI only wish to refer to a matter which has already been referred to by one of the representatives for Edinburgh. It has relation to the proposed school of forestry. I saw an announcement in the Press some days ago of the anticipated purchase of an estate in a portion of Aberdeenshire. I received several communications from Edinburgh, particularly from some educational authorities, as to the concern with which they looked forward to the possible prospects of having this estate in Aberdeenshire. I should be the last one to say that in the purchase of an estate regard only should be had to the claims of Edinburgh, because I think it is essential that such an estate should 1339 be in such a position that the different universities can take full advantage of it. But so far as Edinburgh is concerned, she has special claims to consideration. She was the first university in Scotland to establish a forestry lectureship, thus establishing a standard, and, further, her teaching is recognised as qualifying for examination for the Indian Civil Service. Hitherto this has been confined to Oxford and Cambridge. Therefore, now that Edinburgh has been recognised as a teaching school to qualify for the Indian Civil Service, I think it would be disastrous if this school of forestry were placed in such a position that Edinburgh could not take full advantage of it. Some of us are greatly concerned at the enormous emigration from Scotland. Sonic of us are greatly concerned at the loss of time since the Small Landholders Act was created —concerned that the matter has gone forward at so slow a rate. I had the advantage of going over the Western Highlands in 1888, two years after the passing of the Crofters Act. I covered again the same ground in 1908, twenty years after the Act carne into operation. The change in the Highlands as a result of that Act and as a result of security of tenure and fair rents was enormous. Those of us who have seen the benefit from that Act look forward, in view of the experience gained, to this last Land Bill as likely to have even a greater effect over the whole of Scotland than the Act of 1886. The Opposition, at all events, should welcome this Act above all others, because when the 1886 Act was passed they said that that Act was absolutely unsuited to the Highlands, though it was suited to the Lowlands. We now have the extension to the Highlands, and, therefore, they should welcome it. I have gone through the Debates of that time very carefully and I find that the Opposition said that the Crofters Act, if it had been applied to the Lowlands, would have been very beneficial, but that it was absolutely unsuited to the Highlands. The creation of small holdings is not the only thing which will check the depopulation of Scotland. There is the housing problem, which is a very important matter. I was the other day talking to a farmer in Forfarshire who told me he had lost two of his best men simply from the fact that he could not get houses for them. They emigrated. Some of us therefore look forward not only to this Act being very beneficial in getting the people on the 1340 land, but look forward to an extension dealing with the land problem associated with the taxation of land values.
Mr. MacCALLUM SCOTTI would like to say a word in reference to the remarks which fell from the hon. Member on the Front Bench opposite a few moments ago. I think he showed lamentable ignorance of the fame and reputation of the Scottish people as market gardeners. He obviously knows very little about Scotland. If he had known more I think he would know that there is no country in the world where the art of market gardening has been more highly developed. If he goes around among the great estates in England, and if he looks into the gardens there, I venture to say that he will in a very large number of cases find that the gardener comes from Scotland.
§ Mr. EYRES-MONSELLThat is not quite the same thing. If the hon. Member will come to my Constituency I should be glad to show him what I mean.
Mr. MacCALLUM SCOTTThat is quite true, but there are hundreds and hundreds of men who go in for training and serve their apprenticeship as gardeners who have careers afterwards as gardeners on estates. In many cases they spring from market-garden stocks. I had intended to say something with reference to two aspects of the Report which is now before us. First, there is the question of small holdings, and, secondly, the question of afforestation. The Scottish Board of Agriculture, whose first annual Report we are now discussing, is the first fruits of the Small Landholders Act. The Small Landholders Act, is the first fruit of the new national movement in Scotland. That Act, 1 believe, marked an epoch in the political history of Scotland, and besides marking an epoch in the political history, it marked an epoch in the social and industrial history of Scotland—a completely new development in the agricultural system——
The DEPUTY-CHAIRMANThe hon. Gentleman's observations are not quite directed to the Vote that is under discussion.
Mr. MacCALLUM SCOTTI was endeavouring to explain that the Scottish Board of Agriculture, whose annual Report we are now discussing, marks an epoch in the history of Scotland. The principles upon which this Board has been established are not widely appreciated in England. They are not new to Scotland, 1341 but their extension to the whole of Scotland is new.
They have been in practice for generations in six of the northern counties, and the extension of them to the whole of Scotland is not some doctrinaire theory, some vague principle elaborated in an arm-chair, but it is the extension of a principle which has been tried by practice and experience in the North of Scotland, and has been found valuable and effective. I hope that as the principles upon which this Board is based are appreciated in Scotland, and as their work is seen throughout Scotland, they will be accepted as a guide to future land legislation. in England. One of the first things revealed has been the extraordinray rush of applicants for land in Scotland. In England, when the Small Holdings Act was passed, there were 23,000 applicants for small holdings in the first year. In Scotland, there were 5,000 applicants; that is practically double in Scotland in proportion to England. In England there was practically one applicant for every two thousand of the population, and in Scotland one foe every thousand of population.
The DEPUTY-CHAIRMANThe hon. Member seems to be directing his remarks to a comparison between the difficulties of the English and the Scottish Acts. What we are now dealing with is the particular Vote with regard to the Board of Agriculture in Scotland, and I must ask the hon. Member to confine his remarks to that with special reference to items in the Vote.
Mr. MacCALLUM SCOTTIf I am out of order, I will desist altogether from that branch of the subject, but I am dealing with the number of applicants with which this Board deals, and I was endeavouring to show that the number was double in Scotland as compared with England. If that is not germane, I shall sit down, but what I have to say is concerned with that aspect of the problem. The hunger for land in Scotland, as evidenced by the applications mentioned in this Report, is double that of England. We have a remarkable testimony of the extent and urgency of that demand in the Report before us. I will take two small quotations from the Report. The first is:—
The work of tie past six months has disclosed a demand for land settlement far in excess of the present resources of the fund.And a second quotation is:—The number of practical proposals at present before the Board leads them to believe that the limit to the 1342 number of small holdings that can be created will be determined by the resources of the fund.Here we have a remarkable state of affairs. An Act is passed to meet the demand for small holdings. As soon as he Act is passed there is an enormous rush of applicants, and then it is found that the means provided by the Act are altogether inadequate. Of course, one could not judge accurately what the demand would be, but now that its effects are made manifest they cannot be ignored, and we cannot remain content with the provision made for meeting this demand under the Act. The right hon. Gentleman, who is responsible for the administration of this Act is to be congratulated on the speedy efforts he has made to secure an addition to the means for meeting that demand. The first thing necessary is, of course, to increase the existing machinery: That applies in England also. In England also the demand far exceeded the capacity of the machinery created at the time the Act was passed, but in England it took four years before additional small holdings commissioners could be appointed, and I think the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary for Scotland is to be congratulated that in the first year he has succeeded in securing this extension of the machinery which had taken four years to get in England. But the extension of the machinery, while valuable and necessary, is not enough. We are told very plainly in the first sentence quoted that the extension of land settlement is limited by the resources of the fund. We need more money in order to meet the demand called forth, and having been called forth it cannot be ignored. I trust the right hon. Gentleman will press his demand for more money, and I trust that in doing so he will have the unanimous support of all his colleagues in Scotland, and in this House.The other subject in the Report to which I intend to devote a few remarks is that of afforestation. While I profess the utmost satisfaction at the extension of the machinery for dealing with small holdings. I confess some disappointment at the slowness with which we are proceeding in this matter of afforestation. There are some signs in the Report which seem to indicate that the importance of afforestation is not fully appreciated by the Board of Agriculture. I think the idea is expressed almost in so many words that the first claim upon this fund must be for small holdings and not for afforestation.
1343 That is almost as if one were to say the first claim must be for small holdings and not for Commissioners. It would be almost as if it were to refuse money for appointing Small Holdings Commissioners and officials because the money was to be devoted to small holdings. I believe it is true that you cannot have a very large extension of small holdings in Scotland without large progress with afforestation. There is a large part of the area in Scotland in which small holdings are quite economically impossible and in which they cannot be made profitable without some auxiliary industry. That auxiliary industry does exist in many parts of Scotland on the coast, in fishing, but in the interior, where that resource is not available, it is quite impracticable, even where you can get some land, to establish small holdings upon a real economic basis. I wonder if the officials of the Board of Agriculture have considered the extent to which small holdings have been found possible and practical and paying throughout Germany by the establishment of afforestation in that country? I have here a Report already referred to—the Report of the Commission on Coast Erosion—which was specially required to consider the question of afforestation, and to present a Special Report upon it. The quotation I am going to give is not on the authority of that Commission, but on that of Professor Schlich, who is one of the greatest authorities on the question of forestry and afforestation. He says:—
It is almost a universal rule in Germany that there are no permanent forest workmen hut only a protecting staff. The work in the German forests, as a general proposition in the greater part of the country, is done in the winter, and the men employed are the same men who cultivate the small holdings, some of one acre, some five acres, and some of ton acres, which they cultivate in the summer, and in the winter they work in the forests. They frequently earn 4s. and 5s. a day. In a great part of Germany and France the same men work in the fields in the sunnier, and von have skilled men to do the work in the winter in the forests.I should like to make one other quotation from the Departmental Committee appointed by the Scottish Office in 1911. In their Report they say:—Forests of the same size give ten times as much employment as sheep forming, and would enable hundreds of small holders to thrive in glens, where a score could otherwise scarcely scrape a living.The Scottish Board of Agriculture must beware of establishing by a great expenditure of money a large number of small holdings and then finding that the little, capital of these people has been thrown away, because they may not be able to earn a decent living on the land. If after 1344 much money has been spent these men find that they are not able to maintain themselves properly, they would turn round and blame those who placed them on the holdings.
§ Sir H. CRAIKAnd quite justly.
Mr. MacCALLUM SCOTTIf there is to be a large and successful extension of small holdings, it can only be accomplished by a large development in afforestation. It is hardly realised what afforestation means for Scotland. There is one quarter of the surface of Scotland at present lying waste or being used for poor grazing or purposes of sport which could be better used for afforestation than at present, and which cannot be used for small holdings because it is not arable land. Just think what the reclamation of one quarter of the surface of Scotland would mean. It would mean more for Scotland than if the gold mines of the Rand were discovered there, because they would be worked out some day, but if we had this quarter of the land of Scotland afforested, it would add greatly to the material prosperity of Scotland. The land to which I am referring is not suitable for the best kind of agriculture, but it is not waste and desert and stony land.
§ Sir G. YOUNGERBut it is land subject to terrible ravages and gales, which make it hopeless for cultivation.
Mr. MacCALLUM SCOTTNo, they are large areas which have borne forests in the past and which are at present desert and waste. I am disappointed with the manner in which the Board of Agriculture has dealt with this question of afforestation. Many hon. Members have spoken about it in the House on all sides, and I call the right hon. Gentleman's attention to the widespread desire for some progress in this matter of afforestation. In 1911 we thought something would be done because a Departmental Committee was appointed to consider what practical advance could be made, and they were not to consider mere theoretical questions. This Committee was appointed to report as to the selection of a suitable location for a demonstration area and as to any further steps, following upon the acquisition of the site of the raid area, desirable to promote sylviculture in Scotland. That Committee reported in 1911, and it made a variety of definite recommendations. They recommended that a demonstration area from 4,000 to 10,000 1345 acres, with every staff and equipment, should be acquired; certain educational measures for producing the staff; a fully developed forestry school in connection with one of the universities for training forest officers; a school for working foresters in the demonstration area; a flying survey of the whole of Scotland, and the appointment of advisory forestry officers to advise how to handle best the forests on the estates. They also recommended that a limited number of State trial forests should be initiated.
It will no doubt be said that these are big recommendations for which much money will be needed, and that we have not got the cash to carry them out. That is true, but what about the Development Commissioners? One of the functions of the Development Commissioners is to promote forestry and forestry is a Scottish question more than it is an English or an Irish question. The amount of land which is available for this purpose in Scotland is double that which is available in the whole of England and Ireland. Why has nothing been done to secure a Grant from the Development Commissioners for this purpose I know that an Advisory Committee has been appointed. It was appointed in July last year and this Committee has not yet advised. The matter has been delayed from month to month, and we find that in England they are making more rapid progress in this matter in spite of this being a more urgent question in Scotland. In England I believe you have had some Grants for afforestation. I am sure that it is through no lack of appreciation of the importance of the subject that the Scottish Board has not moved. No doubt the Scottish Board has had many matters to occupy its attention during the first year, and I can only conclude that in the press and crush of many other matters this one has been overlooked. I press the right hon. Gentleman to endeavour to stir up this Advisory Committee and if he finds it can do nothing, dismiss it and appoint another. We, who are interested in the development of small holdings, believe that afforestation is one of the means to that end.
Mr. McKINNON WOODThe hon. Baronet the Member for the Ayr Burghs (Sir G. Younger), raised several questions of interest. One of them was the question of the register of small holdings, and he asked what steps had been taken to check them. [An HON. MEMBER: "We 1346 cannot hear you."] I am bound to confess that it is a matter which we ought to take into consideration to see by what means we can best ensure the absolute accuracy of that register, or at any rate its practical accuracy for statistical purposes, and that matter will have consideration. The hon. Baronet also referred to the question of Fiars Courts. If the hon. Baronet and I can agree to a little Bill, if time permits, if there is no objection on Second Reading, and it is entirely agreed, I think we might bring in that Bill, if not this Session, at any rate next Session. The hon. Baronet asked me two questions, one about Vatersay and the other about Seafield. My information is that matters are proceeding satisfactorily at Vatersay, that the arrears are a small amount, and that the tenants are satisfied with their position. With regard to Seafield, there is only one tenant with whom we have had any trouble, and it is trouble of a kind that might arise on any estate and does not call for any special comment. I do not think that the hon. Member for East Edinburgh (Mr. Hogge) quite appreciates the object of the new seed-testing station. Of course, the idea is to enable farmers to obtain seed of undoubted purity. My hon. Friend also gave an interesting and picturesque account of what I am supposed to do. I should not have referred to it except that it was quoted by another hon. Member, the hon. Member for one of the Divisions of Aberdeen, and I am bound to say that I must not be taken as assenting to the story which he told. The hon. Member for Midlothian (Major Hope) spoke of the small holdings at Muiriston. I do not know why, she brought them in; they have nothing to do with the Board of Agriculture; they are under the control of the Corporation of Edinburgh, and they are not managed upon the same principle as those under the Board of Agriculture.
Major HOPEMay I say that at present they are under the Scottish Local Government Board? The Scottish Local Government Board are the superiors or landlords of the tenants at Muiriston, and they have applied for a valuer of the Scottish Board of Agriculture to be sent down.
Mr. McKINNON WOODIt is certainly news to me that the Local Government Board are the superiors, or that they fix the rents. That is not my information, but at any rate it is not the Board of Agriculture, and the rents are not fixed upon 1347 the same principle. The hon. Member for East Renfrewshire (Captain Gilmour) asked me about the policy of the Board as to the amount of capital required before acceptance of applicants. The capital required, of course, varies in different parts of Scotland and according to the size of holding supplied. The amount required in the case of a fisherman who wants a small amount of land to eke out a living is smaller than is required in the case of a man who wants to make it his sole Source of livelihood, say, in the Lowlands. These questions, therefore, do not admit of a precise arithmetical answer. The hon. Member for Argyllshire (Mr. Ainsworth) asked that the enlargement of existing holdings might be considered, although he appreciated that the pressure in the first instance was for new holdings. The Board are considering the enlargement of the existing holdings in his county and in other parts of Scotland, and that matter will be dealt with in the future. He said, quite properly, that the water supply was a matter of great public importance, Of course, we have not money to deal with large public supplies of water, but we have to supply water where new holdings are instituted and where the supply is deficient.
10.0 P.M.
I now come to the hon. Member for Blackfriars and this much discussed question of the Advisory Committee on Forestry. The hon. Member stated quite truly that a Departmental Committee was appointed two or three years ago to consider the question. They laid down certain principles, but they did not decide upon recommending any specific area for a demonstration centre. That they proposed should be the work of a succeeding Advisory Committee. I followed their recommendations, and set up an Advisory Committee which contained some of the gentlemen most enthusiastic in afforestation in Scotland. There was my right hon. Friend the Member for Leith Burghs (Mr. Munro-Ferguson), Sir John Stirling Maxwell, the hon. Member for West Aberdeenshire (Mr. J. M. Henderson). I am asked why they have not made a recommendation as to the area to be selected. I am not able to answer that question, but I have a suspicion of the reason. I think that the Debate to-day might suggest a reason. Member after Member has arisen and recommended different parts of Scotland. I noticed that they were all parts of Scotland with which 1348 they were interested. There was the hon. Member for Perth (Mr. Whyte) half jocular and half in satire, and there was in dead seriousness the hon. Member for Aberdeen University (Sir H. Craik). Then we got the Edinburgh Members——
§ Sir H. CRAIKWas it not the recommendation of the Advisory Committee?
§ Sir H. CRAIKYes.
§ Sir H. CRAIKYes, the Departmental Committee.
Mr. McKINNON WOODNo, they did not. No doubt this poor Advisory Committee is much distracted by these diverse counsels and local interests, but I must really wait until they have settled the matter. I do not know whether I could adopt the advice one hon. Member has given me about appointing another Advisory Committee, but I have the gravest doubts that we should be in the same position, with the same difficulties. The same pullings from various local interests would take place again, and the poor distracted Committee might be as long arriving at a decision as this one. I hope, however, the Committee will arrive at a decision. I can assure the hon. Member for the Black-friars Division (Mr. Barnes) that forestry has no great relation to unemployment. I do not think that the setting up of forestry areas would do much for unemployment in Scotland. I do not see that if you were to have forestry areas in different centres in Scotland you would do much to find employment. The fact is that it is work which has to be done at certain seasons by a particular kind of trained labour. Afforestation on small holdings is quite a different matter. My hon. Friend the Member for North-East Lanark (Mr. Duncan Millar) asked if we hoped to do something for the Lowlands. We do hope and expect to do a good deal for the Lowlands, and I believe some of the best small holdings will be found in the Lowlands in a very few years time. He spoke about Lanark, and asked why it was we had not been able to plant small holdings in Lanarkshire. Just let me take that case-with the general knowledge I have. We 1349 have had five disappointments in Lanarkshire, five attempts to secure suitable farms. In two cases the farms were let after we began negotiations with the owner, and that stopped the proceedings. In two cases we were excluded by the terms of the Act, and in one case there was a very long lease, and taking the farm would have involved costly compensation beyond what we should have been justified in paying. Lanarkshire is not a place where it is easy at a moment's notice to find land ready to be taken for the purposes of occupation.
There has been one fallacy running through several speeches. Hon. Members have compared the number of small holdings applied for with the number of applicants actually settled, and have declared it would take so many years to get through the work. But that is quite a fallacious calculation. In the first place, all the applicants are not suitable. Some have not the necessary experience, and it is useless putting men on the land without experience of small holdings. Some do not comply with the conditions of the Act, arid we cannot satisfy ourselves that they are able to fulfil their obligations. Consequently a certain number must be taken off the total. Then the number who are settled does not indicate the amount of work actually done. You may have hundreds of cases which have reached various stages; you may have a number of cases which, although they have not been completed, have had an. immense amount of labour expended on them. Therefore you cannot make the calculation on this basis. We had to move with a certain amount of deliberation, otherwise the results might have discredited the whole movement, and we should have lost the confidence of all sensible people. I believe that the judgment of the House, and the
§ judgment of my Scotch colleague, to which I attach more importance, is with us in saying that we were quite right in moving with care. We have not moved with slowness or slackness. The officials of the Board have worked very hard on this problem, and the additional help they are now getting is absolutely necessary if the work is to be done with proper expedition. I hope next year we shall be able to make much more rapid progress, and that a much larger number of men will be settled on the land as small holders than during the past year.
§ Mr. MORTONThe right hon. Gentleman has said nothing as to what has been done in Sutherlandshire.
Mr. McKINNON WOODWe have two schemes in that county, one for farming and one for afforestation. I cannot give details as they are not sufficiently advanced, and it is not in the interests of the success of the schemes that we should go into them prematurely.
§ Mr. MORTONI should like to know where the afforestation scheme is to be tried. But I wish to emphasise the point that there is plenty of land available in Sutherlandshire, and I do not want to wait until the people are driven out of the county by emigration. I do not want the depopulation which we so much deplore to continue, and therefore, I shall feel bound, in the interests of my constituents, to vote for the Amendment.
§ Question put, "That a sum, not exceeding £121,081, be granted for the said Service."
§ The Committee divided: Ayes, 9; Noes, 194.
1351| Division No. 120.] | AYES. | [10.11 p.m. |
| Baird, J. L. | Eyres-Monsell, Bolton M. | Pryce-Jones, Colonel E. |
| Bridgeman, W. Clive | Goldsmith, Frank | |
| Campbell, Captain Duncan F. (Ayr, N.) | Henderson, Major H. (Berks, Abingdon) | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr. Hogge and Mr. Morton. |
| Craik, Sir Henry | Pirie, Duncan V. | |
| NOES. | ||
| Abraham, William (Dublin, Harbour) | Bathurst, Charles (Wilts, Wilton) | Buxton, Noel (Norfolk, North) |
| Adamson, William | Beale, Sir William Phipson | Carr-Gomm, H. W. |
| Ainsworth, John Stirling | Benn, Ion Hamilton (Greenwich) | Chancellor, H. G. |
| Allen, Arthur A. (Dumbarton) | Benn, W. W. (T. Hamlets, St. George) | Clancy, John Joseph |
| Allen, Rt. Hon. Charles P. (Stroud) | Boland, John Plus | Clough, William |
| Arnold, Sydney | Bowerman, Charles W. | Compton-Rickett, Rt. Hon. Sir J. |
| Baker, Joseph Allen (Finsbury, E.) | Boyle, Daniel (Mayo, North) | Condon, Thomas Joseph |
| Balfour, Sir Robert (Lanark) | Boyton, James | Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. |
| Barnes, George N. | Brace, William | Cotton, William Francis |
| Barren, Sir J. (Hawick Burghs) | Brady, P. J. | Cowan, W. H. |
| Barton, William | Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas | Crumley, Patrick |
| Cullinan, John | Kellaway, Frederick George | Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H. |
| Dalziel, Rt. Hon. Sir J. H. (Kirkcaldy) | Kelly, Edward | Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central) |
| Davies, Ellis William (Eifion) | Kilbride, Denis | Priestley, Sir W. E. B. (Bradford, E.) |
| Davies, Sir W. Howall (Bristol, S.) | King, J. | Raffan, Peter Wilson |
| Delany, William | Lambert, Rt. Hon. G. (Devon, S. Molton) | Rea, Rt. Hon. Russell (South Shields) |
| Denman, Hon. Richard Douglas | Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade) | Rea, Walter Russell (Scarborough) |
| Devlin, Joseph | Lardner, James C. R. | Reddy, Michael |
| Dewar, Sir J. A. | Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, West) | Redmond, William Archer (Tyrone, E.) |
| Dillon, John | Leach, Charles | Richardson, Albion (Peckham) |
| Doris, William | Lewis, Rt. Hon. John Herbert | Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln) |
| Duffy, William J. | Lough, Rt. Hon. Thomas | Roberts, G. H. (Norwich) |
| Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness) | Lundon, Thomas | Robertson, John M. (Tyneside) |
| Elverston, Sir Harold | Lyell, Charles Henry | Robinson, Sidney |
| Esmonde, Dr. John (Tipperary, N.) | Lynch, A. A. | Roche, Augustine (Louth) |
| Esmonde, Sir Thomas (Wexford, N.) | Lyttelton, Hon J. C. (Droitwich) | Roe, Sir Thomas |
| Essex, Sir Richard Walter | Macdonald, J. Ramsay (Leicester) | Rowntree, Arnold |
| Esslemont, George Birnie | Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk Burghs) | Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees) |
| Falconer, J. | McGhee, Richard | Samuel, Samuel (Wandsworth) |
| Fenwick, Rt. Hon. Charles | Macnamara, Rt. Hon. Dr. T. J. | Scanlan, Thomas |
| Ferens, Rt. Hon. Thomas Robinson | MacVeagh, Jeremiah | Scott, A. MacCallum (Glas., Bridgeton) |
| Ffrench, Peter | M'Callum, Sir John M. | Sheeny, David |
| Fitzgibbon, John | M'Laren, Hon. F. W. S. (Lines, Spalding) | Sherwell, Arthur James |
| Flavin, Michael Joseph | M'Micking, Major Gilbert | Shortt, Edward |
| France, Gerald Ashburner | Manfield, Harry | Smith, Albert (Lanes., Clitheroe) |
| Gladstone, W. G. C. | Marks, Sir George Croydon | Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.) |
| Goldstone, Frank | Marshall, Arthur Harold | Spear, Sir John Ward |
| Greene, W. R. | Meagher, Michael | Stanier, Beville |
| Greig, Colonel J. W. | Meehan, Patrick J. (Queen's Co., Leix) | Strauss, Edward A. (Southwark, West) |
| Gwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway) | Millar, James Duncan | Sutherland, John E. |
| Hackett, John | Molloy, Michael | Sutton, John E. |
| Hancock, John George | Mooney, John J. | Talbot, Lord E. |
| Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose) | Morgan, George Hay | Thomas, J. H. |
| Harmsworth, Cecil (Luton, Beds) | Morison, Hector | Thynne, Lord Alexander |
| Harmsworth, R. L. (Caithness-shire) | Muldoon, John | Toulmin, Sir George |
| Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale) | Munro, R. | Ure, Rt. Hon. Alexander |
| Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth) | Murphy, Martin J. | Wadsworth, J. |
| Havelock-Allan, Sir Henry | Neilson, Francis | Walsh, Stephen (Lanes., Ince) |
| Hayden, John Patrick | Nolan, Joseph | Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney) |
| Hayward, Evan | Nugent, Sir Walter Richard | White, J. Dundas (Glasgow, Tradeston) |
| Hazleton, Richard | Nuttall, Harry | White, Sir Luke (Yorks, E. R.) |
| Henderson, Arthur (Durham) | O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) | White, Patrick (Meath, North) |
| Higham, John Sharp | O'Doherty, Philip | Whitehouse, John Howard |
| Hinds, John | O'Dowd, John | Whyte, A. F. (Perth) |
| Hodge, John | O'Kelly, Edward P. (Wicklow, W.) | Wiles, Thomas |
| Holmes, Daniel Turner | O'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, S.) | Williams, Llewelyn (Carmarthen) |
| Hope, Harry (Bute) | O'Shaughnessy, P. J. | Williams, Penry (Middlesbrough) |
| Hope, Major J. A. (Midlothian) | O'Shee, James John | Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton) |
| Hughes, Spencer Leigh | O'Sullivan, Timothy | Wood, Rt. Hon. T. McKinnon (Glasgow) |
| Jones, Edgar (Merthyr Tydvil) | Parkes, Ebenezer | Young, William (Perth, East) |
| Jones, H. Haydn (Merioneth) | Parry, Thomas H. | Younger, Sir George |
| Jones, J. Towyn (Carmarthen, East) | Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek) | Yoxall, Sir James Henry |
| Jones, Leif Stratten (Notts, Rushcliffe) | Peel, Lieut-Colonel R. F. | |
| Jones, William (Carnarvonshire) | Phillips, John (Longford, S.) | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr. Illingworth and Mr. Gulland. |
| Joyce, Michael | Pointer, Joseph | |
| Keating, Matthew | Pollock, Ernest Murray |
Original Question put, and agreed to.