§ Motion made, and Question put, "That on this day, notwithstanding anything in Standing Order No. 15, Business other than Business of Supply may be taken before Eleven of the clock."—[The Prime Minister.]
§ The House divided: Ayes, 266; Noes, 132.
763| Division No. 239.] | AYES. | [3.54 p.m. |
| Abraham, William (Dublin, Harbour) | Flavin, Michael Joseph | Morison, Hector |
| Acland, Francis Dyke | France, G. A. | Morton, Alpheus Cleophas |
| Adamson, William | Furness, Sir Stephen Wilson | Muldoon, John |
| Addison, Dr. Christopher | Gill, A. H. | Munro, Robert |
| Adkins, Sir W. Ryland D. | Gladstone, W. G. C. | Munro-Ferguson, Rt. Hon. R. C. |
| Agnew, Sir George William | Glanville, Harold James | Murray, Captain Hon. Arthur C. |
| Ainsworth, John Stirling | Goldstone, Frank | Neilson, Francis |
| Alden, Percy | Greenwood, Granville G. (Peterborough) | Nicholson, Sir Charles N. (Doncaster) |
| Allen, Arthur A. (Dumbartonshire) | Greig, Colonel J. W. | Nolan, Joseph |
| Allen, Rt. Hon. Charles P. (Stroud) | Guest, Major Hon. C. H. C. (Pembroke) | Norton, Capt. Cecil W. |
| Arnold, Sydney | Guest, Hon. Frederick E. (Dorset, E.) | Nugent, Sir Walter Richard |
| Asquith, Rt. Hon. Herbert Henry | Gwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway) | Nuttall, Harry |
| Atherley-Jones, Llewellyn A. | Hackett, John | O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) |
| Baker, Harold T. (Accrington) | Hancock, John George | O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.) |
| Baker, Joseph Allen (Finsbury, E.) | Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Lewis (Rossendale) | O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool) |
| Balfour, Sir Robert (Lanark) | Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose) | O'Doherty, Philip |
| Baring, Sir Godfrey (Barnstaple) | Hardie, J. Keir | O'Donnell, Thomas |
| Barlow, Sir John Emmott (Somerset) | Harmsworth, Cecil (Luton, Beds) | O'Dowd, John |
| Barnes, George N. | Harmsworth, R. L. (Caithness-shire) | O'Grady, James |
| Barran, Sir John N. (Hawick) | Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, West) | O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N.) |
| Barran, Rowland Hurst (Leeds, N.) | Hayden, John Patrick | O'Malley, William |
| Barton, William | Hayward, Evan | O'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, S.) |
| Beale, Sir William Phipson | Hazleton, Richard | O'Shee, James John |
| Beauchamp, Sir Edward | Henderson, Arthur (Durham) | O'Sullivan, Timothy |
| Beck, Arthur Cecil | Henry, Sir Charles | Outhwaite, R. L. |
| Benn, W. W. (T. Hamlets, St. George) | Hewart, Gordon | Palmer, Godfrey Mark |
| Bentham, G. J. | Higham, John Sharp | Parker, James (Halifax) |
| Bethell, Sir J. H. | Hinds, John | Parry, Thomas H. |
| Birrell, Rt Hon. Augustine | Hodge, John | Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek) |
| Boland, John Pius | Hogge, James Myles | Pease, Rt. Hon. Joseph A. (Rotherham) |
| Booth, Frederick Handel | Holmes, Daniel Turner | Phillips, John (Longford, S.) |
| Bowerman, Charles W. | Holt, Richard Durning | Pointer, Joseph |
| Boyle, Daniel (Mayo, North) | Horne, Charles Silvester (Ipswich) | Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H. |
| Brace, William | Howard, Hon. Geoffrey | Priestley, Sir W. E. B. (Bradford, E.) |
| Brady, Patrick Joseph | Hughes, Spencer Leogh | Pringle, William M. R. |
| Brunner, John F. L. | Isaacs, Rt. Hon. Sir Rufus | Radford, G. H. |
| Burke, E. Havlland- | Jones, Rt.Hon.Sir D.Brynmor (Swansea) | Raffan, Peter Wilson |
| Burns, Rt. Hon. John | Jones, J. Towyn (Carmarthen, East) | Raphael, Sir Herbert H. |
| Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas | Jones, William (Carnarvonshire) | Rea, Rt. Hon. Russell (South Shields) |
| Buxton, Noel (Norfolk, North) | Jones, William S. Glyn- (Stepney) | Rea, Walter Russell (Scarborough) |
| Buxton, Rt. Hon. Sydney C. (Poplar) | Joyce, Michael | Reddy, Michael |
| Byles, Sir William Pollard | Kellaway, Frederick George | Redmond, John E. (Waterford) |
| Carr-Gomm, H. W. | Kelly, Edward | Redmond, William (Clare, E.) |
| Cawley, Sir Frederick (Prestwich) | Kennedy, Vincent Paul | Redmond, William Archer (Tyrone, E.) |
| Cawley, Harold T. (Lancs., Heywood) | Kilbride, Denis | Rendall, Athelstan |
| Chancellor, Henry George | King, Joseph | Richardson, Albion (Peckham) |
| Chapple, Dr. William Allen | Lambert, Rt. Hon. G. (Devon, S. Molton) | Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln) |
| Clancy, John Joseph | Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade) | Roberts, George H. (Norwich) |
| Clough, William | Lardner, James C. R. | Roberts, Sir J. H. (Denbighs) |
| Compton-Rickett, Rt. Hon. Sir J. | Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, West) | Robertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradford) |
| Condon, Thomas Joseph | Lawson, Sir W. (Cumb'rld, Cockerm'th) | Robertson, John M. (Tyneside) |
| Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. | Leach, Charles | Robinson, Sidney |
| Cory, Sir Clifford John | Levy, Sir Maurice | Roche, Augustine (Louth) |
| Cotton, William Francis | Lewis, Rt. Hon. John Herbert | Roe, Sir Thomas |
| Cowan, W. H. | Low, Sir Frederick (Norwich) | Rowlands, James |
| Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth) | Lundon, Thomas | Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland) |
| Crumley, Patrick | Lyell, Charles Henry | Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees) |
| Cullinan, John | Lynch, A. A. | Scan Ian, Thomas |
| Dalziel, Rt. Hon. Sir J. H. (Kirkcaldy) | Macdonald, J. Ramsay (Leicester) | Schwann, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles E. |
| Davies, Timothy (Lincs., Louth) | McGhee, Richard | Scott, A. MacCallum (Glas., Bridgeton) |
| Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.) | Maclean, Donald | Seely, Rt. Hon. Colonel J. E. B. |
| Dawes, J. A. | Macnamara, Rt. Hon. Dr. T. J. | Sheehy, David |
| De Forest, Baron | MacNeill, J. G. Swift (Donegal, South) | Shortt, Edward |
| Delany, William | Macpherson, James Ian | Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir John Allsebrook |
| Denman, Hon. Richard Douglas | MacVeagh, Jeremiah | Smith, Albert (Lancs., Clitheroe) |
| Devlin, Joseph | M'Callum, Sir John M. | Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.) |
| Dickinson, W. H. | McKenna, Rt Hon. Reginald | Soames, Arthur Wellesley |
| Dillon, John | M'Laren, Hon. F.W.S. (Lincs, Spalding) | Stanley, Albert (Staffs, N.W.) |
| Donelan, Captain A. | Marks, Sir George Croydon | Strauss, Edward A. (Southwark, West) |
| Doris, William | Marshall, Arthur Harold | Sutherland, John E. |
| Duffy, William J. | Martin, Joseph | Sutton, John E. |
| Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness) | Mason, David M. (Coventry) | Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe) |
| Edwards, Sir Francis (Radnor) | Masterman, Rt. Hon. C. F. G. | Taylor, Thomas (Bolton) |
| Elverston, Sir Harold | Meagher, Michael | Tennant, Harold John |
| Esmonde, Dr. John (Tipperary, N.) | Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.) | Thomas, J. H. |
| Esmonde, Sir Thomas (Wexford, N.) | Meehan, Patrick J. (Queen's Co., Leix) | Thorne, William (West Ham) |
| Essex, Sir Richard Walter | Molloy, Michael | Toulmin, Sir George |
| Fenwick, Rt. Hon. Charles | Molteno, Percy Alport | Trevelyan, Charles Philips |
| Ffrench, Peter | Montagu, Hon. E. S. | Ure, Rt. Hon. Alexander |
| Field, William | Mooney, John J. | Verney, Sir Harry |
| Fiennes, Hon. Eustace Edward | Morgan, George Hay | Wadsworth, John |
| Fitzgibbon, John | Morrell, Philip | Walsh, Stephen (Lancs., Incs) |
| Walters, Sir John Tudor | White, Patrick (Meath, North) | Wing, Thomas Edward |
| Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent) | Whittaker, Rt. Hon. Sir Thomas P. | Wood, Rt. Hon. T. McKinnon (Glasgow) |
| Wardle, George J. | Whyte, A. F. (Perth) | Young, William (Perth, East) |
| Waring, Walter | Wiles, Thomas | Yoxall, Sir James Henry |
| Warner, Sir Thomas Courtenay T. | Williamson, Sir Archibald | |
| Webb, H. | Wilson Hon. G. G. (Hull, W.) | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— Mr. Illingworth and Mr. Gulland. |
| Wedgwood, Josiah C. | Wilson Rt. Hon. J. W. (Worcs., N.) | |
| White, J. Dundas (Glasgow, Tradeston) | Wilson W. T. (Westhoughton) |
| NOES. | ||
| Agg-Gardner, James Tynte | Flannery, Sir J. Fortescue | M'Neill, Ronald (Kent, St. Augustine's) |
| Anson, Rt. Hon. Sir William R. | Fletcher, John Samuel | Mason, James F. (Windsor) |
| Archer-Shee, Major Martin | Forster, Henry William | Mildmay, Francis Bingham |
| Astor, Waldort | Gastrell, Major W. Houghton | Morrison-Bell, Capt. E. F. (Ashburton) |
| Baird, John Lawrence | Gibbs, G. A. | Nield, Herbert |
| Baker, Sir Randolf L. (Dorset, N.) | Gilmour, Captain John | Orde-Powlett, Hon. W. G. A. |
| Baldwin, Stanley | Glazebrook, Captain Philip K. | Ormsby-Gore, Hon William |
| Banbury, Sir Frederick George | Goldsmith, Frank | Parker, Sir Gilbert (Gravesend) |
| Barnston, Harry | Gordon, John (Londonderry, South) | Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington) |
| Bathurst, Charles (Wilts, Wilton) | Goulding, Edward Alfred | Peto, Basil Edward |
| Beach, Hon. Michael Hugh Hicks | Grant, J. A. | Pollock, Ernest Murray |
| Beckett, Hon. Gervase | Greene, W. R. | Remnant, James Farquharson |
| Benn, Arthur Shirley (Plymouth) | Gretton, John | Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall) |
| Benn, Ion Hamilton (Greenwich) | Guinness, Hon. W. E. (Bury S. Edmunds) | Ronaldshay, Earl of |
| Bennett-Goldney, Francis | Gwynne, R. S. (Sussex, Eastbourne) | Rutherford, John (Lancs., Darwen) |
| Bentinck, Lord H. Cavendish- | Hall, Frederick (Dulwich) | Samuel, Sir Harry (Norwood) |
| Blair, Reginald | Hamilton, C. G. C. (Ches., Altrincham) | Sanders, Robert Arthur |
| Boles, Lieut.-Colonel Dennis Fortescue | Hardy, Rt. Hon. Laurence | Sanderson, Lancelot |
| Boyle, William (Norfolk, Mid) | Harris, Henry Percy | Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.) |
| Boyton, James | Henderson, Major H. (Berks, Abingdon) | Smith, Harold (Warrington) |
| Bridgeman, William Clive | Herbert, Hon. A. (Somerset, S.) | Spear, Sir John Ward |
| Burn, Colonel C. R. | Hewins, William Albert Samuel | Stanley, Major Hon. G. F. (Preston) |
| Campbell, Captain Duncan F. (Ayr, N.) | Hills, John Waller | Sykes, Alan John (Ches., Knutsford) |
| Cassel, Felix | Hoare, Samuel John Gurney | Talbot, Lord Edmund |
| Castlereagh, Viscount | Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield) | Terrell, George (Wilts, N.W.) |
| Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) | Hope, Major J. A. (Midlothian) | Terrell, Henry (Gloucester) |
| Cecil, Lord Hugh (Oxford University) | Horner, Andrew Long | Thompson, Robert (Belfast, North) |
| Cecil, Lord R. (Herts, Hitchin) | Houston, Robert Paterson | Thomson, W. Mitchell- (Down, North) |
| Chaloner, Colonel R. G. W. | Hunt, Rowland | Thynne, Lord Alexander |
| Clay, Captain H. H. Spender | Hunter, Sir Charles Rodk. | Tobin, Altred Aspinall |
| Clive, Captain Percy Archer | Jessel, Captain H. M. | Tryon, Captain George Clement |
| Clyde, J. Avon | Kerry, Earl of | Tullibardine, Marquess of |
| Craig, Ernest (Cheshire, Crewe) | Keswick, Henry | Weston, Colonel J. W. |
| Craik, Sir Henry | Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement | Wheler, Granville C. H. |
| Dalrymple, Viscount | Larmor, Sir J. | White, Major G. D. (Lancs., Southport) |
| Denison-Pender, J. C. | Law, Rt. Hon. A. Bonar (Bootle) | Willoughby, Major Hon. Claud |
| Denniss, E. R. B. | Lawson, Hon. H. (T. H' mts., Mile End) | Wilson, A. Stanley (Yorks, E.R.) |
| Dickson, Rt. Hon. C. Scott | Lee, Arthur H. | Wolmer, Viscount |
| Duke, Henry Edward | Lewisham, Viscount | Wood, John (Stalybridge) |
| Duncannon, Viscount | Lloyd, George Ambrose (Stafford, W.) | Worthington-Evans, L. |
| Eyres-Monsell, Bolton M. | Lloyd, George Butler (Shrewsbury) | Yate, Colonel Charles Edward |
| Falle, Bertram Godfray | Locker-Lampson, G. (Salisbury) | Younger, Sir George |
| Fell, Arthur | Lonsdale, Sir John Brownlee | |
| Fetherstonhaugh, Godfrey | Lyttelton, Hon. J. C. (Droitwich) | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Colonel Hickman and Mr. Kerr-Smiley. |
| Fitzroy, Hon. Edward A. | Mackinder, H. J. |
§ Motion made, and Question proposed, "That, notwithstanding anything in Standing Order No. 15, Supplementary Estimates for new Services and the Civil Services Excess Estimates, 1911–12, may be considered in Committee of Supply this day."—[The Prime Minister.]
§ Sir F. BANBURYThe effect of this Motion, if passed, would be to do within the allotted days something which ought to be done somewhere else; that is to say, the twenty allotted days for the purposes of practical discussion are diminished by this Motion of the Prime Minister. Those of us who were in the House in 1902, and amongst them was the hon. Member for East Mayo (Mr. Dillon), remember the criticism made upon the Rules of Procedure 764 moved by the then Leader of the House (Mr. Balfour), my right hon. Friend the senior Member for the City of London, to the effect that he was not giving sufficient time for the consideration of Supply, and one of the cries raised against the Tory party was that sufficient time was not given to one of the most important functions of Parliament, namely, the granting of Supply, and the late Lord Wolverhampton, Sir Henry Fowler as he then was, made a very strong indictment against the Tory party, on the ground that sums of money were being voted on the last of the twenty days without any proper consideration and without proper Debate. If hon. Members will look at Standing Order 15, they will see that paragraph (3) states:— 765
Provided that the days occupied by the consideration of Estimates supplementary to those of a previous Session, or of any Vote of credit, or of Votes for Supplementary or Additional Estimates presented by the Government for war expenditure, or for any new Service not included in the ordinary Estimtaes for the year, shall not be included in the computation of the twenty days aforesaid.To pass this Motion would be to cancel that Order. The Order was put in in order to preserve to the House the right of criticising the Estimates as they were brought forward. I think everybody will admit that twenty days is all too short a time for that criticism, and it was expressly provided in this Order that if Estimates for new Services were brought forward they should be considered separately, and not considered in the twenty days. I have not been able to look up every year back to 1902, and I can only trust to my recollection, and my recollection last year and the year before was that they were the only years in which this rule was broken. It was certainly broken last year, and it was broken, I believe, the year before. Last year when it was broken my Noble Friend, who was then Chief Whip, opposed the Motion, and he made a quotation from a speech of the hon. Member for Mayo at the time when these rules were passed. He quoted from "Hansard" on the 25th April, 1902, and he said that the discussion on this matter extended to three columns of "Hansard," and he pointed out that the Member for Mayo said:—that if the amendment of the right hon. Gentleman—that is the present senior Member for the City of London—were carried, the provision to which he was referring would be rendered unnecessary, because when any new Service or Supplementary Estimates not dealt with or provided for in the Estimates of the year was proposed, it must be taken not within twenty days, but in time provided by the Government.Mr. Balfour: Any new Service not included in the ordinary Estimates of the year, such as the loan referred to by the hon. Member, would be a new Service, and if the rule is passed in the shape in which it appears on the Paper. and with this Amendment, 'not later than two days before the Committee is closed, it would not come within the purview of the twenty-three days at all.Mr. Dillon said the Amendment of the right hon. Gentleman would do away with the difficulty which arose last year, and that being so he thought the concession a very substantial one.We divided upon this Motion last year, and I see that the sense of the House was so strongly in our favour that the Government 766 only carried their Motion by a majority of three. I do not know whether the hon. Member for East Mayo was with us or not, but I hope on this occasion we shall find him in our Lobby. The Chancellor of the Exchequer, in reply to my Noble Friend last year, giving the reason for this Motion, said there was an appeal made by the Opposition for more time to discuss these new sources which in the ordinary course would come within the twenty days, and he went on to say that those services had been discussed over and over again, and that he understood that on Monday there would be another discussion upon the same services. That argument does not apply to-day, because these services, whatever they are, and I expect the right hon. Gentleman the Member for the Duchy of Lancaster is to have charge of them, have not been discussed up to now, and the argument that they should come under the guillotine, and not be discussed at all, though possibly it may have been done before, is, I venture to say, in direct contradiction of the spirit of Standing Order 15. Standing Order 15, paragraph (10) says:—Any additional Estimate for any new matter not included in the original Estimates for the year shall be submitted for consideration in the Committee of Supply on some day not later than two days before the Committee is closed.I believe it is held in some quarters, though I cannot conceive how it could hold water, that merely putting a Supply note upon the Paper means it is to be considered. I think if hon. Members will look up paragraph (3) of the Standing Order they will see that it is provided that the Committee of Supply is to be occupied by the considerations of the Estimates. The very same word is used in paragraph (3) as in paragraph (10), and in the ordinary meaning of the English language, consideration means consideration, and does not mean putting something down upon the Paper which is not considered. Therefore, I submit that the real meaning of paragraph (10) in Standing Order 15 is that the Estimates must be put down before the close of Supply. It has nothing to do with the twenty days, and that these matters ought to be properly considered, and, therefore, the right course for the right hon. Gentleman is to give a day on which these new services could be con- 767 sidered. What would be the effect of the Motion of the right hon. Gentleman if carried? The effect would be that these new services will not be considered at all. They will come under the guillotine. There may be one, two, three, four, or five new services. That makes the matter all the worse. My argument is this: That it was never intended by the Supply rule that these new services should be guillotined at 10 o'clock on the last of the twenty days, and the effect of the right hon. Gentleman's Motion is this, that he need not grant any day for the discussion of these new services, and by making this Motion they will be guillotined and will never be considered at all. To my mind, it is perfectly evident that what the right hon. Gentleman proposes is to get behind the rule—I do not say that in any offensive sense—and to avoid giving an extra day for the discussion of the new Estimates, whereas it was the intention of the rule that they should be properly considered. My point is that the number of days given to the consideration of Estimates by the Standing Orders of 1902 are, at any rate, not too much or too many.There are not too many of these days, and therefore any attempt to get round them and read into the Standing Orders, a meaning which I do not believe it was ever intended they should have, and by that means to obtain by a Motion of this sort the right to take them under the guillotine is a distinct breach of the understanding which was arrived at in 1902, and is really a breach of the Standing Orders. This is a very simple point, but it is also a very important one. I know the right hon. Gentleman can carry his Motion if he puts on the Whips, but on this question I hope the hon. Member for East Mayo will appear with us in our Lobby. But whether that is so or not, I appeal to hon. Members on both sides not to do anything which will take away the power of this House to consider questions of Supply. It is a most important matter, and I hope hon. Members opposite will back me up in appealing to the Government not to press this Motion, but to give us another day. It is only a question of one day, and it might even be half a day. Surely it is worth while to sit for one more day in order to preserve the Supply Rule intact and secure that proper consideration shall be given to Supply. This is all the more important now in view of the fact 768 that we have removed the consideration of Money Bills from the House of Lords. We are now the only people who have to consider the expenditure of the nation, and therefore it is necessary to have an extension of the number of days and not a reduction. I hope the right hon. Gentleman will again show that he can rise to the spirit of the occasion.
§ The PRIME MINISTER (Mr. Asquith)Let me point out to the hon. Baronet that the provision in the rule to which he has referred was put in upon the assumption that there would be twenty days, and only twenty days, devoted to the consideration of Supply. This Session we have voluntarily given twenty-one days, and that is an extra day. As regards the new services to which the hon. Gentleman has referred, if it had been intimated to us that their discussion at this stage was regarded as a matter of importance we should certainly have considered the matter either as regards to-day or next Monday. No such request was made, and I do not really understand why it was not made. Let me point out that paragraph 10 has been construed as meaning that the Estimates shall be submitted two days before the final date mentioned in the rule. I agree that the House ought to look with great jealousy upon any curtailment of the discussion of new services. It is, however, of great importance to see what these new services are, and whether they have or have not already been discussed. These particular new services are almost all services necessitated by legislation which was not introduced in time to be provided for in the ordinary Estimates. The first item is in regard to the Mental Deficiency Bill. The Resolution upon which that Bill is founded both in Committee and on Report was allowed the greatest possible discussion, which was fully taken advantage of, in order to debate this very matter, therefore, although technically this is a new service it has already been very carefully reviewed by the House both in Committee and on the Report stage, and during the discussion of the Bill upstairs. In regard to the next item it is for education, and that is divided under two heads: £50,000 for medical treatment, as to which there is no difference of opinion in any quarter of the House, and as for the remaining £100,000 it is contingent upon the passing of the Bill.
The third new service is an item of £2,600 for a purpose which nobody I am 769 sure desires to contest. The same applies to the £1,500 for the Superannuation Fund. The next item is for expenses under the Unemployed Workmen's Act, which every year since 1905 have been provided for exactly in this way. The final item is for the Islands and Highlands, and that has been discussed on a Resolution in Committee and on Report as well as on the Bill in Committee upstairs. There has been in regard to every matter which can be regarded in the faintest degree as contentious under these services an opportunity for discussion, which has been taken full advantage of by the House itself. If we were seeking to pass under the guise of a Supplementary Estimate some novel form of expenditure, I agree that the House ought to have an opportunity of discussing it, and pronouncing an opinion upon it, but that is not the case. With regard to the item for education, it is founded upon the Bill, and if the Bill does not pass then the Resolution falls to the ground. If any intimation had been given to us of a desire to discuss these services we should have given it the most careful attention. We have already given an extra day for consideration of Supply, and we have done everything in our power to afford opportunities for discussing. In this matter we are certainly acting in accordance with precedents adopted by the House of Commons over a considerable series of years, and what we are now asking for is a very modest demand upon the time of the House.
§ Mr. BONAR LAWThe right hon. Gentleman is always extremely reasonable in speech, but it seems to me that he has himself given away his own case in one of the reasons he has given in reference to the Education Bill. The right hon. Gentleman accepts the principle that if there is any new Estimate which can be considered contentious it ought not to be passed under the guillotine without the House having some opportunity of discussing it. That is precisely the case with regard to the Education Bill. The Prime Minister said that if the Bill does not pass there will be no Estimate needed, but if it does pass then precisely the position which he says ought not to exist will exist. That new service, I am told, is contentious inasmuch as it repeals part of the Act. to which some of us object, without any possibility of discussion in any shape or form. I quite agree that taking all the other cases the principle is one upon which we are all agreed, because there was some opportunity given for discussion, and therefore the argument of 770 the right hon. Gentleman holds good. But in regard to this particular matter of education there is no possibility of discussion, and on the principle which the right hon. Gentleman has himself laid down some opportunity should be given to enable the House to express its opinion.
§ The PRESIDENT of the BOARD of EDUCATION (Mr. Pease)May I point out that the £100,000 to which the right hon. Gentleman referred was the subject of a full Debate on Tuesday last when I introduced the Education Bill. A whole day was given to the introduction of the Bill, and this proposal in connection with that Bill is to allow this £100,000 to be distributed.
§ Lord HUGH CECILThe right hon. Gentleman must remember that on the introduction of a Bill the Debate may turn in quite another channel. The proposal which the President of the Board of Education made was very imperfectly understood at that time so far as this part of it was concerned. As regards the £100,000 nobody was quite clear as to what the money was intended for, or how it was to be spent. I understood that the whole matter was to be postponed until next year.
§ Mr. PEASEI said at the outset of my speech that £100,000 would be placed upon the Estimates for this year.
§ Lord HUGH CECILAt any rate it is certainly a controversial proposal. There may be a good case for the State using money in this way, but we regard it as open to very grave objection to give to a Board of Education, notoriously so unfair as the present Board is, so large a fund to further their own objects, especially when this is brought forward in a, way which destroys the Supply Rule and breaks the understanding on which that rule was passed, which was that no controversial items should be brought in at the last moment under the guillotine. That really is to outrage the Standing Orders and treat them as a flexible matter and not a fixed rule. The Government ought not to vary this rule whenever it happens to suit their purpose. After all, if we are to maintain any respect for the procedure of this House our Standing Orders must not be lightly set aside. This particular Standing Order was carefully constructed, and it does contain an element of elasticity. There is a provision to allow three extra days, and also an express provision for altering the days on which 771 Supply may be taken and other provisions of that kind, making the rule flexible. It is clear that this Standing Order was meant to be adhered to subject to those flexible elements in it, and above all it was intended that no new Vote was to be put in the Estimates at this stage of the Session merely to suit the views of the Government. The Standing Orders were not made to be set aside to suit the convenience of the Government. And we do not know. We are not told whether the Bill really will or really can pass in the next fortnight. We are not told, therefore, whether this will come into force or not, or whit will happen to it if it does not came into force. The Prime Minister said that if the Bill does not pass the £100,000 will not be used, but I assume it will form part of the Appropriation Bill and will be, or may be, used. The right hon. Gentleman shakes his head. On previous occasions Votes have appeared in the Appropriation Bill and have been used, but. I think the right hon. Gentleman is mistaken. Four years ago there was a Vote put in the Appropriation Bill for building new schools contrary to the provisions of these Sections, and, therefore, it is not quite correct to say that it is not the intention of the Government to act upon it. They would have legislative authority for doing so.
§ The PRIME MINISTERI said we should not act upon it. In the case referred to it was expressed avowedly.
§ Lord HUGH CECILBut, surely, of all the. slovenly and unbusinesslike ways of doing business and dealing with public money, the most slovenly is to carry a Vote under the guillotine and to found upon that an Appropriation Bill which gives you legislative authority to do a thing which you yourselves think would be improper and unconstitutional! The right hon. Gentleman says, not untruly, that the Grants of medical treatment are not controversial matters. Why not bring up a Vote for that alone, which would pass practically without discussion, and drop this £100,000—at any rate until you have seen whether your Bill passes or not? If it does pass, that will be time to bring up a new Vote and pass it into law. The present procedure indicates that the Government does not care about Parliamentary procedure, and is prepared to treat even in the matter of Supply, on which of all matters the House of Commons is 772 supposed to be most sensitive, all forms as negligible so long as it suits their convenience. I hope the House will reject the Motion of the Prime Minister.
§ Sir WILLIAM ANSONI do not think the President of the Board of Education has taken a fair account of our discussion last night. It is perfectly true that he said he proposed to introduce a Bill to make a Grant, among other things, of £100,000 to assist the education authorities in building loans, but to say we have an opportunity of discussing this Money Resolution on the introduction of the Bill is really not quite a, fair representation of the Debate of last night. It now appears that this Bill really was a Money Bill. It was suggested by my Noble Friend in the course of the Debate that it. was a Money Bill, and also was a Money Resolution. It now appears that the Bill is a Money Bill, because it cannot take effect, if I understand the Prime Minister rightly, unless the Supplemetary Estimate is granted. Supposing the Government drops the Bill, they have got their money under the Resolution they will pass to-night, and they will obtain power, as they did in the year 1907, to expend money on the building of schools contrary to the provisions of the Act of 1870, and I submit that is not a fair way of dealing with this topic, which is really of great importance to those interested in the welfare of both county and voluntary schools.
§ Mr. MITCHELL-THOMSONThere is another aspect which shows that this is really a slovenly way of doing financial business. Take the Estimate for the Highlands and Islands service. There you have an Estimate of £45,000, the balance of which is not to be surrendered. Now the right hon. Gentleman was perfectly correct a moment ago when he said there was controversy going on as to the area to which this service is to be applied. There is, I believe, an acute controversy going on now in Committee upstairs. Now, really, is it not a ridiculous thing that, before you know the area to which your money is to be applied, you are solemnly to come down and vote a certain sum of money irrespective of the area and to devote it under the Closure without one single word of discussion, and without knowing what the Committee do, whether they widen the area or narrow it? If the Committee decide to narrow the area under this Estimate you are not to surrender 773 any unexpended balance. One cannot well imagine a more slovenly way of conducting our national finance, and 1 certainly hope the House will not agree to give the Government the authority asked for. At all events, if they do, I hope the right hon. Gentleman if he ever finds himself in similar circumstances again, will not say that this is a precedent which has gone without protest on this side. I believe that on every occasion the Government has brought it forward we have protested. At least, I remember the strong protest last year, and, with all respect to the right hon. Gentleman, I do not think he has fully answered my hon. Friend's point, and it is very unfortunate that we should be asked to vote this money under the guillotine in
§ the way we are now asked by the Government.
§ Mr. MUNRO-FERGUSONI do not know whether the hon. Member's case is good or not, but I do not think the example he cited is fortunate, because in the case of the Highlands and Islands it perfectly well known that it was because an area had been added that any discussion arose.
§ Question put, "That, notwithstanding anything in Standing Order No. 15, Supplementary Estimates for new Services and the Civil Services Excess Estimate, 1911–12, may be considered in Committee of Supply this day."
§ The House divided: Ayes, 261; Noes, 129.
775| Division No. 240.] | AYES. | [4.48 p.m. |
| Abraham, William (Dublin, Harbour) | Crumley, Patrick | Higham, John Sharp |
| Acland, Francis Dyke | Cullinan, John | Hinds, John |
| Adamson, William | Dalziel, Rt. Hon. Sir J. H. (Kirkcaldy) | Hodge, John |
| Addison, Dr. Christopher | Davies, Timothy (Lincs., Louth) | Hogge, James Myles |
| Adkins, Sir W. Ryland D. | Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.) | Holmes, Daniel Turner |
| Agnew, Sir George William | Dawes, James Arthur | Holt, Richard Durning |
| Ainsworth, John Stirling | De Forest, Baron | Home, Charles Silvester (Ipswich) |
| Alden, Percy | Delany, William | Howard, Hon. Geoffrey |
| Allen, Arthur A. (Dumbartonshire) | Denman, Hon. Richard Douglas | Hughes, Spencer Leigh |
| Allen, Rt. Hon. Charles P. (Stroud) | Devlin, Joseph | Isaacs, Rt. Hon. Sir Rufus |
| Arnold, Sydney | Dickinson, W. H. | Jones, Rt.Hon.Sir D.Brynmor (Swansea) |
| Asquith, Rt. Hon. Herbert Henry | Dillon, John | Jones, J. Towyn (Carmarthen, East) |
| Baker, Harold T. (Accrington) | Donelan, Captain A. | Jones, William (Carnarvonshire) |
| Baker, Joseph Allen (Finsbury, E.) | Doris, William | Jones, William S. Glyn- (Stepney) |
| Balfour, Sir Robert (Lanark) | Duffy, William J. | Joyce, Michael |
| Baring, Sir Godfrey (Barnstaple) | Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness) | Kellaway, Frederick George |
| Barlow, Sir John Emmott (Somerset) | Edwards, Sir Francis (Radnor) | Kelly, Edward |
| Barnes, George N. | Elverston, Sir Harold | Kennedy, Vincent Paul |
| Barran, Sir John N. (Hawick Burghs) | Esmonde, Dr. John (Tipperary, N.) | Kilbride, Denis |
| Barran, Rowland Hurst (Leads, N.) | Esmonde, Sir Thomas (Wexford, N.) | Lambert, Rt. Hon. G. (Devon, S. Molton) |
| Barton, William | Essex, Sir Richard Walter | Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade) |
| Beale, Sir William Phipson | Fenwick, Rt. Hon. Charles | Lardner, James C. R. |
| Beauchamp, Sir Edward | Firench, Peter | Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, West) |
| Beck, Arthur Cecil | Field, William | Lawson, Sir W. (Cumb'rld, Cockerm'th) |
| Benn, W. W. (T. Hamlets, St. George) | Fiennes, Hon. Eustace Edward | Leach, Charles |
| Bentham, G. J. | Fitzgibbon, John | Levy, Sir Maurice |
| Bethell, Sir J. H. | Flavin, Michael Joseph | Lewis, Rt. Hon. John Herbert |
| Boland, John Pius | France, Gerald Ashburner | Low, Sir Frederick (Norwich) |
| Booth, Frederick Handel | Furness, Sir Stephen Wilson | Lundon, Thomas |
| Bowerman, Charles W. | Gill, A. H. | Lyell, Charles Henry |
| Boyle, Daniel (Mayo, North) | Gladstone, W. G. C. | Lynch, A. A. |
| Brace, William | Glanville, Harold James | Macdonald, J. Ramsay (Leicester) |
| Brady, Patrick Joseph | Goldstone, Frank | McGhee, Richard |
| Brunner, John F. L. | Greenwood, Granville G. (Peterborough) | Maclean, Donald |
| Burke, E. Havlland- | Greig, Colonel J. W. | Macnamara, Rt. Hon. Dr. T. J. |
| Burns, Rt. Hon. John | Guest, Hon. Frederick E. (Dorset, E.) | MacNeill, J. G. Swift (Donegal, South) |
| Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas | Guest, Major Hon. C. H. C. (Pembroke) | Macpherson, James Ian |
| Buxton, Noel (Norfolk, North) | Gwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway) | MacVeagh, Jeremiah |
| Buxton, Rt. Hon. Sydney C. (Poplar) | Hackett, John | M'Callum, Sir John M. |
| Carr-Gomm, H. W. | Hancock, John George | McKenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald |
| Cawley, Sir Frederick (Prestwich) | Harcourt, Rt. Hon. L. (Rossendale) | M'Laren, Hon. F.W.S. (Lincs., Spalding) |
| Cawley, Harold T. (Lancs., Heywood) | Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose) | Marks, Sir George Croydon |
| Chancellor, Henry George | Hardle, J. Keir | Marshall, Arthur Harold |
| Chapple, Dr. William Allen | Harmsworth, Cecil B. (Luton, Beds) | Martin, Joseph |
| Clancy, John Joseph | Harmsworth, R. L. (Caithness-shire) | Mason, David M. (Coventry) |
| Clough, William | Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, West) | Meagher, Michael |
| Compton-Rickett, Rt. Hon. Sir J. | Hayden, John Patrick | Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.) |
| Condon, Thomas Joseph | Hayward, Evan | Meehan, Patrick J. (Queen's Co., Leix) |
| Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. | Hazleton, Richard | Molloy, Michael |
| Cory, Sir Clifford John | Henderson, Arthur (Durham) | Molteno, Percy Alport |
| Cotton, William Francis | Henderson, J. M. (Aberdeen, W.) | Montagu, Hon. E. S. |
| Cowan, W. H. | Henry, Sir Charles | Mooney, John J. |
| Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth) | Hewart, Gordon | Morgan, George Hay |
| Morrell, Philip | Radford, G. H. | Sutton, John E. |
| Morison, Hector | Raffan, Peter Wilson | Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe) |
| Morton, Alpheus Cleophas | Raphael, Sir Herbert H. | Taylor, Thomas (Bolton) |
| Muldoon, John | Rea, Rt. Hon. Russell (South Shields) | Tennant, Harold John |
| Munro, Robert | Rea, Walter Russell (Scarborough) | Thomas, J. H. |
| Munro-Ferguson, Rt. Hon. R. C. | Reddy, Michael | Thorne, William (West Ham) |
| Neilson, Francis | Redmond, John E. (Waterford) | Toulmin, Sir George |
| Nicholson, Sir Charles N. (Doncaster) | Redmond, William (Clare, E.) | Trevelyan, Charles Philips |
| Nolan, Joseph | Redmond, William Archer (Tyrone, E.) | Ure, Rt. Hon. Alexander |
| Norton, Captain Cecil W. | Rendall, Athelstan | Verney, Sir Harry |
| Nugent, Sir Walter Richard | Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln) | Wadsworth, John |
| Nuttall, Harry | Roberts, George H. (Norwich) | Walsh, Stephen (Lancs., Ince) |
| O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) | Roberts, Sir J. H. (Denbighs) | Walters, Sir John Tudor |
| O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.) | Robertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradford) | Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent)- |
| O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool) | Robertson, John M. (Tyneside) | Wardle, George J. |
| O'Doherty, Philip | Robinson, Sidney | Waring, Walter |
| O'Donnell, Thomas | Roch, Walter F. (Pembroke) | Warner, Sir Thomas Courtenay T. |
| O'Dowd, John | Roche, Augustine (Louth) | Webb, H. |
| O'Grady, James | Roe Sir Thomas | Wedgwood, Josiah C. |
| O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N.) | Rowlands, James | White, J. Dundas (Glasgow, Tradeston) |
| O'Malley, William | Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland) | White, Patrick (Meath, North) |
| O'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, S.) | Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees) | Whittaker, Rt. Hon. Sir Thomas P. |
| O'Shee, James John | Scanlan, Thomas | Whyte, A. F. (Perth) |
| O'Sullivan, Timothy | Schwann, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles E. | Wiles, Thomas |
| Outhwaite, R. L. | Scott, A. MacCallum (Glas., Bridgeton) | Williamson, Sir Archibald |
| Palmer, Godfrey Mark | Seely, Rt. Hon. Colonel J. E. B. | Wilson, Hon. G. G. (Hull, W.) |
| Parker, James (Halifax) | Sheehy, David | Wilson, Rt. Hon. J. W. (Worcs., N.) |
| Parry, Thomas H. | Shortt, Edward | Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton) |
| Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek) | Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir John Allsebrook | Wing, Thomas Edward |
| Pease, Rt. Hon. Joseph A. (Rotherham) | Smith, Albert (Lancs., Clitheroe) | Wood, Rt. Hon. T. McKinnon (Glasgow) |
| Phillips, John (Longford, S.) | Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.) | Young, William (Perthshire, East) |
| Pointer, Joseph | Soames, Arthur Wellesley | Yoxall, Sir James Henry |
| Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H. | Stanley, Albert (Staffs, N.W.) | |
| Priestley, Sir W. E. B. (Bradford, E.) | Strauss, Edward A. (Southwark, West) | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr. Illingworth and Mr. Gulland. |
| Pringle, William M. R. | Sutherland, John E. | |
| NOES. | ||
| Agg-Gardner, James Tynte | Fletcher, John Samuel (Hampstead) | Lyttelton, Hon. J. C. (Droitwich) |
| Anson, Rt. Hon. Sir William R. | Forster, Henry William | Mackinder, H. J. |
| Astor, Waldorf | Gastrell, Major W. Houghton | M'Neill, Ronald (Kent, St. Augustine's) |
| Baird, J. L. | Gibbs, G. A. | Mildmay, Francis Bingham |
| Baker, Sir Randolf L. (Dorset, N.) | Gilmour, Captain John | Morrison-Bell, Capt. E. F. (Ashburton) |
| Baldwin, Stanley | Glazebrook, Captain Philip K. | Nield, Herbert |
| Banbury, Sir Frederick George | Goldsmith, Frank | O'Neill, Hon. A. E. B. (Antrim, Mid) |
| Baring, Major Hon. Guy V. (Winchester) | Gordon, John (Londonderry, South) | Orde-Powlett, Hon. W. G. A. |
| Barnston, Harry | Goulding, Edward Alfred | Ormsby-Gore, Hon William |
| Bathurst, Charles (Wilts, Wilton) | Grant, J. A. | Paget, Almeric Hugh |
| Beach, Hon. Michael Hugh Hicks | Greene, W. R. | Parker, Sir Gilbert (Gravesend) |
| Beckett, Hon. Gervase | Gretton, John | Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington) |
| Benn, Arthur Shirley (Plymouth) | Guinness, Hon. W. E. (Bury S. Edmunds) | Peto, Basil Edward |
| Bentinck, Lord H. Cavendish- | Gwynne, R. S. (Sussex, Eastbourne) | Pollock, Ernest Murray |
| Bird, Alfred | Hall, Frederick (Dulwich) | Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel |
| Blair, Reginald | Hamilton, C. G. C. (Ches., Altrincham) | Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall) |
| Boles, Lieut.-Colonel Dennis Fortescue | Hardy, Rt. Hon. Laurence | Rutherford, John (Lancs., Darwen) |
| Boyle, William (Norfolk, Mid) | Harris, Henry Percy | Samuel, Sir Harry (Norwood) |
| Boyton, James | Henderson, Major H. (Berks, Abingdon) | Sanders, Robert Arthur |
| Bridgeman, William Clive | Hewins, William Albert Samuel | Sanderson, Lancelot |
| Burn, Colonel C. R. | Hickman, Colonel T. E. | Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.) |
| Byles, Sir William Pollard | Hills, John Waller | Smith, Harold (Warrington) |
| Campbell, Captain Duncan, F. (Ayr, N.) | Hoare, Samuel John Gurney | Spear, Sir John Ward |
| Cassel, Felix | Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield) | Stanley, Hon. G F. (Preston) |
| Cautley, H. S. | Hope, Major J. A. (Midlothian) | Sykes, Alan John (Ches., Knutsford) |
| Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) | Horner, Andrew Long | Talbot, Lord Edmund |
| Cecil, Lord Hugh (Oxford University) | Houston, Robert Paterson | Terrell, G. (Wilts, N.W.) |
| Cecil, Lord R. (Herts, Hitchin) | Hunt, Rowland | Terrell, Henry (Gloucester) |
| Chaloner, Colonel R. G. W. | Hunter, Sir Charles Rodk. | Thomson, W. Mitchell- (Down, North) |
| Clay, Captain H. H. Spender | Jessel, Captain H. M. | Thynne, Lord Alexander |
| Clyde, J. Avon | Kerr-Smiley, Peter Kerr | Tobin, Alfred Aspinall |
| Craig, Ernest (Cheshire, Crewe) | Kerry, Earl of | Tryon, Captain George Clement |
| Craik, Sir Henry | Keswick, Henry | Weston, Colonel J. W. |
| Dalrymple, Viscount | Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement | Wheler, Granville C. H. |
| Denison-Pender, J. C. | Larmor, Sir J. | White, Major G. D. (Lancs., Southport) |
| Denniss, E. R. B. | Law, Rt. Hon. A. Bonar (Bootle) | Willoughby, Major Hon. Claud |
| Dickson, Rt. Hon. C. Scott | Lawson, Hon. H. (T. H' mts., Mile End) | Wilson, A. Stanley (Yorks, E.R.) |
| Duke, Henry Edward | Lewisham, Viscount | Wolmer, Viscount |
| Duncannon, Viscount | Lloyd, George Ambrose (Stafford, W.) | Wood, John (Stalybridge) |
| Eyres-Monsell, Bolton M. | Lloyd, George Butler (Shrewsbury) | Worthington-Evans, L. |
| Falle, Bertram Godfray | Locker-Lampson, G. (Salisbury) | Yate, Colonel Charles Edward |
| Fell, Arthur | Locker-Lampson, O. (Ramsey) | |
| Fetherstonhaugh, Godfrey | Lonsdale, Sir John Brownlee | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr. James Mason and Mr. Fitzroy. |
| Fisher, Rt. Hon. W. Hayes | Lowe, Sir F. (Birm., Edgbaston) |