HC Deb 29 July 1913 vol 56 cc474-81

31.—(1) If the Board report to the Secretary of State that a local authority have made default in the performance of any of their duties under this Act, the Secretary of State may, after holding a local inquiry in any case where he deems it desirable to do so, and on being satisfied that such default has taken place, by order require the local authority to do such acts and things for remedying the default as he may direct, and any such order may be enforced by mandamus.

(2) Any expenses incurred by or on behalf of the Secretary of State under any such order or in respect of any such default, or in respect of any such inquiry, shall if the Secretary of State so directs, be expenses of the local authority, and the treasurer or other proper officer of the local authority shall pay the amount of such expenses to the Secretary of State within two months after demand, and in default of payment the amount thereof shall be recoverable as a debt due to the Crown.

(3) An order of the Secretary of State shall be conclusive in respect of any default, amount of expenses, and any other matter therein stated or appearing; but nothing in this provision shall prejudice or affect the right or power of the Secretary of State or any other authority to take any other proceedings for requiring a local authority to perform their duties under this Act.

Mr. WEDGWOOD

I beg to move to leave out the Clause.

I do not for one moment expect that I shall be able to convince the House that this Clause should be struck out, but what I am trying to do in moving these Amendments is to make the House understand what a rotten Bill it is they are passing. Clause 31, I submit, is a thoroughly undesirable Clause from beginning to end. It gives the Secretary of State the power to coerce the local authorities by the old fashioned method of mandamus. I should have thought that Secretaries of State of the different Departments would now have understood that it is impossible to coerce local authorities by this antiquated means, although to stop the grant from the central authority has been efficacious in cases where the education department has had to deal with recalcitrant authorities. To try to coerce them

by mandamus is, however, little short of ridiculous, and, therefore, I hope the House will agree to strike out the Clause.

Mr. GOLDSMITH

I beg to second the Amendment, and I entirely agree with the hon. Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme that the power of mandamus is an absolutely useless weapon to turn against a local authority. The only method by which you can bring a local authority into line is by withholding grants. I second the Amendment also in order to try to get a definite statement from the Home Secretary that he only intends to act in cases where the local authority does not perform its duties, and then only in cases where the State pays half the cost. In all other cases I take it the State would not interfere, because in those cases the local authority—[HON MEMBERS: "Divide."] I know that nowadays when the House approves of the principle of a Bill, it thinks that the details ought to be passed without any further discussion, and it is because of that we sometimes get such slipshod legislation. This is a Bill of great importance, and I think we are entitled to discuss its details. I do not see why those who do not take an interest in the measure should not go home and have a peaceful night, but at any rate they might allow other members, who really desire to make improvements in the measure, to pursue their task without interruption.

Mr. COTTON

If this goes on we shall be all mentally deficient.

Mr. McKENNA

I do not think I need say more than that I shall stand by this Clause.

Question put, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."

The House divided: Ayes, 186; Noes, 26.

Division No. 228.] AYES. [1.50 a.m.
Abraham, William (Dublin, Harbour) Brace, William Crumley, Patrick
Acland, Francis Dyke Brady, Patrick Joseph Cullinan, John
Adamson, William Bridgeman, William Clive Davies, Ellis William (Eifion)
Allen, Arthur A. (Dumbartonshire) Brunner, John F. L. Davies, Timothy (Lincs., Louth)
Allen, Rt. Hon. Charles P. (Stroud) Bryce, John Annan Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.)
Arnold, Sydney Burn, Colonel C. R. Delany, William
Baker, Joseph Allen (Finsbury, E.) Burns, Rt. Hon. John Denman, Hon. Richard Douglas
Barnes, George N. Carr-Gomm, H. W. Devlin, Joseph
Barran, Rowland Hurst (Leeds, N.) Cawley, Harold T. (Lancs., Heywood) Dickinson, W. H.
Barton, William Chancellor, Henry George Donelan, Captain A.
Beauchamp, Sir Edward Chapple, Dr. William Allen Doris, William
Beck, Arthur Cecil Clancy, John Joseph Duffy, William J.
Bennett-Goldney, Francis Clough, William Duncan, J. Hastings (Yorks, Otley)
Bentham, G. J. Clynes, John R. Edwards, John Hugh (Glamorgan, Mid)
Bigland, Alfred Condon, Thomas Joseph Esmonde, Dr. John (Tipperary, N.)
Boland, John Pius Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. Esmonde, Sir Thomas (Wexford, N.)
Bowerman, Charles W. Cotton, William Francis Ferens, Rt. Hon. Thomas Robinson
Boyle, Daniel (Mayo, North) Craig, Ernest (Cheshire, Crewe) Ffrench, Peter
Field, William Lyell, Charles Henry Phillips, John (Longford, S.)
Fiennes, Hon. Eustace Edward Lynch, A. A. Pointer, Joseph
Fitzgibbon, John Lyttelton, Hon. J. C. (Droitwich) Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H.
Flavin, Michael Joseph Macdonald, J. Ramsay (Leicester) Reddy, Michael
France, Gerald Ashburner Maclean, Donald Redmond, John E. (Waterford)
Gibbs, G. A. Macnamara, Rt. Hon. Dr. T. J. Redmond, William (Clare, E.)
Gilmour, Captain John Macpherson, James Ian Redmond, William Archer (Tyrone, E.)
Gladstone, W. G. C. MacVeagh, Jeremiah Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)
Goldstone, Frank McGhee, Richard Roberts, George H. (Norwich)
Griffith, Ellis Jones McKenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside)
Guest, Hon. Frederick E. (Dorset, E.) M'Laren, Hon. F.W.S. (Lincs.,Spalding) Robinson, Sidney
Gulland, John William Manfield, Harry Roch, Walter F. (Pembroke)
Gwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway) Markham, Sir Arthur Basil Rowlands, James
Hackett, John Marks, Sir George Croydon Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees)
Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose) Marshall, Arthur Harold Sanders, Robert Arthur
Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, West) Meagher, Michael Sanderson, Lancelot
Hayden, John Patrick Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.) Scanlan, Thomas
Hazleton, Richard Meehan, Patrick J. (Queers Co., Leix) Seely, Rt. Hon. Colonel J. E. B.
Helme, Sir Norval Watson Middlebrook, William Sheehy, David
Henderson, Arthur (Durham) Millar, James Duncan Shortt, Edward
Henry, Sir Charles Molloy, Michael Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.)
Higham, John Sharp Montagu, Hon. E. S. Stanley, Albert (Staffs, N.W.)
Hobhouse, Rt. Hon. Charles E. H. Mooney, John J. Stewart, Gershom
Hogge, James Myles Morrell, Philip Strauss, Edward A. (Southwark, West)
Hope, Harry (Bute) Muldoon, John Sutherland, John E.
Horner, Andrew Long Munro, Robert Sutton, John E.
Hughes, Spencer Leigh Murphy, Martin J. Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)
Illingworth, Percy H. Murray, Captain Hon. Arthur C. Taylor, Thomas (Bolton)
John, Edward Thomas Needham, Christopher T. Tennant, Harold John
Jones, H. Haydn (Merioneth) Nolan, Joseph Trevelyan, Charles Philips
Jones, J. Towyn (Carmarthen, East) O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) Ure, Rt. Hon. Alexander
Jones, Leif Stratten (Notts, Rushcliffe) O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.) Webb, H.
Jones, William (Carnarvonshire) O'Doherty, Philip White, J. Dundas (Glasgow, Tradeston)
Joyce, Michael O'Donnell, Thomas White, Sir Luke (Yorks, E.R.)
Keating, Matthew O'Dowd, John White, Patrick (Meath, North)
Kelly, Edward O'Grady, James Whyte, A. F. (Perth)
Kilbride, Denis O'Malley, William Wiles, Thomas
King, J. O'Neill, Hon. A. E. B. (Antrim, Mid) Williamson, Sir Archibald
Lambert, Rt. Hon. G. (Devon,S.Molton) O'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, S.) Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)
Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade) O'Shaughnessy, P. J. Wing, Thomas Edward
Lardner, James C. R. O'Shee, James John
Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, West) O'Sullivan, Timothy
Leach, Charles Palmer, Godfrey Mark TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr. Wedgwood Benn and Mr. Geoffrey Howard.
Levy, Sir Maurice Parker, James (Halifax)
Lewis, Rt. Hon. John Herbert Parry, Thomas H.
Lundon, Thomas Pease, Herbert (Darlington)
NOES.
Baird, J. L. Eyres-Monsell, Bolton M. M'Neill, Ronald (Kent, St. Augustine's)
Baker, Sir Randolf L. (Dorset, N.) Falle, Bertram Godfray Parkes, Ebenezer
Barnston, Harry Glazebrook, Captain Philip K. Pryce-Jones, Colonel E.
Beach, Hon. Michael Hugh Hicks Grant, J. A. Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel
Booth, Frederick Handel Greene, W. R. Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)
Chaloner, Colonel R. G. W. Gretton, John White, Major G. D. (Lancs., Southport)
Clay, Captain H. H. Spender Guinness, Hon.W.E. (Bury S.Edmunds) Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset, W.)
Coates, Major Sir Edward Feetham Henderson, Major H. (Berks, Abingdon)
Dalrymple, Viscount Kerr-Smiley, Peter Kerr TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr. Wedgwood and Mr. Goldsmith.
Denison-Pender, J. C. Lewisham, Viscount

Mr. McKENNA rose in his place, and claimed to move, "That the Question, 'That the words of the Bill to the word "special" [paragraph (6), in Clause 40], stand part of the Bill,' be now put."

Question put, "That the Question 'That

the words of the Bill [Clauses 32 to 39] to the word "special" [in paragraph (6), Clause 40], stand part of the Bill,' be now put."

The House divided: Ayes, 166; Noes, 42.

Division No. 229.] AYES. [2.0 a.m.
Abraham, William (Dublin, Harbour) Beck, Arthur Cecil Cawley, Harold T. (Lancs., Heywood)
Acland, Francis Dyke Bentham, G. J. Chancellor, Henry George
Adamson, William Boland, John Pius Chapple, Dr. William Allen
Allen, Arthur A. (Dumbartonshire) Bowerman, Charles W. Clancy, John Joseph
Allen, Rt. Hon. Charles P. (Stroud) Boyle, Daniel (Mayo, North) Clough, William
Arnold, Sydney Brace, William Condon, Thomas Joseph
Baker, Joseph Allen (Finsbury, E.) Brady, Patrick Joseph Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.
Barnes, George N. Brunner, John F. L. Cotton, William Francis
Barran, Rowland Hurst (Leeds, N.) Bryce, J. Annan Crumley, Patrick
Barton, William Burns, Rt. Hon. John Cullinan, John
Beauchamp, Sir Edward Carr-Gomm, H. W. Davies, Ellis William (Eifion)
Davies, Timothy (Lincs., Louth) King, Joseph O'Shee, James John
Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.) Lambert, Rt. Hon. G. (Devon, S. Molton) O'Sullivan, Timothy
Delany, William Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade) Palmer, Godfrey Mark
Denman, Hon. Richard Douglas Lardner, James C. R. Parker, James (Halifax)
Dickinson, W. H. Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, West) Parry, Thomas H.
Donelan, Captain A. Leach, Charles Phillips, John (Longford, S.)
Doris, William Levy, Sir Maurice Pointer, Joseph
Duffy, William J. Lewis, Rt. Hon. John Herbert Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H.
Duncan, J. Hastings (Yorks, Otley) Lundon, Thomas Pryce-Jones, Colonel E.
Edwards, John Hugh (Glamorgan, Mid) Lyell, Charles Henry Reddy, Michael
Esmonde, Dr. John (Tipperary, N.) Lynch, A. A. Redmond, John E. (Waterford)
Esmonde, Sir Thomas (Wexford, N.) Lyttelton, Hon J. C. (Droitwich) Redmond, William (Clare, E.)
Ferens, Rt. Hon. Thomas Robinson Macdonald, J. Ramsay (Leicester) Redmond, William Archer (Tyrone, E.)
Ffrench, Peter Maclean, Donald Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)
Field, William Macnamara, Rt. Hon. Dr. T. J. Roberts, George H. (Norwich)
Fiennes, Hon. Eustace Edward Macpherson, James Ian Robertson, John M. (Tyneside)
Fitzgibbon, John MacVeagh, Jeremiah Robinson, Sidney
Flavin, Michael Joseph McGhee, Richard Roch, Walter F. (Pembroke)
France, Gerald Ashburner McKenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald Rowlands, James
Gladstone, W. G. C. M'Laren, Hon. F.W.S. (Lincs, Spalding) Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees)
Goldstone, Frank Manfield, Harry Seely, Rt. Hon. Colonel J. E. B.
Griffith, Ellis Jones Markham, Sir Arthur Basil Sheehy, David
Guest, Hon. Frederick E. (Dorset, E.) Marks, Sir George Croydon Shortt, Edward
Gulland, John William Marshall, Arthur Harold Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.)
Gwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway) Meagher, Michael Stanley, Albert (Staffs, N.W.)
Hackett, John Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.) Strauss, Edward A. (Southwark, West)
Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose) Meehan, Patrick J. (Queen's Co., Leix) Sutherland, John E.
Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, West) Middlebrook, William Sutton, John E.
Hayden, John Patrick Millar, James Duncan Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)
Hazleton, Richard Molloy, Michael Taylor, Thomas (Bolton)
Helme, Sir Norval Watson Montagu, Hon. E. S. Tennant, Harold John
Henderson, Arthur (Durham) Morrell, Philip Trevelyan, Charles Philips
Henry, Sir Charles Muldoon, John Ure, Rt. Hon. Alexander
Higham, John Sharp Munro, Robert Webb, H.
Hobhouse, Rt. Hon. Charles E. H. Murray, Captain Hon. Arthur C. White, J. Dundas (Glasgow, Tradeston)
Hughes, Spencer Leigh Needham, Christopher T. White, Sir Luke (Yorks, E.R.)
Illingworth, Percy H. Nolan, Joseph White, Patrick (Meath, North)
John, Edward Thomas O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) Wiles, Thomas
Jones, H. Haydn (Merioneth) O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.) Williamson, Sir Archibald
Jones, J. Towyn (Carmarthen, East) O'Doherty, Philip Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)
Jones, Leif Stratten (Notts, Rushcliffe) O'Donnell, Thomas Wing, Thomas Edward
Jones, William (Carnarvonshire) O'Dowd, John
Joyce, Michael O'Malley, William TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr. Wedgwood Benn and Mr. Geoffrey Howard.
Keating, Matthew O'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, S.)
Kelly, Edward O'Shaughnessy, P. J.
Kilbride, Denis
NOES.
Baird, John Lawrence Falle, Bertram Godfray M'Neill, Ronald (Kent, St. Augustine's)
Baker, Sir Randolf L. (Dorset, N.) Gibbs, G. A. O'Neill, Hon. A. E. B. (Antrim, Mid)
Barnston, Harry Gilmour, Captain John Parkes, Ebenezer
Bennett-Goldney, Francis Glazebrook, Captain Philip K. Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington)
Bigland, Alfred Goldsmith, Frank Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel
Booth, Frederick Handel Grant, J. A. Sanders, Robert Arthur
Bridgeman, William Clive Greene, W. R. Sanderson, Lancelot
Burn, Colonel C. R. Gretton, John Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)
Chaloner, Colonel R. G. W. Guinness, Hon.W. E. (Bury S. Edmunds) Stewart, Gershom
Clay, Captain H. H. Spender Henderson, Major H. (Berks., Abingdon) White, Major G. D. (Lancs., Southport)
Coates, Major Sir Edward Feetham Hogge, James Myles Whyte, A. F. (Perth)
Craig, Ernest (Cheshire, Crewe) Hope, Harry (Bute) Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset, W.)
Dalrymple, Viscount Horner, Andrew Long
Denison-Pender, J. C. Kerr-Smiley, Peter Kerr TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Sir Samuel Scott and Mr. Rawlinson.
Eyres-Monsell, Bolton M. Lewisham, Viscount

Question put accordingly. "That those words stand part of the Bill."

The House divided: Ayes, 191; Noes, 19.

Division No. 230.] AYES. [2.7 a.m.
Abraham, William (Dublin, Harbour) Beauchamp, Sir Edward Burn, Colonel C. R.
Acland, Francis Dyke Beck, Arthur Cecil Burns, Rt. Hon. John
Adamson, William Bennett-Goldney, Francis Carr-Gomm, H. W.
Allen, Arthur A. (Dumbartonshire) Bentham, G. J. Cawley, H. T. (Lancs., Heywood)
Allen, Rt. Hon. Charles P. (Stroud) Bigland, Alfred Chancellor, Henry George
Arnold, Sydney Boland, John Pius Chapple, Dr. William Allen
Baird, John Lawrence Bowerman, C. W. Clancy John Joseph
Baker, Joseph Allen (Finsbury, E.) Boyle, Daniel (Mayo, North) Clough, William
Baker Sir Randolf L. (Dorset, N.) Brace, William Clynes, John R.
Barnes, George N. Brady, P. J. Condon, Thomas Joseph
Barnston, Harry Bridgeman, W. Clive Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.
Barran, Rowland Hurst (Leeds, N.) Brunner, John F. L. Cotton, William Francis
Barton, William Bryce, J. Annan Craig, Ernest (Cheshire, Crewe)
Crumley, Patrick Jones, William (Carnarvonshire) O'Shaughnessy, P. J.
Cullinan, J. Joyce, Michael O'Shee, James John
Davies, Ellis William (Eifion) Keating, Matthew O'Sullivan, Timothy
Davies, Timothy (Lincs., Louth) Kelly, Edward Palmer, Godfrey Mark
Davics, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.) Kerr-Smiley, Peter Kerr Parker, James (Halifax)
Delany, William Kilbride, Denis Parry, Thomas H.
Denman, Hon. Richard Douglas King, J. Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington)
Devlin, Joseph Lambert. Rt. Hon G. (Devon,S.Molton) Phillips, John (Longford, S.)
Dickinson, W. H. Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade) Pointer, Joseph
Donelan, Captain A. Lardner, James C. R. Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H.
Doris, William Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, West) Reddy, Michael
Dully, William J. Leach, Charles Redmond, John E. (Waterford)
Duncan, J. Hastings (Yorks, Otley) Levy, Sir Maurice Redmond, William (Clare, E.)
Edwards, John Hugh (Glamorgan, Mid) Lewis, Rt. Hon. John Herbert Redmond, William Archer (Tyrone, E.)
Esmonde, Dr. John (Tipperary, N.) Lundon, Thomas Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)
Esmonde, Sir Thomas (Wexford, N.) Lyell, Charles Henry Roberts, George H. (Norwich)
Eyres-Monsell, Bolton M. Lynch, Arthur Alfred Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside)
Ferens, Rt. Hon. Thomas Robinson Lyttelton, Hon. J. C. (Droitwich) Robinson, Sidney
Ffrench, Peter Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester) Roch, Walter F. (Pembroke)
Field, William Maclean, Donald Rowlands, James
Fiennes, Hon. Eustace Edward Macnamara, Rt. Hon. Dr. T. J. Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees)
Fitzgibbon, John Macpherson, James Ian Sanders, Robert Arthur
Flavin, Michael Joseph MacVeagh, Jeremiah Sanderson, Lancelot
France, Gerald Ashburner McGhee, Richard Scanlan, Thomas
Gibbs, George Abraham McKenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald Seely, Rt. Hon. Colonel J. E. B.
Gilmour, Captain John M'Laren, Hon. F.W.S. (Lincs.,Spalding) Sheehy, David
Gladstone, W. G. C. M'Neill, Ronald (Kent St. Augustine's) Shortt, Edward
Glazebrook, Captain Philip K. Manfield, Harry Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.)
Goldstone, Frank Markham, Sir Arthur Basil Stanley, Albert (Staffs, N.W.)
Griffith, Ellis Jones Marks, Sir George Croydon Stewart, Gershom
Guest, Hon. Frederick E. (Dorset, E.) Marshall, Arthur Harold Strauss, Edward A. (Southwark, West)
Gulland, John William Meagher, Michael Sutherland, John E.
Gwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway) Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.) Sutton, John E.
Hackett, John Meehan, Patrick J. (Queen's Co., Leix) Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)
Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose) Middlebrook, William Taylor, Thomas (Bolton)
Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, West) Millar, James Duncan Tennant, Harold John
Hayden, John Patrick Molloy, Michael Trevelyan, Charles Ph[...]
Hazleton, Richard Montagu, Hon. E. S. Ure, Rt. Hon. Alexander
Helme, Sir Norval Watson Morrell, Philip Webb, H.
Henderson, Arthur (Durham) Muldoon, John White, J. Dundas (Glasgow, Tradeston)
Henderson, Major H. (Berks, Abingdon) Munro, Robert White, Sir Luke (Yorks, E.R.)
Henry, Sir Charles Murray, Captain Hon. Arthur C. White, Patrick (Meath, North)
Higham, John Sharp Needham, Christopher T. Whyte, A. F.
Hobhouse, Rt. Hon. Charles E. H. Nolan, Joseph Wiles, Thomas
Hogge, James Myles O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset, W.)
Horner, Andrew Long O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.) Williamson, Sir Archibald
Hughes, Spencer Leigh O'Doherty, Philip Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)
Illingworth, Percy H. O'Donnell, Thomas Wing, Thomas Edward
John, Edward Thomas O'Dowd, John
Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) O'Malley, William TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr. Wedgwood Benn and Mr. Geoffrey Howard.
Jones, J. Towyn (Carmarthen, East) O'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, S.)
Jones, Leil Stratten (Notts, Rushcliffe) O'Neill, Hon. A. E. B. (Antrim, Mid)
NOES.
Beach, Hon. Michael High Hicks Goldsmith, Frank Parkes, Ebenezer
Booth, Frederick Handel Grant, J. A. Pryce-Jones, Colonel Edward
Chaloner, Colonel R. G. W. Greene, Walter Raymond Wedgwood, Josiah C.
Clay, Captain H. H. Spender Gretton, John White, Major G. D. (Lancs., Southport)
Coates, Major Sir Edward Feetham Guinness, Hon.W.E. (Bury S.Edmunds)
Dalrymple, Viscount Hope, Harry (Bute) TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Sir
Denison-Pender, J. C. Lewisham, Viscount Samuel Scott and Mr. Rawlinson
Falle, Bertram Godfray