§ (1) Where an order that a defective be sent to an institution or be placed under guardianship has been made under this Act, the judicial authority which made the order or any other judicial authority, or, where the order is not made by a judicial authority, any judicial authority, may, on the application of the petitioner, or of the managers of the institution or the guardian, as the case may be, or of an officer authorised by the local authority, make an order requiring the defective, or any person liable to maintain him, to contribute such sum towards the expenses of his maintenance in the institution or of his guardianship, or, in the event of his death in the institution of his funeral expenses and any charges incidental thereto, including the cost of conveyance to the institution, as, having regard to the ability of the defective or person liable to maintain him, seems reasonable.
§ (2) Any such order may, on the application of the managers of the institution in which the defective is for the time being detained, or of the guardian, or of an officer authorised by the local authority be enforced against any property of the defective or person liable to maintain him, if made by a judge of county courts, in the same way as if it were a judgment of the county court, and, if made by any other judicial authority, as if it were an order for the payment of a civil debt made by a court of summary jurisdiction.
§ (3) An order made under this section may be varied or revoked by the judicial 242 authority which made it or any other judicial authority.
§ (4) Where a defective has been placed by his parent or guardian in an institution or under guardianship any sum which the parent or guardian has agreed to contribute towards the expenses of the maintenance or guardianship of the defective shall be recoverable summarily as a civil, debt.
§ Mr. WEDGWOODI beg to move to> leave out the Clause.
This Clause gives power to all these local authorities to recover the expenses of looking after these mentally defective persons by parents or guardians. It is rather undesirable that you should not only take people's children away and keep them against the parents' wishes very often, but that you should charge them with the expense. It is rather adding insult to injury. Education is free in this country, and this matter of looking after these mentally defectives is a form of education, and it does seem to me undesirable that you should make it a charge upon the parents and guardians and should be able to enforce the charge by a court of summary jurisdiction. Of course, in most of the cases no charge would be made at all, and no proceedings could be taken and no proceedings would be likely to result in money being obtained; but that makes it all the more undesirable that you should give to the local authorities the power to collect this money in certain cases. It gives opportunities for favouritism and penalising particular persons. We have seen over and over again the great danger of making heavy claims upon the brothers and sisters of children who are under the charge of guardians and in the workhouse. Many of these claims fall very heavily indeed on young workers under twenty-one years of age, and I think it is very undesirable that you add to the unpopularity of this Bill by making it an engine of distortion very similar to the-claims made in support of parents in workhouses.
Hon. Members know perfectly well the bitter feeling often entertained among the working classes towards their parents when they have to go to the workhouse and an order is made against the children to provide for their maintenance. It is one of the principal sources of bitterness in families. Here you are introducing into this Bill for looking after mentally defective persons, the same sort of discord and the same opportunities for the 243 local authority to make a charge of sixpence a week here, and a shilling a week there, and sustain a large expense in collecting money. I believe it is done in the case of the Poor Law so as to make people feel the responsibility of poor relatives, but surely it is not necessary here to make people responsible for sixpence or a shilling a week when we all know how difficult it is to make both ends meet. I certainly do think this Clause, which is new since last time, is most undesirable in the Bill, and if I can get anyone to support me, I shall go into the Lobby against it.
§ Mr. ELLIS GRIFFITHOf course, the meaning of this Clause is that if the defective or those liable to maintain him have the ability to maintain him they ought to do so. That seems a reasonable proposition. My hon. Friend has spoken of this Bill as if directed against the poor, and now he says it is directed against people who are not absolutely poor. Why should not the defective, and why should not those who are liable to maintain the defective not contribute towards the expense? The Royal Commission inquired into the matter very carefully, and this is
§ one of their recommendations. It is part of the financial scheme of this Bill, and the local authority and the Treasury look for these contributions.
§ Mr. WEDGWOODBecause the Royal Commission decided to get all the money they could out of the poor, that does not make it any juster. [HON MEMBERS: "The rich."] This does not apply to the rich. You are going to get all you can out of the poor, and the point is that when you take away children compulsorily this claim becomes not a contribution from the parents, but a tax upon them. I do not think you have any right in the first place to take the children away compulsorily and keep them compulsorily in segregation, but if you do that, you have no right to make parents pay for it. Certainly if any hon. Member will vote with me I shall go into the Lobby against this-Clause.
§ Question put, That the words, "(1) Where an order that a defective be sent to an institution or be placed under guardianship has been made under this Act, the judicial authority which made the order, or" stand part of the Bill.
§ The House divided: Ayes, 164; Noes, 4.
245| Division No. 221.] | AYES. | [2.50 a.m. |
| Abraham, William (Dublin, Harbour) | Doris, William | Jessel, Captain H. M. |
| Acland, Francis Dyke | Duffy, William J. | John, Edward Thomas |
| Adamson, William | Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness) | Jones, H. Haydn (Merioneth) |
| Allen, Arthur A. (Dumbartonshire) | Duncan, J. Hastings (Yorks, Otley) | Jones, J. Towyn (Carmarthen, East) |
| Allen, Rt. Hon. Charles P. (Stroud) | Edwards, Clement (Glamorgan, E.) | Jones, Leif Stratten (Notts, Rust[...]e) |
| Arnold, Sydney | Edwards, Sir Francis (Radnor) | Joyce, Michael |
| Baird, J. L. | Elverston, Sir Harold | Keating, Matthew |
| Barnston, Harry | Esmonde, Sir Thomas (Wexford. N.) | Kelly, Edward |
| Barton, William | Essex, Sir Richard Walter | King, Joseph |
| Beauchamp, Sir Edward | Ferens, Rt. Hon. Thomas Robinson | Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade) |
| Beck, Arthur Cecil | Ffrench, Peter | Lardner, James C. R. |
| Benn, W. W. (Tower Hamlets, St. Geo.) | Field, William | Levy, Sir Maurice |
| Bennett-Goldney, Francis | Fiennes, Hon. Eustace Edward | Lewis, Rt. Hon. John Herbert |
| Boland, John Pius | Fitzgibbon, John | Lundon, Thomas |
| Booth, Frederick Handel | Flavin, Michael Joseph | Lynch, A. A. |
| Bowerman, Charles W. | Gibbs, G. A. | Macdonald. J. Ramsay (Leicester) |
| Boyle, Daniel (Mayo, North) | Gilmour, Captain John | McGhee, Richard |
| Brace, William | Gladstone, W. G. C. | Macpherson, James Ian |
| Brady, Patrick Joseph | Goldsmith, Frank | MacVeagh, Jeremiah |
| Bridgeman, William Clive | Goldstone, Frank | McKenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald |
| Brunner, John F. L. | Greene, W. R. | M'Laren, Hon. F.W.S. (Lincs, Spalding) |
| Bryce. J. Annan | Griffith, Ellis Jones | Marks, Sir George Croydon |
| Burn, Colonel C. R. | Guest, Hon. Frederick E. (Dorset, E.) | Meagher, Michael |
| Burns, Rt. Hon. John | Gulland, John William | Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.) |
| Cawley, H. T. (Lancs., Heywood) | Gwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway) | Meehan, Patrick J. (Queen's Co., Leix) |
| Chancellor, Henry George | Hackett, John | Millar, James Duncan |
| Chappie, Dr. William Allen | Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose) | Molloy, Michael |
| Clancy, John Joseph | Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, West) | Morgan, George Hay |
| Clough, William | Hayden, John Patrick | Morrell, Philip |
| Clynes, John R. | Hazleton, Richard | Morison-Bell, Major A. C. (Honiton) |
| Crumley, Patrick | Henderson, Major H. (Berks, Abingdon) | Muldoon, John |
| Cullinan, John | Higham, John Sharp | Munro, Robert |
| Davies, David (Montgomery Co.) | Hobhouse, Rt. Hon. Charles E. H. | Murray, Captain Hon. Arthur C. |
| Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.) | Hogge, James Myles | Nolan, Joseph |
| Dawes, James Arthur | Hope, Major J. A. (Midlothian) | O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) |
| Delany, William | Horner, Andrew Long | O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.) |
| Denison-Pender, J. C. | Howard, Hon. Geoffrey | O'Doherty, Philip |
| Dickinson, W. H. | Hughes, Spencer Leigh | O'Dowd, John |
| Dickson, Rt. Hon. C. Scott | Illingworth, Percy H. | O'Malley, William |
| O'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, S.) | Roch, Walter F. (Pembroke) | Tennant, Harold John |
| O'Shee, James John | Rowlands, James | Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton) |
| Parker, James (Halifax) | Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees) | Ure, Rt. Hon. Alexander |
| Parry, Thomas H. | Samuel, Samuel (Wandsworth) | Verney, Sir Harry |
| Peto, Basil Edward | Sanders, Robert Arthur | Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney) |
| Phillips, John (Longford, S.) | Scott, A. MacCallum (Glas., Bridgeton) | White, J. Dundas (Glasgow, Tradeston) |
| Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central) | Seely, Col. Rt. Hon. J. E. B. | White, Sir Luke (Yorks, E.R.) |
| Pryce-Jones, Colonel E. | Sheehy, David | White, Patrick (Meath, North) |
| Reddy, Michael | Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.) | Wiles, Thomas |
| Redmond, John E. (Waterford) | Stanley, Albert (Staffs, N.W.) | Williams, John (Glamorgan) |
| Redmond, William (Clare, E.) | Stanley, Hon. G. F. (Preston) | Williamson, Sir Archibald |
| Redmond, William Archer (Tyrone, E.) | Stewart, Gershom | Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton) |
| Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln) | Strauss, Edward A. (Southwark, West) | Wing, Thomas Edward |
| Roberts, George H. (Norwich) | Sutherland, John E. | |
| Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside) | Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe) | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— Mr. William Jones and Mr. Webb. |
| Robinson, Sidney | Taylor, Thomas (Bolton) | |
| NOES. | ||
| Dalrymple, Viscount | Locker-Lampson, O. (Ramsey) | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr. Wedgwood and Mr. Martin. |
| Hodge, John | Whyte, A. F. (Perth) |
§ Mr. WEDGWOODI beg to move to leave out the words "any other judicial authority, or" ["which made the order or any other judicial authority, or"]. I object to any other judicial authority making the order for a contribution than the original judicial authority which made the order that a defective person should go to a home. I hope the Government will accept the Amendment.
§ Mr. MARTINI beg to second the Amendment.
§ Mr. ELLIS GRIFFITHI hope my hon. Friend will not press the Amendment. May I point out to him that the judicial authority which made the order was concerned with defectives, but this authority which is going to make the order for a contribution is concerned with the financial means of the defectives. Those are entirely different matters, and I think my hon. Friend will see that the one has no relation to the other in any way whatever. The judicial authority which made the original order might actually be dead or absent from the country when the time came to have an order made for a contribution towards the expenses of maintenance, and in such case great difficulty would be caused. Therefore I think we should do well to leave the wording of the Clause as it now stands.
§ Amendment put, and negatived.
§ Mr. WEDGWOODI beg to move to leave out the words "or any person liable to maintain him" ["make an order requiring the defective, or any person liable to maintain him"], and to insert instead thereof the words, "or his male parent."
As the House will see the object of this is to limit the responsibility to the male parent, I think it would be very unfair 246 if the authorities were able to come down on the mother of an illegitimate child and make her pay 6s. a week for the maintenance of her defective child. Surely it would be sufficient if the local authority were able to get money out of the male parent of a defective without coming down on other members of the family.
3.0 A.M.
So, I move to omit these words, and I shall go to a Division on them if I can get anybody to support me. I do not believe that Members of this House in the least desire to make the mother of an illegitimate child, or the struggling brothers and sisters of people such as these, liable to maintain their relations in these homes, but that is what will be done, unless you vote against an Amendment such as this. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] It seems to me that, at three o'clock in the morning, hon. Members cannot pay any attention to Amendments that are moved. [HON. MEMBERS: "Order, Order."] I am perfectly in order, and when I raised this Question I was jeered at by the Irish hon. Members. I am putting a perfectly honest and straightforward point before the House, and because the Irish Members are here to vote down any opponents of the Liberal Government, if they—. [HON. MEMBERS: Order."] Now, as I have been interrupted, let me put this before the House with perfect clearness. If this Clause goes through, as it is, then any relation of these poor people will be liable to be summoned by any judicial authority, exactly as though their relations were in the workhouse. We know perfectly well that this habit of suing impecunious relations of people in the workhouse for maintenance is a very bad thing indeed, and which we want to put a stop to, when those relations are genuinely impecunious, and not parents of these persons. I believe if the—
§ Mr. McKENNAI beg to move, "That the Question be now put 'That the remainder of the Clause (13) stand part of the Bill.'"