Commons Sitting of 26 November 1912

Preamble
The House met at a Quarter before Three of the clock, Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.

ESTABLISHED CHURCH (WALES) BILL.
Petitions were presented praying the House not to pass into law the Established Church (Wales) Bill by—
Mr. A. Strauss, (7 petitions) from Paddington bearing 2,432 signatures.
Mr. Parkes, (10 petitions) from the Central Division of Birmingham bearing 1,776 signatures.
Lord Henry Cavendish-Bentinck, (40 petitions), 15 from Nottingham bearing 4,057 signatures and 25 from the Rushcliffe Division bearing 9,543 signatures.
Mr. Dixon, (19 petitions) 3 from Boston bearing 558 signatures, 14 from the Spalding Division of Lines, bearing 1,427 signatures, and 2 from Grantham bearing 2,725 signatures.
Mr. R. Guinness, (39 petitions) from the South-Eastern Division of Essex bearing 5,821 signatures.
Viscount Helmsley, (71 petitions) from the Thirsk and Malton Division of Yorkshire bearing 10,370 signatures.
Mr Courthope, (31 petitions) from the Rye Division of Sussex bearing 6,780 signatures.
Captain Clive, (52 petitions) from the Ross Division of Herefordshire bearing 7,983 signatures.
Mr. Harold Smith, (30 petitions) 10 from Warrington, 12 from the Leigh Division of Lancashire, and 8 from the Walton Division of Liverpool bearing 17,000 signatures.
Mr. Mark Sykes, (83 petitions) 28 from South Leeds, 35 from the Osgoldcross Division of Yorkshire, and 20 from the East, West, and Central Divisions of Hull bearing 24,956 signatures.

HISTORICAL MANUSCRIPTS (ROYAL COMMISSION).
Copy presented of the Report on the Manuscripts of Alan George Finch, Esquire, of Burley-on-the-Hill, Rutlandshire. Volume I. [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
EAST INDIA (EXECUTIVE AND LEGIS LATIVE COUNCILS).
Copy presented of Amended Regulations for the Legislative Councils of Madras, Bombay, the United Provinces, and the Punjab [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.
COLONIAL REPORTS (ANNUAL).
Copy presented of Colonial Report, No. 742 (Grenada, Annual Report for 1911) [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS.

  Columbia (Mr. H. S.' Hughes).
  Mr. KINGasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs when Mr. H. S. Hughes will be placed on his trial by the Columbian Government; and whether the British Consul has been instructed to report immediately any development of this case?
  The SECRETARY of STATE for FOREIGN AFFAIRS (Sir E. Grey): I have no information as to the date of the trial. His Majesty's Minister at Bogota has full instructions, and will telegraph any further development of the case. I shall then be prepared to make a further statement on the matter.
  Mr. KING: Will the right hon. Gentleman say how long ago it is since the offence arose with which Mr. Hughes was charged?
  Sir E. GREY: I cannot say that without notice.

  British Companies (Native Labour).
  Sir CLEMENT HILLasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he has received any information suggesting that abuses have arisen out of the employment of aborigines under the

  981
  control of British companies in other districts than those under the management of the Peruvian Amazon Company; and, if so, what steps are being taken?
  Sir E. GREY: I have not before me at the present time charges against British companies other than the Peruvian Amazon Company that have not been satisfactorily disposed of, but if the hon. Member would inform me what particular districts and companies he has in his mind, I will endeavour to give a more precise answer. It is a somewhat arduous undertaking to search all the correspondence relating to British companies in all parts of the world for the last seven years.
  Sir CLEMENT HILLasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he has received any information suggesting that abuses have arisen out of the employment of aborigines under the control of British companies in other districts than those under the management of the Peruvian Amazon Company; and, if so, what steps are being taken?
  The SECRETARY of STATE for the COLONIES (Mr. Harcourt): Occasional complaints are received from coloured and other persons employed in foreign territory, but I have no reason whatever to suppose that any state of affairs corresponding to that revealed by Sir Roger Casement's report exists in the case of any British company employing labour from British Colonies and Protectorates in foreign territory.
  Mr. NEEDHAMasked whether the Prime Minister of Persia has recently invited back to that country Saad-ed-Dowleh; and whether, in doing so, he acted on the advice of the British Minister at Teheran?
  Sir E. GREY: The answer to the first question is in the affirmative, and the step was taken with the encouragement of the British Minister. I had reason to believe that Saad-ed-Dowleh's return might be of use in the present crisis and had instructed the British Minister accordingly. I gather that there is a tendency on the part of some people—I do not mean on the part of my hon. Friend—to confuse Saad-ed-Dowleh with Salar-ed-Dowleh or even with Shuja-ed-Dowleh. He is not the same person as either of these two nor, so far as I am aware, has he any connection with them, and I hope some attempt will be made to keep the names distinct.

  Coinage of Rupees (India).
  Mr. DOUGLAS HALLasked the Under-Secretary of State for India the number of Indian rupees that have been coined during the last five years; the amount of profit accruing to the Indian Government ox the Imperial Government by such coinage; and the use to which the profit is put?
  The FINANCIAL SECRETARY to the WAR OFFICE (Mr. Harold Baker): In the five years ending 31st October, 1912, about 668 lakhs of rupees were coined. The profits were about 201 lakhs, which were added to the Gold Standard Reserve, except that about 35 lakhs were used for capital expenditure on railways, in accordance with a recommendation of the Railway Finance Committee of 1907–8.

  Army Service in India (Examinations in Persian).
  Colonel YATEasked whether officers of the Indian Army and officers of the Royal Engineers serving with Indian units in India are debarred from getting any rewards for passing the lower standard and higher standard examinations in Persian, and that officers of British regiments serving in India are eligible for these rewards; and, if so, what is the reason for this distinction having been made between the Indian Service and the British Service in India?
  Mr. BAKER: The effect of certain recent Amendments to India Army Regulations would appear to be as stated in the question. The reason for this differentiation between the two Services is not known to the Secretary of State. An inquiry has been addressed to the Government of India on the subject.

  Mysore (Claim of M. Vencata Row).
  Mr. MUNROasked the Under-Secretary of State for India whether his attention has been called to a money claim made by M. Vencata Row, as sole executor of one Subadra Boyi, against the Government of Mysore; whether a tribunal in Mysore rejected the claim solely on the ground that the will under which Subadra Boyi derived title was not proved because probate had been granted, not on the will itself, but on a copy of it; whether M. Vencata Row, while maintaining that the tribunal exceeded its jurisdiction in decideing that matter, searched for and obtained the original will referred to, and begged leave to produce it before the tribunal,

  983
  but that this request was refused; and whether, as the only ground on which an adverse decision was based has now been displaced, he will take steps to reopen the case and secure that a claim which is admittedly well-founded in fact and law shall be admitted?
  Mr. BAKER: A Regulation of the Mysore Legislature constituted a Special Court in 1896 to try and determine and pass final judgment as to the person or persons, if any, entitled to the moneys in question, and directed the Government of Mysore to carry out the final judgment of the Court. The Court was not satisfied that such a will had ever been executed, or that if executed it had been lost and could not be found, or that a copy of the will produced was a correct copy of the original will. When the document which was alleged to be the original will, but which has never been proved to be such, was found, the Court had already been dissolved, and no power remained to reconstitute it. Such being the case, successive Secretaries of State, after repeated examination of all the circumstances, have considered it impossible to press the Mysore Government to reopen the case, and my Noble Friend regrets that he must adhere to this decision.
  Mr. MacCALLUM SCOTT: Is the Indian Government of opinion that this man has a really substantial grievance?
  Mr. BAKER: It may be so, but it is not certain, and unfortunately the case cannot be reopened.

  Purchases of Silver (India).
  Mr. RUPERT GWYNNEasked if the suggestion of Messrs. Samuel Montagu and Company, contained in their letter to the India Office of 16th April, that their first purchases of silver for the Government should be postponed for two months at the market rates, estimated at ⅛d., equal to a shade under 3 per cent., entailed a further brokerage to them on this transaction; and, if so, how much?
  Mr. BAKER: As shown in the correspondence circulated on 19th November, a brokerage of ⅛ per cent, was paid on the amount postponed.
  Mr. GWYNNE: Are we to understand that the transaction entailed double brokerage fees to Messrs. Samuel Montagu and Company in addition to the 3 per cent
  984
  that had to be paid by the Government for postponing delivery for two months?
  Mr. BAKER: Yes, Sir, two brokerages.
  Mr. WORTHINGTON-EVANS: Had not that transaction the effect of making the Government pay 4½ per cent, per annum on the money?
  Mr. BAKER: I gave reasons for postponing in response to an earlier question.
  Mr. GWYNNEasked the Under-Secretary of State for India, if his attention has been called to the fact that £600,000 worth of silver was purchased by Messrs. Samuel Montagu and Company on behalf of the Government of India on 11th September at 29⅛d., whereas the market price of the day was 28 13–16d.; and what is the amount of the difference in cost and commission between the two amounts?
  Mr. H. BAKER: The market price of 28 13–16d. was the price for silver bought for cash in London, in respect of which the cost of freight and insurance to India would have been paid by the purchaser. The purchase actually made was of silver to be sent from China, freight and insurance being paid by the seller, and the purchase price being paid partly on arrival in Bombay and partly some days after arrival. The extra gross purchase price was £6,438, and the extra commission was £8. Against this there was a saving of about £6,400 on freight, insurance, and interest. The Secretary of State is satisfied that so large a purchase could not have been made for immediate delivery in London at the date mentioned without raising the London price, which, a week later, had risen to 29 3–16d., and continued to rise for several weeks afterwards.
  Mr. GWYNNE: Will the hon. Gentleman answer my question whether this £600,000 worth of silver was bought above the market price?
  Mr. H. BAKER: I have answered the question. The market price in London is not the price of silver delivered in India, and this silver was bought in China, freight and insurance being paid by the seller.
  Mr. GWYNNEasked how the India Office satisfied themselves that Messrs. Samuel Montagu and Company acted as brokers and not as dealers in purchasing

  985
  silver, seeing that he is unaware of the names of the sellers from whom the silver was purchased?
  Mr. BAKER: Messrs. Samuel Montagu and Company were instructed to purchase silver on behalf of the Secretary of State, i.e., to act as brokers; the contract notes furnished by them indicated that they acted in that capacity; they have assured the Secretary of State in writing that they did so; and have offered to submit their books for inspection by his representatives.
  Mr. GWYNNE: Do the India Office still dispute that Messrs. Samuel Montagu and Company carry on business as dealers as well as brokers?
  Mr. BAKER: I can only say in answer to the hon. Member's suggestion that the Secretary of State has satisfied himself on this point, and if at any future date he wishes to examine the books he can do so.
  Mr. GWYNNE: Has he examined the books?
  Mr. BAKER: He has not done so, but he is perfectly satisfied.
  Mr. GWYNNE: How can he be satisfied?
  Mr. SPEAKER: The hon. Member had better put the question down.
  Mr. GWYNNE: It is done.
  Mr. TOUCHEasked whether the Secretary of State for India is able to submit any estimate of the additional cost of the recent silver purchases on behalf of the Government of India, owing to the accumulation of large balances at home having encouraged native speculators to form a ring to force up the price of silver against the Government, as compared with the probable cost if, during the last three years, moderate amounts of silver had been purchased to be minted when required; and can he give any assurance that the accumulation of unnecessarily large balances in London will be avoided in future?
  Mr. BAKER: The Secretary of State is unable to estimate what would have been the effect on the price of silver if he had made purchases in 1909, 1910, and 1911, when they were not required. In abstaining from such premature purchases he acted in consultation with the Government of India and in accordance with their views. He has no desire to accumulate unnecessarily large balances in London,
  986
  and their large amount in the last three years was mainly due to the net receipts in India from revenue and other sources being largely in excess of the estimates and to a very heavy demand for remittance.
  Mr. TOUCHE: If these balances are not required in India, does it not indicate that the people of India are unduly taxed for the benefit of the London Money Market?
  Mr. GWYNNEasked if the India Office approached the Bank of England this year on the subject of purchasing silver before the order was placed with Messrs. Samuel Montagu and Company; and, if so, did the Bank of England decline to purchase because they were asked to do so through any specified firm?
  Mr. BAKER: The Bank of England were not approached on the subject this year.
  Mr. GWYNNEasked whether there is, or has been within the last ten years, a contract or agreement between the India Office and the Bank of England relating to the purchase of silver; and, if so, the terms and state when it was entered into and when it expired?
  Mr. BAKER: Before 1906 the Bank of England charged ⅛ per cent, on all silver purchased through them. This was separate from the commission paid to brokers. In March, 1906, an agreement was made by which the Secretary of State was to pay ¼ per cent, for brokerage, commission, etc., on the first two millions purchased in any financial year through the Bank, and ⅛ per cent, on any further amount, the payment to be divided between the Bank and the brokers, as might be arranged by them, without the intervention of the India Office. The agreement was for the period from 1st April, 1906, to 31st March, 1913.
  Mr. GWYNNE: Is this a compulsory arrangement?
  Mr. BAKER: It is to last until 1913, but it is not compulsory.
  Mr. GWYNNE: Is it not binding?
  Mr. BAKER: It is not compulsory.
  Mr. GWYNNE: Will the hon. Gentleman give the House the terms of the agreement?
  Mr. BAKER: Yes, if the hon. Member asks for it.

  Factory Inspectors (India).
  Mr. JOWETTasked the Under-Secretary for India whether, having regard to the fact that of the total number of factory managers in India, namely, about 2,430, some 2,000, or 78 per cent., are Indians, and all the ordinary factory operatives are Indians, he will take steps to secure the appointment of an adequate number of Indian factory inspectors who are acquainted with the conditions prevailing in Indian factories, and who, speaking the same language as the operatives, will be better able to obtain correct information, and may therefore be expected to perform their duties more efficiently than inspectors sent from the United Kingdom?
  Mr. BAKER: I am unable to verify the hon. Member's figures, but it is a fact that European managers and assistant-managers are employed in the larger factories. First-hand knowledge of the working of the Factory Acts in this country is also an important qualification for inspectors in India. There is no bar to the employment of Indians in such offices, but the responsibility for enforcing the Indian factory law rests with the local Governments, and the Secretary of State is not prepared to interfere with them in their selection of agents.

  Lord Nicholson's Committee (Report).
  Captain MURRAYasked whether the Committee presided over by Lord Nicholson has yet completed its labours; and when the Report will be presented?
  Mr. BAKER: The Committee has not yet completed its labours. It is not known when its Report will be presented.
  Captain MURRAY: Will the hon. Gentleman bear in mind that it is the desire of hon. Members to discuss any changes that may be contemplated?
  Mr. BAKER: I will convey that view to the Secretary of State.

  Council Bills (India).
  Mr. TOUCHEasked whether, as the Secretary of State for India does not intend to restrict his drawings by weekly sales of Council Bills to the amount of home payments on account of the Government of India, but proposes to sell additional bills, so far as the resources permit, provided there is a sufficient demand for
  988
  them, it is to be understood that he is not prepared to place a limit on the accumulation of balances in London?
  Mr. BAKER: The accumulation of balances in London is limited in three ways: First, by the capacity of the Government of India to meet Council Bills from their balances; secondly, by the practice of regulating the sales so as not to interfere with the flow of gold to India except to prevent the necessity of its being subsequently re-exported by the Government; thirdly, by the practice of using part of the balances for the discharge of floating debt and for capital outlay.
  Mr. TOUCHEasked why trade requirements, for which the Secretary of State for India has sold Council Bills and telegraphic transfers in excess of payments which he has to make on account of the Indian Government, have not been met under the operation of the Gold Note Act, which was intended to provide for the free and automatic flow of funds to India and for the maintenance of exchange should the flow turn in an opposite direction, thus safeguarding India's financial position; is the proper course to buy silver in London against the sales at 13.4 5–32d., shipping it to India and minting it into rupees, the profit going to build up the gold standard reserve; and why has this practice been neglected at the risk of getting the financial position into a tangle?
  Mr. BAKER: The Gold Note Act (i.e., Act II. of 1898, as amended by Act VIII. of 1898) expired on 21st July, 1900. Silver has been bought and coined as required and the profit has been added to the gold standard reserve, with the exception of about £1,100,000 used for capital expenditure on railways in accordance with the recommendations of the Committee of 1907–8 on railway administration and finance.

  Gold Standard Reserve (India).
  Mr. TOUCHEasked the lowest figure to which the sterling portion of the gold standard reserve sunk when a moderate strain was placed on it during the adverse trade conditions of 1908, and the amount before the transfer of a chance balance of £8,090,000 from India's surplus funds held by approved borrowers or on deposit in London?
  Mr. BAKER: The lowest figure was £5,966,724 (securities being valued at

  989
  market price). The Secretary of State does not understand the last part of the question.
  Mr. TOUCHEasked what became of the exchange profit on the transactions of bringing home balances at about 1s. 4 5–32d. (the bullion point) used to restore the gold standard reserve in 1908–9, and the £8,090,000 sold in India or London against them at or about 1s. 3⅞d.?
  Mr. BAKER: The profit on bills sold by the Secretary of State in India above 1s. 4d. per rupee, or by the Government of India in London below that rate, is added to the general balances of the Government of India; and the usual practice was followed in the cases mentioned. But the Secretary of State did not sell at 1s. 4 5–32d. per rupee in 1908–9, nor did the Government of India sell at 1s. 37/2d.
  Mr. TOUCHE: Why has not the profit been added to the gold standard reserve, to which it properly belongs?
  Mr. BAKER: I have told the hon. Member that the usual practice was followed.
  Mr. TOUCHEasked whether it is in accordance with the recommendations of the Fowler Committee that a large portion of the gold standard reserve should be held in silver as at present, while a large portion of the paper currency reserve is held in gold to meet obligations which can only be demanded in silver?
  Mr. BAKER: The silver branch of the Gold Standard Reserve was established on the recommendation of the Government of India in 1906. The holding of gold in the Paper Currency Reserve originated with the Gold Note Act of 1898, which was passed before the Fowler Committee was appointed, and is mentioned in paragraph 15 of its Report. It now continues under the Indian Paper Currency Act of 1910. It is not the case that the obligations against which the Paper Currency Reserve is held can only be demanded or met in silver. Notes are encashable in legal tender money, which includes sovereigns and half-sovereigns as well as rupees and subsidiary coins.

  Finance Methods (India).
  Mr. TOUCHEasked whether the Under-Secretary for India has considered the risks involved in the present financial methods of the India Office if within the
  990
  next few months, in addition to the monetary demands in India to move its crops, there should arise troubles requiring the bulk of the large balances at present lent to banks and approved borrowers in London and the Paper Currency Reserves, to be available for use in India; is he aware that it would necessitate the sudden withdrawal of many millions from the London market and the purchase of enormous sums of silver, which would force up the rate and upset markets; and will he consider a change of policy in future to avoid this risk?
  Mr. BAKER: One of the advantages of the present method of holding the India Office balances (which has been in force since 1838) is that the loans and deposits can be called in, if required, at short notice and without difficulty, as is illustrated by the fact that, since 31st March last, they have been reduced by £8,915,000, and the money, if required for the purchase of silver, becomes available at the most convenient place. If the hon. Member wishes to submit proposals for a change of policy, the Secretary of State will be glad to consider them.
  Mr. TOUCHE: Does the hon. Gentleman consider the effect on the Money Market if the banks and approved borrowers are suddenly called upon to pay out many millions of money, as they are under a technical obligation to do?
  Mr. BAKER: That is a very speculative question. I have answered the point already as far as it can be answered.
  Mr. GWYNNEasked what margin* is required by the India Office over and above the current market value of the securities deposited by the approved borrowers of the cash balances of the Government of India?
  Mr. BAKER: India Sterling Bills, India Bonds and Guaranteed Debentures of the several Indian Railway companies are taken at par. British Treasury Bills, Exchequer Bonds, Metropolitan Water Board Bills and London County Bills are accepted at their market value except when the unexpired period is very short, in which case they are taken at par. The other securities that are accepted are taken at their minimum market value on the day of the loan with a five per cent, cover, which is at once added to if the value of the security falls during the currency of the loan.

  Paper Currency (India).
  Mr. TOUCHEasked the maximum sum for which there is statutory authority for investing the Paper Currency Reserve in British Government securities?
  Mr. BAKER: The maximum sum is 40,000,000 of rupees.

  Imprisonment of Mr. Arnold (Rangoon).
  Mr. KELLAWAYasked whether the Governor-General has received from Mr. Arnold, now in prison for libelling a magistate at Rangoon, an appeal for a re-trial; and, if so, whether the Governor-General will use his powers to have such appeal transferred to Calcutta?
  Mr. BAKER: The Secretary of State is not aware that an appeal for a retrial has been made by Mr. Arnold to the Governor-General. The Governor-General has no power to order a retrial, nor would the Calcutta High Court have jurisdiction to deal with an appeal of the kind.
  Mr. KELLAWAY: I shall call attention to the whole of the circumstances of this case on the Motion for Adjournment.

  Artillery Ranges.
  Mr. FRED HALL (Dulwich)asked the Secretary for War if he will give particulars of land purchased in England or Scotland during the last two years for the establishment of Artillery ranges?
  The SECRETARY of STATE for WAR (Colonel Seely): Nearly 19,000 acres have been purchased at Ad Fines and nearly 5,000 acres at Salisbury Plain for Artillery ranges.

  Southern Command (Local Audit Staff).
  Mr. C. BATHURSTasked the Secretary for War whether, in view of the fact that the local audit staff on the established list attached to the Southern Command, who are paid from Civil Service Votes, are receiving a substantial addition to their remuneration owing to the present high cost of living prevailing there, he will, in revising the ration allowance of the soldiers on the same administrative staff, consider their claim to additional remuneration on the same grounds?
  Mr. BAKER: I regret that I still cannot follow the hon. Member's reference to this staff; but if they are paid from Civil Service Votes they would not be administered by the War Office.

  Army Reserve.
  Mr. ALBERT SMITHasked the Secretary for War whether his attention has been called to the case of Francis Entwistle, who joined the Scots Guards in 1891, and served with the colours until 1898, rejoined from the Reserve on mobilisation in 1899, and served in the South African War, earning the Queen's South Africa medal and clasp for Belmont, Modder River, Paardeberg, Diefontein, Johannesberg, Diamond Hill, and Belfast, and also the King's South Africa medal and clasp 1901–2, and was then transferred to the Reserve, joined Section D, 1st Class Army Reserve in 1901, completing sixteen years' service in all; and whether he will reconsider the refusal to allow Entwistle to serve a second term in the same Reserve because he was following the occupation of cotton weaver, but at the same time being well used to horses; and, if not, whether he will recommend the Regulations being so altered as to admit of men of this stamp entering the class of Reserves referred to or let it be known to men joining the Army from the textile trades that it will be impossible for them to take full advantage of the Regulations unless they learn another trade?
  Colonel SEELY: My attention has been drawn to this case. Re-engagements for a second term of service in Section D are regulated by paragraph 18 (a) of the Army Reserve Regulations, and are confined to those men who can be employed on their trades on mobilisation, e.g., bakers, butchers, carriage smiths, wheelers, saddlers, etc. A weaver could not be employed on his trade while serving with the troops on mobilisation. It is not considered to be in the interests of the Service to make the suggested extension of the Regulations, and I regret therefore that I am unable to take the action suggested by my hon. Friend.

  National Reserve.
  Mr. ARTHUR STRAUSSasked the right hon. Gentleman if he is now in a position to state his intentions as to giving any assistance to the National Reserve?
  Colonel SEELY: I am not yet in a position to make a statement on this subject.
  Mr. A. STRAUSS: Can the right hon. Gentleman say when he will be able to make a statement?
  Colonel SEELY: I certainly will make a statement, but I would not like to pledge myself as to the precise date. It will be before long. The matter is being considered.
  Mr. A. STRAUSS: In the meantime the National Reserve gets one penny a month. Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether one penny a month is sufficient encouragement for the National Reserve?
  Colonel SEELY: I do not think that arises out of this question, but, in any case, the matter is being considered as to the best form in which further developments of the National Reserve can take place. I am not aware that there is any such discontent as the hon. Member suggests.
  Lord BALCARRES: Can the right hon. Gentleman say when he will be in a position to make an announcement on this subject?
  Colonel SEELY: No, Sir; I cannot definitely say when I will make an announcement. I shall certainly make it before next year's Estimates, and in the meantime the National Reserve continues to grow satisfactorily.

  Army Horses.
  Sir REGINALD POLE-CAREWasked what is the average length of training necessary to make a horse efficient in Cavalry, Horse Artillery, Field Artillery, Howitzer and heavy batteries, Mounted Infantry, and other mounted units respectively?
  Colonel SEELY: It is impracticable to lay down any definite period for such training, as the time necessary depends upon the horse's age, condition, and temperament, and the facilities for training. In the Artillery, I am advised, that a seasoned horse can take its place in the team practically at once.
  Sir R. POLE-CAREW: Does that apply to Horse and Field Artillery?
  Colonel SEELY: That is the advice I am given, that a seasoned horse can be put in almost at once.

  Territorial Force.
  Mr. COURTHOPEasked the right hon. Gentleman whether any officer of the Volunteer Force or the Territorial Force has been appointed to the Territorial Force Reserve who has exceeded the limit of
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  age laid down by regulations; and, if so, whether he will give favourable consideration to officers who, though they have exceeded the age of forty-five years, are under the age at which officers are compulsorily retired from the active list of the Territorial Force, provided they are specially recommended by the General Officer Commanding-in-Chief on account of their physical fitness and general military qualifications?
  Colonel SEELY: A few officers have been so appointed under exceptional circumstances. It is not considered that any useful purpose would be served by a general relaxation of the regulations, but the Army Council are prepared to consider as special cases applications for the appointment of officers whose age exceeds the limits laid down.
  Mr. CAMPIONasked the right hon. Gentleman what is the number of Territorial Infantry that his military advisers consider to be necessary for the defence of these shores; what was the number actually in the ranks as per last state; what number does the establishment provide for; what is the object of wishing to maintain so many troops above the number required; and whether, if the establishment is the correct number required, the number of men serving in the ranks is dangerously below the number required?
  Colonel SEELY: The establishments and strength of the Territorial Infantry on the 1st November were as follows:—

  Officers.

  N. C. O. s and men.

  Establishment

  5,745

  196,627

  Strength

  4,724

  159,450

  I do not think it is possible to discuss the general question of our requirements for the defence of these shores within the limits of an answer to a question.
  MARQUESS of TULLIBARDINE: Does not the right hon. Gentleman understand that half the attacks against the Territorial Force are made through evasive answers on this point; can he not tell us the number of men he requires, and then we will do our best to try to get them?
  Mr. SPEAKER: That is an argumentative question.
  Mr. CAMPIONasked how many of the Territorial Infantry have not been to camp this year; how many have done eight days' training and under; how many

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  have done over eight days' training; how many have done the full musketry course; and how many have failed to reach the full standard of efficiency in musketry?
  Colonel SEELY: The figures for camp are as follows:—

  Officers.

  N. C. O. s and men.

  Absent

  656

  22,697

  Present:

  Less than eight days

  15

  194

  Eight days and less than fifteen

  609

  50,400

  Fifteen days and over

  3,493

  88,720

  The musketry returns are not yet available.

  NATIONAL INSURANCE ACT.

    SOLDIERS.
    Mr. BOOTHasked the, Secretary of State for War if complaints exist among soldiers, who are eligible to join approved societies, that representatives are not permitted to visit them in barracks to explain the Sections of the National Health Insurance Act which especially refer to men in the Service; and if he will give instructions for the removal of the prohibition under proper regulations?
    Colonel SEELY: Instructions have recently been sent to general officers commanding to take measures for explaining to soldiers the advantages of joining approved societies. I am informed that in many cases the local military authorities have got representatives of societies to come to explain the Act to soldiers. There are over 500 such societies who are willing to accept soldiers, and it is not considered desirable to give a general permission to all their agents to visit men in barracks; hut steps are being taken to see that every reasonable facility is afforded to soldiers to join approved societies.
    Mr. BOOTH: Will the right lion. Gentleman consider the advisability of appointing a special day or hour at which the representatives of the various societies can attend in the large barracks for the purpose of enrolling members?
    Colonel SEELY: Yes, Sir, I will, certainly consider that suggestion, and every opportunity shall be given to soldiers of joining approved societies.
    Mr. WILLIAM THORNE: And officials of trade unions?

    INCOME TAX.
    EARL of RONALDSHAYasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if a man whose income, when joined to that of his wife, exceeds £160 a year is liable to pay Income Tax upon the joint income; and, if that is so, whether a man who is an employed person and whose income, in conjunction with his wife's, exceeds £160 a year is not entitled to exemption from the provisions of the National Insurance Act?
    The FINANCIAL SECRETARY to the TREASURY (Mr. Masterman): The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative, subject to the exception under 60 and 61 Vic, c. 24, Section 5, where the husband and wife are each separately earning an income from personal labour and the joint income does not exceed £500. With regard to the second part of the question, I would refer the Noble Lord to the answer I gave my hon. Friend the Member for the Ossory Division of Queen's County on 25th October.

    WELSH INSURANCE COMMISSION.
    Mr. SHIRLEY BENNasked whether the Treasury agreed that an assistant secretary to the Welsh Insurance Commission should be appointed; whether the Welsh Insurance Commissioners decided that a knowledge of Welsh was not necessary for that officer; having so decided, whether they advertised in July last for an assistant secretary, the advertisement not specifying that a knowledge of Welsh was necessary; whether, on 13th September, the Commissioners nominated as assistant secretary an Englishman with experience of matters connected with the National Insurance Act; and whether the Treasury delayed the matter for a month, and then disapproved of the candidate selected by the Welsh Insurance Commissioners on the grounds that the person nominated could not speak Welsh?
    Mr. MASTERMAN: The answer to each of the questions is in the affirmative. The Treasury regard a knowledge of the language of the Welsh people as an essential qualification for the post of assistant secretary of the Welsh Commission.
    Mr. SHIRLEY BENN: May I ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer, as the Secretary of the Welsh Commissioners is a capable Welsh scholar competent to deal with the Welsh letters, as the Treasury state; whether it is not the duty of the

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    Welsh Insurance Commissioners to appoint as assistant secretary a man who has had considerable administrative training and has had a good practical experience in working the initial stages of the Insurance Act?
    Mr. SPEAKER: I should like to see those questions in writing.

    MEDICAL BENEFIT.
    Mr. PETOasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether, in view of the resolution passed on Tuesday, the 19th instant, by the representatives of the divisions of the British Medical Association that the provisions of the National Insurance Act are unworkable and derogatory to the medical profession, and that the medical profession decline to take service under the Act and Regulations as at present constituted, he proposes to recast the Regulations for providing medical benefit in such a manner as shall not be injurious to medical science and practice in this country; and, in any case, how he proposes to provide the medical benefit offered under the Act to insured contributors?
    The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER (Mr. Lloyd George): I was requested last week by the British Medical Association to receive a deputation in regard to certain points in the Regulations relating to medical benefit and acceded to their suggestion. I am at present in communication with a committee appointed by the association for that purpose. In the circumstances I consider that no statement could usefully be made.

  Licensing Appeal Court (Grangemouth and Kilsyth).
  Dr. CHAPPLEasked the Secretary for Scotland whether a separate Licensing Appeal Court will be set up for Grangemouth and Kilsyth, since the increase in population has entitled Stirling to a separate Court; and, if not, can he account for the delay?
  The SECRETARY for SCOTLAND (Mr. McKinnon Wood): The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. An Order dealing with the matter will be issued in due course. I understand there is no urgency as there is no business for the Appeal Court arising out of the recent Licensing Courts.

  Scottish Universities (Fees).
  Mr. FREDERICK WHYTEasked whether the directors of the Carnegie Trust consulted the Scottish Education Department on the question of making the leaving certificate examination of the Department a condition of the payment of university fees; whether there have been any communications of any kind between these two bodies on this subject; and whether any attempt was made to elicit the opinion of the Scottish universities upon it?
  Mr. McKINNON WOOD: The answer to the first and second parts of the question is in the negative, as is also the answer to the third part, so far as the Scottish Education Department are concerned.
  Mr. WHYTE: Is it not a fact that no communication whatever passed between, these two bodies?
  Mr. McKINNON WOOD: That was my answer.
  Mr. HOGGEasked the Secretary for Scotland (1) whether, in view of the fact that the original constitution of the Carnegie Trust declares that no capable students shall be debarred from university education, he is prepared in the interests of Scottish education to make representations to the trust that their policy of insising on the leaving certificate of the Scottish Education Department as the necessary preliminary to obtaining a Grant in aid of fees is likely to debar a type of student who previously has been one of the most valuable assets of the Scottish universities; and (2) whether the Scottish Education Department has considered the special case of medical students who now take a preliminary examination in subjects which cease to be subjects of instruction for their degrees, inasmuch as the new regulations of the Carnegie Trust, by forcing them to take the leaving certificate of the Scottish Education Department before they can receive Grants in aid of fees, may delay their entrance to a university for eighteen months in case of failure in only one subject; and whether he proposes to take any steps to prevent this policy militating against the reputation of the Scottish medical schools?
  Mr. McKINNON WOOD: The Regulation referred to is not as stated in the questions, nor do I think its effect is

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  correctly stated. It does not apply to all students as appears to be suggested. It does apply to students entering the universities from the secondary schools, as a general rule and with certain qualifications, and as applied to such students I regard it as salutary in its effect and calculated to advance the interests of sound education. Otherwise, as I have already stated recently, neither as Secretary for Scotland nor as the Minister responsible for the administration of the Scotch Education Department have I any jurisdiction over the Carnegie Trust or the Scottish universities.
  Mr. HOGGE: Am I to understand that the Carnegie Trust grant will not apply to students who have not gone through secondary schools and are entering a university?
  Mr. McKINNON WOOD: No, I said nothing of the kind.
  Mr. HOGGE: What did you say?
  Mr. HOGGEasked whether, in leaving certificate examination of the Scottish Education Department, the principle of compensatory marking exists; whether this is so in the preliminary examination of the joint board of preliminary examiners at the universities; and whether, therefore, in the view of the Scottish Education Department, the university preliminary examination is a more satisfactory test of the capability of a student to enter on a university career than the leaving certificate of the Department?
  Mr. McKINNON WOOD: My hon. Friend appears to have in view the fact that, in determining the award of the leaving certificate, excellence in one subject of a candidate's group may be allowed to compensate, within reasonable limits, for weakness in another. This, however, has no effect on the marking in individual subjects, passes in which alone can confer exemption either in whole or in part from the university preliminary examination. The reply to the last part of the question is in the negative.
  Mr. HOGGE: Are we to understand that the Scottish Education Department are now of opinion that the preliminary examination by the Joint University Preliminary Board has a superior value to the Scottish-leaving certificate?
  Mr. McKINNON WOOD: That is the question that is asked me?
  Mr. HOGGE: It is a question arising out of the answer.
  Mr. HOGGEasked the Secretary for Scotland whether, in view of the fact that the Carnegie Trust in Scotland are endeavouring to insist upon the leaving certificate of the Scottish Education Department as preliminary to a Grant in aid of fees to students entering the universities, he can see his way to arrange for a spring and autumn examination for the leaving certificate, so as to avoid the present loss of time to a student who may fail in one or two subjects?
  Mr. McKINNON WOOD: It is not accurate to suggest that the leaving certificate is required in all cases, nor do I think that under the present system difficulties arise which would justify the proposal of my hon. Friend, even if it were practicable.
  Mr. HOGGE: Is the right hon. Gentleman not aware that a student failing in one subject in the leaving certificate examination is not able now to advance to a university for a period of eighteen months?
  Mr. McKINNON WOOD: No, I am not aware of that.

  Tobacco Duty.
  Mr. GODFREYLOCKER-LAMPSONasked why the Customs Import Duty on imported foreign-cut tobacco is 4s. 8d., while the drawback of duty on British-cut tobacco exported is only 4s. 1d.?
  Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: The differences between the Import Duties and the drawbacks allowed on similar articles manufactured in the United Kingdom have existed since the revision of the Tobacco Duties by the Manufactured Tobacco Act of 1863. The subject is a technical one, and the reasons for these differences cannot be stated within the limits of an answer to a question, but they were explained by Mr. Gladstone in this House on 23rd and 27th February and 2nd, 5th, and 19th March, 1863.
  Mr. G. LOCKER-LAMPSON: Is it not a fact that British-cut tobacco at present is really protected against foreign-cut tobacco?
  Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: I remember that being the subject of controversy in this House, and it took about three weeks to settle it.

  Land Value Duties (Ireland).
  Mr. CASSELasked the right hon. Gentleman whether the grand total produced by the Increment Value Duty, the Reversion Duty, and the Undeveloped Land Duty together in Ireland during the last financial year was £157; and whether he can state or give any estimate of the cost of collecting this sum?
  Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: The total amount of Increment Value Duty, Reversion Duty, and Undeveloped Land Duty paid in Ireland during the year to 31st March, 1912, is as stated in the first part of the question. As regards the second part, I would refer to the answer given by my right hon. Friend the Secretary to the Treasury to the hon. Member for Oswestry on 22nd February last.
  Mr. CASSEL: Does the right hon. Gentleman consider it satisfactory that in the third year of the existence of these taxes the proceeds of the three taxes together should amount to a sum which is nothing like the amount allowed to two Members of Parliament for their travelling expenses?
  Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: I never stated that I expected much Land Value Duty from Ireland. On the contrary, I remember that during the discussion, when it was staled there would be a heavy burden on Irish land, I said quite the reverse.
  Mr. CASSEL: Will the right hon. Gentleman consider that the smallness of the produce may, perhaps, account—
  Mr. SPEAKER: That is in the nature of an argumentative question.

  Registrar of Sasines.
  MARQUESS Of TULLIBARDINEasked whether there is any vacancy at present in the office of the Register for Sasines caused by the removal of an official in that office in the beginning of October; and, if so, when is it intended to fill it up, and have the Civil Service Commissioners no qualified person whom they can recommend to fill up the vacancy?
  Mr. McKINNON WOOD: The reply to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. It is proposed to defer filling the vacancy pending the holding of another competitive examination, which
  1002
  will be held in due course. Three appointments have already been made upon the basis of the last examination held, when there were eleven competitors, and the keeper of the Register of Sasines prefers to await the results of another examination before making other appointments.
  MARQUESS of TULLIBARDINE: Will the right hon. Gentleman read certain correspondence I have on the subject?
  Mr. McKINNON WOOD: Certainly, with pleasure.

  Prisons (Scotland) Act.
  Mr. FREDERICK WHYTEasked whether the provisions of the Prisons (Scotland) Act, 1909, regarding the appointment of women members to the visiting committees for Scottish prisons, have been generally adopted; and, if so, how many women are now members of such committees?
  Mr. McKINNON WOOD: The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. At present there are forty-two women members of visiting committees distributed over the nine prisons in Scotland where women are ordinraily imprisoned.
  MARQUESS of TULLIBARDINE: Are there not two lady visitors at Perth?
  Mr. McKINNON WOOD: Yes, I believe so.

  Government Legislation (Preliminary Investigation).
  Viscount WOLMERasked the Prime Minister whether there is any precedent for His Majesty's Government making investigations, upon the results of which legislation is to be based, by any other means than an open, impartial, public, and fair inquiry?
  The PRIME MINISTER (Mr. Asquith): If, as I presume, the Noble Lord refers to the unofficial body as to which he has made previous inquiries, the answers which I have already given show that in our view the suggestions made in the question do not accurately represent the relation of the Government to the Committee and its findings.
  Viscount WOLMER: Why are the Government afraid of having an open, impartial inquiry into the land system?
  The PRIME MINISTER: The Government are not afraid.
  Viscount HELMSLEY: Does the right hon. Gentleman's answer mean that in the eyes of the Government the findings of this inquiry will have no value?
  The PRIME MINISTER: No, certainly not. The Government leave themselves free to adopt or modify them as they like.
  Mr. OLIVER LOCKER-LAMPSON: Who bears the cost?
  The PRIME MINISTER: Not one penny comes out of public funds.

  Home Rule (Scotland).
  MARQUESS of TULLIBARDINEasked whether it is intended to introduce the Home Rule Bill for Scotland during the lifetime of the present Parliament?
  The PRIME MINISTER: I can at present make no statement as to the business of Parliament in future Sessions.
  MARQUESS Of TULLIBARDINE: Does the right hon. Gentleman mind me drawing my own conclusions from that answer?
  The PRIME MINISTER: Not in the least.
  MARQUESS of TULLIBARDINEasked in what way the financial details of Irish Home Rule were considered in relation to the financial details of Scottish Home Rule, and upon what basis was the result of these considerations arrived at; whether any moneys expended for Irish internal or Imperial purposes will fall to be paid out of the Imperial Exchequer; and, if so, whether Scotland will have to pay a share of such?
  The POSTMASTER-GENERAL (Mr. Herbert Samuel): The consideration of the financial details of a Scottish Home Rule Bill would be premature at the present time. Moneys expended by the Irish Government will be provided mainly from the Transferred Sum which will be issued out of the Imperial Exchequer, but which will be far more than covered by the revenue derived from taxation in Ireland. With respect to the deficit in the cost of the Reserved Services I would refer the Noble Lord to my answer to his question on Thursday last.
  MARQUESS of TULLIBARDINE: Am I to understand from all that that Scotland will not have to pay any share of what I may call Trish expenditure?
  Mr. HERBERT SAMUEL: In so far as there is a deficit resting upon the Imperial Exchequer, Scotland will contribute her proportion.

  Foot-and-Mouth Disease.
  Mr. PATRICK WHITEasked the Prime Minister whether, having regard to the statements made to him recently by a deputation of Scotch importers of Irish cattle and to repeated statements made by Irish stock-raisers as to dependence of the one upon the other for the successful prosecution of their respective shares in presenting finished fat cattle to the British consumer, and to the general views expressed by the spokesmen of the deputation that the rules applicable to England should not be denied to Ireland, he will now consider the advisability of appointing a Select Committee of this House to take evidence from experienced agriculturists, and report as to what permanent regulations should exist governing the transit of cattle from one country to the other in the event of an outbreak of disease in either?
  The PRIME MINISTER: The responsibility of regulating the transit of cattle between Ireland and Great Britain when disease exists in either country ought, in my opinion, to be left to the Departments concerned. I do not think that any advantage would be gained by the appointment of a Select Committee.
  Mr. PATRICK WHITE: What will happen if (he Departments concerned fail to agree between themselves as to what is the proper course to adopt?
  The PRIME MINISTER: It will then be decided by the Cabinet.
  Mr. C. BATHURST: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there is a very strong feeling amongst British agriculturists that there should be some Committee in order to facilitate co-operation between the two Departments?
  The PRIME MINISTER: Does the hon. Member mean a Committee of this House?
  Mr. C. BATHURST: A Select Committee, not necessarily of this House, but preferably.
  The PRIME MINISTER: Perhaps the hon. Member will put down a question independently.

  GOVERNMENT OF IRELAND BILL.

    IRISH FINANCE (COMMITTEE).
    Mr. GODFREY LOCKER-LAMPSONasked the Prime Minister how many copies of the evidence given before the Committee on Irish Finance were printed?
    The PRIME MINISTER: Thirty-eight copies were printed for the use of the Cabinet, the members of the Committee, and the officials concerned.

    LEGISLATION (RESERVED MATTERS).
    Mr. GODFREY LOCKER-LAMPSONasked, with reference to Clause 2 of the Government of Ireland Bill, by which the Irish Parliament is precluded from making laws in respect of trade, quarantine, merchant shipping, lighthouses, trade marks, merchandise marks, copyright, patent rights, or weights and measures, whether the officers who perform the Executive duties in Ireland in relation to these matters will be exempt from any jurisdiction of or disciplinary obedience to the Irish Executive, and will be solely amenable to the several Imperial authorities administering such services from the respective headquarters in London?
    The PRIME MINISTER: The answer is in the affirmative, except to the extent of any arrangements that may be made between the Imperial and Irish Departments under Clause 40. Those arrangements are to be such as not to diminish the responsibility of the Imperial Department by which the arrangement is made.

    IRISH MINISTER.
    Mr. GODFREY LOCKER-LAMPSONasked what Minister of the Crown will, after the passing of the Government of Ireland Bill, answer questions relating to Ireland in the British House of Commons?
    The PRIME MINISTER: As I have stated before, there will be a Minister in this House answerable for Ireland: it is impossible as yet to say what will be his precise designation.
    Viscount HELMSLEY: When does the right hon. Gentleman propose to determine who is to be the Minister who is to answer these questions?
    The PRIME MINISTER: I think when the Bill comes into operation.
    Mr. KING: Will there be any Irish questions?
    Mr. MOORE: Will the existence and the duties of this Minister be provided for by legislation, and, if so, why is there no such legislation in the Bill?
    The PRIME MINISTER: I do not think it is necessary to provide by legislation.
    Mr. MOORE: Can a new post and new duties be created without legislation?
    The PRIME MINISTER: No, but it is quite possible that a Minister already in existence may be charged with the duty.
    Mr. MOORE: Will the office of Chief Secretary be abolished?

  School Inspectors (Scotland).
  Mr. HOGGEasked the Secretary for Scotland whether, in view of future appointments to the inspectorate of schools in Scotland, he proposes to issue a Memorandum to the profession indicating the positions for which teachers will be eligible; and whether he can state how far actual teaching experience will weigh with the Scottish Education Department, in addition to other academic qualifications, in making such future appointments?
  Mr. McKINNON WOOD: Actual teaching experience is at present a consideration of great weight in making appointments to the inspectorate, and it is probable that even greater weight will be given to it in future, but I see no need to issue a Memorandum on this point.
  Mr. HOGGEasked to what class of inspectorship Mr. Angus Macdonald has recently been appointed; whether Mr. Macdonald is a trained teacher; how many years he has taught; whether there are among the ranks of His Majesty's inspectors any cases of teachers, either in elementary or secondary schools, who have risen to the grade of junior inspector; and, if so, after how many years' service?
  Mr. McKINNON WOOD: Mr. Angus Macdonald has been appointed a sub-inspector of the second class. He is a trained teacher who has taught for nine years. Among the ranks of the inspectorate other than sub-inspectors, all but six were previously teachers in elementary or secondary schools. The periods

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  of service of these men range from about one year to twenty-three years, exclusive of service as pupil teachers and attendance at training college. Of the six already mentioned, one had experience in teaching as a lecturer at a training college, two at technical colleges and in continuation classes, and the other three had experience of teaching at a university.
  Mr. HOGGE: How many sub-inspectors have risen to the grade of junior inspectors?
  Mr. McKINNON WOOD: The hon. Member must give me notice of a question like that.
  Mr. HOGGE: It is in the question now.
  Mr. HOGGEasked whether during the last ten years junior inspectors have been appointed to the inspectorate over the head of sub-inspectors who have had practical training in teaching; and, if so, how many?
  Mr. McKINNON WOOD: Seventeen junior inspectors have been appointed in the last ten years, but it is not correct to say that they have been appointed over the heads of sub-inspectors. Nor is the implication of the question that practical training in teaching is confined to the grade of sub-inspector in any way correct.
  Mr. HOGGE: If these men have not been appointed over the head of the sub-inspectors and the sub-inspectors remain where they are, are they not under these men?
  Mr. McKINNON WOOD: They are two distinct classes of officials.

  School Accommodation (Scotland).
  Major HOPEasked the Secretary for Scotland if he has made any estimate of the cost of providing the additional school accommodation which will be necessary if the Scotch Education Department Minute of 27th March, 1911, reducing the size of classes from sixty to fifty is enforced; and what will be the probable amount of the rise in the education rate in poor and populous areas where the classes are now all up to the present maximum of sixty?
  Mr. McKINNON WOOD: I am sending the lion, and gallant Member a copy of the Minute to which he refers, so that he may see what its precise effect would be. He will see that it would not be possible to
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  make the estimate he desires. I am not aware of any districts where all the classes are now up to the maximum of sixty.
  Major HOPE: May I ask the right hon. Gentleman if he will accept my statement, that according to a calculation which has been made the rise in the education rate in some of those areas may be 5d. in the £?
  Mr. McKINNON WOOD: I could not accept that figure without examination.

  Early Closing By-Laws (Greenock).
  Mr. GODFREY COLLINSasked the Secretary for Scotland if he has received notice from the Greenock Corporation regarding early closing by-laws, under the Burgh Police Amendment Act; and can he say whether these recommendations will be sanctioned or otherwise?
  Mr. McKINNON WOOD: I have received these by-laws, and I have also received several petitions against them, which I have referred to the town council for their observations. I am not yet in a position to answer the last part of the question.

  Conviction of Boy (Glasgow).
  Mr. MacCALLUM SCOTTasked the Secretary for Scotland whether his attention has been called to the conviction, in the Glasgow Criminal Court, of a boy of 17 of stealing, and his sentence to two months' imprisonment; whether, in view of the youth of the prisoner, he will consider the advisability of altering the sentence; and whether the Borstal system is intended to provide an alternative and reformatory method of punishment in cases such as this?
  Mr. McKINNON WOOD: If my hon. Friend intends to suggest that the boy to whom he refers should be transferred to the Scottish Borstal Institution, this is not in my opinion a case for the exercise of the power of transfer. The minimum Borstal sentence is one year, and the treatment is not intended for short sentence prisoners.

  Crofters, Cunningsburgh.
  Mr. CATHCART WASONasked the Secretary for Scotland if he is aware that applications from Cunningsburgh, Shetland, have been sent in by a number of crofters for extension of Scot-held rights; and when it is likely that the said application will be considered?
  Mr. McKINNON WOOD: The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. The Board of Agriculture for Scotland expect to send a representative to Shetland during December with a view to considering this and other applications.

  Afforestation (Festiniog, Merioneth).
  Mr. HAYDN JONESasked the President of the Board of Agriculture if he will state, in connection with the afforestation of a part of the Crown land situate in the, parish of Festiniog, in the county of Merioneth, and known as Hafod Fawr, and referred to on page 51 of the Eighty-ninth Report of (he Commissioner of Woods, Forests, and Land Revenue, the number of acres planted, the number and varieties of the trees planted, the cost per acre of the planting, including that of fencing and draining, if any, and the subsequent annual sum, if any, expended on the afforestation?
  The PRESIDENT of the BOARD of AGRICULTURE (Mr. Runciman): The number of acres planted is about 150. Over a million trees have been used. They comprised larch (native Japanese and a few American), Scots and silver fir, spruce (Norway and Sitka), Corsican and Swiss pine, Austrian pine (for shelter), and a few Weymouth pine and Douglas fir, alder, ash, and a few hard woods. The total cost per acre down to 31st March, 1909, was about £20, and this includes, besides the expenses of actual planting, those incurred in fencing, draining, clearing, weeding, forming a nursery, and purchasing trees. No new ground has been planted since 31st March, 1909. The sums expended in the three subsequent years, including all maintenance expenses, were as follows:—

  1909–10

  …

  …

  …

  £359

  1910–11

  …

  …

  …

  £297

  1911–12

  …

  …

  …

  £309

  A considerable part of this expenditure was for replanting areas where the trees had failed owing to larch disease and other causes.
  Earl WINTERTON: May I ask the right hon. Gentleman if he is planting the varieties of larch which are peculiarly subject to disease?
  Mr. RUNCIMAN: The planting was done previous to 1909. If the Noble Lord wishes to have a list of the trees, I shall be very pleased to supply him with it.
  An HON. MEMBER: Does £20 an acre include the cost of re-planting?
  Mr. RUNCIMAN: I can only give the cost as £20 an acre down to 1909 as representing the charge for the purposes stated in my answer.

  Fruit Trade (Standardisation).
  Mr. C. BATHURSTasked the President of the Board of Agriculture whether he proposes to take any steps to promote the standardisation of packages containing fruit, and of the numerous varieties now grown in English orchards and fruit plantations, so as to render their produce more marketable?
  Mr. RUNCIMAN: Not at present.
  Mr. C. BATHURSTasked the President of the Board of Agriculture whether he proposes to introduce legislation, similar to that in operation in many of the United States and in the Oversea Dominions, to render compulsory the spraying of orchards and fruit plantations infested with easily communicable insect or fungoid pests, or the destruction by fire of infested fruit trees and bushes, in order to prevent injury and commercial loss to fruit growers clue to the carelessness or ignorance of their neighbours?
  Mr. RUNCIMAN: The Destructive Insects and Pests Acts, 1877 and 1907, already enable the Board to direct the spraying or destruction of fruit trees and bushes for the purpose of preventing the spread of any destructive insect, fungus, or pest.

  House of Commons (Ventilation).
  Captain MURRAYasked the hon. Member for St. George's-in-the-East, as representing the First Commissioner of Works, whether there is any reason why all the windows of the Chamber should not be left open while the House is not sitting?
  Mr. WEDGWOOD BENN (Lord of the Treasury): It is the general practice to keep windows of the Chamber open when the House is not sitting; the number that are opened, and the extent of opening, is governed by the direction and strength of the wind.

  Ryde Police.
  Mr. DOUGLAS HALLasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he will state the reasons why Sergeant Watson, of the Ryde

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  Borough Police, has not been granted the Coronation medal notwithstanding the fact that he was the oldest police constable serving in the Isle of Wight at the time of the Coronation of King George, with thirty years' service with exemplary conduct to his credit, during twenty of which he had served as a sergeant; and whether, in view of these facts, he can see his way to authorise the bestowal of an extra medal on this deserving officer?
  The SECRETARY of STATE for the HOME DEPARTMENT (Mr. McKenna): A certain number of medals was assigned to each police force in proportion to its numbers. In advising His Majesty as to the distribution of these medals to officers other than chief constables, I was guided by the recommendation of their chiefs. In the case of Ryde, Mr. Watson was not the officer selected for recommendation. I am sorry that I cannot now advise the bestowal of any further medals.
  Mr. DOUGLAS HALL: Will the right hon. Gentleman inquire why Sergeant Watson was not selected? It has been a gross miscarriage of ordinary justice.
  Mr. McKENNA: There may be more than one opinion on that point.

  Factory Inspectors (Appointments).
  Mr. GILLasked the Home Secretary if he will state how many of the recent appointments of eleven junior inspectors of factories and two lady inspectors represent additions to the staff and how many the filling up of vacancies; and what is the position in relation to the proposed appointment of seven inspectors' assistants?
  Mr. McKENNA: Three of the junior inspectors and two of the assistants represent additions to the staff, the remaining appointments being for the purpose of filling vacancies.

  Workmen's Compensation Act (Claims).
  Mr. GILLasked the Home Secretary if he can state the amount paid by employers under the Workmen's Compensation Act in the year 1911; the number of individual claims paid in the case of temporary accidents and the average weekly rate of compensation; the number of claims paid in the case of fatal accidents and the average amount paid per case?
  Mr. McKENNA: I am unable to give my hon. Friend the figures for all employments to which the Act applies, but for the seven great groups of industry for which returns are collected—that is, mines, quarries, factories, docks, railways, constructional works, and shipping—the figures are as follows:—

  Total amount, £3,056,404.

  Number of disablement cases, 419,031.

  Average payment, £5 16s.

  Number of fatal cases, 4,021.

  Average payment, £154.

  The average weekly rate in disablement cases is not ascertained, but in cases which were decided by arbitration or in which a memorandum of agreement was registered, the average weekly amount was 12s. 7½d. The compensation statistics for 1911 were issued yesterday.

  Fencing and Cleaning Machinery.
  Mr. GILLasked the Home Secretary if the conferences between factory inspectors, employers, and operatives in the cotton trade on the questions of fencing and cleaning machinery, etc., have been concluded; whether there are any conferences arranged in other trades, and, if so, in which trades; and whether any of these conferences have met?
  Mr. McKENNA: The conferences in the cotton-spinning trade were concluded last March, and a report of the result has been published and issued to the parties concerned. I have directed a copy of the report to be sent to my hon. Friend. A similar series of conferences in respect of the woollen and worsted industries will shortly be concluded at Bradford; and another series, dealing with cotton weaving, was commenced at Blackburn on the 6th instant. Conferences respecting iron foundries will commence at Manchester en 10th December next.

  Coal Mines (Inspectors of Animals).
  Mr. BUTCHERasked the Home Secretary whether, in view of the fact that the Coal Mines Act. 1911, received the Royal Assent on the 16th December, 1911, and came into operation on the 1st July, 1912, and in view of the fact that that Act contained important regulations relating to the care and treatment of horses and other animals in mines, and that Section 109 expressly provided that the Secretary of State should appoint special inspectors for examining into the care and treatment of such horses and other animals and for

  1013
  enforcing the provisions of the Act in relation thereto, and in view of the urgency of the matter, he will state how many special inspectors of horses and other animals in mines have been appointed under the Act and for what districts; and, if no such inspectors have been yet appointed, whether he will state the reason for the delay that has taken place and when the inspectors will be appointed, what are the districts into which the United Kingdom is to be divided for the purpose of such inspection, and how many inspectors are to be appointed for each district?
  Mr. McKENNA: As I explained in reply to questions on the 6th August and the 21st October, a very large number of applications was received for the new appointments of inspector of horses. These applications were referred to the new Board for mining examinations lately established under the Coal Mines Act of last Session. The examination of the numerous applications has necessarily occupied a considerable time, but I understand that the recommendations of the Board will be received shortly. In accordance with the statement made by my right hon. Friend the Financial Secretary to the Treasury on the Report stage of the Bill, one inspector of horses will be appointed for each of the six divisions into which the United Kingdom will eventually be divided for inspection purposes. I may add that consulting veterinary surgeons have already been appointed.
  Mr. BUTCHER: Can the right hon. Gentleman state into what districts the country will be divided?
  Mr. McKENNA: The ordinary six divisions into which the country is divided for the purposes of the Act.
  Mr. BUTCHER: What is the size of the divisions which each inspector will have?
  Mr. McKENNA: The six divisions cover the whole country.
  Mr. BUTCHER: The whole United Kingdom?
  Mr. McKENNA: Yes.
  Viscount HELMSLEY: Does the right hon. Gentleman mean that there will be six inspectors?
  Mr. McKENNA: Yes. That was stated on the Report stage of the Bill. It was announced by my right hon. Friend that
  1014
  the appointments would be of six horse inspectors, and that was approved of by Parliament at the time.
  Mr. RUPERT GWYNNE: What is the meaning of "very shortly"? Does it mean next month?
  Mr. McKENNA: That is not under my control, but I understand from the Board of Examinations that the result of the examinations will be announced shortly.
  Mr. BUTCHER: I beg to give notice that, in view of the unsatisfactory nature of that answer, I will call attention to the matter on the Motion for Adjournment to-night.

  ROYAL NAVY.

    NAVAL CADETS' COLLEGE.
    Mr. DOUGLAS HALLasked the First Lord of the Admiralty why the naval cadets at Osborne College have been without facilities for learning to swim practically ever since the college was started; and if representations have been made to the Admiralty or the Treasury to provide these facilities?
    The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the ADMIRALTY (Dr. Macnamara): I do not think I can add anything to the answer which the First Lord of the Admiralty gave the hon. Gentleman on the 5th instant.

    ASSISTANCE OF BRITISH COLONIES.
    Mr. FRED HALL (Dulwich)asked the First Lord of the Admiralty if he will give particulars of any assistance which has been given or offered by British Colonies in respect of the maintenance of the Navy; whether such assistance is intended to be as far as possible proportionate to the naval expenditure necessary for the security of the Colonies affected; what portion of naval expenditure can be attributed to the position and needs of Ireland; and if, to avoid discouraging the co-operation of Colonies with similar powers of self-government to those proposed to be conferred upon Ireland under the Government of Ireland Bill, the Government will make provision for Ireland to contribute as its quota to the cost of Imperial defence the proceeds of any Import Duties which may be imposed on English goods, or some definite amount, from the beginning of the operation of Home Rule?
    The FIRST LORD of the ADMIRALTY (Mr. Churchill): The information about the contributions of the Dominions may be found in the various official publications, and will at a later date be brought together into a single Parliamentary Paper. The latter part of the question appears to be appropriate to the Debate on the Government of Ireland Bill rather than to a question and answer on Admiralty business.
    Earl WINTERTON: How soon will that Paper be published? Will it be published immediately after the announcement is made in the Dominion House of Commons?
    Mr. CHURCHILL: I am not quite sure. I am looking for an appropriate opportunity of bringing the whole thing together.
    Mr. FRED HALL: Will the right hon. Gentleman answer my question with regard to Ireland, or ought I to direct it to the Chief Secretary?
    Mr. CHURCHILL: The question appears to be an argumentative one. It deals with certain aspects of matters which will follow on the passage of the Government of Ireland Bill. I should have thought that the occasion of the Debate of that measure would have furnished the hon. Gentleman with the opportunity he speaks of.

  Telephone Service.
  EARL Of RONALDSHAYasked the Postmaster-General if Mr. James Morton informed the controller at 144, Queen Victoria Street, on the 24th September last, that he would require his telephone, the rent for which had been paid up to the 30th April, 1913, to be removed from 25, Old Broad Street, to 85, London Wall, as soon after the 30th September as possible; and, if so, will he state how much time elapsed between the date given by Mr. Morton to the controller as the date on which he was moving his office, namely, the 30th September, and the date on which his telephone was connected up at his new premises?
  Mr. HERBERT SAMUEL: Notice of removal was received from Mr. Morton on the 26th September and the work was completed on the 8th instant. The case was complicated by the fact that Mr. Morton was taking over the agreement of another subscriber, and about sixteen days were occupied in the negotiations and in completing the transfer, but
  1016
  there was clearly delay which should have been avoided, and of which I have taken suitable notice.
  MARQUESS of TULLIBARDINEasked whether it is proposed to discontinue the telephone service to Rhum, Muck, Eigg, and Canna; and, if so, why is this course adopted?
  Mr. HERBERT SAMUEL: There is no telephone service to any of the islands named, and there is no telegraph service to Muck. As regards the telegraph service to Eigg, Rhum, and Canna, I would refer the Noble Lord to my answer to the hon. Member for Argyll on 6th March last.
  MARQUESS of TULLIBARDINE: Is the right, hon. Gentleman aware that the result of this is to cut off the inhabitants of Rhum and Canna from the benefit of telephone communication?
  Mr. HERBERT SAMUEL: I do not know to what the Noble Lord is referring.
  EARL of RONALDSHAYasked the Postmaster-General if he has received complaints as to the existing system of payment for telephone calls, under which deposits are demanded from the subscriber at uncertain intervals, and no detailed account of the expenditure of such deposits rendered; has he in contemplation any change in the system; and, if so, can he give the House any information as to the alterations which he intends making?
  Mr. HERBERT SAMUEL: I would refer the Noble Lord to the reply which I gave on the 16th July last to the hon. Member for Penryn and Falmouth. No further change is under contemplation.
  EARL of RONALDSHAYasked the Postmaster-General if his attention has been called to the fact that Messrs. Baker Brothers, of Finchley, were served with a demand note for a deposit of £3 in respect of Telephone No. 259 Finchley, at the end of October last, by the controller, the statement of account accompanying the demand showing a balance of 10s. 4d. due to the Post Office; and to the fact that in response to a request from Messrs. Baker for a detailed statement of account they were furnished by the same authority with a balance-sheet showing a credit, after the payment of the deposit of £3 on 1st November, of £1 17s. 1d. in Messrs. Baker's favour; can he say how the discrepancy in the second account presented by the same authority arose; and will he say what steps he intends taking to obviate errors of this kind in the future?
  Mr. HERBERT SAMUEL: I am informed that the balance of 10s. 4d. due to the Post Office was shown on the account rendered to Messrs. Baker Brothers as outstanding at the end of September, and that the additional calls made during October brought the amount outstanding at the end of that month to £1 2s. 11d. After the payment of the deposit of £3 on 1st November the amount standing to Messrs. Baker Brothers' credit was therefore correctly stated as £1 17s. 1d.
  Mr. FFRENCHasked when something is going to be done in order to make the telephone service between Dublin and Wexford and the intermediate offices available for subscribers?
  Mr. HERBERT SAMUEL: The method of working the Dublin-Wexford line has recently been modified, and I am informed that an improvement in communication has resulted. Steps are being taken to effect further improvement at the earliest possible date.
  Mr. FFRENCH: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the telephone between Wexford and Dublin has been out of order for the past twelve months, and no messages could be sent by subscribers, and will he kindly take the matter in hand in earnest and see that this trunk telephone is made right?
  Mr. HERBERT SAMUEL: Yes. Steps are now being taken. I am aware that the service has been defective. The Department has the matter in hand now.
  Mr. WORTHINGTON-EVANS: Does the right hon. Gentleman think that the telephone service in Ireland is too extravagant? Is this one of the economies which it is hoped to effect under Home Rule?

  Manchester Telegraph Office (Mr. Bradley).
  Mr. CLYNESasked the Postmaster-General whether his attention has been called to fact that a sorting clerk and telegraphist named Bradley, of the Manchester office, who was known to be suffering from telegraphists' cramp, was removed from a rota containing only a small proportion of instrument duty to one with a much larger proportion; whether he is aware that this had the effect of entirely impairing his manipulative ability; and whether, in view of the fact that it is alleged this action was simply taken with a view to bringing Mr. Bradley into a
  1018
  better position for observation, he will review the local endorsements relative to Mr. Bradley's removal?
  Mr. HERBERT SAMUEL: I am fully acquainted with the circumstances regarding Mr. Bradley. The change of rota was made in order that he might gain experience of writing work, and was in his own interests. There was a greater amount of telegraph work on the rota to which Mr. Bradley was moved, but the circuits were not heavier, and there was no reason to think that the work would be beyond his powers. I am satisfied that Mr. Bradley has no ground for complaint as to his treatment, and that no useful purpose would be served by reopening the case. Mr. Bradley was removed entirely from telegraph duties over a year ago.

  National Union of Women's Suffrage Societies.
  Mr. SNOWDEN: I desire to ask why question No. 72 on the Paper was not asked? This question in its original form is a foul slander, and I want to know if the question has been postponed?
  Mr. SPEAKER: The question has been postponed by request.
  Earl WINTERTON: Is it in order to suggest that an hon. Member has asked a question containing a foul slander?
  Mr. SPEAKER: I rose to interrupt the hon. Member.
  MARQUESS of TULLIBARDINE: I only postponed it at the request of the Home Secretary. I am only too willing that it should be investigated.

  Vacation of Seat (Member Holding Contract).
  Lord ROBERT CECILasked the Prime Minister whether he will advise His Majesty to submit the question of whether the hon. Member for Whitechapel has vacated his seat to the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council under Section 4 of 3 and 4 Will. IV., c. 41?
  Mr. SWIFT MacNEILL: Can the course suggested in the question be followed having regard to the fact that proceedings of this House, especially in relation to the qualifications of its Members, are guarded against any interference not authorised by the laws of the country, and that by law and custom of Parliament the

  1019
  Crown cannot take notice of anything done in this House but by the report of the House itself?
  The PRIME MINISTER: No doubt that is a correct statement of constitutional doctrine. In reply to the Noble Lord's question, the House having decided to appoint a Select Committee to inquire into the matter, I do not see my way, at any rate at this stage, to adopt, the suggestion of the Noble Lord.
  Lord ROBERT CECIL: Is the right lion. Gentleman aware that the Section of the Act to which reference is made includes any question whatever, and is not confined at all to questions which affect the Crown; and is he further aware that any Report made by the Privy Council will not be in any way binding upon the House, but merely by way of authority and advice?
  The PRIME MINISTER: I think the Noble Lord is quite right in what he says. He will notice I carefully guarded my answer. I said I do not see my way at this stage.
  Mr. HAROLD SMITH: In the event of a Court of Law finding that the hon. Member has vacated his seat and incurred penalties, will the Committee continue their interesting researches?
  The PRIME MINISTER: I do not like to repeat a hackneyed answer to the question. We do not know yet what a Court of Law may find.
  Mr. A. LYTTELTON: I beg to ask the Attorney-General a question of which I have given him private notice: whether it is a fact that a writ was issued on the 11th instant against the hon. Member for Whitechapel (Sir Stuart Samuel), claiming penalties in respect of votes given in this House which are alleged to be illegal? When did information of the issue of the writ reach His Majesty's Government, and why was such information not disclosed to the House and to the Members required to serve on the Committee before the Motion of Friday, the 22nd instant, was passed?
  The ATTORNEY-GENERAL (Sir Rufus Isaacs): No information of the issue of a writ had reached His Majesty's Government on Friday when we discussed the matter, or has reached His Majesty's Government at the present moment. All that I know of it is that I have seen it in the Press this morning.

ESTABLISHED CHURCH (WALES) BILL.
Mr. BONAR LAW: I desire to ask the Prime Minister whether he still adheres to the statement made by the Chancellor of the Exchequer yesterday, that the business on Friday is to be the first day's business of the Committee stage of the Welsh Disestablishment Bill?
The PRIME MINISTER: We hope to begin the Committee stage on Friday, but I have been looking into the matter, and I quite agree with those who think it would not be a reasonable thing to take on Friday both the Instructions and Clauses 1 and 2, and we do not propose to do so. When we come to the discussion of the Motion for the allocation of time on Thursday, I hope to be able to make provision.

ORDERS OF THE DAY.

  BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
  Lord BALCARRES: Has the right hon. Gentleman any statement to make about the business after eleven o'clock to-morrow evening?
  Mr. BONAR LAW: When will the right hon. Gentleman be in a position to slate to the House what the arrangements will be for Christmas, as I am sure hon. Members are anxious to know what is going to be done?
  The PRIME MINISTER: I hope at the beginning of next week. In answer to the Noble Lord's question, to-morrow we shall take the Money Resolution of the North Killingholme Admiralty Pier.
  Mr. BOOTH: Is any other business to be taken on Friday after the Committee stage of the "Welsh Disestablishment Bill?
  The PRIME MINISTER: No.

  NEW MEMBER SWORN.
  Thomas Taylor, esquire, for the Borough of Bolton.

  NATIONAL ACCOUNTS (EXAMINATION).
  Mr. KEBTY-FLETCHER: I beg to move, "That leave be given to introduce a Bill to extend the powers and duties of the Comptroller and Auditor-General, and to amend the Law relating to the examination of National Accounts."
  The object of this Bill is to establish an examination of public expenditure, and to give extended powers to the Comptroller and Auditor-General acting under a Finance Committee. It may be said that we have already the Public Accounts Committee, but the Finance Committee in dealing with money matters would act in no party spirit, and would deal with them purely as a matter of business. There would be no censure on the Government, and such a Committee would have power to go into the National Accounts. At present we cannot go into a study of the Estimates because, even if we do, we cannot bring the results before the House.
  1038
  If there were a Finance Committee sitting upstairs these matters could be brought before it, and some good could be done in the way of control of expenditure. In county councils, such as the County Council of Lancashire, and in corporations, such as that of Manchester, they have a finance committee; the Dock Board of Liverpool have a finance committee, and other and similar bodies also appoint finance committees. I do not suggest that these committees have any power over policy, but they can see that money is spent to the best advantage. I can understand that permanent officials would be against this change, and that, in certain quarters, the measure may not be popular, but we are tired of listening to lawyers hour after hour with their interminable claptrap. I have said that this will not be a party Committee, and business men amongst Liberal Members opposite would be able to serve upon it, and I believe the result would be that very large sums would be saved to the country.
  4.0 P.M.
  I have gone into this matter carefully, and I estimate that in the first year there would be a saving of a million of money, and similarly in the second, third, fourth, and fifth years, so that by the end of five years, by checking extravagance and by effecting reductions, there would be a total saving of £5,000,000. After that period I cannot say what would be the amount saved. I think that with the appointment of this Committee a great deal of good work would be done for the public welfare. I believe that if business men or chambers of commerce will agree, that large sums could be saved to the country by the adoption of my proposal. I do not think that this should be a party question, and my hon. and gallant Friends behind me need not fear that the appointment of such a Finance Committee would at all interfere with the Naval and Army Estimates. All that the Finance Committee would be able to do would be to see that the money was well expended, and that soldiers, for example, did not go into battle with bayonets of soft steel. Our accounts and contracts would be examined by such a Committee, and this cannot be done at the present time, as we have no machinery to do it; and I think that if we adopt the plan that I submit it would work well, as it has already done in the case of county councils, municipal councils, and other bodies. Official answers given to questions on these business matters do not suffice, because there

  1039
  are so many lawyers and professional politicians who give them; but upstairs, before a Committee, such answers would not be tendered. In future if you should decide to have an aerial fleet, the Committee would be able to find what was the cost of an aerial fleet in France, and we would in this way be enabled to get the benefit of the experience of other countries. At present there is no system of finding out these facts. The War Office have financial advisers, but we find that, in effect, they have as much influence over finance as intelligence officers have over the Intelligence Department. We are the only great nation who adopt our methods. The great nations on the Continent have an Estimates Committee somewhat similar to what I am suggesting. Those great nations like Germany found out that there was great waste, and questions were put by that Estimates Committee to the German officials. If those great Continental nations, who are supposed not to be so astute in business as ourselves, have found by experience that those Committees helped them to save money, then I think it is well worth our while to consider the matter.
  Mr. SPEAKER: I would remind the lion. Member that the Rule under which he is bringing in his Bill limits him to a brief explanatory statement.
  Mr. KEBTY-FLETCHER: I beg to move.
  Sir FREDERICK BANBURY: I would point out that we have already two Committees which deal with the examination of accounts—one is the Public Accounts Committee and the other is the Committee set up last year. I desire to ask you, Sir, whether the Bill is in order. It is a Bill "to extend the powers and duties of the Comptroller and Auditor-General." That part of it is. I venture to say, in order, but it goes on to say, "And to amend the law relating to the examination of national accounts." That, I venture to say, is not in order, since, as far as I know, there is no Statute regulating the examination of national accounts, and this House, I understand, has always held that any Committee which is set up for that purpose is to be set up by this House, and not by Statute. Hon. Members opposite will probably agree with that for the reason that this House does not desire its pro-
  1040
  cedure to be controlled or interfered with by the other House. If there is a Statute it must go to the other House. I would ask whether the second part of the proposal is in order.
  Mr. SPEAKER: The first part "to extend the powers and duties of the Comptroller and Auditor-General" is clearly in order. With regard to the second part, I do not like to commit myself until I have seen the Bill. I do not know on the face of it which is the law relating to the examination of national accounts. I do not gather in what way the hon. Member seeks to amend it, but when I see the Bill, if the hon. Baronet will take objection before the Second Beading, I shall then be in a better position to decide.
  Mr. KING: I venture to offer an uncompromising opposition to this Bill. Its title may be good, but its methods, I am perfectly certain, are very bad. The hon. Baronet the Member for the City has-already pointed out that we have two Committees dealing with our financial relations. I find it very difficult to follow those Committees or to read the Reports they send in. If we have a third Committee dealing with a similar subject, I shall be quite bewildered, and I am perfectly certain if I am not the majority of Members will be. I have listened very attentively to what the hon. Member said in his speech; his remarks were attentively observed on this side, but they were not quite audible or connected. I gather from him, in the first place, that he is dissatisfied, and thinks that we are not getting real full value for the money we spend. If that is the case, I think he should begin by reducing expenditure. That would be a popular method, at any rate with the taxpayers, and certainly on the large items of expenditure it would be popular on this side of the House. That is a matter which certainly, in my opinion, ought to come before any new method of account. The hon. Member said that Germany and other countries had a Finance Committee of the kind which he proposes to set up here. I am a thorough Englishman, and, though I have a great admiration for many foreigners, I do not want to adopt foreign Parliamentary methods, and that is a very good ground for opposing the method he has proposed. The hon. Member also said it would only take about two hours per week for a Committee to put the accounts of this great nation in order.
  Mr. KEBTY-FLETCHER: I did not say that.
  Mr. KING: I am very glad the hon. Member did not, because it did seem to me an absurdity. What he did say was that by this method he would show how to save a million per year, or five millions in five years. In that case, if he had an interview with the Chancellor of the Exchequer, I am sure he would give him a warm and welcome reception. For those very good reasons I offer the strongest
  opposition to this Bill, and if it goes to a Division I hope the majority of the House will support me.
  Question put, pursuant to Standing Order No. 11, "That leave be given to introduce a Bill to extend the powers and duties of the Comptroller and Auditor-General and to amend the law relating to the examination of National Accounts."
  The House divided: 264. Ayes, 158; Noes,.264.

  Division No. 325.]

  AYES.

  [4.10 p.m.

  Agar-Robartes, Hon. T. C. R.

  Fleming, Valentine

  Morrison-Bell, Capt. E. F. (Ashburton)

  Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

  Gardner, Ernest

  Morton, Alpheus Cleophas

  Aitken, Sir William Max

  Gastrell, Major W. Houghton

  Newdegate, F. A.

  Allen, Rt. Hon. Charles P. (Stroud)

  Gibbs, G. A.

  Newman, John R. P.

  Amery, L. C. M. S.

  Goldman, C. S.

  Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield)

  Anson, Rt. Hon. Sir William R.

  Gordon, Hon. John Edward (Brighton)

  O'Neill, Hon. A. E. B. (Antrim, Mid)

  Ashley, Wilfrid W.

  Gordon, John (Londonderry, South)

  Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William

  Baird, J. L.

  Goulding, Edward Alfred

  Palmer, Godfrey Mark

  Balcarres, Lord

  Gretton, John

  Parker, Sir Gilbert (Gravesend)

  Barnes, G. N.

  Gwynne, R. S. (Sussex, Eastbourne)

  Parkes, Ebenezer

  Barnston, Harry

  Hall, D. B. (Isle of Wight)

  Pearce, William (Limehouse)

  Barran, Sir J. (Hawick)

  Hall, Fred (Dulwich)

  Peto, Basil Edward

  Barrie, H. T.

  Hamersley, Alfred St. George

  Pole-Carew, Sir R.

  Bathurst, Charles (Wilts, Wilton)

  Hamilton, Lord C. J. (Kensington, S.)

  Rea, Rt. Hon. Russell (South Shields)

  Beach, Hon. Michael Hugh Hicks

  Hardy, Rt. Hon. Laurence

  Remnant, James Farquharson

  Beckett, Hon. Gervase

  Harrison-Broadley, H. B.

  Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall)

  Benn, Arthur Shirley (Plymouth)

  Helmsley, Viscount

  Roch, Walter F. (Pembroke)

  Bentinck, Lord H. Cavendish-

  Henderson, Major H. (Berks, Abingdon)

  Rose, Sir Charles Day

  Bigland, Alfred

  Hewins, William Albert Samuel

  Rutherford, John (Lancs., Darwen)

  Boles, Lieut.-Col. Dennis Fortescue

  Hill, Sir Clement L.

  Samuel, Sir Harry (Norwood)

  Boscawen, Sir Arthur S. T. Griffith-

  Hills, John Waller

  Sanders, Robert A.

  Boyle, William (Norfolk, Mid)

  Hill-Wood, Samuel

  Sanderson, Lancelot

  Boyton, James

  Hoare, S. J. G.

  Sassoon, Sir Philip

  Bridgeman, W. Clive

  Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield)

  Smith, Harold (Warrington)

  Bryce, J. Annan

  Hope, Major A. (Midlothian)

  Spear, Sir John Ward

  Burn, Colonel C. R.

  Horner, Andrew Long

  Stanley, Hon. G. F. (Preston)

  Butcher, John George

  Hunter, Sir Chas. Rodk.

  Stewart, Gershom

  Campbell, Rt. Hon. J. (Dublin Univ.)

  Ingleby, Holcombe

  Strauss, Arthur (Paddington)

  Campion, W. R.

  Jones, Lelf (Notts, Rushcliffe)

  Sykes, Mark (Hull, Central)

  Carlile, Sir Edward Hildred

  Jowett, Frederick William

  Talbot, Lord Edmund

  Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward H.

  Joynson-Hicks, William

  Terrell, George (Wilts, N.W.)

  Cassel, Felix

  Kimber, Sir Henry

  Thomson, W. Mitchell- (Down, North)

  Castlereagh, Viscount

  Knight, Captain E. A.

  Thynne, Lord Alexander

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Larmor, Sir J.

  Touche, George Alexander

  Cecil, Lord R. (Herts, Hitchin)

  Law, Rt. Hon. A. Bonar (Bootle)

  Tryon, Captain George Clement

  Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J. A. (Worc'r.)

  Lawson, Hon. H. (T. H'mts., Mile End

  Tullibardine, Marquess of

  Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry

  Lewisham, Viscount

  Valentia, Viscount

  Chappie, Dr. William Allen

  Locker-Lampson, G. (Salisbury)

  Walrond, Hon. Lionel

  Clive, Captain Percy Archer

  Locker-Lampson, O. (Ramsey)

  Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid)

  Clyde, James Avon

  Lockwood, Rt. Hon. Lt.-Col. A. R.

  Wheler, Granville C. H.

  Clynes, John R.

  Low, Sir F. (Norwich)

  White, Major G. D. (Lancs., Southport)

  Compton-Rickett, Rt. Hon. Sir J.

  Lowe, Sir F. W. (Birm., Edgbaston)

  Wills, Sir Gilbert

  Cooper, Richard Ashmole

  Lyell, Charles Henry

  Winterton, Earl

  Courthope, George Loyd

  Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. A. (S. Geo., Hon. S.)

  Wolmer, Viscount

  Craig, Charles Curtis (Antrim, S.)

  Lyttelton, Hon. J. G. (Droitwich)

  Worthington-Evans, L.

  Craig, Ernest (Cheshire, Crewe)

  MacCaw, William J. MacGeagh

  Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-

  Craik, Sir Henry

  Maclean, Donald

  Wright, Henry Fitzherbert

  Dalziel, Davison (Brixton)

  M'Laren, Hon. F. W. S. (Lincs., Spalding)

  Yate, Col. C. E.

  Dickson, Rt. Hon. C. Scott

  McNeill, Ronald (Kent, St. Augustine's)

  Younger, Sir George

  Dixon, C. H.

  Magnus, Sir Philip

  Esslemont, George Birnie

  Malcolm, Ian

  Eyres-Monsell, Bolton, M.

  Meysey-Thompson, E. C.

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr.

  Faber, George D. (Clapham)

  Mildmay, Francis Bingham

  Kebty-Fletcher and Mr. Stanler.

  Fetherstonhaugh, Godfrey

  Moore, William

  NOES.

  Abraham, William (Dublin, Harbour)

  Ainsworth, John Stirling

  Banbury, Sir Frederick George

  Acland, Francis Dyke

  Allen, A. A. (Dumbartonshire)

  Baring, Sir Godfrey (Barnstaple)

  Adamson, William

  Arnold, Sydney

  Barlow, Sir John Emmott (Somerset)

  Addison, Dr. C.

  Baker, H. T. (Accrington)

  Beauchamp, Sir Edward

  Agnew, Sir George William

  Balfour, Sir Robert (Lanark)

  Beck, Arthur Cecil

  Benn, W. W. (T. H'mts., St. George)

  Holmes, Daniel Turner

  Power, Patrick Joseph

  Sentham, G. J.

  Holt, Richard Durning

  Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central)

  Bird, Alfred

  Hope, John Deans (Haddington)

  Price, Sir Robert J. (Norfolk, E.)

  Black, Arthur W.

  Howard, Hon. Geoffrey

  Priestley, Sir Arthur (Grantham)

  Boland, John Pius

  Hudson, Walter

  Priestley, Sir W. E. B. (Bradford, E.)

  Bowerman, Charles W.

  Hughes, S. L.

  Pringle, William M. R.

  Boyle, D. (Mayo, N.)

  Illingworth, Percy H.

  Radford, G. H.

  Brace, William

  Jardine, Sir J. (Roxburgh)

  Rattan, Peter Wilson

  Brady, J. P.

  John, Edward Thomas

  Raphael, Sir Herbert H.

  Brocklehurst, William B.

  Jones, Rt. Hon. Sir D. Brynmor (Sw'nsea)

  Rea, Walter Russell (Scarborough)

  Burke, E. Haviland-

  Jones, Edgar (Merthyr Tydvil)

  Reddy, Michael

  Burns, Rt. Hon. John

  Jones, H. Haydn (Merioneth)

  Redmond, John E. (Waterford)

  Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas

  Jones, J. Towyn (Carmarthen, East)

  Redmond, William (Clare)

  Byles, Sir William Pollard

  Jones, William (Carnarvonshire)

  Redmond, William Archer (Tyrone, E.)

  Carr-Gomm, H. W.

  Jones, W. S. Glyn- (T. H'mts, Stepney)

  Rendall, Athelstan

  Cawley, Sir Frederick (Prestwich)

  Joyce, Michael

  Richardson, Thomas (Whitehaven)

  Cawley, Harold T. (Heywood)

  Keating, M.

  Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)

  Clancy, John Joseph

  Kellaway, Frederick George

  Roberts, Sir J. H. (Denbighs)

  Clough, William

  Kennedy, Vincent Paul

  Robertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradford)

  Collins, G. P. (Greenock)

  Kilbride, Denis

  Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside)

  Condon, Thomas Joseph

  Lambert, Rt. Hon. G. (Devon, S. Molton)

  Robinson, Sidney

  Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.

  Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade)

  Roche, Augustine (Louth)

  Cotton, William Francis

  Lardner, James Carrlge Rushe

  Roche, John (Galway, E.)

  Crawshay-Williams, Eliot

  Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, West)

  Roe, Sir Thomas

  Crooks, William

  Levy, Sir Maurice

  Rowlands, James

  Crumley, Patrick

  Lough, Rt. Hon. Thomas

  Rowntree, Arnold

  Cullinan, J.

  Lundon, T.

  Russell, Rt. Hon. Thomas W.

  Davies, Ellis William (Eifion)

  Lynch, A. A.

  Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees)

  Davies, Timothy (Lincs., Louth)

  Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester)

  Scanlan, Thomas

  Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.)

  Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk Burghs)

  Scott, A. MacCallum (Glas., Bridgeton)

  Davies, M. Vaughan- (Cardigan)

  McGhee, Richard

  Seely, Col. Rt. Hon. J. E. B.

  De Forest, Baron

  MacNeill, J. G. Swift (Donegal, South)

  Sheehy, David

  Delany, William

  Macpherson, James Ian

  Sherwell, Arthur James

  Denman, Hon. R. D.

  MacVeagh, Jeremiah

  Simon, Sir John Allsebrook

  Devlin, Joseph

  M'Callum, Sir John M.

  Smith, Albert (Lancs., Clitheroe)

  Dickinson, W. H.

  McKenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald

  Smith, H. B. L. (Northampton)

  Donelan, Captain A.

  M'Laren, Hon. H. D. (Leics.)

  Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.)

  Doris, W.

  M'Micking, Major Gilbert

  Snowden, P.

  Doughty, Sir George

  Marks, Sir George Croydon

  Soames, Arthur Wellesley

  Duffy, William J.

  Meagher, Michael

  Spicer, Rt. Hon. Sir Albert

  Duncan, J. Hastings (Yorks, Otley)

  Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.)

  Strauss, Edward A. (Southwark, W.)

  Edwards, Clement (Glamorgan, E.)

  Menzies, Sir Walter

  Sutherland, J. E.

  Edwards, Sir Francis (Radnor)

  Middlemore, John Throgmorton

  Sutton, John E.

  Elverston, Sir Harold

  Millar, James Duncan

  Taylor, John W. (Durham)

  Esmonde, Dr. John (Tipperary, N.)

  Molloy, Michael

  Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)

  Esmonde, Sir Thomas (Wexford, N.)

  Mond, Sir Alfred M.

  Taylor, Thomas (Bolton)

  Essex, Richard Walter

  Money, L. G. Chiozza

  Tennant, Harold John

  Falconer, J.

  Mooney, J. J.

  Thomas, James Henry

  Farrell, James Patrick

  Morgan, George Hay

  Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton)

  Fenwick, Rt. Hon. Charles

  Morrell, Philip

  Thorne, William (West Ham)

  Ffrench, Peter

  Morison, Hector

  Toulmin, Sir George

  Fitzgibbon, John

  Muldoon, John

  Trevelyan, Charles Philips

  Flavin, Michael Joseph

  Munro-Ferguson, Rt. Hon. R. C.

  Ure, Rt. Hon. Alexander

  Gill, A. H.

  Murray, Captain Hon. A. C.

  Verney, Sir Harry

  Ginnell, L.

  Nannetti, Joseph P.

  Wadsworth, J.

  Gladstone, W. G. C.

  Needham, Christopher T.

  Walsh, Stephen (Lancs., Ince)

  Glanville, H. J.

  Neilson, Francis

  Walton, Sir Joseph

  Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford

  Nolan, Joseph

  Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent)

  Greenwood, Granville G. (Peterborough)

  Norton, Captain Cecil W.

  Wardle, George J.

  Greenwood, Hamar (Sunderland)

  Nugent, Sir Walter Richard

  Waring, Walter

  Griffith, Ellis J.

  O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

  Warner, Sir Thomas Courtenay

  Guest, Hon. Frederick E. (Dorset, E.)

  O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)

  Wason, Rt. Hon. E. (Clackmannan)

  Gulland, John William

  O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)

  Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney)

  Gwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway)

  O'Doherty, Philip

  Webb, H.

  Hackett, John

  O'Donnell, Thomas

  White, J. Dundas (Glasgow, Tradeston)

  Hall, Frederick (Normanton)

  O'Dowd, John

  White, Patrick (Meath, North)

  Hancock, J. G.

  O'Grady, James

  Whitehouse, John Howard

  Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose)

  O'Kelly, Edward P. (Wicklow, W.)

  Whittaker, Rt. Hon. Sir Thomas f.

  Harmsworth, R. L. (Caithness-shire)

  O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N.)

  Whyte, A. F.

  Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, W.)

  O'Malley, William

  Wiles, Thomas

  Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N.E.)

  O'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, S.)

  Wilkie, Alexander

  Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth)

  O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

  Williams, J. (Glamorgan)

  Havelock-Allan, Sir Henry

  O'Shee, James John

  Williams, Llewelyn (Carmarthen)

  Hayden, John Patrick

  O'Sullivan, Timothy

  Williamson, Sir A.

  Hayward, Evan

  Outhwaite, R. L.

  Wilson, Hon. G. G. (Hull, W.)

  Hazieton, Richard (Galway, N.)

  Parker, James (Halifax)

  Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)

  Helme, Sir Norval Watson

  Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek)

  Winfrey, Richard

  Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

  Pearson, Hon. Weetman H. M.

  Wood, Rt. Hon. T. McKinnon (Glas.)

  Henderson, J. M. (Aberdeen, W)

  Pease, Rt. Hon. Joseph A. (Rotherham)

  Young, Samuel (Cavan, E.)

  Henry, Sir Charles

  Philipps, Col. Ivor (Southampton)

  Young, William (Perth, East)

  Higham, John Sharp

  Phillips, John (Longford, S.)

  Yoxall, Sir James Henry

  Hinds, John

  Pirie, Duncan V.

  Hodge, John

  Pointer, Joseph

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr.

  Hogge, James Myles

  Pollard, Sir George H.

  King and Mr. Booth.

  Motion made and Question, "That leave be given to bring in a Bill to amend the Police Acts, 1839 to 1909" [Sir Charles Schwann]—put, and agreed to.

  POLICE ACTS AMENDMENT.
  Bill ordered to be brought in by Sir Charles Schwann, Sir James Fortescue Flannery, Sir William Priestley, Mr. Arthur Henderson, Mr. Remnant, and Mr. Wiles. Presented accordingly, and read the first time; to be read a second time upon Tuesday next, and to be printed.
  GOVERNMENT OF IRELAND BILL.
  Considered in Committee.
  GOVERNMENT OF IRELAND BILL.
    NINETEENTH ALLOTTED DAY.— [Progress. 25th November.]
    [Mr. WHITLEY in the Chair.]
    FINANCE.

      CLAUSE 15.—(Powers of Irish Parliament with respect to Taxation.)
      (1) The Irish Parliament shall have power to vary (either by way of addition, reduction, or discontinuance) any Imperial tax so far as respects the levy of that tax in Ireland, and to impose in Ireland any independent tax not being in the opinion of the Joint Exchequer Board substantially the same in character as an Imperial tax, subject to the following limitations:—

      (a) The Irish Parliament shall not have power to impose or charge a Customs Duty, whether an Import or an Export Duty, on any article unless that article is for the time being liable to a Customs Duty levied as an Imperial tax; and

      (b) The benefit to accrue to the Irish Exchequer from any addition to any Customs Duty levied as an Imperial tax (other than a Customs Duty on beer or spirits), or to any duty of Income Tax so levied, or to any Death Duty so levied, shall be limited as in this Act provided; and

      (c) The power of the Irish Parliament to vary an Imperial tax shall not be exercised with respect to the Stamp Duties mentioned in the Second Schedule to this Act; and

      (d) The Irish Parliament shall not, in the exercise of their powers of taxation under this provision, make any variation of Customs or Excise Duties the effect of which will be to
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      cause the Customs Duty on any article of a class produced, prepared, or manufactured in Ireland, to exceed the Excise Duty by more than an amount reasonably sufficient to cover any expenses due to Excise restrictions;

      and the power of the Irish Parliament to make laws includes a power to make laws for the purpose of giving effect to the powers of taxation under this provision—
      (2) For the purposes of this Act—?

      (a) The expression "Imperial tax" means any tax charged for the time being in Ireland under the authority of the Parliament of the United Kingdom, and includes a tax which has been discontinued under the powers given by this Section to the Irish Parliament, but which would have been so charged but for the discontinuance;

      (b) The expression "Irish tax" means any tax charged under the authority of the Irish Parliament either by way of an addition to an Imperial tax or as an independent tax.

      The CHAIRMAN: The first Amendment, as I stated yesterday, will be that standing in the name of the hon. Member for South Birmingham (Mr. Amery), to insert the words "other than Customs or Excise Duties," but after the full discussion we had yesterday, I do not think that hon. Members should go over the same ground. The next Amendment will be that in the name of the hon. Member for St. Pancras (Mr. Cassel), proposing to leave out the power to levy new taxes in Ireland. The next, if we have time, will be that standing in the name of the hon. Member for Hereford (Mr. Hewins) to insert the words: "The Irish Parliament shall not have power to differentiate or discriminate in levying taxes so as to give bounties on the production or export of goods."
      Mr. AMERY: I beg to move in Subsection (1) after the word "tax" ["any Imperial tax"], to insert the words "other than Customs or Excise Duties."
      We consider this Amendment, not only as one justified in itself, but as a test of the sincerity of Members opposite who have declared themselves in favour of a Federal Constitution. It has been admitted that every Federal Constitution in the world clearly reserves these powers to the Federal authority. That is not a mere coincidence, or a mere convention. I

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      suggest that it springs necessarily from the whole nature of Federal government. The difficulty of Federal government lies in reconciling the natural desire of a local government for greater powers with the need for national union, and the way in which that difficulty has always been got over is by making the industrial and economic interests of the citizens coincide, not with the State or Province, but with the nation as a whole. By abolishing provincial boundaries in those matters which most concern the life of the ordinary citizen, you make him feel that the nation is the real Federal unit, and that the Province or State is a mere administrative convenience for certain purposes. That is clear when you are dealing with an attempt to bring about greater union among separate States; it is even more clear when you are breaking up an existing union at the instigation of a party who have always avowedly aimed, not at Federalism, but at Separatism. I am ready to believe that hon. Members opposite do sincerely desire a Federal scheme, but surely they are alive to the fact that many of the Members behind me, and still more their supporters in Ireland, do not desire a Federal scheme, and are bound to make efforts to break down a Federal system in favour of a Separatist system.
      One might not be surprised if hon. Members in their eagerness to prevent Separatism and to make Federalism really work were prepared to abandon their Free Trade principles and accept a protective tariff for the United Kingdom, just as the New South Wales Free Traders accepted a Protectionist tariff in Australia; but nothing is more surprising than to find hon. Members opposite accepting the division of the United Kingdom in this most important matter. They protested enough about it in words. We even found the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Trade, when speaking of his unreflecting Home Rule Friends demanding that Ireland should have power to fix Customs and Excise, describing them as having no State left at all. After all these protests comes a petty little Amendment from the Postmaster-General, which would not remove a single objection of a sincere federalist. The Bill remains not a whit less objectionable, and a great deal more ridiculous, but straightway the whole opposition collapses. I am not going over the ground which has been covered in previous Debates. I would point out that that Amendment, as
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      far as it goes, is bound to be only temporary. It is certain to be swept away when the financial revision comes. The hon. and learned Member for Waterford made it perfectly clear in his speech that he regarded it as a trivial Amendment, because there was no immediate prospect of Ireland wishing or being able to reduce taxation in respect of Customs Duties. He also made it perfectly clear that he hoped to have a free hand when the financial revision came. But whether it be temporary or permanent, you still have left in the Bill a barrier between this country and Ireland a barrier to trade and an instrument for Protection in the hands of the Irish Government. It will be a hindrance and inconvenience; and it will cause to be imposed upon every man who wishes to send goods from England to Ireland an expense which is not imposed on people sending goods from Ireland to England. It is only a question of the Customs authorities making their rules sufficiently vexatious and stringent to make that a very serious cause of expense.
      We may be told that the Customs officers will be under the control of the United Kingdom. How do we know that? How do we know that under Clause 40 they will not by some arrangement be transferred? If they are not transferred let me put the position. As the Leader of the Opposition has shown, you have the danger of smuggling. If any smuggling successfully takes place, do you not think that you will have speech after speech and Motion after Motion in the Irish House of Commons protesting against the laxity of the Imperial Customs officers in Ireland, suggesting that they are in the pay of British industries, and insisting upon either screwing up the Imperial Customs officers in Ireland to the point which they desire or else breaking down the system altogether? "There is a further point, which I would just mention again, for no attempt has been made on the part of the right hon. Gentleman opposite to answer it. I will deal with it in a single concrete instance. If you do not give this power to change the Customs and Excise to the Irish Government, its powers to give a bounty would be limited by its resources. It might have £40,000 or £50,000 that it was willing to spend on tobacco, and this sum, while it might give valuable encouragement to tobacco growing as an experiment, would not amount to substantial and continuous perfection. But now take the powers you are conferring under this

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      Bill. Let me suppose that the Irish Government raises the Customs and Excise on tobacco by 6d. in the £—that is to say, from 3s. 8d. to 4s. 2d. on the raw leaf. You would at once get an increase of revenue of something approximating to £200,000. On this the Irish Government, under the Ten per Cent. Rule, can keep £160,000. Take the £40,000 or £50,000 that that Government is prepared to spend already with the additional £160,000, and you have enough money to give a bounty of 1s. in the £ on 4,000,000 lbs. of tobacco —more than half the tobacco consumed in Ireland.
      What is the position of the Irish tobacco grower in that? He pays nominally an Excise Duty of 4s. 2d., and he receives the bounty of 1s. He does, in effect, pay an Excise Duty of 3s. 2d., while his English or foreign competitor pays a Customs Duty of 4s. 2d. He gets direct protection, without any cost to the Irish Government, or necessarily any cost to the Irish consumer, of Is. in the £. There is a further point. Supposing the Irish manufacturer, producing tobacco which enjoys a 1s. per lb. preference over his English and foreign competitors, sends his tobacco to England. That tobacco has, in fact, only paid an Excise Duty of 3s. 2d., but it is supposed to have paid 4s. 2d., and therefore it is going to get a bigger drawback. It comes to this country and gets a drawback of 6d. So that actually what is paid upon Irish tobacco coming to England is 2s. 8d., as against 3s. 8d. paid by any other tobacco coming into this country. Surely that is sufficient to disorganise the tobacco trade of this country, and to give real and effective protection to Irish tobacco! How are you going to meet that? Is there any way of meeting that condition of things except by imposing a duty in this country against this bounty-fed Irish tobacco? The right hon. Gentleman the Postmaster-General has already suggested that. Yet what is the point of the Amendment to prevent in Ireland the reduction of the Customs and Excise? The whole point of that Amendment is to prevent the necessity for putting up a tariff barrier in Great Britain. Here, however, by the Bill as you have it, you inevitably create conditions under which you are bound very soon to put up that tariff barrier! Once you give Ireland power over the Customs and Excise, you give quite a different meaning to the power to give bounties, to the power to establish a State monopoly, and to the power to establish trade agents.
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      There is nothing harmful in a province having trade agents, if it is a province. The Canadian provinces have trade agents in this country, and the Australian States have trade agents in this country. Those trade agents know that their powers are limited, because they cannot speak for the Governments which are authorised to make Customs treaties; but the moment you give the Irish Government the power to vary the Customs and Excise, you turn what would otherwise be trade agents into quasi-diplomatic agents; into agents who, in fact if not in theory, will have the power to conduct commercial treaties, and deal with all commercial treaties indirectly involved. You may say it will be rather a one-sided Customs bargain if Ireland can only raise duties and not lower them. But, of course, promises not to raise duties can have their weight in the Customs bargain.
      Even so, there is the further point in regard to the Excise which has not been dealt with in this Debate at all. All the restrictions, by which it is intended to safeguard, to patch and plug up the leaky vessel of Free Trade, are in regard to Customs or to Excise Duties where Customs Duties are imposed. There is no provision in this Bill whatever to prevent the Irish Government imposing any sort of Excise at any rates, or with any degree of variation, on articles not subject to Customs Duties, Nothing in the Bill, so far as I can see, would prevent the Irish Government proposing an Excise on the sale of woollen goods, and of imposing it at one rate on the sale of English goods and another rate on the sale of Irish goods. That is the whole case. It is leaking. So far from having a few small gaps that may be filled, its gaps are such that you will only fill them up on one condition, and that is to reserve the power of dealing with Customs and Excise and the regulation of commerce in any shape or form to the United Kingdom. That is the whole object of this Amendment. I could have wished, Mr. Whitley, that you had allowed this Amendment on Clause 2 in order to make it quite clear that it was a fundamental part of the new constitutional system being introduced by the right hon. Gentleman, that he would never, in any circumstances, contemplate depriving the United Kingdom of these powers, which are essential, if it is to remain a United Kingdom; for even if we pass this, under this Clause there is always the suggestion latent that it may be revised.

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      We may be opposed to the idea of a federal United Kingdom—and for my part I do not believe there is room for such a federal system—but at any rate I do regard it as infinitely preferable to a system of separatism. Hon Members opposite do, I believe, sincerely wish it, and if they do wish it, if they do not wish to damage the cause of federalism irretrievably, I submit they are in honour and conscience bound to vote for this Amendment.
      The POSTMASTER-GENERAL (Mr. Herbert Samuel): I shall strictly observe your recommendation, Mr. Whitley, that seeing this matter has been very largely discussed, the speeches should be brief, and I shall endeavour as far as possible not to cover the ground which has been previously traversed. Therefore it is no disrespect to the hon. Gentleman who has just spoken if I deal with what he has said as shortly as I can. His first point was that our proposal with regard to Customs and Excise runs counter to the federal idea, and that if there are any hon. Members on this side of the House who hold strongly the federal idea, whose support of Home Rule is founded on that principle, that they must necessarily vote on this occasion for this Amendment. The hon. Member has spoken to-day as he has spoken previously, and as hon. Members have spoken on many occasions, as if what we were really proposing was to give to the Irish Government complete control of her tariff policy; that we are establishing a system of fiscal autonomy, and that we are enabling Ireland to do what the States of Australia were able to do towards one another before the federation of their Commonwealth. The movement of federation in that and other parts of the world, in so far as it touches this question of Customs, was, of course, as in every case, mainly directed to the abolition of the powers of the particular States to tax the goods of their neighbours—neighbours speaking the same language, usually of the same or kindred races—for the protection of their native industries, with the result that there was constant friction in the various communities which should have formed an autonomous whole. They became under these circumstances frequently irritated with one another and possibly hostile.
      It is necessary to remind the Committee once more—probably this may be the last opportunity of doing so—what precisely
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      are the powers that we are conferring in this regard. We are conferring no powers to tax any article which is not already included in our tariff; no power to tax British goods for the protection of Irish goods; no power to discriminate between goods according to their origin and to levy a higher tax on goods coming from one part of the world than on goods coming from another pan of the world. Indeed, we have introduced an Amendment to the effect that they are to have no power to reduce the Customs Duty on goods of any kind at all. The hon. Gentleman called this a petty little Amendment, which does not by any means alter or diminish the inherent viciousness of our system, or make it in any degree less acceptable. A petty little Amendment! Yes, but we were told by the right hon and learned Gentleman the Member for Trinity College, that what is now described as "a petty little Amendment" was a revolution in the Bill. We were told we are changing the Bill in a vital principle which requires the whole reconsideration of our financial proposals. It is not necessary to dwell further on that inconsistency in regard to the powers conferred upon the Irish Government. These, in relation to Customs, are nothing more than that they may simply, with regard to the Beer and Spirits Customs Duty, increase them at their will; but in regard to tea, sugar, and other similar Customs Duties, they may increase them with the limit that they can have no more benefit than 10 per cent, on the increased yield of the taxes. With regard to the actual provisions, I think that any stranger listening to the hon. Gentleman's speech, who had not previously followed his controversy, would be amazed to find, after hearing all that he had to say, that we are not giving fiscal autonomy to Ireland, but are giving the power we are for purely revenue purposes, limited to the receipt of the additional revenue of 10 per cent, of the Customs Duties, except beer and spirits.
      I was interested to hear the hon. Gentleman, as an active leader of the Tariff Reform movement, discoursing so cogently on the inconvenience of Protection. When he gives an illustration he gives one the impression that he is living in an unreal world. Out of his own very nimble and ingenious brain he spins cobwebs which he attaches to branches of our tree, and then he points to the flimsiness of his own cobwebs as a proof to the weakness of our tree! The other day he grave as a really serious illustration what might occur

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      under this Bill if this country was engaged in a war for the sake of a Lancashire cotton industry. He suggested that that war was made possible because in this House there were only forty-two Irish Members, whereas if there had been sixty-five Irish Members it would not have been possible. If additional taxation was levied upon Ireland for that war, he suggested that the Irish people would have a cause of complaint. To-day we have had similarly fantastical illustrations. The hon. Member to-day has suggested that the Irish Government would impose a stiff duty upon foreign tobacco going into Ireland, and use this to give a bounty to the Irish tobacco growers in order practically to compel the Irish people, if I may say so, to consume their own smoke—that is to say, to smoke tobacco grown on their own soil. It is forgotten that in all probability the Irish smoker will have something to say to this. Excellent as Irish tobacco may be in some circumstances—in many cases, no doubt—for the Irish Parliament seriously and deliberately to raise the price of all foreign tobaccos going into Ireland would mean that the Irish consumer would undoubtedly have something to say to his representative. Then he went on to give us another illustration of the Irish Parliament calmly sitting down, and in the fullness of its wisdom imposing an Excise Duty on the sale of woollen goods, an Excise Duty upon the clothes of the people at a higher rate if the clothes of the people were made in Yorkshire, and at a lower rate if they were made in some parts of Ireland. Is it really conceivable that an Irish Parliament would deliberately set to work to raise the cost of clothing on the poorest class of people in Ireland in that way?
      Mr. AMERY: It is perfectly possible to put 1d. per yard duty on Irish woollens, and 2s. per yard on English woollens, and other countries have done the same.
      Mr. HERBERT SAMUEL: I think it certainly would be ultra vires to put a higher Excise Duty than a Customs Duty.
      Mr. AMERY: Not Customs.
      Mr. HERBERT SAMUEL: How would it be possible to put an Excise Duty on commodities according to their place of origin? You would want to have the Customs officer going round from one shop to another, saying, "Here is a piece of English goods, which must be taxed at the higher rate; and here is a piece of
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      Irish goods, which must get the benefit of the lower rate."
      Mr. AMERY: The right hon. Gentleman, the Member for West Islington pointed out that you must have a Customs in order to-trace all goods coming into Ireland, and it would be perfectly easy to trace English goods to the wholesale shops.
      Mr. HERBERT SAMUEL: I leave it to the Committee to decide whether or not my description of the hon. Gentleman's arguments as fantastic is not perfectly justified. On the hon. Member's supposition I could prove that the present state of things in Ireland is grossly unjust and intolerable, and must lead to inevitable friction between the two countries. The party opposite did an admirable piece of work in this House by setting up the Congested Districts Board, which has set itself in a very practical fashion to the development of the fishing industry in Ireland. I can imagine the hon. Gentleman, if we proposed such a scheme, saying, "You are-proposing to give British money to encourage Irish fishermen to make harbours and to provide additional expenses for fishing boats, and then you allow them to send their fish over here to undersell English fishermen." That is the state of things undoubtedly existing, and do hon. Members suppose that we ought to put a contravailing duty on Irish fish for the protection for the North or West fishermen. So much for the hon. Gentleman's concrete illustrations. His speeches are full of them. I do not think any one of his illustrations carries the smallest conviction to any hon. Member upon whatever side of the House he sits. They are drawn from an unreal world and not the world of practical politics, and I venture-to say that by the exercise of an ordinary modicum of common sense the Irish Parliament and the Imperial Parliament will-make good progress under the scheme such as we propose.
      Mr. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN: The right hon. Gentleman twitted my right hon. Friend upon spinning webs out of his ingenious fancy. I wonder where the right hon. Gentleman gets his conception as to the probability of Irish policy when the Irish Parliament is assembled! What groundwork is there in his view for supposing that an Irish Parliament, composed in the main of Nationalist Members, or any Irish Parliament, will hold the same pedantic views about the fiscal question which are the peculiar property of right hon. Gentlemen opposite? If there is one

      1055
      thing more certain than another it is that it has always been the desire of the Nationalists of Ireland and the supporters of Home Rule to be able to protect and develop Irish industries. That is one of the principles they put most prominently forward in their speeches in Ireland in order to induce other Irishmen to become Home Rulers. We know that even English Free Traders, like the right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Islington, frequently pointed to the Free Trade policy of this House as being responsible for disastrous consequences to Ireland. My hon. Friend has shown, and has taken a natural illustration to show, that by the power you give in the words to which he objects—that is the power to vary Customs and Excise, and to give bounties—you put it in the power of the Irish Parliament to establish an efficient system of protection, and the only question is do you want to do it, and, if you want to do it, why not say so? Do not pretend you do not want to do it or that you are not doing it when it is proved to you over and over again and you are unable to disprove that the powers you give under your Bill are quite sufficient to enable the Irish Parliament to do it if they wish to.
      Mr. MUNRO-FERGUSON: I regret I am unable to find in the speech of the right hon. Gentleman the Postmaster-General any argument which shows that this provision in the Bill is drawn from the world of practical politics, because there is an absence of any precedent for this provision either in dealing with this particular question of Home Rule for Ireland or dealing with any other part of the Empire. I do not think the Government have established the need for this provision. The Postmaster-General has said that to increase the Transferred Sum would not allow sufficient elasticity, but the whole sum that would be required to make good this provision, even if it lacked elasticity, would not be a large sum, and I, for one, am not prepared to oppose this power to vary Customs, which I do oppose, for reasons with which I need not trouble the House again, unless I supported at the same time the principle of adding to the Transferred Sum the amount which this provision for the varying of Customs would give if
      ascertained. The argument that you cannot add to the Transferred Sum really cannot carry any weight when the sum involved is so small.
      Mr. HERBERT SAMUEL: It is not small.
      Mr. MUNRO-FERGUSON: It is comparatively small. One could estimate, at any rate, what sum the power to vary Customs would bring in to the Irish Government, and I think it cannot amount to a very large sum.
      Mr. HERBERT SAMUEL: I went into this the other day, and I think the right hon. Gentleman was not in his place. I pointed out that the yield of increased Customs Duty might amount to a very considerable sum. Would the right hon. Gentleman be willing to add to the surplus that is to be handed over to the Irish Parliament by the British taxpayer, amounting to nearly three-quarters of a million?
      Mr. MUNRO-FERGUSON: I doubt whether the sum will be three-quarters of a million, but I would sooner pay this three-quarters of a million than vote the power of varying Customs and Excise, which is prejudicial to the whole scheme of devolution. I do not know whether the right hon. Gentleman regards previous Home Rule Bills as being elastic because they did not contain these powers of varying Customs. There was no such provision before, and I think where the genius of the right hon. Gentleman's predecessors succeeded, perhaps he might succeed also. In my opinion there has been no argument to show any justification for giving these powers, instead of providing Ireland with adequate money to work successfully under Home Rule. I am positive of this, that the right hon. Gentleman will find out later on that the country would rather make a subsidy, even to the extent of three-quarters of a million than allow this impossible system to be adopted to the prejudice of any further system of devolution.
      Question put, "That those words be there inserted."
      The Committee divided: Ayes, 167; Noes, 303.

      Division No. 326.]

      AYES.

      [5.0 p.m.

      Agar-Robartes, Hon. T. C. R.

      Ashley, Wilfrid

      Banbury, Sir Frederick George

      Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

      Astor, Waldorf

      Barnston, Harry

      Aitken, Sir William Max

      Baird, John Lawrence

      Barrie, H. T.

      Anson, Rt. Hon. Sir William R.

      Balcarres, Lord

      Bathurst, Charles (Wilts, Wilton)

      Beach, Hon. Michael Hugh Hicks

      Gordon, Hon. John Edward (Brighton)

      Newdegate, F. A.

      Beckett, Hon. Gervase

      Goulding, Edward Alfred

      Newman, John R. P.

      Benn, Arthur Shirley (Plymouth)

      Gwynne, R. S. (Sussex, Eastbourne)

      Newton, Harry Kottingham

      Bird, Alfred

      Hall, D. B. (Isle of Wight)

      Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield)

      Boles, Lieut.-Col. Dennis Fortescue

      Hall, Fred (Dulwich)

      O'Neill, Hon. A. E. B. (Antrim, Mid)

      Boscawen, Sir Arthur S. T. Griffith-

      Hamersley, Alfred St. George

      Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William

      Boyle, William (Norfolk, Mid)

      Hamilton, Lord C. J. (Kensington, S.)

      Parker, Sir Gilbert (Gravesend)

      Boyton, James

      Hamilton, Marquess of (Londonderry)

      Parkes, Ebenezer

      Bridgeman, William Clive

      Hardy, Rt. Hon. Laurence

      Peto, Basil Edward

      Bull, Sir William James

      Harrison-Broadley, H, B,

      Pole-Carew, Sir R.

      Burdett-Coutts, William

      Helmsley, Viscount

      Rawson, Colonel Richard H.

      Burn, Colonel C. R.

      Henderson, Major H. (Berkshire)

      Remnant, James Farquharson

      Butcher, John George

      Herbert, Hon. A. (Somerset, S.)

      Ronaldshay, Earl of

      Campbell, Rt. Hon. J. (Dublin Univ)

      Hewins, William Albert Samuel

      Rutherford, John (Lancs., Darwen)

      Campion, W. R.

      Hickman, Colonel Thomas E.

      Samuel, Sir Harry (Norwood)

      Carlile, Sir Edward Hildred

      Hill, Sir Clement L.

      Sanders, Robert A.

      Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward H.

      Hills, John Waller

      Sanderson, Lancelot

      Cassel, Felix

      Hoare, Samuel John Gurney

      Sassoon, Sir Philip

      Castiereagh, Viscount

      Hohler, Gerald Fitzroy

      Smith, Harold (Warrington)

      Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

      Hope, Harry (Bute)

      Spear, Sir John Ward

      Cecil, Lord Hugh (Oxford Univ.)

      Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield)

      Stanier, Beville

      Cecil, Lord R. (Herts, Hitchin)

      Hope, Major J. A. (Midlothian)

      Stanley, Hon. G. F. (Preston)

      Chaloner, Col. R. G. W.

      Horner, Andrew Long

      Stewart, Gershom

      Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J. A. (Worc'r.)

      Hume-Williams, William Ellis

      Strauss, Arthur (Paddington, North)

      Chambers, James

      Hunt, Rowland

      Swift, Rigby

      Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry

      Ingleby, Holcombe

      Sykes, Alan John (Chcs., Knutsford)

      Clay, Captain H. H. Spender

      Joynson-Hicks, William

      Sykes, Mark (Hull, Central)

      Clive, Captain Percy Archer

      Kebty-Fletcher, J. R.

      Talbot, Lord Edmund

      Clyde, James Avon

      Kerr-Smiley, Peter Kerr

      Terrell, Henry (Gloucester)

      Cooper, Richard Ashmole

      Kimber, Sir Henry

      Thomson, W. Mitchell- (Down, N.)

      Courthope, George Loyd

      Knight, Captain E. A.

      Tobin, Alfred Aspinall

      Craig, Charles Curtis (Antrim, S.)

      Lane-Fox, G. R.

      Touche, George Alexander

      Craig, Ernest (Cheshire, Crewe)

      Larmor, Sir J.

      Tryon, Captain George Clement

      Craig, Norman (Kent, Thanet)

      Law, Rt. Hon. A. Bonar (Bootle)

      Tullibardine, Marquess of

      Craik, Sir Henry

      Lawson, Hon. H. (T. H'mts., Mile End)

      Valentia, Viscount

      Crichton-Stuart, Lord Ninian

      Lewisham, Viscount

      Walrond, Hon. Lionel

      Croft, Henry Page

      Locker-Lampson, G. (Salisbury)

      Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid)

      Dalziel, Davison (Brixton)

      Lockwood, Rt. Hon. Lt.-Col. A. R.

      Wheler, Granville C. H.

      Denniss, E. R. B.

      Lowe, Sir F. W. (Birm., Edgbaston)

      Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset, W.)

      Dickson, Rt. Hon. C. Scott

      Lyttelton, Hon. J. C. (Droitwich)

      Wills, Sir Gilbert

      Dixon, Charles Harvey

      MacCaw, Wm. J. MacGeagh

      Winterton, Earl

      Eyres-Monsell, Bolton M.

      Mackinder, H. J.

      Wolmer, Viscount

      Faber, George D. (Clapham)

      Macmaster, Donald

      Wood, Hon. E. F. L. (Yorks, Ripon)

      Fetherstonhaugh, Godfrey

      M'Neill, Ronald (Kent, St. Augustine's)

      Wood, John (Stalybridge)

      Fisher, Rt. Hon. W. Hayes

      Magnus, Sir Philip

      Worthington-Evans, L.

      Fleming, Valentine

      Malcolm, Ian

      Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-

      Forster, Henry William

      Meysey-Thompson, E. C.

      Wright, Henry Fitzherbert

      Gardner, Ernest

      Middlemore, John Throgmorton

      Yate, Col. C. E.

      Gastrell, Major W. Houghton

      Mildmay, Francis Bingham

      Younger, Sir George

      Gibbs, G. A.

      Mills, Hon. Charles Thomas

      Goldman, C. S.

      Moore, William

      TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr.

      Goldsmith, Frank

      Morrison-Bell, Capt. E. F. (Ashburton)

      Amery and Mr. Bigland.

      Gordon, John (Londonderry, South)

      Munro-Ferguson, Rt. Hon. R. C.

      NOES.

      Abraham, William (Dublin, Harbour)

      Bowerman, Charles W.

      Crumley, Patrick

      Acland, Francis Dyke

      Boyle, Daniel (Mayo, North)

      Cullinan, John

      Adamson, William

      Brace, William

      Davies, E. William (Eifion)

      Addison, Dr. Christopher

      Brady, P. J.

      Davies, Timothy (Louth)

      Agnew, Sir George

      Brocklehurst, W. B.

      Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.)

      Ainsworth, John Stirling

      Bryce, J. Annan

      Davies, M. Vaughan- (Cardiganshire)

      Allen, A. A. (Dumbartonshire)

      Buckmaster, Stanley O.

      Dawes, J. A.

      Allen, Rt. Hon. Charles P. (Stroud)

      Burke, E. Haviland-

      De Forest, Baron

      Arnold, Sydney

      Burns, Rt. Hon. John

      Delany, William

      Asquith, Rt. Hon. Herbert Henry

      Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas

      Denman, Hon. R. D.

      Baker, H. T. (Accrington)

      Buxton, Rt. Hon. S. C. (Poplar)

      Devlin, Joseph

      Baker, Joseph A. (Finsbury, E.)

      Byles, Sir William Pollard

      Dickinson, W. H.

      Ballour, Sir Robert (Lanark)

      Carr-Gomm, H. W.

      Dillon, John

      Baring, Sir Godfrey (Barnstaple)

      Cawley, Sir Frederick (Prestwich)

      Donelan, Captain A.

      Barlow, Sir John Emmott (Somerset)

      Cawley, Harold T. (Heywood)

      Doris, W.

      Barnes, G. N.

      Chapple, Dr. William Allen

      Duffy, William J.

      Barran, Sir J. (Hawick)

      Clancy, John Joseph

      Duncan, J. Hastings (Yorks, Otley)

      Barton, W.

      Clough, William

      Edwards, Clement (Glamorgan, E.)

      Beauchamp, Sir Edward

      Clynes, J. R.

      Edwards, Sir Francis (Radnor)

      Beck, Arthur Cecil

      Collins, G. P. (Greenock)

      Edwards, John Hugh (Glamorgan, Mid)

      Benn, W. W. (T. H'mts, St. George)

      Compton-Rickett, Rt. Hon. Sir J.

      Elverston, Sir Harold

      Bentham, G. J.

      Condon, Thomas Joseph

      Esmonde, Dr. John (Tipnerary, N.)

      Bethell, Sir J. H.

      Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.

      Esmonde, Sir Thomas (Wexford, N.)

      Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine

      Cotton, William Francis

      Essex, Richard Walter

      Black, Arthur W.

      Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth)

      Esslemont, George Birnie

      Boland, John Pius

      Crawshay-Williams, Eliot

      Falconer, J.

      Sooth, Frederick Handel

      Crooks, William

      Farrell, James Patrick

      1058

      1059

      Fenwick, Rt. Hon. Charles

      Lynch, A A.

      Redmond, William Archer (Tyrone, E.)

      Ffrench, Peter

      Macdonald, J. Ramsay (Leicester)

      Rencall, Atneistan

      Field, William

      Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk Burghs)

      Ricnardson, Thomas (Whitehaven)

      Fiennes, Hon. Eustace Edward

      McGhee, Richard

      Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)

      Fitzgibbon, John

      Macnamara, Rt. Hon. Dr. T. J.

      Roberts. Sir J. H. (Denbighs)

      Flavin, Michael Joseph

      MacNeill, J. G. Swift (Donegal, South)

      Robertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradford)

      George, Rt. Hon. D. Lloyd

      Macpherson, James Ian

      Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside)

      Gill, A. H.

      MacVeagh, Jeremiah

      Robinson, Sidney

      Ginnell, Laurence

      M'Callum, Sir John M.

      Roch, Walter F. (Pembroke)

      Gladstone, W. G. C.

      McKenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald

      Roche, Augustine (Louth)

      Glanville, H J.

      M'Laren, Hon. H. D. (Leics.)

      Roche, John (Galway E.)

      Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford

      M'Laren, Hon. F. W. S. (Lincs., Spalding)

      Roe, Sir Thomas

      Greenwood, Granville G. (Peterborough)

      M'Micking, Major Gilbert

      Rowlands, James

      Greenwood, Hamar (Sunderland)

      Marks, Sir George Croydon

      Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter

      Griffith, Ellis Jones

      Mason, David M. (Coventry)

      Russeil, Rt. Hon. Thomas W.

      Guest, Major Hon. C. H. C. (Pembroke)

      Masterman, Rt. Hon. C. F. G.

      Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland)

      Guest, Hon. Frederick E. (Dorset, E.)

      Meagher, Michael

      Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees)

      Gwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway)

      Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.)

      Seaman, Thomas

      Hackett, J.

      Menzies, Sir Walter

      Schwann, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles E.

      Hall, Frederick (Normanton)

      Millar, James Duncan

      Scott, A. MacCallum (Glas., Bridgeton)

      Hancock, J. G.

      Molloy, M.

      Seely, Col. Rt. Hon. J. E. B.

      Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Lewis (Rossendale)

      Molteno, Percy Auport

      Sheehy, David

      Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose)

      Mond, Sir Alfred M.

      Sherwell, Arthur James

      Harmsworth, R. L. (Caithness-shire)

      Money, L. G. Chiozza

      Simon, Sir John Allsebrook

      Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale)

      Mooney, John J.

      Smith, Albert (Lancs, Clitheroe)

      Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, West)

      Morgan, George Hay

      Smith, H. B. L. (Northampton)

      Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N.E.)

      Morison, Hector

      Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.)

      Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth)

      Morton, Alpheus Cleophas

      Snowden, Philip

      Havelock-Allan, Sir Henry

      Muldoon, John

      Soames, Arthur Wellesley

      Hayden, John Patrick

      Murray, Captain Hon. Arthur C.

      Spicer, Rt. Hon. Sir Albert

      Hayward, Evan

      Nannetti, Joseph P.

      Strauss, Edward A. (Southwark, W.)

      Hazleton, Richard (Galway, N.)

      Needham, Christopher T.

      Sutherland, J. E.

      Helme, Sir Norval Watson

      Neilson, Francis

      Sutton, John E.

      Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

      Nicholson, Sir Charles N. (Doncaster)

      Taylor, John W. (Durham)

      Henderson, John M. (Aberdeen, W.)

      Nolan, Joseph

      Taylor, Thomas (Bolton)

      Henry, Sir Charles

      Norton, Captain Cecil W.

      Tennant, Harold John

      Herbert, Col. Sir Ivor (Mon. S.)

      Nugent, Sir Walter Richard

      Thomas, James Henry

      Higham, John Sharp

      Nuttall, Harry

      Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton)

      Hinds, John

      O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

      Thorne, W. (West Ham)

      Hobhouse, Rt. Hon. Charles E. H.

      O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)

      Toulmin, Sir George

      Hodge, John

      O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)

      Trevelyan, Charles Philips

      Hogge, James Myles

      O'Doherty, Philip

      Ure, Rt. Hon. Alexander

      Holmes, Daniel Turner

      O'Donnell, Thomas

      Verney, Sir Harry

      Holt, Richard Durning

      O'Dowd, John

      Wadsworth, J.

      Hope, John Deans (Haddington)

      O'Grady, James

      Walsh, Stephen (Lancs., Ince)

      Howard, Hon. Geoffrey

      O'Kelly, Edward P. (Wicklow, W.)

      Walton, Sir Joseph

      Hudson, Walter

      O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N.)

      Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent)

      Hughes, S. L.

      O'Malley, William

      Ward, W. Dudley (Southampton)

      Isaacs, Rt. Hon. Sir Rufus

      O'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, S.)

      Waring, Water

      Jardine, Sir J. (Roxburgh)

      O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

      Warner, Sir Thomas Courtenay

      John, Edward Thomas

      O'Shee, James John

      Wason, Rt. Hon. E. (Clackmannan)

      Jones, Rt. Hon. Sir D. Brynmor (Swansea)

      O'Sullivan, Timothy

      Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney)

      Jones, Edgar R. (Merthyr Tydvil)

      Outhwaite, R. L.

      Webb, H.

      Jones, H. Haydn (Merioneth)

      Palmer, Godfrey Mark

      Wedgwood, Josiah C.

      Jones, J. Towyn (Carmarthen, East)

      Parker, James (Halifax)

      White, J. Dundas (Glasgow, Tradeston)

      Jones, Leif Stratten (Notts, Rushcliffe)

      Pearce, Robert (Staffs., Leek)

      White, Patrick (Meath, North)

      Jones, William (Carnarvonshire)

      Pearce, William (Limehouse)

      Whitehouse, John Howard

      Jowett, F. W.

      Pearson, Hon. Weetman H. M.

      Whittaker, Rt. Hon. Sir T. P.

      Joyce, Michael

      Pease, Rt. Hon. Joseph A. (Rotherham

      Whyte, A. F.

      Keating, M.

      Phillips, John (Longford, S.)

      Wiles, Thomas

      Kellaway, Frederick George

      Pointer, Joseph

      Wilkie, Alexander

      Kennedy, Vincent Paul

      Pollard, Sir George K.

      Williams, J. (Glamorgan)

      Kilbride, Denis

      Power, Patrick Joseph

      Williams, Llewelyn (Carmarthen)

      King, J.

      Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central)

      Williamson, Sir A.

      Lambert, Rt. Hon. G. (Devon, S. Molton)

      Price, Sir Robert J. (Norfolk, E.)

      Wilson, Hon. G. G. (Hull, W.)

      Lambert, Richard (Cricklade)

      Priestley, Sir Arthur (Grantham)

      Wilson, Rt. Hon. J. W. (Worcs., N.)

      Lardner, James Carrige Rushe

      Priestley, Sir W. E. B. (Bradford, E.)

      Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)

      Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, West)

      Pringle, William M. R.

      Winfrey, Richard

      Leach, Charles

      Raffan, Peter Wilson

      Wood, Rt. Hon. T. McKinnon (Glas.)

      Levy, Sir Maurice

      Raphael, Sir Herbert Henry

      Young, Samuel (Cavan, E.)

      Lewis, John Herbert

      Rea, Rt. Hon. Russell (South Shields)

      Young, William (Perthshire, E.)

      Lough, Rt. Hon. Thomas

      Rea, Walter Russell (Scarborough)

      Yoxall, Sir James Henry

      Low, Sir F. (Norwich)

      Reddy, Michael

      Lundon, T.

      Redmond, John E. (Waterford)

      TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr.

      Lyell, Charles Henry

      Redmond, William (Clare, E.)

      Illingworth and Mr. Gulland.

      Mr. CASSEL: I beg to move, in Subsection (1), to leave out the words "and to impose in Ireland any independent tax not being in the opinion of the Joint Exchequer Board substantially the same in character as an Imperial tax."
      1060
      In proposing this Amendment I desire at once to protect myself against the charge which may possibly be made against me that I said yesterday, when, dealing with the question of the Irish Parliament the Bill was fiddling with

      1061
      Imperial taxes, and that while I would not so strongly object to the Irish Parliament having the power to impose independent taxes, the riddling with Imperial taxes has gone through, and now we come to these independent taxes. I should like to say at once to the Postmaster-General that if the Government meet the points which I am going to put, I may be willing to consider whether I shall press this Amendment to a Division or not. I am afraid the Solicitor-General did me an injustice yes-derday, when I did not like to interrupt him because he was being fired at by hon. Member behind him. The Solicitor-General said I complained that the powers of the Irish Parliament in this respect-were too wide, and that afterwards I complained that they were too small. I was dealing with the power to reduce taxation, which has gone, and I was arguing that the power of increasing taxation should also go. Upon this Amendment the first difficulty is the question of interpretation. It is said that all these independnet taxes which the Irish Parliament may impose must be taxes which are "in the opinion of the Joint Exchequer Board substantially the same in character as an Imperial tax." These are blessed words, and they are sprinkled like salt over this Bill, to make it here and there a little more acceptable. The Joint Exchequer Board will be confronted with an almost impossible task which ought not to be left to a Board of this description, because they will have to determine whether these taxes are substantially the same in character as other taxes.
      Is a Property Tax substantially the same as an Income Tax, and is that a question which you are going to leave to this body of five to determine quite independently of Parliament? If they held that the Property Tax was not substantially the same in character as an Income Tax, the result might be that the whole provision to limit the powers of the Irish Parliament with regard to Income Tax would be rendered nugatory. Is a Corporation Tax substantially the same as an Income Tax? Is a business or a trading licence substantially the same as an Income Tax? The Committee will have to make tip its mind what is meant by the phrase, "substantially the same in character." Does it mean the same character from the point of view of its incidence on the taxpayer or from the point of view of the Exchequer? There is no guidance whatever to the Joint Exchequer Board as to the principle on which it ought to proceed. I will go
      1062
      so far as to say that there are very few independent taxes which I should not be prepared to argue either that they were or were not substantially the same in character. It is said that an appeal is to be granted to the Privy Council on this question, and I should like to have it made quite clear whether that appeal is to be granted, and this seems to be an appropriate opportunity for the Government to make a statement. If such an appeal is to be granted, I would like to ask the Attorney-General how is it to be dealt with from the point of view of the subject, and when is the subject to have his opportunity for an appeal?
      The important point is that the subject should have that right of appeal. On this point the answer of the Postmaster-General was that the subject can raise the question in Court. But how can he do that? Supposing the tax is imposed upon grass land, and that tax has been levied for five years, and at last another Hampden arises in the county of Clare who disputes this question before the Courts, and refuses to pay his tax. What would be the question for the Courts to decide? Not whether this is substantially the same in character as the Undeveloped Land Duty, but whether, in the opinion of the Joint Exchequer Board, it is substantially the same in character. Will the Court have to adjourn the case in order to obtain the opinion of the Joint Exchequer Board, and, if so, how is the subject going to enforce his opinion before the Privy Council or the Joint Exchequer Board? Doubtless the Joint Exchequer Board will look at the matter from the point of view of the Treasury, and they will consider how much it interferes with the revenue of this or that country, rather than from the point of view of the incidence of the tax upon the subject. I do not know whether I have made my point clear or not, but it seems to me that the question might be determined by the Joint Exchequer Board in the absence of the subject without him having any opportunity of being represented either through counsel or personally. We know that in one case recently there was a case in which the subject appeared personally and successfully advocated his case. Is the case to be decided against the subject beforehand, without any opportunity of disputing the facts? How is he to get an appeal to the Privy Council? Those are the points upon which I should like to have some clear and definite explanation, because the Bill, to

      1063
      nay mind, from the point of view of the subject, is useless unless the subject has the right to exercise his right before the Joint Exchequer Board has pre-decided this question.
      The vitally important point you have to decide is what "substantially the same in character" means from the point of view of the Exchequer or from the point of view of the subject. It is a very grave matter, because in reference to almost every independent tax you choose to name I think I could give you some very cogent arguments either way. The Government so far as indirect taxes are concerned, in theory at any rate, have attempted to exclude Protection. I do not say whether they are right or wrong in that. They have made the attempt, but I do not think they have made it successfully, although they think they have stopped up all the loopholes against Protection. Personally I do not think they have, but for argument's sake I will assume they have excluded discrimination. In the name of common sense what reason can there be when you adopt that line to allow these other independent taxes to be as protective and as discriminative as any Irish Parliament may choose to make them. Can they or can they not make them protective or discriminative? What about a duty upon commercial travellers' samples, or a duty upon advertisements? Probably the Postmaster-General will get up and say that I am not living in a world of reality, that I am spinning cobwebs out of a non-ingenious brain, and that these are on the branches of his tree. I venture to put it to the right hon. Gentleman that I am discovering weevils in his rotten tree. Here you have a real case, because I could name instances in our own Colonies where such duties have been imposed. There have been duties imposed on commercial travellers' samples and advertisements, and trading licences have been granted. The right hon. Gentleman seems to think it is outside the world of reality to impose trading licences or duties upon the sale of foreign commodities. I should recommend him to study the history of taxation; I should like to ask if either of the Law Officers of the Crown are prepared to say that it would not be competent for the Irish Parliament to impose a duty upon commercial travellers' samples or to make it a necessity to take out a trading licence to sell articles of foreign manufacture in that country.
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      If they take refuge in Clause 2, Sub-section (7), I propose to answer that in advance. If they rely upon the words:
      "Trade with any place out of Ireland"
      I would call their attention to the words in brackets
      ("except so far as trade may be affected by the exercise of the powers of taxation given to the Irish Parliament.…")
      That is expressly expected. It is trade with any place out of Ireland except so far as trade may be affected by the exercise of the powers of taxation given to the Irish Parliament. If they imposed a duty upon commercial travellers' samples coming into Ireland from Lancashire, or any other part of England, or upon advertisements for the sale of English goods in Ireland, it is true it might be with reference to trade with a place outside of Ireland, but still it would be in the exercise of the powers of taxation given to the Irish Parliament. I venture to submit with some confidence that upon the true construction of this Bill there would be ample power given to the Irish Parliament to impose not only duties upon commercial travellers' samples and foreign advertisements, but also upon the sale in Ireland of articles manufactured abroad, which also is not a thing outside the world of reality as the right hon. Gentleman seems to suppose. There would be ample power to do all those things. I will give the right hon. Gentleman another case, not drawn from the world of unreality, and not one of those cobwebs which the right hon. Gentleman imagines I am spinning, but drawn from actual fact, given to me by persons who are apprehensive of it actually occurring. It has reference to insurance companies and companies of that-character now doing business in Ireland. Would there be anything to prevent the Irish Parliament imposing a special tax upon the branch of a foreign insurance company doing business in Ireland? I should like to have an answer from one of the Law Officers of the Crown to that question. My interpretation is that there is absolutely nothing in this Bill from start to finish to prevent it.
      You may take one theory or the other. You may say, "We are granting a Parliament to Ireland, and therefore we will trust them and allow them to protect and discriminate as much as they like." That is an intelligent view, but, if that is your view, why all these precautions to endeavour to stop discrimination with

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      regard to indirect duties? It is inconsistency of that character I should like to have explained. If the Irish Parliament are going to have the power of independent taxation, it is absolutely monstrous that the English taxpayer should be called upon to pay the cost of collection. Again, I will draw my example, not from that region of fancy where cobwebs are spun, but from one of the most recent experiences of the Chancellor of the Exchequer himself. This afternoon I obtained an answer from the Chancellor of the Exchequer that in the third year of their incidence, the three Land Taxes together, the Increment Value Duty, the Reversion Duty, and the Undeveloped Land Duty, produced in Ireland the magnificent grand total of £157. It would not be sufficient to pay the travelling expenses he allowed two Members of Parliament. When I asked the right hon. Gentleman the cost of collecting that £157 he showed the most surprising reticence and coyness. He referred me to answers which he had given to other Members which again referred to further answers, and in none of them can we find any real answer as to what this £157 cost in collecting.
      Mr. LOUGH: The Irish pay the cost of collection.
      Mr. CASSEL: I accept the right hon. Gentleman as an authority on all fiscal questions, but I am not quite sure I accept him as an equal authority on the question of legal interpretation, and, with all deference to the opinion expressed by him, it appears to me the Imperial Parliament would have to bear the cost of collecting these taxes. If I hear to the contrary from the Law Officers, it will surprise me very much.
      Mr. LOUGH: The cost of collection would increase the amount of the deficit, which the Irish Parliament has to get rid of, and in that sense it is an Irish charge, just the same as old ago pensions and everything else which is reserved.
      Mr. CASSEL: Those who imagine the time is near when the deficit is going to be got rid of may attach some weight to that, but we who do not think so do not attach very much weight to it. I put it, there cannot be any possible defence for imposing on the British taxpayer the cost of collecting any freak taxation which an Irish Chancellor of the Exchequer may choose to impose. He, from his point of
      1066
      view, will not care one iota what it costs. The question whether the deficiency is going to be wiped out by this extra amount or not is one which may come twenty years hence, but it will not come in our generation, and it is the taxpayer of the present day who is being unjustly treated. I would invite the right hon. Gentleman to leave the realm of fancy in which his imagination is now flitting about and to come to the ordinary case where a man has to collect a debt. Supposing somebody owes me a debt and I ask a solicitor to collect it for me, the solicitor does not pay the cost of collection, but I who receive the money. In the case of the Irish Parliament the right hon. Gentleman reverses the process and makes the British Parliament, which has to do the collecting, pay for the cost of collection. This cost of collection will involve very heavy litigation, and the cost of fighting all these cases up to the Privy Council will be borne by the British taxpayer. The question whether a Corporation Tax is of the same character as the Income Tax will have to be fought by the British taxpayer right up to the Privy Council, whilst the Irish taxpayer will get any proceeds resulting from that litigation. I submit that is a perfectly absurd conclusion. The three points upon which I invite the attention of the Government are: First, the question of interpretation; secondly, the question of protection and discrimination with regard to the independent taxes; and, thirdly, the question of the cost of collection.
      Mr. HERBERT SAMUEL: I will leave my right hon. Friend the Attorney-General to reply to certain legal questions which the hon. and learned Member has raised. Let me answer two or three of his other points. I should like, in the first place, to say I should be the last man to suggest the hon. and learned Member has woven anything whether of substance or not out of a non-ingenious brain, for sitting here now for several weeks and listening to his many speeches on the subjects of Irish finance and the Home Rule Bill, I am filled with admiration, if I may respectfully say so, of the ingenuity and the skill with which he endeavours to pick a hole in that which we regard as stubborn and closely woven material, to use another metaphor. The hon. and learned Member has raised to-day two or three points of very considerable substance. He said we are giving to the Irish Parliament the power to devise and levy

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      new taxes so long as they are not substantially the same as Imperial taxes, and that is not a practicable provision. It may be well, in the first place, to point out to the Committee the reason why this restriction is made. The financial scheme of the Bill is based on the proposal that the normal and natural increases of Imperial taxes should flow into the Imperial Exchequer with a view of paying off the deficiency; but as soon as that provision was inserted in the Bill it naturally occurred to us that if the Irish Parliament had power to repeal taxes—and we thought it very desirable—they should do it at their own expense. They might conceivably repeal an Imperial tax which was productive and increasing in its yield and substitute for it another tax under another name, but substantially the same in effect, and the increase of which would go into their own Exchequer instead of into the Imperial Exchequer. We thought that danger was not a very real one, but still it would have been a defect in the scheme if no provision had been made against the possibility. That is the source of and the reason for this part of the Bill which provides that these taxes shall not be substantially the same. The hon. Member puts a number of ingenious conundrums or cases which might arise as to whether particular things are substantially the same.
      Mr. CASSEL: On a construction of the Act?
      Mr. HERBERT SAMUEL: I do not know that you can lay down any principle of construction. It must necessarily depend upon the merits of the case. If there was any principle which could divide the two categories of taxes, we could undoubtedly insert it in the Bill.
      Mr. CASSEL: Is it from the point of view of the taxpayer or from the point of view of the Treasury that this has been inserted?
      Mr. HERBERT SAMUEL: I do not know that the points of view are necessarily different. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh, oh!"] I do not think they are necessarily different. The tax is either substantially the same or it is not. If it is substantially the same in character, then the Treasury and the subject will both be affected by the fact of its identity. It is because it will be necessary, if these cases arise, to deal with them upon their merits that you must have some authority charged with
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      the function of discrimination. The hon. and learned Member suggests that because there is a problem which will have to be solved by the Joint Exchequer Board that problem is therefore insoluble.
      Mr. CASSEL: The right hon. Gentleman is not correctly interpreting me. I suggested that if there was a difficult problem of this character it ought to be made certain the subject has a right of appeal before the case is prejudiced against him.
      Mr. HERBERT SAMUEL: The hon. and learned Member also dwelt upon what he thought was the difficulty which would arise, apart from this question of appeal by the subject, in actually determining any of these cases upon their merits, and he left the impression upon the Committee that because there were possible difficult questions to be dealt with the scheme was therefore in itself impracticable. It is precisely because questions of some difficulty may arise that we have established a body of a more or less authoritative character like the Joint Exchequer Board to deal with those particular points on the merits of each case as it arises. Then the hon. and learned Members says, "Yes, but if the Irish Parliament might take other action afterwards, and the Joint Exchequer Board might raise difficulties." I think that, in practice, in all probability—of course, one cannot speak with certainty on a point which must necessarily arise in the future—but in practice the Irish Chancellor of the Exchequer, before he proceeds with legislation of this kind—
      Mr. CASSEL: My point was that it would be decided beforehand.
      Mr. HERBERT SAMUEL: The hon. Member is continually leading me off the one point. The question, whether or not the scheme is in itself practicable, is the question to which I am addressing myself, and I suggest that in practice what will occur will be that the Irish Chancellor of the Exchequer will go to the Exchequer Board and get their opinion. The hon. Member has asked as to the appeal to the Privy Council, but I would point out that these questions cannot be considered by themselves; they must be considered in conjunction with the general question. It is proposed to amend Cause 29 by adding the following words:—
      "The Lord Lieutenant or the Secretary of State may refer to His Majesty in Council for review the decision of the

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      Joint Board on any question whether any independent tax imposed in Ireland by the Irish Parlaiment, is substantially the same in character as an Imperial tax. Upon the hearing of the question such persons as seem to the Judicial Committee to be interested may be allowed to appear and to be heard as parties to the appeal."
      That is the procedure which, as at present advised, it is contemplated to adopt. Then the hon. and learned Member's second point was with respect to the cost of collection. He says that giving this power to the Irish Parliament to raise new taxes may involve the Imperial Exchequer in a large expenditure. Several hon. Members have criticised the Bill on this particular point, but Irish taxes in the main will be collected by the same officers as collect the present taxes. There may be exceptional cases, but, as a rule, the Irish taxes will be small in amount and merely an addition to Imperial taxes, and naturally they will be collected by the officers who collect the Imperial taxes. It would obviously be a most uneconomical thing to set up a new staff of tax collectors throughout Ireland for the purpose of collecting what may be quite small duties, and many of them mere percentage additions to existing duties! If there is to be only one staff of collectors it will necessarily be an Imperial and not an Irish staff. Then there comes a question whether it is worth while to assess the cost of collection of Irish taxes and to charge the Irish Government with that Amount.
      In framing an Act of Parliament like this one has to consider the probabilities and possible inconveniences. It would be an extremely complicated matter of accounting to determine. For example, supposing the Irish Parliament fixed the Tea Duty at 5½d. instead of 5d., it would complicate the matter and there would have to be a calculation by the Exchequer as to the cost of collecting the extra ½d. Similarly it would have to have determined how much cost would be thrown on the Exchequer by an increase in the Beer Duty, and probably it would not be worth while working that out. It would involve, if you are to work it out with any approach to exactitude, a large amount of trouble which would be scarcely compensated by the result obtained. Furthermore, there is this other reason. The control of the tax-collecting system will be not in the Irish Parliament, but if the Irish, however, are to be made to pay the cost of collecting the Irish additions to an Imperial tax they
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      will be asked to pay for a service over which they have no control. It will not be for them to say, What are to be the number of the officers or their salaries? That will be vested in the Board of Customs and Excise and the Board of Inland Revenue in England.
      Sir GILBERT PARKER: Is it the opinion of the right hon. Gentleman and of the Government that there will not be a possibility under Clause 14 of the transfer of this from the English to the Irish Government?
      Mr. HERBERT SAMUEL: There will be no such transfer, actually or technically, within the terms of the Bill, but it might be possible for the Government to transfer the work to the Irish Parliament. There is no such measure in prospect or contemplated to charge the cost of collection to the Irish Parliament. There remains this point with regard to the cost of collection, but as my right hon. Friend the Member for West Islington has pointed out, that, after all, is a matter of book-keeping. If the cost of collection goes up it will be an Irish charge and to that extent the Irish Government will have an inducement not to lay an excessive charge on the Imperial Government. I cannot admit that the taxes will be in any way protective. I do not know any case in any country in the world in which a tax is imposed on travellers' samples except by Customs Duty. If such a tax were imposed it would possibly be disallowed as being contrary to the plain intention of the Bill. As to the Excise Duty on commercial travellers' samples, is it likely that such a tax would be imposed? Naturally we want to offer the utmost possible inducement to encourage, to the greatest extent within our power, commerce between the two countries. It is not likely that the Irish Government would tax commercial travellers' samples from Lancashire, seeing that almost the whole of their trade is with Great Britain.
      Mr. CASSEL: But you admit that there is the power to do so.
      Mr. HERBERT SAMUEL: I have not considered that. I should not like to answer that question without notice. It is the first time the point has been raised. Lastly, let me point this out to the Committee. The Irish Parliament is to have no power to vary any Imperial tax. On that basis this House has passed the Second Reading of the Bill. I suggest that the position is impossible in this

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      respect. As was pointed out by the hon. Member for South Birmingham, there is no federation in the world where constituent States have power to vary the Customs. We propose nothing of the kind, and, for this reason, I trust the Committee will not accept this Amendment.
      Mr. MITCHELL - THOMSON: The answer of the right hon. Gentleman is really most remarkable. Let me take three of his points. The first question which was put by my hon. Friend was, Is it not possible that a protective duty may be imposed by the Irish Parliament? Is it not possible that the Irish Parliament may put on taxation which will have a protective effect? The reply of the Postmaster-General was, "I do not know, I have not thought it out." That, I submit, is a most remarkable position.
      Mr. HERBERT SAMUEL: It had relation only to commercial travellers' samples.
      Mr. MITCHELL-THOMSON: It has not been suggested that this is a tax which is actually in existence.
      Mr. HERBERT SAMUEL: An Excise tax.
      Mr. MITCHELL-THOMSON: The tax which is to be imposed is to be an independent tax, and it seems to me perfectly clear that the Irish Parliament would have power to impose it as an Excise Duty.
      Mr. HERBERT SAMUEL: I should like the hon. Member to refer mc to any authority with regard to the imposition of an Excise Duty on foreign commercial travellers' samples.
      Mr. MITCHELL-THOMSON: I am quite prepared to admit there may not be such a case, but it will be possible to impose such a duty under this Bill. I do not know, neither does the right hon. Gentleman know, what may occur, but it is possible such a duty might be levied. I understand it is not provided against.
      Mr. HERBERT SAMUEL: It is a question of machinery.
      Mr. MITCHELL-THOMSON: That is not the concern of the Irish Parliament. That touches the second point to which I am coming. The Irish Parliament have not to trouble themselves with the machinery by which a tax is to be levied. All they have to say is that a tax shall be levied, and they turn to the Imperial
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      Parliament and say, "You must provide the machinery for it." The second point of the right hon. Gentleman was the question of the cost of collection. My hon. and learned Friend pointed-out the very great objection which has always been taken to these powers from this side of the Committee, because the Irish Parliament might invent any kind of freak taxation, which is only going to bring in the smallest amount of revenue, while the British taxpayer will have to bear the cost of its collection. The Postmaster-General says that it is not likely that the cost of collection would be very large. He said not one single word about the instance my hon. Friend suggested, in which that cost of collection might be sollen by the fact that the Irish Parliament might have to enter into a long course of litigation in connection with the tax. I do not suppose the right hon. Gentleman will say that is impossible, because there have been cases even within living memory in which Governments have had to enter into protracted litigation in connection with taxes. Does he suggest that that is not likely to occur under the powers given to the Irish Parliament?
      I cannot see why, if you are apportioning the cost of the Joint Exchequer Board between the British and the Irish Parliaments, you should refuse to apportion the cost of collection of taxes between those Parliaments. What was the right hon. Gentleman's justification for his refusal? He gave two reasons. In the first place, that it is difficult to get a precise determination; and, secondly, that the Irish Government will have no control over the appointment of officials. As to the first point, will it really be so difficult to precisely determine the cost of collection, within reasonable limits, of the Irish taxes? It may be difficult, but it will not be half so difficult as to determine what share of the taxes belongs to the Irish Government. You set up this Board and lay upon it the most difficult duty of determining what share of the proceeds of a tax should properly be allotted to the Irish Exchequer, and yet you say, in the same breath, that it is impossible to determine what share of the cost of collection ought to fall on the Irish Exchequer. I say that if you can do the one thing you can do the other. As to the second suggestion, that it will be inadvisable to charge any of the cost of collection to the Irish Exchequer, because the Irish Parliament will have no control over the

      1073
      officers who are to collect the taxes, that opens up a most interesting vista of possibilities. Is it true that the Irish Government will have no say as regards the number of officials to be appointed to collect any tax Supposing the Irish Chancellor of the Exchequer puts a tax upon the land held by graziers in Ireland. Is it suggested by the Government that he will have no voice at all as to the number of officials to be appointed to supervise the collection of that tax? If that is so, do not the Government think that there are possibiliics of the greatest friction there. Suppose the tax is not remunerative. Suppose the Irish Chancellor of the Exchequer thinks it is not remunerative enough. He turns to the British Government and says, "It would be all right if only you gave me more officials to collect it." Can it be suggested that he will have no voice in determining the machinery of collection? Of course he will have a voice. He will suggest what he wants to the Imperial Parliament, and they will have to give it to him, and the Imperial Taxpayers will have to pay for it.
      As to the third point, that any increase in the cost of collection will swell the deficit and so postpone the end of the deficit period, and the period of revision, that is quite true. The Postmaster-General and the right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Islington (Mr. Lough) are in a hurry to see the end of that period. I do not believe that the Irish Chancellor of the Exchequer will be in any great hurry to arrive at the end of the deficit period. The end of that period means a state of affairs when contributions will be expected and demanded from Ireland towards Imperial expenditure, and I do not think the Irish Chancellor of the Exchequer will be in a hurry to arrive at the end of that period. I do not think we shall ever see the end of it, and I think the Irish Chancellor of the Exchequer will Take care that the accounts never do balance, or, if they do balance at the end of two years, he will see that they do not balance in the third year. I turn to the question of the substantial identity of the taxes. I do not think that the right hon. Gentleman has fully appreciated the point made by my hon. and learned Friend. The point really is this: When is the determination to be made as to whether a tax is substantially the same or is different? The right hon. Gentleman's answer to that is, that no doubt, the Chancellor of Exchequer in Ireland will consult the Joint Exchequer
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      Board before he brings in his taxes, and get their opinion. The Committee will remember that under Clause 10 no Vote or Grant of public money, and no Appropriation Bill, can be passed by the Irish Parliament except in pursuance of the recommendation from the Lord Lieutenant. Had it been possible to discuss that Clause—I only pause to observe that that Clause, a most important Financial Clause, has never received a word of discussion—some of my hon. Friends were prepared to propose that Bills imposing taxation should be subject to the same restriction, namely, that they should also have to proceed upon a recommendation from the Lord Lieutenant. Had that been done the suggestion of the right hon. Gentleman as to consulting with the Joint Exchequer Board could have been carried out, and a certificate could have been obtained from: the Lord Lieutenant.
      The right hon. Gentleman does not appreciate the serious objection to consulting the Joint Exchequer Board. If the Joint Exchequer Board say that the tax is substantially the same, and it is not brought forward, that is all right. If, on the other hand, they say the tax is not substantially the same, and the taxing Bill can go on, then the subject in Ireland may be liable to be taxed under a Bill on which the opinion of the Joint Exchequer Board has been obtained, and after an inquiry at which the subject has had no chance of being represented. It is suggested that the Chancellor of the Exchequer in Ireland should go privately, or semi-officially to the Board before he brings in his Bill, and should ask for our opinion on the proposed tax. That is all right, so far as the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the Irish Government are concerned, but the subject is never represented at that inquiry, and never gets a chance of stating his views. If he had, he might have boon able to convince the Joint Exchequer Board that the tax ought not to be imposed. That is the difficulty the Government are in. They say it will be possible later on for the subject to bring the matter to determination in the Law Courts. I confess I do not think that that is so, even under the Amendment the Government has suggested. If I apprehend the Postmaster-General aright, his suggestion is, under Clause 22 or Clause 29, that the Lord Lieutenant or a Secretary of State is to be empowered to go to the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council for a determination as to the rights or wrongs of the

      1075
      proceedings of the Joint Exchequer Board in determining the question of independent taxation. But who is to move the Lord Lieutenant? Quis custodiet upsos custodes? Where does the subject come in? There is no power to the subject to set the machinery in motion. The right hon. Gentleman has not completely answered the arguments of my hon. and learned Friend, and I hope that possibly the Attorney-General may be able to give some further explanation of the points which have been raised, which, I think, he will agree are substantial points.
      Mr. NEWMAN: The Postmaster-General seems to think he has put my hon. and learned Friend (Mr. Cassel) in the hollow of a cleft-stick. That may or may not be the case. There are no cobwebs about this question, and taxpayers in Ireland will be grateful to my hon. and learned Friend for raising this question. There is no doubt that the Irish Parliament, if ever it is set up on College Green, will have to raise money. How is the Irish Chancellor of the Exchequer going to raise it? I submit he will not get money from the centimes additionnels—from the extra taxes on tea, coffee, tobacco, and sugar coming into Ireland. If he puts a swingeing tax on Messrs. Murphy's stout and Jameson's whisky his life will not be worth a moment's purchase. If he wants an extra tax he has got to get it from the one thing Ireland has to tax—that is the land. There are no cobwebs about that. Once this miserable set of Financial Clauses is passed, it becomes merely a question how the money is to be raised— in what way the tax is to be put on the land, and on whom it is to be put. I do not suppose there is very much doubt as to who the first victims will be. I should like to ask the Attorney-General if he thinks that the tax I have suggested would be substantially the same as the taxes already proposed by the Chancellor of the Exchequer over here? The first individuals to be taxed will be the landlords, the ex-landlords, and those men who own or farm a certain amount of land who are known as graziers. Supposing we had a Super-tax of 6d. in the £ put on the rents, as collected., of the Irish landlord, would that be a tax substantially the same as the taxes already levied by the Chancellor of the Exchequer over here? It would be a popular tax and an easy tax to collect. It would be put on as an incentive to the landlords to sell their land for
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      what price they could get. Take another tax, which would be very popular, a tax of 1d. in the £ on the capital value of farms at £500 valuation and upwards. How would that work out? Take a man who farms or grazes a farm of £500 valuation. A 1d. in the £ on the capital value of that land would work out at £52 per annum. It would be a popular tax, a substantial tax, and a tax easy to collect. Would that be within the competence of the Irish Parliament?
      6.0 P.M.
      What engines of oppression those two taxes would be. It would not take very long for the landlords, the ex-landlords, who still live on their own demesne lands, and the unfortunate gentlemen called graziers to be taxed out of existence. The proceeds of the tax would go downwards, and the next person to be taxed would be the man with a small farm. Take a farm worth £20 a year. A penny in the £ on the capital value of that land means £2 1s. 8d. a year, in addition to the annuity he is paying to the British Government or to the landlord. It is a very good thing that the Excise officer who is to collect these taxes is going to be an Imperial officer. He wants to be a stout, brave man from England and a very well paid man. If he was an ordinary man who went round to collect the tax from the unfortunate owner he would not be alive very long. I should like to know if these are the sort of taxes which the Irish Chancellor of the Exchequer can put on, and I should like to ask hon. Gentlemen from Ireland if these are the sort of taxes they are going to put on. Are they the sort of taxes they have in their mind to raise money to run Ireland with? We are told the Irish Chancellor of the Exchequer will have to go along and consult the Joint Exchequer Board as to whether or not the taxes would be legal. Can we imagine the hon. Member (Mr. Dillon) running along to the Joint Exchequer Board and asking them if they will give him leave to put 1d. in the £ on the capital value of graziers' land or 6d. in the £ on the rents collected by Irish landlords? Certainly not. The hon. Member, if he were Chancellor of the Exchequer, would clap on the taxes and risk the general Exchequer Board. That is perfectly certain. Are these taxes competent—1d. in the £ and a 6d. Super-tax on the rents collected by Irish landlords; and if any financier below the Gangway would tell us whether or not they are going to tax land in this way I shall be grateful.
      Captain CRAIG: I listened very carefully yesterday to the arguments from the Radical benches with regard to those powers of taxation to be allowed to the Nationalist Parliament, and all their arguments were that Ireland was really living the life of a rich man, and that it would suit her far better to depart from the high standard set by the rest of the United Kingdom, and cut her expenses and cut her method of living on quite a different scale. Now we hear exactly the same argument used or implied to-day. The right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Lough) last night drew a pathetic picture on this very subject. He spoke very strongly against the Government on this point. Of course, he did not vote against the Government, but he certainly made the strongest possible speech against the Government, and it was all on the point that Irleand really did not require nearly so much money as was spent upon her, and that she ought to live the life of a poor relation and not for a moment strive to keep up the excellent standard which is set by the Imperial Parliament. That being so I cannot see why hon. Members opposite do not accept this Amendment at once and say it cuts out the possibility of the Nationalist party ever raising any more taxation on their own. They will not require to raise any taxation on their own because all hon. Members on that side are convinced that this Bill, if passed through, would allow Ireland to go backward instead of forward in the march of civilisation and the march of economic development.
      I listened to the explanation of the Postmaster-General and he failed to deal with two or three very important questions. Surely if the Bill is to be thrust, as the Government threaten, upon an unwilling people, those people are entitled to have some indication of the class of taxation to which they will be subjected in future. There is not a farmer in Clare or Kerry who does not want to know whether under Home Rule his lands will be still further taxed, and according to this Clause, without the Amendment, apparently the Chancellor of the Exchequer of the hypothetical Parliament to be established in Dublin will have the power of taxing to any extent, irrespective of the real benefit of the country, and of course we in the North of Ireland have always stated that injudicious taxation of say, the linen industry would be fatal to the whole prosperity of the northern counties. I am quite sure that not one hon.
      1078
      Gentleman on the other side has the faintest idea of the ruin which would stare thousands upon thousands in the face if some protection was not put in against tampering with that industry which it has taken so many generations to build up. I know threats have already been made in Nationalist papers in Ireland that if they get Home Rule, one of the very first industries to be attacked is to be the great linen industry of the North of Ireland. Hon. Members say one thing in the House and another out of the House and, after all, the organs of Nationalist opinion in Ireland very often override the Nationalist party themselves and they have to voice the sentiments which are put before them by those who are stronger than themselves outside the House. That is one of the most serious positions which we would have to face in Ireland—the power of allowing the Nationalists, at random, for spite, such as they have shown in the past, to levy any tax on an industry which, as I say, has been built up in the North of Ireland after generations of hard work on the part of the people.
      Does not the Attorney-General himself fear the natural result of this class of legislation? Another person, I am perfectly certain, who would also, unless this Amendment is accepted, be bound to be taxed is the foreign commercial traveller. We have already in Ireland societies who go round the country circulating the names of certain firms which only are to be dealt with. That is to say, a most persistent boycott is in existence against all northern firms, or those who refuse to cave in to the domination of the Ancient Order of Hibernians and other secret societies. I exhibited in this House a list for the Chief Secretary to examine for himself. Does anyone doubt that if it suited the Nationalist party to boycott English goods they could easily do it by clapping a tax on the commercial traveller and another tax of some sort on his samples? No one denies that for a moment. In Nationalist quarters in Ireland England stands as a foreign country. There is no such thing as talking about England being their best friend or anything of that sort. I cannot use the language in the House, but it is the Saxon, the foreigner—"Get rid of foreign rule out of Ireland," and so forth. Therefore you are immediately face to face with the fact that if the Chancellor of the Exchequer in the Nationalist Parliament

      1079
      wished to get up or take advantage of the strong anti-Saxon agitation, it would be possible to cripple any English industry in Ireland that they desire to cripple.
      Another point would be with regard to the agencies or branches of large firms which have their headquarters in England. There is hardly a responsible, respectable insurance company in London or in Scotland that has not got its branches dotted all over Ireland, and these people are doing an enormous amount of business for the simple reason that they have in their employment English and Scotch clerks, who never give away any of the secrets of the firm and who do not allow it to be known what families in the districts have small annuities and so on, and the consequence is that you find, for the same reason, that the northern banks in Ireland have their large connections throughout the South and West because the staff clerks will not be intimidated by the local branches of the various leagues, and therefore the local people are quite content to come in and place their deposits in their safekeeping in preference to a purely national-run bank in Ireland, where we all know, from time to time, information is given to the heads of those leagues, for the very purpose of ascertaining who in the district have deposits that they can bring pressure to bear upon to get subscriptions to keep their concerns going. The large insurance companies do a fine business throughout Ireland for that very reason, and under this Clause, unless the Amendment is accepted, it would be possible for the Nationalist Parliament to put vexatious taxation on these various insurance companies and other large concerns which do such a big business in Ireland. That would be most regrettable. If there is one thing we ought to try to do in framing any measures, it is to prevent one section of the country exhibiting in any way its vindictive feeling by putting oppressive or vexatious taxes against the mother country, and therefore these particular points deserve the very closest attention of the Government. If there was any guarantee whatever that there was the slightest chance of business men running this new Parliament in Dublin, the right hon. Gentleman would probably be able to give an assurance that he would consult these business men, and would be able to make some sort of statement which would reassure people like my hon. Friend (Mr. Newman). People living in distant
      1080
      parts of the South and West would be, at all events, reassured if there was the slightest chance, as I say, of business methods being employed. But in every branch of Nationalist life in Ireland, you find an absolute want of business knowledge and business responsibility, and therefore, not only through vindictiveness, but also through ignorance, you are bound under these financial parts of the Bill to come to irreparable disaster.
      Sir E. CARSON: I wish to put to the Attorney-General one or two questions which arise upon this extraordinary provision—I do not suppose in any other Constitution in the world there is a provision like it with reference to the raising of taxation. I am not going into the question of whether it is right or wrong to give to the Irish Parliament a power of taxation. If the South and West of Ireland think it is a great benefit that they should have a body in Dublin which is able to put additional taxes on them in addition to the taxes put by this Imperial Parliament—if they think that is some thing worth having Home Rule for, I suppose, as we are in Committee upon the Home Rule Bill, we must leave them to enjoy the contemplation of that and say it is something which naturally arises from the setting up of the Parliament in Dublin. Indeed, up to the present, I have not heard it suggested by anyone on either side what single benefit Ireland is going to get except this double system of taxation which you are setting up under this Bill. What I have risen for is to try and find out what the Clause is supposed to mean, because I do not suppose you would find anything in the Bill to assist you in interpreting this Clause. You create a Parliament in the country, and then you say to that Parliament that it is to be able to impose taxation in that country so long as it is an independent tax—whatever that means—
      "not being in the opinion of the Joint Exchequer Board substantially the same in character as an Imperial tax….."
      Could there be anything more extraordinary than such a provision as that? It is not a provision that the Irish Parliament may tax anything in Ireland so far as it is beneficial in their opinion for the Irish people. It is nothing of that kind at all. It is not the Irish Parliament which is to-judge whether the tax is a beneficial one, even although it is only to be levied in Ireland, but an outside body called the Joint Exchequer Board is to decide. Could you

      1081
      have anything more ridiculous? The Irish Parliament must first submit to the Joint Exchequer Board the request, "Are we, the Irish Parliament, entitled, in your opinion, to set up a tax that we think is necessary for the benefit of the country, for purpose of social reform?" or whatever may be the other reasons for which the Irish Parliament would impose the tax. Does the right hon. Gentleman really think that a system of that kind could have any possible duration if it is to be set up in relation to what is to be in reality a Parliament? The Postmaster-General told us that the matter does not end there. When you have taken the opinion of the Joint Exchequer Board he told us, I think, that before an Act of Parliament was brought in at all the Chancellor of the Exchequer would go to this Joint Exchequer Board and ask their opinion upon the question whether he would be right in bringing in the Bill. That would be the preliminary step to bringing in a Bill in the Irish House of Commons. I take it, that is so.
      Then look at the question which the Joint Exchequer Board have to determine. They have to determine whether in their opinion the tax is the same in character as an Imperial tax. That seems to me one of the most difficult, if not one of the most important, questions that could possibly be put before any Board. I will deal with that in a moment, for no explanation has been given of what the nature of the tax might be. The Chancellor of the Exchequer having gone to the Joint Exchequer Board and having put this question before them, certain parties are to be represented before they decide whether he is entitled to bring in his Bill, but the matter does not rest there. When the Board have given their opinion an application can be made by any party interested to come over here to England to the Privy Council, who will have power then to go into the matter. I would ask the Attorney-General what matter are they to go into? As I understand the Bill as at present drawn, the entire matter lies with the Exchequer Board. It is their opinion, and their opinion alone, which is to regulate the matter, and. if they give their opinion, what is the Privy Council going to inquire into over here? Is it going to inquire into whether the decision of the Exchequer Board is right, or are they to inquire into the question whether the Exchequer Board were of that opinion? The Attorney-General knows the difficulty of this class of question, but, so far as I can see, once
      1082
      you leave it to the opinion of the Exchequer Board, to give an appeal to the Privy Council is really nugatory, unless you are going to impute something like dishonesty to the Exchequer Board and say that this is not really their opinion, and that they could not have come to this opinion at all. What I wish to ask the Attorney-General is, What will be the respective functions of the Exchequer Board and the Privy Council by way of appeal when the matter comes over here?
      There is behind that, of course, the important question of all, namely. What is a tax substantially the same in character as an Imperial tax? We have had no illustrations of that. Several questions have been asked in regard to the matter, and no answer has been given. I should like the Attorney-General or somebody to indicate to us what kind of taxes would be and what kind would not be substantially the same in character as an Imperial tax. I would like to put one or two specific cases to the Attorney-General. Suppose, for instance, that the Irish Parliament were to pass a Bill that there was to be an extra tax upon the profits of, say, the linen trade in the North of Ireland, would that be substantially the same as the Imperial Income Tax? That would be taxing the profits of a particular trade. Would that be a tax which the Irish Parliament might impose, or would that be substantially the same as the Income Tax, because the linen trade would have already paid the Imperial Tax upon its profits? I take the linen trade, but, of course, it would be the same as regards any other business. You might take the distilling business, or the brewing business, or whatever other industries you might find in Ireland, or indeed you might take as ray hon. and gallant Friend (Captain Craig) said, the question of the land. Would rents be treated as an additional tax on the head rents? For instance, the Imperial tax would be raised as Income Tax on farming profits, and, if so, would an additional tax, being in the nature of Income Tax, be substantially the same in character as Income Tax imposed by the Imperial Parliament?
      That question must necessarily arise. It has arisen already in this country. Take the question of the Mineral Rights Duty which would be imposed as an extra Income Tax upon mineral rights under the Budget. It was pointed out over and over again tint it was nothing more than an Income Tax upon the produce of those

      1083
      mineral rights. If that is an extra duty under the Budget in relation to mineral rights, is that substantially the same in character as the Imperial tax upon income, and if not, what is the difference and what is the principle on which we are going to leave the whole of this matter at large, not to the Parliament in Ireland, but to the Exchequer Board, for their opinion—a Board which is to have power to regulate not only the Irish House of Commons, but to regulate also and to over-rule apparently this House of Commons? I suppose the Government have some conception in their mind of what kind of taxes could be set up, and I would ask the Attorney-General to tell us if there is any principle which can be or will be laid down in this Bill as the dividing line as to what is a tax substantially the same in character as an Imperial tax. I do not go into the question of the power of the Irish Parliament to raise taxes. What I should like to point out is that in every line, as we go on by these provisions and by the reference of these matters to tribunals, you are really laying the foundations of long and protracted litigation which can lead to nothing but friction as between the two parties.
      Sir GILBERT PARKER: Perhaps the Attorney-General will allow me to ask a question which he could answer in the course of his speech in order that we may understand the position of the Joint Exchequer Board in deciding as to any tax submitted to it. May I ask whether the Irish Treasury and the British Treasury, who will each appoint two Members, are to appoint them from the Treasury itself or from outsiders?
      The ATTORNEY-GENERAL (Sir Rufus Isaacs): In answer to the question of the hon. Member for Gravesend, I would point out that there is nothing in the Bill to limit the choice of the Treasury as to the persons they would think proper to select both here and in Ireland. The main question which has been discussed on this Amendment was, I think, put by the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Dublin University (Sir E. Carson) in the observations he made just now. As I understand the first objection raised was: that this matter, as to whether or not an independent tax is a tax which is substantially the same in character as an Imperial tax, is left to the opinion of the Joint Exchequer Board; that there is no sufficient means of reviewing their deci-
      1084
      sion, and that consequently subjects would be bound by the decision of the Board. It is to that matter, no doubt, that a great deal of criticism has been directed both on this occasion and in preceding Debates. What was said certainly on two occasions in my hearing—I said it myself once—was that we did intend to give some appeal from the decision of the Joint Exchequer Board. My right hon. Friend the Postmaster-General read to the Committee today, not the Amendment we are putting down, but at any rate a suggestion with reference to it. It was not intended to be anything more than that, for undoubtedly points of considerable difficulty are raised. As the result of the discussion we had recently we have been considering the matter, and I am sure hon. Members will recognise that it is one which has to be reviewed with some care, and particularly when you are desiring by the Amendment to give an appeal which will be open to the subject. What is intended is not to confine the appeal merely to a Secretary of State or to the Lord Lieutenant; but we do intend that the appeal should be one of which the subject can avail himself, so that he would be entitled to raise this precise question if he desires to do so; and we have now to determine how that is to be done, and how the subject is to get to the Privy Council. I have stated quite clearly what the intention of the Government is in the matter, namely, that the subject should have in some form or the other the right to get to the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council, so that the Committee may review the decision of the Joint Exchequer Board. Under the suggested Amendment, as it stands at present, the initiative is in the Lord Lieutenant or a Secretary of State, who might refer this matter to the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council for their decision, and when once that is done no further question upon it could arise. That is to say, if this question has been referred to the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council, and the Judicial Committee has expressed its opinion upon it, and I will assume, for argument, that it agrees with the opinion of the Joint Exchequer Board, then it is useless for the subject, or any one else, to carry this question to the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council. It differs from the ordinary case in which the subject is interested in this, that there is one question only to be determined, and which, when you answer it, you answer it for both countries—that is to say, here the only question that has to be

      1085
      determined is whether or not the independent tax imposed in Ireland is substantially the same in character as an Imperial tax, and once that has been answered, it is quite obvious that it will be impossible for any other question with regard to the same tax to be raised again before the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council.
      Mr. MITCHELL-THOMSON: The point we were making was that the subject should have a chance of expressing his views before the question was answered, as otherwise it would be answered on an parte statement.
      Sir RUFUS ISAACS: That is exactly what I am dealing with. He should have an opportunity of presenting his views to the Privy Council before the Privy Council gives the answer, and what we have done, even so far as we have gone with the Amendment at present, was to say that upon the hearing of the question the Privy Council should give leave to any person who appeared to be interested to appear and argue before it. That seems to meet the objection raised by the right hon. and learned Gentleman. Undoubtedly the door ought to be open in the view of the Government for the subject to raise this question, even though it might be that neither Parliament desired to raise it.
      Sir E. CARSON: Will the subject be heard before the Joint Exchequer Board?
      Sir RUFUS ISAACS: No, that is a different question entirely.
      Sir E. CARSON: It might save time.
      Sir RUFUS ISAACS: The Joint Exchequer Board has nothing else to decide but tins one question which comes before it. It would have to consider, first of all, whether or not this is substantially the same tax. It expresses its opinion upon it. Then if there is dissatisfaction with that appeal, and it is thought that the opinion is wrong, there should be, in our view, an opportunity of taking this matter to the Privy Council; but it is unnecessary to do that until you have got the pronouncement of the Joint Exchequer Board. Once you have got that pronouncement, the door is thrown wide open, and no one will have any right to complain that he has not an opportunity of being heard, because it will be made quite clear. This is an answer to the question put to me by the right hon. and learned Gentleman, and a very pertinent question, whether the appeal would be merely an appeal
      1086
      from the expression of opinion of the Joint Exchequer Board; but whether in language which is quite familiar to lawyers, and which, I think, would be understood by the Committee, the Judicial Committee should pronounce its view as to whether it comes to the same conclusion.
      Captain CRAIG: Would the subject get his costs in case he was successful in an appeal?
      Sir RUFUS ISAACS: I am really not able to answer that.
      Mr. CASSEL: Assuming that the Lord Lieutenant does not move in the matter, and does not ask for an appeal, what right has the subject in the case?
      Sir RUFUS ISAACS: If the Lord Lieutenant did not move in the matter, then I should have thought it would be quite easy to have the petition made to him, and if there is any body of opinion at all dissatisfied with the decision of the Joint Exchequer Board that he would refer the matter to the Judicial Committee.
      Sir E. CARSON: You may take it that there would always be a large body of opinion resisting.
      Sir RUFUS ISAACS: Then if that is the case, you can leave it as it is, and it makes it quite unnecessary for me to go a little further to make a better provision. But I think that it was not intended to shut, out the possibility of some further appeal, or some further right to the subject that I was intending to give. If the Lord Lieutenant will not move in the matter, then I should have thought that the question could be raised in Parliament, just exactly the same as the question could be raised in Parliament here. The Secretary of State might be asked whether he would refer it to the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council. Every opportunity is given to raise it by the Amendment even so far as it goes. But in order that there should be no doubt I am prepared to go further and to introduce words, when we put the Amendment on the Paper, which will make it quite clear that the subject will have the right to be heard before the Privy Council upon this question, provided that he makes his application within some limited period. I do not say how many months should be the time that would be allowed, but it must be essential to know whether or not the Judicial Committee will agree with the Joint Exchequer Board, and if there is to be an

      1087
      appeal it must be quickly, and the decision must be obtained within a very short period.
      With those observations I think I have satisfied the objections which were raised by hon. Members opposite upon this matter, and when the Amendment comes on the Paper I think that they will see that we have given effect to their views, and particularly that we have given effect to the suggestion of the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Trinity College. I desire to make it quite plain that when the Judicial Committee comes to consider it it will have to consider it not merely by technical reference to the opinion of the Board, but to determine for itself whether it comes to that conclusion—in other words, to determine it on the merits. That, I think, answers every question which the right hon. and learned Gentleman has put to me with reference to this matter. Another question has undoubtedly been raised during the course of this Debate. The right hon. and learned Gentleman, in the second part of his observations, referred to the independent taxes which may be imposed. He put a series of questions. I shall answer those by saying that you never can determine a question of that kind until you know the precise circumstances. I shall be quite prepared to say that if you are imposing a tax upon the balance of profit or loss of a business, that, of course, would be—so it occurs to me at the moment—substantially the same as an Income Tax. But you may impose various taxes on an industry which would not be taxed directly on the balance of profit or loss, and that is what an Income Tax is. Therefore I can quite conceive cases in which a tax would be imposed which would affect profits, but nevertheless would not be a tax in the nature of Income Tax. It is suggested by the hon. and gallant Gentleman who spoke before my right hon. and learned Friend that you will have taxation on the linen industry. He seems to think that it would be singled out in the first instance for taxation, for apparently the Members of the Irish Parliament, in dealing with matters of finance, would, in the view of the hon. and gallant Member, be actuated by revenge, and not, as I should have thought, by the desire to get money which could be used profitably in Ireland, and which they thought would be usefully derived from a particular industry or
      1088
      class of persons. Assuming that in the Irish Parliament you have considerations before them as to raising revenue, they have to say how that revenue is to be raised. It really does seem to me in the highest degree improbable—I will not use any stronger words—that when they who have to administer the affairs of Ireland in the Irish Parliament and are striving to make their Budget, and will have to commit their revenue, and will try to impose taxation, they will look forward to the thing which would be the best source of taxation—that is, the source which would be least harmful to Ireland and most beneficial to the community. There is very little doubt about that.
      Captain CRAIG: They have already threatened us.
      Sir RUFUS ISAACS: As I understood him, he referred to some observation which he had seen in a newspaper. I cannot conceive that it is any threat. I do not know w7hethcr he suggests that any hon. Member here has made a threat. I understood that that was not what he said; but if you are going to deal with the Irish Parliament and its system of raising finance upon the basis that it will not deal with finance from the aspect of finance, but simply with the desire to revenge itself upon those whom the hon. and gallant Gentleman thinks its enemies, then it is impossible for us to discuss finance at all.
      Mr. JAMES HOPE: That has never been done in this Parliament.
      Sir RUFUS ISAACS: The hon. Member wishes no doubt to take me to another subject, but I know what he is talking about and I answer him emphatically in the negative.
      Mr. JAMES HOPE: The Licence Duties.
      Sir RUFUS ISAACS: I should have thought we had discussed that often enough to know what the answer is, and the hon. Member knows perfectly well that that tax, just the same as any other which he has in mind, certainly was not imposed for the purposes of revenge. We should have to go back to a very old discussion if we want to get into this region, and I do not propose to travel into it now. We are concerned at present with our scheme of finance here, and really, I am surprised when we come to consider the kind of criticism which has been directed to it. At one time it is said, as it was said when we were discussing Clause 2,

      1089
      you must exclude all power of taxation from Ireland. When that passed it is said, you must take away any power of raising Customs or Excise Duty. That we have been discussing to-day. Then we come to the third question. They say you must exclude from Ireland all power of raising independent taxes. Then when you have done all that I would really ask hon. Members opposite what do they consider would be left for Ireland, for its revenue? It is the same old story which has been heard so often and which I only venture to repeat in order to save having to go in detail into what has been said by hon. Members opposite. They are considering this system of finance in the Bill with the idea that Members of Parliament in Ireland will be actuated by wicked minds. If that is the case it is quite useless for us to repeat the language which we have already repeated. We take a contrary view and we think that when they are exercising their powers in the Irish Parliament they will seek to administer affairs as they think best for the needs of Ireland. The views between us are so conflicting that I am afraid that we cannot reconcile them, and we must be content to leave it there as we had to do at various other points in this Debate.
      Mr. CASSEL: Will the right hon. Gentleman deal with the question of Clause 2, Sub-section (7), as to whether it does not in fact authorise the Irish Parliament to impose protective duties of the character I have indicated.
      Sir RUFUS ISAACS: The hon. and learned Gentleman is putting a question to me which it is quite impossible for me to answer. I cannot express an opinion as to whether a case comes within this particular Clause until I know the facts, and it certainly would be very wrong for me to express, across the floor of the House, merely upon a statement made by the hon. and learned Member in regard to it, an opinion which might afterwards be used against me on a subsequent question.
      Mr. CASSEL: I was putting a perfectly general question, whether it would be possible to impose special discriminative taxes against goods manufactured abroad.
      Mr. BUTCHER: It appears to me that the Lord Lieutenant may put the Privy Council in motion on an appeal from a decision of the Joint Exchequer Board in regard to these matters. Can the right hon. and learned Gentleman tell the Committee who sets the Lord Lieutenant in motion? Will he act on the advice of the Irish Ministers or on his own initiative? If he acts on the advice of Irish Ministers, it seems to me the whole proceeding is perfectly futile. Ex-hypothesi the Irish Parliament proposes to levy a tax, and the Exchequer Board may decide that it is right; then somebody wants to appeal, and he asks the Lord Lieutenant to say that the tax should not be levied. Then the Lord Lieutenant refers to the Irish Ministers, who advise him not to put the Privy Council in motion. How is the Lord Lieutenant to act? It is a material question, and can the right hon. Gentleman tell us whether the Lord Lieutenant, in the exercise of his power, will act on the advice of Irish Ministers or on his own motion? If he has to neglect the advice of Irish Ministers, will not that put him in an awkward position?
      Sir RUFUS ISAACS: I have dealt with that point already. The Lord Lieutenant would no doubt act on the advice of Irish Ministers, but I can quite see that cases might arise where petitions would be presented, and the Lord Lieutenant might refer the matter to the Privy Council.
      Mr. BUTCHER: I will put a question on the Paper.
      Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Clause."
      The Committee divided: Ayes, 308; Noes, 178.

      Division No. 327.]

      AYES.

      [6.50 p.m.

      Abraham, William (Dublin, Harbour)

      Atherley-Jones, Llewellyn A.

      Beauchamp, Sir Edward

      Acland, Francis Dyke

      Baker, Harold T. (Accrington)

      Beck, Arthur Cecil

      Adamson, William

      Baker, Joseph Allen (Finsbury)

      Bentham, G. J.

      Addison, Dr. Christopher

      Balfour, Sir Robert (Lanark)

      Bethell, Sir John Henry

      Adkins, Sir W. Ryland D.

      Baring, Sir Godfrey (Barnstaple)

      Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine

      Agnew, Sir George William

      Barlow, Sir John Emmott (Somerset)

      Black, Arthur W.

      Allen, A. A. (Dumbartonshire)

      Barnes, George N.

      Boland, John Pius

      Allen, Rt. Hon. Charles Peter (Stroud)

      Barran, Sir John N. (Hawick B.)

      Booth, Frederick Handel

      Arnold, Sydney

      Barran, Rowland Hurst (Leeds, N.)

      Bowerman, C. W.

      Asquith, Rt. Hon. Herbert Henry

      Barton, W.

      Boyle, D. (Mayo, N.)

      Brace, William

      Helme, Sir Norval Watson

      O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

      Brady, P. J.

      Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

      O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)

      Brocklehurst, W. B.

      Henderson, J. M. (Aberdeen, W.)

      O'Connor, T. P. Liverpool)

      Bryce, John Annan

      Henry, Sir Charles S.

      O'Doherty, Philip

      Buckmaster, Stanley O.

      Herbert, Col. Sir Ivor (Mon, S.)

      O'Donnell, Thomas

      Burke, E. Haviland

      Higham, John Sharp

      O'Dowd, John

      Burns, Rt. Hon. John

      Hinds, John

      O'Grady, James

      Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas

      Hobhouse, Rt. Hon. Charles E. H.

      O'Kelly, Edward P. (Wicklow, W.)

      Buxton, Rt. Hon. S. C. (Poplar)

      Hodge, John

      O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N.)

      Byles, Sir William Pollard

      Hogge, James Myles

      O'Malley, William

      Carr-Gomm, H. W.

      Holmes, Daniel Turner

      O'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, S.)

      Cawley, Sir Frederick (Prestwich)

      Holt, Richard Durning

      O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

      Cawley, Harold T. (Lancs., Heywood)

      Hope, John Deans (Haddington)

      O'Shee, James John

      Chancellor, H. G.

      Horne, C. Silvester (Ipswich)

      O'Sullivan, Timothy

      Chapple, Dr. W. A.

      Howard, Hon. Geoffrey

      Outhwaite, R. L.

      Clancy, John Joseph

      Hudson, Walter

      Palmer, Godfrey Mark

      Clough, William

      Hughes, S. L.

      Parker, James (Halifax)

      Clynes, John R.

      Isaacs, Rt. Hon. Sir Rufus

      Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek)

      Compton-Rickett, Rt Hon. Sir J.

      Jardine, Sir John (Roxburghshire)

      Pearce, William (Limehouse)

      Condon, Thomas Joseph

      John, Edward Thomas

      Pease, Rt. Hon. Joseph A. (Rotherham)

      Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.

      Jones, Rt. Hon. Sir D. Brynmor (Swansea)

      Phillips, Col. Ivor (Southampton)

      Cotton, William Francis

      Jones, Edgar (Merthyr Tydvil)

      Phillips, John (Longford, S.)

      Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth)

      Jones, H. Haydn (Merioneth)

      Pirie, Duncan V

      Crawshay-Williams, Eliot

      Jones, J. Towyn (Carmarthen, East)

      Pointer, Joseph

      Crooks, William

      Jones, Leif Stratten (Notts, Rushcliffe)

      Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H.

      Crumley, Patrick

      Jones, William (Carnarvonshire)

      Power, Patrick Joseph

      Cullinan, John

      Jowett, Frederick William

      Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central)

      Dalziel, Rt. Hon. Sir J. H. (Kirkcaldy)

      Joyce, Michael

      Price, Sir Robert J. (Norfolk, E.)

      Davies, E. William (Eifion)

      Keating, Matthew

      Priestley, Sir W. E. B. (Bradford, E.)

      Davies, Timothy (Lincs., Louth)

      Kellaway, Frederick George

      Pringle, William M. R.

      Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.)

      Kennedy, Vincent Paul

      Radford, George Heynes

      Davies, M. Vaughan- (Cardigan)

      Kilbride, Denis

      Raffan, Peter Wilson

      Dawes, J. A.

      King, J.

      Raphael, Sir Herbert H.

      Delany, William

      Lambert, Rt. Hon. G. (Devon, S. Molton)

      Rea, Rt. Hon. Russell (South Shields)

      Denman, Hon. Richard Douglas

      Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade)

      Rea, Walter Russell (Scarborough)

      Devlin, Joseph

      Lardner, James Carrige Rushe

      Reddy, Michael

      Dickinson, W. H.

      Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, West)

      Redmond, John E. (Waterford)

      Dillon, John

      Lawson, Sir W. (Cumb'rld, Cockerm'th)

      Redmond, William (Clare, E.)

      Donelan, Captain A.

      Leach, Charles

      Redmond, William Archer (Tyrone, E.)

      Doris, William

      Levy, Sir Maurice

      Rendall, Athelstan

      Duffy, William J.

      Lewis, John Herbert

      Richardson, Thomas (Whitehaves)

      Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness)

      Lundon, T.

      Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)

      Duncan, J. Hastings (York, Otley)

      Lyell, Charles Henry

      Roberts, Sir J. H. (Denbighs)

      Edwards, Clement (Glamorgan, E.)

      Lynch, A.

      Robertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradford)

      Edwards, Sir Francis (Radnor)

      Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester)

      Robertson, John M. (Tyneside)

      Elverston, Sir Harold

      Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk Burghs)

      Robinson, Sidney

      Esmonde, Dr. John (Tipperary)

      McGhee, Richard

      Roch, Walter F. (Pembroke)

      Esmonde, Sir Thomas (Wexford, N.)

      Macnamara, Rt. Hon. Dr. T. J.

      Roche, Augustine (Louth)

      Essex, Richard Walter

      MacNeill, J. G. Swift (Donegal, South)

      Roche, John (Galway, E.)

      Esslemont, George Birnie

      Macpherson, James Ian

      Roe, Sir Thomas

      Falconer, J.

      MacVeagh, Jeremiah

      Rowlands, James

      Farrell, James Patrick

      M'Callum, Sir John M.

      Rowntree, Arnold

      Fenwick, Rt. Hon. Charles

      M'Curdy, C. A.

      Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter

      Ffrench, Peter

      McKenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald

      Russell, Rt. Hon. Thomas W.

      Field, William

      M'laren, Hon. H. D. (Leics.)

      Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland)

      Fiennes, Hon. Eustace Edward

      M'Laren, Hon. F. W. S. (Lincs., Spalding)

      Samuel, J. (Stockton)

      Fitzgibbon, John

      M'Micking, Major Gilbert

      Scanlan, Thomas

      Flavin, Michael Joseph

      Manfield, Harry

      Schwann, Rt. Hon. Sir C. E.

      George, Rt. Hon. D. Lloyd

      Marks, Sir George Croydon

      Scott, A. MacCallum (Glas., Bridgeton)

      Gill, A. H.

      Mason, David M. (Coventry)

      Sheehy, David

      Ginnell, Lawrence

      Masterman, Rt. Hon. C. F. G.

      Sherwell, Arthur James

      Gladstone, W. G. C.

      Meagher, Michael

      Shortt, Edward

      Glanville, H. J.

      Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.)

      Simon, Sir John Allsebrook

      Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford

      Menzies, Sir Walter

      Smith, Albert (Lancs., Clitheroe)

      Greenwood, Granville G. (Peterborough)

      Millar, James Duncan

      Smith, H. B. L. (Northampton)

      Greenwood, Hamar (Sunderland)

      Molloy, Michael

      Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.)

      Griffith, Ellis Jones

      Molteno, Percy Alport

      Snowden, Philip

      Guest, Major Hon. C. H. C. (Pembroke)

      Mond, Sir Alfred Moritz

      Soames, Arthur Wellesley

      Guest, Hon. F. E. (Dorset, E.)

      Money, L. G. Chiozza

      Spicer, Rt. Hon Sir Albert

      Gulland, John William

      Mooney, J. J.

      Stanley, Albert (Staffs, N.W.)

      Gwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway)

      Morgan, George Hay

      Strauss, Edward A. (Southwark, West)

      Hackett, J.

      Morrell, Philip

      Sutherland, John E.

      Hall, F. (Yorks, Normanton)

      Morison, Hector

      Sutton, John E.

      Hancock, John George

      Morton, Alpheus Cleophas

      Taylor, John W. (Durham)

      Harcourt, Rt. Hon. L. (Rossendale)

      Muldoon, John

      Tennant, Harold John

      Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose)

      Munro-Ferguson, Rt. Hon. R. C.

      Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton)

      Harmsworth, R. L. (Caithness-shire)

      Murray, Captain Hon. A. C.

      Thorne, William (West Ham)

      Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale)

      Nannetti, Joseph

      Toulmin, Sir George

      Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, W.)

      Needham, Christopher T.

      Trevelyan, Charles Philips

      Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N.E.)

      Neilson, Francis

      Ure, Rt. Hon. Alexander

      Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth)

      Nicholson, Sir Charles N. (Doncaster)

      Verney, Sir Harry

      Havelock-Allan, Sir Henry

      Nolan, Joseph

      Wadsworth, John

      Hayden, John Patrick

      Norton, Captain Cecil W.

      Walsh, Stephen (Lancs., Ince)

      Hayward, Evan

      Nugent, Sir Walter Richard

      Walton, Sir Joseph

      Hazleton, Richard (Galway, N.)

      Nuttall, Harry

      Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent)

      1092

      1093

      Waring, Walter

      Whittaker, Rt. Hon. Sir Thomas P.

      Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)

      Warner, Sir Thomas Courtenay

      Whyte, A. F. (Perth)

      Winfrey, Richard

      Wason, Rt. Hon. E. (Clackmannan)

      Wiles, Thomas

      Wood, Rt. Hon. T. McKinnon (Glas.)

      Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney)

      Wilkle, Alexander

      Young, Samuel (Cavan, East)

      Webb, H.

      Williams, J. (Glamorgan)

      Young, W. (Perthshire, E.)

      Wedgwood, Josiah C.

      Williams, Llewelyn (Carmarthen)

      Yoxall, Sir James Henry

      White, J. Dundas (Glas., Tradeston)

      Williams, Penry (Middlesbrough)

      White, Patrick (Meath, North)

      Wilson, Hon. G. G. (Hull, W.)

      TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr.

      Whitehouse, John Howard

      Wilson, Rt. Hon. J. W. (Worcs., N.)

      Gulland and Mr. Wedgwood Benn.

      NOES.

      Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

      Forster, Henry William

      Mildmay, Francis Bingham

      Aitken, Sir William Max

      Gardner, Ernest

      Mills, Hon. Charles Thomas

      Amery, L. C. M. S.

      Gastrell, Major W. H.

      Moore, William

      Anson, Rt. Hon. Sir William R.

      Gibbs, G. A.

      Morrison-Bell, Capt. E. F. (Ashburton)

      Archer-Shee, Major M.

      Goldsmith, Frank

      Mount, William Arthur

      Ashley, W. W.

      Gordon, John (Londonderry, South)

      Newdegate, F. A.

      Astor, Waldorf

      Gordon, Hon. John Edward (Brighton)

      Newman, John R. P.

      Baird, J. L.

      Goulding, Edward Alfred

      Newton, Harry (Kottingham)

      Balcarres, Lord

      Greene, W. R.

      Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield)

      Baldwin, Stanley

      Gretton, John

      Nield, Herbert

      Banbury, Sir Frederick George

      Guinness, Hon. Rupert (Essex, S. E.)

      O'Neill, Hon. A. E. B. (Antrim, Mid)

      Barnston, Harry

      Guinness, Hon. W. E. (Bury S. Edmunds)

      Orde-Powlett, Hon. W. G. A.

      Barrie, H. T.

      Hall, D. B. (Isle of Wight)

      Parker, Sir Gilbert (Gravesend)

      Bathurst, Charles (Wilts, Wilton)

      Hamersley, Alfred St. George

      Parkes, Ebenezer

      Beach, Hon. Michael Hugh Hicks

      Hamilton, Lord C. J. (Kensington, S.)

      Peto, Basil Edward

      Beckett, Hon. Gervase

      Hamilton, Marquess of (Londonderry)

      Pole-Carew, Sir R.

      Benn, Arthur Shirley (Plymouth)

      Hardy, Rt. Hon. Laurence

      Pollock, Ernest Murray

      Bentinck, Lord H. Cavendish-

      Harrison-Broadley, H. B.

      Pryce-Jones, Colonel E.

      Bigland, Alfred

      Helmsley, Viscount

      Remnant, James Farquharson

      Bird, A.

      Henderson, Major H. (Berks, Abingdon)

      Ronaldshay, Earl of

      Boles, Lt.-Col. Dennis Fortescue

      Hewins, William Herbert Samuel

      Rothschild, Lionel de

      Boscawen, Sir Arthur S. T. Griffith-

      Hickman, Colonel Thomas E.

      Rutherford, John (Lancs., Darwen)

      Boyle, William (Norfolk, Mid)

      Hill, Sir Clement L.

      Samuel, Sir Harry (Norwood)

      Boyton, J.

      Hills, J. W.

      Sanders, Robert A.

      Bridgeman, William Clive

      Hill-Wood, Samuel

      Sanderson, Lancelot

      Bull, Sir William James

      Hoare, Samuel John Gurney

      Scott, Leslie (Liverpool, Exchange)

      Burgoyne, A. H.

      Hohler, G. Fitzroy

      Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

      Burn, Colonel C. R.

      Hope, Harry (Bute)

      Smith, Harold (Warrington)

      Butcher, J. G.

      Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield)

      Spear, Sir John Ward

      Campbell, Rt. Hon. J. (Dublin Univ.)

      Hope, Major J. A. (Midlothian)

      Stanier, Beville

      Campion, W. R.

      Horne, W. E. (Surrey, Guildford)

      Stanley, Hon. G. F. (Preston)

      Carlile, Sir Edward Hildred

      Horner, A. L.

      Stewart, Gershom

      Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward H.

      Houston, Robert Paterson

      Strauss, Arthur (Paddington, N.)

      Cassel, Felix

      Hume-Williams, William Ellis

      Swift, Rigby

      Castlereagh, Viscount

      Hunt, Rowland

      Sykes, Alan John (Ches., Knutsford)

      Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

      Hunter, Sir Charles Roderick

      Sykes, Mark (Hull, Central)

      Cecil, Lord Hugh (Oxford University)

      Jardine, E. (Somerset, E.)

      Talbot, Lord E.

      Cecil, Lord R. (Herts, Hitchin)

      Joynson-Hicks, William

      Terrell, George (Wilts, N.W.)

      Chaloner, Colonel R. G. W.

      Kebty-Fletcher, J. R.

      Terrell, Henry (Gloucester)

      Chambers, James

      Kerr-Smiley, Peter Kerr

      Thomson, W. Mitchell- (Down, N.)

      Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry

      Kerry, Earl of

      Tobin, Alfred Aspinall

      Clay, Captain H. H. Spender

      Kimber, Sir Henry

      Touche, George Alexander

      Clive, Captain Percy Archer

      Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement

      Tryon, Captain George Clement

      Clyde, J. Avon

      Knight, Captain E. A.

      Valentia, Viscount

      Cooper, Richard Ashmole

      Lane-Fox, G. R.

      Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid)

      Courthope, George Loyd

      Larmor, Sir J.

      White, Major G. D. (Lancs., Southport)

      Craig, Charles Curtis (Antrim, S.)

      Law, Rt. Hon. A. Bonar (Bootle)

      Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.)

      Craig, Ernest (Cheshire, Crewe)

      Lewisham, Viscount

      Wills, Sir Gilbert

      Craik, Sir Henry

      Locker-Lampson, G. (Salisbury)

      Winterton, Earl

      Crichton-Stuart, Lord Ninian

      Locker-Lampson, O. (Ramsey)

      Wolmer, Viscount

      Croft, H. P.

      Lockwood, Rt. Hon. Lt.-Col. A. R.

      Wood, Hon. E. F. L. (Ripon)

      Dalziel, Davison (Brixton)

      Long, Rt. Hon. Walter

      Wood, John (Stalybridge)

      Denniss, E. R. B.

      Lowe, Sir F. W. (Birm., Edgbaston)

      Worthington-Evans, L.

      Dickson, Rt. Hon. C. Scott

      Lyttelton, Hon. J. C. (Droitwich)

      Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-

      Dixon, Charles Harvey

      MacCaw, Wm. J. MacGeagh

      Wright, Henry Fitzherbert

      Doughty, Sir George

      Mackinder, Halford J.

      Yate, Col. C. E.

      Eyres-Monsell, B. M.

      Macmaster, Donald

      Younger, Sir George

      Faber, George D. (Clapham)

      Malcolm, Ian

      Fell, Arthur

      Meysey-Thompson, E. C.

      TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Captain

      Fetherstonhaugh, Godfrey

      Middlemore, John Throgmorton

      Craig and Mr. R. MacNeill.

      Fleming, Valentine

      Mr. HEWINS: I beg to move, in Subsection (1), after the word "limitation" ["the following limitations"], to insert the words, "(a) The Irish Parliament shall not have power to differentiate or discriminate in levying taxes so as to give bounties on the production or export of goods."
      1094
      7.0 P.M.
      In submitting that Amendment may I express my amazement at the rapidity with which the party opposite is becoming deeper and deeper involved in the policy of Protection. I take the series of Amendments which we have considered during the last few days, and in every one they

      1095
      have taken a step which brings them nearer and nearer to the adoption of that policy, and now, by this Amendment, we have, if I may say so, a test case. Are the party opposite going to vote for or against this Amendment? There is no possible room for misapprehension on the subject. Bounties are everywhere considered the essential mark of Protection everywhere. You may have a system of Import and Export Duty which is not Protection. The greatest economists in the Free Trade movement have always given their approval to certain classes of Import Duties which they did not consider protective, and it is perfectly open to a Free Trade party to adopt a moderate system of revenue from Import Duties, even though they give a microscopic Protection, which would not be a serious infraction of the Free Trade principle. With regard to bounties, the case is absolutely different. Universally in this country and on the Continent in the writings of all great economists the bounty is the sign of Protection. So much so is that the case that Continental writers, in looking up what we may call the fiscal policy of the United Kingdom, or many among them, are found who say it is a case over again of "perfidious Albion," and that in regard to certain important branches we have never given up the system of Protection. They say we have never given up the system of Protection with regard to our shipping and shipbuilding, owing to certain methods we have practised, and which, they say, constitute bounties on those particular industries. Therefore, they say, that it is absurd for us in this country to say that we are Free Traders as long as we retain those particular methods. In the very short time we have for the discussion of this important subject, now less than half an hour, I am not going once more over the case I gave the House yesterday in arguing the point of Order as to the very numerous methods by which a country may give bounties.
      I can fall back on the Board of Trade publications and Reports and on the Consular Reports issued by the Foreign Office, and in which there are so many ways enumerated in which bounties can be given and are given by the exercise of powers of taxation, such as we are giving to the Irish Parliament under this Bill. Therefore, I am not going to labour that case. I would put it this way, that the view taken by the Postmaster-General that the expres-
      1096
      sion bounty is to be confined to a direct payment in encouragement of exports is not the usual sense in which that term is used at the present time, nor is it the usual form which a bounty takes under the tariff system of the different countries in Europe. That is, if I may say so, a mere text-book phrase, and it is only another example of what I referred to last night, namely, of the facility with which the Postmaster-General, with his very wide knowledge on economic subjects, is able to invent formulæ to induce the Liberal party to vote for a system of Protection. I am going to assume that if what the Postmaster-General said about the intention of the Government is correct, either the Government is bound to accept this Amendment, or else it is with equal certainty committing the whole of the Liberal party to the system of Protection which the word "bounty" summarises and expresses. There is no escape from that. I venture to assure hon. Gentlemen opposite that whatever the Postmaster-General may say, whatever unction those people may lay to their souls that they are not voting for Protection, with the most perfect frankness, that we are going to explain throughout the country with fullness of detail the precise significance of the action by which the Liberal and Free Trade party has been induced to vote for a policy of Protection. I put in this warning that the British elector will forgive very much, but there is one thing they will never forgive, and that is the failure to play straight with these great questions of finance.
      What is the position in Ireland? I wish to look at what we may call the atmosphere in which the Government has introduced these proposals. We know perfectly well what Irishmen think about these questions. There is no misconception about that. They are perfectly straightforward about it. I have often attacked Members of the Nationalist party, but one thing I have never denied, and that is that they are perfectly straightforward. I do not complain of hon. Gentlemen below the Gangway for getting this Government to bring the Gentlemen opposite to vote for this policy. It is very natural if they can upset the Liberal party on formulæ, and so much to the credit of the brains of hon. Gentlemen below the Gangway. Hon. Gentlemen opposite should have more knowledge of the subject and acquaintance with the details, and if they are taken in they have them-

      1097
      selves to blame for the consequences. What is the state of opinion in Ireland? It is universally admitted. The hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Water-ford (Mr. John Redmond) shakes his head, but some years ago, along with my right hon. Friend the Member for Wimbledon (Mr. Chaplin). I had the opportunity in Dublin of hearing a great, deal of evidence from representative people all over Ireland, and we found substantially no difference whatever. There were differences on points of detail, no doubt, but the general desire for a protective system in Ireland was unanimous. In fact, so much was that the case, and my right hon. Friend will correct me if I am wrong, we were universally congratulated in Ireland because we advocated a system which harmonised all the conflicting interests in Ireland. We actually had in Dublin a banquet attended by Nationalists and Unionists, and the one thing they were unanimous about was the desirability of a protective system, for Ireland.
      I do not depend in the least upon a mere expression of opinion. I have got the facts of actual organisations that exist in Ireland at the present time. You have got all over Ireland industrial organisations, the object of which is to secure for Irish industries and Irish manufactures even the meagre protection which can be obtained under the present system. We have those associations all over Ireland. We have the business experience of people who have trade relations with Ireland. In order to elucidate this question I have taken the trouble to make inquiries amongst business firms which have relations with Ireland. Under the idea of the sentimental preference which is being encouraged everywhere in Ireland for the purchase and sale of Irish goods, their commercial travellers are told over and over again that no further orders can be given. I have not the time now to give the details of this matter, but if the hon. and learned Member for Waterford or anybody else wishes to know I am perfectly willing to show them the evidence of those firms, and the names of those firms, and to give them this conclusive proof, that if Ireland is determined on any one thing it is determined to carry out this policy of Protection. And why should they not be? I know very well we have the notion in England in some quarters that Irish economic activities consist of the linen industry and shipbuilding, and that for the most part all the rest is agriculture. As a matter of fact, if you
      1098
      examine the Census Returns, you will find there is an exceedingly wide range of Irish industries. Those Irish industries, as we have pointed out, have been severely prejudiced by the policy the United Kingdom has pursued during the past sixty years. But there is no reason why those industries should not be put on their legs again, and it is perfectly legitimate on the part of hon. Gentlemen below the Gangway to aim at reviving those industries by any method which is open to them under the system of government which is now proposed. We may be perfectly certain that one of the earliest things an Irish Parliament would have to deal with would be to devise methods within the four corners of your Home Rule scheme to encourage Irish industry by remissions of taxation, by direct payments, and by other fiscal methods.
      The method of giving bounties is exceedingly well known. Our firms in England constantly receive invitations from the United States and from Continental countries like Roumania and many other parts, to set up their manufactures in those countries—on what terms? Why, on the terms of the remission of taxation. It is a perfectly well-known method of granting a bounty to industries. I am not going to be out of order, but I could describe other methods by which those bounties are given. We may be perfectly certain that the strongest pressure will be brought to bear on the Irish Parliament to exercise the powers they possess in giving encouragement to industries in the way I have described. I say they are bound to do it. We are not legislating, I suppose, for next year or the year after. We are legislating for a long period of time. How in the world is Ireland to escape the financial embarrassment this Bill will bring on her unless she takes steps to increase the productivity of Ireland? Will the Irish succeed in working a bounty system? I say hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite are bound by their own admissions to admit that they will succeed to a certain extent. All the arguments at the back of the land policy and the scheme of taxation they have supported goes upon this, that the incidence of rates is of a certain kind. Why? Because under the system of competition if you have differences of level you are bound to have those things adjusted, and you are bound to have a number of firms given advantages such as I have described. They can do it, and Ireland has done it

      1099
      before in the eighteenth century. It was a common method, by which Ireland sought to increase its industries to give bounties, and if they are called on to grant those exemptions and those discriminations in taxation they can do it, and none of the explanations from the Treasury Bench have convinced me that they have thought of how the Joint Exchequer Board or anybody else is going to prevent them.
      What is the probable result? I say that the first result will be a great increase of friction. You have only to look through the evidence of business firms to see how deeply they resent the methods already adopted in Ireland for giving that sentimental encouragement to Irish products. I am perfectly certain that once that country embarks on that policy, you will find friction increasing by leaps and bounds. Apart from that, it must lead to the accentuation of differences between the two countries. It must lead to the growth of new vested interests, and in this connection I would point out that under the truncated Amendment of the Postmaster-General what is left to the Irish Parliament is this, and that is the final power under a tariff when, if ever, our fiscal system is reorganised, or suppose there was any drain on the finances of this country, or any departure from the present system, then you put into the hands of the Irish Government the most powerful means known to civilised tariff countries of bringing pressure to bear, and that is the power of penalisation and retaliation, under the Amendment of the right hon. Gentleman opposite. Great frictions are likely to arise from those differences of system. We stand on this ground. We are absolutely against any difference of any kind between Great Britain and Ireland. We stand for the fiscal unity of the United Kingdom. Guarantee that fiscal unity, which has been accepted in times past by Protectionists, by Tariff Reformers, by Free Traders, and by every great financial statesman, and you can begin to talk about Ireland. But if you are going to begin by breaking up that fiscal unity, and then give to the Irish Parliament power to accentuate those differences and to produce friction between the business men and working men of Great Britain and Ireland, I say that you are acting contrary to the interests of the Kingdom and of the Empire. I do not know that we have any Free Trade party now. I do not think we have; but there may be a few people left on the other side with some
      1100
      relics of their convictions as Free Traders. If there are, they are bound to vote against bounties in Ireland. It is not so much the principle of Protection. All the discussions that we have had have brought more and more into relief the conclusion that what really stands between that side and this is not so much the question whether you may or may not depart from the principles of Free Trade, but whether on the one side you will disintegrate, or, on the other, consolidate the Empire. It is the Empire question that is at the back of all this. Future generations will bear me out that that is the significance of the votes that hon. Members are giving in this great Home Rule controversy on this point. Do not make any mistake about it. The power to grant bounties is the most distinctively protective measure you could possibly adopt, and by adopting it you scrap your record and your pledges, and you deal a blow at the integrity of the Empire.
      Mr. HERBERT SAMUEL: I suppose that in this House there are no hon. Members who are more convinced and active Tariff Reformers than the hon. Member for South Birmingham (Mr. Amery), and the hon. Member for Hereford (Mr. Hewins). It is amusing that today those two hon. Members have both moved Amendments to this Bill seeking—
      Mr. HEWINS: I do not want to interrupt the right hon. Gentleman, but in the few minutes available I beg him not to misrepresent Tariff Reformers
      Mr. HERBERT SAMUEL: I do not think that in these introductory sentences I have misrepresented anybody or anything. Does the hon. Member deny that he is an active, leading, and influential Tariff Reformer, or that the hon. Member for South Birmingham occupies a similar position, or that they are both convinced Tariff Reformers? Yet these are the two hon. Members to whom we have listened to-day moving Amendments to the Bill in speeches in both of which they dwelt upon the inconveniences and drawbacks as regards Ireland of the very system which they wish to introduce between us and—
      Mr. AMERY: The drawbacks as regards our allowing protection in Ireland.
      Mr. HERBERT SAMUEL: In the case of the Irish Government the drawbacks and friction of the very system which they wish to introduce between us and—
      Mr. HEWINS: No.
      Mr. AMERY: No.
      Mr. HERBERT SAMUEL: I do not wish to misrepresent anyone.
      Mr. AMERY: You do. Use more honest arguments.
      Mr. HERBERT SAMUEL: I was going on to say, the system which they wish to introduce into the relations between this country and foreign countries. I think the hon. Member will not deny that he for one is anxious to establish a system of tariff alterations which would affect the relations between ourselves and foreign countries.
      Mr. HEWINS: Is Ireland a foreign country?
      Mr. HERBERT SAMUEL: We have had to-day an instance of the denunciation of sin from quarters where that is not expected.
      Mr. AMERY: Bosh! Produce serious arguments.
      Mr. HERBERT SAMUEL: We are at issue with the hon. Member on this Amendment on two points, one a very important question of wording, and the other the question of merits. As to the first, the hon. Member has worded his Amendment as follows:—
      "The Irish Parliament shall not have power to differentiate or discriminate in levying taxes so as to give bounties on the production or export of goods."
      I have contended that you cannot, by levying taxes, give a bounty; that a bounty is a thing given. The hon. Member disagrees with me and asks me to quote an economic authority. I should be very sorry indeed to set up for a single moment my own authority against that of the hon. Member on a question of economics, to which I know he has given the study of many years; but I will quote to him two authorities, the best I can obtain. They are two dictionaries on economics and commercial subjects, one a fairly old one and the other a recent one. McCulloch's Commercial Dictionary defines "bounty" in this way—
      "A term used in commerce and the arts to signify a premium paid by Government to the producers, the exporters or importers, of certain articles, or to those who employ ships in certain trades."
      Mr. HEWINS: Will the right hon. Gentleman state the date?
      Mr. HERBERT SAMUEL: I said that it was an old one; nevertheless it is still an authority. McCulloch is an old economist of about the period of Ricardo; the date of this edition is 1882; it has been revised. There is no other date in the book. The other authority is Palgrave's Dictionary of Political Economy, and there I find the following definition:—
      "A bounty is in principle something received by the producer in addition to the price received from the consumer through the ordinary operations of the market."
      Mr. HEWINS: Who is the author?
      Mr. HERBERT SAMUEL: I have not time to look at that. It is a long article, but there is nothing in it which in any way differs from that assertion. The hon. Member himself is a contributor to the book; therefore I am sure he will recognise the authority of the volume. Consequently, the hon. Member is, in our view, not entitled to use the term "bounty" at all in this connection. Bounties are not possible by means of the levying of a tax. They are possible if you give a drawback larger than ought to be allowed, but that is limited by the Customs Clauses of the Bill. You cannot give a bounty upon exports, because that is prohibited by a Sub-section of the Bill, and I am quite ready, if necessary, to put in words on Report which will make that intention perfectly clear. The hon. Member says that you can give a preference to one person as against another by taxing one and not taxing the other. I am not quoting the exact words, but that is the substance. Of course, you can. He says that that is contrary to Free Trade. Let me give him two instances from our present system of taxes in this country. You may have two factories, side by side, one a distillery manufacturing whisky, and the other a factory of ginger beer; you tax one, but you do not tax the other. You have a Licence Duty on the distillery, but none on the ginger-beer factory. Yet the hon. Member says that because we maintain this system and because we would allow the Irish Parliament to establish a similar system of taxation, we are committing the whole Liberal party to Protection. I think that is straining words too far.
      Mr. AMERY: It is a gross misrepresentation.
      The CHAIRMAN: The hon. Member has had many opportunities of taking part in the Debate, and he ought to be prepared to listen to views with which he I may not agree.
      Mr. HEWINS: May I point out that the particular case given by the right hon. Gentleman is that of a tax which is contrary to Free Trade principles?
      Mr. HERBERT SAMUEL: I cannot admit that. At all events, no one has yet declared that no Free Trader could be in favour of a tax upon the manufacture of alcohol; but that is, in fact, what the hon. Member is contending. It is the first time that anyone has urged that it is contrary to the principles of Free Trade to tax a particular industry such as the alcohol or liquor trade. Let me give another illustration. (An HON. MEMBER: "What about cocoa?"] We have now a system of taxation of site values and undeveloped land. We tax undeveloped land, but we do not tax land used for agriculture. If the hon. Member's Amendment were inserted in the Bill, the Irish Parliament would not have power to differentiate or discriminate in levying taxes so as to give bounties on the production of goods. A person who uses his land for the purposes of agriculture would accordingly get a preference of the kind the hon. Member wishes to aim at by the Amendment. It appears to me to be a most undue restriction upon the powers of the Irish Parliament to prohibit them from adopting, if they thought fit, a system of taxation believed on other grounds to be open to them, which this House has thought fit to adopt, and which no one until this moment has suggested was in any way contrary to the principles of Free Trade. I have given two particular illustrations; the hon. Member gave us none. [HON. MKMBEKS: "Oh!"] I do not think he gave a single practical instance.
      Mr. HEWINS: The other day.
      Mr. HERBERT SAMUEL: In his speech to-day he did not give even incidentally an illustration.
      Mr. HEWINS: I must protest against what the right hon. Gentleman says. In arguing the point of Order to which I referred in my speech, I deliberately referred to the measures by which bounties are given. In addition, I referred to our own experience and to that of foreign countries. I omitted all those instances from my speech to-night simply because the Government have given us only half an hour in which to discuss this question.
      Mr. HERBERT SAMUEL: It would have been interesting to have had in-
      1104
      stances, because one could have dealt with them one by one.
      Mr. HEWINS: Lack of time.
      Mr. HERBERT SAMUEL: The hon. Member spoke for quite a quarter of an hour. It is true it is not a long time, but it was long enough to have given cogent instances if they had been ready to hand, and we could then have considered the degree of practicability and probability attaching to them. For these reasons I ask the Committee not to accept the Amendment.
      Mr. BONAR LAW: We have only two minutes left, but it is quite long enough to point out that the only argument on which the right hon. Gentleman relies is half-past seven o'clock. He began by objecting to the raising of this question in the form in which it is raised. Owing to our method of discussion it could not be raised in any other way. He gave as an illustration of difference of taxation, confectionery and spirits. He knows perfectly well that that is not the case my hon. Friend meant. If Ireland enables the confectionery trade to be started without having to pay taxes which are paid by all other industries, that is Protection, not against Ireland, but against England, which is competing with Ireland for this trade. It is a fact, and nobody can deny it, that a system of bounties is possible, and that bounties are everywhere regarded, not only as a proof of Protection, but as the worst form of Protection. All economists say so, because they invariably lead, more than any other form, to corruption. The whole sum and substance of what the Government are doing in this matter is that they are determined not to allow any preference for the United Kingdom, as a whole, against foreign countries, but they are doing, and they are ready to do, what Members from Ireland have claimed that, if ever they had the power, they would do, namely, to set up a system of Protection against England and Scotland. [HON. MEMBERS: "NO."] I can read a quotation, even in the short time left, from a speech. It is by the hon. Member, who, I think, is the son of the leader of the Irish party. Speaking in this House, he said:—
      "What we want is Protection, and not against the tariffs of Germany and the United States, but against this country."
      That is what the Government is giving!

      1105
      And, it being after half-past Seven of the clock, the Chairman proceeded pursuant to the Order of the House of the 14th October, to put forthwith the Question on the Amendment already proposed from the Chair.
      Question put, "That those words be there inserted."
      The Committee divided: Ayes, 214; Noes, 325.

      Division No. 328.]

      AYES.

      [7.30 p.m.

      Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

      Goldman, C. S.

      Munro-Ferguson, Rt. Hon. R. C.

      Aitken, Sir William Max

      Goldsmith, Frank

      Neville, Reginald J. N.

      Amery, L. C. M. S.

      Gordon, John (Londonderry, South)

      Newdegate, F. A.

      Anson, Rt. Hon. Sir William R.

      Gordon, Hon. John Edward (Brighton)

      Newman, John R. P.

      Archer-Shee, Major M.

      Goulding, Edward Alfred

      Newton, Harry Kottingham

      Ashley, Wilfrid W.

      Greene, W. R.

      Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield)

      Baird, J. L.

      Gretton, John

      Nield, Herbert

      Balcarres, Lord

      Guinness, Hon. Rupert (Essex, S. E.)

      O'Neill, Hon. A. E. B. (Antrim, Mid.)

      Beldwin, Stanley

      Guinness, Hon. W. E. (Bury S. Edmunds)

      Orde-Powlett, Hon. W. G. A.

      Banbury, Sir Frederick George

      Gwynne, R. S. (Sussex, Eastbourne)

      Parker, Sir Gilbert (Gravesend)

      Barnston, Harry

      Haddock, George Bahr

      Parkes, Ebenezer

      Barrie, H. T.

      Hall, D. B. (Isle of Wight)

      Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington)

      Bathurst, Charles (Wilts, Wilton)

      Hall, Fred (Dulwich)

      Peto, Basil Edward

      Beach, Hon. Michael Hugh Hicks

      Hall, Marshall (E. Toxteth)

      Pole-Carew, Sir R.

      Beckett, Hon. Gervase

      Hamersley, A. St. George

      Pollock, Ernest Murray

      Benn, Arthur Shirley (Plymouth)

      Hamilton, Lord C. J. (Kensington, S.)

      Pryce-Jones, Colonel E.

      Bentinck, Lord H. Cavendish-

      Hamilton, Marquess of (Londonderry)

      Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel

      Beresford, Lord C.

      Hardy, Rt. Hon. Laurence

      Rawson, Colonel R. H.

      Bird, A.

      Harris, Henry Percy

      Remnant, James Farquharson

      Boles, Lieut.-Col. Dennis Fortescue

      Harrison-Broadley, H. B.

      Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall)

      Boscawen, Sir Arthur S. T. Griffith-

      Helmsley, Viscount

      Rolleston, Sir John

      Boyle, William (Norfolk, Mid)

      Henderson, Major H. (Berks, Abingdon)

      Ronaldshay, Earl of

      Boyton, J.

      Herbert, Hon. A. (Somerset, S.)

      Rothschild, Lionel de

      Bull, Sir William James

      Hickman, Col. T. E.

      Royds, Edmund

      Burdett-Coutts, W.

      Hill, Sir Clement L.

      Rutherford, John (Lancs., Darwen)

      Burgoyne, A. H.

      Hills, J. W.

      Rutherford, Watson (L'pool., W. Derby)

      Burn, Colonel C. R.

      Hill-Wood, Samuel

      Salter, Arthur Clavell

      Butcher, J. G.

      Hoare, S. J. G.

      Samuel, Sir Harry (Norwood)

      Campbell, Capt. Duncan F. (Ayr, N.)

      Hohler, G. Fitzroy

      Sanders, Robert A.

      Campbell, Rt. Hon. J. (Dublin Univ.)

      Hope, Harry (Bute)

      Sanderson, Lancelot

      Campion, W. R.

      Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield)

      Sassoon, Sir Philip

      Carlile, Sir Edward Hildred

      Hope, Major J. A. (Midlothian)

      Scott, Leslie (Liverpool, Exchange)

      Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward H.

      Horne, E. (Surrey, Guildford)

      Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone)

      Cassel, Felix

      Horner, Andrew Long

      Smith, Harold (Warrington)

      Castlereagh, Viscount

      Houston, Robert Paterson

      Spear, Sir John Ward

      Cave, George

      Hume-Williams, W. E.

      Stanler, Beville

      Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

      Hunt, Rowland

      Stanley, Hon. G. F. (Preston)

      Cecil, Lord Hugh (Oxford Univ.)

      Hunter, Sir C. R.

      Starkey, John R.

      Cecil, Lord R. (Herts, Hitchin)

      Ingleby, Holcombe

      Steel-Maitland, A. D.

      Chaloner, Col. R. G. W.

      Jardine, E. (Somerset, E.)

      Stewart, Gershom

      Chambers, J.

      Jessel, Captain H. M.

      Strauss, Arthur (Paddington, N.)

      Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry

      Kebty-Fletcher, J. R.

      Swift, Rigby

      Clay, Captain H. H. Spender

      Kerr-Smiley, Peter Kerr

      Sykes, Alan John (Ches., Knutsford)

      Clive, Captain Percy Archer

      Kerry, Earl of

      Sykes, Mark (Hull, Central)

      Clyde, J. Avon

      Kimber, Sir Henry

      Talbot, Lord E.

      Coates, Major Sir Edward Feetham

      Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement

      Terrell, George (Wilts, N. W.)

      Cooper, Richard Ashmole

      Knight, Capt. E. A.

      Terrell, H. (Gloucester)

      Courthope, George Loyd

      Lane-Fox, G. R.

      Thomson, W. Mitchell- (Down, N.)

      Craig, Charles Curtis (Antrim, S.)

      Larmor, Sir J.

      Thynne, Lord Alexander

      Craig, Ernest (Cheshire, Crewe)

      Law, Rt. Hon. A. Bonar (Bootle)

      Tobin, Alfred Aspinall

      Craig, Captain James (Down, E.)

      Lawson, Hon. H. (T. H'mts, Mile End)

      Touche, George Alexander

      Craig, Norman (Kent)

      Lewisham, Viscount

      Tryon, Capt. George Clement

      Craik, Sir Henry

      Locker-Lampson, G. (Salisbury)

      Valentia, Viscount

      Crichton-Stuart, Lord Ninian

      Locker-Lampson, O. (Ramsey)

      Walrond, Hon. Lionel

      Croft, H. P.

      Lockwood, Rt. Hon. Lt.-Col. A. R.

      Ward, Arnold S. (Herts, Watford)

      Dalziel, D. (Brixton)

      Long, Rt. Hon. Walter

      Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent. Mid)

      Denniss, E. R. B.

      Lonsdale, Sir John Brownlee

      White, Major G. D. (Lancs., Southport)

      Dickson, Rt. Hon. Sir C. Scott

      Lowe, Sir F. W. (Birm., Edgbaston)

      Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.)

      Dixon, C. H.

      Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. A. (Hanover Sq.)

      Wills, Sir Gilbert

      Doughty, Sir George

      Lyttelton, Hon. J. C. (Droitwich)

      Wolmer, Viscount

      Duke, Henry Edward

      MacCaw, Wm. J. MacGeagh

      Wood, Hon. E. F. L. (Ripon)

      Eyres-Monsell, B. M.

      Mackinder, H. J.

      Wood, John (Stalybridge)

      Faber, George Denison (Clapham)

      Macmaster, Donald

      Worthington-Evans, L.

      Fell, Arthur

      M'Neill, Ronald (Kent, St. Augustine's)

      Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-

      Fetherstonhaugh, Godfrey

      Magnus, Sir Philip

      Wright, Henry Fitzherbert

      Finlay, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert

      Malcolm, Ian

      Yate, Col. C. E.

      Fisher, Rt. Hon. W. Hayes

      Meysey-Thompson, E. C.

      Yerburgh, Robert A.

      Fleming, Valentine

      Middlemore, John Throgmorton

      Younger, Sir George

      Forster, Henry William

      Mildmay, Francis Bingham

      Foster, Philip Staveley

      Mills, Hon. Charles Thomas

      Gardner, Ernest

      Moore, William

      TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr.

      Gastrell, Major W. H.

      Morrison-Bell, Capt. E. F. (Ashburton)

      Hewins and Mr. Bigland.

      Gibbs, G. A.

      Mount, William Arthur

      NOES.

      Abraham, William (Dublin, Harbour)

      Esslemont, George Birnle

      Lyell, Charles Henry

      Abraham, Rt. Hon. William (Rhondda)

      Falconer, J.

      Lynch, A. A.

      Acland, Francis Dyke

      Farrell, James Patrick

      Macdonald, J, R. (Leicester)

      Adamson, William

      Fenwick, Rt. Hon. Charles

      Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk Burghs)

      Addison, Dr. C.

      Ffrench, Peter

      McGhee, Richard

      Adkins, Sir W. Ryland D.

      Field, William

      Macnamara, Rt. Hon. Dr. T. J.

      Agnew, Sir George William

      Fiennes, Hon. Eustace Edward

      MacNeill, J. G. Swift (Donegal, South)

      Allen, Arthur Acland (Dumbartonshire)

      Fitzgibbon, John

      Macpherson, James Ian

      Allen, Rt. Hon. Charles P. (Stroud)

      Flavin, Michael Joseph

      MacVeagh, Jeremiah

      Arnold, Sydney

      George, Rt. Hon. D. Lloyd

      M'Callum, Sir John M.

      Asquith, Rt. Hon. Herbert Henry

      Gill, A. H.

      M'Curdy, C. A.

      Atherley-Jones, Llewellyn A.

      Ginnell, L.

      M'Kean, John

      Baker, H. T. (Accrington)

      Gladstone, W. G. C.

      McKenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald

      Baker, Joseph A. (Finsbury, E.)

      Glanville, H. J.

      M'Laren, Hon. F. W. S. (Lincs., Spelding)

      Balfour, Sir Robert (Lanark)

      Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford

      M'Laren, Hon. H. D. (Leics.)

      Baring, Sir Godfrey (Barnstaple)

      Greenwood, Granville G. (Peterborough)

      M'Micking, Major Gilbert

      Barlow, Sir John Emmott (Somerset)

      Greenwood, Hamar (Sunderland)

      Manfield, Harry

      Barnes, George N.

      Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward

      Marks, Sir George Croydon

      Barran, Sir J. (Hawick Burghs)

      Griffith, Ellis J.

      Martin, J.

      Barton, W.

      Guest, Hon. Frederick E. (Dorset, E.)

      Mason, David M. (Coventry)

      Beauchamp, Sir Edward

      Gulland, John W

      Masterman, Rt. Hon. C. F. G.

      Beck, Arthur Cecil

      Gwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway)

      Meagher, Michael

      Bentham, G. J.

      Hackett, John

      Meehan, Francis (Leitrim, N. I

      Bethell, Sir J. H.

      Hall, Frederick (Normanton)

      Menzies, Sir Walter

      Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine

      Hancock, J. G.

      Millar, James Duncan

      Black, Arthur W

      Harcourt, Rt. Hon. L. (Rossendale)

      Molloy, M.

      Boland, John Pius

      Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose)

      Molteno, Percy Alport

      Booth, Frederick Handel

      Harmsworth, R. L. (Caithness-shire)

      Mond, Sir Alfred Moritz

      Bowerman, C. W.

      Harvey, A. J. C. (Rochdale)

      Money, L. G. Chiozza

      Boyle, D. (Mayo, N.)

      Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, West)

      Mooney, J. J.

      Brace, William

      Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N. E.)

      Morgan, George Hay

      Brady, P. J.

      Haslam, James (Derbyshire)

      Morrell, Philip

      Brocklehurst, W. B.

      Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth)

      Morison, Hector

      Bryce, J. Annan

      Havelock-Allan, sir Henry

      Morton, Alpheus Cleophas

      Buckmaster, Stanley O.

      Hayden, John Patrick

      Muldoon, John

      Burke, E. Haviland-

      Hayward, Evan

      Murray, Captain Hon. A. C.

      Burns, Rt. Hon. John

      Hazleton, Richard

      Nannetti, Joseph P.

      Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas

      Helme, Sir Norval Watson

      Needham, Christopher

      Buxton, Rt. Hon. Sydney C. (Poplar)

      Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

      Neilson, Francis

      Bytes, Sir William Pollard

      Henderson, J. M. (Aberdeen, W.)

      Nicholson, Sir Charles N. (Doncaster)

      Carr-Gomm, H. W.

      Henry, Sir Charles

      Nolan, Joseph

      Cawley, Sir Frederick (Prestwich)

      Herbert, Col. Sir Ivor (Mon. S.)

      Norton, Captain Cecil W.

      Cawley, Harold T. (Heywood)

      Higham, John Sharp

      Nugent, Sir Walter R.

      Chancellor, H. G.

      Hinds, John

      Nuttall, Harry

      Chapple, Dr. W. A.

      Hobhouse, Rt. Hon. Charles E. H.

      O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

      Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston S.

      Hodge, John

      O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)

      Clancy, John Joseph

      Hogge, James Myles

      O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)

      Clough, William

      Holmes, Daniel Turner

      O'Doherty, Philip

      Clynes, John R.

      Holt, Richard Durning

      O'Donnell, Thomas

      Collins, G. P. (Greenock)

      Hope, John Deans (Haddington)

      O'Dowd, John

      Compton-Rickett, Rt. Hon. Sir J.

      Home, C. Silvester (Ipswich)

      O'Grady, James

      Condon, Thomas Joseph

      Howard, Hon. Geoffrey

      O'Kelly, Edward P. (Wicklow, W.)

      Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.

      Hudson, Walter

      O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N.)

      Cotton, William Francis

      Hughes, Spencer Leigh

      O'Malley, William

      Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth)

      Isaacs, Rt. Hon. Sir Rufus

      O'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh)

      Crawshay-Williams, Eliot

      Jardine, Sir J. (Roxburghshire)

      O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

      Crooks, William

      John, Edward Thomas

      O'Shee, James John

      Crumley, Patrick

      Jones, Rt. Hon. Sir D. Brynmor (Sw'nsea)

      O'Sullivan, Timothy

      Cullinan, J.

      Jones, Edgar (Merthyr Tydvil)

      Palmer, Godfrey Mark

      Dalziel, Rt. Hon. Sir J. H. (Kirkcaldy)

      Jones, Haydn (Merioneth)

      Parker, James (Halifax)

      Davies, E. William (Eifion)

      Jones, J. Towyn (Carmarthen, East)

      Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek)

      Davies, Timothy (Lincs., Louth)

      Jones, Leif Stratten (Notts, Rushcliffe)

      Pearce, William (Limehouse)

      Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.)

      Jones, William (Carnarvonshire)

      Pearson, Hon. Weetman H. M.

      Davies, M. Vaughan- (Cardiganshire)

      Jones, W. S. Glyn- (T. H'mts, Stepney)

      Pease, Rt. Hon. Joseph A. (Rothernam)

      Dawes, J. A.

      Jowett, F. W.

      Philipps, Col. Ivor (Southampton)

      De Forest, Baron

      Joyce, Michael

      Phillips, John (Longford, S.)

      Delany, William

      Keating, M.

      Pointer, Joseph

      Denman, Hon. Richard Douglas

      Kellaway, Frederick George

      Pollard, Sir George H.

      Devlin, Joseph

      Kennedy, Vincent Paul

      Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H.

      Dickinson, W. H.

      Kilbride, Denis

      Power, Patrick Joseph

      Dillon, John

      King, J.

      Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central)

      Donelan, Captain A.

      Lambert, Rt. Hon. G. (Devon, S. Molton)

      Price, Sir Robert J. E. (Norfolk, E.)

      Doris, W.

      Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade)

      Priestley, Sir Arthur (Grantham)

      Duffy, William

      Lardner, James Carrige Rushe

      Priestley, Sir W. E. B. (Bradfard, E.)

      Duncan, J. Hastings (Yorks, Otley)

      Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, West)

      Primrose, Hon. Neil James

      Edwards, Clement (Glamorgan, E.)

      Lawson, Sir W. (Cumb'rld, Cockerm'th)

      Pringle, William M. R.

      Edwards, Sir Francis (Radnor)

      Leach, Charles

      Radford, G. H.

      Elverston, Sir Harold

      Levy, Sir Maurice

      Rattan, Peter Wilson

      Esmonde, Dr. John (Tipperary, N.)

      Lewis, John Herbert

      Raphael, Sir Herbert H.

      Esmonde, Sir Thomas (Wexford)

      Low, Sir F. (Norwich)

      Rea, Rt. Hon. Russell (South Shields)

      Essex, Richard Walter

      Lundon, T.

      Rea, Walter Russell (Scarborough)

      1108

      1109

      Reddy, M.

      Simon, Sir John Allsebrook

      Warner, Sir Thomas Courtenay

      Redmond, John E. (Waterford)

      Smith, Albert (Lancs., Clitheroe)

      Wason, Rt. Hon. E. (Clackmannan)

      Redmond, William (Clare)

      Smith, H. B. L. (Northampton)

      Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney)

      Redmond, William Archer (Tyrone, E.)

      Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.)

      Webb, H.

      Rendall, Athelstan

      Snowden, P.

      Wedgwood, Josiah C.

      Richardson, Albion (Peckham)

      Soames, Arthur Wellesley

      White, J. Dundas (Glasgow, Tradeston)

      Richardson, Thomas (Whitehaven)

      Spicer, Rt. Hon. Sir Albert

      White, Patrick (Meath, North)

      Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)

      Stanley, Albert (Staffs, N. W.)

      Whitehouse, John Howard

      Roberts, Sir J. H. (Denbighs)

      Strauss, Edward A. (Southwark, West)

      Whittaker, Rt. Hon. sir Thomas P.

      Robertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradford)

      Sutherland, J. E.

      Whyte, A. F. (Perth)

      Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside)

      Sutton, John E.

      Wiles, Thomas

      Robinson, Sidney

      Taylor, John W. (Durham)

      Wilkie, Alexander

      Roch, Walter F. (Pembroke)

      Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)

      Williams, J. (Glamorgan)

      Roche, Augustine (Louth)

      Taylor, Thomas (Bolton)

      Williams, Llewelyn (Carmarthen)

      Roche, John (Galway, E.)

      Tennant, Harold John

      Williams, P. (Middlesbrough)

      Roe, Sir Thomas

      Thomas, James Henry

      Williamson, Sir A.

      Rowlands, James

      Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton)

      Wilson, Hon. G. G. (Hull, W.)

      Rowntree, Arnold

      Thorne, William (West Ham)

      Wilson, Rt. Hon. J. W. (Worcs., N.)

      Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter

      Toulmin, Sir George

      Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)

      Russell, Rt. Hon. Thomas W.

      Trevelyan, Charles Philips

      Winfrey, Richard

      Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland)

      Ure, Rt. Hon. Alexander

      Wood, Rt. Hon. T McKinnon, (Glas.)

      Samuel, J. (Stockton)

      Verney, Sir Harry

      Young, Samuel (Cavan, E.)

      Scanian, Thomas

      Wadsworth, John

      Young, W. (Perthshire, E.)

      Schwann, Rt. Hon. Sir C. E.

      Walsh, Stephen (Lancs., Ince)

      Yoxall, Sir James Henry

      Scott, A. MacCallum (Glas., Bridgeton)

      Walton, Sir Joseph

      Seely, Col. Rt. Hon. J. E. B.

      Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent)

      Sheehy, David

      Ward, W. Dudley (Southampton)

      TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr.

      Sherwell, Arthur James

      Wardle, G. J.

      Illingworth and Mr. Wedgwood Benn.

      Shortt, Edward

      Waring, Walter

      The CHAIRMANthen proceeded, successively to put forthwith the Question on Amendments moved by the Government, of which notice had been given, and the Questions necessary to dispose of the business to be concluded at Half-past Seven of the clock at this day's sitting.
      Government Amendment: In Sub-section (1), after the word "tax" ["as an Imperial tax"], to insert the words,
      "and shall not have power to vary, except by way of addition, any Customs Duty levied as an Imperial tax, or any Excise Duty so levied where there is a corresponding Customs Duty."—[Mr. Herbert Samuel.]
      Question put, "That the Amendment be made."
      The Committee divided: Ayes, 324; Noes, 213.

      Division No. 329.]

      AYES.

      [7.44 p.m.

      Abraham, William (Dublin Harbour)

      Bryce, J. Annan

      Delany, William

      Abraham, Rt. Hon. William (Rhondda)

      Buckmaster, Stanley O.

      Denman, Hon. Richard Douglas

      Acland, Francis Dyke

      Burke, E. Haviland-

      Devlin, Joseph

      Adamson, William

      Burns, Rt. Hon. John

      Dickinson, W. H.

      Addison, Dr. Christopher

      Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas

      Dillon, John

      Adkins, Sir W. Ryland D.

      Buxton, Rt. Hon. S. C. (Poplar)

      Donelan, Captain A.

      Agnew, Sir George William

      Byles, Sir William Pollard

      Doris, William

      Allen, Arthur A. (Dumbartonshire)

      Carr-Gomm, H. W.

      Duffy, William J.

      Allen, Rt. Hon. Charles P. (Stroud)

      Cawley, Sir Frederick (Prestwich)

      Duncan, J. Hastings (Yorks, Otley)

      Arnold, Sydney

      Cawley, H. T. (Lancs., Heywood)

      Edwards, Clement (Glamorgan, E.)

      Asquith, Rt. Hon. Herbert Henry

      Chancellor, H. G.

      Edwards, Sir Francis (Radnor)

      Atherley-Jones, Llewellyn A.

      Chapple, Dr. William Allen

      Elverston, Sir Harold

      Baker, H. T. (Accrington)

      Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston S.

      Esmonde, Dr. John (Tipperary, N.)

      Baker, Joseph A. (Finsbury, E.)

      Clancy, John Joseph

      Esmonde, Sir Thomas (Wexford, N.)

      Balfour, Sir Robert (Lanark)

      Clough, William

      Essex, Richard Walter

      Baring, Sir Godfrey (Barnstaple)

      Clynes, J. R.

      Esslemont, George Birnie

      Barlow, Sir John Emmott (Somerset)

      Collins, Godfrey P. (Greenock)

      Falconer, James

      Barnes, George N.

      Compton-Rickett, Rt. Hon. Sir J.

      Farrell, James Patrick

      Barran, Sir J. N. (Hawick)

      Condon, Thomas Joseph

      Fenwick, Rt. Hon. Charles

      Barton, William

      Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.

      Ffrench, Peter

      Beauchamp, Sir Edward

      Cotton, William Francis

      Field, William

      Beck, Arthur Cecil

      Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth)

      Fiennes, Hon. Eustace Edward

      Bentham, George Jackson

      Crawshay-Williams, Eliot

      Fitzgibbon, John

      Bethell, Sir J. H.

      Crooks, William

      Flavin, Michael Joseph

      Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine

      Crumley, Patrick

      George, Rt. Hon. David Lloyd

      Black, Arthur W.

      Cullinan, John

      Gill, A. H.

      Boland, John Plus

      Dalziel, Rt. Hon. Sir J. H. (Kirkcaldy)

      Ginnell, Laurence

      Booth, Frederick Handel

      Davies, Ellis William (Eiflon)

      Gladstone, W. G. C.

      Bowerman, Charles W.

      Davies, Timothy (Lincs., Louth)

      Glanville, H. J.

      Boyle, D. (Mayo, N.)

      Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.)

      Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford

      Brace, William

      Davies, M. Vaughan- (Cardigan)

      Greenwood, Granville G. (Peterborough)

      Brady, Patrick Joseph

      Dawes, James Arthur

      Greenwood, Hamar (Sunderland)

      Brocklehurst, William B.

      De Forest, Baron

      Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward

      Griffith, Ellis J.

      Manfield, Harry

      Roberts, Sir J. H. (Denbighs)

      Guest, Hon. Frederick E. (Dorset, E.)

      Marks, Sir George Croydon

      Robertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradford)

      Gulland, John William

      Martin, Joseph

      Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside)

      Gwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway)

      Mason, David M. (Coventry)

      Robinson, Sidney

      Hackett, John

      Masterman, Rt. Hon. C. F. G.

      Roch, Walter F.

      Hall, F. (Yorks, Normanton)

      Meagher, Michael

      Roche, Augustine (Louth)

      Hancock, J. G.

      Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.)

      Roche, John (Galway, E.)

      Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Lewis (Rossendale)

      Menzies, Sir Walter

      Roe, Sir Thomas

      Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose)

      Millar, James Duncan

      Rowlands, James

      Harmsworth, R. L. (Caithness-shire)

      Molloy, Michael

      Rowntree, Arnold

      Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale)

      Molteno, Percy Alport

      Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter

      Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, W.)

      Mond, Sir Alfred M.

      Russell, Rt. Hon. Thomas W.

      Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N. E.)

      Money, L. G. Chiozza

      Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland)

      Haslam, James (Derbyshire)

      Mooney, John J.

      Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees)

      Haslam, Lewis (Mon.)

      Morgan, George Hay

      Scanian, Thomas

      Havelock-Allan, Sir Henry

      Morrell, Philip

      Schwann, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

      Hayden, John Patrick

      Morison, Hector

      Scott, A. MacCallum (Glas., Bridgeton)

      Hayward, Evan

      Morton, Alpheus Cleophas

      Seely, Col. Rt. Hon. J. E. B.

      Hazleton, Richard

      Muldoon, John

      Sheehy, David

      Helme, Sir Norval Watson

      Munro-Ferguson, Rt. Hon. R. C.

      Sherwell, Arthur James

      Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

      Murray, Captain Hon. Arthur C.

      Shortt, Edward

      Henderson, J. M. (Aberdeen, W.)

      Nannetti, Joseph P.

      Simon, Sir John Allsebrook

      Henry, Sir Charles

      Needham, Christopher T.

      Smith, Albert (Lancs., Clitheroe)

      Herbert, Col. Sir Ivor (Mon., S.)

      Neilson, Francis

      Smyth, Thomas (Leitrim, S.)

      Higham, John Sharp

      Nicholson, Sir Charles N. (Doncaster)

      Snowden, Philip

      Hinds, John

      Nolan, Joseph

      Soames, Arthur Wellesley

      Hobhouse, Rt. Hon. Charles E. H.

      Norton, Captain Cecil W.

      Spicer, Rt. Hon. Sir Albert

      Hodge, John

      Nugent, Sir Walter Richard

      Stanley, Albert (Staffs, N. W.)

      Hogge, James Myles

      Nuttall, Harry

      Strauss, Edward A. (Southwark, West)

      Holmes, Daniel Turner

      O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

      Sutherland, J. E.

      Home, C. Silvester (Ipswich)

      O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)

      Sutton, John E.

      Howard, Hon. Geoffrey

      O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)

      Taylor, Thomas (Bolton)

      Hudson, Walter

      O'Doherty, Philip

      Taylor, John W. (Durham)

      Hughes, S. L.

      O'Donnell, Thomas

      Taylor, T. C. (Radcliffe)

      Isaacs, Rt. Hon. Sir Rufus

      O'Dowd, John

      Tennant, Harold John

      Jardine, Sir J. (Roxburgh)

      Ogden, Fred

      Thomas, James Henry

      John, Edward Thomas

      O'Grady, James

      Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton)

      Jones, Rt. Hon. Sir D. Brynmor (Sw'nsea)

      O'Kelly, Edward P. (Wicklow, W.)

      Thorne, William (West Ham)

      Jones, Edgar (Merthyr Tydvil)

      O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N.)

      Toulmin, Sir George

      Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)

      O'Malley, William

      Trevelyan, Charles Philips

      Jones, J. Towyn (Carmarthen, East)

      O'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, S.)

      Ure, Rt. Hon. Alexander

      Jones, Leif Stratten (Notts, Rushcliffe)

      O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

      Verney, Sir Harry

      Jones, William (Carnarvonshire)

      O'Shee, James John

      Wadsworth, J.

      Jones, W. S. Glyn- (T. H'mts., Stepney)

      O'Sullivan, Timothy

      Walsh, Stephen (Lancs., Ince)

      Jowett, F. W.

      Palmer, Godfrey Mark

      Walton, Sir Joseph

      Joyce, Michael

      Parker, James (Halifax)

      Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent)

      Keating, Matthew

      Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek)

      Ward, W. Dudley (Southampton)

      Kellaway, Frederick George

      Pearce, William (Limehouse)

      Wardle, George J.

      Kennedy, Vincent Paul

      Pearson, Hon. Weetman H. M.

      Waring, Walter

      Kilbride, Denis

      Pease, Rt. Hon. Joseph A. (Rotherham)

      Warner, Sir Thomas Courtenay

      King, Joseph

      Philipps, Col. Ivor (Southampton)

      Wason, Rt. Hon. E. (Clackmannan)

      Lambert, Rt. Hon. G. (Devon, S. Molton)

      Phillips, John (Longford, S.)

      Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney)

      Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade)

      Pirie, Duncan V.

      Webb, H.

      Lardner, J. C. R.

      Pointer, Joseph

      Wedgwood, Josiah C.

      Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, West)

      Pollard, Sir George H.

      White, J. Dundas (Glasgow, Tradeston)

      Lawson, Sir W. (Cumb'rld, Cockerm'th)

      Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H.

      White, Patrick (Meath, North)

      Leach, Charles

      Power, Patrick Joseph

      Whitehouse, John Howard

      Lewis, John Herbert

      Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central)

      Whittaker, Rt. Hon. Sir Thomas P.

      Low, Sir F. (Norwich)

      Price, Sir Robert J. (Norfolk, E.)

      Whyte, Alexander F.

      Lundon, Thomas

      Priestley, Sir Arthur (Grantham)

      Wiles, Thomas

      Lyell, Charles Henry

      Priestley, Sir W. E. B. (Bradford, E.)

      Wilkie, Alexander

      Lynch, Arthur Alfred

      Primrose, Hon. Neil James

      Williams, J. (Glamorgan)

      Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester)

      Pringle, William M. R.

      Williams, Llewelyn (Carmarthen)

      Macdonald, P. M. (Falkirk Burghs)

      Radford, George Heynes

      Williams, P. (Middlesbrough)

      McGhee, Richard

      Raffan, Peter Wilson

      Williamson, Sir Archibald

      Macnamara, Rt. Hon. Dr. T. J.

      Raphael, Sir Herbert H.

      Wilson, Hon. G. G. (Hull, W.)

      MacNeill, J. G. Swift (Donegal, South)

      Rea, Rt. Hon. Russell (South Shields)

      Wilson, Rt. Hon. J. W. (Worcs., N.)

      Macpherson, James Ian

      Rea, Walter Russell (Scarborough)

      Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)

      MacVeagh, Jeremiah

      Reddy, Michael

      Winfrey, Richard

      M'Callum, Sir John M.

      Redmond, John E. (Waterford)

      Wood, Rt. Hon. T. McKinnnon (Glas.)

      M'Curdy, C. A.

      Redmond, William (Clare, E.)

      Young, Samuel (Cavan, E.)

      M'Kean, John

      Redmond, William Archer (Tyrone, E.)

      Young, William (Perth, East)

      McKenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald

      Rendall, Athelstan

      Yoxall, Sir James Henry

      M'Laren, Hon. H. D. (Leics.)

      Richardson, Albion (Peckham)

      M'Laren, Hon. F. W. S. (Lincs., Spalding)

      Richardson, Thomas (Whitehaven)

      TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr.

      M'Micking, Major Gilbert

      Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)

      Illingworth and Mr. Wedgwood Benn.

      NOES.

      Aitken, Sir William Max

      Archer-Shee, Major Martin

      Baird, John Lawrence

      Amery, L. C. M. S.

      Ashley, W. W.

      Balcarres, Lord

      Anson, Rt. Hon. Sir William R.

      Astor, Waldorf

      Baldwin, Stanley

      1112

      1113

      Banbury, Sir Frederick George

      Gretton, John

      Newton, Harry Kottingham

      Barnston, Harry

      Guinness, Hon. Rupert (Essex, S. E.)

      Nicholson, William G. (Petersfieid)

      Barrie, H. T.

      Guinness, Hon. W. E. (Bury S. Edmunds)

      Nield, Herbert

      Bathurst, Charles (Wilts, Wilton)

      Gwynne, R. S. (Sussex, Eastbourne)

      O'Neill, Hon. A. E. B. (Antrim, Mid)

      Beach, Hon. Michael Hugh Hicks

      Haddock, George Bahr

      Orde-Powlett, Hon. W. G. A.

      Beckett, Hon. Gervase

      Hall, D. B. (Isle of Wight)

      O'Shee, James John

      Benn, Arthur Shirley (Plymouth)

      Hall, Fred (Dulwich)

      Parker, Sir Gilbert (Gravesend)

      Bentinck, Lord Henry Cavendish-

      Hall, Marshall (E. Toxteth)

      Parkes, Ebenezer

      Beresford, Lord Charles

      Hamersley, Alfred St. George

      Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington)

      Bigland, Alfred

      Hamilton, Lord C. J. (Kensington, s.)

      Peto, Basil Edward

      Bird, Alfred

      Hamilton, Marquess of (Londonderry)

      Pole-Carew, Sir R.

      Boles, Lieut.-Col. Dennis Fortescue

      Hardy, Rt. Hon. Laurence

      Pollock, Ernest Murray

      Boscawen, Sir Arthur S. T. Griffith-

      Harris, Henry Percy

      Pryce-Jones, Col. E.

      Boyle, William (Norfolk, Mid)

      Harrison-Broadley, H. B.

      Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel

      Boyton, James

      Helmsley, Viscount

      Rawson, Col. Richard H.

      Bull, Sir William James

      Henderson, Major H. (Berks, Abingdon)

      Remnant, James Farquharson

      Burdett-Coutts, William

      Herbert, Hon. A. (Somerset, S.)

      Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall)

      Burgoyne, A. H.

      Hewins, William Albert Samuel

      Rolleston, Sir John

      Burn, Col. C. R.

      Hickman, Col. Thomas E.

      Ronaldshay, Earl of

      Butcher, J. G.

      Hill, Sir Clement L.

      Rothschild, Lionel de

      Campbell, Captain Duncan F. (Ayr, N.)

      Hills, John Walter

      Royds, Edmund

      Campbell, Rt. Hon. J. (Dublin Univ.)

      Hill-Wood, Samuel

      Rutherford, John (Lancs., Darwen)

      Campion, W. H.

      Hoare, S. J. G.

      Rutherford, Watson (L'pool, W. Derby)

      Carlile, Sir Edward Hildred

      Hohler, Gerald Fitzroy

      Salter, Arthur Clavell

      Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward H.

      Hope, Harry (Bute)

      Samuel, Sir Harry (Norwood)

      Cassel, Felix

      Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield)

      Sanders, Robert Arthur

      Castlereagh, Viscount

      Hope, Major J. A. (Midlothian)

      Sanderson, Lancelot

      Cave, George

      Horner, A. L.

      Sassoon, Sir Philip

      Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

      Houston, Robert Paterson

      Scott, Leslie (Liverpool, Exchange)

      Cecil, Lord Hugh (Oxford University)

      Hume-Williams, William Ellis

      Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

      Cecil, Lord R. (Herts, Hitchin)

      Hunt, Rowland

      Smith, Harold (Warrington)

      Chaloner, Col. R. G. W.

      Hunter, Sir Charles Rodk.

      Spear, Sir John Ward

      Chambers, J.

      Ingleby, Holcombe

      Stanier, Beville

      Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry

      Jardine, Ernest (Somerset, East)

      Stanley, Hon. G. F. (Preston)

      Clay, Captain H. H, Spender

      Jessel, Captain H. M.

      Starkey, John R.

      Clive, Captain Percy Archer

      Kebty-Fletcher, J. R.

      Steel-Maitland, A. D.

      Clyde, James Avon

      Kerr-Smiley, Peter Kerr

      Stewart, Gershom

      Coates, Major Sir Edward Feetham

      Kerry, Earl of

      Strauss, Edward A. (Southwark, West)

      Cooper, Richard Ashmole

      Kimber, Sir Henry

      Swift, Rigby

      Courthope, George Loyd

      Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement

      Sykes, Alan John (Ches., Knutsford)

      Craig, Charles Curtis (Antrim, S.)

      Knight, Captain Eric Ayshford

      Sykes, Mark (Hull, Central)

      Craig, Ernest (Cheshire, Crewe)

      Lane-Fox, G. R.

      Talbot, Lord E.

      Craig, Captain James (Down, E.)

      Larmor, Sir J.

      Terrell, G. (Wilts, N. W.)

      Craig, Norman (Kent, Thanet)

      Law, Rt. Hon. A. Bonar (Bootle)

      Terrell, Henry (Gloucester)

      Craik, Sir Henry

      Lawson. Hon. H. (T. H'mts., Mile End)

      Thomson, W. Mitchell- (Down, N.)

      Crichton-Stuart, Lord Ninian

      Lewisham, Viscount

      Thynne, Lord Alexander

      Croft, Henry Page

      Lloyd, George Ambrose

      Tobin, Alfred Aspinall

      Dalziel, Davison (Brixton)

      Locker-Lampson, G. (Salisbury)

      Touche, George Alexander

      Denniss, E. R. B.

      Locker-Lampson, O. (Ramsey)

      Tryon, Captain George Clement

      Dickson, Rt. Hon. C. Scott

      Lockwood, Rt. Hon. Lt.-Col. A. R.

      Valentia, Viscount

      Dixon, C. H.

      Long, Rt. Hon. Walter

      Walrond, Hon. Lionel

      Doughty, Sir George

      Lonsdale. Sir John Brownlee

      Ward, A. S. (Herts, Watford)

      Duke, Henry Edward

      Lowe, Sir F. W. (Birm., Edgbaston)

      Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid.)

      Eyres-Monsell, S. M.

      Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. A. (S. Geo., Han. S.)

      White, Major G. D. (Lancs., Southport)

      Faber, George D. (Clapham)

      Lyttelton, Hon. J. C. (Droitwich)

      Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset, W.)

      Fetherstonhaugh, Godfrey

      MacCaw, Wm. J. MacGeagh

      Wills, Sir Gilbert

      Finlay, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert

      Mackinder, H. J.

      Winterton, Earl

      Fisher, Rt. Hon. W. Hayes

      Macmaster, Donald

      Wolmer, Viscount

      Fleming, Valentine

      McNeill, Ronald (Kent, St. Augustine's)

      Wood, Hon. E. F. L. (Ripon)

      Forster, Henry William

      Magnus, Sir Philip

      Wood, John (Stalybridge)

      Foster, Philip Staveley

      Malcolm, Ian

      Worthington-Evans, L.

      Gardner, Ernest

      Moysey-Thompson, E. C,

      Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-

      Gastrell, Major W. H.

      Mildmay, Francis Bingham

      Wright, Henry Fitzherbert

      Gibbs, George Abraham

      Moore, William

      Yate, Col. C. E.

      Goldman, C. S.

      Morrison-Bell, Cant. E. F. (Ashburton)

      Yerburgh, Robert A.

      Goldsmith, Frank

      Mount, William Arthur

      Younger, Sir George

      Gordon, John (Londonderry, South)

      Neville, Reginald J. N.

      Gordon, Hon. John Edward (Brighton)

      Newdegate, F. A.

      TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr.

      Goulding, Edward Alfred

      Newman, John R. P.

      Middlemore and Mr. Fell.

      Greene, Walter Raymond

      Government Amendment: At end of Sub-section (2), add the following new Sub-section:—
      "(c) The power of the Irish Parliament to vary an Imperial tax, so far as Income Tax (not including Super-tax) is concerned, shall only be exercised so as to alter the conditions under which any exemption, abate-
      1114
      ment, or relief from the tax may be granted to persons resident in Ireland without varying the rate of the tax, and, so far as any Customs Duty or any Death Duty is concerned, shall only be exercised so as to vary the rate of the duty without otherwise altering the provisions with respect to the duty, or dis-

      1115
      criminating in that variation between persons, articles, or property, and where the duty is one of two or more correlated duties, or is a duty levied at a varying rate, shall not be exercised without varying proportionately all the correlated duties or
      all the rates of duties."—[Mr. Herbert Samuel.]
      Question put, "That the Amendment be made."
      The Committee divided: Ayes, 319; Noes, 210.

      Division No. 330.]

      AYES.

      [7.55 p.m.

      Abraham, William (Dublin, Harbour)

      Donelan, Captain A.

      Jones, William (Carnarvonshire)

      Abraham, Rt. Hon. William (Rhondda)

      Doris, William

      Jones, W. S. Glyn- (T. H'mts, Stepney)

      Acland, Francis Dyke

      Duffy, William J.

      Jowett, F. W.

      Adamson, William

      Duncan, J. Hastings (Yorks, Otley)

      Joyce, Michael

      Addison, Dr. Christopher

      Edwards, Clement (Glamorgan, E.)

      Keating, Matthew

      Adkins, Sir W. Ryland D.

      Edwards, Sir Francis (Radnor)

      Kellaway, Frederick George

      Agnew, Sir George William

      Edwards, John Hugh (Glamorgan, Mid)

      Kennedy, Vincent Paul

      Allen, Arthur A. (Dumbartonshire)

      Esmonde, Dr. John (Tipperary, N.)

      Kilbride, Denis

      Alien, Rt. Hon. Charles P. (Stroud)

      Esmonde, Sir Thomas (Wexford, N.)

      King, Joseph

      Arnold, Sydney

      Essex, Richard Walter

      Lambert, Rt. Hon. G. (Devon, S. Molton)

      Asquith, Rt. Hon. Herbert Henry

      Esslemont, George Birnle

      Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade)

      Atherley-Jones, Llewellyn A.

      Falconer, James

      Lardner, James Carrige Rushe

      Baker, H. T. (Accrington)

      Farrell, James Patrick

      Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, West)

      Baker, Joseph A. (Finsbury, E.)

      Fenwick, Rt. Hon. Charles

      Lawson, Sir W. (Cumb'rid, Coekerm'th)

      Balfour, Sir Robert (Lanark)

      Ffrench, Peter

      Leach, Charles

      Baring, Sir Godfrey (Barnstaple)

      Field, William

      Lewis, John Herbert

      Barlow, Sir John Emmott (Somerset)

      Fiennes, Hon. Eustace Edward

      Low, Sir F. (Norwich)

      Barnes, George N.

      Fitzgibbon, John

      Lundon, Thomas

      Barran, Sir J. (Hawick Burghs)

      Flavin, Michael Joseph

      Lyell, Charles Heury

      Barton, William

      Gill, A. H.

      Lynch, Arthur Alfred

      Beauchamp, Sir Edward

      Ginnell, Laurence

      Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester)

      Bentham, George Jackson

      Gladstone, W. G. C.

      Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk Burghs)

      Bethell, Sir J. H.

      Glanville, Harold James

      McGhee, Richard

      Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine

      Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford

      Macnamara, Rt. Hon. Dr. T. J.

      Black, Arthur W.

      Greenwood, Granville G. (Peterborough)

      MacNeill, J. G. Swift (Donegal, South)

      Boland, John Plus

      Greenwood, Hamar (Sunderland)

      Macpherson, James Ian

      Booth, Frederick Handel

      Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward

      MacVeagh, Jeremiah

      Bowerman, Charles W.

      Griffith, Ellis J.

      M'Callum, Sir John M.

      Boyle, D. (Mayo, N.)

      Guest, Hon. Frederick E. (Dorset, E.)

      M'Curdy, C. A.

      Brace, William

      Gulland, John William

      McKenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald

      Brady, Patrick Joseph

      Gwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway)

      M'Laren, Hon. H. D. (Leics.)

      Brocklehurst, William B.

      Hackett, John

      M'Laren, Hon. F. W. S. (Lincs., Spalding)

      Bryce, J. Annan

      Hall, Frederick (Normanton)

      M'Micking, Major Gilbert

      Buckmaster, Stanley O.

      Hancock, J. G.

      Manfield, Harry

      Burke, E. Haviland-

      Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Lewis (Rossendale)

      Marks, Sir George Croydon

      Burns, Rt. Hon. John

      Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose)

      Martin, Joseph

      Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas

      Harmsworth, R. L. (Caithness-shire)

      Mason, D. M. (Coventry)

      Buxton, Rt. Hon. Sydney C. (Poplar)

      Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale)

      Meagher, Michael

      Byles, Sir William Pollard

      Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, W.)

      Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.)

      Carr-Gomm, H. W.

      Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N.E.)

      Menzies, sir Walter

      Cawley, Sir Frederick (Prestwich)

      Haslam, James (Derbyshire))

      Millar, James Duncan

      Cawley, H. T. (Lancs., Heywood)

      Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth)

      Molloy, Michael

      Chancellor, H. G.

      Havelock-Allan, Sir Henry

      Molteno, Percy Alport

      Chapple, Dr. William Allen

      Hayden, John Patrick

      Mond, Sir Alfred M.

      Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston S.

      Hayward, Evan

      Money, L. G. Chiozza

      Clancy, John Joseph

      Hazleton, Richard

      Mooney, John J.

      Clough, William

      Helme, Sir Norval Watson

      Morgan, George Hay

      Clynes, John R.

      Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

      Morrell, Philip

      Collins, Godfrey P. (Greenock)

      Henderson, J. M. (Aberdeen, W.)

      Morison, Hector

      Compton-Rickett, Rt. Hon. Sir J.

      Henry, Sir Charles

      Morton, Alpheus Cleophas

      Condon, Thomas Joseph

      Herbert, Col. Sir Ivor (Mon. S.)

      Muldoon, John

      Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.

      Higham, John Sharp

      Munro-Ferguson, Rt. Hon. R. C.

      Cotton, William Francis

      Hinds, John

      Murray, Captain Hon. Arthur C.

      Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth)

      Hobhouse, Rt. Hon. Charles E. H.

      Nannetti, Joseph P.

      Crawshay-Williams, Eliot

      Hodge, John

      Needham, Christopher T.

      Crooks, William

      Hogge, James Myles

      Neilson, Francis

      Crumley, Patrick

      Holmes, Daniel Turner

      Nicholson, Sir Charles N. (Doncaster)

      Cullinan, John

      Hope, John Deans (Haddington)

      Nolan, Joseph

      Dalziel, Rt. Hon. Sir J. H. (Kirkcaldy)

      Home, Charles Silvester (Ipswich)

      Norton, Captain Cecil W.

      Davies, Ellis William (Eifion)

      Howard, Hon. Geoffrey

      Nugent, Sir Walter Richard

      Davies, Timothy (Lincs., Louth)

      Hudson, Walter

      Nuttall, Harry

      Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.)

      Hughes, Spencer Leigh

      O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

      Davies, M. Vaughan- (Cardigan)

      Isaacs, Rt. Hon. Sir Rufus

      O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)

      Dawes, James Arthur

      Jardine, Sir J. (Roxburgh)

      O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)

      De Forest, Baron

      John, Edward Thomas

      O'Doherty, Philip

      Delany, William

      Jones, Rt. Hon. Sir D. Brynmor (Sw'nsea)

      O'Donnell, Thomas

      Denman, Hon. Richard Douglas

      Jones, Edgar (Merthyr Tydvll)

      O'Dowd, John

      Devlin, Joseph

      Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)

      Ogden, Fred

      Dickinson, W. H.

      Jones, J. Towyn (Carmarthen, East)

      O'Grady, James

      Dillon, John

      Jones, Leif Stratten (Notts, Rushcliffe)

      O'Kelly, Edward P. (Wicklow, W.)

      Q'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N.)

      Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside)

      Trevelyan, Charles Philips

      O'Malley, William

      Robinson, Sidney

      Ure, Rt. Hon. Alexander

      O'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, S.)

      Roch, Walter F.

      Verney, Sir Harry

      O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

      Roche, Augustine (Louth)

      Wadsworth, J.

      O'Shee, James John

      Roche, John (Galway, E.)

      Walsh, Stephen (Lancs., Ince)

      O'Sullivan, Timothy

      Roe, Sir Thomas

      Walton, Sir Joseph

      Palmer, Godfrey Mark

      Rowlands, James

      Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent)

      Parker, James (Halifax)

      Rowntree, Arnold

      Ward, W. Dudley (Southampton)

      Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek)

      Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter

      Wardle, George J.

      Pearce, William (Limehouse)

      Russell, Rt. Hon. Thomas W.

      Waring, Walter

      Pearson, Hon. Weetman H. M.

      Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland)

      Warner, Sir Thomas Courtenay

      Pease, Rt. Hon. Joseph A. (Rotherham)

      Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees)

      Wason, Rt. Hon. E. (Clackmannan)

      Phillips, John (Longford, S.)

      Scanlan, Thomas

      Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney)

      Pirie, Duncan V.

      Scott, A. MacCallum (Glas., Bridgeton)

      Webb, H.

      Pointer, Joseph

      Seely, Col. Rt. Hon. J. E. B.

      Wedgwood, Josiah C.

      Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H.

      Sheehy, David

      White, J. Dundas (Glasgow, Tradeston)

      Power, Patrick Joseph

      Sherwell, Arthur James

      White, Patrick (Meath, North)

      Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central)

      Shortt, Edward

      Whitehouse, John Howard

      Price, Sir Robert J. (Norfolk, E.)

      Simon, Sir John Allsebrook

      I Whittaker, Rt. Hon. Sir Thomas P.

      Priestley, Sir Arthur (Grantham)

      Smith, Albert (Lancs., Clitheroe)

      Whyte, Alexander F.

      Priestley, Sir W. E. B. (Bradford, E.)

      Smith, H B. L. (Northampton)

      Wiles, Thomas

      Primrose, Hon. Neil James

      Smyth, Thomas (Leitrim, S.)

      Wilkie, Alexander

      Pringle, William M. R.

      Snowden, Philip

      Williams, John (Glamorgan)

      Radford, George Heynes

      Soames, Arthur Wellesley

      Williams, Llewelyn (Carmarthen)

      Raffan, Peter Wilson

      Spicer, Rt. Hon. Sir Albert

      Williams, P. (Middlesbrough)

      Raphael, Sir Herbert H.

      Stanley, Albert (Staffs, N.W.)

      Williamson, Sir A.

      Rea, Rt. Hon. Russell (South Shields)

      Strauss, Edward A. (Southwark, West)

      Wilson, Hon. G. G. (Hull, W.)

      Rea, Walter Russell (Scarborough)

      Sutherland, J. E.

      Wilson, Rt. Hon. J. W. (Worcs., N.)

      Reddy, Michael

      Sutton, John E.

      Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)

      Redmond, John E. (Waterford)

      Taylor, John W. (Durham)

      Winfrey, Richard

      Redmond, William (Clare, E.)

      Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)

      Wood, Rt. Hon. T. Mckinnon (Glas.)

      Redmond, William Archer (Tyrone, E.)

      Taylor, Thomas (Bolton)

      Young, Samuel (Cavan, E.)

      Rendall, Athelstan

      Tennant, Harold John

      Young, William (Perth, East)

      Richardson, Albion (Peckham)

      Thomas, J. H.

      Yoxall, Sir James Henry

      Richardson, Thomas (Whitehaven)

      Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton)

      Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)

      Thorne, William (West Ham)

      TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr.

      Roberts, Sir J. H. (Denbighs)

      Toulmin, Sir George

      Illingworth and Mr. Wedgwood Benn.

      Robertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradford)

      NOES.

      Aitken, Sir William Max

      Clay, Captain H. H. Spender

      Hall, Marshall, (E. Toxteth)

      Amery, L. C. M. S.

      Clive, Captain Percy Archer

      Hamersley, A. St. George

      Anson, Rt. Hon. Sir William R.

      Clyde, James Avon

      Hamilton, Lord C. J. (Kensington, S.)

      Archer, Shee, Major Martin

      Coates, Major Sir Edward Feetham

      Hamilton, Marquess of (Londonderry)

      Ashley, W. W.

      Cooper, Richard Ashmole

      Hardy, Rt. Hon. Laurence

      Astor, Waldorf

      Courthope, George Loyd

      Harris, Henry Percy

      Baird, John Lawrence

      Craig, Charles Curtis (Antrim, S.)

      Harrison-Broadley, H. B,

      Balcarres, Lord

      Craig, Ernest (Cheshire, Crewe)

      Helmsley, Viscount

      Baldwin, Stanley

      Craig, Captain James (Down, E.)

      Henderson, Major H. (Berks, Abingdon)

      Banbury, Sir Frederick George

      Craig, Norman (Kent, Thanet)

      Herbert, Hon. A. (Somerset, S.)

      Barnston, Harry

      Crichton-Stuart, Lord Ninian

      Hewins, William Albert Samuel

      Barrie, H. T.

      Croft, Henry Page

      Hickman, Colonel T. E.

      Bathurst, Charles (Wilts, Wilton)

      Dalziel, Davison (Brixton)

      Hill, Sir Clement L.

      Beach, Hon. Michael Hugh Hicks

      Denniss, E. R. B.

      Hills, J. W.

      Beckett, Hon. Gervase

      Dickson, Rt. Hon. C. Scott

      Hill-Wood, S.

      Benn, Arthur Shirley (Plymouth)

      Dixon, C. H.

      Hoare, Samuel John Gurney

      Bentinck, Lord H. Cavendish-

      Doughty, Sir George

      Hohler, Gerald Fitzroy

      Beresford, Lord Charles

      Duke, Henry Edward

      Hope, Harry (Bute)

      Bigland, Alfred

      Eyres-Monsell, B. M.

      Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield)

      Bird, Alfred

      Faber, George Denison (Clapham)

      Hope, Major J. A. (Midlothian)

      Boles, Lieut.-Col. Dennis Fortescue

      Fell, Arthur

      Horner, A. L.

      Boscawen, Sir A. T. Griffith-

      Fetherstonhaugh, Godfrey

      Houston, Robert Paterson

      Boyle, William (Norfolk, Mid)

      Finlay, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert

      Hume-Williams, W. E.

      Boyton, James

      Fisher, Rt. Hon. W. Hayes

      Hunt, Rowland

      Bull, Sir William James

      Fleming, Valentine

      Hunter, Sir Charles Rodk.

      Burdett-Coutts, W.

      Forster, Henry William

      Ingleby, Holcombe

      Burgoyne, Alan Hughes

      Foster, Philip Staveley

      Jardine, Ernest (Somerset, East)

      Burn, Col. C. R.

      Gardner, Ernest

      Jessel, Captain H. M.

      Butcher, John George

      Gastrell, Major W. H.

      Kebty-Fletcher, J. R.

      Campbell, Captain Duncan F. (Ayr, N.)

      Gibbs, George Abraham

      Kerr-Smiley, Peter Kerr

      Campbell, Rt. Hon. J. (Dublin Univ.)

      Goldman, C. S.

      Kerry, Earl of

      Campion, W. R.

      Goldsmith, Frank

      Kimber, Sir Henry

      Carlile, Sir Edward Hildred

      Gordon, Hon, John Edward (Brighton)

      Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement

      Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward H.

      Gordon, John (Londonderry, South)

      Knight, Captain Eric Ayshford

      Cassel, Felix

      Goulding, Edward Alfred

      Lane-Fox, G. R,

      Castlereagh, Viscount

      Greene, Walter Raymond

      Larmor, Sir J.

      Cave, George

      Gretton, John

      Law, Rt. Hon. A. Bonar (Bootle)

      Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

      Guinness, Hon. Rupert (Essex, S.E.)

      Lawson, Hon. H. (T. H'mts., Mile End)

      Cecil, Lord R. (Herts, Hitchin)

      Guinness, Hon. W. E. (Bury S. Edmunds)

      Lewisham, Viscount

      Chaloner, Colonel R. G. W.

      Gwynne, R. S. (Sussex, Eastbourne)

      Lloyd, G. A.

      Chambers, J.

      Hall, D. B. (Isle of Wight)

      Locker-Lampson, G. (Salisbury)

      Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry

      Hall, Fred (Dulwich)

      Locker-Lampson, O. (Ramsey)

      1118

      1119

      Lockwood, Rt. Hon. Lt.-Col. A. R.

      Peto, Basil Edward

      Sykes, Alan John (Ches., Knutsford)

      Long, Rt. Hon. Walter

      Pole-Carew, Sir R.

      Sykes, Mark (Hull, Central)

      Lonsdale, Sir John Brownlee

      Pollock, Ernest Murray

      Talbot, Lord E.

      Lowe, Sir F. W. (Birm., Edgbaston)

      Pryce-Jones, Col. E.

      Terrell, G. (Wilts, N.W.)

      Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. A. (S. Gee. Han. S.)

      Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel

      Terrell, Henry (Gloucester)

      Lyttelton, Hon. J. C. (Droitwich)

      Rawson, Colonel Richard H.

      Thomson, W. Mitchell- (Down, North)

      MacCaw, Wm. J. MacGeagh

      Remnant, James Farquharson

      Thynne, Lord A.

      Mackinder, Halford J.

      Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall)

      Tobin, Alfred Aspinall

      Macmaster, Donald

      Rolleston, Sir John

      Touche, George Alexander

      M'Neill, Ronald (Kent, St. Augustine's)

      Ronaldshay, Earl of

      Tryon, Captain George Clement

      Magnus, Sir Philip

      Rothschild, Lionel de

      Valentia, Viscount

      Meysey-Thompson, E. C.

      Royds, Edmund

      Walrond, Hon. Lionel

      Middlemore, John Throgmorton

      Rutherford, John (Lancs., Darwen)

      Ward, A. S. (Herts, Watford)

      Mildmay, Francis Bingham

      Rutherford, W. (Liverpool, W. Derby)

      Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid)

      Moore, William

      Salter, Arthur Clavell

      White, Major G. D. (Lancs., Southport)

      Morrison-Bell, Capt. E. F. (Ashburton)

      Samuel, Sir Harry (Norwood)

      Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset, W.)

      Mount, William Arthur

      Sanders, Robert Arthur

      Wills, Sir Gilbert

      Neville, Reginald J. N.

      Sanderson, Lancelot

      Winterton, Earl

      Newdegate, F. A.

      Sassoon, Sir Philip

      Wolmer, Viscount

      Newman, John R. P.

      Scott, Leslie (Liverpool, Exchange)

      Wood, Hon. E. F. L. (Yorks, Ripon)

      Newton, Harry Kottingham

      Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, w.)

      Worthington-Evans, L.

      Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield)

      Smith, Harold (Warrington)

      Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-

      Nield, Herbert

      Spear, Sir John Ward

      Wright, Henry Fitzherbert

      Norton-Griffiths, J.

      Stanier, Beville

      Yate, Col. C. E.

      O'Neill, Hon. A. E. B. (Antrim, Mid)

      Stanley, Hon. G. F. (Preston)

      Yerburgh, Robert A.

      Orde-Powlett, Hon. W. G. A.

      Starkey, John R.

      Younger, Sir George

      Parker, Sir Gilbert (Gravesend)

      Steel-Maitland, A. D.

      Parkes, Ebenezer

      Strauss, E. A. (Southwark, W.)

      TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr.

      Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington)

      Swift, Rigby

      Stewart and Mr. J. Wood.

      Government Amendment: In Sub-section (1), at the end of paragraph (d), to leave out the words "Excise restrictions," in order to insert instead thereof, the words
      "revenue restrictions, or any variation of Customs or Excise drawbacks or allowances which woud cause the amount of drawback or allowance payable in respect of any article to be more than reasonably sufficient, in the opinion of the Joint Exchequer Board, to cover the duty paid thereon, and any expenses due to revenue restrictions,"—[Mr. Herbert Samuel.]
      Question put, "That the Amendment be made."
      Mr. NORMAN CRAIG(seated and covered): I beg, Sir, to ask, on a point of Order, whether it is not possible so to improve the instrument known as the guillotine that it may be possible to Closure by one blow a series of Amendments and Clauses, so that hon. Members, being prohibited from opportunity of speech, may be relieved from the necessity of prolonged pedestrian exercise, and so that the solemn farce of Divisions without discussion may not be unduly overdone?
      The Committee divided: Ayes, 316; Noes, 207.

      Division No. 331.]

      AYES.

      [8.10 p.m.

      Abraham, William (Dublin, Harbour)

      Boyle, D. (Mayo, N.)

      Crooks, William

      Abraham, Rt. Hon. William (Rhondda)

      Brace, William

      Crumley, Patrick

      Acland, Francis Dyke

      Brady, P. J.

      Cullinan, J.

      Adamson, William

      Brocklehurst, W. B.

      Dalziel, Rt. Hon. Sir J. H. (Kirkcaldy)

      Addison, Dr. C.

      Bryce, J. Annan

      Davies, Ellis William (Eifion)

      Adkins, Sir W Ryland D.

      Buckmaster, Stanley O.

      Davies, Timothy (Lincs., Louth)

      Agnew, Sir George William

      Burke, E. Haviland-

      Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.)

      Allen, Arthur A. (Dumbarton)

      Burns, Rt. Hon. John

      Davies, M. Vaughan- (Cardigan)

      Allen, Rt. Hon. Charles P. (Stroud)

      Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas

      Dawes, James Arthur

      Arnold, Sydney

      Buxton, Rt. Hon. S. C. (Poplar)

      De Forest, Baron

      Asquith, Rt. Hon. Herbert Henry

      Byles, Sir William Pollard

      Delany, William

      Baker, H. T. (Accrington)

      Carr-Gomm, H. W.

      Denman, Hon. Richard Douglas

      Baker, Joseph Allen (Finsbury, E.)

      Cawley, Sir Frederick (Prestwich)

      Devlin, Joseph

      Balfour, Sir Robert (Lanark)

      Cawley, Harold T. (Heywood)

      Dickinson, W. H.

      Baring, Sir Godfrey (Barnstaple)

      Chancellor, H. G.

      Dillon, John

      Barlow, Sir John Emmott (Somerset)

      Chapple, Dr. William

      Donelan, Captain A.

      Barnes, George N.

      Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston S.

      Doris, W.

      Barran, Sir J. (Hawick Burghs)

      Clancy, John Joseph

      Duffy, William J.

      Barton, William

      Clough, William

      Duncan, J. Hastings (Yorks, Otley)

      Beauchamp, Sir Edward

      Clynes, J, R.

      Edwards, Clement (Glamorgan, E.)

      Bentham G. J.

      Collins, Godfrey P. (Greenock)

      Edwards, Sir Francis (Radnor)

      Bethell, Sir J. H.

      Compton-Rickett, Rt. Hon. Sir J.

      Edwards, John Hugh (Glamorgan, Mid)

      Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine

      Condon, Thomas Joseph

      Elverston, Sir Harold

      Black, Arthur W.

      Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.

      Esmonde, Dr. John (Tipperary, N.)

      Boland, John Pius

      Cotton, William Francis

      Esmonde, Sir Thomas (Wexford, N.)

      Booth, Frederick Handel

      Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth)

      Essex, Richard Walter

      Bowerman, Charles W.

      Crawshay-Williams, Eliot

      Esslemont, George Birnie

      Falconer, J.

      Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk Burghs)

      Redmond, William (Clare, E.)

      Farrell, James Patrick

      McGhee, Richard

      Redmond, William Archer (Tyrone, E.)

      Fenwick, Rt. Hon. Charles

      Macnamara, Rt. Hon. Dr. T. J.

      Rendall, Athelstan

      Ffrench, Peter

      MacNeil, John G. S. (Donegal, South)

      Richardson, Albion (Peckham)

      Field, William

      Macpherson, James Ian

      Richardson, Thomas (Whitehaven)

      Fiennes, Hon. Eustace Edward

      MacVeagh, Jeremiah

      Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)

      Fitzgibbon, John

      M'Callum, Sir John M.

      Roberts, Sir J. H. (Denbighs)

      Flavin, Michael Joseph

      M'Curdy, C. A.

      Robertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradford)

      George, Rt. Hon. D. Lloyd

      M'Kean, John

      Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside)

      Gill, A. H.

      McKenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald

      Robinson, Sidney

      Ginnell, L.

      M'Laren, Hon. H. D. (Leics.)

      Roch, Walter F.

      Gladstone, W. G. C.

      M'Laren, Hon. F. W. S. (Lincs., Spalding)

      Roche, Augustine (Louth)

      Glanville, Harold James

      M'Micking, Major Gilbert

      Roche, John (Galway, E.)

      Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford

      Manfield, Harry

      Roe, Sir Thomas

      Greenwood, Granville G. (Peterborough)

      Marks, Sir George Croydon

      Rowlands, James

      Greenwood, Hamar (Sunderland)

      Martin, J.

      Rowntree, Arnold

      Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward

      Mason, David M. (Coventry)

      Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter

      Griffith, Ellis J.

      Masterman, Rt. Hon. C. F. G.

      Russell, Rt. Hon. Thomas W.

      Guest, Hon. Frederick E. (Dorset)

      Meagher, Michael

      Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland)

      Gulland, John W.

      Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.)

      Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees)

      Gwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway)

      Menzies, Sir Walter

      Scanlan, Thomas

      Hackett, J.

      Millar, James Duncan

      Scott, A. MacCallum (Glas., Bridgeton)

      Hall, Frederick (Normanton)

      Molloy, M.

      Seely, Rt. Hon. Col. J. E. B.

      Hancock, John George

      Molteno, Percy Alport

      Sheehy, David

      Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Lewis (Rossendale)

      Mond, Sir Alfred M.

      Sherwell, Arthur James

      Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose)

      Money, L. G. Chiozza

      Shortt, Edward

      Harmsworth, R. L. (Caithness-shire)

      Mooney, J. J.

      Simon, Sir John Allsebrook

      Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale)

      Morgan, George Hay

      Smith, Albert (Lancs., Clitheroe)

      Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, W.)

      Morrell, Phillip

      Smith, H. B. L. (Northampton)

      Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N.E.)

      Morison, Hector

      Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.)

      Haslam, James (Derbyshire)

      Morton, Alpheus Cleophas

      Snowden, p.

      Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth)

      Muldoon, John

      Soames, Arthur Wellesley

      Havelock-Allan, Sir Henry

      Munro-Ferguson, Rt. Hon. R. C.

      Spicer, Rt. Hon. Sir Albert

      Hayden, John Patrick

      Murray, Captain Hon. Arthur C.

      Stanley, Albert (Staffs, N.W.)

      Hayward, Evan

      Nannetti, Joseph P.

      Strauss, Edward A. (Southwark, West)

      Hazleton, Richard

      Needham, Christopher T.

      Sutherland, J. E.

      Helme, Sir Norval Watson

      Neilson, Francis

      Sutton, John E.

      Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

      Nicholson, Sir Charles N. (Doncaster)

      Taylor, John W. (Durham)

      Henderson, J. M. (Aberdeen, W.)

      Nolan, Joseph

      Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)

      Henry, Sir Charles S.

      Norton, Captain Cecil W.

      Taylor, Thomas (Bolton)

      Herbert, Col. Sir Ivor (Mon., S.)

      Nugent, Sir Walter Richard

      Tennant, Harold John

      Higham, John Sharp

      Nuttall, Harry

      Thomas, J. H.

      Hinds, John

      O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

      Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton)

      Hobhouse, Rt. Hon. Charles E. H.

      O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)

      Thorne, William (West Ham)

      Hodge, John

      O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)

      Toulmin, Sir George

      Hogge, James Myles

      O'Doherty, Philip

      Trevelyan, Charles Philips

      Holmes, Daniel Turner

      O'Donnell, Thomas

      Ure, Rt. Hon. Alexander

      Hope, John Deans (Haddington)

      O'Dowd, John

      Verney, Sir Harry

      Horne, Charles Silvester (Ipswich)

      Ogden, Fred

      Wadsworth, J.

      Howard, Hon. Geoffrey

      O'Grady, James

      Walsh, Stephen (Lancs., Ince)

      Hudson, Walter

      O'Kelly, Edward P. (Wicklow, W.)

      Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent)

      Hughes, Spencer Leigh

      O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N.)

      Ward, W. Dudley (Southampton)

      Isaacs, Rt. Hon. Sir Rufus

      O'Malley, William

      Wardle, George J.

      Jardine, Sir J. (Roxburgh)

      O'Neill, Dr. Charles S. (Armagh, S.)

      Waring, Walter

      John, Edward Thomas

      O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

      Warner, Sir Thomas Courtenay

      Jones, Rt. Hon. Sir D. Brynmor (Sw'nsea)

      O'Shee, James John

      Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney)

      Jones, Edgar (Merthyr Tydvil)

      O'Sullivan, Timothy

      Webb, H.

      Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)

      Palmer, Godfrey Mark

      Wedgwood, Josiah C.

      Jones, J. Towyn (Carmarthen, East)

      Parker, James (Halifax)

      White, J. Dundas (Glasgow, Tradeston).

      Jones, Leif Stratten (Notts, Rushcliffe)

      Pearce, Robert (Starts, Leek)

      White, Patrick (Meath, North)

      Jones, William (Carnarvonshire)

      Pearce, William (Limehouse)

      Whitehouse, John Howard

      Jones, W. S. Glyn- (T. H'mts., Stepney)

      Pease, Rt. Hon. Joseph A. (Rotherham)

      Whyte, Alexander F.

      Joyce, Michael

      Phillips, John (Longford, S.)

      Wiles, Thomas

      Keating, Matthew

      Pirie, Duncan V.

      Wilkie, Alexander

      Kellaway, Frederick George

      Pointer, Joseph

      Williams, J. (Glamorgan)

      Kennedy, Vincent Paul

      Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H.

      Williams, Llewelyn (Carmarthen)

      Kilbride, Denis

      Power, Patrick Joseph

      Williams, Penry (Middlesbrough)

      King, J.

      Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central)

      Williamson, Sir A.

      Lambert, Rt. Hon. G. (Devon, S. Molton)

      Price, Sir Robert J. (Norfolk, E.)

      Wilson, Hon. G. G. (Hull, West)

      Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade)

      Priestley, Sir Arthur (Grantham)

      Wilson, Rt. Hon. J. W. (Worcs., N.)

      Lardner, James Carrige Rushe

      Priestley, Sir W. E. B. (Bradford, E.)

      Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)

      Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, West)

      Pringle, William M. R.

      Winfrey, Richard

      Lawson, Sir W. (Cumb'rid., Cockerm'th)

      Radford, George Heynes

      Wood, Rt. Hon. T. McKinnon (Glas.)

      Leach, Charles

      Raffan, Peter Wilson

      Young, Samuel (Cavan, E.)

      Lewis, John Herbert

      Raphael, Sir Herbert H.

      Young, W. (Perthshire, E.)

      Low, Sir F. (Norwich)

      Rea, Rt. Hon. Russell (South Shields)

      Yoxall, Sir James Henry

      Lundon, Thomas

      Rea, Walter Russell (Scarborough)

      Lyell, Charles Henry

      Reddy, Michael

      TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr.

      Lynch, Arthur Alfred

      Redmond, John E (Waterford)

      Illingworth and Mr. Wedgwood Benn.

      Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester)

      NOES.

      Aitken, Sir William Max

      Ashley, W. W.

      Balcarres, Lord

      Amery, L. C. M. S.

      Astor, Waldorf

      Baldwin, Stanley

      Archer-Shee, Major Martin

      Baird, J. L.

      Banbury, Sir Frederick George

      1122

      1123

      Barnston, Harry

      Guinness, Hon. W. E. (Bury S. Edmunds)

      Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield)

      Barrie, H. T.

      Gwynne, R. S. (Sussex, Eastbourne)

      Nield, Herbert

      Bathurst, Charles (Wilts, Wilton)

      Hall, D. B. (Isle of Wight)

      Norton-Griffiths, John

      Beach, Hon. Michael Hugh Hicks

      Hall, Fred (Dulwich)

      O'Neill, Hon. A. E. B. (Antrim, Mid)

      Beckett, Hon. Gervase

      Hall, Marshall (E. Toxteth)

      Orde-Powlett, Hon. W. G. A.

      Benn, Arthur Shirley (Plymouth)

      Hamersley, A. St. George

      Parkes, Ebenezer

      Bentinck, Lord H. Cavendish-

      Hamilton, Lord C. J. (Kensington, S.)

      Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington)

      Beresford, Lord C.

      Hamilton, Marquess of (Londonderry)

      Peto, Basil Edward

      Bigland, Alfred

      Hardy, Rt. Hon. Laurence

      Pole-Carew, sir R.

      Bird, Alfred

      Harris, Henry Percy

      Pollock, Ernest Murray

      Boles, Lieut.-Col. Dennis Fortescue

      Harrison-Broadley, H. B.

      Pryce-Jones, Colonel E.

      Boscawen, Sir Arthur S. T. Griffith-

      Helmsley, Viscount

      Rawlinson, John Frederick Peef

      Boyle, William (Norfolk, Mid)

      Henderson, Major H. (Abingdon)

      Remnant, James Farquharson

      Boyton, James

      Herbert, Hon. A. (Somerset, S.)

      Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall)

      Bull, Sir William James

      Hewins, William Albert Samuel

      Rolleston, Sir John

      Burdett-Coutts, W.

      Hickman, Colonel T. E.

      Ronaldshay, Earl of

      Burgoyne, A. H.

      Hill, Sir Clement L.

      Rothschild, Lionel de

      Burn, Col. C. R.

      Hills, J. W.

      Royds, Edmund

      Butcher, J. G.

      Hill-Wood, Samuel

      Rutherford, John (Lancs., Darwen)

      Campbell, Capt. Duncan F. (Ayr, N.)

      Hoare, Samuel John Gurney

      Rutherford, W. (Liverpool, w. Derby)

      Campbell, Rt. Hon. J. (Dublin Univ)

      Hohler, G. F.

      Salter, Arthur Clavell

      Campion, W. R.

      Hope, Harry (Bute)

      Samuel, Sir Harry (Norwood)

      Carlile, Sir Hildred

      Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield)

      Sanders, Robert Arthur

      Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward H.

      Hope, Major J. A. (Midlothian)

      Sanderson, Lancelot

      Cassel, Felix

      Horner, A. L.

      Sassoon, Sir Philip

      Castlereagh, Viscount

      Houston, Robert Paterson

      Scott, Leslie (Liverpool, Exchange)

      Cave, George

      Hume-Williams, W. E.

      Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

      Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

      Hunt, Rowland

      Smith, Harold (Warrington)

      Cecil, Lord R. (Herts, Hitchin)

      Hunter, Sir C. R.

      Spear, Sir John Ward

      Chaloner, Col. R. G. W.

      Ingleby, Holcombe

      Stanier, Beville

      Chambers, J.

      Jardine, Ernest (Somerset, East)

      Stanley, Hon. G. F. (Preston)

      Clay, Capt. H. H. Spender

      Jessel, Captain H. M.

      Starkey, John R.

      Clive, Captain Percy Archer

      Kebty-Fletcher, J. R.

      Steel-Maitland, A. D

      Clyde, James Avon

      Kerr-Smiley, Peter Kerr

      Stewart, Gershom

      Coates, Major Sir Edward Feetham

      Kerry, Earl of

      Strauss, Edward A. (Southwark, West)

      Cooper, Richard Ashmole

      Kimber, Sir Henry

      Swift, Rigby

      Courthope, George Loyd

      Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement

      Sykes, Alan John (Ches., Knutsford)

      Craig, Ernest (Cheshire, Crewe)

      Knight, Captain Eric Ayshford

      Sykes, Mark (Hull, Central)

      Craig, Captain James (Down, E.)

      Lane-Fox, G. R.

      Talbot, Lord E.

      Craig, Norman (Kent, Thanet)

      Larmor, Sir J.

      Terrell, G. (Wilts, N.W.)

      Crichton-Stuart, Lord Ninian

      Law, Rt. Hon. A. Bonar (Bootle)

      Terrell, Henry (Gloucester)

      Croft, H. P.

      Lawson, Hon. H. (T. H'mts, Mile End)

      Thomson, W. Mitchell- (Down, North)

      Dalziel, Davison (Brixton)

      Lewisham, Viscount

      Thynne, Lord A.

      Denniss, E. R. B.

      Lloyd, G. A.

      Tobin, Alfred Aspinall

      Dickson, Rt. Hon. C. Scott

      Locker-Lampson, G. (Salisbury)

      Touche, George Alexander

      Dixon, C. H.

      Locker-Lampson, O. (Ramsey)

      Tryon, Capt. George Clement

      Doughty, Sir George

      Lockwood, Rt. Hon. Lt.-Col. A. R.

      Valentia, Viscount

      Duke, Henry Edward

      Long, Rt. Hon. Walter

      Walrond, Hon. Lionel

      Eyres-Monsell, B. M.

      Lonsdale, Sir John Brownlee

      Ward, Arnold S. (Herts, Watford)

      Faber, George Denison (Clapham)

      Lowe, Sir F. W. (Birm., Edgbaston)

      Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid.)

      Fell, Arthur

      Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. A. (S. Geo., Han. s.)

      White, Major G. D. (Lancs., South port)

      Fetherstonhaugh, Godfrey

      Lyttelton, Hon. J. C. (Droitwich)

      Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset, W.)

      Finlay, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert

      MacCaw, W. J. MacGeagh

      Wills, Sir Gilbert

      Fisher, Rt. Hon. W. Hayes

      Mackinder, H. J.

      Winterton, Earl

      Fleming, Valentine

      Macmaster, Donald

      Wolmer, Viscount

      Forster, Henry William

      M'Neill, Ronald (Kent, St. Augustine's)

      Wood, Hon. E. F. L. (Ripon)

      Foster, Philip Staveley

      Magnus, Sir Philip

      Wood, John (Stalybridge)

      Gardner, Ernest

      Meysey-Thompson, E. C.

      Worthington-Evans, L.

      Gastrell, Major W. Houghton

      Middlemore, John Throgmorton

      Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-

      Goldman, C. S.

      Mildmay, Francis Bingham

      Wright, Henry Fitzherbert

      Goldsmith, Frank

      Moore, William

      Yate, Col. C. E.

      Gordon, John (Londonderry, South)

      Morrison-Bell, Capt. E. F. (Ashburton)

      Yerburgh, Robert A.

      Gordon, Hon. John Edward (Brighton)

      Mount, William Arthur

      Younger, Sir George

      Goulding, Edward Alfred

      Neville, Reginald J. N.

      Greene, Walter Raymond

      Nowdegate, F. A.

      TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr.

      Gretton, John

      Newman, John R. P.

      G. Gibbs and Mr. C. Craig.

      Guinness, Hon Rupert (Essex, S.E.)

      Newton, Harry Kottingham

      Question put, "That the Clause, as Amended, stand part of the Bill."
      The Committee divided: Ayes, 300; Noes, 194.

      Division No. 332.]

      AYES.

      [8.30 p.m.

      Abraham, William (Dublin, Harbour)

      Asquith, Rt. Hon. Herbert Henry

      Beauchamp, Sir Edward

      Abraham, Rt. Hon. William (Rhondda)

      Baker, Harold T. (Accrington)

      Benn, W. W. (T. H'mts., St. George)

      Acland, Francis Dyke

      Baker, Joseph Allen (Finsbury, E.)

      Bentham, George Jackson

      Adamson, William

      Balfour, Sir Robert (Lanark)

      Bethell, Sir J. H.

      Addison, Dr. Christopher

      Baring, Sir Godfrey (Barnstaple)

      Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine

      Agnew, Sir George

      Barlow, Sir John Emmott (Somerset)

      Black, Arthur W.

      Allen, Arthur Acland (Dumbartonshire)

      Barnes, George N.

      Boland, John Pius

      Allen, Rt. Hon. Charles P. (Stroud)

      Barran, Sir J. (Hawick Burghs)

      Booth, Frederick Handel

      Arnold, Sydney

      Barton, William

      Bowerman, Charles W.

      Boyle, Daniel (Mayo, North)

      Havelock-Allan, Sir Henry

      O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

      Brace, William

      Hayden, John Patrick

      O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)

      Brady, P. J.

      Hayward, Evan

      O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)

      Brocklehurst, William B.

      Hazleton, Richard

      O'Doherty, Philip

      Bryce, John Annan

      Helme, Sir Norval Watson

      O'Donnell, Thomas

      Buckmaster, Stanley O.

      Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

      O'Dowd, John

      Burke, E. Haviland-

      Henderson, J. M. (Aberdeen, W.)

      Ogden, Fred

      Burns, Rt. Hon. John

      Henry, Sir Charles S.

      O'Grady, James

      Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas

      Higham, John Sharp

      O'Kelly, Edward P. (Wicklow, W.)

      Buxton, Rt. Hon. S. C. (Poplar)

      Hinds, John

      O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N.)

      Byles, Sir William Pollard

      Hobhouse, Rt. Hon. Charles E. H.

      O'Malley, William

      Carr-Gomm, H. W.

      Hodge, John

      O'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, S.)

      Cawley, Sir Frederick (Prestwich)

      Hogge, James Myles

      O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

      Cawley, H. T. (Lancs., Heywood)

      Holmes, Daniel Turner

      O'Shee, James John

      Chancellor, H. G.

      Hope, John Deans (Haddington)

      O'Sullivan, Timothy

      Chapple, Dr. William Allen

      Home, C. Silvester (Ipswich)

      Palmer, Godfrey Mark

      Clancy, John Joseph

      Hudson, Walter

      Parker, James (Halifax)

      Clough, William

      Hughes, Spencer Leigh

      Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek)

      Clynes, J. R.

      Illingworth, Percy H.

      Pease, Rt. Hon. Joseph A. (Rotherham)

      Collins, Godfrey P. (Greenock)

      Isaacs, Rt. Hon. Sir Rufus

      Phillips, John (Longford, S.)

      Compton-Rickett, Rt. Hon. Sir J.

      Jardine, Sir J. (Roxburgh)

      Pointer, Joseph

      Condon, Thomas Joseph

      John, Edward Thomas

      Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H.

      Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.

      Jones, Rt. Hon. Sir D. Brynmor (Swansea)

      Power, Patrick Joseph

      Cotton, William Francis

      Jones, Edgar R. (Merthyr Tydvil)

      Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central)

      Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth)

      Jones, H. Haydn (Merioneth)

      Priestley, Sir Arthur (Grantham)

      Crawshay-Williams, Eliot

      Jones, J. Towyn (Carmarthen, East)

      Priestley, Sir W. E. B. (Bradford, E.)

      Crooks, William

      Jones, Leif Straiten (Notts, Rushcliffe)

      Pringle, William M. R.

      Crumley, Patrick

      Jones, William (Carnarvonshire)

      Radford, G. H.

      Cullinan, John

      Jones, W. S. Glyn- (T. H'mts, Stepney)

      Raffan, Peter Wilson

      Dalziel, Rt. Hon. Sir J. H. (Kirkcaldy)

      Joyce, Michael

      Raphael, Sir Herbert Henry

      Davies, E. William (Eifion)

      Keating, Matthew

      Rea, Rt. Hon. Russell (South Shields)

      Davies, Timothy (Lincs., Louth)

      Kellaway, Frederick George

      Rea, Walter Russell (Scarborough)

      Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.)

      Kennedy, Vincent Paul

      Reddy, Michael

      Davies, M. Vaughan- (Cardigan)

      Kilbride, Denis

      Redmond, John E. (Waterford)

      Dawes, James Arthur

      King, J.

      Redmond, William (Clare, E.)

      De Forest, Baron

      Lambert, Rt. Hon. G. (Devon, S. Molton)

      Redmond, William Archer (Tyrone, E.)

      Delany, William

      Lambert, Richard (Cricklade)

      Rendall, Athelstan

      Denman, Hon. Richard Douglas

      Lardner, James Carrige Rushe

      Richardson, Albion (Peckham)

      Devlin, Joseph

      Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, West)

      Richardson, Thomas (Whitehaven)

      Dickinson, W. H.

      Lawson, Sir W. (Cumb'rid, Cockerm'th)

      Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)

      Dillon, John

      Leach, Charles

      Roberts, Sir J. H. (Denbighs)

      Donelan, Captain A.

      Lewis, John Herbert

      Robertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradford)

      Doris, William

      Low, Sir Frederick (Norwich)

      Robertson, John M. (Tyneside)

      Duffy, William J.

      Lundon, Thomas

      Robinson, Sidney

      Duncan, J. Hastings (Yorks, Otley)

      Lyell, Charles Henry

      Roch, Walter F.

      Edwards, Clement (Glamorgan, E.)

      Lynch, Arthur Alfred

      Roche, Augustine (Louth)

      Edwards, Sir Francis (Radnor)

      Macdonald, J. Ramsay (Leicester)

      Roche, John (Galway, E.)

      Edwards, John Hugh (Glamorgan, Mid.)

      Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk)

      Roe, Sir Thomas

      Elverston, Sir Harold

      McGhee, Richard

      Rowlands, James

      Esmonde, Dr. John (Tipperary, N.)

      Macnamara, Rt. Hon. Dr. T. J.

      Rowntree, Arnold

      Esmonde, Sir Thomas (Wexford, N.)

      MacNeill, J. G. Swift (Donegal, South)

      Russell, Rt. Hon. Thomas W.

      Essex, Richard Walter

      Macpherson, James Ian

      Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland)

      Esslemont, George Birnie

      MacVeagh, Jeremiah

      Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees)

      Falconer, James

      M'Callum, Sir John M.

      Scanlan, Thomas

      Farrell, James Patrick

      M'Curdy, C. A.

      Scott, A. MacCallum (Glas., Bridgeton)

      Fenwick, Rt. Hon. Charles

      McKenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald

      Sheehy, David

      French, Peter

      M'Laren, Hon. H. D. (Leics.)

      Sherwell, Arthur James

      Field, William

      M'Laren, Hon. F. W. S. (Lincs., Spalding)

      Shortt, Edward

      Flennes, Hon. Eustace Edward

      M'Micking, Major Gilbert

      Simon, Sir John Allsebrook

      Fitzgibbon, John

      Manfield, Harry

      Smith, Albert (Lancs., Clitheroe)

      Flavin, Michael Joseph

      Marks, Sir George Croydon

      Smith, H. B. L. (Northampton)

      George, Rt. Hon. D. Lloyd

      Martin, J.

      Smyth, Thomas F, (Leitrim, S.)

      Gill, Alfred Henry

      Masterman, Rt. Hon. C. F. G.

      Snowden, Philip

      Ginnell, L.

      Meagher, Michael

      Soames, Arthur Wellesley

      Gladstone, W. G. C.

      Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.)

      Spicer, Rt. Hon. Sir Albert

      Glanville, H. G.

      Menzies, Sir Walter

      Stanley, Albert (Staffs, N.W.)

      Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford

      Millar, James Duncan

      Strauss, Edward A. (Southwark, West)

      Greenwood, Granville G. (Peterborough)

      Molloy, Michael

      Sutherland, J. E.

      Greenwood, Hamar (Sunderland)

      Molteno, Percy Alport

      Sutton, John E.

      Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward

      Mond, Sir Alfred Moritz

      Taylor, John W. (Durham)

      Griffith, Ellis Jones

      Money, L. G. Chiozza

      Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)

      Gulland, John W.

      Mooney, John J.

      Taylor, Thomas (Bolton)

      Gwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway)

      Morgan, George Hay

      Tennant, Harold John

      Hackett, J.

      Morrell, Philip

      Thomas, James Henry

      Hall, Frederick (Normanton)

      Morison, Hector

      Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton)

      Hancock, John George

      Morton, Alpheus Cleophas

      Thorne, William (West Ham)

      Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Lewis (Rossendale)

      Muldoon, John

      Toulmin, Sir George

      Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose)

      Murray, Captain Hon. Arthur C.

      Ure, Rt. Hon. Alexander

      Harmsworth, R. L. (Caithness-shire)

      Nannetti, Joseph p.

      Verney, Sir Harry

      Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale)

      Needham, Christopher T.

      Wadsworth, J.

      Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, West)

      Nolan, Joseph

      Walsh, Stephen (Lancs., Ince)

      Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N.E.)

      Norton, Captain Cecil William

      Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent)

      Haslam, James (Derbyshire)

      Nugent, Sir Walter Richard

      Wardle, George J.

      Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth)

      Nuttall, Harry

      Waring, Walter

      1126

      1127

      Warner, Sir Thomas Courtenay

      Wilkie, Alexander

      Winfrey, Richard

      Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney)

      Williams, J. (Glamorgan)

      Wood, Rt. Hon. T. (McKinnon (Glas.)

      Webb, H.

      Williams, Llewelyn (Carmarthen)

      Young, Samuel (Cavan, E.)

      Wedgwood, Josiah C

      Williams, Penry (Middlesbrough)

      Young, William (Perth, East)

      White, J. Dundas (Glasgow, Tradeston)

      Williamson, Sir A.

      Yoxall, Sir James Henry

      White, Patrick (Meath, North)

      Wilson, Hon. G. G. (Hull, W.)

      Whitehouse, John Howard

      Wilson, Rt. Hon. J. W. (Worcs., N.)

      TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr.

      Whittaker, Rt. Hon. Sir Thomas P.

      Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)

      Howard and Captain Guest.

      Whyte, A. F. (Perth)

      NOES.

      Aitken, Sir W. M.

      Gibbs, G. A.

      Morrison-Bell, Capt. E. F. (Ashburton)

      Archer-Shee, Major Martin

      Goldman, C. S.

      Mount, William Arthur

      Ashley, W. W.

      Goldsmith, Frank

      Munro-Ferguson, Rt. Hon. R. C.

      Astor, Waldorf

      Gordon, John (Londonderry, South)

      Neville, Reginald J. N.

      Baird, J. L.

      Gordon, Hon. John Edward (Brighton)

      Newdegate, F. A.

      Balcarres, Lord

      Goulding, Edward Alfred

      Newman, John R. P.

      Baldwin, Stanley

      Greene, Walter Raymond

      Newton, Harry Kottingham

      Banbury, Sir Frederick George

      Gretton, John

      Nicholson, Wm. G. (Petersfield)

      Barnston, H.

      Guinness, Hon. Rupert (Essex, S.E.)

      Nield, Herbert

      Barrie, Hugh T.

      Guinness, Hon. W. E. (Bury S. Edmunds)

      Norton-Griffiths, J.

      Bathurst, Charles Wilton

      Gwynn, R. S. (Sussex, Eastbourne)

      O'Neill, Hon. A. E. B. (Antrim, Mid)

      Beach, Hon. Michael Hugh Hicks

      Hall, D. B. (Isle of Wight)

      Orde-Powlett, Hon. W. G. A.

      Beckett, Hon. Gervase

      Hall, Fred (Dulwich)

      Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington)

      Benn, Arthur Shirley (Plymouth)

      Hall, Marshall, (E. Toxteth)

      Peto, Basil Edward

      Bentinck, Lord H. Cavendish-

      Hamersley, Alfred St. George

      Pole-Carew, Sir R.

      Beresford, Lord C.

      Hamilton, Lord C. J. (Kensington, S.)

      Pollock, Ernest Murray

      Bigland, Alfred

      Hamilton, Marquess of (Londonderry)

      Pryce-Jones, Col. E. (Montgom'y B'ghs)

      Bird, Alfred

      Hardy, Rt. Hon. Laurence

      Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel

      Boles, Lieut.-Col. Dennis Fortescue

      Harris, Henry Percy

      Remnant, James Farquharson

      Boscawen, Sir Arthur S. T. Griffith-

      Harrison-Broadley, H. B.

      Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall)

      Boyle, William (Norfolk, Mid)

      Helmsley, Viscount

      Rolleston, Sir John

      Boyton, J.

      Henderson, Major H, (Berkshire)

      Ronaldshay, Earl of

      Bull, Sir William James

      Herbert, Hon. A. (Somerset, S.)

      Rothschild, Lionel de

      Burdett-Coutts, W.

      Hewins, William Albert Samuel

      Samuel, Sir Harry (Norwood)

      Burgoyne, A. H.

      Hickman, Colonel T. E.

      Sanders, Robert A.

      Burn, Colonel C. R.

      Hill, Sir Clement

      Sanderson, Lancelot

      Butcher, J. G.

      Hills, J. W.

      Sassoon, Sir Philip

      Campbell, Capt. Duncan F. (Ayr, N.)

      Hill-Wood, Samuel

      Scott, Leslie (Liverpool, Exchange)

      Campbell, Rt. Hon. J. (Dublin Univ.)

      Hoare, Samuel John Gurney

      Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

      Campion, W. R.

      Hope, Harry (Bute)

      Smith, Harold (Warrington)

      Carlile, Sir Edward Hildred

      Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield)

      Spear, Sir John Ward

      Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward H.

      Hope, Major J. A. (Midlothian)

      Stanier, Beville

      Cassel, Felix

      Horner, Andrew Long

      Stanley, Hon. G. F. (Preston)

      Castlereagh, Viscount

      Houston, Robert Paterson

      Starkey, John Ralph

      Cave, George

      Hume-Williams, William Ellis

      Steel-Maitland, A. D.

      Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

      Hunt, Rowland

      Stewart, Gershom

      Chaloner, Col. R. G. W.

      Hunter, Sir Charles Rodk.

      Strauss, Edward A. (Southwark, West)

      Chambers, James

      Ingleby, Holcombe

      Swift, Rigby

      Clay, Captain H. H. Spender

      Jardine, Ernest (Somerset, East)

      Sykes, Alan John (Ches., Knutsford)

      Clive, Captain Percy Archer

      Jessel, Captain H. M.

      Sykes, Mark (Hull, Central)

      Clyde, James Avon

      Kebty-Fletcher, J. R.

      Talbot, Lord E.

      Coates, Major Sir Edward Feetham

      Kerr-Smiley, Peter Kerr

      Terrell, George (Wilts, N. W.)

      Cooper, Richard Ashmole

      Kerry, Earl of

      Terrell, Henry (Gloucester)

      Courthope, George Loyd

      Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement

      Thomson, W. Mitchell- (Down, North)

      Craig Charles Curtis (Antrim, S.)

      Knight, Captain E. A.

      Tobin, Alfred Aspinall

      Craig, Ernest (Cheshire, Crewe)

      Lane-Fox, G. R.

      Touche, George Alexander

      Craig, Captain James (Down, E.)

      Larmor, Sir J.

      Tryon, Captain George Clement

      Craig, Norman (Kent, Thanet)

      Law, Rt. Hon. A. Bonar (Bootle)

      Valentia, Viscount

      Crichton-Stuart, Lord Ninian

      Lawson, Hon. Harry (Mile End)

      Watrond, Hon. Lionel

      Dalziel, D. (Brixton)

      Lewisham, Viscount

      Ward, Arnold (Herts, Watford)

      Denniss, E. R. B.

      Locker-Lampson, G. (Salisbury)

      Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid.)

      Dickson, Rt. Hon. C. Scott

      Locker-Lampson, O. (Ramsey)

      Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.)

      Dixon, C. H.

      Lockwood, Rt. Hon. Lt.-Col. A. R.

      Wills, Sir Gilbert

      Doughty, Sir George

      Long, Rt. Hon. Walter

      Wolmer, Viscount

      Duke, Henry Edward

      Lonsdale, Sir John Brownlee

      Wood, Mon. E. F. L. (Yorks, Ripon)

      Eyres-Monsell, B. M.

      Lowe, Sir F. W. (Birm., Edgbaston)

      Wood, John (Stalybridge)

      Faber, George Denison (Clapham)

      Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. A. (S. Geo., Han. S.)

      Worthington-Evans. L.

      Fell, Arthur

      Lyttelton, Hon. J. C. (Droitwich)

      Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-

      Fetherstonhaugh, Godfrey

      MacCaw, Wm. J. MacGeagh

      Wright, Henry Fitzherbert

      Finlay, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert

      Mackinder, H. J.

      Yate, Col. C. E.

      Fisher, Rt. Hon. W. Hayes

      Macmaster, Donald

      Yerburgh, Robert A.

      Fleming, Valentine

      M'Neill, Ronald (Kent. St. Augustine's)

      Younger, Sir George

      Forster, Henry William

      Mersey-Thompson, E. C.

      Foster, Philip Staveley

      Middlemore, John Throgmorton

      TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr.

      Gardner, Ernest

      Mildmay, Francis Bingham

      Salter and Major White.

      Gastrell, Major W. Houghton

      Moore, William

      CLAUSE 16.—(Relations between Great Britain and Ireland as respects Customs and Excise Duties.)
      (1) Any articles which are brought into Great Britain from Ireland or into Ireland
      1128
      from Great Britain shall be deemed to be articles exported or imported for the purposes of information to be furnished under the Customs Consolidation Act, 1876, and Section four of the Revenue Act, 1909, and

      1129
      for the purpose of any duty or drawback payable in the circumstances for which provision is made under this Section, but not for any other purpose.
      (2) Where a Customs Duty is levied in one country and not in the other, or is levied in both countries but at a higher rate in the one country than in the other, duty shall be charged and drawback allowed in respect of articles being articles produced, prepared, or manufactured abroad as follows:

      (a) The Customs Duty shall be charged on any such articles brought into the one country from the other country sa if they were articles imported from abroad, except that in the case of articles produced abroad but manufactured or prepared in the country from which they are sent, the Customs Duty charged shall, if the drawback which would be allowed on the exportation of similar articles from the country into which the articles are brought less than the duty payable on importation, be a duty equal to the drawback; and

      (b) A drawback shall be allowed on any such articles sent from the one country into the other equal to the drawback which would be allowed upon the exportation of the articles from the country from which they are sent.

      (3) Where an Excise Duty is levied in one country and not in the other, or is levied in both countries but at a higher rate in the one country than in the other, duty shall be charged and drawback allowed in respect of articles being articles produced, prepared, or manufactured in either country as follows:—

      (a) A Customs Duty shall be charged on any such articles brought into the one country from the other country

      as if they were articles imported from abroad, equal to the amount of the Excise Duty levied in the country into which they are brought; and
      (b A drawback shall be allowed on any such articles sent from the one country into the other equal to the amount of the Excise Duty levied in the country from which they are sent
      (4) The proceeds of any Customs Duty charged under this Section in Ireland on any article shall to the extent to which they exceed the proceeds of the Customs or Excise Duty which would have been charged on the article on Great Britain be deemed to be the proceeds of a Customs Duty levied as an Irish tax, if the duty is charged in respect of a difference of Customs Duties, and be deemed to be the proceeds of an Excise Duty levied as an Irish tax if the duty is charged in respect of a difference of Excise Duties, and as to the balance be deemed to be the proceeds of an Imperial tax.
      (5) Nothing in this Section shall affect any enactment under which articles deposited in a bonded warehouse without payment of duty may be transferred from one country to the other country.
      Government Amendment: In Sub-section (2), at the end of paragraph (a), add the words,
      "and if the duty is payable in respect of any such articles on delivery from bond, after manufacture or preparation in bond, a duty equal to that which would have been paid under similar circumstances in respect of the same article in the country into which the article is brought."—[Sir Rufus Isaacs.]
      Question put, "That the Amendment be made."
      The Committee divided: Ayes, 298; Noes, 192.

      Division No. 333.

      AYES.

      8.30 p.m.

      Abraham, William (Dublin, Harbour)

      Barton, W.

      Burns, Rt. Hon. John

      Abraham, Rt. Hon. William (Rhondda)

      Beauchamp, Sir Edward

      Burl, Rt. Hon. Thomas

      Acland, Francis Dyke

      Benn, W. W. (T. Hamlets, St. Geo.)

      Buxton, Rt. Hon. Sydney C. (Poplar)

      Adamson, William

      Bentham, G. J.

      Byles, Sir William Pollard

      Addison, Dr. Christopher

      Bethell, Sir J. H,

      Carr-Gomm, H. W.

      Agnew, Sir George William

      Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine

      Cawley, Sir Frederick (Prestwich)

      Allen, Arthur A. (Dumbarton)

      Black, Arthur W.

      Cawley, H. T. (Lancs., Heywood)

      Allen, Rt. Hon. Charles P. (Stroud)

      Boland, John Pius

      Chancellor, H. G.

      Arnold, Sydney

      Booth, Frederick Handel

      Chapple, Dr. William Allen

      Asquith, Rt. Hon. Herbert Henry

      Bowerman, C. W.

      Clancy, John Joseph

      Baker, H. T. (Accrington)

      Boyle, D. (Mayo, N.)

      Clough, William

      Baker, Joseph Allen (Finsbury, E.)

      Brace, William

      Clynes, John R.

      Balfour, Sir Robert (Lanark)

      Brady, P. J.

      Collins, G. P. (Greenock)

      Baring, Sir Godfrey (Barnstaple)

      Brocklehurst, W. B.

      Compton-Rickett, Rt. Hon. Sir J.

      Barlow, Sir John Emmott (Somerset)

      Bryce, J. Annan

      Condon, Thomas Joseph

      Barnes, G. N.

      Buckmaster, Stanley O.

      Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.

      Barran, Sir J. (Hawick Burghs)

      Burke, E. Haviland-

      Cotton, William Francis

      Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth)

      Jowett, Frederick William

      Priestley, Sir W. E. B. (Bradford, E.)

      Crawshay-Williams, Eliot

      Joyce, Michael

      Pringle, William M. R.

      Crooks, William

      Keating, Matthew

      Radford, G. H.

      Crumley, Patrick

      Kellaway, Frederick George

      Raffan, Peter Wilson

      Cullinan, J.

      Kennedy, Vincent Paul

      Raphael, Sir Herbert H.

      Dalziel, Rt. Hon. Sir J. H. (Kirkcaldy)

      Kilbride, Denis

      Rea, Walter Russell (Scarborough)

      Davies, E. William (Eifion)

      King, J.

      Reddy, M.

      Davies, Timothy (Lincs., Louth)

      Lambert, Rt. Hon. G. (Devon, S. Molton)

      Redmond, John E. (Waterford)

      Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.)

      Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade)

      Redmond, William (Clare, E.)

      Dawes, James Arthur

      Lardner, James Carrige Rushe

      Redmond, William Archer (Tyrone, E.)

      De Forest, Baron

      Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, West)

      Rendall, Athelstan

      Delany, William

      Lawson, Sir W. (Cumb'rld, Cockerm'th)

      Richardson, Albion (Peckham)

      Denman, Hon. R. D.

      Leach, Charles

      Richardson, Thomas (Whitehaven)

      Devlin, Joseph

      Lewis, John Herbert

      Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)

      Dickinson, W. H.

      Low, Sir Frederick (Norwich)

      Roberts, Sir J. H. (Denbighs)

      Donelan, Captain A.

      Lundon, Thomas

      Robertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradford)

      Doris, William

      Lyell, Charles Henry

      Robertson, John M. (Tyneside)

      Duffy, William J.

      Lynch, A. A.

      Robinson, Sidney

      Duncan, J. Hastings (Yorks, Otley)

      Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester)

      Roch, Walter F. (Pembroke)

      Edwards, Clement (Glamorgan, E.)

      Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk Burghs)

      Roche, Augustine (Louth)

      Edwards, Sir Francis (Radnor)

      McGhee, Richard

      Roche, John (Galway, E.)

      Edwards, John Hugh (Glamorgan, Mid)

      Macnamara, Rt. Hon. Dr. T. J.

      Roe, Sir Thomas

      Elverston, Sir Harold

      MacNeill, J. G. Swift (Donegal, South)

      Rowlands, James

      Esmonde, Dr. John (Tipperary, N.)

      Macpherson, James Ian

      Rowntree, Arnold

      Esmonde, Sir Thomas (Wexford, N.)

      MacVeagh, Jeremiah

      Russell, Rt. Hon. Thomas W.

      Essex, Richard Walter

      M'Callum, Sir John M.

      Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland)

      Esslemont, George Birnie

      M'Curdy, Charles Albert

      Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees)

      Falconer, J.

      M'Kean, John

      Scanlan, Thomas

      Farrell, James Patrick

      Mckenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald

      Scott, A. MacCallum (Glas., Bridgeton)

      Fenwick, Rt. Hon. Charles

      M'Laren, Hon. H. D. (Leics.)

      Seely, Col. Rt. Hon. J. E. B.

      Ffrench, Peter

      M'Laren, Hon. F. W. S. (Lincs., Spalding)

      Sheehy, David

      Field, William

      M'Micking, Major Gilbert

      Sherwell, Arthur James

      Fiennes, Hon. Eustace Edward

      Manfield, Harry

      Shortt, Edward

      Fitzgibbon, John

      Marks, Sir George Croydon

      Simon, Sir John Allsebrook

      Flavin, Michael Joseph

      Martin, Joseph

      Smith, Albert (Lancs., Clitheroe)

      George, Rt. Hon. David Lloyd

      Masterman, Rt. Hon. C. F. G.

      Smith, H. B. L. (Northampton)

      Gill, A. H.

      Meagher, Michael

      Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.)

      Ginnell, L.

      Mechan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.)

      Snowden, Philip

      Gladstone, W. G. C.

      Menzies, Sir Walter

      Spicer, Rt. Hon. Sir Albert

      Glanville, Harold James

      Millar, James Duncan

      Stanley, Albert (Staffs., N.W.)

      Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford

      Molloy, M.

      Strauss, Edward A. (Southwark, West)

      Greenwood, Hamar (Sunderland)

      Molteno, Percy Alport

      Sutherland, J. E.

      Griffith, Ellis J.

      Mond, Sir Alfred Moritz

      Sutton, John E.

      Gulland, John William

      Mooney, J. J.

      Taylor, John W. (Durham)

      Gwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway)

      Morgan, George Hay

      Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)

      Hackett, J.

      Morrell, Philip

      Taylor, Thomas (Bolton)

      Hall, F. (Yorks, Normanton)

      Morison, Hector

      Tennant, Harold John

      Hancock, John George

      Morton, Alpheus Cleophas

      Thomas, J. H.

      Harcourt, Rt. Hon. L. (Rossendale)

      Muldon, John

      Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton)

      Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose)

      Munro-Ferguson, Rt. Hon. R. D.

      Thorne, William (West Ham)

      Harmsworth, R. L. (Caithness-shire)

      Murray, Capt. Hon. A. C.

      Toulmin, Sir George

      Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, West)

      Nannetti, Joseph P.

      Ure, Rt. Hon. Alexander

      Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N.E.)

      Needham, Christopher T.

      Verney, Sir Harry

      Haslam, James (Derbyshire)

      Nolan, Joseph

      Wadsworth, J.

      Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth)

      Norton, Captain Cecil W.

      Walsh, Stephen (Lancs., Ince)

      Havelock-Allan, Sir Henry

      Nugent, Sir Walter Richard

      Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent)

      Hayden, John Patrick

      Nuttall, Harry

      Wardle, George J.

      Hayward, Evan

      O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

      Waring, Walter

      Hazleton, Richard (Galway, N.)

      O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)

      Warner, Sir Thomas Courtenay

      Helme, Sir Norval Watson

      O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)

      Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney)

      Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

      O'Doherty, Philip

      Webb, H.

      Henderson, J. M. (Aberdeen, W.)

      O'Donnell, Thomas

      Wedgwood, Josiah C.

      Henry, Sir Charles

      O'Dowd, John

      White, J. Dundas (Glasgow, Tradeston)

      Higham, John Sharp

      Ogden, Fred

      White, Patrick (Meath, North)

      Hinds, John

      O'Grady, James

      Whitehouse, John Howard

      Hobhouse, Rt. Hon. Charles E. H.

      O'Kelly, Edward P. (Wicklow, W.)

      Whittaker, Rt. Hon. Sir Thomas P.

      Hodge, John

      O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N.)

      Whyte, A. F. (Perth)

      Hoqge, James Myles

      O'Malley, William

      Wilkie, Alexander

      Holmes, Daniel Turner

      O'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, S.)

      Williams, J. (Glamorgan)

      Hope, John Deans (Haddington)

      O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

      Williams, Llewelyn (Carmarthen)

      Horne, C. Silvester (Ipswich)

      O'Shee, James John

      Williams, Penry (Middlesbrough)

      Hudson, Walter

      O'Sullivan, Timothy

      Wilson, Hon. G. G. (Hull, W.)

      Hughes, S. L.

      Palmer, Godfrey Mark

      Wilson, Rt. Hon. J. W. (Worcs., N.)

      Illingworth, Percy H.

      Parker, James (Halifax)

      Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)

      Isaacs, Rt. Hon. Sir Rufus

      Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek)

      Winfrey, Richard

      Jardine, Sir J. (Roxburgh)

      Pearce, William (Limehouse)

      Wood, Rt. Hon. T. McKinnon (Glas.)

      John, Edward Thomas

      Pease, Rt. Hon. Joseph A. (Rotherham)

      Young, Samuel (Cavan, East)

      Jones, Rt. Hon. Sir D. Brynmor (Swansea)

      Phillips, John (Longford, S.)

      Young, William (Perth, East)

      Jones, Edgar (Mertyhr Tydvil)

      Pirie, Duncan V.

      Yoxall, Sir James Henry

      Jones, H. Haydn (Merioneth)

      Pointer, Joseph

      Jones, J. Towyn (Carmarthen, East)

      Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H.

      Jones, Leif Stratten (Rushcliffe)

      Power, Patrick Joseph

      TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr.

      Jones, William (Carnarvonshire)

      Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central)

      G. Howard and Captain Guest.

      Jones, W. S. Glyn- (T. H'mts, Stepney)

      Priestley, Sir Arthur (Grantham)

      1132

      1133

      NOES.

      Aitken, Sir William Max

      Goldman, C. S.

      Mount, William Arthur

      Archer-Shee, Major Martin M.

      Goldsmith, Frank

      Newdegate, F. A.

      Ashley, W. W.

      Gordon, John (Londonderry, South)

      Newman, John R. P.

      Astor, Waldorf

      Gordon, Hon. John Edward (Brighton)

      Newton, Harry Kottingham

      Baird, J. L.

      Goulding, Edward Alfred

      Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield)

      Balcarres, Lord

      Gretton, John

      Nield, Herbert

      Baldwin, Stanley

      Guinness, Hon. Rupert (Essex, S.E.)

      Norton-Griffiths, John

      Banbury, Sir Frederick George

      Guinness, Hon. W. E. (Bury S. Edmunds)

      O'Neill, Hon. A. E. B. (Antraim, Mid)

      Barnston, Harry

      Gwynne, R. S. (Sussex, Eastbourne)

      Orde-Powlett, Hon. W. G. A.

      Barrie, H. T.

      Hall, D. B. (Isle of Wight)

      Parkes, Ebenezer

      Bathurst, Charles (Wilts, Wilton)

      Hall, Fred (Dulwich)

      Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington)

      Beckett, Hon. Gervase

      Hall, Marshall (E. Toxteth)

      Peto, Basil Edward

      Benn, Arthur Shirley (Plymouth)

      Hamersley, Alfred St. George

      Pole-Carew, Sir R.

      Bentinck, Lord H. Cavendish-

      Hamilton, Lord C. J. (Kensington)

      Pollock, Ernest Murray

      Beresford, Lord C.

      Hamilton, Marquess of (Londonderry)

      Pryce-Jones, Col. E.

      Bigland, Alfred

      Hardy, Rt. Hon. Laurence

      Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel

      Bird, A.

      Harris, Henry Percy

      Remnant, James Farquharson

      Boles, Lieut.-Col. Dennis Fortescue

      Harrison-Broadley, H. B.

      Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall)

      Boscawen, Sir Arthur S. T. Griffith-

      Helmsley, Viscount

      Rolleston, Sir John

      Boyle, William (Norfolk, Mid)

      Henderson, Major H. (Berks, Abingdon)

      Ronaldshay, Earl of

      Boyton, James

      Herbert, Hon. A. (Somerset, S.)

      Rothschild, Lionel do

      Bull, Sir William James

      Hewins, William Albert Samuel

      Rutherford, Watson (L'pool, W. Derby)

      Burdett-Coutts, W.

      Hickman, Colonel T. E.

      Salter, Arthur Clavell

      Burgoyne, A. H.

      Hill, Sir Clement L.

      Samuel, Sir Harry (Norwood)

      Burn, Colonel C. R.

      Hills, John Waller

      Sanders, Robert A.

      Butcher, J. G.

      Hill-Wood, Samuel

      Sanderson, Lancelot

      Campbell, Capt. Duncan F. (Ayr, N.)

      Hoare, Samuel John Gurney

      Scott, Leslie (Liverpool, Exchange)

      Campbell, Rt. Hon. J. (Dublin Univ.)

      Hope, Harry (Bute)

      Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

      Campion, W. R.

      Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield)

      Smith, Harold (Warrington)

      Carlile, Sir Edward Hildred

      Hope, Major J. A. (Midlothian)

      Spear, Sir John Ward

      Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward H.

      Horner, Andrew Long

      Stanier, Beville

      Cassel, Felix

      Houston, Robert Paterson

      Stanley, Major Hon. G. F. (Preston)

      Castlereagh, Viscount

      Hume-Williams, William Ellis

      Starkey, John R.

      Cave, George

      Hunt, Rowland

      Steel-Maitland, A. D.

      Chaloner, Col. R. G. W.

      Hunter, Sir C. R. (Bath)

      Stewart, Gershom

      Chambers, J.

      Ingleby, Holcombe

      Strauss, Edward A. (Southwark, West)

      Clay, Capt. H. H. Spender

      Jardine, Ernest (Somerset, East)

      Swift, Rigby

      Clive, Captain Percy Archer

      Jessel, Captain H. M.

      Sykes, Alan John (Ches., Knutsford)

      Clyde, J. Avon

      Kebty-Fletcher, J. R.

      Sykes, Mark (Hull, Central)

      Coates, Major Sir Edward Feetham

      Kerr-Smiley, Peter Kerr

      Talbot, Lord E.

      Cooper, Richard Ashmole

      Kerry, Earl of

      Terrell, G. (Wilts, N.W.)

      Courthope, G. Loyd

      Kimber, Sir Henry

      Terrell, H. (Gloucester)

      Craig, Charles Curtis (Antrim, S.)

      Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement

      Thompson, W. Mitchell- (Down, N.)

      Craig, Ernest (Cheshire, Crewe)

      Knight, Captain E. A.

      Tobin, Alfred Aspinall

      Craig, Captain James (Down, E.)

      Lane-Fox, G. R.

      Touche, George Alexander

      Craig, Norman (Kent, Thanet)

      Larmor, Sir J.

      Tryon, Captain George Clement

      Crichton-Stuart, Lord Ninian

      Law, Rt. Hon. A. Bonar (Bootle)

      Valentia, Viscount

      Dalziel, D. (Brixton)

      Lawson, Hon. H. (T. H'mts., Mile End)

      Walrond, Hon. Lionel

      Dennis, E. R. B.

      Lewisham, Viscount

      Ward, A. S. (Herts, Watford)

      Dickson, Rt. Hon. C. Scott

      Locker-Lampson, G. (Salisbury)

      Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid)

      Dixon, C. H.

      Locker-Lampson, O. (Ramsey)

      White, Major G. D. (Lancs., South)

      Doughty, Sir George

      Lockwood, Rt. Hon. Lt.-Col. A. R.

      Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.)

      Duke, Henry Edward

      Lonsdale, Sir John Brownlee

      Wills, Sir Gilbert

      Eyres-Monsell, B. M.

      Lowe, Sir F. W. (Birm., Edgbaston)

      Wolmer, Viscount

      Faber, George Denison (Clapham)

      Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. A. (Hanover Sq.)

      Wood, Hon. E. F. L. (Ripon)

      Fell, Arthur

      Lyttelton, Hon. J. C. (Droitwich)

      Wood, John (Stalybridge)

      Fetherstonhaugh, Godfrey

      MacCaw, Wm. J. MacGeagh

      Worthington-Evans, L.

      Finlay, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert

      Mackinder, H. J.

      Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-

      Fisher, Rt. Hon. W. Hayes

      Macmaster, Donald

      Wright, Henry Fitzherbert

      Fleming, Valentine

      McNeill, Ronald (Kent, St. Augustine's)

      Yate, Col. Charles Edward

      Forster, Henry William

      Meysey-Thompson, E. C.

      Yerburgh, Robert A.

      Foster, Philip Staveley

      Middlemore, John Throgmorton

      Younger, Sir George

      Gardner, Ernest

      Mildmay, Francis Bingham

      Gastrell, Major W. H.

      Moore, William

      TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr.

      Gibbs, G. A.

      Morrison-Bell, Capt. E. F. (Ashburton)

      Hicks Beach and Mr. Greene.

      Government Amendment: In Sub-section (3), paragraph (a), after the word "brought" ["the country into which they are brought"], insert the words,
      "or if there is no such Excise Duty in the country from which the articles are sent, a duty equal to the drawback allowed on the exportation of similar articles manufactured or prepared in the country into which the article is brought or, if there is no such drawback, equal
      1134
      to the Customs Duty payable on the importation of a similar article into the country into which the article is brought."—[Mr Herbert Samuel.]
      Question put, "That the Amendment be made."
      Sir E. CARSON: What does the Amendment mean?
      Mr. MITCHELL-THOMSON(seated and covered): Do I understand that the

      1135
      Government do not move the Amendment in line 26? [In Sub-section (3), paragraph (a), after the word "levied" (equal to the amount of the Excise Duty levied"), to insert the words "on similar articles."]
      The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN (Mr. Maclean): That is so.
      The Committee divided: Ayes, 298; Noes, 192.

      Division No. 334.]

      AYES.

      [8.40 p.m.

      Abraham, William (Dublin, Harbour)

      Essex, Richard Walter

      Low, Sir Frederick (Norwich)

      Abraham, Rt. Hon. William (Rhondda)

      Esslemont, George Birnie

      Lundon, Thomas

      Acland, Francis Dyke

      Falconer, James

      Lyell, Charles Henry

      Adamson, Williamson

      Farrell, James Patrick

      Lynch, A. A.

      Addison, Dr. Christopher

      Fenwick, Rt. Hon. Charles

      Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester)

      Agnew, Sir George William

      Ffrench, Peter

      Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk Burghs)

      Allen, Arthur A. (Dumbarton)

      Field, William

      McGhee, Richard

      Allen, Rt. Hon. Charles P. (Stroud)

      Fiennes, Hon. Eustace Edward

      Macnamara, Rt. Hon. Dr. T. J.

      Arnold, Sydney

      Fitzgibbon, John

      MacNeill, J. G. Swift (Donegal, South)

      Asquith, Rt. Hon. Herbert Henry

      Flavin, Michael Joseph

      Macpherson, James Ian

      Baker, H. T. (Accrington)

      Gill, Alfred Henry

      MacVeagh, Jeremiah

      Baker, Joseph Allen (Finsbury, E.)

      Ginnell, L.

      M'Callum, Sir John M.

      Balfour, Sir Robert (Lanark)

      Gladstone, W. G. C.

      M'Curdy, C. A.

      Baring, Sir Godfrey (Barnstaple)

      Glanville, H. J.

      M'Kean, John

      Barlow, Sir John Emmott (Somerset)

      Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford

      McKenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald

      Barnes, G. N.

      Greenwood, Hamar (Sunderland)

      M'Laren, Hon. H. D. (Leics.)

      Barran, Sir J. (Hawick Burghs)

      Griffith, Ellis J.

      M'Laren, Hon. F. W. S. (Lincs., Spalding)

      Barton, William

      Gulland, John W.

      M'Micking, Major Gilbert

      Beauchamp, Sir Edward

      Gwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway)

      Manfield, Harry

      Benn, W. W. (Tower Hamlets, S. Geo.)

      Hackett, J.

      Marks, Sir George Croydon

      Bentham, G. J.

      Hall, F. (Yorks, Normanton)

      Martin, J.

      Bethell, Sir John Henry

      Hancock, J. G.

      Masterman, Rt. Hon. C. F. G.

      Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine

      Harcourt, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Rossendale)

      Meagher, Michael

      Black, Arthur W.

      Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose)

      Mechan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.)

      Boland, John Pius

      Harmsworth, R. L. (Caithness-shire)

      Menzies, Sir Waiter

      Booth, Frederick Handel

      Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale)

      Millar, James Duncan

      Bowerman, C. W.

      Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, W.)

      Molloy, M.

      Boyle, D. (Mayo, N.)

      Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N. E.)

      Molteno, Percy Alport

      Brace, William

      Haslam, James (Derbyshire)

      Mond, Sir Alfred M.

      Brady, P. J.

      Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth)

      Money, L. G. Chiozza

      Brocklehurst, W. B.

      Havelock-Allan, Sir Henry

      Mooney, John J.

      Bryce, J. Annan

      Hayden, John Patrick

      Morgan, George Hay

      Buckmaster, Stanley O.

      Hayward, Evan

      Morison, Hector

      Burke, E. Haviland-

      Hazleton, Richard

      Morton, Alpheus Cleophas

      Burns, Rt. Hon. John

      Helme, Sir Norval Watson

      Muldoon, John

      Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas

      Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

      Munro-Ferguson, Rt. Hon. R. C.

      Buxton, Rt. Hon. S. C. (Poplar)

      Henderson, J. M. (Aberdeen, W.)

      Murray, Captain Hon. Arthur C.

      Byles, Sir William Pollard

      Henry, Sir Charles

      Nannetti, Joseph P.

      Carr-Gomm, H. W.

      Hiqham, John Sharp

      Needham, Christopher

      Cawley, Sir Frederick (Prestwich)

      Hinds, John

      Nolan, Joseph

      Cawley, H. T. (Lancs., Heywood)

      Hobhouse, Rt. Hon. Charles E.

      Norton, Captain Cecil W.

      Chapple, Dr. William Allen

      Hodge, John

      Nugent, Sir Walter Richard

      Clancy, John Joseph

      Hogge, James Myles

      Nuttall, Harry

      Clough, William

      Holmes, Daniel Turner

      O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

      Clynes, John R.

      Hope, John Deans (Haddington)

      O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)

      Collins, G. P. (Greenock)

      Horne, C. Silvester (Ipswich)

      O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)

      Compton-Rickett, Rt. Hon. Sir J.

      Hudson, Walter

      O'Doherty, Philip

      Condon, Thomas Joseph

      Hughes, Spencer Leigh

      O'Donnell, Thomas

      Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.

      Illingworth, Percy H.

      O'Dowd, John

      Cotton, William Francis

      Isaacs, Rt. Hon. Sir Rufus

      Ogden, Fred

      Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth)

      Jardine, Sir J. (Roxburgh)

      O'Grady, James

      Crawshay-Williams, Eliot

      John, Edward Thomas

      O'Kelly, Edward P. (Wicklow)

      Crooks, William

      Jones, Rt. Hon. Sir D. Brynmor (Swansea)

      O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N.)

      Crumley, Patrick

      Jones, Edgar R. (Merthyr Tydvil)

      O'Malley, William

      Cullinan, J.

      Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)

      O'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, S.)

      Dalziel, Rt. Hon. Sir J. H. (Kirkcaldy)

      Jones, J. Towyn (Carmarthen, East)

      O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

      Davies, Ellis William (Eifion)

      Jones, Leif Stratten (Rushcliffe)

      O'Shee, James John

      Davies, Timothy (Lincs., Louth)

      Jones, William (Carnarvonshire)

      O'Sullivan, Timothy

      Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.)

      Jones, W. S. Glyn- (T. H'mts, Stepney)

      Palmer, Godfrey Mark

      Dawes, James Arthur

      Jowett, Frederick William

      Parker, James (Halifax)

      De Forest, Baron

      Joyce, Michael

      Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek)

      Delany, William

      Keating, Matthew

      Pearce, William (Limehouse)

      Denman, Hon. R. D.

      Kellaway, Frederick George

      Pease, Rt. Hon. Joseph A. (Rotherham)

      Devlin, Joseph

      Kennedy, Vincent Paul

      Phillips, John (Longford, S.)

      Donelan, Captain A.

      Kilbride, Denis

      Pirie, Duncan V.

      Doris, W.

      King, J.

      Pointer, Joseph

      Duffy, William J.

      Lambert, Rt. Hon. G. (Devon, S. Molton)

      Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H.

      Duncan, J. Hastings (Yorks, Otley)

      Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade)

      Power, Patrick Joseph

      Edwards, Clement (Glamorgan, E.)

      Lardner, James Carrige Rushe

      Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central)

      Edwards, Sir Francis (Radnor)

      Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, West)

      Priestley, Sir Arthur (Grantham)

      Edwards, John Hugh (Glamorgan, Mid)

      Lawson, Sir W. (Cumb'rld, Cockerm'th)

      Priestley, Sir W. E. B. (Bradford, E.)

      Elverston, sir Harold

      Leach, Charles

      Pringle, William M. R.

      Esmonde, Sir Thomas (Wexford, N.)

      Lewis, John Herbert

      Radford, George Heynes

      Raffan, Peter Wilson

      Seely, Col. Rt. Hon. J. E. B.

      Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent)

      Raphael, Sir Herbert H.

      Sheehy, David

      Wardle, George J.

      Rea, Rt. Hon. Russell (South Shields)

      Sherwell, Arthur James

      Waring, Walter

      Rea, Walter Russell (Scarborough)

      Shortt, Edward

      Warner, Sir Thomas Courtenay

      Reddy, Michael

      Simon, Sir John Allsebrook

      Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney)

      Redmond, John E. (Waterford)

      Smith, Albert (Lancs., Clitheroe)

      Webb, H.

      Redmond, William (Clare, E.)

      Smith, H. B. L. (Northampton)

      Wedgwood, Josiah C.

      Redmond, William Archer (Tyrone, E.)

      Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.)

      White, J. Dundas (Glasgow, Tradeston)

      Rendall, Athelstan

      Snowden, Philip

      White, Patrick (Meath, North)

      Richardson, Albion (Peckham)

      Soames, Arthur Wellesley

      Whitehouse, John Howard

      Richardson, Thomas (Whitehaven)

      Spicer, Rt. Hon. Sir Albert

      Whittaker, Rt. Hon. Sir Thomas P.

      Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)

      Stanley, Albert (Staffs., N.W.)

      Whyte, A. F. (Perth)

      Roberts, Sir J. H. (Denbighs)

      Strauss, Edward A. (Southwark, West)

      Wilkie, Alexander

      Robertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradford)

      Sutherland, J. E.

      Williams, J. (Glamorgan)

      Robertson, John M. (Tyneside)

      Sutton, John E.

      Williams, Llewelyn (Carmarthen)

      Robinson, Sidney

      Taylor, John W. (Durham)

      Williams, Penry (Middlesbrough)

      Roch, Walter F. (Pembroke)

      Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)

      Wilson, Hon. G. G. (Hull, W.)

      Roche, Augustine (Louth)

      Taylor, Thomas (Bolton)

      Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)

      Roche, John (Galway, E.)

      Tennant, Harold John

      Winfrey, Richard

      Roe, Sir Thomas

      Thomas, J. H.

      Wood, Rt. Hon. T. McKinnon (Glas.)

      Rowlands, James

      Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton)

      Young, Samuel (Cavan, East)

      Rowntree, Arnold

      Thorne, William (West Ham)

      Young, W. (Perthshire, E.)

      Russell, Rt. Hon. Thomas W.

      Toulmin, Sir George

      Yoxall, Sir James Henry

      Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland)

      Ure, Rt. Hon. Alexander

      Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees)

      Verney, Sir Harry

      TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr. G.

      Scanlan, Thomas

      Wadsworth, J.

      Howard and Captain Guest.

      Scott, A. MacCallum (Bridgeton)

      Walsh, Stephen (Lancs, Ince)

      NOES.

      Aitken, Sir William Max

      Faber, George Denison (Clapham)

      Lane-Fox, G. R.

      Amery, L. C. M. S.

      Fell, Arthur

      Larmor, Sir J.

      Archer-Shee, Major M.

      Fetherstonhaugh, Godfrey

      Law, Rt. Hon. A. Bonar (Bootle)

      Ashley, Wilfrid W.

      Finlay, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert

      Lawson, Hon. H. (T. H'mts, Mile End)

      Baird, J. L.

      Fisher, Rt. Hon. W. Hayes

      Lewisham, Viscount

      Balcarres, Lord

      Fleming, Valentine

      Lloyd, G. A.

      Baldwin, Stanley

      Forster, Henry William

      Locker-Lampson, G. (Salisbury)

      Banbury, Sir Frederick George

      Foster, Philip Staveley

      Locker-Lampson, O. (Ramsey)

      Barnston, H.

      Gardner, Ernest

      Lockwood, Rt. Hon. Lt.-Col. A. R.

      Barrie, H. T.

      Gastrell, Major W. H.

      Lonsdale, Sir John Brownlee

      Bathurst, Charles (Wilts, Wilton)

      Gibbs, G. A.

      Lowe, Sir F. W. (Birm., Edgbaston)

      Beach, Hon. Michael Hugh Hicks

      Goldman, C. S.

      Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. A. (S. Geo. Han. S.)

      Beckett, Hon. Gervase

      Goldsmith, Frank

      MacCaw, William J. MacGeagh

      Benn, Arthur Shirley (Plymouth)

      Gordon, John (Londonderry, South)

      Mackinder, H. J.

      Bentinck, Lord Henry Cavendish-

      Gordon, Hon. John Edward (Brighton)

      Macmaster, Donald

      Beresford, Lord C.

      Goulding, Edward Alfred

      M'Neill, Ronald (Kent, St. Augustine's)

      Bigland, Alfred

      Greene, Walter Raymond

      Meysey-Thompson, E. C.

      Bird, A.

      Guinness, Hon. Rupert (Essex, S.E.)

      Middlemore, John Throgmorton

      Boles, Lieut.-Col. Dennis Fortescue

      Guinness, Hon. W. E. (Bury S. Edmunds)

      Mildmay, Francis Bingham

      Boscawen, Sir Arthur S. T. Griffith-

      Gwynne, R. S. (Sussex, Eastbourne)

      Moore, William

      Boyle, William (Norfolk, Mid)

      Hall, D. B. (Isle of Wight)

      Morrison-Bell, Capt. E. F. (Ashburton)

      Boyton, James

      Hall, Fred (Dulwich)

      Mount, William Arthur

      Bull, Sir William James

      Hall, Marshall (E. Toxteth)

      Neville, Reginald J. N.

      Burdett-Coutts, William

      Hamersley, Alfred St. George

      Newdegate, F. A.

      Burgoyne, A. H,

      Hamilton, Lord C. J. (Kensington)

      Newman, John R. P.

      Burn, Colonel C. R.

      Hamilton, Marquess of (Londonderry)

      Newton, Harry Kottingham

      Butcher, John George

      Hardy, Rt. Hon. Laurence

      Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield)

      Campbell, Capt. Duncan F. (Ayr, N.)

      Harris, Henry Percy

      Nield, Herbert

      Campbell, Rt. Hon. J. (Dublin Univ.)

      Harrison-Broadley, H. B.

      Norton-Griffiths, J.

      Campion, W. R.

      Helmsley, Viscount

      O'Neill, Hon. A. E. B. (Antrim, Mid)

      Carlile, Sir Edward Hildred

      Henderson, Major H. (Berks, Abingdon)

      Orde-Powlett, Hon. W. G. A.

      Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward H.

      Herbert, Hon. A. (Somerset, S.)

      Parkes, Ebenezer

      Cassel, Felix

      Hewins, William Albert Samuel

      Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington)

      Castlereagh, Viscount

      Hickman, Colonel Thomas E.

      Peto, Basil Edward

      Cave, George

      Hill, Sir Clement L.

      Pole-Carew, Sir R.

      Chaloner, Col. R. G. W.

      Hills, John Waller

      Pollock, Ernest Murray

      Chambers, J.

      Hill-Wood, Samuel

      Pryce-Jones, Col. E.

      Clay, Captain H. H. Spender

      Hoare, Samuel John Gurney

      Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel

      Clive, Captain Percy Archer

      Hope, Harry (Bute)

      Remnant, James Farquharson

      Clyde, James Avon

      Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield)

      Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall)

      Coates, Major Sir Edward Feetham

      Hope, Major J. A. (Midlothian)

      Rolleston, Sir John

      Cooper, Richard Ashmole

      Horner, Andrew Long

      Ronaldshay, Earl of

      Courthope, G. Loyd

      Houston, Robert Paterson

      Rutherford, Watson (L'pool, W. Derby)

      Craig, Charles Curtis (Antrim, S.)

      Hume-Williams, William Ellis

      Salter, Arthur Claveil

      Craig, Captain James (Down, E.)

      Hunt, Rowland

      Samuel, Sir Harry (Norwood)

      Craig, Norman (Kent, Thanet)

      Hunter, Sir C. R.

      Sanders, Robert A.

      Crichton-Stuart, Lord Ninian

      Ingleby, Holcombe

      Sanderson, Lancelot

      Dalziel, Davison (Brixton)

      Jardine, Ernest (Somerset, East)

      Scott, Leslie (Liverpool, Exchange)

      Denniss, E. R. B.

      Jessel, Captain H. M.

      Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

      Dickson, Rt. Hon. C. Scott

      Kebty-Fletcher, J. R.

      Smith, Harold (Warrington)

      Dixon, C. H.

      Kerr-Smiley, Peter Kerr

      Spear, Sir John Ward

      Doughty, Sir George

      Kerry, Earl of

      Stanier, Beville

      Duke, Henry Edward

      Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement

      Stanley, Hon. G. F. (Preston)

      Eyres-Monsell, B. M.

      Knight, Captain E. A.

      Starkey, John Ralph

      1138

      1139

      Steel-Maitland, A. D.

      Touche, George Alexander

      Wood, John (Stalybridge)

      Stewart, Gershom

      Tryon, Captain George Clement

      Worthington-Evans, L.

      Strauss, Edward A. (Southwark, West)

      Valentia, Viscount

      Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-

      Swift, Rigby

      Walrond, Hon. Lionel

      Wright, Henry Fitzherbert

      Sykes, Alan, John (Ches., Knutsford)

      Ward, Arnold S. (Herts, Watford)

      Yate, Col. C. E.

      Sykes, Mark (Hull Central)

      Warde, Colonel C. E. (Kent, Mid)

      Yerburgh, Robert A.

      Talbot, Lord E.

      White, Major G. D. (Lancs., Southport)

      Younger, Sir George

      Terrell, George (Wilts, N.W.)

      Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.)

      Terrell, H. (Gloucester)

      Wills, Sir Gilbert

      TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr.

      Thomson, W. Mitchell- (Down, North)

      Wolmer, Viscount

      E. Craig and Mr. John Lyttelton.

      Tobin, Alfred Aspinall

      Wood, Hon. E. F. L. (Yorks, Ripon)

      Government Amendment: At the end of Sub-section (3), to insert the words,
      "in cases where a drawback would be allowed on the exportation of the articles from that country or, if no Excise Duty is levied in the country into which the articles are sent, equal to the
      drawback allowed on exportation."—[Mr. Herbert Samuel.]
      Question put, "That the Amendment be made."
      The Committee divided: Ayes, 291; Noes, 187.

      Division No. 335.]

      AYES.

      [8.51 p.m.

      Abraham, William (Dublin, Harbour)

      Davies, Timothy (Lincs, Louth)

      Hodge, John

      Abraham, Rt. Hon. William (Rhondda)

      Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.)

      Hogge, James Myles

      Acland, Francis Dyke

      Dawes, J. A.

      Holmes, Daniel Turner

      Adamson, William

      De Forest, Baron

      Home, Charles Silvester (Ipswich)

      Addison, Dr. C

      Delany, William

      Howard, Hon. Geoffrey

      Agnew, Sir George William

      Denman, Hon. Richard Douglas

      Hudson, Walter

      Allen, A. A. (Dumbartonshire)

      Devlin, Joseph

      Hughes, S. L.

      Allen, Rt. Hon. Charles P. (Stroud)

      Dillon, John

      Illingworth, Percy H.

      Arnold, Sydney

      Donelan, Captain A.

      Isaacs, Rt. Hon. Sir Rufus

      Asquith, Rt. Hon. Herbert Henry

      Doris, W.

      Jardine, Sir J. (Roxburgh)

      Baker, H. T. (Accrington)

      Duffy, William J.

      John, Edward Thomas

      Baker, Joseph A. (Finsbury, E.)

      Duncan, J. Hastings (Yorks, Otley)

      Jones, Rt. Hon. Sir D. Brynmor (Swansea)

      Balfour, Sir Robert

      Edwards, Clement (Glamorgan, E.)

      Jones, Edgar R. (Merthyr Tydvil)

      Baring, Sir Godfrey (Barnstaple)

      Edwards, Sir Francis (Radnor)

      Jones, H. Haydn (Merioneth)

      Barlow, Sir John Emmott (Somerset)

      Edwards, John Hugh (Glamorgan, Mid)

      Jones, J. Towyn (Carmarthen, East)

      Barnes, George N.

      Elverston, Sir Harold

      Jones, Leif Stratten (Notts, Rushcliffe)

      Barran, Sir J. N. (Hawick Burghs)

      Esmonde, Dr. John (Tipperary, N.)

      Jones, W. S. Glyn- (T. H'mts, Stepney)

      Barton, William

      Esmonde, Sir Thomas (Wexford, N.)

      Joyce, Michael

      Beauchamp, Sir Edward

      Essex, Richard Walter

      Keating, M.

      Benn, W. W. (T. H'mts., St. George)

      Esslemont, George Birnle

      Kellaway, Frederick George

      Bentham, G. J.

      Falconer, J.

      Kennedy, Vincent Paul

      Bethell, Sir J. H.

      Farrell, James Patrick

      Kilbride, Denis

      Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine

      Fenwick, Rt. Hon. Charles

      King, Joseph

      Black, Arthur W.

      Ffrench, Peter

      Lambert, Rt. Hon. G. (Devon, S. Molton)

      Boland, John Pius

      Field, William

      Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade)

      Booth, Frederick Handel

      Fitzgibbon, John

      Lardner, James Carrige Rushe

      Bowerman, C. W.

      Flavin, Michael Joseph

      Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, West)

      Boyle, D. (Mayo, N.)

      Gill, A. H.

      Lawson, Sir W. (Cumb'rld, Cockerm'th)

      Brace, William

      Ginnell, L.

      Leach, Charles

      Brady, P. J.

      Gladstone, W. G. C.

      Lewis, John Herbert

      Brocklehurst, W. B.

      Glanville, H. J.

      Low, Sir F. (Norwich)

      Bryce, J. Annan

      Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford

      Lundon, T.

      Buckmaster, Stanley O.

      Greenwood, Hamar (Sunderland)

      Lyell, Charles Henry

      Burke, E. Haviland-

      Griffith, Ellis J.

      Lynch, A. A.

      Burns, Rt. Hon. John

      Guest, Hon. Frederick E. (Dorset, E.)

      Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester)

      Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas

      Gulland, John William

      Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk Burghs)

      Buxton, Rt. Hon. Sidney C. (Poplar)

      Gwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway)

      McGhee, Richard

      Byles, Sir William Pollard

      Hackett, John

      Macnamara, Rt. Hon. Dr T. J

      Carr-Gomm, H. W.

      Hall, Frederick (Normanton)

      MacNeill, J. G. Swift (Donegal, South)

      Cawley, Sir Frederick (Prestwich)

      Hancock, J. G.

      Macpherson, James Ian

      Cawley, Harold T. (Heywood)

      Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Lewis (Rossendale)

      MacVeagh, Jeremiah

      Chancellor, H. G.

      Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose)

      M'Callum, Sir John M.

      Chapple, Dr. William Allen

      Harmsworth, R. L. (Caithness-shire)

      M'Kean, John

      Clancy, John Joseph

      Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale)

      McKenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald

      Clough, William

      Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, W.)

      M'Laren, Hon. H. D. (Leics.)

      Clynes, J. R.

      Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N.E.)

      M'Laren, Hon. F. W. S. (Lincs., Spalding)

      Collins, G. P. (Greenock)

      Haslam, James (Derbyshire)

      M'Micking, Major Gilbert

      Compton-Rickett, Rt. Hon. Sir J.

      Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth)

      Marks, Sir George Croydon

      Condon, Thomas Joseph

      Havelock-Allan, Sir Henry

      Martin, Joseph

      Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.

      Hayden, John Patrick

      Mason, David M. (Coventry)

      Cotton, William Francis

      Hazleton, Richard

      Masterman, Rt. Hon. C. F. G.

      Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth)

      Helme, Sir Norval Watson

      Meagher, Michael

      Crawshay-Williams, Eliot

      Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

      Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.)

      Crooks, William

      Henderson, J. M. (Aberdeen, W.)

      Menzies, Sir Waiter

      Crumley, Patrick

      Henry, Sir Charles

      Millar, James Duncan

      Cullinan, John

      Higham, John Sharp

      Molloy, M.

      Dalziel, Rt. Hon. Sir J. H. (Kirkcaldy)

      Hinds, John

      Molteno, Percy Alport

      Davies, Ellis William (Eifion)

      Hobhouse, Rt. Hon. Charles E. H.

      Mond, Sir Alfred Moritz

      Money, L. G. Chiozza

      Priestley, Sir Arthur (Grantham)

      Strauss, Edward A. (Southward West)

      Mooney, J. J.

      Priestley, Sir W. E. B. (Bradford)

      Sutherland, J. E.

      Morgan, George Hay

      Pringle, William M. R.

      Sutton, John E.

      Morison, Hector

      Raffan, Peter Wilson

      Taylor, John W. (Durham)

      Morton, Alpheus Cleophas

      Raphael, Sir Herbert H.

      Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)

      Muldoon, John

      Rea, Rt. Hon. Russell (South Shields)

      Taylor, Thomas (Bolton)

      Munro-Ferguson, Rt. Hon. R. C.

      Rea, Walter Russell (Scarborough)

      Tennant, Harold John

      Murray, Captain Hon. A. C.

      Reddy, M.

      Thomas, J. H.

      Nannetti, Joseph P.

      Redmond, John E. (Waterford)

      Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton)

      Needham, Christopher T.

      Redmond, William (Clare, E.)

      Thorne, William (West Ham)

      Nicholson, Sir Charles N. (Doncaster)

      Redmond, William Archer (Tyrone, E.)

      Toulmin, Sir George

      Nolan, Joseph

      Rendall, Athelstan

      Ure, Rt. Hon. Alexander

      Norton, Captain Cecil W.

      Richardson, Albion (Peckham)

      Verney, Sir Harry

      Nugent, Sir Walter Richard

      Richardson, Thomas (Whitehaven)

      Wadsworth, J.

      Nuttall, Harry

      Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)

      Walsh, Stephen (Lancs., Ince)

      O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

      Roberts, Sir J. H. (Denbighs)

      Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent)

      O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)

      Robertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradford)

      Wardle, George J.

      O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)

      Robertson, John M. (Tyneside)

      Waring, Walter

      O'Doherty, Philip

      Robinson, Sidney

      Warner, Sir Thomas Courtenay

      O'Donnell, Thomas

      Roch, Walter F.

      Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney)

      O'Dowd, John

      Roche, Augustine, Louth)

      Wedgwood, Josiah C.

      Ogden, Fred

      Roe, Sir Thomas

      White, J. Dundas (Glasgow, Tradeston)

      O'Grady, James

      Rowlands, James

      White, Patrick (Meath, North)

      O'Kelly, Edward P. (Wicklow)

      Rowntree, Arnold

      Whittaker, Rt. Hon. Sir Thomas P.

      O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N.)

      Russell, Rt. Hon. Thomas W.

      Whyte, A. F. (Perth)

      O'Malley, William

      Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland)

      Wilkie, Alexander

      O'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, S.)

      Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees)

      Williams, J. (Glamorgan)

      O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

      Scanlan, Thomas

      Williams, Llewelyn (Carmarthen)

      O'Shee, James John

      Scott, A. MacCallum (Glas., Bridgeton)

      Williams, P. (Middlesbrough)

      O'Sullivan, Timothy

      Seely, Col. Rt. Hon. J. E. B.

      Wilson, Hon. G. G. (Hull, W.)

      Palmer, Godfrey Mark

      Sheehy, David

      Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)

      Parker, James (Halifax)

      Sherwell, Arthur James

      Winfrey, Richard

      Pearce, William (Limehouse)

      Shortt, Edward

      Wood, Rt. Hon. T. McKinnon (Glas.)

      Pease, Rt. Hon. J. A. (Rotherham)

      Simon, Sir John Allsebrook

      Young, Samuel (Cavan, E.)

      Phillips, John (Longford, S.)

      Smith, Albert (Lancs., Clitheroe)

      Young, W. (Perthshire, E.)

      Pirie, Duncan V.

      Smith, H. B. L. (Northampton)

      Yoxall, Sir James Heury

      Pointer, Joseph

      Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.)

      Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H.

      Snowden, Philip

      TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr.

      Power, Patrick Joseph

      Spicer, Rt. Hon. Sir Albert

      W. Jones and Mr. Webb.

      Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central)

      Stanley, Albert (Staffs, N.W.)

      NOES.

      Adkins, Sir W. Ryland D.

      Courthope, George Loyd

      Henderson, Major H. (Berks, Abingdon)

      Amery, L. C. M. S.

      Craig, Charles Curtis (Antrim, S.)

      Herbert, Hon. A. (Somerset, S.)

      Ashley, W. W.

      Craig, Ernest (Cheshire, Crewe)

      Hewins, William Albert Samuel

      Baird, J. L.

      Craig, Captain James (Down, E.)

      Hill, Sir Clement L.

      Balcarres, Lord

      Craig, Norman (Kent, Thanet)

      Hills, John Waller

      Baldwin, Stanley

      Crichton-Stuart, Lord Ninian

      Hill-Wood, Samuel

      Banbury, Sir Frederick George

      Croft, Henry Page

      Hoare, S. J. G.

      Barnston, H.

      Dalziel, D. (Brixton)

      Hohler, G. F.

      Barrie, H. T.

      Denniss, E. R. B.

      Hope, Harry (Bute)

      Bathurst, Charles (Wilts, Wilton)

      Dickson, Rt. Hon. C. Scott

      Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield)

      Beach, Hon. Michael Hugh Hicks

      Dixon, C. H.

      Hope, Major J. A. (Midlothian)

      Benn, Arthur Shirley (Plymouth)

      Doughty, Sir George

      Horner, A. L.

      Bentinck, Lord H. Cavendish-

      Duke, Henry Edward

      Houston, Robert Paterson

      Beresford, Lord C.

      Eyres-Monsell, B. M.

      Hume-Williams, W. E.

      Bigland, Alfred

      Faber, George Denison (Clapham)

      Hunt, Rowland

      Bird, A.

      Fell, Arthur

      Hunter, Sir Charles

      Boles, Lieut.-Col. Dennis Fortescue

      Fetherstonhaugh, Godfrey

      Ingleby, Holcombe

      Boscawen, Sir Arthur S. T. Griffith-

      Finlay, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert

      Jardine, E. (Somerset, E.)

      Boyle, William (Norfolk, Mid)

      Fisher, Rt. Hon. W. Hayes

      Jessell, Captain H. M.

      Boyton, J.

      Forster, Henry William

      Kebty-Fletcher, J. R.

      Bull, Sir William James

      Gardner, Ernest

      Kerr-Smiley, Peter Kerr

      Burdett-Coutts, W.

      Gastrell, Major W. H.

      Kerry, Earl of

      Burn, Colonel C. R.

      Goldman, C. S.

      Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement

      Butcher, John George

      Goldsmith, Frank

      Knight, Captain E. A.

      Campbell, Captain Duncan F. (Ayr, N.)

      Gordon, John (Londonderry, South)

      Lane-Fox, G. R.

      Campbell, Rt. Hon. J. (Dublin Univ.)

      Gordon, Hon. John Edward (Brighton)

      Larmor, Sir J.

      Campion, W. R.

      Colliding, Edward Alfred

      Law, Rt. Hon. A. Bonar (Bootle)

      Carlile, Sir Edward Hildred

      Greene, W. R.

      Lawson, Hon. H. (T. H'mts, Mile End)

      Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward H.

      Gretton, John

      Lewisham, Viscount

      Cassel, Felix

      Guinness, Hon. Rupert (Essex, S.E.)

      Lloyd, G. A.

      Castlereagh, Viscount

      Guinness, Hon. W. E. (Bury S. Edmunds)

      Locker-Lampson, G. (Salisbury)

      Cave, George

      Gwynne, R. S. (Sussex, Eastbourne)

      Locker-Lampson, O. (Ramsey)

      Cecil, Lord R. (Herts, Hitchin)

      Hall, Fred (Dulwich)

      Lockwood, Rt. Hon. Lt.-Col. A. R.

      Chaloner, Col. R. G. W.

      Hamersley, A. St. George

      Lonsdale, Sir John Brownlee

      Chambers, J.

      Hamilton, Lord C. J. (Kensington, S.)

      Lowe, Sir F. W. (Birm., Edgbaston)

      Clay, Captain H. H. Spender

      Hamilton, Marquess of (Londonderry)

      Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. A. (S. Geo. Han. S.)

      Clive, Captain Percy Archer

      Hardy, Rt. Hon. Laurence

      Lyttelton, Hon. J. C. (Droitwich)

      Clyde, J. Avon

      Harris, Henry Percy

      MacCaw, Wm. J. MacGeagh

      Coates, Major Sir Edward Feetham

      Harrison-Broadley, H. B.

      Mackinder, H. J.

      Cooper, Richard Ashmole

      Helmsley, Viscount

      Macmaster, Donald

      1142

      1143

      M'Neill, Ronald (Kent, St. Augustine's)

      Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall)

      Tobin, Alfred Aspinall

      Magnus, Sir Philip

      Rolleston, Sir John

      Touche, George Alexander

      Meysey-Thompson, E. C.

      Ronaldshay, Earl of

      Tryon, Capt. George Clement

      Middlemore, John Throgmorton

      Rutherford, Watson (L'pool, W. Derby)

      Valentia, Viscount

      Mildmay, Francis Bingham

      Samuel, Sir Harry (Norwood)

      Walrond, Hon. Lionel

      Moore, William

      Sanders, Robert A.

      Ward, Arnold S. (Herts, Watford)

      Morrison-Bell, Capt. E. F. (Ashburton)

      Sanderson, Lancelot

      Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid)

      Mount, William Arthur

      Scott, Leslie (Liverpool, Exchange)

      White, Major G. D. (Lancs., Southport)

      Neville, Reginald J. N.

      Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

      Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.)

      Newdegate, F. A.

      Smith, Harold (Warrington)

      Wills, Sir Gilbert

      Newman, John R. P.

      Spear, Sir John Ward

      Wood, Hon. E. F. L. (Ripon)

      Newton, Harry Kottingharn

      Stanier, Beville

      Wood, Hon. E. F. L. (Ripon)

      Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield)

      Stanley, Hon. G. F. (Preston)

      Wood, John (Stalybridge)

      Nield, Herbert

      Starkey, John R.

      Worthington-Evans, L.

      O'Neill, Hon. A. E. B. (Antrim, Mid)

      Steel-Maitland, A. D.

      Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-

      Orde-Powlett, Hon. W. G. A.

      Stewart, Gershom

      Wright, Henry Fitzherbert

      Parkes, Ebenezer

      Strauss, Edward A. (Southwark, West)

      Yate, Col. C. E.

      Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington)

      Swift, Rigby

      Yerburgh, Robert A.

      Peto, Basil Edward

      Sykes, Alan John (Ches., Knutsford)

      Younger, Sir George

      Pole-Carew, Sir R.

      Sykes, Mark (Hull, Central)

      Pollock, Ernest Murray

      Talbot, Lord E.

      Price-Jones, Col. E.

      Terrell, G. (Wilts, N.W.)

      TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr.

      Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel

      Terrell, Henry (Gloucester)

      Douglas Hall and Mr. Marshall Hall.

      Remnant, James Farquharson

      Thomson, W. Mitchell- (Down, North)

      Government Amendment: At the end of paragraph (b), in Sub-section (3), after the words last added, to insert the words,
      "The Excise Duty on a licence granted to a manufacturer of any article, the amount of which varies either directly or indirectly according to the amount of the article manufactured, shall be treated for the purposes of this
      Sub-section as an Excise Duty on the article manufactured."—[Mr. Herbert Samuel.]
      Question put, "That the Amendment be made."
      The Committee divided: Ayes, 297; Noes, 101.

      Division No. 336.]

      AYES.

      [9.3 p.m.

      Abraham, William (Dublin, Harbour)

      Chancellor, Henry George

      Fiennes, Hon. Eustace Edward

      Abraham, Rt. Hon. William (Rhondda)

      Chapple, Dr. William Allen

      Fitzgibbon, John

      Acland, Francis Dyke

      Clancy, John Joseph

      Flavin, Michael Joseph

      Adamson, William

      Clough, William

      Gill, A. H.

      Addison, Dr. C.

      Clynes, John R.

      Ginnell, L.

      Adkins, Sir W. Ryland D.

      Collins, G. P. (Greenock)

      Gladstone, W. G. C.

      Agnew, Sir George William

      Compton-Rickett, Rt. Hon. Sir J.

      Glanville, H. J.

      Allen, A. A. (Dumbartonshire)

      Condon, Thomas Joseph

      Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford

      Allen, Rt. Hon. Charles P. (Stroud)

      Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.

      Greenwood, Granville G. (Peterborough)

      Arnold, Sydney

      Cotton, William Francis

      Greenwood, Hamar (Sunderland)

      Asquith, Rt. Hon. Herbert Henry

      Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth)

      Griffith, Ellis J.

      Baker, H. T. (Accrington)

      Crawshay-Williams, Eliot

      Guest, Hon. Frederick E. (Dorset, E.)

      Baker, Joseph Allen (Finsbury, E.)

      Crooks, William

      Gulland, John William

      Balfour, Sir Robert (Lanark)

      Crumley, Patrick

      Gwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway)

      Baring, Sir Godfrey (Barnstaple)

      Cullinan, J.

      Hackett, John

      Barlow, Sir John Emmott (Somerset)

      Dalziel, Rt. Hon. Sir J. H. (Kirkcaldy)

      Hall, Frederick (Normanton)

      Barnes, G. N.

      Davies, Ellis William (Eifion)

      Hancock, J. G.

      Barran, Sir J. N. (Hawick Burghs)

      Davies, Timothy (Lincs., Louth)

      Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Lewis (Rossendale)

      Barton, William

      Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.)

      Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose)

      Beauchamp, Sir Edward

      Dawes, J. A.

      Harmsworth, R. L. (Caithness-shire)

      Benn, W. W. (Tower Hamlets, St. Geo.)

      De Forest, Baron

      Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale)

      Bentham, G. J.

      Delany, William

      Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, West)

      Bethell, Sir J. H.

      Denman, Hon. R. D.

      Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N.E.)

      Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine

      Devlin, Joseph

      Haslam, James (Derbyshire)

      Black, Arthur W.

      Dillon, John

      Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth)

      Boland, John Pius

      Donelan, Captain A.

      Havelock-Allan, Sir Henry

      Booth, Frederick Handel

      Doris, William

      Hayden, John Patrick

      Bowerman, C. W.

      Duffy, William J.

      Hayward, Evan

      Boyle, Daniel (Mayo, North)

      Duncan, J. Hastings (York, Otley)

      Hazleton, Richard

      Brace, William

      Edwards, Clement (Glamorgan, E.)

      Helme, Sir Norval Watson

      Brady, P. J.

      Edwards, Sir Francis (Radnor)

      Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

      Brocklehurst, William B.

      Edwards, John Hugh (Glamorgan, Mid)

      Henderson, J. M. (Aberdeen, W.)

      Bryce, J. Annan

      Elverston, Sir Harold

      Henry, Sir Charles

      Buckmaster, Stanley O.

      Esmonde, Dr. John (Tipperary, N.)

      Higham, John Sharp

      Burke, E. Haviland-

      Esmonde, Sir Thomas (Wexford, N.)

      Hinds, John

      Burns, Rt. Hon. John

      Essex, Richard Walter

      Hobhouse, Rt. Hon. Charles E. H.

      Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas

      Esslemont, George Birnie

      Hodge, John

      Buxton, Rt. Hon. S. C. (Poplar)

      Falconer, James

      Hogge, James Myles

      Byles, Sir William Pollard

      Farrell, James Patrick

      Holmes, Daniel Turner

      Carr-Gomm, H. W.

      Fenwick, Rt. Hon. Charles

      Horne, C. Silvester (Ipswich)

      Cawley, Sir Frederick (Prestwich)

      Ffrench, Peter

      Howard, Hon. Geoffrey

      Cawley, H. T. (Lancs., Heywood)

      Field, William

      Hudson, Walter

      Hughes, Spencer Leigh

      Murray, Captain Hon. Arthur C.

      Rowlands, James

      Illingworth, Percy H.

      Nannetti, Joseph P.

      Rowntree, Arnold

      Isaacs, Rt. Hon. Sir Rufus

      Needham, Christopher T.

      Russell, Rt. Hon. Thomas W.

      Jardine, Sir J. (Roxburgh)

      Nicholson, Sir Charles N. (Doncaster)

      Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland)

      John, Edward Thomas

      Nolan, Joseph

      Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees)

      Jones, Rt. Hon. Sir D. Brynmor (Swansea)

      Norton, Captain Cecil W.

      Scanlan, Thomas

      Jones, Edgar (Merthyr Tydvil)

      Nugent, Sir Walter Richard

      Scott, A. MacCallum (Glas., Bridgeton)

      Jones, H. Haydn (Merioneth)

      Nuttall, Harry

      Seely, Colonel Rt. Hon. J. E. B.

      Jones, J. Towyn (Carmarthen, East)

      O Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

      Sheehy, David

      Jones, Leif Stratten (Rushcliffe)

      O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)

      Sherwell, Arthur James

      Jones, W. S. Glyn- (T. H'mts, Stepney)

      O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)

      Shortt, Edward

      Joyce, Michael

      O'Doherty, Philip

      Simon, Sir John Allsebrook

      Keating, Matthew

      O'Donnell, Thomas

      Smith, Albert (Lancs., Clitheroe)

      Kellaway, Frederick George

      O'Dowd, John

      Smith, H. B. Lees (Northampton)

      Kennedy, Vincent Paul

      Ogden, Fred

      Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.)

      Kilbride, Denis

      O'Grady, James

      Snowden, P.

      King, Joseph

      O'Kelly, Edward P. (Wicklow, W.)

      Spicer, Rt. Hon. Sir Albert

      Lambert, Rt. Hon. G. (Devon, S. Molton)

      O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N.)

      Stanley, Albert (Staffs, N.W.)

      Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade)

      O'Malley, William

      Strauss, Edward A. (Southwark, West)

      Lardner, James Carrige Rushe

      O'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, S.)

      Sutherland, John E.

      Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, West)

      O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

      Sutton, John E.

      Lawson, Sir W. (Cumb'rld, Cockerm'th)

      O'Shee, James John

      Taylor, John W. (Durham)

      Leach, Charles

      O'Sullivan, Timothy

      Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)

      Lewis, John Herbert

      Palmer, Godfrey Mark

      Taylor, Thomas (Bolton)

      Low, Sir Frederick (Norwich)

      Parker, James (Halifax)

      Tennant, Harold John

      Lundon, Thomas

      Pearce, William (Limehouse)

      Thomas, J. H.

      Lyell, Charles Henry

      Pease, Rt. Hon. Joseph A. (Rotherham)

      Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton)

      Lynch, Arthur Alfred

      Philipps, Col. Ivor (Southampton)

      Thorne, William (West Ham)

      Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk Burghs)

      Phillips, John (Longford, S.)

      Toulmin, Sir George

      McGhee, Richard

      Pirie, Duncan Vernon

      Ure, Rt. Hon. Alexander

      Macnamara, Rt. Hon. Dr. T. J.

      Pointer, Joseph

      Verney, Sir Harry

      MacNeill, J. G. Swift (Donegal, South)

      Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H.

      Wadsworth, John

      Macpherson, James Ian

      Power, Patrick Joseph

      Walsh, Stephen (Lancs., Ince)

      MacVeagh, Jeremiah

      Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central)

      Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent)

      M'Callum, Sir John M.

      Priestley, Sir Arthur (Grantham)

      Wardle, George J.

      M'Kean, John

      Priestley, Sir W. E. B. (Bradford, E.)

      Waring, Walter

      McKenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald

      Pringle, William M. R.

      Warner, Sir Thomas Courtenay

      M'Laren, Hon. H. D. (Leics.)

      Radford, G. H.

      Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney)

      M'Laren, Hon. F. W. S. (Lincs, Spalding)

      Raffan, Peter Wilson

      Wedgwood, Josiah C.

      M'Micking, Major Gilbert

      Raphael, Sir Herbert H.

      White, J. Dundas (Glasgow, Tradeston)

      Marks, Sir George Croydon

      Rea, Rt. Hon. Russell (South Shields)

      White, Patrick (Meath, North)

      Martin, Joseph

      Rea, Walter Russell (Scarborough)

      Whitehouse, John Howard

      Mason, David M. (Coventry)

      Reddy, Michael

      Whittaker, Rt. Hon. Sir Thomas P.

      Masterman, Rt. Hon. C. F. G.

      Redmond, John E. (Waterford)

      Whyte, A. F.

      Meagher, Michael

      Redmond, William (Clare, E.)

      Wilkie, Alexander

      Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.)

      Redmond, William Archer (Tyrone, E.)

      Williams, J. (Glamorgan)

      Menzies, Sir Walter

      Rendall, Athelstan

      Williams, Llewelyn (Carmarthen)

      Millar, James Duncan

      Richardson, Albion (Peckham)

      Williams, Penry (Middlesbrough)

      Molloy, Michael

      Richardson, Thomas (Whitehaven)

      Wilson, Hon. G. G. (Hull, W.)

      Molteno, Percy Alport

      Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)

      Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)

      Mond, Sir Alfred M.

      Roberts, Sir J. H. (Denbighs)

      Winfrey, Richard

      Money, L. G. Chiozza

      Robertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradford)

      Wood, Rt. Hon. T. McKinnon (Glas.)

      Mooney, John J.

      Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside)

      Young, Samuel (Cavan, East)

      Morgan, George Hay

      Robinson, Sidney

      Young, William (Perth, East)

      Morison, Hector

      Roche, Walter F.

      Yoxall, Sir James Henry

      Morton, Alpheus Cleophas

      Roche, Augustine (Louth)

      Muldoon, John

      Roche, John (Galway, E.)

      TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr.

      Munro-Ferguson, Rt. Hon. R. C.

      Roe, Sir Thomas

      W. Jones and Mr. Webb.

      NOES.

      Aitken, Sir William Max

      Burdett-Coutts, W.

      Craig, Captain James (Down, E.)

      Amery, L. C. M. S.

      Burn, Col. C. R.

      Craig, Norman (Kent, Thanet)

      Archer-Shee, Major W.

      Butcher, John George

      Crichton-Stuart, Lord Ninian

      Ashley, Wilfrid W.

      Campbell, Capt. Duncan F. (Ayr, N.)

      Croft, Henry Page

      Baird, John Lawrence

      Campbell, Rt. Hon. J. (Dublin Univ.)

      Dalziel, D. (Brixton)

      Balcarres, Lord

      Campion, W. R.

      Denniss, E. R. B.

      Baldwin, Stanley

      Carlile, Sir Edward Hildred

      Dickson, Rt. Hon. C. Scott

      Banbury, sir Frederick George

      Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward H.

      Dixon, C. H.

      Barnston, H.

      Cassel, Felix

      Doughty, Sir George

      Barrie, H. T.

      Cave, George

      Duke, Henry Edward

      Bathurst, Charles (Wilton)

      Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

      Eyres-Monsell, Bolton M.

      Beach, Hon. Michael Hugh Hicks

      Cecil, Lord R. (Herts, Hitchin)

      Faber, George Denison (Clapham)

      Benn, Arthur Shirley (Plymouth)

      Chaloner, Col. R. G. W.

      Fell, Arthur

      Bentinck, Lord Henry Cavendish-

      Chambers, James

      Fetherstonhaugh, Godfrey

      Beresford, Lord Charles

      Clay, Captain H. H. Spender

      Finlay, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert

      Bigland, Alfred

      Clive, Captain Percy Archer

      Fisher, Rt. Hon. W. Hayes

      Bird, Alfred

      Clyde, James Avon

      Fleming, Valentine

      Boles, Lieut.-Colonel Dennis Fortescue

      Coates, Major Sir Edward Feetham

      Forster, Henry William

      Boscawen, Sir Arthur S. T. Griffith-

      Cooper, Richard Ashmole

      Foster, Philip Staveley

      Boyle, William (Norfolk, Mid.)

      Courthope, George Loyd

      Gardner, Ernest

      Boyton, James

      Craig, Charles Curtis (Antrim, S.)

      Gastrell, Major W. Houghton

      Bull, Sir William James

      Craig, Ernest (Cheshire, Crewe)

      Gibbs, George Abraham

      1146

      1147

      Goldman, C. S.

      Larmor, Sir J.

      Salter, Arthur Clavell

      Goldsmith, Frank

      Law, Rt. Hon. A. Bonar (Bootle)

      Samuel, Sir Harry (Norwood)

      Gordon, John (Londonderry, South)

      Lawson, Hon. H. (T. H'mts., Mile End)

      Sanders, Robert A.

      Gordon, Hon. John Edward (Brighton)

      Lewisham, Viscount

      Sanderson, Lancelot

      Goulding, Edward Alfred

      Lloyd, G. A.

      Scott, Leslie (Liverpool, Exchange)

      Greene, Walter Raymond

      Locker-Lampson, G. (Salisbury)

      Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

      Gretton, John

      Locker-Lampson, O. (Ramsey)

      Smith, Harold (Warrington)

      Guinness, Hon. Rupert (Essex, S.E.)

      Lockwood, Rt. Hon. Lt.-Col. A. R.

      Spear, Sir John Ward

      Guinness, Hon. W. E. (Bury S. Edmunds)

      Lonsdale, Sir John Brownlee

      Stanler, Beville

      Gwynne, R. S. (Sussex, Eastbourne)

      Lowe, Sir F. W. (Birm, Edgbaston)

      Starkey, John R.

      Hall, D. B. (Isle of Wight)

      Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. A. (S. Geo., Han. S.)

      Steel-Maitland, A. D.

      Hall, Fred (Dulwich)

      Lyttelton, Hon. J. C. (Droitwich)

      Stewart, Gershom

      Hall, Marshall, (E. Toxteth)

      MacCaw, Wm. J. MacGeagh

      Strauss, Edward A. (Southwark, West)

      Hamerstey, Alfred St. George

      Mackinder, Halford J.

      Swift, Rigby

      Hamilton, Lord C. J. (Kensington, S.)

      Macmaster, Donald

      Sykes, Alan John (Ches., Knutsford)

      Hamilton, Marquess of (Londonderry)

      M'Neill, Ronald (Kent, St. Augustine's)

      Sykes, Mark (Hull, Central)

      Hardy, Rt. Hon. Laurence

      Magnus, Sir Philip

      Talbot, Lord Edmund

      Harris, Henry Percy

      Meysey-Thompson, E. C.

      Terrell, George (Wilts, N.W.)

      Harrison-Broadley, H. B.

      Middlemore, John Throgmorton

      Terrell, Henry (Gloucester)

      Henderson, Major H. (Berks, Abingdon)

      Mildmay, Francis Bingham

      Thomson, W. Mitchell- (Down, .)

      Hewins, William Albert Samuel

      Moore, William

      Tobin, Alfred Aspinall

      Hill, Sir Clement L.

      Morrison-Bell, Capt. E. F. (Ashburton)

      Touche, George Alexander

      Hills, J. W.

      Mount, William Arthur

      Tryon, Captain George Clement

      Hill-Wood, Samuel

      Neville, Reginald J. N.

      Valentia, Viscount

      Hoare, Samuel John Gurney

      Newdegate, F. A.

      Walrond, Lionel

      Hohler, Gerald Fitzroy

      Newman, John R. P.

      Ward, A. S. (Herts, Watford)

      Hope, Harry (Bute)

      Newton, Harry Kottingham

      Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid)

      Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield)

      Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield)

      White, Major G. D. (Lancs., Southport)

      Hope, Major J. A. (Midlothian)

      Nield, Herbert

      Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.)

      Horner, Andrew Long

      O'Neill, Hon. A. E. B. (Antrim, Mid)

      Wills, Sir Gilbert

      Houston, Robert Paterson

      Orde-Powlett, Hon. W. G. A.

      Wolmer, Viscount

      Hume-Williams, Wm. Ellis

      Parkes, Ebenezer

      Wood, Hon. E. F. L. (Yorks, Ripon)

      Hunt, Rowland

      Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington)

      Wood, John (Stalybridge)

      Hunter, Sir C. R.

      Peto, Basil Edward

      Worthington-Evans, L.

      Ingleby, Holcombe

      Pole-Carrew, Sir R.

      Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-

      Jardine, Ernest (Somerset, E.)

      Pollock, Ernest Murray

      Wright, Henry Fitzherbert

      Jessell, Captain H. M.

      Pryce-Jones, Colonel E.

      Yate, Col. C. E.

      Kebty-Fletcher, J. R.

      Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel

      Yerburgh, Robert A.

      Kerr-Smiley, Peter Kerr

      Remnant, James Farquharson

      Younger, Sir George

      Kerry, Earl of

      Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall)

      Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement

      Rolleston, Sir John

      TELLERS FOR THE NOES—

      Knight, Captain Eric Ayshford

      Ronaldshay, Earl of

      Viscount Helmsley and Viscount

      Lane-Fox, G. R.

      Rutherford, William (L'pool, W. Derby)

      Castlereagh.

      Question put, "That the Clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill."
      The Committee divided: Ayes, 292; Noes, 189.

      Division No. 337.]

      AYES.

      [9.12 p.m.

      Abraham, William (Dublin, Harbour)

      Buckmaster, Stanley O

      Dillon, John

      Abraham, Rt. Hon. William (Rhondda)

      Burke, E. Haviland

      Donelan, Captain A.

      Acland, Francis Dyke

      Burns, Rt. Hon. John

      Doris, W.

      Adamson, William

      Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas

      Duffy, William J.

      Addison, Dr Christopher

      Buxton, Rt. Hon S. C. (Poplar)

      Duncan, J. Hastings (Yorks, Otley)

      Adkins, Sir W. Ryland D.

      Byles, Sir William Pollard

      Edwards, Clement (Glamorgan, E.)

      Agnew, Sir George William

      Carr-Gomm, H. W.

      Edwards, Sir Francis (Radnor)

      Allen, A. A. (Dumbartonshire)

      Cawley, Sir Frederick (Prestwich)

      Edwards, John Hugh (Glamorgan, Mid)

      Allen, Rt. Hon. Charles P (Stroud)

      Cawley, H. T. (Lancs., Heywood)

      Elverston, Sir Harold

      Arnold, Sydney

      Chancellor, H. G.

      Esmonde, Dr. John (Tipperary, N.)

      Asquith, Rt. Hon. Herbert Henry

      Chapple Dr. W. A

      Esmonde, Sir Thomas (Wexford, N)

      Baker, H. T. (Accrington)

      Clancy, John Joseph

      Essex, Richard Walter

      Baker, Joseph Allen (Finsbury, E)

      Clough, William

      Esslemont, George Birnie

      Balfour, Sir Robert (Lanark)

      Clynes, J. R

      Falconer, J.

      Baring, Sir Godfrey (Barnstaple)

      Collins, G. P. (Greenock)

      Farrell, James Patrick

      Barlow, Sir John Emmot (Somerset)

      Compton-Rickett, Rt. Hon. Sir J.

      Fenwick, Rt. Hon. Charles

      Barnes, George N.

      Condon, Thomas Joseph

      Ffrench, Peter

      Barran, Sir John N. (Hawick B.)

      Cornwall, Sir Edwin A

      Field, William

      Barton, William

      Cotton, William Francis

      Fiennes, Hon. Eustace Edward

      Beauchamp, Sir Edward

      Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth)

      Fitzgibbon, John

      Benn, W. W. (T. Hamlets, St. Geo)

      Crawshay-Williams, Eliot

      Flavin, Michael Joseph

      Bentham, George Jackson

      Crooks, William

      Gill, A. H.

      Bethell, Sir John Henry

      Crumley, Patrick

      Ginnell, L.

      Birrell, Rt. Hon, Augustine

      Cullinan, John

      Gladstone, W. G. C.

      Black, Arthur W.

      Dalziel, Rt. Hon. Sir J. H. (Kirkcaldy)

      Glanville, Harold James

      Boland, John Pius

      Davies, Ellis William (Eiffon)

      Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford

      Booth, Frederick Handel

      Davies, Timothy (Lincs., Louth)

      Greenwood, Granville G. (Peterborough)

      Bowerman, Charles W.

      Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.)

      Greenwood, Hamar (Sunderland)

      Boyle, Daniel (Mayo, North)

      Dawes, J. A.

      Griffith, Ellis J.

      Brace, William

      De Forest, Baron

      Guest, Hon. Frederick E. (Dorset, E.)

      Brady, Patrick Joseph

      Delany, William

      Gulland, John W.

      Brocklehurst, w. B.

      Denman, Hon. R. D.

      Gwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway)

      Bryce, J. Annan

      Devlin, Joseph

      Hackett, J.

      Hall, Frederick (Normanton)

      M'Micking, Major Gilbert

      Roberts, Sir J. H. (Denbighs)

      Hancock, John George

      Marks, Sir George Croydon

      Robertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradford)

      Harcourt, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Rossendale)

      Martin, Joseph

      Robertson, John M. (Tyneside)

      Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose)

      Meagher, Michael

      Robinson, Sidney

      Harmsworth, R. L. (Caithness-shire)

      Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.)

      Roch, Walter F.

      Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale)

      Menzies, Sir Walter

      Roche, Augustine (Louth)

      Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, West)

      Millar, James Duncan

      Roche, John (Galway, E.)

      Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N. E.)

      Molloy, M.

      Roe, Sir Thomas

      Haslam, James (Derbyshire)

      Molteno, Percy Alport

      Rowlands, James

      Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth)

      Mond, Sir Alfred Moritz

      Rowntree, Arnold

      Havelock-Allan, Sir Henry

      Money, L. G. Chiozza

      Russell, Rt. Hon. Thomas W.

      Hayden, John Patrick

      Mooney, John J.

      Samuel, Rt. Hon. H, L. (Cleveland)

      Hayward, Evan

      Morgan, George Hay

      Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees)

      Hazleton, Richard

      Morison, Hector

      Scanlan, Thomas

      Helme, Sir Norval Watson

      Morton, Alpheus Cleophas

      Scott, A. MacCallum (Glas., Bridgeton)

      Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

      Muldoon, John

      Sheehy, David

      Henderson, J. M. (Aberdeen, W.)

      Murray, Captain Ton. A. C.

      Sherwell, Arthur James

      Henry, Sir Charles

      Nannetti, Joseph P.

      Shortt, Edward

      Higham, John Sharp

      Needham, Christopher

      Simon, Sir John Allsebrook

      Hinds, John

      Nicholson, Sir Charles N. (Doncaster)

      Smith, Albert (Lancs., Clitherse)

      Hobhouse, Rt. Hon. Charles E. H.

      Nolan, Joseph

      Smith, H. B. (Northampton)

      Hodge, John

      Norton, Captain Cecil W.

      Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.)

      Hogge, James Myles

      Nugent, Sir Walter Richard

      Snowden, P.

      Holmes, Daniel Turner

      Nuttall, Harry

      Spicer, Rt. Hon. Sir Albert

      Horne, C. Silvester (Ipswich)

      O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

      Stanley, Albert (Staffs, N.W.)

      Howard, Hon. Geoffrey

      O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)

      Strauss, Edward A. (Southward, West)

      Hudson, Walter

      O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)

      Sutherland, John E.

      Hughes, S. L.

      O'Doherty, Philip

      Sutton, John E.

      Illingworth, Percy H.

      O'Donnell, Thomas

      Taylor, John W. (Durham)

      Isaacs, Rt. Hon. Sir Rugus

      O'Dowd, John

      Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)

      Jardine, Sir J. (Roxburgh)

      Ogden, Fred

      Taylor, Thomas (Bolton)

      John, Edward Thomas

      O'Grady, James

      Tennant, Harold John

      Jones, Rt. Hon. Sir D. Brynmor (Swansea)

      O'Kelly, Edward P. (Wicklow, W.)

      Thomas, James Henry

      Jones, Edgar (Merthyr Tydvil)

      O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N.)

      Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton)

      Jones, H. Haydn (Merioneth)

      O'Malley, William

      Thorne, William (West Ham)

      Jones, J. Towyn (Carmarthen, East)

      O'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, S.)

      Toulmin, Sir George

      Jones, Leif Stratten (Notts, Rushcliffe)

      O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

      Ure, Rt. Hon. Alexander

      Jones, W. S. Glyn. (T.H'mts, Stepney)

      O'Shee, James John

      Verney, Sir Harry

      Joyce, Michael

      O'Sullivan, Timothy

      Wadsworth, John

      Keating, M.

      Palmer, Godfrey Mark

      Walsh, Stephen (Lancs., Ince)

      Kellaway, Frederick George

      Parker, James (Halifax)

      Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent)

      Kennedy, Vincent Paul

      Pearce, William (Limehouse)

      Wardle, G. J.

      Kilbride, Dennis

      Pease, Rt. Hon. Joseph A. (Rotherham)

      Waring, Walter

      King, J.

      Philippe, Col. Ivor (Southampton)

      Warner, Sir Thomas Courtenay

      Lambert, Rt. Hon. G. (Devon, S. Molton)

      Phillips, John (Longford, S.)

      Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney)

      Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade)

      Pointer, Joseph

      Wedgwood, Josiah C.

      Lardner, James Carrige Rushe

      Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H.

      White, J. Dundas (Glasgow, Tradeston)

      Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, West)

      Power, Patrick Joseph

      White, Patrick (Meath, North)

      Lawson, Sir W. (Cumb'rld, Cockerm'th)

      Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central)

      Whitehouse, John Howard

      Leach, Charles

      Price, Sir Robert J. (Norfolk, E.)

      Whittaker, Rt. Hon. Sir Thomas P.

      Lewis, John Herbert

      Priestley, Sir Arthur (Grantham)

      Wilkie, Alexander

      Low, Sir Frederick (Norwich)

      Priestley, Sir W. E. B. (Bradford, E.)

      Williams, J. (Glamorgan)

      Lundon, T.

      Pringle, William M. R.

      Williams, Llewelyn (Carmarthen)

      Lyell, Charles Henry

      Radford, G. H.

      Williams, P. (Middlesbrough)

      Lynch, A. A.

      Raffan, Peter Wilson

      Wilson, Hon. G. G. (Hull, W.)

      Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk Burghs)

      Raphael, Sir Herbert H.

      Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)

      McGhee, Richard

      Rea, Rt. Hon. Russell (South Shields)

      Winfrey, Richard

      Macnamara, Rt. Hon. Dr. T. J.

      Rea, Walter Russell (Sarborough)

      Wood, Rt. Hon. T. McKinnon (Glas.)

      MacNeill, J. G. Swift (Donegal, South)

      Reddy, M.

      Young, Samuel (Cavan, E.)

      Macpherson, James Ian

      Redmond, John E. (Waterford)

      Young, William (Perth, East)

      MacVeagh, Jeremiah

      Redmond, William (Clare, E.)

      Yoxall, Sir James Henry

      M'Callum, Sir John M.

      Redmond, William Archer (Tyrone, E.)

      M'Kean, John

      Rendall, Athelstan

      McKenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald

      Richardson, Albion (Peckham)

      TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr.

      M'Laren, Hon, H. D. (Leics.)

      Richardson, Thomas (Whitehaven)

      W. Jones and Mr. Webb.

      M'Laren, Hon. F. W. S. (Lincs., Spalding)

      Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)

      NOES.

      Aitken, Sir William Max

      Beresford, Lord Charles

      Cassel, Felix

      Amery, L. C. M. S.

      Bigland, Alfred

      Castlereagh, Viscount

      Ashley, Wilfrid W.

      Boscawen, Sir Arthur S. T. Griffith-

      Cave, George

      Baird, John Lawrence

      Boyle, William (Norfolk, Mid)

      Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

      Balcarres, Lord

      Boyton, James

      Cecil, Lord R. (Herts, Hitchin)

      Baldwin, Stanley

      Bull, Sir William James

      Chaloner, Col. R. G. W.

      Banbury, Sir Frederick George

      Burdett-Coutts, W.

      Chambers, J.

      Barnston, Harry

      Burn, Col. C. R.

      Clay, Captain H. H. Spender

      Barrie, H. T.

      Butcher, J. G.

      Clive, Captain Percy Archer

      Bathurst, Charles (Wilts Wilton)

      Campbell, Capt. Duncan F. (Ayr, N.)

      Clyde, James Avon

      Beach, Hon. Michael Hugh Hicks

      Campbell, Rt. Hon. J. (Dublin Univ.)

      Coates, Major Sir Edward Feetham

      Beckett, Hon. Gervase

      Campion, W. R.

      Cooper, Richard Ashmole

      Benn, Arthur Shirley (Plymouth)

      Carlile, Sir Edward Hildred

      Courthope, George Loyd

      Bentinck, Lord Henry Cavendish-

      Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward H.

      Craig, Charles Curtis (Antrim, S.)

      1150

      1151

      Craig, Captain James (Down, E.)

      Hume-Williams, William Ellis

      Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel

      Craig, Norman (Kent, Thanet)

      Hunt, Rowland

      Remnant, James Farquharson

      Crichton-Stuart, Lord Ninian

      Hunter, Sir C. R.

      Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall)

      Croft, Henry Page

      Ingleby, Holcombe

      Rolleston, Sir John

      Dalziel, Davison (Brixton)

      Jardine, E. (Somerset, E.)

      Ronaldshay, Earl of

      Denniss, E. R. B.

      Jessel, Captain Herbert M.

      Rutherford, John (Lancs., Darwen)

      Dickson, Rt. Hon. C. Scott

      Kebty-Fletcher, J. R.

      Rutherford, W. (Liverpool, W. Derby)

      Dixon, C. H.

      Kerr-Smiley, Peter Kerr

      Salter, Arthur Clavell

      Duke, Henry Edward

      Kerry, Earl of

      Samuel, Sir Harry (Norwood)

      Eyres-Monsell, Bolton M.

      Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement

      Sanders, Robert A.

      Faber, George Denison (Clapham)

      Knight, Captain E. A.

      Sanderson, Lancelot

      Fell, Arthur

      Lane-Fox, G. R.

      Scott, Leslie (Liverpool, Exchange)

      Finlay, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert

      Larmor, Sir J.

      Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

      Fisher, Rt. Hon. W. Hayes

      Law, Rt. Hon. A. Bonar (Bootle)

      Smith, Harold (Warrington)

      Forster, Henry William

      Lawson, Hon. H. (T. H'mts, Mills End)

      Spear, Sir John Ward

      Foster, Philip Staveley

      Lewisham, Viscount

      Stanier, Seville

      Gardner, Ernest

      Lloyd, George Ambrose

      Stanley, Hon. G. F. (Preston)

      Gastrell, Major W. H.

      Locker-Lampson, G. (Salisbury)

      Starkey, John Ralph

      Gibbs, George Abraham

      Locker-Lampson, O. (Ramsey)

      Steel-Maitland, A. D.

      Goldman, C. S.

      Lockwood, Rt. Hon. Lieut.-Colonel A. R.

      Stewart, Gershom

      Goldsmith, Frank

      Lonsdale, Sir John Brownlee

      Strauss, Edward A. (Southwark, West)

      Gordon, John (Londonderry, South)

      Lowe, Sir F. W. (Birm., Edgbaston)

      Swift, Rigby

      Gordon, Hon. John Edward (Brighton)

      Lyttelton, Hon. J. C. (Droitwich)

      Sykes, Alan John (Ches., Knutsford)

      Goulding, Edward Alfred

      MacCaw, Wm. J. MacGeagh

      Sykes, Mark (Hull, Central)

      Greene, Walter Raymond

      Mackinder, Halford J.

      Talbot, Lord Edmund

      Gretton, John

      Macmaster, Donald

      Terrell, G. (Wilts, N.W.)

      Guinness, Hon. Rupert (Essex, S.E.)

      M'Neill, Ronald (Kent, St. Augustine's)

      Terrell, Henry (Gloucester)

      Guinness, Hon. W. E. (Bury S. Edmunds)

      Magnus, Sir Philip

      Thomson, W. Mitchell- (Down, N.)

      Gwynne, R. S. (Sussex, Eastbourne)

      Meysey-Thompson, E. C.

      Tobin, Alfred Aspinall

      Hall, D. B. (Isle of Wight)

      Middlemore, John Throgmorton

      Touche, George Alexander

      Hall, Fred (Dulwich)

      Mildmay, Francis Bingham

      Tryon, Captain George Clement

      Hall, Marshall (E. Toxteth)

      Moore, William

      Valentia, Viscount

      Hamersley, Alfred St. George

      Morrison-Bell, Capt. E. F. (Ashburton)

      Walrond, Hon. Lionel

      Hamilton, Lord C. J. (Kensington, S.)

      Mount, William Arthur

      Ward, A. S. (Herts, Watford)

      Hamilton, Marquess of (Londonderry)

      Munro-Ferguson, Rt. Hon. R. C.

      Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid)

      Hardy, Rt. Hon. Laurence

      Neville, Reginald J. N.

      White, Major G. D. (Lancs., Southport)

      Harris, Henry Percy

      Newdegate, F. A.

      Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.)

      Harrison-Broadley, H. B.

      Newman, John R. P.

      Wolmer, Viscount

      Helmsley, Viscount

      Newton, Harry Kottingham

      Wood, Hon. E. F. L. (Yorks, Ripon)

      Henderson, Major H. (Berks, Abingdon)

      Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield)

      Wood, John (Stalybridge)

      Hewins, William Albert Samuel

      Nield, Herbert

      Worthington-Evans, L.

      Hill, Sir Clement L.

      O'Neill, Hon. A. E. B. (Antrim, Mid)

      Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-

      Hills, J. W.

      Orde-Powlett, Hon. W. G. A.

      Wright, Henry Fitzherbert

      Hill-Wood, Samuel

      Parker, Sir Gilbert (Gravesend)

      Yate, Col. C. E.

      Hoare, S. J. G.

      Parkes, Ebenezer

      Yerburgh, Robert A.

      Hohler, G. F.

      Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington)

      Younger, Sir George

      Hope, Harry (Bute)

      Peto, Basil Edward

      Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield)

      Pirie, Duncan V.

      Hope, Major J. A. (Midlothian)

      Pole-Carew, Sir R

      TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr.

      Horner, Andrew Long

      Pollock, Ernest Murray

      Bird and Mr. Fetherstonhaugh.

      Houston, Robert Paterson

      Pryce-Jones, Col. E.

      Sir PHILIP MAGNUS: May I say that I voted in the "No" Lobby. My name is down in the Division list, and the Division list does not agree with the numbers now declared.
      The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN: Do both tellers agree to the statement of the hon. Member?
      Mr. WILLIAM JONES: I am perfectly agreeable.
      The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN: Noes to the left, 190; the Ayes have it.

      CLAUSE 17.—(Supplemental Provisions as to Transferred Sum and Irish Revenue.)
      (1) The Transferred Sum shall be paid to the Irish Exchequer at such times and in such manner and according to such regulations as the Joint Exchequer Board may direct.
      (2) In the event of the reduction or discontinuance of any Imperial tax by the Irish Parliament, the Transferred Sum shall be reduced in each financial year by such sum as may be determined by the Joint Exchequer Board to represent the amount by which the proceeds of the tax are diminished in that year in consequence of the reduction or discontinuance.
      (3) In in any financial year the proceeds of any Irish tax imposed as an addition to any Customs Duty levied as an Imperial tax (other than a Customs Duty on beer or spirits), or to any duty of Income Tax so levied, or to any Death Duty so levied, exceed one-tenth of the proceeds in Ireland of that duty as levied as an Imperial tax for the same period, the amount of the excess shall not be treated for the purposes of this Act as part of the proceeds of the Irish tax, and the amount payable to the Irish Exchequer in respect of the

      1153
      proceeds of the Irish tax shall be reduced accordingly:
      Provided that—

      (a) For the purposes of this provision, the proceeds of any tax shall be deemed to be the proceeds as determined by the Joint Exchequer Board: and

      (b) The foregoing provision shall not apply in cases where the excess is solely due to the reduction of the rate of the Imperial tax.

      (4) When any reserved service is transferred from the Government of the United Kingdom to the Government of Ireland, the Transferred Sum shall be increased by such sum as may be determined by the Joint Exchequer Board to represent the equivalent of any saving to the Exchequer of the United Kingdom by reason of the transfer, and in determining that equivalent regard shall be had to the prospect of any increase or decrease in the cost of that service which may be expected to arise from causes not being matters of administration.
      The sum by which the Transferred Sum is to be increased in pursuance of this provision may be fixed by the Joint Exchequer Board so as to vary during the first ten years after the transfer, but subject thereto shall be a definite sum.
      Captain CRAIG: On a point of Order. Can you tell us, Sir, exactly how many Clauses have to be passed under the guillotine in the next hour and a half? [An HON. MEMBEK: "An hour and eight minutes."]
      The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN: I do not think that is a point of Order; at any rate, it does not now arise.
      Captain CRAIG: Is it not necessary that we should know how we can allocate this hour in order to get the best possible results?
      The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN: That is not a point of Order. Under the Order of the House a time-table is set up and must be carried through.
      Mr. JAMES HOPE: May I ask whether it is within your cognisance at the time the guillotine falls what the Question to be put will be?
      The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN: If a point of Order arises at 10.30 it will be dealt with by whoever is in the Chair. If it arises when I am here I am quite prepared to deal with it at that time.
      Mr. GOLDSMITH: I beg to move, in Sub-section (l), at the beginning, to insert the words, "After deducting from the Transferred Sum any charges which, pursuant to this Act, are to be, or may be, made on the Transferred Sum, the balance of."
      In moving this Amendment, I desire to protest against the absurdly short time which is left to us to discuss five Clauses of the Bill. The guillotine falls at 10.30, and we have got just over an hour to discuss all five Clauses, which are of the greatest importance, and which I think the Committee—[HON. MEMBERS: "Hurry up."]
      Sir E. CARSON: Hurry up yourselves.
      Captain CRAIG: We have only a few minutes, and you keep shouting like a lot of jackals. If you want trouble, ask for it.
      Mr. GOLDSMITH: We have a very short time in which to discuss these Clauses, and I hope lion. Members opposite will give us an opportunity in the very short time that remains to us to debate them. I am absolutely certain that nearly the whole of these five Clauses will be passed without discussion and without a word having been said either in favour of or against the proposals which they contain. I maintain that it is really reducing the proceedings to farce and absurdity to ask us to discuss the whole of these Clauses and five and a half pages of Amendments in the time allotted to us this evening. The object of the Amendment which I am moving is to make it absolutely clear that certain deductions have to be made from the Transferred Sum before that sum is transferred to the Irish Exchequer. If my Amendment is accepted, the amended Clause will not add a single penny to the deductions which will be made by the Imperial Exchequer, nor will it take a single penny from the sum which the Irish Exchequer will receive. We are only making absolutely clear that the Transferred Sum is not exactly the same as the actual cash payment which the Irish Exchequer is going to receive. It will show that certain deductions have to be made and that the payments which have to be made under the provisions of the Bill will form the first charge upon the Transferred Sum and the first charge upon the sum which would stand to the credit of the Irish Exchequer, and until those deductions have been made nothing

      1155
      could be paid to the Irish Exchequer. The Irish Exchequer with regard to this sum is nearly in the same position as a deposit contributor under the National Insurance Act. A deposit contributor under that Act has certain sums standing to his credit at the Post Office consisting of his own and his employer's contributions, and the contributions of the State, but he cannot draw the whole of the amount which stands to his credit as certain deductions have to be made and certain charges have to be met, for instance, for medical benefit, sanatorium benefit, and management expenses. I say that the Irish Exchequer is really in exactly the same position. They cannot draw the whole of the cash amount which stands to their credit until certain charges have been met. There is one very important difference in their case, and that is that the Irish Government can draw £2,000,000 more benefit than the Irish people have actually paid for. That is different from the case of the deposit contributor.
      The Transferred Sum consists in the first place of the Irish services, that is to say, the cost of the Irish services or the actual amount which has been saved to the Imperial Exchequer by the transfer of those services. In the second place it consists of the subsidy of £500,000 which eventually will be reduced to £200,000, and further consists of any reserve services which subsequently may be transferred to the Irish Parliament. I believe it is the intention of the Government that those deductions should be made first, and that the sum should then be paid ever to the Irish Exchequer. That is by no means clear in the Bill, and I understand that the opinion prevails very largely that this sum is going to be paid over to the Irish Exchequer, and then subsequently the Imperial Government can send in its claim to the Irish Government for the cost of the services which are to be paid by the Irish Government to the Imperial Government. If my Amendment is accepted it will be perfectly clear that those deductions will have to be made first. I should like to point out that a very large number of prior charges have to be made under the Bill. For instance, under Clause 18 all charges under the Land Purchase Acts which now fall on the guarantee fund will come out of this Transferred Sum. Under Clause 20 all existing charges on the Irish Church Temporalities Fund shall be made good by means of deductions from the
      1156
      Transferred Sum. Under Clause 31, £5,000 will have to be contributed out of this fund towards the salary of the Lord Lieutenant. Under Clause 32 it is provided that the pension and salary of the existing judges and Civil servants, and the superannuation and other allowances of unestablished Civil servants shall be paid out of this Transferred Sum. Clause 23 provides that if a loan is raised by the Irish Parliament on the Transferred Sum, a sum shall be deducted representing the cost of management sinking fund and interest.
      The Committee ought to remember that after six years, when the Irish Constabulary is transferred to the Irish Government, an increased deduction will have to be made for the pension of the Constabulary. I think we were told the other day that that deduction will amount to no less than £400,000. Another deduction is not only possible, but probable. When the Irish Parliament reduces or discontinues a tax, the loss which that reduction or discontinuance involves will also be deducted from the Transferred Sum. At the present moment we have not got really any knowledge and we have not been told to what amount that Transferred Sum will really come. I maintain we ought to know not only what the deductions are going to be, but the actual amount of the cash balance which is going to be handed over to the Irish Exchequer. At present this Transferred Sum is to amount to £6,100,000. The Prime Minister told us the other day that a certain number of these deductions amounted to £300,000. That is to say, £5,800,000 is going to be handed over to the Irish Exchequer. In six years you are going to add £400,000 to that. Therefore the amount of the deduction which we know of in six years time will amount to £700,000, so that instead of handing over £7,300,000, which would be the sum at that time, the amount which you are actually going to hand over of cash, totals only £6,600,000. I have only up to the present been dealing with deductions which we know of, that is to say those which the Prime Minister mentioned in answer to questions the other day. There are certain other deductions which will be made, and which we cannot possibly estimate at the present moment. Deductions will have to be made when a tax is reduced by the Irish Parliament, and deductions will have to be made when land annuities are not paid, and deduc-

      1157
      tions will have to be made when a loan is raised by the Irish Parliament. We have no information, and we cannot tell at the present moment what will be the actual sum handed over to the Irish Parliament. It is necessary that we should make it perfectly clear in the Bill that these deductions have to be made before the Transferred Sum is handed over to the Irish Parliament. It is all the more necessary because in the Bill of 1893 the whole of the charges which were to be made on the Irish Consolidated Fund were collected into one Clause. Clause 14 of the Bill of 1893 said:—
      "There shall be charged on the Irish Consolidated Fund in favour of the Exchequer of the United Kingdom as a first charge on that fund all such sums which—"
      and then comes a list of the sums which have to be charged on the Irish Consolidated Fund. By this proposal we should obtain practically the same result. I hope the Government will accept the Amendment, because, after all, it only expresses what they have often told us is their intention.
      Mr. HERBERT SAMUEL: The hon. Member, by his speech, has made perfectly apparent to the Committee the object he has in view. He stated at the outset of his remarks that the Amendment, if inserted, would, as a matter of fact, make no difference at all to the finances, neither adding anything to nor deducting anything from the sum payable to the Irish Parliament; and that, in fact, it was nothing more than a drafting Amendment. In our opinion it is not an improvement on the present drafting, for reasons which I shall give. In the first instance, I must quarrel with the hon. Member on one point. He made a comparison between our proposals with regard to deductions from the Transferred Sum and the position of a deposit contributor under the Insurance Act. He said that there was this difference, that while the deposit contributor gets the sums he has paid in, the Irish Government will receive in the Transferred Sum £2,000,000 benefit more than they have paid for. That is not so, if he takes into account all the expenditure upon Irish purposes. In the Transferred Sum and in the reserved services it is true there is a margin of £2,000,000 which Irish taxes do not pay for. But if he is dealing with the Transferred Sum, and that is the purpose of his Amendment, the case is just the opposite. Irishmen will
      1158
      be paying £3,000,000 more than they will get back in the Transferred Sum, because Irish taxes amount to over £9,000,000 and the Transferred Sum to only £6,000,000, every penny of which will consist of Irish money. There is nothing in the Transferred Sum from the British taxpayer's pocket at all.
      It is a point of importance, because we are often told that the Irish Parliament will have at their disposal a great deal of British money over which we have no control. I am pointing out, as I pointed out on the First Heading of the Bill, that as far as the Transferred Sum is concerned it might more correctly be termed a re-transferred sum, and we might have adopted machinery for the payment of it direct into the Irish Exchequer instead of its coming to our Exchequer first and then being repaid to Dublin. The hon. Member says that our intention that certain sums should be deducted from the Transferred Sum before it is paid over is not made clear in the Bill. But he himself read several Clauses dealing with this point, and pointed out that Clause by Clause the Bill does distinctly in terms provide that certain sums shall be deducted from the Transferred Sum. For instance, Clause 17 (2) says that if the Irish Parliament reduces taxation the Transferred Sum shall be reduced in each year by such sum as may be determined to represent the amount of the loss through that reduction of taxation. Clause 18 states that if there is a failure in the payment of land purchase annuities such arrears which would under the Land Purchase Acts have been made good out of the Guarantee Fund shall be made good by means of deductions from the Transferred Sum under this Act. Clause 20 provides that the deficit on the Irish Church Temporalities Fund shall be made good by means of deductions from the Transferred Sum. And so in each Clause through the Bill it is made clear beyond all possibility of mistake under what heads sums are to be deducted from the Transferred Sum. The hon. Member said that we ought to have followed the Bill of 1893 and collected all these matters into one Clause. The Bill of 1893 proceeded on different principles. There the taxes were paid into an Irish fund and special provision had to be made in a special Clause, for, so to speak, taking away from the control of Irish Departments certain sums which were to be deducted from them. We proceed on a different principle, and the

      1159
      same necessity does not arise. Even if the Amendment were accepted, it would not have the effect which the hon. Member desires, because it would merely be stated in this one Clause that the Transferred Sum was to be paid over, subject to certain deductions, but it would not bring together into one Clause, as the hon. Member desires the various deductions which would have to be made.
      Perhaps this is a convenient opportunity for stating very briefly how the position stands with regard to these deductions. The Prime Minister, a few days ago, gave an answer to an hon. Member opposite in which he stated, so far as can now be ascertained, what these deductions would be under the Bill as it stands. There are certain Amendments in the name of my right hon. Friend the Chief Secretary which will increase by about £100,000 certain charges for the benefit of Irish Civil servants who may retire under the Bill. They will make the sum £380,000 instead of £280,000. But that amount is problematical, because we do not really know how many Civil servants will retire. That, however, is the Treasury Estimate. I ought to point out that this does not mean that the surplus in the hands of the Irish Government will be reduced by £280,000 or £380,000. Not at all; because these deductions come off both sides of the account. Let me give an instance. Take, for example, the pension of an Irish judge—which is charged on the Consolidated Fund, and will be secured on the Transferred Sum paid by the Treasury here and deducted from the Transferred Sum. It is true that the Transferred Sum will be reduced by £2,000, or whatever it may be; but, on the other side of the account, the judge's pension is part of the existing cost of Irish government, or its equivalent. Such pensions are now part of the cost within the meaning of the Bill of Irish services transferred to the Irish Government. Therefore, although the Transferred sum will be reduced by this amount, and the Irish Parliament will have less money by £2,000 or £3,000, on the other side the expenses that they would be called upon to bear in respect of Irish services will be reduced by an equivalent sum. The surplus of £500,000 at the outset, reducible after a certain number of years to £200,000, is a net surplus. There may be some small reductions, but these considerable sums are not reductions from the surplus in the hands of the Irish Government.
      1160
      Similarly the hon. Gentleman who moved this Amendment said that when the constabulary are transferred to the Irish Government, there will be an additional sum of about £400,000 to be deducted from the Transferred Sum in respect of the Irish Constabulary pensions. That is true. On the other hand, there would be that amount of £1,400,000, if the constabuary costs the same as now, to be added to the Transferred Sum in respect of the cost of the constabulary generally. As the Committee knows, when the service goes over to the Irish Government the money to pay for that service, which now has to be paid out of the Exchequer, will be added to the Transferred Sum, which will make that difference to the Imperial Treasury. What money is being paid out in respect to the constabulary will be handed over to the Irish Government when they take over the constabulary. If the cost of the constabulary is, say, £1,000,000 general expenses, and £400,000 for existing pensions, the Irish Government at the outset will receive £400,000, in a way saved on the pensions. They would receive it in the Transferred Sum to be added to the existing £1,400,000, and per contra the existing pensions, amounting to £400,000, will be deducted from the Transferred Sum, and so the Irish Exchequer would have in hand £1,000,000 to pay the wages, while the Imperial Exchequer would be debited, for the time being, with £400,000 to pay the pension list. I hope that that is clear. As the pensioners die off and new pensioners come on, so the deduction from the Transferred Sum will be less and the Transferred Sum proportionately increased.
      The hon. Member asked how much the deductions would be. The Treasury have made a very careful inquiry as to the sums, and we have given the Committee all the information in our possession. As the hon. Member has said himself, there are certain duties in respect of which we have not given figures. It is not possible for any figures to be given by anyone, because there are deductions which will depend upon the future actions of the Irish Government. The Transferred Sum is to be reduced if the Irish Parliament repeals taxes. If they reduce one of the duties, and there is £100,000 loss to the Exchequer, the Transferred Sum will be reduced b5' £100,000. It will be obvious to the hon. Member that we cannot give any estimate now of what that sum may be. It must necessarily depend upon whether or not the Irish Parliament reduce taxes, and to

      1161
      what extent they will in the future reduce taxes. If they do not reduce taxes there would be no reduction in that. Similarly in regard to charges for loans. If the Irish Government raise a loan, and the interest on the Sinking Fund are secured on the Transferred Sum pro tanto, the Transferred Sum will be reduced—we cannot say how much, because we do not know whether the Irish Parliament will raise any loans, and to what extent. Further, in regard to any default in the payment of land purchased annuities. At present the default is extremely little. Last year the figure was £4,700, which is a remarkably creditable figure to the Irish purchasers under the Land Purchase Act, in which such large purchase sums are involved.
      There is every reason to hope that the honesty which has distinguished the Irish peasantry for so long will not disappear under Home Rule, and that the deductions will not be considerable under this head. It is impossible for anyone to estimate what the deductions may be. I would point out under the head of Irish land purchase that the British taxpayer now has much better security than ever before against loss owing to the failure of the Irish peasantry to repay the sums due from them, because while now you are only allowed to make deductions on certain heads of revenue, which it would be difficult to make deductions from in the future, we have a lien upon the whole Irish Transferred Sum amounting to over £6,000,000 per year. Therefore it is obvious that the security of the British taxpayer from that point of view is very greatly increased. The Amendment of the hon. Member has given me the opportunity of making this statement. In itself it is only part of the Amendment, but, in the opinion of the draftsman, and in our opinion, the Amendment is not a good one. It merely has the effect of stating twice over what is already stated in the Bill. I hope the Committee therefore will not accept it.
      Mr. MITCHELL-THOMSON: The speech of the right hon. Gentleman has made it quite evident to the Committee how grossly inadequate is the time at our disposal. The right hon. Gentleman has stated that this is only a drafting Amendment, but the time he has occupied in disposing of it is a very good index as to the character of the Amendments which we are prepared to suggest to this Clause of the Bill. Although it is quite true that in
      1162
      form it is merely a drafting Amendment, it raises a real point of substance, and one which I want to be present to the minds of the Committee. I will put it as shortly as I can. In this Bill there is a certain sum of money which is to be transferred to the Irish Parliament. It is the cost of running the transferred services in Ireland. In the Govenment's White Paper it is estimated that there will be a surplus for the Irish Parliament, so to speak, over the cost of these transferred services of, roughly speaking, half a million. The Transferred Sum is set out in the Government's White Paper at £6,127,000—to be strictly accurate. I want the Committee to realise that this is purely a book figure. It has no existence in fact, and never will have. The Transferred Sum is something quite different from the transferred cash. The transferred cash which is going to be handed over to the Irish Parliament is a very much less figure, a quite different figure from the £6,127,000. As a matter of fact, we now learn from the right hon. Gentleman that the sum of £380,000 is to be deducted from that Transferred Sum as it stands in the first year—and remember that is the highest figure! That is with the inclusion of £500,000; not a diminished amount. The £380,000 is to be deducted from that Transferred Sum in respect of those prior charges. That brings is to £5,747,000, which is the amount of the transferred cash.
      What has the Irish Government got to put against that? Against that the Irish Government has got to spend £5,462,000 on the transferred services, and £246,000 to make up the loss on the Post Office. This is a total of £5,708,000 for Irish services. If you set that figure of £5,708,000 against the figure of £5,747,000, which is the amount of the transferred cash, as distinguished from the Transferred Sum, you get the surplus that the Irish Government will realise in the first financial year, as not the £500,000 set out m the Government's White Paper, but £39,000. It is true that the right hon. Gentleman said, "Oh, against that you have set savings which are effected in the cost of the Irish services." Yes, but that does not amount either to the whole or anything like the whole of these deductions, and the right hon. Gentleman knows that very well. In the matter of the deductions he took a single instance and compared the salary-or rather the pension, of an Irish judge. But there are several items in this sum which the right hon. Gentleman himself

      1163
      confessed in his closing sentences as not only having not been estimated by the Government, but he said they could not be estimated by the Government.
      Mr. HERBERT SAMUEL: All those sums, amounting to £380,000, which the hon. Gentleman has deducted from one side, also go to the other side.
      Mr. MITCHELL-THOMSON: As to that I join issue with the right hon. Gentleman. I do not think that that is so. I understood that the £380,000 includes superannuation and other allowances for the existing Irish unestablished Civil servants. He told us that that is being increased by £100,000. The right hon. Gentleman himself said that is an increase over the sum stated in the original figures which are given in the Government White Paper.
      Mr. HERBERT SAMUEL: There will be an increase on the other side of the account.
      Mr. MITCHELL-THOMSON: Then I think it is quite time that the Government issued an amended White Paper. It is quite time we had a clear statement as to how this amount is going to be spent because the right hon. Gentleman tells the Committee, at a time when there is no possibility of discussing it, that the Government have resolved to put down Amendments which will have the effect of increasing this deduction by £100,000, and he told us to take it from him ex cathedra that there is to be a corresponding reduction. I want to see the figures. The right hon. Gentleman has, of course, acknowledged that there are considerable reductions from the sums which have been estimated; and again, under Clause 17, Sub-section (2), there is possible deduction on account of the reduction of taxation by the Irish Parliament. There is deduction under Clause 18 in respect of land purchase, under Clause 23 in respect of loans, and under Clauses 35 and 37 in respect of the Irish Constabulary. All these are deductions which cannot be estimated at the present moment, because we have not got the figures, and I suggest that apart from the disgraceful injustice of asking us to discuss this matter in the circumstances under which we are labouring now, the Government ought to produce their figures at the earliest possible moment and in the clearest possible manner.
      10.0 P.M.
      Mr. CHARLES CRAIG: Of the few minutes remaining to us I desire only to monopolise two or three, to remind the Committee that the part of Ireland from which I come has not the slightest intention of accepting this Clause, either with or without this Amendment proposed by my hon. Friend behind me. [At this point cheers were raised by hon. Members as the result of the Bow and Bromley By-election became known.] I thought at first that the cheers which came from my hon. Friends behind me had reference to something I was saying, but I understand now they were due to something which has happened pleasing to those on this side of the House, but that has really very little bearing on the Amendment and still less on the Bill before the House. I only rose to say, with reference to this Amendment and to the whole Bill, what has often been said before by my colleagues and myself, that we in Ulster in no circumstances intend ever to take this Bill, but the disgraceful circumstances by which five Clauses are proposed to be pushed through the House in four or five minutes under an hour intensifies that determination a hundredfold to resist this Bill. I say the Government is behaving in a most disgraceful way. They promised us three hours for the discussion of five Clauses, but we get, as a matter of fact, less than one hour, and out of that the right hon. Gentleman the Postmaster-General has occupied sixteen or seventeen minutes. There are five Clauses for discussion and five or six pages of Amendments. I say if ever the Unionist party in this country were justified in its determined opposition to this Bill, and if ever we in Ulster were justified to have nothing to do with this Bill, and never to allow this Bill to take root in Ulster, we are justified a hundredfold by what has happened to-night.
      Mr. CASSEL: It has been contended that this is a drafting Amendment. I agree that it is, but a question of drafting may be extremely important, and may involve the question whether something is to be a first or second charge, and as many millions are involved in this matter I think we are at least entitled to the presence of one of the Law Officers of the Crown. If the right hon. Gentleman opposite will look at the Amendment he will see that he has not dealt with the point made by my right hon. Friend. The point made by my right hon. Friend was that

      1165
      under the Bill as drafted it is not clear—I think it is rather clear the other way—that the deductions have to be made before the sum is paid to the Irish Exchequer. The deductions under the Bill as drafted are only to be made after the sum is paid to the Irish Exchequer. You have to look, in the first place, to the definitions of the Transferred Sum under Clause 14. Clause 14 defines the sum as including three items mentioned in that Clause. Then you come to Clause 17, which says that "the Transferred Sum as so defined shall be paid over to the Irish Exchequer." It is quite true that Subsection (2) contains the provision about reducing the Transferred Sum. I quite agree that that reduction would have to be made before the Transferred Sum is paid over to the Irish Exchequer. That is quite true. Supposing it were £6,100,000, and the reduction to be made was £100,000, the sum to be paid to the Irish Exchequer is then £6,000,000, but we have an entirely different thing when we come to the deductions. When you come to the Clauses dealing with the deductions—for example, Clause 32—you find at the end of the Clause, Sub-section (1), these words:—
      "All sums so paid shall be made good by means of the deductions from the Transferred Sum under this Act in accordance with the Regulations made by the Treasury."
      The point my hon. Friend made is this, that you have this difference in language, and that the Courts will always consider that where the Legislature makes a difference in language they intend some difference. I quite agree that that may be a mistake on the part of the Courts, but the Courts always assume that when the Legislature expresses a thing in different language they intend some difference, so in one case the words occur that the Transferred Sum is to be reduced by a certain sum before you pay it over to the Irish Exchequer, but when once you pay it under Clause 16 you make a deduction under Clauses 32 and 33, and it is nowhere clear that these deductions have to be made before the sum is paid over to the Irish Exchequer. If I understood my hon. Friend aright, the point he wanted to bring forward is that these deductions should be made clear before and not after.
      Mr. J. M. HENDERSON: How can you deduct it after?
      Mr. CASSEL: It would be perfectly easy to pay the constabulary out of it after
      1166
      the deduction. I do not say that is the intention of the Government, but they have unintentionally differentiated the language in the two Clauses in such a way that I think my hon. Friend was perfectly right in asking that this Amendment should be accepted, which makes a very important point clear. If you look at Clause 23, there again you have the words "requisite part of the Transferred Sum." Does the Transferred Sum mean before or after the deduction? If it was right that the deduction had to be made before you arrive at the Transferred Sum, the deduction would have to be made before you paid interest and sinking fund on the loan. I think the matter is left in doubt and obscurity, and I submit it would be only reasonable on the part of the Government to adopt a drafting Amendment, which cannot, in any event, do them any harm.
      Sir E. CARSON: I desire, in the first place, to enter my protest against the way in which we are being treated over these important Financial Clauses. Of course, I perfectly well understand, after what has happened during the last two or three days, that the Government are only anxious to reach half-past ten in order to get rid of the remaining Clauses which set up this ridiculous system of finance. I venture to think that in the whole history of Parliament we have never had such a grave public scandal as that which has happened to-night and is happening upon these Clauses. As regards these five Clauses, we are given from 9.20 to 10.30 to discuss them, and we should not even have had that time had it not been that the Government themselves refused to move their own Amendments for fear that the whole of the time allotted would be used up, and that no time would be left for saying one word about these five Clauses. Is that not reducing Parliamentary procedure to a farce? They tell us that they will move Amendments; they employ the draftsman, I suppose, to draft them and solemnly put them on the Paper, and then when the time comes for them to be moved they say, "We cannot move them, however necessary they may be, because we have allowed so little time by the guillotine that it would be demonstrating the farce we are asking to be carried out by the House if we did not, leave some little time for the process." Anything more aggravating to an Opposition it is impossible to imagine. In point of fact, the one thing the Government

      1167
      have tried to do ever since this Bill came into Committee is to try and aggravate the Opposition by the tyranny and cowardice they have shown in debate. I suppose they think it is a very brave thing to have the guillotine falling at 10.30 to night, because by reason of that they get rid of five very awkward and very important Clauses in this Bill. There is no act of bravery in it at all, for it is an act of pure cowardice. I should have thought that we had had enough of this kind of thing after the example of the Insurance Act last year. When the Insurance Act was being discussed the Government were warned over and over again—
      The CHAIRMAN: I did not take objection to the right hon. Gentleman opening his remarks in the way he did, but he must not proceed in that way because that is not allowed by the order of the House, and he cannot go back.
      Mr. BONAR LAW: May I remind you, Mr. Chairman, of a precedent last year when the Government were dealing with the Insurance Act in a way almost as scandalous as to-night. [HON. MEMBERS: "Order."] On that occasion, when Mr. Speaker was in the Chair on Report, I made for a quarter of an hour precisely the same kind of speech as my right hon. Friend has made with the sanction of Mr. Speaker.
      The CHAIRMAN: Yes, I know that the Chair does allow a little latitude, but that latitude should not be abused. We are now in process of discussing an Amendment. As I said before, I did not interfere with the right hon. Gentleman until he was proceeding to discuss the action of the House in a preceding Session.
      Sir E. CARSON: Considering the time we have got, it is impossible that anybody could be confined to the mere Amendment before the House, because it would be utterly futile. My experience of the guillotine in this House is that necessarily very great latitude has to be given, otherwise the questions which are put off from time to time would never be answered at all. We are told, "Wait till you come to Clause 17, 18, 19, or 20," and when we come to them, and when we come to the time allotted to them, we find that we cannot discuss any of them. How am I to deal with that situation? Do you not know, Mr. Whitley, as well as anybody
      1168
      else that it is scandalous? [HON. MEMBERS: "Order, order."] The truth of the matter is that we are coming to the end of Parliamentary government altogether. To-night demonstrates the wreckage of this House, the wreckage of debate in it, and the mere pantomime that goes on here when you are asked in these few minutes to discuss elaborate Clauses of this kind. I suppose that the Government have made up their minds to look upon this Bill as a reality, although from what has occurred from day to day I am inclined to doubt it; but if they do look upon it as a reality—and if the Bill comes into force next year or the year after, and so far as I am concerned the sooner the better, so that we can get to real work—I predict that what the Government will do will be to appoint Home Rule lecturers. This is the new style of legislation. It does not matter one bit whether any single individual in the House understands a line of this complicated finance or not. The Postmaster-General made a speech on what he said was merely a drafting Amendment, and I suppose he was in earnest when he said that. How long did he take to deal with the drafting Amendment? He took twenty minutes. I listened to him myself. The right hon. Gentleman generally makes a clear statement, and if the matter could be made clear it would be made clear by him. I must say, however, that a more complicated, involved and difficult statement to follow has never been placed before the House. If any hon. Member were honestly to get up and express his opinion on that statement, he would have to say that he did not understand one single word of what the Postmaster-General was talking about. That is the way we have to deal with a drafting Amendment.
      What are all the other points which are not going to be discussed at all and which are not drafting Amendments? There is the difficulty of estimating the Irish taxes. In Clause 17 the 10 per cent. limit comes in and the whole question of adding to the Imperial taxes and the way it has to be done, and in this Clause the Joint Exchequer Board is set up. Nevertheless, we have not had a single discussion upon that subject. Then there are the credits to the Transferred Sum in respect to the transferred and reserved services, and we are not to have a word about them. Clause 18 deals with the Guarantee Fund under the Irish Land Purchase Acts, Clause 19 deals with the Development Fund and the Road

      1169
      Improvement Grant, Clause 20 deals with the Irish Church Temporalities Fund, Clause 21 deals with the audit and the Irish Exchequer, and every one of these matters has to go without a single word. I suppose some time afterwards it will be solemnly said that this Bill passed the House of Commons. There are not twenty Members in the House of Commons who know any single fact in connection with these. Clauses, and they do not care. Their lives depend upon passing them; that is all they know, and so they pass them. This is not passing legislation by the House of Commons at all. It is passing legislation put forward by the Government, allocating time, not in proportion to the importance of the subject in hand, but to the political exigencies of a coalition majority. What does the Postmaster-General confess in relation to this matter? That he cannot tell us even now what are the charges upon the Transferred Sum. Here we are just going to pass this within a quarter of an hour and there is nobody who knows what the charges are and nobody can estimate them, and the right hon. Gentleman says by reason of Amendments put down by the Government there is a hundred thousand a year added to the sums that are to be taken from the Transferred Sum. A hundred thousand a year has never been discussed at all! What does it matter?
      Mr. HERBERT SAMUEL: We have not reached the Clause.
      Sir E. CARSON: "We have not reached the Clause." Why, that is becoming as common in this House as the "Wait and see" period. I put it to the Government: Surely, if they are earnest over this Bill, when they find there is genuinely no time for discussing important provisions, there ought to be some way in which they are able to get over the Closure, and enable, at all events, the important matters in these Clauses to be discussed. Is there anybody in the Government at all who cares about these things? Where is the Prime Minister? Where was he yesterday? He was not here yesterday; he has not been here to-day. [An HON. MEMBER: "He has voted in the Divisions."] This shows the extent of the demoralisation. An hon. Member opposite thinks that in an important case of this kind, the only duty the Prime Minister owes to the House is that he should be here in the Divisions. He ought to be here at a time when the House of Commons is really being wrecked by these means.
      Mr. J. M. HENDERSON: Why does not the right hon. and learned Gentleman discuss the Amendment?
      Sir E. CARSON: Does the hon. Gentleman think that is an interruption on a point of Order, or is it an interruption made just to suit his purpose? It does not very much matter. The hon. Gentleman knows very well you could not discuss this Amendment in the time. He only makes that exclamation for the sake of saying something—something which is not in the least relevant. Suppose at this moment you divide, and the House negatives these words, what then! The House knows perfectly well there is no time for any other Amendment. Look at the way in which the House is being treated. We are passing five important Clauses in an hour and five minutes, and the Prime Minister does not even come down here. They are financial Clauses, and the Chancellor of the Exchequer is not here. Neither is the Chief Secretary here. All these right hon. Gentlemen are supposed to have some interest in this Bill, but presumably they have not been able to master the details of the fantastic provisions as explained in the clear statement of the Postmaster-General. For my part, these proceedings this evening have taken away any pretence about the reality of the Bill. I doubt if there is a single hon. Member who understands anything about these proposals, or who can translate the meaning of the Postmaster-General.
      Mr. MOORE: I am quite willing to give way to the hon. Member for West Aberdeenshire (Mr. J. M. Henderson), who, judging from his interruptions, is quite capable of discussing the Amendment. But as he does not rise, I only want to make one very short observation indeed. I only want to point out that an Act of Parliament becomes an Act and carries weight with it in the country because it has the full sanction of full and free debate in the House. But the Government are passing this through without even this ordinary sanction. One Member of the Government at the last election—as a matter of Radical bluff on the hustings—said the Bill would be forced on the people of Ulster by British bayonets. Are you still going to force this Bill on Ulster people by British bayonets when you will not allow the representatives of the people to discuss a word of it? I shall be glad to give way to the Prime

      1171
      Minister, who has just entered the Chamber, if he wants to defend the action of the Government. The Prime Minister has not been in the House to-night to hear the arguments. I understand from one of his devoted followers that he has been in the Division Lobby. That is his idea of his duty to the House of Commons. Owing to his absence he probably does not know that under his precious time table, and in consequence of the Amendments put down by his colleagues on the Front Bench, we on this side of the Committee have been allowed one hour and ten minutes to discuss five Clauses of the Bill. I ask the Prime Minister whether he approves of that, or will he give us further time, which I think we are entitled to as a matter of reason, to discuss these Clauses? If he does not do so, they will go through without a word being said upon them.
      Before the Prime Minister came in I was asking if, when five important Clauses of this Bill are thrust through without one word being said upon them, debate being prevented by the Government Amendments, it was an Act of Parliament which was going to be thrust by force upon a loyal section of the people of this country. I say the thing is so monstrous that I believe if the Prime Minister had been in full possession of the facts he would have got up, and, with the reasonableness which sometimes distinguishes
      him, said that he would extend the timetable. I hope he will yet do it. This is a state of affairs which is the guillotine run mad. It is absolutely intolerable. As my right hon. Friend said just now, not half a dozen Members on the Government side can tell us what is the subject-matter of these five Clauses. They are perfectly satisfied as long as there is a sufficient number to attend in the Division Lobby, as the hon. Member for West Aberdeenshire (Mr. J. M. Henderson) said. That is the whole duty of man. I ask, when you have Bills put through this House and transformed into Acts of Parliament by brute majorities, without debate, what sanction can they have? So far as I am concerned, I say here, what hundreds of loyal people have said at home, that if anything would add to our intention to resist this Bill by all the means in our power if ever, by a great disaster, it comes into operation, it is the events that have occurred to-night, and the fact that we have not been able to debate these Clauses. It is only part of the unfairness, the deliberate unfairness, of His Majesty's Government.
      Question put, "That those words be there inserted."
      The Committee divided: Ayes, 206; Noes, 314.

      Division No. 338.]

      AYES.

      [10.30 p.m.

      Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

      Cave, George

      Gardner, Ernest

      Aitken, Sir William Max

      Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

      Gastrell, Major W. H.

      Amery, L. C. M. S.

      Cecil, Lord R. (Herts, Hitchin)

      Gibbs, G. A.

      Anson, Rt. Hon. Sir William R.

      Chaloner, Col. R. G. W.

      Goldman, C. S.

      Ashley, W. W.

      Chambers, James

      Gordon, John (Londonderry, South)

      Astor, Waldorf

      Clay, Captain H. H. Spender

      Gordon, Hon. John Edward (Brighton)

      Baird, John Lawrence

      Clive, Captain Percy Archer

      Goulding, Edward Alfred

      Baicarres, Lord

      Clyde, J. Avon

      Greene, Walter Raymond

      Baldwin, Stanley

      Coates, Major Sir Edward Feetham

      Gretton, John

      Banbury, Sir Frederick George

      Cooper, Richard Ashmole

      Guinness, Hon. Rupert (Essex, S. E.)

      Banner, John S. Harmood-

      Courthope, George Loyd

      Guinness, Hon. W. E. (Bury S. Edmunds)

      Barnston, Harry

      Craig, Charles Curtis (Antrim, S.)

      Gwynne, R. S. (Sussex, Eastbourne)

      Barrie, H. T.

      Craig, Ernest (Cheshire, Crewe)

      Haddock, George Bahr

      Bathurst, Charles (Wilts, Wilton)

      Craig, Captain James (Downe, E.)

      Hall, Fred (Dulwich)

      Beach, Hon. Michael Hugh Hicks

      Craig, Norman (Kent, Thanet)

      Hall, Marshall (E. Toxteth)

      Beckett, Hon. Gervase

      Craik, Sir Henry

      Hamersley, Alfred St. George

      Benn, Arthur Shirley (Plymouth)

      Crichton-Stuart, Lord Ninian

      Hamilton, Lord C. J. (Kensington)

      Bentinck, Lord H. Cavendish-

      Cripps, Sir C. A.

      Hamilton, Marquess of (Londonderry)

      Beresford, Lord Charles

      Croft, Henry Page

      Hardy, Rt. Hon. Laurence

      Bigland, Alfred

      Dalziel, Davison (Brixton)

      Harris, Henry Percy

      Bird, A.

      Denniss, E. R. B.

      Harrison-Broadley, H. B.

      Boles, Lieut.-Col. Dennis Fortescue

      Dickson, Rt. Hon. C. Scott

      Helmsley, Viscount

      Boscawen, Sir Arthur S. T. Griffith-

      Dixon, Charles Harvey

      Henderson, Major H. (Berks)

      Boyle, William (Norfolk, Mid)

      Doughty, Sir George

      Herbert, Hon. A. (Somerset, S.)

      Boyton, James

      Duke, Henry Edward

      Hewins, William Albert Samuel

      Bull, Sir William James

      Eyres-Monsell, Bolton M.

      Hickman, Colonel T. E.

      Burn, Colonel C. R.

      Faber, George D. (Clapham)

      Hill, Sir Clement L.

      Butcher, J. G.

      Fell, Arthur

      Hills, John Waller

      Campbell, Capt. Duncan F. (Ayr, N.)

      Fetherstonhaugh, Godfrey

      Hill-Wood, Samuel

      Campbell, Rt. Hon. J. (Dublin Univ.)

      Finlay, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert

      Hoare, S. J. G.

      Campion, W. R.

      Fisher, Rt. Hon. W. Hayes

      Hohler, G. F.

      Carlile, Sir Edward Hildred

      Fleming, Valentine

      Hope, Harry (Bute)

      Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward H.

      Forster, Henry William

      Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield)

      Castlereagh, Viscount

      Foster, Philip Staveley

      Hope, Major J. A. (Midlothian)

      Horne, Edgar (Surrey, Guildford)

      Moore, William

      Spear, Sir John Ward

      Horner, A, L.

      Morrison-Bell, Capt. E. F. (Ashburton)

      Stanier, Beville

      Houston, Robert Paterson

      Mount, William Arthur

      Stanley, Hon. G. F. (Preston)

      Hume-Williams, Wm. Ellis

      Neville, Reginald J. N.

      Starkey, John Ralph

      Hunt, Rowland

      Newdegate, F. A.

      Staveley-Hill, Henry

      Hunter, Sir Charles Rodk.

      Newman, John R. P.

      Steel-Maitland, A. D.

      Ingleby, Holcombe

      Newton, Harry Kottingham

      Stewart, Gershom

      Jardine, Ernest (Somerset, E.)

      Nicholson, Wm. G. (Petersfield)

      Strauss, Arthur (Paddington, N.)

      Jessel, Captain Herbert M.

      Norton-Griffiths, J.

      Swift, Rigby

      Joynson-Hicks, William

      O'Neill, Hon. A. E. B. (Antrim, Mid)

      Sykes, Allan John (Ches., Knutsford)

      Kebty-Fletcher, J. R.

      Orde-Powlett, Hon. W. G. A.

      Sykes, Mark (Hull, Central)

      Kerr-Smiley, Peter Kerr

      Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William

      Talbot, Lord E.

      Kerry, Earl of

      Parker, Sir Gilbert (Gravesend)

      Terrell, Henry (Gloucester)

      Kimber, Sir Henry

      Parkes, Ebenezer

      Thomson, W. Mitchell- (Down, N.)

      Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement

      Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington)

      Thynne, Lord Alexander

      Lane-Fox, G. R.

      Peto, Basil Edward

      Touche, G. A.

      Larmor, Sir J.

      Pole-Carew, Sir R.

      Tryon, Captain George Clement

      Law, Rt. Hon. A. Bonar (Bootle)

      Pollock, Ernest Murray

      Tullibardine, Marquess of

      Lawson, Hon. H. (T. H'm'ts., Mile End)

      Pryce-Jones, Colonel E.

      Valentia, Viscount

      Lloyd, George Ambrose

      Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel

      Walrond, Hon. Lionel

      Locker-Lampson, G. (Salisbury)

      Remnant, James Farquharson

      Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid)

      Locker-Lampson, O. (Ramsey)

      Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall)

      White, Major G. D. (Lancs., Southport)

      Lockwood, Rt. Hon. Lt.-Col. A. R.

      Rolleston, Sir John

      Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.)

      Long, Rt. Hon. Walter

      Ronaldshay, Earl of

      Wills, Sir Gilbert

      Lonsdale, Sir John Brownlee

      Rothschild, Lionel de

      Wolmer, Viscount

      Lowe, Sir F. W. (Birm., Edgbaston)

      Rutherford, John (Lancs., Darwen)

      Wood, Hon. E. F. L. (Yorks, Ripon)

      Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. A. (S. Geo., Han. S.)

      Rutherford, W. (Liverpool, W. Derby)

      Wood, John (Stalybridge)

      Lyttelton, Hon. J. C. (Droitwich)

      Salter, Arthur Clavell

      Worthington-Evans, L.

      MacCaw, Wm. J. MacGeagh

      Samuel, Sir Harry (Norwood)

      Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-

      Mackinder, H. J.

      Sanders, Robert Arthur

      Wright, Henry Fitzherbert

      M'Neill, Ronald (Kent, St. Augustine's)

      Sanderson, Lancelot

      Yate, Col. C. E.

      Magnus, Sir Philip

      Sassoon, Sir Philip

      Yerburgh, Robert A.

      Meysey-Thompson, E. C.

      Scott, Leslie (Liverpool, Exchange)

      Younger, Sir George

      Middlemore, John Throgmorton

      Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

      Mildmay, Francis Bingham

      Smith, Rt. Hon. F. E. (L'p'l, Walton)

      TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr.

      Mills, Hon. Charles Thomas

      Smith, Harold (Warrington)

      Goldsmith and Mr. Cassel.

      NOES.

      Abraham, William (Dublin, Harbour)

      Clough, William

      Gladstone, W. G. C.

      Abraham, Rt. Hon. William (Rhondda)

      Clynes, J. R.

      Glanville, Harold James

      Acland, Francis Dyke

      Collins, G. P. (Greenock)

      Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford

      Adamson, William

      Compton-Rickett, Rt. Hon. Sir J.

      Greenwood, Granville G. (Peterborough)

      Addison, Dr. Christopher

      Condon, Thomas Joseph

      Greenwood, Hamar (Sunderland)

      Adkins, Sir W. Ryland D.

      Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.

      Griffith, Ellis J.

      Agnew, Sir George William

      Cotton, William Francis

      Guest, Major Hon. C. H. C. (Pembroke)

      Ainsworth, John Stirling

      Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth)

      Guest, Hon. Frederick E. (Dorset, E.)

      Allen, A. A. (Dumbartonshire)

      Crawshay-Williams, Eliot

      Gulland, John William

      Allen, Rt. Hon. Charles P. (Stroud)

      Crooks, William

      Gwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway)

      Arnold, Sydney

      Crumley, Patrick

      Hackett, John

      Asquith, Rt. Hon. Herbert Henry

      Cullinan, John

      Hall, Frederick (Normanton)

      Baker, H. T. (Accrington)

      Dalziel, Rt. Hon. Sir J. H. (Kirkcaldy)

      Hancock, John George

      Baker, Joseph Allen (Finsbury, E.)

      Davies, Ellis William (Eifion)

      Harcourt, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Rossendale)

      Balfour, Sir Robert (Lanark)

      Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol)

      Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose)

      Baring, Sir Godfrey (Barnstaple)

      Dawes, J. A.

      Harmsworth, R. L. (Caithnese-shire)

      Barlow, Sir John Emmott (Somerset)

      De Forest, Baron

      Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale)

      Barnes, George N.

      Delany, William

      Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, W.)

      Barran, Sir John N. (Hawick B.)

      Denman, Hon. R. D.

      Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N. E.)

      Barton, William

      Devlin, Joseph

      Haslam, James (Derbyshire)

      Beauchamp, Sir Edward

      Dickinson, W. H.

      Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth)

      Beck, Arthur Cecil

      Dillon, John

      Havelock-Allan, Sir Henry

      Bentham, George Jackson

      Donelan, Captain A.

      Hayden, John Patrick

      Bethell, Sir John Henry

      Doris, W.

      Hayward, Evan

      Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine

      Duffy, William J.

      Hazleton, Richard

      Black, Arthur W.

      Duncan, J. Hastings (Yorks, Otley)

      Helme, Sir Norval Watson

      Boland, John Pius

      Edwards, Clement (Glamorgan, E.)

      Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

      Booth, Frederick Handel

      Edwards, Sir Francis (Radnor)

      Henderson. J. M. (Aberdeen, W.)

      Bowerman, C. W.

      Edwards, John Hugh (Glamorgan, Mid)

      Henry, Sir Charles

      Boyle, Daniel (Mayo, North)

      Elverston, Sir Harold

      Herbert, Col. Sir Ivor (Mon., S.)

      Brace, William

      Esmonde, Dr. John (Tipperary, N.)

      Higham, John Sharp

      Brady, Patrick Joseph

      Esmonde, Sir Thomas (Wexford, N.)

      Hinds, John

      Brocklehurst, W. B.

      Essex, Richard Walter

      Hobhouse, Rt. Hon. Charles E. H.

      Bryce, J. Annan

      Esslemont, George Birnie

      Hodge, John

      Buckmastcr, Stanley O.

      Falconer, J.

      Hogge, James Myles

      Burke, E. Haviland-

      Farrell, James Patrick

      Holmes, Daniel Turner

      Burns, Rt. Hon. John

      Fenwick, Rt. Hon. Charles

      Holt, Richard Durning

      Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas

      Ffrench, Peter

      Hope, John Deans (Haddington)

      Buxton, Rt. Hon. S. C. (Poplar)

      Field, William

      Horne, C. Silvester (Ipswich)

      Byles, Sir William Pollard

      Fiennes, Hon. Eustace Edward

      Howard, Hon. Geoffrey

      Cawley, Sir Frederick (Prestwich)

      Fitzgibbon, John

      Hudson, Walter

      Cawley, Harold T. (Heywood)

      Flavin, Michael Joseph

      Hughes, S. L.

      Chancellor, H. G.

      George, Rt. Hon. D. Lloyd

      Isaacs, Rt. Hon. Sir Rufus

      Chappie, Dr. W. A.

      Gill, A. H.

      Jardine, Sir J. (Roxburgh)

      Clancy, John Joseph

      Ginnell, L.

      John, Edward Thomas

      1174

      1175

      Jones, Edgar (Merthyr Tydvil)

      Neilson, Francis

      Rowntree, Arnold

      Jones, H Haydn (Merioneth)

      Nicholson, Sir Charles N. (Doncaster)

      Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter

      Jones, J. Towyn (Carmarthen, East)

      Nolan, Joseph

      Russell, Rt. Hon. Thomas W.

      Jones, Leif Stratten (Notts, Rushcliffe)

      Norton, Captain Cecil W.

      Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland)

      Jones, William (Carnarvonshire)

      Nugent, Sir Walter Richard

      Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees)

      Jones, W. S. Glyn- (Stepney)

      Nuttall, Harry

      Scanian, Thomas

      Jowett, Frederick William

      O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

      Schwann, Rt. Hon. Sir C. E.

      Joyce, Michael

      O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)

      Scott, A. MacCallum (Glas., Bridgeton)

      Keating, Matthew

      O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)

      Seely, Col. Rt. Hon. J. E. B.

      Kellaway, Frederick George

      O'Doherty, Philip

      Sheehy, David

      Kennedy, Vincent Paul

      O'Donnell, Thomas

      Sherwell, Arthur James

      Kilbride, Denis

      Ogden, Fred

      Shortt, Edward

      King, J.

      OGrady, James

      Simon, Sir John Allsebrook

      Lambert, Rt. Hon. G. (Devon, S. Molton)

      O'Kelly, Edward P. (Wicklow, W.)

      Smith, Albert (Lanes., Clitheroe)

      Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade)

      O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N.)

      Smith, H. B. Lees (Northampton)

      Lardner, James Carrige Rushe

      O'Malley, William

      Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.)

      Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, West)

      O'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, S.)

      Snowden, Philip

      Lawson, Sir W. (Cumb'rid, Cockerm'th)

      O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

      Soames, Arthur Wellesley

      Leach, Charles

      O'Shee, James John

      Spicer, Rt. Hon. Sir Albert

      Levy, Sir Maurice

      O'Sullivan, Timothy

      Stanley, Albert (Staffs, N.W.)

      Lewis, John Herbert

      Outhwaite, R. L.

      Strauss, Edward A. (Southwark, West)

      Lough, Rt. Hon. Thomas

      Palmer, Godfrey Mark

      Sutherland, John E.

      Low, Sir Frederick (Norwich)

      Parker, James (Halifax)

      Sutton, John E.

      Lundon, T.

      Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek)

      Taylor, John (W. (Durham)

      Lyell, Charles Henry

      Pearce, William (Limehouse)

      Taylor, T. C. (Radcliffe)

      Lynch, Arthur Alfred

      Pease, Rt. Hon. Joseph (Rotherham)

      Taylor, Thomas (Bolton)

      Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester)

      Philipps, Col. Ivor (Southampton)

      Tennant, Harold John

      Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk Burghs)

      Phillips, John (Longford, S.)

      Thomas, J. H.

      McGhee, Richard

      Pirie, Duncan V.

      Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton)

      Macnamara, Rt. Hon, Dr. T. J.

      Pointer, Joseph

      Thorne, William (West Ham)

      MacNeill, J. G. Swift (Donegal, South)

      Pollard, Sir George H.

      Toulmin, Sir George

      Macpherson, James Ian

      Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H.

      Trevelyan, Charles Philips

      MacVeagh, Jeremiah

      Power, Patrick Joseph

      Verney, Sir Harry

      M'Callum, Sir John M.

      Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central)

      Wadsworth, John

      M'Curdy, C. A.

      Price, Sir Robert J. (Norfolk, E.)

      Walsh, Stephen (Lancs., Ince)

      M'Kean, John

      Priestley, Sir Arthur (Grantham)

      Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent)

      McKenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald

      Priestley, Sir W. E. B. (Bradford, E.)

      Wardle, George J.

      M'Laren, Hon. H. D. (Leics.)

      Primrose, Hon. Neil James

      Waring, Walter

      M'Micking, Major Gilbert

      Pringle, William M. R.

      Warner, Sir Thomas Courtenay

      Manfield, Harry

      Radford, G. H.

      Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney)

      Marks, Sir George Croydon

      Raffan, Peter Wilson

      Webb, H.

      Mason, David M. (Coventry)

      Raphael, Sir Herbert H.

      Wedgwood, Josiah C.

      Masterman, Rt. Hon. C. F. G.

      Rea, Rt. Hon. Russell (South Shields)

      White, J. Dundas (Glasgow, Tradeston)

      Meagher, Michael

      Rea, Walter Russell (Scarborough)

      White, Patrick (Meath, North)

      Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.)

      Reddy, M.

      Whitehouse, John Howard

      Menzies, Sir, Walter

      Redmond, John E. (Waterford)

      Whittaker, Rt. Hon. Sir T. P.

      Millar, James Duncan

      Redmond, William (Clare, E.)

      Whyte, A. F. (Perth)

      Molloy, M.

      Redmond, William Archer (Tyrone, E.)

      Wiles, Thomas

      Molteno, Percy Alport

      Rendall, Athelstan

      Wilkie, Alexander

      Mond, Sir Alfred Moritz

      Richardson, Albion (Peckham)

      Williams, John (Glamorgan)

      Money, L. G. Chiozza

      Richardson, Thomas (Whitehaven)

      Williams, Llewelyn (Carmarthen)

      Mooney, John J.

      Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)

      Williams, Penry (Middlesbrough)

      Morgan, George Hay

      Roberts, Sir J. H. (Denbighs)

      Wilson, Hon. G. G. (Hull, W.)

      Morrell, Philip

      Robertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradford)

      Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)

      Morison, Hector

      Robertson, John M. (Tyneside)

      Winfrey, Richard

      Morton, Alpheus Cleophas

      Robinson, Sidney

      Young, Samuel (Cavan, East)

      Muldoon, John

      Roch, Walter F. (Pembroke)

      Young, William (Perth, East)

      Munro-Ferguson, Rt. Hon. R. C.

      Roche, Augustine (Louth)

      Yoxall, Sir James Henry

      Murray, Capt. Hon. A. C.

      Roche, John (Galway, E.)

      Nannetti, Joseph

      Roe, Sir Thomas

      TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr.

      Needham, Christopher T.

      Rowlands, James

      Illingworth and Mr. Wedgwood Benn,

      It being after half-past Ten of the clock, the CHAIRMAN proceeded, pursuant to the Order of the House of the 14th October, successively to put forthwith the Questions on Amendments, moved by the Government, of which notice had been given, and the Questions necessary to dispose of the business to be concluded at half-past Ten of the Clock at this day's sitting.
      Government Amendment: In Subsection (2), to leave out the word "financial" ["shall be reduced in each financial year"].—[Mr. Herbert Samuel.]
      Question put, "That the Amendment be made."
      The Committee divided: Ayes, 322; Noes, 217.

      Division No. 339.]

      AYES.

      [10.43 p.m.

      Abraham, William (Dublin, Harbour)

      Addison, Dr. C.

      Allen, Arthur A. (Dumbarton)

      Abraham, Rt. Hon. William (Rhondda)

      Adkins, Sir W. Ryland D.

      Allen, Rt. Hon. Charles P. (Stroud)

      Acland, Francis Dyke

      Agnew, Sir George William

      Arnold, Sydney

      Adamson, William

      Ainsworth, John Stirling

      Asquith, Rt. Hon. Herbert Henry

      Baker, Harold T. (Accrington)

      Greenwood, Hamar (Sunderland)

      Mason, David M. (Coventry)

      Baker, Joseph A. (Finsbury, E.)

      Griffith, Ellis Jones

      Masterman, Rt. Hon. C. F. G.

      Balfour, Sir Robert (Lanark)

      Guest, Major Hon. C. H, C. (Pembroke)

      Meagher, Michael

      Baring, Sir Godfrey (Barnstaple)

      Guest, Hon, Frederick E. (Dorset, E.)

      Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.)

      Barlow, Sir John Emmott (Somerset)

      Gulland, John W.

      Menzies, Sir Walter

      Barnes, G. N.

      Gwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway)

      Millar, James Duncan

      Barran, Sir John (Hawick)

      Hackett, John

      Molloy, M.

      Barton, W.

      Hall, F. (Yorks, Normanton)

      Molteno, Percy Alport

      Beauchamp, Sir Edward

      Hancock, John George

      Mond, Sir Alfred Morltz

      Beck, Arthur Cecil

      Harcourt, Rt. Hon. L. (Rossendale)

      Money, L. G. Chiozza

      Bentham, G. J.

      Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose)

      Mooney, John J.

      Bethell, Sir John Henry

      Harmsworth, R. L. (Caithness-shire)

      Morgan, George Hay

      Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine

      Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale)

      Morrell, Philip

      Black, Arthur W.

      Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, W.)

      Morison, Hector

      Boland, John Pius

      Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N.E.)

      Morton, Alpheus Cleophas

      Booth, Frederick Handel

      Haslam, James (Derbyshire)

      Muldoon, John

      Bowerman, C. W.

      Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth)

      Munro-Ferguson, Rt. Hon. R. C.

      Boyle, D. (Mayo, N.)

      Havelock-Allen, Sir Henry

      Murray, Captain Hon. Arthur C.

      Brace, William

      Hayden, John Patrick

      Nannetti, Joseph P.

      Brady, P. J.

      Hayward, Evan

      Needham, Christopher T.

      Brocklehurst, W, B.

      Hazleton, Richard

      Neilson, Francis

      Bryce, J. Annan

      Helme, Sir Norval Watson

      Nicholson, Sir Charles (Doncaster)

      Buckmaster, Stanley O.

      Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

      Nolan, Joseph

      Burke, E. Haviland-

      Henderson, J. M. (Aberdeen, W.)

      Norton, Captain Cecil W.

      Burns, Rt. Hon. John

      Henry, Sir Charles

      Nugent, Sir Walter Richard

      Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas

      Herbert, Col. Sir Ivor (Mon., S.)

      Nuttall, Harry

      Buxton, Rt. Hon. Sydney C. (Poplar)

      Higham, John Sharp

      O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

      Byles, Sir William Pollard

      Hinds, John

      O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)

      Carr-Gomm, H. W.

      Hobhouse, Rt. Hon. Charles E. H.

      O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)

      Cawley, Sir Frederick (Prestwich)

      Hodge, John

      O'Doherty, Philip

      Cawley, Harold T. (Lancs., Heywood)

      Hogge, James Myles

      O'Donnell, Thomas

      Chancellor, H. G.

      Holmes, Daniel Turner

      Ogden, Fred

      Chapple, Dr. William Alien

      Holt, Richard Durning

      O'Grady, James

      Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston S.

      Hope, John Deans (Haddington)

      O'Kelly, Edward P. (Wicklow, W.)

      Clancy, John Joseph

      Home, C. Silvester (Ipswich)

      O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N.)

      Clough, William

      Howard, Hon. Geoffrey

      O'Malloy, William

      Clynes, J. R.

      Hudson, Walter

      O'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, S.)

      Collins, G. P. (Greenock)

      Hughes, Spencer Leigh

      O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

      Compton-Rickett, Rt. Hon. Sir J.

      Isaacs, Rt. Hon. Sir Rufus

      O'Shee, James John

      Condon, Thomas Joseph

      Jardine, Sir J. (Roxburgh)

      O'Sullivan, Timothy

      Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.

      John, Edward Thomas

      Outhwaite, R. L.

      Cotton, William Francis

      Jones, Edgar R. (Merthyr Tydvil)

      Palmer, Godfrey Mark

      Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth)

      Jones, H. Haydn (Merioneth)

      Parker, James (Halifax)

      Crawshay-Williams, Eliot

      Jones, J. Towyn (Carmarthen, East)

      Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek)

      Crooks, William

      Jones, Leif Stratten (Notts. Rushcliffe)

      Pearce, William (Limehouse)

      Crumley, Patrick

      Jones, William (Carnarvonshire)

      Pease, Rt. Hon. Joseph A. (Rotherham)

      Cullinan, J.

      Jones, W. S. Glyn- (T. H'mts, Stepney)

      Philipps, Col. Ivor (Southampton)

      Dalziel, Rt. Hon. Sir J. H. (Kirkcaldy)

      Jowett, Frederick William

      Phillips, John (Longford, S.)

      Davies, E. William (Eifion)

      Joyce, Michael

      Pirie, Duncan V.

      Davies, Timothy (Lincs., Louth)

      Keating, M.

      Pointer, Joseph

      Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.)

      Kellaway, Frederick George

      Pollard, Sir George H.

      Dawes, J. A.

      Kennedy, Vincent Paul

      Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H.

      Delany, William

      Kilbride, Denis

      Power, Patrick Joseph

      Denman, Hon. Richard Douglas

      King, Joseph

      Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central)

      Devlin, Joseph

      Lambert, Rt. Hon. G. (Devon, S. Molton)

      Price, Sir Robert J. (Norfolk, E.)

      Dickinson, W. H.

      Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Crickdale)

      Priestley, Sir Arthur (Grantham)

      Dillon, John

      Lardner, James Carrige Rushe

      Priestley, Sir W. E. B. (Bradford, E.)

      Donelan, Captain A.

      Law, Huqh A. (Donegal, W.)

      Primrose, Hon. Neil James

      Doris, William

      Lawson, Sir W. (Cumb'rld, Cockerm'th)

      Pringle, William M. R.

      Duffy, William J.

      Leach, Charles

      Radford, G. H.

      Duncan, J. Hastings (Yorks, Otley)

      Levy, Sir Maurice

      Raffan, Peter Wilson

      Edwards, A. Clement (Glamorgan, E.)

      Lewis, John Herbert

      Raphael, Sir Herbert H.

      Edwards, Sir Francis (Radnor)

      Lough, Rt. Hon. Thomas

      Rea, Rt. Hon. Russell (South Shields)

      Edwards, John Hugh (Glamorgan, Mid)

      Low, Sir Frederick (Norwich)

      Rea, Walter Russell (Scarborough)

      Elverston, Sir Harold

      Lundon, Thomas

      Reddy, Michael

      Esmonde, Dr. John (Tipperary, N.)

      Lyell, Charles Henry

      Redmond, John E. (Waterford)

      Esmonde, Sir Thomas (Wexford, N.)

      Lynch, Arthur Alfred

      Redmond, William (Clare, E.)

      Essex, Richard Walter

      Macdonald, J. Ramsay (Leicester)

      Redmond, William Archer (Tyrone)

      Esslemont, George Birnie

      Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk Burghs)

      Rendall, Athelstan

      Falconer, J.

      McGhee, Richard

      Richardson, Albion (Peckham)

      Farrell, James Patrick

      Macnamara, Rt. Hon. Dr. T. J.

      Richardson, Thomas (Whitehaven)

      Fenwick, Rt. Hon. Charles

      MacNeill, J. G. Swift (Donegal, South)

      Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)

      Ffrench, Peter

      Macpherson, James Ian

      Roberts, Sir J. H. (Denbighs)

      Field, William

      MacVeagh, Jeremiah

      Robertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradford)

      Fiennes, Hon. Eustace Edward

      M'Callum, Sir John M.

      Robertson, John M. (Tyneside)

      Fitzgibbon, John

      M'Curdy, C. A.

      Robinson, Sidney

      Flavin, Michael Joseph

      M'Kean, John

      Roch, Walter F.

      George, Rt. Hon. D. Lloyd

      McKenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald

      Roche, Augustine (Louth)

      Gill, A. H.

      M'Laren, Hon. H. D. (Leics.)

      Roche, John (Galway, E.)

      Ginnell, L.

      M'Laren, Hon. F. W. S. (Lincs., Spalding)

      Roe, Sir Thomas

      Gladstone, W G. C.

      M'Micking, Major Gilbert

      Rowlands, James

      Glanville, H. J.

      Manfield, Harry

      Rowntree, Arnold

      Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford

      Marks, Sir George Croydon

      Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter

      Greenwood, Granville G. (Peterborough)

      Martin, Joseph

      Russell, Rt. Hon. Thomas W.

      Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland)

      Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)

      Whitehouse, John Howard

      Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees)

      Tennant, Harold John

      Whittaker, Rt. Hon. Sir Thomas P.

      Scanlan, Thomas

      Thomas, J. H.

      Whyte, Alexander F.

      Schwann, Rt. Hon. Sir C.

      Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton)

      Wiles Thomas

      Scott, A. MacCallum (Glas., Bridgeton)

      Thorne, William (West Ham)

      Wilkie, Alexander

      Seely, Col. Rt. Hon. J. E. B.

      Toulmin, Sir George

      Williams, John (Glamorgan)

      Sheehy, David

      Trevelyan, Charles Philips

      Williams, Llewelyn (Carmarthen)

      Sherwell, Arthur James

      Ure, Rt. Hon. Alexander

      Williams, Penry (Middlesbrough)

      Shortt, Edward

      Verney, Sir Harry

      Wilson, Hon. G. G. (Hull, W.)

      Simon, Sir John Allsebrook

      Wadsworth, J.

      Wilson, Rt. Hon. J. W. (Worcs., N.)

      Smith, Albert (Lancs., Clitheroe)

      Walsh, Stephen (Lancs., Ince)

      Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)

      Smith, H. B. L. (Northampton)

      Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent)

      Winfrey, Richard

      Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.)

      Wardle, G. J.

      Wood, Rt. Hon. T. McKinnon (Glas.)

      Snowden, Philip

      Waring, Walter

      Young, Samuel (Cavan, E.)

      Soames, Arthur Wellesley

      Warner, Sir Thomas Courtenay

      Young, William (Perth, East)

      Spicer, Rt. Hon. Sir Albert

      Wason, Rt. Hon. E. (Clackmannan)

      Yoxall, Sir James Henry

      Stanley, Albert (Staffs, N.W.)

      Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney)

      Strauss, Edward A. (Southwark, West)

      Webb, H.

      Sutherland, J. E.

      Wedgwood, Josiah C.

      TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr.

      Sutton, John E.

      White, J. Dundas (Glasgow, Tradeston)

      Illingworth and Mr. Wedgwood Benn.

      Taylor, John W. (Durham)

      White, Patrick (Meath, North)

      NOES.

      Agar-Robartes, Hon. T. C. R.

      Duke, Henry Edward

      Lane-Fox, G. R.

      Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

      Eyres-Monsell, B. M.

      Larmor, Sir J.

      Aitken, Sir William Max

      Faber, George D. (Clapham)

      Law, Rt. Hon. A. Bonar (Bootle)

      Amery, L. C. M. S.

      Fell, Arthur

      Lawson, Hon. H. (T. H'mts., Mile End)

      Anson, Rt. Hon. Sir William R.

      Fetherstonhaugh, Godfrey

      Lewisham, Viscount

      Ashley, W. W.

      Finlay Rt. Hon. Sir Robert

      Lloyd, George Ambrose

      Astor, Wardort

      Fisher, Rt. Hon. W. Hayes

      Locker-Lampson, G. (Salisbury)

      Baird, J. L.

      Fleming, Valentine

      Locker-Lampson, O. (Ramsey)

      Balcarres, Lord

      Forster, Henry William

      Lockwood, Rt. Hon. Lt.-Col. A. R.

      Baldwin, Stanley

      Foster, Philip Staveley

      Long, Rt. Hon. Walter

      Banbury, Sir Frederick George

      Gardner, Ernest

      Lonsdale, Sir John Brownlee

      Barnston, Harry

      Gastrell, Major W. H.

      Lowe, Sir F. W. (Birm, Edgbaston)

      Barrie, H. T.

      Gibbs, G. A.

      Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. A. (St. Geo., Han. S.)

      Bathurst, Charles (Wilts, Wilton)

      Goldman, C. S.

      Lyttelton, Hon. J. C. (Droitwich)

      Beach, Hon. Michael Hugh Hicks

      Goldsmith, Frank

      MacCaw, Wm. J. MacGeagh

      Beckett, Hon. Gervase

      Gordon, John (Londonderry, South)

      Mackinder, Halford J.

      Bonn, Arthur Shirley (Plymouth)

      Gordon, Hon. John Edward (Brighton)

      Macmaster, Donald

      Bentinck, Lord H. Cavendish-

      Goulding, Edward Alfred

      M'Neill, Ronald (Kent, St. Augustine's)

      Beresford, Lord C.

      Greene, Walter Raymond

      Magnus, Sir Philip

      Bigland, Alfred

      Gretton, John

      Meysey-Thompson, E. C.

      Bird, A.

      Guinness, Hon. Rupert (Essex, S.E.)

      Middlemore, John Throgmorton

      Boles, Lieut.-Col. Dennis Fortescue

      Guinness, Hon. W. E. (Bury S. Edmunds)

      Mildmay, Francis Bingham

      Boscawen, Sir Arthur S. T. Griffith-

      Gwynne, R. S. (Sussex, Eastbourne)

      Mills, Hon. Charles Thomas

      Boyle, William (Norfolk, Mid)

      Haddock, George Bahr

      Moore, William

      Boyton, J.

      Hall, D. B. (Isle of Wight)

      Morrison-Bell, Capt. E. F. (Ashburton)

      Bridgeman, W. Clive

      Hall, Fred (Dulwich)

      Mount, William Arthur

      Bull, Sir William James

      Hall, Marshall (E. Toxteth)

      Neville, Reginald J. N.

      Burn, Colonel C. R.

      Hamersley, A. St. George

      Newdegate, F. A.

      Butcher, J. G.

      Hamilton, Lord C. J. (Kensington, S.)

      Newman, John R. P.

      Campbell, Capt. Duncan F. (Ayr, N.)

      Hamilton, Marquess of (Londonderry)

      Newton, Harry Kottingham

      Campbell, Rt. Hon. J. (Dublin Univ.)

      Hardy, Rt. Hon. Laurence

      Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield)

      Campion, William Robert

      Harris, Henry Percy

      Nield, Herbert

      Carlile, Sir Edward Hildred

      Harrison-Broadley, H. B.

      Norton-Griffiths, J.

      Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward H.

      Helmsley, Viscount

      O'Neill, Hon. A. E. B. (Antrim, Mid)

      Cassel, Felix

      Henderson, Major H. (Berks, Abingdon)

      Orde-Powlett, Hon. G. W. A.

      Castlereagh, Viscount

      Herbert, Hon. A. (Somerset, S.)

      Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William

      Cave, George

      Hewins, William Albert Samuel

      Parker, Sir Gilbert (Gravesend)

      Cecil Evelyn (Aston Manor)

      Hickman, Colonel Thomas E.

      Parkes, Ebenezer

      Cecil, Lord R. (Herts, Hitchin)

      Hill, Sir Clement

      Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington)

      Chaloner, Col. R. G. W.

      Hills, J. W.

      Peto, Basil Edward

      Chambers, James

      Hill-Wood, Samuel

      Pole-Carew, Sir R.

      Clay, Captain H. H. Spender

      Hoare, S. J. G.

      Pollock, E. M.

      Clive, Captain Percy Archer

      Hohler, G. F.

      Pryce-Jones, Col. E.

      Clyde, James Avon

      Hope, Harry (Bute)

      Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel

      Coates, Major Sir Edward Feetham

      Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield)

      Remnant, James Farquharson

      Cooper, Richard Ashmole

      Hope, Major J. A. (Midlothian)

      Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall)

      Courthope, George Loyd

      Horne, Edgar (Surrey, Guildford)

      Rolleston, Sir John

      Craig, Charles Curtis (Antrim, S.)

      Horner, A. L.

      Ronaldshay, Earl of

      Craig, E. (Ches., Crewe)

      Houston, Robert Paterson

      Rothschild, Lionel de

      Craig, Captain James (Down, E.)

      Hume-Williams, W. E.

      Rutherford, John (Lancs., Darwen)

      Craig, Norman (Kent, Thanet)

      Hunt, Rowland

      Rutherford, W. (Liverpool, W. Derby)

      Craik, Sir Henry

      Hunter, Sir C. R.

      Salter, Arthur Clavell

      Crichton-Stuart, Lord Ninian

      Ingleby, Holcombe

      Samuel, Sir Harry (Norwood)

      Cripps, Sir C. A.

      Jardine, E. (Somerset, E.)

      Sanders, Robert A.

      Croft, H. P.

      Jessel, Captain H. M.

      Sanderson, Lancelot

      Dalziel, D. (Brixton)

      Joynson-Hicks, William

      Sassoon, Sir Philip

      Denniss, E. R. B.

      Kebty-Fletcher, J. R.

      Scott, Leslie (Liverpool, Exchange)

      Dickson, Rt. Hon. C. S.

      Kerry, Earl of

      Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

      Dixon, C. H.

      Kimber, Sir Henry

      Smith, Rt. Hon. F. E. (L'p'l, Walton)

      Doughty, Sir George

      Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement

      Smith, Harold (Warrington)

      1180

      1181

      Spear, Sir John Ward

      Terrell, H. (Gloucester)

      Winterton, Earl

      Stanier, Beville

      Thomson, W. Mitchell- (Down, North)

      Wolmer, Viscount

      Stanley, Major Hon. G. F. (Preston)

      Thynne, Lord Alexander

      Wood, Hon. E. F. L. (Ripon)

      Starkey, John R.

      Tobin, Alfred Aspinall

      Wood, John (Stalybridge)

      Staveley-Hill, Henry

      Touche, George Alexander

      Worthington-Evans, L.

      Steel-Maitland, A. D.

      Tryon, Captain George Clement

      Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-

      Stewart, Gershom

      Tullibardine, Marquess of

      Wright, Henry Fitzherbert

      Strauss, Arthur (Paddington, North)

      Valentia, Viscount

      Yate, Col. C. E.

      Swift, Rigby

      Ward, A. S. (Herts, Watford)

      Yerburgh, Robert A.

      Sykes, Alan John (Ches., Knutsford)

      Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid)

      Younger, Sir George

      Sykes, Mark (Hull, Central)

      White, Major G. D. (Lancs., Southport)

      Talbot, Lord E.

      Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.)

      TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr.

      Terrell, George (Wilts, N.W.)

      Wills, Sir Gilbert

      Walrond and Mr. Kerr-Smiley.

      Question put, "That the Clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill."
      The Committee divided: Ayes, 323; Noes, 220.

      Division No. 340.]

      AYES.

      [10.52 p.m.

      Abraham, William (Dublin, Harbour)

      Davies, Timothy (Lincs., Louth)

      Hodge, John

      Abraham, Rt. Hon. William (Rhondda)

      Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, s.)

      Hogge, James Myles

      Acland, Francis Dyke

      Dawes, J. A.

      Holmes, Daniel Turner

      Adamson, William

      De Forest, Baron

      Holt, Richard Durning

      Addison, Dr. C.

      Delany, William

      Hope, John Deans (Haddington)

      Adkins, Sir W. Ryland D.

      Denman, Hon. Richard Douglas

      Home, C. Silvester (Ipswich)

      Agnew, Sir George William

      Devlin, Joseph

      Hudson, Waiter

      Ainsworth, John Stirling

      Dickinson, W. H.

      Hughes, Spencer Leigh

      Allen, Arthur A. (Dumbartonshire)

      Dillon, John

      Illingworth, Percy H.

      Allen, Rt. Hon. Charles P. (Stroud)

      Donelan, Captain A.

      Isaacs, Rt. Hon. Sir Rufus

      Arnold, Sydney

      Doris, William

      Jardine, Sir John (Roxburghshire)

      Asquith, Rt. Hon. Herbert Henry

      Duffy, William J.

      John, Edward Thomas

      Baker, H. T, (Accrington)

      Duncan, J. Hastings (Yorks, Otley)

      Jones, Edgar (Merthyr Tydvil)

      Baker, Joseph Allen (Finsbury, E.)

      Edwards, Clement (Glamorgan, E.)

      Jones, H. Haydn (Merioneth)

      Balfour, Sir Robert (Lanark)

      Edwards, Sir Francis (Radnor)

      Jones, J. Towyn (Carmarthen, East)

      Baring, Sir Godfrey (Barnstaple)

      Edwards, John Hugh (Glamorgan, Mid)

      Jones, Leif Straiten (Notts, Rushcliffe)

      Barlow, Sir John Emmott (Somerset)

      Elverston, Sir Harold

      Jones, William (Carnarvonshire)

      Barnes, George N.

      Esmonde, Dr. John (Tipperary, N.)

      Jones, W. S. Glyn. (T. H'mts, Stepney)

      Barran, Sir J. N. (Hawick Burghs)

      Esmonde, Sir Thomas (Wexford, N.)

      Jowett, Frederick William

      Barran, Rowland Hurst (Leeds, N.)

      Essex, Richard Walter

      Joyce, Michael

      Barton, William

      Esslemont, George Birnie

      Keating, Matthew

      Beauchamp, Sir Edward

      Falconer, James

      Kellaway, Frederick George

      Beck, Arthur Cecil

      Farrell, James Patrick

      Kennedy, Vincent Paul

      Benn, W. W. (T. H'mts, St. George)

      Fenwick, Rt. Hon. Charles

      Kilbride, Denis

      Bentham, G. J.

      Ffrench, Peter

      King, J.

      Bethell, Sir John Henry

      Field, William

      Lambert, Rt. Hon. G. (Devon, S. Molton)

      Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine

      Fiennes, Hon. Eustace Edward

      Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Crickiade)

      Black, Arthur W.

      Fitzgibbon, John

      Lardner, James Carrige Rushe

      Boland, John Pius

      Flavin, Michael Joseph

      Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, West)

      Booth, Frederick Handel

      George, Rt. Hon. D. Lloyd

      Lawson, Sir W. (Cumb'rld, Cockerm'th)

      Bowerman, C. W.

      Gill, A. H.

      Leach, Charles

      Boyle, Daniel (Mayo, North)

      Ginnell, Laurence

      Levy, Sir Maurice

      Brace, William

      Gladstone, W. G. C.

      Lewis, John Herbert

      Brady, P. J.

      Glanville, H. J.

      Lough, Rt. Hon. Thomas

      Brocklehurst, W. B.

      Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford

      Low, Sir F. (Norwich)

      Bryce, J. Annan

      Greenwood, Granville G. (Peterborough)

      Lundon, T.

      Buckmaster, Stanley O.

      Greenwood, Hamar (Sunderland)

      Lyell, Charles Henry

      Burke, E. Haviland-

      Griffith, Ellis Jones

      Lynch, Arthur Alfred

      Burns, Rt. Hon. John

      Guest, Major Hon. C. H. C. (Pembroke)

      Macdonald, J, R. (Leicester)

      Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas

      Gulland, John W.

      Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk Burghs)

      Buxton, Rt. Hon. Sydney A, (Poplar)

      Gwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway)

      McGhee, Richard

      Byles, Sir William Pollard

      Hackett, J.

      Macnamara, Rt. Hon. Dr. T. J.

      Carr-Gomm, H. W.

      Hall, Frederick (Normanton)

      MacNeill, J. G. Swift (Donegal, South)

      Cawley, Sir Frederick (Prestwich)

      Hancock, J. G.

      Macpherson, James Ian

      Cawley, H. T. (Lancs., Heywood)

      Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Lewis (Rossendale)

      MacVeagh, Jeremiah

      Chancellor, Henry George

      Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose)

      M'Callum, Sir John M.

      Chapple, Dr. William Allen

      Harmsworth, R. L. (Caithness-shire)

      M'Curdy, C. A.

      Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston S.

      Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale)

      M'Kean, John

      Clancy, John Joseph

      Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, W.)

      McKenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald

      Clough, William

      Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N.E.)

      M'Laren, Hon. H. D. (Leics.)

      Clynes, John R.

      Haslam, James (Derbyshire)

      M'Laren, Hon. F. W. S. (Lincs., Spalding)

      Collins, G. P. (Greenock)

      Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth)

      M'Micking, Major Gilbert

      Compton-Rickett, Rt. Hon. Sir J.

      Havelock-Allan, Sir Henry

      Manfield, Harry

      Condon, Thomas Joseph

      Hayden, John Patrick

      Marks, Sir George Croydon

      Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.

      Hayward, Evan

      Martin, J.

      Cotton, William Francis

      Hazleton, Richard

      Mason, David M. (Coventry)

      Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth)

      Helme, Sir Norval Watson

      Masterman, Rt. Hon. C. F. G.

      Crawshay-Williams, Eliot

      Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

      Meagher, Michael

      Crooks, William

      Henry, Sir Charles

      Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.)

      Crumley, Patrick

      Herbert, Col. Sir Ivor (Mon. S.)

      Menzies, Sir Walter

      Cullinan, J.

      Higham, John Sharp

      Millar, James Duncan

      Dalziel, Rt. Hon. Sir J. H. (Kirkcaldy)

      Hinds, John

      Molloy, Michael

      Davies, Ellis William (Elfion)

      Hobhouse, Rt. Hon. Charles E. H.

      Molteno, Percy Alport

      Mond, Sir Alfred Moritz

      Price, Sir Robert J. (Norfolk, E.)

      Stanley, Albert (Staffs, N.W.)

      Money, L. G. Chiozza

      Priestley, Sir Arthur (Grantham)

      Strauss, Edward A. (Southwark, West)

      Mooney, John J.

      Priestley, Sir W. E. B. (Bradford, E.)

      Sutherland, John E.

      Morgan, George Hay

      Primrose, Hon. Neill James

      Sutton, John E.

      Worrell, Philip

      Pringle, William M. R.

      Taylor, John W. (Durham)

      Morison, Hector

      Radford, G. H.

      Taylor, T. C. (Radcliffe)

      Morton, Alpheus Cleophas

      Rattan, Peter Wilson

      Tennant, Harold John

      Muldoon, John

      Raphael, Sir Herbert Henry

      Thomas, J. H.

      Munro-Ferguson, Rt. Hon R. C.

      Rea, Rt. Hon. Russell (South Shields)

      Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton)

      Murray, Captain Hon. Arthur C.

      Rea, Walter Russell (Scarborough)

      Thorne, William (West Ham)

      Nannetti, Joseph P.

      Reddy, Michael

      Toulmin, Sir George

      Needham, Christopher T.

      Redmond, John E. (Waterford)

      Trevelyan, Charles Philips

      Neilson, Francis

      Redmond, William (Clare, E.)

      Ure, Rt. Hon. Alexander

      Nicholson, Sir Charles N. (Doncaster)

      Redmond, William Archer (Tyrone, E.)

      Verney, Sir Harry

      Nolan, Joseph

      Rendall, Atheistan

      Wadsworth, John

      Norton, Captain Cecil W.

      Richardson, Albion (Peckham)

      Walsh, Stephen (Lancs., Ince)

      Nugent, Sir Walter Richard

      Richardson, Thomas (Whitehaven)

      Walton, Sir Joseph

      Nuttall, Harry

      Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)

      Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent)

      O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

      Roberts, Sir J. H. (Denbighs)

      Wardle, George J.

      O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)

      Robertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradford)

      Waring, Walter

      O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)

      Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside)

      Warner, Sir Thomas Courtenay

      O'Doherty, Philip

      Robinson, Sidney

      Wason, Rt. Hon. E. (Clackmannan)

      O'Donnell, Thomas

      Roch, Walter F.

      Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney)

      Ogden, Fred

      Roche, Augustine (Louth)

      Webb, H.

      O'Grady, James

      Roche, John (Galway, E.)

      Wedgwood, Josiah C.

      O'Kelly, Edward P. (Wicklow, W.)

      Roe, Sir Thomas

      White, J. Dundas (Glasgow, Tradeston)

      O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N.)

      Rowlands, James

      White, Patrick (Meath, North)

      O'Malley, William

      Rowntree, Arnold

      Whitehouse, John Howard

      O'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, S.)

      Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter

      Whittaker, Rt. Hon. Sir Thomas P.

      O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

      Russell, Rt. Hon. Thomas W.

      Whyte, A. F.

      O'Shee, James John

      Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland)

      Wiles, Thomas

      O'Sullivan, Timothy

      Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees)

      Wilkie, Alexander

      Outhwaite, R. L.

      Scanlan, Thomas

      Williams, John (Glamorgan)

      Palmer, Godfrey Mark

      Schwann, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles E.

      Williams, Llewelyn (Carmarthen)

      Parker, James (Halifax)

      Scott, A. MacCallum (Glas., Bridgeton)

      Williams, Penry (Middlesbrough)

      Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek)

      Seely, Col. Rt. Hon. J. E. B.

      Wilson, Hon. G. G. (Hull, W.)

      Pearce, William (Limehouse)

      Sheehy, David

      Wilson, Rt. Hon. J. W. (Worcs., N.)

      Pease, Robert Joseph A. (Rotherham)

      Sherwell, Arthur James

      Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)

      Phillips, Col. Ivor (Southampton)

      Shortt, Edward

      Winfrey, Richard

      Phillips, John (Longford, S.)

      Simon, Sir John Allsebrook

      Wood, Rt. Hon. T. McKinnon (Glas.)

      Pirie, Duncan Vernon

      Smith, Albert (Lancs., Clitheroe)

      Young, Samuel (Cavan, E.)

      Pointer, Joseph

      Smith, H. B. (Northampton)

      Young, William (Perth, East)

      Pollard, Sir George H.

      Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.)

      Yoxall, Sir James Henry

      Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H.

      Snowden, P.

      Power, Patrick Joseph

      Soames, Arthur Wellesley

      TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr.

      Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central)

      Spicer, Rt. Hon. Sir Albert

      G. Howard and Captain Guest

      NOES.

      Agar-Robartes, Hon. T. C. R.

      Cassel, Felix

      Forster, Henry William

      Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

      Castlereagh, Viscount

      Foster, Philip Staveley

      Aitken, Sir William Max

      Cave, George

      Gastrell, Major W. Houghton

      Amery, L. C. M. S.

      Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

      Gibbs, George Abraham

      Anson, Rt. Hon. Sir William R.

      Cecil, Lord R. (Herts, Hitchin)

      Goldman, C. S.

      Archer-Shee, Major Martin

      Chaloner, Col. R. G. W.

      Goldsmith, Frank

      Ashley, Wilfrid W.

      Chambers, James

      Gordon, John (Londonderry, South)

      Astor, Waldorf

      Clay, Captain H. H. Spender

      Gordon, Hon. John Edward (Brighton)

      Baird, John Lawrence

      Clive, Captain Percy Archer

      Goulding, Edward, Alfred

      Balcarres, Lord

      Clyde, J. Avon

      Greene, Walter Raymond

      Baldwin, Stanley

      Coates, Major Sir Edward Feetham

      Gretton, John

      Banbury, Sir Frederick George

      Cooper, Richard Ashmole

      Guinness, Hon. Rupert (Essex, S.E.)

      Barnston, Harry

      Courthope, George Loyd

      Guinness, Hon. W. E. (Bury S. Edmunds)

      Barrie, H. T.

      Craig, Charles Curtis (Antrim, S.)

      Gwynne, R. S. (Eastbourne)

      Bathurst, Charles (Wilts, Wilton)

      Craig, Ernest (Cheshire, Crewe)

      Haddock, George Bahr

      Beach, Hon. Michael Hugh Hicks

      Craig, Captain James (Down, E.)

      Hall, D. B. (Isle of Wight)

      Beckett, Hon. Gervase

      Craig, Norman (Kent, Thanet)

      Hall, Fred (Dulwich)

      Benn, Arthur Shirley (Plymouth)

      Craik, Sir Henry

      Hall, Marshall (E. Toxteth)

      Bentinck, Lord Henry Cavendish-

      Crichton-Stuart, Lord Ninian

      Hamersley, Alfred St. George

      Beresford, Lord Charles

      Cripps, Sir Charles Alfred

      Hamilton, Lord C. J. (Kensington, S.)

      Bigland, Alfred

      Croft, Henry Page

      Hamilton, Marquess of (Londonderry)

      Bird, Alfred

      Dalziel, D. (Brixton)

      Hardy, Rt. Hon. Laurence

      Boles, Lieut.-Col. Dennis Fortescue

      Denniss, E. R. B.

      Harris, Henry Percy

      Boscawen, Sir Arthur S. T. Griffith-

      Dickson, Rt. Hon. C. Scott

      Harrison-Broadley, H. B.

      Boyle, William (Norfolk, Mid)

      Dixon, Charles Harvey

      Helmsley, Viscount

      Boyton, J.

      Doughty, Sir George

      Henderson, Major H. (Berks, Abingdon)

      Bridgeman, W. Clive

      Duke, Henry Edward

      Herbert, Hon. A. (Somerset, S.)

      Bull, Sir William James

      Eyres-Monsell, Bolton M.

      Hewins, William Albert Samuel

      Burn, Colonel C. R.

      Faber, George Denison (Clapham)

      Hickman Col. Thomas E.

      Butcher, John George

      Fell, Arthur

      Hill, Sir Clement L.

      Campbell, Capt. Duncan F. (Ayr, N.)

      Fetherstonhaugh, Godfrey

      Hills, John Waller

      Campbell, Rt. Hon. J. (Dublin Univ.)

      Finlay, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert

      Hill-Wood, Samuel

      Campion, W. R.

      Fisher, Rt. Hon. W. Hayes

      Heare, S. J. G.

      Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward H.

      Fleming, Valentine

      Hohler, G. F.

      1184

      1185

      Hope, Harry (Bute)

      Mills, Hon. Charles Thomas

      Stanley, Hon. G. F. (Preston)

      Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield)

      Moore, William

      Starkey, John Ralph

      Hope, Major J. A. (Midlothian)

      Morrison-Bell, Capt. E. F. (Ashburton)

      Staveley-Hill, Henry

      Horne, Wm. E. (Surrey, Guildford)

      Mount, William Arthur

      Steel-Maitland, A. D.

      Horner, Andrew Long

      Neville, Reginald J. N.

      Stewart, Gershom

      Houston, Robert Paterson

      Newdegate, F. A.

      Strauss, Arthur (Paddington, N.)

      Hume-Williams, William Ellis

      Newman, John R. P.

      Swift, Rigby

      Hunt, Rowland

      Newton, Harry Kottingham

      Sykes, Alan John (Ches., Knutsford)

      Hunter, Sir Charles Rodk

      Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield)

      Sykes, Mark (Hull, Central)

      Ingleby, Holcombe

      Nield, Herbert

      Talbot, Lord Edmund

      Jardine, Ernest (Somerset, S.)

      Norton-Griffiths, J.

      Terrell, George (Wilts, N.W.)

      Jessel, Capt. H. M.

      O'Neill, Hon. A. E. B. (Antrim, Mid)

      Terrell, Henry (Gloucester)

      Joynson-Hicks, William

      Orde-Powlett, W. G. A.

      Thomson, W. Mitchell- (Down, North)

      Kebty-Fletcher, J. R.

      Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William

      Thynne, Lord Alexander

      Kerr-Smiley, Peter Kerr

      Parker, Sir Gilbert (Gravesend)

      Tobin, Alfred Aspinall

      Kerry, Earl of

      Parkes, Ebenezer

      Touche, George Alexander

      Kimber, Sir Henry

      Pease, Herbert (Pike (Darlington)

      Tryon, Captain George Clement

      Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement

      Peto, Basil Edward

      Tullibardine, Marquess of

      Lane-Fox, G. R.

      Pole-Carew, Sir R.

      Valentia, Viscount

      Larmor, Sir J.

      Pollock, Ernest Murray

      Walrond, Hon. Lionel

      Law, Rt. Hon. A. Bonar (Bootle)

      Pryce-Jones, Col. Edward

      Ward, A. S. (Herts, Watford)

      Lawson, Hon. H. (T. H'mts., Mile End

      Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel

      Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid)

      Lewisham, Viscount

      Remnant, James F.

      Wheler, Granville C. H.

      Lloyd, G. A.

      Roberts, s. (Sheffield, Ecclesall)

      White, Major G. D. (Lancs., Southport)

      Locker-Lampson, G. (Salisbury)

      Rolleston, Sir John

      Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.)

      Locker-Lampson, O. (Ramsey)

      Ronaldshay, Earl of

      Wills, Sir Gilbert

      Lockwood, Rt. Hon. Lt.-Col. A. R.

      Rothschild, Lionel de

      Winterton, Earl

      Long, Rt. Hon. Walter

      Rutherford, John (Lancs., Darwen)

      Wolmer, Viscount

      Lonsdale, Sir John Brownlee

      Rutherford, W. (Liverpool, W. Derby)

      Wood, Hon. E. F. L. (Yorks, Ripon)

      Lowe, Sir F. W. (Birm., Edgbaston)

      Salter, Arthur Clavell

      Wood, John (Stalybridge)

      Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. A. (S. Geo., Han. S.)

      Samuel, Sir Harry (Norwood)

      Worthington-Evans, L.

      Lyttelton, Hon. J. C. (Droitwich)

      Sanders, Robert Arthur

      Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-

      MacCaw, Wm. J. MacGeagh

      Sanderson, Lancelot

      Wright, Henry Fitzherbert

      Mackinder, Halford J.

      Sassoon, Sir Philip

      Yate, Col. C. E.

      Macmaster, Donald

      Scott, Leslie (Liverpol, Exchange)

      Yerburgh, Robert A

      M'Neill, Ronald (Kent, St. Augustine's)

      Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

      Younger, Sir George

      Magnus, Sir Philip

      Smith, Rt. Hon. F. E. (L'pl., Walton)

      Meysey-Thompson, E. C.

      Smith, Harold (Warrington)

      TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Sir

      Middlemore, John Throgmorton

      Spear, Sir John Ward

      H. Carlile and Mr. E. Gardner.

      Mildmay, Francis Bingham

      Stanier, Beville

      CLAUSE 18.—(Charge on Transferred Sum of Sums Charged on the Guarantee Fund.)
      The charge on the Guarantee Fund under the Irish Land Purchase Acts in respect of—

      (1) sums which owing to the deficiency of the Irish Land Purchase Account, are paid out of the Consolidated Fund on account of the dividends and sinking fund payments of Irish Guaranteed Land Stock under Section one of the Purchase of Land (Ireland) Act, 1891; and

      (2) sums which, owing to the deficiency of the income of the Irish Land Purchase Fund, are paid out of the Consolidated Fund on account of the dividends on stock under Section twenty-nine of the Irish Land Act, 1903;

      (3) arrears of annual payments under Sub-section (4) of Section thirty-six of the Irish Land Act, 1903;

      shall cease, and any such sums or arrears which would under the Irish Land Purchase Acts have been made good out of the Guarantee Fund, shall be made good by means of deductions from the Transferred Sum under this Act in accordance with regulations made by the Treasury.
      Government Amendment: In Sub-section (3), after the word "fund" ["out of the Guarantee Fund"] insert the words—
      "(not being sums or arrears on account of a deficiency in respect of the issue of stock, or bills, or bonds, at a discount or in respect of interest or sinking fund which, under Section 7 of the Irish Land Act, 1909, are a charge on that portion of the Ireland Development Grant which forms part of the cash portion of the Guarantee Fund.)"—[Mr. Herbert Samuel.]
      Question put, "'That the Amendment be made."
      The Committee divided: Ayes, 321; Noes, 217.

      Division No. 341.]

      AYES.

      [11.0 p.m.

      Abraham, William (Dublin, Harbour)

      Addison, Dr. Christopher

      Allen, Arthur A. (Dumbartonshire)

      Abraham, Rt. Hon. William (Rhondda)

      Adkins, Sir W. Ryland D.

      Allen, Rt. Hon. Charles P. (Stroud)

      Acland, Francis Dyke

      Agnew, Sir George William

      Arnold, Sydney

      Adamson, William

      Ainsworth, John Stirling

      Asquith, Rt. Hon. Herbert Henry

      Baker, H. T. (Accrington)

      Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford

      Masterman, Rt. Hon. C. F. G.

      Baker, Joseph A. (Finsbury, E.)

      Greenwood, Granville G. (Peterborough)

      Meagher, Michael

      Balfour, Sir Robert (Lanark)

      Greenwood, Hamar (Sunderland)

      Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.)

      Baring, Sir Godfrey (Barnstaple)

      Griffith, Ellis J.

      Menzies, Sir Walter

      Barlow, Sir John Emmott (Somerset)

      Guest, Major Hon. C. H. C. (Pembroke)

      Millar, James Duncan

      Barnes, G. N.

      Gulland, John William

      Molloy, Michael

      Barran, Sir John N. (Hawick)

      Gwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway)

      Molteno, Percy Alport

      Barran, Rowland Hurst (Leeds, N.)

      Hackett, John

      Money, L. G. Chiozza

      Barton, William

      Hall, Frederick (Normanton)

      Mooney, John J.

      Beauchamp, Sir Edward

      Hancock, J. G.

      Morgan, George Hay

      Beck, Arthur Cecil

      Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Lewis (Rossendale)

      Morrell, Philip

      Benn, W. W. (T. H'mts., St. George)

      Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose)

      Morison, Hector

      Bentham, G. J.

      Harmsworth, R. L. (Caithness-shire)

      Morton, Alpheus Cleophas

      Bethell, Sir J. H.

      Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale)

      Muldoon, John

      Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine

      Harvey, T. E. Leeds, West)

      Munro-Ferguson, Rt. Hon. R. C.

      Black, Arthur W.

      Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N. E.)

      Murray, Captain Hon. Arthur C.

      Boland, John Plus

      Haslam, James (Derbyshire)

      Nannetti, Joseph P.

      Booth, Frederick Handel

      Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth)

      Needham, Christopher T.

      Bowerman, C. W.

      Havelock-Alian, Sir Henry

      Neilson, Francis

      Boyle, Daniel (Mayo, North)

      Hayden, John Patrick

      Nicholson, Sir Charles N. (Doncaster)

      Brace, William

      Hayward, Evan

      Nolan, Joseph

      Brady, Patrick Joseph

      Hazleton, Richard

      Norton, Captain Cecil W.

      Brocklehurst, W. B.

      Helme, Sir Norval Watson

      Nugent, Sir Walter Richard

      Bryce, J. Annan

      Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

      Nuttall, Harry

      Buckmaster, Stanley O.

      Henry, Sir Charles

      O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

      Burke, E. Haviland-

      Herbert, Col. Sir Ivor (Mon., S.)

      O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)

      Burns, Rt. Hon. John

      Higham, John Sharp

      O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)

      Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas

      Hinds, John

      O'Doherty, Philip

      Buxton, Rt. Hon. Sydney C. (Poplar)

      Hobhouse, Rt. Hon. Charles E. H.

      O'Donnell, Thomas

      Byles, Sir William Pollard

      Hodge, John

      Ogden, Fred

      Carr-Gomm, H. W.

      Hogge, James Myles

      O'Grady, James

      Cawley, Sir Frederick (Prestwich)

      Holmes, Daniel Turner

      O'Kelly, Edward P. (Wicklow, W.)

      Cawley, Harold T. (Heywood)

      Holt, Richard Durning

      O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N.)

      Chancellor, Henry George

      Hope, John Deans (Haddington)

      O'Malley, William

      Chapple, Dr. William Allen

      Horne, Charles Silvester (Ipswich)

      O'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, S.)

      Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston S.

      Hudson, Walter

      O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

      Clancy, John Joseph

      Hughes, S. L.

      O Shee, James John

      Clough, William

      Illingworth, Percy H.

      O'Sullivan, Timothy

      Clynes, John R.

      Isaacs, Rt. Hon. Sir Rufus

      Outhwaite, R. L.

      Compton-Rickett, Rt. Hon. Sir J.

      Jardine, Sir J. (Roxburgh)

      Palmer, Godfrey Mark

      Condon, Thomas Joseph

      John, Edward Thomas

      Parker, James (Halifax)

      Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.

      Jones, Edgar (Merthyr Tydvil)

      Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek)

      Cotton, William Francis

      Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)

      Pearce, William (Limehouse)

      Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth)

      Jones, J. Towyn (Carmarthen, East)

      Pease, Rt. Hon. Joseph A. (Rotherham)

      Crawshay-Williams, Eliot

      Jones, Leif Stratten (Notts, Rushcliffe)

      Phillips, Col. Ivor (Southampton)

      Crooks, William

      Jones, William (Carnarvonshire)

      Phillips, John (Longford, S.)

      Crumley, Patrick

      Jones, W. S. Glyn- (Stepney)

      Pirie, Duncan Vernon

      Cullinan, John

      Joyce, Michael

      Pointer, Joseph

      Dalziel, Rt. Hon. Sir J. H. (Kirkcaldy)

      Keating, Matthew

      Pollard, Sir George H.

      Davies, Ellis William (Eifion)

      Kellaway, Frederick George

      Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H.

      Davies, Timothy (Lincs., Louth)

      Kennedy, Vincent Paul

      Power, Patrick Joseph

      Daves, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.)

      Kilbride, Denis

      Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central)

      Dawes, J. A.

      King, J.

      Price, Sir Robert J. (Norfolk, E.)

      De Forest, Baron

      Lambert, Rt. Hon. G. (Devon, S. Molton)

      Priestley, Sir Arthur (Grantham)

      Delany, William

      Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade)

      Priestley, Sir W. E. B. (Bradford, E.)

      Denman, Hon. Richard Douglas

      Lardner, James Carrige Rushe

      Primrose, Hon. Neil James

      Devlin, Joseph

      Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, W.)

      Pringle, William M. R.

      Dickinson, W. H.

      Lawson, Sir W. (Cumb'rld, Cockerm'th)

      Radford, G. H.

      Dillon, John

      Leach, Charles

      Raffan, Peter Wilson

      Donelan, Captain A.

      Levy, Sir Maurice

      Raphael, Sir Herbert H.

      Doris, William

      Lewis, John Herbert

      Rea, Rt. Hon. Russell (South Shields)

      Duffy, William J.

      Lough, Rt. Hon. Thomas

      Rea, Walter Russell (Scarborough)

      Duncan, J. Hastings (Yorks, Otley)

      Low, Sir F. (Norwich)

      Reddy, Michael

      Edwards, Clement (Glamorgan, E.)

      Lundon, Thomas

      Redmond, John E. (Waterford)

      Edwards, Sir Francis (Radnor)

      Lyell, Charles Henry

      Redmond, William (Clare, E.)

      Edwards, John Hugh (Glamorgan, Mid.)

      Lynch, A. A.

      Redmond, William Archer (Tyrone, E.)

      Elverston, Sir Harold

      Macdonald, J. Ramsay (Leicester)

      Rendall, Athelstan

      Esmonde, Dr. John (Tipperary, N.)

      Macdonald. J. M. (Falkirk Burghs)

      Richardson, Albion (Peckham)

      Esmonde, Sir Thomas (Wexford, N.)

      McGhee, Richard

      Richardson, Thomas (Whitehaven)

      Essex, Richard Walter

      Macnamara, Rt. Hon. Dr. T. J.

      Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)

      Esslemont, George Birnie

      MacNeill, J. G. Swift (Donegal, South)

      Roberts, Sir J. H. (Denbighs)

      Falconer, James

      Macpherson, James Ian

      Robertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradford)

      Farrell, James Patrick

      MacVeagh, Jeremiah

      Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside)

      Fenwick, Rt. Hon. Charles

      M'Callum, Sir John M.

      Robinson, Sidney

      Ffrench, Peter

      M'Curdy, C. A.

      Roch, Walter F. (Pembroke)

      Field, William

      M'Kean, John

      Roche, Augustine (Louth)

      Fiennes, Hon. Eustace Edward

      McKenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald

      Roche, John (Galway, E.)

      Fitzgibbon, John

      M'Laren, Hon. H. D. (Leics.)

      Roe, Sir Thomas

      Flavin, Michael Joseph

      M'Laren, Hon. F. W. S. (Lincs, Spalding)

      Rowlands, James

      George, Rt. Hon. D. Lloyd

      M'Micking, Major Gilbert

      Rowntree, Arnold

      Gill, A. H.

      Manfield, Harry

      Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter

      Ginnell, Laurence

      Marks, Sir George Croydon

      Russell, Rt. Hon. Thomas W.

      Gladstone, W. G. C.

      Martin, Joseph

      Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland)

      Glanville, H. J.

      Mason, David M. (Coventry)

      Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees)

      1188

      1189

      Scanlan, Thomas

      Tennant, Harold John

      White, Patrick (Meath, North)

      Schwann, Rt. Hon. Sir C. E.

      Thomas, J. H.

      Whitehouse, John Howard

      Scott, A. MacCallum (Glas., Bridgeton)

      Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton)

      Whittaker, Rt. Hon. Sir Thomas P.

      Scely, Col. Rt. Hon. J. E. B.

      Thorne, William (West Ham)

      Whyte, A. F. (Perth)

      Sheehy, David

      Toulmin, Sir George

      Wiles, Thomas

      Sherwell, Arthur James

      Trevelyan, Charles Philips

      Wilkie, Alexander

      Shortt, Edward

      Ure, Rt. Hon. Alexander

      Williams, J. (Glamorgan)

      Simon, Sir John Allsebrook

      Verney, Sir Harry

      Williams, Llewelyn (Carmarthen)

      Smith, Albert (Lancs, Clitheroe)

      Wadsworth, John

      Williams, P. (Middlesbrough)

      Smith, H. B. Lees (Northampton)

      Walsh, Stephen (Lancs, Ince)

      Wilson, Hon. G. G. (Hull, W.)

      Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.)

      Walton, Sir Joseph

      Wilson, Rt. Hon. J. W. (Worcs., N.)

      Snowden, Philip

      Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent)

      Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)

      Soames, Arthur Wellesley

      Wardle, George J.

      Winfrey, Richard

      Spicer, Rt. Hon. Sir Albert

      Waring, Walter

      Wood, Rt. Hon. T. McKinnon (Glas.)

      Stanley, Albert (Staffs, N. W.)

      Warner, Sir Thomas Courtenay

      Young, Samuel (Cavan, East)

      Strauss, Edward A. (Southwark, West)

      Wason, Rt. Hon. E. (Clackmannan)

      Young, William (Perthshire, E.)

      Sutherland, John E.

      Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney)

      Yoxall, Sir James Henry

      Sutton, John E.

      Webb, H.

      Taylor, John W. (Durham)

      Wedgwood, Josiah C.

      TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr.

      Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)

      White, J. Dundas (Glasgow, Tradeston)

      G. Howard and Captain Guest.

      NOES.

      Agar-Robartes, Hon, T. C. R.

      Doughty, Sir George

      Kimber, Sir Henry

      Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

      Duke, Henry Edward

      Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement

      Aitken, Sir William Max

      Eyres-Monsell, Bolton M.

      Lane-Fox, G. R.

      Amery, L. C. M. S.

      Faber, George Denison (Clapham)

      Larmor, Sir J.

      Anson, Rt. Hon. Sir William R.

      Fell, Arthur

      Law, Rt. Hon. A. Bonar (Bootle)

      Archer-Shee, Major M.

      Fetherstonhaugh, Godfrey

      Lawson, Hon. H. (T. H'mts., Mile End)

      Ashley, Wilfrid

      Finlay, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert

      Lewisham, Viscount

      Astor, Waldorf

      Fisher, Rt. Hon. W. Hayes

      Lloyd, G. A.

      Baird, John Lawrence

      Fleming, Valentine

      Locker-Lampson, G. (Salisbury)

      Balcarres, Lord

      Forster, Henry William

      Locker-Lampson, O. (Ramsey)

      Baldwin, Stanley

      Foster, Philip Staveley

      Lockwood, Rt. Hon. Lt.-Col. A. R.

      Banbury, Sir Frederick George

      Gardner, Ernest

      Long, Rt. Hon. Walter

      Barnston, Harry

      Gastrell, Major W.

      Lonsdale, Sir John Brownlee

      Barrie, H. T.

      Gibbs, George Abraham

      Lowe, Sir F. W. (Birm., Edgbaston)

      Bathurst, Charles (Wilts, Wilton)

      Goldman, C. S.

      Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. A. (S. Geo. Han. S.)

      Beach, Hon. Michael Hugh Hicks

      Goldsmith, Frank

      Lyttelton, Hon. J. C. (Droitwich)

      Beckett, Hon. Gervase

      Gordon, John (Londonderry, South)

      MacCaw, Win. J. McGeagh

      Benn, Arthur Shirley (Plymouth)

      Gordon, Hon. John Edward (Brighton)

      Mackinder, Halford J.

      Bentinck, Lord Henry Cavendish-

      Coulding, Edward Alfred

      Macmaster, Donald

      Beresford, Lord Charles

      Greene, Walter Raymond

      McNeill, Ronald (Kent, St. Augustine's)

      Bigland, Alfred

      Gretton, John

      Magnus, Sir Philip

      Bird, Alfred

      Guinness, Hon. Rupert (Essex, S. E.)

      Meysey-Thompson, E. C.

      Boles, Lieut.-Col. Dennis Fortescue

      Guinness, Hon. W. E. (Bury S. Edmunds)

      Middlemore, John Throgmorten

      Boscawen, Sir Arthur S. T. Griffith-

      Gwynne, R. S. (Sussex, Eastbourne)

      Mildmay, Francis Bingham

      Boyle, William (Norfolk, Mid)

      Haddock, George Bahr

      Mills, Hon. Charles Thomas

      Boyton, James

      Hall, D. B. (Isle of Wight)

      Moore, William

      Bridgeman, W. Clive

      Hall, Fred (Dulwich)

      Morrison-Bell, Capt. E. F. (Athburton)

      Bull, Sir William James

      Hall, Marshall (E. Toxteth)

      Mount, William Arthur

      Burn, Colonel C. R.

      Hamersley, Alfred St. George

      Neville, Reginald J. N.

      Butcher, John George

      Hamilton, Lord C. J. (Kensington, S.)

      Newdegate, F. A.

      Campbell, Capt. Duncan F. (Ayr, N.)

      Hamilton, Marquess of (Londonderry)

      Newton, Harry Kottingham

      Campbell, Rt. Hon. J. (Dublin Univ.)

      Hardy, Rt. Hon. Laurence

      Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield)

      Campion, W. R.

      Harris, Henry Percy

      Nield, Herbert

      Carlile, Sir Edward Hildred

      Harrison-Broadley, H. B.

      Norton-Griffiths, J.

      Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward H.

      Helmsley, Viscount

      O'Neill, Hon. A. E. B. (Antrim, Mid)

      Cassel, Felix

      Henderson, Major H. (Berkshire)

      Orde-Powlett, Hon. W. G. A.

      Castlereagh, Viscount

      Herbert, Hon A. (Somerset, S.)

      Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William

      Cave, George

      Hewins, William Albert Samuel

      Parker, Sir Gilbert (Gravesend)

      Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

      Hickman, Col. Thomas E.

      Parkes, Ebenezer

      Cecil, Lord R. (Herts, Hitchin)

      Hill, Sir Clement L.

      Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington)

      Chaloner, Col. R. G. W.

      Hills, John Waller

      Peto, Basil Edward

      Chambers, James

      Hill-Wood, Samuel

      Pole-Carew, Sir R.

      Clay, Captain H. H. Spender

      Hoare, S. J. G.

      Pollock, Ernest Murray

      Clive, Captain Percy Archer

      Hohler, Gerald Fitzroy

      Pryce-Jones, Col. E. (M'tgomy B'ghe)

      Clyde, J. Avon

      Hope, Harry (Bute)

      Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel

      Coates, Major Sir Edward Feetham

      Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield)

      Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall)

      Cooper, Richard Ashmole

      Hope, Major A. (Midlothian)

      Rolleston, Sir John

      Courthope, George Loyd

      Horne, E. (Surrey, Guildford)

      Ronaldshay, Earl of

      Craig, Charles Curtis (Antrim, S.)

      Horner, Andrew Long

      Rothschild, Lionel de

      Craig, Ernest (Cheshire, Crewe)

      Houston, Robert Paterson

      Rutherford, John (Lancs., Darwen)

      Craig, Captain James (Down, E.)

      Hume-Williams, W. E.

      Rutherford, Watson (L'pool, W. Derby}

      Craig, Norman (Kent, Thanet)

      Hunt, Rowland

      Salter, Arthur Clavell

      Craik, Sir Henry

      Hunter, Sir Charles Rodk.

      Samuel, Sir Harry (Norwood)

      Crichton-Stuart, Lord Ninian

      Ingleby, Holcomhe

      Sanders, Robert Arthur

      Cripps, Sir Charles Alfred

      Jardine, Ernest (Somerset, E.)

      Sanderson, Lancelot

      Croft, H. P.

      Jessel, Caotain H. M.

      Sassoon, Sir Philip

      Dalziel, Davison (Brixton)

      Joynson-Hicks, William

      Scott, Leslie (Liverpool, Exchange)

      Denniss, E. R. B.

      Kebty-Fletcher, J. R.

      Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

      Dickson, Rt. Hon. C. Scott

      Kerr-Smiley, Peter Kerr

      Smith, Rt. Hon. F. E. (L'p'l, Walton)

      Dixon, C. H.

      Kerry, Earl of

      Smith, Harold (Warrington)

      1190

      1191

      Spear, Sir John Ward

      Thomson, W. Mitchell-(Down, N.)

      Wolmer, Viscount

      Stanler, Beville

      Thynne, Lord A.

      Wood, Hon. E. F. L. (Yorks, Ripon)

      Stanley, Hon. G. F. (Preston)

      Tobin, Alfred Aspinall

      Wood, John (Stalybridge)

      Starkey, John Ralph

      Touche, George Alexander

      Worthington-Evans, L.

      Staveley-Hill, Henry

      Tullibardine, Marquess of

      Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-

      Steel-Maitland, A. D.

      Valentia, Viscount

      Wright, Henry Fitzherbert

      Stewart, Gershom

      Walrond, Hon. Lionel

      Yate, Col. C. E.

      Strauss, Arthur (Paddington, North)

      Ward, A. S. (Herts, Watford)

      Yerburgh, Robert A.

      Swift, Rigby

      Wards, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid)

      Younger, Sir George

      Sykes, Alan John (Ches., Knutsford)

      Wheler, Granville C. H.

      Sykes, Mark (Hull, Central)

      White, Major G. D. (Lancs., Southport)

      Talbot, Lord E.

      Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset, W.)

      TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr.

      Terrell, George (Wilts, N. W.)

      Wills, Sir Gilbert

      Remnant and Captain Tryon.

      Terrell, Henry (Gloucester)

      Winterton, Earl

      Government Amendment: At the end of the Clause add the following new Sub-section:—
      "(2) In determining the amount representing the net cost to the Exchequer of the United Kingdom at the time of the passing of this Act of Irish services, the Joint Exchequer Board shall treat the whole of the Death Duty Grant payable under Section nineteen of the Finance Act, 1894, and of the Exchequer contribution payable under Section five of the Purchase of Land (Ireland) Act, 1891,
      and of the Agricultural Grant payable under the Local Government (Ireland) Act, 1898, as part of that cost, without taking into account any diminution of those Grants owing to their being included in the Guarantee Fund."—[Mr. Herbert Samuel.]
      Question put, "That the Amendment be made."
      The Committee divided: Ayes, 318; Noes, 207.

      Division No. 342.]

      AYES.

      [11.15 p.m.

      Abraham, William (Dublin, Harbour)

      Chapple, Dr William Allen

      George, Rt. Hon D. Lloyd

      Abraham, Rt. Hon. William (Rhondda)

      Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston S.

      Gill, Alfred Henry

      Acland, Francis Dyke

      Clancy, John Joseph

      Ginnell, Laurence

      Adamson, William

      Clough, William

      Gladstone, W. G. C.

      Addison, Dr Christopher

      Clynes, John R.

      Glanville, Harold James

      Adkins, Sir W. Ryland D.

      Collins, Godfrey P. (Greenock)

      Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford

      Agnew, Sir George William

      Compton-Rickett, Rt. Hon. Sir J.

      Greenwood, Granville G. (Peterborough)

      Ainsworth, John Stirling

      Condon, Thomas Joseph

      Greenwood, Hamar (Sunderland)

      Allen, A. A. (Dumbartonshire)

      Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.

      Griffith, Ellis Jones

      Allen, Rt. Hon. Charles P (Stroud)

      Cotton, William Francis

      Guest, Major Hon. C. H. C. (Pembroke)

      Arnold, Sydney

      Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth)

      Gulland, John William

      Asquith, Rt. Hon. Herbert Henry

      Crawshay-Williams, Eliot

      Gwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway)

      Baker, H. T. (Accrington)

      Crooks, William

      Hackett, John

      Baker, Joseph Allen (Finsbury, E.)

      Crumley, Patrick

      Hall, Frederick (Normanton)

      Balfour, Sir Robert (Lanark)

      Cullinan, John

      Hancock John George

      Baring, Sir Godfrey (Barnstaple)

      Dalziel, Rt. Hon. Sir J. H. (Kirkcaldy)

      Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Lewis (Rossendale)

      Barlow, Sir John Emmott (Somerset)

      Davies, Ellis William (Eiffon)

      Harcourt Robert V. (Montrose)

      Barnes, George N.

      Davies, Timothy (Lincs., Louth)

      Harmsworth R L (Caithness-shire)

      Barran, Sir John N. (Hawick B.)

      Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.)

      Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale)

      Barran, Rowland Hurst (Leeds, N.)

      Dawes, James Arthur

      Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, West)

      Barton, William

      De Forest, Baron

      Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N. E.)

      Beauchamp, Sir Edward

      Delany, William

      Haslam, James (Derbyshire)

      Beck, Arthur Cecil

      Denman, Hon Richard Douglas

      Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth)

      Benn, W. W. (T. Hamlets, St. Geo)

      Devlin, Joseph

      Havelock-Allan, Sir Henry

      Bentham, George Jackson

      Dickinson, W. H.

      Hayden, John Patrick

      Bethell, Sir John Henry

      Dillon John

      Hayward Evan

      Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine

      Donelan, Captain A.

      Hazleton, Richard

      Black, Arthur W.

      Doris, William

      Helme, Sir Norval Watson

      Boland, John Pius

      Duffy, William J.

      Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

      Booth, Frederick Handel

      Duncan, J. Hastings (Yorks, Otley)

      Henry, Sir Charles

      Bowerman, C. W.

      Edwards, Clement (Glamorgan, E.)

      Herbert, Col. Sir Ivor (Mon. S.)

      Boyle, Daniel (Mayo, North)

      Edwards, Sir Francis (Radnor)

      Higham, John Sharp

      Brace, William

      Edwards, John Hugh (Glamorgan, Mid)

      Hinds, John

      Brady, Patrick Joseph

      Elverston, Sir Harold

      Hobhouse, Rt. Hon. Charles E. H.

      Brocklehurst, W. B.

      Esmonde, Dr. John (Tipperary, N.)

      Hodge, John

      Bryce, John Annan

      Esmonde, Sir Thomas (Wexford, N.)

      Hogge, James Myles

      Buckmaster, Stanley O.

      Essex, Richard Walter

      Holmes, Daniel Turner

      Burke, E. Haviland-

      Esslemont, George Birnie

      Holt, Richard Durning

      Burns, Rt. Hon. John

      Falconer, James

      Hope, John Deans (Haddington)

      Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas

      Farrell, James Patrick

      Horne, Charles Silvester (Ipswich)

      Buxton, Rt. Hon S. C. (Poplar)

      Fenwick, Rt. Hon. Charles

      Hudson, Waiter

      Byles, Sir William Pollard

      Ffrench, Peter

      Hughes, Spencer Leigh

      Carr-Gomm, H. W.

      Field, William

      Illingworth, Percy H.

      Cawley, Sir Frederick (Prestwich)

      Fiennes, Hon. Eustace Edward

      Isaacs, Rt. Hon. Sir Rufus

      Cawley, H. T. (Heywood)

      Fitzgibbon John

      John, Edward Thomas

      Chancellor, Henry George

      Flavin, Michael Joseph

      Jones, Edgar R. (Merthyr Tydvil)

      Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)

      Nicholson, Sir Charles N. (Doncaster)

      Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland)

      Jones, J. Towyn (Carmarthen, East)

      Nolan, Joseph

      Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees)

      Jones, Leif Stratten (Notts, Rushcliffe)

      Norton, Captain Cecil W.

      Scanlan, Thomas

      Jones, William (Carnarvonshire)

      Nugent, Sir Walter Richard

      Schwann, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles E.

      Jones, W. S. Glyn-(T. H'mts, Stepney)

      Nuttall, Harry

      Scott, A. MacCallum (Glas., Bridgeton)

      Joyce, Michael

      O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

      Seely, Col. Rt. Hon. J. E. B.

      Keating, Matthew

      O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)

      Sheehy, David

      Kellaway, Frederick George

      O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)

      Sherwell, Arthur James

      Kennedy, Vincent Paul

      O'Doherty, Philip

      Shortt, Edward

      Kilbride, Denis

      O'Donnell, Thomas

      Simon, Sir John Allsebrcok

      King, Joseph

      Ogden, Fred

      Smith, Albert (Lancs., Clitheroe)

      Lambert, Rt. Hon. G. (Devon, S. Molten)

      O'Grady, James

      Smith, H. B. Lees (Northampton)

      Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade)

      O'Kelly, Edward P. (Wicklow, W.)

      Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.)

      Lardner, James Carrige Rushe

      O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N.)

      Snowden, Philip

      Law, Hugh A (Donegal, West)

      O'Malley, William

      Soames, Arthur Wellesley

      Lawson, Sir W. (Cumb'rld, Cockerm'th)

      O'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, S.)

      Spicer, Rt. Hon. Sir Albert

      Leach, Charles

      O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

      Stanley, Albert (Staffs, N.W.)

      Levy, Sir Maurice

      O'Shee, James John

      Strauss, Edward A. (Southwark, West)

      Lewis, John Herbert

      O'Sullivan, Timothy

      Sutherland, John E.

      Lough, Rt. Hon. Thomas

      Outhwaite, R. L.

      Sutton, John E.

      Low, Sir F. (Norwich)

      Palmer, Godfrey Mark

      Taylor, John W. (Durham)

      Lundon, Thomas

      Parker, James (Halifax)

      Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)

      Lyell, Charles Henry

      Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek)

      Tennant, Harold John

      Lynch, Arthur Alfred

      Pearce, William (Limehouse)

      Thomas, James Henry

      Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester)

      Pease, Rt. Hon. Joseph A. (Rotharham)

      Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton)

      Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk Burghs)

      Philipps, Col. Ivor (Southampton)

      Thorne, William (West Ham)

      McGhee, Richard

      Phillips, John (Longford, S.)

      Toulmin, Sir George

      Macnamara, Rt. Hon. Dr. T. J.

      Pirie, Duncan V.

      Treveyan, Charles Philips

      MacNeill, J. G. Swift (Donegal, South)

      Pointer, Joseph

      Ure, Rt. Hon. Alexander

      Macpherson, James Ian

      Pollard, Sir George H.

      Verney, Sir Harry

      MacVeagh, Jeremiah

      Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H.

      Wadsworth, John

      M'Callum, Sir John M.

      Power, Patrick Joseph

      Walsh, Stephen (Lancs., Ince)

      M'Curdy, Charles Albert

      Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central)

      Walton, Sir Joseph

      M'Kean, John

      Price, Sir Robert J. (Norfolk, E.)

      Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent)

      McKenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald

      Priestley, Sir Arthur (Grantham)

      Waring, Walter

      M'Laren, Hon. H. D. (Leics.)

      Primrose, Hon. Neil James

      Warner, Sir Thomas Courtenay

      M'Laren, F. W. S. (Lincs., Spalding)

      Pringle, William M. R.

      Wason, Rt. Hon. E. (Clackmannan)

      M'Micking Major Gilbert

      Radford, George Haynes

      Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney)

      Manfield, Harry

      Raffan, Peter Wilson

      Webb, H.

      Marks, Sir George Croydon

      Rea, Rt. Hon. Russell (South Shields)

      Wedgwood, Josiah C.

      Martin, Joseph

      Rea, Walter Russell (Scarborough)

      White, J. Dundas (Glas., Tradeston)

      Mason, David M. (Coventry)

      Reddy, Michael

      White, Patrick (Meath, North)

      Masterman, Rt. Hon. C. F. G.

      Redmond, John E. (Waterford)

      Whitehouse, John Howard

      Meagher, Michael

      Redmond, William (Clare, E.)

      Whittaker, Rt. Hon. Sir Thomas P.

      Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.)

      Redmond, William Archer (Tyrone, E.)

      Whyte, A. F. (Perth)

      Menzies, Sir Walter

      Rendall, Athelstan

      Wiles, Thomas

      Millar, James Duncan

      Richardson, Albion (Peckham)

      Wilkie, Alexander

      Molloy, Michael

      Richardson, Thomas (Whitehaven)

      Williams, John (Glamorgan)

      Molteno, Percy Alport

      Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)

      Williams, Llewelyn (Carmarthen)

      Money, L. G. Chiozza

      Roberts, Sir J. H. (Denbighs)

      Williams, Penry (Middlesbrough)

      Mooney, John J.

      Robertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradford)

      Wilson, Hon. G. G. (Hull, W.)

      Morgan, George Hay

      Robertson, John M. (Tyneside)

      Wilson, Rt. Hon. J. W. (Worcs, N.)

      Morrell, Philip

      Robinson, Sidney

      Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)

      Morison, Hector

      Roch, Walter F. (Pembroke)

      Winfrey, Richard

      Morton, Alpheus Cleophas

      Roche, Augustine (Louth)

      Wood, Rt. Hon. T. McKinnon (Glasgow)

      Muldoon, John

      Roche, John (Galway, E.)

      Young, Samuel (Cavan, East)

      Murray, Captain Hon. Arthur C.

      Roe, Sir Thomas

      Young, William (Perth, East)

      Munro-Ferguson, Rt. Hon. R. C.

      Rowlands, James

      Yoxall, Sir James Henry

      Nannetti, Joseph P.

      Rowntree, Arnold

      Needham, Christopher T.

      Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter

      TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr.

      Neilson, Francis

      Russell, Rt. Hon. Thomas W.

      G. Howard and Captain Guest.

      NOES.

      Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

      Bigland, Alfred

      Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

      Amery, L. C. M. S.

      Bird, Alfred

      Chaloner, Col. R. G. W.

      Anson, Rt. Hon. Sir William R.

      Boles, Lieut.-Col. Dennis Fortescue

      Chambers, James

      Archer-Shee, Major Martin

      Boscawen, Sir Arthur S. T. Griffith-

      Clay, Captain H. H. Spender

      Ashley, Wilfrid W.

      Boyle, William (Norfolk, Mid)

      Clive, Captain Percy Archer

      Astor, Waldorf

      Boyton, James

      Clyde, James Avon

      Baird, John Lawrence

      Bridgeman, William Clive

      Coates, Major Sir Edward Feetham

      Balcarres, Lord

      Bull, Sir William James

      Cooper, Richard Ashmole

      Baldwin, Stanley

      Burn, Colonel C. R.

      Courthope, George Loyd

      Banbury, Sir Frederick George

      Butcher, John George

      Craig, Charles Curtis (Antrim, S.)

      Barnston, Harry

      Campbell, Capt. Duncan F. (Ayr, N.)

      Craig, Ernest (Cheshire, Crewe)

      Barrie, H. T.

      Campbell, Rt. Hon. J. (Dublin Univ.)

      Craig, Captain James (Down, E.)

      Bathurst, Charles (Wilts, Wilton)

      Campion, W. R.

      Craig, Norman (Kent, Thanet)

      Beach, Hon. Michael Hugh Hicks

      Carlile, Sir Edward Hildred

      Craik, Sir Henry

      Beckett, Hon. W. Gervase

      Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward H.

      Crichton-Stuart, Lord Ninian

      Benn, Arthur Shirley (Plymouth)

      Cassel, Felix

      Cripps, Sir Charles Alfred

      Bentinck, Lord H. Cavendish-

      Castlereagh, Viscount

      Croft, Henry Page

      Beresford, Lord Charles

      Cave, George

      Dalziel, Davison (Brixton)

      1194

      1195

      Denniss, E. R. B.

      Ingleby, Holcombe

      Rolleston, Sir John

      Dickson, Rt. Hon. C. S.

      Jardine, Ernest (Somerset, East)

      Ronaldshay, Earl of

      Dixon, Charles Harvey

      Jessel, Captain Herbert M.

      Rothschild, Lionel de

      Doughty, Sir George

      Joynson-Hicks, William

      Rutherford, John (Lancs., Darwen)

      Eyres-Monsell, Bolton M.

      Kebty-Fletcher, J. R.

      Rutherford, Watson (L'pool, W. Derby)

      Faber, George Denison (Clapham)

      Kerr-Smiley, Peter Kerr

      Salter, Arthur Clavell

      Fell, Arthur

      Kerry, Earl of

      Samuel, Sir Harry (Norwood)

      Fetherstonhaugh, Godfrey

      Kimber, Sir Henry

      Sanders, Robert A.

      Fisher, Rt. Hon. W. Hayes

      Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement

      Sanderson, Lancelot

      Fleming, Valentine

      Lane-Fox, G. R.

      Sassoon, Sir Philip

      Forster, Henry William

      Larmor, Sir J.

      Scott, Leslie (Liverpool, Exchange)

      Gardner, Ernest

      Law, Rt. Hon. A. Bonar (Bootle)

      Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

      Gastrell, Major W. Houghton

      Lawson, Hon. H. (T. Hints., Mile End)

      Smith, Rt. Hon. F. E. (L'p'l, Walton)

      Gibbs, George Abraham

      Lewisham, Viscount

      Smith, Harold (Warrington)

      Goldman, Charles Sydney

      Lloyd, George Ambrose

      Spear, Sir John Ward

      Goldsmith, Frank

      Locker-Lampson, G. (Salisbury)

      Stanier, Beville

      Gordon, John (Londonderry, South)

      Locker-Lampson, O. (Ramsey)

      Stanley, Hon. G. F. (Preston)

      Gordon, Hon. John Edward (Brighton)

      Lockwood, Rt. Hon. Lt.-Col. A. R.

      Starkey, John Ralph

      Goulding, Edward Alfred

      Long, Rt. Hon. Walter

      Staveley-Hill, Henry

      Greene, W. R.

      Lonsdale, Sir John Brownlee

      Steel-Maitland, A. D.

      Gretton, John

      Lowe, Sir F. W. (Birm., Edgbaston)

      Stewart, Gershom

      Guinness, Hon. Rupert (Essex, S. E.)

      Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. A. (S. Geo. Han. S.)

      Swift, Rigby

      Guinness, Hon. W. E. (Bury S. Edmunds)

      Lyttelton, Hon. J. C. (Droitwich)

      Sykes, Alan John (Ches., Knutsford)

      Gwynne, R. S. (Sussex, Eastbourne)

      MacCaw, Wm. J. MacGeagh

      Sykes, Mark (Hull, Central)

      Haddock, George Bahr

      Mackinder, Halford J.

      Talbot, Lord Edmund

      Hall, D. B. (Isle of Wight)

      Macmaster, Donald

      Terrell, George (Wilts, N. W.)

      Hall, Fred (Dulwich)

      McNeill, Ronald (Kent, St. Augustine's)

      Terrell, Henry (Gloucester)

      Hall, Marshall (E. Toxteth)

      Magnus, Sir Philip

      Thomson, W. Mitchell-(Down, N.)

      Hamersley, Alfred St. George

      Meysey-Thompson, E. C.

      Thynne, Lord Alexander

      Hamilton, Marquess of (Londonderry)

      Middlemore, John Throgmorton

      Tobin, Alfred Aspinall

      Hardy, Rt. Hon. Laurence

      Mildmay, Francis Bingham

      Touche, George Alexander

      Harris, Henry Percy

      Mills, Hon. Charles Thomas

      Tryon, Captain George Clement

      Harrison-Broadley, H. B.

      Moore, William

      Tullibardine, Marquess of

      Helmsley, Viscount

      Morrison-Bell, Capt. E. F. (Ashburton)

      Valentia, Viscount

      Henderson, Major H. (Berks, Abingdon)

      Neville, Reginald J. N.

      Ward, A. S. (Herts, Watford)

      Herbert, Hon. A. (Somerset, S.)

      Newdegate, F. A.

      Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid)

      Hewins, William Albert Samuel

      Newton, Harry Kottingham

      Wheler, Granville, C. H.

      Hickman, Colonel Thomas E.

      Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield)

      White, Major G. D. (Lancs., Southport)

      Hill, Sir Clement L.

      Nield, Herbert

      Wills, Sir Gilbert

      Hills, John Waller

      Norton-Griffiths, J.

      Winterton, Earl

      Hill-Wood, Samuel

      O'Neill, Hon. A. E. B. (Antrim, Mid)

      Wolmer, Viscount

      Hoare, Samuel John Gurney

      Orde-Powlett, Hon. W. G. A.

      Wood, Hon. E. F. L. (Yorks, Ripon)

      Hohler, Gerald Fitzroy

      Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William

      Wood, John (Stalybridge)

      Hope, Harry (Bute)

      Parkes, Ebenezer

      Worthington-Evans, L.

      Hope James Fitzalan (Sheffield)

      Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington)

      Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart.

      Hope, Major J. A. (Midlothian)

      Peto, Basil Edward

      Wright, Henry Fitzherbert

      Home, William E. (Surrey, Guildford)

      Pole-Carew, Sir R.

      Yate, Colonel C. E.

      Horner, Andrew Long

      Pollock, Ernest Murray

      Yerburgh, Robert A.

      Houston, Robert Paterson

      Pryce-Jones, Col. E.

      Younger, Sir George

      Hume-Williams, William Ellis

      Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel

      Hunt, Rowland

      Remnant, James Farquharson

      TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr.

      Hunter, Sir Charles Rodk.

      Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall)

      Mount and Mr. P. Foster.

      Question put, "That the Clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill."
      The Committee divided: Ayes, 312; Noes, 209.

      Division No. 343.]

      AYES.

      [11.29 p.m.

      Abraham, William (Dublin, Harbour)

      Beauchamp, Sir Edward

      Cawley, Sir Frederick (Prestwich)

      Abraham, Rt. Hon. William (Rhondda)

      Beck, Arthur Cecil

      Cawley, Harold T. (Heywood)

      Acland, Francis Dyke

      Benn, W. (Tower Hamlets, St. George)

      Chancellor, H. G.

      Adamson, William

      Bentham, G. J.

      Chappie, Dr. W. A.

      Addison, Dr. C.

      Bethell, Sir John Henry

      Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston S.

      Adkins, Sir W. Ryland D.

      Black, Arthur W.

      Clancy, John Joseph

      Agnew, Sir George William

      Boland, John Pius

      Clough, William

      Ainsworth, John Stirling

      Booth, Frederick Handel

      Clynes, J. R.

      Allen, Arthur A. (Dumbartonshire)

      Bowerman, C. W.

      Collins, G. P. (Greenock)

      Allen, Rt. Hon. Charles P. (Stroud)

      Boyle, Daniel (Mayo, North)

      Compton-Rickett, Rt. Hon. Sir. J.

      Arnold, Sydney

      Brace, William

      Condon, Thomas Joseph

      Asquith, Rt. Hon. Herbert Henry

      Brady, Patrick Joseph

      Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.

      Baker, H. T. (Accrington)

      Brocklehurst, W. B.

      Cotton, William Francis

      Baker, Joseph A. (Finsbury, E.)

      Bryce, J. Annan

      Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth)

      Balfour, Sir Robert (Lanark)

      Buckmaster, Stanley O.

      Crawshay-Williams, Eliot

      Baring, Sir Gedfrey (Barnstaple)

      Burke, E. Haviland-

      Crooks, William

      Barlow, Sir John Emmott (Somerset)

      Burns, Rt. Hon. John

      Crumley, Patrick

      Barnes, G. N.

      Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas

      Cullinan, John

      Barran, Rowland Hurst (Leeds, N.)

      Buxton, Rt. Hon. Sydney C. (Poplar)

      Dalziel, Rt. Hon. Sir J. H. (Kirkcaldy)

      Barran, Sir John N. (Hawick Burghs)

      Byles, Sir William Pollard

      Davies E, William (Eiffon)

      Barton, W.

      Carr-Gomm, H. W.

      Davies, Timothy (Lincs., Louth)

      Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.)

      Lambert, Rt. Hon. G. (Devon, S. Molton)

      Radford, George Heynes

      Dawes, J. A.

      Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade)

      Raffan, Peter Wilson

      De Forest, Baron

      Lardner, James Carrige Rushe

      Rea, Rt. Hon. Russell (South Shields)

      Delany, William

      Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, West)

      Rea, Walter Russell (Scarborough)

      Denman, Hon. Richard Douglas

      Lawson, Sir W. (Cumb'rld, Cockerm'th)

      Reddy, M.

      Devlin, Joseph

      Leach, Charles

      Redmond, John E. (Waterford)

      Dickinson, W. H.

      Levy, Sir Maurice

      Redmond, William (Clare)

      Donelan, Captain A.

      Lewis, John Herbert

      Redmond, William Archer (Tyrone, E.)

      Doris, William

      Lough, Rt. Hon. Thomas

      Rendall, Athelstan

      Duffy, William J.

      Low, Sir F. (Norwich)

      Richardson, Albion (Peckham)

      Duncan, J. Hastings (York, Otley)

      Lundon, T.

      Richardson, Thomas (Whitehaven)

      Edwards, Clement (Glamorgan, E.)

      Lyell, Charles Henry

      Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)

      Edwards, Sir Francis (Radnor)

      Lynch, A. A.

      Roberts, Sir J. H. (Denbighs)

      Edwards, John Hugh (Glamorgan, Mid)

      Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester)

      Robertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradford)

      Elverston, Sir Harold

      Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk Burghs)

      Robertson, John M. (Tyneside)

      Esmonde, Dr. John (Tipperary, N.)

      McGhee, Richard

      Robinson, Sidney

      Esmonde, Sir Thomas (Wexford, N.)

      Macnamara, Rt. Hon. Dr. T. J.

      Roch, Walter F. (Pembroke)

      Essex, Richard Waiter

      MacNeill, J. G. Swift (Donegal, South)

      Roche, Augustine (Louth)

      Esslemont, George Birnie

      Macpherson, James Ian

      Roche, John (Galway, E.)

      Falconer, James

      MacVeagh, Jeremiah

      Roe, Sir Thomas

      Farrell, James Patrick

      M'Callum, Sir John M.

      Rowlands, James

      Fenwick, Rt. Hon. Charles

      M'Kean, John

      Rowntree, Arnold

      Ffrench, Peter

      McKenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald

      Russell, Rt. Hon. Thomas W.

      Field, William

      M'Laren, Hon. H. D. (Leicester)

      Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland)

      Fiennes, Hon. Eustace Edward

      M'Laren, Hon. F. W. S. (Lincs., Spalding)

      Samuel, J. (Stockton)

      Fitzgibbon, John

      M'Micklng, Major Gilbert

      Scanlan, Thomas

      Flavin, Michael Joseph

      Manfield, Harry

      Schwann, Rt. Hon. Sir C. E.

      George, Rt. Hon. D. Lloyd

      Martin, Joseph

      Scott, A. MacCallum (Glas., Bridgeton)

      Gill, A. H.

      Mason, David M. (Coventry)

      Seely, Col. Rt. Hon. J. E. B.

      Ginnell, Laurence

      Masterman, Rt. Hon. C. F. G.

      Sheehy, David

      Gladstone, W. G. C.

      Meagher, Michael

      Sherwell, Arthur James

      Glanville, H. J.

      Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.)

      Shortt, Edward

      Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford

      Menzies, Sir Walter

      Simon, Sir John Allsebrook

      Greenwood, Granville G. (Peterborough)

      Millar, James Duncan

      Smith, Albert (Lancs, Clitheroe)

      Grey, Rr. Hon. Sir Edward

      Molloy, M.

      Smith, H. B. (Northampton)

      Griffith, Ellis J.

      Moiteno, Percy Alport

      Smyth, Thomas F.

      Guest, Hon. Major C. H. C. (Pembroke)

      Money, L. G. Chiozza

      Snowden, Philip

      Gulland, John William

      Mooney, John J.

      Soames, Arthur Wellesley

      Gwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway)

      Morgan, George Hay

      Spicer, Rt. Hon. Sir Albert

      Hackett, J.

      Morrell, Philip

      Stanley, Albert (Staffs., N. W.)

      Hall, Frederick (Normanton)

      Morison, Hector

      Strauss, Edward A. (Southwark, West)

      Hancock, J. G.

      Morton, Alpheus Cleophas

      Sutherland, J. E.

      Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Lewis (Rossendale)

      Muldoon, John

      Sutton, John

      Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose)

      Munro-Ferguson, Rt. Hon. R. C.

      Taylor, John W. (Durham)

      Harmsworth, R. L. (Caithness-shire)

      Murray, Captain Hon. A. C.

      Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)

      Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale)

      Nannettl, Joseph P.

      Tennant, Harold John

      Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, West)

      Needham, Christopher T.

      Thomas, James Henry

      Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N. E.)

      Neilson, Francis

      Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton)

      Haslam, James (Derbyshire)

      Nicholson, Sir Charles N. (Doncaster)

      Thorne, William (West Ham)

      Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth)

      Nolan, Joseph

      Toulmin, Sir George

      Havelock-Allan, Sir Henry

      Norton, Captain Cecil W.

      Trevelyan, Charles Philips

      Hayden, John Patrick

      Nugent, Sir Walter Richard

      Ure, Rt. Hon. Alexander

      Hay ward, Evan

      Nuttall, Harry

      Verney, Sir Harry

      Hazleton, Richard

      O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

      Wadsworth, John

      Helme, Sir Norval Watson

      O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)

      Walsh, Stephen (Lancs., Ince)

      Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

      O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)

      Walton, Sir Joseph

      Henry, Sir Charles

      O'Doherty, Philip

      Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent)

      Herbert, Col. Sir Ivor (Mon., S.)

      O'Donnell, Thomas

      Waring, Walter

      Higham, John Sharp

      Ogden, Fred

      Warner, Sir Thomas Courtenay

      Hinds, John

      O'Kelly, Edward P. (Wicklow, W.)

      Wason, Rt. Hon. E. (Clackmannan)

      Hobhouse, Rt. Hon. Charles E. H.

      O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N.)

      Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney)

      Hodge, John

      O'Malley, William

      Webb, H.

      Hogge, James Myles

      O'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, S.)

      Wedgwood, Josiah C.

      Holmes, Daniel Turner

      O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

      White, J. (Glasgow, Tradeston)

      Holt, Richard Durning

      O'Shee, James John

      White, Patrick (Meath, North)

      Hope, John Deans (Haddington)

      O'Sullivan, Timothy

      Whitehouse, John Howard

      Horne, Charles Silvester (Ipswich)

      Outhwaite, R. L.

      Whittaker, Rt. Hon. Sir Thomas P.

      Hudson, Walter

      Palmer, Godfrey

      Whyte, A. F. (Perth)

      Hughes, S. L.

      Parker, James (Halifax)

      Wiles, Thomas

      Illingworth, Percy H.

      Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek)

      Wilkie, Alexander

      Isaacs, Rt. Hon. Sir Rufus

      Pearce, William (Limehouse)

      Williams, John (Glamorgan)

      John, Edward Thomas

      Pease, Rt. Hon. Joseph A. (Rotherham)

      Williams, Llewelyn (Carmarthen)

      Jones, Edgar R. (Merthyr Tydvil)

      Philipps, Col. Ivor (Southampton)

      Williams, P. (Middlesbrough)

      Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)

      Phillips, John (Longford, S.)

      Wilson, Hon. G. G. (Hull, W.)

      Jones, J. Towyn (Carmarthen, East)

      Pirie, Duncan V.

      Wilson, Rt. Hon. J. W. (Worcs., N.)

      Jones, Leif Stratten (Notts, Rushcliffe)

      Pointer, Joseph

      Wilson, W. T. (Westhroughton)

      Jones, William (Carnarvonshire)

      Pollard, Sir George H.

      Winfrey, Richard

      Jones, W. S. Glyn-(Stepney)

      Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H.

      Wood, Rt. Hon. T. McKinnon (Glas.)

      Joyce, Michael

      Power, Patrick Joseph

      Young, Samuel (Cavan, East)

      Keating, M.

      Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central)

      Young, William (Perth, East)

      Kellaway, Frederick George

      Price, Sir Robert J. (Norfolk, E.)

      Yoxall, Sir James Henry

      Kennedy, Vincent Paul

      Priestley, Sir Arthur (Grantham)

      Kilbride, Denis

      Primrose, Hon. Neil James

      TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr.

      King, J.

      Pringle, William M. R.

      Geoffrey Howard and Captain Guest.

      1198

      1199

      NOES.

      Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

      Gordon, John (Londonderry, South)

      Newdegate, F. A.

      Aitken, Sir William Max

      Gordon, Hon. John Edward (Brighton)

      Newton, Harry Kottingham

      Amery, L. C. M. S.

      Goulding, Edward Alfred

      Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield)

      Anson, Rt. Hon. Sir William R.

      Greene, Walter Raymond

      Nield, Herbert

      Archer-Shoe, Major M.

      Gretton, John

      Norton-Griffiths, John

      Ashley, W. W.

      Guinness, Hon. Rupert (Essex, S. E.)

      O'Neill, Hon. A. E. B. (Antrim, Mid)

      Astor, Waldorf

      Guinness, Hon. W. E. (Bury S. Edmunds)

      Orde-Powlett, Hon. W. G. A.

      Baird, J. L.

      Gwynne, R. S. (Sussex, Eastbourne)

      Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William

      Balcarres, Lord

      Haddock, George Bahr

      Parker, Sir Gilbert (Gravesend)

      Baldwin, Stanley

      Hall, D. B. (Isle of Wight)

      Parkes, Ebenezer

      Banbury, Sir Frederick George

      Hall, Fred (Dulwich)

      Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington)

      Barnston, H.

      Hall, Marshall (E. Toxteth)

      Peto, Basil Edward

      Barrie, H. T.

      Hamersley, Alfred St. George

      Pole-Carew, Sir R.

      Bathurst, Charles (Wilts, Wilton)

      Hamilton, Marquess of (Londonderry)

      Pollock, Ernest Murray

      Beach, Hon. Michael Hugh Hicks

      Hardy, Rt. Hon. Laurence

      Pryce-Jones, Colonel E.

      Beckett, Hon. Gervase

      Harrison-Broadley, H. B.

      Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel

      Benn, Arthur Shirley (Plymouth)

      Helmsley, Viscount

      Remnant, James Farquharson

      Bentinck, Lord H. Cavendish-

      Henderson, Major H. (Berks, Abingdon)

      Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall)

      Beresford, Lord C.

      Herbert, Hon. A. (Somerset, S.)

      Ronaldshay, Earl of

      Bigland, Alfred

      Hewins, William Albert Samuel

      Rothschild, Lionel de

      Bird, A.

      Hickman, Colonel Thomas E.

      Rutherford, John (Lancs., Darwen)

      Boles, Lieut.-Col. Dennis Fortescue

      Hill, Sir Clement L. (Shrewsbury)

      Rutherford, W. (Liverpool, W. Derby)

      Boscawen, Sir Arthur S. T. Griffith-

      Hills, John Waller

      Salter, Clavell

      Boyle, William (Norfolk, Mid)

      Hill-Wood, Samuel

      Samuel, Sir Harry (Norwood)

      Boyton, J.

      Hoare, S. J. G.

      Sanders, Robert A.

      Bridgeman, William Clive

      Hohler, G. F.

      Sanderson, Lancelot

      Bull, Sir William James

      Hope, Harry (Bute)

      Sassoon, Sir Philip

      Butcher, J. G.

      Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield)

      Scott, Leslie (Liverpool, Exchange)

      Campbell, Capt. Duncan F. (Ayr, N.)

      Hope, Major J. A. (Midlothian)

      Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

      Campbell, Rt. Hon. J. (Dublin Univ.)

      Home, Edgar (Surrey, Guildford)

      Smith, Rt. Hon. F. E. (L'p'l, Walton)

      Campion, W. R.

      Horner, Andrew Long

      Smith, Harold (Warrington)

      Carlile, Sir Edward Hildred

      Houston, Robert Paterson

      Spear, Sir John Ward

      Carson, Rt. Hon. sir Edward H.

      Hume-Williams, William Ellis

      Stanier, Beville

      Cassel, Felix

      Hunt, Rowland

      Stanley, Hon. G. F. (Preston)

      Castlereagh, Viscount

      Hunter, Sir C. R.

      Starkey, John R.

      Cave, George

      Ingleby, Holcombe

      Staveley-Hill, Henry

      Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

      Jackson, Sir John

      Steel-Maitland, A. D.

      Cecil, Lord R. (Herts, Hitchin)

      Jardine, E. (Somerset, E.)

      Stewart, Gershom

      Chaloner, Col. R. G. W.

      Jessel, Captain H. M.

      Swift, Rigby

      Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J. A. (Worc'r.)

      Joynson-Hicks, William

      Sykes, Alan John (Ches., Kiiutsford)

      Clay, Capt. H. Spender

      Kerr-Smiley, Peter Kerr

      Sykes, Mark (Hull, Central)

      Clive, Captain Percy Archer

      Kerry, Earl of

      Talbot, Lord Edmund

      Clyde, J. Avon

      Kimber, Sir Henry

      Terrell, G. (Wilts, N. W.)

      Coates, Major Sir Edward Feetham

      Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement

      Terrell, Henry (Gloucester)

      Cooper, Richard Ashmole

      Lane-Fox, G. R.

      Thomson, W. Mitchell-(Down, N.)

      Courthope, George Loyd

      Larmor, Sir J.

      Thynne, Lord Alexander

      Craig, Charles Curtis (Antrim, S.)

      Lawson, Hon. H. (T. H'mts., Mile End)

      Tobin, Alfred Aspinall

      Craig, Captain James (Down, E.)

      Lewisham, Viscount

      Touche, George Alexander

      Craig, Norman (Kent, Thanet)

      Lloyd, George Ambrose

      Tryon, Captain George Clement

      Craik, Sir Henry

      Locker-Lampson, O. (Ramsey)

      Tullibardine, Marquess of

      Crichton-Stuart, Lord Ninian

      Lockwood, Rt. Hon. Lt.-Col. A. R.

      Valentia, Viscount

      Croft, Henry Page

      Long, Rt. Hon. Walter

      Ward, A. S. (Herts, Watford)

      Dalziel, D. (Brixton)

      Lonsdale, Sir John Brownlee

      Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid)

      Denniss, E. R. B.

      Lowe, Sir F. W. (Birm., Edgbaston)

      Wheler, Granville C. H.

      Dickson, Rt. Hon. C. Scott

      Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. A. (S. Geo., Han. S.)

      White, Major G. D. (Lancs., Southport)

      Dixon, C. H.

      Lyttelton, Hon. J. C. (Droitwich)

      Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.)

      Doughty, Sir George

      MacCaw, Wm. J. MacGeagh

      Wills, Sir Gilbert

      Duke, Henry Edward

      Mackinder, Halford J.

      Winterton, Earl

      Eyres-Monsell, Bolton M.

      Macmaster, Donald

      Wolmer, Viscount

      Faber, George D. (Clapham)

      McNeill, Ronald (Kent, St. Augustine)

      Wood, Hon. E. F. L. (Yorks, Ripon)

      Fell, Arthur

      Magnus, Sir Philip

      Wood, John (Stalybridge)

      Fetherstonhaugh, Godfrey

      Malcolm, Ian

      Worthington-Evans, L.

      Fleming, Valentine

      Meysey-Thompson, E. C.

      Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-

      Forster, Henry William

      Middlemore, John Throgmorton

      Wright, Henry Fitzherbert

      Foster, Philip Staveley

      Mildmay, Francis Bingham

      Yate, Col. C. E.

      Gardner, Ernest

      Mills, Hon. Charles Thomas

      Yerburgh, Robert A.

      Gastrell, Major W. H.

      Moore, William

      Younger, Sir George

      Gibbs, G. A.

      Morrison-Bell, Capt. E. F. (Ashburton)

      Goldman, C. S.

      Mount, William Arthur

      TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr.

      Goldsmith, Frank

      Neville, Reginald J. N.

      G. Locker-Lampson and Col. Burn.

      CLAUSE 19.—(Development Fund and Road Improvement Grant.)
      (1) Nothing in this Act shall affect the powers of the Development Commissioners or the Road Board with respect to Ireland under the Development and Road Improvement Funds Act, 1909, and for the purposes
      1200
      of that Act any Irish department shall be deemed to be a Government department within the meaning of that Act.
      (2) So long as a sum equal to the net proceeds of the duties on motor spirits and the net proceeds of the duties on licences for motor cars levied in Ireland is paid as

      1201
      part of the road improvement grant under section ninety of the Finance (1909–10) Act, 1910, the proceeds of those duties shall not be treated for the purposes of the financial provisions of this Act as the proceeds of an Imperial tax levied in Ireland.
      Government Amendment: In Sub-section (1) after the word "of" ["shall affect the
      powers of"] to insert the words "the Treasury or."—[Mr. Herbert Samuel.]
      Question put, "That the Amendment be made."
      The Committee divided: Ayes, 307; Noes, 205.

      Division No. 344.]

      AYES.

      [11.40 p.m.

      Abraham, William (Dublin Harbour)

      Duffy, William J.

      Jowett, Frederick William

      Abraham, Rt. Hon. William (Rhondda)

      Duncan, J. Hastings (Yorks, Otley)

      Joyce, Michael

      Acland, Francis Dyke

      Edwards, Clement (Glamorgan, E.)

      Keating, Matthew

      Adamson, William

      Edwards, Sir Francis (Radnor)

      Kellaway, Frederick George

      Addison, Dr. C.

      Edwards, John Hugh (Glamorgan, Mid)

      Kennedy, Vincent Paul

      Adkins, Sir W. Ryland D.

      Elverston, Sir Harold

      Kilbride, Denis

      Agnew, Sir George

      Esmonde, Dr. John (Tipperary, N.)

      King, J.

      Ainsworth, John Stirling

      Esmonde, Sir Thomas (Wexford, N.)

      Lambert, Rt. Hon. G. (Devon, S. Molton)

      Allen, Rt. Hon. Charles P. (Stroud)

      Essex, Richard Walter

      Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade)

      Allen, Arthur A. (Dumbarton)

      Esslemont, George Birnie

      Lardner, James Carrige Rushe

      Arnold, Sydney

      Falconer, J.

      Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, West)

      Asquith, Rt. Hon. Herbert Henry

      Farrell, James Patrick

      Lawson, Sir W. (Cumb'rid, Cock'rmth)

      Baker, H. T. (Accrington)

      Fenwick, Rt. Hon. Charles

      Leach, Charles

      Baker, Joseph A. (Finsbury, E.)

      Ffrench, Peter

      Levy, Sir Maurice

      Balfour, Sir Robert (Lanark)

      Field, William

      Lewis, John Herbert

      Baring, Sir Godfrey (Barnstaple)

      Flennes, Hon. Eustace Edward

      Lough, Rt. Hon. Thomas

      Barlow, Sir John Emmott (Somerset)

      Fitzgibbon, John

      Low, Sir F. (Norwich)

      Barnes, G. N.

      Flavin, Michael Joseph

      Lundon, T.

      Barran, Rowland Hurst (Leeds, N.)

      George Rt. Hon. D. Lloyd

      Lyell, Charles Henry

      Barton, W.

      Gill, A. H.

      Lynch, A. A.

      Beauchamp, Sir Edward

      Ginnell, Laurence

      Macdonald, J. Ramsay (Leicester)

      Beck, Arthur Cecil

      Gladstone, W. G. C.

      Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk Burghs)

      Benn, W. W. (T. H'mts., St. George)

      Glanville, H. J.

      McGhee, Richard

      Bennett-Goldney, Francis

      Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford

      Macnamara, Rt. Hon. Dr. T. J.

      Bethell, Sir J. H.

      Greenwood, Granville G. (Peterborough)

      MacNeill, J. G. Swift (Donegal, South)

      Black, Arthur W.

      Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward

      Macpherson, James Ian

      Boland, John Pius

      Griffith, Ellis J.

      MacVeagh, Jeremiah

      Booth, Frederick Handel

      Guest, Major Hon. C. H. C. (Pembroke)

      M'Callum, Sir John M.

      Bowerman, C. W.

      Guest, Hon. Frederick E. (Dorset, E.)

      M'Kean, John

      Boyle, Daniel (Mayo, North)

      Gulland, John William

      McKenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald

      Brace, William

      Gwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway)

      M'Laren, Hon. H. D. (Lelcs.)

      Brady, Patrick Joseph

      Hackett, J.

      M'Laren, Hon. F. W. S. (Lincs., Spalding)

      Brocklehurst, William B.

      Hall, Frederick (Normanton)

      M'Micking, Major Gilbert

      Bryce, J. Annan

      Hancock, John George

      Manfield, Harry

      Buckmaster, Stanley O.

      Harcourt, Hon. Lewis (Rossendale)

      Martin, Joseph

      Burke, E. Haviland-

      Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose)

      Masterman, Rt. Hon. C. F. G.

      Burns, Rt. Hon. John

      Harmsworth, R. L. (Caithness-shire)

      Meagher, Michael

      Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas

      Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale)

      Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim)

      Buxton, Rt. Hon. Sydney C. (Poplar)

      Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, West)

      Menzies, Sir Walter

      Byles, Sir William Pollard

      Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N.E.)

      Millar, James Duncan

      Carr-Gomm, H. W.

      Haslam, James (Derbyshire)

      Molloy, M.

      Cawley, Sir Frederick (Prestwich)

      Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth)

      Molteno, Percy Alport

      Cawley, Harold T. (Heywood)

      Havelock-Allan, Sir Henry

      Money, L. G. Chiozza

      Chancellor, Henry George

      Hayden, John Patrick

      Mooney, J. J.

      Chapple, Dr. W. A.

      Hayward, Evan

      Morgan, George Hay

      Clancy, John Joseph

      Hazleton, Richard

      Worrell, Philip

      Clough, William

      Helme, Sir Nerval Watson

      Morlson, Hector

      Clynes, J. R.

      Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

      Morton, Alpheus Cleophas

      Collins, Godfrey P. (Greenock)

      Henry, Sir Charles

      Muldoon, John

      Compton-Rickett, Rt. Hon. Sir J.

      Herbert, Col. Sir Ivor (Mon., S.)

      Munro-Ferguson, Rt. Hon. R. C.

      Condon, Thomas Joseph

      Higham, John Sharp

      Murray, Capt. Hon. A. C.

      Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.

      Hinds, John

      Nannetti, Joseph

      Cotton, William Francis

      Hobhouse, Rt. Hon. Charles E. H.

      Needham, Christopher T.

      Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth)

      Hodge, John

      Neilson, Francis

      Crawshay-Williams, Eliot

      Hogge, James Myles

      Nicholson, Sir Charles N. (Doncaster)

      Crooks, William

      Holmes, Daniel Turner

      Nolan, Joseph

      Crumley, Patrick

      Holt, Richard Durning

      Norton, Capt. Cecil W.

      Cullinan, John

      Hope, John Deans (Haddington)

      Nugent, Sir Walter Richard

      Dalziel, Rt. Hon. Sir J. H. (Kirkcaldy)

      Home, Charles Silvester (Ipswich)

      Nuttall, Harry

      Davies, E. William (Eifion)

      Howard, Hon. Geoffrey

      O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

      Davies, Timothy (Louth)

      Hudson, Walter

      O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)

      Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.)

      Hughes, S. L.

      O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)

      Dawes, J. A.

      Illingworth, Percy H.

      O'Doherty, Philip

      De Forest, Baron

      Isaacs, Rt. Hon. Sir Rufus

      O'Donnell, Thomas

      Delany, William

      John, Edward Thomas

      Ogden, Fred

      Denman, Hon. Richard Douglas

      Jones, Edgar (Merthyr Tydvil)

      O'Kelly, Edward P. (Wicklow, W.)

      Devlin, Joseph

      Jones, Haydn (Merioneth)

      O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N.)

      Dickinson, W. H.

      Jones, J. Towyn (Carmarthen, East)

      O'Malley, William

      Donelan, Captain A.

      Jones, Leif (Notts, Rushcliffe)

      O'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, S.)

      Doris, William

      Jones, W. S. Glyn- (T. H'mts, Stepney)

      O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

      O'Shee, James John

      Robertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradford)

      Trevelyan, Charles Philips

      O'Sullivan, Timothy

      Robertson, John M. (Tyneside)

      Ure, Rt. Hon. Alexander

      Outhwaite, R. L.

      Robinson, Sidney

      Verney, Sir Harry

      Palmer, Godfrey Mark

      Roch, Walter F. (Pembroke)

      Wadsworth, John

      Parker, James (Halifax)

      Roche, Augustine (Louth)

      Walsh, Stephen (Lancs., Ince)

      Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek)

      Roe, Sir Thomas

      Walton, Sir Joseph

      Pearce, William (Limehouse)

      Rowlands, James

      Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent)

      Pease, Rt. Hon. Joseph A. (Rotherham)

      Rowntree, Arnold

      Waring, Walter

      Philipps, Col. Ivor (Southampton)

      Russell, Rt. Hon. Thomas W.

      Warner, Sir Thomas Courtenay

      Phillips, John (Longford, S.)

      Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland)

      Wason, Rt. Hon. E. (Clackmannan)

      Pirie, Duncan V.

      Samuel, J. (Stockton)

      Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney)

      Pointer, Joseph

      Scanlan, Thomas

      Wedgwood, Josiah C.

      Pollard, Sir George H.

      Schwann, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles E.

      White, J. Dundas (Glasgow, Tradeston)

      Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H.

      Scott, A. MacCallum (Glas., Bridgeton)

      White, Patrick (Meath, North)

      Power, Patrick Joseph

      Seely, Col. Rt. Hon. J. E. B.

      Whitehouse, John Howard

      Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central)

      Sheehy, David

      Whittaker, Rt. Hon. Sir Thomas P.

      Price, Sir Robert J. (Norfolk, E.)

      Shortt, Edward

      Whyte, A. F. (Perth)

      Priestley, Sir Arthur (Grantham)

      Smith, Albert (Lancs., Clitheroe)

      Wiles, Thomas

      Primrose, Hon. Neil James

      Smith, H. B. (Lees (Northampton)

      Wilkie, Alexander

      Pringle, William M. R.

      Smyth, Thomas F.

      Williams, J. (Glamorgan)

      Radford, G. H.

      Snowden, p.

      Williams, Llewelyn (Carmarthen)

      Raffan, Peter Wilson

      Soames, Arthur Wellesley

      Williams, P. (Middlesbrough)

      Rea, Rt. Hon. Russell (South Shields)

      Stanley, Albert (Staffs, N. W.)

      Wilson, Hon. G. G. (Hull, W.)

      Rea, Walter Russell (Scarborough)

      Strauss, Edward A. (Southwark, West)

      Wilson, Rt. Hon. J. W. (Worcs., N.)

      Reddy, M.

      Sutherland, J. E.

      Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)

      Redmond, John E. (Waterford)

      Sutton, John E.

      Winfrey, Richard

      Redmond, William (Clare)

      Taylor, John W. (Durham)

      Wood, Rt. Hon. T. McKinnon (Glas.)

      Redmond, William Archer (Tyrone, E.)

      Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)

      Young, Samuel (Cavan, East)

      Kendall, Athelstan

      Tennant, Harold John

      Young, William (Perth, East)

      Richardson, Albion (Peckham)

      Thomas, James Henry

      Richardson, Thomas (Whitehaven)

      Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton)

      TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr.

      Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)

      Thorne, William (West Ham)

      W. Jones and Mr. Webb.

      Roberts, Sir J. H. (Denbighs)

      Toulmin, Sir George

      NOES.

      Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

      Craig, Norman (Kent, Thanet)

      Hohler, G. F.

      Aitken, Sir William Max

      Craik, Sir Henry

      Hepe, Harry (Bute)

      Amery, L. C. M. S.

      Crichton-Stuart, Lord Ninian

      Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield)

      Anson, Rt. Hon. Sir William R.

      Croft, Henry Page

      Hope, Major J. A. (Midlothian)

      Archer-Shee, Major Martin

      Dalziel, D. (Brixton)

      Home, Edgar (Surrey, Guildford)

      Ashley, W. W.

      Denniss, E. R. B.

      Horner, Andrew Long

      Astor, Waldorf

      Dickson, Rt. Hon. C. Scott

      Houston, Robert Paterson

      Baird, J. L.

      Dixon, Charles H.

      Hume-Williams, William Ellis

      Balcarres, Lord

      Doughty, Sir George

      Hunt, Rowland

      Baldwin, Stanley

      Duke, Henry Edward

      Hunter, Sir C. R.

      Banbury, Sir Frederick George

      Eyres-Monsell, Bolton M.

      Ingleby, Holcombe

      Barnston, Harry

      Faber, George D. (Clapham)

      Jackson, Sir John

      Barrie, H. T.

      Fell, Arthur

      Jardine, E. (Somerset, E.)

      Bathurst, Charles (Wilts, Wilton)

      Fetherstonhaugh, Godfrey

      Jessel, Captain H. M.

      Beach, Hon. Michael Hugh Hicks

      Fisher, Rt. Hon. W. Hayes

      Joynson-Hicks, William

      Beckett, Hon. Gervase

      Fleming, Valentine

      Kebty-Fletcher, J. R.

      Benn, Arthur Shirley (Plymouth)

      Forster, Henry William

      Kerr-Smiley, Peter Kerr

      Bentinck, Lord Henry Cavendish-

      Foster, Philip Staveley

      Kimber, Sir Henry

      Beresford, Lord C.

      Gardner, Ernest

      Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement

      Bigland, Alfred

      Gastrell, Major W. H.

      Lane-Fox, G. R.

      Bird, A.

      Glbbs, G. A.

      Larmor, Sir J.

      Boles, Lieut.-Col. Dennis Fortescue

      Goldman, C. S.

      Law, Rt. Hon. A. Bonar (Bootle)

      Boscawen, Sir Arthur S. T. Griffith-

      Goldsmith, Frank

      Lawson, Hon. H. (T. H'mts., Mile End)

      Boyle, William (Norfolk, Mid)

      Gordon, John (Londonderry, South)

      Lewisham, Viscount

      Boyton, J.

      Gordon, Hon. John Edward (Brighton)

      Lloyd, George Ambrose

      Bridgeman, W. Clive

      Goulding, Edward Alfred

      Locker-Lampson, G. (Salisbury)

      Bull, Sir William James

      Greene, W. R.

      Locker-Lampson, O. (Ramsey)

      Burn, Col. C. R.

      Gretton, John

      Lockwood, Rt. Hon. Lt.-Col. A. R.

      Butcher, J. G.

      Guinness, Hon. Rupert (Essex, S.E.)

      Long, Rt. Hon. Walter

      Campbell, Capt. Duncan F. (Ayr, N.)

      Guinness, Hon. W. E. (Bury S. Edmunds)

      Lowe, Sir F. W. (Birm., Edgbaston)

      Campbell, Rt. Hon. J. (Dublin Univ.)

      Gwynne, R. S. (Sussex, Eastbourne)

      Lyttelton, Hon. J. C. (Droitwich)

      Campion, W. R.

      Haddock, George Bahr

      MacCaw, Wm. J. MacGeagh

      Carlile, Sir Edward Hildred

      Hall, D. B. (Isle of Wight)

      Mackinder, Halford J.

      Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward H.

      Hall, Fred (Dulwich)

      Macmaster, Donald

      Cassel, Felix

      Hall, Marshall (E. Toxteth)

      McNeill, Ronald (Kent, St. Augustine's)

      Castlereagh, Viscount

      Hamersley, Alfred St, George

      Malcolm, Ian

      Cave, George

      Hamilton, Marquess of (Londonderry)

      Meysey-Thompson, E. C.

      Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

      Hardy, Rt. Hon. Laurence

      Middlemore, John Throgmorton

      Chaloner, Col. R. G. W.

      Harrison-Broadley, H. B.

      Mildmay, Francis Bingham

      Chambers, James

      Helmsley, Viscount

      Mills, Hon. Charles Thomas

      Clay, Captain H. Spender

      Henderson, Major H. (Berks)

      Moore, William

      Clive, Captain Percy Archer

      Herbert, Hon. A. (Somerset, S.)

      Morrison-Bell, Capt. E. F. (Ashburton)

      Clyde, J. Avon

      Hewins, William Albert Samuel

      Mount, William Arthur

      Coates, Major Sir Edward Feetham

      Hickman, Col. Thomas E.

      Neville, Reginald J. N.

      Cooper, Richard Ashmole

      Hill, Sir Clement L. (Shrewsbury)

      Newdegate, F. A.

      Court-hope, George Loyd

      Hills, J. W.

      Newton, Harry Kottingham

      Craig, Charles Curtis (Antrim, S.)

      Hill-Wood, Samuel

      Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield)

      Craig, Captain James (Down, E.)

      Hoare, Samuel J. G.

      Nield, Herbert

      1204

      1205

      Norton-Griffiths, John

      Sassoon, Sir Philip

      Tullibardine, Marquess of

      O'Neill, Han. A. E. B. (Antrim, Mid)

      Scott, Leslie (Liverpool, Exchange)

      Valentia, Viscount

      Orde-Powlett, Hon. W. G. A.

      Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

      Ward, A. S. (Herts, Watford)

      Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William

      Smith, Harold (Warrington)

      Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent. Mid)

      Parker, Sir Gilbert (Gravesend)

      Spear, Sir John Ward

      Wheler, Granville C. H.

      Parker, Ebenezer

      Stanier, Beville

      White, Major G. D. (Lancs., Southport)

      Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington)

      Stanley, Hon. G. F. (Preston)

      Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.)

      Peto, Basil Edward

      Starkey, John R.

      Wills, Sir Gilbert

      Pole-Carew, Sir R.

      Staveley-Hill, Henry

      Winterton, Earl

      Pollock, Ernest Murray

      Steel-Maitland, A. D.

      Wolmer, Viscount

      Pryce-Jones, Col. E.

      Stewart, Gershom,

      Wood, Hon. E. F. L. (Yorks, Ripen)

      Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel

      Swift, Rigby

      Wood, John (Stalybridge)

      Remnant, James Farquharson

      Sykes, Alan John (Ches., Knutsford)

      Worthington-Evans, L.

      Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall)

      Sykes, Mark (Hull, Central)

      Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-

      Ronaldshay, Earl of

      Talbot, Lord Edmund

      Wright, Henry Fitzherbert

      Rothschild, Lionel de

      Terrell, George (Wilts, N.W.)

      Yate, Col. C. E.

      Rutherford, John (Lancs., Darwen)

      Terrell, Henry (Gloucester)

      Yerburgh, Robert A.

      Rutherford, W. (Liverpool, W. Derby)

      Thomson, W. Mitchell- (Down, North)

      Younger, Sir George

      Salter, Arthur Clavell

      Thynne, Lord Alexander

      Samuel, Sir Harry (Norwood)

      Tobin, Alfred Aspinall

      TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Lord

      Sanders, Robert A.

      Touche, George Alexander

      Kerry and Sir J. Lonsdale.

      Sanderson, Lancelot

      Tryon, Captain George Clement

      Government Amendment: In Sub-section (2), at the end, add, "nor shall the Irish Parliament have power to vary those duties."—[Mr. Herbert Sumuel.]
      Question put, "That the Amendment be made."
      The Committee divided: Ayes, 304; Noes, 201.

      Division No. 345.]

      AYES.

      [11.50 p. m.

      Abraham, William (Dublin, Harbour)

      Condon, Thomas Joseph

      Hancock, John George

      Abraham, Rt. Hon. William (Rhondda)

      Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.

      Harcourt, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Rossendale)

      Acland, Francis Dyke

      Cotton, William Francis

      Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose)

      Adamson, William

      Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth)

      Harmsworth, R. L. (Caithness-shire)

      Addison, Dr. Christopher

      Crawshay-Williams, Eliot

      Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale)

      Adkins, Sir W. Ryland D.

      Crooks, William

      Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, West)

      Agnew, Sir George William

      Crumley, Patrick

      Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N. E)

      Ainsworth, John Stirling

      Cullinan, John

      Haslam, James (Derbyshire)

      Allen, Arthur A. (Dumbarton)

      Dalziel, Rt. Hon. Sir J. H. (Kirkcaldy)

      Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth)

      Allen, Rt. Hon. Charles P. (Stroud)

      Davies, Ellis William (Eifion)

      Havelock-Allan, Sir Henry

      Arnold, Sydney

      Davies, Timothy (Lincs., Louth)

      Hayden, John Patrick

      Asquith, Rt. Hon. Herbert Henry

      Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.)

      Hazleton, Richard

      Baker, Harold T. (Accrington)

      Dawes, James Arthur

      Helme, Sir Norval Watson

      Baker, Joseph Allen (Finsbury, E.)

      De Forest, Baron

      Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

      Balfour, Sir Robert (Lanark)

      Delany, William

      Henry, Sir Charles

      Baring, Sir Godfrey (Barnstaple)

      Denman, Hon. Richard Douglas

      Herbert, Col. Sir Ivor (Mon., S.)

      Barlow, Sir John Emmott (Somerset)

      Devlin, Joseph

      Higham, John Sharp

      Barnes, George N.

      Dickinson, W. H.

      Hinds, John

      Barran, Sir John (Hawick Burghs)

      Donelan, Captain A.

      Hobhouse, Rt. Hon. Charles E. H.

      Barran, Rowland Hurst (Leeds, N.)

      Doris, William

      Hodge, John

      Barton, William

      Duffy, William J.

      Hogge, James Myles

      Beauchamp, Sir Edward

      Duncan, J. Hastings (Yorks, Otley)

      Holmes, Daniel Turner

      Beck, Arthur Cecil

      Edwards, Clement (Glamorgan, E.)

      Holt, Richard Durning

      Benn, W. W. (T. Hamlets, St, Geo.)

      Edwards, John Hugh (Glamorgan, Mid)

      Hope, John Deans (Haddington)

      Bentham, George Jackson

      Elverston, Sir Harold

      Home, Charles Silvester (Ipswich)

      Bethell, Sir John Henry

      Esmonde, Dr. John (Tipperary, N.)

      Howard, Hon. Geoffrey

      Black, Arthur W.

      Esmonde, Sir Thomas (Wexford, N.)

      Hudson, Walter

      Boland, John Pius

      Essex, Richard Walter

      Hughes, Spencer Leigh

      Booth, Frederick Handel

      Esslemont, George Birnie

      Illingworth, Percy H.

      Bowerman, Charles W.

      Falconer, James

      Isaacs, Rt. Hon. Sir Rufus

      Boyle, Daniel (Mayo, North)

      Farrell, James Patrick

      John, Edward Thomas

      Brace, William

      Fenwick, Rt. Hon. Charles

      Jones, Edgar (Merthyr Tydvil)

      Brady, Patrick Joseph

      Ffrench, Peter

      Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)

      Brocklehurst, William B.

      Field, William

      Jones, J. Towyn (Carmarthen, East)

      Bryce. John Annan

      Fiennes, Hon. Eustace Edward

      Jones, Leif Stratten (Notts, Rushcliffe)

      Buckmaster, Stanley O.

      Fitzgibbon, John

      Jones, W. S. Glyn- (T. H'mts, Stepney)

      Burke, E. Haviland-

      Flavin, Michael Joseph

      Joyce, Michael

      Burns, Rt. Hon. John

      George, Rt. Hon. D. Lloyd

      Keating, Matthew

      Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas

      Gill, Alfred Henry

      Kellaway, Frederick George

      Buxton, Rt. Hon. S. C. (Poplar)

      Ginnell, L.

      Kennedy, Vincent Paul

      Byles, Sir William Pollard

      Gladstone, W. G. C.

      Kilbride, Denis

      Carr-Gomm, H. W.

      Glanville, Harold James

      King, Joseph

      Cawley, Sir Frederick (Prestwich)

      Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford

      Lambert, Rt. Hon. G. (Devon, S. Molten)

      Cawley, Harold T. (Heywood)

      Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward

      Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade)

      Chancellor, Henry George

      Griffith, Ellis Jones

      Lardner, James Carrige Rushe

      Chappie, Dr. William Allen

      Guest, Major Hon. C. H. C. (Pembroke)

      Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, West)

      Clancy, John Joseph

      Guest, Hon. Frederick E. (Dorset, E.)

      Lawson, Sir W. (Cumb'rid, Cockertn'th)

      Clough, William

      Gulland, John William

      Leach, Charles

      Clynes, John R.

      Gwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway)

      Levy, Sir Maurice

      Collins, Godlrey P. (Greenock)

      Hackett, John

      Lewis, John Herbert

      Compton-Rickett, Rt. Hon. Sir J,

      Hall, Frederick (Yorks, Normanton)

      Lough, Rt. Hon. Thomas

      Low, Sir Frederick (Norwich)

      O'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, S.)

      Shortt, Edward

      Lundon, Thomas

      O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

      Simon, Sir John Alsebrook

      Lyell, Charles Henry

      O'Shee, James John

      Smith, Albert (Lancs., Clitheroe)

      Lynch, Arthur Alfred

      O'Sullivan, Timothy

      Smith, H. B. L. (Northampton)

      Macdonald, J. Ramsay (Leicester)

      Outhwaite, R. L.

      Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim)

      Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk Burghs)

      Palmer, Godfrey Mark

      Snowden, P.

      McGhee, Richard

      Parker, James (Halifax)

      Soames, Arthur Wellesley

      Macnamara, Rt. Hon. Dr. T. J.

      Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek)

      Stanley, Albert (Staffs, N.W.)

      MacNeill, J. G. Swift (Donegal, South)

      Pearce, William (Limehouse)

      Strauss, Edward A. (Southwark, West).

      Macpherson, James Ian

      Pease, Rt. Hon. Joseph A. (Rotherham)

      Sutherland, John E.

      M'Callum, Sir John M.

      Philipps, Col. Ivor (Southampton)

      Sutton, John F.

      M'Curdy, Charles Albert

      Phillips, John (Longford, S.)

      Taylor, John W. (Durham)

      M'Kean, John

      Pirie, Duncan V.

      Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)

      McKenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald

      Pointer, Joseph

      Tennant, Harold John

      M'Laren, Hon. H. D. (Leics.)

      Pollard, Sir George H.

      Thomas, J. H.

      M'Laren, Hon. F.W.S. (Lincs., Spalding)

      Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H.

      Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton)

      M'Micking, Major Gilbert

      Power, Patrick Joseph

      Thorne, William (West Ham)

      Manfield, Harry

      Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central)

      Toulmin, Sir George

      Martin, Joseph

      Price, Sir Robert J. (Norfolk, E.)

      Trevelyan, Charles Philips

      Masterman, Rt. Hon. C. F. G.

      Priestley, Sir Arthur (Grantham)

      Ure, Rt. Hon. Alexander

      Meagher, Michael

      Primrose, Hon. Neil James

      Verney, Sir Harry

      Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.)

      Pringle, William M. R.

      Wadsworth, John

      Menzies, Sir Walter

      Radford, George Heynes

      Walsh, Stephen (Lancs., Ince)

      Millar, James Duncan

      Raffan, Peter Wilson

      Walton, Sri Joseph

      Molloy, Michael

      Rea, Rt. Hon. Russell (South Shields)

      Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent)

      Molteno, Percy Alport

      Rea, Walter Russell (Scarborough)

      Waring, Walter

      Money, L. G. Chiozza

      Reddy, Michael

      Warner, Sir Thomas Courtenay

      Mooney, John J.

      Redmond, John E. (Waterford)

      Wason, Rt. Hon. E. (Clackmannan)

      Morgan, George Hay

      Redmond, William (Clare, E.)

      Wedgwood, Josiah C.

      Worrell, Philip

      Redmond, William Archer (Tyrone, E.)

      White, J. Dundas (Glasgow, Tradeston)

      Morison, Hector

      Rendall, Athelstan

      White, Patrick (Meath, North)

      Morton, Aipheus Cleophas

      Richardson, Albion (Peckham)

      Whitehouse, John Howard

      Muldoon, John

      Richardson, Thomas (Whitehaven)

      Whittaker, Rt. Hon. Sir Thomas P.

      Munro-Ferguson, Rt. Hon. R. C.

      Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)

      Whyte, A. F. (Perth)

      Murray, Captain Hon. Arthur C.

      Roberts, Sir J. H. (Denbighs)

      Wiles, Thomas

      Nannetti, Joseph P.

      Robertson, John M. (Tyneslde)

      Wilkie, Alexander

      Needham, Christopher T.

      Robinson, Sidney

      Williams, John (Glamorgan)

      Neilson, Francis

      Roch, Walter F. (Pembroke)

      Williams, Llewellyn (Carmarthen)

      Nolan, Joseph

      Roche, Augustine (Louth)

      Williams, Penry (Middlesbrough)

      Norton, Captain Cecil W.

      Roe, Sir Thomas

      Wilson, Hon. G. G. (Hull, W.)

      Nugent, Sir Walter Richard

      Rowlands, James

      Wilson, Rt. Hon. J. W. (Worcs., N.)

      Nuttall, Harry

      Rowntree, Arnold

      Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)

      O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

      Russell, Rt. Hon. Thomas W.

      Winfrey, Richard

      O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)

      Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland)

      Wood, Rt. Hon. T. McKinnon (Glas.)

      O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)

      Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees)

      Young, Samuel (Cavan, E.)

      O'Doherty, Philip

      Scanlan, Thomas

      Young, William (Perth, East)

      O'Donnell, Thomas

      Schwann, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles E.

      Yoxall, Sir James Henry

      Ogden, Fred

      Scott, A MacCallum (Glas., Bridgeton)

      O'Kelly, Edward P. (Wicklow, W.)

      Seely, Col. Rt. Hon. J. E. B.

      TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr.

      O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N.)

      Sheehy, David

      W. Jones and Mr. H. Webb.

      O'Malley, William

      Sherwell, Arthur James

      NOES.

      Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

      Campbell, Rt. Hon. J. (Dublin Univ.)

      Fisher, Rt. Hon. W. Hayes

      Aitken, Sir William M.

      Campion, W. R.

      Fleming, Valentine

      Amery, L. C. M. S.

      Carlile, Sir Edward Hildred

      Forster, Henry William

      Anson, Rt. Hon. Sir William R.

      Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward H.

      Foster, Philip Staveley

      Archer-Shee, Major Martin

      Cassel, Felix

      Gastrell, Major W. Houghton

      Ashley, W. W.

      Castlereagh, Viscount

      Gibbs, George Abraham

      Astor, Waldorf

      Cave, George

      Goldman, Charles Sydney

      Baird, John Lawrence

      Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

      Goldsmith, Frank

      Balcarres, Lord

      Chaloner, Col. R. G. W.

      Gordon, John (Londonderry, South)

      Baldwin, Stanley

      Chambers, James

      Gordon, Hon. John Edward (Brighton)

      Banbury, Sir Frederick George

      Clay, Captain H. H. Spender

      Goulding, Edward Alfred

      Barnston, Harry

      Clive, Captain Percy Archer

      Greene, Walter Raymond

      Barrie, Hugh T.

      Clyde, James Avon

      Gretton, John

      Bathurst, Charles (Wilts, Wilton)

      Coates, Major Sir Edward Feetham

      Guinness, Hon. Rupert (Essex, S.E.)

      Beach, Hon. Michael Hugh Hicks

      Cooper, Richard Ashmole

      Guinness, Hon. W. E. (Bury S. Edmunds)

      Beckett, Hon. Gervase

      Courthope, George Loyd

      Gwynne, R. S. (Sussex, Eastbourne)

      Benn, Arthur Shirley (Plymouth)

      Craig, Charles Curtis (Antrim, S.)

      Haddock, George Bahr

      Bentinck, Lord H. Cavendish-

      Craig, Captain James (Down, E.)

      Hall, D. B. (Isle of Wight)

      Beresford, Lord C.

      Craig, Norman (Kent, Thanet)

      Hall, Fred (Dulwich)

      Bigland, Alfred

      Craik, Sir Henry

      Hamersley, Alfred St. George

      Bird, Alfred

      Crichton-Stuart, Lord Ninian

      Hamilton, Marquess of (Londonderry)

      Boles, Lieut.-Col. Dennis Fortescue

      Dalziel, Davison (Brixton)

      Hardy, Rt. Hon. Laurence

      Boscawen, Sir Arthur S. T. Griffith-

      Dickson, Rt. Hon. C. S.

      Harrison-Broadley, H. B.

      Boyle, William (Norfolk, Mid)

      Dixon, Charles Harvey

      Helmsley, Viscount

      Boyton, James

      Doughty, Sir George

      Henderson, Major H. (Abingdon)

      Bridgeman, W. Clive

      Duke, Henry Edward

      Herbert, Hon. A. (Somerset, S.)

      Bull, Sir William James

      Eyres-Monsell, B. M.

      Hewins, William Albert Samuel

      Burn, Col. C. R.

      Faber, George Denison (Clapham)

      Hickman, Colonel Thomas E.

      Butcher, John George

      Fell, Arthur

      Hill, Sir Clement L.

      Campbell, Capt. Duncan F. (Ayr, N.)

      Fetherstonhaugh, Godfrey

      Hills, John Waller

      1208

      1209

      Hill-Wood, Samuel

      Malcolm, Ian

      Spear, Sir John Ward

      Hoare, Samuel John Gurney

      Meysey-Thompson, E. C.

      Stanier, Beville

      Hohler, Gerald Fitzroy

      Middlemore, John Throgmorton

      Stanley, Hon. G. F. (Preston)

      Hope, Harry (Bute)

      Mildmay, Francis Bingham

      Starkey, John Ralph

      Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield)

      Mills, Hon. Charles Thomas

      Staveley-Hill, Henry

      Hope, Major J. A. (Midlothian)

      Moore, William

      Steel-Maitland A. D.

      Horne, E. (Surrey, Guildford)

      Morrison-Bell, Capt. E. F. (Ashburton)

      Stewart, Gershom

      Horner, Andrew Long

      Mount, William Arthur

      Swift, Rigby

      Houston, Robert Paterson

      Neville, Reginald J. N.

      Sykes, Alan John (Ches., Knutsford)

      Hume-Williams, William Ellis

      Newdegate, F. A.

      Sykes, Mark (Hull, Central)

      Hunt, Rowland

      Newton, Harry Kottingham

      Talbot, Lord Edmund

      Hunter, Sir Chas, Rodk.

      Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield)

      Terrell, George (Wilts, N.W.)

      Ingleby, Holcombe

      Nield, Herbert

      Terrell, H. (Gloucester)

      Jackson, Sir John

      Norton-Griffiths, J.

      Thomson, W. Mitchell- (Down, North)

      Jardine, E. (Somerset, E.)

      O'Neill, Hon. A. E. B. (Antrim, Mid)

      Thynne, Lord A.

      Jessel, Captain Herbert M.

      Orde-Powlett, Hon. W. G. A.

      Tobin, Alfred Aspinall

      Joynson-Hicks, William

      Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William

      Touche, George Alexander

      Kebty-Fletcher, J. R.

      Parkes, Ebenezer

      Tryon, Captain George Clement

      Kerr-Smiley, Peter Kerr

      Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington)

      Tullibardine, Marquess of

      Kerry, Earl of

      Peto, Basil Edward

      Valentia, Viscount

      Kimber, Sir Henry

      Pole-Carew, Sir R.

      Ward, Arnold (Herts, Watford)

      Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement

      Pollock, Ernest Murray

      Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid.)

      Larmor, Sir J.

      Pryce-Jones, Col. E.

      Wheler, Granville C. H.

      Law, Rt. Hon. A. Bonar (Bootle)

      Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel

      White, Major G. D. (Lancs., Southport)

      Lawson, Hon. H. (T. H'mts., Mile End)

      Remnant, James Farquharson

      Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.)

      Lewisham, Viscount

      Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall)

      Wills, Sir Gilbert

      Lloyd, G. A.

      Rolleston, Sir John

      Winterton, Earl

      Locker-Lampson, G. (Salisbury)

      Ronaldshay, Earl of

      Wolmer, Viscount

      Locker-Lampson, O. (Ramsey)

      Rothschild, Lionel D.

      Wood, Hon. E. F. L. (Yorks, Rlpon)

      Lockwood, Rt. Hon. Lt.-Col. A. R.

      Rutherford, John (Lancs., Darwen)

      Wood, John (Stalybridge)

      Long, Rt. Hon. Walter

      Rutherford, Watson (L'pool, W. Derby)

      Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-

      Lonsdale, Sir John Brownlee

      Salter, Arthur Clavell

      Wright, Henry Fitzherbert

      Lowe, Sir F. W. (Birm., Edgbaston)

      Samuel, Sir Harry (Norwood)

      Yate, Colonel C. E.

      Lyttelton, Hon. J. C. (Droitwich)

      Sanders, Robert Arthur

      Yerburgh, Robert A.

      MacCaw, Wm. J. MacGeagh

      Sassoon, Sir Philip

      Younger, Sir George

      Mackinder, Halford J.

      Scott, Leslie (Liverpool, Exchange)

      Macmaster, Donald

      Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

      TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr.

      McNeill, Ronald (Kent, St. Augustine's)

      Smith, Harold (Warrington)

      Worthington-Evans and Mr. Lane-Fox.

      Question put, "That the Clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill."
      The Committee divided: Ayes 295; Noes, 191.

      Division No. 346.]

      AYES.

      [12.0 m.

      Abraham, William (Dublin, Harbour)

      Carr-Gomm, H. W.

      Esslemont, George Birnie

      Abraham, Rt. Hon. William (Rhondda)

      Cawley, Sir Frederick (Prestwich)

      Falconer, James

      Acland, Francis Dyke

      Cawley, Harold T. (Heywood)

      Farrell, James Patrick

      Adamson, William

      Chancellor, Henry George

      Fenwick, Rt. Hon. Charles

      Addison, Dr. Christopher

      Chapple, Dr. William Allen

      Ffrench, Peter

      Adkins, Sir W. Ryland D.

      Clancy, John Joseph

      Field, William

      Agnew, Sir George William

      Clough, William

      Fiennes, Hon. Eustace Edward

      Allen, Arthur A. (Dumbarton)

      Clynes, John R.

      Fitzgibbon, John

      Allen, Rt. Hon. Charles P. (Stroud)

      Collins, Godfrey P. (Greenock)

      Flavin, Michael Joseph

      Arnold, Sydney

      Compton-Rickett, Rt. Hon. Sir J.

      George, Rt. Hon. David Lloyd

      Baker, Harold T. (Accrington)

      Condon, Thomas Joseph

      Gill, Alfred Henry

      Baker, Joseph A. (Finsbury, E.)

      Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.

      Ginneil, Laurence

      Balfour, Sir Robert (Lanark)

      Cotton, William Francis

      Gladstone, W. G. C.

      Baring, Sir Godfrey (Barnstaple)

      Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth)

      Glanville, Harold James

      Barlow, Sir John Emmott (Somerset

      Crawshay-Williams, Eliot

      Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford

      Barnes, George N.

      Crooks, William

      Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward

      Barran, Sir John N. (Hawick B.)

      Crumley, Patrick

      Griffith, Ellis Jones

      Barran, Rowland Hurst (Leeds, N.)

      Cullinan, J.

      Guest. Major Hon. C. H. C. (Pembroke)

      Barton, William

      Dalziel, Rt. Hon. Sir J. H. (Kirkcaldy)

      Guest, Hon. Frederick E. (Dorset, E.)

      Beauchamp, Sir Edward

      Davies, E. William (Eifion)

      Gulland, John William

      Beck, Arthur Cecil

      Davies, Timothy (Lincs., Louth)

      Gwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway)

      Benn, W. W. (T. Hamlets, S. George)

      Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.)

      Hackett, John

      Bentham, George Jackson

      Dawes, James Arthur

      Hall, F. (Yorks, Normanton)

      Bethell, Sir John Henry

      De Forest, Baron

      Hancock, John George

      Black, Arthur W.

      Delany, William

      Harcourt, Rt. Hon. L. (Rossendale)

      Boland, John Pius

      Denman, Hon R. D.

      Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose)

      Booth, Frederick Handel

      Devlin, Joseph

      Harmsworth, R. L. (Caithness-shire)

      Bowerman, Charles W.

      Dickinson, W. H.

      Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale)

      Boyle, Daniel (Mayo, North)

      Donelan, Captain A.

      Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, West)

      Brace, William

      Doris, William

      Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N.E.)

      Brady, Patrick Joseph

      Duffy, William J.

      Haslam, James (Derbyshire)

      Brocklehurst, W. B.

      Duncan, J. Hastings (Yorks, Otley)

      Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth)

      Bryce, John Annan

      Edwards, Clement (Glamorgan, E.)

      Havelock-Allan, Sir Henry

      Buckmaster, Stanley O.

      Edwards, John Hugh (Glamorgan, Mid)

      Hayden, John Patrick

      Burke, E. Haviland-

      Elverston, Sir Harold

      Hazleton, Richard

      Burns, Rt. Hon. John

      Esmonde, Dr. John (Tipperary, N.)

      Helme, Sir Norval Watson

      Buxton, Rt. Hon. S. C. (Poplar)

      Esmonde, Sir Thomas (Wexford, N.)

      Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

      Bytes, Sir William Pollard

      Essex, Richard Walter

      Henry, Sir Charles

      Herbert, Col. Sir Ivor (Mon. S.)

      Moltene, Percy Alport

      Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside)

      Higham, John Sharp

      Money, L. G. Chiozza

      Robinson, Sidney

      Hinds, John

      Mooney, John J.

      Roche, Augustine (Louth)

      Hobhouse, Rt. Hon. Charles E. H.

      Morgan, George Hay

      Roe, Sir Thomas

      Hodge, John

      Morrell, Philip

      Rowlands, James

      Hogge, James Myles

      Morison, Hector

      Rowntree, Arnold

      Holmes, Daniel Turner

      Morton, Alpheus Cleophas

      Russell, Rt. Hon. Thomas W.

      Holt, Richard Durning

      Muldoon, John

      Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland)

      Hope, John Deans (Haddington)

      Munro-Ferguson, Rt. Hon. R. C.

      Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees)

      Home, C. Silvester (Ipswich)

      Murray, Capt. Hon. Arthur C.

      Seanlan, Thomas

      Howard, Hon. Geoffrey

      Nannetti, Joseph P.

      Schwann, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles E.

      Hudson, Walter

      Needham, Christopher T.

      Scott, A. MacCallum (Glas., Bridgeton)

      Hughes, Spencer Leigh

      Neilson, Francis

      Seely, Col. Rt. Hon. J. E. B.

      Illingworth, Percy H.

      Nolan, Joseph

      Sheehy, David

      Isaacs, Rt. Hon. Sir Rufus

      Norton, Captain Cecil William

      Sherwell, Arthur James

      John, Edward Thomas

      Nugent, Sir Walter Richard

      Shortt, Edward

      Jones, Edgar (Merthyr Tydvil)

      Nuttall, Harry

      Simon, Sir Arthur Allsebrook

      Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)

      O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

      Smith, Albert (Lancs, Clitheroe)

      Jones, J. Towyn (Carmarthen, East)

      O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)

      Smith, H. B. Lees (Northampton)

      Jones, Leif Straiten (Notts, Rushcliffe)

      O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)

      Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.)

      Jones, W. S. Glyn- (Stepney)

      O'Doherty, Philip

      Snowden, Philip

      Jowett, Frederick William

      O'Donnell, Thomas

      Soames, Arthur Wellesley

      Joyce, Michael

      Ogden, Fred

      Stanley, Albert (Staffs, N.W.)

      Keating, Matthew

      O'Kelly, Edward P. (Wicklow, W.)

      Strauss, Edward A. (Southwark, West)

      Kellaway, Frederick George

      O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N.)

      Sutherland, John E.

      Kennedy, Vincent Paul

      O'Malley, William

      Sutton, John E.

      Kilbride, Denis

      O'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, S.)

      Taylor, John W. (Durham)

      King, J.

      O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

      Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)

      Lambert, Rt. Hon. G. (Devon, S. Molton)

      O'Shee, James John

      Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton)

      Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade)

      O'Sullivan, Timothy

      Trevelyan, Charles Philips

      Lardner, James Carrige Rushe

      Outhwaite, R. L.

      Ure, Rt. Hon. Alexander

      Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, West)

      Palmer, Godfrey Mark

      Verney, Sir Harry

      Lawson, Sir W. (Cumb'rld, Cockerm'th)

      Parker, James (Halifax)

      Wadsworth, John

      Leach, Charles

      Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek)

      Walsh, Stephen (Lancs., Ince)

      Levy, Sir Maurice

      Pearce, William (Limehouse)

      Walton, Sir Joseph

      Low, Sir Frederick (Norwich)

      Pease, Rt. Hon. Joseph A. (Rotherham)

      Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent)

      Lundon, Thomas

      Philipps, Col. Ivor (Southampton)

      Waring, Walter

      Lyell, Charles Henry

      Phillips, John (Longford, S.)

      Warner, Sir Thomas Courtenay

      Lynch, Arthur Alfred

      Pirie, Duncan V.

      Wason, Rt. Hon. E. (Clackmannan)

      Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester)

      Pointer, Joseph

      Wedgwood, Josiah C.

      Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk Burghs)

      Pollard, Sir George H.

      White, J. Dundas (Glasgow, Tradeston)

      McGhee, Richard

      Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H.

      White, Patrick (Meath, North)

      Maclean, Donald

      Power, Patrick Joseph

      Whitehouse, John Howard

      Macnamara, Rt. Hon. Dr. T. J.

      Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central)

      Whittakcr, Rt. Hon. Sir Thomas P.

      MacNeill, J. G. Swift (Donegal, South)

      Price, Sir Robert J. (Norfolk, E.)

      Whyte, Alexander F.

      Macpherson, James Ian

      Priestley, Sir Arthur (Grantham)

      Wiles, Thomas

      MacVeagh, Jeremiah

      Primrose, Hon. Nell James

      Wilkie, Alexander

      M'Callum, Sir John M.

      Pringle, William M. R.

      Williams, J. (Glamorgan)

      M'Kean, John

      Radford, George Heynes

      Williams, Llewelyn (Carmarthen)

      McKenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald

      Rattan, Peter Wilson

      Williams, Penry (Middlesbrough)

      M'Laren, Hon. H. D. (Leics.)

      Rea, Rt. Hon. Russell (South Shields)

      Wilson, Hon. G. G. (Hull, W.)

      M'Laren, Hon. F. W. S. (Lincs., Spalding)

      Rea, Walter Russell (Scarborough)

      Wilson, Rt. Hon. J. W. (Worcs., N.)

      M'Micking, Major Gilbert

      Reddy, Michael

      Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)

      Manfield, Hairy

      Redmond, John E. (Waterford)

      Winfrey, Richard

      Martin, Joseph

      Redmond, William (Clare, E.)

      Wood, Rt. Hon. T. McKinnon (Glas.)

      Masterman, Rt. Hon. C. F. G.

      Redmond, William Archer (Tyrone, E.)

      Young, Samuel (Cavan, East)

      Meagher, Michael

      Rendall, Athelstan

      Young, William (Perth, East)

      Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.)

      Richardson, Albion (Peckham)

      Menzies, Sir Walter

      Richardson, Thomas (Whitehaven)

      TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr.

      Millar, James Duncan

      Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)

      W. Jones and Mr. H. Webb.

      Molloy, Michael

      Roberts, Sir J. H. (Denbighs)

      NOES.

      Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

      Boles, Lieut.-Col. Dennis Fortescue

      Clyde, James Avon

      Aitken, Sir William Max

      Boscawen, Sir Arthur S. T. Griffith-

      Coates, Major Sir Edward Feetham

      Amery, L. C. M. S.

      Boyle, William (Norfolk, Mid)

      Cooper, Richard Ashmole

      Anson, Rt. Hon. Sir William R.

      Boyton, James

      Courthope, George Loyd

      Archer-Shee, Major Martin

      Bridgeman, William Clive

      Craig, Charles Curtis (Antrim, S.)

      Ashley, Wilfrid W.

      Bull, Sir William James

      Craig, Captain James (Down, E.)

      Astor, Waldorf

      Burn, Colonel C. R.

      Craig, Norman (Kent, Thanet)

      Baird, John Lawrence

      Butcher, John George

      Craik, Sir Henry

      Balcarres, Lord

      Campbell, Rt. Hon. J. (Dublin Univ.)

      Crichton-Stuart, Lord Ninian

      Baldwin, Stanley

      Campion, W. R.

      Dalziel, Davison (Brixton)

      Banbury, Sir Frederick George

      Carlile, Sir Edward Hildred

      Dickson, Rt. Hon. C. S.

      Barnston, Harry

      Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward H.

      Dixon, Charles Harvey

      Barrie, H. T.

      Cassel, Felix

      Doughty, Sir George

      Bathurst, Charles (Wilts, Wilton)

      Castlereagh, Viscount

      Duke, Henry Edward

      Beach, Hon. Michael Hugh Hicks

      Cave, George

      Eyres-Monsell, B. M.

      Beckett, Hon. Gervase

      Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

      Faber, George D. (Clapham)

      Benn, Arthur Shirley (Plymouth)

      Chaloner, Col. R. G. W.

      Fell, Arthur

      Bentinck, Lord H. Cavendish-

      Chambers, James

      Fetherstonhaugh, Godfrey

      Bigland, Alfred

      Clay, Captain H. H. Spender

      Fleming, Valentine

      Bird, Alfred

      Clive, Captain Percy Archer

      Gastrell, Major W. Houghton

      1212

      1213

      Gibbs, George Abraham

      Lane-Fox, G. R.

      Salter, Arthur Clavell

      Goldman, C. S.

      Larmor, Sir J.

      Samuel, Sir Harry (Norwood)

      Goldsmith, Frank

      Law, Rt. Hon. A. Bonar (Bootle)

      Sanders, Robert Arthur

      Gordon, John (Londonderry, South)

      Lawson, Hon. H. (T. H'mts, Mile End)

      Sassoon, Sir Philip

      Gordon, Rt. Hon. Edward (Brighton)

      Lewisham, Viscount

      Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

      Greene, Walter Raymond

      Lloyd, George Ambrose

      Smith, Harold (Warrington)

      Gretton, John

      Locker-Lampson, G. (Salisbury)

      Spear, Sir John Ward

      Guinness, Hon. Rupert (Essex, S.E.)

      Locker-Lampson, O. (Ramsey)

      Stanler, Beville

      Guinness, Hon. W. E. (Bury S. Edmunds)

      Lockwood, Rt. Hon. Lt.-Col. A. R.

      Stanley, Hon. G. F. (Preston)

      Gwynne, R. S. (Sussex, Eastbourne)

      Long, Rt. Hon. Walter

      Starkey, John Ralph

      Haddock, George Bahr

      Lonsdale, Sir John Brownlee

      Staveley-Hill, Henry

      Hall, D. B. (Isle of Wight)

      Lowe, Sir F. W. (Birm., Edgbaston)

      Steel-Maitland, A. D.

      Hall, Fred (Dulwich)

      Lyttelton, Hon. J. C. (Droitwich)

      Stewart, Gershom

      Hamersley, Alfred St. George

      MacCaw, Wm. J. MacGeagh

      Swift, Rigby

      Hamilton, Marquess of (Londonderry)

      Macmaster, Donald

      Sykes, Allan John (Ches., Knutsford)

      Hardy, Rt. Hon. Laurence

      Malcolm, Ian

      Sykes, Mark (Hull, Central)

      Harrison-Broadley, H. B.

      Meysey-Thompson, E. C.

      Talbot, Lord Edmund

      Helmsley, Viscount

      Middlemore, John Throgmorton

      Terrell, George (Wilts, N.W.)

      Henderson, Major H. (Berks, Abingdon)

      Mildmay, Francis Bingham

      Terrell, Henry (Gloucester)

      Herbert, Hon. A. (Somerset, S.)

      Mills, Hon. Charles Thomas

      Thomson, W. Mitchell- (Down, N.)

      Hewins, William Albert Samuel

      Morrison-Bell, Capt. E. F. (Ashburton)

      Thynne, Lord Alexander

      Hickman, Colonel Thomas E.

      Mount, William Arthur

      Tobin, Alfred Aspinall

      Hill, Sir Clement L.

      Neville, Reginald J. N.

      Touche, George Alexander

      Hills, John Waller

      Newdegate, F. A.

      Tryon, Capt. George Clement

      Hill-Wood, S.

      Newton, Harry Kottingham

      Tallibardine, Marquess of

      Hoare, Samuel John Gurney

      Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield)

      Valentia, Viscount

      Hohler, Gerald Fitzroy

      Nield, Herbert

      Ward, A. S. (Herts, Watford)

      Hope, Harry (Bute)

      Norton-Griffiths, J.

      Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid)

      Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield)

      O'Neill, Hon. A. E. B. (Antrim, Mid)

      Wheler, Granville C. H.

      Hope, Major J. A. (Midlothian)

      Orde-Powlett, Hon. W. G A.

      White, Major G. D. (Lancs., Southport)

      Horne, Edgar (Surrey, Guildford)

      Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William

      Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.)

      Horner, Andrew Long

      Parkes, Ebenezer

      Wills, Sir Gilbert

      Houston, Robert Paterson

      Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington)

      Winterton, Earl

      Hunter, Sir Charles Rodk.

      Peto, Basil Edward

      Wolmer, Viscount

      Ingleby, Holcombe

      Pole-Carew, Sir R.

      Wood, Hon. E. F. L. (Yorks, Ripon)

      Jackson, Sir John

      Pollock, Ernest Murray

      Wood, John (Stalybridge)

      Jardine, Ernest (Somerset, East)

      Pryce-Jones, Colonel E.

      Worthington-Evans, L.

      Jessel, Captain Herbert M.

      Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel

      Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-

      Joynson-Hicks, William

      Remnant, James Farquharson

      Wright, Henry Fitzherbert

      Kebty-Fletcher, J. R.

      Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall)

      Yate, Col. C. E.

      Kerr-Smiley, Peter Kerr

      Rolleston, Sir John

      Yerburgh, Robert A.

      Kerry, Earl of

      Ronaldshay, Earl of

      Younger, Sir George

      Kimber, Sir Henry

      Rothschild, Lionel de

      Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement

      Rutherford, John (Lancs, Darwen)

      TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr.

      Kyffin-Taylor, G.

      Rutherford, W. (Liverpool, W. Derby)

      W. Moore and Mr. R. McNeill.

      CLAUSE 20.—(Irish Church Fund.)
      (1) The Irish Church Temporalities Fund shall belong to the Irish Government, and be managed, administered, and disposed of as directed by Irish Act:
      Provided that all existing charges on that fund guaranteed by the Treasury shall, if and so far as not paid, be paid out of the Exchequer of the United Kingdom, and be made good by means of deductions from the Transferred Sum under this Act in accordance with regulations made by the Treasury.
      (2) The Irish Church Temporalities Fund means the fund under the control of the Land Commission by virtue of the Irish Church Act Amendment Act, 1881.
      Government Amendment: In Sub-section (1) to leave out the words "guaranteed by the Treasury."—[Mr. Herbert Samuel.]
      Question put, "That the Amendment be made."
      The committee divided: Ayes, 292; Noes, 185.

      Division No. 347.]

      AYES.

      [12.14 a.m.

      Abraham, William (Dublin, Harbour)

      Barlow, Sir John Emmott (Somerset)

      Brace, William

      Abraham, Rt. Hon. William (Rhondda)

      Barnes, George N.

      Brady, Patrick Joseph

      Acland, Francis Dyke

      Barran, Sir John N. (Hawick B.)

      Brocklehurst, William B.

      Adamson, William

      Barran, Rowland Hurst (Leeds, N.)

      Bryce, John Annan

      Addison, Dr. Christopher

      Barton, William

      Buckmaster, Stanley O.

      Adkins, Sir W. Ryland D.

      Beauchamp, Sir Edward

      Burke, E. Haviland-

      Agnew, Sir George William

      Beck, Arthur Cecil

      Burns, Rt. Hon. John

      Ainsworth, John Stirling

      Benn, W. W. (T. Hamlets, St. George)

      Buxton, Rt. Hon. S. C. (Poplar)

      Allen, Arthus A. (Dumbarton)

      Bentham, George J.

      Byles, Sir William Pollard

      Allen, Rt. Hon. Charles P. (Stroud)

      Bethell, Sir John Henry

      Carr-Gomm, H. W.

      Arnold, Sydney

      Black, Arthur W.

      Cawley, Sir Frederick (Prestwich)

      Baker, Harold T. (Accrington)

      Boland, John Pius

      Cawley, Harold T. (Heywood)

      Baker, Joseph Allen (Finsbury, E.)

      Booth, Frederick Handel

      Chancellor, Henry George

      Balfour, Sir Robert (Lanark)

      Bowerman, Charles W.

      Chapple, Dr. William Allen

      Baring, Sir Godfrey (Barnstaple)

      Boyle, Daniel (Mayo, North)

      Clancy, John Joseph

      Clough, William

      Jones, Edgar R. (Merthyr Tydvil)

      Pirie, Duncan V.

      Clynes, John R.

      Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)

      Pointer, Joseph

      Collins, Godfrey P. (Greenock)

      Jones, J. Towyn (Carmarthen, East)

      Pollard, Sir George H.

      Compton-Rickett, Rt. Hon. Sir J.

      Jones, Leif Stratten (Notts, Rushcliffe)

      Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H.

      Condon, Thomas Joseph

      Jones, W. S. Glyn- (T. H'mts, Stepney)

      Power, Patrick Joseph

      Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.

      Jowett, Frederick William

      Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central)

      Cotton, William Francis

      Joyce, Michael

      Price, Sir Robert J. (Norfolk, E.)

      Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth)

      Keating, Matthew

      Priestley, Sir Arthur Grantham

      Crawshay-Williams, Eliot

      Kellaway, Frederick George

      Primrose, Hon. Neil James

      Crooks, William

      Kennedy, Vincent Paul

      Pringle, William M. R.

      Crumley, Patrick

      Kilbride, Denis

      Radford, G. H.

      Cullinan, John

      King, Joseph

      Raffan, Peter Wilson

      Dalziel, Rt. Hon. Sir J. H. (Kirkcaldy)

      Lambert, Rt. Hon. G. (Devon, S. Molton)

      Rea, Rt. Hon. Russell (South Shields)

      Davies, Ellis William (Eifion)

      Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade)

      Rea, Walter Russell (Scarborough)

      Davies, Timothy (Lincs., Louth)

      Lardner, James Carrige Rushe

      Reddy, Michael

      Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.)

      Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, W.)

      Redmond, John E. (Waterford)

      Dawes, J. A.

      Lawson, Sir W. (Cumb'rld, Cockerm'th)

      Redmond, William (Clare, E.)

      De Forest, Baron

      Leach, Charles

      Redmond, William Archer (Tyrone, E.)

      Delany, William

      Levy, Sir Maurice

      Rendall, Athelstan

      Denman, Hon. Richard Douglas

      Lewis, John Herbert

      Richardson, Albion (Peckham)

      Devlin, Joseph

      Low, Sir Frederick (Norwich)

      Richardson, Thomas (Whitehaven)

      Donelan, Captain A.

      Lundon, Thomas

      Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)

      Doris, William

      Lyell, Charles Henry

      Roberts, Sir J. H. (Denbighs)

      Duffy, William J.

      Lynch, Arthur Alfred

      Robertson, John M. (Tyneside)

      Duncan, J. Hastings (Yorks, Otley)

      Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester)

      Robinson, Sidney

      Edwards, Clement (Glamorgan)

      Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk Burghs)

      Roche, Walter F.

      Edwards, John Hugh (Glamorgan, Mid)

      McGhee, Richard

      Roche, Augustine (Louth)

      Elverston, Sir Harold

      Maclean, Donald

      Roe, Sir Thomas

      Esmonde, Dr. John (Tipperary, N.)

      Macnamara, Rt. Hon. Dr. T. J.

      Rowlands, James

      Esmonde, Sir Thomas (Wexford, N.)

      MacNeill, J. G. Swift (Donegal, South)

      Rowntree, Arnold

      Essex, Richard Walter

      Macpherson, James Ian

      Russell, Rt. Hon. Thomas W.

      Esslemont, George Birnie

      MacVeagh, Jeremiah

      Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland)

      Falconer, James

      M'Callum, Sir John M.

      Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees)

      Farrell, James Patrick

      M'Curdy, Charles Albert

      Scanlan, Thomas

      Fenwick, Rt. Hon. Charles

      M'Kean, John

      Schwann, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles E.

      Ffrench, Peter

      McKenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald

      Scott, A. MacCallum (Glas., Bridgeton)

      Field, William

      M'Laren, Hon. H. D. (Leics.)

      Seely, Col. Rt. Hon. J. E. B.

      Fiennes, Hon. Eustace Edward

      M'Laren, Hon. F. W. S. (Lincs., Spalding)

      Sheehy, David

      Fitzgibbon, John

      M'Micking, Major Gilbert

      Shortt, Edward

      Flavin, Michael Joseph

      Manfield, Harry

      Simon, Sir John Allsebrook

      Gill, Alfred Henry

      Martin, Joseph

      Smith, Albert (Lancs., Clitheroe)

      Ginnell, Laurence

      Masterman, Rt. Hon. C. F. G.

      Smith, H. B. Lees (Northampton)

      Gladstone, W. G. C.

      Meagher, Michael

      Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.)

      Glanville, Harold James

      Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.)

      Snowden, Philip

      Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford

      Menzies, Sir Walter

      Soames, Arthur Wellesley

      Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward

      Millar, James Duncan

      Strauss, Edward A. (Southwark, West)

      Griffith, Ellis Jones

      Molloy, Michael

      Sutherland, John E.

      Guest, Major Hon. C. H. C. (Pembroke)

      Molteno, Percy Alport

      Sutton, John E.

      Guest, Hon. Frederick E. (Dorset, E.)

      Money, L. G. Chiozza

      Taylor, John W. (Durham)

      Gulland, John William

      Mooney, John J.

      Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)

      Givynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway)

      Morgan, George Hay

      Tennant, Harold John

      Hackett, John

      Worrell, Philip

      Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton)

      Hall, F. (Yorks, Normanton)

      Morison, Hector

      Trevelyan, Charles Philips

      Hancock, John George

      Morton, Alpheus Cleophas

      Ure, Rt. Hon. Alexander

      Harcourt, Rt. Hon. L. (Rossendale)

      Munro-Ferguson, Rt. Hon. R. C.

      Verney, Sir Harry

      Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose)

      Muldoon, John

      Wadsworth, John

      Harmsworth, R. L. (Caithness-shire)

      Murray, Capt. Hon. Arthur C.

      Walsh, Stephen (Lancs., Ince)

      Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale)

      Nannetti, Joseph P.

      Walton, Sir Joseph

      Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, W.)

      Needham, Christopher T

      Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent)

      Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N.E.)

      Neilson, Francis

      Waring, Walter

      Haslam, James (Derbyshire)

      Nolan, Joseph

      Warner, Sir Thomas Courtenay

      Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth)

      Norton, Capt. Cecil W.

      Wason, Rt. Hon. E. (Clackmannan)

      Havelock-Allan, Sir Henry

      Nugent, Sir Walter Richard

      Wedgwood, Josiah C.

      Hayden, John Patrick

      Nuttall, Harry

      White, J. Dundas (Glasgow, Tradeston)

      Hazleton, Richard

      O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

      White, Patrick (Meath, North)

      Helme, Sir Norval Watson

      O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)

      Whitehouse, John Howard

      Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

      O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)

      Whittaker, Rt. Hon. Sir Thomas P.

      Henry, Sir Charles

      O'Doherty, Philip

      Whyte, Alexander F. (Perth)

      Herbert, Col. Sir Ivor (Mon., S.)

      O'Donnell, Thomas

      Wiles, Thomas

      Higham, John Sharp

      Ogden, Fred

      Wilkie, Alexander

      Hinds, John

      O'Kelly, Edward P. (Wicklow, W.)

      Williams, Llewelyn (Carmarthen)

      Hobhouse, Rt. Hon. Charles E. H.

      O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N.)

      Williams, Penry (Middlesbrough)

      Hodge, John

      O'Malley, William

      Wilson, Hon. G. G. (Hull W.)

      Hogge, James Myles

      O'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, S.)

      Wilson, Rt. Hon. J. W. (Worcs., N.)

      Holmes, Daniel Turner

      O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

      Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)

      Holt, Richard Durning

      O'Shee, James John

      Winfrey, Richard

      Hope, John Deans (Haddington)

      O'Sullivan, Timothy

      Wood, Rt. Hon. T. Mckinnon (Glas.)

      Horne, C. Silvester (Ipswich)

      Outhwaite, R. L.

      Young, Samuel (Cavan, East)

      Howard, Hon. Geoffrey

      Palmer, Godfrey Mark

      Young, William (Perth, East)

      Hudson, Walter

      Parker, James (Halifax)

      Yoxall, Sir James Henry

      Hughes, Spencer Leigh

      Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek)

      Illingworth Percy H.

      Pease, Rt. Hon. Joseph A. (Rotherham)

      TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr.

      Isaacs, Rt. Hon. Sir Rufus

      Philipps, Col. Ivor (Southampton)

      W. Jones and Mr. H. Webb.

      John, Edward Thomas

      Phillips, John (Longford, S.)

      1216

      1217

      NOES.

      Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

      Gretton, John

      Newdegate, F. A.

      Aitken, Sir William Max

      Guinness, Hon. Rupert (Essex, S.E.)

      Newton, Harry Kottingham

      Amery, L. C. M. S.

      Guinness, Hon. W. E. (Bury S. Edmunds)

      Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield)

      Anson, Rt. Hon. Sir-William R.

      Gwynne, R. S. (Sussex, Eastbourne)

      Nield, Herbert

      Archer-Shee, Major Martin

      Hall, D. B. (Isle of Wight)

      O'Neill, Hon. A. E. B. (Antrim, Mid)

      Ashley, Wilfrid W.

      Hall, Fred (Dulwich)

      Orde-Powlett, Hon. W. G. A.

      Astor, Waldorf

      Hamersley, Alfred St. George

      Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William

      Baird, John Lawrence

      Hamilton, Marquess of (Londonderry)

      Parkes, Ebenezer

      Balcarres, Lord

      Hardy, Rt. Hon. Laurence

      Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington)

      Baldwin, Stanley

      Harrison-Broadley, H. B.

      Peto, Basil Edward

      Banbury, Sir Frederick George

      Helmsley, Viscount

      Pollock, Ernest Murray

      Barnston, Harry

      Henderson, Major H. (Berks, Abingdon)

      Pryce-Jones, Colonel E.

      Barrie, H. T.

      Herbert, Hon. A. (Somerset, S.)

      Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel

      Bathurst, Charles (Wilts, Wilton)

      Hewins, William Albert Samuel

      Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall)

      Beach, Hon. Michael Hugh Hicks

      Hickman, Colonel Thomas E.

      Rolleston, Sir John

      Beckett, Hon. Gervase

      Hill, Sir Clement L.

      Ronaldshay, Earl of

      Benn, Arthur Shirley (Plymouth)

      Hills, John Waller

      Rothschild, Lionel de

      Bentinck, Lord Henry Cavendish-

      Hill-Wood, Samuel

      Rutherford, John (Lancs., Darwen)

      Bigland, Alfred

      Hoare, Samuel John Gurney

      Rutherford, Watson (L'pool, W. Derby)

      Bird, Alfred

      Hohler, Gerald Fitzroy

      Salter, Arthur Clavell

      Boles, Lieut.-Col. Dennis Fortescue

      Hope, Harry (Bute)

      Samuel, Sir Harry (Norwood)

      Boscawen, Sir Arthur S. T. Griffith-

      Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield)

      Sanders, Robert Arthur

      Boyle, William (Norfolk, Mid)

      Hope, Major J. A. (Midlothian)

      Sassoon, Sir Philip

      Boyton, James

      Horne, Edgar (Surrey, Guildford)

      Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

      Bridgeman, William Clive

      Horner, Andrew Long

      Smith, Harold (Warrington)

      Bull, Sir William James

      Houston, Robert Paterson

      Spear, Sir John Ward

      Burn, Colonel C. R.

      Hunt, Rowland

      Stanier, Beville

      Butcher, John George

      Hunter, Sir Charles Rodk.

      Stanley, Hon. G. F. (Preston)

      Campbell, Capt. Duncan F. (Ayr, N.)

      Ingleby, Holcombe

      Starkey, John Ralph

      Campbell, Rt. Hon. J. (Dublin Univ.)

      Jackson, Sir John

      Staveley-Hill, Henry

      Campion, W. R.

      Jardine, Ernest (Somerset, East)

      Steel-Maitland, A. D.

      Carlile, Sir Edward Hildred

      Jessel, Captain Herbert M.

      Stewart, Gershom

      Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward H.

      Joynson-Hicks, William

      Swift, Rigby

      Cassel, Felix

      Kebty-Fletcher, J. R.

      Sykes, Alan John (Ches., Knutsford)

      Castlereagh, Viscount

      Kerr-Smiley, Peter Kerr

      Sykes, Mark (Hull, Central)

      Cave, George

      Kerry, Earl of

      Talbot, Lord Edmund

      Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

      Kimber, Sir Henry

      Terrell, G. (Wilts, N.W.)

      Chaloner, Col. R. G. W.

      Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement

      Terrell, Henry (Gloucester)

      Chambers, James

      Lane-Fox, G. R.

      Thomson, W. Mitchell- (Down, N.)

      Clay, Captain H. H. Spender

      Larmor, Sir J.

      Thynne, Lord Alexander

      Clive, Captain Percy Archer

      Law, Rt. Hon. A. Bonar (Bootle)

      Tobin, Alfred Aspinall

      Coates, Major Sir Edward Feetham)

      Lawson, Hon. H. (T. H'mts, Mile End)

      Touche, George Alexander

      Cooper, Richard Ashmole

      Lewisham, Viscount

      Tryon, Captain George Clement

      Courthope, George Loyd

      Lloyd, George Ambrose

      Tullibardine, Marquess of

      Craig, Charles Curtis (Antrim, S.)

      Locker-Lampson, G. (Salisbury)

      Valentia, Viscount

      Craig, Captain James (Down, E.)

      Locker-Lampson, O. (Ramsey)

      Ward, A. S. (Herts, Watford)

      Craig, Norman (Kent, Thanet)

      Lockwood, Rt. Hon. Lt.-Col. A. R.

      Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid)

      Craik, Sir Henry

      Lonsdale, Sir John Brownlee

      Wheler, Granville C. H.

      Crichton-Stuart, Lord Ninian

      Lowe, Sir F. W. (Birm., Edgbaston)

      White, Major G. D. (Lancs., Southport)

      Dalziel, Davison (Brixton)

      Lyttleton, Hon. J. C. (Droitwich)

      Wills, Sir Gilbert

      Dixon, Charles Harvey

      MacCaw, William J. MacGeagh

      Wolmer, Viscount

      Doughty, Sir George

      Mackinder, Halford J.

      Wood, Hon. E. F. L. (Yorks, Ripon)

      Duke, Henry Edward

      Macmaster, Donald

      Wood, John (Stalybridge)

      Eyres-Monsell, Bolton M.

      McNeill, Ronald (Kent, St. Augustine's)

      Worthington-Evans, L.

      Fetherstonhaugh, Godfrey

      Malcolm, Ian

      Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-

      Fleming, Valentine

      Meysey-Thompson, E. C.

      Wright, Henry Fitzherbert

      Forster, Henry William

      Middlemore, John Throgmorton

      Yate, Col. C. E.

      Gibbs, George Abraham

      Mildmay, Francis Bingham

      Yerburgh, Robert A.

      Goldman, Charles Sydney

      Mills, Hon. Charles Thomas

      Goldsmith, Frank

      Moore, William

      Gordon, John (Londonderry, South)

      Morrison-Bell, Capt. E. F. (Ashburton)

      TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr.

      Gordon, Hon. John Edward (Brighton)

      Mount, William Arthur

      Scott Dickson and Mr. Avon Clyde.

      Greene, Walter Raymond

      Neville, Reginald J. N.

      Question put, "That the Clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill."
      The Committee divided: Ayes, 288; Noes, 179.

      Division No. 348.]

      AYES.

      [12.20 a.m.

      Abraham, William (Dublin, Harbour)

      Allen, Rt. Hon. Charles P. (Stroud)

      Barran, Rowland Hurst (Leeds, N.)

      Abraham, Rt. Hon. William (Rhondda)

      Arnold, Sydney

      Barton, William

      Acland, Francis Dyke

      Baker, Harold T. (Accrington)

      Beauchamp, Sir Edward

      Adamson, William

      Baker, Joseph Allen (Finsbury, E.)

      Beck, Arthur Cecil

      Addison, Dr. C.

      Balfour, Sir Robert (Lanark)

      Benn, W. W. (T. H'mts., St. George)

      Adkins, Sir W. Ryland D.

      Baring, Sir Godfrey (Barnstaple)

      Bentham, George Jackson

      Agnew, Sir George William

      Barlow, Sir John Emmott (Somerset)

      Bethell, Sir John Henry

      Ainsworth, John Stirling

      Barnes, George N.

      Black, Arthur W.

      Allen, Arthur A. (Dumbarton)

      Barran, Sir J. N. (Hawick Burghs)

      Boland, John Pius

      Booth, Frederick Handel

      Henry, Sir Charles

      O'Kelly, Edward P. (Wicklow, W.)

      Bowerman, Charles W.

      Higham, John Sharp

      O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N.)

      Boyle, Daniel (Mayo, North)

      Hinds, John

      O'Malley, William

      Brace, William

      Hobhouse, Rt. Hon. Charles E. H.

      O'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, S.)

      Brady, Patrick Joseph

      Hodge, John

      O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

      Brocklehurst, William B.

      Hogge, James Myles

      O'Shee, James John

      Bryce, John Annan

      Holmes, Daniel Turner

      O'Sullivan, Timothy

      Buckmaster, Stanley O.

      Holt, Richard Durning

      Outhwaite, R. L.

      Burke, E. Haviland-

      Hope, John Deans (Haddington)

      Palmer, Godfrey Mark

      Burns, Rt. Hon. John

      Home, Charles Silvester (Ipswich)

      Parker, James (Halifax)

      Buxton, Rt. Hon. S. C. (Poplar)

      Hudson, Walter

      Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek)

      Byles, Sir William Pollard

      Hughes, Spencer Leigh

      Pease, Rt. Hon. Joseph A. (Rotherham)

      Carr-Gomm, H. W.

      Illingworth, Percy H.

      Philipps, Col. Ivor (Southampton)

      Cawley, Sir Frederick (Prestwich)

      Isaacs, Rt. Hon. Sir Rufus

      Phillips, John (Longford, S.)

      Cawley, H. T. (Lancs., Heywood)

      John, Edward Thomas

      Pirie, Duncan V.

      Chancellor, H. G.

      Jones, Edgar R. (Merthyr Tydvil)

      Pointer, Joseph

      Chapple, Dr. William Allen

      Jones, H. Haydn (Merioneth)

      Pollard, Sir George H.

      Clancy, John Joseph

      Jones, J. Towyn (Carmarthen, East)

      Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H.

      Clough, William

      Jones, Leif Stratten (Notts, Rushcliffe)

      Power, Patrick Joseph

      Clynes, J. R.

      Jones, William (Carnarvonshire)

      Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central)

      Collins, Godfrey P. (Greenock)

      Jones, W. S. Glyn- (T. H'mts, Stepney)

      Price, Sir Robert J. (Norfolk, E.)

      Compton-Rickett, Rt. Hon. Sir J.

      Jowett, Frederick William

      Priestley, Sir A. (Grantham)

      Condon, Thomas Joseph

      Joyce, Michael

      Primrose, Hon. Neil James

      Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.

      Keating, Matthew

      Pringle, William M. R.

      Cotton, William Francis

      Kellaway, Frederick George

      Radford, George Heynes

      Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth)

      Kennedy, Vincent Paul

      Raffan, Peter Wilson

      Crawshay-Williams, Eliot

      Kilbride, Denis

      Rea, Rt. Hon. Russell (South Shields)

      Crooks, William

      King, Joseph

      Rea, Waiter Russell (Scarborough)

      Crumley, Patrick

      Lambert, Rt. Hon. G. (Devon, S. Molton)

      Reddy, M.

      Cullinan, J.

      Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade)

      Redmond, John E. (Waterford)

      Dalziel, Rt. Hon. Sir J. H. (Kirkcaldy)

      Lardner, James Carrige Rushe

      Redmond, William (Clare, E.)

      Davies, Ellis William (Eifion)

      Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, W.)

      Redmond, William Archer (Tyrone, E.)

      Davies, Timothy (Lincs., Louth)

      Lawson, Sir W. (Cumb'rld, Cockerm'th

      Rendall, Athelstan

      Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.)

      Leach, Charles Henry

      Richardson, Albion (Peckham)

      Dawes, James Arthur

      Levy, Sir Maurice

      Richardson, Thomas (Whitehaven)

      De Forest, Baron

      Lewis, John Herbert

      Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)

      Delany, William

      Lew, Sir F. (Norwich)

      Roberts, Sir J. H. (Denbighs.)

      Denman, Hon. Richard Douglas

      Lundon, T.

      Robertson, John M. (Tyneside)

      Devlin, Joseph

      Lyell, Charles Henry

      Robinson, Sidney

      Donelan, Captain A.

      Lynch, A. A.

      Roche, Augustine (Louth)

      Doris, William

      Macdonald, J. Ramsay (Leicester)

      Roe, Sir Thomas

      Duffy, William J.

      Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk Burghs)

      Rowlands, James

      Duncan, J. Hastings (Yorks, Otley)

      McGhee, Richard

      Rowntree, Arnold

      Edwards, Clement (Glamorgan, E.)

      Macnamara, Rt. Hon. Dr. T. J.

      Russell, Rt. Hon Thomas W.

      Edwards, John Hugh (Glamorgan, Mid)

      MacNeill, J. G. Swift (Donegal, South)

      Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland)

      Elverston, Sir Harold

      Macpherson, James Ian

      Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees)

      Esmonde, Dr. John (Tipperary, N.)

      MacVeagh, Jeremiah

      Scanlan, Thomas

      Esmonde, Sir Thomas (Wexford, N.)

      MCallum, Sir John M.

      Scott, A. MacCallum (Glas., Bridgeton)

      Essex, Richard Walter

      M'Kean, John

      Seely, Colonel Rt. Hon. J. E. B.

      Esslemont, George Birnie

      McKenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald

      Sheehy, David

      Falconer, J.

      M'Laren, Hon. H. L. (Leics.)

      Shortt, Edward

      Farrell, James Patrick

      M'Laren, Hon. F. W. S. (Lincs., Spalding)

      Simon, Sir John Allsebrook

      Fenwick, Rt. Hon. Charles

      M'Micking, Major Gilbert

      Smith, Albert (Lancs., Clitheroe)

      Ffrench, Peter

      Manfield, Harry

      Smith, H. B. L. (Northampton)

      Field, William

      Martin, Joseph

      Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.)

      Fiennes, Hon. Eustace Edward

      Masterman, Rt. Hon. C. F. G.

      Snowden, Philip

      Fitzgibbon, John

      Meagher, Michael

      Soames, Arthur Wellesley

      Flavin, Michael Joseph

      Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.)

      Strauss, Edward A. (Southwark, West)

      Gill, Alfred Henry

      Menzies, Sir Walter

      Sutherland, John E.

      Ginnell, Laurence

      Millar, James Duncan

      Sutton, John E.

      Gladstone, W. G. C.

      Molloy, Michael

      Taylor, John W. (Durham)

      Glanville, H. J.

      Molteno, Percy Alport

      Taylor, T. C. (Radcliffe)

      Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford

      Money, L. G. Chiozza

      Tennant, Harold John

      Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward

      Mooney, John J.

      Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton)

      Griffith, Ellis J.

      Morgan, George Hay

      Trevelyan, Charles Philips

      Guest, Major Hon. C. H. C. (Pembroke)

      Morrell, Philip

      Ure, Rt. Hon. Alexander

      Gullan, John William

      Morison, Hector

      Verney, Sir H.

      Gwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway)

      Morton, Alpheus Cleophas

      Wadsworth, John

      Hackett, J.

      Muldoon, John

      Walsh, Stephen (Lancs., Ince)

      Hall, Frederick (Normanton)

      Munro-Ferguson, Rt. Hon. R. C.

      Walton, Sir Joseph

      Hancock, John George

      Murray, Capt. Hon. Arthur C.

      Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent)

      Harcourt, Rt. Hon. L. (Rossenadle)

      Nannetti, Joseph P.

      Waring, Walter

      Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose)

      Needham, Christojpher T.

      Warner, Sir Thomas Courtenay

      Harmsworth, R. L. (Caithness-shire)

      Neilson, Francis

      Wason, Rt. Hon. E. (Clackmannan)

      Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale)

      Nolan, Poseph

      Webb, H.

      Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, W.)

      Norton, Captain Cecil W.

      Wedgwood, Josiah C.

      Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N.E.)

      Nugent, Sir Walter Richard

      White, J. Dundas (Glasgow, Tradeston)

      Haslam, James (Derbyshire)

      Nuttall, Harry

      White, Patrick (Meath, North)

      Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth)

      O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

      Whitehouse, John Howard

      Havelock-Allan, Sir Henry

      O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)

      Whittaker, Rt. Hon. Sir Thomas P.

      Hayden, John Patrick

      O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)

      Whyte, Alexander F.

      Hazleton, Richard

      O'Doherty, Philip

      Wiles, Thomas

      Helme, Sir Norval Watson

      O'Donnell, Thomas

      Wilkie, Alexander

      Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

      Ogden, Fred

      Williams, Llewelyn (Carmarthen)

      1220

      1221

      Williams, Penry (Middlesbrough)

      Winfrey, Richard

      Yoxall, Sir James Henry

      Wilson, Hon. G. G. (Hull, W.)

      Wood, Rt. Hon. T. McKinnon (Glas.)

      Wilson, Rt. Hon. J. W. (Worcs., N.)

      Young, Samuel (Cavan, East)

      TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr.

      Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)

      Young, William (Perth, East)

      Geoffrey Howard and Captain Guest.

      NOES.

      Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

      Greene, Walter Raymond

      Newton, Harry Kottingham

      Aitken, Sir William Max

      Gretton, John

      Nicholson, Wm. G. (Petersfield)

      Amery, L. C. M. S.

      Guinness, Hon. Rupert (Essex, S.E.)

      Nield, Herbert

      Anson, Rt. Hon. Sir William R.

      Guinness, Hon. W. E. (Bury S. Edmunds)

      O'Neill, Hon. A. E. B. (Antrim, Mid)

      Archer-Shee, Major M.

      Gwynne, R. S. (Sussex, Eastbourne)

      Orde-Powlett, Hon. W. G. A.

      Ashley, W. W.

      Hall, D. B. (Isle of Wight)

      Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William

      Astor, Waldorf

      Hall, Fred (Dulwich)

      Parkes, Ebenezer

      Baird, John Lawrence

      Hamersley, Alfred St. George

      Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington)

      Balcarres, Lord

      Hamilton, Marquess of (Londonderry)

      Peto, Basil Edward

      Baldwin, Stanley

      Hardy, Rt. Hon. Laurence

      Pole-Carew, Sir R.

      Banbury, Sir Frederick George

      Harrison-Broadley, H. B.

      Pollock, Ernest Murray

      Barnston, Harry

      Helmsley, Viscount

      Pryce-Jones, Col. E.

      Barrie, H. T.

      Henderson, Major H. (Berks, Abingdon)

      Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel

      Bathurst, Charles (Wilts, Wilton)

      Hewins, William Albert Samuel

      Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall)

      Beach, Hon. Michael Hugh Hicks

      Hickman, Colonel Thomas E.

      Rolleston, Sir John

      Beckett, Hon. Gervase

      Hill, Sir Clement L.

      Ronaldshay, Earl of

      Benn, Arthur Shirley (Plymouth)

      Hills, John Waller

      Rothschild, Lionel de

      Bentinck, Lord Henry Cavendish-

      Hill-Wood, Samuel

      Rutherford, John (Lancs., Darwen)

      Bird, Alfred

      Hoare, Samuel John Gurney

      Rutherford, Watson (L'pool, W. Derby)

      Boles, Lieut.-Col. Dennis Fortescue

      Hohler, G. F.

      Salter, Arthur Clavel

      Boscawen, Sir Arthur S. T. Griffith-

      Hope, Harry (Bute)

      Sanders, Robert Arthur

      Boyle, William (Norfolk, Mid)

      Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield)

      Sassoon, Sir Philip

      Boyton, James

      Hope, Major J. A. (Midlothian)

      Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

      Bridgeman, William Clive

      Horne, Edgar (Surrey, Guildford)

      Smith, Harold (Warrington)

      Bull, Sir William James

      Horner, Andrew Long

      Spear, Sir John Ward

      Burn, Colonel C. R.

      Houston, Robert Paterson

      Stanier, Beville

      Campbell, Capt. Duncan F. (Ayr, N.)

      Hunt, Roland

      Stanley, Hon. G. F. (Preston)

      Campbell, Rt. Hon. J. (Dublin Univ.)

      Hunter, Sir Charles Rodk.

      Starkey, John Ralph

      Campion, W. R.

      Ingleby, Holcombe

      Staveley-Hill, Henry

      Carlile, Sir Edward Hildred

      Jardine, Ernest (Somerset, East)

      Steel-Maitland, A. D.

      Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward H.

      Jessel, Captain Herbert M.

      Stewart, Gershom

      Cassel, Felix

      Joynson-Hicks, William

      Swift, Rigby

      Castlereagh, Viscount

      Kebty-Fletcher, J. R.

      Sykes, Alan John (Ches., Knutsford)

      Cave, George

      Kerr-Smiley, Peter Kerr

      Sykes, Mark (Hull, Central)

      Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

      Kerry, Earl of

      Talbot, Lord Edmund

      Chaloner, Col. R. G. W.

      Kimber, Sir Henry

      Terrell, George (Wilts, N.W.)

      Chambers, James

      Lane-Fox, G. R.

      Terrell, Henry (Gloucester)

      Clay, Captain H. H. Spender

      Larmor, Sir J.

      Thomson, W. Mitchell- (Down, N.)

      Clive, Captain Percy Archer

      Law, Rt. Hon. A. Bonar (Bootle)

      Thynne, Lord Alexander

      Clyde, James Avon

      Lawson, Hon. H. (T. H'mts, Mile End)

      Tobin, Alfred Aspinall

      Coates, Major Sir Edward Feetham

      Lewisham, Viscount

      Touche, George Alexander

      Cooper, Richard Ashmole

      Lloyd, G. A.

      Tryon, Captain George Clement

      Courthope, G. Loyd

      Locker-Lampson, G. (Salisbury)

      Tullibardine, Marquess of

      Craig, Charles Curtis (Antrim, S.)

      Locker-Lampson, O. (Ramsey)

      Valentia, Viscount

      Craig, Captain James (Down, E.)

      Lockwood, Rt. Hon. Lt.-Col. A. R.

      Ward, Arnold S. (Herts, Watford)

      Craig, Norman (Kent, Thanet)

      Lonsdale, Sir John Brownlee

      Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid)

      Craik, Sir Henry

      Lyttelton, Hon. J. C. (Droitwich)

      Wheler, Granville C. H.

      Crichton-Stuart, Lord Ninian

      MacCaw, Wm. J. MacGeagh

      White, Major G. D. (Lancs., Southport)

      Dickson, Rt. Hon. C. Scott

      Mackinder, Halford J.

      Wills, Sir Gilbert

      Dixon, C. H.

      Macmaster, Donald

      Wood, Hon. E. F. L. (Yorks, Ripon)

      Doughty, Sir George

      M'Neill, Ronald (Kent, St. Augustine's)

      Wood, John (Stalybridge)

      Duke, Henry Edward

      Malcolm, Ian

      Worthington-Evans, L.

      Eyres-Monsell, B. M.

      Meysey-Thompson, E. C.

      Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-

      Fetherstonhaugh, Godfrey

      Middlemore, John Throgmorton

      Wright, Henry Fitzherbert

      Fisher, Rt. Hon. W. Hayes

      Mildmay, Francis Bingham

      Yate, Colonel C. E.

      Forster, Henry William

      Mills, Hon. Charles Thomas

      Yerburgh, Robert A.

      Gibbs, George Abraham

      Moore, William

      Younger, Sir George

      Goldman, Charles Sydney

      Morrison-Bell, Capt. E. F. (Ashburton)

      Goldsmith, Frank

      Mount, William Arthur

      TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Sir

      Gordon, John (Londonderry, South)

      Neville, Reginald J. N.

      J. Jackson and Sir C. Kinloch-Cooke.

      Gordon, Hon. John Edward (Brighton)

      Newdegat,e, F. A.

      CLAUSE 21.—(Supplemental Provisions as to Irish Exchequer and Consolidated Fund).
      (1) All sums paid into the Irish Exchequer shall form a Consolidated Fund, and be appropriated to the public service of Ireland by Irish Act, and shall not be applied for any purpose for which they are not so appropriated.
      (2) Save as may be otherwise provided by Irish Act, the existing law relating to the Exchequer and Consolidated Fund of the United Kingdom shall apply with the necessary modifications to the Irish Exchequer and the Irish Consolidated Fund, and an officer shall be appointed by the Lord Lieutenant to be the Irish Comptroller and Auditor-General.
      (3) Save as may be otherwise provided by Irish Act, the accounts of the Irish Consolidated Fund shall be audited as Appropriation Accounts, in manner provided by the Exchequer and Audit Departments Act, 1866, and any Act amending the same,
      by or under the direction of the Irish Comptroller and Auditor-General.
      Question put, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."
      The Committee divided: Ayes, 283; Noes, 172.

      Division No. 349.]

      AYES.

      [12.30 a.m.

      Abraham, William (Dublin, Harbour)

      Esmonde, Dr. John (Tipperary, N.)

      Leach, Charles

      Abraham, Rt. Hon. William (Rhondda)

      Esmonde, Sir Thomas (Wexford, N.)

      Levy, Sir Maurice

      Acland, Franics Dyke

      Essex, Richard Walter

      Lewis, John Herbert

      Adamson, William

      Esslemont, George Birnie

      Low, Sir Frederick (Norwich)

      Addison, Dr. C.

      Falconer, James

      Lundon, Thomas

      Adkins, Sir W. Ryland D.

      Farrell, James Patrick

      Lyell, Charles Henry

      Agnew, Sir George William

      Fenwick, Rt. Hon. Charles

      Lynch, A. A.

      Ainsworth, John Stirling

      Ffrench, Peter

      Macdonald, J. Ramsay (Leicester)

      Allen, Arthur A. (Dumbarton)

      Field, William

      Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk Burghs)

      Allen, Rt. Hon. Charles P. (Stroud)

      Fiennes, Hon. Eustace Edward

      McGhee, Richard

      Arnold, Sydney

      Fitzgibbon, John

      Macnamara, Rt. Hon. Dr. T. J.

      Baker, Harold T. (Accrington)

      Flavin, Michael Joseph

      Macneill, J. G. Swift (Donegal, South)

      Baker, Joseph Allen (Finsbury, E.)

      Gill, Alfred Henry

      Macpherson, James Ian

      Balfour, Sir Robert (Lanark)

      Ginnell, Laurence

      MacVeagh, Jeremiah

      Baring, Sir Godfrey (Barnstaple)

      Gladstone, W. G. C.

      MCallum, Sir John M.

      Barlow, Sir John Emmott (Somerset)

      Glanville, H. J.

      M'Curdy, Charles Albert

      Barnes, George N.

      Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford

      M'Kean, John

      Barran, Sir John N. (Hawick)

      Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward

      McKenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald

      Barran, Rowland Hurst (Leeds, N.)

      Griffith, Ellis J.

      M'Laren, Hon. H. D. (Leics.)

      Barton, William

      Guest, Major Hon. C. H. C. (Pembroke)

      M'Laren, Hon. H. D. (Leics., Spalding)

      Beauchamp, Sir Edward

      Gulland, John W.

      Manfield, Harry

      Beck, Arthur Cecil

      Gwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway)

      Martin, Joseph

      Benn, W. W. (T. H'mts., St. George)

      Hackett, J.

      Meagher, Michael

      Bentham, George Jackson

      Hall, Frederick (Normanton)

      Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.)

      Bethell, Sir John Henry

      Hancock, John George

      Menzies, Sir Walter

      Black, Arthur W.

      Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Lewis (Rossendale)

      Millar, James Duncan

      Boland, John Pius

      Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose)

      Molloy, Michael

      Booth, Frederick Handel

      Harmsworth, R. L. (Caithness-shire)

      Money, L. G. Chiozza

      Bowerman, Charles W.

      Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale)

      Mooney, John J.

      Boyle, Daniel (Mayo, North)

      Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, W.)

      Morgan, George Hay

      Brace, William

      Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N.E.)

      Morrell, Philip

      Brady, Patrick Joseph

      Haslam, James (Derbyshire)

      Morison, Hector

      Brocklehurst, William B.

      Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth)

      Morton, Alpheus Cleophas

      Bryce, John Annan

      Havelock-Allan, Sir Henry

      Munro-Ferguson, Rt. Hon. R. C.

      Buckmaster, Stanley O.

      Hayden, John Patrick

      Muldoon, John

      Burke, E. Haviland-

      Hazleton, Richard

      Murray, Captain Hon. Arthur C.

      Burns, Rt. Hon. John

      Helme, Sir Norval Watson

      Nannetti, Joseph P.

      Buxton, Rt. Hon. S. C. (Poplar)

      Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

      Needham, Christopher T.

      Byles, Sir William Pollard

      Henry, Sir Charles

      Neilson, Francis

      Carr-Gomm, H. W.

      Higham, John Sharp

      Nolan, Joseph

      Cawley, Sir Frederick (Prestwich)

      Hinds, John

      Norton, Captain Cecil William

      Cawley, H. T. (Lancs., Heywood)

      Hobhouse, Rt. Hon. Charles E. H.

      Nugent, Sir Walter Richard

      Chancellor, H. G.

      Hodge, John

      Nuttall, Harry

      Chapple, Dr. William Allen

      Hogge, James Myles

      O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

      Clancy, John Joseph

      Holmes, Daniel Turner

      O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)

      Clough, William

      Holt, Richard Durning

      O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)

      Clynes, John R.

      Hope, John Deans (Haddington)

      O'Doherty, Philip

      Collins, Godfrey P. (Greenock)

      Horne, C. Silvester (Ipswich)

      O'Donnell, Thomas

      Condon, Thomas Joseph

      Hudson, Walter

      Ogden, Fred

      Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.

      Hughes, Spencer Leigh

      O'Kelly, Edward P. (Wicklow, W.)

      Cotton, William Francis

      Illingworth, Percy H.

      O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N.)

      Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth)

      Isaacs, Rt. Hon. Sir Rufus

      O'Malley, William

      Crawshay-Williams, Eliot

      John, Edward Thomas

      O'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, S.)

      Crooks, William

      Jones, Edgar R. (Merthyr Tydvil)

      O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

      Crumley, Patrick

      Jones, H. Haydn (Merioneth)

      O'Shee, James John

      Cullinan, J.

      Jones, J. Towyn (Carmarthen, East)

      O'Sullivan, Timothy

      Dalziel, Rt. Hon. Sir J. H. (Kirkcaldy)

      Jones, Leif Stratten (Notts, Rushcliffe)

      Palmer, Godfrey Mark

      Davies, Ellis William (Eifion)

      Jones, William (Carnarvonshire)

      Parker, James (Halifax)

      Davies, Timothy (Lincs., Louth)

      Jones, W. S. Glyn- (Stepney)

      Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek)

      Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.)

      Jowett, Frederick William

      Pease, Rt. Hon. Joseph A. (Rotherham)

      Dawes, James Arthur

      Joyce, Michael

      Philipps, Col. Ivor (Southampton)

      De Forest, Baron

      Keating, Matthew

      Phillips, John (Longford, S.)

      Delany, William

      Kellaway, Frederick George

      Pirie, Duncan V.

      Denman, Hon. R. D.

      Kennedy, Vincent Paul

      Pointer, Joseph

      Devlin, Joseph

      Kilbride, Denis

      Pollard, Sir George H.

      Donelan, Captain A.

      King, Joseph

      Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H.

      Doris, William

      Lambert, Rt. Hon. G. (Devon, S. Molton)

      Power, Patrick Joseph

      Duffy, William J.

      Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade)

      Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central)

      Duncan, J. Hastings (Yorks, Otley)

      Lardner, James Carrige Rushe

      Price, Sir Robert J. (Norfolk, E.)

      Edwards, Clement (Glamorgan, E.)

      Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, W.)

      Priestley, Sir Arthur (Grantham)

      Elverston, Sir Harold

      Lawson, Sir W. (Cumb'rld, Cockerm'th)

      Primrose, Hon. Neil James

      Pringle, William M. R.

      Scott, A. MacCallum (Glas., Bridgeton)

      Wason, Rt. Hon. E. (Clackmannan)

      Radford, George Heynes

      Seely, Colonel Rt. Hon. J. E. B.

      Webb, H.

      Raffan, Peter Wilson

      Sheehy, David

      Wedgwood, Josiah C.

      Rea, Rt. Hon. Russell (South Shields)

      Shortt, Edward

      White, J. Dundas (Glasgow, Tradeston)

      Rea, Walter Russell (Scarborough)

      Simon, Sir John Allsebrook

      White, Patrick (Meath, North)

      Reddy, M.

      Smith, Albert (Lancs., Clitheroe)

      Whitehouse, John Howard

      Redmond, John E. (Waterford)

      Smith, H. B. L. (Northampton)

      Whittaker, Rt. Hon. Sir Thomas P.

      Redmond, William (Clare, E.)

      Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.)

      Whyte, Alexander F.

      Redmond, William Archer (Tyrone, E.)

      Soames, Arthur Wellesley

      Wiles, Thomas

      Rendall, Athelstan

      Strauss, Edward A. (Southwark, West)

      Wilkie, Alexander

      Richardson, Albion (Peckham)

      Sutherland, John E.

      Williams, Llewelyn (Carmarthen)

      Richardson, Thomas (Whitehaven)

      Sutton, John E.

      Williams, Penry (Middlesbrough)

      Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)

      Taylor, John W. (Durham)

      Wilson, Hon. G. G. (Hull, W.)

      Roberts, Sir J. H. (Denbighs)

      Taylor, T. C. (Radcliffe)

      Wilson, Rt. Hon. J. W. (Worcs., N.)

      Robertson, John M. (Tyneside)

      Tennant, Harold John

      Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)

      Robinson, Sidney

      Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton)

      Winfrey, Richard

      Roch, Walter F.

      Trevelyan, Charles Philips

      Wood, Rt. Hon. T. McKinnon (Glas.)

      Roche, Augustine (Louth)

      Ure, Rt. Hon. Alexander

      Young, Samuel (Cavan, East)

      Roe, Sir Thomas

      Verney, Sir H.

      Young, William (Perth, East)

      Rowlands, James

      Wadsworth, John

      Yoxall, Sir James Henry

      Rowntree, Arnold

      Walsh, Stephen (Lancs., Ince)

      Russell, Rt. Hon. Thomas W.

      Walton, Sir Joseph

      Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland)

      Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent)

      TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr.

      Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees)

      Waring, Walter

      Geoffrey Howard and Capt. Guest.

      Scanlan, Thomas

      Warner, Sir Thomas Courtenay

      NOES.

      Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

      Gordon, John (Londonderry, South)

      Mildmay, Francis Bingham

      Aitken, Sir William Max

      Gordon, Hon. John Edward (Brighton)

      Mills, Hon. Charles Thomas

      Amery, L. C. M. S.

      Greene, Walter Raymond

      Moore, William

      Anson, Rt. Hon. Sir William R.

      Gretton, John

      Morrison-Bell, Capt. E. F. (Ashburton)

      Archer-Shee, Major Martin

      Guinness, Hon. Rupert (Essex, S. E.)

      Mount, William Arthur

      Ashley, W. W.

      Guinness, Hon. W. E. (Bury S. Edmunds)

      Neville, Reginald J. N.

      Astor, Waldorf

      Gwynne, R. S. (Sussex, Eastbourne)

      Newdegate, F. A.

      Baird, John Lawrence

      Hall, D. B. (Isle of Wight)

      Newton, Harry Kottingham

      Balcarres, Lord

      Hall, Fred (Dulwich)

      Nicholson, Wm. G. (Petersfield)

      Baldwin, Stanley

      Hamersley, Alfred St. George

      Nield, Herbert

      Banbury, Sir Frederick George

      Hamilton, Marquess of (Londonderry)

      O'Neill, Hon. A. E. B. (Antrim, Mid)

      Barnston, Harry

      Hardy, Rt. Hon. Laurence

      Orde-Powlett, Hon. W. G. A.

      Barrie, H. T.

      Harrison-Broadley, H. B.

      Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William

      Bathurst, Charles (Wilts, Wilton)

      Helmsley, Viscount

      Parkes, Ebenezer

      Beach, Hon. Michael Hugh Hicks

      Henderson, Major H. (Berks, Abingdon)

      Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington)

      Benn, Arthur Shirley (Plymouth)

      Hewins, William Albert Samuel

      Peto, Basil Edward

      Bentinck, Lord H. Cavendish-

      Hickman, Colonel Thomas

      Pole-Carew, Sir R.

      Bird, Alfred

      Hill, Sir Clement L.

      Pollock, Ernest Murray

      Boles, Lieut.-Col. Dennis Fortescue

      Hills, John Waller

      Pryce-Jones, Colonel E.

      Boscawen, Sir Arthur S. T. Griffith-

      Hill-Wood, Samuel

      Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall)

      Boyle, William (Norfolk, Mid.)

      Hoare, Samuel John Gurney

      Rolleston, Sir John

      Boyton, James

      Hohler, G. F.

      Ronaldshay, Earl of

      Bridgeman, William Clive

      Hope, Harry (Bute)

      Rothschild, Lionel de

      Bull, Sir William James

      Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield)

      Rutherford, John (Lancs., Darwen)

      Burn, Colonel C. R.

      Hope, Major J. A. (Midlothian)

      Rutherford, Watson (L'pool, W. Derby)

      Butcher, John George

      Horne, Edgar (Surrey, Guildford)

      Sanders, Robert Arthur

      Campbell, Capt. Duncan F. (Ayr, N.)

      Horner, A. L.

      Sassoon, Sir Philip

      Campbell, Rt. Hon. J. (Dublin Univ.)

      Houston, Robert Paterson

      Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, West)

      Campion, W. R.

      Hunt, Rowland

      Smith, Harold (Warrington)

      Carlile, Sir Edward Hildred

      Ingleby, Holcombe

      Spear, Sir John Ward

      Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward H.

      Jackson, Sir John

      Stanier, Beville

      Cassel, Felix

      Jardine, Ernest (Somerset, East)

      Stanley, Hon. G. F. (Preston)

      Castlereagh, Viscount

      Jessel, Captain Herbert M.

      Starkey, John Ralph

      Cave, George

      Joynson-Hicks, William

      Staveley-Hill, Henry

      Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

      Kebty-Fletcher, J. R.

      Steel-Maitland, A. D.

      Chaloner, Col. R. G. W.

      Kerr-Smiley, Peter Kerr

      Stewart, Gershom

      Clay, Captain H. H. Spender

      Kerry, Earl of

      Swift, Rigby

      Clive, Captain Percy Archer

      Kimber, Sir Henry

      Sykes, Alan John (Ches., Knutsford)

      Clyde, James Avon

      Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement

      Talbot, Lord Edmund

      Coates, Major Sir Edward Feetham

      Lane-Fox, G. R.

      Terrell, George (Wilts, N.W.)

      Cooper, Richard Ashmole

      Larmor, Sir J.

      Terrell, Henry (Gloucester)

      Courthope, George Loyd

      Law, Rt. Hon. A. Bonar (Bootle)

      Thomson, W. Mitchell- (Down, North)

      Craig, Charles Curtis (Antrim, S.)

      Lawson, Hon. H. (T. H'mts, Mile End)

      Thynne, Lord Alexander

      Craig, Captain James (Down, E.)

      Lewisham, Vosccunt

      Tobin, Alfred Aspinall

      Craig, Norman (Kent, Thanet)

      Locker-Lampson, G. (Salisbury)

      Touche, George Alexander

      Crichton-Stuart, Lord Ninian

      Lockwood, Rt. Hon. Lt.-Col. A. R.

      Tryon, Captain George Clement

      Dickson, Rt. Hon. C. Scott

      Lonsdale, Sir John Brownlee

      Tullibardine, Marquess of

      Doughty, Sir George

      Lyttelton, Hon. J. C. (Droitwich)

      Valentia, Viscount

      Duke, Henry Edward

      MacCaw, William J. MacGeagh

      Ward, Arnold (Herts, Watford)

      Eyres-Monsell, B. M.

      Mackinder, Halford J.

      Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid)

      Fetherstonhaugh, Godfrey

      Macmaster, Donald

      Wheler, Granville C. H.

      Fisher, Rt. Hon. W. Hayes

      McNeill, Ronald (Kent, St. Augustine's)

      White, Major G. D. (Lancs., Southport)

      Forster, Henry William

      Malcolm, Ian

      Wills, Sir Gilbert

      Gibbs, G. A.

      Meysey-Thompson, E. C.

      Wood, Hon. E. F. L. (Yorks, Ripon)

      Goldman, Charles Sydney

      Middlemore, John Throgmorton

      Wood, John (Stalybridge)

      1226

      1227

      Worthington-Evans, L.

      Yate, Colonel C. E.

      TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr.

      Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-

      Yerburgh, Robert A.

      Goldsmith and Mr. O. Locker Lampson.

      Wright, Henry Fitzherbert

      Younger, Sir George

      Question put and agreed to.

      Committee report Progress; to sit again to-morrow (Wednesday).

  PILOTAGE (SALARIES AND EXPENSES).
  Committee to consider of authorising the payment out of moneys provided by Parliament of the Salaries and remuneration of Commissioners or others appointed in pursuance of any Act of the present Session to consolidate and amend the Law relating to Pilotage, of all Expenses incurred by the Board of Trade in the execution of such Act, and of allowances and Expenses payable to members of an advisory committee appointed there-under (King's Recommendation signified), to-morrow (Wednesday).—[Mr. Gulland.]
  Sir HILDRED CARLILE: May I ask whether the Minister in charge of the Bill can give us any forecast as to the probable expenses in connection with the Bill?
  Mr. SPEAKER: That will be given tomorrow when the Motion will appear on the Paper.
  The Orders for the remaining Government business were read and postponed,
  Whereupon Mr. SPEAKER, pursuant to the Order of the House of 14th October, proposed the Question, "That this House do now adjourn."

  IMPRISONMENT OF MR. ARNOLD (RANGOON).
  Mr. KELLAWAY: I am sorry to detain the House at this late hour, but I shall do so for a very few minutes. I only intrude because the case I desire to call attention to is one in which it appears to me a very serious miscarriage of justice has taken place, and a cruel act of injustice has been done to an English journalist who bears a name honoured on all sides of the House. It will be necessary for me to put the facts of the two cases involved here. The first case is the McCormick case which I referred to by question in the House about six months ago. The second case is that of Mr. Arnold. The McCormick case is the case of a captain who was charged with the
  1228
  abduction and rape of a native girl of the age of about ten years. Captain McCormick is an Australian and a D.S.O. He settled at Victoria Point in 1909 and he then adopted a Malay child, a part of the terms being the payment of thirty rupees to the mother of the child. The child remained with Captain McCormick for some months, after which she was taken away by her mother. In March, 1911, the mother banded the child over to a woman who was the native mistress of a servant of Captain McCormick. Captain McCormick then saw the girl and removed her from the care of this woman and detained her in his bungalow for a period of three months, denying the girl access to her parents, refusing to allow her to go to see her father who was lying seriously ill and even refusing to allow her to attend her father's funeral. The mother made application to Captain McCormick to have her child back. Captain McCormick refused and roughly handled the woman when she made the application.
  The child remained with Captain McCormick for three months, when the mother laid an information before the magistrate, Mr. Buchanan. Mr. Buchanan did not want to hear the case, he having been brought into conflict with McCormick over a concession of some land. He therefore wired to his official superior asking him to send Captain Finney, a police magistrate, to enquire into the case. That application was sent in on July 3rd and it should have arrived at the headquarters within three or four days, but, as a matter of fact, more than a fortnight passed before Mr. Andrew, who was the magistrate whom it is said Mr. Arnold libelled, sent Captain Finney down to make inquiries at Victoria Point. In the meantime Mr. Buchanan had become aware of the very serious charges that were being made against Captain McCormick in connection with this girl. He ordered the girl to be removed from Captain McCormick and the girl was removed by a police inspector. The mother of the girl then went before Mr. Buchanan and accused Captain McCormick not only of having abducted the girl, but of having raped her and having communicated to her a loathsome disease. The defence set up by Captain McCormick was that he had become aware that the child was suffering from this disease whilst she was staying

  1229
  at the house of the woman to whom her mother had entrusted her, and he said—"out of pure humanity I thought it was my duty to take the girl to my bungalow and examine her, and I took her and I myself examined her. I found she was suffering from an exceedingly virulent form of this loathsome disease. I took medicines from my medicine chest. I gave them to one of my servants and my servant attended this child. I had a right to do that because I had bought the child from her mother for thirty rupees." All these statements were statements which were made when the case came on for hearing.
  When Captain Finney arrived and inquired into this case he saw Mr. Buchanan, the local magistrate, who did not want to hear this case. Mr. Buchanan then came to the conclusion that the police wanted to hush the case up, and he therefore decided to issue a warrant for Captain McCormick's arrest on a charge of abduction, and instructed the police to proceed with an inquiry into the charge of rape. That warrant was carried out in spite of the protest of Captain Finney. Captain Finney then wired in a secret code to Mr. Andrew, the magistrate who Mr. Arnold is alleged to have libelled: "McCormick is arrested on an unbailable offence. I hope bail will be allowed." Mr. Andrew allowed bail. During the time before the authority for bail to Captain McCormick arrived, Captain McCormick was entertained by Captain Finney.
  Captain Finney finally reported that there was no case on the evidence so far as he had been able to get it. Mr. Andrew, however, decided, there ought to be a hearing. He himself decided to hear the case at his headquarters, some 200 miles from Victoria Point. As soon as the mother heard that Mr. Andrew was to be the magistrate she petitioned the Commissioner that the trial should be removed to another court owing to the well-known fact that Mr. Andrew and Captain McCormick were close personal friends. That petition was sent to Mr. Andrew to deal with. He filed the petition and decided to proceed with the case. The mother also applied that she might be allowed a pleader, as they were poor people and they were not able to pay a pleader. That application also was refused. The case then went to Mr. Andrew's court. One of the statements made by Mr. Arnold was that the case was heard in camera. That statement is denied by Mr. Andrew, and as I have heard a suggestion
  1230
  that the hearing in camera was desirable in a case of this kind it is important to bear that denial in mind. He denied that it was heard in camera. As a matter of fact the only persons present at the Court—I have the names—were these, the magistrate and his clerk, McCormick and his counsel, two of his servants, the woman and her child, and the interpreter. And here is another factor which I think is of singular significance. Instead of using the official interpreter of the Court at Victoria Point, who had been brought up to the Court, a distance of 200 miles, the interpreter actually employed was the servant of Captain McCormick. I ask the House to try and realise the position of this poor Malay woman and child, in an alien court, when the only means of approaching the judge was through an interpreter who was employed by the man against whom they were seeking justice. Another circumstance was this, that Mr. Andrew refused to admit evidence from two witnesses who were essential to the case of this woman and her child. One of them was the civil doctor who had examined the girl. Two witnesses were entered as being witnesses on behalf of the woman and child who wore actually witnesses for McCormick. That is explained by Mr. Andrew, the magistrate, as being an error on the part of his clerk. The verdict Mr. Andrew brought in was that Captain McCormick's motives had been pure and philanthropic, and he dismissed the case. Two days afterwards he entertained Captain McCormick at dinner, and during the Durbar celebrations Captain McCormick was his guest for a week. I am coming to a conclusion and I know it is an unpleasant and painful story, but it is one which I felt compelled to lay before the House.
  When all these facts were known, Mr. Arnold, who is editor of the "Burmah Critic," approached the Government and asked for an inquiry into all the circumstances of the case. He did not succeed in getting any satisfaction, and it was only then that he decided to take up the case in his paper. He then made three statements. One was that Captain McCormick and Mr. Andrew were "boon companions." That expression may be an unpleasant and unfortunate one, but there is no question as to its accuracy, they both being in close and intimate connection over a fairly considerable period. The other was that the case was heard in

  1231
  camera. I have given the House the actual and undisputed facts as to the persons who were present. The third was that Captain Finney and Mr. Andrew had agreed to acquit their friend of this charge. Mr. Arnold was convinced that there had been a grave miscarriage of justice on the facts as he saw them, and as for myself, I may say that having seen the detailed reports of the proceedings, I have come to the same conclusion. I think there has been a grave miscarriage of justice. Burning with a sense of indignation and believing that wrong had been done, Mr. Arnold did write what may have been indiscreet, he may have used some expressions which were indiscreet, but I think that the sentence of twelve months' imprisonment in a Malay prison which was passed upon him greatly exceeded any guilt for which he was responsible. I venture to ask the representative of the India Office two things—first, that they will institute a full inquiry into all the circumstances regarding the trial of McCormick, and also I hope the Secretary of State for India will see his way to exercise the prerogative of mercy on behalf of Mr. Arnold. I cannot help feeling that having served one month, as he has done, in a Burmese jail, whatever indiscretion he was guilty of has been fully condoned. We are not dealing with the case of a man with a libellous pen. Mr. Arnold is the son of Sir Edwin Arnold, and has a hereditary love for the East, and although he may have gone too far in his criticism, there can be no doubt that his motive was a pure and public one.
  Mr. MACPHERSON: I usually agree with my hon. Friend in the views which he too rarely expresses in this House, but I am sorry to say I do not agree with all the views he has expressed tonight. I think it is a great pity that a matter of such extreme and grave importance to a gentleman who may some day be a distinguished public servant, should be raised at this time of night in the Imperial Parliament. I may say at the outset that I agree with my hon. Friend in what he said when he suggested that the prerogative of mercy might be used on behalf of Mr. Arnold, who the House also will agree bears a distinguished and honoured name, but I do not agree with him on the strictures he has passed upon Mr. Andrew. His first point, so far as I could make out, with regard to Mr. Andrew was that he had heard the case in
  1232
  open court. The fact is, as the hon. Member states himself, that the police reported that there was no case against Captain McCormick. It is a well known fact in Indian law, as it is in the law of this country, that if the police report that there is no case against a man the magistrate can dismiss the case immediately, but Mr. Andrew did not do that, although it was within his power to do it. He thought it was necessary, as there was some doubt about the evidence on which the police had brought the charge, to hear it in open court, and he did hear it in open court. But the hon. Member did not stop there; he said he ought not to have heard the case in open court.
  Mr. KELLAWAY: No, no. If I said that, I meant to say the contrary.
  Mr. MACPHERSON: He did mention something about it, although I am afraid I did not quite catch the point. He mentioned something about the names of the people who were present in court during the trial of the case. As a matter of fact, in an offence of that sort in this country and indeed in every part of the world the magistrate almost invariably uses his discretion, and in India as in this country he clears the court of all people who are not directly interested either as witnesses or as friends of the prisoner. The magistrate in this case may or may not have used that discretion, but I think it is greatly to his credit, and in his favour if he did what he is credited with, and cleared the court in a case where it was alleged that an offence had been committed against a child, an offence of a disgraceful nature, if it was actually committed, or actually proved, against Captain McCormick. The next point is, the hon. Member said that the offence was a non-bailable one. That may be so, but again the magistrate's discretion in a case of this kind is quite undisputed. If it is a non-bailable case he is entitled to use his discretion and allow any person whenever arrested out on bail.
  1.0 A.M.
  The next point which the hon. Member made was that this Malay woman and child were not allowed a pleader at the expense of the local government. Every person knows that even in this country it was only quite recently that the Poor Prisoners' Act was passed in order to enable poor prisoners in this country to be defended at the public expense. Every person who has any practice in the criminal courts of this country knows that unless a prisoner, however poor he

  1233
  may be, raises some sort of defence before the magistrates, when he is sent for trial he is not allowed to have anyone to represent him, however strong his case is, and it is not at all surprising to me that Mr. Andrew did not give the woman a pleader Probably he had no power. An hon. Friend tells me he had the power. At any rate, the worst that can be said against him is that he did not use the discretion. The facts are that Mr. Arnold was sentenced to twelve months' simple imprisonment. Everyone knows that simple imprisonment in India is not a very serious punishment. There is no hard labour of any sort, but I do agree with my hon. Friend in impressing upon the representative of the India Office that in a case of this sort the prerogative of mercy ought to be extended to a man who bears so distinguished a name as Mr. Arnold.
  My hon. Friend said it was a very serious thing that Mr. Andrew entertained Captain McCormick two days after the trial. As every person knows in this country judges very often entertain barristers and barristers entertain judges. [HON. MEMBERS: "Prisoners?"] I am coming to that point. I do not see why in the wide world if a magistrate who was absolutely convinced that a man in his own station of life, who was tried before him, was innocent, and he got a fair trial, and there was no proof of any guilt, he should not afterwards entertain him if he wished to do so. I do not think, therefore, that any point ought to be made of that. We in this country do not understand the conditions of the East. The conditions surrounding the white man and the black man in India and in Burma are probably not understood by the people of this country, and I do not think that at this time of night my hon. Friend ought to have gone out of his way to bring that forward as a charge against Mr. Andrew. I do not know Mr. Andrew and I have never heard of him before, but I do think it, is a great pity indeed at this hour of the night that accusations made in various quarters should be repeated. I trust, therefore, when the hon. Member representing the India Office replies to the speech of my hon. Friend he will promise the House that the twelve months' imprisonment shall be shortened, and at the same time produce to the House something in substantiation of the character and honour of Mr. Andrew, who, no doubt, is a very able and a very zealous servant.
  Mr. HAROLD BAKER: I make no complaint at all of the way in which my hon. Friend the Member for Bedford has placed his case before the House, but if I do not follow him in the statement of facts which he made I hope that I shall not be taken as not dissenting on my part, or on the part of the Secretary of State for India, from that statement. Some were true and admitted facts, but others were very much open to question. If I pass them by it is because in the short time which remains I desire to come to the real question which is in the minds of hon. Members, and that is what should be done in reference to Mr. Arnold and in his present position. I am well aware, as many right hon. and hon. Members are, that this case has excited a great deal of interest, not only in India, but in this country, too. If the statement of the facts made by my hon. Friend be true, even if Mr. Arnold had been guilty only of a technical offence, still he would have the sympathy of every honest man in the country; but this case is still sub judice, and it must be remembered, with regard to the statement of facts put before us this evening by the hon. Member for Bedford (Mr. Kellaway), that it has not commended itself to the courts which have dealt with the case. It is necessary just for one moment and I must try to be brief to refer to the legal history of the case. As my hon. Friend said, in 1911 after Captain McCormick was first tried before Mr. Andrew on a charge of abduction and rape and was discharged, a petition was presented to the Lieutenant-Governor of the province on behalf of the mother of the child asking him to call for the records of the case and to look into the allegations that were made against Mr. Andrew's conduct of the trial. The Lieutenant-Governor made a full investigation into the matter and declared himself to be completely satisfied and to be unwilling to intervene in the matter. That decision was communicated to Mr. Arnold and upon that Mr. Arnold published two articles which formed the subject of the libels. Again, I should like to point out this, in order to correct the statement made by the hon. Member for Bedford. Those libels were not a mere case of criticism of a magistrate for non-performance of his duty, or any simple suggestion of an error of judgment, or even that there had been shown partiality or friendly bias to a prisoner. They went far beyond that, and were intended as my hon. Friend frankly

  1235
  admitted, to make a charge of deliberate conspiracy against two officers. They charged that they had conspired together to prevent justice and to screen a friend. It was a very gross libel, if true, upon two judicial officers in their official capacity. That I think should be borne in mind. Next, Mr. Andrew having been the subject of these libels at once brought an action under the criminal code for defamation of a magistrate.
  Mr. KELLAWAY: Can the hon Gentleman say whether Mr. Andrew did that on the instigation of the India Office?
  Mr. BAKER: I cannot give a reply to that question without notice. I think it is not the case. No instigation I think was required. Mr. Andrew, knowing the grave charges made against him was, I think, bound to take action. He did take action for defamation, and that case was tried in the Chief Court of Lower Burmah before the Chief Judge and a European Jury, and they found by a unanimous verdict that Mr. Arnold was guilty of libel, that the statements in the articles were untrue, and he then received a sentence of one year's imprisonment. I think, for the information of the House, I ought to quote what the Chief Judge said in passing sentence:—
  "I have sentenced the accused to what may seem a severe punishment, because in my opinion no grosser, more unwarranted, or more mischievous libel could have been published, and because the offence has been aggravated by the line of conduct of the defence, both advocates having not only reiterated, but added to the vituperation contained in the articles, and no sort of apology or expression of sorrow for the injury done to the complainant having been uttered even up to the end of the case."
  On that verdict Mr. Arnold took the case a step further. He applied to the Government advocate for a certificate that they were bound to have a full bench which would consider the points of law and procedure. The Government advocate refused to grant the certificate, and at that point the Burmese Court had performed all the functions which it was entitled to perform. It was functus officio. There was no further court of appeal for the province. It then remained open to Mr. Arnold to proceed to move in the final court of appeal which is the Privy Council. I understand that it is the fact that he is applying to the Privy Council to ask them to exercise the prerogative of the Crown and to grant special leave to appeal in this case. I have only a few minutes left, and I want to utilise them
  1236
  to deal with the last point, which is Mr. Arnold's position. It must be remembered that the Burmese Chief Court has no further power to act. It has gone to its full extent. It could not entertain an application to grant bail to Mr. Arnold whilst the case is being heard before the Privy Council. There remains the Executive authority, that is the power of the Secretary of State to intervene. I must tell hon. Members that it is the view of the Secretary of State that at this moment it is not his duty to intervene. If he were to do so, he would be anticipating by his intervention the decision which the Privy Council is going to take upon this appeal, and he would be prejudging the very question which the Privy Council has to decide, which is not whether Mr. Arnold is guilty or not, but whether there is a prima facie, case or not for an appeal from the previous decision. It would be an intrusion of the Executive into the sphere of the judiciary just at the point where the Privy Council has to give its judicial decision. Although the Secretary of State is unable at this point to decide upon the exercise of the prerogative of mercy, I am willing to assure the House that, if the Privy Council thinks fit to grant special leave to appeal in this case, there is, I think, very little doubt that the Government of India, or the Privy Council will at once liberate Mr. Arnold on bail whilst that appeal is being heard. I can perhaps go beyond that and say I have very good reason to believe that the hearing of the petition for leave to appeal is being expedited so that it may take place at the earliest possible moment. I am sorry it is not possible to go further to meet what I have no doubt are the views, though I think, the mistaken views, of hon. Members. I can assure the House on these two points, that the hearing of the petition for leave to appeal before the Privy Council will be expedited to the greatest degree possible, and that there is every probability, if the Privy Council thinks fit to grant leave to appeal, that Mr. Arnold will be liberated pending the final hearing of that appeal.
  Mr. C. BATHURST: Mr. Arnold is an old Oxford friend of mine, and I should like to say one word on his behalf. I understand that the Burmese Court has no further jurisdiction, and that his application is now before the Privy Council, and that the case is in the jurisdiction of the Privy Council. That being so, cannot the Privy Council at once release Mr. Arnold

  1237
  on bail. If it has not the initiative, I should like to ask the India Office to do so as a matter of fair play and justice to the son of an eminent public man, who is a graduate of Oxford University and whose offence, whatever it may be, would not have justified in this country so serious a penalty as twelve months' imprisonment in a Burmese jail. I ask that now the case is in the control of the Privy Council that either the Privy Council or the Secretary of State for India should forthwith exercise such clemency as would enable him to be released at once on bail.
  Mr. BAKER: I am afraid the dilemma is this, that the Privy Council cannot yet act in this case, and the Secretary of State thinks it is not his duty to act in a way which might anticipate the decision of the Privy Council.
  Mr. C. BATHURST: If an application were made to the Privy Council as a
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  judicial body that Mr. Arnold should be at once released is there any reason why he should not be so released?
  Mr. BAKER: I understand that they could not do that until they decide whether or not there is a prima facie case for appeal. They must decide that question first.
  Mr. KELLAWAY: Will there be an inquiry into the whole case?
  Mr. BAKER: I have no doubt the Privy Council will take all relevant facts into consideration.
  Mr. KELLAWAY: Do the Government of India intend to have an inquiry into the circumstances of the case?
  Mr. BAKER: They have called for reports.
  Adjourned accordingly at a quarter after One a.m., Wednesday, 27th November, 1912.