§ Order read for resuming Adjourned Debate on Question [13th March] "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the Resolution, 'That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding £47,000, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1912, for Stationery, Printing, Paper, Binding, and Printed Books for the Public Service; for the Salaries and Expenses of the Stationery Office; and for sundry Miscel- 1342 laneous Services, including Reports of Parliamentary Debates.'"
§ Question again proposed. Debate resumed.
§ Mr. ASHLEYI do not wish to detain the House, but there is a point—
§ Mr. SPEAKERThe hon. Member for Yarmouth is in possession of the House, as he was speaking when the Debate stood adjourned last night.
§ Mr. FELLI was, at the moment, drawing my remarks to a conclusion. All I desired to do was to call attention to the fact that the Government, when framing their Estimates, might have foreseen that the Session would be prolonged, and might have made provision accordingly.
§ Mr. ASHLEYI think we are entitled to some answer to the very cogent argument put forward by my hon. Friend (Mr. Mitchell-Thomson) in the Debate yesterday as to Item N (Parliamentary Debates and Records). The answer given by the Secretary to the Treasury was not satisfactory. My hon. Friend pointed out that the cost for printing the Reports in the Summer Session was 7s. 6d. per column, whereas for the Autumn Session it was 12s. 6d. Although it is quite true that the reporting of Part II. of the Insurance Bill might reduce the cost by 1s. a column, yet, on the most liberal allowance, them is 4s. per column extra for reporting during the Autumn Session than for the Summer Session. What is the reason for this difference?
§ Sir GEORGE TOULMINI happen to have a little information about this matter. It is really the simplest Rule of Three sum. The average number of pages per day during last Session was eighty. That is not merely for the Autumn Session, but the average for the whole year. The House sat for 170 days, instead of 120. Seven times twelve is 84, and eight times 170 is 1,360. As 84 is to 136, so is £7,000 to £12,000. It is really an identical sum per page that is charged for the whole year. The estimate was an under-estimate, very largely owing to the large number of questions that were asked through- 1343 out the year, which increased the total number of pages. There is no particular extra cost involved as regards printing.
§ Lord HUGH CECILI quite follow the sum of the hon. Gentleman, but, as I understand it, the only reason why there was more charged in the Autumn Session than in the Summer Session was because more pages of the OFFICIAL REPORT were recited.
§ Sir G. TOULMINI am sorry I have not made myself understood. The charge per page is identical. The extra sum is not for the Autumn Session, it is for the whole year, the average number of pages in each part for the whole year being seventy-nine, as compared with sixty-nine, so that the whole sum is not simply for the Autumn Session, but for a greater length in all the Session than had been estimated.
§ Lord HUGH CECILI am sure the House is indebted to the hon. Member for his lucid explanation, but it seems that someone has made a rather serious blunder in estimating the cost per page at less than it actually turned out to be. The hon. Member now explains that the cost per page was greater than was anticipated.
§ Sir G. TOULMINNo, there were more pages at the same cost per page.
§ Lord HUGH CECILThe estimate was that the House would not talk so much as actually occurred. The Government anticipated a shorter Session than actually took place, and what we are now required to vote is the cost naturally arising for any additional cost per page, because the Session was prolonged. In one way it throws an interesting light on the calculations of the Government at the beginning of the Session. We get for a moment behind the minds of the Cabinet early in January, and see that they did not anticipate a National Insurance Bill, or, at any rate, an Autumn Session on that subject. I think the explanation is a very satisfactory one, but I cannot conceive why it was not given by the Financial Secretary to the Treasury.
§ The FINANCIAL SECRETARY to the TREASURY (Mr. Masterman)It was given last night.
§ Lord HUGH CECILWith the same arithmetical precision?
§ Mr. MASTERMANYes.
§ Lord HUGH CECILWe are obliged to the hon. Member (Sir G. Toulmin) for having explained the matter, and I hope he will soon occupy an official position, in which he will be able to give lucid explanations with more authority and equal precision.
§ Mr. JAMES HOPEI do not know whether it would be entirely in order to ask the Secretary to the Treasury whether he has framed his Estimates on this particular subject for this year?
§ Mr. SPEAKERWe are not dealing with this year's Estimates. The hon. Member will see them later.
§ Mr. JAMES HOPEMay I ask the Secretary to the Treasury what are the repaying Departments from which he gets the £2,000 credit? It is not explained in the note, which says:—
The receipts from Repaying Departments have proved greater than we anticipated when the Original Estimate was made.When we were in Committee the hon. Gentleman did not offer any explanation on that point, although I admit that he has been very full in his explanations on other points. On the subject of the whole Vote, I understand it will not be possible to move a reduction now, but, having regard to the enormous increase in this expenditure, I think it is only right we should offer a protest against the way in whioh money is expended on unnecessary publications and challenge the whole Vote on a Division.
§ Question put, "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the said Resolution."
§ The House divided: Ayes, 155; Noes, 82.
1345| Division No. 41.] | AYES. | [7.55 p.m. |
| Adamson, William | Beauchamp, Sir Edward | Buckmaster, Stanley O. |
| Addison, Dr. C. | Benn, W. W. (T. H'mt, St. George) | Byles, Sir William Pollard |
| Agnew, Sir George William | Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine | Cameron, Robert |
| Ainsworth, John Stirling | Boland, John Plus | Carr-Gomm, H. W. |
| Allen, Rt. Hon. Charles Peter (Stroud) | Booth, Frederick Handel | Clough, William |
| Barnes, G. N. | Brace, William | Clynes, John R. |
| Barton, William | Brady, Patrick Joseph | Cotton, William Francis |
| Beale, W. P. | Brocklehurst, William B. | Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth) |
| Crumley, Patrick | Lamb, Ernest Henry | Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H. |
| Davies, David (Montgomery Co.) | Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade) | Radford, George Heynes |
| Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.) | Lansbury, George | Rea, Rt. Hon. Russell (South Shields) |
| Dawes, J. A. | Lawson, Sir W. (Cumbrl'r, Cockerm'th) | Rea, Walter Russell (Scarborough) |
| Denman, Hon. R. D. | Leach, Charles | Richards, Thomas |
| Devlin, Joseph | Lewis, John Herbert | Richardson, Thomas (Whitehaven) |
| Dillon, John | Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester) | Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln) |
| Donclan, Captain A. | Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk Burghs) | Roberts, George H. (Norwich) |
| Doris, William | Macnamara, Rt. Hon. Dr. T. J. | Robertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradford) |
| Duffy, William J. | Macpherson, James Ian | Robertson, John M. (Tyneside) |
| Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness) | MacVeagh, Jeremiah | Roch, Walter F. |
| Duncan, J. Hastings (York, Otley) | M'Callum, John M. | Roche, Augustine (Louth) |
| Edwards, John Hugh (Glamorgan, Mid) | McKenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald | Russell, Rt. Hon. Thomas W. |
| Esmonde, Dr. John (Tipperary, N.) | M'Micking, Major Gilbert | Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees) |
| Essex, Richard Walter | Markham, Sir Arthur Basil | Scanlan, Thomas |
| Farrell, James Patrick | Marks, Sir George Croydon | Seely, Col. Rt. Hon. J. E. B. |
| Ffrench, Peter | Marshall, Arthur Harold | Sheehy, David |
| Gelder, Sir W. A. | Martin, Joseph | Shortt, Edward |
| Gill, A. H. | Masterman, C. F. G. | Simon, Sir John Allsebrook |
| Gladstone, W. G. C. | Meagher, Michael | Smith, Albert (Lancs., Clitheroe) |
| Glanville, Harold James | Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.) | Stanley, Albert (Staffs, N.W.) |
| Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford | Menzies, Sir Walter | Sutton, John E. |
| Goldstone, Frank | Molteno, Percy Alport | Taylor, John W. (Durham) |
| Hackett, John | Montagu, Hon. E. S. | Tennant, Harold John |
| Hall, Frederick (Normanton) | Mooney, John J. | Toulmin, Sir George |
| Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose) | Morgan, George Hay | Trevelyan, Charles Philips |
| Harmsworth, Cecil (Luton, Beds) | Morrell, Philip | Wadsworth, J. |
| Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth) | Morton, Alpheus Cleophas | Walsh, Stephen (Lancs., Ince) |
| Havelock-Allan, Sir Henry | Neilson, Francis | Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent) |
| Hayden, John Patrick | Nicholson, Sir Charles N. (Doncaster) | Watt, Henry A. |
| Helme, Norval Watson | Nolan, Joseph | Wedgwood, Josiah C. |
| Henderson, Arthur (Durham) | Norton, Captain Cecil W. | White, J. Dundas (Glas., Tradeston) |
| Higham, John Sharp | Nuttall, Harry | Whitehouse, John Howard |
| Hobhouse, Rt. Hon. Charles E. H. | O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) | Whyte, A. F. |
| Holmes, Daniel Turner | O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool) | Wiles, Thomas |
| Hope, John Deans (Haddington) | O'Doherty, Philip | Wilkie, Alexander |
| Isaacs, Rt. Hon. Sir Rufus | O'Grady, James | Williams, Penny (Middlesbrough) |
| John, Edward Thomas | O'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, S.) | Wilson, Rt. Hon. J. W. (Worcs., N.) |
| Johnson, W. | O'Shaughnessy, P. J. | Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton) |
| Jones, William (Carnarvonshire) | O'Sullivan, Timothy | Young, Samuel (Cavan, East) |
| Jowett, Frederick William | Parker, James (Halifax) | Young, William (Perth, East) |
| Joyce, Michael | Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek) | |
| Keating, Matthew | Pearce, William (Limehouse) | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr. Illingworth and Mr. Gulland. |
| Kilbride, Denis | Pease, Rt. Hon. Joseph A. (Rotherham) | |
| King, Joseph | Pointer, Joseph | |
| NOES | ||
| Agg-Gardner, James Tynte | Eyres-Monsell, Bolton M. | Peto, Basil Edward |
| Aitken, Sir William Max | Fell, Arthur | Pollock, Ernest Murray |
| Ashley, Wilfrid W. | Forster, Henry William | Salter, Arthur Clavell |
| Bagot, Lieut.-Col. J. | Goldman, Charles Sidney | Sanders, Robert Arthur |
| Baird, J. L. | Gordon, Hon. John Edward (Brighton) | Sanderson, Lancelot |
| Balcarres, Lord | Hall, Fred (Dulwich) | Smith, Harold (Warrington) |
| Baldwin, Stanley | Hambro, Angus Valdemar | Stanley, Hon. G. F. (Preston) |
| Barnston, Harry | Hamilton, Lord C. J. (Kensington) | Starkey, John Ralph |
| Benn, Arthur Shirley (Plymouth) | Henderson, Major H. (Berkshire) | Swift, Rigby |
| Benn, Ion Hamilton | Hewins, William Albert Samuel | Talbot, Lord Edmund |
| Bennett-Goldney, Francis | Hohler, Gerald Fitzroy | Terrell, George (Wilts, N.W.) |
| Beresford, Lord Charles | Hunt, Rowland | Terrell, Henry (Gloucester) |
| Bigland, Alfred | Hunter, Sir Charles Rodk. (Bath) | Thompson, Robert (Belfast, North) |
| Bird, Alfred | Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement | Touche, George Alexander |
| Boscawen, Sir Arthur S. T. Griffith- | Larmor, Sir J. | Tullibardine, Marquess of |
| Boyle, W. Lewis (Norfolk, Mid) | Lloyd, George Ambrose | Valentia, Viscount |
| Bridgeman, William Clive | Locker-Lampson, O. (Ramsey) | Ward, A. S. (Herts, Watford) |
| Campbell, Capt. Duncan F. (Ayr, N.) | Lonsdale, Sir John Brownlee | Wheler, Granville C. H. |
| Cassel, Felix | Lyttelton, Hon. J. C. (Droitwich) | White, Major G. D. (Lancs., Southport) |
| Castlereagh, Viscount | MacCaw, William J. MacGeagh | Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.) |
| Cave, George | Mackinder, Halford J. | Willoughby, Major Hon. Claud |
| Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) | McNeill, Ronald (Kent, St. Augustine's) | Wolmer, Viscount |
| Cecil, Lord Hugh (Oxford Univ.) | Mason, James F. (Windsor) | Wood, John (Stalybridge) |
| Chaloner, Col. R. G. W. | Mount, William Arthur | Worthington-Evans, L. |
| Dalrymple, Viscount | Newton, Harry Kottingham | Younger, Sir George |
| Denniss, E. R. B. | Paget, Almeric Hugh | |
| Dickson, Rt. Hon. C. Scott | Peel, Capt. R. F. (Woodbridge) | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr. James Hope and Mr. Ormsby-Gore. |
| Doughty, Sir George | Perkins, Walter Frank | |
| Duke, Henry Edward |
Question put, and agreed to.