§ Motion made, and Question proposed, "That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding £47,000, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1912, for Stationery, Printing, Paper, Binding, and Printed Books for the Public Service; for the Salaries and Expenses of the Stationery Office; and for sundry Miscellaneous Services, including Reports of Parliamentary Debates."
§ Sir F. BANBURYI have one or two questions to ask upon this Vote. I find that Item F, for paper supplied to Public Departments, shows an increase of £32,000, notwithstanding the fact that the original Estimate showed an increase of £18,000 last year. This item in the last two years shows an increase of £50,000, and that is 1066 an extraordinary amount upon an expenditure of £265,000. The explanation given is that this additional amount is required to meet unforeseen liabilities, owing to the length of the Session of 1911. We have already this evening been unfortunate enough to have to spend a certain sum of money owing to the increase in the length of the Session for reporting and other services, and now we find that not only were we put to all the inconveniences of a long Session, but the country has had to pay extremely large sums of money for the very doubtful benefit of keeping Parliament sitting for eleven months out of the twelve. There is a further charge for administering the Insurance Act. I would like to ask whether that includes the cost of the actuary who made a report upon the Buntingford Friendly Society. I presume it does. The rest of the items are in connection with the business of the National Telephone Company. I do not so much object to that except on the 1067 ground that it was well known the transfer was going to take place, and it shows rather a want of business aptitude not to have made sufficient provision for the paper which would be required. The extravagance does not end here, because we have to pay under this Supplementary Estimate £4,000 for additional binding, and I find the original estimate was £1,000 higher than the estimate for 1910–11.
This Government which came into office upon the cry, among many of us, of administrative economy is continually piling up every possible expenditure. You find large increases even when you come to such items as binding and printing. We have a Supplementary Estimate of £6,500 for miscellaneous small stores for public Departments. The original estimate was £74,000, whereas the year before it was £63,000, so that there was something like 15 per cent. increase on the original estimate before we come to the Supplementary Estimate. I presume the increase of £4,500 for the Parliamentary Debates was entirely owing to the unfortunate long Session, and I would appeal to the Patronage Secretary to bear in mind the large sums we have been required to spend owing to the length of the Session, to turn over a new leaf, and let us adjourn early so that we may not only save the money of the taxpayers, but save the time spent on discussing Supplementary Estimates, and also our health and temper. The Government have not acted up to their promise when they came into office to exercise economy. I do not consider the explanation given of the Supplementary Votes by any manner of means satisfactory. I should like to know why it is necessary to have such an enormous increase in the papers as £32,000, or in binding as £4,000. There is, it is true, a little tiny saving. You save £2,000 on the original estimate for books and maps, but we are now asked to put that £2,000 back in order that no one can say there has been any saving at all. I have heard the Chancellor of the Exchequer say he and myself were the only advocates of economy in the House, and I am just showing him a few things to which he might attend.
§ Mr. RUPERT GWYNNE (Eastbourne)We heard this afternoon at question time that £10,000 was being expended in printed matter in connection with the Insurance Act. That is a very 1068 large sum, and I am sure the House must realise a considerable portion of it has been spent unnecessarily. Amongst other literature which has been issued and circulated concerning the Insurance Act is a report to the Chancellor of the Exchequer by Mr. Watson on the Buntingford Union Association. I do not know why, after the Bill became an Act, this matter should be dealt with so fully or for whose benefit. During the Debates there was an enormous number of different friendly societies, large and small, quoted, and the benefits which they were able to give were referred to; but apparently of all these the Buntingford Association was alone picked out by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and a lot of public money wasted in publishing this report.
§ Mp. MASTERMANOn a point of Order. There is no sum in the Supplementary Estimate for printing, nor is any of the paper which was used in presenting the report to which the hon. Member refers included in the Supplementary Estimate. I therefore submit it is not in order to discuss that matter on this Vote.
§ Mr. RUPERT GWYNNEMay I ask, then, under what Estimate it comes?
§ Mr. MASTERMANIt was all included in the original amount, and no further Estimate is needed.
§ Viscount CASTLEREAGHThere are liabilities for increased prices of paper. Naturally, if there is an increase in the price of paper, it comes under this heading.
Mr. WORTHINGTON-EVANSMay I call the Committee's attention to the note on page 19, which deals with another portion of the Insurance Act Estimate. The note says:—
In addition to the above, expenditure will be incurred by various Government Departments for office accommodation, rates, stationery and printing, postage, etc., and defrayed from their Votes.When we come back to the Vote now under consideration the Financial Secretary to the Treasury informed us that the £10,000 was included in that Vote, though whether it was for the Buntingford Association or not I cannot say.
§ Mr. MASTERMANAll the paper for the Papers presented to Parliament were under Vote K, and no Supplementary Estimate is required.
§ The CHAIRMANIn any case, it seems to me it is not in order on a Vote for printing to discuss matters of policy.
§ Mr. RUPERT GWYNNEMy object was to point out that it was extravagant. A certain amount of printing incurred at the instance of the Chancellor of the Exchequer was quite unnecessary, and should not have been done. This Report was wholly unnecessary at the time, and has been of no benefit either to the Bunting-ford Association or to the public generally. That association was merely quoted for the purpose of endeavouring to prove the Chancellor of the Exchequer was wrong in regard to a certain argument.
§ The CHAIRMANIt is quite clear that matter can be discussed on a Motion to reduce the Vote for the salary of the Chancellor of the Exchequer. It is some administrative act for which the hon. Member wishes to make the Chancellor of the Exchequer responsible.
§ Mr. RUPERT GWYNNEWe say there is a large amount for paper and printing which has been unnecessarily spent, and in order to discuss that we must refer to the reason. I think the responsibility rests upon the Chancellor of the Exchequer to show why he gave the order and why he has wasted the public money.
§ The CHAIRMANIf that argument held good, it would be possible to discuss every other Department in the State in connection with this Vote, and, obviously that would be a reductio ad absurdum.
§ Mr. RUPERT GWYNNETen thousand pounds has been spent at the instance of the Chancellor of the Exchequer and his subordinates in regard to the Insurance Act. Surely it cannot be said to be unreasonable to raise one point with regard to that £10,000.
§ Mr. POLLOCKI desire to ask for a little more explanation with regard to Sub-heads F, H, I, J and N. It is said these additional amounts are required to meet unforeseen liabilities. How much of this has been used for administering the Insurance Act? I understand the Financial Secretary to say it did not include paper. It cannot include much binding. It cannot include books and maps for public Departments. Then we come to the miscellaneous small stores for public Departments. It is important, as the hon. Member for Colchester (Mr. Worthington-Evans) pointed 1070 out, to remember that we have already had a sum of £500 for incidental expenses under Class VIII. It cannot be that administering the Insurance Act requires an increased Vote for the Parliamentary Debates and records. In going through these items, I cannot see which include matters for administering the Insurance Act, and I think the Committee should be told at the earliest possible stage what is the amount already spent for administering that Act, seeing that finance is the whole background of the matter, and we want to know from the start to finish exactly what has been expended. It is important that the expenditure in connection with the Act should be kept straight from the very first moment, and, therefore, I hope the Financial Secretary will give us the actual figures with regard to the items included in this Vote, as, without those figures, a great number of hon. Members will feel that the information forthcoming is wholly insufficient to meet the importance of the case.
§ Mr. FELLI think it is very unfortunate that an item of £49,000 should be explained in the way it is in this Vote. We cannot tell, for instance, whether it represents the cost of paper or the increased price of paper. It may be, or it may not be, a matter of bad Estimates. We were, told that the estimate does not include the paper relating to the Buntingford Society. I should like to know does it include the advertisements and circulars issued by the Commissioners when, calling the meetings to be addressed by lecturers, as that may affect the votes some of us will give on this question. I should like to know, too, how far it affects the meetings convened in Scotland and Ireland. I protest very strongly against expenditure on the circulars calling these meetings, and I shall, if necessary, move a reduction of the Vote as a protest against it. Then, again, we have been told that some of the expense is in connection with the transfer of the National Telephone Company, and I must confess I do not see why that should appear in this Vote at all.
§ Mr. C. BATHURSTI desire to refer to the item for books and maps for public Departments. That shows an increase from £47,000 to £49,000, a very large sum for Departmental publications. I have reason to believe it is largely attributable to reports and pamphlets issued by experts of the various Departments, and particularly of the Local Government Board. Those reports and pamphlets very often 1071 contain elaborately decorated diagrams which are extremely well produced. Their production might be justified if there were any great sale for the publications, but, as a matter of fact, there is an exceedingly small demand for them, and I think the House should, in the interests of public economy, bring pressure to bear on the various Departments, and particularly on the Local Government Board, to prevent their experts, as a matter of departmental vanity, publishing Blue Books with expensive diagrams. Then there is the item for "miscellaneous small stores." That shows a proportionate increase of 9 per cent., and, I think, the House is entitled to learn from the hon. Gentleman something of the details of these stores.
§ Viscount CASTLEREAGHThe expenditure under this heading appears to be of a most unsatisfactory character. Supplementary Estimates are matters of great difficulty to most hon. Members, and those under the headings we are now dealing with appear to be of a very evasive character. Our attention is called to the length of the Session. I should like to know how long hon. Members are going to use that as an excuse, because, since the time I have had the honour of being in this House, it seems to have become an understood thing that we shall sit for eleven months in the year. I think it would be advisable, therefore, if hon. Gentlemen on the Treasury Bench would realise that these items cannot any longer continue under the head of Supplementary Estimates of expenditure. Under various items I do not think that the Government can hope to escape from very severe censure for their extravagance. I should like some explanation as to the actual proportion of the increased price paid for paper. Has paper increased in value to such an abnormal extent as to justify the outlay under this heading? I should like to ask, further, whether the increase of business in connection with the Admiralty, the War Office, and the Inland Revenue have been of such abnormal dimensions as to justify this increased demand? Until I came into this House I had always believed that the Radical party were the exponents of economy, but I am now beginning to hold the opinion that the hon. Baronet the Member for the City of London is one of the few individuals who is really desirous of carrying out economy and of assisting the Chancellor of the Exchequer in that direction, although a more extravagant 1072 Chancellor of the Exchequer, I believe, never sat on that bench. There is an item in connection with the Parliamentary Debates which, I think, shows an increase of something like 60 per cent. on the original Estimate. We were called upon earlier in the evening to ratify a decision come to by the Commissioners, of whom, I think, Mr. Speaker is Chairman, in connection with that Department; but here we have another item showing an increase of £4,500, and I think we are entitled to some explanation of the details.
Mr. WORTHINGTON-EVANSThere is only one question I wish to put, and that is with regard to the amount provided in the Supplementary Estimates for stationery and printing for administering the Insurance Act. We cannot, of course, discuss the administration of the Department, but I think we are entitled to know which of the various Departments has spent the sum of £10,000 which is asked for for extra printing and stationery, and we ought to know under what heading it has been spent. There will be a discussion later on regarding the administration of the Act, and, in order to make it intelligent, we should know which Departments are responsible for this expenditure. There is nothing to show at present whether it is the Treasury, the Insurance Commissioners, or any particular set of Commissioners that have been guilty of what may prove to have been extravagant outlay. We ought to know whether this includes the charges for posters announcing meetings; we want, in fact, to be able to judge what have been the activities of the Department.
§ 8.0 P.M.
§ Mr. MASTERMANThe first question put to me was that of the hon. Baronet the Member for the City of London (Sir F. Banbury), who asked me if the Estimate included any charge for paper for the Buntingford Society Report. The answer is in the negative. The paper voted in Subhead K for papers presented to the House covers that, and there is no necessity for any Supplementary Vote in connection with it. That is also a reply to the hon. Member for Eastbourne. That hon. Member complained that we had expended £10,000 in explaining the Insurance Act, but this is not a Vote for that purpose. It is a Stationery Office Vote. It represents stores drawn from the Stationery Office for various insurance purposes, and it includes paper, binding of books, stores, and other matters which are included in 1073 the Supplementary Estimate. The hon. Member for Yarmouth (Mr. Fell) asked me if the extra cost of paper was due to an increase in the price of paper. That is so. The cost of paper has gone up. It is the custom of the Stationery Office not to make running contracts, but to make short contracts. The result has been due to the going up of paper by something like one-tenth of a penny, which is largely due to good trade, and it has cost the Stationery Office something like £7,000 more than was asked for.
§ Viscount CASTLEREAGHIs it due to the shortage of foreign imports or not?
§ Mr. MASTERMANI do not think so. All the paper that is bought by the Stationery Office is bought from manufacturers in the United Kingdom. I was asked the question whether the Supplementary Estimate includes any money for advertisements. It does not include any advertisements or printing, but I suppose it does include the cost of any paper for posters. The hon. Member for Yarmouth asked for an explanation of the note in connection with the business of the National Telephone Company transfer. It is stationery and stores and books to be used now that the company is taken over by the State. It was impossible in 1910 to estimate how much of this extra paper would be wanted. It is thought that this additional sum will be spent by the 31st March, upon such stores. The hon. Member for the Wilton Division of Wilts (Mr. C. Bathurst) asked which Departments dealt with, books and maps. This item is largely made up by the expenditure of the Admiralty, not of the Local Government Board. The Admiralty have been issuing text-books for dockyard hands, and revised text-books for men in the schools, especially in the gunnery and torpedo departments.
§ Mr. C. BATHURSTDo they contain diagrams?
§ Mr. MASTERMANThat I cannot answer. I think the hon. Member will agree that the expenditure is a good one, seeing that it is for seamen engaged in the Royal Navy.
§ Mr. C. BATHURSTMay I ask whether it would be possible by way of footnote or otherwise that the expenditure in the several Departments under this head 1074 should be given, for some of them are very extravagant, and some are not so extravagant.
§ Mr. MASTERMANThe hon. Gentleman will recognise that I have only been for a fortnight at the Treasury, but before any other Supplementary Estimates are produced next year—I hope they will be very few—I will gladly consider that suggestion. The Noble Lord the Member for Maidstone (Viscount Castlereagh) asked me how much of the Estimate was due to the increased price of paper. It was £7,000.
§ Viscount CASTLEREAGHIs the price of paper all included in this Vote?
§ Mr. MASTERMANYes. It is all included in this Vote. As to the Parliamentary Debates, the Estimate was for 120 days, which was supposed to be a normal Session of Parliament. The increase is an increase on a regular scale. There is no question of any arbitrary increase one way or the other, and it has been largely produced by the all-night sittings and the sitting right up to Christmas. As to the questions on the Insurance Act, all the money of this Estimate of £10,000 represents the stores issued by the Stationery Department to the four Commissions under the Insurance Act, and to the Board of Trade for the second part of the Insurance Act. The items represent something like £7,000 for paper, of which it is estimated that £4,500 relates to the sick part and the Insurance Commission work, and £2,500 to the second part and the Board of Trade work. The rest is made up by the necessary books, bindings, small stores, type-writing machines, and the necessary apparatus to equip, so far as the Stationery Office equips, the offices of the four Commissions and the extra required by the Board of Trade. It is roughly estimated that of the £4,500 of new paper, which will be required before the 31st March, not more than £600 or £700 will be required for the actual leaflets. The rest will be for the ordinary work of the Department—circulars, and so on. I should like to call the attention of the Committee to the fact that a Committee dealing with the whole question of the House of Commons' publications, which was designed to produce still greater economy, has been reappointed this year, and that the Committee presented an interim report last December, which has 1075 been before me in my new Office, and I hope that some of their recommendations we shall be able to put into immediate operation.
§ Mr. POLLOCKI quite follow the explanation of the hon. Member as to the expenditure on paper, typewriting machines, and the necessary equipment for the Insurance Office. That I do not care much about. What I want to know is what is the total amount in this Estimate which should be debited to the Insurance Act? It is all very well to say about £7,000. The hon. Gentleman was good enough to distribute that into £4,500 for the sick portion, and £2,500 for the Board of Trade administration. I want to know not how the £7,000 is distributed, but what is the total amount which is to be found in these five several headings which is due to the passing of the Insurance Act.
§ Mr. MASTERMANI thought I had already given the answer to the hon. Member for Colchester this afternoon. £10,000 is the Supplementary Estimate.
§ Sir F. BANBURYI beg to Move, to reduce Item F (Paper for Public Departments) by £1,200. I am very much obliged to the hon. Member for answering all the questions. I am sorry that I am not altogether satisfied with any of them. The first item provides for an increase of £33,000. The original Estimate was an increase of £25,000. That makes an increase of £58,000 on a sum, voted in the year 1910–11, of £225,000. That is to say, that in one short year there has been an increase of 35 per cent. in the cost of paper. The hon. Gentleman says that is owing to good trade. Of course, everything has gone up, but if I had been asked the reason I
§ should have given another reason of a totally different character, one which would not have been so pleasant to hon. Gentlemen opposite.
§ Mr. ASHLEYWhat is that?
§ Sir F. BANBURYThe bad administration by Government Departments. At any rate, that would be one reason. I think the Committee ought to take some note of this extraordinary increase in the cost of paper. Why we should spend something like £250,000 on paper, and why we should spend it in this particular year, is beyond my comprehension. I do not blame the hon. Gentleman, because he was not at the Treasury at the time, but why is it that his predecessor could not have foreseen, with some degree of accuracy, what the cost of paper was going to be? The hon. Gentleman said that the Stationary Office did not make their contracts very far ahead. If he was under the impression that there was going to be such good trade owing to the advent of the Radical Government, he should have made his contracts a long way ahead. In all commercial undertakings we do not wait until an article is rising before making our contracts. We make them beforehand. Apparently that is not the procedure in this Office. I therefore beg to Move a reduction—item F be reduced £12,000, first as a protest against extravagence, and secondly, to mark our sense of their want of judgement when they knew that trade was good, and that it would increase the price of paper, they did not make their contracts a long way ahead.
§ Question put, "That Item F (Paper for Public Departments) be reduced by £12,000.
§ The Committee divided: Ayes, 78; Noes, 161.
1077| Division No. 8.] | AYES. | [8.12 p.m. |
| Agg-Gardner, James Tynte | Campbell, Capt. Duncan F. (Ayr, N.) | Herbert, Hon. A. (Somerset, S.) |
| Aitken, Sir William Max | Castlereagh, Viscount | Hills, John Waller (Durham) |
| Archer-Shee, Major M. | Cave, George | Hohler, G. F. |
| Ashley, Wilfrid W. | Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) | Hope, Harry (Bute) |
| Bagot, Lieut.-Colonel J. | Cooper, Richard Ashmole | Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield) |
| Balcarres, Lord | Craig, Captain James (Down, E.) | Ingleby, Holcombe |
| Baldwin, Stanley | Denniss, E. R. B. | Licker-Lampson, G. (Salisbury) |
| Barnston, H. | Duke, Henry Edward | Locker-Lampson, O. (Ramsey) |
| Bathurst, Charles (Wilton) | Faber, George D. (Clapham) | Long, Rt. Hon. Walter |
| Beckett, Hon. Gervase | Fetherstonhaugh, Godfrey | Lonsdale, Sir John Browniee |
| Benn, Arthur Shirley (Plymouth) | Flannery, Sir J. Fortescue | Lyttelton, Hon. J. C. (Droitwich) |
| Bennett-Goldney, Francis | Gardner, Ernest | M'Calmont, Colonel James |
| Bigland, Alfred | Gastrell, Major W. H. | Magnus, Sir Philip |
| Bird, A. | Goldman, C. S. | Malcolm, Ian |
| Boyle, W. Lewis (Norfolk, Mid) | Gordon, Hon. John Edward (Brighton) | Morrison-Bell, Capt. E. F. (Ashburton) |
| Boyton, James | Gordon, John (Londonderry, South) | Morrison-Bell, Major A. C. (Honiton) |
| Bridgeman, W. Clive | Gretton, John | Neville, Reginald J. N. |
| Burn, Col. C. R. | Gwynne, R. S. (Sussex, Eastbourne) | Newton, Harry Kottingham |
| Butcher, J. G. | Henderson, Major H. (Berks, Abingdon) | Nield, Herbert |
| Orde-Powiett, Hon. W. G. A. | Salter, Arthur Clavell | Thomson, W. Mitchell- (Down, N.) |
| Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington) | Sanders, Robert A. | Thynne, Lord Alexander |
| Peto, Basil Edward | Sanderson, Lancelot | Valentia, Viscount |
| Pollock, Ernest Murray | Sandys, G. J. (Somerset, Wells) | Wood, John (Stalybridge) |
| Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel | Spear, Sir John Ward | Yate, Colonel C. E. |
| Rawson, Col. Richard H. | Stanley, Hon. G. F. (Preston) | |
| Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall) | Stewart, Gershom | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Sir F. Banbury and Mr. Fell. |
| Rutherford, Watson (L'pool, W. Derby) | Sykes, Mark (Hull, Central) | |
| NOES. | ||
| Abraham, William (Dublin Harbour) | Guest, Hon. Frederick E. (Dorset, E.) | O'Malley, William |
| Addison, Dr. C. | Gwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway) | O'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, S.) |
| Adkins, Sir W. Ryland D. | Hackett, J. | O'Shaughnessy, P. J. |
| Agnew, Sir George William | Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose) | O'Sullivan, Timothy |
| Alden, Percy | Harmsworth, Cecil (Luton, Beds.) | Parker, James (Halifax) |
| Baker, Joseph A. (Finsbury, E.) | Harmsworth, R. L. (Caithness-shire) | Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek) |
| Balfour, Sir Robert (Lanark) | Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N. E.) | Pease, Rt. Hon. Joseph A. (Rotherham) |
| Beale, W. P. | Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth) | Phillips, John (Longford, S.) |
| Beck, Arthur Cecil | Hayden, John Patrick | Pointer, Joseph |
| Benn, W. W. (T. H'mts., St. George) | Hayward, Evan | Power, Patrick Joseph |
| Bethell, Sir John Henry | Herbert, Col. Sir Ivor (Mon., S.) | Priestley, Sir W. E. B. (Bradford, E.) |
| Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine | Hinds, John | Pringle, William M. R. |
| Black, Arthur W. | Hodge, John | Radford, G. H. |
| Booth, Frederick Handel | Hogge, James Myles | Raphael, Sir Herbert H. |
| Bowerman, C. W. | Holmes, Daniel Thomas | Rea, Rt. Hon. Russell (South Shields) |
| Brady, Patrick Joseph | Horne, Charles Silvester (Ipswich) | Rea, Walter Russell (Scarborough) |
| Bryce, J. Annan | Howard, Hon. Geoffrey | Reddy, Michael |
| Buckmaster, Stanley O. | Hughes, S. L. | Richardson, Albion (Peckham) |
| Burns, Rt. Hon. John | Jones, Edgar (Merthyr Tydvil) | Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln) |
| Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas | Jones, William (Carnarvonshire) | Robertson, John M. (Tyneside) |
| Buxton, Noel (Norfolk, N.) | Joyce, Michael | Robinson, Sidney |
| Byles, Sir William Pollard | Kilbride, Denis | Roche, Augustine (Louth) |
| Carr-Gomm, H. W. | King, J. | Rowlands, James |
| Cawley, Harold T. (Heywood) | Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade) | Rowntree, Arnold |
| Chancellor, Henry George | Leach, Charles | Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter |
| Chapple, Dr. W. A. | Levy, Sir Maurice | Russell, Rt. Hon. Thomas W. |
| Clough, William | Lewis, John Herbert | Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland) |
| Collins, Stephen (Lambeth) | Lundon, T. | Sheehy, David |
| Compton-Rickett, Rt. Hon. Sir J. | Lyell, Charles Henry | Shortt, Edward |
| Cotton, William Francis | Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester) | Smith, Albert (Lancs., Clitherge) |
| Cowan, W. H. | McGhee, Richard | Snowden, P. |
| Crumley, Patrick | Macnamara, Rt. Hon. Dr. T. J. | Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe) |
| Davies, David (Montgomery Co.) | MacNeill, John G. S. (Donegal, South) | Thomas, J. H. (Derby) |
| Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.) | Macpherson, James Ian | Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton) |
| Delany, William | MacVeagh, Jeremiah | Ure, Rt. Hon. Alexander |
| Denman, Hon. R. D. | M'Callum, John M. | Verney, Sir Harry |
| Devlin, Joseph | M'Laren, Hon. F.W.S. (Lincs., Spalding) | Walsh, Stephen (Lancs., Ince) |
| Dillon, John | M'Micking, Major Gilbert | Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent) |
| Donelan, Captain A. | Masterman, C. F. G. | Wardle, George J. |
| Doris, W. | Meagher, Michael | Watt, Henry A. |
| Duffy, William J. | Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.) | Webb, H. |
| Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness) | Menzies, Sir Walter | White, Sir Luke (York, E. R.) |
| Edwards, Clement (Glamorgan, E.) | Molloy, M. | White, Patrick (Meath, North) |
| Edwards, John Hugh (Glamorgan, Mid) | Molteno, Percy Alport | Whitehouse, John Howard |
| Ffrench, Peter | Mooney, J. J. | Whittaker, Rt. Hon. Sir Thomas P. |
| Flavin, Michael Joseph | Morton, Alpheus Cleophas | Wilkie, Alexander |
| Furness, Stephen | Munro, R. | Williams, J. (Glamorgan) |
| George, Rt. Hon. D. Lloyd | Nannetti, Joseph P. | Williams, Llewelyn (Carmarthen) |
| Gill, A. H. | Neilson, Francis | Williams, Penry (Middlesbrough) |
| Gladstone, W. G. C. | Nolan, Joseph | Wilson, Hon. G. G. (Hull, W.) |
| Glanville, H. J. | Nuttall, Harry | Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton) |
| Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford | O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) | |
| Goldstone, Frank | O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool) | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr. Illingworth and Mr. Gulland. |
| Greenwood, Hamar (Sunderland) | O'Donnell, Thomas | |
| Griffith, Ellis Jones | O'Dowd, John |
§ Sir F. BANBURYI beg to move to reduce Item H (Binding, etc.), by £2,000.
This item of £4,000 is an addition to an addition. The original Vote provided for an increase of £1,000 over last year, and this Vote brings the increase up to £5,000 on the item of binding. The Secretary to the Treasury will probably say this item shows an increase because there has been a very large number of papers and documents, which are totally unnecessary, 1078 which, owing to the length of the Session, and from a variety of other reasons, had to be found. For a party pledged to economy this is an increase which cannot be justified. Last year the expenditure was larger than it has ever been with one exception, and then the expenditure included a certain amount of money which was raised by loan. The actual sum raised by taxes for the year we are now discussing is the largest that has ever been raised in the history of this country.
§ Mr. JAMES HOPEI should like to know what records have been bound. I take it the ordinary Blue Books and so on are not bound except one copy for each Department, and the ordinary Parliamentary Papers are very limited in number. Therefore I suppose the only item for which the account is increased is the binding of the volumes of the OFFICIAL REPORT, which I suppose are supplied to all the 670 Members. Is that so, or are there any other Papers which are bound in that respect? Even taking the whole 670, I do not think the binding of the extra volumes can possibly account for £4,000. Surely it was estimated that the last Session would last to some date like the middle of August at least. Does the Secretary to the Treasury mean to say that £4,000 was spent on the binding of the OFFICIAL REPORT for October, November, and part of December! If not that, what was the binding? The telephone directories are not bound. I have had one or two copies. They come unbound and they very soon go to pieces.
§ Mr. JOHN WARDI should think the probabilities are that the Proposer and Seconder of the Amendment, by their own practice, answer the question they have put. I should imagine that the speeches of the hon. Member who seconded the Amendment (Mr. J. Hope), and certainly the speeches of the hon. Baronet who proposed it, would be responsible for almost every item of extra expenditure under this head. If we knew the amount the hon. Baronet has cost the nation, it is a moral certainty that it would be a remarkable sum. If the hon. Baronet and the hon. Member for the Central Division of Sheffield are so anxious to reduce expenditure, there is a way they can reduce it, I am sure, by more than the amount of the increase on the Estimate on this occasion. It is not necessary for me to point out the way, for I am sure it is self-evident to all hon. Members.
§ Sir F. BANBURYIf the hon. Member will give me information as to how I can reduce expenditure, I shall be glad to receive it. This is an item for binding. How can I reduce the expenditure on binding? In what way have I contributed
§ to the expenses for binding? I think the hon. Member must have made a mistake. He must have been thinking of the reports of speeches.
§ Mr. MacVEAGHThe more speeches you make the more binding has to be done.
§ Sir F. BANBURYI cannot see that the duration of my speeches can have any effect on the cost of binding. If the hon. Member can give me any advice as to the way in which I can reduce, not only this expenditure but other expenditure, I shall be extremely glad.
§ Mr. FELLThere is one explanation which possibly has not occurred to the hon. Baronet. This is the first item in which the word "etc." occurs. I think when we get an explanation we shall find that the additional expenditure is accounted for by the word "etc."
§ Mr. MASTERMANI am afraid I cannot ask the Committee to accept the explanation that this expenditure has been confined to the binding up of the hon. Baronet's speeches, or other speeches. That does not come under this Vote. The binding referred to here includes various items. I think all the expenditure given in this Estimate is for items which of necessity were unforeseen. They are practically only three in number—old age pensions, the takng over of the telephones, and the Insurance Act. In the case of old age pensions a considerable proportion of the expenditure has been due to providing loose-leaf ledgers to pension officers, largely owing to increased work. It was quite impossible in November, 1910, for those who made the original Estimates to know what would be required for the Insurance Act. Practically a new Department has been started with different branches, and all that Department has to be fully equipped with ledgers and miscellaneous other things.
§ Question put, "That Item H (Binding, etc.), be reduced by. £2,000."
§ The Committee divided: Ayes, 73; Noes, 162.
1081| Division No. 9.] | AYES. | [8.30 p.m. |
| Agg-Gardner, James Tynte | Bathurst, Charles (Wilts, Wilton) | Bridgeman, W. Clive |
| Aitken, Sir William Max | Beckett, Hon. Gervase | Burn, Colonel C. R. |
| Archer-Shee, Major Martin | Benn, Arthur Shirley (Plymout) | Butcher, John George |
| Ashley, Wilfrid W. | Bennett-Goldney, Francis | Campbell, Capt. Duncan F. (Ayr, N.) |
| Bagot, Lieut.-Colonel J. | Bigland, Alfred | Castlereagh, Viscount |
| Balcarres, Lord | Bird, Alfred | Cave, George |
| Baldwin, Stanley | Boyle, W. Lewis (Norfolk, Mid) | Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) |
| Barnston, H. | Boyton, James | Cooper, Richard Ashmole |
| Craig, Captain James (Down, E.) | Ingleby, Holcombe | Rutherford, Watson (L'pool, W. Derby) |
| Denniss, E. R. B. | Locker-Lampson, G. (Salisbury) | Salter, Arthur Clavell |
| Duke, Henry Edward | Locker-Lampson, O. (Ramsey) | Sanders, Robert A. |
| Fell, Arthur | Lyttelton, Hon. J. G. (Droitwich) | Sanderson, Lancelot |
| Fetherstonhaugh, Godfrey | McNeill, Ronald, Kent (St Augustine) | Sandys, G. J. (Somerset, Wells) |
| Flannery, Sir J. Fortescue | Malcolm, Ian | Spear, Sir John Ward |
| Gardner, Ernest | Morrison-Bell, Capt. E. F. (Ashburton) | Stanley, Hon. G. F. (Preston) |
| Gastrell, Major W. Houghton | Morrison-Bell, Major A. C. (Honiton) | Stewart, Gershom |
| Goldman, C. S. | Neville, Reginald J. N. | Sykes, Mark (Hull, Central) |
| Gordon, John (Londonderry, South) | Newton, Harry Kottingham | Thomson, W. Mitchell- (Down, N.) |
| Gordon, Hon. John Edward (Brighton) | Nield, Herbert | Thynne, Lord Alexander |
| Gretton, John | Orde-Powlet, Hon. William | Valentia, Viscount |
| Henderson, Major H. (Berkshire) | Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington) | Wood, John (Stalybridge) |
| Herbert, Hon. A. (Somerset, S.) | Peto, Basil Edward | Yate, Col. C. E. |
| Hills, John Waller- | Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel | |
| Hohler, Gerald Fitzroy | Rawson, Col. Richard H. | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Sir F. Banbury and Mr. Pollock. |
| Hope, Harry (Bute) | Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall) | |
| Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield) | ||
| NOES. | ||
| Abraham, William (Dublin Harbour) | Gwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway) | O'Dowd, John |
| Addison, Dr. Christopher | Hackett, John | O'Malley, William |
| Adkins, Sir W. Ryland D. | Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose) | O'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, S.) |
| Agnew, Sir George William | Harmsworth, Cecil (Luton, Beds.) | O'Shaughnessy, P. J. |
| Alden, Percy | Harmsworth, R. L. (Caithness-shire) | O'Sullivan Timothy |
| Baker, Joseph Allen (Finsbury, E.) | Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N. E.) | Parker, James (Halifax) |
| Balfour, Sir Robert (Lanark) | Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth) | Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek) |
| Beck, Arthur | Hayden, John Patrick | Phillips, John (Longford, S.) |
| Benn, W. W. (T. H'mts., St. George) | Hayward, Evan | Pointer, Joseph |
| Bethell, Sir John Henry | Herbert, Col. Sir Ivor (Mon., S.) | Power, Patrick Joseph |
| Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine | Hinds, John | Pringle, William M. R. |
| Black, Arthur W. | Hodge, John | Radford, George Heynes |
| Booth, Frederick Handel | Hogge, James Myles | Raphael, Sir Herbert H. |
| Bowerman, C. W. | Holmes, Daniel Thomas | Rea, Rt. Hon. Russell (S. Shields) |
| Brady, Patrick Joseph | Horne, G. Silvester (Ipswich) | Rea, Walter Russell (Scarborough) |
| Bryce, J. Annan | Howard, Hon. Geoffrey | Reddy, Michael |
| Buckmaster, Stanley O. | Hughes, Spencer Leigh | Richardson, Albion (Peckham) |
| Burns, Rt. Hon. John | Jones, Edgar R. (Merthyr Tydvil) | Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln) |
| Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas | Jones, William (Carnarvonshire) | Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside) |
| Buxton, Noel (Norfolk, N.) | Jowett, F. W. | Robinson, Sidney |
| Byles, Sir William Pollard | Joyce, Michael | Roche, Augustine (Louth) |
| Carr-Gomm, H. W. | Keating, Matthew | Rowlands, James |
| Cawley, H. T. (Lancs., Heywood) | Kilbride, Denis | Rowntree, Arnold |
| Chancellor, Henry George | King, Joseph (Somerset, North) | Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter |
| Clancy, Join Joseph | Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade) | Russell, Rt. Hon. Thomas W. |
| Clough, William | Leach, Charles | Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland) |
| Collins, Stephen (Lambeth) | Levy, Sir Maurice | Sheehy, David |
| Compton-Rickett, Rt. Hon. Sir J. | Lewis, John Herbert | Short, Edward |
| Cotton, William Francis | Lundon, Thomas | Smith, Albert (Lancs., Clitheroe) |
| Cowan, W. H. | Lyell, Charles Henry | Snowden, Philip |
| Crumley, Patrick | McGhee, Richard | Stanley, Albert (Staffs., N. W.) |
| Davies, David (Montgomery Co.) | Macnamara, Rt. Hon. Dr. T. J. | Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe) |
| Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.) | MacNeill, John G. S. (Donegal, South) | Thomas, J. H. (Derby) |
| Delany, William | Macpherson, James Ian | Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton) |
| Denman, Hon. R. D. | MacVeagn, Jeremiah | Trevelyan, Charles Philips |
| Devlin, Joseph | M'Callum, John M. | Ure, Rt. Hon. Alexander |
| Dillon, John | McKenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald | Verney, Sir Harry |
| Donelan, Captain A. | M'Laren, Hon. F.W.S. (Lincs., Spalding) | Walsh, Stephen (Lancs., Ince) |
| Doris, William | M'Micking, Major Gilbert | Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent) |
| Duffy, William J. | Markham, Sir Arthur Basil | Wardle, George J. |
| Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness) | Masterman, C. F. G. | Watt, Henry A. |
| Edwards, Clement (Glamorgan, E.) | Meagher, Michael | Webb, H. |
| Edwards, Sir Francis (Radnor) | Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.) | White, Sir Luke (York, E. R.) |
| Edwards, John Hugh (Glamorgan, Mid) | Menzles, Sir Walter | White, Patrick (Meath, North) |
| Ferens, Rt. Hon. Thomas Robinson | Molloy, Michael | Whitehouse, John Howard |
| Ffrench, Peter | Mooney, John J. | Whittaker, Rt. Hon. Sir Thomas P. |
| Flavin, Michael Joseph | Morton, Alpheus Cleophas | Wilkie, Alexander |
| Furness, Stephen W. | Munro, Robert | Williams, John (Glamorgan) |
| Gill, A. H. | Nannetti, Joseph P. | Williams, Llewelyn (Carmarthen) |
| Gladstone, W. G. C. | Neilson, Francis | Williams, Penry (Middlesbrough) |
| Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford | Nolan, Joseph | Wilson, Hon. G. G. (Hull, W.) |
| Goldstone, Frank | Nuttail, Harry | Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton) |
| Greenwood, Hamar (Sunderland) | O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) | |
| Griffith, Ellis J. | O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool) | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr. Illingworth and Mr. Gulland. |
| Guest, Hon. Frederick E. (Dorset, E.) | O'Donnell, Thomas |
§ Mr. POLLOCKI beg to move, to reduce Item I (Books and Maps for Public Departments) £500. The hon. Baronet the Member for the City of London has handed me the original Estimates, and I see that out of all the Estimates under this Vote 1082 the only one in respect of which a credit was taken for a reduction was this one of books and maps for public Departments, that is, save a small reduction of £300 under another Vote, But in order to keep the Estimates down the Government 1083 apparently took credit to themselves that they were able to make a reduction of £2,000 in this item. It is a curious thing, if the Government did intend to reduce and hoped they would be able to reduce this item by £2,000, they are able now to come to the House and ask for the exact replacement of this £2,000. I could understand a sum of £1,500 or some other figure, it might be more or less, but this is asking the Committee to replace by the exact sum the amount for which credit was taken in the Estimates for 1910–11. Without giving us any more information we suddenly find that this credit which they expected to be realised has not been realised. We have not got any figures of the exact amount by which they failed to realise their anticipations, and we are asked to replace the exact sum of £2,000 and not a specific sum by which the Estimate has been in fact increased. That is very unsatisfactory indeed, and accordingly, I move the reduction of this Vote by the sum of £500.
§ Mr. MASTERMANI think that I have given an explanation of this in my first explanation to the hon. and learned Gentleman. I think that he will agree with me that the increased Estimate in the Supplementary Estimate is really dealing with circumstances which could not be foreseen, with the possible exception of what I understood the Committee as a whole approved, that is the increased cost of books for the Admiralty. The Admiralty, in connection with their scheme for the improvement in the education of the sailor, have had to expend a certain amount on textbooks, especially on gunnery. That accounts for about half of the increased
§ surplus Estimate. The rest is made up of the books and maps required by the Insurance Commissioners, which could not have been foreseen, and—
§ Mr. POLLOCKWhat maps?
§ Mr. MASTERMANI cannot tell you the maps that are required, but there are the various books that are needed for the equipment of the Commission, and there are also additional books which were required when we took over the National Telephone Company.
§ Sir F. BANBURYI do not see why the Insurance Commissioners should be provided with maps. I do not know what they are going to gain by maps, or how they are going to give 9d. for 4d. by having a map. It is an absolute waste of money. When the Insurance Commissioners go down with the benevolent intention of giving 9d. for 4d. all they want to know is who is bound to come in. They do not want any map to find out who are the employers. The ordinary postal guide I should have thought would be sufficient, or an "A B C," as my hon. and learned Friend suggests. The explanation given is most unsatisfactory, and is a different explanation from that which was first given. The first explanation was the increase was due to books for the Admiralty, and now it appears that only part of it was for the Admiralty.
§ Question put: "That Item I (Books and Maps for Public Departments) be reduced by £500."
§ The Committee divided: Ayes, 68; Noes, 161.
1085| Division No. 10.] | AYES. | [8.45 p.m. |
| Agg-Gardner, James Tynte | Craig, Captain James (Down, E.) | Neville, Reginald J. N. |
| Aitken, Sir William Max | Denniss, E. R. B. | Newton, Harry Kottingham |
| Archer-Shoe, Major M. | Duke, Henry Edward | Orde-Powlett, Hon. W. G. A. |
| Ashley, W. W. | Fell, Arthur | Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington) |
| Bagot, Lieut.-Colonel J. | Fetherstonhaugh, Godfrey | Peto, Basil Edward |
| Balcarres, Lord | Gardner, Ernest | Rawlinson, J. F. P. |
| Baldwin, Stanley | Gastrell, Major W. H. | Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall) |
| Banbury, Sir Frederick George | Goldman, C. S. | Rutherford, Watson (L'pool, W. Derby) |
| Barnston, Harry | Gordon, John (Londonderry, South) | Salter, Arthur Clavell |
| Bathurst, Charles (Wilton) | Gordon, Hon. John Edward (Brighton) | Sanders, Robert A. |
| Beckett, Hon. Gervase | Gretton, John | Sandys, G. J. (Somerset, Wells) |
| Benn, Arthur Shirley (Plymouth) | Henderson, Major H. (Berks., Abingdon) | Spear, Sir John Ward |
| Bennett-Goldney, Francis | Hills, John Waller | Stanley, Hon. G. F. (Preston) |
| Bigland, Alfred | Hohler, G. Fitzroy | Stewart, Gershom |
| Bird, A. | Hope, Harry (Bute) | Sykes, Mark (Hull, Central) |
| Boyle, W. L. (Norfolk, Mid) | Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield) | Thomson, W. Mitchell- (Down, North) |
| Boyton, J. | Ingleby, Holcombe | Thynne, Lord Alexander |
| Bridgeman, W. Clive | Locker-Lampson, G. (Salisbury) | Valentia, Viscount |
| Burn, Col. C. R. | Locker-Lampson, O. (Ramsey) | Wood, John (Stalybridge) |
| Campbell, Capt. Duncan F. (Ayr, N.) | Lyttelton, Hon. J. C. (Droitwich) | Yate, Col. C. E. |
| Castlereagh, Viscount | McNeill, Ronald (Kent, St. Augustine) | |
| Cave, George | Malcolm, Ian | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr. Pollock and Mr. Sanderson. |
| Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) | Morrison-Bell, Capt. E. F. (Ashburton) | |
| Cooper, Richard Ashmole | Morrison-Bell, Major A. C. (Honiton) | |
| NOES. | ||
| Abraham, William (Dublin Harbour) | Hackett, J. | O'Malley, William |
| Addison, Dr. C. | Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose) | O'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, S.) |
| Adkins, Sir W. Ryland D. | Harmsworth, Cecil (Luton, Beds.) | O'Shaughnessy, P. J. |
| Agnew, Sir George William | Harmsworth, R. L. (Caithness-shire) | O'Sullivan, Timothy |
| Alden, Percy | Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N. E.) | Parker, James (Halifax) |
| Baker, Joseph A. (Finsbury, E.) | Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth) | Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek) |
| Balfour, Sir Robert (Lanark) | Hayden, John Patrick | Phillips, John (Longford, S.) |
| Beck, Arthur Cecil | Hayward, Evan | Pointer, Joseph |
| Benn, W. W. (T. Hamlets, St. George) | Herbert, Col. Sir Ivor (Hon., S.) | Power, Patrick Joseph |
| Bethell, Sir J. H. | Hinds, John | Pringle, William M. R. |
| Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine | Hodge, John | Radford, G. H. |
| Black, Arthur W. | Hogge, James Myles | Raphael, Sir Herbert H. |
| Booth, Frederick Handel | Holmes, Daniel Thomas | Rea, Rt. Hon. Russell (South Shields) |
| Bowerman, C. W. | Horne, C. Silvester (Ipswich) | Rea, Walter Russell (Scarborough) |
| Brady, P. J. | Howard, Hon. Geoffrey | Reddy, Michael |
| Bryce, J. Annan | Hughes, S. L. | Richardson, Albion (Peckham) |
| Buckmaster, Stanley O. | Jones, Edgar (Merthyr Tydvil) | Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln) |
| Burns, Rt. Hon. John | Jones, William (Carnarvonshire) | Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside) |
| Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas | Jowett, F. W. | Robinson, Sidney |
| Buxton, Noel (Norfolk, N.) | Joyce, Michael | Roche, Augustine (Louth) |
| Byles, Sir William pollard | Keating, M. | Rowlands, James |
| Carr-Gomm, H. W. | Kilbride, Denis | Rowntree, Arnold |
| Cawley, Harold T. (Heywood) | King, J. (Somerset, N.) | Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter |
| Chancellor, H. G. | Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade) | Russell, Rt. Hon. Thomas W. |
| Clancy, John Joseph | Lawson, Sir W. (Cumb'rld, Cockerm'th) | Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland) |
| Clough, William | Leach, Charles | Sheehy, David |
| Collins, Stephen (Lambeth) | Levy, Sir Maurice | Shortt, Edward |
| Compton-Rickett, Rt. Hon. Sir J. | Lewis, John Herbert | Smith, Albert (Lancs., Clitheroe) |
| Cotton, William Francis | Lundon, T. | Snowden, P. |
| Cowan, W. H. | Lyell, Charles Henry | Stanley, Albert (Staffs, N. W.) |
| Crumley, Patrick | McGhee, Richard | Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe) |
| Davies, David (Montgomery Co.) | MacNeill, John G. S. (Donegal, South) | Thomas, J. H. (Derby) |
| Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.) | Macpherson, James Ian | Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton) |
| Delany, William | MacVeagh, Jeremiah | Trevelyan, Charles Philips |
| Denman, Hon. R. D. | M'Callum, John M. | Ure, Rt. Hon. Alexander |
| Devlin, Joseph | M'Laren, Hon. F. W. S. (Lincs., Spalding) | Verney, Sir Harry |
| Dillon, John | M Micking, Major Gilbert | Walsh, Stephen (Lancs., Ince) |
| Donelan, Captain A. | Markham, Sir Arthur Basil | Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent) |
| Doris, W. | Masterman, C. F. G. | Wardle, George J. |
| Duffy, William J. | Meagher, Michael | Watt, Henry A. |
| Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness) | Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.) | Webb, H. |
| Edwards, Sir Francis (Radnor) | Menzies, Sir Walter | White, Sir Luke (York, E. R.) |
| Edwards, John Hugh (Glamorgan, Mid) | Molloy, M. | White, Patrick (Meath, North) |
| Ferens, Rt. Hon. Thomas Robinson | Molteno, Percy Alport | Whitehouse, John Howard |
| Ffrench, Peter | Mooney, J. J. | Whittaker, Rt. Hon. Sir Thomas P. |
| Flavin, Michael Joseph | Morton, Alpheus Cleophas | Wilkie, Alexander |
| Furness, Stephen W. | Munro, R. | Williams, J. (Glamorgan) |
| Gill, A. H. | Nannetti, Joseph P. | Williams, Llewelyn (Carmarthen) |
| Gladstone, W. G. C. | Neilson, Francis | Williams, P. (Middlesbrough): |
| Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford | Nolan, Joseph | Wilson, Hon. G. G. (Hull, W.) |
| Goldstone, Frank | Nuttall, H. | Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton) |
| Greenwood, Hamar (Sunderland) | O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) | |
| Griffith, Ellis Jones | O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool) | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr. Illingworth and Mr. Gulland. |
| Guest, Hon. Frederick E. (Dorset, E.) | O'Donnell, Thomas | |
| Gwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway) | O'Dowd, John |
§ Mr. C. BATHURSTI beg to move, the reduction of Item J (Miscellaneous Small Stores for Public Departments) by £5,000.
When we were discussing just now, I put a question to the hon. Member the Secretary to the Treasury asking him to give the Committee some details of the very considerable increase. I pointed out that the increase amounted to 9 per cent., which is the largest proportional increase with the exception of the following item, due to the exigencies of the Autumn Session. On the original Estimate for these Miscellaneous Small Stores, I find an increase for the current year as compared with the previous financial year of £11,000; that is to say, in respect of small items such as, I presume, sealing wax, or pens, or red tape, we have got not only the 1086 enormous sum now of over £80,000, but we had an increase last year on the previous year of 18 per cent., and an increase again at the end of this financial year of another 9 per cent. I think it is due to the Committee that we should have some better explanation than the somewhat vague one which the hon. Gentleman previously gave to the Committee on the subject.
§ Mr. MASTERMANI would remind the hon. Gentleman that there are other items besides sealing wax and red tape provided for in this Vote. A large number of these so-called small stores represent the purchase of things of very considerable value, such as typewriting machines, calculating machines, duplicating machines, the numbering of stamps, and such like 1087 apparatus, which are provided through the Stationery Office. I have to repeat my defence, which I made on a former Supplementary Estimate, that the main bulk of the expenditure is due to two main causes, first, to the equipment of the four Insurance Commissions for the four parts of the United Kingdom, for which we had to practically supply a new Department with all that is necessary; and, secondly, in the taking over of the telephones by the Post Office a large amount of supplies had to be provided.
§ I understand that the main part of the remaining amount of the Estimate is due to general increases in the requirements of the Admiralty, due, I suppose, to the extension which has taken place in recent years. I hope that with that explanation the hon. Gentleman will see his way not to press the Motion for a reduction.
§ Question put, "That Item J (Miscellaneous Small Stores for Public Departments) be reduced by £5,000."
§ The Committee divided: Ayes, 72; Noes, 159.
1089| Division No. 11.] | AYES. | [9.0 p.m. |
| Agg-Gardner, James Tynte | Denniss, E. R. B. | Newton, Harry Kottingham |
| Aitken, Sir William Max | Duke, Henry Edward | Orde-Powlett, Hon. W. G. A. |
| Archer-Shee, Major Martin | Fell, Arthur | Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington) |
| Ashley, Wilfrid W. | Fetherstonhaugh, Godfrey | Peto, Basil Edward |
| Bagot, Lieut.-Colonel J. | Flannery, S. J. Fortescue | Pollock, Ernest Murray |
| Balcarres, Lord | Gardner, Ernest | Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel |
| Baldwin, Stanley | Gastrell, Major W. H. | Rawson, Col. Richard H. |
| Banbury, Sir Frederick George | Goldman, C. S. | Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall) |
| Barnston, Harry | Gordon, John (Londonderry, South) | Rutherford, Watson (L'pool., W. Derby) |
| Beckett, Hon. Gervase | Gordon, Hon. John Edward (Brighton) | Salter, Arthur Clavell |
| Benn, Arthur Shirley (Plymouth) | Gretton, John | Sanders, Robert A. |
| Bennett-Goldney, Francis | Henderson, Major H. (Berks, Abingdon) | Sanderson, Lancelot |
| Bigland, Alfred | Hills, John Walter (Durham) | Sandys, G. J. (Somerset, Wells) |
| Bird, A. | Hohler, G. F. | Spear, Sir John Ward |
| Boyle, W. Lewis (Norfolk, Mid) | Hope, Harry (Bute) | Stanley, Hon. G. F. (Preston) |
| Boyton, J. | Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield) | Stewart, Gershom |
| Bridgeman, William Clive | Ingleby, Holcombe | Sykes, Mark (Hull, Central) |
| Burn, Col. C. R. | Locker-Lampson, G. (Salisbury) | Thomson, W. Mitchell- (Down, N.) |
| Butcher, J. G. | Locker-Lampson, O. (Ramsey) | Thynne, Lord Alexander |
| Campbell, Capt. Duncan F. (Ayr, N.) | Lyttelton, Hon. J. C. (Droitwich) | Valentia, Viscount |
| Castlereagh, Viscount | McNeill, Ronald (Kent, St. Augustine) | Wood, John (Stalybridge) |
| Cave, George | Magnus, Sir Philip | Yate, Col. C. E. |
| Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) | Malcolm, Ian | |
| Cooper, Richard Ashmole | Morrison-Bell, Capt. E. F. (Ashburton) | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr. C. Bathurst and Major Morrison-Bell. |
| Craig, Captain James (Down, E.) | Neville, Reginald J. N. | |
| NOES. | ||
| Abraham, William (Dublin Harbour) | Delany, William | Hogge, James Myles |
| Addison, Dr. Christopher | Denman, Hon. Richard Douglas | Holmes, Daniel Thomas |
| Adkins, Sir W. Ryland D. | Devlin, Joseph | Howard, Hon. Geoffrey |
| Agnew, Sir George William | Dillon, John | Hughes, S. L. |
| Alden, Percy | Donelan, Captain A. | Illingworth, Percy H. |
| Baker, Joseph Allen (Finsbury, E.) | Doris, William | Jones, Edgar (Merthyr Tydvil) |
| Balfour, Sir Robert (Lanark) | Duffy, William J. | Jowett, Frederick William |
| Beck, Arthur Cecil | Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness) | Joyce, Michael |
| Benn, W. T. (T. H'mts., St. George) | Edwards, Sir Francis (Radnor) | Keating, Matthew |
| Bethell, Sir John Henry | Edwards, John Hugh (Glamorgan, Mid) | Kilbride, Denis |
| Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine | Ffrench, Peter | King, J. (Somerset, N.) |
| Black, Arthur W. | Flavin, Michael Joseph | Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade) |
| Booth, Frederick Handel | Furness, Stephen W. | Lawson, Sir W. (Cumb'rld, Cockerm'th) |
| Bowerman, Charles W. | Gill, Alfred Henry | Leach, Charles |
| Brady, P. J. | Gladstone, W. G. C. | Levy, Sir Maurice |
| Bryce, J. Annan | Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford | Lewis, John Herbert |
| Buckmaster, Stanley O. | Goldstone, Frank | Lundon, Thomas |
| Burns, Rt. Hon. John | Greenwood, Hamar (Sunderland) | Lyell, Chas. Henry |
| Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas | Griffith, Ellis J. | MacGhee, Richard |
| Buxton, Noel (Norfolk, N.) | Gulland, John W. | MacNeill, John G. S. (Donegal, South) |
| Byles, Sir William Pollard | Gwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway) | Macpherson, James Ian |
| Carr-Gomm, H. W. | Hackett, J. | MacVeagh, Jeremiah |
| Cawley, Harold T. (Heywood) | Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose) | M'Callum, John M. |
| Chancellor, H. G. | Harmsworth, Cecil (Luton, Beds.) | M'Laren, Hon. F. W. S. (Lincs., Spalding) |
| Clancy, John Joseph | Harmsworth, R. L. (Caithness-shire) | M'Micking, Major Gilbert |
| Clough, William | Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N. E.) | Markham, Sir Arthur Basil |
| Collins, Stephen (Lambeth) | Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth) | Masterman, C. F. G. |
| Cotton, William Francis | Hayden, John Patrick | Meagher, Michael |
| Cowan, William Henry | Hayward, Evan | Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.) |
| Crumley, Patrick | Herbert, Col. Sir Ivor (Mon., S.) | Menzies, Sir Walter |
| Davies, David (Montgomery Co.) | Hinds, John | Molloy, M. |
| Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.) | Hodge, John | Molteno, Percy Alport |
| Mooney, John J. | Raphael, Sir Herbert Henry | Trevelyan, Charles Philips |
| Morton, Alpheus Cleophas | Rea, Rt. Hon. Russell (South Shields) | Ure, Rt. Hon. Alexander |
| Munro, R. | Rea, Walter Russell (Scarborough) | Verney, Sir Harry |
| Nannetti, Joseph P. | Reddy, Michael | Walsh, Stephen (Lancs., Ince) |
| Neilson, Francis | Richardson, Albion (Peckham) | Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent) |
| Nolan, Joseph | Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln) | Wardle, George J. |
| Nuttall, Harry | Robertson, John M. (Tyneside) | Watt, Henry A. |
| O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) | Robinson, Sidney | Webb, H. |
| O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool) | Roche, Augustine (Louth) | White, J. Dundas (Glas., Tradeston) |
| O'Donnell, Thomas | Rowlands, James | White, Sir Luke (Yorks, E. R.) |
| O'Dowd, John | Rowntree, Arnold | White, Patrick (Meath, North) |
| O'Malley, William | Russell, Rt. Hon. Thomas W. | Whitehouse, John Howard |
| O'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, S.) | Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland) | Whittaker, Rt. Hon. Sir Thomas P. |
| O'Shaughnessy, P. J. | Scanlan, Thomas | Wilkie, Alexander |
| O'Sullivan, Timothy | Sheehy, David | Williams, John (Glamorgan) |
| Parker, James (Halifax) | Shortt, Edward | Williams, Llewelyn (Carmarthen) |
| Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek) | Smith, Albert (Lancs., Clitheroe) | Williams, P. (Middlesbrough) |
| Phillips, John (Longford, S.) | Snowden, Philip | Wilson, Hon. G. G. (Hull, W.) |
| Pointer, Joseph | Stanley, Albert (Staffs., N. W.) | Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton) |
| Power, Patrick Joseph | Taylor, T. C. (Radcliffe) | |
| Pringle, William M. R. | Thomas, J. H. (Derby | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr. W. Jones and Mr. Guest. |
| Radford, G. H. | Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton) |
§ Mr. MITCHELL-THOMSONI beg to move, that Item N (Parliamentary Debates and Records) be reduced by £100.
I move this reduction, and I hope, and in fact I believe, the hon. Gentleman will be able to give me a satisfactory explanation, so that it may not be necessary to press the matter to a Division. I desire to ask a question which is largely on a matter of proportional arithmetic. The last Session, so far as I recollect, began about the 7th or 8th of February, and lasted until 19th August, which is, roughly speaking, about six months. The Autumn Session, on which the blame for this increased Vote is thrown, lasted from 15th October to 19th December, a period of two months. Six months were apparently estimated to cost £7,500, or at the rate of £1,250 per month. At the same ratio the charge for the two extra months would be £2,500, whereas the additional sum asked for is £4,500. I hope the hon. Gentleman will tell us what are the reasons for this extra £2,000. I have no doubt they are very good reasons, but we have not yet heard them. After all, the reporting of the Parliamentary Debates is a matter which lends itself more or less to an average calculation. Some nights are much longer than others, to the great sorrow of all of us, but on an average it works out to some sort of figure which could be fairly easily calculated in advance. The suggestion I wish to make is one that I hope the hon. Member will bring to the notice of the Committee appointed on Friday last to advise Mr. Speaker with regard to the reporting of these Debates.
All who take an interest in the work of the House will have felt the difficulty to which I wish to refer. Very often in the course of a debate references are 1090 made to speeches made by various Members of the Front Bench on the one side or the other during the preceding Session, and one wants to turn up a particular speech in a hurry. At present it is very difficult indeed to do so, because there is no index to the Parliamentary Debates of last Session. Therefore, if you want to refer to a speech made by the Prime Minister on the Second Reading of the Parliament Bill, you have to start at a date that you think is approximately correct, and turn up the index to that volume. If you are wrong you must go to the preceding or the succeeding volume. This you have to do while the reference is urgently wanted. Is it beyond the bounds of possibility, when we are voting increased sums of money for the better reporting of the Parliamentary Debates, to produce an index of the previous Session some time before the present moment? I do not know whether that is a question for which this item ought to have been increased. Perhaps if more money had been voted it would have been possible to have done what I suggest. It cannot be a matter of very great difficulty, because the indices for the separate volumes are already complete. It is only a matter of collating them and forming them into one general index. I make this suggestion in perfectly good faith, believing that it will conduce to the convenience of Members in all parts of the House, and I hope it will receive a reciprocal echo from the hon. Gentleman when he replies.
§ Mr. MASTERMANAs to the suggestion made by the hon. Member, I should not be in order in discussing it on a Supplementary Estimate, but I will take note of it and see if it is possible to deal with it in any way.
§ Mr. MITCHELL-THOMSONWill the hon. Gentleman bring it to the notice of the Committee appointed to advise Mr. Speaker in this matter?
§ Mr. MASTERMANI will see if anything can be done. I am not sure for the moment under whose jurisdiction such a change would be. As to the necesity for the Supplementary Estimate, it is largely a mechanical matter, depending not on the Treasury at all, but on the number of days and nights that Parliament chooses to sit in the year. The payment for the reporting staff is not included in this Estimate at all. The whole of this payment is for printing, paper, indexing, and otherwise preparing and binding the Parliamentary records. The original Estimate made in 1907, perhaps under somewhat optimistic conditions, was for an average Parliamentary year of 120 days, and on that basis the Estimates have been prepared since. Whether it may be necessary to revise that Estimate another year, we shall have to consider. To that 120 days a certain number of days have had to be added, and also a certain number of nights. Therefore, automatically, the amount of this Vote has gone up. I hope that that explanation will be satisfactory to the Committee.
§ Viscount CASTLEREAGHThe hon. Member, whom we all congratulate on having received promotion for his undoubted ability, has shown by the speech he has just made that he is not very well acquainted with the subject with which he has to deal to-night. I admit that it is very difficult for him, having been in office only a fortnight, to answer the very pertinent questions that have been raised. But what the hon. Gentleman does not seem to realise is that there is an increase of £4,500, or 60 per cent., on the original Estimate. With the greatest possible deference and respect, I do not think it meets the case to say that the average was fixed in 1907. I believe we sat for a great deal more than 120 days in that year, and in any case we are now in 1912. It is a very poor defence. I am very unwilling to go into details, because I recognise the difficulties under which the hon. Gentleman is labouring. But £4,500 must have been called for to defray some definite costs, and we have not been told under what headings that cost has been incurred—whether it is for books, or for paper, or anything else. When we remember that £4,500 would pay for eleven Members of 1092 this House, there ought to be something to show for it. Instead of being told that it is an automatic increase, we ought to know the exact items on which it has been incurred. Failing a satisfactory answer, I hope my hon. Friend will go to a Division as a protest against undue extravagance for which no reason has been given. It may be said that these Supplementary Estimates are a matter of course, and that we are supposed to sit here and listen to evasive answers from the Treasury Bench. Since hon. Members opposite so often talk of economy it is surely their duty to help us in these matters, and not to consent to vote large sums of money without a word of explanation.
§ Sir J. SPEARIn supporting the Amendment for reduction, I submit that there is a great deal of unnecessary duplication of records, entailing a very serious waste of public money. Every morning we get a Blue Book giving a record of the proceedings of the previous day, which record is very valuable. In addition to that, we get a parcel of papers, which most of us throw at once into the waste-paper basket—[Several HON. MEMBERS: "Oh!"]—which is a duplicate of the Blue Book. Surely there is no necessity for the two publications. On this Vote we have an increase of £47,000, which is a serious sum, after all, and tells of radical extravagance. I say to hon. Members opposite that it is our duty to see, if we can, that this duplication of accounts ceases in the public interest, and I cordially support the Motion for the reduction.
§ Mr. SANDERSONThe hon. Member opposite explained to us that the reason for this increase is that the amount was fixed in 1907 at £7,500, and that it has gone up by no less than £4,500 last year in consequence of the extra number of days on which we sat. I would like to draw the attention of the Committee to these facts: that in 1910–11 the total amount of expenditure was £7,500; in 1911–12 the total amount we are asked to spend is no less than £12,000, a rise of £4,500. Do hon. Members think that this expenditure is caused solely by the fact that we sat a few more days in 1911 than we did in 1910? According to my recollection there was not very much difference between the sittings of the two Sessions. We had an Autumn Session in 1910 just the same as in 1911, though it was not quite so long. It seems to me that the hon. Gentleman has not 1093 given us any explanation for such an enormous rise by merely saying that the sittings last year were longer than 1910. I associate myself with the Noble Lord, and unless we get a further explanation of this very extraordinary rise, I shall vote against it if my hon. Friend goes to a division.
§ Sir F. BANBURYThe hon. Gentleman opposite said earlier that a fixed sum was settled some few years ago based upon a normal length of a Session of 120 days. He has again repeated that argument. Has he forgotten that on the very first page of these Supplementary Estimates there occurs the item of an increase of pay to the official reporting staff of £2 per day per man for each sitting of the House beyond 150 days? On that first item the hon. Gentleman explained that the normal sittings of the House lasted 150 days. He said that period had been fixed by a Commission over which Mr. Speaker presides. How is it, then, that on one Vote we are told the normal Session is 150 days, and that on the next Vote we are told that the normal Session of the House is 120 days, and that this Estimate is based not upon 150, but 120 days? It is evident that both of these statements cannot be correct. There must be some mistake somewhere. Someone has bungled. Is that the proper way to conduct the business of what was once the greatest Assembly in the world? I am surprised at the conspiracy of silence of hon. Gentlemen opposite. Until the present time we have not been honoured with the presence of hon. Members opposite. They have been content to leave the spending of the nation's money in the hands of the Ministers. Now, however, that the hour is getting later the opposite Benches are gradually filling up, yet there is not a single hon. Member who dare get up and explain and support the gross extravagance of His Majesty's Ministers. There is the hon. Gentleman the Member for Salford (Sir William Byles)—he is a great economist. He is not willing to rise in his place and attack the expenditure. He has listened to this Debate, he is competent to make a speech—
§ The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN (Mr. Maclean)The hon. Baronet's observations are not strictly relevant to this Amendment.
§ Sir F. BANBURYI am simply endeavouring to comment upon the extraordinary effacement of hon. Members 1094 opposite, but I will not persevere. I have said quite enough. The explanation of the hon. Gentleman is most unsatisfactory. It is, in fact, no explanation at all. He has given no reason whatever why we should vote this sum, which is an increase of 60 per cent., and, under these circumstances, and in view of the fact that nobody opposite dare support it, I shall vote against it.
§ Mr. POLLOCKThe cost works out at about £63 a day. We reassembled last year on 24th October, and Parliament rose on the 15th December. If you take the number of extra Parliamentary days that are possible you cannot make it fifty. Even if it had been fifty, the amount is not as large as £63 per day, and for a normal Session of 150 days it would be less. If you take it at that, you cannot make this figure more than £3,000, and perhaps not so much. When the Financial Secretary gives us this information he is, I suppose, under a serious handicap owing to the fact that he has not been long in his present office. I urge him to look into this matter, because his information is not so complete as no doubt he would like it to be. If the figure really is £3,000 we ought to know what this £1,500 from some other source is for. Reckoning on 150 days, I do not think it is possible to make the figure more than £3,000, and therefore we ought to have fuller information.
Major MORRISON - BELLMay I qualify the suggestion that was made in the course of his speech by the hon. Member who spoke of the great duplication of Parliamentary Papers, that we ought to put them into the waste-paper basket. Hon. Members opposite repudiated that, and the hon. Member for Salford at once said he did not put his Papers into the waste-paper basket. I do not think that we on this side put all our Papers into the waste-paper basket, much as we are overwhelmed sometimes with them. I think it is only right and fair that we on this side should voice the opinion that we are as keen on Parliamentary matters as hon. Gentlemen opposite. We ought to have some more information about this increased Vote from the hon. Gentleman the Financial Secretary, because, if I may say so, he has been very well treated by hon. Members on this side. They have accepted his excuses for these Estimates very easily. The last Estimate, he said, was for typewriting, the next is because we sat for more than 120 days. I think 1095 the Committee is entitled to some more information owing to the very large amounts already passed sub silentio, and therefore I desire to reinforce the request made for some more information upon this subject.
§ Mr. MASTERMANI am obliged to the hon. Gentleman for the remarks made with reference to myself. This is purely an automatic increase of so much per day as distinct from the other. The original Estimate was for 120 days. Last year we sat for something like 170 days, and a good many nights as well. Not only had we an Autumn Session, but we had very short holidays and an almost unprecedented record of sittings, except upon the Budget. As we go on sitting, the cost for printing automatically goes up. None of the expenses for Parliamentary Papers referred to by hon. Gentlemen opposite come into this Vote at all. It is for the OFFICIAL REPORT, and the amount is necessarily limited or increased by the number of Parliamentary days of the Session.
§ Mr. MITCHELL-THOMSONI am much obliged to the hon. Gentleman for the reception given to my suggestion with regard to the Index. It ought not to pass the resources of civilisation to have that done. It is two months now since the end of the last Session, in which the Index might have been produced. I hope if the hon. Gentleman is in the same position and occupies his present office next year we shall not have to make the same suggestion again. I do not want to press the hon. Gentleman for details, but I do think that our sense of duty compels us to seek for more information. He said it is purely a question of arithmetic. I do not care by what kind of arithmetic it is tested, the plain fact is that the figures given by the hon. Gentleman in his explanation and the figures of the Vote will not balance. He says the first part was based on a Session of 120 days. That was in 1907. No one expected that there was going to be such a spasm of activity for legislation in the Liberal party as has taken place since. He says the Session was prolonged to 170 days. That is an extra fifty. If 120 days is to be taken as costing £7,500, or, roughly, £62 10s. a day, then the expenditure upon the extra fifty days and nights is not £62 10s., but £90. Were there no late sittings in July or in the early part of the Session?
§ Mr. MASTERMANThey cost exactly the same as this. There are nights to be added, including all-night sittings, and also the amount spent, at the request of hon. Members opposite, upon the unemployment portion of the Insurance Act.
§ Mr. MITCHELL-THOMSONNow the hon. Gentleman has given us an explanation, which really does appear to explain to some extent the increase, but I am sure he would not wish the Committee to believe that the cost of the proceedings of the Committee upstairs will account for the extra cost involved in this Vote. I sat on the Committee upstairs, but I do not remember that we had more than seven or eight sittings, and I am quite certain the Reports of the Debates upstairs would fill but a small part of the volume. His explanation goes some way, but it does not go far enough to explain this increase, and under the circumstances I feel compelled to divide. I am sorry to press the hon. Gentleman so hard, but, after all, his position on the Treasury Bench is as the representative of the Government.
§ Mr. HOHLERI asked the hon. Gentleman the Financial Secretary, did he not obtain that information as to the cost of reporting the Debate in Committee upstairs at the last moment, from somebody sitting at the back of this House, and has he not been offering explanations up to that wholly unfounded in fact? I ask him whether he will give reasonable and proper information founded on fact as to how this increase really occurred? We are now told that the increase is due to the printing of the Unemployment Debate upstairs. [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] Perhaps the hon. Gentleman will explain what it was he said. I understood it was in reference to what happened upstairs. Perhaps some Gentleman on the Labour Benches will give us an explanation. Was the hon. Gentleman's explanation of the increase the reporting of the Committee upstairs? Is there any further explanation to be given to the House in regard to this most unreasonable increase?
§ Mr. E. GRETTONIs there any charge in this item connected with the Insurance Act? I think there was an additional copy of the Act printed for the convenience of hon. Members opposite.
§ Mr. MASTERMANThis is entirely for the OFFICIAL REPORT.
§ Mr. GRETTONWill the hon. Member tell me where the cost relating to the Insurance Act is to be found in these Estimates?
§ Mr. MASTERMANI think it comes in on a Vote we have already passed.
§ Question put, "That Item N (Parliamentary Debates and Records) be reduced by £100."
§ The Committee divided: Ayes, 78; Noes, 178.
1099| Division No. 12.] | AYES. | [9.40 p.m. |
| Aitken, Sir William Max | Duke, Henry Edward | Neville, Reginald J. N. |
| Archer-Shee, Major M. | Fell, Arthur | Newton, Harry Kottingham |
| Ashley, W. W. | Fetherstonhaugh, Godfrey | Orde-Powlett, Hon. W. G. A. |
| Bagot, Lieut.-Colonel J. | Flannery, Sir J. Fortescue | Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington) |
| Balcarres, Lord | Foster, Philip Staveley | Pole-Carew, Sir R. |
| Baldwin, Stanley | Gastrell, Major W. Houghton | Pollock, Ernest Murray |
| Banbury, Sir Frederick George | Goldman, C. S. | Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel |
| Banner, John S. Harmood- | Gordon, John (Londonderry, South) | Rawson, Col. Richard H. |
| Barnston, H. | Gordon, Hon. John Edward (Brighton) | Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall) |
| Bathurst, C. (Wilts, Wilton) | Gretton, John | Rutherford, Watson (L'pool, W. Derby) |
| Beckett, Hon. Gervase | Gwynne, R. S. (Sussex, Eastbourne) | Salter, Arthur Clavell |
| Benn, Arthur Shirley (Plymouth) | Hamilton, Marquess of (Londonderry) | Sanders, Robert Arthur |
| Bennett-Goldney, Francis | Henderson, Major H. (Berks, Abingdon) | Sanderson, Lancelot |
| Bentinck, Lord H. Cavendish- | Hills, John Waller | Sandys, G. J. (Somerset, Wells) |
| Bigland, Alfred | Hohler, G. F. | Spear, Sir John Ward |
| Bird, A. | Hope, Harry (Bute) | Stanley, Hon. G. F. (Preston) |
| Boyle, W. L. (Norfolk, Mid) | Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield) | Stewart, Gershom |
| Boyton, James | Ingleby, Holcombe | Sykes, Mark (Hull, Central) |
| Burn, Colonel C. R. | Law, Rt. Hon. A. Bonar (Bootle) | Thynne, Lord A. |
| Campbell, Capt. Duncan F. (Ayr, N.) | Lloyd, George Ambrose | Valentia, Viscount |
| Castlereagh, Viscount | Locker-Lampson, G. (Salisbury) | Wood, John (Stalybridge) |
| Cave, George | Locker-Lampson, O. (Ramsey) | Yate, Colonel C. E. |
| Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) | Lyttelton, Hon. J. C. (Droitwich) | |
| Cecil, Lord Hugh (Oxford University) | McNeill, Ronald (Kent, St. Augustine) | |
| Cooper, Richard Ashmole | Magnus, Sir Philip | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Major Morrison-Bell and Mr. Mitchell-Thomson. |
| Craig, Captain James (Down, E.) | Malcolm, Ian | |
| Craik, Sir Henry | Mills, Hon. Charles Thomas | |
| Dickson, Rt. Hon. C. Scott- | Morrison-Bell, Capt. E. F. (Ashburton) | |
| NOES. | ||
| Abraham, William (Dublin Harbour) | Edwards, Sir Francis (Radnor) | Lambert, Rt. Hon. G. (Devon, S. Molton) |
| Agnew, Sir George William | Edwards, John Hugh (Glamorgan, Mid) | Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade) |
| Alden, Percy | Esmonde, Dr. John (Tipperary, N.) | Lawson, Sir W. (Cumb'rid, Cockerm'th) |
| Baker, Joseph Allen (Finsbury, E.) | Ferens, Rt. Hon. Thomas Robinson | Leach, Charles |
| Balfour, Sir Robert (Lanark) | Ffrench, Peter | Levy, Sir Maurice |
| Beck, Arthur Cecil | Flavin, Michael Joseph | Lewis, John Herbert |
| Benn, W. W. (Tower Hamlets, St. Geo.) | Furness, Stephen | Lundon, T. |
| Bethell, Sir John Henry | Gill, A. H. | Lyell, Charles Henry |
| Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine | Gladstone, W. G. C. | Lynch, A. A. |
| Black, Arthur W. | Glanville, H. J. | McGhee, Richard |
| Booth, Frederick Handel | Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford | MacNeill, John G. S. (Donegal, South) |
| Bowerman, C. W. | Goldstone, Frank | Macpherson, James Ian |
| Brady, P. J. | Greenwood, Hamar (Sunderland) | MacVeagh, Jeremiah |
| Bryce, J. Annan | Griffith, Ellis J. | M'Callum, John M. |
| Buckmaster, Stanley O. | Guest, Hon. Major C. H. C. (Pembroke) | McKenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald |
| Burns, Rt. Hon. John | Guest, Hon. Frederick E. (Dorset, E.) | M'Laren, Hon. F. S. W. (Lincs., Spalding) |
| Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas | Gulland, John William | M'Laren, Walter S. B. (Ches., Crewe) |
| Buxton, Noel (Norfolk) | Gwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway) | M'Micking, Major Gilbert |
| Byles, Sir William Pollard | Hackett, J. | Martin, J. |
| Carr-Gomm, M. W. | Hancock, John George | Masterman, C. F. G. |
| Cawley, Harold T. (Heywood) | Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose) | Meagher, Michael |
| Chancellor, H. G. | Harmsworth, Cecil (Luton, Beds.) | Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.) |
| Chapple, Dr. William Allen | Harmsworth, R. L. (Caithness-shire) | Menzies, Sir Walter |
| Clancy, John Joseph | Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, W.) | Molloy, Michael |
| Clough, William | Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N. E.) | Molteno, Percy Alport |
| Collins, Stephen (Lambeth) | Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth) | Mooney, John J. |
| Cotton, William Francis | Hayden, John Patrick | Morton, Alpheus Cleophas |
| Cowan, W. H. | Henry, Sir Charles S. | Munro, R. |
| Crumley, Patrick | Hinds, John | Nannetti, Joseph P. |
| Davies, David (Montgomery Co.) | Hodge, John | Neilson, Francis |
| Davies, Timothy (Lincs., Louth) | Hogge, James Myles | Nolan, Joseph |
| Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.) | Holmes, Daniel Thomas | Nuttall, Harry |
| Delany, William | Holt, Richard Durning | O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) |
| Denman, Hon. R. D. | Hughes, Spencer Leigh | O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.) |
| Devlin, Joseph | Illingworth, Percy H. | O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool) |
| Dillon, John | Johnson, W. | O'Donnell, Thomas |
| Donelan, Captain A. | Jones, Edgar (Merthyr Tydvil) | O'Dowd, John |
| Doris, William | Joyce, Michael | O'Malley, William |
| Duffy, William J. | Keating, Matthew | O'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, S.) |
| Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness) | Kilbride, Denis | O'Shaughnessy, P. J. |
| Edwards, Clement (Glamorgan, E.) | King, J. (Somerset, N.) | O'Sullivan, Timothy |
| Parker, James (Halifax) | Russell, Rt. Hon. Thomas W. | Warner, Sir Thomas Courtenay |
| Phillips, John (Longford, S.) | Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland) | Watt, Henry Anderson |
| Pointer, Joseph | Scanlan, Thomas | Webb, H. |
| Power, Patrick Joseph | Scott, A. MacCallum (Glas., Bridgeton) | White, James Dundas (Glasgow) |
| Priestley, Sir Arthur (Grantham) | Sheehy, David | White, Sir Luke (Yorks, E. R.) |
| Pringle, William M. R. | Shortt, E. | White, Patrick (Meath, North) |
| Radford, G. H. | Smith, Albert (Lancs., Clitheroe) | Whitehouse, John Howard |
| Raphael, Sir Herbert H. | Snowden, Philip | Whittaker, Rt. Hon. Sir Thomas P. |
| Rea, Rt. Hon. Russell (South Shields) | Stanley, Albert (Staffs, N. W.) | Wilkie, Alexander |
| Rea, Walter Russell (Scarborough) | Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe) | Williams, J. (Glamorgan) |
| Reddy, M. | Tennant, Harold John | Williams, Llewelyn (Carmarthen) |
| Richardson, Albion (Peckham) | Thomas, James Henry (Derby) | Williams, Penry (Middlesbrough) |
| Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln) | Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton) | Wilson, Hon. G. G. (Hull, W.) |
| Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside) | Trevelyan, Charles Philips | Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton) |
| Robinson, Sidney | Ure, Rt. Hon. Alexander | Yoxall, Sir James Henry |
| Roch, Walter F. (Pembroke) | Verney, Sir Harry | |
| Roche, Augustine (Louth) | Walsh, Stephen (Lancs., Ince) | |
| Rowlands, James | Walton, Sir Joseph | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr. William Jones and Mr. Howard. |
| Rowntree, Arnold | Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent) | |
| Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter | Wardle, George J. |
§ Original question again proposed.
§ Mr. FELLThere are many hon. Members present who did not hear the explanation which has been given of these various items, and, consequently, they are not aware of the fact that this £47,000 includes payments on behalf of those posters of such an objectionable nature which were
§ issued from the Treasury, and which we object to entirely. On that ground I beg to move a reduction of this Vote by £100.
§ Question put, "That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding £46,900 be granted for the said Service."
§ The Committee divided: Ayes 81; Noes, 181.
1101| Division No. 13.] | AYES. | [9.50 p.m. |
| Aitken, Sir William Max | Fetherstonhaugh, Godfrey | Mills, Hon. Charles Thomas |
| Archer-Shee, Major M. | Flannery, Sir J. Fortescus | Morrison-Bell, Capt. E. F. (Ashburton) |
| Ashley, W. W. | Foster, Philip Staveley | Neville, Reginald J. N. |
| Bagot, Lieut.-Colonel J. | Gastrell, Major W. Houghton | Newton, Harry Kottingham |
| Balcarres, Lord | Goldman, C. S. | Orde-Powlett, Hon. W. G. A. |
| Baldwin, Stanley | Gordon, John (Londonderry, South) | Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington) |
| Banbury, Sir Frederick George | Gordon, Hon. John Edward (Brighton) | Pole-Carew, Sir R. |
| Banner, John S. Harmood- | Gretton, John | Pollock, Ernest Murray |
| Barnston, H. | Gwynne, R. S. (Sussex, Eastbourne) | Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel |
| Bathurst, C. (Wilts, Wilton) | Hamilton, Marquess of (Londonderry) | Rawson, Col. R. H. |
| Beckett, Hon. Gervase | Henderson, Major H. (Berks, Abingdon) | Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall) |
| Bennett-Goldney, Francis | Hills, John Waller | Rutherford, Watson (L'pool, W. Derby) |
| Bentinck, Lord H. Cavendish- | Hohler, G. F. | Salter, Arthur Clavell |
| Bigland, Alfred | Hope, Harry (Bute) | Sanders, Robert A. |
| Bird, A. | Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield) | Sanderson, Lancelot |
| Boyle, W. L. (Norfolk, Mid) | Ingleby, Holcombe | Sandys, G. J. (Somerset, Wells) |
| Boyton, J. | Law, Rt. Hon. A. Bonar (Bootle) | Spear, Sir John Ward |
| Burn, Colonel C. R. | Lloyd, G. A. | Stanley, Hon. G. F. (Preston) |
| Campbell, Capt. Duncan F. (Ayr, N.) | Locker-Lampson, G. (Salisbury) | Stewart, Gershom |
| Castlereagh, Viscount | Locker-Lampson, O. (Ramsey) | Sykes, Mark (Hull, Central) |
| Cave, George | Long, Rt. Hon. Walter | Thomson, W. Mitchell- (Down, N.) |
| Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) | Lonsdale, Sir John Brownlee | Thynne, Lord A. |
| Cecil, Lord Hugh (Oxford University) | Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. A. (Hanover Sq.) | Valentia, Viscount |
| Cooper, Richard Ashmole | Lyttelton, Hon. J. C. (Droitwich) | Wood, John (Stalybridge) |
| Craig, Captain James (Down, E.) | M'Calmont, Colonel James | Yate, Colonel C. E. |
| Craik, Sir Henry | McNeill, Ronald (Kent, St. Augustine) | |
| Dickson, Rt. Hon. C. Scott- | Magnus, Sir Philip | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr. Fell and Major Morrison-Bell. |
| Duke, Henry Edward | Malcolm, Ian | |
| NOES. | ||
| Abraham, William (Dublin Harbour) | Burns, Rt. Hon. John | Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.) |
| Agnew, Sir George William | Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas | Delany, William |
| Alden, Percy | Buxton, Noel (Norfolk) | Denman, Hon. Richard Douglas |
| Baker, Joseph A. (Finsbury, E.) | Byles, Sir William Pollard | Devlin, Joseph |
| Balfour, Sir Robert (Lanark) | Carr-Gomm, H. W. | Dillon, John |
| Barran, Rowland Hirst (Leeds, N.) | Cawley, Harold T. (Heywood) | Donelan, Captain A. |
| Beck, Arthur Cecil | Chancellor, H. G. | Doris, W. |
| Benn, W. W. (Tower Hamlets, St. Geo.) | Chapple, Dr. W. A. | Duffy, William J. |
| Bethell, Sir John Henry | Clancy, John Joseph | Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness) |
| Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine | Clough, William | Edwards, Clement (Glamorgan, E.) |
| Black, Arthur W. | Collins, Stephen (Lambeth) | Edwards, Sir Francis (Radnor) |
| Booth, Frederick Handel | Cotton, William Francis | Edwards, John Hugh (Glamorgan, Mid) |
| Bowerman, C. W. | Cowan, W. H. | Esmonde, Dr. John (Tipperary, N.) |
| Brady, P. J. | Crumley, Patrick | Ferens, Rt. Hon. Thomas Robinson |
| Bryce, J. Annan | Davies, David (Montgomery Co.) | Ffrench, Peter |
| Buckmaster, Stanley O. | Davies, Timothy (Lincs., Louth) | Flavin, Michael Joseph |
| Furness, Stephen W. | Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester) | Roch, Walter F. (Pembroke) |
| Gelder, Sir W. A. | McGhee, Richard | Roche, Augustine (Louth) |
| Gill, A. H. | MacNeill, John G. S. (Donegal, South) | Rose, Sir Charles Day |
| Gladstone, W. G. C. | Macpherson, James Ian | Rowlands, James |
| Glanville, H. J. | M'Callum, John M. | Rowntree, Arnold |
| Goldstone, Frank | McKenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald | Russell, Rt. Hon. Thomas W. |
| Greenwood, Granville G. (Peterborough) | M'Laren, Hon. F. W. S. (Lincs., Spalding) | Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland) |
| Greenwood, Hamar (Sunderland) | M'Laren, Walter S. B. (Ches., Crewe) | Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel) |
| Griffith, Ellis J. | M'Micking, Major Gilbert | Scanlan, Thomas |
| Guest, Hon. Major C. H. C. (Pembroke) | Martin, J. | Scott, A. MacCailum (Glas., Bridgeton) |
| Guest, Hon. Frederick E. (Dorset, E.) | Masterman, C. F. G. | Sheehy, David |
| Gwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway) | Meagher, Michael | Shortt, E. |
| Hackett, J. | Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.) | Smith, Albert (Lancs., Clitheroe) |
| Hancock, J. G. | Menzies, Sir Walter | Snowden, P. |
| Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose) | Molloy, M. | Stanley, Albert (Staffs, N. W.) |
| Harmsworth, Cecil (Luton, Beds.) | Molteno, Percy Alport | Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe) |
| Harmsworth, R. L. (Caithness-shire) | Mooney, J. J. | Tennant, Harold John |
| Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, W.) | Morton, Alpheus Cleophas | Thomas, J. H. (Derby) |
| Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N. E.) | Munro, R. | Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton) |
| Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth) | Nannetti, Joseph P. | Trevelyan, Charles Philips |
| Hayden, John Patrick | Neilson, Francis | Ure, Rt. Hon. Alexander |
| Henry, Sir Charles S. | Nolan, Joseph | Verney, Sir Harry |
| Herbert, Col. Sir Ivor (Mon., S.) | Nuttall, Harry | Walsh, Stephen (Lancs., Ince) |
| Hinds, John | O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) | Walton, Sir Joseph |
| Hodge, John | O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.) | Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent) |
| Hogge, James Myles | O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool) | Wardle, George J. |
| Holmes, Daniel Thomas | O'Donnell, Thomas | Warner, Sir Thomas Courtenay |
| Holt, Richard Durning | O'Dowd, John | Watt, Henry A. |
| Howard, Hon. Geoffrey | O'Malley, William | Webb, H. |
| Hughes, Spencer Leigh | O'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, S.) | White, J. Dundas (Glasgow, Tradeston) |
| Johnson, W. | O'Sullivan, Timothy | White, Sir Luke (York, E. R.) |
| Jones, Edgar (Merthyr Tydvil) | Parker, James (Halifax) | White, Patrick (Meath, North) |
| Jones, William (Carnarvonshire) | Phillips, John (Longford, S.) | Whitehouse, John Howard |
| Joyce, Michael | Pointer, Joseph | Whittaker, Rt. Hon. Sir Thomas P. |
| Keating, M. | Power, Patrick Joseph | Wilkie, Alexander |
| Kilbride, Denis | Priestley, Sir Arthur (Grantham) | Williams, J. (Glamorgan) |
| King, J. (Somerset, N.) | Pringle, William M. R. | Williams, Llewelyn (Carmarthen) |
| Lambert, Rt. Hon. G. (Devon, S. Molton) | Radford, G. H. | Williams, P. (Middlesbrough) |
| Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade) | Raphael, Sir Herbert H. | Wilson, Hon. G. G. (Hull, W.) |
| Lawson, Sir W. (Cumb'rld, Cockerm'th) | Rea, Rt. Hon. Russell (South Shields) | Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton) |
| Leach, Charles | Rea, Walter Russell (Scarborough) | Yoxall, Sir James Henry |
| Levy, Sir Maurice | Reddy, Michael | |
| Lewis, John Herbert | Richardson, Albion (Peckham) | |
| Lundon, Thomas | Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln) | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr. Illingworth and Mr. Gulland. |
| Lyell, Charles Henry | Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside) | |
| Lynch, A. A. | Robinson, Sidney |
Original Question put, and agreed to.