- (1) The amount of rent taken to be the rental value under Sections twenty and twenty-one of The Finance (1909–10) Act, 1910, of a right to work minerals (where the right is the subject of a mining lease) or of a mineral wayleavc shall, in cases where the lessor is liable under any Act to pay any sum on account of rates, be the sum which would be payable as rent if the lessee were liable instead of the lessor.
- (2) Where for the purpose of ascertaining the rental value of minerals which are being worked by the proprietor, it is necessary for the Commissioners to determine the sum which would have been received as rent by the proprietor if the right to work the minerals had been leased to a working lessee, that rent shall be determined on the basis of the lessee paying all rates in respect of the minerals, notwithstanding that the case may be one in which the proprietor would have been liable to pay the rates or some part thereof.
§ Motion made and Question proposed, "That the Clause be read a second time."
§ Sir G. YOUNGERI beg to move the Second Reading of this Clause, and as the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer has promised to accept it, I need not trouble the Committee by making a speech upon it.
§ Mr. LLOYD GEORGEAs the hon. Baronet says, I did promise him that I 2854 would accept this Clause, and I think the case he made for it is perfectly consistent, because unless an alteration of this kind be made in the law, the Scottish landlord would be paying a higher rate than the English landlord with respect to the same class of property, inasmuch as he starts by paying a proportion of the rates. The English landlord may be paying too little or too much—
§ Mr. WEDGWOODHe pays nothing.
§ Mr. LLOYD GEORGEAt any rate, the Scottish landlord is paying, and it is rather unfair, as the Committee will see, that because he is paying a proportion of the rates he should for that reason have to pay more in respect of Mineral Rights Duty. Therefore, I am prepared to accept the hon. Baronet's new Clause.
§ Sir A. MARKHAMI do not think that that is quite how the tax works out, and I will tell the Committee why. We all know that Scotchmen do not pay anything unless they get full value for it, and that is what happens in this case. It is true that in Scotland the proprietor pays one-half or two-thirds of the rates, but the consequence is that in Scotland landlords have been able to receive a much higher rent for the same class of coal royalties than they have in England. Instead of relieving them of taxation, I think the same principle ought to be applied to owners in all parts of the Kingdom. As it is you will by this Clause only be making a present to the Scottish landlords. It may on the face of it seem just, but I think the Scottish landlords have had their pound of flesh by getting an increased rental.
§ Mr. WEDGWOODI want the Chancellor of the Exchequer to consider what it would mean if this proposal were made exactly the other way round. If we proposed to charge the landlords in England rates in addition to their royalty tax there would immediately be a great outcry that we were breaking contracts, and the landlord party on the other side would be up in arms against it. What are the facts? There has been an arrangement come to between the lessor and lessee which has taken into account the rates as well as the royalty on the coal. In Scotland the landlord has undertaken to pay half the rates and the lessee the other half. They make their own bargain on their own terms, and in England the parties or bargainers make their contracts 2855 on English lines. After these bargains have been made you are deliberately going by this new Clause to give a bonus to Scotch landlords. Suppose it had been the other way round, and you were proposing to put an extra tax on English landlords because they do not pay the rates, there would, as I have said, immediately be a great howl about breaking contracts. The fact is that to exactly the extent that English coalowners are competing with Scottish coalowners you are breaking contracts by this proposed change. You are, that is to say, making it more difficult for English coalowners to compete with Scottish coalowners by making this change in the basis of taxation. It all comes from trying to make artificial arrangements to suit all the different cases of bargaining between two parties. If instead of having a tax on royalties you had simply a straightforward tax on mineral values, whether used or not, in Scotland as well as in England, then no difficulty of this sort would have arisen. It would have been paid uniformly by all owners on the market value of their coal, and by that method, I submit, you would have got rid of the absurdity of our present system.
§ Mr. BOOTHI do not know whether the hon. Baronet, the Member for Mansfield (Sir Arthur Markham) is prepared to carry his opposition to the Clause to a division, but, if so, I think I should be bound to associate myself with him. I attach considerable importance to the question of mineral wayleaves, and I have always held the view that if you attempt to tax wayleaves at all you ought to put on a substantial tax. I should judge the case of a wayleave entirely differently from that of a mineral royalty, because the owners who initiated this kind of legislation in bygone generations have themselves not recognised the principle of way-leaves as against the public. What I mean is this. A landlord who has a narrow strip of land thinks that he should charge the utmost he can possibly get from anyone who takes a truck of coal beneath that strip, and I would turn that legislation against the coalowners. They themselves go under commons and roadside strips, and never pay wayleave to the public. Therefore, if those who represent the landlord interest consider it justifiable to extract exorbitant rent for wayleaves from those who get minerals and have to transport them from one piece of ground to 2856 another, they can have no ground of complaint against the public if they exact way-leaves when the owners go under a public road or common. I merely throw that out as a suggestion to the Chancellor of the Exchequer for future Budgets; but I must say candidly, as one who is as familiar with this question as anyone in the House of Commons except the hon. Baronet the Member for Mansfield (Sir A. Markham), that when the hon. Baronet (Sir George Younger) brings this forward as a new Clause I do not think he is really doing his friends any service at all. The more the subject is discussed, the more it is brought before the notice of the people, the sooner will come the awakening. I ventured to give that warning to hon. Gentlemen opposite a year ago, and I repeat it for their benefit now.
It seems nothing but pure selfishness on the part of owners to exact the wayleaves they do from commercial industries when they are not prepared for a moment to admit the same principle themselves if they go underneath a roadside strip or a common. How is the thing worked? A commercial firm, having sunk their shaft, having embarked a large amount of capital in the enterprise, and having gathered together the money to house their workers, have to calculate what it will cost to bring the coal from an adjoining estate or plot up that pit shaft. The royalty owner, who is very cute, calculates as nearly as he can the cost, so that it will pay the firm to acknowledge his wayleave rather than sink another shaft. In that way he exploits the industry as much as he can. Just because of the mere accident that he owns a narrow strip across which the coal passes. There is not the least justification for a man possessing that kind of right, and I repeat that I would tax these way-leaves very heavily, especially as they are a burden upon industry in the way I have indicated. I am with the hon. Member for Mansfield (Sir A. Markham). It simply means putting more money into the pockets of the owners of these minerals in Scotland. If it was for the relief of industry, it might be a very different matter. If there is any voting against a Clause like this, I shall certainly go into the Lobby against it.
§ Question put, "That the Clause be read a second time."
§ The Committee divided: Ayes, 240; Noes, 34.
2845| Division No. 203.] | AYES. | [1.15 a.m. |
| Agg-Gardner, James Tynte | Castlereagh, Viscount | Hall, Fred (Dulwich) |
| Archer-Shee, Major M. | Cautley, Henry Strother | Hamersley, Alfred St. George |
| Ashley, Wilfrid W. | Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) | Harris, Henry Percy |
| Baker, Sir Randolf L. (Dorset, N.) | Chambers, J. | Henderson, Major H. (Berkshire) |
| Banbury, Sir Frederick George | Clive, Captain Percy Archer | Hewins, William Albert Samuel |
| Baring, Maj. Hon. Guy V. (Winchester) | Coates, Major Sir Edward Feetham | Hill, Sir Clement L. |
| Barlow, Montague (Salford, South) | Craig, Norman (Kent, Thanet) | Hills, John Waller |
| Barnston, Harry | Dalrymple, Viscount | Hohler, Gerald Fitzroy |
| Bathurst, Charles (Wilts, Wilton) | Denniss, E. R. B. | Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield) |
| Beach, Hon. Michael Hugh Hicks | Dickson, Rt. Hon. C. Scott | Horne, Edgar (Surrey, Guildford) |
| Benn, Arthur Shirley (Plymouth) | Duke, Henry Edward | Hudson, Walter |
| Benn, Ion Hamilton (Greenwich) | Eyres-Monsell, Bolton M. | Jardine, Ernest (Somerset, East) |
| Bennett-Goldney, Francis | Faber, George D. (Clapham) | Jessel, Captain Herbert M. |
| Beresford, Lord Charles | Falle, Bertram Godfray | Joynson-Hicks, William |
| Bigland, Alfred | Fitzroy, Hon. Edward A. | Kerry, Earl of |
| Boles, Lieut.-Col Dennis Fortescue | Fleming, Valentine | Knight, Capt. E. A. |
| Boscawen, Sir Arthur S. T. Griffith- | Gastrell, Major W. Houghton | Kyffin-Taylor, G. |
| Boyton, James | Gibbs, G. A. | Larmor, Sir J. |
| Brassey, H. Leonard Campbell | Glazebrook, Captain Philip K. | Lewisham, Viscount |
| Bridgeman, William Clive | Goldsmith, Frank | Locker-Lampson, G. (Salisbury) |
| Bull, Sir William James | Gouldlng, Edward Alfred | Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester) |
| Burgoyne, Alan Hughes | Greens, Walter Raymond | Mackinder, Halford J. |
| Burn, Colonel C. R. | Gretton, John | Macmaster, Donald |
| Campion, W. R. | Guinness, Hon. W.E. (Bury S. Edmunds) | McNeill, Ronald (Kent, St. Augustine's) |
| Cassel, Felix | Gwynne, R. S. (Sussex, Eastbourne) | Malcolm, Ian |
| Mason, James F. (Windsor) | Remnant, James Farquharson | Tobin, Alfred Aspinall |
| Mildmay, Francis Bingham | Roberts, S. (Sheflield, Ecclesall) | Touche, George Alexander |
| Mills, Hon. Charles Thomas | Rolleston, Sir John | Walker, Col. William Hall |
| Neville, Reginald J. N. | Ronaldshay, Earl ol | Walrond, Hon. Lionel |
| Newdegate, F. A. | Royds, Edmund | Ward, A. S. (Herts, Watford) |
| Newman, John R. P. | Rutherford, Watson (L'pool, W. Derby) | Wheler, Granville C. H. |
| Newton, Harry Kottingham | Salter, Arthur Clavell | White, Major G. D. (Lancs., Southport) |
| Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield) | Sanders, Robert Arthur | Willoughby, Mapor Hon. Claud |
| Parkes, Ebenezer | Sandys, G. J. (Somerset, Wells) | Wood, John (Stalybridge) |
| Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington) | Stanier, Beville | Worthington-Evans, L. |
| Peel, Hon. W. R. W. (Taunton) | Starkey, John Ralph | Wright, Henry Fitzherbert |
| Perkins, Walter Frank | Stewart, Gershom | Younger, Sir George |
| Peto, Basil Edward | Swift, Rigby | |
| Pollock, Ernest Murray | Talbot, Lord Edmund | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr. |
| Pryce-Jones, Colonel E. | Thomson, W. Mitchell- (Down, N.) | Baird and Lord Henry Cavendish Bentinck. |
| Rawson, Colonel Richard H. | Thynne, Lord Alexander | |
| NOES. | ||
| Abraham, William (Dublin Harbour) | Hardie, J. Keir | O'Shaughnessy, P. J. |
| Acland, Francis Dyke | Harmsworth, Cecil (Luton, Beds) | O'Shee, James John |
| Armitage, Robert | Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N.E.) | O'Sullivan, Timothy |
| Baker, H. T. (Accrington) | Havelock-Allan, Sir Henry | Outhwaite, R. L. |
| Baker, Joseph Allen | Hayden, John Patrick | Parker, James (Halifax) |
| Bentham, G. J. | Hayward, Evan | Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek) |
| Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine | Henderson, Arthur (Durham) | Pease, Rt. Hon. Joseph A. (Rotherham) |
| Black, Arthur W. | Henry, Sir Charles | Phillips, John (Longford, S.) |
| Boland, John Pius | Higham, John Sharp | Pointer, Joseph |
| Booth, Frederick Handel | Hinds, John | Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H. |
| Bowerman, C. W. | Hogge, James Myles | Power, Patrick Joseph |
| Boyle, Daniel (Mayo, North) | Howard, Hon. Geoffrey | Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central) |
| Brace, William | Hughes, Spencer Leigh | Primrose, Hon. Neil James |
| Brady, Patrick Joseph | Illingworth, Percy H. | Pringle, William M. R. |
| Brocklehurst, William B. | Isaacs, Rt. Hon. Sir Rufus | Raffan, Peter Wilson |
| Burke, E. Haviland- | Jones, Edgar R. (Merthyr Tydvil) | Rea, Rt. Hon. Russell (South Shields) |
| Burns, Rt. Hon. John | Jones, H. Haydn (Merioneth) | Rea, Walter Russell (Scarborough) |
| Byles, Sir William Pollard | Joyce, Michael | Reddy, Michael |
| Carr-Gomm, H. W. | Kellaway, Frederick George | Redmond, John E. (Waterford) |
| Clancy, Joseph | Kennedy, Vincent Paul | Redmond, William (Clare, E.) |
| Clough, William | Kilbride, Denis | Richardson, Albion (Peckham) |
| Clynes, John R. | Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade) | Richardson, Thomas (Whitehaven) |
| Collins, Godfrey P. (Greenock) | Lansbury, George | Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln) |
| Collins, Stephen (Lambeth) | Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, West) | Roberts, George H. (Norwich) |
| Condon, Thomas Joseph | Lewis, John Herbert | Robertson, John M. (Tynesde) |
| Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. | Lundon, Thomas | Roche, Augustine (Louth) |
| Cotton, William Francis | Lynch, Arthur Alfred | Rowlands, James |
| Crooks, William | Macnamara, Rt. Hon. Dr. T. J. | Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland) |
| Crumley, Patrick | MacNeill, John G. S. (Donegal, South | Samuel, Sir Stuart M. (Whitechapel) |
| Cullinan, John | Macpherson, James Ian | Scanlan, Thomas |
| Davies, E. William (Eifion) | MacVeagh, Jeremiah | Scott, A. McCallum (Glas., Bridgeton) |
| Davies, Timothy (Lincs., Louth) | McGhee, Richard | Seely, Col. Rt. Hon. J. E. B. |
| Dawes, J. A. | McKenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald | Sheehy, David |
| Delany, William | Markham, Sir Arthur Basil | Shortt, Edward |
| Denman, Hon. R. D. | Marshall, Arthur Harold | Simon, Sir John Allsebrook |
| Devlin, Joseph | Mason, David M. (Coventry) | Smith, Albert (Lancs., Clitheroe) |
| Dillon, John | Masterman, Rt. Hon. C. F. G. | Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.) |
| Donelan, Captain A. | Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim) | Stanley, Albert (Staffs, N.W.) |
| Duffy, William J. | Molloy, Michael | Tennant, Harold John |
| Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness) | Montagu, Hon. E. S. | Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton) |
| Elibank, Rt. Hon. Master of | Mooney, John J. | Thorne, William (West Ham) |
| Esmonde, Dr. John (Tipperary, N.) | Morgan, George Hay | Trevelyan, Charles Philips |
| Esmonde, Sir Thomas (Wexford, N.) | Morrell, Philip | Ure, Rt. Hon. Alexander |
| Farrell, James Patrick | Morison, Hector | Wadsworth, J. |
| Ffrench, Peter | Muldoon, John | Wardle, George J. |
| Field, William | Munro, Robert | Webb, H. |
| Fitzgibbon, John | Murray, Captain Hon. Arthur C. | Wedgwood, Josiah C. |
| Flavin, Michael Joseph | Nannetti, Joseph P. | White, J. Dundas (Glasgow, Tradeston) |
| George, Rt. Hon. D. Lloyd | Needham, Christopher | White, Patrick (Meath, North) |
| Gill, Alfred Henry | Nolan, Joseph | Williams, J. (Glamorgan) |
| Greig, Colonel James William | O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) | Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton) |
| Guest, Hon. Frederick E. (Dorset, E.) | O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.) | Young, William (Perth, East) |
| Gulland, John William | O'Doherty, Philip | |
| Hackett, John | O'Donneil, Thomas | |
| Hall, Frederick (Normanton) | O'Dowd, John | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr. |
| Hancock, J. G. | O'Kelly, Edward P. (Wicklow, W.) | Wedgwood Benn and Mr. William Jones. |
| Harcourt, Rt. Hon. L. (Rossendale) | O'Malley, William | |
| Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose) | O'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, S.) |
Question, "That the Clause be read a second time," put, and agreed to.
| Division No. 204.] | AYES. | [1.50 a.m. |
| Abraham, William (Dublin Harbour) | Gibbs, George Abraham | Newton, Harry Kottingham |
| Acland, Francis Dyke | Glazebrook, Capt. Philip K. | Nicholson, Wm. G. (Petersfield) |
| Agg-Gardner, James Tynte | Goldsmith, Frank | Nolan, Joseph |
| Archer-Shee, Major M. | Gordon, John (Londonderry, South) | O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) |
| Armitage, Robert | Greene, Walter Raymond | O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.) |
| Ashley, Wilfrid W. | Greig, Colonel James William | O'Doherty, Philip |
| Baird, J. L. | Gretton, John | O'Donnell, Thomas |
| Baker, Harold T. (Accrington) | Guest, Hon. Frederick E. (Dorset, E.) | O'Dowd, John |
| Baker, Joseph Allen (Finsbury, E.) | Guinness, Hon. W. E. (Bury S. Edmunds) | O'Kelly, Edward P. (Wicklow, W.) |
| Baker, Sir Randolf L. (Dorset, N.) | Gulland, John William | O'Malley, William |
| Banbury, Sir Frederick George | Gwynne, R. S. (Sussex, Eastbourne) | O'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, S.) |
| Baring, Maj. Hon. Guy V. (Winchester) | Hackett, John | O'Shaughnessy, P. J. |
| Barlow, Montague (Salford, South) | Hall, D. B. (Isle of Wight) | O'Shee, James John |
| Barnston, H. | Hall, Fred (Dulwich) | O'Sullivan, Timothy |
| Bathurst, Charles (Wilton) | Hamersley, Alfred St. George | Parkes, Ebenezer |
| Beach, Hon. Michael Hugh Hicks | Hancock, John George | Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek) |
| Benn, Arthur Shirley (Plymouth) | Harcourt, Rt. Hon. L. (Rossendale) | Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington) |
| Benn, Ion Hamilton (Greenwich) | Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose) | Peel, Hon. W. R. W. (Taunton) |
| Bennett-Goldney, Francis | Harmsworth, Cecil (Luton, Beds) | Perkins, Walter Frank |
| Bentham, George Jackson | Havelock-Allan, Sir Henry | Peto, Basil Edward |
| Bigland, Alfred | Hayden, John Patrick | Phillips, John (Longford, S.) |
| Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine | Hayward, Evan | Pollock, Ernest Murray |
| Black, Arthur W. | Henderson, Major H. (Abingdon) | Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H. |
| Boland, John Pius | Henry, Sir Charles S. | Power, Patrick Joseph |
| Boles Lieut.-Col. Dennis Fortescue | Hewins, William Albert Samuel | Pretyman, Ernest George |
| Boscawen, Sir Arthur S. T. Griffith- | Hill, Sir Clement L. (Shrewsbury) | Primrose, Hon. Neil James |
| Bowerman, Charles W. | Hills, John Waller | Pringle, William M. R. |
| Boyle, Daniel (Mayo, North) | Hinds, John | Pryce-Jones, Col. E. (Montgom'y B'ghs) |
| Boyton, James | Hohler, Gerald Fitzroy | Rawson, Col. Richard H. |
| Brady, Patrick Joseph | Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield) | Rea, Rt. Hon. Russell (South Shields) |
| Bridgeman, W. Clive | Horne, Wm. E. (Surrey, Guildford) | Rea, Walter Russell (Scarborough) |
| Brocklehurst, William B. | Howard, Hon. Geoffrey | Reddy, Michael |
| Bull, Sir William James | Hughes, Spencer Leigh | Redmond, J. E. (Watertord) |
| Burgoyne, Alan Hughes | Illingworth, Percy H. | Redmond, William (Clare, E.) |
| Burke, E. Haviland- | Isaacs, Rt. Hon. Sir Rufus | Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln) |
| Burn, Colonel C. R. | Jardine, Ernest (Somerset, East) | Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall) |
| Burns, Rt. Hon. John | Jessel, Captain Herbert M. | Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside) |
| Campion, W. R. | Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) | Roche, Augustine (Louth) |
| Carr-Gomm, H. W. | Joyce, Michael | Ronaldshay, Earl of |
| Cassel, Felix | Joynson-Hicks, William | Rowlands, Thomas |
| Castlereagh, Viscount | Kellaway, Frederick George | Royds, Edmund |
| Cautley, Henry Strother | Kennedy, Vincent Paul | Rutherford, Watson (L'pool, W. Derby) |
| Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) | Kerry, Earl of | Salter, Arthur Clavell |
| Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J. A. (Worc'r.) | Kyffin-Taylor, G. | Samuel, Sir Stuart M. (Whitechapel) |
| Chambers, James | Larmor, Sir J. | Sanders, Robert Arthur |
| Clancy, John Joseph | Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, W.) | Sandys, G. J. |
| Clive, Captain Percy Archer | Lewis, John Herbert | Scanlan, Thomas |
| Clough, William | Lewisham, Viscount | Scott, A. MacCallum (Glas., Bridgeton) |
| Coates, Major Sir Edward Feetham | Locker-Lampson, G. (Salisbury) | Seely, Colonel Rt. Hon. J. E. B. |
| Collins, Godfrey P. (Greenock) | Lundon, T. | Sheehy, David |
| Collins, Stephen (Lambeth) | Lynch, A. A. | Shortt, Edward |
| Condon, Thomas Joseph | Mackinder, Halford J. | Simon, Sir John Allsebrook |
| Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. | Maclean, Donald | Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim) |
| Craig, Norman (Kent, Thanet) | Macmaster, Donald | Stanier, Beville |
| Crooks, William | Macnamara, Rt. Hon. Dr. T. J. | Starkey, John Ralph |
| Crumley, Patrick | MacNeill, John G. S. (Donegal, South) | Stewart, Gershom |
| Cullinan, John | Macpherson, James Ian | Swift, Rigby |
| Dalrymple, Viscount | MacVeagh, Jeremiah | Talbot, Lord Edmund |
| Davies, Ellis William (Eifion) | McGhee, Richard | Tennant, Harold John |
| Davies, Timothy (Lincs., Louth) | McKenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald | Thomson, W. Mitchell- (Down, North) |
| Dawes, J. A. | McNeill, Ronald (Kent, St. Augustine's) | Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton) |
| Delany, William | Malcolm, Ian | Thynne, Lord Alexander |
| Denman, Hon. Richard Douglas | Mason, David M. (Coventry) | Tobin, Alfred Aspinall |
| Denniss, E. R. B. | Mason, James F. (Windsor) | Touche, George Alexander |
| Devlin, Joseph | Masterman, Rt. Hon. C. F. G. | Trevelyan, Charles Philips |
| Dickson, Rt. Hon. C. Scott | Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.) | Ure, Rt. Hon. Alexander |
| Dillon, John | Mildmay, Francis Bingham | Walrond Hon. Lionel |
| Duffy, William J. | Mills, Hon. Charles Thomas | Ward, Arnold S. (Herts, Watford) |
| Duke, Henry Edward | Molloy, Michael | Webb, H. |
| Esmonde, Dr. John (Tipperary, N.) | Montagu, Hon. E. S. | Wheler, Granville C. H. |
| Esmonde, Sir Thomas (Wexford, N.) | Mooney, John J. | White, Major G. D. (Lancs., Southport) |
| Eyres-Monsell, Bolton M. | Morgan, George Hay | White, J. Dundas (Glasgow, Tradeston) |
| Falle, Bertram Godfray | Morrell, Philip | White, Patrick (Meath, North) |
| Farrell, James Patrick | Morison, Hector | Willoughby, Major Hon. Claude |
| Ffrench, Peter | Muldoon, John | Wood, John (Stalybridge) |
| Field, William | Munro, Robert | Worthington-Evans, L. |
| Fitzgibbon, John | Murray, Capt. Hon. Arthur C. | Young, William (Perth, East) |
| Flavin, Michael Joseph | Nannetti, Joseph P. | Younger, Sir George |
| Fleming, Valentine | Neville, Reginald J. N. | |
| Gastrell, Major W. Houghton | Newdegate, F. A. | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr. |
| George, Rt. Hon. D. Lloyd | Newman, John R. P. | Wedgwood Benn and Mr. W. Jones. |
| NOES. | ||
| Brace, William | Jowett, Frederick William | Roberts, George (Norwich) |
| Byles, Sir William Pollard | Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade) | Smith, Albert (Lancs., Clitheroe) |
| Clynes, J. R. | Lansbury, George | Stanley, Albert (Staffs., N.W.) |
| Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness) | Macdonald, J. Ramsay (Leicester) | Thorne, William (West Ham) |
| Gill, Alfred Henry | Marshall, Arthur Harold | Wadsworth, John |
| Hall, Frederick (Normanton) | Needham, Christopher T. | Wedgwood, Josiah C. |
| Hardie, J. Keir (Merthyr Tydvil) | O'Grady, James | Williams, John (Glamorgan) |
| Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N.E.) | Outhwaite, R. L. | Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton) |
| Henderson, Arthur (Durham) | Parker, James (Halifax) | |
| Higham, John Sharp | Pointer, Joseph | |
| Hogge, James Myles | Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central) | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr. |
| Hudson, Walter Leigh | Raffan, Peter Wilson | Booth and Sir Arthur Markham. |
| Jones, Edgar R. (Merthyr Tydvil) | Richardson, Thomas (Whitehaven) |
The CHAIRMANThe Clause standing in the name of the hon. Member for Edinburgh and others is out of order on the ground that it is outside the scope of the Bill.
§ Mr. WEDGWOODMay I ask whether you have passed over the Amendment standing in my name?
§ Mr. WEDGWOODNo, that is a subsequent Clause. The one standing in my name relates to the definition of site value.
The CHAIRMANI was not referring to that one. The Clause to define the site value is, however, outside the scope of the Bill.
§ Mr. WEDGWOODOn what grounds do you rule it outside the scope of the Bill. The object of the Amendment is to provide a new form of site value which will more accurately register those values upon which the rates are levied.
The CHAIRMANIt has nothing to do with finance. Suppose the hon. Member proposed a Clause that all the houses in the country should be valued. That would be outside the scope of the Bill; but if he proposed that every house should be taxed ad valorem on that valuation that would be in order, except that it would require a new resolution.
§ Mr. WEDGWOODWould it be in order to move to substitute this valuation before the full site value already in the Bill?
The CHAIRMANIf the hon. Member proposed it in that form I should have to consider whether that imposed additional taxation on any one of His Majesty's subjects. If it reduced the taxation it would be in order, but if it increased the taxation upon anyone it would require a resolution. The same thing will apply to the second Amendment standing in the name. 2860 of the hon. Member for Edinburgh. It is outside the scope of the Bill.
§ Mr. WEDGWOODOn a point of Order, I may say that the object of the second Amendment is to enable the Commissioners to make the valuation public. Under Clause 30 of the original Finance Act (1909–10) the Commissioners are given certain powers as to imparting information. In Sub-section 2 of that Clause occur these words:—
The Commissioners shall furnish to any person interested in the land, or to any person authorised by any person so interested, on his application" etc., "copies of any particulars so recorded by them relating to the land," etc.The object of the second Amendment we have on the paper is to amend that Sub-section so that under Clause 30 the Commissioners can furnish information regarding the valuation to any person whether he is interested in the land or not. I submit that a Clause in the Finance Act of this year which simply modifies a Clause in the Finance Act of two years ago cannot be outside the scope of this Finance Bill and that therefore we are justified in bringing forward this Amendment, so as to correct and bring up to date this particular Clause 30 which deals simply with the question of the publication of the valuation.
The CHAIRMANThis Amendment has nothing to do with any tax either in the preceding Budget, in the Finance Act, or in this Finance Bill. Therefore it is outside the scope of the Bill.
§ Mr. WEDGWOODI submit respectfully that I am justified in pressing this point, which is very important. The Commissioners are entitled to give information to any person interested in the land. It has actually been held doubtful whether that does not already give the Commissioners power to supply to any person 2861 interested in another piece of land the particulars about this land. If "people interested in the land" includes people who have mortgages on the land, and people who receive ground rents or tithes from it, all these people are authorised by this Sub-section 2 of Clause 30 to have a valuation supplied to them on payment of a fee of 2s. 6d. It is simply a question of who are the people to be entitled, outside the owner of the land, to information of the valuation. I submit that it is in order to extend the category of persons who shall have the power to inspect this valuation to the whole of the ratepayers in the district just in the same way as the present valuation lists are open to any ratepayer.
Mr. PRICEOn a point of Order. How is it possible to find out whether the valuation is a correct one unless you make the valuation public?
The CHAIRMANThat is a matter of merits, not of Order. The hon. Member can argue that at a later stage.
§ Mr. WEDGWOODI ask your definite ruling, Sir, on this point. Is it not within the scope of the Finance Act of this year to extend the category of persons who are entitled to see the valuation?
§ Mr. WEDGWOODYou are not the Chairman. Are we not entitled to increase the category of persons who are entitled to inspect the valuation to those who are as ratepayers interested in the valuation?
The CHAIRMANNo. If I allow this, it would permit all kinds of things quite foreign to the finance of the year to be proposed in the Finance Bill.
§ Mr. WEDGWOODThat seems to make it impossible to carry any Amendment to a Clause in a past Finance Act unless the Clause deals actually with finance. Here is a question which deals with the machinery of certain taxation and you rule that it is out of order to move an Amendment to a Clause in the Finance Act which deals with that finance. That ruling goes rather wide of the mark. I quite agree that your ruling on the first of these proposed new Clauses is covered by the fact that it is foreign to the business of the Finance Act; but this second Clause deals simply with an existing Clause in an 2862 existing Finance Act, and I submit that an Amendment to a Clause in an existing Finance Act is within the scope of a subsequent Finance Act.
The CHAIRMANI am afraid my ruling must stand. Although it is in form an Amendment of an existing Clause it is in effect an addition of a subject quite outside the scope of the existing or the proposed taxes.