§ The Treasury may issue out of the Consolidated Fund of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, and apply towards making good the Supply granted to His Majesty for the Service of the year ending on the thirty-first day of March, one thousand nine hundred and thirteen, the sum of ninety-two million eight hundred and forty-seven thousand three hundred and forty-three pounds.
§ Mr. T. M. HEALYI wish to ask whether it is the Statutes of the Realm that govern the practice of the Treasury or some Minutes of their own which they are pleased to lay before the House? The right hon. Gentleman the Secretary for the Treasury yesterday stated that in spite of the Statutes to which he referred me, and in spite of the fact that these Statutes have received the Royal Assent and we are declaring by these Statutes that we have granted the money, these Grants are not Grants, and the right hon. Gentleman at the Treasury can imprint upon these Grants the character of loans because of some antecedent Minutes which have been before this House. If that is the view of the law, it seems to me to be a defiance of the Statutes. The matter is of considerable importance, having regard to the practice of the Treasury on Budget nights. That practice is that the moment they get a Resolution of the House of Commons, they enforce it at the ports and elsewhere. I have nothing to say against that practice, and I know the present Government are not responsible for it, because it has gone on over a series of years. These Resolutions were taken on Budget night, and they are invariably confirmed by Statute, so that all the Treasury does in that case is that they anticipate the Statute and treat it 2520 afterwards as practically an Indemnity Act. This is inverting the whole procedure. It is not merely putting the cart before the horse, but providing that, though your Statute says that these Grants are Grants only, you will defy the Statute and treat them as loans.
As regards the particular £500,000 to which I take exception, you have not any Resolution in Ways and Means to support it. My recollection is that what happened was that the Ways and Means Resolution never touched this £500,000 for East Africa at all. What happened was that the Government came down on the Report stage and said, "We will amend the Ways and Means Resolution on Report," as the procedure then suggested was only putting £5,000,000 into the Sinking Fund instead of £6,500,000, and the odd £1,500,000 will be provided for by special Resolution. This £500,000 has no Ways and Means Resolution to support it. It is simply a Resolution in Supply, and that gives a certain amount of validation to it. If you consider the Standing Orders, there is no Resolution of Ways and Means to authorise the procedure we are adopting to-day. Does it not follow that it is a piece of unexampled audacity on the part of the Treasury to say that, having got this in the form of Statute, they will declare by some secret document which they have at the Treasury, a litte Memorandum which has never received the authority of the King, Lords, or Commons, we will govern and override the Statute? Even James II. never did anything of that sort. It is all very well to say that it has been done before. Some of these provisions are dated the 1st of August, and then you put them in your Finance Bill five days afterwards. If this House is to be treated in this way by slipping things through and dodging things through, then all our control over finance is gone. The Government have never before stated in terms they would override the Statute law, and I respectfully put this to the learned Attorney-General. Here is a sum of £500,000 which the Treasury say is Grant money, and which the Statute says is Grant money. What position is the King in? Are you going to advise him against the Statute, which says he has got this money granted? I maintain, as far as His Majesty is concerned, when this Act is passed, he could spend this money on a racecourse. [HON. 2521 MEMBERS: "Oh!"] I maintain it. Let me read to the Committee the only granting part.
§ The CHAIRMANI am trying to find the hon. Member's point, but I am afraid what he is proposing is really out of order. This first Clause deals with a sum of money that has been voted by the House first in Committee of Supply and then in Committee of Ways and Means, and the Resolution has been agreed to by the House. It is not competent for this Committee either to add to or reduce that sum. It is bound to be the exact sum on which the Bill is based, and which has been dealt with in that manner. Therefore, at this stage, it is not competent to raise this question. I understand the hon. Member raised it in the House, which is the proper place. As far as this Bill is concerned, it is bound to be pari passu with the Resolution on which it is founded.
§ Mr. T. M. HEALYI follow your observations, but you have stated this Bill is founded not merely on Committee of Supply, but also on Committee of Ways and Means. My point is it is not. There is no Ways and Means Committee.
§ The CHAIRMANThe hon. Member must take that point from Mr. Speaker. It is not a point to be dealt with at this stage.
§ Lord HUGH CECILOn the point of Order. I understand the hon. and learned Gentleman is discussing the Question that "Clause 1 stand part of the Bill." I submit it is an argument against the Clause standing part of the Bill if the Clause contains a misstatement on the face of it. His point, as I understand it, is that, as a matter of fact, Supply has not been granted to His Majesty as stated in the Clause, but has been in part lent to His Majesty. I apprehend, therefore, it is in order for the hon. and learned Member to argue that the Clause contains an inaccuracy as an argument for voting against the Clause.
§ The CHAIRMANI do not think so. The Clause conforms exactly to the Resolution of the House on which the Bill is founded, and, as far as this Committee is concerned, that is an end of it. The hon. and learned Member, as I understand, is raising a point as to the competency, first of all, of the Ways and Means Resolution, and, as far as we are concerned, this Clause is bound to conform with that Resolution.
§ Lord HUGH CECILI quite understand it is impossible to amend the Clause, as it is absolutely governed by the Resolution on which it is founded. The question is not whether we can amend it, but whether we shall have it at all, and it does seem to me relevant to that question whether the Clause contains a misstatement or not, and that it would be perfectly proper to strike out the Clause if it is in fact incorrect.
§ The CHAIRMANThat really is hardly so. After all, the discussion on the Clause must be relevant to something that can be done.
§ Mr. T. M. HEALYI shall give my reason for opposing the Clause. It is because, in fact, we are told by the Government that the Clause they are passing into law will not be treated by them as the law. Although they have stated they will obtain the Royal Assent to this Statute, they have declared they will disobey it because, although we have granted, and are granting, and cheerfully granting to His Majesty this Clause, they tell us that in fact they will treat the Clause not as a Grant but as a loan. For the first time, they will put His Majesty in this position: Without giving him any directions as to the way in which this £500,000 is to be spent.
§ The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER (Mr. Lloyd George)On the point of Order. This is not the first time on which a discussion on the Committee stage of the Appropriation Bill has been attempted, but, if it is allowed now, it will be a very serious precedent, and I should like your ruling upon it. My hon. Friend is attempting to raise a discussion on the Committee stage of the Bill, and I think he has done so many times in the past.
§ Mr. T. M. HEALYI am following your example.
§ Mr. LLOYD GEORGEYes, and up to the present we have always failed. I do not believe there has ever been an occasion on which a discussion of the merits of any particular Vote or the method in which it is going to be spent has been permitted in Committee. I understand my hon. Friend's argument is that the Government have expressed their intention in a different way from that which is included in the Bill, and that the money is going to be spent in a different way. That, I submit, is not a question to be discussed 2523 in Committee on the Appropriation Bill, but is one which can be discussed on a subsequent stage if the Government have overriden the Statute. If the money appropriated for a specific purpose was used for a different purpose, that could be discussed at the proper stage, but not at this stage.
§ Mr. T. M. HEALYLet me illustrate the ground of my remarks. There is in this Bill, without any Resolution either in Ways and Means or in Supply, a Vote of £300,000 for our salaries. Is it to be suggested we could not on this Clause or on another Clause raise, as we did last year, the whole question of the salaries of Members of Parliament? Is this the position: That, so far as the Committee is concerned, the granting to the Government of £150,000,000 of money is a farce?
§ The CHAIRMANThe Chancellor of the Exchequer is quite correct. It is not competent on the Committee of the Bill to raise any question of policy or as to the method the money has been granted in Supply or in Committee of Ways and Means. The hon. Member, of course, can vote against the Clause. There is one further observation I must make. It is not quite correct to say no discussion can take place. The Amendment of the hon. Member for Sheffield (Mr. James Hope) on Clause 2 is one previously allowed, and I shall allow it on this occasion.
§ Mr. T. M. HEALYThis, with great deference, is not a question of moving an Amendment. Am I not entitled to give my reasons for being opposed to this Clause? Do you rule that speech is forbidden on this Clause, because that is the contention of the Chancellor of the Exchequer? Surely there are plenty of weapons in the armoury of the Government for shutting us out. Let them move the Closure, but until you tell me to sit down I will go on speaking.
§ The CHAIRMANThe hon. and learned Member, I am sure, will take it from me that he is not entitled to discuss policy, or whether this should or should not be this sum or any particular amount. I do not know whether there is anything else he can find to say apart from that. My ruling follows previous precedents that it would not be competent to discuss policy.
§ Mr. T. M. HEALYI will not discuss any policy. I will give my reasons for voting against the Clause if I can get 2524 anybody to support me, and as soon as you rule me out of order, I will approach another topic. I stated my objections to the methods of the Government, and I was met by the statement of the Secretary to the Treasury that the methods of the Government followed the lines of previous Governments. I respectfully say, if that be the case, it is time this Government and all Governments adopted a new method of procedure in respect of this Appropriation Bill.
§ The CHAIRMANThe hon. Member is now doing exactly what I ruled he could not do; he is discussing the policy included in the Vote. The proper time to discuss that was when the Vote was in Committee, and not now.
§ Mr. T. M. HEALYIf you say no discussion is to be allowed, I am not going to enter into any contest with the Chair; I have too much respect for the Chair; but I do wish to have some definite ruling from the Chair. For instance, I want to know from you whether it would be out of order at this stage to discuss any of the Votes included in this Bill?
§ The CHAIRMANMay I quote to the hon. Member a passage from Sir Erskine May:—
The conduct of the official or of the Department which has received a Supply Grant cannot be challenged in Committee on the Bill.
§ Lord HUGH CECILWould it not be quite in order to discuss whether the Clause is properly and correctly drafted, and truly expresses the intention of the Bill or the Resolution on which the Bill is founded? I take it it is in order to discuss any point of drafting, but it is not in order to discuss any point on the merits of the Grant.
§ The CHAIRMANOf course, the Clause follows strictly the Resolution of the House in Ways and Means on which the Bill is founded.
§ Mr. T. M. HEALYI will not discuss the conduct of any of the Departments in reference to this Bill or the merits of any Grant, but I will discuss the enormous difficulty in which this would place His Majesty the King.
§ The CHAIRMANThe hon. Member said he would bow to the considered judgment of the Chair.
§ Mr. T. M. HEALYVery well; I will not carry the matter further.
§ Question put, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."
2526§ The Committee divided: Ayes, 219; Noes, 165.
2527| Division No. 190.] | AYES. | [12.50 p.m. |
| Abraham, William (Dublin Harbour) | Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose) | Neilson, Francis |
| Acland, Francis Dyke | Hardie, J. Keir (Merthyr Tydvil) | Nicholson, Sir Charles N. (Doncaster) |
| Addison, Dr. C. | Harmsworth, Cecil (Luton, Beds) | Nolan, Joseph |
| Ainsworth, John Stirling | Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, W.) | Norman, Sir Henry |
| Alden, Percy | Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N.E.) | Nugent, Sir Walter Richard |
| Allen, A. A. (Dumbartonshire) | Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth) | O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) |
| Armitage, Robert | Havelock-Allan, Sir Henry | O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.) |
| Arnold, Sydney | Hayden, John Patrick | O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool) |
| Baker, H. T. (Accrington) | Hayward, Evan | O'Doherty, Philip |
| Baker, Joseph Allen (Finsbury, E.) | Helme, Sir Norval Watson | O'Donnell, Thomas |
| Baring, Sir Godfrey (Barnstaple) | Henderson, Arthur (Durham) | O'Dowd, John |
| Benn, W. W. (T. H'mts, St. George) | Henderson, J. M. (Aberdeen, W.) | O'Kelly, Edward P. (Wicklow, W.) |
| Bentham, G. J. | Higham, John Sharp | O'Malley, William |
| Birrell. Rt. Hon. Augustine | Hinds, John | O'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, S.) |
| Black, Arthur W. | Hobhouse, Rt. Hon. E. H. | O'Shaughnessy, P. J. |
| Boland, John Pius | Hogge, James Myles | O'Shee, James John |
| Booth, Frederick Handel | Holmes, Daniel Turner | O'Sullivan, Timothy |
| Boyle, D. (Mayo, N.) | Holt, Richard Durning | Outhwaite, R. L. |
| Brace, William | Hope, John Deans (Haddington) | Palmer, Godfrey Mark |
| Brady, Patrick Joseph | Horne, C. Silvester (Ipswich) | Parker, James (Hatifax) |
| Brocklehurst, William B. | Howard, Hon. Geoffrey | Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek) |
| Bryce, J. Annan | Hughes, Spencer Leigh | Pease, Rt. Hon. J. A. (Rotherham) |
| Burke, E. Haviland- | Isaacs, Rt. Hon. Sir Rufus | Phillips, John (Longford, S.) |
| Burns, Rt. Hon. John | John, Edward Thomas | Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H. |
| Buxton, Noel (Norfolk, N.) | Jones, Rt.Hon.Sir D.Brynmor (Swansea) | Power, Patrick Joseph |
| Byles, Sir William Pollard | Jones, Edgar (Merthyr Tydvil) | Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central) |
| Cameron, Robert | Jones, H. Haydn (Merioneth) | Pringle, William M. R. |
| Carr-Gomm, H. W. | Jones, William (Carnarvonshire) | Radford, George Heynes |
| Cawley, Sir Fraderick (Prestwich) | Jones, W. S. Glyn- (T. H'mts, Stepney) | Raffan, Peter Wilson |
| Chancellor, Henry George | Joyce, Michael | Rea, Rt. Hon. Russell (South Shields)) |
| Clancy, John Joseph | Keating, Matthew | Rea, Walter Russell (Scarborough) |
| Clough, William | Kellaway, Frederick George | Reddy, Michael |
| Collins, Stephen (Lambeth) | Kelly, Edward | Redmond, John E. (Waterford) |
| Compton-Rickett, Rt. Hon. Sir J. | Kennedy, Vincent Paul | Redmond, William (Clare, E.) |
| Condon, Thomas Joseph | Kilbride, Denis | Richardson, Albion (Peckham) |
| Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. | King, Joseph | Richardson, Thomas (Whitehaven) |
| Cotton, William Francis | Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade) | Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln) |
| Crawshay-Williams, Eliot | Lansbury, George | Roberts, G. H. (Norwich) |
| Crooks, William | Lardner, James Carrige Rushe | Robertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradford) |
| Crumley, Patrick | Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, West) | Roche, Walter F. |
| Cullinan, John | Lawson, Sir W. (Cumb'rld, Cockerm'th) | Roche, Augustine (Louth) |
| Dalziel, Rt. Hon. Sir J. H. (Kirkcaldy) | Leach, Charles | Roe, Sir Thomas |
| Davies, Timothy (Lincs., Louth) | Lewis, John Herbert | Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland) |
| Dawes, James Arthur | Lough, Rt. Hon. Thomas | Samuel, J. (Stockton) |
| Delany, William | Lundon, Thomas | Scanlan, Thomas |
| Denman, Hon. Richard Douglas | Lyell, Charles Henry | Scott, A. MacCallum (Glas., Bridgeton) |
| Devlin, Joseph | Lynch, Arthur Alfred | Seely, Rt. Mon. Col. J. E. B. |
| Dickinson, W. H. | Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester) | Sheehy, David |
| Dillon, John | Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk Burghs) | Sherwell, Arthur James |
| Donelan, Captain A, | McGhee, Richard | Shortt, Edward |
| Duffy, William | Maclean, Donald | Simon, Sir John Allsebrook |
| Elibank, Rt. Hon. Master of | Macnamara, Rt. Hon. Dr. T. J. | Smith, Albert (Lancs., Clitheroe) |
| Esmonde, Dr. John (Tipperary, N.) | Macpherson, James Ian | Smyth, Thomas F. |
| Essex, Richard Walter | MacVeagh, Jeremiah | Sutherland, John E. |
| Farrell, James Patrick | McCallum, Sir John M. | Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe) |
| Ffrench, Peter | McKenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald | Tennant, Harold John |
| Field, William | Marks, Sir George Croydon | Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton) |
| Fitzgibbon, John | Marshall, Arthur Harold | Thorne, William (West Ham) |
| Flavin, Michael Joseph | Mason, David M. (Coventry) | Ure, Rt. Hon. Alexander |
| George, Rt. Hon. D. Lloyd | Masterman, Rt. Hon. C. F. G. | Wadsworth, J. |
| Gill, Alfred Henry | Meagher, Michael | Walters, Sir John Tudor |
| Gladstone, W. G. C. | Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.) | Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent) |
| Glanville, Harold James | Molloy, Michael | Wardle, George J. |
| Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford | Molteno, Percy Alport | Warner, Sir Thomas Courtenay |
| Greenwood, Granville G. (Peterborough) | Mond, Sir Alfred M. | Wedgwood, Josiah C. |
| Greenwood, Hamar (Sunderland) | Mooney, John J. | White, J. Dundas (Glasgow, Tradeston) |
| Greig, Colonel James William | Morgan, George Hay | Williamson, Sir A. |
| Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward | Morrell, Philip | Wilson, Hon. G. G. (Hull, W.) |
| Guest, Major Hon. C. H. C. (Pembroke) | Morison, Hector | Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton) |
| Guest, Hon. Frederick (Dorset, E.) | Morton, Alpheus Cleophas | Wood, Rt. Hon. T. McKinnon (Glas.) |
| Hackett, John | Muldoon, John | Yoxall, Sir James Henry |
| Hall, Frederick (Normanton) | Munro, Robert | |
| Hancock, J. G. | Murray, Captain Hon. Arthur C. | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr. Illingworth and Mr. Gulland. |
| Harcourt, Rt. Hon. L. (Rossendale) | Nannetti, Joseph P. | |
| NOES. | ||
| Agg-Gardner, James Tynte | Bagot, Lieut.-Colonel J. | Balcarres, Lord |
| Anson, Rt. Hon. Sir William R. | Baird, J. L. | Banbury, Sir Frederick George |
| Ashley, Wilfrid W. | Baker, Sir Randolf L. (Dorset, N.) | Banner, John S. Harmood- |
| Baring, Maj. Hon. Guy V. (Winchester) | Foster, Philip Staveley | Parkes, Ebenezer |
| Barnston, H. | Gardner, Ernest | Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington) |
| Barrie, H. T. (Londonderry, N.) | Gastrell, Major W. Houghton | Peel, Captain R. F. (Woodbridge) |
| Bathurst, Hon. A. B. (Glouc, E.) | Gibbs, George Abraham | Peel, Hon. W. R. W. (Taunton) |
| Bathurst, Charles (Wilts, Wilton) | Gilmour, Captain J. | Perkins, Walter Frank |
| Beach, Hon. Michael Hugh Hicks | Goldsmith, Frank | Peto, Basil Edward |
| Beckett, Hon. Gervase | Gordon, John (Londonderry, South) | Pole-Carew, Sir R. |
| Benn, Ian Hamilton (Greenwich) | Goulding, Edward Alfred | Pollock, E. M. |
| Bennett-Goldney, Francis | Grant, James Augustus | Pretyman, Ernest George |
| Bentinck, Lord Henry Cavendish- | Greene, Walter Raymond | Pryce-Jones, Col. E. |
| Beresford, Lord Charles | Gretton, John | Quilter, Sir W. E. C. |
| Bird, Alfred | Gwynn, R. S. (Sussex, Eastbourne) | Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel |
| Boles, Lieut.-Col. Dennis Fortescue | Haddock, George Bahr | Rees, Sir J. D. |
| Boscawen, Sir Arthur S. T. Griffith- | Hamersley, Alfred St. George | Remnant, James Farquharson |
| Boyle, W. Lewis (Norfolk, Mid) | Harris, Henry Percy | Rolleston, Sir J. |
| Boyton, James | Helmsley, Viscount | Ronaldshay, Earl of |
| Brassey, H. Leonard Campbell | Henderson, Major H. (Berkshire) | Royds, Edmund |
| Bridgeman, William Clive | Herbert, Hon. A. (Somerset, S.) | Rutherford, John (Lancs., Darwen) |
| Burn, Colonel C. R. | Hewins, William Albert Samuel | Salter, Clavell |
| Campion, W. R. | Hickman, Col, Thomas E. | Samuel, Sir Harry (Norwood) |
| Cassel, Felix | Hills, Sir Clement L. | Sanders, Robert Arthur |
| Cator, John | Hohler, Gerald Fitzroy | Sandys, G. J. |
| Cautley, Henry Strother | Hope, Harry (Bute) | Spear, Sir John Ward |
| Cave, George | Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield) | Stanler, Beville |
| Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) | Houston, Robert Paterson | Starkey, John Ralph |
| Cecil, Lord Hugh (Oxford University) | Hunter, Sir Charles Rodk. (Bath) | Staveley-Hill, Henry |
| Ceci, Lord Robert (Herts, Hitchin) | Ingleby, Holcombe | Stewart, Gershom |
| Chambers, James | Jackson, Sir John | Sykes, Mark (Hull, Central) |
| Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry | Jardine, Ernest (Somerset, E.) | Talbot, Lord Edmund |
| Clay, Captain H. H. Spender | Kerr-Smiley, Peter Kerr | Terrell, George (Wilts., N.W.) |
| Clive, Captain Percy Archer | Kerry, Earl of | Thynne, Lord A. |
| Clyde, James Avon | Kimber, Sir Henry | Tobin, Alfred Aspinall |
| Craig, Charles Curtis (Antrim, S.) | Kyffin-Taylor, G. | Touche, George Alexander |
| Craig, Captain James (Down, E.) | Larmor, Sir J. | Valentia, Viscount |
| Craig, Norman (Kent, Thanet) | Lawson, Hon. H. (T. H'mts., Mile End) | Walrond, Hon. Lionel |
| Cripps, Sir Charles Alfred | Lewisham, Viscount | Ward, A. S. (Herts, Watford) |
| Dalrymple, Viscount | Locker-Lampson, G. (Salisbury) | Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid) |
| Dalziel, Davison (Brixton) | Lonsdale, Sir John Brownlee | Wheler, Granville C. H. |
| Denniss, E. R. B. | Lowe, Sir F. W. (Birm., Edgbaston) | White, Major G. D. (Lancs., Southport) |
| Dickson, Rt. Hon. C. Scott | Mackinder, Halford J. | Willoughby, Major Hon. Claud |
| Dixon, Charles Harvey | Macmaster, Donald | Wilson, A. Stanley (Yorks, E.R.) |
| Duke, Henry Edward | M-Neill, Ronald (Kent, St. Augustine's) | Winterton, Earl |
| Eyres-Monsell, Bolton M. | Magnus, Sir Philip | Wolmer, Viscount |
| Faber, George Denison (Clapham) | Malcolm, Ian | Wood, Hon. E. F. L. (Yorks, Ripon) |
| Faber, Captain W. V. (Hants, W.) | Mason, James F. (Windsor) | Worthington-Evans, L. |
| Falle, Bertram Godfray | Middlemore, John Throgmorton | Wright, Henry Fitzherbert |
| Fell, Arthur | Moore, William | Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George |
| Fetherstonhaugh, Godfrey | Morrison-Bell, Capt. E. F. (Ashburton) | Yate, Col. C. E. |
| Finlay, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert | Newman, John R. P. | Younger, Sir George |
| Fitzroy, Hon. Edward A. | Newton, Harry Kottingham | |
| Flannery, Sir J. Fortescue | Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield) | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr. T. M. Healy and Mr. Hills. |
| Fleming, Valentine | Orde-Powlett, Hon. W. G. A. | |
| Fletcher, John Samuel (Hampstead) |
Question put, and agreed to.