Commons Sitting of 30 November 1911

Preamble
The House met at a Quarter before Three of the clock, Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.

MESSAGE FROM THE LORDS.
That they have agreed to—
Salford Hundred Court of Record Bill, without Amendment.
Maxwell's Divorce Bill [Lords] and Pilkington's Divorce Bill [Lords].—That they do communicate Minutes of Evidence and Proceedings taken upon the Second Reading of Maxwell's Divorce Bill [Lords], and upon the Second Reading of Pilkington's Divorce Bill [Lords], as desired by this House, and request that the same may be returned.

ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS.

  Italy and Turkey.
  Mr. MARK SYKESasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, whether any persons have been arrested in Egypt for endeavouring to join the Turkish forces in Tripoli; and, if so, will he state whether these persons were Ottoman or Egyptian subjects?
  The SECRETARY of STATE for FOREIGN AFFAIRS (Sir E. Grey): No arrests have been made.
  Mr. WEDGWOODasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he has received any account of the bombardment of Akaba, on the Egypto-Turk frontier; and whether the property of Egyptians or British subjects has suffered damage?
  Sir E. GREY: I have been informed that the bombardment took place, but have received no details. Lord Kitchener will report on this subject when local inquiries have been completed.

  China (Railway Service).
  Mr. STEWARTasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he had
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  any information as to whether the railways between Shanghai and Nanking, and Kowloon and Canton, were still running their usual service of trains?
  Sir E. GREY: I believe that trains are running between Shanghai and Nanking, and between Canton and Kowloon, but I cannot say whether the usual number are running.

  Great Britain, Russia, and Persia.
  Mr. WEDGWOODasked whether His Majesty's Government are in correspondence with the Government of the United States as to the possibility of jointly supporting in any way Mr. Morgan Shuster?
  Sir E. GREY: The answer is in the negative.
  Mr. WEDGWOOD: Has the right hon. Gentleman seen the notice in the Press this morning as to an ultimatum and indemnity being demanded from Persia, and, under these circumstances, will he support the United States if they take any action?
  Sir E. GREY: I propose to make a somewhat long statement to the House—if the House will allow me—in reply to a question by the hon. Gentleman the Member for Stirling Burghs (Mr. Ponsonby). Perhaps the hon. Gentleman will wait till then?
  Sir WILLIAM BYLESasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he had seen a manifesto of Manchester merchants, engaged or directly interested in trade with Persia, addressed to the Manchester Chamber of Commerce, alleging that the persistent hostility of Russia to the Persian Government is having a bad effect on the interests of Lancashire trade; and having regard to the readiness of the British Government to defend British trading interests all over the world, whether he would insist on both the terms and the spirit of the Anglo-Russian Convention being loyally carried out?
  Sir E. GREY: I have seen the manifesto to which the hon. Member refers. The anarchical condition of the southern provinces, which is the cause of the decline of British trade, is not due to any recent action taken by the Russian Government. As the formation of an efficient Persian gendarmerie must necessarily take some months to accomplish, His Majesty's Government decided, as the hon. Member is aware, to strengthen the Consular

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  guards in southern Persia. Assurances have been received from the Russian Government that they intend to act in accordance with the terms of the Anglo-Russian Convention.
  Mr. MORRELLasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he has received information showing that the Russian Government have demanded the dismissal of Mr. Morgan Shuster from the service of the Persian Government; whether the Persian Government have refused to comply with that demand; and whether His Majesty's Government will give their support to the Persian Government in this matter?
  Sir E. GREY: The reply to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. I have not heard that the Persian Government have as yet returned any answer to the Russian demand. The reply to the last part is in the negative.
  Mr. PONSONBYasked whether, in view of the fact that the Persian Government have yielded to the two demands of the Russian Government, any fresh demands have been formulated by the Russian Government to justify the retention of their troops in Persia?
  Sir E. GREY: I would ask leave of the House to give a rather more extended answer than perhaps would be justified by the actual question on the Paper. I would ask, too, that my answer should also include a reply to a question of which I have received private notice.
  The Russian Government have made fresh demands. It will be clear to the House that, though we are not directly concerned in the incidents that have precipitated a crisis between Russia and Persia, the effects, direct or indirect, of the action that Russia may feel herself obliged to take may be very serious in Persia. We are in communication with the Russian Government on this point, and have received assurances as to the temporary and provisional character of the steps that are being taken. As to the causes that have brought about the present situation: I have no reflection to make upon the energy and good intentions of Mr. Shuster; but his persistence in appointing British subjects to administrative posts in the north of Persia has made things impossible. We, of course, could not support it, and he has rejected any advice on the subject. The appointment of foreign subjects will always be regarded as a possible means of introducing foreign
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  influence, and if continued without consultation with British or Russian Governments will always be liable to give rise to interference or political trouble, that will be prejudicial to the independence of Persia.
  The present crisis makes it urgent to find some solution at Teheran that will avert the risk of the recurrence of incidents calculated to disturb the basis of the Anglo-Russian Agreement. It being the earnest desire of both Governments to prevent that Agreement from being impaired, I do not doubt that a solution will be found. How it can best be secured in consultation with the Russian Government is occupying the serious attention of His Majesty's Government; and I cannot make a more definite statement, though we have already been in communication with the Russian Government, and shall continue to do all in our power to promote a settlement that is in the best interests of all the three countries concerned.
  Mr. DILLON: May I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether the statement in today's "Times" is correct that the Russian Government have used the name of the British Government in delivering this ultimatum, and whether that action, if it has been taken, has been taken with the consent of His Majesty's Government?
  Sir E. GREY: I would ask the hon. Member to give me notice of that question. He will see from the answer I have already given we have expressed the opinion that the action of Mr. Shuster has made things impossible, and there ought to be consultation between the British and Russian Government before foreign subjects are appointed to the Persian Government. We certainly have expressed that opinion. How far that information has been used by the Russian Government in anything stated at Teheran I cannot say.
  Mr. PONSONBY: Has the right hon. Gentleman received any communication from His Majesty's Minister at Teheran saying whether Mr. Shuster has himself been responsible for the distribution of pamphlets which the Russian Government object to?
  Sir E. GREY: I must ask for notice of that question.
  Mr. MORRELL: May I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether the terms of the ultimatum included a demand for the payment of an indemnity for the payment of the Russian troops kept in Persia?
  Sir E. GREY: I must ask the hon. Member to give me notice.
  Mr. WEDGWOOD: Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether he had any communication from the American Government upon this point?
  Sir E. GREY: No, Sir, I have had no communication whatever from the American Government.
  Major ANSTRUTHER-GRAY: May we understand that the occupation of Persia by Russian troops is purely temporary and provisional?
  Sir E. GREY: I have already said that we have received assurances that that will be so. The answer I have already given makes it plain to the House that the situation which has arisen is one that demands serious attention on the part of both Governments, with regard to its ultimate possible consequences.
  Mr. PONSONBYasked how many Russian troops have now entered Persian territory; and to which districts have they been sent?
  Sir E. GREY: The number of Russian troops sent to Persia in connection with the recent demands is as follows: At Resht, 1,220; at Enzeli, 800.

  Morocco.
  Mr. KINGasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he can lay upon the Table all the dispatches issued from, and received at, the Foreign Office during last July relative to the Morocco question?
  Sir E. GREY: It is not proposed to take any decision as to laying any papers about Morocco while the discussions in the French and German Parliaments are proceeding, or till the French and German Governments have decided to publish papers.
  Mr. KINGasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether his attention has been called to a map published in London on 20th July last, purporting to show the regions in the Congo basin demanded by Germany from France in the course of the Morocco conversations; and whether the Foreign Office furnished to the publisher or any other person the information on which this map was drawn?
  Sir E. GREY: I saw the map at the time when it was published in July. The
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  answer to the last question is in the negative. Neither that nor any other information about the Franco-German negotiations at the time became public through the Foreign Office.
  Mr. KING: Did any communication pass between the Foreign Office and the publisher of this map relative to the publication?
  Sir E. GREY: No communication whatever passed beforehand, and I am not aware that any passed afterwards.
  Mr. WEDGWOOD: Is it not a fact that at the time this map was published Germany was offering Togoland to France in exchange, and that that part of the bargain was not mentioned?
  Sir E. GREY: I cannot make any more statements about the Franco-German negotiations than have already become public.

  Foreign Affairs (Press Information).
  Mr. KINGasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether it was usual for any newspapers or Press agencies or correspondents of certain papers to receive, officially or otherwise, information on foreign affairs either from persons engaged at the Foreign Office or at British Embassies or Legations abroad; and, if so, whether there were any regulations or instructions governing such imparting of information?
  Sir E. GREY: Certain representative newspapers and Press agencies receive any communications with regard to foreign affairs which are suitable for publication. Such information is, for the most part, confined to appointments and changes in His Majesty's Diplomatic Service. If inquiries are made at the Foreign Office with regard to specific facts, they are answered when it is possible to do so without prejudice to public or private interests. As regards His Majesty's Embassies and Legations abroad, such matters lie within the discretion of the Ambassador or Minister concerned, and I have no doubt that a similar rule to that obtaining in the Foreign Office is observed. There is no regular organisation in connection with the Foreign Office for inspiring any Press agency or newspaper in order to put forward, either officially or semi-officially, the views of His Majesty's Government with regard to foreign affairs.
  Mr. KING: Would it not be well, in order to prevent the annoyance of journalists constantly calling at the Foreign Office, to issue periodically to reputed journals a statement which would be equally available to all?
  Sir E. GREY: The advantages of any organisation of that kind are no doubt obvious to my hon. Friend who put the question, but the difficulties which might arise if any plan of the kind was carried out are obvious to anybody who has to consider the possibility of doing it.

  Diplomatic Service (Conditions of Entrance).
  Mr. LYNCHasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he will lay upon the Table of the House a White Paper, setting forth the conditions of entrance to the grade of attaché in the Diplomatic Service in this country, in the United States of America, and in France, and the rates of payment of Ambassadors in the respective countries?
  Sir E. GREY: I will lay before Parliament a Paper containing the information desired by the hon. Member as soon as I am able to obtain it.
  Mr. LYNCH: May I ask the right hon. Gentleman if in all these matters he will bear in mind the good democratic doctrine of Napoleon Buonaparte—une carrière ouverte aux talents?

  Great Britain and Germany.
  Mr. LANSBURYasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if the Government has considered, or will consider, the advisability of sending a special Ambassador to Berlin for the purpose of discussing with the German Minister for Foreign Affairs any outstanding questions and differences that may still exist between the two Governments; and also to discover if the German Government would be willing to consider the advisability of negotiating a treaty of arbitration between Great Britain and Germany?
  Sir E. GREY: There is no necessity for sending a special Ambassador to Berlin to discuss questions that can be discussed without difficulty under existing conditions both in Berlin and in London. There is already an Arbitration Treaty in force between Great Britain and Germany.
  Mr. LANSBURY: Is the Arbitration Treaty a similar one to one already under negotiation with the United States?
  Sir E. GREY: The Arbitration Treaty with Germany is one of the usual type—of a more limited character than that which is now under discussion in the United States. On a previous occasion I promised, I think, that the House should have an opportunity of discussing the more extended Arbitration Treaty with the United States when it was completed. If I did not give that promise, it was certainly my intention that the House should have the opportunity of seeing that treaty in its final form, and expressing its opinion upon it, before we embarked on negotiations of a similar kind with other countries.
  Baron de FOREST: Will the right hon. Gentleman give the House the information necessary to understand the questions that are at present in discussion between England and Germany?
  Sir E. GREY: That seems to me a question of such enormous scope that I do not very well see how an answer can be given.

  Declaration of London.
  Mr. HUNTasked whether, in view of the fact that he cannot guarantee that there is a single port in the United Kingdom which, under the Declaration of London, a foreign Power might not hold to be a base of supply for our armed forces, he will reconsider his decision and refuse to ratify the Declaration of London?
  Sir E. GREY: There would be more guarantees with the Declaration of London than without; it would therefore be undesirable to reconsider the decision.
  Mr. HUNT: May I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether, in view of the fact that we have no definite assurances from any foreign Power that they will put the same construction upon Articles 34 and 35 that he does, is he going to risk the starvation of our Fleet in time of war on an unknown decision?
  Mr. SPEAKER: Surely that is a matter for argument; the hon. Member is raising a debate.

  Irish Police.
  Sir JOHN LONSDALEasked the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland if he will state the reason for the delay in the distribution of the King's Coronation medal to the Royal Irish Constabulary and Dublin Metropolitan Police; and when it is expected that the medal will be distributed?
  The CHIEF SECRETARY for IRELAND (Mr. Birrell): There has been no avoidable delay, and the medal will be distributed as soon as it is issued by the Mint.
  Mr. MITCHELL-THOMSON: Can the right hon. Gentleman give me any indication when that is likely to be?
  Mr. BIRRELL: I would rather not.
  Sir JOHN LONSDALEasked the Chief Secretary whether he is aware that a considerable number of men of the Royal Irish Constabulary were employed on duty in the streets and suburbs of Dublin, in augmentation of the Dublin Metropolitan Police, on the occasion of His Majesty's visit to that city and of the late prolonged labour strikes there; whether the constabulary so employed participated in the grant of nine days' extra pay given to the Metropolitan Police for their duties on these occasions; and, if not, what is the reason for withholding the grant of extra pay from the constabulary?
  Mr. BIRRELL: I am aware that a number of men of the Royal Irish Constabulary were employed as stated. These men received no extra pay in respect of this work, but they were granted the usual subsistence allowances for absence from their stations on duty.
  Mr. HAYDENasked the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that a force of extra police is still maintained in the county Roscommon, notwithstanding its freedom from crime or disturbance and regardless of the repeated protests of the county council; whether he is aware that at its last meeting the county council passed a resolution renewing its protest against the unnecessary tax which this involves on the ratepayers; and whether he will communicate with the police authorities with a view of having some more attention paid to the opinions of the elected representatives of the people?
  Mr. BIRRELL: I have seen a copy of the resolution referred to. The number of extra police employed in the county of Roscommon was reduced in August last from two head constables and sixty-four men to one head constable and thirty men, and the responsible police authorities are not prepared to advise any further reduction at present.
  Mr. HAYDEN: Is it not a fact that at the Winter Assizes, now proceeding from
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  the counties of Roscommon, Leitrim, and Sligo, three of the five counties in Connaught, there is not a single case, and in view of that will he report to the police authorities that this tax should not be kept upon the people.
  Mr. BIRRELL: I will make representations again. But, of course, cases coming before the Assizes are not altogether a complete and sufficient answer to the notion that you require some extra police.
  Mr. HAYDEN: Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether there were any causes from the three counties I have named?
  Mr. BIRRELL: I have no doubt that the hon. Member is quite accurate.

  Evicted Tenants (Ireland).
  Mr. BOLANDasked the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that Patrick Mahony, Scrahan, Sneem, was gazetted for a farm in lieu of the holding formerly occupied by him on the Warden estate; and can he state when he will be provided with a new farm?
  Mr. BIRRELL: The Estates Commissioners received an application from Patrick Mahony for reinstatement in a holding formerly occupied by him on the Warden estate, and his application was noted for consideration. Mahony's former holding has been purchased by the present occupier under the Land Purchase Acts, and the Commissioners cannot interfere in the matter nor do they intend to provide him with another holding.
  Mr. BOLAND: Is the right hon. Gentleman not aware that formerly the Estates Commissioners agreed to give this man another farm in lieu of the holding he formerly occupied?
  Mr. BIRRELL: No, I did not know they made any such promise.
  Mr. O'DONNELLasked whether Mr. W. O'Neill, now of Bansha, Killorglin, was in March, 1908, considered suitable to work a holding and was promised that he would be provided with one; whether he was evicted from his holding at Clashedmond, Tralee, in 1885, for non-payment of rent; why it is that nothing has since been done for him; and whether an inspector will be sent to inquire into his case with a view to reinstating him in his former holding, which is still unoccupied?
  Mr. BIRRELL: The Estates Commissioners received an application from William O'Neill for reinstatement in a holding which he stated was formerly occupied by him on the Blennerhassett estate, county Kerry, and his name was provisionally noted or consideration in the allotment of untenanted land. He was not promised a holding as stated in the question, and on inquiry and consideration the Commissioners decided to take no action in the matter of his application. They see no reason to alter their decision.
  Mr. O'DONNELL: Is it not a fact that the inspector who made inquiries never saw the tenant at all?
  Mr. BIRRELL: I should have notice of that question.
  Mr. O'DONNELL: Would it not be only fair that an inspector making inquiries with regard to a particular tenant should see the man himself?
  Mr. BIRRELL: I cannot lay down any general rules.

  National School Teachers (Ireland).
  Mr. O'DONNELLasked why it is that special provision is made for teaching certain subjects to students in Irish training colleges while practically nothing is done for the training of teachers in Irish, which is now regarded by all Irish educationists as specially important; and whether, seeing that the great majority of schools in Ireland now require teachers with a knowledge of Irish, the training colleges will be required to prepare teachers to teach those subjects which the nation demands?
  Mr. BIRRELL: The Commissioners of National Education inform me that with the exception of the Church of Ireland Training College, Dublin, provision is made for the instruction in Irish of the King's scholars in each of the training colleges, and the Commissioners also grant aid to special colleges for the teaching of Irish. The Commissioners are endeavouring to meet the demand for teachers having a knowledge of Irish by granting aid to special colleges for the instruction of teachers in that language.

  Petty Sessions Clerk's Election, Caherciveen.
  Mr. BOLANDasked whether all the necessary formalities for the election of the Clerk of Petty Sessions at Caherciveen
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  were compiled with and that duly qualified magistrates alone took part in the election; and can he state on what grounds a new election has now been ordered?
  Mr. BIRRELL: An election for the appointment of a Petty Sessions Clerk for this district was recently held, when nine magistrates voted. Five votes were recorded for one candidate and four for the other, and the former was declared elected. Upon investigation, however, it was found that one of the votes recorded for the candidate elected was invalid, and, as a tie was thus caused, a new election was ordered.
  Mr. BOLAND: Who was the magistrate whose vote was considered invalid?
  Mr. BIRRELL: The Court of King's Bench held that where a justice is not resident in a Petty Sessions district for which the election of a Petty Sessions clerk takes place he should be a usual attendant at Petty Sessions in the district. Colonel Lockhart Ross usually resides in England, and he only attended this Petty Sessions four times in three years, and had only taken depositions in one case.
  Mr. BOLAND: Is it not a fact that Colonel Ross had made the necessary attendances when this vacancy occurred, and was qualified to vote?
  Mr. BIRRELL: The finding was that this gentleman only attended four times in three years, and did not come within the decision of the Court of King's Bench.

  Land Purchase (Ireland).
  Mr. KERR-SMILEYasked if the right hon Gentleman will state the name of the person to whom the Estates Commissioners have given Skehard house and farm, on the Pollock estate, county Galway; how much land is attached to the residence; if the new owner was a tenant suitable for an increased holding within the meaning of the Act of Parliament; and the amount of the purchase money paid or agreed to be paid to the Estates Commissioners for this property?
  Mr. BIRRELL: This house and demesne, comprising some 375 acres situate on the Pollock estate, was resold to the vendor of the estate under Section 3 of the Irish Land Act, 1903, subject to the repayment of an advance of £3,850, and the lands were vested in him in pursuance of the provisions of that Section.

  Prisons Board, Ireland (ex-Service Men).
  Colonel YATEasked if the right hon. Gentleman will explain why so small a percentage, namely, 12.25, of ex-Service men are employed under the Prisons Board, Ireland; and whether, in view of the fact that many ex-Navy and ex-Army men are well qualified for such posts as those of attendants and warders, etc., he will give instructions that the percentage of ex-Service men employed by the Board should be raised to at least 50 per cent. as soon as possible, as vacancies occur?
  Mr. BIRRELL: The General Prisons Board inform me that though the percentage named represents the proportion of ex-Service men employed in the Irish Prison Service, the number of such men appointed to vacancies during the past three years amounted to 53 per cent. of the vacancies.
  Colonel YATE: Will the proportion be maintained?
  Mr. BIRRELL: I see no reason why it should be departed from.
  Colonel YATE: Will the right hon. Gentleman give instructions to that effect?
  Mr. BIRRELL: I do not think there is any occasion to give instructions, because at the present moment things are pursuing the course which the hon. and gallant Gentleman recommends.

  Irish Agricultural Organisation Society.
  Mr. HAYDENasked the Vice-President of the Department of Agriculture (Ireland) whether he is now in a position to give any information as to the decision of the Department in regard to the application of the Irish Agricultural Organisation Society to the Development Commissioners for a grant in aid of their work; and whether he can state generally what is the position of the Department on this matter?
  The VICE-PRESIDENT of the DEPARTMENT of AGRICULTURE for IRELAND (Mr. T. W. Russell): As indicated in my reply to the hon. Member for East Wicklow on 30th October, the question of the application of the Irish Agricultural Organisation Society for a grant from the Development Fund was brought by me before the Council of Agriculture at its meeting on 16th instant. As the hon. Member is aware, the council is one of the statutory advisory bodies of the
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  Department; ninety out of 103 members were present. A resolution was proposed recommending that funds in aid of co-operative organisation in Ireland should be applied through the Irish Agricultural Organisation Society. The following amendment to this resolution was, after prolonged consideration, carried by forty-seven votes to thirty-three:—
  "That this council approves of the report made by the Department to the Development Commission regarding the application of the Irish Agricultural Organisation Society, and recommends that any money available for agricultural co-operation should be given to the Department and administered by them."
  The Department, in accordance with this recommendation by the council, hope to submit shortly for the consideration of the Development Commissioners a scheme for the carrying out by the Department of various branches of non-controversial co-operation.
  Mr. HAYDEN: Can the right hon. Gentleman give the House any indication as to the proportion of nominated to elected members present, and how they voted in the division?
  Mr. RUSSELL: There were forty-two votes for the amendment—thirty-seven elected votes and five nominated votes. With regard to the resolution, I think there were seventeen elected votes and sixteen nominated votes.
  Mr. C. BATHURST: Can the right hon. Gentleman say why he describes Sir Horace Plunkett's movement as a controversial organisation?
  Mr. RUSSELL: Yes, Sir. The definition of controversial and non-controversial co-operation in Ireland is this. We consider non-controversial co-operation to be that form which does not bring us into conflict and competition with the ordinary traders of the country.
  Mr. MILDMAY: Are they prepared to endorse the right hon. Gentleman's view that this organisation is controversial?
  Mr. RUSSELL: I can only appeal to the vote of the Council of Agriculture, which was almost entirely composed of farmers elected by the county councils. That vote, at all events, is final for the Department, and I cannot go beyond if, and if I had the desire I would not.

  Irish Butter (Exports to Great Britain).
  Mr. MOONEYasked whether the right hon. Gentleman is aware that the export

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  of Irish butter to Great Britain has steadily diminished for several years; will he say whether Irish butter occupies now the high position in the English market which it occupied for several years; if he can state the cause of the decline in quantity and quality; and what steps he proposes to take in this matter?
  Mr. RUSSELL: The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. As regards the remainder of the question I beg to refer the hon. Member to the reply given to a similar question asked by the hon. Member for East Limerick on the 14th instant.
  Mr. MOONEY: The answer to which the right hon. Gentleman refers me does not deal with my question. Is it not within the right hon. Gentleman's knowledge that the facts set out in my question are correct. Surely as the Vice-President of the Department he must have formed some opinion as to its cause.
  Mr. RUSSELL: I have already said that the figures in the first part of the question are accurate. The figures for the export of butter from Ireland for 1900 are 4,283,437 lbs., and in 1910 they had fallen to 3,584,810 lbs. Whilst the exports were diminishing at a rather alarming rate and continuously diminishing every year, the tendency of the imports has been upwards, and they have increased by 120,670 lbs. in five years.
  Mr. JOHN REDMOND: Can the right hon. Gentleman, from his experience in the Department, give any reason for this diminution in the exports?
  Mr. RUSSELL: Yes, there are plain reasons. The first is that we have no system in Ireland of winter dairy farming and trade is practically shut down four months in the year. In the second place there is a still more staple reason. Unfortunately, the creamery system has departed from the original conception of its founders, and now we have imported butter which is blended in the creameries of Ireland and sent over to the English markets, and the English markets will not have it. I hope, by the permission of the Prime Minister, to introduce a short Bill next Session on this subject which will not be contentious and which has now received the support of the butter industry.
  Mr. KILBRIDE: Will the right hon. Gentleman say if the importation of margarine is on the increase both in Ireland
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  and in England, and how much of it is being sold as Irish butter?
  Mr. RUSSELL: I am glad to say that the figures for margarine are pretty steady, and show no advance.
  Sir W. BYLES: Is there any impropriety in eating margarine?

  Colonial Conference Commission.
  Mr. HADDOCKasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether any steps have been taken in regard to the Commission agreed upon by the Colonial Conference to inquire as to what extent, if any, the trade between each of the different parts has been affected by existing legislation in each, either beneficially or otherwise, and by what methods, consistent with the existing fiscal policy of each part, the trade of each part with the others may be improved and extended?
  The UNDER-SECRETARY of STATE for WAR (Colonel Seely): I would refer the hon. Member to the answer given by the Secretary of State for the Colonies on the 8th instant.

  NATIONAL INSURANCE BILL.

    APPOINTMENTS UNDER PART II.
    Mr. HOAREasked how many umpires and insurance officers it is proposed to appoint under Part II. of the National Insurance Bill; which of the appointments will be made after consultation with the Civil Service Commissioners; whether they will all be full-time appointments; and what will be the salaries attached to them?
    The PRESIDENT of the BOARD of TRADE (Mr. Buxton): There will only be one umpire, but power will be taken to appoint a deputy to act in his unavoidable absence. The umpire will be assisted by a staff selected by himself. I cannot at present state the precise number of insurance officers that will be appointed to act in various districts, but I anticipate the total number of officers of various grades exercising the statutory powers of insurance officers will be between twenty and thirty. The great bulk of the appointments under Part II. (other than those of agents in rural districts and members of Courts of Referees) will be full-time appointments, made on the recommendation of the Civil Service Commissioners. I am not yet in a position to make any statement as to salaries.
    Mr. HOARE: Will the right hon. Gentleman give the House the name of the umpire?
    Mr. BUXTON: I should explain there is an Amendment down in consequence of a discussion in Grand Committee, making the position of the umpire, instead of an appointment by the Board of Trade, an appointment by His Majesty; and I am not, therefore, in a position to give the name until, if that Amendment is accepted, I have had an opportunity of submitting it to His Majesty.

    DOMESTIC SERVANTS.
    Mr. LEIF JONES: May I ask the Attorney-General a question of which I have given him private notice, namely, whether there is any truth in the statement that has been widely circulated to the effect that the Law Officers of the Crown have expressed the opinion that if the Insurance Bill becomes law in its present shape, domestic servants will be liable to be dismissed at a moment's notice without wages, and that the Bill gives the mistress the right to deduct the 7s. 6d. sick pay from the servant's wages?
    Sir RUFUS ISAACS: My attention has been called to the article in the "Daily Mail" of to-day headed in large type, "No Month's Notice: Instant Dismissal without Wages." It is quite untrue that the right of a domestic servant to a month's notice or a month's wages in lieu of notice is affected by the Insurance Bill. It is quite untrue that a mistress will be at liberty to discharge a servant on the spot without wages as soon as the servant becomes entitled to the seven and sixpence a week. It is quite untrue that the Law Officers have had to give anxious consideration to such a suggestion, of which I have never heard until my attention was called to it in the "Daily Mail" of this morning. The servants' rights in this respect to the customary month's notice or month's wages will be the same after the Bill has become law as before. It is quite untrue that the Bill gives a mistress the right to deduct the seven and sixpence per week from the servant's wages, or that the Law Officers have come to any such conclusion. Every statement of fact in the article referred to is untrue and is absolutely devoid of foundation. Every statement of law is, in our opinion, as Law Officers of the Crown, incorrect. I trust that the newspaper which has such a wide circulation and has given publicity to such
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    serious mis-statements will give equal publicity to this correction.
    Mr. CLYNES: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that Members of the House have this morning received from the Domestic Workers' Union four questions relating to the Bill; and may I ask whether this union or its representatives had an opportunity of putting these questions to the Chancellor of the Exchequer on Tuesday last; and whether they availed themselves of that opportunity?
    Mr. SPEAKER: The Attorney-General has no special knowledge of that matter.

  Mercantile Marine (Watching Coasts).
  Mr. KINGasked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is now in a position to inform the House what has been done to secure the watching of coasts in the interests of our mercantile marine?
  Mr. BUXTON: With the concurrence of the Treasury the Board of Trade have decided to erect huts for coast watching purposes, with telephonic communication, at sixty-three places, and to employ, where necessary, suitable men to act as watchers. The necessary steps for completing these arrangements are being taken; and further proposals are being carefully considered. I may add that the General Post Office in co-operation with the Board of Trade have of late carried out many improvements in the coast communication telephone system.
  Mr. KING: How much of the expense is allowed by the Treasury in this connection?
  Mr. BUXTON: There is authority to erect these huts, but I have not got the exact figures.

  Nottingham Lace Trade.
  Mr. CLYNESasked whether the right hon. Gentleman's attention has been called to the dispute at present taking place in the finishing processes of the machine-made lace trade at Nottingham, whereby numbers of home workers are being denied employment by certain employers and middlewomen because of refusal to contract out of the minimum rate of wages equivalent of 2¾d. an hour fixed by the Trade Board; and whether, seeing that such action on the part of these employers and middlewomen is prejudicial to other employers who are loyally paying the

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  rates fixed by the Board, he will say what action, if any, he proposes to take in the matter?
  Mr. BUXTON: The circumstances mentioned in my hon. Friend's question have been brought to my attention. The minimum rates of wages fixed by the Trade Board cannot be made obligatory by the Board of Trade until the expiration of at least six months from the date on which they were fixed, and until the rates are made obligatory there is no power under the Trade Boards Act to prevent employers paying lower rates to any workers who agree in writing to accept them.
  Mr. CLYNES: Might I draw the attention of the right hon. Gentleman to that point in the question which says these home workers are being denied employment by certain employers and middle-women because of their refusal to contract out of the minimum rate of wages fixed by the Trade Boards?
  Mr. BUXTON: For six months we have no power of interference.
  Mr. CLYNES: Does the right hon. Gentleman think the Act requires Amendment in that respect?
  Mr. BUXTON: The six months would be over long before we could get any Amendment.

  Lloyd's Underwriters.
  Sir HAROLD ELVERSTONasked whether any life assurance business is now transacted by Lloyd's underwriters; and, if so, whether the deposits of £2,000 required by the Assurance Companies Act of 1909 have been made, and statements showing the character and extent of the business transacted have been deposited with the Board of Trade?
  Mr. BUXTON: No deposits have been made and no accounts have been furnished by any Lloyd's underwriters in respect of life assurance business. So far as I am aware, no life assurance business in the ordinary sense is now transacted by Lloyd's underwriters, and, although policies insuring against losses which might arise indirectly owing to death may possibly have been underwritten from time to time, I have no information as to the terms of any such policies. If my hon. Friend is able to furnish me with any such policy, I shall be glad to give the matter my careful consideration.
  Sir H. ELVERSTONasked the amount of the deposits, if any, furnished in accordance with Schedule 8 (B) and (C) 2 (3), of the Assurance Companies Act, 1909, by Lloyd's underwriters as security for the due fulfilment of their fire and accident insurance contracts; also the amount of the security furnished in the form of guarantees; and whether any of the guarantees which may be furnished as an alternative to a deposit are given by persons who are not members of Lloyd's Underwriters' Association; and, if so, to what extent?
  Mr. BUXTON: The amount of the deposits furnished in accordance with Schedule 8 (B) and (C) 2 (b) of the Assurance Companies Act, 1909, by Lloyd's underwriters as security under claims in connection with fire and accident and other non-marine business is £228,250; the amount of the security furnished in accordance with the provisions referred to in the form of guarantees is £2,841,428, and of this amount guarantees to the extent of £353,918 have been furnished by guarantors who are not members of Lloyd's.

  Goods Imported into India.
  Major ARCHER-SHEEasked the value of goods imported into India from the United Kingdom and Germany, respectively, during the last year for which statistics are available?
  Mr. BUXTON: The total value of merchandise (including Government stores) imported into British India from the United Kingdom in the year ended March 31st, 1911, was £55,458,000, the corresponding imports from Germany being £3,438,000.
  Major ARCHER-SHEE: Is it not the fact there is no distinction in the returns between the country of origin and shipment, and that therefore a large quantity of German goods which are exported from British ports are wrongly described as British goods in India?
  Mr. BUXTON: Perhaps the hon. Member will give me notice of that question.
  Major ARCHER-SHEEasked the President of the Board of Trade whether he will consider the advisability of appointing Trade Commissioners for India?
  Mr. BUXTON: I shall be glad to consider any information in the possession of the hon. Member tending to show the advisability of such an appointment; and would, if necessary, take the advice of the

  579
  Advisory Committee on Commercial Intelligence and of my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for India on the subject.

  Egypt.
  Major ARCHER-SHEEasked the President of the Board of Trade whether he will consider the advisability of appointing a Trade Commissioner for Egypt, in view of the fact that the principal information of any commercial value can only be gained from French reports?
  Mr. BUXTON: As there is already an efficient British Consular service in Egypt whose duties in respect of assistance to British trade are similar to those of His Majesty's Trade Commissioners and Correspondents in the Dominions, I do not propose to make an appointment of the kind suggested.

  Sea Encroachment (Northam Burrows).
  Mr. STEWARTasked the President of the Board of Trade whether any satisfactory settlement has yet been arrived at towards preserving Northam Burrows from encroachment by the sea by prohibiting the removal of pebbles from the foreshore between Westward Ho and Hartland Point; and, if not, will he now order a public inquiry to be held on the spot?
  Mr. BUXTON: An officer of the Board of Trade held a conference locally with representatives of the two district councils on 14th June last, and as a result advised the Board that, for the present at least, a limited amount of removal might be permitted, provided that arrangements could be made for the proper control of such removal. The Board are at present endeavouring to arrive at such an arrangement.

  Franchise Reform Bill.
  Mr. HAROLD SMITHasked the Prime Minister whether he proposes to proceed with the Franchise Reform Bill through its Parliamentary stages before carrying out his undertaking to introduce legislation for the reconstitution of the Second Chamber upon a popular basis?
  The PRIME MINISTER (Mr. Asquith): We hope, as I have said, to proceed with the first mentioned Bill next year. There would obviously not be room or time in that Session for the legislation referred to in the second part of the question.
  Mr. H. SMITH: I beg to give notice I shall call attention to this matter at a convenient opportunity.

  Censorship of Plays.
  Mr. ROBERT HARCOURTasked the Prime Minister whether the appointment by the Lord Chamberlain of Mr. Charles Brookfield as Assistant Examiner of Plays was made after consultation with His Majesty's Government; and whether, inter alia, in view of the character of the evidence given before the Joint Committee as to Mr. Brookfield's own plays, he will, pending legislation, see that this appointment is cancelled?
  Sir GODFREY BARINGasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department what considerations have actuated the Lord Chamberlain in appointing Mr. Charles Brookfield to the post of Joint Examiner of Plays; and what salary it is proposed to attach to this new office?
  The SECRETARY of STATE for the HOME DEPARTMENT (Mr. McKenna): The Prime Minister has asked me to answer this question, and I will reply at the same time to the question (No. 60 on the Paper) standing in the name of the hon. Member for Barnstaple. Mr. Brookfield was appointed Joint Examiner of Plays by the Lord Chamberlain in the ordinary exercise of his powers without consultation with His Majesty's Government. The amount of Mr. Brookfield's remuneration is determined by the Lord Chamberlain, and is paid partly out of the Civil List and partly out of fees. The Lord Chamberlain has been good enough to communicate to me that the considerations which moved him in making the appointment were the special qualifications which fin his judgment Mr. Brookfield possesses, by training and experience, to execute the duties of the post. In view of the erroneous statements that have been made in connection with the appointment, it is right for me to point out that the Examiners of Plays are not censors, but that the duty of censorship is imposed by Statute on the Lord Chamberlain himself, who has recently acted upon the advice of an advisory board. The functions of the examiners are confined to the reading of plays and reporting to the Lord Chamberlain any matters about which there can be any doubt. The Lord Chamberlain further advises me that he is aware of the evidence given before the Select Committee of 1909 as to one of Mr. Brookfield's

  581
  own plays, but that in his judgment this evidence raises no presumption that Mr. Brookfield is disqualified for the efficient performance of his duties.
  Mr. R. HARCOURT: May I ask whether it is not the case that the examiners of plays do not pass plays at their uncontrolled discretion without reference to the Lord Chamberlain?
  Mr. McKENNA: I assume any play which was not reported upon by the Examiners would, in the ordinary course, be passed by the Lord Chamberlain, but the Lord Chamberlain would still reserve his right to veto any play himself.
  Mr. R. HARCOURT: Arising out of that answer, may I ask whether the Lord Chamberlain does, in fact, read such plays, or whether it would not be the case that any play submitted by Mr. Brookfield, as author, would be passed by Mr. Brookfield, as Examiner, and then performed?
  Mr. McKENNA: No, I imagine if Mr. Brookfield were himself to write a play and submit it to the Censor, the Lord Chamberlain himself would read that play with great profit and amusement.
  Mr. CLYNES: Can the right hon. Gentleman state what are the uses of this office in view of the plays that do find their way on to the stage?
  Mr. SPEAKER: That is rather an argumentative question.
  Mr. BECKETT: Has the right hon. Gentleman's attention been drawn to an article by Mr. Brookfield in this month's "National Review," and, if so, whether the views expressed therein may be taken to be identical with those of the Lord Chamberlain?
  Mr. McKENNA: Yes, my attention has been called to the article. I am not aware whether the Lord Chamberlain has read the article or not.
  Mr. R. HARCOURT: I beg to give notice, if I am not precluded by the hon. Member for Warrington (Mr. Harold Smith), that I shall call attention to the subject on the rising of the House.
  Mr. ROBERT HARCOURTasked how many members of the Advisory Committee on stage plays appointed by the Lord Chamberlain have since resigned; and, if so, whether they have been replaced, and, if so, by whom?
  Mr. McKENNA: The Prime Minister has asked me to reply to this question. One member of the Advisory Board has resigned since its formation, and he has not been replaced.
  Mr. R. HARCOURT: Is the right hon. Gentleman prepared to give the name?
  Mr. McKENNA: No, Sir.
  Mr. LYNCHasked the Home Secretary what steps have been taken to give effect to the recommendations of the special committee which sat to consider the state of the drama in this country; and whether means exist within his power of checking the alleged tendency to the encouragement of plays of a low intellectual and moral character at the expense of drama opening up new vistas of thought in social, political, and ethical matters?
  Mr. McKENNA: An Advisory Board has been appointed to assist the Lord Chamberlain in dealing with the licensing of plays. Steps have not been taken to give effect to the recommendations of the Joint Committee as regards licensing. The Secretary of State has himself no powers in the matter. The Lord Chamberlain has been entrusted by Statute with the duty of dealing with this subject, and he possesses adequate means of checking the production of any undesirable plays. The principles upon which this power is exercised were explained to the recent Joint Committee; while they involve the rejection of immoral plays they do not aim at the exclusion of novelty of idea or treatment.
  Mr. LYNCH: Is the right hon. Gentle man aware that the existing tendency in this Department is to repress the development of the higher forms of art by a system of pachydermatous ignorance and inspissated Pharisaism——
  Mr. SPEAKER: The hon. Member is now making a speech.

  Labour in Coal Mines.
  Sir HILDRED CARLILEasked the Prime Minister whether he is aware that 1,049,407 persons were employed in 1910, or an increase of 6.2 per cent. since the passing of the Eight Hours (Mines) Act to procure 1 per cent. more coal than was obtained by 987,813 persons in 1908 prior to the passing of that measure; and whether he is aware that the limitation of hours

  583
  imposed by the Act has decreased the coal-getting capacity of each individual miner on the average by 4.8 per cent., resulting, as miners are paid by piece-work, in a similar reduction in the wages earned by the men; and, seeing that, as a consequence, the miners are agitating for a minimum wage, for which many of them are resolved to strike, whether he can see his way to take steps to bring about the repeal of that measure?
  Mr. McKENNA: The Prime Minister has asked me to answer this question. I accept the figures given by the hon. Member in the first part of his question, as they are correctly taken from answers which I recently gave him in this House. The calculation referred to in the second part of the question is, I believe, approximately accurate. I am not prepared to accept the conclusion drawn by the hon. Member in the third part of the question, the answer to which is in the negative. For other conclusions on the same subject I would refer him to the second part of the Chief Inspector's Report, which has just been issued.
  Mr. W. E. HARVEY: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that during the Debate on the Eight Hours Bill for miners statements were made in this House that if the Bill became law the price of coal would be increased from 3s. to 5s. per ton, and further, if he was aware that since the Bill did become law in September, 1911, prices were 8d. per ton less than before the passing of the Eight Hours Bill into law?
  Mr. McKENNA: I believe some statement of that kind was made, but the facts have proved that it was without adequate foundation.
  Sir A. MARKHAM: Does the right hon. Gentleman accept the suggestion in the question as to the decrease in the coal-getting capacity of each individual?
  Mr. McKENNA: I said that the calculation was approximately accurate, but that I did not agree with the conclusions drawn from it.

  Foreign Affairs Debate.
  Mr. MORRELLasked the Prime Minister when the Debate on Foreign Affairs will be continued?
  Mr. PONSONBYalso put a question to the same effect.
  The PRIME MINISTER: I must ask my hon. Friends to await the statement which I shall make presently.

  British Interests in China.
  Lord CHARLES BERESFORDasked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether the gravity of the situation is increasing in China; whether British interests predominate over any other country; and, if so, whether the Admiralty intend to strengthen the squadron in those waters?
  The FIRST LORD of the ADMIRALTY (Mr. Churchill): Two cruisers have been ordered from Australia to join the China Squadron temporarily, and will reach China waters shortly. This step has been taken as a measure of precaution in view of possible developments. I must ask to be excused from making any general statement as to affairs in China.

  Royal Navy (Control Positions).
  Lord C. BERESFORDasked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether he is aware that some modification is necessary in the control positions of His Majesty's ships "Orion," "Conqueror," "Thunderer," "Lion," "Princess Royal," "Colossus," and "Hercules"; whether he is aware that the spotter is stationed abaft the fore funnel and almost over it, and that the spotter is liable to be suffocated; whether the heat from the funnel often produces a temperature of 220 degrees at the locality where the spotter is stationed; and, if so, whether any proposals will be made to remedy this state of affairs?
  Mr. CHURCHILL: Inconvenience has been experienced in the control positions in the ships named in the Noble Lord's question, and modifications are now under consideration.

  Panama Canal and Port Royal.
  Lord C. BERESFORDasked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether, in view of the approaching completion of the Panama Canal, the Admiralty consider that Jamaica is destined to have a greater strategical value than it has hitherto possessed; and, if so, whether it is intended to develop the resources of Port Royal and place it in the condition of a first-class naval base for the cruisers protecting our trade routes through the canal?
  Mr. CHURCHILL: The Noble Lord may rest assured that the Admiralty is devoting

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  close attention to the changes which are likely to follow on the opening of the Panama Canal, so far as they affect naval interests. I am, however, advised that no change of policy is necessary at the present moment.

  Secondary School Regulations.
  Mr. JOYNSON-HICKSasked the President of the Board of Education whether he is aware of the effect of the regulations for secondary schools promulgated by his predecessor in 1909 upon many secondary schools belonging to the Church of England and the Roman Catholic Church; and whether he can hold out any hopes of reconsidering these regulations?
  The PRESIDENT of the BOARD of EDUCATION (Mr. J. A. Pease): I have received communications on the subject referred to in the first part of the question. I am afraid that I cannot undertake to consider any alteration of the existing conditions. The hon. Member's suggestion raises large issues which cannot properly be entered upon by question and answer across the House.
  Lord EDMUND TALBOT: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that these regulations are considered by the Catholic community in this country to be not only grossly unfair and unjust, but amounting to persecution?
  Mr. PEASE: I have had representations of that character submitted to my Department.
  Mr. JOYNSON-HICKS: May I add that the same remarks apply to the Church of England.

  Board of Education (Permanent Secretary).
  Mr. KINGasked the President of the Board of Education whether, before filling the office of Permanent Secretary to the Board of Education, he will make inquiries as to whether the person proposed for this office is likely to have the confidence of all parties concerned?
  Mr. PEASE: No appointment will be made except after the fullest consideration of all the circumstances, and I may add that there is no foundation for any suggestion appearing in the Press that any particular individual is about to be appointed.

  Ightham School, Kent.
  Mr. KELLAWAYasked the President of the Board of Education whether the provisions of the minute of the Education Department of 13th August, 1875, to the effect that all arrangements for transfer of school premises for a term of years must provide that the education authority shall retain possession of the premises at the end of the term until the then value of any works executed with the aid of a loan shall have been repaid, was included in the arrangement for transfer of the school premises at Ightham, Kent, in 1876; whether the minute also provides that the amount to be repaid may be ascertained by a surveyor appointed by the Education Department; and what is the present value of all the work executed with the aid of loans on the school premises at Ightham, Kent?
  Mr. PEASE: The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. As regards the second part of the question, power was reserved to the Education Department to appoint a surveyor in the event of disagreement between the school board and the trustees. I understand that the local education authority and the trustees have agreed upon a valuer, but I am not aware whether any valuation of the present value of the works executed with the aid of loans has yet been made.
  Mr. KELLAWAY: Have any representations yet been received from the Education Committee of the Kent County Council?
  Mr. PEASE: In connection with the valuation of the property?
  Mr. KELLAWAY: Yes.
  Mr. PEASE: I do not think there have been any except those I have referred to.
  Mr. KELLAWAYasked the total amount expended out of loans on the school buildings at Ightham, Kent, from the date when the school was transferred to the school board; whether the refusal of the trustees to renew the lease of the school buildings to the Kent Education Committee is an attempt not only to recover the buildings, but also to secure by indirect means a retransfer of the school itself; and whether the Board of Education will withhold its consent to this transaction until the whole of the money expended out of loans has been repaid, as provided by Section 24 of the Act of 1870 relating to the retransfer of schools?
  Mr. PEASE: The Education Department sanctioned the following loans: On 5th January, 1877, £363 2s., and on 3rd July, 1882, £417. In the latter case thirty years were specified as the period of repayment, and I understand that on 31st March, 1910, a sum of £39 only was outstanding on this loan. This may now have been paid off. The trustees of the school premises gave notice on 22nd April, 1911, under Section 8 of the Education Act, 1902, of their intention to determine the tenancy of the premises by the local education authority and to provide in the premises a new voluntary school. If the council school is continued in new premises the school, as distinguished from the premises in which it is conducted, will apparently not be retransferred, under Section 24 of the Act of 1870. I will, of course, use any powers which I possess to protect any financial interest which the local education authority have in the premises as successors of the school board.

  Club Licensing Statistics.
  Mr. GRETTONasked the Home Secretary if, in view of the fact that full licensing statistics are annually obtained from the clerks to Petty Sessional divisions and information as to registered clubs also in those areas, he will take steps to have the total numbers of members of such registered clubs, grouped in areas, given in the next annual licensing Returns?
  Mr. McKENNA: The hon. Member's suggestion is covered by the answer which I gave him last Tuesday, when I stated that after repeated consideration it had been decided that the figures in question were not of sufficient value to repay the labour and cost of collecting and publishing them.
  Sir A. MARKHAM: Will the right hon. Gentleman in future, when statistics are being prepared, give the number of old barns and similar buildings which have been converted into drinking clubs?
  Mr. McKENNA: I do not think that the material exists for compiling the figures asked for.
  Mr. GRETTON: If I can convince the right hon. Gentleman on the point, will he give a return stating the facts?
  Mr. McKENNA: If the hon. Gentleman will speak to me privately on the matter I shall be happy to meet him.

  Special Constables.
  Sir HILDRED CARLILEasked the Home Secretary whether he can state the total number of special constables enrolled in accordance with the suggestion of the Home Office in each of the large boroughs of the country?
  Mr. McKENNA: I would refer the hon. Member to the answer which I gave on the 9th November to the hon. Member for the Enfield Division of Middlesex.

  Labour Adviser (Home Office).
  Mr. LANSBURYasked the Home Secretary if it is proposed to abolish the post of Labour Adviser to the Home Office when Mr. D. Shackleton vacates the position to take up his duties as an Insurance Commissioner?
  Mr. McKENNA: The answer is in the negative. The work done by Mr. Shackleton at the Home Office has been so valuable that it would be greatly to the public interest to appoint a successor to him in order that his work may be continued.
  Mr. JOYNSON-HICKS: Was not Mr. Shackleton appointed at a larger salary than usual, and will the salary be reduced to the customary level?
  Mr. McKENNA: I think Mr. Shackleton received the maximum rate at once, but only on the ordinary scale. I must ask for notice of the question.
  Mr. LANE-FOX: Can the right hon. Gentleman announce who is his successor?
  Mr. McKENNA: No, Sir.

  Isle of Man (Constitution).
  Mr. POINTERasked the Home Secretary if he has considered the Report of the Commission on the Constitution of the Isle of Man; and if he proposes to take action in the matter?
  Mr. McKENNA: The Report is under consideration. The questions which it raises are of great importance to the island, and I cannot commit myself to any immediate decision.

  Telephone Rates.
  Mr. KINGasked the Postmaster-General whether rates will entirely and immediately cease to be paid on telephone undertakings now in the hands of the National Telephone Company when they are taken

  589
  over by the Post Office; and whether he will say what was the annual amount paid to rating authorities by the National Telephone Company?
  The ASSISTANT POSTMASTER-GENERAL (Captain Norton): On the transfer of the National Telephone Company's undertaking to the State the payment of rates, as such, will cease; but, as I have already stated in reply to earlier questions, the Government is prepared to make some contribution in lieu of rates on the buildings and plant to be acquired. The exact basis of the contribution has not yet been settled. I am in communication with the National Telephone Company respecting the amount paid by them to rating authorities, but the figures are not yet available.
  Mr. DUNCAN: Will the contribution be less or more than at present?
  Captain NORTON: As I have said, the matter is being considered.

  Central Telegraph Office (ex-Soldiers).
  Major ARCHER-SHEEasked the Postmaster-General whether he has recently informed the ex-soldier telegraphists in the Central Telegraph Office that he is unable to give them on appointment more than the highest age pay fixed by the Select Parliamentary Committee, which is that received by a telegraphist of twenty-one years of age; whether the introduction of soldiers as telegraphists was contemplated by the Select Parliamentary Committee; whether the average age of the twenty-five ex-soldier telegraphists concerned is thirty-one and their average weekly wage 27s.; whether he is aware that his predecessor resented the statement that these men were being recruited on the ground of cheapness; and whether he will approach the Treasury with a view to increasing their wages to the level of that received by other telegraphists of the same age in that office?
  Captain NORTON: The facts are substantially as stated by the hon. Member. The wages of the telegraphists rise by annual increments of not less than 2s. to a maximum of 65s. The question of the employment of ex-soldiers as telegraphists did not come before the Select Committee, but the Committee recommended that persons entering the class of telegraphists at or over the age of twenty-one should receive the pay prescribed for twenty-one
  590
  years of age. If ex-soldier telegraphists were treated exceptionally in this respect it would be urged that similar exceptions should be made in the cases of ex-soldier postmen and porters, and a very large issue would be raised, inasmuch as presently nearly half the postmen will be drawn from that class.
  Major ARCHER-SHEE: Why should that issue not be raised, considering that a memorial signed by over two hundred Members of Parliament has quite recently been presented to the Treasury on the subject?
  Captain NORTON: Because the Postmaster-General considers that, on the whole, it is better to leave the ex-soldiers the option of applying for these posts even if their age may approach thirty.

  Telephone Calls (Payment).
  Mr. WATTasked the Postmaster-General whether he is aware that his Department, from their Renfield Street office, issue demand notes to telephone subscribers asking for immediate payment of sums alleged to be due on telephone calls; that when particulars are asked for by the subscribers none are given, but the demand for payment repeated accompanied with the threat to suspend facilities; and, if so, will he say whether it is to be part of the practice of his Department to refuse to give particulars of a claim, and to suspend facilities no matter how small the claim may be?
  Captain NORTON: It is the practice to ask once a month for the payment of sums due for telephone calls and to suspend facilities for originating calls if payment is unreasonably withheld after repeated applications. Particulars of trunk calls are furnished on application in three months; but the details of local calls could not be recorded and given without disproportionate expense, which would seriously increase the cost of telephone service to subscribers. As no doubt the hon. Member is aware, such calls are usually registered at large exchanges by means of meters, the working of which has been proved by public investigation, both in this country and in the United States to be as accurate as any system of record. Great trouble is taken by special checks and otherwise to satisfy any reasonable doubts on the part of subscribers as to the correctness of the amounts charged.

  Overseers of Telegraph Messengers (Allowances).
  Mr. FRED HALLasked the Postmaster-General whether an overseer of telegraph messengers receives, when first appointed, a weekly wage of 20s. and, in addition, two suits of uniform per annum, a set of leggings and a cap every two years, and an overcoat every third year, but that on his rising to the maximum pay of 33s. per week, when he attains the grade of second-class assistant inspector, the two-yearly and three-yearly perquisites are withdrawn; if so, will he say what is the reason for their withdrawal; and does the same rule prevail in the case of head and assistant head postmen?
  Captain NORTON: The officers in question belong to a redundant class in the London postal service. They are on a scale rising from 20s. to 30s. a week, and do not pass on to the established class of assistant-inspectors, the maximum of which is 33s. When first employed they received uniform as stated, except that leggings were supplied every three years and caps every year. As a result of the recommendations of a committee which considered in detail the question of the supply of uniform, they will not in future receive leggings, but the rest of the uniform will continue to be supplied as formerly, except that caps and overcoats will only be supplied to those officers who are employed regularly on outdoor duties. The same rule has been introduced in the case of head and assistant head-postmen.

  Fair-Wages Clause (Regent's Park).
  Mr. TYSON WILSONasked the hon. Member for Southampton, as representing the First Commissioner of Works, if he is aware that Mr. John Abrahams, contractor for keeping clean the southern part of the road encircling Regent's Park, is paying the men employed on the work 18s. per week, while the men employed by the Office of Works to keep the northern part of the road clean are paid 27s., and other men doing similar work in the immediate vicinity are receiving 28s. per week; and whether he will take steps to compel this contractor to comply with the Fair-Wages Resolution?
  The TREASURER of the HOUSEHOLD (Mr. Dudley Ward): The First Commissioner has no information as regards the rate of wages paid for cleaning the
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  southern part of the road encircling Regent's Park; for this service he is not responsible.

  Deputy-Registrarship, Ardwick, Manchester.
  Mr. SUTTONasked the President of the Local Government Board whether he is aware that Mrs. Ashford, who for six and a-half years has been deputy-registrar for the Ardwick district of Manchester, and subsequently interim-registrar, has been suspended and dismissed from her employment after being duly elected as registrar for the Gorton district, where she has taken up her residence and prepared to take up her work, in consequence of statements communicated at the last moment to the guardians affecting her character and conduct, which have not been and cannot be proved; and whether, taking into consideration the character Mrs. Ashford has always borne and the services rendered which have recently been testified to by competent witnesses and confirmed by the report of the Registrar-General's inspection, he will inquire further into the matter with the object of having Mrs. Ashford reinstated in the position to which she was elected by the guardians and for which she has every qualification and fitness?
  The PRESIDENT of the LOCAL GOVERNMENT BOARD (Mr. Burns): In my reply to the hon. Member's question of the 22nd instant, I explained what had occurred in this matter. I have no power to require the guardians to appoint Mrs. Ashford in place of the person they have now selected, and there would be no advantage in making the inquiry suggested.

  Vaccination (Conscientious Objections).
  Mr. ALBERT SMITHasked whether, after parents in Bolton (Lancs) have sent in declarations of conscientious objection to vaccination they receive from the vaccination department of the Bolton Union literature advocating pro-vaccinist views, including a leaflet entitled, "Why you should have your child vaccinated"; whether this is done by the officers under the instructions or with the cognisance or approval of the Board; and, if not, whether the Board will put a stop to the practice?
  Mr. BURNS: I am making inquiries of the guardians on the subject of the hon. Member's question.

  Appointment of Magistrates (Carmarthen).
  Mr. HINDSasked the Attorney-General whether he is in a position to furnish the names of the persons constituting the advisory committee for the selection of magistrates in the county of Carmarthen?
  The ATTORNEY-GENERAL (Sir Rufus Isaacs): The advisory committee for Carmarthenshire is, as already announced, to consist of three members chosen by the county council and three by the justices at Quarter Sessions. The county council representatives are Mr. David Evans, Mr. John Williams Gwynne-Hughes, and Mr. John Lloyd. The three other gentlemen will be chosen by the justices at the Epiphany Quarter Sessions in January.

  Old Age Pensions.
  Sir HILDRED CARLILEasked the names of the six towns, with a population exceeding 2,500, having the highest and the lowest percentages of persons in receipt of old age pensions?
  The FINANCIAL SECRETARY to the TREASURY (Mr. McKinnon Wood): No information is available as to the number of old age pensioners in any particular towns, except as regards the City of London, the Metropolitan Boroughs, the County Boroughs in England, Wales, and Ireland, and the Burghs with a population exceeding 50,000 in Scotland. Particulars as to these will be found on pages 82–86 of the Second Report of the Commissioners of Customs and Excise (Cd. 5827).
  Sir H. CARLILE: Will the right hon. Gentleman allow a Return to be made of these towns?
  Mr. McKINNON WOOD: If the hon. Member will communicate with me privately I will consider the matter. So far as I know we have not got the information.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
Mr. BONAR LAW: May I ask the Prime Minister whether he can give us any information as to the course of business?
The PRIME MINISTER: Before I deal with next week, perhaps I had better deal generally with the time before us. I will first state the Bills we must pass before the Session comes to an end. This list includes some Bills that have already passed this House, and are now in the other House. In addition to the National
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Insurance Bill there are the Finance Bill—[HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."]—that will relieve the apprehensions of hon. Gentlemen opposite—the Coal Mines Bill, the Naval Prize Bill, the Merchant Shipping Bill, the Burgh Police (Scotland) Amendment Bill, the Resident Magistrates (Belfast) Bill, and, I hope, the Second Peace Conference (Conventions) Bill, which have all got to go to the House of Lords after they have passed this House. Further, we hope to pass into law the following Bills which have already passed the House of Lords: the Lunacy Bill Maritime Conventions Bill, Smallholdings and Allotments Bill, and, I trust, the Appellate Jurisdiction Bill, which was promised at the Imperial Conference to the representatives of the Dominions, and in addition the Military Manœuvres Bill, which is at present under discussion in the Lords, and will be here shortly.
There is one other measure which will require rather special treatment—the Shops Bill. A great deal of time and labour has been spent in Committee on this Bill which we think it a pity should be wholly wasted; and, in view of the length of the Bill and the controversial character of some of its provisions, it will clearly not be possible to pass the whole of it. But there are two portions—the compulsory weekly half-holiday and the provision of meal hours—which I understand are practically agreed to in all parts of the House. These two portions we shall proceed with, if we are assured they can be passed with the consent of the House in the course of a few hours. The First Lord of the Admiralty will give a further explanation on that point if it be desired.
The limited time at our disposal makes it impossible to proceed with the other Government Bills on the Paper. Therefore we shall drop the measures which I am about to enumerate. First, the Trade-Unions (No. 2) Bill, which I much regret the exigencies of time will not allow us in this Session to proceed further with. Agricultural Credit and Insurance Society Bill, Health Visitors Bill, Dublin Police Bill, Education (Schools and Continuation Class Attendance) Bill, Aliens (Prevention of Crime) Bill, Public Health (Acquisition of Water) Bill, Dublin Parliamentary Revising Bill, Pilotage Bill, Expenses of Aid to Police Bill, and County Courts Bill. These are all dropped. We have received representations from unofficial Members

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about Bills in which they are interested. Unfortunately we find on inquiry that none of these can be regarded as entirely non-controversial, therefore, I am very sorry we cannot find time to give facilities for them.
We hope, also, after we have passed our necessary measures, to find time in the week after next for the continuation of the Debate on Foreign Policy, and for the discussion of the Motion on the appointment of magistrates. We hope all the necessary work which this House has to undertake, which I have now outlined, will be completed by Friday, 15th December. The length of the Session after that will depend on the progress made by the other House with the measures which are before them, and their reconsideration here. Next week's business will be as follows:—
On Monday, we shall complete the Report stage of the Insurance Bill.
On Tuesday, we hope to conclude the Mines Bill and the Naval Prize Bill.
On Wednesday, the Third Reading of the Insurance Bill will be taken.
On Thursday, the Committee stage of the Finance Bill will be taken.
On Friday, we shall take the Shops Bill if we can be assured that those parts which we hope to pass can be concluded on that day.
I may add, for the general convenience of the House, and in reply to numerous inquiries, that our present anticipation is that the next Session will begin on Tuesday, 13th February.
Mr. BONAR LAW: As regards the Shops Bill, I should like to ask whether it would not be possible to issue a White Paper showing exactly what it is proposed to do.
The PRIME MINISTER: That is a most reasonable request.
Mr. RAMSAY MACDONALD: Am I to understand that the Trade Unions (No. 2) Bill is only meant to be withdrawn for this Session, and that the right hon. Gentleman anticipates its re-introduction next Session?
The PRIME MINISTER: I hope so.
Mr. HARRY LAWSON: May I ask the First Lord of the Admiralty when we shall have the proposed Amendments to the Shops Bill in our hands?
Mr. CHURCHILL: I am rather doubtful whether the word "Amendments" really covers the case, because there is no doubt whatever that it has become necessary, if legislation is to go forward at all on the subject, to drop the greater part of the Bill. The whole of the Sunday Clauses will be dropped, and the whole of the attempt to regulate the daily hours of labour of shop assistants must be dropped. It is not my fault. I can assure hon. Gentlemen below the Gangway that it is with the very deepest regret that I have felt myself compelled to submit to what is undoubtedly the loss of a portion of the measure to which great importance will be attached in many quarters, but we can, I think, secure certain parts of the Bill which will be a real benefit to the large class who are interested in it. There is first of all the compulsory half-holiday for shop assistants and shopkeepers, and that gives equal relief to the shop assistant and the shopkeeper. It was put in in the Grand Committee, I think, unanimously, and the Clause, I believe, is found to meet all the different views which have been expressed. That affects at least two millions of people. Then there is the question of the meal time, and I trust the House will consider the bearing which that has, not merely on the comfort and convenience of that great body of people whose case Parliament has repeatedly endeavoured to deal with, but also on their health. There are some provisions which will depend entirely on the progress of business on the day when we discuss the Bill connected with the improved facilities for voluntary early closing. I do not propose to go on with these unless the House is in the mood to dispose of them by agreement.
Mr. HARRY LAWSON: They are not in the Bill now.
Mr. CHURCHILL: Yes, they are in the Bill now. Efforts will be made to work up the early closing movement and give a proper impulse to it in the different cities throughout the country. I do not propose to press that at all unless I shall get a practically unanimous decision. I am having, by the assistance and courtesy of the Home Secretary, two Bills prepared, one the Bill as it left Grand Committee with everything that is to be dropped cut out, and the second showing what is left—the actual provisions which I trust the House will assent to.
Mr. BONAR LAW: When will they be printed?
Mr. CHURCHILL: They are being printed as quickly as they can possibly be. They will be ready early next week.
Mr. KEIR HARDIE: Has the Prime Minister's attention been called to the notice which appears in the Parliamentary Papers this morning dealing with the use of troops during the recent railway dispute, and can a day be given for the discussion of that matter, and is that still an open question in his mind?
The PRIME MINISTER: I am afraid, within the limits of time which I have indicated, it will not be possible, but it can be raised on the Address next year.
Mr. LOUGH: May I remind the right hon. Gentleman of the promise he made to consider representations which would be made to him with regard to giving a little time to the Brussels Sugar Convention? Does he still see his way to consider representations which may be made?
The PRIME MINISTER: Yes, I will consider any representations which may be made, but I have promised a day for the continuation of the Debate on Foreign Policy, and I hope the question may be raised then.
Mr. LOUGH: It could not be raised satisfactorily. We do not want to give an adverse decision on Foreign Policy. This is quite a separate point.
4.0 P.M.
Mr. GRETTON: May I ask the Prime Minister how much time he proposes to give this Session to the consideration of the Finance Bill?
The PRIME MINISTER: I hope that will be a matter of arrangement between both sides of the House.
Mr. HOARE: May I ask the Prime Minister whether his attention has been called to a small measure entitled Employment of Children Act (1903) Amendment Bill, in regard to which there is a general feeling of agreement, and whether he will reconsider his decision with the view of including it in the Bills mentioned as those to be proceeded with this Session?
Mr. T. E. HARVEY: I am sure many Members of the House would welcome the passing of that Bill, which would not take up a great deal of time.
The PRIME MINISTER: So far as I am concerned, I am, and, indeed, I may say the Government, are in hearty sympathy with the Bill; but I am afraid it cannot be treated as non-controversial, because there is always a vigilant spectator of our proceedings in the hon. Baronet the Member for the City of London (Sir Frederick Banbury).
Mr. JOYNSON-HICKS: May I ask whether the right hon. Gentleman is aware that the Lunacy Bill is a non-controversial measure, and whether he will give time to that?
The PRIME MINISTER: I do not think that is so in the least, but we shall see.
Sir W. BYLES: May I ask the First Lord of the Admiralty in regard to the Shops Bill whether the main object of the measure was not to limit the hours of shop assistants; whether the pressure from the outside was not entirely or mainly directed to that object; whether there was really any serious opposition to the limitation to the week of sixty hours which was passed in Committee; and whether he cannot possibly hope to enact that portion of the Bill on the Friday that is to be allotted to it?
Mr. POINTER: Before the right hon. Gentleman replies, may I ask whether any measure can be called non-controversial in the eyes of the Labour party when the main provisions are to be left out?
Mr. CHURCHILL: We are governed by limitations of time. It is open to any hon. Gentleman who has reflected on the statement which the Prime Minister has made to see how rigid these limitations are at this period of the Session. I have done the best I could under the circumstances to save what I am sure will be of real advantage. I hope hon. Gentlemen who share with me the regret at the dropping of the sixty hours' week limitation will not for that reason withdraw their help and support in trying to secure what is equally, or certainly not less, desired. After all, my hon. Friend (Sir W. Byles) did not give us much help in Committee.
Sir W. BYLES: On the sixty hours' week I gave all the assistance I could.
Mr. SNOWDEN: May I ask the Prime Minister why the Government cannot adopt the same course with this Bill as they have adopted with the Insurance Bill and closure all discussion on Report?
Mr. FORSTER: May I ask the Prime Minister if he proposes to move the Motion that stands in his name as to "Business of the House (National Insurance Bill) (Allocation of Time)"?
The PRIME MINISTER: Yes, Sir. The Chancellor of the Exchequer will move it.
Mr. FORSTER: When?
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER (Mr. Lloyd George): Immediately after the adjournment of the Debate on the Insurance Bill to-night.
Mr. FORSTER: Are we to proceed to discuss the reallocation of time Motion at that hour?
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: I do not think it will be necessary to go into the small hours of the morning. We generally adjourn the discussion on the Insurance Bill about half-past ten. The Motion proposes a very small re-allocation of time which has been pressed upon us from every quarter of the House. It is for the convenience of the whole House that we are making the proposal.
Mr. HAROLD SMITH: I wish to ask the right hon. Gentleman if, as a matter of fact, we should find ourselves discussing Amendments to the Insurance Bill up to the small hours of the morning, he will then persist in moving the Motion at that time.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: I think as it is the view of a very considerable number of Members of the House that we should make sure of a discussion upon Schedule II. we should proceed with the Motion at whatever time the discussion commences.

NATIONAL INSURANCE BILL.
As amended (in Committee of the Whole House and in the Standing Committee), further considered.—[Third Allotted Day.]
Mr. WORTHINGTON-EVANS: I beg to move that the following new Clause be read a second time:——
Transfer of an Insured Person to a Superannuation Fund Established by Act of Parliament.
If a person ceases to be insured under this Part of this Act by reason of entering such employment as is mentioned in paragraphs (b), (c), or (d) of part 2 of the First Schedule to this Act, the transfer value of
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such person or, in the case of a deposit contributor, the amount standing to his credit in the Post Office fund shall be paid to the superannuation fund established by Act of Parliament in connection with that employment, and shall be applied for the benefit of such person.
Owing to some small alterations made in the Bill since I put this Clause down it would probably have been better that some slight Amendments should be made in the new Clause, but I propose to move it as it stands, and if the Government can see their way to accept it, these small Amendments can be put in afterwards. I would remind the House that that transfer value is provided under Clause 30 for all members of societies who move from one society to another, and that under Clause 31 there is a provision for giving transfer value to those members of societies who become emigrants. It is a very poor and bad provision, but so far as it goes it does give some rights to the members of friendly societies who become emigrants. In Clause 40 there are provisions to give transfer value to members of societies who become deposit contributors, and also to deposit contributors who become members of friendly societies. The object of my new Clause is to give similar transfer value to members of friendly societies who become attached to superannuation funds under the circumstances mentioned in paragraphs (b), (c), and (d) of the second part of the First Schedule. I would remind the House that the circumstances of paragraph (b) are that an insured person may obtain employment under the Crown and so become exempt from compulsory insurance under the Act. From that moment, if a member of a friendly society, he would already have acquired transfer value, and unless this Clause, or some such Clause, is inserted the amount of the transfer value he has acquired by his previous contributions will be forfeited, and he will not be entitled to any benefit from them.
Under paragraph (c) of the same Schedule a clerk or other salaried official in the service of a railway company or a statutory company, if previously a member of a friendly society, would suffer the same loss. While he would have contributed, he would have acquired transfer value which would be lost as soon as he took employment which exempted him from the benefits of the scheme. That would have been the position of teachers in elementary schools, but in view of the alteration made in the Clause proposed by the

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Government yesterday, it is no longer necessary to make provision for them, because that Clause has made provision for them. Therefore, I think it would be better if my new Clause, instead of saying, "(b), (c) or (d)," should read only "(b) or (c)," leaving out "(d)," which refers to teachers who are already provided for. It would be better also to leave out the words "by Act of Parliament," because they are not now necessary, as the superannuation fund provision has been altered since I put this Clause down. I do not think the House requires any argument in support of the Clause. It is only necessary to call attention to the fact that unless such a Clause is put in a certain number who are compelled to come into the insurance scheme will have the value of their contributions forfeited. If the Clause is put in then that value will go on in the form of insurance in the employment to which they have become attached, and which has been declared to be equivalent, and it will go to their benefit in the new form and give them something more than they would otherwise have—something which they have already paid for.
Mr. CASSEL: I beg to second the Motion. The best reason for asking the Government to accept the Clause is the fact that they have already accepted one-third of it. That being so, there is no reason why they should not accept the other two-thirds as well. In the case of the teacher they have recognised that he may have been compulsorily insured and may have been compulsorily put outside the scheme. To meet that obvious hardship they have allowed him to get the benefit of his transfer value. How does that differ from the case of those who come under paragraphs (b) and (c)? You may have the case of a railway employéwho is employed at first as a salaried official, and then comes to be employed under paragraph (c). That is exactly the case of the elementary school teacher. After-wards he comes within the exception. Why should not his case be met in some way as the case of the teacher is met? Take the case of a person previously in some employment in which he is compulsorily insured and then he is employed by a local authority. Why should the contributions he has made be forfeited when he enters employment to which these conditions do not apply?
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL (Sir Rufus Isaacs): The teacher's case was a special
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case, and it had to be provided for under the special circumstances in which he is placed. Under the Clause which was passed they have the right of election. The teacher can become a voluntary contributor, and the actuarial value of his contributions would be transferred to the Board of Education, and there dealt with when he became a teacher who was included in the Superannuation Act of 1898. But we are dealing here with two totally different classes. I understand that the hon. Member does not move in respect of paragraph (d), and that he confines the proposed new Clause to paragraphs (b) and (c). With respect to (b), you are dealing with employment under the Crown or local authorities, and the condition is that the sickness and disablement benefits shall be equivalent to those in the Bill before there shall be exemption. Apply this Clause to a case of that character, and I do not see how the hon. Member proposes to work it out. Suppose there was no superannuation fund.
Mr. CASSEL: There must be.
Sir RUFUS ISAACS: Under the Clause there must be, because it says it must be carried to the superannuation fund.
Mr. CASSEL: Provided for it.
Sir RUFUS ISAACS: I am dealing with (b), which says that the sickness and disablement benefit must be equivalent to those provided in the Bill before there shall be exemption, but I do not understand how that would work under this Clause. It would not apply at all. There is no superannuation fund to which it could be carried. This provides for a transfer to the superannuation fund to be applied to the benefit of these persons. If you are going to deal with it in that way you must go further. You are dealing in those circumstances with the case of a man who may be in and out of such employment. Suppose that, having been an employed contributor a certain number of years not in the Crown service, he is then transferred to the Crown and is exempt under (b), the conditions of exemption apply, and therefore he is not under the Bill. Under the scheme of the hon. Member for Colchester he would then take the transfer value if there was a superannuation fund to which it could be transferred, and the whole of the transfer value would be applied to his credit. Suppose he was a Crown servant only for a short time—a year or two—and he then

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enters some other employment, is he to take with him the transfer value which was transferred to the superannuation fund under the Clause of the hon. Gentleman? If not, he is in this difficulty: if he wishes to re-enter the insurance fund a question may arise with regard to the reserve value. I do not follow how the hon. Gentleman thinks that this Clause will work, or what will happen if there is a transfer from Crown service. That would apply equally to local authorities, the whole condition being that the terms of the employment are such as will secure in respect of sickness and disablement benefits not on the whole less favourable than the corresponding benefits. It is quite clear that he would never be under a superannuation fund at all for that purpose. There must be some scheme which would give him some sickness and disablement benefit which would be equivalent in value to the scheme under the Bill. That would apply to local authorities. When you come to deal with the railway companies we make provision with regard to them. There are provisions with respect to the superannuation fund. Again the same difficulty arises there. How are you to provide, as the Clause does not provide, for what is to happen when a man has been a servant of a company which has a superannuation fund and then leaves it? It is a question which will have to be dealt with I quite appreciate, but what the hon. Gentleman wishes to do is in some way to bring this scheme into harmony with what has to be done with regard to teachers. It seems to me that the cases are quite distinct, because you have got the provisions with respect to teachers under the Act of 1898. I do not follow how the hon. Gentleman thinks that this scheme will work out if we pass this Amendment.
Mr. FORSTER: I confess I am rather alarmed at the tenour of the speech of the Attorney-General. I may have misunderstood the position entirely, but I thought when we were dealing with the question of servants of the Crown that we had specially made provision for these people, and that, having passed from the service of the Crown into ordinary employment, they could go on as members of the Army or Navy fund, or that in case of their joining societies they would receive their transfer value. Does not that situation arise in connection with this Clause?
Sir RUFUS ISAACS: No.
Mr. FORSTER: I thought it was entirely analagous to it.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: I think that the hon. Gentleman is dealing with a totally different matter. He is quite accurate when he comes to deal with the question of the Army and Navy fund in the case in which there is no adequate provision or provision equivalent to that under the Bill. But this Amendment of the hon. Gentleman deals with the class coming in under Sub-sections (b) and (c), where it is found that there is ample provision. That is a very different proposition from that about the Army and Navy fund, to which he has referred.
Mr. FORSTER: The Chancellor of the Exchequer has confirmed me in my view that this is strictly analogous: (b) and (c) are concerned with persons who are employed by the Crown or by private employers, the terms of whose employment gives them benefits in respect of sickness and disablement which are, at any rate, as good as the benefits given by this Act. Suppose a man leaves the employment in which he is engaged under (b) and (c) and joins the society, he carries no transfer value. Is that so?
Sir RUFUS ISAACS: He is exempt.
Mr. FORSTER: Then there is no provision in the Act to have a transfer value. I raised the point in connection with the gas workers, who have their benefit, and are anxious to continue it, because they realised the difficulties that would arise when they passed from their present employment and joined a society if no transfer value were provided. They were willing to increase voluntarily their contributions in order to provide themselves with the transfer value in case they joined a society when they obtain some other employment. I thought when persons under (b) and (c) left their present employment they were taking their transfer value with them. I thought that was provided for under the regulations which would have to be made by the Insurance Commissioners, and that they would have to be satisfied that the transfer value was forthcoming. I am bound to say that the boon conferred on these persons exempt under (b) and (c) is not as large as I was disposed to think it. I am not at all sure whether there is any probability or prospect of their ever leaving the employment in which they are engaged unless the

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transfer value is provided for them. They will not like to take advantage of the provision under Schedule 1. With regard to the Clause of my hon. Friend, I quite see the difficulty if no transfer values are to be provided in the case of persons under (b) and (c) when they leave (b) and (c) and enter a society, and I am bound to say that there are difficulties when the movement is in a contrary direction.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER (Mr. Lloyd George): I think there is a misapprehension of the position, and that it is best to clear up any doubt which may exist. There are two classes of servants of the Crown. First of all, the persons who get under the terms of their employment a provision made for them by the Crown for sickness and disablement, and that provision must be on the whole not less favourable than the corresponding benefits under this Bill. So when the hon. Gentleman says that they are not as large as he thought they were, they must be as large as the benefits under the Bill, as otherwise there will be no exemption.
Mr. FORSTER: The benefits; I was talking of the advantages.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: The advantages. Everything must be taken into account. Then comes the second class, the class with no provision for sickness and disablement. With the second class, they have to pay their own contributions, and the Crown pays the employers. That means that the society gets the benefit of the contributions of the workmen and the contributions of the Crown during the whole period of service under the Crown. When the man passes on to other work and to other employers there is no difficulty at all in the case. Let us take the case which the hon. Member for Colchester put, that of a man who has got either a pension or who gets an allowance in case of disablement, which is, on the whole, equal to the benefit provided in the Bill. He said, suppose a person leaves the service of the Crown, what about the transfer? My answer is this: If you are going to pay the transfer money, in the meantime the society has received no payment at all in respect of the time of the man's service under the Crown. The man has given the best time of his life, the time when he is free from sickness, to the service of the Crown. He may give up that service at a period of life when his health is not so good. Is the society to
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be forced to take him on at that time? The man leaves the service of the Crown because he is dismissed, or because he is incapable of discharging the work, or because he finds work elsewhere. If it is because he is incapable on the ground of ill-health, then that would be very unfair to the society. He would be sure to come on the fund, though the society would be compelled to take him after having lost the whole of his contributions during the best time of his life. That is very unfair.
During the whole period of his service under the Crown the Crown has its full liability. It is not a partial liability, and it is not a liability in respect of time. The Crown undertakes the whole prospective liability which would otherwise fall on the friendly society, and the Crown would be paying twice over. I do not care what the particular work is—take any work that is undertaken by any man. A man, first of all, may go on under a private employer and then, at twenty or twenty-one years of age becomes a servant of the Crown. From twenty up to thirty-six, or even forty-six he may be in the service of the-Crown. In that time the society gets nothing of his contributions. At the age of forty-six his health is liable not to be so good, and is it fair or right that the society should take him at that age, having lost the contributions during the best part of his life. I think that would be particularly unfair, both to the society and the Crown, which has undertaken the whole prospective liability during that period. Then the question of insurance comes in here, and the hon. Gentleman asks what about the teacher. That is a totally different case. There you have no insurance by a friendly society or trade union, because the risk is entirely the risk of the municipality. But by this proposal you are forcing the friendly society or trade union to take over a man who may be forty-five or fifty years of age, and who has given the best of his life to the service of the Crown, obtaining compensation for it. The remedy is entirely in the hands of the man himself. If he joins a friendly society he joins, undoubtedly, as one in arrears; and if he chooses to wipe these arrears out in his friendly society he can put himself in exactly the same position as he was in before. It is not fair to give him a sort of double insurance when other people get a single one.
Mr. AMERY: I think there is a certain amount of misunderstanding about this, and I would like to urge on the two right

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hon. Gentlemen the point of view of my hon. Friend and myself. The real point, I think, is that employment under the Crown ought to be treated as if it were entering another approved society offering equivalent benefits, though with an entirely different system as to contributions. All we want to do is to see that a man when he goes into such an employment and out of it again should be treated exactly, neither better nor worse, as if he were leaving an approved society in Devonshire for an approved society in, say, Yorkshire, and then back again to Devonshire. If the Crown receives the transfer value when a man enters its service, then there is no unfairness to the Crown in its paying out the transfer value to him when he leaves the service of the Crown. I would like to add at the end of the Clause proposed by my hon. Friend this further sentence,
"And if such person leaves such employment under paragraphs (b) and (c), and enters ordinary employment, his transfer value shall be paid to such approved society as he may join, or to the Post Office."
There is no question of forcing any society in the least. The only point is, if he does go to a society he should have such transfer value as he would be entitled to if he were leaving one approved society and joining another society. If he left the State service because of indifferent health, he might very possibly, even with the transfer value, not be able to get into any society, but, at any rate, if he goes into the Post Office fund, then in addition to such little benefit as the Post Office fund can offer him, he, at any rate, would have the transfer value.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: I cannot quite follow the hon. Member. Supposing a man belongs to the Labourers Union and he becomes a postman, the hon. Member proposes that the Labourers Union should pay the transfer value to the Crown the moment he passes from the Labourers Union and becomes a servant of the Crown.
Mr. AMERY: If the same man left the Labourers Union to join the Hearts of Oak the Labourers Union would certainly have to pay the transfer value. All I am asking is that the man should be in the same position as the member of an approved society. The Attorney-General said there would be difficulty in the way, because
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there may be no superannuation fund at all, and the benefits may be paid out of current revenue. It makes no difference how the accounts of the fund, or whether any accounts are kept, as long as the employer gets the transfer value on the man's entering his employment, and pays it out to him, according to his age, when he leaves. What is asked for under the Clause, with the addition which I think is necessary, only carries out the principle of the Bill that, under whatever employment a man may be, he shall be provided for on transfer from one employment to another, and that he should not be prejudiced.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: It is not for the Chancellor of the Exchequer to object to the payment of the transfer value, because there are many more people passing from private employment into the service of the Crown than there are people who leave the service of the Crown to pass into private employment. Therefore, the friendly societies, the trade unions, and other societies would have to pay the transfer value to the Crown, which would enable us to improve our superannuation for the Crown service at the expense of those societies.
Mr. BOOTH: I am glad the Chancellor of the Exchequer has put that point on behalf of the friendly societies, and I think we must accept his view. I cannot see where there is the slightest consideration for friendly societies or trade unions in this proposal if it is looked at for a single moment. The transfers under this proposed Clause would resolve themselves into a stream of money passing from the workmen's societies into the Crown funds. Nobody supposes that that would help the working of the Bill.
Mr. WORTHINGTON-EVANS: It is only by indulgence of the House that I can speak again. Surely the House wants to arrive at absolute and complete fairness in this matter, and make it possible for a man to freely pass from one employment to another, whether it is from society to society, or Government employment to civil employment, or vice versâ; and whether it has the effect of asking the trade union or friendly society to give a transfer in one case or not does not make any difference to the argument I submit to the House. The same transfer value would be given back if my hon. Friend's addition to the Amendment were in order. It is said that they do not want the transfer value back.

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There are dozens and dozens and hundreds of men who are in the Government or municipal service for short periods of perhaps one or two years, and if they go from those services, or from the service of a railway company or big statutory company, into ordinary civilian employment, what is the position as it stands now? The man who goes into the Government or municipal or railway or statutory company employment may have been a member of a friendly society for perhaps a period of ten years, and then becomes under this Clause exempted from the provisions of the Act. During that ten years he has piled up a transfer value of several pounds, and if he went on in the society he would be entitled to the benefits of the Act. The moment he becomes exempted that transfer value is forfeited. He gets no benefit from it whatever. That is the forfeit I am trying to prevent. What I want is that, whether it is in the case of a Government employé or a municipal employé or a company employé, that they shall have that transfer value while in the particular service. If he goes out of the service I want that transfer value made up to the proper value of his age and given him back again, so that he can join a friendly society or trades union when he has left any of those services. That is absolutely fair to both sides if it can be done. We tried the other half of the Amendment when we were dealing with part 2 of Schedule 1, and the reason why I did not put it in this particular Amendment is because the Government have already refused to accept it in Committee. I willingly and gladly acknowledge my hon. Friend's addendum to my new Clause is an improvement, because it brings in the mutual effect of giving transfer value backwards and forwards. The only sort of defence that the Government made to what is really confiscating the contribution of a large—[HON. MEMBERS: "No, no."]—confiscating the contributions of a large number of men, and the only sort of excuse that they give is that it would be unfair to the society and unfair to the Crown, who have, under the exemption, to look after the man with equivalent benefits, but those equivalent benefits are only benefits equivalent to the disablement and sickness benefit of the Bill.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: The hon. Gentleman does not suggest that it is confiscating to the Crown the money that is given to the societies.
Mr. WORTHINGTON-EVANS: I never said confiscated to the Crown, but I said confiscated so far as the individual is concerned. You do confiscate the value of these contributions which are left in the society and he no longer has any benefit from them. Some hon. Member said that that is insurance. That is not insurance, because a specific portion has been put on one side for the very purpose of a transfer value. The rest is insurance, but not that particular sum which I am dealing with now, and which has been accumulated for the purpose of giving a transfer value. What this Bill is doing is confiscating, I do not say to the Government, I do not say to the Treasury——
Mr. BOOTH: On a point of Order. We of course are always anxious to hear the hon. Member, and we give him leave to speak, but he is now introducing an argument about confiscation to which we have no right to reply.
Mr. SPEAKER: If the hon. Member allows another hon. Member leave to speak again he must submit to hear arguments with which he does not agree. He should not give leave only to hear arguments with which he is in agreement.
Mr. BOOTH: The hon. Member had the chance to put his case and he is now introducing totally new matter which we had no chance of dealing with when we spoke.
Mr. SPEAKER: I think the freedom with which leave for second speech is accorded is much too great. I would like to see the old system retained, but we are discussing this Bill under very great difficulties and there must be a certain amount of latitude.
Mr. WORTHINGTON-EVANS: I was answering comments which were made and that particular observation was in reply to a former observation, and I am not sure that it was not the hon. Member himself who made it. The Chancellor of the Exchequer said that this proposal would be unfair to the society and that a difference as between the transfer value from one society to another society was that the man would still be paying contributions to the second society, and that when he was exempted he would not be paying. I submit that when he is exempted he is in fact paying contributions. If he is getting these benefits as part of his employment he is getting that taken into account in his wages, and he is just as surely paying for

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those benefits in reduced wages as if he has a higher wage with the amount of the contribution exacted from him. Economically he is in exactly the same position as the man who goes on contributing throughout his life, but he is not getting the same benefits as the man who transfers from one society to another. I submit to the House that the Government have made no reply whatever to the justice of this claim. They have made the almost pettifogging reply, and this was from the Attorney-General, that there may not be a superannuation fund. If there is not in that case the transfer value will not be given, but where there is such a fund to which it can be paid it is no answer to say that in some cases there will not be any fund. There has been no answer on the merits, and I trust that the Government even now may see their way to do an act of justice.
Mr. BARNES: I desire to add a very few observations from a very practical and it may be from a selfish point of view. I happen to have been secretary for a good many years and am still a member of an organisation which would be directly affected by this Amendment. I belong to the Society of Engineers, many thousands of whom are in the Government service, some non-established and others established. I should say that probably about half of them work for a few years on the unestablished list and pass on to the established list. The Amendment seeks to get for those men transfer values. If it were the fact that the men were constantly passing out of Government employment and then back again, that is to say, if the Government employment or to the local authorities was a sort of sieve through a which the men might pass, then there might be justification for this.
Mr. AMERY: Or a statutory company.
Mr. BARNES: Or a statutory or railway company. If any person gets into either one or the other, he knows he has got a soft thing and he will stick to it. I look at the Amendment, with the out-of-world sort of argument, which has been put forward, from the point of view of plain common sense matter-of-fact everyday experience, and my experience is that when a man gets on to the establishment in the Government employment, and, though not to the same extent, but to a large extent, when he gets into the employment of a local authority, or when he gets on to the staff of a railway
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company, and comes in under any of the schemes enumerated in the exemption, then in every single one of those the man is fixed for life to the extent of about 99 per cent. of the cases. Therefore the Amendment has no justification in actual everyday experience. It is based on considerations which are far removed from everyday life, and for that reason I hope it will not be put to a Division, because that would be a waste of the time of the House. From the point of view of the society of which I was secretary, and of which I am still a member, and the members of whom pass from one grade to the other, we should have to pay in some thousands of cases the transfer value really to the Government and not to the man, while the man has to be placed on a scheme which has to be certified as being as favourable to him as the benefits provided under the Bill.
Mr. WORTHINGTON-EVANS: Only as to sickness and disablement.
Mr. BARNES: Show me how it would be transferred to the man. Even if it was transferred it would simply mean taking money from the society and transfering it for the benefit of the Government.
Mr. AMERY: Perhaps, by leave of the House——[HON. MEMBERS: "No, no."]
Lord HUGH CECIL: The hon. Members refuse to allow an hon. Member who has already spoken to do so again. They cannot refuse leave to me, and we can certainly refuse leave to hon. Members opposite. It is a singularly discourteous proceeding, against which an immediate protest should be made. The Government will not be allowed leave again——
Sir RUFUS ISAACS: We gave the hon. Member leave a few moments ago.
Lord HUGH CECIL: The hon. Member for Blackfriars (Mr. Barnes), speaking with the knowledge that he possesses on these questions, said, "that there was no importance in this matter, because, as a matter of fact, no one ever was transferred whoever got into Government employment or into the employment of a statutory company, including railways. That is a very remarkable statement, because it leads us to the conclusion that employment in those great companies, including railways, is so enviable a lot that anyone who has ever got it will not give it up. How is that consistent with what the

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hon. Member and his Friends have been saying about the condition of the railways. At any rate, we find that there is a great deal of discontent in the service, and hon. Members——
Mr. BARNES: My observation did not apply in the sense in which the Noble Lord takes it.
Mr. SPEAKER: I think it is very undesirable to introduce this extraneous matter.
Lord HUGH CECIL: I will not pursue the matter, and I only wanted to draw attention to what seems to me an obvious comment on the statement.
Mr. G. LOCKER-LAMPSON: I am sorry the hon. Member was not allowed to speak, because he has got an extremely good suggestion, which, perhaps, I may put. The suggestion is if the Government are going to render an insured person's transfer value liable to confiscation on leaving a society would it not be possible to allow the man to keep that transfer value in the society, allowing it to mount up so that if he ever returns to that society he may be enabled to make use of it again.
Major WILLOUGHBYmade some observations which were inaudible.
5.0 P.M.
Mr. POINTER: Judging by the remarks which have been made, it might appear that those who voted against the new Clause would in some way be voting against the interests of the workers in the railway companies, and the Noble Lord thought it rather inconsistent with the policy on these benches. It is important to notice that this refers rather to salaried officials and clerks, and it directly says so in the Clause under consideration. It is only right that we should have a clear idea of what we are dealing with, in order that no votes may be cast under a misapprehension. We are not anxious by rejecting the Clause to do any harm to any of these people who work on the railways at low salaries; but with regard to the clerks and salaried officials, it is quite true that in very few instances do they leave the service of the railway company when once they have entered it.
Lord ROBERT CECIL: I hope the Government will give an answer to the suggestion put forward by my hon. Friend. It is only courteous that they should do so. If we were not proceeding under the
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guillotine we could move the adjournment of the Debate, but that course is not open to us now.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: What is the suggestion?
Mr. AMERY: May I repeat it? If the Government do not accept this Clause, will they allow a man on leaving a society to enter an exempted employment to have his transfer value retained in his name on the books of the society, getting interest, or even not getting interest, so that if by any chance he should leave the exempted service and want to be again insured, he could enter the society, not at a disadvantage, but with his reserve value?
Sir RUFUS ISAACS: I am quite sure that anybody who has been taking part in these Debates will acquit me of any discourtesy. I have never objected to anybody getting up a second time when it has become necessary in the course of the Debate to make another speech. I make that observation because I was very surprised at what fell from the Noble Lord. I do not think he was present when the hon. Member for Colchester (Mr. Worthington-Evans) made his speech. It was something which the hon. Member then said that led to the question being raised about which Mr. Speaker made an observation to the effect that it would be better if there were fewer of these second speeches on Report. It was only because some of my hon. Friends would not be entitled to reply to a new point put forward by the hon. Member that the question was raised.
Lord HUGH CECIL: I did not for a moment mean to say that there was any discourtesy on the part of the Attorney-General. He has always received every suggestion most courteously. But I do think that if facilities for second speeches are refused by one side, the aggrieved side has only one remedy.
Sir RUFUS ISAACS: I was sure it was a misunderstanding on the Noble Lord's part. It is hardly open to hon. Members to complain of discourtesy on our part when the only reason we do not rise to reply is, I will not say the threat, but the observation of the Noble Lord that Members of the Government would not be allowed to make any reply. With regard to the suggestion of the hon. Member for South Birmingham (Mr. Amery), I understood him to ask whether, supposing a man leaves an approved society and goes

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into one of the exempted classes, the Government will allow the transfer value which he has built up with that approved society to be used for his benefit should he wish to return to the approved society and again enter insurance. I do not think there will be any difficulty in regard to that. Provision is made for it to this extent. Under the Bill, supposing he has left the society, and is no longer an insured person, he is then in one of the exempted classes. After a time he returns to his approved society, again enters insurance, and is a contributor once more. Assuming that that takes place, everything must depend on his age. If he is a person of considerable age, and has been out of insurance for some time, the contribution which he makes would not be enough to give him even the minimum benefit of 5s. The point has been made quite clear in the earlier Clauses. Notwithstanding that his contributions would not buy him the minimum benefit, we allow him the minimum benefit under the Bill, whatever his age may be. He never gets less than 5s. a week benefit.
Mr. AMERY: That is if the society accepts him.
Sir RUFUS ISAACS: If the society accepts him, of course. But I am speaking of a man going back to the same society. He will go on contributing for a time, and there may come a time when it suits him to link up the new insurance with the original insurance. There comes a period at which the contributions he has been making bring him below the twenty-five per cent. of arrears on the average. When that happens, and the arrears amount to less than thirteen weeks per annum on the average, it would suit him to get back to the original insurance, because he will then get higher benefits. That we provide for under the Bill. We give the man the option of doing it in Clause 12. If that happens, he gets all the advantages of going back to his society. If he enters a new society, there is already in the approved society a certain fund which has been built up by the transfer values of members. Those values can be used to make up the minimum benefits to which this new entrant or returned entrant is entitled, so that he would get a greater benefit than that to which his contribution would entitle him. I think that what we have done practically meets what the hon. Member suggests.
Question, "That the Clause be read a second time," put, and negatived.
Mr. CASSEL: I beg to move that the following new Clause be read a second time:—
Power for Societies Carrying on Business under this Act to Register under the Friendly Societies Act, 1896.
Any society for the purpose of carrying on business under this Act either alone or together with any purpose mentioned in Section eight, Sub-section (1), of the Friendly Societies Act, 1896, may, after the passing of this Act, be registered as a friendly society under the Friendly Societies Act, 1896, notwithstanding that the contributions under this Act are not voluntary.
As I understand the Government intend to accept this Clause, I will only briefly indicate the effect it is intended to produce. The Friendly Societies Act provides that a society registered under that Act must have voluntary contributions, so that in regard to any society registered after the passing of the Act intending to do business under this Act, the question might well be raised as to whether the contributions under this Act were voluntary. There is a very serious doubt whether the compulsory contributions under this Act would be held to be voluntary within the meaning of the Friendly Societies Act. Rather than leave that question as a legal conundrum to be solved hereafter, it would be better to make it plain in the Bill, because it will be a matter of great importance, affecting all societies intending to register after the passing of this Bill. I beg to move.
Mr. BARNES: I beg to second the Motion, because I have had some considerable experience in the administration of societies which will come under the Act. There are many activities covered by the 1896 Act, and I should like it to be made perfectly clear that those activities will be covered by this Act also.
Sir RUFUS ISAACS: We discussed this question yesterday, when I agreed that there was at least room for doubt as to whether the Friendly Societies Act would apply, and, therefore, I thought it would be better that we should not leave the question to be discussed hereafter, but should make it quite plain by accepting the proposed Clause. We have already had our attention upon this point, and if the hon. Member had not put down a

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Clause we should have had to put down words to meet it. The proposed new Clause, however, meets the point very well, and I accept it.
Proposed new Clause read a second time, and added to the Bill.
Mr. CASSEL: I beg to move that the following new Clause be read a second time:—
Acts of Parliament to apply to Approved Societies and Sections.
Except in so far as may be inconsistent with the provisions of this Act, the provisions of any Act of Parliament applicable to any society which becomes an approved society, or establishes a separate section which becomes an approved society, shall also be applicable to such society in so far as it carries on business under this Act and to such section.
This Clause also raises a point which came under discussion yesterday, and I gathered that the substance of it would be accepted, although the exact words are not quite suitable. The point with which the Clause intends to deal is that societies which may become approved societies, and do business under this Act, may be societies registered under the Friendly Societies Act, the Trade Union Act, or a number of other Acts. They may also form sections, and here again it is at least open to doubt whether the provisions of these Acts relating to these various societies, would also relate to their operation under this Act, and more particularly whether they would relate to the operations of what are called sections under this Act. It is to resolve that doubt, which would be very embarrassing to those who will have to administer the Act hereafter, that this Clause is put forward. It was really suggested to me by the hon. Member for Bury (Sir G. Toulmin), to whom I am indebted for having put forward the idea. I agree that the words are not so apt as certain other words which the Attorney-General has shown me. I beg to move.
Sir G. TOULMIN: I beg to second the Motion.
Mr. JOHN WARD: If the Attorney-General will turn to Clause 29, he will see that the last few words there have been inserted by the trade unions for the purpose of avoiding the limitation as to who can be members of trade unions under the Trade Union Act, 1871. I am afraid that
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if the words "Except in so far as may be inconsistent with the provisions of this Act, the provisions of any Act of Parliament applicable to any society which becomes an approved society," etc., remain part of the additional Clause, they will clash with the words in Clause 29. It will be like re-enacting the Trade Union Act with reference to who can be members of a trade union. At any rate, I am anxious that the Attorney-General should see that the Amendment that we have got into the Bill to safeguard our position is not rendered nugatory by the proposal of the hon. Member opposite.
Sir RUFUS ISAACS: I do not think that the words of the Clause proposed by my hon. and learned Friend the Member for St. Pancras would in the slightest degree affect the provision we have made in the interests of the trade unions at the end of Clause 29. It was, in fact, to safeguard such provision that my hon. and learned Friend introduced the words at the beginning: "Except in so far as may be inconsistent with the provisions of this Act." There is no fear whatever of any difficulty arising in regard to the matter. With reference to the Amendment, I propose to accept the Clause, and subsequently to introduce an Amendment which is really not one of substance, but which is, I think, desirable in order to avoid any possible confusion, and also meet the apprehension in the mind of my hon. Friend the Member for Stoke. Instead of saying that "the provisions of any Act of Parliament applicable to any society," and so forth, shall apply, it would be better to say that the business which any approved society carries on under the provisions of this Bill shall be one of those included in the various Acts applicable to the various classes of societies. That will remove all doubt. That will be the substance of the Amendment I shall propose. I am indebted to my hon. and learned Friend opposite, and also to the hon. Gentleman the Member for Bury (Mr. Toulmin), for putting down the Clause, which I think has met a very real need in the Bill.
Question, "That the proposed Clause be read a second time," put, and agreed to.
Sir RUFUS ISAACS: I beg to move to leave out the words,
the provisions of this Act, the provisions of any Act of Parliament applicable to any society which becomes an approved society, or establishes a

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separate section which becomes an approved society, shall also be applicable to such society in so far as it carries on business under this Act and to such section;
and to insert instead thereof,
Except in so far as may be inconsistent with this Part of this Act any business transacted under this Part of this Act by any approved society shall be treated as part of the ordinary business transacted by societies in the class to which that society belongs, and any enactment applying to any society in relation to the transaction of such ordinary business shall apply accordingly in relation to the business transacted by the society under this part of this Act. This section shall apply to an approved society which is a separate section of another body subject to the necessary adaptation.
These words meet the exact point in the hon. Member's mind. They make quite plain the intention of the hon. and learned Gentleman and himself.
Question, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Clause," put, and negatived.
Words proposed, inserted.
Proposed Clause, as amended, read a second time.
Mr. HAYES FISHER: I beg to move that the following new Clause be read a second time:—
Limit of Rate.
Where under the powers of this Act a council of a county or county borough is authorised to sanction expenditure by a local health committee on medical or sanatorium benefit to insured persons or their dependents, no expenditure shall be so sanctioned which will cause the amount available for defraying the expenses of sanatorium or medical benefit to be exceeded by more than the amount which would be produced by a rate of one penny in the pound over the area of the county or county borough, and nothing in this Act shall authorise the council of any county or county borough to contribute out of the county fund or borough fund or borough rate a sum exceeding the amount which would be produced by a rate of one halfpenny in the pound over the area of the county or county borough.
Mr. SPEAKER: I would like to ask the hon. Member whether this limitation of rate applies to only one Clause in the Bill or to more than one?
Mr. HAYES FISHER: It applies to Clauses 16, 18, and 25, but it would be almost unintelligible unless it were moved as a new Clause. I beg to put forward my Amendment for the consideration of the House. I raise my voice against any resort to the rates in support of the benefits to be conferred by this Bill. I believe that the author of this Bill himself had no idea when he introduced it that any recourse was to be had to the rates for supplying benefits to those who will benefit by this measure. What was intended by this Insurance Bill was that such benefits, given to the insured, should be within the compass of the contributions made by the employer, by the insured person himself, and of a certain amount of money found directly by the taxpayer. I do not believe that any Member of this House whatever had in mind when he first contemplated this Bill that there would be any resort, as a rule, to the rates, but that the general benefits of this Bill would have to be met out of the three contributions which make up the total—the employer's 4d., the employés 3d., and the 2d. of the State. That was discussed on a former occasion. The House came to the conclusion that there should be, or at all events might be, if the Treasury and the county councils were both willing to make them, extra contributions from the ratepayers. I hope that though the House came to that conclusion that the House will agree with me that there should be some limitation to the amount of money to be found by the ratepayers. Following therefore the analogy of the Feeding of School Children Act and the Public Libraries Act, I propose, in the first place, that there shall be a limitation of the amount of money which the ratepayers should be called upon to contribute. This limitation is to be confined to a halfpenny local rate. The extra money to be found where there is a deficiency in any scheme presented to the local health committee, should, I suggest, if met by a contribution from the Treasury and a contribution from the county council, might amount to a penny in all, of which a halfpenny only shall be found by the ratepayers.
We have examples of this in the legislation of this House on previous occasions, where the House thought that in experimental legislation, such as the Feeding

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of School Children Act and the Public Libraries Act, there should be the limitation of a halfpenny rate imposed by this House. I think that this is a wise form of legislation for this House to undertake. I have often complained in this House, and shall complain again—and I believe I have a good deal of sympathy in that complaint not only on this side of the House, but on the opposite side of the House—that this House is too ready to impose obligations on the ratepayers without really having the consent of the ratepayers for imposing that obligation upon them. I say that if there is some limitation imposed in this Act of a halfpenny—or even for a penny I should be grateful—then this would ensue, at all events: that the ratepayers in all probability would have some voice in the matter, and those who represent them more or less—often less than more—would have to come to this House before any further expenditure from the rates could be forced upon the ratepayers in support of this national insurance scheme. If we have no limitation upon the amount of money that can be found, and that is to be found by the ratepayers, what will occur will be that these local health committees will frame schemes of an extravagant nature. They will have at their disposal, under Clause 16 for the provision of medical benefit, an amount of money which is handed over to them, by the Insurance Commissioners. If hon. Members will refer to Sub-section (6) of Clause 16 they will see that the local health committees will only have for the provision of medical benefits such sums of money as are handed over to them by the Insurance Commissioners for that purpose.
At present there is no indication of what is to guide the Insurance Commissioners in the amount of money they will hand over to the local health committees for the purpose of medical benefit. If the amount of money is comparatively small it is perfectly obvious that the local health committee, whoso first duty it is to see that those who subscribe their money week in and week out are in the first place to have medical benefit for the money for which they have subscribed, will see that they get it. These local health committees will naturally say, "If we have not got sufficient money from the Insurance Commissioners we are bound to provide the medical benefit; we are bound to see that there are doctors sufficient and drugs sufficient for all the cases of sickness under this Act to be provided for those who contribute for the purpose of obtaining these
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medical benefits." "Very well," they will say, "we shall present schemes to the Treasury and to the county council"—on which there will be large deficiencies in some cases—"and we shall expect any deficiency to be met by the moneys subscribed by the Treasury and by the county councils."
Recollect that these local health committees will be elected by those who are really most interested in obtaining as great a benefit as they possibly can obtain from the local health committees out of the moneys at the disposal of the committees. The Committees, then, will be composed of those who are very largely interested in the benefit——
Sir RUFUS ISAACS: Partly.
Mr. HAYES FISHER: The learned Attorney-General says "Partly." He will not deny that the committees will be mainly composed of those interested in getting as much return as they possibly can for the contribution which they have given, and in part they will be composed of the doctors. These, in making their arrangement with these local health committees, will naturally say to these local health committees, "We cannot be expected to doctor these people for 6s. a head. We expect at least 10s." They may say that. Why not? They probably will, and I do not think anybody can say that for doctors visiting cases at great distances in the country, and visiting these cases constantly, that 10s. is too large. At all events, they will present their case, and there will be very few members indeed on each of these local health committees who will naturally be in favour of any economy of administration of the funds at their disposal. Therefore, human nature being what it is, those local health committees will be tempted to resort to the ratepayers and to the Treasury. All the stimulus, all the incitement will be on the side, not of economy, but of expenditure. There will be very few guardians of the public purse on these local health committees.
I say, therefore, if in this Act of Parliament, as it will be, there is an unlimited amount of money placed at the disposal of these local health committees—subject, of course, to the sanction of the county council — [An HON. MEMBER: "Hear, hear"]—yes, I will deal with that presently—subject to the sanction of the county council and of the Treasury; if this

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House says we will not, in this Act of Parliament, limit the amount of money which the ratepayers can be called upon to provide, then I say that a tremendous power and impetus will be behind all those upon the committee who desire this form of expenditure. I say that then every motive for economy is gone. Hon. Members know there will be very large claims indeed made upon the ratepayers to supplement the provisions from the various contributors. Let the Attorney-General and the Chancellor of the Exchequer consult those who are most learned and most experienced in friendly society work. What is their anticipation as to deficits under the the Bill by these local health committees? I know what information they have given me! It is that as this Bill has progressed the chances of deficits have been enlarged over and over again. Every day almost we can see there is a growing chance, and more than a chance, almost a certainty, that a great many of these local health committees will find themselves face to face with very serious deficits if they are to give the benefits indicated by this Bill. That, I believe, will be the case. I am certain it will be the case if these local health committees are not to be subject to the sanction of the Treasury and of the county council.
What does that control amount to? There is, first of all, the control of the Treasury. The Treasury would have to find half the deficit. Who is going to control the Treasury? Suppose it was the present Chancellor of the Exchequer, and supposing his Act of Parliament was unpopular because there was a large deficit, and that medical men could not be found to administer the medical benefits, would there be much resistance offered by the Chancellor of the Exchequer to find a very considerable amount of money in support of this Act? I am certain that rather than sacrifice the popularity of the Government and his own popularity the Chancellor of the Exchequer would readily find a half a million or a million to furnish the necessary supplies for the medical benefit. What position will the county councils or the borough councils be in, the Treasury having sanctioned this half a million? The Bill says that these councils may find the other half-million of the deficit. I have some experience on the London County Council, and when we find an Act of Parliament with the words "may find the
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money," we very soon find the word "may" gets translated into "must," and the force of pressure upon the local bodies is such that they lose the whole of the control of their financial expenditure and find themselves bound by the Act of Parliament. Therefore I say it is wise for this House to place some limit upon the amount of money in the first place which can be demanded from the county councils.
Let us see why, in my opinion, the ratepayers should not be called upon to provide any of this money. We always understood there was to be a direct contribution by the employer and a direct contribution by the State, and therefore why should there be in addition an indirect contribution by the employer? Why make us of the rates at all? Already the burdens thrown upon industries in this country are formidable. There are many who think that some of our industries which show small profit are likely to be wiped out so far as profits are concerned by this Act of Parliament. Some of them are naturally very timid when they see Acts of Parliament of this kind, and to force upon them further indirect expenditure out of the rates which are already a very heavy burden, is a serious matter. We ought to be cautious of the ratepayers' money, and all the more so because the bigger ratepayers will have no voice whatever in the election of these local health committees. It is only the smaller ratepayers who would be consulted. After all, we see the rates for the destitute, even under strict supervision, are very high, and in this case we are making use of the rates for people who are not destitute. These people who are to receive medical benefits under this Clause are not destitute, and where there is a deficit for medical benefit the money is to be made up by ratepayers for people who are not destitute, and who in many cases will have as much as £150 a year. Many of these people could very well afford to pay their own doctor's bill, either through their friendly society or as individuals. They have done it up to the present. Why should they send in their doctor's bills and their chemist's bills to the ratepayers? I say they have no necessity whatever to make use of the rates in this matter.
If this were an attempt to obtain some support for the Post Office contributors from the rates there might be something to be said for it, because they are the poorest and most helpless class in England, and far less is done under this Bill

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for them than any other class. The right hon. Gentleman may say the ratepayers will gain by this whole system of national insurance, and therefore the ratepayers may well be expected to find a part of the money. I do not believe the ratepayers are going to gain in the least by finding rates for this purpose and for this reason. The members of societies for whom medical advantages would have to be provided are persons who, in all probability, would not come upon the rates. They will be mainly people who never would come upon the rates for medical benefits. There may be a certain number who would, but very few, and if hon. Members were to strike a balance, they would find the balance of expenditure very heavy against the local authorities. I have had many battles upon this subject, and I have always found that the local ratepayer gets the worst of any bargain of this kind with the Treasury, and they will certainly get the worst of this bargain. There never ought to have been any recourse to the rates at all under this National Insurance scheme, and the only benefits under it should be benefits that could be obtained by the three contributions made—that is, by the employers, the employed, and the State. I have made my protest before against any resort to the rates, and I now ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer to meet my request by putting in some limit if he does not agree with my limit of a half-penny. If he does not do that, I cannot help thinking that he is departing from his original idea when he introduced this Bill. I do not think he was looking to the rates when he introduced the Bill. The benefits which the Bill provides have been very much extended, and the Bill has been improved, but he finds that these contributions from the employer, the employed, and the State are not now sufficient, and he is looking to the ratepayers to further support the scheme. I hope I shall receive support on this occasion, and that the ratepayers will find champions for their cause in this House to see that further burdens shall not be thrown upon the already overburdened ratepayers of this country.
Sir A. CRIPPS: I rise to second the proposal made by my right hon. Friend. I want to make it clear at the outset, and I hope the Chancellor of the Exchequer will bear this in mind, that we are in no way dealing with the benefits which the Bill proposes, but with the method or way in which these benefits have to be paid for.
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I think it is quite clear that, as has already been stated by my right hon. Friend, that the principle, and very important principle, is that if you have a national insurance service, for instance, this National Insurance scheme, you ought to find all the money, so far as it goes, from the State or the National Exchequer. I do not think anyone who ever looked into the question of rates and tried to make an adjustment between local and Imperial taxation can dispute that proposition. The only question that can be raised here is, are there any special conditions connected with national insurance that differentiates it from national service? In my opinion no such differentiation can possibly be made. I know it was suggested by the Chancellor of the Exchequer that one reason for putting a charge upon the rates was that the rates would get a certain corresponding advantage, and that the ratepayers would get some relief, even if a small additional charge was placed upon them. But the answer to that is this. Any relief the ratepayers would get by a national Insurance Bill is a relief which, in principle, they are entitled to at the present time, because it has been pointed out by the Royal Commission, and by all people who have tried to consider the proper allocation between local and Imperial taxation, that a large proportion of what is now called Poor Law expenditure should not be thrown upon the rates, but should be borne by the Exchequer, and the reason is that a large number of charges which in their inception were local have now become general and universal. I do not want to argue that now, but I do not want the Chancellor of the Exchequer to say that we have overlooked the fact that there is a certain amount of corresponding advantage, because the answer to that is, as I have said, that the ratepayer is entitled to have corresponding advantage quite outside the provisions of this Bill altogether. There are three sources from which the funds are obtained under the present Bill: partly from the insured persons, partly from the employer, and partly from the national exchequer. So far as the employer, and, I think, also the workman, is concerned, you are putting on a tax or charge which may very seriously affect home industry.
Rates undoubtedly affect home industries; it may be in a more or less degree, but no one will say that it is not to the disadvantage of home industry in a particular locality to be highly rated. I am not going so far as to say that rates have

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absolutely abolished industry; they may be carried to that extent. But no man will dispute the proposition that high rates in a particular locality are often a very serious charge upon home industry. If that is so, is it not wrong that you should in a Bill of this kind put additional charges upon the industries of this country, which you undoubtedly do when you raise certain charges to be paid indirectly by employer or employed? It is more obvious in the case of the employer. I believe the whole charges under this Bill, whether intended to be divided or not, will really fall upon the principal industries in which employers and employed are engaged. That being so, it would be only reasonable to adopt the Amendment proposed by my right hon. Friend. If there is to be a charge of this kind it ought to be limited in amount, and that, of course, is the real meaning of the present Amendment. The expenditure under this Bill will be incurred by the local health committee. That committee will consist, as regards the majority of its members, of insured persons. If the health committee had only to do with insurance matters I should not raise any objection; if it had only to divide amongst the insured persons the funds with which they were entrusted I think they would be a very proper body to deal with questions of that kind. But surely it is an entirely different matter when you come to the question of imposing an obligation of this kind upon the rates in addition. Directly you arrive at that point it is clear that the interests of the insured, who have a majority on the health committee, will be different to those of the ratepayers. I am not saying whether the health committee or the ratepayers are right, but they are distinct, and although in Clause 65, Sub-section (4), a provision is introduced providing that where health committees have recourse to the rates the representation of the county council or the borough councils may be increased according to the decision of the Insurance Commissioners, that is no answer to the proposition which I am now putting. It is not intended that the ratepayers in that case may have the controlling influence, and it is only intended that his representation should be increased. Whether it is increased or not does not depend on what is done in this House, but upon the views of the Insurance Commissioners. Let me now deal with the question of what control there is. I admit there is the Treasury control, because without the Treasury
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assent as regards the half of the expenditure no charge can be put upon the ratepayers.
According to the experience which I have had with rating questions, which has been somewhat long, I do not think the control of the Treasury is any effective safeguard so far as the ratepayer is concerned. There is the other so-called control that the ratepayer cannot be charged with this expenditure without it is assented to by the county and borough councils concerned. But what is the real effect of that? I assume there has been expenditure properly incurred by the local health committee. [An HON. MEMBER: "Estimated."] Very well, I will say properly estimated. I assume the money is wanted for the purpose. Under those circumstances is it really possible for a county borough or a county council, in meeting a charge of that kind, to put a corresponding charge upon the rates. Practically that is impossible. We are putting the county council or the county borough into a position in which nominally they have control, but really they will not have control at all. Although we cannot get rid of the ratepayers' liability altogether, I think it is most important that we should have a limitation such as is proposed by my right hon. Friend.
I hope that when the Chancellor of the Exchequer comes to reply upon this point he will meet our objection that this ought not to be a ratepayers' charge at all, and if it is, the amount ought to be limited, because under the Bill as it stands the ratepayer has no controlling influence on the local health authorities, and he does not come in until after the expenditure has been incurred. Under those circumstances, although he has a form of control, practically it would be almost impossible for him to exercise any effective control. There is nobody more unfairly treated in this House than the ratepayer. The Treasury has its representative in the Chancellor of the Exchequer, but the ratepayer has no representative. We are not elected as ratepayers and we do not represent ratepayers, and therefore I urge upon the House that we ought to be exceedingly careful in putting a charge upon persons we do not represent, and particularly upon the ratepayer, who has already to bear an extremely heavy burden as regards our home industries.
Mr. HARRIS: I support this Clause not because I want to prevent a recourse to the rates if necessary for public health

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purposes, but in order to enforce a principle I always thought was especially dear to the hearts of progressive Gentlemen opposite, that is the principle that money raised by the rates ought to be expended by authorities elected by the ratepayers or by committees under the effective financial control of those authorities. That principal is infringed by this Bill, which creates a bad precedent which I think ought to be limited by some provision in the Bill to secure that, if these large drafts have to be made upon the rates to meet the expenditure in question Parliament should have the opportunity of reconsidering the whole question of the administration of the money. The precedent set is a bad one; first of all, because the municipal authorities will have to find the money for these purposes whether they like it or not. [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] I know there are some soothing words, some blessed words in the Bill, which practically say to the authorities, "you may have an option," but if ever there was a case of "there is no obligation, but you must," the local authorities will find themselves in that position.
When Parliament enacts that money may be found for a public purpose in a particular way and provides no other way of finding it, Parliament is really applying compulsion. There is another objection. If indirect recourse is had to the rates in the manner proposed by this Bill, you are going to prevent the ratepayers bringing home to the rate-spending authorities any extravagance in their expenditure, because they will reply that the rates have been drawn upon in this particular way for which they had no responsibility. I hope the Chancellor of the Exchequer will see that there really is some force in the objection which many of us who have been engaged for many years in municipal work feel towards this provision as it stands. I hope the right hon. Gentleman will consent to limit this provision in order that if large sums have to be drawn in this way Parliament will be able to reconsider the position in order to see if it cannot be put upon a more satisfactory footing.
Mr. BIGLAND: I shall give my support to this Resolution, because I understood from the first that there was to be no charge in connection with this matter from anybody but the Imperial Exchequer. We are very jealous in the towns as to scrutinising every measure where there happens to be any special or specific charge coming on the rates, and securing
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that new measures introduced for the nation shall be entirely financed out of the Imperial Exchequer. I must say that I was exceedingly pleased when I heard that this was an Imperial and not a local matter. The moment this local rate was mentioned it occurred to me that there would be an almost impossible position raised if the town council refused the local health committee's minute that a certain amount should be raised. We might have an almost impossible position raised in a county or a borough if the doctors or the medical officials really felt they could not work for less than a certain sum, and the apothecaries took the same view. Under those circumstances the amount of these items might be so severe that a heavy charge would be thrown upon the ratepayers, and odium would be placed upon the town council for refusing the health committee's suggestion. That is an invidious position in which to place town councils and county councils.
Nobody in this House really represents the ratepayers' interests, and I think many of us who represent large boroughs ought to speak more than we do from the ratepayers' point of view. I can assure the House that the ratepayers are getting exceedingly strained in their feelings with regard to any liability put upon them in this indirect and half voluntary manner. I sincerely trust that the limited expenditure which the Resolution now before the House puts upon town councils and county councils will be carried. I hope we shall really bring this matter to an issue, because everyone here has to answer to his constituents, and there is no doubt that the feeling in the constituencies is intensely strong in regard to rating matters sent down from this House which they are forced to put upon the ratepayers without their will or without their option in any way, without being submitted to them at all. I hope my right. hon. Friend will press his Resolution to a Division in order that we may see who will take up the ratepayers' interests and who will not.
Mr. J. SAMUEL: I understood from the speech of the hon. Member who moved this Clause that he argued that there would be no possibility of a reduction in the rates when this Bill became law. I also understood him to say that it would have no effect upon the ratepayers. I have supported this Bill throughout on that very principle, and I believe that when it becomes law it will have a very serious effect upon our poor rate at least.

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I hold that opinion very strongly, as I shall show in a few minutes. I think there is some argument to be used in favour of the limitation of the rate in regard to the expenditure of sanatoria and medical benefits, but especially in regard to sanatoria, because I do not think myself it will be very much needed, for the reason that every insured person in any borough or county will have 1s. 3d. deducted out of the amount he pays under the Insurance Bill, and the amount which will fall upon the rates to make up that deficiency will be very small indeed. If the expenditure in the county in which I live amounts to 1d. in the £ it will raise £16,000 per annum, which is a very high expenditure indeed, and I do not expect that such an expenditure as that would be charged for a very considerable number of years. Even if the counties or the towns spend up to a ½d., that is a very extravagant idea.
6.0 P.M.
The reason why I think there is a possibility of a reduction in the rates following upon this Bill is because the Poor Law Commission reported in the first place that the poverty arising from the sickness was equal to about 30 per cent. of the total poverty of those in receipt of parochial relief. They also report the very striking figures that 97 per cent. of the persons who apply for medical relief under the parish are treated for thirteen weeks or under; 74 per cent. are treated under four weeks, and 54 per cent. are able-bodied men who are in receipt of parish relief and are treated under thirteen weeks. Those acquainted with the class of persons who apply for this medical relief know that the applicants are not friendly society men but persons entirely outside friendly societies, and undoubtedly they are outside trade unions, because trade unionists as such do not make application for assistance to the parish doctor; neither do members of friendly societies. Therefore the bulk of the men in my experience who ask for treatment by the parish doctor, which is rather a serious charge upon the poor rate, are the men who will now for the first time come within a scheme of insurance and have the assistance of a free doctor and of free medicine. They will not in future require to apply to the parish doctor for assistance.
Let me give another striking instance where this Bill will affect the rates. In the town I have the honour to represent
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our poor rate, owing to the shipbuilding depression a few years ago, went up from 1s. 6d. to 3s. in the £. It was due entirely to the fact that we had a large number of men employed in the stone yards, which is a very degrading system of work. The shipbuilding and engineering trades will now for the first time become insured trades, and I am hoping these men in future will not apply for assistance in our stoneyards or for assistance from the parish, but that they will be assisted under this Bill. It is well known the engineers are a well organised body. They pay into their society for out-of-work benefit, and it is a very remarkable fact that during the whole of the depression in the town in which I live we never had a single engineer apply to the parish for assistance These men are able to get their out-of-work benefit, and therefore they do not become a charge on the rates. It is the man who is not in any society, and who does not make any provision for out-of-work benefit or for sickness who becomes chargeable on the rates. I am, therefore, hoping to see a very large reduction in the number of persons who will apply for parish relief in the future, and as 10,000,000 people who are now outside the scope of any friendly society or trade union will become insured under this compulsory scheme, I believe this Bill will be the means of effecting a very large reduction in our poor rates in the future, just as old age pensions have resulted in a very large reduction in the poor rate in some towns. We have had in some towns a very substantial reduction, and, since the Poor Law disqualification has been removed, that reduction is increasing year by year. Whilst I believe there is something in the argument of the hon. Member for Fulham (Mr. Hayes Fisher) that for a year or two at least there might be a limit fixed as to the amount that will fall upon the rates, still I think the tendency of this Bill will be to relieve the rates to a very substantial extent.
Mr. HARRY LAWSON: The hon. Member for Stockton (Mr. J. Samuel) is a man of a sanguine, if not credulous, temperament. He thinks the rates are going down permanently in this country on account of this Bill. That is not according to past experience. If the rates go down in one direction they go up in another. If the Legislature sees the rates going down in the whole country they are quick to impose new duties and obligations on the local authorities, which soon bring the

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rates back to their former level. I hope the Chancellor of the Exchequer will see his way to accept this Amendment. I believe it is congruous with experiment and congruous with expediency, and to the advantage of the Bill. In nearly all experimental legislation of this sort past precedents are in favour of limiting the rate that can be imposed. My right hon. Friend gave examples. I do not intend to repeat them. There never was a Bill in which uncertainty was so great as this Bill. It is absolutely terra incognita in regard to many of the provisions that it will apply. Therefore, because it is so difficult to prophesy, and because everybody who prophesies is likely to be wrong, there is all the more reason for imposing a limit on the rate which can be raised in aid of the Bill, and all the more chance of making it acceptable, not only to the local authorities, but also to the ratepayers whose interests they look after, and whose affairs they administer. You want the local authorities on the side of it, and therefore I think the right hon. Gentleman will be wise in accepting the Amendment. He must recollect he himself contemplates amending legislation in three years. The deposit contributors are to come up again before 1915, and that will involve an amending Bill dealing with the whole scheme of finance under the Bill. There will be no difficulty in adapting the Clauses which are refered to here to new conditions as they arise under the Bill, and, if the limit is found inconvenient and if the local authorities and the ratepayers wish it to be removed, remove it then.
I want to point out to the right hon. Gentleman the burden that may be imposed by a rate in aid is going to fall on those people who will be most injuriously affected by the Bill. The employers of the country are asked to make a very great sacrifice to pay £12,000,000, or whatever it is, towards the fund required for the administration of the Bill, and yet they are the people whose premises will be most highly rated. It is not the capitalist drawing his income from foreign sources who will contribute under this Bill; it is the manufacturer and the mill owner, whose premises are highly rated at present, or the big trader whose stores are highly assessed. It is therefore just those people who are being asked to contribute in the first place who now run the risk of a burden being placed upon them in the second place. It is a snare and a delusion to say it is only permissive to the local
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authorities. What is permissive in this sense is obligatory. The local authorities are bound to respond—they cannot help it—or they are held up to obloquy as compared with a generous House of Commons that is willing to give the poorer classes everything, but is met with the obstructive tactics of local authorities.
There is one particular class of contributors which is very soon going to fall upon the local authorities. The average medical benefit under the Bill was, of course, taken as equivalent to 6s. per head per annum throughout life, but I believe that was calculating 4s. per head to the doctors. As you improve the terms of the doctors—and I am not in the least against it—so you make it more likely a rate in aid will be asked from the local authorities. That is a point which the Chancellor of the Exchequer must take into account. He has met the doctors to some extent, and he is going further in their direction every day. That makes it all the more likely the rates of the country will have to contribute. Clause 39, paragraph (d), as the Chancellor of the Exchequer, of course, knows, lays it down that,
"Such sum as the local Health Committee may, with the consent of the Insurance Commissioners, determine shall in each year be payable in respect of each deposit contributor for the purposes of the cost of medical benefit."
The Chancellor of the Exchequer must see, as he has improved the terms for the medical profession, so he has in the case of the deposit contributors made it almost certain that he will have to fall upon the rates, and that the health committee will have to recommend in the first instance and the local authority will have to take from the ratepayers in the second the sums requisite to make up the stipend of the medical practitioner, and, of course, the money for the drugs and so on necessary under the medical benefit. All that makes it the more necessary, it seems to me, to allay the fears of the ratepayers. You want to engage public opinion on the side of the scheme. The Chancellor of the Exchequer is a great fighter, but I do not think he wants to fight everybody who is putting this Bill into operation. He has got a good many interests to force for the first time into discipline and organisation. Surely, as he is going to do so much by way of compulsion, he, at least, need not commence with the local authorities. Let him give the local authorities some ground for confidence. That is all my right hon.

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Friend the Member for Fulham asks. He says, as in the case of the institution of the school boards, as in the case of the first rate for national education, and as in numerous Acts in the past, so in this case it is expedient in the first place to set a limit to the possible rate in aid. There must be amending legislation, and, if the limit is found inconvenient afterwards, let it be brought up and submitted to the decision of the House. I hope for that reason the right hon. Gentleman will be able to accept in whole or in part the Amendment of my right hon. Friend.
Mr. HUME-WILLIAMS: I wish to take up the point that this payment is really optional, and that consequently the county councils will be able to protect the ratepayers. If you look at Clause 16, Subsection (7), I think it is quite clear that in practice it will not be optional at all. It is not quite clear from the Sub-section whether the health committee has first to make the expenditure and then come to the county council when the deficiency has arisen, or whether they are to estimate, but, if the health committee are met with an expenditure, either incurred or estimated, for which they have no funds to provide, they are to make application partly to the Treasury and partly to the county council, and, if that expenditure is sanctioned by the Treasury and the county council, then the county council and the Treasury are to bear half each. What will happen in practice? The health committee will come forward and say these people have paid their contributions and are entitled to sickness and disablement benefit under the Bill. We have not sufficient funds. What will the county council do, and what can the Treasury do? In practice they must sanction the expenditure, because if they do not sanction it the person who has paid his contribution does not get that for which he has paid. In fact, and in practice, you leave them no option whatever. If the Treasury or the county council do not sanction this estimated expenditure by the health committee that body is left in an impossible position, because it will be unable to provide that for which the contributors have paid. The argument that the county council can protect the ratepayers by refusing the sanction is not well founded. Supposing a position should arise in which the necessary expenditure of the health committee has exceeded their funds. Who ought to
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provide the balance? I submit that it should not be the ratepayers. It should come from the Imperial Exchequer or from Parliament, but certainly not from the locality in which the deficiency has occurred. We are all anxious to make this a good working Act, but I think there is much in the argument of my right hon. Friend that if you put the expenditure on the ratepayers in the locality and add to that any expenditure which they may incur in respect of sanatoria, as regards which they have no option, you will not only make the Bill unpopular, but you will excite animosity. If the expenditure is to be incurred by the ratepayers, you certainly ought to limit it.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: I want to impress one point on hon. Members who have taken part in this Debate, and that is that there is no obligation on the part of the representatives of the ratepayers to incur any liability. Another point I should like to make is that every charge and everything in this Bill involving expenditure is in relief of charges which are now liable to fall on the rates. Hon. Members opposite dissent. What are the charges imposed by this Bill? They are charges in respect of sickness and the cure of consumption. They are charges in respect of poverty, caused by unemployment, and there is not one of those things that does not constitute a charge at the present time on the ratepayers. There is only one barrier in the way of that, and that is the pride of the worker. When a man's pride breaks down, he goes straight on to the rates. There is a legal liability on the part of the ratepayer in respect of every charge dealt with under this Bill, and not only that, but the charge, for instance, in respect of maternity is already actually paid by the ratepayers, and is a very heavy one.
Wherever there is destitution there is a legal liability on the part of the ratepayers. My hon. Friend the Member for Stockton referred to the Report of the Royal Commission on this matter. That report constantly impressed upon the Committee this one fact, that sickness is responsible for at least one-half of the cost of the Poor Law at the present moment. I will come afterwards to the question of unemployment, which is also a contributory cause. But take the Poor Law rates. Those rates for this country amount, I think, to about fifteen millions sterling, and, according to the Report of the Poor Law Commission, one-half of that is directly attributable to

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sickness among the classes who eventually come on to the rates. I therefore do not see how, in this respect, this Bill could do otherwise than effect a diminution of the burden which now presses on the ratepayers. The worker does not resort to the Poor Law until he is compelled to do so. He will spend his last penny, he will part with his furniture, he will get the help of friends, he will depend largely on the credit given him by the shop keeper, and, incidentally, I may mention that the small shop keeper in town and in country is very largely the poor man's banker. He will advance him money and goods until he gets back into employment. No doubt the shop keeper incurs a good many bad debts, but he gets his money back by spreading the liability over the customers who pay. That is a system under which the most honest members of the community very often pay for the others, but, after all, when the worker has parted with his last farthing and has exhausted his credit he is bound to resort to the Poor Law.
Mr. HARRY LAWSON: That only touches the case of the casual worker.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: The hon. Gentleman is absolutely wrong. He assumes it only applies to casual workers in this country. He is perfectly wrong. I think if he will examine, not merely the Report of the Poor Law Commission, but the evidence which was given before it, he will find that an appalling percentage of the people usually in regular employment, and not to be described as casuals, come on to the rates. That is especially the case so far as consumption is concerned. It is a very expensive disease; it costs on the average fifty-eight weeks' sick pay with medical attendance. It is by far the most expensive disease which the Poor Law has to deal with. I want the House to take that into account. Here is a practical charge for sickness taken upon this fund, and for the first time you are having a great fund created for the purpose of combating consumption. The hon. Gentleman has referred to these charges causing a constant increase of the rates. Nothing can prevent the growth of the rates except a proposal of this kind in a matter like the treatment of consumption.
We know local authorities have embarked on considerable expenditure in building public sanatoria and providing expensive treatment for the purpose of curing and extirpating the disease. The
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right hon. Gentleman the Member for East Worcestershire quoted the case of Birmingham, where, in order to deal with the disease, they are building sanatoria. Again, at Newport, they are spending a good deal of money. But for the first time a sum of a million and a-half is being found by the Treasury as a permanent fund for building sanatoria, and this is a charge which, in the ordinary course, would fall either on the ratepayers or upon charitable subscriptions. This burden would eventually fall upon the ratepayers unless we neglected the problem altogether, and I do not think that is possible now that public attention has been called to it and the public conscience has been aroused by the agitation which has been going on for the last three or four years. The proposals under this Bill relieve the ratepayers to a very considerable extent of the charges which would inevitably fall on the rates. Take next the question of unemployment. My hon. Friend instanced the case of Stockton, but there are other cases where, during a period of bad trade, there is considerable distress, and, in order that the ratepayers may come to the relief of the poor people, the rates are very considerably burdened for the purposes of relief.
Mr. HARRY LAWSON: What about Grants-in-Aid?
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: The largest Grant-in-Aid ever given by this House was, I believe, voted by the present Government. It amounted to £300,000, and I would like to ask how does that compare with the Grant-in-Aid under this Bill, which amounts to somewhere about two millions?
Mr. J. SAMUEL: Four millions.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: At any rate, between two or three millions, which is partly subscribed by the workman, partly by the employer and partly by the State, towards the relief of unemployment. This is a burden which will fall almost entirely on the ratepayer but for this measure. The hon. Gentleman has talked about the Post Office contributor. He is just the person who would come on to the rates. His contribution would keep him, it may be, for twenty-six weeks, but if he is in a sanatorium it will keep him until he is cured, and, but for this Bill, there would be nothing for him but resorting to the rates. Undoubtedly it is a considerable Grant-in-Aid of those charges which fall

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ultimately on the shoulders of the ratepayers. Now I come to my second proposition. There is no charge imposed by this Bill on the ratepayer. If he incurs the charge himself it is purely optional, and, although the right hon. Gentleman, and those who followed him, have suggested that the option was tantamount to compulsion, I would reply that, if that is so, it is because of the inherent nature of the case. Suppose you find in a particular district there is no adequate accommodation provided for consumptives. It will be the case that, under this Bill, we shall be providing not only for consumptive insurers and for those out of employment, but we shall also be providing sufficient money to provide sanatoria and keep them going. I quite admit that the ratepayer cannot refuse to find the necessary money to keep it going. Supposing you had no Insurance Bill at all, what would happen? Supposing you had a consumptive district. The whole charge of building the sanatorium and of maintaining it would fall upon the ratepayers. Now you get the Imperial Grants, which probably amount to half the cost of building; you get the share of the million of money in order to maintain it, and even when you come to a deficit, instead of its falling upon the ratepayers entirely, one-half of it is contributed by the Treasury. Is that not infinitely better than the present system? It does not impose legally, it does not impose morally, any obligation which is not now an obligation on the ratepayer which is borne legally and morally by him. It is the business of the ratepayer to see that there is proper accommodation for the cure of consumption. It is a legal obligation cast upon him. If he does not discharge it, he neglects that duty. We create no burden, but we bear half the burden. One hon. Member suggested that the local health committees could incur expenditure, and that the ratepayer could not refuse to honour it. They cannot compel him to do that.
The provisions of the Bill are largely in accord with the views of the County Councils' Association and the Association of Municipal Corporations. They wanted us to say that an estimate shall be prepared by the local health committee; that before they incur any expenditure beyond their means they shall submit an estimate to the county council, and, unless the county council sanctions that increased expenditure,
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it shall not be incurred. Surely that is a sufficient safeguard for both the ratepayers and the taxpayers. There is one very important point. One of the hon. Gentlemen who took part in the discussion on the other side of the House complained that it was an infringement of the important principle that the rates ought not to be expended except by the representatives of the ratepayers. I accept that principle. I tried to extend it myself to the sphere of education. I do not think the hon. Gentleman who made that speech would accept the principle in that case. I would extend it not merely to the Insurance Bill, but to the Education Act. In this case the expenditure can only be incurred by the ratepayers. Under the Education Act there is no option. You can be mandamused if you do not expend the money, although others can spend it.
Sir HILDRED CARLILE: The ratepayers expend it now.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGEexpressed dissent.
Sir H. CARLILE: Of course they do.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: The ratepayers expend it, but they ought surely to have an option of saying whether they shall expend it or not. If you have a legal compulsion upon the ratepayer to spend the money, whether he wishes it or not, you can hardly say that it is his expenditure. Of course he finds the money.
Lord ROBERT CECIL: He has to discharge his duty.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: The Noble Lord is making my case. I am prepared to apply it here.
Lord R. CECIL: You are putting a new duty on him.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: It is really no new duty at all. It is the duty of the ratepayer to see that there is sufficient provision for the cure of consumption and to see that sick persons are properly cured, and therefore, I say, there is really no new obligation at all. All I want to say is this. That if that is the principle the hon. Gentleman applies, I am quite willing to see it applied all round, and that the ratepayers should have an option as to what they will spend. That is the principle of the Bill. If he does not want to spend it you need not spend it, and not only that—perhaps the Noble Lord will accept this—

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before he makes up his mind to spend it he can come to terms as to representation on the body that administers the fund.
Lord R. CECIL: Certainly.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: I am glad to hear that from the Noble Lord. I wish I had heard it some years ago. What does this mean? It means that if the London County Council, for instance, be invited to find an extra £2,000 for maintaining a sanatorium within its district, they can say, "we will only do it upon one condition. We have now got one-third of the committee; we must in future have a majority if we are going to undertake this obligation." They can make these terms, and they can refuse to subscribe the money unless these terms are accepted. If that principle were extended all round it would solve many a question. That is the principle we have put in here, and I do not think it is an unfair condition to impose. It is the condition we have got in with regard to the employer. If the friendly societies say, "We are not going to spend a penny-piece more, we have gone so far as we propose going, and any further obligation must be incurred by the taxpayer and ratepayer between them," that means that their interest in economy ceases at that point, and the only interest in economic administration is transferred to the taxpayer and ratepayer. They have a perfect right to say in that case, "The control of the administration must pass into our hands." Those are conditions they can easily make.
Mr. HARRY LAWSON: Under Clause 55, Sub-section (4), it is provided,
The Insurance Commissioners may, where any part of the cost of medical benefit or sanatorium benefit is defrayed by the council of the county or county borough, increase the representation of the council and make a corresponding diminution in the representation of the insured persons.
But under a former Clause it was provided that the insured persons must have a majority of the whole body. I think that contravenes what the Chancellor of the Exchequer said just now.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: I do not quite follow the hon. Member.
Mr. HARRY LAWSON: The right hon. Gentleman said it was possible for the London County Council, if it contributed towards the purposes of the Bill, to ensure that they have a majority on the
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health committee. It is provided that they may increase their number, but under the Clause constituting the insurance or health committees the insured persons must have not less than a majority.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: That is perfectly true with regard to the present conditions. But this is a bargain. They have the most absolute right to refuse, and nobody can compel them to agree. They can make any conditions they like in regard to representation. Of course, the local health committee can refuse if they like. It is not contrary to what is in the Bill. They cam make any conditions they like, and of course it is a bargain between them. If there is an option on the part of the county councils of course the option must also apply to the local health committees. The Bill says,
"The Insurance Commissioners may, where any part of the cost of medical benefit or sanatorium benefit is defrayed by the council of the county or county borough, increase the representation of the council and make a corresponding diminution in the representation of the insured persons."
Clause 55, Sub-section (2), simply provides for the committee as originally constituted. You can go to the committee and say, "You must modify the constitution where any part of the cost of the medical benefit or sanatorium benefit is defrayed by the council." The council then may make any conditions they like. I do not think they are unfair conditions. If the burden in future is to be cast upon the ratepayer and the taxpayer, as I have pointed out, there would be no further interest in the economic administration, and the county council or the borough council have a right to make conditions with regard to management. I only say that in order to show that if the ratepayer wants to make any conditions of that kind it is a matter entirely for himself. Even now, although he is not spending a penny upon these institutions, yet he has a very considerable share in the representation. The majority which is given to insured persons is not a very substantial one even now. The ratepayer and the taxpayer between them have very nearly one-half.
Sir A. CRIPPS: Does the Chancellor of the Exchequer say that in the event of a county council stipulating for increased representation the control will be taken out of the hands of the approved societies and the insured persons?
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: I say it is a matter of bargain between them, but if you are going to leave the county council free you must leave the local health committee free, and if they like to say to the local health committee, "We will not subscribe unless you give us control," if the local health committee like to do that they can.
Mr. HAYES FISHER: Can they do so without the consent of Parliament?
Mr. HARRY LAWSON: It is subject to the sanction of the Insurance Commissioners.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: Of course, it is subject to the sanction of the Insurance Commissioners. You must have some protection for the approved societies against an extortionate bargain, and you must have someone who represents the Imperial expenditure. They will go there and will no doubt advise the Treasury with regard to representation, and I have no doubt that the Treasury will in the vast majority of cases accept the advice of the Insurance Commissioners. The Insurance Commissioners ought surely to have a voice in the matter, seeing there is a contribution of one-half that comes from the Treasury. That is a very fair arrangement. The option is an option given to the county council and the representation can be arranged by a bargain between the parties.
Mr. HUME-WILLIAMS: Supposing that the local health committee report that their income is insufficient to meet their estimated expenditure and they ask the county council to sanction the extra expenditure, and they exercise the option which the Chancellor of the Exchequer says they have, and refuse to sanction it, if the estimate of the health committee turns out to be accurate, and the time arrives when they have spent their income, and the county council has refused to sanction any extra expenditure, where is the money to come from?
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: There is just the same provision there as there is when they have exceeded their expenditure. Take the representatives of the approved societies. If they exceed the amount of medical benefit, they have to refer to their societies, and the societies have got to deal with the difficulty.
Mr. STUART-WORTLEY: The ingenuity, and, indeed, the energy displayed by the right hon. Gentleman in
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controverting this Clause is evidence of its extreme moderation and reasonableness. I do not know that anybody seriously disputes that this Bill tends to relieve local authorities of a good deal of their present expenditure upon poor relief. It is not necessary to contend that, because ever since the Report of the Royal Commission on Local Taxation was presented, some ten or eleven years ago, no one has attempted to controvert the proposition which they unanimously laid down, that Poor Law expenditure, although it is necessary for practical reasons to subject it to local management, is necessarily an onerous and national kind of expenditure imposed upon local authorities practically by the central Government in the interests of society as a whole.
Therefore the argument is not available to the right hon. Gentleman, that he is here relieving local authorities of Poor Law expenditure, when all he is doing is to relieve one kind of national service by instituting and substituting another kind of national service. Here we are faced by the position that, in respect to what may be called a resulting expenditure, a kind of unascertained excess is going to replace upon the shoulders of local authorities so much of the expenditure which ten or eleven years ago the Royal Commission said local authorities ought to bear no part of at all. Of course this National Insurance Bill is, of all others, the most purely national service which anyone could possibly imagine. The hon. Gentleman (Sir A. Cripps) asked whether there was anything to differentiate this from other national services or anything which justified the proposal to reimpose on the shoulders of local authorities any part of the expenditure. He might have gone further. It is not only that it is impossible to differentiate it, but if you can differentiate it at all you can easily differentiate it against the Chancellor of the Exchequer and his contention, for anyone must see that all the expenditure which you can point out as going to come under this National Insurance Bill is the expenditure which will be the greatest in the local communities which are least able to bear it. It will be where the vitality of the community is low, where the rateable value is low and where, owing to the density of population or the poverty of the population, the rate of sickness, and the other social phenomena which make the expenditure under the Bill likely to be large, will be high, and, in fact, the burden

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will be greatest exactly where the community are least able to bear it. That is, of course, the national service of all others which ought to be borne most exclusively by the State as a whole.
Such is the moderation and such the reasonableness of the Amendment which the right hon. Gentleman took such special pains to controvert that all that the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Hayes Fisher) is proposing to do is not to relieve the local authorities of this share of the expenditure which the Bill puts upon them, but only to ask the right hon. Gentleman to adopt in the case of this particular expenditure one of those securities against extravagance which has been found so valuable and effective in other cases. The right hon. Gentleman cited some particular instances of economy successfully secured by these maximum limits upon rating power. He might have gone further and instanced an example larger, more important, and more conspicuous even than those which he cites; I mean the instance of the Metropolitan Police, which for years and years has been subject to a strict limit of 9d. upon the rateable value of the Metropolitan area as a maximum upon the amount which the authority administering the expenditure is allowed to disburse. It is true that the maximum limit has had to be interfered with by Statute and has had to be raised, but that was only when and because the Legislature had interfered to impose new burdens and create pensions and other charges not contemplated when the original maximum limit was imposed. Till that moment, and in respect of all other matters, the effect of that maximum rate—and I speak with some authority as one who took part in the administration of the fund—nothing has operated to produce economy in administration and to seeing that the public got the best possible value for the money which was spent, even when the amount was restricted, as the wholesome terror that one had of the possibility of having to come to Parliament to ask them to raise the maximum limit to the rating power under the Act. That is all that my hon. Friend is asking to do. As you found this rate limit effective for the purpose of economy in other cases so you will find it in this case, and even then you will still have been reimposing in that restricted way upon local authorities this portion of expenditure which the highest authority that ever was asked to express an opinion on the subject, ten or eleven years ago,
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said was a service so eminently national in its character that it ought to be removed entirely from the shoulders of local authorities.
Lord ALEXANDER THYNNE: The Debate, if it has had no other result, has extracted from the Chancellor of the Exchequer the very valuable admission that this legislation, which is permissive in form, is often mandatory in practical effect. That is a hard fact which those engaged in municipal work in this country have learned by bitter experience. The greater part of the right hon. Gentleman's argument was concentrated on proving that this was practically a Bill in relief of existing obligations of municipal authorities, and he expatiated at some length on the moral and legal liabilities which rest at present upon municipal authorities with regard to such matters as sickness, consumption, and unemployment. The right hon. Gentleman pointed out that under this Bill £1,500,000 was being given towards the erection of sanatoria for consumption, and that an additional £1,000,000 was being granted for running these institutions, and he argued that this £2,500,000 was in fact a great grant in relief of the obligation resting upon local authorities. That contention rests on a false basis. The right hon. Gentleman assumes that the whole of the 15,000,000 people who will be insured under this Act are, in respect of sickness and consumption, a liability upon the municipal authorities. I ask the House to draw a distinction—it is a very important distinction—between what is a legal or a moral liability and what is a practical liability. No doubt municipal authorities have got a legal and moral liability with regard to every member of this population. When you come to consider what their practical liability is, it certainly does not, and never will, extend to people having an income of upwards of £160 a year. Our liability in regard to sickness, in regard to consumption, in regard to unemployment is confined to those classes of the population on or near to the destitution line, and we have no practical liability in regard to a very large and very prosperous class, which will be included under this Bill, drawing salaries and incomes up to £160 a year. If there is any liability attaching to any class of institution with regard to this large class it falls not upon the local authorities, but upon the hospitals.
I may further point out that the local health committees, in the administration

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of these benefits, have no power to differentiate between the destitute, between those who would normally come on local authorities for relief, and those drawing a larger income who would never come within the purview of the same authorities. When the Chancellor of the Exchequer talks about the great diminution in the burden resting upon local authorities, I do not think it requires any very great foresight to prophesy that as a result of this Bill there will not be one infirmary the less in this country. After all, the object of this new Clause is not to relieve the municipalities of liability, but to limit their liability, as it has been limited under several Acts of Parliament in the past. Why does the Chancellor of the Exchequer reject this proposal to limit the liability under this Bill? It can only be for the one reason, that he contemplates that the ½d. or the 1d. rate will be exceeded, so far as municipalities are concerned, in order to meet the charges which will fall upon local authorities under this Act. One hon. Member opposite told us about the district which he represents, where a 1d. rate produces £16,000. Let me quote the City of London, where a 1d. rate amounts to £180,000. We are asking that the liability of the City of London in regard to this Bill, which is essentially a Bill directed towards national and not local services, should be limited to a sum of £90,000 a year. I do not think that that on the part of the ratepayers of London can be regarded as a niggardly or a parsimonious suggestion, but it certainly is very alarming, so far as the ratepayers of London are concerned, to find that the Chancellor of the Exchequer is not satisfied with a limit of this sort, but contemplates calling upon London to find, in the near future, for the purposes of this Insurance Bill, a sum exceeding £90,000 a year. I think that gives not only London but other municipalities in the country great cause for apprehension.
7.0 P.M.
Further, the Clause suggested by my right hon. Friend is not final. If it is found that this limit of ½d. is not sufficient, it will always be open to Parliament to reconsider their decision in the matter. The Chancellor of the Exchequer could come and ask the House to review all the circumstances and increase the limit from ½d. to 1d. or more, and I think the opportunity of reviewing a matter of this sort after a few years' experience of the working of the Bill is an
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opportunity which it would be very likely to welcome. Hon. Members have already dealt with the heavy contingent liability resting upon municipal authorities under this Bill. The right hon. Gentleman says it is purely optional, and that the municipalities and the local authorities will have the power of giving their sanction to any expenditure before they are called upon to contribute towards it. I ask the House to consider whether this power of sanction is not really illusory. After all, we have the power in the first instance. The first people to be consulted, with regard to this demand upon the local authorities, will be not the local authorities themselves but the Treasury, who are parties to the transaction. The application for the grant in the first instance will go to the Treasury, and it will then go to the local authorities. What is the position of the local authority if the Treasury agrees to pay its share? Would it be humanly possible for the local authority, if the Treasury consents, to withhold their quota? In considering a question of this sort, the Treasury stands on a very different footing from the local authority, because what may be a comparatively small charge on the Treasury will be a large charge on the local authority. Supposing the Treasury are asked to find £90,000, that will not affect the framing of a Budget. It will not affect a single Estimate. But supposing the county of London were asked to find £90,000, that is a very serious matter, not only for the people who are charged with the conduct of the finances of the county, but also for the ratepayer who has to bear the additional halfpenny. Although I support this new Clause, I do not think it goes far enough. I think, before we come to a satisfactory solution of this question, it will be necessary to make the local authorities parties certainly to some of the principal agreements entered into by the local health committees. I, furthermore, think that the local health committees should submit a Budget to the local authorities, so that the local authorities may be in a position to foresee what their possible liability will be. Although the liabilities are heavy enough under the Bill as it stands, I venture to think that as we proceed with the administration of the Bill in the country we shall find those liabilities growing at a very rapid rate.
There is no doubt, I think, that every Member of the House will welcome the anticipation that one of the first effects of

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this Bill will be to bring about a higher standard of medical service in the country. But that is not going to be done for nothing, and as we raise the standard of medical attendance, so undoubtedly we shall have to raise the amount spent under this Bill. There are such questions as the separation of clubs from doctoring, the free choice of doctors, the extension of benefits to dependents, and all the various questions involved in the organisation of the health service on a national basis which must undoubtedly lead to the rapid growth of expenditure under this Bill—a growth of expenditure for the balance of which the local authorities will be liable. There is a third reason why I suggest the placing of a limit on our liability in this matter, and that is in regard to the liability which would accrue from the absolute certainty of the extension of this measure in certain directions. I do not think any Member who has been present at the Debates in the Committee stage of this Bill will deny that in such matters as hospital attendance and institutional attendance this measure cannot be left where it is. I think the very serious and public spirited agitation which is growing up on behalf of the great hospitals of this country must undoubtedly lead to the extension of the benefits of this Bill in the direction of hospital treatment. I know I should not be in order in discussing the question of hospitals at any length on this Clause, but I would like to point out that the contingent liability which attaches with regard to these hospitals and the necessity of hospital treatment is a strong argument in favour of the limitation of the liability proposed in the Clause now before the House.
I venture to call the attention of the House to two facts. The best experts in this country have laid it down that it is not possible to satisfactorily administer this Bill, so far as the hospitals are concerned, without the use of some 30,000 beds in the country. That for London alone will involve an increase of 5,000 beds, of the actual number already provided, and that at a time when as regards the London hospitals about forty-three per cent. of the income is placed in jeopardy owing to certain other provisions in this Bill. I think the governors of the London hospitals have had a sufficiently bitter experience with regard to the neglect to protect their interests in such measures as the Workmen's Compensation Act. They have seen their efforts hampered and their out-door patients' departments overcrowded under
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the provisions for the medical treatment of children, and I think they have got very good reason indeed for the apprehensions with which they are at present beset. I hope the right hon. Gentleman who has hitherto turned a very deaf ear to the requests and interests of the municipal authorities in this Bill will accept the Clause brought forward by my right hon. Friend.
It is a matter of disappointment that the right hon. Gentleman did not serve an apprenticeship on one of the great local authorities of this country, because if he had done so he would have been better able to understand the great anxieties which beset those who are in charge of municipal finances. It has always struck me as a very remarkable fact in this House that the ratepayers look in vain, or practically in vain, for a champion of their interests on the benches opposite. The right hon. Gentleman and those behind him always seem to regard the ratepayers as being an essentially wealthy class of men. Those who have had some experience of the practical effects of the rating system know perfectly well that rates press with far greater incidence on the shoulders of the poorer classes than Imperial taxation. They press sometimes through rent in an indirect manner, but their burden is heavy and irksome. They are a burden upon industry and commerce. I venture to think that the right hon. Gentleman could not render a greater service to those who are engaged in all classes of industry and commerce, and to those who live in small tenements in overcrowded areas, than by placing the taxation of this country, so far as possible, on the broader basis of the Imperial Exchequer, and relieving pro tanto the narrower and more burdensome aspects of local taxation.
Mr. HARMOOD-BANNER: I am sorry the Chancellor of the Exchequer has not accepted this Clause. I do not think he fully considered the proposal before him. The only figure he gave was £2,000 when speaking of a subscription for a sanatorium. It is not a matter of £2,000 we are referring to at the present moment. In the whole of the United Kingdom a 1d. rate will realise £900,000. Let the House consider what this proposal means to the Chancellor of the Exchequer, or, rather, to the Treasury. Is the sum of £450,000 not sufficient for his requirements? When discussing Clause 55 we were very much horrified to hear the Chancellor of the Exchequer speak of the heavy rates which

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this Bill would impose upon various communities. Is the sum of £450,000 not a sufficiently heavy rate? I would like to know, because if he is going to ask for more than that sum it is just as well that we should know it. In Liverpool a 1d. rate produces £17,000. Does he expect us to find £8,500 for medical and sanatorium benefits in that city? We get no answer to these questions, and it is really desirable that we should have them answered. If the Chancellor of the Exchequer would consider the matter, he would find that he would be giving great comfort to the ratepayers if he would limit the rate. He could do it without limiting his resources. His resources would still be sufficient. I am a municipal man, and I know how heavily the rates fall upon shopkeepers and other people in the towns. Rates fall sometimes on those who ought not to bear them, and if they knew that this rate was to be limited to a ½d. it would be some consolation to them. We have to remember that while there is control by the Treasury, we know very well what that control is worth. The control of the municipalities is very small control, because, as a rule, the ratepayer is a "compound" ratepayer. He pays no rates whatever. The expenditure may go up or down, but it does not concern him. He has only to pay his rent, and it does not affect him whether the rates go up or down. But it does affect the large ratepayers in the City who have to pay heavy rates. If the sum of £450,000 is not sufficient for the purpose, let us know it, because if we do not know it we are going about in the dark, and it is well that the community should know to what extent they are going to be committed.
Mr. CASSEL: I am one of those who regret profoundly that this Bill has been put upon the rates at all. If any argument were required for not charging the rates with any part of the cost it has been supplied by the Chancellor of the Exchequer. He admitted that from the moment the surplus was being found by the ratepayers, they were the people who were interested in economy, and they were the people who ought to have control. [An HON. MEMBER: "They will get control."] It is precisely because I think that that is absolutely impossible that I am opposed to calling on the rates. Is there anyone here who will really say that the control of these health committees is really
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going to be in the hands of the ratepayers? It is quite impossible, and for that reason, if for no other, this ought not to be put on the rates.
Mr. BONAR LAW: In a quarter of an hour the axe is going to fall on our proceedings, and I feel bound to call the attention of the House to what has happened. When the fateful hour comes you will put 470 questions from the Chair. Many of my hon. Friends behind me desire, as a protest against the way in which this Bill is being carried through the House, to take a Division on every one of these questions. If they took that course we should be kept here, as nearly as I can calculate, until half-past seven on Saturday night, and I am bound to say that never in any circumstances, so far as my acquaintance of the House of Commons goes, would such a protest be more justified than at the present moment. I am going to express the hope that they will not find it necessary to take that course. [HON. MEMBERS: "Why?"] But I am bound to say that, if I thought that the country did not already realise what is going on, I should myself have been the first to adopt that method of calling attention to it. It is quite evident to every Member of the House that it is quite impossible for me, with my moderate command of strong language, to employ any words which can adequately describe the position in which we find ourselves.
It is perfectly obvious to every Member of the House that the House of Commons has ceased to exist as a legislative assembly. Nothing approaching this has ever happened in the House of Commons, and in my belief nothing coming within a thousand miles of it has ever happened in any legislative assembly in the world. The course which the Government have taken would have been in my opinion an utterly unjustifiable one on any measure, but it seems incredible that any Government should have adopted such a course in regard to a measure which affects directly and personally almost man, woman and child in the United Kingdom. Of these 470 questions, some have never been discussed at any stage. Hardly any of them have been discussed at all at this stage of our proceedings, and the way in which the Government have been pouring Amendments into the House, as if they were coming out of some patent machine, shows that even they themselves from hour to hour do not know in the least what they are doing. We are living under

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a form of despotic Government which is far more arbitrary than ever has been found in the United Kingdom at any period of its history. I said that there was nothing like it so far as my knowledge goes in any legislative assembly, but it has just occurred to me that something a little like it did happen in France before the Revolution. There was a Parliament there, and when it did not agree with the decision of the Government the King came and held what he called a bed of justice, and his arrival meant that they were to register whatever decrees he announced. We are now holding our bed of justice, or injustice. We have our despot. I quite admit that he is, or tries to be, a benevolent despot. I am perfectly certain that that is his wish. But anyone who is acquainted with history knows that injury is done far more by ill-considered than by wicked action, and of this no better proof could be found than the course which the Government have taken in regard to this Bill. If anything were possible to add to what in my opinion, without using strong language, which I do not command, is an outrage upon us as Members of the House of Commons and an insult to those who send us here to represent them, if anything were needed to add to this, it is the knowledge of every man in this House that this course is taken not by the decision of the Government themselves, but by command of the Gentlemen below the Gangway. That, in other words, the intimate and not political interest, but the personal and direct interest of every member of the population of these islands is sacrificed, in order that there may be no obstacle in the path of Home Rule next year.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: Before I had the privilege of becoming a Minister of the Crown I was for fifteen years in opposition, and I have got accustomed to very much worse guillotines than this. [HON. MEMBERS: "When?"] One was on the Education Bill, when the whole finance of the Bill was altered under the guillotine, and the other was on the Licensing Bill, when the whole property in licences which belonged to the public was confiscated in the interests of the supporters of the Government—a gross act of robbery and spoliation. And I also remember perfectly well scenes of this kind, in which we protested against these acts. I have been a very moderate, a very temperate and a very reluctant pupil of the right hon. Gentleman who then sat on this bench.
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May I also call the attention of the right hon. Gentleman—probably he has not had time to look into these things—to the fast that when he talks of 470 Amendments and Divisions, the majority of the Amendments are promises made in Committee to hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite. Some of them are purely drafting Amendments.
If the right hon. Gentleman would look at page 52 he will see after "custom" to insert "or practice." I had some anticipation of the suggestions made by the right hon. Gentleman, and I went through the Amendment, and I also made up my mind that these Amendments are almost entirely Amendments asked for by hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite. There were just fifteen or twenty which we were anxious for, purely because of promises we made to doctors and friendly societies, and we have given hon. Gentlemen opposite the opportunity of voting against them if they choose. As for the rest, most of them are drafting Amendments, such as "leave out 'ship or any ship,' and insert 'ship or ships.'" It is perfectly ridiculous to suggest that these are important Amendments affecting vitally any great interest. [HON. MEMBERS: "Domestic servants."] There is no alteration proposed with regard to the position of domestic servants. There is absolutely no Amendment out of the lot that alters in the slightest degree the present position of either employer or employé, except to the extent of promises which I have given hon. Gentlemen opposite, and if I had declined to put them down what would they have said? They would have said that it was a breach of faith on our part.
Lord HUGH CECIL: It is the Guillotine to which we object.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: The Noble Lord did not object to it when it suited his purpose. He was one of the hottest advocates of the Guillotine then. Here we have spent nearly fifty days in Committee on a Bill which is supposed to be non-contentious, on a Bill which is accepted—[HON. MEMBERS: "No; the principle"]—and after forty or fifty days of discussion of a Bill which is accepted by both parties in principle, and the principle of which is compulsory contribution—[HON. MEMBERS: "No."] If that is not accepted then you ought to vote against the Third Reading. [HON. MEMBERS: "Wait and see."] I will. We can all wait and see what will happen.

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And, it being half-past seven of the clock, Mr. Speaker proceeded, pursuant to the Order of the House of 25th October, successively to put forthwith the Question already proposed from the Chair.
Question put, "That the Clause be read a second time."
The House divided: Ayes, 146; Noes, 220.

Division No. 414.]

AYES.

[7.30 p.m.

Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

Gardner, Ernest

Newman, John R. P.

Aitken, Sir William Max

Gastrell, Major W. Houghton

Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield)

Archer-Shee, Major Martin

Gibbs, G. A.

Nield, Herbert

Ashley, Wilfrid W.

Gilmour, Capt. John

O'Grady, James

Astor, Waldorf

Goldman Charles Sydney

Paget, Almeric Hugh

Baird, John Lawrence

Goldstone, Frank

Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington)

Balcarres, Lord

Grant, J. A.

Perkins, Walter F.

Baldwin, Stanley

Greene, Walter Raymond

Pole-Carew, Sir R.

Banbury, Sir Frederick George

Gretton, John

Pryce-Jones, Colonel E.

Banner, John S. Harmood-

Gwynne, R. S. (Sussex, Eastbourne)

Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel

Baring, Maj. Hon. Guy V. (Winchester)

Hamilton, Lord C. J. (Kensington, S.)

Remnant, James Farquharson

Barlow, Montague (Salford, South)

Hardie, J. Keir (Merthyr Tydvil)

Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall)

Barrie, H. T. (Londonderry, N.)

Harris, Henry Percy

Rolleston, Sir John

Bathurst, Hon. Allen B. (Glouc, E.)

Harrison-Broadley, H. B.

Royds, Edmund

Bathurst, Charles (Wilts, Wilton)

Helmsley, Viscount

Rutherford, John (Lancs., Darwen)

Beach, Hon. Michael Hugh Hicks

Henderson, Major H. (Berks., Abingdon)

Rutherford, Watson (L'pool, W. Derby)

Beckett, Hon. Gervase

Hickman, Col. Thomas E.

Samuel, Sir Harry (Norwood)

Benn, Arthur Shirley (Plymouth)

Hill, Sir Clement L.

Sanderson, Lancelot

Benn, Ion Hamilton (Greenwich)

Hills, John Waller

Smith, Harold (Warrington)

Beresford, Lord Charles

Hoare, S. J. G.

Snowden, Philip

Bigland, Alfred

Hohler, Gerald Fitzroy

Spear, Sir John Ward

Bird, A.

Hope, Harry (Bute)

Stanier, Beville

Boscawen, Sir Arthur S. T. Griffith-

Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield)

Stanley, Hon. G. F. (Preston)

Boyle, W. Lewis (Norfolk, Mid.)

Horne, W. E. (Surrey, Guildford)

Starkey, John Ralph

Boyton, James

Horner, Andrew Long

Stewart, Gershom

Bridgeman, William Clive

Houston, Robert Paterson

Swift, Rigby

Burn, Colonel C. R.

Hume-Williams, W. E.

Sykes, Mark (Hull, Central)

Butcher, John George

Hunt, Rowland

Talbot, Lord Edmund

Campion, W. R.

Ingleby, Holcombe

Taylor, John W. (Durham)

Carlile, Sir Edward Hildred

Jessel, Captain H. M.

Terrell, George (Wilts, N. W.)

Cassel, Felix

Jowett, Frederick William

Terrell, Henry (Gloucester)

Cator, John

Kimber, Sir Henry

Thompson, Robert (Belfast, North)

Cautley, Henry Strother

Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement

Thomson, W. Mitchell- (Down, North)

Cecil, Lord Hugh (Oxford University)

Kyffin-Taylor, G.

Thorne, William (West Ham)

Cecil, Lord R. (Herts, Hitchin)

Lane-Fox, G. R.

Thynne, Lord Alexander

Chaloner, Col. R. G. W.

Lansbury, George

Valentia, Viscount

Clynes, John R.

Law, Rt. Hon. A. Bonar (Bootle)

Ward, Arnold S. (Herts, Watford)

Courthope, George Loyd

Locker-Lampson, G. (Salisbury)

Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid.)

Croft, H. P.

Lockwood, Rt. Hon. Lt.-Col. A. R.

Wheler, Granville C. H.

Denniss, E. R. B.

Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. A. (S. Geo. Han. S.)

Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.)

Dickson, Rt. Hon. C. S.

MacCaw, Wm. J. MacGeagh

Willoughoy, Major Hon. Claude

Du Cros, Arthur Philip

Mackinder, Halford J.

Wood, John (Stalybridge

Duke, Henry Edward

Macmaster, Donald

Worthington-Evans, L.

Eyres-Monsell, B. M.

McNeill, Ronald (Kent, St. Augustine)

Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-

Falle, Bertram Godfray

Magnus, Sir Philip

Yate, Col. C. E.

Fell, Arthur

Mason, James F. (Windsor)

Younger, Sir George

Finlay, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert

Mildmay, Francis Bingham

Flannery, Sir J. Fortescue

Morrison-Bell, Capt. E. F. (Ashburton)

TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr. Hayes Fisher and Sir A. Cripps.

Fletcher, John Samuel (Hampstead)

Mount, William Arthur

Forster, Henry William

Newdegate, F. A.

NOES.

Abraham, William (Dublin Harbour)

Boyle, Daniel (Mayo, North)

Davies, Ellis William (Eifion)

Acland, Francis Dyke

Bryce, J. Annan

Davies, Timothy (Lincs., Louth)

Addison, Dr. Christopher

Burns, Rt. Hon. John

Dawes, J. A.

Agnew, Sir George William

Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas

Delany, William

Allen, Arthur Acland (Dumbartonshire)

Buxton, Rt. Hon. Sydney C. (Poplar)

Denman, Hon. R. D.

Allen Charles Peter (Stroud)

Byles, Sir William Pollard

Devlin, Joseph

Anderson, Andrew Macbeth

Carr-Gomm, H. W.

Dillon, John

Baker, Harold T. (Accrington)

Cawley, H. T. (Lancs., Heywood)

Donelan, Captain A.

Baker, Joseph A. (Finsbury, E.)

Chancellor, Henry George

Doris, William

Baring, Sir Godfrey (Barnstaple)

Chapple, Dr. William Allen

Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness)

Barnes, George N.

Clough, William

Edwards, Enoch (Hanley)

Barran, Sir John N. (Hawick B.)

Collins, Stephen (Lambeth)

Edwards, John Hugh (Glamorgan, Mid.)

Beauchamp, Sir Edward

Compton-Rickett, Rt. Hon. Sir J.

Elibank, Rt. Hon. Master of

Beck, Arthur Cecil

Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.

Elverston, Sir Harold

Benn, W. W. (T. H'mts, St. George)

Cotton, William Francis

Essex, Richard Walter

Bentham, George Jackson

Cowan, W. H.

Esslemont, George Birnie

Bethell, Sir John Henry

Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth)

Farrell, James Patrick

Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine

Crawshay-Williams, Eliot

Fenwick, Rt. Hon. Charles

Boland, John Pius

Crumley, Patrick

Ferens, Thomas Robinson

Booth, Frederick Handel

Dalziel, Sir James H. (Kirkcaldy)

Flavin, Michael Joseph

Bowerman, Charles W.

Davies, David (Montgomery Co.)

George, Rt. Hon. D. Lloyd

Gill, Alfred Henry

M'Callum, John M.

Roberts, Sir J. H. Denbighs.)

Gladstone, W. G. C.

M'Curdy, C. A.

Robertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradford)

Glanville, Harold James

McKenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald

Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside)

Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford

M'Laren, Hon. F. W. S. (Lincs., Spalding)

Robinson, Sidney

Greenwood, Granville G. (Peterborough)

Markham, Sir Arthur Basil

Roche, Augustine (Louth)

Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward

Marks, Sir George Croydon

Roche, John (Galway, E.)

Griffith, Ellis J.

Masterman, C. F. G.

Roe, Sir Thomas

Guest, Hon. Major C. H. C. (Pembroke)

Meehan, Patrick A. (Queens County)

Rose, Sir Charles Day

Guest, Hon. Frederick E. (Dorset, E.)

Millar, James Duncan

Rowlands, James

Gwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway)

Molloy, Michael

Rowntree, Arnold

Hackett, John

Montagu, Hon. E. S.

Russell, Rt. Hon. Thomas W.

Hancock, John George

Mooney, John J.

Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees)

Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose)

Morgan, George Hay

Scanlan, Thomas

Harmsworth, Cecil (Luton, Beds.)

Worrell Philip

Schwann, Rt. Hon. Sir C. E.

Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale)

Morton, Alpheus Cleophas

Sheehy, David

Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, West)

Muldoon, John

Sherwell, Arthur James

Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N. E.)

Munro, Robert

Shortt, Edward

Haslam, James (Derbyshire)

Nannetti, Joseph P.

Simon, Sir John Allsebrook

Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth)

Neilson, Francis

Smith, Albert (Lancs., Clitheroe)

Havelock-Allan, Sir Henry

Nicholson, Charles N. (Doncaster)

Smith, H. B. L. (Northampton)

Hayden, John Patrick

Nolan, Joseph

Soames, Arthur Wellesley

Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

Norman, Sir Henry

Spicer, Sir Albert

Higham, John Sharp

Norton, Capt. Cecil W.

Stanley, Albert (Staffs, N. W.)

Hinds, John

Nugent, Sir Walter Richard

Strauss, Edward A. (Southwark, West)

Hobhouse, Rt. Hon. Charles E. H.

Nuttall, Harry

Summers, James Woolley

Hodge, John

O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

Sutherland, J. E.

Horne, C. Silvester (Ipswich)

O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)

Sutton, John E.

Howard, Hon. Geoffrey

O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)

Tennant, Harold John

Hudson, Walter

O'Doherty, Philip

Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.)

Hunter, W. (Govan)

O'Donnell, Thomas

Thomas, James Henry (Derby)

Isaacs, Rt. Hon. Sir Rufus

O'Kelly, Edward P. (Wicklow, W.)

Toulmin, Sir George

John, Edward Thomas

O'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, S.)

Trevelyan, Charles Philips

Jones, Sir D. Brynmor (Swansea)

Palmer, Godfrey Mark

Ure, Rt. Hon. Alexander

Jones, Edgar R. (Merthyr Tydvil)

Parker, James (Halifax)

Walsh, Stephen (Lancs., Ince)

Jones, Leif Stratten (Notts, Rushcliffe)

Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leeks)

Walters, John Tudor

Jones, William (Carnarvonshire)

Philipps, Col. Ivor (Southampton)

Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent)

Jones, William S. Glyn- (Stepney)

Phillips, John (Longford, S.)

Wardle, G. J.

Joyce, Michael

Pointer, Joseph

Wason, Rt. Hon. E. (Clackmannan)

Kellaway, Frederick George

Pollard, Sir George H.

Wason, J. Cathcart (Orkney)

Kennedy, Vincent Paul

Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H.

Webb, H.

Kilbride, Denis

Power, Patrick Joseph

White, J. Dundas (Glasgow, Tradeston)

King, J. (Somerset, N.)

Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central)

Whitehouse, John Howard

Lamb, Ernest Henry

Price, Sir Robert J. (Norfolk, E.)

Whyte, A. F. (Perth)

Lambert, George (Devon, S. Molton)

Priestley, Sir W. E. B. (Bradford, E.)

Wiles, Thomas

Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, West)

Pringle, William M. R.

Wilkie, Alexander

Lawson, Sir W. (Cumb'rld, Cockerm'th)

Radford, G. H.

William's, John (Glamorgan)

Lewis, John Herbert

Raffan, Peter Wilson

Williams, Penry (Middlesbrough)

Lough, Rt. Hon. Thomas

Raphael, Sir Herbert H.

Wilson, Rt. Hon. J. W. (Worcs., N.)

Lundon, Thomas

Rea, Walter Russell (Scarborough)

Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)

Lyell, Charles Henry

Reddy, Michael

Wood, Rt. Hon. T. McKinnon (Glasgow)

Lynch, A. A.

Redmond, John E. (Waterford)

Macdonald, J. Ramsay (Leicester)

Rendall, Athelstan

TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr. Gulland and Mr. Dudley Ward.

Macnamara, Rt. Hon. Dr. T. J.

Richardson, Albion (Peckham)

Macpherson, James Ian

Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)

Mr. SPEAKERthen proceeded successively to put forthwith the Question on any Amendments moved by the Government of which notice had been given, necessary to dispose of the business to be concluded at half-past seven of the clock this evening.

Part I.
  NATIONAL HEALTH INSURANCE.

    CLAUSE 1.—(Insured Persons.)
    (1) Subject to the provisions of this Act, all persons who are employed within the meaning of this Part of this Act shall be, and any persons who are not so employed but who possess the qualifications hereinafter mentioned may be, insured in manner provided in this Part of this Act, and all persons so insured (in this Act called "insured persons") shall be entitled
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    in the manner and subject to the conditions provided in this Act to the benefits in respect of health insurance and prevention of sickness conferred by this Part of this Act.

    (2) The persons employed within the meaning of this Part of this Act (in this Act referred to as "employed contributors") shall include all persons of either sex, whether British subjects or not, who are engaged in any of the employments specified in Part I. of the First Schedule to this Act, not being employments specified in Part II. of that Schedule:

    Provided that the Insurance Commissioners hereinafter constituted may, with the approval of the Treasury, by a special order made in manner hereinafter provided, provide for including amongst the persons employed within the meaning of this Part of this Act any persons engaged

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    in any of the excepted employments specified in part 2 of the said Schedule.
    (3) The persons not employed within the meaning of this Part of this Act who are entitled to become insured persons include all persons who either—

    (a) are engaged in some regular occupation and are wholly or mainly dependent for their livelihood on the earnings derived by them from that occupation; or

    (b) have been employed contributors for a period of five years or upwards;

    and the persons possessing such qualifications who become insured persons are in this Act referred to as voluntary contributors: Provided always that no person shall be entitled to become an insured person under the provisions of this Sub-section whose total income from all sources exceeds one hundred and sixty pounds:
    Provided that where a person who has been a voluntary contributor for five years or upwards ceases to possess such qualifications as aforesaid he shall not by reason thereof be disentitled to continue to be insured under this Part of this Act.
    (4) Except as hereinafter provided nothing in this Section shall require or authorise a person over the age of sixty-five years not previously insured under this Part of this Act to become so insured.
    Amendments made: In Sub-section (1), after the word "persons" ["subject to the provisions of this Act, all persons"], insert the words "of the age of sixteen and upwards."
    After the word "any" ["and any persons who"], insert the word "such."
    In Sub-section (2), after the word "Schedule" ["part 2 of the said Schedule"] insert the words, "either unconditionally or subject to such conditions as may be specified in the order."
    In Sub-section (3), leave out the word "become" ["become insured persons"], and insert instead thereof the word "be."
    In paragraph (b), leave out the words "employed contributors," and insert instead thereof the words "insured persons."
    After the word "become" ["who become insured persons"], insert the words "or continue to be."
    Leave out the words "shall be entitled to become an insured person under the provisions of this Sub-section."
    After the word "pounds" ["one hundred and sixty pounds"], insert the words "a year shall be entitled to be a voluntary contributor unless he has been insured under this part of this Act for a period of five years or upwards."
    Leave out the words "Provided that where a person who has been a voluntary contributor for five years or upwards ceases to possess such qualifications as aforesaid he shall not by reason thereof be disentitled to continue to be insured under this Part of this Act."
    In Sub-section (4), leave out the words "over the age of sixty-five years," and insert instead thereof the words "of the age of sixty-five or upwards."—[Mr. Lloyd George.]

    CLAUSE 2.—(Exclusion from Insurance of Persons under Sixteen.)
    It shall not be lawful for any person under the age of sixteen to become an insured person, and no such person howsoever employed shall be deemed to be employed within the meaning of this Part of this Act.
    Amendment made: Leave out Clause 2.—[Mr. Lloyd George.]

    CLAUSE 3.—(Exemptions.)
    (1) Where any person employed within the meaning of this Part of this Act proves that he is either—

    (a) in receipt of any pension or income of the annual value of twenty-six pounds or upwards not dependent upon his personal exertions; or

    (b) ordinarily dependent upon some other person,

    he shall be entitled to a certificate exempting him from the liability to become or to continue to be insured under this Part of this Act.
    (2) All claims for exemption shall be made to, and certificates of exemption granted by, the Insurance Commissioners in the prescribed manner: Provided that the regulations of the Insurance Commissioners may provide for claims under this Section being made to and certificates granted by approved societies and local health committees hereinafter constituted.
    Amendments made: In paragraph (b), after the word "ordinarily," insert the words "and mainly."
    After the word "dependent," insert the words "for his livelihood."
    After the word "manner" ["prescribed manner"], insert instead thereof the words "and subject to the prescribed conditions."
    After the words last inserted, insert the words "and may be so made and granted before as well as after the commencement of this Act,"—[Mr. Lloyd George.]

    CLAUSE 4.—(Contributions by Insured Persons Employers, and the Treasury.)
    Except as otherwise provided by this Act, the funds for providing the benefits conferred by this Part of this Act and defraying the expenses of the administration of those benefits shall be derived as to seven-ninths (or, in the case of women, three-fourths) thereof from contributions made by or in respect of such contributors by themselves or their employers, and as to the remaining two-ninths (or, in the case of women, one-quarter) thereof from moneys provided by Parliament.
    Amendment made: Leave out the word "such" ["of such contributors by themselves"], and insert instead thereof the word "the."—[Mr. Lloyd George.]

    CLAUSE 5.—(Rates and Rules for Contributions by Employed Contributors and their Employers.)
    (1) The contributions payable in respect of employed contributors shall be at the rate specified in the Second Schedule to this Act (hereinafter referred to as the employed rate), and shall comprise contributions by the contributors and contributions by their employers at the rates specified in that Schedule, and shall be payable at weekly or other prescribed intervals.
    (2) The employer shall, in the first instance, pay both the contributions payable by himself (in this Act referred to as the employer's contributions), and also on behalf of the employed contributor the contributions payable by such contributor, and shall be entitled to recover from the contributor by deduction from his wages or otherwise the amount of the contributions so paid by him on behalf of the contributor in accordance with the rules set out in the Third Schedule to this Act.
    (3) Contributions in respect of employed contributors shall cease to be payable on their attaining the age of seventy.
    (4) The employer of a person who though employed within the meaning of this Part of this Act is not insured under this Part of this Act by reason either—

    (a) that, not having previously been insured, he has become employed within the meaning of this Act after attaining the age of sixty-five; or

    (b) that he has obtained and still holds a certificate of exemption under this Act;

    shall be liable to pay the like contributions as would have been payable as employer's contributions if such person had been an employed contributor, and such contributions shall be carried to such account and dealt with in such manner as may be prescribed.
    Amendments made: In Sub-section (1), after the word "in" ["specified in the second"], insert the words "Part I. of."
    After the word "that" ["specified in that Schedule"] insert the words "Part of that."
    At the end of Sub-section (1), add the words,
    Provided that in the case of an employed contributor of the age of twenty-one or upwards whose remuneration does not include the provision of board and lodging by the employer and the rate of whose remuneration does not exceed two shillings a working day, such part of the contributions payable in respect of him as is specified in the said Schedule shall be paid out of moneys provided by Parliament.
    In Sub-section (4), paragraph (a), after the word "been" ["not having previously been"], insert the word "an."
    After the word "insured" ["previously been insured"], insert the word "person."
    After the word "of" ["of this Act"], insert the words "this Part of."
    In paragraph (b), after the word "under" ["under this Act"], insert the words "this Part of."
    After the word "prescribed" ["in such manner as may be prescribed"], insert the words,
    by regulations made by the Insurance Commissioners, and those regulations may provide for applying the sums standing to the credit of the account, or any part thereof, for the benefit of any

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    persons in respect of whom contributions have been so paid, in the event of such persons subsequently becoming employed contributors.—[Mr. Lloyd George.]

    CLAUSE 6.—(Part Payment of Contributions by the State in the Case of Low-paid Labour.)
    In the case of employed contributors over the age of twenty-one whose wages or other remuneration do not exceed two shillings a day, and such remuneration does not include the provision of board and lodging by their employer, there shall be paid out of moneys provided by Parliament towards contributions payable in respect of them the sum of one penny per week in manner provided by the Second Schedule to this Act.
    Amendment made: Leave out Clause 6.—[Mr. Lloyd George.]

    CLAUSE 7.—(Rates and Rules for Contributions by Voluntary Contributors.)
    (1) The contributions payable by voluntary contributors shall be at the rate appropriate to their age at the date of their entry into insurance ascertained in accordance with a table to be prepared by the Insurance Commissioners (hereinafter referred to as the voluntary rate) and shall be paid by the voluntary contributors at weekly or other prescribed intervals:
    Provided that—

    (a) In the case of a person who comes into insurance within six months after the commencement of this Act, the voluntary rate shall, if he is below the age of forty-five at the date of coming into insurance, be the same as the employed rate, and if he is above that age, be such rate, ascertained according to a table to be prepared by the Insurance Commissioners, as, having regard to his age at that date, will be sufficient to cover seven-ninths, or in the case of a woman three-fourths, of the benefits conferred by this Part of the Act;

    (b) Where a person, having been an employed contributor for five years or upwards, becomes a voluntary contributor the rate of contribution payable by him shall continue to be the employed rate.

    (2) Contributions by voluntary contributors shall cease to be payable on their attaining the age of seventy.
    Amendments made: Leave out the word "comes" ["comes into insurance"], and insert instead thereof the word "enters."
    Leave out the word "coming" ["date of coming into"], and insert instead thereof the word "entering."
    Leave out the words "above that age" ["if he is above that age"], and insert instead thereof the words "of the age of forty-five or upwards."—[Mr. Lloyd George.]

    CLAUSE 8.—(Change from Voluntary Rate to Employed Rate and vice versa.)
    (1) Where an insured person has become a member of an approved society as a voluntary contributor, the rate of contributions payable in respect of him shall, notwithstanding that he becomes employed within the meaning of this Part of this Act, remain the voluntary rate, unless at any time after becoming so employed he gives notice in the prescribed manner of his wish to be transferred to the employed rate.
    (2) Where he gives such notice the rate payable in respect of him shall be the employed rate, but in such case the rate of sickness benefit payable in respect of him shall be such reduced rate as would have been payable had he not previously been insured, subject to such allowance as may according to tables prepared by the Insurance Commissioners represent the value at that time of the contributions previously paid by him.
    (3) Where he does not give such notice, and until he does so, the contributions payable by his employer in respect of him during any period of employment within the meaning of this Part of this Act shall be the same as if he had been transferred to the employed rate, and the contributions so paid by the employer shall be treated as in part satisfaction of the contributions at the voluntary rate payable by the contributor, and if the contributor fails to pay the balance he shall be deemed to be in arrear to that extent.
    (4) Where an employed contributor within five years from his entry into insurance ceases to be employed within the meaning of this Part of this Act and becomes a voluntary contributor, he shall be deemed to be in arrear, as from the date when he became a voluntary contributor, to the amount of the difference between the aggregate contributions paid in respect of him as an employed contributor and the aggregate of the contributions

    665
    which would have been payable by him had he originally become a voluntary contributor, and the difference between any reserve value which is credited to the approved society of which he is a member in respect of him and the reserve value (if any) which would have been credited to that society in respect of him had he originally become a voluntary contributor shall be cancelled.
    Amendments made: In Sub-section (2), leave out the word "allowance" ["subject to such allowance"], and insert instead thereof the word "addition."
    In Sub-section (4), after the word "he" ["as from the date when he"], insert the word "so."
    After the word "paid" ["aggregate contributions paid"], insert the words "by or."
    Leave out the words "as an employed contributor" ["in respect of him as an employed contributor"], and instead thereof the words "since his entry into insurance."
    Leave out the words "originally become" ["originally become a voluntary contributor"], and insert instead thereof the words "throughout been."—[Mr. Lloyd George.]

    CLAUSE 9.—Power to make Regulations for the Payment of Contributions.
    Subject to the provisions of this Act, the Insurance Commissioners may make regulations providing for any matters incidental to the payment and collection of contributions payable under this Act, and in particular for—

    (a) payment of contributions by means of adhesive or other stamps affixed to or impressed upon books or cards, and regulating the manner, times, and conditions in, at, and under which such stamps are to be affixed or impressed;

    (b) the entry in or upon books or cards of particulars of contributions paid and benefits distributed in the case of the insured persons to whom such books or cards belong;

    (c) the issue sale custody or delivery up of books or cards and the replacement of books or cards which have been lost destroyed or defaced.

    Amendments made: After the word "under" ["payable under this Act"], insert the words "this Part of."
    In paragraph (a), after the word "contributions" ["payment of contributions"] tions"], insert the word "whether."
    After the word "cards" ["books or cards"], insert the words "or otherwise.
    After the word "impressed" ["impressed upon books"], insert the words "or payments are otherwise to be made."
    Leave out the word "or" ["the issue, sale or delivery"], and insert instead thereof the words "production and."—[Mr. Lloyd George.]

    CLAUSE 10.—(Benefits.)
    (1) Subject to the provisions of this Act, the benefits conferred by this Part of this Act upon insured persons are—

    (a) Medical treatment and attendance, including the provision of proper and sufficient medicines, and such medical and surgical appliances as may be prescribed by regulations to be made by the Insurance Commissioners (in this Act called "medical benefit");

    (b) Treatment in sanatoria or other institutions or otherwise when suffering from tuberculosis, or such other diseases as the Local Government Board with the approval of the Treasury may appoint (in this Act called "sanatorium benefit");

    (c) Periodical payments whilst rendered unfit to provide their own maintenance by some specific disease or by bodily or mental disablement, of which notice has been given, commencing from the fourth day after being so rendered unfit, and continuing for a period not exceeding twenty-six weeks (in this Act called "sickness benefit");

    (d) In the case of the disease or disablement continuing after the determination of sickness benefit, periodical payments so long as so rendered unfit by the disease or disablement (in this Act called "disablement benefit");

    (e) Payment in the case of the confinement of the wife of an insured person, who is not herself an insured person, or of a woman who is an insured person, of a sum of thirty shillings (in this Act called "maternity benefit");

    (f) In the case of persons entitled under this Part of this Act to any of the further benefits mentioned in Part II. of the Fourth Scedule to this Act

    667
    (in this Act called "additional benefits") such of those benefits as they may themselves be entitled to.

    (2) Subject to the provisions of this Part of this Act, the rates of sickness benefit and disablement benefit to which insured persons are entitled shall be the rates specified in Part I. of the Fourth Schedule to this Act.
    (3) In the case of insured persons who have attained the age of seventy the right to sickness benefit and disablement benefit shall cease.
    (4) No insured person shall be entitled to any benefit during any period when he is resident either temporarily or permanently outside the British Islands:
    Provided that if a person is temporarily resident in the Isle of Man or the Channel Islands he shall, whilst so resident, be entitled to benefits other than medical benefit, and that if with the consent of the society or committee by which the benefit is administered, a person is temporarily resident outside the United Kingdom elsewhere than in the Isle of Man or the Channel Islands, the society or committee may allow him, whilst so resident, to continue to receive sickness or disablement benefit, and that a person resident out of the United Kingdom shall not be disentitled to maternity benefit in respect of the confinement of his wife, if his wife at the time of her confinement is resident in the United Kingdom.
    (5) Where an insured person, having been in receipt of sickness benefit recovers from the disease or disablement in respect of which he receives such benefit, any subsequent disease or disablement, or a recurrence of the same disease or disablement, shall be deemed to be a continuation of the previous disease or disablement, unless in the meanwhile a period of at least twelve months has elapsed, and at least fifty weekly contributions have been paid by or in respect of him:
    Provided that the benefit in respect of such subsequent or recurrent disease or disablement shall not commence to be payable before the date at which it would, apart from this provision, have commenced.
    (6) Where a woman is herself entitled to maternity benefit she shall not be entitled to sickness benefit, disablement benefit, or medical benefit in respect of or consequent upon her confinement at and
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    for a period of four weeks after her confinement:
    Provided that this Sub-section shall not affect the right of such a woman if married or, if being a widow, she is confined of a posthumous child, to sickness benefit or disablement benefit during such period.
    (7) Notwithstanding anything in this Part of this Act, no insured person shall be entitled—

    (a) to medical benefit during the first six months after the commencement of this Act;

    (b) to sickness benefit unless and until twenty-six weeks have elapsed since his entry into insurance, and at least twenty-six contributions have been paid by or in respect of him;

    (c) to disablement benefit unless and until one hundred and four weeks, have elapsed since his entry into insurance, and at least one hundred and four contributions have been paid by or in respect of him;

    (d) to maternity benefit unless and until twenty-six, or in the case of a voluntary contributor fifty-two weeks have elapsed since his entry into insurance, and at least twenty-six, or in the case of a voluntary contributor fifty-two, contributions have been paid by or in respect of him.

    (8) As soon as a sum has been accumulated by investment sufficient to provide interest at three per cent. per annum on the amounts then standing to the credit of all approved societies the benefits pay able to insured persons under this Part of this Act shall be extended in such manner as Parliament may determine.
    Amendments made: In paragraph (c) leave out the words "unfit to provide their own maintenance" and insert instead thereof the words "incapable of work."
    Leave out the word "unfit" ["so rendered unfit"] and insert instead thereof the words "incapable of work."
    In paragraph (d), leave out the word "unfit" ["rendered unfit"] and insert instead thereof the words "incapable of work."
    In paragraph (e), after the word "wife" ["confinement of the wife"], insert the words "or, where the child is a posthumous child, of the widow."
    Leave out the words "who is not herself an insured person."
    Leave out the word "a" and insert instead thereof the words "any other."
    In paragraph (f), leave out the word "themselves" ["may themselves"].
    In Sub-section (4), leave out the words "British Islands" and insert instead thereof the words "United Kingdom."
    After the word "shall" ["Channel Islands he shall"] insert the word "not.
    Leave out the word "entitled" ["entitled to benefits"] and insert instead thereof the word "disentitled."
    In Sub-section (5), leave out the words "Provided that the benefit in respect of such subsequent or recurrent disease or disablement shall not commence to be payable before the date at which it would, apart from this provision, have commenced."
    In Sub-section (6) leave out the words, "is herself entitled to maternity benefit she shall not be entitled to sickness benefit, disablement benefit, or medical benefit in respect of or consequent upon her confinement at and for a period of four weeks after her confinement:
    Provided that this Sub-section shall not affect the right of such a woman if married or, if being a widow, she is confined of a posthumous child, to sickness benefit or disablement benefit during such period,"
    And insert instead thereof the words, confined of a child is herself an insured person, and is a married woman, or, if the child is a posthumous child, a widow, she shall be entitled to sickness benefit (as the case may be) in respect of her confinement in addition to the maternity benefit to which she or her husband may be entitled, but, save as aforesaid, a woman shall not be entitled to sickness benefit or disablement benefit for a period of four weeks after her confinement unless suffering from disease or disablement not connected directly or indirectly with her confinement.
    Medical benefit shall not include any right to medical treatment or attendance in respect of a confinement.
    After Sub-section (6) insert,
    (7) Where a pension or superannuation allowance payable in whole or in part as an additional benefit under this Part of this Act is provided, it may be made a condition of the grant of the pension or allowance that a member of the society shall, whilst in receipt of such pension or allowance, be excluded in whole or in part
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    from his right to sickness benefit and disablement benefit, or to either of such benefits.
    In Sub-section (7), paragraph (b), after the words "twenty-six," insert the word "weekly."
    In paragraph (c), after the words "four" ["one hundred and four"], insert the word "weekly."
    In paragraph (d), after the words "fifty-two" ["contributor fifty-two"], insert the word "weekly."
    In Sub-section (8), leave out the words "a sum has been accumulated by investment sufficient to provide interest at three per cent. per annum on the amounts then standing to the credit of all approved societies"; and insert instead thereof the words,
    the sums credited to approved societies as reserve values in respect of persons who enter into insurance within one year after the commencement of this Act have been written off in manner provided by this part of this Act.—[Mr. Lloyd George.]

    CLAUSE 11.—(Reduced Rates of Benefit in Certain Cases.
    (1) In the case of insured persons who are under the ago of twenty-one years and unmarried, sickness benefit and disablement benefit shall be at the reduced rates specified in Table B. in Part I. of the Fourth Schedule to this Act:
    Provided that where any such person, being over the age of sixteen and a member of an approved society, proves that one or more members of his family are wholly or mainly dependent upon him, the society shall dispense with such reduction.
    (2) The rates of sickness and disablement benefits provided under this Act may in any case, where the rate of sickness benefit or disablement benefit (as the case may be) exceeds two-thirds of the usual rate of wages or other remuneration earned by insured persons, be reduced to such an extent as the society or committee administering the benefit, with the consent of the Insurance Commissioners, determines; but where such reduction is made provision shall be made by the society or committee, with the like consent, for the grant of one or more additional benefits of a value equivalent to such reduction.
    (3) Sickness benefit shall be reduced in accordance with Table C in Part I. of the

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    Fourth Schedule to this Act in the case of any insured person who becomes an employed contributor within one year after the commencement of this Act, and is at the date of so becoming an employed contributor over fifty years of age and has not at the date of any claim by him for such benefit paid at least five hundred weekly contributions.
    (4) In the case of every person over the age of sixteen years who, not having been previously insured under this Part of this Act, becomes an employed contributor subsequently to the expiration of one year from the commencement of this Act, the rate of sickness benefit to which he is entitled shall (unless he proves that his time since be attained the age of sixteen has been spent in a school or college, in indentured apprenticeship or otherwise under instruction without wages, or otherwise in the completion of his education, or unless he undertakes himself to pay the difference between the voluntary rate and the employed rate, or pays to the Insurance Commissioners, to be credited to the society, such capital sum as will be sufficient to secure him benefits at the full rate) be such reduced rate as may be fixed in accordance with tables to be prepared by the Insurance Commissioners, but not in any case less than five shillings a week for sickness benefit:
    Provided that if at any time subsequently such person would become entitled to sickness benefit at a higher rate if he were treated as having become an employed contributor as from the time when he attained the age of sixteen, or as from the expiration of one year after the commencement of this Act, whichever date may be the later, and as being in arrear for all contributions which, had he become an employed contributor at that date, would have been payable in respect of him between that date and the date when he actually became an employed contributor he shall if he so elects be entitled to be so treated.
    Amendments made: In Sub-section (1), leave out the words "over the age of sixteen and."
    In Sub-section (2), leave out the words "the rates of sickness and disablement benefits provided under this Act may in any case."
    After the word "where" ["where the rate"], insert the words "in the case of any insured persons."
    Leave out the words "insured persons" ["earned by insured persons"] and insert instead thereof "such persons the rate of such benefits shall."
    In Sub-section (3), at the beginning, insert the words "The rate of."
    Leave out the words "Over fifty years of age," and insert instead thereof the words "of the age of fifty years or upwards."
    Leave out the words "has not" ["has not at that date"], and insert instead thereof the words "the number of weekly contributions paid by or in respect of him is."
    Leave out the words "paid at least," and insert instead thereof the words "less than."
    Leave out the words "weekly contributions."
    In Sub-section (4), leave out the words "for sickness benefit" ["five shillings a week for sickness benefit."]—[Mr. Lloyd George.]

    CLAUSE 12.—(Reduced Rates of Benefits where Contributions are in Arrear.)
    (1) Where an insured person being a member of an approved society is in arrear to an amount greater than thirteen contributions a year on the average since his entry into insurance, his right to benefits under this Part of this Act other than medical benefit, sanatorium benefit, and maternity benefit shall be suspended, and where he is in arrears to an amount greater than twenty-six contributions a year on the average since his entry into insurance his right to medical benefit, sanatorium benefit, and maternity benefit shall be suspended, and at the expiration of the next exceeding calendar year any sums credited to the society in respect of him, calculated in the prescribed manner, shall, if his right to benefits still continues to be suspended, be carried to such account for the benefit of the society or any other society to which he may subsequently be transferred and dealt with in such manner as may be prescribed:
    Provided that if at any time after such suspension he becomes employed within the meaning of this Part of this Act he shall be entitled to benefits at such rate, after the lapse of such time, and after the payment of such number of contributions, as would have been applicable to his case had he not previously been an insured person, but if he so elects at any time the benefits to which he is entitled

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    shall be such as he would be entitled to, were the period from the time of his original entry into insurance taken as a whole.
    (2) Where an employed contributor claiming sickness benefit is at the date of such claim in arrears, but the arrears are less than as aforesaid, then the rate of sickness benefit shall be reduced to a sum not less than five shillings a week, or the time when sickness benefit commences deferred, proportionately to the amount of arrears in accordance with the table in the Fifth Schedule to this Act.
    (3) Where a voluntary contributor is in arrears he shall be liable to such proportionate reduction of benefits as may be prescribed.
    (4) In calculating arrears of contributions no account shall be taken of any arrears accruing—

    (a) during any period when the person in question has been or but for this Section or any other provision of the Act disentitling a person to such benefit would have been, in receipt of sickness benefit or disablement benefit; or

    (b) in the case of a woman who, being an insured person, is herself entitled to maternity benefit during two weeks before and four weeks after her confinement, or in the case of maternity benefit payable in respect of the posthumous child of an insured person during the period subsequent to the father's death; or

    (c) in the case of an employed contributor during the first twelve months after the commencement of this Act; or

    (d) during any period when the contributor (if an employed contributor) is under the age of sixteen years;

    but, save as aforesaid, contributions shall be deemed to be payable in respect of every week from the date of entry into insurance.
    (5) Where an insured person has paid any arrears of contributions payable by or in respect of him which accrued during the calendar year current at the date of payment and the previous calendar year, he shall be treated for the purposes of this Section as if the arrears so paid had never become due:
    Provided that if such person is at the date of payment or subsequently within one month thereafter becomes unfit to provide for his own maintenance through
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    disease or disablement, he shall for the purposes of this Section be deemed to be still in arrear in respect of the amount so paid until after the expiration of one month from the date of such payment.
    (6) Any approved society may, if they think fit, excuse any part of the arrears which may have accrued due by or in respect of any member not exceeding such part as would have been payable by the employer had the member been in his employment, and in such case the amount of the arrears of that member shall be reduced accordingly.
    Amendments made: In Sub-section (1), after the word "thirteen," insert the word "weekly."
    After the words "twenty-six," insert the word "weekly."
    Leave out the words, "next succeeding."
    After the word "year" ["succeeding calendar year"], insert the words "next after the date when he becomes suspended from all benefits."
    Leave out the word "such" ["after such suspension"].
    After the word "suspension," insert the words "from any such benefits."
    After the word "to" ["entitled to benefits"], insert the word "those."
    In Sub-section (4), paragraph (c), leave out the word "or."
    Leave out paragraph (d).
    In Sub-section (5), leave out the words "unfit to provide for his own maintenance through," and insert instead thereof the words "incapable of work by reason of."
    In Sub-section (6), leave out the words "they think" ["if they think fit"], and insert instead thereof the words "it thinks."
    After the word "member" ["in respect of any member"], insert the words "who is an employed contributor during any period of unemployment."
    Leave out the words "been in his" ["in his employment"], and insert instead thereof the words "continued in his last."
    At the end of the Clause add,
    (7) The average amount of arrears for the purposes of this section shall be calculated hi such manner as the Insurance Commissioners may prescribe.—[Mr. Lloyd George.]

    CLAUSE 13.—(Provisions in the case of Contributors entitled to Compensation or Damages.
    (1) Where an insured person has received or recovered or is entitled to receive or recover, whether from his employer or any other person, any compensation or damages under the Workmen's Compensation Act, 1906, or any scheme certified thereunder, or under the Employers' Liability Act, 1880, or at common law, in respect of any injury or disease, the following provisions shall apply:—

    (a) No sickness benefit or disablement benefit shall be paid to such person in respect of any such injury or disease in any case where any weekly sum or the weekly value of any lump sum paid or payable in respect of any such compensation or damages is equal to or greater than the benefit otherwise payable to such person, and where any such weekly sum or the weekly value of any such lump sum is less than the benefit in question, such part only of the benefit shall be paid as, together with the weekly sum or the weekly value of the lump sum, will be equal to the benefit:

    (b) The weekly value of any such lump sum as aforesaid may be determined by the society or committee by which the sickness and disablement benefits payable to such person are administered:

    (c) Where an agreement is made as to the amount of such compensation as aforesaid, or as to the redemption of a weekly payment by a lump sum under the Workmen's Compensation Act, 1906, the employer shall, within three days thereafter, send to the Insurance Commissioners, or to the society or committee concerned, notice in writing of such agreement giving the prescribed particulars thereof, and proviso (d) to paragraph (9) of the Second Schedule of the Workmen's Compensation Act, 1906 (which relates to the powers of registrars of county courts to refuse to record memoranda of agreements and to refer the matter to the judge) shall, in cases where the workman is an insured person, apply to agreements as to the amount of compensation, in like manner as to agreements as to the redemption of weekly payments by lump sums:

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    (d) Where an insured person is entitled to any such compensation or damages as aforesaid and refuses or neglects to take proceedings to enforce his claim, it shall be lawful for the society or committee concerned, either at its own expense, to take in the name and on behalf of such person such proceedings, in which case any compensation or damages recovered shall be held by the society or committee as trustee for the insured person, or to withhold payment of any benefit to which apart from this Section such person would be entitled. In the event of the society or committee concerned taking proceedings as aforesaid, and failing in the proceedings, they shall be responsible for the costs of the proceedings as if they were claiming on their own account.

    (2) Nothing in this Section shall prevent the society or committee paying to an insured person entitled to such compensation damages benefit by way of advance pending the settlement of his claim for compensation or damages, and any advance so made shall, without prejudice to any other method of recovery, be recoverable by deductions from or suspension of any benefits which may subsequently become payable to such person.
    Amendments made: In Sub-section (1), paragraph (a), leave out the words "any such" ["any such injury"] and insert instead thereof the word "that."
    Leave out the words "in respect of any such" ["any such compensation"] and insert instead thereof the words "by way of."
    At the end of paragraph (b) insert the words "but if the insured person is aggrieved by such determination, the matter shall be settled in manner provided by this Part of this Act for settling disputes."
    In paragraph (c), after the word "aforesaid," insert the words "and that amount is less than ten shillings a week."
    In paragraph (d) leave out "(d) where an insured person is" and insert instead thereof "(2) where an insured person appears to be."
    In paragraph (d), after the word "and" ["and refuses"], insert the word "unreasonably."
    Leave out the word "they" ["they shall be"], and insert instead thereof the word "it."
    Leave out the word "they" ["they were claiming"], and insert instead thereof the word "it."
    Leave out the word "their" ["their own account"], and insert instead thereof the word "its."
    In Sub-section (2) leave out the words "entitled to such compensation damages."—[Mr. Lloyd George.]

    CLAUSE 14.—(Provisions in the Case of Contributors who are Inmates of Hospitals, etc.
    (1) No payment shall be made on account of sickness disablement or maternity benefit to or in respect of any person during any period when the person to or in respect of whom the benefit is payable is an inmate of any workhouse, hospital, asylum, or infirmary, supported by any public authority or out of any public funds or by a charity, or voluntary subscriptions, or of a sanatorium or similar institution approved under this Part of this Act.
    (2) During such period as aforesaid the sum which would otherwise have been payable on account of any such benefit to or in respect of such person—

    (a) shall be paid to or applied in whole or in part for the relief or maintenance of his dependents (if any) in such manner as the society or committee by which the benefit is administered, after consultation whenever possible with such person, think fit; or

    (b) if such person is an inmate of a sanatorium or similar institution in which he is receiving treatment in accordance with the provisions of this Part of this Act, and has no dependents, shall be paid to the local health committee towards the general purposes thereof unless such person is not a member of an approved society; or

    (c) if such persons, being a member of an approved society, is an inmate of a hospital, convalescent home, or infirmary supported by charity or by voluntary subscriptions and has no dependents, shall, if an agreement for the purpose has been made between the society or committee and the hospital, convalescent home, or infirmary, be paid, in whole or in part, according to such agreement, towards the maintenance of such person in the hospital, convalescent home, or infirmary:

    Provided that in the case of a married woman or widow who is entitled to sickness benefit in addition to maternity benefit, no part of the sum which would otherwise be payable on account of maternity benefit shall be paid or applied for the relief or maintenance of her dependents, but such sum may be paid to the hospital, convalescent home, or infirmary of which she is an inmate as aforesaid in like manner as if she had no dependents.
    (3) For the purpose of this Section, the expression "dependants" shall include such persons as the approved society or local health committee shall ascertain to be wholly or in part dependent upon the earnings of such inmate of any such institution as aforesaid.
    Amendments made: In Sub-section (1), leave out the word "asylum," and insert instead thereof the words "convalescent home."
    In Sub-section (2), paragraph (a), leave out the word "think," and insert instead thereof the word "thinks."
    In paragraph (b), after the word "person" ["if such person"], insert the words "being a member of an approved society."
    Leave out the words "unless such person is not a member of an approved society."
    In paragraph (c), after the word "hospital" ["inmate of a hospital"], insert the word "asylum."
    After the word "hospital" ["and the hospital"] insert the word "asylum."
    After the word "hospital" ["in the hospital"] insert the word "asylum."
    Leave out the words "in the case of" ["in the case of a married woman"] and insert instead thereof the words "if such an inmate as aforesaid is."
    After the word "hospital" ["paid to the hospital"] insert the word "asylum."
    Leave out Sub-section (3).—[Mr. Lloyd George.]
    Administration of Benefits.

    CLAUSE 15.—(Benefits to be Administered by Approved Societies or Local Health Committee.)
    (1) Sickness benefit, disablement benefit, and maternity benefit shall be administered, in the case of insured persons who are members of an approved society, by and through the society, and in other cases by and through the local health

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    committees; medical and sanatorium benefits shall in all cases be administered by and through local health committees.
    (2) Subject to the provisions of this Part of this Act, an approved society may, with the consent of the Insurance Commissioners, provide for the application of its existing rules or make new rules with regard to the manner and time of paying or distributing and mode of calculating benefits, suspension of benefits, notices and proof of disease or disablement, behaviour during disease or disablement, and the visiting of sick or disabled per sons, and for the infliction and enforcement of penalties (whether by way of fines or suspension of benefits or otherwise) in the case of any member being an insured person who is guilty of any breach of any such rule, or of any imposition or attempted imposition in respect of any benefit under this Part of this Act, and may from time to time with the like consent alter or repeal any such rules; but—

    (a) no fine imposed under any such rule shall exceed ten shillings or, in the case of repeated breaches of rules, twenty shillings;

    (b) no such rule shall provide for the suspension of any benefit for a period exceeding one year;

    (c) every such rule relating to the visiting of insured persons shall provide that women shall not be visited otherwise than by women;

    (d) every such rule relating to behaviour during disease or disablement shall be in the prescribed form;

    (e) no such rule shall prescribe any penalty, nor shall any insured person be subject to any penalty, whether by suspension of benefit or otherwise, on account of the refusal by any such person to submit to a surgical operation, or vaccination, or inoculation of any kind;

    (f) No such rule shall provide for withholding maternity benefit from the wife of an insured person except the said wife has herself been guilty of breach of such, or attempted imposition as aforesaid.

    (3) The local health committee shall, subject to the approval of the Insurance Commissioners, make rules in respect of any of the matters mentioned in the last preceding Sub-section, for the purpose of regulating the payment or distribution of benefits administered by the committee:
    Provided that no such rule relating to anything to be done by, to, or through the Post Office shall be made without the consent of the Postmaster-General.
    (4) Where, under any such rule as aforesaid, payment of sickness or disablement benefit is suspended on the ground that the disease or disablement has been caused by the misconduct of the person claiming the benefit, such person shall nevertheless continue to be entitled to medical benefit.
    (5) Where under any Act regulating the constitution of an approved society the rules of the society are required to be registered, any rules approved under this Section by the Insurance Commissioners shall forthwith be registered, but till so registered shall have effect as if they had been duly registered.
    Amendments made: In Sub-section (1), after the word "society" ["through the society"], insert the words "or a branch thereof."
    After the word "through" ["by and through"], insert the word "the."
    After the word "Committees," insert the words "additional benefits shall be administered by the society or branch of which the persons entitled thereto are members, except where such benefits are in the nature of medical benefits, in which case they shall be administered by and through the local health committees."
    In Sub-section (2), paragraph (c), after the word "persons," insert the words "by visitors appointed by the society."
    In paragraph (e), at the end, insert the words "unless such refusal in the case of a surgical operation of a minor character is considered by the society, or on appeal the Insurance Commissioners, unreasonable."
    In paragraph (f), leave out the words "withholding maternity benefit from the wife of an insured person, except the said wife has herself been guilty of breach of such, or attempted imposition as aforesaid," and insert instead thereof the words, "inflicting as a penalty for breach of rules or imposition or attempted imposition on the part of an insured person suspension of maternity benefit in respect of the confinement of his wife, where his wife has not herself been guilty of any such breach, imposition, or attempted imposition."
    In Sub-section (3), leave out the words "for the purpose of regulating the pay-
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    ment or distribution of benefits administered by the Committee," and insert instead thereof the words "with regard to the administration of benefits by the Committee."
    In Sub-section (4), leave out the words "nevertheless continue to be entitled," and insert instead thereof the words "not thereby becomes disentitled."
    In Sub-section (5), after the word "of" ["constitution of"] insert the words "a society which becomes."—[Mr. Lloyd George.]

    CLAUSE 16.—(Administration of Medical Benefit.)
    (1) Every local health committee shall for the purpose of administering medical benefit make arrangements with duly qualified medical practitioners in accordance with regulations made by the Insurance Commissioners.
    (2) The regulations made by the Insurance Commissioners shall provide for the arrangements made being subject to the approval of the Insurance Commissioners and being such as to secure that insured persons shall, save as hereinafter provided, receive adequate medical attendance and treatment from the medical practitioners with whom arrangements are so made, and shall require the adoption by every local health committee of such system as will secure—

    (a) the preparation and publication of lists of medical practitioners who have agreed to attend and treat insured persons whose medical benefit is administered by the committee within the area to which the list relates;

    (b) a right on the part of any duly qualified medical practitioner who is desirous of being included in any such list as aforesaid of being so included, but where the Insurance Commissioners, after such inquiry as may be prescribed, are satisfied that his continuance in the list would be prejudicial to the efficiency of the medical service of the insured, they may remove his name from the list;

    (c) a right on the part of any insured person of selecting, at such periods as may be prescribed, from the appropriate list the practitioner by whom he wishes to be attended and treated, and, subject to the consent
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    of the practitioner so selected, of being attended and treated by him;

    (d) the distribution amongst and, so far as practicable, under arrangements made by the several practitioners whose names are on the lists of the insured persons who after due notice have failed to make any selection, or who have been refused by the practitioner whom they have selected:

    Provided that if the Insurance Commissioners are satisfied after inquiry that the practitioners included in any list are not such as to secure an adequate medical service in any area, they may dispense with the necessity of the adoption of such system as aforesaid as respects that area, and authorise the Committee to make such other arrangements as the Commissioners may approve.
    (3) The regulations made by the Insurance Commissioners shall authorise the local health committee by which medical benefit is administered to require any persons whose income exceeds a limit to be fixed by them, and to allow any other persons, in lieu of receiving medical benefit under such arrangements as aforesaid, to make their own arrangements for receiving medical attendance and treatment (including medicines and appliances), and in such case the committee shall, subject to the regulations, contribute from the funds out of which medical benefit is payable towards the cost of medical attendance and treatment (including medicines and appliances) for such persons sums not exceeding in the aggregate the amounts which the committee would otherwise have expended in providing medical benefit for them.
    (4) The regulations may provide that, in the case of persons who are receiving medical attendance and treatment under any system or through any organisation existing at the time of the passing of this Act, and approved by the local health committee and the Insurance Commissioners, such medical attendance and treatment may be treated as, or as part of, their medical benefit under this Part of this Act, and may provide for the Committee contributing towards the expenses thereof the whole or any part of the sums which would be contributed in the case of persons who have made their own arrangements as aforesaid.
    (5) Every such Committee shall also make provision for the supply of proper and sufficient drugs and medicines to

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    insured persons in accordance with regulations made by the Insurance Commissioners, which shall provide for the arrangements made being subject to the approval of the Insurance Commissioners, and being such as to enable insured persons to obtain from any person with whom arrangements have been made such drugs, medicines, and appliances as may be ordered by the medical practitioner by whom they are attended, and shall require the adoption by every local health committee of such a system as will secure—

    (a) The preparation and publication of lists of persons, firms, and bodies corporate who have agreed to supply drugs, medicines, and appliances to insured persons whose medical benefit is administered by the Committee, according to such scale of prices as may be fixed by the Committee;

    (b) A right on the part of any properly qualified person who is desirous of being included in any such list as aforesaid, of being so included, except in cases where the Insurance Commissioners after inquiry are satisfied that his inclusion or continuance in such list would be prejudicial to the efficiency of the service:

    Provided that—

    (i) If the Insurance Commissioners are satisfied that the scale of prices fixed by the Committee is reasonable, but that the persons, firms, or bodies corporate included in any list are not such as to secure an adequate and convenient supply of drugs, medicines, and appliances in any area, they may dispense with the necessity of the adoption of such system as aforesaid as respects that area and authorise the Committee to make such other arrangements as the Commissioners may approve;

    (ii) The regulations shall prohibit an arrangement being made with a medical practitioner under which he is bound or agrees to provide drugs or medicine for any insured person without the consent of the Insurance Commissioners, which consent they shall not give unless the circumstances of any locality are such as to make it expedient to do so;

    (iii) Subject to the foregoing provision as to dispensing by a medical practitioner,
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    the regulations shall prohibit arrangements for the supply of drugs and medicines being made with persons other than persons, firms, or bodies corporate entitled to carry on the business of a chemist and druggist under the provisions of the Poisons and Pharmacy Act, 1908, who undertake that all medicines supplied by them to insured persons shall be dispensed either by a registered pharmacist or by a person who, for three years immediately prior to the passing of this Act, has acted as a dispenser to a duly qualified medical practitioner or a public institution.

    (6) There shall in each year be paid to the local health committee for each county or county borough out of moneys credited to a society which has members resident in the county or county borough such sum in respect of the medical benefit for every such member as in default of agreement, may be determined by the Insurance Commissioners.
    (7) If in any year the amount payable to a local health committee in respect of all persons for the administration of whose medical benefit it is responsible is insufficient to meet the estimated expenditure thereon, the Committee may, through the Insurance Commissioners, transmit to the Treasury and to the council of the county or county borough an account showing the amount so payable and the estimated expenditure, and the Treasury and the county council or the council of the county borough, may if they think fit and if satisfied that the amounts so payable and the proposed expenditure are reasonable and proper in the circumstances, sanction the expenditure.
    (8) The Treasury and the council of the county or county borough sanctioning any such expenditure as aforesaid shall thereupon each be liable to make good, in the case of the Treasury out of moneys provided by Parliament, and in the case of the council of a county or county borough out of the county fund or borough fund or borough rate, as the case may be, one half of any sums so sanctioned by them and expended by the local health committee on medical benefit in the course of the year in excess of the amounts so payable to the local health committee as aforesaid.
    Amendments made: In Sub-section (2), paragraph (a), leave out the words "within the area to which the list relates."
    At the end of paragraph (d) insert,
    (e) the provision of medical attendance and treatment, on the same terms as those arranged with respect to insured persons, to members of any friendly society which becomes an approved society who were such members at the date of the passing of this Act, and who are not entitled to medical benefit under this Part of this Act by reason either that they are of the age of sixty-five or upwards at the date of the commencement of this Act, or that being subject to permanent disablement at that date they are not qualified to become insured persons.
    At the end of the Sub-section, insert the words,
    "or the Commissioners may themselves make such arrangements as they think fit, or may suspend the right to medical benefit in respect of any insured persons in the area for such period as they think fit, and pay to each such person a sum equal to the estimated cost of his medical benefit during that period, and where the Commissioners take any such action themselves they shall retain and apply for the purpose such part of the sums payable to the local health committee in respect of medical benefit as may be required."
    In Sub-section (3), leave out the word "them" ["fixed by them"], and insert instead thereof the word "Committee."
    In Sub-section (4), leave out the word "organisation," and insert instead thereof the word "institution."
    At the end of Sub-section (4), insert the words "so, however, that such regulations shall secure that no person be deprived of his right, if he so elects, of selecting the duly qualified medical practitioner by whom he wishes to be attended and treated, in accordance with the foregoing provisions of this Section."
    In Sub-section (5), after the word "medicines" ["drugs and medicines"], insert the words "prescribed appliances."
    Leave out the word "person" ["any person"], and insert instead thereof the words "persons, firms, or bodies corporate."
    Leave out the words "as may be" ["may be ordered"], and insert instead thereof the word "if."
    In paragraph (a), leave out the words "properly qualified."
    In paragraph (b), leave out the words "who is," and insert instead thereof the words "firm or body corporate."
    After the word "included" ["being so included"] insert the words "for the purpose of supplying such drugs, medicines, and appliances as such person, firm, or body corporate is entitled by law and authorised by the committee to supply."
    Leave out the word "his" ["his inclusion"], and insert instead thereof the word "the."
    After the word "continuance," insert the words "of the person, firm, or body corporate."
    Leave out paragraph (ii) and insert instead thereof,
    (ii) Except as may be provided by regulations made by the Insurance Commissioners, no arrangement shall be made by the local Health Committee with a medical practitioner under which he is bound or agrees to supply drugs or medicine to any insured persons.
    In paragraph (iii) leave out the words "foregoing provision as to dispensing by a medical practitioner," and insert instead thereof "regulations made by the last foregoing proviso."
    After the word "the" ["of the Poisons"] insert the words "Pharmacy Act, 1868, as amended by the."
    After the word "by" ["either by"], insert the words "or under the direct supervision of."
    At the end of paragraph (iii.), insert,
    (iv.) Nothing in this Act shall interfere with the rights and privileges conferred by The Apothecaries Act, 1815, upon any person qualified under that Act to act as an assistant to any apothecary in compounding and dispensing medicines.
    In Sub-section (6), leave out the words "for every such member as," and insert instead thereof the words "of such members and the cost of administration thereof as may be agreed between the society and committee or."—[Mr. Lloyd George.]

    CLAUSE 17.—(Administration of Sanatorium Benefit.)
    (1) For the purpose of administering sanatorium benefit local health committees shall make arrangements, to the

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    satisfaction of the Insurance Commissioners,—

    (a) with a view to providing treatment for insured persons suffering from tuberculosis or any other such disease as aforesaid in sanatoria and other institutions, with persons or local authorities having the management of sanatoria or other institutions approved by the Local Government Board; and

    (b) with a view to providing treatment for such persons otherwise than in sanatoria or other institutions, with persons and local authorities other than poor law authorities undertaking such treatment in a manner approved by the Local Government Board, which treatment (including the appointment of officers for the purpose) it shall be lawful (for a local authority, if so authorised by the Local Government Board, to undertake.

    (2) The sums available for defraying the expenses of sanatorium benefit in each year shall be—

    (a) one shilling and threepence in respect of each insured person resident in the county or county borough payable out of the funds out of which benefits are payable under this Part of this Act;

    (b) one penny in respect of each such person payable out of moneys provided by Parliament;

    Provided that the Insurance Commissioners may retain the whole or any part of the sums so payable out of moneys provided by Parliament for the purposes of research.
    (3) An insured person shall not be entitled to sanatorium benefit unless the local health committee recommends the case for such benefit.
    (4) A local health committee may, out of the sums available for defraying the expenses of sanatorium treatment, defray in whole or in part the expenses of the conveyance of an insured person to or from any sanatorium or institution to which he may be sent for treatment therein, or may make advances for the purpose.
    Amendments made: In Sub-section (1), paragraph (a), after the word "authorities," insert the words ["other than Poor Law authorities"].
    After the word "Board" ["Local Government Board "], insert the words,
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    "which treatment it shall be lawful for a local authority to provide as respects insured persons resident outside as well as respects those resident within their area."
    After the word "Parliament" ["by Parliament for the purposes of research"], insert the words, "to be applied in accordance with regulations made by the Commissioners."—[Mr. Lloyd George.]

    CLAUSE 18.—(Power to Extend Sanatorium Benefit to Dependents.)
    (1) The local health committee for any county or county borough may, if they think fit, extend sanatorium benefit to the dependents of the insured persons resident in the county, any part of the county, or in the county boroughs, or any class of such dependents, and in such case the arrangements to be made by the committee shall include arrangements for the treatment of such dependents, and the sums available for sanatorium benefit shall be applicable to the purpose.
    (2) If in any year the amount available for defraying the expenses of sanatorium benefit is insufficient to meet the estimated expenditure on sanatorium benefit for insured persons and such dependents the local health committee may, through the Insurance Commissioners, transmit to the Treasury and the council or the county or county borough an account showing the estimated expenditure for the purpose and the amount of the sums available for defraying the expenses of sanatorium benefit, and the Treasury and council may sanction such expenditure.
    (3) The Treasury and the council of the county or county borough sanctioning such expenditure as aforesaid shall thereupon each be liable to make good, in the case of the Treasury out of moneys provided by Parliament, and in the case of the council of the county or county borough out of the county fund or borough fund or borough rate, as the case may be, one-half of any sums so sanctioned by them and expended by the local health committee on sanatorium benefit for insured persons and their dependents in the course of the year in excess of the amount available for defraying the expenses of the committee on sanatorium benefit.
    Amendments made: In Sub-section (1) leave out the words "they think," and insert instead thereof the words "it thinks."
    After the word "county" ["resident in the county"], insert the word "or."
    In Sub-section (2), after the word "may." insert the words "if they think fit."—[Mr. Lloyd George.]

    CLAUSE 19.—(Administration of Maternity Benefit.)
    Where the mother of the child is herself an insured person, and is not the wife of an insured person, maternity benefit shall be treated as a benefit for her and shall be administered in cash or otherwise by the approved society of which she is a member, or if she is not a member of any society by the local health committee; in any other case the benefit shall be treated as a benefit for her husband and shall be administered in cash or otherwise by the approved society of which he is a member, or if he is not a member of any such society by the local health committee, and shall be payable in respect of a posthumous child:
    Provided always that the mother shall decide whether she shall be attended by a registered medical practitioner or by a duly certified midwife, and shall have free choice in the selection of such practitioner or midwife.
    Amendments made: After the word "wife," insert the words "or, in the case of a posthumous child, the widow."
    After the word "child" ["posthumous child"], insert the words "as if the husband were still alive."
    Leave out the word "registered," and insert instead thereof the words "duly qualified."
    At end of Clause insert,
    (2) In deciding whether or not they shall make an order under The Bastardy Laws Amendment Act, 1872, for the payment of the expenses incidental to the birth of a child, the justices shall not take into consideration the fact that the mother of the child is entitled to receive maternity benefit under this Part of the Act.—[Mr. Lloyd George.]

    CLAUSE 21.—(Power of Councils of Boroughs and Districts to Contribute to certain Expenditure on Medical and Sanatorium Benefits.)
    The council of any borough or urban or rural district may agree with the council of the county in which the borough or district is situate to repay to the latter council the whole or any part of the sums payable by that council in accordance with the provisions of this Part of this Act
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    towards the excess expenditure on medical or sanatorium benefits so far as such excess is properly attributable to the borough or district, and any sums payable by the council of the borough or district in pursuance of such an agreement shall be payable in the case of a borough out of the borough fund or borough rate, and in any other case as part of the general expenses incurred by the council in the execution of the Public Health Acts.
    Amendment: Leave out the word "benefits," and insert instead thereof the word "benefit."—[Mr. Lloyd George.]
    Approved Societies.

    CLAUSE 22.—(Conditions for the Approval of Approved Societies.)
    (1) Any society, that is to say, any body of persons, corporate or unincorporate (not being a branch of another such body), registered or established under any Act of Parliament, or by Royal Charter, or if not so registered or established, having a constitution which is in accordance with regulations prescribed by the Insurance Commissioners, which complies with the requirements of this Act relating to approved societies, may be approved by the Insurance Commissioners, and if so approved shall be an approved society for the purposes of this Part of this Act:
    Provided that where any society establishes for the purposes of this Part of this Act a separate section consisting of insured persons, whether with or without honorary members not being insured persons, and so constituted as to comply with the requirements of this Act relating to approved societies, such separate section may be approved by the Insurance Commissioners, and if so approved shall be an approved society, and the provisions of this Part of this Act relating to approved societies shall apply only to such separate section of the society.
    (2) No society shall receive the approval of the Insurance Commissioners unless it satisfies the following conditions:—

    (i.) It must not be a society carried on for profit;

    (ii.) Its constitution must provide to the satisfaction of the Insurance Commissioners for its affairs being subject to the absolute control of its members being insured persons or, if the rules of the society so provide, of its members whether insured persons or not including provision for

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    the election and removal of the committee of management or other governing body of the society, in the case of a society whose affairs are managed by delegates elected by members, by such delegates, and in other cases in such manner as will secure absolute control by its members.

    (3) Applications for approval under this section may be made and approval granted at any time before or after the commencement of this Act, and the Insurance Commissioners may grant approval either unconditionally or subject to the condition of the society taking within such time as the Commissioners may allow such steps as may be necessary to make the society comply with the requirements of this Act relating to approved societies.
    Amendments made: In Sub-section (1), leave out the words "which is in accordance with regulations prescribed by the Insurance Commissioners," and insert instead thereof the words "of such a character as may be prescribed."
    After the word "relating" ["Part of this Act relating"], insert the words "to the conditions, of approval of societies and."
    At end of Sub-section 2 (ii.), insert,
    (iii.) if the society has honorary members, its constitution must provide for excluding such honorary members from the right of voting in their capacity of members of the society on all questions and matters arising under this Part of this Act.
    In Sub-section (3), after the word "this" ["requirements of this Act"], insert the words "Part of this."—[Mr. Lloyd George.]

    CLAUSE 23.—(Power of Societies to undertake Business under Part I.)
    (1) It shall be lawful for any body of persons, corporate or unincorporate, established before the passing of this Act which is desirous of transacting insurance business under this Part of this Act, notwithstanding anything in the provisions of the Acts under which it is established or registered or carried on, or of its memorandum or articles of association, rules, or other instrument governing its constitution or defining its objects, to do all such acts and things (including the establishment of a separate section as aforesaid) as may be necessary for the purpose of enabling the body to undertake the transaction of such business.
    (2) This Section shall come into operation on the passing of this Act.
    Amendments made: In Sub-section (1), after the word "Act" ["this Part of this Act"], insert the words "or of making any Amendments in its constitution, or administration, or contributions, or benefits, or otherwise which may be necessary or expedient in consequence of the passing of this Act."
    At end of Sub-section, insert the words, "as soon as may be after the passing of this Act, and, if the instrument regulating the constitution of the body contains provisions requiring any interval to elapse before action can be taken, such provisions shall not apply to action taken for the purposes aforesaid."
    After the words last inserted, insert, "(2) Sub-sections (3) and (4) of Section seventy of the Friendly Societies Act, 1896, shall not apply to any resolutions for amalgamation or transfer engagements when the resolution is made expressly for the purposes of this Part of this Act."
    At end of Sub-section (2), insert the words "and shall not continue in force beyond the expiration of one year from the commencement of this Act."—[Mr. Lloyd George.]

    CLAUSE 24.—(Special Provisions for Employers Provident Funds, etc).
    (1) Where a society consists of persons entitled to rights in a provident fund or any similar fund established for the benefit of persons employed by one or more employers, the society may be approved:
    Provided that its constitution provides that the election of all the committees, representatives, and officers elected by the workmen shall be by ballot, notwithstanding that the employer is entitled to representation on the committee or other body administering the fund, to an extent not exceeding one quarter of the total number of the body, if the employer, in addition to the employer's contributions payable by him under this Part of this Act, is responsible for the solvency of the fund or for the benefits payable thereout, or is liable to pay a substantial part of, or to make substantial contributions to, or substantially to supplement, the benefits payable out of the fund:
    Provided that no such society as aforesaid shall be approved unless by its constitution it is prohibited so far as concerns the benefits under this Part of this Act from refusing to allow a member to

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    transfer to another approved society, and from refusing to allow a member who is discharged from or leaves the employment of the employer and is unable to obtain admission to another approved society on account of the state of his health to continue a member:
    Provided also that no such society shall be approved if the employer makes membership of such society a condition of employment.
    (2) Where, for the purpose of enabling any such society to become an approved society, it is necessary to make any alteration in the existing rules or constitution of the society which it is not competent for the society under its existing constitution to make, a scheme for the purpose may be submitted for the approval of the Insurance Commissioners.
    (3) Where such a scheme has been approved by the Insurance Commissioners, the Act or deed constituting the society shall have effect subject to the provisions of the scheme, but the Insurance Commissioners shall not approve any such scheme unless they are satisfied that the members of the society have been given an opportunity of voting by ballot thereon, and that the scheme makes proper provision for safeguarding existing rights and interests.
    Amendments made: In Sub-section (1), after the word "a" ["a provident fund"], insert the words "superannuation or other."
    Leave out the words "or any similar fund."
    Leave out the words "Provided that its constitution provides that the election of all the committees, representatives, and officers elected by the workmen shall be by ballot."
    After the word "member" ["continue a member"], insert the words
    "and unless its constitution provides for the election of the members of the committee of management (other than the employer's representatives) by ballot."—[Mr. Lloyd George.]

    CLAUSE 25.—(Security to be given by Approved Societies.)
    (1) Every approved society and every society desirous of becoming an approved society shall give such security as the Insurance Commissioners may consider sufficient to provide against any malversation or misappropriation by officers of the
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    society of any funds coming to their hands under this Part of this Act, and in determining the amount of the security to be required the Commissioners shall have regard to the amount of the funds so coming into their hands; Provided that no security shall be required from any society which proves to the Insurance Commissioners that the only funds coming into the hands of the society under this Part of this Act are such funds as are required for reimbursing to the society sums previously expended by the society under this Part of this Act.
    (2) In the case of an approved society with branches having insured persons among their members, security shall be given in respect of each such branch by the society.
    (3) The Insurance Commissioners may from time to time vary the amount of security to be given or maintained by an approved society as may be thought proper, and where security is given by the deposit of securities, the society which made the deposit may, with the consent of the Insurance Commissioners, substitute other securities for the securities for the time being deposited.
    (4) Any dividends or interest arising from securities deposited by an approved society under this section shall be paid to the society.
    Amendments made: In Sub-section (1), leave out the words "their hands" ["their hands under"], and insert instead thereof the words "the hands of the society."
    Leave out the words "their hands" ["their hands. Provided"], and insert instead thereof the words "the hands of the society."
    In Sub-section (3), leave out the words "the" ["the deposit of securities"], and insert instead thereof the words "way of."—[Mr. Lloyd George.]

    CLAUSE 26.—(Provisions as to Approved Societies.)
    (1) Every approved society, shall make proper provision by rules to the satisfaction of the Insurance Commissioners for the government of the society, and if a society with branches—

    (a) for the government of the society and its branches;

    (b) for the determination of disputes arising between the society and any branch thereof, or between one such branch and another;

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    (c) for the administration of benefits by the branches as respects insured persons who are members of such branches;

    (d) for the keeping of proper books of account by the branches in any case where separate accounts are usually kept by those branches;

    (e) for depriving of or suspending from the right of administering benefits under this Part of this Act any branch which is guilty of maladministration of those benefits, and for providing in such a case for their administration by the society or otherwise.

    (2) Every approved society and every branch thereof shall comply with any regulations made by the Insurance Commissioners as to the place in which meetings are to be held, and those regulations may provide for the use for such meetings, with or without payment, of any offices or other buildings occupied by or in connection with a labour exchange or under the control of a Government department or belonging to or under the management of a local authority, but subject to the consent of such local authority or of such Government department.
    Amendments made: In Sub-section (1), after the word "shall" ["shall make proper provision"], insert the words "as respects the administration of the affairs of the society under this Part of this Act."
    In paragraph (e), after the word "benefits" ["those benefits"], insert the words "or is convicted of any offence under any Act."
    In Sub-section (2), leave out the words "occupied by or in connection with a Labour Exchange or."
    After the word "department" ["department or"], insert the words ("including offices or buildings occupied by or in connection with a Labour Exchange.")
    Leave out the words "such local authority, or of such," and insert instead thereof the word "the."
    At end of Sub-section, insert the words "or the local authority concerned."
    After the words last inserted, insert,
    "(3) Where under any Act regulating the constitution of an approved society the rules of the society are required to be registered, any rules approved under this Section by the Insurance Commissioners shall forthwith be registered, but until so registered shall have effect as if they had been duly registered."—[Mr. Lloyd George.]

    CLAUSE 27.—(Secessions, etc.)
    (1) No branch of an approved society having insured persons among its members shall be entitled to secede or withdraw from the society without the consent of the Insurance Commissioners; but such consent shall not be given unless the seceding or withdrawing branch complies with the conditions of approval requisite in the case of approved societies, and on any such consent being given the branch shall be subject in all respects to the provisions and requirements of this Part of this Act relating to approved societies.
    (2) An approved society or a branch thereof shall not be dissolved without the sanction of the Insurance Commissioners, and any such dissolution, so far as it affects members who are insured persons, shall be carried out in the prescribed manner.
    (3) No branch of an approved society shall be expelled from the society unless proper provision is made to the satisfaction of the Insurance Office with respect to any members of the branch who are insured persons.
    (4) This section shall have effect notwithstanding anything contained in any Act regulating the constitution of the society.
    Amendments made: At end of Sub-section (1), insert the words, "Provided that such consent shall not be required if the branch makes provision to the satisfaction of the Insurance Commissioners for the transfer to other approved societies or to other branches of the society from which it is seceding or withdrawing of such of its members as are insured persons."
    In Sub-section (3), leave out the word "office," and insert instead thereof the word "Commissioners."—[Mr. Lloyd George.]

    CLAUSE 28.—(Withdrawal of Approval.)
    Where an approved society fails to comply with any of the provisions or requirements of this Part of this Act relating to approved societies, or is convicted of any offence under any Act regulating the constitution of the society or under any other Act, the Insurance Commissioners may withdraw their approval, and thereupon the society shall cease to be an approved society and the Insurance Commissioners shall make such provision as they may consider necessary with respect to members of the society who are insured persons.
    Amendments made: After the word "society" ["society fails"], insert the words "or a branch of any approved society."
    After the word "or," ["or is convicted"], insert the words, "where such a society or body or the body of which the society forms a separate section."
    Leave out the word "the," ["the constitution"], and insert instead thereof the word "its."
    Leave out the words "of the society."—[Mr. Lloyd George.]
    Membership of Approved Societies and Transfer of Members.

    CLAUSE 29.—(Admission of Insured Persons to Membership in Approved Societies.)
    (1) Subject to the provisions of this Act, any insured person and any person desirous of becoming an insured person may apply to an approved society for membership therein.
    (2) An approved society shall be entitled, in accordance with its rules, to admit or reject any such applicant, or to expel any of its members being insured persons: Provided that no such application shall be refused solely on the ground of the age of the applicant, and that the applicant may for the purposes of this Part of this Act be admitted as a member of a society notwithstanding anything in any other Act limiting the age for admission to societies of that class.
    Amendments made: In Sub-section (1) leave out the words "desirous of becoming," and insert instead thereof the words "entitled to become."
    Leave out the words "and that the applicant may for the purposes of this Part of this Act be admitted as a member of a society notwithstanding anything in any other Act limiting the age for admission to societies of that class."—[Mr. Lloyd George.]

    CLAUSE 30.—(Transfer from one Approved Society to another.)
    (1) If an insured person, being a member of an approved society, ceases to be a member of that society, whether voluntarily or by expulsion, and becomes a member of another approved society, there shall be transferred to such other society in respect of such person a sum representing the liability under this Part of this Act of the first-mentioned society in respect
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    of him (in this Act called "transfer value") calculated in accordance with tables to be prepared by the Insurance Commissioners.
    (2) This section shall apply to transfers from one branch of an approved society to another branch of the same or any society in like manner as it applies to transfers from one society to another society.
    Amendment made: At end of Sub-section (1), insert the words,
    "Provided that such transfer value shall not be so transferred in any case where the first-mentioned society proves that the insured person voluntarily ceased to be a member of that society without the consent of the society, and that that consent was not unreasonably withheld."—[Mr. Lloyd George.]

    CLAUSE 32.—(Prohibition against Double Insurance.)
    A person shall not be or attempt to be come a member for the purposes of this Part of this Act of more than one approved society at the same time, or, being a deposit contributor, to become at the same time a member for the purposes of this Part of this Act of an approved society, but nothing in this Act shall prevent any person who is a member of an approved society or a deposit contributor under this Part of this Act becoming a member of the same or any other society independently of this Act, or affect the right of an approved society to reject or expel from membership any person not being an insured person, or the rights or liabilities of an approved society or of any member thereof arising otherwise than under this Part of this Act; and, subject to the provisions of this Part of this Act, all rules made by an approved society or any branch thereof shall remain and be of the same force and effect as though this Act had not been passed.
    Amendments made: Leave out the words "or a deposit contributor."
    After the word "Act" ["independently of this Act"] insert the words "or prevent a deposit contributor becoming a member of any society independently of this Act."
    After the word "by" ["rules made by"] insert the words "a society which becomes."—[Mr. Lloyd George.]
    Accounts: Valuations: Surplus and Deficit.

    CLAUSE 33.—(Approved Societies to keep Proper Accounts.)
    (1) Every approved society and every branch of an approved society must—

    (a) Keep its books and accounts under this Part of this Act separate from all other books and accounts of the society or branch, and in such form as may be prescribed by the Insurance Commissioners, and, when required, submit them to audit by auditors to be appointed by the Treasury;

    (b) Submit to have its assets and liabilities under this Part of this Act valued in accordance with the provisions of this Part of this Act;

    (c) In the event of a surplus or deficiency being shown upon any such valuation, comply with the provisions relating to surpluses and deficiencies hereinafter contained;

    (d) Render such returns as the Insurance Commissioners may prescribe.

    (2) Regulations made under this section shall provide for a separate account being kept showing the amount expended on administration, and for limiting the amount which may be carried to that account out of the contributions under this Part of this Act, and for requiring any deficiency in such account (if not otherwise defrayed) to be met forthwith by a special levy.
    (3) The provisions of this Part of this Act relating to accounts audit, valuation and returns shall as respects the transactions of any approved society or branch thereof under this Part of this Act be substituted for such of the provisions of any Act regulating the constitution of the society or branch as deal with the like matters.
    (4) In the case of a society or branch transacting other business besides that of insurance business under this Part of this Act, all funds and credits of the society or branch under this Part of this Act shall be as absolutely the security of the members for the purposes of this Act as if they belonged to a society or branch carrying on no other business than such insurance business, and shall not be liable for any contracts of the society or branch for which they would not have been liable had the business of the society or branch been only that of such insurance, and shall
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    not be applied directly or indirectly for any purposes other than those of insurance business under this Part of this Act.
    Where a separate section of a society has been established and such separate section is an approved society under this Part of this Act, the expression "society" in this subsection means the society of which the separate section has been established and not the separate section.
    Amendments made: In Sub-section (1) (d), leave out the word "prescribe" and insert instead thereof the word "require."
    In Sub-section (4), after the word "this" ["purposes of this Act"], insert the words "part of this."—[Mr. Lloyd George.]

    CLAUSE 34.—(Valuations of Approved Societies.)
    (1) A valuation of the assets and liabilities arising under this Part of this Act of every approved society and of every branch of an approved society shall be made by a valuer, to be appointed by or with the approval of the Treasury, at the expiration of every three years dating from the commencement of this Act, or at such other times as the Insurance Commissioners appoint.
    (2) Every such valuation shall be made on such basis as may be prescribed:
    Provided that it shall be assumed for the purposes of such valuation that the approved society or branch is liable to pay the proportion of the benefits administered by the society, and of the cost of the administration of those benefits which is payable out of the contributions payable by or in respect of the members, that is to say, seven-ninths, or in the case of women three-fourths, of such benefits and cost.
    Amendments made: At end of Sub-section (1), insert the words "the times so appointed may be at shorter or longer intervals than three years and at regular or irregular intervals, and may apply to all approved societies or any particular society or societies."
    Leave out the words, "Provided that it shall be assumed for the purposes of such valuation that the approved society or branch is liable to pay the proportion of the benefits administered by the society, and of the cost of the administration of those benefits which is payable out of the contributions payable by or in respect of the members, that is to say, seven-

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    ninths, or in the case of women three-fourths, of such benefits and costs."—[Mr. Lloyd George.]

    CLAUSE 35.—(Surplus.)
    (1) If upon any such valuation a surplus (certified by the valuer to be disposable) is found, the following provisions shall apply:—

    (a) If the society is a society with branches, any surplus in the central fund of the society, including any surplus transferred from the branches to the society under the provisions of this Section, shall, subject to the provisions of the next succeeding Section of this Act, be applied in the first instance in making good any deficiency shown by any of its branches:

    (b) Subject as aforesaid, the society may submit to the Insurance Commissioners a scheme for distributing out of such surplus any one or more additional benefits among insured persons who are members thereof, and upon any such scheme being sanctioned by the Insurance Commissioners the society may distribute such additional benefit or benefits in accordance with the provisions thereof, or the society, if a society with branches, may in lieu of submitting such a scheme distribute the balance of the surplus, after making good deficiencies as aforesaid, amongst such of its branches as have a balance in proportion to the amounts of such surpluses, and in such case the sum so apportioned to a branch shall be treated as an addition to the disposable surplus of that branch.

    (c) If on the valuation of a branch of an approved society a surplus is shown in respect of such branch, there shall be transferred to the central body or other central authority of the society of which it is a branch one-half of the surplus, and the branch may itself, or through the society, submit to the Insurance Commissioners a scheme for distributing out of the remaining one-half of such surplus, together with any such addition as aforesaid, any one or more additional benefits, and upon any such scheme being sanctioned by the Insurance Commissioners, the branch may distribute such additional benefit or benefits in
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    accordance with the provisions thereof:

    (d) If at any time after a scheme submitted by a society has been so sanctioned as aforesaid there is found to be a deficiency in the funds of the society or of any of its branches which the society is required to make good, or if at any time after a scheme submitted by or on behalf of a branch has been so sanctioned as aforesaid there has been found to be a deficiency in the funds of the branch, no additional benefits shall be distributed under the scheme until such deficiency is extinguished and a surplus shown.

    (2) A scheme made under this Section may prescribe the conditions to be complied with as respects any additional benefit conferred by the scheme, and every such scheme shall so far as practicable provide for the reduction, suspension, or deprivation of the additional benefits conferred by the scheme in the case of members who are in arrears, and may make a corresponding reduction in the amount to which such members are to be deemed to be in arrears for the purpose of reckoning the rate of sickness benefit.
    (3) No surplus and no part of any surplus shall be applied for the purpose of paying any benefits payable on death or any benefits other than one or more of the additional benefits specified in Part II. of the Fourth Schedule to this Act.
    Amendments made: In Sub-section (1), after the word "apply," insert the words,
    "(a) If the society is not a society with branches the society may submit to the Insurance Commissioners a scheme for distributing out of such surplus any one or more additional benefits among insured persons who are members thereof for the purposes of this Part of this Act, and upon any such scheme being sanctioned by the Insurance Commissioners the society may distribute such additional benefit or benefits in accordance with the provisions thereof."
    In paragraph (a), leave out the word "in" ["in making good"], and insert instead thereof the word "towards."
    In paragraph (b), leave out the words, "(b) subject was aforesaid," and insert instead thereof the word "and."
    Leave out the words, "subject to the Insurance Commmissioners a scheme for

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    distributing out of such surplus any one or more additional benefits among insured persons who are members thereof, and upon any such scheme being sanctioned by the Insurance Commissioners the society may distribute such additional benefit or benefits in accordance with the provisions thereof, or the society, if a society with branches, may in lieu of submitting such a scheme."
    Leave out the word "balance," and insert instead thereof the word "surplus."
    Leave out the words "in such case."
    In paragraph (c), leave out the words "one-half," ["one-half of the surplus"], and insert instead thereof the word "one-third."
    Leave out the words "itself, or through," and insert instead thereof the words "with the approval of."
    Leave out the word "one-half" ["remaining one-half"], and insert instead thereof the word "two-thirds."
    In paragraph (d), after the word "society" ["by a society"], insert the words "or branch."
    Leave out the words "or of any of its branches which the society is required to make good, or if at any time after a scheme submitted by or on behalf of a branch has been so sanctioned as aforesaid there has been found to be a deficiency in the funds of the branch."—[Mr. Lloyd George.]

    CLAUSE 36.—(Deficit.)
    (1) If upon any such valuation a deficiency is found, the following provisions shall apply:—
    (a) If the deficiency is shown by a branch of an approved society, it shall, in the first place, so far as possible, be made good out of any surplus in the hands of the central body or other central authority of the society:
    Provided that the society may, if it is satisfied that the deficiency is due to any maladministration on the part of the branch in question, with the consent of the Insurance Commissioners, refuse to make good the deficiency or any part thereof out of such surplus:
    (b) Subject as aforesaid, every deficiency shall be made good in accordance with a scheme for that purpose to be prepared by the society and
    704
    submitted to the Insurance Commissioners for their sanction; such a scheme shall provide for making good the deficiency, within a period of three years from the date at which the valuation was made, in any one or more of the following ways:—

    (i.) By a compulsory levy upon members of the society or branch being insured persons;

    (ii.) By reducing the rate of sickness benefit;

    (iii.) By deferring the day as from which sickness benefit becomes payable;

    (iv.) By reducing the first or the second period of thirteen weeks during which sickness benefit is payable, or both such periods;

    (v.) By increasing the period which is required by this Part of this Act to elapse between two periods of disease or disablement to prevent the one being treated as a continuation of the other,

    and on the sanction of the Insurance Commissioners being given to the scheme the society shall proceed to make good the deficiency in accordance therewith:
    (c) Payment of the amount of any compulsory levy made in accordance with a scheme sanctioned under this section may be enforced in such manner as may be provided by the rules of the society; and where those rules so provide it shall be lawful for the society in the case of any member to enforce payment of the amount of the levy by giving notice in the prescribed manner to the employer of such member requiring him to pay the amount of the levy, and upon such notice being given such amount shall be payable as if it were part of the contribution to be made by the employer on behalf of the member, and all the provisions of this Part of this Act relating to the payment of such contributions and the recovery thereof from members shall apply accordingly:
    (d) If a member chargeable with a levy falls into arrears his arrears shall reckon as though the total sum thereof, inclusive of the levy,

    705
    consisted of weekly sums of the premium payable by him had no levy been made:
    (e) If within six months after the declaration of a deficiency, or where an inquiry as to excessive sickness is pending under this Part of this Act, such longer period as the Insurance Commissioners determine, such scheme as aforesaid has not been submitted to and approved by the Insurance Commissioners, or if at any time thereafter it appears to the Insurance Commissioners that the society or branch to which the scheme relates is not enforcing the provisions of the scheme, the Insurance Commissioners may take over the administration of the affairs of the society or branch under this Part of this Act, and shall as soon as possible thereafter take such steps as they may think necessary to make good the deficiency by any or all of the methods mentioned in paragraph (b) of this Section, and for that purpose they shall be entitled to exercise all or any of the powers given to the society by this Part of this Act:
    (f) The Insurance Commissioners after taking over the administration of the affairs of any society or branch shall within a reasonable time, not exceeding three years, make arrangements for the restoration to the society or branch of its powers of self-government or, failing that, for the transfer of the members of the society or branch, being insured persons, to other approved societies or branches or to the Post Office fund:
    (g) Any question or dispute arising between the Insurance Commissioners and the society in respect of the amount of the deficiency, or as to the adequacy of any scheme proposed for making it good, shall be decided by an independent valuer to be appointed by the Lord Chief Justice:
    (h) A scheme made under this Section shall not affect any person who becomes a member of the society after the date as at which the valuation was made, or any member over seventy years of age:
    (i) Any member of the society or branch, being an insured person, who is transferred to another society or to
    706
    another branch of the same or any other society before the deficiency is made good, shall be liable to any levy or reduction of benefits which may be made in respect of such deficiency in like manner in all respects as if he had not ceased to be a member.
    (2) Any member liable to a levy payable at intervals may relieve himself of the liability thereto, and a member subject to a diminution of benefits by virtue of any such scheme may, with the consent of the society, acquire a right to undiminished benefits on payment to the Insurance Commissioners of the capitalised value of the levy or diminution of benefits, as the case may be, ascertained in the prescribed manner.
    Amendments made: In Sub-section (1) (a), leave out the word "it" ["it shall"], and insert instead thereof the words "three-quarters or, if the society thinks fit, the whole thereof."
    After the word "surplus," insert the words "available for that purpose."
    After the word "good" ["refuse to make good "], insert the words "any part of."
    Leave out the words "or any part thereof."
    In paragraph (b), after the word "society" ["prepared by the Society"], insert the words "or, in the case of a deficiency in a branch, subject to the approval of the society."
    In paragraph (b) (i), after the word "levy," insert the words "by way of increase of the weekly rate of contributions."
    In paragraph (b) (ii), after the word "benefit," insert the words "either for the whole period during which sickness benefit is payable or for any part thereof."
    In paragraph (b) (iv), leave out the words "first or the second."
    Leave out the words "of thirteen weeks."
    Leave out the words "or both such periods."
    At end of paragraph (b) (v), insert the words "(vi) by any other method approved by the Insurance Commissioners."
    After the word "society" ["the society shall proceed"], insert the words "or branch."
    In paragraph (c), after the word "society" ["rules of the society"], insert the words "or branch."
    After the word "society" ["lawful for the society"], insert the words "or branch."
    Leave out the word "made" ["contributions to be made"], and insert instead thereof the word "paid."
    In paragraph (d), leave out the words "weekly sums of the premium payable by," and insert instead thereof the words "contributions payable by or in respect of."
    In paragraph (e), after the word "society" ["powers given to the society"], insert the words "or branch."
    In paragraph (g), after the word "society" ["Commissioners and the society"], insert the words "or branch."
    Leave out the words "decided by," and insert instead thereof the words "submitted to."
    After the word "Justice" ["Lord Chief Justice"], insert the words "and such valuer shall subject to the provisions of this Act and of the regulations thereunder act, so far as practicable, on his own knowledge and experience, and shall have power to determine how and by what parties the costs of proceedings, including his own remuneration, not exceeding such amount as the Treasury may prescribe, are to be defrayed, and his decision shall be final and conclusive."
    In paragraph (h), after the word "society," insert the words "or branch."
    In paragraph (i), after the word "Any," insert the words "insured person who having been a."
    Leave out the words "being an insured person, who," and insert instead thereof the words "at the date as at which the valulation disclosing the deficiency was made."
    After the word "which," insert the words "has been or."
    At end of paragraph (i), insert the words "and if the transfer took place before the scheme imposing the levy or reduction of benefits was sanctioned, such adjustment in the amount of any transfer value paid in respect of him shall be made as the circumstances require."
    In Sub-section (2), after the word "society," insert the words "or branch."—[Mr. Lloyd George.]

    CLAUSE 37.—(Pooling Arrangements in the case of Small Societies.)
    (1) Subject to the provisions of this Section all approved societies which at the date of any valuation have less than five thousand insured persons as members, shall, for the purposes of valuation—

    (a) if they have joined an association formed under this Section, be associated with the other societies in the same association; and

    (b) if they have not joined any such association, be grouped together according to the localities in which they carry on business.

    (2) Any such societies may, with the consent of the Insurance Commissioners, form for the purposes of this Section an association with a central financial committee, provided that the aggregate number of insured persons who are members of the associated societies is not less than five thousand, and the conditions on which a society shall be entitled to join, or having joined to secede from, an association, shall be such as may be prescribed.
    (3) Any such society which has not joined any such association as aforesaid, and which carries on business in any county or county borough, shall, for the purposes of this section, be grouped with the other unassociated societies carrying on business in the same county or county borough.
    (4) The provisions of this Part of this Act as to the application of surpluses of branches of societies with branches shall apply to such associated and grouped societies as if all the societies in any association or group were branches of a single society, subject to the following modifications:—

    (a) A reference to central financial committee or the local Health Committee for the county or county borough shall, as the case may require, be substituted for the reference to the central authority of the society;

    (b) If after applying the sums received from such of the associated or grouped societies as have surpluses in meeting deficiencies of such of those societies as have deficiencies, any balance remains in the hands of the central financial committee or the local Health Committee, the committee shall distribute that balance amongst such of the associated or grouped societies as had

    709
    surpluses, in proportion to the amounts of such surpluses, and the sum so apportioned to a society shall be treated as an addition to the moiety of the disposable surplus retained by the society.

    (5) For the purposes of this Section a society shall be deemed to carry on business only in the county or county borough in which its registered office or other principal place of business is situate:
    Provided that where of the insured persons who are members of a grouped society at the date of any valuation more than one hundred or more than one-sixth reside in some county or county borough other than that in which the registered office or other principal place of business is situate the proper proportion of any surplus or deficiency of the society shall, if application for the purpose is made by any of the local Health Committees concerned, be apportioned to the local Health Committee of that other county or county borough, such proportion to be determined, in default of agreement between the local Health Committees concerned, by the Insurance Commissioners.
    (6) The Insurance Commissioners may exempt from this section any society consisting of persons entitled to rights in a provident or other fund established for the benefit of persons employed by one or more employers, if the employer, in addition to the contributions payable by him under this Part of this Act, is responsible for the solvency of the fund, or for the benefits payable thereout, or is liable to pay a substantial part of, or to make substantial contributions to, or substantially to supplement the benefits payable out of the fund, and this section shall not apply to any society to which such an exemption has been granted.
    (7) Except so far as relates to the power of refusing to make good in whole or in part a deficiency due to maladministration on the part of any society, nothing in this section shall be construed as conferring on any central financial committee or local health committee any powers of control over the administration of associated or grouped societies.
    Amendments made: In Sub-section (1), after the word "members" ["persons as members"], insert the words "for the purposes of this Part of the Act."
    After the word "of" ["for the purposes of"], insert the word "the."
    In Sub-section (2), after the word "entitled" ["entitled to join"], insert the words "or allowed."
    In Sub-section (4), paragraph (a), after the word "to" ["to central financial committee"], insert the word "the."
    Leave out paragraph (b) and insert instead thereof,
    (b) The approval of the central financial committee or local health committee shall not be required to any scheme prepared by an associated or grouped society for the distribution of any surplus.
    At end of paragraph (b) insert,
    (5) Where an associated or grouped society is a society with branches, the provisions of this Part of this Act relating to surpluses and deficiencies of societies with branches shall not apply to the society but each branch shall for the purposes of this Section be deemed to be a separate society.
    In Sub-section (6) leave out the words "provident or other" ["provident or other fund"], and insert instead the words "superannuation or other provident."—[Mr. Lloyd George.]

    CLAUSE 38.—(Special Provisions with regard to Societies Organised according to Districts, etc.)
    (1) Where a society with branches is so organised that the branches in different geographical areas are grouped together for the purposes of this Section, the branches in any such area may, if and to such extent as the rules of the society so provide, and if the number of members of the branches in the area exceed five thousand, be treated for the purposes of the provisions of this Part of this Act relating to valuations, surpluses, and deficiencies as if they formed a separate society.
    (2) The rules of any society with branches may provide for the branches reinsuring with the society their liabilities in respect of any of the benefits under this Part of this Act, or if the society is so organised as aforesaid for such reinsurance either with the society or with the group.
    Amendments made: In Sub-section (1), after the word "branches" ["members of the branches"], insert the words "being insured persons."
    At the end of Sub-section (2) to add,
    (3) Where a society with branches has among members insured persons who

    711
    are not members of any branch, and the benefits of such members are administered by the society itself, such members shall be treated for the purposes of this Part of this Act relating to valuations, surpluses, and deficiencies as if they formed a separate branch.—[Mr. Lloyd George.]

    CLAUSE 39.—(Provisions as to Deposit Contributors.)
    Until the first day of January nineteen hundred and fifteen, the following provisions shall apply in the case of insured persons (in this Act referred to as deposit contributors) who have not joined an approved society within the prescribed time, or who, having been members of an approved society, have been expelled or have resigned therefrom and have not joined another approved society:—

    (a) Contributions by or in respect of a deposit contributor shall be credited to a special fund to be called the Post Office fund:

    (b) The sums required for the payment of any sickness, disablement, or maternity benefit payable to a deposit contributor, except so far as they are payable out of moneys provided by Parliament, shall be paid out of the money standing to his credit in the Post Office fund, and his right to benefits under this Part of this Act shall be suspended on the sums standing to his credit in that fund being exhausted, except that his right to medical benefit and sanatorium benefit shall continue until the expiration of the then current year, and that the local health committee, if it has funds available for the purpose and thinks fit so to do, may allow him to continue to receive medical benefit or sanatorium benefit or both such benefits after the expiration of such year:

    (c) Such sum as may be prescribed shall in each year be payable in respect of each deposit contributor towards the expenses incurred by the local health committee in the administration of benefits:

    (d) Such sum as the local health committee may, with the consent of the Insurance Commissioners, determine shall in each year be payable in respect of each deposit contributor for the purposes of the cost of medical benefit:

    712

    (e) The sums payable in respect of a deposit contributor for the purposes of medical benefit and sanatorium benefit, and towards the expenses of administration, shall, except so far as they are payable out of moneys provided by Parliament, be deducted at the commencement of each year from the amount standing to his credit in the Post Office fund:

    (f) The amount standing in the Post Office fund to the credit of any deposit contributor shall, upon his dying, be forfeited.

    Amendments made: In Sub-section (7), after the word "not" ["have not joined another"], insert the words "within the prescribed time."
    At the end of Sub-section (7), paragraph (e), insert the words "and if at the commencement of any year the amount so standing to his credit is insufficient to provide such sums he shall not, unless the local health committee consents, and except subject to such conditions as that committee may impose, be entitled to any benefits during that year."
    At the beginning of paragraph (b) insert the words, "Upon the death of a deposit contributor four-sevenths (or in the case of a woman one-half) of."
    In paragraph (e) after the word "standing" ["The amount standing"], insert the words "to his credit."
    In paragraph (f) leave out the words "to the credit of any deposit contributor shall, upon his dying," and insert instead thereof the words "shall be paid to his nominee or, in default of a nomination, to the person entitled to receive the sum as if it were money payable on the death of a member of a registered friendly society, and the balance thereof shall."—[Mr. Lloyd George.]

    CLAUSE 40.—(Transfer from Approved Society to Deposit Insurance and vice versâ.)
    (1) If an insured person, being a member of an approved society, ceases to be a member of that society, whether voluntarily or by expulsion, and fails to become a member of another approved society, then—

    (a) if he becomes a deposit contributor, his transfer value shall be carried to his credit in the Post Office fund: Provided that if a reserve value is credited to the society in respect of him, that reserve value shall be

    713
    cancelled and the difference between the transfer value and the reserve value shall be carried to the credit of the depositor;

    (b) if he does not become a deposit contributor, his transfer value shall be carried to such account and dealt with in such manner as may be prescribed.

    (2) If an insured person who is a deposit contributor subsequently becomes a member of an approved society for the purposes of this Part of this Act, there shall be transferred to the society the amount standing to his credit in the Post Office fund:
    Provided that—

    (a) if that amount exceeds the value of the contributions paid by or in respect of him estimated on the assumption that he had been a member of an approved society since his entry into insurance, the excess shall not be transferred to the society but shall be carried to the credit of the Post Office fund;

    (b) if that amount is less than such value the insured person shall be treated as being in arrear to the amount of the deficiency.

    Amendments made: In Sub-section (1), after the word "become" ["fails to become"], insert the words "within the prescribed time."
    In paragraph (a), leave out the word "is" ["is credited to"], and insert instead thereof the words "has been."
    After the word "him" ["in respect of him"], insert the words "such part of."
    After the word "value" ["reserve value"], insert the words "as is still outstanding (or if the amount so outstanding exceeds the transfer value such part of the reserve value as is equal to the transfer value)."
    Leave out the words "difference between" ["difference between the transfer"], and insert instead thereof the words "amount, if any, by which."
    Leave out the word "and" ["and the reserve value"], and insert instead thereof the word "exceeds."
    Leave out the words "reserve value" ["reserve value shall"], and insert instead thereof the words "amount so cancelled."—[Mr. Lloyd George.]

    CLAUSE 41.—(Special Provisions with respect to Married Women.)
    (1) Where a woman who, having before marriage been an insured person, marries, she shall be suspended from receiving the ordinary benefits under this Part of this Act until the death of her husband, and if she is a member of an approved society one-third of her transfer value shall be carried to a separate account called the married women's suspense account, but if at any time after the death of her husband she again becomes employed within the meaning of this Part of this Act, the period between her marriage and the expiration of one month from death of her husband shall be disregarded for the purpose of reckoning arrears, and there shall be transferred from the married women's suspense account to the society of which she is a member the proper reserve value calculated according to tables to be prepared by the Insurance Commissioners:
    Provided that where a woman who, having been employed within the meaning of this Part of this Act before marriage, proves that she continues to be so employed after marriage, she shall not be so suspended so long as she continues to be so employed, and that where a married woman so suspended from the ordinary benefit becomes employed within the meaning of this Act before such death, contributions shall thereupon again become payable in respect of her, and she shall cease to be suspended from receiving the ordinary benefits, but, subject to regulations made by the Insurance Commissioners, she shall for the purposes of those benefits be treated as if she had not previously been an insured person.
    (2) Where a married woman being a member of an approved society is so suspended from the ordinary benefits as aforesaid, she may, if she so elects within one month after such suspension, or, subject to the consent of the society, after the expiration of that month, and notwithstanding that she is not engaged in any regular occupation, become whilst so suspended a voluntary contributor, subject to the following modifications, but not otherwise:—

    (a) The rate of contributions payable by her shall be threepence a week;

    (b) The benefits to which she shall be entitled shall be—

    (i) medical benefit; and

    (ii) sickness benefit and disablement benefit at the rates and

    715
    subject to the conditions specified in Table D. of Part I. of the Fourth Schedule to this Act;

    (c) No part of her contributions shall be retained by the Insurance Commissioners for the purpose of discharging their liabilities to approved societies in respect of the reserve values created under this Act:

    Provided that where a married woman elects not to become such a voluntary contributor she shall be entitled to have a sum equal to the remaining two-thirds of her transfer value applied in accordance with regulations of the Insurance Commissioners towards the payment of any of the benefits specified in Part III. of the Fourth Schedule to this Act until the same is exhausted, except that where a reserve value was credited to the society in respect of such woman at the date of her entrance into insurance so much of such sum as aforesaid as may be prescribed shall not be so applied but shall be written off the amount of the reserve value credited to the society.
    (3) Where the husband of a married woman who has been so suspended from ordinary benefits as aforesaid and who is a member of an approved society dies, she may, if she is qualified to become a voluntary contributor, and elects to do so within one month after the death of her husband, become an ordinary voluntary contributor paying contributions at the rate which would have been applicable to the case had she become such a contrbutor at the date of her entry into insurance:
    Provided that she may, whether or not so qualified, if she so elects within one month after the death of her husband, continue to be or become a voluntary contributor on the same terms and subject to the same conditions as above provided as respects married women.
    In either such case there shall be transferred from the married women's suspense account to the society the proper reserve value calculated as aforesaid.
    (4) Where a married woman who was at the date of her marriage a deposit contributor is by virtue of this section suspended from the ordinary benefits under this Part of this Act, two-thirds of the sum standing to her credit in the Post Office fund shall be applied in accordance with the regulations of the Insurance Commissioners towards the payment of any of the benefits specified in Part III. of the Fourth
    716
    Schedule to this Act until the same is exhausted.
    (5) Where a woman who was a married woman living with and supported by her husband at the commencement of this Act at any time subsequently either before or within one year after the death of her husband becomes an employed contributor and a member of an approved society, she shall be entitled to full benefits notwithstanding that at the time of so becoming she is over the age of sixteen.
    (6) Where any arrears of contributions have accrued due in respect of a married woman during coverture such arrears shall, on the death, of her husband, be disregarded and she shall be thenceforth entitled to benefits as if such arrears had never accrued due.
    (7) Except as provided by this section a married woman shall not be entitled to become a voluntary contributor, and if a woman is before marriage a voluntary contributor she shall on marriage not be entitled to continue to be such a contributor.
    (8) If a woman, whilst a voluntary contributor at such reduced rates of benefit as are provided by this Section, becomes employed within the meaning of this Part of this Act she shall be entitled to a certificate (to be granted in manner hereinbefore provided) exempting her from liability to become an employed contributor so, however, that such exemption shall not exempt the employer from his liability to pay contributions in respect of her, or deprive him of his right to recover such part of those contributions as is payable on her behalf, but of each weekly contribution so paid by the employer three-pence shall be treated as her contribution as a voluntary contributor and the balance shall be applied for her benefit in such manner as the society may determine.
    (9) If at any time the married women's suspense account is insufficient to meet the liabilities imposed on it by this Section the deficiency shall be made good out of the sums retained by the Insurance Commissioners for discharging their liabilities in respect of the reserve values created by this Act.
    (10) Transfer value for the purpose of this Section shall be calculated in such manner as the Insurance Commissioners may prescribe.
    (11) Where a deficiency has been found in respect of the society or branch of which a woman is a member at a valuation

    717
    previous to the time when she became suspended from ordinary benefits under this Part of this Act, and that deficiency has not been made good at that time of her marriage, or where a woman is in arrears at that time, such adjustments in the sums transferred to the married women's suspense account, and the balance of her transfer value, and in the rates of benefit to which she is entitled under this Section, shall be made as the Insurance Commissioners may prescribe.
    (12) Save as aforesaid, the provisions of this Part of this Act shall apply to a woman who has been married, both during and after coverture, in like manner as if she had never been married.
    (13) This Section shall apply in the case of a woman whose marriage has been dissolved or annulled, or who has for a period of not less than two years been actually separated from or deserted by her husband, as if her husband had died at the date at which such dissolution or annulment took effect, or, as the case may require, at the expiration of such period of two years.
    Amendments made: In Sub-section (1) leave out the word "having" ["having before marriage"], and insert instead thereof the word "has."
    Leave out the word "again" ["she again becomes employed."].
    Leave out the words, "employed within the meaning of this Part of this Act," and insert "an employed contributor."
    After the word "from" ["from death of her husband"] insert the word "the."
    Leave out the word "having" ["having been employed"] and insert instead thereof the word "has."
    After the word "this" ["this Act"] insert the words "Part of this."
    Leave out the words "such death" ["before such death"] and insert instead thereof the words "the death of her husband."
    In Sub-section (5) leave out the words "living with and supported by her husband."
    In Sub-section (10), at end, insert,
    (11) Where a woman is a member of an approved society at the time when she is entitled to exercise an option under this Section, it shall be the duty of the society to give her full information as to the nature of her rights.
    In Sub-section (11), leave out the word "that" ["at that time"], and insert instead thereof the word "the."
    After the word "and" ["and the balance of her"], insert the words "in."—[Mr. Lloyd George.]

    CLAUSE 42.—(Special Provisions as to Aliens.)
    (1) This Part of this Act shall apply to persons over the age of sixteen at the date of entry into insurance who are not British subjects, subject to the following modifications:—

    (a) No such person shall be qualified to become a member of an approved society for the purposes of this Part of this Act;

    (b) No part of the benefits to which such persons may become entitled shall be paid out of moneys provided by Parliament;

    (c) The rate of sickness, disablement, and maternity benefit shall be reduced, in the case of men, to seven-ninths, or in the case of women to three-quarters, of the rate to which they would otherwise be entitled under this Part of this Act;

    (d) No part of the sums payable in respect of such persons for medical benefit and sanatorium benefit or towards the expenses of administration of benefits shall in the case of such persons be paid out of moneys provided by Parliament:

    Provided that any such person may become a member of an approved society on the terms and subject to the conditions hereinafter mentioned, and in such case the following provisions shall have effect:—

    (i.) The contributions payable by or in respect of such person shall be credited to the society;

    (ii.) The society shall in each year pay to the local health committee the sums payable in respect of such person for medical benefit and sanatorium benefit;

    (iii.) The rate and conditions of sickness benefit, and disablement benefit, and maternity benefit shall be such as may be determined by the benefit society;

    (iv.) Such person shall not be deemed to have joined an approved society for the purpose of this Part of this Act relating to reserve values, and no part of the contributions of such person shall be retained by the Insurance Commissioners towards the

    719
    discharge of their liabilities in respect of reserve values.

    (2) This Section shall not apply to any person who, on the fourth day of May, nineteen hundred and eleven, was a member of a society which shall become an approved society and has been resident for five years in the United Kingdom.
    (3) For the purposes of this Section a woman who, having been a British subject before marriage, has ceased to be a British subject by reason of marriage with a person not being a British subject, shall not be subject to the provisions of this Section if her husband is dead, or the marriage has been dissolved or annulled, or she has for a period of not less than two years been actually separated from or deserted by her husband.
    (4) This Section shall not apply to any person who is transferred to an approved society or the Post Office fund in pursuance of an arrangement with the Government of any foreign State.
    Amendments made: In Sub-section (1), paragraph (a), at end, insert the words "except upon the terms and subject to the conditions hereinafter mentioned."
    Leave out the words, "Provided that any such person may become a member of an approved society on the terms and subject to the conditions hereinafter mentioned, and in such case," and insert instead thereof, "(2) Where such a person becomes a member of an approved society."
    In paragraph (iii), leave out the word "benefit" ["the benefit society"].
    In paragraph (iv), leave out the word "purpose" ["for the purpose of this part of"], and insert instead thereof the words "purposes of the provisions of."
    Leave out Sub-section (2).
    In Sub-section (3), leave out the words "For the purposes of this Section."
    In Sub-section (4), after the word "apply" ["section shall not apply"], insert the words "to any person who on the fourth day of May, nineteen hundred and eleven, was a member of a society which, or a separate section of which, becomes an approved society, and had then been resident in the United Kingdom for five years or upwards, or to."—[Mr. Lloyd George.]

    CLAUSE 43.—(Special Provisions with Regard to Persons in the Naval and Military Service of the Crown.)
    (1) For the purpose of providing seamen, marines, and soldiers with such benefits
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    during their term of service and after their return to civil life as are hereinafter in this Section mentioned, there shall be deducted from the pay of every seaman and marine within the meaning of the Naval and Marine Pay and Pensions Act, 1865, and of every soldier of the regular forces (other than soldiers of His Majesty's Indian Forces, who are natives of India, the Royal Malta Artillery, and native soldiers of any regiment raised outside the United Kingdom), the sum of one penny halfpenny a week, and there shall be contributed by the Admiralty and the Army Council respectively, out of moneys provided by Parliament for navy and army services, in respect of every such seaman, marine, and soldier who has joined an approved society in the manner hereafter mentioned the sum of one penny halfpenny per week, and in respect of every other such seaman, marine, and soldier such sum per week as may be prescribed:
    Provided that no such deduction shall be made from the pay of a seaman, marine or soldier who has completed the period of his first engagement and has re-engaged for pension unless he so elects within the prescribed time, and that no contribution shall be made by the Admiralty or Army Council in respect of any week in respect of which such a deduction is not made.
    (2) A seaman, marine, or soldier—

    (a) who was at the date of his entry or enlistment an insured person and had joined and was at that date a member of an approved society; or

    (b) who within six months from the date of his entry or enlistment, or, in the ease of a seaman, marine, or soldier serving at the commencement of this Act, within six months after the commencement of this Act, or within such longer period as may be prescribed, joins an approved society for the purposes of this Part of this Act;

    shall for the purposes of this Part of this Act be treated as if he were an employed contributor, subject, until his discharge, in the following modifications:—

    (i) The employed rate shall be three pence, and the deductions made from his pay and the contributions made in respect of him by the Admiralty or Army Council shall be treated as the contributions paid in respect of him;

    721

    (ii) He shall not be entitled under this Part of this Act to medical benefit, sanatorium benefit, sickness benefit, or disablement benefit;

    (iii) Maternity benefit shall be payable notwithstanding that both he and his wife are resident outside the United Kingdom at the date of the confinement, and the society may arrange with the Admiralty or Army Council for the administration of the benefit through the Admiralty or Army Council;

    (iv) The sum to be retained out of each weekly contribution by the Insurance Commissioners towards the discharge of their liabilities in respect of reserve values shall be one penny, and the remaining five-ninths of a penny shall be paid out of the Navy and Army Insurance Fund hereinafter constituted.

    (3) With respect to seamen, marines, and soldiers who have not joined an approved society as aforesaid, the following provisions shall have effect:—

    (a) The sums so deducted and the contributions so made as aforesaid in respect of such men shall be paid into the National Health Insurance Fund, and out of such sums there shall be retained by the Insurance Commissioners towards discharging their liabilities in respect of the reserve values created under this Part of this Act the like amount as if such men were members of approved societies, and the balance shall be credited to a special fund to be called the Navy and Army Insurance Fund:

    (b) There shall also be paid into the Navy and Army Insurance Fund in each year out of moneys provided by Parliament a sum equal to two-ninths of the amount, calculated in the prescribed manner, which would have been payable in that year in respect of medical sanatorium sickness and disablement benefits (including expenses of administration) had all seamen, marines, and soldiers from whose pay deductions are made under this Section been members of approved societies and entitled to such benefits as employed contributors:

    (c) The weekly contributions to be made by the Admiralty and Army Council
    722
    in respect of such men shall be such as may from time to time be required to keep the Navy and Army Insurance Fund solvent:

    (d) If any such man was at the date of his entry or enlistment a deposit contributor he shall, for the purpose of dealings with the sum standing to his credit in the Post Office fund, be treated as if the Navy and Army Insurance Fund had been an approved society, and he had at the date of his entry or enlistment become a member of that society:

    (e) In the case of a seaman, marine, or soldier serving at the commencement of this Act there shall be credited to the Navy and Army Insurance Fund such reserve value as would have been credited to an approved society had he at that date become a member of the society as an employed contributor: Provided that no such reserve value shall be credited to that fund if at the date aforesaid he had re-engaged for pension, unless he elects to have deductions made from his pay or unless, not having so elected, he becomes on discharge entitled to benefits payable out of that fund as hereinafter mentioned:

    (f) Every such man shall until discharged be entitled to maternity benefit payable out of the Navy and Army Insurance Fund, and shall be entitled to such benefit notwithstanding that both he and his wife are at the date of the confinement resident outside the United Kingdom, and the benefit shall be ad ministered by the Admiralty and Army Council either directly or through local health committees:

    (g) On the discharge of a seaman, marine, or soldier, from whose pay deductions have been made and continue to be made up to the date of his discharge there shall be debited to the Navy and Army Insurance Fund, and if he becomes a member of an approved society within the prescribed time from his discharge there shall be credited to that society, or if he does not become a member of such a society within the prescribed time from his discharge, there shall, unless he becomes entitled to benefits out of the Navy and Army Insurance Fund as hereinafter mentioned, be carried to his

    723
    credit in the Post Office fund the transfer value which would have been payable in respect of him had he been a member of an approved society during his period of service, and in the latter case the reserve value, if any, credited to the Navy and Army Investment Fund in respect of him shall be cancelled:

    (h) a man discharged from service as a seaman, marine, or soldier who proves that the state of his health is such that he cannot obtain admission to an approved society may, if he so elects, on making application to the Insurance Commissioners in the prescribed manner and within three months of his discharge, or such longer time as may be prescribed, become, subject to regulations made by the Insurance Commissioners after consultation with the Admiralty and Army Council, entitled to benefits (other than additional benefits) prescribed under this Part of this Act at the full rate, the cost of which benefits shall be payable out of the Navy and Army Insurance Fund, and such benefits shall be administered by local health committees or otherwise in such manner as may be prescribed by such regulations as aforesaid, and any contributions paid under this Part of this Act by or in respect of him shall be paid into that fund:

    Provided that—

    (i.) no deduction from benefits shall be made on account of any pension to which a man may be entitled;

    (ii.) the rate of sickness benefit shall be reduced, in the case of a man who entered into insurance after the age of sixteen or who is in arrears, to the like extent as it would be reduced in the case of an employed contributor who is a member of an approved society who entered into insurance at the like age or who is in arrears to the like extent, so however that the rate of sickness benefit shall in no case be reduced below five shillings a week;

    (iii.) there shall in each year be repaid to the special fund, out of moneys provided by Parliament, a sum equal to two-ninths of the amount expended out of the fund on such benefits as aforesaid, including the expenses of administration.

    (4) In the application of this Part of this Act to a man who is or has been a seaman, marine, or soldier, and to whom this section applies—

    (i.) the date of his entry or enlistment as a seaman, marine, or soldier, or, if he was serving at the commencement of this Act, the date of that commencement, shall, unless he was an insured person at the date of his entry or enlistment, be treated as the date of his entry into insurance;

    (ii.) deductions from pay, with the corresponding contributions made by the Admiralty and Army Council, shall be treated as payments of contributions at the employed rate for the purpose of reckoning the number of contributions made in respect of him, arrears, and transfer value, and for the purpose of qualifications for becoming a voluntary contributor.

    (5) Discharge shall in the case of a seaman, marine, or soldier who on the completion of any term of service is transferred to a reserve include such transfer.
    (6) The foregoing provisions of this section shall, subject to such adaptations and modifications as may be prescribed, apply to men belonging to the Naval Reserve when employed on service during war, and to men of the Army Reserves when called out on permanent service, and to men of the Territorial Force when called out on embodiment or any emergency, but, except as aforesaid, shall not apply to any such men.
    (7) Where a man of the Naval Reserves, the Army Reserve, or the Territorial Force is being trained and is in receipt of pay out of the moneys provided by Parliament for Navy or Army services, he shall for the purposes of this Part of this Act be deemed whilst so engaged to be in the employment of the Crown.
    Amendments made: In Sub-section (1), leave out the words "who are natives of India."
    In Sub-section (2), paragraph (ii.) leave out the words "under this Part of the Act."
    In Sub-section (3), after the word "he" ["unless he elects"], insert the words "had completed the period of his first engagement and."
    In paragraph (g), leave out the word "during" ["during his period of service"], and insert instead thereof the word "throughout."
    After the word "service" ["period of service"], insert the words "or in the case of a man serving at the date of the commencement of this Act since that date."
    Leave out the words "in the latter case," and insert instead thereof the words "if he becomes a deposit contributor."
    After the word "case" ["in the latter case"], insert the words "so much of."
    Leave out the word "Investment" ["Army Investment Fund"], and insert instead thereof the word "Insurance."
    After the word "cancelled" ["shall be cancelled"], insert the words "as would have been cancelled had he been transferred from an approved society to the Post Office fund."
    In paragraph (h), leave out the word "and" ["and within three months."]
    In paragraph (ii.), leave out the word "after" ["after the age of sixteen"], and insert the words "when over."
    Leave out the words "in the case of" ["reduced in the case of"], and insert instead thereof the words "had he been."
    Leave out the words "who is" ["who is a member"], and insert instead thereof the word "and."
    In paragraph (iii.), leave out the word "special" ["special fund"], and insert instead thereof the words "Navy and Army Insurance."
    In paragraph (iii.), at end, add,
    (iv.) If a man who is so entitled to benefits payable out of the Navy and Army Insurance Fund at any time becomes a member of an approved society for the purposes of this Part of this Act he shall cease to be entitled to benefits payable out of that fund, and there shall be debited to that fund and credited to such society the transfer.
    In Sub-section (4), paragraph (ii.), at end, add,
    (iii.) a seaman, marine, or soldier during his term of service shall, if he has joined an approved society as aforesaid before his entry or enlistment, be deemed to reside in that part of the United Kingdom in which he resided immediately before his entry or enlistment, or, if after his entry or enlistment, in the part of the United Kingdom in which the registered office or other principal place of business of the society or branch which he has joined is situate, and in
    726
    any other case in England, and all persons entitled to benefits payable out of the Navy and Army Insurance Fund shall be deemed to reside in England.
    In Sub-section (5), at end, add,
    (6) This section shall not apply to a seaman, marine, or soldier who entered or enlisted before the age of sixteen until he attains that age, and on attaining that age shall apply to him as if he had entered or enlisted at the time when he attained that age.—[Mr. Lloyd George.]

    CLAUSE 44.—(Special Provisions where Employer Liable to pay Wages during Sickness.)
    (1) The Insurance Commissioners shall from time to time make special orders specifying any classes of employment in which a custom is shown to their satisfaction to prevail according to which the persons employed receive full remuneration during periods of disease or disablement, and where the custom is confined to certain localities the order shall also specify the localities in which the custom prevails, and, subject to the provisions of this Section, the order may contain such incidental, supplemental, and consequential provisions as appear necessary for adapting the other provisions of this Part of this Act to cases under this Section.
    (2) It shall be lawful for any employer who employs persons in any class of employment specified in any such order, within a locality (if the custom is confined to certain localities) so specified, to give to the Insurance Commissioners the prescribed notice, and thereupon the employer shall, as respects all such persons, be subject to the liabilities, and this Part of this Act shall apply in respect of all such persons, subject to the modifications hereinafter mentioned. Nothing in this Section shall relieve any employer of legal liability to pay wages during sickness to any person employed by him in accordance with any established custom.
    (3) The employer shall be liable to pay full remuneration to every such person during any period or periods not exceeding six weks in the aggregate in any one year during which such person may be suffering from any disease or disablement commencing while such person is in his employment, notwithstanding that such person may have left his employment before the expiration of that time:
    Provided that if any such person is engaged for a term of not less than six

    727
    months certain the employer shall be liable to pay full remuneration during any period of disease or disablement lasting less than six weeks, and for the first six weeks of any period of disease or disablement lasting more than six weeks, notwithstanding that the aggregate exceeds six weeks, but where any such period extends beyond the terms of the engagement, he shall not be liable to make any payment in respect of any part thereof after the expiration of such term.
    (4) This Part of this Act shall apply in respect of persons so employed as aforesaid, subject to the following modifications:—

    (a) Sickness benefit shall not be payable in respect of any period during which full remuneration is payable by the employer under this Section, but for the purpose of calculating the rate and duration thereof, shall be deemed to have been paid for six weeks before the date as from which it becomes actually payable:

    (b) The employed rate shall be reduced by two pence (or, where the employed contributor is a woman, one penny halfpenny):

    (c) The weekly contributions payable by the employer shall be reduced by one penny (or, where the employed contributor is a woman, one halfpenny), and the weekly contributions payable by the employed contributor shall be reduced by one penny:

    (d) There shall be credited to the approved society of which any such person is a member, or, if he is a deposit contributor, to his account in the Post Office fund, the difference between the amount of contributions at such reduced rate actually paid in respect of him and the amount which would have been paid if those contributions had been at the full rate, and the amount of that difference shall be treated as having been expended on sickness benefit, and the proper proportion thereof shall accordingly be paid out of moneys provided by Parliament:

    (e) Contributions shall not be payable in respect of any period of disease or disablement during which full remuneration is payable under this Section if the prescribed notice has been given:

    (f) The rules of an approved society or local health committee as to notices
    728
    and proof of disease and disablement may extend to periods of disease and disablement during which full remuneration is payable under this Section.

    (5) Where a person on ceasing to be so employed becomes temporarily unemployed, paragraphs (b) and (d) of the last foregoing Sub-section shall continue to apply in respect of him, and sickness benefit shall not be payable in respect of the first six weeks of any period of disease or disablement, commencing after he ceased to be so employed, but for the purpose of calculating the rate and duration thereof shall be deemed to have been paid during those six weeks, and notwithstanding anything in this Part of this Act a disease or disablement shall not for the purposes of sickness benefit be treated as a continuation of a previous disease or disablement unless the medical practitioner attending such person certifies that it in fact is so.
    (6) Where such a person as aforesaid ceases to be employed within the meaning of this Part of this Act, and is entitled to become a voluntary contributor paying contributions at the employed rate, paragraphs (b) and (d) of Sub-section (4) shall, if he becomes a voluntary contributor, continue to apply in respect of him, and sickness benefit shall not be payable in respect of the first six weeks of any period of disease or disablement commencing after he became a voluntary contributor, but, for the purpose of calculating the rate and duration thereof, shall be deemed to have been paid during those six weeks, and notwithstanding anything in this Part of this Act a disease or disablement shall not, for the purposes of sickness benefit, be treated as a continuation of a previous disease or disablement unless the medical practitioner attending such person certifies that it in fact is so:
    Provided that if any such person at any time wishes to become an ordinary voluntary contributor, he may become such after the payment of twenty-six weekly contributions at the full rate, or if the society of which he is a member consents after the payment of such less number of such contributions as the society may appoint.
    (7) Where any employers wish to avail themselves of the provisions of this Section as respects the person employed by them in a class of employment, or in a locality in which no such custom as afore-

    729
    said exists, they may apply to the Insurance Commissioners, and the Commissioners, if, after ascertaining the views of the persons so employed, they think fit, may make a special order extending the provisions of this Section as respects the applicants to the class of employment or locality mentioned in the application as if it were a class of employment or locality in which such a custom as aforesaid prevailed.
    (8) Any question as to whether an employer is entitled to avail himself of the provisions of this Section as respects any persons employed by him shall be determined by the local health committee, subject to appeal to the Insurance Commissioners.
    (9) The payment of contributions purporting to be at the reduced rate authorised by this Section as respects any persons employed by an employer in any class of employment, shall be conclusive evidence that he is, as respects those persons and all other persons employed by him in the same class of employment in the same locality, under the liability imposed by this Section.
    (10) An employer who has given such notice as aforesaid may, by giving three months' previous notice to the local health committee, withdraw his notice as from the commencement of the next calendar year, and in such case, as from that date this Section shall cease to apply in respect of the persons employed by him in the class of employment to which the notice of withdrawal relates.
    (11) None of the provisions of this Section shall apply as respects any person employed at a rate of remuneration which is less than ten sailings a week.
    Amendments made: "In Sub-section (1), after the word "custom" ["in which a custom is shown"], insert the words "or practice."
    After the word "disablement" ["of disease or disablement"] insert the words "or any part thereof."
    After the word "custom" ["where the custom is confined "] insert the words "or practice."
    In Sub-section (2), leave out the words "nothing in this Section shall relieve any employer of legal liability to pay wages during sickness to any person employed by him in accordance with any established custom."
    In Sub-section (7), after the word "custom" ["such custom as aforesaid exists"], to insert the words "or practice."
    After the word "custom" ["in which such a custom as aforesaid"] insert the words "or practice."
    In Sub-section (11), at end to add,
    (12) Nothing in this Section shall relieve any employer from any legal liability to pay wages during sickness to any person employed by him in accordance with any established custom.—[Mr. Lloyd George.]

    CLAUSE 45.—(Special Provisions as to the Mercantile Marine.)
    In the application of this Part of this Act to masters, seamen, and apprentices to the sea service and the sea fishing service the following provisions shall have effect:—

    (1) Neither sickness benefit nor disablement benefit shall be paid to a master, seaman, or apprentice suffering from any disease or disablement in respect of any period during which the owner of the ship is under the Merchant Shipping Act, 1894, as amended by any subsequent enactment or otherwise, liable to defray the expense of the necessary surgical and medical advice and attendance and medicine, and of his maintenance, but for the purpose of calculating the rate and duration of sickness benefit such benefit shall be deemed to have been paid from the commencement of the disease or disablement until the determination of such liability as aforesaid, and he shall not be entitled to medical benefit during such period:

    (2) In the case of masters, seamen, and apprentices serving on a foreign-going ship or a ship engaged in regular trade on foreign stations, the employed rate and the employers' contributions shall each be reduced by one penny a week, and every four weekly contributions paid in any calendar year by a master, seaman, or apprentice whilst serving on such a ship shall, for the purposes of determining the number of contributions to be paid by him in that year and for the purposes of calculating arrears, be treated as five such contributions:

    Provided that—

    (a) nothing in this provision shall affect the number of em-

    731
    ployer's contributions to be paid in respect of such a master, seaman, or apprentice, but no employer's contributions payable in respect of any week in respect of which no contribution is payable by the master, seaman, or apprentice shall be taken into account in reckoning the amount of his arrears;

    (b) there shall be credited to the approved society of which the master, seaman, or apprentice is a member, or if he is a deposit contributor to his account in the Post Office fund, a sum equal to two-fifths of the amount of the contributions actually paid in respect of him, and an equal sum shall be treated as having been expended on sickness benefit, and the proper proportion thereof shall accordingly be paid out of moneys provided by Parliament:

    (3) A master, seaman, or apprentice who is neither domiciled nor has a place of residence in the United Kingdom shall not be deemed to be employed within the meaning of this Part of this Act, but the employer shall be liable to pay the same contributions in respect of him as would otherwise have been payable by him as employer's contributions, except in cases where the ship is engaged in regular trade on foreign stations:
    (4) The Board of Trade shall, as soon as may be after the passing of this Act, cause a society to be formed, to be called the Seamen's National Insurance Society of which any masters, seamen, and apprentices to the sea service and the sea fishing service who are employed within the meaning of this Part of this Act shall be entitled to become members, but nothing in this Section shall prevent any such person joining another approved society instead of the society so formed:
    (5) The affairs of the Seamen's National Insurance Society shall be managed by a committee constituted in accordance with a scheme to be prepared by the Board of Trade with the approval of the Insurance Commissioners, comprising representatives of the Board of Trade, of ship-owners, and of members of the society in equal proportions, and the society shall, notwithstanding anything
    732
    in this Part of this Act, become an approved society:
    (6) All contributions paid by employers in respect of masters, seamen, or apprentices who are neither domiciled nor have a place of residence in the United Kingdom, and consequently deemed not to be employed within the meaning of this Part of this Act, shall be credited to the Seamen's National Insurance Society:
    (7) In addition to medical, sanatorium, sickness, disablement, and maternity benefits, members of the Seamen's National Insurance Society shall be entitled to such other benefits as may be provided under a scheme to be prepared by the committee of management, with the approval of the Board of Trade and the Insurance Commissioners, and such other benefits shall include pensions for masters and seamen with long sea service, and the scheme may provide for preference being given to masters and seamen who have served in foreign-going ships or ships engaged in foreign trade over those who have served in the coasting and home-trade ships, and such preference may be proportionate to the length of time spent in the first-mentioned service: Provided that, in the case of the transfer of a member of the society to another approved society, the transfer value payable in respect of him shall be calculated with reference to the liabilities of the society for benefits other than such pensions as aforesaid:
    (8) The rules of the Seamen's National Insurance Society shall provide for allowing a member who leaves the sea service and is unable to obtain admission to another approved society on account of the state of his health to continue a member of the Seamen's National Insurance Society for the purposes of this Part of this Act, and the rules of that society may provide that a member of the society who has fulfilled the conditions entitling him to such pension as aforesaid shall not be deprived of his right to the pension by reason only that he has ceased to be a member of the society at the time when the pension first becomes payable or ceases so to be at any subsequent time:

    733
    (9) Where a master, seaman, or apprentice is at the commencement of this Act a member of a society which becomes an approved society he may, if that society and the Seamen's National Insurance Society so agree, continue to be a member of the first-mentioned society for the purposes of benefits under this Part of this Act other than pension, and becomes a member of the last-mentioned society for the purposes of pension only, and in such case the balance of the contributions payable in respect of him (after deducting the sums to be retained by the Insurance Commissioners towards discharging their liabilities in respect of reserve values) shall be divided between the two societies in such proportion as they may agree:
    (10) Expressions in this section have the same meaning as in the Merchant Shipping Acts, 1894 to 1907, and the expression "ship engaged in regular trade on foreign stations" means a ship engaged regularly in trade between ports outside the British Islands when trading between such ports, but for the purposes of this provision a ship shall not be deemed not to be engaged in such a trade by reason only that she puts into a port in the United Kingdom for the purpose of survey or repair.
    Amendments made: In Sub-section (2) leave out the letter "a" ["on a foreign going ship"].
    Leave out the words "ship or a ship" and insert the words "ships or ships."
    In paragraph (a) leave out the word "payable" ["contributions payable"] and insert instead the word "paid."
    In Sub-section (a) leave out the word "becomes" ["becomes a member"] and insert instead thereof the word "become."
    At end of Sub-section (10) add,
    (11) The provisions of this Part of this Act affecting the employed rate and the rates of contributions of employers and contributors in Ireland, and depriving insured persons in Ireland of medical benefit, shall not apply to any such master, seaman, or apprentice unless he has a permanent place of residence in Ireland and is not a member of the Seamen's National Insurance Society; and, in
    734
    the case of a master, seaman, or apprentice serving on a foreign-going chip or a ship engaged in foreign trade to whom such provisions do apply the amount by which the employed rate and the employer's contributions are to be reduced shall be one halfpenny a week.
    (11) Members of the Seamen's National Insurance Society shall for the purposes of this Part of this Act be deemed to reside in England, and the medical benefit and sanatorium benefit of such members shall be administered by the society instead of by the local health committee, and the provisions of this Part of this Act relating to the administration of those benefits shall apply accordingly subject to such modifications as may be prescribed.—[Mr. Lloyd George.]

    CLAUSE 46.—(Provisions as to Men over Sixty-five at Commencement of Act.)
    (1) If any person who is over the age of sixty-five and under the age of seventy at the commencement of this Act is employed within the meaning of this Part of this Act, the like contributions shall, until he reaches the age of seventy, be payable by his employer in respect of him as in the case of employed contributors, and the provisions of this Part of this Act relating to the payments of contributions and the recovery thereof shall apply accordingly.
    (2) For every weekly contribution made by or in respect of such a man there shall be contributed out of moneys provided by Parliament the sum of two pence.
    (3) If such a person becomes a member of an approved society for the purposes of this Section all contributions payable in respect of him under this Section (including contributions out of moneys provided by Parliament) shall be credited to the society, and he shall become entitled to such benefits as the society may determine, but no reserve value shall be credited to the society in respect of him and no part of the contributions payable in respect of him shall be retained by the Insurance Commissioners towards the discharge of their liabilities in respect of reserve values.
    (4) If such a person does not become a member of an approved society as aforesaid he shall become a deposit contributor, and accordingly all contributions payable in respect of him (including contributions out of moneys provided by Parliament) shall be carried to his credit in the Post

    735
    Office fund, but the benefits to which he becomes entitled shall be such as may be determined by the local health committee.
    (5) No part of the cost of benefits under this Section shall be payable out of moneys provided by Parliament.
    Amendments made: In Sub-section (1), leave out the word "over" ["if any person who is over sixty-five"], and insert the word "of."
    After the words "sixty-five," insert the word "upwards."
    Leave out the word "reaches" and insert instead thereof the word "attains."
    In Sub-section (2), leave out the word "man" ["in respect of such a man"], and insert instead thereof the word "person."—[Mr. Lloyd George.]

    CLAUSE 47.—(Special Provisions as to Seasonal Trades.)
    Where it is proved to the satisfaction of the Insurance Commissioners that a trade or business carried on by any employers is of a seasonal nature and subject to periodical fluctuation, and those employers systematically employ persons throughout the year and work short time during the season when the trade or business is depressed, the Insurance Commissioners may make special order decreasing, as respects such persons, the employed rate of the contributions payable by the employers and contributors, to such extent and for such period in the year as may be specified in the order, and increasing such rate of contributions to a corresponding extent and for a corresponding period during the remainder of the year, and the order may contain such incidental, supplemental, and consequential provisions as may appear necessary for adapting the other provision of this Part of this Act to cases under this Section.
    Amendments made: After the word "make" ["the Insurance Commissioners may make special order"], insert the word "a."
    Leave out the word "decreasing," ["special order decreasing"], and insert instead thereof the word "reducing."
    Leave out the word "of" ["rate of the contribution"], and insert instead thereof the word "and."
    Leave out the word "of" ["such rate of contribution"], and insert the word "and."—[Mr. Lloyd George.]

    CLAUSE 48.—(Special Provisions as to Inmates of Charitable Homes, etc.)
    (1) Where the managers of any institution carried on for charitable or reformatory purposes prove that the persons who are inmates of and supported by the institution receive benefits and medical attendance when sick, the Insurance Commissioners may grant a certificate of exemption to those managers, and where such a certificate of exemption is granted any such inmates who are employed by the managers of the institution shall not in respect of such employment be deemed to be employed within the meaning of this Part of this Act:
    Provided that it shall be a condition of such exemption that the managers shall be liable to pay in respect of any such inmate who, having been an inmate of the institution for more than six months, leaves the institution, the following sums:—

    (a) In the case of a person who at the time of entering the institution below the age of sixteen, such capital sum as will be sufficient to secure him benefits under this Part of this Act at the full rate;

    (b) In the case of a person who was at the time of entering the institution of the age of sixteen or upwards, and who was at that time an insured person, and a member of an approved society, a sum equal to the value of the contributions which, apart from this Section, would have been payable in respect of him during the time he was in the institution, calculated in the prescribed manner.

    (2) Every such inmate as aforesaid shall, if he was an insured person, before entering the institution, be suspended from benefits whilst he is such an inmate, and if he was at such time a member of an approved society and has been an inmate of the institution for a period exceeding six months the time during which he is in the institution shall be disregarded for the purpose of reckoning arrears.
    Amendments made: In Sub-section (1), paragraph (a), after the word "who" ["of a person who at the time of"], insert the word "was."
    In paragraph (b), after the word "value," insert the words "calculated in the prescribed manner."
    In paragraph (b), leave out the words "calculated in the prescribed manner."—[Mr. Lloyd George.]

    CLAUSE 49.—(Application to other Persons in the Service of the Crown.)
    This Part of this Act shall apply to persons employed by or under the Crown, other than those with respect to whom special provision is made by this Part of this Act, in like manner as if the employer were a private person:
    Provided that in the case of a person employed in the private service of the Crown, the head of the department of the Royal Household in which he is employed shall be deemed to be his employer.
    Amendment made: At end, insert,
    (2) The provisions of this Act relating to reduced insurance in cases where the employer is liable to pay wages during sickness shall extend in respect of persons employed by or under the Crown to cases where two-thirds only of the full remuneration are payable during periods or parts of periods of disease or disablement if such remuneration is so payable for not less than three months in any year, and those provisions shall apply accordingly as if two-thirds of the full remuneration were substituted for the full remuneration and as if three months were substituted for six weeks as the maximum amount of time during any year such remuneration is payable.—[Mr. Lloyd George.]
    Financial Provisions.

    CLAUSE 50.—(National Health Insurance Fund.)
    (1) All sums received in respect of contributions under this Part of this Act and all sums paid out of moneys provided by Parliament under this Part of this Act in respect of the benefits thereunder and the expenses of administration of such benefits shall be paid into a fund, to be called the National Health Insurance Fund, under the control and management of the Insurance Commissioners, and the sums required to meet expenditure properly incurred by approved societies and local health committees for the purposes of the benefits administered by them and the administration of such benefits shall be paid out of that fund.
    (2) The sums payable to the said fund out of moneys provided by Parliament shall be paid in such manner and at such times as the Treasury may determine.
    (3) The Insurance Commissioners shall ascertain periodically what sums standing in the Insurance Fund to the credit of the several societies and of the Post Office
    738
    fund and of the Navy and Army Insurance Fund are available for investment, and the amount so ascertained shall, so far as not required under the provisions of this Part of this Act to be paid over to societies for investment, or to be retained for investment on their behalf, or for the discharge of liabilities of societies, be carried to a separate account, called the Investment Account, and shall be paid over to the National Debt Commissioners and by them invested in accordance with regulations made by the Treasury in any securities which are for the time being authorised by Parliament as investments for Savings Banks funds, but those Commissioners shall in making the investment give preference to stock or bonds issued under the provisions of the Acts relating to borrowing for raising capital for the purposes of the local loans fund where the purposes for which such capital is required is the making of advances for the purposes of the Housing of the Working Classes Acts, 1890 to 1909.
    (4) There shall be credited to the Post Office fund and to the Navy and Army Insurance Fund interest at the prescribed rate per annum on the sums from time to time standing to the credit of those funds in the Investment Account.
    (5) The accounts of the National Health Insurance Fund shall be audited in such manner as the Treasury may direct.
    (6) The National Debt Commissioners shall present to Parliament annually an account of the securities in which moneys forming part of the said fund are for the time being invested.
    Amendments made: In Sub-section (3), after the word "the" ["in the insurance fund"], insert the words "natural health."
    At end of Sub-section (3), insert the words, Provided that nothing in this provision shall prevent the Insurance Commissioners paying over to the National Debt Commissioners for temporary investment, pending the ascertainment of the amount available for investment as aforesaid, any sums in the National Health Insurance Fund not required to meet current liabilities.—[Mr. Lloyd George.]

    CLAUSE 51.—(Reserve Values.)
    (1) The Insurance Commissioners shall cause tables to be prepared showing, in cases in which such provision is necessary the capital sums (in this Part of the Act referred to as "reserve values" which it

    739
    is necessary to provide in respect of members entering into insurance at ages above the age of sixteen to meet the estimated loss (if any) arising through the acceptance of such persons as members upon the terms and conditions as regards contributions and benefits prescribed by this Act.
    (2) On a person above the age of sixteen joining an approved society there shall be credited to the society the reserve value (if any) appropriate to such persons in accordance with such tables.
    The sums so credited to a society in respect of reserve values shall carry interest at the rate of three per centum per annum.
    (3) Out of each weekly contribution paid by or in respect of an insured person who is a member of an approved society in the preceding three months there shall be retained by the Insurance Commissioners the sum of one penny and five-ninths (or in the case of women one penny halfpenny), and the amounts so retained shall, together with any other moneys available for the purpose, be applied in manner provided by this Act towards discharging the liabilities of the Insurance Commissioners to approved societies in respect of the reserve values created by this Section.
    (4) The Insurance Commissioners shall periodically apportion amongst the several societies the sums retained by them, and the sums, if any, otherwise available for the discharge of such liabilities as aforesaid in proportion to the amount of reserve values for the time being credited to the several societies, and shall credit to each society the amount so apportioned, and any balance of the sums so credited to a society, after providing for interest on the reserve values for the time being credited to the society, shall be written off the amount of the reserve values so credited.
    Amendments made: In Sub-section (1) leave out the word "above" ["at ages above the age of sixteen"], and insert instead thereof the word "over."
    Leave out the word "acceptance" ["through the acceptance of such persons"], and insert the words "by an approved society."
    In Sub-section (2), leave out the word "above" ["on a person above the age"], and insert instead thereof the word "over."
    After the word "society" ["as approved society"], insert the words, "for the purpose of this Part of this Act."
    Leave out the word "persons," and insert instead thereof the word "person."
    In Sub-section (3), after the word "society" ["member of an approved society"], insert the words, "other than a voluntary contributor who entered into insurance within six months after the commencement of this Act and at the date of that entry was of the age of forty-five years or upwards."
    Leave out the words "in the preceding three months."
    In Sub-section (4), after the word "societies" ["amongst the several societies"], insert the words, "including the Army and Navy Insurance Fund."
    At end of Sub-section (4) add,
    (5) If any person is convicted of the offence of knowingly making any false statement as to his age in any declaration made for the purpose of obtaining a reserve value to be credited to an approved society in respect of him, the reserve value shall be cancelled, and the member of the society in respect of whom it was credited shall be treated as if he had entered into insurance after the expiration of one year from the commencement of this Act.—[Mr. Lloyd George.]
    Insurance Commissioners: Advisory Committee.

    CLAUSE 52.—(Constitution of Insurance Commissioners, Appointment of Inspectors, etc.)
    (1) As soon as may be after the passing of this Act there shall be constituted for the purposes of this Part of this Act Commissioners (to be called the Insurance Commissioners), with a central office in London, and with such branch offices as the Treasury may think fit, and the Commissioners shall be appointed by the Treasury, and of the Commissioners so appointed one at least shall be a duly qualified medical practitioner who has had personal experience of general practice.
    (2) The Insurance Commissioners may appoint such officers, inspectors, referees, and servants, for the purposes of this Part of this Act as the Commissioners, subject to the approval of the Treasury as to number, may determine, and there shall be paid out of moneys provided by Parliament to the Commissioners and to such officers, inspectors, referees, and servants, such salaries or remuneration as the Treasury may determine; and any ex-

    741
    penses incurred by the Treasury or the Commissioners in carrying this Part of this Act into effect, to such extent as the Treasury may sanction, shall be defrayed out of moneys provided by Parliament.
    (3) The Insurance Commissioners may empower any such inspector to exercise in respect of any approved society or any branch of an approved society all or any of the powers given by Section seventy-six of the Friendly Societies Act, 1896, to an inspector appointed thereunder:
    Provided, that any complaint or report as to any such branch as aforesaid made by an inspector under this Sub-section shall be communicated to the central body or other central authority of the society.
    At end of Sub-section (1), insert,
    (2) The Insurance Commissioners may sue and be sued, and may, for all purposes be described by that name, and shall have an official seal which shall be officially and judicially noticed, and such seal shall be authenticated by any Commissioner or the secretary to the Commissioners, or some person authorised by the Commissioners to act on behalf of the secretary.
    In Sub-section (2), after the word "Treasury" ["expenses incurred by the Treasury or the Commissioners"], insert the words "(including the remuneration of valuers and auditors appointed by the Treasury)."
    At end of Sub-section (2), add,
    (3) Every document purporting to be an order or other instrument issued by the Insurance Commissioners and to be sealed with the seal of the Commissioners authenticated in manner provided by this Section, or to be signed by the secretary to the Commissioners or any person authorised by the Commissioners to act on behalf of the secretary, shall be received in evidence and be deemed to be such order or instrument without further proof, unless the contrary is shown.—[Mr. Lloyd George.]

    CLAUSE 53.—(Transactions between the Insurance Commissioners and Societies.)
    (1) The Insurance Commissioners shall, subject to the approval of the Treasury, make regulations with respect to crediting and debiting to the several societies sums received and paid by the Insurance Commissioners on behalf of or to societies and as to the payments to be made by and to
    742
    the Commissioners to and by societies, and those regulations shall, amongst other things—

    (a) provide for crediting to each society the contributions paid by or in respect of the members of the society after deducting the amounts retained thereout for discharging the liabilities of the Insurance Commissioners in respect of reserve values;

    (b) require the Insurance Commissioners, on carrying any sum to the credit of an approved society in the investment account, to pay over to the society for investment, or, at the request of the society, to retain for investment on behalf of the society, four-sevenths, or, so far as the sums are attributable to women, one-half, of the amount so credited to the society;

    (c) provide for crediting to each society interest at the prescribed rate per annum on the sums for the time being standing to the credit of the society in the investment account;

    (d) provide for the discharge of debit balances in such manner as the Insurance Commissioners determine, either by the reduction of the reserve values credited to the society or out of the proceeds of the realisation of securities held by the society or by the Commissioners on behalf of the society, and out of the sums standing to the credit of the society in the investment account proportionately:

    Provided that, in the case of any society which gives notice to that effect to the Insurance Commissioners, no part of the sums carried to credit of the society in the investment account shall be paid over to the society or retained by the Commissioners for investment on its behalf, but the whole amount shall remain to the credit of the society in the investment account, and in such case the regulations made under the foregoing provisions shall apply to the society subject to the prescribed modifications.
    (2) Every approved society shall invest any sums paid to the society for investment, and shall for the purpose have power to invest in any securities in which trustees are for the time being by law empowered to invest trust funds, or in any other securities for the time being approved by the Insurance Commissioners.
    (3) Where, at the request of a society, the Insurance Commissioners instead of paying over any sum to the society retain such sum for investment on behalf of the society, they shall invest such sum in accordance with the directions of the society in any securities in which the society might have invested it had it been paid over to the society, and shall from time to time vary such investments in accordance with the like directions, and shall pay over to the society all sums received by way of interest or dividend on the investments held by them on behalf of the society.
    (4) Every approved society shall apply the sums received by way of interest or dividend on investments held by the society or by the Insurance Commissioners on behalf of the society towards the cost of the benefits under this Part of this Act of the members of the society and the cost of the administration of those benefits, or otherwise, as the Insurance Commissioners may prescribe.
    Amendment made: In Sub-section (2), after the word "funds" ["to invest trust funds or"], insert the words "or in any stocks, mortgages, or other securities issued by any local authority within the meaning of The Local Loans Act, 1875, and charged on any rates levied by or on the order or precept of such authority."—[Mr. Lloyd George.]
    Local Health Committees.

    CLAUSE 55.—(Appointment of Local Health Committees.)
    (1) A local health committee shall be constituted for every county and county borough.
    (2) Such number of the members of the committee as the Insurance Commissioners, having regard to the circumstances of each case, determine, but in no case less than twenty-four or more than forty-eight, shall be appointed in such manner as may be prescribed by regulations of the Insurance Commissioners so as to secure representation of the insured persons resident in the county or county borough who are members of approved societies, and who are deposit contributors in proportion, as nearly as may be, to their respective numbers; and the regulations so made shall provide for conferring on the approved societies which have members resident in the county or county borough the power of appointing the representatives of such
    744
    members, and, where an association of the deposit contributors resident in the county or county borough has been formed under such regulations as aforesaid for conferring on such association the power of appointing the representatives of the deposit contributors.
    (3) Of the remaining members of the committee, who shall not exceed two-thirds of the number of members appointed in manner aforesaid, one-half shall be appointed by the council of the county or county borough, two shall be elected in manner provided by regulations made by the Insurance Commissioners, either by any association of duly qualified medical practitioners resident in the county or county borough which may have been formed for that purpose under such regulations, or, if no such association has been formed, by such practitioners, and the others shall be appointed by the Insurance Commissioners:
    Provided that the members appointed by the council of the county or county borough shall consist wholly or in part of members of the local sanitary authorities and two at least shall be women, and of the members appointed by the Insurance Commissioners one at least shall be a duly qualified medical practitioner and two at least shall be women.
    (4) The Insurance Commissioners may, where any part of the cost of medical benefit or sanatorium benefit is defrayed by the council of the county or county borough, increase the representation of the council and make a corresponding diminution in the representation of the insured persons.
    (5) The Insurance Commissioners may make regulations as to the appointment, quorum, term of office, and proceedings generally, of the committee, and the employment of officers and the provision of offices by the committee, including the use by the committee, with or without payment, of any offices of a local authority, but subject to the consent of such authority, and any such regulations may provide for the appointment of auxiliary committees, and for the powers and duties of any such auxiliary committee:
    Provided that the regulations so made shall require the local health committee of every county (except in cases where, owing to special circumstances, the Commissioners consider it unnecessary) within six months after the commencement of this Act to prepare and submit for approval to the Commissioners a scheme for

    745
    the appointment of an auxiliary committee for the county and prescribing the area to be assigned to each such committee, and in particular the scheme shall provide for the appointment of an auxiliary committee for each borough (including the City of London and a metropolitan borough) within the county having a population of not less than ten thousand, and for each urban district within the county with a population of twenty thousand, unless the local health committee consider it expedient in the case of any such borough or urban district that there should not be a separate auxiliary committee for the borough or urban district, or that any adjoining areas should be grouped with such borough or urban district for the purpose of the appointment of an auxiliary committee.
    (6) Any local health committee may, and shall if so required by the Insurance Commissioners, combine with any one or more other local health committees for all or any of the purposes of this Part of this Act, and where they so combine the provisions of this Part of this Act shall apply with such necessary adaptations as may be prescribed.
    Amendments made: In Sub-section (2), at the beginning insert the words "Every such committee shall consist of."
    Leave out the word "the" ["number of the members."]
    Leave out the words "of the committee" ["numbers of the committee"].
    Leave out the words "twenty-four," and insert instead thereof the word "forty."
    Leave out the words "forty-eight," and insert instead thereof the words "eighty of whom—
    (a) three-fifths."
    Leave out the words "and the regulations so made."
    In Sub-section (3), leave out the word "two" ["two shall be elected"], and insert instead thereof "(c) two members."
    Leave out the words "and the others," and insert instead thereof,
    (d) one member or, if the total number of the committee is sixty or upwards, two members, or if the total number of the committee is eighty, three members, shall be duly qualified medical practitioners appointed by council of the county or county borough;
    (e) the remaining members.
    Leave out the words "the members appointed by the council of the county or county borough shall consist wholly or in part of the members of the local sanitary authorities and," and insert instead thereof—

    (i) The regulations with respect to the appointment of members to represent insured persons shall provide for conferring on the approved societies which have members resident in the county or county borough the power of appointing the representatives of such members, and, where an association of the deposit contributors resident in the county or county borough has been formed under such regulations as aforesaid, for conferring on such association the power of appointing the representatives of the deposit contributors;

    (ii) Of the members appointed by the council of the county or county borough.

    In Sub-section (3), leave out the word "office" ["term of office"], and insert instead thereof the words "and rotation of members."
    After the word "generally" ["and proceedings generally of the Committee"], and insert instead thereof the words "including the appointment of sub-committees consisting wholly or partly of members of the committee."
    Leave out the word "appointment" ["for the appointment of"], and insert instead thereof the word "constitution."
    Leave out the word "auxiliary" and insert instead thereof the word "district."
    Leave out the words "the powers and duties of any such auxiliary committee," and insert instead thereof the words, "apportioning amongst the several district committees any of the powers and duties of the local health committee and regulating the relations of district committees to the local health committee and to one another."
    After the word "prepare" ["to prepare and submit"], insert the words "after consultation with the county council."
    Leave out the words "an auxiliary committee," and insert instead thereof the words "district committees."
    Leave out the word "unless" ["unless the local health committee"], and insert instead thereof the words "but if."
    After the word "Committee," insert "or on appeal the Insurance Commissioners."
    Leave out the words "that there should not be a separate auxiliary committee for the borough or urban district or that."
    Leave out the word "auxiliary," and insert instead thereof the word "district."
    Leave out the word "should," and insert instead thereof the word "may."
    Leave out the word "auxiliary," and insert instead thereof the word "district."—[Mr. Lloyd George.]

    CLAUSE 56.—(Powers and Duties of Local Health Committees.)
    (1) The local health committee of a county or county borough shall, in addition to the other powers and duties imposed or conferred on it by this Part of this Act, have the following powers and duties:—

    (1) It shall make such reports as to the health of insured persons within the county or county borough as the Insurance Commissioners, after consultation with the Local Government Board, may prescribe, and shall furnish to them such statistical and other returns as they may require, and may make to them such other reports on the health of such persons and the conditions affecting the same, and may make such suggestions with regard thereto as it may think fit, and the Insurance Commissioners shall forward to the councils of the counties, boroughs (including metropolitan boroughs), and urban and rural districts, which appear to them to be affected by or interested in any such reports, returns, or suggestions, copies of such reports, returns, or suggestions, and the reports and returns so made shall include such reports and returns as will enable an analysis and classification to be made of the persons who are deposit contributors:

    (2) It shall make such provision for the giving of lectures and the publication of information on questions relating to health as it thinks necessary or desirable:

    748

    (3) It shall keep proper books and accounts in the prescribed form, and shall, when required, submit such accounts to audit by auditors appointed by the Treasury.

    (2) For the purpose of assisting local health committees in the exercise and performance of their powers and duties under this Part of this Act, and with a view to promoting co-operation between such committees and the councils of counties, county boroughs, and county districts, any medical officer of health may, at the request of a local health committee and with the consent of the council by whom he is appointed, attend meetings of this committee and give such advice and assistance as is in his power.
    Amendments made: In Sub-section (1), paragraph (1), leave out the words "(including metropolitan boroughs)."
    In Sub-section (2), leave out the word "county" ["county boroughs"].
    Leave out the word "county" ["county districts"], and insert instead thereof the words "urban and rural."
    Leave out the word "this" ["this Committee"], and insert instead thereof the word "the."
    At the end of Sub-section (2), add,
    (3) For the purposes of this Section the council of a borough includes the mayor, aldermen, and commons of the City of London in common council assembled, and the council of a metropolitan borough.—[Mr. Lloyd George.]

    CLAUSE 57.—(Income.)
    (1) All sums available for sanatorium benefit in a county or county borough, and all sums payable in respect of deposit contributors so resident for the purposes of medical benefit and administrative expenses in any year, shall be paid or credited to the local health committee at the commencement of that year.
    (2) There shall also be paid to the local health committee in every year by each approved society having members who are insured persons resident in the county or county borough, in respect of each such member, the sum of one penny towards the administrative expenses of the committee:
    Provided that if the special circumstances of any county are such that the

    749
    Insurance Commissioners consider that the travelling expenses of the members of the committee should be repaid to them by the committee, the Insurance Commissioners may authorise such repayment, and in such case may increase the said sum of one penny to such sum, not exceeding twopence, as they may determine.
    (3) It shall be lawful for any local authority, out of any fund or rate out of which the expenses of the authority are payable, to subscribe such sums as it may think fit towards the general purposes of the local health committee.
    Amendments made: In Sub-section (1), after the word "of" ["of deposit contributors"], insert the words "the members of approved societies and."
    Leave out the word "so" ["so resident for"].
    After the word "resident" insert the words "in the county or county borough."—[Mr. Lloyd George.]

    CLAUSE 58.—(Local Medical Committee.)
    Where a local medical committee has been formed for any county or county borough, and the Insurance Commissioners are satisfied that such committee is representative of the duly qualified medical practitioners resident in the county or county borough they shall recognise such committee, and where a local medical committee has been so recognised it shall, subject to regulations made by the Insurance Commissioners, be consulted by the local health committee on all general questions affecting the administration of medical benefit, including the arrangements made with medical practitioners giving attendance and treatment to insured persons, and shall perform such other duties, and shall exercise such powers as may be determined by the Insurance Commissioners.
    Amendments made: After the word "borough" ["or county borough and the"], insert the words "or for any area for which a district committee has been formed."
    After the word "borough" ["in the comity or county borough"], insert the words "or such and as aforesaid."
    After the word "committee" ["the local health committee"] insert the words "or district committee, as the case may-be."—[Mr. Lloyd George.]
    Excessive Sickness.

    CLAUSE 59.—(Power to Approved Societies and Local Health Committees to Demand Inquiries into Causes of Excessive Sickness, etc.)
    (1) Where it is alleged by the Insurance Commissioners or by any approved society or local health committee that the sickness which has taken place among any insured persons, being, in the case where the allegation is made by a society or committee, persons for the administration of whose sickness and disablement benefits the society or committee is responsible, is excessive, and that such excess is due to the conditions or nature of employment of such persons, or to bad housing or insanitary conditions in any locality, or to a defective or contaminated water supply, or to the neglect on the part of any person or authority to observe or enforce the provisions of any Act relating to the health of workers in factories, workshops, mines, quarries, or other industries, or relating to public health, or the housing of the working classes, or any regulations made under any such Act, or to observe or enforce any public health precautions, the Commissioners or the society or committee making such allegation may send to the person or authority alleged to be in default a claim for the payment of the amount of any extra expenditure alleged to have been incurred by reason of such cause as aforesaid, and if the Commissioners, society, or committee and such person or authority fail to arrive at any agreement on the subject may apply to the Secretary of State or the Local Government Board, as the case may require, for an inquiry, and thereupon the Secretary of State or Local Government Board may appoint a competent person to hold an inquiry.
    (2) If upon such inquiry being held it is proved to the satisfaction of the person holding the inquiry that the amount of such sickness has—

    (i.) during a period of not less than three years before the date of the inquiry; or

    (ii.) if there has been an outbreak of any epidemic, endemic or infectious disease, during any less period;

    been in excess of the average expectation of sickness by more than 10 per cent., and that such excess was in whole or in part due to any such cause as aforesaid, the amount of any extra expenditure found by the person holding the inquiry to have been incurred under this Part of this Act

    751
    by any societies or committees where the allegation is made by the Insurance Commissioners, or, if the allegation is made by a society or committee, by the society or committee in question, by reason of such cause shall be ordered by him to be made good in accordance with the following provisions:—

    (a) Where the excess or such part thereof as aforesaid is due to the conditions or nature of the employment or to any neglect on the part of any employer to observe or enforce any such Act or regulation as aforesaid, it shall be made good by the employer:

    (b) Where such excess or such part thereof as aforesaid is due to bad housing or insanitary conditions in the locality, or to any neglect on the part of any local authority to observe or enforce any such Act or regulation as aforesaid, it shall be made good by such local authority as appears to the person holding the inquiry to have been in default, or if due to the insanitary condition of any particular premises shall be made good by the owner or occupier of the premises who is proved to the satisfaction of the person holding the inquiry to be responsible:

    (c) Where the excess or such part thereof as aforesaid is due to an insufficient or contaminated water supply, it shall be made good by the local authority or company by which the water is supplied, or which having imposed upon it the duty of affording a water supply has refused or neglected to do so, unless the local authority or company prove that such insufficiency or contamination was not due to any default on the part of the authority or company, but arose from circumstances over which it had no control.

    (3) Where any such inquiry as aforesaid is held in respect of bad housing or insanitary conditions in any locality, it shall be lawful for the local authority to serve notice upon the owner or occupier of any premises which are the subject-matter of the inquiry, and where it is proved that such a notice has been served and that any such extra expense as aforesaid, or any part thereof, has been caused by the act or default of such owner or occupier, the person holding the inquiry may order the owner or occupier to repay to the local
    752
    authority the amount of the extra expenditure or part thereof which has been so caused.
    (4) For the purpose of this Section the average expectation of sickness shall be calculated in accordance with the tables prepared by the Insurance Commissioners for the purpose of valuations under this Part of this Act, but any excessive sickness attributable to any disease or disablement which is or is due to any disease or injury in respect of which damages or compensation are payable under the Employers' Liability Act, 1880, or the Workmen's Compensation Act, 1906, or at common law, shall not be taken into account.
    (5) The Insurance Commissioners shall make regulations as to the procedure on inquiries under this Section, and a person holding an inquiry under this Section shall have all such powers as an inspector of the Local Government Board has for the purposes of an inquiry under the Public Health Acts, and shall have power to order how and by what parties costs, including such expenses as the Secretary of State or Local Government Board may certify to have been incurred by them, are to be paid, and an order made by such person under this Section may by leave of the High Court be enforced in the same manner as a judgment or order of the Court to the same effect:
    Provided that a society or committee shall not be ordered to pay the costs of the other party to the inquiry if the person holding the inquiry certifies that the demand for an inquiry was reasonable under the circumstances, and when he so certifies the Treasury may repay to the society or committee the whole or any part of the costs incurred by it.
    (6) Without prejudice to any other method of recovery, any sum ordered under this Section to be paid by a local authority may, in accordance with the regulations of the Local Government Board with the approval of the Treasury, be paid out of the Local Taxation Account and deducted from any sums payable either directly or indirectly out of that account to the local authority.
    (7) For the purposes of this Section any expenditure on any benefit administered by a local health committee shall be deemed to be expenditure of that committee, but any sums ordered to be paid to any such committee under this Section to meet extra expenditure on sickness

    753
    benefit or disablement benefit shall be dealt with for the benefit of deposit contributors in accordance with regulations made by the Insurance Commissioners.
    (8) Where under this Section any sum is ordered to be paid to the Insurance Com missioners, the Insurance Commissioners shall apply the same in discharge of any expenses incurred by the Commisioners in connection with the inquiry, and shall distribute the balance amongst the societies and committees which appear to the Commissioners to have incurred extra expense on account of the excessive sick ness in such proportion, as the Commissioners think just.
    Amendments made: In Sub-section (1) leave out the words "a defective" ["or to a defective or contaminated water supply"], and insert instead thereof the words "an insufficient."
    In Sub-section (2), paragraph (b), after the word "regulation" ["regulation as aforesaid"], insert the words "or such precautions."
    After the word "good" ["be made good by the owner"], insert the words "either by such authority or."
    After the word "owner," insert the word" lessee."
    In paragraph (c), leave out the word "or" ["local authority or company"].
    After the word "company," insert the words "or person."
    Leave out the word "or" ["authority or company "].
    After the word "company," insert the words "or person."
    In Sub-section (3), after the word "owner" ["notice upon the owner"], insert the word "lessee."
    After the word "owner" ["the owner or occupier"], insert the word "lessee."
    In Sub-section (4) leave out the words "is or" ["which or is due"].
    In Sub-section (8), leave out the words "ordered to be."
    Leave out the words "in connection with the inquiry," and insert instead thereof the words "under this Section."
    Leave out the word "proportion" and insert instead thereof the word "proportions."
    At the end of Sub-section (8) add,
    (9) Where an association of deposit contributors resident in any county or county borough has been formed
    754
    under regulations made by the Insurance Commissioners, the local health committee for the county or county borough shall, if so required by the association, take proceedings under this Section on behalf and at the expense of the association.—[Mr. Lloyd George.]
    Supplementary Provisions.

    CLAUSE 60.—(Erection of Sanatoria, etc.)
    (1) If under any other Act of the present session any sum is made available for the purposes of the provision of sanatoria and other institutions for the treatment of tuberculosis or such other diseases as the Local Government Board with the approval of the Treasury may appoint, such sum shall be distributed by the Local Government Board with the consent of the Treasury in making grants for those purposes.
    (2) If any such grant is made to a county council, the Local Government Board may authorise the county council to provide any such institution, and where so authorised the county council shall have power to erect such buildings and to manage and maintain the institution and for that purpose to enter into agreements and make arrangements with local health committees and other authorities and persons, and to do all such things as may be necessary for the purposes aforesaid, any any expenses of the county council, so far as not defrayed out of the grant shall be defrayed out of the county fund as expenses for general county purposes, or if the order of the Local Government Board so directs as expenses for special county purposes charged on such part of the county as may be provided by the order.
    (3) For the purpose of facilitating co-operation amongst county councils, county borough councils, and other local authorities for the provision of such sanatoria and other institutions as aforesaid, the Local Government Board may by order make such provisions as appear to them necessary or expedient by the constitution of joint committees, joint boards, or otherwise, for the joint exercise by such councils and authorities of their powers in relation thereto, and any such order may provide how, in what proportions, and out of what funds or rates the expenses of providing such institutions, so far as they are not defrayed out of grants under this Section, are to be defrayed, and may contain such consequential, incidental, and supplemental provisions as may appear

    755
    necessary for the purposes of the order, and an order so made shall be binding and conclusive in respect of the matters to which it relates.
    (4) A local health committee may, with the consent of the Insurance Commissioners, enter into agreements with any person or authority that, in consideration of such person or authority providing treatment in a sanatorium or other institution or otherwise for persons recommended by the committee for sanatorium benefit, the committee will contribute out of the funds available for sanatorium benefit towards the maintenance of the institution or provision of such treatment, such annual or other payment, and, subject to such conditions and for such period as may be agreed, and any such agreement shall be binding on the committee and their successors, and any sums payable by the committee thereunder may be paid by the Insurance Commissioners and deducted from the sums payable to the
    committee for the purposes of sanatorium benefit.
    Amendments made: In Sub-section (1), after the word "Treasury" ["with the approval of the Treasury may"], insert the words "after consultation with the Insurance Commissioners."
    At end of Sub-section (1) add the words "and the Treasury before giving their consent shall consult with the Insurance Commissioners."
    Amendment proposed, at the end of Subsection (1), after the words last inserted, add,
    "Provided that such sum shall be apportioned between England, Wales, Scotland, and Ireland in proportion to their respective populations ascertained in accordance with the returns of the Census taken in the year nineteen hundred and eleven."
    Question put.
    The House divided: Ayes, 120; Noes, 47.
    Amendments made: In Sub-section (3), after the word "authorities" ["and other local authorities"], insert the words "(not being Poor Law authorities)."
    In Sub-section (4), after the word "authority" ["with any person or authority that"], insert the words "(other than a Poor Law authority)."—[Mr. Lloyd George.]

    CLAUSE 77.—(Joint Committee of Commissioners.)
    (1) There shall be constituted as soon as may be after the passing of this Act, in accordance with regulations to be made by the Treasury, a joint committee of the several bodies of Commissioners appointed for the purposes of this Part of this Act, consisting of such members of each such body selected in such manner as may be provided by the regulations and of a chairman to be appointed by the Treasury.
    (2) The joint committee may make such financial adjustments as may be necessary between the various funds, and shall exercise and perform such powers and duties of the several Commissioners under this Part of this Act as may be provided by such regulations.
    (3) Regulations made by the Treasury under this Section shall be laid before Parliament as soon as may be after they are made, but if an Address is presented to His Majesty by either House of Parliament within the next subsequent twenty-one days on which that House has sat next after any such regulation is laid before it, praying that the regulation may be annulled, His Majesty in Council may annul the regulation and it shall thenceforth be void, but without prejudice to the validity of anything previously done thereunder.
    Amendments made: In Sub-section (1), after the word "chairman," insert the words "and other members (not exceeding two in number)."
    At end, add the words "and the chairman shall not by reason of his office be incapable of being elected to or voting in the Commons House of Parliament."
    Amendment, proposed in Sub-section (2), to leave out the words "various funds" ["between the 'various funds'"], and insert instead thereof the words "several funds under the control and management of the several bodies of Commissioners."
    Question put, "That those words be there inserted."
    The House divided: Ayes, 148; Noes, 55.

    Division No. 415.]

    AYES.

    [8.40 p.m.

    Abraham, William (Dublin Harbour)

    Gladstone, W. G. C.

    O'Doherty, Philip

    Acland, Francis Dyke

    Glanville, H. J.

    O'Kelly, Edward P. (Wicklow, W.)

    Addison, Dr. C.

    Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford

    O'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, S.)

    Allen, Arthur A. (Dumbarton)

    Hackett, John

    Phillips, John (Longford, S.)

    Anderson, Andrew Macbeth

    Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose)

    Power, Patrick Joseph

    Baker, Harold T. (Accrington)

    Harmsworth, Cecil (Luton, Beds)

    Priestley, Sir W. E. B. (Bradford, E.)

    Bakér, Joseph Allen (Finsbury, E.)

    Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, West)

    Pringle, William M. R.

    Baldwin, Stanley

    Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth)

    Pryce-Jones, Col. E.

    Bentham, George Jackson

    Havelock-Allan, Sir Henry

    Radford, G. H.

    Boland, John Plus

    Hayden, John Patrick

    Raffan, Peter Wilson

    Booth, Frederick Handel

    Helme Norval Watson

    Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel

    Boscawen, Sir Arthur S. T. Griffith-

    Higham, John Sharp

    Reddy, Michael

    Boyle, Daniel (Mayo, North)

    Hinds, John

    Redmond, John E. (Waterford)

    Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas

    Hoare, S. J. G.

    Rendall, Athelstan

    Buxton, Rt. Hon. Sydney C. (Poplar)

    Howard, Hon. Geoffrey

    Robertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradford)

    Carr-Gomm, H. W.

    Isaacs, Rt. Hon. Sir Rufus

    Robertson, John M. (Tyneside)

    Clough, William

    Jones, Leif Stratten (Notts, Rushcliffe)

    Robinson, Sidney

    Compton-Rickett, Sir J.

    Jones, William (Carnarvonshire)

    Roche, John (Galway, E.)

    Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.

    Jones, William S. Glyn- (Stepney)

    Roe, Sir Thomas

    Cotton, William Francis

    Joyce, Michael

    Rowlands, James

    Crawshay-Williams, Eliot

    Kennedy, Vincent Paul

    Russell, Rt. Hon. Thomas W.

    Crumley, Patrick

    Kerr-Smiley, Peter Kerr

    Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees)

    Davies, Ellis William (Eifion)

    Lewis, John Herbert

    Simon, Sir John Allsebrook

    Davies, Timothy (Lincs., Louth)

    Lundon, T.

    Smith, H. B. L. (Northampton)

    Delany, William

    Lyell, Charles Henry

    Spear, Sir John Ward

    Denman, Hon. R. D.

    Lynch, A. A.

    Summers, James Woolley

    Devlin, Joseph

    Macnamara, Rt. Hon. Dr. T. J.

    Sutherland, J. E.

    Dillon, John

    McNeill, Ronald (Kent, St. Augustine)

    Swift, Rigby

    Donelan, Captain A.

    Marks, Sir George Croydon

    Thynne, Lord Alexander

    Doris, William

    Masterman, C. F. G.

    Toulmin, Sir George

    Du Cros, Arthur Philip

    Meehan, Patrick A. (Queen's Co.)

    Trevelyan, Charles Philips

    Edwards, John Hugh (Glamorgan, Mid)

    Millar, James Duncan

    Webb, H.

    Elibank, Rt. Hon. Master of

    Molloy, M.

    Whitehouse, John Howard

    Elverston, Sir Harold

    Mooney, John J.

    Whyte, A. F. (Perth)

    Essex, Richard Walter

    Morgan, George Hay

    Wiles, Thomas

    Esslemont, George Birnie

    Morton, Alpheus Cleophas

    Williams, P. (Middlesbrough)

    Fenwick, Rt. Hon. Charles

    Muldoon, John

    Wilson, Rt. Hon. J. W. (Worc., N.)

    Ferens, Thomas Robinson

    Nannetti, Joseph P.

    Wood, Rt. Hon. T. McKinnon (Glasgow)

    Flavin, Michael Joseph

    Nicholson, Charles N. (Doncaster)

    Gardner, Ernest

    Nugent, Sir Walter Richard

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr. Gulland and Mr. Wedgwood Benn.

    George, Rt. Hon. D. Lloyd

    O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

    NOES.

    Ashley, Wilfrid W.

    Cassel, Felix

    Dawes, J. A.

    Bigland, Alfred

    Chaloner, Col. R. G. W.

    Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness)

    Bridgeman, Clive

    Clynes, John R.

    Edwards, Enoch (Hanley)

    Carlile, Sir Edward Hildred

    Collins, Godfrey P. (Greenock)

    Eyres-Monsell, Bolton M.

    Gill, A. H.

    Hudson, Walter

    Sutton, John E.

    Goldstone, Frank

    Jessel, Captain H. M.

    Taylor, John W. (Durham)

    Gwynne, R. S. (Sussex, Eastbourne)

    Jowett, Frederick William

    Thomson, W. Mitchell-(Down, North)

    Hancock, John George

    Lansbury, George

    Thorne, William (West Ham)

    Hardie, J. Keir (Merthyr Tydvil)

    Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester)

    Walsh, Stephen (Lancs., Ince)

    Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N. E.)

    Markham, Sir Arthur Basil

    Wilkie, Alexander

    Haslam, James (Derbyshire, N. E.)

    Parker, James (Halifax)

    Williams, John (Glamorgan)

    Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

    Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington)

    Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)

    Henderson, Major H. (Berks., Abingdon)

    Rowntree, Arnold

    Yate, Col. C. E..

    Hills, John Waller

    Smith, Albert (Lancs., Clitheroe)

    Hodge, John

    Smith, Harold (Warrington)

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr. Barnes and Mr. John Ward.

    Hope, Harry (Bute)

    Snowden, Philip

    Houston, Robert Paterson

    Stanley, Albert (Staffs, N. W.)

    Division No. 416.]

    AYES.

    [9.0 p.m.

    Abraham, William (Dublin Harbour)

    Glanville, H. J.

    O'Doherty, Philip

    Acland, Francis Dyke

    Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford

    O'Kelly, Edward P. (Wicklow, W.)

    Agnew, Sir George William

    Greenwood, Granville G. (Peterborough)

    O'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, S.)

    Allen, Arthur A. (Dumbarton)

    Guest, Hon. Frederick E. (Dorset, E.)

    Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek)

    Allen, Charles P. (Stroud)

    Gwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway)

    Phillips, John (Longford, S.)

    Anderson, A. M.

    Hackett, J.

    Pollard, Sir George H.

    Ashley, Wilfrid W.

    Hall, Fred (Dulwich)

    Power, Patrick Joseph

    Baker, H. T. (Accrington)

    Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrase)

    Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central)

    Baker, Joseph A. (Finsbury, E.)

    Harmsworth, Cecil (Luton, Beds.)

    Price, Sir Robert J. (Norfolk, E.)

    Balcarres, Lord

    Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale)

    Pringle, William M. R.

    Beach, Hon. Michael Hugh Hicks

    Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, W.)

    Pryce-Jones, Colonel E.

    Bentham, George Jackson

    Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth)

    Radford, G. H.

    Bethell, Sir John Henry

    Havelock-Allan, Sir Henry

    Raffan, Peter Wilson

    Boland, John Pius

    Hayden, John Patrick

    Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel

    Booth, Frederick Handel

    Helme, Norval Watson

    Rea, Walter Russell (Scarborough)

    Boscawen, Sir Arthur S. T. Griffith-

    Higham, John Sharp

    Reddy, Michael

    Boyle, D. (Mayo, N.)

    Hinds, John

    Redmond, John E. (Waterford)

    Bryce, J. Annan

    Hoare, S. J. G.

    Rendall, Athelstan

    Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas

    Howard, Hon. Geoffrey

    Richardson, Albion (Peckham)

    Buxton, Rt. Hon. S. C. (Poplar)

    Isaacs, Rt. Hon. Sir Rufus

    Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)

    Byles, Sir William Pollard

    Jessel, Captain H. M.

    Robertson, Sir C. Scott (Bradford)

    Carlile, Sir Edward Hildred

    Jones, Edgar (Merthyr Tydvil)

    Robertson, John M. (Tyneside)

    Carr-Gomm, H. W.

    Jones, Leif Stratten (Notts, Rushcliffe)

    Robinson, Sidney

    Cawley, Harold T. (Heywood)

    Jones, William (Carnarvonshire)

    Roche, John (Galway, E.)

    Collins, G. P. (Greenock)

    Jones, W. S. Glyn- (T. Hmts., Stepney)

    Roe, Sir Thomas

    Collins, Stephen (Lambeth)

    Joyce, Michael

    Rowlands, James

    Compton-Rickett, Rt. Hon. Sir J.

    Kellaway, Frederick George

    Russell, Rt. Hon. Thomas W.

    Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.

    Kennedy, Vincent Paul

    Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees)

    Cotton, William Francis

    King, J.

    Scanlan, Thomas

    Cowan, W. H.

    Lewis, John Herbert

    Simon, Sir John Allsebrook

    Crawshay-Williams, Eliot

    Lundon, T.

    Smith, H. B. L. (Northampton)

    Crumley, Patrick

    Lynch, Arthur Alfred

    Spear, Sir John Ward

    Davies, E. William (Eifion)

    M'Callum, John M.

    Summers, James Woolley

    Davies, Timothy (Lincs., Louth)

    Markham, Sir Arthur Basil

    Sutherland, J. E.

    Delany, William

    Marks, Sir George Croydon

    Swift, Rigby

    Denman, Hon. R. D.

    Marshall, Arthur Harold

    Toulmin, Sir George

    Devlin, Joseph

    Masterman, C. F. G.

    Trevelyan, Charles Philips

    Dillon, John

    Meehan, Patrick A. (Queens Co.)

    Ure, Rt. Hon. Alexander

    Donelan, Captain A.

    Millar, James Duncan

    Webb, H.

    Doris, W.

    Molloy, M.

    White, Patrick (Meath, North)

    Edwards, John Hugh (Glamorgan, Mid)

    Mooney, J. J.

    Whitehouse, John Howard

    Elibank, Rt. Hon. Master of

    Morgan, George Hay

    Whyte, A. F.

    Elverston, Sir Harold

    Morton, Alpheus Cleophas

    Wiles, Thomas

    Essex, Richard Walter

    Muldoon, John

    Williams, Penry (Middlesbrough)

    Esslemont, George Birnie

    Munro, R.

    Wilson, Rt. Hon. J. W. (Worcs., N.)

    Fenwick, Rt. Hon. Charles

    Murray, Captain Hon. A. C.

    Wood, Rt. Hon. T. McKinnon (Glas.)

    Ferens, T. R.

    Nannetti, Joseph P.

    Flavin, Michael Joseph

    Nicholson, Charles N. (Doncaster)

    Gardner, Ernest

    Nolan, Joseph

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr. Gulland and Mr. Wedgwood Benn.

    George, Rt. Hon. D. Lloyd

    Nuttall, Harry

    Gladstone, W. G. C.

    O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

    NOES.

    Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

    Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

    Snowden, P.

    Barnes, George N.

    Henderson, Major H. (Berks, Abingdon)

    Stanier, Beville

    Barrie, H. T. (Londonderry, N.)

    Hodge, John

    Stanley, Albert (Staffs, N. W.)

    Bigland, Alfred

    Hope, Harry (Bute)

    Sutton, John E.

    Bridgeman, W. Clive

    Houston, Robert Paterson

    Taylor, John W. (Durham)

    Chaloner, Col. R. G. W.

    Hudson, Walter

    Terrell, George (Wilts, N. W.)

    Clough, William

    Jowett, Frederick William

    Thomson, W. Mitchell- (Down, N.)

    Clynes, John R.

    Kerr-Smiley, Peter Kerr

    Thynne, Lord Alexander

    Dawes, J. A.

    Lansbury, George

    Walsh, Stephen (Lancs., Ince)

    Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness)

    Lyell, Charles Henry

    Wheler, Granville C. H.

    Edwards, Enoch (Hanley)

    Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester)

    Wilkie, Alexander

    Fletcher, John Samuel (Hampstead)

    Nield, Herbert

    Williams, J. (Glamorgan)

    Gastrell, Major W. H.

    Parker, James (Halifax)

    Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.)

    Gill, A. H.

    Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington)

    Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)

    Gilmour, Captain J.

    Perkins, Walter Frank

    Yate, Colonel C. E.

    Goldstone, Frank

    Rowntree, Arnold

    Gwynne, R. S. (Sussex, Eastbourne)

    Sanderson, Lancelot

    Hancock, J. G.

    Schwann, Rt. Hon. Sir C. E.

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr. John Ward and Mr. W. Thorne.

    Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N. E.)

    Smith, Albert (Lancs., Clitheroe)

    Haslam, James (Derbyshire)

    Smith, Harold (Warrington)

    Further Amendments made: In Sub-section (2), after the word "several" ["powers and duties of the several Commissioners"], insert the words "bodies of."
    At end of Sub-section (2) insert,
    "(3) Amongst the powers so exercisable by the joint committee shall be included a power of making regulations as

    789
    to the valuation of societies and branches which have amongst their members persons resident in England, Scotland, Ireland, and Wales, or any two or any three of such parts of the United Kingdom, and the regulations so made shall require that, for the purposes of the provisions of this Part of this Act relating to valuations and transfers, the members resident in each such part shall be treated as if they formed a separate society or branch."—[Mr. Lloyd George]

    CLAUSE 61.—(Power to Insurance Commissioners to make Regulations, etc.)
    The Insurance Commissioners may make regulations for any of the purposes for which regulations may be made under this Part of this Act or the Schedules therein referred to, and for prescribing anything which under this Act or any such Schedules is to be prescribed, and generally for carrying this Act into effect, and any regulations so made shall have effect as if enacted in this Act:
    Provided that if an Address is presented to His Majesty by either House of Parliament within the next subsequent twenty-one days on which that House has sat next after any such regulation is laid before it, praying that the regulation may be annulled, His Majesty in Council may annul the regulation, and it shall thenceforth be void, but without prejudice to the validity of anything previously done thereunder.
    Amendments made: After the word "this" ["anything which under this Act"] insert the words "Part of this."
    After the word "this" ["for carrying this Act"] insert the words 'Part of this."
    After the word "shall" ["regulations so made shall"] insert the words "be laid before both Houses of Parliament as soon as may be after they are made, and shall."—[Mr. Lloyd George.]

    CLAUSE 62.—(Determination of Questions by Insurance Commissioners.)
    If any question arises—

    (a) as to whether a person is liable to become insured under this Part of
    758
    this Act as being a person employed within the meaning of this Act or as to whether a person is entitled to become a voluntary contributor; or

    (b) as to the rate of contributions payable by or in respect of any insured person; or

    (c) as to the rates of contributions payable in respect of an employed contributor by the employer and the contributor respectively;

    the question shall be determined by the Insurance Commissioners, in accordance with regulations made by them for the purpose: Provided that—

    (i) if any person feels aggrieved by the decision of the Insurance Commissioners on any question arising under paragraph (a), he may appeal therefrom to the County Court, with a further right of appeal upon any question of law to such judge of the High Court as may be selected for the purpose by the Lord Chancellor, and the decision of that judge shall be final;

    (ii) the regulations of the Insurance Commissioners may provide for questions under paragraph (b) being determined in the case of any person who is or is about to become a member of an approved society, by the society.

    Amendments made: In paragraph (a), leave out the words "liable to become insured under this Part of this Act as being a person."
    In paragraph (a), after the word "this" ["within the meaning of this Act"], insert the words "Part of this."—[Mr. Lloyd George.]

    CLAUSE 63.—(Disputes.)
    (1) Every dispute between—

    (a) An approved society or a branch thereof and an insured person who is a member of such society or branch or any person claiming through him;

    759

    (b) An approved society or branch thereof, and any person who has ceased to be a member for the purposes of this Part of this Act of such society or branch, or any person claiming through him;

    (c) An approved society and any branch thereof;

    (d) Any two or more branches of an approved society,

    relating to anything done or omitted by such person, society, or branch (as the case may be) under this Part of this Act or any regulation made thereunder, shall be decided in accordance with the rules of the society, but any party to such dispute may in such cases and in such manner as may be prescribed appeal from such decision to the Insurance Commissioners.
    (2) Every dispute between a deposit contributor and the local health committee, relating to anything done or omitted by such contributor or the local health committee under this Act, or any regulation made hereunder, shall be decided in the prescribed manner by the Insurance Commissioners.
    (3) The Insurance Commissioners may authorise referees appointed by them to decide any appeal or dispute submitted to the Insurance Commissioners under this Section.
    (4) The Insurance Commissioners may make new regulations as to the procedure on any such appeal or dispute, and such regulations may apply any of the provisions of the Arbitration Act, 1889, but, except so far as it may be so applied, the Arbitration Act, 1889, shall not apply to proceedings under this Section, and any decision given by the Insurance Commissioners or a referee under this Section shall be final and conclusive.
    Amendments made: In Sub-section (1), at the beginning, insert the words "subject to the provisions of the foregoing Section."
    In Sub-section (2), leave out the words "a deposit contributor," and insert instead thereof the words "an insured person."
    Leave out the word "this" and insert instead thereof the words "part of this."—[Mr. Lloyd George.]

    CLAUSE 64.—(Protection Against Distress and Execution in Certain Cases.)
    (1) Where the medical practitioner attending on any insured person in receipt of
    760
    sickness benefit certifies that the levying of any distress or execution upon any goods or chattels belonging to such insured person and being on premises occupied by him, or the taking of any proceedings in ejectment or for the recovery of any rent or to enforce any judgment in ejectment against such person, would endanger his life, it shall not be lawful during any period named in the certificate for any person to levy any such distress or execution or to take any such proceedings or to enforce any such judgment against the insured person:
    Provided that, if any person desirous of levying such distress or execution or taking such proceedings or enforcing such judgment disputes the accuracy of the certificate, he may apply to the registrar of the county court, who, if he is of opinion that the certificate should be cancelled or modified, may make an order cancelling or modifying it, and any such order shall not be subject to appeal.
    (2) A certificate granted for the purpose of this Section shall continue in force for one week or such less period as may be named in the certificate, but may be renewed from time to time for any period not exceeding one week, up to but not beyond the expiration of three months from the date of the grant of the original certificate:
    Provided that the protection conferred by this Section shall not extend beyond the expiration of one month from such date if on demand being made by the person desirous of levying such distress or execution, or taking such proceeding, or enforcing such judgment proper security is not given for payment of rent thereafter, to become due from the insured person or the amount of the judgment debt, as the case may be, and any dispute as to the sufficiency of the security shall be determined by the registrar of the county court.
    (3) If any person knowingly levies or at tempts to levy any such distress or execution or takes any such proceedings or enforces or attempts to enforce any such judgment in contravention of this Section, he shall be liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding fifty pounds.
    Amendments made: In Sub-section (1), after the word "life" insert the words "and such certificate has been sent to the local health committee, and has been recorded in manner hereinafter provided."
    Leave out the words, "any such order shall not be subject to appeal," and insert

    761
    instead thereof the words "no appeal shall lie against any such order or a refusal to make any such order."
    In Sub-section (2) after the word "certificate" ["grant of the original certificate"] insert the words, "but no such renewal shall have effect unless sent to the local health committee and recorded as aforesaid."
    At the end, insert the words "whose decision shall be final and not subject to appeal."
    At the end of the Clause insert the following new Sub-sections,
    (4) A certificate or renewal thereof granted under this Section shall forthwith be sent to the local health committee, and the Committee shall, unless it has reason to suspect its genuineness, record it in a special register without fee, and such register shall at all reasonable times be open to inspection; and where so recorded its genuineness shall not be questioned in any proceedings against a sheriff or other officer for failure to levy any distress or execute any warrant.
    (5) Where the time within which a warrant may be executed is limited any period during which the warrant cannot be executed by reason of the provisions of this Section shall be disregarded in computing the time within which the warrant may be executed.—[Mr. Lloyd George.]

    CLAUSE 65.—(Offences.)
    (1) If for the purpose of obtaining any benefit or payment under this Part of this Act, either for himself or for any other person, any person knowingly makes any false statement or false representation, he shall be liable on summary conviction to imprisonment for a term not exceeding three months with or without hard labour.
    (2) If any employer has failed to pay any contributions which under this Part of this Act he is liable to pay in respect of an employed contributor, or if any such employer or insured person, or any other person is guilty of any other contravention of or non-compliance with any of the requirements of this Act or the regulations made thereunder in respect of which no special penalty is provided, he shall for each offence be liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding ten pounds, and where the offence is failure or neglect on the part of the employer to make any such contributions, to pay the Insurance
    762
    Commissioners a sum equal to the amount of the contributions which he has so failed or neglected to pay, which sum when paid shall be treated as a payment in satisfaction of such contributions:
    Provided that no person shall be liable to any penalty in respect of any matter if he has acted in conformity with any decision in respect thereto by the Insurance Commissioners.
    Amendments made: In Sub-section (1), after the word "payment," insert the words "or the crediting of a reserve value."
    In Sub-section (2), after the word "this" ["requirements of this Act"], insert the words "Part of this."
    At end of the Clause, insert the words "or, if the matter is one which the local health committee is competent to decide, in conformity with its decision."—[Mr. Lloyd George.]

    CLAUSE 68.—(Provisions as to Application of the Existing Funds of Friendly Societies.)
    (1) Every registered friendly society which becomes an approved society under this Part of this Act, and which provides benefits similar to those conferred by this Part of this Act, shall submit to the Registrar of Friendly Societies a scheme for continuing, abolishing, reducing, or altering such benefits as respects members who become insured persons and for continuing, abolishing, or reducing the contributions of such members, so, however, that the combined effect of the alteration of the benefits and contributions shall not prejudicially affect the solvency of the society, and, if the scheme shows on an actuarial valuation that, owing to the alteration of the benefits and contributions effected by the scheme, any part of the existing funds of the society is set free as not being required to meet the liabilities of the society, the scheme shall provide for the application of the part of the funds so set free in any one or more of the following ways:

    (a) towards the cost of the provision of other or increased benefits payable by the society independently of this Part of this Act to existing members whether insured persons or not;

    (b) in reduction of the contributions payable by such members in respect of the benefits payable by the society independently of this Part of this Act;

    763

    (c) towards the payment of contributions payable by such of its members under this Part of this Act as are entitled and elect to receive benefits under this Part of this Act through the society.

    (2) This Section shall apply to branches of registered societies in like manner as to societies: Provided that a society with branches may, if it so desires, submit a scheme applicable to all its branches, and it shall be competent for the society to provide by its scheme for the application of the whole or any part of any sums so set free towards the discharge of any deficiencies in the other branches which may be found to exist on such actuarial valuation as aforesaid.
    (3) Any scheme adopted by a society or branch of a society by a vote of the members taken in accordance with its rules and when confirmed by the registrar shall be deemed to be incorporated in the registered rules of the society or branch and may be altered accordingly, so, however, that no alteration shall be inconsistent with the provisions of this Section.
    (4) This section shall apply to seamen, marines, and soldiers, from whose pay deductions are made under this Part of this Act as if they were insured persons.
    (5) This Section shall come into operation on the passing of this Act.
    Amendments made: In Sub-section (1), leave out the words "which becomes an approved society under this part of this Act and."
    After the word "to" ["benefits similar to those conferred by this Part of this Act"], insert the words "any of."
    In paragraph (c), after the word "payment," insert the words "or repayment."
    After the word "payable" insert the words "under this Part of this Act."
    After the word "its," insert the word "existing."
    Leave out the words "under this part of this Act."
    In Sub-section (2), after the word "desires," insert the words "(subject always to the exercise of any right of a branch, expressly conferred by the rules of the society, to dispose of any of its funds for the benefit solely of the members of the branch)."
    Leave out the words "the other," and insert instead thereof the words "any of its."
    In Sub-section (3), leave out the words "by a vote of the members taken."
    After the word "registrar," insert the words "of friendly societies."
    Leave out the word "altered," and insert instead thereof the word "amended."
    Leave out the word "alteration," and insert the word "Amendment."
    In Sub-section (4), at end, insert the words "and for the purposes of this Section 'existing' means existing at the passing of this Act."—[Mr. Lloyd George.]

    CLAUSE 69.—(Provisions as to Existing Employers Provident Funds.)
    Where at the passing of this Act a provident fund or any similar fund has been established for the benefit of the persons employed by one or more employers the provisions of the last foregoing Section shall apply with the necessary adaptions and with this modification that where under the Act or deed establishing the fund any sum is payable by the employer towards benefits secured by the Act or deed, and those benefits include benefits similar to those conferred by this Part of this Act the scheme may provide for allowing the employer to deduct from any contributions payable by him under the Act or deed towards benefits of a nature similar to those under this Part of this Act an amount not exceeding the amount of the employer's contributions payable by him under this Part of this Act.
    Amendments made: Leave out the words "provident fund or any similar," and insert instead thereof the words "superannuation or other provident."
    Leave out the words "or deed" ["where under the Act or deed establishing the fund"], and insert instead thereof the words "deed or other instrument."
    After the word "fund" ["establishing the fund"], insert the words "or otherwise."
    After the word "to" ["benefits similar to those conferred"], insert the words "any of."
    Leave out the words "under the Act or deed," and insert instead thereof the words "as aforesaid."
    At the end of the Clause insert the following new Sub-section,
    (2) Where the fund is one out of which pensions or superannuation allowances are payable, and it is proved

    765
    to the satisfaction of the Insurance Commissioners that the rearrangements required in consequence of this Part of this Act will, upon a valuation under the existing rules of the fund, affect prejudicially the sum available for the payment of pensions or superannuation allowances, the Insurance Commissioners may grant a certificate authorising the value of the prospective extension of benefits under this Part of this Act when the reserve values have been written off as hereinbefore provided, to be brought into account in the valuation of the assets available for the discharge of the liabilities of the fund in respect of pensions and superannuation allowances.—[Mr. Lloyd George.]

    CLAUSE 72.—(Power to Remove Difficulties.)
    If any difficulty arises with respect to the constitution of local health committees, or the advisory committee, or otherwise in bringing into operation this Part of this Act, the Insurance Commissioners, with the consent of the Treasury, may by order make any appointment and do anything which appears to them necessary or expedient for the establishment of such committees and for bringing this Part of this Act into operation, and any such order may modify the provisions of this Act so far as may appear necessary or expedient for carrying the order into effect: Provided that the Insurance Commissioners shall not exercise the powers conferred by this Section after the first day of January, nineteen hundred and fourteen.
    Amendment made: Leave out the word "and" ["such committees and for bringing this Part of this Act into operation"], and insert instead thereof the word "or."—[Mr. Lloyd George.]

    CLAUSE 73.—(Interpretation.)
    For the purposes of this Part of this Act—
    The expression "branch," in relation to a society, shall not include any branch of the society which is not itself separately registered;
    A person whose normal occupation is employment within the meaning of this Part of this Act shall for the purpose of reckoning the number and rate of contributions be deemed to continue to be an
    766
    employed contributor notwithstanding that he is temporarily unemployed, but if such period of unemployment extends beyond twelve months, he shall not continue to be an employed contributor unless the approved society of which he is a member or, if he is not a member of such a society, the local health committee is satisfied that his unemployment is due to inability to obtain employment, and is not due to any change in his normal occupation;
    The suspension of a member of an approved society from benefits under this Part of this Act shall not be deemed to deprive the member of his membership;
    The expression "county" means administrative county;
    The Scilly Isles shall be deemed to be a county, and the council of those Isles the council of a county, but the local health committee for the Scilly Isles shall be constituted in such manner as the Insurance Commissioners prescribe.
    Amendments made: After the word "Act" ["For the purposes of this Part of this Act"], insert the words "unless the context otherwise requires."
    After the word "registered" ["which is not itself separately registered"], insert,
    "The expression 'disease or disablement' means such disease or disablement as would entitle an insured person to sickness or disablement benefit;
    "The expression 'dependents,' in relation to any person, includes such persons as the approved society or local health committee shall ascertain to be wholly or in part dependent upon his earnings."
    After the word "membership" ["deprive the members of his membership"], insert the words 'membership of an approved society' means membership for the purposes of the Part of this Act. The expression 'valuer' means an actuary possessing such qualifications as may be prescribed."
    At the end of the Clause, insert the words "Monmouthshire shall be deemed to form part of Wales.
    "A person after attaining the age of sixteen or any other specified age shall not be treated as being over that age until his next subsequent birthday."—[Mr. Lloyd George.]

    CLAUSE 74.—(Application to Scotland.)
    This Part of this Act in its application to Scotland shall be subject to the following modifications:—

    (1) For the purpose of carrying this Part of this Act into effect in Scotland there shall be constituted, as soon as may be after the passing of this Act, Commissioners for Scotland (to be called the Scottish Insurance Commissioners) with a central office in Edinburgh, and with such branch offices in Scotland as the Treasury may think fit, and the Scottish Insurance Commissioners shall be appointed by the Treasury, and may appoint such officers, inspectors, referees, and servants for the purposes aforesaid as the Scottish Insurance Commissioners, subject to the approval of the Treasury, may determine, and the provisions of this Part of this Act with respect to the payment of the salaries and remuneration of the Insurance Commissioners, and the officers, inspectors, referees, and servants appointed by them, and with respect to the payment of the expenses incurred by the Treasury or the Insurance Commissioners in carrying this Part of this Act into effect shall, with the necessary modifications, apply to the payment of the salaries and remuneration of the Scottish Insurance Commissioners and the officers, inspectors, referees, and servants appointed by them and to the payment of expenses incurred by the Treasury or the Scottish Insurance Commissioners in carrying this Part of this Act into effect in Scotland, and for the purpose aforesaid the Scottish Insurance Commissioners, and the officers, inspectors, referees, and servants appointed by them shall respectively have all the like powers and duties as are by the foregoing provisions of this Act conferred and imposed on the Insurance Commissioners and the officers, inspectors, referees, and servants appointed by them, and references in those provisions to the Insurance Commissioners shall be construed as references to the Scottish Insurance Commissioners:

    (1) All sums received in respect of contributions in Scotland under this Part of this Act, and all sums paid out of moneys provided by Parliament
    768
    in respect of benefits under this Part of this Act which are administered in Scotland, and the expenses of administration of such benefits shall be paid into a fund to be called the Scottish National Health Insurance Fund, under the control and management of the Scottish Insurance Commissioners, and the sums required to meet expenditure properly incurred by approved societies and local health committees for the purposes of the benefits administered by them in Scotland, and the administration of of such benefits shall be paid out of that fund, and the foregoing provisions of this Act, with respect to the National Health Insurance Fund, shall, with the necessary modifications, apply to the Scottish National Health Insurance Fund accordingly:

    (3) Joint regulations to be made by the Insurance Commissioners and the Scottish Insurance Commissioners with the approval of the Treasury shall provide for the preparation on a uniform basis of the tables to be prepared by the respective Commissioners, and for the making of all necessary adjustments and settlements of accounts in cases of insured persons removing from Scotland to England or Ireland or from England or Ireland to Scotland, as the case may be, both as between the National Health Insurance Fund and the Scottish or Irish National Insurance Fund and as between approved societies and branches and otherwise in respect of such cases, and for the transfer of sums from one fund or account to another:

    (4) The expression "Local Government Board" means the Local Government Board for Scotland (in this Section referred to as the Board): Provided that as regards the making of regulations respecting sums payable out of the Local Taxation (Scotland) Account the said expression means the Secretary for Scotland; the expression "Local Taxation Account" means the Local Taxation (Scotland) Account; and the expression "inspector of the Local Government Board" includes a person acting under Section seven or Section eight of the Public Health (Scotland) Act, 1897:

    769

    (5) The expression "county borough" means a burgh or police burgh within the meaning of the Local Government (Scotland) Act, 1889 (in this Section referred to as the Act of 1889), containing within the police boundaries thereof according to the census of nineteen hundred and eleven a population of twenty thousand or upwards, and all other burghs and police burghs shall, for the purposes of this Part of this Act, be held to be within the county, and unless already represented on the county council shall, for the purposes of this Part of this Act, be represented thereon as may be determined by the Secretary for Scotland:

    (6) Except in this Section, references to a county and the county councils thereof shall, as regards—

    (a) the counties of Kinross and Clackmannan;

    (b) the counties of Elgin and Nairn; and

    (c) the counties of Peebles and Selkirk;

    be construed in each case as references respectively to a combination of the two recited counties and to a joint committee of the county councils thereof which shall from time to time be appointed subject to the provisions of Section seventy-six of the Act of 1889:
    (7) No person shall be qualified for appointment as member of a local health committee by a county or town council unless he is a member of a local authority within the county under the Public Health (Scotland) Act, 1897, or of the town council, as the case may be; but this requirement shall not apply to women if women so qualified are not available:
    (8) Before submitting for approval a scheme prescribing areas to be assigned to auxiliary committees the local health committee of a county shall consult with the county council, or any committee thereof appointed for the purpose, and shall consider any representation received from them:
    (9) Where, owing to sparseness of population, difficulties of communication, or other special circumstances, they
    770
    consider it desirable, a local health committee shall have power, with the consent of the Scottish Insurance Commissioners, to modify or suspend any benefits for the administration of which they are responsible; but where such modification or suspension takes place provision shall be made by the committee, with the like consent, for the increase of other benefits or the grant of one or more additional benefits to an amount equivalent to the value of the modification or suspension:
    (10) (a) If it appears to any county council that, having regard to the number of employed contributors resident in the county who are not members of any society approved under the foregoing provisions of this Act, it is desirable that steps should be taken for the establishment under the council of an approved society for the county (in this Section referred to as a county society) the council may at any time before the expiration of one year from the commencement of this Act submit to the Insurance Commissioners a scheme for the establishment of a county society;
    (b) The scheme may provide for—

    (i.) the representation of the council on the committee of management of the society;

    (ii.) The appointment of officers and sub-committees;

    (iii.) the delegation of powers to sub-committees;

    (iv.) the giving of security by means of a charge upon the general purposes rate or otherwise;

    (v.) the restriction of membership to insured persons resident in the county not being members of any other approved society;

    (vi.) the reduction of benefits below the minimum rates fixed by this Part of this Act; and

    (vii.) such other matters as may appear necessary, and in particular such further modifications of the provisions of this Part of this Act with respect to approved societies as may be required for the purpose of adapting those provisions to the case of a county society;

    (c) Where such a scheme has been approved by the Insurance Commissioners, the provisions of the scheme shall have effect notwithstanding anything to the contrary in this Part of this Act; and, subject to those provisions, the county society shall be an approved society for all the purposes of this Part of this Act;
    (d) A county council desirous of submit ting a scheme under this Section may at any time after the passing of this Act take such steps as appear necessary with a view to ascertaining what insured persons resident in the county are eligible and willing to become members of the proposed county society, and generally for the formation of the society:
    (11) Expenses incurred by a county council under this Part of this Act shall be defrayed out of the general purposes rate; provided that notwithstanding anything contained in the Act of 1889, the ratepayers of a police burgh shall not be assessed by the county council for any such expenses unless the police burgh is, for the purposes of this Part of this Act, held to be within the county; and provided further that with respect to every burgh within the meaning of the Act of 1889, which is, for the purposes of this Act, held to be within the county, Sub-section three and Subjection four of Section sixty, and Section sixty-six, of the Act of 1889, shall, so far as applicable, have effect as if such expenses were expenditure therein mentioned:
    (12) Expenses incurred by a town council under this Part of this Act (whether under requisition from the county council or otherwise) shall be defrayed out of the public health general assessment, but shall not be reckoned in any calculation as to the statutory limit of that assessment; and references to the borough fund or borough rate shall be construed accordingly:
    (13) The expression "borough" and the expression "urban district" mean a burgh or police burgh within the meaning of the Act of 1889, and the expressions "rural district" and "council of a rural district," unless inconsistent with the context, mean respectively a district of a county within the meaning of the said Act and the district committee thereof:
    (14) The expression "Lord Chief Justice," in reference to questions or disputes arising between the Insurance Office and a society whose head office or principal place of business is in Scotland, means the Lord President of the Court of Session:
    (15) The expression "County Court" means the Sheriff Court; and in lieu of an appeal from the County Court upon any question of law there shall be substituted an appeal from the sheriff upon any question of law in terms of Sub-section (17) (b) of the Second Schedule to the Workmen's Compensation Act, 1906; provided that the decision of either division of the Court of Session on such appeal shall be final:
    (16) The expression "workhouse" means poorhouse; "coverture" means marriage; "levy any distress or execution upon" means use any diligence in respect of; "ejectment" means removing; "amount of judgment debt" means amount decerned for; "Public Health Acts" means the Public Health (Scotland) Acts; and "High Court" means Court of Session.
    Amendments made: In Sub-section (1), after the word "Commissioners" ["and the Scottish Insurance Commissioners shall be appointed by the Treasury"], insert instead thereof the words "of whom one at least shall be a duly qualified medical practitioner."
    Leave out the word "foregoing" ["powers and duties as are by the foregoing provisions of this Act conferred"].
    In Sub-section (2), leave out the words "in respect of" ["all sums received in respect of contributions"], and insert instead thereof the word "from."
    Leave out the word "Scotland" ["contributions in Scotland"].
    After the word "Act" ["contributions in Scotland under this Part of the Act"], insert the words "in respect of insured persons resident in Scotland."
    Leave out the words "which are administered in Scotland," and insert instead thereof "to such persons."
    Leave out the second word "the" ["health committees for the purposes of the benefits administered by them in Scotland"], and insert instead thereof the word "such."
    Leave out the words "administered by them in Scotland."
    Leave out Subjection (3).
    In Sub-section (5), after the word "upwards" ["population of twenty thousand or upwards"], insert the words "and includes the burgh of Dumfries and the police burgh of Maxwelltown, as if they were a single burgh."
    At the end of Sub-section (5) insert,
    Provided that references to the council of a county borough shall, in the case of Dumfries and Maxwelltown, be construed as references to a joint committee of the town councils thereof which shall from time to time be appointed subject to the provisions of Section seventy-six of the Act of 1889.
    In Sub-section (6), after the word "Clackmannan," insert the word "and."
    Leave out the words "and (c) the counties of Peebles and Selkirk."
    In Sub-section (8), leave out the word "auxiliary," and insert instead thereof the word "district."
    In Sub-section (10) insert,
    (e) A person appointed in terms of Section fifty-nine of this Act to hold an inquiry shall report to the authority appointing him, and any further action following on such inquiry which, in accordance with the provisions of that Section, is to be or may be taken by the person making the inquiry, shall not be taken by him, but may be taken by that authority after consideration of the report, and that Section shall be read and construed accordingly.
    In Sub-section (14), at the end, insert,
    Provided that the population limit prescribed for boroughs and urban districts in the Sub-section of this Act relating to the appointment of district committees for these areas shall not apply.
    In Sub-section (16), leave out the word "upon" ["levy any distress or execution upon "].
    Leave out the words "in respect of" ["any diligence in respect of"].
    Leave out the word "for" ["'amount of judgment debt' means amount decerned for"], and insert instead thereof the words "'registrar of the county court' means court exercising jurisdiction in the
    774
    proceedings; 'public elementary school' means public school."
    After the word "Acts" ["Public Health (Scotland) Acts"], insert the figures "1897 and 1907."
    At the end of the Clause, insert,
    (17) Unless inconsistent with the context, references to The Elementary School Teachers' Superannuation Act, 1898, to the deferred annuity fund under that Act, and to the Board of Education, shall be construed, respectively, as references to Section fourteen of The Education (Scotland) Act, 1908, and a scheme thereunder, to the Scottish Teachers' Superannuation Fund, and to the Scotch Education Department. — [Mr. Lloyd George.]

    CLAUSE 75.—(Application to Ireland,)
    This Part of this Act, in its application to Ireland, shall be subject to the following modifications:—

    (1) For the purpose of carrying this Part of this Act into effect in Ireland there shall be constituted, as soon as may be after the passing of this Act, Commissioners for Ireland (to be called the Irish Insurance Commissioners), with a central office in Dublin, and with such branch offices in Ireland as the Treasury may think fit, and the Irish Insurance Commissioners shall be appointed by the Treasury, and may appoint such officers, inspectors, referees, and servants for the purposes aforesaid as the Irish Insurance Commissioners, subject to the approval of the Treasury, may determine, and the provisions of this Part of this Act with respect to the payment of the salaries and remuneration of the Insurance Commissioners and the officers, inspectors, referees, and servants appointed by them, and with respect to the payment of the expenses incurred by the Treasury or the Insurance Commissioners in carrying this Part of this Act into effect shall, with the necessary modifications, apply to the payment of the salaries and remuneration of the Irish Insurance Commissioners and the officers, inspectors, referees, and servants appointed by them and to the payment of expenses incurred by the Treasury or the Irish Insurance Commissioners in carrying this Part of this

    775
    Act into effect in Ireland, and for the purpose aforesaid the Irish Insurance Commissioners and the officers, inspectors, referees, and servants appointed by them shall respectively have all the like powers and duties as are by the foregoing provisions of this Act conferred and imposed on the Insurance Commissioners and the officers, inspectors, referees, and servants appointed by them, and references to those provisions to the Insurance Commissioners shall be construed as references to the Irish Insurance Commissioners.

    (2) All sums received in respect of contributions in Ireland under this Part of this Act and all sums paid Out of moneys provided by Parliament in respect of benefits under this Part of this Act which are administered in Ireland, and the expenses of administration of such benefits shall be paid into a fund to be called the Irish National Health Insurance Fund under the control and management of the Irish Insurance Commissioners, and the sums required to meet expenditure properly incurred by approved societies and local health committees for the purposes of the benefits administered by them in Ireland, and the administration of such benefits shall be paid out of that fund and the foregoing provisions of this Act with respect to the National Health Insurance Fund shall with the necessary modifications apply to the Irish National Health Insurance Fund accordingly:

    (3) Joint regulations to be made by the Insurance Commissioners and the Irish Insurance Commissioners with the approval of the Treasury shall provide for the preparation on a uniform basis of the tables to be prepared by the respective Commissioners, and for the making of all necessary adjustments and settlements of accounts in cases of insured persons removing from Great Britain to Ireland or from Ireland to Great Britain, both as between the National Insurance Fund and the Irish National Insurance Fund and as between approved societies and branches and otherwise in respect of such cases, and for the transfer of sums from one fund or account to another:

    776

    (4) The provisions of this Part of this Act conferring a right to exemption shall extend to any person employed in harvesting or other agricultural work who proves—

    (a) that he is an Irish migratory labourer, that is to say, a person who, having a permanent home at some place in Ireland, has temporarily removed to some other place in Ireland or to Great Britain for the purpose of obtaining such employment; and

    (b) that he ordinarily resides at such permanent home for not less than twenty-six weeks in the year and is not employed within the meaning of this Part of this Act whilst so resident;

    and any contributions payable by the employer of a person holding a certificate of exemption by virtue of this provision shall be carried by the Irish Insurance Commissioners to such special account and dealt with in such manner as may be prescribed, and if paid in Great Britain shall be transferred to the Irish Insurance Commissioners for that purpose:
    (5) Employment in Ireland as an outworker in a class of work specified in any special order made under Part VI. of the Factory and Workshop Act, 1901, where the wages or other remuneration derived from the employment are not the principal means of livelihood of the person employed, shall be deemed to be included amongst the excepted employments specified in Part II. of the First Schedule to this Act:
    (6) The reference to the Lord Chancellor shall be construed as a reference to the Lord Chancellor of Ireland;
    The reference to the Lord Chief Justice shall, as respects disputes or questions arising between the Insurance Commissioners and any approved society having its head office or principal place of business in Ireland, be construed as a reference to the Lord Chief Justice of Ireland;
    The reference to the Local Government Board as regards the making of regulations with respect to payments out of the Local Taxation Account shall be construed as a reference to the Lord Lieutenant, and

    777
    other references to the Local Government Board shall be construed as references to the Local Government Board for Ireland, and the reference to the Local Taxation Account shall be construed as a reference to the Local Taxation (Ireland) Account:
    (7) A reference to the Housing of the Working Classes (Ireland) Acts, 1890 to 1908, shall be substituted for the reference to the Housing of the Working Classes Acts, 1890 to 1909, and a reference to the Public Health (Ireland) Acts, 1878 to 1907, shall be substituted for the reference to the Public Health Acts:
    (8)—(a) If it appears to any county council that, having regard to the number of employed contributors resident in the county who are not members of any society approved under the foregoing provisions of this Act it is desirable that steps should be taken by the council for the establishment of an approved society for the county under the council (in this Section referred to as a county society), the council may at any time before the expiration of one year from the commencement of this Act submit to the Insurance Commissioners a scheme for the establishment of a county society;
    (b) The scheme may provide for—

    (i) the representation of the council on the committee of management of the society;

    (ii) the appointment of officers and district and other committees by the council;

    (iii) the delegation of powers to committees;

    (iv) The giving of security by means of a charge upon the county fund or otherwise;

    (v) the restriction of membership to insured persons resident in the county not being members of any other approved society;

    (vi) the reduction of benefits below the minimum rates fixed by this Part of this Act; and

    (vii) such others matters as may appear necessary, and in particular such further modifications of the provisions of this Part of this Act with respect to approved
    778
    societies as may be required for the purpose of adapting those provisions to the case of a county society;

    (c) Where such a scheme has been approved by the Insurance Commissioners, the provisions of the scheme shall have effect notwithstanding anything to the contrary in this Part of this Act; and, subject to those provisions, the county society shall be an approved society for all the purposes of this Part of this Act;
    (d) A county council desirous of submitting a scheme under this Section may at any time after the passing of this Act take such steps as appear necessary with a view to ascertaining what insured persons resident in the county are eligible and willing to become members of the proposed county society, and generally for the formation of the society:
    (9) The provisions with respect to the appointment of local health committees shall have effect subject to the following modifications, namely:—
    The number of members of a local health committee shall be twenty-four, and of that number—

    (a) twelve shall be appointed in such manner as may be prescribed by regulations of the Irish Insurance Commissioners so as to secure representation of the insured persons resident in the county or county borough who are members of approved societies, and who are deposit contributors in proportion as nearly as may be to their respective numbers, and the regulations so made shall provide for conferring on the approved societies which have members resident in the county or county borough the power of appointing representatives of such members, and where an association of deposit contributors resident in the county or county borough has been formed under such regulations as aforesaid for conferring on such associations the power of appointing the representatives of the deposit contributors;

    (b) eight (of whom at least one shall be a member of a local sanitary authority and at least two shall be women) shall be appointed

    779
    by the council of the county or county borough; and

    (c) four (of whom at least two shall be duly qualified medical practitioners) shall be appointed by the Irish Insurance Commissioners;

    Provided that the Irish Insurance Comsioners may, where any part of the cost of sanatorium benefit is defrayed by the council of the county or county borough, increase the representation of the council and make a corresponding diminution in the representation of the insured persons:
    (10) An insured person in Ireland shall not be entitled to medical benefit under this Part of this Act, and the provisions with respect, to medical (benefit shall not apply:
    Provided that medical benefit for an insured person being a member of an approved society shall be deemed to be included amongst the additional benefits specified in Part II. of the Fourth Schedule to this Act:
    (11) As respects employed contributors in Ireland, the employed rate shall be at the rate specified in Part II. of the Second Schedule to this Act, and the contributions by the contributors and contributions by the employers shall be at the rates specified in Part II. instead of that rates specified in Part I. of that Schedule, and there shall be credited to the society of which any employed contributor in Ireland is a member or, if he is a deposit contributor, to his account in the Post Office fund, the difference between the amount of contributions actually paid by or in respect of him at the rate specified in Part II. of the Second Schedule to this Act and the amount which would have been paid if those contributions had been at the rate specified in Part I. of that Schedule, and the amount of that difference shall be treated as having been expended on benefits and the proper proportion thereof shall accordingly be paid out of moneys provided by Parliament:
    (12) The foregoing provisions of this Section as to the crediting of differences shall apply in the case of voluntary contributors in Ireland,
    780
    with the modification that where the voluntary rate is not the same as the employed rate the difference to be credited shall be the difference between the amount of contributions actually paid at the voluntary rate and the amount which would have been paid if the contributor had been a voluntary contributor in Great Britain:
    Provided that in the case of a married woman in Ireland becoming a voluntary contributor at reduced rates of benefit under the special provisions with respect to married women, the rate of contributions payable by her shall be one penny halfpenny a week instead of three pence a week, and the difference to be credited shall be one penny halfpenny a week accordingly:
    (13) In estimating for the purpose of valuation the liabilities of an approved society having members in Ireland who are insured persons, and in ascertaining the voluntary rate applicable to voluntary contributors in Ireland in cases where that rate is not the same as the employed rate, regard shall be had both to the provisions of this Section as to the crediting of differences and to the proportion of benefits to be paid out of the contributions payable by or in respect of such members or contributors:
    (14) Rules of an approved society or local health committee under this Part of this Act may provide for the inspection of medical relief registers by officers of the society or committee at all reasonable times and for the furnishing to the society or committee of such medical certificates as may be necessary for the purposes of the administration of the benefits administered by the society or committee, and for the payment by the society or committee to duly qualified medical practitioners of such remuneration in respect of the furnishing of those certificates as the Irish Insurance Commissioners may sanction, and all payments so made by the society or Committee shall be treated as expenses of administering the benefits aforesaid:
    (15) If a grant is made to a county council or county borough council

    781
    out of any sum made available under any other Act of the present Session for the purposes of the provision of sanatoria and other institutions for the treatment of tuberculosis or such other diseases as the Local Government Board may with the approval of the Treasury appoint, the council may, subject to the sanction of the Local Government Board, exercise for all or any of those purposes the powers given to them by Part II. of the Tuberculosis Prevention (Ireland) Act, 1908, in like manner as if those purposes were purposes authorised by that Part of that Act, and any expenses of the council so far not defrayed out of the grant shall be defrayed in manner provided by that Part of that Act:
    (16) For the purposes of proceedings in Ireland under the provisions of this Part of this Act relative to disputes regulations of the Insurance Commissioners may apply all or any of the provisions of the Common Law Procedure (Ireland) Act, 1856, with respect to arbitration.
    Amendments made: In Sub-section (1), after the word "Commissioners" ["and the Irish Insurance Commissioners shall"], insert the words "of whom one at least shall be a duly qualified medical practitioner."
    Leave out the word "foregoing."
    In Sub-section (2), leave out the words "in respect of" ["in respect of contributions"], and insert instead thereof the word "from."
    Leave out the words "in Ireland" ["contributions in Ireland"].
    After the word "Act" ["under this part of this Act"], insert the words "in respect of insured persons resident in Ireland."
    Leave out the words "which are administered in Ireland," and insert instead thereof the words "to such persons."
    Leave out the word "the" ["of the benefits administered"] and insert instead thereof the word "such."
    Leave out the words "administered by them in Ireland."
    Leave out Sub-section (3).
    In Sub-section (4), paragraph (b), leave out the word "payable," and insert instead
    782
    thereof the words "paid in Great Britain."
    In paragraph (b), leave out the words "shall be carried by the Irish Insurance Commissioners to such special account and dealt with in such manner as may be prescribed, and if paid in Great Britain."
    In paragraph (b), leave out, at the end, the words "that purpose," and insert instead thereof the words "the purpose of being carried to such account and being dealt with in such manner as may be prescribed by the regulations made in that behalf by the Irish Insurance Commissioners."
    In Sub-section (5), leave out the words "in a class of work specified in any special order made under Part VI. of the Factory and Workshop Act, 1911."
    In Sub-section (6), after the word "the" ["the Insurance Commissioners"], insert the word "Irish."
    In Sub-section (7), leave out the word "and" ["and a reference"].
    At the end of Sub-section (7), add the words "and a reference to the rate or fund applicable to the purposes of the Public Health (Ireland) Acts, 1878 to 1907, shall be substituted for any reference to the borough rate or borough fund."
    In Sub-section (8), paragraph (a), after the word "the" ["submit to the Insurance Commissioners"], insert the word "Irish."
    In paragraph (b), Sub-section (ii), leave out the words "and district and other committees by," and insert instead thereof the words "subject to the approval of."
    In Sub-section (b), after the word "the" ["approved by the Insurance Commissioners"], insert the word "Irish."
    At end of Sub-section (10) insert the words "and that such medical benefit when provided shall be administered by the local Health Committee in accordance with the provisions of this Part of this Act unless the Irish Insurance Commissioners otherwise direct."
    In Sub-section (12), after the word "voluntary" ["voluntary contributors"], insert the word "resident."
    After the words "paid if the" insert the word "voluntary."
    After the word "woman" ["case of a married woman"], insert the word "resident."
    In Sub-section (13), leave out the words "In estimating for the purpose of valuation the liabilities of an approved society having members in Ireland who are insured persons, and."
    Leave out the words "members or" ["in respect of such members or contributors"].
    In Sub-section (16), after the words "regulations of the," insert the word "Irish."
    At end of Clause insert the following new Sub-sections,
    (17) The special provisions with respect to the reduction of contributions in cases where the employer is liable to pay wages during sickness shall have effect, subject to the modification that where the rate of contributions payable by the employed contributor is one halfpenny a week the weekly contributions payable by the employer shall be reduced by one penny halfpenny (or if the employed contributor is a woman one penny), and the weekly contributions pay able by the employed contributor shall be reduced by one halfpenny.
    (18) As respects insured persons in Ireland "six-elevenths" shall be substituted for "four-sevenths" and (in the case of women) "four-ninths" shall be substituted for "one-half."
    (19) For the reference to the registrar of the County Court there shall be substituted a reference to a magistrate appointed under the Constabulary (Ireland) Act, 1836.—[Mr. Lloyd George.]

    CLAUSE 76.—(Establishment of Commissioners for Wales.)
    (1) For the purpose of carrying this Part of this Act into effect in Wales there shall be constituted, as soon as may be after the passing of this Act, Commissioners for Wales (to be called the Welsh Insurance Commissioners) with a central office in such town in Wales as the Treasury may determine, and with such branch offices in Wales as the Treasury may think fit, and the Welsh Insurance Commissioners shall be appointed by the Treasury, and may appoint such officers, inspectors, referees, and servants for the purposes aforesaid as the Welsh Insurance Commissioners, subject to the approval of the Treasury, may determine, and the provisions of this Part of this Act with respect to the payment of the salaries and
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    remuneration of the Insurance Commissioners, and the officers, inspectors, referees, and servants appointed by them, and with respect to the payment of the expenses incurred by the Treasury or the Insurance Commissioners in carrying this Part of this Act into effect shall, with the necessary modifications, apply to the payment of the salaries and remuneration of the Welsh Insurance Commissioners and the officers, inspectors, referees, and servants appointed by them, and to the payment of expenses incurred by the Treasury or the Welsh Insurance Commissioners in carrying this Part of this Act into effect in Wales, and for the purpose aforesaid the Welsh Insurance Commissioners and the officers, inspectors, referees, and servants appointed by them shall respectively have all the like powers and duties as are by the foregoing provisions of this Act conferred and imposed on the Insurance Commissioners and the officers, inspectors, referees, and servants appointed by them, and references in those provisions to the Insurance Commissioners shall be construed as references to the Welsh Insurance Commissioners.
    (2) All sums received in respect of contributions in Wales under this Part of this Act, and all sums paid out of moneys provided by Parliament in respect of benefits under this Part of this Act which are administered in Wales, and the expenses of administration of such benefits shall be paid into a fund to be called the Welsh National Health Insurance Fund, under the control and management of the Welsh Insurance Commissioners, and the sums required to meet expenditure properly incurred by approved societies and local Health Committees for the purposes of the benefits administered by them in Wales, and the administration of such benefits shall be paid out of that fund, and the foregoing provisions of this Act, with respect to the National Health Insurance Fund, shall, with the necessary modifications, apply to the Welsh National Health Insurance Fund accordingly.
    (3) Joint regulations to be made by the Insurance Commissioners and the Welsh Insurance Commissioners, with the approval of the Treasury, shall provide for the preparation on a uniform basis of the tables to be prepared by the respective Commissioners, and for the making of all necessary adjustments and settlements of accounts in cases of insured persons removing from Wales to England or Scotland or Ireland or from England or Scotland

    785
    or Ireland to Wales, as the case may be, both as between the National Health Insurance Fund and the Scottish or Irish or Welsh National Insurance Fund and as between approved societies and branches and otherwise in respect of such cases, and for the transfer of sums from one fund or account to another.
    (4) For the purposes of this Section Monmouthshire shall be deemed to form part of Wales.
    Amendments made: In Sub-section (1), after the word "Commissioners" [" Welsh Insurance Commissioners"], insert the words "of whom one at least shall be a duly qualified medical practitioner."
    Leave out the word "foregoing" ["duties as are by the foregoing"].
    In Sub-section (2), leave out the words "in respect of," and insert instead the word "from."
    Leave out the words "in Wales" ["contributions in Wales"].
    After the word "Act" ["Part of this Act"], insert the words "in respect of insured persons resident in Wales."
    Leave out the words "which are administered in Wales," and insert instead thereof the words "to such persons."
    Leave out the word "the" ["purposes of the"], and insert the word "such."
    Leave out the words "administered by them in Wales."
    Leave out Sub-section (3), and insert instead thereof,
    (3) The powers of the Local Government Board with respect to the distribution of any sum available for the purpose of the provision of sanatoria and other institutions shall, as respects the part thereof apportioned to Wales, be exercised by the Welsh Insurance Commissioners.
    (4) If before or within twelve months after the commencement of this Act there is established for Wales by royal charter an association for the purpose of providing sanatoria and other institutions for the treatment and prevention of tuberculosis or such other diseases as the Local Government Board, with the approval of the Treasury, may appoint, the Welsh Insurance Commissioners in making and the Treasury in approving grants from any such sum as is in the last preceding Subsection mentioned, shall have regard
    786
    to the provision of such institutions, which may have been made, or may be proposed to be made, by the association.
    Leave out Sub-section (4).—[Mr. Lloyd George.]

Part II.
  UNEMPLOYMENT INSURANCE.

    CLAUSE 78.—(Right of Workmen in Insured Trades to Unemployment Benefit.)
    Every workman who, having been employed in a trade mentioned in the Sixth Schedule to this Act (in this Act referred to as "an insured trade"), is unemployed, and in whose case the conditions laid down by this Part of this Act (in this Act referred to as "statutory conditions") are fulfilled, shall be entitled, subject to the provisions of this Part of this Act, to receive payments (in this Act referred to as "unemployment benefit") at weekly or other prescribed intervals at such rates and for such periods as are authorised by or under the Seventh Schedule to this Act, so long as those conditions continue to be fulfilled, and so long as he is not disqualified under this Act for the receipt of unemployment benefit:
    Provided that unemployment benefit shall not be paid in respect of any period of unemployment during the six months following the commencement of this Act.
    Amendment made: After the word "unemployment" ["in respect of any period of unemployment"], insert the words "which occurs."—[Mr. Buxton.]

    CLAUSE 79.—(Contributions by Workmen, Employers, and the Treasury.)
    (1) The sums required for the payment of unemployment benefit under this Act shall be derived partly from contributions by workmen in the insured trades and partly from contributions from employers of such workmen and partly from moneys provided by Parliament.
    (2) Subject to the provisions of this Part of this Act, every workman employed within the United Kingdom in an insured trade, and every employer of any such workman, shall be liable to pay contributions at the rates specified in the English Schedule to this Act.
    (3) Except where the regulations under this Part of this Act otherwise prescribe, the employer shall, in the first instance, be liable to pay both the contribution payable by himself, and also on behalf of and to the exclusion of the workman, the contribution payable by such workman, and subject to such regulations, shall be entitled, notwithstanding the provisions of any Act or any contract to the contrary, to recover from the workman by deductions from his wages or otherwise the amount of the contributions so paid by him on behalf of the workman.
    (4) Notwithstanding any contract to the contrary the employer shall not be entitled to deduct from the wages of, or otherwise recover from, the workman the contributions payable by the employer himself.
    (5) Subject to the provisions of this Part of this Act, the Board of Trade may make regulations providing for any matters incidental to the payment and collection of contributions payable under this Part of this Act, and in particular for—

    (a) payment of contributions by means of adhesive or other stamps affixed to or impressed upon books or cards, and for regulating the manner, times and conditions in, at and under which such stamps are to be affixed and impressed;

    (b) the issue sale custody or delivery up of books or cards and the replacement of books or cards which have been lost destroyed or defaced.

    (6) A contribution shall be made in each year out of moneys provided by Parliament equal to one-third of the total contributions received from employers and workmen during that year, and the sums to be contributed in any year shall be paid in such manner and at such times as the Treasury may determine.
    Amendments made: In Sub-section (1), leave out the word "from" ["contributions from employers"], and insert the word "by."
    In Subjection (3) leave out the word "his" ["by deductions from his wages or otherwise"], and insert the words "the workman's."
    In Sub-section (3), leave out the word "otherwise" ["his wages or otherwise "], and insert the words "from any other payment due from him to the workman."—[Mr. Buxton.]
    Sir A. GRIFFITH-BOSCAWEN: I beg to move to leave out Sub-section (4).
    The President of the Board of Trade will remember that when we discussed this in Committee, it was pointed out that this Sub-section caused the Clause to be unfairly drawn as between the employer and the workman. The Subsection specifically lays down that,
    "Notwithstanding any contract to the contrary the employer shall not be entitled to deduct from the wages of, or otherwise recover from, the workman the contributions payable by the employer himself."
    In other words, a specific bar is put on the employer from deducting from the workman's wages the employer's own contribution. It was pointed out in Committee that if that is done there ought also to be a specific bar put upon the workman from compelling the employer not to deduct his contribution. We proposed as an Amendment that,
    "Notwithstanding anything contained in the Trades Disputes Act it shall be unlawful for employed contributors, whether in pursuance of a trade dispute or not, to attempt to recover either directly or indirectly from the employer the amount of their contributions."
    Our view was this, that unless this Sub-section were omitted or this Amendment were put in as a proviso to the Sub-section it would be open to any trade union, or association of workmen to engineer a strike to compel the employer to pay the contributions which the workmen were compelled to pay under the Bill, and that, having regard to the very wide powers given by the Trade Disputes Act, 1906, such a strike might be engineered, the strike would be legal, and the trade union would be perfectly immune. The Solicitor-General pointed out that that would not be perfectly fair to that workman, and subsequently we proposed another Amendment to make not only a strike for that purpose illegal but also a lock-out on the part of the employer. The Government, however, refused to accept either one Amendment or the other. I fully admit that both the Amendments are very difficult, but I want to ask the Government why they want to have Sub-section (4) at all. In Clause 5, which deals with contributions to be paid under the health part, there is no such provision at
    792
    all as this contained in Sub-section (4). Let me read the operative part of Clause 5, Sub-section (2):—
    "The employer shall in the first instance pay both the contributions payable by himself and also, on behalf of the employed contributors, the contributions payable by such contributor and shall be entitled to recover from the contributor, by deduction from wages or otherwise, the amount of the contribution so paid by him on behalf of the contributor in accordance with the rules set out in the third Schedule of this Act."
    That provision is precisely as that contained in Sub-section (3) of Clause 79, but there is no subsequent provision in Clause 5 similar to Sub-section (4) of Clause 79, and I want to know why on earth it is necessary to give this specific power to the employer in regard to the contribution he paid on behalf of the workman in the unemployed part of the Bill when it was not thought necessary to give him any such power at all with regard to the health part of the Bill. I know the President of the Board of Trade is most anxious to meet the wishes of the employers as far as he can, and to make the Bill work as smoothly as possible, recognising that it imposes very large additional burdens upon industry, but this particular Sub-section is likely to cause a good deal of trouble. It certainly is not quite fair to the employer that this Sub-section should be in while he himself is in no way protected against a strike against this deduction from wages.
    Mr. HOARE: I beg to second the Amendment.
    The SOLICITOR-GENERAL (Sir John Simon): If the hon. Gentleman's proposal were accepted there would be no provision in Part II. of the Bill to the effect that the employer was not entitled to deduct from the workman's wages that part of the contribution which the employer himself ought to pay. The hon. Gentleman recommends this proposal to the House on the ground, as it appears to him, that there is no such provision in Part I. of the Bill. I am afraid he has been devoting so much attention to Part II. that he really has not studied Part I. as closely as he should have done before he made that statement. Schedule 8 provides:—
    "Notwithstanding any contract to the contrary the employer shall not be entitled to deduct from wages, or otherwise

    793
    recover from a contributor, the employer's contribution."
    The hon. Gentleman was, therefore, in error in supposing that there is no such provision in Part I., and, in point of fact, that provision which exists in Part I., of course, ought also to exist in Part II. What we have done in Clause 79, by the Amendment already accepted and by the further Amendment we are about to propose in Sub-section (4), is to remove any possible ambiguity in the language of these two Sub-sections. It was pointed out in Committee that there might be some misunderstanding as to what was meant by the phrase "otherwise recover," and I think that criticism was quite well founded; and I am sincerely anxious to meet criticism if it is well founded. For that reason we have been careful now to introduce such changes in the Clause as will make it quite plain that when one speaks of recovering otherwise, one is not referring to any attempt to prohibit that which cannot be prohibited by law, namely, the alteration of a scale of wages by industrial conflict. We all hope these industrial conflicts will not arise, but most certainly if either side desires to enter into such industrial conflicts, no Act of Parliament would prevent it, and it cannot be prevented, for this most simple reason. If you propose that the employer shall be prohibited from endeavouring to throw his contributions on the workman by some form of industrial conflict, the employer will very easily get over that difficulty by offering some other explanation for a lock-out. In the same way it is idle to legislate that the workman, in view of the new charges put upon him by this Bill, shall not be entitled to strike for higher wages, because he will get over that by striking for some other reason. The hon. Gentleman has unwittingly fallen into error when he thinks there is no corresponding provision in Part I., and really what we have done now is to bring the two sides of the matter to an equality. We have made it plain that our Clause does not profess to interfere with these industrial conflicts which on the one side are aimed at raising wages and on the other at lowering wages; but, on the other hand, it is made clear that if the employer desires to deduct the workman's contribution from the workman he must do it by deduction from his wages or from some other sum due from him to the employé, but he is not entitled to deduct from his wages that part of the
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    contribution which the employer ought to pay, and these two provisions are now embodied in Clauses 3 and 4.
    Mr. WORTHINGTON-EVANS: I think my hon. Friend has every excuse for not having discovered, tucked away in the Schedule, the corresponding Clause relating to Part I. that is so much better expressed in Part II. We can congratulate the draftsman that in Part II., at any rate, he has put it in the place where you would expect to find it. Part I. is full of surprises, and it is not in the least astonishing to me that my hon. Friend did not discover that there was a similar Clause in Part I. We had a considerable argument in Commmittee upon an Amendment that I moved to try and make the same rule apply to workmen as was applied to the employer and I recognise that the Government have tried to meet the position because the criticism we then addressed to the words "or otherwise recover," although not recognised as quite just in Committee, upon reconsideration, has apparently impressed the Government to the extent that they have themselves now put down Amendments to show that they mean "or otherwise recover by legal process." We had a long discussion upstairs, and it all amounted to this, that if the employer should recover under ordinary economic conditions, or if the workman could make the employer pay his 2½d., an Act of Parliament was quite unable to affect economic laws, but having once come to that conclusion, the most, it seems to me, that could be done is to limit it, as I think is now done on the Amendments that the Government propose otherwise to "recover by legal process." That point having now been met by the Government, I hope my hon. Friend will not think it necessary to press the Amendment, because I think, after all, the words of the Government are as strong as any words can be, seeing that no words can alter whatever the economic effect of this Clause will be.
    Amendment negatived.
    Amendments made: After the word "of" ["deduct from the wages of"], insert the words "or other payment due to the workman."
    After the word "workman" ["or otherwise recover from the workman"], insert the words "by any legal process."—[Mr. Buxton.]

    CLAUSE 80.—(Statutory Conditions for Receipt of Unemployment Benefit.)
    The statutory conditions for the receipt of unemployment benefit by any workman are—

    (1) that he proves that he has been employed as a workman in an insured trade during each of not less than twenty-six separate calendar weeks in the preceding five years;

    (2) that he has made application for unemployment benefit in the prescribed manner, and proves that since the date of the application he has been continuously unemployed;

    (3) that he is capable of work but unable to obtain suitable employment;

    (4) that he has not exhausted his right to unemployment benefit under this Part of this Act:

    Provided that a workman shall not be deemed to have failed to fulfil the statutory conditions by reason only that he has declined—

    (a) an offer of employment in a situation vacant in consequence of a stoppage of work due to a trade dispute; or

    (b) an offer of employment in the district where he was last ordinarily employed at a rate of wage lower, or on conditions less favourable, than those which he habitually obtained in his usual employment in that district, or would have obtained had he continued to be so employed; or

    (c) an offer of employment in any other district at a rate of wage lower or on conditions less favourable than those generally observed in such district by agreement between associations of employers and of workmen, or, failing any such agreement, than those generally recognised in such districts by good employers.

    The PRESIDENT of the BOARD of TRADE (Mr. Buxton): I beg to move to leave out the word "during" ["during each of not less than"] and to insert instead thereof the word "in."
    Mr. WORTHINGTON-EVANS: I think the Government might explain what they mean by the Amendment.
    The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the BOARD of TRADE (Mr. J. M. Robertson): The word "during" might conceivably be interpreted as applying to
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    each one of the twenty-six weeks. It would carry a wider meaning than is desired. The word "in" excludes an unduly wide interpretation and limits it to the precise stipulation desired to be made.
    Sir A. GRIFFITH-BOSCAWEN: I do not quite gather what the explanation of the Government is. Does it mean in each of the weeks?
    Mr. BUXTON: Yes, it does.
    Sir A. GRIFFITH-BOSCAWEN: What is the difference? What is the object?
    Sir J. SIMON: If one says that a man has been at work during a week, it may be understood to mean that he has been at work from the beginning of the week to the end of the week without interruption, and consequently if he has been unemployed for half a day during the week it may be said he has not been employed during the week. That is not the intention of the Clause, and to that extent the correction is purely verbal. What is necessary is that he should have been at work for some part of each of the twenty-six weeks.
    Amendment agreed to.
    Sir A. GRIFFITH-BOSCAWEN: I beg to move, to leave out the word "five" ["in the preceding five years"] and to insert instead thereof the word "three."
    As the Clause was originally drafted there was no time limit at all. If a man had been in an insured trade, and for any period subsequently had ceased to belong to an insured trade and then got unemployed—he might have been out of the country even—he could come back years after and claim the right to unemployed benefit. It was pointed out that that made the Bill practically unworkable. The Government were prepared to meet us. Of course it is quite true to say if this part of the Bill applied to all trades, it would be perfectly unnecessary to have any time limit, but it does not. It only applies to these two trades and in those trades we want to make the experiment perfectly clear and simple, and surely it cannot be pretended that if a man goes away for a long time he should come back and get unemployed benefit. I proposed that the time limit should be one year. If a man has been away for more than one year, he should lose the right to get benefit. The Government suggested five years, and there was a good deal of discussion in Committee on

    797
    the subject. It was generally thought that three years would be a fair limit, and the Government undertook to consider the matter. I hoped that they would put down an Amendment to limit the time to three years. A man may be an engineer who has paid in for twenty-six weeks. Then he goes away for just under five years, lives in a different place, and then he comes back upon this fund. The period is too long, and it will be difficult to trace these people. It will make the work of the insurance officers difficult, and it will be difficult to keep the funds solvent. I think three years long enough, and I hope the Government will meet us in this matter.
    Mr. HOARE: I beg to second the Amendment. I was under the impression that the Government agreed in the Standing Committee that the period should be three years. I think the general feeling of the Committee was that three years was the proper length of time.
    Mr. BUXTON: My recollection of the matter is that the hon. Gentleman (Sir A. Griffith-Boscawen) moved in the Committee that the period should be one year. It was suggested by others that it should be three years. The Government thought five years would be better, and we put that period in the Bill. In accordance with the promise made in the Committee we have looked carefuly into the matter, and we have come to the conclusion that three years would be too restricted a period, and that it would be unfair to the man himself. If a particular man has paid during the time he has been engaged in an insured trade a certain number of contributions, and for some reason he falls out for a period from the insured trade, I cannot in such a case see what the justice would be if that man forfeited the contributions he had paid and the benefit he would otherwise receive. I admit that carrying it on indefinitely might be somewhat difficult. With reference to the question as between three and five years there is no difficulty from our point of view. The Board of Trade look at the matter from the point of view of justice, and we think that the period of five years is better than three years. I would ask the hon. Gentleman opposite on what grounds he could justify such a rapid forfeiture of the amount which the man himself has actually put into the unemployed fund simply because, for the time being, and for reasons over which perhaps he might not have control, he was for a short time away from the insured
    798
    trade. I think it would be a great hardship from the administrative point of view. We think five years certainly not too long, but if anything, too short.
    Mr. WORTHINGTON-EVANS: There was a discussion on this matter in the Committee upstairs, and the leader of the Labour party was in favour of a shorter period than five years. I find that the hon. Gentleman for Leicester (Mr. Ramsay Macdonald) said:—
    "Twenty-six weeks in five years is an exceedingly small average. I would suggest that, more particularly in the trade with which the hon. Member is associated, the men would be protected by a shorter period than five years."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, Standing Committee B., 2nd November, 1911, col. 66.]
    I call the attention of the House to the fact that that was apparently his view, and I fancy it was on the basis of this that the President of the Board of Trade said that, so far as he was concerned, there was no administrative difficulty in having the period either three or five years. I agree that there is no administrative difficulty from the point of view of the Board of Trade, because they are merely to repay to the trade unions the portion of the benefit they can claim. But the trade unions have to keep track of these men for five years. The administrative difficulty is, it is true, not on the Board of Trade, but on the trade unions. There are hon. Gentlemen in the House more qualified than I am to speak for the trade unions. I would remind them that this point was raised upstairs by one of their members, and I leave it to them to make good their case if they want an Amendment. The President of the Board of Trade seemed to try to raise a question of prejudice by saying that it would be hard that a man's contributions should be forfeited in this way. I wish the right hon. Gentleman had been here during the discussions on Part I. of the Bill. We have to-day been protesting against the forfeiture of contributions paid, not for a short period, but year after year, it may be, for ten years. When that claim is raised by hon. Members on this side of the House the Government disregard it, but now they take refuge under that form of argument in this matter. It seems to me that they are endeavouring to raise prejudice in order to prevent the House from dealing with the matter in the way my hon. Friend proposes.
    Mr. BARNES: I do not think there is any strong feeling on this side of the House as to the difference between three and five

    799
    years. On the whole we favour the shorter term rather than the longer one. [HON. MEMBERS: "NO."] Well, I will put my own view before the House. It is not a matter for the trade unions. So far as the trade unions are concerned, and especially the trade unions of skilled men, it does not matter much to them whether a man comes back after three years or five years. I do not know that it will make much difference either one way or the other. But as the Bill is framed this is to apply not only to the skilled men in the unions, but also to labouring men who might find it difficult to prove to the Board of Trade, or whatever the authority might be, that they had been employed for twenty-six weeks in the trade in the previous five years. For that reason, I should say it is far better to take the shorter period. I was sorry to hear the declaration of the President of the Board of Trade that he intends to stick to five years. I think it would be easier for the man, apart altogether from the trade unions, to prove that he had been working twenty-six weeks in the previous three years instead of in the previous five years.
    Mr. TYSON WILSON: I was present in the Committee when this subject was discussed, and my understanding was that it was the intention of the Government to insert three years. Personally I would sooner strike out five years altogether and leave it unlimited. I would sooner have two years than three. As the hon. Member for Blackfriars has pointed out, the Bill applies to unskilled labour as well as to trade unionists and as regards the unions it would be impossible for them to trace the history of all the members.
    Sir J. SIMON: I do not think that my hon. Friend who has just spoken has quite considered the nature of the alternative suggestions. I understood him to say in one breath that he would prefer a more limited period than five years and in the next breath that sooner than have five years he would have it unlimited. I must ask the House to consider what the real bearing of this matter is. It is the simplest thing in the world. The man in question has paid a certain number of contributions into this fund in order to insure himself against unemployment. Having done that he is in this position under the Bill, that he cannot withdraw more than one week's benefit of 7s. for every five
    800
    weeks which he has paid into the fund. Obviously in pure logic you ought not to deprive a man of his rights as far as they go, however long ago it is since he has contributed. But this is not practicable because we cannot go back say fifty years. That is the only reason why anybody suggests that there should be some limit. The President has said that from the administrative point of view it is just as easy to keep records for five as for three years. The position is not quite what the hon. Member for Colchester describes as regards trade unions. This arrangement does not mean that the trade union member goes straight from the job where he has been turned off and demands his benefit. He begins by handing in his card to the insurance officers and he is entitled to claim either to be paid by the insurance officer or through his trade union. Therefore, it is not a fact that it would necessarily throw upon the trade union the difficulty of keeping this account.
    All that the House has got to do is to decide—since you cannot have an unlimited period and therefore in some cases he must forfeit contributions though logically he ought always to have his own contributions as far as they go—what is the limit of time you are going to impose. I would suggest that when the Board of Trade officers say that they can administer this quite as well during five as during three years back there is no justification for saying to a man, "I do not care whether you have subscribed or have been sick, unless you can show that you worked twenty-six weeks during the three years, you may have subscribed, but this benefit cannot be given." There is no justification for this. The whole question is what is a practical period to lay down over which you can go back? Besides, I would point out to the hon. Member for Blackfriars that I do not think there is any great difference between going back three years and going back five years, and for this reason. He wants to bring in every man who can prove that during the last three years he has worked for six months. If he shows that then it follows that the man has worked six months during the last five years also. So there is no difficulty about that at all. When we make this proposal that he will be entitled to benefit even though he has only worked for a half-year at the insured trade during the last five years that does not mean that for four and a-half years he has been idle. It may mean that part of the

    801
    time he has been sick, or unable to work, or for part of the time he has been working at a trade which is not an insured trade, but is just on the other side of the line. I would suggest to the House that if the administrative difficulty can be got over five years is not an unreasonable time.
    Sir HILDRED CARLILE: I do not think the learned Solicitor-General has dealt quite fairly with the speech of the hon. Member opposite. What the hon. Member said was that he was in favour of two years himself and that he would rather have three years and not five as the learned Solicitor-General said. The whole object of this Clause is to place special benefit within the reach of men engaged in these specified insured trades. But I do not think we could rightly describe men as being engaged in those trades who have been merely engaged for a single month or five weeks every year for five consecutive years. I think five years is an excessive period and I shall be prepared to support my hon. Friend if he proposes to divide.
    Sir A. GRIFFITH-BOSCAWEN: I raised the point, but do not wish to press it.
    Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

    CLAUSE 81.—(Disqualifications for Unemployed Benefit.)
    (1) A workman who loses employment by reason of a stoppage of work which is due to a trade dispute at the factory, workshop, or other premises at which he was employed shall be disqualified for receiving unemployment benefit so long as the stoppage of work continues, except in a case where he has, during the stoppage of work, become bonâ fide employed elsewhere in employment similar to that lost.
    (2) A workman who loses employment through misconduct or who voluntarily leaves his employment without just cause shall be disqualified for receiving unemployment benefit for a period of six weeks from the date when he so lost employment.
    (3) A workman shall be disqualified for receiving unemployment benefit whilst he is an inmate of any prison or any workhouse or other institution supported wholly or partly out of public funds, and whilst he is resident temporarily or permanently outside the United Kingdom.
    Amendments made: In Sub-section (1) leave out the word "loses" and insert instead thereof the words "has lost."
    Leave out the word "is" ["which is due"] and insert instead thereof the word "was."—[Mr. Buxton.]
    Sir A. GRIFFITH-BOSCAWEN: I beg to move in Sub-section (1), after the word "dispute," to insert the words "in which he is personally and directly concerned."
    This deals with a matter which is really of great importance, the case of men losing their right to unemployed benefit if their unemployment is due to trade disputes. We are all agreed on the general principle that if unemployment is due to trade disputes the men out of work will not be entitled to the benefit, but the question arises whether the man is out of work in consequence of a dispute in which he is personally concerned or interested, because there may be trade disputes which put people out of work where it is not their fault. For instance, there may be a dispute in one trade which puts men out of work in another trade altogether. I admit that that is met now by an Amendment in Committee that the trade dispute must have been at the factory where the man is employed. Then there may be a factory with a great many different departments, and a strike of men in one department may put men out of work in another department. That is not met as the Bill stands now, but as far as I can see the Government have an Amendment coming up later on which possibly will deal with that point. There is yet a further case. Even in the same factory and in the same branch of the factory there may be a case where the union men strike and the non-union men do not strike, yet in consequence of the strike of union men the non-union men are out of work. Would it be fair that these men who are put out of work, not by their own action, not by striking at all, but simply because other people in the same branch of the factory have struck, and who, further, have no direct or personal concern in the strike—is it fair that those men should not receive unemployment benefit? The question is, how are we to get for these workmen this unemployment benefit. A good many suggestions have been made, and a good many were made in the Standing Committee, with the view of excluding from this disability people who suffer in consequence of the action of others. I do not say that the form of words which I have ventured

    803
    to put forward is the best, but I think it covers all the three points I have mentioned. The effect of these words is that only the people who actually strike—I am taking the case of a strike and not of a lock-out, which will have to be dealt with—would be disqualified from getting unemployment benefit, and not those who take no part in the strike, and who suffer in consequence of the action of those who do strike. The Government may say that the administrative difficulties of this proposal may be great. I am anxious to hear what the view of the Government is; at the same time, I am perfectly certain the principle I have enunciated is a fair principle, and I submit the Amendment as it stands on the paper.
    Mr. BIGLAND: I beg to second the Amendment.
    Sir J. SIMON: As the hon. Gentleman has stated, this matter was much discussed in Grand Committee, and indeed the Bill as it passed the Second Reading contained words not very dissimilar from the words which the hon. Gentleman now proposes to reinsert. The Bill passed the Second Reading and went up to Grand Committee, and it laid down that a workman who loses his employment by reason of a trade dispute involving a strike or lockout to which he is directly a party shall be disqualified. I think so far as the language which the hon. Gentleman now uses is concerned, it is the same, and he wishes to add it to the test which is in the amended Bill.
    Sir A. GRIFFITH-BOSCAWEN: My Amendment applies to those who do not take part in the strike, but who are affected in consequence of the action of the others who enter upon a strike.
    Sir J. SIMON: I have not the least desire to misrepresent the hon. Gentleman, and I agree with him that this is a serious and difficult question. What I want to have regard to is this: We have endeavoured to secure two objects on which I think the House as a whole will be agreed. In the first place, we must secure that this fund shall be used to relieve people who are out of employment owing to the inevitable fluctuations of trade as distinguished from relieving people who are out of employment in connection with some industrial dispute. We must have a test which can be quickly and certainly applied. Let the House consider for a
    804
    moment what is the case to which the test is to be applied. A man is out of work; his wages have suddenly ceased; he presents himself to the insurance officer, and says, "Give me 7s. a week." That is not the sort of case in connection with which we want to start a lengthy and probably very difficult investigation into the question as to whether the workman, who is undoubtedly out in connection with a trade dispute, is rightly described as a worker who is out by reason of that trade dispute in which he is directly concerned. That is a question which I will not say is insoluble, because it has been in the courts of law, but it is one of the worst questions which a court of law has to solve. It is not a question which can be tested with certainty by insurance officers, and we desire that when a man asks for 7s. a week the test should be one which can be applied swiftly and with certainty.
    It was for that reason that I proposed on behalf of the Government the perfectly simple test of whether or not a man is employed in the factory where a trade dispute has arisen. The House will see that we propose later on a modification of it in order to provide for the hard case of a man who is employed in connection with some factory, though he is engaged in a branch of labour which is usually carried on in a separate place. The words of the hon. Gentleman necessarily revive a very doubtful and very difficult inquiry, whereas the proposal of the Government, put forward with the general assent of the Committee, is that we shall apply a simple test about which there can hardly be any dispute. May I point out to the House two reasons why the test in the Bill is likely to be the right test. First of all, you do not want a test which is capable of being manipulated either by the trade union leaders on the one hand, or by the secretary of the employers federation on the other. If you say that everybody who is not directly concerned in a strike is to have unemployment benefit then is it obviously to the interests of the secretary of the trade union to pick and choose a few among the people in the works to strike, so that it would have the result of bringing the works to a standstill. He could select a particular kind of labour which would bring to a stop the motive power of the factory, and he might thereby, if he manages the affair adroitly, throw upon the unemployment fund a body of workmen who loudly assert that they are not directly concerned in the strike, but who would certainly have joined the strike

    805
    if it had not been made to their advantage not to do so. Secondly, the way in which an employer could prevent any class of workers from getting unemployment benefit, and the way to bring extra pressure to bear, would be by serving a lockout notice on the lot, and so deprive them of benefit which they might otherwise get. I submit to the House that it is not desirable that we should insert into this Bill words which would put it in the power of one side or the other so to manipulate their notices in trade disputes that a larger number of a smaller number of people might come out. If you do, you are really taking upon yourselves the duty which the trade unions themselves ought to discharge. If there is a duty which the trade unions discharge most satisfactorily it is that of providing for their men when they find themselves turned out in a trade dispute. I have taken some trouble to ascertain what is the practice of trade unions in this regard. One of the hon. Gentlemen on the Labour Benches who has a great knowledge of the boiler makers' and shipwrights' trade informs me that in a dispute the men who are not themselves striking, but are affected by the strike, are entitled to come on the union funds. I think, also, that exactly the contrary practice obtains in a number of other trades. [An HON. MEMBER: "No."] I have not said so without some careful inquiry. I find as a matter of fact that in at least three very considerable trade unions the result is exactly the other way. In the Amalgamated Society of Engineers and the Society of Boilermakers and the Gasworkers and General Labourers Union, they do not regard the men as entitled to unemployment benefits, but on the contrary you give them what is properly strike pay, even though they are not directly concerned in the strike. That is not at all unreasonable for this reason. There are certain things which bind together men working in the same factories. They have at least these matters in common, that they are all working for and paid by the one employer, and they are working side by side in the same place.
    If you introduce into this Bill a provision which will throw on our unemployment fund every workman who contends that he is not himself directly concerned or directly involved in the strike, the result is, I suggest to the House, that we are going to use the money which is really being subscribed for unemployment and fluctuations of trade for the sustaining of a number of
    806
    persons who quite properly but none the less secretly sympathise with the strike, and who would undoubtedly have taken part in the strike if such an Amendment as this did not make it difficult to get on the other side of the line. Does any man in the House say that an insurance officer sitting behind a desk and having to deal with hundreds of cases of people who come and say, "There is my card, give me the 7s.," is there anyone to say that such a person is really in a position to judge as to each man whether he is or is not a person who satisfies the conditions my hon. Friend proposes. I think the Government will be acquitted of any desire not to act fairly by those for whose benefit this Bill is provided, but we must have some regard to the protection of our fund. We suggest that this is rather the business of the trade unions, who have admirably performed it, to provide for cases which will be on the border line like this. We suggest that we have really made in the circumstances a proper provision. Any line that you could draw would produce hard cases; both my right hon. Friend and myself spent a good deal of time in trying to find the right line. The reason why we recommend the line drawn in the Bill is because it is extremely easy to apply. It may be that it lets in people who should be out and puts out people who should be in but it is a practical line which is not capable of being manipulated by one side or the other in a trade disputes. It is a line which involves a swift and easy decision, and with the Amendment which my right hon. Friend proposes it is a line which will do substantial justice.
    10.0 P.M.
    Mr. W. THORNE: This Clause to me is one of the most important in the Bill, especially in regard to the general labourers, because it appears to me that unless there is a wider definition than that already in the Bill it will simply mean that the ordinary general labourer will get very little benefit by the Bill. In my own trade union when a man contributes he is entitled to either strike or lockout pay in connection with the dispute over which he has got no control. We have lock-out benefit of 12s. 6d. per week, and when a strike takes place, either with the engineers or boilermakers or anywhere else where the men have got absolutely no voice in the matter, then according to the rules the men are paid 10s. per week for a certain number of weeks.
    Sir J. SIMON: May I ask whether or not there is any unemployment benefit.
    Mr. W. THORNE: No, we have got no out-of-work benefits at all. This particular Clause would affect labourers more than anyone else, because if there is a strike or lock-out in many of the trade unions the skilled artisans, although they are not in a position to get strike benefit, can fall back upon what they call unemployed benefits and are in a position to get something. My hon. Friend, who is District Secretary for Lancashire, will admit that in our organisation I should say 90 per cent. of the money that we have paid has been paid in cases where the members had no control in any shape or form as to the strike. When there is a strike in the engineering, or boilermaking, or building trade, the general labourers, who have no voice in it, are thrown out of work. If he is not in a position to get some relief in regard to this particular Clause then it appears that he is paying money into an insurance scheme for which he is going to get no benefit. The Amendment moved opposite may not give us all we ask, and I am not quite sure if there is an Amendment which will give us what we want. The position I take up is that when a man is thrown out of work in a dispute over which he has no control that that individual or number of individuals should be in the position to either go to the Labour Exchange and register as being out of work or to the trade unions and get out of work pay.
    Mr. CLYNES: I think after the speech we have heard from the hon. Gentleman on the Front Bench that the House will consider that it is a practical difficulty that the Government finds it impossible to overcome. Therefore I want to consider whether that practical difficulty can be both faced and met. May I remind the House that the right hon. Gentleman was quite mistaken as to the meaning of the rules of the Gas Workers and General Labourers Union. Further I would ask the House to recollect that eighty per cent. of the members of such unions are not gas workers at all but general labourers employed in the various industries. The rules of that union are quite consistent with the Amendment now before us, and I am strongly disposed to support the Amendment which will if carried meet fully the case of the hon. Member for Dundee (Mr. Wilkie). Should this Amendment not be carried there will be good reason to accept the
    808
    second best and support his Amendment. The reason why the rules of such a union as the Gas Workers and General Labourers Union provides a stoppage benefit for labourers situated in the circumstances recited by my hon. Friend is that these labourers are frequently stopped because of quarrels in which they have no part whatever. They are not the cause of the dispute; they cannot effect a settlement of it. They are merely victims of quarrels between the skilled tradesmen and the employers of labour. The number of recent instances is so great that much time could be taken up if one entered into them. I have had personal experience of very many. Take a big engineering shop. There is a quarrel between the iron-founders or the engineers and the employers. The men are demanding, say, an extra 2s. a week, or some improvement in their conditions. The labourers are not consulted. They are not in any sense as strong for the purposes of attack as are the skilled men. They merely cease work because the others have ceased work. They gain nothing by the dispute, and they are in no sense the cause of it. In the ordinary sense of the term they are unemployed through no fault of their own. The right hon. Gentleman says, whilst that may be in itself a good reason for giving them unemployment benefit, how is a commissioner or any officer acting under this Bill to discover who is entitled to pay and who is not. He has pictured a man going up with his card and saying, "I want seven shillings." If necessary I think the difficulty could be overcome by seeing that a man had two cards, or, if not two cards, that he had one card and that the right one.
    This Bill imposes on the employers a good many obligations which, according to their own statement, will involve them in certain expense. There will be considerable bookkeeping, the arranging of accounts, stamping by one process or another, the receipt of money and its transference. All these processes will involve some cost upon the employers. Will it be too much to insert in some part of the Bill words imposing upon the employers the additional duty of giving to the locked-out labourer in the case of a stoppage due to a dispute in which he was a non-combatant, a card certifying that he was in a state of enforced idleness—I will not try to describe what the exact terms ought to be, but a card signifying that he was not on strike in the ordinary sense as one directly involved in a quarrel with

    809
    his employer in which he might benefit. If that is the only difficulty it could be overcome in that way. I urge some such course on the Government. I know personally from some twenty years' experience of dealing with labourers' organisations that there are labourers engaged steadily year by year in occupations that find them regular work, and I know men of my own personal acquaintance who have never been out of work except on the occasions when they have been thrown into a state of idleness through disputes in which they were not directly concerned. Cases where labourers are stopped for some reason other than their own fault are more numerous than those where the labourers cause their own stoppage. Inasmuch as you impose on the labourer this compulsory payment for unemployment, and inasmuch as many labourers are never unemployed, except when they are drawn into disputes over which they have no control, I submit that the practical difficulties ought to be and could be overcome with some such course as I have suggested.
    Sir A. MARKHAM: As one connected with the engineering trade, I think that another view ought to be put before the House. A great many disputes, particularly in the engineering trade, are due to sectional disputes between the men themselves. I have never met a man who on principle objected to belonging to a trade union, but I have met with plenty of men who were willing to share any benefits that might be secured. Under this Amendment a non-union man, while his fellow-workmen were out on strike, would be entitled to get the advantage of any rise of wages that the union men were able to get, and at the same time, while the other men were fighting, rightly or wrongly, he would get payments under this Bill. That is not a fair position in which to put the non-union man, and I do not think the Amendment ought to be accepted.
    Mr. BUXTON: This is a very difficult point. Wherever you draw the line, there is bound to be a certain amount of hardship on one side or the other. What we have had to consider in reference to this matter is that there is a fund for unemployment. The principle of that fund is that it is provided for unemployment arising from depression in trade rather than from disputes. I think that everyone would desire that that should be the
    810
    general principle of the fund. It is essential that there should be some clear line of demarcation before a dispute takes place. Nothing could be more fatal than that at the time of a dispute it should be necessary for the insurance officer to decide whether a man should or should not come on the fund. It is very important that that should be decided beforehand. The objection that we take to the Amendment is that it would leave so difficult a question open for decision that as a matter of administration it would be impossible to carry it out. I also want to emphasize in respect to the particular words before the House that the only persons who will be excluded from the benefits will be the persons, the workmen, who are personally and directly concerned. The speech of my hon. Friend who spoke just now is really conclusive from the trade union point of view. If this Amendment is accepted the result will be that the non-unionist will receive the benefit, and the trade unionist will be excluded. That surely would be neither fair nor advantageous to our friends below the Gangway. So far as these particular words are concerned, it would be a very serious blow to trade unionism. We shall, on the Amendment of the hon. Gentleman the Member for Dundee (Mr. Wilkie) have to discuss a somwhat different point, which endeavours, I think, to put the matter on a more watertight basis, at all events. I should like to have the opportunity of discussing that on its merits. I am quite clear of this: that these particular words will be quite impossible of acceptance.
    Mr. CLYNES: May I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he would not consider a man was directly concerned in a dispute, whether in a trade union or not, if the question of his wages or working conditions was involved in this matter?
    Mr. BUXTON: That is a question that entirely disposes of the Amendment of the hon. Gentleman, but it is one that I should be very sorry to have to answer straight away. I should also be very sorry if our insurance officer had to answer questions of that sort at the time of a dispute.
    Sir A. GRIFFITH-BOSCAWEN: I think the Debate has shown that the principle I proposed to lay down is a fair one. At the same time I fully recognise the practical difficulties of carrying it out that have been put forward by the Solicitor-General and the President of the Board of Trade. I dare say the same object may

    811
    be accomplished in some other way, and therefore I do not wish to press this Amendment. It will be open, no doubt, to the hon. Gentleman the Member for Dundee to move his Amendment, and we can further consider the question upon that, and upon the Amendment of the right hon. Gentleman.
    Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
    Mr. WILKIE: I beg to move, in Sub-section (1) after the word "dispute" ["dispute at the factory"] to insert the words "between his trade or grade and the employer." I want in handling this question to say, as the Members of the Government are well aware, this question has been very considerably discussed. I want right hon. Gentlemen to clearly understand——
    Mr. MITCHELL-THOMSON: On a point of Order, and for the convenience of the House, I want to ask whether this Amendment, which raises rather a narrower point than the last ought not to come as the Government Amendment of which they have given notice? That contains the definition of what a trade union dispute is.
    Mr. WILKIE: I should like to say that my Amendment is a much wider Amendment. Those of us who are practical men dealing with this question as our business know all about it.
    Mr. SPEAKER: I do not think the interpretation of the hon. Member's Amendment is quite on the same lines as the definition in the proposed addition by the Government. The object of the hon. Member is not to confine the words "Trade dispute," but to say that if a trade dispute of a particular kind took place a particular thing would happen.
    Mr. WILKIE: The words of my Amendment would ensure that the Government's proposal carried out the present practice. An ounce of practice is worth a ton of theory. Let me give a concrete case. In 1908 a dispute took place on the North-East coast between the employers and the shipwrights. That dispute was extended by the employers, and the federated employers in the shipbuilding trade exercised what may be called a sympathetic lock-out. They locked out the same class of men on the Clyde, Humber, and elsewhere because they were in dispute with that particular class of men. They paid
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    off the boilermakers, rivetters, and what are generally known as the "black squad," with whom they had then no dispute. What happened in this case? All the men in this dispute received strike pay from their own unions and the Trades Unions General Federation. The members of the Boilermakers' Society received no dispute pay, but simply got assistance from their own society as unemployed benefit. Last year the very opposite took place. Two disputes occurred, one on the Tyne and the other on the Clyde among the boilermakers, and the employers locked all these men out right round the federated area. The boilermakers who were locked out got their strike and dispute benefit, and those in the other trades got nothing but their unemployed benefits. The custom is clearly defined, and it can be applied to every industry, and there is no difficulty. We have never complained of being locked out, but I hope those hon. Members here and elsewhere who use anathema against us will not forget that we have had a lesson from the other side. The Solicitor-General, with his usual lucidity, put a hypothetical case of a few men being able to cause a dispute. If the hon. and learned Gentleman had had any practical experience of the working of these different trades, he would know that there could not be any such possibility. What difference does it make to the man himself whether he is thrown out of employment through shortness of work, or because of a stoppage of work in another trade alongside of him?
    It is not correct to say that by this proposal you are holding the balance between capital and labour. You practically lay down that if there is a dispute in a shipyard with one of the trades, and they come out and the other men are gradually paid off, they are not going to get the unemployment benefit they have paid for, although they are not entitled to dispute benefit. In our organisation we pay 3d. per week, for which we have got for over a quarter of a century 9s. per week unemployment benefit for the first ten of twenty weeks. We are now going to have 2½d. per week deducted from our wages, and when we are the victims of a strike in connection with another trade we are not going to get the benefits we have paid for. I want the House to get to the bed-rock of this question. What I assert is that the Clause as it stands will cause trouble, strikes, and disputes. The Amendment which has been suggested does not meet the case at all. The Solicitor-General has referred to the

    813
    question of a separate factory. I think a ship would be considered a separate factory. In the case of a dispute the other men who are paid off are the victims of that dispute. As the hon. Member for Manchester has stated, the greatest victim in all these cases is the labourer to the skilled worker. If you are going to take 2½d. per week from, these men, when their representatives have already told you they are more often the victims of other disputes than their own, surely they have a good case for asking they shall receive the benefit for which they are paying. The hon. Gentleman has told us that while our organisation had it clearly defined, some others called it by other names. It does not matter.
    "A rose by any other name would smell as sweet."
    It is all the same to the workman if when he is thrown idle he gets the support for which he has paid. I do think we have a good case for asking the Government to put in words that will carry out the present practice in the interests of the workmen, of peace and goodwill between them and the employers, and of the harmonious working of those scheduled industries with which you are going to make the trial. I think I have shown clearly that we are not wanting anything from the State or the employer. When we are in a dispute we will pay our own dispute benefit. I am glad to say we have an agreement with the employers, and we are continually meeting them in conferences. Thus we know each other better, and I hope we shall have less trouble in the future than in the past. Therefore, I hope the Government will assist us in our peaceful measures, and give the men the benefits for which they are being charged.
    Mr. BARNES: I beg to second the Amendment. We attach very great importance to this Amendment. The Clause imposes a disqualification on a man claiming unemployment benefit in regard to a trade dispute or lock-out. The Bill, as originally framed, provided that he should be disqualified if he was directly or indirectly concerned in a dispute. That, of course, might apply to a man coming out in a dispute in any part of the country, because he might be directly or indirectly concerned in the dispute, although the dispute happened in another part of the country. The Clause, as it is now in the Bill, and which we are seeking to amend, provides that the man shall be concerned in a dispute in the factory in which he is employed. That improves the
    814
    Bill, limiting the disqualification in a geographical sense, and we are glad that the Bill has been in one sense amended so far, but the Amendment of my hon. Friend seeks still further to limit the disqualification. We think it is altogether wrong that a man employed in a factory in which a dispute arises should be disqualified from receiving his benefit under this Bill if he has had no act or part in bringing about that dispute. My hon. Friend the Member for North-East Manchester has already cited the case of the labourers. We feel very strongly in regard to them. They are the men who suffer most from industrial disputes and yet have least to do with bringing them about. Although the Bill, as now framed, is better than the original draft, inasmuch as it is limited to factories, I want to remind hon. Gentlemen that the word "factory" now has a very wide meaning, and the tendency is that it should have a still wider meaning. There are factories in this country which employ upwards of 20,000 men and thus the word "factory," although apparently limited, covers quite a little community. In the case of a strike at such a factory as Platts, at Oldham, I have known hundreds of labouring men put out through a dispute with the moulders or engineers or some other skilled class: they have been out of work for months because of a dispute in which they have no part. The same observations apply to disputes which have occurred on the north-east coast. Two years ago thousands of labouring men belonging to a union which paid no unemployed benefit were thrown out under similar circumstances, and I know that many of them were brought to the brink of starvation because of a dispute in which they had no concern and no voice in bringing it about.
    I appeal to the Government and to hon. Gentlemen opposite who were sympathetically inclined with regard to this matter when it was discussed upstairs. The right hon. Gentleman who now leads the party opposite, when the point was under debate upstairs, expressed himself as extremely favourably disposed towards putting something in the Bill which would prevent the evils I have described. If the Government cannot accept these words I hope that, at all events, they will accept some form of words which will absolutely prevent men belonging to the labouring class who are involved in these disputes being made to suffer. I hope the House will see that some words are put into this Clause which will prevent the position of

    815
    these men in the future being worsened, as it has been in times gone by, by disputes which they themselves do not cause and which, even if successful so far as their fellow workmen are concerned, are of no benefit to them when they return to work.
    Mr. BUXTON: I can assure my hon. Friends we have given this matter both general and particular consideration with a view, as far as possible, of meeting the wishes they have expressed. It is quite certain that whatever line is drawn in this matter there will be anomalies on one side or the other. My hon. and learned Friend laid down the general position which the Government are bound to take with regard to the matter as a whole. In the first place the fund is to be applied to unemployment due to depression of trade rather than to trade disputes. Secondly, as we are dealing with a fund contributed to by employers, workmen, and the State, we are bound to steer an even keel, and not to take any steps which would tend towards the extension of trade disputes. Thirdly, we are all agreed upon this, that it is essential that at the time of a strike the insurance officer and the men themselves should know for a certainty whether they are going to receive benefit or not. I have carefully examined the words of my hon. Friend, and am afraid that if we accept them we should not be able to carry out any of these three propositions. He proposes to add the words, "between his trade or grade and the employer," that is to say, any man in that trade or grade which is having a dispute should not receive the benefit, and that anyone outside that trade or grade should be entitled to draw benefit from the Insurance Fund. That really raises the difficulty which met us in considering the Amendment of the hon. Gentleman opposite, namely, the difficulty of definition. I doubt if the hon. Member for Dundee (Mr. Wilkie), or the hon. Member for the Black-friars Division (Mr. Barnes), if they were asked to sit down and draw a distinction between the various grades and trades which exist in the industries of the country, could do so.
    Mr. WILKIE: I have another Amendment down providing that any difference shall be referred to the referees.
    Mr. BUXTON: My hon. Friend has shown that he could not respond to my
    816
    appeal by saying that the matter should be left to an umpire if a difference arose. That is just the point. I do not want differences to arise. We think that under our Amendment such differences will be avoided. The hon. Gentleman proposes that this difficult question shall be left to the arbitrament of an umpire. That will take time. The insurance officer will not know what to do, and the men will not be able to receive benefits until the umpire has decided this difficult question. I think my hon. Friend will acknowledge from his own experience, which has been extensive in this matter, that his trade union has had the most constant disputes in almost every grade as to what was the grade he was representing in this House. I believe it would be impossible for anybody to distinguish between trades and grades. It would be a prolific field for the difficulties we desire to avoid. The State and this fund ought to be kept as far as possible from putting pressure on one side or the other. My hon. Friend says that the practice of his trade union is that there is a distinction drawn between those who are out of employment through no fault of their own and those who are out of employment through their own direct action. That really may be the case in those trade unions. My learned Friend referred to some other trade unions. In the case of the Amalgamated Society of Engineers it is specifically stated that members compelled to cease work owing to disputes or causes over which they have no control will be entitled to strike benefit, and the same is the case with the United Society of Boilermakers.
    Where such members working in those yards where there is a dispute are thrown out of employment thereby such members shall receive the benefit of this section.
    Then there is the question of the Federation of Engineers and Boilermakers, and the like. What would happen in the event of a strike in one trade of that federation? According to our proposal the other men would not be receiving benefit under the Act, but under the hon. Member's proposal the other men, who were at the time of the dispute subscribing members to the federation which was at war with the employer would be receiving benefit from the State, which would assist them very materially. This is almost a sufficient answer to my hon. Friend. If he would look at it from a practical point of view in view of the difficulty of definition, the

    817
    fact that it would really be a serious interference between one party and the other, the fact that we want this money applied in the direction indicated, and the fact that we have endeavoured as far as possible to meet this particular grievance, I hope the Amendment will not be pressed. The hon. Member (Mr. Barnes) made an appeal that if these words would not effect what we have in mind we might find other words. We have done our very best to endeavour to find other words. I am still quite willing to consider any further proposals the hon. Member may make. I am quite certain his Amendment would not meet the case. I hope the House will realise that we have done our very best to meet the very great difficulty caused in this particular case.
    Mr. BIGLAND: Now that we have heard the explanation of the Government and the further Amendment proposed by the hon. Member (Mr. Wilkie), it comes to this, that the hon. Member is right. This Schedule of 2½d. plus 2½d. for the employer is far too large for the unemployment simply to be when slackness of trade comes on and men are dismissed. The case was very clearly stated by the hon. Member. If, in his opinion, the payment of 3d. a week entitled a man to the provisions that he mentioned, the actuarial valuations here are altogether too high, and I am inclined to think the suggestion of the hon. Member opposite that it would be possible for an employer to give cards to the men who were not interested in the dispute is a solution of the question. There is no doubt that the men in many factories are high-priced men, and I have a great deal of sympathy with what has been said, because the number of labourers employed in these large engineering and shipbuilding yards is enormous. The labourer has absolutely no voice in the dispute. He does not gain any benefit when the other men get arise through the strike they have organised, and it should be possible, if this is going to be an unemployment benefit at all, that these men who have no interest in the dispute, and will get no benefit out of it, should receive unemployment benefit. I do not like to push the matter to a Division, but I feel it goes to the very root of the whole Section as to whether men who are thrown out of employment without being consulted or without knowing what the dispute is about should receive the benefit. If that man is thrown out of employment without being consulted and without having a vote
    818
    in regard to the dispute, surely he ought to have some benefit. If the hon. Member for Dundee (Mr. Wilkie) is correct in saying that a union is able for 3d. a week to give such large unemployment benefit as he indicated, surely out of the amount the Government are going to charge—almost double the amount charged by the trade unions—there ought to be some benefit paid to the men who are not interested in any way in the disputed question. I hope some way will be found to meet that point.
    Mr. CHARLES DUNCAN: I think the point at present before the House is one of vital importance, and all the more to the unskilled men than to the skilled men, because all experience teaches me that so far as the skilled men are concerned they are always well able to look after themselves. I have had some little experience in connection with this particular question. I happen to be connected with a union that takes in all kinds of labourers and unskilled workers. In that union there are two separate contributions. There is 3d. a week, which covers the labourer for strikes and lock-outs, and another contribution of 3d. a week which covers his unemployed benefit separate and apart from trade disputes. If my experience is worth anything at all in this matter—it extends over a period of at least thirteen years—it goes to show that with the two threepences in the union I am connected with we have been able to cover not only unemployment, but also strikes and lock-outs, and we have had a fairly good margin left as well. It is obvious from these facts that the amount to be paid under the unemployment section of the Bill will not only cover unemployment, but also the expenditure for disputes and lock-outs as well. That is to say, that the 6d. a week to be contributed by the employer, the workman, and the State will cover disputes, lock-outs, and unemployment. I think it will be seen from this that, so far as the unemployment fund is concerned, there is going to be a tremendous fund piled up as years go by. That is to say, the contribution is very much higher than the need will demand. It seems to me that the Clause remains exceedingly wide. After all, what is a factory? Some years ago I worked at Lord Armstrong's place in Newcastle, where they build warships and have blast furnaces. The factory extends two and a half miles up the river Tyne. It employs

    819
    all sections and kinds of men. It seems to me that if there was a dispute at one end of the factory, and the factory was laid idle, none of the men employed by that firm, numbering between 15,000 and 16,000, would be entitled to benefit under this Clause, as I understand it.
    Mr. BUXTON: That is covered by the Government Amendment.
    Mr. C. DUNCAN: I cannot see that at all. Some time ago there was a dispute on the Clyde. There was what was called a lock-out by the shipbuilders. The dispute between the employers and the men on the Clyde was not settled, and in order to bring it to a settlement the employers locked out the men not only on the Clyde but on the Weir and the Tees, and in my own Constituency at Barrow-in-Furness.
    The whole dispute affected about 400 men, yet several thousands of men were thrown out of employment, men who had kept their agreements with their employers and had no dispute with them whatever. Yet these men who were drawn into this dispute in which they had no concern and took no part and were compelled for months to walk the streets of their respective towns, would receive no benefit under this Clause. Obviously great injustice will be wrought if this form of words is adhered to. I hope that the Government will consider the matter from that point of view. The real test of the matter is this: where you have a number of men concerned in a dispute, is there an element of gain in it? Where a number of men are involved, whether it is a dispute, a strike, or a lock-out, if they do not stand to gain as a result of the dispute they should be entitled to receive benefit from the unemployed fund. If the matter is examined from that point of view it seems to open a way out of the difficulty as argued here to-night.
    11. 0 P.M.
    Sir A. MARKHAM: When this Bill was introduced it was for the purpose of dealing with periods of unemployment. What we are now asked to do is to say that the State and the employers should subsidise the men in lock-outs in trade disputes. [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] You are going to take money for them from the employers and the State. That is the effect of it. There is no justification for this Clause as it stands in the speech of the last speaker. He told the House that his trade union made the
    820
    men pay 3d. per week lock-out contribution and 2d. per week unemployment contribution. His trade union will be much better off under the proposal of the Government than it is at the present moment. The members still continue to pay 3d. per week lock-out contribution, and the total contributions of 5½d per week will give them not only lock-out benefit but unemployment benefit on a much higher scale than anything which they have yet enjoyed. The hon. Member quoted the case of the Clyde in connection with the combinations of employers and trade unions. I may point out that it follows as a natural corollary that where men enter into a combination they must expect to be met by one, and therefore when he says that the men locked out were not concerned in the dispute it may be that in the case in question the union may have subsidised the particular strike. I do not think that the House should be asked, when this is after all a Bill dealing with periods of unemployment, to bring trade disputes into this question. I have every sympathy with the labourers. The aristocracy of labour have, however, very little regard for the unskilled labourer, and those distinctions do obtain among workmen. I have great sympathy with the unskilled labourers who do the sweeping up and the dirty work for the skilled worker. This Bill deals only with cases arising during periods of bad trade. If a workman is deprived of his wage for a week he will get the additional benefits which the society can give at the present time. If by any Amendment the Bill widens the application of the funds in connection with trade disputes it will be impossible to maintain that any Government Department could work the measure at all. We have the "down-tools" policy of Tom Mann, the universal strike as against sectional strikes, but that policy is supported only by a very small section, and it is not supported by the Labour party, I believe. Yet sectional strikes are far harder for such organisations as that of the hon. Member for West Ham, and upon unfortunate labourers and others who are affected by these disputes. The House will be well advised if it refuses to accept an Amendment which will only increase the difficulties connected with strikes.
    Mr. LANSBURY: The part of the Bill which is now under consideration is not merely to provide against unemployment when trade is bad, but, I take it, against all kinds of unemployment. The Solicitor-

    821
    General and the President of the Board of Trade have apparently either forgotten or have not listened to the arguments which have been brought forward. It is said that it is very difficult to discover where a dispute begins with a certain section of men, and where it leaves off. Will anyone in this House say that if there is a dispute between engineers and their employers there is any difficulty in determining whether the labourers are involved or not, or whether the plumbers who are employed by the same firm are involved or not? The thing is perfectly easy if we want to tackle it. You are for the first time saying that the man who earns very low wages shall pay 2½d. a week plus something else, and you say you are not able to differentiate him from the skilled workmen who have either some increase of pay or a decrease of hours. I have heard the hon. and learned Gentlemen on the Front Bench, but they have got out of bigger difficulties than this. It does not seem to be too difficult, and it appears to me that they are afraid of indirectly helping the men who are involved in the dispute. If you are not, you could find some form of words. You are the legal experts, and I think if you really wanted to help us out of the difficulty it ought to be quite possible. I do suggest that no one who has spoken against the Amendment has met our point, and that is that it is the labourer who by no stretch of imagination can direct the strike in any way, who has to pay the piper. My hon. Friends the Members for Manchester, West Ham, and Barrow can give you cases of thousands of men who have been brought not merely to starvation but to the workhouse and the poor-law to be supported in times of lock-outs and strikes without being in any way responsible. With regard to what is known as the sympathetic strike, the hon. Baronet and other hon. Members who are opposed to them must bear in mind that it is the great capitalist class who have taught the worker the benefits of combination. When you have the great shipping industry locking out indiscriminately thousands of men because of a sectional dispute you have taught us to understand that what is good enough for combined capital is equally good enough for combined labour.
    Sir A. GRIFFITH-BOSCAWEN: This is no doubt a very difficult question, and probably the most difficult in the Bill. On the one hand, there is the danger that has been mentioned that this provision, if it
    822
    is carried, may be made use of by means of sectional strikes to obtain practical subsidies by the unemployment part of the Bill. I am quite aware that the Solicitor-General has pointed out that in the public correspondence between the Board of Trade and certain employers they were very much afraid of a provision of this sort for that reason. On the other hand, it is perfectly true to say that there are many employers, some of whom are in this House, and one of whom has already spoken to-night, who do not hold that difficult, but who do feel very strongly that it is most unjust where a man is not concerned in a strike himself, and where he is put out of work because another grade strikes; that that individual should lose the benefit of this fund to which he has been a contributor, it may be for several years. I think that principle is so strong that the House ought to fully consider it. I do not see how you can justify it. My hon. Friend the Member for Birkenhead (Mr. Bigland) told me of the shipbuilding trade where there is a quarrel between we will say the rivetters or some other grade which results in all the labourers in the yard being turned out of work. It is perfectly right and proper, I think we should all agree, that the rivetters as they choose to dispute with the masters, should not get the benefit of the unemployment fund.
    Sir A. MARKHAM: All those sectional disputes that took place on the North-East Coast have been on the demarcation of work. [HON. MEMBERS: "Not at all."]
    Sir A. GRIFFITH-BOSCAWEN: Perhaps the hon. Member will allow me to continue the case I was putting. I take the rivetters. I could have taken any other grade. They quarrel with their employers. We agree that they should not get the benefit of the unemployment fund. Through their action they put out of work every labourer employed in the yard. These men may have been contributing to the unemployed fund for five years. Why on earth should they not get the benefit? To my mind the principle is perfectly clear. I admit the practical difficulty to some extent, and that in certain trades a danger may be feared of the funds being used for the purpose of sectional strikes. But I feel that we must follow the broad principle and say that nobody shall be penalised by such action as has been described.
    Sir J. SIMON: What we are asked now to do is to introduce a provision that every workman shall be entitled to come upon the unemployment fund so long as the trade dispute, though it is in his own factory, is not between his trade or grade and the employer. May I point out the difficulty. Members of the Labour party will agree that it is not true to say that a trade union consists in all cases of a single grade. A trade union often consists of a variety of grades. What the House is really asked to do is to provide that, if a trade union has a dispute with an employer because of the conditions of one particular grade connected with the union, when the funds of that union are being used to fight the employer, every member of the union who is not in that particular grade shall come on unemployment benefit. That is not fair. That is using money subscribed for unemployment purposes in effect for financing a strike.
    Mr. WILKIE: That is not my Amendment.
    Sir J. SIMON: That certainly is the result of the Amendment. The hon. Member desires to provide that everybody shall be entitled to come on the unemployment fund even though he is a member of the very trade union which is conducting the dispute, and even if he is employed in the very factory where the dispute is taking place, so long as the dispute is not between his trade or grade and the employer. It follows from that, as clearly as anything can follow from another thing, that the result will be that a great number of people who belong to this particular trade union and are engaged by this particular employer will be entitled under this Amendment to come on the unemployment fund. In this matter we desire to do nothing but what is fair to both parties. Take the reverse case. If you say that a man is to be deprived of benefit as long as the trade dispute is one by which his grade is affected, look at the power you put in the hands of the employer. An employer who desires to produce the maximum pressure not only against the particular grade of men with whom he is really in dispute, but against everybody associated with them, will issue lock-out notices against the whole body. He will not be content to lock out the particular branch with which he has the dispute, because, if he does that, under this proposal the rest of them will come upon the fund. Therefore you put it in his power to manipulate
    824
    the notices, with the result that he would be able to use this very provision as a means of striking a blow at people who are not otherwise in the dispute. Is that fair? Finally, take the case put, with great knowledge and effect, as a special case by the hon. Member for Dundee (Mr. Wilkie). Are not these the facts with regard to his own trade union? There is strike benefit paid in case of a dispute, but, on the other hand, unemployment benefit is optional. Some members subscribe for unemployment, and some do not. What happened only last year when there was a dispute such as the boilermakers' lock-out? What happened was that those who never in times of work subscribed to unemployed benefit began to agitate and came upon the fund for strike benefit. The hon. Member quite rightly and wisely no doubt was forced to give strike benefit out of the strike funds to a number of people who did not join the unemployment fund.
    Mr. WILKIE: That is not correct. We took a special vote of our members, and we gave all the men, idle and paid-off through the boilermakers' dispute, a special grant of unemployed benefit.
    Sir J. SIMON: I am sorry I did not put the facts exactly as they were. But the facts stated make the point I want to make better. It is not a practical proposal to draw this precise line between the grade that is engaged in the trade dispute, and the closely related trades that are unfortunately suffering. As I pointed out earlier, the proposal of my hon. Friend would work out in this way: A man comes and says to the insurance officer, "I want my 7s.," and the insurance officer has to decide the difficult and delicate matter as to whether the man is justified when he says that his grade is not the grade that is involved in this trade dispute.
    Mr. WILKIE: Excuse me, but I would like the House to recollect that I have given actual cases. When there is a dispute in one grade of a society the employer treats all alike; they are all in dispute, and not one grade only.
    Sir J. SIMON: When there is a dispute, the hon. Member tells us the employer deals with the whole body of men whether they belong to the one grade——
    Mr. WILKIE: If they are in the one union.
    Sir J. SIMON: Then why change the Bill so that so long as a man is not

    825
    in that particular grade in which the dispute has arisen he has to have the benefits I ask the House to show what I am sure it is anxious to show, in the first place the courage to resist what is a very tempting, but a very, it seems to me, illogical Amendment. On the other hand, I desire to make a practical test which can be applied simply, swiftly, and certainly by the official who has to decide straight off as to whether or not the man has to have the 7s. a week. We are seeking to prevent this fund from being manipulated by one side or the other, just to suit the convenience of this or that secretary. It is said, but not accurately, that if the Government proposal is adopted that we are depriving the man of the benefit for which he has subscribed. Really, with great respect, that is not so. What we provide for is that he shall get the benefit when he is unemployed, to the extent of one week's benefit for every five weeks' contributions. The fact that he does not draw his benefit when his fellow-workmen are on strike does not mean that we take it away from him. It is there, and we have provisions in this Bill that if he does not, in the ordinary course of events, draw it all, he has the special right to get part of it when he comes to the end of his working life. It is not fair to allege that the proposal of the Government is that they desire to deny a man something for which he had contributed.
    Mr. O'GRADY: I think we are confusing things. I do not mean to suggest that the Solicitor-General is intentionally, by his legal argument, confusing the matter, but in fact we are confusing the question at issue. It is not an easy matter for the unions to discriminate between men who are not on dispute and men who are out of work. When an application was made on the North-East coast by my own society and other societies that those men should get lock-out pay, it was positively refused, and we paid them simply out-of-work pay. If the Amalgamated Society of Engineers have 400 men in Armstrong's yard and there is a dispute about wages which involves men and employers in a strike, those men get strike pay from the Amalgamated Society of Engineers, but if as a result of that strike the whole body of men of the society are locked out they do not get strike pay but out-of-work pay.
    I do not think the Solicitor-General can get away from the fact that when a man is not in dispute with his employers
    826
    he is out of work. Let me reply to the hon. Member for Mansfield (Sir A. Markham.) In the first place we have now a contract with the employers in the shipbuilding trade to prevent the possibility of demarcation difficulties in the future. Secondly, demarcation disputes never affect the labourers; it is only between the skilled labourers that the quarrels arise on that point. Assuming there is a dispute as to demarcation between two bodies of men, and that the labourers are thrown out of work because of it, obviously they are not in a state of strike, but they are compelled to walk about the streets, and they are entitled to the benefits for which they have paid. With regard to the point that the Government's proposals do not deprive these men of out-of-work pay, that is all very fine, but, as a matter of fact, they do deprive a man of the unemployment benefit when he is actually in want of it. The Bill is absolutely no good unless a man can get his unemployed benefit when he is unemployed, although it might be kept back for a period of years. If a union took up that position, the first thing a man would do would be to break away from the union. If the Government cannot accept these words I hope it may be within the ingenuity of the Government to find a way to give these unfortunate unskilled labourers the benefits they are entitled to.
    Lord ROBERT CECIL: The Solicitor-General says that where there is a trade union with unemployment benefit and strike benefit, in the case put by the hon. Member for Dundee, it would fall under the head of strike benefit and not unemployment. I think that argument ignores the central fact that in a trade union a man subscribes if he likes, but here you are going to compel him to subscribe. I put aside all the arguments by analogy with trade unions. It is said that this Amendment would merely encourage employers to create a dispute with the whole of their men because in that way they would deprive them of the strike unemployment pay they would otherwise get. Under the Bill as it stands that will happen automatically because it will be a trade dispute in a factory and the whole of the men will be deprived always, without any action on the part of the employer, of unemployed benefit. I cannot see how a man could possibly be in a worse position from that point of view. The Solicitor-

    827
    General said trade unions comprise different grades and it might be that a strike would be initiated by one grade and the other members of the trade union all having a certain corporate responsibility, they all ought to suffer by the strike.
    Surely it is not beyond the ingenuity of the law officers to meet this point. It is easy if you accept the principle to put in a proviso saying that where all the men were members of a trade union it should not apply. The Solicitor-General said a man might come and say he was entitled to 7s. a week, and that it would put too great a burden on the insurance officer for him to have to decide whether the man belonged to the particular grade or not which had struck work. I do not think there would be any difficulty of that kind in the majority of cases. I should have thought that generally speaking it would be quite easy to say whether a man did or did not belong to a particular grade. There might be exceptional cases, but in such an event why not let the insurance officer suspend the matter, and leave it to the umpire to settle. Surely you are not going to tell the House of Commons that because there is a mechanical difficulty which prevents you doing justice you are not willing to put in a proviso which will enable you to do justice in this case.
    Mr. CLYNES: I firmly believe that unless this Amendment is carried the Bill will commit an act of the gravest injustice to a poor and suffering class, who are compelled to pay for unemployment benefits under this Bill. The two speeches delivered from the Front Bench have been keenly disappointing in view of the hopes raised by the statement of the President of the Board of Trade when we discussed the last Amendment, and from both those speeches I cannot make out upon what grounds the Government are opposing this Amendment. I submit that the unions in this matter have met the difficulties arising from their own experience. The Gas Workers and General Labourers Union meet the difficulty by giving benefits under the rules to the men if they stop work through someone else's dispute at their place of employment. Surely it is not impossible for the Government to frame words, or for the Commissioners to have the necessary authority, to locate or discover the men who are the actual combatants in a trade dispute, and the men who are not. If that is the practical difficulty and the Government is prepared to
    828
    meet it, I would like to put this to the President of the Board of Trade. I gather earlier in the discussion he alluded to the endeavours made upstairs and in interviews to meet this trouble, and I understood him to say he was still disposed to see what words might be framed to meet this claim. If the claim is in itself just, as it has mostly been admitted to be, I do not think the House ought to conclude the question to-night, assuming for the time being the mind of the President of the Board of Trade is still open for further endeavour to provide a set of words to meet the case.
    The hon. Member for the Mansfield Division (Sir A. Markham) scarcely touched, if at all, the real kernel of this Amendment. I will endeavour to illustrate to him how it would work in the trade with which he is closely connected, assuming for the purpose that trade to be covered by the Bill, and I think he will see the injustice he is doing by opposing it. There is a strike among coal miners, and connected with the mines there are a large number of workmen who are not parties to the dispute. The attitude of the hon. Member is that you must not give these men who are merely stopped through somebody else's quarrel unemployment benefit, but if you cease cutting coal you throw out of work men who are engaged in other trades, and in other premises, because of the shortage of the coal supply, they would receive benefit because they would be engaged in other trades and on other premises. The Bill at present provides that the spinner who spins the web shall not have any benefit if he is in a state of dispute, but the weaver employed in other premises, close to but separate from the spinning mill, who is to turn that web into cloth will get benefit. If it is right to give this weaver, stopped through shortage of material, benefit, upon what ground do you withhold it from, say, the hod carrier, who carries the material to the man on the building? Both the brick setter and the hod carrier must pay for insurance, and I say the relationship between them is exactly the same as the relationship between the spinner and the weaver. The Solicitor-General has not met our case by telling us that when you give unemployment benefit during the time of dispute, you give it according to the number of payments and the period over which those payments are made. That is rather an argument on our side than against us. Most of us thought that

    829
    in the case of the labourers who are scarcely, if ever, unemployed except when thrown out of work through somebody else's disputes, provision should be made in order that these should have the benefit not when they do not want it, but when on account of being forced out of a job through somebody else's quarrels they stand in real need of it. There is no excuse for committing a great injustice merely because of practical difficulties.
    We are not asking the Government to take sides in the quarrel. We are asking them not to take sides at all as between the combatants, but to see as an impartial party that those who are not participating in the dispute shall have such benefits as they would be entitled to under ordinary circumstances when out of employment. They talk about what the employers would do if this Amendment were incorporated in the Bill. I venture to assert that if any employers did as has been suggested—I do not say I should be sorry if they did—they would constitute themselves the greatest propagandists of Socialistic principles in the country. Suppose there were a thousand men employed in an establishment and only one hundred of them were engaged in a dispute with their employer. Is it likely the the employer, in order to prevent the labourers, who are not parties to the dispute, getting the unemployment benefit, would extend the quarrel to the whole thousand men? They would know better than to do that, as it would be one of the most effective steps for inducing men in every shop in the country to make common cause with his men. In the event of the employers attacking the whole body it is certain the whole body would have something to fight for, and would insist on gaining something from the dispute. The greatest sufferers during periods of bad trade are the lowly-paid labourers. The argument put forward from the Front Bench is that this Bill is designed to assist people who are out of work during periods of acute unemployment. It is just in those periods that the labourer suffers most. Why? Because he is the first to be thrown out. He can sooner be dispensed with. When employers propose to reduce wages or alter conditions of working they usually begin with the higher-paid men. That commences the quarrel, and it leads to strikes, and the labourer is a double sufferer: he falls between the employer and the skilled workman, and he does not profit by any benefits that may accrue to either party by reason of the dispute. My hon. Friend the Member for Barrow
    830
    put our whole case in a word when he said that the question amounts to whether a man was to gain from a scheme made by the employers, or, on the other hand, whether a man is to lose by the attack of the employer; that is the point that should really determine the man's right to have unemployment benefit, and I appeal to the Government not to do a thing which would not only be extremely unpopular and occasion the greatest resentment in the country, but which would to my mind be the greatest act of injustice that could be incorporated in this Bill.
    Mr. GOLDMAN: I do not know whether the hon. Gentleman who moved this Amendment intends pressing it to a Division. If he does I should like to point out to him the effect which it would produce upon the whole finances of the Bill. The actuaries have provided a certain fund to meet all cases of unemployment in respect to all persons subject to unemployment owing to circumstances and cycles of depression and seasons of depression, and they have made their calculations accordingly. I have not the least objection to the hon. Member's raising this question, but seeing that the fund, if this Amendment were accepted, would become insolvent, are they prepared to increase the contribution from the workers which would be necessary to meet the difficulty?
    Mr. WILLIAM THORNE: There is plenty of money in the Exchequer.
    Mr. GOLDMAN: I understand the whole Bill is experimental. The desire is that the experiment should be successful and so successful that its benefits should be extended to other trades, but this Amendment if accepted would start the Bill on a basis likely to make it insolvent, in which case there would not be much prospect of extending the Bill to other trades. Seeing the effect this Amendmentment would have upon the finances of the Bill, as pointed out by the Attorney-General, and seeing that it might lead to lock-outs, in which case you would lose the contributions from the employers and the consequent loss to the funds that would be involved, I urge the hon. Member not to press his Amendment.
    Major H. C. GUEST: In view of the complexity of this question and in view of the fact that every Member is desirous of coming to a just and wise conclusion upon

    831
    the subject, I should like to ask whether the President of the Board of Trade can give us some of the reasons and deductions which lead him towards his Amendment which has been spoken of several times in this Debate. I think that would be helpful to many Members to come to an accurate and just decision.
    Sir JOHN SIMON: In answer to the hon. Gentleman I wish to say that as the House will see we propose to introduce a qualification upon the words as they stand in the Bill. The exact form of that qualification is a matter for subsequent discussion, but as it stands upon the Paper it would run where separate branches of work are ordinarily carried on, as separate business, in several departments of the same premises, each shall for the purposes of this division be a separate factor. The result would be, to take such a case as mentioned by the hon. Member (Mr. Clynes), that a weaver and a spinner, who commonly are found in separate factories, merely because they find themselves in the same factory, would not all suffer under the common disqualification, and this very provision of ours is designed to meet such a case. I suggest that is a fair matter for consideration whether the qualification we seek to introduce is in apt language, and no one is more willing than we are to consider any alternative language which is definite and practical, but the right way in which to cut down the appli-
    cation of the Clause as it stands is by introducing some such qualification as the Government have suggested and is not to introduce into the Clause this test about a man being directly concerned. Although the Bill, when it was first discussed in Grand Committee, contained these words about being directly affected, the leader of the Labour party—the Labour party never thought of pressing any such proposal there—when I proposed these words which are now in the Bill in place of those less clear words said:—
    "We feel, and I think the whole Committee will agree with us, that the Clause as it was originally drafted might have been very oppressive; it was so vague."
    I think after that we had two hours' discussion, as a result of which the House is asked to come to the conclusion that the reintroduction of the test as to whether or not the particular grade affected is the grade which is to claim pay will produce the effect. I suggest it will not. I ask the House to reject this Amendment, and let us by all means say to-morrow whether or not the proposal which the Government seek to add is unduly indefinite, and if anyone can propose definite and rather wider words there is no opposition to it as long as they work fairly between one branch of trade and another.
    Question put, "That those words be there inserted in the Bill."
    The House divided: Ayes, 69; Noes, 146.

    Division No. 417.]

    AYES.

    [11.50 p.m.

    Adkins, Sir W. Ryland D.

    Goldstone, Frank

    Shortt, Edward

    Allen, A. A. (Dumbartonshire)

    Gwynne, R. S. (Sussex, Eastbourne)

    Smith, Albert (Lancs., Clitheroe)

    Ashley, W. W.

    Hall, Fred (Dulwich)

    Smith, Harold (Warrington)

    Balcarres, Lord

    Hancock, John George

    Snowden, Philip

    Barnes, George N.

    Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N. E.)

    Stanier, Beville

    Beckett, Hon. Gervase

    Haslam, James (Derbyshire)

    Stanley, Albert (Staffs, N. W.)

    Benn, Arthur Shirley (Plymouth)

    Helmsley, Viscount

    Stanley, Hon. G. F. (Preston)

    Bigland, Alfred

    Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

    Sutton, John E.

    Bird, A.

    Henderson, Major H. (Berks, Abingdon)

    Sykes, Mark (Hull, Central)

    Boscawen, Sir Arthur S. T. Griffith-

    Hodge, John

    Taylor, John W. (Durham)

    Bowerman, C. W.

    Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield)

    Thorne, William (West Ham)

    Bridgeman, William Clive

    Ingleby, Holcombe

    Thynne, Lord A.

    Burn, Colonel C. R.

    Jowett, Frederick William

    Walsh, Stephen (Lancs., Ince)

    Carlile, Sir Edward Hildred

    Kellaway, Frederick George

    Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent)

    Cecil, Lord R. (Herts, Hitchin)

    Lansbury, George

    Wheler, Granville C. H.

    Chaloner, Colonel R. G. W.

    Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester)

    Wilkie, Alexander

    Chapple, Dr. W. A.

    Morrell, Philip

    Williams, J. (Glamorgan)

    Clynes, John R.

    O'Grady, James

    Williams, P. (Middlesbrough)

    Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth)

    Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington)

    Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.)

    Edwards, Enoch (Hanley)

    Pole-Carew, Sir R.

    Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)

    Elverston, Sir Harold

    Pryce-Jones, Col. E.

    Worthington Evans, L.

    Gill, A. H.

    Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall)

    Gladstone, W. G. C.

    Rowlands, James

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr. Charles Duncan and Mr. J. Parker.

    Glanville, H. J.

    Rutherford, Watson (L'pool, W. Derby)

    NOES.

    Abraham, William (Dublin Harbour)

    Agnew, Sir George William

    Anderson, Andrew Macbeth

    Acland, Francis Dyke

    Ainsworth, John Stirling

    Baker, Harold T. (Accrington)

    Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

    Allen, Charles P. (Stroud)

    Banbury, Sir Frederick George

    Baring, Sir Godfrey (Barnstaple)

    Havelock Allan, Sir Henry

    O'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, S.)

    Barran, Sir John N. (Hawick, B.)

    Hayden, John Patrick

    Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek)

    Beach, Hon. Michael Hugh Hicks

    Helme, Norval Watson

    Philipps, Col. Ivor (Southampton)

    Beck, Arthur Cecil

    Hickman, Colonel Thomas E.

    Phillips, John (Longford, S.)

    Bentham, G. J.

    Higham, John Sharp

    Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H.

    Boland, John Pius

    Hinds, John

    Power, Patrick Joseph

    Booth, Frederick Handel

    Hobhouse, Rt. Hon. Charles E. H.

    Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central)

    Boyle, D. (Mayo, N.)

    Howard, Hon. Geoffrey

    Price, Sir Robert J. (Norfolk, E.)

    Bryce, John Annan

    Hughes, S. L.

    Pringle, William M. R.

    Burns, Rt. Hon. John

    Hunter, William (Lanark, Govan)

    Raphael, Sir Herbert H.

    Buxton, Rt. Hon. S. C. (Poplar)

    Isaacs, Rt. Hon. Sir Rufus

    Rea, Walter Russell (Scarborough)

    Byles, Sir William Pollard

    Jones, Edgar (Merthyr Tydvil)

    Reddy, Michael

    Carr-Gomm, H. W.

    Jones, Leif Stratten (Notts, Rushcliffe)

    Rendall, Athelstan

    Cawley, Harold T. (Heywood)

    Jones, William (Carnarvonshire)

    Richardson, Albion (Peckham)

    Chancellor, H. G.

    Keating, Matthew

    Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)

    Clough, William

    Kennedy, Vincent Paul

    Roberts, Sir J. H. (Denbighs)

    Collins, G. P. (Greenock)

    King, J. (Somerset, N.)

    Robertson, John M. (Tyneside)

    Collins, Stephen (Lambeth)

    Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, West)

    Robinson, Sidney

    Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.

    Lawson, Sir W. (Cumb'rld, Cockerm'th)

    Roche, John (Galway, E.)

    Cotton, William Francis

    Lewis, John Herbert

    Rose, Sir Charles Day

    Cowan, William Henry

    Lundon, T.

    Rewntree, Arnold

    Crumley, Patrick

    Lynch, A. A.

    Russell, Rt. Hon. Thomas W.

    Davies, Timothy (Lincs., Louth)

    Maclean, Donald

    Rutherford, John (Lancs., Darwen)

    Dawes, J. A.

    Macnamara, Rt. Hon. Dr. T. J.

    Sanders, Robert A.

    Denman, Hon. Richard Douglas

    Macpherson, James Ian

    Scanlan, Thomas

    Dickson, Rt. Hon. C. Scott

    M'Callum, John M.

    Sherwell, Arthur James

    Doris, W.

    M'Laren, Hon. F. W. S. (Lincs., Spalding)

    Simon, Sir John Allsebrook

    Edwards, Clement (Glamorgan, E.)

    Markham, Sir Arthur Basil

    Starkey, John Ralph

    Edwards, Sir Francis (Radnor)

    Marshall, Arthur Harold

    Stewart, Gershom

    Elibank, Rt. Hon. Master of

    Masterman, C. F. G.

    Strauss, Edward A. (Southwark, West)

    Essex, Richard Walter

    Meehan, Patrick A. (Queen's County)

    Summers, James Woolley

    Esslemont, George Birnie

    Molloy, Michael

    Sutherland, John E.

    Ferens, T. R.

    Montagu, Hon. E. S.

    Toulmin, Sir George

    Fiennes, Hon. Eustace Edward

    Morgan, George Hay

    Trevelyan, Charles Philips

    George, Rt. Hon. D. Lloyd

    Morrison-Bell, Capt E. F. (Ashburton)

    Ure, Rt. Hon. Alexander

    Gibbs, G. A.

    Muldoon, John

    Ward, W. Dudley (Southampton)

    Gretton, John

    Munro, R.

    Webb, H.

    Griffith, Ellis Jones

    Murray, Cant. Hon. A. C.

    White, J. Dundas (Glasgow, Tradeston)

    Guest, Major Hon. C. H. C. (Pembroke)

    Nicholson, Charles N. (Doncaster)

    White, Patrick (Meath, North)

    Guest, Hon. Frederick E. (Dorset, E.)

    Nolan, Joseph

    Wiles, Thomas

    Gwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway)

    Norton, Capt. Cecil W.

    Wilson, Rt. Hon. J. W. (Worcs., N.)

    Hackett, J.

    Nugent, Sir Walter Richard

    Wood, John (Stalybridge)

    Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose)

    Nuttall, Harry

    Wood, Rt. Hon. T. McKinnon (Glas.)

    Harmsworth, Cecil (Luton, Beds.)

    O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

    Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale)

    O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr. Gulland and Mr. Wedgwood Benn.

    Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, W.)

    O'Doherty, Philip

    Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth)

    O'Kelly, Edward P. (Wicklow, W.)

    Mr. GULLAND: I beg to move "That further consideration of the Bill, as amended, be now adjourned."
    Lord HUGH CECIL Lord HUGH CECIL rose.
    Mr. SPEAKER: I declare the proceedings now adjourned.
    Mr. LLOYD GEORGE Mr. LLOYD GEORGE rose.
    12.0 M.
    Mr. WATSON RUTHERFORD: On a point of Order. I wish to submit that it is not competent for the Government to move this Motion of which they have given notice. We are now upon one of the allotted days under the Guillotine Motion passed by the House. Those allotted days partake of two characters. On certain of them at half-past ten there is business to be concluded, and the procedure for that purpose of concluding that business is defined by the Order. On other days, for instance to-night, the proceedings upon which we have been engaged are not proceedings which are to be concluded tonight under the terms of the Order. There is a clear distinction drawn with this
    834
    Order between days for which business is concluded and days which do not come within that character. May I call your attention to Clause 4 on page 2 of the Order, which relates to private business.
    I find that any private business which could have been put down for a quarter past eight o'clock may be proceeded with, though opposed after the conclusion of the proceedings under the Bill, and it is clear that that would mean any day, whether certain matters had got to be brought to a conclusion or not. But when you come to the exception at the bottom of the Order we find that nothing in this Order shall prevent any other business being proceeded with on any particular day or part of a day, and so on, after any proceedings to be concluded under this Order on that particular day or part of a day have been disposed of. The proceedings that we have been engaged on were not proceedings to be concluded, and have not in fact been concluded, because they have been adjourned. Therefore I submit that, although this Order was most

    835
    ingeniously drawn up, and intended to give the Government every facility and other Members none, yet the Government are bound by the Order which they themselves have succeeded in passing through this House, and whilst undoubtedly the Government could bring this Motion on on a day when at half-past ten the proceedings under the Bill have been brought to a conclusion, and concluded in accordance with the formalities, yet this is not one of these days, and it is not competent for the Government to bring this business on. That is no part of my duty; it is the duty of the Government to find some means of carrying on their own business. If they shut themselves out, and shut other people out from their right to go on with the business, they must take the consequences.
    Mr. SPEAKER: The argument of the hon. Member would mean that the Government would be precluded from taking any orders of the day after the conclusion of business upon the National Insurance Bill.
    Mr. WATSON RUTHERFORD: Except by consent, if opposed.
    Mr. SPEAKER: There is nothing about consent or opposed in the Order. I think the hon. Member is mixing up this Special Order with the Order which was passed on the first day of the Autumn Session, that Government business may be entered upon at any time though opposed. This proposal of the Chancellor of the Exchequer is Government business. It comes under the General Order, and can be taken at any time, whether it is before eleven or after eleven o'clock.
    Lord HUGH CECIL: It was an express understanding that no new Government business was to be entered upon after eleven o'clock. The Prime Minister used language quite clear that he did not intend new business to be taken after eleven o'clock.
    Mr. SPEAKER: That is not upon the point of Order. There is no Motion before the House.
    Lord HUGH CECIL: I am prepared to move the Adjournment.
    Mr. SPEAKER: There is no Motion before the House at all.
    Lord HUGH CECIL: I am prepared to move a Motion.

NATIONAL INSURANCE BILL.

  ALLOCATION OF TIME.
  Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: I beg to move the following Motion standing on the Paper in the name of the Prime Minister,
  That the Order made by this House on the 26th October, 1911, with respect to Business of the House (National Insurance Bill) (Allocation of Time), shall be amended by the substitution of the following Table for that portion of Table B annexed to that Order which relates to the proceedings of the fourth and fifth allotted days, and the time for those proceedings to be brought to a conclusion:—

  Allotted Day.

  Proceedings.

  Time for Proceedings to be brought to a conclusion.

  Fourth

  …

  Parts II. and III. of the Bill and the First Schedule

  10.30 on the fourth allotted day, or 4.30 if that day is Friday.

  Fifth

  …

  The remainder of the Schedules, and any other matter necessary to bring the Report stage to a conclusion

  10.30, or 4.30 if that day is a Friday.

  I gave way to the hon. Gentleman on the point of Order. The reason why I move this variation in the Order of the House is one which I think will commend itself to hon. Members on both sides. The proposal is that we should begin with the Second Schedule instead of the First Schedule on the last day. The reason for that is this: Looking at the Amendment Paper, I should say that the Amendments on Part II. will be disposed of early tomorrow. Part III. was very fully discussed in Committee. There was no Debate at all on Schedule II. There have been two or three Debates on the contributions. There was the Debate, first of all, upon the Financial Resolution, and the whole question of contributions was discussed then. There was a Debate upon Clause 3, which deals with contributions. There was an opportunity for further discussion upon Clause 3 when we moved the amended Resolution on finance, because the Amendment on finance was moved with special reference

  837
  to the alteration we proposed to make in the contributions. Still, there was no opportunity on those three occasions to move a direct Amendment as to the amount of contributions. Therefore I think it is desirable, in the interests of discussion, that there should be at least a day's debate on the question of contribution. There are one or two important questions to be raised, I see, by the Amendments. I think the House would like to have an opportunity for debating those Amendments. In order to afford that opportunity, especially after the First Schedule has already been fully discussed, I submit this Motion to the House.
  Lord HUGH CECIL: If this proceeding is brought forward by general assent, it is well within the understanding, because the Prime Minister was quite distinctly pledged not to enter into wholly new business, that had no relation to the business under discussion, after eleven o'clock. It is not desirable that understandings of that kind should be broken. My hon. Friend the Member for the City of London drew attention to the question, and to what would be the effect of suspending the Eleven o'Clock Rule. The Prime Minister in reply said:—
  "We intend to guard a discussion which is approaching its conclusion, which may very often reach its conclusion in a quarter of an hour or half an hour—I am not binding myself, otherwise there may be charges of breaches of faith—but I will say within reasonable elasticity, a phrase capable of a great many interpretations. That is the kind of case we have in view. The only other case I can think of would be one, where there was agreement to take a Bill, although a Government Bill, a Bill of a departmental or non-controversial character."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 24th October, 1911, col. 28.]
  I do not see the Prime Minister. I hope he is not unwell. If he is not, I think he ought to be in his place on a Motion of this kind. He is the Leader of the House, and it is very disrespectful of the Leader of the House not to be in his place when a Motion as to business is under discussion, and it is exceedingly inconvenient because we have to rely on those assurances, and it is inconvenient to discuss them in his absence. My right hon. Friend the Member for East Worcestershire (Mr. Austen Chamberlain) cross-examined the Prime Minister, as he said, and he had the assurance to complain of being cross-examined. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for East Worcestershire said:—
  "I understand the right Gentleman to preclude himself from beginning a new Bill after eleven o'clock, without the general assent of the House."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 24th October, 1911, col. 29.]
  838
  The Prime Minister objected to being cross-examined, and made a statement at considerable length, concluding—
  "Subject to that I do say that without consent, we should not propose to enter upon a new Bill."
  I do not know whether the Government rely on the distinction between a Bill and a Resolution. That would be worthy of the Witches of "Macbeth"—
  "That keep the word of promise to our ear."
  —and break it in the sense. This is not a very controversial business, and if it has the general assent of the House I should not stand in the way, as I have not any strong opinion on the matter. It is not keeping faith with the House to do it, and it is not the only instance by many.
  Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: Speaking by leave of the House, I think I had rather not enter into the very controversial sentence with which the Noble Lord concluded his speech. The only alternative to this is a Saturday sitting, and surely that is not for the convenience of the House. [HON. MEMBERS: "Why?"] I do not think hon. Members who interrupt me would consider that a very satisfactory arrangement.
  Mr. FORSTER: Why is it the only alternative?
  Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: I will tell you why. I think I have interpreted the desire of the majority of those who are interested in the discussion in saying that it is desirable that we should have a Debate on Schedule 2, and not merely the desire of those in the House, but those outside who are specially interested in the apportionment of the contributions. We feel bound, in honour bound, to do what we can to propose a Resolution which will enable the House to have that opportunity. If we did not do it to-night our only chance would be by setting up a Saturday sitting.
  Lord HUGH CECIL: Let us do that.
  Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: The Noble Lord says let us do that; but I do not think that that is the general feeling of the House. My right hon. Friend was anxious to get Clause 81 to-night, and had it not been for this Motion he would have gone on until that Clause was passed. The Adjournment was really proposed in order that we might move this Motion. I do not think we are breaking faith in the spirit. In the letter—I am not pressing the point; we are not substantially breaking faith. What

  839
  the Prime Minister really meant—I was not here at the time, but I have consulted my right hon. Friend who was—was that we would not start a new Bill of a controversial character after eleven o'clock. But this Motion is in reference to the Bill under discussion, and the consideration of that Bill was adjourned earlier than it would otherwise have been in order that we might get this Resolution. Some hon. Members are very anxious to raise the cotton question in Lancashire, and I think it ought to be discussed. If I were anxious to get rid of an inconvenient question I would not move this Resolution. It is because I am desirous of discussing these questions, however inconvenient they may be, so that the case may be stated on both sides, that I am making this proposal.
  Mr. FORSTER: I think my Noble Friend did right in calling attention to the undertaking given by the Prime Minister, and it would have been a great pity if he had not done so. The question resolves itself into this: Is the Motion really controversial, or is it not? If it were really controversial, I do not think the right hon. Gentleman ought to take it; he would be bound by the pledge of the Prime Minister. Speaking for myself, I regard the whole of our proceedings under the guillotine as so cribbed, cabined, and confined, that it is absolutely immaterial what compartments you suggest, what arrangements you make, for the discussion of this or that detail, of this clause or of that schedule. Every part of the Bill requires examination and amendment, and ought to be discussed. Therefore, I say that if you in your generosity say that we will curtail the discussion of Part II. to a single afternoon, in order that we may have a discussion of Schedule II. on the following day, it is perfectly immaterial. I am just as ready to discuss Schedule II. as any other part of the Bill. Before the Report stage I suggested that we should take Part II. first, believing that the discussion would occupy but a limited time, so that the rest of the time available might be devoted to the discussion of Part I. An arrangement was nearly arrived at by agreement. If the suggestion had been carried out, we could have had two and a-half days for the discussion of the Clauses of Part I. As it is, we have not had a single moment for the discussion of many of the Clauses of Part I. I am not going into the general question of the guillotine. That was very
  840
  ably dealt with in the short and eloquent speech of the Leader of the Opposition this evening. I say this particular guillotine motion has not the slightest interest for me. The Government has shown little judgment of the real difficulties of their own Bill, and little ability in apportioning the time properly for discussion of one part as compared with another. I say that they have given too much time for the discussion of some sections, and far too little for the discussion of others. They must take the whole responsibility for this particular Motion.
  Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: This is a controversial topic, and if the Noble Lord and others think that the Prime Minister gave a pledge—if they insist upon that, there is no alternative but to have a Saturday sitting. I should certainly not press the matter if that is the view taken by the Opposition—that it should not be pressed after eleven o'clock at night. Therefore I put myself in their hands.
  Sir F. BANBURY: It was in answer to a speech of mine that the Prime Minister gave his undertaking. It is quite true that I used the word "Bills" in connection with the suspension of the eleven o'clock rule, but if the House will consider for a moment I think it is quite evident that when one discusses whether or not advantage will be taken of the suspension of the rule that it includes everything, whether the Bill or business. From the day the pledge was given till now no one could have observed the undertaking in a more honourable spirit than the right hon. Gentleman the Chief Government Whip. I am very glad, in order that there should be no misunderstanding on these matters—which are important for both sides of the House—that the Chancellor of the Exchequer has taken the view he has done. So far as I am personally concerned I do not in the least care whether it is taken or not. But I thought I ought to get up and inform the House that in my opinion, if the Resolution was taken, it would be a breach of the undertaking given by the Prime Minister, for ever since 24th October the pledge has been religiously observed by the right hon. Gentleman.
  Mr. RAWLINSON: I would like to point this out that if this new resolution is carried the First Schedule cannot be discussed at all to-morrow. The First Schedule is the only part of the Bill that interests me, because of the numerous

  841
  people who have written to me upon the subject. The First Schedule deals with the people who want to get out of the operation of the Bill—the most numerous class, I think—including, amongst others, secondary school teachers, hospital nurses, and the domestic servants. By this Motion to-night the Government are going to carry this alteration in Part I. by half-past four to-morrow, and it will not be discussed in any way, whereas if it is taken on Monday some of the people seeking exemption will have their claims discussed by this House.
  Mr. WATSON RUTHERFORD: So far as I can ascertain the feelings of hon. Members, and certainly speaking for myself, I would strongly prefer the Resolution as it stands at present than the Motion moved to-night, and for this reason. We are particularly anxious to discuss in the House upon Report stage several very important questions as to what classes of the community should be exempt from the operations of the Bill. If this Resolution of the Government is passed to-night we should find ourselves without any opportunity of discussing these important points. Upon the merits of it we are very strongly opposed to the Motion the Chancellor of the Exchequer. We think the subject so important that if another day could be given to it, even if it was a Saturday, it would be infinitely better that Members of Parliament should be willing to give another day to matters like this rather than that they should be rushed through and passed into law without a reasonable opportunity for discussion and amendment, which they certainly ought to have.
  I am the more emboldened to make these observations by the fact that I distinctly understood, when the Prime Minister brought forward his Motion with regard to the suspension of the eleven o'clock rule—and we paid very great attention to every word that fell from him on that occasion—it was made clear that any extra business could only be put down and discussed upon a night when the business of the Insurance Bill had been concluded at half-past ten o'clock. We all felt that it would be a reasonable thing if the Government choose to bring forward any business if the business of the Insurance Bill had been disposed of at an early hour that they should do so. We understood that to have been made perfectly clear upon the Motion for the suspension of the eleven o'clock rule.
  842
  It was understood that the Government would only ask us to deal with matters of form on nights when the guillotine operated at 10.30, which would allow time for reasonable discussion. It has now been made clear that there is a very considerable difference of opinion upon the merits of the Motion the Chancellor of the Exchequer has brought forward, and there are very strong reasons why it should not be pressed to-night.
  Lord HUGH CECIL: I can only speak by the indulgence of the House, but I wish to say that the very kind speech of the Chancellor of the Exchequer has fully met the question of keeping faith. I do not wish to press the matter further. I have not followed this Bill very closely, and I do not quite know which course would be the most convenient, but as I understand from the right hon. Gentleman's reply that the matter is to be adjusted in a friendly spirit, I do not desire to press my Motion.
  Sir A. GRIFFITH-BOSCAWEN: The Government distinctly promised two and a-half days for the Report stage of the Unemployment Section of this Bill, and they are now proposing to take away one of those days. The Chancellor of the Exchequer assumes that we should finish early to-morrow, but may I point out that we have only done three Clauses to-night, and there are eighteen more. The unemployment part of the Bill has never been before the House at all. It is true it was discussed in the Standing Committee, and now, after a definite promise that two and a-half days would be devoted to this part of the Bill, the Government propose to take away one of those days. I think that is a definite breach of faith. I wish to call attention to the fact that during the proceedings on the Standing Committee certain Amendments were withdrawn on the understanding that they were to be brought up on Report. I protested at the time that there would be very little time on Report, but the President of the Board of Trade said we should have two and a-half days, and that argument was used more than once. And now, at the very last moment, without any warning, the Government propose to take away one of the two and a-half days, reducing the time allowed for this part of the Bill to one and a-half days. I consider this is a complete breach of faith.
  Mr. WORTHINGTON-EVANS: It is clear that the Government intend to prevent

  843
  us having any adequate opportunity of discussing this Bill, and it would be useless to protest or attempt to say which part shall or shall not be discussed. What the hon. Member for Dudley said about the work upstairs is quite accurate, for again and again we were promised consideration of our proposals in the House, and Amendments were withdrawn on the distinct understanding that they should be considered on Report. It is clear that that cannot possibly be done because, however quickly the House moves to-morrow, it will not be able to cover the whole of that ground. As to what will be done on Monday, there are twenty-nine Clauses which have never been discussed at all in Committee, and eleven of them were not discussed on Report. Those eleven Clauses have not been discussed in Committee, on Report, or upon the Second Reading, because they are new Clauses which have never been before the House. I think it is ridiculous for the Government to say to us now, "Would you like your head cut off at ten o'clock or eleven o'clock, or how would you like it?"
  Lord R. CECIL: Now that the Government are amending their guillotine Motion they should omit so much of it as refers to the Third Reading altogether, and I am going to propose an Amendment to that effect. In the first place, may I point out that there really is never any justification for including the Third Reading stage in a guillotine Motion. As soon as the discussion has gone on sufficiently long it is open to any Member of the House to move the Closure, and that brings the stage to an end then and there. If certain facts arise which make it desirable that the Third Reading should be discussed at length, then the House should have full and free powers of discussing it. If, on the other hand, it is apparent that the Bill has already been sufficiently discussed, and there is no desire to prolong the discussion, then Mr. Speaker, no doubt, in the exercise of his discretion, would allow the Closure to be moved. I have never been able to understand what justification there is for putting a Third Reading into a guillotine Motion, and I do not understand what justification there is in this case.
  It appears to me there is in this case even less justification than usual, because unquestionably the Bill has been enormously changed since the Second Reading. Tremendous alterations have been made. They
  844
  may have been improvements or they may have been the reverse. It is wholly different Bill in many respects from what it was on the Second Reading, and whereas on the Second Reading there was every reason to suppose the Bill was going to be discussed freely and openly in the House, and that no attempt was to be made to curtail the discussion—as I understand was the general understanding in the summer—there suddenly came an alteration in the Government's plans, and the guillotine Motion was proposed to be altered. Since that time undoubtedly the Bill has assumed a very different aspect from what it had during the summer. Therefore, it seems to me—and I submit this to the House as well as to the Government—that this is an occasion on which there is even less reason than usual for arbitrarily cutting short the Third Reading stage by a cast-iron rule before anyone can see what the desire of the House may be at that stage with reference to the length of the discussion.
  May I just add this, which I admit is a matter affecting me personally, and therefore is not perhaps of any great importance to the House, but which is of some importance to myself and those whom I represent? I have recently fought an election in North Hertfordshire. During the course of that election both my opponent and I made the Insurance Bill the principal topic which we presented to the electors. We found—I think he found, and I know I found—that the Bill was profoundly unpopular. I firmly believe that if it had been possible to take a Referendum of the electors, not one-tenth of them would have voted for the Bill as it stands at present. That being so, I have no reason to suppose the North Hertfordshire electors are different from the electors in other parts of the country. ["Oh."] It might be different in the case of the electors who have the honour to be represented by the hon. Member opposite who dissents, but it certainly is not different from the case of other agricultural electors—at least that is what other hon. Members who have an opportunity of addressing agricultural electors inform me. That being so, I feel that this is a case in which further discussion of this Bill is very urgently needed, and, as far as I am personally concerned, I am absolutely pledged to do my best to press for very considerable changes in the Bill. The hon. Member for Pontefract (Mr. Booth) was good enough a day or two ago in this

  845
  House to make an observation with myself and others that:
  "They assured the people that they would come here and put this Bill right, and tell the Chancellor of the Exchequer what they think. Where are they? Why are they not here? They dare not speak upon this Bill."
  As far as I am concerned, I am perfectly ready to speak on this Bill, and I desire to have a full and free opportunity on the Third Reading to present those arguments which I had the honour to set before the electors of my Constituency.
  Mr. BOOTH: May I make a personal explanation? I do not think the hon. and learned Gentleman has read out the whole point of my remarks. I called attention to the three elections, and asked where the victors were, and there were cries from the Opposition side that they had been in the House that afternoon. I said, "If that is so, they have not dared to speak."
  Lord ROBERT CECIL: The point of the hon. Member's observation was that I myself and two of my colleagues were afraid to present to this House the arguments we used to our constituents.
  Mr. BOOTH: I think so.
  Lord ROBERT CECIL: I am prepared, if the Government will give me the opportunity on the Third Reading, to show that the hon. Member is entirely mistaken, and that he is making one of those charges that are absolutely baseless. As a matter of fact, observations of the kind I desire to make can only be made on Second and Third Readings. The hon. Member's invitation to us to enter upon a full discussion of our objections to the Bill on the Amendment then under discussion was not an invitation we were likely to accept. But that is only a personal matter. It is of importance to the House in this respect, that undoubtedly the feeling of the country has undergone a considerable change in regard to the Bill since Second Reading. The people understand now, for one thing, as they have had the advantage of the explanations of the Chancellor of the Exchequer in very elaborate speeches, and it was explained, I believe, by the hon. Member for Pontefract in my own division in a very elaborate speech. Under these circumstances, and in view of the great change of public feeling, I submit that in the case of this Bill, more than in the case of most Bills, there is less reason for arbitrarily cutting short the discussion on the Third Reading, and it ought to be left to the House, under the guardianship of Mr. Speaker, to say
  846
  how long that discussion should last. Under these circumstances, I beg to move after the word "by" ["amended by the substitution"] to insert the words "omitting so much of it as refers to the Third Reading and by." The effect of that would be to cut out from the original Resolution all words referring to the Third Reading, and leave the Third Reading to the ordinary Rules of the House.
  Sir H. CARLILE: I beg to second the Amendment.
  Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: I have consulted those who have considered the arrangements on behalf of the Government, and the objection to the Amendment is that it might interfere with the time that the Lords require for the Second Reading of the Bill. My recollection, which goes back a good many years, is that as regards most of these Bills only a day has been given to the Third Reading. I remember very well the Education Bill of 1902, in which the Noble Lord (Lord Hugh Cecil) took a great interest. He will admit that was a very controversial Bill, and yet I do not know that we got even a full day for the Third Reading. At all events, I am perfectly certain that we did not get more than a day, and the Third Reading Debate on that Bill was by no means the most useful of the discussions we had. As to the remarks of the Noble Lord the Member for Hitchin (Lord Robert Cecil), the only observaton I wish to make is that if the Bill is unpopular it is because we have followed the advice which the Noble Lord gave in connection with another matter when he moved that we should proceed on contributory lines.
  Lord ROBERT CECIL: An account has been given of my views which is absolutely unwarranted, and I have contradicted it before. I was always in favour of a contributory scheme; I was never in favour of a compulsory scheme. If the Chancellor of the Exchequer will refer to what I have said he will find that is the case.
  Mr. LLOYD GEORGE. I do not need to read anything the Noble Lord has said; I accept his words at once. But that undoubtedly was the view upon which the Opposition as a whole proceeded, and there are plenty of hon. Members present who can confirm what I say. But I will pass from that. All I will say is that if you want to make the Bill popular there is an easy way to do it—that is take the fourpence off the workman. All you have

  847
  to do is to shift the burden of contribution from the shoulders of the workman and you would make the Bill very popular, at any rate with the bulk of the people of the country. I am surprised that the Noble Lord (Lord Robert Cecil) advocated a by-election as a test of the popularity or unpopularity of a measure. He is the last man in this House I expected to see coming forward as a champion of that kind of theory. I do not think it is altogether worthy of his advocacy of other causes in the past. But I will not pursue that subject further; I would rather confine myself to the Amendment before the House. Again, I say I do not think the Third Reading is a very useful stage to us, and I have never known a Guillotine Resolution moved—I will not say by the present Government, but by the late Government—which gave more than a day for that purpose. On the two Bills which I referred to earlier—the Education Bill and the Licensing Bill—we got a day for the Third Reading of each. I am not sure that in the case of one of them it was not half a day—a Friday. I thought the Noble Lord (Lord R. Cecil) was going to propose that the day which is to be allocated to the Third Reading should be given to the discussion of Amendments on Report. That, I am bound to say, would have been more worthy of consideration, but his present proposal is one the Government could not possibly assent to.
  Mr. FORSTER: The answer of the right hon. Gentleman to my Noble Friend's Amendment is clearly entirely unsatisfactory. He says that the Government cannot give an extra day for the Third Reading, because if they did the Lords would not have sufficient time for the Second Reading of the Bill. I think that in the interests of fuller discussion those who are responsible for the conduct of business in another place might be able to spare us another day for the Third Reading Debate in this House. At any rate, I think if the interests of the Bill as a whole would be served by the devotion of another day to the Third Reading this House ought to have it. The right hon. Gentleman says the custom has grown up of devoting only one day to the Third Reading of the most controversial measures. There is a very good reason for that. You have a controversial fight the whole way through the Committee and the Report stage, and by that time everybody knows pretty well where they are.
  848
  But that is by no means the case with this Bill. The fact is the Bill we are going to read a third time is not the Bill we read a second time, and half of it we have never discussed. My hon. Friend the Member for Colchester (Mr. Worthington-Evans) has pointed out that twenty-nine Clauses of Part I. of the Bill have never had a single word of discussion upon them, and eighteen of these were passed in a single sitting without anyone having a chance to speak. To-night we have had put from the Chair 470 odd Questions—a proceeding which occupied an hour and a-half of the time of the House. That obviously puts the Bill in an entirely different category from other measures which have been referred to. You cannot, therefore, draw any comparison between this Bill and ordinary measures which are passed, whether with or without the aid of the guillotine. I still hope the Chancellor of the Exchequer may reconsider his decision. The suggestion my Noble Friend has made is perfectly reasonable. There is a very general desire on the part of hon. Members who sit on these Benches to take part in the Third Reading Debate, and unless this extra time is given, very few of them will be able to do so, while those who do take part will, if the time is limited to one day, have to make their speeches exceedingly brief.
  Mr. HUNT: I must say I feel bound to attack the right hon. Gentleman for his attitude in this matter. There are Members of the House who have never been able to speak freely on this Bill at all, and now it is a new Bill. It is entirely different from the Bill which was brought in originally by the Chancellor of the Exchequer. I have never had what I call my head loose on the Bill at all. I must say I should like very much to speak freely on the Bill, and so would a great many other hon. Gentleman. I do not think that it is an unreasonable request that we should have at all events a couple of days for the Third Reading with the Eleven o'Clock Rule suspended, so that hon. Gentlemen could have a chance of speaking on the Bill if they wanted to. I can promise the Chancellor of the Exchequer that wherever I go, and in my own Division, at all events, unless we have this concession, I shall tell the people that the Government would not give a fair chance of discussing the Bill, because they were afraid the absurdity of it would be exposed. I think, in their own interests, therefore, they should give us a proper opportunity of debating the Bill.
  Question put, "That those words be there inserted."
  Mr. HAROLD SMITH: I desire to move a further Amendment to the Chancellor of the Exchequer's motion that after the word "conclusion" ["these proceedings to be brought to a conclusion"] to add the words "provided that no speech on either of the days mentioned in the schedule below shall exceed twenty minutes."
  Mr. SPEAKER: I do not think that would be relevant. That would have to be done by special Order of the House.
  Mr. WATSON RUTHERFORD: As a matter of Order, may I be allowed to press
  The House divided: Ayes, 37; Noes, 120.

  Division No. 418.]

  AYES.

  [12.50 a.m.

  Balcarres, Lord

  Greene, W. R.

  Smith, Harold (Warrington)

  Banbury, Sir Frederick George

  Helmsley, Viscount

  Stanley, Hon. G. F. (Preston)

  Ben, Arthur Shirley (Plymouth)

  Henderson, Major H. (Berks., Abingdon)

  Starkey, John R.

  Benn, Ion H. (Greenwich)

  Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield)

  Stewart, Gershom

  Bigland, Alfred

  Hunt, Rowland

  Thynne, Lord Alexander

  Boscawen, Sir Arthur S. T. Griffith-

  Ingleby, Holcombe

  Wheler, Granville C. H.

  Bridgeman, W. Clive

  Larmor, Sir J.

  Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.)

  Carlile, Sir Edward Hildred

  Locker-Lampson, O. (Ramsey)

  Wood, John (Stalybridge)

  Cecil, Lord Hugh (Oxford University)

  Morrison-Bell, Capt. E. F. (Ashburton)

  Worthington-Evans, L.

  Chaloner, Col. R. G. W.

  Pole-Carew, Sir R.

  Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-

  Dickson, Rt. Hon. C. Scott

  Pryce-Jones, Col. E.

  Eyres-Monsell, B. M.

  Rutherford, Watson (L'pool, W. Derby)

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Lord R. Cecil and Mr. Rawlinson.

  Forster, Henry William

  Sanders, Robert A.

  Gibbs, G. A.

  NOES.

  Acland, Francis Dyke

  Hackett, J.

  Nugent, Sir Walter R.

  Ainsworth, John Stirling

  Hancock, J. G.

  O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

  Allen, Arthur Acland (Dumbartonshire)

  Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose)

  O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)

  Allen, Charles P. (Stroud)

  Harmsworth, Cecil (Luton, Beds.)

  O'Doherty, Philip

  Anderson, A. M.

  Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, W.)

  O'Kelly, Edward P. (Wicklow, W.)

  Baker, H. T. (Accrington)

  Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth)

  O'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, S.)

  Baring, Sir Godfrey (Barnstaple)

  Havelock-Allan, Sir Henry

  Parker, James (Halifax)

  Bentham, G. J.

  Hayden, John Patrick

  Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek)

  Boland, John Pius

  Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

  Pointer, Joseph

  Booth, Frederick Handel

  Higham, John Sharp

  Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H.

  Bowerman, C. W.

  Hobhouse, Rt. Hon. Charles E. H.

  Power, Patrick Joseph

  Boyle, D. (Mayo, N.)

  Horne, Charles Silvester (Ipswich)

  Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central)

  Bryce, J. Annan

  Howard, Hon. Geoffrey

  Price, Sir Robert J. (Norfolk, E.)

  Buxton, Rt. Hon. Sydney C. (Poplar)

  Hughes, S. L.

  Pringle, William M. R.

  Byles, Sir William Pollard

  Hunter, W. (Govan)

  Raffan, Peter Wilson

  Carr-Gomm, H. W.

  Isaacs, Rt. Hon. Sir Rufus

  Rea, Walter Russell (Scarborough)

  Chancellor, H. G.

  Jones, Edgar (Merthyr Tydvil)

  Reddy, M.

  Chapple, Dr. W. A.

  Jones, Leif Stratten (Notts, Rushcliffe)

  Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)

  Clough, William

  Jones, William (Carnarvonshire)

  Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside)

  Collins, G. P. (Greenock)

  Jowett, F. W.

  Robinson, Sidney

  Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.

  Keating, M.

  Rowntree, Arnold

  Cowan, W. H.

  Kellaway, Frederick George

  Russell, Rt. Hon. Thomas W.

  Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth)

  Kennedy, Vincent Paul

  Scanlan, Thomas

  Crawsllay Williams, Eliot

  King, J. (Somerset, N.)

  Sherwell, Arthur James

  Crumley, Patrick

  Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, West)

  Shortt, Edward

  Dawes, J. A.

  Lawson, Sir W. (Cumb'rld, Cockerm'th)

  Simon, Sir John Allsebrook

  Doris, W.

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Smith, Albert (Lancs., Clitheroe)

  Edwards, Clement (Glamorgan, E.)

  Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester)

  Stanley, Albert (Staffs, N. W.)

  Edwards, John Hugh (Glamorgan, Mid)

  Macnamara, Rt. Hon. Dr. T. J.

  Strauss, Edward A. (Southwark, West)

  Elibank, Rt. Hon. Master of

  M'Laren, Hon. F. W. S. (Lincs., Spalding)

  Taylor, John W. (Durham)

  Elverston, Sir Harold

  Markham, Sir Arthur Basil

  Toulmin, Sir George

  Essex, Richard Walter

  Marshall, Arthur Harold

  Ward, W. Dudley (Southampton)

  Ferens, T. R.

  Masterman, C. F. G.

  Webb, H.

  Fiennes, Hon. Eustace Edward

  Meehan, Patrick A. (Queen's Co.)

  Whitehouse, John Howard

  Flavin, Michael Joseph

  Morgan, George Hay

  Whyte, A. F. (Perth)

  George, Rt. Hon. D. Lloyd

  Muldoon, John

  Wiles, Thomas

  Gill, A. H.

  Munro, R.

  Williams, P. (Middlesbrough)

  Gladstone, W. G. C.

  Murray, Capt. Hon. A. C.

  Wood, Rt. Hon. T. McKinnon (Glas.)

  Glanville, H. J.

  Neilson, Francis

  Guest, Major Hon. C. H. C. (Pembroke)

  Nolan, Joseph

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr. Gulland and Mr. Wedgwood Benn.

  Gwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway)

  Norton, Capt. Cecil W.

  the point that the object of the Amendment is to enable more ground to be covered by the discussion. It is very important, and I submit very respectfully that the Amendment of my hon. Friend is quite applicable to a case where we are confining a large amount of business to a specified time, in order to be able to get over the ground.
  Mr. SPEAKER: I would have considerable sympathy with the Amendment if it proposed to cut down the speeches to ten minutes, but I do not think so important a change in the procedure of the

  851
  House can be admitted as an Amendment. It would require a more substantive and more solemn Motion.
  Viscount HELMSLEY: On the original Motion I desire to draw attention to an inaccuracy of the Chancellor of the Exchequer. I wish to point out that he was under a misapprehension when he refused the Amendment of my Noble Friend the Member for North Herts (Lord R. Cecil). We find that the Education Bill of 1902 was discussed for two days on Third Reading, and as the right hon. Gentleman used that Bill as a precedent for this one I think it would have been as well, before using it as an argument for refusing the Amendment of my Noble Friend he should have been more seized of the facts. In addition to the fact that we are not going to be allowed proper time for the Third Reading of this Bill I wish to point out, though we do not consider this Amendment of the guillotine Motion controversial in itself, that it is most hypocritical of the Government to come down at this stage and amend the Motion. It is nothing but an attempt to deceive the country into thinking that this Bill has not been so much closured as it has been—nothing but an attempt to induce the country to believe that we have had adequate discussion. I wish to say, in the clearest possible terms, that we have had no adequate discussion on any part of the Bill. If we had I should like hon. Members to ask themselves what is the supposed value of the Report stage. Not a single Clause of this Bill has been discussed on the Report stage.
  The Chancellor of the Exchequer is apparently surprised that we object to that. He thinks he has only to come here with Amendments and say they are all beneficial to us, or else that they are drafting Amendments. Was ever a more absurd proposition? The Amendments may be improvements: I do not say that they are not; but who are to be the judges of whether the Chancellor of the Exchequer's promises are fulfilled or not? Is it the person who makes the promise or the person to whom it is made? To try to throw on us the onus of accepting or rejecting these Amendments when we have no chance of discussing them is to be hypocritical with the country, and is deceiving this House. The Chancellor of the Exchequer was equally hypocritical in what he said about the Second Reading Debate in the Lords
  852
  —as if he cared one bit about what happens in the Lords! We know he has no regard whatever for that assembly, and that in any case the whole time which the House of Lords has for the discussion of the Bill must be inadequate, because of the exigencies of Parliamentary time, and to enable Parliament to rise before Christmas.
  We know that the whole discussion of this Bill by the House of Lords will be absolutely farcical from beginning to end—only one degree more so than it has been in this House; and farcical for this reason, that if they were to start to amend the Bill properly and discuss it right through, instead of sitting from now to Christmas they would be sitting from now till Christmas next year. I only wished to make these few observations to show that we see the object of this Amendment of the Chancellor of the Exchequer. It is to throw dust in the eyes of the country, to make the country think certain parts of the Bill have been discussed which have not been discussed, and to make the country think our protests against the Closure have not behind them that backing which we know they have.
  Main Question put, and agreed to.

RESIDENT MAGISTRATES (BELFAST) BILL.
Read a second time, and committed to Committee of the Whole House for this day.—[Mr. Gulland.]
MERCHANT SHIPPING BILL.
Read a second time, and committed to Committee of the Whole House for this day.—[Mr. Gulland.]

TELEGRAPH (CONSTRUCTION) BILL.
Lords Amendments considered, and agreed to.
Whereupon Mr. SPEAKER, pursuant to the Order of the House of 24th October, proposed the Question, "That this House do now adjourn."
Question put, and agreed to.
Adjourned accordingly at Five Minutes after One a.m., Friday, 1st December, 1911.