HC Deb 02 May 1911 vol 25 cc319-42

Nothing in this Act shall diminish or qualify the existing rights and privileges,of the House of Commons.

Mr. CASSEL

I beg to move, after the word "qualify" to insert the words "any prerogative or right of the Crown, or."

Exactly the same question arises with regard to this Clause as rose with regard to the last Clause. It is either unnecessary or incomplete. Would any rights or privileges of the House of Commons be diminished or abolished if you leave the Clause out? I submit they would not. If you put it in, and if you think it necessary to have some express safeguard, then you ought to have a, similar safeguard for the rights and prerogatives of the Crown. There might be more reason for putting in such a Clause, so far as the rights and prerogatives of the Crown are concerned than even with regard to the privileges of the House of Commons, because it might be said this Act contains a Preamble which says it is desirable to substitute a Chamber on a popular basis for the present hereditary Chamber, and that would affect the prerogative of the Crown to create hereditary peers with a right to sit in the House of Lords. In that way it might be said, in assenting to the Preamble, the Crown had given up its right subsequently to object to any Bill of Reform of the House of Lords which would curtail the Royal Prerogative by limiting the right of the Crown to create peers. There is, therefore, more necessity for having a Clause providing that the prerogatives and rights of the Crown should not be diminished or qualified than there is with regard to the rights and privileges of the House of Commons. I submit that if the Clause is necessary at all it ought to apply equally to all three parts.

Mr. CHURCHILL

Any Amendment relating to the Crown is unnecessary, but this Clause is not unnecessary. The Bill affects the relations of the two Houses: it does not affect the relations of either House with the Crown: it touches only the relations of the two Houses. It is propel, therefore, that there should be a saving of the existing rights of the House of Commons. The Bill diminishes the rights of the House of Lords, and it expressly confirms the existing rights of the House of Commons and adds thereto. The rights and privileges of the Crown are not involved at all by anything in the measure. The Preamble has no legislative effect, and when other legislation has to be considered then will be the time to introduce a saving clause into the Bill.

Colonel GRIFFITH-BOSCAWEN

If the logic of the Home Secretary is carried out to its proper conclusion the Government must leave out the Preamble of the Bill, which lays it down that in future the Second Chamber is to be substituted by a Chamber constituted on an elective instead of on an hereditary basis. The elective basis presupposes that the Crown cannot create peers. The right hon. Gentleman says this Amendment is not necessary because the Preamble will have no legislative effect. But we can only take the Preamble as we find it. If the Government are going to leave out the Preamble I quite agree the Amendment of my hon. and learned Friend is not necessary, but we have had no announcement that they intend to take that course, and, therefore, we must suppose that the Government means something by the Preamble. If they do mean anything the prerogatives of the Crown are affected. We do not want to pass anything which may affect the prerogatives of the Crown without being aware of the fact.

Lord HUGH CECIL

Why did not the Home Secretary explain why this Clause is necessary to safeguard the privileges of the House of Commons? If those privileges need to be safeguarded, surely the privileges of the Crown and what privileges are left to the House of Lords equally need to be safeguarded. So far as I can see, there is nothing in this Clause about the privileges of the House of Commons from beginning to end, and if the Government has thought it necessary to put in words safeguarding the privileges of the House of Commons naturally hon. Members think that some dangers may arise in respect of the privileges of the other part of the legislature. Perhaps a Member of the Government will explain exactly what this Clause means.

Mr. HERBERT SAMUEL

The first Clause dealt with the relations between the two Houses in matters regarding finance, and it provides that in Money Bills the House of Lords shall not have power to insert Amendments. But there are other privileges of the House of Commons which are not covered by this Clause, there are privileges arising in connection with the money provisions of Bills which are not Money Bills. It was intended that the House of Commons should retain all existing privileges in matters of finance, and, therefore, it is necessary to insert a Clause which will give legislative sanction to certain privileges in the matter of finance. We are not thereby surrendering other privileges.

Lord HUGH CECIL

The whole theory put forward by the right hon. Gentleman is unsound. This House would never vindicate its privileges in a court of law. If it is anxious to insist upon its privileges in any particular respect it does so by Resolution; therefore a Clause of this kind is wholly unnecessary. The House is the judge of its own privileges, and it is therefore superfluous and ridiculous to insert a provision of this kind. It would be much better to leave it, as it has been left in the past, to the discretion and judgment of the House of Commons itself.

Sir F. BANBURY

My hon. and learned Friend has brought forward an Amendment of very great importance, and its point has been missed by hon. Gentlemen opposite. The Amendment provides that prerogatives of the Crown shall still exist, and unless some Amendment of the description is inserted it would be perfectly open for a future Government with the powers now being placed in the House of Commons to do away with some of the most useful prerogatives of the Crown that still remain. Suppose that this Bill has become an Act, and this Government is in power. Suppose it is towards the end of the five years which we are going to enact later on as being the period during which the Parliament may sit. The Government of the day may find themselves in a very unpopular position in the country; they may desire to prolong their existence, and under the powers conferred by this Bill there is absolutely nothing to prevent them passing a measure to prolong the life of Parliament for an indefinite period.

Mr. HERBERT SAMUEL

On a point of Order. The hon. Baronet is arguing that under the powers of this Bill the Government of the day may introduce any Bill which will limit the powers of the Crown. I submit that that does not arise on this Amendment, and the Committee can only consider anything in this Act which shall diminish or qualify the existing rights and privileges of the House of Commons.

The CHAIRMAN (Mr. Emmott)

I think the right hon. Gentleman's contention is quite sound.

Sir F. BANBURY

I bow, of course, to your ruling, but it is rather striking that the Government should find themselves in such a weak position that, being unable to answer the arguments we are going to put forward, they get rid of the difficulty by raising a point of Order. As we know, they generally take refuge in the Closure. But may I point out that it is necessary something of this sort should be put in to prevent the Government under the powers of this Bill altering the Prerogatives of the Crown. Hon. Members may laugh, but if my point is proved, then this Amendment is necessary, and if it is not inserted in this particular Bill the Government will have the power to alter the Prerogatives of the Crown. That is all I desire to say, and I emphasise it by saying that this Bill gives particular powers to a Government to do certain things, and therefore unless there is a safeguard in the measure they may take advantage of the powers conferred by the Bill to alter the Prerogatives of the Crown. I do not wish to controveRt your ruling, Sir, or to transgress the rules of the House, but I believe I am right in endeavouring to argue that unless an Amendment of this sort is put in the Government have powers under this Bill to alter the Prerogatives of the Crown.

The CHAIRMAN

The hon. Baronet must show how that is to be done. If he can show that it can be clone under this Bill he is in order. But he has not done so.

Mr. F. BANBURY

I was intending to do that.

Mr. HERBERT SAMUEL

I am sorry to interrupt the hon. Baronet, but I am only anxious to expedite, as I am sure he is, the business of the Committee. I submit that the hon. Baronet's argument clearly is in favour of an exemption from the operation of Clause 2 of all the Prerogatives of the Crown. That has already been decided on Clause 2.

Sir F. BANBURY

I will endeavour to deal with that point. I take it after the interruption of the Postmaster-General that he and I are arguing the same thing, but I will now endeavour to show the point of my argument. It is this. That this Bill does away with the rights of the Lords to Veto any Bill, and therefore a Bill to alter the Prerogatives of the Crown might be introduced under the provisions of this Bill, and the power of the Lords to Veto it would be done away with.

Lord HUGH CECIL

The Postmaster-General answered in a way which I could not hear, so I did not appreciate the full force of his answer. I want to ask him whether he thinks that there is a danger that the remaining privileges of the House of Commons not affected by Clause 1 will be damaged because of Clause 1, and whether he does not, think also that the circumstances that the Royal Assent is repeatedly mentioned and is always assumed, therefore the implication is much more plainly raised that the power of refusing the Royal Assent is more in danger than any of the privileges of the House of Commons are in danger. Although, however, the danger to the privileges of the House of Commons is dealt with, nothing is said about the danger to the Prerogatives of the Crown.

The CHAIRMAN

That particular point was discussed and decided by the Committee, and it cannot be raised now.

Lord H. CECIL

I beg your pardon. I do not think you quite appreciated my point. The Postmaster-General says in Clause 1 the privileges of the House of Commons are dealt with, and, therefore, it is necessary in this subsequent Clause 4 to insert this provision that they are not affected more than Clause 1 specifically declared. I pointed out in rejoinder to that that the Royal Assent is repeatedly mentioned and assumed in the case of these Money Bills and it may be argued by parity of reasoning, although I admit the argument is unsound, that the power of the Crown in refusing the Royal Assent may be taken away in this Act in the same way that the Postmaster-General argued that the privileges of the House of Commons may be taken away.

10.0 P.M.

Mr. G. J. SANDYS

I desire to make one or two remarks in support of the Amendment, which I think raises a question of very great importance in connection with this constitutional question. I cannot understand the submission which was made by the right hon. Gentleman in reply to the arguments which were brought forward by my hon. Friend when he said that under this readjustment of the relationship between the two Houses the Crown was not affected. I cannot realise how it is in any way possible that we should make the vast constitutional changes which are being proposed by this Parliament Bill and at the same time the Crown is not going to be affected by the result of those changes when they are made. It seems to me that it is quite inevitable that the whole of our Constitution is going to be changed when the whole system under which we have been governed by the three estates of the realm is going to be altered. In regard to that revolutionary change I do not see how the Crown is going to stand clear, and I do not see how right hon. Gentlemen can conscientiously say that the rights and privileges of the Crown are not affected by these proposals. I am sure it is a matter of great regret to hon. Gentlemen on this side that hon. Members opposite have once more relapsed into their accustomed silence, except as far as interruptions are concerned, because I feel sure that were they allowed by the Government—

The CHAIRMAN

The hon. Member is quite irregular.

Mr. SANDYS

The previous observations that had been made by private Members sitting on the other side of the House are very relevant to the subject under discussion. For instance, the hon. Member for Merthyr Tydvil (Mr. Keir Hardie), in a recent speech dealing with this very question raised by this Amendment, said on the 16th of December last year: "When coronets go into the melting pot, the Crown had better beware."

The CHAIRMAN

That does not arise on this Amendment, and the hon. Gentleman must address himself to it.

Mr. SANDYS

I am very sorry if I have in any way gone beyond the scope of this Amendment, but my object was to prove that hon. Members on the other side had, if not in this House but in the country expressed opinions showing that the rights and privileges of the Crown were involved, and they apparently hope they will be involved by these constitutional changes which are proposed in the Parliament Bill.

The CHAIRMAN

That has nothing to do with the question. This Amendment proposes that nothing in this Act shall diminish or qualify any Prerogative or right of the Crown. It is the hon. Member's business to show that it does, and he is not arguing on that point at all.

Mr. PEEL

The suggestion is that no alteration is made in the position of the Crown. May I refer the Attorney-General to the Preamble. It says:—

"Whereas it is intended to substitute for the House of Lords as it at present exists a Second Chamber constituted on a popular instead of a hereditary basis."

The CHAIRMAN

If the hon. Member is going to raise that point he will interfere with the discussion of the Preamble. I strongly advise him from his own point of view not to do so.

Mr. PEEL

Of course, I will not do it if I am raising the Preamble, but I was going to suggest that the Prerogative of the Crown was affected by what is put in the Preamble.

The CHAIRMAN

The Preamble is not supposed to have any enacting effect.

Mr. PEEL

I am perfectly aware of that. It is quite clear upon the Bill that the existing rights and privileges of the House of Commons are not affected. The right hon. Gentleman said—and this was the extent of his argument—that it might be argued from the result of Clause 1 that because you gave certain definite statutory powers to the House of Commons as regards Finance Bills, some of its rights and privileges already existing as regards Finance Bills might be affected. My argu-

ment is very much of the same kind as regards the Crown. If the Crown has once given its assent to a Bill which in its Preamble says a certain thing is intended to be done, surely it might be argued—I am sure the Attorney-General could argue it—that that did affect the right of the Crown to veto a subsequent Bill which was dealing with it. If the Attorney-General says it cannot be argued though the other can I have nothing more to say.

Mr. HERBERT SAMUEL

rose in his place and claimed to move "That the Question be now put."

Question put, "That the Question be now put."

The Committee divided: Ayes, 274; Noes, 147.

Division No. 207.] AYES. [10. 10 p.m.
Abraham, William (Dublin Harbour) Dalziel, Sir James H. (Kirkcaldy) Hinds, John
Abraham, Rt. Hon. William (Rhondda) Davies, E. William (Eifion) Hodge, John
Acland, Francis Dyke Davies, Timothy (Lincs., Louth) Holt, Richard Durning
Adamson, William Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.) Hope, John Deans (Haddington)
Addison, Dr. Christopher Dawes, James Arthur Horne, Charles Silvester (Ipswich)
Alden, Percy Denman, Hon. Richard Douglas Howard, Hon. Geoffrey
Allen, Arthur A. (DumBarton) Devlin, Joseph Hughes, S. L.
Allen, Charles Peter (Stroud) Dillon, John Hunter, William (Lanark, Govan)
Armitage, Robert Doris, William Isaacs, Sir Rufus Daniel
Atherley-Jones, Llewellyn A. Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness) John, Edward Thomas
Baker, H. T. (Accrington) Duncan, J. Hastings (York, Otley) Johnson, William
Baker, Joseph Allen (Finsbury, E.) Edwards, Allen C. (Glamorgan, E.) Jones, Edgar (Merthyr Tydvil)
Balfour, Sir Robert (Lanark) Edwards, Enoch (Hanley) Jones, Henry Haydn (Merianeth)
Barnes, George N. Edwards, John Hugh (Glamorgan, Mid) Jones, Leif Stratten (Notts, Rushcliffe)
Barran, Sir John N. (Hawick, B) Elibank, Rt. Hon. Master of Jones, William (Carnarvonshire)
Barran, Rowland Hirst (Leeds, N.) Elverston, H. Jones, W. S. Glyn- (Stepney)
Barry, Redmond John Esmonde, Dr. John (Tipperary, N.) Joyce, Michael
Barton, William Esmonde, Sir Thomas (Wexford, N.) Keating, Matthew
Beale, W. P. Essex, Richard Walter Kellaway, Frederick George
Beauchamp, Edward Falconer, James Kelly, Edward
Beck, Arthur Cecil Fenwick, Charles Kennedy, Vincent Paul
Henn, W. (T. H'mts., St. George) Ffrench, Peter Kilbride, Denis
Bentham, G. J. Field, William King, Joseph (Somerset, North
Black, Arthur W. Fiennes, Hon. Eustace Edward Lamb, Ernest H.
Boland, John Pius Fitzgibbon, John Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade)
Booth, Frederick Handel Flavin, Michae, Joseph Lansbury, George
Bowerman, Charles W. Gelder, Sir William Alfred Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, West)
Boyle, Daniel (Mayo, N.) Gibson, Sir James Puckering Lawson, Sir W. (Cumb'rld., Cockerm'th)
Brace, William Gill, Alfred Henry Leach, Charles
Brady, P. J. Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford Levy, Sir Maurice
Brigg, Sir John Goldstone, Frank Lewis, John Herbert
Brocklehurst, W. B. Greig, Colonel James William Logan, John William
Burns, Rt. Hon. John Griffith, Ellis Jones Low, Sir F. (Norwich)
Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas Guest, Hon. Frederick E. (Dorset, E.) Lundon, Thomas
Buxton, Noel (Norfolk, North Gwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway) Lynch, Arthur Alfred
Buxton, Rt. Hon. S. C. (Poplar) Hackett, J. Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester)
Byles, William Pollard Hall, F (Ycrks. Normanton) Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk Burghs)
Carr-Gomm, M. W. Hancock, John George Maclean, Donald
Cawley, Harold T. (Heywood) Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose) Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.
Chapple, Dr. William Allen Hardie, J. Keir (Merthyr Tydvil) McNeill, John Gordon Swift
Churchill, Rt. Hon Winston S. Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale) MacVeagh, Jeremiah
Clough, William Harvey, T. E (Leeds, W.) M'Callum, John M.
Clynes, John R. Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N.E.) M'Curdy, Charles Albert
Collins, G. P. (Greenock) Harwood, George McKenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald
Collins, Stephen (Lambeth) Haslam, James (Derbyshire) M'Laren, F. W. S. (Linc., Spalding)
Compton-Rickett, Rt. Hon. Sir J. Havelock-Allan, Sir Henry M'Micking, Major Gilbert
Condon, Thomas Joseph Haworth, Arthur A. Marks, George Croydon
Corbett, A. Cameron Hayden, John Patrick Mason, David M. (Coventry)
Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. Hayward, Evan Masterman, C. F. G.
Cotton, William Francis Helme, Norval Watson Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.)
Crawshay-Williams, Eliot Henderson, Arthur (Durham) Meehan, Patrick A. (Queen's County)
Crooks, William Henry, Sir Charles S. Menzies, Sir Walter
Crumley, Patrick Herbert, COI. Sir Ivor (Mon. S.) Millar, James Duncan
Cullinan, John Higham, John Sharp Molloy, M.
Molteno, Percy Alport Radford, G. H. Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton)
Money, L. G. Chiozza Rea, Rt. Hon. Russell (South Shields) Thorne, William (West Ham)
Morrell, Philip Reddy, Michael Toulmin, George
Morton, Alpheus Cleophas Redmond, John E. (Waterford) Trevelyan, Charles Philips
Munro, Robert Redmond, William (Clare, E.) Ure, Rt. Hon. Alexander
Munro-Ferguson, Rt. Hon. R. C. Rendall, Athelstan Verney, Sir Harry
Nannetti, Joseph P. Richards, Thomas Walsh, Stephen (Lancs., Ince)
Needham, Christopher T. Richardson, Thomas (Whitehaven) Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent)
Neilson, Francis Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln) Ward, W. Dudley (Southampton)
Nicholson, Charles N. (Doncaster) Roberts, George H. (Norwich) Wardle, George J.
Nolan, Joseph Roberts, Sir J. H. (Denbighs.) Warner, Sir Thomas Courtenay
Norman, Sir Henry Robertson, John M. (Tyneside) Wanes, John Cathcart (Orkney)
Norton, Capt. Cecil W. Robinson, Sidney Watt, Henry A.
O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) Roche, Augustine (Louth) Webb, H.
O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.) Roche, John (Galway, E.) Wedgwood, Josiah C.
O'Doherty, Philip Roe, Sir Thomas White, Sir George (Norfolk)
O'Dowd, John Rose, Sir Charles Day White, Sir Luke (Yorks, E.R.)
Ogden, Fred Rowntree, Arnold White, Patrick (Meath, North
O'Grady, James Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter Whitehouse, John Howard
O'Kelly, Edward P. (Wicklow, W.) Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland) Whittaker, Rt. Hon. Sir Thomas P.
O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N.) Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees) Whyte, A. F.
O'Malley, William Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel) Wiles, Thomas
O'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, S.) Scanlan, Thomas Wilkie, Alexander
O'Shaughnessy, P. J. Schwann, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles E. Williams, John (Glamorgan)
O'Sullivan, Timothy Scott,A.MacCallum (Glasgow,Bridgeton) Williams, Llewelyn (Carmarthen)
Palmer, Godfrey Seely, Col. Rt. Hon. J. E. B. Williams, P. (Middlesbrough)
Parker, James (Halifax) Sheehy, David Wilson, Hon. G. G. (Hull, W.)
Pearce, Robert (Staffs., Leek) Sherwell, Arthur James Wilson, John (Durham, Mid)
Pearce, William (Limehouse) Simon, Sir John Allsebrook Wilson, J. W. (Worcestershire, N.)
Pearson, Hon. Weetman H. M. Smith, Albert (Lancs., Clitheroe) Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)
Phillips, John (Longford, S.) Smith, H. B. L. (Northampton) Winfrey, Richard
Pickersgill, Edward Hare Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.) Wood, T. M'Kinnon (Glasgow)
Pointer, Joseph Snowden, Philip Young, Samuel (Cavan, East)
Pollard, Sir George H. Stanley, Albert (Staffs, N.W.) Young, W. (Perthshire, E.)
Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H. Strachey, Sir Edward
Price, Sir Robert J. (Norfolk, E.) Summers, James Woolley
Priestley, Sir W. E. B. (Bradford, E) Sutton, John E. TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr.
Primrose, Hon. Neil James Taylor, John W. (Durham) Illingwarth and Mr. Gulland.
Pringle, William M. R. Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)
NOES.
Acland-Hood, Rt. Hon. Sir Alex. F. Craig, Norman (Kent, Thanet) Kerry, Earl of
Altken, William Max Craik, Sir Henry Kirkwood, John H. M.
Anson, Sir William Reynell Crichton-Stuart, Lord Ninian Lane-Fox, G R.
Arkwright, John Stanhope Dalrymple, Viscount Larmor, Sir J.
Ashley, Wilfrid W. Dickson, Rt. Hon. C. S. Law, Andrew Bonar (Bootle, Lancs.)
Astor, Waldorf Dixon, Charles Harvey Lee, Arthur Hamilton
Baker, Sir Randolf L. (Dorset, N.) Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers Locker-Lampson, O. (Ramsey)
Balcarres, Lord Du Cros, Arthur Philip Lockwood, Rt. Hon. Lt.-Col. A. R.
Baldwin, Stanley Duke, Henry Edward Long, Rt. Hon. Walter
Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (City Lond.) Eyres-Monsell, (Bolton M.) Lonsdale, G. Brownlee
Banbury, Sir Frederick George Faber, Capt. W. V. (Hants. W.) Lyttelton, Hon. J. C. (Droitwich)
Baring, Capt. Hon. G. V. Fell, Arthur MacCaw, Wm. J. MacGeagh
Barlow, Montague (Salford, South) Fitzroy, Hon. Edward A. Mackinder, Halford J.
Barnston, Harry Fletcher, John Samuel (Hampstead) Macmaster, Donald
Barrie, H. T. (Londonderry, N.) Foster, Philip Staveley M'Calmont, Colonel James
Bathurst, Hon. Allen B. (Glouc., E.) Gardner, Ernest Magnus, Sir Philip
Bathurst, Charles (Wilts, Wilton) Gibbs, George Abraham Malcolm, Ian
Beckett, Hon. William Gervase Goldsmith, Frank Mason, James F. (Windsor)
Benn, Ion Hamilton (Greenwich) Goulding, Edward Alfred Meysey-Thompson, E. C.
Bennett-Goldney, Francis Grant, J. A. Mildmay, Francis Bingham
Bentinck, Lord H. Cavendish Greene, Walter Raymond Newman, John R. P.
Bigland, Alfred Guinness, Hon. W. E. Nield, Herbert
Bird, A. Hall, D. B. (Isle of Wight) O'Neill, Hon. A. E. B. (Antrim, Mid.)
Boscawen, Col. Sackville T. Griffith- Hall, Fred (Dulwich) Orde-Powlett, Hon. W. G. A.
Boyton, J. Hamilton, Marquess of (Londonderry) Paget, Almeric Hugh
Bridgeman, William Clive Hardy, Laurence (Kent, Ashford) Parker, Sir Gilbert (Gravesend)
Bull, Sir William James Harris, Henry Percy Parkes, Ebenezer
Burdett-Carats, William Helmsley, Viscount Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington)
Burn, Col. C. R. Henderson, Major H. (Barks, Abingdon) Peel, Hon. W. R. W. (Taunton)
Butcher, J. G. Hill, Sir Clement L. (Shrewsbury) Perkins, Walter Frank
Campion, W. R. Hillier, Dr. A. P. Pollock, Ernest Murray
Carlile, Edward Hildred Hill-Wood, S. (High Peak) Pretyman, Ernest George
Cassel, Felix Hoare, Samuel John Gurney Pryce-Jones, Col. E.
Castlereagh, Viscount Hope, Harry (Bute) Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel
Cator, John Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield) Rawson, Colonel Richard H.
Cautley, Henry Strother Horner, Andrew Long Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall)
Cave, George Houston, Robert Paterson Rolleston, Sir John
Cecil, Lord Hugh (Oxford University) Hume-Williams, William Ellis Royds, Edmund
Chaloner, Col. R. G. W. Hunter, Sir C. R. (Bath) Rutherford, W. (Liverpool, W. Derby)
Clive, Captain Percy Archer Ingleby, Holcombe Salter, Arthur Clavell
Clyde, James Avon Joynson-Hicks, William Sanders, Robert A.
Craig, Charles Curtis (Antrim, S.) Kebty-Fletcher, J. R. Sandys, G. J. (Somerset, Wells)
Stanler, Beville Terrell, George (Wilts, N.W) Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset, W.)
Stanley, Hon. G. F. (Preston) Terrell, Henry (Gloucester) Willoughby, Major Hon. Claude
Steel-Maitland, A. D. Thomson, W. Mitchell (Down, N.) Wood, Hon. E. F. L. (Ripon)
Stewart, Gershom Tryon, Capt. George Clement Yate, Col. C. E.
Strauss, Arthur (Paddington, North Walker, Colonel William Hall
Swift, Rigby Ward, Arnold (Herts, Watford) TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Viscount
Sykes, Alan John Wheler, Granville C. H. Valentia and Mr. H. W. Forster.
Talbot, Lard E. White, Major G. D. (Lancs., Southport)

Question put accordingly, "That those words be there inserted."

The Committee divided: Ayes, 152; Noes, 278.

Division No. 208.] AYES. [10.18 p.m.
Acland-Hood, Rt. Hon. Sir Alex. F. Fell, Arthur Magnus, Sir Philip
Altken, William Max. Fisher, W. Hayes Mason, James F. (Windsor)
Anson, Sir William Reynell Fitzroy, Hon. Edward A. Meysey-Thompson, E. C.
Arkwright, John Stanhope Fletcher, John Samuel (Hampstead) Mildmay, Francis Bingham
Ashley, W. W. Forster, Henry William Newman, John R. P.
Astor, Waldorf Foster, Philip Staveley Nield, Herbert
Baird, John Lawrence Gardner, Ernest O'Neill, Hon. A. E. B. (Antrim, Mid
Baker, Sir Randall L. (Dorset, N.) Gibbs, George Abraham Orde-Powlett, Hon. W. G. A.
Baicarres, Lord Goldman, Charles Sydney Paget, Almeria Hugh
Baldwin, Stanley Goldsmith, Frank Parker, Sir Gilbert (Gravesend)
Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (City Lend) Goulding, Edward Alfred Parkes, Ebenezer
Banbury, Sir Frederick George Grant, James Augustus Pease; Herbert Pike (Darlington)
Baring, Capt. Hon. Guy Victor Greene, Walter Raymond Peel, Hon. W. R. W. (Taunton)
Barlow, Montague (Salford, South) Guinness, Hon. Walter Edward Perkins, Walter Frank
Barnston, Harry Hall, D. B. (Isle of Wight) Pollock, Ernest Murray
Barrie, H. T (Londonderry, N.) Hall, Fred (Dulwich) Pretyman, Ernest George
Bathurst, Hon. Allen B. (Glouc., E.) Hamersley, Alfred St. George Pryce-Jones, Colonel E.
Bathurst, Charles (Wilts, Wilton) Hamilton, Marquess of (Londonderry) Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel
Beckett, Hon. William Gervase Hardy, Laurence (Kent, Ashford) Rawson, Col. Richard H.
Bennett-Goldney, Francis Harris, Henry Percy Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall)
Bentinck, Lord Henry Cavendish Helmsley, Viscount Rolleston, Sir John
Bigland, Alfred Henderson, Major H. (Berkshire) Royds, Edmund
Bird, Alfred Hill, Sir Clement L. (Shrewsbury) Rutherford, Watson (L'pool, W. Derby)
Boscawen, Sackville T. Griffith- Hillier, Dr. Alfred Peter Salter, Arthur Clavell
Boyton, James Hill-Wood, Samuel Sanders, Robert Arthur
Bridgeman, William Clive Hoare, Samuel John Gurney Sandys, G. J. (Somerset, Wells)
Bull, Sir William James Hohler, Gerald Fitzroy Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)
Burdett-Coutts, William Hope, Harry (Bute) Stanler, Seville
Burn, Colonel C. R. Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield) Stanley, Hon. G. F. (Preston)
Butcher, John George (York) Horner, Andrew Long Steel-Maitland, A. D.
Campion, W. R. Houston, Robert Paterson Stewart, Gershom
Carlile, Edward Hildred Hume-Williams, William Ellis Strauss, Arthur (Paddington, North
Castlereagh, Viscount Hunter, Sir Charles Rodk. (Bath) Swift, Rigby
Cator, John Ingleby, Holcombe Sykes, Alan John
Cautley, Henry Strother Jardine, Ernest (Somerset, East) Talbot, Lord Edmund
Cave, George Joynson-Hicks, William Terrell, George (Wilts, N.W.)
Cecil, Lord Hugh (Oxford University) Kebty-Fletcher, J. R. Terrell, Henry (Gloucester)
Chaloner, Col. R. G. W. Kerry, Earl of Thomson, W. Mitchell (Down, N.)
Clive, Percy Archer Kirkwood, John H. M. Tryon, Capt. George Clement
Clyde, James Avon Lane-Fox, G. R. Valentia, Viscount
Craig, Charles Curtis (Antrim, S.) Larmor, Sir J. Walker, Col. William Hall
Craig, Norman (Kent, Thanet) Law, Andrew Sonar (Bootle, Lancs.) Ward, A. S. (Herts, Watford)
Craik, Sir Henry Lee. Arthur Hamilton Wheler, Granville C. H.
Crichton-Stuart, Lord Ninian Locker-Lampoon, O. (Ramsey) White, Major G. D. (Lancs., Southport)
Dalrymple, Viscount Lockwood, Rt. Hon. Lt.-Col. A. R. Williams, Col. R. (Dorset. W.)
Dickson, Rt. Hon. C. S. Long, Rt. Hon. Walter Willoughby, Major Hon. Claude
Dixon, Charles Harvey (Boston) Lonsdale, John Brownlee Wood, Hon. E. F. L. (Yorks, Ripon)
Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- Lyttelton, Hon. J. C. (D1oltwich) Yate, Col. C. E.
Du Cros, Arthur Philip MacCaw, Wm. J. MacGeagh
Duke, Henry Edward Mackinder, Halford J. TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr.
Eyres-Monsell, Bolton M. Macmaster, Donald Cassel and Mr. Malcolm.
Faber, Capt. W. V. (Hants, W.) M'Calmont, Colonel James
NOES.
Abraham, William (Dublin Harbour) Balfour, Sir Robert (Lanark) Booth, Frederick Handel
Abraham, Rt. Hon. William (Rhondda) Barnes, George N. Bowerman, Charles W.
Acland, Francis Dyke Barran, Sir John N. (Hawick) Boyle, Daniel (Mayo, North
Adamson, William Barran, Rowland Hirst (Leeds, N.) Brace, William
Addison, Dr. Christopher Barry, Redmond John (Tyrone, N.) Brady, Patrick Joseph
Adkins, W. Ryland D. Barton, William Brigg, Sir John
Alden, Percy Beale, William Phipson Brocklehurst, William B.
Allen, Arthur A. (DumBarton) Beauchamp, Edward Burns, Rt. H on. John
Allen, Charles Peter (Stroud) Beck, Arthur Cecil Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas
Armitage, Robert Benn, W. (T. H'mts., St. George) Buxton, Noel (Norfolk, North
Atherley-Jones, Llewellyn A. Bentham, George J. Buxton, Rt. Hon. S. C. (Poplar)
Baker, Harold T. (Accrington) Black, Arthur W. Bytes, William Pollard
Baker, Joseph Allen (Finsbury, E.) Boland, John Pius Carr-Gomm, H. W.
Cawley, Sir Frederick (Prestwich) John, Edward Thomas Priestley, Sir W. E. B. (Bradford, E.)
Cawley, H. T. (Lancs., Heywood) Johnson, William Primrose, Hon. Neil James
Chapple, Dr. William Allen Jones, Edgar R. (Merthyr Tydvil) Pringle, William M. R.
Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston S. Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) Radford, George Heynes
Clough, William Jones, Leif Stratten (Notts, Rushcliffe) Raphael, Sir Herbert Henry
Clynes, John R. Jones, William (Carnarvonshire) Rea, Rt. Hon. Russell (South Shields)
Collins, Godfrey P. (Greenock) Jones, W. S. Glyn- (Stepney) Reddy, Michael
Collins, Stephen (Lambeth) Joyce, Michael Redmond, John E. (Waterford)
Compton-Rickett, Sir J Keating, Matthew Redmond, William (Clare, E.)
Condon, Thomas Joseph Kellaway, Frederick George Rendall, Athelstan
Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow) Kelly, Edward Richards, Thomas
Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. Kennedy, Vincent Paul Richardson, Thomas (Whitehaven)
Cotton, William Francis Klibride, Denis Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)
Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth) King, Joseph (Somerset, North Roberts, George (Norwich)
Crawshay-Williams, Eliot Lamb, Ernest Henry Roberts, Sir J. H. (Denbighs)
Crooks, William Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade) Robertson, John M. (Tyneside)
Crumley, Patrick Lansbury, George Robinson, Sidney
Cullinan, John Law, Hugh Alex. (Donegal, W.) Roche, Augustine (Louth)
Dalziel, Sir James H. (Kirkcaldy) Lawson, Sir W. (Cumb'rid, Cockerrn'th) Roche, John (Galway, E.)
Davies, Ellis William (Eifion) Leach, Charles Roe, Sir Thomas
Davies, Timothy (Lincs., Louth) Levy, Sir Maurice Rose, Sir Charles Day
Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.) Lewis, Join Herbert Rowntree, Arnold
Dawes, James Arthur Logan, John William Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter
Denman, Hon. Richard Douglas Low, Sir Frederick (Norwich) Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland)
Devlin, Joseph London, Thomas Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees)
Dillon, John Lynch, Arthur Alfred Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel)
Doris, William Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester) Scanlan, Thomas
Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness) Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk Burghs) Schwann, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles E.
Duncan, J. Hastings (York, Otley) Maclean, Donald Scott,A. MacCallum (Glasgow, Bridgeton)
Edwards, Allen C. (Glamorgan, E.) Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J. Seely, Col. Rt. Hon. J. E. B.
Edwards, Enoch (Hanley) MacNeill, John Gordon Swift Sheehy, David
Edwards, John Hugh (Glamorgan, Mid) MacVeagh, Jeremiah Sherwell, Arthur James
Elibank, Rt. Hon. Master of M'Callum, John M. Simon, Sir John Allsebrook
Elverstan, Harold M'Curdy, Charles Albert Smith, Albert (Lanes., Chtheroe)
Esmonde, Dr. John (Tipperary, N.) McKenna, Rt. Hon, Reginald Smith, H. B. Lees (Northampton)
Esmonde, Sir Thomas (Wexford, N.) M'Laren, F. W. S. (Lincs., Spalding) Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.)
Essex, Richard Walter M'Micking, Major Gilbert Snowden, Philip
Falconer, James Marks, George Croydon Stanley, Albert (Staffs., N.W.)
Fenwick, Charles Mason, David M. (Coventry) Strachey, Sir Edward
Ffrench, Peter Masterman, C. F. G. Summers, James Woolley
Field, William Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.) Sutton, John E.
Flennes, Hon. Eustace Edward Meehan, Patrick A. (Queen's Co.) Taylor, John W. (Durham)
Fitzgibbon, John Menzies, Sir Walter Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)
Flavin, Michael Joseph Millar, James Duncan Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton)
Gelder, Sir William Alfred Molloy, Michael Thorne, William (West Ham)
Gibson, Sir James Puckering Molteno, Percy Alport Toulmin, George
Gill, Alfred Henry Money, L. G. Chiozza Trevelyan, Charles Philips
Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford Morrell, Philip Ure, Rt. Hon. Alexander
Goldstone, Frank Morton, Alpheus Cleophas Verney, Sir H.
Greig, Colonel James William Munro, Robert Walsh, Stephen (Lancs., Ince)
Griffith, Ellis Jones (Anglesey) Munro-Ferguson, Rt. Hon. R. C. Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent)
Guest, Hon. Frederick E. (Dorset, E.) Nannetti, Joseph P. Ward, W. Dudley (Southampton)
Gwynne, Stephen Lucius (Galway) Needham, Christopher T. Wardle, G. J.
Hackett, John Neilson, Francis Warner, Sir Thomas Courtenay
Hall, F. (Yorks, Normanton) Nicholson, Charles N. (Doncaster) Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney)
Hancock, John George Nolan, Joseph Watt, Henry A.
Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose) Norman, Sir Henry Webb, H.
Hardie, J. Keir (Merthyr Tydvil) Norton, Captain Cecil William Wedgwood, Josiah C.
Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale) O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) White, Sir George (Norfolk)
Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, West) O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.) White, Sir Luke (York, E.R.)
Harvey, W E. (Derbyshire, N.E.) O'Doherty, Philip White, Patrick (Meath, North
Harwood, George O'Dowd, John Whitehouse, John Howard
Haslam, James (Derbyshire) Ogden, Fred Whittaker, Rt. Hon. Sir Thomas P.
Havelock-Allan, Sir Henry O'Grady, James Whyte, Alexander F. (Perth)
Haworth, Arthur A. O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N.) Wiles, Thomas
Hayden, John Patrick O'Kelly, Edward P. (Wicklow, W.) Wilkie, Alexander
Hayward, Evan O'Malley, William Williams, John (Glamorgan)
Helme, Norval Watson O'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, S.) Williams, Llewelyn (Carmarthen)
Henderson, Arthur (Durham) O'Shaughnessy, P. J. Williams, Penry (Middlesbrough)
Henry, Sir Charles O'Sullivan, Timothy Wilson, Hon. G. G. (Hull, W.)
Herbert, Col, Sir Ivor (Mon. S.) Palmer, Godfrey Mark Wilson, John (Durham, Mid)
Higham, John Sharp Parker, James (Halifax) Wilson, J. W. (Worcestershire, N.)
Hinds, John Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek) Wilson W. T. (Westhoughton)
Hodge, John Pearce, William (Limehouse) Winfrey, Richard
Holt, Richard Durning Pearson, Hon. Weetman H. M. Wood, T. M`Kinnon (Glasgow)
Hope, John Deans (Haddington) Phillips, John (Longford, S.) Young, Samuel (Cavan, East)
Horne, C. Silvester (Ipswich) Pickersgill, Edward Hare Young, William (Perth, East)
Howard, Hon. Geoffrey Pointer, Joseph
Hughes, Spencer Leigh Pollard, Sir George H. TELLERS FOR THE NOES.-Mr.
Hunter, William (Lanark, Govan) Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H. Illingworth and Mr. Gulland.
Isaacs, Sir Rufus Daniel Price, Sir Robert J. (Norfolk, E.)
Mr. CHURCHILL

rose in his place and claimed to move, "That the Question, 'That the Clause stand part of the Bill,' be now put."

Question put, "That the Question 'That the Clause stand part of the Bill' be now put."

Mr. JAMES HOPE

(seated and wearing his hat): Yesterday I had an Amendment on Clause 2 which you ruled that I should put down on this Clause, and under this procedure it cannot be discussed.

The CHAIRMAN

I had already told the hon. Member privately that I had gone into the matter again carefully, and that I did not consider his Amendment in order.

Mr. JAMES HOPE

If this Clause is passed I shall be unable to move that those

words be inserted at the end of the Clause, in spite of your ruling, Sir, that it was not in order on Clause 2, and that it would be in order on this Clause.

Colonel GRIFFITH-BOSCAWEN

(seated and wearing his hat): May I ask that you will give your ruling, Sir, on the point raised by the hon. Member for Central Sheffield?

The CHAIRMAN

I have given my ruling. The Amendment is not in order on this Clause.

The Committee divided: Ayes, 278; Noes, 153.

Division No. 209.] AYES [10.28 p.m.
Abraham, William (Dublin Harbour) Davies, Ellis William (Eifion) Horne, C. Silvester (Ipswich)
Abraham, Rt. Hon. William (Rhondda) Davies, Timothy (Lincs., Louth) Howard, Hon. Geoffrey
Acland, Francis Dyke Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.) Hughes, Spencer Leigh
Adamson, William Dawes, James Arthur Hunter, Wm. (Lanark, Govan)
Addison, Dr. Christopher Denman, Hon. Richard Douglas Isaacs, Sir Rufus Daniel
Adkins, W. Ryland D. Devlin, Joseph John, Edward Thomas
Ainsworth, John Stirling Dillon, John Johnson, William
Alden, Percy Doris, William Jones Edgar R. (Merthyr Tydvil)
Allen, Arthur A. (DumBarton) Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness) Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)
Allen, Charles Peter (Stroud) Duncan, J. Hastings (York, Otley) Jones, Leif Stratten (Notts, Rushcliffe)
Armitage, Robert Edwards, Allen C. (Glamorgan, E.) Jones, William (Carnarvonshire)
Atherley-Jones, Llewellyn A. Edwards, Enoch (Hanley) Jones, W. S. Glyn- (Stepney)
Baker, Harold T. (Accrington) Edwards, John Hugh (Glamorgan, Mid) Joyce, Michael
Baker, Joseph Allen (Finsbury, E.) Elibank, Rt. Hon. Master of Keating, Matthew
Balfour, Sir Robert (Lanark) Elverston, Harold Kellaway, Frederick George
Barnes, George N. Esmonde, Dr. John (Tipperary, N) Kelly, Edward
Barran, Sir John N. (Hawick) Esmonde, Sir Thomas (Wexford, N.) Kennedy, Vincent Paul
Barran, Rowland Hirst (Leeds, N.) Essex, Richard Walter King, Joseph (Somerset, North
Barry, Redmond John (Tyrone, N.) Falconer, James Lamb, Ernest Henry
Barton, William Fenwick, Charles Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade)
Beauchamp, Edward Ffrench, Peter Lansbury, George
Beck, Arthur Cecil Field, William Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, W.)
Benn, W. (T. Waits., St. George) Fiennes, Hon. Eustace Edward Lawson Sir W. (Cumb'rld, Cockerm'th)
Bentham, George J. Fitzgibbon, John Leach, Charles
Black, Arthur W. Flavin, Michael Joseph Levy, Sir Maurice
Boland, John Pius Gelder, Sir William Alfred Lewis, John Herbert
Booth, Frederick Handel Gibson, Sir James Puckering Logan, John William
Bowerman, Charles W. Gill, Alfred Henry Low, Sir Frederick (Norwich)
Boyle, Daniel (Mayo, North Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford Lundon, Thomas
Brace, William Goldstone, Frank Lynch, A. A.
Brady, Patrick Joseph Greenwood, Granville G. (Peterborough) Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester)
Brigg, Sir John Greig, Colonel James William Macdonald. J. M. (Falkirk Burghs)
Brocklehurst, William B. Griffith, Ellis Jones Maclean, Donald
Burns, Rt. Hon. John Guest, Hon. Frederick E. (Dorset, E.) Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.
Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas Gwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway) MacNeill, John Gordon Swift
Buxton, Noel (Norfolk, N.) Hackett, John MacVeagh, Jeremiah
Buxton, Rt. Hon. S. C. (Poplar) Hall, Frederick (Normanton) M'Callum, John M.
Bytes, William Pollard Hancock, J. G. M'Curdy, Charles Albert
Carr-Gomm, H. W. Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose) McKenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald
Cawley, Sir Frederick (Prestwich) Hardie, J. Keir (Merthyr Tydvil) M'Laren, F. W. S. (Line., Spalding)
Cawley, H. T. (Lancs., Heywood) Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale) M'Laren, Walter S. B. (Ches., Crewe)
Chapple, Dr. William Allen Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, W.) M'Micking, Major Gilbert
Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston S. Harvey, W E. (Derbyshire, N.E.) Marks, George Croydon
Clough, William Harwood, George Mason, David M. (Coventry)
Clynes, John R. Haslam, James (Derbyshire) Masterman, C. F. G.
Collins, Godfrey P. (Greenock) Havelock-Allan, Sir Henry Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.)
Collins, Stephen (Lambeth) Haworth, Arthur A. Meehan, Patrick A. (Queen's Co.)
Compton-Rickett, Rt. Hon. Sir J. Hayden, John Patrick Menzies, Sir Walter
Condon, Thomas Joseph Hayward, Evan Millar, James Duncan
Corbett, A. Cameron Helme, Norval Watson Molloy, Michael
Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. Henderson, Arthur (Durham) Molteno, Percy Alport
Cotton, William Francis Henry, Sir Charles Money, L. G. Chiozza
Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth) Herbert. Col. Sir Ivor (Mon. S.) Morrell, Philip
Crawshay-Williams, Eliot Higham, John Sharp Morton, Alpheus Cleophas
Crooks, William Hinds, John Munro, Robert
Crumley, Patrick Hodge, John Munro-Ferguson, Rt. Hon. R. C.
Cullman, John Holt, Richard Durning Nannetti, Joseph P.
Dalziel, Sir James H. (Kirkcaldy) Hope, John Deans (Haddington) Needham, Christopher T.
Neilson, Francis Redmond, William (Clare) Toulmin, George
Nicholson, Charles N. (Doncaster) Rendall, Athelstan Trevelyan, Charles Philips
Nolan, Joseph Richards, Thomas Ure, Rt. Hon, Alexander
Norman, Sir Henry Richardson, Thomas (Whitehaven) Verney, Sir H.
Norton, Captain Cecil William Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln) Walsh, Stephen (Lancs., Ince)
O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) Roberts, George (Norwich) Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent)
O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.) Roberts, Sir J. H. (Denbighs.) Ward, W. Dudley (Southampton)
O'Doherty, Philip Robertson, John M. (Tyneside) Wardle, G. J.
O'Dowd, John Robinson, Sidney Warner, Sir Thomas Courtenay
Ogden, Fred Roche, Augustine (Louth) Wason, Rt. Hon. E. (Clackmannan)
O'Grady, James Roche, John (Galway, E.) Watt, Henry A.
O'Kelly, Edward P. (Wicklow, W.) Roe, Sir Thomas Webb, H.
O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N.) Rose, Sir Charles Day Wedgwood, Josiah C.
O'Malley, William Rowntree, Arnold White, Sir George (Norfolk)
O'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, S.) Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter White, Sir Luke (York, E.R.)
O'Shaughnessy, P. J. Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland) White, Patrick (Meath, North
O'Sullivan, Timothy Samuel, J. (Stockten-on-Tees) Whitehouse, John Howard
Palmer, Godfrey Mark Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel) Whittaker. Rt. Hon. Sir Thomas P.
Parker, James (Halifax) Scanlan, Thomas Whyte, Alexander F. (Perth)
Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek) Schwann, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles E. Wiles, Thomas
Pearce, William (Limehouse) Scott,A. MacCallum (Glasgow,Bridgeton) Wilkie, Alexander
Pearson, Hon. Weetman H. M. Seely, Col. Rt. Hon. J. E. B. Williams, John (Glamorgan)
Pease, Rt. Hon. Joseph A. (Rotherham) Sheehy, David Williams, Llewelyn (Carmarthen)
Phillips, John (Longford, S.) Sherwell, Arthur James Williams, Penry (Middlesbrough)
Pickersgill, Edward Hare Simon, Sir John Allsebrook Wilson, Hon. G. G. (Hull, W.)
Pointer, Joseph Smith, Albert (Lancs., Clitheroe) Wilson, John (Durham, Mid)
Pollard, Sir George H. Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.) Wilson, J. W. (Worcestershire, N.)
Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H. Snowden, Philip Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)
Price, Sir Robert J. (Norfolk, E.) Stanley, Albert (Staffs., N.W.) Wood, T. M'Kinnon (Glasgow)
Priestley, Sir W. E. B. (Bradford, E.) Strachey, Sir Edward Young, Samuel (Cavan, East)
Pringle, William M. R. Summers, James Woolley Young, William (Perth, East)
Radford, George Heynes Sutton, John E.
Raphael, Sir Herbert Henry Taylor, John W. (Durham)
Rea, Rt. Hon. Russell (South Shields) Taylor, T. C. (Radcliffe) TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr.
Reddy, Michael Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton) Illingworth and Mr. Gilland.
Redmond, John E. (Waterford) Thorne, William (West Ham)
NOES.
Altken, William Max. Dixon, Charles Harvey Kirkwood, John H. M.
Anson, Sir William Reynell Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- Lane-Fox, G. R.
Arkwright, John Stanhope Du Cros Arthur Philip Larmor, Sir J.
Ashley, W. W. Duke, Henry Edward Law, Andrew Bonar (Bootle, Lancs.)
Astor, Waldorf Eyres-Monsell, Bolton M. Lee, Arthur Hamilton
Baird, John Lawrence Faber, Capt. W. V. (Hants, W.) Locker-Lampson, O. (Ramsey)
Baker, Sir Randolf L. (Dorset, N.) Fell, Arthur Lockwood, Rt. Hon. Lt.-Col. A. R.
Balcarres, Lord Fisher, W. Hayes Long, Rt. Hon. Walter
Baldwin, Stanley Fitzroy, Hon. Edward A. Lonsdale, John Brownlee
Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (City, Lond.) Fletcher, John Samuel (Hampstead) Lyttelton, Hon. J. C. (Droitwich)
Banbury, Sir Frederick George Forster, Henry William MacCaw, Wm J. MacGeagh
Baring, Captain Hon. Guy Victor Foster, Philip Staveley Mackinder, Halford J.
Barlow, Montague (Salford, South) Gardner, Ernest Macmaster, Donald
Barnston, Harry Gibbs, George Abraham M'Calmont, Colonel James
Barrie, H. T. (Londonderry, N.) Goldman, C. S Magnus, Sir Philip
Bathurst, Hon. Allen B. (Glouc., E.) Goldsmith, Frank Malcolm, Ian
Bathurst, Charles (Wilts, Wilton) Goulding, Edward Alfred Mason, James F (Windsor)
Beckett, Hon. William Gervase Grant, James Augustine Meysey-Thompson, E C.
Benn, Ion Hamilton (Greenwich) Greene, Walter Raymond Mildmay, Francis Bingham
Bennett-Goldney, Francis Guinness, Hon. Walter Edward Newman, John R P.
Bentinck, Lord H. Cavendish Haddock, George Bahr Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield)
Bigland, Alfred Hall, D. B. (Isle of Wight) Meld, Herbert
Bird, Alfred Hall, Fred (Dulwich) O'Neill, Hon. A. E. B. (Antrim, Mid)
Boscawen, Col. Sackville T. Griffith- Hamersley, Alfred St. George Orde-Powiett, Hon. W. G. A.
Boyton, James Hamilton, Marquess of (Londonderry) Paget, Almeric Hugh
Bridgman, William Clive Hardy, Laurence (Kent, Ashford) Parker, Sir Gilbert (Gravesend)
Bull, Sir William James Harris, Henry Percy Parkes, Ebenezer
Burdett-Coutts, William Helmsley, Viscount Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington)
Burn, Colonel C. R. Henderson, Major H. (Berkshire) Peel, Hon. W. R. W. (Taunton)
Butcher, John George Hill, Sir Clement L. (Shrewsbury) Perkins, Walter Frank
Campion, W. R. Hillier, Dr. Alfred Peter Pollock, Ernest Murray
Carlile, Edward Hildred Hill-Wood, Samuel Pretyman, Ernest George
Cassel, Felix Hoare, Samuel John Gurney Pryce-Jones, Colonel E.
Castlereagh, Viscount Hohler, Gerald Fitzroy Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel
Cator, John Hope, Harry (Bute) Rawson, Col. Richard H.
Cautley, Henry Strother Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield) Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall)
Cave, George Horner, A. L. Rolleston, Sir John
Cecil, Lord Hugh (Oxford University) Houston, Robert Paterson Rutherford, Watson (L'poel, W. Derby)
Chaloner, Col. R. G. W. Hume-Williams, William Ellis Salter, Arthur Clavell
Clive, Percy Archer Hunter. Sir Charles Rodk. (Bath) Sanders, Robert Arthur
Clyde, James Avon Ingleby, Holcombe Sandys, G. J. (Somerset, Wells)
Craig, Norman (Kent, Thanet) Jardine, Ernest (Somerset, East) Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)
Craik, Sir Henry Joynson-Hicks, William Stonier, Beville
Crichton-Stuart, Lord Ninian Kebty-Fletcher, J. R. Stanley, Hon. G. F. (Preston)
Dalrymple, Viscount Kerry, Earl of Steel-Maitland, A. D.
Stewart, Gershom Thomson, W. Mitchell (Down, N.) Willoughby, Major Hon. Claude
Strauss, Arthur (Paddington, North Tryon, Capt. George Clement Wood, Hon. E. F. L. (Yorks, Ripon)
Swift, Rigby Walker, Col. William Hall Yate, Col. C. E. (Leics., Melton)
Sykes, Alan John Ward, Arnold (Herts, Watford)
Talbot, Lord Edmund Wheler, Granville C. H. TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Sir A.
Terrell, George (Wilts, N.W.) White, Major G. D. (Lancs., Southport) Acland-Hood and Viscount Valentia.
Terrell, Henry (Gloucester) Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.)

Question put accordingly, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."

The Committee divided: Ayes, 285; Noes, 158.

Division No. 210.] AYES. [10.40 p.m.
Abraham, William (Dublin Harbour) Doris, William King, J. (Somerset, N.)
Abraham, Rt. Hon. William (Rhondda) Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness) Lamb, Ernest Henry
Acland, Francis Dyke Duncan, J. Hastings (York, Otley) Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade)
Adamson, William Edwards, Allen C. (Glamorgan, E.) Lansbury, George
Addison, Dr. Christopher Edwards, Enoch (Hanley) Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, West)
Adkins, W. Ryland D. Edwards, John Hugh (Glamorgan, Mid) Lawson, Sir W. (Cumb'rld.,Cockerm'th)
Ainsworth, John Stirling Elibank, Rt. Hon. Master of Leach, Charles
Alden, Percy Elverston, Harold Levy, Sir Maurice
Allen, Arthur Acland (Dumbartonshire) Esmonde, Dr. John (Tipperary, N.) Lewis, John Herbert
Alien, Charles Peter (Stroud) Esmonde, Sir Thomas (Wexford, N.) Logan, John William
Armitage, Robert Essex, Richard Walter Low, Sir Frederick (Norwich)
Atherley-Jones, Llewellyn A. Falconer, James London, Thomas
Baker, Harold T. (Accrington) Fenwick, Charles Lynch, Arthur Alfred
Baker, Joseph Allen (Finsbury, E.) Ferens, Thomas Robinson Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester)
Balfour, Sir Robert (Lanark) Ffrench, Peter Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk Burghs)
Barnes, George N. Field, William Maclean, Donald
Barran, Sir J. N. (Hawick) Fiennes, Hon. Eustace Edward Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.
Barran, Rowland Hirst (Leeds, N.) Fitzgibbon, John MacNeill, John Gordon Swift
Barry, Redmond John (Tyrone, N.) Flavin, Michael Joseph MacVeagh, Jeremiah
Barton, William Gelder, Sir William Alfred M'Callum, John M.
Beale, William Phipson Gibson, Sir James Puckering M'Curdy, Charles Albert
Beauchamp, Edward Gill, Alfred Henry McKenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald
Beck, Arthur Cecil Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford M'Laren, F. W. S. (Line., Spalding)
Benn, W. W. (T. H'mts, St. George) Goldstone, Frank M'Laren, Walter S. B. (Ches., Crewe)
Bentham, George Jackson Greenwood, Granville G. (Peterborough) M'Micking, Major Gilbert
Black, Arthur W. Greig, Colonel James William Marks, George Croydon
Boland, John Pius Griffith, Ellis J. Mason, David M. (Coventry)
Booth, Frederick Handel Guest, Hon. Frederick E. (Dorset, E.) Masterman, C. F. G.
Bowerman, Charles W. Gwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway) Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.)
Boyle, Daniel (Mayo, North Hackett, John Meehan, Patrick A. (Queen's Co.)
Brace, William Hall, F. (Yorks, Normanton) Menzies, Sir Walter
Brady, Patrick Joseph Hancock, John George Millar, James Duncan
Brigg, Sir John Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose) Molloy, Michael
Brocklehurst, William B. Hardie, J. Keir (Merthyr Tydvil) Molteno, Percy Alport
Burns, Rt. Hon. John Harvey, A. G C. (Rochdale) Money, L. G. Chiozza
Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, West) Mooney, J. J.
Buxton, Noel (Norfolk, North Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N.E.) Morrell, Philip
Buxton, Rt. Hon. Sydney C. (Poplar) Harwood, George Morton, Alpheus Cleophas
Byles, William Pollard Haslam, James (Derbyshire) Munro, Robert
Carr-Gomm, H. W. Havelock-Allan, Sir Henry Munro-Ferguson, Rt. Hon. R. C.
Cawley, Sir Frederick (Prestwich) Haworth, Arthur A. Nannetti, Joseph P.
Cawley, H. T. (Lancs., Haywood) Hayden, John Patrick Needham, Christopher T.
Chancellor, Henry George Hayward, Evan Neilson, Francis
Chapple, Dr. William Allen Helme, Norval Watson Nicholson, Charles N. (Doncaster)
Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston S. Henderson, Arthur (Durham) Nolan, Joseph
Clough, William Henry, Sir Charles S. Norman, Sir Henry
Clynes, John R. Herbert, Col. Sir Ivor (Mon., South) Norton, Captain Cecil W.
Collins, G. P. (Greenock) Higham, John Sharp O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)
Collins, Stephen (Lambeth) Hinds, John O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)
Compton-Rickett, Rt. Hon. Sir J. Hodge, John O'Dehety, Philip
Condon, Thomas Joseph Holt, Richard Durning O'Dowd, John
Corbett, A. Cameron Hope, John Deans (Haddington) Ogden, Fred
Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. Horne, Charles Silvester (Ipswich) O'Grady, James
Cory, Sir Clifford John Howard, Hon. Geoffrey O'Kelly, Edward P. (Wicklow, W.)
Cotton, William Francis Hughes, Spencer Leigh O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N.)
Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth) Hunter, William (Lanark, Govan) O'Malley, William
Crawshay-Williams, Eliot Isaacs, Sir Rufus Daniel O'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, S.)
Crooks, William John, Edward Thomas O'Shaughnessy, P. J.
Crumley, Patrick Johnson, William O'Sullivan, Timothy
Cullinan, John Jones, Edgar R. (Merthyr Tydvil) Palmer, Godfrey Mark
Dalziel, Sir James H. (Kirkcaldy) Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) Parker, James (Halifax)
Davies, Ellis William (Eifion) Jones, Leif Stratten (Notts, Rushcliffe) Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek)
Davies, Timothy (Lincs., Louth) Jones, William (Carnarvonshire) Pearce, William (Limehouse)
Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.) Jones, William S. Glyn- (Stepney) Pearson, Hon. Weetman H. M.
Dawes, J. A. Joyce, Michael Pease, Rt. Hon. Joseph A. (Rotherham)
Denman, Hon. R. D. Keating Matthew Phillips, John (Longford, S.)
Devlin, Joseph Kellaway, Frederick George Pickersgill, Edward Hare
Dewar, Sir J. A. Kelly, Edward Pointer, Joseph
Dillon, John Kennedy, Vincent Paul Pollard, Sir George H.
Ponsanby, Arthur A. W. H. Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel) Warner, Sir Thomas Courtenay
Price, Sir Robert J. (Norfolk, E.) Scanlan, Thomas Wason, J. Cathcart (Orkney)
Priestley, Sir W. E. B. (Bradford, E.) Schwann, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles E. Watt, Henry A.
Primrose, Hon. Neil James Scott,A. MacCallum (Glasgow, Bridgeton) Webb, H.
Pringle, William M. R. Seely, Col. Rt. Hon. J. E. B. Wedgwood, Josiah C.
Radford, G. H. Sheehy, David White, Sir George (Norfolk)
Raphael, Sir Herbert Henry Sherwell, Arthur James White, Sir Luke (York, E.R.)
Rea, Rt. Hon. Russell (South Shields) Simon, Sir John Allsebrook White, Patrick (Meath, North
Reddy, Michael Smith, Albert (Lancs., Clitheroe) Whitehouse, John Howard
Redmond, John E. (Waterford) Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.) Whittaker, Rt. Hon. Sir T. P.
Redmond, William (Clare, E.) Snowden, Philip Whyte, Alexander F. (Perth)
Rendall, Athelstan Stanley, Albert (Staffs, N.W.) Wiles, Thomas
Richards, Thomas Strachey, Sir Edward Wilkie, Alexander
Richardson, Thomas (Whitehaven) Summers, James Woolley Williams, J. (Glamorgan)
Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln) Sutton, John E. Williams, Llewelyn (Carmarthen)
Roberts, G. H. (Norwich) Taylor, John W. (Durham) Williams, Penry (Middlesbrough)
Roberts, Sir J. H, (Denbighs.) Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe) Wilson, Hon. G. G. (Hull, W.)
Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside) Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton) Wilson, John (Durham, Mid)
Robinson, Sidney Thorne, William (West Ham) Wilson, J. W. (Worcestershire N.)
Roche, Augustine (Louth) Touimin, George Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)
Roche, John (Galway, E.) Trevelyan, Charles Philips Winfrey, Richard
Roe, Sir Thomas Ure, Rt. Hon. Alexander Wood, T. M'Kinnon (Glasgow)
Rose, Sir Charles Day Verney, Sir Harry Young, Samuel (Cavan, East)
Rowntree, Arnold Walsh, Stephen (Lancs., Ince) Young, William (Perth, East)
Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent)
Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland) Ward, W. Dudley (Southampton) TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr.
Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees) Wardle, G. J. Ilingworth and Mr. Gulland.
NOES.
Acland-Hood, Rt. Hon. Sir Alex. F. Fell, Arthur Magnus, Sir Philip
Agg-Gardner, James Tynte Fisher, William Hayes Malcolm, Ian
Altken, William Max Fitzroy, Hon. Edward A. Mason, James F. (Windsor)
Anson, Sir William Reynell Fleming, Valentine Meysey-Thompson, E. C.
Arkwright, John Stanhope Fletcher, John Samuel (Hampstead) Mildmay, Francis Bingham
Ashley, Wilfrid W. Forster, Henry William Newman, John R. P.
Astor, Waldorf Foster, Philip Staveley Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield)
Baird, John Lawrence Gardner, Ernest Nield, Herbert
Baker, Sir Rondolf L. (Dorset, N.) Gibbs, George Abraham Norton-Griffiths, J. (Wednesbury)
Balcarres, Lord Goldman, Charles Sydney O'Neill, Hon. A E. B. (Antrim, Mid)
Baldwin, Stanley Goldsmith, Frank Orde-Powlett, Hon. W. G. A.
Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (City, Lond.) Goulding, Edward Alfred Paget, Almeria Hugh
Banbury, Sir Frederick George Grant, J. A. Parker, Sir Gilbert (Gravesend)
Baring, Captain Hon. Guy Victor Greene, Walter Raymond Parkes, Ebenezer
Barlow, Montague (Salford, South) Guinness, Hon. Walter Edward Peel, Hon. W. R. W. (Taunton)
Barnston. Harry Haddock, George Bahr Perkins, Walter Frank
Barrie, H. T. (Londonderry, N.) Hall, D. B. (Isle of Wight) Pollock, Ernest Murray
Bathurst, Hon Allen B. (Glouc., E.) Hall, Fred (Dulwich) Pretyman, Ernest George
Beckett, Hon. William Gervase Homersley, Alfred St. George Pryce-Jones, Colonel E.
Benn, Arthur Shirley (Plymouth) Hamilton, Marquess of (Londonderry) Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel
Benn, Ion Hamilton (Greenwich) Hardy, Laurence (Kent, Ashford) Rawson, Colonel Richard H.
Bennett-Goldney, Francis Harris, Henry Percy Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall)
Bentinck, Lord H. Cavendish- Helmsley, Viscount Rolleston, Sir John
Bigland, Alfred Henderson, Major H. (Berks.,Abingdon) Ronaldshay, Earl of
Bird, Alfred Hill, Sir Clement L. Royds, Edmund
Boscawen, Sackville T. Griffith- Hillier, Dr. Alfred Peter Rutherford, Watson (L'pool, W. Derby)
Boyton, James Hill-Wood, Samuel Salter, Arthur Clavell
Bridgeman, William Clive Hoare, Samuel John Gurney Sanders, Robert Arthur
Bull, Sir William James Hohler, Gerald Fitzroy Sandys, G. J. (Somerset, Wells)
Burdett-Coutts, William Hope, Harry (Bute) Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)
Burn, Colonel C. R. Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield) Stonier, Beville
Butcher, John George Horner, Andrew Long Stanley, Hon. G. F. (Preston)
Campion, W. R. Houston, Robert Paterson Steel-Maitland, A. D.
Carlile, Edward Hildred Hume-Williams, William Ellis Stewart, Gershom
Cassel, Felix Hunter, Sir Charles Rodk. (Bath) Strauss, Arthur (Paddington, North
Castlereagh, Viscount Ingleby, Holcombe Swift, Rigby
Cator, John Jardine, Ernest (Somerset, East) Sykes, Alan John
Cautley, Henry Strother Jaynson-Hirks, William Talbot, Lord Edmund
Cave, George Kebty-Fletcher, J. R. Terrell, George (Wilts, N.W.)
Cecil, Lord Hugh (Oxford University) Kerry, Earl of Terrell, Henry (Gloucester)
Chaloner, Colonel R. G. W. Kirkwood, John H. M. Thomson, W. Mitchell- (Down, North
Clay, Captain H. H Spender Lane-Fox, G. R. Tryon, Capt. George Clement
Clive, Percy Archer Larmor, Sir J. Walker, Col. William Hall
Clyde, James Avon Law, Andrew Bonar (Bootle, Lancs.) Ward, Arnold S. (Herts, Watford)
Craig, Norman (Kent, Thanet) Lee, Arthur Hamilton Wheler, Granville C. H.
Craik, Sir Henry Locker-Lampson, O. (Ramsey) White, Maj. G. D. (Lancs., Southport)
Crichton-Stuart, Lord Ninian Lockwood, Rt. Hon. Lt.-Col. A. R. Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.)
Dalrymple, Viscount Long, Rt. Hon. Walter Willoughby, Major Hon. Claude
Dixon, Charles Harvey Lonsdale, John Brownlee Wood, Hon. E. F. L. (Yorks, Ripon)
Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- Lyttelton, Hon. J. C. (Droitwich) Yate, Colonel C. E.
Du Cros, Arthur Philip MacCaw, Wm. J. MacGeagh
Duke, Henry Edward Mackinder, Mallard J. TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Viscount
Eyres-Monsell, B. M. Macmaster, Donald Valentia and Mr. Pike Pease.
Faber, Copt W. V. (Hants., W.) M'Calmont, Colonel James