§ Where the consideration, or any part of the consideration, for any lease or tack consists of any money, stock, or security (other than rent) the amount or value of which does not exceed five hundred pounds, and the instrument contains a statement certifying that the transaction thereby effected does not form part of a larger transaction or of a series of transactions in respect of which the amount or value or the aggregate amount or value of the consideration other than rent exceeds five hundred pounds, Section 75 of the principal Act shall not apply to the duty chargeable in respect of the consideration, or part thereof, which so consists of any money, stock, or security other than rent, but duty shall be charged in respect thereof as if that Act had not passed:
§ Provided that this Section shall not apply in any case where part of the consideration for any lease or tack consists of rent, and that rent exceeds the sum of fifteen pounds a year.
§ Viscount HELMSLEYI desire to move an Amendment which will, I think, remove a redundancy that appears to exist in the first line of the Clause. The Committee will see the words of the Clause are: "Where the consideration, or any part of the consideration, for any lease or tack, etc." I do not know what the object is of putting in the words "the consideration or any part of the consideration." Surely if any part of the consideration is to enable this exemption to take place, the whole consideration must also enable the exemption to take place. It is an a fortiori argument that if any partial consideration enables the exemption to take place, so must the whole. The words appear to me to be a redundancy. I beg to move to leave out the words "the consideration, or."
§ Mr. HOBHOUSEIt is quite clear these words must stand part of the Clause. Otherwise it might mean any part of the consideration, and not the whole consideration.
§ Mr. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAINSurely my Noble Friend is right in saying that these words are redundant. If the consideration does not exceed £500, part of the consideration cannot exceed £500. That is clear. If the whole does not exceed £500, part of it will not exceed £500. The word you should have in is "consideration," and the words you should leave out are "any part of the consideration." I do not know whether there is any necessity for having the two sets of words, but on the face of it either one or the other should go out.
§ Mr. HOBHOUSEMay I point out that this matter deals not only with the premium but with rent as well?
§ Mr. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAINI am much obliged to the right hon. Gentleman for his interruption, but what has that got to do with it? He says the Clause deals with rent. We shall come to rent later. The part we are dealing with refers to a consideration other than rent. Therefore we are not now dealing with rent. We are dealing with the consideration, and the whole of the consideration other than rent is not to exceed £500. If the whole consideration other than rent is referred to, is it not the part other than rent which cannot exceed £500? I think the Financial Secretary to the Treasury has not seen my point.
§ Earl WINTERTONApparently the Treasury is so muddled that for the first time in history we are asked to believe that the part exceeds the whole. Why the right hon. Gentleman got up and said this referred to rent I really do not know. It arises perhaps from the fatal habit of considering these questions at half-past one o'clock in the morning. Apparently he considers that where rent is concerned the part may be greater than the whole. That, 1573 no doubt, is quite in accord with the views of some of his colleagues on the subject. These words are entirely redundant, and the word "consideration" alone should stand. I have not the least hope that the right hon. Gentleman will agree to the elision. The whole object of the Government has been to muddle and confuse the public as much as possible so that they could screw them up to their necks in taxation.
§ Colonel GRIFFITH-BOSCAWENI think it is perfectly clear that if we use the word "consideration" we may ask why do you want the words "or any part thereof"? The Noble Lord has pointed out that the part is not greater than the whole. I think the Noble Lord who moved the Amendment rendered a very good service in bringing this point forward, but he did not make it quite clear. I think it would be better to use the word "consideration" and leave out the words "or any part" of the consideration. Therefore, in order to facilitate business—I am sure hon. Members opposite are most anxious to do that, though it is very difficult to consider these complex problems at half-past one o'clock in the morning—yet it would facilitate business, as far as that is possible under present conditions, and I ask whether it would not be for the general convenience if the Noble Lord would withdraw his Amendment and allow me to move to leave out the words "or any part."
§ Dr. HILLIERWe are going from one obscurity to another. We began early in the evening, after a long debate, by correcting a printer's error and previous to this discussion we had a motion to report Progress but before that we had time after time to try to convince the Government that one of the Sections of the Clause required further consideration, and finally they assented to that. We are now up against a further obscurity in the words "or any part of the consideration." I entirely agree with the hon. Member who has just spoken, that if we are to have not merely printer's errors corrected but plain English inserted in the Clauses of this Bill we should facilitate that purpose by leaving out the words "or any part of the consideration." On these grounds I support the Amendment.
§ Mr. BUTCHERIt is hard to say at his hour of the morning exactly what is the right Amendment to make. I quite agree it would be better to try to make 1574 sense of it and instead of leaving out the word "consideration" leave out the words "or any part of the consideration," because, if the Financial Secretary to the Treasury would give me his attention for a moment, it is quite obvious that if the consideration is less than £500, part of it would be less than that. I believe that ought to be quite clear.
§ The CHAIRMANThe hon. Member must address himself to the Amendment which is before the Committee, and not to a proposed alternative.
§ Mr. BUTCHERI do not know whether or not it is the general desire that we should try to make sense of this, but if it is I was trying to point out to the right hon. Gentleman that the meaning of the Clause as it stands is really obscure. It is quite obvious that you must make some alteration. The hon. Members from Ireland who are interrupting I know dislike this Budget, and would like it to be as nonsensical as they can make it; but we are here to try to make sense of it. I do not think that is an easy task. It is due to some hysterical draftsmanship or something of that kind. What was the meaning of the explanation given from the Treasury Bench? It was that only rent was referred to. But if the right hon. Gentleman will look at the words of the Clause he will see that rent is specially left out. The "further consideration other than rent does not exceed £500." I understood him to have said that part of the consideration might have been rent. It is quite evident that is not so. It is clear we ought to amend the Clause, but the difficulty is to decide upon the exact way to do so.
§ Mr. WATSON RUTHERFORDWhat is really intended by the words of the Clause has, I think, excited the attention of Members on this side of the House and also of the Front Bench opposite. Suppose there were four or more men joined on a lease and each received £499 19s. 11d. It is quite clear that each of them would have a part of the consideration and it seems to me that if we leave the Clause alone it would have the effect of exempting them from Stamp Duty because the consideration of each would be less than £500. If that is not the intention, which I very much doubt, it is the effect of the Clause as it stands. If ten people each received £499 19s. 11d. there would be no duty to pay with regard to that part of a consideration. Will some of the Gentlemen 1575 who are in charge of the Bill tell us what they do mean? In that case we might withdraw the Amendment because the Clause as it stands would be a highly prejudicial proceeding to the Treasury.
§ Mr. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAINI am afraid I must press for an answer from one of the Law Officers on the point put by my hon. Friend behind me. Those who followed the Budget discussions of 1909 know that he has had a very wide experience and has a penetrating judgment which he brought to bear upon this proposition, and the construction of the words of the Clauses. If he is right the Government is making a most important concession which we on this side would be very reluctant to stop. I was a little surprised to hear sounds of approval from the other side when my hon. Friend suggested that might be the effect of the Bill. One hon. Member opposite said, "So much the better." Why is he so anxious now that people should escape the taxes which he was so anxious to impose upon them a year ago? Perhaps he has paid a visit to his constituents in the meantime, and has come back with some difficulties in his mind, and finds that those taxes are not quite so popular as he thought they were when he first voted for them. That is possible, but in any case we are grateful to him for the assistance he will doubtless render in his efforts to alleviate their effect upon the taxpayer. I want an answer from someone in authority on what seems to me a legal point, and I must press the Law Officers to say whether or not the hon. Member behind me is right or not in his construction of the words.
§ Viscount HELMSLEYI am not quite persuaded that the arguments of my hon. Friends justify me in withdrawing this Amendment, for I am not persuaded that the plan they suggest would be the wiser course. It does not seem to me that if you leave out only "any part of the consideration," you will be restricting the exemption which would otherwise be secured. That is not my object. I want the exemption to be as wide as possible, and I think it would be wide if the words I propose were left out than if the words proposed by my hon. Friends were left out. On this matter I should value the opinion of the learned Attorney-General. If you leave in the words "consideration, or" and take out "any part of the consideration," 1576 it might be interpreted that the whole consideration must be money, stock or securities consisting of £500, and therefore that although a part of the consideration might be money, stock or securities of this kind, yet it would not be subject to this exemption, because it might be interpreted that only when the whole consideration consisted of money, stock or security did exemption become due. On the other hand, if you leave out the words that I propose to leave in, "any part of the consideration," then it necessarily is the case that the whole consideration, being money, stock or security not exceeding £500, must also give the exemption. I am sorry to differ from my hon. Friends above the Gangway, who suggested that I should withdraw the Amendment, but I really think mine is the better one of the two. With all respect I hope I have convinced them I am right on that point, subject to what I hear from the Attorney-General.
§ Sir RUFUS ISAACSReally one or two sentences will, I think, put the matter quite clearly to the Committee, and I feel sure that the Committee will not desire that further time should be taken up with this Amendment. Everybody does not carry the words of various Acts of Parliament in their minds. In point of fact these words are taken verbatim out of the Stamp-Act of 1891, passed by a Government not of our party. It is very necessary that you should use the same words as far as you can to deal with the same subject in various Stamp Acts. The words are in the Schedule: "Where the consideration or any part of the consideration, "and it ends" consists of any money, stock, or security." Those are exactly the same words. There you are dealing with exactly the same kind of thing that we are dealing with here. The words are the same and must be the same. I will answer the question put to me by saying that I do not agree with the construction put on the words by the hon. Member (Mr. Watson Rutherford).
§ Mr. PRETYMANMay I ask the learned Attorney-General whether the words that he has read out, which are identical with the words here, may not have a very different effect if the following words are different? The words which follow here, "the value of which does not exceed £500," apply not only to the consideration or any part of the consideration. Therefore, apparently, you might have a consideration of a million, but some part of 1577 it might be less than £500. That is what these words would mean here. It seems very dangerous to take words out of an Act which might be followed by quite different words, and apply them to a new Act. It seems to me quite clear—"where the consideration or any part of the consideration," "the amount or value of which does not exceed £500." Surely that is in plain English, where any part of the consideration does not exceed £500 the exemption follows. You might divide a consideration into as many parts as you like. The words here appear to me to be absolutely meaningless. Really, I think that either the one Amendment or the other should be adopted. It would then be clear what was meant.
§ Viscount CASTLEREAGHI feel that the Amendment which my Noble Friend has moved is of far larger scope than the one proposed by the hon. Member above the Gangway. For those reasons I sincerely hope the Noble Lord will not withdraw it.
§ Mr. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAINI am much obliged to the Attorney-General for the courtesy with which he replied. But, really, I think the matter is not quite as simple as it appeared to him. He looks at the Act from which he quotes. That is a taxing Act. He looks at this section; it is a section in relief of the taxpayer. That in itself has a material effect on the bearing of the words.
§ In the Stamp Act from which he quoted the words that "where the consideration or any part of the consideration consists of money, stock, or security," If there there shall be so much charged; but I in the words now under consideration, "where the consideration or any part of the consideration" is under a certain amount, there there shall be relief. I There is not at all the same effect in using the same words. In the one case it is the object of the Statute to impose a stamp where the consideration or any part of the consideration consisted of any money, stock, or security. That is intended to cover every sort of case. Yes, but it is admittedly not intended to cover every sort of case where you repeat the words here. I am not at all certain that I do not rather differ from my Noble Friend on this subject. I think he is coming to the assistance of the Government to stop a I gap in their Bill. I am rather inclined to associate myself with the hon. Gentleman who was delighted to find the hole so large. On the whole, therefore, I am inclined to say that the Government had better have the words they want, and that they will not get the money they expect.
§ Question put, "That the words proposed I to be left out stand part of the Clause."
§ The Committee divided: Ayes, 227; Noes, 156.
1581| Division No. 50.] | AYES. | [1.40 a.m. |
| Abraham, William (Dublin Harbour) | Clynes, J. R. | Flavin, Michael Joseph |
| Acland, Francis Dyke | Collins, Godfrey P. (Greenock) | Furness, Stephen |
| Adamson, William | Collins, Stephen (Lambeth) | Gelder, Sir W. A. |
| Addison, Dr. Christopher | Condon, Thomas Joseph | Gill, A. H. |
| Agar-Robartes, Hon. T. C. R. | Corbett, A. Cameron | Glanville, H. J. |
| Allen, A. A. (Dumbartonshire) | Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. | Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford |
| Armitage, R. | Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemoutn) | Goldstone, Frank |
| Ashton, Thomas Gair | Crawshay-Williams, Eliot | Greig, Col. James William |
| Baker, H. T. (Accrington) | Crumley, Patrick | Guest, Major Hon. C. H. C. (Pembroke) |
| Barran, Rowland Hirst (Leeds, N.) | Davies, E. William (Elfion) | Guest, Hon. Frederick E. (Dorset, E.) |
| Barry, Redmond John | Davies, Timothy (Lincs., Louth) | Hackett, J. |
| Barton, William | Dawes, J. A. | Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose) |
| Beale, W. P | Delany, William | Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale) |
| Benn, W. W. (Tower Hamlets, St. Geo.) | Dewar, Sir J. A. (Inverness) | Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, W.) |
| Bentham, G J. | Dillon, John | Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth) |
| Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine | Doris, W. | Havelock-Allan, Sir Henry |
| Black, Arthur W. | Duffy, William J. | Haworth, Arthur A. |
| Booth, Frederick Handel | Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness) | Hayden, John Patrick |
| Bowerman, C. W. | Edwards, Allen C. (Glamorgan, E.) | Hayward, Evan |
| Boyle, D. (Mayo, N.) | Edwards, Sir Francis (Radnor) | Helme, Norval Watson |
| Brace, William | Elibank, Rt. Hon. Master of | Henderson, Arthur (Durham) |
| Brady, P. J. | Elverston, H. | Henry, Sir Charles S. |
| Brocklehurst, W. B. | Esmonde, Dr. John (Tipperary, N.) | Higham, John Sharp |
| Brunner, J. F. L. | Esmonde, Sir Thomas (Wexford, N.) | Hinds, John |
| Burke, E. Haviland. | Essex, Richard Walter | Hobhouse, Rt. Hon. Charles E. H. |
| Burns, Rt. Hon. John | Falconer, James | Holt, Richard Durnlng |
| Carr-Gomm, H. W. | Farreil, James Patrick | Home, C. S. (Ieswich) |
| Cawley, Harold T. (Heywood) | Fenwick, Charles | Hudson, Walter |
| Chancellor, H. G. | Ferens, T. R. | Hughes, S. L. |
| Chapple, Dr. William Allen | Ffrench, Peter | Isaacs, Sir Rufus Daniel |
| Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston S. | Field, William | John, Edward Thomas |
| Clancy, John Joseph | Flennes, Hon. Eustace Edward | Johnson, W. |
| Clough, William | Fitzgibbon, John | Jones, Edgar R. (Merthyr Tydvil) |
| Jones, H. Haydn (Merioneth) | Neilson, Francis | Samuel, J. (Stockton) |
| Jones, Leif Stratten (Notts, Rushcliffe) | Nolan, Joseph | Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel) |
| Jones, William (Carnarvonshire) | Norman, Sir Henry | Scanlan, Thomas |
| Jones, W. S. Glyn- (T. H'mts, Stepney) | O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) | Scott, A. M'Callum (Glasgow, Bridgeton) |
| Joyce, Michael | O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.) | Seely, Col., Right Hon. J. E. B. |
| Keating, M. | O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool) | Sherwell, Arthur James |
| Kellaway, Frederick George | O'Dowd, John | Shortt, Edward |
| Kilbride, Denis | O'Grady, James | Simon, Sir John Allsebrook |
| King, J. (Somerset, N.) | O'Kelly, Edward P (Wicklow, W.) | Smith, Albert (Lancs., Clitheroe) |
| Lambert, George (Devon, S. Molton) | O'Malley, William | Smith, H. B. (Northampton) |
| Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade) | O'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, S.) | Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.) |
| Law, Hugh A. | O'Shaughnessy, P. J. | Soares, Ernest J. |
| Lawson, Sir W.(Cumb'rld., Cockerm'th) | O'Sullivan, Timothy | Stanley, Albert (Staffs, N. W.) |
| Leach, Charles | Palmer, Godfrey Mark | Strauss, Edward A. (Southwark, West) |
| Levy, Sir Maurice | Parker, James (Halifax) | Summers, James Wooley |
| Lewis, John Herbert | Pearce, Robert (Staffs., Leek) | Sutton, John E |
| Low, Sir F. (Norwich) | Pearson, Hon. Weetman H. M. | Taylor, John W. (Durham) |
| Lundon, Thomas | Pease, Rt. Hen. Joseph A. (Rotherham) | Tennant, Harold John |
| Lynch, A. A. | Pirie, Duncan V. | Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton) |
| Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester) | Pointer, Joseph | Toulmin, George |
| MacGhee, Richard | Pollard, Sir George H. | Trevelyan, Charles Philips |
| Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J. | Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H. | Ure, Rt. Hon. Alexander |
| MacNeill, John Gordon Swift | Power, Patrick Joseph | Verney, Sir Harry |
| MacVeagh, Jeremiah | Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central) | Walters, John Tudor |
| M'Curdy, C. A. | Priestley, Sir W. E. B. (Bradford, E.) | Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent) |
| M'Laren, H. D. (Leics, Bosworth) | Primrose, Hon Neil James | Ward, W. Dudley (Southampton) |
| M'Laren, Walter S. B. (Ches., Crewe) | Raffan, Peter Wilson | Wardle, George J. |
| M'Micking, Major Gilbert | Raphael, Sir Herbert H. | Waring, Waller |
| Marshall, Arthur Harold | Rea, Walter Russell (Scarborough) | Warner, Sir Thomas Courtenay |
| Mason, David M. (Coventry) | Redmond, John E. (Waterford) | Webb, H. |
| Mssterman, C. F. G. | Redmond, William Arthur (Tyrone, F.) | Wedgwood, Josiah C. |
| Mathias, Richard | Rendall, Atheistan | White, Patrick (Meath, North) |
| Meagher, Michael | Richards, Thomas | Whyte, Alexander F. |
| Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.) | Richardson, Thomas (Whitehaven) | Williams, J. (Glamorgan) |
| Molloy, M. | Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln) | Williams, P. (Middlesbrough) |
| Mond, Sir Alfred | Roberts, G. H. (Norwich) | Wilson, Hon. G. G. (Hull. W.) |
| Money, L. G. Chiozza | Roberts, Sir J. H. (Denbighs) | Wilson, John (Durham, Mid) |
| Montagu, Hon. E. S. | Robertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradford) | Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton) |
| Mooney, J. J. | Robinson, Sydney | Wood, T. M'Kinnon (Glasgow) |
| Morgan, George Hay | Roch, Walter F. (Pembroke) | Young, W. (Perthshire, E.) |
| Worrell, Philip | Rose, Sir Charles Day | |
| Munro, R. | Rowlands, James | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— Mr. Illingworth and Mr. Gulland. |
| Murray, Capt. Hon. A. C. | St. Maur, Harold | |
| Needham, Christopher T | Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland) | |
| NOES. | ||
| Acland-Hood, Rt. Hon. Sir Alex. F. | Clive, Percy Archer | Horne, Wm. E. (Surrey, Guildford) |
| Archer-Slice, Major M. | Clyde, J. Avon | Hunt, Rowland |
| Ashley, W. W. | Cooper, Richard Ashmole | Hunter, Sir C. R. (Bath) |
| Astor, Waldorf | Courthope, G. Loyd | Jardine, E. (Somerset, E.) |
| Baird, J. L. | Craig, Captain James (Down, E.) | Kebty-Fletcher, J. R. |
| Baker, Sir R. L. (Dorset, N.) | Craig, Norman (Kent, Thanet) | Kerr-Smiley, Peter Kerr |
| Balcarres, Lord | Craik, Sir Henry | Kerry, Earl of |
| Baldwin, Stanley | Crichton-Stuart, Lord Ninian | Knight, Capt. E. A. |
| Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (City, Lond.) | Croft, H. P. | Larmor, Sir J. |
| Banbury, Sir Frederick George | Dairymple, Viscount | Lawson, Hon. H. (T. H'mts, Mile End) |
| Baring, Capt. Hon. G. | Doughty, Sir George | Lewisham, Viscount |
| Barlow, Montague (Salford, South) | Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers. | Locker-Lampson, O. (Ramsey) |
| Barnston, H. | Eyres-Monsell, B. M. | Lockwood, Rt. Hon. Lt.-Col. A. R. |
| Barrie, H. T. (Londonderry, N.) | Fell, Arthur | Long, Rt. Hon. Walter |
| Bathurst, Hon. A. B. (Glouc., E.) | Fisher, W. Hayes | Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. A. (Hanover Sq.) |
| Beach, Hon. Michael Hugh Hicks | Fleming, Valentine | Mackinder, Halford J. |
| Benn, Arthur Shirley (Plymouth) | Fletcher, John Samuel (Hampstead) | Malcolm, Ian |
| Benn, I. H. (Greenwich) | Forster, Henry William | Mills, Hon. Charles Thomas |
| Bennett-Goldney, Francis | Foster, Philip Staveley | Moore, William |
| Bentinck, Lord H. Cavendish | Gastrell, Major W. H. | Morpeth, Viscount |
| Bigland, Alfred | Gibbs, G. A. | Morrison-Bell. Major A. C. (Honiton) |
| Bird, A. | Gilmour, Captain J. | Mount, William Arthur |
| Boscawen, Sackville T. Griffith. | Goldsmith, Frank | Neville, Reginald J. N. |
| Boyton, J. | Gordon, J. | Newman, John R. P. |
| Brassey, H. Leonard Campbell | Grant, J. A. | Newton, Harry Kottingham |
| Bridgeman, W. Clive | Greene, W. R. | Nicholson, Wm. G. (Petersfield) |
| Bull, Sir William James | Gretton, John | Nield, Herbert |
| Burgoyne, A. H. | Guinness, Hon. W. E | Norton-Griffiths, J. (Wednesbury) |
| Burn, Colonel C. R. | Hall, D. B. (Isle of Wight) | O'Neill, Hon. A. E. B. (Antrim, Mid) |
| Butcher, J. G. | Hambro, Angus Valdemar | Orde-Powlett, Hon. W. G. A. |
| Carlile, E. Hildred | Hardy, Laurence | Ormsby-Gore, Hen. William |
| Cassel, Felix | Harris, Henry Percy | Paget, Almeric Hugh |
| Cator, John | Henderson, Major H. (Abingdon) | Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington) |
| Cave, George | Hillier, Dr. A. P. | Peel, Capt. R. F. (Woodbridge) |
| Cecil, Lord Hugh (Oxford University) | Hill-Wood, Samuel | Peel, Hon. W R. W. (Taunton) |
| Chaloner, Col. R. G. W. | Hohler, Gerald Fitzroy | Perkins, Walter F. |
| Clay, Captain H. Spender | Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield) | Peto, Basil Edward |
| Pole-Carew, Sir R. | Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.) | Wheler, Granville C. H. |
| Pollock, Ernest Murray | Smith, Hanold (Warrington) | White, Major G. D. (Lance., Southport) |
| Pretyman, E. G. | Spear, John Ward | Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.) |
| Pryce-Jones. Col. E. | Stanier, Seville | Willoughby, Major Hon. Claude |
| Quilter, William Eley C. | Stanley, Hon. G. F. (Preston) | Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E. R.) |
| Rawson, Colonel Richard H. | Staveley-Hill, Henry | Winterton, Earl |
| Remnant, James Farquharson | Steel-Maitland, A. D. | Wolmer, Viscount |
| Rice, Hon. W. F. | Stewart, Gershom | Wood, Hon. E. F. L. (Ripon) |
| Rolleston, Sir John | Swift, Rigby | Wood, John (Stalybridge) |
| Ronaldshay, Earl of | Talbot, Lord E. | Worthington-Evans, L. |
| Rothschild, Lionel de | Terrell, H. (Gloucester) | Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart. |
| Royds, Edmund | Thomson, W. Mitchell- (Down, North) | Yate, Colonel C. E. |
| Rutherford, Watson (L'pool, W. Derby) | Touche, George Alexander | Younger, George |
| Salter, Arthur Claven | Tullibardine, Marquess of | |
| Sanders, Robert A. | Walker, Col. William Hall | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— Viscount Helmsley And Viscount Castiereagh. |
| Sanderson, Lancelot | Weigall, Captain A. G. |
§ 2.0 A.M.
§ Mr. WATSON RUTHERFORDI desire to move after the word "tack" ["for any lease or tack"] to insert the words "or assignment of a lease or tack." This is a very short point and I put it to those who are in charge of the Bill that if they really intend to give small leaseholders some abatement in respect of their Stamp Duty that abatement ought to be consistently carried out not only in regard to the lease or tack itself, but to any assignment of it. May I point out to the right hon. Gentleman that there are hundreds and thousands of eases every year in which small houses in connection with which the tenancy is for a very short lease, and of course in regard—
§ [The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN (Mr. J. H. Whitley) in the Chair.]
§ Sir WILLIAM BULLOn a point of Order, Mr. Deputy-Chairman. Does not my Amendment—"agreement for leases"—come before that. It is after the word "tack."
§ The DEPUTY-CHAIRMANNo.
§ Mr. WATSON RUTHERFORDI am willing to give way to my hon. Friend. As the Chairman calls upon me to continue, I would point out that the cases we are now considering are cases of small properties for a considerably small rent or consideration. When the original agreement is entered into, if I understand the meaning of the Clause aright, the idea is to give a distinct abatement of one-half. I was pointing out that if the Government desire to be consistent, and really to give bonâ-fide relief to the people who inhabit these houses, and are in the habit of taking leases of them, or short tenancies, then I suggest that they should carry the abatement a step farther. It very frequently happens that when these leases are made, especially where they are building leases, you have an assignment 1582 made to the person who is going to occupy them. The assignment in that case is to the working man. We have a large number of these cases in the neighbourhood of Liverpool. The original stamp on the lease matters very little on the original abatement, but it is an important thing that the working man who is going to inhabit the lease after it is built should have exemption. The whole idea of the exemption is to try and benefit these people. You do not really do so unless you include not merely the original lease or tack but any assignment or tack. It is on these grounds that I have proposed to insert after the word "tack" "or assignment of a lease or tack."
§ Mr. HOBHOUSEThe proposal of the hon. Gentleman is in fact, I think, covered by the operation of the principal Act. An assignment operates by means of conveyance. A conveyance is secured in the case of properties under £500 by the operation of the principal Act and therefore the point the hon. Gentleman makes is already covered, and it would be unnecessary to add the words proposed. If it was done by lease then, of course, lease is covered by the proposal we shall come to in a moment.
§ Mr. WATSON RUTHERFORDThe right hon. Gentleman is perfectly right that there is in the original Act abatement up to £500 in the case of consignments and in the case of any conveyance. What I am trying to point out is that we have got here an altogether different case. We have the case of a mixed consideration. The only part of the transaction provided for in the Clause as it stands is that there is to be a substantial abatement in regard to the original lease. I want that carried still further. It is no answer to the contention that the original Stamp Duty is rather smaller under certain circumstances. What we want is that if an abatement is to be given in the case of the small leasehold property that abatement ought to be 1583 exchanged to its changed hands. I venture still to press my point, I do not think the answer we have had is at all satisfactory.
§ Question put, "That those words be there inserted."
§ The Committee divided: Ayes, 153; Noes, 222.
1585| Division No. 51.] | AYES. | [2.10 a.m. |
| Acland-Hood, Rt. Hon. Sir Alex. F. | Fisher, William Hayes | Peel, Capt. R. F. (Woodbridge) |
| Archer-Shee, Major Martin | Fleming, Valentine | Peel, Hon. Wm. R. W. (Taunton) |
| Ashley, Wilfrid W. | Fletcher, John Samuel (Hampstead) | Perkins, Walter Frank |
| Astor, Waldorf | Forster, Henry William | Peto, Basil Edward |
| Baird, John Lawrence | Foster, Philip Staveley | Pole-Carew, Sir R. |
| Baker, Sir Randolf L. (Dorset, N.) | Gastrell, Major W. Houghton | Pollock, Ernest Murray |
| Balcarres, Lord | Gibbs, George Abraham | Pretyman, Ernest George |
| Baldwin, Stanley | Gilmour, Captain John | Pryce-Jones, Col. E. |
| Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (City, Lond.) | Goldsmith, Frank | Quilter, William Eley C. |
| Banbury, Sir Frederick George | Gordon, John | Rawson, Col. Richard H. |
| Baring, Captain Hon. Guy Victor | Grant, James Augustus | Remnant, James Farquharson |
| Barlow, Montague (Salford, South) | Greene, Walter Raymond | Rice, Hon. Walter Fitz-Uryan |
| Barnston, Harry | Gretton, John | Rolleston, Sir John |
| Barrie, H. T. (Londonderry, N.) | Guinness, Hon. Walter Edward | Ronaldshay, Earl of |
| Bathurst, Hon. Allen B. (Glouc. E.) | Hall, D. B. (Isle of Wight) | Rothschild, Lionel de |
| Beach, Hon. Michael Hugh Hicks | Hambro, Angus Valdemar | Royds, Edmund |
| Benn, Arthur Shirley (Plymouth) | Hardy, Laurence | Salter, Arthur Clavell |
| Benn, Ion Hamilton (Greenwich) | Harris, Henry Percy | Sanders, Robert Arthur |
| Bennett-Goldney, Francis | Helmsley, Viscount | Sanderson, Lancelot |
| Bentinck, Lord H. Cavendish. | Henderson, Major H. (Abingdon) | Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.) |
| Bigland, Alfred | Hill-Wood, Samuel | Smith, Harold (Warrington) |
| Bird, Alfred | Hillier, Dr. Alfred Peter | Spear, John Ward |
| Boscawen, Sackville T. Griffith. | Hohler, Gerald Fitzroy | Stanier, Seville |
| Boyton, James | Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield) | Stanley, Hon. G F. (Preston) |
| Brassey, H. Leonard Campbell | Horne, William E. (Surrey, Guildford) | Staveley-Hill, Henry |
| Bridgeman, William Clive | Hunter, Sir Chas. Rodk. (Bath) | Steel-Maitland, A. D. |
| Bull, Sir William James | Jardine, Ernest (Somerset, East) | Stewart, Gershom |
| Burgoyne, Alan Hughes | Kebty-Fletcher, J. R. | Swift, Rigby |
| Burn, Colonel C. R. | Kerr-Smiley, Peter Kerr | Talbot, Lord Edmund |
| Butcher, John George | Kerry, Earl of | Terrell, Henry (Gloucester) |
| Carlile, Edward Hildred | Knight, Capt. Eric Ayshford | Thomson, W. Mitchell- (Down, N.) |
| Cassel, Felix | Lawson, Hon. H. (T. H'mts, Mile End) | Touche, George Alexander |
| Castlereagh, Viscount | Lewisham, Viscount | Tullibardine, Marquess of |
| Cator, John | Locker-Lampson, O. (Ramsey) | Walker, Col. William Hall |
| Cave, George | Lockwood, Rt. Hon. Lt.-Col. A. R. | Weigall, Capt. A. G. |
| Cecil, Lord Hugh (Oxford University) | Long, Rt. Hon. Walter | Wheler, Granville C. H. |
| Chaloner, Col. R. G. W. | Mackinder, Halford J. | White, Major G. D. (Lancs., Southport) |
| Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J. (Birm., W.) | Malcolm, Ian | Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.) |
| Clay, Captain H. H. Spender | Mills, Hon. Charles Thomas | Willoughby, Major Hon. Claude |
| Clive, Percy Archer | Moore, William | Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E. R.) |
| Clyde, James Avon | Morpeth, Viscount | Wolmer, Viscount |
| Cooper, Richard Ashmole | Morrison-Bell, Major A. C. (Honiton) | Wood, Hon. E. F. L. (Yorks, Ripon) |
| Courthope, George Loyd | Mount, William Arthur | Wood, John (Stalybridge) |
| Craig, Captain James (Down, E.) | Neville, Reginald J. N. | Worthington-Evans, L. |
| Craig, Norman (Kent, Thanet) | Newman, John R. P. | Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart. |
| Craik, Sir Henry | Newton, Harry Kottingham | Yate, Colonel C. E. |
| Crichton-Stuart, Lord Ninian | Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield) | Younger, George |
| Croft, Henry Page | Nield, Herbert | |
| Dairymple, Viscount | Norton-Griffiths, J. (Wednesbury) | |
| Doughty, Sir George | O'Neil, Hon. A. E. B. (Antrim, Mid.) | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— Mr. Watson Rutherford and Lord Winterton. |
| Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers. | Orde-Powlett, Hon. W. G. A. | |
| Eyres-Monsell, Bolton M. | Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William | |
| Fell, Arthur | Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington) | |
| NOES. | ||
| Abraham, William (Dublin, Harbour) | Boyle, Daniel (Mayo, North) | Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. |
| Acland, Francis Dyke | Brace, William | Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth) |
| Adamson, William | Brady, Patrick Joseph | Crawshay-Williams, Eliot |
| Addison, Dr. Christopher | Brocklehurst, William B. | Crumley, Patrick |
| Agar-Robartes, Hon. T. C. R. | Brunner, John F. L. | Davies, Ellis William (Eifion) |
| Alien, Arthur A. (Dumbartonshire) | Burke, E. Haviland. | Davies, Timothy (Lines., Louth) |
| Armitage, Robert | Burns, Rt. Hon. John | Dawes, James Arthur |
| Baker, Harold T. (Accrington) | Carr-Gomm, H. W. | Delany, William |
| Barran, Rowland Hirst (Leeds, N.) | Cawley, H. T. (Lancs., Hey wood) | Dewar, Sir J. A. (Inverness-Shire) |
| Barry, Redmond John | Chancellor, Henry George | Dillon, John |
| Barton, William | Chapple, Dr. W. A. | Doris, William |
| Beale, William Phipson | Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston S. | Duffy, William J. |
| Benn, W. W. (T. H'mts., St. Geo.) | Clancy, John Joseph | Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness) |
| Bentham, George Jackson | Clough, William | Edwards, Allen C. (Glamorgan, E.) |
| Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine | Clynes, John R. | Edwards, Sir Francis (Radnor) |
| Black, Arthur W. | Collins, Godfrey P. (Greenock) | Elibank, Rt. Hon. Master of |
| Booth, Frederick Handel | Condon, Thomas Joseph | Elverston, Harold |
| Bowerman, Charles W. | Corbett, A. Cameron | Esmonde, Dr. John (Tipperary, N.) |
| Esmonde, Sir Thomas (Wexford, N.) | Levy, Sir Maurice | Redmond, John E. (Waterford) |
| Essex, Richard Walter | Lewis, John Herbert | Redmond, William Archer (Tyrone, E.) |
| Falconer, James | Low, Sir Frederick (Norwich) | Rendall, Atheistan |
| Farrell, James Patrick | Lundon, Thomas | Richards, Thomas |
| Fenwick, Charles | Lynch, Arthur Alfred | Richardson, Thomas (Whitehaven) |
| Ferens, Thomas Robinson | Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester) | Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln) |
| Ffrench, Peter | MacGhee, Richard | Roberts, George H. (Norwich) |
| Field, William | Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J. | Roberts, Sir J. H. (Denbigh) |
| Fiennes, Hon. Eustace Edward | MacNeill, John Gordon Swift | Robertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradford) |
| Fitzgibbon, John | MacVeagh, Jeremiah | Robinson, Sidney |
| Flavin, Michael Joseph | M'Curdy, Charles Albert | Roch, Walter F. (Pembroke) |
| Furness, Stephen | M'Laren, H. (Leicester, Bosworth) | Rowlands, James |
| Gelder, Sir William Alfred | M'Micking, Major Gilbert | St. Maur, Harold |
| Gill, Alfred Henry | Marshall, Arthur Harold | Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland) |
| Glanville, Harold James | Mason, David M. (Coventry) | Simuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees) |
| Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford | Masterman, C. F. G. | Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel) |
| Goldstone, Frank | Mathias, Richard | Scan Ian, Thomas |
| Greig, Colonel James William | Meagher, Michael | Scott, A. M'Callum (Glasgow, Bridgeton) |
| Guest, Major Hon. C. H. C. (Pembroke) | Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.) | Seely, Col. Right Hon. J. E. B. |
| Guest, Hon. Frederick E. (Dorset, E.) | Mond, Sir Alfred | Sherwell, Arthur James |
| Gwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway) | Money, L. G. Chiozza | Shortt, Edward |
| Hackett, John | Montagu, Hon. E. S. | Simon, Sir John Allsebrook |
| Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose) | Mooney, John J. | Smith, Albert (Lancs., Clitheroe) |
| Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale) | Morgan, George Hay | Smith, H. B. Lees (Northampton) |
| Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, W.) | Morrell, Philip | Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.) |
| Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth) | Munro, Robert | Soares, Ernest Joseph |
| Havelock-Allan, Sir Henry | Murray, Capt. Hon. Arthur C. | Stanley, Albert (Staffs, N. W.) |
| Haworth, Arthur A. | Needham, Christopher T. | Strauss, Edward A. (Southwark, West) |
| Hayden, John Patrick | Neilson, Francis | Summers, James Wooley |
| Hayward, Evan | Nolan, Joseph | Sutton, John E. |
| Helme, Norval Watson | Norman, Sir Henry | Taylor, John W. (Durham) |
| Henderson, Arthur (Durham) | O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) | Tennant, Harold John |
| Henry, Sir Charles | O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.) | Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton) |
| Higham, John Sharp | O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool) | Toulmin, George |
| Hinds, John | O'Dowd, John | Trevelyan, Charles Philips |
| Hobhouse, Rt. Hon. Charles E. H. | O'Grady, James | Ure, Rt. Hon. Alexander |
| Holt, Richard Durning | O'Kelly, Edward P. (Wicklow, W.) | Verney, Sir Harry |
| Horne, Charles Silvester (Ipswich) | O'Malley, William | Walters, John Tudor |
| Hudson, Walter | O'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, S.) | Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent) |
| Hughes, Spencer Leigh | O'Shaughnessy, P. J. | Ward, W. Dudley (Southampton) |
| Isaacs, Sir Rufus Daniel | O'Sullivan, Timothy | Wardle, George J. |
| John, Edward Thomas | Palmer, Godfrey Mark | Waring, Walter |
| Johnson, William | Parker, James (Halifax) | Warner, Sir Thomas Courtenay |
| Jones, Edgar R. (Merthyr Tydvil) | Pearce, Robert (Staffs., Leek) | Webb, H. |
| Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) | Pearson, Hon. Weetman H. M. | Wedgwood, Josiah C. |
| Jones, Leif Stratton (Notts, Rushcliffe) | Pease, Rt. Hon. Joseph A. (Rotherham) | White, Patrick (Meath, North) |
| Jones, William (Carnarvonshire) | Pirie, Duncan V. | Whyte, A. F. |
| Jones, W. S. Glyn- (T. H'mts, Stepney) | Pointer, Joseph | Williams, John (Glamorgan) |
| Joyce, Michael | Pollard, Sir George H. | Williams, Penry (Middlesbrough) |
| Keating, Matthew | Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H. | Wilson, Hon. G. G. (Hull, W.) |
| Kellaway, Frederick George | Power, Patrick Joseph | Wilson, John (Durham, Mid) |
| King, Joseph (Somerset, N.) | Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central) | Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton) |
| Lambert, George (Devon, S. Molton) | Priestley, Sir W. E. B. (Bradford, E.) | Wood, T. M'Kinnon (Glasgow) |
| Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade) | Primrose, Hon. Neil James | Young, William (Perth, East) |
| Law, Hugh A. | Raffan, Peter Wilson | |
| Lawson, Sir W.(Cumb'rld., Cockerm'th) | Raphael, Sir Herbert H. | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— Mr. Illingworth and Mr. Gulland. |
| Leach, Charles | Rea, Walter Russell (Scarborough) |
§ Mr. CHURCHILLI beg to move, "That in respect of the words of the Clause to the end thereof the Chair be empowered to select the Amendments to be proposed."
§ Question put, "That in respect of the words of the Clause down to the end of the Clause the Chair be empowered to select the Amendments to be proposed."
1586§ Viscount CASTLEREAGH (seated and wearing his hat)On a point of Order. May I ask whether the Motion you have just put is not one which we are entitled to discuss?
§ The DEPUTY-CHAIRMANCertainly not.
§ The Committee divided: Ayes, 221; Noes, 153.
1589| Division No. 52.] | AYES. | [2.16 a.m. |
| Abraham, William (Dublin Harbour) | Barton, W. | Brady, J. P. |
| Acland, Francis Dyke | Beale, W. P. | Brocklehurst, W. B. |
| Adamson, William | Benn, W. W. (T. H'mts, St. Geo.) | Brunner, J. F. L. |
| Addison, Dr. C. | Bentham, G. J. | Burke, E. Haviland. |
| Agar-Robartes, Hen. T. C. R. | Birred, Rt. Hon. Augustine | Burns, Rt. Hon. John |
| Allen, Arthur Acland (Dumbartonshire) | Black, Arthur W. | Carr-Gomm, H. W. |
| Armitage, R. | Booth, Frederick Handel | Cawley, Harold T. (Heywood) |
| Baker, H. T. (Accrington) | Bowerman, C W. | Chancellor, Henry George |
| Barran, Rowland Hurst (Leeds, N.) | Boyle, D. (Mayo, N.) | Chapple, Dr. W. A. |
| Barry, Redmond John (Tyrone, N.) | Brace, William | Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston S. |
| Clancy, John Joseph | John, Edward Thomas | Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H. |
| Clough, William | Johnson, W. | Power, Patrick Joseph |
| Clynes, J. R. | Jones, Edgar (Merthyr Tydvil) | Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central) |
| Collins, G. P. (Greenock) | Jones, H. Haydn (Merioneth) | Priestley, Sir W. E. S. (Bradford, E.) |
| Condon, Thomas Joseph | Jones, Leif Stratten (Notts, Rushcliffe) | Primrose, Hon. Neil James |
| Corbett, A. Cameron | Jones, William (Carnarvonshire) | Raffan, Peter W. |
| Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. | Jones, W. S. Glyn- (T. H'mts, Stepney) | Raphael, Sir Herbert H. |
| Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth) | Keating, M. | Rea, Walter Russell (Scarborough) |
| Crawshay-Williams, Eliot | Kellaway, Frederick George | Redmond, John E. (Waterford) |
| Crumley, Patrick | Kilbride, Denis | Redmond, William Archer (Tyrone, E.) |
| Davies, E. William (Eifion) | King, J. (Somerset, N.) | Rendall, Atheistan |
| Davies, Timothy (Lines., Louth) | Lambert, George (Devon, S. Molton) | Richards, Thomas |
| Dawes, J. A. | Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade) | Richardson, Thomas (Whitehaven) |
| Delany, William | Law, Hugh A. | Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln) |
| Dewar, Sir J. A. | Lawson, Sir W.(Cumb'rld., Cockerm'th) | Roberts, G. H. (Norwich) |
| Dillon, John | Leach, Charles | Roberts, Sir J. H. (Denbighs) |
| Doris, W. | Levy, Sir Maurice | Robertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradford) |
| Duffy, William J. | Lewis, John Herbert | Robinson, Sydney |
| Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness) | Low, Sir F. (Norwich) | Roch, Walter F. (Pembroke) |
| Edwards, Allen C. (Glamorgan, E.) | Lundon, T. | Rowlands, James |
| Edwards, Sir Francis (Radnor) | Lynch, A. A. | St. Maur, Harold |
| Elibank, Rt. Hon. Master of | Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester) | Samuel, Rt. Hon H. L. (Cleveland) |
| Elverston, H. | MacGhee, Richard | Samuel, J. (Stockton-on Tees) |
| Esmonde, Dr. John (Tipperary, N.) | Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J. | Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel) |
| Esmonde, Sir Thomas (Wexford, N.) | MacNeill, John Gordon Switt | Scanlan, Thomas |
| Essex, Richard Walter | MacVeagh, Jeremiah | Scott, A. M'Callum (Glasgow, Bridgeton) |
| Falconer, J. | M'Curdy, C. A. | Seely, Col., Right Hon. J. E. B. |
| Farrell, James Patrick | M'Laren, H. D. (Leices.) | Sherwell, Arthur James |
| Fenwick, Charles | M'Micking, Major Gilbert | Shortt, Edward |
| Ferens, T. R. | Marshall, Arthur Harold | Simon, Sir John Allsebrook |
| Ffrench, Peter | Mason, Davit M. (Coventry) | Smith, Albert (Lancs., Clitheroe) |
| Field, William | Masterman, C. F. G. | Smith, H. B. L. (Northampton |
| Fiennes, Hon. Eustace Edward | Mathias, Richard | Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.) |
| Fitzgibbon, John | Meagher, Michael | Soares, Ernest J. |
| Flavin, Michael Joseph | Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.) | Stanley, Albert (Staffs, N. W.) |
| Furness, Stephen W. | Mond, Sir Alfred M. | Strauss, Edward A. (Southwark, West) |
| Gelder, Sir W. A. | Money, L. G. Chiozza | Summers, James Woolley |
| Gill, A. H. | Montagu, Hon. E. S. | Sutton, John E. |
| Glanville, H. J. | Mooney, J. J. | Taylor, John W. (Durham) |
| Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford | Morgan, George Hay | Tennant, Harold John |
| Goldstone, Frank | Morrell, Philip | Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton) |
| Grieg, Colonel J. W. | Munro, R. | Toulmin, George |
| Guest, Major Hon. C. H. C. (Pembroke) | Murray, Captain Hon. A. C. | Trevelyan, Charles Philips |
| Guest, Hon. Frederick E. (Dorset, E.) | Needham, Christopher T. | Ure, Rt. Hen. Alexander |
| Gwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway) | Neilson, Francis | Verney, Sir Harry |
| Hackett, John | Nolan, Joseph | Walters, John Tudor |
| Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose) | Norman, Sir Henry | Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent) |
| Harvey, A. G C. (Rochdale) | O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) | Ward, W. Dudley (Southampton) |
| Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, W.) | O'Connor, John (Kildare, P.) | Wardle, George J. |
| Haslaw, Lewis (Monmouth) | O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool) | Waring, Walter |
| Havelock-Allan, Sir Henry | O'Dowd, John | Warner, Sir Thomas Courtenay T. |
| Haworth, Arthur A. | O'Grady, James | Webb, H. |
| Hayden, John Patrick | O'Kelly, Edward P. (Wicklow, W.) | White, Patrick (Meath, North) |
| Hayward, Evan | O'Malley, William. | Whyte, A. F. (Perth) |
| Helme, Narval Watson | O'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, S.) | Williams, J. (Glamorgan) |
| Henderson, Arthur (Durham) | O'Shaughnessy, P. J. | Williams, P. (Middlesbrough) |
| Henry, Sir Charles S. | O'Sullivan, Timothy | Wilson, Hon. G. G. (Hull, W.) |
| Higham, John Sharp | Palmer, Godfrey Mark | Wilson, John (Durham, Mid) |
| Hinds, John | Parker, James (Halifax) | Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton) |
| Hobhouse, Rt. Hon. Charles E. H. | Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek) | Wood, T. M'Kinnon (Glasgow) |
| Holt, Richard Durning | Pearson, Hon. Weetman H. M. | Young, W. (Perthshire, E.) |
| Horne, C. Silvester (Ipswich) | Pease, Rt. Hon. Joseph A. (Rotherham) | |
| Hudson, Walter | Pirie, Duncan V. | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— Mr. Illingworth and Mr. Gulland. |
| Hughes, S. L. | Pointer, Joseph | |
| Isaacs, Sir Rufus Daniel) | Pollard, Sir George H. | |
| NOES. | ||
| Acland-Hood, Rt. Hon. Sir Alex. F. | Benn, Arthur Shirley (Plymouth) | Castlereagh, Viscount |
| Archer-Shee, Major M. | Benn, Ion H. (Greenwich) | Cator, John |
| Ashley, W. W. | Bennett-Goldney. Francis | Cave, George |
| Astor, Waldorf | Bentinck, Lord H. Cavendish. | Cecil, Lord Hugh (Oxford University) |
| Baird, J. L. | Bigland, Alfred | Chaloner, Colonel R. G. W. |
| Baker, Sir R. L. (Dorset, N.) | Bird, A. | Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J. A. (Worc'r.) |
| Balcarres, Lord | Boscawen, Sackville T. Griffith. | Clay, Captain H. H. Spender |
| Baldwin, Stanley | Boyton, J. | Clive, Percy Archer |
| Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (City Lond.) | Brassey, H. Leonard Campbell | Clyde, J. Avon |
| Banbury, Sir Frederick George | Bridgeman, William Clive | Cooper, Richard Ashmole |
| Baring, Captain Hon. G. V. | Bull, Sir William James | Courthope, G. Loyd |
| Barlow, Montague (Salford, South) | Burgoyne, A. H. | Craig, Captain James (Down, E.) |
| Barnston, H. | Burn, Col. C. R. | Craig, Norman (Kent) |
| Barrie, H. T. (Londonderry, N.) | Butcher, J. G. | Craik, Sir Henry |
| Bathurst, Hon. A. B. (Glouc., E.) | Carlile, E. Hildred | Crichton-Stuart, Lord Ninian |
| Beach, Hon. Michael Hugh Hicks | Cassel, Felix | Croft, H. P. |
| Dairymple, Viscount | Lewisham, Viscount | Royds, Edmund |
| Doughty, Sir George | Locker-Lampson, O. (Ramsey) | Rutherford, Watson (L'pool, W. Derby) |
| Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers. | Lockwood, Rt. Hon. Lt.-Col. A. R. | Salter, Arthur Clavell |
| Eyres-Monsell, B. M. | Long, Rt. Hon. Walter | Sanders, Robert A. |
| Fell, Arthur | Mackinder, Halford J. | Sanderson, Lancelot |
| Fisher, William Hayes | Malcolm, Ian | Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.) |
| Fleming, Valentine | Mills, Hon. Charles Thomas | Smith, Harold (Warrington) |
| Fletcher, John Samuel (Hampstead) | Moore, William | Spear, John Ward |
| Foster, Philip Staveley | Morpeth, Viscount | Stanier, Beville |
| Gastrell, Major W. H. | Morrison-Bell, Major A. C. (Honiton) | Stanley, Hon. G. F. (Preston) |
| Gibbs, G. A. | Mount, William Arthur | Staveley-Hill, Henry (Staffordshire) |
| Gilmour, Captain J. | Neville, Reginald J. N. | Steel-Maitland, A. D. |
| Goldsmith, Frank | Newman, John R. P. | Stewart, Gershom |
| Gordon, J. | Newton, Harry Kottingham | Swift, Rigby |
| Greene, W. R. | Nicholson, Wm. G. (Petersfield) | Terrell, H. (Gloucester) |
| Gretton, John | Nield, Herbert | Thomson, W. Mitchell- (Down, N.) |
| Guinness, Hon. W. E. | Norton-Griffiths, J. | Touche, George Alexander |
| Hall, D. B. (Isle of Wight) | O'Neill, Hon. A. E. B. (Antrim, Mid) | Tullibardine, Marquess of |
| Hambro, Angus Vaidemar | Orde-Powlett, Hon. W. G. A. | Walker, Col. William Hall |
| Hardy, Laurence (Kent, Ashford) | Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William | Weigall, Capt. A. G. |
| Harris, Henry Percy | Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington) | Wheler, Granville C. H. |
| Helmsley, Viscount | Peel, Capt. R. F. (Woodbridge) | White, Major G. D. (Lancs., Southport) |
| Henderson, Major H. (Berks, Abingdon) | Peel, Hon. W. R. W. (Taunton) | Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.) |
| Hillier, Dr. A P. | Perkins, Walter F. | Willoughby, Major Hon. Claude |
| Hill-Wood, Samuel | Peto, Basil Edward | Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E. R.) |
| Hohler, G. F. | Pole-Carew, Sir R. | Winterton, Earl |
| Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield) | Pollock, Ernest Murray | Wolmer, Viscount |
| Horne, W. E. (Surrey, Guildford) | Pretyman, E. G. | Wood, Hon. E. F. L. (Ripon) |
| Hunt, Rowland | Pryce-Jones, Col. E. | Wood, John (Stalybridge) |
| Hunter, Sir C. R. (Bath) | Quilter, William Eley C. | Worthington-Evans, L. |
| Jardine, E. (Somerset, E.) | Rawson, Colonel R. H. | Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart. |
| Kebty-Fletcher, J. R. | Remnant, James Farquharson | Yate, Col. C. E. |
| Kerr-Smiley, Peter Kerr | Rice, Hon. Walter F. | Younger, George |
| Kerry, Earl of | Rolleston, Sir John | |
| Knight, Capt. E. A. | Ronaldshay, Earl of | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— Lord E. Talbot and Mr. Forster. |
| Lawson, Hon. H. (T. Hints. Mile End) | Rothschild, Lionel de |
§ The DEPUTY - CHAIRMANThe Amendment which I propose to take is that of the hon. Member for Sheffield (Mr. J. Hope) to leave out the word "fifteen" ["rent exceeds the sum of fifteen pounds"] and to insert the words "twenty-five."
§ Mr. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAINOn a point of Order. May I make an appeal to you, Sir. I understand that several hon. Members have handed in Amendments to leave out the words from the "pounds" ["does not exceed five hundred pounds"] the "pounds" ["rent exceeds five hundred pounds."] I venture to submit that the matter is one of great importance. If our construction of the words is right, it will nullify very largely the value of the section as a whole, and I think will nullify the case which the Government intend to meet. May we not have a discussion upon these Amendments?
§ Sir WILLIAM BULLMay I appeal to you on another point? Somerset House at present is blocked with 100,000 deeds which cannot be dealt with owing to the Stamp Duties. I put down a form of Clause which would make that point quite clear. I think that is one matter which ought to be discussed.
§ The DEPUTY-CHAIRMANI have considered all the Amendments, and my decision under the powers given to me is that 1590 the Amendment of the hon. Member for Sheffield is the one I shall accept.
§ Mr. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAINI rise to a point of Order.
§ The DEPUTY-CHAIRMANI hope the Committee will listen to the right hon. Gentleman on the point of Order.
§ Mr. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAINI wish to ask whether the Amendments I specially referred to will deal with the depriving of builders of liberty to develop an estate?
§ The DEPUTY-CHAIRMANI have considered all the Amendments before me, including this particular Amendment. The Amendment of the hon. Member for Sheffield is the one I shall allow to be moved.
§ Mr. STUART-WORTLEYI wish to ask, on a point of Order, Sir, whether you hold that you have no power to accept more than one of the Amendments?
§ Mr. BUTCHERAre you not entitled to ask for an explanation from anyone who has an Amendment down which he thinks is important? Perhaps you will allow me to say two or three words on my Amendment.
§ The DEPUTY-CHAIRMANIt is quite true I have that power, and if I require it I 1591 will exercise it. If I thought fit I would call upon hon. Members for that purpose. It is to be done if the Chairman thinks fit.
§ Mr. BUTCHERAm I not entitled to ask, as a matter of courtesy, whether the Amendment which I have down is not an Amendment which deserves discussion?
§ The DEPUTY-CHAIRMANI have decided against it.
§ Mr. JAMES HOPEmoved to leave out the word "fifteen" ["exceeds the sum of fifteen"] and to substitute "twenty-five." I cannot understand why the Government make this limit of fifteen. This Clause, as I understand it, deals with the question where there is a composite consideration given for the lease or tack, part of the consideration being a premium in cash and part of it being in rent. Of course under this you might have a capital consideration of £200 in premium and £15 a year in rent, or you might have £400 in premium and £5 a year in rent. Now under the Clause as drawn by the Government if you have a large rent and a small premium the transaction would be unfairly penalised. If, on the other hand, you have a large premium and a rent of under £15 that transaction will escape a great part of the Stamp Duty. I cannot understand why the Government have drawn a distinction where the total value of the premium and the rent combined is not more than £500. It seems to me immaterial from their point of view how it is split between the premium and the rent. Therefore I would suggest that so long as the total value of the composite consideration does not exceed £500 my proposal shall hold good. In many cases of a lease of this kind it is inconvenient for the lessee to pay a high premium. For example, he might be very willing to pay, say, £50 down and £20 a year in Tent rather than pay some £100 in premium with lesser rent after. I do not see why the Government should encourage one class of transaction at the expense of another. I therefore wish to substitute £25 for £15, because £25 represents in round figures the value of a £500 transaction. I think that would be a much fairer limit to take than £15, but of course, if the Government say it is too high we might agree on £22 10s., with a premium equivalent to make up the total consideration to £500.
§ Mr. CAVEMay I say a word in support of the Amendment. It is a point of importance. The Committee know, I think, how this Clause arose. The Act of last year exempted conveyances for a sum not exceeding £500 from double duty, but there was no corresponding exemption for leases. I had quite a number of communications from small clerks and people of that kind who were taking small houses at a premium. In answer to questions the Government undertook to meet the point. So far as the first part of this Clause goes they are meeting it, but the proviso needs consideration. The Government, I suppose, say that the exemption was for £500 purchases and must not apply to valuable leases—leases of houses at a heavy rent, although the actual premium is a small one. But I venture to think they have put the limit too low. The principal people who want this relief are people who take houses not at £15 but at £25 or more, often at £30. For myself, I should prefer the higher limit of £30 to that of £25. At all events, I think we are perfectly reasonable in asking for the £25. That will cover a large number of houses in the suburbs of London and country towns which are taken by clerks and others. I believe the whole system of increasing the Stamp Duty last year was a mistake, because it interferes with the transfer of land instead of making it more easy.
§ Mr. WATSON RUTHERFORDI think there are three reasons why this Amendment ought to be adopted. In the first place, the £25 is the identical equivalent in rent of the £500 limit under which abatement is to be given in all other cases. The second reason is that in the original Act itself, I find £25 is the only limit. I think, however, there is a more important reason, and that is that in Lancashire almost every skilled artisan lives in a house that is let at £19 19s. a year. The reason for letting at that figure is that it enables them to compound for the rates, and there are thousands of houses built exactly to fit that particular rental. If we enlarge this limit up to £25 the effect will be that whenever houses of that class are dealt with there will be no exemption from the Stamp Duty.
§ Sir RUFUS ISAACSIt is quite correct that the object of this Clause is to extend the benefit to those who have small property—in respect of houses for which there is only a small rent to provide the same exemption that is granted under Section 73 1593 of the principal Act, which includes conveyances where the consideration does not exceed £500. But obviously there must be some limitation on the rental. Otherwise you would have this exemption applying, for example, in respect of houses in Grosvenor Square. Consequently we have been obliged to put in some words of limitation. We are not strictly wedded to the particular limitation which we have introduced into this section. It was thought that it was sufficient, but I freely admit all that was said in regard to the £19 19s., and the opportunity of compounding the rates, and so many houses are held by the artisan classes in Lancashire at that rate, and what we are desirous of doing is extending the benefit of this exemption to artisans. Consequently I shall be quite willing, if the Committee agree to this, to go a great deal further than was intended, and to extend the limit from £15 to £20. If the hon. Member will accept that, it is going a long way because there is very little room for a premium with a rental of £20, and he himself said he was willing to accept £22 10s. I think that if we say £20, that goes as far as can properly be asked. If you take it at twenty years' purchase it will leave very little room for a premium. If the Committee will accept that figure, and insert £20 instead of the £25, I shall on behalf of the Government accept it. I agree with the observations made on the other side of the Committee, and I am in favour of this Amendment, the whole object of which was to arrive at a figure which was a right figure, bearing in mind what it was we intended to do in this Bill.
§ Mr. BUTCHERIf I understand the Attorney-General aright, he wants to assimilate the practice as to exemptions in the case of leases to that already brought into the Finance Act last year with regard to freeholds. In other words, where the consideration for the payment of a freehold is £500 there is an exemption, and he wants to assimilate that practice to the case of leaseholds, and that where a man buys a leasehold house at £500 he should not pay a double stamp. Am I right in that? If that be correct, the £20 is too little, for in this small class of property the expense of the collection of rent and so forth is so much that you do not get more than fifteen years' purchase of rent. With a rent of £30 you get about £300 and no more, and if you allow the purchase price of £500 you will have to put in £25. 1594 I hope the Attorney-General appreciates my point. Fifteen years' purchase is the utmost you can get for this class of property, and if you want to allow £500 as the purchase price, then the exemption must be made more than £20. You ought to make it £30. I think this is a matter on which we can get some support from Ireland. It is really an Irish question. I see the Irish Members getting exceedingly uneasy over this, because they know full well that there is no part of this Budget which is more loathed and detested in Ireland than the Stamp Duty and the portions affecting land, because there are in. Ireland 200,000 or 300,000 small owners of land who have been very hard hit, and will be in the future, when they come to know about it. It has been kept from them up till now. I know what a very awkward position Irish Members are in here. They were forced to vote for this Budget last year. I appeal to my countrymen from Ireland. Here is a chance for them. They will not turn out the Government—at least I do not think so. At any rate they might risk it, and I ask them to support this appeal on our part for the benefit of those poor men whose interests up to now they have neglected. They can support it at no risk to themselves and at no injury to the Government. This exempts persons who pay a few shillings a week up to £25 a year. I say that this double Stamp Duty imposed upon leases and conveyances by the Act of last year might be all right for the people who pay £500 or £1,000 or more in rent, and who buy houses in Park Lane or Grosvenor Square, but for small men living in houses of £25 and £30 a year, and these poor men in Ireland, I say that this small reasonable exemption might be given.
§ Earl WINTERTONI think this is a very valuable sample of the usefulness of discussing Amendments of this kind. It would not be in order for me to make any comment on what the Committee has decided in regard to what is known as the kangaroo guillotine. There might have been, and we know there were, other amendments which the Government would have accepted, and which would have improved the Bill, but the Attorney-General has not seen them.
§ Sir RUFUS ISAACSI saw the Amendments.
§ Lord HUGH CECILDid you consult the Chairman?
§ Earl WINTERTONI do not wish to go into the question of how the Attorney-General saw them. I think it is very improper that he should have done so.
§ The DEPUTY-CHAIRMANI cannot allow this discussion to continue. I must ask the Noble Lord to address himself to the Amendment.
§ Earl WINTERTONTo the best of my ability, I am endeavouring to do so. The Attorney-General, by way of interjection, I understood to say that he had seen the Amendments. I say it occurred to me that it was improper for him to do so.
§ Sir RUFUS ISAACSMay I ask your ruling on a point of Order?
§ The DEPUTY-CHAIRMANI do not think this is a matter to be discussed. I have used my discretion as ordered to do by the Standing Orders, and that matter was completed.
§ Earl WINTERTONI should not have referred to the matter at all but for the Attorney-General's interruption.
§ Sir RUFUS ISAACSMay I ask you, Sir, whether I am in order in seeing the Amendments which are handed in for discussion during the Debate in this Committee and whether there is anything improper in my doing so?
§ Mr. REMNANTSelecting them.
§ The DEPUTY-CHAIRMANIt is not a matter of order. Anyone from any quarter of the House is entitled to come and ask which are the Amendments which have been handed in.
§ Mr. JAMES PARKERThe hon. Member for the Holborn Division suggested that the Attorney-General selected them. I suggest he is out of order.
§ The DEPUTY-CHAIRMANI did not gather that. If that had been done it would have been a reflection on the Chair.
§ Earl WINTERTONI never used the words "selected them" at all.
§ Mr. CHIOZZA MONEYOn a point of Order. I distinctly heard the Noble Lord— [HON. MEMBERS: "Order."]
§ The DEPUTY-CHAIRMANOrder! order! Will hon. Members allow the hon. Member to put his point of order?
§ Mr. MONEYI distinctly heard the Noble Lord charge the Attorney-General with having consulted the Chair.
§ The DEPUTY-CHAIRMANThat is not a point of Order.
§ Earl WINTERTONI only wish to say that I would be the last to accuse the Attorney-General of any improper conduct in the sense he took it. If I said anything that seemed to attack him personally, I regret it. The whole question only shows the unhappy state of muddle the House and the Government Bench gets into in discussing this matter at three o'clock in the morning. I think the Amendment the Government have in principle accepted is one of those instances where the much abused and tyrannised private Member shows how he can influence the Government. If the Government had their way, they would prevent any private Member from saying anything. The Government go on the assumption that their Finance Bill is so well drafted that there cannot possibly be any fault in it, and that therefore the presence of private Members on either side of the House is entirely superfluous. I consider that this Amendment the Government have decided to accept in principle is a valuable illustration of the use of private Members. I hope its acceptance will induce the Home Secretary, who is still leading the House, but who I do not see on the Treasury Bench, not to pursue in the Kangaroo Closure.
§ Mr. JAMES HOPEI thank the Attorney-General, and will act on his suggestion. When the word "fifteen" has been struck out I will move to insert the word "twenty-five."
§ Question, "That the word 'fifteen' stand part of the Clause," put, and negatived.
§ Question put, "That twenty-five be there inserted."
§ Mr. JAMES HOPEI move "That the word 'twenty' be inserted."
§ Question put, "That the word 'twenty' be there inserted."
§ Mr. CAVEI do not think twenty is sufficient. It is really a serious matter. The Amendment proposed to be inserted will only protect a certain class of artisans. It will not really protect the class strongly represented in my own division and in other divisions in the country—that is the small clerk, who is very often more hard up than the well-to-do artisan. I think he should have a certain amount of consideration in this matter 1597 from the Government. The rental that kind of man often pays is just round about £25. I think £25 is really the right figure we should have. So far as I am concerned I do not assent to the Amendment.
§ Viscount CASTLEREAGHI should like to support the proposal the hon. Gentleman who sits behind me has made. I do not think £20 is adequate. I do not know the spirit in which the hon. and learned Gentleman has given us £20—whether it is that it is three o'clock in the morning, or whether it is that he came down to the House this afternoon with the avowed intention of giving us £20. Has he thought out the Question? I should like to have an answer from the hon. and learned Gentleman.
Mr. WORTHINGTON-EVANSThe Attorney-General told us he was not wedded to this particular form of limitation. In the view of the Government some limitation is necessary. I want to call the attention of the hon. and learned Gentleman to the composite form of limitation this Clause now contains. First the consideration is not to be more than £500, and the rent is not to be more than £15 or £20. But that really makes a limitation to cover a house of the value of £700, because the consideration of £500 and the rent of £15 or £20 makes the house at any rate worth another £200, so that the freehold value of that house will be at least £700. The Government are prepared to exempt that class of house. Does it matter to the Government whether it is more in rent and less in consideration, or more in consideration and less in rent. I ask the hon. and learned Gentleman before he definitely commits himself to this insufficient amount of £20 to reconsider the Clause.
§ Sir F. BANBURYMay I remove a misapprehension from the mind of the hon. and learned Gentleman. May I assure him that bad as the outlook is for this country it is not so bad as to ensure that for £500 he will secure a house in Grosvenor Square for a premium of £500 or at a rental of £20. He is taking a too optimistic view of the matter.
§ 3.0 A.M.
§ Mr. MITCHELL-THOMSONI hope the learned Attorney-General will not think I am looking a gift horse in the mouth if I put him one question. Some of us think that the limit of £20 is high enough. £25 has 1598 been suggested. I understand the learned Attorney-General does not feel able to agree to £25 because of the extra cost to the Treasury. It would help the Committee very much if he could tell us what is the extra cost involved in the concession of £20 as against £25, and what would be the extra cost of the concession of £25. These are obviously very material points. I assume the extra cost must have been worked out, and that the Attorney-General has the figures. Otherwise he would not have been able to make any concession at all.
§ Mr. POLLOCKI desire to support the hon. Member for Kingston (Mr. Cave) in pressing this Amendment on the learned Attorney-General, and maintaining the exemption at £25. As has been pointed out, the Attorney-General intends to grant the exemption in favour of those persons, be they artisans or any other class—occupiers, owners or purchasers of small houses who are concerned in the very limited transaction which is involved in this proviso. The limit of £20 he accepts because of the very cogent reasons given by the hon. Member for the West Derby Division of Liverpool (Mr. W. Rutherford), but still more is there good ground for pressing the £25, because of the other class of small clerks and others who occupy these houses. If the amount involved is a small one could not the Attorney-General enlarge his sympathy and make sure that these persons are not prevented from enjoying the privileges of the proviso, merely to recover some small sum for the Treasury. On the other hand the indulgence thus given to a very large class would be a very valuable privilege.
§ Viscount HELMSLEYI was very much struck by the argument of my hon. Friend (Mr. Worthington-Evans) who pointed out that this was a composite consideration. That being the case I think the Attorney-General need not consider so carefully the amount of loss involved to the Exchequer if he adopted the advice of reducing pro tanto the amount of the consideration paid and increased the rental. The Attorney-General made use of the word "premium." If the Chancellor of the Exchequer were here, he would not have called it by that euphemistic title. His word for it was "fine," and "blackmail" was the title he gave outside the House to this business transaction. The Government might adhere to that here if they like it so much outside. If the Attorney-General reduced the amount of the fine 1599 or blackmail and increased the amount of the rent, the Exchequer would not suffer in the least, and at the same time an exemption would be given where it is much needed. The Attorney-General might have adopted the same course now with greater effect which the Solicitor-General adopted on another Clause earlier in the evening. The other concession which the Solicitor-General promised to make on Report might well have been made at the moment, and this concession might have been postponed until the Report Stage, because the Clause might very well be
§ remodelled altogether. We would not so much object to the fine or blackmail being lower if the rent was increased.
§ Mr. MITCHELL-THOMSONMay I ask if the Attorney-General is in a position to give an answer to the, question I put as to the cost?
§ Sir RUFUS ISAACSI am not able to say.
§ Question put, "That the word 'twenty-five' be there inserted."
§ The Committee divided: Ayes, 218; Noes, 152.
1601| Division No. 53.] | AYES. | [3.8 a.m. |
| Abraham, William (Dublin Harbour) | Flennes, Hon. Eustace Edward | MacVeagh, Jeremiah |
| Acland, Francis Dyke | Fitzgibbon, John | M'Curdy, C. A. |
| Adamson, William | Flavin, Michael Joseph | M'Laren, H. D. (Leics., Bosworth) |
| Addison, Dr. C. | Furness, Stephen | M'Micking, Major Gilbert |
| Agar-Robartes, Hon. T. C. R. | Gelder, Sir W. A. | Marshall, Arthur Harold |
| Allen, Arthur Acland (Dumbartonshire) | Gill, A. H. | Mason, David M (Coventry) |
| Armitage, R. | Glanville, H. J. | Masterman, C. F. G. |
| Baker, H. T. (Accrington) | Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford | Mathias, Richard |
| Barran, Rowland Hirst (Leeds, N.) | Goldstone, Frank | Meagher, Michael |
| Barry, Redmond John (Tyrone, N.) | Greig, Colonel J. W. | Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.) |
| Barton, William | Guest, Major Hon. C. H. C. (Pembroke) | Mond, Sir Alfred M. |
| Beale, W. P. | Guest, Hon. Frederick E. (Dorset, E.) | Money, L. G. Chiozza |
| Bentham, G. J. | Gulland, John W. | Montagu, Hon. E. S. |
| Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine | Gwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway) | Mooney, J. J. |
| Black, Arthur W. | Hackett, J. | Morgan, George Hay |
| Booth, Frederick Handel | Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose) | Morrell, Philip |
| Bowerman, C. W. | Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale) | Munro, R. |
| Boyle, D. (Mayo, N.) | Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, W.) | Needham, Christopher T. |
| Brace, William | Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth) | Neilson, Francis |
| Brady, J. P. | Havelock-Allen, Sir Henry | Nolan, Joseph |
| Brocklehurst, W. B. | Haworth, Arthur A. | Norman, Sir Henry |
| Brunner, J. F. L. | Hayden, John Patrick | O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) |
| Burke, E. Haviland. | Hayward, Evan | O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.) |
| Burns, Rt. Hon. John | Helme, Norval Watson | O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool) |
| Carr-Gomm, H. W. | Henderson, Arthur (Durhon) | O'Dowd, John |
| Cawley, Harold T. (Heywood) | Henry, Sir Charles S. | O'Grady, James |
| Chancellor, H. G. | Higham, John Sharp | O'Kelly, Edward P. (Wicklow, W.) |
| Chapple, Dr. W. A. | Hinds, John | O'Malley, William |
| Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston S. | Hobhouse, Rt. Hon. Charles E. H. | O'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, S.) |
| Clancy, John Joseph | Holt, Richard Durning | O'Shaughnessy, P. J. |
| Clough, William | Horne, C. Silvester (Ipswich) | O'Sullivan, Timothy |
| Clynes, J. R. | Hudson, Waiter | Palmer, Godfrey M. |
| Collins, G. P. (Greenock) | Hughes, S. L | Parker, James (Halifax) |
| Condon, Thomas Joseph | Illingworth, Percy H. | Pearce, Robert (Staffs., Leek) |
| Corbett, A. Cameron | Isaacs, Sir Rufus Daniel | Pearson, Hon. Weetman H. M. |
| Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. | John, Edward Thomas | Pease, Rt. Hon. Joseph A. (Rotherham) |
| Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth) | Johnson, W. | Pirie, Duncan V. |
| Crawshay-Williams, Eliot | Jones, Edgar (Merthyr Tydvil) | Pointer, Joseph |
| Crumley, Patrick | Jones, H. Haydn (Merioneth) | Pollard, Sir George H. |
| Davies, E. William (Eifion) | Jones, Leif Stratten (Notts, Rushcliffe) | Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H. |
| Davies, Timothy (Lincs., Louth) | Jones, William (Carnarvonshire) | Power, Patrick Joseph |
| Dawes, J. A. | Jones, W. S. Glyn- (T. H'mts, Stepney) | Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central) |
| Delany, William | Keating, M. | Priestley, Sir W. E. B. (Bradford, E.) |
| Dillon, John | Kellaway, Frederick George | Primrose, Hon. Neil James |
| Doris, W. | Kilbride, Denis | Raffan, Peter Wilson |
| Duffy, William J. | King, J. (Somerset, N.) | Raphael, Sir Herbert H. |
| Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness) | Lambert, George (Devon, S. Molton) | Rea, Walter Russell (Scarborough) |
| Edwards, Allen C. (Glamorgan, E.) | Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade) | Redmond, John E. (Waterford) |
| Edwards, Sir Francis (Radnor) | Law, Hugh A. | Redmond, William Archer (Tyrone, E.) |
| Elibank, Rt. Hon. Master of | Lawson, Sir W.(Cumb'rld., Cockerm'th) | Rendall, Atheistan |
| Elverston, H. | Leach, Charles | Richards, Thomas |
| Esmonde, Dr. John (Tipperary, N.) | Levy, Sir Maurice | Richardson, Thomas (Whitehaven) |
| Esmonde, Sir Thomas (Wexford, N.) | Lewis, John Herbert | Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln) |
| Essex, Richard Walter | Low, Sir F. (Norwich) | Roberts, G. H. (Norwich) |
| Falconer, J. | Lundon, T. | Robertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradford) |
| Farrell, James Patrick | Lynch, A. A. | Robinson, Sydney |
| Fenwick, Charles | Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester) | Roch, Walter F. (Pembroke) |
| Ferens, T. R. | MacGhee, Richard | Rowlands, James |
| Ffrench, Peter | Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J. | St. Maur, Harold |
| Field, William | MacNeill, John Gordon Swift | Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland) |
| Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees) | Summers, James Woolley | Webb, H. |
| Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel) | Sutton, John E. | Wedgwood, Josiah C. |
| Scanlan, Thomas | Taylor, John W. (Durham) | White, Patrick (Meath, North) |
| Scott, A. M'Callum (Glasgow, Bridgeton) | Tennant, Harold John | Whyte, Alexander F. (Perth) |
| Seely, Col., Right Hon. J. E. B. | Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton) | Williams, J. (Glamorgan) |
| Sherwell, Arthur James | Toulmin, George | Williams, P. (Middlesborough) |
| Shortt, Edward | Trevelyan, Charles Philips | Wilson, Hon. G. G. (Hull, W.) |
| Simon, Sir John Allsebrook | Ure, Rt. Hon. Alexander | Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton) |
| Smith, Albert (Lancs-, Clitheroe) | Verney, Sir Harry | Wood, T. M'Kinnon (Glasgow) |
| Smith, H. B. L. (Northampton) | Walters, John Tudor | Young, W. (Perthshire, E.) |
| Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.) | Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent) | |
| Soares, Ernest J. | Wardle, George J. | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— Mr. Dudley Ward and Mr. Benn. |
| Stanley, Albert (Staffs, N. W.) | Waring, Walter | |
| Strauss, Edward A. (Southwark, West) | Warner, Sir Thomas Courtenay | |
| NOES. | ||
| Archer-Shee, Major M. | Fleming, Valentine | Peel, Captain R. F. (Woodbridge) |
| Ashley, W. W. | Fletcher, John Samuel (Hampstead) | Peel, Hon. W. R. W. (Taunton) |
| Astor, Waldorf | Forster, Henry William | Perkins, Walter F. |
| Baird, J. L. | Foster, Philip Staveley | Peto, Basil Edward |
| Baker, Sir R. L. (Dorset, N.) | Gastrell, Major W. H. | Pole-Carew, Sir R. |
| Balcarres, Lord | Gibbs, G. A. | Pretyman, Ernest George |
| Baldwin, Stanley | Gilmour, Captain J. | Pryce-Jones, Colonel E. |
| Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (City, Lond.) | Goldsmith, Frank | Quilter, William Eley C. |
| Banbury, Sir Frederick George | Gordon, J. | Rawson, Colonel R. H. |
| Baring, Captain Hon. G. V. | Grant, J. A. | Remnant, James Farquharson |
| Barlow, Montague (Salford, South) | Greene, W. R | Rice, Hon. W. F. |
| Barnston, H. | Gretton, John | Rolleston, Sir John |
| Barrie, H. T. (Londonderry, N.) | Guinness, Hon. W. E. | Ronaldshay, Earl of |
| Bathurst, Hon. A. B. (Glouc., E.) | Hall, D. B. (Isle of Wight) | Rothschild, Lionel de |
| Beach, Hon. Michael Hugh Hicks | Hambro, Angus Valdemar | Royds, Edmund |
| Benn, Arthur Shirley (Plymouth) | Hardy, Laurence | Rutherford, Watson (L'pool, W. Derby) |
| Benn, I. H. (Greenwich) | Harris, Henry Percy | Salter, Arthur Clavell |
| Bennett-Goldney, Francis | Helmsley, Viscount | Sanders, Robert A. |
| Bentinck, Lord H. Cavendish | Henderson, Major H. (Berks) | Sanderson, Lancelot |
| Bigland, Alfred | Hillier, Dr. A. P. | Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.) |
| Bird, A. | Hill-Wood, Samuel | Smith, Harold (Warrington) |
| Boscawen, Sackville T. Griffith. | Hohler, G. F. | Spear, John Ward |
| Boyton, J. | Horne, W. E. (Surrey, Guildford) | Stanier, Beville |
| Brassey, H. Leonard Campbell | Hunt, Rowland | Stanley, Hon. G. F. (Preston) |
| Bridgeman, W. Clive | Hunter, Sir C. R. (Bath) | Staveley-Hill, Henry (Staffordshire) |
| Bull, Sir William James | Jardine, E. (Somerset, E.) | Steel-Maitland, A. D. |
| Burgoyne, A. H. | Kebty-Fletcher, J. R. | Stewart, Gershom |
| Burn, Colonel C. R. | Kerr-Smiley, Peter Kerr | Swift, Rigby |
| Butcher, J. G. | Kerry, Earl of | Talbot, Lord E. |
| Carlile, E. Hildred | Knight, Captain E. A. | Terrell, H. (Gloucester) |
| Cassel, Felix | Lawson, Hon. H. (T. H'mts., Mile End) | Thomson, W. Mitchell- (Down, North) |
| Castlereagh, Viscount | Lewisham, Viscount | Touche, George Alexander |
| Cator, John | Locker-Lampson, G. (Salisbury) | Tullibardine, Marquess of |
| Cecil, Lord Hugh (Oxford University) | Lockwood, Rt. Hon. Lt.-Col. A. R. | Walker, Colonel William Hall |
| Chaloner, Colonel R. G. W. | Long, Rt. Hon. Walter | Weigall, Capt. A. G. |
| Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J. A. (Worc'r.) | Mackinder, H J. | Wheler, Granville C. H. |
| Clay, Captain H. H. Spender | Malcolm, Ian | White, Major G. D. (Lancs., Southport) |
| Clive, Percy Archer | Mills, Hon. Charles Thomas | Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.) |
| Clyde, J. Avon | Moore, William | Willoughby, Major Hon. Claude |
| Cooper, Richard Ashmole | Morpeth, Viscount | Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E. R.) |
| Courthope, G. Loyd | Morrison-Bell, Major A. C. (Honiton) | Winterton, Earl |
| Craig, Captain James (Down, E.) | Mount, William Arthur | Wolmer, Viscount |
| Craig, Norman (Kent) | Neville, Reginald J. N. | Wood, Hon. E. F. L. (Ripon) |
| Craik, Sir Henry | Newman, John R. P. | Wood, John (Stalybridge) |
| Crichton-Stuart, Lord Ninian | Newton, Harry Kottingham | Worthington-Evans, L. (Colchester) |
| Croft, H. P. | Nicholson, Wm. G. (Petersfield) | Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart. |
| Dairymple, Viscount | Nield, Herbert | Yate, Col. C. E. (Leics., Melton) |
| Doughty, Sir George | Norton-Griffiths, J. (Wednesbury) | Younger, George |
| Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers. | O'Neill, Hon. A. E. D. (Antrim, Mid) | |
| Eyres-Monsell, B. M. | Orde-Powlett, Hon. W. G. A. | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— Mr. Cave and Mr. Pollock. |
| Fell, Arthur | Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William | |
| Fisher, W. Hayes | Pease, Hebert Pike (Darlington) |
§ Mr. CHURCHILLclaimed "That the Question be now put."
§ Question put, "That the Question be now put."
§ Lord HUGH CECILI rise to a point of Order. [Interruption.]
§ The DEPUTY-CHAIRMANI hope the House will allow the Noble Lord to put his point.
§ Lord HUGH CECILI desire to ask you whether you have accepted the Closure or not. I understand that the Question is, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."
§ The DEPUTY-CHAIRMANThe Question is, "That the Question, which is 'that the Clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill,' be now put."
§ Mr. WATSON RUTHERFORD (seated and wearing his hat)I did not catch that you put the Question, "That the Question be now put." I understood that the Question put was, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill." You have not, so far as I have heard, put the Question, "That the Question be now put."
§ The DEPUTY - CHAIRMANMay I again explain that the Question is, "That the Question be now put," that Question being "That the Clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill."
§ Mr. WATSON RUTHERFORDI am afraid I have not made my point clear. Before you put the Question, "That the
§ Clause stand part of the Bill, you must put the Question, "That the Question be now put."
§ Mr. BUTCHERAm I right in supposing that the Home Secretary moved, "That the Question be now put"? If so, we did not understand that.
§ The DEPUTY-CHAIRMANThe Question is, "That the Question, 'That the Clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill,' be now put."
§ The Committee divided: Ayes, 217; Noes, 153.
1605| Division No. 54.] | AYES. | [3.13 a.m. |
| Abraham, William (Dublin Harbour) | Field, William | Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester) |
| Acland, Francis Dyke | Fiennes, Hon. Eustace Edward | MacGhee, Richard |
| Adamson, William | Fitzgibbon, John | Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J. |
| Addison, Dr. C. | Flavin, Michael Joseph | MacNeill, John Gordon Swift |
| Agar-Robartes, Hon. T. C. R. | Furness, Stephen W. | MacVeagh, Jeremiah |
| Allen, Arthur Acland (Dumbartonshire) | Gelder, Sir William Alfred | M'Curdy, C. A. |
| Armitage, R. | Gill, Alfred Henry | M'Laren, H. D. (Leices.) |
| Baker, Harold T. (Accrington) | Glanville, H. J. | M'Micking, Major Gilbert |
| Barran, Rowland Hirst (Leeds, N.) | Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford | Marshall, Arthur Harold |
| Barry, Redmond John (Tyrone, N.) | Goldstone, Frank | Mason, David M. (Coventry) |
| Barton, William | Greig, Colonel J. W. | Masterman, C. F. G. |
| Beale, William Phipson | Guest, Major Hon. C. H. C. (Pembroke) | Mathias, Richard |
| Bentham, George Jackson | Guest, Hon. Frederick E. (Dorset, E.) | Meagher, Michael |
| Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine | Gulland, John W. | Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.) |
| Black, Arthur W. | Gwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway) | Mond, Sir Alfred Moritz |
| Booth, Frederick Handel | Hackett, J. | Money, L. G. Chiozza |
| Bowerman, Charles W. | Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose) | Montagu, Hon. E. S. |
| Boyle, D. (Mayo, N.) | Harvey, A. G C. (Rochdale) | Mooney, John J. |
| Brace, William | Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, West) | Morgan, George Hay |
| Brady, Patrick Joseph | Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth) | Morrell, Philip |
| Brocklehurst, William B. | Haslam, James (Derbyshire) | Munro, R. |
| Brunner, J. F. L. | Havelock-Allan, Sir Henry | Needham, Christopher T. |
| Burke, E. Haviland. | Haworth, Arthur A. | Neilson, Francis |
| Burns, Rt. Hon. John | Hayden, John Patrick | Nolan, Joseph |
| Carr-Gomm, H. W. | Hayward, Evan | Norman, Sir Henry |
| Cawley, H. T. (Lancs., Heywood) | Helme, Norval Watson | O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) |
| Chancellor, Henry George | Henderson, Arthur (Durham) | O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.) |
| Chapple, Dr. William Allen | Henry, Sir Charles | O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool) |
| Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston S. | Higham, John Sharp | O'Dowd, John |
| Clancy, John Joseph | Hinds, John | O'Grady, James |
| Clough, William | Hobhouse, Rt. Hon. Charles E. H. | O'Keily, Edward P. (Wicklow, W.) |
| Clynes, John R. | Holt, Richard Durning | O'Malley, William |
| Collins, Godfrey P. (Greenock) | Horne, Charles Silvester (Ipswich) | O'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, S.) |
| Condon, Thomas Joseph | Hudson, Walter | O'Shaughnessy, P. J. |
| Corbett, A. Cameron | Hughes, Spencer Leigh | O'Sullivan, Timothy |
| Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. | Illingworth Percy H. | Palmer, Godfrey Mark |
| Craig, Herbert James (Tynemouth) | Isaacs, Sir Rufus Daniel | Parker, James (Halifax) |
| Crawshay-Williams, Eliot | John, Edward Thomas | Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek) |
| Crumley, Patrick | Johnson, William | Pearson, Hon. Weetman H. M. |
| Davies, Ellis William (Eifion) | Jones Edgar R. (Merthyr Tydvil) | Pease, Rt. Hon. Joseph A. (Rotherham) |
| Davies, Timothy (Lincs., Louth) | Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) | Pirie, Duncan V. |
| Dawes, J. A. | Jones, Leif Stratten (Notts, Rushcliffe) | Pointer, Joseph |
| Delany, William | Jones, William (Carnarvonshire) | Pollard, Sir George H. |
| Dillon, John | Jones, W. S. Glyn- (T'w'r H'mts, Stepney) | Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H. |
| Doris, William | Keating, M. | Power, Patrick Joseph |
| Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness) | Kellaway, Frederick George | Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central) |
| Edwards, Allen C. (Glamorgan, E.) | Kilbride, Denis | Priestley, Sir W. E. B. (Bradford, E.) |
| Edwards, Sir Francis (Radnor) | King, J. (Somerset, N.) | Primrose, Hon. Neil James |
| Elibank, Rt. Hon. Master of | Lambert, George (Devon, S. Molten) | Raffan, Peter Wilson |
| Elverston, Harold | Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade) | Raphael, Sir Herbert Henry |
| Esmonde, Dr. John (Tipperary, N.) | Law, Hugh A. | Rea, Walter Russell (Scarborough) |
| Esmonde, Sir Thomas (Wexford, N.) | Lawson, Sir W.(Cumb'rld., Cockerm'th) | Redmond, John E. (Waterford) |
| Essex, Richard Walter | Leach, Charles | Redmond, William Archer (Tyrone, E) |
| Falconer, James | Levy, Sir Maurice | Rendall, Atheistan |
| Farrell, James Patrick | Lewis, John Herbert | Richards, Thomas |
| Fenwick, Charles | Low, Sir Frederick (Norwich) | Richardson, Thomas (Whitehaven) |
| Ferens, T. R. | Lundon, T. | Roberts, Charles H (Lincoln) |
| Ffrench, Peter | Lynch, A. A. | Roberts, George H. (Norwich) |
| Robertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradford) | Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.) | Waring, Walter |
| Robinson, Sidney | Soares, Ernest Joseph | Warner, Sir Thomas Courtenay |
| Roch, Walter F. (Pembroke) | Stanley, Albert (Staffs., N. W.) | Webb, H. |
| Rowlands, James | Strauss, Edward A. (Southwark, West) | Wedgwood, Josiah C. |
| St. Maur (Harold) | Summers, James Woolley | White, Patrick (Meath, North) |
| Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland) | Sutton, John E. | Whyte, A. F. (Perth) |
| Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees) | Taylor, John W. (Durham) | Williams, John (Glamorgan) |
| Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel) | Tennant, Harold John | Williams, P (Middlesurough) |
| Scanlan, Thomas | Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton) | Wilson, Hon. G. G. (Hull, W.) |
| Scott, A. M'Callum (Glasgow, Bridgeton) | Toulmin, George | Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton) |
| Seely, Col., Right Hon. J. E. B. | Trevelyan, Charles Philips | Wood, T. M'Kinnon (Glasgow) |
| Sherwell, Arthur James | Ure, Rt. Hon. Alexander | Young, William (Perth, East) |
| Shortt, Edward | Verney, Sir Harry | |
| Simon, Sir John Allsebrook | Walters, John Tudor | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— Mr. Dudley Ward and Mr. Benn. |
| Smith, Albert (Lancs., Clitheroe) | Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent) | |
| Smith, H. B. Lees (Northampton) | Wardle, George J. | |
| NOES. | ||
| Archer-Shee, Major Martin | Fleming, Valentine | Peel, Capt. R. F. (Woodbridge) |
| Ashley, Wilfrid W. | Fletcher, John Samuel (Hampstead) | Peel, Hon. William R. W. (Taunton) |
| Astor, Waldorf | Foster, Philip Staveley | Perkins, Walter Frank |
| Baird, J. L. | Gastrell, Major W. H. | Peto, Basil Edward |
| Baker, Sir R. L. (Dorset, N.) | Gibbs, George Abraham | Pole-Carew, Sir R. |
| Baldwin, Stanley | Gilmour, Captain J. | Pollock, Ernest Murray |
| Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (City, Lond.) | Goldsmith, Frank | Pretyman, E. G. |
| Banbury, Sir Frederick George | Gordon, I. | Pryce-Jones, Col. E. (Montgom'y B'ghs) |
| Baring, Captain Hon. Guy Victor | Grant, J. A. | Quilter, William Eley C. |
| Barlow, Montogue (Salford, South) | Greene, Walter Raymond | Rawson, Colonel Richard H. |
| Barnston, Harry | Gretton, John | Remnant, James Farquharson |
| Barrie, H. T. (Londonderry, N.) | Guinness, Hon. Walter, Edward | Rice, Hon. Walter Fitz-Uryan |
| Bathurst, Hon. Allen B. (Glouc., E.) | Hall, D. B. (Isle of Wight) | Rolleston, Sir John |
| Beach, Hen. Michael Hugh Hicks | Hambro, Angus Vaidemar | Ronaldshay, Earl of |
| Benn, Arthur Shirley (Plymouth) | Hardy, Laurence (Kent, Ashford) | Rothschild, Lionel de |
| Benn, Ion Hamilton (Greenwich) | Harris, Henry Percy | Royds, Edmund |
| Bennett-Goldney, Francis | Helmsley, Viscount | Rutherford, Watson (L'pool, W. Derby) |
| Bentinck, Lord Henry Cavendish. | Henderson, Major H. (Berkshire) | Salter, Arthur Clavel) |
| Bigland, Alfred | Hillier, Dr. Alfred Peter | Sanders, Robert A. |
| Bird, A. | Hill-Wood, S. (High Peak) | Sanderson, Lancelot |
| Boscawen, Sackville T. Griffith. | Hohler, G. F. | Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.) |
| Boyton, James | Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield) | Smith, Harold (Warrington) |
| Brassey, H. Leonard Campbell | Horne, Wm. E. (Surrey, Guildford) | Spear, John Ward |
| Bridgeman, W. Clive | Hunt, Rowland | Stanier, Beville |
| Bull, Sir William James | Hunter, Sir Charles Roderick (Bath) | Stanley, Hon. G. F. (Preston) |
| Burgoyne, A. H | Jardine, Ernest (Somerset, E.) | Staveley-Hill, Henry |
| Burn, Colonel C. R. | Kebty-Fletcher, J. R. | Steel-Maitland, A. D. |
| Butcher, John George | Kerr-Smiley, Peter Kerr | Stewart, Gershom |
| Carlile, Edward Hildred | Kerry, Earl of | Swift, Rigby |
| Cassel, Felix | Knight, Capt. E. A. | Talbot, Lord Edmund |
| Castlereagh, Viscount | Lawson, Hon. H. (T. H'm'ts, Mile End) | Terrell, Henry (Gloucester) |
| Cator, John | Lewisham, Viscount | Thomson, W. Mitchell (Down, N.) |
| Cave, George | Locker-Lampson, O. (Ramsey) | Touche, George Alexander |
| Cecil, Lord Hugh (Oxford University) | Lockwood, Rt. Hon. Lt.-Col- A. R. | Tullibardine, Marquess of |
| Chaloner, Col. R. G. W. | Long, Rt. Hon. Walter | Walker, Col. William Halt |
| Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J. A. (Worc'r.) | Mackinder, Halford J. | Weigall, Capt. A. G. |
| Clay, Captain H. H. Spender | Malcolm, Ian | Wheler, Granville C. H. |
| Clive, Percy Archer | Mills, Hon. Charles Thomas | White, Major G. D. (Lancs., Southport) |
| Clyde, J. Avon | Moore, William | Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.) |
| Cooper, Richard Ashmole | Morpeth, Viscount | Willoughby, Major Hon. Claude |
| Courthope, George Loyd | Morrison-Bell, Major A. C. (Honiton) | Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E. R.) |
| Craig, Captain James (Down, E.) | Mount, William Arthur | Winterton, Earl |
| Craig, Norman (Kent) | Neville, Reginald J. N. | Wolmer, Viscount |
| Craik, Sir Henry | Newman, John R. P. | Wood, Hon. E. F. L. (Ripon) |
| Crichton-Stuart, Lord Ninian | Newton, Harry Kottingham | Wood, John (Stalybridge) |
| Croft, Henry Page | Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield) | Worthington-Evans, L. |
| Dairymple, Viscount | Nield, Herbert | Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart. |
| Doughty, Sir George | Norton-Griffiths, J. (Wednesbury) | Yate, Col. C. E. |
| Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers. | O'Neill, Hon. A. E. B. (Antrim, Mid) | Younger, George |
| Eyres-Monsell, Bolton M. | Orde-Pewlett, Hon. W. G. A. | |
| Fell, Arthur | Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— Lord Balcarres and Mr. H. W. Forster. |
| Fisher, William Hayes | Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington) |
§ Question put accordingly, "That the Clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill."
§ The Committee proceeded to a Division.
§ Mr. Dudley Ward and Mr. Wedgwood Benn were appointed Tellers for the Ayes, but no Member being willing to act as Teller for the Noes, the Chairman declared the Ayes had it.
1606Mr. BALFOURI propose now to make another appeal to the Government based on a more recent statement of the Prime Minister—a statement made across the floor of the House at 4 o'clock. I asked the Prime Minister in the first place whether he thought of getting the Bill through to-night. He scouted the idea of any such policy, but went on to explain 1607 that if the House sat late this evening it was not to be anything in the nature of an all-night sitting or a prolonged sitting. I am not going to discuss the matter, I am only going to state that the Prime Minister distinctly gave us to understand that he did not contemplate that course and I call upon the Government to carry out the pledge that he gave. "I move that the Chairman do report Progress and ask leave to sit again."
§ Mr. CHURCHILLI was present to-day in the House when the Prime Minister answered the right hon. Gentleman after question time on this subject and it is perfectly true that the Prime Minister then was quite clear that we were not to get the Bill—by which he meant the Bill and the new clauses—to-night. The Government could not expect and did not intend to ask the House to endeavour to pass the Bill and the new clauses to-night. The Prime Minister hoped that it would not be necessary that we should sit very late. We have all hoped so too. But the Government have made no change whatever in the plan of time in which they have been working. They have not only made no change, between 4 o'clock yesterday afternoon and the moment we have now reached, but they have made no change in the proposals which we have put before Parliament since the beginning of the Session. We stated at the very beginning of the Session that we would allocate our time to last year's Budget six-and-a-half days. Six-and-a-half days we will give. No less on any account; no more if we can avoid it. I very much regret indeed that hon. Gentlemen opposite should find that course disagreeable to them and should take it as an injustice. But if they would study the conditions of Parliamentary business they will see that nothing but absolute necessity—unless our business is to get into a tangle and this Budget is to hang over until next year and tread upon the toes of the next Budget, and unless great interests, great purposes which we have in hand are to be prejudiced—that we should use every exertion and make every sacrifice to get this Revenue Bill within the period which we originally fixed and which we frankly and plainly announced to the House weeks ago. Really hon. Gentlemen opposite ought not to allow their natural feelings of partisanship to carry them beyond the limits of Parliamentary comfort. There is good reason—
§ Lord HUGH CECILThere is no good reason for breaking a Parliamentary undertaking. [Interruption.]
§ The DEPUTY-CHAIRMANI would ask the Noble Lord to wait his opportunity.
§ Mr. CHURCHILLI am so much accustomed to the controversial methods of the Noble Lord who deals always in taunts and in insults—[Interruption.]
§ The DEPUTY-CHAIRMANI would invite hon. Members on both sides and at the bar to allow a proper discussion of the Motion.
§ Mr. CHURCHILLI say I am quite sufficiently acquainted—[Interruption.]
§ The DEPUTY-CHAIRMANI hope hon. Members will be good enough to allow the Chair to control the Debate—it cannot be done without the consent of both sides—and permit the right hon. Gentleman to proceed.
§ Mr. CHURCHILLWe on this side allowed the right hon. Gentleman—
§ Earl WINTERTONHe did not insult you.
§ Mr. CHURCHILLThere is nothing unparliamentary in the language which I used. If there was the Noble Lord would be the first person to call attention to it. I was saying that the Noble Lord (Lord Hugh Cecil), who always deals in insults—[Interruption.]
§ The DEPUTY-CHAIRMANI would repeat my request to the House to allow the discussion to proceed and I would appeal to right hon. Gentlemen and hon. Members who take part in the discussion to devote themselves entirely to the business question whether the Committee should report progress or not. It is not to the credit of the House that taunts should be flung across the House, and I would call upon the Noble Lord to wait his turn to reply to the arguments.
§ Mr. CHURCHILLI shall strictly respect your wishes, Sir. I do not desire to make any reply to the accusations which the Noble Lord interjected into my remarks that we had broken our promise. I was making no reply to that, but I put it to hon. Gentlemen opposite that they will realise it was a remark to which a reply was fully justified. I wish to say this on the merits of the policy which we are now pursuing, and which we resolved to 1609 pursue if this Bill had been discussed in the ordinary course before Christmas—[Opposition cries of "Why was it not discussed"]. Really hon. Gentlemen are doing themselves no credit by these proceedings. If this Bill had been discussed in the ordinary course before Christmas, I think that three full weeks of Parliamentary time would have been considered quite a fair allowance for it, having regard to the exceptional circumstances of last year. We gave five days in the last Parliament and six-and-a-half days in this—an equivalent of three full weeks of Parliamentary time.
§ Mr. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAINThis Bill was never introduced.
§ Mr. CHURCHILLBut what is this Bill? [Opposition cries of "What is it?"] It is a Bill of concessions.
§ The DEPUTY-CHAIRMANThe question before the House is not as to the nature of the Bill. [Interruption.] Hon. Members do not make it easy for any hon. Member to speak to the Question. I hope hon. Members will assist the Chair.
§ Mr. CHURCHILLI should like nothing better than to be able to accede to the demands which have been made by the right hon. Gentleman who leads the Opposition that we should now report progress and terminate our labours now. But, having regard to the great mass of new clauses which have been put down, and which raise again the whole of the controversies of the 1909 Budget, it is imperative that we should make substantial progress in our task unless we are to sacrifice and prejudice the interests of the main measures of this Session. If we did that we should be failing absolutely in our duty. It is with the greatest regret of causing irritation or anger to hon. Gentlemen opposite, but I must ask the House to address itself for a longer period to the discussion of this Bill in order that we may at any rate get to the end of the Bill before we separate.
Mr. BALFOURAllow me to ask one question. Does the right hon. Gentleman deny the interpretation I and my friends put upon the statement of the Prime Minister, made at four o'clock, that he did not contemplate a sitting which was to extend to this time?
§ Mr. CHURCHILLThe Prime Minister could not have foreseen the resistance with which our measure has been met. 1610 The Government have certainly never diverged in the least from their intention to dispose of this measure within the limits of the time we have given.
§ Mr. STEEL-MAITLANDI only want to ask the right hon. Gentleman one question. He says, he would, or the Leader of the Government would have given this House three weeks in which to discuss this measure bad it come on last autumn. How many days does he consider amount to three weeks' Parliamentary time. If the right hon. Gentleman says that he cannot get through the business in decent time before the 31st March, why on earth should he not be able to give us next Monday for this measure. From what we have heard from the right hon. Gentleman [Interruption].
§ The DEPUTY-CHAIRMANI wish hon. Gentlemen below the Gangway would allow the hon. Gentleman to proceed. I do think the Committee would do well to leave matters of order to the Chair. So long as I am to be in this position I shall do my best, wherever disorderly interruptions come from, to restrain them.
§ Mr. JOHN WARDIt has no effect on one side of the House. [Cries of "Name."]
§ The DEPUTY-CHAIRMANThat is a matter for the Chair. If hon. Members would address the Chair, which is the custom and rule of the House, Members would conduce to the better conduct of business.
§ Mr. STEEL-MAITLANDMy first words on rising were to address you personally. May I suggest to the right hon. Gentleman that if business has got into a tangle it has nothing to do with the party on this side of the House. The whole responsibility lies with the leaders of that side of the House and with the Government Bench. If the right hon. Gentleman will consult the time that has been taken for Finance Bills in past years, he will find in the first place that there has never been any closure since last year on measures of this kind. Last year there may have been something to be said for it because in the previous year this House had passed the Finance Bill. This year there is no justification for such a course. The amount of time allotted to this Bill is grossly inadequate in comparison with the time taken for Finance Bills in previous years when they were non-controversial. We cannot understand why the right hon. 1611 Gentleman should not give us the time allotted to the joint debate on matters of Army and Navy expenditure.
§ Mr. CHURCHILLI explained why in my speech.
§ Mr. STEEL-MAITLANDThe right hon. Gentleman gave a reason which did not appeal to anyone on this side of the House. All I could understand was that he had given a promise to some Members of his own side of the House. I do not know whether he attaches the value to a promise given to his own side which he does not appear to attach to a promise given to this side, but if he wished to deal fairly by the House as a whole, he would settle matters with his own Friends and pursue the obligations that had been made by the Prime Minister to the Opposition. There is no reason why he should not give his own Friends opportunity to discuss that subject ad nauseam afterwards. There is no need to do it before the 31st of March. We could have that extra day for discussing clauses of great complexity, which cannot be discussed properly at this hour of the morning. I would appeal to the right hon. Gentleman once again. I hardly think he himself has been the cause of that cool and collected spirit which he suggested earlier in the evening was the reason why the discussion should be continued to this late hour.
§ Lord HUGH CECILIt is very difficult at this hour of the night to discuss a Motion of this kind. The right hon. Gentleman I think scarcely appreciates the accusation made against him and the Government. The intentions of the Prime Minister are not of the least matter. What does matter is what he said. He said he did not contemplate a late sitting. It is in accordance with the immemorial traditions of this House that a pledge given by the Leader of one party to the other is not broken. No one can maintain that this—it is now nearly four o'clock—is not an unduly late sitting. It is not my business to consider whether Government business is in a difficult position or not. The most ordinary obligation of morality and honour requires that the promise should be kept. It is open to a Government as to any other person to break their pledged word, but what is not open to them is to escape the imputation of dishonour which attaches to promise-breaking. Such a proceeding, if it involved pecuniary matters, 1612 would lead them to prison. Such a proceeding, if done in the ordinary course of private life and intercourse, would drive them from the society of gentlemen.
§ Mr. CHURCHILLI rise to Order. I wish to ask you, Mr. Whitley, whether, if the Noble Lord pursues this line of argument, a reply will be permitted?
§ The DEPUTY-CHAIRMANI was listening to the Noble Lord, and I was on the point of rising to ask him to address himself particularly to the Question, in the same manner as I have done other speakers.
§ Lord HUGH CECILThe only purpose of my argument is to show we ought to report progress because the Government have promised that we should. As far as the Home Secretary's desire to reply is concerned I do not in the least complain of any reply he would endeavour to make. I do not in the least complain of attacks, nor do I desire to be spared them. The point at present is whether the Government are not bound in honour to consent to this Motion. I warn them they will put themselves in a very grave position if they refuse. I think it is a grave position to depart from the traditions of this House. Beyond all doubt such a thing has never happened in Parliamentary experience that an assurance given by the Leader of the House across the floor of the House has been broken.
§ 4.0 A.M.
§ Mr. WATSON RUTHERFORDI can give a very much more important reason than the promise of the Prime Minister why this Clause should be postponed. Personally I do not attach the slightest importance to the promise of the Prime Minister, and I do not think much of either the honour or dishonour of it. The reason I would give goes to the merits of the case. The next clause is that extremely important clause which takes away from the municipalities the half of the Land Taxes which had been promised to them. I submit that this point, at all events should be discussed at a reasonable hour and under reasonable conditions. You yourself, Mr. Whitley, will remember that when the Finance Act was passed that particular point as to whether the local authorities should be deprived of the benefit of the taxation of site values was discussed at very great length, and occupied a great deal of time and attention, and eventually the Government, in order to try 1613 to meet the municipalities in some way, put in this particular Clause, which is now sought to be reversed and repealed. This is therefore a proper time and stage to report progress, and to ask leave to sit again in order that we may come fresh at an appropriate hour to what is, after all, the main point of the whole Bill. It would not be fair to the Government or the municipalities to go further with the Bill, and to get involved in this Clause when we could not possibly do anything like justice to it.
§ Colonel GRIFFITH-BOSCAWENI do appeal to right hon. Gentlemen opposite now that we are at so important a Clause in the Bill to meet our-claim. It is a matter on which there is a great difference of opinion on both sides of the House. Members on that side of the House take as strong a view as we do on the taking away of the Land Taxes from the local authorities. Is it fair to ask us to discuss that question at four o'clock in the morning? Should we not take into consideration the great difference of opinion and also the great interest taken in that question by the local authorities all over the country? It is most unjust to ask us to pass this important measure at such a time in the morning. The right hon. Gentleman has told us that the time was given to another Bill, but I ask was it intended last November, when the promise was made, that the Government would take away this share of the local authorities in these taxes? This is a most contentious part of the Bill, and it is only fair it should be postponed. What reason is given for pressing it on? It is said it is important to get this Bill and other Bills through before the 31st March. I venture to say there is no necessity whatever for that. The Budget last year was not through before the end of April. What is the reason for getting this Bill through before the end of March. The only reason is that the right hon. Gentleman wants to proceed with the Parliament Bill, and in order that that measure may be rushed the flimsy excuse is put forward that there is not enough time to get through the financial business. If he would devote the whole of the time between now and the 31st March to finance, there would be plenty of time to get through the whole of the financial business and also give us time to consider this measure. It is neither fair to us nor to the constituencies, nor to Members on that 1614 side of the House to ask us to go on with this subject at this hour.
Mr. STANLEY WILSONI wish to say a few words in support of this Motion, and to endeavour to persuade the Government to see the error of their ways. Feelings have been running high both on the other side of the House and on this side, but I think the time has now come when the Government might listen to the appeal we now make to them. We got on very well for part of the evening until a certain moment. That moment was when the Home Secretary took charge. I would like to remind the hon. Gentleman that this is his first endeavour to lead the House of Commons. I cannot congratulate him on his conciliatory methods. I do not think this is an auspicious beginning or that it speaks well for what may take place in the future. What has been his first proceeding this evening? To throw over the Prime Minister—his own leader, who this afternoon pledged himself to this House that he would not ask us to sit unduly late. I cannot understand why the Government are in this great hurry. Surely there is plenty of time. They have already taken away private Member's time up to Easter and I have not the slightest doubt that after Easter they will take away all private Member's time again. Only a year ago, as an hon. Friend of mine has just said, the Government did not consider that finance was a matter of such vital importance as they appear to do this evening. When the Government began this Debate I do not think they ever for a moment expected they would get nine clauses, but they got them and we are now come to the tenth clause, the most important clause of the whole lot. If the Prime Minister had been present I have not the slightest doubt that in view of the vast importance of the subject which the Home Secretary is asking us to debate he would have allowed us a little relief. After all, feelings have run high, but I should like to appeal to the Home Secretary now on behalf of his own unfortunate supporters on the Front Bench. There is the Attorney-General. I do not know what has become of the Solicitor-General. He has made the best fight of the whole of the Government on the Front Bench, and I am quite sure that we ought to congratulate him on his fight. He has gone to bed; he has left the Attorney-General alone entirely. I think I see also the Financial-Secretary. 1615 I am sure he is quite ready to retire if the Home Secretary will allow him to do so. We are going to have plenty of all-night sittings later on. When you get your Parliament Bill into Committee there will be night after night.
§ Mr. ROBERT HARCOURT rose in his place, and claimed to move, "That the Question be now put"; but the Deputy-Chairman withheld his assent, and declined then to put that Question.
§ The DEPUTY-CHAIRMANI have allowed the hon. Member a good deal of latitude already.
Mr. STANLEY WILSONI thought the reasons I was bringing forward were very good why we should now report Progress and go home on this particular evening in view of the sittings in the future. If you rule me out of order on that point I will not continue. Now I should like to ask the right hon. Gentleman how far to-night he really intends to go. I do not think he has any idea. As far as he can possibly get, I suppose. I will ask him definitely, does he intend to finish the Bill to-night? I should like a definite answer, because in view of the importance of this Clause 10 I think we ought to know at once. It is a subject of vital importance to every local authority in the country. I will guarantee that every Member in this
§ House, or practically every Member, has received letters from some* local authority in his Constituency asking them to see that this Clause is properly debated in this House. They are new proposals such as the Government has not contemplated before. My hon. Friend reminds me that there are 300 Members who have already gone to bed, and many of those would have wished to have spoken on an important Clause like this. I protest that the Government have no right to take such a vital Clause on such a vital matter in the middle of the night or in the early hours of the morning. This Clause cannot be got through under four or five hours Debate unless it is done by means of the most stringent closure. I should like to appeal again. Hon. Members do not want to sit up late, except the hon. Member for New-castle-under-Lyme, who has come down dressed suitably for the occasion. I am quite sure that with the exception of that hon. Gentleman, all hon. Gentlemen, if they speak their true feelings, will support this Motion.
§ Question put, "That the Question be now put."
§ The Committee divided: Ayes, 215; Noes, 153.
1619| Division No. 55.] | AYES. | [4.15 a.m. |
| Abraham, William (Dublin Harbour) | Corbett, A. Cameron | Goldstone, Frank |
| Acland, Francis Dyke | Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. | Greig, Colonel J. W. |
| Adamson, William | Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth) | Guest, Major Hon. C. H. C. (Pembroke) |
| Addison, Dr. C. | Crawshay-Williams, Eliot | Guest, Hon. Frederick E. (Dorset, E.) |
| Allen, Arthur Acland (Dumbartonshire) | Crumley, Patrick | Gulland, John W. |
| Armitage, R. | Davies, E. William (Eifion) | Gwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway) |
| Baker, H. T. (Accrington) | Davies, Timothy (Lincs., Louth) | Hackett, J. |
| Barran, Rowland Hirst (Leeds, N.) | Dawes, J. A. | Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose) |
| Barry, Redmond John (Tyrone, N.) | Delany, William | Harvey, A. G. C (Rochdale) |
| Barton, William | Dillon, John | Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, W.) |
| Beale, W. P. | Doris, W. | Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth) |
| Bentham, G. J. | Duffy, William J. | Havelock-Allan, Sir Henry |
| Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine | Duncan, C (Barrow-in-Furness) | Haworth, Arthur A. |
| Black, Arthur W. | Edwards, Sir Francis (Randnor) | Hayden, John Patrick |
| Booth, Frederick Handel | Elibank, Rt. Hon. Master of | Hayward, Evan |
| Bowerman, C. W. | Elverston, H. | Helme, Norval Watson |
| Boyle, D. (Mayo, N.) | Esmonde, Dr. John (Tipperary, N.) | Henderson, Arthur (Durham) |
| Brace, William | Esmonde, Sir Thomas (Wexford, N.) | Henry, Sir Charles S. |
| Brady, P. J. | Essex, Richard Walter | Higham, John Sharp |
| Brocklehurst, W. B. | Falconer, J. | Hinds, John |
| Brunner, J. F. L. | Farrell, James Patrick | Hobhouse, Rt. Hon. Charles E. H. |
| Burke, E. Haviland. | Fenwick, Charles | Holt, Richard Durning |
| Burns, Rt. Hon. John | Ferens, T. R. | Home, C Silvester (Ipswich) |
| Carr-Gomm, H. W. | Ffrench, Peter | Hudson, Walter |
| Cawley, Harold T. (Heywood) | Field, William | Hughes, S. L |
| Chancellor, H. G. | Fiennes, Hon. Eustace Edward | Illingworth, Percy H. |
| Chapple, Dr. W. A. | Fitzgibbon, John | Isaacs, Sir Rufus Daniel |
| Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston S. | Flavin, Michael Joseph | John, Edward Thomas |
| Clancy, John Joseph | Furness, Stephen | Johnson, W. |
| Clough, William | Gelder, Sir W. A. | Jones, Edgar (Merthyr Tydvil) |
| Clynes, J. R. | Gill, A. H. | Jones, H. Haydn (Merioneth) |
| Collins, G. P. (Greenock) | Granville, H. J. | Jones, Leif Stratten (Notts, Rushcliffe) |
| Condon, Thomas Joseph | Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford | Jones, William (Carnarvonshire) |
| Jones, W. S. Glyn- (T. H'mts, Stepney) | Nolan, Joseph | St. Maur, Harold |
| Keating, M. | Norman, Sir Henry | Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland) |
| Kellaway, Frederick George | O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) | Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees) |
| Kilbride, Denis | O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.) | Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel) |
| King, J. (Somerset, N.) | O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool) | Scanlan, Thomas |
| Lambert, George (Devon, S. Molton) | O'Dowd, John | Scott, A. M'Callum (Glasgow, Bridgeton) |
| Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade) | O'Grady, James | Seely, Col., Right Hon. J. E. B. |
| Law, Hugh A. | O'Kelly, Edward P. (Wicklow, W.) | Sherwell, Arthur James |
| Lawson, Sir W.(Cumb'rld., Cockerm'th) | O'Malley, William | Simon, Sir John Allsebrook |
| Leach, Charles | O'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, S.) | Smith, Albert (Lancs., Clitheroe) |
| Levy, Sir Maurice | O'Shaughnessy, P. J. | Smith, H. B. L. (Northampton) |
| Lewis, John Herbert | O'Sullivan, Timothy | Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.) |
| Low, Sir F. (Norwich) | Palmer, Godfrey M. | Soares, Ernest J. |
| Lundon, T. | Parker, James (Halifax) | Stanley, Albert (Staffs, N. W.) |
| Lynch, A. A. | Pearce, Robert (Staffs., Leek) | Strauss, Edward A. (Southward, West) |
| Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester) | Pearson, Weetman H. M. | Summers, James Woolley |
| MacGhee, Richard | Pease, Rt. Hon. Joseph A. (Rotherham) | Sutton, John E |
| Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J. | Pirie, Duncan V. | Taylor, John W. (Durham) |
| MacNeill, John Gordon Swift | Pointer, Joseph | Tennant, Harold John |
| MacVeagh, Jeremiah | Pollard, Sir George H. | Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton) |
| M'Curdy, C. A. | Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H. | Toulmin, George |
| M'Laren, H. D. (Leics., Bosworth) | Power, Patrick Joseph | Trevelyan, Charles Philips |
| M'Micking, Major Gilbert | Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central) | Ure, Rt. Hon. Alexander |
| Marshall, Arthur Harold | Priestley, Sir W. E. B. (Bradford, E.) | Verney, Sir Harry |
| Mason, David M. (Coventry) | Primrose, Hon. Nell James | Walters, John Tudor |
| Masterman, C. F. G. | Raffan, Peter Wilson | Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent) |
| Mathias, Richard | Raphael, Sir Herbert H. | Webb, H. |
| Meagher, Michael | Rea, Walter Russell (Scarborough) | Wedgwood, Josiah C. |
| Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.) | Redmond, John E. (Waterford) | White, Patrick (Meath, North) |
| Mond, Sir Alfred M. | Redmond, William Archer (Tyrone, E.) | Whyte, Alexander F. (Perth) |
| Money, L. G. Chiozza | Rendall, Atheistan | Williams, J. (Glamorgan) |
| Montagu, Hon. E. S. | Richards, Thomas | Williams, P. (Middlesborough) |
| Mooney, J. J. | Richardson, Thomas (Whitehaven) | Wilson, Hon. G. G. (Hull, W.) |
| Morgan, George Hay | Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln) | Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton) |
| Morrell, Philip | Roberts, G. H. (Norwich) | Wood, T. M'Kinnon (Glasgow) |
| Munro, R. | Robertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradford) | Young, W. (Perthshire, E.) |
| Murray, Captain Hon. A. C. | Robinson, Sydney | |
| Needham, Christopher T. | Roch, Walter F. (Pembroke) | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— Mr. Dudley Ward and Mr. Benn. |
| Neilson, Francis | Rowlands, James | |
| NOES. | ||
| Archer-Shee, Major M. | Craig, Norman (Kent) | Long, Rt. Hon. Walter |
| Ashley, W. W. | Craik, Sir Henry | Mackinder, H J. |
| Astor, Waldorf | Crichton-Stuart, Lord Ninian | Malcolm, Ian |
| Baird, J. L. | Croft, H. P. | Mills, Hon. Charles Thomas |
| Baker, Sir R. L. (Dorset, N.) | Dairymple, Viscount | Moore, William |
| Balcarres, Lord | Doughty, Sir George | Morpeth, Viscount |
| Baldwin, Stanley | Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers. | Morrison-Bell, Major A. C. (Honiton) |
| Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (City, Lond.) | Eyres-Monsell, B. M. | Mount, William Arthur |
| Banbury, Sir Frederick George | Fisher, W. Hayes | Neville, Reginald J. N. |
| Baring, Captain Hon. G. V. | Fleming, Valentine | Newman, John R. P. |
| Barlow, Montague (Salford, South) | Fletcher, John Samuel (Hampstead) | Newton, Harry Kottingham |
| Barnston, H. | Foster, Philip Staveley | Nicholson, Wm. G. (Petersfield) |
| Barrie, H. T. (Londonderry, N.) | Gastrell, Major W. H. | Nield, Herbert |
| Bathurst, Hon. A. B. (Glouc., E.) | Gibbs, G. A. | Norton-Griffiths, J. (Wednesbury) |
| Beach, Hon. Michael Hugh Hicks | Gilmour, Captain J. | O'Neill, Hon. A. E. B. (Antrim, Mid) |
| Benn, Arthur Shirley (Plymouth) | Goldsmith, Frank | Orde-Powlett, Hon. W. G. A. |
| Benn, I. H. (Greenwich) | Gordon, J. | Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William |
| Bennett-Goldney, Francis | Grant, J. A. | Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington) |
| Bentinck, Lord H. Cavendish | Greene, W. R. | Peel, Captain R. F. (Woodbridge) |
| Bigland, Alfred | Gretton, John | Peel, Hon. W. R. W. (Taunton) |
| Bird, A. | Guinness, Hon. W. E. | Perkins, Walter F. |
| Boscawen, Sackville T. Griffith. | Hall, D. B. (Isle of Wight) | Peto, Basil Edward |
| Boyton, J. | Hambro, Angus Valdemar | Pole-Carew, Sir R. |
| Brassey, H. Leonard Campbell | Hardy, Laurence | Pollock, Ernest Murray |
| Bridgeman, W. Clive | Harris, Henry Percy | Pretyman, E. G. |
| Bull, Sir William James | Helmsley, Viscount | Pryce-Jones, Colonel E. |
| Burgoyne, A. H. | Henderson, Major H. (Abingdon) | Quilter, William Eley C. |
| Burn, Colonel C. R. | Hillier, Dr. A. P. | Rawson, Colonel R. H. |
| Butcher, J. G. | Hill-Wood, Samuel | Remnant, James Farquharson |
| Carlile, E. Hildred | Hohler, G. F. | Rice, Hon. W. F. |
| Cassel, Felix | Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield) | Rolleston, Sir John |
| Castlereagh, Viscount | Home, W. E. (Surrey, Guildford) | Ronaldshay, Earl of |
| Cator, John | Hunt, Rowland | Rothschild, Lionel de |
| Cave, George | Hunter, Sir C. R. (Bath) | Royds, Edmund |
| Cecil, Lord Hugh (Oxford University) | Jardine, E. (Somerset, E.) | Rutherford, Watson (L'pool, W. Derby) |
| Chaloner, Colonel R. G. W. | Kebty-Fletcher, J. R. | Salter, Arthur Clavell |
| Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J. A. (Worc'r.) | Kerr-Smiley, Peter Kerr | Sanders, Robert A. |
| Clay, Captain H. H. Spender | Kerry, Earl of | Sanderson, Lancelot |
| Clive, Percy Archer | Knight, Captain E. A. | Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.) |
| Clyde, J. Avon | Lawson, Hon. H. (T. H'mts., Mile End) | Smith, Harold (Warrington) |
| Cooper, Richard Ashmole | Lewisham, Viscount | Spear, John Ward |
| Courthope, G. Loyd | Locker-Lampson, O. (Ramsey) | Stanier, Beville |
| Craig, Captain James (Down, E.) | Lockwood, Rt. Hon. Lt.-Col. A. R. | Stanley, Hon. G. F. (Preston) |
| Staveley-Hill, Henry (Staffordshire) | Walker, Colonel William Hall | Wood, Hon. E. F. L. (Ripon) |
| Steel-Maitland, A. D. | Weigall, Capt. A. G. | Wood, John (Stalybridge) |
| Stewart, Gershom | Wheler, Granville C. H. | Worthington-Evans, L. (Colchester) |
| Swift, Rigby | White, Major G. D. (Lancs., Southport) | Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. S. Stuart. |
| Talbot, Lord E. | Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.) | Yate, Col. C. E. (Leics., Melton) |
| Terrell, H. (Gloucester) | Willoughby, Major Hon. Claude | Younger, George |
| Thomson, W. Mitchell- (Down, North) | Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E. R.) | |
| Touche, George Alexander | Winterton, Earl | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— Mr. Forster and Lord E. Talbot. |
| Tullibardine, Marquess of | Wolmer, Viscount |
§ Question put accordingly, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again."
1620§ The Committee divided: Ayes, 153; Noes, 214.
1621| Division No. 56.] | AYES. | [4.20 a.m. |
| Archer-Shoe, Major M. | Fisher, William Hayes | Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington) |
| Ashley, Wilfrid W. | Fleming, Valentine | Peel, Capt. R. F. (Woodbridge) |
| Astor, Waldorf | Fletcher, J. S. | Peel, Hon. Wm. R. W. (Taunton) |
| Baird, J. L. | Foster, Philip Staveley | Perkins, Walter Frank |
| Baker, Sir R. L. (Dorset, N.) | Gastrell, Major W. Houghton | Peto, Basil Edward |
| Balcarres, Lord | Gibbs, George Abraham | Pole-Carew, Sir R. |
| Baldwin, Stanley | Gilmour, Captain John | Pollock, Ernest Murray |
| Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (City, Lend.) | Goldsmith, Frank | Pretyman, Ernest George |
| Banbury, Sir Frederick George | Gordon, John | Pryce-Jones, Col. E. |
| Baring, Capt. Hon. Guy Victor | Grant, James Augustus | Quilter, William Eley C. |
| Barlow, Montague (Salford, South) | Greene, Walter Raymond | Rawson, Col. Richard H. |
| Barnston, Harry | Gretton, John | Remnant, James Farquharson |
| Barrie, H. T. (Londonderry, N.) | Guinness, Hon. Walter Edward | Rice, Hon Walter Fitz-Uryan |
| Bathurst, Hon. Allen B. (Glouc. E.) | Hall, D. B. (Isle of Wight) | Rolleston, Sir John |
| Beach, Hon. Michael Hugh Hicks | Hambro, Angus Vaidemar | Ronaldshay, Earl of |
| Benn, Arthur Shirley (Plymouth) | Hardy, Laurence (Kent, Ashford) | Rothschild, Lionel de |
| Bonn, Ion Hamilton (Greenwich) | Harris, Henry Percy | Royds, Edmund |
| Bennett-Goldney, Francis | Helmsley, Viscount | Rutherford, Watson (L'pool, W. Derby) |
| Bentinck, Lord Henry Cavendish | Henderson, Major H. (Berks., Abingdon) | Salter, Arthur Clavell |
| Bigland, Alfred | Hillier, Dr. Alfred Peter | Sanders, Robert Arthur |
| Bird, Alfred | Hill-Wood, Samuel | Sanderson, Lancelot |
| Boscawen, Sackville T. Griffith | Hohler, Gerald Fitzroy | Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.) |
| Boyton, James | Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield) | Smith, Harold (Warrington) |
| Brassey, H. Leonard Campbell | Horne, Wm. E. (Surrey, Guildford) | Spear, John Ward |
| Bridgeman, William Clive | Hunt, Rowland | Stanier, Beville |
| Bull, Sir William James | Hunter Sir Charles Rodk. (Bath) | Stanley, Hon. G. F. (Preston) |
| Burgoyne, Alan Hughes | Jardine, Ernest (Somerset, East) | Staveley-Hill, Henry (Staffordshire) |
| Burn, Colonel C. R. | Kebty-Fletcher, J. R | Steel-Maitland, A. D. |
| Butcher, John George (York) | Kerr-Smiley, Peter Kerr | Stewart, Gershom |
| Carlile, Edward Hildred | Kerry, Earl of | Swift, Rigby |
| Cassel, Felix | Knight, Captain E. A. | Terrell, Henry (Gloucester) |
| Castlereagh, Viscount | Lawson, Hon. H. (T. H'm'ts., Mile End) | Thomson, W. Mitchell- (Down, North) |
| Cator, John | Lewisham, Viscount | Touche, George Alexander |
| Cave, George | Locker-Lampson, O. (Ramsey) | Tullibardine, Marquees of |
| Cecil, Lord Hugh (Oxford Univ.) | Lockwood, Rt. Hon. Lt.-Col. A. R. | Walker, Col. William Hall |
| Chaloner, Col. R. G. W. | Long, Rt. Hon. Walter | Weigall, Capt. A. G. |
| Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J. A. (Worc'r.) | Mackinder, Halford J. | Wheler, Granville C. H. |
| Clay, Captain H. H. Spender | Malcolm, Ian | White, Major G. D. (Lancs., Southport) |
| Clive, Percy A. | Mills, Hon. Charles T. | Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.) |
| Clyde, James Avon | Moore, William | Willoughby, Major Hon. Claude |
| Cooper, Richard Ashmole | Morpeth, Viscount | Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E. R.) |
| Courthope, George Loyd | Morrison-Bell, Major A. C. (Honiton) | Winterton, Earl |
| Craig, Captain James (Down, E.) | Mount, William Arthur | Wolmer, Viscount |
| Craig, Norman (Kent, Thanet) | Neville, Reginald J. N. | Wood, Hen. E. F. L. (Yorks, Ripen) |
| Craik, Sir Henry | Newman, John R. P. | Wood, John (Stalybridge) |
| Crichton-Stuart, Lord Ninian | Newton, Harry Kettingham | Worthington-Evans, L. (Colchester) |
| Croft, Henry Page | Nicholson, Wm. G. (Petersfield) | Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart. |
| Dairymple, Viscount | Nield, Herbert | Yate, Col. C. E. (Leics., Melton) |
| Doughty, Sir George | Norton-Griffiths, J. (Wednesbury) | Younger, George |
| Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers. | O'Neill, Hon. A. E. B. (Antrim, Mid) | |
| Eyres-Monsell, B. M. | Orde-Powlett, Hon. W. G. A. | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— Lord E. Talbot and Mr. H. W. Forster. |
| Fell, Arthur | Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William | |
| NOES. | ||
| Abraham, William (Dublin Harbour) | Bentham, George Jackson | Burns, Rt. Hon. John |
| Acland, Francis Dyke | Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine | Carr-Gomm, H. W. |
| Adamson, William | Black, Arthur W. | Cawley, H. T. (Lancs., Heywood) |
| Addison, Dr. Christopher | Booth, Frederick Handel | Chancellor, Henry George |
| Allen, Arthur A. (Dumbarton) | Bowerman, Charles W. | Chapple, Dr. W. A. |
| Armitage, Robert | Boyle, Daniel (Mayo, North) | Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston S. |
| Baker, Harold T. (Accrington) | Brace, William | Clancy, John Joseph |
| Barran, Rowland Hirst (Leeds, N.) | Brady, Patrick Joseph | Clough, William |
| Barry, Redmond J. (Tyrone, N.) | Brocklehurst, William B. | Collins, Godfrey P. (Greenock) |
| Barton, William | Brunner, John F. L. | Condon, Thomas Joseph |
| Beale, William Phipson | Burke, E. Haviland. | Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow) |
| Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. | Kellaway, Frederick George | Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central) |
| Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth) | Kilbride, Denis | Priestley, Sir W. E. B. (Bradford, E.) |
| Crawshay-Williams, Eliot | King, Joseph (Somerset, North) | Primrose, Hon. Nell James |
| Crumley, Patrick | Lambert, George (Devon, S. Molton) | Raffin, Peter Wilson |
| Davies, Ellis William (Eifion) | Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade) | Raphael, Sir Herbert Henry |
| Davies, Timotry (Lines, Louth) | Law, Hugh A (Donegal, W.) | Rea, Waiter Russell (Scarborough) |
| Dawes, James Arthur | Lawson, Sir W.(Cumb'rld., Cockerm'th) | Redmond, John E. (Waterford) |
| Delany, William | Leach, Charles | Redmond, William Archer (Tyrone, E.) |
| Dillon, John | Levy, Sir Maurice | Rendall, Atheistan |
| Doris, William | Lewis, John Herbert | Richards, Thomas |
| Duffy, William J. | Low, Sir Frederick (Norwich) | Richardson, Thomas (Whitehaven) |
| Duncan, C. (Barrow-In-Funess) | Lundon, Thomas | Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln) |
| Edwards, Allen C. (Glamorgan, E.) | Lynch, Arthur Alfred | Roberts, George H. (Norwich) |
| Edwards, Sir Francis (Radnor) | Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester) | Robertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradford) |
| Elibank, Rt. Hon. Master of | MacGhee, Richard | Robinson, Sidney |
| Elverston, Harold | Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J. | Roch, Walter F. (Pembroke) |
| Esmonds, Dr. John (Tipperary, N.) | MacNeill, John Gordon Swift | Rowlands, James |
| Esmonde, Sir Thomas (Wexford, N.) | MacVeagh, Jeremiah | St. Maur, Harold |
| Essex, Richard Walter | M'Curdy, Charles Albert | Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland) |
| Falconer, James | M'Laren, H. D. (Leices.) | Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees) |
| Farrell, James Patrick | M'Micking, Major Gilbert | Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel) |
| Gelder, Sir William Alfred | Marshall, Arthur Harold | Scanlan, Thomas |
| Gill, Alfred Henry | Mason, David M. (Coventry) | Scott, A. M'Callum (Glasgow, Bridgeton) |
| Glanville, Harold James | Masterman, C. F. G. | Seely, Col., Rt. Hon. J. E. B. |
| Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford | Mathias, Richard | Sherwell, Arthur James |
| Goldstone, Frank | Meagher, Michael | Simon, Sir John Allsebrook |
| Greig, Colonel J. W. | Meehan, F. E. (Leitrim, North) | Smith, Albert (Lancs., Clitheroe) |
| Guest, Major Hon. C. H. C. (Pembroke) | Mond, Sir Alfred Moritz | Smith, H. B. Lees (Northampton) |
| Guest, Hon. Frederick E. (Dorset, E.) | Money, L. G. Chiozza | Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim) |
| Gulland, John William | Montagu, Hon. E. S. | Soares, Ernest Joseph |
| Gwynn, Stephen Lucius | Moorey, John J. | Stanley, Albert (Staffs, N. W.) |
| Hackett, John | Morgan, George Hay | Strauss, Edward A. (Southwark, West) |
| Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose) | Morrell, Philip | Summers, James Woolley |
| Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale) | Munro, Robert | Sutton, John E. |
| Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, West) | Murray, Capt. Hon. Arthur C. | Taylor, John W. (Durham) |
| Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth) | Needham, Christopher T. | Tennant, Harold John |
| Havelock-Allan, Sir Henry | Neilson, Francis | Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton) |
| Haworth, Arthur A. | Nolan, Joseph | Toulmin, George |
| Hayden, John Patrick | Norman, Sir Henry | Trevelyan, Charles Philips |
| Hayward, Evan | O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) | Ure, Rt. Hon. Alexander |
| Helme, Norval Watson | O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.) | Verney, Sir Harry |
| Henderson, Arthur (Durham) | O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool) | Walters, John Tudor |
| Henry, Sir Charles | O'Dowd, John | Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent) |
| Higham, John Sharp | O'Grady, James | Wardle, George J. |
| Hinds, John | O'Kelly, Edward P. (Wicklow, W.) | Webb, H. |
| Hobhouse, Rt. Hon. Charles E. H. | O'Malley, William | Wedgwood, Josiah C. |
| Holt, Richard Durning | O'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, S.) | White, Patrick (Meath, North) |
| Horne, Charles Silvester (Ipswich) | O'Shaughnessy, P. J. | Whyte, A. F. |
| Hudson, Walter | O'Sullivan, Timothy | Williams, John (Glamorgan) |
| Hughes, S. L. | Palmer, Godfrey Mark | Williams, Penry (Middlesbrough) |
| Illingworth, Percy H. | Parker, James (Halifax) | Wilson, Hon. G. G. (Hull, W.) |
| Isaacs, Sir Rufus Daniel | Pearce, Robert (Staffs., Leek) | Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton) |
| John, Edward Thomas | Pearson, Hon. Weetman H. M. | Wood, T. M'Kinnon (Glasgow) |
| Johnson, William | Pease, Rt. Hon. Joseph A. (Rotherham) | Young, William (Perth, East) |
| Jones, Edgar R. (Merthyr Tydvil) | Pirie, Duncan V. | |
| Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) | Pointer, Joseph | |
| Jones, Leif Stratten (Notts, Rushcliffe) | Pollard, Sir George H. | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— Mr. Dudley Ward and Mr. Benn. |
| Jones, W. S. Glyn- (T'w'r H'mts, Stepney) | Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H. | |
| Keating, Matthew | Power, Patrick Joseph |
§ [The CHAIRMAN (Mr. Emmott) in the Chair.]