§ Motion made, and Question proposed,
§ 3. "That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding £18,000, be granted to His Majesty to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on 31st March, 1911, for Stationery, Printing, Paper, Binding, and Printed Books for the Public Service, and for the Salaries and Expenses of the Stationery Office."
Mr. WORTHINGTON-EVANSOn this Vote I have a few questions which I should like to ask the right hon. Gentleman the Financial Secretary to the Treasury, before our discussion of the Estimate, because it is almost impossible to understand, without a good many further) details, what it is we are asked to sanction. Under the headings B, D, F, H, and J there is an increased total of £27,000 required. Such diversity of items are included under these as apparently the cost of supplying the Land Valuation Offices—presumably for the printing of the amended Form IV. Amongst other things there seem to be special demands for 768 mourning stationery. I should like to ask the right hon. Gentleman what is the com position of that £27,000, and how much is in connection with the revised Form IV.? I imagine that we shall be allowed to discuss the policy of the new Form IV. upon this Vote, seeing that it is a new item—
§ The CHAIRMAN (Mr. Emmott)We have nothing to do with the policy of Form IV. It is merely the cost of printing.
Mr. WORTHINGTON-EVANSI am afraid I did not make myself plain. It is the policy of printing the new Form IV., not the policy of the Form itself, that I desire to draw attention to. There must be in this Vote some sum which has been set aside to meet the cost of the revised Form IV. The Appropriations-in-Aid includes different classes of items, receipts from repayments, advertisements in the "London Gazette," and also from sales of waste. There is a small item which I think the Committee would be very interested to find accounted for. We know that the Secretary to the Board of Agriculture some time ago, quite by mistake, used 769 some official paper for which he subsequently paid. That, of course, would come into the Appropriations-in-Aid, or it may be one of those receipts which are dealt with in the Note set down in Class 2 of the Civil Service Commission. I do not know that any Note has been attached to this Estimate to the effect that it is included in the Appropriations-in-Aid. I hope the right hon. Gentleman will see that the payment by the Secretary of the Board of Agriculture for the official paper that he used by mistake is actually included. There are other questions to which I think answers ought to be given by the right hon. Gentleman before we can discuss this matter in detail, and I would ask the Financial Secretary to answer the two questions I have put to him.
§ Lord HUGH CECILI confess it is a very puzzling Estimate, and I am not surprised that my hon. Friend does not fully understand it. I understand the additional sums are required to meet the cost of supply to the Land Valuation Offices, and the cost of mourning stationery. The latter is understandable. But I am quite unable to understand why the cost of supplying stationery to the Land. Valuation Office should have taken the Government more by surprise than the cost of supplying additional stationery to any other office. A great deal of stationery has been used, for instance, in my own experience, in the case of the "Welsh Church Commission, but that, no doubt, was foreseen in connection with the original Vote, and was included in it. I should have thought one of the most probable causes of expenditure would be the additional expense of the form for the new land valuation. Then we have an item of an additional £600 increase for horses, carts, and carriages. Was it that so many people had to be removed from the Land Valuation Office owing to the surprise they experienced at the late Budget? After all, I do not understand why you should want horses and carts in the business of land valuation at all. I presume that the main cost is in connection with the Valuation Form, and it is possible it was caused by the alteration in the form. If that is so we ought to be told so, and we ought to be told who is responsible for a mistake of that kind. With regard to the Appropriation-in-Aid anyone could explain why the Government is taken by surprise by the savings that have been made. Sales of waste paper, I suppose, means sales of paper put in the waste-paper basket. What are the repayment 770 departments? Why do they repay? and where do they get the money? These matters, I think, ought, to be explained.
§ Sir F. BANBURYI think I could ex plain one item, that is with regard to horses, carts, and carriages. I think it is put down in the form in which it appears in order to mystify people, so that when hon. Members on this side of the House who are carefully watching the expenditure of the country—
§ Mr. LANSBURYExcept when a contract is on the job!
§ Viscount HELMSLEYI desire to call your attention, Mr. Emmott, to the remark made by the hon. Member for Bow and Bromley. He says that hon. Members on this side of the House are very attentive to expenditure except when there is a contract on. Is that a proper expression?
§ The CHAIRMANI do not really know what the hon. Member meant; but I deprecate all these disorderly cries. There are far too many interruptions; they do not add to the order of our Debates, or in any other way facilitate business.
§ Sir F. BANBURYI think this is an extremely bad case of under estimation that there should be an increase of £600 on an original item of £3,000. An increase of £600 does not in itself seem to me a very large amount, when discussing such large expenditure as is going on now, but an increase of £600 on an original vote of £3,000 is an increase of 20 per cent., which is very large. I notice in connection with these Votes something which I do not remember ever having seen in any other Estimates. There is a large increase on every single item. When you come to the item for incidental expenses, which was originally £1,200, there is an increaes of £200, or 20 per cent. Surely there might have been a little more care in connection with these Supplementary Estimates. We find evidence of great sloppiness in connection with every single one of them. I think hon. Gentlemen opposite should be a little more careful before they bring accusations of sloppiness against us.
When we come to the item for paper to the public departments we find an increase from £225,000 to £239,000. It shows an increase of £14,000. You could buy a great deal of paper with £14,000, and it seems to me extraordinary that a proper estimate was not made for paper. The right 771 hon. Gentleman the Secretary to the Treasury is very economic of paper when he comes to offering an explanation of these items, because he gives his explanation of them in two and a half lines. I think if he exercises so little economy as to spend an additional £14,000 upon paper he could have afforded to be a little more liberal in his explanations, and might have given an explanation under each separate head instead of lumping them together, and if he had done so it would have conduced, not only to advancing the business of the Committee, but also to a considerable saving in point of time. With regard to the item for additional cost in the Land Valuation Office, I think there is no excuse for not knowing what the land valuation was going to cost in the matter of paper. The question of land valuation was before the country for over a year, and the right hon. Gentleman must have known perfectly well what the requirements would be. There is no excuse whatever for this error in estimating the amount of paper. It is not a very difficult problem and ought not to have been too difficult for right hon. Gentlemen opposite to make out. They were not taken by surprise, it was not as if they did not know the difficulty of filling up these forms. There is no excuse whatever for coming down to the House and asking for such a large increase as £14,000. Then we come to the item for binding. What binding does it refer to? There is an increase of £7,000, from £77,000 to £84,000. That is an enormous increase for a party who pose as the party of economy, and who, as I remember, when they sat upon this side of the House, were always opposed to Supplementary Estimates. Now we come to the item Miscellaneous Small Stores, and here we find an increase of £5,200, which is by no means a small figure. Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman will tell us what miscellaneous stores are, and why there should be such a very large increase? In the case of Appropriations-in-Aid, the increase is not quite so large the total having risen from £130,000 to £139,000. The explanation given refers to sales of waste. I want to know what is the waste. Does it refer to some of the paper we have spent £14,000 upon? Is some of it due to the valuation forms which you were going to send to Ireland, and which consequently are now waste? Does it mean that the hon. and learned Member for Waterford has interfered here and 772 said "You must destroy those forms so that there will be no danger of you not carrying out the bargain you have made?" This is an item upon which, I think, we are entitled to have the fullest information. The hon. Member for Kirkcaldy (Sir Henry Dalziel) used to exercise a very close supervision over these matters, and I never objected to the hon. Member doing so. Sometimes I thought it was a good thing that he did so, and I should be the first to do the same in the case of any party, because we require a wholesome check upon these Estimates. Because the hon. Member for Kirkcaldy sits opposite I hope his zeal is not quenched on that account, and that he is still prepared to give valuable assistance when these questions are brought before the House. I have endeavoured as shortly as possible to put a few matters before the House which seem to me to require some explanation, and I trust the Financial Secretary to the Treasury will give a satisfactory explanation, or otherwise we may have to divide the Committee upon these items.
Sir HENRY DALZIELThe hon. Baronet (Sir F. Banbury) has expressed some doubt lest my zeal in favour of economy has diminisihed. If there had been any danger of that I am sure that the hon. Baronet's most eloquent speech would have revived that zeal had it shown any signs of diminishing. There are two questions which I wish to put to the right hon. Gentleman. May I preface what I have to say by expressing the opinion that there is great room for economy in regard to this particular Vote, and particularly with regard to the publications of the Treasury and other Departments. There can be no doubt of that in face of the evidence put before the Committee appointed two years ago, which was presided over by the hon. Member for Bury (Mr. Toulmin), which showed that economies amounting to a saving to the National Exchequer of between £30,000 and £50,000 a year could be effected, and we are now absolutely saving this amount of money which without a shadow of doubt had been wasted before. I think that is generally admitted. The work of that Committee was interrupted by the General Election, and I do not know whether it was set up again last year. I wish to ask the Secretary to the Treasury whether he will at once, without the slightest delay, set up that Committee again in the interests of true economy and for the general advantage of 773 the public service. I must press for an answer on that point, because it is some security to know that there is in existence a Committee going carefully into every item, careful to see that there is no duplication in the matter of printing. I hope we shall have a satisfactory assurance on that point.
I am not sure whether this particular Vote comes under the cognisance of the Committee presided over by the hon. Member for Bury, but if not I think it ought to. That Committee is not all we might desire, but it is a Committee dealing with publications, printing, and paper in connection with the Government Departments, and I have no hesitation in saying, from evidence I have consulted recently, that a saving of £100,000 a year, and not 6d. less, could be effected upon these items. We saved £30,000 in a few months, and I believe in six months more we could save £100,000 if the Committee appointed has a wider reference. It is no good talking about economy if we do not do something to bring it about. During the last few years, although we all profess to be economists, gradually and certainly the expenses of almost every Department of the Government are going up year after year. I know it is very unpopular to talk about economy in this House, but I hope the Secretary to the Treasury, with his well-known courage and remarkable ability, will devote himself to this particular purpose; and in spite of the sneers he may get and the unpopularity he may experience with a certain section of the public, I am sure he will have the sincere gratitude of the great majority of hon. Members of this House. This matter has got to be taken in hand firmly and examined closely, and when the right hon. Gentleman sets up this Committee I hope he will give it a wider reference. We are spending £250,000 a year on paper, and I would like to know what kind of contracts are made. The paper market is a fluctuating market.
§ The CHAIRMANThe hon. Member is now going into the general question of policy which can only arise upon the original Estimate. We are now concerned only with the Supplementary Estimate of £14,000.
Sir HENRY DALZIELMy point is that if the Treasury had had a running contract they would have saved this £14,000. A few years ago paper was much cheaper than it was at the present moment. I 774 suggest that the right hon. Gentleman should give his attention to the question when we are spending such a large amount as £250,000 a year, and consider whether he should not, upon a favourable occasion, make a contract which would keep his expenditure steady and take advantage of any fluctuations in the market. If the right hon. Gentleman is buying from week to week he is simply being robbed. He might tell us whether he has got any running contracts with regard to the whole of this supply or any portion of it. I hope the Secretary for the Treasury will give us an assurance that the Committee to which I have referred is going to be set up without any further delay.
§ Mr. W. R. PEELI am glad to notice that the hon. Gentleman opposite (Sir Henry Dalziel) stimulated by my hon. Friend (Sir F. Banbury) on this side of the House has lifted up his voice in favour of economy. I was beginning to get anxious lest the cause of economy was being taken up only on this side of the House. We are in a minority, and our efforts in the cause of economy sincere as they are will only have a slight effect with the Government. For this reason I am grateful to the hon. Member opposite that he has risen and made some very pertinent observations and suggestions by which the Government may reduce their expenditure. The hon. Member has not confined himself to those items of general expenditure which we heard a great deal about when he was in Opposition. The hon. Member, however, has made certain practical suggestions as to the way this economy is to be carried out. I do not know whether I ought to compare small things with great or great things with small, but I may tell the right hon. Gentleman for his edification that a few years ago an inquiry was instituted into the expenditure of the London County Council upon printing and stationery at a time when there had been a very great increase upon that item. A committee was appointed, and, as a result of the criticisms of that committee, it was discovered that there was a certain amount of expenditure on paper which was totally unnecessary. I cannot help thinking that in the case of a large excess of £14,000 the right hon. Gentleman would find some gaps as well. I want to know how this over-estimate arises. I have one suggestion which I think I can make. Looking back at the speeches of hon. Members on the other side of the House, I find they very largely under-estimated the 775 number of owners of land. It was stated that some 10,000 people owned all the land in the country. [HON. MEMBERS: "No; half of it."] I happen to have a quotation with me. Because of recent researches I have come across some of those speeches, and I think it may be possible that the Government were misled in this way. The mere fact that it was supposed so very small a number of people owned all the land of the country may have misled the Government and made them under-estimate the number of people with separate occupations. They may, therefore, when they framed the Estimate, have considered a far smaller amount of paper was required than was subsequently shown to be necessary. After all, was it not shown that there were in London alone no less than 35,000 separate owners?
§ The CHAIRMANThe hon. Member is not discussing this Estimate. I believe all that is done under this Estimate is to print the forms asked for by the Department which was responsible, and therefore the number asked for is a question which should be raised on another Estimate, and not on this.
§ Mr. PEELIt may be they were asked for by another Department, but surely we are entitled to criticise here the expenditure upon those forms and to ask how it arose. If we are told now that the expenditure is purely made on the orders of some other Department, we are hardly in a position in that case to criticise at all money spent upon stationery. These matters of small expenditure require almost more inquiring into than matters of large expenditure. The Government, after all, have shown no desire whatever to economise in large matters, and it is therefore all the more important that they should show some desire to economise in the smaller matters, so that, if they cannot have a reputation for economy in millions, they may have a more enduring reputation for taking care of the pence. I understood my hon. Friend said that the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Agriculture (Sir E. Strachey) had paid for certain paper which he had from the office. I had the opportunity during the recent election of observing some of the paper sent down to Somerset, and very interesting letters indeed were written upon it. The hon. Gentleman, in fact, took the opportunity of stating all the advantages which they enjoyed under the Board of Agriculture.
§ The CHAIRMANThis matter is entirely irrelevant.
§ 4.0 P.M.
§ Mr. PEELI gathered that possibly under the Appropriation-in-Aid there might be included this sum received from the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Agriculture. Of course, if I am wrong, I will not pursue it further. I should like to ask the right hon. Gentleman if he can give us some information as to the small stores. They all seem to be lumped together under one heading "J." They may be small stores, but the amount is large, amounting to no less than £68,000, which is nearly as large as Item H. for binding. Were these Appropriation-in-Aid entirely unforeseen, or is it that in order to balance this Estimate a certain amount of Appropriation-in-Aid have been taken from other Votes and transferred to this, so that the excess may not appear so large? One would like to know, not only whether the Votes themselves, but also the Appropriations-in-Aid, were matters entirely unforeseen and on which the Government were utterly unable to form an estimate at the time the Estimates were drawn up.
§ Viscount HELMSLEYThere are just a few points I desire to raise on this Estimate, and the chief of them is with regard to the general increase shown over the whole Estimate. It is all very well for us to come down to this House and tell the right hon. Gentleman he ought to have been more economical, but we do not get very much further; and I want to find out who has the actual spending of these amounts not estimated for. It would be very interesting if the right hon. Gentleman would explain what check there is upon a Department in ordering this additional stationery. Who is it in a public Department who does the ordering? Can anybody who fancies they can send in an order to His Majesty's Stationery Office for any paper they require? If so, it is not at all surprising that the Estimates show the increases they do at the present time. I should like to know, with reference to what the hon. Member for the Kirkcaldy Burghs (Sir Henry Dalziel) said with regard to the contracts for paper, where the paper comes from, and who are the firms which supply it. Are they selected by open tender or not? I think it is very important there should be open tenders for supplies to the Government of this country.
§ The CHAIRMANThis is again a question of general policy. The Noble Lord must confine himself to the Supplementary Estimates.
§ Viscount HELMSLEYI want to find out why there is such a large increase in a particular item, and all I am suggesting is that such inevitable increases as may occasionally occur owing to special circumstances in the year might be balanced if there was a better system of getting the paper. It would therefore be interesting if the right hon. Gentleman would tell us whether there is a system of open tenders for the ordering of paper.
§ The CHAIRMANI have just ruled that question out of order.
§ Viscount HELMSLEYI am sorry if I have unwittingly transgressed your ruling, but I thought I had made it clear there was an excess on this Estimate. With regard to horses and carts we often see in the streets His Majesty's Stationery Office Vans going about, and it seems odd that additional vans should be required? Why should not Government offices help one another? Many Post Office mail vans have been abandoned in favour of motor traffic, and that must have left a considerable supply of horses and carts available for use. It would be interesting to know whether these horses and carts are sold by the Post Office as a mere matter of waste, or whether, when there is a deficiency in another Department they are handed over to supply that deficiency. Why could not this extra requirement for horses and carts have been met without coming to the House for this additional estimate. I fully realise that the right hon. Gentleman, although he is responsible for the estimate, cannot deal with details. But what we want to know, in order to help the House of Commons to economise, is whether any check really exists, or whether or not there are existing such economical arrangements as would exist in any business other than a Government office?
§ Mr. TOULMINI should like to be allowed to say, in answer to the hon. Member for Kirkcaldy, that there is nothing in the reference to the Publications Committee which would have enabled them to 778 exercise any influence on these Supplementary Estimates. The Committee is concerned entirely with publications ordered by or presented to this House. The hon. Gentleman the Member for the City of London really answered himself when criticising the omission of the cost of the Land Valuation forms, for that expense was omitted because when these estimates were presented last February the Budget was not passed. It does not seem to me to be a good or proper thing for any Department of the Government to include in its Estimates for the coming year the problematical cost under an Act not yet passed.
§ Sir F. BANBURYI always understood that the Government knew they had a majority to pass the Act, and that therefore it was a foregone conclusion.
§ Mr. TOULMINI do not think the Treasury would sanction that principle at all. They would be justified in making the Estimate without taking that into consideration. Nor is it objectionable, for if they had been included last year the House would not have had this opportunity of considering this expenditure.
§ Mr. YOUNGERThe point put by the hon. Member opposite is met by this, that we cannot discuss the policy of this question. Therefore I do not think his argument is a good one. May I point out that the original Estimate was £20,000, and that has increased to £34,000, so that there is an additional sum of some £14,000. I hope the right hon. Gentleman will tell us whether that great expenditure was incurred in connection with the printing and publishing of the forms under the Budget of 1909–10. Was this extra cost of £14,000 or £15,000 caused by the unnecessary complexity of those forms and the unnecessary amount of paper used. The Chancellor of the Exchequer, in answer to a question, said it was not necessary to answer questions as to which the taxpayer had no information, and the words "not known" could be given as a reply. But that sort of policy involved the waste of an immense amount of unnecessary paper. Let me refer to a form in connection with the Licensing Clauses, Form LLI, which contained some five or six pages, and no doubt the cost of that is included in the £14,000, and two or three pages were withdrawn almost at the moment it was issued.
§ The CHAIRMANIt has nothing to do with the printing. This Department has no responsibility for any mistake in those forms.
§ Mr. YOUNGERWhat I am trying to arrive at is whether this sum of £14,000 which we are now asked to vote is not due to extravagance in regard to the forms which were issued. I do say that these forms were issued in such a way as first of all to be very costly, and, in the second place, in many respects wholly unnecessary.
§ The CHAIRMANThe hon. Member is entitled to ask a question as to whether a large portion of this sum is due to unnecessary printing, but when he goes on to comment he is wrong.
§ Mr. YOUNGERThen I do ask that—whether a large part of this expense is in consequence of the printing which was proved to be unnecessary and was withdrawn?
§ Mr. HOBHOUSEA great number of questions have been put to me in the course of the last hour which I will endeavour to answer. The general charge which has been made against me and the Department I now represent by most speakers is in regard to some unforeseen extras which have arisen. I may say that practically the whole of this increase is due to a very old friend, the House of Lords, and is due to their action in throwing out the Budget.
§ Mr. CROFTMay I ask, Sir, whether the statement of the right hon. Gentleman would not apply in exactly the same way as those of hon. Gentlemen on this side of the House to general policy and general purposes?
§ The CHAIRMANI suppose the hon. Member desires to ask whether the Secretary to the Treasury is out of order or not. The right hon. Gentleman was asked a question as to why there was this increase in the cost of printing, and he has given the answer. If he went on to comment on whether it was wise or not of course he would be out of order.
§ Mr. HOBHOUSEI have no desire to transgress your ruling. I was asked the reason, and I gave it.
§ Viscount HELMSLEYWill the right hon. Gentleman say how?
§ Mr. HOBHOUSEThe Finance Bill only passed on 29th April, 1910. The Estimates have to be made up, many of them, in December, and all of them by the end of January. A great number of questions were addressed to me in the course of last year as to whether the Government were authorising expenditure in anticipation of the Budget, and a very great deal of exception was taken to the supposed sanction of expenditure in anticipation of the Budget passing. Now the criticism is that we did not anticipate the passing of the Budget, that we did not provide the expenditure for these valuation forms in anticipation of the subsequent sanction of the Budget. The whole of this increased expenditure is due to the fact that there was nothing authorising the actual land valuation, and, of course, the expenses connected with it in the shape of forms issued to the holders of land which will have to be valued. I have looked at the expenditure covered by this sum. It all goes in one form or another, and was consequent upon the legislation passed on 29th April, 1910. With regard to the Ap-propriations-in-Aid, certain Departments are not under the direct control of the Government, such as the Development Commission and various semi-official Departments of that sort which are allowed, for what are practically national purposes, to purchase their stanionery from the Stationery Office at what is practically cost price and they repay out of the sums placed at their disposal by Parliament the amount of the stationery so bought. It is really more in the nature of a bookkeeping transaction than anything else. The question of horses, carts, and carriages was also raised. It is clear, you cannot have a very largely increased output from the Stationery Department required by every Government Department without transporting them. The carriage arrangements are all by contract. You have more paper to carry and you carry it more frequently. Thence arises the charge.
§ Viscount HELMSLEYAre those carts we see with H.M. Stationery Office on them contractors' carts?
§ Mr. HOBHOUSEYes. The hon. Member (Mr. Peel) raised the question of the examination by the London County Council Committee as to the cost of stationery m connection with that body. When the London County Council started their committee the first thing they did 781 was to come to the Stationery Office and ask them how they arranged the paper which they used. They adopted all the suggestions of the Stationery Office, and if any economy has been introduced into the administration of the London County Council, of which I am not exactly sure, it is apparently due to the advice of His Majesty's Stationery Office, and they have made formal acknowledgment of their indebtedness to the Stationery Office. I must congratulate the London County Council and its representatives in this House on having adopted the admirable suggestions of His Majesty's Stationery Office. I do not think that I need follow the hon. Member into the observations he made about my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary for the Board of Agriculture.
Everybody knows under what circumstances a mistake was committed by the hon. Gentleman's private secretary. The moment it was brought to his notice he redeemed it in the only way he could redeem an error on the part of one of his subordinates. My hon. Friend the Member for the Kircaldy Burghs (Sir Henry Dalziel) raised the question of the reappointment of the Committee to deal with publications. There is no Member of this House who is more concerned with economies of all sorts in the public service than the Financial Secretary to the Treasury. He has some responsibility for the presentation of the Estimates in this House, and he has some responsibility to the House in respect of the expenditure of national funds, and as my hon. Friends know the duties performed by the Financial Secretary sometimes do not meet with much appreciation or popularity in this House. One is constantly in contact with all sorts of proposals for expenditure, and if there are any Members of this House who desire to take upon themselves the duties which are performed by the occupant of this post, and who think that the burdens which now fall upon him should be transferred to them, I am not sure that they would be more successful than the Committee presided over by the hon. Member for Bury (Mr. Toulmin) in reducing expenditure. In regard to this matter, I will be glad to consult with my hon. Friends and see whether such a. Committee is not necessary and should not be set up. A question was asked by an hon. Member as to the ordering of stationery. The ordering of stationery is done by the chief clerks of the different Departments. 782 There is one official in all Government offices known as the Chief Clerk, and he is practically responsible for ordering all the stationery consumed in the Department. If there was any undue expenditure on the part of any Department, it surely would be brought to the notice of the Treasury by the Stationery Office.
§ Sir F. BANBURYWhat about the sale of waste paper?
§ Mr. HOBHOUSEI am very glad that the hon. Baronet has brought to the attention of the Committee the sums received by the sale of waste paper. It is not so much as was suggested. The fact is that there has been an enormous amount of stationery consumed, among other places, by this House on account of the extra labours of the House. There has been an increase in the general consumption of stationery all round, and that has led to an increase for waste. In reference to the item for binding, I may point out that there is a natural growth in all these great Government Departments, such as the Local Government Board and the Board of Education. These establishments grow with the growth of the population.
§ Mr. W. R. PEELCould not that have been foreseen?
§ Mr. HOBHOUSENot entirely. The extra duties thrown by legislation on these great Departments owing to the gradual expense and the strengthening needs of the people must of necessity cause extra binding, extra books, papers, and documents. That is spread over an expenditure of something like £170,000,000, and the excess on this particular item is only £5,000. I do not think that that is an unreasonable explanation, not from the Government, but from the Departments through the Government of the extra expenditure required.
§ Mr. W. R. PEELAs they allowed for what they call natural increase, £1,000 in the Estimates, surely this extra sum must be due to some special expenditure which was unforeseen, which cannot be put down to the mere fact, as we all know, that the demands of legislation are constantly growing. That is a matter that is allowed for in the Estimates, and I hardly think that the right hon. Gentleman's explanation accounts for this specific increase of £7,000, which is much larger than the usual normal increase.
Sir HENRY DALZIELI thank the right hon. Gentleman for what he has said with regard to setting up the Committee. I sincerely hope that the result will be to set up one with a wide reference. There is one other point I want him to reply to. I do not press him now, because I can put a question on the subject. The question of contracts is of vital importance, as to whether the Departments should have short or long contracts. If the right hon. Gentleman is not able to answer that now I will not press him on that point. In reference to the question of British paper, is it really the case that it is all British-made paper that is used? Even the most extreme Tariff Reform organs which announce every day that Tariff Reform means more work for British labour buy every pound of their paper from abroad, because there are some classes of paper that they are able to buy much cheaper and much better abroad. Therefore I am astonished to hear that in this case you buy all the paper at home. If you are able to do so at as good a price as abroad, of course it is satisfactory. It is somewhat surprising that with an expenditure of a quarter of a million of money it is all British-made paper. I would ask the right hon. Gentleman to look into this matter.
§ Mr. STUART-WORTLEYIf, as the right hon. Gentleman has said, this extra expenditure is due to the normal growth in the working of the Departments, surely it is the business of the Chancellor of the Exchequer to foresee that growth and provide for it, not in a Supplementary Estimate but in the original Estimates, and not to manufacture surpluses by incorrectly estimating expenditure in such palpable matters as that. The right hon. Gentleman is not accurate in his historical facts in attributing increased expenditure to the action of the House of Lords. If it is no more than the opinion of the right hon. Gentleman, it is a totally controversial opinion, and one which I submit to the House is very little worthy of its respect, because everyone knows that the late date at which the Budget was taken was not due to matters beyond the Government's control. It was only one of those unedifying transactions by which the real financial interests of the nation were sacrificed to party interests.
§ Sir HENRY CRAIKThe explanation of the right hon. Gentleman is very insufficient on one particular point. He is asked for an explanation as to the extraordinary 784 and quite abnormal increase in the cost of binding. The right hon. Gentleman seems to assert that it is due to some regular and automatic increase of the papers issued by the Departments. The different Departments do not issue blue books in a bound form. Why is there this enormous increase of seven times the normal sum for the cost of binding? There seems to be some idea that perpetuity is to be given to these blue books. Who is it that wishes them to be bound?
§ Mr. HOBHOUSEThe words blue book are the hon. Gentleman's own interpolation. I never used the words blue book.
§ Sir H. CRAIKI will depart from the words "Blue Book." Why is it that the papers sent out are to be bound? An express order must have been sent out for some purpose, and why is it that these papers are to be preserved in bound form? Surely the matter is capable of some explanation.
§ Sir F. BANBURYI am afraid the explanation of the right hon. Gentlesman is not very satisfactory. The explanations which the right hon. Gentleman has just put forward have reference to the House of Lords and the "national growth." I do not know whether he means national growth as applied to the House of Lords. But the national growth is a very poor excuse for these Supplementary Estimates. The national growth must have been going on a year ago; national growth is not suddenly developed within a year. Besides, with his experience, the right hon. Gentleman ought to have provided for national growth, especially with the advent of a Liberal Government. With regard to carriage, the right hon. Gentleman said that with an increase of material which has to be carted about there is an increase of the cost of cartage. There has been an increase of paper, which is not carted about very much. The increase of paper has cost £14,000, and £600 is the charge for its cartage; £600 is a large amount for the carriage of £14,000 worth of goods. I am inclined to think it could be done cheaper than that. I beg to move that item B be reduced by £200.
§ Question put, "That item B (Horses, and Carts and Carriages) be reduced by £200."
§ The Committee divided: Ayes, 89; Noes, 216.
767| Division No. 30.] | AYES. | [3.35. p.m. |
| Abraham, William (Dublin Harbour) | Esmonde, Sir Thomas (Wexford, N.) | Martin, Joseph |
| Acland, Francis Dyke | Essex, Richard Walter | Mason, David M. (Coventry) |
| Adamson, William | Esslemont, George Birnie | Mathias, Richard |
| Alden, Percy | Falconer, James | Meagher, Michael |
| Allen, Arthur Acland (Dumbartonshire) | Farrell, James Patrick | Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.) |
| Allen, Charles Peter (Stroud) | Fenwick, Charles | Meehan, Patrick A. (Queen's County) |
| Ashton, Thomas Gair | Ffrench, Peter | Menzies, Sir Walter |
| Baker, Joseph Allen (Finsbury, E.) | Fitzgibbon, John | Molloy, Michael |
| Balfour, Sir Robert (Lanark) | Glanville, Harold James | Montagu, Hon. E. S. |
| Barlow, Sir John Emmott (Somerset) | Goldstone, Frank | Morgan, George Hay |
| Barry, Redmond John (Tyrone, N.) | Greenwood, Granville G. (Peterborough) | Morton, Alpheus Cleophas |
| Barton, William | Greig, Col. James William | Muldoon, John |
| Beale, William Phipson | Guest, Hon. Frederick E. (Dorset, E.) | Munro, Robert |
| Bonn, W. W. (T. Hamlets, St. Geo.) | Guest, Hon. Major C. H. C. (Pembroke) | Munro-Ferguson, Rt. Hon. R. C. |
| Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine | Gwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway) | Murray, Capt. Hon. Arthur C. |
| Boland, John Pius | Haldane, Rt. Hon. Richard B. | Newton, Harry Kottingham |
| Booth, Frederick Handel | Harcourt, Rt. Hon. L. (Rossendale) | Nolan, Joseph |
| Bowerman, Charles W. | Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose) | Norman, Sir Henry |
| Brace, William | Hardie, J. Keir (Merthyr Tydvil) | Norton, Capt. Cecil W. |
| Brigg, Sir John | Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshirs, N. E.) | O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) |
| Brocklehurst, William B. | Harwood, George | O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.) |
| Brunner, John F. L. | Haslam, James (Derbyshire) | O'Donnell, Thomas |
| Bryce, John Annan | Havelock-Allan, Sir Henry | O'Dowd, John |
| Burke, E. Haviland- | Hayden, John Patrick | O'Grady, James |
| Burns, Rt. Hon. John | Hazleton, Richard (Galway, N.) | O'Kelly, Edward P. (Wicklow, W.) |
| Burt, Rt. Hon Thomas | Henderson, Arthur (Durham) | O'Malley, William |
| Buxton, Rt. Hon. S. C. (Poplar) | Henry, Sir Charles S. | O'Shaughnessy, P. J. |
| Byles, William Pollard | Higham, John Sharp | O'Shee, James John |
| Cameron, Robert | Hinds, John | O'Sullivan, Timothy |
| Carr-Gomm, H. W. | Hobhouse, Rt. Hon. Charles E. H. | Parker, James (Halifax) |
| Cawley, Sir Frederick (Prestwich) | Howard, Hon. Geoffrey | Pearce, William (Limehouse) |
| Chancellor, H. C. | Hunter, Wm. (Lanark, Govan) | Pease, Rt. Hon. Joseph A. (Rotherham) |
| Chapple, Dr. William Allen | Isaacs, Sir Rufus Daniel | Phillips, John (Longford, S.) |
| Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston S. | Johnson, William | Pickersgill, Edward Hare |
| Clancy, John Joseph | Jones, Sir D. Brynmor (Swansea) | Power, Patrick Joseph |
| Clough, William | Jones, Edgar R. (Merthyr Tydvil) | Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central) |
| Collins, Stephen (Lambeth) | Jones, Leif Stratten (Notts, Rushcliffe) | Price, Sir Robert J. (Norfolk, E.) |
| Compton-Rickett, Rt. Hon. Sir J. | Jones, William (Carnarvonshire) | Pringle, William M. R. |
| Condon, Thomas Joseph | Jones, W. S. Glyn- (T. H'mts, Stepney) | Radford, Geirge Heynes |
| Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow) | Jowett, Frederick William | Rainy Adam Rolland |
| Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. | Joyce, Michael | Raphael, Sir Herbert Henry |
| Cotton, William Francis | Kellaway, Frederick George | Rea, Rt. Hon. Russell (South Shields) |
| Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth) | Kilbride, Denis | Reddy, Michael |
| Crawshay-Williams, Eliot | King, Joseph (Somerset, N.) | Redmond, John E. (Waterford) |
| Crooks, William | Lambert, George (S. Molton) | Redmond, William Archer (Tyrone, E) |
| Crumley, Patrick | Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade) | Richards, Thomas |
| Davies, Timothy (Lincs., Louth) | Lansbury, George | Richardson, Thomas (Whitehaven) |
| Davies, Matthew Vaughan- (Cardigan) | Lardner, James Carrige Rushe | Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln) |
| Dawes, James Arthur | Lawson, Sir W. (Cumb'rid., Cockerm'th) | Roberts, George H. (Norfolk) |
| Delany, William | Leach, Charles | Robertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradford) |
| Denman, Hon. Richard Douglas | Logan, John William | Robinson, Sydney |
| Devlin, Joseph | Lyell, Charles Henry | Roch, Walter F. (Pembroke) |
| Dewar, Sir J. A. | Macdonald, J. Ramsay (Leicester) | Roche, John (Galway, E.) |
| Dillon, John | Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk Burghs) | Rowlands, James |
| Donelan, Captain A. | Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J. | Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland) |
| Doris, William | MacNeill, John Gordon Swift | Seely, Col. Right Hon. J. E. B. |
| Duffy, William J. | MacVeagh, Jeremiah | Sheehy, David |
| Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness) | M'Callum, John M. | Sherwell, Arthur James |
| Edwards, Enoch (Hanley) | McKenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald | Simon, Sir John Allsebrook |
| Edwards, Sir Francis (Radnor) | M'Laren, H. D. (Leices.) | Smith, Albert (Lancs., Clitheroe) |
| Edwards, John Hugh (Glamorgan, Mid.) | M'Micking, Major Gilbert | Smith, H. B. Lees (Northampton) |
| Elibank, Rt. Hon. Master of | Mallaby Deeley, Harry | Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.) |
| Esmonde, Dr. John (Tipperary, N.) | Marshall, Arthur Harold | Soares, Ernest Joseph |
| Spicer, Sir Albert | Warner, Sir Thomas Courtenay | Wilson, Hon. G. G. (Hull, W.) |
| Stanley, Albert (Staffs., N. W.) | Wason, Rt. Hon. E, (Clackmannan) | Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton) |
| Strauss, Edward A. (Southwark, W.) | Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney) | Wood, T. M'Kinnon (Glasgow) |
| Sutherland, John E. | Watt, Henry A. | Young, Samuel (Cavan, East) |
| Tennant, Harold John | Webb, H. | Young, William (Perth, East) |
| Toulmin, George | White, Sir Luke (York, E. R.) | Yoxall, Sir James Henry |
| Trevelyan, Charles Philips | White, Patrick (Meath, North) | |
| Verney, Sir Harry | Whitehouse, John Howard | |
| Wadsworth, John | Whyte, A. F. (Perth) | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr. Illingworth and Mr. Gulland. |
| Ward, W. Dudley (Southampton) | Williams, John (Glamorgan) | |
| Waring, Walter | Williams, Penry (Middlesbrough) | |
| NOES. | ||
| Anson, Sir William Reynell | Fletcher, John Samuel (Hampstead) | Peel, Hon. Wm. R. W. (Taunton) |
| Anstruther-Gray, Major William | Forster, Henry William | Pole-Carew, Sir R. |
| Bagot, Lieut.-Colonel J. | Foster, Philip Staveley | Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel |
| Balcarres, Lord | Gibbs, George Abraham | Rawson, Col. Richard H. |
| Baldwin, Stanley | Goldsmith, Frank | Ronaldshay, Earl of |
| Banbury, Sir Frederick George | Gordon, John | Rothschild, Lionel de |
| Barnston, Harry | Harris, Henry Percy | Rutherford, John (Lancs., Darwen) |
| Bathurst, Hon. Allen B. (Glou., E.) | Helmsley, Viscount | Samuel, Sir Harry (Norwood) |
| Beckett, Hon. William Gervase | Henderson, Major H. (Berks., Abingdon) | Sanderson, Lancelot |
| Benn, Arthur Shirley (Plymouth) | Hill, Sir Clement L. | Smith, Harold (Warrington) |
| Benn, Ian Hamilton (Greenwich) | Hillier, Dr. Alfred Peter | Spear, John Ward |
| Bennett-Goldrey, Francis | Hoare, Samuel John Gurney | Stanley, Hon. G. F. (Preston) |
| Bigland, Alfred | Hope, Harry (Bute) | Stewart, Gershom |
| Boyton, James | Houston, Robert Paterson | Talbot, Lord Edmund |
| Bridgeman, William Clive | Hunter, Sir Charles Rodk. (Bath) | Terrell, George (Wilts, N. W.) |
| Burn, Colonel C. R. | Ingleby, Holcombe | Terrell, Henry (Gloucester) |
| Carlile, Edward Hildred | Jessel, Captain Herbert M. | Thynne, Lord Alexander |
| Cassel, Felix | Kerry, Earl of | Ward, A. S. (Herts, Watford) |
| Cecil, Lord Hugh (Oxford University) | Kimber, Sir Henry | White, Major G. D. (Lanc. Southport) |
| Clive, Percy Archer | Locker-Lampson, O. (Ramsey) | Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.) |
| Clyde, James Avon | Long, Rt. Hon. Walter | Willoughby, Major Hon. Claude |
| Cooper, Richard Ashmole | Lonsdale, John Brownlee | Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E. R.) |
| Courthope, George Lloyd | Lyttelton, Rt. Hn. A. (S. Geo., Han. Sq.) | Wolmer, Viscount |
| Craig, Norman (Kent, Thanet) | Malcolm, Ian | Wood, John (Stalybridge) |
| Craik, Sir Henry | Mason, James F. (Windsor) | Worthington-Evans, L. |
| Crichton-Stuart, Lord Ninian | Mills, Hon. Charles Thomas | Yate, Col. C. E. |
| Croft, Henry Page | Mount, William Arthur | Younger, George |
| Dairymple, Viscount | Neville, Reginald J. N. | |
| Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- | Norton-Griffiths, J. | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Celonel |
| Fleming, Valentine | Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William | Griffith-Boscawen and Mr. Remnant. |
| Division No. 31.] | AYES. | [4.36. p.m. |
| Anstruther-Gray, Major William | Fletcher, John Samuel (Hampstead) | Pole-Carew, Sir R. |
| Archer-Shee, Major M. | Forster, Henry William | Remnant, James Farquharson |
| Bagot, Lieut.-Colonel J. | Gibbs, G. A. | Rice, Hon. Walter F. |
| Balcarres, Lord | Goldsmith, Frank | Ronaldshay, Earl of |
| Baldwin, Stanley | Gordon, J. | Rothschild, Lionel de |
| Barnston, H. | Goulding, E. A. | Rutherford, John (Lancs., Darwen) |
| Bathurst, Hon. A. B. (Glouc, E.) | Harris, Henry Percy | Samuel, Sir Harry (Norwood) |
| Beckett, Hon. W. Gervase | Henderson, Major H. (Berks., Abingdon) | Sanderson, Lancelot |
| Benn, Arthur Shirley (Plymouth) | Hill, Sir Clement L. (Shrewsbury) | Sandys, G. J. (Somerset, Wells) |
| Bennett-Goldney, Francls | Hoare, S. J. G. | Smith, F. E. (Liverpool, Walton) |
| Bigland, Alfred | Hope, Harry (Bute) | Spear, John Ward |
| Boscawen, Sackville T. Griffith- | Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield) | Stanley, Hon. G. F. (Preston) |
| Boyton, James | Houston, Robert Paterson | Stewart, Gershom |
| Bridgeman, W. Clive | Hunt, Rowland | Steel-Maitland, A. D. |
| Burdett-Coutts, W. | Hunter, Sir C. R. (Bath) | Terrell, H. (Gloucester) |
| Burn, Colonel C. E. | Jessel, Captain H. M. | Thynne, Lord Alexander |
| Carlile, E. Hildred | Kebty-Fletcher, J. R. | Ward, Arnold S. (Herts, Watford) |
| Cassel, Felix | Kellaway, Frederick George | White, Major G. D. (Lancs., Southport) |
| Cecil, Lord Hugh (Oxford University) | Kerry, Earl of | Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.) |
| Clive, Percy Archer | Kimber, Sir Henry | Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E. R.) |
| Clyde, J. Avon | Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement | Wolmer, Viscount |
| Cooper, Richard Ashmole | Lee, Arthur H. | Wood, John (Stalybridge) |
| Courthope, George Loyd | Lonsdale, John Brownlee | Worthington-Evans, L. |
| Craig, Charles Curtis (Antrim, S.) | Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. A. (Hanover Sq.) | Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart- |
| Craig, Norman (Kent, Thanet) | Malcolm, Ian | Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George |
| Craik, Sir Henry | Mills, Hon. Charles Thomas | Yate, Col. C. E. |
| Crichton-Stuart, Lord Ninian | Mount, William Arthur | Younger, George |
| Croft, H. P. | Neville, Reginald J. N. | |
| Dairymple, Viscount | Newton, Harry Kottingham | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Sir |
| Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers | Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William | F. Banbury and Mr. Rawlinson. |
| Fleming, Valentine | Peel, Hon. W. R. W. (Taunton) | |
| NOES. | ||
| Abraham, William (Dublin Harbour) | Davies, M. Vaughan- (Cardigan) | Holt, Richard Durning |
| Acland, Francis Dyke | Dawes, J. A. | Howard, Hon. Geoffrey |
| Adamson, William | Delany, William | Hunter, W. (Govan) |
| Alden, Percy | Denman, Hon. R. D. | Isaacs, Sir Rufus Daniel |
| Allen, Arthur A. (Dumbartonshire) | Devlin, Joseph | Johnson, W. |
| Allen, Charles P. (Stroud) | Dewar, Sir J. A. | Jones, Sir O. Brynmor (Swansea) |
| Ashton, Thomas Gair | Dillon, John | Jones, Edgar R. (Merthyr Tydvil) |
| Baker, Joseph A. (Finsbury, E.) | Donelan, Captain A. | Jones, Leif Stratten (Notts, Rushcliffe) |
| Balfour, Sir Robert (Lanark) | Doris, W. | Jones, William (Carnarvonshire) |
| Barlow, Sir John Emmott (Somerset) | Duffy, William J. | Jones, W. S. Glyn- (T. H'mts, Stepney) |
| Barry, Rdmond J. (Tyrone, N.) | Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness) | Joyce, Michael |
| Barton, William | Edwards, Enoch (Hanley) | King, J. (Somerset, N.) |
| Beale, W. P. | Edwards, Sir Francis (Radnor) | Lambert, George (Devon, S. Molton) |
| Beauchamp, Edward | Elibank, Rt. Hon. Master of | Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade) |
| Benn, W. W. (Tower Hamlets, St. Geo.) | Esmonde, Dr. John (Tipperary, N) | Lardner, James Carrige Rushe |
| Boland, John Plus | Esmonde, Sir Thomas (Wexford, N.) | Law, Hugh A. |
| Booth, Frederick Handel | Essex, Richard Walter | Lawson, Sir W. (Cumb'rid, Cockerm'th) |
| Bowerman, C. W. | Esslemont, George Birnie | Leach, Charles |
| Brace, William | Falconer, J. | Lough, Rt. Hon. Thomas |
| Brooklehurst, W. B. | Farrell, James Patrick | Lundon, T. |
| Brunner, J. F. L. | Fenwick, Charles | Lyell, Charles Henry |
| Bryce, J. Annan | Ffrench, Peter | Macdonald, J. Ramsay (Leicester) |
| Burke, E. Haviland- | Field, William | Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk Burghs) |
| Burns, Rt. Hon. John | Fitizibbon, John | Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J. |
| Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas | Flavin, Michael Joseph | MacVeagh, Jeremiah |
| Byles, William Pollard | Glanville, H. J. | M'Callum, John M. |
| Carr-Gomm, H. W. | Goldstone, Frank | M'Kean, John |
| Cawley, Sir Frederick (Prestwich) | Greenwood, Granville G. (Peterborough) | McKenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald |
| Chancellor, H. G. | Greig, Col. J. W. | M'Laren, H. D. (Leicea.) |
| Chapple, Dr. William Allen | Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward | M'Laren, Walter S. B. (Ches., Crewe) |
| Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston S. | Guest, Major Hon. C. H. C. (Pembroke) | M'Micking, Major Gilbert |
| Clancy, John Joseph | Guest, Hon. Frederick E. (Dorset, E.) | Marks, G. Croydon |
| Clough, William | Gwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway) | Marshall, Arthur Harold |
| Collins, Stephen (Lambeth) | Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Lewis (Rossendale) | Mathias, Richard |
| Compton-Rickett, Rt. Hon. Sir J. | Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose) | Meagher, Michael |
| Condon, Thomas Joseph | Hardle, J. Keir (Merthyr Tydvil) | Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.) |
| Corbett, A. Cameron | Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N. E.) | Meehan, Patrick A. (Queen's Co.) |
| Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. | Harwood, George | Menzies, Sir Walter |
| Cotton, William Francis | Haslam, James (Derbyshire) | Molloy, M. |
| Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth) | Havelock-Allan, Sir Henry | Molteno, Percy Alport |
| Crawshay-Williams, Eliot | Hayden, John Patrick | Montagu, Hon. E. S. |
| Crooks, William | Hazleton, Richard (Galway, N.) | Morgan, George Hay |
| Crumley, Patrick | Henry, Sir Charles S. | Morrell, Philip |
| Dalziel, Sir James H. (Kirkcaldy) | Higham, John Sharp | Morton, Alpheus Cleophas |
| Davies, Timothy (Lincs., Louth) | Hinds, John | Muldoon, John |
| Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.) | Hobhouse, Rt. Hon. Charles E. H. | Munro, R. |
| Munro-Ferguson, Rt. Hon. R. C. | Rainy, A. Rolland | Sutherland, J. E. |
| Murray, Capt. Hon. A. C. | Raphael, Sir Herbert H. | Tennant, Harold John |
| Nolan, Joseph | Rea, Rt. Hon. Russell (South Shields) | Toulmin, George |
| Norman, Sir Henry | Reddy, M. | Verney, Sir Harry |
| Norton, Captain Cecil W. | Redmond, John E. (Waterford) | Wadsworth, J. |
| Nugent, Sir Walter Richard | Redmond, William Archer (Tyrone, E.) | Ward, W. Dudley (Southamptes) |
| O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) | Richardson, Thomas (Whitehaven) | Waring, Walter |
| O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.) | Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln) | Warner, Sir Thomas Courtenay |
| O'Doherty, Philip | Roberts, George H. (Norwich) | Wason, Rt. Hon. E. (Clackmannan) |
| O'Donnell, Thomas | Roberts, Sir J. H. (Denbighs) | Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney) |
| O'Dowd, John | Robertson, Sir O. Scott (Bradford) | Watt, Henry A. |
| O'Grady, James | Robinson, Sidney | Webb, H. |
| O'Kelly, Edward P. (Wicklow, W.) | Roche, John (Galway, E.) | White, Sir Luke (York, E. R.) |
| O'Malley, William | Roe, Sir Thomas | White, Patrick (Meath, North) |
| O'Shaughnessy, P. J. | Rose, Sir Charles Day | Whittaker, Rt. Hon. Sir T. P. |
| O'Sullivan, Timothy | Rowlands, James | Whyte, A. F. (Perth) |
| Parker, James (Halifax) | Samuel; Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland) | Williams, J. (Glamorgan |
| Pearce, William (Limehouse) | Seely, Col. Rt. Hon. J. E. B. | Williams, P. (Middlesbrough) |
| Pearson, Hon. Weetman H. M. | Sheehy, David | Wilson, Hon. G. G. (Hull, W.) |
| Pease, Rt. Hon. Joseph A. (Rotherham) | Sherwell, Arthur James | Wilson, W. T. (Westheughton) |
| Philips, John (Longford, S.) | Simon, Sir John Allsebrook | Wood, T. M'Kinnon (Glasgow) |
| Pickersgill, Edward Hare | Smith, Albert (Lancs., Clitheroe) | Young, Samuel (Cavan, E.) |
| Pointer, Joseph | Smith, H. B. L. (Northampton) | Young, W, (Perthshire, E.) |
| Power, Patrick Joseph | Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.) | Yoxall, Sir James Henry |
| Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central) | Soares, Ernest J. | |
| Pringle, William M. R. | Stanley, Albert (Staffs., N. W.) | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr. Illingworth and Mr. Gulland. |
| Radford, George Heynes | Strauss, Edward A. (Southwark, West) |
§ Mr. PEELmoved, "That Item F (Paper for Public Departments) be reduced by £500."—
I never take any action in this House without very careful and anxious thought, and while going through the Lobby I was weighing the reasons given by the right hon. Gentleman for this very unfortunate increase in the cost of paper. He gave only two reasons—one was that it was due to the natural expansion of the national necessities with regard to the further use of paper. I pointed out that in these cases we have a right to expect some sort of foresight in the public department who have to. make, these arrangements, and that they ought to exercise a little prognostication in dealing with these questions as they arise from year to
§ year. It is the custom of hon. Members opposite when anything goes wrong, either in legislation or administration, to say that it is entirely due to the action of the Second Chamber. This was the second reason given by the right hon. Gentleman for the increase of this expenditure. When this expenditure is entirely due to the Department for which the right hon. Gentleman is responsible, I think it not only unfair but rather mean to set down the reason for this increase to the action of another place.
§ Question put, "That Item F (Paper for Public Departments) be reduced by £,500."
§ The Committee divided: Ayes. 84; Noes, 218.
789| Division No. 32]. | AYES. | [4.45. p.m. |
| Archer-Shee, Major Martin | Dairymple, Viscount | Malcolm, Ian |
| Bagot, Lieut.-Colonel J. | Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- | Mills, Hon. Charles Thomas |
| Balcarres, Lord | Fisher, William Hayes | Mount, William Arthur |
| Baldwin, Stanley | Fleming, Valentine | Neville, Reginald J. N. |
| Banbury, Sir Frederick George | Fletcher, John Samuel (Hampstead) | Newton, Harry Kottingham |
| Barnston, Harry | Forster, Henry William | Norton-Griffiths, J. |
| Bathurst, Hon. Allen B. (Glou., E.) | Gibbs, George Abraham | Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William |
| Beckett, Hon. William Gervase | Goldsmith, Frank | Pole-Carew, Sir R. |
| Benn, Arthur Shirley (Plymouth) | Gordon, John | Rawlinson, John Frederick Pee |
| Bennett-Goldney, Francis | Goulding, Edward A. | Remnant, James Farquharson |
| Boscawen, Sackville T. Griffith- | Harris, Henry Percy | Rice, Hon. Walter Fitz-Uryan |
| Boyton, James | Henderson, Major H. (Berks., Abingdon) | Rolleston, Sir John |
| Bridgeman, W. Clive | Hill, Sir Clement L. | Ronaldshay, Earl of |
| Burdett-Coutts, William | Hoare, Samuel John Gurney | Rothschild, Lionel de |
| Burn, Colonel C. R. | Hope, Harry (Bute) | Rutherford, John (Lancs., Darwen) |
| Carlile, Edward Hildred | Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield) | Samuel, Sir Harry (Norwood) |
| Cassel, Felix | Houston, Robert Paterson | Sanderson, Lancelot |
| Cecil, Lord Hugh (Oxford University) | Hunter, Sir Charles Rodk. (Bath) | Smith, F. E. (Liverpool, Walton) |
| Clive, Percy Archer | Jessel, Captain Herbert M. | Spear, John Ward |
| Clyde, James Avon | Kebty-Fletcher, J. R. | Stanley, Hon. G. F. (Preston) |
| Cooper, Richard Ashmole | Kerry, Earl of | Steel-Maitland, A. D. |
| Craig, Norman (Kent, Thanet) | Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement | Stewart, Gershom |
| Craik, Sir Henry | Lee, Arthur Hamilton | Terrell, Henry (Gloucester) |
| Crichton-Stuart, Lord Ninian | Lonsdale, John Brownlee | Thynne, Lord Alexander |
| Crott, Henry Page | Lyttelton, Rt Hn A. (S. Gea., Han. Sq.) | Ward, A. S. (Herts, Watford) |
| White, Major G. D. (Lancs, Southport) | Wood, John (Stalybridge) | Younger, George |
| Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.) | Wortley, Rt Hon. C. B. Stuart- | |
| Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E. R.) | Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr. Peel and Major Anstruther-Cray. |
| Wolmer, Viscount | Yate, Col. C. E. | |
| NOES. | ||
| Abraham, William (Dublin Harbour) | Goldstone, Frank | O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.) |
| Acland, Francis Oyke | Greenwood, Granville G. (Peterborough) | O'Doherty, Philip |
| Adamson, William | Greig, Colonel James William | O'Donnell, Thomas |
| Alden, Percy | Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward | O'Dowd, John |
| Allen, Arthur Acland (Dumbartonshire) | Guest, Major Hon. C. H. C. (Pembroke) | O'Grady, James |
| Allen, Charles P. (Stroud) | Guest, Hon. Frederick E. (Dorset, E.) | O'Kelly, Edward P. (Wicklow, W.) |
| Ashton, Thomas Gair | Gwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway) | O'Malley, William |
| Baker, Joseph Allen (Finsbury, E.) | Haldane, Rt. Hon. Richard B. | O'Shaughnessy, P. J. |
| Balfour, Sir Robert (Lanark) | Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose) | O'Shee, James John |
| Barlow, Sir John Emmott (Somerset) | Harcourt, Rt. Hon. L. (Rossendale) | O'Sullivan, Timothy |
| Barry, Redmond J. (Tyrone, N.) | Hardle, J. Keir | Parker, James (Halifax) |
| Barton, William | Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N. E.) | Pearce, William (Limehouse) |
| Beale, William Phipson | Harwood, George | Pearson, Hon. Weetman H. M. |
| Beauchamp, Edward | Haslam, James (Derbyshire) | Pease, Rt. Hon. Joseph A. (Rotherham) |
| Beck, Arthur Cecil | Havelock-Allan, Sir Henry | Phillips, John (Longford, S.) |
| Bonn, W. W. (T. Hamlets, S. Geo.) | Hayden, John Patrick | Pickersgill, Edward Hare |
| Boland, John Pius | Hazleton, Richard (Galway, N.) | Pointer, Joseph |
| Booth, Frederick Handel | Henderson, J. M. (Aberdeen, W.) | Power, Patrick Joseph |
| Bowerman, C. W. | Henry, Sir Charles Solomon | Price, C E. (Edinburgh, Central) |
| Brace, William | Higham, John Sharp | Pringle, William M. R. |
| Brocklehurst, William B. | Hinds, John | Radford, George Heynes |
| Brunner, John F. L. | Hobhouse, Rt. Hon. Charles E. H. | Rainy, Adam Rolland |
| Bryce, J. Annan | Holt, Richard Durning | Raphael, Sir Herbert Henry |
| Burke, E. Haviland- | Howard, Hon. Geoffrey | Rea, Rt. Hon. Russell (South Shields) |
| Burns, Rt. Hon. John | Hunter, W. (Govan) | Reddy, Michael |
| Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas | Isaacs, Sir Rufus Daniel | Redmond, John E. (Waterford) |
| Buxton, Rt. Hon. S. C. (Poplar) | Johnson, William | Redmond, William Archer (Tyrone, E.) |
| Byles, William Pollard | Jones, Sir D. Brynmor (Swansea) | Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln) |
| Carr-Gomm, H. W. | Jones, Edgar R. (Merthyr Tydvil) | Roberts, George H. (Norwich) |
| Cawley, Sir Frederick (Prestwich) | Jones, Leif) Stratten (Notts, Rushcliffe) | Roberts, Sir J. H. (Denbighs.) |
| Chancellor, Henry George | Jones, William (Carnarvonshire) | Robertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradford) |
| Chapple, Dr. William Allen | Jones, W. S. Glyn- (T. H'mts, St. Geo.) | Robinson, Sydney |
| Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston S. | Joyce, Michael | Roche, John (Galway, E.) |
| Clough, William | Kellaway, Frederick George | Roe, Sir Thomas |
| Collins, Stephen (Lambeth) | King, J. (Somerset, N.) | Rose, Sir Charles Day |
| Compton-Rickett, Rt. Hon. Sir J. | Lambert, George (Devon, S. Molton) | Rowlands, James |
| Condon, Thomas Joseph | Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade) | Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Clevetand) |
| Corbett, A. Cameron | Lardner, James Carrige Rushe | Seely, Col. Rt. Hon. J. E. B. |
| Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. | Law, Hugh A. | Sheehy, David |
| Cotton, William Francis | Lawson, Sir W. (Cumb'rld., Cockerm'th) | Simon, Sir John Allsebrook |
| Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth) | Leach, Charles | Smith, Albert (Lancs., Clitheroe) |
| Crawshay-Williams, Eliot | Lough, Rt. Hon. Thomas | Smith, H. B. L. (Northampton) |
| Crooks, William | Lundon, Thomas | Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.) |
| Crumley, Patrick | Lyell, Charles Henry | Soares, Ernest Joseph |
| Dalziel, Sir James H. (Kirkcaldy) | Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester) | Stanley, Albert (Staffs., W.) |
| Davies, Timothy (Lincs., Louth) | Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk Burghs) | Strauss, Edward A. (Southwark, West) |
| Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.) | Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J. | Sutherland, John E. |
| Davies, M. Vaughan- (Cardigan) | M'Callum, John M. | Tennant, Harold John |
| Dawes, J. A. | McKenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald | Toulmin, George |
| Delany, William | M'Laren, H. D. (Leices.) | Verney, Sir Harry |
| Denman, Hon. R. D. | M'Laren, Walter S. B. (Ches., Crewe) | Wadsworth, John |
| Devlin, Joseph | M'Micking, Major Gilbert | Ward, W. Dudley (Southampton) |
| Dewar, Sir J. A. (Inverness) | Marks, George Croydon | Waring, Walter |
| Dillon, John | Marshall, Arthur Harold | Warner, Sir Thomas Courtenay |
| Donelan, Captain A. | Mathias, Richard | Wason, Rt. Hon. E. (Clackmannan) |
| Doris, William | Meagher, Michal | Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney) |
| Duffy, William J. | Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.) | Watt, Henry A. |
| Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness) | Meehan, Patrick A. (Queen's Co.) | Webb, H. |
| Edwards, Enoch (Hanley) | Menzies, Sir Walter | White, Sir Luke (Yorks, E. R.) |
| Edwards, Sir Francis (Radnor) | Molloy, Michael | White, Patrick (Meath, North) |
| Edwards, John Hugh (Glamorgan, Mid) | Molteno, Percy Alport | Whittaker, Rt. Hon. Sir Thomas P. |
| Elibank, Rt. Hon. Master of | Montagu, Hon. E. S. | Whyte, A. F. |
| Esmonde, Dr. John (Tipperary, N.) | Morgan, George Hay | Williams, John (Glamorgan) |
| Esmonde, Sir Thomas (Wexford, N.) | Morrell, Philip | Williams, Penry (Middlesbrough) |
| Essex, Richard Walter | Morton, Alpheus Cleophas | Wilson, Hon. G. G. (Hull, W.) |
| Esslemont, George Birnie | Muldoon, John | Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton) |
| Falconer, James | Munro, R. | Wood, T. M-Kinnon (Glasgow) |
| Farrell, James Patrick | Munro-Ferguson, Rt. Hon. R. C. | Young, Samuel (Cavan, E.) |
| Fenwick, Charles | Murray, Capt. Hon. Arthur C. | Young, William (Perth, East) |
| Ffrench, Peter | Nolan, Joseph | Yoxall, Sir James Henry |
| Field, William | Norman, Sir Henry | |
| Fitzgibbon, John. | Norton, Capt. Cecil W. | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr. Illingworth and Mr. Gulland. |
| Flavin, Michael Joseph | Nugent, Sir Walter Richard | |
| Glanville, Harold James | O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) |
§ Original Question put.
790§ The Committee divided: Ayes, 217; Noes, 81.
791| Division No. 33.] | AYES. | [4.55. p.m. |
| Abraham, William (Dublin Harbour) | Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward | O'Dowd, John |
| Acland, Francis Dyke | Guest, Major Hon. C. H. C. (Pembroke) | O'Grady, James |
| Adamson, William | Guest, Hon. Frederick E. (Dorset, E.) | O'Kelly, Edward P. (Wicklow, W. J |
| Alden, Percy | Gwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway) | O'Malley, William |
| Allen, Arthur Acland (Dumbartonshire) | Haldane, Rt. Hon. Richard B. | O'Shaughnessy, P. J. |
| Allen, Charles P. (Stroud) | Harcourt, Rt. Hon. L. (Rossendale) | O'Shee, James John |
| Ashton, Thomas Gair | Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose) | O'Sullivan, Timothy |
| Baker, Joseph Allen (Finsbury, E.) | Hardle, J. Keir | Parker, James (Halifax) |
| Balfour, Sir Robert (Lanark) | Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N. E.) | Pearce, William (Limehouse) |
| Barlow, Sir John Emmott (Somerset) | Harwood, George | Pearson, Hon. Weetman H. M. |
| Barry, Redmond J. (Tyrene, N.) | Haslam, James (Derbyshire) | Pease, Rt. Hon. Joseph A. (Rotherham) |
| Beale, William Phipson | Havelock-Allan, Sir Henry | Phillips, John (Longford, S.) |
| Beauchamp, Edward | Hayden, John Patrick | Pickersgill, Edward Hare |
| Beck, Arthur Cecil | Hazleton, Richard (Galway, N.) | Pointer, Joseph |
| Benn, W. W. (T. Hamlets, S. Geo.) | Henderson, J. M. (Aberdeen, W.) | Power, Patrick Joseph |
| Boland, John Pius | Henry, Sir Charles Solomon | Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central) |
| Booth, Frederick Handel | Higham, John Sharp | Pringle, William M. R. |
| Bowerman, C. W. | Hinds, John | Radford, George Heynes |
| Brace, William | Hobhouse, Rt. Hon. Charles E. H. | Rainy, Adam Rolland |
| Brocklehurst, William B. | Holt, Richard Durning | Raphael, Sir Herbert Henry |
| Brunner, John F. L. | Howard, Hon. Geoffrey | Rea, Rt. Hon. Russell (South Shields) |
| Bryce, J. Annan | Hunter, W. (Govan) | Reddy, Michael |
| Burke, E. Haviland- | Isaacs, Sir Rufus Daniel | Redmond, John E. (Waterford) |
| Burns, Rt. Hon. John | Johnson, William | Redmond, William Archer (Tyrone, E.) |
| Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas | Jones, Sir D. Brynmor (Swansea) | Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln) |
| Buxton, Rt. Hon. S. C. (Poplar) | Jones, Edgar R. (Merthyr Tydvil) | Roberts, George H. (Norwich) |
| Byles, William Pollard | Jones Leif Stratten (Notts, Rushcliffe) | Roberts, Sir J. H. (Denbighs.) |
| Carr-Gomm, H. W. | Jones, William (Carnarvonshire) | Robertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradford) |
| Cawley, Sir Frederick (Prestwich) | Jones, W. S. Glyn- (T. H'mts, St. Geo.) | Robinson, Sydney |
| Chancellor, Henry George | Joyce, Michael | Roche, John (Galway, E.) |
| Chapple, Dr. William Allen | Kellaway, Frederick George | Roe, Sir Thomas |
| Clough, William | King, J. (Somerset, N.) | Rose, Sir Charles Day |
| Compton-Rickett, Rt. Hon. Sir J. | Lambert, George (Devon, S. Molton) | Rowlands, James |
| Condon, Thomas Joseph | Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade) | Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter |
| Corbett, A. Cameron | Lardner, James Carrige Rushe | Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland) |
| Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. | Law, Hugh A. | Seely, Col. Rt. Hon. J. E. B. |
| Cotton, William Francis | Lawson, Sir W. (Cumb'rid., Cockerm'th) | Sheehy, David |
| Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemeuth) | Leach, Charles | Sherwell, Arthur James |
| Crawshay-Williams, Eliot | Lough, Rt. Hon. Thomas | Simon, Sir John Allsebroek |
| Crooks, William | Lundon, Thomas | Smith, Albert (Lancs., Clitheroe) |
| Crumley, Patrick | Lyell, Charles Henry | Smith, H. B. L. (Northampton) |
| Dalziel, Sir James H. (Kirkcaldy) | Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester) | Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.) |
| Davies, Timothy (Lincs., Louth) | Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk Burghs) | Soares, Ernest Joseph |
| Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.) | Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J. | Stanley, Albert (Staffs., N. W.) |
| Davies, M. Vaughan- (Cardigan) | M'Callum, John M. | Strauss, Edward A. (Southwark, West) |
| Dawes, J. A. | McKenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald | Sutherland, John E. |
| Delany, William | M'Laren, H. D. (Leicss.) | Tennant, Harold John |
| Denman Hon. R. D. | M'Laren. Waiter S. B. (Ches., Crewe) | Toulmin, George |
| Devlin, Joseph | M'Micking, Major Gilbert | Verney, Sir Harry |
| Dewar, Sir J. A. | Marks, George Croydon | Wadsworth, John |
| Dillon, John | Marshall, Arthur Harold | Ward, W. Dudley (Southampton) |
| Donelan, Captain A. | Mathlas, Richard | Waring, Walter |
| Doris, William | Meagher, Michal | Warner, Sir Thomas Courtenay |
| Duffy, William J. | Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.) | Wason, Rt. Hon. E. (Clackmannan) |
| Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness) | Meehan, Patrick A. (Queen's Co.) | Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney) |
| Edwards, Enoch (Hanley) | Menzies, Sir Walter | Watt, Henry A. |
| Edwards, Sir Francis (Radnor) | Molloy, Michael | Webb, H. |
| Edwards, John Hugh (Glamorgan, Mid) | Molteno, Percy Alport | White, Sir Luke (Yorks, E. R.) |
| Elibank, Rt. Hon. Master of | Montagu, Hon. E. S. | White, Patrick (Meath, North) |
| Esmonde, Dr. John (Tipperary, N.) | Morgan, George Hay | Whittaker, Rt. Hon. Sir Thomas P. |
| Esmonde, Sir Thomas (Wexford, N.) | Morrell, Philip | Whyte, A. F. |
| Essex, Richard Walter | Morton, Alpheus Cleophas | Williams, John (Glamorgan) |
| Esslemont, George Birnie | Muldoon, John | Williams, Penry (Middlesbrough) |
| Falconer, James | Munro, R. | Wilson, Hon. G. G. (Hull, W.) |
| Farrell, James Patrick | Munro-Ferguson, Rt Hon. R. C. | Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton) |
| Fenwick, Charles | Murray, Capt. Hon. Arthur C. | Wood, T. M'Kinnon (Glasgow) |
| Ffrench, Peter | Nolan, Joseph | Young, Samuel (Cavan, E.) |
| Field, William | Norman, Sir Henry | Young, William (Perth, East) |
| Fitzgibbon, John | Norton, Capt. Cecil W. | Yoxall, Sir James Henry |
| Flavin, Michael Joseph | Nugent, Sir Walter Richard | |
| Glanville, Harold James | O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) | |
| Goldstone, Frank | O'Conner, John (Kildare, N.) | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr. Illingworth and Mr. Gulland. |
| Greenwood, Granville G. (Peterborough) | O'Doherty, Philip | |
| Greig, Col. J. W. | O'Donnell. Thomas | |
| NOES. | ||
| Anstruther-Gray, Major William | Baldwin, Stanley | Beckett, Hon. William Gervase |
| Archer-Shee, Major Martin | Banbury, Sir Frederick George | Benn, Arthur Shirley (Plymouth) |
| Bagot, Lieut.-Colonel J. | Barnston, Harry | Bennett-Goldney, Francis |
| Balcarres, Lord | Bathurst, Hon. Allen B. (Glou., E.) | Boscawen, Sackville T. Griffith |
| Boyton, James | Hill, Sir Clement L. | Rolleston, Sir John |
| Bridgeman, W. Clive | Hoare, Samuel John Gurney | Ronaldshay, Earl of |
| Burdett-Coutts, William | Hope, Harry (Bute) | Samuel, Sir Harry (Norwood) |
| Burn, Colonel C R. | Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield) | Sanderson, Lancelot |
| Cassel, Felix | Houston, Robert Paterson | Smith, F. E. (Liverpool, Walton) |
| Cecil, Lord Hugh (Oxford University) | Hunt, Rowland | Spear, John Ward |
| Clive, Percy Archer | Hunter, Sir Charles Rodk. (Bath) | Stanley, Hon. G. F. (Preston) |
| Clyde, James Avon | Jessel, Captain Herbert M. | Steel-Maitland, A. D. |
| Cooper, Richard Ashmole | Kebty-Fletcher, J. R. | Stewart, Gershom |
| Craig, Norman (Kent, Thanet) | Kerry, Earl of | Terrell, Henry (Gloucester) |
| Craik, Sir Henry | Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement | Thynne, Lord Alexander |
| Crichton-Stuart, Lord Ninian | Lee, Arthur Hamilton | Ward, A. S. (Herts, Watford) |
| Croft, Henry Page | Lyttelton, Rt. Hn. A. (S. Geo., Han. Sq.) | White, Major G. D. (Lancs, Southport) |
| Dairymple, Viscount | Mills, Hon. Charles Thomas | Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.) |
| Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- | Mount, William Arthur | Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E. R.) |
| Fleming, Valentine | Neville, Reginald J. N. | Weimer, Viscount |
| Fletcher, John Samuel (Hampstead) | Newton, Harry Kottingham | Wood, John (Stalybridge) |
| Forster, Henry William | Norton-Griffith, J | Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart- |
| Gibbs, George Abraham | Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William | Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George |
| Goldsmith, Frank | Peel, Hon. W. R. W. (Taunton) | Yate, Col. C. E. |
| Gordon, John | Pole-Carew, Sir R. | Younger, George |
| Goulding, Edward A. | Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel | |
| Harris, Henry Percy | Remnant, James Farquharson | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr Malcolm and Mr. Carlile. |
| Henderson, Major H. (Berks., Abingdon) | Rice, Hon. Walter Fitz-Uryan |
§ And, it being after Five of the clock, the Chairman left the Chair to make his Report to the House.
§ Resolutions to be reported upon Monday next; Committee to sit again upon Monday next: