Commons Sitting of 25 April 1911

Preamble
The House met at a Quarter before Three of the clock, Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.

PRIVATE BUSINESS.
Northampton Corporation Bill,
Read the third time, and passed.
Dunfermline Burgh Extension and Drainage Bill,
As amended, considered; to be read the third time.
Sligo Corporation Bill (by Order),
Consideration, as amended, deferred till Friday.
Charles Sheil's Charity Bill [Lords] (by Order),
Second Reading deferred till Tuesday next.
Sligo and Arigna Railway (Abandonment) Bill (by Order),
Second Reading deferred till Friday.
City of London (Various Powers) Bill [Lords] (by Order),
Second Reading deferred till Tuesday next.
Local Government Provisional Orders (No. 2) Bill,
Read a second time, and committed.

ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS.

  Persian Gulf (Trade in Arms).
  Captain WARINGasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (1) if he will state whether a British naval force has been despatched to the Persian Gulf to deal with a trade in arms by sea between Arabia or elsewhere and the coasts of Persia or of Baluchistan; if so, is that force instructed to deal with the trade by exercising in time of peace the rights of war, including the visit, search, and capture of vessels and property belonging to friendly states; and, if so, will such vessels and property be submitted to the judgment of any prize court
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  to decide whether they are good prizes or not, and (2) if he will state whether His Majesty's Government consulted the Law Officers of the Crown as to whether it is lawful to exercise during a time of peace acts of hostility, including the visit, search, and capture of vessels and property belonging to friendly states adjacent to the Persian Gulf.
  The UNDER-SECRETARY for FOREIGN AFFAIRS (Mr. McKinnon Wood): The importation of arms has been prohibited by various States bordering on the Persian Gulf, and it is under authority given to His Majesty's Government by those States that British ships are acting. There is no question of exercising rights of war or acts of hostility during a time of peace, and there is therefore no case for submission to a prize court or for reference to the law officers.

  Declaration of London
  Mr. BUTCHERasked whether the right hon. Gentleman's attention has been called to a statement made by the Right Hon. James Bryce, in the House of Commons on the 11th April, 1904, that food, by the general consent of nations, was not contraband of war unless it could be clearly proved to be intended for military or naval purposes; whether the Government have any reason to apprehend that any of the greater naval Powers will, when belligerents, declare food to be absolute contraband in the face of such general consent of nations; and whether, in view of this definite statement by a historian and jurist of recognised authority as to the necessity of proving a hostile destination in order to justify the seizure of food as contraband, reliance can be placed on the statement of the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs at the Baltic, on the 15th March, 1911, that the past practice has been to throw the burden of proof as to the destination of conditional contraband on the owners of the captured vessels or goods?
  Mr. McKINNON WOOD: I have referred to the whole speech made by Mr. Bryce on the 11th August (not April), 1904. I see no reason to modify, or add to, what I have said in answer to previous questions of the Hon. Member. I adhere to the statement referred to by the hon. Member in the last part of his question.
  Mr. BUTCHER: Does the hon. Member agree with the statement of Mr. Bryce as set forth in the question?
  Mr. McKINNON WOOD: To answer that question will require a discussion of the whole of Mr. Bryce's speech and sentences other than those quoted by the hon. and learned Member, and therefore it would be a matter of considerable length to argue. for which this is not the proper time.
  Mr. BUTCHER: Can the hon. Member refer to any part of the speech which contradicts the statement made in the question?
  Mr. McKINNON WOOD: That again is a matter for argument which I should have to enter into at length. There is nothing inconsistent in Mr. Bryce's speech with the position I have taken up.

  British Subjects.
  Sir WILLIAM BULLasked whether British subjects taking up residence in Germany or remaining in that country beyond a specified time are obliged to supply certain particulars concerning themselves to the police; whether he can say what the particulars thus required to be furnished are; and whether any complaints have been received from British subjects as to the inconvenience or loss caused to them by supplying such particulars to the German authorities?
  Mr. McKINNON WOOD: British subjects, in common with all other aliens sojourning in the German Empire for more than three weeks, are required to produce a passport as evidence of identity. The only cases of inconvenience occasioned to British subjects that have been brought to my notice have been due to their not having provided themselves with the required passport, which can always be obtained on producing the necessary evidence of their national status from the nearest British Consular Officer, at the cost of a few shillings.
  Mr. ERNEST JARDINE: Will the Foreign Secretary make arrangements to have British Consuls in Germany who can speak English? It is very awkward for English workmen to have to go to a German who cannot speak English.
  Mr. McKINNON WOOD: If the hon. Member will bring to my notice the name of any British Consul who cannot speak English I shall be glad.
  Sir WILLIAM BULLasked whether the right hon. Gentleman can say in what countries British subjects taking up residence
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  or remaining within the boundaries of the state for a certain period are required to register themselves with the police, or supply to the police or other authorities certain particulars with regard to themselves; and whether these requirements operating in the case of British subjects have given rise to any substantiated complaint as to inconvenience or loss?
  Mr. McKINNON WOOD: I am forwarding to the hon. Member a statement which has been prepared in the Foreign Office, and which I may add is also reproduced in the Continental Bradshaw's Guide, which sets out the requirements of foreign countries in regard to British subjects resorting thereto or residing therein. With the exception of occasional complaints by persons of the Jewish faith in regard to the passport requirements of the Russian Government, I am not aware of any substantial inconvenience or loss having been occasioned by the observance of the conditions imposed in foreign countries.

  Conference of Scottish Fishermen.
  Major ANSTRUTHER-GRAYasked whether the right hon. Gentleman had received an application from the Conference of Scottish fishermen asking him to receive a deputation; and whether he was able to grant this request at an early date; and, if so, could he state the day?
  Mr. McKINNON WOOD: The answer to the first and second part of the question is in the affirmative. I have made arrangements to receive to-day a deputation re presenting the line and drift net fishermen on the east coast of Scotland.
  Major ANSTRUTHER-GRAY: Will the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs be present?
  Mr. McKINNON WOOD: My right hon. Friend will not be present.

  Monroe Doctrine (President Taft's Statement).
  Mr. HUNTasked whether, in view of the fact that Mr. Taft stated that Americans would be willing to arbitrate on all questions, he can say whether America is willing to arbitrate about the Monroe doctrine and about the fortification and neutralisation of the Panama Canal?
  Mr. McKINNON WOOD: I can make no statement on the subject at present.
  Mr. HUNT: Is it not a fact that according to President Taft's view the American Senate have power to say whether a question shall go to arbitration or not?
  Mr. McKINNON WOOD: I think I have covered that point by the answer I have already given.

  British Consuls.
  Mr. HOUSTONasked if he would state whether British Consuls are under the direction and control of the Foreign Secretary or the President of the Board of Trade, and to which office do Consuls report on matters concerning shipping, trade, and commerce; whether it is the duty of the Consul to make representations or protests to foreign authorities without waiting for instructions, or whether they must communicate with London and receive instructions before doing so; whether he would state why no action had been taken by the British officials at Buenos Ayres to mitigate the loss and prejudice occasioned to British shipowners and merchants by reason of the extraordinary delay to British vessels in obtaining discharging berths in the docks at Buenos Ayres and delivering their goods to the consignees; and whether he was aware that this state of affairs had prevailed at Buenos Ayres for many months past, and, unless promptly remedied, would result in the partial or complete paralysis of British trade with the Argentine and consequent injury and prejudice to British working men?
  Mr. McKINNON WOOD: As regards the first part of the question, His Majesty's Consular Officers are under the direction and control of the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, to whom they report on all matters concerning shipping, trade, and commerce. They also, however, report to the Board of Trade on certain matters connected with the Merchant Shipping Acts. It is not the duty of a Consul to make representations or protests to foreign authorities except in urgent or exceptional cases. With regard to the latter part of the question, I must refer the hon. Member to the answer which I returned to the question asked by him on the 20th instant. If he will furnish me with full particulars of the complaints which have reached him, I will inquire into the matter.
  Mr. HOUSTON: I shall be very pleased to do so. May I ask whether the hon.
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  Member is aware that some British Ministers abroad, in contrast with German Ministers, seem to think it is infra dig. to give their attention to matters of this sort?
  Mr. McKINNON WOOD: No, Sir; I am certainly not aware of it.
  Mr. HOUSTON: I shall be pleased to give the hon. Member personal instances.

  Sir Eldon Gorst (Leave of Absence).
  Mr. DILLONasked if the Foreign Secretary can state for how long a period it is expected that Sir Eldon Gorst will be absent from Egypt; and who is in charge of the British Consulate during his absence?
  Mr. McKINNON WOOD: It is impossible to say precisely when Sir Eldon Gorst's health will. permit him to return to Egypt. During his absence, which I hope will not be a long one, His Majesty's Agency and Consulate-General will, in accordance with the usual practice, be in the charge of the Acting-Councillor.
  Mr. DILLON: Will the hon. Member give me the name of the Consulate-General in charge during Sir Eldon Gorst's absence?
  Mr. McKINNON WOOD: I will communicate with the hon. Member.
  Mr. DILLON: Is Sir Eldon Gorst in England now?
  Mr. McKINNON WOOD: Sir Eldon Gorst has left Egypt, but I do not know whether he has arrived in England.
  Mr. DILLONasked the right hon. Gentleman if he will state when Sir Eldon Gorst's Annual Report on the affairs of Egypt will be laid upon the Table?
  Mr. McKINNON WOOD: I hope to lay Sir Eldon Gorst's Report on the Table on 10th May.

  Bubonic Plague.
  Mr. MORRELLasked the Under-Secretary of State for India if he can say what was the total number of deaths due to bubonic plague in the United Provinces of Agra and Oudh in the months of February and March; and what practical steps are being taken by the Government of India in the matter?
  The UNDER-SECRETARY of STATE for INDIA (Mr. Montagu): The number returned for February was 43,508, and for March 95,884. The measures that are being taken are described in a statement recently made in the Legislative Council of the United Provinces, a copy of which I shall be happy to show the hon. Member. Reliance is mainly placed upon evacuation of dwellings and inoculation, together with rat destruction and disinfection of houses.
  Mr. MORRELL: Is it not a fact that this is one of the preventible diseases, and that before 1910 it was practically unknown in those provinces?
  Mr. MONTAGU: It is recrudescent. It is viewed very seriously by all those scientific and other authorities who were hopeful of a permanent diminution of cases of plague. Every effort is being made to stamp out the disease.
  Mr. MORRELL: Will it be necessary to postpone the Durbar celebration which is to take place in those provinces if those efforts are not successful?
  Mr. MONTAGU: No, I do not think so.

  Indian Factory and Textile Workers.
  Mr. J. WARDasked the hon. Member (1) whether any compensation was paid to the 4,018 workers who were injured by accident in the textile and other factories of India, or to the relatives of the 125 workers who were killed in such factories during 1909; and (2) whether any compensation was paid to the 294 workers who were injured by accident in the mines of India, or to the relatives of the 131 males and twenty-one females who were killed in such mines during 1909?
  Mr. MONTAGU: No compensation was paid, or became payable, under any enactment, as the Indian law contains no provisions similar to those of the Employers' Liability Act. I cannot say to what extent voluntary compensation has been paid, or damages for negligence recovered by suit.
  Mr. J. WARD: May we take it for granted that there is some law, if not on a type with our own, by which a native can secure compensation if he is injured through the negligence of his employer?
  Mr. MONTAGU: There is a good deal of difference between the Indian and the English law, but, if my hon. Friend wishes, I can explain it to him privately.

  Gibraltar (High-Angle Fire Guns).
  Captain WARINGasked why are the powerful high-angle fire guns specially designed for Gibraltar some ten years ago, as a result of the inquiry on the spot by Admiral Rawson and General Nicholson, not now in their assigned positions at that fortress; and where are they?
  The FINANCIAL SECRETARY to the WAR OFFICE (Mr. Acland): In consequence of changes of armament at Gibraltar made on the recommendation of General Owen's Committee certain high-angle fire guns prepared for that fortress were not mounted there, but have been used elsewhere. It is not in the interests of the public service to state where they have been mounted.

  Chatham Barracks.
  Mr. NEWDEGATEasked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether the officers of the 1st battalion of the South Wales Borderers are at present quartered at barracks at Chatham, which have been condemned over fifty years; whether the Royal Engineers have now in their office plans fifteen years old of new barracks which come up every year for consideration, and are every year postponed; whether the barracks in which the men of this battalion are quartered are well arranged and up to date; and whether he will arrange that the officers of this battalion shall have as good quarters as the men?
  Mr. ACLAND: This battalion is at present quartered in Chatham lower barracks. The question of rebuilding has been raised from time to time and in 1906 it was decided to retain the buildings in habitable condition for one battalion and to demolish those that were unfit. These barracks were formerly occupied by two battalions. Since 1906 the buildings retained for use have been repaired, and though not up to modern type are quite fit for occupation. Two condemned blocks have been demolished. The commanding officer's quarter has not adequate accommodation and re-provision elsewhere is now under consideration, but there has never been any question of the single officers' quarters not being suitable, and no alterations are proposed.
  Mr. ASHLEY: Can the hon. Gentleman say how many single-room married quarters for non-commissioned officers there are in the barracks?
  Mr. ACLAND: I should like notice of that question.

  War Office (Messing Adviser).
  Captain CLIVEasked the reasons for the creation of a new appointment described in Army Estimates as retired officer employed as messing adviser at the War Office; what are the new duties to be performed by this officer; why the total cost is put down at £800, though the salary is to be only £300, besides pension; and who is to be the first holder of the appointment?
  Mr. ACLAND: I am not in a position to add anything to the answer I gave to a similar question on the 5th of this month.
  Captain CLIVE: Can the hon. Gentleman say when the name of the officer will be announced?
  Mr. ACLAND: The name will be announced in due course. I cannot give the date.
  Captain CLIVE: Will he give his whole time to the office?
  Mr. ACLAND: I think so; yes.

  Investiture of the Prince of Wales.
  Mr. ASHLEYasked whether the Territorials who will be on duty at Carnarvon at the investiture of the Prince of Wales are to receive pay; and what allowances will be granted to them?
  Mr. ACLAND: The arrangements for employing the Territorial Force on the occasion in question are now under consideration, and I am not therefore able at present to make any statement on the subject.
  Mr. ASHLEY: When will you be in a position to do so?
  Mr. ACLAND: I will let the hon. Member know.

  Army Horses.
  MARQUESS of TULLIBARDINEasked what is the number of policemen in Ireland who are qualified to examine a horse for soundness or for fitness for military purposes; and how the inspection is to be carried out in those districts where the police are not experts?
  Mr. ACLAND: As my right hon. Friend pointed out to the Noble Lord in the Debate on the Army Annual Bill, it is proposed that the preparation of the necessary lists of horses in Ireland shall
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  be carried out entirely by the military authorities in that country, after first obtaining the authority of the Lord Lieutenant. No question therefore of the qualification of policemen for this duty arises.
  MARQUESS of TULLIBARDINE: Is it not specially provided in the Army Annual Act that the Irish Constabulary will be responsible for the return, and is it not a fact that I brought forward an Amendment suggesting that the military authorities might be allowed to do it?
  Mr. ACLAND: My recollection is that my right hon. Friend's statement was the direct contrary to that stated by the Noble Lord.
  Mr. JOHN O'CONNOR: May I ask the hon. Gentleman if he is aware that the constabulary in Ireland are usually recruited from the farming class, and that in consequence their training is considerable, and they are the best judges of horseflesh in the country?
  Mr. ACLAND: I think that very likely may be so.
  MARQUESS of TULLIBARDINEasked in view of the fact that the constabulary in Ireland are to be the only authority for drawing up the census and classifying horses in Ireland for military purposes, if the War Office has received assurances, and from whom, that, in the event of the constabulary being under the control of a separate legislature, permission will be given to the Constabulary to carry out this task?
  Mr. ACLAND: The police authority in Ireland for the purposes of the Army Act is the Lord Lieutenant. The assumption upon which the Noble Lord's question is based is erroneous, and the reply to the question is therefore in the negative.
  Mr. JOHN O'CONNOR: What connection is there between the judging of horseflesh and Home Rule for Ireland?
  Mr. ACLAND: I cannot give an answer to that.
  MARQUESS of TULLIBARDINE: May I ask whether there are two horse schemes for Ireland, one given by the Under-Secretary and the other by the Secretary of State for War?
  Mr. ACLAND: The answer I have given is in accordance with all the statements made on the subject.
  MARQUESS of TULLIBARDINEasked whether, under the new horse scheme the general officer commanding having received his authority from the Territorial Association, is responsible to the association; and, if not, to whom is he to be responsible?
  Mr. ACLAND: The general officer commanding-in-chief will place the proper officers under his command at the disposal of the county associations for the purposes of the horse census. He is responsible to the Army Council. My right hon. Friend fully explained the situation during the course of the Debate on the Army (Annual) Bill,
  MARQUESS of TULLIBARDINE: May I ask if the Territorial Association does not delegate its power to the general officer commanding-in-chief, who therefore must be a subordinate?
  Mr. ACLAND: No, I think not. The scheme will be administered by sensible people in a sensible way, and I do not think any of these difficulties will, as a matter of fact, arise.
  MARQUESS of TULLIBARDINE: May I ask whether, under those circumstances, it would not be better to eliminate the Territorial Associations altogether instead of having divided control?
  Mr. ACLAND: I have nothing to add to what was said very fully in the Debate.
  MARQUESS of TULLIBARDINEasked in view of the fact that civilians may be employed under the new horse scheme, and will be subject to discipline under the general officer commanding, under what regulation will they come and to what punishments will they be liable; and will they have the right of appeal to the delegating and apparently superior authority, the Territorial Association?
  Mr. ACLAND: The civilians who may be appointed by the county associations will act under the instructions of the associations, and, if found unsatisfactory, will doubtless be removed from their appointments by the associations.
  MARQUESS of TULLIBARDINE: Are these civilians to be appointed by the general officer commanding-in-chief?
  Mr. ACLAND: No; they will be appointed by the association.
  MARQUESS of TULLIBARDINE: Is the association to appoint people as well as the general officer commanding-in-chief?
  Mr. ACLAND: Yes; the two authorities will act in co-operation, as I have said.
  MARQUESS of TULLIBARDINEasked whether Territorial, Infantry, and cyclist adjutants are included in the list of officers required to inspect horses under the new remount scheme?
  Mr. ACLAND: Yes, Sir; if they are suitably qualified for the purpose.

  Woolwich and Sandhurst (Prize Cadetships).
  Mr. SANDYSasked how many prize cadetships are to be awarded to candidates for entrance to Woolwich and Sandhurst, respectively, in November next?
  Mr. ACLAND: It is proposed to offer five prize cadetships at Woolwich and fifteen at Sandhurst in November next.

  Duke of York's Royal Military School.
  Mr. SANDYSasked at what age boys enter and leave the Duke of York's Royal Military School; what proportion enter the Army; when the annual report is issued; and whether it would be possible to have this report printed, in order that information might be available as to the effects of the military training on the boys?
  Mr. ACLAND: Boys enter the school between the ages of nine and eleven, and leave at the age of fourteen, except those boys, thirty in number, who as study boys, remain on with a view to becoming students in training for Army School-masterships, and a few who are employed in the band who in due course pass on into the Army. About eighty per cent. of the boys join the Army. No annual report on the school is issued, but I shall be glad to send the hon. Gentleman information on any point which he desires to consider.

  Canterbury (Old Park).
  Mr. BENNETT-GOLDNEYasked the Under-Secretary of State for War, whether the military authorities have diverted and closed certain public footpaths across lands known as the Old Park, situated in the county of Canterbury, to the inconvenience not only of the citizens of Canterbury, but to the inhabitants of the port of Fordwich and the neighbouring villages in the adjacent county of Kent; and whether, as this encroachment is an infringement of the ancient privileges of the citizens of Canterbury and a curtailment of the inalienable rights of the

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  public, he will give immediate instructions to have the present obstructions removed, so that this source of annoyance may not be allowed to develop into a breach of the peaceful relations between the civil and military populations which the civil authorities are so anxious to maintain?
  Mr. ACLAND: I am making inquiries and will inform the hon. Member of the result of these inquiries in due course.

  Army Manœuvres (Supply of Oats to Scots Greys).
  Mr. CHARLES BATHURSTasked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether he is aware that no payment has as yet been made to Mr. Robert White, of Bill-hay Farm, near Tisbury, in the county of Wilts, in respect of six sacks of oats sold to the Government in August last for the use of the Scots Greys, who were then quartered at his farm during the manœuvres; that no reply has been sent to any of his letters respectfully demanding payment of what is due to him; and whether it is proposed to leave this debt undischarged, owing to the neglect of some formality on the part of the vendor or for any other reason?
  Mr. ACLAND: Inquiries shall be made at once.

  Army Clothing.
  Colonel YATEasked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether, considering that the report on clothing, submitted by officers commanding units, refers solely to the cut, material, workmanship, and wear of such clothing, he will call for a separate report on the pattern of the present field service clothing with special reference to the shortness and tightness of the jacket, and the difficulty the men have in firing when lying down and in all positions where full freedom of the arms is necessary, with a view to the consideration of the question as to whether a field service jacket of a looser and easier pattern, with expanding seams at the back and long enough to cover the seat and the fork, would be preferable to the one now in use?
  Mr. ACLAND: In addition to the annual report on clothing, general officers commanding submit annually a special report under Paragraph 63 of the King's Regulations. In no case has fault been found with the pattern or specification of the service dress jacket. The regulations as regards fitting were explained to the hon.
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  and gallant Member in reply to a question put by him on 7th March last, but the Army Council is considering whether the necessity for securing unrestricted freedom of movement under the circumstances mentioned can be in any way emphasised in these regulations.

  New Hebrides (Illegal Recruiting of Women).
  Major ANSTRUTHER-GRAYasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he has received any reports of illegal recruitment of women at Santo and Tanna, or other islands in the New Hebrides, during the last twelve months; and, if so, what steps he has taken to put a stop to the cruelties complained of?
  The SECRETARY of STATE for the COLONIES (Mr. Harcourt): I understand that there have been cases of improper recruitment in the New Hebrides, but I have not received any report as to the number of such cases during the last twelve months. I will ask the new High Commissioner to report fully on the matter as soon as he is able to visit the New Hebrides.
  Sir GILBERT PARKER: May I ask if it is not the case under the Convention between France and England that France may recruit in the island women and children under their own regulations without consideration for any regulations this country may pass or approve?
  Mr. HARCOURT: In matters of international agreement of that sort I should like to have notice before I answer.

  Afforestation (Great Britain).
  Mr. EDMUND HARVEYasked the Secretary to the Treasury how long the scheme for afforestation in Great Britain, prepared by the Board of Agriculture, has been before the Treasury for consideration; and at what date information upon the scheme will be communicated to the House?
  The FINANCIAL SECRETARY to the TREASURY (Mr. Hobhouse): A Memorandum dealing with Forestry in England and Wales was forwarded by the Board of Agriculture and Fisheries to the Treasury on the 17th February last. I am unable at present to make any statement as to the details of the scheme, which is now being considered by the Development Commissioners, to whom the Treasury sent it on the 24th March.
  Mr. WEDGWOOD: May I ask whether the Development Commissioners have acquired any land for afforestation or not?
  Mr. HOBHOUSE: I do not think that arises out of the question, but I will make some inquiries.

  Income Tax Collection.
  Mr. STAVELEY-HILLasked what was the amount of interest lost to the Imperial Exchequer by the postponement of payment of Income Tax by eight railway companies on the suggestion of the Inland Revenue?
  Mr. HOBHOUSE: None, Sir.
  Mr. HARRY LAWSON: May I ask whether, in a question of this sort, there is ever any surcharge involved on the officers implicated?
  Mr. HOBHOUSE: No; I see no reason why there should be.

  Development Commission (Fife County Council).
  Major ANSTRUTHER-GRAYasked the Secretary to the Treasury whether his Department had received an application for a grant out of the Development Fund towards the bridge at Guardbridge; and, if so, whether he could state the decision of the Commissioners with regard to it?
  Mr. HOBHOUSE: No such application has been received in the Treasury, but I understand that the St. Andrew's District Committee of the County Council of Fife have applied to the Road Board for a grant towards the cost of erecting a new bridge over the River Eden at Guard-bridge, estimated to cost about £10,000, and that the Board have promised a grant of £2,000 subject to the approval of the Treasury.
  Major ANSTRUTHER-GRAY: Am I to understand that if we apply for a grant from the Development Fund it would also be considered, or are we precluded from doing so?
  Mr. HOBHOUSE: I could not answer that without notice, but I do not see why the district committee should be precluded.
  Mr. CHIOZZA MONEY: Does not that show that the Development Bill applies to industry as well as to agriculture?
  Mr. HOBHOUSE: I do not think I have ever denied that. Every scheme must be considered on its merits.

  Civil Service Assistant Clerks (New Class).
  Mr. SNOWDENasked the number of assistant clerks (new class) who have died since the beginning of 1908; and the number who have left the service on account of ill-health.
  Mr. HOBHOUSE: I fear I cannot furnish the information desired.

  Admiralty Clerks.
  Mr. SNOWDENasked if a reply has been sent to the memorial of Class 1 clerks in the Admiralty, asking to be treated in the matter of salary the same as the Class 1 clerks in the office of the Secretary to the Admiralty; if so, what is the nature of that reply; and, if the request has been refused, on what grounds is the differential treatment justified?
  Mr. HOBHOUSE: The considerations affecting the clerks in the secretary's office do not apply in the same degree to clerks in the other Departments of the Admiralty.
  Mr. SNOWDEN: Will the right hon. Gentleman state what are the considerations in this case?
  Mr. HOBHOUSE: That would necessitate a description of the work of the various departments, and the information could not be given in an answer to a question.
  Mr. SNOWDENasked if the work performed by the Class 1 clerks in the office of the Secretary to the Admiralty is of a more important nature than that done by Class 1 clerks in the other departments of the Admiralty; if not, why is a difference made in the salaries of clerks of the same class in the several departments of the Admiralty; and if it is intended to maintain this difference?
  Mr. McKENNA: I presume my hon. Friend's question has reference to the recent restoration to the Junior Class 1 clerks in the Secretary's Department of the initial scale of salary of £200–£500. Only two departments of the Admiralty are at the present time being recruited from the Class 1 examination, namely, the Secretariat and the Transport Department, and in their case the undoubted superior importance of the work in the

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  Secretary's Department and the consequent greater responsibility of the directing staff, justify the distinction.
  Mr. SNOWDEN: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that last week the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty stated that the only reason why the first class clerks' salaries had been raised was owing to the fact that a similar rise had taken place in two other departments?
  Mr. McKENNA: I did not see the answer to the question, but I shall be happy to discuss it with the hon. Member.

  National United. Insurance Society, Glasgow.
  Mr. HAYDENasked whether the National United Insurance Society, of 65, West Regent Street, Glasgow, can show any security for policy-holders; where the money providing this security is invested; how much money has this society invested in securities; and how much money it has to its credit in the Clydesdale Bank?
  Mr. HOBHOUSE: According to the society's statutory return for 1910 the security for policy-holders would appear to have consisted of:—

  (a) A sum of £281 17s. 5d. in the Clydesdale Bank.

  (b) Office furniture and stationery and a small sum of cash in hand.

  (c) A sum of £356 5s. 5½d., stated to be owing by members for premiums.

  (d) Capital on shares issued but not yet paid amounting to £1,712 5s.

  The return does not show any investments.

  Small Holdings and Allotments.
  Mr. ERNEST JARDINEasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Agriculture if he will grant a Return of allotments and small holdings in Great Britain, in continuation of Return Cd. 6144, issued in 1890, so that it may be seen what is the number of allotments in Great Britain, and not merely, as now, the number which are held or obtained by local authorities?
  The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the BOARD of AGRICULTURE (Sir E. Strachey): I understand that the Return to which the hon. Member refers entailed an expenditure of some £3,000. It is doubtful if the value of a new Return would be considered to justify such an expenditure, but I will require.
  Mr. MORRELLasked if the Government proposed to make any fresh arrangements to facilitate and improve the working of the Small Holdings Act?
  Sir E. STRACHEY: The President of the Board proposes, with the concurrence of the Treasury, to increase the number of Small Holdings Commissioners from two to eight, so as to enable him to take active steps to assist and press the County Councils to satisfy the outstanding demand for small holdings, and to put in force the provisions of the law in cases of default, where necessary. The Commissioners will possess the full statutory powers conferred upon them by the Act of 1908. A group of counties will be assigned to each of them, and they will be stationed in such towns or places as the President may from time to time select. Their appointments will be of a permanent character. In certain districts inspectors will be stationed to assist the Commissioners in the discharge of their duties. The President has also submitted to the Treasury certain proposals to enable him to press forward the organisation of agricultural co-operative societies and especially credit and insurance societies for the purpose of meeting the requirements of small holders. He hopes to be in a position to make an announcement with regard to these proposals in the course of a few days.
  Mr. PEEL: Will the hon. Gentleman state if these new officers are to be appointed as a result of examination or by patronage?
  Sir E. STRACHEY: I have nothing to add to the statement I have already made.
  Mr. PEEL: May I press for an answer on that point?
  Mr. SPEAKER: The hon. Gentleman must give notice.
  Viscount HELMSLEY: Will the hon. Baronet state whether the salaries of these new Commissioners have been voted by this House or will they come before the House?
  Sir E. STRACHEY: Of course, the salaries will come at the proper time before this House. I have stated already that Treasury sanction has been obtained.
  Mr. WEDGWOOD: Have the centres of the districts been fixed? If not, will, the hon. Baronet see that as soon as they are

  1581
  public notification is given of the address of the Commissioners so that intending applicants may get at them as quickly as possible?
  Sir E. STRACHEY: As I have said the Commissioner will be stationed in such towns or places as the President may think fit.
  Sir GILBERT PARKER: Will the Commissioners have power to take into consideration the heavy cost of administration on the small holders under the Act?
  Sir E. STRACHEY: They will have the same powers as the two Commissioners have at the present moment.
  Mr. ROWLANDS: Are we to understand that these new Commissioners are to be in the same independent position as the present two Commissioners.
  Sir E. STRACHEY: Yes, they will be in exactly the same position: they are appointed under the same section of the Act.
  Several other hon. Members rose.
  Mr. SPEAKER: I would call attention to the fact that there are many more questions on the Paper.
  Mr. MORRELL: Shall we be permitted to raise this question on the Civil Service Estimates?
  Mr. SPEAKER: I shall not then be in the Chair.
  Mr. MORRELLasked the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster if he will state what was the total amount of agricultural land belonging to the Duchy; and what portion was let in holdings of fifty acres or less in the years 1904, 1907, and 1910, respectively, with the percentage in each case?
  The CHANCELLOR of the DUCHY of LANCASTER (Mr. Joseph Pease): The total amount of agricultural land belonging to His Majesty, in right of his Duchy of Lancaster, in the years 1904, 1907, and 1910, and the portion let in holdings of fifty acres or less in those years, with the percentages which the latter bore to the former is approximately as follows:—

  Year.

  Total acreage.

  Acreage let in holdings of 50 acres or less.

  Percentage.

  1904

  …

  26,433

  …

  2,117

  …

  8

  1907

  …

  21,518

  …

  2,150

  …

  10

  1910

  …

  21,696

  …

  2,700

  …

  12.44

  A considerable number of gardens attached to cottage lettings are not included in this return.
  Mr. CHARLES BATHURSTasked whether the Government will demonstrate their sympathy with the small holdings movement by converting all farms falling vacant within the Duchy of Lancaster into such holdings or by offering them to the councils of the counties in which they are situate, to enable them to satisfy some of their unprovided applicants?
  Mr. JOSEPH PEASE: I cannot promise to convert all farms falling vacant, which are the property of His Majesty, in right of his Duchy of Lancaster, into small holdings, or in every case to offer such farms to the county councils of the counties in which they are situate; but, as a matter of fact, pursuant to the established practice of the Duchy to encourage small holdings, all farms which have become vacant in recent years, and which are suitable for small holdings, have either been let direct to small holders or have been offered to county councils, and my intention is to continue this policy.
  Captain FABER: Would the right hon. Gentleman say how many farms in the Duchy have been let in that manner?
  Mr. JOSEPH PEASE: All I can speak of is what has been done during my own tenure of office. Last year I was able to offer a large farm of 324 acres and another of 256 acres.
  Captain FABER: Were they taken advantage of?
  Mr. JOSEPH PEASE: I think not,
  Mr. C. BATHURST: Do I understand that the right hon. Gentleman works through the county councils wherever possible?
  Mr. JOSEPH PEASE: I have made it a point to communicate with the county council whenever I have had a farm vacant which was suitable for small holdings.
  Mr. MORRELL: May I ask whether the right hon. Gentleman will in future offer to one of the new Small Holdings Commissioners rather than to the county councils?
  Mr. JOSEPH PEASE: We keep in touch with the Board of Agriculture.

  Bee Disease.
  Captain FABERasked what steps the Board of Agriculture is taking to stamp

  1583
  out the Isle of Wight bee disease, and whether the Board is prepared to issue regulations or literature on the subject?
  Sir E. STRACHEY: I would refer the hon. Member to the answer I gave to a similar question on the 3rd instant. Until these investigations have been more successful than has yet been the case no administrative action on the part of the Board is possible, but the Board are in communication with beekeepers on the subject, and any serviceable information which can be obtained will be issued forthwith.
  Captain FABER: Is there any ground for thinking that the disease comes from the pollen of the flower?
  Sir E. STRACHEY: It has been suggested, but there is no absolute information.
  Mr. CHARLES BATHURST: If the Board have no special information cannot they take some steps to check the spread of the disease?
  Sir E. STRACHEY: Certainly, we will do so if we find it possible.

  Imported Milk.
  Captain FABERasked whether a large quantity of milk had been imported from the Continent lately into London and sold as new milk, and in that case how he proposes that the cows from which the milk is drawn should be kept under inspection, as is done in this country; whether a considerable amount of milk is remanufactured from condensed milk and sold as new; and, if so, whether he can have this milk labelled?
  Sir E. STRACHEY: The answer is in the affirmative to the first part of the question. The second part should be addressed by my right hon. Friend to the President of the Local Government Board. Inquiry is being made as to the practice of remanufacture of condensed milk, and I should be glad to receive any information which the hon. Member may possess with regard to it.
  Captain FABER: What use is it to have inspectors in this country if foreign milk is imported without the cows being inspected?
  Mr. SPEAKER: That is a question of an argumentative character.

  Towcester Poaching Conviction.
  Mr. KELLAWAYasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if his attention has been called to the case of George Townsend, who was charged at the Towcester divisional petty sessions with a breach of the Poaching Prevention Act, and with being in possession of a gun and live cartridges at Towcester on 14th March, for which alleged offence he was fined 30s. and his gun confiscated; if the evidence showed that Townsend was stopped by the police whilst cycling along the high road, on the ground that he had a gun on his cycle, had mud on his trousers, and was followed by a mongrel collie dog; if Townsend proved that he had a licence to carry a gun, and a witness for the defence declared that he had been with defendant the whole time and they had not left the high road; and if, in view of these facts, he proposes to take any steps in the case?
  The SECRETARY of STATE for the HOME DEPARTMENT (Mr. Churchill): I have communicated with the justices, but I regret that I have not yet received their reply. I should be glad if my hon. Friend would repeat his question in a day or two. I have telegraphed to expedite matters.

  Weekly Rest-Day (Police Fire Brigades).
  Mr. JOWETTasked the Home Secretary if he is aware that the Police (Weekly Best-Day) Act does not apply to the members of permanent fire brigades which exist in about a dozen of the largest towns, excepting London, in the United Kingdom, whilst the members of all police fire brigades, whose duties correspond with theirs, are affected by the Act in question; and if he will take any steps to secure equality of treatment for all firemen in this matter?
  Mr. CHURCHILL: The Police (Weekly Rest-Day) Act applies only to members of county or borough police forces. I do not see my way to introduce proposals for legislation in the sense suggested by the hon. Member. The matter is one which should be brought to the notice of the local authorities who have the control and are responsible for the maintenance of the fire brigades.

  Teamsters' Long Hours (Bradford).
  Mr. JOWETTasked the Home Secretary if he had read the report, sent to him by the Member for West Bradford,

  1585
  of a case tried at Bingley, Yorkshire, which stated that a teamster employed by Mr. Henry North, of Bradford, was fined for being asleep in charge of horses and a waggon, when he had been on the road for twenty-six and a half hours; and if, having regard to the opinion of the magistrates expressed in court that the owners of the horses are more to blame than the drivers in these cases, he would now deal with this matter by legislation or otherwise?
  Mr. CHURCHILL: Yes, I have read the report which the hon. Member has been good enough to send me, and which the inquiries I have made show to be substantially correct. I entirely agree with the opinion expressed by the magistrates, and think it desirable that there should be power to deal with the employer instead of the driver in such cases; but as regards the question of legislation, I am afraid I can add nothing to the answer which I gave to the hon. Member on the 11th instant.

  Welsh Church Endowments.
  Sir WILLIAM BULLasked the Home Secretary whether his attention had been drawn to the fact that the official return of Welsh Church Endowments laid before the Royal Commission on the Church in Wales shows that more than one-half of the benefices in Wales would have been deprived of the totality of their endowments by the Government's Welsh Disestablishment Bill of 1909; and whether he will give an undertaking that in any future Government Bill for the Disestablishment of the Church in Wales such deprivation of endowments shall not take place?
  Mr. CHURCHILL: The return in question distinguishes income from private benefactions since 1703 from all other income; and probably the hon. Member has in mind the fact that in rather more than half of the whole number of benefices mentioned in the Return there is no income from benefactions since 1703. Under the Established Church (Wales) Bill, 1909, however, the line between private benefactions preserved or not preserved to the Church was drawn at 1662, and not 1703. The difference, though no doubt small, is in favour of the Church. I cannot give any undertaking as regards a future Bill.

  Juvenile Offenders (Manchester).
  Mr. HAWORTHasked the Home Secretary how many boys between the ages of
  1586
  sixteen and eighteen years were convicted and dealt with otherwise than by fine or imprisonment who, if committed, would have passed through Strangeways Prison, Manchester, during the year 1910?
  Mr. CHURCHILL: I have now obtained the information in as complete a form as possible, and have sent it to my hon. Friend.

  Trachoma (Importation by Aliens).
  Mr. HUNTasked the Home Secretary whether, in view of the fact that Dr. Eason, the senior ophthalmic surgeon to Guy's Hospital stated this month that less than a quarter of the number of aliens who came into this country in 1910 were rejected for eye disease (trachoma) than was the case in 1909, and that this was because the examination was relaxed, he will make the regulations sufficiently strong and the examination so careful that no more aliens shall be permitted to enter this country and spread blindness amongst our own people?
  Mr. CHURCHILL: It is not the fact that the medical inspection under the Aliens Act has been in any way relaxed in 1910; and Dr. Eason did not say that it had been. He merely inferred that it might be so from the reduction in the number of rejections for trachoma in 1910 as compared with 1909, and he now admits that his inference was wrong. The real reasons for this reduction are, firstly, that in consequence, no doubt, of the rejections in previous years the number of aliens suffering from trachoma who arrived on immigrant ships decreased; and, secondly, that the figures for 1909 were swollen through the arrival in special circumstances of numbers of Armenians and Syrians who were suffering from the disease. The hon. Member will find information on the latter point on page 8 of the Annual Report for 1909 of the Inspector under the Act.

  Mormon Missionaries (Expulsion from Germany).
  Mr. HOUSTONasked the Home Secretary whether he has yet received any information from His Majesty's Ambassador at Berlin as to the expulsion of Mormon missionaries from Germany; and, if not, whether he can state when he expects to receive the information?
  Mr. CHURCHILL: No information on the point has yet been received from His

  1587
  Majesty's Ambassador at Berlin, but the matter is being carried forward, and I expect to learn at a very early date the result of the inquiries which are being made.
  Mr. HOUSTON: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that in various parts of the country, notably in the North, the spirit and temper of the people is rapidly rising, and may result in rioting and conflict with the police unless prompt steps are taken?
  Mr. SPEAKER: That does not arise out of a question about Mormonism in Germany.

  Chinese Seamen (Liverpool).
  Mr. HOUSTONasked the Home Secretary whether he has yet received any reports from the Chief Constables of Liverpool, Bootle, and Birkenhead, or any one of them, with regard to Chinese aliens; and, if so, will he state the nature of the reports or report, or alternately issue it or them to Members of this House; or, if he has not yet received any reports, can he state when he expects to receive them; whether he can yet state how many, if any, Chinese women are in Liverpool; and, if none, whether the Chinamen in Liverpool are celibates or misogynists?
  Mr. CHURCHILL: As I promised the hon. Member, I consulted the Liverpool police with reference to the 755 Chinese seamen mentioned in his questions of the 12th and 19th instant. I have now received a report from the Chief Constable, from which it appears that there are no grounds for supposing that any of these seamen were really passengers seeking to gain admission to this country through an evasion of the Aliens Act; nor in the course of administration of that Act have any grounds for such a suspicion come to my knowledge. I may say that during the year covered by the hon. Member's figures the number of Chinese seamen engaged for outward voyages at Liverpool was much larger than the number who were paid off or deserted there; and in the course of his report, the Chief Constable states that, apart from seamen, the number of whom ashore varies, of course, from day to day, the number of Chinese resident in Liverpool is estimated at 286 men and three women, and the number resident in Birkenhead is estimated at 63.
  Mr. HOUSTON: Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether the signing on of
  1588
  so many Chinamen in British ships does not interfere with British labour?
  Mr. CHURCHILL: That is a question I had to deal with when I was at the Board of Trade, and I was under the impression that the language test that we then instituted or enforced would have a considerable effect in reducing the number of Chinamen engaged in these waters, and serving on ships cruising in these waters, but any further questions on that point should be addressed to my right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade.
  Mr. HOUSTON: Can he say whether the language test has any effect in reducing the number of Chinese?
  Mr. CHURCHILL: I think that is a question which should be put to the President of the Board of Trade.

  Food Prices (United States and United Kingdom).
  Mr. STAVELEY-HILLasked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware that in the recent Report on the cost of living in the United States the comparison of food prices is between those of 1909 in the United States and 1905 in the United Kingdom; that owing to the rise-in food prices in recent years the comparison is misleading and inaccurate; and whether he will issue a Supplementary-Return showing the food prices in the United Kingdom in 1909, to permit a proper comparison being drawn between the prices of food in the two countries?
  The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the BOARD of TRADE (Mr. Tennant): If the hon. Member will be so good as to look at page v. and pages lxiii. to lxvii. of the Report, he will see that due allowance has been made for the rise in prices between 1905 and 1909.

  Labour Exchanges.
  Mr. SNOWDENasked how many persons were provided with employment by the labour exchanges in connection with the recent Census enumeration?
  Mr. TENNANT: One hundred and two-persons were engaged through the labour exchanges in connection with the recent Census.
  Mr. MARTIN: How many of these persons were already in receipt of permanent salaries, either from the Government or local authorities, and in how many cases were these permanent officials appointed?
  Mr. SPEAKER: The hon. Member must give notice of a question of that sort.
  Mr. LANSBURYasked the President if he is now in a position to frame regulations for establishing a qualifying examination for all candidates applying for appointments under the Labour Exchanges Act?
  Mr. TENNANT: As has been previously stated, the Board of Trade are carefully considering the question of the method of appointment to posts under the Labour Exchanges Act, but I am not at present in a position to make any statement on the subject.

  Marking of Goods (Country of Origin).
  Mr. HUNTasked the President whether he is aware that German manufacturers, in recommending their goods to merchants in this country, state that it is not necessary to have their goods marked made in Germany; and whether he will cause inquiries to be made and put a stop to any practices of this kind?
  Mr. TENNANT: I have no official information as to the practice referred to in the question. If the hon. Member will supply me with information as to specific cases the Board of Trade will be in a position to consider whether the alleged statements do or do not suggest an evasion of the Merchandise Marks Act. No doubt the hon. Member is aware that the Act does not require imported goods in all cases to be marked with their country of origin.

  Lady Katherine Leveson's School (Temple Balsall).
  Mr. BOTTOM LEYasked the President of the Board of Education whether the present system of providing drinking water in buckets for the children at the Temple School, Temple Balsall, is to be allowed as a permanent arrangement; and whether the Board are satisfied that the water now supplied to the scholars, which is said to come from a well below the level of the churchyard, is sufficiently pure to be used for drinking purposes?
  The PARLIAMENTARY SECRTEARY to the BOARD of EDUCATION (Mr. Trevelyan): I understand the question to refer to a school known as Lady Katherine Leveson's School, Temple Balsall. The question of water supply has been under consideration in connection with plans for the improvement of the premises. My right hon. Friend is making further inquiry into the matter.
  Mr. BOTTOMLEYasked the President of the Local Government Board whether his attention has been called to the repeated condemnation of the water supplied by the trustees of Lady Katherine Leveson to the almshouses, council school, etc., at the Temple, Temple Balsall, and to the fact that the council school has had the water supply cut off for about a year on account of it being condemned by the medical authority; and, if so, whether he proposes to take any action in the matter?
  The PRESIDENT of the LOCAL GOVERNMENT BOARD (Mr. Burns): I have been in communication with the local authority, and I understand that the question of providing a proper water supply is now receiving the serious consideration of a special committee which they have appointed. I will not lose sight of the matter.

  Census (England and Scotland).
  Mr. BUTCHERasked the President of the Local Government Board whether his attention has been called to the fact that the figures as to population obtained by the recent Census in regard to nearly every city, town, village, and parish in Scotland have already been published in the local newspapers, whereas similar statistics of population are being withheld from publication in England; whether he will state what reason exists for this difference of procedure in England and Scotland respectively; and whether, having regard to the public interest felt in these questions and the general desire that these statistics should be made known at the earliest opportunity, he will give directions that the same early publicity shall be given to these statistics in England which has been given in Scotland?
  Mr. BURNS: I presume that the Scottish figures have been communicated to the Press by the local officials. The officials in this country were instructed that they were not at liberty to divulge information derived in the course of their duties. I think it is better to wait a few weeks for the issue of the Preliminary Report on the Census than to allow the publication of anticipatory figures which might afterwards be found to be somewhat erroneous.
  MARQUESS of TULLIBARDINE: Does the right hon. Gentleman mean that the figures for Scotland are incorrect?
  Mr. BURNS: On the contrary, but the Noble Lord will see the difference between figures secured from a country of

  1591
  roughly 5,000,000 of people and figures secured from a country of roughly 36,000,000 of people.
  Mr. SCOTT DICKSON: Within what time will the figures be known?
  Mr. BURNS: I believe summaries for England and Wales will be, as promised, ready about June.
  Mr. BUTCHER: Is there any objection to publishing the figures of the different localities in England as soon as they are ready?
  Mr. BURNS: The view has been that in regard to England and Wales, with a population estimated at this moment at 36,000,000, considering the large difference between the two countries and the small difference between waiting ten years or nine years and nine months, we are warranted in taking the later period.

  Metropolitan Unions (Lunatics).
  Mr. LANSBURYasked the President if he will stated the number of persons in "ach metropolitan union certified as lunatics or imbeciles for the year ending 31st March, and the total fees paid in each union to medical men for certifying such persons.
  Mr. BURNS: I have no information as to the number of lunatics and imbeciles certified during the year in question. Inquiry has recently been made through one of my inspectors as to the fees paid by guardians under Section 285 of the Lunacy Act, 1890, to medical practitioners for the examination of alleged lunatics during the year 1910, and I shall be pleased to furnish the hon. Member with information respecting such payments in the several metropolitan unions as soon as the particulars are available.
  Mr. LANSBURY: Can that information be circulated to all the representatives of the communities?
  Mr. BURNS: Yes; it will be in the form of a return, and I will circulate it with the votes.

  Vaccination.
  Mr. POINTERasked the President of the Board of Education whether he is aware that the Chiswick education committee have resolved that the head teachers of the council schools shall make an inquiry with a view of ascertaining which children attending such schools
  1592
  have not been vaccinated, for the purpose of advising the parents on the matter; whether this is part of the duty assigned to teachers under the code of the Board; and, if not, what steps will be taken to put a stop to the proposal?
  Mr. TREVELYAN: The Board have no information on the point, but if the hon. Member can give me further particulars I shall be glad to make inquiries. With reference to the second part of the Question, the only Article in the Code which appears to be relevant to this matter is Article 15; this article requires teachers to be employed under written agreements or minutes, which must contain these words: "The teacher shall not be required to perform any duties except such as are connected with the work of a Public Elementary School."
  Mr. LANSBURYasked the President if a public vaccinator in Bermondsey pays 2s. to the parent of every child taken to him for vaccination; and, if this is the case, will he consider the advisability of recommending the Bermondsey board of guardians to reduce the fees paid to public vaccinators in that union?
  Mr. BURNS: One of the public vaccinators in Bermondsey is also a teacher of vaccination, authorised to give certificates of proficiency in vaccination to persons who may afterwards become public vaccinators. I understand that he makes some payments to the mothers of children who bring them for vaccination to the classes which he holds for the instruction of students. I do not see sufficient reason for recommending a reduction of the fees paid by the guardians to the public vaccinator.
  Mr. LANSBURY: Does the right hon. Gentleman think it is a quite right and proper thing that a public vaccinator should be paid something over 6s. by a public authority and that he should pay away 2s. to entice people to be vaccinated or have their children vaccinated?
  Mr. BURNS: The inference of the hon. Member is not, I think, quite justified by the facts. This payment is not made to induce the mother to have vaccinated a child who otherwise would be exempt. It is remuneration to the mother for taking a child that the parents are determined should be vaccinated in order that students learning vaccination should have the best means at their disposal for learning their work properly.
  Mr. LANSBURY: Will the right hon. Gentleman consider whether it is not very unfair to the other public vaccinators in a district that one of the officers should be-in this position owing to the operation of a grant from the public authority?
  Mr. BURNS: There are only thirteen of these teachers of vaccination all over England and Wales. No complaint has been made by other doctors and no complaint has been made by the parents. The suggestion that it is a bribe to the parents of the children to have their children vaccinated is not fair. No abuse has arisen from this, and some amount of good has been done to the profession.
  Mr. SNOWDENasked to what sanitary authorities he has issued regulations or orders, under Sections 130 and 134 of the Public Health Act, 1875, empowering such authorities to provide facilities for vaccination; and on what dates the regulations or orders in question were published in the "London Gazette," as required by Sections 130 and 135 of the said Act?
  Mr. BURNS: Orders of the nature described were issued in 1904 to the Town Council of Dewsbury and the Urban District Councils of Ravensthorpe and Soot-hill Nether. The Order to the first-named authority was gazetted on 25th October, 1904, and to the others on 1st November, 1904.
  Mr. LANSBURYasked whether it is the practice of the medical staff of the Metropolitan Asylums Board to detain suspicious cases of small-pox at the South Wharf; if so, why the medical officer there, having some doubt whether the diagnosis was correct in the case of the Camberwell boy, William James Kent, sent him down to the Joyce Green Hospital on the day on which the patient had been removed from his home; and what other protest could have been made by the father, that he did not want the boy to be vaccinated, than that which was conveyed to the doctor by the nurse in charge of the patient?
  Mr. BURNS: I understand that it is the practice of the medical officer on duty at South Wharf to detain there cases certified to be suffering from small-pox, but in which there is doubt as to the correctness of the diagnosis. In the case of William James Kent the medical officer at the Wharf was of opinion that there was every probability that he had small-pox, and consequently he sent him to Joyce Green Hospital. As, however, he considered
  1594
  there was a possible element of doubt he vaccinated the boy to eliminate the risk of his contracting small-pox if it should turn out that he was not already suffering from it. I do not suggest that the father was, in the circumstances, able to make any other form of protest.

  Railway Property Valuation (Lowton).
  Mr. RAFFANasked the President of the Local Government Board whether his attention had been directed to the recent revaluation of railway property in the parish of Lowton, and the loss of rateable value thereby entailed on local administrative bodies; whether he was aware that the Lowton parish council have protested against this revaluation as inequitable, and suggested that the duty of assessing this class of property should be transferred from the overseers and the union assessment committees to a Government Department; and whether he would consider this suggestion, with a view to action being taken in the matter?
  Mr. BURNS: I have received a copy of a resolution passed by the Lowton parish council to the effect referred to in the question. Legislation would be necessary to attain the end which the parish council have in view, and I could not promise to introduce a Bill on the subject at the present time.

  Armstrong, Whitworth and Company (Fair Wages Resolution).
  Mr. TYSON WILSONasked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether he is aware that the decision of the Admiralty that the firm of Armstrong, Whitworth, and Company, Openshaw, Manchester, is observing the Fair-Wage Clause is causing dissatisfaction to the workmen concerned, in whose opinion the firm is guilty of a breach of the clause; whether he is aware that in the investigations that were made no approach was made to the men's re presentatives to hear their point of view; and whether, in view of the fact that this firm is being continually complained about for alleged violation of the Fair-Wage Clause, he will have this particular case referred to the advisory committee for consideration?
  The FIRST LORD of the ADMIRALTY (Mr. McKenna): With regard to the first part of the question the Admiralty undertook a very complete and impartial investigation into the system and wages prevailing for the class of work in question' in the district, and are satisfied that a

  1595
  correct conclusion has been arrived at. As to the second part, the men's case was fully stated in correspondence and at a personal interview with the investigating officer as far back as February, 1910, and the most careful consideration was given by the Admiralty to all the points urged on the men's side. In August, 1910, an opportunity was afforded to the trade society to bring forward any fresh evidence, but no such evidence has been furnished. A recent visit of a second inspecting officer showed no reason for differing from the previous conclusion. With regard to the last part of the question, the case being one of simple fact and not of general principle or affecting any other department, no necessity is seen for reference to the advisory committee.
  Mr. CHARLES DUNCAN: Was any inquiry made into the rate of wages paid to unskilled labourers?
  Mr. McKENNA: I do not think that arises directly out of the question. Will the hon. Member give me notice?

  Horn Case.
  Mr. CHARLES DUNCANasked whether any decision had yet been arrived at as to the payment of costs in the Horn case, and, if so, to what effect?
  Mr. McKENNA: The answer is in the negative.

  Rosyth Dockyard (Accommodation for Workmen).
  Mr. JOHN WARDasked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether he is aware that twenty-four cases of accident to workmen employed upon the new dock works at Rosyth have been treated in the local Poor Law institutions at the expense of the ratepayers since July, 1910; and whether he proposes to take action to provide proper hospital accommodation for the workmen and prevent their becoming paupers?
  Mr. McKENNA: I am aware that my right hon. Friend the Lord Advocate stated on the 27th March last, in reply to a question by my hon. Friend, that twenty-four cases of accident, mostly slight, have been sent to the Dunfermline Poor-House Hospital by the Parish Council of Inverkeithing since the commencement of the works. I am informed that since 1st July, 1910, twelve men were sent to the Poor Law Infirmary suffering from accidents
  1596
  which they stated were received on Rosyth works; eleven of these were light cases of bruises and strains. One case of broken leg was treated in the first instance in the West of Fife Hospital, but while under treatment the man became insane and had to be removed to the Poor Law Infirmary for proper supervision. Any obligation there may be for the provision of hospital accommodation for the workmen at Rosyth falls upon the contractors and not upon the Admiralty.
  Mr. JOHN WARD: When are we going to have it finally settled whether it is the duty of the right hon. Gentleman or the contractor?
  Mr. McKENNA: I think it is perfectly clear that no obligation remains with the Admiralty with regard to hospital accommodation being provided for the contractors' workmen.
  Mr. ASHLEY: Is any obligation put on the contractor under the contract?
  Mr. McKENNA: I do not think in the contract there is any obligation on the contractor. The ordinary custom of the trade governs the relations between the contractor and his men. In the contract between the Admiralty and the contractor the Fair Wages Clause is of course inserted. That Clause does not secure hospital accommodation.
  Major ANSTRUTHER-GRAY: Is the right hon. Gentleman satisfied that the hospital accommodation is ample?
  Mr. McKENNA: The reports I have received are not unfavourable in that respect, but the obligation of providing hospital accommodation does not fall upon the Admiralty.
  Major ANSTRUTHER-GRAY: Will the right hon. Gentleman make further inquiries?
  Mr. McKENNA: Certainly.
  Mr. REMNANT: Have the two medical officers, one to be appointed by the Admiralty and one by the contractor, been appointed?
  Mr. McKENNA: There are two medical officers in attendance, one appointed by the contractors, and an assistant appointed by the contractors. There is an Admiralty officer, but I do not think he is appointed specially in regard to these works.
  Mr. REMNANT: Will the right hon. Gentleman look into the matter. They were not appointed two months ago.
  Mr. McKENNA: I can assure the hon. Member they are appointed at this moment.
  Mr. J. WARDasked whether the Scotch Local Government Board has made any communication to the Admiralty relating to the housing accommodation of the workmen employed upon the new dock works at Rosyth?
  Mr. McKENNA: On 1st March, 1911, the Local Government Board for Scotland forwarded a copy of the report of the Medical Officer of Health of the Fife County Council on the conditions under which navvies employed at Rosyth are being housed, to the effect that the navvies temporarily housed within the Burgh of Inverkeithing were accommodated in a satisfactory manner.
  Mr. MORRELL: Is the Local Government Board satisfied with the report?
  Mr. McKENNA: That I cannot say, but the Local Government Board for Scotland forwarded a report to the Admiralty, and that is the only report we have received.
  Mr. J. WARD: Is it the fact that this satisfactory accommodation is really a doss-house, where some 800 men take lodgings at 4d. a night, and where quite recently, owing to lack of proper accommodation, a man lay injured for two days without being washed or attended to?
  Mr. McKENNA: I hope to have an opportunity not long hence of inspecting the place myself, but I am unable from personal knowledge at present to agree or disagree with the statement.

  Land Purchase (Ireland).
  Mr. JOHN PHILLIPSasked the Chief Secretary for Ireland if he can state when the estate of the Rev. Sir George Fetherston, of Ardagh, county Longford, will be arrived at in its order of priority; has the vendor consented to take all the stock, or any; and when will this property be vested in the tenants?
  The CHIEF SECRETARY for IRELAND (Mr. Birrell): Having regard to the prior claims of other estates, the Estates Commissioners are not in a position to say when the estate referred to will be dealt with.
  Mr. BOLANDasked whether the Congested Districts Board has requested Mr. Myles O'Mahony to open negotiations for the sale of his estate in the parish of Tuogh, county Kerry; and, if not, whether a request will now be addressed to him?
  Mr. BIRRELL: Mr. Myles O'Mahony is trustee of the estate of the late Edward Sugrue, and the Congested Districts Board are communicating with the solicitor with a view to opening negotiations for the purchase of the estate.
  Mr. BOLANDasked the Chief Secretary for Ireland if he can state when the tenants on the estate of the late Major Manhoy, at Dooks, will be given an opportunity of considering the terms of sale offered to the Congested Districts Board by the landlord, in view of the fact that the agent for the estate is under the impression that he is only entitled to conduct negotiations direct with the Board, and that the tenants are unable to obtain any indication of the proposed terms of sale?
  Mr. BIRRELL: The estate referred to has been offered for sale to the Congested Districts Board, but the rental and maps have not yet been furnished, and until these documents are received a valuation of the estate cannot be made. The proposed terms of purchase cannot be indicated to either landlord or tenants until the report of the valuers has been received and considered by the Board.

  Magistrates, Queen's County.
  Mr. DELANYasked the Chief Secretary for Ireland whether he can state the number of Catholic and Protestant magistrates, respectively, in Queen's County, exclusive of the ex-officio magistrates appointed under the Local Government Act, 1898; and the proportion of Catholics to Protestants in the population of the county?
  Mr. BIRRELL: The number of magistrates in the Queen's County, exclusive of ex-officio magistrates under the Local Government Act, 1898, is 110, of whom thirty-five are believed to be Roman Catholics and seventy-five to belong to other religious denominations. The exact proportion of the Roman Catholics in the county to the whole of the population of the county at the present time cannot be stated until after the publication of the returns of the recent Census.

  Old Age Pensions.
  Mr. HAYDENasked the Chief Secretary for Ireland whether he will take steps with a view to having an old age pension granted to a woman named Julia M'Cormack, at present an inmate of the Castlerea Workhouse, this being a case in which, though there is no documentary proof, it is exceptionally well known by the people of the entire district where the woman lives that she is far beyond the required limit of age?
  Mr. BIRRELL: The Local Government Board upheld the appeal of the pension officer against the decision of the local pension sub-committee awarding Julia M'Cormack a pension of five shillings a week on the ground that there was not sufficient evidence to show that she had reached the statutory age. The Board are not empowered to reopen the case, but if Julia M'Cormack makes a fresh claim which comes before the Board on appeal, they will send an inspector to visit her before they come to a decision.
  Mr. MURRAY MACDONALDasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he is aware that a woman under seventy years of age cannot receive parochial relief if her husband is in receipt of an old age pension; and whether, if so, he would consent to such an alteration of the law as would entitle the wife to come under the care of the parochial authorities?
  Mr. HOBHOUSE: There is nothing in the Old Age Pensions Act to prevent the wife of a pensioner from receiving poor relief, but if she receives such relief (not being medical relief) her husband is disqualified for receiving his pension while the receipt of relief by the wife continues. The point is one which is receiving careful consideration in connection with the proposed amending Bill, but I am not yet in a position to make any definite statement on the subject.

  Fishing Industry, North Kerry.
  Mr. FLAVINasked the Chief Secretary for Ireland whether he can state what action the Government had taken in connection with the improvement and development of the fishing industry at the Cushen mouth, situate between Bally-bunion and Ballyduff, North Kerry; and whether he will direct an inspector to visit the place with a view of assisting the numerous men engaged in the fishing?
  Mr. BIRRELL: The Department of Agriculture, at the request of the local fishermen, made last year a by-law which has the effect of permitting netting for salmon and trout in the tidal portion of the river Cushen sixteen days earlier than in previous years. During the years 1905 to 1910 the Department made contributions amounting to £730 for the protection and development of the fisheries of the river. A grant of £150 has been offered in respect of the year 1911. They have also supplied salmon ova to a hatchery which was erected for the benefit of the river. The Congested Districts Board have recently appointed a special superintendent for the coast of the congested districts-south of the Shannon, and he has been instructed to furnish reports on the various-fishing centres in his district including that referred to in the question.

  Departmental Committees (Reports).
  Mr. COURTHOPEasked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury whether he is aware that His Majesty's Stationery Office now refuse, in the case of the Reports of Departmental Committees, to print the marginal reference numbers, which have in the past formed a valuable addition to similar Reports; and whether, in view of the fact that, without such reference numbers, it is impossible to study a Report in conjunction with the published minutes of evidence and appendices, and that the value and public interest of both Report and Minutes of Evidence are thereby greatly diminished, he will sanction the printing of the usual marginal reference numbers in the case of the Interim Report of the Departmental Committee on Swine Fever, which is now ready to go to press?
  Mr. HOBHOUSE: The use of marginal notes was very carefully considered by the Select Committee on Publications, who recommended that such notes should either be entirely abandoned or be very sparingly used (Section 6 of their 1907 Report H.C. 272). A Treasury Circular was-issued to Departments calling attention to-this and other recommendations, which have since been adopted in dealing with the Reports of Royal Commissions and other public bodies.

  Super-Tax.
  Mr. BUTCHERasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether his attention has been called to the fact that in the case of a person who was liable to Super-tax for

  1601
  the year ending 6th April, 1910, and who died immediately after that date, the Special Commissioners of Income Tax are claiming from his representatives payment of Super-tax for the full year from 6th April, 1910, to 6th April. 1911; and whether he will state under which section of the Finance Act, 1910, such claim is justified
  Mr. HOBHOUSE: I beg to refer the hon. and learned Member to Sections 66 and 72 of the Finance (1909–10) Act, 1910, and to Section 3 of the Finance Act, 1910.

  Disturbance in Morocco.
  Major ARCHER-SHEE: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he can inform the House as to the number of British subjects residing in Fez at the present time, and what steps the Government propose taking to safeguard British interests in that part of Morocco?
  Mr. McKINNON WOOD: The number of British subjects residing at Fez on 27th March, 1911, apart from persons of Moorish parentage, was ten. Of these, six were women and two were children. His Majesty's Government do not contemplate any active measures. They consider that the arrangements being made under French supervision will afford the necessary protection to British subjects at Fez. No special measures appear to be called for to safeguard British interests in that part of Morocco.
  Mr. DILLON: Has the Government any information which would give them cause for believing that there is any danger to Europeans?
  Mr. McKINNON WOOD: No; we have no such information.
  Mr. REMNANT: May I ask whether any representations have been made to the French Government to carry out the suggestions—
  Mr. McKINNON WOOD: No representations have been made to the French Government.
  Major ARCHER-SHEE: May I ask whether it is intended to co-operate with other Governments should it become necessary to send a large force to pacify Morocco?
  Mr. McKINNON WOOD: No occasion has arisen to make us contemplate any such action.
  Mr. REMNANT: May I ask the hon. Gentleman whether he will ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether it is his intention to make representations, and, if so, whether he will do so at once?
  Mr. McKINNON WOOD: There is no necessity to make representations.
  Major ARCHER-SHEE: In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the reply, I beg leave to move the adjournment of the House to call attention to a definite matter of urgent public importance, namely, the attitude to be adopted by this country in the event of extensive military operations being required for the pacification of Morocco.
  Mr. DILLON: This is for the purpose of creating a scare.
  Mr. SPEAKER: I am afraid that the hon. Member's Motion cannot come within the rule which says that the matter must be a definite one. The terms are "the attitude to be adopted by this country." That is something very indefinite, and it depends on a purely hypothetical event, namely, "extensive military operations being required." The hon. Member had better wait and see.

LAW OFFICERS' OPINIONS.
Mr. SWIFT MacNEILL: I would be glad, Mr. Speaker, if you would kindly answer a question on a matter which you asked me to postpone until after questions. It arises on question No. 3 on the paper, in which the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs was asked whether he had consulted the Law Officers of the Crown on such and such a point. I submit that a question of that kind is out of Order, and for this reason. It has been held again and again that the opinions given by Law Officers of the Crown are confidential, and these opinions cannot be published. It has been likewise held that Members of this House are not allowed to interrogate Law Officers of the Crown in reference to their opinions, or when their salaries are under discussion, either in Committee or on Report, to criticise any opinions they have given, and questions such as that on the paper would have a tendency to shift the responsibility from the Minister in charge, who is the person answerable to this House to the Law Officers of the Crown.

1603
On that account I think that the question is scarcely in Order, and I ask your opinion in reference to it.
Mr. SPEAKER: It is very well known that the opinions of the Law Officers of the Crown cannot be cited here, and if a Member of the Government does happen to cite the opinion of Law Officers of the Crown he must make himself responsible for it, and not endeavour to shelter himself behind the legal views of his legal colleagues. But, on the other hand, there is no objection to stating on occasions all that is asked here, whether the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs did consult the Law Officers. If the hon. Member had proceeded to go on and ask what was the result of that consultation then the latter part of his question would have been out of Order. But I do not think that there is anything out of Order in asking whether the advice was taken or not.

BILL PRESENTED.
  CONVEYANCE OF ELECTORS TO POLL BILL.
  "To regulate the loan or employment of motor-cars for the purpose of conveying Electors to or from the Poll," presented by Sir CHARLES HENRY; supported by Mr. Beck, Mr. Brace, Mr. Maclean, Mr. Ponsonby, Sir Albert Spicer, Mr. T. P. O'Connor, Mr. Johnson, Sir Frederick Low, Mr. Shortt, Mr. Atherley-Jones, and Sir Maurice Levy; to be read a second time upon Tuesday next.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Proceedings on the Parliament Bill, if under discussion at Eleven o'clock this night, be not interrupted under the Standing Order (Sittings of the House)."—[The Prime Minister.]
The House divided: Ayes, 285; Noes, 172.

Division No. 176.]

AYES.

[3.55 p.m.

Abraham, William (Dublin Harbour)

Clynes, John R.

Hancock, J. G.

Abraham, Rt. Hon. William (Rhondda)

Collins, Godfrey P. (Greenock)

Harcourt, Rt. Hon. L. (Rossendale)

Acland, Francis Dyke

Compton-Rickett, Rt. Hon. Sir J.

Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose)

Adamson, William

Condon, Thomas Joseph

Hardie, J. Keir (Merthyr Tydvil)

Addison, Dr. C.

Corbett, A. Cameron

Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale)

Adkins, W. Ryland D.

Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.

Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, W.)

Agar-Robartes, Hon. T. C. R.

Cotton, William Francis

Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N. E.)

Agnew, Sir George William

Crawshay-Williams, Eliot

Haslam, James (Derbyshire)

Ainsworth, John Stirling

Crooks, William

Havelock-Allan, Sir Henry

Alden, Percy

Crumley, Patrick

Haworth, Arthur A.

Allen, Charles Peter (Stroud)

Cullinan, John

Hayden, John Patrick

Asquith, Rt. Hon. Herbert Henry

Dalziel, Sir James H. (Kirkcaldy)

Helme, Norval Watson

Baker, H. T. (Accrington)

Davies, Ellis William (Eifion)

Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

Baker, Joseph Allen (Finsbury, E.)

Davies, Timothy (Lincs., Louth)

Henry, Sir Charles S.

Balfour, Sir Robert (Lanark)

Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.)

Herbert, Col. Sir Ivor

Barlow, Sir John Emmott (Somerset)

Davies, M. Vaughan- (Cardigan)

Higham, John Sharp

Barnes, George N.

Dawes, J. A.

Hinds, John

Barran, Sir J. N. (Hawick)

Delany, William

Hobhouse, Rt. Hon. Charles E. H.

Barry, Redmond John (Tyrone, N.)

Dewar, Sir J. A.

Hodge, John

Barton, William

Dillon, John

Holt, Richard Durning

Beale, W. P.

Doris, William

Hope, John Deans (Haddington)

Beauchamp, Edward

Duffy, William J.

Howard, Hon. Geoffrey

Beck, Arthur Cecil

Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness)

Hughes, Spencer Leigh

Benn, W. (Tower Hamlets, St. Geo.)

Duncan, J. Hastings (York, Otley)

Hunter, William (Lanark, Govan)

Bentham, G. J.

Edwards, Enoch Hanley

Isaacs, Sir Rufus Daniel

Bethell, Sir J. H.

Elibank, Rt. Hon. Master of

Jardine, Sir John (Roxburghshire)

Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine

Elverston, Harold

John, Edward Thomas

Boland, John Pius

Esmonde, Sir Thomas (Wexford, N.)

Johnson, W.

Booth, Frederick Handel

Essex, Richard Walter

Jones, Sir D. Brynmor (Swansea)

Bowerman, C W.

Esslemont, George Birnie

Jones, Edgar (Merthyr Tydvil)

Boyle, Daniel (Mayo, North)

Falconer, James

Jones, Leif Stratten (Notts, Rushcliffe)

Brace, William

Fenwick, Charles

Jones, William (Carnarvonshire)

Brady, Patrick Joseph

Ferens, Thomas Robinson

Jones, W. S. Glyn- (T. H'mts, Stepney)

Brigg, Sir John

Ffrench, Peter

Joyce, Michael

Brocklehurst, William B.

Field, William

Kellaway, Frederick George

Bryce, J. Annan

Fiennes, Hon. Eustace Edward

Kelly, Edward

Burke, E. Haviland

Fitzgibbon, John

Kennedy, Vincent Paul

Burns, Rt. Hon. John

Flavin, Michael Joseph

Kilbride, Denis

Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas

France, G. A.

Lambert, George (Devon, S. Molton)

Buxton, Rt. Hon. S. C. (Poplar)

Gelder, Sir W. A.

Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade)

Byles, William Pollard

Gill, A. H.

Lawson, Sir W. (Cumb'rld., Cockerm'th)

Carr-Gomm, H. W.

Glanville, Harold James

Levy, Sir Maurice

Cawley, Sir Frederick (Prestwich)

Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford

Lewis, John Herbert

Cawley, H. T. (Lancs., Heywood)

Goldstone, Frank

Logan, John William

Chancellor, Henry George

Greenwood, Granville G. (Peterborough)

Lough, Rt. Hon. Thomas

Chapple, Dr. William Allen

Griffith, Ellis Jones

Lundon, Thomas

Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston S.

Guest, Hon. Major C. H. C. (Pembroke)

Lyell, Charles Henry

Clancy, John Joseph

Gwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway)

Lynch, Arthur Alfred

Clough, William

Hackett, John

Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester)

Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk Burghs)

O'Neill, Dr. Claries (Armagh, S.)

Smith, Albert (Lancs., Clitheroe)

Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.

O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

Smith, H. B. Lees (Northampton)

MacNeill, John Gordon Swift

O'Shee, James John

Spicer, Sir Albert

MacVeagh, Jeremiah

O'Sullivan, Timothy

Stanley, Albert (Staffs, N. W.)

M Callum, John M.

Palmer, Godfrey Mark

Strachey, Sir Edward

McKenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald

Parker, James (Halifax)

Strauss, Edward A. (Southwark, West)

M'Laren, H. D. (Leicester)

Pearce, William (Limehouse)

Summers, James Wooley

M'Laren, F. W. S. (Lincs., Spalding)

Pearson, Hon. Weetman H. M.

Sutton, John E.

M'Laren, Walter S. B. (Ches., Crewe)

Pease, Rt. Hon. Joseph A. (Rotherham)

Taylor, John W. (Durham)

M'Micking, Major Gilbert

Phillips, John (Longford, S.)

Tennant, Harold John

Manfield, Harry

Pirie, Duncan Vernon

Thomas, J. H. (Derby)

Markham, Arthur Basil

Pointer, Joseph

Trevelyan, Charles Philips

Marshall, Arthur Harold

Pollard, Sir George H.

Ure, Rt. Hon. Alexander

Martin, Joseph

Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H.

Verney, Sir Harry

Mason, David M. (Coventry)

Power, Patrick Joseph

Walsh, Stephen (Lancs., Ince)

Masterman, C. F. G.

Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central)

Walters, John Tudor

Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.)

Priestley, Sir W. E. B. (Bradford, E.)

Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent)

Meehan, Patrick A. (Queen's Co.)

Pringle, William M. R.

Ward, W. Dudley (Southampton)

Menzies, Sir Walter

Radford, George Heynes

Wardle, George J.

Millar, James Duncan

Raffan, Peter Wilson

Waring, Walter

Molloy, Michael

Raphael, Sir Herbert H.

Warner, Sir Thomas Courtenay

Molteno, Percy Alport

Rea, Rt. Hon. Russell (South Shields)

Wason, Rt. Hon. E. (Clackmannan)

Money, L. G. Chiozza

Rea, Walter Russell (Scarborough)

Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney)

Montagu, Hon. E. S.

Reddy, Michael

Watt, Henry A

Mooney, John J.

Redmond, John E. (Waterford)

Wedgwood, Josiah C

Morrell, Philip

Redmond, William (Clare, E.)

White, Sir George (Norfolk)

Morton, Alpheus Cleophas

Richards, Thomas

White, Sir Luke (York, E. R.)

Muidoon, John

Richardson, Thomas (Whitehaven)

White, Patrick (Meath, North)

Munro, Robert

Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)

Whitehouse, John Howard

Munro-Ferguson, Rt. Hon. R. C.

Roberts, George H. (Norwich)

Whittaker, Rt. Hon. Sir Thomas.

Nannetti, Joseph P.

Roberts, Sir J. H. (Denbighs.)

Whyte, A. F.

Needham, Christopher T.

Robertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradford)

Wilkie, Alexander

Neilson, Francis

Robinson, Sidney

Williams, John (Glamorgan)

Nicholson, Charles N. (Doncaster

Roche, Augustine (Louth)

Williams, Penry (Middlesbrough)

Nolan, Joseph

Roe, Sir Thomas

Williamson, Sir A.

Norman, Sir Henry

Rose, Sir Charles Day

Wilson, Hon. G. G. (Hull, W.)

Norton, Capt. Cecil W.

Rowlands, James

Wilson, Henry J. (Yorks, W. R.)

Nugent, Sir Walter Richard

Rowntree, Arnold

Wilson, John (Durham, Mid)

O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland)

Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)

O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)

Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees)

Winfrey, Richard

O'Doherty, Philip

Scanlan, Thomas

Wood, T. M'Kinnon (Glasgow)

O'Dowd, John

Schwann, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles E.

Young, Samuel (Cavan, E.)

Ogden, Fred

Scott, A. MacCallum (Glasgow Bridgeton)

Young, William (Perth, East)

O'Grady, James

Seely, Colonel, Rt. Hon. J. E. B.

Yoxall, Sir James Henry

O'Kelly, Edward P. (Wicklow, W.)

Sheehy, David

O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N.)

Shortt, Edward

TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr. Illingworth and Mr. Gulland.

O'Malley, William

Simon, Sir John Allsebrook

NOES.

Anstruther-Gray, Major William

Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry

Gretton, John

Archer-Shee, Major M.

Clay, Captain H. H. Spender

Guinness, Hon. Walter Edward

Ashley, Wilfrid W.

Clive, Percy Archer

Gwynne, R. S. (Sussex, Eastbourne)

Astor, Waldorf

Cooper, Richard Ashmole

Hambro, Angus Valdemar

Bagot, Lieut.-Colonel J.

Courthope, George Loyd

Hamersley, Alfred St. George

Baird, John Lawrence

Craig, Charles Curtis (Antrim, S.)

Hamilton, Lord C. J. (Kensington)

Baker, Sir Randolf L. (Dorset, N.)

Craig, Captain James (Down, E.)

Harris, Henry Percy

Baldwin, Stanley

Crichton-Stuart, Lord Ninian

Helmsley, Viscount

Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (City, Lond)

Cripps, Sir Charles Alfred

Hill, Sir Clement L.

Banbury, Sir Frederick George

Croft, Henry Page

Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield)

Barnston, H.

Dalrymple, Viscount

Horne, William E. (Surrey, Guildford)

Barrie, H. T. (Londonderry, N.)

Dickson, Rt. Hon. C. Scott

Horner, Arthur Long

Bathurst, Charles (Wilts., Wilton)

Dixon, Charles Harvey

Houston, Robert Paterson

Beach, Hon. Michael Hugh Hicks

Doughty, Sir George

Hunt, Rowland

Benn, Arthur Shirley (Plymouth)

Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

Ingleby, Holcombe

Benn, Ion Hamilton (Greenwich)

Du Cros. Arthur Philip

Jardine, Ernest (Somerset, E.)

Bennett-Goldney, Francis

Eyres-Monsell, Bolton M.

Jowett, Frederick William

Bentinck, Lord Henry Cavendish

Faber, Capt. W. V. (Hants, W.)

Joynson-Hicks, William

Bigland, Alfred

Falle, Bertram Godfray

Kebty-Fletcher, J. R.

Bird, Alfred

Finlay, Sir Robert

Kerr-Smiley, Peter Kerr

Bottomley, Horatio

Fisher, William Hayes

Kerry, Earl of

Boyle, W. Lewis (Norfolk, Mid)

Fitzroy, Hon. Edward A.

Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement

Brassey, H. Leonard Campbell

Fleming, Valentine

Kirkwood, John H. M.

Bridgeman, W. Clive

Fletcher, John Samuel (Hampstead)

Lansbury, George

Bull, Sir William James

Forster, Henry William

Larmor, Sir J.

Burn, Colonel C. R.

Foster, Philip Staveley

Law, Andrew Bonar (Bootle, Lancs.)

Butcher, John George

Frewen, Moreton

Lawson, Hon. H. (T. H'mts., Mile End)

Carlile, Edward Mildred

Gardner, Ernest

Lee, Arthur Hamilton

Cassel, Felix

Gastrell, Major W. Houghton

Locker-Lampson, G. (Salisbury)

Castlereagh, Viscount

Gibbs, George Abraham

Lockwood, Rt. Hon. Lt.-Col. A. R.

Cator, John

Gilmour, Captain John

Long, Rt. Hon. Walter

Cautley, Henry Strother

Goldsmith, Frank

Lonsdale, John Brownlee

Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

Gordon, John

Lowther, Claude (Cumberland, Eskdale)

Cecil, Lord Huqh (Oxford Univ.)

Grant, J. A.

Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. A. (S. Geo. Han. S.)

Chaloner, Col. R. G. W.

Greene, Walter Raymond

MacCaw, Wm. J. MacGeagh

1606

1607

M'Mordla, Robert

Pretyman, Ernest George

Thomson, W. Mitchell (Down, N.)

Magnus, Sir Philip

Pryce-Jones, Colonel E.

Thorne, William (West Ham)

Malcolm, Ian

Rawilnson, John Frederick Peel

Thynne, Lord Alexander

Mason, James F. (Windsor)

Remnant, James Farquharson

Tobin, Alfred Aspinall

Middlemore, John Throgmorton

Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall)

Tryon, Captain George Clement

Mildmay, Francis Bingham

Rothschild, Lionel de

Tullibardine, Marquess of

Morrison-Bell, Major A. C. (Honiton)

Samuel, Sir Harry (Norwood)

Valentia, Viscount

Mount, William Arthur

Sanders, Robert Arthur

Ward, A. S. (Herts, Watford)

Newdegate, F. A.

Sanderson, Lancelot

Wheler, Granville C. H.

Newman, John R. P.

Sandys, G. J. (Somerset, Wells)

White, Major G. D. (Lancs., Southport)

Newton, Harry Kottingham

Scott, Leslie (Liverpool, Exchange)

Willoughby, Major Hon. Claude

Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield)

Snowden, Philip

Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E. R.)

Nield, Herbert

Spear, John Ward

Wolmer, Viscount

Norton-Griffiths, J.

Stanley, Hon. G F. (Preston)

Wood, John (Stalybridge)

O'Neill, Hon. A. E. B. (Antrim, Mid)

Starkey, John Ralph

Worthington-Evans, L.

Orde-Powlett, Hon. W. G. A.

Staveley-Hill, Henry

Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

Ormsby-Gore Hon. William

Steel-Maitland, A. D.

Yate, Colonel C E.

Parker, Sir Gilbert (Gravesend)

Strauss, Arthur (Paddington, North)

Yerburgh, Robert

Parkes, Ebenezer

Swift, Rigby

Younger, George

Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington)

Sykes, Alan John

Peel, Captain R. F. (Woodbridge)

Talbot, Lord Edmund

Peel, Hon. W. R. W. (Taunton)

Terrell, George (Wilts, N. W.)

TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Earl of

Perkins, Walter Frank

Terrell, Henry (Gloucester)

Ronaldshay and Mr. Fell.

Pole-Carew, Sir R.

Thompson, Robert (Belfast, North)

PARLIAMENT BILL.— [Ninth Day.]
Bill considered in Committee.—[Progress, 24th April.]
(IN THE COMMITTEE.)
[Mr. EMMOTT in the Chair.]

PARLIAMENT BILL.— [Ninth Day.]

  CLAUSE 2.—(Restriction of the powers of the House of Lords as to Bills other than Money Bills.)
  (1) If any Bill other than a Money Bill is passed by the House of Commons in three successive Sessions (whether of the same Parliament or not), and, having been sent up to the House of Lords at least one month before the end of the Session, is rejected by the House of Lords in each of those Sessions, that Bill shall, on its rejection for the third time by the House of Lords, unless the House of Commons direct to the contrary, be presented to His Majesty and become an Act of Parliament on the Royal Assent being signified thereto, notwithstanding that the House of Lords has not consented to the Bill: Provided that this provision shall not take effect unless two years have elapsed between the date of the first introduction of the Bill in the House of Commons and the date on which it passes the House of Commons for the third time.
  (2) A Bill shall be deemed to be rejected by the House of Lords if it is not passed by the House of Lords either without amendment or with such amendments only as may be agreed to by both Houses.
  (3) A Bill shall be deemed to be the same Bill as a former Bill sent up to the House of Lords in the preceding Session if, when it is sent up to the House of Lords, it is identical with the former Bill or contains only such alterations as are
  1608
  certified by the Speaker of the House of Commons to be necessary owing to the time which has elapsed since the date of the former Bill, or to represent amendments which have been made by the House of Lords in the former Bill in the preceding Session.
  Provided that the House of Commons may, if they think fit, on the passage of such a Bill through the House in the second or third Session, suggest any further amendments without inserting the amendments in the Bill, and any such suggested amendments shall be considered by the House of Lords, and if agreed to by that House, shall be treated as amendments made by the House of Lords and agreed to by the House of Commons; but the exercise of this power by the House of Commons shall not affect the operation of this section in the event of the Bill being rejected by the House of Lords.
  Sir PHILIP MAGNUS: I beg to move, in Sub-section (1), after the word "passed" ["If any Bill other than a Money Bill is passed"], to insert the words "with a majority of at least one hundred."
  It is scarcely necessary to say that no one would desire that an important measure should be passed by this House without the consent of the Upper Chamber, if it were passed by such a majority as the Prime Minister last night so emphatically described as a "casual, temporary, precarious, and in point of numbers, insignificant majority." It would be very unfortunate indeed if such an important measure as any one of those which were the subject of Amendments that were rejected, were passed by a very small majority. I need scarcely say that I

  1609
  attach no value to the number of one hundred, and the figure might be altered if the Prime Minister were prepared to accept the Amendment. I cannot think it possible that the Government would refuse to accept it, seeing that it limits the minimum majority by means of which a Bill might be passed by this House alone. without receiving the assent of the Upper House. I therefore beg to move this Amendment on the distinct understanding that for the number one hundred such other number might be substituted as the Prime Minister might suggest There should not be any doubt whatever that an Amendment to this effect will be accepted by the Government.
  The PRIME MINISTER (Mr. Asquith): We had a similar proposal by way of Amendment made by a Noble Lord below the Gangway, to the first Clause, that it should not be operative unless a Money Bill was passed by not less than a majority of two-thirds. I then pointed out, and I do not want to repeat myself, that it was totally without precedent in our legislation to require a specified majority, whether it be a majority in point of numbers counting heads, or any majority in the shape of proportion, to give special validity and sanctity to the decision of this House or Parliament as a whole. I used those arguments, which are equally applicable to the present Amendment, and nothing which the hon. Gentleman has said seems to me in any way to invalidate them. I need only repeat what I have said more than once, that, in our view, we have provided special security against hasty legislation by a "precarious and insignificant majority," to which reference has so frequently been made. The security is sufficiently provided by the safeguards in this Clause, which require that the Bill should go to the House of Lords in three successive Sessions, and after an interval of two years has elapsed between its introduction and its passing into law. Nor, again, can I do more than reiterate the argument which I employed on a previous occasion, and which is applicable to this Amendment, that if you require a specified majority in order to bring this Clause into operation you are introducing and you are sterotyping an inequality as between the two parties in the State. A Bill carried by a majority of one here passes to the House of Lords, and it passes into law without any attempt to invalidate its legislative qualities because
  1610
  of the narrowness of the majority secured here; whereas, mutatis mutandis, we shall require, according to this Amendment, m order to override the Veto of the House of Lords, a majority of not less than one hundred. The hon. Gentleman who moved the Amendment has not mentioned any particular number, but my argument is equally applicable whatever the artificial majority is. Both on this Clause and on the Clause already passed by the Committee, there seems to be good and sufficient reason against the acceptance of this or any similar Amendment.
  Mr. BALFOUR: The right hon. Gentleman the Prime Minister bases his objection to my hon. Friend's Amendment in the first place upon the fact that this Amendment or one like it was discussed on the first Clause, and was rejected. The cases of the second Clause and that of the first Clause are entirely different in their relation to this particular expedient. The theory of the Government, be it right or be it wrong, in the first Clause is that the House of Lords had nothing whatever to do with Money Bills, and, that being the case from their point of view, whether we accept it or not, and that being their answer, of course it stands to reason, from their point of view, that the smallest majority in this House would be conclusive on a Money Bill as against the House of Lords, because, in fact, according to the view of the Government, the House of Lords have never had for many years past, anything to do with Money Bills, except the privilege of barren criticism and discussion. But the case is of quite a different order when you come to Clause 2. Under Clause 1 there was no case of the Government's overriding a Money Bill, the House of Lords not being entitled to interfere. But by Clause 2, you are avowedly providing machinery by which the will and view of the House of Lords can be overriden and are intended to be overriden, even after this Bill, when the House of Lords legitimately express an opinion upon a subject which is admitted to be entirely within their competence. Surely in these circumstances it is most reasonable that we should take care that this House, when it overrides the Second Chamber, should not merely represent the precarious and narrow majority of which the Prime Minister speaks, but that it should have behind it something in the nature of a solid majority, an important majority such as would justify the highhanded action that the Government propose

  1611
  this House should take. The right hon. Gentleman replies that we have never, in our system, hitherto considered whether there should or should not be a large majority in passing a measure.
  A majority of one is as good as a majority of 100; that has been argued and it may be a very proper rule, as you are dealing with a bi-cameral Constitution. What we point out to the Government and the framers of this Bill is, that it ceases to be a proper rule when you are making your system into a uni-cameral system. Consider that aspect of the question from which the Government steadily and uniformly avert their gaze, I mean the example of other democracies, whether speaking our own language or other languages, who have, broadly speaking, imbibed their political notions from us in framing their Constitution largely on ours. For the purpose of preventing rash and hasty legislation, they have introduced this idea, that either there must be a two-thirds majority or a considerable majority in the case of any legislation which touches fundamentals. This particular Amendment is, of course, not confined to that. Nevertheless, surely if you make a scandal of this Bill, doubly scandalous it will make it if you override by a majority of ten in three successive Sessions a vast minority almost equal to the majority in its numbers, and in addition override a Second Chamber whether that be reformed or unreformed. Then just consider the case that may well happen. The Government representing the party opposite came into power in 1892 with a not very considerable majority, and that majority went on dwindling until it was reduced at the end to, if my memory serves me right, something between thirty and forty. An hon. Friend and colleague reminds me that I overrated the figure, and that the Government of that day started with about forty, and ran down before their tenure of office reached conclusion to about twenty. I think it would be a scandal if a Government supported by such a majority, small originally and steadily dwindling, were to be given power to override not merely a minority in this House, and as proved in the country, but to override also a Second Chamber, whether reformed or unreformed.
  The right hon. Gentleman says, I am not sure if he repeated his argument, but he has gone on the idea that no Government
  1612
  could go on bringing in these Bills if it found its majority dwindling. That was not our experience of Radical administration in the Parliament of 1892 to 1895. Their boldness of legislation did not diminish as their popularity waned. Weak as they were when they started, and impotent as they were on the conclusion of their term of office, that did not prevent them introducing measures revolutionary in their scope, and persevering in those until finally they were beaten in this House, and then had that repeated and endorsed in the country. That is an example actually within the historical memory of many whom I am now addressing, and it is certainly within the memory of the Prime Minister because he was a distinguished Member of that Administration. And I say it is perfectly monstrous that if the Gentlemen opposite came back after an election in the strength they did in 1892, and brought in a Home Rule Bill as they did bring it in in 1893, and on its rejection if they went on with it in 1894, and then in 1895, and that, when everybody with the smallest Parliamentary knowledge saw that they held their office by the most attenuated thread, and that the smallest accident, the dissatisfaction of the merest handful of their party would land them in defeat, that at that time they would still be in the power to carry out a great revolution against the opinion of the Second Chamber. It is a legislative paradox. Can you conceive, or is it possible to conceive, any Parliamentary position more monstrous than the one, which I have not conjured from my imagination, but the one which I have actually drawn with the few necessary variations to fit in with this Bill from the experience of many who were amongst the audience I am addressing. I cannot imagine a House of Commons reduced to this degree of impotence in its own conscience under which, although plainly losing the small remains of public force it ever possessed and power to come back again with a majority, that nevertheless it should have all the tyrannical powers which this Bill gives through a great majority, really it may be representing the great mass of opinion in the country, and that they should be able to carry out any change, however great, however violent, however irreversible, in the face of what everybody knows is the opinion of the country, and in face of what our Division lists show is the opinion of almost a majority, and which is against the opinion of the Second Chamber, reformed or unreformed. From a scandal of

  1613
  that kind the hon. Member desires to preserve us, and I think everybody will admit he is right.
  I am simply amazed at the only other argument which the Prime Minister has chosen to give us. He has repeated it, and is almost unblushing in the repetition of that argument. I think he is not wrong to repeat it, but he ought to be ashamed, not of the repetition, but of the argument itself. That argument is that this acts unfairly as between the two sides. Observe, if I am right, that this Bill does represent or may produce a legislative scandal. Is it any argument against it, when the legislative scandal would be diminished, that my hon. Friend's Amendment would still leave it possible for one side, though not for the other. If it be wrong that such a thing should be done, at all events diminish that wrong as far as you can, and if you think that the revolutionists who sit behind me on these benches are likely to embark on the frantic career which is so attractive to hon. Members opposite, then have methods which will apply to both sides. By all means, if you think we are going to wreck the' Constitution by our proposals when we are in office, provide some machinery by which that disaster may be averted. But if the disaster can take place under your Bill, then at all events take everything that can be suggested by which the magnitude of the evil can be diminished. I I cannot understand any Gentleman seriously saying, "Here is a proposal which in itself may be good and in itself may be a useful check upon the House of Commons, but inasmuch as it only puts that useful check on one party, and therefore only fulfils half the function we should like it to fulfil, we will not have that half." I do not think that is good reasoning. I do not think it is very honest reasoning. I think it does make the contest on the floor of this House too much in the nature of an interesting battle, in which the last persons to be considered are the people at large. I greatly regret the right hon. Gentleman refuses to accept either the Amendment of my hon. Friend or any modification of that Amendment, but I still more regret, or almost as much regret, that he has found no better arguments for the course he is determined to pursue.
  Mr. BYLES: I wish to give, according to my recollection, the state of affairs from 1892 to 1895, to which the right hon. Gentleman has drawn attention. He said
  1614
  that with a dwindling majority the Government went on proposing legislation. I think the instance was a most unfortunate one for the right hon. Gentleman. I was a Member of that small majority, and I remember, and was not surprised, that after the three years of legislation—heroic legislation—which was carried by the Government at that time, that the majority did somewhat dwindle, but when it dwindled, so far from the Government pursuing its line of legislation and continuing to propose great measures, what the Government did was to avail itself of a snap division on a summer afternoon, and a trifling defeat, in order to abandon its legislation, and to say we have no longer the confidence of the country, and to resign its powers. If I am right in that interpretation and in that recollection of what occurred, I suggest that the instance which the right hon. Gentleman has quoted to the House is one which not only does not tell in favour of his argument but is a splendid instance in reply.
  Mr. SANDERSON: I confess I was perfectly amazed at the answer which the Prime Minister gave to the Amendment. I think the answer which he tried to give is no answer at all. Let me take his last point. I understood his last answer was this, that if a Conservative Government were in power a majority of one in this House would be quite sufficient for them, because the House of Lords would pass a Bill which was passed by a majority of one in this House, but that if the Radical party were in power then they would be required to have a majority of 100 in this House. Let me ask the House to consider where that argument leads us to. Does it not mean that the right hon. Gentleman has no intention of carrying out the Preamble of this Bill, and that he is not going to stick to what he has said, namely, that he intends to reform the constitution of the House of Lords. On the other hand, if he is going to stick to what he has said, and intends to carry out the Preamble of the Bill and reform the constitution of the House of Lords, why then both parties would be treated quite equally. With regard to the other point, that hitherto in our parliamentary institution it has not been customary to insist upon any stereotyped majority in this House and that there was no precedent for this proposal, suppose you admit that that is so, does the right hon. Gentleman not recognise that he is proposing to do something which is entirely without precedent, and that he

  1615
  is endeavouring, instead of relying on an unwritten Constitution, as we have done in the past, to put our Constitution, at any rate to a certain extent or to a great extent, in writing. If we are going to have different conditions prevailing in the future, ought we hot to consider them on principle and not with regard to the present. It seems to me on those grounds that both points which the right hon. Gentleman raised in answer to this Amendment are entirely without foundation.
  Mr. BONAR LAW: It is rather difficult to carry on a Debate when the arguments are all on one side. As far as I could make out the argument of the hon. Member for Salford (Mr. Byles), it was that the question of Home Rule was introduced in the early stages of the 1892 Parliament, and that, therefore, the argument of my right hon. Friend did not apply.
  Mr. BYLES: My argument was that when the Government had exhausted its strength it did not go on proposing great schemes.
  Mr. BONAR LAW: The point of my right hon. Friend was that if this Bill had been law the Government, which in 1893 introduced a Home Rule Bill, would have carried that Bill through the House of Commons again in 1894, and again in 1895; and it would have become law in spite of the loss of the confidence of the country. In the meagre reply put forward by the Prime Minister there are two arguments to which I wish to call attention. If the right hon. Gentleman were really guided by his own sense as to the soundness of the arguments, I do not think he would use either of them again. But then he would be in a difficulty, because he applies them to every Amendment. First of all, he said that to limit the decisions of the House of Commons by the size of the majority is entirely unprecedented. Of course it is. But the right hon. Gentleman knows as well as anybody that the question at present only applies to a Constitution which has grown, which is historic. You cannot deal with precedents when you are yourself creating a Constitution by the light of reason, or perhaps in this case by the light of nature. When the right hon. Gentleman is destroying all the precedents on which our constitutional history rests, surely it is obvious that he must defend his case, not only on the ground of precedent, but on the ground that the proposal he is making is in itself right and justifiable. Nobody can pretend
  1616
  that it is justified in that light. Nobody can contend that a Single Chamber should have absolute power to make any changes it pleases, however small the majority may be, and however much it may recognise that it no longer represents the country.
  The next argument put forward by the right hon. Gentleman against every Amendment is that it would be unfair to his party. It is a curious kind of argument. The idea of the Prime Minister seems to be that he is the captain of a particular football team; that on some previous occasion the other side bribed the referee, and that now he is going to bribe the referee and take all the advantage he can by so doing. As a matter of fact, the use which the Prime Minister constantly makes of that argument is itself the best proof that he regards the Preamble of the Bill merely as a useful instrument for getting votes for Members of this House. It is perfectly obvious that if the Preamble were part of the purpose of this Bill all that kind of argument would fall to the ground. The right hon. Gentleman told us earlier in these Debates that he held the fulfilment of the Preamble as an obligation of honour. But he gave a curious illustration last night of what he means by an obligation of honour when he said that it would depend on the Noble Lord the Member for Oxford University (Lord H. Cecil) whether he was able to carry it out or not. Could anything be more absurd? The very same majority which enabled him to carry the Parliament Bill in this form would enable him to carry the Preamble if he could get its support. For that reason it is perfectly obvious that all these arguments about unfairness are based upon what is now clearly the intention of the Government, namely, to have Single-Chamber Government and nothing else.
  Mr. GUINNESS: The Prime Minister stated that it was totally without precedent to require a special majority in order to give validity to any legislation. Revolutionaries have worn very strange garments in the past, but never have they chosen more ill-fitting clothes than those of precedent. There is equally no precedent for having no check at all on a chance majority in the House of Commons. The right hon. Gentleman seems to forget that under our representative system we get a very inaccurate picture indeed of public opinion in the country. We have no representation of minorities. We have such vast differences between large and small

  1617
  constituencies that you get the most ludicrous misrepresentation of the people. In the 1906 Parliament the Radical Government should have had a majority of fifty-four; they actually had a majority of 300. In the 1900 Parliament the Unionist majority should have been only sixteen, but, as a matter of fact, it was 134. In the Parliaments of 1874 and 1886 the majority of seats in this House actually represented a minority of the votes given in the country. I do not say that this Amendment would absolutely prevent such anomalies, but it would do something in that direction. It would ensure that a considerable majority existed in this House, and presumably a certain majority in the country before a revolutionary change could be carried out. If the Government have not thrown over Sir Henry Campbell-Bannerman's resolution in favour of making the will of the people prevail, surely they must take some steps to find out what the will of the people is before using these violent and hitherto unconstitutional methods. They must gauge the will of the people and find out that it is above the average level. They must ignore the fluctuations which are merely waves in the popular will and do not represent any permanent level of opinion. This Amendment would not touch finance. It would enable the Government to get the necessary ways and means, even if it had a very small majority. Equally it would not touch the power which Governments with a small majority possess under the present system. They could go on quite well as they have in the past by confining themselves to measures with the support of both Houses. If this House does not want to set up a system whereby the will of the majority may easily be flouted, if they really want to see the will of the people prevail, they must see that a chance majority does not get this revolutionary power into its hands. If the Government refuse this Amendment, and give power to a majority of two or three votes to carry out a revolution in the face of the opposition of the Second Chamber, they will not be securing the will of the majority of the people, but they will be opening the way for a party caucus or a haphazard combination of parties to play the confidence trick.
  Mr. BARNSTON: I am somewhat disappointed that the Government have not seen their way to accept this moderate Amendment. What does the Amendment really mean? When the Second Chamber is practically reduced to a farce, and when
  1618
  the Prime Minister is unable to carry out the Preamble—because many of his followers have declared that they do not intend to let him do so—surely it is reasonable to ask that a great change shall not take place unless it is backed up by a substantial majority in this House. This Amendment will not affect the present Government as they are now because, unless the hon. Baronet for the St. Ives Division of Cornwall (Sir C. Cory) and the hon. Member for East Denbigh (Mr. John) join with some other Members against them, the Government would have the majority required. The position taken up by this Amendment, that measures when they leave this House must have a substantial majority behind them, is much more moderate than the position taken up by the Prime Minister himself a few years ago. The right hon. Gentleman yesterday laid great stress on speeches that he had made to his constituents. I find that speaking some few years ago he used these words:—
  "If the Irish Party is free and independent, so also, I venture to claim, is the Liberal Party. I hare for some time held the opinion, which I have expressed to you. my constituents, before now. that the Liberal Party ought not to assume the duties and the responsibilities of Government unless they could rely on an independent Liberal majority in the House of Commons."
  That was said when we had what we shall not have when this Bill is passed—a Second Chamber with a real Veto on legislation. We do not go so far as the Prime Minister went. We merely ask by this Amendment that, when we are living, as we shall be living, practically under Single-Chamber rule, great changes shall not take place unless they receive the stamp of the approval of a large majority in this House.
  Mr. HENRY TERRELL: I beg to move, as an Amendment to the proposed Amendment, to leave out the words "one hundred," and to insert instead thereof the words "two-thirds of the Members present and voting on the Third Reading."
  The point of the Amendment is simply that we should have some really substantial safeguard against legislation being passed by the force of a mere scratch majority in this House. We have been told over and over again that the object of this Bill is to secure that the will of the people shall prevail. But the will of the people is not always represented by a scratch majority in this House. On that point I would call attention to what the Prime Minister said on 11th April last year, when introducing the Resolutions which

  1619
  are the foundation of the Bill now before the House:—
  "I quite agree, and I acknowledged when I was speaking a fortnight ago on the Motion to go into Committee, that there are conceivable, and indeed actual, cases in which the decision of the House of Commons does not necessarily, and perhaps does not even presumptively, express that opinion. You might have a case, a conceivable case, of what is called a scratch majority combined together under the coercion or party exigencies for a particular and transient purpose."
  The Prime Minister called particular attention to that danger, and went on to say that they intended by the Bill to provide safeguards against such a scratch majority usurping the power which it was intended should be given to the people of this country. When the Prime Minister last Thursday was making his speech upon what he referred to as the Constitutional Amendments, he dealt with one of the dangers against which he sought to provide safeguards. One of the dangers was that this House might, and probably would, after the lapse of two years cease to represent the opinion of the majority of the electors of this country. For the purpose of providing against such a majority exercising the unlimited powers intended to be given to this House by this Bill, the Prime Minister provided, as he said safeguards. He said:—
  "The Government, carefully safeguarding, as they have done in this Bill the rights of the electors, have provided two special precautions against a House of Commons which has ceased to be representative in its character, carrying measures as to which there was no presumption that the constituencies approved of them. The first is the provision that after the second session of a new Parliament you cannot, under this Bill, take advantage of its machinery for overriding the veto of the House of Lords without a fresh election. The second is the shortening of the duration of Parliament from seven years to live, which in practice no doubt will be four years."
  The Prime Minister pointed out that the Bill introduced what he called safeguards against the exercise by any majority of this House of those great powers after that majority had ceased to represent the opinion of the people; but no where in his subsequent speeches after that speech last April, or in this Bill, is there to be found any reference whatever to any safeguard to prevent a danger which he himself pointed out in the exercise of these great powers by a scratch majority of this House. It is for the purpose of providing this safeguard that I venture to move this amendment. Safeguards, the Prime Minister himself has said, are necessary against the danger of which he has warned this House, but against which
  1620
  this Bill provides no safeguard. I do submit, therefore, to this Committee that it is absolutely necessary that some safeguards should be introduced, otherwise we can easily see what may arise. We may have that very thing, as in the past, and as the Prime Minister has said, when a scratch majority, elected for some transient and passing question, and not representative in any sense of the will of the people on other questions, would have power under this Bill, in this House, of passing any legislation they might like to do.
  Turn from that, and consider our own practice in regard, for instance, to local authorities. You will find that in connection with local authorities, when great questions affecting the locality have to be decided that a safeguard is always provided by the Legislature against a scratch majority passing any great measure of the sort. Take, again, Corporations coming to this House. We have among the Standing Orders that known as the Wharncliffe Standing Order, which provides that before any Corporation can come to this House and ask that its constitution shall be altered, there must be a majority of two-thirds of the ratepayers or constituents in favour of this alteration; and this before even the matter will be considered by this House. Turn to foreign countries. Take, say, the constitutions of our Dominions beyond the seas. You will find there again there are safeguards against the action of a scratch majority to which I have referred, and which was referred to by the Prime Minister. It is only in this country, and by this Bill, that it has ever been proposed to vest in one Single Chamber the great, unlimited, and absolutely uncontrolled power which this Bill would give to this House, without providing some kind of safeguard against the abuse of this power. I venture to appeal to hon. Gentlemen opposite, especially to those that perhaps I may call without offence the Moderato Liberals, and suggest that this is really a very serious and important question, one far above party, and a question which may have very far-reaching and possibly disastrous results in the future. I do entreat the Government's support in this matter, and the support of Members on the other side of the House to this Amendment, which, after all, only seeks to introduce a safeguard which would prevent the abuse of these powers in the circumstances which I have suggested. I beg to move.
  Viscount CASTLEREAGH: I am sorry that the hon. Gentleman who has just sat down has proposed the Amendment that he has, because I feel that the case is far better met by some specified and definite figure. In the original Amendment the figure of 100 is named. I am perfectly prepared to admit that I think that figure is too large. But may I ask the right hon. Gentleman the Prime Minister to name the figure which he believes would suit the case. The right hon. Gentleman is under a misapprehension if he thinks that he dealt with the Amendment on the preceding Clause. I had the honour of moving that Amendment, and I have a very vivid recollection of the attitude which the right hon. Gentleman took. He did not address himself for a moment to the principle of the Amendment on which I was addressing the House. He confined his arguments to heaping ridicule on the form in which the Amendment was drawn. I should like to have the right hon. Gentleman's attention for one moment.
  The PRIME MINISTER: Whose?
  Viscount CASTLEREAGH: Yours. When I moved the Amendment on the pre vious Clause the right hon. Gentleman, instead of directing his attention to the principle of the Amendment, did nothing but heap ridicule—
  The PRIME MINISTER: No, I did not.
  Viscount CASTLEREAGH: I have a vivid recollection of what took place. If the conclusive arguments which the right hon. Gentleman suggested on that occasion are still at the back of his mind, I am sure the House would be very grateful if he would put them forward, because in the speech that he did make he led us to believe that he had put forward all his arguments. This Amendment is one of substance. It certainly deserves more attention than the right hon. Gentleman has given to it. The Amendment stands, I am prepared to admit, possibly in a different relation to this Clause than to the previous Clause in the Bill, because in the previous Clause it would be possible to pass great financial measures into law by a really scratch majority; but I do not know that we are really in a very different case in respect of this Amendment, because we have seen the proportions to which the party system has attained in this House. I think that it is perfectly possible to realise that a Bill might be passed in three sessions by almost exactly the same majority by hon.
  1622
  Gentlemen who sit on the other side of the House, so rigid is the party discipline under which they are governed. I think it is certainly necessary, therefore, that some safeguard should be put into the Bill in respect of this consideration. The attitude of the Government is that under no circumstances will they legislate for possibilities. They say, "Oh, it is not likely that we shall do such a thing in the days that are to come; it is not likely that we shall pursue a course which the Opposition are endeavouring to pin us to."
  The CHAIRMAN: I think I must raise the question again as to whether we should discuss and decide the Amendment to the Amendment, or the Amendment itself; whether we should discuss the Amendment to the Amendment in the first place, and then discuss whatever form the original Amendment may take. I have interrupted the Noble Lord, because he has obviously spoken on the general question quite as much as on the Amendment to the Amendment.
  Viscount CASTLEREAGH: On the same point of Order, Mr. Emmott, I was following the precedent that when two similar amendments have not been discussed very long, either can be taken.
  The CHAIRMAN: That is done by consent on the understanding that a decision is arrived at on both matters about the same time. I would ask the Committee to give me some guidance upon the point.
  Sir F. BANBURY: They are practically the same thing.
  The PRIME MINISTER: I quite agree.
  Sir ROBERT FINLAY: Take both together.
  The CHAIRMAN: Very well.
  Viscount CASTLEREAGH: When you, Mr. Chairman, interrupted the proceedings, I was dealing with the attitude which the Government have taken throughout upon this Bill in this matter of legislative possibilities. They have had no other argument, but have said: "Oh, circumstances of that sort will not arise." I say when you are endeavouring to write a Constitution that you must legislate for possibilities, and you must place in the Constitution a definite provision in view of certain circumstances arising. It is for that reason that I support the Amendment which has been moved by my hon. Friend, who desires to lay down that no chance

  1623
  majority shall have the opportunity of passing a great measure into law. It is more than likely, as I have said, that, as we have seen in the past, a party majority may assume exactly the same proportions in three successive Sessions, and that that party majority, it may be under twenty, may pass a measure into law over the heads and without at all consulting the people of this country. In any Constitution, however you like to create it, this is an anomaly which it is the duty of the Government to provide against. I think that the Government will do well to accept the Amendment.
  5.0 P.M.
  Mr. STANLEY WILSON: I have listened to the arguments of the Prime Minister, and I have listened to the arguments of hon. Gentlemen on these benches. As usual, the Prime Minister has been completely defeated in argument. I am quite sure that any intelligent witness who has listened to this debate will agree that no argument brought forward by the Prime Minister will have any effect in leading to the defeat of this Amendment. Under those circumstances I hope it may be still possible at the eleventh hour to persuade the Prime Minister to reconsider his decision. I venture to say to him that unless this Amendment, or some Amendment of a similar character, is accepted that there is a very real danger of the avowed object of the Government being defeated. We take it that the avowed object of the Government is, as has been already stated from these benches, that the will of the people shall be given expression to. We all know how hon. Gentlemen opposite at the last General Election spoke. Their one cry was "Peers versus people." I should like to point out that it is quite possible that in some future Parliament a Government may pass some important measure by a small majority, as the Noble Lord who has just spoken has stated, by, it may be ten or twenty. It is quite possible that on the side of the minority of hon. Members voting in regard to that Bill there might be a majority of the electors of this country. It cannot possibly be the desire of the Government that that should be the case. Such a possibility, such a state of affairs, would be an absolute scandal. I should like to appeal to hon. Members who support the Government. We saw last night the hon. Member for Kirkcaldy (Sir H. Dalziel) and we have seen this afternoon the hon. Member for Salford (Mr. Byles) break the orgy of
  1624
  silence existing on the benches opposite ever since the commencement of the proceedings in Committee upon this bill. I think the moment has arisen for hon. Gentlemen opposite who talked so much of the will of the people at the last General Election to rise and make some statement with regard to their views upon the Amendment we are discussing at the present moment. I shall vote for that Amendment, at any rate, with the greatest possible pleasure.
  Sir FREDERICK BANBURY: I propose for a moment to deal with the last argument of the Prime Minister, namely, that it was quite right that when the House of Commons passed a Bill three Sessions, even by a majority of one, it should become law. His argument was that if the Liberal party had not that power the House of Lords would always be willing to pass Conservative measures when sent up to them. May I say that the Prime Minister, that, as he knows, it is quite wrong to attempt to do wrong simply because you think somebody else is going to do wrong. It is no justification for the right hon. Gentleman to say that he is going to propose something injurious because he fears the Unionist party would do something injurious in the future. Our desire, and the desire I am sure of the right hon. Gentleman in his heart, if the powers that be did not refuse to allow him to put it into operation, is to do something which would promote the prosperity of the country and in no way injure it; but passing from that for a moment, how does the right hon. Gentleman know the House of Lords would pass bad measures brought in by the Unionists if they were in power? What proof has he that such a contingency is possible? Personally I have been nearly as long in this House as the right hon. Gentleman and I do not remember the House of Lords passing a measure which was brought in by us which was bad and injurious to the country. An hon. Friend of mine showed that no less than twenty-six Conservative measures were amended by the House of Lords in the past twenty years. I see no foundation for supposing that anyone who sits on this side of the House is going, when their party comes into power, to propose injurious measures, or, if they did, that they would be passed by the House of Lords. I would also point out that the Preamble of the Bill comes in; I would ask the right hon. Gentleman is he aware

  1625
  that in every public company no alteration in the constitution of the company or in the articles of the company can be introduced without a certain fixed majority. I do not know what the majority is, but I suppose it is according to the particular articles of each company, and if that is good for a private company, surely it is good for the Constitution of the Empire, and therefore when we are making a new departure and doing something we have never done before, we ought to safeguard ourselves against the effects of small and chance majorities.
  The United States in their Constitution have been very careful to provide that a chance majority neither in the Congress or in the Senate shall have the power the right hon. Gentleman is desirous of giving to this House, and if that is good for a democratic country like America surely it would be good for this country to have the same power. I come to the particular Amendment of my hon. Friend. The principle of the two Amendments to my mind are the same, and I do not care really which is adopted, so long as some Amendment is adopted which would prevent a chance majority passing all sorts of laws that it may be impossible afterwards to repeal. Unless something of that sort is done, one does not know what may happen under this Bill if it becomes an Act. I may say I am not alone in my fear that the Government if they succeeded in passing this Bill may do something which will altogether alter the Constitution and future of this country. The right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor off the Duchy of Lancaster, speaking on 13th April, 1910, said it would be very easy to do certain things. He said:—
  "If the situation arose in which the House of Commons in its sixth session was under the impression that it was necessary that it should remain in power, and a Bill had previously been passed which contained words such as are suggested in the amendment, the course of the House of Commons in these circumstances would be very simple. It would only have to do two things. It would have to repeal what may be Septennial or a Quinquennial Act or any other Acts fixing the duration of Parliaments, and at the same time repeal the very words of this particular Bill, and it would be quite a simple process. It is certain that if they could repeal the Septennial Act they could also repeal at the same time any words appearing in this Bill, and if they could secure the passage through the House of Lords of a Bill repealing the Act they could also secure the passage of a measure repealing these words."
  Therefore it is perfectly clear that unless this Amendment is carried such changes as will alter the whole Constitution may be carried. The Chancellor of the Duchy went on to say:—
  "Let us conceive a House of Commons misrepresenting the people. I think they would be almost
  1626
  imbecile who can imagine the situation, but let us imagine a House of Commons determined during the first year to get rid of the prerogative of the Crown, say, in regard to the creation of Peers. All that Parliament would have to do would be first of all to repeal the section of a particular Act which gives the House of Lords power to prevent this change, and then they could at once proceed with the next and much more drastic step of abolishing the prerogative of the Crown."
  In these circumstances, and in view of that very explicit and candid statement by the Chancellor of the Duchy, there surely ought to be some Amendment of this sort accepted. I do not pin myself to one hundred or two-thirds of those present, but some Amendment ought to be accepted which shall provide, at any rate, that to accomplish any of these things anything like a chance majority should be provided against, and some reasonable number ought to be put in, in order that the House of Commons should come to a well-considered judgment before it proceeds to deal with Bills affecting the vital interests of the country.
  The argument of the hon. Member for Salford in favour of the rejection of the Amendment was not wise, because it amounted to this: that when Liberal Governments found they are losing their hold upon the country they immediately retire from office. They do not do anything of of the sort, because the very last act of the Government of 1902 was to bring in Welsh Disestablishment. What they do is to bring in a measure which they think will please the electors, and which would help to keep them in office, and it is most important that they should not be able in the days of their dwindling majorities to pass measures that may mollify that portion of the electorate that do not understand all matters in connection with the government of a great Empire, or that may allow themselves to be captivated by the eloquence of the Home Secretary or of the Chancellor of the Duchy. Under these circumstances, the best we can do is to see that the country is made aware of the fact that on this side of the House we are still more or less in our senses, and that we do not desire any House of Commons to be able to pass important measures except by a considerable majority of its Members.
  Mr. WYNDHAM: The arguments urged by the Prime Minister for the rejection of this Amendment are quite unsatisfactory. I do not propose to repeat any counter-arguments which have been adduced from this side of the House, but there were in the speech made by the right hon. Gentleman a number of

  1627
  Statements which demand and deserve criticism. I shall address myself to two, and to two only, which occurred to me. The right hon. Gentleman founded himself to a great extent upon the fact that a similar Amendment to the first Clause of this Bill had been rejected at an earlier stage of our proceedings in Committee. Yes, that is so; but the first Clause of this Bill dealt with Money Bills, and in the stress of the debates in Committee, the Government found themselves obliged, or were ready, if you like, to promise that they would still further define Money Bills. Contrast that with the attitude the Government have taken up in respect to that of Clause 2. Yesterday they committed the House, not only to the opposite policy of not attempting to define legislation in the different classes, but they absolutely refused to draw any distinction whatever under Clause 2 between one kind of Bill and another kind of Bill. A complete distinction is made between Clause 1 and Clause 2 by the very fact that the Government refuse to define or make any distinction under Clause 2, and, therefore, we are obliged to bring in this Amendment and other Amendments of a similar character. This Amendment does not represent what we consider the best way of dealing with this difficulty; the course we urged yesterday was a preferable one, that is to distinguish Bills of great magnitude, and say that they require special treatment; but when, under Clause 2, the Government refuse to take the course they took under Clause 1, and decline to make any distinction between Bills of various character, we say that it is necessary that these Amendments should be carefully considered. That is the first observation I think it my duty to make. I put the second point forward as an addition to the very forcible criticism urged by the hon. Member for Bootle. He pointed out that the Government could not appeal to precedent in this matter, because they are departing from precedent, and therefore their action must be judged on its merits alone. I would add to that argument that although the Government cannot appeal to the precedent of the past history of our own Constitution, there is a precedent, and a great corpus of precedents which might guide them, which are to be found in all other written Constitutions to which when they ask us to adopt a written Constitution they can cast their eye.
  Mr. HUME-WILLIAMS: The importance of this Amendment is that it constitutes an attempt to induce the Government to create a third class of Bills. Under the Parliament Bill there are two sharp divisions. First of all there are Bills which come under Clause 1 which are Finance Bills. Then under Clause 2 there are Bills which we are told represent the passionate desire of the country so fully felt and expressed in this House that they must go forth and become law whether the House of Lords approve of them or not. Under these circumstances I suggest that it is only reasonable there should be created a third class of Bills in regard to which there is no evidence that they are so passionately desired by the people. The whole foundation of the Parliament Bill, in fact, the whole excuse for it, is that Parliament represents the will of the people, that it reflects the desires of the people, and, therefore, an obstructive House of Lords should no longer be allowed to interfere with the will of the people. If this House really does reflect the will of the people, surely you cannot hesitate to apply to the proceedings of this House the same safeguards which you impose upon local authorities, and which you adopt in many relations of life when you are embarking upon the consideration of some really important things. The whole idea which underlies this Amendment is that you should really be sure, before you adopt the procedure of Clause 2, that the Bill to which it is to be applied is a reflex of the opinion of the people. You are going to reform the House of Lords. If you agree to create a third class of Bills which do not obtain the stipulated majority, whether it be two-thirds or any proportion you like, then you leave your reform of the House of Lords something to do in the future. Under this Bill, when the House of Lords is reformed it has to sit splendid but impotent, while Clause 2 is operative, to every Bill, and the House of Lords as far as we can make out in the future will have nothing to do but create delay which is irritating in the extreme. If you get a Bill which does not obtain a sufficient majority in the House of Commons to indicate that it is a real reflection on the then existing will of the people, why not leave that measure to your reformed House of Lords, thus leaving them something to do, and let those Bills which cannot obtain a majority of that kind pursue the normal course. The House of Lords ought to be left the power of considering those Bills and to say

  1629
  whether they approve of them or not. For those reasons I support the Amendment.
  The PRIME MINISTERrose in his place, and claimed to move, "That the Question be now put."
  Question put, "That the question be now put."
  The Committee divided: Ayes, 293; Noes, 182.

  Division No. 177.]

  AYES.

  [5.20 p.m.

  Abraham, William (Dublin Harbour)

  Elverston, Harold

  Lundon, Thomas

  Abraham, Rt. Hon. William (Rhondda)

  Esmonde, Dr. John (Tipperary, N.)

  Lyell, Charles Henry

  Acland, Francis Dyke

  Esmonde, Sir Thomas (Wexford, N.)

  Lynch, Arthur Alfred

  Adamson, William

  Essex, Richard Walter

  Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester)

  Addison, Dr. Christopher

  Falconer, James

  Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk Burghs)

  Agnew, Sir George William

  Fenwick, Charles

  Maclean, Donald

  Ainsworth, John Stirling

  Ferens, Thomas Robinson

  Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.

  Alden, Percy

  Ffrench, Peter

  MacNeill, John Gordon Swift

  Allen, Charles Peter (Stroud)

  Field, William

  MacVeagh, Jeremiah

  Asquith, Rt. Hon. Herbert Henry

  Fiennes, Hon. Eustace Edward

  M'Callum, John M.

  Baker, H. T. (Accrington)

  Fitzgibbon, John

  McKenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald

  Baker, Joseph Allen (Finsbury, E.)

  Flavin, Michael Joseph

  M'Laren, F. W. S. (Lincs., Spalding)

  Balfour, Sir Robert (Lanark)

  France, Gerald Ashburner

  M'Laren, Walter S. B. (Ches., Crewe)

  Barlow, Sir John Emmott (Somerset)

  Gelder, Sir W H.

  M'Micking, Major Gilbert

  Barnes, George N.

  Gill A. H.

  Manfield, Harry

  Barran, Sir J. N. (Hawick)

  Glanville, H. J.

  Markham, Arthur Basil

  Barran, Rowland Hirst (Leeds, N.)

  Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford

  Marshall, Arthur Harold

  Barry, Redmond John (Tyrone, N.)

  Goldstone, Frank

  Mason, David M. (Coventry)

  Barton, W.

  Greenwood, Granville G. (Peterborough)

  Masterman, C. F. G

  Beale, William Phipson

  Greig, Colonel James William

  Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.)

  Beauchamp, Edward

  Griffith, Ellis J.

  Meehan' Patrick A. (Queen's Co.)

  Beck, Arthur Cecil

  Guest, Major Hon. C. H. C. (Pembroke)

  Menzies, Sir Walter

  Benn W. (Tower Hamlets, St. Geo.)

  Gwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway)

  Millar, James Duncan

  Bentham, G. J.

  Hackett, John

  Molloy, Michael

  Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine

  Hall, Frederick (Normanton)

  Molteno, Percy Alport

  Black, Arthur W.

  Hancock, J. G.

  Money, L. G. Chiozza

  Boland, John Pius

  Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose)

  Montagu, Hon. E. s.

  Booth, Frederick Handel

  Hardie, J. Keir (Merthyr Tydvil)

  Mooney, John J

  Bowerman, C. W.

  Harmsworth, R. L.

  Morrell, Philip

  Boyle, Daniel (Mayo, North)

  Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale)

  Morton, Alpheus Cleophas

  Brace, William

  Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, W.)

  Muldoon, John

  Brady, Patrick Joseph

  Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N. E.)

  Munro, Robert

  Brocklehurst, William B.

  Haslam, James (Derbyshire)

  Munro-Ferguson, Rt. Hon. R. C.

  Brunner, John F. L.

  Havelock-Allan, Sir Henry

  Nannetti, Joseph P.

  Bryce, J. Annan

  Haworth, Arthur A.

  Needham, Christopher T.

  Burns, Rt. Hon. John

  Hayden, John Patrick

  Neilson, Francis

  Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas

  Hayward, Evan

  Nicholson, Charles N. (Doncaster)

  Buxton, Rt. Hon. S. C. (Poplar)

  Helme, Nerval Watson

  Nolan, Joseph

  Byles, William Pollard

  Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

  Norman, Sir Henry

  Carr-Gomm, H. W.

  Henry, Sir Charles S.

  Norton, Captain Cecil W.

  Cawley, Sir Frederick (Prestwich)

  Herbert, Col. Sir Ivor

  Nugent, Sir Walter Richard

  Cawley, H. T. (Lancs., Heywood)

  Higham, John Sharp

  O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

  Chancellor, Henry George

  Hinds, John

  O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.

  Chapple, Dr William Allen

  Hodge, John

  O'Connor T. P. (Liverpool).

  Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston S.

  Holt, Richard Burning

  O'Doherty, Philip

  Clancy, John Joseph

  Hope, John Deans (Haddington)

  O'Dowd, John

  Clough, William

  Howard, Hon. Geoffrey

  Ogden, Fred

  Clynes, John R.

  Hughes, Spencer Leigh

  O'Grady, James

  Collins, Godfrey P. (Greenock)

  Hunter, William (Lanark, Govan)

  O'Kelly, Edward P. (Wicklow, W.)

  Compton-Rickett, Rt. Hon. Sir J.

  Isaacs, Sir Rufus Isaacs

  O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N.)

  Condon, Thomas Joseph

  Jardine, Sir John (Roxburghshire)

  O'Malley, William

  Corbett, A. Cameron

  John, Edward Thomas

  O'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, S.)

  Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.

  Johnson, W.

  O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

  Cotton, William Francis

  Jones, Sir D. Brynmor (Swansea)

  O'Shee, James John

  Cowan, W. H.

  Jones, Edgar (Merthyr Tydvil)

  O'Sullivan, Timothy

  Crawshay-Williams, Eliot

  Jones, Leif Stratten (Notts, Rushcliffe)

  Palmer, Godfrey Mark

  Crooks, William

  Jones, William (Carnarvonshire)

  Parker, James Halifax

  Crumley, Patrick

  Jones, W. S. Glyn- (T. H'mts, Stepney)

  Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek)

  Cullinan, John

  Jowett, Frederick William

  Pearce, William (Limehouse)

  Dalziel, Sir James H. (Kirkcaldy)

  Joyce, Michael

  Pease, Rt. Hon. Joseph A. (Rotherham)

  Davies, Ellis William (Eifion)

  Keating, Matthew

  Phillips, John (Longford, S.)

  Davies, Timothy (Lincs., Louth)

  Kellaway Frederick George

  Pirie, Duncan Vernon

  Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.)

  Kelly, Edward

  Pointer, Joseph

  Davies, M. Vaughan- (Cardigan)

  Kennedy, Vincent Paul

  Pollard Sir George H.

  Dawes, J. A.

  Kilbride, Denis

  Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H.

  Delany, William

  Lamb, Ernest Henry

  Power, Patrick Joseph

  Denman, Hon. R. D.

  Lambert, George (Devon, Molton)

  Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central)

  Dewar, Sir J. A.

  Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade)

  Priestley, Sir W. E. B. (Bradford, E.)

  Dillon, John

  Lansbury, George

  Pringle, William M. R.

  Doris, William

  Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, West)

  Radford, George Heynes

  Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness)

  Lawson, Sir W. (Cumb'rld., Cockerm'th)

  Raffan, Peter Wilson

  Duncan, J. Hastings (York, Otley)

  Levy, Sir Maurice

  Raphael, Sir Herbert Henry

  Edwards, Allen C. (Glamorgan, E.)

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Rea, Rt. Hon. Russell (S. Shields)

  Edwards, Enoch (Hanley)

  Logan, John William

  Rea, Walter Russell (Scarborough)

  Elibank Rt. Hon. Master of

  Lough, Rt. Hon. Thomas

  Reddy, Michael

  Redmond, John E. (Waterford)

  Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.)

  White, Sir George (Norfolk)

  Redmond, William (Clara, E.)

  Snowden, Philip

  White, Sir Luke (York, E. R.)

  Richards, Thomas

  Spicer, Sir Albert

  White, Patrick (Meath, North)

  Richardson, Albion (Peckham)

  Stanley, Albert (Staffs., N. W.)

  Whitehouse, John Howard

  Richardson Thomas, (Whitehaven)

  Strauss, Edward A. (Southwark, West)

  Whittaker, Rt. Hon. Sir Thomas P.

  Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)

  Summers, James Woolley

  Whyte, A. F.

  Roberts, George H. (Norwich)

  Sutton, John E.

  Wiles, Thomas

  Roberts, Sir J. H. (Denbighs)

  Taylor, John W. (Durham)

  Wilkie, Alexander

  Robertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradford)

  Tennant, Harold John

  Williams, John (Glamorgan)

  Robinson, Sidney

  Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.)

  Williams, Penry (Middlesbrough)

  Roche, Augustine (Louth)

  Thomas, J. H. (Derby)

  Williamson, Sir A.

  Roe, Sir Thomas

  Thorne, William (West Ham)

  Wilson, Hon. G. G. (Hull, W.)

  Rowlands, James

  Ure, Rt. Hon. Alexander

  Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R.)

  Rowntree, Arnold

  Verney, Sir Harry

  Wilson, John (Durham, Mid)

  Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland)

  Walsh, Stephen (Lancs., Ince)

  Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)

  Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees)

  Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent)

  Winfrey, Richard

  Scanlan, Thomas

  Ward, W. Dudley (Southampton)

  Wood, T. M'Kinnon (Glasgow)

  Schwann, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles E.

  Wardle, George J.

  Young, Samuel (Cavan, East)

  Scott, A. MacCallum (Glasgow, Bridgeton)

  Waring, Walter

  Young, William (Perth, East)

  Sheehy, David

  Warner, Sir Thomas Courtenay

  Yoxall, Sir James Henry

  Sherwell, Arthur James

  Wason, Rt. Hon. E. (Clackmannan)

  Simon, Sir John Allsebrook

  Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney)

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr. Illingworth and Mr. Gulland.

  Smith, Albert (Lancs, Clitheroe)

  Watt, Henry A.

  Smith, H. B. Lees (Northampton)

  Wedgwood, Josiah C.

  NOES.

  Anson, Sir William Reynell

  Fisher, William Hayes

  Magnus, Sir Philip

  Anstruther-Gray, Major William

  Fleming, Valentine

  Malcolm, Ian

  Ashley, Wilfrid W.

  Fletcher, John Samuel (Hampstead)

  Mason, James F. (Windsor)

  Bagot, Lieut.-Colonel J.

  Forster, Henry William

  Middlemore, John Throgmorton

  Baird, John Lawrence

  Foster, Philip Staveley

  Mildmay, Francis Bingham

  Baker, Sir Randolf L. (Dorset, N.)

  Gardner, Ernest

  Mills, Hon. Charles Thomas

  Baldwin, Stanley

  Gastrell, Major W. Houghton

  Morrison-Bell, Major A. C. (Honiton)

  Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (City, Lond.)

  Gibbs, George Abraham

  Mount, William Arthur

  Banbury, Sir Frederick George

  Gilmour, Captain John

  Newdegate, F. A.

  Banner, John S. Harmood-

  Goldman, C. S.

  Newton, Harry Kottingham

  Barnston, H.

  Goldsmith, Frank

  Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield)

  Barrie, H. T. (Londonderry, N.)

  Gordon, John

  Nield, Herbert

  Bathurst, Charles (Wilts., Wilton)

  Goulding, Edward Alfred

  Norton-Griffiths, J.

  Beach, Hon. Michael Hugh Hicks

  Gretton, John

  O'Neill, Hon. A. E. B. (Antrim, Mid)

  Benn, Arthur Shirley (Plymouth)

  Guinness, Hon. Walter Edward

  Orde-Powlett, Hon. W. G. A.

  Benn, Ion Hamilton (Greenwich)

  Gwynne, R. S. (Sussex, Eastbourne)

  Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William

  Bennett-Goldney, Francis

  Haddock, George Bahr

  Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington)

  Bentinck, Lord Henry Cavendish

  Hall, Fred (Dulwich)

  Peel, Captain R. F. (Woodbridge)

  Bigland, Alfred

  Hambro, Angus Valdemar

  Peel, Hon. W. R. W. (Taunton)

  Bird, Alfred

  Hamersley, Alfred St. George

  Pole-Carew, Sir R.

  Boscawen, Col. A. S. T. Griffith.

  Hamilton, Lord C. J. (Kensington, S.)

  Pollock, Ernest Murray

  Boyle, W. Lewis (Norfolk, Mid)

  Hardy, Laurence

  Pryce-Jones, Col. E.

  Brassey, H. Leonard Campbell

  Harris, Henry Percy

  Ratcliff, R. F.

  Bridgeman, W. Clive

  Helmsley, Viscount

  Remnant, James Farquharson

  Bull, Sir William James

  Henderson, Major H. (Berkshire)

  Rice, Hon. Walter Fib-Uryan

  Burdett-Coutts, William

  Hickman, Col. Thomas E.

  Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall)

  Burn, Colonel C. R.

  Hill, Sir Clement L.

  Rolleston, Sir John

  Butcher, John George

  Hillier, Dr. Alfred Peter

  Ronaldshay, Earl of

  Carlile, Edward Hildred

  Hills, John Waller

  Rothschild, Lionel de

  Castlereagh, Viscount

  Hill-Wood, Samuel

  Samuel, Sir Harry (Norwood)

  Cator, John

  Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield)

  Sanders, Robert Arthur

  Cautley, Henry Strother

  Horner, Andrew Long

  Sanderson, Lancelot

  Cave, George

  Houston, Robert Paterson

  Scott, Leslie (Liverpool, Exchange)

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Hume-Williams, Wm. Ellis

  Smith, F. E. (Liverpool, Walton)

  Cecil, Lord Hugh (Oxford Univ.)

  Hunt, Rowland

  Spear, John Ward

  Chaloner, Colonel R. G. W.

  Ingleby, Holcombe

  Stanley, Hon. G. F. (Preston)

  Clay, Captain H. H. Spender

  Jardine, Ernest (Somerset, E.)

  Starkey, John Ralph

  Clive, Percy Archer

  Joynson-Hicks, William

  Staveley-Hill, Henry

  Cooper, Richard Ashmole

  Kebty-Fletcher, J. R.

  Steel-Maitland, A. D.

  Courthope, George Loyd

  Kerr-Smiley, Peter Kerr

  Stewart, Gershom

  Craig, Charles Curtis (Antrim, S.)

  Kerry, Earl of

  Strauss, Arthur (Paddington, North)

  Craig, Captain James (Down, E.)

  Kimber, Sir Henry

  Sykes, Alan John

  Craig, Norman (Kent, Thanet)

  Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement

  Talbot, Lord Edmund

  Craik, Sir Henry

  Kirkwood, John H. M.

  Terrell, George (Wilts, N. W.)

  Crichton-Stuart, Lord Ninian

  Larmor, Sir J.

  Terrell, Henry (Gloucester)

  Cripps, Sir Charles Alfred

  Law, Andrew Bonar (Bootle, Lancs.)

  Thomson, W. Mitchell- (Down, N.)

  Croft, Henry Page

  Lawson, Hon. H. (T. H'mts., Mile End)

  Thynne, Lord Alexander

  Dalrymple, Viscount

  Locker-Lampson, G. (Salisbury)

  Tobin, Alfred Aspinall

  Dickson, Rt. Hon. C. Scott

  Locker-Lampson, O. (Ramsey)

  Touche, George Alexander

  Dixon, Charles Harvey

  Lockwood, Rt. Hon. Lt.-Col. A. R.

  Tryon, Capt. George Clement

  Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers

  Long, Rt. Hon. Walter

  Valentia, Viscount

  Duke, Henry Edward

  Lonsdale, John Brownlee

  Walker, Col. William Hall

  Eyres-Monsell, Bolton M.

  Lowther, Claude (Cumberland, Eskdale)

  Ward, Arnold (Herts, Watford)

  Faber, Captain W. V. (Hante, W.)

  Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. A. (S. Geo. Han. S.)

  War de, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid)

  Falle, Bertram Godfray

  Lyttelton, Hon. J. C. (Droitwich)

  Wheler Granville C. H.

  Fell, Arthur

  MacCaw, Wm. J. MacGeagh

  White, Major G. D. (Lancs., Southport)

  Finlay, Sir Robert

  M'Mordie, Robert

  Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.)

  1632

  1633

  Willoughby, Major Hon. Claude

  Worthington-Evans, L.

  Younger, George

  Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E. R.)

  Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart.

  Wolmer, Viscount

  Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr. Cassel and Mr. Lane-Fox.

  Wood, Hon. E. F. L. (Yorks, Ripon)

  Yate, Colonel C. E.

  Wood, John (Stalybridge)

  Yorburgh, Robert

  Question, "That the words 'one hundred' stand part of the proposed Amendment," put, and agreed to.

  Question put, "That the words 'with a
  majority of at least one hundred' be there inserted."
  The Committee divided: Ayes, 184; Noes, 298.

  Division No. 178.]

  AYES.

  [5.40 p.m.

  Anson, Sir William Reynell

  Gastrell, Major W. Houghton

  Newton, Harry Kottingham

  Anstruther-Gray, Major William

  Gibbs, George Abraham

  Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield)

  Ashley, Wilfrid W.

  Gilmour, Captain John

  Nield, Herbert

  Bagot, Lieut.-Col. J.

  Goldman, C. S.

  Norton-Griffiths, J. (Wednesbury)

  Baird, John Lawrence

  Goldsmith, Frank

  O'Neill, Hon. A. E. B. (Antrim, Mid)

  Baker, Sir Randolf L. (Dorset, N.)

  Gordon, J.

  Orde-Powlett, Hon. W. G. A.

  Baldwin, Stanley

  Goulding, Edward Alfred

  Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William

  Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (City Lond.)

  Gretton, John

  Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington)

  Banbury, Sir Frederick George

  Guinness, Hon. W. E.

  Peel, Capt. R. F. (Woodbridge)

  Banner, John S. Harmood-

  Gwynne, R. S. (Sussex, Eastbourne)

  Peel, Hon. William R. W. (Taunton)

  Barnston, Harry

  Haddock, George Bahr

  Pole-Carew, Sir R.

  Barrie, H. T. (Londonderry, N.)

  Hall, Fred (Dulwich)

  Pollock, Ernest Murray

  Bathurst, Charles (Wilts, Wilton)

  Hambro, Angus Valdemar

  Pryce-Jones, Col. E. (Montgom'y B'ghs.)

  Beach, Hon. Michael Hugh Hicks

  Hamersley, Alfred St. George

  Ratcliff, R. F.

  Benn, Arthur Shirley (Plymouth)

  Hamilton, Lord C. J. (Kensington, S.)

  Remnant, James Farquharson

  Benn, Ion Hamilton (Greenwich)

  Hardy, Laurence (Kent, Ashford)

  Rice, Hon. Walter Fitz-Uryan

  Bennett-Goldney, Francis

  Harris, Henry Percy

  Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall)

  Bentinck, Lord Henry Cavendish.

  Helmsley, Viscount

  Rolleston, Sir John

  Bigland, Alfred

  Henderson, Major H. (Berks., Abingdon)

  Ronaldshay, Earl of

  Bird, Alfred

  Hickman, Colonel Thomas E.

  Rothschild, Lionel D.

  Boscawen, Sackville T. Griffith.

  Hill, Sir Clement L. (Shrewsbury)

  Samuel, Sir Harry (Norwood)

  Boyle, W. Lewis (Norfolk, Mid)

  Hillier, Dr. Alfred Peter

  Sanders, Robert A.

  Brassey, H. Leonard Campbell

  Hills, John Waller (Durham)

  Sanderson, Lancelot

  Bridgeman, William Clive

  Hill-Wood, Samuel

  Scott, Leslie (Liverpool, Exchange)

  Bull, Sir William James

  Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield)

  Smith, F. E. (Liverpool, Walton)

  Burdett-Coutts, William

  Horner, Andrew Long

  Spear, John Ward

  Burn, Colonel C. R.

  Houston, Robert Paterson

  Stanley, Hon. G. F. (Preston)

  Butcher, John George

  Hume-Williams, William Ellis

  Starkey, John Ralph

  Carlile, Edward Hildred

  Hunt, Rowland

  Staveley-Hill, Henry

  Cassel, Felix

  Ingleby, Holcombe

  Steel-Maitland, A. D.

  Cator, John

  Jardine, Ernest (Somerset, E.)

  Stewart, Gershom

  Cautley, Henry Strother

  Joynson-Hicks, William

  Strauss, Arthur (Paddington, North)

  Cave, George

  Kebty-Fletcher, J. R.

  Swift, Rigby

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Kerr-Smiley Peter Kerr

  Sykes, Alan John

  Cecil, Lord Hugh (Oxford Univ.)

  Kerry, Earl of

  Talbot, Lord Edmund

  Chaloner, Col. R. G. W.

  Kimber, Sir Henry

  Terrell, George (Wilts, N. W.)

  Clay, Captain H. H. Spender

  Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement

  Thomson, W. Mitchell (Down, N.)

  Clive, Percy Archer

  Kirkwood, John H. M.

  Thynne, Lord Alexander

  Cooper, Richard Ashmole

  Lane-Fox, G. R.

  Tobin, Alfred Aspinall

  Courthope, George Loyd

  Larmor, Sir J.

  Touche, George Alexander

  Craig, Charles Curtis (Antrim, S.)

  Law, Andrew Bonar (Bootle, Lancs.)

  Tryon, Captain George Clement

  Craig, Captain James (Down, E.)

  Lawson, Hon. H (T. H'mts, Mile End)

  Valentia, Viscount

  Craig, Norman (Kent, Thanet)

  Locker-Lampson, G. (Salisbury)

  Walker, Col. William Hall

  Craik, Sir Henry

  Locker-Lampson, O. (Ramsey)

  Ward, A. S. (Herts, Watford)

  Crichton-Stuart, Lord Ninian

  Lockwood, Rt. Hon. Lt.-Col. A. R.

  Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid)

  Cripps, Sir Charles Alfred

  Long, Rt. Hon. Walter

  Wheler, Granville C. H.

  Croft, Henry Page

  Lonsdale, John Brownlee

  White, Major G. D. (Lancs., Southport)

  Dalrymple, Viscount

  Lowther, Claude (Cumberland, Eskdale)

  Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.)

  Dickson, Rt. Hon. C. Scott

  Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. A. (S. Geo. Han. S.)

  Willoughby, Major Hon. Claude

  Dixon, Charles Harvey

  Lyttelton, Hon. J. C. (Wor., Droitwich)

  Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E. R.)

  Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

  MacCaw, William J. MacGeagh

  Wolmer, Viscount

  Duke, Henry Edward

  Mackinder, Halford J.

  Wood, Hon. E. F. L. (Ripon)

  Evres-Monsell, Bolton M.

  M'Mordie, Robert James

  Wood, John (Stalybridge)

  Faber, Capt. W. V. (Hants, W.)

  Magnus, Sir Philip

  Worthington-Evans, L.

  Falle, Bertram Godfray

  Malcolm, Ian

  Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart.

  Fell, Arthur

  Mason, James F. (Windsor)

  Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

  Finlay, Sir Robert

  Middlemore, John Throgmorton

  Yate, Colonel C. E.

  Fisher, William Hayes

  Mildmay, Francis Bingham

  Yerburgh, Robert

  Fleming, Valentine

  Mills, Hon. Charles Thomas

  Younger, George

  Fletcher, John Samuel (Hampstead)

  Morrison-Bell, Major A. C. (Honiton)

  Forster, Henry William

  Mount, William Arthur

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Viscount

  Foster, Philip Staveley

  Newdegate, F. A.

  Castlereagh and Mr. Henry Terrell.

  Gardner, Ernest

  NOES.

  Abraham, William (Dublin Harbour)

  Addison, Dr. C.

  Alden, Percy

  Abraham, Rt. Hon. William (Rhondda)

  Agar-Robartes, Hon. T. C. R.

  Allen, Arthur Acland (Dumbartonshire)

  Acland, Francis Dyke

  Agnew, Sir George William

  Allen, Charles Peter (Stroud)

  Adamson, William

  Ainsworth, John Stirling

  Asquith, Rt. Hon. Herbert Henry

  Baker, Harold T. (Accrington)

  Griffith, Ellis Jones

  Morton, Alpheus Cleophas

  Baker, Joseph Allen (Finsbury, E.)

  Guest, Major Hon. C. H. c (Pembroke)

  Muldoon, John

  Balfour, Sir Robert (Lanark)

  Gwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway)

  Munro, Robert

  Barlow, Sir John Emmott (Somerset)

  Hackett, J.

  Munro-Ferguson, Rt. Hon. R. C.

  Barnes, George N.

  Hall, F. (Yorks, Normanton)

  Nannetti, Joseph P.

  Barran, Sir John N. (Hawick B.)

  Hancock, John George

  Needham, Christopher T.

  Barran, Rowland Hirst (Leeds, N.)

  Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose)

  Neilson, Francis

  Barry, Redmond John (Tyrone, N.)

  Hardie, J. Keir (Merthyr Tydvil)

  Nicholson, Charles N. (Doncaster)

  Barton, William

  Harmsworth, R. L.

  Nolan, Joseph

  Beale, William Phipson

  Harvey, A. G C. (Rochdale)

  Norman, Sir Henry

  Beauchamp, Edward

  Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, West)

  Norton, Captain Cecil William

  Beck, Arthur Cecil

  Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N. E.)

  Nugent, Sir Walter Richard

  Benn, W. W. (T. H'mts., St. George)

  Haslam, James (Derbyshire)

  O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

  Bentham, George Jackson

  Havelock-Allan, Sir Henry

  O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)

  Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine

  Haworth, Arthur A.

  O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)

  Black, Arthur W.

  Hayden, John Patrick

  O'Doherty, Philip

  Boland, John Pius

  Hayward, Evan

  O'Dowd, John

  Booth, Frederick Handel

  Helme, Norval Watson

  Ogden, Fred

  Bowerman, Charles W.

  Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

  O'Grady, James

  Boyle, Daniel (Mayo, North)

  Henderson, J. M. (Aberdeen, W.)

  O'Kelly, Edward P. (Wicklow, W. J

  Brace, William

  Henry, Sir Charles S.

  O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N.)

  Brady, Patrick Joseph

  Herbert, Col. Sir Ivor

  O'Malley, William

  Brocklehurst, William B.

  Higham, John Sharp

  O'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, S.

  Brunner, John F. L.

  Hinds, John

  O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

  Bryce, J. Annan

  Hodge, John

  O'Shee, James John

  Burns, Rt. Hon. John

  Holt, Richard Durning

  O'Sullivan, Timothy

  Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas

  Hope, John Deans (Haddington)

  Palmer, Godfrey Mark

  Buxton, Rt. Hon. S. C. (Poplar)

  Howard, Hon. Geoffrey

  Parker, James (Halifax)

  Byles, William Pollard

  Hughes, Spencer Leigh

  Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek)

  Carr-Gomm, H. W.

  Hunter, W. (Govan)

  Pearce, William (Limehouse)

  Cawley, Sir Frederick (Prestwich)

  Isaacs, Sir Rufus Daniel

  Pease, Rt. Hon. Joseph A. (Rotherham)

  Cawley, H. T. (Lancs., Heywood)

  Jardine, Sir J. (Roxburgh)

  Philipps, Col. Ivor (Southampton)

  Chancellor, Henry George

  John, Edward Thomas

  Phillips, John (Longford, S.)

  Chapple, Dr. William Allen

  Johnson, William

  Plrie, Duncan V.

  Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston S.

  Jones, Sir D. Brynmor (Swansea)

  Pointer, Joseph

  Clancy, John Joseph

  Jones, Edgar R. (Merthyr Tydvil)

  Pollard, Sir George H.

  Clough, William

  Jones, Leif Stratten (Notts, Rushcliffe)

  Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H.

  Clynes, John R.

  Jones, William (Ca narvonshire)

  Power, Patrick Joseph

  Collins, Godfrey P. (Greenock)

  Jones, W. S. Glyn. (T. H'mts, Stepney)

  Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central)

  Compton-Rickett, Rt. Hon. Sir J.

  Jowett, Frederick William

  Priestley, Sir W. E. B. (Bradford, E.)

  Condon, Thomas Joseph

  Joyce, Michael

  Pringle, William M. R.

  Corbett, A. Cameron

  Keating, Matthew

  Radford, George Heynes

  Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.

  Kellaway, Frederick George

  Raffan, Peter Wilson

  Cotton, William Francis

  Kelly, Edward

  Raphael, Sir Herbert Henry

  Cowan, W. H.

  Kennedy, Vincent Paul

  Rea, Rt. Hon. Russell (South Shields)

  Crawshay-Williams, Eliot

  Kilbride, Denis

  Rea, Walter Russell (Scarborough)

  Crooks, William

  Lamb, Ernest Henry

  Reddy, Michael

  Crumley, Patrick

  Lambert, George (Devon, S. Molton)

  Redmond, John E. (Waterford)

  Cullinan, John

  Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade)

  Richards, Thomas

  Dalziel, Sir James H. (Kirkcaldy)

  Lansbury, George

  Richardson, Albion (Peckham)

  Davies, Ellis William (Eifion)

  Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, West)

  Richardson, Thomas (Whitehaven)

  Davies, Timothy (Lincs., Louth)

  Lawson, Sir W. (Cumb'rld., Cockerm'th)

  Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)

  Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.)

  Levy, Sir Maurice

  Roberts, George H. (Norwich)

  Davies, M. Vaughan- (Cardigan)

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Roberts, Sir J. H. (Denbighs)

  Dawes, James Arthur

  Logan, John William

  Robertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradford)

  Delany, William

  Lough, Rt. Hon. Thomas

  Robinson, Sydney

  Denman, Hon. Richard Douglas

  Lundon, Thomas

  Roche, Augustine (Louth)

  Dewar, Sir J. A.

  Lyell, Charles Henry

  Roe, Sir Thomas

  Dillon, John

  Lynch, Arthur Alfred

  Rowlands, James

  Doris, W.

  Macdonald, J. Ramsay (Leicester)

  Rowntree, Arnold

  Duffy, William J.

  Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk Burghs)

  Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter

  Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness)

  Maclean, Donald

  Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland)

  Duncan, J. Hastings (York, Otley)

  Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.

  Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees)

  Edwards, Allen C. (Glamorgan, E.)

  MacNeill, John Gordon Swift

  Scanlan, Thomas

  Edwards, Enoch (Hanley)

  MacVeagh, Jeremiah

  Schwann, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles E.

  Elibank, Rt. Hon. Master of

  M'Callum, John M.

  Scott, A. MacCallum (Glasgow, Bridgeton)

  Elverston, Harold

  McKenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald

  Sheeny, David

  Esmonde, Dr. John (Tipperary, N.)

  M'Laren, F. W. S. (Lincs., Spalding)

  Sherwell, Arthur James

  Essex, Richard Walter

  M'Laren, Walter S. B. (Ches., Crewe)

  Simon, Sir John Allsebrook

  Falconer, James

  M'Micking, Major Gilbert

  Smith, Albert (Lancs., Clitheroe)

  Fenwick, Charles

  Manfield, Harry

  Smith, H. B. Lees (Northampton)

  Ferens, T. R.

  Markham, Arthur Basil

  Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, N.)

  Ffrench, Peter

  Marshall, Arthur Harold

  Snowden, Philip

  Field, William

  Mason, David M. (Coventry)

  Spicer, Sir Albert

  Fiennes, Hon. Eustace Edward

  Masterman, C. F. G.

  Stanley, Albert (Staffs., N. W.)

  Fitzgibbon, John

  Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.)

  Strauss, Edward A. (Southwark, West)

  Flavin, Michael Joseph

  Meehan, Patrick A. (Queen's Co.)

  Summers, James Woolley

  France, Gerald Ashburner

  Menzies, Sir Walter

  Sutton, John E.

  Gelder, Sir William Alfred

  Millar, James Duncan

  Taylor, John W. (Durham)

  Gill, Alfred Henry

  Molloy, Michael

  Tennant, Harold John

  Glanville, H. J.

  Molteno, Percy Alport

  Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.)

  Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford

  Money, L. G. Chiozza

  Thomas, James Henry (Derby)

  Goldstone, Frank

  Montagu, Hon. E. S.

  Thorne, William (West Ham)

  Greenwood, Granville G. (Peterborough)

  Mooney, John J.

  Ure, Rt. Hon. Alexander

  Greig, Colonel J. W.

  Morrell, Philip

  Verney, Sir Harry

  1636

  1637

  Walsh, Stephen (Lancs., Ince)

  White, Sir Luke (York, E. R.)

  Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R.)

  Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent)

  White, Patrick (Meath, North)

  Wilson, John (Durham, Mid)

  Ward, W. Dudley (Southampton)

  Whitehouse, John Howard

  Wilson, w. T. (West Houghton)

  Wardle, George J.

  Whittaker, Rt. Hon. Sir Thomas P.

  Winfrey, Richard

  Waring, Walter

  Whyte, A. F. (Perth)

  Wood, T. M'Kinnon (Glasgow)

  Warner, Sir Thomas Courtenay

  Wiles, Thomas

  Young, Samuel (Cavan, East)

  Wason, Rt. Hon. E. (Clackmannan)

  Wilkie, Alexander

  Young, William (Perth, East)

  Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney)

  Williams, John (Glamorgan)

  Yoxall, Sir James Henry

  Watt, Henry A.

  Williams, Penry (Middlesbrough)

  Wedgwood, Josiah C.

  Williamson, Sir A.

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr. Illingworth and Mr. Gulland.

  White, Sir George (Norfolk)

  Wilson, Hon. G. G. (Hull, W.)

  The PRIME MINISTER: I beg to move that with respect to the wording of the Clause down to the word "Bill" ["a Bill shall be deemed to be a Bill"] at the beginning of Sub-section (3) the Chair be empowered to select the Amendment to be proposed.
  Question put, "That with respect to the wording of the Clause down to the word 'Bill' in the first line of Sub-section (3) the Chair be empowered to select the Amendments to be proposed."
  Mr. MITCHELL-THOMSON (seated and wearing his hat): You have put the question down to the word 'Bill' in line 35. May I call your attention to the fact
  that the word "Bill" occurs twice in that line. To which of the two does the Motion refer?
  The CHAIRMAN: We had better take the first word.
  Mr. JAMES HOPE(seated and wearing his hat): I beg to call attention to the fact that the Bill is misprinted, and that what you call line 35 is line 34.
  The CHAIRMAN: It is in line 35 that the two words occur. It is the fact that in a number of copies of the Bill the lines have been incorrectly numbered.
  The Committee divided: Ayes, 293; Noes, 183.

  Division No. 179.]

  AYES.

  [5.45 p.m.

  Abraham, William (Dublin Harbour)

  Clough, William

  Glanville, Harold James

  Abraham, Rt. Hon. William Rhondda)

  Clynes, John R.

  Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford

  Acland, Francis Dyke

  Collins, Godfrey P. (Greenock)

  Goldstone, Frank

  Adamson, William

  Compton-Rickett, Rt. Hon. Sir J.

  Greenwood, Granville G. (Peterborough)

  Addison, Dr. Christopher

  Condon, Thomas Joseph

  Greig, Colonel J. W.

  Agnew, Sir George William

  Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow)

  Griffith, Ellis J. (Anglesey)

  Ainsworth, John Stirling

  Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.

  Guest, Major Hon. C. H. C. (Pembroke)

  Alden, Percy

  Cotton, William Francis

  Gwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway)

  Allen, Arthur A. (Dumbarton)

  Cowan, W. H.

  Hackett, John

  Allen, Charles P. (Stroud)

  Crawshay-Williams, Eliot

  Hall, Frederick (Normanton)

  Asquith, Rt. Hon. Herbert Henry

  Crooks, William

  Hancock, J. G

  Baker, H. T. (Accrington)

  Crumley, Patrick

  Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose)

  Baker, Joseph A. (Finsbury, E.)

  Cullinan, J.

  Hardle, J. Keir

  Balfour, Sir Robert (Lanark)

  Dalziel, Sir James H. (Kirkcaldy)

  Harmsworth, R. L.

  Barlow, Sir John Emmott (Somerset)

  Davies, Ellis William (Eifion)

  Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale)

  Barran, Sir J. (Hawick)

  Davies, Timothy (Lincs., Louth)

  Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, West)

  Barran, Rowland Hirst (Leeds, N.)

  Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.)

  Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N. E.)

  Barry, Redmond John (Tyrone, N.)

  Davies, M. Vaughan- (Cardigan)

  Havelock-Allan, Sir Henry

  Barton, William

  Dawes, James Arthur

  Haworth, Arthur A.

  Beale, W. P.

  Delany, William

  Hayden, John Patrick

  Beauchamp, Edward

  Denman, Hon. Richard Douglas

  Hayward, Evan

  Beck, Arthur Cecil

  Dewar, Sir J. A. (Inverness-shire)

  Helme, Norval Watson

  Benn, W. W. (Tower Hamlets, St. Geo.)

  Dillon, John

  Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

  Bentham, George Jackson

  Doris, William

  Henderson, J. M'D. (Aberdeen, W.)

  Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine

  Duffy, William J.

  Henry, Sir Charles Solomon

  Black, Arthur W.

  Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness)

  Herbert, Col. Sir Ivor

  Boland, John Plus

  Duncan, J. Hastings (York, Otley)

  Higham, John Sharp

  Booth, Frederick Handel

  Edwards, Allen C. (Glamorgan, E.)

  Hinds, John

  Bowerman, Charles W.

  Edwards, Enoch (Hanley)

  Hodge, John

  Boyle, D. (Mayo, N.)

  Elibank, Rt. Hon. Master of

  Holt, Richard Durning

  Brace, William

  Elverston, Harold

  Hope, John Deans (Haddington)

  Brady, Patrick Joseph

  Esmonde, Dr John (Tipperary, N.)

  Howard, Hon. Geoffrey

  Brocklehurst, William B.

  Esmonde, Sir Thomas (Wexford, N.)

  Hughes, Spencer Leigh

  Brunner, John F. L.

  Essex, Richard Walter

  Hunter, W. (Govan)

  Bryce, J. Annan

  Falconer, James

  Isaacs, Sir Rufus Daniel

  Burns, Rt. Hon. John

  Fenwick, Charles

  Jardine, Sir J. (Roxburgh)

  Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas

  Ferens, Thomas Robinson

  John, Edward Thomas

  Byles, William Pollard

  Ffrench, Peter

  Johnson, William

  Carr-Gomm, H. W.

  Field, William

  Jones, Sir D. Brynmor (Swansea)

  Cawley, Sir Frederick (Prestwich)

  Fiennes, Hon. Eustace Edward

  Jones, Edgar (Merthyr Tydvil)

  Cawley, H. T. (Lancs., Heywood)

  Fitzgibbon, John

  Jones, Leif Stratten (Notts, Rushcliffe)

  Chancellor, Henry George

  Flavin, Michael Joseph

  Jones, William (Carnarvonshire)

  Chapple, Dr. William Allen

  France, G. A.

  Jones, W. S. Glyn. (T. H'mts., Stepney)

  Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston S.

  Gelder, Sir William Alfred

  Jowett, F. W.

  Clancy, John Joseph

  Gill, A. H.

  Joyce, Michael

  Keating, Matthew

  Norton, Capt. Cecil W.

  Schwann, Rt. Hon. Sir C. E.

  Kellaway, Frederick George

  Nugent, Sir Walter Richard

  Scott, A. MacCallum (Glasgow, Bridgeton)

  Kelly, Edward

  O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

  Sheehy, David

  Kennedy, Vincent Paul

  O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)

  Sherwell, Arthur James

  Kilbride, Denis

  O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)

  Simon, Sir John Allsebrook

  Lamb, Ernest Henry

  O'Doherty, Philip

  Smith, Albert (Lancs., Clitheroe)

  Lambert, Gorge (Devon, Molton)

  O'Dowd, John

  Smith, H. B. L. (Northampton)

  Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade)

  Ogden, Fred

  Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.)

  Lansbury, George

  O'Grady, James

  Snowden, P.

  Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, West)

  O'Kelly, Edward P. (Wickiow, W.)

  Spicer, Sir Albert

  Lawson, Sir W. (Cumb'rl'nd, Cockerm'th)

  O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N.)

  Stanley, Albert (Staffs, N. W.)

  Levy, Sir Maurice

  O'Malley, William

  Strauss, Edward A. (Southwark, West)

  Lewis, John Herbert

  O'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, S.)

  Summers, James Woolley

  Logan, John William

  O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

  Sutton, John E.

  Lough, Rt. Hon. Thomas

  O'Shee, James John

  Taylor, John W. (Durham)

  Lundon, Thomas

  O'Sullivan, Timothy

  Tennant, Harold John

  Lyell, Charles Henry

  Palmer, Godfrey Mark

  Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.)

  Lynch, Arthur Alfred

  Parker, James (Halifax)

  Thomas, J. H. (Derby)

  Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester)

  Pearce, Robert (Staffs., Leek)

  Thorne, William (West Ham)

  Macdonald, J M. (Falkirk Burghs)

  Pearce, William (Limehouse)

  Ure, Rt. Hon. Alexander

  Maclean, Donald

  Pease, Rt. Hon. Joseph A. (Rotherham)

  Verney, Sir Harry

  Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.

  Philipps, Col. Ivor (Southampton)

  Walsh, Stephen (Lancs., Ince)

  MacNeill, John Gordon Swift

  Phillips, John (Longford, S.)

  Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent)

  MacVeagh, Jeremiah

  Pirie, Duncan V.

  Ward, W. Dudley (Southampton)

  M'Callum, John M.

  Pointer, Joseph

  Wardle, George J.

  McKenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald

  Pollard, Sir George H.

  Waring, Walter

  M'Laren, F. W. S. (Lincs., Spalding)

  Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H.

  Warner, Sir Thomas Courtenay

  M'Laren, Walter S. B. (Ches., Crewe)

  Power, Patrick Joseph

  Wason, Rt. Hen. E. (Clackmannan)

  M'Micking, Major Gilbert

  Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central)

  Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney)

  Manfield, Harry

  Priestley, Sir W. E. B. (Bradford, E.)

  Watt, Henry A.

  Markham, Arthur Basil

  Pringle, William M. R.

  White, Sir George (Norfolk)

  Marshall, Arthur Harold

  Radford, George Heynes

  White, Sir Luke (York, E. R.)

  Mason, David M. (Coventry)

  Raffan, Peter Wilson

  White, Patrick (Meath, North)

  Masterman, C. F. G.

  Raphael, Sir Herbert Henry

  Whitehouse, John Howard

  Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.)

  Rea, Rt. Hon. Russell (South Shields)

  Whittaker, Rt. Hon. Sir Thomas P.

  Meehan, Patrick A. (Queen's Co.)

  Rea, Walter Russell (Scarborough)

  Whyte, Alexander F. (Perth)

  Menzies, Sir Walter

  Reddy, Michael

  Wiles, Thomas

  Millar, James Duncan

  Redmond, John E. (Waterford)

  Wilkie, Alexander

  Molloy, M.

  Richards, Thomas

  Williams, John (Glamorgan)

  Molteno, Percy Alport

  Richardson, Albion (Peckham)

  Williams, Penry (Middlesbrough)

  Money, L. G. Chiozza

  Richardson, Thomas (Whitehaven)

  Williamson, Sir A.

  Montagu, Hon. E. S.

  Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)

  Wilson, Hon G. G. (Hull, W.)

  Mooney, John J.

  Roberts, George H. (Norwich)

  Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R.)

  Worrell, Philip

  Roberts, Sir J. H. (Denbighs.)

  Wilson, John (Durham, Mid)

  Morton, Alpheus Cleophas

  Robertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradford)

  Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)

  Muldoon, John

  Robinson, Sidney

  Winfrey, Richard

  Munro, Robert

  Roche, Augustine (Louth)

  Wood, T. M'Kinnon (Glasgow)

  Munro-Ferguson, Rt. Hon. R. C.

  Roe, Sir Thomas

  Young, Samuel (Cavan, E.)

  Nannetti, Joseph P.

  Rowlands, James

  Young, William (Perth, East)

  Needham, Christopher T.

  Rowntree, Arnold

  Yoxall, Sir James Henry

  Neilson, Francis

  Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter

  Nicholson, Charles N. (Doncaster)

  Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland)

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr. Illingworth and Mr. Gulland.

  Nolan, Joseph

  Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees)

  Norman, Sir Henry

  Scanlan, Thomas

  NOES.

  Anson, Sir William Reynell

  Cassel, Felix

  Fell, Arthur

  Anstruther-Gray, Major William

  Castlereagh, Viscount

  Finlay, Sir Robert

  Ashley, W. W.

  Cator, John

  Fisher, William Hayes

  Bagot, Lieut.-Colonel J.

  Cautley, H. S.

  Flannery, Sir J. Fortescue

  Baird, John Lawrence

  Cave, George

  Fleming, Valontine

  Baker, Sir R. L. (Dorset, N.)

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Fletcher, John Samuel (Hampstead)

  Baldwin, Stanley

  Cecil, Lord Hugh (Oxford University)

  Foster, Philip Staveley

  Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (City, Lond.)

  Chaloner, Col. R. G. W.

  Gardner, Ernest

  Banbury, Sir Frederick George

  Clay, Captain H. H. Spender

  Gastrell, Major W. H.

  Banner, John S. Harmood-

  Clive, Percy Archer

  Gibbs, George Abraham

  Barnston, H.

  Cooper, Richard Ashmole

  Gilmour, Captain John

  Barrio, H. T. (Londonderry, N.)

  Courthope, George Loyd

  Goldman, C. S.

  Bathurst, Charles (Wilts., Wilton)

  Craig, Charles Curtis (Antrim, S.)

  Goldsmith, Frank

  Benn, Arthur Shirley (Plymouth)

  Craig, Captain James (Down, E.)

  Gordon, John

  Benn, Ion Hamilton (Greenwich)

  Craig, Norman (Kent, Thanet)

  Goulding, Edward Alfred

  Bennett-Goldney, Francis

  Craik, Sir Henry

  Greene, Walter Raymond

  Bentinck, Lord H. Cavendish

  Crichton-Stuart, Lord Ninian

  Gretton, John

  Bigland, Alfred

  Cripps, Sir C. A.

  Guinness, Hon. Walter Edward

  Bird, Alfred

  Croft, Henry Page

  Haddock, George Bahr

  Boscawen, Sackville T. Griffith.

  Dalrymple, Viscount

  Hall, Fred (Dulwich)

  Boyle, W. L. (Norfolk, Mid)

  Dalziel, D. (Brixton)

  Hambro, Angus Valdemar

  Brassey, H. Leonard Campbell

  Dickson, Rt. Hon. C. Scott

  Hamersley, A. St. George

  Bridgeman, William Clive

  Dixon, C. H.

  Hamilton, Lord C. J. (Kensington, S.)

  Bull, Sir William James

  Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers.

  Hardy, Laurence (Kent, Ashford)

  Burdett-Coutts, W.

  Duke, Henry Edward

  Harris, Henry Percy

  Burn, Colonel C. R.

  Eyres-Monsell, Bolton TM.

  Helmsley, Viscount

  Butcher, John George

  Faber, Capt. W. V. (Hants, W.)

  Henderson, Major H. (Abingdon)

  Carlile, Edward Hildred

  Falle, B. G.

  Hickman, Colonel T. E.

  1640

  1641

  Hill, Sir Clement L.

  Mason, James F. (Winstor)

  Staveley-Hill, Henry (Staffordshire)

  Hillier, Dr. A. P.

  Middlemore, John Throgmorton

  Steel-Maitland, A. D.

  Hills, J. W.

  Mildmay, Francis Bingham

  Stewart, Gershom

  Hill-Wood, S. (High Peak)

  Mills, Hon. Charles Thomas

  Strauss, Arthur (Paddington, N.)

  Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield)

  Mount, William Arthur

  Swift, Rigby

  Homer, A. L.

  Neville, Reginald J. N.

  Sykes, Alan John

  Houston, Robert Paterson

  Newdegate, F. A.

  Talbot, Lord E.

  Hume-Williams, W. E.

  Newton, Harry Kottingham

  Terrell, G. (Wilts, N. W.)

  Hunt, Rowland

  Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield)

  Terrell, Henry (Gloucester)

  Ingleby, Holcombe

  Nield, Herbert

  Thomson, W. Mitchell- (Down, North)

  Jardine, Ernest (Somerset, East)

  O'Neill, Hon. A. E. B. (Antrim, Mid)

  Thynne, Lord A.

  Joynson-Hicks, William

  Orde-Powlett, Hon. W. G. A.

  Tobin, Alfred Aspinall

  Kebty-Fletcher, J. R.

  Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William

  Touche, George Alexander

  Kerry, Earl of

  Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington)

  Tryon, Captain George Clement

  Kimber, Sir Henry

  Peel, Capt. R. F. (Woodbridge)

  Walker, Col. William Hall

  Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement

  Peel, Hon. W. R. W. (Taunton)

  Ward, Arnold S. (Herts, Watford)

  Kirkwood, J. H. M.

  Pole-Carew, Sir R.

  Warde, Colonel C. E. (Kent, Mid)

  Lane-Fox, G. R.

  Pollock, Ernest Murray

  Wheler, Granville C. H.

  Larmor, Sir J.

  Pryce-Jones, Colonel E.

  White, Maj. G. D. (Lanc, Southpert)

  Law, Andrew Bonar (Bootle, Lancs.)

  Ratcliff, Major R. F.

  Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset, W.)

  Lawson, Hon. H. (T. H'mts., Mile End)

  Remnant, James Farquharson

  Willoughby, Major Hon. Claud

  Locker-Lampson, G. (Salisbury)

  Rice, Hon. Walter Fitz-Uryan

  Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E. R.)

  Locker-Lampson, O. (Ramsey)

  Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall)

  Wolmer, Viscount

  Lockwood, Rt. Hon. Lt.-Col. A. R.

  Rolleston, Sir John

  Wood, Hon. E. F. L. (Yorks, Ripon)

  Long, Rt. Hon. Walter

  Ronaldshay, Earl of

  Wood, John (Stalybridge)

  Lonsdale, John Brownlee

  Rothschild, Lionel de

  Worthington-Evans, L. (Colchester)

  Lowther, Claude (Cumberland, Eskdale)

  Samuel, Sir Harry (Norwood)

  Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-

  Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. A. (Hanover Sq.)

  Sanders, Robert Arthur

  Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

  Lyttelton, Hon. J. C. (Droitwich)

  Sanderson, Lancelot

  Yate, Col. C. E.

  MacCaw, Wm. J. MacGeagh

  Scott, Leslie (Liverpool, Exchange)

  Yerburgh, Robert

  Mackinder, Halford J.

  Smith, F. E. (Liverpool, Walton)

  Younger, George

  M'Mordie, Robert

  Spear, John Ward

  Magnus, Sir Philip

  Stanley, Hon. G. F. (Preston)

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Viscount

  Malcolm, Ian

  Starkey, John R.

  Valentia and Mr. H. W. Forster.

  The CHAIRMAN: In virtue of that decision, I call upon the hon. and learned Member for South Bucks to move his Amendment.
  Captain CRAIG: On a point of Order. May I ask whether it would not be possible to indicate roughly to hon. Members which Amendments are in order. I should like to point out that this Bill, with all its complications, requires considerable study. On each Amendment one has to refer to documents and books and to refresh one's memory with the speeches of hon. and right hon. Gentlemen, and the consequence may be that, after studying these things for a long time, he may find his Amendment ruled out or order. This causes hon. Members a considerable amount of unnecessary work, when their attention might be usefully devoted to something else.
  The CHAIRMAN: I cannot always say at once what Amendments I shall take, but where it is possible to do so I have no objection to stating them in advance. In this particular case the very next Amendment which introduces the question of the Joint Conference (that of the hon. and learned Member for South Bucks) is in order. After that the Amendment to omit the figure three and to substitute some other figure is also a substantial Amendment.
  Lord HUGH CECIL: I am anxious that the Amendment standing in the name of
  1642
  the hon. Member for Dudley (Colonel Griffith-Boscawen), which raises the question of voting by ballot, should not escape your notice. Since this question was raised on the last occasion we have had a striking illustration of the intimidation applied to Members of the majority and I am anxious to know if that Amendment will be discussed.
  The CHAIRMAN: I have very carefully considered that matter. I do not propose in regard to the selection of Amendments to state reasons. I think it would be inadvisable to do so. I am quite willing to be asked about any individual Amendment, and as to the one mentioned by the Noble Lord I may say T. have very carefully considered it, and I have come to the conclusion not to call it.
  Viscount HELMSLEY: I understood you to say that certain Amendments you selected were in order. I suppose you did not mean by that to convey that the Amendments not selected are out of order. This point is important, as it may constitute a precedent.
  The CHAIRMAN: I used the wrong word. I did not mean that the Amendments that I did not select were out of order.
  Mr. PEEL: You said you would not state reasons, but is it not possible for hon. Members to state shortly their reasons to you. May I respectfully suggest that hon.

  1643
  Members in charge of Amendments might possibly have some argument or reason which might not occur to you. The Chairman cannot be omniscient. I ask the question with the greatest possible respect.
  The CHAIRMAN: I cannot allow the question to be debated. I have a right to ask any hon. Member as to the meaning of his Amendment, and he can then state his case in order that I may decide. I may tell the hon. Member for North Paddington (Mr. Arthur Strauss) that the subject of the Referendum is an important question which must be considered, but when I came to look at his Amendment I did not think it was in proper form, and I therefore propose to take the Amendment on that subject of the hon. and learned Member for Kingston (Mr. Cave) as, perhaps, the more satisfactory one for raising the issue.
  6.0 P.M.
  Mr. JAMES HOPE: May I ask you, Sir, whether you have in your mind my Amendment on the paper at page 21 to substitute "years" for "sessions," as one which we may have discussed; also may I ask whether your attention has been called to an Amendment which has been raised in regard to the question of present representation?
  The CHAIRMAN: My attention was called to that, but the negative of the time limit which the Committee adopted has put that out of the question, and the subject itself, of course, is outside the scope of the Bill. With regard to the other Amendment on page 21 about which the hon. Member asked me, I do think that Amendment is a substantial one, but what I want the hon. Member to consider is whether it would not be well for him to raise the question at a later stage. I am inclined to think that the question would be much better raised by Amendments to the proviso, but I shall allow the hon. Member to move that Amendment if he desires to do so.
  Sir ALFRED CRIPPS: I beg to move, in Sub-section (1), after the word "Commons" ["Money Bill is passed by the House of Commons "] to insert the words, "and having been sent up to the House of Lords is rejected by that House or passed with Amendments to which the House of Commons do not assent such Bill shall stand referred to a joint session of the two
  1644
  Houses, and if passed at such joint session, whether with or without Amendment, shall be remitted to the House of Commons, and if the Bill in the form as remitted."
  The point which I desire to raise is an entirely new one, and the proposal that I make is that in the case of a difference between the two Houses the matter should be settled by the principle of Joint Session. I want to explain to the Committee why it is that I take it that if we are to have any constructive work as regards this Bill at all, the proposal of the Joint Session is the right way of dealing with difficulties which arise between the two Houses except in cases of Referendum. I want to put the question of Referendum entirely on one side so that I may deal with this question of Joint Session. The Prime Minister pointed out that this method would not be applicable under our present system, and he has made the same argument more than once. He has said that although he was quite in favour of the general principle of Joint Session, yet it would be inapplicable to the present conditions existing between the present House of Lords and the present House of Commons. I will deal with the argument more in detail by and by, but I want to say this at the outset: surely it is a false argument when you are seeking to bring about the reconstitution of our country to deal with what I may call matters of prejudice against the House of Lords in that it is the existing Second Chamber. Are we to disregard what I think is the main and crucial fact of having a new Constitution that we have a Second Chamber constituted somewhat in the way indicated by the Preamble of the Bill. It is no argument at all to say that a particular Amendment ought to be negatived because there is a difficulty in its application under existing conditions, although, as soon as there is a properly constituted new Second Chamber no such difficulty will arise. I want to point out to the Committee that the real necessity for the constitutional change with which we are now dealing and the real cause which has led to the introduction of the Bill of the Government is that under existing conditions we have no satisfactory method of solving difficulties which arise between the two Chambers.
  Our present system is based upon the necessity of the concurrence of both Houses before you can have anything in the nature of legislative enactment, and under these circumstances it is extremely

  1645
  important that you should have some system of solving the difficulties between the two Houses, and not try to cut the Gordian knot in the crude way proposed by the Government, namely, that the only solution of this difficulty is to keep the entire power in the House of Commons and destroy the Veto of the Lords altogether. Let me give an illustration of what I mean by a Joint Session. I do not want to refer in detail to what passed in connection with the Education Bill of 1906. I only refer to it as an illustration of one of the difficulties which might have been met by Joint Session principle. What really happened in that case? It has been very often misrepresented. The Bill passed this House and it was given a Second Beading in the House of Lords. Certain Amendments were, however, introduced in Committee, and when those Amendments came back to this House they were rejected en bloc. After that there were certain negotiations and they did not come to a satisfactory conclusion in the sense of passing the Bill, because there was a difference of opinion on a very small point. What I say about the Education Bill applies to all differences between the two Houses. So long as you have two co-ordinate authorities, a fact which is the basis of our Constitution and in the event of a difference between them, you have no satisfactory method of settling it, it is quite clear that you will have friction and difficulty arising from time to time. But in considering what I say ought to be not a revolutionary change but a constitutional reform, I ask the Prime Minister to bear this in mind, that when a difficulty has arisen between two Houses of co-ordinate jurisdiction, the true direction of constitutional reform is to constitute some body to which these difficulties can be referred in order that they may be satisfactorily determined, not in the sense of victory to one body or the other, but in a way which ought to be satisfactory to the whole country.
  That is the meaning and object of the Joint Session principle. The Prime Minister has pointed out more than once that although, to use his own words, he thinks the scheme of the Joint Session has a great many recommendations, and he certainly would not brush aside the procedure, he considers it would not apply to the present difficulty. Let me answer that objection, because if it is applicable, it is a way of settling these difficulties which, from the constitutional point of view, he would have been prepared to support. What is the difficulty? Of course, it is
  1646
  quite clear that if you had the Joint Session principle in operation at the present time with the House of Lords and the House of Commons as at present constituted meeting together in Joint Session, there would be a difficulty in the application of the principle in that form under existing conditions. No one denies that, but the Answer to it is this, that if the Prime Minister really believes that the Joint Session is a proper way of solving these constitutional difficulties, he would have no difficulty whatever in devising and forming a Joint Session which would be perfectly equal and fair to both parties pending the constitutional reform, which cannot be carried out until the proposals indicated in the Preamble of this Bill are carried through and we have a newly constituted Second Chamber. Supposing we had a Joint Session and selected a hundred Members from each House. Supposing the Members of the House of Commons were a microcosm of all the parties in this House, and fairly represented them, giving a majority to the Government. That being a body which in its essence and substance would represent all the various grades of opinion in this House would be able to present its views.
  Then let us take the House of Lords. I admit that while the House of Lords is constituted as it is at present you will have to have some temporary system as regards a Joint Session, but then, as I understand we have under this Bill a temporary system, and one of the worst forms of argument is that during a constitutional interregnum the power should all be exercised by one Chamber. If that were so during such a period of interregnum it would be nothing more than a revolutionary period, but during such a time there would, I think, be no difficulty whatever in arranging the terms of a joint meeting of selected bodies from both Houses in order that the principle of general session might be introduced and in order, if differences arise between the two Houses, you should not cut the difficulty by giving the authority to one or the other, but you should solve it by an impartial body in order that the country might benefit from fair legislation adopted after fair consideration by a body of that character. The Prime Minister has spoken more than once of what he calls the principle of inequality which exists, and when he has referred to that, he has always alluded to the House of Lords as it exists at the present time. I want to

  1647
  answer his argument, if I can, before it is brought forward again. I want to put this to him: Assume that the House of Lords as at present constituted, has a large permanent, Tory or Conservative majority. There will be no difficulty if you wanted to solve a question of this kind on a true constitutional basis, of settling that basis by agreement between the two parties by which a Joint Session might meet which would not give any undue predominance to one party or the other, but which might be so selected that all parties might be fairly represented. What is the difficulty if you really desire to do it? Of course, if you desire during the period of interregnum to make this House absolute it is easy to be critical as regards any proposal brought forward, but I would ask the Prime Minister to approach it from another point of view. If, as he said himself, the principle of Joint Session is a principle which he favours as a method of solution of the constitutional difficulty between the two Houses, would there be any real difficulty by consent at the present time conceding the principle of that Joint Session in seeing that it might be made fairly representative of all classes of opinion and did not indicate inequality towards one side of the House or the other.
  It is surely a very poor argument that it is beyond the legislative skill of Members of this House to devise a fair system of Joint Session; assuming that it is a fair and adequate system to have recourse to in matters of this kind. Let me address myself to the proposal which the Prime Minister has made. Can anything be more crude, can anything be more unsatisfactory than the way that he proposes for dealing with a difference of opinion between the two Houses. It is nothing more nor less than this; a total, an absolute disregard of the opinion of one of the two bodies altogether. It is called the destruction of the Veto, but it is the destruction of the self-respecting character of the House of Lords altogether, because I am quite certain that no self-respecting Second Chamber would undertake the laborious duties which it undertakes at the present time, if its voice is to have no authority and no power at all. I want to bring this point also to the attention of the Prime Minister. Does he agree that our present constitutional crisis has been brought about by the inability to arrange difficulties and differences between
  1648
  the two Houses of Parliament? Does he agree with this, that if we had a system under which the differences between the two Houses could be fairly and equally compromised and settled there would be no case at all for the Veto Bill which he is now bringing forward?
  If that is the crux of the decision what answer has he to the Joint Session principle except what he stated more than once that during the period of the interregnum, that is before the Second Chamber has been reconstituted in accordance with the Preamble of the Bill, you have to have some special method of adjusting your Joint Session in order that it should be absolutely fair to both parties. At any rate, from my point of view of constitutional reform, no principle of Joint Session ought to be entertained unless it would hold the scales as fairly as anybody possibly could between the different parties which constitute either the majority or the minority in this House of Commons. I hope the suggestion will not be made again that owing to the constitution of the present House of Lords a principle which is in itself good ought to be rejected, instead of being formulated into what I should like to see, a system of constitutional reform as against a system merely of revolutionary propaganda. There is one other argument which I want to address to the Prime Minister. Owing to the course through which this Bill has gone in Committee, the House of Commons, with practically no veto, would have power to deal with every possible form of legislation. That being so, does it not become more important that you should have a proper principle for solving the difficulties as between the two Houses and that you should have some system which the people of this country are likely to trust and are likely to look upon as a final solution rather than this temporary system during the period of interregnum where we are always met by the particular difficulties of the existing Second Chamber when we bring forward proposals of constitutional reform? I do not think it is necessary to go into analogous cases in other countries, but I do not believe there is any case where the principle of Joint Session has been tried where it has not been found to be both expedient and useful. In fact, in all cases where it has been tried it has been found to answer the purpose for which it has been put in force. It has been found to be an adequate and useful solution as regards' difficulties between the two Chambers

  1649
  If you are to have a bi-cameral system, a system in which absolute power is not to be given to one of the two Chambers, how else should you solve the difficulty except by Joint Session of the two Chambers? I am one of those who entirely and absolutely disapprove of any question of an outside authority as regards anything that is done in this House or in the House of Lords. The two Chambers must solve these things for. themselves, and I think this matter can be solved by the principle of the Joint Session. The only difficulty suggested is during the period of the interregnum, and I say that difficulty could easily be overcome if there is the will on the part of the Prime Minister to bring about a fair solution, and on that ground I move the Amendment, which is really the first Amendment of constructive mechanism, which I am afraid the Prime Minister is not likely to accept because he is opposed to all Amendments which we bring forward, but which I appeal to him to consider and which I wish he could accept, because he has himself given his imprimatur in favour of the principle and the suggestion has only been that during the period of time there may be certain difficulties in its application.
  The PRIME MINISTER: The speech of my hon. and learned Friend seemed to have very little practical relevance to the Amendment. I have myself stated on more than one occasion that I see no objection either on the ground of policy or of justice to the principle of Joint Sessions as a means of solving difficulties between two Chambers in a democratic country. I adhere to everything I have said on the subject, in fact I may quote what I said a year ago in this House when I moved the Resolution on 29th March, on which this Bill is founded. I said:—
  "Let me now come to another and the only other solution which, as far as I know has been suggested, and that is a Joint Session between the two branches of the Legislature."
  I mentioned the fact that that is the remedy which has been adopted by two of our great self-governing Dominions, Australia and South Africa. I do not know, although it is adopted in those two Constitutions, that it has ever yet been re sorted to. [HON. MEMBERS: Oh, yes."] Perhaps on very trivial occasions. [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] It has certainly not been resorted to in South Africa, though it may have been on one or two occasions in Australia. In Australia, of course, the favourite method is not Joint Sessions.
  Sir A. CRIPPS: The Referendum on particular matters.
  The PRIME MINISTER: On important matters the Referendum has been resorted to. In the United States, as far as I know, whether in the case of Congress itself or of the separate States of the Union, this procedure by way of Joint Sessions is practically unknown. I do not think it exists. In France it exists in theory, but wholly in theory, and, as far as I know, it has never been resorted to in practice. Therefore, though it has been put in practice in Australia on more than one occasion, as a matter of fact it is entirely in the experimental stage. That is no reason to deprecate it, but it is a reason for saying that, so far, we have no-relevant experience which will enable us to judge how far it is or is not adapted to the very special conditions under which we live in this country. To go on with what I said after citing these examples I proceeded to say:—
  "This scheme of a Joint Session has, I think, a great many recommendations, and I desire to say most distinctly here and now that if you have two legislative Chambers composed upon a democratic basis and related to one another somewhat after the fashion I indicated earlier in my speech, with a proper numerical relation one with the other, I think there is a great deal to be said for settling differences that might arise between them by means of a Joint Session. I do not in the least prejudge it, and when it arises I think the hands of Parliament ought to be perfectly free with regard to it."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 29th March. 1919, col. 1175.]
  I adhere to every word of that statement, and I think it is quite as true now as I thought it true a year ago. What is the proposal of my hon. and learned Friend? We are dealing with an existing state of things, with a House of Commons constituted as this House is constituted, with a Second Chamber composed as the House of Lords is composed, and the proposition is—and that is why I said a moment ago I did not think the abstract arguments of the hon. and learned Gentleman's speech had much relevance to the practical proposition he was submitting—that, things being as they are, every Bill which passes the House of Commons and is then sent to the House of Lords, and is rejected by that House or passed with Amendments to which the House of Commons will not assent, should stand referred to a Joint Session of the two Houses. I presume that means what it says, that these two Houses shall sit together as one body, and that the decision of that composite body shall determine the result.
  Sir A. CRIPPS: I thought I explained quite carefully that I did not mean that at all. I said that during the interregnum you must have a selection of the two Houses fairly made.
  The PRIME MINISTER: I see nothing in the Amendment about selection. Are we to understand that this Amendment is to leave it open as to whether the Joint Session is to be a Session of the two Houses sitting together in full number or whether it is to be a Session of some selected representation of the two Houses, selected upon some principle which is not even indicated or adumbrated by the Amendment. How can the Committee be asked as practical men to discuss a proposal of that kind? I take the proposal as I find it in the Amendment and it has only to be stated for its patent absurdity to be seen. Consider what it means. I take one concrete case. Although under this Clause Money Bills would not be subject to it, yet nevertheless for the sake of illustration I take the Finance Bill of 1909, as for the purpose of my argument it is quite immaterial that it was a Finance Bill. That Bill was passed in this House on Third Reading, Ayes, 370; Noes, 140—majority 230. In the House of Lords, on the Second Reading, Contents, seventy-five; Non-contents, 350—majority against, 275. On a Joint Session of the two bodies it is perfectly obvious that the Bill must have been rejected because of the preponderance of one party in the Second Chamber. No one will suggest for a moment—I am sure the hon. and learned Gentleman himself is the last to suggest, it—
  Sir A. CRIPPS: I did not suggest it.
  The PRIME MINISTER: Then why put down such an amazing Amendment, of which that is the only intelligible meaning. In the form in which it is presented it simply deals with the two Houses as now composed and constituted, and the House of Lords would always have the last word in every matter of legislation. That, of course, is not only entirely contrary to the principle of the Bill, but to the intention of every intelligent constitutional reformer. That would be sufficient, I think, to dispose of the Amendment. But I have given a very great deal of care and thought and attention to the matter, and I can assure the hon. and learned Gentleman that the problem, which he thinks so easy, of devising some machine of Joint Session as between the
  1652
  two House of the Legislature is a problem of extreme, and, I believe, under existing conditions, insuperable difficulty. I quite reserve my freedom of judgment, as I said a year ago, in regard to this matter if and when we have a Second Chamber reduced in number and constituted on a democratic basis, to find some machine of that kind which will deal with the practical situation in the years, at any rate, which lie immediately before us. I cannot devise, nor have I ever seen anyone who is able to devise, a system of Joint Session which would not really place the representative body at the mercy of the Second Chamber, which would not in other words, in some cases, delay and, in some cases, altogether frustrate the objects with which the representative body had been returned to this House. That being so, the Government, under no circumstances, can accept this Amendment. It is obviously unworkable, and it is not attempted to be justified by those who put it forward, and the Government cannot assent, in anticipation of some change as yet undefined in the future composition of the Upper Chamber, to devise some other mode of settling constitutional difficulties, and cannot postpone or set aside the perfectly logical, just, and workable proposal of this Bill, which gives to the House of Lords the fullest opportunity of delay, discussion, deliberation, and revision, and which, in our opinion, affords an ample safeguard against hasty and precipitate legislation of a House of Commons which has ceased to be in touch with the constituencies. The proposal of my hon. and learned Friend with respect to a Joint Session as a means of solving the present constitutional difficulty is one which the Government cannot accept.
  Mr. BALFOUR: I have listened to the speech of the Prime Minister with feelings of very profound regret and disappointment. He had a chance of showing in this great constitutional crisis that he was prepared to consider some sounder method, and not simply to attempt to introduce the crude form of destruction which has been attempted in this Bill. This Bill is the sort of effort which a child might make to deal with a complicated machine. It pulls wheels out of the machinery and puts nothing in their place. It destroys and does nothing to create. It contains no sign of permanency. There is no sign of statesmanship in it. The whole experience of every country in the world which has tried democratic government condemns it

  1653
  at the very beginning. Every great democratic country in the world—
  Sir HENRY DALZIEL: They have no House of Lords.
  Mr. BALFOUR: I will take up that interruption, though it is not quite pertinent to the general observations I was endeavouring to make as to the course of action which the Government have chosen to adopt. Does it not stand to reason, after the interruption of the hon. Gentleman and the speech of the Prime Minister, that in the whole treatment of the subject the Government have deliberately begun at the wrong end? The Prime Minister said that a joint sitting of the two Houses might be a possible thing if we had a good Second Chamber. The right hon. Gentleman says that democratic countries which are English-speaking, and other nationalities, have no hereditary Chambers. Well, then, why do you not begin at what you admit to be the proper end, and put the reform of the House of Lords at the beginning? You put in the reform where you know it has no effect. You begin with the Preamble, no doubt, but you take care that it shall be a preamble and not an operative Clause. My hon. and learned Friend truly says that had you begun with the reform of the Second Chamber you could then no doubt have made use of the full wisdom not only of our own experience tout of the experience of all other countries, and you would have avoided the extraordinary and almost simple-minded absurdity which seems to have governed the counsels of those who framed this strange method of dealing with an ancient and venerable Constitution. The Prime Minister's method of dealing with experience is very extraordinary. A few moments ago there was an Amendment moved by my hon. Friend behind me in which the question of the numerical magnitude of the majority was taken into account. The right hon. Gentleman said there was no precedent in our Constitution to deal with questions in that way. We come now to the Amendment moved by my learned Friend, and the Prime Minister brushes it aside, saying, inaccurately that the method proposed has not been used in Australia. [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] Well, he inaccurately minimised it. It is immaterial how inaccurate he was. He was inaaccurate. He was quite ready to admit that he had perhaps understated the relative importance of the case, I do not wish to press the matter, nor do I think it of any importance.
  1654
  Then the right hon. Gentleman said that in France the provision in the Constitution for a Joint Session existed in theory, but not in practice. It would be in practice in France at once if a case arose requiring its exercise. If you had in France one of those serious deadlocks which have figured so largely in this controversy, if you had a difference between the Senate and the Chamber of Deputies in France, or if you wanted to change the Constitution, which I think is a matter on which a Joint Session comes into working, of course there would be a Joint Session. It is not an instrument which has fallen into desuetude. It is an instrument which is rarely required, but if required would be used. The Prime Minister has told us that if you had the Second Chamber which he desires to see, it might be a proper thing to have a Joint Sitting. I say under these circumstances why have not the Government in the first place given us this reformed Chamber with which we could have Joint Sittings? Why have they not begun with that? If they could not do that, why do they resist every effort to get over the difficulty which they themselves have created as they are doing by refusing to accept Amendments. The Prime Minister says that my hon. and learned Friend's proposal is impossible because there is an overwhelming Unionist majority in the Second Chamber, and that the majority is so great that, however large might be the number of the supporters of the Government in this House, they would always have this overwhelming Unionist majority in the case of a joint sitting with the other House. My hon. and learned Friend in his speech stated that he distinctly foresaw that that was an objection to having a joint sitting of the House of Commons and the House of Lords as now constituted. He never suggested that that should be the case. He has put on the Paper an Amendment which would have to be supplemented by some later provision under which the House of Lords should not sit completely, but only by a delegation of that Assembly sitting with the House of Commons or a delegation of the House of Commons to deal with those difficult points in which the two Houses were in dispute. But there is nothing in my hon. and learned Friend's Amendment which makes it impossible to have that further constructive Amendment. The Amendment lays down the foundation of that structure. It was distinctly directed towards a temporary modification on those lines until the

  1655
  Preamble proposed by the Government will materialise from a debt of honour into a substantial payment.
  In these circumstances the House ought to feel that the way the Government are attempting to treat this suggestion is quite unworthy of them, of the party they lead, and of the magnitude of the problem which is before us. I describe this Bill as really a childish and simple-minded attempt to deal with an ancient Constitution. The Government themselves admit that it is only provisional, and the Preamble which is there staring us in the face makes it very difficult to say that it is anything but provisional. The real problem to which this Committee ought to set itself is this. Let us grant that it may be right to deal with the present Constitution in a constitutional fashion. The question is so large, I agree, that under the existing system of legislation it would be extremely difficult to cover the whole ground quite satisfactorily in the course of one Session. At any rate I am prepared to grant that for the sake of argument, but I think we ought to have begun at the other end, and all those things would have fallen into place. But you may say, and rightly say, that it is too late to begin with that. The Government have preferred this strange, irrational, illogical, and reckless method of procedure, and all we can do now is to make the best of a bad job. Let us try to make the best of a bad job.
  You are trying, as is admitted by all those who like and dislike the Bill, to set up a provisional system. In your provisional system you should do two things. You should make it lead up naturally and harmoniously to your completed system, and while it lasts in a provisional state, and before its completion, you should see that it carries out as far as possible the ends which a sane and sober constitutional legislature ought to endeavour to arrive at. What have you done and what do you insist upon doing if you will not accept an Amendment of this kind? You are practically saying, "The British Constitution in its old form will no longer work, and we think the new Constitution to be substituted for it is one which should be bi-cameral, and the Second Chamber should be an effective Second Chamber, which should be in touch with the general current of public opinion. That is what we aim at in the dim and distant future, but in the meanwhile let us destroy the bi-cameral
  1656
  character of our Constitution, and let us live for an indefinite period under a Single Chamber, although we think two Chambers are the only safe system under which you can legislate." That is your argument. We say that that is surely not the method in which rational and sober-minded legislators ought to proceed. You are pulling down the old house, and you are drawing the plans in rather vague outline of some palace of the future. Why are you in the meanwhile compelling us to live in this shapeless hut which does not keep out the weather, and which has none of the attributes which even the simplest building ought to possess.
  I say that meanwhile when we have got to live under these unhappy conditions, make your new building, although temporary, at least watertight. Try to find some system which will not be the unicameral system which you yourselves condemn. I believe that that object could be attained if you set honestly and sincerely to work on the lines suggested by my hon. and learned Friend, and if you try meanwhile not to have a Joint Sitting of the House of Lords as it now is and the House of Commons as it now is, but to evolve some temporary arrangement which would be reasonable and fair and which would last until you have contrived to pay your debt of honour, until you have really turned your plans for a renovated Constitution into something like a reality, until you have not merely planned but built that new palace in which you think that we and our children are to live happier and freer than our forefathers succeeded in living under the ancient institutions which now exist. That is really what statesmen would have done, and statesmen could still do, even on the foundation of this most absurd Bill if they would take my hon. and learned Friend's Amendment as a basis of construction and set to work to add to it. It does not require modification, but to add at later stages of the Bill some arrangement which would bridge over the interval between the Constitution as our forefathers knew it and the Constitution which you think you will be able to create in some dim and distant future which none of us can forsee.
  These are the reasons why I shall certainly support my hon. and learned Friend and which make me feel how very unsatisfactory are the professions of constitutional faith which the Prime Minister has made in the course of these discussions.

  1657
  The speech which he has made this evening fills me with a feeling of greater depression than any yet made as to the spirit in which right hon. and hon. Gentlemen opposite are approaching what is one of the most difficult, and ought to be one of the most honourable processes which we can indulge in, that of dealing with our institutions in a spirit of reverence and with some attempt to maintain their excellencies during the period of transition until your state of ideal perfection can really be reached. I hope even now that hon. Gentlemen opposite will accept this Amendment. I do not ask those who are Single Chamber men, because, of course, I am not arguing with them, but I am accepting the premises which are common to all the rest of the House who believe with the Foreign Secretary and with the Government, and with almost all political thinkers of almost all great and free countries that an effective Second Chamber is a necessary and integral part of any sound Constitution, and I beg them to think twice before they reject an Amendment which is the only one I can see which will give any foundation within the compass of this Bill for reconstructing our constitutional fabric on sober and on rational lines.
  Colonel GRIFFITH - BOSCAWEN: I think that hon. Members on this side of the House have reason to complain of the answer given by the Prime Minister to the Amendment of my hon. and learned Friend which is on constructive lines designed to meet the difficulty that exists. The only answer of the Prime Minister, and it is practically the only answer to every Amendment to this Bill, is that it is impracticable because things are as they are at the present time. Things are as they are at the present time simply because the Government have chosen to proceed by this particular Bill instead of having the courage to carry out the principles they laid down in the Preamble. The answer given by the Prime Minister is on purely technical grounds. He did not attempt to controvert the arguments of my hon. and learned Friend. He did not attempt to show what a Joint Conference was not probably the best solution of differences between the two Chambers in any country in the world. He simply said that, because the House of Lords is as numerous as it is now, and because my hon. and learned Friend has not put down any consequential Amendment providing machinery for a Joint Conference on smaller lines, he cannot for a moment ask the Committee even to consider this
  1658
  Amendment. Having regard to the great importance of this matter and having regard to the fact that unless you have a Joint Conference you have practically Single-Chamber Government and nothing-else, we might have expected from the Prime Minister that he would have argued the matter upon the merits instead of giving merely technical objections to the Amendment of my hon. and learned Friend. The only attempt he made to argue upon the merits was, he said that in the case of the Colonies and other countries in which the principle of Joint Conference has been established the working is in an experimental stage.
  The Prime Minister is not present, but I venture to ask the Chancellor of the Duchy (Mr. Pease), who often makes very enlightened remarks upon this Bill when we are told that a Joint Conference cannot be taken as a precedent, because it is in an experimental stage in our Colonies, was there ever a greater experiment than this particular Bill? We at all events have got some experience of the Colonies. We know it has been used effectively in the case of Australia. We know it has been put into force in South Africa. We know that in some foreign countries, such as France, joint conferences are held. We also know that they are held in the case of the United States of America. Mr. Bryce tells us that in the case of Financial Bills joint conferences are of constant occurrence. This is even going further than this particular Amendment, which is confined to Bills other than Financial Bills. Mr. Bryce tells us:—
  "Of the right to propose Amendments to Financial Bills received in their House, the Senate avails itself freely, and Bills are returned to the House of Representatives bearing effectively the imprint of the Senate. Then follow again amendment on the part of their House, and a conference, and the final passing of a com promised measure."
  Can the Prime Minister say really that that is an experimental state? That is what takes place in the American Constitution. It has been working now for a great many years with great smoothness and in a very satisfactory manner, and even in the cases of Financial Bills results in compromises which are entirely due to the smooth working of the principle of conference. Then for the Prime Minister to tell us that he cannot assent because in other countries it is only in an experimental stage, when he himself and the Government are proposing the biggest experiment in Single-Chamber Government which the world has ever seen is the poorest argument we could possibly have had from the Front Bench opposite.

  1659
  I would like to call the attention of the Government to another matter in which they prove themselves to be singularly inconsistent with themselves, because I suppose the origin of this Bill for limiting the powers of the House of Lords is to be found in the celebrated Campbell-Bannerman resolutions of 1907, and in these resolutions joint conference was a very important feature. As far as I remember, when a Bill is thrown out by the House of Lords after having passed this House, there was to be a conference. Then if the House of Lords rejected it a second time there was to be another conference. Then, if they rejected it a third time, there was to be a third conference, and it was only after the third conference that the measure was to become law. How is it now that the Government, having produced a Bill which apparently is based more or less on the Campbell-Bannerman resolutions, have entirely rejected the principle of conference? In introducing the Resolutions of the 24th June, 1907, Sir Henry Campbell-Bannerman said: "Now I come to the outline of the plan which the Government propose. It is proposed that if a Bill is sent up to the other House, and in the result the two Houses find agreement impossible, a conference shall be held between members appointed in equal numbers by the two Houses. That conference will be of small dimensions," and so on. Then be went on to point out that conferences between the two Houses in this country had been of frequent occurrence. They had been part of the practice of the country. So far from being an experiment abroad, they are not an experiment even in this country. He pointed out that Members of this House did not care about it, chiefly because when they went to the House of Lords they had to go bare headed and they had to remain standing. Therefore, in the year 1836 it was discontinued. I imagine that my hon. and learned Friend would be willing to introduce into this Amendment words to make clear that we need not go to the other House bare-headed and need not stand the whole time.
  Sir Henry Campbell-Bannerman proceeded as follows: "What the Government propose is that statutory provisions should be made for such meetings in the event of disagreement, and that the conference should occupy a definite place in the transactions between the two Houses." If the Government had as part of their plan in
  1660
  1907 that small conference or delegations from this House and delegations from the other House should be held, why are we to be told by the Prime Minister that it is perfectly impossible and impracticable in the present year? What has come over the Government to render what was possible and practicable then and what they definitely proposed themselves quite impossible now? If it was possible then to bring forward some plan whereby a certain selection should be made from the Upper Chamber for the purpose of this conference, why is it impossible now? The Government object to the Amendment that my hon. and learned Friend has not put in any machinery. As I understand, all he intended to do was to establish the principal of Joint Conferences which the Government themselves proposed four years ago, and it will be perfectly possible for the Government to introduce such machinery as will effect this purpose. For these reasons I sincerely hope that my hon. and learned Friend will press this matter to a Division, because I am convinced that on these lines will be found probably the best solution of a very difficult question, and because I think we have not had any fair treatment in the very cursory way in which the Government have pushed aside this Amendment on the present occasion.
  7.0 P.M.
  Mr. MALCOLM: I noticed the sounds arising from the Labour Benches when my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Balfour) invited the Government by accepting this Amendment to make the best of a bad job. One of the features I think of our Committee stage is the extraordinary complacency with which hon. Gentlemen on the benches opposite regard this measure as if it were a piece of superhuman machinery that required absolutely no Amendment, even if explanatory or constructive, from any part of the House, unless from the Front Bench opposite. My hon. and learned Friend is perfectly right in his proposal, and I can only repeat the words of the Secretary of State for War, spoken by him when sitting on that Bench only two months ago, with a candour quite uncommon in that quarter, that this Bill was not an ideal instrument with which to work. My hon. and learned Friend has made a genuine contribution towards peace in the Amendment he has put before the Committee. This Bill seems to be not one which is to make for the prosperity of the country but one which is

  1661
  more likely to be an engine of war, and in the main an engine of war against Church and State, so long as it happens to be in operation. My hon. and learned Friend makes a contribution towards constitutional peace, and it is treated in the way to which we are all becoming accustomed at the hands of the Prime Minister, who will have nothing to do with any Amendment which comes from us. I must say I am extremely disappointed by the attitude taken by the right hon. Gentleman, after all he has told us about his abstract delight in Joint Sessions. We have heard speeches from him which I need not repeat. The Home Secretary, also, has said that he sees no reason why differences which arise between the two Houses should not be settled by the process of Joint Sessions.
  Lord Crewe paid a perfectly gratuitous tribute to the advantage of Joint Sessions. But when it comes to putting Government professions to the test the Prime Minister assumes a non possumus attitude against taking from us anything, however good it may be, until he has a democratic Second Chamber which can go into Joint Session with this House. The plain meaning of the speech which the Prime Minister made the other evening is that Home Rule and Disestablishment and other questions are to be passed in the interval between the Single Chamber and the reform of the Second Chamber, which we may have or may not have in the future. We have great doubt as to the bona fides of the Government in respect of carrying this Preamble into effect in the course of the present Parliament. We have the words of the Patron age Secretary, which, I am sure, if we had happened to have heard them at the time, would still be ringing in our ears, when he said, on the occasion of his being heckled at the last general election, "I do not want it reconstructed, I want it abolished." That is the point of view of the Patronage Secretary in regard to the House of Lords. And he speaks as the mouthpiece, I have no doubt, of those Gentlemen opposite who are supporting the Parliament Bill. I can understand now why it is that the Prime Minister is so very doubtful about bringing his preamble forward in the concrete form of a Second Chamber Bill. The Labour party help to keep him in office, and they are Single Chamber men. We have therefore above the Gangway opposite those Members for whom the Patronage Secretary speaks, and we have below the Gangway
  1662
  those Members who represent the Labour party, and who are in favour of Single-Chamber Government. Therefore, we say that it is really impossible for us to believe in the professions of the Prime Minister that he is in favour of Joint Sessions hereafter when a Second Chamber-is brought into existence, because we do-not believe, if he seriously tries to put the preamble into the concrete form of a Second Chamber measure, that he would get support either above or below the Gangway of his own party.
  In this Bill, with all its imperfections it is one of the most curious and suspicious of lacunae that there is absolutely no-machinery in the measure for bridging: any difficulties between the two Houses. The reason is that hon. Gentlemen opposite and hon. Members from Ireland unfortunately prefer we should differ rather than any golden bridge should be-constructed between the two Houses. It is a matter of the greatest disappointment and despair to some of us that the Government should take that line. The Patronage Secretary used the expression, "Let us; smash the pendulum." So long as that is the spirit in which the Government proceed with this Bill, so long I hope will opposition and criticism be given to it by my hon. Friends on this side of the House. I hope they will not be deterred from going: on with their Amendments, which are constructive Amendments of real worth, that may do something, in the words of the Leader of the Opposition, to make the best of a very bad job.
  Dr. CHAPPLE: The hon Member opposite failed to draw a distinction between Joint Sessions and joint conferences, and reference has been made to the Joint Session in the Australian Commonwealth. There are two conditions which must be fulfilled if Joint Sessions are to serve the functions expected of them. First of all, the two Houses must derive their power and authority from the same constituents as in the Australian Commonwealth. If the two Houses derive their power and authority from the same source, from the same constituents, there is no-reason whatever why the two Houses should not sit in Joint Session, allowing the majority of that Joint Session to decide the issue. The first condition, in order to make a Joint Session acceptable at all, is that it must be upon a democratic basis, and that the two Houses sitting in Joint Session should derive their power and

  1663
  authority from the same political source. The next condition is that their decision should be final. That is, they should not merely confer as to what is best to be done, and then report, but they should have power of finally deciding and disposing of the issue. In the Australian Commonwealth the Joint Session has this power. When a Bill has been rejected by the Upper House on three successive occasions, a Joint Session is called of that House which is elected by the people, and of the Lower House which is also elected by the people, and the majority of Members, not the majority of Members present, but the majority of those elected to both Houses, decide the issue. Then, if the Bill is passed, it is submitted to the Governor-General for his signature.
  In the Australian Commonwealth the Upper House derives its power and authority from a popular constituency. They have adult suffrage, and the electors of the State elect the Upper House just as the electors in the individual constituencies elect the Members of the Lower House. But these conditions do not exist under our Constitution, so that it is impossible to argue that because Joint Sessions in Australia are successful therefore they will be successful here. The Liberal party could not for a moment agree to Joint Sessions with a House which derives its authority from the hereditary principle. Both Houses would have to be on the same basis. Under that condition, the difficulty would be perfectly easy of solution. The Leader of the Opposition said this Bill was provisional. Undoubtedly it is. The Preamble presupposes that reform is to follow. But the Bill which we are now discussing is a matter of urgency. There is an arrear of measures which require to be dealt with, and reform of the other House is a difficult and protracted business. This Parliament Bill is so simple a matter that it can be got through in a comparatively short time, and the Prime Minister has expressed the opinion that it can go to the Upper House and probably become law before the Coronation. But reform of the other House is a very difficult and protracted matter, and there is no unanimity on this side of the House with regard to it, neither is there unanimity on the other side of the House.
  The CHAIRMAN: The observations of the hon. Member do not appear to be relevant to the Amendment.
  Dr. CHAPPLE: I am dealing with the proposition that this Bill is only provisional, and that reform of the other House should come first. I was trying to point out the urgency of this Parliament Bill.
  The CHAIRMAN: That is transferring the Debate wholly to the question of the reform of the House of Lords. The right hon. Gentleman, when he referred to that question did so in connection with the general trend of his argument. The hon. Member is not doing that; he is replying solely on the point of the reform of the other House.
  Dr. CHAPPLE: I will confine myself to replying to the statement made by the Leader of the Opposition that reform is so simple a matter that it could be taken first and gone on with now. He gave us the illustration of a simple hut, and of the finished structure that we might occupy. I would like to say that the question of reform is so complicated and protracted that it is impossible for us to deal with it now. In view of the urgency of this Bill we have need of some covering to shelter us in the meantime. Reform of the Upper House has always been a very difficult matter.
  The CHAIRMAN: How does the hon. Member connect his observations with the Amendment which we are considering? I see no connection between them.
  Dr. CHAPPLE: I will revert to the question of Joint Sessions as a remedy, and I reiterate my previous remark that a Joint Session cannot possibly be a remedy for the deadlock which exists to-day, unless the Upper House derives its power and authority from the same source as that from which we derive our authority. In present conditions Joint Sessions would simply be an attempt to arrive at an agreement, as did the conference we have already had, and, if an agreement is not arrived at, the matter simply falls to the ground. Any Joint Session which is to be effective must have power to come to a decision which shall be final.
  Mr. ALFRED LYTTELTON: The hon. Member who has just spoken, in the latter part of his speech, reiterated a statement which he had made in the first part. He was neither strictly accurate in the original statement nor in the reiterated one. There are two distinct instances—classic instances now of Joint Sessions in the Dominions of the Crown: one is in South Africa and the other in Australia. The

  1665
  Prime Minister was quite in error in saying that the Joint Session had not been used, and frequently used, in Australia. It has. The only difference between it in Australia and in South Africa is that in Australia the decision of a Joint Session is not, as the hon. Member supposed, final, but is subject to the right of dissolution, whereas in South Africa, gathering experience from Australia, His Majesty's Government made the decision of the Joint Session final. That is the distinction between the two systems; I think, on the whole, there is much to be said for both: the one system, which has nothing to say for itself, is that which is being adopted by His Majesty's Government—I mean the providing for no Joint Session. It is sup posed, or the Government profess not to enact specially harsh measures—
  Dr. CHAPPLE: When a Joint Session is held in Australia and a decision is come to by a majority of all the Members representing both Houses, what then is the next step—dissolution?
  Mr. A. LYTTELTON: It is open to the Governor, on the advice of his Ministers, to dissolve in order that reconsideration of the matter may take place, even after the decision of the Joint Session. The system of South Africa is that the decision of the Joint Session shall be final, and in Australia that the decision of the Joint Session shall be subject to Dissolution, which Shall be the right of the Governor to give on the advice of Ministers, except within six months of the time when that Parliament would have come to an end by effluxion of time. The great merit of a Joint Session is that it enables a Conference to take place between Committees of the parties. If that Conference fails, then you have a Joint Session, and it is a very great argument for a Joint Session, as against a Referendum, that it enables both Houses to preserve their dignity, their self-respect, and reputation with the country even if in the Joint Session their original view has been altered or reversed. Where a position is taken up by the Upper House or the Lower, they may in Joint Session debate it, and carefully consider it with a view to compromise, and with a view also to what the ultimate effect would be in the country. All that leads not to exasperating differences of opinion, but tends to such a result in legislation, and to such compromises in legislation, as will make it fairly acceptable to both sides. In addition, neither the Upper House nor the Lower, if they accept some of the
  1666
  views put forward, lose their dignity or reputation in the country. That is a very different thing from the Referendum.
  Just take the distinction between a Referendum and a Joint Session, and I should say a Joint Session was infinitely preferable in all except very, very few cases. In a Referendum, supposing one position has been taken up by the Lower House, and supposing that that matter, after being rejected by the Upper House, goes to the country on a Referendum, the decision of the country must be either to reverse the position of the Upper House or of the Lower House. If it is the decision of the Upper House, then that House loses all reputation for the time being, while if it is the decision of the Lower House it cannot practically continue under the Ministry which advised the decision which the public has reversed. Therefore I think it is only in case you have absolutely no other opportunity to avoid a deadlock that you should have a Referendum, but in my opinion by a Joint Session important matters in which deadlocks occur at the present time would be solved without great friction and with less party bias than at present if delegations, such as are suggested by my hon. and learned Friend, met together and discussed, perhaps under more tranquil circumstances, the question at issue than they do now. I think one of the great advantages of a Joint Session is that the difficulties or controversies which come really to an issue are more likely—I do not say it is a certainty—to be discussed upon less strictly party lines than in the discussions which take place in this House. For the first time the Peers and Members of the Upper House would meet the Members of the Lower House in actual Session. They would see that the decisions that have been arrived at could be maintained by legitimate arguments, and they would be maintained by legitimate and courteous arguments. When matters came really to an issue, it would be possible that the result of the debates should not be decided on strictly party grounds, as if it were discussed in this House alone.
  For my part, I had the greatest possible hope that the ultimate solution of this matter would be found in a system of Joint Session. I should be perfectly prepared myself, as regards almost all class of legislation, to allow the decision of a Joint Session of this House and of a Second Chamber consisting of about half the numbers, I should be perfectly prepared to allow the great majority of Bills to be

  1667
  settled by the majority of a Joint Session of those two Houses sitting together. Many of the greatest measures of social reform have been, I think, agreed upon by both Houses in substance, and a Joint Session upon such matters as there are differences of opinion about would be nothing but profit to those measures of social reform. That is just the function which a Second Chamber could discharge very well, and just such a function as I am sure they would discharge. As regards those measures, you would have a more salutary and more expeditious process and passage than you have at present. There are, of course, and I shall reserve myself as to those, some cases of such pre-eminent importance and magnitude that you could only finally decide by referendum to the people, or by dissolution as you have in Australia. I think it is absolutely deplorable that the Government at this stage, and considering the history of this country should impose an absolute obstacle to an Amendment of this kind, an Amendment which is not in the least degree hostile to the principle of the Bill, and an Amendment which I believe would commend itself to every person of moderate liberal opinion in the country.
  Mr. HARRY LAWSON: I am sure on these benches we were very glad to hear the genuine intervention in this Debate from the somewhat silent shades of the Back Benches opposite. I did not rise, however, to point out that, but I should like to point out that in this Amendment we are approaching the sacrosanct ground of the Constitutional Conference of last year. I tried to draw the Prime Minister on the point, but failed. I tried to get him to tell the House what common ground had been occupied, and what agreed results had been arrived at by that Conference. I still think, though it may have been impossible, and I am not reproaching him because he fairly says that the responsibility was shared between the two sides, I still think it is the greatest loss to this country, and a very serious thing in these Debates, that we do not know what were the common results arrived at by aid of the eight picked men of all parties, who sat for nearly a whole year, and entered into every detail of this question. But unless rumour lie, as rumour has hardly ever lied before, the one thing that is certain from newspapers and inspired communications to the Press and elsewhere, is that the principle of a Joint Session or a Joint Conference
  1668
  was adopted, and that it was on those lines that the discussions of the Conference were prolonged for so many months. We are not likely to hear an answer—
  The PRIME MINISTER: I would recommend my hon. Friend not to place too implicit credence on what he reads in the Press.
  Mr. HARRY LAWSON: It is not what I read in the Press; it is what I do not read in the Press; it is what does not appear in the Press, to which one does attach a certain amount of credence if one has an opportunity of seeing it. I am not, however, pressing the point. I only say, again, it is a deplorable thing that we do not know more. I venture to think we are justified in assuming that it was the principle of a Joint Session or Joint Conference upon which so prolonged a discussion took place, and which the highest hopes were raised. Whether that is so or not, I quite agree with my right hon. Friend who has just spoken, that the whole hope of working this Bill, and the whole hope of working a Constitution such as we are fixing now, rests upon the adoption of the principle of a Joint Session or Joint Conference. Perhaps that may not be quite the same thing; but the Prime Minister very well knows that there is not a fixed Constitution in the world, and all the Constitutions are fixed except our own, in which that principle has not been adopted. Whether it has been often re sorted to in practice is another matter, but it has been adopted after the most ample discussion, and adopted and carried to its furthest point in practical working in the United States. I am not now going into that which we can gather from the Reports in the Library, but does not foreign example tell us the way, and, after all, as we are now fixing our Constitution, we have every reason to listen to those who have framed Constitutions abroad. It is congruous to our own Constitution.
  Everybody knows that the conferences that took place in the eighteenth century between these two Houses were not a matter of form, that they were genuine in every sense of the word, and that it would be possible to adapt them to present day conditions and to derive very great advantage from them. And if it is congruous to our own history as well as in accord with every element of approved Constitutions in other countries, I say it is an extraordinary thing that the Government

  1669
  do not intend to introduce any such principle in this Bill, and do not provide any substitute for it. I should like to know how they think our institutions are going to work in the future without the spirit of compromise. You may alter machinery, or rather, you may provide new machinery as much as you like, but unless there is a spirit of accommodation between the two Houses, that machinery is bound to break down. I do not believe it is possible to provide that machinery unless there is some such principle as this introduced. I think it is a lamentable thing that we should not have anything suggested which will solve the difficulties that are bound to arise between the two Houses except by exasperation between us, which is bound in the end to produce worse results. The Prime Minister knows very well, he said so, that if the House of Lords exert their powers under this Bill, they may make almost all legislation impossible by delay. He anticipates that they will not. The only way in which it is possible to bring about a revival of that spirit of compromise, which has obtained in a large measure in the past, and which must obtain if we are to preserve our reputation as a people of common-sense in politics, is by introducing some such proposal as this. I do not suppose that a Joint Session in the old sense is possible, but I believe that a Joint Conference is not only possible but feasible, and although the Prime Minister tells me that I have no reason to put any trust in report, I fancy we were very nearly arriving at a settlement on that basis in the constitutional Conference of last year. It is a great pity that by agreement he cannot open his mouth and tell us, as I know he would, how nearly a settlement was reached, and whether this was not the means by which he hoped to bring it about.
  Lord HUGH CECIL: I quite agree with my right hon. Friend that a Joint Session really depends for its success upon some relaxation of party spirit on the part of its Members. It is quite certain that unless there were such a relaxation it would be merely a useless formality. Therefore, I think it may be said that the Joint Sessions peculiar sphere of usefulness would not be on great party issues, but in regard to other measures on which there was a difference of opinion, but which did not so deeply excite party feeling. I conceive, indeed, that party measures might be dealt with in that way when not only the Upper House has been reformed, but when
  1670
  this House also has been reformed, as I should like to see it reformed, on some proportional system, which would make it less disproportionately of one way of thinking or the other, and therefore make it work more smoothly in a Joint Session. The point I desire to make is, whether you have a Joint Session or a Referendum, either is better than the proposal which the Government put forward. What is proposed in the Bill? It is that for two, I was going to say blessed years, but they would be anything but blessed, we should be handed over on great controversial questions to a period of unceasing agitation. The proceedings of this House on purely party issues would be useless and degrading, because they would be merely a reiteration under party pressure of the same proposition three times over. In the country there would be unceasing agitation, a great effort being made to bring public opinion to bear, the success of which effort would entirely depend on whether the Government could be tripped up on some other issue before the two years had elapsed. It is like a lunatic nightmare.
  Conceive a self-respecting country submitting to this Constitution! Everyone would be careering over the country holding meetings, agitating here and agitating there, except a few who stayed in London to take advantage of some party split or some trivial opportunity in the way of a snap division or any other method of getting the Government turned out before the fateful two years had elapsed. I am sure that that system will not survive a single Parliament. However the matter is settled, whether by Joint Session or by Referendum, or by a combination of the two, which would probably be best, it will not be settled in this way. The system of handing over the country to agitation on great controversial matters, and leaving the House of Commons merely to reiterate its opinion three times over is a method as unstatesmanlike as foolish, and as temporary as it is possible for any wild politician to conceive.
  Mr. PEEL: The Prime Minister treated this Amendment with great contempt, but I have noticed that when the right hon. Gentleman is specially sarcastic the Amendments are particularly good. They apparently cause him searchings of heart, and in my experience irritation is always engendered by searchings of heart. We ought to bear in mind the very clear distinction between Joint Sessions and joint conferences, because there is another

  1671
  Amendment on the Paper dealing with the latter, whereas this Amendment deals with Joint Sessions. A Joint Session is final; it is, as it were, plenipotentiary; whereas conferences are not. The latter merely refer back to the House from which they come a question on which they may have arrived at agreement, and those Houses have to say whether or not they will agree to the arangement made. That is an absolute distinction between the two, which has not always been kept clearly in view. The hon. Member who broke the silence on the benches opposite went even further than the Prime Minister, whose argument—it is not a very original one—was that he could not use Joint Sessions because the House of Lords is wrongly constituted at present.
  The hon. Member, who spoke with some experience of other countries, said that as a basis for a Joint Session you must have Chambers similarly constituted. I think that is going much too far. First of all, you would suppose that in bringing about a Joint Session between two Houses at war you might assume that there was a difference of composition between the two Houses, otherwise they might not be at war. The hon. Member knows that all those philosophers, politicians, or statesmen who support a bi-cameral system have always searched about to try and find some basis on which the Second Chamber should be constituted. One reason why the Second Chamber in this country has been so much admired, I do not say imitated, is that it is has been constituted on a totally different basis. When statesmen are searching about for a Second Chamber in other countries, they find the greatest difficulty in drawing a distinction between the First Chamber and the Second. Therefore, I hope the hon. Member does not rule out entirely Second Chambers constituted to some extent on a different basis from that of the First Chamber. If he ties them down to Chambers constituted on the same basis he is getting very near a Second Chamber which, under those circumstances, would be almost useless or worthless, and is nearly arriving in his argument at a Single Chamber basis. The argument in this case is very different from what it was on the first Clause. We were told then that it was no good talking about a reformed Second Chamber, because the powers were to be the same whatever the Second Chamber might be. Here the question is quite different.
  1672
  I would ask the Prime Minister whether, when he has reformed the Second Chamber, he will be prepared to face these different arrangements which he rejects with such contempt when they are applied to the Chamber as at present constituted. I am a strong supported of Joint Sessions. I agree with my Noble Friend as regards what would happen in the two years. What you want to do in making your constitutional arrangements is to avoid every source of friction possible. You want to avoid them as regards classes and as regards Houses and Constitutions. Is it not therefore better to try to arrive at that result by getting the two Houses to agree? There are many points on which they would probably agree if they could come together. Many Amendments when explained in the course of discussion between the two Houses would probably appear to be not nearly so important as they appear in the heated atmosphere of the separate Chambers. I believe that as regards not only the dignity of the two Houses but also the respect in which they were held by the people, the position would be greatly improved if it were found that the two Houses could agree by the method of Joint Session on matters which at first sight seemed to be very controversial. We have to remember that possibly even the House of Commons is not regarded with great respect outside.
  I do not think that all-night sittings and so forth are followed with much interest in the country. If we were able to settle our difficulties between one House and the other by conferences or peaceful arrangements of that kind, I am confident that there would be amongst the people far greater respect for, and a far higher opinion of, those Chambers and their constitution than could be secured in any other way. It cannot be good to have the two Chambers constantly at war. In dealing with Amendments the Government have been too ready to consider how they could hit the Second Chamber. They seem to have been too much influenced by the feeling aroused by the House of Lords during the last few years, and they have not been looking further ahead as to the real principle which ought to obtain as between the two Chambers. That principle is good feeling and confidence. You ought to strive to eliminate every possible cause of friction and to bring about the utmost confidence between the two Chambers. I am convinced that this system of Joint Session is the simplest and best

  1673
  method by which that growth of confidence can be brought about.
  Mr. J. M. HENDERSON: This Amendment presupposes two Houses which are coequal. That may be the constitution of some countries; it is not the constitution of this. If you are to have Joint Sessions it must mean that the vote of the other House is to count as equal with the vote of this House. [An HON. MEMBER: "No."] Then how is it to count? We hear a great deal about Single Chamber government, but hon. Members opposite seem to forget that, as a matter of fact, the highest Constitutional authorities will tell you that there is a point at which the House of Lords must give way to this House. What is the meaning of that? It means that this House, as representing the electorate, is what Professor Dicey has called "the political sovereign of the State." If that be so, are you going to create a Second Chamber, even a reformed Second Chamber, which is to have equal powers with this House in ordinary legislation? If you do, you are going to effect a revolution far worse than anything proposed in the Parliament Bill. The best text books will tell you that there is a point at which the House of Lords must give way to this House, and then we come to the creation of Peers. But we cannot go on creating peers for ever. This Bill fixes the point at which the Lords shall give way. I oppose the proposal for Joint Sessions because it starts with the principle that you are going to have men meeting men of equal power. That is not so. The Members of this House—be it good or be it bad, that is the Constitution—have the right so long as they represent the electorate to demand that their will shall prevail at some point or other.
  Lord HUGH CECIL: The people's will.
  Mr. J. M. HENDERSON: We represent the people. You say that we have got no mandate for this Bill. Does anybody say that? Of course you cannot say that! Look at "The Times 'of 17th December. What do you find there? They say: "We accept the fact that this Bill has been before the constituencies on two occasions." What does that mean? If ever there was a mandate for any Bill surely it is this Parliament Bill? I for one should certainly object to any Joint Session that would in any way adumbrate the idea of power to the other House. I do not care if it is a reformed House. This House, if it is going
  1674
  to represent the people, must ultimately prevail. I say the Second Chamber may delay and discuss and set the Press discussing throughout the country on any subject, but you must return to what Professor Dicey says is the Constitution. He says:—
  "That the House of Lords is expected, in every serious political controversy, to give way at some point or other to the will of the House of Commons, expressing the deliberate desire of the nation."
  That being so, I do submit we have no case for a Joint Session with the other House, which admittedly has not the same power as we have.
  Sir F. BANBURY: The hon. Gentleman opposite has rather misunderstood Professor Dicey. The whole position is that the House of Lords surrenders, not to the House of Commons, but to the people. That is the whole difference between hon. Gentlemen on that side of the House and hon. Gentlemen on this side of the House. We are always prepared to obey the will of the people when that will has been ascertained. [Laughter.] Hon. Gentle men may laugh, but you cannot have a better instance that what I say is correct than what took place last year. The House of Lords threw out the Budget of 1909. The people expressed their will through their representatives at the new election in December that that Bill should be passed, and the House of Lords at once bowed to the decision of the people and passed the Bill. That is a recent instance of what I am contending for that the House of Lords and hon. Gentlemen on this side of the House have submitted to the will of the people when that will has been ascertained and declared. Where hon. Gentle men opposite go wrong, if I may say so, is that they have got a fixed idea in their heads that if they get elected by a chance decision that whatever they may—
  The CHAIRMAN: The question is that of Joint Sessions.
  Sir F. BANBURY: I apologise for not speaking upon the Amendment. I was at the moment replying to the hon. Gentlemen who advanced certain reasons for not supporting the Amendment. But I will not pursue that any further. In regard to the question of Joint Sessions, I would very much like to see things left as they are, and that no alteration should be made of any sort or kind. I am contented with the present system. There are people who in five years time will regret the change that is proposed. But if there is

  1675
  to be a change, if this Bill is to be passed, it is perhaps well to make the best of a bad job, and make some arrangement by which the two Houses may meet together and consult upon their differences. I do not hold the view that there is any chance of the Government accepting this Amendment, because I have long since come to the conclusion that any Amendment, however reasonable, proposed on this side of the House, will not be accepted. Perhaps for the moment I forget that the suggestion I put forward was promised consideration on Report, and it is possible that I may have had some influence on the Government, but I am afraid we are rather wasting time. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."] I mean the time of this House, for in pointing out where we think the Bill requires Amendment it does not at all follow that we are wasting the time of the country. On the contrary, in our arguments as to Joint Sessions we have another electorate, that is the country, where possibly these arguments may have weight. It is a bad thing for any body of men to be supreme in anything, whether they be Radicals, Conservatives, or anything else.
  Captain TRYON: There is only one point I would like to put before the Committee. It is said that in regard to any question of Joint Session this House should be careful to guard itself from disadvantages at some future date. Objections to a Joint Session have been based on the present composition of the other House. But I understood that there was a Preamble to this Bill. That Preamble is intended to change the composition of the Upper House. It seems to me, therefore, an extraordinary thing that this Amendment is to be rejected by the House because it would only be effective if the Government carry out their policy.
  Mr. NIELD: I understand that the non-acceptance of this Amendment is based upon the theory that the Government have a mandate for this Bill, line by line, Clause by Clause, "the Bill, the whole Bill, and nothing but the Bill." Anything more ridiculous and absurd I never heard. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."] The cheers of hon. Members opposite show that hon. Gentlemen are very much like the witness who sometimes goes into the witness box at the Law Courts, and, after having been carefully drilled as to what he has to say, he has come to the conclusion that black is very emphatically
  1676
  white. Have we the right to say that the whole of this Bill was before the country, line by line, and was accepted by them as was the Reform Bill of 1832? I agree that the Reform Bill, which was formulated with its schedules, which set out which of the boroughs were to be disfranchised and which were to have one and which two Members, was before the country. If I may say so—and I say so with an amount of confidence as one who, not having been opposed at the last election was able to go about and assist my Friends who were—if there was one thing upon which this country decided, apart from the gross misrepresentation which accompanied the election, it was the question of whether this House was to be supreme in finance, and nothing else. I recall one thing that was put out by way of counter-attraction, a delectable poster, issued by the "Morning Leader," which represented a grotesque Peer protesting against the taxation of his land.
  Mr. BOOTH: On a point of Order—
  The CHAIRMAN: I do not understand the relevance of these arguments to the Amendment.
  Mr. NIELD: Well, Sir, the relevance is this: I was going to show, if hon. Members would have allowed me to proceed, but their laughter stopped me, that the only answer that is made to this Amendment is that the whole Bill was before the country, and that, therefore, the question of Joint Sessions was before the country. My retort to that is that it is a gross misrepresentation to say that the question of Joint Sessions was ever before the country. The Bill was not before the country. It was never discussed. The House of Lords was only allowed to peep at it by courtesy, but was refused the opportunity of discussing it. The object of this Amendment is to decide questions between the two Chambers which have no relation to questions of finance. To say that that matter is excluded by the mandate of the electorate in December is to add another gross misrepresentation to those which lie upon the consciences of hon. Gentlemen opposite, or certainly ought to do.
  Mr. MEYSEY-THOMPSON: The arguments of the Prime Minister on this occasion in refusing this Amendment—and others which we bring forward—goes to the root of the Government policy and bears out our contention that the Government refuses every Amendment not because

  1677
  he did not believe that Joint Sessions were or were not the best solution of the difficulty, but because he believed if we had Joint Sessions the majority would be invariably against his measures. The right hon. Gentleman pointed out that there was one occasion on which 270 were in favour of a particular measure, and in the House of Lords 274 were against it. The numbers were about equal to one another. I think that if we had Joint Sessions that probably agreement would be arrived at, unless the proposition of the Government was one bad for the country as a whole. In that case, if the Joint Session refused to pass the measure it would be to the very decided advantage of the country. If, on the other hand, the proposal was not bad for the country, I venture to suggest that a solution could be arrived at. I wish to make this point: The whole objection raised by the Prime Minister was not because he believed that Joint Sessions would not be the best way of solving the difficulty, but because he believed that if we had Joint Sessions the majority would be against the Government and against the measures that he brought forward. For the reasons I have given I shall support the Amendment.
  Captain NEWMAN: I listened with a certain astonishment to the cut-and-dried attitude taken up by the Liberal Front Bench in this matter. For good or ill, we are rewriting the British Constitution. I have listened to the whole of this debate very patiently, and I have not heard a single mention from the Front Bench opposite or the benches behind touching the constitution of foreign Chambers. Yet every single civilised country in Europe, or in the world, has had in the last fifty years to rewrite either wholly or partially its Constitution, and, therefore, we have surely got their information from which to draw. The great fiscal agitation in this country has done one thing. It has opened up the social and financial system of Germany to the people of this country.
  Mr. BOOTH: I desire to ask is this in order?
  The DEPUTY - CHAIRMAN (Mr. Whitley): I am waiting to see if the hon. Member is in order.
  Captain NEWMAN: Perhaps if the hon. Gentleman would wait I will get to my point, and he will get to his dinner. I should have thought that the great constitutional agitation now before the country would have sent hon. Members abroad to learn from foreign countries how to write the Constitution. Before I started to study this question I went to the Vote Office, and I asked for a return, which was issued at the expense of the taxpayers, in 1907. I asked for that paper, with a certain amount of trepidation, as I was afraid it was out of print, but the Clerk gave me a copy. I asked him if many Members had applied for this paper, and he said "No; it is not the sort of reading hon. Members of this House go in for." This paper is a great source of information. Take the case of Sweden. Sweden in the last few years had to re-write her Constitution. And what did Sweden provide in case of disagreement between the two Houses? She provided for a Joint Conference. The Re-port says: "On financial issues conflicts as they arise are decided by a joint vote. Financial questions when the two Chambers are in conflict are submitted to a common vote of both Houses, when an absolute majority decides." If that is good enough for a Constitution like Sweden it may be worthy of our consideration. Yet if we talk about conferences between the two Houses we are told the thing is impossible and not worth trying, and not good enough for us. I do suggest we might draw some information from the study of foreign countries on such matters as that we are now discussing.
  Question put, "That those words be there inserted."
  The Committee divided: Ayes, 167; Noes, 262.

  Division No. 180.]

  AYES.

  [8.5 p.m.

  Aitken, William Max.

  Bathurst, Charles (Wilton)

  Burn, Colonel C. R.

  Anton, Sir William Reynell

  Beach, Hon. Michael Hugh Hicks

  Carlile, Edward Hildred

  Ashley, w. W.

  Benn, Arthur Shirley (Plymouth)

  Cassel, Felix

  Astor, Waldorf

  Benn, Ion Hamilton (Greenwich)

  Castlereagh, Viscount

  Bagot, Lieut.-Colonel J.

  Bennett-Goldney, Francis

  Cautley, H. S.

  Baird, J. L.

  Bentinck, Lord H. Cavendish

  Cave, George

  Baldwin, Stanley

  Bird, Alfred

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Balfour, Ht. Hon. A. J. (City, Und.)

  Boscawen, Sackville T. Griffith.

  Cecil, Lord Hugh (Oxford University)

  Banbury, Sir Frederick George

  Boyle, W. L. (Norfolk, Mid)

  Chaloner, Colonel R. G. W.

  Baring, Captain Hon. G. V.

  Boyton, James

  Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry

  Barlow, Montague (Salford, South)

  Bridgeman, W. Clive

  Clay, Captain H. H. Spender

  Barnston, Harry

  Bull, Sir William James

  Cooper, Richard Ashmole

  Barrie, H. T. (Londonderry, N.)

  Burdett-Coutts, W.

  Courthope, George Loyd

  Craig, Charles Curtis (Antrim, S.)

  Hume-Williams, W. E.

  Pryce-Jones, Colonel E.

  Craig, Captain James (Down, E.)

  Ingleby, Holcombe

  Ratcliff, Major R. F.

  Craig, Norman (Kent, Thanet)

  Jardine, Ernest (Somerset, East)

  Rice, Hon. W. F.

  Craik, Sir Henry

  Kebty-Fletcher, J. R.

  Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall)

  Crichton-Stuart, Lord Ninian

  Kerr-Smiley, Peter Kerr

  Rolleston, Sir John

  Cripps, Sir C. A.

  Kerry, Earl of

  Rutherford, W. (Liverpool, W. Derby)

  Croft, H. P.

  King, Sir Henry Seymour (Hull)

  Salter, Arthur Clavell

  Dalrymple, Viscount

  Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement

  Samuel, Sir Harry (Norwood)

  Dalziel, O. (Brixton)

  Kirkwood, J. H. M.

  Sanders, Robert Arthur

  Dickson, Rt. Hon. C. Scott

  Lane-Fox, G R.

  Sanderson, Lancelot

  Dixon, C. H.

  Larmor, Sir J.

  Smith, Harold (Warrington)

  Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers

  Law, Andrew Bonar (Bootle, Lancs.)

  Spear, John Ward

  Du Cros, Arthur Philip

  Lee, Arthur H.

  Stanier, Beville

  Duke, Henry Edward

  Locker-Lampson, O. (Ramsey)

  Stanley, Hon. G. F. (Preston)

  Eyres-Monsell, B. M.

  Lockwood, Rt. Hon. Lt.-Col. A. R.

  Starkey, John R.

  Falle, B. G.

  Long, Rt. Hon. Walter

  Stewart, Gershom

  Fell, Arthur

  Lonsdale, John Brownlee

  Strauss, Arthur (Paddington, N.)

  Fisher, W. Hayes

  Lowe, Sir F. W. (Birm., Edgbaston)

  Swift, Rigby

  Fitzroy, Hon. E. A.

  Lowther, Claude (Cumberland, Eskdale)

  Sykes, Alan John

  Fletcher, John Samuel (Hampstead)

  Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. A. (Hanover Sq.)

  Talbot, Lord E.

  Foster, Philip Staveley

  Lyttelton, Hon. J. C. (Droitwich)

  Terrell, G. (Wilts, N. W.)

  Gardner, Ernest

  MacCaw, Win. J. MacGeagh

  Thomson, W. Mitchell- (Down, North)

  Gastrell, Major W. H.

  Mackinder, H. J.

  Thynne, Lord A.

  Gilmour, Captain J.

  M'Mordie, Robert

  Tobin, Alfred Aspinall

  Goldman, C. S.

  Magnus, Sir Philip

  Tryon, Capt. George Clement

  Goldsmith, Frank

  Mason, James F. (Windsor)

  Walker, Col. William Hall

  Gordon, J.

  Meysey-Thompson, E. C.

  Ward, Arnold S. (Herts, Watford)

  Goulding, Edward Alfred

  Middlemore, John Throgmorton

  Wheler, Granville C. H.

  Grant, J. A.

  Mildmay, Francis Bingham

  White, Major G. D. (Lancs., Southport)

  Greene, W. R.

  Mount, William Arther

  Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset, W.)

  Guinness, Hon. W. E.

  Neville, Reginald J. N.

  Willoughby, Major Hon. Claud

  Gwynne, R. S. (Sussex, Eastbourne)

  Newman, John R. P.

  Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E. R.)

  Haddock, George Bahr

  Newton, Harry Kottingham

  Wolmer, Viscount

  Hambro, Angus Valdemar

  Nield, Herbert

  Wood, Hon. E. F. L. (Ripon)

  Hardy, Laurence

  Orde-Powlett, Hon. W. G. A.

  Wood, John (Stalybridge)

  Helmsley, Viscount

  Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William

  Worthington-Evans, L. (Colchester)

  Hickman, Colonel T. E.

  Parker, Sir Gilbert (Gravesend)

  Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-

  Hill, Sir Clement L.

  Parkes, Ebenezer

  Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

  Hills, J. W.

  Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington)

  Yerburgh, Robert

  Hill-Wood, Samuel

  Peel, Captain R. F. (Woodbridge)

  Younger, George

  Hohler, G. F.

  Peel, Hon. W. R. W. (Taunton)

  Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield)

  Perkins, Walter Frank

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Viscount

  Horner, A. L.

  Pole-Carew, Sir R.

  Valentia and Mr. H. W. Forster.

  Houston, Robert Paterson

  Pollock, Ernest Murray

  NOES.

  Abraham, William (Dublin Harbour)

  Byles, William Pollard

  Ferens, T. R.

  Abraham, Rt. Hon. William (Rhondda)

  Cawley, Sir Frederick (Prestwich)

  Ffrench, Peter

  Acland, Francis Dyke

  Cawley, Harold T. (Heywood)

  Field, William

  Adamson, William

  Chapple, Dr. William Allen

  Fitzgibbon, John

  Addison, Dr. C.

  Clancy, John Joseph

  Flavin, Michael Joseph

  Adkins, W. Ryland D.

  Clough, William

  France, G. A.

  Agar-Robartes, Hon. T. C. R.

  Clynes, J. R.

  Gelder, Sir William Alfred

  Agnew, Sir George William

  Collins, Godfrey P. (Greenock)

  Gill, A. H.

  Alden, Percy

  Compton-Rickett, Rt. Hon. Sir J.

  Glanville, Harold James

  Allen, Arthur Acland (Dumbartonshire)

  Condon, Thomas Joseph

  Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford

  Allen, Charles P. (Stroud)

  Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow)

  Goldstone, Frank

  Asquith, Rt. Hon. Herbert Henry

  Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.

  Greenwood, Granville G. (Peterborough)

  Baker, H. T. (Accrington)

  Cotton, William Francis

  Greig, Colonel J. W.

  Balfour, Sir Robert (Lanark)

  Cowan, W. H.

  Gwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway)

  Barnes, G. N.

  Crawshay-Williams, Eliot

  Hall, Frederick (Normanton)

  Barran, Sir J. (Hawick)

  Crumley, Patrick

  Hancock, J. G.

  Barry, Redmond John (Tyrone, N.)

  Cullinan, J.

  Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose)

  Barton, William

  Dalziel, Sir James H. (Kirkcaldy)

  Hardie, J. Keir

  Beale, W. P.

  Davies, Ellis William (Eifion)

  Harmsworth, R. L.

  Beauchamp, Edward

  Davies, Timothy (Lincs., Louth)

  Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale)

  Beck, Arthur Cecil

  Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.)

  Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, W.)

  Benn, W. W. (Tower Hamlets, St. Geo.)

  Davies, M. Vaughan. (Cardigan)

  Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N. E.)

  Bentham, G. J.

  Dawes, James Arthur

  Harwood, George

  Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine

  Delany, William

  Haslam, James (Derbyshire)

  Black, Arthur W.

  Denman, Hon. Richard Douglas

  Haworth, Arthur A.

  Boland, John Pius

  Dillon, John

  Hayden, John Patrick

  Booth, Frederick Handel

  Doris, W.

  Hayward, Evan

  Bowerman, Charles W.

  Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness)

  Helme, Norval Watson

  Boyle, D. (Mayo, N.)

  Duncan, J. Hastings (York, Otley)

  Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

  Brace, William

  Edwards, Allen C. (Glamorgan, E.)

  Henderson, J. M'D. (Aberdeen, W)

  Brady, J. P.

  Edwards, Enoch (Hanley)

  Herbert, Col. Sir Ivor

  Brigg, Sir John

  Elibank, Rt. Hon. Master of

  Hinds, John

  Brocklehurst, W. B.

  Elverston, H.

  Hodge, John

  Brunner, J. F. L.

  Esmonde, Dr. John (Tipperary, N.)

  Holt, Richard Durning

  Bryce, J. Annan

  Esmonde, Sir Thomas (Wexford, N.)

  Hope, John Deans (Haddington)

  Burns, Rt. Hon. John

  Essex, Richard Walter

  Howard, Hon. Geoffrey

  Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas

  Falconer, J.

  Hughes, Spencer Leigh

  Buxton, Rt. Hon. Sydney C. (Poplar)

  Fenwick, Charles

  Hunter, W. (Govan)

  1680

  1681

  Isaacs, Sir Rufus Daniel

  Neilson, Francis

  Rowntree, Arnold

  John, Edward Thomas

  Nolan, Joseph

  Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland)

  Johnson, William

  Norton, Capt. Cecil W.

  Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees)

  Jones, Sir D. Brynmor (Swansea)

  Nugent, Sir Walter Richard

  Scanlan, Thomas

  Jones, Leif Stratten (Notts, Rushcliffe)

  O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

  Seely, Col., Right Hon. J. E. B.

  Jones, William (Carnarvonshire)

  O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)

  Sheehy, David

  Jones, W. S. Glyn- (T. H'mts., Stepney)

  O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)

  Sherwell, Arthur James

  Jowett, F. W.

  O'Doherty, Philip

  Simon, Sir John Allsebrook

  Joyce, Michael

  O'Dowd, John

  Smith, Albert (Lancs., Clitheroe)

  Keating, M.

  Ogden, Fred

  Smith, H. B. L. (Northampton)

  Kellaway, Frederick George

  O'Kelly, Edward P. (Wicklow, W.)

  Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.)

  Kelly, Edward

  O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N.)

  Snowden, P.

  Kennedy, Vincent Paul

  O'Malley, William

  Stanley, Albert (Staffs, N. W.)

  Kilbride, Denis

  O'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, S.)

  Strauss, Edward A. (Southwark, West)

  King, Joseph (Somerset, North)

  O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

  Summers, James Woolley

  Lamb, Ernest Henry

  O'Shee, James John

  Sutton, John E.

  Lambert, George (Devon, S. Molton)

  O'Sullivan, Timothy

  Taylor, John W. (Durham)

  Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade)

  Palmer, Godfrey M.

  Tennant, Harold John

  Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, West)

  Parker, James (Halifax)

  Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.)

  Lawson, Sir W. (Cumb'rl'nd Cockerm'th)

  Pearce, Robert (Staffs., Leek)

  Thomas, J. H. (Derby)

  Levy, Sir Maurice

  Pearce, William (Limehouse)

  Ure, Rt. Hon. Alexander

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Pearson, Hon. Weetman H. M.

  Walsh, Stephen (Lancs., Ince)

  Logan, John William

  Pease, Rt. Hon. Joseph A. (Rotherham)

  Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent)

  Lundon, Thomas

  Phillips, John (Longford, S.)

  Ward, W. Dudley (Southampton)

  Lynch, Arthur Alfred

  Pickersgill, Edward Hare

  Wardle, George J.

  Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester)

  Pirie, Duncan V.

  Waring, Walter

  Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk Burghs)

  Pointer, Joseph

  Warner, Sir Thomas Courtenay

  Maclean, Donald

  Pollard, Sir George H.

  Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney)

  MacNeill, John Gordon Swift

  Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H.

  Wason, Rt. Hon. E. (Clackmannan)

  MacVeagh, Jeremiah

  Power, Patrick Joseph

  Watt, Henry A.

  M'Callum, John M.

  Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central)

  White, Sir Luke (York, E. R.)

  McKenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald

  Priestley, Sir W. E. B. (Bradford, E.)

  Whitehouse, John Howard

  M'Laren, H. D. (Leics., Bosworth)

  Pringle, William M. R.

  Whittaker, Rt. Hon. Sir Thomas P.

  M'Laren, F. W. S. (Lincs., Spalding)

  Radford, George Heynes

  Wiles, Thomas

  M'Laren, Walter S. B. (Ches., Crewe)

  Raffan, Peter Wilson

  Wilkie, Alexander

  M'Micking, Major Gilbert

  Rainy, A. Rolland

  Williams, J. (Glamorgan)

  Markham, Arthur Basil

  Rea, Rt. Hon. Russell (South Shields)

  Williams, Penry (Middlesbrough)

  Marks, G. Croydon

  Reddy, Michael

  Wilson, Hon. G. G. (Hull, West)

  Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.)

  Redmond, John E. (Waterford)

  Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R.)

  Meehan, Patrick A. (Queen's Co.)

  Redmond, William (Clare)

  Wilson, John (Durham, Mid)

  Menzies, Sir Walter

  Richards, Thomas

  Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughten)

  Molloy, M.

  Richardson, Thomas (Whitehaven)

  Winfrey, Richard

  Molteno, Percy Alport

  Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)

  Wood, T. M'Kinnon (Glasgow)

  Money, L. G. Chiozza

  Roberts, George H. (Norwich)

  Young, Samuel (Cavan, E.)

  Montagu, Hon. E. S.

  Roberts, Sir J. H. (Denbighs.)

  Young, W. (Perthshire, E.)

  Morrell, Philip

  Robertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradford)

  Yoxall, Sir James Henry

  Muldoon, John

  Robinson, Sydney

  Munro, Robert

  Roche, Augustine (Louth)

  Munro-Ferguson, Rt. Hon. R. C.

  Roche, John (Galway, E.)

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr. Illingworth and Mr. Gulland.

  Nannetti, Joseph P.

  Roe, Sir Thomas

  Needham, Christopher T.

  Rose, Sir Charles Day

  Mr. HUME-WILLIAMS: I beg to move in Sub-section (1) to leave out the words, "in three successive sessions (whether of the same Parliament or not"),
  The Amendment which I move is to leave out the words "three successive sessions," but the real purport of the Amendment is to provide that, in case of a disagreement between the two Houses, the question at issue shall be referred to a Conference of ten members of each House of Parliament. That procedure is to be followed on each occasion when differences arise between the two Houses. I hope this is an Amendment which in one form or another will meet with acceptance at the hands of the Government. There is for this suggestion so much weight and authority in the utterances of the Members of the Government themselves, that if there is any logic left in the Front Bench I hope they will see their way to accept either the words or the purport of this
  1682
  Amendment. The scheme which is now in the Bill, the Committee will remember, was introduced to this House for the first time by Sir Henry Campbell-Bannerman, the Leader of the Liberal Party in 1907, in a Resolution declaring that the decision of the Commons must prevail. In the speech in which the right hon. Gentleman introduced that Resolution to the notice of the House, he outlined the very scheme which is embodied in the Amendment which I now have the honour of submitting to the Committee. The right hon. Gentleman explained that his scheme was that:—
  "Where a Bill was sent up to the other House, and where they found agreement impossible, a conference of small dimensions, and whose proceedings would be private, should be held between Members appointed in equal numbers by the two Houses, to seek for common measure of agreement which the Government might find itself able to adopt. If the conference should be improductive, and if the same Bill, with or without modifications, or a similar Bill were introduced after a substantial interval—a minimum of perhaps six months except in cases of great urgency—it would be passed by the Commons without limitation as to time, discussion being restricted as far as possible to the new

  1683
  matter (if any) introduced. The Bill would then be sent up again to the Lords so that they could again consider it. If there was still a difference a conference might again be summoned."
  I need not read the whole of the passage, but I may say that the triple arrangement suggested in the Amendment is outlined. Speaking to the Resolution in the House of Commons on 24th June, 1907, Sir Henry Campbell-Bannerman said:—
  "Informal conferences between Members of the Government and Opposition in the two Houses have, of course, not infrequently been held since that date, and sometimes good results have followed. But what the Government proposes is that statutory provision should be made for such meetings in the event of disagreement, and that the conference should occupy a definite place in the transactions between the two Houses."
  We come down to 1910, and in that year the right hon. Gentleman the Prime Minister, in introducing the Veto Resolutions, spoke further on this subject, and this is what he said:—
  "I am disposed to think further that in the actual working of this system—I am referring to a statement model by Sir Henry Campbell-Bannerman when he brought in this Resolution three years ago—we might possibly find ourselves able when we are working the machinery of this Bill, to incorporate in some form or another a provision to the effect that although Amendments are not actually agreed to by the House of Lords yet, as a result of a conference between the two Houses—a conference held in conformity with Standing Orders or Rules which each House would be at liberty for itself to adopt—an agreement might be arrived at that in certain particulars the Bill should be introduced in a reamended form, but it might also for this purpose be treated as the same Bill."
  In order to show how much this scheme was actively in the mind of the Government, I will further quote to the Committee the words of Lord Crewe, who, speaking in the other House on 21st November last, said:—
  "Perhaps I may be permitted very briefly to remind your Lordships of what the terms of the plan at that time were. Speaking generally they were these. When a disagreement occurred between the two Houses a private conference was to take place, and if agreement was not arrived at through that conference the Bill was lost for the time. It could be reintroduced either with or without amendment after a period of six months, and if the two Houses again failed to agree a second conference was to be called. If agreement was not then reached, the Bill was to be reintroduced and passed by some rapid process, and a third conference might be held, but if agreement was then not reached the Bill was to become law over the heads of your Lordships' House."
  Later in his speech Lord Crewe referred again to this matter, and laid very exceptional stress on the importance of conferences. He said:—
  "In the earlier proposals much was said about conferring between the two Houses, and it is a matter upon which the late Prime Minister dwelt at length when he introduced his proposals. The Bill which is before us does not explicitly provide for the holding of conferences, but in the opinion of the framers of the Bill the holding of conferences is a cardinal matter in relation to the whole question."
  1684
  Why has it ceased to be a cardinal matter? Why has there been eliminated from the scheme of the Government proposals which Lord Crewe, speaking in the House of Lords, ear-marked as being cardinal to the Bill. Lord Crewe further went on to say:—
  "Nothing, I think, is more curious to anyone who takes the trouble to look at the history of the relations between the two Houses than the gradual decline and final disuse of the practice of conferences between the Lords and the Commons. The causes may be numerous, but one cause undoubtedly was that the later conferences which were held—I am speaking for the moment of formal conferences—seem to have become so rigid and so unnatural in their character, that it was felt that the practice curried with it little of value. But I do not hesitate to say that in my opinion one of the reasons why the relations between the two Houses have hardened and crystallised into their present condition—a condition, that is to say, of something like perpetual conflict when one party is in power, and of perpetual acquiescence when the other party is in power—may be traced to the complete abandonment of this habit of conferring. Conferences between the two Houses are of old date."
  Then he uses words which seem to go to the very root of the question. He said:—
  "I therefore do not hesitate to say that the revival of the custom of frequent conferences between the two Houses is of the very essence of the proposals which we are placing before your Lordships to-day."
  There is one further quotation which I will make from the speech of the present Home Secretary, who, speaking in this House on 12th April, 1910, in reply to the Leader of the Opposition, said:—
  "But we certainly do contemplate, during the period when the measure will be in suspense and under the Suspensory Veto of the House of Lords, a system whereby every effort shall be made constantly and continually to secure the greatest possible measure of agreement and of compromise between the two parties, and to make the ultimate legislation, as far as possible, representative, not merely of the majority, but of all classes in the community, and we shall labour to introduce into our proposals the necessary machinery for that purpose."
  I trouble the Committee with those quotations because they seem to me to show that the proposals of the Government in 1907, right down to 1910, included some means for attempting to arrive at an agreement between the two Houses before the operation of Clause 2 and its consequent delay of two years. Let me point out the two alternatives. If you have no scheme introduced which makes it possible that by agreement differences which have arisen should be adjusted and that the Bill should pass, you are met with what I venture to speak of as this irritating delay of two years, a delay which it does not seem to me to be to the advantage of anybody. A Bill is introduced, and a difference having arisen, we are to wait for two years in order that popular opinion may be heard in the country. We are to sit silent waiting for the oracle to utter the

  1685
  decision, and we have to wait until wild politicians scour the country engaged in that party warfare known as educating the people. Popular agitation if that is to be made the only reason for a delay of two years is no indication of popular will. Half a dozen earnest young followers with a couple of trumpets and a drum can get up an agitation in this country upon any subject from the Celestial inconvenience in South Africa to the woes of the shepherd of Dartmoor. The truth of the matter is, until you really get some question which touches the emotions of the people, until you threaten their religion or awaken their patriotism, or until you threaten the nationality or the liberty of the country, you will not get any expression of popular opinion which is worth considering. Your agitations which occur with the aid of newspapers and cinematographs are worthless as any indication of popular opinion at all. Yet, as the Bill stands, unless some provision of this kind is incorporated, here we are to sit, and the Members of the other House are to sit solemnly for two years while nothing occurs except, as I say, a spurious agitation in the country; and I suppose at the end of that period, on a Friday afternoon, the Bill will be sent on its final journey to the House of Lords, and will become law. This Bill contains no provision of any sort or kind which gives any chance of obviating this delay. It appears to me the desire of the Government is to leave to the House of Lords in the future nothing but the power of irritation, because that is all that will result from hanging up a Bill for two years unless there is some chance of settling it in some way such as is indicated in the Amendment which I have proposed. Why have the Government left this scheme out? Why is it to be deleted from the Bill? Is it possible they do not want to give the House of Lords a chance of agreeing? It cannot be a question of machinery. It cannot be that to choose ten Members of this House is a task beyond the wit of the Government. Every day representative Committees are appointed for one purpose or another, and Members are chosen from either side of the House. The machinery presents no difficulty whatever. That which was dear to their hearts up to 1910 has disappeared in 1911, and I think it is legitimate to ask the Government why?
  Conferences are in this age a well-accepted means of arriving, or of attempting to arrive, at an agreement. They are in common use. Sometimes they succeed
  1686
  and sometimes they do not, but they are always worth a trial. We were told the other day by the Leader of the Opposition that opinions may still be swayed by argument in this House. If that is true, it is certainly more true that they would be swayed in conferences, discussing differences that had arisen with an honest desire to arrive at a conclusion. The Government are establishing for all time an entirely new departure in the Constitution. Let them at any rate attempt not to leave the House of Lords entirely impotent. Do you think your real House of Lords, when it comes into operation—when it does—will be content to sit strengthened—I presume the object of reform is to strengthen it—but absolutely powerless? I suggest to the Government, if they have a real desire not to create friction between the two Chambers but to leave the bi-cameral system as a working machine from a business point of view, then they ought in justice to the country and to those who are coming after them to accept, if not the Amendment at any rate something in the spirit of the Amendment, and in that hope I beg to move it.
  The POSTMASTER-GENERAL (Mr. Herbert Samuel): This Amendment raises a question of method rather than of principle, and I have no complaint to make of the speech in which the hon. and learned Member moved it, except one which arises from the fact that he has quite misapprehended the intentions which the Government have in this particular. The Government have by no means abandoned the idea that conferences should take place between the two Houses during the interval of two years or three Sessions pending which a Bill is in dispute between the two Chambers. The only change since the original proposals were made by Sir Henry Campbell-Bannerman in 1907 is this. We are now of opinion that such conferences can be more conveniently and more successfully established by the action of the two Houses through the Standing Orders or by special resolutions than by enshrining the proposals in the rigid terms of an Act of Parliament. Let me, however, safeguard myself in one particular. The Amendment of the hon. and learned Gentleman says: If a conference fails to secure an agreement between the two Houses on a particular Bill, then the Bill should be reconsidered by the House in which it had originated. I assume, however, he does not have in mind a conference which should consist, so to speak, of plenipotentiaries,

  1687
  and he does not suggest the decisions of the twenty members of that conference if they arrive at harmony should be binding upon the two Houses. Of course, the Government have no such scheme as that in mind, and certainly this House would never consent to place the whole of its powers in the hands of any ten of its Members, however representative or distinguished they might be, and guarantee to abide by their decision.
  The only point in dispute between us is whether the requirement that there should be conferences between the two Houses should be a statutory requirement or not. It is true, as the hon. and learned Gentleman says, that Sir Henry Campbell-Bannerman did use the word "statutory" and did contemplate that a proposal such as that just moved should find a place in the Bill; but the later quotations which the hon. and learned Gentleman made from the present Prime Minister and from Lord Crewe did not contemplate a statutory enactment. On the contrary, the Prime Minister, in words which the hon. and learned Gentleman himself has quoted, said the method could be carried out by the Standing Orders of the House, and he did not suggest that the proposal should be enshrined in the Bill. There are serious objections, which further consideration since the year 1907 have made clear to the Government, to embodying this proposal in the Statute itself. In the first place, of whom is this conference to be composed? The hon. and learned Gentleman merely said it is to consist of ten Members chosen by each House. On what principle are the ten Members to be chosen from each House? Are we to have necessarily only supporters of the Bill which is in dispute sent from the House of Commons, and consequently are we to have only objectors to the Bill sent from the House of Lords? In the old days when conferences were frequent between the two Houses, I believe any Member whose principles were opposed to the policy adopted by the House as a whole was not nominated to sit as a member of these conferences. In other words, in any dispute between the two Houses, and if each House had to choose ten Members and the Bill were a Government Bill, as it generally was, all the ten Members of the House of Commons would be chosen from the Government side of the House and the corollary of that would be that the House of Lords would choose ten
  1688
  Members all from the Opposition side. I am not at all sure a conference so composed would necessarily be the best to arrive at an agreement. Suppose it were a matter, for example, of education and the Bill had been attempted to be conducted through the House of Lords by the skilful and able leader of that House (Lord Crewe), whose temporary absence from its deliberations all parties regret, it would be obviously a disadvantage if such a statesman as Lord Crewe was precluded from being a member of that conference. Then the old system which the hon. and learned Member wishes to revive was deliberately abandoned by the two Houses because it gave rise to many inconveniences such as that which I have just mentioned. Since 1740 there has only been one free Conference between the two Houses and that was in the year 1836 on the Municipal Corporations Bill. It proved unsuccessful and the system was abandoned.
  There are two survivals in our Parliamentary practice. One is that when the two Houses disagree on Amendments it is customary to appoint a formal Committee, who send to the other House reasons for the disagreement of this House with their Amendment. That is a purely formal and perfunctory procedure. The Committee consists of Members chosen haphazard. They adjourn to a room behind the Speaker's chair and in one or two minutes they decide upon a message which is to go to the other House, and which is usually in this form: "That this House doth disagree with the Lords' Amendment because they deem it to be inexpedient to put it into the Bill." That is only a survival of the old days, a survival of the ancient system of formal conferences, but it indicates the progress of evolution, of the rule which previously existed. There is, however, another survival, a system of informal conferences which has frequently proved of infinite value. I mentioned just now the question of education. In connection with that we had one of these informal conferences, the Members of which were freely chosen among the Members of the House as best fitted to promote an agreement. Although at the last moment the proposals of that conference did not eventuate in the passage of the measure, nevertheless, on many other occasions of perhaps less importance, such conferences have succeeded, and many of us who have had charge of legislation—when I was at the

  1689
  Home Office I was connected with the passage of over a score of Bills into Acts of Parliament—are well aware of the extreme value of these informal conferences between the Minister in charge of the Bill and three or four Members of the other House who have taken most interest in the measure and have put down Amendments on which there is disagreement. Again and again these informal conferences have resulted in compromises being arrived at and in the ultimate passage of the measure into law.
  The Government believe that by the present method, or by some elaboration of it, it will be possible to maintain the system of conferences while abstaining from tying them down too tightly by Clauses in an Act of Parliament which, as I suggest, would not conduce to their success. Is it to be supposed that the Government of the day will force a Bill through the House three times in a period of two years in preference to paying heed to Amendments proposed by the other House? Is it to be supposed that they will brush aside any Amendments suggested by the House of Lords under such circumstances? It is not likely to be the case. Any Government, so long as it is not called upon to sacrifice the principle of the measure or to drop the essentials of the Bill would naturally be willing to arrive at some arrangement, if possible in the first year, rather than to have an agitation in the country proceeding over a period of two years and taking the time of the House in three Sessions in passing a Bill through. Therefore, we ought still to look forward to conferences being held as part of the machinery by means of which this Act will be worked, and we suggest it would be advisable to leave ease and freedom for the growth of that system. This Act must of necessity introduce a certain measure of rigidity into the working of our Parliamentary system. Whenever you attempt to write any part of the Constitution you do that, and the more it can be confined within a small area the better it is. In this particular where the views and opinions of both sides of the House have to be taken into consideration, it is better that the procedure of these conferences should be the growth of practice dictated by convenience rather than that it should be stereotyped by law.
  Sir WILLIAMANSON: I am glad the right hon. Gentleman is so sensitive of the risks of reducing any part of our Constitution into writing. That is the point which
  1690
  we have been impressing on the Government for some days past. We have endeavoured in vain to exclude as much as we could of our own Constitution from the perils of this Bill. We have pointed out again and again that the old unwritten Constitution is more elastic and altogether much more congenial than terms reducing the relationship of the two Houses in respect of legislation into writing. It is somewhat late on the part of the right hon. Gentleman; it is not only late, but it is ill-timed on his part, to ask us not to accept this not merely reasonable but very desirable Amendment. Sir Henry Campbell-Bannerman dealt with the unsatisfactory character of existing conferences, of conferences so dignified, so solemn, and so ceremonial that it was impossible to transact any business. But there are other conferences so loosely put together and so informal which yet sometimes produce results both sides desire to arrive at. Of course the sort of conference which is held behind the Speaker's chair, when reasons are signified for differing from the Amendments of the House of Lords are so formal and so quaint as really not to be worth mentioning as part of the business of legislation. But there are reasons, and I think substantial reasons, why we should carry out the expressed intention of Sir Henry Campbell-Bannerman that conferences not so ceremonial as the old conferences which we read of in Sir Erskine May—conferences for considering differences between the two Houses, should find their place on the Statute Book as a prominent part of the relations between the two Chambers. I am bound to say I think that the reason for putting this matter in statutory form has increased rather than diminished since Sir Henry Campbell-Bannerman made his speech. I have been very much struck by the temper in which during the last few years, and during these Debates our relations with the House of Lords have been described, and the attitude of hostility displayed by hon. Members to the Amendment of a Bill coming from this House, however reasonable that Amendment might be, by the House of Lords. That tone and attitude is taken not merely by hon. Members below the Gangway, but by Members of the Government, who attribute to the House of Lords hostility to any measures which are likely to be in the interest of the country.
  In those circumstances, assuming that the House of Commons will obtain the very large powers which this Bill confers upon

  1691
  it, and assuming that the House of Commons can use those powers without any communication with the House of Lords, or any attempt to settle such differences as may arise, I say that it is a desirable thing if conferences are in the contemplation of the Government and at the back of their mind, they have the idea that these great powers will not be unduly exercised and not exercised until the method of argument and discussion has been resorted to which may avoid the necessity for their exercise—then I say it would be very much better to put these Resolutions in black and white. Let us have them in the letter as well as in the spirit of the statute, and let us be assured that the powers of this House will not be exercised in an arbitrary way until every other method has been resorted to in order to settle the differences between the two Houses. The right hon. Gentleman dwelt upon what he described as the vagueness of my hon. and learned Friend's Amendment in respect to the persons who are to make up the Conference. He said it would be very unfortunate if some eminent person, such as the Earl of Crewe, were to be left out of a particular Conference as one of the representatives of the House of Lords, and he seemed to think that the Conference would be composed of Members of one party from one House and Members of the other party from the other House. I think he might have trusted a little more to the common sense of the two Houses. In the first place you have these vast powers which this Bill confers upon the House of Commons, and what is the object of constituting a conference so as to make a settlement impossible? If the two Houses agree to confer they do so with the hope more or less approaching to confidence that some accommodation will be found. If they enter into a conference in that belief, and in that hope, surely each House would so constitute its representative body as to ensure, if possible, that an agreement would be arrived at. I think, therefore, my hon. and learned Friend is sensible in his Amendment to leave it to the good sense of the Leaders of the two Houses to say who shall compose the body holding the conference. We think, in fact if we can ensure as we ought to ensure by statute the coming into existence of this machinery for settling differences, the probabilities are very strong that these great powers which have been conferred upon this House will not be resorted to.
  1692
  The hon. Member has referred to the Education Bill of 1906. If ever there was a contentious Bill it was that Bill. It was fought at great length, and with some asperity throughout the whole of the summer months of the year. It was elaborately discussed in the other House for some reason in an autumn Session, and an informal Conference took place somewhat hastily put together, and it worked under great disadvantages. There were strong feelings on each side, and a disinclination to give way to the other side. The year approached Christmas, and the necessity of having to work and do critical work in a very short time also had its effect, and yet I have every reason to believe that that conference as nearly approached success as any conference which failed could possibly do. Is it not desirable when we see in history the conferences of the past to which the right hon. Gentleman has referred, that we should use them, and not only should we use them, but that we should make it necessary by Statute to use them in order to avoid having recourse to the powers conferred by this Bill. It is impossible to suppose that your legislation will be acceptable unless some such measure of conference is adopted if there is strong feeling on both sides. If legislation is not accepted is it desirable that this House in the future should occupy itself Parliament after Parliament in the very unpleasant and undignified task of one party undoing the legislation of the other, and present such a spectacle as that to the country. It is most desirable, and I would urge the Government that any method which can be adopted should be adopted of avoiding the use of the power conferred upon the House and the Government by Clause 2 of this Bill. My hon. and learned Friend has put with great force a reasonable proposal—a proposal which has in very recent times commended itself to the Prime Minister and the party opposite—a proposal which reasonable as it was then, is even more desirable now. I venture, therefore, to ask the Government even at this late hour to reconsider the attitude expressed by the right hon. Gentleman.
  Mr. RIGBY SWIFT: Conferences between the two Houses of Parliament undoubtedly form part of our constitutional machinery. Of that there can be no question, and anybody who has studied the history of legislation in this country would admit the fact. It has been made quite

  1693
  clear by the remarks of the Postmaster-General. Conferences are not only a part of the constitutional machinery of our country, but they are also a most useful part of it, even although the more formal conferences which were more frequently used in the earlier part of our history have to some extent disappeared. But the system of informal conference has prevailed, and has frequently resulted in useful settlements of differences of opinion between the two Houses of Parliament. The Amendment seems to be one which is directed to preserving in our Constitution the system of conferences which has proved so useful in the past. I was much struck as I listened to the totally inadequate reply which the Government made to the suggestion that where you are putting into an Act of Parliament a portion of your Constitution it would be wrong further to include another part which is equally a part, and undoubtedly an important part, of your constitutional machinery. It is said that the right to hold conferences had better not be put into a Statute, because that would give to it a rigidity which the Constitution is better without. It might have been remembered by the Government when they commenced to put a part of our Constitution into the form of a Statute that the rigidity of Statute laws has disadvantages, but when they overlook that fact and commence to put a portion of the constitutional law into a written Constitution, and that portion of the Statute law which affects the relationship of the two Houses, there is no reason in the world why they should not put into their Statute the whole of the machinery which affects the relationship of the two Houses, and why they should omit from the Statute all reference to those conferences which in the past have proved so useful, and which the Government at the present time, following upon the principles laid down by Sir Henry Campbell-Bannerman, have no intention whatever of departing from. I suggest that the only reason mentioned by the Postmaster-General for not accepting this proposition, namely, that there would be a difficulty in saying whom the Conferences should be composed of, is really not a reason at all which can for a moment be seriously considered. There can be no difficulty. If you are to make Statute laws about the relation of the Houses your Standing Orders could quite easily regulate such a comparatively unimportant and trivial detail as to who shall be the selected Members of the two Houses to go
  1694
  to the conference. I hope it is not even now too late for the Members of the Government to consult their supporters who throng behind them and see whether they cannot, perhaps by an informal meeting of Cabinet Ministers, or by consultation with the more enthusiastic supporters below the Gangway, accept the Amendment.
  9.0 P.M.
  Mr. GARDNER: As I understand the Postmaster-General does not really object to the Amendment. He agrees with it in principle, but he objects to including it in the Statute. This whole Clause is putting something into a Statute which has really existed for generations. I challenge the right hon. Gentleman to point out any Bill upon which the House of Commons had set its heart which has gone up to the House of Lords three times and been rejected each time. Whatever the Postmaster-General says has taken place in regard to conferences in bygone times there is nothing obligatory on the House of Commons to go into a conference, and when they are putting so much more into the Statute they ought to put that in. It loses no time. The Government do not want the two Houses to be glaring angrily at one another for a period of two years over some particular Bill, but rather at the time to be occupied in trying to come to an agreement. Surely the Government do not want to quarrel with the House of Lords. They would rather have their legislation put through amicably than force it straight over the House of Lords. To adopt an Amendment of this kind would make it obligatory upon them to attempt, at any rate, to come to an agreement. Without this it appears to me it entirely rests on the House of Commons as to whether they shall go into a Conference or not, and I do not wonder that there is great doubt as to whether, when a difference of opinion arises, the House of Commons would care to take the course of attempting to confer or of conferring with the House of Lords. There is no time lost in regard thereto. The Amendment does not weaken the Bill in any way whatever. It only carries out what the Minister himself agrees should be done, and why it cannot be adopted I cannot conceive. It can only be refused, to my mind, to keep the House of Commons entirely independent of the other House in regard to coming to an agreement, and unless legislation is to be brought about concurrently I do not think it is the right course simply to leave it in its hands entirely as to whether any agreement

  1695
  should be attempted or not. The adoption of the Amendment would make it obligatory on the part of the House of Commons to attempt it.
  Mr. JAMES HOPE: The Postmaster-General, I gather, rather repudiated what was said by Sir Henry Campbell-Banner-man in 1907. He admitted that it was then the intention of the Government to give statutory effect to this provision of a Conference. That assurance of the then Prime Minister was one of the most emphatic kind. He said:—
  "What the Government proposes is that statutory provision shall be made for such meetings in the event of disagreement, and that Conferences should occupy a definite place in the transactions between the two Houses."
  That, I understand, is their view, on the ground that subsequent reflection has convinced the Government that it would be an inexpedient course. May I remind the right hon. Gentleman of what Lord Crewe said on 21st November last:—
  "The holding of Conferences is a cardinal matter in relation to the whole question."
  He went on to say—
  The CHAIRMAN: I ought to point out that this has been read twice to the Committee.
  Mr. JAMES HOPE: I do not think the latter part has been read twice. That was only in November last, and I would ask the Postmaster-General whether, as the leader of his party in another place has said, it was the essence of the proposal he should not give some better reason than hitherto why the essence of the proposal should be dropped. If the essence of the proposal is dropped, surely the rest of it has not the same authority. If the electors had the whole Parliament Bill in their minds, they would be voting on the proposal for a conference which had been put before them in that speech in November.
  Mr. HERBERT SAMUEL: The Bill in its present form contains the essence of that proposal.
  Mr. JAMES HOPE: How you can get a non-statutory essence into the Bill without an Amendment of this kind the Postmaster-General has not explained. The very difficulty must arise when the Standing Orders are drafted. The right hon. Gentleman has merely put off the difficulty which he says the House would be confronted with if they attempted to put
  1696
  in this Amendment. Whenever a Joint Committee is to be appointed the composition of it may give rise to difficulty. The Committee of Selection has to consider most delicate questions in the appointment of the ordinary committees for this House. Surely if that can be done in this House, it can be done in the case of a conference like that proposed. It is not necessary to put in the schedule of the Bill exactly how the Committee representing this House and the House of Lords is to be constituted, but in the ordinary course of business it would be constituted on the same principle as other committees. There ought to be no greater difficulty experienced in constituting the proposed Joint Committee than that which has to be faced under our present procedure. It is probably better that this House should frankly and distinctly say that it does appeal to this conference than that Ministers should suggest that they have it in view as part of the mechanism in future. Assuming that the Bill passes into law the intentions of the Government may change, or there may be others in their place who will not be in the least bound by what the Postmaster-General has said any more than the right hon. Gentleman himself is bound by what Lord Crewe said in November last.
  Lot us trust to the working out of the mechanism in the same way as this House has succeeded in discharging the duties that have been put upon it. The right hon. Gentleman referred to the distinction between formal and informal conferences. It is not necessary to have such a conference as he alluded to in relation to the Education Bill. The members of that conference who represented the Government were not nominated by this House. The conference was merely a meeting of influential politicians arranged by themselves, and it had no constitutional sanction whatever. Surely it would be possible for each House to nominate their ten men without binding them to definite procedure, or giving them definite instructions, or insisting that their proceedings should be private. I think we all know from experience the difference between the kind of formal transactions, where we have to take sides and range ourselves on party lines, and the transactions which can be carried through when we are allowed to meet without any of these trammels. I think there is something in the arrangement of this House when we sit opposite to each other which creates an unatural feeling of hostility. If you could get ten

  1697
  men constitutionally appointed by each House round a table, you would find that the results which would arise would be very different from those which would arise if you tried to solve the same problems by the ordinary methods of parliamentary procedure. I cannot see what possible harm would ensue from the Government accepting this Amendment.
  They are pledgd to it in essence, and if that is so, why not adopt in a statutory form and let the details work themselves out, as they undoubtedly would do?
  Question put, "That the word 'in' stand part of the Clause."
  The Committee divided: Ayes, 243; Noes, 114.

  Division No. 181.]

  AYES.

  [9.15 p.m.

  Abraham, William (Dublin Harbour)

  Esmonde, Sir Thomas (Wexford, N.)

  Markham, Arthur Basil

  Abraham, Rt. Hon. William (Rhondda)

  Essex, Richard Walter

  Marks, G. Croydon

  Acland, Francis Dyke

  Falconer, J.

  Martin, Joseph

  Adamson, William

  Fenwick, Charles

  Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.)

  Addison, Dr. C.

  Ffrench, Peter

  Meehan, Patrick A. (Queen's Co.)

  Adkins, W. Ryland D.

  Flavin, Michael Joseph

  Menzies, Sir Walter

  Agnew, Sir George William

  France, G. A.

  Millar, James Duncan

  Alden, Percy

  Gelder, Sir W. A.

  Molloy, M.

  Allen, Arthur Acland (Dumbartonshire)

  Gill, A. H.

  Molteno, Percy Alport

  Allen, Charles Peter (Stroud)

  Glanville, H. J.

  Montagu, Hon. E. S.

  Baker, H. T. (Accrington)

  Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford

  Morrell, Philip

  Balfour, Sir Robert (Lanark)

  Goldstone, Frank

  Muldoon, John

  Barnes, G. N.

  Greig, Colonel J. W.

  Munro, R.

  Barran, Sir J. N. (Hawick)

  Gwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway)

  Nannetti, Joseph P.

  Barry, Redmond John (Tyrone N.)

  Hackett, J.

  Needham, Christopher T.

  Barton, William

  Hall, Frederick (Normanton)

  Neilson, Francis

  Beale, W. P.

  Hancock, J. G.

  Nicholson, Charles N. (Doncaster)

  Beauchamp, Edward

  Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose)

  Nolan, Joseph

  Beck, Arthur Cecil

  Hardie, J. Keir (Merthyr Tydvil)

  Norman, Sir Henry

  Benn, W. W. (T. H'mts., St. George)

  Harmsworth, R. L.

  Norton, Capt. Cecil W.

  Bentham, G. J.

  Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale)

  O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

  Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine

  Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N. E.)

  O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)

  Black, Arthur W

  Harwood, George

  O'Connor, T P. (Liverpool)

  Boland, John Pius

  Haslam, James (Derbyshire)

  O'Doherty, Philip

  Booth, Frederick Handel

  Haworth, Arthur A.

  O'Donnell, Thomas

  Bowerman, C. W.

  Hayden, John Patrick

  Ogden, Fred

  Boyle, D. (Mayo, N.)

  Hayward, Evan

  O'Kelly, Edward P. (Wicklow, W.)

  Brace, William

  Helme, Norval Watson

  O'Kelly, James (Roscommon N.)

  Brady, P. J.

  Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

  O'Malley, William

  Brigg, Sir John

  Henderson, J. M'D. (Aberdeen, W.)

  O'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, S.)

  Brocklehurst, W. B.

  Hinds, John

  O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

  Brunner, J. F. L.

  Hodge, John

  O'Shee, James John

  Bryce, J. Annan

  Holt, Richard Durning

  O'Sullivan, Timothy

  Burke, E. Haviland-

  Howard, Hon. Geoffrey

  Parker, James (Halifax)

  Burns, Rt. Hon. John

  Hughes, S. L.

  Pearce, Robert (Staffs., Leek)

  Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas

  Hunter, W. (Govan)

  Pearce, William (Limehouse)

  Byles, William Pollard

  Isaacs, Sir Rufus Daniel

  Pease, Rt. Hon. J. A. (Rotherham)

  Cawley, Sr Frederick (Prestwich)

  John, Edward Thomas

  Phillips, John (Longford, S.)

  Cawley, Harold T. (Heywood)

  Johnson, W.

  Pickersgill, Edward Hare

  Chapple, Dr. William Allen

  Jones, Sir D. Brynmor (Swansea)

  Pointer, Joseph

  Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston S.

  Jones, Edgar R. (Methyr Tydvil)

  Pollard, Sir George H.

  Clancy, John Joseph

  Jones, Leif Stratten (Notts, Rushcliffe)

  Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H.

  Clough, William

  Jones, William (Carnarvonshire)

  Power, Patrick Joseph

  Clynes, J. P.

  Jowett, F. W.

  Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central)

  Collins, G. P. (Greenock)

  Joyce, Michael

  Priestley, Sir W. E. B. (Bradford, E. J

  Compton-Rickett, Rt. Hon. Sir J.

  Keating, M.

  Pringle, William M. R.

  Condon, Thomas Joseph

  Kellaway, Frederick George

  Radford, George Heynes

  Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.

  Kelly, Edward

  Raffan, Peter Wilson

  Cotton, William Francis

  Kennedy, Vincent Paul

  Rainy, A. Rolland

  Cowan, W. H.

  Kilbride, Denis

  Rea, Rt. Hon. Russell (South Shields)

  Crawthay-Williams, Eliot

  King, J. (Somerset, N.)

  Reddy, M.

  Crooks, William

  Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade)

  Redmond, John E. (Waterford)

  Crumley, Patrick

  Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, West)

  Redmond, William (Clare, E.)

  Cullinan, J.

  Lawson, Sir W. (Cumb'rid., Cockerm'th)

  Richards, Thomas

  Dalziel, Sir James H. (Kirkcaldy)

  Levy, Sir Maurice

  Richardson, Thomas (Whitehaven)

  Davies, E. William (Eifion)

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)

  Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.)

  Logan, John William

  Roberts, G. H. (Norwich)

  Dawes, J. A.

  Low, Sir F. (Norwich)

  Roberts, Sir J. H. (Denbighs)

  Delany, William

  Lundon, T.

  Robertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradford)

  Denman, Hon. Richard Douglas

  Lynch, A. A.

  Robinson, Sidney

  Dillon, John

  Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester)

  Roche, Augustine (Louth)

  Doris, W.

  Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk Burghs)

  Roche, John (Galway, E.)

  Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness)

  MacNeill, John Gordon Swift

  Roe, Sir Thomas

  Duncan, J. Hastings (York, Otley)

  MacVeagh, Jeremiah

  Rowntree, Arnold

  Edwards, Allen C. (Glamorgan, E.)

  M'Callum, John M.

  Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland)

  Edwards, Enoch (Hanley)

  M'Curdy, C. A.

  Samuel, J. (Stockton)

  Elibank, Rt. Hon. Master of

  M'Laren, H. D. (Leices.)

  Scanlan, Thomas

  Elverston, H.

  M'Laren, Walter S. B. (Ches., Crewe)

  Seely, Col. Right Hon. J. E. B.

  Esmonde, Dr. John (Tipperary, N.)

  M'Micking, Major Gilbert

  Sheehy, David

  Sherwell, Arthur James

  Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent)

  Williams, P. (Middlesbrough)

  Simon, Sir John Allsebrook

  Ward W. Dudley (Southampton)

  Wilson, Hon. G. G. (Hull, W.)

  Smith, Albert (Lancs., Clitheroe)

  Wardle, George J.

  Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R.)

  Smith, H. B. L. (Northampton)

  Warner, Sir Thomas Courtenay

  Wilson, John Durham, Mid)

  Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.)

  Watt, Henry A.

  Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)

  Snowden, P.

  White, Sir Luke (York, E. R.)

  Winfrey, Richard

  Stanley, Albert (Staffs, N. W.)

  White, Patrick (Meath, North)

  Wood, T. McKinnon (Glasgow)

  Strauss, Edward A. (Southwark, West)

  Whitehouse, John Howard

  Young, Samuel (Cavan E.)

  Sutton, John E.

  Whittaker, Rt. Hon. Sir Thomas P.

  Young, W. (Perthshire, E.)

  Taylor, John W. (Durham)

  Whyte, A. F. (Perth)

  Yoxall, Sir James Henry

  Thomas, J. H. (Derby)

  Wiles, Thomas

  Ure, Rt. Hon. Alexander

  Wilkie, Alexander

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr. Illingworth and Mr. Gulland.

  Walsh, Stephen (Lancs., Ince)

  Williams, J. (Glamorgan)

  NOES.

  Aitken, William Max

  Fell, Arthur

  Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William

  Anson, Sir William Reynell

  Fletcher, John Samuel (Hampstead)

  Parkes, Ebenezer

  Ashley, W. W.

  Forster, Henry William

  Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington)

  Astor, Waldorf

  Foster, Philip Staveley

  Peel, Capt. R. F. (Woodbridge)

  Bagot, Lieut.-Colonel J.

  Gastrell Major W. H.

  Perkins, Walter F.

  Baird, J. L.

  Gibbs, G. A.

  Pole-Carew, Sir R.

  Baldwin, Stanley

  Gilmour, Captain J.

  Pollock, Ernest Murray

  Banbury, Sir Frederick George

  Goldsmith, Frank

  Pryce-Jones, Col. E.

  Baring, Captain Hon. G.

  Goulding, Edward Alfred

  Ratcliff, R. F.

  Barlow, Montague (Salford, South)

  Greene, W. R.

  Rice, Hon. Walter F.

  Barnston, H

  Gretton, John

  Rutherford, Watson (L'pool, W. Derby)

  Barrie, H. T (Londonderry, N.)

  Guinness, Hon. Walter E.

  Salter, Arthur Clavell

  Bathurst, Charles (Wilts., Wilton)

  Haddock, George Bahr

  Sanders, Robert A.

  Beach, Hon. Michael Hugh Hicks

  Hardy, Laurence (Kent, Ashford)

  Sanderson, Lancelot

  Benn, Arthur Shirley (Plymouth)

  Harris, Henry Percy

  Sandys, G. J. (Somerset, Wells)

  Bennett-Goldney, Francis

  Helmsley, Viscount

  Smith, F. E. (Liverpool, Walton)

  Bird, A.

  Hill, Sir Clement L.

  Smith, Harold (Warrington)

  Boscawen, Col. Sackville T. Griffith.

  Hills, J. W.

  Spear, John Ward

  Boyle, W. Lewis (Norfolk, Mid.)

  Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield)

  Stanier, Beville

  Bull, Sir William James

  Horner, A. L.

  Stanley, Hon. G. F. (Preston)

  Carlile, E. Hildred

  Houston, Robert Paterson

  Stewart, Gershom

  Cassel, Felix

  Jardine, E. (Somerset, E.)

  Strauss, Arthur (Paddington, North)

  Castlereagh, Viscount

  Kebty-Fletcher, J. R.

  Swift, Rigby

  Cautley, H. S.

  King, Sir Henry Seymour (Hull)

  Sykes, Alan John

  Cave, George

  Larmor, Sir J.

  Talbot, Lord E.

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Law, Andrew Bonar (Bootle, Lancs.)

  Terrell, G. (Wilts, N. W.)

  Cecil, Lord Hugh (Oxford University)

  Lee, Arthur H.

  Thomson, W. Mitchell- (Down, North)

  Chaloner, Colonel R. G. W.

  Long, Rt. Hon. Walter

  Tobin, Alfred Aspinall

  Cooper, Richard Ashmole

  Lowe, Sir F. W. (Birm., Edgbaston)

  Valentia, Viscount

  Courthope, George Loyd

  Lowther, Claude (Cumberland, Eskdale)

  Walker, Col. William Hall

  Craig, Charles Curtis (Antrim, S.)

  Macmaster, Donald

  Ward, Arnold S. (Herts, Watford)

  Craig, Captain James (Down, E.)

  M'Mordie, Robert James

  Wheler, Granville C. H.

  Crichton-Stuart, Lord Ninian

  Magnus, Sir Philip

  White, Major G D. (Lancs., Southport)

  Croft, H. P.

  Meysey-Thompson, E. C.

  Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.)

  Dalrymple, Viscount

  Mildmay, Francis Bingham

  Willoughby, Major Hon. Claud

  Dickson, Rt. Hon. C. Scott

  Neville, Reginald J. N.

  Worthington-Evans, L.

  Du Cros, Arthur Philip

  Newton, Harry Kottingham

  Duke, Henry Edward

  Nield, Herbert

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr. Hume-Williams and Mr. Gardner.

  Eyres-Monsell, B. M.

  Orde-Powlett, Hon. W. G. A.

  Sir HENRY DALZIEL: I beg to move, in Sub-section (1), to leave out the word "three" ["three successive Sessions"], and to insert instead thereof the word "two."
  I think that this is the first Radical Amendment of substance that has been moved to the Government Bill. I do not think that the Government have any cause to complain that Members on this side of the House have occupied too much time on these Debates or have moved too many Amendments, and when we entertain important views with regard to some of the provisions of the Bill I make no apology for stating our views to the Committee. I am encouraged to do so by the fact that the Government themselves have stated that they are not entirely wedded to the framework of the Bill. They
  1700
  have stated at an earlier period of the Debates that they would entertain any Amendments which were consistent with their general object, and which did not disturb the general character of the measure. The Amendment which I have the honour to move is one which, I think, ought to commend itself, at all events, to all democrats in the House of Commons, and if we had a full vote of the supporters of the Government in this House as to whether the Bill should specify two Sessions or three the proposal to have two Sessions would be carried by a very large majority. As the Bill will operate it cannot, I think, be claimed that the public and the House of Commons would not have their full opportunity of considering the main principles of any measure that would be passed under the operation of the Parliament

  1701
  Bill. The Parliament Bill, in the main, will apply to the great and important measure of any Government. Therefore, before any Government would ask a new House of Commons to dispose of the first year of its existence by discussing any great and important measure they would first of all have been persuaded that the country was with them in the proposal they put forward. We have in the first place, then, full and adequate discussion in the country of any measure that would come under the operation of the Parliament Bill. We have the Government convinced that the public is behind them outside, and they are convinced that they have a majority in the House when they bring forward any Bill. There are the First Beading, the Second Beading, the Committee, and the Third Reading stages, and who will say that the public during that process would not have a full knowledge of the provisions contained in a particular Bill? The Bill goes to the House of Lords, and it is rejected. For all practical purposes it is dormant until the second year. Then the Bill is passed again by the Government of that time, and the country have full opportunity during the two years to make their opposition felt if they are opposed to any particular measure. I would point out here that, even if my Amendment were accepted, there would be a delay of two years before the Bill became law. With the full discussion during the two years which this Bill has been before the country, and in the House of Commons, and in view of the fact that the House of Commons, for the second time, has declared its allegiance to the original measure, I ask how can any democrat say that the Bill does not then represent the will of the House of Commons and the will of the people.
  I want to ask the Government what is the virtue between three years and two years in regard to the Parliament Bill. I am sure the intention of the Government is that any measure which the House of Commons was elected to support should be passed in the lifetime of that particular House of Commons. I think if we give two years it is quite enough to conciliate the moderate supporters of the Government either in this House or outside. The whole question turns upon whether the Government trust the representatives of the people as sent here by the country to make out laws. I say that if the House of Commons deliberately devote the greater portion of a Session to passing a measure
  1702
  through its various stages, and subsequently in a second Session declares its unfaltering allegiance to the principle of that measure, I say that ought to satisfy any Democrat, or any Radical Government. So far as the proposal of three years is concerned, it simply means placing a premium upon agitation in the country. If there is a Bill about which there is any great divergence of opinion under this Amendment, the opponents of that measure would, of course, have every opportunity in the country to hold mass meetings and to do everything they could to influence public opinion. The work of the House of Commons, duly elected, ought not to be interrupted by practically a sequel to a General Election. The sooner agitation, after the House of Commons has been duly elected, is brought to an end the better it will be for popular Government and for the passage of progressive legislation. I appeal to the Government to tell us why the three years should be included. I should have thought two years sufficient. I am not one who believes in the policy of checks so far as this House of Commons is concerned. I believe whole heartedly in the decision of the people and in their judgment, and I see no reason for any checks whatever on any decision which the House of Commons might come to. But we are willing, in order to conciliate a certain class of opinion, that there should be a delay of two years, which is surely sufficient. In order to give an opportunity to the Government to state their reasons, I beg formally to move the Amendment which stands in my name.
  The SECRETARY of STATE for the HOME DEPARTMENT (Mr. Churchill): No one will complain that my hon. Friend the Member for Kirkcaldy Burghs (Sir H. Dalziel) should have moved the Amendment, which was placed on the Paper by an hon. Gentleman on this side of the House, and even if I were moved to complain I doubt whether I should have the courage to do so after the severe bludgeoning he would administer to any one who ventured to run counter in any way to his wishes or desires. But although the Government do not venture for one moment to deprecate in any controversial spirit the course that he has taken, we are unable to meet him. We cannot assent to reduce the period to two years, or the number of times a measure must be passed through the House from three years to two years. We have never disguised from ourselves or from the Committee the fact that

  1703
  the powers which the House of Lords will possess when this Bill is passed into law are very great and substantial powers, and that if they were vexatiously used, that is to say in that partisan spirit which has characterised the action of that House in recent times, they would undoubtedly impose severe disabilities and disadvantages against the present Government, and probably any democratic Government, from which the Governments which are returned by Conservative majorities would be wholly exempt. We have never disguised that. We recognise that we are leaving them real, serious, and practical safeguards, and, whatever they may say in the course of the Debate, I think hon. Gentlemen opposite realise that these are important safeguards. We have not altered our claim for more than four years during which this question has been before the country. We have not altered our demand in any respect.
  The main outlines of the original proposals of Sir Henry Campbell-Bannerman have been adhered to throughout the long course of these discussions. During the four years that have passed, we have had periods when it has seemed that our fortunes were not good, yet we have not reduced our demand; and there have been times when our fortunes have been improved, and when we had no doubt that we had adequately support for it, and we did not increase our demand. We are not prepared on this occasion to go beyond what we have deliberately set out as being the real and proper means of dealing with legislation in future. On the other side of the House the hon. Member for Dudley (Colonel Griffith-Boscawen) is waiting to propose that the Bill should be four times passed through the House instead of twice, as the hon. Member for Kirkcaldy suggests. Between the North and the South Pole the Government occupy the temperate zone. and we shall continue to occupy it—[HON. MEMBERS: "The Equator"]—let me take it between the Equator and the North Pole—we shall continue to occupy that agreeable and temperate line, and I hope the Committee will confirm our residence there.
  Colonel GRIFFITH-BOSCAWEN: Half way between the Equator and the Pole is, I believe, a very hot place. I congratulate the hon. Member for Kirkcaldy that the Radical party has been at last articulate, and that they have moved an Amendment. That is an Amendment which they say the
  1704
  Government as democrats ought to accept, and the hon. Member also said that if an honest vote or a straight vote was taken that he was sure the great majority on this side would vote for leaving out three and putting in two as the number of times a Bill should be passed through this House. Let us have that straight vote. After all, it is not a bad argument for an Amendment I moved earlier in the proceedings, and which was supported by the hon. Member for Oxford University (Lord Hugh Cecil) for a vote by ballot. Perhaps we may get a straight vote now, and the word "three" omitted in order that some other word may be inserted.
  Sir H. DALZIEL: What I mean is a free vote. That means that the Government would not put their Whips on.
  Colonel GRIFFITH-BOSCAWEN: A free vote is exactly what we have been contending for all along, and we hold one great argument against this Bill is that in an assembly where you do not get a free vote, as the hon. Member himself admits, Bills go through without any check from another place. We want to see that free vote very much. I intend to support the hon. Member in his proposition to omit the word "three," but not in his proposition to insert the word "two." I am very anxious that we should get this free vote independent of the malignant influence of the Government Whips. The proposition I want to make is to omit the word "three" in order to insert the word "four." I quite agree that the passing of a Bill three times is not very useful if we want really to have any sort of check upon the proceedings of this House we ought to have at least four times. I think that is following strictly on what the Home Secretary said, and in which I entirely agree with him. He said "If this Bill passes we ought to leave great and substantial powers to the House of Lords, and we ought to have read and serious safeguards." The only really serious safeguard is that between the passing of a Bill in this House and its final passing into law there should be a General Election. There is far more likely to be a General Election if the Bill has to pass four times instead of three. After all, what are we doing? The House knows quite well we are setting up Single-Chamber Government. If the Government had agreed to any of the Amendments from this side for example, that providing a Joint Session, or creating the procedure of Referendum, or if they had agreed that the last time a Bill had to pass the House

  1705
  before being submitted up to the Crown that a General Election should intervene, then there would be no necessity for the Amendment which I am pressing. But the Government have absolutely refused to accept any of those Amendments, and the only chance we have is to extend the time as long as we can. Therefore, I want to extend the time and give the country a fair chance of judging these matters. I want, if possible, to give the opportunity of a General Election intervening, and for those reasons I shall certainly support the hon. Member if he goes to a Division on the question put from the Chair that the word "three" be omitted, and then I hope he will support me in inserting the word "four."
  Mr. WATT: I am surprised that the Government have not seen their way to accept the Amendment. The object of this Bill is to bring about fair play between the two parties in the State. When the electors choose a Conservative Government to rule over them the programme or measures of that party are freely passed into law and go on the Statute Book, but when the elector chooses a Radical Government, or perhaps I should say a moderate Liberal Government, instead of the measures of that party being placed on the Statute Book the other Chamber has in the past had illimitable power for mutilating, destroying, and throwing out the measures of that party. The object of this Bill is to bring about fair play between the two, and if Liberal legislation is in the future to be delayed for two years, and if Liberal legislation has to pass through this House three times while Conservative measures are instanter put on the Statute Book, then fair play does not exist. The Amendment of my hon. Friend, although not perfect, because equality will not even then exist, places matters nearer equality than in the measure which is now before us. I therefore think the Government would have been wiser, and would have taken a line of action that would have served better for bringing about that fair play they are aiming at if they had accepted the Amendment of my hon. Friend. I venture to hope, at any rate, that they will reconsider their decision and make it two Sessions instead of three.
  Mr. LANE-FOX: The hon. Gentleman who has just spoken has pursued the almost universal practice of hon. Gentlemen who have spoken from the other side in entirely discrediting the oft-repeated assertion of the Government that the
  1706
  Preamble is intended. We give them credit for that assertion, and wish to argue on the basis of having a Second Chamber at what the Prime Minister calls some remote contingency. On that ground we entirely deny, if the Preamble is carried out, that this constant series of injustice will continue, as the hon. Member has suggested. I do think that hon. Gentlemen on the other side might go as far as we do and give credit to the Government for their repeated assertion as to the Preamble. Everybody must have admired the parade of virtue presented to the Committee by the Home Secretary a short time ago. The right hon. Gentleman explained to an admiring House the absolute consistency of the Government during all these years. In times of adversity they never flinched; in times of prosperity they were never carried away by the feeling that the country was with them and that they had greater strength than on previous occasions. They are so over weighted by their feelings of intense virtue and respectability that they will not even listen to any suggestions for the possible improvement of their Bill. As to the Amendment, if I thought for an instant that the hon. Member for Kirkcaldy was going to a Division, I should be inclined to treat him more seriously, but until I see him in the Lobby with me I shall refuse to believe in the sincerity of the motives with which this Amendment has been moved. The hon. Member declared that the Bill as it stands is setting a premium on agitation, that it will mean for three years there will be intense agitation against Radical measures in the country, while at the same time he stated that he believed in the judgment of the people.
  If the judgment of the people is to be believed in for two years, why is it not to be trusted for three years? It is giving far more credit to the powers of persuasion of hon. Members on this side than we are prepared to take to ourselves to suppose that the extra year will have such an effect as the hon. Member seems to fear. We believe in the judgment of the people, and we do not care if the agitation goes on for two years or for three. What we do want, and what we shall insist upon—if we do not get it in this Parliament we shall get it some time—is that what the people really want that they shall have. We have heard an appeal for a free vote. We should be very glad to see a free vote, but I do not believe we are going to have it. We shall believe in the sincerity of hon. Members in making that demand if they

  1707
  join with us in voting for the deletion of the word "three," whatever step they may take afterwards. This is the first occasion in the history of this Bill in Committee on which they have shown sufficient independence to move an Amendment, and I hope they will show the strength of their convictions by going into the Lobby in support of it. In any case, I congratulate the hon. Member on having gone so far as to stand up and move an Amendment, even though he does not go into the Lobby in support of it.
  Mr. COWAN: We on this side want to get as much as we can out of the Parliament Bill, and I do not think we shall do that if we require measures to pass three times when, if this Amendment were accepted, they could be passed twice and then be sent forward for the Royal Assent. We are only too glad to assist the Nationalist party in obtaining a measure of Home Rule next year; at the same time we do not see why the whole of that Session should be occupied, as it probably will be, by the passing of that vast and important measure. I want to see other measures, which seem to me, as I have not the good fortune to be an Irishman, to be of equal importance, passed into law. I want to see the desperate situation created in the rural districts of Scotland by the present iniquitous land laws dealt with, and to some extent redressed. I cannot forget that recent census returns, so far as we have received them, prove that the rural districts of Scotland are being rapidly depopulated, and I can see no remedy for that except in the reform of the land laws.
  I have no hope of that reform within any measurable distance of time unless in the next Session of Parliament we pass a measure to redress these wrongs, which measure by being passed a first and second time may become the law of the land, in spite of the opposition of the other House, which has already twice rejected such a measure. I desire to see the Amendment accepted because it would enable such measures as the Scottish Small Landholders Bill, the Welsh Disestablishment Bill, and Bills for the establishment of Home Rule in Scotland, no less than in Ireland, passed in this present Parliament. We are not ashamed to say that we want to get as much as we can out of this Bill and out of the present Parliament, and for that reason I should like the Government to accept this extremely
  1708
  moderate proposal. I am in favour of the establishment of a strong elective Upper House, but we are agreed on both sides that that reform cannot be brought into immediate operation. [Several HON. MEMBERS: "Why?"] Hon. Members opposite are as clearly convinced of that as any Member on this side. They know that it is impossible to set up a reformed elective House of Lords immediately, however ardently they may desire to do it. [Several HON. MEMBERS: "Why?"] We are therefore entitled to get all we can out of the Parliament Bill, and because we can get more by substituting two years for three, I cordially support the Amendment.
  Mr. G. J. SANDYS: We are exceedingly grateful that for some reason or other the muzzling order seems to have been temporarily relaxed on the other side of the House. We sincerely hope that those who have broken through what has been hitherto the golden rule of silence are not in consequence running any serious risk of being eliminated from the list of prospective peers. The hon. Member (Mr. Cowan) has given us credit for knowledge which we really do not possess. In spite of the fact that many of us have gone carefully into the matter, we do not know why it is impossible to set up the new Second Chamber about which we have heard so much, but the creation of which, as far as we can ascertain. is postponed to the dim and indefinite future. With regard to the speech which was made by the hon. Gentleman who moved this Amendment, I cannot help thinking that it was full of contradictions. He first of all stated that his reason for suggesting that the substitution of "two" for "three" should be made was because in his opinion the time would be ample to give the country the full opportunity of coming to any decision. Then he went on to say that in the event of the Bill being introduced which presented some unpopular features to a certain portion of the electorate he had no doubt that a serious agitation would take place throughout the country and that mass meetings would be held in all directions. Then he went on to make what I consider rather an extraordinary statement that in his opinion the sooner these agitations were brought to an end the better it would be. For an hon. Gentleman who poses as a supporter of the principles of democracy and for the tree and full expression of public opinion, it seems to me to have been an extraordinary

  1709
  remark to make. It shows, I think, very clearly the very curious attitude which Members on the other side of the House take up. When that expression of public and popular opinion is made in favour of Liberal principles they very strongly urge in every case that it should be fully attended to and that the greatest possible weight should be attached to it. But when popular agitation is brought forward in the other direction and acts against those principles which hon. Gentlemen opposite are in favour of, they say that the sooner this undesirable agitation is brought to an end the better for everybody concerned. The fact is that, as the hon. Gentleman himself very frankly said, what he really desires is that there should be no checks whatever. He believes that the delay which is interposed by the provisions of this Bill, and which he would make shorter still, has merely been put in in order to conciliate a certain section of public opinion which is not so far advanced as some of the Members of His Majesty's Government. I have no doubt at some future date he would like that check to be swept away altogether. The right hon. Gentleman, the Home Secretary, in the course of his remarks, stated that if the powers of the House of Lords were—at, least, he threatened that if the powers of the House of Lords were—vexatiously used, that different means might be adopted in order to bring them to a more reasonable frame of mind. While he recognised, or stated—that which we do not recognise in the least—that he was leaving real safeguards against hasty legislation, he certainly made that remark in a tone of complete regret. In fact I think his remark this evening bore out that previous speech he made on another occasion in the House in which he openly declared himself to be in favour of a Single-Chamber system of Government. Certainly I shall be prepared to follow the hon. Gentleman who proposed this Amendment into the Lobby, and I sincerely hope that he will press his Amendment to a Division.
  Mr. HOLT: I hope I am not an unduly servile supporter of the Government. May I be permitted to say in a word or two on this occasion why I support their proposal. Whatever intrinsic merits there may be in two or three years we must not forget that in commending this Bill to our Constituents most of us—certainly I did—expressly emphasised the fact that there
  1710
  was these three opportunities for discussion in both Houses of Parliament. We commended the Bill to our Constituents on that ground, and I do submit to my hon. Friends below the Gangway that to depart from that, and to ask their friends to depart from that, would be asking them to do something—whether it be good or bad in itself—which was not perhaps absolutely straightforward. To my mind, I cannot possibly vote for this proposal, because I do not think I would be dealing straightforwardly with my Constituents if I did.
  10.0 P.M.
  Lord HUGH CECIL: We have listened to a very instructive discussion. I have listened with great respect to the speeches of hon. Members on the other side and with keen regret that they should have exercised so much self-restraint of late, because of the instruction and enlightenment that their speeches might have afforded us. The hon. Gentleman the Member for Kirkcaldy began his interesting speech by asking for a free vote. I am very glad he made that request. I hope that freedom may even now be accorded in this House, but I confess that I think there is something a little hypocritical in hon. Members opposite going about the country and pretending that this House is a free deliberative assembly, and is to be entrusted absolutely with power over legislation and finance, when we all know that this House does not freely vote, but votes under duress and—if I may be pardoned for saying so—under intimidation, in that Members opposite dare not vote against their party on an issue of this kind. To sum up the whole doctrine that certain expression cuts at the very root of the whole doctrine upon which this Bill is founded. If this House is not free it is not to be trusted with these functions. If it is not free it matters very little whether a matter be discussed once, twice, or three times, for the discussion that arises is reduced to nonsense. If that be so, it. matters little, and, personally, I do not care whether it be four years or two, for discussion in this House on the repeated question would be formal and unreal. What will be the result of the hindrances or precautions to legislation? The majority for the time being are subject to all sorts of diseases and difficulties. We suspect that the Government are already divided from their supporters on two issues: the issue of the reform of the House of Lords and the issue of the Navy.

  1711
  It is at least possible that these differences of opinion before two years are up will bring the Government to disaster. It is an extraordinary and ridiculous way of legislating, and it is a burlesque safeguard to say that a Second Chamber will be able to arrest legislation until some other question turns the Government out. One can hardly believe that sane human beings can support machinery so utterly unworthy of a great country—so utterly unworthy of reasonable human beings. But still, after a fashion and after a sort is it a safeguard? It has the advantage that there will be a period of time interposed, not because that there is any real consideration in the matter, not because the House of Commons is a free Assembly—because notoriously it is not—but because a chapter of accidents, something else may intervene, which may stop the Government from getting their way. Hon. Gentlemen opposite, in their interesting and instructive speeches, said quite openly: "Moreover, we want to get as much as possible out of the Parliament Bill." That is the spirit in which you undertake to revise your ancient Constitution. It is shady and speculative; to say that you will get what profit you can. That is what you call constitutional reform! Was there anything more cynical than the avowal of the hon. Member who said that, and said it in a tone which showed that he did not think it was at all surprising or out of the way. You intend to rig the Constitution to get your desires.
  If the majority are animaed by a purpose of that kind this discussion is a useless discussion. The proceedings of me House of Commons on this Bill are a shame in themselves, and the sooner the Government closure this Bill through without discussion the more nearly will they be brought to shame, and the further they will be from all the true principles of democracy and self-government. The question remains how are we to vote in this Division? I should certainly myself vote for eliminating the word in the Bill because I think the word "four" would be better. [An HON. MEMBER: "I thought you would."] I hope the hon. Member will have the kindness to explain what he means.
  Mr. BYLES: What is the Amendment? The Amendment is to leave out the word "three," in order to insert the word "two."
  Lord HUGH CECIL: Yes, but if the word "three" stands we cannot substitute "four." that is common sense. Is the hon. Member so little versed in the forms of the House as not to know that no other course can be taken? I think, therefore, the only thing we have to do is to make clear for what it is we are contending. We intend to interpose as much to-day as possible between the passage of a Bill in this House the first time and its ultimate passage into law. It is a very whimsical and absurd safeguard, but it will be a sort of a safeguard. I believe this Bill will not pass in its present form. I am quite sure if it does pass it will not last beyond the present Parliament. We have got to go through if the Bill passes two or three years while this Parliament lives. If we could extend the period to four Sessions the dangerous time would be passed and we should then have an opportunity, as we will have, of settling this question by a Unionist majority on sound lines.
  Sir HENRY DALZIEL: I desire to say one or two words with regard to the speech of the right hon. Gentleman on behalf of the Government. I was disappointed he did not accept the Amendment which I formally moved. I cannot say that I was greatly surprised in view of the attitude which the Government have, rightly or wrongly, taken up with regard to this proposal in their measure. At the same time I have no regret whatever for having moved the Amendment and no apology to offer for having brought it under the consideration of the House. My view is that the argument, even from the Government point of view, is in favour of two Sessions instead of three. I venture to say that some of us may live long enough to come to the opinion that two Sessions would be quite enough and that three are unnecessary. With regard to two years we could always have one Session, a spring Session, and another autumn Session in one year, which would still be three Session within the meaning of the Bill, coming within two years. I confess I would rather have two Sessions than three, but any Radical Government which means business can always within the Clause as it stands get their Bill through within two years. I am very much obliged for the compliments of hon. Gentlemen opposite. The Member for Dudley was particularly enthusiastic, and the Noble Lord who has just sat down was

  1713
  equally entertaining in his support of my proposal. The Noble Lord said some, thing about the word "hypocrisy" in the course of his speech. I do not think it necessary at this stage to analyse the application of that word too closely Hon. Gentlemen opposite say they are in favour of four Sessions as against two, and the Government position is for three, but they are going to vote for two. [HON. MEMBERS: "No; but against three."] The division on the Amendment I moved would be a division as between three and two. [Hon. MEMBERS: "NO."] I am perfectly well aware of the Parliamentary way in which the question will be put, but in effect it will be a division as between three Sessions and two Sessions. [HON. MEMBERS: "No, no."] Our intention in proposing "two" is that two should take the place of three, and now hon. Gentlemen opposite who desire four are going to vote for two. When I was at school three was nearer four than two.
  We fully understand the position of hon. Gentlemen opposite. They are out to destroy this Bill in any company on any Amendment proposed by anyone. That is not the object either of myself or any of my friends. When hon. Gentlemen speak about a free vote on an Amendment, what do they mean? When I speak of a free vote I mean that the Government should not put on their Whips. The Parliamentary expression is well known, and we often hear it. I mean by a free vote that the question should not be made a Government question. On a measure of this kind if the Government take up a certain position they are responsible for the measure, and it is obviously their duty to do all they can to carry the measure in the way in which it is framed, and, therefore, I do not blame them for putting on their Whips and doing their best to carry the Clause as it stands. The whole situation is this. Do we, or do we not, desire the Parliament Bill as it stands rather than defeat the Government and reject the Bill altogether? That is really the proposition. I can assure the Noble Lord we are not going to adopt the suggestion he made and join him in the Division Lobby. The object of hon. Gentlemen opposite is entirely destructive; ours is destructive and also creative. We want to destroy "three" and insert "two." They are prepared to adopt any expedient and vote for anything, even Single-Chamber Government, if they can defeat the Ministry. We claim the right,
  1714
  and we shall exercise the right at all times, to move any Amendment to any measure which the Government may bring forward, but we shall exercise our discretion as to the way we play the game; and I am convinced from the expression of disappointment on the faces of hon. Gentlemen opposite that we are right. I beg to ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.
  The CHAIRMAN: Is it your pleasure that the Amendment be withdrawn? [HON. MEMBERS: "No, no."]
  Mr. CROFT: The House must have been extremely impressed by the speech of the hon. Member for Kirkcaldy. I think he took to heart the words used by my hon. and gallant Friend, and remembered a further honour of his which is coming in a few weeks' time. I think after the display of courage we have seen this evening those sitting near the hon. Member must be extremely disappointed at seeing their gallant leader running away at the very moment when they thought he was at last going to put his words into action. I think this Debate is very interesting from the point of view of the speeches we have heard from hon. Members opposite. The hon. Member for Hexham (Mr. Holt) made a very loyal speech, but I think we ought to remember that his majority was very much reduced at the last election, and naturally he did not want to follow the political adventurers who wished to take him still further on the path of revolution. Another point we are grateful for is that it is perfectly clear now that if this Bill is passed into law, at the earliest opportunity the hon. Member for Kirkcaldy and his Friends are going to make this two Sessions instead of three Sessions. The only question I ask, if the hon. Member believes in that course is, Why was his Amendment not one year instead of two? Our position is that this is the only opportunity that we shall have of expressing our disapproval of three years, and it is not for hon. Members opposite to tell us whether we ought or ought not to vote for this Amendment. In our opinion three years is quite long enough for the Government to sneak through Home Rule, Land Nationalisation, Welsh Disestablishment, and their various other policies which the people do not want, and will not have if they are permitted to have any voice in the matter at all. The people will not allow those measures to become law by the backstairs method contained in the Parliament Bill. We have no fear whatever

  1715
  in voting for this Amendment. We consider that democracy is being silenced by this Bill, and the electors have been twice misled. For these reasons I shall have the greatest pleasure in supporting the hon. Gentleman's Amendment.
  Mr. CHURCHILLrose in his place, and claimed to move, "That the Question be now put."
  Question put, "That the Question be now put."
  The Committee divided: Ayes, 284; Noes, 180.

  Division No. 182.]

  AYES.

  [10.20 p.m.

  Abraham, William (Dublin Harbour)

  Elverston, Harold

  Levy, Sir Maurice

  Abraham, Rt. Hon. William (Rhondda)

  Esmonde, Dr. John (Tipperary, N.)

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Acland, Francis Dyke

  Esmonde, Sir Thomas (Wexford, N.)

  Logan, John William

  Adamson, William

  Essex, Richard Walter

  Lough, Rt. Hon. Thomas

  Adkins, W. Ryland D.

  Falconer, James

  Low, Sir Frederick (Norwich)

  Agnew, Sir George William

  Fenwick, Charles

  Lundon, Thomas

  Ainsworth, John Stirling

  Ferens, Thomas Robinson

  Lynch, Arthur Alfred

  Alden, Percy

  Ffrench, Peter

  Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester)

  Allen, A. A. (Dumbartonshire)

  Field, William

  Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk Burghs)

  Allen, Charles Peter (Stroud)

  Fiennes, Hon. Eustace Edward

  Maclean, Donald

  Asquith, Rt. Hon. Herbert Henry

  Fitzgibbon, John

  MacNeill, John Gordon Swift

  Baker, H. T. (Accrington)

  Flavin, Michael Joseph

  MacVeagh, Jeremiah

  Balfour, Sir Robert (Lanark)

  France, Gerald Ashburner

  M'Callum, John M.

  Barlow, Sir John Emmott (Somerset)

  Gelder, Sir W. H.

  M'Curdy, Charles Albert

  Barnes, G. N.

  Gill, A. H.

  M'Laren, H. D. (Leics., Bosworth)

  Barran, Sir J. N. (Hawick)

  Glanville, H. J.

  M'Laren, F. W. S. (Lincs., Spalding).

  Barran, Rowland Hirst (Leeds, N.)

  Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford

  M'Laren, Walter S. B. (Ches., Crewe).

  Barry, Redmond John (Tyrone, N.)

  Goldstone, Frank

  M'Micking, Major Gilbert

  Barton, William

  Greenwood, Granville G. (Peterborough)

  Manfield, Harry

  Beale, W. P.

  Greig, Colonel James William

  Markham, Arthur Basil

  Beauchamp, Edward

  Griffith, Ellis J.

  Marks, George Croydon

  Beck, Arthur Cecil

  Guest, Hon. Major C. H. C. (Pembroke)

  Marshall, Arthur Harold

  Benn, W. (Tower Hamlets, St. Geo.)

  Gwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway)

  Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.)

  Bentham, G. J.

  Hackett, John

  Meehan, Patrick A. (Queen's Co.)

  Black, Arthur W.

  Hall, Frederick (Normanton)

  Menzies, Sir Walter

  Boland, John Plus

  Hancock, J. G.

  Millar, James Duncan

  Booth, Frederick Handel

  Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose)

  Molloy, Michael

  Bowerman, C W.

  Haraie, J. Keir (Merthyr Tydvil)

  Molteno, Percy Alport

  Boyle, Daniel (Mayo, North)

  Harmsworth, R. L.

  Montagu, Hon. E. S.

  Brace, William

  Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale)

  Morrell, Philip

  Brady, P. J.

  Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, W.)

  Muldoon, John

  Brigg, Sir John

  Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N. E.)

  Munro, Robert

  Brocklehurst, William B.

  Harwood, George

  Munro-Ferguson, Rt. Hon. R. C.

  Brunner, John F. L.

  Haslam, James (Derbyshire)

  Nannetti, Joseph P.

  Bryce, J. Annan

  Havelock-Allan, Sir Henry

  Needham, Christopher T.

  Burns, Rt. Hon. John

  Haworth, Arthur A.

  Neilson, Francis

  Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas

  Hayden, John Patrick

  Nicholson, Charles N. (Doncaster)

  Byles, William Pollard

  Hayward, Evan

  Nolan, Joseph

  Carr-Gomm, H. W.

  Helme, Norval Watson

  Norman, Sir Henry

  Cawley, Sir Frederick (Prestwich)

  Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

  Norton, Captain Cecil W.

  Cawley, H. T. (Lancs., Heywood)

  Henderson, J. McD. (Aberdeen, W.)

  Nugent, Sir Walter Richard

  Chapple, Dr. William Allen

  Henry, Sir Charles S.

  O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

  Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston S.

  Herbert, Col. Sir Ivor

  O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)

  Clancy, John Joseph

  Higham, John Sharp

  O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)

  Clough, William

  Hinds, John

  O'Doherty, Philip

  Clynes, John B.

  Hodge, John

  O'Dowd, John

  Collins, G. P. (Greenock)

  Holt, Richard Durning

  Ogden, Fred

  Compton-Rickett, Rt. Hon. Sir J.

  Hope, John Deans (Haddington)

  O'Kelly, Edward P. (Wicklow, W.)

  Condon, Thomas Joseph

  Howard, Hon. Geoffrey

  O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N.)

  Corbett, A. Cameron

  Hughes, Spencer Leigh

  O'Malley, William

  Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.

  Hunter, William (Lanark, Govan)

  O'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, S.)

  Cotton, William Francis

  Isaacs, Sir Rufus Daniel

  O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

  Cowan, W. H.

  John, Edward Thomas

  O'Shee, James John

  Crawshay-Williams, Eliot

  Johnson, W.

  O'Sullivan, Timothy

  Crooks, William

  Jones, Sir D. Brynmor (Swansea)

  Palmer, Godfrey Mark

  Crumley, Patrick

  Jones, Edgar (Merthyr Tydvil)

  Parker, James (Halifax)

  Cullman, J.

  Jones, Leif Stratten (Notts, Rushcliffe)

  Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek)

  Dalziel, Sir James H. (Kirkcaldy)

  Jones, William (Carnarvonshire)

  Pearce, William (Limehouse)

  Davies, Ellis William (Eifion)

  Jones, W. S. Glyn- (T. H'mts, Stepney)

  Pearson, Hon. Weetman H. M.

  Davies, Timothy (Lincs., Louth)

  Jowett, Frederick William

  Pease, Rt. Hon. Joseph A. (Rotherham)

  Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.)

  Joyce, Michael

  Phillips, Col. Ivor (Southampton)

  Dawes, J. A.

  Keating, Matthew

  Phillips, John (Longford, S.)

  Delany, William

  Kellaway, Frederick George

  Pickersgill, Edward Hare

  Deninan, Hon. R. D.

  Kelly, Edward

  Pointer, Joseph

  Dillon, John

  Kennedy, Vincent Paul

  Pollard, Sir George H.

  Doris, William

  Kilbride, Denis

  Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H.

  Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness)

  King, Joseph (Somerset, North)

  Power, Patrick Joseph

  Duncan, J. Hastings (York, Otley)

  Lambert, George (Devon, Molton)

  Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central)

  Edwards, Allen C. (Glamorgan, E.)

  Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade)

  Priestley, Sir W. E. B. (Bradford, E.)

  Edwards, Enoch (Hanley)

  Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, West)

  Pringle, William M. R.

  Elibank, Rt. Hon. Master of

  Lawson, Sir W. (Cumb'rld., Cockerm'th)

  Radford, George Heynes

  Raffan, Peter Wilson

  Sherwell, Arthur James

  Watt, Henry A

  Rainy, Adam Rolland

  Simon, Sir John Allsebrook

  White, Sir George (Norfolk)

  Raphael, Sir Herbert H.

  Smith, Albert (Lancs., Clitheroe)

  White, Sir Luke (York, E. R.)

  Rea, Rt. Hon. Russell (South Shields)

  Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.)

  White, Patrick (Meath, North)

  Rea, Walter Russell (Scarborough)

  Snowden, P.

  Whitehouse, John Howard

  Reddy, Michael

  Spicer, Sir Albert

  Whittaker, Rt. Hon. Sir Thomas P.

  Redmond, John E. (Waterford)

  Stanley, Albert (Staffs, N. W.)

  Whyte, A. F.

  Redmond, William (Clare, E.)

  Strachey, Sir Edward

  Wiles, Thomas

  Richards, Thomas

  Strauss, Edward A. (Southwark, West)

  Wilkie, Alexander

  Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)

  Summers, James Woolley

  Williams, J. (Glamorgan)

  Roberts, George H. (Norwich)

  Sutton, John E.

  Williams, Penry (Middlesbrough)

  Roberts, Sir J. H. (Denbighs.)

  Taylor, John W. (Durham)

  Williamson, Sir Archibald

  Robertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradford)

  Tennant, Harold John

  Wilson, Hon. G. G. (Hull, W.)

  Robinson, Sidney

  Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.)

  Wilson, John (Durham, Mid)

  Roche, Augustine (Louth)

  Thomas, J. H. (Derby)

  Wilson, J. W. (Worcestershire, N.)

  Roe, Sir Thomas

  Ure, Rt. Hon. Alexander

  Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)

  Rose, Sir Charles Day

  Verney, Sir Harry

  Winfrey, Richard

  Rowntree, Arnold

  Walsh, Stephen (Lancs., Ince)

  Wood, T. M'Kinnon (Glasgow)

  Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland)

  Walters, John Tudor

  Young, Samuel (Cavan, East)

  Samuel, J. (Stockton)

  Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent)

  Young, William (Perth, East)

  Scanlan, Thomas

  Ward, W. Dudley (Southampton)

  Yoxall, Sir James Henry

  Schwann, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles E.

  Wardle, George J.

  Scott, A. MacCallum (Glasgow, Bridgeton)

  Waring, Walter

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr. Illingworth and Mr. Gulland.

  Seely, Colonel, Rt. Hon. J. E. B.

  Warner, Sir Thomas Courtenay

  Sheehy, David

  Wason, Rt. Hon. E. (Clackmannan)

  NOES.

  Aitken, William Max.

  Foster, Philip Staveley

  Magnus, Sir Philip

  Anson, Sir William Reynell

  Frewen, Moreton

  Mason, James F. (Windsor)

  Archer-Shee, Major M.

  Gardner, Ernest

  Meysey-Thompson, E. C.

  Arkwright, John Stanhope

  Gastrell, Major w. Houghton

  Mildmay, Francis Bingham

  Ashley, Wilfrid W.

  Gibbs, George Abraham

  Mount, William Arthur

  Astor, Waldorf

  Gilmour, Captain J.

  Neville, Reginald J. N.

  Bagot, Lieut.-Colonel J.

  Goldman, C S.

  Newdegate, F. A.

  Baird, John Lawrence

  Goldsmith, Frank

  Newman, John R. P.

  Baker, Sir Randolf L. (Dorset, N.)

  Goulding, Edward Alfred

  Newton, Harry Kottingham

  Baldwin, Stanley

  Grant, J. A.

  Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield)

  Banbury, Sir Frederick George

  Greene, Walter Raymond

  Nield, Herbert

  Baring, Captain Hon. G.

  Gretton, John

  Orde-Powlett, Hon. W. G. A.

  Barlow, Montague (Salford, South)

  Guinness, Hon. Walter Edward

  Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William

  Barnston, H.

  Gwynne, R. S. (Sussex, Eastbourne)

  Parker, Sir Gilbert (Gravesend)

  Barrie, H. T. (Londonderry, N.)

  Haddock, George Bahr

  Parkes, Ebenezer

  Beach, Hon. Michael Hugh Hicks

  Hall, Fred (Dulwich)

  Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington)

  Benn, Arthur Shirley (Plymouth)

  Hambro, Angus Valdemar

  Peel, Captain R. F. (Woodbridge)

  Bennett-Goldney, Francis

  Hamilton, Lord C. J. (Kensington, S.)

  Peel, Hon. W. R. W. (Taunton)

  Bentinck, Lord H. Cavendish.

  Hardy, Laurence

  Perkins, Walter Frank

  Bigland, Alfred

  Harris, Henry Percy

  Pole-Carew, Sir R.

  Bird, A.

  Helmsley, Viscount

  Pollock, Ernest Murray

  Boscawen, Sackville T. Griffith

  Henderson, Major H. (Berkshire)

  Pryce-Jones, Col. E.

  Boyle, W. Lewis (Norfolk, Mid)

  Hill, Sir Clement L.

  Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel

  Boyton, James

  Hillier, Dr. A. P.

  Rice, Hon. Walter Fitz-Uryan

  Brassey, H. Leonard Campbell

  Hills, John Waller

  Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall)

  Bridgeman, W. Clive

  Hill-Wood, Samuel

  Ronaldshay, Earl of

  Bull, Sir William James

  Hohler, Gerald Fitzroy

  Rothschild, Lionel de

  Burdett-Coutts, W.

  Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield)

  Rutherford, Watson (L'pool, W. Derby)

  Burn, Colonel C. R.

  Horner, Andrew Long

  Salter, Arthur Clavell

  Butcher, John George

  Houston, Robert Paterson

  Sanders, Robert Arthur

  Carlile, Edward Hildred

  Hume-Williams, Wm. Ellis

  Sanderson, Lancelot

  Cassel, Felix

  Hunt, Rowland

  Sandys, G. J. (Somerset, Wells)

  Cautley, Henry Strother

  Jardine, Ernest (Somerset, E.)

  Scott, Leslie (Liverpool,. Exchange)

  Cave, George

  Joynson-Hicks, William

  Smith, F. E. (Liverpool, Walton)

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Kebty-Fletcher, J. R.

  Smith, Harold (Warrington)

  Cecil, Lord Hugh (Oxford University)

  Kerry, Earl of

  Spear, John Ward

  Chaloner, Colonel R. G. W.

  Kimber, Sir Henry

  Stanier, Beville

  Clay, Captain H. H. Spender

  King, Sir Henry Seymour (Hull)

  Stanley, Hon. G. F. (Preston)

  Cooper, Richard Ashmole

  Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement

  Starkey, John Ralph

  Courthope, George Loyd

  Kirkwood, J. H. M.

  Staveley-Hill, Henry (Staffordshire)

  Craig, Captain James (Down, E.)

  Lane-Fox, G. R.

  Stewart, Gershom

  Craig, Norman (Kent, Thanet)

  Larmor, Sir J.

  Strauss, Arthur (Paddington, North)

  Craik, Sir Henry

  Law, Andrew Bonar (Bootle, Lancs.)

  Swift, Rigby

  Crichton-Stuart, Lord Ninian

  Lee, Arthur H.

  Sykes, Alan John

  Cripps, Sir Charles Alfred

  Locker-Lampson, G. (Salisbury)

  Talbot, Lord Edmund

  Croft, Henry Page

  Locker-Lampson, O. (Ramsey)

  Terrell, George (Wilts, N. W.)

  Dalrymple, Viscount

  Lockwood, Rt. Hon. Lt.-Col. A. R.

  Terrell, Henry (Gloucester)

  Dickson, Rt. Hon. C. Scott

  Long, Rt. Hon. Walter

  Thomson, W. Mitchell. (Down, N.)

  Dixon, Charles Harvey

  Lonsdale, John Brownlee

  Thynne, Lord Alexander

  Du Cros, Arthur Philip

  Lowe, Sir F. W. (Birm., Edgbaston)

  Tobin, Alfred Aspinall

  Duke, Henry Edward

  Lowther, Claude (Cumberland, Eskdale)

  Tryon, Captain George Clement

  Eyres-Monsell, Bolton M.

  Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. A. (Hanover Sq.)

  Walker, Col. William Hall

  Faber, Capt. W. V. (Hants, W.)

  Lyttelton, Hon. J. C. (Droitwich)

  Ward, A. S. (Herts, Watford)

  Fell, Arthur

  MacCaw, Wm. J. MacGeagh

  Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid)

  Fitzroy, Hon. Edward A.

  Macmaster, Donald

  Wheler, Granville C. H.

  Fleming, Valentine

  M'Mordie, Robert

  White, Major G. D. (Lancs., Southport)

  1718

  1719

  Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.)

  Wood, Hon. E. F. L. (Yorks, Ripon)

  Younger, George

  Willoughby, Major Hon. Claude

  Wood, John (Stalybridge)

  Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E. R.)

  Worthington-Evans, L.

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Viscount

  Winterton, Earl

  Yate, Colonel C. E.

  Valentia and Mr. H. W. Forster.

  Wolmer, Viscount

  Yerburgh, Robert

  Question put accordingly, "That the word 'three' stand part of the Clause."
  The Committee divided: Ayes, 289; Noes, 137.

  Division No. 183.]

  AYES.

  [10.30 p.m.

  Abraham, William (Dublin Harbour)

  Elibank, Rt. Hon. Master of

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Abraham, Rt. Hon. William (Rhondda)

  Elverston, Harold

  Logan, John William

  Acland, Francis Dyke

  Esmonde, Dr. John (Tipperary, N.)

  Lough, Rt. Hon. Thomas

  Adamson, William

  Esmonde, Sir Thomas (Wexford, N.)

  Low, Sir F. (Norwich)

  Adkins, W. Ryland D.

  Essex, Richard Walter

  Lundon, Thomas

  Agar-Robartes, Hon. T. C. R.

  Falconer, James

  Lynch, Arthur Alfred

  Agnew, Sir George William

  Fenwick, Charles

  Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester)

  Ainsworth, John Stirling

  Ferens, Thomas Robinson

  Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk Burghs)

  Alden, Percy

  Ffrench, Peter

  Maclean, Donald

  Allen, Arthur A. (Dumbarton)

  Field, William

  Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.

  Allen, Charles Peter (Stroud)

  Fiennes, Hon. Eustace Edward

  MacNeill, John Gordon Swift

  Asquith, Rt. Hon. Herbert Henry

  Fitzgibbon, John

  MacVeagh, Jeremiah

  Baker, H. T. (Accrington)

  Flavin, Michael Joseph

  M'Callum, John M.

  Balfour, Sir Robert (Lanark)

  France, Gerald Ashburner

  M'Curdy, C. A.

  Barlow, Sir John Emmott (Somerset)

  Gelder, Sir W. H.

  M'Laren, H. D. (Leicester)

  Barnes, George N.

  Gill, A. H.

  M'Laren, F. W. S. (Lincs., Spalding)

  Barran, Sir J. N. (Hawick)

  Glanville, H. J.

  M'Laren, Walter S. B. (Ches., Crewe)

  Barran, Rowland Hirst (Leeds, N.)

  Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford

  M'Micking, Major Gilbert

  Barry, Redmond John (Tyrone, N.)

  Goldstone, Frank

  Manfield, Harry

  Barton, William

  Greenwood, Granville G. (Peterborough)

  Markham, Arthur Basil

  Beale, W. P.

  Greig, Colonel J. W.

  Marks, George Croydon

  Beauchamp, Edward

  Griffith, Ellis J.

  Marshall, Arthur Harold

  Beck, Arthur Cecil

  Guest, Major Hon. C. H. C. (Pembroke)

  Masterman, C. F. G.

  Benn, W. (Tower Hamlets, St. Geo.)

  Gwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway)

  Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.)

  Bentham, G. J

  Hackett, John

  Meehan, Patrick A. (Queen's Co.)

  Bentinck, Lord Henry Cavendish

  Hall, Frederick (Normanton)

  Menzies, Sir Walter

  Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine

  Hancock, J. G

  Millar, James Duncan

  Black, Arthur W.

  Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose)

  Molloy, Michael

  Boland, John Pius

  Hardie, J. Keir (Merthyr Tydvil)

  Molteno, Percy Alport

  Booth, Frederick Handel

  Harmsworth, R. L.

  Montagu, Hon. E. S.

  Bowerman, C. W.

  Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale)

  Morrell, Philip

  Boyle, Daniel (Mayo, North)

  Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, W.)

  Muldoon, John

  Brace, William

  Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N. E.)

  Munro, Robert

  Brady, P. J.

  Harwood, George

  Munro-Ferguson, Rt. Hon. R. C.

  Brigg, Sir John

  Haslam, James (Derbyshire)

  Nannetti, Joseph P.

  Brocklehurst, William B.

  Havelock-Allan, Sir Henry

  Needham, Christopher T.

  Brunner, John F. L.

  Haworth, Arthur A.

  Neilson, Francis

  Bryce, J. Annan

  Hayden, John Patrick

  Nicholson, Charles N. (Doncaster)

  Burns, Rt. Hon. John

  Hayward, Evan

  Nolan, Joseph

  Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas

  Helme, Nerval Watson

  Norman, Sir Henry

  Buxton, Rt. Hon. Sydney C. (Poplar)

  Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

  Norton, Captain Cecil W.

  Byles, William Pollard

  Henderson, J. McD. (Aberdeen, W.)

  Nugent, Sir Walter Richard

  Carr-Gomm, H. W.

  Henry, Sir Charles S.

  O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

  Cawley, Sir Frederick (Prestwich)

  Herbert, Col. Sir Ivor

  O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)

  Cawley, H. T. (Lancs., Heywood)

  Higham, John Sharp

  O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)

  Chapple, Dr. William Allen

  Hinds, John

  O'Doherty, Philip

  Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston S.

  Hodge, John

  O'Dowd, John

  Clancy, John Joseph

  Holt, Richard Durning

  Ogden, Fred

  Clough, William

  Hope, John Deans (Haddington)

  O'Kelly, Edward P. (Wicklow, W.)

  Clynes, John R.

  Howard, Hon. Geoffrey

  O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N.)

  Collins, Godfrey P. (Greenock)

  Hughes, Spencer Leigh

  O'Malley, William

  Compton-Rickett, Rt. Hon. Sir J.

  Hunter, William (Lanark, Govan)

  O'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, S.)

  Condon, Thomas Joseph

  Isaacs, Sir Rufus Daniel

  O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

  Corbett, A. Cameron

  John, Edward Thomas

  O'Shee, James John

  Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.

  Johnson, W.

  O'Sullivan, Timothy

  Cotton, William Francis

  Jones, Sir D. Brynmor (Swansea)

  Palmer, Godfrey Mark

  Crawshay-Williams, Eliot

  Jones, Edgar (Merthyr Tydvil)

  Parker, James Halifax

  Crooks, William

  Jones, Leif Stratten (Notts, Rushcliffe)

  Pearce, Robert (Staffs., Leek)

  Crumley, Patrick

  Jones, William (Carnarvonshire)

  Pearce, William (Limehouse)

  Cullinan, J.

  Jones, W. S. Glyn. (T. H'mts., Stepney)

  Pearson, Hon. Weetman H. M.

  Davies, Ellis William (Eifion)

  Jowett, Frederick William

  Pease, Rt. Hon. Joseph A. (Rotherham)

  Davies, Timothy (Lincs., Louth)

  Joyce, Michael

  Philipps, Col. Ivor (Southampton)

  Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.)

  Keating, Matthew

  Phillips, John (Longford, S.)

  Dawes, J. A.

  Kellaway, Frederick George

  Pickersgill, Edward Hare

  Delany, William

  Kelly, Edward

  Pirie, Duncan Vernon

  Denman, Hon. Richard Douglas

  Kennedy, Vincent Paul

  Pointer, Joseph

  Dillon, John

  Kilbride, Denis

  Pollard, Sir George H.

  Doris, William

  King, Joseph (Somerset, North)

  Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H.

  Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness)

  Lambert, George (Devon, Molton)

  Power, Patrick Joseph

  Duncan, J. Hastings (York, Otley)

  Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade)

  Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central)

  Edwards, Allen C. (Glamorgan, E.)

  Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, West)

  Priestley, Sir W. E. B. (Bradford, E.)

  Edwards, Enoch (Hanley)

  Levy, Sir Maurice

  Primrose, Hon. Neil James

  Pringle, William M. R.

  Seely, Colonel, Rt. Hon. J. E. B.

  Wason, Rt. Hon. E. (Clackmannan)

  Radford, G. H.

  Sheehy, David

  White, Sir George (Norfolk)

  Raffan, Peter Wilson

  Sherwell, Arthur James

  White, Sir Luke (York, E. R.)

  Rainy, Adam Rolland

  Simon, Sir John Allsebrook

  White, Patrick (Meath, North)

  Raphael, Sir Herbert Henry

  Smith, Albert (Lancs., Clitheroe)

  Whitehouse, John Howard

  Rea, Rt. Hon. Russell (South Shields)

  Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.)

  Whittaker, Rt. Hon. Sir Thomas P.

  Rea, Walter Russell (Scarborough)

  Snowden, P.

  Whyte, A. F.

  Reddy, Michael

  Spicer, Sir Albert

  Wiles, Thomas

  Redmond, John E. (Waterford)

  Stanley, Albert (Staffs, N. W.)

  Wilkie, Alexander

  Redmond, William (Clare, E.)

  Strachey, Sir Edward

  Williams, John (Glamorgan)

  Richards, Thomas

  Strauss, Edward A. (Southwark, West)

  Williams, Penry (Middlesbrough)

  Richardson, Thomas (Whitehaven)

  Summers, James Woolley

  Williamson, Sir Archibald

  Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)

  Sutton, John E.

  Wilson, Hon. G. G. (Hull, W.)

  Roberts, George H. (Norwich)

  Taylor, John W. (Durham)

  Wilson, John (Durham, Mid)

  Roberts, Sir J. H. (Denbighs)

  Tennant, Harold John

  Wilson, J. W. (Worcestershire, N.)

  Robertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradford)

  Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.)

  Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)

  Robinson, Sidney

  Thomas, J. H. (Derby)

  Winfrey, Richard

  Roche, Augustine (Louth)

  Ure, Rt. Hon. Alexander

  Wood, T. M'Kinnon (Glasgow)

  Roe, Sir Thomas

  Verney, Sir Harry

  Young, Samuel (Cavan, E.)

  Rose, Sir Charles Day

  Walsh, Stephen (Lancs., Ince)

  Young, William (Perth, East)

  Rowntree, Arnold

  Walters, John Tudor

  Yoxall, Sir James Henry

  Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland)

  Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent)

  Samuel, J. (Stockton)

  Ward, W. Dudley (Southampton)

  Scanlan, Thomas

  Wardle, George J.

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr. Illingworth and Mr. Gulland.

  Schwann, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles E.

  Waring, Walter

  Scott, A. MacCallum (Glasgow. Bridgeton)

  Warner, Sir Thomas Courtenay

  NOES.

  Aitken, William Max.

  Gardner, Ernest

  Newman, John R. P.

  Archer-Shee, Major Martin

  Gastrell, Major W. Houghton

  Newton, Harry Kottingham

  Arkwright, John Stanhope

  Goldman, C. S.

  Nield, Herbert

  Astor, Waldorf

  Goldsmith, Frank

  Norton-Griffiths, J.

  Bagot, Lieut.-Colonel J.

  Goulding, Edward Alfred

  Orde-Powlett, Hon. W. G. A.

  Baird, John Lawrence

  Grant, J. A.

  Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William

  Baker, Sir Randolf L, (Dorset, N.)

  Greene, Walter Raymond

  Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington)

  Baldwin, Stanley

  Gretton, John

  Peel, Capt. R. F. (Woodbridge)

  Banbury, Sir Frederick George

  Guinness, Hon. Walter Edward

  Peel, Hon. W. R. W. (Taunton)

  Baring, Capt. Hon. G. V.

  Haddock, George Bahr

  Pollock, Ernest Murray

  Barnbton, H.

  Hall, Fred (Dulwich)

  Pryce-Jones, Col. E. (M'tgom'y B'ghs.)

  Barrie, H. T. (Londonderry, N.)

  Hambro, Angus Valdemar

  Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel

  Benn, Arthur Shirley (Plymouth)

  Hamilton, Lord C. J. (Kensington)

  Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall)

  Bennett-Goldney, Francis

  Hardy, Laurence

  Rolleston, Sir John

  Bigland, Alfred

  Harris, Henry Percy

  Ronaldshay, Earl of

  Bird, Alfred

  Helmsley, Viscount

  Rothschild, Lionel de

  Boyle, W. Lewis (Norfolk, Mid)

  Henderson, Major H. (Berkshire)

  Rutherford, W. (Liverpool, W. Derby)

  Boyton, J.

  Hickman, Col. Thomas E.

  Sandys, G. J. (Somerset, Wells)

  Brassey, H. Leonard Campbell

  Hillier, Dr. Alfred Peter

  Scott, Leslie (Liverpool, Exchange)

  Bridgeman, W. Clive

  Hills, John Waller

  Stanier, Beville

  Bull, Sir William James

  Hill-Wood, Samuel

  Staveley-Hill, Henry (Staffordshire)

  Burdett-Coutts, W.

  Hohler, G. F

  Stewart, Gershom

  Burn, Colonel C. R.

  Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield)

  Strauss, Arthur (Paddington, North)

  Butcher, John George

  Horner, Andrew Long

  Swift, Rigby

  Cassel, Felix

  Houston, Robert Paterson

  Sykes, Alan John

  Cautley, H. S.

  Jardine, Ernest (Somerset, E.)

  Terrell, George (Wilts, N. W.)

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Joynson-Hicks, William

  Thomson, W. Mitchell. (Down, North)

  Chaloner, Colonel R. G. W.

  Kebty-Fletcher, J. R.

  Thynne, Lord A.

  Clay, Captain H. H. Spender

  Kerry, Earl of

  Tobin, Alfred Aspinall

  Cooper, Richard Ashmole

  Kimber, Sir Henry

  Walker, Col. William Hall

  Courthope, George Loyd

  King, Sir Henry Seymour (Hull)

  Ward, A. S. (Herts, Watford)

  Craig, Charles Curtis (Antrim, S.)

  Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement

  Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid)

  Craig, Captain James (Down, E.)

  Kirkwood, John H. M.

  Wheler, Granville C. H.

  Craig, Norman (Kent, Thanet)

  Larmor, Sir J.

  Willoughby, Major Hon. Claude

  Craik, Sir Henry

  Locker-Lampson, G. (Salisbury)

  Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E. R.)

  Crichton-Stuart, Lord Ninian

  Locker-Lampson, O. (Ramsey)

  Winterton, Earl

  Croft, Henry Page

  Lowe, Sir F. W. (Birm., Edgbaston)

  Wolmer, Viscount

  Dalrymple, Viscount

  Lowther, Claude (Cumberland, Eskdale)

  Wood, Hon. E. F. L. (Yorks, Ripon).

  Dickson, Rt. Hon. C. Scott

  Lyttelton, Hon. J. C. (Droitwich)

  Wood, John (Stalybridge)

  Dixon, Charles Harvey

  Macmaster, Donald

  Worthington-Evans, L.

  Du Cros, Arthur Philip

  M'Mordie, Robert

  Yate, Colonel C. E.

  Duke, Henry Edward

  Magnus, Sir Philip

  Yerburgh, Robert

  Eyres-Monsell, Bolton M.

  Mason, James F. (Windsor)

  Younger, George

  Faber, Capt. W. V. (Hants, W.)

  Meysey-Thompson, E. C.

  Fleming, Valentine

  Mildmay, Francis Bingham

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Colonel

  Fletcher, John Samuel (Hampstead)

  Mount, William Arthur

  Griffith-Boscawen and Mr. Lane-Fox.

  Frewen, Moreton

  Newdegate, F. A.

  Mr. JAMES HOPE: I beg to move, in Sub-section (1) to leave out the word "sessions" ["in three successive sessions "], and to insert instead thereof the word "years."
  1722
  I move this because the word "sessions" is so very indefinite, and, at the same time-so very elastic. The Session may last for a week or it may last for practically the whole of the year. The first Session I came

  1723
  into this House, in November, 1900, lasted some ten days. Two years after there was a Session which began in January and lasted almost until Christmas Eve, and I believe in 1894 the Session lasted from early in one February till early in the next. Therefore the Session is a very bad unit when you are considering a matter of this kind, because it may mean a very long period or it may mean a very short period. The hon. Gentleman (Sir H. Dalziel) on the last Amendment spoke of special Spring Sessions, and special Autumn Sessions. What use did he mean those Sessions to be put to? When you speak of Autumn Sessions the name as a rule is a misnomer, because the Autumn Session ordinarily is merely an adjournment from some date in July or August to the following November. The Prime Minister the other day said the essence of a Session was that it should be opened by a King's Speech and prorogued by Commission; but of course that may be done at the end of one week or at the end of one year. I should like to cast myself forward in a spirit of hypothetical prophecy. On the hypothesis that this Bill passes—a large assumption—I would throw myself forward a year from the present time, about April, when, I presume, the great Home Rule Bill is brought in. I assume that it passes this House and is rejected by the House of Lords somewhere about November, 1912. Then the normal Session of 1912 will come to an end. That will be the first Session and the first year. That process, I presume, will be repeated in the following year, except that, I imagine, the Home Rule Bill of 1913 would have an exceedingly sharp Closure Motion governing the procedure under it, something like that which was applied to the first Budget of last year. The Session of 1913 would come to an end in the ordinary course, and then we would come to the year 1914 when Parliament presumably would meet in January or February. It would be necessary for that Parliament in that Session, of course, to pass the Supplementary Estimates and the Army and Navy Votes, but all the time hon. Gentlemen from Ireland would have their eyes fixed very attentively on the clock. I understand that the hon. Member for the Kirkcaldy Burghs (Sir H. Dalziel) is seized of that matter already. Pressure would be brought to have a special spring session and all the business that would be done in that Session would be the passing of the necessary
  1724
  votes. Then there would be a prorogation, and as soon as the two years were up, or within a month of two years being up, a fresh Session would be begun, and the Bill which had been twice through this House in the two Sessions before would be rushed through and become law. That is what I mean when I speak in a spirit of hypothetical prophecy. Assuming that all the Members opposite, and especially those below the Gangway on this side, wish this to come to pass, I am quite certain that procedure would be adopted. When you talk of "Session" in these circumstances that I think would be a misnomer. You would have two regular Sessions and another merely technical Session for the purpose of passing the Bill through.
  I submit that there ought, as a matter of Parliamentary practice under ordinary circumstances, to be only one Session in one year. I believe it is in the essence of healthy Parliamentary life that there should be a long recess, so that Members should have time to go among their Constituents to gird themselves up for the proceedings of the following Session. But if we do proceed as suggested under this Bill there is not the least doubt that special and extraordinary Sessions will, I was going to say, become the ordinary rule. I suggest that, if "Session" as understood in the old sense, that is one Session every year, be in the mind of the Government, a Bill should not have a special Session, but should be passed in three ordinary Sessions. If that is their view, then I think it is better expressed by putting in the word "years." I am certain that if they want the Bill to work it would work better in this way. There would be the proper amount of discussion, and there would be the proper amount of pause between one Session and another to enable the wish of the country to be known as far as ever it can be known in our procedure.
  Mr. CHURCHILL: The Government rely upon the two years' provision as the means by which the period of delay will be defined under the Bill, and within that period of two years it will be necessary to pass a measure three times through the House of Commons. The hon. Member now asks us to increase the provision of two years to a provision of three years, so that no Bill could pass into law against the wish of the present House of Lords unless it had been for three years from its introduction into the House of Commons

  1725
  passing through the House of Commons. We think that that is too long. It would be too long even within the limitations of the present period of Parliamentary life, but when it is understood that it is the intention of this Bill that the life of Parliament shall be reduced to five years clearly the period of three years from passing a Bill through Parliament would be altogether disproportionate to the total lifetime of the Parliament, and would inadequately recognise the mandate and authority of the Parliament while it was still fresh from contact with the constituencies. Even if the Parliament were prolonged to the full period of five years, which might not always be the case, it is quite clear that three years would be too lengthy a period. The Government, therefore, are not able to accept the Amendment of the hon. Gentlemen, as no doubt he had anticipated before he rose to move it.
  Mr. BALFOUR: I am not sure that the contest between my hon. Friend and the right hon. Gentleman opposite is about anything very substantial. As I read the Bill my hon. Friend behind me is perfectly right in saying that by pressing on your Session you could pass a Bill at the very beginning of the third year. But it seems to me that that could be done equally if the Amendment was carried. I admit that I may not have given to the matter all the consideration which it deserves, but as I read it, even if the Amendment were carried it would not mean, as the right hon. Gentleman opposite appears to suppose it would mean, that three years must elapse between the time the Bill is first introduced into this House and the time it becomes law, in spite of the House of Lords. All it would mean would be that in the third year, it might be on the first day of the third year, as I understand it, the Bill might have all the privileges which this measure is intended to give, and in this way it does seem to me with reference to the two years, that if it is desired to extend the time in which the House and the country have to consider and discuss these Bills you must increase the two years practically, because I do not see otherwise that there is very much between the proposal of my hon. Friend and the proposal of the Government. At the same time I should like to know exactly what the Government do mean by three Sessions? Are the three Sessions to be three genuine Sessions with three genuine discussions in those Sessions? They have never told us. The Prime
  1726
  Minister has always explained to us that he does leave the House of Lords the privilege of delay, or the power of causing delay, so that this House and the country will be able to discuss a measure over and over again, and finally come to a conclusion, which, if it be in favour of the Bill, should be of a kind which would override the decision of the House of Lords. There is to be the power of discussion, but I want to know whether there is to be genuine discussion or curtailed discussion and mere barren debate? I rather gathered from the Home Secretary, as to the two years, that it is a mere lapse of time, and if it is a mere lapse of time there is not very much difference between the Amendment of my hon. Friend and the proposal of the Government. I would like to ask the Government how they think the debates in this House will be conducted in the two years which, under both proposals, must elapse between the First Beading of a Bill in this House and the passing of it into law over the heads of the House of Lords. Are we to have a discusion of the kind, for example, that took place on the Budget last year, or are we to have the First Beading taken as a matter of course, the Second Reading in a day, and the Committee and remaining stages in two or more days? If that be so, then after all, the three Sessions is rather a sham, and on that point we have never had from the Prime Minister, so far as my recollection goes, the smallest indication of what the policy of the Government is. The only object of delay is that the country may have the measure under discussion, and that the measure should have serious discussion in this House. When the Government lay down three Sessions, do they mean that there should be three times serious discussion in this House? On that I should like very much, if the Government will so far honour us to know how exactly they read their own Bill. Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman will, as my hon. Friend put it, exercise "hypothetical prophecy," and tell us how, if the House of Lords reject a Bill, it will be dealt with in this House in the Second and Third Sessions.
  The PRIME MINISTER: Without indulging in prophecy, all I can say is what the actual provisions of the Bill are, and how they will work out in practice of course experience will show. The minimum of time from the first introduction of

  1727
  a Bill and its final carrying into law is two years. That is the minimum time—it may be longer, because the Bill must be carried in this House in three successive Sessions. Therefore the period of two years might be exceeded. At any rate, two years is the minimum, and three Sessions is the alternative; it may be less or it may be more, but two years is the minimum. As to the amount of discussion a Bill will receive in each of those years it is beyond my power to forecast. The House of Lords, at any rate, will have full opportunity of discussion under the provisions of this Bill in the two Sessions in which a measure goes up to them. The House of Commons, after all, is the custodian and trustee of the rights of free speech—[HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."]—and if they are not I should like to know who is the custodian. [An HON. MEMBER: "The House of Lords."] The House of Lords will have its two Sessions, and can exercise them to the full and to the utmost extent with regard to any measure sent to them. I think I have sufficiently answered the question of the hon. Gentleman. Two years is the minimum period, and the condition of a third Session may make it longer.
  Captain CRAIG: I must confess I think the Prime Minister's explanation of the intentions of the Government or of the meaning of this Bill is quite inadequate to the serious nature of the Amendment. I treat this Amendment as one of very great importance indeed. The hon. Member who moved it did so in terms perhaps more moderate than I would have used if I had been in his position, because I see no reason whatever why the Government, if it was of the kind of the present Government, could not hold the whole of three Sessions in one year. If the Government were as much under the control of the hon. and learned Member for Waterford (Mr. John Redmond) as they are now, there is no reason why next year it would not be possible for the hon. and learned Member to insist on having a Home Rule Bill brought in and passed through, and after rejection by the House of Lords have a prorogation, and the Bill brought in a second time, and again a third time in the year. Under the scheme proposed by this Amendment that would be impossible, because it says three successive years instead of Sessions. Therefore whatever else happened the country would have at least a year's interval
  1728
  before the Bill was reintroduced, and it is that year which might mean everything on a Home Rule Bill, or indeed, on any measure which was affected by this Bill. The Home Secretary, in his casual way, said it was quite enough for the wishes of the present House of Lords, but he forgets this Bill affects any House of Lords which is set up according to the Preamble afterwards. He never can resist making a hit at the present House of Lords, unjustly and unfairly, even in Debate in this House, as well as outside. I would like to ask the right hon. Gentleman whether, if the same treatment is to be meted out to a future constituted Second Chamber, why do the Government cling on to this Preamble at all? I cannot conceive why. The right hon. Gentleman seems to say that as the Bill stands at present it will allow the Second Chamber to discuss adequately any question which is brought before it. That is not the case. The Prime Minister, I think, is wrong in saying that under this Bill under the system of three Sessions, that the House of Lords would have adequate time for discussion. Take a large measure, I do not care what it is, and they are to get one month to discuss it. A Bill might take this House six months to discuss, and no matter how important, the Upper Chamber were to be allowed merely one month perhaps in order to revise it.
  The CHAIRMAN: The hon. Member's remarks are not relevant to the Amendment.
  Captain CRAIG: I am sorry to have strayed out of order, but it always happens when I follow the Prime Minister. I trust that my hon. Friend will press the Amendment to a division, in order that we may make it certain that whether a Bill has a long or short discussion each time it is brought forward, there shall at any rate be a year's interval between the successive introductions, rather than these nebulous Sessions to which the Treasury Bench attach so much importance. Will the right hon. Gentleman define what a Session shall mean, after the speech of the hon. Member for Kirkcaldy (Sir H. Dalziel)? The hon. Gentleman stated that a Session need not mean a year of Parliamentary time, but that, by the simple process of proroguing Parliament, you might have two Sessions in one year. In that way a new Parliament, in its freshness and vigour, might rush a Bill through the three stages in the first year, hang it up for the necessary two years, and

  1729
  then pass it into law. It will be a positive scandal if some restraint is not imposed upon the Government in thus rushing onwards to the destruction of the country. The Amendment is a most reasonable one, as it will ensure to the country an opportunity of making its voice heard upon any particular measure. Without the Amendment it will be possible for an ill-considered measure, after having been rushed through, to be filed away in the Chief Whip's Office, and then, at the end of two years, when it automatically becomes law, the country will find that they have been absolutely fooled by an unscrupulous Government.
  11.0 P.M.
  Viscount HELMSLEY: I agree that this Amendment is one of considerable importance, and I was surprised that the Prime Minister failed to say a single word in reply to my right hon. Friend's speech. The Government have not attempted to define what they mean by a Session. The Home Secretary says that he pins his faith entirely to the two years. But there is no guarantee at all that there will be two years' delay and discussion. Because, after all, what is it? Two years must have elapsed between the date of the first introduction of the Bill into the House of Commons and the date of its third passing. What does the first introduction of a Bill mean? It is not as if one were even to suppose that this Government would always have the working of this Bill if it passes. One has to look to the time when another Government may work it. The first introduction may be a purely formal step. I do not know that there is anything to prevent the Bill being brought in in dummy; or if there is to be a First Beading that it may be 'one which will occupy only one day's discussion. The Government can then drop that Bill for two years. They need not carry it another stage further till two years elapse. Just before the close of the two years the Government begin to take up their Bill seriously. The country for the first time begins to understand what it is about, and the Government put it through in one Session. There is nothing in the Bill to prevent the Government from having the three Sessions in the last year. Can anybody, can the Home Secretary, deny that? He may, and plausibly, but I do not think the Government will be able to deny that the effect of the Clause, as it reads at present is, as I have stated, unless these words are altered.
  1730
  I do not know that there is anywhere a definition of "a Session." I take it that a Session is that period between the formal opening of Parliament by the Sovereign or by a Royal Commission and the Prorogation. There is nothing to prevent Ministers of the Crown from advising such Prorogations as often as they please during any one year. It is true that nominally when we have an Autumn Session it is only an adjournment from the ordinary Session. But there is no reason whatever, if the Government have a particular motive in altering that Clause, such as it would have under the circumstances I have contemplated, that they should not crowd as many Sessions as they can into one year, and so defeat the spirit of the Bill. I do say that this most important question should be adequately discussed. The Government should tell us what they mean. Then we would be able to see what words are necessary to add or take away from the Bill, so that it may be made perfectly clear. We will then be able to judge whether there is still to be left to the House of Lords these limited functions of revision and delay which have been so much talked about by the Government.
  Mr. JAMES HOPE: On a point of Order, may I ask if this Amendment is withdrawn, or negatived, whether that of the hon. Gentleman the Member for Taunton (Mr. Peel) can be taken, because it undoubtedly does raise certain points in a better manner than the present Amendment?
  The CHAIRMAN: If the Amendment was withdrawn it would not interfere with any other Amendment. On page 30 of the White Paper there is an Amendment in the name of the hon. Member for Croydon, which raises the question in a somewhat different way. I do not know which of these is best. If this Amendment is withdrawn by consent neither of these Amendments would be interfered with.
  Mr. PEEL: I was going to raise a similar point of Order, namely, that my Amendment lower down definitely raises that point on the question of a substantial interval between Sessions and to prevent Sessions coming in one year. I think that is rather a different point from the one raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Croydon, whose Amendment limits the Session to seventy days.
  The CHAIRMAN: I agree the hon. Member's Amendment is quite in order.
  Mr. JAMES HOPE: Under these circumstances I ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.
  The CHAIRMAN: Is it your pleasure the Amendment be withdrawn? [HON. MEMBERS: "No, no."]
  Mr. JAMES HOPE: Then the point of Order I was making was this: If this Amendment is negatived, it will be in order for my hon. Friend the Member for Taunton (Mr. Peel) to move his Amendment.
  The CHAIRMAN: No. We have been discussing that very subject, and I do not think it would be in order.
  Mr. PEEL: On the point of Order, is not the question raised in the Amendment of my hon. Friend (Mr. Hope) quite different, because he deals with a longer period than two years? It is one clear definite point. My Amendment accepts the two years in the Government Bill, but merely distributes the time of the two years.
  The CHAIRMAN: I have to select the Amendment, and I have to consider what the Amendment selected raises.
  Mr. BALFOUR: May I ask this? My Noble Friend (Viscount Helmsley) has raised this point. A Bill may be introduced, not even under the Ten Minutes Rule, and the time under this Bill would run from that sham introduction. What I want to ask is whether you would allow the Amendment lower down modifying the words "date of the first introduction" or how you think we could ask the Government to do what I suspect they will be quite ready to do, namely, to make it quite clear that, at all events, the two years will be genuine? I do not suspect them of any desire of future chicane in the matter, but we know how they may be pressed in particular circumstances. I am sure they desire to follow out the limits they laid down and to make these limits precise and clear and to give a real statutory right to what they profess in the words of the Bill. I think the point made by my Noble Friend is really substantial. As the Bill now runs, the intention of the Government as to time—though we should like to see the time extended I accept it for the moment as adequate—but we should like to see this intention made perfectly clear and unmistakable in the phraseology of the Bill.
  The CHAIRMAN: I am much obliged to the right hon. Gentleman for asking me
  1732
  that question. There are Amendments down to insert "the Second Reading" and "the passing of the Bill," and it was my intention to allow one of those.
  The PRIME MINISTER: The Noble Lord has actually suggested the hypothesis that a Government might fraudulently introduce a Bill under the Ten Minutes Rule. [An HON. MEMBER: "It has been done."]
  Viscount HELMSLEY: I did not say this Government.
  The PRIME MINISTER: This Bill will be for all Governments. The suggestion is that a Government might introduce in dummy a Bill under the Ten Minutes Rule, lay it on the Table, and two years after, by exercising the perogative of the Crown have two special Sessions, two King's Speeches, and two Prorogations to comply with the terms of this Bill. A more preposterous proposition, and one more derogatory of all the traditions of this House, I cannot conceive. But if there are people so suspicious as to think that that is possible, then I will undertake between now and the Report stage to consider whether some words may be introduced to avoid what, I think, is wholly improbable—words which will absolutely obviate any possibility of such an abuse of our Parliamentary system.
  Mr. WALTER LONG: We are, of course, grateful to the Prime Minister for his promise. Probably owing to the enormous weight of the work which falls upon him he has omitted to realise that there is in the point raised by my Noble Friend a substantial argument. The Prime Minister spoke of "fraudulent introduction." There is no question about that. Under our Parliamentary system a Bill dates from the notice given of its presentation. The Prime Minister knows that the Government through Ministers give notice of their most important Bills on the first day of the Session.
  The PRIME MINISTER: But that is not the date of introduction.
  Mr. LONG: They often give notice of introduction before it is actually ready for presentation to the House. A very considerable interval often elapses between: the introduction of a Bill and the time it is printed and circulated amongst Members. I can produce hundreds of cases where, during the last thirty years, Bills have been explained and their formal introduction has not followed for some time

  1733
  after. The Prime Minister is thinking only of Bills introduced by the Government. The other day we debated the position of Bills introduced by private Members, and we asked whether in the case of Bills introduced by a private Member and passed through Parliament and afterwards adopted by the Government such measure would be subjected to this provision, and we were told they were. In the case of private Members it is a very common thing to obtain leave to introduce Bills and a very considerable time necessarily elapses between the introduction and the Second Reading. Such measures frequently are not printed until within two or three days of the Second Reading. There is no intention on the part of those who support this Amendment of imputing anything of an improper character, and I am glad that the Prime Minister has given us his assurance that if on further consideration he regards it as necessary words will be introduced.
  The PRIME MINISTER: That is the extent of my assurance.
  Sir RANDOLF BAKER: There is another point which I do not think the Prime Minister has considered. Supposing there is a Dissolution after the introduction of a certain measure in this House and the Government is defeated and then is returned to power again after an interval of two years and it reintroduces the measure first introduced in the Session before the last, you might have two years elapse—
  The CHAIRMAN: I think that cannot be discussed, because it is "three successive sessions."
  Mr. PEEL: I just wish to raise a point which you, Sir, said could not be raised later on my Amendment because it has already been alluded to in some expressions by an hon. Member behind me, but I venture to think it is a substantial point all the same. You have two years as the minimum time within which a Bill can be carried, but there is no provision limiting the time within which these separate Sessions may be held. An hon. Member opposite suggested you might have three Sessions in the first year. I limit it rather, to the question of the two Sessions, because we all know the passing of the Bill in the third Session will really not be a serious matter.
  The PRIME MINISTER: Would the hon. Member tell me to which Amendment he refers?
  Mr. PEEL: I am referring to a point which the Chairman said was included in this Amendment, namely, the suggestion that at least three months should elapse between the end of one Session and the beginning of the next. It is quite clear, if there is not some such provision, the whole object of the delay as stated by the Government might be defeated. After two years, you might very easily have your two Sessions in the same year with a very short interval between them. That is not merely my own suggestion, because I saw the suggestion was made by a very distinguished Liberal journalist, that this particular procedure should be applied to this Parliament Bill. He stated, if the House of Lords threw out this Bill, Parliament should be prorogued, and the next Session should begin one day afterwards-That particular Liberal journalist very often, I believe, writes under inspiration, but, whether he does or not, it is quite clear that, without making any great charge of fraud or any other charge against the Government, this might very easily be done. What would happen in that case? Two things, I think, would happen. First, there would be no opportunity at all for the public outside to digest that Bill or to express their views upon it before it was passed a second time through the House of Commons. After all, it is not enough for public opinion to be stirred outside. There must also be time for public opinion to affect this House, and how can public opinion affect this House if there is to be a very short interval, perhaps two or three days or a week, between the two different Sessions? We all have in our minds the discussion which took place on the Finance Bill.
  I think we know very well that there was weariness in this House of that particular subject. Is there anybody who sat through the Debates on that Finance Bill who could have again discussed it with the same force the next year? Yet here we are dealing with a case in which the same Bill may have to be debated twice within one year. It would require a Hercules with the ability of a Demosthenes to do that, and then probably the discussion would be of a very perfunctory character. Meanwhile, even if public opinion were stirred up in the country, it would have no effect on the Bill whatever. I submit that it is of vital importance to interpose a statutory period between the different Sessions, and in that case public opinion might have some effect on the

  1735
  proceedings with a great measure. That is really a substantial point, and I am sorry to understand I am not to have the opportunity of moving it.
  Sir RANDOLF BAKER: I wish to point out that it might conceivably be the case that there would be three successive Sessions in one actual year of time. The Bill might be passed in April, another Session commenced! The Bill passed again in November or December, and with another Session early in January the Bill could go through the third time by February or March. It would only need to have a separate Session in the autumn to enable a Bill to be passed three times in the course of one year. There would not, therefore, be that ample time for consideration while the Bill was before the country which the Government profess to give, as the whole process would have to be gone through in twelve months.
  Mr. BALFOUR: The point raised by my hon. Friend below the Gangway—although I am not sure that I agree with his last observation, because I think it would be rather a good thing if we could interpolate in this continuous period of two years a general election—was one which I will try to explain to the Prime Minister. Let us suppose that Mr. Gladstone's Home Rule Bills were identical with a Bill which was brought forward under this measure. The Home Rule Bill, I think, was introduced in this House in 1886, but did not pass; but it certainly passed this House in 1893. If this Bill were introduced in 1911, would it or would it not come under this Clause? I know it is not intended, and therefore the point I am making is not a point against the policy of the Government but against the drafting of the Bill. Everybody will agree that a Bill of that sort is not the Bill intended to be forced through the House of Lords as one more passage of the Bill so as to enable
  this House to coerce the other House. It is a pure question of drafting, and, of course, I know that the Government do not intend any procedure of that sort; but after my hon. Friend's speech, I do think that the proceeding which I have mentioned is one which should be suggested to the Government.
  The PRIME MINISTER: Yes, I will give as much attention to it as I can. I think the hon. Member's hypothesis included a dissolution of Parliament.
  Mr. BALFOUR: It was a point raised by my hon. Friend. I do not apprehend that it is intended to take that course under the present Bill. It is mere drafting.
  The PRIME MINISTER: It is a mere question of drafting, and I will undertake to consider it.
  Mr. JAMES HOPE: I quite admit that in this Amendment there is the flaw which my hon. Friend noted in it, but my vanity is somewhat consoled by the fact that the flaw was not obvious to the acute mind of the Home Secretary any more than it was to myself. I perfectly admit it would not without some addition carry out the purpose I had in my mind. Another purpose I had was to try and elicit from the Government whether the Sessions they refer to are what we understand by the ordinary annual Parliamentary Sessions, but that has not been elicited at all, and we are left in the dark as much as we were before. The Session may be such a Session as was suggested by the journalist my hon. Friend alluded to. It may be at any time of the year for the passage of certain Bills, and, unless we get some assurance on that point, I think it necessary to divide.
  Question put, "That the word 'sessions' stand part of the Bill."
  The Committee divided: Ayes, 266; Noes, 173.

  Division No. 184.]

  AYES.

  [11.35 p.m.

  Abraham, William (Dublin Harbour)

  Barnes, G. N.

  Brace, William

  Abraham, Rt. Hon. William (Rhondda)

  Barran, Sir J. N. (Hawick)

  Brady, P. J.

  Acland, Francis Dyke

  Barran, Rowland Hirst (Leeds, H.)

  Brocklehurst, W. B.

  Adamson, William

  Barry, Redmond John (Tyrone, N.)

  Burns, Rt. Hon. John

  Adkins, W. Ryland D.

  Barton, W.

  Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas

  Agar-Robartes, Hon. T. C. R.

  Beauchamp, Edward

  Buxton, Rt. Hon. Sydney C. (Poplar)

  Agnew, Sir George William

  Beck, Arther Cecil

  Byles, William Pollard

  Ainsworth, John Stirling

  Benn, W. W. (T. Hamlets, St. Geo.)

  Carr-Gomm, H. W.

  Alden, Percy

  Bentham, G. J.

  Cawley, Sir Frederick (Prestwich)

  Allen, Arthur Acland (Dumbartonshire)

  Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine

  Cawley, Harold T. (Heywood)

  Allen, Charles Peter (Stroud)

  Black, Arthur W.

  Chancellor, H. G.

  Asquith, Rt. Hon. Herbert Henry

  Boland, John Pius

  Chapple, Dr. W. A.

  Baker, Harold T. (Accrington)

  Booth, Frederick Handel

  Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston S.

  Baker, Joseph A. (Finsbury, E.)

  Bowerman, C. W.

  Clancy, John Joseph

  Salfour, Sir Robert (Lanark)

  Boyle, D. (Mayo, N.)

  Clough, William

  Clynes, John R.

  Joyce, Michael

  Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central)

  Collins, G. P. (Greenock)

  Keating, M.

  Primrose, Hon. Neil James

  Condon, Thomas Joseph

  Kellaway, Frederick George

  Pringle, William M. R.

  Corbett, A. Cameron

  Kelly, Edward

  Raffan, Peter Wilson

  Cornwall, Sr Edwin A.

  Kennedy, Vincent Paul

  Rainy, A. Rolland

  Cotton, William Francis

  Kilbride, Denis

  Raphael, Sir Herbert H.

  Cowan, W. H.

  King, J. (Somerset, N.)

  Rea, Rt. Hon. Russell (South Shields)

  Crooks, William

  Lambert, George (Devon, S. Molton)

  Rea, Walter Russell (Scarborough)

  Crumley, Patrick

  Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade)

  Reddy, Michael

  Cullinan, J.

  Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, West)

  Redmond, John E. (Waterford)

  Dalziel, Sir James H. (Kirkcaldy)

  Lawson, Sir W. (Cumb'rld., Cockerm'th)

  Redmond, William (Clare)

  Davies, E. William (Eifion)

  Levy, Sir Maurice

  Richards, Thomas

  Davies, Timothy (Lincs., Louth)

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Richardson, Thomas (Whitehaven)

  Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.)

  Low, Sir F. (Norwich)

  Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)

  Dawes, J. A.

  Lundon, T.

  Roberts, G. H. (Norwich)

  Delany, William

  Lyell, Charles Henry

  Roberts, Sir J. H. (Denbighs)

  Denman, Hon. R. D.

  Lynch, A. A.

  Robertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradford)

  Dillon, John

  Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester)

  Robinson, Sidney

  Doris, W.

  Macdortald, J. M. (Falkirk Burghs)

  Roche, Augustine (Louth)

  Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness)

  Maclean, Donald

  Roche, John (Galway, E.)

  Duncan, J. Hastings (York, Otley)

  Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.

  Roe, Sir Thomas

  Edwards, A. C. (Glamorgan, E.)

  MacNeill, John Gordon Swift

  Rose, Sir Charles Day

  Edwards, Enoch (Hanley)

  MacVeagh, Jeremiah

  Rowlands, James

  Elibank, Rt. Hon. Master of

  M'Callum, John M.

  Rowntree, Arnold

  Elverston, H.

  M'Curdy, C. A

  Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland)

  Esmonde, Dr. John (Tipperary, N.)

  M'Laren, F. W. S. (Lincs., Spalding)

  Samuel, J. (Stockton)

  Esmonde, Sir Thomas (Wexford, N.)

  M'Laren, Walter S. B. (Ches., Crewe)

  Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel)

  Falconer, J.

  Manfield, Harry

  Scanlan, Thomas

  Fenwick, Charles

  Markham, Arthur Basil

  Scott, A. MacCallum (Glasgow. Bridgeton)

  Perens, T. R.

  Marks, G. Croydon

  Seely, Col. Pt. Hon. J. E. B.

  Ffrench, Peter

  Marshall, Arthur Harold

  Sheehy, David

  Field, William

  Masterman, C. P. G.

  Simon, Sir John Allsebrook

  Fiennes, Hon. Eustace Edward

  Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.)

  Smith, Albert (Lancs., Clitheroe)

  Fitzgibbon, John

  Meehan, Patrick A. (Queen's Co.)

  Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.)

  Flavin, Michael Joseph

  Millar, James Duncan

  Stanley, Albert (Staffs, N. W.)

  France, G. A.

  Molloy, M.

  Strachey, Sir Edward

  Gelder, Sir W. A.

  Money, L. G. Chiozza

  Strauss, Edward A. (Southwark, West)

  Gill, A. H.

  Montagu, Hon. E. S.

  Summers, James Woolley

  Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford

  Worrell, Philip

  Sutton, John E.

  Goldstone, Frank

  Muldoon, John

  Taylor, John W. (Durham)

  Greenwood, Granville G. (Peterborough)

  Munro, R.

  Tennant, Harold John

  Greig, Colonel J. W.

  Nannetti, Joseph P.

  Ure, Rt. Hon. Alexander

  Guest, Major Hon. C. H. C. (Pembroke)

  Needham, Christopher T.

  Verney, Sir Henry

  Gwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway)

  Neilson, Francis

  Walsh, Stephen (Lancs., Ince)

  Hackett, J.

  Nicholson, Charles N. (Doncaster)

  Walters, John Tudor

  Hall, Frederick (Normanton)

  Nolan, Joseph

  Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent)

  Hancock, J. G.

  Norman, Sir Henry

  Ward, W. Dudley (Southampton)

  Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose)

  Norton, Captain Cecil W.

  Waring, Walter

  Hardie, J. Keir (Mcrthyr Tydvil)

  Nugent, Sir Walter Richard

  Warner, Sir Thomas Courtenay

  Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale)

  O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

  Wason, Rt. Hon. E. (Clackmannan)

  Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, W.)

  O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)

  Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney)

  Harvey W. E. (Derbyshire, N. E.)

  O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)

  Watt, Henry A.

  Harwood, George

  O'Doherty, Philip

  White, Sir George (Norfolk)

  Haslam, James (Derbyshire)

  O'Dowd, John

  White, Sir Luke (York, E. R.)

  Havelock-Allan, Sir Henry

  Ogden, Fred

  White, Patrick (Until, North)

  Haworth, Arthur A.

  O'Kelly, Edward P. (Wicklow, W.)

  Whitehouse, John Howard

  Hayden, John Patrick

  O'Malley, William

  Whittaker, Rt. Hon. Sir Thomas P.

  Hayward, Evan

  O'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, S.)

  Whyte, A. F. (Perth)

  Helme, Nerval Watson

  O'Shaughnessy P. J.

  Wiles, Thomas

  Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

  O'Shee, James John

  Wilkie, Alexander

  Henry, Sir Charles S.

  O'Sullivan, Timothy

  Williams, J. (Glamorgan)

  Higham, John Sharp

  Palmer, Godfrey

  Williams, P. (Middlesbrough)

  Hinds, John

  Parker, James (Halifax)

  Williamson, Sir A.

  Hodge, John

  Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek)

  Wilson, Hon. G. G. (Hull, W.)

  Holt, Richard Durning

  Pearce, William (Limehouse)

  Wilson, John (Durham, Mid)

  Howard, Hon. Geoffrey

  Pearson, Hon. Weetman H. M.

  Wilson, J. W. (Worcestershire, N.)

  Hughes, S. L.

  Pease, Rt. Hon. Joseph A. (Rotherham)

  Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)

  Hunter, W. (Govan)

  Philipps, Col. Ivor (Southampton)

  Winfrey, Richard

  John, Edward Thomas

  Phillips, John (Longford, S.)

  Wood, T. M'Kinnon (Glasgow)

  Johnson, W.

  Pickersgill, Edward Hare

  Young, Samuel (Cavan, E.)

  Jones, Edgar (Merthyr Tydvil)

  Pirie, Duncan V.

  Yoxall, Sir James Henry

  Jones, Leif Stratten (Notts, Rushcliffe)

  Politer, Joseph

  Jones, William (Carnarvonshire)

  Pollard, Sir George H.

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr. Illingworth and Mr. Gulland.

  Jones, W. S. Glyn- (Stepney)

  Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H.

  Jowett, F. W.

  Power, Patrick Joseph

  NOES.

  Aitken, William Max.

  Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (City, Lond.)

  Beach, Hon. Michael Hugh Hicks

  Anson, Sir William Reynell

  Banbury, Sir Frederick George

  Benn, Arthur Shirley (Plymouth)

  Archer-Shee, Major M.

  Banner, John S Harmood-

  Benn, Ion H. (Greenwich)

  Ashley, W. W.

  Baring, Capt. Hon. G. V.

  Bennett-Goldney Francis

  Bagot, Lieut.-Colonel J.

  Barlow, Montagu (Salford, South)

  Bentinck, Lord H. Cavendish.

  Baker, Sir R. L. (Dorset, N.)

  Barnston, Harry

  Bigland, Alfred

  Baldwin, Stanley

  Barrie, H. T. (Londonderry, H.)

  Boscawen, Col. Sackville T. Griffith.

  1738

  1739

  Boyle, W. L. (Norfolk, Mid)

  Hill-Wood, Samuel

  Pole-Carw, Sir R.

  Boyton, J.

  Hohler, G. Fitzroy

  Pollock, Ernest Murray

  Bridgeman, William Clive

  Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield)

  Pryce-Jones, Col. E.

  Bull, Sir William James

  Horner, Andrew Long

  Ratcliff, R. F.

  Burdett-Coutts, W.

  Houston, Robert Paterson

  Rawlinson, J. F. P.

  Burn, Colonel C. R.

  Hunt, Rowland

  Rice, Hon. W. F.

  Butcher, John George

  Jardine, E. (Somerset, E.)

  Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall)

  Carlile, Edward Hildred

  Joynson-Hicks, William

  Rolleston, Sir John

  Cassel, Felix

  Kebty-Fletcher, J. R.

  Ronaldshay, Earl of

  Castlereagh, Viscount

  Kerr-Smiley, Peter Keir

  Rothschild, Lionel de

  Cator, John

  Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement

  Rutherford, Watson (L'pool, W. Derby)

  Cautley, H. S.

  Kirkwood, J. H. M.

  Sanders, Robert A.

  Cave, George

  Lane-Fox, G. R.

  Sanderson, Lancelot

  Cecil, Lord Hugh (Oxford University)

  Lawson, Hon. H. (T. H'mts, Mile End)

  Smith, F. E. (Liverpool, Walton)

  Chaloner, Colonel R. G. W.

  Lee, Arthur H.

  Smith, Harold (Warrington)

  Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry

  Locker-Lampson, G. (Salisbury)

  Spear, John Ward

  Clay, Captain H. H. Spender

  Locker-Lampson, O. (Ramsey)

  Stanler, Beville

  Clive, Percy Archer

  Lockwood, Rt. Hon. Lt.-Colonel A. R.

  Stanley, Hon. G. F. (Preston)

  Courthope, G. Loyd

  Long, Rt. Hon. Walter

  Starkey, John R.

  Craig, Norman (Kent, Thanet)

  Lonsdale, John Brownlee

  Staveley-Hill, Henry

  Crichton-Stuart, Lord Ninian

  Lowe, Sir F. W. (Edgbaston)

  Stewart, Gershom

  Cripps, Sir C. A.

  Lowther, Claud (Eskdale)

  Strauss, Arthur (Paddington, North)

  Dalrymple, Viscount

  Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. A. (S. Geo., Han. S.)

  Sykes, Alan John

  Dickson, Rt. Hon. C. Scott-

  Lyttelton, Hon. J. C. (Droitwich)

  Terrell, G. (Wilts, N. W.)

  Dixon, C. H.

  MacCaw, Wm. J. MacGeagh

  Terrell, H. (Gloucester)

  Eyres-Monsell, B. M.

  Mackinder, H. J.

  Thomson, W. Mitchell. (Down, North)

  Faber, Capt. W. V. (Hants, W.)

  Macmaster, Donald

  Thynne, Lord Alexander

  Fell, Arthur

  M'Mordie, Robert

  Tobin, Alfred Aspinall

  Fitzroy, Hon. E. A.

  Magnus, Sir Philip

  Touche, George Alexander

  Fleming, Valentine

  Malcolm, Ian

  Tullibardine, Marquess of

  Fletcher, John Samuel (Hampstead)

  Mason, James F. (Windsor)

  Valentia, Viscount

  Forster, Henry William

  Meysey-Thompson, E. C.

  Walker, Col. William Hall

  Foster, Philip Staveley

  Mildmay, Francis Bingham

  Ward, Arnold (Herts, Watford)

  Gardner, Ernest

  Mills, Hon. Charles Thomas

  Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid)

  Cibbs, G. A.

  Morrison-Bell, Major A. C. (Honiton)

  Wheler, Granville C. H.

  Gilmour, Captain J.

  Mount, William Arthur

  White, Major G. D. (Lancs., Southport)

  Goldman, C. S.

  Neville, Reginald J. N.

  Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.)

  Goldsmith, Frank

  Newdegate, F. A.

  Willoughby, Major Hon. Claud

  Grant, J. A.

  Newman, John R. P.

  Wilson, A. Stanley (York, ER.)

  Greene, W. R.

  Newton, Harry Kottingham

  Winterton, Earl

  Gretton, John

  Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield)

  Wolmer, Viscount

  Guinness, Hon. W. E.

  Nield, Herbert

  Wood, Hon. E. F. L. (Ripon)

  Cwynne, R. S. (Sussex, Eastbourne)

  Norton-Griffiths, J. (Wednesbury)

  Wood, John (Stalybridge)

  Haddock, George Bahr

  O'Neill, Hon. A. E. B. (Antrim, Mid)

  Worthington-Evans, L.

  Hall, Fred (Dulwich)

  Orde-Powlett, Hon. W. G. A.

  Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart.

  Hardy, Laurence (Kent, Ashford)

  Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William

  Wyndham, Rt Hon. George

  Harris, Henry Percy

  Parker, Sir Gilbert (Gravesend)

  Yate, Col. C. E.

  Helmsley, Viscount

  Parkes, Ebenezer

  Younger, George

  Henderson, Major H. (Berks., Abingdon)

  Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington)

  Hickman, Col. Thomas E.

  Peel, Captain R. F. (Woodbridge)

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr. Baird and Captain Craig.

  Hill, Sir Clement L.

  Peel, Hon. W. R. W. (Taunton)

  Hills, J. W.

  Perkins, Walter F.

  Viscount WOLMER: I beg to move to leave out the words "whether of the same Parliament or not" ["in three successive sessions (whether of the same Parliament or not), and having been sent up"] and to insert instead thereof the words "in the present Parliament, but after the present Parliament in three sessions, one of which at least shall be in the Parliament next succeeding that in which the Bill has first been passed by the House of Commons."
  This Amendment has been rendered necessary by the fact that the hon. Member for Kingston (Mr. Cave) by an earlier Amendment has prevented the discussion of this particular Amendment as far as the present Parliament is concerned. This Amendment is designed simply to apply to all future Parliaments. The effect would be to give the electorate an opportunity of reviewing legislation
  1740
  brought forward by any Government about which the two Houses disagreed before it passes into law. This is not a referendum Amendment. A referendum is a decision of the people upon one particular point. The effect of this would be to enable the electorate to come to a decision upon the general policy of the Government in power. That is entirely distinct from the referendum and in every way consistent with the theory of representative Government that has been laid down by the Prime Minister to which he attaches such great importance. I admit that this Amendment does not go as far as we on this side of the House would like to go, but we have brought it forward from the point of view of being a compromise—something which we hope there might be a reasonable chance of the other side accepting in view of the fact that we have made considerable sacrifices on our own side.

  1741
  If this Amendment had been the law during the past two years, it would have allowed the Government to carry into law the Licensing Bill, the Education Bill, the Plural Voting Bill; in fact, all the Bills which they have not been able to carry into law, and which they have not liked to refer specifically to the country. In the same way this Amendment would have allowed the Unionist party, when they were in power for ten years, to carry the great measures which they did carry. Hon. Gentlemen opposite may look forward to the time when there is a reformed Second Chamber which might perhaps reject measures brought forward by a Unionist Government and, in view of the speedy establishment of that reformed Second Chamber which we have heard described by the Prime Minister, surely it is necessary to consider the care of Unionist legislation which might be rejected by a Second Chamber, but which would be allowed to pass into law if effect were given to this Amendment. The argument I desire to adduce is that this Amendment allows any Government which is capable of retaining the confidence of the people for two successive elections to carry out their policy unhindered. The Prime Minister in the course of a recent Debate laid tremendous emphasis on the fact that the Parliament Bill has been presented to the people, first in principle and then in detail. This Amendment secures that all measures on which the two Houses disagree shall be submitted to the people first in principle and then in detail, not on specific measures, but on the general policy of the Government. There is nothing in that which is in any way inconsistent with the strictest theory of representative Government as we have it propounded on the opposite benches. I believe this plan has other advantages besides being consistent with the strictest theory of representative Government. It would allow the classes of the community affected by the proposed legislation to have some amount of time in which they can accommodate themselves to the new conditions that were to take effect by reason of that legislation. Hon. Members opposite may say that that would be, in other words, merely delaying legislation.
  I do not think this Amendment would delay legislation, because, if it were adopted, one of its most important results would be to shorten the life of Parliament. The Government, who had a scheme of legislation that they
  1742
  wanted carried into law would be ready to dissolve after a shorter tenure of office than they are now prepared to do in order that the sanction of the electorate might be obtained to their measures, and that those measures should become law. What would the result of that be? I submit that in most cases, if the legislation was popular, the Government would be returned to power again. We should not have the Box and Cox interchange of parties which is so bad for all purposes of administration where continuity of policy is important. I believe that this Amendment would lead to much greater continuity of general policy. In proportion, as the Government proposals were popular and were desired by the people so would Ministers be re-elected and given further opportunity of carrying out the policy which they had commenced. At the present moment it too often happens that the Government introduce measures which were popular in their day, and they dissolve after the benefits conferred by those measures have been forgotten, and there is a complete revolution in policy as the result of the election. I believe that the effect of this Amendment would be that greater continuity of policy would be preserved, and by that means a Government might keep in office for several Parliaments in succession. In that way you would have the double effect of preventing the Government from carrying measures for the principle of which they had not got general support, or, secondly, enable them to carry their policy to completion instead of having it arrested in the middle, as is now often the case.
  I submit this is an entirely different question from the referendum, and it is simply because it is in keeping with the theory of representative Government in its strictest sense that I hope that it will receive the careful consideration of hon. Gentlemen opposite. It seems to me absurd to say that this would militate against the theory of representative Government, because the Amendment would be the test of whether the Government was representative or not. If the Government were unable to return to power on the general principles of their policy, it would surely be a proof that they were not a sufficiently representative Government. And it is simply in order to safeguard to the people the right of general survey of the principles of the Government that this Amendment has been introduced. This Amendment would not interfere with legislature's function

  1743
  of dealing with details. It would not in any way supplant the work of the House of Commons, but it would ensure that no general policy was carried out in its entirety without the express approval of the people of this country at a general election. I would like hon. Members opposite to remember that their great leader, Mr. Gladstone, laid it down that Liberalism was trust of the people, while, as he said, Conservatism was fear of the people—[An HON. MEMBER: "Distrust"]—distrust of the people. I think this Amendment and this Debate will test the accuracy of that statement, and, I hope, at any rate that the public outside these walls will be able to see how far the Liberal party of to-day are true to the maxim that was laid down some years ago by Mr. Gladstone. I believe if this Amendment is rejected by the Government that it will, indeed, be difficult for them to pretend that they are not afraid of having their policy judged by the people of this country at a general election or any other opportunity that they may have.
  The PRIME MINISTER: The particular topic referred to by the Noble Lord would be interesting at another time of the day, but I will confine myself strictly to the Amendment which he has moved, and which is obviously one the House of Commons cannot accept. The Noble Lord proposes in the first place that this House of Commons should be invested with a power which no future House of Commons is to have. This House of Commons could carry within two years and three successive years in defiance of the power of the House of Lords any legislation it pleased.
  The CHAIRMAN: Perhaps I should explain that the Noble Lord is moving the Amendment in this form because I thought the form on the Paper would not. be in order, inasmuch as it would clash with the decision at which the Committee has already arrived.
  The PRIME MINISTER: I quite appreciate that. The necessities of order compel him to reserve to this House of Commons a privilege which he proposes to deny to all future assemblies. However, that is not the substantial point of the Amendment. The substantial point is this. We propose that legislation approved by the House of Commons in two successive Sessions and rejected in those Sessions by the House of Lords
  1744
  shall, if approved by this House in the third Session, acquire the force of law The Noble Lord says, "No; you must go to the country; there must be a general election." In other words, "You are to spend the first two years of your parliamentary life in passing measures which are rejected by the House of Lords, and then you are to go to the country and ask whether or not they approve of them." That is simply to override and overthrow the purpose and intention of this Bill. The purpose and intention of this Bill is that the will of the House of Commons within the lifetime of a single Parliament shall, subject to the conditions in the Bill, be effective. The Noble Lord's Amendment negatives that proposition, denies the competence of the electors to give effect to their will in the course of a single Parliament, and contravenes the fundamental proposition upon which the Bill is constructed. The Government therefore cannot for a moment consider it.
  Mr. BALFOUR: My Noble Friend pointed out in his speech that he had' carefully avoided touching the Referendum, which, for some reason so far-unknown, appears to be regarded on the other side as inconsistent with true democratic principles. He has confined himself to what the other side think is not wholly inconsistent with democratic principles, namely, a reference to the people at a general election. My Noble Friend suggests that before they override the Second Chamber the Government that attempts to carry out that task should have the mandate of the people, or, at any rate, the approval of the people expressed in the only way which hon. Gentlemen' opposite say is consistent with the principles of representative Government, namely, a general election. I do not know why such an Amendment should be dismissed in such cursory fashion by the Prime Minister.
  Dr. CHAPPLE: The Amendment suggested by the Noble. Lord would necessitate a general election between the second and third passages of the Bill through this House. In that it would conform strictly to the procedure in the Australian Commonwealth. The right hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. Lyttelton) referred to this point this afternoon, when he said that a Dissolution must take place, or might take place, after a joint Session. I pointed out that a joint Session was final—that a Dissolution could not take-place between a joint Session and the

  1745
  signature of the Governor-General if a Bill passed that joint Session. But this general election between the second and third passages of a Bill does not apply to the South African Constitution. The reason is obvious: the term of Parliament in Australia is three years; in South Africa five. The delay in Australia, consequent upon the election, would not greatly prolong the final passage of that measure.
  Lord HUGH CECIL: The Government attached very little importance to Amendments from this side of the House. Their system is perfunctory argument and vigorous Closure. The answer of the
  Prime Minister to our arguments is that the Amendment is contrary to the principle of the Bill. The reply to that is that in that case the principle of the Bill is hopelessly undemocratic. If this Amendment were embodied in the Bill the Bills that the country desired would pass, and the only Bills that would be stopped would be the Bills that the country did not desire to pass.
  Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Clause."
  The Committee divided: Ayes, 219; Noes, 129.

  Division No. 185.]

  AYES.

  [12.10 a.m.

  Abraham, William (Dublin Harbour)

  Fiennes, Hon. Eustace Edward

  Maclean, Donald

  Acland, Francis Dyke

  Fitzgibbon, John

  Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.

  Adamson, William

  Flavin, Michael Joseph

  MacNeill, John Gordon Swift

  Agnew, Sir George William

  France, Gerald Ashburner

  MacVeagh, Jeremiah

  Ainsworth, John Stirling

  Gelder, Sir W. A.

  M'Laren, F. W. S. (Lincs., Spalding).

  Allen, A. A. (Dumbartonshire)

  Gill, A. H.

  M'Laren, Walter S. B. (Ches., Crewe)

  Allen, Charles Peter (Stroud)

  Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford

  Manfield, Harry

  Asquith, Rt. Hon. Herbert Henry

  Goldstone, Frank

  Markham, Arthur Basil

  Baker, H. T. (Accrington)

  Greig, Colonel J. W.

  Marshall, Arthur Harold

  Barnes, George N.

  Guest, Hon. Major C. H. C. (Pembroke)

  Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.)

  Barran, Rowland Hirst (Leeds, N.)

  Gulland, John William

  Meehan, Patrick A. (Queen's Co.).

  Barry, Redmond John (Tyrone, N.)

  Gwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway)

  Millar, James Duncan

  Barton, William

  Hackett, John

  Molloy, Michael

  Beauchamp, Edward

  Hall, Frederick (Normanton)

  Money, L. G. Chiozza

  Bentham, G J.

  Hancock, J. G.

  Montagu, Hon. E. S.

  Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine

  Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose)

  Morrell, Philip

  Black, Arthur W.

  Hardie, J. Keir (Merthyr Tydvil)

  Muldoon, John

  Booth, Frederick Handel

  Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale)

  Munro, Robert

  Bowerman, C. w.

  Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, W.)

  Needham, Christopher T.

  Boyle, Daniel (Mayo, North)

  Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N. E.)

  Neilson, Francis

  Brace, William

  Harwood, George

  Nolan, Joseph

  Brady, P. J.

  Haslam, James (Derbyshire)

  Norton, Captain Cecil W.

  Brocklehurst, William B.

  Havelock-Allan, Sir Henry

  Nugent, Sir Walter Richard

  Buxton, Rt. Hon. Sydney C. (Poplar)

  Haworth, Arthur A.

  O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

  Carr-Gomm, H. W.

  Hayden, John Patrick

  O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)

  Cawley, H. T. (Lancs., Heywood)

  Hayward, Evan

  O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)

  Chancellor, Henry George

  Helme, Norval Watson

  O'Doherty, Philip

  Chapple, Dr. William Allen

  Henry, Sir Charles S.

  O'Dowd, John

  Clancy, John Joseph

  Higham, John Sharp

  Ogden, Fred

  Clough, William

  Hinds, John

  O'Kelly, Edward P. (Wicklow, W.)

  Collins, Godfrey P. (Greenock)

  Hodge, John

  O'Malley, William

  Condon, Thomas Joseph

  Howard, Hon. Geoffrey

  O'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, S.)

  Corbett, A. Cameron

  Hughes, Spencer Leigh

  O'Shaughnessy P. J.

  Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.

  Hunter, William (Lanark, Govan)

  O'Shee, James John

  Cotton, William Francis

  Illingworth, Percy H.

  O'Sullivan, Timothy

  Cowan, W. H.

  John, Edward Thomas

  Palmer, Godfrey Mark

  Crooks, William

  Johnson, W.

  Parker, James Halifax

  Crumley, Patrick

  Jones, Edgar (Merthyr Tydvil)

  Pearce, Robert (Staffs., Leek)

  Cullinan, J.

  Jones, Leif Stratten (Notts, Rushcliffe)

  Pearson, Hon. Weetman H. M.

  Dalziel, Sir James H. (Kirkcaldy)

  Jones, William (Carnarvonshire)

  Pease, Rt. Hon. Joseph A. (Rotherham)

  Davies, Ellis William (Eifion)

  Jones, W. S. Glyn.(T. H'mts, Stepney)

  Phillips, John (Longford, S.)

  Davies, Timothy (Lincs., Louth)

  Jowett, Frederick William

  Pickersgill, Edward Hare

  Dawes, J. A.

  Joyce, Michael

  Pirie, Duncan Vernon

  Delany, William

  Keating, Matthew

  Pointer, Joseph

  Denman, Hon. R. D.

  Kelly, Edward

  Pollard, Sir George H.

  Dillon, John

  Kennedy, Vincent Paul

  Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H.

  Doris, William

  Kilbride, Denis

  Power, Patrick Joseph

  Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness)

  King, Joseph (Somerset, North)

  Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central)

  Duncan, J. Hastings (York, Otley)

  Lambert, George (Devon, S. Molton)

  Primrose, Hon. Neil James

  Edwards, Allen C. (Glamorgan, E.)

  Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade)

  Pringle, William M. R.

  Elibank, Rt. Hon. Master of

  Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, West)

  Raffan, Peter Wilson

  Elverston, Harold

  Lawson, Sir W. (Cumb'rld., Cockerm'th)

  Rea, Rt. Hon. Russell (South Shields)

  Esmonde, Dr. John (Tipperary, N.)

  Levy, Sir Maurice

  Rea, Walter Russell (Scarborough)

  Esmonde, Sir Thomas (Wexford, N.)

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Reddy, Michael

  Falconer, James

  Low, Sir Frederick (Norwich)

  Redmond, John E. (Waterford)

  Fenwick, Charles

  Lundon, Thomas

  Redmond, William (Clare, E.)

  Ferens, Thomas Robinson

  Lyell, Charles Henry

  Richards, Thomas

  Ffrench, Peter

  Lynch, A. A.

  Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)

  Field, William

  Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester)

  Roberts, George H. (Norwich)

  Robertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradford)

  Stanley, Albert (Staffs, N. W.)

  Whyte, A. F.

  Robinson, Sidney

  Strauss, Edward A. (Southwark, West)

  Wilkie, Alexander

  Roche, Augustine (Louth, N.)

  Summers, James Wooley

  Williams, J. (Glamorgan)

  Roche, John (Galway, E.)

  Sutton, John E.

  Williams, Penry (Middlesbrough)

  Rowlands, James

  Taylor, John W. (Durham)

  Wilson, Hon. G. G. (Hull, W.)

  Rowntree, Arnold

  Tennant, Harold John

  Wilson, John (Durham, Mid)

  Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland)

  Ure, Rt. Hon. Alexander

  Wilson, J. W. (Worcestershire, N.)

  Samuel, J. (Stockton)

  Verney, Sir Harry

  Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)

  Samuel, Stuart M. (Whitechapel)

  Walsh, Stephen (Lancs., Ince)

  Winfrey, Richard

  Scanlan, Thomas

  Waring, Walter

  Wood, T. M'Kinnon (Glasgow)

  Scott, A. MacCallum (Glasgow, Bridgeton)

  Warner, Sir Thomas Courtenay

  Seely, Colonel, Rt. Hon. J. E. B.

  Wason, Rt. Hon. E. (Clackmannan)

  Sheehy, David

  Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney)

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr. Dudley Ward and Mr. Wedgwood Benn.

  Simon, Sir John Allsebrook

  White, Sir Luke (York, E. R.)

  Smith, Albert (Lancs., Clitheroe)

  White, Patrick (Meath, North)

  Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.)

  Whitehouse, John Howard

  NOES.

  Anson, Sir William Reynell

  Gibbs, George Abraham

  Newton, Harry Kottingham

  Archer-Shee, Major M.

  Gilmour, Captain J.

  Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield)

  Ashley, Wilfrid W.

  Goldman, C. S.

  O'Neill, Hon. A. E. B. (Antrim, Mid)

  Baird, John Lawrence

  Grant, J. A.

  Orde-Powlett, Hon. W. G. A.

  Baker, Sir Randolf L. (Dorset, N.)

  Greene, Walter Raymond

  Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William

  Baldwin, Stanley

  Gretton, John

  Parkes, Ebenezer

  Banbury, Sir Frederick George

  Guinness, Hon. Walter Edward

  Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington)

  Banner, John S. Harmood.

  Hall, Fred (Dulwich)

  Peel, Capt. R. F. (Woodbridge)

  Barlow, Montague (Salford, S.)

  Hardy, Laurence

  Peel, Hon. W. R. W. (Taunton)

  Barnston, H.

  Helmsley, Viscount

  Pole-Carew, Sir R.

  Barrie, H. T. (Londonderry, N.)

  Henderson, Major H. (Berkshire)

  Pryce-Jones, Col. E. (M'tgom'y B'ghs.)

  Beach, Hon. Michael Hugh Hicks

  Hickman, Col. Thomas E.

  Ratcliff, R. F.

  Benn, Arthur Shirley (Plymouth)

  Hill, Sir Clement L.

  Rice, Hon. Walter Fitz-Uryan

  Benn, Ion Hamilton (Greenwich)

  Hills, John Waller

  Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall)

  Bennett-Goldney, Francis

  Hill-Wood, Samuel

  Rolleston, Sir John

  Bentinck, Lord H. Cavendish

  Hohler, Gerald Fitzroy

  Ronaldshay, Earl of

  Bigland, Alfred

  Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield)

  Rutherford, W. (Liverpool, W. Derby)

  Boscawen, Col. Sackville T. Griffith.

  Horner, Andrew Long

  Sanders, Robert Arthur

  Boyle, W. Lewis (Norfolk, Mid)

  Hunt, Rowland

  Sanderson, Lancelot

  Bridgeman, W. Clive

  Jardine, Ernest (Somerset, E.)

  Smith, Harold (Warrington)

  Bull, Sir William James

  Kebty-Fletcher, J. R.

  Spear, John Ward

  Burn, Colonel C. R.

  Kerr-Smiley, Peter

  Stanier, Seville

  Butcher, John George

  Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement

  Stanley, Hon. G. F. (Preston)

  Carlile, Edward Hildred

  Kirkwood, J. H. M.

  Starkey, John Ralph

  Cassel, Felix

  Lane-Fox, G. R

  Stewart, Gershom

  Castlereagh, Viscount

  Lawson, Hon. H. (T. H'mts., Mile End)

  Sykes, Alan John

  Cator, John

  Locker-Lampson, O. (Ramsey)

  Terrell, Henry (Gloucester)

  Cave, George

  Lockwood, Rt. Hon. Lt.-Col. A. R.

  Thynne, Lord A.

  Cecil, Lord Hugh (Oxford Univ.)

  Long, Rt. Hon. Walter

  Tobin, Alfred Aspinall

  Chaloner, Colonel R. G. W.

  Lowther, Claude (Cumberland, Eskdale)

  Touche, George Alexander

  Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry

  Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. A. (S. Geo. Han. S.)

  Tullibardine, Marquess of

  Clay, Captain H. Spender

  Lyttelton, Hon. J. C. (Droitwich)

  Walker, Col. William Hall

  Clive, Percy Archer

  MacCaw, Wm. J. MacGeagh

  Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid)

  Courthope, George Loyd

  Mackinder, Halford J.

  Wheler, Granville C. H.

  Craig, Captain James (Down, E.)

  Macmaster, Donald

  White, Major G. D. (Lancs., Southport)

  Crichton-Stuart, Lord Ninian

  M'Mordie, Robert

  Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.)

  Dalrymple, Viscount

  Mason, James F. (Windsor)

  Winterton, Earl

  Dickson, Rt. Hon. C. Scott

  Meysey-Thompson, E. C.

  Wood, John (Stalybridge)

  Dixon, C. H.

  Mills, Hon. Charles Thomas

  Worthington-Evans, L.

  Eyres-Monsell, Bolton M.

  Morrison-Bell, Major A. C. (Honiton)

  Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

  Fell, Arthur

  Mount, William Arthur

  Younger, George

  Fleming, Valentine

  Neville, Reginald J. N.

  Forster, Henry William

  Newdegate, F. A.

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Viscount

  Foster, Philip Staveley

  Newman, John R. P.

  Wolmer and Mr. Ian Malcolm.

  Mr. BARNSTON: I beg to move in Subsection (1) to leave out the words "one month" ["one month before the end of the session"] and to insert instead thereof the words "two months."
  The Clause will then run—
  "having been sent up to the House of Lords at least two months before the end of the session."
  I think this is a very important Amendment, and one which can be explained in a very few minutes. If our Second Chamber is not to be a mere farce, and if it is
  1748
  to mean anything at all, some such Amendment as I have suggested ought to be accepted. The Prime Minister said the functions which a Second Chamber can usefully carry out are those of consultation, revision, and delay. This Clause enacts that only one month shall be allowed. Such questions as Home Rule and Welsh Disestablishment are to be thrown at the heads of the House of Lords just at the end of the Session. Take, for example, the case of the Home Rule Bill. A month before the end of the Session the House of Lords, when that Bill might be

  1749
  sent up, might actually not be sitting at all, or they might be occupied with some other measures. To suggest that the Second. Chamber, whose functions are to fee those of consideration, revision, and delay, are within a month to go through the First and Second Reading, and the Committee stage of a Home Rule Bill is hardly treating the matter seriously. I venture to suggest that to send a Bill to another place under such conditions is nothing but ridiculous and a farce.
  The POSTMASTER-GENERAL (Mr. Herbert Samuel): I regret the Government is not able to accept this Amendment, and I regret it more in view of the persuasive and succinct manner in which the hon. Member has moved it. He argued, however, as though the period of one month were the maximum period to be allowed the House of Lords. That, of course, is not so. It is the minimum period of which the House of Lords are assured, and in the cases which he contemplated of long and complicated Bills being sent to the House of Lords, naturally they would be allowed due time in which to consider them. If the period of one month elapsed and it were found the House of Lords had been, and still were, bona fide considering the Bills, then, of course, the Government of the day would necessarily be obliged to postpone the Prorogation. No responsible Government would in the midst of serious and sustained discussion in another House suddenly advise the Prorogation of Parliament. If, on the other hand, we were to accept this Amendment and insert the period of two months in the Bill, great inconvenience might be caused. Supposing Parliament rose in the middle of August, it would mean that no Bill would gain the advantages of this Clause which did not leave this House before the middle of June. It may very frequently happen that a Bill which is not a complete Bill—it need not be a long Bill—may pass the House of Commons in the latter part of June, or even in the middle of July, and the House of Lords would have ample time to consider it before the Session reached its normal close. If this Amendment were accepted, that Bill would be deprived of the advantages of this Clause, or Parliament would have to be kept sitting for two months, although it had no business to transact, and although the Bill had been dealt with by the House of Lords in order that the provisions of this Bill might be fulfilled. I think that is a good reason why, with every goodwill
  1750
  towards an Amendment moved in so brief and cogent a fashion, the Government are unable to accept it.
  Mr. ALFRED LYTTELTON: The Postmaster-General has substantially admitted the case made by my hon. Friend, the case at any rate that for most Bills sent up to the House of Lords two months would not be an excessive time to allow. I think my hon. Friend has succeeded in getting a valuable admission from the Postmaster-General on behalf of the Government, that when Bills are being debated by the House of Lords the Government's intention is to allow them at any rate more than one month, up to two months, and even more provided those discussions are bonâ fide and are serving a useful purpose. I trust the House will take note of that admission. I do not see the cogency of the argument the Postmaster-General made with regard to the date at which Bills left this House. If a Bill be of sufficient gravity and magnitude to demand the special machinery of this Act, surely arrangements should be made by the Government of the day that it should leave this House upon such a date as would enable sufficient time for the House of Lords, in the course of the ordinary Session, to give it adequate time. A very fair estimate could be made by the Government of the day as to what that time should be. I do not see why the House of Lords should be put to the inconvenience of curtailing their discussion simply because the Government have not made arrangements for the Bill to leave this House for proper discussion to take place there.
  Mr. CASSEL: I should like to draw attention to two main points. In the first place under the Bill as it stands Home Rule and Welsh Disestablishment measures might be sent up to the House of Lords during one month, together with other Bills if the Government saw fit. The other point is that if one month is a proper period to allow under Clause 1, obviously there ought to be a longer time under Clause 2. If one month is required for what after all could only be a purely academic discussion on Clause 1, it is perfectly obvious that a month for Clause 2 would be absolutely and entirely insufficient.
  Mr. HARRY LAWSON: I want to draw the attention of the Committee to a most important pledge which has been given by the Postmaster-General, who is acting

  1751
  as Leader of the House. The right hon. Gentleman has said—and we understand him to be a man who weighs his words—that in any case where the House of Lords shows that it is seriously discussing a Bill with a view to reasonable Amendment, this particular limit of time will not be pressed against it. I ask the Committee to. take note of that, and to take it as a pledge from the Government. Although, of course, it has no binding effect in a court of law, still, in the discussion and the consideration of what would happen under this Bill, we are given to understand that the procedure contemplated under the Clause is only reserved for extreme cases. Otherwise, there will be full latitude of serious discussion allowed in another place, and they will not be pressed by the time limit of the Clause. It is most satisfactory to have that admission. It does not meet all we want, but it is a far greater admission than we have ever had before, and I am very glad it should have come from a man whose opinions are so carefully weighed as the Postmaster-General.
  Viscount HELMSLEY: My hon. Friend is more easily pleased than I am. I cannot say I have been very much satisfied with the speech of the Postmaster-General. It seems to me to work in quite a different way. I look at it not only from the point of view of the House of Lords, but also from the point of view of this House, and I say it is going to be singularly inconvenient if while the House of Lords are bonâ fule discussing a Bill towards the end of a Session this House is to be compelled to prolong its Session pending the completion of that discussion. That would be a very awkward situation and it is the evil of the other side if the position contemplated by the Postmaster-General is carried out. You cannot of course bind successive Governments: a pledge given by a Government only endures during the life of that Government. I much prefer the Amendment of my hon. Friend because that makes the Government of the day take care it is to the advantage both of the House of Commons and of the House of Lords to have the Bill sent up in good time. I regard that as far more satisfactory to us and far more fair to the Lords, and therefore I cannot see any valid reason why the Government should not accept this Amendment. After all, it is not a big question of policy, or one which interferes with the principle of the Government
  1752
  Bill. It is merely a matter of convenience of the two Houses. Presumably, it is not desired that the discussion in the House of Lords should be a farce, and it is wished that they should be given ample time, and if two Bills are sent up that they should have an opportunity of considering them. It is also desired to make the Government in this House push forward their business as soon as possible, and therefore I think the Government might accept this Amendment, which would give us some confidence that they are willing to listen to some argument. Hitherto we have had very little confidence of that kind.
  Sir WILLIAM ANSON: I think we ought to be grateful to the Postmaster-General for this admission that he and the Government, of which he is a Member, put this construction upon the Bill, that if they were satisfied that the House of Lords was discussing the measure in an intelligent manner to their satisfaction they will give a liberal construction to the word "month," but, after all, that word will stand part of the Bill, and under it the House of Lords will not be entitled to more than that period. The Prime Minister said that, in regard to a measure which was to come into operation under this Bill, the electors would be informed of everything that could be said for and against it, but would that be the case, because it not unfrequently occurs that under the guillotine a measure goes to the House of Lords with large portions of it undiscussed. It is also possible that a sheaf of Bills discussed under those conditions may be sent Up a month before the end of the Session, and therefore, I think, this Amendment deserves more careful consideration than has been given to it by the Government.
  Mr BAIRD: The Postmaster-General must forgive us if we on this side of the House are a little bit sceptical about the Government being willing to postpone a Prorogation for the House of Lords to have sufficient time to discuss a measure. But we remember that the Parliament Bill of last Session, which was probably the most important Bill which had ever been before Parliament, was thrown before the House of Lords at a period when there certainly was not time for it to be properly discussed. If that was the attitude adopted by the Government to the House of Lords in the past, why should they not do the same thing in the future? The House of Lords is to remain as to its composition

  1753
  substantially as it is now. There is to be no change, except the addition of a few Members, whom we have the pleasure of seeing opposite, and a few others who sat there last Session, but who are not there now, and there is no reason to suppose that the Government will show more consideration for the House of Lords in the future than it has done in the past. There is another reason why I think it is desirable that the House of Lords should be given this two months, and that the Government should put it down in black and white, and not ask the Committee to trust to their generosity. Instead of legislating in Parliament, the Government propose that we should legislate in the street, and it is very desirable, therefore, that this Amendment should be agreed to, because a discussion in this House will not be productive of much information to the people outside, with whom the decision as to the measures rest. Discussion in this House is far from free, and there is no certainty whatever, what with the kangaroo Closure and other devices for stifling debate, that the country will know what the pros and cons of the measure are unless the House of Lords is given full opportunity for discussing it. After all, the methods which obtain in Parliament with a view to eliciting support for measures which are favoured by one side or the other, differ very greatly from the methods favoured in the country. There is the method which the Lord Advocate has made his own, and which has been extensively used. There is no doubt that many electors do not have a clear conception of what they are asked to decide upon.
  The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN (Mr. Whitley): The hon. Member is going back to the discussion of the preceding Amendment.
  Mr. BAIRD: My only reason for reverting to it is that we want to get all we can out of the Bill. I was in hopes that some of the arguments which failed to convince the Government with regard to other
  Amendments might be considered pertinent with regard to this. If the Government desire that the people shall be given a full opportunity to form an opinion with regard to legislation, they can have no objection to securing that the people shall be informed of the pros and cons of the measure. Unless the House of Lords is given a longer period to discuss the measure, I do not see how that is to be possible. It is not possible by discussion in this House, and the Closure is far too often used for it to be possible. In the House of Lords there is no Closure, and there are a great many more experts in regard to all questions than there are in this House. It cannot be doubted that in the normal course of events a man is promoted to the House of Lords when he has served a number of years here, and, if he has been worthy of being listened to in this House, he is probably more worthy to be listened to there. On all grounds, particularly on the ground of giving the people a fair opportunity of knowing the merits of a measure, the Amendment is worthy of support, and I trust the Government will reconsider their decision.
  Mr. MALCOLM: A discussion arose on a similar point on Clause 1 on an Amendment I moved, and the Government said they would look into this point before Report stage. The Amendment was with regard to moving Motions within seven days in the House of Lords. Exactly the same arguments were used by, I think, the Postmaster-General who was then in charge of the Bill. The question was to insert "two months" instead of "one month," and a promise was given that it would be looked into before the Report stage. If I am right in that, it is a reason why the Government should do something of the same nature with respect to Clause 2, but they refuse.
  Question put, "That the words 'one month' stand part of the Clause."
  The Committee divided: Ayes, 193; Noes, 114.

  Division No. 186.]

  AYES.

  [12.42 a.m.

  Abraham, William (Dublin)

  Bentham, George Jackson

  Chapple, Dr. William Allen

  Acland, Francis D. (Camborne)

  Black, Arthur W.

  Clancy, John Joseph

  Adamson, William

  Booth, Frederick Handel

  Clough, William

  Agnew, Sir George William

  Bowerman, Charles W.

  Clynes, John R.

  Allen, Arthur A. (Dumbartonshire)

  Boyle, Daniel (Mayo, North)

  Collins, Godfrey P. (Greenock)

  Allen, Charles Peter (Stroud)

  Brace, William

  Condon, Thomas Joseph

  Baker, Harold T. (Accrington)

  Brocklehurst, William B.

  Corbett A. Cameron

  Barry, Redmond J. (Tyrone, N.)

  Carr-Gomm, H. W.

  Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.

  Barton, William

  Cawley, H. T. (Lancs., Heywood)

  Cotton, William Francis

  Beauchamp, Edward

  Chancellor, Henry George

  Cowan, William Henry

  Crumley, Patrick

  Joyce, Michael

  Pointer, Joseph

  Cullinan, John

  Keating, Matthew

  Pollard, Sir George H.

  Dalziel, Sir James H. (Kirkcaldy)

  Kelly, Edward

  Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H.

  Davies, Timothy (Louth)

  Kennedy, Vincent Paul

  Power, Patrick Joseph

  Dawes, James Arthur

  Kilbride, Denis

  Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central)

  Delany, William

  King, Joseph (Somerset, North)

  Primrose, Hon. Neil James

  Denman, Hon. Richard Douglas

  Lambert, George (South Molton)

  Pringle, William M. R.

  Dillon, John

  Law, Hugh Alexander (Donegal, W.)

  Raffan, Peter Wilson

  Doris, William

  Lawson, Sir Wilfrid (Cockermouth)

  Rea, Rt. Hon. Russell (S. Shields)

  Duncan, J. Hastings (York, Otley)

  Levy, Sir Maurice

  Rea, Walter Russell (Scarborough)

  Edwards, A. C. (Glam., E.)

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Reddy, Michael

  Elibank, Rt. Hon. Master of

  Lough, Rt. Hon. Thomas

  Redmond, John E. (Waterford)

  Elverston, Harold

  Low, Sir Frederick (Norwich)

  Redmond, William Clare, E.)

  Esmonde, Sir T. (Wexford, N.)

  Lundon, Thomas

  Richards, Thomas

  Fenwick, Charles

  Lyell, C. H.

  Roberts, Charles H (Lincoln)

  Ferens, Thomas Robinson

  Lynch, Arthur Alfred

  Roberts, George H. (Norwich)

  Ffrench, Peter

  Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester)

  Robinson, Sidney

  Field, William

  Maclean, Donald

  Roche, John (Galway, East)

  Fiennes, Hon Eustace Edward

  Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.

  Rowlands, James

  Fitzgibbon, John

  MacNeill, John Gordon Swift

  Rowntree, Arnold

  Flavin, Michael Joseph

  MacVeagh, Jeremiah

  Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland)

  France, Gerald Ashburner

  M'Laren, F. W. S. (Linc., Spalding)

  Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees)

  Gelder, Sir William Alfred

  M'Laren, W. S. B. (Crewe)

  Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel)

  Gill, Alfred Henry

  Manfield, Harry

  Scanlan, Thomas

  Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford

  Markham, Arthur Basil

  Scott, A. M'Callum (Bridgeton)

  Goldstone, Frank

  Marshall, Arthur Harold

  Seely, Rt. Hon. Colonel

  Greig, Colonel James William

  Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.)

  Sheehy, David

  Guest, Major (Pembroke)

  Meehan, Patrick A. (Queen's Co.)

  Simon, Sir John Allsebrook

  Gulland, John William

  Millar, Duncan

  Smith, Albert (Clitheroe)

  Gwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway)

  Molloy, Michael

  Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.)

  Hackett, John

  Money, L. G. Chiozza

  Stanley, Albert (Staffs, N. W.)

  Hall, F. (Yorks, Normanton)

  Montagu, Hon. E. S.

  Summers, James Woolley

  Hancock John George

  Morrell, Philip

  Sutton, John E.

  Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose)

  Muldoon, John

  Taylor, John W. (Durham)

  Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale)

  Munro, Robert

  Tennant, Harold John

  Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, West)

  Needham, Christopher Thomas

  Ure, Rt. Hon. Alexander

  Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N. E.)

  Neilson, Francis

  Verney, Sir H.

  Harwood, George

  Nolan, Joseph

  Walsh, Stephen (Lancashire, Ince)

  Havelock-Allan, Sir Henry

  Nugent, Sir Walter Richard

  Waring, Walter

  Haworth, Arthur A.

  O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

  Warner, Sir Thomas Courtenay T.

  Hayden, John Patrick

  O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)

  Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney)

  Hayward, Evan

  O'Doherty, Phillip

  White, Sir Luke (York, E. R.)

  Helme, Norval Watson

  O'Dowd, John

  Whitehouse, John Howard

  Henry, Sir Charles

  Ogden, Fred

  Whyte, Alexander F. (Perth)

  Higham, John Sharp

  O'Kelly, Edward P. (Wicklow, W.)

  Wilkie, Alexander

  Howard, Hon. Geoffrey

  O'Malley, William

  Williams, John (Glamorgan)

  Hughes, Spencer Leigh

  O'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, S.)

  Williams, Penry (Middlesbrough)

  Hunter, William (Lanark, Govan)

  O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

  Wilson, Hon. G. G. (Hull, W.)

  Illingworth, Percy H.

  O'Shee, James John

  Wilson, John (Durham, Mid)

  John, Edward Thomas

  O'Sullivan, Timothy

  Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)

  Johnson, William

  Palmer, Godfrey Mark

  Winfrey, R.

  Jones, Edgar R. (Merthyr Tydvil)

  Parker, James (Halifax)

  Wood, T. M'Kinnon (Glasgow)

  Jones, Leif (Rushcliffe)

  Pease, Rt. Hon. J. A. (Rotherham)

  Jones, Wm. (Carnarvonshire)

  Phillips, John (Longford, S.)

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr. Dudley Ward and Mr. Wedgwood Benn.

  Jones, Wm. S. Glyn- (Stepney)

  Pickersgill, Edward Hare

  Jowett, Frederick William

  Pirie, Duncan V.

  NOES.

  Anson, Sir William Reynell

  Courthope, George Loyd

  Hohler, Gerald Fitzroy

  Archer-Shee, Major Martin

  Craig, Captain James (Down, E.)

  Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield)

  Ashley, Wilfrid W.

  Craig, Norman (Kent, Thanet)

  Horner, Andrew Long

  Baker, Sir Randolf L. (Dorset, N.)

  Crichton-Stuart, Lord Ninian

  Hunt, Rowland

  Baldwin, Stanley

  Dalrymple, Viscount

  Jardine, Ernest (Somerset, East)

  Banner, John S. Harmood-

  Dickson, Rt. Hon. C. S.

  Kebty-Fletcher, J. R.

  Barlow, Montague (Saltord, S.)

  Dixon, Charles Harvey

  Kerr-Smiley, Peter Kerr

  Barrie, H. T. (Londonderry, N.)

  Eyres-Monsell, Bolton, M.

  Kirkwood, John H. M.

  Beach, Hon. Michael Hugh Hicks

  Fleming, Valentine

  Lane-Fox, G. R.

  Benn, Arthur S. (Plymouth)

  Forster, Henry William

  Lawson, Hon. Harry (Mile End)

  Benn, Ian Hamilton (Greenwich)

  Gibbs, George Abraham

  Locker-Lampson, O. (Ramsey)

  Bennett-Goldney, Francis

  Gilmour, Captain John

  Lyttelton, Rt. Hn. A. (S. Geo., Han. S.)

  Bentinck, Lord H. Cavendish-

  Goldman, Charles Sydney

  Lyttelton, Hon. J. C. (Droitwich)

  Bigland, Alfred

  Goldsmith, Frank

  Mackinder, Halford J.

  Boscawen, Col. A. S. T. Griffith.

  Greene, Walter Raymond

  Macmaster, Donald

  Bridgeman, William Clive

  Gretton, John

  M'Mordie, Robert James

  Bull, Sir William James

  Guinness, Hon. Walter Edward

  Malcolm, Ian

  Bure, Col. C. R. (Torquay)

  Haddock, George Bahr

  Mason, James F. (Windsor)

  Carlile, Edward Hildred

  Hall, Fred (Dulwich)

  Meysey-Thompson, E. C.

  Cassel, Felix

  Hardy, Laurence (Kent, Ashford)

  Mills, Hon. Charles Thomas

  Castlereagh, Viscount

  Helmsley, Viscount

  Morrison-Bell, Major A. (Honiton)

  Cator, John

  Henderson, Major H. (Berkshire)

  Mount, William Arthur

  Cave, George

  Hickman, Colonel Thomas E.

  Neville, Reginald J. N.

  Chaloner, Col. R. G. W.

  Hill, Sir Clement L. (Shrewsbury)

  Newman, John R. P.

  Clay, Captain H. H. Spender

  Hills, John Waller (Durham)

  Newton, Harry Kottingham

  Clive, Captain Percy Archer

  Hill-Wood, S. (High Peak)

  Nicholson, Wm. G. (Petersfield)

  1756

  1757

  O'Neill, Hon. A. E. B. (Antrim, Mid.)

  Rutherford, William (West Derby)

  Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid.)

  Orde-Powlett, Hon. W. G. A.

  Sanders, Robert Arthur

  Wheler, Granville C. H.

  Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William

  Smith, Harold (Warrington)

  White, Major G. D. (Lanc., Southport)

  Pease, Herbert P. (Darlington)

  Spear, John Ward

  Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.)

  Peel, Capt. R. F. (Woodbridge)

  Stanier, Beville

  Willoughby, Major Hon. Claud

  Peel, Hon. Wm. R. W. (Taunton)

  Stanley, Major Hon. G. F. (Preston)

  Winterton, Earl

  Pole-Carew, Sir Reginald

  Starkey, John Ralph

  Wolmer, Viscount

  Pryce-Jones, Col, E.

  Stewart, Gershom

  Wood, John (Stalybridge)

  Ratcliff, Major R. F.

  Sykes, Alan John

  Worthington-Evans, L.

  Rice, Hon. Walter Fitz-Uryan

  Tobin, Alfred Aspinall

  Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

  Rolleston, Sir John

  Touche, George A.

  Ronaldshay, Earl of

  Walker, Col. W. H.

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr. Barnston and Mr. Baird.

  Rothschild, Lionel de

  Ward, A. S. (Herts, Watford)

  Question put, and agreed to.

  The CHAIRMAN: Perhaps the hon. Member for Newport (Mr. Stanier) will explain the Amendment which stands on the Paper in his name.
  Mr. STANIER: My Amendment is, "after session" ["before the end of the session"] to insert the words "and moved within seven days in the House of Lords." This Amendment really follows one moved upon Clause 1, and the Postmaster-General undertook to consider the matter between now and Report.
  Mr. HERBERT SAMUEL: It may save time if I state that this Amendment is on all fours with that previously moved to Clause 1 and the undertaking I gave in that case holds good in this.
  The CHAIRMAN: In that case, the Amendment need not be moved.
  Mr. MALCOLM: If the Amendment is not moved the undertaking holds good.
  Mr. HERBERT SAMUEL: Yes.
  Sir WILLIAM BULL: I beg to move to leave out from "sessions" ["House of Lords in each of those sessions"] to "be" ["be presented to His Majesty"] and to insert instead thereof the words "His Majesty may by Order in Council made after the close of the session in which the Bill was rejected a third time direct that the Bill so rejected shall be submitted to a poll of the electors, and thereupon such Bill shall be so submitted in manner provided in the Schedule to this Act, and if the poll results in accordance with the provisions of such Schedule in favour of the Bill it shall."
  Mr. HERBERT SAMUEL: I beg to move, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again."
  Earl WINTERTON: I wish to ask what business will be taken to-morrow. I have no objection to any arrangement made behind the Chair, but private Members' time is now so much infringed that I think these arrangements should
  1758
  be publicly stated to the House. [An HON. MEMBER: "We are sick of it."] I am sure the hon. Member is not more sick of it than we are of listening to his speeches. Personally, I have no affection for the politics or personnel of the Labour party—
  The CHAIRMAN: That observation is entirely irrelevant.
  Earl WINTERTON: May I call attention to the fact, on a point of Order, that the word "insolent" was interjected?
  The CHAIRMAN: I did not hear the word. I ruled yesterday that it is out of order.
  Earl WINTERTON: And may I point out that it was impossible that my words, could be out of order, for I meant to say: "Personally, I have no affection for the politics or personnel of the Labour party, who obviously need sleep, and I do not desire to keep them up."
  The CHAIRMAN: The observation: seemed to me irrelevant.
  Earl WINTERTON: I had not finished my sentence, and I was going to explain that they were not irrelevant—
  The CHAIRMAN: The hon. Member must not dispute my ruling.
  Earl WINTERTON: I was putting forward my reason for not opposing the Motion to report Progress, and it seemed to me a relevant reason for not opposing the Motion. I venture very respectfully, as I am perfectly entitled to do, to protest against the ruling before my sentence-had been finished.
  The CHAIRMAN: The hon. Member is now disregarding my ruling, and I must request him to desist from so doing.
  Earl WINTERTON: I shall bow to your ruling, and shall take formal means of registering my protest by putting a Motion on the subject, which I am perfectly en titled to do. I desire, and it was my

  1759
  original reason for rising, to ask the Government whether they can tell us what it is intended to take for the business tomorrow. I understood it was intended to deal with the question which is embodied in the Amendment on the Paper, the question of the Referendum. I ask the Patronage Secretary, so that the matter may be stated on the floor of the House.
  Mr. HERBERT SAMUEL: The question of the Noble Lord is hardly one that need give rise to controversy. The Government, as well as the Opposition, are very desirous that really important Amendments of controversy on this Bill should, wherever possible, be discussed at convenient hours. As one of the most important subjects we have had to deal with is the application of the Referendum between two Houses, it was by general consent agreed to take that matter as the first Amendment to-morrow, and I think there is a general expectation that it will be disposed of by half-past seven o'clock so that one or two smaller Amendments may be considered before 8.15 o'clock.
  Earl WINTERTON: I desire to thank the right hon. Gentleman for his very courteous reply, which is in striking contradiction to the way we are sometimes treated.
  Sir W. BULL: I should like to know if any other Amendments will be taken before this?
  The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the TREASURY (Master of Elibank): We shall proceed with the hon. Gentleman's Amendment.
  Viscount. HELMSLEY: I think it is a rather sanguine view of the Government that this discussion on this important Amendment would be concluded before S.15 o'clock unless they Closure it.
  Committee report Progress, to sit again to-morrow (Wednesday).
  And, it being after half-past Eleven of the clock upon Tuesday evening, Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER adjourned the House without Question put, pursuant to the Standing Order.
  Adjourned at Two minutes after One o'clock.