Commons Sitting of 15 June 1910

Preamble
The House met at a Quarter before Three of the clock, Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.

PRIVATE BUSINESS.
Private Bills [Lords] (Standing Orders not previously inquired into complied with), Mr. SPEAKER laid upon the Table Report from one of the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, That, in the case of the following Bill, originating in the Lords, and referred on the First Reading thereof, the Standing Orders not previously inquired into, and which are applicable thereto, have been complied with—namely:—
Havant Gas Bill [Lords],
Ordered, That the Bill be read a second time.
Slough Water Bill,
Read the third time, and passed.
Middlesbrough Corporation Bill,
As amended, considered; Amendments made; Bill to be read the third time.
Pontypridd and Rhondda Joint Water Board Bill,—
Rhondda Urban District Council (Tramways Extension, &c.) Bill,
As amended, considered; to be read the third time.
Local Government Provisional Order (No. 13) Bill,—"to confirm a Provisional Order of the Local Government Board relating to Birmingham," presented by Mr. HERBERT LEWIS.

CENSUS [EXPENSES].
Committee to consider of authorising the payment, out of moneys provided by Parliament, of any Expenses incurred for the purpose of the Census under any Acts of the present Session for taking the Census in Great Britain and Ireland (King's Recommendations signified), tomorrow.—[Mr. Burns.]
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS.

  Admiralty and Bournemouth Aviation Races.
  Mr. CROFTasked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether the Admiralty had refused to assist the aviation races at Bournemouth in July by providing a destroyer to patrol the Solent during the principal international race; and, if not, whether the Admiralty could see its way to assist in this manner?
  The FIRST LORD of the ADMIRALTY (Mr. McKenna): I regret that we have not found ourselves able to assist the Bournemouth meeting in the manner proposed.
  Mr. CROFT: Has the right hon. Gentleman considered that this assistance was given in France, and will he reconsider his decision?
  Mr. McKENNA: Yes; but the Admiralty have reasons for not giving assistance.

  Naval Programme (Additional Contingent Ships).
  Mr. MIDDLEMOREasked whether the four additional contingent ships of the 1909–10 programme were laid down on 1st April in accordance with the official promises?
  Mr. McKENNA: No promises that the keels would be laid on 1st April were given. The date for laying down the keel of a ship is a matter for the contractors and not the Admiralty. The contract date of completion in the case of each of the extra four ships of the 1909–10 programme is 1st April, 1912.

  Destroyers (1908–9 Programme).
  Mr. MIDDLEMOREasked whether any destroyer of the 1908–9 programme is yet completed or commissioned?
  Mr. McKENNA: The reply is in the negative.

  Torpedo-Boat Destroyers (Period of Construction).
  Mr. MIDDLEMOREasked what was the average time occupied in the construction of the last twenty torpedo-boat destroyers completed for the British and German navies, respectively, reckoning from the voting of the first instalment of the cost of their construction, from the date of of the order, and from the date of laying down?
  Mr. McKENNA: No information is available as to the dates of ordering and of laying down German destroyers, or any exact information as to the dates on which they are finally considered as completed. In the case of the last twenty destroyers for the Royal Navy, the occurrence of the engineering and shipbuilding strike caused such heavy delays that any comparison sought to be drawn in the time taken in their construction would be purely misleading. The Estimates time for completion of the destroyers of our last three programmes is twenty months, eighteen months, and eighteen months respectively.
  Sir C. KINLOCH-COOKE: Will the right hon. Gentleman inform the House what he means exactly by laying down a ship?
  Mr. McKENNA: The hon. Gentleman refers to a preceding question. This does not arise out of this question.

  Supply (Navy Estimates).
  Lord CHARLES BERESFORDasked the First Lord of the Admiralty if he would inform the House when he intends to take the remaining Naval Votes, namely, Votes 8, 9, 10, and 12; and in what order they would be taken?
  Mr. McKENNA: I regret that I am unable to give the Noble and Gallant Lord any precise date, as the arrangements for the business of the House do not rest with me. The Votes referred to will, however, be placed on the Paper before the end of July.
  Mr. FALLE: Will full facilities be given for discussion or will the closure be applied on these Votes?
  Mr. McKENNA: I am unable to say how much time will be given or how much time will be devoted to any particular Vote.

  Dockyard Workmen (Portsmouth and Devonport).
  Lord CHARLES BERESFORDasked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether he was aware that petitions from dredgermen, skilled and unskilled workmen, and hired workmen in Portsmouth Dockyard have not been answered; and whether he will make inquiries into the matter with a view to sending replies as early as possible, the replies having been promised by the end of April?
  Sir KINLOCH-COOKEalso asked the right hon. Gentleman whether he can now inform the House of the date on which replies may be expected to the petition from Devonport Dockyard?
  Mr. McKENNA: I would refer the Noble and gallant Lord, and also the hon. Member for Devonport, who has a similar question on the Paper, to the reply given yesterday to the hon. Member for the Barnard Castle Division, in which I explained how it is that the replies have not yet been issued, and regretted the delay that has taken place.

  Breaking-up British Ships (Employment of Foreigners).
  Mr. RIDLEYasked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether his attention had been called to a case which came before the Rochester magistrates on Tuesday, 7th June, in which a Dutchman named Van Drunnen, in the employ of a Dutch firm of shipbreakers engaged in breaking-up His Majesty's ship "Anson," was fined 2s. 6d. and 15s. costs for assisting British bluejackets to improperly absent themselves from duty at Chatham Dockyard by rowing them across the river in his boat; and whether he would give instructions that in future when any British ships were to be broken up the work should be given to British hands?
  Mr. McKENNA: The answer to the first part of the question is in the negative. It would not appear that any stipulation such as that suggested in the second part of the question would have any effect in the prevention of such an occurrence as that referred to in the first part of the question, and no additional restriction of that nature is proposed.
  Mr. RIDLEY: Will the right hon. Gentleman give instructions when His Majesty's ships are to be broken up that they will only be sold to firms employing British labour?
  Mr. McKENNA: I could not give any instructions of that kind, and we should not be able to enforce any such condition.

  Admiralty Contracts (Fair Wages Clause).
  Mr. CHARLES DUNCANasked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether he could now state the result of the inquiries into the alleged violation of the Fair Wages Clause in the wages paid to certain workmen employed on painting work and cork dusting by the Fairfield Shipbuilding

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  Company on His Majesty's ship "Glasgow" and some torpedo boats under construction, and by Messrs. Beardmore, of Clydebank, in the wages paid to certain workmen engaged in painting work and cork dusting on His Majesty's ship "Gloucester"?
  Mr. McKENNA: The inquiries into the statements brought to my notice by the hon. Gentleman in these questions are not yet completed.

  "The Truth About the Navy." (Ships' Libraries).
  Mr. MIDDLEMORE (for Mr. Meysey-Thompson)asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether he has read the book styled "The Truth about the Navy" which was issued by Admiralty Order to the men's libraries on His Majesty's Fleet in 1906; whether he is aware that it contains matter of a political character, also sentiments with regard to a friendly nation that might cause irritation; whether he is aware that it contains statements that amount to a defence of Admiralty policy, on which there has been much public controversy; and whether, looking to the fact that these books have been issued to some fleets and not to others, he will order the immediate recall of all these books from the ships' libraries of all the vessels in the Navy?
  Mr. McKENNA: I believe I read the paper-bound pamphlet referred to in the question two or three years ago, but I have not seen it since, and I am unable to recollect whether it "contains matter of a political character or sentiments with regard to a friendly nation which might cause irritation." As I have no reason to doubt that the title of the pamphlet accurately represents its contents, the statements therein would amount to a defence of Admiralty policy. I do not think the matter is of sufficient importance to justify a consideration of the question whether it should be recalled from ships' libraries.

  Trinidad Railways.
  Mr. POINTERasked the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether, since oil had been found in large quantities in the district, it had been thought practicable to continue at once the San Fernando—Siparia Railway in a westerly direction through the Morne L'Enfer reserve, to a point on the Cap de Ville— Erin Road, about midway between the seas or even further west; and whether
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  there was any scheme to accomplish this at present under consideration?
  The UNDER-SECRETARY of STATE for the COLONIES (Colonel Seely): This matter has engaged the attention of the Colonial Government, but was dropped last year for financial reasons. The Secretary of State has not heard that the project has been revived.
  Mr. POINTERasked the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies if he can state the cause of the continued delay in the commencement of the construction of the various railway lines in Trinidad; whether he is now in a position to state the estimated cost of construction, respectively, of the Tabaquite Rio Clara and the San Fernando—Siparia Railways, and in what particulars the present estimated costs differ, if at all, from previous estimates; what has caused the difference; and whether any additional cost has been incurred owing to surveys being taken in directions not authorised?
  Colonel SEELY: Some time has been occupied in discussion of the manner in which construction should be organised and controlled, and of certain legal questions in connection with the extension from San Fernando to Siparia. The general manager of the Trinidad Government Railways is now on his way to England to discuss plans and estimates with the consulting engineers. The estimates for the cost of construction which have lately been approved by the Legislative Council are £123,708 for the line from Tabaquite to Rio Clara and £141,891 for the line from San Fernando to Siparia. These sums, amounting to £265,599, are in excess of the rough estimate of £225,000 which was approved by the Council in March, 1908, and the difference is due to the more exact knowledge of the country to be traversed which has been acquired by the surveys made in the meantime, and to the alteration which it was found necessary to make in the route of the Rio Clara line, in the circumstances stated in my answer to a question by my hon. Friend on 3rd November last. In regard to the last part of the present question I would refer my hon. Friend to the answer given by me to another question on the same date.

  Port-of-Spain Post Office.
  Mr. POINTERasked the Under-Secretary for the Colonies whether he was aware that various small improvements

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  lately introduced in the working of the Port-of-spain post office have been of little use because their introduction has not been made known; whether he will take steps to remedy this omission on the part of the local officials; whether it has come to his knowledge that the pillarboxes of Port-of-Spain are largely of the nature of traps for the unwary, a letter posted in one of them at 11 a.m. not being generally delivered till the next day; and, if not, will he inquire into the matter?
  Colonel SEELY: The Secretary of State has received no information regarding the matters to which my hon. Friend refers, but he has no doubt that any representations which may be made to the Colonial Post Office will receive attention, and that any defects which may exist will, if possible, be remedied.

  Trinidad Savings Bank.
  Mr. POINTERasked the Under-Secretary for the Colonies whether he had received any complaints regarding the work of the clerks in the Port-of-Spain branch of the Trinidad Savings Bank; whether he could say upon whose authority they enforced a rule that money deposited must not be withdrawn, wholly or partly, before a month has elapsed, and that depositors are not to withdraw money more than once in a month; and, if the matter had not already claimed his attention, would he cause enquiry to be made?
  Colonel SEELY: The Secretary of State has not received any complaints regarding the work of the clerks in the Port-of-Spain branch of the Trinidad Savings Bank; nor has he heard of the rule referred to; but he will cause enquiries to be made.

  Governor of Trinidad (West India Committee).
  Mr. POINTERasked the Under-Secretary for the Colonies whether Sir George Ruthven Le Hunte, Governor of Trinidad, is a vice-president of the West India Committee; and, if so, whether he will consider the advisability of not allowing him to hold such an office in view of the necessity of preserving the impartiality incumbent on a governor in a Crown Colony?
  Colonel SEELY: Sir George Le Hunte is not a vice-president of the West India Committee.

  Euphrates Delta (Disturbances).
  Mr. REESasked the Secretary for Foreign Affairs whether he could give the House any information regarding the recent disturbances in the Euphrates delta; and whether the position of the Sheikh of Koweit had been injuriously affected by any of the reported or unreported hostilities between the Arab tribes at the head of or along the southern shore of the Persian Gulf?
  The UNDER-SECRETARY of STATE for FOREIGN AFFAIRS (Mr. McKinnon Wood): Some hostilities have occurred between the forces of the Sheikh of Koweit aided by Bin Saoud and those of Sheikh Sadur of the Muntafik tribe, after which the former retired. We have no information to show that the position of the Sheikh of Koweit has been injuriously affected by these occurrences.

  Labour Exchanges (Staff).
  Lord BALCARRES (for Mr. Douglas Hall)asked what was the number of persons on the staff of the newly-created Labour Exchanges who were previously members of the Civil Service and the number of persons appointed by private recommendation; whether those persons who were not previously members of the Civil Service passed any examination before being appointed; and in how many cases appointments were made as the reward of political services?
  The PRESIDENT of the BOARD of TRADE (Mr. Buxton): Fifteen persons of the rank of manager of Labour Exchanges or above that rank were previously members of the Civil Service. No appointments were made on private recommendation only, though testimonials from private individuals as to character and ability were of course considered. No examination was held, but most of the managers were appointed on the recommendation of a committee presided over by the First Civil Service Commissioner. Similarly, the more important women's appointments were made on the advice of a committee with the same chairman.
  Lord BALCARRES: Are there no examinations whatever for appointments?
  Mr. BUXTON: There is no examination in the ordinary Civil Service sense of the term, though applicants are examined as to their qualifications.
  Mr. KEIR HARDIE: Are any of the higher appointments in the first rank made from the ranks of the Civil Service?
  Mr. BUXTON: In the first part of my answer I said fifteen persons were recommended who were previously members of the Civil Service.
  Sir JOHN RANDLESasked the President of the Board of Trade, whether steps had been taken to open a Labour Exchange at Workington; and, if so, about what date it would commence its business?
  Mr. BUXTON: Steps are now being taken to open a Labour Exchange at Workington. It is not possible, at present, to give a date when the exchange will be able to commence business.
  Sir JOHN RANDLESasked the President of the Board of Trade whether he had found it possible to make it generally known that persons desiring employment need not attend personally at labour exchanges, but might register through the post; if not, would he take such steps as would make it known?
  Mr. BUXTON: Applicants for employment residing more than three miles from an exchange are, as was stated in my printed answer to my hon. Friend's question dated 25th April, entitled to register through the post. Applicants living within three miles of an exchange must register in person. This procedure is prescribed by the General Regulations for Labour Exchanges made in pursuance of Section 2 of the Labour Exchanges Act, 1909, and laid before Parliament. I considered the point, but it did not appear to me that any special announcement on the point raised by the hon. Member was necessary.
  Sir CLEMENT KINLOCH-COOKEasked how many of the appointments made in connection with the Labour Exchanges Act were the result of open competition; how many appointments in all have been made; and what is the aggregate amount to be paid away in salaries on the present basis?
  Mr. BUXTON: As I have already stated in the House over 20,000 applications were received from the public for posts under the Labour Exchanges Act. Of these applicants, about 600 altogether have been appointed. The salaries of the staff already appointed amount in the aggregate to £64,344 a year. As regards the other points raised I may refer to the
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  answer just given to the hon. Member for the Isle of Wight.
  Sir C. KINLOCH-COOKE: Is it in future to be the policy of the Government to abandon the system of open competition, and to substitute for it that of nomination?
  Mr. BUXTON: Oh, no.
  Mr. WEDGWOOD: Will the appointments to these Labour Exchanges be made in the ordinary Civil Service manner, after examination?
  Mr. BUXTON: I have already explained in reply to an earlier question the method in which they have been appointed.
  Mr. WEDGWOOD: I am asking about future appointments to these Labour Exchanges, whether they will be made from the Civil Service after examination?
  Mr. BUXTON: I do not think there is any proposal to alter the present system of appointments. As far as we can judge it has worked well, and we have a very efficient staff.

  Cattle Disease (Argentina).
  Mr. M'ARTHURasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Agriculture whether he would state what information he had received relative to a new outbreak of cattle disease in Argentina?
  The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the BOARD of AGRICULTURE (Sir E. Strachey): The Board have received official information that foot-and-mouth disease exists in the provinces of Corrientes and Entre Rios, in the territory of Chaco, and in the zone north of Santa Fe.
  Mr. M'ARTHURasked whether, having regard to the recent and further prospective rise in the price of meat and the hardship thereby inflicted upon the great mass of consumers, the Board can relax any of their restrictions upon the importation of cattle into the United Kingdom, whether for slaughter at the port of discharge or for store purposes?
  Sir E. STRACHEY: The importation of cattle into this country is already allowed by the Board in all cases in which the statutory conditions designed to prevent the introduction of animals affected with foot-and-mouth disease are satisfied. The requirement that imported cattle shall be slaughtered at the port of landing is a

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  statutory one, and the Board have no power to relax it. I may add that I do not believe that the rise in the price of beef is due to the exclusion of Argentine cattle for slaughter at the ports.

  Acetone (Government Supply).
  Mr. CHARLES BATHURSTasked the Secretary to the Treasury, as representing the Office of Woods and Forests, whether, in view of the possibility, in the event of war with one of the chief manufacturing countries, of a shortage in the supply of acetone, a necessary medium in the manufacture of cordite and other Government explosives, the difficulties inherent in its profitable production by private manufacturers, the amount of second-rate timber and of coppice in the Royal forests suitable for conversion into this product and not otherwise easily realisable, and the necessity for the development of woodland industries comparable with those existing in Germany, Belgium, and other Continental countries, His Majesty's Commissioner of Woods will, with the concurrence of the Treasury, the War Office, and the Admiralty, set up, either in the Forest of Dean or the New Forest, a factory for the manufacture of acetone in sufficient quantities to meet all national requirements?
  The FINANCIAL SECRETARY to the TREASURY (Mr. Hobhouse): The Commissioner of Woods brought this matter to my notice, and he is at my suggestion making inquiries into the subject.
  Mr. MUSPRATT: Is there any real justification for the statement that the difficulties inherent in the production by private manufacturers are insuperable?
  Mr. HOBHOUSE: I am afraid I am not sufficiently skilled to answer the question.

  Crown Land (Inclosures).
  Mr. CHARLES BATHURSTasked whether it was proposed, in accordance with previous practice and custom, to appoint local Commissioners to formally authorise the contemplated further inclosures of Crown land for the purpose of making new timber plantations in the Forest of Dean, or whether His Majesty's Commissioners of Woods proposed henceforth to inclose lands hitherto uninclosed up to the legal limit of 11,000 acres without any such authority?
  Mr. HOBHOUSE: It is not intended to make any new inclosures or new plantations, but it is proposed to reinclose existing plantations which have been thrown open in time past until the legal limit of 11,000 acres is reached; and as soon as the actual measurement of the areas to be reinclosed has been ascertained Local Commissioners will be appointed in the usual way for the purpose of authorising the reinclosures.

  Wireless Stations (Staff).
  Sir CLEMENT KINLOCH-COOKEasked the Postmaster-General whether it has been decided what position on the establishment the staff at present employed at wireless stations are to occupy when transferred to the Post Office service; and whether he will inform the House how the scale of pay at the wireless stations will be determined, and in what way it is proposed to recruit the staff for these positions?
  The POSTMASTER-GENERAL (Mr. Herbert Samuel): The matter is receiving my careful consideration, but I am not yet in a position to make a statement on the subject.

  King Edward's Funeral Procession.
  Mr. JAMES HOPEasked the First Commissioner of Works whether it would have been competent for the Office of Works on their own responsibility to erect stands in the Royal parks or in front of Government buildings on the route to enable Members of both Houses of Parliament to view the funeral procession of His late Majesty?
  The FIRST COMMISSIONER of WORKS (Mr. Harcourt): No doubt it would have been within the competence of the Office of Works, but it was not considered advisable.

  Motor-driven Vehicles (Mudguards).
  Mr. REESasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he will consider the propriety of requiring the provision in the case of motor-driven vehicles of front mudguards of such a character that vehicles to which they are fitted would push in front instead of overrunning obstacles before them?
  The SECRETARY of STATE for the HOME DEPARTMENT (Mr. Churchill): The question of imposing such a regulation on motor vehicles generally is one which comes within the province of the Local Government Board. But if my hon.

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  Friend is referring to motor omnibuses licensed in the Metropolitan Police District, the answer is that the Commissioner of Police has from the outset impressed upon proprietors the importance of providing a suitable guard, and has intimated to them that when one is available certain concessions will be made as to the minimum road clearance of these vehicles. No satisfactory device, however, of the nature indicated has yet been submitted to him.
  Mr. REES: To whom should I address a question regarding taxi-cabs?
  Mr. CHURCH1LL: I will certainly do my best to give an answer. I will consider the point.

  Employment of Children By-laws (Ilford).
  Mr. JAMES PARKERasked whether the employment of children by-laws proposed by the Urban District Council of Ilford have yet been sanctioned?
  Mr. CHURCHILL: I have only recently received the council's reply to the letter sent to them by the Department in September asking for further information and explanation as to certain exceptional provisions contained in their by-laws. The council's observations are receiving my careful consideration.

  Law Guarantee, Trusts, and Accident Society.
  Sir C. KINLOCH-COOKEasked the Attorney-General whether he will take steps in the public interest to cause a full inquiry to be made into the circumstances attending the failure of the Law Guarantee, Trusts, and Accident Society?
  The SOLICITOR-GENERAL (Sir Rufus Isaacs): It is not within the power of the Attorney-General to order such an inquiry as is described in the question. I understand this society is in voluntary liquidation under the supervision of the court, which, in my view, would not confer upon the court any power to compel such an inquiry unless the order for voluntary liquidation of the society showed there existed prima facie evidence of fraud against the individuals who could be made responsible for its management and control.
  Mr. BOTTOMLEY: Will the hon. and learned Gentleman consider the question of instituting criminal proceedings against the legal luminaries more or less respon-
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  sible for the management of this company and of taking the opinion of Sir Horace Avory on the subject?

  Poplar Board of Guardians (Surcharge).
  Mr. STRAUSSasked if the Local Government Board has recently remitted a surcharge made by the district auditor of the Board upon Mr. George Lansbury and other members of the Poplar Board of Guardians in respect of an excess expenditure upon clothing which was proved to be wasteful and illegal; and, if so, what were the grounds of the Board's decision?
  The PRESIDENT of the LOCAL GOVERNMENT BOARD (Mr. Burns): In the case to which the hon. Member refers, the auditor found that certain articles of clothing purchased by the guardians from the Central (Unemployed) Body for London had cost more than the amount for which they could have been obtained from manufacturers who had submitted tenders. He surcharged the excess upon four of the guardians who voted for the purchase. The effect of the action of the guardians in the matter was to assist the work of the Central (Unemployed) Body for London at the expense of the ratepayers of Poplar, which, in my opinion, was not justifiable, but as there was no question that the persons surcharged had acted otherwise than in good faith, I came to the conclusion that, though the surcharge was lawfully made, it was equitable to relieve those persons of the obligation to pay the amount surcharged. I intimated, however, that I should not be prepared to remit any future similar surcharge in the guardians' accounts.

  Local Authorities (Surcharges).
  Mr. STRAUSSasked how many surcharges have been made during the past three years by the Local Government Board or its auditors upon members of local authorities; and to what extent have such surcharges been enforced or remitted?
  Mr. BURNS: I am unable to give the total number of surcharges made by the district auditors on members of local authorities; but as regards cases in which appeals were made to the Board against such surcharges, the facts are that during the past three years 998 surcharges were remitted by the Board and 165 were confirmed and not remitted. In the latter cases, and all those in which appeals were not made, the surcharges would be enforced by the auditors.

  Rearrangement of Assizes.
  Mr. CARLILEasked whether it is proposed by the Treasury that Assizes shall be rearranged; and, if so, whether care will be taken to avoid the delay to litigants and the inconvenience and loss to jurors and witnesses likely to arise from any interference with the present circuit system?
  Sir RUFUS ISAACS: The Government has not yet arrived at any decision in regard to the rearrangement of Assizes, nor has any definite proposal been formulated at present, although various plans are under consideration. In any case, the object of any change will be to diminish delay to litigants and inconvenience and loss to jurors and witnesses. Full care will be taken to accomplish that object.
  Mr. CARLILE: May I ask whether ample opportunity will be given to the local authorities specially interested to make representations, and to be fully consulted before any decision is reached?
  Sir RUFUS ISAACS: I understand that such opportunity is being given. I have no doubt it will be given.

  Rural Education Conference.
  Mr. CHARLES BATHURSTasked the President of the Board of Education whether, in accordance with the memorandum of arrangement between the Board of Education and the Board of Agriculture in respect of agricultural education issued in September, 1909, and iii compliance with the assurance given by him, the minute constituting the Rural Education Conference will now be published without further delay, so that the conference may commence its work at an early date; and, if not, what is the cause of the prolonged deferment of its publication?
  The PRESIDENT of the BOARD of EDUCATION (Mr. Runciman): I am informed by my right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Agriculture that invitations to appoint representatives were issued on 15th January to the various associations and bodies whom it was desired should be represented on the Conference. The last of the replies to these invitations were not received till the 9th of this month. My right hon. Friend and I now hope to be in a position to make the promised announcement in the course of a few days.

  INCOME TAX.
  Mr. GIBSON BOWLESasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether the Commissioners of Customs and Excise have power to require from a taxpayer who has duly paid his Income Tax to a tax collector the payment of such tax a second time in case default has been made in its payment to the Commissioners by the tax collector; and have they in fact so required it?
  Mr. HOBHOUSE: No, sir.
  Mr. BOWLESasked whether he will state, for the information of those upon whom notices have been served to make income returns for Super-tax, or will he refer specifically to the Act or Acts and the sections thereof which state, what the precise manner is in which income is estimated for the purposes of exemptions or abatements under the Income Tax Acts; and will he direct that in future a full, plain, and unambiguous statement of that manner shall accompany all notices for a return of income for Super-tax?
  Mr. HOBHOUSE: I may refer to Sections 163, 164, and 190 (Schedule G) No. XVII. of the Act 5 and 6 Vic, c. 35. I may remind my hon. Friend that instructions on the point accompanying the form of return, but my right hon. Friend will be happy to consider any suggestion for their improvement.
  Mr. BOWLES: May I ask the right hon. Gentleman to reply to the second part of the question?
  Mr. HOBHOUSE: I do not know whether my right hon. Friend will question the fact that they are unambiguous at the present moment.
  Mr. BOWLESasked, in view of the fact that there is no machinery provided by the Income Tax Acts empowering the Commissioners of Customs and Excise to receive taxes direct, will His Majesty's Government consider the expediency of establishing such machinery as will enable taxpayers to pay their taxes direct to the Commissioners, instead of by the circuitous method of payment through collectors of taxes, of whom three are recorded last year to have made default and fled the country?
  Mr. HOBHOUSE: My right hon. Friend does not think it would be desirable to adopt any alternative method of

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  payment such as that suggested by my hon. Friend, which he is advised would lead to considerable delay and multiplication of labour.
  Mr. BOWLESasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer, in view of the fact that Commissioners of Income Tax, as well as inspectors, surveyors, assessors, and collectors, make oath that they will not disclose any particular contained in any schedule or statement excepting to such persons only who shall be sworn to the due execution of the Act, and where necessary for the purposes of the Act with respect to any duty charged by the Act, will he state whether in fact disclosures have been and are made to officers of the Estate Duty Office by Income Tax officials sworn as aforesaid, and is it a fact that these Estate Duty officials are not so sworn; and, if so, will he prohibit in future any such infraction of the law and of the oaths of Income Tax officials as is involved in such disclosures?
  Mr. HOBHOUSE: The reply to the first and second parts of the question is in the affirmative. With regard to the third part, I may refer to the reply given in the House of Commons to the hon. Member for Norwood on 6th December, 1906, by the then Chancellor of the Exchequer.
  Mr. BOWLES: Would the right hon. Gentleman be good enough to say what that reply was which was given four years ago?
  Mr. HOBHOUSE: There were particular reasons why my hon. Friend should have occasion to remember that reply, because it was given to a relative of his who was then a Member of this House, and I thought that possibly the hon. Member would have domestic opportunities of informing himself. The answer was as follows:—" The Board of Inland Revenue do not consider that any use they may make of Income Tax returns within their own Department and for their own use constitutes a disclosure of such returns within the meaning of the provisions of the law relating to secrecy in Income Tax matters. Care is taken, however, that only responsible officers should have cognisance of such matters."
  Mr. BOWLES: Do I understand that it is a fact that these officers constantly violate their own oaths?
  Mr. HOBHOUSE: I must have notice of that question.
  Mr. BALDWINasked by what authority I the repayment branch of the Board of Inland Revenue have reversed their practice of allowing repayment of Income Tax on single premiums in purchase of life insurance policies?
  Mr. HOBHOUSE: Under the authority of the Commissioners of Inland Revenue.
  Mr. GIBSON BOWLES: I beg to ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer a question, of which I have given him private notice, whether, in view of the fact that Section 72 (2) of the Finance 1909–10 Act only requires a return from persons chargeable with Super-tax upon whom notice is served in manner prescribed by regulations; of the fact that, although the regulations were presented in dummy to this House on 8th June, no copy, or sight of them, has hitherto been obtainable by any Member of the House; and of the further fact that any of these Regulations may be annulled upon Address to His Majesty by either House of Parliament within forty days after they have been laid before it, can he explain why these Super-tax notices have been served so early as 4th May, and a return of them required by 1st June, although the regulations in question were not presented to this House until 8th June; and, although until the expiration of the forty days, during which they may be annulled, they do not become final and valid? And seeing that without access to these regulations the taxpayer cannot know how to fill up the return issued under them, will he direct that no such return shall be required before a reasonable time has elapsed after the regulations have thus become finally authoritative and valid?
  The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER (Mr. Lloyd George): These regulations were presented in full and not in dummy on 8th June. They are already available in the Vote Office.
  Mr. BOWLES: They were not last night.
  Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: They are in the Vote Office I understand. Undoubtedly a great deal of inconvenience has been caused, by circumstances over which the Government have certainly no control, in the matter of the collection of taxes. This is one of them. It is an inconvenience not merely to the tax collector, but to the taxpayer as well, and so far we have been doing our best in a very trying position.
  Mr. BOWLES: With reference to the last part of my question will the right hon. Gentleman undertake that until these regulations are in the hands of the taxpayer they shall not be informed that they are bound to make the return? Indeed, I think they are not. Will the right hon. Gentleman direct that the returns shall not be enforced until the taxpayer has an opportunity of seeing the regulations?
  Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: I think my hon. Friend had better console himself with the fact that, as I understand, the whole of this question will be raised in the course of the Debate on the Consolidated Fund Bill, and therefore I think we had better leave the discussion of this matter over.
  Mr. BOWLES: I beg to ask Mr.Speaker, in view of the fact that certain regulations by the Commissioners of Inland Revenue for the serving of notices for Super-tax are stated in the Votes and Proceedings to have been presented to this House on 8th June; of the fact that by Section 93 of the Finance (1910) Act an Address may be presented to His Majesty within the next subsequent forty days after these regulations are laid before it, praying that any of them may be annulled, and of the further fact that neither on the Table nor in the Library is any copy of these regulations yet to be obtained, can he state for the information of the House when the prescribed forty days will begin to run?
  Mr. SPEAKER: The prescribed forty days begin to run from the time the notice is effective; that is to say, when there is a reasonable opportunity for Members of the House to avail themselves of it and make themselves acquainted with it. The mere laying of a single Paper on the Table of the House with orders to have it printed does not bring effective notice to the House. I have already pointed out to the Departments that it is their duty to lay two Papers, or, rather, two copies, of the same Paper, one of which may be placed in the Library while the other can be sent to the printer. The trouble arose in this case from the fact that the Treasury, on 8th June, only laid one Paper, and as that was ordered to be printed, it had to go to the printer, and therefore no copy was available in the Library. If the public Departments carried out what I have already notified to them as being the proper course, namely, that two copies of every paper should be laid, then there would be
  1316
  no difficulty, for while one copy could be sent to the printer, the other would be available in the Library for the use of Members.
  Mr. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN: Would the Prime Minister have an intimation sent to the Departments calling attention to the ruling which Mr. Speaker has made?
  The PRIME MINISTER (Mr. Asquith): Certainly.

  Boycotting in Ireland.
  Mr. LONSDALEasked the Chief Secretary for Ireland whether minor boycotting had been denned as attempts to boycott where the effects are inappreciable; and whether he would state the number of persons comprised in this category throughout Ireland who are refused the necessaries of life in the districts in which they reside, and who are compelled to procure them from a distance?
  The CHIEF SECRETARY for IRELAND (Mr. Birrell): The definition given by the hon. Member is not complete, but it may be taken as approximately correct. The Inspector-General of Constabulary, under whose direction the returns are compiled from reports furnished by the local police, has no reason to believe that there are any cases returned under the heading of minor boycotting in which the persons affected are refused the necessaries of life in the districts in which they reside and are compelled to procure them from a distance.
  Mr. LONSDALEasked the Chief Secretary whether the landowner who is referred to in the footnote (b) to the Return of boycotting cases presented to this House on the motion of the hon. Member for Cambridge University (No. 116 of 1909) is Mr. C. N. Clarke, of Holycross, Thurles; and, if so, will he explain the statement in that footnote that Mr. Clarke is now only boycotted in a minor degree, in view of the facts given in evidence at the recent trial before the Court of King's Bench in Dublin?
  Mr. BIRRELL: Mr. Clarke is the landowner referred to. I am informed by the constabulary authorities that in the early part of 1909 he and the men in his employment were very severely boycotted. In or about April of that year there was a distinct improvement; the boycotting of Mr. Clarke's men ceased, and it was understood that the severity of the boycotting in his own case had been considerably relaxed. In these circumstances it was

  1317
  stated that at the date of the Return, the 22nd April, 1909, Mr. Clarke was boycotted in a minor degree. In the following June, however, it was ascertained that Mr. Clarke was still considerably, but not completely, boycotted.
  Mr. LONSDALE: Does the right hon. Gentleman consider that when twelve policemen have to be stationed in the district Mr. Clarke is being boycotted in a minor degree?
  Mr. BIRRELL: No, Sir, I do nothing of the kind, but just at the moment when the return was made, Mr. Clarke's case was very considerably ameliorated. However, it was only a temporary improvement, and a short time afterwards it became clear that he was severely boycotted.

  Inspector of Lunatics (Ireland).
  Mr. HUGH BARRIEasked whether it is in contemplation to fill the post about to be vacated by Sir George P. O'Farrell, inspector of lunatics, by the appointment of a candidate who is thoroughly conversant by training and experience with the administration of lunatic asylums and the practical treatment of the insane?
  Mr. BIRRELL: Yes, Sir.

  Veto Conference.
  Mr. MARTINasked the Prime Minister whether, in any conference that may be entered into with the Opposition as to the House of Lords' question, the Government propose to commit the Liberal party to any change in their present announced policy without first submitting such change to their supporters in the House of Commons?
  The PRIME MINISTER: It would be useless for the Government to enter into any such conference unless they could rely —as I believe they can—upon the confidence of their supporters in the House of Commons.

  Explosives (Available Supply).
  Mr. CHARLES BATHURSTasked the Prime Minister whether, seeing that acetone is indispensable as a solvent in the process of manufacture of cordite, gun cotton, and other Government explosives, he will state what is the available supply at present in this country; to what extent, and where, is it being manufactured in Great Britain; what proportion of the supply required for naval and military purposes is derived from other, and
  1318
  what, countries; and whether, in the event of war with any of these countries, the Government are satisfied that an adequate supply can be obtained and maintained from other, and, if so, what sources.
  The SECRETARY of STATE for WAR (Mr. Haldane): It must not be assumed that acetone is indispensable in the manufacture of cordite. It would not be to the public interest to give the particulars asked for, but the hon. Member may rest assured that the subject is constantly in view and that adequate steps have been taken to secure a sufficient supply of acetone for an emergency. There is no present intention of starting a Government factory.
  Mr. CHARLES BATHURST: Are we to assume from the answer of the right hon. Gentleman that cordite can be manufactured without the use of acetone?
  Mr. HALDANE: Yes. There is what is known as the wet process which is adopted by some of the manufacturers whom we employ. We use acetone in Government factories because it is very convenient, but we are not by any means absolutely dependent upon it.
  Mr. PRETYMAN: Has any of the cordite which has passed a satisfactory test for naval service been made without acetone?
  Mr. HALDANE: I do not wish it to be taken as a final answer, but very strong impression is that a large quantity made by the wet process has been used.
  Mr. PRETYMAN: Do the right hon. Gentlemen and the Government realise the intense importance of this matter?
  Mr. HALDANE: Yes, of course.
  Lord CHARLES BERESFORD: Is cordite made without acetone as satisfactory as cordite made with acetone?
  Mr. HALDANE: There is a great controversy as to which is the better process. At Waltham the acetone process is the one we use, and we have a large reserve of acetone, but we are not dependent on that process. We can make it without acetone. Cordite is made by certain of the leading manufacturers by what I have described as the wet process.

  Resident Magistrates' Qualifications (Ballinasloe).
  Mr. FELL (for Mr. Mitchell-Thomson)asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland

  1319
  whether Mr. Patrick Sarsfield Brady, of Belfast, has been appointed resident magistrate for county Galway, to be stationed at Ballinasloe; and, if so, whether one of Mr. Brady's qualifications for the post was that he was president of the West Belfast executive of the United Irish League?
  The CHIEF SECRETARY for IRELAND (Mr. Birrell): Mr. Brady has been appointed a resident magistrate, his qualification being that he was a practising solicitor of several years standing.

  Dead Cows (Gorey).
  Mr. MITCHELL-THOMSONasked the Chief Secretary for Ireland whether he is aware that on 4th June the dead body of a cow belonging to District Inspector O'Neill was found at Gorey with a bullet wound in the forehead; whether, two months ago, another cow belonging to the same officer was also found under like circumstances; and whether anyone has been arrested in connection with these offences?
  Mr. BIRRELL: I understand that a cow belonging to District Inspector O'Neill was found dead on the 4th instant with a bullet wound in the forehead. In September last another cow belonging to him was found dead, but the veterinary surgeon who examined the animal stated that it had died from disease. No arrests have been made up to the present in connection with the case.

FINANCE BILL, 1910–11.
Sir FREDERICK BANBURY: I wish to ask the Prime Minister if he can inform us whether it is intended to introduce a Budget, or whether he has abandoned that useful and ancient custom?
The PRIME MINISTER: As far as my information goes, I have no reason to think that the custom has been or will be abandoned.
Several other Members took and subscribed the oath.

BILL PRESENTED.

  ALDERMEN IN MUNICIPAL BOROUGHS BILL.
  "To amend The Municipal Corporations Act, 1882, with respect to the right of
  1320
  Aldermen to vote in the election of Aldermen and Mayor," presented by Mr. HERBERT LEWIS; supported by Mr. Burns; to be read a second time To-morrow.

CIVIL LIST COMMITTEE.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER (Mr. Lloyd George)The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER (Mr. Lloyd George) moved:
"That a Select Committee be appointed to consider His Majesty's Most Gracious Message of 14th June relating to the Civil List and to Grants to Her Majesty the Queen and Members of His Majesty's Family:
"That the several Papers presented this day relating to the Civil List be referred to the Committee:
"That the Committee do consist of Twenty-one Members:
"That Mr. Asquith, Mr. Balfour, Mr. Barnes, Mr. Gibson Bowles, Mr. Cave, Mr. Austen Chamberlain, Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer, Sir Edwin Cornwall, Sir Henry Dalziel, Mr. Dickinson, Sir Charles Dilke, Mr. Akers-Douglas, Mr. Ellis, Mr. Hayes Fisher, Sir David Brynmor Jones, Mr. Lonsdale, Mr. Steel-Maitland, Mr. Mildmay, Mr. Shackleton, Mr. Eugene Wason, and Mr. Stuart-Wortley be Members of the Committee:
"That Five be the quorum."
In rising to move the Motion that stands in my name on the Paper, I do not propose to make any statement at present. The practice hitherto has been, at the commencement of each reign, that a Committee of the House of Commons shall be set up to consider the provision proposed to be made for the maintenance of the dignity of the Crown; that the Government shall submit its proposals for the purpose to that Committee, in the first instance, before submitting them to the House of Commons; that they shall be thoroughly examined by the Committee in the first instance, and that then the Report of the Committee shall be submitted to the House, and full opportunity given for discussion of the proposals. There are obvious advantages undoubtedly in referring, in the first instance, this subject to a Committee. Full information will be placed at the disposal of that Committee which will enable them to come to a just and fair conclusion on the whole of the circumstances. That course will be pursued in the present case, and therefore I confine myself to simply moving the appointment

1321
of the Committee, trusting that discussion of the subject will be deferred until the Committee have examined the proposals, with all the facts before them, and the Report of that Committee has been brought before the House.
Question put, and agreed to.

REGENCY BILL.
The PRIME MINISTER: I beg to move for leave to bring in a Bill "to provide for the administration of the Government in case the Crown should descend to any issue of His Majesty while such issue shall be under the age of eighteen years, and for the care and guardianship of such issue."
I rise to ask leave to introduce this Bill consequent upon His Majesty's Gracious Message of yesterday, and the Address, passed in reply to that message by the House. The Bill seeks to make provision for a contingency which we all hope and pray may never occur, the contingency, that is to say, of the demise of the Crown before the person next in succession has attained legal age, namely, eighteen years. The Bill follows in all substantial respects the latest precedent, namely, the Act of 1840, which was passed at the beginning of the reign of Her Majesty Queen Victoria. It provides that if on the demise of His present Majesty, whom God long preserve, any child of His Majesty succeeds to the Crown while under the age of eighteen years Her Majesty Queen Mary shall be the guardian and have the care and tuition of such child until the child attains the age of eighteen years. It goes on to enact that Her Majesty Queen Mary shall, until that time, have full power and authority, in the name of the child and under the style and title of Regent, to exercise and administer the Royal power and government of this realm and of the dominions and territories belonging to the Crown. It further provides that certain oaths which are set out in the Schedules shall be taken by the Regent before she enters upon her office. It prohibits any marriage on the part of the infant Sovereign without the consent in writing of the Regent and of both Houses of Parliament. It provides that the powers given to the Regent shall not include the giving of the Royal Assent to any Bill varying the order or course of succession to the Crown as established by the Act of Settlement, or to any Bill for
1322
repealing or altering the Act of Uniformity, or that part of the Act of Union with Scotland which relates to the establishment of the Presbyterian Church. Then, finally, following precedent, it disables the Regent if, at any time after having become the holder of that office, she should be reconciled to or hold communion with the Church of Rome, or should profess the Roman Catholic religion, or should marry a person professing that religion, from continuing to exercise or hold the office. In all these respects the Bill is strictly in accordance with the precedent I have named, and I hope the House will now give leave for the introduction of the Bill.
Bill "to provide for the administration of the Government in case the Crown should descend to any issue of His Majesty while such issue shall be under the age of eighteen years, and for the care and guardianship of such issue," ordered to be brought in by the Prime Minister, Mr. Churchill, the Attorney-General, the Lord Advocate, and the Attorney-General for Ireland. Presented accordingly, and read the first time; to be read a second time upon Monday next.

CONSOLIDATED FUND (No. 2) BILL.
Order for Third Reading read.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read the third time."—[Mr. Hobhouse.]
Mr. PRETYMAN: I rise to call attention to the administration by the Commissioners of Inland Revenue of their duties in the collection of the Increment Value Duty. I suppose the House is aware that under the Finance Act recently passed no sale of land, or of any interest in land, or any lease over a period of fourteen years can be legally completed without the Increment Value Duty stamp having been affixed. It follows that every transaction in land, however small, has to be brought to the notice of the Commissioners, and has to comply with the regulations made by them. I think the House will perhaps realise what this means when they understand how infinitesimal may be the transactions which can be brought to the notice of the Commissioners, and which have to go through this expensive process. There are certain concrete cases which I propose to bring forward, and I am sure the House will agree that an actual concrete case is

1323
a matter of which it should take cognisance. I do not propose to put my opinions before the House; I propose to put before it what is the actual state of affairs, and what is the procedure which solicitors hove to follow with the Revenue Commissioners, and then the House will be able to form its own judgment. I have here a letter from a firm of Scottish solicitors—Messrs. Symons and Macdonald, of Dumfries. I quote this only to show the character of the transactions which are involved. The letter states:—
"I recently purchased a lair in the cemetery here in connection with the death of a client. The Secretary of the Cemetery Company informs me he is unable to deliver the conveyance until lie has satisfied the Revenue as to the liability of the Company for Increment Value Duty."
I believe "lair" is the Scottish for a site of a grave. Here we have the case of a site for a grave, about seven feet by four presumably, for the interment of a deceased person. I do not know whether the interment has been allowed to take place pending the settlement of this matter with the Inland Revenue Commissioners. That is not my point, but that you have an infinitisimal transaction running into a matter probably of a few shillings, and on that transaction a mass of documents have to be furnished and particulars have to be supplied to the Inland Revenue, and expense incurred by the individuals concerned in the site, although it is perfectly obvious no Increment Value Duty can be charged in such a case as that. Curiously enough, in the very same letter, I have evidence to show that it is not only a question of urban land or even of cemetery sites, but of agricultural leases also. The same letter states:—
"Leases even of purely agricultural subjects if of fifteen years duration or upwards, are regarded by the Revenue as justifying an elaborate inquiry as to the liability of the proprietor for Increment Value Duty. We sent up a lease last week of a farm three miles distant from the nearest township to have the ordinary lease stamp impressed and got in return a voluminous set of questions from the Commissioners. If the trouble involved in answering such questions is to be avoided the only course for proprietors to follow is to make their leases of shorter duration than fifteen years.'"
The House will gather from these concrete cases that every one of the tens of thousands of daily transactions in land or interest in land, has to go to Somerset House, and not a single one has yet been adjudicated upon, and at least five or six months must elapse before Increment Value Duty can be settled in any one of those cases. The very smallest property is not
1324
exempt. I have a letter here in regard to another part of this matter—where a property has been bought for £50. The owner of that property has now resold it. and he has to go through this mill, and all this great trouble and expense. The Commissioners of Inland Revenue are demanding all these particulars, and I think the House will agree it is obvious that those particulars can only be demanded under the authority of the Act itself. Any authority which they possess can only arise under Section 4 of the Finance Act. That Section is perfectly clear on this point. Under Section 4, Sub-section (2), it is enacted, "It shall be the duty of the transferor or lessor on the occasion of any transfer on sale of land, or on the grant of any lease of any land for a term exceeding fourteen years, to present to the Commissioners, in accordance with regulations made by them, the instrument by means of which the transfer or the lease is effected, or agreed to be effected, or reasonable particulars thereof, for the purpose of the assessment of duty thereon.…" It is a perfectly clear enactment that either the instrument itself or, not "and," "reasonable particulars thereof" are to be presented, and that is all. Sub-section (5) enacts: "Regulations may be made by the Commissioners with respect to the mode in which any instrument is to be presented to them …" That is the extent of the statutory powers of the Commissioners. They may demand the instrument, or reasonable particulars of the instrument, and may make regulations as to the mode in which the instrument is to be presented. That, so far as I am aware, is the sole authority the Inland Revenue Commissioners have. What is the procedure which they are actually adopting? I have here a concrete case. A widow, Mrs. Applegate, and two sons jointly owned a small estate, consisting of a greengrocer's shop and nine small leasehold properties, in three equal shares. One of the sons sold his share to his mother and brother for £1,300, or a third of the total value of the property — namely, £3,900. He executed a deed assigning his interest, and what happens then? The deed of assignment is sent to Somerset House, thereby complying absolutely with the enactment of the Act. Attached to the assignment which was delivered to Somerset House is a schedule containing particulars of the nine leases. An abstract of those was sent to Somerset House with the deed

1325
itself. The authorities—that is, the Commissioners of Inland Revenue—have refused to assess the claim for Increment Value Duty, or to withdraw their claim, unless they are furnished with details on Form I.V.D. (B) of all the nine leases, together with copies of the plans thereon. Mr. Applegate, the vendor, has not got, and never had, any of those leases in his possession, and he cannot, even if he would, insist on their production to him. I may remark that Mr. Applegate in that matter is in the same position as the husband of a wife who will not tell her income for assessment of Super-tax. He cannot complete his sale, and—and this is a point that must not be lost sight of—this is not a case of a demand made by the Inland Revenue upon the subject for a tax which the subject may refuse to pay.
This is a case where the subject, in his own interest, has completed a legal transaction. That legal transaction is pounced upon by the Commissioners of Inland Revenue; he is prevented from completing it, to his disadvantage, and cannot realise his money because this illegal demand is made upon him. He has not got those leases, and it is out of his power to comply with this demand, except with the voluntary consent of those in whose possession they are. If he obtains production he will have to pay for it and for copies of the leases, or of extracts from them, and for copies of the plans. If he did obtain all these and produced them, there would be in them no evidence as to the value of the leaseholds, without particulars of all the present lettings also. Having nothing but the £l,300, which is his sole fortune, and which has now been paid to him, he can ill afford the expense involved in obtaining copies of the leases and plans, and he cannot afford the expense of fighting the question on the construction of Section 4, but would be glad to know what authority, if any, the Chancellor of the Exchequer thinks the Commissioners have for making regulations requiring the production of originals, or copies, or abstracts of any documents beyond the "Instrument of Transfer" itself. This is the Form I.V.D. (B) which Mr. Applegate and innumerable others in a similar position are asked to fill up. Here are four cases of most intricate particulars demanded with regard to each of those separate leases on Form I.V.D. (B) on which statements have to be made as to the description, situation of the land, names, addresses, and descriptions of
1326
the parties, consideration, and innumerable details under that heading. Then questions about parcels, plans, exceptions, and reservations, covenants by purchaser or lessee to build or improve property or to make roads, etc., and restrictions. There is a long list of possible restrictions. Then there are questions as to easements, rights of common, and as to any other covenants or conditions; then additional particulars as to habendum, rents, and lessee's or transferee's covenants. All these particulars are demanded in full as to these nine leases. There are present many Gentlemen learned in the law who can interpret statutory language better than I can, but, reading it merely as a plain man, I can discover no sort of authority for placing this expense upon the subject. This was the very objection raised from this side of the House when the Clause was under discussion, and it was in deference to our objections as to the expense that would be thrown upon the subject by the demand for all these particulars in cases where no Increment Value Duty was payable that the section was limited as it is. Yet now we have the Commissioners of Inland Revenue going past the decision of the Committee of this House and demanding these particulars absolutely without authority. I have here another case showing the actual expense. It is the case of the sale of a small property, worth £400 or £500, belonging to a Mr. Emmott. He and his solicitors have had a correspondence as to the charges involved to clients by these demands of the Commissioners of Inland Revenue, and this is what the solicitors say:—
"Upon inquiry of officials at Somerset House, we have ascertained that it will be at least five months before the original site value is fixed, and, of course, until that has been done, it is impossible to dispose of the question of increment value. The effect is that it must be, on the officials' own statement, at least six months before the question can be disposed of finally and we shall be very surprised if a considerably longer time is not required. As regard the legal charges in connection with Increment Value Duty, it has been held by the Council of the Law Society that such charges are not covered by or included in the ordinary conveyancing scale, and that solicitors are entitled to charge under the old Schedule 2 for the whole of the additional work involved. The amount of such charges must therefore depend in every case upon the actual work done, and at the moment it would be difficult to give you an estimate of what our charges will eventually amount to under Schedule 2. If we were to hazard an opinion, we should say that they could not possibly amount to less than three or four guineas, and they might of course be considerably more."
There we have a measure of the expense thrown upon small proprietors by these demands. In addition to the direct expense, the Commissioners of Inland Revenue,

1327
absolutely without authority, so far as I am aware, are retaining purchase money, in case there may be Increment Value Duty payable. Here is a letter, received this morning, from Mr. Pantlin, of 54, Lower Thames Street:—
"I get my living by buying and selling land or house property, principally leases of small cottage property. I suppose it would be difficult to find anyone really as poor as I am now."
[Laughter.] Hon. Gentlemen opposite will talk by the hour on the platform about helping the poor. There is a kind of altruism which is beautiful in theory, but which finds its practical result in the imposing of intolerable burdens upon the poorest of the people in the name of helping other people who get nothing whatever out of it. Then when a man writes and complains at the bitter injury which he is suffering, and says that he is a poor man, the mere statement brings laughter from those benches.
Mr. JAMES PARKER: What brought the laughter was the suggestion that this was possibly the poorest man we could find. Some of us know poorer persons.
Mr. PRETYMAN: I read the words of the letter stating that the writer was as poor as any man could be, and that statement caused the laughter. The letter goes on:—
"I suppose it would be difficult to find anyone really as poor as I am now considering that only a few years ago my father (dead) left me a large fortune, and I now welcome even one single pound. I purchased six old cottages (the lease) at Limehouse for £50, and resold for £135. According to the authorities I made £85 profit, and £17, being 20 per cent., was retained to pay Increment Value Duty. But I give you my small balance sheet, every figure of which can be supported by independent evidence on oath. Purchase price £50, costs including Government fees, stamps, land registry on purchase and sale £20, repairs—the amount expended upon the property bought for £50 — £53, incidentals, £2. Total cost, £125. By sale. £135. Nominal profit on the transaction, £10. Government have in hand, £17. Present dead loss, £7. If I prove to the complete satisfaction of the authorities my figures I may in six months time, not before, be able to deal with my £17."
That is the position under these regulations of this taxpayer, who, I would remind the Chancellor of the Exchequer, is not a duke.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER (Mr. Lloyd George): Does the right hon. Gentleman really suggest that Increment Value Duty is charged without deducting the £53 for repairs?
Mr. PRETYMAN: I have never made any suggestion of the kind. It would be out of order for me in this Debate to
1328
criticise the Increment Value Duty or the principles of the right hon. Gentleman. All I am criticising is the administration of the Act by the authorities at Somerset House. I made it quite plain in the other case, and I repeat it now, that in all probability no Increment Value Duty is payable at all. Yet this man has his £17 impounded, although the Revenue authorities know, and the right hon. Gentleman himself tells us, that there is no Increment Value Duty payable. If that is so, what right has he with Mr. Pantlin's £17? Will he give it back to him? On his own statement he is bound to do so, but the taxpayer cannot get it for six months, according to the statement of Somerset House. This is only one of innumerable cases which reach us every day. The administration is becoming a public scandal.
4.0 p.m.
I will now deal with the more general case. There happens to be an election going on at the present moment at the Hartle-pools. I have investigated something of the conditions in that place, and I find that there are something like 1,500 small holders of land. The trade of that place is unfortunately bad. I am told that there are something like 1,500 empty houses there. Prospects are not bright in that place, and unfortunately many of these small owners have got to emigrate to Canada or elsewhere. Every one of them wishes to part with his property. It is quite obvious in a town of declining trade with 1,500 small owners and 1,500 empty houses that there can be no possible increment, certainly not exceeding the taxable amount of 10 per cent. Not one single man in that place can transfer or lease his property without giving particulars of every sort and description through a solicitor to Somerset House. If he wishes to realise his money, to take his purchase money to Canada, the transaction cannot be completed and cleared up till this mill of Increment Value Duty procedure has been gone through. What is the position there 1 I find the solicitors are obliged to? make a charge to these small owners for the extra work involved by this Increment Value Duty procedure. The small owners refuse to pay the extra charge, and it is a question now between the solicitors and their clients as to whether solicitor or client can best afford to pay this exaction, which is going to produce not one farthing of Revenue.
Here you have every transaction in the borough of Hartlepool, and not there alone, but in forty, nay, hundreds of

1329
smaller boroughs, carried through in this way, and I beg to suggest to the House that not one in a thousand of these cases ought to go to Somerset House and go through this expense and trouble. In not one case in a thousand will there be any revenue whatever derivable. Is it tolerable that the Commissioners of Inland Revenue, in order to be able to exact a small modicum of Increment Value Duty in one case, should be entitled, illegally as I maintain, to demand from 999 others expenditure, trouble, anxiety, and delay with regard to their money, with all the evils and absurdities which I have been detailing to the House?
I have no doubt that we shall receive an answer from the Chancellor of the Exchequer. I asked him a question yesterday which throws a little light upon the matter. I asked him—and I will tell him why I asked the question in the form I did—I asked him yesterday
"whether it is considered that the power given by the Section to the Commissioners to make regulations as to the mode in which an instrument is to he presented to them for stamping authorises them to require the instrument to he accompanied by further documents involving trouble and expense to the taxpayer."
I asked him that question because a firm of solicitors had received a letter from the Commissioners of Inland Revenue in which they made that claim. They stated that they claimed that the words I have read just now in Sub-section (5), which allows the Commissioners to settle the mode in which this information is to be delivered to them, entitles them to demand all these extra particulars. That is their statement, and that is why I ask the question of the right hon. Gentleman in the form I did. He answered me by simply stating, "The answer is in the affirmative." Therefore his answer confirms the letter which was sent by the Commissioners of Inland Revenue; and the House now knows that the right hon. Gentleman and the Commissioners of Inland Revenue claim that these words, inserted here by this House, by which they may prescribe the mode in which the instrument is to be presented to them, also gives them authority to demand as many other instruments as they may inquire for. Until they get these other instruments they will refuse to allow transactions to be completed by affixing the increment value stamp, and thereby they are absolute masters of the situation. Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman, when he replies, will explain to the House how it is that these words, permitting the Commissioners to settle the mode
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of the presentation of one instrument, can be twisted into authority to demand as many particulars, instruments and plans as they are now demanding. Possibly the right hon. Gentleman will try to assure the House that this is a temporary difficulty. He will possibly tell us that it is only because this tax is new that this thing has occurred. Do not let the House be deluded for one moment by any consideration of that sort in these cases. So far from that being the case, this difficulty will increase. We have now a single unit to deal with. Properties are now in the same form, or practically universally must be in the same form, and in the same parcels, as they were on 30th April, 1909. But as time goes on, and we have a constant redistribution of property, you will find that the investigations will become constantly more complex, constantly more difficult, and that any particular parcel of land which becomes subject to this inquiry will be composed of parts of other parcels which have been separately valued, and that the value of the parcel originally taken is only an indefinite guide to the value of the particular bit of it included in the property under review, and you will arrive at an impasse.
I do appeal to the House—after all we have been considered to be a business nation—is it tolerable that all our business in dealing with realty in this country should be exposed to this mass of procedure, and that no transaction, however small, can be carried out without this delay and absolutely unnecessary expense? The right hon. Gentleman added, and I think this was the most ingenious thing I ever heard in an answer—the right hon. Gentleman told me that the answer to the second part of the question which I have just read out "was in the affirmative." He then proceeded:—
"I may add that the further documents required to be lodged with the instrument are necessary for the purpose of enabling the Commissioners to assess Increment Value Duty."
I should have thought that that would have been a condemnation of the Increment Duty rather than an excuse for the Commissioners for acting illegally. Does the fact that the Commissioners want these to enable them to assess Increment Value Duty give them the right to act illegally without the authority of this House? What right have they to demand these particulars because they happen to want them to enable them to assess the Increment Value Duty? That fact ought to have been brought before the House

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when it was discussing the Budget of last year. If that authority had been required perhaps the House would have given it. It will be open to the Chancellor of the Exchequer, if he desires authority for all this procedure, to bring his demand forward at the present time when we get the Budget of this year, and he will then see whether the House will or will not give him the authority he asks for.
I have made my case in regard to that matter. I will only refer to one more matter. That is the question of the Super-tax, which was referred to at Question Time. May I on that say that the forms are not yet in the Vote Office, and are not yet available? It is therefore practically impossible for us to discuss that matter to any advantage until the forms are available. I will only say, in regard to agricultural property, that I can hardly suppose for one moment that the demands made upon the taxpayers can be intended to be complied with to the letter. Surely it is ridiculous to require an owner of complicated landed property, where it is in the shape of allotments, small holdings, cottages, and tenures of all sorts and descriptions producing very little income, as to every one of which he has been through the mill of the ordinary Income Tax as to any claim that the Commissioners may have made in regard to tax leviable upon him with the exemptions to which he is entitled, that he shall be obliged in respect to that property to furnish, to re-supply, a statement containing the particulars of every allotment separately, and the name of the person to whom it is let, and exactly the same in regard to every cottage, when a simple reference to the Commissioner in the district would enable the Inland Revenue Commissioners to obtain the whole of these particulars which have already been gone through by the owner at great expense in the estate office. I will not say more than that. There are many other instances which will arise upon the Super-tax, but this is one which I am able to speak to from personal knowledge, and I bring that matter to the notice of the right hon. Gentleman. I hope the right hon. Gentleman will be able to—I am sure the House will expect him to—make it perfectly clear that the Commissioners are acting within their powers in making these demands upon the taxpayer or to say if they are not entitled to make these demands then these exactions shall cease. I will make one more suggestion. If this matter is in doubt, sup-
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posing legal Gentlemen on the other side of the House or the advisers of the Crown cannot make up their minds as to what is the exact effect of these words in the Statute—if there is any doubt whatever— it is clearly the duty of the Crown to resolve that doubt without expense to the subject. I call the right hon. Gentleman's attention to the precedent set in the Beach case. I claim that until a case of that sort is decided that the action of the Commissioners in demanding these documents is illegal. If the right hon. Gentleman can convince the House that they are acting within their rights, then the matter falls to the ground. If he himself is convinced that they are not acting within their rights he will, of course, immediately stop this procedure. If, at any rate, the matter is in doubt, I then beg to suggest to him that it is his duty to immediately bring into the courts a test case at the expense of the Crown, and I suggest to him that a better case than that of Mr. Applegate, who cannot afford to fight it himself, could not possibly be brought forward. Let Mr. Applegate's case be decided at the expense of the Crown, and let it be decided in the courts whether these Commissioners are or are not acting ultra vires.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER (Mr. Lloyd George): I shall deal first of all with the question of the Super-tax. I agee with the hon. Gentleman who has just sat down, that perhaps on the whole it would be better to defer the Debate on these regulations until, in the words of Mr. Speaker, they are effectively in possession of the House. I quite agree they are not effectively in possession of the House when we have only laid them nominally on the Table, and nobody is in possession of them except the officials. I fully realise that forty days ought to be given from the moment the House of Commons has full cognisance of the regulations. I am sorry that they are not already in possession of the House, but I understand that they will be in a very short time. I think that it is exceedingly desirable that the Debate, which I agree is quite inevitable with a new tax like this, should take place not merely after these particulars have been given to the House, but after the Members have had full time for thoroughly considering and digesting them.
Mr. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN: May I assume that it follows, from what the right hon. Gentleman says, that the regulations

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will not be acted upon as against the tax payer until the House has had this discussion?
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: The right hon. Gentleman knows very well what the practice is with regard to regulations of this kind. You cannot altogether suspend the operation of the tax until the expiration of the date on which this House, or the House of Lords, shall challenge the regulations. And for that reason we must have a Special Commission. You could not vary the Finance Bill of this year. In every Finance Bill the regulations shall be acted upon as presented until the day of their annulment, and if the House of Commons, in its wisdom, thinks it necesary to alter them, the adjustment ought then to be made in favour of the taxpayer. But you cannot suspend the operation of the collection of the taxes until forty days has expired; that was fully debated when the Budget was before the House last year. I cannot go beyond that at the present moment, but I agree it ought to be taken into account. If it is ever a question of pressing the taxpayer, you ought to take into account the fact that the notice was shorter than it otherwise might have been.
Mr. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN: I think I have not made my request clear. It was not that action should be postponed for forty days, but, as I presume we will have these regulations shortly, it will be for the convenience of Members generally that we should have an opportunity of discussing them at an early date.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: I think that is quite reasonable, and I shall discuss the matter with the officials, and see if there is no insurmountable difficulty, and I will do my best to meet the right hon. Gentleman. I do not want to enter into a matter which is very controversial of these regulations. The whole machinery has been dislocated and put back owing to the peculiar circumstances under which the Budget had to be postponed. [HON. MEMBERS: "No, no."] I should have thought that there would riot be the slightest doubt about that, and I am sure that that was the feeling of the officials in the matter—they never knew, of course, what might happen. Therefore I will postpone anything I may have to say about the Super-tax until we come to the discussion about the regulations. The only observation I should like to make is in reference to what fell from the hon. Gentleman opposite and some others in
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regard to the Super-tax. He complains of the number of particulars of hereditaments which are demanded from the taxpayer. That is very largely due to the taxpayer himself, and it is due to the fact that we have increased the deductions and exemptions which he is entitled to make in order to have relief from the Super-tax. The Commissioners therefore wanted full particulars in order to enable them to arrive at a correct result.
Mr. PRETYMAN: That really is not so.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: I am only telling the hon. Gentleman what the officials state, as one reason among others, for wanting more particulars; and what I suggest is this, that for the moment they should apply a lump sum, and in good time they should supply full particulars, and that then there should be an adjustment as between the Inland Revenue and the taxpayer on either side. If the taxpayer should prove that he is entitled to larger reduction, it shall be made. On the other hand, if he has paid less than he ought to have paid, the adjustment should be made in favour of the Crown. That is the only suggestion I make, and I think it ought to meet the case. It would be very difficult for the Crown to make a proper deduction unless full particulars were supplied.
I now come to the much more controversial part of the hon. Gentleman's statement—that is the part dealing with the Land Taxes. The hon. Member opposite has not given me notice of any of these cases, and therefore I am not in a position to deal with all of them.
Mr. PRETYMAN: I gave the right hon. Gentleman notice yesterday.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: Of these particular cases?
Mr. PRETYMAN: That I was going to raise cases of this kind.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: I am not complaining of that, but the hon. Gentleman did not give me notice of these particular cases, and therefore I was not in a position to consult the Inland Revenue about them. He referred to a case in Scotland. I know nothing about the details. How could I? I only heard of it from the hon. Gentleman for the first time in the last few minutes. He mentioned the case of Mr. Pantlin. I have been able to make some inquiries in regard to that, and I find that the particulars given by the hon. Gentleman are incorrect.
Mr. PRETYMAN: No, no.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: Does the hon. Gentleman say that £17 was impounded by the Inland Revenue?
Mr. PRETYMAN: Mr. Pantlin says so.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: Mr. Pantlin does not say so. He has written to me, and he does not say so, and as a matter of fact the £17 has not been impounded. The hon. Gentleman opposite elicited very loud cheers from his friends behind him on the ground that the £17 was impounded as a stamp on an increment which he would not have realised, because he had £51 deducted in respect of repairs. That £17 has not been deducted by the Inland Revenue; it is not in the possession of the Inland Revenue.
Mr. PRETYMAN: He says it is.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: I do not care whether he says so or not. I have the authority of the officials here, who say that the £17 was not impounded.
Mr. PRETYMAN: His solicitor has it.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: The £17 has been impounded by his solicitor? That is a very different thing. I can understand a good many reasons why the solicitor impounded the £17, which has nothing whatever to do with the Inland Revenue. It may be for the cost of deeds or for other matters, but the Inland Revenue has not impounded the £17, and why the Inland Revenue, and not merely the Inland Revenue but the Budget, and the Government should be arraigned because the solicitor has impounded £17, is more than I can see.
Mr. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN: Will the right hon. Gentleman say whether the writer of the letter gives any reasons as to why the solicitor impounded the £17?
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: I will read the letter. It starts exactly as the hon. Gentleman opposite told us, about £50 cost, and £20 and legal costs, and £53 cost of repairs, and £10 profit, and he talks about the solicitor having £17 in hand and having it for six weeks, and he talks about being a poor man, "and I want it and I cannot get it, and I cannot pay my way." What on earth has the Inland Revenue to do with all that? I ask any hon. Member whether the impression upon their minds left by the story told by the hon. Member was not that the £17 had been impounded
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by me, and he pointed at me and said, "You have got it." I have not got it; it is the solicitor who has got it, and that is a very different story. I think it would be fairer if the hon. Gentleman opposite stated the facts, and the whole of them, and did it correctly.
Mr. PRETYMAN: That is a most unwarrantable accusation. I read the letter, which states that the Government have in hand £17. He says "according to the authorities I made £85 profit, the £17, being 20 per cent., was retained as Increment Value Duty." He got the balance, which left the Government in hand £17. So I have made no mistake. He states that the Government have his money, and it is perfectly obvious that the solicitors are I obliged to hold the money to meet the claim of the Inland Revenue.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: That letter does not say the Government have got it.
Mr. PRETYMAN: "The Government in hand £17."
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: He does not say that the Government have got the money and he does not, as a matter of fact, say it to me, and I tell the hon. Gentleman as a matter of fact the Government have not his money at all. That is what really matters. What does this thing matter if it is not that the accusation is made against the Government that we have got this £17? It is not accurate. We have not got a penny piece of it. Now the hon. Gentleman opposite repeats it. Does the hon. Gentleman say that we have got a penny piece of this £17?
Mr. PRETYMAN: No, I certainly withdraw the statement absolutely. I accept the Chancellor of the Exchequer's statement that he has not got the money. Mr. Pantlin in his letter to me says he has. It appears now that the difference is that the money instead of being in the hands of the Treasury is being held by Mr. Pant-lin's solicitor under the regulations.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: If the hon. Gentleman can point out a single regulation which justifies this solicitor in retaining that £l7 I should be very glad to see it. I know something of these regulations, and I know the solicitor has no business to retain it. Mr. Pantlin, in his letter to us, says there is no difficulty in proving £53 paid upon repairs, but that is no justification for the solicitor retaining the I money, and it is very unfair that the

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Government should be held responsible, not for the Act which they passed, but because a solicitor in Limehouse has retained £17 which ought to be in the pocket of Mr. Pantlin, who is a poor man. These are the hard cases of the new Land League. Are these cases which are being got up?
Mr. PRETYMAN: They will bring you down.
Mr LLOYD GEORGE: The hon. Gentleman failed to bring us down at the last election. These are the cases on which he runs his Land League. This is the pabulum supplied to him by his clients. This charge is absolutely groundless. Anybody who reads the case of Mr. Pantlin when the real facts are given and believes anything else will believe anything.
Take the case of Mr. Edward Evans. He is a very able opponent of the Budget. He worked harder than anybody in the country except the hon. Member opposite against it. He is a propagandist against the Land Clauses. I have only to say that his statements are apparently supported in this instance without examination. I think the hon. Gentleman opposite ought to give more particulars from Mr. Evans. He is a very strong opponent of the Land Taxes. He said he had consulted the Law Society. I know something more than the hon. Gentleman about the Law Society, and I have never seen a Bill for the reform of the law whether brought in by a Liberal Government or a Conservative Government that the Law Society did not oppose if it was to have the effect of reducing the charges in the profession to which I have the honour to belong. Take the case of the Bill introduced for the Registration of Titles. The Law Society fought it just as hard as they fought the Budget, and for the same reason, and the Law Society knows perfectly well the effect in the long run of registering every particular of this kind in a great national register will be to simplify the transfer of land. I know something about the transfer of land— something more than the hon. Baronet the Member for the City of London. On the question of stocks and shares, I would be quite prepared to take his opinion. I tell him that I would rather make out a bill of costs where there was no registry of this kind than where full particulars were registered. I am sure it will be much simpler afterwards. We have heard a lot of talk about the increase of the costs, but, as a matter of fact, I believe in a very short time they will be a good
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deal less than three guineas. Does the hon. Member really mean that the Law Society will get up a great agitation against a Bill that increases the charges of a lawyer by three guineas? The Law Society has always opposed every Bill of this kind. They have opposed the Public Trustee Act, Registration of Title, Middlesex Registry, and everything of that kind. They opposed the simplification of bankruptcy, proposed by the right hon. Member for West Birmingham, and they were always opposed to all such proposals. The hon. and gallant Member complained that too many particulars were being asked for. I notice that the particulars of which he complains his own party were responsible for. Mortgages, restricted covenants, there is hardly one of these which is not in the interests of the taxpayers, and they were proposed by the hon. and gallant Member's Friends. I remember a deputation being brought in, and I heard the Leader of the Opposition urging with great ingenuity and success the desirability of making exceptions where you have restricted covenants, and the right hon. Gentleman intended it to apply not only to restricted covenants of the future, but also of the past. I thought he made out a good case, and I assented to his proposition, and now that is one of the things complained of. I think the hon. Gentleman should settle that matter with his own Leader.
Let me give another case. The case of the mortgagee was urged by the hon. Member for Liverpool, and he urged it repeatedly. There is hardly a Clause in all the provisions of that Act to which the hon. Member did not move an Amendment in the interests of the mortgagee, and at last we assented to his proposition. In order to carry out an Amendment moved from the other side of the House-we had to put special questions demanding full particulars in the interests of the taxpayer, and because we are doing it the hon. Gentleman says, "Look at the sort of particulars they are demanding." These are the very particulars which the hon. Gentleman and his Friends wanted us to insist upon for the protection of the taxpayer. Why should we want to insist upon them? If the taxpayer does not want to supply particulars of mortgages it is all the better for us, and the same argument applies to restricted covenants. The questions we put are all in the interests of the taxpayers themselves. With regard to plans, we are

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entitled to demand all particulars necessary to enable an assessment of the Increment Duty. The hon. Member said this was ultra vires. I think there is a good deal to be said for the contention that the litigation should not be at the expense of the subject. I am sorry that none of the legal advisers of the Crown are present, but I will consult them as to whether a test case can be fought. I do not know enough about the legal difficulties there may be in the way, but I think it is reasonable that if there is a doubt about the matter this question should not be settled fit the expense of the man who has got a property of £l,300, and I will see if it is possible to get an opinion at the expense of the Crown. A man with a property of £l,300 should not bear the expense of fighting a matter which may have to go up to the House of Lords. I think that is a reasonable demand, and if I can be assured that there is any reasonable doubt by any legal gentleman on the hon. Member's own side, I do not think there will be any difficulty about seeking the opinion of the courts without putting the subject to the expense of litigation.
I think I have now dealt with all the points raised by the hon. Member. I should have liked to have gone into the Scotch and the agricultural cases to which he has alluded, but I do not know what those cases are, and perhaps he will be good enough to supply me with them. When the hon. Member talked about tens of thousands of transactions of this kind being dealt with by lawyers I think his statement is absurd, because there are certainly not tens of thousands of cases. It is not true to say that this difficulty is largely one of valuation. There is no doubt there will be a great deal of difficulty at first until the valuation is complete, but after that the process will be just as simple as it is in any other country. I do not like harking back to old controversies, but this matter is very simple in the great cities of Germany—so simple, in fact, that they propose to extend it. It is not difficult so far as the particulars are concerned. As far as the particulars themselves are concerned, they are just as complicated in Germany as they are here. In the course of time, once the valuation is complete, once you get your national register to refer back to, there will be no difficulty. There may be a little difficulty at the beginning, and there may be just a little expense, but in the long run it will not merely bring revenue to the Treasury,
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but it will add a good deal to the simplification of the transfer of land, and will benefit those engaged in buying and selling real property.
Mr. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN: The right hon. Gentleman has really made a very characteristic speech, illustrative not of his best, but of his worst Parliamentary style. He has subjected certain very reasonable concessions suggested by my hon. Friend to a good deal of very violent language, which was quite unnecessary, and which really does not strengthen the case of the Chancellor of the Exchequer. I recognise that he met the request which I made across the floor of the House in the matter of the Super-tax regulations very fairly, and I notice that copies have been circulated in the House since I put the question to him. I at once acknowledge that he met me very fairly on that point, and he said as much as he could at this stage by suggesting that a test case should be taken upon a matter to which both sides attach great importance. I quite understand that the Government in making a concession of that kind must be assured that this is no mere debating conviction given in the course of a Parliamentary discussion, but that it is the considered opinion of a lawyer of eminence and repute speaking as such, and who is ready to state that there is grave doubt as to the legality of the action taken by the Government. I hope in administering this legislation the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the Government will be, prepared, on good cause shown, to take similar test cases in other similar matters. It is quite obvious that very important questions of principle may arise in regard to cases where very little money is at stake, and it is quite impossible in such cases for the taxpayer to find the money. The Government ought to be prepared on good cause shown to fight these cases, as has occasionally been done before, at the cost of the Crown in order that the law may be declared in the common interests of the Treasury and the taxpayers.
I now pass from those points upon which I think the Chancellor of the Exchequer met my hon. and gallant Friend very fairly to the gravamen of the indictment which my hon. Friend has brought, and in regard to which I do not think the Chancellor of the Exchequer really appreciated, and may I say perhaps did not even intend to appreciate, what the gravamen of the charge was. He dealt with the case of Mr. Pantlin. Mr. Pantlin was out of

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pocket on a business transaction more than the amount of his profit. He was £17 out of pocket in a case where the whole profit was £10, and he could not get his money because the tax was not assessed. It was a case in which it was clear that no tax was due. Mr. Pantlin could not get a decision from the Commissioners of Inland Revenue, and therefore could not get his money, and could not deal with it. Not only could he not get the £10 profit he had made, but he could not get £7 of his own money in addition, which was held up because the Inland Revenue would not give a decision. Now, what is the Chancellor of the Exchequer's defence? My hon. and gallant Friend read Mr. Pantlin's own letter, and I know nothing of Mr. Pantlin beyond what is stated in his letter. Anyone reading that letter would have supposed that the money was actually in the hands of the Government. We have been told that it was not in the hands of the Government, but that it was held by a solicitor to satisfy a claim which the Government might make, and the amount of which the Government would not state. What is the Chancellor of the Exchequer's defence? He says: "It does not matter; what really matters is that the Government has not got the money." In my opinion what really matters is that the man who ought to have the money has not got it. The Government have not got the money, and have no claim to it. If any hon. Member looks into the case he will see that the Government have no claim to it, and they are keeping the man who ought to have the money from having it because they will not pass the transaction and declare it to be free of tax. That is the real gravamen of the case and of every other case which my hon. and gallant Friend presented. In Mr. Pantlin's case the Inland Revenue will not decide whether any tax is payable. He cannot get his documents stamped. The Inland Revenue want six months to find out whether there is any Increment Duty payable. I agree with the Chancellor of the Exchequer. He thinks it absurd; so do I. Then why does not the Chancellor of the Exchequer issue instructions that this kind of thing is to cease—this persecution of poor men and this interference in petty transactions where there is no duty to be had?
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: If I really thought there was any hanging up of transactions of this sort for six months I would certainly issue instructions, but I am assured it is not the case with regard
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to Mr. Pantlin. If £20 of anyone's money were held up I agree it would be unreasonable.
Mr. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN: Will the right hon. Gentleman say if they have stamped his documents and shown what, if any, tax is payable? The trouble, I am afraid, will inevitably arise, because in every case, whether primâ facie any tax is due or not, all these forms have to be gone through and all these particulars asked for. I think the Chancellor of the Exchequer did not consider whether these forms which he says are being employed for the protection of the taxpayer are being so employed. Take the case of the seven houses and the grocer's business. Is it necessary for them to have the details of the leases of each of these separately in order that they may protect the man who has £l,300 in all as his third share? Is it necessary they should have the plans of the houses? These powers are not being used for the protection of the taxpayer. I do not suggest that they are being deliberately used to persecute him, but they are being used as forms of the Government and the law are apt to be used —without consideration and thought. If the Chancellor of the Exchequer means this Act to work without producing a sense of intolerable wrong, and if he hopes to obtain for it such a measure of popularity as he boasted of at the last election, he will have to alter the ways of the Inland Revenue, because every time they interfere like this in one of these transactions, and every time they cause this expense and delay they add a convert to our view as to the injustice and inexpediency of the Finance Act of last year.
He says all this will pass away, and that you have only to look at the working of the tax in Germany. There is no more comparison between this tax and a certain tax in Germany than between the moon and green cheese. The tax in Germany is not a tax on leasehold property, and it does not involve the valuation of every piece of agricultural land. Only such property is dealt with as is taxable property, and the procedure, as the right hon. Gentleman knows, and as he showed last year, is infinitely more simple than the procedure which has to be gone through in this case. When you work a great change of this kind and introduce new principles into taxation and new impositions into affairs which are the subject of daily transactions in all classes and all ranks of the community, affecting not great men

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with great estates, having the power to summon to their assistance the most expert advice obtainable, but little men struggling to make both ends meet, to whom every pound and shilling is of consequence, if you want to make your measure tolerable, you must alter the spirit in which the Inland Revenue is dealing with these matters, and you must instruct them that they are to make the Act work as smoothly, instead of as roughly, as it can be made to work. It is better at the beginning, at any rate, that the State should lose some revenue to which it is entitled than that poor individuals should be fined in costs and expenses in order to prove that no tax is due. I submit to the Government and to the House that, if the samples which my hon. Friend has given, and which are drawn from the large correspondence he has on this subject, are in any way fair samples of what is going on throughout the country, and I believe they are, the whole spirit of the administration must be changed, or the Government will be unable to maintain their legislation.
Mr. ELLIS DAVIES: The whole thing seems to me to be nothing more than a storm in a teacup. If I understand the case rightly, there is an increment value of £85, and possibly, therefore, a duty due to the Government of £17. That is an obligation thrown on the vendor by the Finance Act. Consequently, the solicitor to the vendor has to satisfy the solicitor to the purchaser that that duty has been paid or that there is enough money in hand to meet that obligation. One would think from the two speeches delivered from the other side that the rules and regulations with regard to Estate and Succession Duty did not at the present exist. Anyone conversant with conveyancing in this country knows perfectly well that on the completion of any purchase the vendor's solicitor is bound to produce evidence that the property is either not subject to Estate and Succession Duty or that the duty has been paid. What is the difference between the payment of Increment Value Duty and Estate and Succession Duty? There is practically no difference whatever. All the vendor in this case has been asked to do is to satisfy the purchaser of the property that the Increment Value Duty has been paid, and, as he is unable to do so, the solicitor to the purchaser has naturally retained in hand sufficient to meet the obligation cast upon the vendor.
Mr. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN: I beg the hon. Member's pardon. I said the solicitor in this case is exonerated from the charge brought against him. Will the hon. Member tell us why Mr. Pantlin is unable to prove that there is no tax due? Is it not because the Inland Revenue will not stamp his documents?
Mr. ELLIS DAVIES: I make no charge against the solicitor. I know it is a very common practice indeed to give an undertaking to the solicitor on the other side that these duties will be paid. As far as I understand, the only complaint made is that there has been some delay with regard to the sum of £17. Surely the right hon. Gentleman must know, if he will consult some of his Friends who are solicitors, that there is always considerable delay in getting the assessment of Estate or Succession Duty. There are innumerable inquiries to be made, and the difficulty is generally got over by the solicitor retaining in hand sufficient to meet any claims the Government may make. Is not that the exact case here? I understand the solicitor in this particular case has retained £17, which is 20 per cent. Increment Duty on £85 increase in the value of the property. What does the right hon. Gentleman complain of? The solicitor merely thought what every other solicitor thinks with regard to Estate and Succession Duty. There is no difference between the method of collection of the Increment Duty and the method in which the Estate or Succession Duty is collected at the present time. It is perfectly well known in practice, and there is really no difficulty in the collection of either of those two duties or in the completion of purchases.
Mr. GEORGE FABER: I am glad the hon. Gentleman has come to the rescue of his great profession. I do not think the Chancellor of the Exchequer displayed the same fairness as the hon. Member— in fact, at one point of his speech he almost got to his Limehouse style. He threw it out as a taunt against the solicitor who is engaged in the Pantlin transaction that he was a solicitor from Lime-house. The transaction arose in Lime-house, but, as a matter of fact, the solicitor came from an entirely different part of London. That is the characteristic style the Chancellor of the Exchequer employs when he knows he has got a bad case. He really has not a leg to stand on. To the knowledge of probably all those competent to judge in the

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matter, there is nothing due to the Government at all, but the whole transaction is held up, and this little man whose poverty is ridiculed by hon. Members below the Gangway on the other side is £17 out. Why? Because the Inland Revenue have failed to affix the stamp to the conveyance which is the condition precedent to the completion of the matter. My hon. Friend said the Government had the £17. The letter, he has received rather led to that conclusion. It turns out that the Inland Revenue have not got the £17, and that the solicitor has. The Chancellor of the Exchequer tried to ride off on that as if the solicitor in the matter had done something wrong. He told my hon. Friend (Mr. Pretyman), almost with a sneer, that Mr. Pantlin had better settle with the solicitor. The solicitor, as a matter of fact, did the only thing he could do. He was bound to hold the £17 until the transaction was completed and the stamp affixed. Until the Government stamped the document, it might turn out that something might have to be paid, and, if the solicitor had not the money, he would have to pay it out of his own pocket. Last year for days, weeks, and months we told the Government this was certain to happen. We said it was not only a, case of dukes and big men, but that it v as going to be a hardship upon little men. Little men's transactions would be held up, and they would have to produce all sorts of information before transactions could go through. Little men would be under intolerable hardship. We are only at the beginning of the hardships. This is the commencement.
5.0 P.M.
It is easy enough for the Chancellor of the Exchequer to say that as the time goes on the wheels will be oiled and the machinery will run much more smoothly. I think I may suggest that as weeks and months pass it will be found that such a morass of difficulty has arisen as to amount to a stoppage of all business with regard to transactions in land—a stoppage which will become insupportable—and something will then have to be done. The Government would not listen to our warnings last year. They stopped their ears with cotton-wool. They rushed their Budget through on the plea that the burden was being placed on the dukes and big men, and the little men were led to believe that all would be well with them. But now they find it is going to be very ill with them. There are cer-
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tain of these little men who will discover at a later stage the difficulties which they will have to face. The Member for the West Derby Division of Liverpool—a Gentleman of immense knowledge on these subjects—continually impressed on the Chancellor of the Exchequer that he did not know where he was going or what difficulties he was about to impose on the whole system of land sale and purchase in this country. In those days his warnings were treated as a matter of prejudice. Now, however, we are face to face with the solid facts of the case, and the further we go into the matter the worse the condition is proved to be. The land system of this country is so complicated and land title is so difficult to investigate that if you are going to rip up the title whenever a lease is made for more than a few years you are going to impose a very great hardship indeed. Very often the little man has not got a title; some bigger man holds it. All the little man possesses is the covenant of the bigger man to produce the title when required. The solicitor interested for the bigger man naturally will not produce a copy without being paid, and the little man will be under the obligation of paying him. In the end the holding of land by small men as a profession will become literally impossible. It will not only not be lucrative, but it will become prohibitive. We were told when the Budget was under debate that the Government were compelled by the exigencies of the situation to bring this in. Now, however, they have been able to clear their eyes and wipe their spectacles. They can see what they are doing. They can realise that they are imposing impossible land taxes, and I believe the common-sense of the House will eventually have to come to their rescue. As a tree falls so must it lie, and the community will find that the working of these taxes is in many cases extremely difficult, and in some cases impossible, while in all cases the hardship will prove intolerable.
Sir F. BANBURY: The hon. Gentleman who rose to defend the Chancellor of the Exchequer based his defence on the fact that the same trouble occurs in connection with the Estate and Succession Duties. But may I point out that those duties are only charged at death and there is no hurry for the property to pass. Therefore the delay which occurs is not detrimental to the value of the property which changes hands.
Mr. ELLIS DAVIES: What I pointed out was that there was no more delay in regard to the Increment Duty than there is already in regard to the Estate and Succession Duty.
Sir F. BANBURY: I quite follow that. The hon. Member said that the delay which occurred when the Estate or Succession Duty was payable was serious and that the delay in the present case would not be more serious. But I repeat that payment of the Estate and Succession Duty occurs only on death, whereas these transactions are taking place almost every day. Hitherto there has been no such delay on purchase and sale, and the delay therefore is a new feature to be considered. The fact that there have been delays in other directions is no justification for inflicting it in this present case. I want to direct the attention of the Financial Secretary to another point of which I had given notice to the Chancellor of the Exchequer. Although it is not on all fours with what we have been discussing it does show that the tendency to arbitrary power now prevalent on the Front Bench opposite is extending and is likely to extend. The persons in these cases I am taking up are perfect strangers to me, and I do not wish in any way to appear as champions of their character. I do not know who they are; they may be, or may have been, people whose character is beyond reproach or the reverse. One is dead. But my point is that the Treasury, although it may have acted in a legal manner, has taken arbitrary proceedings which certainly should not have been taken by a Government that calls itself democratic, and which is supposed to represent the interests of the people. The facts of the case are these: There was a Captain Field who, a short time ago, committed suicide. Before his death he had owed the Treasury £300, and the Treasury say that of that debt he had only liquidated £150. Thereupon they issued a writ of immediate extent founded on an Act of Parliament of Edward I., confirmed by Acts of Parliament of Henry VIII. and Queen Elizabeth, an Act of Parliament which, I am informed, has not been acted upon, at any rate in the district in which it was used this time, for at least fifty years. The effect of a writ of immediate extent is that no trial is necessary. It is not necessary for the Treasury to prove that the person whose goods they are going to seize owes them any money or is under any liability to pay them any
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money. They have to go to the jury, and the question they put to that jury is simply "Are the goods we are going to seize value enough for the money which we require?" The jury in this case were told by the prosecuting counsel that they were not to investigate whether or not the Crown had any right to seize this person's goods, but merely whether the Crown, in seizing the goods, had seized goods which were of a value sufficient to make up the amount of the supposed claim. The jury, of course, had nothing to do except to say that the goods were of that value, and immediately the bailiff was put into this person's house—she was a shopkeeper— and he actually took the money out of the till to recompense himself and to recompense the Treasury. I believe that, after a short time, it was realised that that proceeding was too tyrannical even for the occupants of the Front Bench opposite, and therefore instructions were given that the bailiff was only to take a sufficient sum to recompense him for his own expenses, which I understand amounted to about 5s. a day. I think a question was asked in this House by the hon. Member for the Holborn Division upon this case, and the reply he got was that the writ of the immediate extent was not always issued to collect taxes, but was sometimes issued, as in this case, for other purposes. Since that reply was given application has been made to the High Court, and two judges have granted an injunction preventing the Treasury seizing the property of this person. I believe her name is Mrs. Pridgeon. Proceedings are therefore sub judice, and it is not my desire naturally, under those circumstances, to discuss the action of the Treasury. It is sufficient at present to say that they have been stopped by an injunction issued by the High Court. But it does seem to me that the proceedings of the Government are—I hardly know what Parliamentary epithet I can use to describe them —but they are tyrannical to the last degree. That is not a strong enough expression, but I have no wish to be called to order, and I cannot invent at the moment a stronger phrase. It would have been all very well if the Treasury had put this old-fashioned writ, passed in the days of Emperors and Kings—in the days of hereditary legislators and that sort of people who are always doing wrong things —I say it would have been all very well if the Treasury had put it into execution against a duke or some rich man who was in a position to go to the courts and to

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obtain the best legal advice available. But this particular person was a poor person, and I would ask the House to consider what happens in the case of an ordinary poor person who is invaded by an official with a writ empowering him to seize her body—I think that is the legal phrase—and is told that this is put in force by a great Government, that the official is to come in and help himself to all of her goods, and that when she comes to the ordinary court she has no redress. It is enough that she has been able to employ a solicitor and counsel and to get from the High Court an injunction. But I do not know what justification the right hon. Gentleman the Financial Secretary to the Treasury will make for this procedure. I do not believe that either he or the Chancellor of the Exchequer really knew anything about the matter. What I do believe is that the bureaucracy which is increasing so much under the rule of right hon. Gentlemen opposite has now come to such a pitch that the officials do not care what, they do as long as they achieve their ends. They are accustomed to present forms and papers and all sorts of things, and to compel people to sign them. They are now apparently under the impression that they can do just what they please, that the courts of law ought not to be consulted, and that the liberty of the subject is in their hands. I am sorry that the House is so empty, for this is a very serious question. Surely the course the Treasury should have taken would have been that which anybody else would naturally have adopted. They should have gone to this woman and haw served upon her notice that they claimed that she owed them a certain amount of money. It must be remembered that this lady never had any dealings with the Treasury of any sort or kind. What the Treasury claim is that Captain Field owed them money, and they believe that Captain Field has given Mrs. Pridgeon a certain amount, which they claim to take from her. Look at what that might mean! I might owe and pay money to a trader. I might go to a shop in the ordinary course of business and spend a couple of hundred pounds on goods in that shop, and because that £200 that I paid might have belonged to the Treasury then it is said that that Department is entitled to go to that shop and put in a writ of immediate extente and seize the goods in that shop because I paid for the goods I bought with money which they said I obtained from the Treasure. And they might do that without, it
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is said, advancing the slightest proofs before a court of law, or before a magistrate that I owed that money. It seems to me that such an action is inconceivable, and I only hope that the right hon. Gentleman will not only apologise to this person for the steps he has taken, but that he will not in the future proceed in cases of this sort in the same way, but that he will proceed in a similar manner to that which anyone else would proceed—that is to say, he would justify before a court of law the claim which he makes.
How is anybody able to defend themselves unless they are to appear before a judge and jury or a magistrate, and say that they are not liable for the claim which has been made upon them. Unless they are given a chance of proving that their goods are taken under this particular writ and harm is done to their business, and although the right hon. Gentleman does not seem to consider it a very unpleasant thing, I am sure that if a writ of this sort were put into his house he would not like it. I have brought this question up in all seriousness. I have endeavoured to investigate the matter, and I believe that the facts which I have given are correct. I began by stating that I did not appear here as the champion of the character either of Captain Field, who has committed suicide, or of Mrs. Pridgeon. I know nothing about them, and if the defence of the right hon. Gentleman is going to be that the character of these people is not above suspicion, that has nothing whatever to do with the case. The character of a person may be bad, but he is entitled to be judged toy the laws of the land, and no advantage should be taken of anyone because their character is not above suspicion. There are not, perhaps, very many of us who can claim to be above suspicion, but however that may be a man or woman born in England, and an English subject, is entitled to the protection of the laws of the land, and he or she is not to be treated in the high-handed way in which this woman has been treated on this occasion.
Mr. G. A. LLOYD: I rise to ask the attention of the House to a matter of; foreign policy which is gravely agitating all Europe to-day. I refer to the question of Crete. Whilst I know that there are a large number of hon. Members on both sides of the House who have a full recollection of many previous discussions on the same subject, yet I think also there must be many who feel rather inclined to

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ask why it is that we who have already so many large responsibilities are taking an interest in the fate and the affairs of a small island in the Mediterranean, whose interests are in no way our interests apparently, with whom our trade is insignificant, which in size and population is not as large as one manufacturing town in this country, and which forms no part of our Empire. The answer is brief and simple. It is that for various reasons, well understood, I think, by most Members of this House, the question of Crete troubles the whole peace of Europe, and may, ii wrongly handled or ignored, have a very grave and serious effect upon the international relations of the Great Powers in Europe. Further, I would ask the House to consider for a moment what would be the effect to this country if by any chance England allowed any injustice to be done to the Moslem minority in the island of Crete. The situation in the island itself would be a serious one, but it would not be confined to the narrow limits of the island itself. The effects would extend into Asiatic Turkey and beyond. It would gravely prejudice, I have no doubt whatever, the peaceful economic expansion which Great Britain, in company with other Powers, is making in Turkey, to the mutual benefit of the workers of this country and the people for whom we are working in the Ottoman Empire. The breeze of dissatisfaction would spread, and have the effect of fanning the flames of discontent in Egypt, and arouse the attention of many millions of our fellow-countrymen in India and elsewhere. The fact is that the importance of the Cretan question is entirely disproportionate to the size of the island and the amount of the population, and the question has now passed from the stage of being merely an interesting one into a very grave and acute stage. I think the moment has come when on all sides of the House there will be a general feeling that some immediate and drastic remedy should be applied to this question.
No one who has any knowledge of this question, of the many increasing difficulties which have beset succeeding Governments who have taken a share in cooperating with the three other great Powers for the peace of the world in the protection of the Island of Crete, would be willing by any untimely or hasty criticism to render the task of His Majesty's Government more difficult, in finding some
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satisfactory solution of so difficult a problem. But I have once again within the last few days—not for the first time—had some special opportunity of seeing the local effects which the protracted and much-delayed settlement of the Cretan question is having upon the poltical atmosphere in the Levant, and as if to add fuel to the flames already raging out there, and in some parts of Europe, some portion of the less responsible European Press has seen fit to indulge in some loud and bitter condemnation of the action of the four protecting Powers, doubtless with a view to breaking down or impairing in the eyes of the parties concerned the prestige and influence of Great Britain, Italy, France, and Russia. The attack has been more especially made upon the British Government, who have been accused by the German and Austrian Press of serving their own interests in failing to carry out the obligations they undertook with regard to-Crete. This is, perhaps, all the more deplorable because the criticism comes from the Press of those two Powers who have themselves put their hands to the plough as regards Cretan protection and have seen fit to draw back from it, and have left the other Powers to look after the interests of Crete. Whether from the fear of the unpopularity which accrues to people who take other people's work in hand or not, they prefer to stand out and criticise the performance of the very difficult task which the four Governments have undertaken, and are dealing with on the whole very adequately and well. I think that the criticism is deplorable, and I think that the whole tone of it is entirely unjust. If this agitation was receiving only the attention it deserves and no more, and if the people for whose benefit the criticism is circulated were sufficiently well-informed to appreciate it at its true value, it might be well that the Powers concerned could ignore it; but as such is by no means the case, and as public feeling both in Constantinople and in Canea and Athens has been much inflamed to our detriment, I cannot but think that some immediate and full declaration and exposition on the part of His Majesty's Government as to the intentions of the-protecting Powers, not only as to their immediate action, but as to their ultimate goal, would not only be very timely at this moment, but would serve to calm the overexcited feelings of the Greek, Turkish, and Cretan peoples in Athens, in Crete,, and in Turkey.

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It is unnecessary—it is an old truth— to point out that the part of the peacemaker is always a thankless one. It certainly is with regard to the Cretan question, whatever settlement may be ultimately arrived at, as almost certainly the four protecting Powers will earn the dislike of one of the parties concerned, and very possibly of both. But the delay only augments the uneasiness, and is generally construed as a sign of vacillation, and for these reasons I would ask His Majesty's Government if they would consider very carefully whether the time has not passed for hand-to-mouth arrangements with Crete, and whether, just because public feeling is rather more excited than usual in Crete at this moment, that in itself is a sufficient reason for avoiding a permanent settlement of the question. It is well known how Crete and the Cretan question was the direct cause of the Turko-Greek War of 1896. The deep provocation that was given to Turkey's feelings by the raid of General Vassos in the Island, his landing in Crete, his declaration of the annexation of the Island to Greece, was in a large measure unprovoked, and created almost immediately an impossible situation in the Island. General Vassos retired to the hills while the Turkish Garrisons remained in the coast-towns. The situation was impossible, and neither the Turks nor General Vassos, for various reasons, were able to put an end to it. The Powers intervened for that reason, and, indeed, for another even more grave reason, and that is the incident at Candia, when, unfortunately, some British sailors were shot. The Turkish troops were ordered to leave the Island. Not satisfied with this, the Greeks further aroused the Turks by sending bands into Macedonia at this moment.
It will be remembered that nothing at that time could prevent war, not even the intervention of the Powers, not even the announcement that the Power which was victorious would not be allowed the fruits of conquest—not even that was sufficient to stop the war which succeeded. The Turks won a complete victory, and I confess that I have always considered that at that particular moment the Powers lost a unique opportunity of coming to a settlement of the Cretan question. It may well be considered that the Powers would not willingly, and very probably they would not have been willing to allow any of the territory which had been so hardly won
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during the war of liberation from the Turkish Government—it may be well understood that they would not be willing that this should go back to Turkey to be again under the evil administration which then prevailed in the reign of Abdul Hamid. There was no question that Crete should again be put under the actual administration of Turkey. Autonomy was granted, and it does not appear obvious why the Powers should have chosen that particular moment when after a war which was made about Crete, and on the question of Crete—why they should have chosen that moment for the purpose of strengthening the influence of Greece in the island.
However that may be, the Powers saw fit to take the course they did, and if they erred in any manner it can only be said that they erred in leniency to the vanquished Cretans. It cannot be too clearly stated that when the Powers took over the protection of the island they accepted the condition which was asked for by the Turkish Government, which was that during the whole period of their protection the Turkish Suzerainty should be maintained absolutely unimpaired.
Now we have to consider what has been the attitude of the Powers towards Crete and Turkey. There can be no question that it has been uniformly fair and correct during the period of the protection of the island. It has not only shown a very lenient disposition to the aspirations of the Cretans—many people consider it has been far too lenient—but at any rate the Governments concerned have done all they legitimately could to conciliate Cretan feeling in the island. On the other hand, the Powers have rigorously maintained the suzerainty of Turkey. It is, I hope, superfluous to repeat that any Power which was privy to any union of the island with Greece would be guilty of a gross breach of faith with Turkey and of the obligations under which they took the island. That is an incontestable fact, and I do not think it will be disputed on any side of the House. This is the attitude—the maintenance of Turkish Suzerainty and of Cretan autonomy—which His Majesty's Government and the Powers concerned have consistently maintained as far as I know, and if we have come in, in England, for a very large share of Austrian and German criticism, after all, it is only this attitude which the Austrian and German Press can be complaining of. This is no time for recrimination with

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regard to the Press in those countries but we have not yet forgotten the value which is put in those countries upon International Treaties. We in England have the greatest respect for treaties, and we are most unwilling to undergo another period of volcanic unrest such as that which we underwent after the tearing up of the Berlin Treaty last year.
If the attitude of the Powers has been correct, and I think everyone will maintain that it has been substantially correct, the attitude of Turkey towards the Powers has for some time past given no cause for undue complaint. The Turks themselves, though they have often protested against action on the part of the Powers, which they, not without some excuse, have considered might easily be interpreted as giving undue encouragement to the Cretans in hopes which can never be fulfilled, yet they never attempted to interfere with the autonomy of the island. They have not imposed, or attempted to impose, taxation upon the Cretans. The liberty of the Cretans has been absolute, their autonomy complete and large, and they have been far freer from taxation than the subjects of that country to which they now aspire to belong. The behaviour of the Cretans unfortunately has been very different. It has compelled many of those who sympathise very much with their aspirations to consider that the attitude of the Powers has been even too lenient. Every legitimate measure which could have been taken to satisfy the Cretans has been taken by the protecting Powers. They were allowed to have a Greek Prince as High Commissioner, and they were subsequently allowed to have a well-known Greek politician to follow him. They were allowed Greek officers for the training of their Militia, and it is to me incredible that the Cretans cannot have realised the satisfactory position in which they found themselves. If their trouble was bad government they were relieved of it. If it was oppression they were made free. If it was the presence of the Turks, they were relieved also of that. If it was undue taxation, they were left absolutely at liberty to impose upon themselves whatever taxation seemed good to them. Yet ever since-—and this fact should be remembered in weighing the question—in spite of the many concessions and the leniency which the Powers showed, the Cretans have done all they could to cause trouble. They have recently, and
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for a considerable time, persistently intrigued with Greece and done all they could to stir up trouble and difficulties. At the very moment when Turkey was in the throes of a revolution and was purging her administration and laying, amidst unparalleled difficulties, the commencement of the foundation of constitutional government, that moment was chosen by the Cretans to cause trouble and to attempt to declare their union with Greece. Not satisfied with having gained freedom for themselves, they appear to have been unwilling to allow Turkey to have freedom.
Here it is necessary to point out a fact which seems to me of late to have been very much forgotten by the Government of Constantinople. It was at this critical moment in the fortunes of the Young Turkey party that His Majesty's Government took the lead in intervening to prevent trouble in Crete, and they informed both Greece and Crete that they could not be allowed to move at the present time. It would indeed be well if this fact were remembered in Constantinople. It would create an attitude of more confidence and calm if they recollected that if the protecting Powers had been generous and patient in their attitude towards the Cretans they have never failed to remember the obligations to which they were bound with regard to Turkish suzerainty in the island. Foiled in these attempts to create disturbance, the Cretans gave fresh provocation to Turkish feeling in issuing stamps bearing the likeness of the King of Greece and administering justice in the same name, and as soon as the foreign troops had left the island they saw fit to attempt to hoist the Greek flag at Canea. Quite recently they expelled the Moslem deputies out of the Cretan Assembly because they had shown their unwillingness to take t of loyalty to a foreign king. Such are the events which have given rise to the present anxious situation in regard to the affairs of Crete. I have surely said enough to show that whilst the attitude of both Turkey and the Powers has been regular, it has been correct and patient towards the Cretans. It has been correct for both parties concerned. Yet the Cretans at the present moment must to a large extent be held responsible for the present situation.
I assume, and am perfectly confident, that as the Powers have acted with discretion and with good faith with regard to the Cretan question in the past, so the protecting Powers and His Majesty's Government will undoubtedly do, and are

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doing, properly at the present time. I have personally no doubts on that score, but I have one criticism to make in regard to the attitude of His Majesty's Government. Whilst they are doing I am confident what is right—the right hon. Gentleman's declaration yesterday reassured us on that point—they have neglected to make it clear to the other Powers that they are doing right. That is where, in my opinion, His Majesty's Government, to a certain extent, must thank themselves for the storm of misrepresentation which has fallen upon our heads from abroad. Candour no less than secrecy has its place in the armament of diplomacy, and personally, and I think I might speak for everyone on our side of the House, I am sure we are only too anxious to support His Majesty's Government in bringing this thorny question to a final settlement. But this cannot be done unless the Government and the Powers will clearly explain not only the course of their immediate action, but the drift and the purport of their future action over a more extended period. They must make it clear whether they intend that there is to be in the near future union or not. It is impossible to suggest that they do intend it, because such a suggestion would impute to them a bad faith which no one in any part of the House suggests, but as long as there is doubt on that score there will never be a settlement of the Cretan question. I am confident that if there had been a clear and early definition by His Majesty's Government with regard to their policy there would not have been all these misunderstandings and there would have Been less scope for the insiduous misrepresentations which have been made in the European Press, all of which must in a larger or smaller degree tend not only to prejudice us in the eyes of those for whom we are working, but to cause friction and to impair the good relations between ourselves and the other great Powers of Europe.
I would now ask the Government from what standpoint they propose to lock at this question. Surely it must be either from one of hard fact or from one of sentiment. In either case we get the same result. If you look at it from the point of hard fact you may surely ask what benefits the islanders of Crete are likely to get from union with Greece. What can they get that they have not now already got? Crete is anxious for freedom from taxation. The union with Greece will involve her in partnership with very burdensome taxation to which
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the Greeks are now subject. Crete has representative Government. She has autonomy and freedom. Were she united to Greece she would in many respects be very much worse off, and in no respect, as far as I can see, would she be better off. It is almost a comedy now that when, for the first time, it might be a question of pride, at any rate, and not one of shame for Crete to acknowledge Turkish suzerainty, they should choose this moment for attempting to fling themselves into the arms of another Government, which has not yet completely recovered from the condition of chaos and anarchy into which she has recently been plunged. If you look at it from the point of sentiment, you may equally ask what is the real sentiment which underlies the aspirations of the Cretans. Crete has never formed part of Greece. Before she was conquered by the Turks she belonged to Venice, and before she belonged to Venice she belonged to Rome. Is her claim to union one of language? Has every country that has a majority of one language or race ipso facto a right to be annexed to another country that speaks the same language? If so, curious results would be found in Europe and elsewhere. Such a claim would shatter our position in Cyprus, in Malta, and in South Africa. There are more Maltese who speak Italian than English; more Poles in Prussian Poland than Prussians; and more Danes in Schleswig-Holstein than Germans. If the question is one of sentiment, you must choose between Turkish and Greek sentiment. I would remind the House that the question of Crete is really a matter of deep sentiment not only to Greece but to Turkey. It is one that by continual prominence has become better known than many other questions even among the peasants of Anatolia. Turkey has spent blood and treasure enough in securing her title to the island of Crete. When she took the island from the Venetians, she spent no less than twenty years in beseiging the town of Candia, and surely at this moment of Turkish regeneration it could not be said that this sentiment, which was justified even in the reign of Abdul Hamid, should not be more justified now.
But even if this Cretan sentiment was justified by history, which it is not, could it be balanced against the fortunes of constitutional government in Turkey? Few of those who so loudly applauded the first step taken in consitutional government in the Ottoman Empire realised, I

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think, that it was only an easy step on the rough road to reform. The reconciliation of races, the reconstruction of finances, the extermination of rebellion, the institution of justice, the development of trade, had to be begun on an absolutely empty exchequer. Few Members, I think, probably in this House realise the very grave and precarious condition which still remains in Constantinople. Few people realise that at this very moment Turkey is engaged in no less than four campaigns of lesser or greater importance. It is quelling rebellions in places, separated by thousands of miles, in Albania, Yemen, Nedj, and Kurdistan. These are all occupying the attention of the Turkish Government in its attempts to restore order in the country. What would be the effect if fresh hopes an encouragement were given to Crete? I think it might well be that failure in this matter—failure to get an early and rapid settlement—might bring down into ruins the precarious structure which has been painfully built up in Constantinople.
In conclusion I have to point out that the peace of Europe cannot go on being jeopardised by a handful of turbulent people in Crete, or by the rising passions this question evokes among the Turkish people. The solution can be arrived at fairly easily, but it can only be arrived at if the Powers clear away all ambiguity at once and teach not only Crete but Turkey that the first disturbers of the peace after the final settlement has taken place will be held not only actually but financially responsible for the action they take. Let the continued maintenance of absolute autonomy and self-government be assured to the Cretan islanders, but at the same time let the absolute permanence of Turkish suzerainty be equally assured to the Ottoman Government. Let the Cretan officials, and the Cretan officials only, administer the affairs of the Cretan people in the island. The moment any disturbance takes place in the island let it be made clear that foreign troops will most certainly return, that they will return at the expense of the people who have made the trouble, and that they will remain there until the trouble has been quelled and the status quo restored. I believe that when the hopelessness and the futility of all further agitation is once thoroughly understood on both sides, then, and then only, will the Cretan question be finally settled. I hope His Majesty's Government will give us a clear statement not
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only of the trend of their immediate action, but some assurance as to the unchangeable course of the future policy of the protecting Powers in the Island of Crete.
Sir CHARLES W. DILKE: Those of us who hold views diametrically opposed to the views of the hon. Member (Mr. G. A. Lloyd) have not heard without concern the considered and grave reply given yesterday upon this question from the Treasury Bench. But we had practically decided not to interfere with the discretion of the Government in a matter so grave and so dangerous, not as regards war in Turkey—there is very little risk of that— but so grave and so dangerous as regards those relations between the Powers of Southern Europe which involve the interests of peace. If it is not likely to cause war, it may affect those great questions involving the interests of peace. It is not only an embarrassing question, but it is a very dangerous question. It is also a permanent question. The hon. Member must have come recently to his studies of the nationalities of Eastern Europe and to his studies of Roman, Greek, Venetian, and Turkish history. They must have been a little wide and superficial if he thinks it is possible by a Declaration of the Powers to put an end to the aspirations of a fighting people like the Cretans, who have fought throughout their history. It is a remarkable fact that in all the charges made in recent times against the Turks and the Cretans they have not been charged with concealment. They say what they mean, and they are very inconvenient to the Great Powers in their extraordinary plainness. They are a fighting people, and you can no more put an end to their rational aspirations than you could during the whole course of history put an end to the aspirations of Montenegro by the Conferences at Paris and Berlin. The best you can do in such a case is to temporise. Surely it is best to do what you have had to do throughout the ages. You cannot "settle it." The hon. Member thinks that a Declaration by the Powers would settle the question. Does he remember the number of treaties and solemn declarations by the Holy Alliance about Corfu? The Ionian Islanders were not a fighting people, and yet you could not, by any number of declarations as to the suzerainty of the Ionian Republic, terminate the problem which finally was terminated in exactly the opposite way to that which was at one

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time contemplated. I think if the only charge were that the four Powers could not now propose a final settlement of the Cretan question, that charge would pass by very easily. It is not possible, in view of the history of that island, that you can terminate that question.
Mr. LLOYD: I never made the charge at all.
Sir CHARLES DILKE: The hon. Member said very often in his speech that he made no charge against the Government, but he used the word vacillation, and seemed to give examples of what he meant. He made the weightiest charges against the whole of the four Powers, which ought to be disproved. The hon. Member began by saying that he hoped not to render the task of the Government more difficult. One of the difficulties of this Debate is that it is impossible for those who hold strong opinions opposed to those of the hon. Member to sit still, and not attempt to put something on the other side, and yet by saying that something against our wishes, I admit frankly that we render the task more difficult. I speak with a deep sense of responsibility on this occasion, and I shall try to put the case as plainly and with as much freedom from heat of language as it is possible to put it. I shall endeavour to put it in a way which will make the greatest agreement rather than the greatest controversy on such a grave question.
I differ absolutely from many on this side of the House, and I differ absolutely from many things which were said by the hon. Member opposite with regard to being able to decide the fate of nations by their material interests. National aspirations, however disagreeable they may be to the Powers, have to be taken account of as grave facts. You cannot put them down and you cannot prevent those feelings. You cannot affect them by any amount of suggestions that their material interests lie the other way. The only charge the hon. Member thought he made against the Government was that while he considered the four Powers have been acting rightly they had not made it clear to certain other Powers that they were acting rightly. What did he mean by that? He began his speech in language which was thinly veiled by attacking those Powers for interested attempts to break up the arrangements existing between Russia, France, and England. Well, the conclusion is clear that they could only allude to Germany and Austria, and yet he says that
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all he blames our Government for is that they have not made their policy clear to those very Powers which at the beginning of his speech he charged with having, from motives of self interest, disturbed the harmony of the protecting Powers. The assertion he made was that all those attacks in the Austrian Press were made for the purpose of producing mischief among the Powers.
6.0 P.M.
He wants the Government to state what is their ultimate goal. He complains of a policy of vacillation, in which he seems to think we took the lead. His object seems to be to give some assistance to constitutional government, a course which I ventured to support by my cheer; but I read that phrase the other way. I read those difficulties as making it more dangerous to encourage Turkey to set up claims in other directions. He attaches overwhelming importance to what he calls the absolute supremacy of Turkey. What does he mean by that? Is, or is not, Turkey absolutely supreme in the Soudan? What does he mean? Does he mean any vestige of Turkish influence, nomination functionaries or act of government of any kind? He does not.
Mr. LLOYD: I mean what is generally understood by the word "suzerainty."
Sir CHARLES DILKE: What is it?
Mr. LLOYD: It is, I believe, possession of the island; that there should be no question as to whom the island belongs, and that the Turkish flag should be allowed to fly, as it does still on the island.
Sir CHARLES DILKE: On a detached rock, that is one of the absurdities of the status quo. But does the hon. Gentleman think it worth asserting the powers of the Turkish Empire on a question of suzerainty which is one of pure name, when, as I understand him, there is no danger of that suzerainty being impugned? He raises this academic question of a suzerainty which is to be imposed, and when I ask him to translate his words he translates them by words which have no application to suzerainties in the case of other Powers which are occupying portions of the Turkish Empire. Here is a country which was, as he says, once Venetian, and which was in the past century twice Egyptian—once it was given by the Powers to the Egyptian Government— which was twice absolutely, self-governed, having driven everybody from its shore,

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and which afterwards was subjected to invasion after invasion. You cannot apply a term like suzerainty here. You cannot suggest to Turkey with any certainty or wisdom that that suzerainty can be made any more tangible than the suzerainty, of which no one complains, which exists in fact, and which no one is desiring to undo. The hon. Member has stated suzerainty as being everywhere understood to mean an absolute recognition of rule in some form.
Mr. LLOYD: No.
Sir CHARLES DILKE: What does it mean?
Mr. LLOYD: It means what I have already explained. I mean suzerainty and nothing else. Let the right hon. Gentleman decide what he considers suzerainty.
Sir CHARLES DILKE: In Egypt it is one thing; in the Soudan it is another. In both cases there is a suzerainty. In Eastern Roumelia there is still a Turkish suzeraint3T. The hon. Gentleman complained that our policy has been vacillating. As I understand the policy of the four Powers, they stepped in as they did and caused the Turks to yield and withdraw their troops from the island for the sake of Crete and to produce a situation which would enable the Cretans to show how they governed their island, and they accepted de facto a most irregular situation, but not uncommon in portions of the Turkish Empire, until the time came when the weakness, as the hon. Member says, of the Young Turk Government forced them to insist on maintaining everywhere their prestige. That prestige the House generally, I believe, desires to maintain; but it is not promoted by this House accepting statements made to the Turkish Parliament by Turkish Ministers which do not state the historic truth of the events described. The speech of the Grand Vizier of the Turkish Parliament was the subject of Notes by the Powers which have been published by other Governments, but not by ours. The speech of the Grand Vizier was the subject, I believe, as regards what he said of our own action, of representation—at least, it is very reasonable to think so—by our Government. That speech encouraged false hopes by the Turkish Parliament, and it weakened, I think not slightly, the position of the Turkish Parliament against
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those who do not believe in the new réyime. Is it wise, is it safe, to encourage a feeling which is easily interpreted to mean that we are going to give them back a real and effective rule in Crete? It is not within the power of the Powers to do that. Nobody is going to do it. It will not be done, and by raising the illusion we do not seem to be the friends of constitutional government in Turkey, but in the long run we only weaken it by showing how the weakening of its prestige has been possible. Because everyone knows— it is idle to conceal the fact—that the Turkish Parliament is one which does not altogether possess the confidence of the strong old fanatical Mahomedan element in Turkey. It is very natural that it should be so, but they will not gain by being forced into demands from the Powers, which, as a matter of fact, Europe will not allow to be granted. They will have to accept this fact. Does my hon. Friend think that either this Government or France or Italy, for example, is going to assist or is even going to allow the resumption of direct Turkish rule in Crete or in any other country in which it has now ceased?
Mr. REES: Does my right hon. Friend deny that the Government of Turkey is a military despotism, and nothing else, at this moment?
Sir CHARLES DILKE: I am afraid I have not made myself understood. I do not touch on that question.
Mr. REES: I do.
Sir CHARLES DILKE: I carefully avoid it. I do not think it is right and I do not think it would be wise to give individual opinions about what is the character of the Government in Turkey. I only say that, accepting what is said now in this House, that it is an experiment which we heartily desire to see succeed if possible, then it is not to strengthen but to weaken it in the long run if we seem to support, by admitting its possibility, such a policy as that described by the Grand Vizier the other day. There is not a Member of this House who thinks it is possible to impose any kind of effective Turkish rule within that island, or within any of those territories which before the present Turkish Parliament came into existence had already ceased to be governed by Turkey. With regard to vacillation, the hon. Member has brought in the various

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steps which were taken, which were naturally of a curious kind—unprecedented if you like. Administration in the name of the King of Greece, and a number of isolated facts of that kind constituted new departures in this case, and the lion. Member knows that long before the Powers withdrew their troops, and long before they declared the Cretan Government, all those events already had occurred, and the new event is the one event alone that has happened since. As regards that, I would like on the one hand to state that every friend of the Cretans believes they made a mistake in not freely admitting the Turkish Moslem members; but, on the other hand, they firmly believe they were carrying out the status quo, because the Turkish Members had not made the protest on these occasions which they made on the present occasion, and because that protest was undoubtedly, as I believe our Government has put on record, prepared in Constantinople, and sent out for the purpose of making trouble in the island. It is not my wish to defend that action. It was undoubtedly a mistaken action. But there is this to say for it, that I am sure my right hon. Friend will feel that no more statesmanlike administration can be expected in an island like Crete—as there is in existence no more statesmanlike administrator—than that of the gentleman who is the virtual Prime Minister of Crete. He saw the tactical error of what happened, but he showed that, after all, it was only what had existed before the troops had been withdrawn from Crete, so that I hesitate to say that I find sufficient ground for my right hon. Friend's statement yesterday that the Cretans had violated the status quo. On this question the French say it is the status quo of 1908, and, as we put it last year that there was the status quo of 1908, when we talk about the status quo in 1910, we may be supposed to mean the status quo of 1908; but, as a matter of fact, the French now admit they meant the status quo of 1906. That is the answer. There has been no recent change of action, and there has been only one event which we all regret. But that swearing of allegiance to the King of Greece by members of that Parliament was, if you like, anticipated by the Powers in their own Notes to the King of Greece about the future of the island of Crete, and by then asking the King of Greece to send his son to govern the place, and afterwards asking him to send his former Prime Minister to govern the island.
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What is to be the blame that this House wishes to throw on the Government? What can this House usefully do in connection with that? In the first place, I think it is well to do what we can to dispel alarm as to anything like war issuing from these events. I do not think anyone seriously believes that there is the slightest risk that the Turks will be so ill-advised as to attempt to restore their authority in an island where even in the height of their military power they never succeeded in firmly establishing it. It is most unlikely for the additional reason that the Turks are already engaged in a desperate struggle, and they have other wars on their hands. But nothing is more dangerous than an attempt to settle this question now. It has been a dangerous question for many years, and it is especially dangerous now. Anything more dangerous than an attempt at present to settle it out of hand I cannot well conceive. They are the best friends who clearly show that there is no chance of a return to the status quo, and those who desire a practical solution in any sense are those who, I think, do not really wish well to the Turkish Government. The hon. Member has tried to establish a vacillation that does not exist. The vacillation which he seems to see has been only evidenced by a series of events very difficult to justify, but accepted by all the Powers because of the immense difficulty in the way of a solution of this problem. Those who view the matter in a sense exactly opposite to that of the hon. Member I think would prefer if this question had not been raised to-day at all, and would desire to see it left, as far as possible, in the hands of the Government, to be dealt with upon this temporising plan which avoids any attempt at a solution at this moment impossible to find, our policy being guided neither by selfishness nor by a complete disregard of the circumstances.
Mr. KETTLE: I do not think I need make any apology for referring to the question of the government and the future of Egypt. I do not know whether the Secertary of State for Foreign Affairs quite realises yet the effect or the importance of his own declaration of policy. I was not myself present at the Debate on Monday, but I have carefully read his declaration of policy, and he appears to have stated:—
"I cannot talk any more about self-governing institutions in Egypt so long as that agitation against British occupation continues."

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He then went on to indicate the circumstances in which, in order to repress the political movement, he would have recourse to an army of occupation. I want to know from him a little more definitely what it is that he precisely means. There is to be no further reform in Egypt if the agitation against British occupation goes on. Does he mean that any newspaper which publishes an article, an argumentative and reasoned article, tracing to its historical origin the occupation of Egypt and reminding this country of its repeated promises that there is to be a development of self-government so as to lead up to the evacuation, will constitute a breach of the condition of things that the Foreign Secretary demands? Since the recent Debate we have had through Reuter's agency the first fruits of the policy of repression. A telegram published this morning says:—
"The Council of Ministers to-day passed in its original shape the measure giving jurisdiction to the Assize Courts in all Press cases, and also the measure for the repression of illegal secret societies. The Ministers have thus overruled the action of the Legislative Council in rejecting the former law and proposing emasculating amendments. They also rejected amendments proposed by the Legislative Council in the School Discipline Bill. The firm attitude of the Government in resisting the Legislative Council's pretensions to weaken legislation necessary for preventing political crime creates an excellent impression locally, as showing that the authorities are determined to repress Nationalist violence and disorder in all forms."
I want to know whether the Foreign Secretary's speech was intended as and is to be treated as an ultimatum. Has he definitely made up his mind to bolt and bar the door to everybody in Egypt who believes in the peaceful development of self-government in that country? I may remind the Foreign Secretary that in the policy upon which he has entered he has carried with him, indeed, the approval of those newspapers which are not the organs of Liberalism, but he has incurred the rebuke and condemnation of the few papers like the "Manchester Guardian" that in this country do stand for the real traditions of Liberal foreign policy. What was the political philosophy and what was the policy announced by the Foreign Secretary? A policy of repression founded upon a philosophy of violence. The Foreign Secretary rebukes the violence into which certain persons associated with the Nationalist movement have unhappily been brought. What is his own justification for the presence of the English nation in Egypt? He appealed to no moral sanction, and all that the Leader of the Opposition and the Foreign Secretary had to say was that the English Were the
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dominant race, and they were there for the good of the Egyptians. The English seem to see that more clearly than the Egyptians do. They say the English are the dominant race, and that there they are and there they will stay. It is, I think, a somewhat unhappy thing perhaps that this total change of policy in Egypt is a betrayal of the hopes held out by the Liberal party to the Egyptians immediately after the affair of the Suez Canal concession. There has been much capital made of the assassination of Boutros Pasha. Sir Eldon Gorst—against whom, by the way, a campaign of the greatest possible baseness was recently commenced in the Imperialistic Press of this country, which now finds material to praise him—has without a particle of proof insinuated that the leaders of the Nationalist party in Egypt were, as he said, morally responsible for the unhappy assassination. I think I remember an instance in Irish history—that of the Phoenix Park murders—in regard to which exactly the same Press, the same organisation of opinion, tried to destroy and ruin the Nationalist movement in Ireland by an attempt to fix responsibility for that crime on the leaders of the Nationalist movement. The true leaders of the genuine Nationalist spirit in Egypt are not in any degree responsible for events of that kind. No particle of truth has been adduced to associate them with the assassination in any way.
Speaking as one who feels honoured by the personal friendship of some of these gentlemen, I say that the sentence of Sir Eldon Gorst, re-echoed in this House, makes a grave charge against men who are not here and in a position to answer what is a piece of unparalleled cowardice. What is the real origin of this recent development? It is this. When it was proposed to extend the Suez Canal concession, Sir Eldon Gorst, for the very first time since the occupation, determined, in a straightforward way, to take Egyptian opinion on the question. After he had taken this step—a step which created greater hope in Egypt than any event that had happened during the occupation—the campaign of which I have spoken was let loose in the Imperialistic Press of this country. One read articles from week to week in the sixpenny Press, and from day to day in the halfpenny Press, demanding the instant recall of Sir Eldon Gorst. The General Assembly considered the Suez Canal concession. It reported upon lines hostile to

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what apparently was the design and purpose, at any rate, of the Imperialistic section of opinion in this country. You have now torn to pieces all the promises made, all the hopes held out, and you have embarked upon a policy which is one of repression. What is to be the future in Egypt? The "Manchester Guardian," in an article this morning, has delineated the psychology of the circumstances with which the Foreign Secretary has to deal. It said:—
"No Englishman wants to scuttle out of Egypt, livery Egyptian worth his salt, if it were put to him, would say that he was against the occupation."
I want to know what is the prospect open to the Egyptian worth his salt—to the Egyptian who is as much concerned for the peaceful development of representative institutions as any man in Western countries? What is the course open? The Press Laws are to be made more drastic in defiance of the view of the Legislative Council. Then special legislation is to be passed for the repression of political societies; and this policy, as I say, is not supported by any moral sanction whatever or any attempt to appeal to moral sanction. Can anything be more unhappy than the auspices under which this policy is launched? The Foreign Secretary, departing entirely, I think, from the antecedents of his office, saw the draft of a speech to be made by a distinguished foreigner who happened to be passing through Egypt, and he employed that distinguished foreigner as his mouthpiece for the enunciation of a policy which he should have had the courage to announce himself. What did it come to? The Foreign Secretary told the House the other day that he had consulted with Mr. Roosevelt before the speech was delivered, and that he knew what Mr. Roosevelt was going to say, and was glad Mr. Roosevelt was going to say it. Is that a courteous fashion; is that a discreet fashion in which to launch this new policy? When Mr. Roosevelt was in Egypt he followed the track of a good many distinguished foreigners, we have had in Ireland. He saw the Dublin Castle of Egypt, and he learnt the occupation view of the occupation. As for Mr. Roosevelt, he does not seem to me to be a person of very great importance, an unrivalled master of platitudes and attitudes, a sort of mixture of Tartuffe and Tartarin of Tarascon, who will very soon be forgotten. If a policy of this kind was to be announced it ought to have been announced by the Foreign
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Secretary from his own lips, and upon his own responsibility. In the philosophy with which the Foreign Secretary and the Leader of the Opposition have recommended their policy, I notice that Front Bench leaders are always readiest to agree when they are both wrong.
The Leader of the Opposition made the astonishing statement that amongst Eastern nations there had been no instance of a movement towards the development of representative self-government. Did he never hear of Turkey, to which the Egyptians look as a model for their own national evolution? In the Debate which has just occupied the attention of the House we had the declaration from the Tory benches that you were to confirm Turkey, an Oriental nation that knows nothing about self-government, and that has not developed in that direction, in the suzerainty over Crete. A contradiction of that kind cannot survive more than a brief examination. I have always been deeply interested in and concerned as to the future of Egypt. We in Ireland have discerned in that country something that seemed in certain respects, at any rate, parallel to our own experience—in each case an ancient civilisation, in each case high aspirations, in each case deep views. We did not ask for any sudden and abrupt action. I entirely agree that progress in Egypt might very well have been, and under the circumstances ought to have been, gradual. We were no advocates of or apologists for violence, but when there is talk about violence, and about the unfortunate assassination of Boutros Pasha, I venture to remember the executions at Denshawi. We are concerned now because the misguided person who was guilty of that assassination is not yet hanged. At Denshawi there was no such delay. The scaffold was erected before the trial was con-eluded. At any rate, we looked forward for a possible development that would have produced a strong and prosperous-Egypt bound up in ties of friendship to this country. That was the hope upon which every person who had any feeling for Egypt builded. The Foreign Secretary has now destroyed that, and, if you will, for ever. He has issued, through the lips of Mr. Roosevelt, an ultimatum to the Egyptian Nationalists. I now have only to ask him what line of action does he expect that a self-respecting Egyptian believer in an Egyptian nationality is to pursue if he is at the same time to respect the conditions

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laid down by the Foreign Secretary and to do what he conceives to be his duty to his own country and to his own particular and special type of civilisation. The Foreign Secretary must give a somewhat more definite declaration. I think there are many questions of foreign policy during his tenure of office on which he has taken an anti-Liberal line of policy, and I think upon this question of the future government of Egypt he has been guilty of an entire and complete betrayal of all Liberal traditions.
Sir HENRY DALZIEL: Before the right hon. Gentleman replies in the Debate I should-like to make one or two observations upon the speech which he delivered on Monday evening, a speech which I venture to term a most remarkable speech. I hope he will believe me when I say that I rise in no spirit of captious criticism. I am a believer in the foreign policy of the right hon. Gentleman, and have always consistently supported him for the past twenty years in this House at any time he had any share in the administration of the Foreign Office. I believe, as a Liberal, the right hon. Gentleman is one of our greatest political assets, and I have said so in the country in different parts and on different occasions. As a democrat I am grateful to him for the fact that he has given us the priceless blessings of peace during his tenure of office, while at the same time maintaining the prestige and the dignity of our country in every quarter of the world. He has done all this without any self-advertisement and without any self-glorification, and for that we are grateful to him. Therefore I think I can truly say that it is in a spirit of regret I find myself directly opposed to him on one point of his present action and present policy. Let me go further, and say that I have complete confidence in him in regard to the present situation in Egypt. I believe that the right hon. Gentleman, if left to himself, without any internal or external influence, that it will be better for the future position of that country, but I express my regret, and my great regret, that he should have justified and delighted in the interference of a stranger in what was after all a matter of British domestic policy. The right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition described it as "a British problem." I was disposed in the first place to take a charitable view of the right hon. Gentleman's position. I imagined, in his defence of
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Mr. Roosevelt's extraordinary action, that he was actuated by considerations of national courtesy, and, having recognised that Mr. Roosevelt had made a mistake, that he was prepared to help him to get out of it as easily and as well as he could. But that charitable view can prevail no longer. We know now, to my great astonishment, that that speech was delivered with the full approval and after full consultation with the Foreign Secretary. I say that that is a most remarkable position.
Did the right hon. Gentleman make any suggestions of alterations to Mr. Roosevelt when Mr. Roosevelt submitted his manuscript, as I presume he did, because a general talk on matters of that delicate character would have been of no value whatever. Did he suggest any alteration when ex - President Roosevelt said that we had erred in vital particulars in regard to our policy? I would like to know whether he made any suggestion with regard to that. Did he ask what those vital points were? Because this is a matter that this House should know, and more especially with regard to the future administration of Egypt, where the faults in our policy have been, who has committed them, and who is responsible for them? Is it the man on the spot or the Minister in charge? We have not any information whatever from the right hon. Gentleman with regard to that most important statement of Mr. Roosevelt, when he tells us that he stated that if we could not really successfully maintain law and order we ought to get out. Did the right hon. Gentleman suggest any alteration in that statement. Did he think it was courteous for a man who had been President of a great friendly State, and who, after all, is a politician, talking to America as well as here? Did the right hon. Gentleman encourage him, was that the cause of his delight that he expressed when he told us if we could not do better we ought to get out? I would like to know whether in that particular respect the right hon. Gentleman suggested any alteration whatever?
I say, the right hon. Gentleman in encouraging the intervention of a foreign Statesman in our domestic concerns, in assisting him to be a contributor to our party Debates in this House, as was evident by the Debate the other night when nearly every speaker supported Mr. Roosevelt, I say he is instituting a new and most dangerous precedent. I go further

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and I say that in the position that he has taken up with regard to Mr. Roosevelt, he does not represent the Liberal party either in this House or in the country. That is a strong statement to make, but it is not the first time that the Front Bench has not represented the Liberal party in the House or in the country. On two vital occasions they were wrong, and on two vital occasions they had to be brought into line with Liberal opinion. That is true. I therefore submit to the right hon. Gentleman to contemplate the possibility that in this matter also he may not represent Liberal opinion either in this House or in the country. Of course, I always exclude when I say that the hon. Member for Montgomery Boroughs (Mr. Rees).
Mr. REES: May I ask who made the hon. Gentleman the accredited representative of the Liberal party, or of the country?
Sir HENRY DALZIEL: I said nothing of the kind. I did not claim to be the representative of anyone but myself.
Mr. REES: The party. The country.
Sir HENRY DALZIEL: I beg the hon. Gentleman's pardon. I did not claim to speak for the party or the country, or for him under any circumstances, a party by himself, leaders, followers and supporters, but I venture to claim, as a humble Member of the Liberal party, the right to express my opinion on what the opinion of the party and the country is. That is all I claim. I speak and represent no one in this House but my Constituents, and I have no right to speak for a moment but for myself. Therefore, I say, in this matter the right hon. Gentleman does not represent in my humble judgment Liberal opinion. How can we get a test of what Liberal opinion is? Can the right hon. Gentleman point to any Liberal representative of any standing whatever, who has endorsed either in this House or in the country, his attitude in encouraging Mr. Roosevelt to interfere in our domestic policy? I say he cannot. I take another test; can the right hon. Gentleman show me one representative Liberal newspaper in any part of the country which has supported him in his attitude? I say he cannot. I say that every representative paper in the party has criticised him and condemned him for introducing this new principle in our politics. Even the most loyal of the supporters, the "Westminster Gazette," which sometimes supports the
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Government even when they are wrong, with all its influence, has been used in criticism of the right hon. Gentleman. That is one test of Liberal opinion. In my opinion this new principle has not the support of the party. It is a dangerous innovation, and I would like to know how far the right hon. Gentleman thinks it is going to take him. If we are to have Mr. Roosevelt balancing his judgment in the scale in matters of this kind it cannot rest there. Any other distinguished foreigner will be fully entitled to express his opinion on any question of party politics in this country, and I say that the outlook will indeed be of a grievous character. A bad precedent has been set, and I am sorry it has been done by a Liberal Foreign Minister.
Then we have the attitude of the right lion. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition. It is curious that when the Front Benches agree there always seems some trouble or some mistake being made. The Leader of the Opposition also hails with delight the interference of Mr. Roosevelt in our affairs. The right hon. Gentleman was, I believe, one of Mr. Roosevelt's most enthusiastic applauders at the Guildhall. How far does the right hon. Gentleman and his followers go in supporting this new precedent? I wonder what their attitude would have been if Mr. Roosevelt had dealt with another matter? He is an avowed and uncompromising Home Ruler in regard to Ireland. Suppose he had dealt with Ireland instead of with Egypt. We have been in Egypt some twenty-five years in Ireland over a hundred. Suppose Mr. Roosevelt had said here, as he has said in America, that we are responsible for misgovernment in Ireland, that our government there has reduced the population to an enormous extent, and that we have to face a discontented and disaffected people, the great majority of whom are against our rule. Suppose he had said, "Unless you can do better in Ireland why do you not get out?" Would the party opposite have given Mr. Roosevelt their enthusiastic approval then? Not at all. Mr. Roosevelt is applauded and welcomed only when he says something useful for party purposes or for the immediate question of the moment. I object to Mr. Roosevelt's interference quite as much when he praises our policy as when he condemns it. Suppose the Leader of the Opposition went to receive the freedom of New York and made a speech Ihere—
Mr. SPEAKER: I would remind the hon. Member that Mr. Roosevelt's salary is not included in the Estimates.
Sir HENRY DALZIEL: I wish it were; I would do my best to prevent any of it being obtained. What I am attempting to do is to bring home the responsibility to the Foreign Secretary, whose salary is included. He knew that Mr. Roosevelt was going to interfere; it was with the full approval of, and after consultation with the right hon. Gentleman, that Mr. Roosevelt interfered; it was after his views had been discussed; and I want to know how far the right hon. Gentleman suggested any alteration in what Mr. Roosevelt proposed to say. Will the right hon. Gentleman justify the interference of other American politicians in our domestic concerns? Once you allow one politician to do it I do not see where you are going to draw the line.
What has been the effect of that speech? Has it done any good? In my opinion it has done grievous harm. What Egypt requires at the present moment is a period of rest, and I consider that the right hon. Gentleman will deal with Egypt the more successfully according to the amount of freedom that he is given. This very Debate is a condemnation of the interference of Mr. Roosevelt. I doubt whether but for the Guildhall speech this question would have been before the country in the present prominent manner. The British electors did not want this great issue of Egypt to be brought before them at the present time. They wanted the right hon. Gentleman to go on with his cautious policy, doing justice firmly and fairly towards the population of Egypt, and they believe that he is capable of settling that problem without any external assistance from America or elsewhere. If Mr. Roosevelt's speech simply referred to the past, it was unwise, because no good purpose could be served. Criticisms of the past are useless for practical purposes. If it referred to the future, the speech has been absolutely useless, because the right hon. Gentleman told us on Monday that no new departure is necessary. In my opinion, the speech was bad taste, bad manners and bad policy. It was another example of the attempts which are made in America to twist the lion's tail. Mr. Roosevelt was talking to his party in America more than to the electors in this country. He not only twisted the lion's tail, but, as a friend of mine put it, he actually went into the lion's den. He twisted the lion's tail to
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the delight of the right hon. Gentleman, and every time the lion gave an extra squirm the right hon. Gentleman gave an extra indication of applause. This encouragement of Mr. Roosevelt is bad policy; it is dangerous for the future; and, so far as I am concerned, I enter my humble but respectful protest against it.
Mr. G. A. ARBUTHNOT: I desire to ask the Secretary of State if he will make a statement as to the policy of His Majesty's Government with regard to railway construction in China? I bring forward this matter for two reasons. The first is the mystification in which some of us have been thrown by answers to questions put to the right hon. Gentleman. The second, that there prevails at present an impression that our interests in China are not being adequately supported by His Majesty's Government. I do not say that that impression is correct. I am not proposing to build up an indictment against the right hon. Gentleman. I simply ask him for information which I hope will allay the apprehensions that are felt. The questions to which I refer have to deal with what is known as the Chinchow-Aigun Railway scheme. It has been proposed by Anglo-American enterprise to build a railway from Chinchow to Aigun on the Chinese-Siberian frontier. China desires that this railway shall be built. The preliminary contract was signed in October last by the Viceroy of Manchuria on behalf of China. It was submitted to the three Imperial Departments of Foreign Affairs, Finance, and Communications. It passed speedily through the necessary stages, and was confirmed by Imperial Rescript in January last. I will read two short extracts to show why China desires that this railway shall be built. The "Economist" of 12th February, 1910, says:—
"From this large and ambitions railway project China stands to benefit by the opening up of thousands of square miles of excellent grain-growing country, to develop which she proposes to import large numbers of colonists drawn from the more congested districts of her Empire. Within a few years the resulting development of agricultural land should provide produce for exportation running into many hundreds of thousands of pounds worth annually, besides supporting a growing and thriving population."
The "Far Eastern Review" says:—
"The vast fertile regions of Manchuria and Mongolia mean to China what the north-west does to America—a national granary to supply what the worn-out lands in other sections of the country are incapable of doing, and provide homes and farms to the struggling millions who are otherwise doomed to eke out a miserable and precarious existence in the congested and unproductive districts of the Southern provinces."

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Those are the reasons why China wishes to have this railway built. A point which has an important bearing on my argument is that there has been absolutely no concessions. China is granting concessions to nobody. There is simply a contract to build the railway at a given price, and when the contract is completed the railway will be handed over to China. Since January last, when the preliminary contract was authorised by Imperial Eescript, protests have been lodged on different grounds by Japan and Russia. Japan does not object in toto to the construction of the railway. She is willing that the railway should be constructed provided she is given a reasonable share in financing the same. For some time there was difficulty in obtaining from Japan her definition of a "reasonable share." When at last she defined her conditions they were such that China could not accept, because they went further than the question of finance and involved control. Russia also objected to the construction of the railway, but on strategic grounds. Questions have been put to the right hon. Gentleman asking that in these circumstances some support might be given to the British interests involved.
7.0 P.M.
So far as we have been able to gather from his reply, the impression—I do not say it is a right one—is that the Government consider it advisable to support Russia and Japan regardless of British commercial interests. The two reasons given for this are: Firstly, that the question of this railway is one of comparatively small importance, and that it does not very largely affect the interests of this country; secondly, and more important, that His Majesty's Government are unable to take an active part in supporting British interests owing to the provisions of the Anglo-Russian Agreement of 1899. So far as the first reason advanced is concerned, I will refer the Foreign Secretary to the statement made at the annual meeting of the China Association by Sir Charles Dudgeon, the chairman of committee, who is a great authority. He stated, in very emphatic language:—
"That this persisting thwarting of railway enterprise in Manchuria is a matter of high concern to all trade interests."
I think it must be obvious that the construction of a railway of this kind is a matter of the very highest importance to British trade interests. You are opening up a vast territory which will be available for British enterprise and British
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capital, and there are all the advantages which are obtained by the contracts for the material of the railways and employment which would be given to British labour. For once I make a statement upon which Tariff Reformers and Free Traders are agreed, when I say that it is in the great neutral markets of the world, outside our own Empire, that we have to look for the greatest development of our trade. Certainly it seems to me a very remarkable reason for the Government to have advanced that the construction of this railway is a matter of small importance to this country. Their second reason that they are precluded by reasons of the Anglo-Russian Agreement of 1899 is even more remarkable still. The hon. Gentleman, in reply to my right hon. Friend the Member for Hammersmith, stated that—
"His Majesty's Government are unable to take an active part in supporting Britisli interests, owing to the provisions of the Anglo-Russian Agreement of 1899."
I have looked up that agreement, and I find it consists of an exchange of notes between Sir Charles Scott, His Majesty's Ambassador at St. Petersburg, and Count Mauravieff in the year 1898. By the terms of that agreement Great Britain undertook not to seek for railway concessions north of the Great Wall of China on condition that Russia on her part did not attempt to seek for railway concessions in the Yangtse Valley. I, will ask the right hon. Gentleman what in the world that has got to do with the Chinchow-Aigun Railway? China is granting concessions to nobody. There is not one penny piece of concession in it. It was a contract simply for the construction of a railway, and as soon as the railway is completed all ves-tage of foreign interests vanishes and disappears. The Foreign Secretary may have very good reasons—I have no doubt he has—for the attitude adopted by the Government in this matter, but I cannot think that the reasons he has advanced in this House, namely, that the Government are precluded by the Anglo Russian Agreement of 1899, are valid, for the reason stated is one that it is difficult to reconcile with the actual facts. I believe that the argument is still further invalidated by reason of the recent claim successfully put forward by Germany to participate in the loan to finance the Hankow-Szechuen Railway, which is to be constructed within the sphere of British influence. This is under the agreement made in 1898, which is precisely similar in its general terms to that of the Anglo-Russian agreement of 1899.

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There was this difference, that the agreement made with Germany consists of an arrangement between two financial groups, whereas the other consisted of an exchange of Notes between two Powers. I think that the right hon. Gentleman will admit that the agreement between the German financial house and the English financial house received the approval of His Majesty's Government. Lord Salisbury actually gave instructions in 1898 to the Minister at Pekin to obtain certain concessions on the strength of that agreement. Why, therefore, should the nonexistence of a concession hold good in one case and not in the other?
Finally I would ask the right hon. Gentleman whether it is not a fact that this Anglo-Russian Agreement of 1899 is out of date, or is, at all events, very considerably modified by subsequent treaties, by the Portsmouth Treaty of Peace, by the Anglo-Japanese Treaty of Alliance, and by the Chinese-Japanese Treaty of 1905? These are subsequent to this agreement, and they lay down the policy of "equal opportunity" and "the open door." It is desirable that a fuller explanation should be given of the views of His Majesty's Government as to how the position in the Far East is denned by these treaties. I would like to ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he will say whether the principles laid down by the international treaties are subservient to the Anglo-Russian Agreement of 1899, which consisted of nothing more than an exchange of Notes between two Powers? Then as to the question of spheres of influence. I think that the answer which the right hon. Gentleman gave to a Member on this side of the House, taken in conjunction with the facts I have already mentioned this evening, call for some further elucidation from the Government as to the relationship between the old doctrine of spheres of influence and the new doctrine which was laid down by these treaties. The Foreign Secretary, in reply to a question asked him by one of my hon. Friends, said:—
"The principle of spheres of influence regarding the railway concessions in China have never been formally repudiated."
It is perfectly true that, so far as I know, this principle has never been formally repudiated. At the same time it has no doubt been very considerably modified by the treaties to which I have referred. What is the policy of His Majesty's Gov-
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ernment in relation to the whole question of concessions? Both Russia and Japan have shown certain signs of impatience at the restraining influence of the policy of equal opportunity. The fact appears to be that the control of the Manchurian Railway from the apex of the Liaotung Peninsula to the Siberian frontier is a pretext to interfere with the sovereignty of China. I should like to ask the right hon. Gentleman whether this interference meets with the approval of His Majesty's Government? I would ask him to give us some information as to what is the relationship between what I have always considered the old doctrine of spheres of influence and the new doctrine laid down by the treaties I have named. No doubt the right hon. Gentleman will have noticed that the attitude of this country has given rise to considerable hostile comment in America. During the last week or two there have been statements in some of the papers that a new agreement is to be entered into between Russia and Japan, and that this country is taking a part in it. The Japanese Press are answerable for that statement. Mention has been made of another region, I presume Mongolia. If it be true that the trend of events in the Far East at the present time is for Russia to surrender to Japan her interests in Manchuria on condition that Japan assists her to obtain a free hand in Mongolia, then I think the interests of this country are enormously affected. With an extension from Russia's Trans-Siberian railway across the Gobi Desert, over the great caravan route to Kalgan, Russian influence would extend all the way from St. Petersburg to Hankow, in the very heart of China. All these are questions which are occupying at the present time the minds of some who are interested in the Far East. They are all questions, I think, which are raised by the answers that have been given by the right hon. Gentleman in connection with the Chinchow-Aigun Railway. The area I have covered is a very large one, and I have covered it in a very short time. I cannot expect that the right hon. Gentleman, with the many interests that he has to watch, will be able to make a very full and detailed reply. I have brought up this matter not with any desire to build up an attack upon the right hon. Gentleman, but to ask for information in order to allay certain misapprehensions, and to clear away what I believe to be certain misunderstandings which exist.
The SECRETARY of STATE for FOREIGN AFFAIRS (Sir Edward Grey): I am aware that I can speak only once in this Debate, and that by rising now I exhaust my right to address the House. I would not on that ground wish to influence any other Members who may desire to speak on the question which has been raised. I would not have risen had it not been for the fact that the amount of material that has been introduced during the last two or three hours is as much, and perhaps more, than I can without difficulty deal with in a single speech. It covers a good deal of ground. In some of the questions raised very delicate ground has been covered. I must follow speakers into that ground, bearing in mind as I do so—especially with regard to the subject of Crete—that I shall be dealing with a question on which the susceptibilities of some other nationalities are at the present time far more sensitive than are our own. One never knows how far one is going back into history in Crete, especially in view of recent discoveries. I will not go back far into the history of this Cretan Question. I do not think I can usefully do so without a risk of adding to the susceptibilities that already exist. With regard to the existing situation, let me commence my recital of our view of the situation by recalling that under the old régime in Turkey the Powers were forced to intervene. Eventually four Powers found themselves left with the responsibility of establishing some order in Crete. That resulted in the autonomy of Crete under the guidance, and with the consent of the four Powers. But a pledge was given to the Turkish Government at the time that although the four powers undertook the occupation of Crete, there should be no annexation to Greece under the present circumstances. Since then circumstances have changed. The old régime in Turkey has passed away, and a new régime has come in. That is a change of circumstances, but it is not a change of circumstances which which makes it reasonable or possible for the Powers to abandon their promise of not permitting annexation to Greece. On the contrary, the fact that this change has been one from the old régime to the new régime is every reason why the four Powers in occupation of Crete should show increased regard for the susceptibilities and prestige of Turkey in any settlement that they make—not less regard, but more. Now that is what governs the present situation. There
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can be no new definite solution, for which the hon. Member for Staffordshire pleads, of the Cretan Question, without consultation with Turkey, and in the meantime the four Powers are bound to see that the status quo is maintained in Crete and not altered by the Cretans in a way which would be hurtful to the feelings or damaging to the prestige of Turkey, which is the suzerain Power. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for the Forest of Dean said with some truth that there has been some confusion as to what the status quo was. The oath of allegiance to the King of Greece was taken by members of the Cretan Assembly by Cretan people not for the first time, but the Powers never recognised that as something which was done with their consent nor as forming part of the status quo which they recognised and intended to maintain. As long as it remained an oath taken voluntarily by certain people who desired to take it it was an empty oath without any practical effect. But when it came to be a question of the Cretan Assembly refusing to admit members unless they took that oath, then undoubtedly the status quo was being impaired in Crete not in theory only but in practice, and the first thing we have demanded of the Cretan Executive is that Cretan members elected to the Assembly, in this instance Mussulman members, should be admitted to that Assembly with full rights without having any oath of this kind imposed upon them and that Cretan Mussulman functionaries and Cretan Mussulman officials should not have it made a condition of the performance of their functions or receipt of their salaries that they should take any oath of that kind. Crete has its autonomy; it has nothing to complain of as regards its liberties in its own affairs at the present moment. It owes that autonomy to the Powers, and the least we can expect from the Cretans is that they should show to the Powers to whom they owe that autonomy the very moderate consideration which we ask when we say that they should maintain that autonomy without altering the status quo to the disadvantage of Turkey.
I know sentiment is very strong in Crete in favour of annexation by Greece, but Turkey has her sentiment, too. My right hon. Friend the Member for the Forest of Dean said the Cretans were a fighting people. Yes, Sir, but the Turks are also a fighting people. Crete has got her liberty and her autonomy,

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and I say it would be unreasonable, and, in the interests of the Cretans themselves most unwise, if they were to push their sentiments to such lengths as to endanger the peace of that part of the world. They have provoked and given provocation to Turkey by repeated attempts to alter the status quo. We have had difficulty with regard to the Greek flag last year, and had to use force to restore the status quo on that point. The taking of the oath was also an alteration of the status quo—an alteration of the status quo not recognised by the Powers, and the mere fact that the Powers did not intervene because it was not a practical question does certainly add force to the Turkish protest against any alteration and the status quo that would have any practical effect.
The Cretans will have their chance of reconciling themselves to the status quo and keeping their autonomy without giving offence to Turkey. The four Powers made a communication to them quite recently—this month—with regard to the treatment of Mussulmans and the oath. We have demanded that this violation of the status quo should be rectified, and the four Powers will have to undertake the duty of, if not rectified, of seeing that the violation of the status quo does not continue by Cretan subjects. If the four Powers had failed in that task, or if they were not to undertake that task, if the Cretans insist upon violating the status quo at the expense of Turkish sentiment, then undoubtedly it might be forced upon the Powers to find a definite solution, which could only be undertaken in consultation with the Turkish Government, and which, so far as I can judge, would be less favourable to Cretan aspirations than the status quo they have at the present moment.
They cannot expect that for the sake of their sentiments they can push things to such lengths as to endanger the peace of the Near East; they cannot expect that Europe, called upon to take the matter in hand, should favour their aspiration. Europe would be bound, in taking the question in hand, to pay some regard to Turkish susceptibilities and to insist upon some definite solution of the Cretan question. And, so far as annexation to Greece and the particular aspirations of Cretans in that respect are concerned, it would probably be less favourable than the existing state of things. But before
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that is undertaken there will not only be four Powers but six Powers to be consulted. If there is to be a definite change in the status of Crete, then Germany and Austria would have to be consulted as well as the four Powers who are at present in charge of the status quo and have been in occupation of Crete. The hon. Member for Staffordshire complained of the misrepresentations which have appeared in the German and Austrian Press with regard to our attitude in the matter. I do not think I have seen all these misrepresentations, but I have seen reference to some of them. The hon. Member thought His Majesty's Government was to blame for these misrepresentations, and that they were directed against us because we had not been more explicit in explaining our views. We have been just as explicit as any of the other three Powers. If the other Powers have not been explicit enough, why are these misrepresentations only directed against us? Why have they brought in the person of our Sovereign, and why have they left the attitude of the other three Powers alone? What the hon. Member called misrepresentations are entirely untrue statements, without any foundation whatever, that our attitude has changed on this question, and, therefore, they are just the kind of untrue statements which, when circulated in the foreign Press, are bound to make general international good feeling more difficult. They are absolutely untrue, and, though I do not intend to speak at any length at the present moment on Crete, I am, at any rate, glad to have the opportunity of saying there is no truth whatever in the misrepresentations which have found credence in certain quarters abroad, and which are calculated, if believed, to give considerable offence to a large portion of the Mussulman world.
I will recapitulate the position in regard to Crete. There can, in my opinion, be no question of annexation to Greece as a definite solution at the present time. The Powers will make no definite settlement of a new kind without consultation with Turkey. The four Powers who have been in occupation of Crete are determined to prevent changes in the status quo which would be detrimental to the prestige and suzerainty of Turkey and the rights of the Mussulman minority in Crete. If the Cretans accept that position, their autonomy remains, their self-government is not interfered with, there is complete liberty, and I do not see that they have-Anything to complain of.

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The attitude of Greece has been during these recent troubles perfectly correct. Greece has been quite passive in the matter, and has given no provocation to Turkey. If we take upon ourselves the responsibility, and, if need be, take the necessary steps, to prevent changes in the status quo in Crete to the detriment of Turkey, and if Greece, on her part, remains passive and gives no cause of offence or provocation, then I trust there is no legitimate cause for a breach of the peace outside Crete itself in the Near East.
All I have said to-day is an amplification of the answer. I gave yesterday. Our first object is to preserve the peace, and I trust the matter being as it is, that the four Powers will have their advice accepted by the Cretans without being forced to resort to those measures which must necessarily follow upon their part if they are to discharge the obligations which they undertook when they originally entered upon the occupation of the island.
With regard to other matters, that of Egypt has come up again. I thank the hon. Member for Kirkcaldy (Sir H. Dalziel) for the personal reference which he made to myself at the beginning of his speech. He complimented me upon my unobtru-siveness—a compliment which I very much appreciated. It is a little dangerous, however to be complimented on unobtrusive-ness, because, if one is frequently complimented upon it, it is possible that the quiet and repose which go with unobtrusiveness, and which are one of its advantages, may cease to be as useful and complete as mine have been. But I appreciate the personal reference. I cannot agree with his speech about Egypt. He said the question would not have come up in this House if it had not been for the speech of Mr. Roosevelt at the Guildhall. It certainly would have come, because I know there was some thought of bringing it up in this House before the Spring Recess, and I have been considering, in the light of the information I had from Egypt at that time, what I should have said had the question come up. I should have made then a speech very much the same as I made a few days ago, and it would have contained a sentence to the effect that we were in Egypt as trustees, that we were bound to maintain the good work we have done in Egypt, maintain order, and that if we abandoned that task, or failed, or reluctantly continued to accept responsibility for the state of things in Egypt, then
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undoubtedly we should have been at the parting of the ways and we had better decide to leave the country altogether. We must discharge the responsibilities that came upon us to a great extent unsought, and continue to discharge them, and if we do not the whole reason and justification of our remaining in Egypt would come to an end. That I should certainly have said, and it is obvious. The more things are unsettled in Egypt the more you are brought to the feeling that we are nearing the parting of the ways. We have either got to assert our authority and bring things to a satisfactory state or else make up our minds that our views with regard to the continuance of our occupation in Egypt must be changed. That is why I said it was the policy of the Government to maintain our occupation of Egypt, because we cannot abandon without disgrace the responsibilities which have grown up around us there. The greater part of the hon. Member for Kirkcaldy's speech was devoted to expressing an opinion upon Mr. Roosevelt's speech. The hon. Member for East Tyrone also expressed his opinion about that speech. Mr. Roosevelt would be the last man to object to people expressing an opinion about his speech. I expressed mine the other night, and I see no reason why other people should not express theirs, and I also see no reason why I should be continually called upon on every occasion to repeat the opinion which I have already expressed. I do not think that I need concern myself with that speech any more. I would observe, however, how difficult it is to express one's feelings accurately in public speeches. What I said two days ago as to what had passed between Mr. Roosevelt and myself is on record. I have heard tonight the impression which it produced on the hon. Member for East Tyrone and the hon. Member for Kirkcaldy. One said that I had received a proof in advance of Mr. Roosevelt's speech, another assumed that I had seen the manuscript, and one went so far as to assume that if I had not actually written the speech I had inspired it. The fact of the matter is that I did not see any manuscript, but I would suggest to hon. Members who think that a dangerous precedent has been set, as the hon. Member for Kirkcaldy seems to think, that they should read the whole of that speech.
Sir HENRY DALZIEL: I have read every line of it.
Sir E. GREY: Then the hon. Member has omitted to notice, when he said what a bad precedent it was and how Mr. Roosevelt might have said this or that about something else, there is in that speech a sentence something about not saying anything about internal affairs, and supposing any representative of another country came there discussing internal affairs there would be a protest against any action of that kind.
Sir HENRY DALZIEL: Does the right hon. Gentleman draw a distinction between Foreign affairs and internal affairs?
Sir E. GREY: I do not say I draw a distinction between them. What I object to is that the hon. Member for Kirkcaldy seems to me to be widening the precedent which had been set. I do not think a precedent is involved, but when the hon. Member for Kirkcaldy wishes to establish this as a far-reaching precedent, I would demur to any such construction being put upon it, or to the assumption that that speech affords so wide a construction as the hon. Gentleman puts upon it. Undoubtedly, as the Leader of the Opposition said the other day, for any representative of another country to discuss internal affairs even favourably is always treading upon delicate ground. As far as this particular incident is concerned I have nothing to add and nothing to take from the opinion which I have already expressed. As regards the position of things in Egypt the hon. Member for East Tyrone said that our policy ought to be one of slow development and improvement in Egypt. I would ask anyone who says that at all seriously to ask himself how is it possible that slow and favourable development can go on if every Egyptian Minister who works cordially with us, and who takes our advice, which has been of exceeding benefit to the country, is to be insulted and denounced in the native Press? That is what I complained of two days ago, and with that complaint everybody who advocates the policy of development in Egypt ought to sympathise.
I come to the question of the Chinchow-Aigun Railway. I am afraid that on this point I shall disappoint the expectation of hon. Members. I was not aware that this particular question was likely to arise in Debate. I was told through the usual channels that the question of China would arise. There are many questions associated with China, and I endeavoured to ascertain which of these questions was
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likely to be raised, but I did not understand that the Chinchow-Aigun Railway was one of the questions which would be raised. I have not, therefore, been able to refer back to all the details of this particular railway which the hon. Member referred to, and that is why I am afraid my remarks on this subject will be rather meagre, and will probably disappoint the expectations of those who expect to hear a very important statement. The Chinchow-Aigun Railway is promoted by American financiers and a British firm of contractors, who are applying for and have been promised a concession from the Chinese Government. It is not a concession of the particular kind to which the hon. Member referred, but it is something which is to be given to them by the Chinese Government in the nature of a concession for a loan for the making of a railway. That is perfectly legitimate on their part, and I have not the least right to complain, and I do not complain, of any action that has been taken. On the contrary, I look very favourably at the co-operation of British and American firms in this or any other matter, and I am very glad that they are co-operating. I do not in the least deprecate anything that has been done in this matter, but when I am asked to come forward and put diplomatic pressure upon the Chinese Government to put this agreement through, then I am brought up by the fact that in 1897 notes were exchanged between the British and the Russian Governments under which we agreed on our part not to press for railway concessions in this particular region. It is true we did not undertake any obligations to discourage them, or to prevent British firms applying for them, or promoting railways there. It was a purely negative undertaking on our part.
What I am reproached for is that I have not taken an active and positive part in promoting the construction of this railway. I think the hon. Member opposite put a technical and somewhat narrow construction upon the Anglo-Russian agreement of 1897. He asked if it had not been superseded by a subsequent arrangement. In so far as it may have been modified by subsequent arrangements superior to it, it would have been superseded, but I am not aware that arrangements which have subsequently been made have altered the natural meaning of the Anglo-Russian agreement or deprived it of its force. If any agreement of that kind still exists it

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ought not to be put an end to without a mutual understanding between the two Governments, and ought not to be modified unless they understand exactly what it means. The Chinchow-Aigun Railway is a railway which is to cross the line of Russia, and is to extend right up to the Russian frontier. I think we were bound to take the line that if the Chinese were going to have this railway made by foreigners we could not in the face of the Anglo-Russian agreement take an active part in supporting it until the Chinese had come to terms with Russia about it. Japan has not opposed it in principle but has asked for participation, and I think that was a perfectly reasonable demand on the part of Japan. If Japan had taken up the line of stating that she wished to have a railway monopoly in Manchuria, that would have been a distinct breach of the open door. If she made use of her position there to give preferential rates to her own people as against others, that again would be a breach of the open door. But when Japan, after all that has passed, says she has an interest in Manchuria which justifies her in wishing for participation in railways which may to some extent compete with the railway which is already in existence, it would be going too far for us to say that that is an unreasonable demand, and does not justify us in taking active diplomatic steps at Pekin to press for the granting of this railway.
Mr. ARBUTHNOT: Is it not a fact that this concession involves some control over and above participation?
Sir E. GREY: I am not quite sure on that point, but it is a matter to be arranged between the Chinese and the Japanese Government. All I am defending is my attitude of neutrality. In the face of the Anglo-Russian agreement it would have been impossible for us to take up the attitude of actively promoting a railway which is going to be constructed by foreigners with money lent by foreigners, which is going to cross the Russian line at one point and extend up to the Russian frontier, and is going to have a considerable influence on Russia's strategical position, and to press for that railway without Russia being given any chance of participation. I think the only course consistent with a reasonable interpretation of our obligations in this respect has been that we should say, while we have every wish to see British and Ameri-
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can finance co-operating in railway construction in China, with regard to this particular railway we cannot but think it reasonable that China should consult with both Japan and Russia if she intends to have a railway made by foreigners. In face of the Anglo-Russian Agreement of 1897, the only reasonable course for us to adopt is to maintain a neutral attitude until China has discussed the matter and the Russian and Japanese objections to the railway have been removed. I think that is the only reasonable course we could take, either on grounds of general policy or in accordance with a general sense of the construction of our treaty engagements.
Mr. G. STEWART: I am encouraged to rise by a remark of the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, which seemed almost to express a regret that some questions he expected with regard to China had not been mentioned in the course of the Debate. I do not propose to say a word about the railway which has been mentioned, because it seemed to exercise a very paralysing influence upon the Members of this House. The question of China is naturally one in which I take a considerable interest, because I lived for a considerable time in that country. The termination of the Russo-Japanese War may be said to have opened a new era and awakened fresh interest in China as a field for British capital and enterprise. Before the war there were apprehensions as to the possibility of Russian intervention, which might have a paralysing effect upon British enterprise. There was a good deal of talk about spheres of influence in different districts for different people. If we ever had a sphere of influence, it does not seem to exist at the present moment, but it was supposed to be in the Yangtse Valley. Now it seems to be open to anyone. I do not know that we, as stout upholders of the open door, need mind that very much, but it occurs to one that if we welcome others in our sphere of influence it would be fair to us if Englishmen were allowed to enjoy opportunities of enterprise in Shangtung and Manchuria, which are more or less closed against us. If Germany is allowed privileges in the Yangtse Valley, we can reasonably ask for facilities for making railways in the northern portion of Shangtung.
There is one railway in which we are specially interested, and that is the railway between Hankow and Canton. If

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any particular railway was ever earmarked for British enterprise it was that railway. The Colony of Hong Kong pledged its credit for a million to enable the Chinese to pay out the Belgians and to secure that their railway should be a British enterprise. We all know the evil practices of the Chinese with regard to railway construction, and, when the Hankow Bailway came up for consideration, it was the duty of our financiers to protect British investors as far as possible from any misappropriation of their funds. It was during those negotiations that the public who are interested in such matters received a most unpleasant shock. It was announced one day in the public Press that the negotiators, I will not say had been defeated, but had failed, and that Germany had acquired the contract for that railway. It is true we have been able to get the matter back into our own hands, but the advantage which our rivals got has been used as a lever to further their interests in fields where we might have had a larger share of business. It seems to me that the Foreign Office might have protected our interests in the matter if they had notified China that going behind our people would be looked upon as an unfriendly act. China, as far as I am able to judge, treated our negotiators and our prestige with a certain want of consideration when, for a very small advantage, they handed over to a German company the construction of the railway for which we had advanced such a large sum of money on a definite promise. If our negotiators had known that they had the full support of the Foreign Office, and that the Chinese could not treat our interests in a light manner, their hands would have been considerably strengthened. One can hardly imagine a German colony advancing one million for the making of a railway and a British company by some slight concession ousting German interests in the way we were ousted. I have a very fair estimate of the immense trouble and difficulty there are in all negotiations with the Chinese, but I should like to draw attention to the fact that the Chinese are apparently treated with a certain amount of indulgence, and are allowed to go back upon their promises with impunity.
Let us turn for a moment to the Mackay Treaty. It was signed, sealed, and delivered in 1902, and at the present moment it is more or less a dead letter. It never has been operative. Article 2 of that
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treaty, which stipulates for a uniform coinage with a proper currency throughout the whole of China, has been inoperative for eight years. In fact, so far from making the coinage a legal and proper one, it has, I believe, been debased, with the result that the Chinese peasant has had his money reduced 50 per cent, in its purchasing power. He is crippled to that extent in purchasing British goods, and, as has recently happened, when rice has advanced in price riots have taken place owing to the reduced purchasing power of this money. It is to that that a considerable amount of the present unrest in China is due. We have had promises, of course, in plenty, and I understand we have had some recent ones. I trust they are more worthy of credence than those we have had hitherto. The anti-foreign feeling in the Yangtze Valley makes me ask the Foreign Office to bear one small point in mind, and that is the difference between the foreigners and the surrounding Chinese with regard to the boundaries of Shanghai. It is conceivable that the differences might suddenly produce a demonstration of a very unpleasant character, and, as it is an open secret that the United States Government are most anxious to co-operate in settling the question, I hope the Foreign Office will give it their careful consideration and do their best in the matter. Shanghai is a growing place, and it would be to the benefit of all if the boundary question were settled. It is in no spirit of adverse criticism that I have approached these two points. There has always been, and I am sure there is now, the best feeling between the trading community in China and the officials of the Foreign Office at home. I hope that will always continue, and that the Foreign Office will do what they can to support our own people there. It is only by mutual support and by a mutual interchange of knowledge that any real effective progress can be made. Traders require all the support they can get from the Government, because they suffer more than anyone else from the tortuous, dilatory diplomacy of the Chinaman, and they have the most strenuous competition from their rivals, who are sometimes backed up by Government forces, which it is not always our policy to accord.
Mr. ARTHUR LYNCH: I would like to refer to one aspect of the speech which the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition made in this House the

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other night. The idea which pervaded his whole speech was that of there being a dominant race of superior wisdom which has not only the right, but also the mission, to rule other races of an inferior kind. One would think these inferior races were something like the worm of Isaac Walton—delighted to be put on a hook. Almost precisely similar language was used with respect to the American Colonies as is used at the present time to defeat the object of the Egyptian Nationalists. We were told that the time had not arrived for entrusting them with self-government, and now we have the spectacle of one of those races coming here to instruct our Government in the manner in which it should govern its own affairs. The same questions arose even in Australia. At one time, in 1854, there were scenes of greater violence there than those which have happened in Egypt, and precisely the same argument was used for defeating and crushing down the very natural feelings of the Australian colonists for a little more control of their own affairs. I for one refuse to associate the question of Ireland with that of Egypt or that of any other nationality or race struggling for the management of its own affairs.
8.0 P.M.
Very far-reaching principles are involved where races of different countries and having the same qualities and the same capacities as the white race come in question. I may point out that this question of the mission of one race to govern another was dealt with by France more than a hundred years ago, and it is therefore a matter of ancient history. We here to-day are dealing with problems which France settled a century since. The Foreign Secretary has said that no concessions can be made while Egypt remains unsettled. But may I point out that if a country is entirely quiescent, then the argument is used that there is no need for any kind of reform. We are told that things are in a settled condition, that the people are happy, and that there is no necessity to try experiments. Therefore the only recourse open to the people is agitation, and when They begin to agitate and to demand fuller rights from the Government, then they are subjected to pressure, and it is only human nature to respond to violent pressure by the exercise of violence on the part of those 'subjected to it. I am not one of those who at any time advocate violence. I have a certain horror of it, and my horror is all the more sincere and profound when
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that violence is used from the governing side. I am inclined to think that in Egypt, even if progress must be slow, it would be possible gradually to associate the people with the government of their own country, and to give them increased responsibility. Let there be a natural move in that direction. But with regard to these Eastern races, and their capacity for self-government, one is not entirely without light even in modern history. Take the case of Turkey. In our own time we have had an extraordinary revolution there, a perfectly peaceful and bloodless revolution, showing how a people supposed to be indoctrinated with despotic theories of government have been able to rise and overthrow despotism, and to take the government of their own country into their own hands. We have a further illustration in the case of another country formerly dominated by this same Turkey, and the arguments which have been applied by the Leader of the Opposition to the case of Egypt and against the aspirations of the Egyptian Nationalists applied only a short time ago, and with equal force, against the aspirations of the Bulgarians, who protested against the domination of Turkey. The Bulgarians at a certain moment, taking advantage of the European situation, revolted and overthrew the domination of Turkey, and we had this remarkable result, that they not only justified themselves in taking the government into their own hands, but that they displayed unknown qualities, qualities unsuspected in their race and character, and developed their country with an enormous acceleration of progress, so that it is now one of the foremost in the Near East. I use this argument not because it is very apt to Egypt, but because these cases should serve as useful guides. There has been no direct experiment with regard to Egypt at all, and we can only proceed on lines of general analogy. We see how baseless are the arguments used by the Leader of the Opposition, by Mr. Roosevelt, and by the Foreign Secretary, in regard to the agitation in Egypt, and used in order to defeat the demand of the Egyptian Nationalists for self-government. I am inclined to think that, on the whole, none of their philosophies apply at all. It is possible to have just enough learning to misquote, and just enough of the principles of philosophy and history to mislead. In regard to this immediate matter of Egypt there is one question which, after all, rises dominant. On the one hand you have a policy of repression and retrogression

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which will surely lead to violence and counter-violence and send back the civilisation of Egypt perhaps for generations. On the other hand there is a policy of moving, perhaps slowly, but at any rate progressively, towards educating the Egyptian and giving him an opportunity of sharing in the government of his own country and encouraging him in the way of self-government. I am inclined to think, looking at the two pictures, that the Liberal Government should adopt a Liberal policy, tending towards progression and the elevation of the whole status of Egypt by means of very proper concessions to the national sentiment in that country.
Question, "That the Bill be now read the third time," put, and agreed to.
Bill read the third time, and passed.

RAILWAY COMPANIES (ACCOUNTS AND RETURNS) BILL.
Order for Second Reading read.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read a second time."
The PRESIDENT of the BOARD of TRADE (Mr. Sydney Buxton): This Bill is an attempt to deal with a question which has created great interest in the last few years, and which was referred to a Departmental Committee—the question of an improvement in the returns and accounts at present provided under Act of Parliament by railway companies. The Bill carries out the various recommendations of that Committee. I may just say, in passing, that we are very much indebted both to the Chairman of the Committee and to the other members of it for the efficient and painstaking labours which they devoted to the consideration if this question. It had of late years become more evident from time to time, that the system of making returns and accounts by railway companies is antiquated, and there grew up a strong desire that the returns should be brought up to date. The present returns and accounts are furnished under Acts of Parliament, the first of which was passed in 1868, and the second in 1871. They were passed at a period when the railway system in this country, and the methods of conducting the railways, were
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on a much smaller scale than at the present time. But the forms laid down for the accounts have become stereotyped by Act of Parliament, and no effective means were possessed by the Board of Trade for bringing them up to date. Consequently a year or two ago my predecessor at the Board of Trade, the present Chancellor of the Exchequer, appointed a Departmental Committee to go into the question of railway returns and accounts, with this reference—"to consider and report what changes if any are desirable in the form and scope of the accounts and statistical returns of capital, traffic, receipts, and expenditure rendered by railway companies under the Railway Regulation Acts." That Committee was formed of representatives of the railway companies, representatives of those who perhaps I may call reformers in these matters of accounts and returns, representatives of the Board of Trade, and others, who, like the Chairman, had no particular interest in the question and came to the consideration of the matter with a perfectly open mind. That Committee gave very careful consideration to the questions referred to it. The first point on which they reported unanimously was that there was no advantage in the present system of railway companies being obliged to give their shareholders half-yearly accounts, and they proposed that, for the future, it should be sufficient to have annual returns and accounts presented to the shareholders, these returns to be sent also to the Board of Trade. This recommendation was unanimously agreed to, and is embodied in this Bill. There was a further and more important duty put upon the Committee, which was asked to report on the best method in which the existing returns and accounts should appear for the information of the shareholders and of the public, as well as of the Board of Trade, and they adopted certain forms both of accounts and statistics which are embodied in Part 1, so far as accounts are concerned, and in Part 2 as regards statistics, in the Schedule of the Bill. I may say at once that taking into account the very careful consideration which was given to these returns and accounts by the members of the Committee, and that they came to a unanimous agreement with regard to them, that I thought it right and best to have the weight of the Committee behind me, and I have practically adopted the accounts and returns in the shape in which the Committee recommended them.

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I do not say that we have not made a few minor alterations. We have not adopted them without the alteration of a comma, but I think I may say we have done so without the alteration of a semi-colon. At all events there are very few alterations which we have made, and they are not of any importance as to principle, and we have only made a change in one or two cases to make the matter clearer.
The nature of the changes which the Bill proposes is substantially this: Under the old statutory system of accounts there were no means of showing to the shareholders and the public the various nature of the enterprises of railway companies. There was nothing which kept distinct what I may call the accounts of the railways proper to their business as railways, and the accounts of their revenue and expenditure on account of other matters complementary to their railway undertakings. Of late years the railways of this country have largely extended what I may call the commercial part of their railway undertakings, and have become the proprietors of steam boats, canals, omnibuses, hotels, and last night it was arranged that they might become the proprietors of golf links. The Committee were unanimously of opinion that the revenue and expenditure on account of these extensions of their business ought to be distinguished and made clear from the revenue and expenditure on railway matters proper. It was thought that this was necessary with a view to the accuracy of the accounts, and so that those interested in the matter might see what was the expenditure on the working of the railways apart from these subsidiary matters. Under the old Act, the Eegulation of Railways Act, 1868, they included in one miscellaneous table, figures dealing with steamboats, canal and harbour expenses, and a variety of other matters, but we now propose that the schedules shall show separately the receipts and expenditure in respect of omnibuses and other vehicles run in connection with the railway, refreshment rooms, dining ears, steamboats, canals, hotels, and other enterprises. That will be of importance, but, apart from that, the returns and accounts show an extraordinary improvement in clearness and detail, both from the point of view of the public and the Department.
As to the statistical returns, they are also very much amplified and very much improved, because now all the items will be given separately with regard to rolling
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stock, road vehicles, steamboats, canals, docks, etc. Such things as these will be the subject of separate returns, instead of their being lumped together as they are at the present time. There is one item which I think will be of great interest to this House, and that is the details of the working of the workmen's tickets under the Cheap Trains Act. Up to now these have been lumped together with the third-class return tickets. In addition to that, the tonnage of the principal articles of goods traffic carried on railways will also be given in detail, so that we may be able to see what the traffic is. This information will be of value from the point of view of the trade and commerce of this country, and we shall be able to see what is the nature and extent of these larger items of traffic on our great railways. In regard to many other matters of that sort, there are details to be given which I think will be of advantage and which will enable us for the first time to compare, and compare properly, the working of one railway with another, which has been almost impossible under the old form of return. Under the past system there was no material for making a fair and just comparison between one line and another. All these schedules to which I have referred were agreed to by the Committee, but they suggested further that the Board of Trade should in the future have the power of adding to and altering these schedules and ordering returns of various sorts from railway companies, and adding to these schedules as they thought best from the point of view of public information. They considered that the Board should have the power of adding schedules which would become statutory in the same way as these schedules and would be in the nature of an annual return to the shareholders, the Board of Trade, and the public. That power is found in Clause 3, which is divided into two parts, one which deals with what I may call financial accounts and the other with the question of statistics.
At the present moment the Board of Trade in regard to financial accounts—accounts affecting finance in the shape of expenditure and revenue and so on—have no power to call upon railway companies to furnish them with altered or amplified accounts without the assent of the railway company. Thus, whereas in other cases as regards statistical and not financial returns, they have the power to call for and

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alter them as they think best, they have not that power in regard to financial returns. In taking, therefore, this further power it seemed not unfair to the railway companies to distinguish between the financial accounts and the statistical returns, and to give them in regard to the former some right of appeal from the possibly arbitrary action of the Board of Trade in calling for and publishing returns which the companies believe may be of financial disadvantage to themselves. One can understand and easily conceive that in some cases of financial returns it might be to the disadvantage of a railway or a commercial undertaking in rivalry with other railways and commercial undertakings to have certain financial accounts necessarily made public. Therefore we thought it quite fair, with regard to financial accounts, that there should be something in the nature of an appeal from the Board of Trade, and that has been given. With regard to statistical returns, subject to a provision which gives the railway companies power to discuss the matter with us, there is a clause which gives the Board of Trade full power to call for any figures of that nature which they require, and publish them to the shareholders and the public at large. We have given a certain amount of discretion to the Board of Trade, which we hope will be used with moderation, to call for returns which we think of value, from the point of view of the management of railways and their working, and from the point of view of information. One other recommendation of the Committee was that there should be a Committee created by the Board of Trade to go into these returns from time to time and consider whether they might be altered or improved or amended. I do not gather that they propose that this should be a Statutory Committee. We considered whether it would be advantageous, but, on the whole, we came to the conclusion that to create a Statutory Committee for this purpose would be clumsy, and that it would be less elastic than a Committee created by the Board of Trade themselves. Therefore the question of the creation of the Committee is a matter for consideration, and one to which we shall give great consideration, as to whether it will be an advantage to have such a Committee created. In Committee on this Bill I shall be quite open to consider the question of the creation of the Committee, even a Statutory Com-
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mittee, if that is the general feeling of those interested in it. But we think it would be better at present to leave it to the discretion of the Board of Trade.
So much for the Bill itself, which carries out, and perhaps endorses, those parts of the Reports of the Committee which were agreed to by the Committee as a whole, and on which they made certain recommendations to the Board of Trade, namely, the questions of half-yearly and yearly reports, and matters of that sort, and these returns of accounts and statistics. Of course, I am aware that before the Committee, other questions, especially one question of very considerable moment and interest, were raised with reference to these returns. That was the question of whether there should not be other and additional returns in reference to the amount of traffic on railways and the method in which that should be calculated which, in the opinion of many persons, would state better for the public information and for that of the shareholders, as well as of the managers of the railways, the amount of traffic and the method in which it was carried out and the best method of economically dealing with it. The hon. Member (Mr. Burdett-Coutts) has already taken a great interest in that particular question. He gave almost voluminous evidence before the Committee on that subject, which I had the pleasure of reading, and he and others have taken a very great interest in two matters which go together, which are called ton-mileage and passenger mileage. It really means that in order to obtain the aggregate of your traffic you multiply your passenger or ton by the number of miles run. That is a question of great interest, and in the minds of many persons it is the only proper method under which these traffic returns should be compiled. It is a very controversial matter. There was a great deal of conflicting evidence given before the Committee in reference to it. The Committee examined it very carefully, and reported in regard to it, but, looking at it all round, it appeared to me that the Committee themselves were not sufficiently unanimous on the matter and were not sufficiently favourable to it to enable us at the Board of Trade to make this particular form of return compulsory on the railway companies at present. This is what the Committee said in regard to it:—
"Many officials of British railways appear to be willing to adopt the ton-mile system if it can be shown to be of value; and we recommend this class of statistics

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to the careful consideration of those responsible for railway working in this country with a view to seeing whether they cannot be more widely introduced. At the same time, it must be borne in mind that a very important consideration from the point of view of railway administration is that the usefulness of these statistics would mainly depend on their being adopted willingly by the companies. A large part of their usefulness might be lost if their compilation resulted solely from compulsion. We are also of opinion that, however useful they might prove from the point of view of general information, there is not sufficient ground for insisting on their being compiled by all companies, unless and until they come to be adopted by a considerable number of the important companies."
At present there is only one company—the North-Eastern—which has adopted that particular system of computation. The Report goes on:—
"Except where a very strong demand is made on behalf of the public for certain information, we do not think that public companies can fairly be put to the expense of compiling statistics which have no reference to existing methods of working, and which the majority of the companies still regard, though perhaps erroneously, as useless.
In these circumstances, it did not appear to be the duty of the Board of Trade to insert it in this Bill, which is intended to carry out the unanimous recommendations of the Committee, and it has not been thought expedient or right to place this particular form of return in the schedule to this Bill. But I wish to make it clear to the House that the Bill neither raises nor precludes the consideration of the question at a future date. We are not desiring to make it compulsory, and we do not think at present there is sufficient evidence before ns to show that it ought to be so made. But at the same time, under Clause 3, the Board of Trade would be enabled—if those who demand this particular system successfully educate public opinion, or, still better, educate the railways in that direction—to adopt it at some future time, if it be then shown that it meets with general public approval. I, therefore, desire to commend this Bill to the House, net only as a modest measure of railway reform, but, as I think, a real step in advance on a businesslike basis, and one which will be of advantage to the shareholders and the public, and, I feel confident, also to the railway companies themselves.
Mr. STUART-WORTLEY: Speaking en behalf of certain railway companies, I do not propose to take the step to-day of asking the House to reject this Bill, or of taking a Division against it. It is not to be supposed, however, although the railway companies, who were represented on the Departmental Committee, and although the Committee were unanimous on certain points, that this is a Bill which can be regarded as accepted in its entirety by
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those to whom it principally applies. I desire at this stage to raise a protest against certain provisions of the Bill which we shall ask the leave of the House to change in Committee. I hope, therefore, the right hon. Gentleman will not ask the House to proceed with too great rapidity from stage to stage, but will, at all events, allow some time for amendment, and possibly for negotiations upon those Amendments, before we reach the Committee stage. I may put our position briefly in this way. The railway companies fully agree that it is desirable that certain Amendments should be made in the form of accounts, and are still more strongly of opinion that any changes should rest upon something like general assent; and, for the purpose of obtaining that general assent, they, through their representatives on the Departmental Committee, make very considerable concessions, and having made them, they are willing to accept as primâ facie proper the forms of accounts and also the forms of returns scheduled to the present Bill. The point at which difference of opinion arises between the experts of the railway companies—those in charge of the interests of the railway companies—on the one hand and the promoters of this Bill on the other hand, is where the Bill proposes to confer power of changing these statutory forms. It is true that the Departmental Committee recommended that, as regards both the financial accounts and the statistical returns, there should be power in the Executive Government to make from time to time changes in the forms. The railway people represented to the Board of Trade that that was a power too great to be conferred, without some kind of limitation or appeal, and they have succeeded in persuading the Board of Trade, and the draughtsmen and promoters of this Bill, that, at all events, as regards the form of accounts, it is right that the power of making changes should not be entirely uncontrolled. Accordingly, in Clause 3, as the House will see, as regards the form of accounts, the Board of Trade will not be able to change the forms when objection is made by, railway companies, without obtaining the sanction of the Railway Commissioners. We have not been able to persuade them to introduce a like provision with regard to changes in statistical returns. We shall, therefore, ask the House not to sanction the distinction between these two things, because we conceive that

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no distinction can be properly drawn between the two. These returns, not less than the forms of accounts, are matters of great interest. They are matters in the preparation of which it is quite possible for great expense to be caused for arbitrary requirements. The forms in which they should be cast are matters which arouse most profound differences of opinion, and we do think that, just as it is conceivable that changes should not be made in the financial accounts without that kind of further inquiry which would be obtained by an appeal to the Railway Commissioners, so at the same time we think that if we are to have the introduction of new requirements with respect to statistical returns, they should not be capable of being ordered merely by the fiat of the Executive Minister, but that they should be made the subject of serious inquiry.
It may be said that the Board of Trade are giving up uncontrolled power to call for new forms. We do not agree with that view. We say that the Act of 1871, which empowers the Board of Trade to call for new forms, and to make changes in the forms of returns, applies only to returns which are merely optional for the Board of Trade to call for. The power of changing the forms which this Bill proposes to confer will apply to something different, and it will not be merely at the option of the Board of Trade to call for the returns. They will be returns in forms which will be obligatory on the railway companies to give to the shareholders, and through the shareholders to the public. For reasons which it is not necessary to enlarge upon there may be cases in which it is desirable that returns should be sent to the Board of Trade, and which it may not be desirable that they should be all given to the shareholders and the public. We, for our part, are content that these uncontrolled powers should be retained as they are under the existing statute law, and we shall move in Committee that the words of this Bill which propose to repeal the old powers should not be carried, and that therefore these powers should remain unrepealed. We shall also ask that something like the power of appeal from an order of the Board of Trade which the Bill now gives in the case of the financial accounts should apply equally to the proposed alteration of the statistical returns. I hope when the time comes we may be able
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to persuade the House that these demands of ours are not altogether unreasonable, and that they are made in the interest of the inexpensive working of trade, and in the interest of those who may have incurred large risks in these enterprises. We hope we may be able to persuade the House to make these Amendments. Having entered that protest at this stage, I wish to say that we are willing to give a Second Reading to the Bill to-night, while hoping that the changes I have indicated will be made later on.
Mr. WARDLE: While I welcome this Bill as a step forward, I desire to say that in my opinion, so far from its going too far, as the last speaker (Mr. Stuart-Wortley) suggested, it does not go nearly far enough. The statement made by the right hon. Gentleman opposite that the general assent of the railway companies should be obtained before this House requires that these returns should be made seems to be a doctrine which the House ought not to sanction. With regard to returns from limited liability companies, this House has passed drastic Acts of Parliament, and it seems to me that it ought to have the same powers over railway companies when necessary to exercise them. In the past railway companies have not furnished sufficient details of the business which they do, and I should like returns in regard to ton-mile statistics. I hope that when the Bill goes into Committee we shall be able to move Amendments which will bring to the decision of this House the question whether ton-mile statistics shall or shall not be given. With regard to that matter, I may be permitted to say that the Committee which reported, said this:—
"No sufficient evidence has been brought before us that any such strong feeling exists except among a very limited number of persons."
That is, I presume, with regard to this particular reform. This is a matter in which a limited number necessarily take an interest. I would like to remind the right hon. Gentleman that the Associated Chamber of Commerce this year adopted the following resolution:—
"That in the opinion of this association it is of the utmost importance in the interest of trade that legislation should be introduced at the earliest possible date to give effect to the recommendations of the recent Departmental Committee on Railway Accounts, and that it is also essential that provision should be made in the statistical returns for the compilation and publication of ton-mileage statistics."
That, in my opinion, is a very strong reason why this reform should be intro-

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duced in this Bill. I presume I may speak to some extent for the employés on the railways, and although they have passed no formal resolution on the subject, they are extremely interested in all the details of railway working being made public, and that the railway companies should not work in the dark as regards statistics as they do at the present time. I may say that we are interested in this matter of full details with regard to ton-mile statistics and passenger-mile statistics from quite a different point of view to that of the shareholders or the traders. The shareholder, I think, has a perfect right to say that when details are furnished as to the business which is being done by the company they should give in addition to the capital and the details of the machinery also the actual output of the work they do for the money they receive, so that they would be able properly to compare what is done by one railway with what is done by another. In every country I believe in the world, with the exception of this country, Portugal, and Belgium, these statistics are prepared, and in America and most other countries it is a statutory condition that they should be prepared and presented. Therefore there is no reason at all except the action of the railway companies themselves why these statistics should not be prepared. We are interested in them from the point of view of the employés. I am told in America that since 1896, when these statistics were gone into much more accurately, there has been partly as a consequence—I do not say it is the sole reason—a general increase in the wages of the working men, that is railway men, of no less than 25 per cent. The actual facts which are brought out by these returns tend to the advantage of the employé, and they clear away a considerable amount of misunderstanding. They give the facts with regard to the working of railways, and as a consequence comparisons are able to be made.
The hon. Member for Westminster (Mr. W. Burdett-Coutts) this morning issued a statement which is an illustration of what I mean. He stated in the evidence which he gave before this particular committee that considered this question that at that time the railways were passing through a serious crisis. He said the rate of wages had risen. Will it be believed that the statement which he has made there, and which is constantly being put forward as an excuse by the railway com-
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pany, for the great increase in the expenses of railways and the decrease in the dividend, is that the wages are higher, when as a matter of fact that cannot be proved at all. We want to know what the facts are. So far as I can get at them they are exactly the opposite. I have taken great trouble with regard to this matter, and in the returns here furnished there are given for fourteen railways in five departments the amount of wages that they pay. I have taken those statistics out for ten years, and they show that, taking the gross receipts of the railways and comparing them with the wages paid on these fourteen railways, the wages paid per £ of receipts in 1899 by the whole of these fourteen railways was 5.48 shillings, and in 1908 it was 5.37 shillings, a decrease of 11 shillings in the ten years. That does not show what is frequently alleged, that there has been any increase in the rates of wages paid to the men. On the contrary, it shows a decrease. I may say that out of these fourteen railways there is a decrease in ten cases and an increase only in four. Therefore we want to get at the facts. Facts are as important for the employés as for the traders and the shareholders, and these facts can only be got if the fullest information is given to this House and to the country by the railways. I cannot for the life of me conceive what they have got to hide with regard to this matter, or what power there may be of these particulars being used for wrong purposes.
The North-Eastern Railway Company have been referred to as a company which have prepared these statistics, and it is a remarkable fact that since they began to prepare them they have had a career of greater improvement than ever they had before. It seems to me, in the interests of the railway companies themselves, this House ought to insist upon these returns being given. There is no means of anyone who desires the information at the present time getting to know the number of employés of any particular railway—neither the number of engine drivers, the number of guards, or any other employment. In this particular there should be an improvement made in the Bill; and in addition to asking for the amount paid in wages, we should also get to know the number of persons to whom those wages are paid. For the present I do not oppose this Bill. Personally, I rather welcome it. It goes

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a bit further than we have been accustomed to up to the present time. At the same time, I think that when the Government are taking this question in hand they might well have done the job thoroughly once for all. I think we ought to have all possible information with regard to the companies that they can furnish to us for the sake of the House, of the shareholders, the traders, the employés, and everyone concerned, and I cannot for the life of me see why this House should not take upon itself the responsibility at this stage of seeing what form of return should be issued and what form of return should be asked for. With regard to the question of appeal on accounts, I consider that the body to which the appeal is being referred the very worst possible body to which any kind of appeal at all can be made. I think that the Railway Commission certainly justifies that attitude, and I should oppose any appeal being made to that exceedingly costly body, to which practically no one but the companies has any means of appealing. This Bill, it seems to me, is an extremely important one, and I protest against the assumption in this matter that the railway companies are the only parties vitally concerned in it. The Bill is an important public Bill, and I am sorry that there is not a larger House to deal with it, for in great measures of this kind, dealing with the vast capital and great interests which are at stake in the railways of this country, more public interest should be taken than appears to be taken at the present time.
Mr. BURDETT-COUTTS: I cannot but express my disappointment and surprise at the attitude of the right hon. Gentleman the President of the Board of Trade with regard to the questions involved in this Bill. I was not in the least surprised at the speech of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Sheffield, because I have had a pretty long experience of the railway mind, if one wants to get any information or data from a railway company. But I am surprised at the tone of the speech of the right hon. Gentleman opposite, because, in my opinion, and in the opinion of many outside the House, this Bill involves one of the most important issues that could be placed before a great industrial country—the scientific organisation of its industries. It is the first time that this question has come before the House in a concrete form, and it is a responsible task for any private Member to try to put the case to this
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House and make the matter clear. My main complaint against the Bill is that in regard to a great question of policy which comes before the House for the first time in the form of these railway statistics—the Bill shirks a decision. It shirks a decision on the great question of the scientific organisation of our English industries, and I am afraid that the effect of that will go very far. Because it must be remembered that the railway industry with regard to which this decision is shirked is by far the greatest industry in this country, not only by reason of the amount of capital—thirteen hundred millions—invested in it, but also because all other industries are in a measure dependent on and interlocked with it. It is the one industry over which the Board of Trade has complete control in this matter of statistics, which are the bedrock of scientific organisation.
At this crisis in the industrial history of this country in relation to her great competitors, for the Government to have spoken with an uncertain voice on this question, to have given us a faltering lead or no lead at all is, in my opinion, a great misfortune. I say at once in regard to Tariff Reform that I am what is called a "whole hogger." But I am free to admit that there is one thing, one condition prior to and more important than an alteration in our fiscal system, one condition that has enabled our competitors to outpace us far more than all their tariffs, and that is the scientific organisation of their industries. I am surprised that a member of a Free Trade Government should not have recognised this and seized the opportunity which is deliberately thrown away in this Bill. The bedrock of scientific organisation is admittedly accurate data and full statistics. Every manufacturer in this House, I think, will agree with that statement. All attempt to secure these statistics with regard to the greatest industry of the country has been abandoned in this Bill. There were two policies before the right hon. Gentleman in the report of the Committee to which he has alluded. I shall ask leave to say something about the history of that Committee, because I do not think that the right hon. Gentleman—I am sure it was not intentional on his part; I know he has quite recently come to the high office he holds—has understood in the least the genesis and object of that Committee or how completely it recognised, as the main feature, this question of statistics.

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9.0 P.M.
I said there were two policies before the Hoard of Trade in that Report to which the right hon. Gentleman has alluded. One was the old and time-honoured policy of practically no information and no statistics. This policy the railway representatives so far modified that they were willing to agree to a form of returns which, standing by themselves, are absolutely useless for our purpose. There was the other policy—and both these policies were clearly put forward—the policy of vitalised, real and informing statistics, which would speak to us of themselves on important matters, and show the real services performed by railways in return for the money they charge. That is what we want to get at—the real services, the real work which railways do. That is second policy, the policy of what I have called vitalised statistics, which do speak for themselves, the sort of statistics which, as the hon. Member who has just spoken pointed out, are compiled in connection with the railways of all other enlightened countries, and which the greatest builders of the railway industry and the greatest railway managers in those countries consider to be essential to economic working and to scientific organisation. These are the two policies which the right hon. Gentleman had before him. He chose the useless policy; he chose statistics that are useless as they now stand, and he rejected the useful system. With regard to the Committee, I should like to say a word or two about its history, for two reasons. I think one would almost gather from the speech of the right hon. Gentleman that the Committee was appointed for the purpose of separating the cost of canals, steamboats, and hotels from the cost of railway business proper. He said that when the Committee was sitting the question was raised as to ton-miles, and the right hon. Gentleman seemed to imply that this was a subordinate, a more or less incidental, thing.
Mr. BUXTON: I distinguished the particular point as another question of great importance, and I read the terms of reference.
Mr. BURDETT-COUTTS: I quite understand the right hon. Gentleman's explanation; still, if the House will permit me, I would like to say a few words about the history of this Committee, because I think that will bring out better than anything else the real subject that the Committee had before them for consideration. And
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my second reason is that it will indicate the only title I have to address the House on this subject.
The appointment of the Committee was the direct outcome of a prolonged effort in which I and others were concerned to induce English railways to compile and publish these statistics of their own accord. That effort was, in the first instance, localised at Euston, because the London and North-Western Railway was credited with being the "premier railway of England," and we hoped that if we were successful in our object other railways would fellow suit. May I say that this consideration weighed very strongly with me? I was associated with gentlemen who had very large interests as shareholders in the London and North-Western Railway and other English railways, who did me the honour to ask me to be chairman of the shareholders' committee But personally I have only a trifling financial interest in English railways. And I have no directorial ambitions. I took the matter up, as some others did, solely on account of its great public importance. That is the only point of view from which I am speaking to-night. On that campaign at Euston I desire to make no comment, because I wish to avoid all cause of offence to any one in this matter. But it is essential that I should state one or two leading facts. We did not succeed in inducing the London and North-Western Railway to compile these statistics; but we drew widespread attention to the fact that they were not compiled and did not exist, and I think we drew widespread attention to their value.
At Euston we were met by the statement from the Chairman that the statistics and data we wanted, all the statistics which in other countries are considered the bedrock of scientific railway working, were in his opinion "worthless and absolutely useless." Those were the words that came from the Board. Our pleadings before that enlightened tribunal suddenly ceased; and I am glad now to state the cause. We appealed to the Board of Trade; and the case for inquiry, at least, was so strong that the Committee on Railway Accounts was appointed. The Committee sat for three years, and reported last year. The right hon. Gentleman certainly made just reference to its arduous labours. The Report was signed by all the members, but was inconclusive. There was a Minority Report, or reservation, by the railway representatives, against the adoption of the statistics in question, and

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a similar Report by the reformers in favour of their adoption. I wish to impress upon the House what hon. Members can see quite plainly for themselves if they will read the Report, that up to the point where it comes to securing the adoption of these statistics by the railways, the Report throughout is strongly in favour of the statistics, illustrating their value from the evidence, establishing the fact that the cost of compiling them is immaterial, and making other points in their favour sufficiently clear. Then suddenly, when it comes to real business, namely, the actual introduction of the statistics, the Eeport—Commission-like—falters and comes to a lame and impotent conclusion. It recommends their adoption, but fails to recommend their being made statutory. From a former experience in this House I am not very fond of Royal Commissions; and there is no real difference between a Royal Commission and a Committee of this kind, formed in the same way and proceeding by the same methods. I am still less fend of them now. But my point is that, seeing that the whole tenour of the Report is in favour of the system, surely the Minister responsible might have taken the matter in both hands at the point where the Report falters and come to a strong and definite decision. I have only one thing more to say about the Report, which I have stated in the paper I have distributed. Practically all the returns now embodied in the Schedules of the Bill were the work of the three gentlemen whom the right hon. Gentleman has called the reformers. But they were presented simply as forming a threshold to this other system of statistics, without which, I venture to repeat, the returns now in the Bill will be of little real use; that system which, in the opinion of those who think with me, and of those three gentlemen and the other Commissioners, are essential to the scientific organisation of railways. The right hon. Gentleman gave what appeared to me to be a very incomplete statement of what passenger mileage and ton mileage really is. May I just describe what it is1? I know I was in this House fifteen years, and during that period I should have been very glad if anybody had explained it clearly to me. It is really the combination of weight and distance with regard to goods traffic, and of the number of passengers and distance with regard to passenger traffic. At present all mention of distance is left out by railways. In this Bill, which is supposed to lead to
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an improvement, not one word is included as to the distances that the passengers are conveyed, and there is to be no return at all about that. That seems to me incredible. Surely the function of a railway is not only to put so many tons and so many passengers on its trains, but it is to carry both the required distances. Let me put it in the words of Sir George Gibb, who gave the strongest possible evidence in favour of our case:—
"The whole question as to ton mile and passenger mile statistics, however much detailed controversy may have been raised about it, is nothing more than the simple question whether or not the statistical returns should contain information about the distances over which traffic is carried."
Now, will it be believed that hitherto English railways, with one single exception—to which I will refer later—have not compiled and do not now compile or give any returns of the distance they carry their freight and passengers? That is the great defect we wish to remedy. Without this information it is absolutely impossible to know anything about the real service performed by the companies for the money they receive. Hon. Members will see now why every other enlightened country insists upon these statistics.
To get ton mileage, you take the number of tons in each consignment, and you multiply them by the number of miles they are carried. So you get the number of tons carried one mile. You do exactly the same thing with regard to passenger traffic, and you get the number of passengers carried one mile. This is the form in which the figure is stated in all other countries. Put in that form, ton mileage—it is the same with passenger mileage—becomes a standard figure, a common denominator so to speak, to which you can refer almost every operation, every rate and fare charged, all money spent, and all work done on the railway. Let me put it in the words of one of the witnesses, Mr. Priestly, who gave remarkably clear evidence on the whole subject. Mr. Priestly has been Under-Secretary to the Indian Government, secretary to the Railway Board there, and is now agent or general manager of the South Indian Railway. He says:—
"I cannot see how it is possible for any one to form any reasonable idea of how his business is being conducted if the different, factors making up the business are not resolved into some unit which expresses the service performed. The service on a railway is transportation. That transportation involves the carriage of quantity for distance. The multiplication of one of these factors by the other represents the service performed, and the terms in common use to express the results are passenger miles and ton miles. These are the only factors which express the service performed without any possibility of error."

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What we want to get at is the service performed by the railways. As shareholders, as the public, as traders, and as Members of Parliament we want to know what a railway is doing in return for the great privileges granted to it. I would point out that this ton-mileage is not an average figure but an actual total figure. Although the goods and passengers have been carried various distances, the railway has actually carried so many tons and so many passengers one mile. I make this observation because I know some people object to average figures. I have no such objection myself. How can you know—how can you state—the relative wealth or the relative trade of a country except by dividing its capital or its trade by the number of its population? That is an average figure. But who will say that it is not a useful one? And while the cardinal figure of ton mileage and passenger mileage—the basis of the whole of this system—is an actual figure, it is true that many valuable returns based upon this fundamental unit have to be stated in average figures; but they are valuable all the same in giving some insight into the real work of a railway. To my mind the greatest value of ton and passenger mileage is the opportunity for comparison that it gives us. It enables a railway to compare the work done in one year with the work done in another. Above all, it enables the public to compare the work done by one railway with the work done by another railway. The right hon. Gentleman stated as their great virtue that these new returns would enable them to compare the work of one railway with that of another railway. They will do nothing of the kind; they do not touch the work done by any railway, because they do not tell you how far a railway has carried its goods or passengers.
As this is the first time that this very important matter has come before the House, I should like to reply to one or two points which have been raised against these proposals. It is said that these returns are very elaborate and very difficult to compile. But one railway in this country does compile them, namely, the North-Eastern Railway, which, under the direction, and I think I may add the genius, of Sir George Gibb, introduced this system some years ago; and you have the distinct evidence of Sir George Gibb himself and all his officials that the compilation of these details is a very easy matter and that the cost is inconsiderable. It is also said that while this ton and pas-
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senger mileage is suited to other countries, it is unsuited to this country. I have never heard a single sound or plausible argument which went to prove that contention. The conditions which exist in this country exist in other countries—the conditions as to traffic, small consignments, and so on—so that that argument cannot be maintained for a moment. I have had occasion to refer once or twice in my remarks to the attitude of railway men with regard to these statistics. I referred to our experience at Euston. In spite of that and of the strong opposition made by the representatives of the railways on this Committee, I venture to hope that that attitude will become more modified as time goes on.
With regard to English railways other than the North-Eastern, I do not expect to receive much support from railway directors in this House—at present. Here, again, I wish to avoid all cause of offence, and, therefore, I will only say that I have never understood the English railway directorial mind on this subject either in relation to the full comprehension of the real work of their railways and its scientific conduct or in relation to the larger demand for full information and real data from railways in view of the privileges and monopolies Parliament has granted them. As I have already said, my title, such as it is, to speak on this subject, is not derived from the honour of being a railway director, or the misfortune of being, except in the most limited way, a railway shareholder. But, if I were either, I can only say, after a careful study of the subject for some years, that I would gladly welcome these real statistics. I should feel better able to perform my duties as a director, and far better able to understand my investment. But, speaking as a Member of Parliament, I have not the slightest hesitation in saying that these statistics are essential to this House in approaching every railway question that comes before it—every attack on railways and every defence of railways. With their help Members of this House would be much better equipped to approach such subjects if they knew the real work done on the railways. From all points of view it would be better for the railways themselves to come out into the open and tell Parliament and the public what they are really doing; what effective work they are performing in return for the unique privileges and monopolies which Parliament has granted them, and what relation that work bears, not only to the money it costs them, but to the

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money they charge the public for it. I am grateful to the House having listened with patience to the remarks which I have made in order to get my points out. In conclusion, I venture to appeal to the right hon. Gentleman. He has counselled delay in this matter. He has said, "Educate the public mind; get the railway directors on your side." Why, Sir, we have delayed, and the interests of scientific industrial organisation has delayed for twenty-two years. Are we to delay for ever? In the Railway and Canal Traffic Act, 1888, Section 32, there was a clause, and this may not be commonly known, giving power to the Board of Trade to alter and add to the then existing railway returns—which are now forty years old—as the Board of Trade may from time to time think fit. That clause was inserted by Sir Robert Giffen with the express purpose of introducing these ton-mile and passenger-mile statistics. Sir Robert Giffen knew, what more enlightened people were coming to understand, the enormous power that these particular statistics had played in the development and success of the Indian rail-ways. He knew how the American railways had taken these statistics over from India they are not an American invention; Englishmen have the credit for them—and of the very gigantic strides made by American railways by means of these statistics. You have the evidence before the Committee of a Canadian witness, who said that these statistics had been made compulsory by the Inter-State Commission, and that the whole of the managers in the United States and Canada considered them essential for economical working.
We have waited for twenty-two years. We have had this Committee. We have had this great body of evidence. If I were to read the names of distinction and define the personality of the gentlemen who gave evidence in favour of this policy, I think it would impress the House. We cannot do anything more. What more are we to do? Are we to have another Committee, to sit for another three years, and draw up another Report? And are we to have the whole case presented again? I say that the Report now at the service of the right hon. Gentleman presents the case in a manner which would enable any strong Minister who had the real interests of the reform of the railway industry at heart to take a decision. I venture to appeal to the right hon. Gentleman, even at the eleventh hour, to recog-
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nise the real merits of the policy of reform which is so fully put forward in the Report, and to throw the weight of his name, reputation, and responsible office on the side of intelligent and practical reform.
Mr. MUSPRATT: I regret very much that I, as the first speaker upon the side of the traders, should be able to contribute so very little to this discussion compared to the interesting speech to which we have just listened, but I venture to think that if there is not a great tenacity on the part of traders to bring their interests forward on this occasion, it is due to the fact that all traders are united in appreciation of the lines upon which this Bill is going. I do not say that throughout the country there may not be differences of opinion as to whether these statistics might not go further; but I do think that everyone feels that this Bill is a very great contribution towards the question of railway management and administration in this country. I do think that we ought not to minimise the great value that the statistics which are suggested, and the schedules which are suggested, will be to the traders of the country. I think it is only right to mention that the attitude which the railway companies have taken towards traders has vastly improved during the last few years. It is possible that the increase of competition, both in the passenger traffic and in heavy traffic, has helped to produce a more healthy attitude on the part of the railway companies, and so, although this Bill may not go as far as many would wish. I do think that with an improved mind upon the part of the railway companies towards the traders, who, after all, are their very best customers, that a great deal will be done by the establishment of these figures.
The hon. Gentleman who has just spoken pointed out some of the most important ways in which there should be extension and improvement. I do not wish in any way to express an opinion upon the knotty point of ton mileage and passenger mileage, but I do hope when we get into Committee, when there will be an opportunity of discussing the matter in greater detail, the House will not jump too rapidly to a conclusion either upon that one or any other point. I know that, in very great concerns where we average too ruthlessly we are apt to get figures too quickly picked up and arranged without relation to the facts upon which they are established. I am not expressing an

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opinion one way or another, but I say that the House should, throughout this matter, keep very carefully in mind that great danger.
We have huge and vast concerns in regard to the industries of this country; they have different aspects in different parts of the country and they have different conditions in different parts of the country. I do not necessarily think that the ton mileage or the passenger mileage is going to be of great utility in comparing one railway and another, but when we get the details and the mass of figures, as we shall do by these various schedules, it does, enable anyone who is prepared to give time and trouble to thinking out these matters in their right positions, and in their right proportions the degree of information that they require. Personally I should only like to suggest one increase of the information which is to be given, and that is in return 14, in regard to the question of goods traffic and receipts. It seems to me that if we ask the railway company to give tonnage receipt, etc., for merchandise and coal and other minerals, we might go a step further and ask them to give the same returns for the detailed classes as contained in the classification for rates under the law regulating the rates which may be charged. I venture to believe that with that addition and all the various information which will be available, whether one gets ton mileage or passenger mileage added there will be a big fund of information available to railway directors and railway shareholders, and I venture to think a more important class of people, namely, their customers and passengers in this country, which would enormously help both sides to act in the best way towards the railways.
Mr. EVELYN CECIL: I desire to say a word in support of my right hon. Friend (Mr. Stuart-Wortley) in so far as he asks that an appeal should be given both as regards financial accounts and as regards part of the statistical reports. I think many of us will bear in mind the history, in quite a different Department, of the Weir Charity quite recently, where a Government Department exercised its powers very largely in favour of instituting a scheme of its own in preference to the scheme laid down for it in the will of the testator, and went so far as to take £5,000 of the testator's money in order to start its own scheme. The moral to be derived from that particular story is that a Gov-
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ernment Department ought not to be left too free to act entirely upon its own responsibility.
I think the same applies here. I think the Board of Trade in this matter ought to be subject to the revision of some judicial body, and I do not know why in the existing circumstances the Railway Commissioners should not be the body to refer to. In Part I. of the Bill, the Railway Commissioners are the Court of Appeal; and it seems to me both logical and reasonable in the public interests that appeals should also be given to them as regards Part II. of the Bill. The hon. Member for Stockport does not appear to approve of that body. I should like to ask him whether he is prepared to approve of any body at all. Would he approve, for instance, of three judges of the High Court? I want an absolutely fair, impartial, judicial body, and I should have thought that three judges of the High Court would form such a body.
Mr. WARDLE: I have no objection to the setting up of a Committee of the House.
Mr. E. CECIL: But I want to prevent a constituency or any individual person bringing pressure to bear upon the judges to give a decision one way or the other. I think it most important that the Appeal Court should be absolutely independent, and in that connection I think the railway Commissioners would be the best. They are the only body existing at the present time which deals with such matters, and until we get a better one we must be content. In these circumstances I support my right hon. Friend in urging that an appeal should be given to the Railway Commissioners under Part II. of the Bill. The President of the Board of Trade, in taking absolute power under Part II. of the Bill, expressed the hope that that absolute power would be used with discretion. I think that proved that in the mind of the right hon. Gentleman there was a fear that in the future there may be some President of the Board of Trade who would not use that discretion. I have every confidence in the fairness of the present holder of that office, and I am perfectly sure he is anxious to act fairly by all parties, and I hope his administration of the Board of Trade will be as successful as was his administration at the Post Office.
With regard to this question of ton mileage statistics, the last speaker stated —and quite truly I think—that the attitude of railway companies towards traders

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had improved in recent years. I am sure that is so, and that it is the desire of railway companies that there should be full and complete understanding with traders. I think it is in the mutual interest of the companies and the traders that there should be that understanding, and certainly, so far as I am concerned, I shall do everything I can to improve that understanding. I think the hon. Gentleman who spoke last also was quite correct in saying that the amount of statistics asked for might be abused. It is very easy to get a large number of figures which may be misinterpreted by the general public. I was looking through some of the proposals under these schedules, and I found, for instance a return dealing with the amount of ballast laid down, giving the number of yards in each year. That is a figure, which might easily be misinterpreted, and I do not know that it is of any great use. At present the ballast laid down by railway companies is very much more durable and useful that that laid down some years ago, and the result is that less will be laid down in succeeding years, and consequently the figure will be less, because the ballast which is now being laid down lasts longer. The hon. Member for Westminster referred to ton mileage statistics, and he mentioned enlightened countries which had adopted it. I notice the countries which he considers enlightened are those which agree with his own view, and the countries which he considers are not enlightened are those which happen to disagree with him.
Mr. BURDETT-COUTTS: Which are they?
Mr. EVELYN CECIL: The hon. Member said this country was one, and two others were Portugal and Belgium. That really proves the case against him, because I also happen to have had opportunities of discussing this question when I was a member of the International Railway Congress, which met at Washington in 1905, and the opinion there, as I gathered from a number of railway experts, was that the reason for the use of ton-mileage statistics in America, India, and large countries of that kind was because you had enormous areas of traffic. Take America, for instance, where you have great masses of ore and coal as carriage right across the Continent regularly throughout the year in regular quantities, consequently it is of great importance to these railways that they should know exactly how the
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quantity in one year tallies with another; but look at the situation in this country and in Portugal and Belgium. Is there any kind of traffic of that kind to any great extent here? Not at all. The kind of traffic we have in this country is quite different. My hon. Friend behind me (Mr. Burdett-Coutts) says that every great railway manager thinks ton mileage statistics are essential. I can only tell him that I have spoken to a great many railway managers, and a considerable number of them do not consider them to be anything of the kind.
Mr. BURDETT-COUTTS: That is not what I said. I stated that every builder of railways in England and every great railway manager in countries where they have got railway ton-mileage consider it essential. I did not say anything about managers here.
Mr. EVELYN CECIL: The great railway managers to whom I have spoken in America do not believe in the absolute essentialness of ton-mileage statistics, and they believe still less in the necessity for such statistics in small countries like Great Britain. I do not think the hon. Member's view, however much it may be suitable for certain countries, is by any means equally suitable for this country or for the conditions which exist here. I hope the hon. Member will bear in mind that this Committee has taken great trouble in the matter. They have inquired into this subject exhaustively for over three years, and it is not unreasonable under these circumstances to say, as the President of the Board of Trade has said, that their opinion is not sufficiently unanimous to justify compulsory ton mileage statistics being asked for from the railway companies. I could enlarge considerably on this subject, but I commend what I have said to the fairness of the House. I feel sure I can safely leave it to the fairness of the right hon. Gentleman who has control of this Bill to see that these statistics, which are not in my opinion for the public benefit, to any considerable extent in this country are not imposed because they would involve an immense amount of labour. I leave the matter with confidence in the hands of the right hon. Gentleman, and I hope he will see that such conditions are not compulsorily imposed upon railway companies.
Sir FREDERICK BANBURY: I wish to emphasise the remarks made by my hon. Friend and my right hon. Friend on

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this question. I desire to point out that, as far as my company is concerned, we do not object to this Bill provided it will give us an appeal upon the question of alterations in these statistics. I wish to say that I have had the honour of an interview with the Chairman of the Committee only yesterday, and he told me that it was certainly his wish, and I believe he also said the unanimous wish of the Committee, that there should be an appeal. They did not put it in their report, because they did not quite know what tribunal to set up, and they left that matter to the right hon. Gentleman.
Mr. BUXTON: They suggested a Committee.
Sir F. BANBURY: At any rate, they suggested that there should be an appeal, and that is what I was told yesterday. I would point out to the right hon. Gentleman that even from his own point of view this is not a very large question, but from our point of view it may be a very large one. The right hon. Gentleman conceded an appeal on the question of accounts, but he has not conceded an appeal upon the statistics, because I understand that he says at the present moment the Board of Trade can demand statistics, and the railway companies are bound to give them. Let me point out that, although this is so, the Board of Trade are under no obligation to publish them, and if they do publish them they are published in the Blue Book. If the right hon. Gentleman's Bill is carried as it stands, the President of the Board of Trade may demand any quantity of statistics which may cost large sums of money, and they must be made public, because they will have to be sent to the shareholders of the company, and that is only another way of making them public. I do not think the right hon. Gentleman has ever been called upon to earn his money in business, but if he had he would know that the first essentials of a good business man is not to publish to your rivals the system under which you work. What the right hon. Gentleman proposes is simply making the railway companies to publish unnecessarily to their rivals the means by which they earn their living. There can be no useful object in that. As this Session is supposed to be one for compromises, I sincerely hope that the right hon. Gentleman will endeavour to meet the railway companies, and, in conclusion, I will repeat that, so far as my company is concerned, they are prepared to meet the right hon. Gentle-
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man if he will concede to them the small concession of the appeal which I have asked for. The House will concede, I think, that the railway companies have some cause for alarm. As my hon. Friend stated just now, the tendency on the part of the different Departments of the Government is to arrogate to themselves unlimited power. My hon. Friend has stated what the Charity Commissioners did in the Weir Trust, and anyone who has read what the judges said will remember the strictures which Lord Justice Farwell passed upon the Charity Commissioners were very strong. The railway companies are justified in saying, "While we concede that Parliament has the right to say, 'You may, and you are to give certain returns,' we have the right to say that if those returns are to be ordered, either Parliament must order them and not a Department, or, at any rate, we ought to have an appeal to the Railway Commissioners."
An hon. Member below the Gangway objected to the Railway Commissioners, but they are the only body in existence, and why he objected to them I do not know. Their decisions are by no means always in favour of the railway companies. A few years ago, when the Great Northern, the Great Central, and the Great Eastern sought to amalgamate under what we thought was a clear Act of Parliament the Railway Commissioners held we were wrong. They sent us to the House of Commons, and everybody knows that our project was withdrawn. I do not think, therefore, the Railway Commissioners can be in any way considered to have any bias towards railway companies. They have always acted fairly and honourably, and I can see no reason why they should not be entrusted as a court of appeal in this instance. Personally, being a Member of the House of Commons, I would prefer that all these things should be settled by the House of Commons. I cannot understand why hon. Gentlemen opposite, who are ostensibly great supporters of the House of Commons and great believers in the House of Commons, some of them, I think, as a sole Chamber, should always be so desirous of taking away that power which the House of Commons ought to retain in its own hands and of placing it in the hands of a Minister or a Department. I hope the House of Commons will do one of two things in this matter—either retain its own control over any alteration that may be made or see that some appeal is giver to some independent body.
Mr. HUDSON: If there had been nothing said except one observation of the hon. Baronet, I think it would have been sufficient to have convinced the House of the necessity of having a greatly improved system of railway returns made compulsory. He made the significant remark that a business firm such as a railway company, I presume, would not publish a return that would enlighten other people as to their business.
Sir F. BANBURY: Rivals.
10.0 p.m.
Mr. HUDSON: Call them rivals if you will. That is what happens now. The railway returns now do not enlighten anyone. That is the whole of our complaint, and what we want is to give enlightenment not only to shareholders, but to traders and all concerned as to what the railway is doing for the money they are spending and for the money they charge to the passengers and to the public. It is quite the fair thing to do. A railway is a State-given monopoly. Railway companies are afforded powers which rightly belong to the State itself, and I cannot see any reason why a company of that character should not disclose its transactions. I was rather amused with the remark that this House ought to settle the matter, and not even the Board of Trade. I also think so. I think this House ought, to definitely settle the matter for all time in such a manner that the returns will disclose exactly the business transactions of the company. Some ten years ago a Commission was set up to inquire into accidents, and before any Return could be obtained the companies had to be asked to kindly return to the Board of Trade the number of men employed. They were not allowed to publish that return, and they are not allowed to publish a return of that character to-day. Why should not the State, which gives the power of the company, not only have returns, but have the power to have them published for the general well-being and knowledge of the community. I say, in perfect accord with the hon. Member for Westminster (Mr. Burdett-Coutts), that unless you get ton-mileage you do not disclose the business of the company. You cannot do it; it is an utter impossibility. I was rather interested in the suggestion of the hon. Member for Liverpool (Mr. Muspratt) that there should be a classification of goods. I should not object to that, but that is much more difficult than miles, and he would find it so if he had to keep the accounts of a rail-
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way company. Why should there be any quibbling about this matter at all? Surely we have arrived at the time when we ought to settle it once and for all. Surely a State Department ought to have sufficient knowledge as to what is necessary and right to be called for and published without having to go to such a judicial body and such a costly concern as the Railway and Canal Commission. I support the Second Reading of this Bill, but I hope the President of the Board of Trade will at least take a firm hand in this matter and see that the returns are published to the public and nation generally.
Mr. R. THOMPSON: As a director of a railway company in Ireland, I would like to say that as far as I understand, the railway companies there warmly approve of the action of the President of the Board of Trade in providing an appeal in the matter of accounts. I would ask the right hon. Gentleman if he can see his way to allow some appeal in the matter of business accounts. I think probably it is not too much to ask. The railway companies, no doubt, have perfect confidence in the right hon. Gentleman as President of the Board of Trade, but a new king might arise who might make matters very difficult and expensive, and, therefore, I urge the right hon. Gentleman to grant this appeal if he possibly can. After all, it is a very trifling concession.
Mr. BUXTON: I am obliged to the House for its general acceptance of the principles of this Bill. One or two points have been raised, but they are matters rather for the Committee, and clearly they will have to be considered at that stage. I have already expressed to the House my view with regard to ton-mileage returns. I wanted this Bill to be non-controversial as far as possible, and therefore we mainly dealt with the recommendations on which the Committee were unanimous. There was very acute controversy on some of the points which have been raised in the course of this Debate, and they will have to be considered when we reach the Committee stage. With regard to the question of appeal, I have already explained that I thought a difference might be made between the appeals, as regards accounts, and as regards statistical returns. The hon. Member said he thought the Committee recommended an appeal. I have read the Report carefully, and that is certainly not the impression left on my mind. What they proposed was that a

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Committee might be appointed to consider these questions and report any alterations it might deem desirable to the Board of Trade. I do not know why such a Committee should not meet the views of lion. Members who have spoken on both sides. It would probably give protection to the companies against any arbitrary action on the part of the Board of Trade and at the same it would provide the elasticity which other hon. Members desire. This is a point, however, I should like the House to consider in Committee: Would it be an advantage to create a body of this sort which might take the place of the Railway Commission? I hope the House will allow this Second Reading to be taken without a Division, and I shall be glad on the Committee stage to consider the suggestions which have been brought forward.
Question, "That the Bill be now read a second time," put, and agreed to.
Bill read a second time, and committed to a Standing Committee.

LONDON ELECTRIC SUPPLY BILL.
Order read, for resuming Adjourned Debate on Question [22nd March], "That the Bill be now read a second time."
Questioned again proposed. Debate resumed.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read a second time."—[Mr. Illingworth.]
Question put, and agreed to.
Ordered, "That the Bill be committed to a Select Committee of Five Members, Three to be nominated by the House and Two by the Committee of Selection:
"That all Petitions against the Bill presented Five clear days before the meeting of the Committee be referred to the Committee:
"That the Petitioners praying to be heard by themselves, their Counsel, or Agents, be heard against the Bill, and Counsel or Agents heard in support of the Bill:
"That the Committee have power to send for persons, papers, and records:
"That Three be the quorum."—[Mr. Illingworth.]
ADJOURNMENT.—Resolved, "That this House do now adjourn."—[Mr. Gulland.]
Adjourned accordingly:it Ten minutes after Ten o'clock.