§ In the event of Her Majesty Queen Mary surviving His Majesty the King, there shall be paid to her during her life an annuity of seventy thousand pounds.
§ Motion made and Question proposed, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."
§ Mr. CLYNESI beg to move to leave out Clause 3. It does not appear to me to be in harmony with the general purposes of the Bill. The Bill provides for an existing condition of things, but this provides for a condition of things which we all desire may be far off. That condition ought to be provided for by the Parliament in existence when the event contemplated by the Clause does occur, thirty or forty years hence. It is surely improper that this House should decide what should be done on matters of money at that time. We have just heard from the First Commissioner of Works, that he has great difficulty in settling matters affecting a period eighteen months in advance, and if that is too great a task for him to undertake it is surely too great a task for 2258 this House to settle a matter that may not arise for thirty years or more. The general attitude assumed by Ministers when a point of this sort is raised on any subject is that they ought not to anticipate events, but wait for the set of circumstances brought before them arising and deal with them as they occur. In this case we seek merely to apply a principle which has already been laid down to the circumstances contemplated in this case. A bad principle runs through the whole of Clauses 3 and 4. Why should this House grant £10,000 a year to princes who have accomplished nothing greater than attaining the age of 21 years? Again, I do not see why such a great distinction should be drawn between sons and daughters in this matter. The amount is £10,000 for a son. and £6,000 for a daughter. We have not put down any Amendments on this particular side of the question as to the amount. We do not quarrel so much with the amount, although we think they are excessive. I move this Amendment, principally on the ground that it is not the business of Parliament to anticipate these circumstances. We cannot measure the worth of our monarchs by the amount of money we give them, but there might be circumstances, a generation hence, which 2259 would cause us to offer a different amount. Members of the Royal Family are supposed to be patterns and examples of what ought to be done in the domestic life of the nation. It is a most uncommon thing in private life to anticipate these events, and the principle which operates in the one case should operate in the other.
§ Mr. LLOYD GEORGEI agree with what the hon. Member has said that it is not sufficient to say that we are following precedent in this matter unless there is some very good reason for it. I do not think the hon. Member has made out a case why the House of Commons should not follow precedent as regards Clauses 3 and 4. The matter was carefully considered by a Committee in 1890 and they came to the conclusion it was undesirable that when a contingency arose we should consider each particular case. That was always a very delicate and difficult business, and gave rise to discussions which I do not think were particularly useful or instructive. I think it is far better that we should provide for the whole of these contingencies at the beginning of the reign. From the point of view of the Treasury, nothing is gained, but quite the reverse by leaving it to Parliament to make provision on each individual occasion. I think, on the whole, hon. Members may rest satisfied that in the long run the Treasury would be the loser. It is possible that at a time when public opinion might be influenced by sentiment the expense would be double that if we make provision now in cold blood. The hon. Gentleman said that my right hon. Friend the First Commissioner of Works found it difficult to anticipate eighteen months in advance. That is purely a question of anticipating what repairs would be required to a palace, and is a totally different matter. I think anyone who examined what happened during the reign of Queen Victoria would come to the conclusion that it is a better bargain for the State to consider the thing as a whole rather than when these contingencies arise, and when circumstances
§ give rise to emotions which interfere with calm judgment. Nothing would be saved from the point of view of economy. The Committee of 1889, after careful consideration of the whole circumstances, came to the conclusion that it was in the interests of economy—these proposals were not merely extending but were widening, being proposed not only to sons and daughters but also to grandchildren—and there was a general feeling that the matter should be faced at the beginning of a reign if there should be a limitation. It was from the point of view of protecting Parliament against demands of that kind that an arrangement of this sort was recommended at the beginning of a reign, and I say that as one interested officially in seeing there is strict economy in these matters.
§ Mr. BARNESThe Chancellor of the Exchequer, whose statement, of course, settles the matter, told us that this proposal would be in the interests of economy, and that probably if Parliament were called upon to provide for the sons and daughters of the King in times of emotion the country might be disposed to give even more than the sums now proposed. I fail to see any need for emotion on a young man attaining his 21st birthday, or on a young woman attaining her majority. It seems to me probable, if this matter were left open and Parliament were called upon to deal with it as occasion arose, that Parliament would get pretty well tired of having constant repetitions of the claims of sons and daughters and other relations of the Royal Family. Therefore, there does not seem anything of a convincing character to my mind in the argument of the Chancellor of the Exchequer. I can only say I regret that the Chancellor of the Exchequer has not found better and stronger arguments in support of this particular proposal. I shall go into the lobby with my hon. Friend.
§ Question put, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."
§ The Committee divided: Ayes, 236; Noes, 34.
2261| Division No. 138.] | AYES. | [12.25 a.m. |
| Acland-Hood, Rt. Hon. Sir Alex. F. | Barclay, Sir Thomas | Brackenbury, Henry Langton |
| Ainsworth, John Stirling | Barnston, Harry | Bridgeman, William Clive |
| Allen, Charles P. | Barrie, H. T. (Londonderry, N.) | Brocklehurst, William B. |
| Armitage, Robert | Barry, Redmond J. (Tyrone, N.) | Brunner, John F. L. |
| Ashley, Wilfred W. | Beale, William Phipson | Bryce, J. Annan |
| Baird, John Lawrence | Benn, W. (Tower Hamlets, S. Geo.) | Bull, Sir William James |
| Baker, Sir Randolf L. (Dorset, N.) | Bentinck, Lord Henry Cavendish- | Burns, Rt. Hon. John |
| Balcarres, Lord | Bird, Alfred | Buxton, C. R. (Devon, Mid) |
| Balfour, Robert (Lanark) | Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine | Buxton, Rt. Hon. S. C. (Poplar) |
| Banbury, Sir Frederick George | Black, Arthur W. | Carlile, Edward Hildred |
| Banner, John S. Harmood- | Boyle, W. Lewis (Norfolk, Mid) | Carr-Gomm, H. W. |
| Castlereagh, Viscount | Henderson, H. G. H. (Berkshire) | Raphael, Herbert Henry |
| Cator, John | Henry, Charles S. | Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel |
| Cave, George | Higham, John Sharp | Rea, Walter Russell |
| Cawley, H. T. (Lancs., Heywood) | Hillier, Dr. Alfred Peter | Rice, Hon. Walter Fitz-Uryan |
| Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) | Hobhouse, Rt. Hon. Charles E. H. | Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln) |
| Cecil, Lord Hugh (Oxford Univ.) | Hohler, Gerald Fitzroy | Roberts, Sir J. H. (Denbighs) |
| Chaloner, Col. R. G. W. | Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield) | Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall) |
| Chambers, James | Horner, Andrew Long | Roch, Walter F. (Pembroke) |
| Channing, Sir Francis Allston | Hume-Williams, William Ellis | Ronaldshay, Earl of |
| Clay, Capt. H. H. Spender | Hunt, Rowland | Rothschild, Lionel de |
| Clough, William | Hunter, Sir Charles Roderick (Bath) | Runciman Rt. Hon. Walter |
| Clyde, James Avon | Illingworth, Percy H. | Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland) |
| Coates, Major Edward F. | Johnson, William | Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel) |
| Collins, Godfrey P. (Greenock) | Jones, Edgar R. (Merthyr Tydvil) | Sanders, Robert A. |
| Collins, Sir Wm. J. (St. Pancras, W.) | Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) | Sanderson, Lancelot |
| Compton-Rickett, Sir J. | Jones, William (Carnarvonshire) | Schwann, Sir Charles E. |
| Cooper, Richard Ashmole (Walsall) | Kerr-Smiley, Peter Kerr | Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.) |
| Corbett, A. Cameron | King, Sir Henry Seymour (Hull) | Seely, Col., Right Hon. J. E. B. |
| Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. | Kyffin-Taylor, G. | Shortt, Edward |
| Cowan, W. H. | Lambert, George | Smith, H. B. Lees (Northampton) |
| Craig, Captain James (Down, E.) | Lane-Fox, G. R. | Soares, Ernest Joseph |
| Craig, Norman (Kent, Thanet) | Leach, Charles | Stanley, Hon. G. F. (Preston) |
| Craik, Sir Henry | Levy, Sir Maurice | Starkey, John Ralph |
| Crawshay-Williams, Eliot | Lewis, John Herbert | Staveley-Hill, Henry |
| Crosfield, Arthur H. | Lincoln, Ignatius Timothy T. | Steel-Maitland, A. D. |
| Crossley, Sir William J. | Llewelyn, Venables | Stewart, Gershom (Ches. Wirral) |
| Dairymple, Viscount | Locker-Lampson, G. (Salisbury) | Stewart, Sir M'T. (Kirkc'dbr'tsh.) |
| Dalziel, Sir James H. (Kirkcaldy) | Locker-Lampson, O. (Ramsay) | Strachey, Sir Edward |
| Dawes, J. A. | Lockwood, Rt. Hon. Lt.-Col. A. R. | Summers, James Woolley |
| Denman, Hon. Richard Douglas | Low, Sir Frederick (Norwich) | Sutherland J. E. |
| Dickinson, W. H. (St. Pancras, N.) | Mackinder, Halford J. | Sykes, Alan John |
| Dickson, Rt. Hon. C. S. (Glasgow, E.) | Macmaster, Donald | Talbot, Lord Edmund |
| Dixon, Charles Harvey | Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J. | Taylor, John W. (Durham) |
| Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- | M'Laren, F. W. S. (Lincs., Spalding) | Taylor, T. C.(Radcliffe) |
| Du Cros, Arthur P. (Hastings) | Mallet, Charles Edward | Terrell, George (Wilts, N.W.) |
| Duncannon, Viscount | Marks, George Croydon | Terrell, Henry (Gloucester) |
| Dunn, A. Edward (Camborne) | Masterman, C. F. G. | Thompson, Robert (Belfast, North) |
| Falconer, James | Meehan, Patrick A. (Queen's Co.) | Thynne, Lord Alexander |
| Ferens, T. R. | Meysey-Thompson, E. C. | Toulmin, George |
| Fisher, William Hayes | Middlebrook, William | Trevelyan, Charles Philips |
| Fleming, Valentine | Mildmay, Francis Bingham | Tryon, Captain George Clement |
| Forster, Henry William | Millar, James Duncan | Ure, Rt. Hon. Alexander |
| France, Gerald Ashburner | Montagu, Hon. E. S. | Verrall, George Henry |
| Furness, Stephen | Morpeth, Viscount | Walker, Col. W H. (Lancashire) |
| Gelder, Sir William Alfred | Morrison-Bell, Major A. C. | Ward, W. Dudley (Southampton) |
| George, Rt. Hon. D. Lloyd | Munro, Robert | Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid) |
| Gibbins, F. W. | Murray, Capt. Hon. Arthur C. | Waring, Walter |
| Gibbs, George Abraham | Muspratt, Max | Warner, Sir Thomas Courtenay |
| Gibson, Sir James Puckering | Neilson, Francis | Waterlow, David Sydney |
| Gilmour, Captain John | Newton, Harry Kottingham | Wheler, Granville C. H. |
| Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford | Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield) | White, Major G. D. (Lancs., Southport) |
| Gordon, John | Norton, Captain Cecil William | White, J. Dundas (Dumbartonshire) |
| Gretton, John | Nuseey, Sir T. Willans | White, Sir Luke (York, E.R.) |
| Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward | Nuttall, Harry | Whyte, A. F. (Perth) |
| Guest, Major | O'Neill, Hon. A. E. B. (Antrim, Mid) | Williams, Penry (Middlesbrough) |
| Gwynne, R. S. (Sussex, Eastbourne) | Orde-Powlett, Hon. W. G. A. | Willoughby, Major Hon. Claude |
| Haldane, Rt. Hon. Richard B. | Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William | Willoughby de Eresby, Lord |
| Hamersley, Alfred St. George | Paget, Almeric Hugh | Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E.R.) |
| Hamilton, Marquess of (Londonderry) | Palmer, Godfrey Mark | Wilson, Hon. G. G. (Hull, W.) |
| Harcourt, Rt. Hon. L. (Rossendale) | Pease, Rt. Hon. Joseph A. | Wilson, T. F. (Lanark, N.E.) |
| Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose) | Peto, Basil Edward | Wing, Thomas |
| Hardy, Laurence | Pollard, Sir George H. | Wood, John (Stalybridge) |
| Harrison-Broadley, H. B. | Pollock, Ernest Murray | Wood, T. M'Kinnon (Glasgow) |
| Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale) | Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H. | Worthington-Evans, L. |
| Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, West) | Priestley, Sir W. E. B. (Bradford, E.) | Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart- |
| Havelock-Allan, Sir Henry | Pringle, William M. R. | Younger, George (Ayr Burghs) |
| Haworth, Arthur A. | Quilter, William Eley C. | |
| Hayward, Evan | Radford, George Heynes | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Master of Elibank and Mr. Gulland. |
| Helme, Norval Watson | Raffan, Peter Wilson | |
| NOES. | ||
| Arbuthnot, Gerald A. | Hardie, J. Keir | Rendall, Athelstan |
| Barnes, George N. | Henderson, Arthur (Durham) | Robinson, S. |
| Barton, William | Holt, Richard Durning | Scott, A. H. (Ashton-under-Lyne) |
| Bentham, George Jackson | Jowett, Frederick>William | Shackleton, David James |
| Bowerman, Charles W. | King, J. (Somerset, N.) | Watt, Henry A. |
| Byles, William Pollard | Luttrell, Hugh Fownes | Wilkie, Alexander |
| Chancellor, Henry George | Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester) | Williams, John (Glamorgan) |
| Clynes, John R. | Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk Burghs) | Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton) |
| Gill, Alfred Henry | Nannetti, Joseph P. | Winfrey, Robert |
| Glanville, H. J. | O'Grady, James | |
| Glover, Thomas | Parker, James (Halifax) | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr. G. Roberts and Mr. C. Duncan. |
| Hall, Frederick (Normanton) | Pickersgill, Edward Hare | |
| Hancock, John George | Pointer, Joseph |