HC Deb 25 July 1910 vol 19 cc1852-9

Order for consideration read.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now considered."

Mr. HUDSON

moved, as an Amendment, to leave out the word "now," and at the end of the Question to add "upon this day three months."

I rise to move the Amendment which stands on the Order Paper in my name that this Bill be considered on this day three months, but according to the Rules of the House I have not the opportunity of dealing with the matter with which I intended. The Rules of the House do not permit me to go into the general conduct of the railway company. There are very few opportunities of doing that, and this is not one of them. There is in Clause 4 of this Bill, however, a most important matter that should have the very closest attention before it takes its place in the legislation of the country. This railway company has already had powers given to it under an Act passed in 1897, but they allowed those powers to run out of date, and now they come to Parliament and ask that they should be extended for a further period. This Bill allows that for five years. But if a railway company cannot use in the first instance the powers that are given to it, and if this House is to be troubled from time to time with extending those powers, it is a matter which should be considered very closely. It is quite true that there is an important Clause in the Bill upon which the whole Bill really rests, which stipulates that if they do not now carry out the various operations for which powers are given that they will cease entirely at the end of the time limit, which is now mentioned. It also deals in another place in the Bill in Clause 7 with the raising of capital by the company for certain purposes, and there are certain moneys which have been raised by this railway which, I think, ought not to be raised in the way in which they have been. Money in hand from the ordinary revenue can be applied to this particular undertaking in one, two, or three schemes under the Bill. I do not know whether it will be in order to review how this money is raised in certain cases. It is part, undoubtedly, of the money in hand from current revenue, and money that is raised in a way detrimental to the interests of the general public. If restriction is placed on the public getting the necessary convenience that they require, or upon those who serve the public, I think this question of raising revenue which may be in hand for this purpose is a matter of serious consideration for the House, and I think, the promoters being under the necessity to come to Parliament from time to time to amend their powers, those powers should be used for the general welfare of the public. I think they themselves cannot defend their own action in raising revenue under certain circumstances.

Sir F. BANBURY

I understand that the Clause which the hon. Member is alluding to is one permitting the company to raise money for capital purposes, or to use money which they have raised for capital purposes. It has nothing whatever to do with revenue.

Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER

That appears to me to be the case. I was waiting to see how the hon. Member would connect his remarks with that matter.

Mr. HUDSON

I was misled somewhat by the wording of the Clause. It merely reads: "May apply to the purpose of this order, to which capital is properly applied, any money which they now have in their hands." One would not suppose, at first sight, that this is all raised otherwise than by revenue. I base my objections against the further consideration of the Bill, and support my Amendment, on the ground that this company should not have an extended power for five years to carry out the Clauses of the Act which they got in 1897. If they have neglected to use them they ought to have been more attentive to business and to have taken the power they possess under the Act, and there would have been no necessity to come to Parliament now.

Mr. RAMSAY MACDONALD

In seconding the Amendment, I should like to raise another point altogether. Paragraph 4 of the Schedule of the Provisional Order Bill gives the company certain general powers. It enables it to extend the period of construction, and the principal Bill gives the company certain powers over stations and land acquired in connection with stations. Certain things have arisen in the administration of the company's business which require a pledge to be given on the authority of the company before the House ought to extend the powers granted by the main Bill. I should like to ask whether the Board of Trade has any pledge to give to the House as to how Clause 4 of the Order is to be administered? At present the company allows political matters to influence it in the administration of its affairs.

Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER

The only question which can arise on paragraph 4 of the Schedule is the extension of the time proposed. It is impossible to go back at this stage to the principal Act.

Mr. RAMSAY MACDONALD

If the Bill should happen to be defeated to-day the whole of the powers that the company has under the provisions of the Bill will have to lapse. Is it not in order to consider whether this House, in view of certain things which have happened in connection with the general administration of the company, should consider whether it is prepared to extend their powers which could not be put into operation unless the Bill were passed?

Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER

To attempt to go into questions which might have been raised on the principal Act at this stage of a Bill of this kind would not be within the Rules of this House.

Mr. RAMSAY MACDONALD

Supposing it can be proved, as it can, that the company is not using its powers properly, is it not in order that the House at this stage should consider whether it is going to extend those powers?

Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER

That is a question which in certain cases has been raised on the Second Reading of Railway Bills but not on the further stages of Report or Third Reading. In this particular case, by the Scottish Procedure Act, the House has deliberately divested itself of that opportunity in order to send these Bills to a Commission in Scotland, where matters such as the hon. Member referred to may be inquired into.

Mr. RAMSAY MACDONALD

Is that ruling to hold good when, as a matter of fact, the circumstances which have arisen, and to which we desire to call the attention of the House, arose after the Bill was before the Scotch Committee?

Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER

I am afraid that is so. Any matter raised must be directly relevant.

Mr. RAMSAY MACDONALD

That being your ruling, of course it is impossible for us to raise the merits or the demerits of this Bill. I hope most sincerely that the House will divide and show this company what we think of its conduct, which it is exceedingly fortunate it is impossible to discuss now on account of the Standing Orders of the House. I shall vote against the consideration of the Bill if my friends go to a Division.

Mr. WATT

I desire to support the Amendment. This company came to this House as far back as 1897 and asked powers to construct the railway. They were limited as to the time within which the construction was to be carried out. Instead of proceeding with the construction of the railway in the ordinary way, they delayed, and had to come again to the House in 1901 to ask that their powers should be extended. Again, in 1905, having further delayed, they came for the third time and asked another extension of time. Now, in 1910, they are asking a further extension of five years to complete this particular railway, I think that action on the part of the Highland Railway Company is making a fool of this House. They are making the limitation of time placed by the House on the construction of the railway an absolute farce. Their action shows that they are not in real earnest in regard to the making of the railway. Under the cloak of this fourth application for an extension of time, the railway company seek to give themselves, in paragraphs 5 and 6 of the Schedule, further powers in quite different directions. In Clause 5 of the Schedule they seek an alteration in the time for closing their registers—for what purpose I know not. They seek that twenty-eight days previous to those on which ordinary and extraordinary meetings are held should be the period for closing the register instead of the longer time which is the rule now. In paragraph 6 of the Schedule they ask powers to abandon the making of the Ivergary and Fort Augustus Railway. I venture to think that this is the type of Bill which should not be encouraged by the House.

Mr. TENNANT

My hon. Friend (Mr. Watt) seems to be very ill to please, for he objects to this railway company abandoning the project, and he also objects to their being given further time in which to carry out the project. I do not know whether my hon. Friend thinks the Scottish railways are gold mines, but I can assure him, having some knowledge of the subject, that they are nothing of the kind. I have not the smallest doubt that if the Highland Railway Company could have raised the money for this particular work they would have carried it out long ago; but people know that in sparsely populated districts they are not going to earn very large dividends by investing in a railway of that kind, and therefore they will not supply the capital for that particular class of enterprise. It is very difficult nowadays to raise money for home railways. I have pointed out more than once that the policy of the House has rendered it difficult for railway companies to raise further capital. This is a Bill asking an extension of time for a work which, I hope, will be carried to a successful conclusion, and, speaking for myself, I shall certainly vote for the consideration of the Bill.

Question put, "That the word 'now' stand part of the Question."

The House divided: Ayes, 145; Noes, 94.

Division No. 130.] AYES. [8.15 p.m.
Abraham, William (Dublin Harbour) Falconer, James Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester)
Adkins, W. Ryland D. Fenwick, Charles Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk Burghs)
Alden, Percy Ferens, Thomas Robinson MacVeagh, Jeremiah
Allen, Charles P. Ferguson, Rt. Hon. R. C. Munro M'Callum, John M.
Asquith, Rt. Hon. Herbert Henry Gelder, Sir William Alfred M'Laren, F. W. S. (Lincs. Spalding)
Baker, Harold T. (Accrington) George, Rt. Hon. D. Lloyd Mallet, Charles Edward
Baker, Joseph Allen (Finsbury, E.) Glanville, Harold James Marks, George Croydon
Barclay, Sir Thomas Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford Meagher, Michael
Barlow, Sir John Emmott Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.)
Barry, Redmond J. (Tyrone, N.) Hackett, John Menzies, Sir Walter
Barton, William Hall, Frederick (Normanton) Millar, James Duncan
Benn, W. (Tower Hamlets, S. Geo.) Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose) Molteno, Percy Alport
Bethell, Sir John Henry Harmsworth, R. L. Mooney, John J.
Bowles, Thomas Gibson Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, West) Morgan, G. Hay (Cornwall)
Brace, William Havelock-Allan, Sir Henry Morton, Alpheus Cleophas
Brady, Patrick Joseph Hazleton, Richard Munro, R.
Brocklehurst, William B. Hemmerde, Edward George Neilson, Francis
Brunner, John F. L. Henry, Charles Solomon Nolan, Joseph
Bryce, J. Annan Higham, John Sharp Norton, Capt. Cecil W.
Burns, Rt. Hon. John Hobhouse, Rt. Hon. Charles E. H. O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)
Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas Hogan, Michael O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)
Buxton, C. R. (Devon, Mid) Hooper, Arthur George O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)
Buxton, Noel (Norfolk, North) Hope, John Deans (Fife, West) O'Dowd, John
Buxton, Rt. Hon. S. C. (Poplar) Horne, Charles Silvester (Ipswich) Ogden, Fred
Chapple, Dr. William Allen Howard, Hon. Geoffrey O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N.)
Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston S. Hudson, Walter O'Malley, William
Clough, William Hughes, Spencer Leigh O'Neill, Charles (Armagh, S.)
Collins, Godfrey P. (Greenock) Illingworth, Percy H. Palmer, Godfrey Mark
Collins, Stephen (Lambeth) Isaacs, Sir Rufus Daniel Pearce, William
Compton-Rickett, Sir J. Johnson, William Pointer, Joseph
Condon, Thomas Joseph Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H.
Corbett, A. Cameron Jones, William (Carnarvonshire) Pringle, William M. R.
Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. Joyce, Michael Raffan, Peter Wilson
Cowan, W. H. Keating, Matthew Rea, Walter Russell
Cullinan, John Lambert, George Reddy, Michael
Dawes, J. A. Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, W.) Redmond, John E. (Waterford)
Denman, Hon. R. D. Leach, Charles Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)
Devlin, Joseph Lehmann, Rudolf C. Robertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradford)
Dickinson, W. H. Levy, Sir Maurice Robertson, John M. (Tyneside)
Dillon, John Lewis, John Herbert Robinson, S.
Doris, William Lincoln, Ignatius Timothy T. Roch, Walter F. (Pembroke)
Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness) Luttrell, Hugh Fownes Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland)
Elverston, Harold Lyell, Charles Henry Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel)
Seely, Col., Right Hon. J. E. B. Ure, Rt. Hon. Alexander Wilkie, Alexander
Sherwell, Arthur James Vivian, Henry Williams, John (Glamorgan)
Soares, Ernest Joseph Wadsworth, John Williams, Penry (Middlesbrough)
Spicer, Sir Albert Walker, H. De R. (Leicester) Wilson, T. F. (Lanark, N.E.)
Sutherland, John E. Walton, Sir Joseph Winfrey, Richard
Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe) Ward, W. Dudley (Southampton) Wing, Thomas
Tennant, Harold John Wardle, George J. Wood, T. M'Kinnon (Glasgow)
Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.) Waterlow, David Sydney Young, William (Perth, East)
Thomas, James Henry (Derby) Watt, Henry A. Yoxall, Sir James Henry
Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton) White, Sir Luke (Yorks, E.R.)
Toulmin, George Whyte, A. F. (Perth) TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Master of Elibank and Mr. Gulland.
Trevelyan, Charles Philips Wiles, Thomas
NOES.
Acland-Hood, Rt. Hon. Sir Alex, F. Fletcher, John Samuel Pretyman, Ernest George
Adam, Major William A. Forster, Henry William Randles, Sir John Scurrah
Ashley, Wilfred W. Gardner, Ernest Remnant, James Farquharson
Attenborough, Walter Annis Gastrell, Major W. Houghton Rice, Hon. Walter Fitz-Uryan
Baker, Sir Randolf L. (Dorset, N.) Gooch, H. C. Ronaldshay, Earl of
Balcarres, Lord Goulding, Edward A. Salter, Arthur Clavell
Baldwin, Stanley Gretton, John Sanders, Robert A.
Barnston, Harry Gwynne, R. S. (Sussex, Eastbourne) Sanderson, Lancelot
Benn, Ion Hamilton (Greenwich) Hall, D. B. (Isle of Wight) Sandys, G. J. (Somerset, Wells)
Boyle, W. Lewis (Norfolk, Mid) Hamersley, Alfred St. George Stanier, Beville
Boyton, James Healy, Timothy Michael (Louth, N.) Stanley, Hon. G. F. (Preston)
Brackenbury, Henry Langton Hohler, Gerald Fitzroy Stewart, Sir M'T. (Kirkcudbright)
Bridgeman, W. Clive Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield) Strauss, Arthur
Brotherton, Edward Allan Hume-Williams, William Ellis Sykes, Alan John
Butcher, John George (York) Jackson, Sir J. (Devonport) Talbot, Lord Edmund
Carlile, Edward Hildred Jardine, Ernest (Somerset, East) Taylor, John W. (Durham)
Cautley, Henry Strother Jowett, Frederick William Terrell, Henry (Gloucester)
Cave, George Keswick, William Thomson, W. Mitchell (Down, North)
Chaloner, Col. R. G. W. King, Sir Henry Seymour (Hull) Thorne, William (West Ham)
Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J. A. (Worc'r.) Knight, Capt. Eric Ayshford Thynne, Lord Alexander
Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry Law, Andrew Bonar (Dulwich) Tobin, Alfred Aspinall
Clyde, James Avon Llewelyn, Venables Tryon, Captain George Clement
Clynes, John R. Locker-Lampson. G. (Salisbury) Twist, Henry
Cooper, Richard Ashmole (Walsall) Locker-Lampson, O. (Ramsay) Valentia, Viscount
Craig, Charles Curtis (Antrim, S.) Lockwood, Rt. Hon. Lt.-Col. A. R. Verrall, George Henry
Craig, Norman (Kent, Thanet) Mackinder, Halford J. Walker, Col. W. H. (Lancashire)
Croft, Henry Page Macmaster, Donald Ward, A. S. (Herts, Watford)
Dairymple, Viscount Middlemore, John Throgmorton Wheler, Granville
Dixon, Charles Harvey Morpeth, Viscount White, Major G. D. (Lancs. Southport)
Du Cros, Arthur P. (Hastings) Mount, William Arthur Willoughby, Major Hon. Claude
Duke, Henry Edward Newdegate, F. A. Worthington-Evans, L.
Faber, Capt. W. V. (Hants, W.) Newton, Harry Kottingham
Fell, Arthur Nield, Herbert TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Viscount Castlereagh and Mr. H. S. Foster.
Fleming, Valentine Orde-Powlett, Hon. G. A.
Division No. 131.] AYES. [9.52 p.m.
Acland-Hood, Rt. Hon. Sir Alex. F. Fleming, Valentine Mount, William Arthur
Adam, Major William A. Fletcher, John Samuel Newdegate, F. A.
Adkins, W. Ryland D. Forster, Henry William Newton, Harry Kottingham
Allen, Charles Peter Foster, Harry S. (Lowestoft) Nield, Herbert
Arbuthnot, Gerald A. Gastrell, Major W. Houghton Norton, Capt. Cecil W.
Ashley, Wilfred W. Gooch, Henry Cubitt Orde-Powlett, Hon. W. G. A.
Attenborough, Walter Annis Gretton, John Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William
Bagot, Captain J. Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward Paget, Almeric Hugh
Baker, Joseph Allen (Finsbury, E.) Gulland, John William Pearce, William
Baker, Sir Randolf L. (Dorset, N.) Hall, D. B. (Isle of Wight) Pretyman, Ernest George
Balcarres, Lord Hamersley, Alfred St. George Randles, Sir John Scurrah
Baldwin, Stanley Hamilton, Marquess of (Londonderry) Rea, Walter Russell
Banbury, Sir Frederick George Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale) Remnant, James Farquharson
Banner, John S. Harmood- Havelock-Allan, Sir Henry Rice, Hon. Walter Fitz-Uryan
Barnston, Harry Helme, Norval Watson Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesell)
Bathurst, Hon. Allen B. (Glouc., E.) Hills, John Walter (Durham) Robertson, John M.(Tyneside)
Benn, Ion Hamilton (Greenwich) Hohler, Gerald Fitzroy Robinson, Sidney
Benn, W. (Tower Hamlets, S. Geo.) Holt, Richard Durning Rutherford, Watson
Bentinck, Lord H. Cavendish- Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield) Salter, Arthur Clavell
Boyle, W. Lewis (Norfolk, Mid.) Horne, Wm. E. (Surrey, Guildford) Sanders, Robert Arthur
Boyton, James Howard, Hon. Geoffrey Sanderson, Lancelot
Bridgeman, William Clive Hume-Williams, William Ellis Sandys, G. J. (Somerset, Wells)
Brocklehurst, William B. Hunter, Sir Charles Rodk. (Bath) Soares, Ernest Joseph
Brunner, John F. L. Illingworth, Percy H. Stanier, Beville
Bull, Sir William James Jardine, Ernest (Somerset, East) Stanley, Hon. G. F. (Preston)
Butcher, John George (York) Kemp, Sir George Stewart, Sir M'T. (Kirkc'dbr'tsh.)
Buxton, Rt. Hon. S. C. (Poplar) Keswick, William Strauss, Arthur
Carille, E. Hildred King, Sir Henry Seymour (Hull) Sykes, Alan John
Cautley, Henry Strother Lambert, George Talbot, Lord Edmund
Cave, George Law, Andrew Boner (Dulwich) Tennant, Harold John
Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) Leach, Charles Terrell, George (Wilts, N.W.)
Chaloner, Col. R. G. W. Lewis, John Herbert Terrell, Henry (Gloucester)
Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J. A. (Worc'r.) Llewelyn, Venables Tobin, Alfred Aspinall
Clough, William Locker-Lampson, G. (Salisbury) Ure, Rt. Hon. Alexander
Clyde, James Avon Locker-Lampson, O. (Ramsay) Valentia, Viscount
Cooper, Capt. Bryan R. (Dublin, S.) Lonsdale, John Brownlee Verrall, George Henry
Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow) Luttrell, Hugh Fownes Ward, A. S. (Herts, Watford)
Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. Lyell, Charles Henry Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid)
Craig, Charles Curtis (Antrim, S.) Mackinder, Halford J. Waterlow, David Sydney
Craig, Norman (Kent, Thanet) Macmaster, Donald Wheler, Granville C. H.
Croft, Henry Page M'Callum, John M. White, Major G. D. (Lancs., Southport)
Dawes, James Arthur M'Laren, F. W. S. (Lincs. Spalding) White, Sir Luke (Yorks, E.R.)
Denman, Hon. Richard Douglas Mallet, Charles Edward Wood, John (Stalybridge)
Dickson, Rt. Hon. C. S. (Glasgow, E.) Marks, George Croydon Wood, T. M'Kinnon (Glasgow)
Duke, Henry Edward Mason, James F. Worthington-Evans, L.
Elibank, Master of Middlemore, John Throgmorton
Faber, Capt. W. V. (Hants, W.) Mitchell, William Foot TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr. J. M. Henderson and Mr. Mitchell
Fell, Arthur Molteno, Percy Alport
Ferguson, Rt. Hon. R. C. Munro Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen) Thomson.
Flannery, Sir J. Fortescue Morpeth, Viscount
NOES.
Abraham, William (Dublin Harbour) Henry, Charles Solomon O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)
Alden, Percy Higham, John Sharp O'Dowd, John
Baker, Harold, T. (Accrington) Hogan, Michael Ogden, Fred
Barnes, George N. Hooper, Arthur George O'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, S.)
Boland, John Pius Hope, John Deans (Fife, West) Palmer, Godfrey Mark
Brace, William Horne, Charles Silvester (Ipswich) Parker, James (Halifax)
Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas Hughes, Spencer Leigh Pickersgill, Edward Hare
Buxton, Noel (Norfolk, North) Johnson, William Pointer, Joseph
Buxton, C. R. (Devon, Mid) Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H.
Chapple, Dr. William Allen Jowett, Frederick William Pringle, William M. R.
Clough, William Joyce, Michael Raffan, Peter Wilson
Clynes, John R. Keating, Matthew Reddy, Michael
Collins, Godfrey P. (Greenock) King, Joseph (Somerset, North) Richards, Thomas
Collins, Stephen (Lambeth) Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, W.) Roberts, George H. (Norwich)
Cooper, Richard Ashmole (Walsall) Lehmann, Rudolf C. Robertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradford)
Cullinan, John Levy, Sir Maurice Roch, Walter F. (Pembroke)
Devlin, Joseph Lincoln, Ignatius Timothy T. Roe, Sir Thomas
Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness) Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk Burghs) Samuel, S. M.(Whitechapel)
Elverston, Harold MacVeagh, Jeremiah Taylor, John W. (Durham)
Gelder, Sir William Alfred Meagher, Michael Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)
Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.) Thomas, James Henry (Derby)
Hackett, John Menzies, Sir Walter Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton)
Hall, F. (Yorks, Normanton) Millar, James Duncan Twist, Henry
Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose) Mooney, John J. Vivian, Henry
Harmsworth, R. Leicester Morgan, G. Hay (Cornwall) Wadsworth, John
Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, West) Morton, Alpheus Cleophas Walker, H. De R. (Leicester)
Hazleton, Richard Munro, Robert Walters, John Tudor
Walton, Sir Joseph Wilkie, Alexander Wing, Thomas
Wardie, George J. Williams, John (Glamorgan) Yoxall, Sir James Henry
Watt, Henry A. Williams, Penry (Middlesbrough)
Wedgwood, Josiah C. Wilson, T. F. (Lanark, N.E.) TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr. Hudson and Mr. J. R. Macdonald
Whyte, A. F. (Perth) Winfrey, Richard
Wiles, Thomas

Main Question put, and agreed to:—Bill considered; to be read the third time tomorrow.