§ (1) In the application of this Part of this Act to Scotland, unless the context otherwise requires:—
§ The expression "land" does not include teinds, titles or offices of honour, or any servitude, feu-duty, or ground annual, or any rentcharge as defined by this Act:
§ The expression "rent" includes yearly or other rent, toll, duty, royalty, or other reservation by the acre, the ton, or otherwise; and for the purpose of Section twenty of this Act includes feu-duty and ground annual:
416§ The expression "interest" in relation to land includes the landlord's right of reversion to the subjects let on the determination of the lease, but does not include heritable securities, bonds of provision, jointures, annuities, or other capital or annual sums, or other debts secured upon heritage:
§ The expression "owner" means the fiar of the land, except that where land is let on lease for a term of which more than fifty years are unexpired, the tenant under the lease shall be deemed to be the owner, and includes an institute or heir of entail in possession, and the life-renter of land which is settled within the meaning of the Finance Act, 1894, whether such fiar, institute or heir of entail in possession, or life-renter is or is not sui juris:
417§ The expression "freeholder" includes "fiar," "life-renter of land settled within the meaning of the Finance Act, 1894," and "institute or heir of entail in possession":
§ The expression "incumbrances" includes any heritable security, or other debt or payment secured upon heritage:
§ "Servitudes" shall be substituted for easements, and "Court of Session" for High Court.
§ (2) Any order of a referee as to costs shall be enforceable as a recordeddecree arbitral:
§ (3) Sub-section (1) of Section two of this Act shall be construed as if after paragraph (d) thereof the following paragraph were added (that is to say):—
§ "(e) where the occasion is the grant of any feu of the land or the creation of any ground annual thereon, the value of the fee simple of the land calculated on the basis of the consideration for such grant or creation, by way of feu duty, ground annual, or otherwise."
§ Where Increment Value Duty falls to be collected on a feu contract or feu charter or a contract of ground annual, it shall be paid by the person granting the feu or creating the ground annual, and for the purposes of this Part of this Act that person shall be deemed to be the transferor and the contract or charter to be the instrument.
§ Amendments made: In Sub-section (1), after "servitude" ["offices of honour, or any servitude"], to insert the words "superiority, casualty."—[Mr. Scott Dickson.]
§ Amendment made: In Sub-section (1), to leave out "or any rentcharge as defined by this Act."—[The Lord Advocate.]
§ Mr. CLYDEmoved, in Sub-section (1), after "annual" ["feu duty or ground annual"], to insert the words "or any incorporeal heritable right."
The effect of these words is merely to bring into line the definition, for Scotch purposes, of the word "land" with the definition of land for English purposes and to exclude certain kinds of right which one need not at present define, but I am sure the Government do not mean to include them.
§ Mr. CLYDEmoved, in Sub-section (1), to leave out "and for the purpose of Section twenty of this Act includes feu-duty and ground annual."
The general definition of the word "rent," as the Bill stands, accepts the feu-duty and excepts the ground annual. But, for the purpose of Section 20, it proposes to make feu-duty or the ground annual the same thing as the rent. Section 20 had for its purpose the obtaining of information, and the broad provision of it is that every person who pays rent in respect of land, and everyone who is an agent for any person who receives rent, shall, on being required by the Commissioners, furnish to them the name, and address of the person to whom he pays rent. Under the definition as proposed in the Bill the result would be this, that every person who pays a Feu Duty or a ground annual, and every person who is an agent for anyone who receives a Feu Duty or ground annual, shall, on being required by the Commissioners, furnish the name and address of the persons to whom he pays the Feu Duty or on whose behalf he receives it. Inasmuch as it already appears, from the Amendment accepted on the first Clause, that a superiority is not included in the definition of land, it seems to be the purest surplusage to enable the Commissioners to trace out the persons who are superiors and to whom Feu Duties are paid. It would, of course, be quite otherwise if the purpose was to enable people to find out who the lessor or the lessee is, because that would be vital for the purpose of collecting some of these duties, the Reversion Duty in particular; but, inasmuch as no tax is to be imposed upon a superiority at all, the purpose of enabling the Commissioners to ascertain who may happen to be the superior is hard to find. One is inclined to conclude that this Clause is the survival of a previous draft of the Bill which had undergone some change. At all event, I propose, unless some reason can be given for hunting after superiors who are not to be taxed, as compared with hunting after the lessors who are to be taxed, to except from the Bill this additional inquisitorial power of the Commisioners.
§ Mr. UREThis is a small and unimportant matter. Probably this power will never be exercised to any extent, but it is thought desirable that the Commissioners should have the power of checking the information which they get if they had any reason to doubt its accuracy.
§ Mr. CLYDEI could quite understand that if by means of Section 20 you could have discovered the amount of the Feu Duty; but that is exactly what under Section 20 the Commissioners have no power to ask. The only thing the Commissioners are authorised to discover in this way is the name and address of the person to whom rent, for the purposes of the Act, if the Bill stands as it is, is payable. They have not a shadow of a right to ask the amount. That surely must be an after-
§ thought, because that is not the purpose of Section 20. Since the amount is not recoverable in this way, and nothing is recoverable except the name and address of a person who is never to be touched by the taxation at all, would it not be wiser to leave the Section out altogether?
§ Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Clause."
§ The Committee divided: Ayes, 235; Noes, 97.
421| Division No. 578.] | AYES. | [6.25 p.m. |
| Abraham, W. (Cork, N.E.) | Ferguson, R. C. Munro | Lyell, Charles Henry |
| Acland, Francis Dyke | Ffrench, Peter | Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester) |
| Agar-Robartes, Hon. T. C. R. | Field, William | Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk Burghs) |
| Ainsworth, John Stirling | Fiennes, Hon. Eustace | Mackarness, Frederic C. |
| Ambrose, Robert | Flynn, James Christopher | Maclean, Donald |
| Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth) | Freeman-Thomas, Freeman | MacNeill, John Gordon Swift |
| Baker, Joseph A. (Finsbury, E.) | Fullerton, Hugh | MacVeigh, Charles (Donegal, E.) |
| Balfour, Robert (Lanark) | Gladstone, Rt. Hon. Herbert John | M'Callum, John M. |
| Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight) | Glendinning, R. G. | M'Laren, H. D. (Stafford, W.) |
| Barnard, E. B. | Glover, Thomas | M'Micking, Major G. |
| Barnes, G. N. | Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford | Markham, Arthur Basil |
| Barran, Rowland Hirst | Greenwood, Hamar (York) | Massie, J. |
| Barran, Sir John Nicholson | Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward | Masterman, C. F. G. |
| Barry, Redmond J. (Tyrone, N.) | Griffith, Ellis J. | Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.) |
| Beale, W. P. | Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill | Micklem, Nathaniel |
| Beauchamp, E. | Gulland, John W. | Molteno, Percy Alport |
| Bellairs, Carlyon | Gwynn, Stephen Lucius | Mond, A. |
| Benn, Sir J. Williams (Devonport) | Haldane, Rt. Hon. Richard B. | Mooney, J. J. |
| Berridge, T. H. D. | Harcourt, Rt. Hon. L. (Rossendale) | Morton, Alpheus Cleophas |
| Bethell, Sir J. H. (Essex, Romford) | Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose) | Muldoon, John |
| Boland, John | Hardy, George A. (Suffolk) | Murphy, John (Kerry, E.) |
| Bottomley, Horatio | Hart-Davies, T. | Murray, James (Aberdeen, E.) |
| Brace, William | Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale) | Myer, Horatio |
| Branch, James | Harwood, George | Nannetti, Joseph P. |
| Bright, J. A. | Hayden, John Patrick | Napier, T. B. |
| Brooke, Stopford | Hazleton, Richard | Nicholson, Charles N. (Doncaster) |
| Brunner, Rt. Hon. Sir J. T. (Cheshire) | Hedges, A. Paget | Nolan, Joseph |
| Bryce, J. Annan | Henderson, Arthur (Durham) | Nussey, Sir Willans |
| Burke, E. Haviland- | Henderson, J. McD. (Aberdeen, W.) | Nuttall, Harry |
| Burns, Rt. Hon. John | Henry, Charles S. | O'Brien, K. (Tipperary, Mid) |
| Burnyeat, W. J. D. | Higham, John Sharp | O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) |
| Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas | Hobhouse, Rt. Hon. Charles E. H. | O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W.) |
| Buxton, Rt. Hon. Sydney Charles | Hogan, Michael | O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.) |
| Byles, William Pollard | Holland, Sir William Henry | O'Grady, J. |
| Channing, Sir Francis Allston | Hope, John Deans (Fife, West) | O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N.) |
| Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R. | Hope, W. H. B. (Somerset, N.) | O'Malley, William |
| Cleland, J. W. | Hudson, Walter | O'Shaughnessy, P. J. |
| Clough, William | Idris, T. H. W. | Parker, James (Halifax) |
| Clynes, J. R. | Illingworth, Percy H. | Paul, Herbert |
| Cobbold, Felix Thornley | Isaacs, Rufus Daniel | Paulton, James Mellor |
| Collins, Sir Wm. J. (St. Pancras, W.) | Jackson, R. S. | Pearce, William (Limehouse) |
| Compton-Rickett, Sir J. | Jardine, Sir J. | Philips, John (Longford, S.) |
| Condon, Thomas Joseph | Johnson, John (Gateshead) | Pickersgill, Edward Hare |
| Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow) | Jones, Leif (Appleby) | Pointer, J. |
| Corbett, C. H. (Sussex, E. Grinstead) | Jones, William (Carnarvonshire) | Pollard, Dr. G. H. |
| Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. | Jowett, F. W. | Price, Sir Robert J. (Norfolk, E.) |
| Cotton, Sir H. J. S. | Joyce, Michael | Radford, G. H. |
| Crean, Eugene | Keating, M. | Raphael, Herbert H. |
| Crooks, William | Kekewich, Sir George | Reddy, M. |
| Cullinan, J. | Laidlaw, Robert | Redmond, John E. (Waterford) |
| Curran, Peter Francis | Lamb, Edmund G. (Leominster) | Rees, J. D. |
| Davies, Ellis William (Elfion) | Lambert, George | Rendall, Athelstan |
| Davies, Timothy (Fulham) | Lamont, Norman | Richards, Thomas (W. Monmouth) |
| Devlin, Joseph | Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, W.) | Richards, T. F. (Wolverhampton, W.) |
| Dickinson, W. H. (St. Pancras, N.) | Lehmann, R. C. | Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln) |
| Duckworth, Sir James | Lever, A. Levy (Essex, Harwich) | Roberts, G. H. (Norwich) |
| Duffy, William J. | Lever, W. H. (Cheshire, Wirral) | Robertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradford) |
| Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness) | Levy, Sir Maurice | Robinson, S. |
| Elibank, Master of | Lewis, John Herbert | Robson, Sir William Snowdon |
| Evans, Sir S. T. | Lloyd-George, Rt. Hon. David | Roche, Augustine (Cork) |
| Everett, R. Lacey | Lundon, T. | Roche, John (Galway, E.) |
| Falconer, J. | Lupton, Arnold | Roe, Sir Thomas |
| Fenwick, Charles | Luttrell, Hugh Fownes | Rose, Sir Charles Day |
| Rowlands, J. | Strachey, Sir Edward | Watt, Henry A. |
| Russell, Rt. Hon. T. W. | Summerbell, T. | White, J. Dundas (Dumbartonshire) |
| Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland) | Taylor, John W. (Durham) | White, Sir Luke (York, E.R.) |
| Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel) | Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe) | White, Patrick (Meath, North) |
| Scanlan, Thomas | Tennant, H. J. (Berwickshire) | Whittaker, Rt. Hon. Sir Thomas P. |
| Schwann, Sir C. E. (Manchester) | Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.) | Williams, J. (Glamorgan) |
| Scott, A. H. (Ashton-under-Lyne) | Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton) | Williams, Sir Osmond (Merioneth) |
| Seely, Colonel | Tomkinson, James | Williamson, Sir A. |
| Shaw, Sir Charles E. (Stafford) | Toulmin, George | Wilson, Henry J. (York, W.R.) |
| Sheehan, Daniel Daniel | Ure, Rt. Hon. Alexander | Wilson, P. W. (St. Pancras, S.) |
| Sheehy, David | Vivian, Henry | Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton) |
| Sherwell, Arthur James | Walters, John Tudor | Winfrey, R. |
| Shipman, Dr. John G. | Wardle, George J. | Young, Samuel |
| Silcock, Thomas Ball | Warner, Thomas Courtenay T. | |
| Snowden, P. | Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney) | TELLERS FOR THE AYES— Mr. |
| Stanley, Hon. A. Lyulph (Cheshire) | Waterlow, D. S. | Joseph Pease and Captain Norton. |
| Stewart, Halley (Greenock) | ||
| NOES. | ||
| Arkwright, John Stanhope | Goulding, Edward Alfred | Oddy, John James |
| Balcarres, Lord | Gretton, John | Parkes, Ebenezer |
| Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (City, Lond.) | Guinness, Hon. R. (Haggerston) | Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington) |
| Banbury, Sir Frederick George | Guinness, Hon. W. E. (B. S. Edmunds) | Peel, Hon. W. R. W. |
| Banner, John S. Harmood- | Hamilton, Marquess of | Percy, Earl |
| Baring, Capt. Hon. G. (Winchester) | Hardy, Laurence (Kent, Ashford) | Powell, Sir Francis Sharp |
| Beach, Hon. Michael Hugh Hicks | Harris, Frederick Leverton | Pretyman, E. G. |
| Beckett, Hon. Gervase | Harrison-Broadley, H. B. | Remnant, James Farquharson |
| Bowles, G. Stewart | Hay, Hon. Claude George | Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall) |
| Bridgeman, W. Clive | Hermon-Hodge, Sir Robert | Ronaldshay, Earl of |
| Burdett-Coutts, W. | Hill, Sir Clement | Rutherford, John (Lancashire) |
| Butcher, Samuel Henry | Hills, J. W. | Salter, Arthur Clavell |
| Carlile, E. Hildred | Hunt, Rowland | Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.) |
| Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward H. | Joynson-Hicks, William | Sheffield, Sir Berkeley George D. |
| Cave, George | Keswick, William | Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East) |
| Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) | Kimber, Sir Henry | Smith, F. E. (Liverpool, Walton) |
| Cecil, Lord R. (Marylebone, E.) | King, Sir Henry Seymour (Hull) | Stanier, Beville |
| Clive, Percy Archer | Lambton, Hon. Frederick William | Stanley, Hon. Arthur (Ormskirk) |
| Clyde, J. Avon | Lane-Fox, G. R. | Starkey, John R. |
| Craig, Captain James (Down, E.) | Lee, Arthur H. (Hants, Fareham) | Staveley-Hill, Henry (Staffordshire) |
| Craik, Sir Henry | Lockwood, Rt. Hon. Lt.-Col. A. R. | Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester) |
| Dairymple, Viscount | Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham) | Thomson, W. Mitchell- (Lanark) |
| Dickson, Rt. Hon. C. Scott- | Long, Rt. Hon. Walter (Dublin, S.) | Thornton, Percy M. |
| Doughty, Sir George | Lonsdale, John Brownlee | Tuke, Sir John Batty |
| Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- | Lowe, Sir Francis William | Walker, Col. W. H. (Lancashire) |
| Duncan, Robert (Lanark, Govan) | Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred | Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid) |
| Faber, George Denison (York) | MacCaw, William J. MacGeagh | Whitbread, S. Howard |
| Fell, Arthur | Magnus, Sir Philip | Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E.R.) |
| Fletcher, J. S. | Mildmay, Francis Bingham | Younger, George |
| Forster, Henry William | Morpeth, Viscount | |
| Foster, P. S. | Morrison-Bell, Captain | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Sir |
| Gardner, Ernest | Newdegate, F. A. | A. Acland-Hood and Viscount Valentia. |
| Gibbs, G. A. (Bristol, West) | Nicholson, Wm. G. (Petersfield) | |
| Gooch, Henry Cubitt (Peckham) |
Question, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Clause," put, and agreed to.
§ Amendments made:
§ To insert after the word "include" ["but does not include"] the words "teinds, servitudes."—[Mr. Ure.]
§ To insert after the Amendment last made the word "superiorities."—[Mr. Scott-Dickson.]
§ To insert after the word "superiorities" the words "any interest in expectancy whether vested or not."—[Mr. Scott-Dickson.]
§ Mr. YOUNGERI should like to raise the question whether any exemption is to be given in respect of a mortgage?
§ The DEPUTY-CHAIRMANThe hon. Member handed in an Amendment to another part of the Clause raising this question.
§ Mr. YOUNGERYes, but I want to raise the question here. I made a mistake as to the proper place to make the Amendment. I wish to know whether it is or is not essential that some words should be introduced whereby the mortgagee out of possession of the land will be protected?
Mr. SCOTT-DICKSONI propose to add after the word "heritage" ["or other debts secured upon heritage"] the words "or any sporting right or any lease thereof." These words will bring the Scotch law into harmony with the English law.
§ Amendment agreed to.
423§ Mr. CLYDEI beg to move to leave out from the word "possession" ["and includes an institute or heir of entail in possession"] to the words "sui juris" at the end of the paragraph. This Amendment raises rather a larger and more important question than some of those which have preceded it. The Amendment relates to the definition of "owner," and the part of the definition which the Amendment affects is the last branch of it where, within the meaning of the word owner, there is included "the life-renter of land which is settled within the meaning of the Finance Act, 1894, whether such fiar, institute or heir of entail in possession, or life-renter is or is notsui juris." There are really two points involved in the Amendment. The greater and more important relates to the position of the life-renter. What makes this important for Scotland, as distinct from England, is the absence in Scotland of any legal machinery by means of which a person entitled only to a life estate in land can either lease or sell it or do anything with it for the purpose of enabling that land to be developed either by himself or by other people. In England there has been in full force for many years an Act of Parliament known as the Settled Land Act of 1882, under which a life-renter can obtain by application to the court full power both to lease and sell the land. I believe that the powers under that Act are even more extensive. Therefore, when under the policy of the Bill as it stands a person entitled to life estate in England is made the owner for the purpose of this taxation, and is made to pay as owner, there is no great injustice done to him as compared with the full proprietor, the owner of the fee simple, because even if he has not made application to be allowed to develop the land by leasing or selling it to some person who intends to develop it he has the power to do so. Therefore, he has the potential capacity and powers of owner. But in Scotland there is nothing analogous to that at all, and, therefore, if by way of definition you make a person who is only entitled to life estate liable to this taxation as owner, you are immediately face to face with the situation that he cannot himself develop the land, and cannot lease or sell it. Nor can he by any legal process obtain power to lease or sell it. You would, therefore, be imposing this undeveloped Land Duty upon him, although he is by law placed in a position that he can neither develop it himself nor lease or sell it to other people for that purpose. It is 424 perfectly obvious, therefore, that to subject the life renter to this taxation while there is no law in Scotland analogous to that which the English life-renter can avail himself of under the Settled Land Act, you would treat him with gross unfairness. You would saddle him with a tax on his land because it is undeveloped, although by law he cannot develop it by leasing or selling it to anybody who would develop it. That has been recognised within recent years as a great defect in the case of the life-renter in Scotland, but as such is the law at present it is not reasonable to impose this taxation on a man who is in that position. I propose, therefore, to cut the Scotch life-renter out. I understand that difficulties may present themselves to the Government arising immediately out of the question, "Who is to pay?" I say frankly that there may be a difficult question for the framers of the Bill inside of that, but, after all, it is not my business to find a solution for them. My business is to avoid the risk of injustice to those who will be placed in the position which I have indicated.
The other point which the Amendment raises is this. The definition might quite properly be made to apply both to the ordinary person who owns the fee simple of the land and also to the heir of entail. It properly applies to the heir of entail, because although he has not himself, without assistance, the power to lease or sell,, he can get it by application to the Court-Therefore that is quite right. But the part of the definition which I propose to exclude goes on to say, "whether such fiar, institute or heir of entail in possession, or life-renter is or is notsui juris." In all these cases he is to be liable to Undeveloped Land Duty in the same manner as if he were of full capacity. The difficulty in England is so dealt with by the Settled Land Act and by an Amendment of that Act as to provide a remedy in the case of a person who is wanting in capacity, whether from non-age or some other form of legal incapacity. We cannot get the benefit of that in Scotland. We have nothing analogous to the Settled Land Act of 1882. In Scotland we have machinery by means of which, in the case of pupils or lunatics, those responsible for the administration of an estate can obtain certain powers; but, unfortunately, in the case of pupilage and lunacy, the power to sell or lease are not given, according to our statute or practice, except and unless a very strong case is made out for the exercise of that power. It is in the discretion 425 of the court to grant or refuse it. Accordingly it is a power which is not exercised unless the case is one of the utmost necessity. It seems to me that it would be most unfair in the case of these people who are subject to incapacity by non-age or by the accident of lunacy to subject them to this taxation unless there is some means provided to overcome the difficulty which I have pointed out. I confess I see great difficulty in making a proposal to overcome the difficulty, but it seems to me that, just as it is necessary in fairness to put the life-renter outside the owner, so, in like manner, it is necessary to put the owner, whoever he may be, outside the definition in the Clause if he is notsui juris.Under the law as it stands he cannot keep his feet and hands free to perform those acts in developing the land which afford not only escape from taxation, but which alone enable him to do the very thing which this taxation is intended to compel or induce him to do. Therefore, I hold that these words ought to be omitted.
§ Mr. UREAs has been very clearly pointed out by my hon. Friend opposite (Mr. Clyde), there is a practical distinction between the position of a life-renter in England and in Scotland, and undoubtedly it looks at first sight as if there would be some harm done in the case of the Scottish life-renter in paying duty. But it must be remembered that the case of the life-renter in relation to duty applies only to Undeveloped Land Duty. It does not apply in the case of Increment Duty or Reversion Duty at all. The case would arise in this way: Suppose you had a portion of ground which was valuable for building purposes, and the life rent of which was enjoyed by a person who was under the disabilities which my hon. and learned Friend has pointed out. The Government would be entitled to come down upon him for the Undeveloped Land Duty unquestionably under the terms of this Clause, and my hon. and learned Friend says that that is hard upon him because he cannot sell and he cannot build upon the ground. Quite true. But", on the other hand, under the fourth Sub-section of Clause 26, if he is called upon to pay duty, he is empowered to borrow the amount and to obtain security by charging the amount upon the land, so that he really is not out of pocket.
§ Mr. CAVEUnder an Amendment adopted a short time ago, was not Undeveloped Land Duty made an exception in Clause 26?
§ Mr. UREI think not, but if that is so then I admit it would require to be very carefully considered, and I will have carefully to consider whether or not I can either alter this Clause so as to leave out the life-renter or accede to the proposition that it should be struck out altogether. It is quite clear it would only apply in a very limited number of cases, and in very exceptional cases, but my present impression is that he would be entitled to secure relief from payment of the duty, as I have pointed out; but I undertake very carefully to consider this portion of the Clause, having in view the difference of the position of the life-renter in one country and in the other. With regard to the other objection urged to this Clause, that it puts an obligation' upon one who is notsui juris.I trust that my hon. and learned Friend will accept my assurance that I will consider whether or not I should either omit it altogether or make such Amendments as will relieve the man who is notsui juris.I trust that the Committee will allow the matter to stand on that undertaking.
§ Mr. ROBERT DUNCANI would ask the right hon. Gentleman if he considers whether, under this legislation, there will be any probability of borrowing on fair terms on the security of land in the position described? I am told by professional lawyers that in future they would not advise any client to lend any money upon it.
Mr. SCOTT-DICKSONIt rather looks to me as if Sub-section (4) of Clause 26 covers all duty, and, accordingly, it may be that the life-renter has power to borrow money. But surely that is not a practical thing. It would mean that the life-renter —in the first place—every year would have to advance out of his own pocket money which he is not in a position to avoid paying, and which he cannot avoid by developing the land, as the land cannot be developed. He is to advance that every year out of his own pocket, and each advance is to be secured by a fresh bond. The position of getting an annual bond granted each year to borrow the amount would be ludicrous. Observe further that the unhappy life-renter's position would be this: He is paying a debt which is not his, and he is allowed to charge it on land which may be already fully charged; he must pay another man's debts, and then his only remedy is year after year to get a separate bond as security. The legal cost of this would run up to a considerable amount, and there is no provision for costs being 427 paid. I would ask the Lord Advocate to consider the different position of the life-renter in Scotland from that of the life-renter in England, in this respect particularly, that in England he can develop the land, whereas in Scotland he cannot. To remedy the defect which exists, the life-renter should be struck out of liability altogether.
§ Mr. UREWith regard to the remedy which the life-renter has under Clause 26, Sub-section (4), as I said originally, he has the power to borrow, but it is exactly the same power which the life-renter has under the Act of 1894. It may be an annual payment for one, two, or three years as the case may be. That, after all, is a very simple matter. However, I will take that into consideration. I realise the difference in the position of the life-renters in the two countries, and I will consider whether the position should be met by the deletion of this Clause altogether, or by such alterations as would deal with the points that have been raised.
§ Mr. A. J. BALFOURThe only alternative remedy suggested by the right hon. Gentleman on behalf of the Government is that he thinks that under a preceding clause there will be power for this unfortunate life-renter to charge the estate with the amount of the duty each year as it becomes due. Suppose the duty that becomes due is £10 a year. I know very little about law, but from general experience I should say that in order to charge the estate with that £10 you will have to pay £5, and after having gone to your legal adviser and had your legal document drawn out, and stamped and registered, you get off with an additional charge amounting to half the duty which has got to be paid. Does the right hon. Gentleman deny the accuracy of those statistical facts? I do not think he will assert that an estate can be charged with any sum, however small, under what is practically a mortgage, under a cost of £5. If you are going to pay legal expenses every year, half of the amount you give the Government by way of taxes, then you are imposing a form of taxation which is even more grotesquely extravagant than any of the other proposals which have yet appeared in this Bill. Under those circumstances I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will not imagine that by merely remodelling Sub-section (4) of Clause 26 so as to make it perfectly certain that a man 428 can charge the estate of which he is the life-renter with the amount due on account of Undeveloped Land Duty, he will remedy the grievance. As far as I can see there is no other method of dealing with the grievance, except deleting the tenant for life altogether from the incidence of this particular form of taxation. I do not know whether the right hon. Gentleman thinks that I have exaggerated the case. I do not think he does. If he does I hope he will explain by what method a life-renter can charge his estate and get the necessary deed drawn up by his lawyer and stamped at less charge than the sum which I have suggested as the absolute minimum he will have to pay, however small be the amount of the duty which is to be charged upon the corpus.
§ Mr. MITCHELL-THOMSONIt really appears that the right hon. Gentleman does not appreciate all the difficulties that are involved in accepting this alternative Amendment of Clause 26. He says that a life-renter can charge this sum and obtain security. That is the whole point. There will certainly be a great many cases where the life-renter on whom the tax would fall might charge it against the estate, but he would obtain no security at all. If you come to the method which the right hon. Gentleman suggests in Clause 26 it is quite clear you must make some more provisions to provide for the different securities on estates. If a man pays on behalf of the estate money which is due in respect of the estate, then you ought to provide that he should have a first charge over the assets of the estate, and if the right hon. Gentleman makes any such proposal he will bring about his ears a hornet's nest from the mortgagees, who at present hold charges on the estate. The whole thing is so involved that the best course for the Government to adopt would be to accept the suggestion of my hon. Friend (Mr. Clyde) and omit this very vexed Clause.
§ Mr. GEORGE YOUNGERThere is only one other possible solution—that the right hon. Gentleman should in some way put the Scottish life-renter in the same position as the English life-renter. To pile up a series of mortgages of this kind on property, which, as we know in Scotland, is often very heavily mortgaged is such a ludicrous proposal that I am surprised that the right hon. Gentleman ever made it to the House at all; but, of course, it is no more ludicrous than some of the other proposals for which the right hon. Gentleman is responsible both 429 on the platform and in the House. But I protest entirely against this system of dealing with this question in Scotland. Either the life-renter must be exempted altogether or else put in the position suggested. If the mineral Clause had remained in the Bill as it was, the position would have been perfectly hopeless. I know cases in my own county where not only is it impossible for the life-renter to develop minerals, but they are specially precluded from doing so, and they have no knowledge of who the ultimate owner of the property may be, by reason of a power of appointment of successor. But that does not arise here, because minerals are exempted.
§ 7.0 P.M.
§ Mr. CLYDEIn view of the undertaking which the right hon. Gentleman has given, I do not propose to go to a Division. I am quite sure that I may rely upon it that he will consider the matter as one clearly calling for full consideration, and it is because I believe that it will receive that full consideration that I do not press my Amendment to a Division. The other Amendment which I have on the Paper is purely consequential upon that which has been withdrawn, and if I have an undertaking from the right hon. Gentleman that it will also be considered I will not move it.
§ Mr. UREI can assure my hon. and learned friend that if we do not find a better solution, as has been suggested by the Leader of the Opposition, this one will be withdrawn.
§ Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Mr. SCOTT-DICKSONmoved to leave out, in the fifth paragraph, the words "expression 'freeholder' includes 'fiar,' "and to insert the words" expressions 'freeholder' and 'person entitled to the freehold of the land' include."
§ Mr. UREI think my right hon. and learned Friend will see that it is better not to accept that Amendment. The words "person entitled to the freehold of the land" only occur in the Definition Clause, that is to say, Clause 27, and I do not think they occur in any other part of the Bill. I think my right hon. Friend had better omit them here.
§ Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
430§ Amendments made: To insert the words "and the expression 'freehold' shall be construed accordingly" ["institute or heir of entail in possession"].
§ To insert the words "and the expression 'incumbrancer' shall be construed accordingly" ["secured upon heritage"].
§ Mr. CLYDEmoved, after the word "easements" ["shall be substituted for easements"], to insert the words "and shall be deemed to include public rights."
I am not sure that the meaning of the word "easements" is analogous to the meaning of the word "servitudes," which is not ordinarily applied so as to cover public rights over land. I am sure the intention was to make easements in Scotland include not merely private rights over land but public rights, and therefore I move.
§ Mr. UREmoved to leave out the words "and Court of Session for High Court," and to insert "'Court of Session' shall be subsituted for High Court. Provided that, for the purposes of the appeal to the High Court under Section twenty-two hereof, the judges of the Court of Session named for the purpose of hearing appeals under the Valuation of Lands (Scotland) Acts shall be substituted for the High Court, and their decision shall be final. 'Sheriff Court' shall be substituted for County Court."
This Amendment is moved with the object of obtaining that the tribunal shall not be the Court of Session, but shall consist of three judges of the Court of Session, who will be specially chosen for the purpose of hearing valuation appeals. Up to last year only two judges sat on these appeals. That was found to be an unsatisfactory tribunal when they differed in opinion. Where we have three judges specially selected for the purpose of hearing valuation appeals we think it would be better to refer all questions relating to valuation under Clause 22, and any analogous questions, to this tribunal. I propose by this Amendment that the decision of the tribunal shall be final. Under the English law an appeal is given from the High Court to the House of Lords on a statement set out under the statute of 1894. I understand that my hon. and learned Friend the Member for West Edinburgh is not quite satisfied with, this tribunal, and prefers the Court of Session. I 431 prefer this tribunal for three reasons. In the first place, these three judges will be selected for the express purpose of considering and deciding valuation appeals. My hon. and learned Friend says, "Yes, valuation appeals, but not valuations of the same character as the valuations which will be made under this Bill." Sometimes, though not always, these judges have to consider and decide the questions of the value of land apart from buildings and constructions upon the land; but in any view it would seem desirable that if legislation of this class is to pass a tribunal should be constituted which should have an opportunity of acquiring the special skill necessary to decide these questions if it does not already possess that special skill. If I took the Court of Session alone then the appeal would go to one of the two appeal courts of the Court of Session, and you might not have a continuous course. In fact, one division of the court might adopt a course which the other division of the court did not adopt, and the Committee will readily see that upon questions of valuation they are largely questions following certain rules, some of them almost equal to rule of thumb. It is of great importance that the tribunal should be accustomed to the type of work, and should follow one continuous practice. My other reason is that if there are many appeals—and they may at first be numerous, although they will gradually diminish in number as questions are decided and passed into the region of settled laws—it would be a serious handicap on the ordinary business of the court if one or other of the divisions was to be devoted to this work under the Bill. By choosing three judges of the Valuation Court, you would not hamper the ordinary business of the court to anything like the same extent. One of these judges might be chosen from one division, a second from another division, and the third from the court of first instance. In that way the ordinary business of the court would go on without being disturbed by these appeals. On all grounds, I think, the Committee will see that it is desirable to have a. special tribunal to deal with appeals. Perhaps some of my hon. and learned Friends who are members of the Scottish Bar would say whether or not they think a special division of the High Court, whose duty it would be to consider valuation appeal, would not be preferred by them, rather than taking the appeal to the High Court of Justice.
§ Mr. CLYDEmoved, to leave out from the proposed Amendment all the words after the word "court."
I gave notice of this Amendment upon the right hon. Gentleman's Amendment, the effect of which is directed to two objects. One of these is to get rid of the proposal to make the decision of the Land Valuation Court final, that having the result of excluding appeal to the House of Lords, permissible by the Bill in the case of England, and which, I think, ought to be equally permissible in the case of Scotland. The other object of my Amendment is to make the appeal procedure, so far as the tribunal is concerned, exactly analogous in Scotland to what it is in England. The difference between the Amendment as proposed by the Lord Advocate and my Amendment to his Amendment, therefore, is reduced to this, that he proposes to make the appeal, in the first instance, not to the Court of Session, which is our Scotch analogy for the High Court, but to a Land Valuation Court instead. My proposal would be to make the appeal, in the first instance, to the Court of Session, just as in England to the High Court. Therefore, the question is between the Land Valuation Court or one or other of the divisions of the Court of Session. The Court of Session has two divisions, just as there are divisions in the Court of Appeal in London. The right hon. Gentleman has already weighed the considerations both ways in regard to this matter. He says, first of all, that he prefers the Land Valuation Court because the judges of that court have had some experience of valuation questions. It is true that the judges of the Court of Session, who are from time to time appointed on the Land Valuation Court, have a certain amount of special experience in the determination of valuation questions, but these valuation questions are exclusively things which arise in our land valuation, and they relate exclusively to the ascertainment of the annual value. They never have any relation at all to the capital value or the site value, upon which the whole system of this taxation depends. Any special experience that they may gather in the course of their membership of the Land Valuation Court would be, so far as I can see, absolutely valueless in dealing with valuations of this kind. What would be desirable would be, of course, that the Court of Appeal should command 433 the greatest possible amount of respect. No one wants to encourage further appeals to the House of Lords. Now, with perfect respect to the judges composing the Land Valuation Court, I think it is quite certain that the Land Valuation Court will never command the authority and respect for its judgments which one of the ordinary divisions of the Court of Session would command. I say that especially for this reason. By far and away the most important questions which will come before the Court of Appeal, and probably ultimately the House of Lords, will be questions, not of pure valuation at all, but questions which in the main are questions of law.
I say with regard to questions of that kind, which are questions of law, it is inexpedient and unwise to substitute for the ordinary court of law a tribunal limited in numbers, and which, if it is not in experience, has that experience limited to matters which are not legal, and are not even —so far as they affect values—those which arise on this particular Statute. There is one other reason which leads me to prefer an ordinary court of law for an ordinary question. There has been no attempt to erect any special tribunal in England. It is to the ordinary court of law that the subject has an appeal in England, and why on earth should it be anything different in Scotland. If the Committee really thinks that the Land Valuation Court of three, who, if I mistake not, may not be judges out of the inner House, but may be judges of first instance; are a substitute for the ordinary law tribunal with regard to questions, almost all of which will be legal questions, it seems to me that it is neither called for nor wise. I agree that if it was possible to graft the system of valuation proposed on to the Scottish system that perhaps there would have been no doubt, but it is absolutely impossible to do so. The two valuations have no connection with each other, and therefore it seems to me on the three grounds mentioned by the right hon. Gentleman, and which I have done my best to traverse, that the better course is to allow these questions, which, as I say, are mainly questions of law, to go through the ordinary law mill, for, after all, most of them will have to end, I suspect, in the House of Lords. I beg to move.
§ Mr. UREMy answer to my hon. and learned Friend is this: that first of all the judges of the Valuation Court, although they have limited experience of questions 434 such as they will have to try under this Bill, when it becomes an Act, have that experience. They have to decide when they are considering questions of yearly value, in certain cases, what is the capital value of the ground, and on which a percentage is put, and they have to decide what is the capital value of the buildings, and a percentage has to be put upon that. I do not say that is frequently done. I do not say I attach special importance to that. What I am mainly anxious for is that this tribunal should get experience, and at once, on such questions as would be submitted upon this Bill, and that those questions would not have been submitted first to one division of the Court and then to another in the way the practice has been. We have two divisions following entirely different rules with regard to certain large questions. I think the Committee will agree that it is of the utmost importance that the decision of the tribunal should be continuous and consistent, and that we should know exactly where we stand, and that it should be this tribunal, and this alone to which questions can be submitted. Then my hon. and learned Friend said that the decisions of the gentlemen of the Valuation Court would command no respect or less than that of the Inner House. There I entirely differ from him. I think that upon questions of valuation the judgment of the Valuation Court will command the very highest respect. He says that they will be constantly called on to decide questions of law. That is so at present, as they have frequently to decide incidental questions of law in connection with valuation. They will do exactly the same thing here. In England at the present moment there is no specially constituted tribunal; but does the Committee doubt if there had been such a tribunal constituted the appeal would have been to that tribunal and not to the ordinary Appeal Court. I do not think my hon. and learned Friend has met the point to which I attach considerable importance, and that is as to the expeditious administration of the law in Scotland. There might be a serious block in the business of the court if it were necessary to send up a large number of valuation appeals to the Divisional Courts whilst they were fully occupied with their ordinary work. He said, and correctly, that the tribunal might possibly consist, and conceivably consist, entirely of three judges of first instance. It is true it might so consist, but I think he will agree with me that when the judges 435 are selecting from the Valuation Court they will have regard to the business, and will carefully select, so as to embrace not only judges of first instance, but appeal judges upon this tribunal.
Mr. SCOTT-DICKSONI confess it occurs to me, in view of what the right hon. Gentleman has just said as to the new court, that this will interfere very seriously with the ordinary work of the Court of Session, because the new tribunal may take one judge from each division, so that you will have three instead of four judges in the divisional courts. Thus you will have one away for a prolonged period. I think it would be far better to take the same course as in England, namely, to the ordinary High Court.
§ Mr. G. YOUNGERI wish to say a word in supporting the right hon. Gentleman the Lord Advocate, a not very usual position for me to occupy. I have throughout these Debates on many occasions pleaded
§ for adherence to our existing Scottish procedure in valuation. The Valuation Appeal Court is a court which I think I was responsible for suggesting in Committee upstairs, in a Bill a couple of years ago, and the Lord Advocate of the day accepted the suggestion. It would be extremely ungrateful on my part now if I were not to support my right hon. and learned Friend in the very strong case, no doubt, he has made for leaving matters as he suggested they should be left. I regret that this is-the only remnant, so far as I can see, left of our valuation system under this Finance Bill. Our Courts of First Instance are abolished for the purposes of this valuation, our assessor has disappeared, and we shall have only left the same appeal court. As being a remnant I propose to vote with the Lord Advocate on this occasion.
§ Question proposed, "That the words-proposed to be left out stand part of th? proposed Amendment."
§ The Committee divided: Ayes, 243; Noes, 92.
437| Division No. 579.] | AYES. | [7.25 p.m. |
| Abraham, W. (Cork, N.E.) | Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. | Hayden, John Patrick |
| Acland, Francis Dyke | Cotton, Sir H. J. S. | Hazleton, Richard |
| Agar-Robartes, Hon. T. C. R. | Craig, Captain James (Down, E.) | Hedges, A. Paget |
| Agnew, George William | Crean, Eugene | Hemmerde, Edward George |
| Ainsworth, John Stirling | Crooks, William | Henderson, Arthur (Durham) |
| Allen, Charles P. (Stroud) | Cullinan, J. | Henderson, J. McD. (Aberdeen, W.) |
| Asquith, Rt. Hon. Herbert Henry | Curran, Peter Francis | Henry, Charles S. |
| Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth) | Davies, Ellis William (Eifion) | Higham, John Sharp |
| Baker, Joseph A. (Finsbury, E.) | Davies, Timothy (Fulham) | Hobhouse, Rt. Hon. Charles E. H. |
| Balfour, Robert (Lanark) | Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.) | Hogan, Michael |
| Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight) | Devlin, Joseph | Holland, Sir William Henry |
| Barnard, E B. | Dickinson, W. H. (St. Pancras, N.) | Hope, John Deans (Fife, West) |
| Barnes, G. N. | Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P. | Hope, W. H. B. (Somerset, N.) |
| Barran, Rowland Hirst | Duckworth, Sir James | Hudson, Walter |
| Barran, Sir John Nicholson | Duffy, William J. | Illingworth, Percy H. |
| Beale, W. p. | Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness) | Isaacs, Rufus Daniel |
| Beauchamp, E. | Dunn, A. Edward (Camborne) | Jackson, R. S. |
| Benn, Sir J. Williams (Devonport) | Elibank, Master of | Jenkins, J. |
| Benn, W. (Tower Hamlets, St. Geo.) | Evans, Sir S. T. | Johnson, John (Gateshead) |
| Berridge, T. H. D. | Everett, R. Lacey | Jones, Leif (Appleby) |
| Bethell, Sir J. H. (Essex, Romford) | Falconer, J. | Jones, William (Carnarvonshire) |
| Boland, John | Fenwick, Charles | Jowett, F. W. |
| Bottomley, Horatio | Ferguson, R. C. Munro | Joyce, Michael |
| Brace, William | French, Peter | Kavanagh, Walter M. |
| Branch, James | Field, William | Keating, M. |
| Bright, J. A. | Fiennes, Hon. Eustace | Kekewich, Sir George |
| Brunner, Rt. Hon. Sir J. T. (Cheshire) | Freeman-Thomas, Freeman | Laidlaw, Robert |
| Bryce, J. Annan | Fullerton, Hugh | Lamb, Edmond G. (Leominster) |
| Burke, E. Haviland- | Furness, Sir Christopher | Lambert, George |
| Burns, Rt. Hon. John | Gladstone, Rt. Hon. Herbert John | Lamont, Norman |
| Bunrnyeat, W. J. D. | Glendinning, R. G. | Lever, A. Levy (Essex, Harwich) |
| Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas | Glover, Thomas | Levy, Sir Maurice |
| Buxton, Rt. Hon. Sydney Charles | Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford | Lewis, John Herbert |
| Byles, William Pollard | Greenwood, Hamar (York) | Lloyd-George, Rt. Hon. David |
| Channing, Sir Francis Allston | Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward | Lundon, T. |
| Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R. | Gulland, John W. | Luttrell, Hugh Fownes |
| Clancy, John Joseph | Gwynn, Stephen Lucius | Lyell, Charles Henry |
| Cleland, J. W. | Haldane, Rt. Hon. Richard B. | Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester) |
| Clough, William | Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose) | Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk Burghs) |
| Clynes, J. R. | Harcourt, Rt. Hon. L. (Rossendale) | Maclean, Donald |
| Cobbold, Felix Thornley | Hardie, J. Keir (Merthyr Tydvil) | Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J. |
| Collins, Sir W. J. (St. Pancras, W.) | Hardy, George A. (Suffolk) | MacNeill, John Gordon Swift |
| Compton-Rickett, Sir J. | Hart-Davies, T. | MacVeagh, Jeremiah (Down, S.) |
| Condon, Thomas Joseph | Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale) | MacVeigh, Charles (Donegal, E.) |
| Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow) | Harwood, George | M'Callum, John M. |
| Corbett, C. H. (Sussex, E. Grinstead) | Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth) | M'Laren, H. D. (Stafford, W.) |
| M'Micking, Major G. | Pointer, J. | Summerbell, T. |
| Markham, Arthur Basil | Pollard, Dr. G. H. | Taylor, John W. (Durham) |
| Marks, G. Croydon (Launceston) | Price, Sir Robert J. (Norfolk, E.) | Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe) |
| Massie, J. | Radford, G. H. | Tennant, H. J. (Berwichshire) |
| Masterman, C. F. G. | Raphael, Herbert H. | Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.) |
| Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.) | Reddy, M. | Thompson, J. W. H. (Somerset, E.) |
| Micklem, Nathaniel | Redmond, John E. (Watertord) | Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton) |
| Molteno, Percy Alport | Rees, J. D. | Tomkinson, James |
| Mond, A. | Rendall, Athelstan | Toulmin, George |
| Money, L. G. Chiezza | Richards, Thomas (W. Monmouth) | Ure, Rt. Hon. Alexander |
| Mooney, J. J. | Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln) | Vivian, Henry |
| Morrell, Philip | Roberts, G. H. (Norwich) | Walters, John Tudor |
| Morton, Alpheus Cleophas | Robertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradford) | Wardle, George J. |
| Muldoon, John | Robinson, S. | Waring, Walter |
| Murphy, John (Kerry, East) | Roch, Walter F. (Pembroke) | Warner, Thomas Courtenay T. |
| Murray, James (Aberdeen, E.) | Roche, Augustine (Cork) | Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney) |
| Myer, Horatio | Roe, Sir Thomas | Waterlow, D. S. |
| Nannetti, Joseph P. | Rose, Sir Charles Day | Watt, Henry A. |
| Nicholson, Charles N. (Doncaster) | Rowlands, J. | White, J. Dundas (Dumbartonshire) |
| Nolan, Joseph | Russell, Rt. Hon. T. W. | White, Sir Luke (York, E.R.) |
| Nussey, Sir Willans | Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland) | White, Patrick (Meath, North) |
| Nuttall, Harry | Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel) | Whittaker, Rt. Hon. Sir Thomas P |
| O'Brien, K. (Tipperary, Mid) | Scanlan, Thomas | Williams, J. (Glamorgan) |
| O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W.) | Schwann, Sir C. E. (Manchester) | Williams, Sir Osmond (Merioneth) |
| O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.) | Scott, A. H. (Ashton-under-Lyne) | Williamson, Sir A. |
| O'Doherty, Philip | Seely, Colonel | Wilson, Henry J. (York, W.R.) |
| O'Grady, J. | Shaw, Sir Charles E. (Stafford) | Wilson, P. W. (St. Pancras, S.) |
| O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.) | Sheehan, Daniel Daniel | Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton) |
| O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N.) | Sheehy, David | Winfrey, R. |
| O'Malley, William | Shipman, Dr. John G. | Wood, T. M'Kinnon |
| Parker, James (Halifax) | Silcock, Thomas Ball | Young, Samuel |
| Paul, Herbert | Snowden, P. | Younger, George |
| Pearce, William (Limehouse) | Soames, Arthur Wellesley | |
| Philipps, Col. Ivor (Southampton) | Stanley, Hon. A. Lyulph (Cheshire) | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr. |
| Philips, John (Longford, S.) | Stewart-Halley (Greenock) | Joseph Pease and Captain Norton. |
| Pickersgill, Edward Hare | Strachey, Sir Edward | |
| NOES | ||
| Arkwright, John Stanhope | Gardner, Ernest | Morrison-Bell, Captain |
| Balcarres, Lord | Gibbs, G A. (Bristol, West) | Newdegate, F. A. |
| Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (City, Lond.) | Gooch, Henry Cubitt (Peckham) | Nicholson, Wm. G. (Petersfield) |
| Banbury, Sir Frederick George | Goulding, Edward Alfred | Oddy, John James |
| Banner, John S. Harmood- | Gretton, John | Parkes, Ebenezer |
| Baring, Cat. Hon. G. (Winchester) | Guinness, Hon. R. (Haggerston) | Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington) |
| Beach, Hon. Michael Hugh Hicks | Hamilton, Marquess of | Peel, Hon. W. R. W. |
| Beckett, Hon. Gervase | Hardy, Laurence (Kent, Ashford) | Percy, Earl |
| Bowles, G. Stewart | Harris, Frederick Leverton | Powell, Sir Francis Sharp |
| Bridgeman, W. Clive | Harrison-Broadley, H. B. | Pretyman, E. G. |
| Brotherton, Edward Allen | Hay Hon. Claude George | Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel |
| Burdett-Coutts, W. | Hermon-Hodge, Sir Robert | Remnant, James Farquharson |
| Carlile, E. Hlidred | Hill, Sir Clement | Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall) |
| Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward H. | Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield) | Ronaldshay, Earl of |
| Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) | Hunt, Rowland | Rutherford, John (Lancashire) |
| Cecil, Lord R. (Marylebone, E.) | Joynson-Hicks, William | Sheffield, Sir Berkeley George D. |
| Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J. A. (Worc'r.) | Kennaway, Rt. Hon. Sir John H. | Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East) |
| Clive, Percy Archer | Keswick, William | Smith, F. E. (Liverpool, Walton) |
| Clyde, J. Avon | King, Sir Henry Seymour (Hull) | Stanier, Beville |
| Coates, Major E. F. (Lewisham) | Lambton, Hon. Frederick William | Starkey, John R. |
| Craik, Sir Henry | Lane-Fox, G. R. | Staveley-Hill, Henry (Staffordshire) |
| Dairymple, Viscount | Law, Andrew Bonar (Dulwich) | Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester) |
| Dickson, Rt. Hon. Charles Scott- | Lee, Arthur H. (Hants, Fareham) | Thomson, W. Mitchell- (Lanark) |
| Doughty, Sir George | Lockwood, Rt. Hon. Lt.-Col. A. R. | Thornton, Percy M |
| Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- | Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham) | Tuke, Sir John Batty |
| Du Cross, Arthur Philip | Long, Rt. Hon. Walter (Dublin, S.) | Walker, Col. W. H. (Lancashire) |
| Duncan, Robert (Lanark, Govan) | Lonsdale, John Brownlee | Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid) |
| Faber, George Denison (York) | Lowe, Sir Francis William | Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E.R.) |
| Fell, Arthur | Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred | |
| Fletcher, J. S. | MacCaw, Wm. J. MacGeagh | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Sir |
| Forster, Henry Wiliam | Magnus, Sir Philip | A Acland-Hood and Viscount Valentia. |
| Foster, P. S. | Morpeth, Viscount |
§ Original Question again proposed.
Mr. SCOTT-DICKSONI understand that the effect of the Lord Advocate's Amendment as it stands is that there will still be a right of appeal from the valuation judges.
§ Amendment agreed to.
§ Further Amendments agreed to:—
§ In Sub-section (3) to leave out "1" ["Sub-section (1)"] and insert "2."
§ After "the" ["the consideration for such grant"] to insert "value of the."
439§ To leave out "granting the feu or creating the ground annual," and insert "by whom or on whose behalf the feu is granted or the ground annual is created."
§ After "transferor" ["shall be deemed to be the transferor"] to insert "or the transferor on sale."
§ After the words last inserted to add "and the expressions 'transfer' and
440§ 'transfer on sale' shall be construed accordingly. The expressions 'lessor' and 'lessee' include a sub-lessor and sub-lessee and the heirs, executors, administrators, and assigns of a lessor and lessee respectively."
§ Question put, "That the Clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill."
§ The Committee divided: Ayes, 243; Noes, 94.
441| Division No. 580.] | AYES. | [7.40 p.m. |
| Abraham, W. (Cork, N.E.) | Falconer, J. | Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J. |
| Acland, Francis Dyke | Fenwick, Charles | MacNeill, John Gordon Swift |
| Agnew, George William | Ferguson, R. C. Munro | MacVeagh, Jeremiah (Down, S.) |
| Ainsworth, John Stirling | Ffrench, Peter | MacVeigh, Charles (Donegal, E.) |
| Allen, A. Acland (Christchurch) | Field, William | M'Callum, John M. |
| Allen, Charles P. (Stroud) | Fiennes, Hon. Eustace | M'Laren, H. D. (Stafford, W.) |
| Asquith, Rt. Hon. Herbert Henry | Fullerton, Hugh | Markham, Arthur Basil |
| Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth) | Furness, Sir Christopher | Marks, G. Croydon (Launceston) |
| Baker, Joseph A. (Finsbury, E.) | Gladstone, Rt. Hon. Herbert John | Massie, J. |
| Balfour, Robert (Lanark) | Glendinning, R. G. | Master-man, C. F. G. |
| Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight) | Glover, Thomas | Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.) |
| Barnard, E. B. | Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford | Micklem, Nathaniel |
| Barnes, G. N. | Greenwood, Hamar (York) | Molteno, Percy Alport |
| Barran, Rowland Hirst | Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward | Mond, A. |
| Barran, Sir John Nicholson | Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill | Money, L. G. Chiozza |
| Barry, Redmond J. (Tyrone, N.) | Gulland, John W. | Mooney, J. J. |
| Beale, W. P. | Haldane, Rt. Hon. Richard B. | Morrell, Philip |
| Beauchamp, E. | Harcourt, Rt. Hon. L. (Rossendale) | Morton, Alpheus Cleophas |
| Bonn, Sir J. Williams (Devonport) | Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose) | Muldoon, John |
| Benn, W. (Tower Hamlets, St. Geo.) | Hardie, J. Keir (Merthyr Tydvil) | Murphy, John (Kerry, E.) |
| Berridge, T. H. D. | Hardy, George A. (Suffolk) | Murray, James (Aberdeen, E.) |
| Bethell, Sir J. H. (Essex, Romford) | Hart-Davies, T. | Myer, Horatio |
| Boland, John | Harwood, George | Nannetti, Joseph P. |
| Bottomley, Horatio | Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth) | Napier, T. B. |
| Brace, William | Hayden, John Patrick | Nolan, Joseph |
| Branch, James | Hazleton, Richard | Nussey, Sir Willans |
| Bright, J. A. | Hedges, A. Paget | Nuttall, Harry |
| Brunner, Rt. Hon. Sir J. T. (Cheshire) | Hemmerde, Edward George | O'Brien, K. (Tipperary, Mid) |
| Bryce, J. Annan | Henderson, Arthur (Durham) | O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) |
| Burke, E. Haviland- | Henderson, J. McD. (Aberdeen, W.) | O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W.) |
| Burns, Rt. Hon. John | Henry, Charles S. | O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.) |
| Burnyeat, W. J. D. | Higham, John Sharp | O'Doherty, Philip |
| Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas | Hobhouse, Rt. Hon. Charles E. H. | O'Grady, J. |
| Buxton, Rt. Hon. Sydney Charles | Hogan, Michael | O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.) |
| Byles, William Pollard | Holland, Sir William Henry | O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N.) |
| Channing, Sir Francis Allston | Hope, John Deans (Fife, West) | O'Malley, William |
| Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R. | Hudson, Walter | O'Shaughnessy, P. J. |
| Clancy, John Joseph | Illingworth, Percy H. | Parker, James (Halifax) |
| Cleland, J. W. | Isaacs, Rufus Daniel | Paul, Herbert |
| Clough, William | Jackson, R. S. | Pearce, William (Limehouse) |
| Clynes, J. R. | Jardine, Sir J. | Philipps, Col. Ivor (Southampton) |
| Cobbold, Felix Thornley | Jenkins, J. | Philips, John (Longford, S.) |
| Collins, Sir Wm. J. (St. Pancras, W.) | Johnson, John (Gateshead) | Pickersgill, Edward Hare |
| Compton-Rickett, Sir J. | Jones, Leif (Appleby) | Pointer, J. |
| Condon, Thomas Joseph | Jones, William (Carnarvonshire) | Pollard, Dr. G. H. |
| Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow) | Jowett, F. W. | Price, Sir Robert J. (Norfolk, E.) |
| Corbett, C. H. (Sussex, E. Grinstead | Joyce, Michael | Raphael, Herbert H. |
| Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. | Kavanagh, Walter M. | Reddy, M. |
| Cotton, Sir H. J. S. | Keating, M. | Redmond, John E. (Waterford) |
| Crean, Eugene | Kekewich, Sir George | Rees, J. D. |
| Crooks, William | Laidlaw, Robert | Rendall, Athelstan |
| Cullinan, J. | Lamb, Edmund G. (Leominster) | Richards, Thomas (W. Monmouth) |
| Curran, Peter Francis | Lambert, George | Richards, T. F. (Wolverhampton, W.) |
| Davies, Ellis William (Eifion) | Lamont, Norman | Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln) |
| Davies, Timothy (Fulham) | Lardner, James Carrige Rushe | Roberts, G. H. (Norwich) |
| Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.) | Lever, A. Levy (Essex, Harwich) | Robertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradford) |
| Devlin, Joseph | Levy, Sir Maurice | Robinson, S. |
| Dickinson, W. H. (St. Pancras, N.) | Lewis, John Herbert | Roch, Walter F. (Pembroke) |
| Duckworth, Sir James | Lloyd-George, Rt. Hon. David | Roche, Augustine (Cork) |
| Duffy, William J. | Lundon, T. | Roe, Sir Thomas |
| Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness) | Luttrell, Hugh Fownes | Rose, Sir Charles Day |
| Dunn, A. Edward (Camborne) | Lyell, Charles Henry | Rowlands, J. |
| Elibank, Master of | Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester) | Russell, Rt. Hon. T. W. |
| Evans, Sir S. T. | Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk Burghs) | Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland) |
| Everett, R. Lacey | Maclean, Donald | Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel) |
| Scanlan, Thomas | Summerbell, T. | Waterlow, D. S. |
| Schwann, Sir C. E. (Manchester) | Taylor, John W. (Durham) | Watt, Henry A. |
| Scott, A. H. (Ashton-under-Lyne) | Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe) | White, J. Dundas (Dumbartonshire) |
| Seely, Colonel | Tennant, H. J. (Berwickshire) | White, Sir Luke (York, E.R.) |
| Shaw, Sir Charles E. (Stafford) | Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.) | White, Patrick (Meath, North) |
| Sheehan, Daniel Daniel | Thompson, J. W. H. (Somerset, E.) | Whittaker, Rt. Hon. Sir Thomas P. |
| Sheehy, David | Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton) | Williams, J. (Glamorgan) |
| Sherwell, Arthur James | Tomkinson, James | Williams, Sir Osmond (Merioneth) |
| Shipman, Dr. John G. | Toulmin, George | Wilson, Henry J. (York, W.R.) |
| Silcock, Thomas Ball | Ure, Rt. Hon. Alexander | Wilson, P. W. (St. Pancras, S.) |
| Sloan, Thomas Henry | Vivian, Henry | Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton) |
| Snowden, P. | Walters, John Tudor | Winfrey, R. |
| Soames, Arthur Wellesley | Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent) | Wood, T. M'Kinnon |
| Stanley, Hon. A. Lyulph (Cheshire) | Wardle, George J. | Young, Samuel |
| Stewart, Halley (Greenock) | Waring, Walter | |
| Strachey, Sir Edward | Warner, Thomas Courtenay T. | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr. |
| Strauss, E. A. (Abingdon) | Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney) | Joseph Pease and Captain Norton. |
| NOES. | ||
| Acland-Hood, Rt. Hon. Sir Alex. F. | Foster, P. S. | Morrison-Bell, Captain |
| Arkwright, John Stanhope | Gardner, Ernest | Newdegate, F. A. |
| Balcarres, Lord | Gibbs, G. A. (Bristol, West) | Nicholson, Wm. G. (Petersfield) |
| Balfour, Rt. Hon A. J. (City, Lond.) | Gooch, Henry Cubitt (Peckham) | Oddy, John James |
| Banner, John S. Harmood- | Goulding, Edward Alfred | Parkes, Ebenezer |
| Baring, Capt. Hon. G. (Winchester) | Gretton, John | Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington) |
| Beach, Hon. Michael Hugh Hicks | Guinness, Hon. R. (Haggerston) | Peel, Hon. W. R. W. |
| Beckett, Hon. Gervase | Hamilton, Marquess of | Percy, Earl |
| Bowles, G. Stewart | Hardy, Laurence (Kent, Ashford) | Powell, Sir Francis Sharp |
| Bridgeman, W. Clive | Harris, Frederick Leverton | Pretyman, E. G. |
| Brotherton, Edward Allen | Harrison-Broadley, H. B. | Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel |
| Burdett-Coutts, W. | Hay, Hon. Claude George | Remnant, James Farquharson |
| Carlile, E. Hildred | Hermon-Hodge, Sir Robert | Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall) |
| Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward H. | Hill, Sir Clement | Ronaldshay, Earl of |
| Cave, George | Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield) | Rutherford, John (Lancashire) |
| Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) | Hunt, Rowland | Sheffield, Sir Berkeley George D. |
| Cecil, Lord R. (Marylebone, E.) | Joynson-Hicks, William | Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, E.) |
| Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J. A. (Worc'r.) | Kennaway, Rt. Hon. Sir John H. | Smith, F. E. (Liverpool, Walton) |
| Clive, Percy Archer | Kimber, Sir Henry | Stanier, Beville |
| Clyde, J. Avon | King, Sir Henry Seymour (Hull) | Starkey, John R. |
| Coates, Major E. F. (Lewisham) | Lambton, Hon. Frederick William | Staveley-Hill, Henry (Staffordshire) |
| Cochrane, Hon. Thomas H. A. E. | Lane-Fox, G. R. | Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester) |
| Craig, Captain James (Down, E.) | Lee, Arthur H. (Hants, Fareham) | Thornton, Percy M. |
| Dairymple, Viscount | Lockwood, Rt. Hon. Lt.-Col. A. R. | Valentia, Viscount |
| Dickson, Rt. Hon. C. Scott- | Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham) | Walker, Col. W. H. (Lancashire) |
| Doughty, Sir George | Long, Rt. Hon. Walter (Dublin, S.) | Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid) |
| Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- | Lonsdale, John Brownlee | Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E.R.) |
| Du Cros, Arthur | Lowe, Sir Francis William | Younger, George |
| Duncan, Robert (Lanark, Govan) | Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred | |
| Faber, George Denison (York) | MacCaw, Wm. J. MacGeagh | |
| Fell, Arthur | Magnus, Sir Philip | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Sir |
| Fletcher, J. S. | Mildmay, Francis Bingham | H. Craik and Mr. Mitchell-Thomson. |
| Forster, Henry William | Morpeth, Viscount |