HC Deb 29 October 1909 vol 12 cc1379-405

Annual value of licensed premises—

Duty.
£ s. d.
Not exceeding £20 2 10 0
Exceeding £20 but not exceeding £30 3 0 0
Exceeding £30 but not exceeding £50 3 10 0
Exceeding £50 but not exceeding £75 4 0 0
Exceeding £75 but not exceeding £100 4 10 0
Exceeding £100 but not exceeding £250 5 0 0
Exceeding £250 but not exceeding £500 7 0 0
Exceeding £500 10 0 0

Provisions Applicable, to Retailers' Licence.

GENERAL.

1. A retailer's licence authorises sale at any one time to one person of liquor in the following quantities, namely:—

  1. (a) in the case of spirits, wine, or sweets, in any quantity not exceeding two gallons or not exceeding one dozen reputed quart bottles; and
  2. (b) in the case of beer or cider, in any quantity not exceeding four and a half gallons or not exceeding two dozen reputed quart bottles;
but not in any larger quantities.

2. A retailer's oil-licence shall not be granted to the holder of a retailer's on-licence if the off-licence authorises the sale of any liquor which the holder of the on-licence is not authorised to sell by retail under his on-licence, and any retailer's off-licence granted in contravention of this provision shall be vod.

3. A person holding the licence to be taken out by a retailer of beer may sell by retail cider as well as beer without taking out any further retailer's licence.

4. A person holding the licence to be taken out by a retailer of wine may sell by retail sweets as well as wine without taking out any further retailer's licence.

Provisions Applicable to Retailers' On-Licences.

1. A retailer's on-licence authorises sale by retail of the liquor to which the licence extends for consumption either on or off the premises.

2. A person holding the on-licence to be taken out by a retailer of spirits may sell by retail beer, cider, wine, and sweets, as well as spirits, without taking out any further retailer's licence.

Where it is shown to the satisfaction of the Commissioners that the annual value of the premises exceeds five hundred pounds, a retailer's on-licence may be granted at the option of the licence holder on payment of an amount equal to one-third of the annual compensation value as certified for the purposes of this Act, and where that amount has not been certified for the purpose of the register to be prepared under this Act, the licence holder may require that amount to be so certified:

Provided that—

  1. (a) the duty payable in pursuance of this provision shall not be less than two hundred and fifty pounds; and
  2. (b) where the annual compensation value has not been certified, the licence shall be granted on a provisional payment of the minimum duty payable under this provision, or of one-fifth of the full duty, whichever is the higher, and, upon the annual compensation value being certified, the duty shall be adjusted by the return of any overpayment or by the recovery, as a debt to His Majesty, of any sum by which the amount paid falls short of the amount which is found to be payable.

This provision shall apply to premises, whatever their annual value, if they are structurally adapted for use as an hotel and are bonâ fide so used, and it is shown to the Commissioners that it is impracticable to obtain a reduction of duty in respect of the premises under the provisions of this Act enabling such a reduction to be obtained for hotels in certain cases, owing to the fact that visitors resort to the place where the premises are situated only during certain seasons of the year.

In such a case, the minimum amount of duty payable shall be fifty pounds instead of two hundred and fifty pounds.

4. The maximum amount of duty payable in respect of a retailer's on-licence granted to the proprietor or occupier of premises adapted to be and bonâ fide used only for any of the following purposes, namely, for judicial or public administrative purposes or as a theatre or place of public or private entertainment, or as public gardens, picture galleries, or exhibitions, or for any similar purpose to which the holding of the licence is merely auxiliary, shall, in the case of a theatre the annual value of which does not exceed two thousand pounds, be twenty pounds, and in any other case fifty pounds, but it shall be a condition of any such licence that intoxicating liquor is not sold under the licence except while the premises are open and being used, and to persons bonâ fide using the premises, for the said purposes.

5. The maximum amount of duty payable in respect of a retailer's on-licence granted to the proprietor or occupier of premises adapted to be and bonâ fide used as refreshment rooms at a railway station shall be fifty pounds.

6. Where any premises include a music hall or other similiar place of public entertainment (hereinafter referred to as a place of entertainment), a retailer's on-licence may be granted, at the option of the licence holder, on payment of a duty of fifty pounds, together with such sum as would be payable as duty under this Act on the part of the premises not used as the place of the entertainment if that part were a separate set of premises, but it shall be a condition of any such licence that intoxicating liquor is not sold under the licence in the place of entertainment except whilst that place is open and being used, and to persons bonâ fide using that place, as a place of entertainment.

Provisions Applicable to Retailers' Off-Licences.

1. A retailer's off-licence authorises the sale by retail of the liquor to which the licence extends for consumption off the premises only.

2. A person holding the off-licence to be taken out by a retailer of spirits may not sell spirits in open vessels, or in England in any quantity less than one reputed quart bottle.

3. A person holding the off-licence to be taken out by a retailer of wine may not sell wine in open vessels or in England or Ireland in any quantity less than one reputed pint bottle.

D.—PASSENGER VESSEL LICENCES.
1. Licence to be taken out annually in respect of a passenger vessel by the master or other person belonging to the vessel nominated by the owner of the vessel— Corresponding existing licence.
Duty of £10. —
2. Licence to be taken out in respect of a passenger vessel by the master or other person belonging to the vessel nominated by the owner of the vessel, and to be in force for one day only— Licence on which duty is payable under 43 &44 Vict. c. 20, s. 45
Duty of £2.

Provisions Applicable to Passenger Vessel Licences.

1. A passenger vessel licence granted in respect of any vessel authorises the sale by retail while the vessel is engaged in carrying passengers of any intoxicating liquor on the vessel to passengers for consumtion on the vessel.

2. A passenger vessel licence authorises the sale of tobacco as well as the sale of intoxicating liquor.

3. In the event of any person to whom a passenger vessel's licence has been granted ceasing to be master of the vessel or to belong to the vessel, the licence may transferred to any person who is for the time being master of the vessel or is for the time being a person belonging to the vessel and nominated by the owner of the vessel for the purpose.

4. In the event of the transfer of the vessel to some other owner, the licence granted under this Section shall cease to have effect as respects that vessel, but may, in that event and in the event of the loss of the vessel, be transferred, on the application of the owner of the vessel, to the master of some other vessel belonging to him or to some person belonging to such other vessel and nominated by the owner for the purpose.

5. For the purpose of giving jurisdiction, any sale of liquor on a passenger vessel shall be deemed to have taken place either where it has actually taken place or in any place in which the vessel may be found.

E.—RAILWAY RESTAURANT CAR LICENCES.

Licence to be taken out annually in respect of a railway restaurant car by the railway company or other person owning the car—Duty of £1.

Provisions Applicable to Railway Restaurant Car Licences.

1. A licence for a railway restaurant car may be granted without the production of a justice's licence or certificate.

2. A railway restaurant car licence granted in respect of a car in which passengers can be supplied with meals authorises the sale by retail to passengers on the car of any intoxicating liquor for consumption on the car.

F.—OCCASIONAL LICENCES.

Occasional licences granted under Section thirteen of the Revenue Act, 1862 (25 and 26 Vict. c. 22), Section twenty of the Revenue Act, 1863 (26 and 27 Vict. c. 33), and Section five of the Revenue Act, 1864 (27 and 28 Vict. c. 18).

Duties:—

  1. (a) Sale of any intoxicating liquor per day, 10s.
  2. (b) Sale of beer or wine only—per day, 5s.

Provisions Applicable to Occasional Licences.

An occasional licence may be granted under Section five of the Revenue Act, 1864, for the sale of beer only in Scotland and Ireland as well as in England, and for the sale of wine only in Scotland as well as in England and Ireland; and any provisions relating to occasional licences shall apply accordingly.

Mr. GEORGE YOUNGER moved (in A.—Manufacturers' Licences—Spirits) to leave out the words: "Duty specified in Scale 1," and to insert instead thereof "£10."

This Amendment is moved in order to take a Division as a protest against the first part of the Schedule. I do not intend to make a speech. So far as my hon. Friends are concerned, the Division will be accepted as settling this particular question.

Mr. G. D. FABER seconded the Amendment.

Question put, "That the words 'Duty specified in Scale 1,' stand part of the Schedule."

The House divided: Ayes, 153; Noes, 60.

Division No. 866.] AYES. [3.35 p.m.
Acland, Francis Dyke Brooke, Stopford Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow)
Allen, Charles P. (Stroud) Brunner, J. F. L. (Lancs., Leigh) Corbett, C. H. (Sussex, E. Grinstead)
Balfour, Robert (Lanark) Brunner, Rt. Hon. Sir J. T. (Cheshire) Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.
Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight) Bryce, J. Annan Cotton, Sir H. J. S.
Barker, Sir John Burns, Rt. Hon. John Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth)
Barnes, G. N. Byles, William Pollard Crosfield, A. H.
Berridge, T. H. D. Carr-Gomm, H. W. Cross, Alexander
Bethell, Sir J. H. (Essex, Romford) Channing, Sir Francis Allston Davies, M. Vaughan- (Cardigan)
Bethell, T. R. (Essex, Maldon) Cheetham, John Frederick Dickinson, W. H. (St. Pancras, N.)
Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine Clough, William Dunne, Major E. Martin (Walsall)
Bowerman, C. W. Cobbold, Felix Thornley Essex, R. W.
Branch, James Collins, Stephen (Lambeth) Esslemont, George Birnie
Brigg, John Compton-Rickett, Sir J. Evans, Sir S. T.
Everett, R. Lacey Lloyd-George, Rt. Hon. David Roe, Sir Thomes
Falconer, J. Lupton, Arnold Rogers, F. E. Newman
Ferens, T. R. Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk Burghs) Rutherford, V. H. (Brentford)
Fiennes, Hon. Eustace Mackarness, Frederic C. Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland)
Foster, Rt. Hon. Sir Walter Maclean, Donald Schwann, Sir C. E. (Manchester)
Gibb, James (Harrow) Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J. Scott, A. H. (Ashton-under-Lyne)
Glendinning, R. G. M'Callum, John M. Seely, Colonel
Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford McKenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald Shackleton, David James
Gooch, George Peabody (Bath) M'Laren, Sir C. B. (Leicester) Sherwell, Arthur James
Greenwood, G. (Peterborough) M'Laren, H. D. (Stafford, W.) Shipman, Dr. John G.
Greenwood, Hamar (York) M'Micking, Major G. Silcock, Thomas Ball
Haldane, Rt. Hon. Richard B. Mallet, Charles E. Sloan, Thomas Henry
Harcourt, Rt. Hon. L. (Rossendale) Marks, G. Croydon (Launceston) Soames, Arthur Wellesley
Harmsworth, Cecil B. (Worcester) Marnham, F. J. Steadman, W. C.
Harmsworth, R. L. (Caithness-shire) Massie, J. Stewart, Halley (Greenock)
Hedges, A. Paget Micklem, Nathaniel Stewart-Smith, D. (Kendal)
Helme, Norval Watson Molteno, Percy Alport Sutherland, J. E.
Hemmerde, Edward George Mond, A. Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)
Henderson, Arthur (Durham) Money, L. G. Chiozza Thorne, William (West Ham)
Henderson, J. McD. (Aberdeen, W.) Morgan, G. Hay (Cornwall) Toulmin, George
Herbert, T. Arnold (Wycombe) Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen) Verney, F. W.
Higham, John Sharp Morrell, Philip Vivian, Henry
Hobart, Sir Robert Morton, Alpheus Cleophas Wadsworth, J.
Hobhouse, Rt. Hon. Charles E. H. Murray, James (Aberdeen, E.) Walker, H. De R. (Leicester)
Hodge, John Myer, Horatio Walsh, Stephen
Horniman, Emslie John Napier, T. B. Ward, W. Dudley (Southampton)
Howard, Hon. Geoffrey Norman, Sir Henry Waring, Walter
Hudson, Walter Nussey, Sir Willans Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney)
Idris, T. H. W. Nuttall, Harry Waterlow, D. S.
Illingworth, Percy H. Parker, James (Halifax) White, Sir Luke (York, E. R.)
Johnson, John (Gateshead) Pickersgill, Edward Hare Whitley, John Henry (Halifax)
Jones, Sir D. Brynmor (Swansea) Pensonby, Arthur A. W. H. Williams, W. Llewelyn (Carmarthen)
Jones, Leif (Appleby) Radford, G. H. Wilson, Hon. G. G. (Hull, W.)
Jones, William (Carnarvonshire) Raphael, Herbert H. Wilson, P. W. (St. Pancras, S.)
King, Alfred John (Knutsford) Rea, Rt. Hon. Russell (Gloucester) Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)
Laidlaw, Robert Rees, J. D. Wood, T. M'Kinnon
Lamont, Norman Richards, T. F. (Wolverhampton, W.)
Leese, Sir Joseph F. (Accrington) Robinson, S. TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr. Joseph Pease and Captain Norton.
Lehmann, R. C. Robson, Sir William Snowdon
NOES.
Abraham, W. (Cork, N. E.) Gretton, John O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)
Barrie, H. T. (Londonderry, N.) Guinness, Hon. R. (Haggerston) O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)
Bellairs, Carlyon Gwynn, Stephen Lucius O'Malley, William
Bignold, Sir Arthur Hamilton, Marquess of Percy, Earl
Boland, John Heaton, John Henniker Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel
Bowles, G. Stewart Hermon-Hodge, Sir Robert Remnant, James Farquharson
Butcher, Samuel Henry Hill, Sir Clement Renwick, George
Carlile, E. Hildred Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield) Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert
Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) Hunt, Rowland Stanley, Hon. Arthur (Ormskirk)
Cecil, Lord R. (Marylebone, E.) Keating, M. Starkey, John R.
Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J. A. (Worc'r.) Kerry, Earl of Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)
Cochrane, Hon. Thomas H. A. E. Kimber, Sir Henry Thornton, Percy M.
Courthope, G. Loyd Lambton, Hon. Frederick William Tuke, Sir John Batty
Craik, Sir Henry Lockwood, Rt. Hon. Lt.-Col. A. R. Walker, Col. W. H. (Lancashire)
Fell, Arthur Long, Rt. Hon. Walter (Dublin, S.) Walrond, Hon. Lionel
Fletcher, J. S. Lonsdale, John Brownlee Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid)
Forster, Henry William Lowe, Sir Francis William Willoughby de Eresby, Lord
Gardner, Ernest M'Arthur, Charles Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm
Gibbs, G. A. (Bristol, West) Mason, James F. (Windsor)
Ginnell, L. Mooney, J. J. TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr. Younger and Mr. G. D. Faber.
Gooch, Henry Cubitt (Peckham) Nicholson, Wm. G. (Petersfield)

Mr. YOUNGER had on the Paper an Amendment (in A.—Manufacturers' Licences—Beer), to leave out "Duty specified in Scale 2," and to insert instead thereof "£1."

A number of similar Amendments stood upon the Paper.

Mr. SPEAKER

The barrelage Amendments are out of order, as they would add to the charge on the Exchequer.

Drafting Amendment made.

Mr. GRETTON moved (in B.—Wholesale Dealers' Licences—Beer), to leave out "£10 10s," and to insert instead thereof "£5 5s."

This is a very important matter—to reduce the charge on wholesale beer dealers' licences. The subject has already been debated, and I do not propose to add to the arguments already used.

Mr. YOUNGER

I second the Amendment.

Question put, "That '£10 10s.' stand part of the Schedule."

The House divided: Ayes, 152; Noes, 59.

Division No. 867.] AYES. [3.40 p.m.
Acland, Francis Dyke Harmsworth, R. L. (Caithness-sh.) Norman, Sir Henry
Allen, Charles P. (Stroud) Hedges, A. Paget Nussey, Sir Willans
Ashton, Thomas Gair Helme, Norval Watson Nuttall, Harry
Balfour, Robert (Lanark) Hemmerdie, Edward George Parker, James (Halifax)
Raring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight) Henderson, Arthur (Durham) Pease, Rt. Hon. J. A. (Saff, Wald.)
Barker, Sir John Henderson, J. McD. (Aberdeen, W.) Philipps, Owen C. (Pembroke)
Barnes, G. N. Herbert, T. Arnold (Wycombe) Pickersgill, Edward Hare
Benn, Sir J. Williams (Devonport) Higham, John Sharp Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H.
Berridge, T. H. D. Hobart, Sir Robert Raphael, Herbert H.
Bethell, Sir J. H. (Essex, Romford) Hobhouse, Rt. Hon. Charles E. H. Pea, Rt. Hon. Russell (Gloucester)
Bethell, T. R. (Essex, Maldon) Hodge, John Rees, J. D.
Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine Hooper, A. G. Richards, T. F. (Wolverhampton, W.)
Bowerman, C. W. Horniman, Emslie John Robinson, S.
Branch, James Howard, Hon. Geoffrey Robson, Sir William Snowdon
Brigg, John Hudson, Walter Roe, Sir Thomas
Brooke, Stopford Idris, T. H. W. Rogers, F. E. Newman
Brunner, J. F. L. (Lancs., Leigh) Illingworth, Percy H. Rutherford, V. H. (Brentford)
Brunner, Rt. Hon. Sir J. T. (Cheshire) Johnson, John (Gateshead) Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland)
Bryce, J. Annan Jones, Sir D. Brynmor (Swansea) Schwann, Sir C. E. (Manchester)
Burns, Rt. Hon. John Jones, Leif (Appleby) Seely, Colonel
Byles, William Pollard Jones, William (Carnarvonshire) Shackleton, David James
Carr-Gomm, H. W. King, Alfred John (Knutsford) Sherwell, Arthur James
Channing, Sir Francis Allston Laidlaw, Robert Shipman, Dr. John G.
Cheetham, John Frederick Lamont, Norman Silcock, Thomas Ball
Clough, William Leese, Sir Joseph F. (Accrington) Seames, Arthur Wellesley
Cobbold, Felix Thornley Lehmann, R. C. Steadman, W. C.
Collins, Stephen (Lambeth) Lloyd-George, Rt. Hon. David Stewart, Halley (Greenock)
Compton-Rickett, Sir J. Lupton, Arnold Stewart-Smith, D. (Kendal)
Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow) Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk Burghs) Sutherland, J. E.
Corbett, C. H. (Sussex, E. Grinstead) Mackarness, Frederic C. Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)
Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. Maclean, Donald Thorne, William (West Ham)
Cotton, Sir H. J. S. Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J. Toulmin, George
Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth) M'Callum, John M. Verney, F. W.
Crosfield, A. H. McKenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald Vivian, Henry
Cross, Alexander M'Laren, Sir C. B. (Leicester) Wadsworth, J.
Davies, M. Vaughan- (Cardigan) M'Laren, H. D. (Stafford, W.) Walker, H. De R. (Leicester)
Dickinson, W. H. (St. Pancras, N.) M'Micking, Major G. Walsh, Stephen
Dunne, Major E. Martin (Walsall) Mallet, Charles E. Ward, W. Dudley (Southampton)
Essex, R. W. Marks, G. Croydon (Launceston) Waring, Walter
Evans, Sir S. T. Marnham, F. J. Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney)
Everett, R. Lacey Massie, J. Waterlow, D. S.
Falconer, J. Micklem, Nathaniel White, Sir Luke (York, E. R.)
Ferens, T. R. Molteno, Percy Alport Wiles, Thomas
Foster, Rt. Hon. Sir Walter Mond, A. Williams, W. Llewelyn (Carmarthen)
Gibb, James (Harrow) Money, L. G. Chiozza Wilson, Hon. G. G. (Hull, W.)
Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford Morgan, G. Hay (Cornwall) Wilson, P. W. (St. Pancras, S.)
Gooch, George Peabody (Bath) Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen) Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)
Greenwood, G. (Peterborough) Morrell, Philip Wood, T. M'Kinnon
Greenwood, Hamar (York) Morton, Alpheus Cleophas
Haldane, Rt. Hon. Richard B. Murray, James (Aberdeen, E.) TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Captain
Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Lewis (Rossendale) Myer, Horatio Norton and Mr. Whitley.
Harmsworth, Cecil B. (Worcester) Napier, T. B.
NOES.
Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (City, Lond.) Guinness, Hon. R. (Haggerston) O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)
Barrie, H. T. (Londonderry, N.) Gwynn, Stephen Lucius Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington)
Bellairs, Carlyon Hamilton, Marquess of Percy, Earl
Bignold, Sir Arthur Heaton, John Henniker Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel
Boland, John Hermon-Hodge, Sir Robert Renwick, George
Bowles, G. Stewart Hill, Sir Clement Richards, Thomas (W. Monmouth)
Butcher, Samuel Henry Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield) Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert
Carlile, E. Hildred Hunt, Rowland Stanley, Hon. Arthur (Ormskirk)
Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) Kerry, Earl of Starkey, John R.
Cecil, Lord R. (Marylebone, E.) Kimber, Sir Henry Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)
Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J. A. (Worc'r.) Lambton, Hon. Frederick William Thornton, Percy M.
Cochrane, Hon. Thomas H. A. E. Lockwood, Rt. Hon. Lt.-Col. A. R. Tuke, Sir John Batty
Courthope, G. Lloyd Long, Rt. Hon. Walter (Dublin, S.) Walker, Col. W. H. (Lancashire)
Craik, Sir Henry Lonsdale, John Brownlee Walrond, Hon. Lionel
Faber, George Denison (York) Lowe, Sir Francis William Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid)
Fell, Arthur M'Arthur, Charles Willoughby de Eresby, Lord
Fletcher, J. S. Mason, James F. (Windsor) Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm
Forster, Henry William Mooney, J. J. Younger, George
Gardner, Ernest Morpeth, Viscount
Gibbs, G. A. (Bristol, West) Nicholson, Wm. G. (Petersfield) TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr. Gretton and Mr. Remnant.
Gooch, Henry Cubitt (Peckham) Nolan, Joseph

Amendment made: In Scale 2 (Provisions Applicable to Wholesale Dealers' Licences), paragraph 2, after the word "supplied" ["if the liquor is supplied"], to insert the words "to the purchaser."

Mr. JAMES HOPE (for Mr. Samuel Roberts) moved, in Scale 2 (Retailers' On-Licences), to leave out the word's, "A duty equal to half the annual value of the licensed premises," and to insert instead thereof, "Duty specified in Scale 3."

I desire, on behalf of my hon. Friend, to protest against the iniquitous proposals contained in these words. This is an example, if ever there was one, of giving a trade a bad name and then worrying it afterwards. The hon. Member for Huddersfield (Mr. Sherwell) tried to attenuate the injustice by pointing out that 84 per

cent. of the licence holders would not feel this very acutely. Even on his own figures that means that on 16 per cent. this duty will press with extraordinary severity, and 16 per cent. means 19,000 persons in the licensed trade upon whom this excessive burden will fall. As many as 19,000 persons therefore will pay a taxation paid by no other class of the community.

Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Schedule."

The House divided: Ayes, 164; Noes, 58.

Division No. 868.] AYES. [3.52 p.m.
Abraham, W. (Cork, N. E.) Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Lewis (Rossendale) O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)
Acland, Francis Dyke Harmsworth, Cecil B. (Worcester) O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)
Allen, Charles P. (Stroud) Harmsworth, R. L. (Caithness-shire) O'Malley, William
Ashton, Thomas Gair Hedges, A. Paget Parker, James (Halifax)
Balfour, Robert (Lanark) Helme, Norval Watson Pearson, W. H. M. (Suffolk, Eye)
Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight) Hemmerde, Edward George Pease, Rt. Hon. J. A. (Saff. Wald.)
Barker, Sir John Henderson, Arthur (Durham) Philipps, Owen C. (Pembroke)
Barnes, G. N. Herbert, T. Arnold (Wycombe) Pickersgill, Edward Hare
Benn, Sir J. Williams (Devenport) Higham, John Sharp Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H.
Benn, W. (Tower Hamlets, St. Geo.) Hobart, Sir Robert Radford, G. H.
Berridge, T. H. D. Hobhouse, Rt. Hon. Charles E. H. Raphael, Herbert H.
Bethell, Sir J. H. (Essex, Romford) Hodge, John Rea, Rt. Hon. Russell (Gloucester)
Bethell, T. R. (Essex, Maldon) Hooper, A. G. Rees, J. D.
Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine Horniman, Emslie John Richards, T. F. (Wolverhampton, W.)
Boland, John Howard, Hon. Geoffrey Robinson, S.
Bowerman, C. W. Hudson, Walter Robson, Sir William Snowdon
Branch, James Idris, T. H. W. Roe, Sir Thomas
Brigg, John Illingworth, Percy H. Rogers, F. E. Newman
Brooke, Stopford Johnson, John (Gateshead) Rutherford, V. H. (Brentford)
Brunner, J. F. L. (Lancs., Leigh) Jones, Sir D. Brynmor (Swansea) Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland)
Brunner, Rt. Hon. Sir J. T. (Cheshire) Jones, Leif (Appleby) Schwann, Sir C. E. (Manchester)
Bryce, J. Annan Jones, William (Carnarvonshire) Scott, A. H. (Ashton-under-Lyne)
Burns, Rt. Hon. John King, Alfred John (Knutsford) Seely, Colonel
Byles, William Pollard Laidlaw, Robert Shackleton, David James
Carr-Gomm, H. W. Lamont, Norman Sherwell, Arthur James
Channing, Sir Francis Allston Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, W.) Shipman, Dr. John G.
Cheetham, John Frederick Leese, Sir Joseph F. (Accrington) Silcock, Thomas Ball
Clough, William Lehmann, R. C. Sloan, Thomas Henry
Cobbold, Felix Thornley Lloyd-George, Rt. Hon. David Soames, Arthur Wellesley
Collins, Stephen (Lambeth) Lupton, Arnold Steadman, W. C.
Compton-Rickett, Sir J. Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk Burghs) Stewart, Halley (Greenock)
Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow) Mackarness, Frederic C. Stewart-Smith, D. (Kendal)
Corbett, C. H. (Sussex, E. Grinstead) Maclean, Donald Sutherland, J. E.
Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J. Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)
Cotton, Sir H. J. S. M'Callum, John M. Thorne, William (West Ham)
Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth) McKenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald Toulmin, George
Crosfield, A. H. M'Laren, Sir C. B. (Leicester) Verney, F. W.
Cross, Alexander M'Laren, H. D. (Stafford, W.) Vivian, Henry
Davies, M. Vaughan- (Cardigan) M'Micking, Major G. Wadsworth, J.
Dickinson, W. H. (St. Pancras, N.) Mallet, Chas, E. Walker, H. De R. (Leicester)
Dunne, Major E. Martin (Walsall) Marks, G. Croydon (Launceston) Walsh, Stephen
Essex, R. W. Marnham, F. J. Ward, W. Dudley (Southampton)
Esslemont, George Birnie Massie, J. Waring, Walter
Evans, Sir S. T. Micklem, Nathaniel Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney)
Falconer, J. Molteno, Percy Alport Waterlow, D. S.
Ferens, T. R. Mond, A. White, Sir Luke (York, E. R.)
Foster, Rt. Hon. Sir Walter Money, L. G. Chiozza Wiles, Thomas
Gibb, James (Harrow) Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen) Williams, W. Llewelyn (Carmarthen)
Glendinning, R. G. Morrell, Philip Wilson, Hon. G. G. (Hull, W.)
Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford Morton, Alpheus Cleophas Wilson, P. W. (St. Pancras, S.)
Gooch, George Peabody (Bath) Murray, James (Aberdeen, E.) Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)
Greenwood, G. (Peterborough) Myer, Horatio Wood, T. M'Kinnon
Greenwood, Hamar (York) Napier, T. B.
Griffith, Ellis J. Norman, Sir Henry TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Captain
Gwynn, Stephen Lucius Nussey, Sir Willans Norton and Mr. Whitley.
Haldane, Rt. Hon. Richard B. Nuttall, Harry
NOES.
Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (City, Lond.) Bignold, Sir Arthur Carlile, E. Hildred
Barrie, H. T. (Londonderry, N.) Bowles, G. Stewart Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)
Bellairs, Carlyon Butcher, Samuel Henry Cecil, Lord R. (Marylebone, E.)
Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J. A. (Worc'r.) Hunt, Rowland Renwick, George
Cochrane, Hon. Thomas H. A. E. Kerry, Earl of Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert
Courthope, G. Loyd Kimber, Sir Henry Stanley, Hon. Arthur (Ormskirk)
Craik, Sir Henry Lambton, Hon. Frederick William Starkey, John R.
Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- Lockwood, Rt. Hon. Lt.-Col. A. R. Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)
Faber, George Denison (York) Long, Rt. Hon. Walter (Dublin, S.) Thornton, Percy M.
Fletcher, J. S. Lonsdale, John Brownlee Tuke, Sir John Batty
Forster, Henry William Lowe, Sir Francis William Walker, Col. W. H. (Lancashire)
Gardner, Ernest M'Arthur, Charles Walrond, Hon. Lionel
Gibbs, G. A. (Bristol, West) Mason, James F. (Windsor) Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid.)
Gooch, Henry Cubitt (Peckham) Mooney, J. J. Willoughby de Eresby, Lord
Gretton, John Morpeth, Viscount Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm
Guinness, Hon. R. (Haggerston) Nicholson, Wm. G. (Petersfield) Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-
Hamilton, Marquess of Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington) Younger, George
Heaton, John Henniker Percy, Earl
Hermon-Hodge, Sir Robert Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr. James Hope and Mr. Fell.
Hills, J. W. Remnant, James Farquharson

4.0 P.M.

Mr. GRETTON moved, in Scale 2 (C.—Retailers' On-Licences)—to leave out in the second column, relating to spirits (Publican's Licence) the words, "subject to the minimum duty payable under Scale 3."

I do so because the Government have not been able to give any satisfactory explanation

of this proposal which will bring about a most glaring injustice.

Mr. CARLILE seconded the Amendment.

Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Schedule."

The House divided: Ayes. 168; Noes, 55.

Division No. 869.] AYES. [4.0 p.m.
Abraham, W. (Cork, N. E.) Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford M'Micking, Major G.
Allen, Charles P. (Stroud) Gooch, George Peabody (Bath) Mallet, Charles E.
Ashton, Thomas Gair Greenwood, G. (Peterborough) Marks, G. Croydon (Launceston)
Balfour, Robert (Lanark) Greenwood, Hamar (York) Marnham, F. J.
Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight) Griffith, Ellis J. Massie, J.
Barker, Sir John Gwynn, Stephen Lucius Micklem, Nathaniel
Barnes, G. N. Haldane, Rt. Hon. Richard B. Molteno, Percy Alport
Benn, Sir J. Williams (Devonport) Harcourt, Rt. Hon. L. (Rossendale) Mond, A.
Benn, W. (Tower Hamlets, St. Geo.) Harmsworth, Cecil B. (Worcester) Money, L. G. Chiozza
Bethell, Sir J. H. (Essex, Romford) Harmsworth, R. L. (Caithness-shire) Mooney, J. J.
Bethell, T. R. (Essex, Maldon) Hedges, A. Paget Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen)
Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine Helme, Norval Watson Morrell, Philip
Boland, John Hemmerde, Edward George Morton, Alpheus Cleophas
Bowerman, C. W. Henderson, Arthur (Durham) Murray, James (Aberdeen, E.)
Branch, James Henderson, J. McD. (Aberdeen, W.) Myer, Horatio
Brigg, John Herbert, T. Arnold (Wycombe) Napier, T. B.
Brooke, Stopford Higham, John Sharp Nolan, Joseph
Brunner, J. F. L. (Lancs., Leigh) Hobart, Sir Robert Norman, Sir Henry
Brurner, Rt. Hon. Sir J. T. (Cheshire) Hobhouse, Rt. Hon. Charles E. H. Nussey, Sir Wilians
Bryce, J. Annan Hodge, John Nuttall, Harry
Burns, Rt. Hon. John Hooper, A. G. O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)
Byles, William Pollard Horniman, Emslie John O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)
Carr-Gomm, H. W. Howard, Hon. Geoffrey O'Malley, William
Channing, Sir Francis Allston Hudson, Walter Parker, James (Halifax)
Cheetham, John Frederick Idris, T. H. W. Pearson, W. H. M. (Suffolk, Eye)
Clough, William Illingworth, Percy H. Pease, Rt. Hon. J. A. (Saff. Wald.)
Cobbold, Felix Thornley Jardine, Sir J. Philipps, Col. Ivor (Southampton)
Collins, Stephen (Lambeth) Johnson, John (Gateshead) Philipps, Owen C. (Pembroke)
Compton-Rickett, Sir J. Jones, Sir D. Brynmor (Swansea) Pickersgill, Edward Hare
Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow) Jones, Leif (Appleby) Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H.
Corbett, C. H. (Sussex, E. Grinstead) Jones, William (Carnarvonshire) Radford, G. H.
Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. King, Alfred John (Knutsford) Raphael, Herbert H.
Cotton, Sir H. J. S. Laidlaw, Robert Rea, Rt. Hon. Russell (Gloucester)
Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth) Lamont, Norman Rees, J. D.
Crosfield, A. H. Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, W.) Richards, T. F. (Wolverhampton, W.)
Cross, Alexander Leese, Sir Joseph F. (Accrington) Robinson, S.
Davies, M. Vaughan- (Cardigan) Lehmann, R. C. Robson, Sir William Snowdon
Dickinson, W. H. (St. Pancras, N.) Lloyd-George, Rt. Hon. David Roe, Sir Thomas
Dunne, Major E. Martin (Walsall) Lupton, Arnold Rogers, F. E. Newman
Essex, R. W. Lynch, H. B. Rutherford, V. H. (Brentford)
Esslemont, George Birnie Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk Burghs) Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland)
Evans, Sir S. T. Mackarness, Frederic C. Schwann, Sir C. E. (Manchester)
Everett, R. Lacey Maclean, Donald Scott, A. H. (Ashton-under-Lyne)
Falconer, J. Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J. Seely, Colonel
Ferens, T. R. M'Callum, John M. Shackleton, David James
Foster, Rt. Hon. Sir Walter McKenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald Sherwell, Arthur James
Gibb, James (Harrow) M'Laren, Sir C. B. (Leicester) Shipman, Dr. John G.
Glendinning, R. G. M'Laren, H. D. (Stafford, W.) Silcock, Thomas Ball
Sloan, Thomas Henry Verney, F. W. Wiles, Thomas
Soames, Arthur Wellesley Vivian, Henry Williams, W. Llewelyn (Carmarthen)
Steadman, W. C. Wadsworth, J. Wilson, Hon. G. G. (Hull, W.)
Stewart, Halley (Greenock) Walker, H. De R. (Leicester) Wilson, P. W. (St. Pancras, S.)
Stewart Smith, D. (Kendal) Walsh, Stephen Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)
Sutherland, J. E. Waring, Walter Wood, T. M'Kinnon
Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe) Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney)
Thorne, William (West Ham) Waterlow, D. S. TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Captain
Toulmin, George White, Sir Luke (York, E. R.) Norton and Mr. Whitley.
NOES.
Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (City, Lond.) Hamilton, Marquess of Renwick, George
Barrie, H. T. (Londonderry, N.) Heaton, John Henniker Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert
Bellairs, Carlyon Hermon-Hodge, Sir Robert Stanley, Hon. Arthur (Ormskirk)
Bignold, Sir Arthur Hill, Sir Clement Starkey, John R.
Bowles, G. Stewart Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield) Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)
Butcher, Samuel Henry Hunt, Rowland Talbot, Rt. Hon. J. G. (Oxford Univ.)
Carlile, E. Hildred Kerry, Earl of Thornton, Percy M.
Cecil, Evelyn (Aston-Manor) Kimber, Sir Henry Tuke, Sir John Batty
Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J. A. (Worc'r.) Lambton, Hon. Frederick William Walker, Col. W. H. (Lancashire)
Cochrane, Hon. Thomas H. A. E. Lockwood, Rt. Hon. Lt.-Col. A. R. Walrond, Hon. Lionel
Courthope, G. Loyd Long, Rt. Hon. Walter (Dublin, S.) Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid)
Crean, Eugene Lonsdale, John Brownlee Willoughby de Eresby, Lord
Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers Lowe, Sir Francis William Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm
Fell, Arthur M'Arthur, Charles Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-
Fletcher, J. S. Mason, James F. (Windsor) Younger, George
Forster, Henry William Morpeth, Viscount
Gardner, Ernest Nicholson, Wm. G. (Petersfield)
Gibbs, G. A. (Bristol, West) Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington) TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr. Gretton and Mr. G. D. Faber.
Gooch, Henry Cubitt (Peckham) Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel
Guinness, Hon. R. (Haggerston) Remnant, James Farquharson

Mr. G. A. GIBBS (for Mr. S. Roberts) moved, in Scale 2 (C.—Retailers' On-Licences), to leave out in the second column relating to beer (beerhouse licence), the words: "A duty equal to a third of the annual value of the licensed premises, subject to the minimum duty payable under Scale 3," and to insert instead

thereof the words "Duty specified in Scale 4."

Mr. RUPERT GUINNESS seconded the Amendment.

Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Schedule."

The House divided: Ayes, 170; Noes, 57.

Division No. 870.] AYES. [4.10 p.m.
Abraham, W. (Cork, N. E.) Cotton, Sir H. J. S. Hodge, John
Allen, Charles P. (Stroud) Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth) Holland, Sir William Henry
Ashton, Thomas Gair Crosfield, A. H. Hooper, A. G.
Balfour, Robert (Lanark) Cross, Alexander Horniman, Emslie John
Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight) Davies, M. Vaughan- (Cardigan) Howard, Hon. Geoffrey
Barker, Sir John Dickinson, W. H. (St. Pancras, N.) Hudson, Walter
Barnard, E. B. Dunne, Major E. Martin (Walsall) Illingworth, Percy H.
Barnes, G. N. Essex, R. W. Jardine, Sir J.
Beauchamp, E. Esslemont, George Birnie Johnson, John (Gateshead)
Benn, Sir J. Williams (Devonport) Evans, Sir S. T. Jones, Sir D. Brynmor (Swansea)
Benn, W. (Tower Hamlets, St. Geo.) Everett, R. Lacey Jones, Leif (Appleby)
Bethell, Sir J. H. (Essex, Romford) Falconer, J. Jones, William (Carnarvonshire)
Bethell, T. R. (Essex, Maldon) Ferens, T. R. King, Alfred John (Knutsford)
Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine Foster, Rt. Hon. Sir Walter Laidlaw, Robert
Boland, John Gibb, James (Harrow) Lamont, Norman
Bowerman, C. W. Glendinning, R. G. Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, W.)
Branch, James Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford Leese, Sir Joseph F. (Accrington)
Brigg, John Gooch, George Peabody (Bath) Lehmann, R. C.
Brooke, Stopford Greenwood, G. (Peterborough) Lloyd-George, Rt. Hon. David
Brunner, J. F. L. (Lancs., Leigh) Greenwood, Hamar (York) Lough, Rt. Hon. Thomas
Brunner, Rt. Hon. Sir J. T. (Cheshire) Griffith, Ellis J. Lupton, Arnold
Bryce, J. Annan Gwynn, Stephen Lucius Lynch, H. B.
Burns, Rt. Hon. John Harcourt, Rt. Hon. L. (Rossendale) Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk Burghs)
Byles, William Pollard Harmsworth, Cecil B. (Worcester) Mackarness, Frederick C.
Carr-Gomm, H. W. Harmsworth, R. L. (Caithness-shire) Maclean, Donald
Channing, Sir Francis Allston Hedges, A. Paget Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.
Cheetham, John Frederick Helme, Norval Watson M'Callum, John M.
Clough, William Hemmerde, Edward George McKenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald
Cobbold, Felix Thornley Henderson, Arthur (Durham) M'Laren, Sir C. B. (Leicester)
Collins, Stephen (Lambeth) Henderson, J. McD. (Aberdeen, W.) M'Laren, H. D. (Stafford, W.)
Compton-Rickett, Sir J. Herbert, T. Arnold (Wycombe) M'Micking, Major G.
Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow) Higham, John Sharp Mallet, Charles E.
Corbett, C. H. (Sussex, E. Grinstead) Hobart, Sir Robert Marks, G. Croydon (Launceston)
Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. Hobhouse, Rt. Hon. Charles E. H. Marnham, F. J.
Massie, J. Pickersgill, Edward Hare Stewart-Smith, D. (Kendal)
Micklem, Nathaniel Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H. Sutherland, J. E.
Molteno, Percy Alport Radford, G. H. Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)
Mond, A. Raphael, Herbert H. Thorne, William (West Ham)
Money, L. G. Chiozza Rea, Rt. Hon. Russell (Gloucester) Toulmin, George
Mooney, J. J. Rees, J. D. Verney, F. W.
Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen) Richards, T. F. (Wolverhampton, W.) Vivian, Henry
Morrell, Philip Robinson, S. Wadsworth, J.
Morton, Alpheus Cleophas Robson, Sir William Snowdon Walker, H. De R. (Leicester)
Murray, James (Aberdeen, E.) Roe, Sir Thomas Walsh, Stephen
Myer, Horatio Rogers, F. E. Newman Waring, Walter
Napier, T. B. Rutherford, V. H. (Brentford) Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney)
Norman, Sir Henry Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland) Waterlow, D. S.
Nussey, Sir Willans Schwann, Sir C. E. (Manchester) White, Sir Luke (York, E. R.)
Nuttall, Harry Scott, A. H. (Ashton-under-Lyne) Wiles, Thomas
O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) Seely, Colonel Williams, W. Llewelyn (Carmarthen)
O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.) Shackleton, David James Wilson, Hon. G. G. (Hull, W.)
O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.) Sherwell, Arthur James Wilson, P. W. (St. Pancras, S.)
O'Malley, William Shipman, Dr. John G. Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)
Parker, James (Halifax) Silcock, Thomas Ball Wood, T. M'Kinnon
Pearson, W. H. M. (Suffolk, Eye) Sloan, Thomas Henry
Pease, Rt. Hon. J. A. (Saff. Wald.) Soames, Arthur Wellesley TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Captain
Philipps, Col. Ivor (Southampton) Steadman, W. C. Norton and Mr. Whitley.
Philipps, Owen C. (Pembroke) Stewart, Halley (Greenock)
NOES.
Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (City, Lond.) Heaton, John Henniker Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel
Bellairs, Carlyon Hermon-Hodge, Sir Robert Remnant, James Farquharson
Bignold, Sir Arthur Hill, Sir Clement Renwick, George
Bowles, G. Stewart Hills, J. W. Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert
Butcher, Samuel Henry Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield) Stanley, Hon. Arthur (Ormskirk)
Carlile, E. Hildred Hunt, Rowland Starkey, John R.
Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) Kerry, Earl of Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)
Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J. A. (Worc'r) Kimber, Sir H. Talbot, Rt. Hon. J. G. (Oxford Univ.)
Cochrane, Hon. Thomas H. A. E. King, Sir Henry Seymour (Hull) Thornton, Percy M.
Courthope, G. Loyd Lambton, Hon. Frederick William Tuke, Sir John Batty
Craik, Sir Henry Lockwood, Rt. Hon. Lt.-Col. A. R. Walker, Colonel W. H. (Lancashire)
Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- Long, Rt. Hon. Walter (Dublin, S.) Walrond, Hon. Lionel
Faber, George Denison (York) Lonsdale, John Brownlee Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid.)
Fell, Arthur Lowe, Sir Francis William Willoughby de Eresby, Lord
Fletcher, J. S. M'Arthur, Charles Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm
Forster, Henry William Mason, James F. (Windsor) Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-
Gardner, Ernest Morpeth, Viscount Younger, George
Gooch, Henry Cubitt (Peckham) Nicholson, Wm. G. (Petersfield)
Gretton, John Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington) TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr. G. A. Gibbs and Mr. Rupert Guinness.
Hamilton, Marquess of Percy, Earl

Mr. G. A. GIBBS moved, in Scale 3, after "5,000 and not less than 10,000, £15, £10," to insert "10,000 and not less than 30,000, £17 10s., £11 10s."

I moved this Amendment in Committee, and I understood from the Chancellor of the Duchy that he was going to consider this question before the Report stage. I have another Amendment in the next line to leave out the figures "10,000" and to insert "30,000," so as to make the next step from 30,000 to 50,000 instead of 10,000 to 50,000. The proposal is made with a view of making the scale more gradual and fairer in every way.

Mr. JAMES HOPE seconded the Amendment.

The CHANCELLOR of the DUCHY of LANCASTER (Mr. Herbert Samuel)

The hon. Gentleman is quite under a misapprehension if he suggests that I held out any hope whatever that his Amendment would be accepted. On the contrary, I said it would cause anomaly in the scale and the introduction of a rise of £2 10s. would be quite inconsistent with the other portions of the scale.

Amendment negatived.

Mr. LUPTON moved, at the end of Scale 2, to add the words "and, in the case of the borough of Wenlock, the sanitary divisions shall be the area upon which the population shall be calculated upon which the minimum duty shall be based instead of the borough as a whole."

The borough of Wenlock is the largest in area in the United Kingdom. It is more than 20,000 acres, and the population is considerably less than one person per acre, and therefore there is very considerable reason for reducing the size of the borough for the purpose of the minimum scale.

Mr. ROWLAND HUNT

I beg to second the Amendment. The borough is 10 miles long by 4 broad, and it is mostly agricultural, and very sparsely populated. The whole population is only 15,000. As the Bill now stands it will be as if the licensed houses were situated in a town of 49,000 inhabitants. There are four sanitary divisions in the borough. The exceptional nature of the borough was recognised by an exception in the Education Act of 1870 and in the Local Government Act of 1888. I was given to understand that the Chancellor of the Exchequer has promised to look into the matter as the injustice of it, as it is now, cannot possibly be denied.

Mr. HERBERT SAMUEL

When the matter was discussed in Committee, I said at the time that as then advised I could not accept the Amendment, but that I would look into any additional facts or figures that any hon. Member might send me, and consider whether they would justify the wholly exceptional treatment for which this town asks. Some figures have been supplied to me, but in the opinion of the Government they quite fail to establish an exceptional case. Of course, every town which covers a considerable area, and there are many such, would wish to be assessed for the purpose of the minimum Licence Duty, as though its separate Divisions were separate towns. If we accepted the borough of Wenlock, immediately a claim would be raised on behalf of Merthyr Tydvil, which is eight miles long, and if that is accepted, the next place will ask to come in, and it would be found totally impossible to draw any line. The previous Acts to which the hon. Member referred have not dealt with analagous matters. The hon. Member said, although the population was 15,000, it would be dealt with as if it were 40,000. The population, being 15,000, comes in the part of the scale which covers all towns between 10,000 and 50,000. The difference it would make is not very considerable. In the case of beerhouses it would make £3 difference each and in the case of public-houses about £9 each. In the view of the Government there is no reason for this exception. The case of the pottery towns is quite different. There a differentiation in the finances is maintained for a period of 20 years. All through their finances—rates and debt—are treated separately. The difference which this would make to these places would be many thousands of pounds, and therefore we have inserted Amendments to the effect that as their accounts are treated separately for a period of 20 years so long should they be treated separately for the purpose of this scale. The same considerations do not apply in other cases.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr. YOUNGER moved, in Scale 7 (Wine Retailers' Off-Licences—Provisions applicable to retailers' licences), at the end of paragraph 1, to leave out the words "but not in any larger quantities."

I was not here myself at the time, but I understand that when this matter came before the Committee the right hon. Gentleman stated that he was not sure about the law. His impression was that while English licence holders could not sell larger quantities, the Scotch licence covered larger sales. In the north of Scotland in particular, where there is great competition between local traders, it would be rather hard upon them if they could not supply ordinary quantities of beer as in the past. If they could not do so, people would go to other establishments where they could get liquor and other supplies.

Mr. G. D. FABER

I beg to second the Amendment.

Mr. HERBERT SAMUEL

I do not recollect that I said anything about being in doubt as to the law when the Bill was in Committee. I have, however, made inquiries, and undoubtedly it is the intention of this Clause—it has always been the acknowledged intention of it—to restrict the Scotch grocer who does not take out a wholesale licence to retail trade. That has been the basis of all the negotiations which have taken place between the representatives of the Government and the representatives of the Scotch and Irish licensed grocers. One of the great virtues of this Schedule is that it does simplify the whole licensing system which has been entangled and complicated. One of the chief purposes is to draw a line between wholesale and retail licences, and to reduce to a minimum the overlapping which has hitherto prevailed. If these words were omitted from the Schedule, the whole of this part of the scheme would be spoiled. The Government cannot accept the Amendment.

Mr. YOUNGER

This is a very important alteration in the law which the licenced grocers feel very keenly.

Mr. HERBERT SAMUEL

The question of quantities has always been dealt with in Finance Bills.

Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Schedule."

The House divided: Ayes, 166; Noes, 53.

Division No. 871.] AYES. [4.30 p.m.
Allen, Charles P. (Stroud) Harmsworth, R. L. (Caithness-shire) O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)
Ashton, Thomas Gair Hedges, A. Paget O'Malley, William
Balfour, Robert (Lanark) Helme, Norval Watson Parker, James (Halifax)
Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight) Henderson, Arthur (Durham) Pearson, W. H. M. (Suffolk, Eye)
Barker, Sir John Henderson, J. McD. (Aberdeen, W.) Pease, Rt. Hon. J. A. (Saff. Wald.)
Barnard, E. B. Herbert, T. Arnold (Wycombe) Philipps, Col. Ivor (Southampton)
Barnes, G. N. Higham, John Sharp Philipps, Owen C. (Pembroke)
Beauchamp, E. Hobart, Sir Robert Pickersgill, Edward Hare
Benn, Sir J. Williams (Devonport) Hobhouse, Rt. Hon. Charles E. H. Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H.
Bethell, Sir J. H. (Essex, Romford) Hodge, John Radford, G. H.
Bethell, T. R. (Essex, Maldon) Holland, Sir William Henry Raphael, Herbert H.
Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine Horniman, Emslie John Rea, Rt. Hon. Russell (Gloucester)
Boland, John Howard, Hon. Geoffrey Rees, J. D.
Bowerman, C. W. Hudson, Walter Richards, T. F. (Wolverhampton, W.)
Branch, James Illingworth, Percy H. Robinson, S.
Brigg, John Isaacs, Rufus Daniel Robson, Sir William Snowdon
Brooke, Stopford Jardine, Sir J. Roe, Sir Thomas
Brunner, J. F. L. (Lancs., Leigh) Johnson, John (Gateshead) Rogers, F. E. Newman
Brunner, Rt. Hon. Sir J. T. (Cheshire) Jones, Sir D. Brynmor (Swansea) Rutherford, V. H. (Brentford)
Bryce, J. Annan Jones, Leif (Appleby) Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland)
Burns, Rt. Hon. John Jones, William (Carnarvonshire) Schwann, Sir C. E. (Manchester)
Byles, William Pollard King, Alfred John (Knutsford) Scott, A. H. (Ashton-under-Lyne)
Carr-Gomm, H. W. Laidlaw, Robert Seely, Colonel
Channing, Sir Francis Allston Lamont, Norman Shackleton, David James
Cheetham, John Frederick Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, W.) Sherwell, Arthur James
Clough, William Leese, Sir Joseph F. (Accrington) Shipman, Dr. John G.
Collins, Stephen (Lambeth) Lehmann, R. C. Silcock, Thomas Ball
Compton-Rickett, Sir J. Lloyd-George, Rt. Hon. David Sloan, Thomas Henry
Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow) Lupton, Arnold Soames, Arthur Wellesley
Corbett, C. H. (Sussex, E. Grinstead) Lynch, H. B. Steadman, W. C.
Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk Burghs) Stewart, Halley (Greenock)
Cory, Sir Clifford John Mackarness, Frederic C. Stewart-Smith, D. (Kendal)
Cotton, Sir H. J. S. Maclean, Donald Sutherland, J. E.
Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth) Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J. Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)
Crosfield, A. H. M'Callum, John M. Thorne, William (West Ham)
Cross, Alexander McKenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald Toulmin, George
Davies, M. Vaughan- (Cardigan) M'Laren, Sir C. B. (Leicester) Verney, F. W.
Dickinson, W. H. (St. Pancras, N.) M'Laren, H. D. (Stafford, W.) Vivian, Henry
Dobson, Thomas W. M'Micking, Major G. Wadsworth, J.
Dunne, Major E. Martin (Walsall) Mallet, Charles E. Walker, H. De R. (Leicester)
Elibank, Master of Marks, G. Croydon (Launceston) Walsh, Stephen
Essex, R. W. Marnham, F. J. Waring, Walter
Esslemont, George Birnie Massie, J. Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney)
Evans, Sir S. T. Micklem, Nathaniel Waterlow, D. S.
Everett, R. Lacey Molteno, Percy Alport White, Sir Luke (York, E. R.)
Falconer, J. Mond, A. Wiles, Thomas
Ferens, T. R. Money, L. G. Chiozza Williams, W. Llewelyn (Carmarthen)
Foster, Rt. Hon. Sir Walter Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen) Wills, Arthur Walters
Gibb, James (Harrow) Morrell, Philip Wilson, Hon. G. G. (Hull, W.)
Glendinning, R. G. Morton, Alpheus Cleophas Wilson, P. W. (St. Pancras, S.)
Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford Murray, James (Aberdeen, E.) Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)
Gooch, George Peabody (Bath) Myer, Horatio Wood, T. M'Kinnon
Greenwood, G. (Peterborough) Napier, T. B. Young, Samuel
Griffith, Ellis J. Norman, Sir Henry
Gwynn, Stephen Lucius Nussey, Sir Willans TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Captain
Harcourt, Rt. Hon. L. (Rossendale) Nuttall, Harry Norton and Mr. Whitley.
Harmsworth, Cecil B. (Worcester) O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)
NOES.
Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (City, Lond.) Hamilton, Marquess of Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel
Bellairs, Carlyon Heaton, John Henniker Remnant, James Farquharson
Bignold, Sir Arthur Hermon-Hodge, Sir Robert Renton, Leslie
Bowles, G. Stewart Hills, J. W. Renwick, George
Butcher, Samuel Henry Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield) Starkey, John R.
Carlile, E. Hildred Hunt, Rowland Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)
Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) Kerry, Earl of Talbot, Rt. Hon. J. G. (Oxford Univ.)
Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J. A. (Worc'r) Kimber, Sir Henry Thornton, Percy M.
Cochrane, Hon. Thomas H. A. E. King, Sir Henry Seymour (Hull) Tuke, Sir John Batty
Craik, Sir Henry Lockwood, Rt. Hon. Lt.-Col. A. R. Walker, Colonel W. H. (Lancashire)
Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- Long, Rt. Hon. Walter (Dublin, S.) Walrond, Hon. Lionel
Fell, Arthur Lonsdale, John Brownlee Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid)
Fletcher, J. S. Lowe, Sir Francis William Willoughby de Eresby, Lord
Forster, Henry William M'Arthur, Charles Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm
Gardner, Ernest Mason, James F. (Windsor) Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-
Gibbs, G. A. (Bristol, West) Morpeth, Viscount
Gooch, Henry Cubitt (Peckham) Nicholson, Wm. G. (Petersfield) TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr. Younger and Mr. G. D. Faber.
Gretton, John Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington)
Guinness, Hon. R. (Haggerston) Percy, Earl

Mr. BARNARD moved, in Scale 7 (Provisions Applicable to Retailers' On-Licences), paragraph 3, to leave out the words "where it is shown to the satisfaction of the Commissioners that the annual value of the premises exceeds five-hundred pounds."

I understand that paragraph 3 of this Schedule is intended to apply to the bigger houses on a certain method which will enable them to pay, in the first instance, a portion of the amount required from them, and which subsequently will enable them to adjust the figure when it is discovered under the proposed method of calculating the licence value. I hope the Government will allow this to apply to all licensed houses, because I think the smaller ones will suffer very materially during the first year unless that is done. If this adjustment is permitted to apply to the bigger houses, the injustice to the smaller ones will be much greater. Those who own the larger houses are in possession of a greater amount of capital than the people who have the smaller houses, who would be in a particularly bad position. I am not attacking any principle; I am simply asking that these small people should not be made to pay a larger sum during the first year, but if under this method of adjustment they are called upon to do so, I think there should be an understanding

that, when the adjustment is made, the money will be returned to them.

Amendment not seconded.

Mr. JOHN GRETTON (for Mr. Clavell Salter) moved, in Scale 7 (Provisions Applicable to Retailers' On-Licences), paragraph 3, to leave out "one-third" ["amount equal to one-third"], and to insert instead thereof "one-fourth."

The reason I move this is so that this may be made of some value as a concession. It has been shown over and over again that this concession is of no real value, and that in many cases it would result in a considerable loss. In some cases the option is very much higher than the amount proposed in the Bill. I move to reduce the amount from one-third to one-fourth, so that the Government may carry out what they expressed as their intention towards the large houses not only in London, but in the other parts of the country.

Colonel WALKER seconded the Amendment.

Mr. HERBERT SAMUEL

The Government could not possibly accept this Amendment. It would mean an enormous reduction of revenue. It would reduce the revenue from the houses which took this option by 25 per cent.

Question put, "That the words 'one-third' stand part of the Schedule."

The House divided: Ayes, 164; Noes, 50.

Division No. 872.] AYES. [4.45 p.m.
Allen, Charles P. (Stroud) Cory, Sir Clifford John Hobhouse, Rt. Hon. Charles E. H.
Balfour, Robert (Lanark) Cotton, Sir H. J. S. Hodge, John
Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight) Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth) Holland, Sir William Henry
Barker, Sir John Cross, Alexander Hooper, A. G.
Barnard, E. B. Davies, M. Vaughan- (Cardigan) Horniman, Emslie John
Barnes, G. N. Dickinson, W. H. (St. Pancras, N.) Howard, Hon. Geoffrey
Beauchamp, E. Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P. Hudson, Walter
Benn, Sir J. Williams (Devonport) Dobson, Thomas W. Illingworth, Percy H.
Benn, W. (Tower Hamlets, St. Geo.) Dunne, Major E. Martin (Walsall) Isaacs, Rufus Daniel
Bethell, Sir J. H. (Essex, Romford) Edwards, Sir Francis (Radnor) Jackson, R. S.
Bethell, T. R. (Essex, Maldon) Elibank, Master of Jardine, Sir J.
Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine Essex, R. W. Johnson, John (Gateshead)
Boland, John Esslemont, George Birnie Jones, Sir D. Brynmor (Swansea)
Bowerman, C. W. Evans, Sir S. T. Jones, Leif (Appleby)
Branch, James Everett, R. Lacey Jones, William (Carnarvonshire)
Brigg, John Falconer, J. King, Alfred John (Knutsford)
Brooke, Stopford Ferens, T. R. Laidlaw, Robert
Brunner, J. F. L. (Lancs., Leigh) Foster, Rt. Hon. Sir Walter Lament, Norman
Brunner, Rt. Hon. Sir J. T. (Cheshire) Gibb, James (Harrow) Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, W.)
Bryce, J. Annan Glendinning, R. G. Leese, Sir Joseph F. (Accrington)
Burns, Rt. Hon. John Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford Lehmann, R. C.
Byles, William Pollard Gooch, George Peabody (Bath) Lloyd-George, Rt. Hon. David
Carr-Gomm, H. W. Greenwood, G. (Peterborough) Lupton, Arnold
Channing, Sir Francis Allston Griffith, Ellis J. Lynch, H. B.
Cheetham John Frederick Gwynn, Stephen Lucius Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk Burghs)
Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston S. Harcourt, Rt. Hon. L. (Rossendale) Maclean, Donald
Clough, William Hardie, J. Keir (Merthyr Tydvil) Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.
Collins, Stephen (Lambeth) Harmsworth, Cecil B. (Worcester) McKenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald
Compton Rickett, Sir J. Harmsworth, R. L. (Caithness-sh.) M'Laren, Sir C. B. (Leicester)
Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow) Hedges, A. Paget M'Laren, H. B. (Stafford, W.)
Corbett, C. H. (Sussex, E. Grinstead) Helme, Norval Watson M'Micking, Major G.
Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. Higham, John Sharp Mallet, Charles E.
Marks, G. Croydon (Launceston) Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H. Stewart-Smith, D. (Kendal)
Marnham, F. J. Raphael, Herbert H. Sutherland, J. E.
Massie, J. Rea, Rt. Hon. Russell (Gloucester) Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)
Micklem, Nathaniel Rees, J. D. Thorne, William (West Ham)
Molteno, Percy Alport Richards, T. F. (Wolverhampton, W.) Toulmin, George
Mond, A. Robinson, S. Verney, F. W.
Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen) Robson, Sir William Snowdon Vivian, Henry
Morrell, Philip Roe, Sir Thomas Wadsworth, J.
Morton, Alpheus Cleophes Rogers, F. E. Newman Walker, H. De R. (Leicester)
Murray, James (Aberdeen, E.) Rutherford, V. H. (Brentwood) Walsh, Stephen
Myer, Horatio Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland) Waring, Walter
Napier, T. B. Schwann, Sir C. E. (Manchester) Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney)
Norman, Sir Henry Scott, A. H. (Ashton-under-Lyne) Waterlow, D. S.
Nussey, Sir Willans Sears, J. E. White, Sir Luke (York, E. R.)
Nuttall, Harry Seely, Colonel Williams, W. Llewelyn (Carmarthen)
O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) Shackleton, David James Wills, Arthur Walters
O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.) Shipman, Dr. John G. Wilson, Hon. G. G. (Hull, W.)
O'Malley, William Silcock, Thomas Ball Wilson, P. W. (St. Pancras, S.)
Parker, James (Halifax) Simon, John Allsebrook Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)
Pearson, W. H. M. (Suffolk, Eye) Sloan, Thomas Henry Wood, T. M'Kinnon
Pease, Rt. Hon. J. A. (Saff. Wald.) Soames, Arthur Wellesley
Philipps, Col. Ivor (Southampton) Steadman, W. C. TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Captain
Philipps, Owen C. (Pembroke) Stewart, Halley (Greenock) Norton and Mr. Whitley.
Pickersgill, Edward Hare
NOES.
Bellairs, Carlyon Hamilton, Marquess of Percy, Earl
Bignold, Sir Arthur Hermon-Hodge, Sir Robert Powell, Sir Francis Sharp
Butcher, Samuel Henry Hills, J. W. Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel
Carlile, E. Hildred Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield) Renton, Leslie
Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) Hunt, Rowland Renwick, George
Cochrane, Hon. Thomas H. A. E. Kerry, Earl of Starkey, John R.
Craik, Sir Henry Kimber, Sir H. Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)
Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- King, Sir Henry Seymour (Hull) Talbot, Rt. Hon. J. G. (Oxford Univ.)
Faber, George Denison (York) Lockwood, Rt. Hon. Lt.-Col. A. R. Tuke, Sir John Batty
Fell, Arthur Lonsdale, John Brownlee Walrond, Hon. Lionel
Fletcher, J. S. Lowe, Sir Francis William Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid)
Forster, Henry William M'Arthur, Charles Willoughby de Eresby, Lord
Gardner, Ernest Magnus, Sir Philip Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm
Gibbs, G. A. (Bristol, West) Mason, James F. (Windsor) Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-
Gooch, Henry Cubitt (Peckham) Morpeth, Viscount Younger, George
Guinness, Hon. R. (Haggerston) Nicholson, Wm. G. (Petersfield) TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr. Gretton and Colonel Walker.
Guinness, Hon. W. E. (B. S. Edmunds) Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington)

Drafting Amendments made.

Mr. GRETTON moved, in Scale 7 (Provisions Applicable to Retailers' On-Licences), paragraph (a), after the word "pounds" ["less than two hundred and fifty pounds"], to insert the words, "in the case of fully-licensed premises, or in the case of a beerhouse one hundred and sixty-six pounds thirteen shillings and fourpence."

I understand the Government are prepared to accept this Amendment.

Mr. HERBERT SAMUEL

I would like to explain that we accept this Amendment because it is right in principle, and some day may be useful. We are not aware of beerhouses which are of £500 value. There may be one or two.

Amendment made.

Mr. GRETTON moved, in the same scale (Provisions Applicable to Retailers' On-Licences), paragraph 3, to leave out the word "only" ["are situated only during certain seasons"], and to insert instead thereof the word "mainly."

I propose this alteration, which is only a drafting Amendment, because I am advised that if the word "only" stands part of the Bill the result will be that the hotel will have to close absolutely after the season in order to maintain the advantages of this reduction. If the word "mainly" is inserted you could keep premises open for occasional business. I do not think it is the intention of the Government to penalise hotels for keeping open for occasional visitors, who are certainly not any great source of profit.

Colonel WALKER

I beg to second the Amendment.

Mr. HERBERT SAMUEL

The hon. Member describes this as a drafting Amendment, but it is one which if accepted would cost the Revenue thousands of pounds. If this Amendment were made the result would be that every hotel in every seaside resort would say, "We have more visitors at one period of the year than others, and our liquor sales are larger at one time than at another." They would at once apply for the benefit of this exemption, and the effect would be that a great number of houses which would not have one-third liquor receipts if they traded as genuine hotels, would receive the benefit of an exemption not intended to meet their case.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr. HERBERT SAMUEL moved in Scale 7 (Provisions Applicable to Retailers' On-Licences) paragraph 4, to leave out the words "in any other case fifty pounds," and to insert instead thereof the the words "thirty pounds in the case of premises of an annual value not exceeding one hundred pounds, and in any other such case fifty pounds."

There has been a suggestion made to the Government within the last few days that the minimum duty to be imposed upon these seasonal hotels of £50 is, in cases of the smallest of them, more than they could pay. These representations have been carefully considered, supported as they have been by details, and the consequence is that the Government, being anxious to avoid cases of hardship, propose this Amendment.

Amendment agreed to.

Drafting Amendment also made.