§ Ordered, That all Members who are returned for two or more places in any part of the United Kingdom do make their election for which of the places they will serve, within one week after it shall appear that there is no question upon the return for that place; and if anything shall come in question touching the Return or Election of any Member, he is to withdraw during the time the matter is in debate; and that all Members returned upon double Returns do withdraw till their Returns are determined.
§ Resolved, That no Peer of the Realm, except such Peers of Ireland as shall for the time being be actually elected, and shall not have declined to serve, for any county, city, or borough of Great Britain, hath any right to give his vote in the election of any Member to serve in Parliament.
§ Motion made, and Question proposed— "That it is a high infringement of the liberties and privileges of the Commons of the United Kingdom for any Lord of Parliament, or other Peer or Prelate, not being a Peer of Ireland at the time elected, and not having declined to serve for any county, city, or borough of Great Britain, to concern himself in the election of Members to serve for the Commons in Parliament, except only any Peer of Ireland, at such elections in Great Britain respectively, where such Peer shall appear as a candidate, or by himself, or any others, be proposed to be elected; or for any Lord-Lieutenant or Governor of any county to avail himself of any authority derived from his Commission, to influence the election of any Member to serve for the Commons in Parliament."
§ Mr. SWIFT MacNEILLI oppose the renewal of this Sessional Order on the grounds that since its first institution it has been the merest dead letter, that it has been repeatedly abrogated and violated, and that no steps of an earnest character have ever been taken to enforce it. This is not a party question, Members on both sides—Mr. James Lowther on the one, and Sir Wilfrid Lawson, Mr. Labouchere, and Mr. Bradlaugh on the other—having repeatedly moved the rejection of this Sessional Order. Such a motion was on one occasion made by no less an authority than Lord Randolph Churchill. I have not intervened in a debate on this subject before, and I would not now, but for the fact that circumstances have widely changed We have heard, and we believe, 4 that the question of the House of Lords is now the predominant issue before the country. That issue has been joined, and I base my opposition to this Sessional Order on the great authority of Mr. Gladstone, who, on August 16th, 1886, when the continuance of the Order was under discussion, said:—
Looking to the fact that the hon. Gentleman who seconded the motion (Sir Wilfrid Lawson) distinctly admitted that he did so because he was prepared to support the abolition of the House of Lords, it appears to me that the abolition of the Sessional Order and the broad adoption of the principle that Peers may be equally concerned in the popular election of Commoners, is in the nature of laying the first parallel in the siege which is at some time or in some circumstances to be laid against the House of Lords and its present exclusive privileges.The siege is now begun. Surely I am justified in asking the House to lay the first parallel, and to accept Mr. Gladstone's advice. He said, further:—#That is a question on which at the present moment I do not give any opinion beyond this: Anything that is to be done in the matter ought to be done by us with our eyes open, and with a view of the purpose to which it is really intended to be directed, and not as a matter of mere form, as if it were of little importance.That is what I wish the House to do now—with its eyes open, to adopt Mr. Gladstone's tactic, and, now that the question has become the predominant issue, abolish this Resolution. Moreover, on the occasion to which I have referred, amongst those who voted against the renewal of this Sessional Order I find the name "H. H. Asquith." It was the first division in which the present Prime Minister took part, and, as he has never withdrawn from a position he has once seriously adopted, I would ask him—as this is not a matter of high politics—if he would refrain from putting on the Government tellers, for it is a question which should be left to the discretion of the House. He need not be in any difficulty in this connection so far as the Leader of the Opposition is concerned, for the right hon. Gentleman has voted both for and against the motion. I have fortified myself by reading the advice given by him when out of office in 1894, Lord Rosebery in that year having made an electioneering speech at Edinburgh. The question of Lord Rosebery's interference was raised in the discussion which took place on the motion of Lord Randolph Churchill. The Leader of the Opposition, of course, backed up Lord Randolph Churchill on that occasion. The right hon. Gentleman said that the action of Lord Rosebery "has now convinced us 5 finally that this Sessional Order which we pass every time we assemble must be acknowledged to be a farce." That was the manner of the Leader of the Opposition when in Opposition, but when we come to one short year afterwards we find out that in 1895 he was a great stickler for the rigidness of the rule. He said the House could not censure the noble lord, and, if it did, he would probably treat the censure with ridicule. We are asked to stultify ourselves every year by passing this Sessional Order while taking no steps to enforce it. Is that a course which anyone would care to adopt now when the siege of the House of Lords has begun? Let them come out into the open and show themselves, and vote if they chose like men. This rule is very curious and interesting. It is a rule which has always been unsuccessful. It had its foundation when it was passed by the Long Parliament in 1640. The Long Parliament saw that the rule did not work, and then they advanced the proposal to abolish the House of Lords for the time. Then the rule was in abeyance until the Act of Settlement. It has been consistently violated from that time to this. I have not the precedents with me, but anyone interested in the subject will find that there was an interesting debate on the subject in 1847. Sir John Jervis, the then Attorney-General, said he had looked up all the precedents, and stated that in no case except one did the House ever act. In that case a noble duke had sent letters and employed his agent in regard to votes in an election, and his conduct was brought before Parliament as a breach of privilege. A Committee was appointed to investigate the case. The Committee sat, but the House of Commons declined to take any action. In the same year another noble lord committed a similar offence, but no action was taken. In another case Sir Frederick Thesiger disowned that the Duke of Marlborough had exercised influence at an election. Sir Frederick was at that time the representative of a pocket borough, and he was not anxious to bring the Duke of Marl- 6 borough under the lash. In 1886 some twenty Peers were said to have interfered in elections. Of all the offenders in this way, the late Lord Salisbury was one of the worst. The conduct of the Duke of Marlborough in interfering in elections was brought four times before this House. If this Sessional Order is to be real and not merely passed to be allowed to remain a dead letter, this House should take action when a Peer interferes in an election; but if the Order is not to be enforced it should not be passed. I beg to move that the Order be not agreed to.
§ The PRIME MINISTER (Mr. Asquith)I think this Sessional Order has now been discussed twenty times year after year. I cannot agree that it raises the large and grave issue which my hon. friend suggests. I can speak with perfect impartiality on the matter because, like the Leader of the Opposition, I have voted both ways in the course of my not very long Parliamentary career. I think my hon. friend is quite right in saying that the first vote I gave in this House was in opposition to this Order, but since then I have taken a different view. I think the arguments are evenly balanced one way and the other. It may be said of this Sessional Order, as has been said by my hon. friend, that it is nugatory and academic, that it is without sanction, that it is disregarded from time to time, and that nobody is made amenable. On the other hand, it may be said in its favour that it is the assertion of a principle coming down to us from the time of the Long Parliament, that it has been passed Session after Session now for some 250 years, and that there is no sufficient reason why we should change to-day. On the whole, I am in favour of maintaining the Sessional Order, for, I think it is one of those matters of which it is pre-eminently important that the House of Commons ought to be free to exercise its independent judgment.
§ Question put.
§ The House divided:—Ayes, 221; Noes, 142.
9| Abraham, William (Rhondda) | Balfour, Robert (Lanark) | Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine |
| Acland-Hood, Rt. Hon. Sir Alex. F. | Banbury, Sir Frederick George | Bramsdon, T. A. |
| Ainsworth, John Stirling | Baker, Sir John | Branch, James |
| Arnold-Forster, Rt. Hon. Hugh O. | Barnard, E. B. | Brunner, J. F. L. (Lancs., Leigh) |
| Ashton, Thomas Gair | Barry, Redmond J. (Tyrone, N.) | Buchanan, Rt. Hon. Thomas R. |
| Asquith, Rt. Hon. Herbert Henry | Beck, A. Cecil | Buckmaster, Stanley O. |
| Astbury, John Meir | Benn, Sir J. Williams (Devonport) | Bull, Sir Williams James |
| Atherley-Jones, L. | Bennett, E. N. | Burdett-Coutts, W. |
| Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth) | Berridge, T. H. D. | Burns, Rt. Hon. John |
| Baker, Joseph A. (Finsbury,E.) | Bethell, Sir J. H. (Essex, Romford) | Butcher, Samuel Henry |
| Baldwin, Stanley | Bethell, T. R. (Essex, Maldon) | Buxton, Rt. Hon. Sydney Charles |
| Campbell, Rt. Hon. J. H. M. | Hooper, A. G. | Ridsdale, E. A. |
| Carlile, E. Hildred | Howard, Hon. Geoffrey | Roberts, Sir J. H. (Denbighs.) |
| Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward H. | Jackson, R. S. | Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall) |
| Causton, Rt. Hon. Richard Knight | Jardine, Sir J. | Robson, Sir William Snowdon |
| Cawley. Sir Frederick | Johnson, W. (Nuneaton) | Roch, Walter F. (Pembroke) |
| Cecil. Lord John P. Joicey- | Jones, Sir D. Brynmor (Swansea) | Rose, Charles Day |
| Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J. A. (Worc'r.) | Jordan, Jeremiah | Rowlands, J. |
| Channing, Sir Francis Allston | Joynson-Hicks, William | Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter |
| Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry | Kennaway, Rt. Hon. Sir John H. | Russell, Rt. Hon. T. W. |
| Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R. | Kerry, Earl of | Rutherford, John (Lancashire) |
| Clough, William | Keswick, William | Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland) |
| Cobbold, Felix Thornley | Kimber, Sir Henry | Sandys. Col. Thos. Myles |
| Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E. | Kincaid-Smith. Captain M. | Sears, J. E. |
| Collings, Rt. Hon. J. (Birmingham) | King, Alfred John (Knutsford) | Seaverns, J. H. |
| Collins, Stephen (Lambeth) | Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm. | Seely, Colonel |
| Collins, Sir Wm. J. (St. Pancras, W.) | Lee, Arthur H. (Hants, Fareham) | Shaw, Sir Charles Edward (Stafford) |
| Corbett, C. H. (Sussex, E. Grinstead) | Leese, Sir Joseph F. (Accrington) | Shipman, Dr. John G. |
| Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. | Lever, A. Levy (Essex, Harwich) | Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie |
| Cowan, W. H. | Lever, W. H. (Cheshire, Wirral) | Snowden, P. |
| Craig, Charles Curtis (Antrim, S.) | Levy, Sir Maurice | Spicer, Sir Albert |
| Craig. Captain James (Down. E.) | Lewis. John Herbert | Stanier, Beville |
| Crooks. William | Lloyd-George. Rt. Hon. David | Stanley, Hon. A. Lyulph (Cheshire) |
| Crosfield, A. H. | Lyell, Charles Henry | Starkey, John R. |
| Davies, Ellis William (Eifion) | Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester) | Stewart, Halley (Greenock) |
| Davies. Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.) | Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk Burghs) | Stewart-Smith, D. (Kendal) |
| Dewar, Arthur (Edinburgh, S.) | Maclean, Donald | Stone, Sir Benjamin |
| Dewar, Sir J. A. (Inverness-sh.) | M'Arthur, Charles | Straus, B. S. (Mile End) |
| Dickinson, W. H. (St. Pancras, N.) | M'Crae, Sir George | Strauss, E. A. (Abingdon) |
| Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- | M'Laren, Sir C. B. (Leicester) | Tennant, Sir Edward (Salisbury) |
| Edwards. Enoch (Hanley) | M'Laren, H. D. (Stafford, W.) | Tennant, H. J. (Berwickshire) |
| Ellis, Rt. Hon. John Edward | M'Micking, Major G. | Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.) |
| Essex. R. W. | Magnus, Sir Philip | Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.) |
| Everett, R. Lacey | Mallet, Charles E. | Thornton, Percy M. |
| Faber, Capt. W. V. (Hants, W.) | Manfield, Harry (Northants) | Tomkinson, James |
| Fell, Arthur | Marnham, F. J. | Toulmin, George |
| Freeman-Thomas, Freeman | Mason, James F. (Windsor) | Trevelyan, Charles Philips |
| Fuller, John Michael F. | Masterman, C. F. G. | Valentia, Viscount |
| Gibbs, G. A. (Bristol. West) | Menzies. Walter | Verney, F. W. |
| Gill. A. H. | Meysey-Thompson, E. C. | Villiers, Ernest Amherst |
| Gladstone, Rt. Hon. Herbert John | Middlebrook. William | Walsh, Stephen |
| Glendenning, R. G. | Molteno, Percy Alport | Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent) |
| Glover, Thomas | Mond, A. | Wardle, George J. |
| Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford | Montagu, Hon. E. S. | Waring, Walter |
| Gooch, George Peabody (Bath) | Montgomery, H. G. | Warner, Thomas Courtenay T. |
| Griffith, Ellis J. | Morgan, G. Hay (Cornwall) | Waterlow, D. S. |
| Guinness, Hon. R. (Haggerston) | Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen) | Weir, James Galloway |
| Guinness, W. E. ( Bury St. Edmunds) | Morrell, Philip | Whitbread. S. Howard |
| Gulland, John W. | Morrison-Bell, Captain | White, Sir George (Norfolk) |
| Gurdon, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Brampton | Murray, James (Aberdeen, E.) | White, Sir Luke (York, E.R.) |
| Hall, Frederick | Myer, Horatio | Whitley, John Henry (Halifax) |
| Harcourt. Rt. Hon. L. (Rossendale) | Napier, T. B. | Whittaker, Rt. Hon. Sir Thomas P. |
| Hardy, George A. (Suffolk) | Nicholson, Charles N. (Doncaster) | Williams, J. (Glamorgan) |
| Haslam, James (Derbyshire) | Parker, Sir Gilbert (Gravesend) | Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.) |
| Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth) | Paulton, James Mellor | Wilson, P. W. (St. Pancras, S.) |
| Hayden, John Patrick | Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek) | Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm |
| Hazel, Dr. A. E. W. | Pearce, William (Limehouse) | Wood, T. M'Kinnon |
| Henry, Charles S. | Pease, Rt. Hon. J. A. (Saff. Wald.) | Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart- |
| Herbert, Col. Sir Ivor (Mon. S.) | Philipps, Col. Ivor (Southampton) | Younger, George |
| Herbert, T. Arnold (Wycombe) | Pickersgill, Edward Hare | Yoxall, James Henry |
| Hill, Sir Clement | Pretyman, E. G. | |
| Hills, J. W. | Rainy, A. Rolland | |
| Hobart, Sir Robert | Redmond, William (Clare) | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr. |
| Hobhouse, Charles E. H. | Rees, J. D. | Godfrey Baring and Mr. George D. |
| Hodge, John | Renton, Leslie | Faber. |
| Holland, Sir William Henry | Richardson, A. |
| NOES. | ||
| Abraham, W. (Cork, N.E.) | Brotherton, Edward Allen | Dobson, Thomas W. |
| Alden, Percy | Bryce, J. Annan | Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness) |
| Ambrose, Robert | Byles, William Pollard | Edwards, A. Clement (Denbigh) |
| Anson, Sir William Reynell | Cameron, Robert | Esslemont, George Birnie |
| Banner, John S. Harmood- | Castlereagh, Viscount | Fenwick, Charles |
| Barnes, G. N. | Cecil, Lord R. (Marylebone, E.) | Ferens, T. R. |
| Barry, E. (Cork, S.) | Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston S. | Ffrench, Peter |
| Bell, Richard | Cleland, J. W. | Findlay, Alexander |
| Bellairs, Carlyon | Condon, Thomas Joseph | Gardner, Ernest |
| Belloc, Hilaire Joseph Peter R. | Cooper, G. J. | Gibb, James (Harrow) |
| Bertram, Julius | Cotton, Sir H. J. S. | Ginnell, L. |
| Black, Arthur W. | Courthope, G. Loyd | Goulding, Edward Alfred |
| Boulton A. C. F. | Cox, Harold | Gwynn, Stephen Lucius |
| Bowerman, C. W. | Craik, Sir Henry | Harcourt, Robert V. ( Montrose) |
| Brace. William | Cullinan, J. | Hardie, J. Keir (Merthyr Tydvil) |
| Brigg, John | Davies, Timothy (Fulham) | Harris, Frederick Leverton |
| Bright, J. A. | Dike, Rt Hon. Sir Charles | Hart-Davies, T. |
| Brooke, Stopford. | Dillon, John | Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N.E.) |
| Hay, Hon. Claude George | Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.) | Robinson, S. |
| Hazleton, Richard | Meehan, Patrick A. (Queen's Co.) | Rutherford, V. H. (Brentford) |
| Heaton, John Henniker | Money, L. G. Chiozza | Scott, A. H. (Ashton-under-Lyne) |
| Hedges, A. Paget | Mooney, J. J. | Seddon. J. |
| Hemmerde, Edward George | Nicholls, George | Shackleton, David James |
| Henderson, Arthur (Durham) | Nolan, Joseph | Simon, John Allsebrook. |
| Higham, John Sharp | O'Brien, K. (Tipperary, Mid) | Smith, F. E. (Liverpool, Walton) |
| Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield) | O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) | Soares, Ernest J. |
| Hutton, Alfred Eddison | O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool) | Stanger, H. Y. |
| Jacoby, Sir James Alfred | Oddy, John James | Steadman, W. C. |
| Jenkins, J. | O'Grady, J. | Summerbell, T. |
| Johnson, John (Gateshead) | O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N.) | Taylor, John W. (Durham) |
| Jones, Leif (Appleby) | O'Shaughnessy, P. J. | Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton) |
| Jones. William (Carnarvonshire) | Parker, James (Halifax) | Thorne, William (West Ham) |
| Joyce, Michael | Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington) | Ure, Alexander |
| Kekewich, Sir George | Perks, Sir Robert William | Vivian, Henry |
| Kennedy, Vincent Paul | Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H. | Wadsworth, J. |
| Lamb, Edmund G. (Leominster.) | Power, Patrick Joseph | White, J. Dundas (Dumbartonshire) |
| Lamb, Ernest H. (Rochester) | Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central) | Wiles, Thomas |
| Lane-Fox, G. R. | Radford, G. H. | Wilkie, Alexander |
| Lea, Hugh Cecil (St. Pancras, E.) | Randles, Sir John Scurrah | Williams, W. Llewelyn (Carmarthen) |
| Lehmann. R. C. | Rea, Russell (Gloucester) | Willoughby de Eresby, Lord |
| Lundon, W. | Rea, Walter Russell (Scarboro') | Wilson, A. Stanley (York. E.R.) |
| Lupton, Arnold | Rendall, Athelstan | Wilson, John (Durham, Mid) |
| Mackarness, Frederic C. | Renwick, George | Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton) |
| Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J. | Richards, Thomas (W. Monmouth) | Winfrey, R. |
| MacVeigh, Charles (Donegal, E.) | Richards, T. F. (Wolverhampton, W.) | |
| M'Callum, John M. | Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln) | |
| M'Kean, John | Roberts, G. H. (Norwich) | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr. |
| M'Killop. W. | Robertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradford) | MacNeill and Mr. Curran. |
| Marks, G. Croydon (Launceston) | Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside) |