Commons Sitting of 20 August 1909

Preamble
Mr. Speaker took the chair at Twelve of the clock.
PRIVATE BUSINESS.
Glasgow Corporation Bill [Lords], as amended, considered; Amendments made; Bill to be read a third time.

HOUSE LETTING AND RATING (SCOTLAND) BILL.
Mr. ALEXANDER CROSS: May I ask your permission, Mr. Speaker, and the permission of the House, to present on the floor of the House a somewhat important Petition signed by about 18,000 persons. It relates to the Bill introduced by the Lord Advocate entitled "A Bill to Amend the Law as to the Letting and Bating of Small Dwelling Houses in Scotland, and for other purposes relating thereto."
The petitioners, being householders in Glasgow and elsewhere, are desirous that two Amendments should be made in the Bill—and prayed the House to order "(1) That a dwelling house as set forth in Clause 2 of the. Bill means a dwelling house let or to be let at a rent of £25 or under of yearly rent; and (2), that Clause 19 of the Bill as introduced be deleted, the Bill being made universally applicable to Scotland."

WORK OF THE SESSION.

  GOVERNMENT BUSINESS.
  The PRIME MINISTER (Mr. Asquith)The PRIME MINISTER (Mr. Asquith) moved, "That, for the remainder of the Session, Government Business be not interrupted under the provisions of any Standing Order regulating the Sittings of the House, and may be entered upon at any hour, though opposed, and have precedence at every Sitting; that, at the conclusion of Government Business each day, Mr. Speaker do adjourn the House without Question put; that on Fridays the House, unless it otherwise resolves, shall at its rising stand adjourned until the following Monday; and that no Motions be made to bring in Bills under Standing Order No. 11."
  The Motion I have to submit is the one which is customary at this time of the Session, but it contains one provision which is a departure from precedent. It is necessary to put in the words, "and have precedence at every Sitting" because the fourth Standing Order provides that, after Whitsuntide until Michaelmas, Government Business shall have precedence. If, by any chance the sittings of the House were prolonged until after Michaelmas, private Members' rights would at once be restored, and the necessity would, I am afraid, arise for the Government to bring in an independent Motion to prevent that state of things from coming into existence. It therefore seems, under the unusual conditions in which we are at present, desirable to stop that gap by introducing these unusual words into the Motion.
  It is the custom, when this annual Motion is made, for the person responsible for it to make a brief survey of the work which they have actually done and of that part of the legislative programme which is still unachieved, and of which we may reasonably contemplate the accomplishment.

  BILLS PASSED.
  As regards the first point we have either obtained the Royal assent, or practically passed through both Houses of Parliament so that they are ready for Royal assent, 15 measures. They include:

  Indian Councils Bill,

  South Africa Bill,

  Labour Exchanges Bill,

  Trade Boards Bill,

  Marine Insurance (Gambling Policies) Bill,

  and two of the three Bills introduced for the purpose of providing Government Departments—in this particular instance the Board of Trade and the Department of Agriculture—with additional Parliamentary assistance. The only one of these 15 measures which still needs consideration in either House is the
  Trawling in Prohibited Areas (Prevention Bill),
  as to which it is still necessary to dispose of the Lords' Amendments. So much for what has actually been achieved.

  BILLS TO BE ABANDONED.
  Looking to the future, I think it will be convenient if I at once state the Bills, introduced or promised, which time pre-

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  vents our passing during the present Session, those which are generally called the "Innocents." They are as follows:—

  Established Church (Wales) Bill,

  Milk and Dairies Bill,

  Milk and Dairies (Scotland) Bill,

  Building and Engineering Works Bill,

  Checkweighing in Various Industries Bill,

  Houses of Parliament Bill,

  Shops (No. 2) Bill,

  Hops (No. 2) Bill,

  Places of Worship Enfranchisement Bill,

  County Courts Bill,

  London Electric Supply Bill,

  Election of Aldermen in Municipal Boroughs Bill.

  None of these, I am afraid, have any chance of passing during this Session.

  BILLS TO BE PASSED.
  Now I turn to the remaining Government Programme. There are, as far as I know, three Bills, and three only, of those with which we intend to proceed that can be described as of a controversial character. There is first and foremost,
  Finance Bill,
  next
  Irish Land Bill,
  and, thirdly,
  London Elections Bill.
  Those Bills we hope to pass through this House. I come next to a series of Bills, none of which can be described as contentious, but which it is essential we should get through—

  Housing and Town Planning Bill,

  House Letting and Rating (Scotland) Bill,

  which is on the Paper to-day, two Naval Bills, which are necessary in order to facilitate the carrying out of the proceedings of the Imperial Conference.

  Colonial Naval Defence Bill,

  Naval Establishments Bill,

  Expiring Laws Continuance Bill,

  Electric Lighting Acts Amendment Bill,

  which is also on the Paper to-day;
  Assistant Postmaster-General Bill,
  one of the three Departmental Bills to which I referred, and
  The County Councils Mortgages Bill, which I am told is the Bill of the right
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  hon. Gentleman the Chief Opposition Whip (Sir A. Acland-Hood). There are three other Bills which have not yet been introduced, but which we should hope will receive the assent of Parliament, but about which I do not profess to speak in very sanguine terms—
  Board of Agriculture (Scotland) Bill, which has been introduced in another place;
  The Development Bill,
  which my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer has promised and will probably introduce next week, and which I believe he regards as of a non-controversial character.
  Lord ROBERT CECILindicated dissent.
  The PRIME MINISTER: The Noble Lord the Member for Marylebone shakes his head, but he has not seen the Bill. Until that Bill has seen the light of day, and has been subjected to the scrutiny of a few days' Parliamentary observation, I hesitate to pronounce a definite judgment on its character or reception. The third Bill in the same category is
  The Police Bill.
  That is a Bill which I believe everybody would like to see passed, because it makes provision for an extra day of rest for the police in accordance with the Report of the Select Committee, and I should trust that that will go through without serious opposition. There are two other Bills, also Home Office Bills, which it is very desirable to pass if possible—

  Workmen's Compensation Act (Anglo-French Convention) Amendment Bill,

  Coal Mines Regulation Bill,

  introduced by my right hon. Friend the other night to correct an error in the Act of last year. Those are all Bills which we should like to see, and which we will endeavour to see, carried through, subject to the observations I have made.

  BILLS UNCERTAIN.
  Then there are a certain number of other Bills, the titles of which appear on the Notice Paper to-day. They are—

  Customs and Inland Revenue Bill,

  Telegraph (Arbitration) Bill,

  Cinematograph Bill,

  Child Murder (Trial) Bill,

  Local Government (Audit of Accounts) (Ireland) Bill,

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  Lunacy (Ireland) Bill,

  Merchandise Marks (Ireland) Bill,

  Fisheries (Ireland) Bill,

  Weeds and Agricultural Seeds (Ireland) Bill,

  Dublin Police Bill.

  None of these will be pressed if they excite anything in the nature of serious opposition in any part of the House, although we shall be glad to see them passed. The same observation applies to three other Bills which do not appear on our Paper, but which are in progress in the House of Lords, namely—

  Summary Jurisdiction (Scotland) Bill,

  Prisons (Scotland) Bill,

  Assurance Companies Bill.

  PRIVATE MEMBERS' BILLS.
  In regard to private Members' Bills, facilities, of course, can only be given them, with the single exception which I will mention in a moment, if they are practically unopposed. That observation applies also to some six Charity Bills, which are semi-public, and to which I do not believe there is any serious opposition. There is one private Member's Bill—the Temperance (Scotland) Bill—which has passed through the Scottish Standing Committee.
  I am not in a position at this moment to give any definite pledge in regard to that measure; but should time and facilities offer, the Government will be anxious that the time which has been spent on it should not be wasted, and that it should be passed through the Report and Third Reading stages. I can only express the hope and desire that we may find ourselves in a position to give such facilities.

  SUMMARY.
  The summary of the matter is this, so far as the future is concerned. We ask the House to proceed with three, and only three, measures of a contentious kind introduced by the Government—

  Finance Bill,

  Irish Land Bill,

  London Elections Bill.

  But we hope, so far as this House is concerned, at any rate, that we may succeed in getting through the Bills, the titles of which I have read out, and which fall into the first category. As regards those which are on the Notice Paper to-day, we shall not press them if
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  there is anything in the nature of serious opposition in any quarter of the House. I ought not to conclude without referring to a suggestion which has been made by the hon. Member for Barnard Castle (Mr. Arthur Henderson) in regard to the time of sitting. He has represented that it would be convenient to himself and his Friends, and indeed to a large number, at any rate while the Finance Bill was before the House, we should sit at rather an earlier hour of the day. I think he suggested as early an hour as eleven o'clock in the morning. I can only say, so far as I am concerned, that I leave the matter entirely in the hands of the House. A change of that kind in the hours of sitting can only be arrived at by general agreement, but I am very much afraid that the hon. Member will find that there are considerable sections of the House to whom these early sittings would be, I do not say intolerable, but very inconvenient as interfering with business and other avocations. It is a matter which we should regard generally, and I should prefer that the Government should not take any initiative in proposing such a change. I do not think there is any other observation which I have to make at this stage in regard to the programme as a whole, but I shall be glad to reply to any inquiry in regard to the progress of any Bill.
  Mr. A. J. BALFOUR: The Sessional statement habitual in our procedure has, I suppose, never been made so late in the year as 20th August. It is at least a month later than we have been familiar with under the practice of the right hon. Gentleman himself, and, I think, of his predecessors. It may be that there is a precedent for it, but certainly my own recollection does not at the moment supply me with any precedent for a Motion which is usually supposed to herald the end of the Session being made at so late a date. The right hon. Gentleman has put off this Motion a month later than usual. Now that he has made it I cannot see when the end of the Session is to be. But I should gather from the general tenour of his remarks that we may look forward to the prospect of spending two or three months more in the pursuit of these legislative chimeras. It is surely not without its significance that the right hon. Gentleman has framed his Resolution in a manner hitherto without precedent, because of the near approach of Michaelmas. I believe I was myself responsible as Leader of the House for the original Rule which gave the Government precedence on all Fridays,

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  except two, after Whitsuntide, and I remember there was a great discussion, and it was then felt that unless there was an Autumn Session there was no reason why we should not introduce that limit. The right hon. Gentleman hates Autumn Sessions, but does he hate sitting in the autumn? He has the strongest objection, I am sure, on private grounds—that is a view common to all parties in the House—and on public grounds, he has a great dislike born of experience to asking the House to reassemble in the autumn to carry on its business. But he has no objection at all to the House sitting through the ordinary period, through the ordinary holidays, and then through the months of the Autumn Session. Of the two bad things, I frankly admit that I regard the latter as very much the worse. It is a very singular policy for the Government to pursue, who only a few months ago announced that they did not think it was a proper use to put the Parliamentary machine to; that it was injurious to the careful study of legislative projects; that it threw an undue burden upon the officers of the House and upon the permanent officials, on whose assistance every Government must rely so much for the accurate working out of the measures they bring in. It may be even injurious to their efficiency if they are asked to sit through these two terms.
  A no less interesting part of the policy of the Government is I notice that they ask the House to suspend the Eleven o'clock Rule. The Prime Minister has got a fine sense of humour, which he has shown by the manner in which he has asked the House to go through this very empty form. It is like informing the citizens of some besieged place who have had nothing to eat for many days that they ought to be content with half rations. We are informed that henceforth we must never expect to go to bed at eleven o'clock, when, as a matter of fact, so many of us never go to bed at all. It is I will not say adding insult to injury, but it is something very like it to ask us to sit up all night for four consecutive days, and then to come down and with all the solemnity of Parliamentary form and Ministerial statement to say that henceforth the Eleven o'clock Rule is to be suspended. I do not know that I need make any further reference to that except to refer to what fell from the right hon. Gentleman with regard to the proposal which has been suggested by the
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  hon. Gentleman the Member for Barnard Castle. The Member for Barnard Castle, recognising, I suppose, that the sittings might be long, thinks that at least they might occur during the hours when ordinary respectable citizens do their work. The Government decline all responsibility for making any proposal of the kind, and if they do not nobody else can. And there is one very serious objection in addition to the object hinted at by the Prime Minister. The Prime Minister's objection was that there are many Gentlemen—and I hope there will always be—who have other avocations and other work than merely carrying out their Parliamentary duties. But there is this further objection—what security have we that if we begin at eleven, let us say, on Monday, we shall be any more likely to get to bed before nine o'clock on Tuesday morning? That would be, if anything, worse than the existing system, which is that of sitting up all night. It would that of sitting up all day as well. Much as I object to spending 15 hours of the 24 in this House—too many of these 15 hours are in the small hours of the morning—our case would not improve if we were to add on to them all the ordinary working hours of an ordinary civilised day. Under these circumstances, I venture to suggest to the hon. Member for Barnard Castle, if he will accept the suggestion from me, that before advancing the idea that we should meet at an earlier hour, he ought to take some further steps to insure that we shall not sit late.
  I go now to the actual statement which was made by the right hon. Gentleman. He divided the Bills, according to his own custom and the custom of his predecessors in the office, into Bills which are controversial and Bills which may or may not be controversial, and Bills as to which he is tolerably confident that they are not controversial. I am not sure that the classification is one which would precisely in every respect meet the views of the habitual opponents of the Government. We all admit that the Budget is one Bill that is controversial. There is no question about that. The London Elections Bill and the Irish Land Bill are also controversial. But is the right hon. Gentleman right in saying that another Bill to which he referred—the Scottish House Letting Bill—is not controversial? I do not profess myself to have an acquaintance with that measure, or with all these questions which it suggests, but I certainly have received hints and suggestions from those who are more acquainted with the

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  subject than I am that it would be well not to ask the House to pass that Bill without having a very full discussion, and I think that the right hon. Gentleman must not be too confident.
  The PRIME MINISTER: It is on the Report stage.
  Mr. BALFOUR: Of course, if the Bill has gone so far there may be some hope of its proving less difficult than I was inclined to think with such imperfect information as I had. But we shall see, at all events. Then the right hon. Gentleman is tolerably confident that the Temperance (Scotland) Bill is uncontroversial.
  The PRIME MINISTER: No; the right hon. Gentleman is under a misapprehension. I am under no such illusion. It is not non-controversial.
  Mr. BALFOUR: I thought that was a Bill which the right hon. Gentleman believed would pass without contention. My own experience is that if everybody is unanimous about desiring temperance nobody is unanimous with respect to the methods by which it is to be attained, and it would be a most fortunate measure which would escape controversy, whether proposed by Gentlemen on this side of the House or by followers or Members of the party opposite. We know nothing about the Anglo-French Convention and its relation to the Workmen's Compensation Bill, and therefore it is quite impossible for me to say anything. At first sight it is extremely puzzling to me to know how our relations with France can affect compensation to British workmen.
  The PRIME MINISTER: It is only to give reciprocal rates to French workmen in this country and English workmen in France in regard to compensation.
  Mr. BALFOUR: I am very far from condemning such a proposal—very far. I think it may be a perfectly proper proposal; but, unless I have been misinformed, the right hon. Gentleman on his own authority entered into reciprocal relations with the French Government to give information with regard to property held by French citizens in this country and by English citizens in France, and the result will be to drive out of London an immense mass of securities which are held here. Unless this effort at reciprocity is more happily framed than the one in which the right hon. Gentleman has
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  already indulged, I think it will be very disastrous to this country, but hope for better things. The only other Bill to which I need refer at all is the Coal Mines Regulation Act Amendment Bill. If I remember aright the Coal Mines Regulation Act was passed late last year, and has only been in operation a very short time. I quite agree that in a complicated measure we cannot hope to pass it without its requiring subsequent amendment, but certainly I should have thought that the Coal Mines Regulation Act was not a very complicated measure. It has been under the consideration of this House so often and so long, and the Government have had such opportunities of dealing with it, that they might have been able to frame its provisions and to avoid the necessity of its being amended almost before it has come into operation. I gather that this is not so much a Bill introduced on its merits at the end of August, but that it is rather a Bill introduced in order to fulfil a pledge casually given at a bye-election by one of His Majesty's Ministers. That is an additional reason for thinking, as I have often thought, that the plan requiring Ministers of the Crown to seek re-election on taking office is extremely absurd; this is a new and additional objection to the plan, which I have always thought antiquated and belonging to a wholly past phase of our Parliamentary Government. If these re-elections are to be the occasion on which new and unauthorised programmes are to be started by Ministers in distress, and if, thereupon, the House is to be asked to sit after Michaelmas in order to carry them through, it really adds a new terror to Ministerial life. If I remember rightly a pledge was given by another Minister, also in distress—the right hon. Gentleman the President of the Board of Trade, His pledge was as to Home Rule. Even the energy of the present Government and the patience of the present House of Commons are, I presume, hardly equal to beginning a Home Rule controversy, not in the dog days, but long after the dog days have passed and the autumn frosts are about to begin. I have nothing more to say about the scheme of the right hon. Gentleman. We shall see how it works out. I think that, like many of his predecessors and like myself when I occupied his place, he is somewhat over-sanguine as to what measures will be passed, but if he is really going to throw upon this House in the next two or three months a strain at

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  all comparable to the strain that has been thrown upon it during the last six weeks, then I can only say that, in my opinion, he is doing the very greatest possible disservice to the traditions of the House, to the efficiency of the House, to the health of Members, and to the effective capacity of the permanent officials and officers of the House to carry out the immense responsibilities with which they are entrusted. My right hon. Friend (Mr. Lyttelton) puts to me whether it is worth while to ask the right hon. Gentleman if he can forecast the time we shall be here. Clearly there is no use whatever in asking him that. He cannot tell us how long we shall be sitting here. I do not ask him for a prophecy which he might be reluctant to give, and which, if he gave it, would almost certainly be falsified by the fact.
  Mr. ARTHUR HENDERSON: The suggestion of my colleagues is, that under the very special circumstances in which the House has been working during the last few weeks it should be made possible for us to meet at an earlier hour. The Leader of the Opposition has asked us to try to arrange, before seeking to bring about an earlier hour of meeting, to bring about an earlier time of closing. It seems to us that if the Government could have arranged for the sittings of the House to begin at 11 or 12 o'clock, as we do on Friday, it would so have facilitated the work of the House that we would, at any rate on most days, have closed the sitting three or four hours earlier than we have been doing during the past few weeks. We were encouraged to bring before the Government the suggestion that we might meet on an earlier hour, because of the fact that at this time of the Session few, if any, of the regular Committees are sitting, and I believe I am right in saying that when a Debate has taken place on previous occasions on the subject of earlier time of meeting of the ordinary sittings of the House, two strong arguments have always been advanced, first the number of Committees that required the attendance of Members at 11 or half-past 11 o'clock in the morning, and the other was the difficulty of getting the attendance of so many Members who were engaged in connection with Committees upstairs, or as lawyers were engaged in their cases in the law courts. That argument cannot apply at the present time, for I believe I am right in saying we are in the Long Vacation, and as I have already stated Committees are scarcely at all sittings.
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  No argument seems to be left against meeting at 11 or 12 o'clock, except it be that of Ministers who may be engaged in Departmental work. That argument was not advanced to-day. The argument that the Prime Minister advanced, namely, that of asking Members of the House who have business to attend to to come here at an earlier hour, seems to me not to have the force in it that might at first be imagined. What are we doing to-day? We are not asking all the Members of the House to sit here till the early hours of the morning. At any rate, we do not get the whole of the Members of the House, or anything like a large percentage of the Members of the House, to sit here morning after morning to an early hour. What have we found during the past week? I think during the whole of the last all-night sitting we had 130 on one side in nearly the whole of the Divisions, and between 40 and 50 Members on the other side. Surely, if it is possible to arrange, and I suppose there is a certain amount of arrangement, whereby a large number of the Members are permitted to go home for certain hours and permitted to come in when it most suits their convenience, surely if that is possible when we are working through the whole of the night and into the early hours of the morning, it is also possible to arrange for a sufficient number of Members to be here at 11 o'clock, so that the work of the House can be carried on at a time when Members were best capable of giving all that was best within them to the work that the House had in hand? It seems to me that no solid practical argument can be advanced against making an arrangement, especially during the time the Finance Bill is under consideration.
  However, I am glad that the Prime Minister has left it to the House. I do not take it, as the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition does, that because the Government have not made this proposal, or proposed the change that we have suggested, that it is impossible for the change to be brought about. It seems to me that the responsibility is now thrown: upon the Members of the House, and all parties in the House, and if there can be general agreement, as I hope there can be, that the business of the House could be conducted from 11 o'clock or from 12 o'clock until the ordinary hour by getting a sufficient number of Members in attendance, it ought not to be impossible for that arrangement to be brought about. After the very extensive programme that the Prime Minister has brought before us,

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  not one of the measures of which we, sitting on these benches, think ought not to be passed, any Member of the House would prefer to make all the sacrifice that would be necessary in order to have the whole of the Government programme pushed through before the end of the Session. We should be prepared to make the whole of the sacrifice, to wait up even under the present arrangement, in favour of that, if there was no alternative. But we are not convinced that there is no arrangement possible. There is an alternative, this alternative I have suggested, an arrangement whereby Members who sit through the early hours of the morning could be induced to come down here two or three hours earlier, as we have done to-day and as we do every Friday, and that we could thereby get home three or four hours earlier, which I think would be an advantage, not only to the Members, but would be an advantage to the ordinary officials of the House who have to be kept here, as we are kept here, until each of the sittings close. Therefore I sincerely hope the Members of the House will be prepared to join with us on these Benches to see if some arrangement cannot be made whereby this alteration can be entered into at the earliest possible moment.
  Mr. F. C. MACKARNESS: May I ask the Prime Minister to give an indication as to the remaining stages of the Housing and Town Planning Bill?
  Lord ROBERT CECIL: The hon. Member for Barnard Castle (Mr. Henderson) made the interesting suggestion, which was alluded to by the Prime Minister, that the House should meet at 11 o'clock in the morning, and should go on regularly to 11 or 12 o'clock at night. If that were the real proposal which the Government would hold out to the House, I confess, though I should regard it as a bad expedient, yet as an alternative to sitting up all night, I must say there is a good deal to be said for it. But I do not gather that the Government would give any such undertaking at all. They have not given the slightest sign of doing so. The Chancellor of the Exchequer is not here, but I feel quite confident he would not be a party to any such proposal being made. I shall have a word or two to say about that later on. I desire to add one word to what the hon. Member for Barnard Castle said. He alluded to the fact that during the all-night sittings there was a small portion
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  of the House present. That is quite true, but I do not draw the same conclusion that the hon. Member did. I think that shows what a very bad expedient all-night sittings are. I think it is not a good precedent at all, for what ought to be done in reference to the procedure of the House. There is a comparatively small number of the Members of this House who take a great interest in a particular measure. Necessarily that must be so, and I think it is one of the glories of the House that you always find a certain small number who are more or less experts in every Bill that comes before the House. What you want to secure is the attendance of those Members of the House during the discussion of the Bill. It is really immaterial whether the great mass of the Members attend or not except that there must be a majority of course to keep the Government of the day in office. But beyond that it does not really much matter whether they attend or not. The strain of the all night sittings on the small number is the real difficulty which all-night sittings seem to have. I do not think the fact that they attend or not. The strain of the all-night occasionally is any guarantee you will be able to get them here from day to day, sacrificing their own private business from 11 o'clock in the morning to 11 o'clock at night. At the same time, if it were really possible to make a definite binding arrangement that the House would not be asked to sit up all night, I think that it would be so great a boon and improvement that I should be myself prepared to support such a proposal as that made by the hon. Member for Barnard Castle, in order to deal with this present difficulty, and as an exceptional measure for the difficulty we find ourselves in now.
  I should like to draw the attention of the Prime Minister to one or two of the Bills on the Paper. I do not suggest that the Government should take up any other private Member's Bill, but I ask them to consider favourably, for another occasion, a little Bill in which I am personally interested, namely, the Infant Life Protection Bill. There is no real opposition to it, but I do not think it would be fair to ask the Government to take it up this Session, because there are some Gentlemen—I do not know what their reasons may be—who are still opposed to it. It is, however, a measure of real reform, not a very large one, but of an important character, and I hope the Government will be able in the future to take it up. Then may I refer to the Bishopric of Sheffield

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  Bill, in which I take great interest. I regret that that Bill cannot be regarded as altogether uncontroversial. That is regrettable, because I am convinced, whatever opinions there may be as to Disestablishment and Nonconformity, everyone must desire that improvements should be made in a great organisation like the Church of England, which, after all, is engaged for the most part in work which all of us regard as of the highest importance and in the best interests of the country. Therefore, I hope the Government will at some time or other, if they have time, consider carefully whether some general Bill in reference to bishoprics cannot be passed to facilitate the creation of subordinate bishoprics where it is quite plain that for the proper accomplishment of the spiritual work of the Church such a thing is desirable. Every Member of the House, when he comes to think over the subject impartially, will, I am sure, agree that such a measure would be a desirable change in our organisation, and one which might be passed without very severe opposition.
  1.0 P.M.
  I think the House at large has some reason to complain of what has been done in reference to the Housing and Town Planning Bill. Last year an immense amount of time and labour was spent on the consideration of that Bill in Standing Committee, but owing, to want of time it did not get any farther. The Government then said, "We are going to give great facilities to this Bill. We will have a new departure; we will rush it through Committee, Report, and Third Reading, and send it up to the other House"—where, whatever we may think of their decisions, there are a great number of gentlemen who are qualified to express opinions upon the Bill and give it consideration from a practical point of view. But what has happened? That was said at the beginning of the Session, and the Bill is still in exactly the same position as it then was. That is not a proper way of treating the matter. The Government have submitted the Bill to a guillotine of a very severe kind; there are to be only two days for Committee and one for Report and Third Reading, which is perfectly preposterous when you consider the amount of detail contained in the Bill, and will do nothing but waste two or three days of Parliamentary time in futile and inadequate discussion. It would have been far better to have sent the Bill to a Standing Committee in the ordinary course early in the
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  Session. It would have meant a considerable amount of attention and reconsideration of points which were partially considered last year; but the Bill would not have been any the worse for it, as it still requires a good deal of attention, and no time would have been lost in passing the measure into law. I greatly regret the course the Government have taken in regard to the Bill, and under the circumstances there is grave doubt whether it is any good proceeding further with it this Session. With regard to the Development Bill, we only know what the Chancellor of the Exchequer has told us; but the principle laid down by him seems to be so exceedingly dangerous, that if the Bill carries it out I cannot believe that it will prove to be in any way non-contentious. One word in conclusion about the proceedings on the Finance Bill. I do not think any Member regards the methods which have been employed to carry the Finance Bill as far as it has gone as anything like satisfactory. Nobody can pretend that to discuss complicated and technical details between three and nine in the morning is in any way a satisfactory method of legislating. It is said by the Chancellor of the Exchequer that it is at any rate an improvement on the guillotine. I do not agree. Personally, as I have said over and over again, of all expedients for legislating I consider there is nothing worse than all-night sittings. The guillotine is very bad, but I prefer the guillotine to all-night sittings. I do not believe you get substantially better discussions at an all-night sitting than under the guillotine, and there is the additional disadvantage that it destroys the temper and health of Members of the House. It is not only the private Member; he has his own way out of the difficulty—he may simply absent himself. It is disastrous to the government of the country, because it weakens and destroys the vitality and energy of Ministers. It is a very serious matter, and I am convinced that it is fatal to the constitution of the country. The Government came into power pledged to restore the position of the House of Commons, but although they have been in office three and a half years they have done next to nothing to improve the conditions which obtain. I have urged that a Committee should be appointed to consider the matter, and the Prime Minister has been good enough to say that he largely agrees with me. I do not see why that Committee, which a large number of Members

  1687
  desire, should not have been appointed weeks ago. I do not believe that the problem of the procedure of this House is insoluble. I do not believe in the guillotine nor in all-night sittings, nor even in the new Closure—which I understand is now described as "Kangaroo Closure"— although it does not work badly in some respects, provided it is applied fairly by the Chairman. It all depends on the absolute impartiality of the Chairman who presides over our Debates. I am not going to say a word in criticism of either the Chairman or the Deputy-Chairman; but I do desire to emphasise that point very strongly, and to press upon the Government and the House generally that if this system is not applied fairly it will certainly break down, and not achieve even the modified amount of good which its fair application might secure. But however good it may be no one can pretend, after the experience of a week or two, that it is a complete solution of the difficulties of the procedure of this House. It may be an improvement, it may do some good, but it is not a solution, and I say that if this House is to continue—and it must continue—we must find somehow or another a real solution of the difficulties of the procedure of this House. If we do not the House is going to lose its position, and with it, as I have often said before, the chief instrument of government, not only of this country, but of the Empire at large.
  Sir FREDERICK BANBURY: I rise to say one word upon the Scotch Temperance Bill. I do not quite know whether the Prime Minister realises the position of that Bill. It passed its second reading in February—the first Bill to do so. It went to Grand Committee and remained there till 12th May. There cannot be the slightest suggestion of obstruction, for the Closure was never once applied. It only shows that a Bill that took three months to consider in Grand Committee, without the Closure having been once moved, is hardly a Bill to bring forward on 20th August in addition to the others that have been mentioned. I therefore really do hope that the Prime Minister, now that he is made acquainted with the facts—though, no doubt, he knew them before—will recognise that it will be quite impossible to pass this Bill through the House unless we are going to sit till Christmas.
  Mr. J. D. REES: May I ask whether the Prime Minister will try to get through the
  1688
  Places of Worship (Enfranchisement) Bill? It would be very acceptable to Wales. My Constituents and my colleagues are greatly interested in the Bill, and as the Welsh have been disappointed in regard to another, and a larger Bill, if the Prime Minister could manage to get through this little matter, it would be very much appreciated.
  Mr. ALFRED LYTTELTON: I must think that the conduct of the business by the Government this year has been such as to require a protest from anybody who really values the dignity and status of the House of Commons. I shall say some things which, I am afraid, will not be altogether palatable to the Government, but I take this opportunity of saying to their face what I shall certainly say in the country hereafter. I maintain that the Opposition in this long Session has every title to the kindly consideration of the Government for the method in which they have conducted the Opposition. I do not go beyond this Session. There have been four Bills of very great importance which might easily have been treated in a factious way by the Opposition had they followed the example of their predecessors on these Benches. But they have not done so, as has been acknowledged by the Ministers in charge of these Bills—I refer to the Housing and Town Planning Bill, the Labour Exchanges Bill, the Trade Boards Bill, and the South Africa Bill.
  Sir FREDERICK BANBURY: And the Indian Councils Bill.
  Mr. LYTTELTON: Yes, and the Indian Councils Bill. Let us take the Housing and Town Planning Bill. I have some expert knowledge of this subject, and on both occasions I have spoken in favour of the second reading of the Bill. My friends never divided upon the second reading at all. For 18 days last year we considered this Bill in Grand Committee, and a real endeavour was made, especially by my Noble Friend on this side of the House and by many hon. Gentlemen on that, to get the Bill into some sort of shape. I cannot say that it was altogether successful, because the Bill as drafted was so absolutely unintellgible, and those in charge of it, who had not the assistance of a law officer—I do not blame either of them, for they were not lawyers—were quite incapable of explaining to the Committee the provisions of their own Bill. Ultimately—I do not think it really was due so much to the Government as to

  1689
  private Members—the Bill was put into shape. But it is a novel proposition, a difficult experiment, and I say this with perfect seriousness, that if ever there was a Bill that required the collective experience, sagacity, and practical knowledge of the whole House it is this Bill. What is the reward for the conduct of the Opposition, who spent days in endeavouring to hammer this Bill into some shape? The guillotine has been put on, two days allowed for Committee, and one day for Report and Third Reading. I say, with absolute sincerity, that the work involved in the Bill is the best work this House can do. It is that on its general principles both parties are agreed. Such work is ruined by such treatment as this. Men who have the most friendly disposition towards the Bill will, if it has to be passed through in that way, feel a just resentment against certain measures which have been imperfectly considered. I shall endeavour to make it clear that the Government are responsible, and must be responsible, for the disfigurement which must exist owing to their conduct of this measure. The Opposition have agreed to two other measures, both, in my opinion, useful, but both novel and serious experiments, the Labour Exchanges and the Trade Boards Bills. The President of the Board of Trade has admitted publicly that but for the assistance obtained from the Opposition with regard to the Trade Boards Bill it would not have had a chance of being passed into law. Without going quite so far as that with regard to the Labour Exchanges Bill, I think a similar remark is tolerably accurate. Lastly, there is the South Africa Bill. From the opinion of all that Bill has been treated in an absolutely unbiassed and non-partizan spirit by the Opposition. We are all human, and I must say that if ever upon a great topic the Opposition had some excuse for being factious it is upon the subject of South Africa. The conduct of their predecessors, when they were upon these benches was such as to be apologised for by the Colonial Secretary, Lord Elgin. The late Government was described by the President of the Board of Trade—I do not use such long words myself—in very long elaborate sentences that it would not be Parliamentary for me to reduce into the Anglo-Saxon language. Yesterday's Divisions proclaimed in absolutely unmistakeable terms that if we had yielded to the temptation, and had imitated the wreckless and unscrupulous tactics of the
  1690
  Government when they were in Opposition the great work of South African statesmen would have been placed in jeopardy, and a very damaging blow might have been struck at the Government. Let nobody mistake me for a moment. I do not mean the Opposition were in the least danger of yielding to that temptation, but I claim that in abstaining from taking up any sort of partisan position on the Bill they were entitled, more than entitled, to fair and considerate treatment regarding the conduct of the business of this House from the Government. My Noble Friend has referred to the Budget. Surely that was a proposal of the greatest possible magnitude and of the greatest possible novelty. It has been described by an ex-Liberal Prime Minister as revolutionary; by its own authors it is claimed to be an original, far-reaching and elaborate measure, and it is acclaimed by those having Socialistic opinions. There is not a candid man in the country who does not admit that it is a measure which not only invited, but required and demanded the most serious possible criticism and the most searching scrutiny. I do not think anyone denies that. Yet everyone knows the conditions under which, owing to the conduct of the Government, the House has had to proceed with its criticisms on that measure. Notwithstanding that we have been kept here night after night and morning after morning in a manner exhausting to health and most damaging to the House of Commons, what has this Opposition accomplished? The Bill has been almost remodelled. The cost of valuation, which really with ludicrous want of knowledge, was supposed to be paid, in the first instance, by the owners and the landlords, and which was to be rendered in 30 days, has now been thrown upon the State. Agricultural land has been exempted, open spaces and town-planning arrangements have been provided for in some measure, although the Chancellor of the Exchequer, when I raised the point upon the Resolutions, said I had only to wait to see the Bill and everything would be satisfactory. So little did he know of his own Bill that when I opened it not a single word was to be found in it in reference to this subject, and the Amendments were only inserted through the exertions of private Members. The absurd provision about ungotten minerals has gone. The Chancellor of the Exchequer says from the first he really meant the taxation of royalties, while the Bill provided for the taxation of ungotten minerals. The concessions, as the Govern-

  1691
  ment call them, but which I say have been forced from the Government by fair argument, have absolutely justified us. The Government have seen if they did not yield they would have had to suffer for the disfigurement of their measure. I say it is not fair or true for the Chancellor of the Exchequer to come down here and speak of concessions and appeal to our gratitude. I say the boot is upon the other leg. I say we are entitled to the gratitude of the Chancellor of the Exchequer for having shown to him and explained to him the necessity for this remodelling of the Bill, and which, if not carried, would have reduced the Bill to failure. We have been treated in this matter by the Chancellor of the Exchequer in a manner that I, for one, do not consider fair or right. The Chancellor, as has been often remarked from these benches, has conducted the discussions in this House with great courtesy and good temper; but that courtesy and good temper and fairness have only been for consumption on the premises in this House of Parliament. On off-nights, at Limehouse and other places, the Chancellor exhibits far different and far more objectionable qualities. I can only say he has been guilty outside this House of calumnious inaccuracies; he has made appeals to class passions, and I say it is contrary to every principle of fair play that we should be cajoled with fair words and coaxed into sitting up all night by the Chancellor of the Exchequer in this House while outside hè should resort to the methods which appeal to the worst passions of his supporters and to their lowest motives. I say this with absolute sincerity: I am certain that methods which involve such immensely long hours as well as such continuous sittings, the House of Commons which we have known cannot continue. The present House of Commons—although the majority of its Members differ widely from the opinions I hold—is a House of Commons of great ability, which under fair conditions discusses and debates subjects as well, if not better, than any of its predecessors. I agree with my Noble Friend that that which often distinguishes this House of Commons, as against all other Assemblies in the world, is that it contains a number of men who are profoundly experienced in the different classes of business and knowledge. Scarcely any debate can take place upon any subject that two or three men to whom it is a liberal education to
  1692
  listen do not rise and take part in it. You cannot keep such men in the House if you insist upon exhausting them with such hours and such labours as you are putting on the House. The greatest Parliamentarians of the past have always admitted this. Mr. Gladstone actually said that seven months work was all the House of Commons could reasonably be expected to do. The Prime Minister who is always courteous to us, since he has been in power, and despite the professions of himself and his party when in Opposition, has laid a heavier burden upon this House, and has, I venture to say—and I have spoken to many people outside upon this subject—done more to bring this House as a business assembly into the general contempt of business men outside than anyone else. I say that because I know it is so, and I have heard it said on many sides. Who can possibly be found to deny that it is a preposterous and unbusiness-like thing to invite this House to consider all through the night and during the early hours of the morning proposals of great intricacy which are imperfectly understood by those who propose them, and which require a clear mind to consider them during ordinary hours, instead of the early hours of the morning. I submit this protest, because I feel sure that if this kind of procedure is persisted in this House cannot maintain its past character and dignity.
  The PRIME MINISTER: It is difficult to see what relevance the tirade which the right hon. Gentleman has just delivered bears to the Motion before the House. It is charitable, perhaps, to regard it as a rehearsal or trial trip of an oration which is hereafter to do.service, perhaps, at Bingley Hall. I am not going to follow the right hon. Gentleman into the charges which he has made against the Government, and I am not going into the claims he has put forward in regard to what he appears to regard as an exceptionally virtuous Opposition. What has this exceptionally virtuous Opposition done to merit any degree of consideration and generosity beyond that which it has so amply received? It has positively voted, not against, but in favour of a Bill of which it approves. That is the utmost claim the right hon. Gentleman has to put forward. He takes the South Africa Bill of yesterday, and he says "We might have been factious, and, like publicans and sinners, have talked about Chinese labour, but we make broad our phylacteries, and thinking the Bill in favour of the interests of the

  1693
  Empire we positively voted for it." That is what the Opposition has done, and that my right hon. Friend says distinguishes it from all previous Oppositions. But now, Sir, let us see what reward, or, rather, what absence of reward, this virtuous Opposition, which has been so badly treated, has met with. What is the result? My right hon. Friend positively asserts that they have turned the Budget inside out, and I rather gather from his speech that he is now claiming for himself and his Friends a share in the authorship of the Budget—that they are really the joint authors of the Budget. We now know where to look, at any rate, for its pedigree. Could there be two more inconsequent propositions? First of all my right hon. Friend says: "We are an exceptional and virtuous Opposition. How have we been treated? You have given way to almost every one of our arguments and objections on the most vital points." And yet here they stand in the face of the country and say they have been worse treated than any previous Opposition. Let my right hon. Friend go to Bingley Hall or anywhere else and present that case to his fellow-countrymen, and see how they will receive it. For my part I am content to abide by the result. I now pass on to deal with the questions put to me by previous speakers. The hon. Member for Barnard Castle raised the question of the hour of our sittings. I may say that I have a perfectly open mind on that subject, but I think the hon. Member will agree with me when I say that the Government cannot undertake to make a far-reaching change like the one he has suggested unless they are satisfied that it will meet with the general approval of the House. One or two questions have been put to me about the Housing Bill, but on that point I cannot give any positive or definite assurance, although I hope we shall be able to devote two days to it the week after next. That, at any rate, is our present idea.
  Lord ROBERT CECIL: That is in a fortnight.
  The PRIME MINISTER: I mean the week after next, the 30th instant. That, at any rate, is our present intention. With regard to the Coal Mines Bill, which the Leader of the Opposition referred to, he said it was introduced in consequence of an electoral pledge. I do not believe that that statement is accurate, because, so far as I know, my right hon. Friend gave no pledge on the subject. I believe, how-
  1694
  ever, that it is a Bill which is required by the mine-owners as well as by the men; but we shall not press this measure if it meets with anything like serious opposition. I am sanguine enough to think that the measure will meet with general approval. The hon. Member for Marylebone made an interesting speech, which ended by deploring the decadence of this House, and he revelled in the contempt with which he imagines this House and everything connected with it is regarded by the country at large. I do not revel in that contempt, partly because I do not believe in its existence. I take such opportunities as are afforded me of ascertaining what people outside think of our proceedings, and the only sentiment which I find is anything like universal is one of wonder and amazement and sometimes of disgust that the House of Commons should spend so much time doing so little. The statement that the people outside this House think we are being overdriven, and that we are trying to get from the legislative machine a larger output than it is capable of dealing with I believe to be an entirely unfounded charge. What the country really wants is that the House of Commons should really be more efficient and a more rapid instrument for the production of good legislation. Something has been said about the suspension of the Eleven o'Clock Rule; but, as the House is aware, financial business has always been excluded from the operation of this Rule, and there is nothing abnormal in what we have done in this respect. Although we have sat longer during the last few weeks than is customary, the adoption of the Eleven o'Clock Rule as a normal condition of our procedure is a very great reform. With regard to the new form of Closure, we have only had it in operation for a very short time, but I think already it has more than justified its adoption. Applied by an impartial, high-minded Chairman—and we have always been in the habit of having in the Chair men in whose impartial disposition we can place absolute reliance—I believe this new form of Closure, avoiding as it does some of the worst evils of the guillotine, namely, the passing without discussion really serious Amendments, will save the time of the House and improve the quality of its Debates. Once more, I assure the Noble Lord that I do not think we have got to the end, or by any means to the end of these reforms. I am prepared to set up the Committee for which he has asked, and, so far as the Government is con-

  1695
  cerned, and so far as it has any voice in the matter, he will find it is composed almost, if not entirely, of non-official Members, because I think it only right that, whilst a Committee of that kind may have the advantage of hearing official persons as witnesses, its conclusions ought to represent the considered judgment of the rank and file of the private Members. Their suggestions and recommendations would, I believe, carry far more weight if they proceeded from a body so constituted than if there was an undue infusion on it of the official element. I am prepared to set up that Committee, but I do not suppose anyone expects they will make any great progress during the remainder of the Session. The hon. Member for the Montgomery Boroughs (Mr. Rees) asked me about the Places of Worship (Enfranchisement) Bill. I am extremely sorry to sacrifice that. It is a Bill in which I take a personal interest, but, with great reluctance, we have been compelled to throw it overboard, together with a number of other measures which may reappear next Session, and get a better chance.
  Sir F. BANBURY: What about the Temperance (Scotland) Bill?
  The PRIME MINISTER: I was familiar with the facts to which the hon. Baronet called my attention. I am not in the least under any delusion that it is a Bill of a non-controversial kind, nor is it a Bill which we should begin to discuss after 11 o'clock. The object of suspending the Eleven o'Clock Rule is to take for a very short time some of these non-controversial Bills which otherwise have no chance of passing at all. If we do take the Temperance (Scotland) Bill, I hope we shall give proper time to its consideration.
  Lord R. CECIL: Will the right hon. Gentleman say a word about the Bishopric of Sheffield Bill?
  The PRIME MINISTER: It is united in its fortunes with the Places of Worship {Enfranchisement) Bill, to which my hon. Friend (Mr. Rees) referred. They are being played off on the Parliamentary board one against the other; and, unless there is a truce of God between the parties to help forward these particular measures I am afraid I cannot hold out much hope.
  Mr. G. D. KELLEY: I wanted to draw the attention of the Prime Minister to the Building and Engineering Works Bill. I certainly do not think some of the Bills
  1696
  to which reference has been made rank with such importance as that measure, which makes provision for the saving of life. The Government have by their extension of the Workmen's Compensation Act done a good deal in that direction, and I would like to press upon them the desirability of proceeding with this Bill if possible. The next Bill to which I wish to call the right hon. Gentleman's attention is the Checkweighing in Various Industries Bill. If my memory serves me correctly a Bill was brought in by a private Member, and was not proceeded with on account of the Government having made a promise that they would themselves bring in a Bill. That has been done, and I desire to urge upon the Government the desirability of further proceeding with the Bill rather than with some of the Bills which have been mentioned, and which are certainly not of the same importance as the two to which I have referred.
  Mr. STEWART BOWLES: One thing the Prime Minister said with regard to the position of procedure in this House appeared to me to be of very great importance. He said, and I believe he is quite right, that outside the House the most common impression is one of wonder, and even disgust, that the House should talk so much and do so little. He said that what the country wants is a more efficient and a more rapid machine for turning out legislation. I believe that is quite true. The general view of the public of the House of Commons is that of what we call a sausage machine. They think the functions of the House is not that of a debating assembly, but that of turning out so much legislation—good, bad, or indifferent. I believe that is the view taken outside, but is it a view which the right hon. Gentleman himself holds or with which he has any sympathy whatever? That is the important point. If Ministers take that view, I do not in the least see why we should continue, and I do not believe we shall long continue, to have what our ancestors have known as the House of Commons at all. I can see no advantage, and I do not believe anybody can see what advantage there is of bringing Gentlemen from all over the country, men of experience and capacity, to sit here if you are to go on as we have been going on, preventing them from contributing out of their knowledge and experience to the Debate, and if you are to regard them as mere instruments for turning out from the House a certain amount of legislation. If the Prime Minister is right—and I believe he

  1697
  is—that the view held outside is that of a sausage machine, I draw the exact opposite conclusion. It is all the more incumbent upon Members of this House of all parties who believe in the necessity for a House of Commons to stand together and firmly resist, as far as they are able to do so, this continued encroachment upon the liberty of debate in the House. I believe we are all agreed that the situation is really serious. It arises from the enormous and increasing mass of work which this Government, notably, and all Governments more or less, insist upon forcing through the House of Commons. Already this Session there have been 15 Bills passed. This increasing mass of work brings us into a vicious circle. You have an enormous mass of work before the House of Commons. The result is that there is no time, we are told, to deal with it. Legislation is forced through without discussion, with the result that it does not work. You create new grievances. It saves no time in the end, because it creates a fresh situation which.has to be dealt with anew by legislation, and it gives rise to the necessity for more of that gorging of the House with Bills. For my part, I desire, with great respect, to make a suggestion to the Government, which I do not think has been made yet, and which appears to be worthy consideration in all quarters of the House. We are continually being presented with expedients for dealing with the situation as it arises from time to time, and they always take the form of increased restriction of the rights and liberties of private Members. I have sometimes wondered whether we shall not be driven back to what appears to be a sound principle—that of trusting and believing in the good sense and the sense of fairness of the House as a whole. In old days the difficulties of Ministries were just as great as they now are; they had to face violent opposition, long sittings, and prolonged obstruction. But in those times Ministers managed the House; they were forced to do so. No doubt compromise was resorted to, but the House was managed and business was got through. The system by which legislation is now thrust upon the country at large simply creates more grievances; it adds to the trouble, and the House is continually being asked to submit to more restrictions. I am sanguine—it may be because I am inexperienced—that whatever may be thought of the general wisdom of this House, no one can doubt its sense of fairness, and my firm belief is that if some day some Minister came down and
  1698
  declared his trust in the House—if he said: "These are our proposals, and we submit them to the House, and we will remove some of the ropes by which the House of. Commons is bound at this moment," the House will itself show that it will not tolerate mere obstruction and will reassert its own power. I believe it is in the direction of trusting to the good feeling and the sense of fairness of the House itself that the best remedy is to be found. I admit that this course would involve the necessity of dealing with, and meeting, fair criticism, but still that is the direction in which the best solution of the present difficulty is to be found. I am delighted to hear that the Prime Minister, who has at heart the real interests of the House of Commons in this matter, is going to appoint a Committee to inquire into the whole question. I believe that that is an admirable and salutary step, and I thank him for taking it, as I believe it will tend in the direction of securing those rights, liberties, and freedom of Debate which in the past this House has enjoyed, and which I trust it will continue to possess in the future.
  Mr. J. SEDDON: I do not think any Members of this House will blame me for expressing my regret that the Shop Hours Bill is to be dropped. I recognise, as well as any Member of this House, the fact that an enormous mass of business has been brought forward this Session, but I cannot agree with a previous speaker that we have been bored by legislation. Possibly that is because we on these benches have voracious appetites and are, therefore, not easily satisfied. It was a responsible Minister who, last year, promised that the Government would do something for that large mass of workers whom I have the honour to specially represent, but when the Bill was introduced, I recognised that—owing to the Finance Bill and other measures—there was very little hope of its being further proceeded with this Session. Still, on behalf of the shop assistants, I desire to thank the Home Secretary for introducing the Bill, as it will enable its provisions to be discussed, and I trust the Prime Minister will give us a promise that in the next Session—which I do not think it is a far-fetched prophecy to say will be held under the present Administration—this Bill will be given a favourable place in the legislative programme of the Government, and that, thereby, justice will be secured for a very large body of workers in this country.
  Mr. JOHN BRIGG: I wish to express my regret that the Sale of Intoxicating Liquors on Sunday Bill has not been included in the list of measures receiving the favourable consideration of the Government. It has already passed through a number of stages, and I had hopes it would get through another place without practically any objection. I am sorry it has had to share the fate of many other good Bills, and is not included in the programme to be carried through this year.
  Mr. T. F. RICHARDS: I should like to ask the Prime Minister whether he has received a memorial from Members of this House in favour of the Sale of Intoxicating Liquors on Sunday Bill, No. 29, being given an opportunity to be passed through? It is a very minor measure, a very meagre portion, and much less than those who are engaged in the trade care for. They would like the whole day, but this measure limits the time to half what it is now, viz., four hours in London instead of eight and to three hours in the provinces instead of six. I hope the Government will give some consideration to that particular request. Then I should like to ask why the Licensed Premises (Election Days Closing) Bill has also been dropped? I think we should all prefer to come here on
  a sober electorate rather than risk a drunken one, and we shall, at all events, do no harm if we keep the electorate sober on election day. It may not be beneficial to some parties, but all honest men desire that every vote recorded should be a sober vote, and I see no better way of doing this than a Bill of this description.
  Mr. WATT: What is to be the fate of a Bill called the Assurance Bill, which has passed all its stages in another House.
  The PRIME MINISTER: I mentioned it.
  Mr. WATT: I am sorry. I did not hear it.
  Question put, "That, for the remainder of the Session, Government Business be not interrupted under the provisions of any Standing Order regulating the Sittings of the House, and may be entered upon at any hour, though opposed, and have precedence at every Sitting; that, at the conclusion of Government Business each day, Mr. Speaker do adjourn the House without Question put; that on Fridays the House, unless it otherwise resolves, shall at its rising stand adjourned until the following Monday; and that no Motions be made to bring in Bills under Standing Order No. 11."
  The House divided: Ayes, 99; Noes, 27.

  Division No. 485.]

  AYES.

  [2.0 p.m.

  Asquith, Rt. Hon. Herbert Henry

  Gooch, George Peabody (Bath)

  Norman, Sir Henry

  Baker, Joseph A. (Finsbury, E.)

  Griffith, Ellis J.

  O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)

  Balfour, Robert (Lanark)

  Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose)

  Parker, James (Halifax)

  Barnes, G. N.

  Hardy, George A. (Suffolk)

  Partington, Oswald

  Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine

  Harmsworth, R. L. (Caithness-sh.)

  Pointer, J.

  Brigg, John

  Haworth, Arthur A.

  Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H.

  Bright, J. A.

  Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

  Radford, G. H.

  Brooke, Stopford

  Henderson, J. McD. (Aberdeen, W.)

  Rees, J. D.

  Brunner, J. F. L. (Lincs., Leigh)

  Henry, Charles S.

  Richards, T F. (Wolverhampton, W.)

  Buckmaster, Stanley O.

  Herbert, Col. Sir Ivor (Men. S.)

  Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)

  Burns, Rt. Hon. John

  Hobart, Sir Robert

  Robson, Sir William Snowdon

  Byles, William Pollard

  Holt, Richard Durning

  Rowlands, J.

  Carr-Gomm, H. W.

  Hyde, Clarendon G.

  Russell, Rt. Hon. T. W.

  Cleland, J. W.

  Jones, William (Carnarvonshire)

  Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland)

  Collins, Stephen (Lambeth)

  Kekewich, Sir George

  Scarisbrick, Sir T. T. L.

  Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow)

  Kelley, George D.

  Schwann, C. Duncan (Hyde)

  Corbett, C. H. (Sussex, E. Grinstead)

  Lambert, George

  Sears, J. E.

  Cox, Harold

  Lamont, Norman

  Seddon, J.

  Crooks, William

  Lundon, T.

  Simon, John Allsebrook

  Cross, Alexander

  Lupton, Arnold

  Steadman, W. C.

  Dewar, Arthur (Edinburgh, S.)

  Lyell, Charles Henry

  Stewart, Halley (Greenock)

  Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness)

  Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester)

  Sutherland, J. E.

  Erskine, David C.

  Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk Burghs)

  Tennant, H. J. (Berwickshire)

  Esslemont, George Birnie

  Maclean, Donald

  Ure, Rt. Hon. Alexander

  Evans, Sir Samuel T.

  M'Callum, John M.

  Waring, Waiter

  Everett, R. Lacey

  Maddison, Frederick

  Watt, Henry A.

  Falconer, J.

  Mallet, Charles E.

  White, J. Dundas (Dumbartonshire)

  Fenwick, Charles

  Marnham, F. J.

  Whitley, John Henry (Halifax)

  Gibson, J. P.

  Massie, J.

  Williams, Sir Osmond (Merioneth)

  Gill, A. H.

  Montagu, Hon. E. S.

  Wilson, P. W. (St. Pancras, S.)

  Gladstone, Rt. Hon. Herbert John

  Murray, Capt. Hon. A. C. (Kincard.)

  Winfrey, R.

  Glendinning, R. G.

  Myer, Horatio

  Glover, Thomas

  Nichols, George

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Captain Norton and Mr. Fuller.

  Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford

  Nicholson, Charles N. (Doncaster)

  NOES.

  Banbury, Sir Frederick George

  Forster, Henry William

  Randles, Sir John Scurrah

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Gordon, J.

  Renton, Leslie

  Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)

  Guinness, Hon. R. (Haggerston)

  Sloan, Thomas Henry

  Craik, Sir Henry

  Hamilton, Marquess of

  Stanier, Beville

  Dickson, Rt. Hon. C. Scott-

  Hills, J. W.

  Thorne, William (West Ham)

  Doughty, Sir George

  Kimber, Sir Henry

  Tuke, Sir John Batty

  Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

  Lockwood, Rt. Hon. Lt.-Col. A. R.

  Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)

  Du Cros, Arthur

  Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred

  Fell, Arthur

  Morpeth, Viscount

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr. Stewart Bowles and Mr. Rawlinson.

  Fletcher, J. S.

  Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

HOUSE LETTING AND RATING (SCOTLAND) BILL.
Considered as amended (in the Standing Committee).
HOUSE LETTING AND RATING (SCOTLAND) BILL.

  Clause 2.—(Interpretation.)
  In this Act—
  The expression "dwelling-house" means in burghs to which this Act applies without adoption a dwelling-house entered on the valuation roll at a yearly rent or value of twenty-one pounds or under, unless the burgh contained within the police boundaries thereof at the date of the census of nineteen hundred and one a population of fifty thousand or upwards, in which case it means a dwelling-house entered on the valuation roll at a yearly rent or value of twenty-six pounds or under; and means in burghs in which this Act has been adopted a dwelling-house entered on the valuation roll at a yearly rent or value of fifteen pounds or under;
  The expression "assessing authority" includes a town council, a parish council, and every other body entitled to impose an assessment; and
  The expression "assessment" includes all rates, charges, and assessments imposed, assessed, or levied by an assessing authority, the proceeds of which are applicable to public local purposes, and which are leviable in respect of the yearly value of lands and heritages, and includes any sum which, though obtained in the first instance by a precept, certificate, or other instrument requiring payment from some authority or officer, is or can be ultimately raised out of an assessment;
  The expression "magistrate" includes judge of police;
  The expressions "owner" and "occupier" have the meanings assigned to
  1702
  them respectively in the Burgh Police (Scotland) Act, 1892; provided that Section fifty-eight of the Burgh Police (Scotland) Act, 1903 (which limits the obligations of factors), shall apply for the purposes of this Act as if it were herein re-enacted with the substitution of this Act for the Burgh Police Acts specified in the said section.
  Amendment made: "In the first paragraph, after the word "expression" ["The expression dwelling-house"], to insert the word "small."—[The Lord Advocate.]
  Sir F. BANBURY Sir F. BANBURY moved, in the same paragraph, to leave out the word "a" ["in burghs to which this Act applies without adoption a dwelling-house"], to insert the words, "an unfurnished."
  There may be, especially at seaside resorts, a large number of houses which are liable to be let at longer notice than the terms of this Bill would permit, and unless an Amendment of this sort is inserted it would prevent furnished houses being let in the ordinary way. I do not think it would in any way interfere with the intention or spirit of the Bill, and it would do away with a considerable amount of injustice and inconvenience which might be caused to the owners of lodging-houses at watering places who let their houses for short periods, perhaps at longer notice than is given under this Bill.
  The LORD ADVOCATE (Mr. Ure): I cannot accept the Amendment. The valuation roll contains no furnished houses.
  Mr. SCOTT-DICKSON: I hope the right hon. Gentleman will reconsider the matter. Representations have been made by a large number of proprietors of houses in coast towns which are let for short periods in the summer time, and this would really be a hardship. I am certain there are a great many owners of houses who think this will have a disastrous effect on them.
  Mr. NORMAN LAMONT: I desire to associate myself with hon. Members opposite as representing a Constituency which has some of these coast towns. It is true the adoption of the Bill is optional, but as it at present stands, if the Amend-
  Sir F. BANBURY: I beg to move to leave out "twenty-one" ["at a yearly rent or value of twenty-one pounds or under"] and insert "fifteen." If I am fortunate enough to carry this Amendment, I propose to move another later on the effect of which will be to make one uniform scale for all the houses which will be included in this Bill, and to do away with the varying scale which at present exists. I believe I am correct in saying that all the other Bills which have hitherto been introduced had one fixed limit at which the Bill was to come into operation. It would be very difficult to carry out these different alternatives, and I think it would be very much simpler if everyone understood that there was a fixed limit at which the Bill would come into operation. I am
  ment were carried it might be very much more largely adopted.
  Question put, "That the word 'a' stand part of the Clause."
  The House divided: Ayes, 90; Noes, 24.

  Division No. 486.]

  AYES.

  [2.13 p.m.

  Baker, Joseph A. (Finsbury, E.)

  Hardy, George A. (Suffolk)

  Norman, Sir Henry

  Balfour, Robert (Lanark)

  Harmsworth, R. L. (Caithness-shire)

  O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)

  Barnes, G. N.

  Haworth, Arthur A.

  Parker, James (Halifax)

  Brigg, John

  Hazleton, Richard

  Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H.

  Brooke, Stopford

  Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

  Radford, G. H.

  Brunner, J. F. L. (Lancs., Leigh)

  Henderson, J. McD. (Aberdeen, W.)

  Rees, J. D.

  Buckmaster, Stanley O.

  Henry, Charles S.

  Richards, T. F. (Wolverhampton, W.)

  Burns, Rt. Hon. John

  Herbert, Col. Sir Ivor (Mon. S.)

  Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)

  Byles, William Pollard

  Hobart, Sir Robert

  Robson, Sir William Snowdon

  Carr-Gomm, H. W.

  Holt, Richard Durning

  Russell, Rt. Hon. T. W.

  Cleland, J. W.

  Idris, T. H. W.

  Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland)

  Collins, Stephen (Lambeth)

  Jones, William (Carnarvonshire)

  Scarisbrick, Sir T. T. L.

  Corbett, A, Cameron (Glasgow)

  Jowett, F. W.

  Schwann, C. Duncan (Hyde)

  Corbett, C. H. (Sussex, E. Grinstead)

  Kekewich, Sir George

  Sears, J. E.

  Cox, Harold

  Kelley, George D.

  Seddon, J.

  Crooks, William

  Lambert, George

  Simon, John Allsebrook

  Cross, Alexander

  Lundon, T.

  Steadman, W. C.

  Dewar, Arthur (Edinburgh, S.)

  Lupton, Arnold

  Stewart, Halley (Greenock)

  Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness)

  Lyell, Charles Henry

  Sutherland, J. E.

  Erskine, David C.

  Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester)

  Tennant, Sir Edward (Salisbury)

  Esslemont, George Birnie

  Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk Burghs)

  Thorne, William (West Ham)

  Evans, Sir Samuel T.

  Maclean, Donald

  Ure, Rt. Hon. Alexander

  Everett, R. Lacey

  M'Callum, John M.

  Waring, Walter

  Fenwick, Charles

  Marnham, F. J.

  Watt, Henry A.

  Gibson, J. P.

  Mason, A. E. W. ((Coventry)

  White, J. Dundas (Dumbartonshire)

  Gill, A. H.

  Massie, J.

  Williams, Sir Osmond (Merioneth)

  Glendinning, R. G.

  Montagu, Hon. E. S.

  Wilson, P. W. (St. Pancras, S.)

  Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford

  Murray, Capt. Hon. A. C. (Kincard.)

  Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)

  Gooch, George Peabody (Bath)

  Myer, Horatio

  Griffith, Ellis J.

  Nicholls, George

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Captain Norton and Mr. Whitley.

  Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose)

  Nicholson, Charles N (Doncaster)

  NOES.

  Bowles, G. Stewart

  Fletcher, J. S.

  Randles, Sir John Scurrah

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Forster, Henry William

  Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel

  Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)

  Gordon, J.

  Renton, Leslie

  Craik, Sir Henry

  Hamilton, Marquess of

  Sloan, Thomas Henry

  Dickson, Rt. Hon. C. Scott-

  Hills, J. W.

  Stanier, Beville

  Doughty, Sir George

  Kimber, Sir Henry

  Tuke, Sir John Batty

  Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

  Lockwood, Rt. Hon. Lt.-Col. A. R.

  Du Cros, Arthur

  Morpeth, Viscount

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Sir F. Banbury and Mr. Lamont.

  Fell, Arthur

  Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

  given to understand that £21 is too large a limit for dwelling-houses in the burghs to which the Bill applies. The Bill says that a dwelling-house is one with a rental of £21, or under, "unless the burgh contained within the police boundaries thereof at the date of the census of nineteen hundred and one a population of fifty thousand or upwards, in which case it means a dwelling-house entered on the valuation roll at a yearly rent or value of twenty-six pounds or under; and means in burghs in which this Act has been adopted a dwelling-house entered on the valuation roll at a yearly rent or value of fifteen pounds or under." I am informed that if the Bill is left as it now stands nine-tenths of the houses in Glasgow would be included I think it is perfectly impossible

  1705
  to include nine-tenths of the houses of Glasgow in the provisions of this Bill. A memorandum of this proposal has been issued by the Town Clerk of Edinburgh, and I presume he knows as much about it as the Lord Advocate. I presume that he speaks on behalf of the municipal authority of Edinburgh. He is strongly opposed to the limit proposed, and he says he cannot believe that the Lord Advocate is aware of the effect which the Bill, as it stands, will have on Edinburgh. So far as I understand the object of the Bill, I do not think that would be interfered with if my Amendment was carried. The object of the Amendment is to prevent hardship being imposed on working men by requiring them to give long notice if they desire to renew the agreements for continuing in their houses at the end of the year. I understand that a tenant has to give three months' notice, and that he is practically bound for 15 months. [An Hon. MEMBER: "Four months."] Well, that would bind him for 16 months. That would hardly apply in the case of houses with a rental of £26. The majority of these houses are occupied by people of a different class, and they would not be subject to the disadvantage which working men complain of.
  Mr. J. P. GIBSON: I desire very shortly to state the position of Edinburgh in regard to this Amendment. The Bill, as originally introduced, fixed the rental at £15, and the Corporation of Edinburgh petitioned in favour of it. Occupiers in Edinburgh contribute £70,000 per annum to the rates. There is a loss of about 5 per cent. on the collections, which means a sum of £3,500 per annum. If the rental limit is raised to £26, as proposed by Clause 2, and if the commission is fixed at 15 per cent. for the collections—and that I understand is a moderate estimate, looking to the experience in England—the extra cost to the occupiers would be £12,000 per annum. It virtually means an increase of a penny in the pound on occupiers in addition to the present taxation. The limitation to £15 would cover the case of workmen's houses, which is the purpose of the Bill. I think that the views of the ratepayers should be followed rather than those of the landlords and house factors, who are anxious to collect the rates because of the prospect of getting a fair commission by which they will be paid. My experience of both Edinburgh and Glasgow is that
  1706
  the workmen's dwellings are not above £15 rental, and therefore the proposal which it is now sought to amend would be a distinct disadvantage to the local authority without being an advantage to the working classes themselves.
  Mr. G. N. BARNES: I hope that the Lord Advocate will not accept this Amendment, because I believe that the Bill is far better as it stands, as far as the mass of working people in Glasgow who are going to be benefited are concerned. The whole speech of the hon. Member for Edinburgh (Mr. Gibson) is based on a fallacy. The fallacy is that there is going to be a loss on the compounding of the rates. Of course, were the proposal, which comes on later, to increase the amount for the collection of the rates to 25 per cent. to pass, it might become a loss; but we are not going to be so foolish as to pass that Amendment. The compounding is to be carried on with the provision that the sheriff of the district is to fix the amount that is to be given from the rates, and, presumably, the sheriff, being a fair-minded man, accustomed to hear and weigh evidence, will fix the amount of the reduction somewhat in proportion to the loss of the rates, so that there need not be any loss at all if, as I assume he will do, he does his duty. The speech of the hon. Member for the City of London (Sir F. Banbury) was somewhat amusing. It was evident when he started to speak that he knew absolutely nothing about this Bill, and just about as much of the conditions in Scotland. He did not know the population of Dundee. He did not know whether the Bill applied to Dundee or not. He said that if the Bill fixed the amount at £15 it would apply to nine-tenths of the houses in Glasgow. I do not know whether it would or not, and I do not care, because I can assure the House it does not matter. The Bill is to afford relief to classes of tenants not included in the large mass of nine-tenths mentioned by the hon. Member. In Glasgow there are about 140,000 houses; and a large number of the houses, I should say about 40,000 or 50,000, are not let under the conditions mentioned by the hon. Member for the City of London—that is to say, subject to the 12 months' lease and the three or four months' notice. Probably one-quarter to one-third of the houses in Glasgow are now let on weekly or monthly tenancies. Consequently you must exclude all those houses altogether. The Bill does not

  1707
  touch them, and the Bill is intended to apply just to that class of houses that lie between £15 and £26—that is to say, it is meant to apply to the better class of mechanic and those men who want to be free to move from one place to another so as to do away with that immobility existing at present which ties up a man to a particular district for 16 months at a time. In the event of the Amendment being carried it will exclude all those houses. I can assure hon. Members that a very large number of those mechanics are paying anything from £20 to £26 per year, and therefore the Amendment will bar out all these men, and practically destroy the Bill.
  Mr. J. W. CLELAND: I hope that the House will not consent to accept the Amendment of the hon. Member for the City of London. I cordially agree with the remarks of the last speaker (Mr. Barnes). There is a very large number of people in Glasgow and the surrounding districts who suffer hardship from the system at present in operation. I do not
  think, and I say it with all respect, that hon. Members who represent English constituencies quite realise the extraordinary hardship that is caused by the present system of house letting in Scotland, and more particularly among the more respectable classes of artizans in the industrial districts. In reference to the question of compounding and the point that has been mentioned with regard to 15 per cent., I do not think it in the least likely that the sheriff would fix 15 per cent. I very strongly urge hon. Members on both sides to vote against this Amendment, because, after all, this is not a party question. I do not know a single candidate last time who was not asked about it and did not pledge himself in favour of the principle embodied in this Bill, and I appeal to hon. Members not to whittle down the benefits which the Bill proposes to confer on the industrial population.
  Question put, "That 'twenty-one' stand part of the Bill."
  The House divided: Ayes, 86; Noes, 20.

  Division No. 487.]

  AYES.

  [2.35 a.m.

  Balfour, Robert (Lanark)

  Harmsworth, R. L. (Caithness-shire)

  Norman, Sir Henry

  Barnes, G. N.

  Haworth, Arthur A.

  O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W.)

  Bright, J. A.

  Hazleton, Richard

  O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)

  Brooke, Stopford

  Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

  Parker, James (Halifax)

  Brunner, J. F. L. (Lancs., Leigh)

  Henderson, J. McD. (Aberdeen, W.)

  Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H.

  Buckmaster, Stanley O.

  Henry, Charles S.

  Radford, G. H.

  Burns, Rt. Hon, John

  Herbert, Col. Sir Ivor (Mon. S.)

  Rees, J. D.

  Byles, William Pollard

  Hobart, Sir Robert

  Richards, T. F. (Wolverhampton, W.)

  Carr-Gomm, H. W.

  Holt, Richard Durning

  Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)

  Cleland, J. W.

  Idris, T. H. W.

  Russell, Rt. Hon. T. W.

  Collins, Stephen (Lambeth)

  Jones, William (Carnarvonshire)

  Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland)

  Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow)

  Jowett, F. W.

  Scarisbrick, Sir T. T. L.

  Corbett, C. H. (Sussex, E, Grinstead)

  Kekewich, Sir George

  Schwann, C. Duncan (Hyde)

  Cox, Harold

  Kelley, George D.

  Seddon, J.

  Crooks, William

  Lambert, George

  Steadman, W. C.

  Cross, Alexander

  Lamont, Norman

  Stewart, Halley (Greenock)

  Dewar, Arthur (Edinburgh, S.)

  Lundon, T.

  Sutherland, J. E.

  Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness)

  Lupton, Arnold

  Thorne, William (West Ham)

  Erskine, David C.

  Lyell, Charles Henry

  Ure, Rt. Hon. Alexander

  Esslemont, George Birnie

  Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester)

  Walters, John Tudor

  Evans, Sir Samuel T.

  Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk Burghs)

  Waring, Walter

  Everett, R. Lacey

  Maclean, Donald

  Watt, Henry A.

  Fenwick, Charles

  M'Callum, John M.

  White, J. Dundas (Dumbartonshire)

  Foster, Rt. Hon. Sir Walter

  Marnham, F. J.

  Williams, Sir Osmond (Merioneth)

  Gill, A. H.

  Mason, A. E. W. (Coventry)

  Wilson, P. W. (St. Pancras, S.)

  Glendinning, R. G.

  Montagu, Hon. E. S.

  Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)

  Gooch, George Peabody (Bath)

  Murray, Capt. Hon. A. C. (Kincard.)

  Griffith, Ellis J.

  Myer, Horatio

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr. Joseph Pease and Captain Norton.

  Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose)

  Nicholls, George

  Hardy, George A. (Suffolk)

  Nicholson, Charles N. (Doncaster)

  NOES.

  Arkwright, John Stanhope

  Forster, Henry William

  Randles, Sir John Scurrah

  Bowles, G. Stewart

  Gordon, J.

  Sloan, Thomas Henry

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Hamilton, Marquess of

  Stanier, Beville

  Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)

  Hills, J. W.

  Tuke, Sir John Batty

  Craik, Sir Henry

  Kimber, Sir Henry

  Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

  Lockwood, Rt. Hon. Lt-Col. A. R.

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Sir F. Banbury and Mr. J. P. Gibson.

  Fell, Arthur

  Morpeth, Viscount

  Fletcher, J. S.

  Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

  Clause 3.—(Exceptions from Provisions of Act.)
  This Act shall not apply to any dwelling-house occupied by the owner thereof, or in which the owner resides, or to any dwelling-house used as an inn or hotel, or to any dwelling-house let along with land for agricultural, pastoral, or horticultural purposes, or to any dwelling-house let in conjunction with a shop, workshop, stable, byre, or the like; nor shall it apply to any dwelling-house let under any contract or lease.
  Mr. HENRY A. WATT Mr. HENRY A. WATT moved to insert after the word "stable" the word "or."
  In connection with this and a further Amendment, it has been pointed out to me by writers to the Signet in Edinburgh that there is indefiniteness about the words "or the like," which, by my next Amendment, I propose to leave out. I defy the ingenuity of even Members of the Front Bench to tell us what they mean.
  Mr. URE: I accept the Amendments.
  Question, "That the word 'or' be there inserted," put, and agreed to.
  Further Amendments made: To leave out the words, "or thelike."—[Mr. Watt.]
  To add at the end of the Clause the words, "current at the date of the passing of this Act."—[Mr. Ure.]

  Clause 4.—(Time Limit to Missives.)
  No agreement, whether verbal or written, for the let of a dwelling-house shall be binding if the same has been made more than one month prior to the date of entry to such dwelling-house.
  Sir F. BANBURY Sir F. BANBURY moved to omit the Clause. The effect of it would be to hamper enterprise in business. The Clause had "two" in it when it came before the House, and that was struck out and "one" inserted in Committee. I should be content not to press this to a Division if the Lord-Advocate would give me any assurance that on any subsequent Amendment "two" would be accepted.
  Mr. URE: I will myself move it subsequently.
  Motion, by leave, withdrawn.
  Amendment made: After the word "a" ["of a dwelling-house"] to insert the word "small."—[Mr. Ure.]
  Mr. URE Mr. URE moved to leave out the words "one month" ["more than one month"], and to insert the words "two months."
  Mr. BARNES: I regret that this Amendment has been put forward by the Lord Advocate, because the Committee gave this very full consideration, and adopted one month instead of two. The Committee thought one month was quite sufficient to enable the landlord and everybody else to look around and get things settled.
  Mr. URE: The reason is not to make Clause 4 run counter to Clause 6.
  Sir HENRY CRAIK: Before we pass from this Clause, may I say that the Lord Advocate might give instructions to his draftsmen to make the rule intelligible to any reader. What has the time limit to do with "Time limit to missives"? We are always told we have nothing to do with these rulings. I did, as a matter of fact, call attention to this in Committee. It has not been put right. I hope the Lord Advocate will be able to tell us that he will be able to get his draftsman to make the Bill intelligible to the ordinary reader.
  Amendment agreed to.

  Clause 5.—(Lawful Date for Termination of Let.)
  Notwithstanding the date of entry to any dwelling-house all lets of dwelling-houses, except those for a shorter period than one month, shall terminate only on the twenty-eighth day of a month, or when that day is a Sunday, on the Monday next following, and all lets of dwelling-houses for a shorter period than one month shall terminate on a Monday.
  Amendments made: After the word "of" ["all lets of dwelling-houses"] to insert the word "small."—[Mr. Ure.]
  After the word "of" ["all lets of dwelling-houses for a shorter period"] insert the word "small."—[Mr. Ure.]

  Clause 6.—(Notice to Terminate Tenancy.)
  Either the owner or the occupier may give notice of removal with a view to terminate any tenancy of a dwelling-house on the day upon which the next payment of rent falls due, or if that day is not a lawful date for the termination of a let

  1711
  under this Act, on the lawful date next following the said day, provided that—

  (a) If the house be let for a period of more than three months the notice shall be given at least forty days before the said lawful date; and

  (b) If the house be let for a period of three months or less the notice shall be given as many days before the said lawful date as shall be equivalent to at least one-third of the said period; except in the case of a let for a shorter period than one month, in which case the notice shall be given at least five days before the said lawful date.

  Amendment made: After the word "a" ["tenancy of a dwelling-house"] insert the word "small."—[Mr. Ure.]

  Clause 7.—(Actions of Removing.)
  It shall be competent to raise any action of removing in respect of, or for ejection from, any dwelling-house in the burgh police court, in which court the same procedure shall be competent as in the sheriff court in respect thereof: Provided that this section shall only apply in burghs where at the passing of this Act the sheriff court is the only court having jurisdiction within the burgh in respect of such actions.
  Amendment made: After the word "any" ["any dwelling-house"] insert the word "small."—[Mr. Ure.]

  Clause 8.—(Notice of Removal.)
  Notice of removal from a dwelling-house may be given by messenger-at-arms or sheriff officer, or other competent officer of court, or by registered letter signed by the owner or by the law agent or factor of such owner, posted at any post office within, the United Kingdom in time to admit of its being delivered at the address theron prior to or on the last date upon which by this Act such notice of removal must be given, addressed to the person entitled to receive such notice, and bearing the particular address of such person at the time, if the same be known, or if the same be not known, then at the last known address of such person, in terms of the Sheriffs' Courts (Scotland) Act, 1907.
  Amendment made: After the word "a" ["a dwelling-house"] insert the word "small."—[Mr. Ure.]
  Mr. URE Mr. URE moved to leave out the words "the owner, or by the law agent or factor of such owner," and to insert the words "or on behalf of the owner or occupier."
  Mr. WATT: May I ask why the Lord Advocate has brought in the occupier? In Committee occupier was left out.
  Mr. URE: The words were not struck out in Committee. Under Clause 6 either the owner or the occupier may give notice of removal; therefore, in providing machinery, we must provide not merely for the owner, but also for the occupier.
  Amendment agreed to.

  Clause 9.—(Removal of Occupier in Arrear with Rent.)
  Notwithstanding anything hereinbefore contained, if the occupier of a dwelling-house shall be in arrear with the rent of the same for a period of seven days, the owner shall be entitled to give forty-eight hours' notice of removal to such occupier.
  Amendment made: After the word "a" ["a dwelling-house"] to insert the word "small."—[Mr. Ure.]

  Clause 10.—(Summary Application for Removing.)
  If any occupier shall fail to remove from a dwelling-house upon the expiration of notice of removal in terms of this Act, any person authorised by law to pursue an action of removing may present to the sheriff or magistrate a summary application for removing, and a decree pronounced on such summary application shall have the full force and effect of a decree of removing and warrant of ejection. The production of a post-office letter registration receipt, or of a certificate from the messenger-at-arms or sheriff officer, or other competent officer of court shall be sufficient evidence of such notice having been duly given. The production of a certificate signed by the owner that the occupier is in arrear with rent for a period of seven days shall be sufficient evidence thereof. For the purposes of this Section and of Section eleven the term "magistrate" shall include any judge of police appointed and acting under Section sixty-two of the Town Councils (Scotland) Act, 1900.
  Amendments made: After the word "a" ["a dwelling-house"] to insert the word "small."
  To leave out the words, "For the purposes of this Section and of Section 11 the term 'magistrate' should include any judge of police appointed and acting under Section 62 of the Town Councils (Scotland) Act, 1900."—[Mr. Ure.]

  CLAUSE 11.—(Delay in Actions of Removing.)
  In an action of summary removing no delay beyond forty-eight hours shall be granted by the sheriff or magistrate to the occupier of a dwelling-house, unless on cause shown (which cause the sheriff or magistrate shall state in his order granting delay), or on caution for, or consignation of, the rent due being found or made as the case may be.
  Amendment made: After the word "a" ["a dwelling-house"] to insert the word "small."—[Mr. Ure.]

  CLAUSE 12.—(Assessments on Dwellings-Houses to be Recovered from Owners.)
  3.0 P.M.
  Every assessing authority entitled to impose assessments in the burgh shall levy all assessments which may by law be properly chargeable upon the occupiers of dwelling-houses on the owners of such dwelling-houses in place of the occupiers thereof (distinguishing always in each assessment the proportion applicable to ownership and the proportion applicable to occupancy), and that notwithstanding the insertion made in the valuation roll in terms of the Lands Valuation (Scotland) Act, 1854, and Acts amending the same, of the names of occupiers of such dwelling-houses: Provided that nothing in this Act shall prejudice or disqualify any person whose name is entered in such valuation roll in respect of his qualifications in virtue of the Representation of the People Act, 1884. And provided further that section thirty-one of the Lands Valuation (Scotland) Act, 1854, and sections three hundred and forty-four, three hundred and forty-five, and three hundred and forty-six of the Burgh Police (Scotland) Act, 1892, and the corresponding sections of any local Act shall not apply to any lands or premises being dwelling-houses to which the provisions of this Act apply.
  Mr. SCOTT-DICKSON Mr. SCOTT-DICKSON moved to leave out the Clause.
  What has taken place in Committee seems to emphasise the objections which were stated on second reading with reference to the proposal for compounding.
  1714
  Clauses 12 to 17 are put in for the purpose of making effective the system of compounding which it is proposed to introduce. The Bill originally applied to houses of a rental of £15 and under, but the amount has now been increased to £26, with the result that, as far as Glasgow is concerned, nine-tenths of the houses will now come within the scope of the Bill. I am told that in Dundee, even as the Bill originally stood, nine-tenths of the houses would be affected, and the number must now be considerably increased. The hon. Member for the Blackfriars Division (Mr. Barnes) said that according to his view the Bill would introduce a change only so far as houses between £15 and £25 rental were concerned. I see, from the statement of the assessor of the City of Glasgow, that the number of houses in that city under £15 rental is, roughly, 124,000. The hon. Member says that those houses would not be affected. I do not know whether that is so or not; but, at any rate, there are not less than 30,000 houses between £15 and £25, so that according to the view of the hon. Member that is the number that would be affected by the Bill. The result will undoubtedly be in Glasgow, as in Edinburgh, that a very large amount of commission will be allowed. The hon. Member for the Bridgeton Division (Mr. Cleland) said that the sheriff would not allow a commission of 15 per cent. It is impossible to say what the sheriff will allow; he will allow what is fair and reasonable. In the past, in Glasgow, in public Bills as well as in Bills promoted by the Corporation, the percentage to be allowed to landlords for collecting the rates has been 20, 20, 25, 15, 25, and 25; so that in the precedents there is nothing below 15 per cent., while the percentage has gone up as high as 25.
  Mr. ALEXANDER CROSS: May I ask whether that does not refer to rentals under £4?
  Mr. SCOTT-DICKSON: I understand not. I believe, however, that in one case, although 20 per cent. is possible, in practice only 7½ per cent. is allowed. According to the town clerk of Edinburgh the result of this system of compounding will be to add 1d. or 1½d. in the £ to the rates. My position is that, in order to remove the grievance complained of, it is quite unnecessary to give effect to these Clauses or that there should be any system of compounding at all. It is quite out of the question to suggest that the collection of the rates at much

  1715
  shorter periods than once or twice in the year could be thoroughly carried out by the borough officials, if the matter were left in their hands, and much more cheaply than it could be done if the matter was put into the hands of the landlords. I object to it because it is a bad principle. The matter has been investigated by several Commissions, Royal and Departmental. So far as I know not a single one has done other than report against the system. The last pronouncement upon the subject was an expression of opinion by the Poor Law Commission. According to their view the principle of compounding—which, of course, has a larger vogue in England than in Scotland—is so bad that every effort should be made to get rid of it. They agree that it cannot be got rid of at once, but their view is that it ought to be got rid of as expeditiously as possible. Here you are not only not getting, rid of the principle, but going to extend it in the large cities, so as to include nine-tenths, more or less, of the ratepayers. I submit that that is a bad thing to do. It is more costly both to the corporation and to the ratepayers. It will result in a heavier burden being placed upon the ratepayers than if the collection was carried out by the officials of the corporation. You are also putting a burden upon the landlords who do not want to discharge the duty, and, I say, ought not to be compelled to discharge it. When it is said that an average can be taken as between the small and large houses, I reply that the owner of both is not one and the same, but often the owner of small houses has small houses only, and that, under those circumstances, it is not an advantage to him. Further as to the practical difficulties, which ought to be kept in view. While this Bill, if passed, will require that agreements should not be made for more than two months before entry of a dwelling-house, and while the occupancy will be made concurrent with the rent collection—the rents are collected monthly, with a month's notice—in point of fact an enormous number of occupiers of houses will continue to occupy them as at present, for six months or a year—although not bound to do so. The difficulty of collecting rates at very much shorter periods has been greatly exaggerated. I quite agree it will be much easier for the officials of the corporation that the landlord should collect them, and then hand the corporation's portion over by a large cheque. But it should be left to the officials of
  1716
  the corporation, whose duty it is. Then it is said that there is a provision in this Bill for notice to be given to the ratepayer by the landlord—of all people in the world—of how much is rent and how much is rates. In Committee upstairs it was practically admitted that these clauses were impracticable. By taking from the tenant—as will happen—exact knowledge of the rates he is paying you deprive him of interest in municipal affairs, and that has in the past led to municipal extravagance. It is put forward as one of the results of this Bill that the ratepayer will not know what he is paying in rates as distinguished from rent. I say that is aggravating the evils of compounding, and is a very good reason why it should be terminated. I am quite sympathetic to the Bill. I want it to pass. But I am quite convinced that to adopt this principle of compounding—particularly now—is to do the best to secure that needed legislation will not follow. Warnings have been given from both sides of the House as to the danger of loading the Bill beyond what it can stand. That is a very serious danger, and I ask the House to take it into account. By Clauses already dealt with to-day we have removed the evil that an agreement made in January or February had the effect of binding the householder for 16 or 17 months afterwards. In my judgment, by introducing this system of compounding on the large scale that it is now being done, we are introducing not only a bad principle, but a principle which, in my judgment, will go a long way towards wrecking this Bill. It is because of this that I beg most respectfully to submit to the House that this principle of compounding should not find a place in the Bill. It is a bad principle, the introduction of which is quite unnecessary. It is costly both to the corporation and the occupier, and probably even to some of the landlords, and if it takes away from the occupiers the necessary interest that they should have in municipal affairs, they will not, as they otherwise would do, take care that the rates are kept as low as possible.
  Mr. J. W. CLELAND: I wish to put before the House in a few sentences the reasons why I think this Clause is absolutely necessary for the efficacious carrying out of what this Bill is intended to do. I listened with great interest to the speech of the right hon. Gentleman who has just sat down, and what struck me most about his speech was the weakness of the alter-

  1717
  native. He objects to the system of compounding, and I could not help wondering why it was that when he was Lord Advocate he did not introduce a Bill to do away with that system. If it is an evil in houses of a certain rental it ought not to be tolerated in houses of a smaller rental. What is the right hon. Gentleman's alternative proposal? That these rates should be collected for the corporation by corporation officials. Has the right hon. Gentleman ever thought what that means? Does he realise the enormous assembly of canvassers and collectors that would mean? How is he to collect the rates from weekly tenants? Does he know of any other place where the collecting of rates are less than quarterly? I respectfully put it to the right hon. Gentleman that while he would destroy the effective machinery of this Bill he places nothing in its place. What is the state of things at the present moment? Let him go and ask the opinions of any assessor of a central authority in Scotland, where they collect the rates once or twice a year, as to the money they have lost owing to the present system. If he does, I venture to think he will be astonished by the figures the assessor will put before him. I quite grant a priori, and from the purely doctrinaire standpoint, it is open to certain objection. I know well that the majority of the Poor Law Commission took that doctrinaire view, but after all you can carry doctrinaire principles too far and ignore practical experience. Against the dictum of the Poor Law Commission I set the dictum of the Departmental Committee set up in Scotland, representative of all parties and interests of diametrically opposite opinions, and I prefer to rest my opinion upon the stronger authority of men who inquired for years into local taxation, and who had for their chairman no less an ornament of the late Government than Lord Balfour of Burleigh. They heard evidence, and what was the decision they arrived at?
  "We say, however desirable in principle it might be to abolish compounding, it is generally agreed that the practical defects of collecting and enforcing payments among a large number of the poorer classes of the large towns, who are weekly tenants and are constantly moving from one tenancy to another, are insuperable."
  I put that calm judicial finding of the Commission against the somewhat heated rhetoric of the right hon. Gentleman opposite. Certain specific statements, however, were made by the right hon. Gentleman, and he gave two London instances where people have given up compounding
  1718
  because, as the right hon. Gentleman alleged, of the inherent viciousness of the system—one was the Peabody Trust buildings and the other was the case of Islington. I think the right hon. Gentleman might reasonably complain of those who prepared his brief for not having told him the whole history. You have compounding in Islington at the present, but you pay the owners nothing whatever for doing it. The Act of 1868 differentiates between owners who live on and owners who live off the premises, and the local authority said to the owners of property at Islington, "You are going to collect our rates, but we will give you no percentage whatever." A case arose upon this, and the owners took the local authority to the courts. In the court of first instance it was decided in favour of the owners, but the Court of Appeal decided in favour of the Borough Council, and unfortunately the case went no further. What about the Peabody Trust? Why did they agree to give up compounding? I have the report here, and it states that during the year arrangements were completed through 14 of the estates whereby, through reduction of rents, the tenants were made liable for the payment of the rates to the local authorities on account of insufficient local allowances. But since that they found the new departure was so unsatisfactory in the case of every Peabody estate, with the exception of Tottenham, that they have been only too pleased to go back to the system of compounding. I venture to say that that disposes of the two cases introduced with such a flourish of trumpets by the right hon. Gentleman. As to the probable percentage to be allowed, I am glad the Lord Advocate has had the wisdom and foresight to provide that the amount of that shall be fixed by some impartial judicial tribunal. I think it is one of the evils of the system in England that the local elected body has so much to do with regard to matters of percentage, I do not think my Scottish colleagues who have not had the fortune to sit on an English local body know that there are two scales of compounding. The scale under the Act of 1868 provides that failing agreement with the owners of property, the figure should be 15 per cent., and where they did come to an agreement they would pay the agreed percentage on the sum collected. It is quite true to say that the allowances in many cases go up beyond 15 per cent., and the reason is that in those cases the landlords are held responsible and pay the rates for

  1719
  empty houses as well as occupied houses. I do not think the allowances fixed for places like Glasgow would probably be more than 7½, or, at the outside, 8 per cent., and I have been told that overtures have been already made to the Corporation that certain landlords would be willing to collect the rates and pay them to the corporation at a less figure. But the figure is to be fixed, by an impartial tribunal, and I am perfectly sure that the decision the sheriff will arrive at will be in the best interests of tenants and landlords alike. There is one great advantage with regard to the compounding system, and it is that it is very much less of a strain on the poor man to pay a little every week or every month than it is to pay the whole amount in one lump at the end of 12 months or twice a year. I am told that the effect of compounding would be to make working men spendthrifts, and they would cease to exercise a proper control over their public representatives. It was my bad fortune to pass through the last London County Council election as an unsuccessful candidate, and although the compounding system is in vogue in London, I may say that I never passed through an election in which the question of the rates bulked half so large as it did on that occasion. No doubt the hon. Baronet opposite (Sir F. Banbury) recollects the poster which had reference to money and rates, but I venture to say that what the right hon. Gentleman the Member for the Central Division of Glasgow said with regard to this thing being impractical, and that the landlord would finally end by exacting a lump sum, was not quite accurate. There is nothing impractical in the landlord publishing a fair statement of his rent and rates. The County Council, with regard to the Caledonian-road buildings and a lot of other cases, do it, and there is no difficulty in it. I am sorry to have detained the House at such length, but I have done so because I have had some slight practical experience from the point of view of rate-fixing and rate-collecting authorities, and that is the reason why I have ventured to put before the House certain considerations which may lead hon. Members to the conclusion that there is something to be said for this system of compounding.
  Sir F. BANBURY: I have much pleasure in supporting the Amendment of my right hon. Friend to omit this Clause. I may say that I have not in any way been con-
  1720
  verted by the eloquent speech of the hon. Member opposite (Mr. Cleland), and I hope to be able to show that in many of the statements he has made he has been misled by his desire to see this system, which apparently he views with so much favour, inserted in the Bill. Whether this system be good or bad, the chief reason why I object to it is that it has nothing whatever to do with the object of this Bill. I remember a great number of Bills of this character which have been introduced—I think the hon. Member for the Camlachie Division was responsible for the introduction of the first and second Bill on this subject which was introduced in this House. I believe I am right in saying that of all the numerous Bills introduced with this object in view only a few of them have attempted to deal with this question of compounding. The real object of those Bills was to alter the system upon which houses were let in Scotch counties, and compounding has nothing whatever to do with that question. Compounding has nothing to do with the manner of letting houses in Scotland, and it is introducing a system which has proved bad in England, and which a vast majority of the people who have studied the question at all consider to be an extremely bad system, which has led to numerous abuses in England, and especially in London. I gather that the hon. Member for the Bridgeton Division contested unsuccessfully an election for the London County Council, and he has expressed the opinion that the question of the rates had a considerable influence on that election. I quite agree with him; but amongst which class? It was not so much among the class who pay the rates directly as among the working classes who up to that time had been under the impression that they were not interested, and owing to that indifference great extravagances had been committed by the London County Council and the borough councils. I understood the hon. Member to say that the Report of the Royal Commission on this subject was not a practical one.
  Mr. CLELAND: I said it was a doctrinaire Report.
  Sir F. BANBURY: Though that Report in theory might be very good, in practice it is very bad. The Royal Commission were unanimously of the opinion that
  "it was most desirable that all classes of the community should, as far as possible, be made liable for the personal payment of rates in order that they may appreciate directly the effect of economical or extravagant administration."

  1721
  That seems to me to be a very practical and business-like statement; and what it amounts to is that unless a man has to put his hand into his pocket and pay directly a certain sum he does not really feel that there is any necessity for economy or for insisting that the people who put their hands in his pocket shall take as little out as possible. I think the hon. Member opposite challenged my right hon. Friend (Mr. Scott Dickson) to produce a single case where the system of compounding had not resulted in an advantage to the occupier.
  Mr. CLELAND: I did not say that. I asked if the right hon. Gentleman had gone to the trouble of getting from the assessment authorities in Scotland the amount lost under the present system of collecting the rates once a year.
  Sir F. BANBURY: I do not wish to misrepresent the hon. Gentleman. The memorandum put into my hands by the town clerk of Edinburgh says:—
  "If the rate is collected through the landlord it may be that there will practically be no arrears. That, of course, is from the point of view of the municipality. No doubt they would be saved a certain amount of trouble for which they would otherwise have to pay. To that extent the system under the Bill would relieve the occupier who paid in full. The amount of the Commission will certainly exceed considerably the amount of the present arrears."
  Therefore, the opinion of the town clerk of Edinburgh is practically opposite to the opinion expressed by the hon. Member opposite. The town clerk of Edinburgh thinks that under the system inaugurated in this Bill that the loss to the occupier will considerably exceed the commission which will have to be paid, and it will be greater than the arrears under the new system. I have some difficulty in understanding what is the state of things with regard to the arrears. It is said that the present arrears are less than 5 per cent., but it is assumed that the commission will be 15 per cent. It is admitted that under the Act of 1867 and 1868 the amount fixed is 15 per cent., and that on various occasions the amount has gone up to 25 per cent.
  Mr. CLELAND: That is so, failing agreement.
  Sir F. BANBURY: There is no doubt a great many landlords are anxious to make agreements, because it saves them a certain amount of trouble. They hope that by collecting the rates themselves and receiving the commission they will gain a little bit. I do not blame them in the
  1722
  least, but that does not touch the principle that the occupier should feel the responsibility of paying the rates himself. I know that in England attempts have been made by landlords to combine together, actuated by the motive that it is right the tenant should pay the rates, but the agents told them that other landlords would not combine, and that the consequence would be they would find their tenants would soon go to the landlords who paid the rates, and their houses would be empty. That is why there has not been any great outcry against the present system. The town clerk said that, supposing the commission was 15 per cent., it would be an excess of 10 per cent. on the present losses in arrears. That puts a burden upon the occupier of £7,000 a year, and to that must be added the corresponding sum applicable to the poor, the school, and the water rates. That would bring the amount up to at least £13,000 per year, which is more than a penny rate in the £. He goes on to say that is a very serious new burden to place upon the occupiers in Edinburgh, and he asks what is the supposed compensating advantage which can justify such an imposition. The outstanding fact is that the Edinburgh occupiers are being mulcted to the extent of £13,000 per annum in order to pay to the landlords a commission they do not want. According to this Gentleman, we have the extraordinary sight of the Lord Advocate, who has been going about the country denouncing the landlords, and the Radical party proposing to pay £13,000 a year to landlords, who do not want it. The hon. Gentleman said that the tenant could be easily informed by the landlord what the amount of the rate would be, but the rate is collected once a year in Scotland, and as houses are let from May to May and the rate is levied in October, all the landlord will be able to tell the occupier will be what the rate of last year was, and the occupier will probably have to pay, not upon what the rate really is, but upon what it was. Unless I am wrong, you are imposing an impossible task upon the landlord and doing everything to encourage discontent and disagreement between occupier and landlord. The landlord will tell the occupier the rate of last year, and, if the occupier finds the present year's rate has been reduced, he will think he is being defrauded by the landlord, and bad blood will result. It may be right or it may be wrong to introduce a system of compounding—I think it is extremely wrong—but it cannot be right to introduce it in a Bill

  1723
  which has nothing to do with the subject. This Clause is also an enfranchising Clause. I am informed it is going to put 20,000 new voters on the list in Glasgow. If, as I venture to say, a rate-compounding clause should not be introduced in a Bill dealing with the period for which houses are let in Glasgow, still less should an enfranchising clause be introduced in it. It would have been very much more candid on the part of the Government if they had brought in a Bill dealing with elections in Scotland. There is no reason why they should not have done so; they have brought in a Bill dealing with elections in London. We should then have known what we were discussing, but now an English Member who does not know all the intricacies of Scotch Bills cannot be expected to know there is an enfranchising clause in this Bill. I venture to say there are not 20 English Members, certainly not on this side of the House, who know this fact. For that reason, because I believe a very important change is being introduced in the franchise of Scotland by this Clause, I shall vote against it.
  Mr. A. CROSS: The hon. Baronet the Member for the City of London seems concerned because, under this Bill, some persons will pay their full rates who have never paid them before, and will consequently be entitled to obtain the franchise. If a system exists which makes it difficult for certain men to pay their full rates, and if payment of full rates be a qualification for the franchise, surely it is wise and proper to pass a measure by which full payment will be made more easy, and, if that has the effect of increasing the number of voters, I, at all events, shall not regret the circumstances. What we are doing is to place ourselves on all fours with the procedure in England. I do not think, looking at the discrimination of the English electors, the hon. Baronet need be greatly concerned. I know the effect of a broader franchise has not been to increase the Radical benches, but rather to encourage the Conservative element.
  Sir F. BANBURY: I was looking at it from the point of view of principle, and, whether it increases the Radical or the Conservative Members, you have no right to introduce an enfranchising Bill under the guise of altering the terms of letting.
  Mr. CROSS: We do not introduce it as a Franchise Bill. We make no difference in the law what-
  1724
  ever. If it be the law that a man votes because he pays his poor rates under this Bill, we make no change in regard to that. Now I pass to the question of compounding. I regret sincerely that the hon. Member for the Central Division of Glasgow (Mr. Scott Dickson) should have associated himself with this attack on the Bill by a side wind. The landlord interest has done its best to thwart this measure at every stage; it has been unsuccessful in its efforts, and the frontal attack has now been changed to an attack in flank. Compounding is an essential part of a Bill of this nature. I have in my time introduced eight or ten Bills, and on the strength of my experience I declare that the compounding of rates is an essential proposition if you are to carry out the scheme which this Bill has been framed to carry out. Every English authority has, after all, passed through the same process. I should like to read an extract from a letter by Mr. Wodehouse, formerly an accountant at Birkenhead, then at Burnley, and now of Westminster. He states that at Burnley pressure put upon the council was so great that they had to adopt compounding, because people declared they could more easily pay 1s. per week than 50s. a year. At Birkenhead the system of compounding proved the cheaper way of collecting the rates. He (Mr. Woodhouse) did not think any council would willingly go back to direct rate collection. I need only add that in this book will be found evidence by many closely connected with the collection of rates to the effect that they have been driven to compounding as the only solution of the problem of dealing with the taxation on short tenancies. The hon. Member for Bridgeton (Mr. Cleland) quoted the Local Taxation Commission, which, although agreeing on the abstract principle that compounding is not desirable, pointed out that it is the only possible way in which the business can be managed in certain localities. My hon. Friend the Member for Bridgeton suggested that the taxpayer who does not pay his rates directly does not take the same keen interest in public expenditure. But that surely does not apply in the case of Imperial expenditure. The man who only pays indirect taxation, in the shape of duty on tea, spirits and tobacco takes a keen interest in Parliamentary elections, and I suggest the same observation applies to the municipal taxpayer. The system of compounding is not new in Scotland. In the

  1725
  Glasgow Act of 1866 it was allowed in the case of lets under £4; it was also allowed in the case of water rates under £10, while in the Burgh Police Act, 1892, the principle was also embodied. As a matter of fact, landlords are already compounding, although they do not appear to be aware of it. The rates in Scotland are divided into two parts, one being claimed from the landlord and the other from the tenant, and, although the landlord pays one-half, it is actually the tenant who in the end pays it in increased rent. The principle is therefore already established, and we only want to make it perfectly clear to the tenant that it is he who really pays the rates. The system is working smoothly in Scotland, and I may quote a question and answer from the evidence taken by the Committee on this Bill. The witness said: There were three interests concerned—the tenant's, the factor's, and the landlord's. He was asked:—
  "Are any of these dissatisfied with the state of affairs?"
  The answer was:—
  "I never heard a whisper of dissatisfaction."
  I have been making inquiries all over England with a view to ascertaining the effect of compounding, and my experience has been that, except from a theoretical point of view, there is no complaint either by landlord or tenant or factor or middleman. I assert that if compounding is deleted from this Bill the Bill will be destroyed; it will then possess no advantage at all. I sincerely hope that my right hon. Friend the Member for the Central Division will not press his Amendment, as, if it is carried, it will certainly have the effect of defeating the purposes for which the Bill was introduced. I regard this question as essentially a tenants' question. The Bill has been called a Corporation Relief Bill, a Factors' Relief Bill, and a Landlords'
  Relief Bill. As a matter of fact, it is a Tenants' Relief Bill which will rescue him from an antiquated system. The "Glasgow Herald" about a month ago, when this Bill passed its second reading, declared in a leading article that the reform of the house-letting system in Scotland is long overdue, and repeated many of the observations made in this Debate. With all these circumstances before it I hope the House will not regard this as a Tenants' Relief Bill. It is a measure which will assist landlords in the collection of their rent, factors in their work all the year round, and release house-letting from an indefensible system, into which it has fallen, and to which, to my surprise, the landlords so persistently cling. If the Bill is passed the accumulation of arrears, which so frequently grows up, will be swept away, and the house-letting system in busy communities in Scotland will assume the form which it has in busy English communities, and a man will get a house when he wants one, and letting will not be confined to a single fortnight in a year or moving to a single day.
  Mr. URE: I regret to say that I cannot accept this Amendment, and my reasons for not doing so have been so admirably stated by the hon. Member for the Bridgeton Division (Mr. Cleland), and the hon. Member for Camlachie (Mr. Cross), that I think it is unnecessary to add anything. As in the past, so in the future the occupier will pay his share of the rates and we have taken great pains in Clause 17 of this Bill to leave him under no misapprehension on the subject.
  Question put, "That the Clause to the words 'dwelling-houses' ['upon the occupiers of dwelling-houses'], stand part of the Bill."
  The House divided: Ayes, 88; Noes, 20.

  Division No. 488.]

  AYES.

  [4.0 p.m.

  Baker, Joseph A. (Finsbury, E.)

  Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness)

  Harmsworth, R. L. (Caithness-shire)

  Balfour, Robert (Lanark)

  Erskine, David C.

  Haworth, Arthur A.

  Barnard, E. B.

  Esslemont, George Birnie

  Hazieton, Richard

  Barnes, G. N.

  Evans, Sir Samuel T.

  Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

  Bethell, T. R. (Essex, Maldon)

  Everett, R. Lacey

  Henry, Charles S.

  Brunner, J. F. L. (Lancs., Leigh)

  Faber, G. H. (Boston)

  Herbert, Col. Sir Ivor (Mon. S.)

  Buckmaster, Stanley O.

  Falconer, J.

  Hobart, Sir Robert

  Burns, Rt. Hon. John

  Fenwick, Charles

  Idris, T. H. W.

  Byles, William Pollard

  Foster, Rt. Hon. Sir Walter

  Jones, William (Carnarvonshire)

  Cleland, J. W.

  Gibson, J. P.

  Jowett, F. W.

  Collins, Stephen (Lambeth)

  Gill, A. H.

  Kekewich, Sir George

  Cooper, G. J.

  Gladstone, Rt. Hon. Herbert John

  Kelley, George D.

  Corbett, C. H. (Sussex, E. Grinstead)

  Glendinning, R. G.

  Laidlaw, Robert

  Crooks, William

  Griffith, Ellis J.

  Lyell, Charles Henry

  Cross, Alexander

  Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose)

  Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester)

  Dewar, Arthur (Edinburgh, S.)

  Hardy, George A. (Suffolk)

  Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk Burghs)

  Mackarness, Frederic C.

  Parker, James (Halifax)

  Tennant, H. J. (Berwickshire)

  M'Callum, John M.

  Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H.

  Thorne, William (West Ham)

  M'Micking, Major G.

  Radford, G. H.

  Ure, Rt. Hon. Alexander

  Mallet, Charles E.

  Rees, J. D.

  Waring, Walter

  Marnham, F. J.

  Richards, T. F. (Wolverhampton, W.)

  Watt, Henry A.

  Mason, A. E. W. (Coventry)

  Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)

  White, J. Dundas (Dumbartonshire)

  Montagu, Hon. E. S.

  Russell, Rt. Hon. T. W.

  Whitley, John Henry (Halifax)

  Myer, Horatio

  Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland)

  Williams, Sir Osmond (Merioneth)

  Nicholls, George

  Schwann, C. Duncan (Hyde)

  Wilson, Hon. G. G. (Hull, W.)

  Nicholson, Charles N. (Doncaster)

  Sears, J. E.

  Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)

  O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W.)

  Seddon, J.

  O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)

  Sloan, Thomas Henry

  O'Grady, J.

  Steadman, W. C.

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Captain Norton and Mr. Fuller.

  O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.)

  Stewart, Halley (Greenock)

  O'Malley, William

  Sutherland, J. E.

  NOES.

  Banbury, Sir Frederick George

  Fell, Arthur

  Randies, Sir John Scurrah

  Bowles, G. Stewart

  Fletcher, J. S.

  Remnant, James Farquharson

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Gretton, John

  Ronaldshay, Earl of

  Cecil, Lord R. (Marylebone, E.)

  Hermon-Hodge, Sir Robert

  Tuke, Sir John Batty

  Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)

  Hills, J. W

  Craik, Sir Henry

  Lamont, Norman

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr. H. W. Forster and the Marquess of Hamilton.

  Dickson, Rt. Hon. C. Scott

  Mildmay, Francis Bingham

  Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

  Morpeth, Viscount

  Question, "That the word proposed to be left out stand part of the Clause," put, and agreed to.

  Amendments made: After the word "of" ["the occupiers of dwelling-houses"], to insert the word "small."
  After the words "dwelling-houses," to insert the words "or which, though assessable in respect of occupancy of such dwelling-houses, are by law recoverable from owners."
  To leave out the word "sections" ["and sections three hundred and forty-four"], and to insert the word "section."
  To leave out the words "three hundred and forty-five and three hundred and forty-six."
  To leave out the word "sections" ["and the corresponding sections"], and to insert the word "section."—[Mr. Ure.]

  CLAUSE 13.—(Compounding Allowances to Owners.)
  Every assessing authority as aforesaid entitled to impose assessments in the burgh, shall allow to owners deductions from such assesments as may by law be properly chargeable upon occupiers of dwelling-houses and are by this Act leviable on owners thereof, to cover cost of collection and risk of loss, on such scale, or where expedient on such varying scales, as shall be fixed by the sheriff, after hearing parties, on the petition of any such authority, and such assessments after deduction shall be recoverable from such owners, along with any penalty which may have become exigible thereon, in the same manner as provided for under existing Acts with respect to the recovery of assess-
  1728
  ments from owners. The decision of the sheriff shall be final. The non-payment by an owner of any such assessment shall not affect the right of any occupier of the dwelling-house in respect of which the assessment has not been paid by the owner to be registered as a voter or to vote at any Parliamentary or other election. Owners shall have relief against occupiers of dwelling-houses for the full amount of such assessments, without deduction, if and in so far as such assessment may by law be properly chargeable upon such occupiers, but such assessments shall only be recoverable by such owners from the occupiers along with payments of rent, as such payments are fixed by the terms of let, and shall be paid by the occupiers only in amounts proportionate to the period for which rent is paid: Provided that such owners shall have the same claims and remedies for recovery from the occupiers of assessments and rent, as for the recovery of rent alone.
  Amendment made: To leave out the words "such assessments as may by law be properly chargeable upon occupiers of dwelling-houses, and are by this Act leviable on owners thereof," and to insert "all assessments levied in terms of the immediately preceding section."—[Mr. Ure.]
  Mr. WATT Mr. WATT moved, after the word "be" ["as shall be fixed by the sheriff"], to insert the words "failing agreement."
  The effect of this Amendment will be, of course, to enable the two authorities, without going before the sheriff to fix rates of collection, an opportunity of coming to an agreement. The Commission which sat

  1729
  on this question in Scotland suggested that the parties should have an opportunity of coming to an agreement, and I am surprised that the Lord Advocate, who is well known to be of a peaceable and non-litigious disposition, should prevent the parties from having this opportunity of fixing among themselves the percentage which will govern the collection of these rates.
  Mr. G. B. ESSLEMONT: I beg to second the Amendment.
  Mr. URE: It appears to me that this Amendment would be prejudicial in its effect, and therefore I cannot accept it.
  Amendment negatived.
  Amendment proposed: To leave out the words "hearing parties" ["as shall be fixed by the sheriff, after hearing parties"] and to insert the words "due inquiry."— [Mr. Ure.]
  Mr. SCOTT-DICKSON: I hope that the Lord Advocate will not insist upon inserting the words "due inquiry." There might be what the sheriff would regard as due inquiry without calling the parties before him at all.
  Mr. URE: I have substituted these words in deference to an argument which was used upstairs by the hon. and learned Member for West Edinburgh (Mr. Clyde), who pointed out that the leaving of the words "after hearing parties" in the Clause would be a source of litigation, and of having appeals running through the whole of the courts.
  Amendment agreed to.
  Mr. SCOTT DICKSON: I beg to move to leave out the word "final" ["The decision of the sheriff shall be final"] and to insert the words "shall be subject to appeal at the instance of any owner interested to either division of the Court of Session." I hope the Lord Advocate will see his way to accept this Amendment. It is based on a recommendation in the Report of the Departmental Committee. This question of compounding allowances to owners may involve a considerable amount of money, and I think there ought to be the right of appeal.
  Mr. URE: The right hon. Gentleman is quite right in saying that the Departmental Committee recommended that there should foe the right of appeal, and really I have not a strong view one way or another. I
  1730
  would point out to my right hon. Friend that we have no provision in this Bill for the sheriff hearing parties and keeping a note of the evidence. It is impossible to bring questions like these before an appellate court for trial, where you have no note of the evidence taken before the court of first instance. I would recommend my right hon. Friend not to press the Amendment, because it would necessitate a number of new provisions for taking notes of evidence before there could be an appeal.
  Mr. CROSS: This is a matter of legal procedure, and the questions which will arise should not require prolonged litigation. The sheriff will be called on in his public and responsible capacity, and I am quite sure that the confidence of my right hon. Friend the Member for Central Glasgow (Mr. Scott-Dickson) in him will be shared by almost everyone. The sheriff is an impartial and competent authority to settle matters, and there should be no further power to enter into litigous proceedings. I might further point out that an appeal is allowed in the course of five years.
  Sir F. BANBURY Sir F. BANBURY moved in Clause 13, after the word "election"["Parliamentary or other election"], to insert the words "Provided that any occupier who shall have failed before the twentieth day of June in any year to pay to the owner of any dwelling-house occupied by him during the year ending on the fifteenth day of May preceding any assessment which such owner was entitled to recover from him during the currency of that year under the provisions of this Act, or who shall have been exempted from payment of any burgh rate during the currency of that year, shall ipso facto be disqualified from being registered as a voter or to vote at any Parliamentary or other election. It shall be the duty of every owner to whom any occupier shall have failed to pay any assessment as aforesaid, on or before the thirtieth day of June in each year, to forward to the collector of the assessing authority a statement of the names and addresses of all such defaulting occupiers, and the collector shall, along with a list of the occupiers who have been exempted from payment of any assessment during the currency of that year, forthwith: forward such statement to the assessor, who shall proceed

  1731
  in the manner directed by Section twenty-eight of the Town Councils (Scotland) Act, 1900."
  The object of the Amendment is plain on the face of it; that is to say, that the old system in Scotland shall continue, that where an occupier has not paid his rates he shall be disfranchised. If the Lord Advocate will accept this Amendment there would be nothing to prevent him next year bringing in a franchise Bill for Scotland if he desires. The Amendment would not interfere in any way with the new provisions as to house-letting in Scotland or the question of compounding of rates. All it would do is to leave in the position in which it now is the question of the franchise in burghs in Scotland. I would appeal to the Lord Advocate to accept this Amendment. I am sure that he does not mean to introduce a franchise clause into this Bill, and if the other objects of this Bill are attained, I think that he might not object to this Amendment.
  Sir HENRY CRAIK: I beg to second the Amendment. I think that it goes even further than the hon. Baronet has indicated. It is to secure that a compounder who has not paid his rates shall be brought into the same position as one who is rated in his own name and does not pay his rates. Why should a compounder be made specially privileged and not deprived of the franchise when he does not pay, when a man who is rated in his own name and fails to pay is disfranchised?
  Mr. URE: It is because we desire that this Bill should not be a franchise Bill that we cannot accept this Amendment.
  Lord ROBERT CECIL: I should like to know whether my hon. Friends are right or wrong in saying that the effect of this
  would be that a compounder will be entitled to vote, though he does not pay his rates?
  Mr. URE: The rates are paid, that is quite clear.
  Lord ROBERT CECIL: As I understand my hon. Friend that is not clear. The rates are paid by the landlord, and if the compounding ratepayer does not pay the landlord he will never be disfranchised The compounding ratepayer, under this Amendment, if he did not pay the landlord, would not be entitled to the franchise.
  Mr. SCOTT-DICKSON: This Amendment merely proposes that where the landlord has paid the rates, and the occupier has not paid the landlord, the occupier shall not be entitled to the vote.
  Mr. URE: We leave the law exactly as it stands.
  Mr. A. CROSS: The franchise law passed in 1832 was that all householders in boroughs who paid an annual rental of £10 were entitled to the vote. Then came the amended law in 1868, that in all boroughs householders were entitled to vote contingent upon payment of the poor rate. But it was an express condition that this should be in addition to, and not in substitution of, the Franchise of 1832, and consequently all persons who occupied houses of over £10 a year were entitled to the franchise, whether they paid the poor rate or whether they did not. Payment of the poor rate only affects those who occupy houses of under £10 annual rent. Therefore, the law in Scotland is left exactly as it was.
  Question put, "That those words be there added."
  The House divided: Ayes, 17; Noes, 80.

  Division No. 489.]

  AYES.

  [4.25 p.m.

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Forster, Henry William

  Randies, Sir John Scurrah

  Cecil, Lord R. (Marylebone, E.)

  Gretton, John

  Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel

  Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)

  Hamilton, Marquess of

  Tuke, Sir John Batty

  Dickson, Rt. Hon. C. Scott-

  Hermon-Hodge, Sir Robert

  Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

  Hills, J. W.

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Sir F. Banbury and Sir H. Cralk.

  Fell, Arthur

  Mildmay, Francis Bingham

  Fletcher, J. S.

  Morpeth, Viscount

  NOES.

  Baker, Joseph A. (Finsbury, E.)

  Burns, Rt. Hon. John

  Corbett, C. H. (Sussex, E. Grinstead)

  Balfour, Robert (Lanark)

  Byles, William Pollard

  Crooks, William

  Barnard, E. B.

  Cleland, J. W.

  Cross, Alexander

  Barnes, G. N.

  Collins, Stephen (Lambeth)

  Dewar, Arthur (Edinburgh, S.)

  Bethell, T. R. (Essex, Maldon)

  Cooper, G. J.

  Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness)

  Brunner, J. F. L, (Lancs., Leigh)

  Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow)

  Erskine, David C

  Esslemont, George Birnie

  Jowett, F. W.

  Rees, J. D.

  Evans, Sir Samuel T.

  Kekewich, Sir George

  Richards, T. F. (Wolverhampton, W.)

  Everett, R. Lacey

  Kelley, George D.

  Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)

  Faber, G. H. (Boston)

  Laidlaw, Robert

  Russell, Rt. Hon. T. W.

  Falconer, J.

  Lament, Norman

  Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland)

  Fenwick, Charles

  Lyell, Charles Henry

  Sears, J. E

  Foster, Rt. Hon. Sir Walter

  Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester)

  Seddon, J.

  Gibson, J. P.

  Mackarness, Frederic C.

  Sloan, Thomas Henry

  Gill, A. H.

  M'Callum, John M.

  Steadman, W. C.

  Glendinning, R. G.

  M'Micking, Major G.

  Stewart, Halley (Greenock)

  Griffith, Ellis J.

  Mallet, Charles E.

  Sutherland, J. E.

  Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose)

  Marnham, F. J.

  Tennant, H. J. (Berwickshire)

  Hardy, George A. (Suffolk)

  Mason, A. E. W. (Coventry)

  Thorne, William (West Ham)

  Harmsworth, R. L. (Caithness-shire)

  Myer, Horatio

  Ure, Rt. Hon. Alexander

  Haworth, Arthur A.

  Nicholls, George

  Waring, Walter

  Hazleton, Richard

  O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)

  Watt, Henry A.

  Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

  O'Grady, J.

  White, J. Dundas (Dumbartonshire)

  Henry, Charles S.

  0 Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.)

  Whitley, John Henry (Halifax)

  Herbert, Col. Sir Ivor (Hon. S.)

  O'Malley, William

  Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)

  Hobart, Sir Robert

  Parker, James (Halifax)

  Hyde, Clarendon G.

  Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H.

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Captain Norton and Mr. Fuller.

  Idris, T. H. W.

  Pullar, Sir Robert

  Amendment made: To leave out the words "if and in so far as such assessments may by law be properly chargeable upon such occupiers."—[Mr. Ure.]

  CLAUSE 15.—(Repayment of Assessments Paid in Respect of Unlet Dwelling-houses.)
  Notwithstanding the payment by the owner, in terms of this Act, of assessments in respect of the occupancy of a dwelling-house, if any dwelling-house in respect of which such payment has been made shall not be let for the whole period for which assessments have been paid, the owner shall, upon lodging, on or before dates to be fixed by the respective assessing authorities, with the clerk to any such authority, or with such other officer as the assessing authority may appoint for the purpose, a claim therefor, which shall set forth the period or periods during which the dwelling house was not let, and a declaration to the effect that no rent or other consideration was or is to be paid or given for such period or periods, be entitled to repayment from such authority of the proportionate amount of such assessments for the said period or periods, and if in such claim or in connection therewith the owner presenting the claim makes or causes to be made any false statement knowing the same to be false he shall be liable to a penalty not exceeding fifty pounds.
  Amendment made: To leave out from the word "periods" ["assessment for the said period or periods "] to the end of the Clause, and to insert the words, "Provided that in the case of any small dwelling-house appearing in the valuation roll as unlet it shall be the duty of the owner, on receipt of a requisition from an assessing authority, forthwith to furnish the said authority with a return containing parti-
  1734
  culars of any period or periods during which such dwelling-house has been let, and the owner shall be liable to pay the proportionate amount of assessments for the said period or periods as if the said dwelling-house had not appeared in the valuation roll as unlet.
  Any owner knowingly making or causing to be made any false statement in or in connection with any claim or return under this Section, or failing to make any such return, shall be liable to a penalty not exceeding fifty pounds."—[Mr. Ure.]

  CLAUSE 16.—(Saving for Remission of Assess- ments.)
  Nothing in this Act shall be construed as depriving any assessing authority of any power vested in it to remit in whole or part the payment of any assessments on the ground of poverty or inability to pay; and upon production by an occupier of a certificate of such remission in respect of any dwelling-house granted by an assessing authority the owner of the dwelling-house shall be bound to allow due deductions therefor from any payments of rent and assessments falling due during the period to which the certificate applies.
  Notwithstanding any such remission the owner shall pay to the assessing authority the assessments leviable in respect of the dwelling-house as if no such remission had been made, but shall at such periods as the authority may prescribe send to the clerk to such authority or to such other officer as the authority may appoint for the purpose, a statement of the amounts so paid which he has not recovered from occupiers to whom remission has been granted, and shall be entitled to repayment forthwith from such authority of all sums which he

  1735
  has not recovered in respect of such remission, and if any such owner shall present or cause to be presented any false statement knowing the same to be false in any of the particulars thereof he shall be liable to a penalty not exceeding fifty pounds.
  Amendment made: After the word "any" ["any dwelling-house"], to insert the word "small."—[Mr. Ure.]

  CLAUSE 17.—(Notices of Assessments to Occupiers.)
  Every owner shall deliver to the occupier of a dwelling-house at the beginning of an occupancy a receipt book, rent book, or certificate stating the amount payable in name of rent and assessments to the owner, and indicating separately on the basis of the last assessments for the time being the proportion thereof payable in name of asessments: Provided that it shall be the duty of an assessing authority on application by the occupier to send him a notice of the assessment properly chargeable in respect of occupancy of the dwelling-house.
  Every owner shall be bound, whenever a dwelling-house which has been entered on the valuation roll as unlet shall have been subsequently let, to give intimation forthwith to the collector of the assessing authority of any let of such dwelling-house, and of the name and occupation of the tenant, and the rent, and the period of let. In the event of any owner failing to comply with this provision, or making any intimation under this provision, knowing the same to be false in any essential thereof, he shall be liable to a penalty not exceeding fifty pounds for each such failure or false intimation.
  Amendments made: After "a" ["a dwelling-house"] to insert the word "small."
  To leave out from the words "every owner shall be bound" to the words "false intimation "(inclusive).—[Mr. Ure.]

  CLAUSE 18.—(Exemptions from Hypothec.)
  All bedding material as well as all tools and implements of trade used or to be used by the occupier of a dwelling-house or any member of his family, as the means of his, her, or their livelihood, which are in the dwelling-house, and furniture and plenishing in a dwelling-house to the value according to the sheriff officer's inventory, of ten pounds, shall be wholly exempt from the right of hypothec of the landlord.
  Amendments made: After the word "a" [" a dwelling-house"] to insert the word "small."
  After the word "a" ["a dwelling-house"], to insert the word "small."—[Mr. Ure.]

  CLAUSE 19.—(Adoption of Act.)
  Save as hereinafter mentioned this Act shall apply from and after the twenty-eighth day of May, nineteen hundred and ten, to all dwelling-houses within the police boundaries of every Royal, Parliamentary, and police burgh in Scotland, provided that this Act shall not come into operation in any such burgh which, at the date of the census of nineteen hundred and one, contained within the police boundaries thereof a population not exceeding ten thousand, until it has been adopted by a Resolution of the town council of such burgh, at a meeting called for the purpose at any time after the passing of this Act, after one month's previous notice in a newspaper published or circulating in the burgh.
  Such resolution shall be intimated to the Secretary for Scotland and published in the "Edinburgh Gazette," and shall come into force as from the twenty-eighth day of May immediately following such publication.
  Amendment made: After the word "all" ["all dwelling-houses"], to insert the word "small."—[Mr. Ure.]
  Sir F. BANBURY Sir F. BANBURY moved, after the word "burgh"["circulating in the burgh"], to insert the words "and the adoption of this Act may be similarly rescinded." This is a proposal to allow burghs, if they find they have made a mistake in adopting the Act, to rescind it. If a burgh adopts the Act voluntarily, surely the natural sequence is that the burgesses may, if they think well, rescind it?
  Mr. T. L. CORBETT: I second the Amendment, which is a small one. The word "small" is one that the Lord Advocate is very fond of. I think he will admit that this is a very fair and reasonable and small Amendment.
  Mr. URE: I cannot agree to insert these words. The view of the Government is that a small burgh of 10,000 inhabitants or under ought to consider well before it adopts this Act. Once it has adopted it, that decision must be irrevocable.
  Mr. WATT: The small burghs which have the option of bringing themselves under this Act ought to have the option, if they find they have made a mistake, of rescinding their resolution. It should not be like the laws of the Medes and Persians—irrevocable.
  Lord ROBERT CECIL: I always thought that the Scotch people were a righting race, but no English Member would be content to be treated in the way the Lord Advocate treats the Scottish Members. He has given no reasons at all for his refusal. He says: "The Government have decided; the Government says this or that"—generally in a sentence, and then he sits down again. That may be good enough for Scotland; it may be the way its Members are accustomed to be treated; but if the Lord Advocate thinks that that
  Motion made and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read the third time."—[Mr. Ure.]
  Mr. SCOTT-DICKSON: I do not propose to divide the House against the third reading. I only desire to renew the protest I have already made against the Compound-
  kind of manner is suited to Members generally, he may find out that his Bills do not pass so easily.
  Sir HENRY CRAIK: As representing a small Scottish minority on these benches, I cordially support the words of my Noble Friend. The attitude of the Lord Advocate has been in strong contrast to that which he showed upstairs. He has not deigned to give us any reasons whatever. He says: "That is our decision, and you must accept it," or "The law is so-and-so, and that, therefore, is the reason"—as on this Amendment. I strongly protest against our having no argument but the ipse dixit of the Lord Advocate.
  Question put, "That those words be there inserted."
  The House divided: Ayes, 20; Noes, 73.

  Division No. 490.]

  AYES.

  [4.40 p.m.

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Gretton, John

  Randles, Sir John Scurrah

  Cecil, Lord R. (Marylebone, E.)

  Guinness, Hon. R. (Haggerston)

  Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel

  Corbett, T. L.

  Hamilton, Marquess of

  Tuke, Sir John Batty

  Dickson, Rt. Hon. C. Scott-

  Hermon-Hodge, Sir Robert

  Watt, Henry A.

  Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

  Hills, J. W.

  Fell, Arthur

  Lamont, Norman

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Sir F. Banbury and Sir H. Craik.

  Fletcher, F. S.

  Mildmay, Francis Bingham

  Forster, Henry William

  Morpeth, Viscount

  NOES.

  Baker, Joseph A. (Finsbury, E.)

  Gill, A. H.

  O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)

  Balfour, Robert (Lanark)

  Glendinning, R. G.

  O'Grady, J.

  Barnard, E. B.

  Griffith, Ellis J.

  O'Malley, William

  Barnes, G. N.

  Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose)

  Parker, James (Halifax)

  Bethell, T. R. (Essex, Maldon)

  Hardy, George A. (Suffolk)

  Rees, J D.

  Brunner, J. F. L. (Lancs., Leigh)

  Harmsworth, R. L. (Caithness-sh.)

  Richards, T. F. (Wolverhampton, W.)

  Bryce, J. Annan

  Haworth, Arthur A.

  Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)

  Burns, Rt. Hon. John

  Hazleton, Richard

  Russell, Rt. Hon. T. W.

  Byles. William Pollard

  Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

  Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland)

  Cleland, G. W.

  Henry, Charles S.

  Sears, J. E.

  Collins, Stephen (Lambeth)

  Herbert, Colonel Sir Ivor (Mon., S.)

  Seddon, J.

  Cooper, G. J.

  Hobart, Sir Robert

  Sloan, Thomas Henry

  Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow)

  Hyde, Clarendon G.

  Steadman, W. C.

  Corbett, C. H. (Sussex, E. Grinstead)

  Idris, T. H. W.

  Stewart, Halley (Greenock)

  Crooks, William

  Jowett, F. W.

  Sutherland, J. E.

  Cross, Alexander

  Kekewich, Sir George

  Tennant, H. J. (Berwickshire)

  Dewar, Arthur (Edinburgh, S.)

  Kelley, George D.

  Thorne, William (West Ham)

  Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness)

  Laidlaw, Robert

  Ure, Rt. Hon. Alexander

  Erskine, David C.

  Mackarness, Frederic C.

  Waring, Walter

  Esslemont, George Birnie

  M'Callum, John M.

  White, J. Dundas (Dumbartonshire)

  Everett, R. Lacey

  M'Micking, Major G.

  Whitley, John Henry (Halifax)

  Faber, G. H. (Boston)

  Mallet, Charles E.

  Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)

  Falconer, J.

  Marnham, F. J.

  Fenwick, Charles

  Myer, Horatio

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Captain Norton and Mr. Fuller.

  Foster, Rt. Hon. Sir Walter

  Nicholls, George

  Gibson, J. P.

  ing Clause, which I consider is an excrescence on this Bill. I have no objection to the other proposals of the Bill, which are designed to remove the evils complained of.
  Question, "That the Bill be now read the third time," put, and agreed to.

TRAWLING IN PROHIBITED AREAS (PREVENTION) BILL.
Lords' Amendments considered, and agreed to.

ELECTRIC LIGHTING ACTS (AMEND- MENT) BILL [Lords].
Order read for consideration of Bill as amended (in the Standing Committee).
New Clause (Prohibiting unauthorised undertakers from competing with statutory undertakers).—[Mr. Scott-Dickson.]
Question, "That this Clause be added to the Bill," put, and agreed to.

ELECTRIC LIGHTING ACTS (AMEND- MENT) BILL [Lords].

  CLAUSE 5.—(Supply of Electricity to Railways, Tramways, and Canals partly Outside Area of Supply.)
  (1) Any local authority, company, or person authorised to supply electricity in any area may, with the consent of the Board of Trade, supply at any point within that area electricity for the purposes of haulage or traction on any railway, tramway, or canal situate partly within and partly without that area, and for the purposes of lighting vehicles and vessels used on any such railway, tramway, or canal; but the Board of Trade shall not in any case give any such consent until notice of the application for the consent has been given by advertisement or otherwise in such manner as the Board of Trade may direct, and an opportunity has been given to any person who appears to the Board to be affected of stating any objections he may have thereto.
  (2) The Board of Trade may by Provisional Order authorise any such local authority, company, or person so to supply electricity to be used for purposes incidental to the working or lighting of the railway, tramway, or canal, other than the purposes aforesaid.
  (3) A company, local authority, or body receiving a supply of electricity under this section shall not use the electricity in such manner as to cause or to be likely to cause any interference with Government observatories or laboratories, or observatories or laboratories now or hereafter erected, owned, or managed in pursuance of any present or future statutory enactment, but this sub-section shall not apply to any such company, local authority, or body who by any Art of Parliament or Order con-
  1740
  firmed by or having the effect of an Act of Parliament containing provisions for the protection of such observatories or laboratories are authorised to use electricity for the purposes for which a supply is authorised to be given under this Section.
  Mr. W. THORNE Mr. W. THORNE moved, in Section (1) after the word "canal"["and for the purposes of lighting vehicles and vessels used on any such railway, tramway, or canal"], to insert the words, "and may also, with the consent of the Board of Trade, supply at any point within that area electricity for use at docks situate partly within and partly without that area."
  I move this with a view to obtain an explanation from the Board of Trade. The London Port Authority have already applied to the Borough of West Ham to supply them with electricity for driving some new pumps they are putting down at the Royal Victoria Docks. They have power, under Clause 5, to supply any canal or railway, but not to supply docks. If the Secretary to the Board of Trade, however, would give a broad interpretation of Clause 6, I am under the impression that the local authority would have the power to supply the docks, and, if I can have an assurance on that point, I shall not press my Amendment.
  The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the BOARD of TRADE (Mr. H. J. Tennant): The hon. Member is correct in thinking they would be able to supply under Clause 6; but, even if that would not be so, in the case he has in mind the West Ham Borough Council could supply the Victoria Docks under the existing law. I understand they are partly in East and partly in West Ham. It will be possible, under Clause 18 of the Electric Lighting Act, 1882, to supply them. There is, therefore, no necessity for the Amendment.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

  CLAUSE 6.—(Supply to Premises Outside Area of Supply in Certain Cases.)
  (1) Where it is proved to the satisfaction of the Board of Trade that the occupier of any premises is desirous of obtaining a supply of electricity from any undertakers within whose area of supply those premises are not situate, the Board of Trade may, if the local authority within whose district the premises are situate, and the

  1741
  undertakers (if any) authorised to supply electricity to such premises, consent, by order permit the first-mentioned undertakers to give a supply to those premises on such terms and subject to such conditions as the Board think fit:
  Provided that, if in the opinion of the Board of Trade any consent required by this sub-section is unreasonably withheld, the Board of Trade may proceed as if such consent had been given.
  (2) An Order given by the Board of Trade under this section may for the purpose of enabling a supply to be given thereunder confer any such powers and impose any such duties on the undertakers as would have been conferred or imposed by the Electric Lighting Acts and as might have been conferred or imposed by Provisional Order if the premises and the route along which lines are to be laid for the purpose of giving the supply were within the area of supply of the undertakers, anything in the special Act or Order relating to the undertaking to the contrary notwithstanding.
  (3) If the undertakers on whom powers are conferred by an Order under this section are not a local authority, the works and lines erected and laid under the powers so conferred shall, so long as the Order remains in force, be deemed, for the purposes of the provisions as to purchase applicable to the undertaking, to form part of the undertaking within the district of the local authority which comprises the area of supply of the undertakers, or, if that area is comprised within the districts of more than one local authority, within such of those districts as the Board of Trade may determine.
  Mr. SCOTT DICKSON Mr. SCOTT DICKSON moved, at the end of the Clause, to insert the following new Section:—
  "(4) Nothing in this section shall enable the Board of Trade, without the consent of the undertakers within whose area of supply the premises are situate, to give such permission as aforesaid to any undertakers where the last-mentioned undertakers are by any Act of Parliament specifically prohibited from supplying electricity within the area of the first-mentioned undertakers."
  Mr. H. J. TENNANT: I accept the Amendment.
  Question, "That those words be there added," put, and agreed to.

  CLAUSE 16.—(Power of Undertakers to Pro- vide Electrical Fittings.)
  (1) Where the undertakers are a local authority, they may provide, let for hire, and fix, repair, and remove, but shall not manufacture, lamps, electric lines, fuses, switches, fittings, lamp holders, motors, and other fittings for lighting and motive power, and for all other purposes for which electrical energy can or may be used, and may provide all materials and work necessary or proper in that behalf, and with respect thereto may demand and make such remuneration or rents and charges and make such terms and. conditions as may be agreed upon:
  Provided that—

  (a) The undertakers shall so adjust the charges to be made by them for any such fittings, or for the fixing, repairing, or removal thereof, as to meet any expenditure by them under the powers of this section in connection therewith (including interest upon moneys borrowed for those purposes and all sums applied to Sinking Fund for repayment of moneys so borrowed);

  (b) Every sum charged by the undertakers to a consumer in respect of the provision of such fittings, or the fixing, repairing, or removal thereof, shall be separately stated on every demand note delivered by the undertakers to the consumer;

  (c) The total sums expended and received by the undertakers in connection with the purposes in this section mentioned in each year (including interest and sinking fund) shall be separately, shown in the published accounts of the electricity undertaking of the undertakers for that year;

  (2) Any such fittings as aforesaid let for hire by any undertakers (whether a local authority or not) shall not be subject to distress or to the landlord's remedy for rent, or liable to be taken in execution under process of law or proceedings in bankruptcy against the person in whose possession the same may be: Provided that such fittings are marked or impressed with a sufficient mark or brand indicating the undertakers as the actual owners thereof.
  Sir F. BANBURY Sir F. BANBURY moved to leave out the Clause. I understand the hon. Gentleman will not accept the Amendment I have on the Paper, but will agree to the omission of the Clause.
  Mr. H. J. TENNANT: The Board of Trade accept the Amendment with much regret. They would prefer to have the Clause as it is printed in the Bill.
  Question, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill," put, and negatived.

  CLAUSE 24.—(For the Protection of County Councils.)
  (1) Nothing in any Provisional Order, whether confirmed before or after the passing of this Act, shall in any way limit or affect the powers of any county council to rebuild, alter, widen, or repair the structure of any bridge upon which any work authorised by the Order may be constructed, or impose upon the county council any liability which was not by law imposed upon them prior to the commencement of the Order.
  (2) If at any time the county council require to carry out works for rebuilding, altering, widening, or repairing any bridge which might involve interference with any portion of the undertaking authorised by the Order, they shall, prior to the commencement of the works, give the undertakers one month's notice of their intention to carry out the works, and, if in order to avoid interruption to the supply of electrical energy it is, in the opinion of the county council, necessary temporarily to remove any electric lines or works belonging to the undertakers from such bridge, then the undertakers shall (and they are hereby authorised so to do at their own expense) temporarily carry their electric lines across such bridge overhead or at the side thereof in such a manner as will not be a danger or inconvenience to the public or unreasonably interfere with the works to be carried out by the county council.
  (3) When the rebuilding, altering, widening, or repairing of such bridge has been completed, the undertakers shall have the same rights and powers with regard to such bridge and its approaches as they had before the works were carried out.
  (4) If any dispute arises between the county council and the undertakers with regard to this section, it shall be determined by arbitration.
  Sir F. BANBURY Sir F. BANBURY rose to move at the end of Section (2) to insert the following new section:—
  "Wherever a main road is carried over ft railway bridge maintained by the railway company, all the rights, powers, privileges, and exemptions conferred upon
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  county councils, and the benefit of all obligations imposed upon the undertakers by this section shall, for the purposes of rebuilding, altering, widening, or repairing such bridge, be extended to the railway company, and may be exercised and enjoyed by them as fully as if the railway company were a county council and the bridge were a bridge repairable by such council."
  Mr. H. J. TENNANTproposed to omit the Clause. Before the hon. Gentleman moves, I desire to say, in order to expedite the passage of the Bill, that I wish this Clause to be deleted. I could not accept the Amendment, and I think there might be difficulties with another place. Therefore, in order to expedite and facilitate the passage of the Bill, I move to omit the Clause.
  Question, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill," put, and negatived.

  CLAUSE 25.—(For the Protection of Gas Undertakers.)
  Nothing in this Act shall enable the Board of Trade by Provisional Order to authorise the compulsory acquisition of any land which, at the date of the first publication of the notice for the Order, belongs to any gas undertakers and is used or authorised to be used by them for the purposes of their undertaking.
  Sir F. BANBURY Sir F. BANBURY moved, after the word "gas" ["belongs to any gas undertakers"], to insert the words "or water."
  Mr. H. J. TENNANT: I accept that Amendment.
  Question, "That those words be there inserted," put, and agreed to.

  CLAUSE 26.—(Definitions.)
  In this Act, unless the context otherwise requires:—
  The expression "Provisional Order" means a Provisional Order under the Electric Lighting Acts:
  The expression "Electric Lighting Acts" means:—

  (a) As respects England and Ireland, the Electric Lighting Acts, 1882 and 1888; and

  (b) As respects Scotland, the Electric Lighting Acts, 1882 and 1888, the Electric Lighting (Scotland) Act, 1890, and the Electric Lighting (Scotland) Act, 1902:

  The expression "authorised" means authorised by Act of Parliament or Provisional Order:
  The expression "area of supply" means any area within which any local authority, company, or person is authorised to supply electricity:
  The expression "undertakers" means any local authority, company, or person authorised to supply electricity:
  The expression "road" includes any street as defined by the Electric Lighting Act, 1882:
  The expression "generating station" includes any station for generating, transforming, converting, or distributing electricity:
  The expression "to supply electricity in bulk" means to supply electricity:—

  (a) To any local authority, company, or person authorised to distribute electricity to be used for the purposes of distribution; or

  (b) to any local authority authorised by any general or special Act to undertake or contract for the lighting of streets, bridges, or public places, to be used for the purposes of lighting streets, bridges, and public places.

  Mr. DUNDAS WHITE (for Mr. J. M. Henderson)Mr. DUNDAS WHITE (for Mr. J. M. Henderson) moved, after the word "electricity" ["The expression 'undertakers' means any local authority, company, or person authorised to supply electricity"], to insert the words "to whom the Electric Lighting Acts apply."
  Question, "That those words be there inserted," put, and agreed to."
  Bill read the third time, and passed.

ASSISTANT POSTMASTER-GENERAL BILL.
Question proposed, "That the Bill be read the third time."—[Mr. Whitley.]
Sir F. BANBURY: I object. We have an agreement that no more Bills shall be taken to-night. I have it in my hand. Surely the hon. Gentleman will not persist in his Motion!
Mr. WHITLEY: This was one of the Bills which it was agreed should be taken last night. It was objected to under a misunderstanding. I showed the hon. Baronet at the commencement of business this morning the list of Bills we Were to take, and I understood he agreed to it; I really
1746
think we ought to be allowed to have this third reading.
Sir F. BANBURY: The Paper shown me by the hon. Member was not the final Paper which I have now in my hand and which was agreed to two hours later. As a matter of fact, the hon. Gentleman gave one more Bill last night than he ought to have done. Under these circumstances I do not think he should persist in his Motion.
Mr. WHITLEY: Very well; but we will take it on Monday.
Bill to be read the third time on Monday next (23rd August).

BILLS WITHDRAWN.
  PLACES OF WORSHIP (ENFRANCHISEMENT) BILL.
  Order for Second Reading read and discharged; Bill withdrawn.
  LONDON ELECTRIC SUPPLY BILL.
  Order for Second Reading read and discharged; Bill withdrawn.
  ELECTION OF ALDERMEN IN MUNICIPAL BOROUGHS BILL.
  Order for Second Reading read and discharged; Bill withdrawn.
  ESTABLISHED CHURCH (WALES) BILL.
  Order for Second Reading read and discharged; Bill withdrawn.
  BUILDINGS AND ENGINEERING WORKS BILL.
  Order for Second Reading read and discharged; Bill withdrawn.
  MILK AND DAIRIES BILL.
  Order for Second Reading read and discharged; Bill withdrawn.
  CHECKWEIGHING IN VARIOUS INDUSTRIES BILL.
  Order for Second Reading read and discharged; Bill withdrawn.
  HOUSES OF PARLIAMENT BILL.
  Order for Second Reading read and discharged; Bill withdrawn.

  SHOPS (NO. 2) BILL.
  Order for Second Reading read and discharged; Bill withdrawn.
  At the conclusion of Government Business, Mr. SPEAKER adjourned the House without Question put, in pursuance of the Order made this day.
  Adjourned at Five o'clock, till Monday next, 23rd August.

PETITIONS PRESENTED DURING THE WEEK.
The following Petitions were presented during the week, and ordered to lie upon the Table:—
TUESDAY.
Norfolk Broads and Rivers (Fishing Rights and Encroachments)—Petition from Norwich, for inquiry by a Royal Commission.

WEDNESDAY.
Finance Bill—Petitions against, from Chigwell, Derby (four), Gresford, Hafod Trefnant, Ongar, Oxford, Ruabon (two), and Yeovil.
Finance Bill—Petitions for alteration, from Leeds and London.
Sale of Intoxicating Liquors on Sunday Bill—Petition from Essex, against.

THURSDAY.
Finance Bill—Petition from Lincolnshire, for alteration.
Norfolk Broads and Rivers (Fishing Rights and Encroachments)—Petition from Norfolk and Suffolk, for inquiry by a Royal Commission.
Sale of Intoxicating Liquors on Sunday Bill—Petition from Wolverhampton, in favour.

FRIDAY.
Burial Places (Exemption from Rates) (Scotland) Bill—Petition in favour, from Aberdeen.
Finance Bill—Petitions from Easingwold and Mai ton, for alteration.
House Letting and Rating (Scotland) Bill—Petition for alteration from Glasgow.
Sale of Intoxicating Liquors on Sunday Bill—Two petitions from Birmingham in favour.