Commons Sitting of 6 November 1908

Preamble
The House met at Twelve noon of the Clock.
PRIVATE BILL BUSINESS.

  PRIVATE BILLS (GROUP M).
  Mr. LUKE WHITE reported from the Committee on Group M of Private Bills; That, for the convenience of parties, the Committee had adjourned till Tuesday, 10th November, at Eleven of the Clock.
  Report to lie upon the Table.

PETITIONS.
  LICENSING BILL.
  Petitions in favour: From Amlwch; Blaenllechan; Cottingham; and Llan-fairpwllgwyngyll; to lie upon the Table.
  WOMEN'S ENFRANCHISEMENT BILL.
  Petition from Pontypridd, in favour; to lie upon the Table.
RETURNS, REPORTS, ETC.
  TRADE REPORTS (ANNUAL SERIES).
  Copy presented, of Diplomatic and Consular Reports, Annual Series, No. 4102 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
  CENSUS OF PRODUCTION ACT, 1906.
  Copies presented, of Rules made by the Board of Trade under the Act [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.
  COLONIAL IMPORT DUTIES, 1908.
  Copy presented, of Return relating to the Rates of Import Duties levied upon the Principal and other Articles imported into the British Colonies, Possessions, and Protectorates [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.

  ALIENS ACT, 1905.
  Copy presented, of Return of Alien Passengers brought to the United King-
  1546
  dom from Ports in Europe or within the Mediterranean Sea during the three months ending 30th September, 1908, together with the number of Expulsion Orders made during that period requiring Aliens to leave the United Kingdom [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.

  COMPENSATION FOR INDUSTRIAL DISEASES.
  Copy presented, of Supplementary Report of the Departmental Committee on Compensation for Industrial Diseases; Report, Minutes of Evidence, and Appendix [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
  UNIVERSITIES OF OXFORD AND CAMBRIDGE ACT, 1877 (OXFORD).
  Copy presented, of Statute made by the Governing Body of All Souls College, Oxford, on 4th July, 1908, and sealed on 11th July, 1908, altering and amending Statute III., Clause 7, of the Statutes of the College [by Act]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 318.]
  COLONIAL REPORTS (ANNUAL).
  Copy presented, of Report, No. 582 (Straits Settlements, Annual Report for 1907) [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
  RIFLE ASSOCIATIONS (COLONIES) (GRANTS).
  Return presented, relative thereto [Address 20th May, 1908; Mr. Court-hope]; to lie upon the Table.
  COLONIAL STATISTICS.
  Copy presented, of Statistical Tables relating to British Colonies, Possessions, and Protectorates Part XXXI., for the year 1900 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS CIRCULATED WITH THE VOTES.

  Housing, Town Planning, etc, Bill.
  MR. MUNRO FERGUSON: To ask the Secretary for Scotland whether the Housing and Town Planning, etc., Bill was drafted on the joint responsibility of the English and Scottish Local Government Departments, or whether under the sole auspices of the English authority.

  1547
  (Answered by Mr. Sinclair.) The Local Government Board for Scotland was fully consulted in regard to the drafting of the Bill.

  Staffing of Scottish Government Offices.
  MR. MUNRO FERGUSON: To ask the Secretary for Scotland whether there is any sufficient staff at the Scottish Local Government Board to deal seriously with the inception, or application, of large projects affecting Scottish local administration, such as the Housing and Town Planning Bill; and whether he will now consider the propriety of holding a departmental inquiry into the staffing and working of the Local Government and other Scottish Boards.
  (Answered by Mr. Sinclair.) Existing staff is fully occupied, but provision for administration of Housing Bill and any other measures will be made if necessary by extension of staff or otherwise, as may be arranged by the Treasury. I have no intention of appointing a Departmental Committee to hold an inquiry in the sense proposed by my hon. friend.

  Consular Appointments in British Colonies.
  MR. DU CROS: To ask the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies what steps have been taken in response to the representations of the Colonial Premiers as to the appointment of Consuls and Vice-Consuls in the important towns of New Zealand and other British Colonies; and whether he will furnish a list of all such appointments made during the past eighteen months.
  (Answered by Mr. Churchill.) The following is the list of trade commissioners and trade correspondents of the Commercial Intelligence Branch of the Board of Trade in the Dominions and self-governing Colonies:—
  Canada.
  His Majesty's Trade Commissioner in Canada: Mr. R. Grigg (temporary address), c/o Department of Trade and Commerce, Ottawa, Canada. List of correspondents in Canada of the Commercial Intelligence Branch of His Majesty's Board of Trade: British Columbia, Mr. W. J. Davidson, Vancouver, Mr. J. J. Shallcross, Victoria;
  1548
  Manitoba, Mr. J. Appleton, Winnipeg; New Brunswick, Mr. W. E. Anderson, St. John; Quebec, Mr. G. B. Ramsey, Quebec. The appointment of correspondents at Ottawa, Montreal, Toronto, and Halifax has been deferred pending the Report of His Majesty's Trade Commissioner on the subject. The Board of Trade do not propose to appoint a correspondent at the town in which His Majesty's Trade Commissioner has his permanent headquarters.
  Newfoundland.
  Correspondent in Newfoundland of the Commercial Intelligence Branch of His Majesty's Board of Trade: Mr. H. W. le Mesurier, St. John's.
  South Africa.
  His Majesty's Trade Commissioner in South Africa: Mr. R. Sothern Holland, Cape Town. List of correspondents in South Africa of the Commercial Intelligence Branch of His Majesty's Board of Trade: Cape Colony, Mr. E. J. Cattell, Cape Town, Mr. J. S. Neave, Port Elizabeth; Natal, Mr. A. D. C. Agnew, Durban; Transvaal, Mr. Charles A. C. Tremeer, D.S.O., Johannesburg.
  In addition to the above, the following gentlemen also act in an honorary capacity as correspondents of the Commercial Intelligence Branch: Natal, the Collector of Customs, Durban; Transvaal, Mr. J. W. Honey, C.M.G., Director of Customs, Pretoria; Orange River Colony, the Collector of Customs, Bloemfontein.
  Australia.
  His Majesty's Trade Commissioner in Australia: Mr. C. Hamilton Wickes, (temporary address), c/o Department of Trade and Customs, Melbourne, Australia. List of correspondents in Australia of the Commercial Intelligence Branch of His Majesty's Board of Trade: Victoria, His Majesty's Trade Commissioner will act as correspondent in Victoria; New South Wales, Mr. J. Currie Elles, Sydney; Queensland, Mr. M. Finucan, Brisbane; South Australia, Mr. John Creswell, Adelaide; West Australia, Mr. J. F. Conigrave, Perth; Tasmania, Mr. A. H. Ashbolt, Hobart.
  In addition to the above the following gentlemen also act in an honorary

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  capacity as correspondents of the Commercial Intelligence Branch: Commonwealth, the Comptroller General of Trade and Customs, Melbourne; Victoria, the Secretary to the Premier of Victoria, Melbourne.
  New Zealand.
  His Majesty's Trade Commissioner in New Zealand: Mr. G. H. F. Roheston, Wellington. List of correspondents in New Zealand of the Commercial Intelligence Branch of His Majesty's Board of Trade: Wellington, His Majesty's Trade Commissioner will act as correspondent in Wellington; Dunedin, Mr. Peter Barr, Dunedin; Auckland, Mr. A.J. Denniston, Auckland. In addition to the above the Secretary for Industries and Commerce, Wellington, also acts in an honorary capacity as correspondent of the Commercial Intelligence Branch of the Board of Trade.

  Indian Police Pensions.
  MR. GIBBS: To ask the Under-Secretary of State for India if officers in the Indian police have to serve five years longer for pensions than officers in the same service in England, and do the Government intend to take any action with regard to the proposal of the Police Commission that twenty-five years service shall be the period to qualify for full pension in the Indian police; and whether other services in India are already enjoying this concession.
  (Answered by Mr. Buchanan.) In the absence of medical certificate police officers in India are at liberty to retire on pension after thirty years service, or on attaining the age of fifty-five, whichever is the earlier. In England police officers are as a rule eligible for retirement on pension after twenty-five years service. As the Secretary of State said in his Answer to the hon. Member for Hull (Central Division), on 31st July, 1907, the recommendation of the Indian Police Commission on this subject was fully considered by the Government of India, who decided, to propose no alteration in the existing rules. The Secretary of State does not propose to suggest to them that the question should be reopened. In certain Departments in India retire-
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  ment on pension is permitted after a shorter period of service than in the police.

  Building of H.M.S. "Defence."
  MR. BELLAIBS: To ask the First Lord of the Admiralty on what date were the first consignments received for building the large armoured vessel H.M.S. "Defence" which was laid down on 22nd February, 1905, in one of the royal dockyards; and, in view of the fact that nearly four years has elapsed since the construction of this vessel was commenced and five years since she was designed, whether he can now state when all workmen will be out of her, and the ship take her place in one of the commissioned fleets.
  (Answered by Mr. McKenna.) The first consignments of material for the "Defence" were received, on 16th November, 1904, but material suitable for preparing to build was not received until 3rd December, 1904. It is expected that the ship will be completed by the 31st December, but this date depends upon the completion of certain contract work in connection with her boilers.

  Great Britain, Germany and the United States—Exports and Imports.
  MR. DUNDAS WHITE: To ask the President of the Board of Trade if he can say as regards the United Kingdom, the United States, and Germany, respectively, what were the exports of manufactured goods, the total exports and the total imports for the years 1900 and 1907, respectively; what was the increase in each of those classes for each of these countries during the intervening time; what was the estimated population of each of these countries in the year 1907; and what, on that population basis, was the increase per head for each of these classes in each of these countries during that intervening time.
  (Answered by Mr. Churchill.) The following statement gives the information asked for by my hon. Friend, except that the imports and exports per head of population in 1900 have been given on the basis of the estimated population of that year and not, as suggested in the Question, on the basis of the population in 1907.

  United Kingdom.

  United States.*

  Germany.

  Million pounds.

  Million pounds.

  Million pounds.

  Exports of "Manufactured Articles" (Domestic Produce)

  1900

  228·3

  97·0

  146·6

  1907

  342·0

  156·4

  236·4

  Increase in 1907 over 1900

  113·7

  59·4

  89·8

  Exports of "All Articles" (Domestic Produce)

  1900

  291·2

  304·3

  226·7

  1907

  426·0

  382·2

  336·8

  Increase in 1907 over 1900

  134·8

  77·9

  110·1

  Imports of "All Articles" (for Home Consumption)

  1900

  459·9

  168·3

  283·5

  1907

  553·9

  243·4

  430·0

  Increase in 1907 over 1900

  94·0

  75·1

  146·5

  Estimated Population in

  1900

  41,155,000†

  76,975,000‡

  56,269,000†

  1907

  44,099,000†

  86,617,000‡

  62,332,000†

  £

  s.

  d.

  £

  s.

  d.

  £

  s.

  d.

  Exports of "Manufactured Articles" (Domestic Produce) per head

  1900

  5

  10

  11

  1

  5

  2

  2

  12

  1

  1907

  7

  15

  1

  1

  16

  1

  3

  15

  10

  Increase in 1907 over 1900

  2

  4

  2

  10

  11

  1

  3

  9

  Exports of "All Articles" (Domestic Produce) per head

  1900

  7

  1

  6

  3

  19

  1

  4

  0

  7

  1907

  9

  13

  2

  4

  8

  3

  5

  8

  1

  Increase of 1907 over 1900

  2

  11

  8

  9

  2

  1

  7

  6

  Imports of "All Articles" (for Home Consumption) per head

  1900

  11

  3

  6

  2

  3

  9

  5

  0

  9

  1907

  12

  11

  2

  2

  16

  2

  6

  18

  0

  Increase in 1907 over 1900

  1

  7

  8

  12

  5

  1

  17

  3

  * For years beginning 1st July.

  † Estimated population at middle of year.

  ‡ Estimated population at end of calendar year.

  Old Age Pensions—Calculation of Applicants' Means.
  MR. MORTON: To ask the President of the Local Government Board whether small amounts contributed weekly by children to a parent must count as fixed income under Section 4, subsection (1) (a), of the Old-Age Pensions Act, or whether such contributions can be counted as voluntary gifts.
  (Answered by Mr. Lloyd-George.) The subsection referred to in the Question contains no reference to "fixed income," and, whether or not such contributions as those described by my hon. Friend can properly be counted as voluntary gifts, I see no warrant in the provisions of the section for excluding them from the calculation of the recipient's means for the purposes of the Act.

  Relief of Distress in Belfast.
  MR. GEORGE CLARK: To ask the President of the Local Government Board whether a sum of £3,000 is to be given for the relief of unemployment in Dublin; and whether, in view of the distress at present existing in Belfast, he is prepared to recommend that a similar amount should be given for the relief of unemployment in that city.
  (Answered by Mr. Birrell.) The Answer to the first part of this Question is in the affirmative. A grant of £1,000 has already been made to Belfast, and when this sum has been expended, if the distress committee consider they have a case for a further grant, it is open to them to make representations to the Local Government Board on the subject.

  Contributions by Companies to Political Organisations.
  SIR W. J. COLLINS: To ask the President of the Board of Trade what steps have been taken, or will be taken, with a view to secure that railway and other statutory companies shall not contribute out of their funds to political organisations with a view to influencing elections; and whether any changes have been made in the schedules of accounts rendered by such companies to the Board of
  1554
  Trade whereby disclosure shall be made of any such contributions.
  (Answered by Mr. Churchill.) I would refer my hon. friend to the Answer which I gave on 22nd October to the Question asked on this subject by the noble Lord the Member for Marylebone. A Return giving the particulars mentioned in that Answer was laid upon the Table of the House on the 2nd instant and ordered to be printed.

  London Pension Committee.
  LORD R. CECIL: To ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer under what statutory provision a pension committee in London has been appointed by the county council instead of pension committees by the Metropolitan borough Councils.
  (Answered by Mr. Lloyd-George.) Under the provisions of 8 Edw. VII., c. 40, Section 8 (1), I am advised that the term "borough" in that subsection does not include a "Metropolitan borough" as created by the London Government Act.

  Employment of Quartermasters of the late Royal Engineers Volunteer Corps.
  MR. COURTHOPE: To ask the Secretary of State for War, in view of the fact that a scheme for the employment of quartermasters of the late Royal Engineers Volunteer Corps is under consideration, whether he will issue instructions that the steps which are now being taken to transfer these officers to the unattached list shall be discontinued pending a decision.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Haldane.) According to the existing establishments there is no provision for these officers in the Territorial Force. Any, therefore, who have expressed their desire to transfer their services can only be placed on the unattached list. Only one such application has as yet reached the War Office.

  Messrs. John Stones and the Fair Wages Clause.
  MR. W. T. WILSON: To ask the Secretary of State for War if he is aware that the

  1555
  firms of John Stones, Limited, Ure Mills, Ulverston, and John Stones, of Rosside Works, Ulverston, sliding partition and revolving shutter, etc., manufacturers, who advertise themselves as contractors to the War Department, only pay the joiners in their employ from 6¼d. to 7¼d. per hour, whilst the current rate of wage in the district, vide Board of Trade Returns, is 8d. per hour; whether he will take steps to induce those firms to pay the current rate of wage; failing which, whether he will remove them from the list of firms invited to tender for work ill his Department.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Haldane.) Mr. John Stones is not on the War Office list, but Messrs. John Stones, of Ure Mills, are noted on the list, but do not at present hold any War Office contract. If they should obtain any contract it would contain the usual wages clauses and any allegation of their infringement would be at once investigated.

  Territorial Officers' Decoration.
  MR. TILLETT: To ask the Secretary of State for War whether he can see his way to amend the regulations relating to the award of the Territorial efficiency medals, so as to enable an officer who has served some portion of his qualifying service in the ranks to obtain such medal.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Haldane.) A Territorial officer is awarded a decoration for long and meritorious service, and service in the ranks reckons towards the qualifying service at the rate of half the time so served. The grant of this decoration is published in Army Order 268 of this month.

  Royal College of Surgeons.
  SIR W. J. COLLINS: To ask the Prime Minister whether any further communication has been either received from the Royal College of Surgeons of England by the Lord President of the Council, or addressed to the College by the latter, since the late Prime Minister announced that the Council of the Royal College had declined to fall in with the suggestions of the Government and secure to the members of the College some voice in the management; and whether the
  1556
  Government propose to make any further representations to the Council of the College through the Lord President.
  (Answered by Mr. Asquith.) No further communication has been received from the Royal College of Surgeons, and it is not proposed to repeat representations to which the Council are unwilling to give effect.

  Civil Servants' Deferred Pay.
  MR. COURTHOPE: To ask the Prime Minister whether a Bill will be introduced during the present session to amend the Superannuation Acts in respect of Civil servants' deferred pay, as recommended by the Courtney Commission.
  (Answered by Mr. Asquith.) I hope that the Bill may be introduced next session.

SELECTION (STANDING COMMITTEES).
Sir WILLIAM BRAMPTON GURDON reported from the Committee of Selection: That they had discharged the following Member from Standing Committee A (in respect of the Criminal Appeal (Amendment) [Lords] and of the White Phosphorus Matches Prohibition Bills): Mr. William Harvey; and had appointed in substitution (in respect of the said Bills): Mr. Nicholls.
Sir WILLIAM BRAMPTON GURDON further reported from the Committee: That they had discharged the following Member from Standing Committee C (in respect of the Coal Mines (Eight Hours) (No. 2) Bill): Mr. Solicitor-General; and had appointed in substitution (in respect of the said Bill): Mr. Solicitor-General for Scotland.
Reports to lie upon the Table.

LICENSING BILL—ALLOCATION OF TIME.
SIR EDWARD SASSOONasked the Prime Minister when he would be in a position to state the allocation of time to be given on the Report stage for the consideration of the various modifications in the Licensing Bill foreshadowed during the discussion in Committee, and of the clauses then passed wholly without discussion.
THE PRIME MINISTER AND FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY (Mr. ASQUITH,): I answered that Question yesterday when I said that I hoped the Resolution, would be taken on Wednesday.

LICENSING BILL.
Considered in Committee.
(In the Committee.)
[Mr. EMMOTT (Oldham) in the Chair.]
Clause 41;
THE SOLICITOR-GENERAL (Sir S. EVANS,)moved an Amendment to leave out the words "specially authorised for the purpose by the chief constable." The clause, he said, dealt with the right of inspection of club premises, and a great deal of alarm—quite unnecessary alarm, he thought—had been created on the subject. Fantastic pictures had been drawn as to the entry at any time of the day or night into any part of club premises, even, it had been suggested, into the private rooms of the steward. It was a perfectly grotesque picture, and he was quite sure that no member of the Committee could place his hand over that region where his political conscience was supposed to dwell and say that he believed anything of the kind would happen. They had admitted all along that it was possible that clubs over which inspection ought to be had might spring up, and it had been said freely on the other side that one of the results of this legislation would be to create clubs of that kind. Some explanation was therefore necessary. The only inspection now possible was one by search warrant. It was necessary, in the interests of the clubs themselves, that there should be something less drastic than that for ordinary occasions. It did not frequently happen that circumstances justified extreme measures of that kind, and they had suggested here that a chief constable of police, and any inspector or superintendent of police, or officer of the like or superior rank, should have power at any time to enter and inspect the premises. It had been said that those words did
1558
not put sufficient restrictions upon the power of entry, and a suggestion had been made in various quarters that there should be inspection by some lay inspector, by some official under the Home Office, or Excise officer, or some such person. He thought it would be found in practice that even if it were feasible to appoint such inspectors, the clubs would have more reason to complain of undue interference than they would under the words of the clause. First of all, they could not undertake to appoint inspectors of that sort, nor to place the duty of inspecting the clubs upon the inspectors who now existed. He was astonished the other day to see it suggested by those interested in workmen's clubs that a health inspector or other inspector of a municipal authority should be allowed to go into the club. He should have thought that to invite an inspector of nuisances to go into a club would be very much worse than to invite an inspector of the police. In order further to meet any reasonable fears which might exist in the minds of some Members, he had given notice of an Amendment which followed the one he was now moving, to the effect that the officer before he inspected must have obtained a written authority for the purpose from a justice of the peace having jurisdiction in the place. He thought that would be ample security that the officers would not of their own free will and without any cause at all go into the premises. He did not think this inspection would be frequent, and the existing power to inspect would be found good in itself and would be a deterrent in the matter of bogus clubs. The inspect ion of the police would not be anything like that of a lay inspector, who might say "I have been appointed to this job, and I must go to work," and he might be constantly interfering with the convenience of members. Inasmuch as some inspection was necessary, he thought the Government had carefully restricted the inspection to the persons named in the clause.
Amendment proposed—
"In page 20, line 23, to leave out the words 'specially authorised for the purpose by the chief constable.'"—(Sir S. Evans.)
MR. ARTHUR HENDERSONthought the

1559
Solicitor-General had not quite done justice to those who had been inclined to support the Amendments on the Paper setting up lay inspectors. He did not oppose the Amendment, because those responsible for the Amendments setting up lay inspectors had not moved them. But it ought to be stated to the Committee on their behalf that they had something more than the mere inspection of premises in view. They were exceedingly anxious to keep the tone and standard of club life at as high a level as possible. They thought that if they could get a lay inspector he would not merely walk through the rooms constituting the club, and they had put on the Paper a further Amendment empowering him to inspect all the books and documents, in order that they might ascertain exactly who were the shareholders in any building. They were further anxious to find out whether the club was in some sense "tied," or under an obligation in any form to a single brewery company. Surely, taking these Amendments as a whole, they were doing that which, would have assisted in maintaining as high a standard as possible of club life. As to the point of a lay inspector constantly being "on the job," it did not follow that he would have nothing else to do than looking after clubs. They had had an idea it might have been an excise officer, but if the Solicitor-General thought an excise officer had already too much on his hands, that was a fair answer to their position. Their sole desire was to keep the standard of club life as high as possible.
MR. HART-DAVIESsaid he did not rise in any way to oppose the Amendment. The objection to an inspector in uniform entering a club might be a matter of sentiment, but he thought that it was a kind of sentiment which ought to be respected. At the same time he would have liked a more thorough lay inspector than the hon. Member for Barnard Castle seemed to suggest, one who would be in a position to look into the books and accounts, and he hoped when the Committee came to consider the Amendment on that point later on the Paper, the Government would accept it. He
1560
also hoped that it might be a lay inspector and not a police officer at all. He could not see why an inspector from the Home Office should not be appointed to examine the premises and see how the club was constituted; whether it was a bona fide club; and whether they could not do away with those things in club life which they wished to avoid. However, they felt grateful to the Government for the concessions they had made, especially when the inspector was to be empowered to make the inspection by an order of a justice of the peace.
MR. S. COLLINSspeaking on behalf of the clubs, thanked the Solicitor-General for the concession which he had made so far. But he thought that the Solicitor-General might go a little further and keep the policeman out altogether. That would please the clubs. There was a strong feeling throughout the clubs against a policeman in uniform going into their premises at all. It would be much better if a lay inspector could be appointed, and that might get over the difficulty. The Solicitor-General had said that a lay inspector would be a great nuisance, but he thought he would be welcomed by all well-conducted clubs, the members of which would be pleased to show him how well the clubs were managed, while, on the other hand, he would be a terror to evil-doers in the bogus clubs. As he had said, they were very much obliged for the concession so far, but they would feel still more grateful if the Solicitor-General would go the whole way and keep the policeman out, even with the order from a magistrate, and set up a lay inspector.
MR. EVELYN CECILsaid that if they were to have inspection at all, he entirely agreed with the Solicitor-General that a straightforward police officer was preferable to any other suggestions made in various quarters of the House.
Amendment agreed to.
SIR S. EVANSmoved to insert after the word "shall," the words "if he has obtained a, written authority for the

1561
purpose from a justice of the peace having jurisdiction in the place." He did not want to make any further observations except to call the attention of the Committee to a subsequent Amendment which would make it necessary for the police officer to produce the written authority by which he entered the club. That, he thought, would be an additional safeguard.
Amendment proposed—
"In page 20, line 23, after the word 'shall,' to insert the words 'if he has obtained a written authority for the purpose from a justice of the peace having jurisdiction in the place.'"—(Sir S. Evans.)
Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."
SIR F. BANBURYsaid that the production of a written authority was of very great importance, but he failed to see why it should not be signed by two justices of the peace. The Solicitor-General had talked about justices of the peace who were influenced by a desire to curry favour with the brewers or by other considerations. It might be possible that one justice of the peace would be in collusion with a particular society or a particular firm of brewers—he did not want to make any charge against temperance societies—with regard to the inspection of a club at a particular time. All he would have to do would be to call in some person to give information about a club, and then the particular justice would be on the spot to sign the authority, and the matter would be at an end. He knew from his own experience on the bench that there were many precedents for two justices of the peace having to sign an authority. That being so, he did not see why the Solicitor-General, who had made a certain concession in this direction, should not go further and say that two justices, in stead of one, should sign the authority. There would be no difficulty in getting the signature of two justices, and he hoped that the hon. Members below the Gangway would support him. To put himself in order he begged to move to leave out the words "a justice," and insert the words "two justices."
Amendment proposed to the proposed Amendment—
"In line 2, to leave out the words 'a justice,' in order to insert the words 'two justices.'"—(Sir F. Banbury.)
Question proposed, "That the words 'a justice' stand part of the proposed Amendment."
MR. ARTHUR HENDERSONhoped the Government would not accept this Amendment. They had to recollect that these clubs were growing up very considerably in the country districts. Those Members who represented county divisions knew the extreme difficulty there was at present in finding one magistrate. [An HON. MEMBER: Not at all.] He was giving his own experience. He represented a division thirty-six miles long, and in some parts of his district they had got to go five, six, or seven miles to find one magistrate. It was not very easy for them to get a magistrate appointed; although it might have been easy for his hon. friends above the Gangway to get magistrates appointed when they were in power. The difficulty of securing a magistrate to sign an authority would be very great if an objection against a club was to be lodged. The objector would have to travel not only six miles to find one magistrate, but more than six miles to find two. This Amendment of the right hon. Baronet would reduce the power of objection to a farce, and he sincerely trusted that the Government would stick to their own Amendment.
*SIR J. JARDINEthought that the hon. Member for the City of London was thinking of cases where deliberation ought to take place; but there were many cases where speed was of the essence of justice, and one of these was where there was suspicion as to the proceedings of a club. From personal experience he knew the difficulty of finding even one justice in country districts, for example, to deal with military deserters arrested by a village policeman; and he thought that the proposal as it stood was reasonable, especially when they considered the difficulty of getting two justices except on the days when they met in Petty Sessions.
MR. RICHARDSONsaid he did not oppose the Amendment of the Solicitor-General, but he thought that some weight should be attached to the statement of the hon. Baronet the Member for the City of London. He represented a city in which there was a real danger in relation to clubs. The hon. Member for Roxburghshire said that speed was sometimes the essence of justice; but justice should be the very essence of this Bill, and he was afraid that unless the hon. Baronet's Amendment was carried, sometimes justice would not be done to some of the clubs in the City of Nottingham. In his city they had 1,000 licences, and one brewery owned 160 of them. They had three magistrates who were either directors or trustees for the debenture-holders of the brewery company, and if the Amendment were carried, and it was in the interest of the brewers to close the clubs, it would be very easy for one of those directors or trustees of this particular brewery to sign a warrant ordering the inspection of a club with a view to getting it closed in order that they might be assisted to carry on their business in their licensed houses. If this question was carried to a division he should certainly vote against the Government.
VISCOUNT HELMSLEYthought the Government would do well to accept the Amendment. He could not follow the argument of the hon. Member for Barnard Castle. He represented a large county constituency, and agreed with him that in some cases it was difficult to get hold of magistrates; but, although it might, be difficult for the working-man to do so, he did not think it was in the least degree difficult for the police or the chief constable to find two magistrates, because that was what they had to do in the course of their ordinary duty. When an authority was required, there would be no obstacle to the police officer getting it in any Petty Sessional Court in which magistrates sat very frequently. It would be quite easy for any police constable to get an authorisation from two justices of the pea-e when they were setting. He thought the hon. Member for Barnard Castle overlooked
1564
the fact that it would not be the working man or anybody who was unofficial who would have to get this consent from the magistrates. It would be for the police. He hoped the Government would reconsider their view on this Amendment, because, after all, as the old saying ran: "Two heads are better than one." If they put the duty on two justices they would be less likely to have inspection ordered where it was unnecessary, and they would have a safeguard against one fanatical justice of the peace, who might wish to have this inspection carried out very frequently and who would see to it that such inspection was arranged. The importance of this turned upon the words which came later in the clause, "at any time," because, as he understood it, this authorisation by the justices would not be for a particular entrance by a police constable on a particular day, or at a specified time, but would be a general authorisation, running for a considerable period. If that was the case, he certainly thought the more closely it was safeguarded the better. Therefore, he had great pleasure in supporting the Amendment of his hon. friend.
MR. W. E. HARVEYhoped that the Government, would stand by this clause. It might be that the party opposite were more favourably situated in regard to justices of the peace, because their party had been in power for twenty years, than were the supporters of His Majesty's Government, but in some instances there would be difficulty experienced in country districts in obtaining the signature; of two justices. He would give an illustration. He represented a county constituency, and he had some knowledge of what the difficulty was there, where there was only one magistrate of his own particular persuasion. One was, therefore, inclined to be a little suspicious with regard to this matter. In regard to exemption orders for vaccination, men were put to very great inconvenience in county constituencies, having at a week-end to go three or four miles to get them from magistrates. The clubs' association of the country were satisfied with one magistrate. He, therefore, hoped the Solicitor-General would stand firm in regard to it, in the interest of

1565
rural districts and those large places where it was most difficult to obtain a magistrate. In so doing, the hon. and learned Member would be doing justice to the people.
MR. GOULDINGthanked the Solicitor-General for his Amendment, which was, he thought, undoubtedly a great improvement on the clause as it stood, but he suggested that the hon. and learned Gentleman should go a little further towards meeting the views of the Opposition, and accept the proposal of his hon. friend the Member for the City of London. It was really a most important innovation that the Committee was proceeding to make, viz., to invade the domicile of the individual. Whether it was the case of a single person or of that of a number, certainly where men gathered together under the law of the land they had an absolute right that every security should be taken to prevent intrusion on their domains, except on very well-founded grounds. To his mind the Solicitor-General had gone some way to allay uneasiness in insisting that this intrusion should only take place after permission had been obtained and careful inquiry made by one magistrate; but it was idle to say that in every district they could absolutely rely on the discretion of one magistrate in relation to this great innovation in the amenities of club life. If he wanted, an illustration of this he need not go any further than the statement of the hon. Gentleman opposite that there was only one magistrate in his district of his political persuasion. It was evident that in the hon. Member's district people were inclined to canvass the political persuasions and beliefs of the different magistrates, instead of going to them as men who had to dispense justice irrespective of creed, politics, or any other personal consideration. He was not quite certain, but the Solicitor-General would set him right if he was not accurate, but as he understood it, at the present time, when friendly societies or other bodies or individuals required an extension of hours—required what was called a temporary licence, which was often an off-licence—that application was put down to come on before two magistrates. He had sat for a great number of years for a county constituency,
1566
and he had never known a case yet, where a friendly society desired to get an extension for an evening's entertainment, where they had found a difficulty in coming across the necessary number of magistrates. In spite of what his noble friend said there still seemed to be some misapprehension on the part of the Committee with regard to who was to get these orders. The hon. Member for Derbyshire spoke of the difficulty in finding magistrates by those desiring relief under the vaccination, laws, but it was not the individuals here who had to seek the magistrates, but the paid police officials of the country, and it was and would be part of their ordinary every day duty. It was men who would be brought frequently in contact with the magistrates, and would, therefore, be in a position to have some knowledge of where they were likely to catch or get hold of these individual men. If they were any good as constables or police officers they would know what were the ordinary avocations of these magistrates, and therefore it was all moonshine to say that there would be any difficulty whatever in getting hold of two magistrates to give a written authority. What they ought to do was to safeguard in every way the abuse of this power of intrusion into genuine club's, and that could only be done by saying that there should be more than one head to be consulted, when permission for the intrusion was applied for. His hon. friend below him had suggested a very reasonable Amendment. They were told a great deal about the sparsity of magistrates throughout the country, but he thought that almost the chief occupation of the Lord Chancellor since the Prime Minister came into office had been in increasing the number of magistrates on the bench. The noble and learned Lord had appointed fifty or 100 magistrates, and was still at it. He understood that his whole time was occupied in meeting these hon. gentlemen. [An HON. MEMBER: He has a lot to do.] He dared say he had, and he might keep the party together by these means.
THE CHAIRMANreminded the hon. Member that he was wandering from the Amendment.
MR. GOULDINGsaid he was pointing out that the magistracy had been materially increased, and there were also the ex officio magistrates in each district, who were always, in his experience, to be got at—["Oh."]—for the purpose of obtaining their judicial consideration of applications made to them. These were men having the confidence of the people among whom they lived. He again appealed to the Solicitor-General, to whose courtesy and consideration in the conduct of this Bill everyone would bear testimony, to meet the views of those on that side of the House, and thus save a great deal of difficulty on the consideration of further Amendments. He was in communication with several clubs throughout the country from time to time, but he had not heard from any of the members of those clubs that the written authority of one magistrate would meet their views. All of them detested the idea of a policeman intruding into the domain of their clubs, and he failed to understand how hon. Members who were connected with clubs could say that they would be satisfied with the signature of one magistrate. This was the first time the Solicitor-General's Amendment had been, put down, and if the hon. and learned Gentleman had told the Committee that he had been in communication with all the multitudinous clubs in the country, and found they were all in favour of his proposal, that would be a different matter. The hon. and learned Gentleman might have seen Mr. Hall, of the Working Men's Club and Institute Union, but it was impossible for him to have tested the view of the multitudinous clubs throughout the country. He hoped the hon. and learned Gentleman would accept the Amendment of the hon. Baronet, and thus secure the better working of this clause and prevent that tyranny and espionage which might be carried on under its provisions.
SIR S. EVANSsaid he had listened attentively to the arguments to see on which side the balance lay. The Government was very anxious not to interfere unduly with the rights and liberties of bona fide clubs, and had, therefore, put in the safeguards already accepted, but it was very important not to put any unnecessary difficulty
1568
in the way of a police officer who thought it his duty to go into a club. He therefore thought it should be left to one justice. Justices were not always at home, and there might be a difficulty in finding a second one, and whilst the police officer might be seeking for a second justice to sign his authority the very thing that he had reason to suppose was going on in a particular club might be caused to disappear. It was quite true that he had not had an opportunity of consulting all the multitudinous clubs in the country. The office he held was not a sinecure. There were only twenty-four hours in a day and seven days in a week. He had, however, had an expression of opinion from many Members of the House who were in touch with these clubs. The hon. Baronet had said they required the consent of two magistrates before they could have an "occasional" licence to sell liquor for a temporary purpose, such as a fair, a dance, or something of that sort. That was quite a different matter. That was asking for a licence to sell liquor at a particular place at which there was not a licence, but really he might appeal to the reason of the hon. Baronet and remind him that one justice could grant a search warrant, and that a search warrant not only authorised a police constable to go into premises, but to go in by force, seize papers, and take the names of all the people present.
LORD BALCARRESremarked that he did not like the simile of the Solicitor-General, nor did he think it applied, inasmuch as clubs were not criminals. Of course, the consent of one justice was sufficient for a search-warrant where they had to deal with a criminal, but even then one process was not sufficient. They must first lay the information. One justice only was necessary in the case of a criminal. It seemed to him that the chief objection to two magistrates was lack of convenience. An hon. Member had spoken about the outlandish districts in Derbyshire, where the magistrates lived ten miles apart, and might be absent from their homes on business or pleasure; but these were not districts where these clubs existed. The hon. Member had given the only

1569
pertinent reason against the Amendment from the Liberal point of view which had yet been delivered.
MR. W. E. HARVEYsaid that in his division there had not been a justice appointed during this Parliament.
LORD BALCARRESsaid that that was possibly because one was not wanted or else there was no gentleman sufficiently Radical to make a magistrate. He did not believe there would be any real difficulty in getting the signatures of two magistrates. It would be a guarantee that two men in authority should sanction the intrusion of the police into private and well-conducted clubs.
MR. NUSSEYwas extremely glad the Solicitor-General had proposed this Amendment. It was suggested by hon. Members opposite that the signature of two magistrates should be obtained, but that he thought was not necessary. He would, however, like to know how long it was intended that the permit should last. There was nothing that he could see to prevent a permit being held by the police for two or three months, whilst they lay in wait for the club. He thought such a thing as that ought to be safeguarded against.
MR. COURTHOPEsaid the point just raised was of great importance. The Amendment, he thought, as it stood, should not be made. He hoped some assurance would be given that a permit for an indefinite time would, not be granted. He quite recognised the view of the Government, who wished to secure the supervision of a club whenever it was thought the management required looking into, but everybody would agree that such supervision should be so guarded that it should, not become persecution. They were, therefore, entitled to press for an assurance from the Government that a strict limit of time should be given to the powers under this clause. He did not agree with the hon. Member opposite that there would be a difficulty in getting two magistrates. He sat on a county bench
1570
which met once a month, and there would be no difficulty whatever in getting two magistrates together. No difficulty arose in practice, and whenever it was really required that two magistrates should be got together they were always found. The learned Solicitor-General had said that in the case of occasional licences it was always known some time beforehand that they would be wanted, but that was not always the case. It constantly happened that a sudden demand for an occasional licence arose, and the legislature had thought right that it should not be too easy to obtain it, and had said that two magistrates should be necessary. It often happened that an occasional licence was obtained from two magistrates, and he thought the same thing should apply in the case of a request for a permit to enter a club. It should not be made too easy to obtain. It should be possible, if the police had a strong suspicion that a club was conducted in such a way as to require inspection, for that inspection to take place, but there should be no persecution or annoyance. He was certain that if the hon. Baronet's Amendment was accepted it would not be any check upon the adequate supervision of these clubs, but it would prevent the police running a possible risk of refusal by going on more or less trifling grounds. The learned Solicitor-General must see that it would not in any way prevent, or even make it difficult to obtain the inspection of a club, and it would secure the clubs against anything in the way of frivolous annoyance. He thought the claim set up that the clubs were satisfied with one justice was perfectly preposterous. He had no hesitation whatever in saying that the clubs were not satisfied, and could not be satisfied, with one justice. It was impossible that more than a very small proportion of the clubs could even have been approached on the subject. He doubted whether any had, and even if some secretary of an association of clubs had been approached, and had given his grudging approval, he was sure that opinion did not represent the opinion of the majority of the clubs in the country. They had not been consulted, they did not consent, and he was certain they would not express their approval of this proposal that one justice's authorisation would be sufficient.
*MR. VERNEYsaid it seemed to him that the clause had been rather too widely drafted, and that the net had been cast rather too far. He thought it a very important point that they should know what the words "at any time" meant. He believed it meant at all reasonable hours, but he did not think it was so worded as to define that moaning. There was another matter in which he thought the clause was worded too widely. The chief constable of a county could go into any other county as it was now worded, but he was sure the Government did not mean that. He thought it should be confined to any chief constable of a county or borough in which the club in question was situated.
*THE CHAIRMANsaid they had better not discuss the whole clause now. With regard to the order lasting for any time he had had another Amendment handed in, which he thought it would be convenient to take after the Solicitor-General's Amendment had been disposed of.
*MR. VERNEYsaid the object of everybody in the House was that there should be efficient control when there was a prima facie case of something unlawful going on, but still there should be no humiliation imposed on those clubs which did not deserve it. Having been connected with clubs for very many years, he thought above all things, when anything wrong was going on in a club, that the sooner it was detected the better. The best means of stopping that wrong was for the committee themselves to take the matter up and deal with it, and in this case, no outside inspection would be wanted.
THE CHAIRMAN: The hon. Member is out of order in discussing that.
SIR S. EVANSsaid he would be very sorry to appear to be giving with one hand what another took away. It was never intended that the power to enter should be absolutely indefinite, and he did not think the words carried that meaning, but he was quite willing to make a provision that the authority should
1572
not be an unlimited authority. To make it unlimited would be really to sweep away the safeguards provided already.
*MR. REESsaid there was some difficulty in getting two justices of the peace in other places, without going into the bye-ways of Derbyshire. He would answer for it that in Middlesex, which bench was very largely staffed, the difficulty sometimes occurred perhaps because the magistrates were for the most part men with other occupations and not so often country gentlemen as in other counties. But there was a difficulty in getting two magistrates in Middlesex sometimes, whatever the cause might be, and the fact was relevant to the present Amendment.
SIR F. BANBURYsaid the people who had to get the signatures of the two magistrates were the police, and there could be no difficulty in doing that. Further, he would point out that as far as he knew in the remote country districts, where all this difficulty was to be anticipated, country clubs of this sort did not exist. The great majority of these clubs existed in large towns, and to say that the chief constable or inspector of a large town would have a difficulty in finding two magistrates was absolutely ludicrous. Of course, in any town where there was a stipendiary magistrate his signature would be sufficient.
SIR FRANCIS CHANNINGsaid he would like to remind the Committee that the three Acts dealing with clubs passed by the party opposite, in granting search warrants, granted them on the signature of a single magistrate and also included the words "at any time." He recalled those words for their reflection.
MR. CARLILEsaid the Solicitor-General had given them the best of all grounds for appointing two magistrates, for he had said that while the chief constable was proceeding in search of a second justice the cause of the complaint might be removed. Their desire was to do away with the cause of complaint, and if the addition of one justice to the one

1573
proposed by the Solicitor-General would have the immediate effect, without any further proceedings, of doing away with, the ground of complaint, he thought that was the strongest reason for suggesting that two should be required. In country places clubs did not often exist, and in towns he did not suppose that there would be any difficulty in obtaining the signatures of two magistrates. He did not quite follow the oning of the Solicitor-General, that when the chief constable was seen to visit the office or home of one of the justices, those interested in a club would at once believe that a raid was going to be made upon their premises. If obtaining the signatures of two justices would wipe out the cause of complaint, then by all means let the Committee appoint two justices to sign these permits.
MR. HUNTsaid that if the hon. Baronet went to a division he should certainly support him, because after all, two magistrates were better than one in a matter of this sort; but if the Government thought the working men of the country were going to stand a detective going into their clubs either on the written authority of one or of two justices he could assure them they were mistaken. Somebody had said that clubs had been consulted. He had consulted the clubs in his district, and they were very definite about it; they would have no detective in their clubs.
MR. REMNANTsaid the hon. Baronet opposite had made a point which showed that he apparently did not understand the question they were discussing, for he had remarked that there was only necessity for the signature of one justice for a search warrant in a criminal case.
*SIR FRANCIS CHANNINGsaid the "search warrant" procedure in the three Acts he referred to was solely directed to determining whether the club was so managed and carried on as to constitute a ground for striking it off the register. The procedure was therefore absolutely ad rem to the precise point under discussion.
MR. REMNANTsaid the explanation of the hon. Baronet showed that this subject required a great deal more discussion than it had received. No mention was made in the clause about the signature of a justice, but the moment, he supposed, that pressure was brought to bear on the Government—
SIR S. EVANS: It has had due consideration.
MR. REMNANTsaid that when the Government saw what the effect of the clause would be, namely, unnecessary hardship on the bona-fide clubs, then they gave it due consideration, and proposed that the signature of one justice should be obtained before a club was entered. But the time of entry was the essence of the matter, and it was not likely that an entry would be made without consideration. It must be admitted on all sides, with the number of magistrates appointed to-day, that there would be no difficulty whatever in finding two magistrates to give the necessary signatures. Unless the times of entry were reduced to a very small limit, it seemed to him that the general course of events would necessitate a general permit of the chief constable, or some superior officer, to go into club premises at any time. Speaking as a London Member, he must say that both the clause and the Amendment were most unsatisfactory. Apparently a justice in one part of London might give permission to enter a club in another part of London. To say that in a city like London, and many other great cities throughout the country, it would be difficult to get the signatures of two magistrates to a written permit to enter clubs was really taxing their credulity too far. The hon. Member for Derbyshire had stated that in his division there was only one Radical magistrate, and that it would be absurd to expect to get two signatures. Apparently the inference was that two Radical magistrates would sign the necessary permit. He was sure that the vast majority of hon. Members on both sides of the House were anxious that politics should be left out of the licensing question, and, where it was a question of giving a

1575
permit, he believed the hon. Member himself, keen politician though he was, would be guided by commonsense and the necessities of the case. The Amendment of his hon. friend was a reasonable one, and he hoped that the Government, who professed themselves anxious not to put unnecessary hardships on bona-fide clubs in the way of inquisitorial entries, would accept it. They were all anxious to promote bona - fide clubs, and bona-fide working men's clubs throughout the country ought to be encouraged rather than discouraged. The sooner drinking dens were suppressed the better. It was because he believed that the Amendment of the hon. Baronet was conducive to the end they had in view that he should certainly support him if he went to a division.
COLONEL LOCKWOODin regard to obtaining the signatures of two justices, pointed out that if there was a dangerous lunatic living in a street, it was necessary to obtain a certain number of magistrates' signatures before he could be removed. He thought the number of signatures to be obtained should be two. Surely, if that was the case in reference to the removal of a lunatic, it was not too much to ask that two signatures should be necessary for the examination
of the premises of a club. He thought that a very fair statement of the case, and unless the Government met them, he trusted that his hon. friend would go to a division.
*MR. REES, who rose amid cries of "Divide," protested against the assumption that no Member on that side of the House could usefully address the Committee unless he took it for granted t every publican was a miserable sinner, and every brewer
"A son of Belial
Blown with insolence and wine."
He was only going to ask the Solicitor - General whether, after this discussion, which had been short enough in regard to this serious matter, he would consider if the Government could not differentiate between the case of towns above a certain limit of population, so as to make two justices necessary there, while retaining the original provision of one justice of the peace in regard to country districts. He trusted he had not overstrained the patience of the Committee in making this suggestion.
Question put.
The Committee divided:—Ayes, 155; Noes, 61. (Division List No.: 339.)

AYES.

Acland, Francis Dyke

Cobbold, Felix Thornley

Harcourt, Rt. Hn. L. (Rossendale

Ainsworth, John Stirling

Collins, Stephen (Lambeth)

Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose)

Allen, Charles P. (Stroud)

Collins, Sir Wm. J. (S. Pancras, W.

Hardie, J. Keir (Merthyr Tydvil)

Asquith, Rt. Hn. Herbert Henry

Compton-Rickett, Sir J.

Karmsworth, Cecil B. (Worc'r)

Baker, Joseph A. (Finsbury, E.)

Corbett, C. H. (Sussex, E. Grinst'd

Hart-Davies, T.

Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight

Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.

Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N. E.

Barker, John

Cory, Sir Clifford John

Harwood, George

Barlow, Peery (Bedford)

Cotton, Sir H. J. S.

Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth)

Barnes, G. N.

Curran, Peter Francis

Haworth, Arthur A.

Beale, W. P.

Davies, David (Montgomery Co.

Helme, Norval Watson

Brace, William

Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness)

Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

Branch, James

Duncan, J. H. (York, Otley)

Herbert, Col. Sir Ivor (Mon., S.)

Brigg, John

Erskine, David C.

Herbert, T. Arnold (Wycombe)

Brodie, H. C.

Esslemont, George Birnie

Higham, John Sharp

Brunner, J. F. L. (Lancs., Leigh)

Evans, Sir Samuel T.

Hobart, Sir Robert

Brunner, Rt. Hn. Sir J. T. (Cheshire

Ferens, T. R.

Hodge, John

Bryce, J. Annan

Fuller, John Michael F.

Horniman, Emslie John

Burns, Rt. Hon. John

Fullerton, Hugh

Hudson, Walter

Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas

Gibb, James (Harrow)

Hutton, Alfred Eddison

Byles, William Pollard

Glendinning, R. G.

Jacoby, Sir James Alfred

Cameron, Robert

Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford

Jardine, Sr. J.

Carr-Gomm, H. W.

Gooch, George Peabody (Bath)

Jones, Leif (Appleby)

Cawley, Sir Frederick

Grant, Corrie

Laidlaw, Robert

Channing, Sir Francis Allston

Greenwood, G. (Peterborough)

Lamb, Ernest H. (Rochester)

Clough, William

Gurdon, Rt. Hn. Sir W. Brampton

Lamont, Norman

Layland-Barratt, Sir Francis

Priestley, W. E. B. (Bradford, E.)

Strachey, Sir Edward

Leese, Sir Joseph F. (Accrington

Rainy, A. Rolland

Straus, B. S. (Mile End)

Lupton, Arnold

Rea, Russell (Gloucester)

Summerbell, T.

Luttrell, Hugh Fownes

Rees, J. D.

Sutherland, J. E.

Lyell, Charles Henry

Richards, T. F. (Wolverh'mpt'n

Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)

Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester)

Richardson, A.

Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton)

Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk B'ghs

Ridsdale, E. A.

Toulmin, George

Maclean, Donald

Roberts, Charles N. (Lincoln)

Ure, Alexander

Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.

Roberts, G. H. (Norwich)

Verney, F. W.

M'Callum, John M.

Roberts, Sir J. H. (Denbighs.)

Walters, John Tudor

Mansfield, H. Rendall (Lincoln)

Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside)

Wardle, George J.

Marnham, F. J.

Robinson, S.

Wason, Rt. Hn. E. (Clackmannan

Massie, J.

Robson, Sir William Snowdon

Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney)

Molteno, Percy Alport

Roch, Walter F. (Pembroke)

Waterlow, D. S.

Mond, A.

Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter

Wedgwood, Josiah C.

Montagu, Hon. E. S.

Russell, Rt. Hon. T. W.

White, Sir George (Norfolk)

Murray, Capt. Hn. A. C. (Kincard

Rutherford, V. H. (Brentford)

White, J. Dundas (Dumbart'nsh

Nicholls, George

Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)

White, Luke (York, E. R.)

Norton, Capt. Cecil William

Schwann, C. Duncan (Hyde)

Whitley, John Henry (Halifax)

Nussey, Thomas Willans

Sears, J. E.

Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)

Parker, James (Halifax)

Sinclair, Rt. Hon. John

Wills, Arthur Walters

Paulton, James Mellor

Sloan, Thomas Henry

Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R.)

Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek)

Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie

Winfrey, R.

Pearce, William (Limehouse)

Soares, Ernest J.

Wood, T. M'Kinnon.

Perks, Sir Robert William

Spicer, Sir Albert

Phillips, John (Longford, S.)

Stanley, Hn. A. Lydulph (Chesh.

TELLERS FOR THE AYES—MR.

Pirie, Duncan V.

Steadman, W. C."

Joseph Pease and Mr. Herbert

Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H.

Stewart, Halley (Greenock)

Lewis.

NOES.

Acland-Hood, Rt. Hn. Sir Alex F.

Guinness, Hon. R. (Haggerston)

Ronaldshay, Earl of

Anstruther-Gray, Major

Harrison-Broadley, H. B.

Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert

Balcarres, Lord

Heaton, John Henniker

Seddon, J.

Baldwin, Stanley

Helmsey, Viscount

Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East)

Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (City Lond)

Hill, Sir Clement

Stanier, Beville

Banner, John S. Harmood-

Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield)

Starkey, John R.

Barrie, H. T. (Londonderry, N.

Hunt, Rowland

Stone, Sir Benjamin

Bignold, Sir Arthur

Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm.

Thorne, William (West Ham)

Bowerman, C. W.

Lockwood, Rt. Hn. Lt.-Col. A. R.

Valentia, Viscount

Bowles, G. Stewart

Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham

Walker, Col. W. H. (Lancashire)

Bridgeman, W. Clive

Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Dublin, S)

Walsh, Stephen

Carlile, E. Hildred

Lowe, Sir Francis William

Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent)

Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

Morrison-Bell, Captain

White, Patrick (Meath, North)

Cheetham, John Frederick

Nicholson, Wm. G. (Petersfield)

Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E. R.)

Courthope, G. Loyd

Oddy, John James

Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)

Craik, Sir Henry

O'Grady, J.

Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-

Du Cros, Arthur Philip

Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington

Young, Samuel

Faber, George Denison (York)

Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

Fletcher, J. S.

Randles, Sir John Scurrah

TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Sir

Gibbs, G. A. (Bristol, West)

Remnant, James Farquharson

Frederick Banbury and Mr.

Gooch, Henry Cubitt (Peckham)

Renton, Leslie

Goulding.

Gretton, John

Renwick, George

Question, "That those words be there inserted," put, and agreed to.

*MR. G. D. FABERsaid he frankly confessed that he was in some difficulty in this matter as to the particular form of words that was most appropriate for the object he wished to achieve. The Solicitor-General had been good enough to say he would accept the spirit of the Amendment.
SIR S. EVANS: There is no objection to the form of words.
*MR. G. D. FABERsaid he wished to change "fourteen days" in his tabulated Amendment to "seven days." But the Amendment did not even now altogether meet their desire, which was that the right of entry on the magistrate's authority should be limited to one occasion, and that the police officer should not be allowed to make, say, seven entries within seven days. What they wanted was that there should be one entry within the space of seven days, to see whether the club was or was not being properly conducted.
Amendment proposed—
'"After the words last inserted, to insert the words 'provided such written authority shall only remain in force for the space of seven days from the date of the issue thereof.'"—(Mr. G. D. Faber.)
Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."
SIR S. EVANSsaid it would never do to say that the police under the written authority of the justice should only enter once. If he had authority for a week or a fortnight or a month, as the case might be, he might find it absolutely necessary to enter on more than one day. They could not possibly confine the entry to one occasion. The whole object of giving the right of inspection would be defeated. With regard to the proviso, they never intended that the authority once given should be absolutely unlimited. That would be unfair. He would be taking away with one hand what he was giving with the other. He might tell the hon. Member what course he had proposed to adopt. When he heard the Amendment read from the Chair that the authority should be limited in its operation to fourteen days, he had intended to say that he was even more reasonable than the hon. Member, and was going to suggest seven days. That having been the course he had intended to take, he had great pleasure in accepting the Amendment.
MR. REMNANTsaid that as he read the section, in conjunction with the Amendment, this was not a particular entry for a particular club, but it would be a permit to enter any club.
SIR S. EVANS: A particular club.
MR. REMNANT: It does not say so. Does it mean that?
SIR S. EVANSassented.
Amendment agreed to.
VISCOUNT HELMSLEYthought they ought to have a discussion on the point whether power was to be given to an inspector to enter any club at any specified time. He felt very strongly
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that they ought not to give the police, even within the seven days, power to go in at all times. There ought to be some Amendment to ensure that it should be only at a reasonable time or at a particular time specified on the authority.
Amendment proposed—
"In page 20, line 24, after the word 'any,' to insert the word 'specified.'"—(Viscount Helmsley.)
Question proposed, "That the word 'specified' be there inserted."
SIR S. EVANSsaid the noble Lord would see that it was absolutely impossible to accept the Amendment. It would raise the question of what was Greenwich time. Supposing the justice in his authority said the specified time was to be 12.30. If it happened to be 12.31 before the policeman arrived at the premises he could not cuter at all. That was the effect of the Amendment, and it would be doing away entirely with the benefits of the right of inspection to accept any Amendment of the sort.
MR. WALTER LONGsaid the Solicitor-General had given an interpretation which he had no doubt was accurate, but it was quite obvious that his answer was not a reply to the argument of his noble friend, who sought, not to impose the limitation suggested by the interpretation given by the Solicitor-General, but to limit the occasions on which the police were to exercise their right. It would be obviously quite easy to alter the language. He understood the hon. and learned Gentleman's view to be that if the police were to perform these duties satisfactorily, they must have a discretion as to the number of times they visited a club. He agreed with the Solicitor-General, and he did not think he could support his noble friend in imposing a limitation of this kind upon the police. It was obvious that it would be impossible for the police to ascertain whether their suspicions were well-founded or not until they were able to make more than one visit. He entirely disapproved of these powers, which he regarded

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as utterly futile and most vexatious attempts to interfere with clubs. He believed when it was known that a policeman, under an order from one magistrate, could enter a club whenever he liked, it would create in the minds of people who used clubs a very unsatisfactory feeling as to the Government that gave him that power.
VISCOUNT HELMSLEY, having regard to the very excellent reason advanced by the right hon. Gentleman why he did not think the Amendment a good one—a reason which certainly had great influence with him—asked leave to withdraw it.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
*MR, G. D. FABERthought the hon. and learned Gentleman would accept his Amendment which followed, in order to make perfectly clear and coherent the Amendment which had been accepted a few moments ago.
Amendment proposed—
"In page 20, line 24, to leave out the word 'time,' and to substitute the word 'hour.'"—(Mr. G. D. Faber.)
Question proposed. "That the word 'time' stand part of the clause.
SIR S. EVANSdid not think there was much difference between the two words, and, therefore, he could not of course accept this one. Might he give one illustration. Supposing a policeman was able to ride in a motor car and it broke down, and he could not get there in time. What then?
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
MR. BOWLESmoved an Amendment to secure that the officer should have the power to enter and inspect only the club named in the authority given to him. The clause gave the officer power to enter "any club." He could not conceive that it was the intention of the Solicitor-General that because a magistrate had empowered a police constable to enter a club he should have power to enter the Carlton
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Club or any other club in the Kingdom. He begged to move.
Amendment proposed—
"In page 20, line 25, after the word 'club,' to insert the words 'named in the written authority.'"—Mr. Bowles.)
Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."
SIR S. EVANSsaid he did not agree that the words were necessary, but he would not say that there might not be some doubt on the matter. Therefore, he had pleasure in accepting the Amendment.
Amendment agreed to.
MR. EVELYN CECILmoved an Amendment to the effect that the police officer when exercising his power under the section should be in uniform. He thought this kind of inspection should be done in a plain and straightforward manner. It was obviously desirable that this official should not enter clubs disguised as a spy. He believed he was expressing the opinion of almost every club in the kingdom in saying that they felt somewhat indignant that a slur of this kind should be put upon them especially in view of the enormous number of well-conducted clubs. If this inspection was going to take place, they ought to have a police officer to do it whose duty was largely that of inspecting, and who should enter clubs openly in uniform, instead of spying upon clubs in the way proposed, which was quite unjustifiable.
Amendment pro posed—
"In page 20, line 27, to leave out the word 'not.'"—(Mr. Evelyn Cecil.)
Question proposed, "That the word 'not' stand part of the clause."
SIR S. EVANSreplied that he believed the general feeling in the House was that the word "not" should be retained, and that the police officer should not be in uniform on such occasions. The officer would be much more prominent in uniform.
MR. STUART WORTLEYremarked that when he had the pleasure the other day of listening to the Prime Minister's exposition of this Bill he afterwards asked himself whether the provision that a constable should not enter a club in uniform was a concession, or the reverse. He confessed that he did not know what the feeling among members of these clubs was on this point, and he would be glad if some hon. Member below the gangway would inform the Committee.
MR. ARTHUR HENDERSONhoped the Amendment would not be pressed. He had been brought closely into contact not only with the representatives of the Working Men's Club and Institute Union, but with representative clubs in different parts of the country. He could assure the Committee that the provision that the police officer should not be in uniform was regarded as a concession. The desire was to keep clubs what they were intended to be by the best committees, namely, the means of healthy recreation, affording opportunities for social intercourse apart altogether from the idea of the public-house. They felt that if a police officer was to march up in uniform entering what was not exactly a home, but was to some extent used in that sense, it would constitute an interference which would be strongly resented by the members. He appealed to his hon. friend not to press his Amendment.
MR. LAMBTONsaid that this was a matter which went much further than the mere question of uniform. Under this provision a police-constable could without uniform walk into a club in Pall Mall. If he was only coming to inspect the premises why should the official not be in uniform? If he was un-uniformed he might walk through the rooms as a detective and a spy, and if he saw a member of the club lying asleep in an armchair presumably it would be his business to wake up that man and see whether he was drunk or sober. For a constable to enter the rooms of a club in plain clothes was a tyrannical domiciliary visit more suited to Russia than to England. He objected to such visits altogether. They were contrary to the spirit of Englishmen. He appealed
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to the hon. Member for Barnard Castle to consider whether it would not be better that this police inspection for good and bona fide clubs should be made by uniformed officers. He could not conceive that any working man's club would consider it a slur if the inspector came in uniform. The fact that the inspector came in uniform would not in the least reduce the club to the level of a public-house. As a matter of fact the Bill itself did much to bring clubs into the same category as public-houses. This Bill, by restrictive legislation, aimed at the reduction of the number of public-houses and by stringent rules they were reducing clubs simply to institutions-under the control of the police. If this kind of inspection was to be done at all it ought to be done openly, and the police should enter clubs in uniform.
*MR. EVELYN CECIL, in reply to the hon. Member for Barnard Castle, said that the Report of the Working Men's Club and Institute Union stated most explicitly that they supported his Amendment. It stated that the Athenæum and the village clubs were at one on this question, and spoke of the official out of uniform as a "sneaking spy."
MR. WALTER LONGsubmitted that, apart from any evidence in support of the view that clubs did not desire to have inspection by un-uniformed officials, there was a question of wide principle involved. In common fairness, ordinary members of the club who knew nothing about the visit in advance, ought to be aware that there was a stranger on the premises authorised to be there for the purpose. How was any member of a club to know whether the stranger whom he spied in the club was a newly-elected member or a police official if that official was not in uniform. He did not himself share the feeling of dislike to a constable in uniform. That officer was not regarded with so much disfavour as a disguised policeman. If there was misconduct going on in a club, the fact that the inspecting officer was in uniform would not prevent it. If the officer went there with his identity concealed, in order to find out things which he could not find out if his presence were known, then they were adopting a procedure which

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was altogether un-English. When they gave the right of entry to a policeman for the purpose of ascertaining by his own observation what the conduct of a club was like, surely the officer ought to go in uniform. He submitted that in common fairness the members of a club ought to know that a policeman was on the premises, so that they might be in a position to defend themselves in respect of any charge brought against them collectively or individually. They could not do so if a constable in plain clothes entered when the club was crowded with members in their convivial moments. The officer might go back to the police station and charge half-a-dozen of the members with being drank or quarrelsome, or with misbehaving themselves in some other way. What chance would they have of making their defence against such a charge? He had the utmost respect for the police as a body, but like other people they were liable to make mistakes. Everyone knew that mistakes were quite easily made as to whether a man was sober or not. If the police were to be allowed to make charges of that kind they should be made under conditions which would enable the persons charged to defend themselves. It was a matter of greater importance than the Committee seemed to realise. This was a novel procedure. The Committee were taking upon themselves the responsibility, no doubt with good reason, of imposing this disagreeable duty on the police. The Committee desired to put down clubs which were mere drinking shops, but in regard to this work of inspection they should remember that they were putting on the police the invidious and difficult task of obtaining evidence. If a constable entered in uniform, it was obvious that he was not so likely to be assaulted as an officer in plain clothes.
THE UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE HOME DEPARTMENT (Mr. HERBERT SAMUEL,)thought there would be considerable force in the argument of the right hon. Gentleman if they were dealing with casual persons who were allowed to enter clubs just when and how they liked.
MR. WALTER LONG: I do not know to how many clubs the hon. Gentleman belongs, but I am a member of a great many clubs, many of which I use frequently. To suggest that I could identify 30 or 40 per cent. of the members of every club to which I belong is to suggest something which is altogether unthinkable.
MR. HERBERT SAMUELsaid he did not suggest that the right hon. Gentleman could know every individual member, but he would remind him that, in every reputable workman's club registered under the Act of 1902, a visitors' book was kept at the entrance, and no stranger was admitted unless he was accompanied by a member.
VISCOUNT HELMSLEY: How about an affiliated member?
MR. HERBERT SAMUELreplied that no person was admitted as an affiliated member unless he showed his card of affiliation, and the whole contention of the right hon. Gentleman fell to the ground for the simple reason that a police officer could not find his way into any properly conducted workman's club without showing the authorisation which he was required to produce. The purpose of the Government was simply to make this inspection as little irritating to clubs as possible, first by providing that it should be carried out by a superior officer, and not by the ordinary police constable, and, secondly, by providing that he was to be in plain clothes at the time. It would cause the greatest commotion and disturbance among members, and the greatest irritation—they would regard it as an insult—if, when they were spending a convivial evening, they were to have a police officer, clothed in the garb of his office, going through the various rooms of the club. As to the opinion of the clubs on the subject, he would remind the Committee that no Amendment had been put down to this particular provision by anyone who, on this portion of the Bill, had been representing the interests of the club.
MR. LAMBTONsaid the hon. Gentleman had stated that it was not probable that a constable or inspector would be

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able to enter without indicating his policeman was to come identity. How were these gentlemen to enter the club rooms? Was an officer on entering a room to say: "I am an inspector," or was he to wander about while in the club without disclosing his identity?
MR. GOULDINGsaid the whole spirit of the clause was odious from start to finish, and he did not believe that it would in the least secure what the Government intended. The observations of the Under-Secretary showed that he was absolutely unacquainted with the working of clubs. It was absurd to say that if an officer in uniform went into a club the members would be alarmed. To his mind, the object of this individual's entering a club was to detect what he believed—though he did not know—was going on wrongly in the club. It was under the suspicion that drunkenness or some other abuse of its privileges had taken place that the inspector was to enter. The inspector had no right to go into the club otherwise, and unless he was in uniform what was he to do? Was he to go through the rooms and loiter and lounge about until he found some chance individual transgressing? The object of police inspection was that when a distinct charge had been made against a club or individuals in respect of their abusing their privileges the officer should go there openly to see whether the rules were being transgressed. He had always thought that a club was a place where men assembled who had thoughts in common as regarded politics and even as regarded religion, but if a stranger was allowed to enter and sit about in the guise of a spy the question could very well be asked: Where were the privileges connected with the club? The proposal was un-English and would never receive the assent of the people if the question were put to them. He hoped the Government would realise how detestable this clause was. The Government would not get over evils by introducing some Russian system of tyranny. He hoped the proposal would be opposed tooth and nail.
MR. HAET-DAVIESsaid there had been a feeling in the clubs that if a
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policeman was to come in at all, it should be in uniform. But he admitted that during the last two or three months that feeling was not particularly keen, one way or another. No doubt in the better working men's clubs there was a register of members, and a porter at the door who knew all the members, so that it was very hard for a stranger to get in. The matter, however, was not one of supreme importance now that the officer making the visit was to be a superior officer, but he still held the view that, on the whole, clubs would prefer that the officer should be in uniform.
MR. PATRICK WHITEsaid the Government wished to impose this clause from a consideration of the feelings of the members of the clubs. The Under-Secretary had stated that in the workmen's clubs which he had visited, a stranger's name was entered in a book and a certificate given. But that only occurred, in clubs where the rules prescribed it. How could, an ordinary club member, who only went there occasionally, distinguish between a member and a visitor introduced by a member, and a spy? He thought that any ordinary member of a club would prefer an officer in uniform to a detective in plain clothes who would watch his every movement. If inspection was necessary why should it be done by stealth or in an underhand way instead of in an open, manly way? He did not like a man whom he did not know to be at his elbow, spying everything he did, and listening to the private conversation of members. That would do away with the privacy of a club which should, be regarded as a home; and he hoped, the Government would respect the feelings of those who knew club life.
LORD BALCARRESsaid that the Under-Secretary seemed, to endorse the view that members of a club would regard the visits of a police officer in uniform as an insult That was a very singular statement to come from a representative of the Home Office.
MR. HERBERT SAMUEL: I said it would, cause disturbance and commotion.
LORD BALCARRESsaid that "insult" was the term the hon. Member used. There would, in his opinion, be less commotion in a club caused by the entrance of a policeman in uniform than there would be by the visit of a policeman in mufti. He had not the smallest hesitation in saying that, from his own experience of clubs, members of these institutions would much rather see a man in uniform and know who he was, and what his business was, than have the knowledge that, at any time, there might be a plain clothes man on the premises looking about in order to find out something that he might bring against the club or any individual member. The Under-Secretary had spoken about door-keepers of a club. Of course, in grand clubs, such as the Athenæum and other West-End clubs, there were door-keepers; but the average artisans' clubs in Lancashire which he knew could not afford to pay £60 or £70 a year for doorkeepers. Anyone could walk in and out of these clubs, where there was only a general factotum who went about from room to room to see that nobody was present who was not authorised to be there, and who, if he found such a man, would ask him what his business was. The hon. Member for Bethnal Green only spoke of clubs in his own constituency, where there was one of the finest in the kingdom and where there was a door-keeper. But in ordinary clubs, where there was the greatest danger of abuse, they could not always have a man at the door to check the entrance of strangers. He stated unhesitatingly that unless they wanted to create a reaction against legislation of this character, everything should be done to circumscribe and allay the irritation which it would inevitably arouse. Which would cause the maximum of espionage? The visits of a plain clothes man or a policeman in uniform? He held strongly to the opinion that if there was to be inspection of clubs, inspection by a uniformed policeman would cause far less irritation than in spection by a plainclothes man; and that was the opinion of the members of artizans' clubs in his constituency.
*MR. GEORGE ROBERTS, said that when the Bill was first intro-
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duced very strong resentment was manifested against police inspection, especially by men in uniform; and that was why they desired that lay officers should be appointed for the purpose. They had to disabuse their minds of the idea that this inspection could be a form of spying, and also to consider the concessions which had been made by the Government. First of all, he admitted that the clubs would have to be under some kind of inspection; but what would be the procedure? There would be some feeling in the neighbourhood that a club was not properly conducted, and complaints would have to be made to the chief constable. If that official was assured that the complaint was well established, he had to get the signature of a justice of the peace to a right of entry, and the inspector would have to produce that authorisation at the door. He had been a secretary of a club and could approach this matter from a practical point of view. In his club members of the committee took their turn of duty at the door to see that no visitors entered without proper introduction. He himself had been on duty at the door, and if a member desired to introduce a visitor, a book had to be signed. The same was the case with all registered clubs, so that it was impossible for an unknown stranger to secure entry. When a superior police officer presented his authority to the person at the door, that person would accompany the officer round the building; and certainly it would not be long before everybody in the club knew that an inspector was there to take notes. The objection to the Amendment, as he understood, was two-fold. First, that all inspection was objectionable. That he could understand. Secondly, that it ought to be done openly, so that everybody would know that an inspection was being made. He was not concerned that everybody should know that an inspector was present. The inspector should be allowed to see how the club was conducted in an ordinary way. If notice was given there would be nothing to which the inspector could take exception. He and those with him were satisfied that the Government had met their objections to a very considerable degree; and as they desired that the

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inspection should be real and tangible, they considered it should be conducted by a policeman in plain clothes, rather than by policemen in uniform. He hoped, therefore, that the Government would stand firm.
SIR F. CAWLEYsaid that in Lancashire anybody could go into working-men's clubs at any time in the evening. Very often the steward of the club might be serving members in a room and a plain clothes man might go into any other part of the building and sit there for a couple of hours watching and spying what was being done. He preferred that the inspection should be done by a police officer in uniform, who, of course, would not go into the club unless previously he had reason to suppose something wrong was going on. But he should go in openly and accuse the steward of what he complained about.
MR. BOWLESsaid he understood the hon. Member for Norwich, who spoke with the authority of one who had himself served as a secretary to a working-men's club, to say that under the clause as it now stood, within a very short time of the entry of an inspector, everybody in the club would be aware that an inspection was going on. The hon. Member's second proposition was that he thought it would be an undesirable thing that it should be known that an inspector was in the club. Under these circumstances, he did not understand how the hon. Gentleman could object to this Amendment. The real question was whether it was desirable in the case of a respectable, genuine, and bona fide club the members should be aware that an inspection was taking place. It appeared to him, on the face of it, it was essential, inasmuch as they were dealing with an altogether novel proceeding, that every member of a club should know, and was entitled to know clearly, and at once, that the premises were being inspected at the very moment of inspection. Unless that were established, a member of a club would never know when he went into a club whether or no he was being officially inspected. The best method of making that clear was that the inspectors should be in uniform.
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It was not enough that a general word should be sent round to all the members in the club that there was an inspector present. Everybody should know it openly and not in an underhand and undesirable way. He earnestly hoped that his hon. friend would press his Amendment, and that the Solicitor-General would accept it.
MR. JOHN WARDthought the speech of the hon. Member for Norwood was the most illogical he had ever heard him deliver. The hon. Member generally kept most rigidly to the principle which he set out to illustrate and did not drop it by any argument which he delivered, as he had done on that occasion. It was well known that if inspection of a club was desired—if the police wished to interfere with the existence of a club, or if they felt that any illegal act was being committed—it was quite competent for them even now to spy upon it. It was not impossible to become a member; indeed, it was a very easy matter to become a member of these clubs. He thought everybody would agree that there was no very rigid investigation, as to the qualification or otherwise of the individual. He generally applied and signed a form of application to become a member, and if he was a detective he would not be at all particular about what he signed on the form. The consequence was that this idea of opening up some terrible system of secret spying, which the hon. Gentleman on the opposite side suggested, only existed in his own imagination. All these powers existed to-day, if the police chose to use them. What had been done entirely took away their opposition. He was a member of a working men's club, and had been for years, and what took away their objection, entirely was this. They had been, and he thought they were now, utterly opposed to inspection of every description, because they knew very well that the clubs of hon. Gentlemen on that side who sat above the gangway were not going to be inspected. It was only the clubs of the working men that were going to be inspected. There might be a prospect perhaps, if the Bill was carried as it was, so that the police officer was not in uniform, of getting a policeman now and

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again into the Carlton Club, or other clubs, to see what was going on in those aristocratic, institutions in the West End, but if he must be in uniform, it was a moral certainty he would not get there, and if he did and made a report of what went on, he would not have his uniform long. Therefore, they must take it for granted that they were not dealing with that question at all. The safeguards which induced his hon. friend the Member for Norwich and himself to support the Government in the proposal that they made was this. Inspection had been decided upon by the Committee; that inspection had been safeguarded, by making it a condition that before the policeman entered he must be authorised by a magistrate, and they took it for granted that when he entered, the very first thing he would have to do would be to present his authorisation. If, however, ha wanted to spy upon the club it was always very easy for a man to do so. It was only necessary for an officer of the detective force of the locality to go and sign a form and become a member, and he could spy to his heart's content, whether this clause was in the Bill or not. There was no such difficulty as was assumed. He dared say it was a difficult process to get into an aristocratic club, and the detective would have trouble. All sorts of inquiries would be made. They would want to know in what sphere of life he moved, whether he belonged to the same social standing as the other members, and all about him. But whether it was right or wrong, the working men's club and the working men generally never made inquiries of that description, and consequently those who were members of these exclusive clubs should not imagine that there were the same difficulties in the way of detectives doing their work in working men's clubs as there were in those clubs with which they were connected. This was a moral certainty, as a young officer not more than three or four years ago showed at Barry. The navvies were building docks at Barry, and as they were the most expert shebeeners in the country, they became a positive nuisance to the locality. The young officer decided to become a member of the whole lot of the institutions, and he did, and within about
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six months by his membership he succeeded in suppressing twenty-two of them. All that was done under the law as it stood at present. This spying was quite possible if there were really bogus institutions carried on. It was quite competent under the present law to carry on the ordinary detective work, and to suppress bogus clubs. At the same time it had been decided by the Committee to have a system of inspection, that inspection had been safeguarded by the written authority of the magistrates being required, and the case was in his estimation entirely met. He hoped the Government, now that the Committee had decided upon inspection, would insist upon the clause as it stood.
*MR. LUTTRELLhoped the Government would look favourably upon this Amendment, because it seemed to him to embody a very reasonable proposition. In forming an opinion as to this Amendment, one would be influenced by two considerations, one how it would affect the interests of the law, and the other how it would affect the interests of the club. As far as the law was concerned, he took it that it would be better that these constables should be allowed to enter in uniform. Supposing the police were only allowed to enter a club in private clothes, there might be difficulty in providing a constable, for we fortunately had not in this country a general detective system such as some other countries had possessed. Therefore, in the interests of the law it would be more easy to carry out if the clause provided that the constable should be in uniform rather than in plain clothes, unless they were going to have a detective system made general. Then as to whether it would be in the interests of the club, that the police should go in to spy upon what was going on. Formerly he had been a member of a club for many years, and he should not have cared to have a man coming into a club and spying about; he would much prefer the club's being inspected under the law in an open and above-board way. On these grounds, he must ask the Government favourably to consider the Amendment.
CAPTAIN MORRISOX-BELLsaid the hon. Member

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for Stoke-on-Trent used a rather curious argument, because he said he knew of twenty-two clubs having been suppressed under the present law. Why, therefore, have this clause at all? It seemed to him to be unnecessary and to be drafted in a very loose way. If they allowed officers to go into a club, even in plain clothes, those employed in the district would be known to all the members of the club; therefore, he would be selected to go to some far district where he would be unknown, and in going into a club he would be acting practically as a spy. Let them carry out the old English idea and play above-board. They might be sure that if there was anything wrong going on in a club some cute people would be on the look out, and the inspector's or constable's visit would be known all over the premises in two minutes, and anything wrong would be put out of sight or got rid of in some sort of way. Therefore, he did not think it made such a difference whether a man was in plain clothes or in uniform, but they should carry out the honest, straightforward ideas with which they were familiar. If a police officer went into a club it ought to be known that he was a police officer. There was a strong feeling in his part of the world about this great infringement of personal liberty. This system of espionage was contrary to English ideas, and for that reason he should support the Amendment.
*MR. VERNEYcongratulated the Labour benches on their determination that where inspection of clubs was necessary—and where it was not, it would never be put in practice—it should be of a thoroughly drastic kind. He thought those clubmen who knew how thoroughly respectable the best workmen's clubs were, would, naturally wish that those who infringed their privileges and misconducted themselves should be at once removed and dealt with severely. He knew as a fact that in many clubs, particularly those at Swindon, policemen were members of workmen's clubs, and one of the delegates from the Swindon clubs when they came to London said that that was a reason against police inspection, because they would have some of their own members inspecting their clubs, which
1596
would be absurd. He thought it was partly owing to that fact that it was provided that only a superior class of constable should have this power of inspection. He was one of those who thought that if inspection of a club was necessary it was because the character of that club had been brought seriously into question, aid justified a magistrate in granting an inspection order. The hon. Member for Norwood asked whether it was not right that in a respectable club every member of it should know if a police inspector was coming. He should, say "Certainly;" if every member of a club and every club was respectable, it would be a good thing that everybody should know that an inspector was in the club. But they were not dealing with these perfect clubs in this matter of inspection, they were dealing with clubs of a lower character, or he would, rather put it in this way: they had to deal with clubs in which some few members—a small fraction of the members—were degrading their clubs and them elves, and in that case he would like inspection to be as thorough as they could make it; and he congratulated hon. Members on the Labour bench on the attitude they had taken in support of an inspection which, when necessary, would be made as efficient as possible.
VISCOUNT HELMSLEYwas sorry that the hon. Member for Stoke had left his seat after making a peculiarly offensive speech a short time ago, which he felt should not be left unanswered. It was a monstrous proposition to put before the Committee that some of them thought that, if this police inspection was to be in uniform inspection would not take place in the clubs to which they belonged. He thought that was an offensive suggestion. He considered the whole debate on this particular question showed what a position of difficulty they were in through having adopted this un-English idea of inspection, which, if it was carried out by men in uniform, would be irritating and more or less useless. If they had inspection by men who were not in uniform they would be open to the charge that they were encouraging a system of espionage which they had heard of elsewhere, but which had never been adopted in this country. The hon.

1597
Member for Stoke had mentioned a place in Wales where twenty-two clubs were suppressed owing to a police officer becoming a member. What a commentary on the licensing restrictions in Wales! If that was the result of these restrictions, it went far to prove what the Leader of the Opposition said a few days ago, that the Government had upset the balance, and that the restrictions on clubs would not have the desirable effects they anticipated. There was another point of some importance with regard to the question of uniform. He rather liked to look at it from the point of view of those who were to make the inspection. Nobody had a greater admiration of the police force in this country than he had, but he thought the Committee would be putting them in a very difficult position, and one of great temptation, by telling them that they were to go into these clubs in plain clothes to carry out inspection. At any rate, if a man was in uniform he had the sense of responsibility which the uniform carried with it, and he could not help thinking that if a man was to make this inspection in plain clothes, such inspection would open up a greater possibility than otherwise would be the case of corrupt practices ensuing in undesirable clubs. He thought that that was worthy of consideration. Although at first he was doubtful whether it was not a concession that the inspection should not be in uniform, after listening to the debate he was convinced that it was a mistake. He found it was really no concession whatever. If inspection was to be carried out it should be carried out in uniform openly and above board.
MR. RICHARDSONsaid that if it were not for the fact that he believed the police of this country, especially chief constables, were men of common sense, he could conceive that there might be some danger in carrying out this particular clause. He was not afraid of espionage though he was a member of a working man's club, and he was quite sure that the inspectors would never be seen in the ordinary Conservative, Liberal, social,
or workmen's clubs. It was only because this evil was springing up that this precaution was necessary. He was not in favour of any inspection whatever, but seeing there was a general consensus of opinion that there should be some kind of inspection, he must say, as a member of a working-men's club, he preferred a man in uniform to a man in plain clothes.
*MR. REESexpressed his dissatisfaction with the speech made by the hon. Member for Stoke. It was a very serious thing to say that if a policeman came into a club with an authorisation under this Bill the members of the club would obtain his dismissal from the force. The objection of the club would be against the Government which passed the Act which gave the authorisation and not against the man who acted on it and was merely an agent. He thought the hon. Member for Stoke must really be under a misapprehension. It was not necessary for the policeman to be a member of the club in order to carry out this inspection, but the hon. Member so dwelt upon the difficulty of getting into the clubs of Pall Mall, that one was tempted to believe he thought this was the case. It had been said that this section was only intended for such clubs as were badly conducted, but the clause applied to all. It was unfortunate that there was no saving clause, by which clubs which had traditions and excellent characters could be exempt from this inspection. If the inspection was, however, going to be made, it would be better for a man in plain clothes to do the duty, because if he were in uniform they might just as well beat a drum and inform the club that the inspection was about to take place. If they were to have this clause—and he rather thought they could have done without it—it ought to be in the terms drawn by the Government, so he should vote against the Amendment of his hon. friend.
Question put.
The Committee divided:—Ayes, 186; Noes, 69. (Division List No. 340.)

AYES.

Acland, Francis Dyke

Agar-Robartes, Hon. T. C. R.

Ainsworth, John Stirling

Adkins, W. Ryland D.

Agnew, George William

Allen, A. Acland (Christchurch)

Allen, Charles P. (Stroud)

Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N. E.

Rees, J. D.

Baker, Joseph A. (Finsbury, E.

Harwood, George

Richards, T. F. (Wolverh'mpt'n

Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight)

Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth)

Richardson, A.

Barker, John

Hedges, A. Paget

Ridsdale, E. A.

Barlow, Percy (Bedford)

Helme, Norval Watson

Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)

Barnes, G. N.

Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

Roberts, G. H. (Norwich)

Beale, W. P.

Herbert, Col. Sir Ivor (Mon., S.)

Robertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradf'rd

Beaumont, Hon. Hubert

Herbert, T. Arnold (Wycombe)

Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside)

Berridge, T. H. D.

Higham, John Sharp

Robinson, S.

Bethell, T. R. (Essex, Maldon)

Hobart, Sir Robert

Robson, Sir William Snowdon

Bowerman, C. W.

Hobhouse, Charles E. H.

Roch, Walter F. (Pembroke)

Brace, William

Hodge, John

Roe, Sir Thomas

Branch, James

Hogan, Michael

Rose, Charles Day

Brigg, John

Horniman, Emslie John

Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter

Brocklehurst, W. B.

Hudson, Walter

Russell, Rt. Hon. T. W.

Brooke, Stopford

Hutton, Alfred Eddison

Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)

Brunner, Rt. Hn.Sir T.J(Cheshire

Jacoby, Sir James Alfred

Scarisbrick, T. T. L.

Bryce, J. Annan

Jardine, Sir J.

Schwann, C. Duncan (Hyde)

Buxton, Rt. Hn. Sydney Charles

Jones, Leif (Appleby)

Schwann, Sir C. E. (Manchester)

Byles, William Pollard

Kearley, Sir Hudson E.

Sears, J. E.

Cameron, Robert

Kekewich, Sir George

Seaverns, J. H.

Channing, Sir Francis Allston

Lamb, Ernest H. (Rohcester)

Shaw, Rt. Hon. T. (Hawick, B.)

Cheetham, John Frederick

Lamont, Norman

Shipman, Dr. John G.

Clough, William

Layland-Barratt, Sir Francis

Sinclair, Rt. Hon. John

Cobbold, Felix Thornley

Leese, Sir Joseph F. (Accrington

Sloan, Thomas Henry

Collins, Stephen (Lambeth)

Lupton, Arnold

Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie

Cooper, G. J.

Lyell, Charles Henry

Snowden, P.

Corbett, C. H. (Sussex, E. Grinst'd

Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester)

Soames, Arthur Wellesley

Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.

Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk B'ghs.

Soares, Ernest J.

Cory, Sir Clifford John

Mackarness, Frederic C.

Stanger, H. Y.

Cotton, Sir H. J. S.

Maclean, Donald

Stanley, Hn. A. Lyulph (Chesh.

Cox, Harold

Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.

Stewart, Halley (Greenock)

Crooks, William

MacVeagh, Jeremiah (Down, S.)

Straus, B. S. (Mile End)

Davies, David (Montgomery Co.

M'Callum, John M.

Summerbell, T.

Davies, M. Vaughan- (Cardigan

M'Kenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald

Sutherland, J. E.

Davies, Timothy (Fulham)

Mallet, Charles E.

Tennant, H. J. (Berwickshire)

Dickinson, W. H. (St. Pancras, N.

Mansfield, H. Rendall (Lincoln)

Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton)

Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness)

Marnham, F. J.

Toulmin, George

Duncan, J. H. (York, Otley)

Menzies, Walter

Ure, Alexander

Erskine, David C.

Molteno, Percy Alport

Verney, F. W.

Essex, R. W.

Mond, A.

Walters, John Tudor

Esslemont, George Birnie

Montagu, Hon. E. S.

Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent)

Evans, Sir Samuel T.

Morgan, G. Hay (Cornwall)

Wardle, George J.

Ferens, T. R.

Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen)

Wason, Rt. Hn. E. (Clackmannan

Foster, Rt. Hon. Sir Walter

Murray, Capt. Hn. A. C. (Kincard.

Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney)

Fuller, John Michael F.

Murray, James (Aberdeen, E.)

Waterlow, D. S.

Fullerton, Hugh

Myer, Horatio

Watt, Henry A.

Gibb, James (Harrow)

Napier, T. B.

Wedgwood, Josiah C.

Glendinning, R. G.

Nicholls, George

White, J. Dundas (Dumbart'nsh.

Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford

Norton, Capt. Cecil William

Whitley, John Henry (Halifax)

Gooch, George Peabody (Bath)

Nussey, Thomas Willans

Whittaker, Rt. Hn. Sir Thomas P.

Grant, Corrie

O'Grady, J.

Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)

Greenwood, G. (Peterborough)

Partington, Oswald

Wilson, J. W. (Worcestersh, N.)

Griffith, Ellis J.

Paulton, James Mellor

Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)

Gurdon, Rt. Hn. Sir W. Brampton

Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek)

Winfrey, R.

Haldane, Rt. Hon. Richard B.

Pearce, William (Limehouse)

Wood, T. M'Kinnon

Harcourt, RtHn.L.(Rossendale

Pickersgill, Edward Hare

Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose)

Pirie, Duncan V.

TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr.

Hardie, J. Keir(Merthyr Tydvil)

Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H.

Joseph Pease and Mr.

Hardy, George A. (Suffolk)

Priestley, W. E. B. (Bradford, E.)

Herbert Lewis.

Harmsworth, Cecil B. (Worc'r)

Rainy, A. Rolland

Hart-Davies, T.

Rea, Russell (Gloucester)

NOES.

Acland-Hood, Rt. Hn. Sir Alex, F.

Bignold, Sir Arthur

Craig, Captain James (Down, E.)

Anstruther-Gray, Major

Bowles, G. Stewart

Craik, Sir Henry

Balcarres, Lord

Carlile, E. Hildred

Cross, Alexander

Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (City Lond.)

Cave, George

Du Cros, Arthur Philip

Banbury, Sir Frederick George

Cawley, Sir Frederick

Duncan, Robert (Lanark, Govan

Barrie, H. T. (Londonderry, N.)

Clive, Percy Archer

Faber, George Denison (York)

Beckett, Hon. Gervase

Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

Fardell, Sir T. George

1600

1601

Fletcher, J. S.

Lonsdale, John Brownlee

Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall

Gardner, Ernest

Lowe, Sir Francis William

Ronaldshay, Earl of

Gibbs, G. A. (Bristol, West)

Luttrell, Hugh Fownes

Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool)

Gooch, Henry Cubitt (Peckham)

Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred

Salter, Arthur Clavell

Goulding, Edward Alfred

Magnus, Sir Philip

Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East)

Guinness, Hon. R. (Haggerston)

Morrison-Bell, Captain

Stanier, Beville

Guinness, W. E. (Bury S. Edm.)

Nolan, Joseph

Starkey, John R.

Helmsley, Viscount

Oddy, John James

Stone, Sir Benjamin

Hill, Sir Clement

Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington

Valentia, Viscount

Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield)

Percy, Earl

Walker, Col. W. H. (Lancashire)

Houston, Robert Paterson

Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

White, Patrick (Meath, North)

Hunt, Rowland

Randles, Sir John Scurrah

Young, Samuel

Kerry, Earl of

Rasch, Sir Frederic Carne

Kimber, Sir Henry

Ratcliff, Major R. F.

TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr.

Lee, Arthur H. (Hants, Fareham

Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel

Evelyn Cecil and Mr. Lambton.

Lockwood, Rt. Hn. Lt.-Col. A. R.

Remnan, James Farquharson

Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham

Renton, Leslie

Long,Rt.Hn.Walter Dublin, S.)

Renwick, George

SIR S. EVANSmoved to add at the end of the clause "and shall produce his authority, if it is demanded by any member or official of the club." He had, he said, added the words "or official" on the representation of some of his hon. friends, who had pointed out that there were stewards and doorkeepers who were not members, before whom strangers had to appear in many instances before they entered clubs. It was reasonable that the persons on duty at the door should be entitled also to ask the officer to prod ace his authority.
Amendment proposed—
"In page 20, line 27, at end, to insert the words "and shall produce his authority, if it is demanded by any member or official of the club.'"—(Sir S. Evans.)
Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."
LORD BALCARRESsaid it was only in the case of a bad club that the appearance of this gentleman would be necessary or effective, and it was only in the case of badly conducted clubs that any concealment was necessary. This Amendment gave the right to any member to demand the production of the authority, and if a sufficient number of members presented their demand in succession, time would be wasted and the inspection would be rendered useless.
Amendment agreed to.
MR. WALTER LONGmoved to add the words "but if the chief constable has reason to believe that the entry and inspection of a club and premises by
1602
such person or persons when not in uniform might occasion a breach of the peace he may then direct the officer to appear in uniform." He felt bound to dispute the claim of the Under-Secretary that he had disposed altogether of the reason for which he had supported the previous Amendment because all the hon. Gentleman did was to advance certain allegations of his own which pointed in a contrary direction to the statements which he (Mr. Long) had made; and he was convinced that nobody conversant with club life would from his own experience draw any such conclusions as those of the hon. Gentleman. The point to which he (Mr. Long) directed attention, and upon which he should seek the opinion of the Law Officer of the Crown, was as to what would follow if the entry by the police was made at a time when the condition of a club was such as might involve the risk of a breach of the peace. He was no lawyer, but it was a matter of common knowledge that if a man quarrelled with a man in plain clothes, who afterwards turned out to be a policeman, he was not subjected to the same disabilities as he would be if he quarrelled with a policeman in uniform. He was convinced that the Government had failed to realise what would be the effect of this clause on some of the very clubs they desired to suppress. In regard to well-managed and properly conducted clubs, the entry of the police would be merely a matter of offence to the members, but would have no prejudicial effect on the existence of the club, but where it was one of those places described as mere drinking shops, existing for the

1603
purpose of selling drink at times when it could not be obtained in public-houses, and improperly conducted in other respects, there they had gatherings of men at a late hour—men who frequently became quarrelsome, and if the word went round, as it certainly would do if the Under-Secretary's description of such clubs was correct, that there was a spy on the premises, there would be every incentive to a row. He submitted that to cast on the chief constable the duty of reporting on these clubs, and to force him to send a man not in uniform to do it, was to impose on him a duty which he could not discharge without running a grave risk of himself being the cause of a breach of the peace. That was a thing which the House had no right to do. The duties of the police were difficult enough to perform already, and nobody in the House had a right to call to their aid the supreme power of Parliament in order to throw on the police a duty which he would not attempt to perform himself. The Amendment of the hon. Member for Mansfield, who was unfortunately not present, was to enable the chief constable, if he thought a breach of the peace might ensue from the sending of a man in plain clothes, to send him in uniform, and he (Mr. Long) proposed to add words to make that feasible. They had to consider whether it was just to throw a duty of this nature upon the police, and whether if they did so they might not be creating, rather than stopping, crime. In his own part of the world the Petty Sessional Division in which he had the honour to sit ran the grave risk, till the other day, of being extinguished owing to the peaceful and respectable character of the neighbourhood, but, thanks to the arrival in office of the present Government and to their legislation, there was every likelihood of that bench having plenty to do in future, because the Government were continually creating absolutely new crimes and throwing upon the police quite new duties, which would undoubtedly involve the creation of altogether fresh crimes. The policy of the Government had had that effect, and that being so, unless they paused in what they were doing, he was convinced they would
1604
throw on the police duties which they would not be able to perform. He begged to move.
Amendment proposed—
"In page 20, line 27, after the words last added, to add the words 'provided that, if the chief constable has reason to believe that the entry and inspection of a club and premises by such person or persons when not in uniform might occasion a breach of the peace, he may then direct him or them to wear uniform.'"—(Mr. Walter Long.)
Question proposed, "That those words be there added."
SIR S. EVANSsaid the right hon. Gentleman had made a forcible speech, and with many of the sentiments in that speech they would all agree, viz., the sentiments in which he declared that everybody ought to assist the police in the performance of their duties. There was no difference at all in the status of a police officer whether he was in uniform or not, if he declared that he was a police officer, which he must do before he could get into a club.
MR. WALTER LONG: As he walks about the club amongst the members seeking to find out what their conduct is like, is he compelled to say to each man: "I am an inspector of police"?
SIR S. EVANSsaid that every member had the right to demand who he was, and he had no doubt whatever that if the officer anticipated any difficulty, he would himself take care to inform everybody in the club that he was there as a police officer doing his duty. In that case, if anybody interfered with him, or assaulted him, they would be guilty of the crime of assaulting the police while in the execution of their duty. He thought the right hon. Gentleman had in his mind something more than the ordinary inspection the Government were thinking of in this provision. The police were not precluded from availing themselves of the power given by the Act of 1902 of getting a search warrant, and to cope with the state of things contemplated by the Amendment the police would undoubtedly have a search, warrant. They would never go under the ordinary powers of

1605
inspection under this clause to raid a club; they would undoubtedly get a search warrant and go there, not merely in uniform, but probably in force. He thought that was the answer to the objections which underlay the speech of the right hon. Gentleman. He did not think it would be right to accept the Amendment, having regard to the decision of the Committee on the last Amendment, which really amounted to this, that in carrying out these ordinary inspections, they should carry them out in a manner to cause as little irritation and annoyance as possible.
MR. HUNTsaid the objection which working-men had to the entry of policemen not in uniform was that they could go in and sit down and talk to the members, who would not know who they were. Was the police officer to go into a club and, directly he got into a room, to say: "Hi, lookout; I am a police officer"? The working-men thought that they would be spied upon, to which they most strongly objected, and the Government would find that the objection of Radical as well as of Conservative clubs was most strong. Men would not stand being spied upon, and that was what it would mean unless the police went in uniform.
MR. LYTTELTONsaid the Solicitor-General had not answered the arguments of his right hon. friend. There were clubs in the large towns which might contain on a Saturday night 500 or 600 people. There might be clubs in which a sudden irritation might arise, and if the word was rapidly passed round that there was a spy on the premises it was easy to conceive that the man who was, in their view, intruding, might be somewhat seriously hustled. What in the world was the objection which the Solicitor-General had to this most innocent Amendment? His answer was practically that in order to obtain entrance into a club the policeman would have to produce his authority, and that he would at once by that means proclaim to every member of the club that he was a policeman, and every member of the club would be at once aware that if he
1606
assaulted him he would incur grave penalties. That really was not the case. The man's authority would be produced at the door of the club; he would then enter, and if it was the case that immediately thereafter he should proclaim to every member that he was a policeman, it was ridiculous not to have him in uniform. What was the good of making a provision that he should be in plain clothes if by proclamation he was to place himself in exactly the same position by the voice as his uniform would place him by the eye? If there was any sense at all in having the policeman not in uniform, obviously there could be no sense in proclaiming to 500 or 600 members that he was a policeman.
MR. CARLILEasked whether the subsection as it now stood did not provide that the police officer must be accompanied by the chief constable. The clause read apparently as if that were the intention.
*MR. CAVEsaid they were dealing with a case where there was a club in which, some offence was suspected to be happening. That is, they were dealing on the hypothesis that the club was not above suspicion. It might be that drinking was going on. In that case, to compel the police to go in plain clothes was a very dangerous thing to do. He quite agreed that when the offender knew that the person he was dealing with was a policeman, it was no answer for him to say that the man was in plain clothes, but how extremely easy it was for a man charged with an assault on a constable to say he had not the least idea he was a constable. It was almost impossible to prove that he knew he was a constable. He thought this matter ought to be considered before Report, with a view, if possible, to leaving some discretion to the police. He thought it a great pity that the Amendment on the Paper to leave out the last two lines of the clause, which compelled the officer to go in plain clothes, was not moved. In that case the discretion would be with the chief constable, who in an ordinary case would consider the feelings of the members and send an officer in plain clothes, and who, in a

1607
suspicious case, would think it the right thing to send the man in uniform, so that the whole club might know he was a member of the force. Failing some assurance from the Government of that kind, he thought they ought to support the Amendment.
SIR S. EVANSsaid it was entirely a matter as to whether the people chiefly affected would be more offended by a man in uniform than otherwise, and that being so he would be pleased to make investigations, and see what were the wishes of the clubs in regard to this particular question.
MR. A. J. BALFOURsaid he quite accepted the conciliatory manner in which the Solicitor-General had dealt with this matter. The hon. and learned Gentleman would see that the Amendment of his right hon. friend only suggested that the chief constable was to send a man in uniform when he had reason to think that it would not be safe to send him in plain clothes. The pre-
sumption was that, where he could go safely in plain clothes, he would go in plain clothes, but, when the Solicitor-General came to think it over, he would see that to compel a chief constable to send him in plain clothes when the chief constable thought it would be dangerous to do so was to restrict the discretion of the chief constable in a manner which was hardly defensible.
MR. GEORGE ROBERTSsaid that in this clause they were dealing with inspection. Where they had evidence that irregularities were habitual in the club, he took it that the Solicitor-General would inform them that proceedings would be taken under the Act of 1902. They were dealing with ordinary inspection, not through a raid, in order to get possession of information as to whether such irregularities did exist.
Question put.
The Committee divided:—Ayes, 77; Noes, 197. (Division List No. 341.)

AYES.

Baldwin, Stanley

Goulding, Edward Alfred

Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington

Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (City Lond)

Gretton, John

Percy, Earl

Banbury, Sir Frederick George

Guinness, W. E. (Bury S. Edm.)

Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

Barrie, H. T. (Londonderry, N.)

Harrison-Broadley, H. B.

Rasch, Sir Frederic Carne

Beckett, Hon. Gervase

Helmsley, Viscount

Ratcliff, Major R. F.

Bignold, Sir Arthur

Hill, Sir Clement

Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel

Bowles, G. Stewart

Hogan, Michael

Remnant, James Farquharson

Bridgeman, W. Clive

Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield)

Renton, Leslie

Carlile, E. Hildred

Houston, Robert Paterson

Renwick, George

Cave, George

Hunt, Rowland

Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall)

Cawley, Sir Frederick

Kerry, Earl of

Ronaldshay, Earl of

Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

Kimber, Sir Henry

Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool)

Cecil, Lord R. (Marylebone, E.)

Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm.

Salter, Arthur Clavell

Clive, Percy Archer

Lee, Arthur H. (Hants, Fareham

Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert

Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

Lockwood, Rt. Hn. Lt.-Col. A. R.

Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East)

Courthope, G. Loyd

Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham

Stanier, Beville

Craig, Charles Curtis (Antrim, S)

Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Dublin, S)

Starkey, John R.

Craig, Captain James (Down, E.)

Lonsdale, John Brownlee

Thornton, Percy M.

Craik, Sir Henry

Lowe, Sir Francis William

Walker, Col. W. H. (Lancashire)

Crosfield, A. H.

Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred

Watt, Henry A.

Cross, Alexander

MacCaw, William J. MacGeagh

Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E. R.)

Dixon-Hartland, Sir Fred Dixon

Magnus, Sir Philip

Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

Duncan, Robert (Lanark, Govan

Morpeth, Viscount

Young, Samuel

Faber, George Denison (York)

Morrison-Bell, Captain

Fardell, Sir T. George

Nicholson, Wm. G. (Petersfield)

TELLERS FOR THE AYES—

Fletcher, J. S.

Nolan, Joseph

Viscount Valentia and Lord

Gardner, Ernest

Oddy, John James

Balcarres.

NOES.

Acland, Francis Dyke

Alden, Percy

Barker, John

Adkins, W. Ryland D.

Allen, A. Acland (Christchurch)

Barlow, Percy (Bedford)

Agar-Robartes, Hon. T. C. R.

Allen, Charles P. (Stroud)

Barnard, E. B.

Agnew, George William

Baker, Joseph A. (Finsbury, E.)

Barnes, G. N.

Ainsworth, John Stirling

Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight)

Barran, Rowland Hirst

Beale, W. P.

Higham, John Sharp

Richardson, A.

Berridge, T. H. D.

Hobart, Sir Robert

Ridsdale, E. A.

Bethell, T. R. (Essex. Maldon)

Hodge, John

Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)

Black, Arthur W.

Horniman, Emslie John

Roberts, G. H. (Norwich)

Bowerman, C. W.

Horridge, Thomas Gardner

Robertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradf'rd

Brace, William

Hudson, Walter

Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside)

Branch, James

Hutton, Alfred Eddison

Robinson, S.

Brigg, John

Jacoby, Sir James Alfred

Robson, Sir William Snowdon

Brocklehurst, W. B.

Jardine, Sir J.

Roch, Walter F. (Pembroke)

Brooke, Stopford

Jones, Sir D. Brynmor (Swansea

Roe, Sir Thomas

Brunner, Rt. Hn. Sir J. T. (Cheshire

Jones, Leif (Appleby)

Rose, Charles Day

Bryce, J. Annan

Kearley, Sir Hudson E.

Russell, Rt. Hon. T. W.

Buxton, Rt. Hn. Sydney Charles

Kekewich, Sir George

Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)

Byles, William Pollard

Lamb, Ernest H. (Rochester)

Scarisbrick, T. T. L.

Cameron, Robert

Lamont, Norman

Schwann, C. Duncan (Hyde)

Carr-Gomm, H. W.

Layland-Barratt, Sir Francis

Schwann, Sir C. E. (Manchester)

Channing, Sir Francis Allston

Leese, Sir Joseph F. (Accrington

Sears, J. E.

Cheetham, John Frederick

Lever, A. Levy (Essex, Harwich)

Seaverns, J. H.

Clough, William

Lupton, Arnold

Shaw, Rt. Hon. T. (Hawick, B.)

Cobbold, Felix Thornley

Luttrell, Hugh Fownes

Shipman, Dr. John G.

Collins, Stephen (Lambeth)

Lyell, Charles Henry

Sinclair, Rt. Hon. John

Collins, Sir Wm. J. (S. Pancras, W.

Lynch, H. B.

Sloan, Thomas Henry

Cooper, G. J.

Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester)

Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie

Corbett, C. H. (Sussex, E. Grinst'd

Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk B'ghs)

Snowden, P.

Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.

Mackarness, Frederic C.

Soames, Arthur Wellesley

Cory, Sir Clifford John

Maclean, Donald

Soares, Ernest J.

Cotton, Sir H. J. S.

Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.

Stanger, H. Y.

Crooks, William

M'Callum, John M.

Stanley, Hn. A. Lyulph (Chesh.)

Curran, Peter Francis

Mallet, Charles E.

Steadman, W. C.

Davies, David (Montgomery Co

Mansfield, H. Rendall(Lincoln)

Stewart, Halley (Greenock)

Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardigan

Marnham, F. J.

Strachey, Sir Edward

Davies, Timothy (Fulham)

Menzies, Walter

Straus, B. S. (Mile End)

Dickinson, W. H. (St. Pancras, N.

Molteno, Percy Alport

Summerbell, T.

Duncan, J. H. (York, Otley)

Mond, A.

Sutherland, J. E.

Erskine, David C.

Montagu, Hon. E. S.

Tennant, H. J. (Berwickshire)

Essex, R. W.

Morgan, G. Hay (Cornwall)

Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.)

Esslemont, George Birnie

Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen)

Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton)

Evans, Sir Samuel T.

Murray, Capt. Hn. A. C. (Kincard.)

Thorne, William (West Ham)

Ferens, T. R.

Murray, James (Aberdeen, E.)

Toulmin, George

Foster, Rt. Hon. Sir Walter

Myer, Horatio

Ure, Alexander

Fuller, John Michael F.

Napier, T. B.

Verney, F. W.

Fullerton, Hugh

Nicholls, George

Ward, John (Stoke upon Trent)

Gibb, James (Harrow)

Norman, Sir Henry

Ward, W. Dudley (Southampton

Glendinning, R. G.

Norton, Capt. Cecil William

Wardle, George J.

Gooch, George Peabody (Bath)

Nussey, Thomas Willans

Wason, Rt. Hn. E. (Clackmannan

Grant, Corrie

O'Donnell, C. J. (Walworth)

Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney)

Greenwood, G. (Peterborough)

O'Grady, J.

Waterlow, D. S.

Griffith, Ellis, T.

Partington, Oswald

Wedgwood, Josiah C.

Gurdon, Rt. Hn. Sir W. Brampton

Paulton, James Mellor

White, J. Dundas (Dumbart'nsh)

Harcourt, Rt. Hn. L. (Rossendale

Pearce, Robert (Staffs. Leek)

White, Luke (York, E. R.)

Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose

Pearce, William (Limehouse)

Whitley, John Henry (Halifax)

Hardie, J. Keir (Merthyr Tydvil)

Pickersgill, Edward Hare

Whittaker, Rt. Hn. Sir Thomas P.

Harmsworth, Cecil B. (Worc'r)

Pirie, Duncan V.

Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)

Hart-Davies, T.

Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H.

Wills, Arthur Walters

Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N. E.

Priestley, W. E. B. (Bradford, E.)

Wilson, J. W. (Worcestersh, N.)

Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth)

Pullar, Sir Robert

Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)

Hedges, A. Paget

Radford, G. H.

Winfrey, R.

Helme, Norval Watson

Rainy, A. Rolland

Wood, T. M'Kinnon

Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

Rea, Russell (Gloucester)

Henry, Charles S.

Rea, Walter Russell (Searboro'

TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr.

Herbert, Col. Sir Ivor (Mon., S.)

Rees, J. D.

Joseph Pease and Mr.

Herbert, T. Arnold (Wycombe)

Richards, T. F. (Wolverh'mpt'n

Herbert Lewis.

Question proposed, "That the clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill."
*MR. BOTTOMLBYsaid he opposed the clause as it stood on the ground that it violated to the utmost extent the doctrine of individual liberty
1610
and of equality before the law, which, until he entered that House, he thought it was the special prerogative of the Liberal Party to protect. Under the clause as it now stood, they had the fact that a policeman of a certain rank, provided he received the authority of a

1611
justice of the peace, might enter the premises of a club, and, having entered, make such inspection and inquiries as he thought fit for the purpose of satisfying his superior officers as to how that club was conducted. This clause, if it was put forward in the interests of good clubs, was absolutely useless. If it was put forward as non-class legislation, it was an absolute farce, because no justice of the peace, under any circumstances, would give the policemen permission to enter such a club as the Carlton or the Reform, of one or other of which he was probably a member; he would think it was so ridiculous to say that anything wrong went on there. Further, he would press on the Committee that under the provisions of the Act of 1902, to which not half enough attention had been given in these discussions, there was ample power to cover everything which the Solicitor-General sought to effect by this clause. Under that Act, first of all, they had the list of grounds on which a club for misconduct could be struck off the register. Then they had the provision that, if a justice of the peace were satisfied that any of those grounds were being infringed, a search warrant might be granted, and the police officer, if necessary by the use of force, might enter that club and make inquiries. He submitted that, as a matter of law, there was no difference between the grounds of misconduct in the present Bill and those contained in the Act of 1902, except that this Bill made it an offence that the club should be used mainly for drinking purposes. That was the only additional misconduct on the part of the club as compared with the grounds given in the Act of 1902. Under that Act the words were—
"If the club be used for any unlawful purpose," or "if frequent drunkenness took place."
whereas under the Bill, the words were—
"If the club be used mainly for drinking purposes."
Being unlicensed premises, any magistrate would hold, he submitted with deference and some confidence, that to use unlicensed premises in the guise of a club "mainly for drinking purposes" would be using that club for an "unlaw-
1612
ful purpose." The Solicitor-General smiled.
SIR S. EVANS: I shook my head.
*MR. BOTTOMLEYsaid there was a good deal in that. He had heard before now in the High Court doctrines set up which learned Gentlemen seemed to think improbable. Leaving legal and technical definitions on one side, he would remind the Committee of the strength of the words of the Act of 1902—
"If a justice is satisfied by information on oath"—
—a very necessary provision—
"that there is reasonable ground for supposing that any club is carried on so to as constitute a ground for striking it off the register" etc.—
he might grant a search warrant. Surely this would cover the case of systematic drinking as the main object of the club. The section went on to say that the warrant might be executed, if necessary, by force. What case had been made for adding to that power under the law? What ground had been suggested to the Committee that at the present moment any club in this country, certainly any club in London, was so conducted that the provisions of the Act of 1902 were not adequate? There had been no such suggestion at all. Just see how it would work. A man might be turned out of a club in the constituency which he represented, and where there were more clubs than in any other Metropolitan constituency; and he knew how strict the committees of those clubs were in their endeavour to keep them free from disorderly conduct and disreputable member ship. They frequently expelled members. If a man were expelled on the ground of his being an undesirable member, under this section he would have a grand opportunity of getting a little of his own back. He would go off to the policeman or to the superintendent, and make his complaint. To the superintendent it was the easiest thing in the world; he did not require a sworn information nor any evidence; he listened to the plausible ex parte statement of the disaffected ex-club-member, and then went off to the justice. Again, how easy it was to get the authority of the justice.

1613
If he was a strong temperance man, obviously he would say that it was a case in which drinking was going on, and the club ought to be suppressed. If he happened to be a brewer, obviously he would say that this club was competing with his public-houses, and he would grant a permit. So there would be no trouble in getting authority. It must be borne in mind that they had already arranged by the Bill that once a year every club was to have its membership, its conduct, and its position reviewed by the judicial tribunal, and not by the licensing justices. If once a year the club got a certificate of good character from a Court of Law, if the law as it at present stood said that a club which was used for unlawful purposes, or any of the disqualifying purposes under the Act of 1902, might be raided by force, what more did they want, in the interests of bona fide clubs? There seemed to be a general consensus of opinion on the part of the Committee that bona fide clubs should not be discouraged, but encouraged, if they were properly conducted. This section was inimical to every well-conducted club in the Metropolis. It was all very well for the hon. Member for Barnard Castle to say that these modifications were acceptable to the clubs, but the members of clubs generally were up in arms against the idea that the private life of their clubs should be liable to be invaded by a police officer, whether in plain clothes or in uniform. They regarded it as a matter which took away all sense of security. Every one of those desirable adjuncts of club life—athletic associations, provident funds, sick funds—which depended on annual subscriptions of members, would automatically come to an end. He objected to this clause on the ground that it was a gratuitous and uncalled for interference with the liberty of club life. Above all things, it would only affect the workingmen's club. It was no good for them to pretend there or outside that it was equally applicable to West-End clubs. They would never get a constable authorised to enter any fashionable West-End club. They would easily get it in the case of any working men's club, and especially at the instance of disaffected ex-members of the clubs. He
1614
earnestly begged the Solicitor-General, though he knew it was more or less waste of breath and energy to go into the division lobbies, to consider whether, from the point of view of the Liberal Party, it was not a suicidal thing to set up in arms against them the whole of the working mail's clubs of the country. They were their only refuge until this Bill was produced, against the antagonism of the licensing trade. Now, they had made them join hands, so far as this Bill was concerned, and they had club members and licensed victuallers united to oppose this Bill. If the Liberal Party thought that was a desirable course, they would in their wisdom adopt it. For his part, representing a club constituency, and still having some glimmering recollection of the old doctrines of individual liberty and freedom that used to be the organic foundation of their faith, he strenuously opposed the introduction of any such clause as this into any Bill, and he should do his utmost to make quite clear that he, for one, still believed in the liberty of the subject, and was an opponent of any of this grandmotherly interference, which only tended to sap the self-reliance of the people of the country.
*MR. CARLILEsaid he wished to raise a small drafting point. He thought the word "or" ought to be substituted for the word "and" as the phrase conveyed the impression to any ordinary person that the inspector, whoever he was, must be accompanied by the chief constable. The word "and" was evidently out of place.
SIR S. EVANSsaid he had looked at that. He did not think it was necessary that the two should go together. It gave power to the one and to the other.
MR. A. J. BALFOURsaid the hon. Member for Hackney had asked a question to which no answer had been vouchsafed by the Government. He would endeavour to give the answer. The hon. Member had asked why, since practically the Act of 1902 had given all the effective power they wanted to deal with clubs, these complicated and irritating conditions were introduced. The answer obviously was this. It was quite

1615
true that the Act of 1902 did all that was necessary to deal with clubs. It was quite true that every provision in this Bill dealing with clubs was of a kind which legitimately irritated the members of clubs but did nothing to protect the public against the unlicensed growth of bogus clubs. Though that was absolutely true, nevertheless it was the fact that even this Government could not deal in a drastic manner with the suppression of licences without appearing to deal also with the question of clubs. Though they had not succeeded in obviating in any degree the uncontested evils that would arise from driving people from the public-houses to the clubs, they had at all events pretended to do something and had, therefore, passed the futile and irritating measures of which this clause contained so many examples.
SIR S. EVANSsaid that he did not agree that there was no difference between these provisions and the Act of 1902. It was not the law at the present time that a club if conducted mainly for drinking was used for unlawful purposes. If it was not a club, they were selling liquor on unlicensed premises, but if it was a club, the amount of drinking that went on there did not matter. Frequent drunkenness was dealt with under the Act of 1902, but it was no offence for anybody to get drunk in his club so long as he remained there.
MR. BOTTOMLEY: That is a statutory offence under Section 23 of the Act.
SIR S. EVANS: That is entirely wrong. It is no offence on the part of the man; it is a ground for striking off the club.
*MR. CAVEDoes the Bill make it an offence on the part of the man?
SIR S. EVANSsaid he had never said that it did. He would not make any answer as to the effect of the measure on the Liberal Party. That was a matter which was pertinent on the Second Reading, and possibly upon some clauses in Committee, but it was not exclusively pertinent to this clause.
1616
He preferred to deal with the clauses and Amendments as they came to them, and not to deal with them as if they were Second Reading discussions. The right hon. Gentleman opposite, who had kindly offered to make an answer for him to the hon. Member for Hackney, whom he had so often followed into the division lobby on this measure, had said they did nothing more under the provisions of this Bill to deal with the evils which would arise, and which apparently existed in clubs, than was done under the Act of 1902. If the right hon. Gentleman thought that everything that was necsssary was done under the Act of 1902, away went all his contentions that by the reduction of public-houses they were creating a much greater evil. They attached very great importance to the provision regarding the use of clubs mainly for drinking purposes. That gave a latitude to the justices who would act judicially when they interpreted it, and if there were nothing else in the provisions dealing with clubs in this Bill which was not in the Act of 1902, that alone was sufficient authority for him to ask the Committee to pass the clause. It dealt only with inspection which they thought was necessary in some cases where perhaps it was not justifiable to apply for a search warrant. They provided proper safeguards, as had been admitted, and they were dealing not merely with existing clubs, but with clubs that were going to exist in future, and it was a right and wise provision to enable periodic inspection to take place by the officer whom they had provided for the purpose. The hon. Member for Hackney asked why they did that when there was an opportunity of objecting to the renewal of the club each January. What was the use of giving an opportunity of objecting to the club if they withheld from the police officer the power of inspection? It was for the very purpose of getting information, to which it might be useful to direct the attention of the justices, that they thought this power was necessary and desirable. Irritation was not the intention, and it would not be the effect. It was for the purpose of seeing whether things were going on on the club premises which it would be right: to bring to the attention of the justices.
MR. RAWLINSONasked if they had not now arrived at the time when every person who had tried to keep an open mind on the whole of this Bill must come to the conclusion that in dealing with this most important question of clubs the Government were deliberately giving them what was nothing more or less than an insult. It was idle to attack public-houses as they had done when they were simply substituting clubs for "pubs." Unless they made an effort to deal with the club question the rest of the Bill was a mere farce and a delusion. The Solicitor-General had tried to differentiate the new powers which the Bill was to give. He had said that under the Act of 1902 it was not an offence for a man to be drunk on his club premises. It was not an offence under this Bill.
SIR S. EVANS: I did not say it was.
MR. RAWLINSONasked why, then, the Solicitor-General instanced it. Under the Act of 1902 if drunkenness was allowed it was an offence against the club. It remained so still. What possible addition had this Bill made except these extraordinary words "used mainly as a drinking club," which he had tried to get made more specific and more detailed, but the Government would not have it? Was it not merely a shop window business? He should certainly vote against this particular clause, because it was an absolute delusion and a sham. Could they imagine anything more farcical? They sent a police constable into a club. What was he to do—this man without uniform but with regulation boots? He was to walk into any club, and if he found a man drunk there he could not do anything. It was a perfect insult to the club to start with, and it was a perfect farce and a delusion that he could do nothing when he got inside but simply remain there—an annoyance to the members. It had been pointed out time after time that under the Act of 1902, if there was any real belief that anything illegal was going on, there was nothing easier than to get a search warrant, and that power was used in the case of gambling clubs
1618
in the West End as well as in the East End. This Bill lent no sort of assistance to the present methods of dealing with clubs. He had voted with the Government on many of these club clauses, but he should certainly oppose as strongly as he could such ridiculous suggestions as these, which were a mere insult to clubs and to the Committee to whom they were suggested. No one could believe it was in the least likely to be an adequate section or tend to temperance in any way.
MR. LYTTELTONsaid he proposed to make two or three remarks in order to obtain from the Solicitor-General a precise answer, if possible, to the question put by the hon. Member for Hackney, who had stated in point of fact that Section 28 of the 1902 Act did everything for the protection of the public against drinking clubs that was done by this Bill. His right hon. friend had enforced that contention. The Solicitor-General had said that the Government, and he himself, attached immense importance to the expression in Section 37 of this Bill "to be used mainly as a drinking club," and he gathered there was a belief that there was greater latitude and elasticity for justices to make decisions adverse to clubs under those words than under any words in the section of the Act of 1902. Would the Solicitor-General say what additional latitude and elasticity would be given to the justices by the use of the expression "used mainly as a drinking club" that was not conferred by the sections which he would read? Under the Act of 1902 a club might be struck off—
"If it is not conducted in good faith as a club, if persons who are not members are habitually admitted to the club merely for the purpose of obtaining intoxicating liquor, and if there is frequent drunkenness on the club premises."
What possible latitude or elasticity existed for justices under Section 37 which did not exist under those three sub-clauses of Section 28? He would be very glad if the Solicitor-General could answer that question clearly, because in his opinion if it was not answered satisfactorily it was perfectly obvious that this clause and Part IV. of the Bill were an elaborate pretence. He awaited the hon. and learned Gentleman's answer before he said it was an

1619
elaborate pretence, but if there was no satisfactory answer he should certainly say it was.
SIR S. EVANSsaid he would reply directly, and he hoped clearly, to the points which had been raised. He did not need to deal with the sub-head applying to the supplying of intoxicating liquors to non-members, and he would confine himself to the question of premises not conducted in good faith as a club. A club was an association of people who bought their drink and food in the club. A club would be no less a club although its sole object was to distribute drink amongst its members. [OPPOSITION Cries of "Oh!"] The phrase about "conducted in good faith" referred to clubs which pretended to be clubs belonging to members, but which were proprietary clubs. As to "frequent drunkenness," they could not get rid of a club under the clause of the Act of 1902 unless a bench of magistrates could be persuaded that not only drunkenness, but frequent drunkenness occurred. There could be a constant supply of drink without drunkenness, and there could be drunkenness without frequent drunkenness. He would give a concrete case. Supposing there was a club which consisted only of a bar and a room for the steward. It would be obvious that such a club existed solely as a drinking club; but they had no power under the Act of 1902 to get rid of a club of that kind.
MR. LYTTELTON: Yes, they could under subsection 2 of Section 28.
SIR S. EVANS: Did the right hon. Gentleman think that a club could be got rid of under the Act of 1902 if it could not be proved that there was frequent drunkenness, and not merely on the ground that the existence of the club was due to drinking?
MR. LYTTELTONsaid that if the club had only a bar, it would be liable to be struck off under Section 28, sub-head (2) of the Act of 1902, for the Act provided that for the purpose of determining whether it was conducted in good faith as a club, regard should be had to the nature of the premises. Manifestly, if the club
1620
premises consisted only of a bar and a steward's room they would be hit under that clause.
SIR S. EVANSsaid he entirely disagreed with the right hon. Gentleman, and he challenged him to produce a single instance where a club had been closed if there had been nothing in the nature of frequent drunkenness. He would put to the Committee another case. Supposing they had a magnificent pile of buildings like the Carlton Club, to which no objection could be made as premises, supposing the place was big enough for a coffee-room, smoking-room, and so forth, but nothing was done in those premises and only one room was used for the purpose of drinking: they could not get rid of a club of that kind under the Act of 1902.
MR. WILLIAM RUTHERFORD: There is no such club in existence.
SIR S. EVANSreplied that that was not the question put to him by the right hon. Gentleman. What he wanted to know was, what were the differences between the provisions of this Bill and the Act of 1902. Another difference between the two was that the Government gave the opportunity every year to people, who might know something about these clubs, to object to their renewal. That was not in the Act of 1902. Beyond that the power of inspection was given. That, would enable evidence to be collected which would give the justices power to say that the registration of the club should not be renewed.
LORD R. CECILsaid they now understood what the whole purpose of this provision about drinking clubs really meant. It was to deal with a club which had buildings like the Carlton and only used one room for drinking purposes. That was the only instance the Solicitor-General had been able to give.
SIR S. EVANS: I said that it did not matter what the character of the premises might be. The club could not be shut up under the Act of 1902, unless it was proved that there was frequent drunkenness.
LORD R. CECILsaid the right hon. Gentleman the Member for St. George's Hanover Square, had asked: "Where is the club hit by your words which was not hit by our words under the Act of 1902?" What did "mainly used as a drinking club" mean? Personally, he regarded that provision as a matter of the greatest possible danger. He did not know what those words meant, and he did not think any hon. Member opposite did. Was it to be a mere matter of chance for the justices to determine what they meant? Just after this Bill was introduced he was asked to attend a meeting of a non-political club in his constituency, the members of which were mainly Radicals, in order that he might hear their views about the Bill. One and all of those who spoke singled out this clause as the most objectionable of all. They said that any superintendent of police, or police officer, might come into the club and, seeing some member tired out and dozing in the corner, shake him up to see if he was drunk. They said: "You will not see the police doing that in the Reform Club." He told them he had great confidence in the police; but even in that excellent body there were some who were not so good as others, and they said: "What an opportunity it gives for such a man to go in, and, unless he is treated in a proper manner and given all the advantages of the club, to make an unfair report."
That was the kind of objection they made, and it was futile for the Solicitor-General to say that no hardship would exist or was apprehended by working men. He was sure that his constituents—men who voted against him at his election—would not be satisfied with the modifications which had been made in this clause. The Committee ought to be careful how they assented to it. When the Solicitor-General was challenged to show what this inspection was going to do in enforcing temperance, he replied that it would enable them to see which were drinking clubs, and when the hon. and learned Gentleman was asked what were drinking clubs, he could only give the ridiculous instance he had given that afternoon.
MR. WILLIAM RUTHERFORDsaid the main objection he had to this clause was that it would not apply to the clubs of one class of people, but it would apply in a most objectionable manner to the clubs of the lower section of the community. That was neither English nor fair, and it was treating one class of society in one way and another class in another way.
Question put.
The Committee divided:—Ayes, 205; Noes, 86. (Division List No. 342.)

AYES.

Acland, Francis Dyke

Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn

Dobson, Thomas W.

Adkins, W. Ryland D.

Burns, Rt. Hon. John

Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness

Agar-Robartes, Hon. T. C. R.

Buxton, Rt. Hn. Sydney Charles

Duncan, J. H. (York, Otley)

Agnew, George William

Byles, William Pollard

Erskine, David C.

Ainsworth, John Stirling

Cameron, Robert

Essex, R. W.

Allen, Charles P. (Stroud)

Carr-Gomm, H. W.

Esslemont, George Birnie

Baker, Joseph A. (Finsbury, E.)

Channing, Sir Francis Allston

Evans, Sir Samuel T.

Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight)

Cheetham, John Frederick

Faber, G. H. (Boston)

Barker, John

Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston S.

Ferens, T. R.

Barlow, Percy (Bedford)

Clough, William

Foster, Rt. Hon. Sir Walter

Barnard, E. B.

Cobbold, Felix Thornley

Fullerton, Hugh

Barnes, G. N.

Collins, Stephen (Lambeth)

Gibb, James (Harrow)

Barran, Rowland Hirst

Collins, Sir Wm. J. (S. Pancras, W.

Glen-Coats, Sir T. (Renfrew, W.

Beale, W. P.

Cooper, G. J.

Glendinning, R. G.

Beaumont, Hon. Hubert

Corbett, C. H. (Sussex, E. Grinst'd

Gooch, George Peabody (Bath)

Berridge, T. H. D.

Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.

Grant, Corrie

Bethell, T. R. (Essex, Maldon)

Cory, Sir Clifford John

Greenwood, G. (Peterborough

Black, Arthur W.

Cotton, Sir H. J. S.

Griffith, Ellis J.

Brace, William

Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth)

Gurdon, Rt. Hn. Sir W. Brampton

Branch, James

Crooks, William.

Harcourt, Rt. Hn. L. (Rossendale

Bridgeman, W. Clive

Cross, Alexander

Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose)

Brocklehurst, W. B.

Curran, Peter Francis

Hardie, J. Keir (Merthyr Tydvil)

Brunner, J. F. L. (Lancs., Leigh)

Davies, M. Vaughan- ((Cardigan

Hardy, George A. (Suffolk)

Brunner, Rt. Hn. Sir J. T. (Cheshire

Davies, Timothy (Fulham)

Harmsworth, Cecil B. (Worc'r)

Bryce, J. Annan

Dickinson, W. H. (St. Pancras, N.

Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N. E.

Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth)

Menzies, Walter

Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie

Hedges, A. Paget

Molteno, Percy Alport

Snowden, P.

Helme, Norval Watson

Mond, A.

Soames, Arthur Wellesley

Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

Montagu, Hon. E. S.

Soares, Ernest J.

Henderson, J. M. (Aberdeen, W.)

Morgan, G. Hay (Cornwall)

Stanger, H. Y.

Henry, Charles S.

Morton, Alpheus Cleophas

Stanley, Hn. A. Lyulph (Chesh.)

Herbert, Col. Sir Ivor (Mon., S.

Murray, James (Aberdeen, E.)

Stewart, Halley (Greenock)

Herbert, T. Arnold (Wycombe)

Myer, Horatio

Strachey, Sir Edward

Higham, John Sharp

Nicholls, George

Straus, B. S. (Mile End)

Hodge, John

Norman, Sir Henry

Summerbell, T.

Holland, Sir William Henry

Norton, Capt. Cecil William

Sutherland, J. E.

Hooper, A. G.

Nussey, Thomas Willans

Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)

Horridge, Thomas Gardner

O'Donnell, C. J. (Walworth)

Tennant, H. J. (Berwickshire)

Hudson, Walter

Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek)

Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.

Hutton, Alfred Eddison

Pearce, William (Limehouse

Thomasson, Franklin

Jackson, R. S.

Philipps, Owen C. (Pembroke)

Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton

Jacoby, Sir James Alfred

Pirie, Duncan V.

Torrance, Sir A. M.

Jardine, Sir J.

Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H.

Toulmin, George

Jones, Sir D. Brynmor (Swansea

Pullar, Sir Robert

Trevelyan, Charles Philips

Jones, Leif (Appleby)

Radford, G. H.

Verney, F. W.

Joynson-Hicks, William

Rainy, A. Holland

Ward, John (Stoke upon Trent)

Kekewich, Sir George

Rea, Russell (Gloucester)

Ward, W. Dudley (Southampton

Laidlaw, Robert

Rea, Walter Russell (Scarboro'

Wardle, George J.

Lamb, Ernest H. (Rochester)

Rees, J. D.

Wason, Rt. Hn. E. (Clackmannan

Lamont, Norman

Richards, T. F. (Wolverh'mpt'n

Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney)

Layland-Barratt, Sir Francis

Richardson, A.

Waterlow, D. S.

Leese, Sir Joseph F. (Acrington

Ridsdale, E. A.

Watt, Henry A.

Lever, A. Levy (Essex, Harwich

Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)

Wedgwood, Josiah C.

Lloyd-George, Rt. Hon. David

Roberts, G. H. (Norwich)

White, J. Dundas Dumbart'nsh

Lupton, Arnold

Robertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradf'rd

White, Luke (York, E. R.)

Luttrell, Hugh Fownes

Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside)

Whitley, John Henry (Halifax)

Lyell, Charles Henry

Robinson, S.

Whittaker, Rt. Hn. Sir Thomas P.

Lynch, H. B.

Roch, Walter F. (Pembroke)

Wiles, Thomas

Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester)

Roe, Sir Thomas

Williams, Osmond (Merioneth]

Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk B'ghs

Rose, Charles Day

Williamson, A.

Mackarness, Frederic C.

Russell, Rt. Hon. T. W.

Wills, Arthur Walters

Maclean, Donald

Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)

Wilson, Henry J. (York. W. R.)

Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.

Scarisbrick, T. T. L.

Winfrey, R.

M'Callum, John M.

Schwann, C. Duncan (Hyde)

Wood, T. M'Kinnon

M'Laren, Sir C. B. (Leicester)

Sears, J. E.

Yoxall, James Henry

M'Micking, Major G.

Seaverns, J. H.

Mallet, Charles E.

Shaw, Rt. Hon. T. (Hawick B.)

TELLERS FOR THE AYES—MR.

Mansfield, H. Rendall (Lincoln)

Shipman, Dr. John G.

Joseph Pease and Mr. Herbert

Marks, G. Croydon (Launceston)

Sinclair, Rt. Hon. John

Lewis.

Marnham, F. J.

Sloan, Thomas Henry

NOES.

Anstruther-Gray, Major

Duncan, Robert (Lanark, Govan

MacCaw, William J. MacGeagh

Arkwright, John Stanhope

Fardell, Sir T. George

M'Arthur, Charles

Aubrey-Fletcher, Rt. Hn. Sir H.

Fletcher, J. S.

Magnus, Sir Philip

Balcarres, Lord

Gardner, Ernest

Mason, A. E. W. (Coventry)

Baldwin, Stanley

Goulding, Edward Alfred

Morrison-Bell, Captain

Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (City Lond)

Gretton, John

Nicholson, Wm. G. (Petersfield)

Banbury, Sir Frederick George

Guinness, Hon. R. (Haggerston

Nolan, Joseph

Barrie, H. T. (Londonderry, N.)

Guinness, W. E. (Bury S. Edm.)

Oddy, John James

Bignold, Sir Arthur

Harris, Frederick Leverton

O'Grady, J.

Bowerman, C. W.

Harrison-Broadley, H. B.

Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington

Bowles, G. Stewart

Helmsley, Viscount

Percy, Earl

Brooke, Stopford

Hill, Sir Clement

Pickersgill, Edward Hare

Butcher, Samuel Henry

Hills, J. W.

Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

Carlile, E. Hildred

Houston, Robert Paterson

Randles, Sir John Scurrah

Cave, George

Hunt, Rowland

Rasch, Sir Frederic Carne

Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

Kerry, Earl of

Ratcliff, Major R. F.

Cecil, Lord R. (Marylebone, E.)

Kimber, Sir Henry

Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel

Clive, Percy Archer

Lee, Arthur H. (Hants, Fareham

Remnant, James Farquharson

Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

Lockwood, Rt. Hn. Lt.-Col. A. R.

Renton, Leslie

Courthope, G. Loyd

Long, Col. Charles W. Evesham

Renwick, George

Craig, Charles Curtis (Antrim, S.

Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Dublin, S)

Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall)

Craig, Captain James (Down, E.)

Lonsdale, John Rrownlee

Ronaldshay, Earl of

Craik, Sir Henry

Lowe, Sir Francis William

Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool)

Dixon-Hartland, Sir Fred Dixon

Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred

Salter, Arthur Clavell

1624

1625

Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert

Thornton, Percy M.

Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

Stanier, Beville

Valentia, Viscount

Young, Samuel

Starkey, John R.

Walker, Col. W. H. (Lancashire

Steadman, W. C.

Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E. R.)

TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr.

Talbot, Rt. Hn. J. G. (Oxf'd Univ

Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)

Bottomley and Mr. George

Thorne, William (West Ham)

Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart

D. Faber.

Clause 42:
MR. BLACKmoved an Amendment to insert after "club" the following words, "after the hours at which licensed houses are closed in the licensing district in which the club is situated, nor shall intoxicating liquor be supplied in a club." He said that that was the only way in which to secure that all clubs would receive equal treatment. He believed it would remove a legitimate grievance which the licence-holders had at the present time. Clubs were allowed to sell liquor as long as they kept their doors open, and in that way became most unfair competitors with the public-houses in towns and villages. If the Government were anxious to secure real temperance reform, and if the Members of the Opposition desired to co-operate in that object, they would support him in the division lobby.
Amendment proposed—
"In page 20, line 28, after the word 'club,' to insert the words 'after the hours at which licensed houses are closed in the licensing district in which the club is situated, nor shall intoxicating liquor be supplied in a club.'"—(Mr. Black.)
Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."
MR. HERBERT SAMUELsaid the Government could not accept the Amendment. They thought that public opinion would not sanction clubs being placed on the same footing as public-houses. The Royal Commission for various reasons
drew a clear distinction between the two, and laid it down that a club ought not to be dealt with in the same way as a licensed house.
*MR. LUTTRELLthought this was an extremely important Amendment. This Bill was a Bill to prevent excessive drinking, and to do this the Government were going to close a considerable number of public-houses. One of the objections brought against the Bill generally was that while they were closing public-houses, they were still leaving drinking facilities in other places. That objection had been raised, too, on the ground of the Government treatment not being equal. People might say that while the poorer men would be prevented from getting their drinks in the public-houses, those who could afford to belong to clubs would be able to get what drinks they pleased. This Amendment, if accepted, would get rid of that objection. He could not see that there was any great hardship in saying to clubs that they should not be able to supply drink to their members except at those times when it could be supplied in public-houses. The State had already laid down what, in the interests of the public, those hours should be. In the interest of temperance the Amendment was one which ought to be supported.
Question put.
The Committee divided:—Ayes, 61; Noes, 222. (Division List No. 343.)

AYES.

Agar-Robartes, Hon. T. C. R.

Craik, Sir Henry

Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N. E.

Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight)

Cross, Alexander

Henry, Charles S.

Barnard, E. B.

Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness

Higham, John Sharp

Barnes, G. N.

Ferens, T. R.

Hodge, John

Barrie, H. T. (Londonderry, N.)

Fullerton, Hugh

Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield]

Bertram, Julius

Glendinning, R. G.

Hudson, Walter

Branch, James

Gooch, George Peabody (Bath)

Hutton, Alfred Eddison

Byles, William Pollard

Grant, Corrie

Jones, Leif (Appleby)

Cameron, Robert

Gurdon, Rt. Hn. Sir W. Brampton

Kincaid-Smith, Captain

Cecil, Lord R. (Marylebone, E.)

Hardie, J. Keir (Merthyr Tydvil)

Lamb, Ernest H. (Rochester)

Clough, William

Hardy, George A. (Suffolk)

Lonsdale, John Brownlee

Lowe, Sir Francis William

Ridsdale, E. A.

Verney, F. W.

Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred

Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)

Walker, Col. W. H. (Lancashire)

Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester

Robinson, S.

Wardle, George J.

Mackarness, Frederic C.

Rutherford, V. H. (Brentford)

Wedgwood, Josiah C.

Maclean, Donald

Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool)

White, Sir George (Norfolk)

M'Arthur, Charles

Snowden, P.

Winfrey, R.

Nicholls, George

Stanley, Hn. A. Lyulph (Chesh.)

Nussey, Thomas Willans

Steadman, W. C.

TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr.

Randles, Sir John Sourrah

Sutherland, J. E.

Black and Mr. Lattrell.

Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel

Talbot, Rt. Hn. J. G. (Oxf'd Univ

Richardson, A.

Thorne, William (West Ham)

NOES.

Acland, Francis Dyke

Davies, Timothy (Fulham)

Lockwood, Rt. Hn. Lt.-Col. A. R.

Agnew, George William

Dickinson, W. H. (St. Pancras, N.

Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham)

Ainsworth, John Stirling

Dobson, Thomas W.

Lupton, Arnold

Alden, Percy

Duncan, J. H. (York, Otley)

Lyell, Charles Henry

Allen, Charles P. (Stroud)

Duncan, Robert (Lanark, Govan

Lynch, H. B.

Anstruther-Gray, Major

Erskine, David C.

Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.

Astbury, John Meir

Essex, R. W.

M'Callum, John M.

Aubrey-Fletcher, Rt. Hon. Sir H.

Esslemont, George Birnie

M'Laren, Sir C. B. (Leicester)

Baker, Joseph A. (Finsbury, E.)

Evans, Sir Samuel T.

M'Micking, Major G.

Balcarres, Lord

Faber, George Denison (York)

Magnus, Sir Philip

Barbury, Sir Frederick George

Faber, G. H. (Boston)

Mallet, Charles E.

Barker, John

Fardell, Sir T. George

Mansfield, H. Rendall (Lincoln)

Barlow, Percy (Bedford)

Fletcher, J. S.

Marks, G. Croydon (Launceston]

Barran, Rowland Hirst

Foster, Rt. Hon. Sir Walter

Marnham, F. J.

Beale, W. P.

Gardner, Ernest

Massie, J.

Beaumont, Hon. Hubert

Glen-Coats, Sir T. (Renfrew, W.

Menzies, Walter

Benn, W. (T'w'r Hamlets, S. Geo.

Goulding, Edward Alfred

Molteno, Percy Alport

Berridge, T. H. D.

Greenwood, G. (Peterborough)

Mond, A.

Bethell, T. R. (Essex Maldon)

Gretton, John

Morpeth, Viscount

Bignold, Sir Arthur

Griffith, Ellis, J.

Morrison-Bell, Captain

Bottomley, Horatio

Guinness, Hon. R. (Haggerston)

Morton, Alpheus Cleophas

Bowerman, C. W.

Guinness, W. E. (Bury S. Edm.)

Murray, James (Aberdeen, E.]

Bowles, G. Stewart

Haldane, Rt. Hon. Richard B.

Myer, Horatio

Brace, William

Harcourt, Rt. Hn. L. (Rossendale

Nicholson, Wm. G. (Petersfield)

Bridgeman, W. Clive

Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose

Norman, Sir Henry

Brocklehurst, W. B.

Harmsworth, Cecil B. (Worc'r)

Norton, Capt. Cecil William

Brodie, H. C.

Harrison-Broadley, H. B.

Oddy, John James

Brooke, Stopford

Hart-Davies, T.

O'Donnell, C. J. (Walworth)

Brunner, J. F. L. (Lancs., Leigh)

Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth)

O'Grady, J.

Brunner, Rt. Hn. Sir. J. T. (Cheshire

Hedges, A. Paget

Paulton, James Mellor

Bryce, J. Annan

Helmsley, Viscount

Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek)

Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn

Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

Pearce, William (Limehouse)

Burns, Rt. Hon. John

Henderson, J. M. (Aberdeen, W.)

Percy, Earl

Butcher, Samuel Henry

Herbert, Col. Sir Ivor (Mon., S.)

Philipps, Owen C. (Pembroke)

Buxton, Rt. Hn. Sydney Charles

Herbert, T. Arnold (Wycombe)

Pirie, Duncan V.

Carlile, E. Hildred

Hill, Sir Clement

Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H.

Carr-Gomm, H. W.

Hills, J. W.

Pullar, Sir Robert

Cave, George

Holland, Sir William Henry

Radford, G. H.

Cawley, Sir Frederick

Hooper, A. G.

Rainy, A. Rolland

Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

Horniman, Emslie John

Rasch, Sir Frederic Carne

Channing, Sir Francis Allston

Horridge, Thomas Gardner

Ratcliff, Major R. F.

Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston S.

Houston, Robert Paterson

Rea, Russell (Gloucester)

Clive, Percy Archer

Hunt, Rowland

Rea, Walter Russell (Searboro')

Cobbold, Felix Thornley

Isaacs, Rufus Daniel

Rees, J. D.

Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

Jackson, R. S.

Remnant, James Farquharson

Collins, Sir Wm. J. (S. Pancras, W.

Jacoby, Sir James Alfred

Renton, Leslie

Cooper, G. J.

Jardine, Sir J.

Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall)

Corbett, C. H. (Sussex, E. Grinst'd

Jones, Sir D. Brynmor (Swansea)

Robertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradf'rd

Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.

Kekewich, Sir George

Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside)

Cotton, Sir H. J. S.

Kerry, Earl of

Robson, Sir William Snowdon

Courthope, G. Loyd

Kimber, Sir Henry

Roch, Walter F. (Pembroke)

Craig, Charles Curtis (Antrim, S.)

Laidlaw, Robert

Roe, Sir Thomas

Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth)

Lamont, Norman

Ronaldshay, Earl of

Craig, Captain James (Down, E.)

Layland-Borratt, Sir Francis

Rose, Charles Day

Crooks, William

Lee, Arthur H. (Hants, Fareham

Russell, Rt. Hon. T. W.

Crosfield, A. H.

Leese, Sir Joseph F. (Accrington

Salter, Arthur Clavell

Curran, Peter Francis

Lever, A. Levy (Essex, Harwch)

Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)

Davies, M. Vaughan- (Cardigan

Lloyd-George, Rt. Hon. David

Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert

1628

1629

Scarisbrick, T. T. L.

Summerbell, T.

Whittaker, Rt. Hn.Sir ThomasP.

Schwann, C. Duncan (Hyde)

Tennant, H. J. Berwickshire)

Wiles, Thomas

Seaverns, J. H.

Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.

Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)

Shaw, Rt. Hon. T. (Hawick B.)

Thompson, J. W. H. (Somerset E)

Williamson, A.

Shipman, Dr. John G.

Thornton, Percy M.

Wills, Arthur Walters

Sinclair, Rt. Hon. John

Torrance, Sir A. M.

Wilson, A. Stanley (York. E. R.]

Sloan, Thomas Henry

Toulmin, George

Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)

Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie

Trevelyan, Charles Philips

Wood, T. M'Kinnon

Soames, Arthur Wellesley

Walters, John Tudor

Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-

Soares, Ernest J.

Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent)

Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

Spicer, Sir Albert

Ward, W. Dudley (Southampton

Young, Samuel

Stanger, H. Y.

Wason, Rt. Hn. E. (Clackmannan

Yoxall, James Henry

Stanier, Reville

Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney)

Starkey, John R.

Waterlow, D. S.

TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr.

Stewart, Halley (Greenock)

Watt, Henry A.

Joseph Pease and Mr. Herbert

Stewart-Smith, D. (Kendal)

White, J. Dundas (Dumbart'nsh

Lewis.

Strachey, Sir Edward

White, Luke (York, E. R.)

Straus, B. S. (Mile End)

Whitley, John Henry (Halifax)

Amendment proposed—
"In page 20, line 29, to leave out from the word 'premises' to the end of line 30."—(Mr. Herbert Samuel.)
Amendment agreed to.
Question put, "That the clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill."
The Committee divided:—Ayes, 228; Noes, 79. (Division List No. 344.)

AYES.

Acland, Francis Dyke

Collins, Sir Wm. J. (S. Pancras, W.

Henry, Charles S.

Adkins, W. Ryland D.

Corbett, C. H. (Sussex, E. Grinst'd

Herbert, Col. Sir Ivor (Mon., S.)

Agar-Robartes, Hon. T. C. R.

Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.

Herbert, T. Arnold (Wycombe)

Ainsworth, John Stirling

Cory, Sir Clifford John

Higham, John Sharp

Alden, Percy

Cotton, Sir H. J. S.

Hodge, John

Allen, Charles P. (Stroud)

Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth)

Holland, Sir William Henry

Asquith, Rt. Hn. Herbert Henry

Crooks, William

Hooper, A. G.

Astbury, John Meir

Crosfield, A. H.

Horniman, Emslie John

Baker, Joseph A. (Finsbury, E.)

Curran, Peter Francis

Horridge, Thomas Gardner

Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight)

Davies, M. Vaughan- (Cardigan

Hudson, Walter

Barker, John

Davies, Timothy (Fulham)

Hutton, Alfred Eddison

Barlow, Percy (Bedford)

Dickinson, W. H. (St. Pancras, N.

Hyde, Clarendon

Barnard, E. B.

Dixon-Hartland, Sir Fred Dixon

Isaacs, Rufus Daniel

Barnes, G. N.

Dobson, Thomas W.

Jacoby, Sir James Alfred

Barran, Rowland Hirst

Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness

Jardine, Sir J.

Beale, W. P.

Duncan, J. H. (York, Otley)

Jones, Sir D. Brynmor (Swansea

Beaumont, Hon. Hubert

Erskine, David C.

Jones, Leif (Appleby)

Bellairs, Carlyon

Essex, R. W.

Kekewich, Sir George

Benn, W. (T'w'r Hamlets, S. Geo.

Esslemont, George Birnie

Laidlaw, Robert

Berridge, T. H. D.

Evans, Sir Samuel T.

Lamb, Ernest H. (Rochester)

Bethell, T. R. (Essex, Maldon)

Faber, G. H. (Boston)

Lamont, Norman

Black, Arthur W.

Ferens, T. R.

Layland-Barratt, Sir Francis

Bottomley, Horatio

Foster, Rt. Hon. Sir Walter

Leese, Sir Joseph F. (Accrington

Brace, William

Fullerton, Hugh

Lever, A. Levy (Essex, Harwich)

Branch, James

Gibb, James (Harrow)

Lloyd-George, Rt. Hon. David

Brocklehurst, W. B.

Glen-Coats, Sir T. (Renfrew, W.

Lupton, Arnold

Brodie, H. C.

Glendinning, R. G.

Luttrell, Hugh Fownes

Brooke, Stopford

Gooch, George Peabody (Bath)

Lyell, Charles Henry

Brunner, J. F. L. (Lancs., Leigh)

Grant, Corrie

Lynch, H. B.

Bryce, J. Annan

Greenwood, G. (Peterborough)

Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred

Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn

Griffith, Ellis J.

Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester)

Burns, Rt. Hon. John

Gurdon, Rt. Hn. Sir W. Brampton

Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk B'ghs

Buxton, Rt. Hn. Sydney Charles

Haldane, Rt. Hon. Richard B.

Mackarness, Frederic C.

Byles, William Pollard

Harcourt, Rt. Hn. L. (Rossendale

Maclean, Donald

Cameron, Robert

Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose)

Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.

Cave, George

Hardie, J. Keir (Merthyr Tydvil)

M'Callum, John M.

Cawley, Sir Frederick

Hardy, George A. (Suffolk)

M'Laren, Sir C. B. (Leicester)

Channing, Sir Francis Allston

Harmsworth, Cecil B. (Worc'r)

M'Micking, Major G.

Cheetham, John Frederick

Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N. E.

Mallet, Charles E.

Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston S.

Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth)

Mansfield, H. Rendall (Lincoln)

Clough, William

Hedges, A. Paget

Marks, G. Croydon (Launceston)

Cobbold, Felix Thornley

Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

Marnham, F. J.

Collins, Stephen (Lambeth)

Henderson,. J. M. (Aberdeen, W.)

Massie, J.

Menzies, Walter

Robinson, S.

Thomasson, Franklin

Molteno, Percy Alport

Robson, Sir William Snowdon

Thompson, J. W. H. (Somerset, E.

Mond, A.

Roch, Walter F. (Pembroke)

Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton)

Montagu, Hon. E. S.

Roe, Sir Thomas

Torrance, Sir A. M.

Morgan, G. Hay (Cornwall)

Rose, Charles Day

Toulmin, George

Morpeth, Viscount

Russell, Rt. Hon. T. W.

Trevelyan, Charles Philips

Morton, Alpheus Cleophas

Rutherford, V. H. (Brentford)

Verney, F. W.

Murray, James (Aberdeen, E.)

Salter, Arthur Clavell

Walters, John Tudor

Myer, Horatio

Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)

Ward, John (Stoke upon Trent)

Nicholls, George

Scarisbrick, T. T. L.

Ward, W. Dudley (Southampton

Norman, Sir Henry

Sears, J. E.

Wardle, George J.

Norton, Capt. Cecil William

Seaverns, J. H.

Wason, Rt. Hn. E. (Clackmannan

Nussey,. Thomas Willans

Shaw, Rt. Hon. T. (Hawick B.)

Wason, John Catheart (Orkney)

O'Donnell, C. J. (Walworth)

Shipman, Dr. John G.

Waterlow, D. S.

Paulton, James Mellor

Sinclair, Rt. Hon. John

Watt, Henry A.

Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek)

Sloan, Thomas Henry

Wedgwood, Josiah C.

Pearce, William (Limehouse)

Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie

While, Sir George (Norfolk)

Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington

Snowden, P.

White, J. Dundas (Dumbart'nsh

Philipps, Owen C. (Pembroke)

Soames, Arthur Wellesley

White, Luke (York, E. R.)

Pickersgill, Edward Hare

Soares, Ernest J.

Whitley, John Henry (Halifax)

Pirie, Duncan V.

Spicer, Sir Albert

Whittaker, Rt. Hn. Sir Thomas P.

Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H.

Stanger, H. Y.

Wiles, Thomas

Pullar, Sir Robert

Stanley, Hn. A. Lyulph (Chesh.)

Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)

Radford, G. H.

Steadman, W. C.

Williamson, A.

Rainy, A. Rolland

Stewart, Halley (Greenock)

Wills, Arthur Walters

Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel

Stewart-Smith, D. (Kendal)

Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E. R.)

Rea, Russell (Gloucester)

Strachey, Sir Edward

Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R.)

Rea, Walter Russell (Scarboro'

Straus, B. S. (Mile End)

Winfrey, R.

Rees, J. D.

Summerbell, T.

Wood, T. M'Kinnon

Richards, T. F. (Wolverh'mpt'n

Sutherland, J. E.

Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-

Richardson, A.

Talbot, Rt. Hn. J. G. (Oxf'd Univ.

Yoxall, James Hemy

Ridsdale, E. A.

Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)

TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr.

Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)

Tennant, H. J. (Berwickshire)

Joseph Pease and Mr. Herbert

Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside)

Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.)

Lewis.

NOES.

Anstruther-Gray, Major

Goulding, Edward Alfred

Percy, Earl

Aubrey-Fletcher, Rt. Hon. Sir H.

Gretton, John

Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

Balcarres, Lord

Guinness, Hon. R. (Haggerston)

Randles, Sir John Seurrah

Baldwin, Stanley

Guinness, W. E. (Bury S. Edm.)

Rasch, Sir Frederic Carne

Banbury, Sir Frederick George

Harrison-Broadley, H. B.

Ratcliff, Major R. F.

Barrie, H. T. (Londonderry, N.)

Helmsley, Viscount

Remnant, James Farquharson

Bertram, Julius

Hill, Sir Clement

Renton, Leslie

Bignold, Sir Arthur

Hills, J. W.

Renwick, George

Bowerman, C. W.

Houston, Robert Paterson

Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall)

Bowles, G. Stewart

Hunt, Rowland

Ronaldshay, Earl of

Bridgeman, W. Clive

Jackson, R. S.

Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool)

Butcher, Samuel Henry

Kerry, Earl of

Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert

Carlile, E. Hildred

Kimber, Sir Henry

Schwann, C. Duncan (Hyde)

Carr-Gomm, H. W.

King, Sir Henry Seymour (Hull)

Stanier, Beville

Cecil, Lord R. (Marylebone, E.)

Lee, Arthur H. (Hants, Fareham

Starkey, John R.

Clive, Percy Archer

Lockwood, Rt. Hn. Lt.-Col. A. R.

Thorne, William (West Ham)

Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham

Thornton, Percy M.

Cooper, G. J.

Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Dublin, S.)

Valentia, Viscount

Courthope, G. Loyd

Lonsdale, John Brownlee

Walker, Col. W. H. (Lancashire)

Craig, Charles Curtis (Antrim, S.

Lowe, Sir Francis William

White, Patrick (Meath, North)

Craig, Captain James (Down, E)

MacCaw, William J. MacGeagh

Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)

Craik, Sir Henry

M'Arthur, Charles

Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

Cross, Alexander

Magnus, Sir Philip

Young, Samuel

Duncan, Robert (Lanark, Govan

Morrison-Bell, Captain

Faber, George Denison (York)

Nicholson, Wm. G. (Petersfield)

TELLERS FOR THE NOES—

Fardell, Sir T. George

Nield, Herbert

Mr. Evelyn Cecil and Mr.

Fletcher, J. S.

Oddy, John James

Leverton Harris.

Gardner, Ernest

O'Grady, J.

And, it being Five of the clock, the CHAIRMAN proceeded, in pursuance of the Order of the House of the 17th July, successively to put forthwith the Question on the Amendments moved by the
1632
Government, of which notice had been given, and the Questions necessary to dispose of the Business to be concluded this day.
Clause 43:
Amendments proposed—
"In page 21, line 10, to leave out from the word 'resolution' to the word 'and' in line 12."
"In page 21, line 14, after the word 'Wales' to insert the words 'with the exception that a majority of two-thirds of the votes given shall be required for the carrying of the resolution or the extinction of all on-licences instead of a bare majority and.'"
"In page 21, line 32, to leave out the word 'a,' and to insert the words 'the necessary.'"—(Sir S. Evans.)
Amendments agreed to.
Question put, "That the clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill."
The Committee divided:—Ayes, 224; Noes, 84. (Division List No. 345.)

AYES.

Acland, Francis Dyke

Erskine, David C.

Maclean, Donald

Adkins, W. Ryland D.

Essex, R. W.

Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.

Agar-Robartes, Hon. T. C. R.

Esslemont, George, Birnie

M'Callum, John M.

Ainsworth, John Stirling

Evans, Sir Samuel T.

M'Kenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald

Alden, Percy

Faber, G. H. (Boston)

M'Laren, Sir C. B. (Leicester)

Allen, Charles P. (Stroud

Ferens, T. R.

M'Micking, Major G.

Asquith, Rt. Hon. Herbert Henry

Foster, Rt. Hon. Sir Walter

Mallet, Charles E.

Astbury, John Meir

Fullerton, Hugh

Mansfield, H. Rendall (Lincoln

Baker, Joseph A. (Finsbury, E.)

Gibb, James (Harrow)

Marks, G. Croydon (Launceston)

Balfour, Robert (Lanark)

Glen-Coates, Sir T. (Renfrew, W.

Marnham, F. J.

Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight)

Glendinning, R. G.

Massie, J.

Barker, John

Gooch, George Peabody (Bath)

Menzies, Walter

Barlow, Percy (Bedford)

Grant, Corrie

Molteno, Percy Alport

Barnes, G. N.

Greenwood, G. (Peterborough)

Mond, A.

Barran, Rowland Hirst

Griffith, Ellis J.

Montagu, Hon. E. S.

Beale, W. P.

Gurdon, Rt. Hn. Sir W. Brampton

Morgan, G. Hay (Cornwall)

Beaumont, Hon. Hubert

Haldane, Rt. Hon. Richard B.

Morton, Alpheus Cleophas

Bellairs, Carlyon

Harcourt, Rt. Hn. L. (Rossendale

Murray, James (Aberdeen, E.)

Benn, Sir J. Williams (Devonp'rt

Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose)

Myer, Horatio

Benn, W. (T'w'r Hamlets, S. Geo.

Hardy, George A. (Suffolk)

Nicholls, George

Berridge, T. H. D.

Hart-Davies, T.

Norman, Sir Henry

Bethell, T. R. (Essex, Maldon)

Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N. E.

Norton, Capt. Cecil William

Black, Arthur W.

Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth)

Nussey, Thomas Willans

Bowerman, C. W.

Hedges, A. Paget

O'Donnell, C. J. (Walworth)

Brace, William

Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

O'Grady, J.

Branch, James

Henderson, J. M. (Aberdeen, W.)

Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek)

Brocklehurst, W. B.

Henry, Charles S.

Philipps, Owen C. (Pembroke)

Brodie, H. C.

Herbert, Col. Sir Ivor (Mon., S.)

Pickersgill, Edward Hare

Brooke, Stopford

Herbert, T. Arnold (Wycombe)

Pirie, Duncan V.

Brunner, J. F. L. (Lancs., Leigh)

Higham, John Sharp

Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H.

Bryce, J. Annan

Hodge, John

Pullar, Sir Robert

Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn

Holland, Sir William Henry

Radford, G. H.

Burns, Rt. Hon. John

Hooper, A. G.

Rainy, A. Rolland

Buxton, Rt. Hn. Sydney Charles

Horniman, Emslie John

Rea, Russell (Gloucester)

Byles, William Pollard

Horridge, Thomas Gardner

Rea, Walter Russell (Scarboro'

Cameron, Robert

Hudson, Walter

Rees, J. D.

Carr-Gomm, H. W.

Hutton, Alfred Eddison

Richards, T. F. (Wolverh'mpt'n)

Cawley, Sir Frederick

Hyde, Clarendon

Richardson, A.

Channing, Sir Francis Allston

Isaacs, Rufus Daniel

Ridsdale, E. A.

Cheetham, John Frederick

Jackson, R. S.

Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)

Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston S.

Jacoby, Sir James Alfred

Robertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradf'rd

Clough, William

Jardine, J.

Robinson, S.

Cobbold, Felix Thornley

Jones, Sir D. Brynmor (Swansea)

Robson, Sir William Snowdon

Collins, Stephen (Lambeth)

Jones, Leif (Appleby)

Roch, Walter F. (Pembroke)

Collins, Sir Wm. J. (S. Pancras, W.

Kekewich, Sir George

Roe, Sir Thomas

Cooper, G. J.

Laidlaw, Robert

Rose, Charles Day

Corbett, C. H. (Sussex, E. Grinst'd

Lamb, Ernest H. (Rochester)

Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter

Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.

Lamont, Norman

Russell, Rt. Hon. T. W.

Cory, Sir Clifford John

Layland-Barratt, Sir Francis

Rutherford, V. H. (Brentford

Cotton, Sir H. J. S.

Leese, Sir Joseph E. (Accrington

Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)

Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth)

Lever, A. Levy (Essex, Harwich)

Schwann, C. Duncan (Hyde)

Crooks, William

Lloyd-George, Rt. Hon. David

Sears, J. E.

Crosfield, A. H.

Lupton, Arnold

Seaverns, J. H.

Curran, Peter Francis

Luttrell, Hugh Fownes

Shaw, Rt. Hon. (Hawick, B.)

Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardigan

Lyell, Charles Henry

Shipman, Dr. John G.

Davies, Timothy (Fulham)

Lynch, H. B.

Simon, John Allsebrook

Dickinson, W. H. (St. Pancras, N.

Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester)

Sinclair, Rt. Hon. John

Ducan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness)

Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk B'ghs)

Sloan, Thomas Henry

Duncan, J. H. (York, Otley)

Mackarness, Frederic C.

Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie

Snowdon, P.

Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton)

White, Luke (York, E. R.)

Soames, Arthur Wellesley

Thorne, William (West Ham)

Whitehead, Rowland

Soares, Ernest J.

Torrance, Sir A. M.

Whitley, John Henry (Halifax)

Spicer, Sir Albert

Toulmin, George

Whittaker, Rt. Hn. Sir Thomas P.

Stanger, H. Y.

Trevelyan, Charles Philips

Wiles, Thomas

Stanley, Hn. A. Lyulph (Chesh.)

Verney, F. W.

Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)

Steadman W. C.

Walters, John Tudor

Williamson, A.

Stewart, Halley (Greenock)

Ward, John (Stoke upon Trent)

Wills, Arthur Walters

Stewart-Smith, D. (Kendal)

Ward, W. Dudley (Southampton

Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R.)

Strachey, Sir Edward

Wardle, George J.

Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)

Straus, B. S. (Mile End)

Wason, Rt. Hn. E. (Clackmannan

Winfrey, R.

Summerbell, T.

Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney)

Wood, T. M'Kinnon

Sutherland, J. E.

Waterlow, D. S.

Yoxall, James Henry

Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)

Watt, Henry A.

Tennant, H. J. (Berwickshire)

Wedgwood, Josiah C.

TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr.

Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E)

White, Sir George (Norfolk)

Joseph Pease and Mr

Thompson, J. W. H. (Somerset, E.

White, J. Dundas(Dumbart'nsh.

Herbert Lewis.

NOES.

Anstruther-Gray, Major

Goulding, Edward Alfred

Oddy, John James

Arkwright, John Stanhope

Gretton, John

Percy, Earl

Aubrey-Fletcher, Rt. Hn. Sir H.

Guinness, Hn. R. (Haggerston)

Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

Balcarres, Lord

Guinness, W. E. (Bury S. Edm.)

Randles, Sir John Scurrah

Baldwin, Stanley

Harris, Frederick Leverton

Rasch, Sir Frederic Carne

Banbury, Sir Frederick George

Harrison-Broadley, H. B.

Ratcliff, Major R. F.

Barnard G. B.

Heaton, John Henniker

Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel

Barrie, H. T. (Londonderry, N.)

Helmsley, Viscount

Remnant, James Farquharson

Bertram, Julius

Hill, Sir Clement

Renton, Leslie

Bignold, Sir Arthur

Hills, J. W.

Renwick, George

Bowles, G. Stewart

Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield

Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall)

Bridgeman, W. Clive

Houston, Robert Paterson

Ronaldshay, Earl of

Butcher, Samuel Henry

Hunt, Rowland

Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool)

Carlile, E. Hildred

Joynson-Hicks, William

Salter, Arthur Clavell

Cave, George

Kerry, Earl of

Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert

Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

Kimber, Sir Henry

Stanier, Beville

Cecil, Lord R. (Marylebone, E.)

King, Sir Henry Seymour (Hull)

Starkey, John R.

Clive, Percy Archer

Lee, Arthur H. (Hants, Fareham

Talbot, Rt. Hn. J. G. (Oxf'd Univ.

Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

Lockwood, Rt. Hn. Lt.-Col. A. R.

Thornton, Percy M.

Courthope, G. Loyd

Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham

Walker, Col. W. H. (Lancashire)

Craig, Charles Curtis (Antrim, S)

Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Dublin, S)

Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E. R.)

Craig, Captain James (Down, E.)

Lonsdale, John Brownlee

Wortley, Rt. Hn. C. B. Stuart-

Craik, Sir Henry

Lowe, Sir Francis William

Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

Cross, Alexander

Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred

Young, Samuel

Dixon-Hartland, Sir Fred Dixon

MacCaw, William J. MacGeagh

Duncan, Robert (Lanark, Govan

M'Arthur, Charles

TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Viscount

Faber, George Denison (York)

Magnus, Sir Philip

Valentia and Mr. Pike

Fardell, Sir T. George

Morrison-Bell, Captain

Pease.

Fletcher, J. S.

Nicholson, Wm. G. (Petersfield)

Gardner, Ernest

Nield, Herbert

Clause 44:

The Committee divided:—Ayes, 230; Noes, 77. (Division List No. 346.)

AYES.

Acland, Francis Dyke

Beale, W. P.

Bryce, J. Annan

Adkins, W. Ryland D.

Beaumont, Hon. Hubert

Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn

Agar-Robartes, Hon. T. C. R.

Bellairs, Carlyon

Burns, Rt. Hon. John

Ainsworth, John Stirling

Benn, Sir J. Williams (Devonp'rt

Buxton, Rt. Hn. Sydney Charles

Alden, Percy

Benn, W. (T'W'r Hamlets, S. Geo)

Byles, William Pollard

Allen, Charles P. (Stroud)

Berridge, T. H. D.

Cameron, Robert

Asquith, Rt. Hn. Herbert Henry

Bethell, T. R. (Essex, Maldon)

Carr-Gomm, H. W.

Astbury, John Meir

Black, Arthur W.

Cawley, Sir Frederick

Baker, Joseph A. (Finsbury, E.)

Bowerman, C. W.

Channing, Sir Francis Allston

Balfour, Robert (Lanark)

Brace, William

Cheetham, John Frederick

Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight)

Branch, James

Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston S.

Barker, John

Brocklehurst, W. B.

Clough, William

Barlow, Percy (Bedford)

Brodie, H. C.

Cobbold, Felix Thornley

Barnard, E. B.

Brooke, Stopford

Collins, Stephen (Lambeth)

Barnes, G. N.

Brunner, J. F. L. (Lancs., Leigh)

Collins, Sir Wm. J. (S. Pancras, W.

Barran, Rowland Hirst

Brunner, Rt. Hn. Sir J. T. (Cheshire

Cooper, G. J.

Question put, "That the clause stand part of the Bill."

Corbett, C. H. (Sussex, E. Grinst'd

Leese, Sir Joseph F. (Accrington

Rutherford, V. H. (Brentford)

Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.

Lever, A. Levy (Essex, Harwich

Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)

Cory, Sir Clifford John

Lloyd-George, Rt. Hon. David

Scarisbrick, T. T. L.

Cotton, Sir H. J. S.

Lupton, Arnold

Schwann, C. Duncan (Hyde)

Cox, Harold

Luttrell, Hugh Fownes

Sears, J. E.

Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth)

Lyell, Charles Henry

Seaverns, J. H.

Crooks, William

Lynch, H. B.

Shaw, Rt. Hn. T. (Hawick, B.)

Crosfield, A. H.

Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester)

Shipman, Dr. John G.

Curran, Peter Francis

Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk B'ghs

Simon, John Allsebrook

Davies, M. Vaughan- (Cardigan)

Mackarness, Frederic C.

Sinclair, Rt. Hon. John

Davies, Timothy (Fulham)

Maclean, Donald

Sloan, Thomas Henry

Dickinson, W. H. (St. Pancras, N)

Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.

Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie

Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness)

MacVeagh, Jeremiah (Down, S.)

Snowden, P.

Duncan, J. H. (York, Otley)

M'Callum, John M.

Soames, Arthur Wellesley

Erskine, David C.

M'Kenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald

Soares, Ernest J.

Essex, R. W.

M'Laren, Sir (C. B. (Leicester)

Spicer, Sir Albert

Esslemont, George Birnie

M'Micking, Major G.

Stanger, H. Y.

Evans, Sir Samuel T.

Mallet, Charles E.

Stanley, Hn. A. Lyulph (Ghesh.)

Faber, G. H. (Boston)

Mansfield, H. Rendall (Lincoln)

Steadman, W. C.

Ferens, T. R.

Marks, G. Croydon (Launceston)

Stewart, Halley (Greenock)

Foster, Rt. Hon. Sir Walter

Marnham, F. J.

Stewart-Smith, D. (Kendal)

Fullerton, Hugh

Massie, J.

Strachey, Sir Edward

Gibb, James (Harrow)

Menzies, Walter

Straus, B. S. (Mile End)

Glen-Coats, Sir T. (Renfrew, W.)

Molteno, Percy Alport

Sutherland, J. E.

Glendinning, R. G.

Mond, A.

Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)

Gooch, George Peabody (Bath)

Montagu, Hon. E. S.

Tennant, H. J. (Berwickshire)

Grant, Corrie

Morgan, G. Hay (Cornwall)

Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.)

Greenwood, G. (Peterborough)

Morton, Alpheus Cleophas

Thompson, J. W. H. (Somerset, E.

Griffith, Ellis J.

Murray, James (Aberdeen, E.)

Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton)

Gurdon, Rt. Hn. Sir W. Brampton

Myer, Horatio

Thorne, William (West Ham)

Haldane, Rt. Hon. Richard B.

Newnes, F. (Notts, Bassetlaw)

Torrance, Sir A. M.

Harcourt, Rt. Hn. L. (Rossendale

Nicholls, George

Toulmin, George

Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose)

Norman, Sir Henry

Trevelyan, Charles Philips

Hardy, George A. (Suffolk)

Norton, Capt. Cecil William

Verney, F. W.

Harmsworth, Cecil B. (Worc'r.)

Nussey, Thomas Willans

Walters, John Tudor

Hart-Davies, T.

O'Donnell, C. J. (Walworth)

Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent)

Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N. E.

O'Grady, J.

Ward, W. Dudley (Southampt'n)

Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth)

Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek)

Wardle, George J.

Hedges, A. Pagot

Pearce, William (Limehouse)

Wason, Rt. Hn. E. (Clackmannan

Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

Philips, Owen C. (Pembroke)

Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney)

Henderson, J. M. (Aberdeen, W.)

Pickersgill, Edward Hare

Waterlow, D. S.

Henry, Charles S.

Pirie, Duncan V.

Watt, Henry A.

Herbert, Col. Sir Ivor (Mon., S.)

Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H.

Wedgwood, Josiah C.

Herbert, T. Arnold (Wycombe)

Pullar, Sir Robert

White, Sir George (Norfolk)

Higham, John Sharp

Radford, G. H.

White, J. Dundas (Dumbart'nsh.

Hodge, John

Rainy, A. Rolland

White, Luke (York, E. R.)

Holland, Sir William Henry

Rea, Russell (Gloucester)

Whitehead, Rowland

Horniman, Emslie John

Rea, Walter Russell (Searboro')

Whitley, John Henry (Halifax)

Horridge, Thomas Gardner

Rees, J. D.

Whittaker, Rt. Hn. Sir Thomas P.

Hudson, Walter

Richards, T. F. (Wolverh'mpt'n)

Wiles, Thomas

Hyde, Clarendon

Richardson, A.

Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)

Isaacs, Rufus Daniel

Ridsdale, E. A.

Williamson, A.

Jackson, R. S.

Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)

Wills, Arthur Walters

Jacoby, Sir James Alfred

Robertson, Sir C. Scott (Bradf'rd

Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R.)

Jardine, Sir J.

Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside)

Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)

Jones, Sir D. Brynmor (Swansea)

Robinson, S.

Winfrey, R.

Jones, Leif (Appleby)

Robson, Sir William Snowdon

Wood, T. M'Kinnon

Kekewich, Sir George

Roch, Walter F. (Pembroke)

Yoxall, James Henry

Laidlaw, Robert

Roe, Sir Thomas

Lamb, Ernest H. (Rochester)

Rose, Charles Day

TELLERS FOR THE AYES—

Lamont, Norman

Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter

Mr. Joseph Pease and Mr.

Layland-Barratt, Sir Francis

Russell, Rt. Hon. T. W.

Herbert Lewis.

NOES.

Anstruther-Gray, Major

Bridgeman, W. Clive

Craig, Captain James (Down, E.)

Arkwright, John Stanhope

Carlile, E. Hildred

Craik, Sir Henry

Aubrey-Fletcher, Rt. Hon. Sir H.

Cave, George

Cross, Alexander

Baldwin, Stanley

Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

Dixon-Hartland, Sir Fred Dixon

Banbury, Sir Frederick George

Cecil, Lord R. (Marylebone, E.)

Duncan, Robert (Lanark, Govan

Barrie, H. T. (Londonderry, N.)

Clive, Percy Archer

Faber, George Denison (York)

Bertram, Julius

Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

Fardell, Sir T. George

Bignold, Sir Arthur

Courthope, G. Loyd

Fletcher, J. S.

Bowles, G. Stewart

Craig, Charles Curtis (Antrim, S.

Gardner, Ernest

1638

1639

Goulding, Edward Alfred

Lockwood, Rt. Hn. Lt.-Col. A. R.

Renton, Leslie

Gretton, John

Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham)

Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Eeclesall)

Guinness, Hon. R. (Haggerston)

Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Dublin, S.)

Ronaldshay, Earl of

Guinness, W. E. (Bury S. Edm.)

Lonsdale, John Brownlee

Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool)

Harris, Frederick Leverton

Lowe, Sir Francis William

Salter, Arthur Clavell

Harrison- Broadley, H. B.

Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred

Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert

Heaton, John Henniker

MacCaw, William J. MacGeagh

Stanier, Reville

Helmsley, Viscount

M'Arthur, Charles

Talbot, Rt. Hn. J. G. (Oxf'rd Univ.

Hill, Sir Clement

Magnus, Sir Philip

Thornton, Percy M.

Hills, J. W.

Morrison-Bell, Captain

Walker, Col. W. H. (Lancashire)

Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield)

Nicholson, Wm. G. (Petersfield)

Wilson, A. Sranley (York, E. R.)

Houston, Robert Paterson

Nield, Herbert

Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-

Hunt, Rowland

Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

Joynson-Hicks, William

Randles, Sir John Scurrah

Young, Samuel

Kerry, Earl of

Rasch, Sir Frederic Carne

Kimber, Sir Henry

Ratcliffe, Major R. F.

TELLERS FOR THE NOES—

King, Sir Henry Seymour (Hull)

Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel

Viscount Valentia and Mr.

Lee, Arthur H. (Hants, Fareham)

Remnant, James Farquharson

Pike Pease.

Clause 45:
Amendment proposed—
"In page 22, line 34, to leave out from the word 'they' to the word 'and' in line 36, and insert the words 'were buildings newly erected.'"—(Sir S. Evans.)
Question put, "That the Amendment be made."
The Committee divided:—Ayes, 226;Noes, 73. (Division List No. 347.)

Molteno, Percy Alport

Roch, Walter F. (Pembroke)

Thorne, William (West Ham)

Mond, A.

Roe, Sir Thomas

Torrance, Sir A. M.

Montague, Hon. E. S.

Rose, Charles Day

Toulmin, George

Morgan, G. Hay (Cornwall)

Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter

Trevelyan, Charles Philips

Morton, Alpheus Cleophas

Russell, Rt. Hon. T. W.

Verney, F. W.

Murray, James (Aberdeen, E.)

Rutherford, V. H. (Brentford)

Walters, John Tudor

Myer, Horatio

Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)

Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent)

Napier, T. B.

Scarisbrick, T. T. L.

Ward, W. Dudley (Southampton

Norman, Sir Henry

Schwann, C. Duncan (Hyde)

Wardle, George J.

Norton, Capt. Cecil William

Sears, J. E.

Wason, Rt. Hn. E. (Clackmannan

Nussey, Thomas Willans

Seaverns, J. H.

Wason, John Catheart (Orkney)

O'Donnell, C. J. (Walworth)

Shaw, Rt. Hon. T. (Hawick, B.)

Waterlow, D. S.

O'Grady, J.

Shipman, Dr. John G.

Watt, Henry A.

Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek)

Simon, John, Allsebrook

Wedgwood, Josiah C.

Pearce, William (Limehouse)

Sinclair, Rt. Hon. John

White, Sir George (Norfolk)

Philipps, Owen C. (Pembroke)

Sloan, Thomas Henry

White, J. Dundas (Dumbart'nsh.

Pickersgill, Edward Hare

Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie

White, Luke (York, E. R.)

Pirie, Duncan V.

Snowden, P.

Whitehead, Rowland

Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H.

Soames, Arthur Wellesley

Whitley, John Henry (Halifax)

Pullar, Sir Robert

Soares, Ernest J.

Whittaker, Rt. Hn.Sir ThomasP.

Radford, G. H.

Spicer, Sir Albert

Wiles, Thomas

Rainy, A. Rolland

Stanger, H. Y.

Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)

Rea, Russell (Gloucester)

Stanley, Hn. A. Lyulph(Chesh.)

Williamson, A.

Rea, Waller Russell (Scarboro'

Steadman, W. C.

Wills, Arthur Walters

Rees, J. D.

Stewart, Halley (Greenock)

Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R.)

Richards, T. F. (Wolverh'mpt'n

Stewart-Smith, D. (Kendal)

Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)

Richardson, A.

Strachey, Sir Edward

Wood, T. M'Kinnon

Ridsdale, E. A.

Straus, B. S. (Mile End)

Yoxall, James Henry

Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)

Sutherland, J. E.

Robertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradf'rd

Tennant, H. J. (Berwickshire)

TELLERS FOR THE AYES—

Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside)

Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.)

Mr. Joseph Pease, and Mr.

Robinson, S.

Thompson, J. W. H. (Somerset, E.

Herbert Lewis.

Robson, Sir William Snowdon

Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton)

NOES.

Anstruther-Gray, Major

Guinness, Hon. R. (Haggerston)

Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

Arkwright, John Stanhope

Guinness, W. E. (Bury S. Edm.)

Randles, Sir John Scurrah

Aubrey-Fletcher, Rt. Hn. Sir H.

Harris, Frederick Leverton

Rasch, Sir Frederic Carne

Banhury, Sir Frederick George

Harrison-Broadley, H. B.

Ratcliff, Major, R. F.

Barrie, H. T. (Londonderry, N.)

Heaton, John Henniker

Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel

Bertram, Julius

Helmsley, Viscount

Remnant, James Farquharson

Bignold, Sir Arthur

Hill, Sir Clement

Renton, Leslie

Bowles, G. Stewart

Hills, J. W.

Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall)

Bridgeman, W. Clive

Hope,, James Fitzalan (Sheffield

Ronaldshay, Earl of

Carlile, E. Hildred

Houston, Robert Paterson

Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool)

Cave, George

Hunt, Rowland

Salter, Arthur Clavell

Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

Joynson-Hicks, William

Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert

Cecil, Lord R. (Marylebone E.)

Kerry, Earl of

Stanier, Beville

Clive, Percy Archer

Kimber, Sir Henry

Talbot, Rt. Hn. J. G. (Oxf'd Univ.

Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

King, Sir Henry Seymour (Hall)

Thornton, Percy M.

Craig, Charles Curtis (Antrim, S.)

Lee, Arthur H. (Hants, Fareham

Walker, Col. W. J. T. (Lancashire)

Craig, Captain James (Down, E.)

Lockwood, Rt. Hn. Lt.-Col. A. R.

White, Patrick (Meath, North)

Craik, (Sir Henry

Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham

Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E. R.)

Cross, Alexander

Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Dublin, S.)

Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-

Dixon-Hartland, Sir Fred Dixon

Lonsdale, John Brownlee

Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

Duncan, Robert (Lanark, Govan

Lowe, Sir Francis William

Young, Samuel

Faber, George Denison (York)

MacCaw, William J. MacGeagh

Fardell, Sir T. George

M'Arthur, Charles

TELLERS FOR THE NOES—

Fletcher, J. S.

Magnus, Sir Philip

Viscount Valentia and Mr.

Gardner, Ernest

Morrison-Bell, Captain

Pike Pease.

Goulding, Edward Alfred

Neild, Herbert

Amendment proposed—
"In page 22, line 38, to leave out from the word 'apply' to the word 'and' in line 40, and insert the words 'accordingly; and for the purpose of all the provisions so applied the owner or other person in receipt of the rent of the premises shall be treated as a ratepayer, whether he is in fact a ratepayer or not.'"
1642
"In page 23, line 1, to leave out the word 'eighteen,' and insert the word 'seven.'"
"In page 23, line 2, to leave out the word '1907,' and tinsert the word '1908.'"
"In page 23, line 5, to leave out the word 'seven,' and to insert the word 'eight.'"—(Sir S. Evans.)
Amendments agreed to.
Question put, "That the clause, as I amended, stand part of the Bill."

AYES.

Acland, Francis Dyke

Glen-Coats, Sir T. (Renfrew, W.)

Norman, Sir Henry

Adkins, W. Ryland D.

Glendinning, R. G.

Norman, Capt. Cecil William

Agar-Robartes, Hon. T. C. R.

Gooch, George Peabody (Bath)

Nussey, Thomas William

Ainsworth, John Stirling

Grant, Corrie

O'Donnell, C. J. (Walworth)

Alden, Percy

Greenwood, G. (Peterborough)

O'Grady, J.

Allen, Charles P. (Stroud)

Griffith, Ellis J.

Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek)

Asquith, Rt. Hn. Herbert Henry

Gurdon, Rt. Hn. Sir W. Brampton

Philips, Owen C. (Pembroke)

Astbury, John Meir

Haldane, Rt. Hon. Richard B.

Pickersgill, Edward Hare

Baker, Joseph A. (Finsbury, E.)

Harcourt, Rt. Hn. L. (Rossendale

Pirie, Duncan V.

Balfour, Robert (Lanark)

Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose)

Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H.

Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight)

Hardy, George A. (Suffolk)

Pullar, Sir Robert

Barlow, Percy (Bedford)

Harmsworth, Cecil B. (Worc'r.)

Radford, G. H.

Barnard, E. B.

Hart-Davies, T.

Rainy, A. Holland

Barnes, G. N.

Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N. E.

Rea, Russell (Gloucester)

Barran, Rowland Hirst

Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth)

Rees, J. D.

Beale, W. P.

Hedges, A. Paget

Richards, T. F. (Wolverh'mpt'n

Beaumont, Hon. Hubert

Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

Richardson, A.

Bellairs, Carlyon

Henderson, J. M. (Aberdeen, W.)

Ridsdale, E. A.

Benn, Sir J. Williams (Devonp'rt

Henry, Charles S.

Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)

Benn, W. (T'w'r Hamlets, S. Geo)

Herbert, Col. Sir Ivor (Mon., S.)

Robertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradf'rd

Berridge, T. H. D.

Higham, John Sharp

Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside)

Bethell, T. R. (Essex, Maldon)

Hodge, John

Robinson, S.

Black, Arthur W.

Holland, Sir William Henry

Robson, Sir William Snowdon

Bowerman, C. W.

Hooper, A. G.

Roch, Walter F. (Pembroke)

Brace, William

Horniman, Emslie John

Roe, Sir Thomas

Branch, James

Horridge, Thomas Gardner

Rose, Charles Day

Brocklehurst, W. B.

Hudson, Walter

Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter

Brodie, H. C.

Hyde, Clarendon

Russell, Rt. Hon. T. W.

Brooke, Stopford

Isaacs, Rufus Daniel

Rutherford, V. H. (Brentford)

Brunner, J. F. L. (Lancs., Leigh)

Jackson, R. S.

Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)

Bryce, J. Annan

Jacoby, Sir James Alfred

Scarisbrick, T. T. L.

Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn

Jardine, Sir J.

Schwann, C. Duncan (Hyde)

Burns, Rt. Hon. John

Jones, Sir D. Brynmor (Swansea)

Sears, J. E.

Buxton, Rt. Hn. Sydney Charles

Jones, Leif (Appleby)

Seaverns, J. H.

Byles, William Pollard

Kekewich, Sir George

Shaw, Rt. Hn. T. (Hawick B.)

Cameron, Robert

Laidlaw, Robert

Shipman, Dr. John G.

Carr-Gomm, H. W.

Lamb, Ernest H. (Rochester)

Simon, John Allsebrook

Cawley, Sir Frederick

Lamont, Norman

Sinclair, Rt. Hon. John

Channing, Sir Francis Allston

Layland-Barratt, Sir Francis

Sloan, Thomas Henry

Cheetham, John Frederick

Lever, A. Levy (Essex, Harwich

Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie

Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston S.

Lloyd-George, Rt. Hon. David

Snowden, P.

Clough, William

Lupton, Arnold

Soames, Arthur Wellesley

Cobbold, Felix Thornley

Luttrell, Hugh Fownes

Soares, Ernest J.

Collins, Stephen (Lambeth)

Lyell, Charles Henry

Spicer, Sir Albert

Collins, Sir Wm. J. (S. Pancras, W.

Lynch, H. B.

Stanger, H. Y.

Cooper, G. J.

Macdonald, J. M. (Leicester)

Stanley, Hn. A. Lyulph (Chesh.)

Corbett, C. H. (Sussex, E. Grinst'd

Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk B'ghs

Steadman, W. C.

Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.

Mackarness, Frederic C.

Stewart, Halley (Greenock)

Cory, Sir Clifford John

Maclean, Donald

Stewart-Smith, D. (Kendal)

Cotton, Sir H. J. S.

Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.

Strachey, Sir Edward

Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth

M'Callum, John M.

Straus, B. S. (Mile End)

Crooks, William

M'Laren, Sir C. B. (Leicestor)

Sutherland, J. E.

Crosfield, A. H.

M'Mickirg, Major G.

Tennant, H. J. (Berwickshire)

Curran, Peter Francis

Mallet, Charles E.

Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.)

Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardigan

Mansfield, H. Rendall (Lincoln)

Thompson, J. W. H. (Somerset, E.

Davies, Timothy (Fulham)

Marks, G. Croydon (Launceston)

Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton

Dickinson, W. H. (St, Pancras, N.

Marnham, F. J.

Thorne, William (West Ham)

Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness

Massie, J.

Torrance, Sir A. M.

Erskine, David C.

Menzies, Walter

Toulmin, George

Essex, R. W.

Molteno, Percy Alport

Verney, F. W.

Esslemont, George Birnie

Mond, A.

Walters, John Tudor

Evans, Sir Samuel T.

Montagu, Hon. E. S.

Ward, John (Stoke upon Trent)

Faber, G. H. (Boston)

Morgan, G. Hay (Cornwall)

Ward, W. Dudley (Southampt'n)

Ferens, T. R.

Morton, Alpheus Cleophas

Wardle, George J.

Foster, Rt. Hon. Sir Walter

Murray, James (Aberdeen, E.)

Wason, Rt. Hn. E. (Clackmannan

Fullerton, Hugh

Myer, Horatio

Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney)

Gibb, James (Harrow)

Napier, T. B.

Waterlow, D. S.

The Committee divided:—Ayes, 217; Noes, 72. (Division List No. 348.)

Watt, Henry A.

Whittaker, Rt. Hn. Sir Thomas P.

Wood, T. M'Kinnon

Wedgwood, Josiah C.

Wiles, Thomas

Yoxall, James Henry

White, Sir George (Norfolk)

Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)

White, J. Dundas (Dumbart'nsh.

Williamson, A.

TELLERS FOR THE AYES—

White, Luke (York, E. R.)

Wills, Arthur Walters

Mr. Joseph Pease and Mr.

Whitehead, Rowland

Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R.)

Herbert Lewis.

Whitley, John Henry (Halifax)

Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)

NOES

Anstruther-Gray, Major

Guinness, Hn. R. (Haggerston)

Randles, Sir John Scurrah

Arkwright, John Stanhope

Guinness, W. E. (Bury S. Edm.)

Rasch, Sir Frederic Carne

Aubrey-Fletcher, Rt. Hn. Sir H.

Harris, Frederick Leverton

Ratcliff, Major R. F.

Banbury, Sir Frederick George

Heaton, John Henniker

Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel

Barrie, H. T. (Londonderry, N.)

Hill, Sir Clement

Remnant, James Farquharson

Bertram, Julius

Hills, J. W.

Renton, Leslie

Bignold, Sir Arthur

Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield)

Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall)

Bowles, G. Stewart

Houston, Robert Paterson

Ronaldshay, Earl of

Bridgeman, W. Clive

Hunt, Rowland

Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool)

Carlile, E. Hildred

Joynson-Hicks, William

Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert

Cave, George

Kerry, Earl of

Stanier, Beville

Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

Kimber, Sir Henry

Talbot, Rt. Hn. J. G. (Oxf'd Univ.

Cecil, Lord R. (Marylebone, E.)

King, Sir Henry Seymour (Hull)

Thornton, Percy M.

Clive, Percy Archer

Lee, Arthur H. (Hants, Fareham

Valentia, Viscount

Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

Lockwood, Rt. Hn. Lt.-Col. A. R.

Walker, Col. W. H. (Lancashire)

Craig, Charles Curtis (Antrim, S)

Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham

White, Patrick (Meath, North)

Craig, Captain James (Down, E.

Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Dublin, S)

Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E. R.

Craik, Sir Henry

Lonsdale, John Brownlee

Wortley, Rt. Hn. C. B. Stuart-

Cross, Alexander

Lowe, Sir Francis William

Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

Dixon-Hartland, Sir Fred Dixon

MacCaw, William J. MacGeagh

Young, Samuel

Duncan, Robert (Lanark, Govan

M'Arthur, Charles

Faber, George Denison (York)

Magnus, Sir Philip

TELLERS FOR THE NOES—

Fardell, Sir T. George

Morrison-Bell, Captain

Viscount Helmsley and Mr.

Fletcher, J. S.

Nield, Herbert

Salter.

Gardner, Ernest

Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington

Goulding, Edward Alfred

Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

Clause 46:

The Committee divided:—Ayes, 204; Noes, 59. (Division List No. 349.)

AYES.

Acland, Francis Dyke

Branch, James

Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardigan)

Adkins, W. Ryland D.

Brodie, H. C.

Davies, Timothy (Fulham)

Agar-Robartes, Hon. T. C. R.

Brunner, J. F. L. (Lancs., Leigh)

Dickinson, W. H. (St. Pancras, N.

Ainsworth, John Stirling

Bryce, J. Annan

Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness

Alden, Percy

Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn

Erskine, David C.

Asquith, Rt. Hn. Herbert Henry

Burns, Rt. Hon. John

Evans, Sir Samuel T.

Astbury, John Meir

Buxton, Rt. Hn. Sydney Charles

Faber, G. H. (Boston)

Baker, Joseph A. (Finsbury, E.)

Byles, William Pollard

Ferens, T. R.

Balfour, Robert (Lanark)

Cameron, Robert

Foster, Rt. Hon. Sir Walter

Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight)

Carr-Gomm, H. W.

Gibb, James (Harrow)

Barlow, Percy (Bedford)

Cawley, Sir Frederick

Glen-Coats, Sir T. (Renfrew, W.

Barnard, E. B.

Channing, Sir Francis Allston

Glendinning, R. G.

Barnes, G. N.

Cheetham, John Frederick

Gooch, George Peabody (Bath)

Barran, Rowland Hirst

Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston S.

Grant, Corrie

Beale, W. P.

Cobbold, Felix Thornley

Greenwood, G. (Peterborough)

Beaumont, Hon. Hubert

Collins, Stephen (Lambeth)

Griffith, Ellis J.

Bellairs, Carlyon

Collins, Sir Wm. J. (S. Pancras, W.

Gurdon, Rt. Hn. Sir W. Brampton

Benn, Sir J. Williams (Devonp'rt

Cooper, G. J.

Haldane, Rt. Hon. Richard B.

Benn, W. (T'w'r Hamlets, S. Geo.

Corbett, C. H. (Sussex, E. Grinst'd

Harcourt, Rt. Hn. L. (Rossendale

Berridge, T. H. D.

Cory, Sir Clifford John

Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose)

Bertram, Julius

Cotton, Sir H. J. S.

Hardy, George A. (Suffolk)

Bethell, T. R. (Essex, Maldon)

Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth)

Harmsworth, Cecil B. (Worc'r)

Black, Arthur W.

Crooks, William

Hart-Davies, T.

Bowerman, C. W.

Crosfield, A. H.

Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N. E.

Brace, William

Curran, Peter Francis

Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth)

Question, put, "That the clause stand part of the Bill."

Hedges, A. Paget

Morton, Alpheus Cleophas

Spicer, Sir Albert

Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

Murray, James (Aberdeen, E.)

Stanger, H. Y.

Henderson, J. M. (Aberdeen, W.)

Myer, Horatio

Stanley, Hn. A. Lyulph (Chesh.

Henry, Charles S.

Napier, T. B.

Steadman, W. C.

Hodge, John

Norman, Sir Henry

Stewart, Halley (Greenock)

Holland, Sir William Henry

Norton, Capt. Cecil William

Stewart-Smith, D. (Kendal)

Hooper, A. G.

Nussey, Thomas Willans

Strachey, Sir Edward

Horridge, Thomas Gardner

O'Donnell, C. J. (Walworth)

Straus, B. S. (Mile End)

Hudson, Walter

O'Grady, J.

Sutherland, J. E.

Hyde, Clarendon

Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek)

Tennant, H. J. (Berwickshire)

Isaacs, Rufus Daniel

Pearce, William (Limehouse)

Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.)

Jackson, R. S.

Philipps, Owen C. (Pembroke)

Thompson, J. W. H. (Somerset, E.

Jacoby, Sir James Alfred

Pickersgill, Edward Hare

Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton)

Jones, Sir D. Brynmor (Swansea

Pirie, Duncan V.

Thorne, William (West Ham)

Jones, Leif (Appleby)

Pullar, Sir Robert

Torrance, Sir A. M.

Kekewich, Sir George

Radford, G. H.

Toulmin, George

Laidlaw, Robert

Rainy, A. Rolland

Verney, F. W.

Lamb, Ernest H. (Rochester)

Rea, Russell (Gloucester)

Walters, John Tudor

Lamont, Norman

Rea, Walter Russell (Scarboro'

Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent)

Layland-Barratt, Sir Francis

Rees, J. D.

Ward, W. Dudley (Southampton

Lever, A. Levy (Essex, Harwich)

Richards, T. F. (Wolverh'mpt'n

Wardle, George J.

Lloyd-George, Rt. Hon. David

Richardson, A.

Wason, Rt. Hn. E. (Clackmannan

Lupton, Arnold

Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)

Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney)

Luttrell, Hugh Fownes

Robertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradf'rd

Waterlow, D. S.

Lyell, Charles Henry

Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside)

Watt, Henry A.

Lynch, H. B.

Robinson, S.

Wedgwood, Josiah C.

Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester,

Robson, Sir William Snowdon

White, Sir George (Norfolk)

Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk B'ghs

Roch, Waller F. (Pembroke)

White, J. Dundas (Dumbart'nsh.

Mackarness, Frederic C.

Roe, Sir Thomas

White, Luke (York, E. R.)

Maclean, Donald

Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter

Whitehead, Rowland

Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.

Russell, Rt. Hon. T. W.

Whitley, John Henry (Halifax)

MacVeagh, Jeremiah (Down, S.)

Rutherford, V. H. (Brentford)

Whittaker, Rt. Hn.Sir ThomasP.

M'Callum, John M.

Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)

Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)

M'Kenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald

Scarisbrick, T. T. L.

Williamson, A.

M'Laren, Sir C. B. (Leicester)

Schwann, C. Duncan (Hyde)

Wills, Arthur Walters

M'Micking, Major G.

Sears, J. E.

Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R.

Mullet, Charles K.

Seaverns, J. H.

Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)

Mansfield, H. Rendall (Lincoln)

Shaw, Rt. Hon. T. (Hawick B.)

Wood, T. M'Kinnon

Marks, G. Croydon (Launceston)

Shipman, Dr. John G.

Yoxall, James Henry

Marnham, F. J.

Simon, John Allsebrook

Massie, J.

Sinclair, Rt. Hon. John

TELLERS FOR THE AVES—Mr

Menzies, Walter

Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie

Joseph Pease and Mr.

Mond, A.

Snowden, P.

Herbert Lewis.

Montagu, Hon. E. S.

Soames, Arthur Wellesley

Morgan, G. Hay (Cornwall)

Soares, Ernest J.

NOES.

Anstruther-Gray, Major

Goulding, Edward Alfred

Randles, Sir John Scurrah

Arkwright, John Stanhope

Guinness, Hon. R. (Haggerston)

Rasch, Sir Frederic Carne

Aubrey-Fletcher, Rt. Hon. Sir H.

Guinness, W. K. (Bury S. Edm.)

Ratcliff, Major R. F.

Barrie, H. T. (Londonderry, N.

Hill, Sir Clement

Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel

Bignold, Sir Arthur

Hills, J. W.

Remnant, James Farquharson

Bowles, G. Stewart

Houston, Robert Paterson

Renton, Leslie

Bridgeman, W. Clive

Hunt, Rowland

Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall)

Carlile, E. Hildred

Kerry, Earl of

Ronaldshay, Earl of

Cave, George

Kimber, Sir Henry

Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool)

Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

King, Sir Henry Seymour (Hull)

Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert

Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

Lee, Arthur H. (Hants, Fareham

Stanier, Beville

Craig, Charles Curtis (Antrim, S.

Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham

Talbot, Rt. Hn. J. G. (Oxf'd Univ.

Craig, Captain James (Down, E.)

Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Dublin, S.

Thornton, Percy M.

Craik, Sir Henry

Lonsdale, John Brownlee

White, Patrick (Meath, North)

Cross, Alexander

Lows, Sir Francis William

Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E. R.)

Dixon-Hartland, Sir Fred Dixon

MacCaw, William. J. MacGeagh

Wortley, RT. Hon. C. B. Stuart-

Duncan, Robert (Lanark, Govan

M'Arthur Charles

Young, Samuel

Faber, George Denison (York)

Magnus, Sir Philip

Fardell, Sir T. George

Morrison-Bell, Captain

TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr.

Fletcher, J. S.

Nield, Herbert

Pike Pease and Mr. James

Gardner, Ernest

Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

Hope,

Clause 47 agreed to.
New clause—
"In page 21, after Clause 43, to insert the following clause: (1) In this Act, unless the context otherwise requires: (a) The expression "urban area" means a ward in the case of a borough or urban district divided into wards, and a borough or urban district in the case of a borough or urban district not divided into wards, and for the purposes of the definition of an "urban area" a metropolitan borough shall be deemed to be a borough. Where at the passing of this Act part of an urban area is situated in one licensing district and part in another, the Secretary of State shall make such an order as may be necessary for the purpose of securing that the whole of the urban area shall be included in one licensing district, and may by the order cither alter the boundaries of the licensing districts, or, if be is of opinion that each part of the area can properly be treated as a separate urban area, declare that each

AYES.

Acland, Francis Dyke

Cheetham, John Frederick

Hedges, A. Paget

Adkins, W. Ryland D.

Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston S.

Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

Agar-Robartes, Hon. T. C. R.

Cobbold, Felix Thornley

Henderson, J. M. (Aberdeen, W.)

Ainsworth, John Stirling

Collins, Stephen (Lambeth)

Henry, Charles S.

Alden, Percy

Cooper, G. J.

Hodge, John

Asquith, Rt. Hon. Herbert Henry

Corbett, C. H. (Sussex, E. Grinst'd

Hooper, A. G.

Astbury, John Meir

Cory, Sir Clifford John

Horniman, Emslie John

Baker, Joseph A. (Finsbury, E.)

Cotton, Sir H. J. S.

Horridge, Thomas Gardner

Balfour, Robert (Lanark)

Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth)

Hudson, Walter

Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight)

Crooks, William

Hyde, Clarendon

Barlow, Percy (Bedford)

Crosfield, A. H.

Isaacs, Rufus Daniel

Barnard, E. B.

Curran, Peter Francis

Jackson, R. S.

Barnes, G. N.

Davies, M. Vaughan- (Cardigan

Jacoby, Sir James Alfred

Barran, Rowland Hirst

Davies, Timothy (Fulham)

Jones, Sir D. Brynmor (Swansea

Beale, W. P.

Dickinson, W. H. (St. Pancras, N.

Jones, Leif (Appleby)

Beaumont, Hon. Hubert

Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness

Kekewich, Sir George

Bellairs, Carlyon

Erskine, David C.

Laidlaw, Robert

Benn, Sir J. Williams (Devonp'rt

Evans, Sir Samuel T.

Lamb, Ernest H. (Rochester)

Benn, W. (T'w'r Hamlets, S. Geo.

Faber, G. H. (Boston)

Lamont, Norman

Berridge, T. H. D.

Forens, T. R.

Layland-Barratt, Sir Francis

Bethell, T. R. (Essex, Maldon)

Foster, Rt. Hon. Sir Walter

Lever, A. Levy (Essex, Harwich)

Blank, Arthur W.

Gibb, James (Harrow)

Lloyd-George, Rt. Hon. David

Bowerman, C. W.

Glen-Coats, Sir T. (Renfrew, W.

Lupton, Arnold

Brace, William

Glendinning, R. G.

Lyell, Charles Henry

Brunch, James

Gooch, George Peabody (Bath)

Lynch, H. B.

Brodie, H. C.

Grant, Corrie

Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester)

Brunner, J. F. L. (Lancs., Leigh)

Greenwood, G. (Peterborough)

Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk B'ghs

Bryce, J. Annan

Griffith, Ellis J.

Mackarness, Frederic C.

Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn

Gurdon, Rt. Hn. Sir W. Brampton

Maclean, Donald

Burns, Rt. Hon. John

Haldane, Rt. Hon. Richard B.

Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.

Buxton, Rt. Hn. Sydney Charles

Harcourt, Rt. Hn. L. (Rossendale

MacVeagh, Jeremiah (Down, S.

Byles, William Pollard

Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose)

M'Callum, John M.

Cameron, Robert

Harmsworth, Cecil B. (Worc'r)

M'Kenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald

Carr-Gomm, H. W.

Hart-Davies, T.

M'Laren, Sir C. B. (Leicester)

Cawley, Sir Frederick

Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N. E.

M'Micking, Major G.

Channing, Sir Francis Allston

Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth)

Mallet, Charles E.

part shall be so treated, and the order shall take effect accordingly; (b) the expression "rural parish" means a parish in a rural district; (c) the expression "Licensing Acts' means the Licensing Acts, 1828 to 1906, and this Act. (2) Any reference in this Act to any provision of the Licensing Acts, 1828 to 1906, which has been amended by any subsequent Act, or is amended by this Act, shall be construed as a reference to the provision as so amended.'"—(Sir S. Evans.)
Brought up, and read the first time.
Question put, "That the clause be added to the Bill."
The Committee divided:—Ayes, 198; Noes, 58. (Division List No. 350.)

Mansfield, H. Rendall (Lincoln)

Robson, Sir William Snowdon

Thorne, William (West Ham)

Marnham, F. J.

Roch, Walter F. (Pembroke)

Torrance, Sir A. M.

Massie, J.

Roe, Sir Thomas

Trevelyan, Charles Philips

Menzies, Walter

Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter

Verney, F. W.

Mond, A.

Russell, Rt. Hon. T. W.

Walters, John Tudor

Montagu, Hon. E. S.

Rutherford, V. H. (Brentford)

Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent)

Morgan, G. Hay (Cornwall)

Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)

Ward, W. Dudley (Southampton

Morton, Alpheus Cleophas

Scarisbrick, T. T. L.

Wardle, George J.

Murray, James (Aberdeen, E.)

Schwann, C. Duncan (Hyde)

Wason, Rt. Hn. E. (Clackmannan

Myer, Horatio

Sears, J. E.

Wason, John Catheart (Orkney)

Napier, T. B.

Seaverns, J. H.

Waterlow, D. S.

Norman, Sir Henry

Shaw, Rt. Hon. T. (Hawick B.)

Watt, Henry A.

Norton, Capt. Cecil William

Shipman, Dr. John G.

Wedgwood, Josiah C.

Nussey, Thomas Willans

Simon, John Allsebrook

White, Sir George (Norfolk)

O'Donnell, C. J. (Walworth)

Sinclair, Rt. Hon. John

White, J. Dundas (Dumbart'nsh

O'Grady, J.

Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie

White, Luke (York, E. R.)

Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek)

Snowden, P.

Whitehead, Rowland

Pearce, William (Limehouse)

Soames, Arthur Wellesley

Whitley, John Henry (Halifax

Philipps, Owen C. (Pembroke)

Soares, Ernest J.

Whittaker, Rt. Hn. Sir Thomas P.

Pickersgill, Edward Hare

Spicer, Sir Albert

Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)

Pirie, Duncan V.

Stanger, H. Y.

Williamson, A.

Pullar, Sir Robert

Stanley, Hn. A. Lyulph (Chesh.)

Wills, Arthur Walters

Radford, G. H.

Steadman, W. C.

Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R.)

Rainy, A. Rolland

Stewart, Halley (Greenock)

Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)

Rea, Russell (Gloucester)

Stewart-Smith, D. (Kendal)

Wood, T. M'Kinnon

Rea, Walter Russell (Scarboro'

Strachev, Sir Edward

Yoxall, James Henry

Rees, J. D.

Straus, B. S. (Mile End)

Richardson, A.

Sutherland, J. E.

TELLERS FOR THE AYES—

Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)

Tennant, H. J. (Berwickshire)

Mr. Joseph Pease and Mr.

Robertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradf'rd

Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.)

Herbert Lewis

Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside)

Thompson, J. W. H. (Somerset, E.

Robinson, S.

Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton)

NOES.

Anstruther-Gray, Major

Guinness, W. E. (Bury S. Edm.)

Rasch, Sir Frederic Carne

Arkwright, John Stanhope

Hill, Sir Clement

Ratcliff, Major R. F.

Aubrey-Fletcher, Rt. Hon. Sir H.

Hills, J. W.

Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel

Barrie, H. T. (Londonderry, N.)

Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield)

Remnant, James Farquharson

Bertram, Julius

Houston, Robert Paterson

Renton, Leslie

Bignold, Sir Arthur

Hunt, Rowland

Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall)

Bowles, G. Stewart

Kerry, Earl of

Ronaldshay, Earl of

Bridgeman, W. Clive

Kimber, Sir Henry

Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool)

Carlile, E. Hildred

King, Sir Henry Seymour (Hull)

Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert

Cave, George

Lee, Arthur H. (Hants, Fareham

Stanier, Beville

Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham

Talbot, Rt, Hn. J. G. (Oxf'd Univ

Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Dublin, S.

Thornton, Percy M.

Craig, Captain James (Down, E.)

Lonsdale, John Brownlee

White, Patrick (Meath, North),

Craik, Sir Henry

Lowe, Sir Francis William

Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E. R.)

Cross, Alexander

MacCaw, William J. MacGeagh

Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-

Dixon-Hartland, Sir Fred Dixon

M'Arthur, Charles

Young, Samuel

Duncan, Robert (Lanark, Govan

Magnus, Sir Philip

Fletcher, J. S.

Morrison-Bell, Captain

TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr.

Gardner, Ernest

Nield, Herbert

Pike Pease and Mr. George

Goulding, Edward Alfred

Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

D. Faber.

Guinness, Hon. R. (Haggerston)

Randles, Sir John Scurrah

Committee report Progress; to sit again upon Monday next.
And, it being half-past Five of the Clock, Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER adjourned
1652
the House without Question put, pursuant to Standing Order No. 3.
Adjourned at nine minutes before Six o'clock till Monday next.