HC Deb 27 May 1908 vol 189 cc1145-69

Considered in Committee.

(In the Committee.)

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That for the purposes of any Act of the present session to make further provision with respect to University Education in Ireland, it is expedient to authorise the payment, out of moneys provided by Parliament—(a) of the remuneration of the secretary to the Commissioners, and of any persons appointed or employed by them, and of any expenses incurred by the Commissioners in the execution of such Act; and (b) of grants for the purposes of either of the new Universities, or of the constitutent colleges of the new University at Dublin, or of the governing bodies thereof."—(Mr. Birrell.)

SIR F. BANBURY

said on the Resolution just passed the Chancellor of the Exchequer told them that as it dealt with a large sum it really did not require explanation. This Resolution dealt with a very small sum, but they had received no explanation of any sort of kind.

THE CHIEF SECRETARY FOR IRELAND (Mr. BIRRELL,) Bristol, N.

It is in the Bill.

SIR F. BANBURY

said that he was not on the Standing Committee which would have to consider the Bill, and he would not know what was done there. He would be one of the 600 Members who would have little or no opportunity of discussing the Bill, even if they desired to do so, but he was one of those who would have to provide the requisite funds, and he felt it was necessary to ask the right hon. Gentleman a few searching questions before allowing the Resolution to pass. The Resolution was of a very vague character, and covered a very large field. It said— For the purpose of any Act in the present session. He did not know how many Acts the right hon. Gentleman meant to bring in dealing with Irish Universities. Probably the explanation was that it was formal phraseology which had always been adopted; but one was a little suspicious of anything connected with the Irish Department at the present moment. Therefore, when they saw those words, and remembered that they were only in May, he would like to know whether or not it was the intention of the right hon. Gentleman to bring in another measure dealing with Irish Universities.

MR. BIRRELL

No.

SIR F. BANBURY

said he had been obliged, owing to the exigencies of circumstances, to make himself acquainted with the phraseology of these different Resolutions and as far as he could remember he did not recall that a Resolution of this kind had ever been divided into two parts; the general Resolution usually covered everything. In this case there was, apparently a very large sum of money to be spent in Ireland. Under paragraph (a) of the Resolution they had to provide remuneration for the secretary to the Commissioners and for persons employed by them, and they had also to provide for the expenses of the Commissioners. He thought they should at least know from the right hon. Gentleman what was proposed to be paid to the secretary, how many persons were to be employed, and what they were to be paid, because the words of the Resolution opened up a very wide field. If much money were got from England, they might be scattering it about in all directions. They might employ persons for a day or two, and hard-earned money might be poured into an insatiable maw. He would like to know what expenditure was contemplated by the Commissioners, but, at this stage he proposed to move an Amendment limiting the amount to £2,000 per annum. He did not suppose that the secretary to the Commission would require more than £500, and that would leave £1,500 for the persons appointed by the Commission. He was quite willing, if the right hon. Gentleman showed him any good grounds, to alter the amount, and make it larger or smaller as the case might be. But he did not think that they ought to vote blank cheques for the right hon. Gentleman in this manner. He had always protested against voting blank cheques, and, greatly as he respected the right hon. Gentleman, that respect did not go so far as to give him the facilities which he had endeavoured to prevent other right hon. Gentlemen from obtaining.

Amendment proposed— In line 7, after the word 'Act,' to insert the words 'such sum not to exceed £2,000 per annum.'"—(Sir F. Banbury).

Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."

MR. BIRRELL

The hon. Baronet is in such a reasonable mood that I really think that if the matter were left to him and me to settle between us we should possibly strike a bargain which would give great pleasure to the secretary to the Commission, whoever he may be, because as it is he and everybody else in the matter will be left to the tender mercies of the Treasury, and the tender mercies of the Treasury are very severe. This Commission is a statutory Commission, appointed to frame statutory regulations for the two Universities. It is a Commission of a kind absolutely essential for the purposes of the Bill. There are a great many examples for it. There are precedents for the salaries, which I doubt not will be most scrupulously observed, and the expenses incurred will certainly be of most moderate dimensions. The salary for the secretary named by the hon. Baronet, if that sum should not be in excess, will be about the amount he stated; and with regard to the persons employed, the language of the Resolution has to be used because one cannot put a limit to the operations of a statutory Com- mission of this kind. But really the cost is quite of the smallest dimensions, and I should be very much surprised if the sum the hon. Baronet named did not altogether meet the exigencies of the case. He may rest assured that it is not an occasion for casting money broadcast over Ireland, or for finding jobs for people, or anything of that sort. The Commissioners will be austere educational persons having he other object in view than to frame proper statutes and regulations for these Universities, to arrange for professors, and a few posts of that kind, and for compensation and the like, which, of course, will come out of the University funds. They will be judiciously minded people and not extravagant people. The whole of their staff will consist of the secretary, and there may be one or two other persons by way of assisting him. It may be necessary to employ persons to find out the facts of certain localities to be visited by the Commissioners, but I can assure the hon. Baronet that this is an exceedingly small matter which is governed by precedents. We have the precedents before us as to remuneration to be awarded through the secretary, and the whole thing will be done on that stern and austere footing which properly belongs to the Universities, which suffer none of the extravagance which I am sorry to say seems characteristic of some departments of expenditure.

MR. WALTER LONG (Dublin, S.)

I do not wonder that my hon. friend has again raised a protest, because we on this side were severely criticised when we made a proposal of this nature. I fully admit that we have been responsible probably in a larger degree than the right hon. Gentleman and his colleagues, but it must be obvious that the situation is somewhat different. We have never claimed to be the party who were animated solely by a desire for public economy, and the criticism always advanced by Gentlemen opposite is that we do everything in the slackest and most extravagant fashion. But I must say that those who profess these virtues, now they hive come into power, not only follow our own bad example, but use what was done in our time as precedents to justify what they now do, and they forget all they said when they were in a less responsible position. So far as the general ground is concerned, I do not wonder that my hon. friend moved the Amendment. I think it is to be regretted that on occasions like this—I do not care from which side the Government is formed—the Government should seem to be always unable to tell the House anything definite either as to the size of these Commissions or the precise work they will have to do, or the cost that it will cause to the State. The Chief Secretary told us that we might be quite happy as taxpayers, because the control of the Treasury which will ultimately settle this matter would be far more elective than would be even the vigorous control of my hon. friend behind me, the Member for the City. I am not quite sure that this is a prudent or satisfactory way in which to leave the matter. The Chief Secretary says that he has had experience of the Treasury and that he knows what a stern watchdog it is over public expenditure. I agree with him. I have had a longer experience than he of the Treasury, and I entirely agree from my own experience, for what it is worth, that it would be far better if the Minister responsible for the particular work that is done were in a position to put his case fully before Parliament and get the sanction of Parliament for this expenditure, than leave it ultimately to be fought out between himself and the Treasury; because it not infrequently happens that the Treasury secures economy on one point or another, which is not satisfactory, which is parsimonious economy, and which does not lead to good administration, so that the Minister in charge is compelled, by sheer boredom, and not because he is convinced, to consent to the demands of the Department, and in that way you do not get such a satisfactory result as you would obtain if the bargain was made in the face of Parliament. However, this applies to both sides, and I cannot rest myself on the fact that we have been more virtuous than the right hon. Gentleman is now; but when they have the opportunity they fall into the same vicious way. In regard to the provision of money for this scheme, I cannot support the Amendment. I am not a supporter of the Bill, and I voted against it. I have not so far been regular in my attendance in the Standing Committee, but any vote I am likely to give there would be in the direction of strengthening, if it were possible, the undenominational character of the Universities. I believe, whatever may be the safeguards imposed by Parliament, these new Universities must ultimately become denominational, and therefore the kind of University t6 which I am opposed, as not leading to good education; but I acknowledge the fact that this Parliament has definitely decided, so far as the Second Reading goes, that these Universities are to be established, and the risk, if it be one, is to be run. In these circumstances, there are two things which seem to be clear. One is that the future of the Universities, whether denominational or undenominational, must depend on the way in which the foundations are laid by the Statutory Commission. In these circumstances I urge on my hon. friend, having reference to the vastness of the subject, and the great possibility, if the hopes of the right hon. Gentleman are realised, that is before this new step in the educational work of Ireland, and to the fact that in this, the greatest undenominational Parliament, as it has been claimed to be, so far as numbers and representatives are concerned, this offer has been made by the majority to establish and endow what many people on that side as well as this, believe will ultimately be denominational Universities, that it is desirable not to deal with the matter with a niggardly hand. Therefore, whether it be in regard to the Commission, or the money to be found for the Universities, I certainly could not be a party to an Amendment which would possibly interfere with the proper and satisfactory performance of their duties by the Commissioners, in whom will rest the commencement of the work. A reduction of the amount might have a very unsatisfactory effect on the work they would have to do. I quite agree with my hon. friend in his general observations, but I wish to make it clear that if he presses the Amendment to a division, which, I hope, he may possibly not do, I shall not be able to support him.

SIR F. BANBURY

said he was sorry his right hon. friend would not be able to support him in the lobby. He did not want to put any pressure on him in that direction, but it was very important that there should be a certain limit imposed upon these money Resolutions. He also had voted against the Second Reading of the Bill and he did not wish to put a limit which could be open to the reproach of being niggardly. That was why he had asked the right hon. Gentleman what he thought the cost would be, find he would be prepared to alter his Amendment accordingly. The right hon. Gentleman did not think the amount he had put down would be expended, and therefore, there could be no question of being niggardly or preventing the operation of the first part of the Resolution. He thought it was necessary to put some limit to this expenditure, and not leave it entirely in the hands of the Treasury and a Minister of the Crown, whoever he might be, because there might be a new Chief Secretary—

MR. BIRRELL

The Commission will be over in eighteen months.

SIR F. BANBURY

said the argument might be advanced that if the Commission went on for any great length of time new obligations might arise, but if it was only going on for eighteen months, and they were told that this sum was sufficient, that was a very excellent reason for supporting him in the lobby. It was on Mr. Forster's assurance that the education rate would not exceed 3d. in the £ that the Act of 1870 was passed. But the House of Commons of that day were fools enough not to put a binding limit. If they had done that we should all have been very much better off. He hoped they would not repeat that error, and would prevent the right hon. Gentleman or anybody else from indulging in too generous proposals after he had got his Bill through the House.

MR. CHARLES CRAIG (Antrim, S.)

supported the Amendment as a protest against the methods used by the Chief Secretary, not only on this Resolution, but all through the conduct of the Bill. In the Standing Committee one of their chief objections to the Bill and the way in which it was being pushed through was that all the most important things connected with the setting up of the Universities were contained in charters, which they were not allowed to discuss, and that these important things ought to be included in the Bill. Here again the most important matter involved in this Resolution, the amount that the House of Commons was asked to vote, was not included in the Resolution at all. With reference to the second part, the Bill stated definitely the sum which the House of Commons was asked to grant for the purposes of the University. It was £80,000 a year, and a capital sum of £230,000 for building and other purposes. No reason had been given by the Chief Secretary why they should not pursue the same course in reference to the amount of money to be spent in connection with the Commission to be appointed. The right hon. Gentleman had given precisely the same class of answer that he had been giving for the last three or four days in the Committee. He said, "If you leave this to me or to certain officials of the Treasury all will be well." From his experience, extending now over nearly two years, of the right hon. Gentleman he regretted to have to say that he was not content to leave these matters solely in his hands, and if they had to vote any sums of money for this or any other purpose, he would rather fix definitely once for all in the House what the exact amount was to be than leave it to the tender mercies of the Chief Secretary—whose mercies he did not look upon as tender as a rule—or those of the Treasury officials. For these reasons he should support the Amendment.

The Committee divided:—Ayes, 57; Noes, 276. (Division List No. 106.)

AYES.
Acland-Hood, Rt Hn. Sir Alex. F. Fell, Arthur Renton, Leslie
Arnold-Forster. Rt. Hn. Hugh O. Gardner, Ernest Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert
Ashley, W. W. Gordon, J. Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool
Aubrey-Fletcher, Rt. Hn. Sir Haddock, George B. Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert
Balcarres, Lord Hamilton, Marquess of Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)
Baldwin, Stanley Helmsley, Viscount Sheffield, Sir Berkeley George D.
Beach, Hn. Michael Hugh Hicks Joynson-Hicks, William Sloan, Thomas Henry
Beckett, Hon. Gervase Kennaway, Rt. Hn. Sir John H. Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East)
Bowles, G. Stewart Kerry, Earl of Stone, Sir Benjamin
Bridgeman, W. Clive Lane-Fox, G. R. Thomson, W. Mitchell- (Lanark)
Carlile, E. Hildred Law, Andrew Bonar (Dulwich) Walker. Col. W. H. (Lancashire)
Castlereagh, Viscount Lockwood, Rt. Hn. Lt.-Col. A. R. Walrond, Hon. Lionel
Cave, George MacCaw, William J. MacGeagh Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid)
Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) Middlemore, John Throgmorton Wortley, Rt. Hn. C. B. Stuart-
Clive, Percy Archer Morpeth, Viscount Younger, George
Coates, Major E. F. (Lewisham) Morrison-Bell, Captain
Courthope, G. Loyd Nicholson, Wm. G. (Petersfield) TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Sir Frederick Banbury and Colonel Sandys.
Craig, Charles Curtis(Antrim, S) Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington
Craik, Sir Henry Powell, Sir Francis Sharp
Cross, Alexander Randles, Sir John Scurrah
Dalrymple, Viscount Remnant, James Farquharson
NOES.
Abraham, William (Cork, N. E.) Causton. Rt. Hn. Richard Knight Findlay, Alexander
Abraham, William (Rhondda) Cawley, Sir Frederick Flynn, James Christopher
Agnew, George William Chance, Frederick William Fuller, John Michael F.
Ainsworth, John Stirling Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R. Fullerton, Hugh
Allen, A. Acland (Christchurch) Clancy, John Joseph Gladstone, Rt. Hn Herbert John
Allen, Charles P. (Stroud) Cleland, J. W. Glover, Thomas
Ambrose, Robert Clough, William Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford
Armstrong, W. C. Heaton Clynes, J. R. Gooch, George Peabody (Bath)
Atherley-Jones, L. Collins, Stephen (Lambeth) Grayson, Albert Victor
Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth) Compton-Rickett, Sir J. Greenwood, G. (Peterborough)
Balfour, Robert (Lanark) Corbett. C H (Sussex, E. Grinst'd Greenwood, Hamar (York)
Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight) Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. Gulland, John W.
Barker, John Cowan, W. H. Gurdon. Rt Hn Sir W. Brampton
Barlow, Sir John E. (Somerset) Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth) Gwynn, Stephen Lucius
Barnard, E. B. Crean, Eugene Hall, Frederick
Barnes, G. N. Cremer, Sir William Randal Halpin, J.
Barran, Rowland Hirst Crooks, William Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose)
Barry, Redmond J. (Tyrone, N.) Crosfield, A. H. Harmsworth, Cecil B. (Woc'rr)
Beale, W. P. Crossley, William J. Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale)
Beauchamp, E. Cullinan, J. Harvey, W. E. (Drbyshire, N.E.)
Benn, Sir J. Williams (Devonp'rt Dalmeny, Lord Harwood, George
Bennett, E. N. Davies, Ellis William (Eifion) Haslam, James (Derbyshire)
Berridge, T. H. D. Davies, Timothy (Fulham) Haworth, Arthur A.
Bertram, Julius Davies, W. Howell (Bristol, S.) Hayden, John Patrick
Bethell, Sir J H.(Essex, Romf'rd Dewar, Arthur (Edinburgh, S.) Hazel, Dr. A. E.
Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P. Heaton, John Henniker
Boland, John Dillon, John Henderson, Arthur (Durham)
Boulton, A. C. F. Donelan, Captain A. Herbert, Col. Sirlvor (Mon., S.)
Brace, William Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness Higham, John Sharp
Bramsdon, T. A. Duncan, J. H. (York, Otley) Hobart, Sir Robert
Brigg, John Duncan, Robert (Lanark, Govan Hobhouse, Charles E. H.
Bright, J. A. Dunn, A. Edward (Camborne) Hodge, John
Brodie, H. C. Dunne, Major E. Martin (Walsall Hogan, Michael
Brooke, Stopford Edwards, Enoch (Hanley) Holland, Sir William Henry
Bryce, J. Annan Elibank, Master of Holt, Richard Durning
Burke, E. Haviland- Ellis, Rt. Hon. John Edward Hope, W. Bateman (Somerset, N.
Burns, Rt. Hon. John Erskine, David C. Horniman, Emslie John
Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas Esslemont, George Birnie Hudson, Walter
Buxton, Rt. Hn. Sydney Charles Evans, Sir Samuel T. Hutton. Alfred Eddison
Byles, William Pollard Fen wick, Charles Idris, T. H. W.
Cameron, Robert Ferens, T. R. Illingworth, Percy H.
Carr-Gomm, H. W. Ferguson, R. C. Munro Jacoby, Sir James Alfred
Johnson, John (Gateshead) Nicholson, Charles N. (Doncast'r Stanley, Hn. A. Lyulph (Chesh.)
Johnson, W. (Nuneaton) Nolan, Joseph Starkey, John R.
Jones, Leif (Appleby) Norman, Sir Henry Steadman, W. C.
Jones, William (Carn'rvonshire) Norton, Capt. Cecil William Strachey, Sir Edward
Jowett, F. W. Nussey, Thomas Willans Strauss, E. A. (Abingdon)
Joyce, Michael Nuttall, Harry Stuart, James (Sunderland)
Kavanagh, Walter M. O'Brien, Kendal (Tiprary N. Mid Summerbell, T.
Kearley, Hudson E. O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) Sutherland, J. E.
Kekewich, Sir George O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W.) Taylor, John W. (Durham)
Kilbride, Denis O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.) Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)
Kincaid-Smith, Captain O'Kelly, James (Roscom'on, N. Tennant, Sir Edward (Salisbury
King, Alfred John (Knutsford) O'Malley, William Tennant, H. J. (Berwickshire)
King, Sir Henry Seymour (Hull) O'Shaughnessy, P. J. Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.)
Laidlaw, Robert Partington, Oswald Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton)
Lamb, Ernest H. (Rochester) Paulton, James Mellor Thornton, Percy M.
Lambert, George Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek) Tomkinson, James
Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, W.) Philipps, Owen C. (Pembroke) Torrance, Sir A. M.
Lea, Hugh Cecil (St. Pancras, E.) Phillips, John (Longford, S.) Ure, Alexander
Lehmann, R. C. Pirie, Duncan V. Verney, F. W.
Lever, A. Levy (Essex, Harwich) Pollard, Dr. Vivian, Henry
Levy, Sir Maurice Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H. Wadsworth, J.
Lloyd-George, Rt. Hon. David Price. Robert John (Norfolk, E.) Walker, H. De R. (Leicester)
Lupton, Arnold Pullar, Sir Robert Walsh, Stephen
Lyell, Charles Henry Radford, G. H. Walton, Joseph
Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred Rea, Russell (Gloucester) Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent)
Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester) Rea, Walter Russell (Scarboro' Wardle, George J.
Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk B'ghs Redmond, John E. (Waterford) Wason, Rt. Hn. E (Clackmannan
Mackarness, Frederic C. Rendall, Athelstan Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney)
Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J. Richards, Thomas (W. Mnm'th) Watt, Henry A.
MacNeill, John Gordon Swift Richards, T. F. (W'lverh'mpt'n) Wedgwood, Josiah C.
Macpherson, J. T. Ridsdale, E. A. Weir, James Galloway
MacVeagh, Jeremiah (Down, S.) Roberts, G. H. (Norwich) White, Luke (York, E. R.)
MacVeigh, Charles (Donegal, E.) Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside) Whitehead, Rowland
M'Crae, George Robinson, S. Whitley, John Henry (Halifax)
M'Hugh, Patrick A. Robson, Sir William Snowdon Whittaker, Sir Thomas Palmer
M'Laren, H. D. (Stafford, W.) Roche, John (Galway, East) Wiles, Thomas
Maddison, Frederick Roe, Sir Thomas Williams, Llewelyn (Carmarth'n
Mallet. Charles E. Rowlands, J. Wills, Arthur Walters
Manfield, Harry (Northants) Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter Wilson, Hon. G. G. (Hull, W.)
Mansfield, H. Rendall (Lincoln) Russell, T. W. Wilson Henry J. (York, W. R)
Markham, Arthur Basil Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland) Wilson, J. H. (Middlesbrough)
Marks, G. Croydon (Launceston) Schwann, C. Duncan (Hyde) Wilson, J. W. (Worcestersh, N.)
Marnham, F. J. Schwann, Sir C. E. (Manchester) Wilson, P. W. (St. Pancras, S.)
Menzies, Walter Scott, A. H. (Ashton-under-Lyne Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)
Micklem, Nathaniel Seaverns, J. H. Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)
Mond, A. Shaw, Rt. Hon. T. (Hawick B.) Winfrey, R.
Mooney, J. J. Sheehy, David Yoxall, James Henry
Morton, Alpheus Cleophas Shipman, Dr. John G.
Murray, Capt. Hn A. C. (Kincard Silcock, Thomas Ball TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr. Whiteley and Mr. J. A. Pease.
Myer, Horatio Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie
Nannetti, Joseph P. Stanger, H. Y.
Nicholls, George Stanley, Albert (Staffs, N. W.)

Question put.

SIR F. BANBURY

said he had a further Amendment to move to limit the operation of paragraph (b). The same arguments applied to this section as to paragraph (a). He wished to know definitely how much money the right hon. Gentleman proposed to take. Why was the amount not put in the Resolution, and why did the right hon. Gentleman object to a limit being put in? He presumed the Chief Secretary had carefully considered the question of ways and means. He did not believe in giving blank cheques to any Minister, more especially in regard to what was after all a contentious Bill. He proposed to, put the second part of this Resolution into a business-like form by adding at the end "Such grants not to exceed £80,000 per annum." The case differed from the previous section, because the labours of the Universities would go on for ever. They had, fortunately, an economical Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant, and it was quite possible that he would think. £80,000 a sufficient sum. When the Committee under a Resolution of this character practically gave a blank cheque the temptation to go on spending the money, knowing the House of Commons had no control over it was, so great that some restriction, ought to be imposed. They all knew the great pressure which hon. Members below the gangway were able to put upon the Government in matters of this kind. Probably the Chief Secretary would tell them that none of this money would be given without the consent of the Treasury, and that they would see it was not wasted. The Chancellor of the Exchequer talked about spending millions in an airy and light-hearted way, but he would remind him that the Opposition were committed to economy and. desired to see that there should be no undue expenditure. In order to rescue the right hon. Gentleman from the temptation of spending too much money he moved this Amendment. He did not wish to do anything unreasonable, but he wanted the Bill confined to the object for which they were told it had been introduced. It was because he did not want this expenditure to be increased and because he thought that without the control of Parliament the expenditure might rise to an unforeseen extent that he moved his Amendment.

Amendment proposed— At the end of the Question, to add the words 'such grants not to exceed £80,000 per annum.'"—(Sir F. Banbury).

Question proposed, "That those words be there added."

MR. CHARLES CRAIG

said he could not support the Amendment. The Bill was as bad as it could be, but it had one redeeming feature from the point of view of an Irishman, and that was that it proposed to grant £230,000 as building grants, the bulk of which would come from England, and the sooner Ireland had this money and made use of it the better it would be. He hoped it would be of good use, though he had his doubts. The Amendment would keep the greater part of that money out of their hands for a considerable number of years, and as an Irishman he could not agree to that. Under the Bill they could get £230,000 in their hands in one year, and he said as an Irishman, "Let us have it." If it were in order he should object to this Resolution on the grounds that the amount to be raised on it was not large enough. The sums mentioned in the Bill would be totally inadequate to set up two Universities. The amount for Belfast University would only go a very small way to put that institution on a satisfactory basis. The amount proposed for the University in Dublin would be totally insufficient. It was a bad University in theory, but it must be palpable to those who knew anything about the cost of buildings that the amount allotted would be quite inadequate. If these proposed Universities were to be equipped in anything like a modern and proper way a sum of at least three times that mentioned in the Bill would be required. But he supposed that as the Chief Secretary had failed to induce the Treasury to grant a larger amount he would also fail to urge this point successfully.

SIR F. BANBURY

said he did not quite understand the objection of his hon. friend. The Chief Secretary had given no explanation of the Resolution, and, unfortunately, he was not a Member of the Committee, so that it was difficult for him to be absolutely accurate in his knowledge of the contents of the Bill. The object of the Amendment was to confine the sum to be spent annually to £80,000. He gathered from his hon. friend that he was anxious that a lump sum of £230,000 should be given. If it was contemplated to give a lump sum he was perfectly willing to withdraw the Amendment he had moved, in order to move as another Amendment the insertion of the words: "Such sum not to exceed in all £230,000." He asked his hon. friend whether he would support that Amendment.

MR. CHARLES CRAIG

said he understood the effect of that Amendment would be to permit an expenditure of only £80,000 per annum of the sum of £230,000. Would the hon. Member assure him that the £230,000 could, if necessary, be spent in one year?

MR. MARKHAM (Nottinghamshire, Mansfield)

said he objected to the course which the discussion had followed. It was a pure case of deliberate obstruction. The same argument had been repeated from the Opposition Benches time after time. [An HON. MEMBER: They were not arguments.] He agreed with his hon. friend that they were not arguments. The same words had been repeated time after time. The deliberate intention of the hon. Baronet the Member for the City of London was to waste the time of the House. He hoped the House would take notice that there was a deliberate course of obstruction being pursued which was making the House of Commons nothing more nor less than the laughing stock of the country. There was no business community in the world that would allow what had transpired in this House. It was a disgrace to the House of Commons.

MR. BIRRELL

said he was very glad to answer the question of the hon. Baronet. As he understood him, he found fault with this Resolution because it did not confine the possible expenditure on the Universities to the sums mentioned in the schedules, namely £80,000 annually and £230,000 as a capital sum. These were the sums decided upon after such consideration as they could give to the subject, which necessarily involved a good deal of consideration. The Government thought the estimate he mentioned in introducing the Bill was adequate, but he thought it was only barely adequate to start these Universities. Of course, the expenditure of £80,000 a year was not new expenditure. The present expenditure upon the Royal University and upon the three colleges amounted to £57,000, so that the only new additional expenditure was the difference between £57,000 and £80,000. The £57,000 was purely Irish money coming out of the Irish Church Fund, and English Members of Parliament did not require to take any credit for that portion of the expenditure. But it was quite impossible for the hon. Baronet or anybody else to pretend to say that they could lay down an economical and strict limit for the creation of two such Universities as these. He was very glad the Resolution did not tie up his hands absolutely. The matter would, of course, require the consideration of both Houses of Parliament, and it would be absurd and ridiculous for them for one moment to lay down the figures as absolute so that they could not increase them in case of necessity for so doing being shewn. Therefore, he altogether declined to accept any Amendment to the Resolution limiting their powers in the matter. The whole subject would receive the full consideration of the House. He could not pretend to say how much it would cost to acquire the site for the University in Dublin or to erect colleges in keeping with the extent of their designs. They had to form their estimate very economically, and it would very likely be adhered to, but, at any rate, the Resolution did not tie them down to a £5 note on one side or the other.

MR. GORDON (Londonderry, S.)

appealed to his hon. friend to withdraw the Amendment. While he himself was opposed to the Bill, he contended as an Irishman that if the measure was to become law it would be a great misfortune if the hands of the right hon. Gentleman were to be tied in such a manner as would prevent him from making ample provision for the new Universities. In the Committee upstairs he would say a word in favour of giving larger sums than the right hon. Gentleman had indicated.

DR. HAZEL (West Bromwich)

said he had no objection to giving the Chief Secretary a blank cheque. But he would like to know what figures were to be put upon it. The right hon. Gentleman in introducing the Bill mentioned that there would be certain building grants. The sums mentioned by the right hon. Gentleman did not include provision for buildings such as would constitute a residential college. He understood that pressure was being put on the right hon. Gentleman in various quarters to increase the building grants so as to provide a sufficient sum for a residential college. It would relieve the minds of some Members of the House if they could get an assurance that the blank cheque would not be filled up with figures representing such an addition to the sums mentioned in the right hon. Gentleman's introductory speech as would provide for a residential college. Had or had not the right hon. Gentleman in his mind, as the result of getting this Resolution passed without a limit, the intention of so increasing the building grants as to provide for a residential college?

MR. FLYNN (Cork, N.)

said that some hon. Members must have a voracious appetite for debate. They were asking the Chief Secretary what he would do on certain matters in connection with the Irish Universities Bill, though that Bill was being discussed day after day with wearisome iteration by the Standing Committee. Hon. Members would have ample opportunities in the Committee upstairs and on the Report Stage in the House, and he did not think that time should be taken up at present in the discussion of what was a mere formality. When the Resolution with respect to old-age pensions was under discussion earlier in the evening the Leader of the Opposition made a speech and left the House and he observed, not without astonishment, that the right hon. Gentleman had not returned. An overwhelming majority of members were in favour of the Irish Universities Bill, but hour after hour was being wasted in debating the measure upstairs. There was apparently a desire on the part of some hon. Members to repeat that procedure on the floor of the House. He trusted that the good sense of this Assembly would prevail and that such Parliamentary antics would cease on the part of those who ought to have a better sense of their responsibilities.

MR. HAROLD COX (Preston)

protested against the language used by the hon. Member for the Mansfield Division. He regarded it as the first duty of the House to protect the taxpayers' pockets. He believed the hon. Member was one of those opposed to the sugar tax. Would he go to his constituents and say that the House was making it inevitable by talking against it? These charges on the taxpayers would be inevitable unless they discussed them. This House was responsible for expenditure, and it was in this House alone that a protest ought to be made against its increase.

MR. WILLIAM RUTHERFORD (Liverpool, West Derby)

said that, as he understood, the second subsection of Clause 7 of the Bill together with the Schedules, imposed certain obligations on Parliament. The sums mentioned in the Schedule for the general purposes of the Universities were described as to be "annually paid out of moneys provided by Parliament." He took it that that was Parliamentary authority to pay those exact sums and no more. Therefore, it appeared to him to be absolutely unnecessary and out of order to propose now any limiting words. Then in subsection 3 of Clause 7 which provided the moneys for— Purchasing lands and providing or improving the necessary buildings and equipment for the universities and colleges, he found the words— Not exceeding the maximum sums specified in Part II. of the Third Schedule. And when he referred to the Schedule he found £60,000 for Belfast University, £150,000 for Dublin University and College, £14,000 for Queen's College, Cork, and £6,000 for Queen's College, Galway. It was perfectly clear that it would be out of order to discuss the question of limiting either the annual or the capital sums. He took it that if it was desired by any Member to reduce any of those sums it would have to be done by a specific Resolution.

SIR F. BANBURY

pointed out that the hon. Member's argument was the strongest that could be used in favour of his Amendment. If the amount in the Resolution were limited it would be limited by a Vote of the Whole House; but if it were left unlimited in the Resolution, then it might be altered in Committee by the seventy Members who composed that Committee. He would not pay any attention to what had been said by the hon. Member for Mansfield. He thanked his hon. friend the Member for Preston for his intervention. He agreed with that hon. Gentleman that it was the first duty of hon. Members to safeguard the interests of the taxpayers; and after the action of the hon. Member for Mansfield it was sheer hypocrisy for him to talk of going to his constituents and pledging himself to economy.

THE CHAIRMAN

The use of the word "hypocrisy" is out of order as applied to an hon. Member.

SIR P. BANBUTRY

begged to withdraw the word "hypocrisy." He did not think he had ever before been guilty of a Parliamentary breach of order. But he believed the Committee would admit

that he had sufficient provocation for it on the present occasion.

Question put.

The Committee divided:—Ayes, 48; Noes, 277. (Division List No. 107.)

AYES.
Acland-Hood, Rt Hn. Sir Alex. F Hardy, Laurence (Kent, Ashford Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool)
Aubrey-Fletcher, Rt. Hn. Sir H. Helmsley, Viscount Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)
Beach, Hn. Michael Hugh Hicks Kennaway, Rt. Hn. Sir John H. Stone, Sir Benjamin
Beckett, Hon. Gervase Kerry, Earl of Thomson, W. Mitchell- (Lanark)
Bridgeman, W. Clive Lockwood, Rt. Hn. Lt.-Col. A. R. Thornton, Percy M.
Carlile, E. Hildred Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred Valentia, Viscount
Castlereagh, Viscount M'Arthur, Charles Walker, Col. W. H. (Lancashire)
Cave, George Mason, James F. (Windsor) Walrond, Hon. Lionel
Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) Meysey-Thompson, E. C. Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid)
Coates, Major E. F. (Lewisham) Middlemore, John Throgmorton Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.)
Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E. Morpeth, Viscount Wortley, Rt. Hn. C. B. Stuart.
Courthope, G. Loyd Morrison-Bell, Captain Younger, George
Craik, Sir Henry Nicholson, Wm. G. (Petersfield)
Dalrymple, Viscount Nield, Herbert TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Sir Frederick Banbury and Colonel Sandys.
Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- Parker, Sir Gilbert (Gravesend)
Fell, Arthur Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington
Gardner, Ernest Randies, Sir John Scurrah
Haddock, George B. Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel
NOES.
Abraham, William (Cork, N. E.) Causton, Rt. Hn. Richard Knight Esslemont, George Birnie
Agnew, George William Cawley, Sir Frederick Evans, Sir Samuel T.
Allen, A. Acland (Christchurch) Cecil, Lord R. (Marylebone, E.) Fenwick, Charles
Allen, Charles P. (Stroud) Chance, Frederick William Ferens, T. R.
Armstrong, W. C. Heaton Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R. Findlay, Alexander
Ashley, W. W. Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston S. Flynn, James Christopher
Asquith, Rt. Hn. Herbert Henry Clancy, John Joseph Fuller, John Michael F.
Atherley-Jones, L. Cleland, J. W. Fullerton, Hugh
Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth); Clough, William Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herbert John
Balfour, Robert (Lanark) Clynes, J. R. Glover, Thomas
Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight) Collins, Stephen (Lambeth) Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford
Barker, John Compton-Rickett, Sir J. Gooch, George Peabody (Bath)
Barlow, Sir John E. (Somerset) Corbett, C H (Sussex, E. Grinst'd Grant, Corrie
Barnard, E. B. Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. Grayson, Albert Victor
Barnes, G. N. Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth) Greenwood, G. (Peterborough)
Barran, Rowland Hirst Crean, Eugene Greenwood, Hamar (York)
Barry, Redmond J. (Tyrone, N.) Cremer, Sir William Randal Gulland, John W.
Beale, W. P. Crooks, William Gwynn, Stephen Lucius
Bell, Richard Crosfield, A. H. Hall, Frederick
Benn, Sir J. Williams (Devonp'rt Crossley, William J. Halpin, J.
Benn, W. (T'w'r Hamlets, S. Geo. Cullinan, J. Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose)
Bennett, E. N. Dalmeny, Lord Hardie, J. Keir (Merthyr Tydvil)
Berridge, T. H. D. Davies, Ellis William (Eifion) Harmsworth, Cecil B. (Worc'r)
Bethell, Sir J. H. (Essex, Romf'rd Davies, Timothy (Fulham) Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale)
Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine Davies, W. Howell (Bristol, S.) Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N. E)
Boland, John Devlin, Joseph Harwood, George
Boulton, A. C. F. Dewar, Arthur (Edinburgh, S.) Haslam, James (Derbyshire)
Brace, William Dickinson, W. H. (St. Pancras, N Hayden, John Patrick
Bramsdon, T. A. Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P. Hazel, Dr. A. E.
Brigg, John Dillon, John Heaton, John Henniker
Bright, J. A. Donelan, Captain A. Henderson, Arthur (Durham)
Brodie, H. C. Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness Herbert, Col. Sir Ivor (Mon., S.)
Brooke, Stopford Duncan, J. H. (York, Otley) Higham, John Sharp
Bryce, J. Annan Duncan, Robert (Lanark, Govan Hobart, Sir Robert
Burns, Rt. Hon. John Dunn, A. Edward (Camborne) Hobhouse, Charles E. H.
Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas Dunne, Major E. Martin (Walsall Hodge, John
Butcher, Samuel Henry Edwards, Enoch (Hanley) Hogan, Michael
Buxton, Rt. Hn. Sydney Charles Edwards, Sir Francis (Radnor) Holland, Sir William Henry
Byles, William Pollard Elibank, Master of Hope, W. Bateman (Somerset, N
Cameron, Robert Ellis, Rt. Hon. John Edward Horniman, Emslie John
Carr-Gomm, H. W. Erskine, David C. Hudson, Walter
Hutton, Alfred Eddison Mond, A. Shipman, Dr. John G.
Idris, T. H. W. Mooney, J. J. Silcock, Thomas Ball.
Illingworth, Percy H. Morton, Alpheus Cleophas Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie
Johnson, John (Gateshead) Murray, Capt. Hn A C. (Kincard) Stanger, H. Y.
Johnson, W. (Nuneaton) Myer, Horatio Stanley, Albert (Staffs, N. W.)
Jones, Leif (Appleby) Nannetti, Joseph P. Steadman, W. C.
Jones, William (Carnarvonshire Newnes, F. (Notts, Bassetlaw) Strauss, B. S. (Mile End)
Jowett, F. W. Nicholls, George Strauss, E. A. (Abingdon)
Joyce, Michael Nolan, Joseph Stuart, James (Sunderland)
Joynson-Hicks, William Norman, Sir Henry Summerbell, T.
Kavanagh, Walter M. Norton, Capt. Cecil William Sutherland, J. E.
Kearley, Hudson E. Nuttall, Harry Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)
Kekewich, Sir George O'Brien, Kendal (Tipperary, Mid Taylor, John W. (Durham)
Kelley, George D. O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)
Kettle, Thomas Michael O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W.) Tennant, Sir Edward (Salisbury
Kilbride, Denis O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.) Tennant, H. J. (Berwickshire)
Kincaid-Smith, Captain O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool) Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.)
King, Alfred John (Knutsford) O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N Thomasson, Franklin
Lamb, Ernest H. (Rochester) O'Malley, William Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton)
Lambert, George O'Shaughnessy, P. J. Tomkinson, James
Lane-Fox, G. R. Partington, Oswald Torrance, Sir A. M.
Lardner, James Carrige Rushe Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek) Toulmin, George
Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, W.) Philipps, Owen C. (Pembroke) Trevelyan, Charles Philips
Lea, Hugh Cecil (St. Pancras, E.) Phillips, John (Longford, S.) Verney, F. W.
Lehmann, R. C. Pirie, Duncan V. Vivian, Henry
Lever, A. Levy (Essex, Harwich Pollard, Dr. Wadsworth, J.
Levy, Sir Maurice Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H. Walker, H. De R. (Leicester)
Lloyd-George, Rt. Hon. David Price, C. E. (Edinb'gh, Central) Walsh, Stephen
Lupton, Arnold Pullar, Sir Robert Walton, Joseph
Luttrell, Hugh Fownes Radford, G. H. Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent)
MacCaw, William J. MacGeagh Rea, Russell (Gloucester) Wardle, George J.
Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester) Rea, Walter Russell (Scarboro' Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney)
Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk B'ghs Redmond, John E. (Waterford) Watt, Henry A.
Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J. Rendall, Athelstan Wedgwood, Josiah C.
MacNeill, John Gordon Swift Richards, Thomas (W. Monm'th White, J. D. (Dumbartonshire)
Macpherson, J. T. Richards, T. F. (Wolverh'mpt'n White, Luke (York, E. R.)
MacVeagh, Jeremiah (Down, S.) Ridsdale, E. A. Whitehead, Rowland
MacVeigh, Charles (Donegal, E.) Roberts, G. H. (Norwich) Whitley, John Henry (Halifax)
M'Crae, George Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside) Whittaker, Sir Thomas Palmer
M'Hugh, Patrick A. Robinson, S. Wiles, Thomas
M'Killop, W. Robson, Sir William Snowdon Williams, Llewelyn (Carmarth'n
M'Laren, H. D. (Stafford, W.) Roche, John (Galway, East) Wills, Arthur Walters
M'Micking, Major G. Roe, Sir Thomas Wilson, Hon. G. G. (Hull, W.)
Maddison, Frederick Rowlands, J. Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R.)
Mallet, Charles E. Russell, T. W. Wilson, J. H. (Middlesbrough)
Manfield, Harry (Northants) Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland) Wilson, P. W. (St. Pancras, S.)
Mansfield, H. Rendall (Lincoln) Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)
Markham, Arthur Basil Schwann, C. Duncan (Hyde) Winfrey, R.
Marks, G. Croydon (Launceston) Schwann, Sir C. E. (Manchester) Yoxall, James Henry
Marnham, F. J. Scott, A. H. (Asht'n-und'r-Lyne)
Mason, A. E. W. (Coventry) Seaverns, J. H. TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr. Whiteley and Mr. J. A. Pease.
Menzies, Walter Seddon, J.
Micklem, Nathaniel Sheehy, David

Main Question again proposed.

MR. BIRRELL

rose in his place, and claimed to move, "That the Question be now put.

Question put, "That the Question be now put."

The Committee divided:—Ayes, 270; Noes, 59. (Division List No. 108.)

AYES.
Abraham, William (Cork, N. E.) Balfour, Robert (Lanark) Beale, W. P.
Agnew, George William Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight) Beck, A. Cecil
Allen, A. Acland (Christchurch) Barker, John Bell, Richard
Allen, Charles P. (Stroud) Barlow, Sir John E. (Somerset) Benn, Sir J. Williams (Devonp'rt
Armstrong, W. C. Heaton Barnard, E. B. Benn, W. (T'w'r Hamlets, S. Geo.
Asquith, Rt. Hn. Herbert Henry Barnes, G. N. Berridge, T. H. D.
Atherley-Jones, L. Barran, Rowland Hirst Bethell, Sir J H.(Essex, Romfrd
Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth) Barry, Redmond J. (Tyrone, N) Boland, John
Boulton, A. C. F. Halpin, J. Menzies, Walter
Brace, William Harcourt, Robert V.(Montrose) Micklem, Nathaniel
Bramsdon, T. A. Hardie, J. Keir (Merthyr Tydvil Mond, A.
Brigg, John Harmsworth, Cecil B. (Worc'r) Mooney, J. J.
Bright, J. A. Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale) Murray, Capt. Hn A C. (Kincard)
Brodie, H. C. Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N. E. Myer, Horatio
Brooke, Stopford Harwood, George Nannetti, Joseph P.
Bryce, J. Annan Haslam, James (Derbyshire) Newnes, F. (Notts, Bassetlaw)
Burns, Rt. Hon. John Hayden, John Patrick Nicholls, George
Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas Hazel, Dr. A. E. Nolan, Joseph
Buxton, Rt. Hn. Sydney Charles Healy, Timothy Michael Norman, Sir Henry
Byles, William Pollard Henderson, Arthur (Durham) Norton, Capt. Cecil William
Cameron, Robert Herbert, Col. Sir Ivor (Mon., S.) Nuttall, Harry
Carr-Gomm, H. W. Higham, John Sharp O'Brien, Kendal (Tipperary, Mid
Causton, Rt. Hn. Richard Knight Hobart, Sir Robert O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)
Cawley, Sir Frederick Hobhouse, Charles E. H. O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W)
Chance, Frederick William Hodge, John O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)
Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R. Hogan, Michael O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)
Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston S. Holland, Sir William Henry O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N
Clancy, John Joseph Hope, W. Bateman (Somerset, N O'Malley, William
Cleland, J. W. Horniman, Emslie John O'Shaughnessy, P. J.
Clough, William Hudson, Walter Partington, Oswald
Clynes, J. R. Hutton, Alfred Eddison Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek)
Cobbold, Felix Thornley Hyde, Clarendon Philippe, Owen C. (Pembroke)
Collins, Stephen (Lambeth) Idris, T. H. W. Phillips', John (Longford, S.)
Compton-Rickett, Sir J. Illingworth, Percy H. Pirie, Duncan V.
Corbett, C H (Sussex, E. Grinst'd Isaacs, Rufus Daniel Pollard, Dr.
Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. Johnson, John (Gateshead) Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H.
Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth) Johnson, W. (Nuneaton) Price, C. E. (Edinb'gh, Central)
Crean, Eugene Jones, Leif (Appleby) Pullar, Sir Robert
Cremer, Sir William Randal Jones, William (Carnarvonshire Radford, G. H.
Crooks, William Jowett, F. W. Rea, Russell (Gloucester)
Crosfield, A. H. Joyce, Michael Rea, Walter Russell (Scarboro'
Crossley, William J. Kavanagh, Walter M. Redmond, John E. (Waterford)
Cullinan, J. Kearley, Hudson E. Rendall, Athelstan
Dalmeny, Lord Kekewich, Sir George Richards, Thomas (W. Monm'th
Davies, Ellis William (Eifion) Kelley, George D. Richards, T. F.(Wolverh'mpt'n
Davies, Timothy (Fulham) Kettle, Thomas Michael Ridsdale, E. A.
Davies, W. Howell (Bristol, S.) Kilbride, Denis Roberts, G. H. (Norwich)
Devlin, Joseph Kincaid-Smith, Captain Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside)
Dewar, Arthur (Edinburgh, S.) King, Alfred John (Knutsford) Robinson, S.
Dickinson, W. H.(St. Pancras, N Lambert, George Robson, Sir William Snowdon
Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P. Lardner, James Carrige Rushe Roche, John (Galway, East)
Donelan, Captain A. Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, W.) Roe, Sir Thomas
Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness Lea, Hugh Cecil (St. Pancras, E) Rowlands, J.
Duncan, J. H. (York, Otley) Lehmann, R. C. Russell, T. W.
Dunn, A. Edward (Camborne) Lever, A. Levy (Essex, Harwich Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)
Dunne, Major E. Martin (Walsall Levy, Sir Maurice Schwann, C. Duncan (Hyde)
Edwards, Enoch (Hanley) Lewis, John Herbert Schwann, Sir C. E. (Manchester)
Edwards, Sir Francis (Radnor) Lloyd-George, Rt. Hon. David Scott, A. H. (Ashton-under-Lyne
Elibank, Master of Lupton, Arnold Seaverns, J. H.
Ellis, Rt. Hon. John Edward Luttrell, Hugh Fownes Seddon, J.
Erskine, David C. Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester) Seely, Colonel
Esslemont, George Birnie Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk B'ghs Sheehy, David
Evans, Sir Samuel T. Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J. Shipman, Dr. John G.
Fenwick Charles MacNeill, John Gordon Swift Silcock, Thomas Ball
Ferens, T. R. Macpherson, J. T. Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie
Findlay, Alexander MacVeagh, Jeremiah (Down, S.) Stanger, H. Y.
Flynn, James Christopher MacVeigh, Charles (Donegal, E.) Stanley, Albert (Staffs, N. W.)
Fuller, John Michael F. M'Crae, George Steadman, W. C.
Fullerton, Hugh M'Hugh, Patrick A. Straus, B. S. (Mile End)
Gladstone, Rt. Hn Herbert John M'Killop, W. Strauss, E. A. (Abingdon)
Glover, Thomas M'Laren, H. D. (Stafford, W.) Stuart, James (Sunderland)
Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford M'Micking, Major G. Summerbell, T.
Gooch, George Peabody (Bath) Maddison, Frederick Sutherland, J. E.
Grant, Corrie Mallet, Charles E. Taylor, John W. (Durham)
Grayson, Albert Victor Manfield, Harry (Northants) Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)
Greenwood, G. (Peterborough) Mansfield, H. Rendall (Lincoln) Tennant, Sir Edward (Salisbury
Greenwood, Hamar (York) Markham, Arthur Basil Tennant, H. J. (Berwickshire)
Gulland, John W. Marks, G. Croydon (Launceston Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.)
Gwynn, Stephen Lucius Marnham, F. J. Thomasson, Franklin
Hall, Frederick Mason, A. E. W. (Coventry) Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton
Tomkinson, James Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney) Wilson, Henry J. (York, W.R.
Torrance, Sir A. M. Watt, Henry A. Wilson, J. H. (Middlesbrough)
Toulmin, George Wedgwood, Josiah C. Wilson, P. W. (St. Pancras, S.)
Trevelyan Charles Philips White, J. D. (Dumbartonshire) Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)
Verney, F. W. White, Luke (York, E. R.) Winfrey, R.
Vivian, Henry Whitehead, Rowland Yoxall, James Henry
Wadsworth, J. Whitley, John Henry (Halifax)
Walker, H. De R. (Leicester) Whittaker, Sir Thomas Palmer TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr. Whiteley and Mr. J. A. Pease.
Walsh, Stephen Wiles, Thomas
Walton, Joseph Williams, Llewelyn (Carmarth'n
Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent) Wills, Arthur Walters
Wardle, George J. Wilson, Hon. G. G. (Hull, W.)
NOES.
Acland-Hood, Rt. Hn Sir Alex. F Gordon, J. Parker, Sir Gilbert (Gravesend)
Aubrey-Fletcher, Rt. Hn. Sir H. Haddock, George B. Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington
Balcarres, Lord Hamilton, Marquess of Randles, Sir John Scurrah
Banbury, Sir Frederick George Hardy, Laurence (Kent, Ashford Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel
Beach, Hn. Michael Hugh Hicks Helmsley, Viscount Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool)
Beckett, Hon. Gervase Houston, Robert Paterson Sandys, Lieut.-Col. Thos. Myles
Bridgeman, W. Clive Joynson-Hicks, William Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert
Butcher, Samuel Henry Kennaway, Rt. Hn. Sir John H. Stone, Sir Benjamin
Carlile, E. Hildred Kerry, Earl of Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)
Castlereagh, Viscount Lane-Fox, G. R. Thomson, W. Mitchell (Lanark)
Cave, George Law, Andrew Bonar (Dulwich) Thornton, Percy M.
Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) Lockwood, Rt. Hn. Lt.-Col. A. R. Valentia, Viscount
Cecil, Lord R. (Marylebone, E.) Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Dublin, S. Walker, Col. W. H. (Lancashire)
Coates, Major E. F. (Lewisham) Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred Walrond, Hon. Lionel
Courthope, G. Loyd MacCaw, William J. MacGeagh Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.)
Craik, Sir Henry M'Arthur, Charles Wortley, Rt. Hn. C. B. Stuart-
Dalrymple, Viscount Meysey-Thompson, E. C. Young, Samuel
Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- Middlemore, John Throgmorton
Duncan, Robert (Lanark, Govan Morpeth, Viscount TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr. Charles Craig and Mr. Ashley.
Fell, Arthur Morrison-Bell, Captain
Gardner, Ernest Nield, Herbert

Question put, and agreed to.

Resolved, "That, for the purposes of any Act of the present Session to make further provision with respect to University Education in Ireland, it is expedient to authorise the payment out of moneys provided by Parliament—(a) of the remuneration of the Secretary to the Commissioners, and of any persons appointed or employed by them, and of any expenses incurred by the Commissioners in the execution of such Act; and (b) of grants for the purposes of either of the new Universities, or of the constituent colleges of the new University at Dublin, or of the governing bodies thereof."

Resolution to be reported To-morrow.