§ MR. PIRIE (Aberdeen, N.), in asking leave to introduce a Bill to amend the provisions for the future government of Scotland, said he would offer no apology for introducing a measure of that sort to the notice of the House, for the scant opportunities which any Scottish Member and the people of Scotland got, in his opinion, justified Scottish Members in taking every opportunity to put their case before the House and the country. If that was not sufficient justification, he thought the recent action regarding Scottish measures in another place would be quite sufficient. He merely wished to expose the actual situation as regarded Scotland in all moderation, and to ask the House, in a sense of fair play and justice, whether they thought they had been fairly treated. He would take the three leading social questions.
§ MR. A. J. BALFOUR (City of London)said he understood the hon. Member was rising under what was commonly called the ten minutes rule to explain the provisions of a Bill, but he gathered that instead of doing that he was going through 969 the various questions on which he thought his countrymen had not been properly treated. He asked if that was in order under the Standing Orders.
§ MR. SPEAKERThe Standing Order lays down that a brief explanatory statement may be made explaining the provisions of a Bill, and I think the hon. Member should confine himself to that as much as possible.
§ MR. PIRIEsaid that that was his intention, but beforehand he thought he was justified in showing up the necessity for such a measure.
§ MR. SPEAKERI would remind the hon. Member that by custom his time is very short.
§ MR. PIRIE, continuing, said he intended to be brief He was dealing with the three social questions of education, land, and temperance, which were a sufficient proof of the necessity of the measure in Scotland. He claimed as a Scottish Member his right to expose the treatment meted out by the House to Scottish questions. As regarded Scottish Estimates, it was not denied by the late Prime Minister that on an average for the last ten years they had only had six hours per annum. As regarded the formation of the Scottish Standing Committee, he would point out that that Committee was passed sub silentio by the House. He would now come to the Bill. The Bill was merely to give effect to a Resolution which had already been passed by the House in 1894, moved by the hon. Member for Kincardine, and seconded by the present Chief Secretary for Ireland. That Resolution, favouring Home Rule for Scotland, and declaring the necessity for the establishment of a Scottish Legislature, was passed by a large majority in the House. The main purposes of the Bill were to devolve upon a legislative body in Scotland power to make laws on matters exclusively relating to Scotland. It specifically enumerated those measures, and no power was given to legislate on any other measures. The executive power continued with the Crown, and it was proposed to revive the old Scottish Privy 970 Council, so that an executive committee might advise His Majesty as to what was most required for the government of Scotland. Power was also given to impose taxes, except duties of Customs and Excise. Arrangements were made for a proper adjustment of financial relations between Scotland and the Imperial Parliament. He wished to emphasise the fact that every provision of the Bill was subordinate or subject to the paramount control of the Imperial Parliament. He was only carrying on work begun by his predecessor, the late Dr. Hunter, a name which all who were familiar with Scottish questions would always cherish. He introduced a Bill much the same as the present one in 1892, and on the back of that Bill was the name of the present Lord Chancellor, that of the present Under-Secretary of State for India, and that of the late Financial Secretary to the Admiralty. This was not the first Bill he himself had introduced, for in 1899 he introduced a similar measure, and it might interest the House to know that on the back of that Bill were the names of the present Chancellor of the Exchequer, the present Secretary for Ireland, the present Lord Advocate, and Lord Justice Fletcher Moulton, who was no longer in the House. He would not dwell on the example of other countries beyond mentioning that in the United States of America they had no less than fifty-three State Parliaments, under one central body, and it was important to remember the sub-division of labour that prevailed in every civilised country. At the present moment this House acted as a millstone to Scottish national development, and that they must safeguard their dearest birthright was the reason for his introduction of this measure.
§ Motion made, and Question proposed, "That leave be given to bring in a Bill to amend the provisions for the future Government of Scotland."—(Mr. Pirie.)
§ MR. A. J. BALFOURThe hon. and gallant Gentleman has had an opportunity, a brief opportunity, under our Standing Orders, but still an opportunity, of explaining what the Bill is which he introduces to the House. Instead of availing himself of that opportunity he has indicated various grievances 971 under which he thinks Scotland is suffering, and he has occupied his time in enumerating various members of the Government and others who, he tells us, have in times past made themselves responsible for the unknown provisions of the measure which he is now asking the House to accept. I put it to any gentleman who has listened to the hon. and gallant Member whether he has the slightest conception of what are to be the duties of the Committee of the Privy Council of Scotland, which is to advise His Majesty; what is to happen if the advice of that Committee differs from the advice given by the King's advisers responsible to this House; whether he has given to the House the smallest conception of whether Scotland is to retain a number of representatives in the House for dealing with matters purely English, whilst a number of matters purely Scottish are withdrawn from this House; and how he thinks it would be fair to the Party to which he belongs if in the reversals of fate the majority should be somewhat reduced and it was left entirely to English Members to vote upon English Education Bills and English Licensing Bills. He has not explained to the House either what is to be the relation between the Treasury and the Scottish Parliament, which is apparently to have unlimited power of putting on direct taxation presumably in addition to the very great taxation put on by the British Chancellor of the Exchequer, or whether this House is to continue to discuss Scottish Estimates in so far as they depend upon money raised in other parts of the United Kingdom than Scotland. If that is the provision of the Bill I should like to know how his grievance with regard to the discussion of Scottish Estimates in this House is likely to be remedied by the measure, of which I will not say he has
§ given an account to the House, but of which he has indicated certain objects which he hopes it will accomplish.
§ MR. A. J. BALFOURThe hon. and gallant Gentleman could have had his Bill printed had he been content to follow the ordinary course permitted to private Members, and it could then have been read a first time—there would have been no challenge, and we should have been acquainted in authentic form with the measure which he proposes instead of having to take a decision upon the strangely inadequate sketch with which he has been good enough to favour us. I am not as a rule in favour of dividing against First Readings; I do not think it is a good general practice, and private Members can always avoid it if they choose to take advantage of the privileges which our Standing Orders now confer. If the hon. and gallant Gentleman insists upon asking the House to read a first time a scheme so crude that apparently its own author cannot explain it to the House—[Cries of "Oh, oh!"]—or will not explain it to the House, then I am bound to say, so far as I am concerned, I cannot permit any proposal to destroy the authority of this House, to do one of two things, either to exclude Scottish Members from this House or to leave them in a commanding position with regard to purely English legislation—I cannot allow a scheme of that kind to pass unchallenged, and if nobody else goes into the division lobby against it I will.
§ Question put.
§ The House divided:—Ayes, 257; Noes, 102. (Division List No. 150.)
975| AYES. | ||
| Abraham, William (Cork, N. E.) | Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth) | Berridge, T. H. D. |
| Abraham, William (Rhondda) | Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight) | Bethell, Sir J H.(Essex, Romf'rd |
| Acland, Francis Dyke | Barker, John | Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine |
| Ainsworth, John Stirling | Barnes, G. N. | Black, Arthur W. |
| Alden, Percy | Barry, Redmond J. (Tyrone, N.) | Boland, John |
| Ambrose, Robert | Beale, W. P. | Bottomley, Horatio |
| Ashton, Thomas Gair | Bell, Richard | Boulton, A. C. F. |
| Asquith, Rt. Hn. Herbert Henry | Benn, W. (T'w'r Hamlets, S. Geo) | Brace, William |
| Atherley-Jones, L. | Bennett, E. N. | Branch, James |
| Brigg, John | Herbert, Col. Sir Ivor (Mon., S.) | O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S.) |
| Brocklehurst, W. B. | Herbert, T. Arnold (Wycombe) | O'Dowd, John |
| Brooke, Stopford | Higham, John Sharp | O'Grady, J. |
| Brunner, J. F. L.(Lancs., Leigh) | Hobart, Sir Robert | O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N |
| Brunner, Rt HnSir J. T (Cheshire | Hodge, John | O'Shaughnessy, P. J. |
| Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn | Hogan, Michael | Partington, Oswald |
| Burns, Rt. Hon. John | Holt, Richard Durning | Pease, J. A. (Saffron Walden) |
| Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas | Hope, W. Bateman (Somerset, N | Phillips, John (Longford, S.) |
| Byles, William Pollard | Horniman, Emslie John | Pickersgill, Edward Hare |
| Cameron, Robert | Howard, Hon. Geoffrey | Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H. |
| Carr-Gomm, H. W. | Hudson, Walter | Price, C. E. (Edinb'gh, Central) |
| Causton, Rt. Hn. Richard Knight | Idris, T. H. W. | Priestley, W. E. B. (Bradford, E.) |
| Cheetham, John Frederick | Illingworth, Percy H. | Pullar, Sir Robert |
| Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R. | Jacoby, Sir James Alfred | Radford, G. H. |
| Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston S. | Jardine, Sir J. | Rea, Walter Russell (Scarboro') |
| Clancy, John Joseph | Johnson, John (Gateshead) | Reddy, M. |
| Cleland, J. W. | Johnson, W. (Nuneaton) | Redmond, John E. (Waterford) |
| Clough, William | Jones, Leif (Appleby) | Rees, J. D. |
| Cobbold, Felix Thornley | Joyce, Michael | Rendall Athelstan |
| Collins, Sir Wm. J. (S. Pancras, W | Kavanagh, Walter M. | Richards, T. F. (Wolverh'mpt'n |
| Cooper, G. J. | Kekewich, Sir George | Richardson, A. |
| Corbett, C H (Sussex, E. Grinst'd | Kennedy, Vincent Paul | Ridsdale, E. A. |
| Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. | Kilbride, Denis | Roberts, G. H. (Norwich) |
| Cotton, Sir H. J. S. | King, Alfred John (Knutsford) | Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.) |
| Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth) | Laidlaw, Robert | Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside) |
| Crean, Eugene | Lamb, Edmund G. (Leominster | Robinson, S. |
| Crooks, William | Lamont, Norman | Robson, Sir William Snowdon |
| Crossley, William J. | Lardner, James Carrige Rushe | Roche, John (Galway, East) |
| Cullinan, J. | Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, W.) | Roe, Sir Thomas |
| Dalziel, James Henry | Layland-Barratt, Francis | Rogers, F. E. Newman |
| Davies, Ellis William (Eifion) | Lea, Hugh Cecil (St. Pancras. E) | Rowlands, J. |
| Davies, Timothy (Fulham) | Leese, Sir Joseph F. (Accrington | Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter |
| Devlin, Joseph | Lehmann, R. C. | Russell, T. W. |
| Dewar, Arthur (Edinburgh, S.) | Levy, Sir Maurice | Rutherford, V. H. (Brentford) |
| Dewar, Sir J. A. (Inverness-sh.) | Lewis, John Herbert | Seddon, J. |
| Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles | Lloyd-George, Rt. Hon. David | Shaw, Rt. Hon. T. (Hawick B.) |
| Dillon, John | Lyell, Charles Henry | Shipman, Dr. John G. |
| Donelan, Captain A. | Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester) | Sinclair, Rt. Hon. John |
| Duckworth, James | Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk B'ghs | Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie |
| Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness | Mackarness, Frederic C. | Snowden, P. |
| Duncan, J. H. (York, Otley) | Maclean, Donald | Stanger, H. Y. |
| Elibank, Master of | Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J. | Stanley, Albert (Staffs, N. W.) |
| Ellis, Rt. Hon. John Edward | MacNeill, John Gordon Swift | Stanley, Hn. A. Lyulph (Chesh.) |
| Erskine, David C. | Macpherson, J. T. | Steadman, W. C. |
| Fenwick, Charles | MacVeagh, Jeremiah (Down, S | Stewart, Halley (Greenock) |
| Ferens, T. R. | MacVeigh Charles (Donegal, E. | Strauss, E. A. (Abingdon) |
| Ferguson, R. C. Munro | M'Callum John M. | Stuart, James (Sunderland) |
| Flynn, James Christopher | M'Crae, George | Summerbell, T. |
| Foster, Rt. Hon. Sir Walter | M'Hugh, Patrick A. | Sutherland, J. E. |
| Fullerton, Hugh | M'Killop, W. | Taylor, John W. (Durham) |
| Glover, Thomas | M'Laren, H. D. (Stafford, W.) | Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe) |
| Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford | M'Micking, Major G. | Tennant, H. J. (Berwickshire) |
| Grant, Corrie | Maddison, Frederick | Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E) |
| Greenwood, G. (Peterborough) | Manfield, Harry (Northants) | Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton |
| Gulland, John W. | Massie, J. | Thorne, William (West Ham) |
| Gurdon, Rt Hn Sir W. Brampton | Masterman, C. F. G. | Tomkinson, James |
| Gwynn, Stephen Lucius | Menzies, Walter | Torrance, Sir A. M. |
| Hall, Frederick | Molteno, Percy Alport | Trevelyan, Charles Philips |
| Halpin, J. | Money, L. G. Chiozza | Verney, F. W. |
| Harcourt, Rt. Hn. L. (Rossendale | Mooney, J. J. | Villiers, Ernest Amherst |
| Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose | Morgan, G. Hay (Cornwall) | Vivian, Henry |
| Hardie, J. Keir (Merthyr Tydvil | Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen) | Wadsworth, J. |
| Hardy, George A. (Suffolk) | Morse, L. L. | Walker, H. De R. (Leicester) |
| Hart-Davies, T. | Morton, Alpheus Cleophas | Walters, John Tudor |
| Harvey, W. E.(Derbyshire, N. E. | Murray Capt. Hn A C. (Kincard) | Walton, Joseph |
| Haslam, James (Derbyshire) | Murray, James (Aberdeen, E.) | Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent |
| Haworth, Arthur A. | Nannetti, Joseph P. | Wardle, George J. |
| Hayden, John Patrick | Nicholls, George | Waring, Walter |
| Hazel, Dr. A. E. | Nolan, Joseph | Waterlow, D. S. |
| Hazleton, Richard | Norton, Capt. Cecil William | Watt, Henry A. |
| Helme, Norval Watson | O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) | Wedgwood, Josiah C. |
| Henderson, Arthur (Durham) | O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W.) | White, Sir George (Norfolk) |
| White, J. D. (Dumbartonshire) | Williams, Osmond (Merioneth) | Wood, T. M'Kinnon |
| White, Luke (York, E. R.) | Williamson, A. | Yoxall, James Henry |
| Whiteley, Rt. Hn. G. (York, W. R | Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R.) | |
| Whitley, John Henry (Halifax) | Wilson, P. W. (St. Pancras, S.) | TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr. Pirie and Mr. Eugene Wason. |
| Wilkie, Alexander | Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton) | |
| Williams, J. (Glamorgan) | Winfrey, R. | |
| NOES. | ||
| Anson, Sir William Reynell | Faber, George Denison (York) | Napier, T. B. |
| Anstruther-Gray, Major | Faber, Capt. W. V. (Hants, W.) | Parker, Sir Gilbert (Gravesend) |
| Arnold-Forster, Rt. Hn. Hugh O | Fardell, Sir T. George | Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington |
| Ashley, W. W. | Fell, Arthur | Percy, Earl |
| Baldwin, Stanley | Fetherstonhaugh, Godfrey | Powell, Sir Francis Sharp |
| Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (City Lond) | Gardner, Ernest | Randles, Sir John Scurrah |
| Banbury, Sir Frederick George | Gordon, J. | Raphael, Herbert H. |
| Baring, Capt. Hn G. (Winchester | Goulding, Edward Alfred | Ratcliff, Major R. F. |
| Barran, Rowland Hirst | Gretton, John | Renton, Leslie |
| Barrie, H. T. (Londonderry, N.) | Haddock, George B. | Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall) |
| Beach, Hn. Michael Hugh Hicks | Hamilton, Marquess of | Ronaldshay, Earl of |
| Bellairs, Carlyon | Harris, Frederick Leverton | Sandys, Lieut.-Col, Thos. Myles |
| Bignold, Sir Arthur | Harrison-Broadley, H. B. | Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert |
| Bowles, G. Stewart | Hay, Hon. Claude George | Sheffield, Sir Berkeley George D. |
| Bridgeman, W. Clive | Helmsley, Viscount | Starkey, John R. |
| Butcher, Samuel Henry | Hill, Sir Clement | Talbot, Rt. Hn. J. G. (Oxf'd Univ |
| Campbell, Rt. Hon. J. H. M. | Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield | Tennant, Sir Edward (Salisbury |
| Carlile, E. Hildred | Hunt, Rowland | Thomson, W. Mitchell- (Lanark) |
| Castlereagh, Viscount | Kennaway, Rt. Hn. Sir John H. | Thornton, Percy M. |
| Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) | Kerry, Earl of | Walker, Col. W. H. (Lancashire |
| Cecil, Lord John P. Joicey- | Kimber, Sir Henry | Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid) |
| Cecil, Lord R. (Marylebone, E.) | Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm. | Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney) |
| Chamberlain, Rt. Hn J. A. (Worc. | Law, Andrew Bonar (Dulwich) | Whitbread, Howard |
| Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry | Lockwood, Rt. Hn. Lt.-Col. A. R. | Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.) |
| Clive, Percy Archer | Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham | Willoughby de Eresby, Lord |
| Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E. | Lowe, Sir Francis William | Wilson, A. Stanley (York. E. R.) |
| Cory, Sir Clifford John | Lupton, Arnold | Winterton, Earl |
| Courthope, G. Loyd | MacCaw, William J. MacGeagh | Wortley, Rt. Hn. C. BStuart- |
| Craig, Captain James (Down, E.) | M'Arthur, Charles | Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George |
| Craik, Sir Henry | Mason, James F. (Windsor) | Younger, George. |
| Cross, Alexander | Meysey-Thompson, E. C. | |
| Dalrymple, Viscount | Middlemore, John Throgmorton | TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Sir Alexander Acland-Hood and Lord Balcarres. |
| Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P. | Mildmay, Francis Bingham | |
| Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- | Moore, William | |
| Du Cros, Arthur Philip | Morpeth, Viscount | |
| Duncan, Robert(Lanark, Govan | Morrison-Bell, Captain |
Motion made, and Question, "That this House do now adjourn."—(Mr. Joseph Pease,)—put, and agreed to.
§ Bill ordered to be brought in by Mr. Pirie, Mr. Barnes, Mr. Gulland, Mr. Robert Harcourt, Mr. Lamont, Mr. Murray Macdonald, Captain Murray, Mr. Ponsonby, Mr. Charges Price, Mr. Sutherland, Mr. Eugene Wason, and Mr. Wilkie.