HC Deb 15 July 1908 vol 192 cc976-81

SIR F. BANBURY moved to leave out "may" and insert "shall." The object of his Amendment was to provide that the local authority should see that compensation was paid, not exceeding one-half of the value of the bees or articles or appliances which were destroyed. All previous Acts of Parliament which dealt with the destruction of diseased animals enacted that the compensation should be obligatory. There was a clause to that effect in the Diseases of Animals Act of 1984. In this case compensation would not be more than half. Sections 14, 15, and 16 all contained the same provision, that the compensation should be obligatory. They had been told that the reason it was not made obligatory in this case was that in the Insect Act of last session compensation was permissive. He found the Insect Act referred to the Act of 1877, cap. 268, which dealt with the Colorado beetle. It was true that under that Act compensation was not compulsory on the local authority, except that it was not left in their lands whether or not they should pay, but in those of the Privy Council. The Acts he had cited practically compelled the local authority to pay compensation. The only Act which did not do so was the Act of last session, and that only dealt with insects which came over and destroyed crops. Insects were not kept as an industry as bees were. He was sure the House did not wish that the local authority should have any temptation to be unfair. They should not have the option of saying that one man was deserving and they would give him compensation and refuse it to another because he was not deserving. Having, taken a man's hive and all the paraphernalia of his industry they ought to pay in every case where in the interests of the community they destroyed bees.

Amendment proposed— In page 2, line 26, to leave out the word 'may,' and to insert the word 'shall.'"—(Sir F. Banbury.)

Question proposed, "That the word 'may' stand part of the clause."

*The VICE-PRESIDENT of the DEPARTMENT of AGRICULTURE for IRELAND (Mr. T. W. Russell,) Tyrone, S.

said he wished to point out the radical difference between the Diseases of Animals Act and this small measure. In the first case the compensation came out of the rates or out of public money provided by Parliament. In this case it came from a joint fund, part of which was paid by the Department of Agriculture, and part out of a penny rate struck for the purpose of agricultural education. The committee of agriculture in each county was to administer the Act, and as they were engaged in the work of promoting these small industries they naturally took a great interest in these questions, and it would be possible to provide compensation up to a half in at least the great majority of cases, but if they made it compulsory the result would be that the Act would be blocked, and would not be enforced at all. The Bill was founded on a clause of the Act of last session, and there was more analogy between bees and the insects that Act dealt with than between bees and bullocks.

MR. CHARLES CRAIG (Antrim, S.)

hoped the right hon. Gentle mm would not really oppose the Amendment. If he did he would be causing a great deal of injury possibly to a great number of innocent persons. The section would permit not only infected bees, but perfectly healthy full-blooded bees, in an area arbitrarily declared to be infected, to be destroyed. The fixing of that area was only a precautionary measure, and it was very probable that a large number of bees in the area would not be infected at all. The fixing of the area was only a precautionary measure to prevent the spread of disease, and if bees were arbitrarily seized upon and destroyed, the owners should be assured that they would get compensation, without having to go through the laborious process set out in the Bill. It provided that in the first instance the Department of Agriculture must find that it was just and proper that compensation should be given. But that was not enough. After they had issued their edict that the unfortunate beekeeper was to get possibly one-third of the value of his bees, that had to be corroborated by the local authority, and if they withheld their consent the unfortunate owner, through no fault of his own, got no compensation. Except that it was true that it was rather hard to compare a bee with a bullock, the principle underlying this and the Diseases of Animals Act was precisely the same. In the latter case the compensation was two-thirds of the value, and where an animal was not diseased, but was killed as a precautionary measure to prevent the spread of disease, the full value was paid. If the right hon. Gentleman could not do that the least he could do was to allow compensation to the extent of half the value to be compulsory. To restrict the compensation to a half was in itself a great injustice, but they were willing to waive that point in the hope that at least the compensation should be made compulsory in all cases.

MR. CARLILE (Hertfordshire, St. Albans)

did not think the Committee realised that this was an important industry in certain parts of Ireland. There were in certain comities as many as 1,200 beekeepers who had appliances of more or less value and novel construction. It was proposed under the clause arbitrarily to take away their property. It was not shown by any means that it would be done when there was a foul brood; it would be done when any sets of hives were alleged to be contaminated, and it was to be done in an arbitrary fashion. The least the right hon. Gentle-

man could do under the circumstances was to adopt the Amendment and make the payment of compensation compulsory. No doubt it was true that in many cases the bees would die in any event, but on the other hand there was a large number of cases in which they were probably perfectly sound. He therefore had much pleasure in supporting the Amendment.

Question put.

The Committee divided:-Ayes, 169; Noes, 34. (Division List No. 197.)

AYES.
Acland, Francis Dyke Everett, R. Lacey Marks, G. Croydon (Launceston
Agar-Robartes, Hon. T. C. R. Fiennes, Hon. Eustace Marnham. F. J.
Allen, A. Acland (Christchurch) Findlay, Alexander Mason, A. E. W. (Coventry)
Allen, Charles P. (Stroud) Fuller, John Michael F. Middlebrook, William
Ashton, Thomas Gair Fullerton, Hugh Mond, A.
Balfour, Robert (Lanark) Gill, A. H. Montagu, Hon. E. S.
Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight) Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herbert John Morgan, G. Hay (Cornwall)
Barran. Rowland Hirst Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford Morrell, Philip
Barry, Redmond J.(Tyrone, N.) Gooch, George Peabody(Bath) Morse, L. L.
Beale, W. P. Gulland, John W. Murphy. John (Kerry, East)
Beck. A. Cecil Harcourt, Robert. V. (Montrose) Nannetti, Joseph P.
Benn, Sir J. Williams(Devonp'rt Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth) Nicholls, George
Bennett, E. N. Haworth, Arthur A. Nicholson, Charles N. (Doncast'r
Berridge, T. H. D. Hazel, Dr. A. E. Norton. Capt. Cecil William
Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine Hedges, A. Paget O'Brien. Patrick (Kilkenny)
Black, Arthur W. Hemmerde, Edward George O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)
Bowerman, C. W. Henderson, Arthur (Durham) O'Grady, J.
Brigg, John Henry, Charles S. Parker, James (Halifax)
Bright, T. A. Herbert, Col. Sir Ivor (Mon., S.) Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek)
Brodie, H. C. Higham, John Sharp Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H.
Brooke, Stopford Hobart, Sir Robert Price, C. E. (Edinb'gh, Central)
Brunner, J. F. L. (Lancs., Leigh) Hodge, John Price, Sir Robert J. (Norfolk, E.)
Bryce, J. Annan Hogan, Michael Priestley, W. E. B. (Bradford, E.)
Byles, William Pollard Holden, E. Hopkinson Radfordm, G. H.
Carr-Gomm, H. W. Hope, W. Bateman(Somerset, N. Raphael, Herbert H.
Causton, Rt Hn. Richard Knight Horniman, Emslie John Rea, Russell (Gloucester)
Cheetham, John Frederick Howard, Hon. Geoffrey Rea. Walter Russe'l (Scarboro)
Cleland. J. W. Hudson, Walter Richards. T. F. (Wolverh'mpt'n
Clough, William Islingworth, Perey H. Richardson, A.
Cobbold, Felix Thornley Jones, Leif (Appleby) Roberts. Charles H. (Lincoin)
Collins, Stephen (Lambeth) Kekewich, Sir George Roberts. G. H. (Norwich)
Collins, Sir Wm. J (S. Pancras, W. Kettle. Thomas Michael Robinson. S.
Cooper, G. J. Laidlaw, Robert Roe, Sir Thomas
Corbett, C H (Sussex, E. Grinst'd Lamont, Norman Rogers, F. E. Newman
Cotton, Sir H. J. S. Law, Hugh A.(Donegal. W.) Russell, T. W.
Craig, Herbert J.(Tynemouth) Lehmann, R. C. Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel)
Crean, Eugene Lever, A. Levy (Essex, Harwich Searisbrick, T. T. L.
Crooks, William Levy, Sir Maurice Schwann. C. Duncan (Hyde)
Davies, David (Montgomery Co. Luttrell, Hugh Fownes Seddon, J.
Davies, Timothy (Fulham) Lyell, Charles Henry Seely, Colonel
Devlin. Joseph Lynch, H. B. Shackleton, David James
Duckworth. James Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester) Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)
Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness MacNeill, John Gordon Swift Silcock, Thomas Ball
Dunn, A. Edward (Camborne) Macpherson, J, T. Sinclair, Rt. Hon. John
Dunne, Major E. Martin (Walsall MacVeagh, Jeremiah (Down, S. Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie
Edwards, Clement (Denbigh) MacVeigh, Charles (Donegal, E.) Soares. Ernest J.
Edwards, Sir Francis (Radnor) M'Crae, Sir George Stanley, Albert (Staffs. N. W.)
Essex, R. W. Manfield, Harry (Northants) Stanley, Hn. A. Lyulph (Chesh.)
Esslemont, George Birnie Mansfield, H. Rendall (Lincoln) Strachey, Sir Edward
Evans, Sir Samuel T. Markham, Arthur Basil Straus, B. S. (Mile End)
Strauss, E. A. (Abingdon) Walsh, Stephen Whittaker, Rt. Hn Sir Thomas P
Summerbell, T. Warner, Thomas Courtenay T. Wilson, J. W. (Worcestersh. N.)
Sutherland, J. E. Waterlow, D. S. Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)
Taylor, Theodore C.(Radcliffe) Watt, Henry A.
Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton White, Sir George (Norfolk) TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr. Joseph Pease and Master of Elibank.
Tomkinson, James White, J. D. (Dumbartonshire)
Toulmin, George White, Luke (York, E. R.)
Verney, F. W. Whitley, John Henry (Halifax)
NOES.
Anson, Sir William Reynell Gibbs, G. A. (Bristol, West) Starkey, John R.
Balcarres, Lord Gretton, John Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)
Beach, Hn. Michael Hugh Hicks Hunt, Rowland Thomson, W. Mitchell-(Lanark)
Bignold, Sir Arthur Morpeth, Viscount Valentia, Viscount
Bridgeman, W. Clive Morrison-Bell, Captain Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid)
Brotherton, Edward Allen Pease, Herbert Pike(Darlington Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.)
Carlile, E. Hildred Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-
Cecil, Evelyn (Anton Manor) Renton, Leslie Younger, George
Cecil, Lord John P. Joicey- Ronaldshay, Earl of
Clark, George Smith Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.) TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Sir Frederick Banbury and Mr. Charles Craig.
Coates, Maj. E. F. (Lewisham Sheffield, Sir Berkeley George D.
Dalrymple, Viscount Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East)
Forster, Henry William Stanier, Beville

Bill read a second time and committed to a Committee of the Whole House for Monday next.—(Mr. Birrell.)

Clause agreed to, and Bill reported without Amendment; As amended, in Committee, considered; read the third time, and passed.