Commons Sitting of 17 December 1908

Preamble
The House met at a quarter before Three of the Clock.

PRIVATE BILL BUSINESS.
Ards Railways Bill.—Lords Amendments, in pursuance of the Order of the House of 23rd July, considered, and agreed to.
Perth Corporation Order Confirmation Bill.—Lords Amendments considered, and agreed to.
Water of Leith Purification and Sewerage Order Confirmation Bill.—Considered; read the third time, and passed.

RETURNS, REPORTS, ETC.
  COAL MINES (EIGHT HOURS) (No. 2) BILL.
  Petitions against, From Cardiff and other places; Failsworth and other places; London; Manchester and other places; Messrs. J. and P. Coats, Limited, and other Textile Companies; Newcastle upon Tyne and other places; and Sheringham and other places; to lie upon the Table.
  IMPORTATION OF PLUMAGE PROHIBITION BILL.
  Petition of Manufacturers in the United Kingdom, against; to lie upon the Table.
  SCOTTISH LOCAL AUTHORITIES (DEPUTATION EXPENSES).
  Return presented, relative thereto [ordered 30th July; Mr. Pirie]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 374.]
  AGRICULTURAL STATISTICS (IRELAND).
  Copy presented, of Return of prices of Crops, Live Stock, and other Irish Agricultural Products for 1907–8 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
  EAST INDIA (ADVISORY AND LEGISLATIVE COUNCILS, ETC.)
  Copy presented, of Vol. I., Proposals of the Government of India and Despatch of the Secretary of State [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
Oral Answers to Questions
  QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS CIRCULATED WITH THE VOTES.

    Hours of London Horse Bus Drivers and Conductors.
    MR. MORRELL: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether his attention has been called to the hours which the drivers and conductors of horse omnibuses in London are obliged to work; whether he is aware that in many cases these amount to more than sixteen hours a day and to an average of eighty-five or ninety hours a week; and whether he will make a Return showing the number of men employed, the average rate of wages by the hour, and the average number of hours of work by the day and by the week.
    (Answered by Mr. Secretary Gladstone.) The information in the possession of the police does not show that the hours are so long as the hon. Member supposes; but full particulars could be obtained only by application to the companies, and I do not think that the publication of a Return is desirable. I am making inquiry into the matter, but, as I stated last week, I have no direct authority to interfere.

    Channel Islands Shipping Laws.
    SIR W. J. COLLINS: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether any further steps have been taken during this year to assimilate the shipping laws of Guernsey and Jersey to those obtaining in this country.
    (Answered by Mr. Secretary Gladstone.) The law officers of Guernsey are at the present time in Jersey holding a conference with the Jersey law officers upon the subject.

    Policing of Primrose Hill.
    SIR W. J. COLLINS: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department
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    whether any complaints have reached the Commissioner of Metropolitan Police in reference to insufficient policing of Primrose Hill; and whether he proposes to increase the number of constables employed there on night duty.
    (Answered by Mr. Secretary Gladstone.) The police are responsible for Primrose Hill by night only, not by day. During the past twelve months only one complaint has reached the Commissioner of Police, and it is not at present proposed to increase the number of constables employed on night duty at this place.

    Land Transfer Acts.
    MR. REMNANT: To ask Mr. Attorney-General whether he is aware that new rules have been framed under the Land Transfer Acts, to come into operation on 1st January next, whereby the ad valorem fees payable in connection with the purchase and mortgage of property after first registration are largely increased; will he explain why higher fees are to be charged on subsequent dealings with the registered property than are charged on first registration; and whether he will postpone the introduction of the new rules until the Royal Commission at present engaged in taking evidence on the working of the registration system has reported on the working of the system and on the expediency of continuing or determining its operation.
    (Answered by Sir W. Robson.) I am informed that the Lord Chancellor, by whom the rules were made, was fully aware of the considerations mentioned in the Question, and discussed the matter both with the advisory committee under the Act and with the Royal Commission. The rules have been published, and it is not intended to recall them.

    District Council Chairmen.
    MR. CROYDON MARKS: To ask the President of the Board of Education if the chairman of a rural or an urban district council is ex-officio a governor, and entitled to sit and act as such, of a secondary school when such school is situated within the area of such rural or urban district.
    (Answered Mr. Runciman.) No, Sir, unless the scheme or other instrument governing the foundation so provides.

    Printed Notices in Stage Carriages.
    SIR WILLIAM BULL: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he is aware that under the existing Act the exhibition of printed notices in Metropolitan stage carriages of matters affecting the public in relation to traffic working is prohibited; and, if so, whether an amendment of the regulations in this direction will be considered.
    SIR WILLIAM BULL: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he has observed that, according to the Metropolitan police accounts for 1907–8, a sum of £41,658 11s. 5d. was the annual expenditure in the licensing of public vehicles and drivers and conductors in the Metropolitan area; if he will grant a statement showing fully how this total is made up; what this sum amounts to per vehicle and per man licensed; and a comparative statement in detail showing the cost of this work for each of the last ten years.
    (Answered by Mr. Secretary Gladstone.) These Questions were put to me a few days ago by the hon. Member for Hoxton. I circulated Answers to them with the Votes on Tuesday morning last, and I have caused copies of these Answers to be sent to the hon. Member.

    Taxi-Cab Meters.
    MR. G. GOOCH: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether his attention has been drawn to the practice of falsifying the taximeter on motor-cabs; and, if so, whether he will take steps to check it.
    (Answered by Mr. Secretary Gladstone.) It is a fact that in some instance taximeters have been falsified. The Public Carriage Department of New Scotland Yard have under consideration the introduction of checks, which it is hoped will prevent this in future.

    Prison Detention Pending Trial.
    MR. PICKERSGILL: To ask the Secretary of State
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    for the Home Department whether he is aware that in 1905 (the last year for which we have full statistics) 450 persons were detained in prison for twelve weeks and upwards before trial, and that of these thirty-one were acquitted; whether his attention has been drawn to the observations of Mr. Justice Bucknill, at the last Assizes at Carmarthen, on the acquittal of a young labourer tried before him, that he was almost horrified to find that the prisoner had been incarcerated for four months awaiting trial for a trivial theft; whether he is aware that another person was tried before the same Judge at the Assizes at Bristol who had been imprisoned awaiting trial for a similar period, and was discharged; and will he, as his circular letter to the Justices of August, 1906, has failed to produce the desired effect, instruct every governor of a goal to report to him at once each case in which a prisoner is committed charged with a trivial offence when a long time must elapse before trial, so that in suitable cases, by application being made for bail by the Director of Public Prosecutions, or otherwise, this state of affairs may be remedied.
    (Answered by Mr. Secretary Gladstone.) I am aware of the figures mentioned, and have seen a newspaper report of one of the cases mentioned by the hon. Member. I would refer him to the Answers given by me to Questions in this House on 8th November, 1906, and 15th August, 1907. As he is aware, I have repeatedly brought to the notice of magistrates the importance of releasing prisoners on bail in proper cases, and have urged them to grant bail freely; but I fear that the suggestion made in the Question is not a practicable one. The Home Office is already overburdened with the duties which properly belong to it, and I am satisfied that it would do more harm than good if I attempted a general revision of the decisions of the Courts in matters in which they are in a much better position to judge of the circumstances than my Department can possibly be. I will make inquiry in the two cases mentioned in the hon. Member's Question, and endeavour to ascertain where the fault, if any, lies.

    Inspection of School Buildings.
    CAPTAIN FABER: To ask the President of the Local Government Board whether all buildings or houses used as private or public schools have to be certified as suitable by the sanitary authorities.
    (Answered by Mr. John Burns.) No, Sir.

    Petrol Accidents.
    CAPTAIN FABER: To ask the President of the Local Government Board whether, looking at the numerous accidents that occur through taking petrol close to a naked light, he will consider the desirability of requiring that bottles in which it is sold should be marked "highly inflammable," or "not to be used near a naked light."
    (Answered by Mr. Secretary Gladstone.) I beg to answer this Question on behalf of my right hon. friend. Under Section 6 of the Petroleum Act, 1871, all petroleum spirit sold or exposed for sale must be marked "highly inflammable," under a penalty of not more than £5 and forfeiture. I may add that I am about to appoint a Departmental Committee to inquire into the sufficiency of the existing regulations relating to the storage, use, and conveyance of petroleum spirit, and to report what further precautions, if any, are desirable.

    London Police Magistrate and Anti-Vaccinationists.
    MR. LUPTON: To ask the President of the Local Government Board whether his attention has been drawn to the remarks made by Mr. Hutton, one of the London police magistrates, in connection with a case in which a father, who was summoned before him on 24th October last for the non-vaccination of his child, pleaded a conscientious objection, to the effect that the legislature did not give the magistrates power of exemption when a conscientious scruple is pleaded on a summons; and whether he will consider the desirability of introducing a Bill giving magistrates that power.
    (Answered by Mr. John Burns.) I have seen a newspaper report of the case
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    mentioned. As my hon. friend is aware, a parent who conscientiously believes, that vaccination would be injurious to his child can obtain exemption by making a statutory declaration within four months of the birth of the child. I do not propose to introduce further legislation on the subject.

    Prosecution of Anti-Vaccinationists.
    MR. LUPTON: To ask the President of the Local Government Board whether he is aware that parents who were refused exemption from vaccination under the Vaccination Act, 1898, are now being fined for the non-vaccination of their children; whether he is aware that in some cases parents who have obtained exemption in respect of children born after the commencement of the Vaccination Act of 1907 may be liable to be prosecuted in respect of unexempted children born before that date; and whether he will consider the desirability of ending this state of affairs by introducing legislation with a view to exempting parents from all legal proceedings in respect of children born before the date of the commencement of the Vaccination Act of 1907.
    (Answered by Mr. John Burns.) I am aware that cases of the kind mentioned sometimes occur, but I am afraid I could not undertake to comply with the suggestion of my hon. friend.

    Stoke-on Trent Workhouse Stoneyard.
    MR. JOHN WARD: To ask the President of the Local Government Board whether he is aware that the Stoke-on-Trent Poor Law Guardians have recently declared their workhouse to be overcrowded, their stoneyard to be occupied to its full capacity by the unemployed, and that the guardians are now considering a proposal to turn the inmates of the casual ward out every morning without performing any labour test, so as to be able to use their cells for stone breaking by the unemployed; and whether, under these circumstances,, orders will be issued at once for the establishment of a distress committee under the Unemployed Workmen's Act, 1905, in accordance with the repeated request of the Stoke-on-Trent Town Council.

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    (Answered by Mr. John Burns.) I am aware that there is pressure on the guardians, and that they are taking steps to meet it. As regards the setting up of a distress committee, I am still awaiting a reply to the letter to the town council to which I referred in my Answer to the Question put to me by my hon. friend on the 9th instant. When I receive that reply I will give the matter immediate attention.

    Unemployed Processions in Paddington.
    MR. ROGERS: To ask the President of the Local Government Board whether he is aware that processions of the unemployed from the boroughs of Paddington and Kensington are daily taking place in the streets for the purpose of soliciting alms; whether the councils of these boroughs are making any provision for the relief of distress caused by unemployment; and whether he will communicate with these authorities in order to insure such steps being taken as will relieve these persons in distress from the necessity of seeking their subsistence by organised begging in the streets.
    (Answered by Mr. John Burns.) I am aware that processions of the kind referred to take place. The councils of both boroughs are engaged upon special measures to provide work for the unemployed. The Kensington Borough Council have passed various schemes of work, the total cost of which amounts to £7,300, and at Paddington the borough council have not only resolved on considerable expenditure on street works, but have also put in hand work at the recreation ground to which the Central (Unemployed) Body contribute. Moreover, works of tree planting are being carried out at Paddington, and some work in repairing and painting the town hall will be commenced to-day. Active steps are being taken in both boroughs to raise voluntary funds.

    Workhouse Infirmary Patients and Old-Age Pensions.
    MR. ROGERS: To ask the President of the Local Government Board whether an applicant who was received in to the workhouse infirmary since 1st January, 1908, and was treated there for some
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    months, but who has since repaid to the guardians the cost of his board and treatment at the rate fixed by them, will be disqualified for an old-age pension.
    (Answered by Mr. John Burns.) The repayment of the cost of the relief does not affect the question of disqualification; but it may be that the relief would be found to be such as under paragraphs (i.) or (iii.) of Section 3 (1) (a) of the Old-Age Pensions Act does not disqualify. No opinion on this point could be given without full knowledge of the circumstances of the case.

    Unemployment at Willenhall.
    MR. GEORGE THORNE: To ask the President of the Local Government Board whether he has been informed by the Urban District Council of Willenhall that after careful investigation they are satisfied that there are 200 men in their district willing to work who are unable to find employment; and whether, in view there of and particularly of the near approach of Christmas, he will now consent to the application of the council for the establishment of a distress committee, or if not, in what other way he proposes to assist the council in their attempts to alleviate the distress there, which is already severe and which it is feared may soon become more acute.
    (Answered by Mr. John Burns.) Information to the effect contained in the first part of the Question was supplied to me by the Urban District Council in October last. On 4th November I explained that I did not regard the information before me as sufficient to justify the establishment of a distress committee at that time. Since then no further particulars have been supplied to me by the Urban District Council.

    Coast Erosion.
    MR. G. GOOCH: To ask the President of the Local Government Board whether he can now definitely inform the House as to when the Reports of the Poor Law Commission and the Committee on Coast Erosion will be presented to Parliament.

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    (Answered by Mr. John Burns.) It is hoped that the Report of the Royal Commission on the Poor Law, so far as relates to England and Wales, will be presented early in the new year. Further Reports will be made subsequently as regards Scotland and Ireland. The Royal Commission on Coast Erosion contemplate presenting their Report on Afforestation in the coarse of next month; but it is not anticipated that their final Report, which will deal with the question of erosion, will be ready for some time.

    Out Relief Rules.
    MR. GEORGE ROBERTS: To ask the President of the Local Government Board whether he is aware that boards of guardians in different parts of the country are ceasing to pay outdoor relief to persons living with relatives whose income is £1 per week or over; and whether he will make representations with a view to preventing the infliction of this hardship in many deserving cases.
    (Answered by Mr. John Burns.) When application is made to the guardians for relief it is incumbent of them to take into consideration all the means possessed by or provided for the applicant from whatever source they may be derived. I have not received representations to show that the guardians are acting harshly in this matter, or that it is necessary that I should take any action with regard to it.

    Pensions Committee for the Peak District.
    MR. PARTINGTON: To ask the President of the Local Government Board whether he is aware that the old-age pensions subcommittee for the Peak area of Derbyshire is composed entirely of supporters of one political party; that the area covered is exceedingly large; and that no representatives of friendly societies or similar bodies have been included; and whether it is possible so to alter the constitution of this committee as to make it more representative of the inhabitants of the district.
    (Answered by Mr. John Burns.) I have received a letter containing allegations to the effect stated in the Question. The formation of sub-committees for the
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    purposes of the Old-Age Pensions Act and the appointment of persons to serve upon them rests with the local pension committee, and I am not empowered to alter the constitution of any subcommittee formed by them.

    Pensioners from the Colonies.
    MR. GULLAND: To ask the President of the Local Government Board whether a woman aged eighty, who has lived for seventy-two years in this country, is not eligible for an old-age pension, even though eight out of the last twenty years have been spent in Australia.
    (Answered by Mr. John Burns.) Yes, Sir. A claimant who during the last twenty years resided for eight years or more in Australia would be disqualified for an old-age pension.

    Mortomley Roman Catholic School.
    LORD EDMUND TALBOT: To ask the President of the Board of Education whether his attention has been called to the fact that a visit of the sub-committee of the local education authority of the West Riding was paid to the Roman Catholic school at Mortomley on 17th September last, and at that visit the chairman brought to notice the case of a child named Florence Norman, a Wesleyan, attending this Roman Catholic school, stating before all the children as a reflection on the head teacher that this child's position in the school was a proof of faulty classification by the teacher, and denying and ridiculing the teacher's statement in explanation that Florence Norman was a delicate child requiring careful and special treatment; whether he is aware that a medical certificate, dated 4th November last, states that this child has been medically attended and absented herself from school at various times during the past two years under medical directions, and that she died on 26th November from an illness affecting the brain, and that the teacher has been instructed by the local education authority to visit other schools with a view of gaining additional experience at her own expense; and whether, under these circumstances, he will call the attention of the local authority to the reflection cast upon the head teacher.

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    (Answered by Mr. Runciman.) This case is under consideration, and my right hon. friend is not in a position to make any statement at present. I may add, however, that some of the statements made in the Question are denied by the local education authority.

    Medical Inspection of School Children.
    MR. LUPTON: To ask the President of the Board of Education whether he is aware that some local education authorities are including vaccination amongst the matters to be noted on the schedule of inspection in connection with the medical inspection of children at public elementary schools; and whether he will therefore point out to the authorities that the Board's draft schedule of inspection does not contemplate any inquiry into the vaccinal condition of the children, and that, in the view of the Board, it is not desirable that any such inuiry should be made.
    (Answered by Mr. Runciman.) I am aware of the circumstances mentioned, and in all necessary cases where it appears that the local education authority are making inquiries on the point a communication is addressed to them in the spirit of the Answer given by my right hon. friend on 14th October last.

    Wheelwright Grammar School, Dewsbury.
    LORD R. CECIL: To ask the President of the Board of Education whether he is aware that the local education authority for the West Riding of Yorkshire, in the application of money under Part II. of the Education Act, 1902, has required in the case of the Wheelwright grammar schools, at Dews-bury, that a particular form of religious instruction shall not be given; and what steps he proposes to take to secure obedience to the law by the local education authority.
    (Answered by Mr. Runciman.) My right hon. friend is not without hope that a solution of the difficulty referred to in the noble Lord's Question may be arrived at which will make it unnecessary to consider what if any, further action would have to be taken by the Board.
    SIR HENRY CRAIK: To ask the President of the Board of Education whether in connection with the dispute between the local education authority of the West Riding of Yorkshire and the governors of the Wheelwright grammar schools, the Board of Education, in a letter to Messrs. Frederick Walker and Son, dated 10th August, 1908, stated that the governing body are disposed to apply to the Board for an Amendment of the scheme in accordance with the requirements of the authority; and, if so, upon what information this statement, which is repudiated by the governors and is entirely inconsistent with the terms of the agreement between them and the trustees of the Wheelwright Charity, was made.
    (Answered by Mr. Runciman.) The Answer to the first paragraph of the Question is in the affirmative. In the letter in question, the Board of Education went on to say that the governing body considered that to make such an application would be a breach of the informal agreement come to between the Wheelwright Charity Trustees and the Town Council of Dewsbury, with the assent of the Charity Commissioners, when the provisions of the scheme of 1900 were under consideration; and that to the terms of this agreement, although it has no legal force, the governors consider themselves bound in honour to adhere unless the Wheelwright Trustees should voluntarily release them from the obligation. The statement in the letter was made in the result of an interview on 25th July, 1908, between representatives of the governing body and officers of the Board, at which the governors asked for advice and assistance from the Board, and agreed to a suggestion made that the Board should take steps to approach the Wheelwright Trustees with a view to their considering the question of releasing the governors from the honourable understanding referred to in the letter.

    Post Office Discipline—Case of Mr. Dick.
    MR. JOYNSON-HICKS: To ask the Postmaster-General whether the Tweedmouth Committee ascertained that before the punishment

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    of an officer in the Post Office Department the precise nature of the charge brought against him was explained to him in writing, and that he was allowed to make, on his own behalf, a written explanation; whether the recommendation of the Committee that this practice should be strictly adhered to is still in force in his Department; if so, whether he will explain why the recommendation was not applied in the case of Mr. A. Dick, compulsorily transferred from Glasgow to Manchester, in 1907; whether he will now give him an opportunity to furnish a written explanation on the charges brought against him; and, if not, whether he will state his reasons for failing to carry out the recommendation of a committee whose findings were accepted by the then Postmaster-General.
    (Answered by Mr. Sydney Buxton.) The rule referred to by the Tweedmouth Committee is still in force. The circumstances leading to Mr. Dick's transfer from Glasgow were of a kind so completely within his own knowledge that the application of the rule became a mere formality, which could not have affected the result. It should, nevertheless, have been complied with. The omission has since been repaired; and Mr. Dick has defended himself verbally and in writing without convincing me that he was treated unjustly. Mr. Dick's conduct since his transfer has been satisfactory; and he was informed more than a year ago that I was prepared to sanction, under certain conditions, his re-transfer to Glasgow.

    Trawlers and Atlantic Cables.
    MR. BOLAND: To ask the Postmaster-General whether his attention has been called to the continued damage caused to the Atlantic cables off the coast of Ballinskelligs, county Kerry, by trawlers; and whether, in view of the representations made by the United States Government and the chambers of commerce in the United States and England on this subject, he will use his influence to have these trawlers excluded from the cable zone, within which thirteen cables are laid, to a distance of about fifteen miles from the shore.
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    (Answered by Mr. Sydney Buxton.) My attention has been drawn to recent further cases of damage to the Atlantic cables off the coast of Kerry which are attributed to trawlers. In consultation with the President of the Board of Trade I appointed a committee last summer which carefully investigated the whole question. The committee had before it a proposal made by certain of the cable companies that trawlers should be excluded from an area extending some seventy miles from the shore (not fifteen miles, as suggested in the hon. Member's Question), in which damage attributed by the companies to trawlers had occurred. The committee considered this proposal impracticable, a view in which His Majesty's Government concur. It reported, however, in favour of an alternative proposal made by certain cable companies for the inspection of trawling gear, and the practical steps to be taken to give effect to this recommendation are now under the consideration of the Departments concerned.

    Newburgh and North of Fife Rail way.
    MAJOR ANSTRUTHER-GRAY: To ask the Postmaster - General whether, in view of the opening of the Newburgh and North of Fife Railway in the near future, he will take all possible steps to improve the postal facilities of the districts concerned.
    (Answered by Mr. Sydney Buxton.) I will have inquiry made in the matter, and will acquaint the hon. Member with the result.

    Assistant Controller, London Postal Service.
    MR. JOHN WARD: To ask the Postmaster-General whether it is with his authority that Mr. J. W. Crawford, the assistant controller of the London postal service, uses the General Post Office, E.C., as the address for his private practice.
    (Answered by Mr. Sydney Buxton.) The question of the use of this address has not previously, so far as I am aware, been submitted for official consideration. It appears to me better that Mr. Crawford should use his private address, and he informs me that he will do so in future.

    Discharges of Telegraph Messengers.
    MR. C. B. HARMSWORTH: To ask the Postmaster-General what percentage of boys employed as telegraph messengers have been discharged from the service under the age limit during each of the last five years, respectively; and what percentage has been retained for permanent service in other branches of the Department.
    (Answered by Mr. Sydney Buxton.) I regret there are no Returns available for the period named by the hon. Member.

    Education of Telegraph Messengers.
    MR. C. B. HARMSWORTH: To ask the Postmaster-General what provision, if any, is made by his Department for the education of boy telegraph messengers with a view to fitting them for other occupations in the event of their being discharged from the telegraph service under the age limit or from other causes.
    (Answered by Mr. Sydney Buxton.) For many years educational classes under competent teachers have been placed within the reach of telegraph messengers at important towns. These classes were established in connection with the institutes, or clubs, maintained partly by a Treasury grant, partly by the contributions of the boys, and partly by the voluntary labour of the staff, to provide for the physical and mental culture and the reasonable amusement of the boys. There are ninety-nine such institutes at work. At some towns it has been found advantageous to the boys to hand over the purely educational work to the local authority. In such cases the boys are assisted as far as necessary in paying the usual fees. The subject is a large one; and if the hon. Member desires more detailed information I shall be happy to give it him.

    Glasgow Meat Market Letter Delivery.
    MR. WATT: To ask the Postmaster-General whether he is aware that letters in the Tollcross district of Glasgow, which is a district of one and a half to two miles further from the central post office than the wholesale meat market in Moore Street, are
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    delivered as early as seven o'clock in the morning; that the late delivery of letters to the meat market is entirely due to an arbitrary division line of postmen's districts having been drawn by his Department; and whether, in view of the fact that this important industry has been agitating for years for a 7.30 delivery, and is hampered in its trade by not receiving such, he will himself intervene so as to find out that this grievance cannot be due to any postman being new to the duty.
    (Answered by Mr. Sydney Buxton.) I will have further inquiry made and acquaint my hon. friend with the result.

    Christmas Labour at Bradford Post Office.
    MR. JOWETT: To ask the Postmaster-General if he is aware that extra men are being engaged for the Christmas traffic at the Bradford office at 5d. per hour, and if the sum named is lower than it has been the practice to pay at the Bradford office to extra men for similar work.
    (Answered by Mr. Sydney Buxton.) As I have stated in reply to other Questions in this House recently, the rates of pay for casual labour at Christmas will be based, as far as possible, on the rates recommended by the Select Committee for auxiliary service. Besides the fixed rate, the men receive special pay for night work, for Christmas Day, and Boxing Day, and get overtime pay where it has to be worked. The general net result of the alteration will be an increase in the total amount of pay. Under this scale the rate of pay at Bradford is 5¼d. an hour.

    Court of Criminal Appeal.
    MR. GODFREY BARING: To ask Mr. Attorney-General whether his attention has been called to the repeated expressions of opinion by the Lord Chief Justice and other Judges of the High Court that, in order to secure the full efficiency of the Court of Criminal Appeal, the Court should possess the power to order a new trial in certain eases; and whether he will consider the desirability of promoting legislation during the next session of Parliament to confer such power upon the Court of Criminal Appeal

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    (Answered by Sir William Robson.) The question as to whether or not the Court of Criminal Appeal should have power to order a new trial is, no doubt, one which gives rise to great differences of opinion among Judges. It was fully discussed in the debates preceding the passing of the Act, and I do not think it desirable to ask Parliament to reverse the decision at which it then arrived on such experience as the working of the Act has afforded up to the present time.

    Estate Duty Office Clerks.
    MR. CABLILE: To ask the Secretary to the Treasury whether, seeing that the present salaries of the Second Division clerks in the Estate Duty Office may be taken to represent, on the average, the true worth and ability of the men, and that those clerks who are selected for promotion will be the more competent and meritorious of them, he will state on what grounds it is proposed that from and after their promotion to work which has hitherto been performed largely by fully-qualified solicitors, these men should be remunerated by salaries lower in the aggregate for some twenty years than the ordinary scale of second division pay.
    (Answered by Mr. Hobhouse.) I have nothing to add to the replies which I gave to the hon. Member for St. Patrick's Division of Dublin and the hon. Member for Clapham on 13th July last, and on the 10th ultimo, to which I would refer the hon. Member.

    Church Estates Commissioners Winchester Estates.
    CAPTAIN BARING: To ask the hon. Member for the Crewe Division, as Church Estates Commissioner, whether he is aware that the road-making proposed for the benefit of the unemployed on the Commissioners' property in Winchester will cause the ejectment of eight allotment holders and serious disturbance of seventy-four others; whether he is aware that road-making could be carried out or other portions of the property which would cause no such disturbance,
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    and, if so, what action he proposes to take.
    (Answered by Mr. Tomkinson.) The Ecclesiastical Commissioners have not yet come to a decision as to the question of making roads at Winchester with a view to providing work for the unemployed, but if such a scheme is undertaken and would result in the disturbance of any allotment holders, that is a matter which has been foreseen and provided against. The allotment holders are in occupation of certain plots which they have been informed are amongst those most likely to be required at an early date for building purposes, but they have preferred to retain their tenancies of these plots until the necessity for disturbing them should actually arise, and on the understanding that in that event other land will be offered to them.
    CAPTAIN BARING: To ask the hon. Member for the Crewe Division, as Church Estates Commissioner, whether he is aware that owing to the terms imposed by the Ecclesiastical Commissioners on their building land, which almost entirely surrounds Winchester, namely, the granting of leaseholds instead of the sale of the freehold, no building development has taken place even after roads have been made; and whether he proposes to take any steps in the matter.
    (Answered by Mr. Tomkinson.) I am not aware that the course adopted by the Ecclesiastical Commissioners of granting leases for building as contrasted with selling the freehold has hindered building operations on their estates in Winchester; on the contrary, in the last few years no less than 22 acres of land have been let on leases for 999 years for building purposes; most of these lettings have been during the last two years, and I am informed that, although there is a considerable area of building land in the immediate vicinity of Winchester belonging to other owners, such building development as is taking place there is upon the Commissioners' property.

    British Museum Extension.
    MR. BUTCHER: To ask the First Commissioner

    2071
    of Works why the building operations for the extension of the British Museum in Montagu Place have, so far as the main structure is concerned, been suspended for nearly eighteen months; and when they are likely to be renewed.
    (Answered by Mr. Harcourt.) The first contract for the lower storeys was completed in the autumn of 1907. The interval which has occurred between the completion of the first contract and the commencement of the second contract for the superstructure is due to protracted negotiations between the architect and the engineer which were necessary to the preparation of detailed drawings and specifications. Tenders have now been received for the superstructure and are under consideration. As soon as I am able to accept a tender the work will proceed forthwith.

    Transfers of Excise Officers.
    MR. SNOWDEN: To ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer whether, during the present quarter, the removal of officers of Excise to other stations has been stopped by order of the Board of Inland Revenue; and whether in the new year the former practice of allowing officers to proceed to vacant stations for which they have applied or to exchange stations will be resumed.
    (Answered by Mr. Lloyd-George.) The Answers to both parts of the Question are in the affirmative.

    Payment of Pension Officers.
    MR. SNOWDEN: To ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer whether the special payment to pension officers for the preliminary Old-age Pensions work will be made according to the number of pension claims as in the cases of postmasters and clerks to pension committees, or whether the whole circumstances of the work in the particular district will be taken into account.
    (Answered by Mr. Lloyd-George.) The basis upon which the proposed gratuities are to be calculated has not yet been settled, but due regard will be had both to the quantity and quality of the work performed.

    Fines on Inland Revenue Officers.
    MR. SNOWDEN: To ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will state if it is the practice of the Board of Inland Revenue to make deductions by way of fines from the salaries of its officers for alleged breach of official Regulations; and, if so, will he say by what authority the Board are empowered to violate the spirit and letter of the Truck Act.
    (Answered by Mr. Lloyd-George.) Where circumstances warrant it, the Board of Inland Revenue punish breaches of Regulations by reducing the salaries of Inland Revenue officers; and I am advised that in such cases the Truck Acts do not apply.

    Amalgamation of the Customs and Excise Departments.
    MR. SNOWDEN: To ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer whether the arrangements for the amalgamation of the Excise and Customs Departments are yet completed, and when that amalgamation will come, into force; whether there will be any reduction of the numbers of the outdoor staff of either Department subsequent to the amalgamation; and can an opportunity be given, before the details of the amalgamation are finally settled, to the outdoor officers to make representations to him by deputation.
    (Answered by Mr. Lloyd-George.) No Order has yet been issued by His Majesty in Council transferring (in the manner indicated in Section 4 of the Finance Act, 1908) the management of Excise duties from the Commissioners of Inland Revenue to the Commissioners of Customs. The time for the final settlement of the details of amalgamation has not yet arrived, and I am not at present prepared to discuss them. I shall, however, be happy to consider any statement which the officers to whom the hon. Member refers may wish to lay before me, but I think the best course will be for such statement to be communicated to me in the first instance by letter.

    Bavarian Hops.
    MR. JOYNSON-HICKS: To ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer if he is

    2073
    aware that hops are grown in Bavaria by small holders, and that these growths are purchased by a merchant and dried together and sold in England under the name of the district, the name of the actual grower being lost in the course of drying; and whether it is his intention, by the Bill now before Parliament, to insist on every bale, however small, being marked with the name of the actual grower.
    (Answered by Mr. Lloyd-George.) I have been informed that hop culture in Germany is carried on mainly by small proprietors. The Bill now before Parliament provides that no hops shall be imported into the United Kingdom except in bags or pockets marked with the name of the owner, planter, or grower of the hops.

    Pension Anomalies.
    SIR FRANCIS CHANNING: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether, having regard to the anomalies that have arisen in the administration of the Old-age Pensions Act, he will appoint a small Departmental Committee to consider and report at the earliest moment what changes in the Act or Regulations, or both, will secure more reasonably the intentions of the Act, so that modified Regulations may be issued or an Amendment of the Act may be passed at the beginning of next session.
    (Answered by Mr. Lloyd-George.) Most of the criticisms as to the working of the Act which have been brought to my notice have reference to substantive statutory provisions, which have not been, and cannot be, affected by the issue of Regulations; and the more important of them involve considerations of policy and finance which I do not think could usefully be dealt with by a Departmental Committee. These points are receiving the careful consideration of the Government.

    Income-Tax Surveyors.
    SIR F. CAWLEY: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he is aware that whereas formerly the surveyor of income-tax, in settling the accounts under
    2074
    Schedule D, satisfied himself that the remunerations under Schedule E were properly accounted for, and was consequently the only official in possession of information regarding the latter, now such information must pass through the hands of the local assessor and staff, the clerk to the Commissioners and staff, the surveyors of taxes and staff, the Commissioners who sign the district Returns; whether he is aware that the information given under Schedule E, having to pass through so many hands, with the consequent fear of publicity, is extremely distasteful to many business firms and may lead to serious loss; and will he give an assurance that Returns under Schedule E cannot be lodged otherwise than through the local clerk, assessor, and surveyor, except in cases of a disputed assessment, the local Commissioner shall have no access to statements of profits or of emoluments of the taxpayer, and that even although the schedules of emoluments for the district have to be signed by the local Commissioner, such Commissioners cannot and do not see the contents of the volume to which they append their signatures.
    (Answered by Mr. Lloyd-George.) Assessors, the district Commissioners of taxes, the clerks to Commissioners, the surveyors of taxes and their staff, who are all sworn to secrecy under Schedule D of the Income Tax Acts, must of necessity have access to the Returns and assessments under Schedule E, and it would be quite impossible to give the assurance asked for by my hon. friend. Any fears, however, that may be entertained as to publicity being given to the information contained in the Returns and assessments are quite groundless, effectual care being taken to safeguard the privacy of all returns made by taxpayers under Schedules D and E.

    Laud Tax.
    MR. CLOUGH: To ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer what is the amount of nett income that he receives from the land tax; whether the land tax is imposed upon the whole of the land in the United Kingdom; what is the valuation of that land and when was the valuation made;

    2075
    what jurisdiction the Land Commissioners have with regard to this tax, and whether they can decrease or increase the rate of the land tax; in what year the land tax was first instituted; whether it then applied to the whole of the land in the United Kingdom; how the valuation was arrived at upon which it was imposed; what was the rate per cent. upon that valuation; and what year was the highest revenue ever received from this tax and what did it amount to.
    (Answered by Mr. Lloyd-George.) The net receipt of land tax for 1907–8 was £710,000. All land in Great Britain (there is no land tax in Ireland) is liable to land tax except where the tax has been redeemed and except in certain cases of land belonging to charities prior to 1693, and of property in the occupation of the Crown prior to 1798. The valuation varies from year to year, but as a rule the gross assessment under income-tax, Schedule A, is taken. The duty of the Land Tax Commissioners is to fix the assessment and to raise the tax due under the quota for each parish by an equal £ rate. By the Finance Act of 1896 the highest £ rate was fixed at 1s. and the lowest at Id. The land tax was instituted in 1692. In that year it applied to England and Wales only; in 1707 it was made applicable to Scotland, but there had been a land tax or "cess" in the latter country prior to the Act of Union, subject to the exemptions which I have mentioned above. The rate by 4 Will, and Mary, c. 1 (1692), was 4s. in the £ on real estate assessed on the bona fide rack rent, and on personal estate 24s. per £100, or 4s. in the £ on £6 (the then legal rate of interest). The personal property to be rated was ready money, debts due, goods, wares, merchandise, or other chattels, or any personal estate in the realm. Stock on land and household goods were exempted. The highest revenue received from the tax was in the years 1760–5, when it amounted to £2,037,854 in each year. I may also refer my hon. friend to the 1st, 13th, 28th, 29th, 40th, 41st, 42nd, 43rd, and 45th Reports of the Board of Inland Revenue.

    Cost of Tax Collections.
    MR. WALTER ROCH: To ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer if he can give the estimated cost
    2076
    per cent. of collecting the revenue derived from direct and indirect taxation, respectively.
    (Answered by Mr. Lloyd-George.) The same revenue officers sometimes collect both kinds of revenue, and the separate cost therefore cannot be given.

    Pension Officers and the "Civilian."
    MR. BARRIE: To ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he is aware that certain Excise officers acting as pension officers, on request from the editor of the Civilian, furnished him with the total number of claimants in their districts, and have been fined £10 each for so doing; and whether, seeing that the total number of claimants is known to all members of local committees, has in many cases been published in local newspapers, and is generally public property, he will reconsider his action in the matter.
    (Answered by Mr. Lloyd-George.) I must refer the hon. Member to the reply which I gave on the 3rd instant to the hon. Member for Blackburn.
    MR. SNOWDEN: To ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer whether the regulation under which the Board of Inland Revenue have fined certain pension officers £10 each for communicating to a service paper the number of claims received by them is a regulation common to the whole Civil Service; if so, does he propose to take any action to punish officials in other Departments for communicating similar information to the Press; whether he will issue a Treasury regulation rendering clerks to pension committees liable to a fine of £10 for giving information to the Press; and, if not, why is different treatment to be accorded to officials engaged in the same work.
    (Answered by Mr. Lloyd-George.) As regards unauthorised communications made to the public Press by Civil servants, I beg to refer the hon. Member to Treasury Minutes of 3rd June, 1873; 6th February, 1875; and 13th March, 1884, published in Command Paper 3951, of 1884. The clerks to pension committees are under the control of the committees, and not of the Treasury. I should add that the paper to which the hon. Member refers is a registered newspaper owned, controlled, and carried on privately, and has no official status.

    Territorial Cyclist Battalions.
    MR. CARLILE: To ask the Secretary of State for War what is the number of Territorial cyclist battalions recognised; where are their head-quarters located; how many members of each battalion

    Territorial Force, Cyclist Battalion.

    Recognised Units.

    Head-quarters.

    Strength on 1/10/08 (exclusive of Permanent Staff).

    Number who attended Camp (exclusive of Permanent Staff).

    Establishment.

    Officers

    N.C.O.'s and Men.

    Officers

    N.C.O.'s and Men.

    Officers.

    N.C.O.'s and Men.

    Highland Cyclist Battalion

    Birnam

    16

    277

    13

    231

    20

    502

    10th Battalion Royal Scots

    Linlithgow

    20

    414

    14

    371

    20

    502

    7th Battalion Welsh Regiment

    Cardiff

    9

    279

    9

    232

    20

    502

    Northern Cyclists Battalion:

    Northumberland Companies

    Newcastle

    5

    75

    —

    —

    —

    —

    Durham Companies

    Durham

    2

    178

    2

    152

    —

    —

    5th Battalion East Yorkshire Regiment

    Hull

    5

    425

    5*

    395†

    20

    502

    7th Battation Devonshire Regiment

    Exeter

    6

    238

    6

    200

    20

    502

    6th Battalion Norfolk Regiment

    Norwich

    8

    322

    8

    299

    20

    502

    Essex and Suffolk Cyclist Battalion

    Leyton

    10

    297

    8

    256

    20

    502

    Kent Cyclist Battalion

    Maidstone

    7

    201

    6

    179

    20

    502

    25th Battalion County of London

    Putney Bridge

    20

    375

    20

    323

    20

    502

    Totals

    108

    3,081

    91*

    2,638†

    200

    5,020

    *Two attached.

    † Five attached.

    were trained in camp this year; and what is the strength of each battalion at the present time.
    (Answered by Mr. Secretary Haldane.) The latest information available is as follows—

    Singapore Fortifications.
    MR. GOULDING: To ask the Secretary of State for War whether he is aware that the big guns in the fortification at Singapore have been dismantled; and if he can state when it is proposed to replace these guns by new ones.
    (Answered by Mr. Secretary Haldane.) The old pattern guns have been dismounted, but a certain number have been retained in their present works until new guns can be mounted. The new works for the new guns have been commenced.

    Territorial Officers' Outfit Allowance.
    CAPTAIN FABER: To ask the Secretary of State for War if he will state how many officers of the Territorial Force have since 1st April applied for the outfit allowance under paragraphs 404–5; and how many of those who have applied have received the grant.
    (Answered by Mr. Secretary Haldane.) 365 grants under paragraph 404 are reported to have been applied for, and 314 have been paid. Very few grants have been applied for under paragraph 405.

    Advances to Army Pensioners.
    MR. SNOWDEN: To ask the Secretary of State for War if, in view of the decision of the Local Government Board that advances made by boards of guardians to Army pensioners between quarterly pension days, such advances being deducted from the pension by the Army authorities, disqualify for an old-age pension, he will consider the desirability of paying Army pensions weekly.
    (Answered by Mr. Secretary Haldane.) As I have already stated, arrangements have been made by which any pensioner who so desires may have his pension paid to him weekly through any responsible person willing to undertake the duty. This arrangement should meet the disability referred to by the hon. Member. I may remind him that I have undertaken that the general question of weekly payments through the Post Office will be further considered when the arrangements
    2080
    for the payment of old-age pensions are in working order.

    Pimlico Clothing Factory Wages.
    MR. T. F. RICHARDS: To ask the Secretary of State for War whether he can state what difference, if any, is paid for cutting garments at the Pimlico Clothing Department when such are for stock, and also when they are special measure sizes; and whether, in the event of the cutters being paid day-work, what is the percentage of allowance, if any, allowed to the cutting of measures as compared with the cutting of stock sizes.
    (Answered by Mr. Secretary Haldane.) Cutting in the Royal Army Clothing Department Factory is carried out by time and not by piece-work. No question, therefore, of allowance arises.

    Territorial Subalterns' Certificates.
    MR. CARLILE: To ask the Secretary of State for War whether it is intended that a subaltern in the Territorial Force who has obtained as a Volunteer a captain's certificate at a school of instruction within ten years of the present time, and who has frequently in the interval had to drill, manœuvre, command, and administer a company, should be required to obtain a captain's certificate a second time at a school of instruction on promotion to the rank of captain.
    (Answered by Mr. Secretary Haldane.) A subaltern, unless he has qualified in the corresponding arm of the Regular Forces, Militia, Imperial Yeomanry, or Volunteers within three years of his appointment to the Territorial Force, will be required to qualify under the Territorial Force regulations for the rank of captain before promotion to that rank. Subject to the above proviso, he may count towards qualification for promotion to the rank of captain any course he may have undergone previously to his transfer.

    Precautions against Syphilis in the Army.
    MR. LUPTON: To ask the Secretary of State for War whether he has received a letter drawing his attention to a suggestion of Surgeon N. Howard

    2081
    Mummery, M.R.C.S., R.N., that in the near future men, on joining the service, will be vaccinated against syphilis at the same time and in the same way as they are now vaccinated against small pox, and asking for an assurance that no man on entering the Army shall incur the risk of compulsory blood-poisoning with syphilis passed through apes; whether he gave that assurance, or, if not, whether he can state why it was withheld; and whether he is willing to lay the whole correspondence relating to this subject upon the Table.
    (Answered by Mr. Secretary Haldane.) A letter to this effect was received by the War Office, and the writer was informed that no proposal of the nature indicated therein had been under consideration in the War Office. I have nothing to add to this reply, and I have no intention of laying correspondence of this character upon the Table of the House.

    Territorial Subalterns' Certificates.
    MR. COURTHOPE: To ask the Secretary of State for War whether it is necessary for a subaltern of the Territorial Force who has attended a month's course at a school of instruction or depot, and satisfied the commandant and adjutant, to also attend for examination at the head-quarters of the division, of which his corps is part, before receiving his certificate and qualifying to command a company.
    (Answered by Mr. Secretary Haldane.) It is necessary for a subaltern so situated to pass the examination for Certificate B before promotion to the rank of captain. This examination is held at times and places settled by General Officers Commanding-in-Chief of the various commands.

    Hop Industry.
    SIR W. J. COLLINS: To ask the hon. Member for South Somerset, as representing the President of the Board of Agriculture, what action the Board propose to take with a view to carry out the recommendations of the Select Committee on the Hop Industry with a view to securing better information as to produce, prices, acreage, condition of the industry, etc., in hop-growing countries
    2082
    abroad, and also with a view to giving to growers the latest and most scientific information available as to the cultivation, drying, and curing of hops grown in this country.
    (Answered by Sir Edward Strachey.) The Board recognise the importance of the subject, and have now under consideration proposals for obtaining through our consuls and by other means information of the kind indicated by the Select Committee. They propose publishing this information in their journal, and, where the matter is suitable, in their special series of leaflets.

    Eviction for Applying for a Small Holding.
    MR. MORRELL: TO ask the hon. Member for South Somerset, as representing the President of the Board of Agriculture, whether his attention has been called to the case of Mr. George Jones, a carrier, living at Drayton St. Leonards, near Oxford, who on 23rd November was threatened with eviction from his cottage, and the consequent loss of his living, on account of his having applied for land under the Small Holdings Act; whether he is aware that Mr. Allnutt, the farmer who used these threats, has already a separate farm of nearly 300 acres, in addition to the piece of land of 85 acres of which it is proposed to take a part for the purpose of the Small Holdings Act, and that, after the date of Mr. Jones' application, he made arrangements to have the cottage occupied by Mr. Jones let to him as part of his farm, presumably in order to exercise this pressure and thus prevent the working of the Act; whether he has yet made inquiries into the matter; and what steps he proposes to take.
    (Answered by Sir Edward Strachey.) The President has had inquiry made into this case, and he very greatly regrets to find that the facts are substantially as stated in the Question, and that in order further to intimidate this applicant for a small holding Mr. Allnutt, of Drayton, threatened to run a carrier's business to compete with the applicant's business. Steps are being taken with a view to provide this applicant with a holding without delay, and if land for the purpose

    2083
    cannot be obtained voluntarily the President will see that it is obtained compulsorily.

    Record of Owners of Land.
    MR. EVERETT: To ask the hon. Member for South Somerset, as representing the President of the Board of Agriculture, what is the number of owners of land in the United Kingdom.
    (Answered by Sir Edward Strachey.) I regret that I am unable to supply the information for which, my hon. friend asks, as there are no Returns showing the number of owners of land at the present time.

    Milford Pension Claimant.
    MR. FLYNN: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland, as representing the Local Government Board, whether the attention of the Board has been called to the hardship inflicted on John Jordan, labourer, Milford, County Cork, seventy-three years of age, by his claim to a pension being disallowed by the Kanturk sub-committee; that the reason alleged for disallowance was that he received 2s. 6d. medical relief for each of two weeks in July last; and, in view of the fact that this old man, who is now unable to work, was never in the workhouse and never received Poor Law help in any shape whatever, whether the Board will review the case if the 5s. received by him as medical relief is refunded to the guardians.
    (Answered by Mr. Birrell.) This case has not come before the Local Government Board, but neither the Board no the pension committee have power to set aside the provisions of the Old-Age Pensions Act, and the repayment of the relief mentioned will not remove the statutory disqualification.

    Earl of Ranfurly's Tyrone Estate.
    MR. KETTLE: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he can state, with regard to the estate of the Earl of Ranfurly in County Tyrone, sold under the Land Purchase Act of 1903, if the land has yet been vested in the purchasing tenants; if he is aware that
    2084
    prior to the sale the drains and streams on the estate were kept clean by the landlord, and that since the sale these drains and streams have been neglected, to the detriment of many of the purchasers; and does the Land Commission possess power to intervene for the protection of those injured by the present neglect.
    (Answered by Mr. Birrell.) Part of this property has been vested in the tenant purchasers, and part has not yet been vested. The cleansing of the watercourses would appear to be a matter for voluntary co-operation on the part of the tenant purchasers. The Land Commission have not, as far as I am aware, any power to intervene as suggested.

    Kildress Evicted Tenant.
    MR. KETTLE: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether an application for reinstatement has been received by the Estates Commissioners from William Lagan, an evicted tenant, who formerly had a holding near Kildress, County Tyrone, on the estate of Colonel Irvine, of Omagh; and what steps have been taken towards his reinstatement.
    (Answered by Mr. Birrell.) This application has not yet been inquired into, as it was not received by the Estates Commissioners within the time specified in the Evicted Tenants Act.

    Ballylongford Untenanted Lands.
    MR. FLAVIN: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether the untenanted lands situate near Ballylongford, North. Kerry, have been offered for sale to the Estates Commissioners by Mr. J. D. Crosbie; whether the lands have been inspected and reported upon; and when may the small holders and labourers of the district hope to have this untenanted land divided amongst them.
    (Answered by Mr. Birrell.) The formal proposal of the Estates Comissioners for the purchase of this estate has been accepted, and the case has been referred to an inspector to prepare a scheme for the distribution of the untenanted lands.

    Land Purchase in North Kerry.
    MR. FLAVIN: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he can state the number of holdings, acreage, valuation, rental, purchase money, and years purchase for all agreements lodged up to 31st October, 1908, under the Land Purchase Act, 1903, in the Parliamentary division of North Kerry.
    (Answered by Mr. Birrell.) The statistics of land purchase are not tabufated by Parliamentary divisions. I am therefore unable to give the information asked for in the Question.

    Uneconomic Holdings in Kerry.
    MR. FLAVIN: To ask he Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware of the number of labourers and uneconomic holdings on the Lindsey Talbot Crosbie estate in and around Ardfert and district; and whether these people's claims have been or will be considered before any scheme is sanctioned for the division of the untenanted lands bought by the Estates Commissioners from Mr. L. T. Crosbie.
    (Answered by Mr. Birrell.) The owner has not sold these lands to the Estates Commissioners, but is selling them himself to persons coming within Section 2 of the Irish Land Act, 1903.

    Newtownards Guardians and the Bible.
    MR. SLOAN: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that a committee appointed by the Newtownards Board of Guardians submitted a report on the 10th instant to the effect that no Protestant inmate will be allowed to receive from his or her friends a copy of the Bible, or from other outsiders, without the sanction of a chaplain being first obtained; and whether, in view of the character of such a recommendation, he will cause inquiries to be made with the view of having that part of the report deleted.
    (Answered by Mr. Birrell.) The report referred to recommended that no visitor should be allowed to give any literature directly to a patient, that non-religious literature intended for a patient should
    2086
    be delivered by the master of the workhouse, and that religious literature should only reach a patient through the chaplain in charge of him. The guardians are preparing draft rules as to visiting and the distribution of literature which will receive the attention of the Local Government Board when submitted.

    Hussey Estate, Rathkenny.
    MR. PATRICK WHITE: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland under what section of the Land Act of 1903 the Estates Commissioners advanced over £4,000 to Mr. Tiernan, to purchase land which he held on the eleven months system on the estate of the Trustees of Hussey, situate at Rathkenny, County Meath.
    (Answered by Mr. Birrell.) The Estates Commissioners inform me that Tiernan held 19 acres as a tenant on the Hussey estate. This holding with the additional land referred to were sold to him under Section (1) (a,) the first proviso of subsection (2) of the same section, and under Section 5 of the Irish Land Act, 1903.

    Ballycahill Evicted Tenant.
    MR. KENDAL O'BRIEN: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether the case of William Maher, an evicted tenant, of Ballycahill, near Thurles, County Tipperary, who has made an application for an equivalent farm, has been considered by the Estates Commissioners; and, if so, when is this tenant likely to be put into possession.
    (Answered by Mr. Birrell.) The Estates Commissioners have received the application referred to; but they are not in a position at present to say when the applicant will be put into possession of a holding.

    Crossakiel Evicted Tenant.
    MR. PATRICK WHITE: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether Luke Caffrey, Diamor, Crossakiel, has applied for a holding on the land of Thomastown, County Meath; and whether his application will be favourably considered.

    2087
    (Answered by Mr. Birrell.) The Estates Commissioners have received au application from Luke Caffrey for portion of the untenanted lands referred to. They will consider the application, with others of a like nature, when the lands are being dealt with.

    Thomastown Lands for Evicted Tenants.
    MR. PATRICK WHITE: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether, in the distribution of the lands of Thomastown, County Meath, the Estates Commissioners will have regard to the claims of Mrs. Anne M'Cabe and Mrs. Margaret Holden, who have lodged applications as evicted tenants.
    (Answered by Mr. Birrell.) These applications will be considered by the Estates Commissioners in connection with the allotment of the lands mentioned.

    Singleton Estate Evicted Tenant.
    MR. PATRICK WHITE: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland what steps the Estates Commissioners propose to take to supply Owen Kirk, an evicted tenant on the estate of Admiral Singleton, County Meath, with an equivalent farm to that from which he was evicted; and what objection there is to acquire compulsorily the farm from which he was evicted and reinstate him.
    (Answered by Mr. Birrell.) The Estates Commissioners hope to be able to supply Kirk with a holding at an early date. As regards the concluding portion of the Question, it would be contrary to the established practice to state the reasons which actuate the Commissioners in the exercise of discretion vested in them under Evicted Tenants Act.

    Irish Constabulary.
    CAPTAIN CRAIG: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he can state the intentions of the Irish Government with regard to constabulary legislation; whether members of the force have signified their disappointment with the terms of the Bill; and whether he will consider the desirability of appointing a committee of inquiry to
    2088
    investigate the claims of the rank and file, and to see how far the cost of the force may be curtailed in other directions in order to meet an increased expenditure.
    (Answered by Mr. Birrell.) The Government are proceeding with the Constabulary (Ireland) Bill. No doubt the members of the force would like to have had better terms, but I have no reason to suppose that the force in general are disappointed with the terms of the Bill. It is not intended to appoint a committee of inquiry.

    State Purchase of Irish Railways.
    MR. PATRICK O'BRIEN: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he has yet received from Mr. Gerald Balfour the estimates for the cost of purchase of Irish railways by the State, and the cost of guaranteeing dividends to the shareholders for the State working and control of the railways, which Mr. Gerald Balfour, when Chief Secretary for Ireland, obtained from Mr. Thomas Robertson, late chairman of the Board of Works, Ireland; and whether he will give the figures.
    (Answered by Mr. Birrell.) The answer is in the negative.

    Cashmir Outrage.
    MR. REES: To ask the Under-Secretary of State for India whether he can give the House any information regarding the case of the European nurse girl who was reported to have been outraged by the native driver and guard of the mail cart while travelling in to Cashmir.
    (Answered by Mr. Buchanan.) The Secretary of State has no official information on the subject.

    French Burmah Petrol Duties.
    MR. OWEN PHILIPPS: To ask the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether his attention has been drawn to the fact that petrol produced in Burmah in which British companies are concerned, both in the production

    2089
    and transport, has to pay a prohibitive duty when imported into France, whilst petrol produced in the United States, Roumania, and Russia is admitted to France at a much lower duty; and whether he will communicate with the French Government on the subject, with a view to secure to Burmah the most-favoured-nation treatment.
    (Answered by Secretary Sir Edward Grey.) Yes, Sir; and His Majesty's Government have already communicated with the French Government on the subject.
    (Answered by Mr. Buchanan.) The matter has already formed the subject of communications between His Majesty's Government and the French Government. It has been ascertained that the latter are unwilling to admit Indian petrol to the minimum tariff except on the condition that some concession is made in the Indian import tariff to French imports. The Indian Government have not seen their way to meet this suggestion, as imports from France into India already enjoy most-favourednation treatment.

    Singapore Convent Scheme.
    MR. SLOAN: To ask the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether the British Government has recently accepted plans for the building of a convent and schools in Singapore and have made a grant of £60,000 towards the cost of construction; and, if so, will he explain on whose representations and on what grounds such grant has been made.
    (Answered by Colonel Seely.) I have no information as to any such proposal, but I may say at once that it is to the last degree unlikely that a grant of £60,000 would be recommended by the Governor of the Colony, and it certainly would not be approved by the Secretary of State.

    Cause of Uganda Famine.
    MR. CORRIE GRANT: To ask the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether the recent famine in Uganda (as described in Cd. 4358) was largely due to the
    2090
    destruction of the native food crops by great herds of fierce wild pigs; whether the native hunters failed to keep them down; and whether, therefore, he will accept for this purpose the assistance (if it is offered) of English, Colonial, or American hunters.
    (Answered by Colonel Seely.) It seems probable that the famine was rather aggravated than caused by the wild pigs to which my hon. friend refers. The inability of the native hunters to cope with them was partly due to their enfeebled condition resulting from the famine, partly to the length of the grass at that season. The Governor reported 1 on 19th September that he was organising a crusade against these animals, and no doubt he will avail himself of the assistance of any competent persons who may offer their services.

    National Telephone Company's Staff.
    MR. STEADMAN: To ask the Postmaster-General if he can state how and to what extent, if at all, the seniority of the London sorting force is likely to be affected by the transfer of the staff of the National Telephone Company to the Post Office in 1912; and, what claim, if any, has the National Telephone staff on the Postmaster-General which has caused him to issue a warning to his present staff, already civil servants, that the latter's prospects are likely to be affected.
    (Answered by Mr. Sydney Buxton.) It is not yet possible to state how the various questions will be solved which are likely to arise in regard to the relative status and seniority of the staff now employed in the Post Office and that to be taken over from the National Telephone Company. The London sorting force, however, will be in no way affected. As it is certain that questions of difficulty will arise, I thought it right to issue a general warning to new entrants and officers newly promoted that their seniority might be affected. At the same time I stated definitely that every care would be taken to prevent hardship.

    Holy wood (Down) Postmen's Petition.
    MR. SLOAN: To ask the Postmaster-General if, about a year ago, he received

    2091
    a petition from the postmen in Holywood, County Down, Ireland, in regard to their position as to certain allowances or benefits which are allowed to postmen in special circumstances; and whether he has come to any, and, if so, what, decision in regard to the matter.
    (Answered by Mr. Sydney Buxton.) I have received a petition from the postmen at Holywood asking for a higher scale of pay. I hope to publish the classification of the sub-offices shortly.

    Achill Island Postal Arrangements.
    DR. AMBROSE: To ask the Postmaster-General whether he is aware that inconvenience is caused to the inhabitants of Achill Island owing to the non-delivery of letters on Sunday; and would he see that a Sunday delivery is established.
    (Answered by Mr. Sydney Buxton.) There is a serious loss to revenue on the existing postal service to Achill Island, and I should not be justified in sanctioning the additional expense of a Sunday delivery.

    Post Office Life Insurance.
    SIR WALTER FOSTER: To ask the Postmaster-General whether, in view of the fact that the Departmental Committee on Post Office Life Insurance had no expert evidence from actuaries, and none of the industrial assurance companies or collecting friendly societies gave any evidence, and the Parliamentary Labour Party, although invited to give evidence, did not do so, he will, before any action is taken or recommended, make inquiries as to the effect which the conversion of the Post Office into an industrial assurance society is likely to have upon the earnings of the 80,000 men whose livelihood at present depends upon the commission which they earn in that business; and whether he has made any inquiries as to the average amount of the existing industrial policies issued by industrial assurance companies and collecting friendly societies.
    (Answered by Mr. Sydney Buxton.) The Report of Lord Farrar's Committee is under consideration. I fully recognise
    2092
    the importance of the questions involved in the relationship between the Post Office and the industrial assurance companies. I may add that an Act of Parliament would be necessary to give effect to several of the Committee's recommendations.

    Gateshead Distress Schemes.
    MR. J. JOHNSON: To ask the President of the Local Government Board whether the Gateshead District Committee (statutory) has applied to the Local Government Board for a grant to carry out a scheme or schemes in order to cope with the present local unemployment and distress; if so, what was the nature of the reply; and is there at present any application under consideration by the Board.
    (Answered by Mr. John Burns.) The distress committee have applied to me for a grant to enable them to assist genuine cases of distress, but they have not submitted any scheme for providing work for the unemployed. I have stated that if they submit a scheme of useful work and furnish certain particulars for which I have asked I am ready to consider their application for a grant.

    River Pollution.
    MR. HARMOOD-BANNER: To ask the President of the Local Government Board whether it is possible to enforce Clause 8 of the Rivers Pollution Act, 1876, without further legislation, and increase the amount of work to meet the needs of unemployment.
    (Answered by Mr. John Burns.) I think the reply to the Question must be in the negative.

    Atlantic Cables Damaged by Trawlers.
    MR. BOLAND: To ask the Vice-President of the Department of Agriculture (Ireland) whether his attention has been called to the damage caused to the Atlantic cables by the fishing operations carried on by trawlers off the coast of Kerry, near Ballinskelligs; and whether he will consult with the Postmaster-General as to the best methods of protecting these cables.

    2093
    (Answered by Mr. Sydney Buxton.) I will answer this Question, and I would refer the hon. Member to the reply which I have given to the starred Question which he has addressed to me to-day on the subject.

    Saccharine.
    MR. OWEN PHILIPPS: To ask the Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department whether his attention has been drawn to the fact that saccharine is coming into more general use in the manufacture of many articles of food; and whether the Government proposes to take any action to safeguard the public against this drug being used in the preparation of articles of food.
    (Answered by Mr. John Burns.) Perhaps I may be allowed to answer this Question. My attention has been called to the use of saccharine in food products; but I am not at present in possession of evidence which would warrant Steps being taken with the object of prohibiting its use in all foods on grounds of public health. If, however, cases are brought to my notice in which the nutritive value or genuineness of particular foods has been materially impaired by the substitution of saccharine for sugar, I will consider the matter further.

    Cheap Trains Act.
    MR. BOWERMAN: To ask the President of the Board of Trade if it is intended next year to introduce legislation amending the Cheap Trains Act, 1885, in agreement with the promise given last year by his predecessor.
    (Answered by Mr. Churchill.) I am not at present in a position to make any statement as to the legislative proposals to be made next session.

    Promotion in the Customs.
    MR. MCARTHUR: To ask the Secretary to the Treasury whether the salary grievances caused by retardation of promotion in the past and the absence of reasonable prospects of promotion in the future, as represented by deputations of examining officers, second class, to the Board of
    2094
    Customs on 6th November, 1907, and to the Financial Secretary to the Treasury on 25th June, 1908, are to be redressed by the concession of a service scale of pay; if the present classification is to be continued, what provision is to be made for the advancement of those examining officers who have performed twenty-five years service, and are still waiting for the opportunity of qualifying for the grade of examining officer, first class; whether examinations for advancement to that grade are in future to be held annually in April, as prescribed by the regulations; and, in that event, will he state the number of vacancies estimated to occur in the first class in the years 1909, 1910, 1911, and 1912, respectively.
    (Answered by Mr. Hobhouse.) As I explained to the hon. Member, in answer to his Question of 13th May last, I intend to deal with these matters at the same time that the arrangements required by the transfer of the Excise staff to the Customs service come under review. I hope to be able to give my attention closely to this subject in the early part of next session, but meanwhile, I regret that I am unable to make any announcement.

    Agricultural Expenditure.
    MR. BARNARD: To ask the Secretary to the Treasury if he will state the net annual expenditure for the last six known financial years of the English and Irish Agricultural Departments, respectively.
    (Answered by Mr. Hobhouse.) I would refer my hon. friend, as regards voted expenditure, to the Appropriation Accounts annually presented to this House, and as regards the Endowment Fund of the Department of Agriculture (Ireland), to the Annual General Report of the Department.

    Fair Wages Government Contract Inquiry.
    MR. BOWERMAN: To ask the Secretary to the Treasury if he can state when Members will have an opportunity of seeing the Report prepared by the Inter-Departmental Committee recently inquiring into the manner in which the Fair Wages Resolution of the House of

    2095
    Commons of February, 1891, has been observed by the various contractors for Government work.
    (Answered by Mr. Hobhouse.) I hope in a very few days.

    Deferred Pay.
    MR. RUPERT GUINNESS: To ask the Secretary to the Treasury what steps the Government propose to take in accordance with the undertaking given by the Treasury in February, 1908, to propose legislation to amend the law as to superannuation in the Civil Service upon the lines recommended by the Courtney Commission.
    (Answered, by Mr. Hobhouse.) I would refer the hon. Member to the reply given by the Prime Minister to a similar Question on the 6th ultimo, in which he stated that he hoped that the Bill might be introduced next session.

    Ordinary Public Elementary Schools maintained by Local Education Authorities. Year ended 31st July, 1908.

    Accommodation.

    Average number of scholars on registers.

    Average attendance.

    Council

    3,766,824

    3,318,294

    2,939,100

    Church of England

    2,624,789

    2,099,094

    1,857,257

    Roman Catholic

    401,595

    332,034

    285,949

    Wesleyan

    105,664

    91,400

    79,754

    Jewish

    10,755

    10,468

    9,761

    Others (including British)

    161,391

    125,857

    110,258

    Total

    7,071,018

    5,977,147

    5,282,079

    School Fees.
    MR. ARMITAGE: To ask the President of the Board of Education whether he will state the average number of children paying fees in public elementary schools during the year ending 31st July, 1908.
    (Answered by Mr. Runciman.) The number of fee-paying scholars on the

    School Teachers.
    MR. ARMITAGE: To ask the President of the Board of Education whether he will say what proportion of teachers employed in I public elementary schools during the year ending 31st July, 1908, were trained and certificated, respectively.
    (Answered by Mr. Runciman.) 31·28 per cent. were trained certificated teachers and 58·45 per cent. were certificated.

    School Attendance.
    MR. ARMITAGE: To ask the President of the Board of Education if he will state the number of places provided in council schools on 31st July, 1908, the number of children on the register at the same date, and the number in average attendance; and if he will give the like information with regard to Anglican, Roman Catholic, Wesleyan, Jewish, British, and other schools.
    (Answered by Mr. Runciman.)—
    registers on the last day of school years in the statistical year ended 31st July, 1908, was 163,841.

    Customs and Excise Amalgamation.
    MR. KETTLE: To ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer whether the failure of the attempt made in 1882 to bring about a closer union between the Customs

    2097
    and the Excise was due to the continued opposition of the higher officials in the former Department; whether the higher officials in the Customs receive larger salaries and have less arduous duties than the corresponding officials in the Excise; and whether he will afford an opportunity to those examining officers of Customs who believe that an Excise classification would remove most of their grievances, without any increase in the Revenue Estimates, to place before him such facts as might tend to facilitate the amalgamation of the two Departments.
    (Answered by Mr. Lloyd-George.) I have no information before me which bears out the suggestions made in the first and second paragraphs of the Question. But I should welcome any plan which will facilitate the economical amalgamation of the Departments of Customs and Excise, and if the officers referred to by the hon. Member will place their views before me in writing I shall be happy to consider them.

    Pension Statistics.
    MR. STAVELEY-HILL: To ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he can state the number and percentage of applications received in Ireland for old-age pensions from persons occupying land, distinguishing between the cases of the occupying tenants and occupying owners.
    SIR CLEMENT HILL: To ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer how many persons owning or occupying holdings of two acres or more have applied for and qualified for old-age pensions.
    (Answered by Mr. Lloyd-George.) I may perhaps be allowed to take these two Questions together. I am not in possession of the information for which the hon. Members ask; and, in view of the pressure of the old-age pensions work, I do not feel justified in requiring the pension officers to obtain it at the present time.

    Pensions and Poor Law Relief.
    MR. L. HASLAM: To ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer whether, under the Old-Age
    2098
    Pensions Act, a person having received Poor Law relief during 1908, and precluded thereby from the benefits of the Act during the following year, will be precluded from its benefits during the year 1910, if he has not received Poor Law relief during 1909.
    (Answered by Mr. Lloyd-George.) Under the law as it stands at present such a person would be disqualified until 31st December, 1910. After that date he would be eligible for a pension.

    Income-Tax on Colonial Investments.
    MR. HARMOOD-BANNER: To ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer if his attention has been called to the many companies registered in this country as limited the whole of whose business and transactions are conducted in the Colonies thus entailing upon Colonial shareholders the payment of double income-tax, first, upon the profits made in the Colonies to the Colonial authorities, and, second, upon the dividends paid in Great Britain to the authorities here; and whether, in view of the hindrance to the investment of Colonial capital in British limited companies in consequence, he will consider if any measures can be taken to remove the difficulty of double payment of income-tax.
    (Answered by Mr. Lloyd-George.) As regards the general point raised by the Question, I may perhaps be allowed to refer the hon. Member to my Answer of 2nd November last to a Question by the hon. Member for Donegal, East. I should, however, be happy to investigate any particular case the hon. Member may have in mind.

    Income-Tax Surveyors and Private Balance Sheets.
    MR. HARMOOD-BANNER: To ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will state under what powers the surveyors of taxes and Income-Tax Commissioners are authorised to insist on retaining balance sheets and accounts in addition to requiring the production, as explained in the reply of 28th February, 1907.
    (Answered by Mr. Lloyd-George.) In the event of an appeal to the District

    2099
    Commissioners of Taxes, all statements of accounts, balance sheets, etc., delivered in answer to their precept in the course of the prosecution of such appeal become, with the returns and other papers relating to income-tax, the property of the Commissioners.

    Female Income-Tax Payers.
    MR. COOPER: To ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer whether, in the Return of persons paying inhabited house duty or property and income-tax, any distinction is made between men and women; and, if so, will he give the number of women paying these taxes and the amount of money paid by them.

    Received.

    Investigated and recommended for pension by pension officers.

    Investigated and not recommended for pension.

    Considered ineligible and not investigated (paragraph 55, Instructions).

    In hand, partially investigated.

    In hand, investigation not commenced.

    England, excluding Monmouthshire

    383,611

    290,085

    23,531

    5,360

    45,422

    19,213

    Wales and Monmouthshire

    25,665

    19,329

    1,860

    642

    2,824

    1,010

    Scotland

    71,616

    53,305

    3,592

    669

    9,984

    4,066

    Ireland

    209,135

    127,309

    13,175

    2,524

    47,373

    18,754

    Total

    690,027

    490,028

    42,158

    9,195

    105,603

    43,043

    I have no statistics as to the work accomplished by the committees, and I am, therefore, unable to state the numbers allowed and refused, respectively, by them.

    Civil Employment for Ex-Soldiers and Sailors.
    MR. CLAVELL SALTER: To ask the Secretary of State for War what steps have been taken to carry out the recommendations on pages 29 and 30 of the Report of the
    (Answered by Mr. Lloyd-George.) No such distinction as that referred to in the Question is made.
    MR. TIMOTHY DAVIES: To ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will state the number of claims under the Old-Age Pensions Act received up to date; and whether he will give the number investigated, the number allowed, the percentage refused of those investigated, and the number still to be inquired into.
    (Answered by Mr. Lloyd-George.) The following table shows the progress made by pension officers up to the 5th instant, the latest date to which figures are available—
    Committee on Civil Employment of ex-Soldiers and Sailors.
    (Answered by Mr. Secretary Haldane.)
    Creation of an Association for the Employment of ex-Soldiers and Sailors.
    Since this suggestion was made, the circumstances have been altered by the fact that the Territorial and Reserve Forces Act imposes upon the County Associations the duty of undertaking "the care of reserve and discharged

    2101
    soldiers." The steps necessary for carrying out this work are at present the subject of careful consideration.

    Employment in Government Departments.
    A circular letter has been addressed to the various Government Departments enclosing a list of appointments for which the Committee thought that ex-soldiers might be eligible. There has been, in consequence, an increase in the number of applications from these Departments for the employment of ex-soldiers as pensioner messengers.
    Reckoning of Army Service for Civil Superannuation.
    This Question has been carefully considered, but it has not been found possible to accede to these recommendations.
    Consideration to be given to Army Service on discharges on Reduction of Establishment.
    This was fully considered, but, having regard to all the circumstances of the case, it was not deemed advisable to make a change in the direction contemplated.
    Employment by County and Borough Councils.
    The duty of approaching these councils with a view of their employment of ex-soldiers where possible will now devolve upon the County Associations. Many councils have met the wishes of the War Department in this matter.
    Technical Instruction of Soldiers.
    The steps taken to give effect to these recommendations are detailed in Command Papers, 3511, of 1907, and 4059, of 1908.
    Emigration.
    Regard is had to the necessity of fitting men for emigration in the courses of technical instruction devised by the various local committees.

    Lectures.
    Several lectures have been given with a view to interesting soldiers in the question of their future employment, and arrangements are being made for
    2102
    further lectures to be given during the next few months.

    The form of character has been altered in the direction contemplated by the Committee.
    Thrift.
    A trial was given to the scheme suggested by the Committee for inducing soldiers to make use of the savings banks, but it was found that they preferred to deposit the money themselves.
    Friendly Societies.
    One of the friendly societies has recently, at the instance of the War Office, made arrangements which should especially meet the needs of soldiers who elect to join as members.
    Payment of Pensions.
    Although it has not been found possible to adopt the recommendations of the Committee in their entirety, or those of the further Committee which was subsequently appointed to deal with this subject, steps have been taken to meet those cases in which a more frequent payment is found to be desirable.

    Royal Engineer Volunteers.
    SIR GEORGE MCCRAE: To ask the Secretary of State for War whether units of Royal Engineers (Volunteers) allotted to coast defences formerly received an annual allowance of practice small-arm ammunition, at the rate of ten rounds of ball cartridge, ten rounds blank cartridge, and twenty-five rounds aiming tube, per man; whether these allowances have been withdrawn from Territorial units of Royal Engineers allotted to coast defences, so that men belonging to these units who wish to practice shooting must now pay for all the ammunition they use; and whether these units are not supposed to be capable of defending themselves, or, if they are, when it is proposed that they should receive instruction in musketry, seeing that they would be the first troops mobilised in the event of threatened invasion and would be stationed at places where no facilities for practice exist.
    (Answered by Mr. Secretary Haldane.) The only Territorial Royal Engineers who are allowed ammunition are the field companies, which have an allowance of ninety rounds per man annually. As regards the other Royal Engineer units, it was considered that as the period of training was so short that their time was fully occupied with technical instruction, it was necessary to suspend the musketry, which was of secondary importance.

    Housing and Town Planning Bills.
    MR. BRODIE: To ask the Prime Minister whether, in view of the disappointment caused to housing reformers by the loss of the Housing and Town Planning Bill introduced during the present session by the President of the Local Government Board, he will give some assurance that a housing Bill or Bills will be included in the King's Speech next session; and whether the Government will consider the advisability of separating the housing from the town-planning portions of the Bill so as to form two separate Bills, and of drafting them in such a way that references to previous legislation can be avoided.
    (Answered by Mr. Asquith.) I have already stated that the Government intend to introduce the Housing and Town Planning Bill, as amended, next session. I cannot give any undertaking that this measure shall be so divided as to form two separate Bills, and I am afraid that it would be impossible that the Bill should be redrafted in such a way as to avoid all reference to previous legislation.

    Government Departmental Arrangements.
    SIR CHARLES DILKE: To ask the Prime Minister whether the recent inquiry as to the functions and status of two Departments was extended, in pursuance of a promise, so as to embrace the allocation of business among several Departments with the view to more scientific distribution of duties; and whether he is now in a position to make any statement as to the scope of the inquiry and as to the time at which it is
    2104
    likely to be concluded, and the results announced.
    (Answered by Mr. Asquith.) Yes, Sir, the inquiry has taken into account the problem of the allocation of business between the various Departments. I am at present unable to add anything to the information already given as to the scope of the inquiry or to say when it will be concluded.

    Department of Woods and Forests.
    MR. BOWLES: To ask the hon. Member for South Somerset, as representing the President of the Board of Agriculture, whether, in view of the transfer of the Department of Woods and Forests to the Board of Agriculture, he will consider the advisability of replacing the private firm of land agents and surveyors to the Commissioners by public officials directly responsible to the President of the Board of Agriculture.
    (Answered by Mr. Hobhouse.) The Department of Woods and Forests has not been transferred to the Board of Agriculture. The President of that Board is, by the Crown Lands Act, 1906, an ex officio Commissioner of Woods, and as such has been given the management of the principal agricultural estates of the Crown in England. More than one firm of land agents and surveyors are employed by the Commissioners of Woods, who do not consider that there would be any advantage, financial or otherwise, in adopting the suggestion made. I would also refer the hon. Member to the remarks of the Select Committee of 1890 (Parliamentary Paper, No. 333, of 1890, p. 7), in favour of the existing practice.
    MR. BOWLES: To ask the hon. Member for South Somerset, as representing the President of the Board of Agriculture, whether he will state, for each of the financial years 1905–6, 1906–7, and 1907–8, the total amount received, by way of fees and other remuneration of all kinds arising from their connection with the office of the Commission, by Messrs. Clutton, the land agents and surveyors to the Commissioners of Woods and Forests.
    (Answered by Mr. Hobhouse.) I am informed that the total amounts paid to

    2105
    Messrs. Clutton for collection of rents and for their other services, including travelling and other expenses, are:—

    £

    s.

    d.

    For year 1905–6

    4,759

    18

    9

    For year 1906–7

    4,436

    11

    7

    For year 1907–8

    3,148

    7

    0

    Small Holdings in Surrey.
    MR. BRODIE: To ask the hon. Member for South Somerset, as representing the President of the Board of Agriculture, whether, in view of the disappointment experienced by the applicants for small holdings in the parishes of Godstone and Tatsfield, in Surrey, anything can be done by the Board to assist the county council to obtain land; and whether the Board will obtain a report on the position with a view to rendering such assistance.
    (Answered by Sir Edward Strachey.) The Board have already been in communication with the county council as to the Tatsfield applicants. Three local inquiries have been held there, and the county council are endeavouring to obtain land for the suitable applicants. We have not received any representations from the Godstone applicants, but inquiry will be made.
    MR. BRODIE: To ask the hon. Member for South Somerset, as representing the President of the Board of Agriculture, whether the Board have any further information as to the case of Mr. Payne, of Oxted, Surrey, whose application for a small holding of five acres was approved some three months age, and who was visited by an agent of the Surrey County Council about a month ago, but who has not yet received any definite information as to when he is likely to get land; and whether the Board, if they have no information, will obtain a report from the Surrey County Council.
    (Answered by Sir Edward Strachey.) The Board are informed that the county council are endeavouring to obtain land for Mr. Payne, but as he requires it within half a mile of New Oxted, where the price of land is from £200 to £300 an acre, the county council are precluded from purchasing, and they have not yet been able to obtain any land on lease.

  QUESTIONS IN THE HOUSE.

    Stokers in the Navy.
    MR. HAVELOCK WILSON: I beg to ask the First Lord of the Admiralty if he can state the number of men employed as stokers and trimmers in the Royal Navy in 1907; and how many cases of suicide, if any, occurred amongst those ratings in the same year.
    THE FIRST LORD OF THE ADMIRALTY (Mr. MCKENNA,): The average number of stokers serving in the Royal Navy during 1907 was 30,228. There were three undoubted cases of suicide during the same period, and three others in which there was more or less suspicion of suicide, but the evidence was insufficient to enable a definite decision to be given.

    Battleship Armament.
    MR. LONSDALE: I beg to ask the First Lord of the Admiralty whether he is able to state the number and description of the big guns to be carried by the new German battleship "Posen;" the total weight of metal discharged in one round from all her guns; the weight of metal capable of being discharged in one broadside; the number and description of guns which can be fired straight ahead; and whether he can give the corresponding details with respect to H.M.S. "St. Vincent."
    MR. McKENNA: I am unable to give the information desired with regard to the armament of the "Posen," so that no comparative statement with regard to the armament of this ship and the "St. Vincent" can be prepared.
    MR. LONSDALE: Does not the right hon. Gentleman think it desirable to take steps to make himself acquainted with these facts?
    MR. MCKENNA: If the hon. Gentleman can help me to discover the armament of the "Posen" I shall be extremely glad.
    MR. LONSDALE: It is not my job.

    Naval Pensions.
    MR. SNOWDEN: I beg to ask the First Lord of the Admiralty if, in view of the decision of the Local Government Board that weekly advances made by boards of guardians to Navy pensioners between quarterly pension days, such advances being deducted from the pension by the Army authorities, disqualify for an old-age pension, he will consider the desirability of paying Navy pensions weekly.
    MR. McKENNA: On the general question of the payment of pensions weekly instead of quarterly, I have nothing to add to the Answers I gave in this House on 14th and 15th October. I would remind the hon. Member that all the information in the possession of the Admiralty points to the fact that naval pensioners as a body are fully cognisant of the advantage they derive from receiving their pensions quarterly in advance, and would resent the substitution of a general system of weekly payments. The very small percentage of men who are forced to have recourse to the Poor Law authorities for reasons other than infirmity or lunacy does not justify any change of system. In cases, however, in which it can be shown that it would be an advantage to the man to receive his pension at shorter intervals the Admiralty are prepared to make monthly payments to him, or, subject to his consent, to pay the full quarterly sum to any responsible person for the purpose of issue by weekly instalments.

    Tyneside Docks.
    MR. RENWICK: I beg to ask the First Lord of the Admiralty whether, in view of the fact that no dry dock suitable for large battleships and cruisers will be ready at Rosyth until about six years hence, he will now consider the advisability of entrusting the owners of suitable dry docks on the Tyne with a portion of the docking and repairs to large war vessels.
    MR. McKENNA: The existing facilities at His Majesty's dockyards are considered to be sufficient to cope with the repairs and dockings of the large war vessels in His Majesty's Navy,
    2108
    and it is not proposed to make any arrangements for doing such work at private yards.
    MR. RENWICK: Does not the right hon. Gentleman consider it necessary to have such docks available in time-of war?
    MR. MCKENNA: I could not discuss that subject by Question and Answer across the floor of the House.

    Naval Gunnery.
    MR. STAVELEY-HILL: I beg to ask the First Lord of the Admiralty which of the eight battleships of the "Royal Sovereign" class have carried out quarterly practice from their 13·5-inch guns this year.
    MR. MCKENNA: With the exception, of H.M.S. "Revenge," which carries out special duties, the ships of the "Royal Sovereign" class, which are on the Special Service list, do not carry out quarterly practices.

    Naval Ammunition Reserve.
    MR. STAVELEY-HILL: I beg to ask the First Lord of the Admiralty if the reserve for 13·5 ammunition for each of the eight "Royal Sovereign" class of the Home Fleet enumerated as first-class battleships is maintained at the same level per gun as that adopted for the 12-inch guns of the more modern battleships in the Nore Division of the Home Fleet, after deducting an amount to allow for the full quantity of ammunition for a fully-commissioned battleship being on board each ship.
    MR. McKENNA: It is undesirable, in the interests of the public service, to make any statement as to the scale of reserves of ammunition which is maintained.

    Admiralty Granite Contracts.
    MR. CARLILE: I beg to ask the First Lord of the Admiralty whether, in view of the quantities of granite imported into this country from foreign countries where the fair wages clause is not in operation, and of the present state of

    2109
    unemployment obtaining in this country, he will take steps to ensure that in all future contracts for dock and harbour works British granite only shall be used.
    MR. McKENNA: No, Sir.
    MR. CARLILE: Will the right hon. Gentleman give the matter further consideration?
    MR. McKENNA: I have given the matter the fullest consideration, and I regret I cannot alter my Answer.

    Naval Reserve.
    MR. C. E. PRICE: I beg to ask the First Lord of the Admiralty whether the men of the Naval Reserve who formerly used to drill at the various stations round the East Coast of Scotland are to be transferred to the South of England, or whether there is any intention of so doing; and whether he will consider the possibility of sending a vessel round the country for three or four months of the season to enable men to take their drill.
    MR. McKENNA: Under the new system of training, Royal Naval Reserve men are trained in ships of the division of the Home Fleet to which their district is affiliated. In the case of the East Coast of Scotland men, the division is Portsmouth. When Home Fleet ships are cruising in the North, arrangements have been made for north countrymen to be embarked direct in these ships for training; but it is not practicable to carry out the suggestion made in the latter part of the hon. Member's Question.

    H.M.S. "Amethyst.
    MR. BRAMSDON: I beg to ask the First Lord of the Admiralty whether he is aware that on Tuesday, the 8th instant, a gun-fitting was thrown overboard from H.M.S. "Amethyst," whilst that ship was in Fountain Lake, Portsmouth Harbour, and recovered on the following morning; whether, in consequence of its not being known who had thrown the fitting overboard, the leave for the whole of the men was stopped, and those on leave were recalled; whether the "Amethyst" is
    2110
    under orders to leave early in the new year and one-half of the crew were con sequently on leave; whether there has been any discontent on board; and what orders have the Admiralty given, or what do they propose to do in the matter, so as to insure that innocent persons shall not further suffer.
    MR. McKENNA: I have received a telegram from the commander-in-chief at Portsmouth on the subject of my hon. friend's Question, and as its terms give a full reply, I propose to read it: "Gun-fitting was missed morning of 9th instant and recovered by diver same day, and inquiry shows fitting was thrown overboard previous evening. One watch was on long leave, and no men were recalled. Leave of other watch was suspended until 14th instant, whilst investigations were proceeding. By 14th, sufficient evidence was obtained to throw strong suspicion on two men, who are now under arrest, and ordinary short leave was resumed. Am satisfied there is no general discontent on board, and that this act of insubordination was the work of two or three men only."

    Effective War Ships.
    MR. BELLAIRS: I beg to ask the First Lord of the Admiralty with reference to the list of over 150 ships which were alleged to have been scrapped by a decision of the Admiralty in October, 1904, and the 155 names given in a Return issued to Parliament entitled Vessels struck off the List of Effective Ships of War, whether he will state how many of the 155 vessels were not on the list of effective ships of war at the time the previous Board of Admiralty, of which Lord Walter Kerr was First Sea Lord, came to an end; how many of the 155 vessels still appear in the Navy List now that over four years have elapsed; how many still appear in the current Return of Fleets (Great Britain and Foreign Countries); and how many are in commission in one capacity or another.
    MR. McKENNA: The list to which my hon. friend refers is presumably that contained in Return No. 74 of 1905, which classifies the vessels in question under several headings, and implies that

    2111
    a large proportion of them were not intended to be "scrapped." Of the vessels contained in this list, there are now in sea-going commission, one third-class cruiser (the "Philomel"), three surveying vessels and six sloops and gunboats, of which five are for river Service on the China station. The vessels contained both in this list and in the current "Return of Fleets," are nine second-class cruisers, two third-class Cruisers, and one torpedo gunboat. The Navy List contains all vessels, effective and non-effective, which have not yet been sold, and I presume my hon. friend does not want a comparison which would throw no light on the question whether the classification of any vessel has been altered since 1905. As regards the question what ships were placed on the non-effective list before October, 1904, I would refer my hon. friend to a printed Answer given him in reply to his Question of 23rd October, 1906, which gives a nominal list for vessels of more than 4,000 tons. I do not think that the utility of giving also the names of vessels under 4,000 tons, is commensurate with the labour involved in obtaining it.

    Vaccination in the Navy.
    MR. LUPTON: I beg to ask the First Lord of the Admiralty whether he has received a letter drawing his attention to a suggestion of Surgeon N. Howard Mummery, M.R.C.S., of the Royal Navy, that in the near future men on joining the service will be vaccinated against syphilis, at the same time and in the same way as they are now vaccinated against small pox, and asking for an assurance that no man on entering the Navy shall incur the risk of compulsory blood-poisoning with syphilis passed through apes; whether he gave that assurance, or, if not, whether he can state why it was withheld; and whether he is willing to lay the whole correspondence relating to this subject upon the Table.
    MR. McKENNA: I have received such a letter as is referred to by my hon. friend, and I replied to the effect that there were no circumstances which justified such an inquiry being addressed to me.
    MR. LUPTON: Does not the suggestion meet the right hon. Gentleman's, approval?
    MR. McKENNA: There is no ground for supposing it does.

    Foreign Navy Estimates.
    MR. BELLAIRS: I beg to ask the First Lord of the Admiralty what is the total sum provided in the latest published Navy Estimates of Great Britain, Germany, and the United States for the material up-keep of their fleets, so as to include the sum total of the money to be expended on shipbuilding, repairs, and armaments, and stating in each case the years for which the figures are given.
    MR. McKENNA: The total sum provided for material upkeep of fleets by Germany, the United States, and the United Kingdom, are—

    Amount.

    Year.

    £

    Germany

    11,942,009

    1909–10

    United States

    9,358,108

    1908–9

    United Kingdom

    11,221,534

    1908–9

    H.M.S. "Philomel."
    MR. BELLAIRS: I beg to ask the First Lord of the Admiralty whether he is aware that during 1903–4 and 1904–5 H.M.S. "Philomel" had £23,825 spent on her repairs, and that in October, 1904, she was included in the list of 155 ships purporting to have been struck off the list of effective ships of war; whether he can state the number of miles steamed by this ship with her own engines after the completion of her thorough repairs in 1904 before she was towed back in 1906 to Haulbowline to be again refitted for her commission as a cruiser attached, to the battle squadron in the Mediterranean; and whether he can state how long the repairs spread over 1906 and subsequently took, and what was the total cost.
    MR. McKENNA: The figures given in the first part of my hon. friend's Question, if intended to apply to Return No. 74 of 1905, are approximately correct. The ship carried out a full-power trial after refit, and steamed about 160 miles for this purpose. The last refit occupied from September, 1906, till February,

    2113
    1908, and was carried out concurrently with other work at Haulbowline. The cost was £13,619, which included arrangements for magazine cooling. The "Philomel" is attached to the Mediterranean Fleet primarily to be available for particular service if requested by the Foreign Office or Colonial Office, in time of peace, especially in the Red Sea, where she has been for some months this year.

    The Two-Power Naval Standard.
    MR. ARTHUR LEE: I beg to ask the Prime Minister whether his attention has been called to the report of a Resolution, recently passed by the signatories to the Memorial on Reduction of Armaments, in which, apparently as the result of private communications with the Prime Minister, the signatories profess to have obtained justification for the hope that he will shortly make a public announcement modifying the statements which he recently made in this House on the subject of the two-Power standard, to ask him further whether the Report in question has been published with his authority, and whether there is any justification for the suggestion that the views of the Government have undergone a change since his public announcements on 13th and 23rd November.
    THE PRIME MINISTER AND FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY (Mr. ASQUITH,): The views of the Government have not undergone any change, nor have I any intention of modifying the statements which I have made. My Answer to which the hon. Gentleman refers, did not announce any change of policy, but the intentions of the Government to continue to pursue a policy which has now been followed for a number of years. I indicated to some of my hon. friends my willingness to make a fuller statement on the whole subject than is possible within the limits of an Answer to a Question, and I rather deprecate these important matters being discussed in the form of Question and Answer. When the proper opportunity comes I shall hope to make a fuller statement.
    MR. ARTHUR LEE: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there would have been no disposition on this side of the House to put down Questions on this subject but for the Resolution passed by a section of his own supporters?
    MR. ASQUITH: I do not make any complaint against anybody, but I do think that in matters of so much gravity and delicacy as the question of the two-Power standard, it is not altogether desirable that a Minister should be compelled, probably in answer to a supplementary Question, on the spur of the moment to use language which, however carefully chosen, may always be liable to a certain amount of misinterpretation.
    MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN): May we understand from the right hon. Gentleman that the opportunity to which he looks forward of making a statement will be in this House?
    MR. ASQUITH: Yes, certainly.

    Indian Famine Prevention Operations.
    MR. REES: I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for India whether the results of the prevention of famine operations of the Government of the United Provinces, which have recently been summarised, can in any way be made available to hon. Members of Parliament.
    THE UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR INDIA (Mr. BUCHANAN,): Pending the presentation of the Report to Parliament, the Secretary of State, with the view of meeting the request of the hon. Member, has placed one of the copies received from India in the Library of this House.
    MR. REES: Is it not desirable to circulate it among hon. Members, so that Indian critics may learn something from Indian administration?
    MR. BUCHANAN: It can be circulated.

    The Unrest in India.
    MR. REES: I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for India whether he

    2115
    will give the caste in each case of the persons convicted in India of sedition, bomb-throwing, and other crimes of the like character during the present year.
    MR. BUCHANAN: As I stated yesterday the Secretary of State is unable to give this information.
    MR. REES: I am sorry I did not hear the right hon. Gentleman's Answer yesterday—there was a noisy demonstration at the time—but does he not consider it very desirable that this should be done so that the limitations of this agitation may be made clear to the House?
    MR. BUCHANAN: I do not think it desirable to add another column to the Return asked for.
    SIR H. COTTON: Have not all the persons punished been of the upper caste?
    MR. BUCHANAN: I am not prepared to admit that.
    MR. REES: Have they not all been Brahmins?
    MR. BUCHANAN: I will leave the hon. Gentlemen to settle that point between them.
    MR. MACKARNESS: Will the return, when published, be brought up to the end of this year.
    MR. BUCHANAN: No doubt it will be brought up to as late a date as possible.
    SIR H. COTTON: I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for India whether he can state the reason of the arrest of Mr. Krishna Kumar Mitter, I in Calcutta, and of Messrs. Aswini, Kumar Dutt and Pulin Behary Dutt, in Eastern Bengal; what charges have been made against them; and under what law have proceedings been taken; in their case.
    The following Questions were also on the Paper—
    MR. MACKARNESS: To ask the Under-Secretary of State for India whether he
    2116
    will state how many British subjects in India have been arrested and deported without trial, and upon what evidence; what is the charge made by the Indian Government against them; has the charge been made known to them; and have any or all of them been given any opportunity of answering the charge.
    SIR H. COTTON: To ask the Under-Secretary of State for India if he can state the reasons why it has been deemed necessary to arrest and deport nine leading Nationalists in Bengal without charge or trial under Regulation 3 of 1818, instead of proceeding against them under the ordinary law in the Courts of justice.
    MR. G. GOOCH: To ask the Under-Secretary of State for India whether he can inform the House on what grounds nine Indians have recently been arrested under the Regulations of 1818; and whether they will speedily be brought to trial.
    MR. BUCHANAN: I may perhaps be allowed to answer the four Questions on this subject together. Nine persons in all have been arrested under Regulation III. of 1818; under that Regulation it is not necessary to formulate charges against them, and they will not be brought to trial, but the Government of India are satisfied that their seclusion under the Regulation is necessary "for the security of the British dominions in India from internal commotion." The prisoners are, no doubt, aware of the grounds on which they have been arrested, and it is open to them to forward to the Governor-General in Council any representations they desire to submit.
    SIR H. COTTON: May I ask whether these persons have been arrested under that portion of the regulation which declares that it is necessary to place under personal restraint individuals against whom there may not be sufficient ground to institute any judicial proceedings?
    MR. BUCHANAN: They have been arrested under the terms of that part of the regulation to which I have referred.
    SIR H. COTTON: Why were judicial proceedings not taken against them?
    MR. BUCHANAN'Sreply was inaudible.
    MR. KEIR HARDIE: Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether any proceedings have ever been taken in this connection against Mr. Krishna Kumar Mitter and whether Mr. Kumar Dutt, on being accused of sedition a year ago, did not successfully raise an action for damages against the official who brought the accusation?
    MR. BUCHANANasked for notice of the Question.
    MR. REES: Is the regulation of 1818 the regulation under which Lajpat Rai was deported from the Punjab with such satisfactory results?
    MR. BUCHANAN: It is the same regulation.
    MR. MACKARNESS: Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether these persons have been told what is the charge against them, and, if so, what is their answer?
    MR. BUCHANAN: I have stated that they have full opportunity of forwarding to the Governor-General in Council any representations they desire to make.
    MR. MACKARNESS: Were they told before they were deported for what reason they were to be deported?
    MR. BUCHANAN: I have no reason to believe that they are ignorant on that point.
    MR. MACKARNESS: Has the right hon. Gentleman any reason for thinking—
    MR. SPEAKER: Order, order. The hon. Member has had two or three supplementary Questions already.
    MR. RAMSAY MACDONALD: May I ask whether this Mr. Krishna Kumar Mitter is the author of a very fervent and eloquent appeal to
    2118
    young men to refrain from murder and disorder, published immediately after the attempt on the life of Sir Andrew Fraser?
    MR. BUCHANAN: I cannot answer that.
    MR. LUPTON: Have the Indian Government lately been in consultation with M. Stolypin?
    [No Answer was returned.]
    SIR H. COTTON: I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for India whether his attention has been drawn to a case in Allahabad in which the youthful editor of a newspaper called the Swarajya or "Self-Government," has been sentenced to seven years transportation three times over, for sedition, the sentences to run concurrently; whether any appeal lies in this case; and whether the Government propose to take any action to the severity of the orders passed.
    MR. REES: May I ask whether a man who is old enough to edit a newspaper is not old enough to know better?
    MR. BUCHANAN: The attention of the Secretary of State has been drawn to this case. The accused is entitled to appeal. I have no reason to think that the Government of India proposes to take any exceptional action.
    SIR H. COTTON: I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for India if he can state when the Return regarding seditious prosecutions in India, which was promised in June last, will be laid upon the Table of the House.
    MR. BUCHANAN: The Secretary of State hopes to present early next session the Return for which the hon. Member moved on 29th July. The delay has been due to the necessity of going to the local authorities for accurate information.
    SIR H. COTTON: I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for India whether Mr. Pulin Behary Das, of Dacca, has been arrested and deported without charge or trial after criminal proceedings had been instituted against him in the ordinary

    2119
    Courts of the country and the prosecution had failed.
    MR. BUCHANAN: The person has been arrested under Regulation 3 of 1818; the criminal proceedings against him did not fail, but were interrupted by the murder of the principal witness, and he was only released on bail.
    MR. MACKARNESS: On whose evidence were these persons arrested under this Regulation?
    MR. BUCHANAN: They were arrested after the most careful examination had been given to statements submitted by the best authorities.
    MR. LUPTON: Was the evidence subjected to cross examination?
    MR. MACKARNESS: Was it the evidence of the police?
    MR. SPEAKER: Order, order. That does not arise out of the Question.
    MR. REES: I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for India whether, in native States in India, laws do not exist of the like character with Regulation 3 of 1818; and whether such laws are not enforced in such States from time to time by the ruling chiefs.
    MR. BUCHANAN: Native States have laws and usages of their own, with which, except in proved cases of gross maladministration, the British Government is under treaty obligations not to interfere. I am not in a position to state the laws on the subject referred to in the Member's Question that may be in force in the various States, or how far cases that arise are dealt with in accordance with usage. But, whether by law or usage, the Durbars of Native States are in a position to take action, when necessary, of a similar nature to that authorised by Regulation 3 of 1818.

    Indian Law of Summary Justice.
    MR. GINNELL: I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for India whether Members of this House will be supplied at the earliest possible date with the text of the new Indian Law
    2120
    of Summary Justice, together with such Memorandum or portions of other laws as may be necessary to elucidate it, and, in the case of editors and other persons punished under this new law for language written or spoken, with the text of the incriminated words used and statements of the punishments inflicted.
    MR. BUCHANAN: The hon. Member has no doubt received a copy of the Act; the Indian Codes to which it refers are to be found in the Library. As I have already stated, the Act deals with murderous outrages end kindred offences, and not with seditious writings or speeches.
    MR. MACKARNESS: May I ask whether under this law a prisoner charged, say, with murder is liable to have all the preliminary proceedings conducted in secrecy and without his advocate having an opportunity of cross-examining the witnesses.?
    MR. BUCHANAN: The hon. Gentleman can get an answer to that Question by going to the Vote Office.
    MR. MACKARNESS: But am I right that that is the case?
    [No Answer was returned.]

    Indian Public Works Department.
    MR. HART-DAVIES: I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for India whether the reorganisation of the Public Works Department as regards the separation between the Imperial and provincial services has been sanctioned by the Home Government and carried into effect by the Government of India; whether the Secretary of State is aware of the dissatisfaction caused in the provincial ranks of the service by what they regard as an unjust discrimination between engineers recruited in England and those recruited in India; and whether he proposes to take any steps in the matter.
    MR. BUCHANAN: The reorganisation of the Public Works Department separating the cadres of the imperial and provincial services has been sanctioned by the Secretary of State and introduced in India. Separation of the

    2121
    imperial and provincial cadres is in accordance with the recommendation of the Public Service Commission of 1887, and has been adopted in several of the other Departments of the Government of India. The Secretary of State is aware that this measure has given rise to some dissatisfaction among the provincial engineers; but, if there is ground for modifying details of the reorganisation scheme, local governments will no doubt address the Secretary of State through the Government of India.
    MR. HART-DAVIES: Is the Indian Office willing to receive representations on the subject from the Government of India?
    MR. BUCHANAN: We will wait and see what representations are made.

    Indian Factory Labour Commission Report.
    MR. REES: I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for India whether the Bengal Chamber of Commerce has addressed the Bengal Government in regard to the legislative proposals of the Report of the Indian Factory Labour Commission, urging that any new legislative provisions should not, in respect of jute mills, go beyond those prescribed by existing Acts; and whether, in view of the importance of this industry, the Government will insure that the said representation shall be favourably considered.
    MR. BUCHANAN: The Answer to the first Question is in the affirmative. The views of the Chamber will undoubtedly receive consideration, but the Secretary of State cannot undertake to say more than this.

    Madras Landed Estates Act.
    MR. REES: I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for India whether any representations have been received by the Secretary of State regarding the working of the Madras Landed Estates Act.
    MR. BUCHANAN: No representations regarding the working of the Madras Landed Estates Act have been received by the Secretary of State.

    Local Option in New Zealand.
    MR. CHARLES ROBERTS: I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies if he can now state the total number of electoral districts in New Zealand in which compulsory local option polls were held at the recent elections in that Dominion; the number and, if possible, the names, of the electoral districts in which no licence was carried at these elections; and the number of districts where a reduction of licences was secured; and whether, in any of the six electoral districts where no-licence was previously in existence, that policy has been reversed in the recent elections.
    THE UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE COLONIES (Colonel SEELY,): The number of districts in which local option polls were held at the recent election in New Zealand was sixty-eight, in fifteen the licence was carried, but the Secretary of State has not information as to the names of those districts; in eight a reduction of licences was secured, and the policy of no-licence was confirmed in all the six districts where no licence was previously in existence by increased majorities in all save one case, while six additional districts declared for no-licence, making twelve total prohibition districts.

    Financial Position of Mauritius.
    MR. BOLAND: I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether his attention has been called to the local demand made in Mauritius for a commission of inquiry into the financial position of the Colony; and what action he proposes to take in the matter.
    COLONEL SEELY: The matter has formed the subject of correspondence with the Mauritius Government. The unofficial Members of the Legislature rejected a proposal for a Commission which was put before them by Lord Elgin's directions, and I am not aware that they have at present changed their attitude with regard to it.

    Railway Construction in Crown Colonies.
    MR. GINNELL: I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies

    2123
    whether the construction of the Uganda Railway departmentally has cost, in both time and money, 100 per cent. more than it would have cost if constructed by contract, and the construction depart-mentally of the railway through the Sultanate of Johore, which was opened for traffic on the 12th instant, has cost, in both time and money, some 40 per cent. more than it would have cost if constructed by contract; whether he will state in respect of each of these works the original estimate of cost and time, the sum for which and the time in which it could have been done by contract, and the actual cost, in money and in time, under departmental management; whether the cost of the Kowloon Railway at Hong Kong, though only partially executed already exceeds the original estimate for completion of the entire work; whether he will state what the original estimate was, the cost to the present date, and the present estimate for the entire work; whether, in view of the waste under departmental management of which these are examples, it is proposed to continue that system in similar works in future; and, if so, for what reasons.
    COLONEL SEELY: The question how-much the Uganda Railway would have cost if it had been constructed by contract is one which naturally does not admit of a categorical answer, but the figures as to the cost of other railways in Africa given on pages 30–31 of Cd. 2164 show that its cost compares favourably with that of other railways in Africa, especially if allowance be made for the very great difficulties of the country. As regards the Johore Railway, which has been built by the Government of the Federated Malay States for the Government of Johore under a Convention with the Sultan, the estimate was £1,200,000. I have no information as to the actual cost of the other particulars asked for. No comparison can be made between the original estimate of the Kowloon Railway, which was necessarily to a large extent conjectural, and the present estimate, which is approximately $10,000,000, seeing that the increase is largely due to a review of the policy as to terminal accommodation as well as to the unexpected difficulties met with in the
    2124
    course of construction. The Secretary of State is unable to admit that these railways are examples of waste under departmental management or to commit himself as to the policy which may be adopted in the case of future railway works.
    MR. GINNELL: Is it not the fact that the work executed by the Crown Agents costs more in time and money than it would if it were put out to public tender?
    COLONEL SEELY: Generally speaking, I do not think that is so. I have gone carefully into the matter.
    MR. REES: Was not this question of construction by Crown Agents recently investigated by the Committee of which the hon. and gallant Gentleman was President?
    COLONEL SEELY: Yes, Sir, and that Committee, over which I presided, has enabled me to give a fuller reply to this Question than I might otherwise have done.

    Transvaal and Orange River Civil Service.
    MR. CARLILE: I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies if he will ascertain the number of Civil servants of British birth in the Transvaal and Orange River Colonies who, while being retained in the employment of the Colonial Governments, have had their status, rank, and salaries reduced since the grant of self-government to these Colonies.
    COLONEL SEELY: No, Sir. The Secretary of State is not prepared further to trouble the Colonial Governments, who have already been good enough to supply a large quantity of information.

    Dinizulu's Trial.
    MR. MACKARNESS: I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies if he can state whether the case for the Crown against Dinizulu has yet been closed; whether witnesses for the defence have been called; and how long the trial is likely to last.
    COLONEL SEELY: I have no information that the case for the Crown has been closed. The proceedings opened on 19th November. With regard to the duration of the trial my hon. and learned friend well knows it is always difficult to forecast the length of legal proceedings, and, moreover, we believe that the number of witnesses to be called on both sides is exceedingly large.
    MR. MACKARNESS: Does the hon. and gallant Gentleman think it will ever come to an end?
    COLONEL SEELY: Oh, yes, some day, I hope.

    Repatriation of Chinese Labour for South Africa.
    MR. MACKARNESS: I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he will state the date on which the last shipload of Chinese labourers, repatriated from the Rand, left South Africa, and the date on which the next shipload is intended to leave.
    COLONEL SEELY: The last shipload left in October, and I presume that the next will leave or has left during this month. The exact dates are not reported to the Colonial Office, but the despatch of the vessels must depend on the date of termination of the contracts. No Chinese were imported in November 1905.

    Case of Mr. Silberad.
    MR. WEDGWOOD: I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether, in view of the fact that the inquiry into the conduct of Mr. Silberad was held in public, and that the Judge's report and the signed depositions of the native witnesses are now in private hands in this country, he will lay upon the Table of the House the official report of the Judge, together with the Judge's transcript of the evidence.
    COLONEL SEELY: The Secretary of State does not consider that it would be in the public interest that Papers should be laid on this subject. The fact that the inquiry was held in public as stated in the Question removes an undesirable
    2126
    element of secrecy, and it would appear undesirable to give wide dissemination to the details of the case.
    MR. WEDGWOOD: Does not the hon. Gentleman think that this policy of hushing up is likely to cause damage-to British prestige by creating the idea that this serious crime is common among. British officials?
    MR. SPEAKER: That is a matter of opinion on which every man can form his own conclusion.

    British Indians in the Transvaal.
    MR. O'GRADY: I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether his attention has been drawn to the case of four British-Indian boys who were punished as prohibited immigrants for entering the Transvaal with their parents, three to a fine of £15 or two months imprisonment, and one to a fine of £5 or fourteen days hard labour; whether he is aware that three of the boys were ten, eleven, and twelve years of age, and that they were all sent to gaol; and whether he can state the number of British-Indian children that have been sent to gaol for a similar offence.
    MR. SCOTT: At the same time may I ask the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies-whether he has yet received a report of the case of Hira Mulji, a boy of twelve, who was recently sentenced to fourteen days imprisonment for entering the Transvaal with his father, and subsequently sentenced to a further month's imprisonment for the same offence; and whether he proposes to take any steps in this matter, and prevent the further imprisonment of British-Indian children in like circumstances.
    COLONEL SEELY: We are still waiting for a reply from the Governor to our telegraphic inquiry.
    MR. REES: Will the hon. Gentleman also inquire if there are institutions other than prisons to which the children could be sent in such cases if they did not accompany their parents to prison?
    COLONEL SEELY: Yes, I will inquire.

    Crown Agents' Committee.
    MR. REES: I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether the Crown Agents Committee has reported; and, if the Answer be in the affirmative, whether he will lay the Report.
    COLONEL SEELY: Yes, Sir; and the Report will be laid on the Table after the Secretary of State has been able to consider carefully the recommendations which it contains.

    Game Traps for Southern Nigeria.
    MR. T. F. RICHARDS: I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he is aware of the effect of the tax put upon traps exported from this country to Southern Nigeria upon the makers of these traps in the Wednesfield district of Wolverhampton and also upon the natives who augment their income by trapping, and who now claim that the trapping is checked for the benefit of sport and sportsmen; and whether his Department will advise the removal of this tax until at least the policy has been accepted by the Government.
    COLONEL SEELY: As regards the effect of the increased duty upon the makers of the traps, and the policy of the Government in this matter, I can add nothing to the very full printed reply which I gave on the 8th of this month to my hon. friend the Member for Wolverhampton. No complaints have reached the Colonial Office from the natives, nor any suggestion that trapping is checked in the interests of sport, and I may observe that the proposal to increase the duty was carried unanimously in the Legislative Council with the support of the native members.

    Germany, Portugal, and Delagoa Bay.
    MR. LONSDALE: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he is aware of a German loan to Portugal having been arranged on the security of Delagoa Bay and its port and railway; and, if so, what steps is it proposed to take, to safeguard British interests in the
    2128
    South African Hinterland served by Delagoa Bay.
    THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (Sir EDWARD GREY,): There is no foundation whatever for the rumour that such a loan has been arranged.
    MR. LONSDALEinquired whether the right hon. Gentleman had seen the statement in the newspapers.
    SIR EDWARD GREY: I took steps to ascertain whether there was any truth in it.

    Promotion in the Egyptian Service.
    DR. RUTHERFORD: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he will advise the British Agent in Egypt to strengthen the rule that all appointments and promotions of Egyptian officials shall be made on merit and apart from religious persuasion.
    SIR EDWARD GREY: Recent appointments in Egypt have gone to show that the principles referred to are those to which the Egyptian Government is adhering.

    Water Supply of Cairo.
    DR. RUTHERFORD: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether his attention has been called to the complaints concerning the quality of the water supply of Cairo; and whether any steps are being taken to improve it.
    SIR EDWARD GREY: The question of the water supply at Cairo was inquired into by three experts, whose Report was published in the Egyptian Journal Officiel of 30th December, 1907.

    Egyptian Administration.
    MR. J. M. ROBERTSON: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he has now had his attention called to the Resolution unanimously passed on 1st December by the Legislative Council of Egypt, praying the Khedive to prepare an organic measure conferring on the nation the right to participate effectively in the interior administration of

    2129
    the country and in the direction of local affairs, with reservation of all matters covered by the Capitulations or regarding the public debt and its liquidation, the relations of Europeans with the Egyptian Government, the tribute paid to Turkey, the international relations of Egypt, and the right of the Khedivial Government to enter into treaties with other nations; and whether His Majesty's Government will urge the British Agent at Cairo to give his active support to this appeal.
    SIR EDWARD GREY: The Answer to the first half of the Question is in the affirmative. With regard to the latter half, the terms of the reply to be returned to the Resolution are now under the consideration of the Egyptian Government, and I can add nothing to the last statement of the general principles by which the action of His Majesty's Government is guided in this matter.
    MR. J. M. ROBERTSON: May I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether the decision as regards the answer to this appeal is to be left solely or substantially in the hands of the Consul-General at Cairo, or whether His Majesty's Government will not take a direct controlling influence in this matter?
    SIR EDWARD GPEY: The last statement of the principles by which, we were guided in this matter was made by Sir Eldon Gorst himself, and received the entire approval of His Majesty's Government.
    MR. J. M. ROBERTSON: But will the Government give the Consul-General a lead?
    MR. CURRAN: May I ask whether the Government is at present contemplating a revision in the Legislative Council of Egypt, and whether the right hon. Gentleman is aware that the appointed persons out-number the popularly elected persons on that body?
    SIR EDWARD GREY: While we are not contemplating a revision of that body, we have been contemplating and engaged in the last year in carrying out
    2130
    reforms in the direction of municipal councils. Our attention remains concentrated upon that.
    MR. CURRAN: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that towards the latter part of last session the then Under-Secretary for Foreign Affairs promised that this matter should be investigated by the Government?
    SIR EDWARD GREY: I am not aware of any promise made by other Ministers.
    MR. MACKARNESS: Can the right hon. Gentleman say when he will acquaint this House with the determination which His Majesty's Government have come to upon the Resolution of the Legislative Council?
    SIR EDWARD GREY: When the answer is given by the Egyptian Government, no doubt it will be made public.
    MR. MACKARNESSinquired when that would be.
    SIR EDWARD GREY: I only had a copy of the Resolution itself yesterday.

    Prevention of Crime in Egypt.
    MR. J. M. ROBERTSON: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether his attention has been called to the increasing insecurity of life in Egypt, particularly as exemplified in the long and continued series of attempts at train-wrecking in the Behera Province, in connection with none of which have the authorities been able to secure a conviction; whether he is aware that such failure is commonly asserted to be due in part to the jealousy existing between police and the parquet; and whether, in view of these and other instances of inefficiency in the machinery for the prevention of crime in Egypt, he will now urge upon the Egyptian Government the expediency of a thorough investigation of the system, with the aid and counsel of natives of due experience in public affairs.
    SIR EDWARD GREY: I am in communication with His Majesty's Agent at Cairo respecting the reported cases of

    2131
    lawlessness furnished me by the hon. Member. Pending Sir Eldon Gorst's Report, I am not prepared to urge any special course of action on the Egyptian Government.

    British Army of Occupation in Egypt.
    MR. J. M. ROBERTSON: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether his announcements that the addition made to the annual cost of the British Army of Occupation in Egypt in 1906 was in consequence of events that happened early in that year have reference to the relations then subsisting between this country and Turkey; whether these relations are still such as to call for the expenditure in question; and whether he will state to the House the grounds upon which that expenditure is still maintained.
    SIR EDWARD GREY: The annual cost of the British Army of Occupation in Egypt depends upon the numbers of the force. In 1904 a considerable reduction was made in the numbers; it was done from motives of economy and from a desire to reduce as far as possible any burdens upon the Egyptian budget; but it was felt at the time that the reduction brought the numbers to a very low point, and must be subject to future reconsideration. The conditions which originated with the European naval demonstration against Turkish islands in 1905, and which were intensified by the Sinai boundary difficulties in 1906, led to a review of the situation in consultation with the authorities at home, and it was decided in the earlier part of 1906 to restore the numbers substantially to what they had been before the reduction in 1904. If the point referred to in the Question were the only one to be taken into account, the matter might no doubt be reconsidered, and the situation is as a matter of fact reviewed from time to time. But, having regard to the various contingencies that may arise and to the fact that the needs of the Soudan as well as of Egypt must be taken into account, the military authorities are not of opinion that any change in the nature of a reduction should be made.

    The Naval Conference—Validity of Captures.
    MR. HUNT: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether, at the present Naval Conference, the question of submitting the validity of captures of an enemy's merchantmen by a belligerent Navy to an International Court of Award is to be discussed.
    I beg also to ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether the question of returning captured merchant vessels to the enemy from whom they were taken is to be discussed at the present Naval Conference.
    SIR EDWARD GREY: Except as regards a few clearly defined cases enumerated in Article 3 of the Prize Court Convention of the Second Peace Conference, the general question of the treatment of enemy merchant vessels is not one within the juridsiction of the proposed International Court. That question accordingly forms no part of the programme of the present Naval Conference.

    Labour in Egyptian Factories.
    MR. G. GOOCH: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether any steps have now been taken in reference to the conditions of labour in Egyptian factories.
    SIR EDWARD GREY: At the end of October the question was under consideration, and Commissioners were to be appointed to inquire into the matter, the delay being due to the fact that the factories were only then beginning the season's work.' As soon as the question has been studied by the Egyptian Government, Sir Eldon Gorst will submit a Report on the subject.

    Conviction for Cycle Stealing at Wolverhampton.
    MR. GEORGE THORNE: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he has received a petition signed by a number of the inhabitants of Brewood, near Wolverhampton, submitting that a miscarriage of justice has taken place by the sentencing of three Irishmen named Thomas Lyons, James Corfield, and

    2133
    Martin Murphy, none of whom had been previously charged with any offence, and who were not professionally represented, at the Brewood Petty Sessions on 16th November last to three months hard labour for the alleged theft of a bicycle; whether he is aware that all three of these men maintained that the bicycle was only detained by them by reason of one of them, Thomas Lyons, having been knocked down by it, and its rider refusing on request to give his name and address, and that the detention was with no felonious intent, but with a view to securing redress for the injury sustained; and whether he will direct the release of these men.
    The following Questions were also on the Paper:—
    MR. PATRICK O'BRIEN: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he has received a petition signed by a large number of the inhabitants of Brewood, near Wolverhampton, submitting that a serious miscarriage of justice has taken place by the sentencing of three Irishmen named Thomas Lyons, James Corfield, and Martin Murphy, none of whom had been previously charged with any offence, and who were not professionally represented, at the Brewood Petty Sessions on 16th November last to three months hard labour, for the alleged theft of a bicycle; whether he is aware that it is alleged by all three of these men, and submitted by the petitioners, that the bicycle was only detained by them by reason of one of them, Thomas Lyons, having been knocked down by it, and its rider refusing, on request, to give his name and address, and that the detention was with no felonious intent whatever, but solely to obtain the information asked for, with a view to securing redress for the injury sustained; and whether he will direct the release of these men.
    MR. McLAREN: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether his attention has been called to the case of three men named Thomas Lyons, James Corfield, and Martin Murphy, residing at Brewood, in Staffordshire,
    2134
    who were sentenced to three months hard labour on 16th November for stealing a bicycle; and whether, in view of the doubts existing that the accused had any felonious intent, and in view of their previous exemplary character, as testified by the fact that over 600 signatures were secured in the neighbourhood to a petition on their behalf, he will cause inquiry to be made into the case with a view to remitting the remainder of the sentence.
    THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE HOME DEPARTMENT (Mr. GLADSTONE,): I have caused careful inquiry to be made as to the facts of this case. The evidence shows that the prisoner Lyons, knocked one of four cyclists off his bicycle into a ditch. The prisoner then took possession of the cycle, and demanded compensation from the cyclists for pretended injury. On the cyclists refusing to comply with this demand, the prisoners retained the bicycle, and it was found in Lyons' house on his arrest. I see no reason to doubt the justice of the conviction. As, however, I find that the prisoners had hitherto borne good characters, I have decided to advise, as an act of clemency, that the sentence of Lyons, the principal offender, be reduced to two months, and that of his companions to six weeks.
    MR. PATRICK O'BRIEN: Will the right hon. Gentleman extend his clemency to these prisoners and release them about Christmas time in view of the fact that a great many people who have no sympathy with them still believe that there has been a miscarriage of justice? Does he think that any useful purpose will be served by keeping them in prison for two months when they ought to be earning a living for their families?
    MR. McLAREN: May I join in the same appeal? The memorial was signed very numerously.
    MR. GLADSTONE: I have given the matter very careful consideration, and I cannot add anything to my statement.
    MR. JOHN O'CONNOR: Is it not a fact that these men were

    2135
    convicted of a technical offence, and that the element of intent was entirely absent from the case?
    MR. GLADSTONE: I cannot admit that at all. The case was very carefully considered by Lord Hatherton, who is a Chairman of Quarter Sessions.
    MR. PATRICK O'BRIEN: The right hon. Gentleman has heard only one side of the case, and that is the record of the Court. [Order, order.]
    MR. SPEAKER: Will the hon. Gentleman put his Question?
    MR. PATRICK O'BRIEN: I will, but I was interrupted. May I ask whether, in view of the fact—
    MR. SPEAKER: Order, order. Will the hon. Gentleman leave out all preliminaries?
    MR. PATRICK O'BRIEN: Yes, Sir. Will the right hon. Gentleman give me permission to visit these prisoners and hear what they have to say?
    MR. GLADSTONE: I cannot put the hon. Gentleman in the position of a Judge in the case; but I will certainly give proper consideration to any request that may be made to see the prisoners.
    MR. PATRICK O'BRIEN: I do appeal to be allowed to see them, and to take down from them such statements as they may have to make.
    [No Answer was returned.]

    Disappearances of Seamen at Sea.
    MR. J. JOHNSON: I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade whether his attention has been called to the suicide at sea of a coaltrimmer named Abudallee on the "Alcana," of Liverpool, on 4th September, 1908; whether any inquiry was held; whether Abudallee had previous sea service;
    2136
    whether he was medically examined before joining the ship; whether the Board of Trade surveyors have satisfactorily reported upon the ventilation, of the stokehold; if he can state the amount of coal the firemen and trimmers-were required to work in each twenty-four hours; and whether any previous cases of suicide or supposed suicide amongst stokehold hands have occurred on this vessel.
    THE PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD OF TRADE (Mr. CHURCHILL,): Yes, Sir; inquiry was held in the case of the "Alcana" by the Assistant Shipping Master at Calcutta. The man was shipped at Calcutta, and it was-his first voyage, but I am not aware whether he had been medically examined. As the vessel is trading abroad, the Board of Trade surveyors have not yet had an opportunity of reporting on the ventilation of the stokehold. The coal consumption was 30 tons per twenty-four hours; and the number of firemen and trimmers, fifteen. No previous cases of suicide or supposed suicide on board this vessel have been supported.
    MR. BELLOC: Can the right hon. Gentleman name the owners of the ship?
    MR. CHURCHILL: The names can easily be obtained. I do not carry them in my head.
    MR. J. WILLIAMS: I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade whether his attention has been called to the disappearance at sea of a trimmer named Romezalla Shoralla on the ss: "Clan Lindsay," of Glasgow, on 17th September, 1908; whether any inquiry was held; whether the seaman was medically examined before joining the ship, and whether he had any previous sea service; whether the Board of Trade surveyors have satisfactorily reported upon the ventilation of the stokehold; if he can state the amount of coal the firemen and trimmers were required to work in each twenty-four hours; and whether any previous cases of suicide, supposed suicide,

    2137
    or disappearances amongst stokehold hands have occurred on this ship.
    MR. CHURCHILL: Yes, Sir; inquiry was held in the case of the "Clan Lindsay" by the Acting Consul-General at Port Said, the Superintendent of the Mercantile Marine Office at Glasgow, and the principal Board of Trade officer at Glasgow. The man joined the ship at Calcutta, and had been medically examined. It was his first voyage. The Board of Trade surveyors reported that the conditions under which the man worked, so far as the ship was concerned, had no bearing on his disappearance. The spaces were not below the average in the matter of ventilation. The consumption of coal was 35 tons per twenty-four hours; and the number of firemen and trimmers was fifteen. One previous case of suicide occurred on board the "Clan Lindsay," and was the subject of a Question by the hon. Member for the Ince division on 3rd March last.

    Suicides of Lascars.
    MR. HAVELOCK WILSON: I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade if he is aware that the Returns of deaths of seamen, reported to the Registrar of Shipping and Seamen in 1907, show that fifty-eight lascar firemen and trimmers committed suicide on British foreign-going ships in that year; and, seeing that the number of Asiatics employed as firemen and trimmers was 15,582, and among whom the proportion of deaths from suicide is thus shown to be as one in every 268 men employed, will he say what steps he proposes to take.
    MR. CHURCHILL: I have had the Returns of deaths of seamen reported to the Registrar-General of Shipping and Seamen in 1907 carefully examined, but the result does not bear out the statement that fifty-eight lascar firemen and trimmers committed suicide in that year. The returns show that seventeen lascar firemen and trimmers were known to have committed suicide, five were supposed to have committed suicide, and twenty-two disappeared, making
    2138
    a maximum of forty-four lascars who may possibly have met their deaths by suicide. Moreover, the figure 15,582, represents only the number of lascars firemen and trimmers who were actually on oriental articles of agreement on a certain day in 1906, and does not include the large number of such persons who may have been ashore and unemployed on that day. The proportion of deaths by suicide as calculated by my hon. friend is, therefore, subject to considerable modification. The facts are, however, sufficiently serious to demand earnest attention, and I am taking steps to secure that every case is thoroughly investigated with a view to the discovery and if possible the mitigation of the conditions which lead to such frequent suicides amongst lascars.
    MR. REES: Is there any reason to believe that Europeans are available for and anxious for these duties, and that if they performed them there would be fewer suicides among them than among Asiatics?
    [No Answer was returned.]

    SS. "Bullmouth."
    MR. KENDAL O'BRIEN: I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade whether his attention has been called to the death at sea from heart disease of a fireman, named Leong Kan, on the ss. "Bullmouth," of London on 15th October, 1908; whether he was on duty at the time of his death; whether he was medically examined at the time of his engagement; whether he had had any previous sea service; whether he can state the amount of coal the firemen and trimmers were required to work in each twenty-four hours; and whether any previous cases of death from heart disease or supposed heart disease amongst stokehold hands have occurred on this vessel.
    MR. CHURCHILL: Yes, Sir, inquiry was held in the case of the "Bullmouth" by the Vice-Consul at Algiers, the Superintendent of the Mercantile Marine Office at North Shields, and by the principal Board of Trade officer for the

    2139
    north-eastern district. The man was not on duty at the time of his death. He was engaged at Singapore, but I am not aware whether he had been medically examined or had had previous sea service. The consumption of coal was twenty-seven tens per twenty-four hours, and the number of firemen and trimmers was thirteen. No previous deaths from heart disease on board this vessel have been reported.

    SS. "Karonga."
    MR. HOGAN: I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade whether his attention has been called to the disappearance at sea of a trimmer named Abdool Momd Massislat, on the ss. "Karonga," of North Shields, on 19th September, 1908; whether any inquiry was held; whether the seaman was medically examined before joining the ship; whether he had had any previous sea service; whether the Board of Trade surveyors have satisfactorily reported upon the ventilation of the stokehold; if he can state the amount of coal the firemen and trimmers were required to work in each twenty-four hours; and whether any previous cases of suicide, supposed suicide, or disappearance amongst stokehold hands have occurred on this ship.
    MR. CHURCHILL: Yes, Sir. Inquiry was held by the Acting Consul-General at Algiers in the case referred to by my hon. friend. The man was shipped at Calcutta, and I am informed that it is the practice for the crews of all vessels belonging to the owners of the "Karonga" to be medically examined when engaged at Calcutta, but I am not aware whether this particular man had been so examined or had had previous sea service. As the vessel has not returned to the United Kingdom since the date of the occurrence, the Board of Trade Surveyors have not yet had an opportunity of reporting upon the ventilation of the stockhold. The coal consumption was forty-three tons, and the number of firemen and trimmers was eighteen. One previous case of disappearance from this vessel has been reported.

    SS. "Umkuzi"
    MR. JENKINS: I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade whether his attention has been called to the death at sea from exhaustion of a fireman named Ravid Ullah on ss. "Umkuzi," of London, on 10th September, 1908; whether any inquiry was held; whether the seaman was medically examined before joining the ship; whether he had had any previous sea service; whether the Board of Trade surveyors have satisfactorily reported upon the ventilation of the stokehold; if he can state the amount of coal the firemen and trimmers were required to work in each twenty-four hours; and whether any previous cases of deaths from exhaustion, heat stroke, or heart failure amongst the stokehold hands have occurred on this ship.
    MR. CHURCHILL: Yes, Sir. Inquiry was held in the case of the "Umkuzi" by the Deputy Port Conservator at Madras. I am informed that the crew were medically examined, but I am not aware whether the man had had previous sea service. As the vessel has been trading abroad since the date of the occurrence, the Board of Trade surveyors have not yet had an opportunity of reporting on the ventilation of the stokehold. I do not know what the present coal consumption is, but when last reported on, it was eighteen tons for twenty-four hours, and the number of firemen and trimmers was fourteen. No previous cases of death from any of the causes specified have been reported.

    SS. "Indrani."
    MR. HALL: I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade whether his attention has been called to the suicide of a fireman named Mowtas Ali, at sea, on ss. "Indrani," of Liverpool, 18th August, 1908; whether any inquiry was held; whether the seaman was medically examined before joining the ship, and whether he had had previous sea service; whether the Board of Trade surveyors have satisfactorily reported upon the ventilation of the stokehold; if he can

    2141
    state the amount of coal the firemen and trimmers were required to work in each twenty-four hours; and whether any previous cases of suicide or supposed suicide amongst the stokehold hands have occurred on this vessel.
    MR. CHURCHILL: Yes, Sir. Inquiry was held in the case of the "Indrani" by the British Consul at Amoy. The man was shipped at Singapore, and had not been medically examined, but had had previous service as fireman. He had been on board only one day and had done only one hour's duty. I have no reason to believe that the ventilation is defective, but as the vessel has been trading abroad the Board of Trade surveyors have not had an opportunity of reporting on it since the occurrence in question. The Consul states that the consumption of coal was twenty-three cwt. per hour, and the number of firemen and trimmers, sixteen. No previous case of suicide or supposed suicide on board this vessel has been reported.

    SS. "Haslingden."
    MR. HAVELOCK WILSON: I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade whether his attention has been called to a case which was tried at the Swansea Police Court on 30th November last, when the master of the steamer "Haslingden" was summoned for non-compliance with the Board of Trade requirements respecting lifeboats; whether his attention has been called to the statement of Captain W. B. Whall, principal officer of the Surveyor's Department of the Board of Trade for the South Wales District, to the effect that it was the surveyor's duty to examine the life-saving appliances of a ship, but there were not enough surveyors to deal with one-tenth of the vessels, that they had statutory duties that were paid for and took precedence of every other duty, to measure new ships, inspect boilers, and that a vessel might go for years and never be seen by surveyor's; and whether, in view of this state of affairs, the Board of Trade will consider the advisability of appointing additional surveyors in order that the life-saving appliances of vessels may be properly inspected.
    MR. CHURCHILL: My attention has been called to the case of the "Haslingden," and I am informed that the newspaper report of the evidence referred to is not quite accurate. The inspection of ships in matters of safety takes precedence over every other duty, and, if there were reason to think that the present staff was insufficient to secure proper inspection, it would be increased. It is not necessary nor is it indeed possible to inspect every ship when going to sea on every voyage, but every passenger vessel is inspected at least once a year, and in the Cardiff district I find that on the average the number of ships on which the life-saving appliances are inspected is over 100 per month.

    North British Railway Company.
    MR. HUDSON: I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade if his attention has been called to the action recently adopted by the North British Railway Company in booking their spare engine-drivers and fireman to be called when wanted, whereby the men cannot know at what time in any twenty-four hours they will have to go on duty, or even if they are required for duty at all; whether he is aware that in consequence these men are often called for duty when they have been waiting for long periods and are retiring to rest; and what steps, if any, he will take in the matter.
    MR. CHURCHILL: I have been in communication with the railway company, and have received a reply of which I am forwarding a copy to the hon. Member. The company assure me that every effort is made to give the men as long notice as possible of the time when they will be required.
    MR. HUDSON: Will the right hon. Gentleman inquire if men have not been called on for duty after having already been waiting for work twenty-six hours?
    MR. CHURCHILL: I am sending the hon. Gentleman a copy of the company's communication.
    MR. KEIR HARDIE: Has the right hon. Gentleman got any statement from the men?
    MR. CHURCHILL: No, Sir.

    Port of London Lights.
    MR. MCARTHUR: I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware of the objections which are entertained to the control of the local lights of the Port of London by Trinity House and the payment of the cost of the said lights out of the General Lighthouse Fund, while the local lights of the principal provincial ports are controlled by the Port Authorities and maintained by local dues; and whether he has it in contemplation to take any action in the matter.
    MR. CHURCHILL: I am advised that such a transfer as is proposed within the area of the Port of London would only result in a saving of between £3,000 to £4,000 a year to the General Lighthouse Fund, a saving which would be imperceptible to the shipowners, inasmuch as the annual expenditure out of this fund is about half a million. On the other hand, a much greater burden would be cast upon the Port Authority, as a duplicate staff and plant would have to be provided. In these circumstances I am not prepared to take any action in the direction proposed, but I should add that I have decided to reduce the light dues as from 1st April next by a further 10 per cent., representing an estimated saving to the shipowners of some £60,000 a year.

    The Meat Inquiry.
    MR. COOPER: I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade whether any circular has been issued by the Committee appointed to inquire whether the price of meat is controlled by any combination of foreign firms, offering to allow persons who may desire to give evidence the option of appearing before the Committee or, if they so desire it, before its chairman and secretary only, without the disclosure of their names and addresses;
    2144
    and, if issued, whether he can say on whose authority this has been done and whether it is in conformity with the procedure of Committees.
    MR. CHURCHILL: I understand that no such circular as my hon. friend suggests has been issued by the Committee; but in view of all the circumstances of the inquiry the Committee have thought it right to give certain witnesses the option of giving evidence under a guarantee of non-publicity. The Committee have control of their own procedure, and are entitled to take such steps as they may deem necessary and desirable to carry out the inquiry which has been entrusted to them, I may add that I entirely concur in the course taken.

    Agrarian Offences in Ireland.
    MR. BARRIE: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland if he will ascertain from the police and Petty Sessions clerks in Ireland the number of persons who were arrested for agrarian offences during the past twelve months and brought before a single resident magistrate out of Petty Sessions, with a view to their being bound over to future good behaviour under the Act of Edward III.
    THE CHIEF SECRETARY FOR IRELAND (Mr. BIRRELL,): I have already informed the hon. Member that it would not be possible to give this Return without communicating with every Petty Sessions district in Ireland. The utility of the Return would not be commensurate with the labour involved in preparing it.
    MR. BARRIE: Does the right hon. Gentleman suggest that it is detrimental to the public interest to get the information?
    MR. BIRRELL: Not at all. I will make inquiry as to the amount of labour it would impose, and if it can be done it shall. But I can make no promise until I find out.

    Lansdowne Estate Evicted Tenant.
    MR. P. MEEHAN: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether his attention has been directed to the fact that Mrs. Rose Dunne and her son William Dunne, representatives of the late Michael Dunne, an evicted tenant on the Lansdowne estate, Queen's County, have made application for reinstatement to the Estates Commissioners; whether he is aware that these people sacrificed a great deal in the land war, and that they are most suited to work land; and whether the Estates Commissioners will allot them a holding, equivalent to the farm of sixty-two acres formerly held by Michael Dunne, when distributing land on the Cooper Hill estate about to be acquired by the Estates Commissioners.
    MR. BIRRELL: The Estates Commissioners will consider this application in connection with the allotment of such untenanted land as they may acquire.

    Proceedings against Irish Newspaper Proprietors.
    MR. LONSDALE: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether any proceedings have yet been instituted against proprietors of newspapers who have disregarded the warning against publishing intimidatory resolutions passed by branches of the United Irish League.
    MR. BIRRELL: Proceedings have been instituted against the proprietor of the Longford Leader in respect of the publication of certain resolutions in that newspaper.

    Newpallas (Limerick) Evicted Tenants.
    MR. LUNDON: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland is he aware that John Harty and Timothy Burke, both residing near Newpallas, in the County of Limerick, were several years since evicted from their farms on the property of the Erasmus Smith's Schools; is he aware that Lane, the planter on John Harry's farm, sent a friend to Harty
    2146
    requesting an interview, and said he was quite willing to leave the farm on behalf of Harty if he got any fair compensation, and that Griffin, the planter on Burke's farm, is willing to do the same on similar conditions; and will he take steps to arrange with those planters through the Estates Commissioners so as to restore Harty and Burke to their farms.
    MR. BIRRELL: The applications of the two men referred to are, with others, now in the hands of one of the Estates Commissioners' inspectors.

    Warden Estate, Sneem.
    MR. BOLAND: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he can now state what steps, if any, have been taken by the Estates Commissioners to deal with the townlands which were excluded, contrary to the wishes of the tenants, from the sale of the Warden estate, near Sneem, County Kerry.
    MR. BIRRELL: If the owner institutes proceedings for the sale of these lands the Estates Commissioners will deal with them, but up to the present he has not done so.

    Cork Labour Dispute.
    MR. SUMMERBELL: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that, in connection with a strike proceeding at the works of Sir Alfred Dobbin, Cork, peaceful pickets have been molested by the police and have been warned by a detective inspector that they were acting illegally; whether he is aware that several of the workmen concerned have been summoned under the Conspiracy Act, 1875; and whether he will take steps to ensure that these workmen are allowed the benefit of the Trade Disputes Act.
    MR. BIRRELL: I am informed that it is not correct to say that there is a strike at the works of Sir Alfred Dobbin or at those of the firm of Dobbin, Ogilvie

    2147
    and Company, of which he is a director. The firm dismissed two men last month for refusing to deliver goods to the Cork Steam Packet Company, whose men were on strike. After the strike was over Sir Alfred Dobbin was asked to take back the two men, but declined to do so. A handbill was then circulated advocating the boycotting of the Palace Theatre of which Sir Alfred Dobbin is also a director, and pickets have since been posted nightly outside the theatre who take down the names of people entering. There is no strike at the theatre. Several persons have been summoned by the police under the Conspiracy and Protection of Property Act, 1875, in connection with this picketing, and the cases are now sub judice. Every precaution is being taken to ensure that the workmen of Cork shall have the full benefit of the Trade Disputes Act.

    Waterville River Weir, County Kerry.
    MR. BOLAND: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that the Waterville River weir, Lough Currane, County Kerry, has been lifted during the week ending 12th December, thereby allowing a free pass to salmon; and whether, in view of the improved prospects secured thereby for the next fishing season, he will arrange that the weir will not be put down again during the rest of the present close season, nor in any other year during the close season.
    MR. BIRRELL: The Answer to the first part of the Question is in the affirmative. I am informed by the Department of Agriculture and Technical Instruction that the weir will not be fished again during the present close season, as it is not further required for hatchery purposes. No undertaking can be given as to future years.

    Louth Untenanted Lands.
    MR. NOLAN: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether his attention has been called to a resolution passed by the Louth County Council, on the 5th instant, protesting against a scheme on the part of the Estates
    2148
    Commissioners to place several planters from other parts of Ireland upon certain untenanted lands recently purchased from Lord Rathdonnell at Willistown and Mullinscross, in the County of Louth, and whether, in view of the reasons-urged against any such scheme by the mover and seconder of the Resolution he can see his way to inviting the Estates-Commissioners to reconsider their decision.
    MR. BIRRELL: The resolution has been received by the Estates Commissioners, and will be considered by them when making arrangements for the allotment of the lands in question.

    Evicted Tenants Unprovided for.
    MR. GINNELL: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland how many evicted tenants, including representatives of deceased evicted tenants, in Ireland, whose claims the Estates Commissioners recognise to be valid under the Land Act of 1903, and the Evicted Tenants Act, remain unprovided with holdings old or new.
    MR. BIRRELL: The Estates Commissioners have noted the names of 1,649 evicted tenants or representatives of evicted tenants as suitable persons to be provided with holdings. The Commissioners propose to provide for the greater portion of these persons on lands in respect of which proceedings are now pending under the Irish Land Act, 1903 and the Evicted Tenants Act, 1907.

    Land Purchase and Intimidation.
    MR. BARRIE: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland if he will state in how many cases in 1906 and 1907 did the Estates Commissioners determine that the applications under the Land Purchase Act, 1903, should be postponed owing to the prevalence of intimidation on the particular estate; and in how many, if any, of such cases was their determination overruled by the Irish Government.
    MR. BIRRELL: The Estates Commissioners did not postpone any cases in 1906 or 1907 on the grounds mentioned, but in one case they withdrew from the purchase of untenanted lands which were the subject of local interference.

    Kilworth Military Barracks.
    MR. WILLIAM ABRAHAM: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether, seeing that the military barracks situated in the demesne of Moorpark, Kilworth, have been destroyed by fire, the Estates Commissioners would consider the feasibility of the acquisition by purchase from the War Office of the demesne lands, comprising 1,000 acres or more of good land, which could be made available for the purposes of the Estates Commissioners in providing for the enlargement and improvement of the holdings of tenants in the neighbourhood, portions of whose holdings have been taken for military purposes, and for the provision of holdings for evicted tenants and others; and whether an inquiry will be made into this matter.
    MR. BIRRELL: The Estates Commissioners have no knowledge of the property referred to, but if it is offered to them for sale they will consider whether it is desirable to purchase it.
    MR. WILLIAM ABRAHAM: Will the Estates Commissioners take the initiative in the matter?
    MR. BIRRELL: I have no doubt when their attention is called to it they will consider what can be done.

    Scottish Statute Law Revision.
    MR. DUNDAS WHITE: I beg to ask the Prime Minister, in view of the Statute Law Revision (Scotland) Act, 1906, if he can say when the edition of the Pre-Union Scots Statutes (Revised) will be published.
    MR. ASQUITH: I am informed that the Scots (?) Statutes (Revised), from
    2150
    1424–1707, were published last May, and that the volume can be obtained from the Stationery Office on payment of 10s.
    MR. DUNDAS WHITE: Can the right hon. Gentleman say if a copy will be placed in the Library of the House?
    MR. ASQUITH: I think so.

    Education Grant and the Budget.
    MR. CLOUGH: I beg to ask the Prime Minister whether, following the precedents of the Old-Age Pension Act and Budget, 1908, he can see his way to deal by a separate Bill to the Budget in 1909 with the £13,500,000 allocated to elementary education, so as to constitute the teachers of the elementary schools a branch of the Civil Service free from the imposition of all ecclesiastical tests, and so as to provide that the whole of these moneys shall only be expended upon those elementary schools that are completely controlled by popularly elected education authorities.
    MR. ASQUITH: I am afraid that I am not at present in a position to give any indication as to the policy which His Majesty's Government will pursue in regard to the question raised by my hon. friend.

    Workrooms for Unemployed Women.
    MR. RAMSAY MACDONALD: I beg to ask the Prime Minister whether he has, in answer to a communication, from the Women's Labour League, informed that body that the women's workrooms, conducted by the Central (Unemployed) Body for London, are now finding it impossible to dispose of the goods made in them; whether, before making the statement, he ascertained the impediments placed by the Local Government Board in the way of these workrooms trying to dispose of their goods; whether he is aware of the correspondence that has been going on during the summer between the workrooms' committee and the President of the

    2151
    Local Government Board, complaining of the action of that Board in declining to give any indication as to what they might or might not do to dispose of their products; and whether, in view of the statement made by him that the Unemployed Workmen Act was this winter to be administered with more sympathy and elasticity, and to the fact that numbers of women have been registered in London for whom no assistance has been forthcoming, he will reconsider his decision not to encourage any extension in the workroom scheme now carried on in London.
    MR. ASQUITH: Yes, Sir, I have seen the correspondence to which the hon. Member refers, and I am not prepared to admit that the Local Government Board (without whose assistance the workrooms could not have been carried on) have unduly hampered the management of these workrooms by any indication or lack of indication of the policy to be pursued in disposing of their productions. I may add that there is no question of the discontinuance of these workrooms, and that a larger percentage of the registered and approved cases of unemployed women have been afforded work than in the case of the men who come within the same category.

    Distress through Unemployment.
    MR. KEIR HARDIE: I beg to ask the Prime Minister whether grants from the central fund for the relief of distress due to unemployment will be made to localities in which no distress committees can be set up under the Act of 1905.
    MR. ASQUITH: The Unemployed Workmen's Act provides that grants shall only be made to distress committees. I understand from my right hon. friend that applications for the formation of such committees are being sympathetically considered, and that he has recently sanctioned the creation of several new committees. The whole question of the most efficient and elastic machinery for the administration of relief to distress is one to which I am giving my best attention.
    MR. KEIR HARDIE: But is not the real point of the question as to whether some method is not advisable to enable grants to be given in places where no distress committees can be set up?
    MR. ARQUITH: That is why I added the last sentence to my Answer.

    Small Holdings.
    MR. MORRELL: I beg to ask the Prime Minister whether he is able to make any further statement as to the failure of the Small Holdings Commissioners to make Reports to the Board of Agriculture under Section 2 (3) of the Small Holdings Act; whether he is aware that the duty for making Reports arises immediately upon the Commissioners having ascertained in any locality the existence of a demand, and is not contingent upon any default by a county council, which can, in fact, only occur at least six months after a Report has been forwarded by the Board to the council under Section 3 (1) of the Act; and whether he will see that these statutory duties, which have hitherto been entirely disregarded, are now carried out according to their plain meaning by the Commissioners and the Board.
    MR. ASQUITH: I have this matter under consideration, but at the moment I am unable to add anything to the Answer I gave to my hon. friend the other day.

    Hops Bill.
    MR. LAURENCE HARDY: I beg to ask the Prime Minister whether, in view of the entire absence of opposition to the Hops Bill, except from a few of his own supporters, he will give the House an opportunity of discussing the Bill in Committee, as it is non-contentious from a Party point of view.
    MR. LEIF JONES: May I ask whether the opponents of this Bill are not to be found in every quarter of the House, and, therefore, it cannot properly be described as non-controversial?
    MR. COURTHOPE: I beg to ask the Prime Minister whether his attention has been called to the fact that all the Amendments to the Hops Bill upon the Order Paper stand in the names of his own supporters; whether, in view of this fact, he will proceed with the Bill; and, if not, what steps he proposes to take to carry out the pledges given in July last to a deputation of hop-growers by Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer and the President of the Board of Trade.
    MR. ASQUITH: I have nothing to add to the statement I made yesterday in Answer to similar Questions. In view of the Amendments on the Paper the Hops Bill cannot be regarded as coming within the category of measures which there is any likelihood of passing into law.
    MR. LAURENCE HARDY: Does the right hon. Gentleman intend that the opposition of a few of his supporters shall prevent this House remedying an admitted grievance? Will he undertake to take the first stages of this Bill at an early period next session?
    MR. ASQUITH: The Question of the hon. Gentleman does not actually represent the situation. It is not a question whether the Hops Bill is right or wrong, but whether it has universal assent in all quarters of the House. I am satisfied it has not. With regard to next session, I cannot give any pledge.
    MR. COURTHOPE: Will the right hon. Gentleman reply to the last part of my Question?
    MR. ASQUITH: We have taken all the steps we can.

    The Suspension of Members.
    MR. BELLOCasked the Prime Minister whether he would afford any facilities for a Motion for the re-admission to the House of the hon. Member for Colne Valley, in view of the fact that the procedure on the question of the suspension
    2154
    of Members was now in a state of ambiguity and confusion.
    MR. ASQUITH: I do not think at this period of the session, when the business of the House is so nearly finished, that there would be any advantage in giving facilities to a Motion to re-admit the hon. Member for Colne Valley. If earlier representations had been made that there was a desire that the House should express an opinion on the matter, I should have been glad to give an opportunity.
    MR. BELLOC: Is not the right hon. Gentleman aware of the fact that the Question was put down late because if it had been put down earlier it would have taken a partisan character? My object is to raise the general question of the position of Members who have been suspended and to prevent a precedent being laid down.
    MR. ASQUITH: Quite so. I quite recognise the object of the hon. Member. The rule, unfortunately, is in a very chaotic state, and it is high time the House did something to fill up the gaps in the Rules of Procedure.

    Proceedings against Mr. Farrell, M.P.
    SIR C. SCHWANNhaving asked the Under-Secretary of State for India whether he could make any statement with reference to the proposed reform of administration in India—
    MR. JOHN O'CONNORsaid he desired to ask the Attorney-General for Ireland a Question, of which he had given private notice, concerning the prosecution in Dublin of an Irish Nationalist Member.
    MR. SPEAKER: Notice should be given.
    MR. JOHN O'CONNOR: I have given private notice to the right hon. Gentleman.
    MR. SPEAKER: But not to myself in accordance with Standing Order? I call on Mr. Buchanan.
    MR. JOHN O'CONNOR: I rise to a point of order. I beg to ask under what rule the Under-Secretary is making his statement.
    MR. SPEAKER: It is by general leave of the House. The circumstances are, of course, exceptional, and it is only by pleading such circumstances that the hon. Member can make his statement.
    MR. JOHN O'CONNOR: The leave of the House has not been asked. When I asked my Question concerning the liberty of a Member of the House, you, Sir, ruled me out of order.
    MR. SPEAKER: This question concerns the liberties of 250,000,000 people.
    MR. KEIR HARDIE: Is it not a fact that the Prime Minister's announcement yesterday that this statement would be made met with the general consent of the House?
    MR. JOHN O'CONNOR: It is not on the Order Paper, according to the Rules of the House. I am surprised that the liberty of an Irish Member is not considered by hon. Members to be worth anything at all.

REFORMS IN INDIA.
SIR C. SCHWANNasked the Under-Secretary for India whether he was now in a position to make a statement with reference to the proposed reforms in Indian administration.
THE UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR INDIA (Mr. BUCHANAN,): The proposals of which I shall give a summary have been delayed much longer than we anticipated, and no one regrets that delay
2156
more than the Secretary of State. But it has this justification. He was anxious, and rightly anxious, to draw information and suggestions from the widest possible area of opinion, official and non-official, corporate and individual, British and Indian, in all grades and from all classes in India. The Blue-books will show that he has not failed in that duty. He thought that wide consultation of opinion was the best and surest means of securing, as he trusts he will secure for his proposals, the general consent and the hearty co-operation of all sections of the community. I want also clearly and emphatically to state that the Viceroy and Government of India are entirely with us, and no one could have been more actively helpful all through than Lord Minto. He it was who, more than two years ago, initiated these constitutional reforms, and it is largely due to his patience and persistence, to his tact and liberal-mindedness, that they have been brought into a final and finished form Hon. Members are aware that ever since the Government of India was taken over by the Crown fifty years ago, our aim has been gradually to associate the Indians in various ways and in varying degrees in the administration and government of the country. At present I want to deal, not with the past, but the future, and I would only say that just as the Indian Councils Act of 1861 marked the first stage on the Statute-book, and as that was followed by another Councils Act in 1892, so I hope that the Bill of 1909 when it becomes an Act will make a further and a real advance towards representative Government. Now, on touching upon the various topics, I think I may presume that hon. Members will bear in their minds the suggestions contained in the White Paper of a year ago. First of all, as to the Advisory Councils. It is not proposed to establish Advisory Councils, either Imperial or Provincial. The functions to be exercised by them will be better discharged, in our judgment, by the enlarged Legislative Councils. This, of course, does not imply any abandonment of the present useful practice of the authorities in provinces and districts informally consulting leading men on matters of public importance. I come

2157
now to the Legislative Councils, Imperial and Provincial. First, the alteration of their constitution, and secondly, the enlargement of their powers. The enlargement of these Councils, and the extension of their functions to the discussion of administrative questions, "are," say the Government of India, "the widest, most deep-reaching and most substantial features of the scheme now put forward." I will begin with the Provincial Councils. There is a general increase in numbers all round. I will not trouble the House with figures which will be in their possession in an hour. But the normal figure for the four large provinces will be (excluding the Governor or Lieutenant-Governor) forty-six, as compared with twenty-three, and smaller numbers for the three lesser provinces, namely, for Eastern Bengal and Assam, thirty-six; Punjab, twenty-four; Burma, sixteen. The members are divided into "official" and "non-official" members. In Madras, for instance, at present there are twelve official and eleven non-official members. I exclude the Governor in all cases. In Bombay the constitution is the same, but the existing Council works, and works well, with ten official and fourteen non-official members. We have determined to dispense with the necessity of maintaining an official majority on the Provincial Councils. This would give greater reality to the debates and the business of these assemblies. And if there are those who may be doubtful as to possible risks, I would remind them that the legislative powers of Provincial Councils are by law restricted to a limited field, and there is in reserve both the veto of the Governor and the general legislative powers of the Viceroy's Council. There will still be, as at present, non-official members nominated to represent special interests or minorities, or experts. The corporations of the Presidency towns, the Universities, and the chambers of commerce will return representatives. We intend to secure a representation of the landholding class, the Mahomedans, the planting community in certain provinces, and there will be a large increase in the number of members elected to the Councils by the municipalities and district boards. In Bengal there are now three members so elected, in the future
2158
there will be eight. In the United Provinces the increase will be from four to ten, and in Bombay from three to eight. The numbers on the Viceroy's Legislative Council will also be increased from twenty-four to sixty-two, excluding the Viceroy in both cases. But here we shall maintain a permanent official majority. We shall largely increase, from four to twelve, the elected representatives on the Viceroy's Council from the Provincial Legislative Councils: we shall endeavour to provide special representation of landholders and Mahomedans from various provinces, and we shall increase the representation of chambers of commerce and the Indian commercial community. These are dry figures, which will be more easily understood from the Papers, and with regard to which there are certain details not yet worked out. There are, as hon. Members are aware who have studied the question, difficulties in the method of obtaining representation of communities like the Mahomedans or landholders. We want to minimise nomination as much as possible, and we want to avoid creating special electorates if we can. Anyhow, we have made suggestions to the Government of India to the effect that it might be possible to devise a system of electoral colleges by which in the more advanced provinces the Mahomedans, landholders and other special communities might obtain their representation on the Councils in proportion to their numbers and importance without the creation of special electorates. We have not yet received the views of the Government of India on this subject and its practicability. But hon. Members will clearly see what our aim is. We recognise that there are special communities and interests which should and must get representation on the Councils. They would not obtain it if we were to introduce there our home electoral system. We want to secure it for them in the least invidious way, and the way most acceptable to themselves. Next, as regards the enlargement of the power of these Councils, both Provincial and Imperial. At present questions are allowed, and there are many put, on notice given, and the Budget is discussed annually after it has been finally approved by the superior authority. But there is no other material for discussion save the actual legislative

2159
measures from time to time laid before the Councils. Opinion is unanimous that the facilities for debate should now be extended. It is accordingly proposed that discussion of general administrative questions should be permitted upon resolutions which may be moved and divided upon by any unofficial member, such resolutions to take the form of recommendations to Government, and to have only such force and effect as Government, after consideration, shall deem due to them. Supplementary questions will be allowed. And the manner of presenting the Budget will be entirely recast, so as to permit of its consideration by the Imperial Legislative Council resolved into Committee—or by Standing Committees of the Provincial Legislative Councils—and the moving of recommendations to Government before its form is finally fixed by the Executive Government. It is difficult to summarise this part of our proposal, but hon. Members will find that that which I have endeavoured to summarise is set out in full detail in the despatch of the Government of India. It is all explained there, and the provisions apply both to Provincial Councils and the Viceroy's Council. It would be an incomplete work, however, if we did not go lower down in the scale of administration and government than the Provincial Councils. We want to make an effective advance in the direction of local self-government, and to do something to vivify and make popular the constitution and functions of the local and district boards, and other minor boards in the country. We look for detailed assistance in this matter from the Report of the Decentralisation Commission shortly to be issued. The object that we have in view is to train the people of the towns and districts of British India to manage their own local affairs intelligently and successfully; and in our opinion the control of Government in this department of administration should be exercised from without rather than from within. The Government should revise and check the acts of the local bodies, and not dictate them. The cardinal principles of this branch of reform are laid down in a celebrated Resolution of Lord Ripon's Government of India in 1882, which we shall endeavour to
2160
see effectively carried out. With regard to Executive Councils I have still a word to say. Hon. Members know that Madras and Bombay alone of the provinces possess Executive Councils. The work of Lieutenant Governors of the other large provinces has largely increased, and we believe it might lead to greater efficiency if in certain cases they were assisted by Executive Councils. We do not intend immediately to give every Lieutenant-Governor an Executive Council, but we propose to take Parliamentary powers for the purpose at once. We also propose to add to the numbers of the Executive Councils in Madras and Bombay either one or two additional members, and one of these we think should in practice be an Indian. We do not alter the constitution of the Viceroy's Executive Council, and the House is aware that the Secretary of State has power at present of recommending at any time to the King the appointment of an Indian, if qualified, to be a member of that body. Some of the proposals that I have adumbrated can be brought into operation at once, some will need legislation in India, and some will need legislation here. A Bill, as hon. Members know, will be introduced in Parliament early next session. The proposals are a real step forward, and go a long way to meet in Lord Minto's words "the political aspirations of honest reformers." They are intended to associate a much larger body of Indians in the work of government, to throw greater responsibility upon them, both in the higher and in the lower ranges of government, to maintain British supremacy clear and unchallenged at the top, but to endeavour to secure that under our guiding, directing, and restraining hand, that the Indians shall learn the work of administration and government in the only school worth anything, the school of experience. I would make an appeal to hon. Members of all parties, to men of good will, outside and inside the House, British and Indian. It is, it may be, a supreme moment, I hope a golden moment, in the relations between this country and India. Let these reforms have a chance, a fair chance in India. Every detail may not please every individual. Let them go forth from this House as the spontaneous

2161
and ungrudging offer of the British nation to the peoples of India. There is a fine saying of Milton's—
"Let England never forget her precedence of teaching nations how to live."
We are here face to face with the greatest and most difficult problem of government that can try the capacity of our race. With a good heart, with a clear head, with a right mind, with quiet courage we shall not fail.

NEW BILL.
  THEATRES BILL.
  "To abolish the powers of the Lord Chamberlain in respect of stage plays and to transfer to the local authority the powers of the Lord Chamberlain in respect of the licensing of theatres in London," presented by Mr. Robert Harcourt; supported by Mr. Alfred Mason, Mr. Ponsonby, Sir Gilbert Parker, Mr. T. P. O'Connor, and Mr. Ramsay Macdonald; to be read a second time tomorrow, and to be printed. [Bill 411.]
  STATUTE LAW REVISION BILL [LOEDS].
  Read the third time, and passed, without Amendment.

  CONSTABULARY (IRELAND) BILL.
  Order for Third Reading read.
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read the third time."
  MR. BARRIEthought he was only doing his duty when he said that, in his opinion, this was a measure which fell very short indeed of that generous treatment, long overdue, to which the Constabulary were entitled. The wages of the Constabulary in Ireland had not been improved since 1883, and now in the expiring days of the session a measure had been rushed through the House which proposed to improve the
  2162
  position of only a portion of the force. Constables of seven years service got no increase, those between nine and eleven got nothing, those between twelve and thirteen got nothing, and all those of from twenty to twenty-five years service were left with a slight increase of 1s. a week, and yet they were told that the total increase was £15,000 per annum to the Treasury. The claim of the constables was admitted by the Chief Secretary who said that if they were met it would mean a further burden of £4,000 a year. He expressed his regret that in increasing the wages these important sections of the force had been left without the slightest alteration. He complained that under the Act of 1883 constables who were entitled to have a pension after twenty-five years service had another five years added to that term. Many might say that twenty-five years service was too short to entitle a man to retire on a full pension, but they had to remember that men enlisted upon that understanding, and it ought to be fully carried out. He realised that at this period of the session it was hopeless to discuss Amendments which would alter this state of things. There was no provision in the Bill to ensure promotion to constables with special talent. They had been promised that this provision should appear in the Bill and they regretted that it was not contained in the measure. He regretted that merit did not receive its proper reward. Other constabulary forces within the last twenty years had not only had their wages increased more than 1s. a week but there was an increasing tendency to make it more possible for constables to get promotion. The Bill in its present form was not likely to allay the feeling in the Force, and he feared that the result would make the condition of affairs generally more unsatisfactory.
  MR. C. E. PRICElooked with extreme regret upon the increased cost which was placed upon this country for the maintenance of the constabulary in Ireland, which was the most extravagant constabulary in the world. He regretted that the increased cost was not provided for by some reorganisation of the superior

  2163
  grades. The Member for Newry gave some extraordinary figures the other night as to the number of superior officers and the small number of men. He much regretted, therefore, that while improving the status of the rank and file, the Government did not reorganise the superior grades and obtain from that source the money required for the improvements in the position of the men. He also regretted that a complete change had not been made in the constabulary of Ireland. It was a force to which there was nothing analogous in this country, and he thought the sooner it was put under the control of the local authorities the better. From his own experience he knew that one could not stir a yard in Ireland without being shadowed by a policeman. While he was glad that the pay of these men should be increased still he regretted it was at the cost of this country.
  Bill read the third time, and passed.

  POISONS AND PHARMACY BILL [LORDS].
  As amended (in the Standing Committee), considered.
  SIR W. J. COLLINS*SIR W. J. COLLINS (St. Pancras. W.) moved an Amendment which he said would bring in a large and worthy section of dispensers, who, if the qualified military dispensers were included in this clause, ought, not to be excluded. They had passed an examination not less severe, and in recent legislation these persons had been included. They would be only eligible for registration on certain Conditions, therefore, he hoped the Amendment would be accepted. He believed there was no objection to it.
  Amendment proposed—
  "In page 4, line 28, after the word 'dispensers,' to insert the words 'or of certified dispensers.'"—(Sir W. J. Collins.)
  Agreed to.
  Amendment proposed—
  "In page 5, line 37, to leave out the word January, and to insert the word 'April.'"—(Mr. Herbert Samuel.)
  Agreed to. Bill read the third time, and passed, with Amendments.

  APPELLATE JURIS DICTION BILL [LORDS].
  As amended, considered; read the third time, and passed, with Amendments.

  COMMONS BILL [LORDS].
  Considered in Committee, and reported without Amendment.
  King's Consent and Prince of Wales' Assent signified.
  Bill read the third time, and passed, without Amendment.

  EDUCATION (SCOTLAND) BILL.
  Lords Amendments considered, and agreed to. [Special Entry.]
  PREVENTION OF CRIME BILL.
  Lords Amendments considered, and agreed to.

  LAW OF DISTRESS AMENDMENT BILL.
  Lords Amendments considered.
  Lords Amendment—
  "In pages 1 and 2, to leave out Clauses 1 and 2, and to insert new clauses: (a) Under-tenant or lodger, if distress levied, to make declaration that immediate tenant has no property in goods distrained; (b) penalty; (c) payments by under-tenant or lodger to superior landlord; (d) exclusion of certain goods; (e) exclusion of certain under-tenants; (f) to avoid distress; (g) commencement of Act; (h) repeal of 34 & 35 Viet., c. 79; (i) definitions; (k) Act not to extend to Scotland."
  Read a second time.
  MR. COURTHOPEon a point of order called attention to the fact that with the exception to the short title clause this was an entirely new Bill. He submitted that it would create a very dangerous precedent for

  2165
  this House to pass an entirely new Bill sent down from another place. This Bill, which came down from another House, was a Bill of ten clauses, the Bill which was sent to another House was one of two clauses.
  MR. SPEAKER: I have taken the best advice that I have been able to obtain, and I am informed that the substance of the two Bills is identically the same. The method of drafting is wholly different, but I understand it is in order to avoid the system of legislation by reference that the drafting has been altered. The clauses which the Lords desire to have passed, and have sent down to this House in the form of Amendments, are all covered by the principle of the Bill, and could have stood in the Bill at the time of the Second Reading. Therefore, I think it is possible to consider it.
  SIR F. BANBURYsaid he moved on behalf of his hon. and learned friend the Member for Kingston to leave out the word "material" in the new Clause A. He did not think it was desirable that the House should legislate that a person could make a declaration which he knew to be untrue and not be subject to a penalty. It was better to leave out the word "material"; therefore, he trusted that the hon. Gentleman in charge of the Bill would accept this small Amendment. He moved.
  Amendment proposed to the Lords' Amendment—
  "In Clause A, line 36, to leave out the word 'material.'"—(Sir F. Banhury.)
  Question proposed, "That the word 'material' stand part of the Lords' Amendment."
  MR. HERBERTsaid he had so much confidence in the acumen of his hon. and learned friend that he had taken the opportunity of consulting him upon this point. He might say that this was not a word that was now being enacted for the first time. It was a
  2166
  word which had stood in the principal Act, in reference to which they were now legislating, and had stood the test for forty years. No question had arisen about it, and as it had stood the test for so long, he thought it had better be retained.
  Amendment negatived.
  Amendment proposed to the Lords' Amendment—
  "In Clause 3, line 8, after the word 'aforesaid,' to insert the words 'comprised in such inventory.'"—(Sir F. Banbury.)
  Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."
  MR. HERBERTsaid precisely the same objection applied to this. It was the wording of the principal Statute, and it was not desirable to alter it.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  SIR F. BANBURY SIR F. BANBURY moved an Amendment to the new Clause E which he said seemed to be necessary because the object of the Bill was to include lodgers who were not mentioned in the clause.
  Amendment proposed to the Lords' Amendment—
  "In Clause E, line 1, after the word 'under-tenant' to insert the words 'or lodger.'"—(Sir F. Banbury.)
  Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."
  MR. HERBERTsaid it was not possible to accept this because the effect would be to cut down rights which lodgers already possesed. He had discussed this with his hon. and learned friend, and he had not intended to move it. The House of Lords had been very careful not to cut down those rights.
  Amendment negatived.
  MR. COURTHOPEsaid it was evident to anyone who had looked into the matter that not only the last four lines

  2167
  which he proposed to leave out, made the clause itself very clumsy, but they would be quite impossible to carry out. The first three lines were all that was necessary to cover the inclusion of certain under-tenants which the clause dealt with.
  Amendment proposed to the Lords' Amendment—
  "In Clause E, line 1, to leave out from the word 'tenant,' to end of clause."—(Mr. Courthope.)
  Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the clause."
  MR. HERBERTsaid he should like to accept the Amendment. He thought it was generally agreed that the words proposed to be left out would give rise to a great deal of litigation, and make it really unworkable, and it would be a great improvement if the words were left out.
  Amendment agreed to.
  Lords' Amendment amended in Clause F, line 4, by leaving out the words "whether by name or not."—(Mr. Sydney Buxton.)
  MR. COURTHOPEsaid it must be evident to everyone that it was undesirable to bring the Act into operation about ten days from the time of its passage, and it would be more convenient in that way that some months should elapse after it was possible for the Act to reach the hands of those who would be affected by it for them to consider its terms.
  Lords' Amendment, amended in Clause G, line 2, by leaving out the word "January," and inserting the word "July."—(Mr. Courthope.)
  Lords' Amendment, as amended, agreed to.
  Remaining Lords' Amendments agreed to.

  PUBLIC MEETING BILL.
  Considered in Committee.
  (In the Committee.)
  [Mr. EMMOTT (Oldham) in the Chair.]
  Clause 1:
  MR. RADFORDconceived it to be possible, though unlikely, that disorderly conduct at public meetings might spring from women as well as men. He did not press the Amendment on the noble Lord if he thought it was unnecessary. He knew it might be said that under the Interpretation Act a person might be said to include a person of either sex. On the other hand the House of Lords had recently been employed in considering whether "persons" included women, and he suggested for greater clearness that it was desirable that those words should be there inserted.
  Amendment proposed—
  "In page 1, line 5, after the word 'person,' to insert the words 'of either sex.'"—(Mr. Radford.)
  Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."
  LORD R. CECILtrusted the Committee would not accept he words. It was perfectly clear that "persons" did include both men and women, and to put in these words, which he could not think would be found in any Act of Parliament would merely lead to confusion and possibly some miscarriage of justice which they could not at present foresee. These were the ordinary words in Statutes dealing with any criminal offence, and it would be a pity to depart from ordinary usage. Unquestionably the Bill was directed to both men and women, and would be so construed, he had no doubt.
  THE ATTORNEY-GENERAL (Sir W. ROBSON,)said there were cases in which the word "person" had had to be construed in the Courts, but they were cases concerned with the exercise of public functions.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  MR. RADFORDsaid the Bill was only introduced, he believed, on the 10th instant, and they had had it before them a week. Very little was known about it there or in the country, and as they were introducing an important change and creating new pains and penalties, some time should be given in order that His Majesty's subjects might become acquainted with the new law. Disorderly conduct at public meetings was practised in many parts of the country, and had been from immemorial times. It was a form of sport which was as well recognised as football. He was not prepared to say without a moment's notice that a man should be fined or imprisoned for doing that which they and their forefathers had done for generations. That being so, while he did not say a word in favour of disorderly conduct in public meetings, he thought it would be wise and discreet on the part of the noble Lord to accept this Amendment, so that persons concerned might know that a new offence for which they might be fined and imprisoned would come in force in twelve months time, and meanwhile that practice might go on.
  Amendment proposed—
  "In page 1, line 5, after the word 'meeting,' to insert the words 'held after the 31st day of December, 1909.'"—(Mr. Radford.)
  Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."
  LORD R. CECILsaid he quite sympathised with what the hon. Member said, but he trusted he would not press the Amendment. If the House was of opinion, and he thought it was, that the practice was against the liberty of the subject, properly understood, that it was one of the rights of the subject to hold public meetings and an essential part of our constitutional practice, and that this Bill was intended to secure that right and not to infringe any real liberty, it was not desirable that the practice of breaking up public meetings, however long-established, should go on for another twelve mouths. The possible danger of hardship was really not very great. The penalty was only £5—after all, not a very severe penalty—or a month's
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  imprisonment, and he did not think it was at all probable that any Summary Jurisdiction Court would be at all over severe in dealing with the matter. Where the prisoners said they were not aware of the Act, and were not evilly-disposed persons, and nothing was known against their character, the probability was that they would be let off with a caution the first time and very likely the second. He really thought they need not be afraid that the penalty would be unduly enforced. It was very desirable that the Bill should not be amended on this occasion. He trusted that the hon. Gentleman who had expressed himself as a well-wisher of the Bill would not insist on the Amendment.
  Amendment negatived.
  Clause agreed to.
  Bill reported without Amendments.
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read a third time."—(Lord Robert Cecil.)
  THE PRIME MINISTER AND FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY (Mr. ASQUITH,)congratulated the noble Lord upon his achievement in legislation. He pointed out how easy it was to pass a private Member's Bill when there was general concurrence in its object.
  Question put, and agreed to.
  Bill read the third time, and passed.

  HOPS BILL.
  MR. J. A. PEASE MR. J. A. PEASE (Essex, Saffron Walden) moved that the order for going into Committee on this Bill be read and discharged, and the Bill withdrawn.
  MR. COURTHOPEsaid he should like to make an energetic protest against this proceeding on the part of the Government. [MINISTERIAL laughter.] It was all very well for hon. Members to laugh, but possibly occasions might arise in the future

  2171
  when they would be in a similar position, and when a Bill which they valued might be recklessly destroyed in this way. He thought he was justified in accusing His Majesty's Ministers of breach of faith in this matter. [MINISTERIAL cries of "No."] Yes, breach of faith. There was a definite pledge given so recently as July last by the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the President of the Board of Trade to a deputation of hop-growers that not only would the Bill be introduced, but that every effort would be made to place it on the Statutebook, and the only qualification that was made was that there should not be violent opposition from the Opposition side of the House. The opposition had come entirely from the supporters of the Government, and he thought he and his friends were justified in accusing the Government of a breach of faith in withdrawing the Bill merely owing to the ridiculous opposition—[MINISTERIAL cries of "Oh!"] He would substantiate that word—the ridiculous opposition of a small section of their own supporters who smelt protection in everything. He should like to ask those hon. Gentlemen—or some of them at all events—who supported the Miners' Eight Hours Bill, how they could justify their support of that measure if they saw protection in the Hops Bill. Surely the same arguments would hold good in both cases. He did not wish it to be understood from the protest he was offering now that the Hops Bill was everything which the hop growers desired. It was not. A drowning man, if he could not reach a lifebuoy, would grasp at a straw. The hop growers had not received fair treatment from the Government, but they were willing to substitute the straw. He felt that he could not allow the Bill to be withdrawn without making a vigorous protest about this latest failure on the part of the Government. Speaking at the National Liberal Club last week, the Prime Minister said they were met to celebrate a failure. He fancied that the hop growers would celebrate this failure in a striking fashion when the opportunity occurred. The seats of the hon. Members for Faversham and Tonbridge had simply been given away by the right hon. Gentleman. [Laughter.] The Prime
  2172
  Minister laughed, but he would find that that was so when the time came. This would not be forgotten by those who were dependent upon this struggling industry. He thought the Members of the Liberal Party held themselves up as the laughing stock of the country when they talked about the action of the other House. They were not able to rule in the other House, but they had shown that they were not able to carry a Government Bill in this House.
  MR. ASQUITHwas sorry the hon. Member had allowed himself to use such language. His charge of breach of faith was absolutely unfounded; the Government had carried out their undertaking in letter and spirit. They introduced the Bill and tried to get it through, but he said most distinctly that unless it were treated as non-contentious it would be absolutely impossible to pass it. Now there were five pages of Amendments—
  MR. COURTHOPE: From that side of the House.
  MR. ASQUITHsaid it was no matter where they came from; he said it could only pass if accepted in all quarters as a non-contentious measure. He did not agree that it was a protectionist Bill, but some of his friends did, and he was not in a position to dislodge that conviction from their minds, and still less to treat their opposition as ridiculous. It was an opinion they were entitled to hold and, it being held by so large a number of Members, he being responsible for the conduct of business, found it impossible that the Bill could pass.
  SIR F. BANBURYagreed that it was clearly understood from the Prime Minister that he would only proceed with the Bill if it proved to be non-contentious. Of course, it did not matter from which side the opposition came.
  MR. HAROLD COXsaid many hon. Members opposite welcomed the Bill as a first step towards tariff reform. [Cries of "Name."] He would

  2173
  not mention names, but the tariff reform Press had certainly welcomed the Bill as the first step towards tariff reform. They might be right or wrong, but if it was in accordance with free trade let the Bill be fully debated. In the circumstances the Government were fully justified in dropping the Bill.
  SIR W. J. COLLINS (St. Pancras, W.)regretted the language of the hon. Member for Rye, who was a useful member of the Committee. The Government had in no way been guilty of a breach of faith in the unfortunate action they had asked the House to take. The Committee had made a deliberate, exhaustive inquiry, and he regretted that it had not borne fruit in regard to the particular proposals embodied in the Bill. He reminded the House that the Committee, as the outcome of their deliberations, arrived at three conclusions. In the first place, they found there was no case for protection in the shape of a 40s. duty—the Report fully disposed of that proposal. Incidentally the Committee found that hop growers had two legitimate grievances, namely, that the use of hop substitutes was not prohibited here as in some foreign countries and in some of our own Colonies, and that foreign hops were accordingly imported unmarked, and in some cases mixed, while home-grown hops were not allowed to be so treated. For these two grievances the Committee recommended remedies. Lastly, they recommended that the Board of Agriculture should adopt a practice followed by the Department in the United States and give information to growers as to what was going on in other parts of the world, and information as to scientific cultivation and processes for the eradication of disease. He had been informed that it was the intention of the Board of Agriculture to take action in this direction. One result of the labours of the Committee was to dispose of the notion that an import duty would in the long run help hop growers, and he deeply regretted that time had not permitted the opportunity for disposing of the impression that this Bill had a protective character. He
  2174
  hoped that opportunity would be given early next session.
  MR. MORTONsaid he did not blame the Government or think the Bill had anything to do with tariff reform. It would, if passed, have been a step in the direction of temperance, and if it had thereby been a benefit to hop growers, he was sure it would have been welcomed. He hoped the Government would carry it through next session.
  MR. DUNDAS WHITEconsidered that the Government had taken the right course. From its introduction the Bill had been rather unfortunate. It was not introduced until a late period of the session. It was given a Second Reading on the assurance that there would be full opportunity for discussion in Committee, but there had been no time for that. No member of the Government had justified it on its merits. The justification appeared to be simply that it carried out the recommendations of the Select Committee. He ventured to say that a measure like this coming before the House ought to be considered on its merits. There were only two operative clauses. The first was designed to prevent the use of what were called hop substitutes, and it was to be observed that the description of those substances was intended to cover everything which could be used as substitutes for hops, whether they were used in substitution for hops or in addition to them. If it had been proposed simply to prohibit the use of deleterious substances, he should have been glad to support it. But that was not what the Bill did.
  MR. SPEAKERsaid this was not an opportunity for discussing the merits of the Bill. If the hon. Member wanted to do that, they must go into Committee.
  MR. DUNDAS WHITEsaid that under the circumstances, as there had been no opportunity of discussing the Bill, he thought the Government had acted very properly in taking the course they had.
  LORD K. CECILsaid his hon. friend the Member for Rye complained of the action of the Government in withdrawing this Bill, saying that he understood that the Government were pledged to pass it into law. Hon. Members opposite took it that his hon. friend was referring to the statement which the Prime Minister made a few days ago in dealing with the business of the session, but that was not the statement that was referred to, but one made very far back in August. He had not seen the statement, but he understood that it was of a much less, conditional character than that made by the Prime Minister lately. For himself, frankly, he might say that he did not see his way to supporting the Bill in its present form. Although he did not think, strictly speaking, that it was a protective Bill he thought it would not be for the public interest that it should be passed as it at present stood.
  MR. BYLESsaid that the hon. Member for Rye complained that Amendments were put down by Members on that side of this House, and seemed to imagine that His Majesty's Opposition were the only persons who could legitimately place them upon the Paper. Members sitting on that side of the House, however, were entitled to criticise the Bill, and put down Amendments, and the measure ought to be fully discussed. They might, perhaps, be convinced by the Prime Minister or the hon. Member for Rye, and the Bill might be passed, but to push through a Bill of this kind, to which strong objection was taken, at that stage of the session, and at the eleventh hour, seemed to them to be improper. Therefore, they had insisted upon putting down Amendments, and, for his part, he was very glad that for this session the Bill had been withdrawn.
  Order for Committee read, and discharged.
  Bill withdrawn.

  HOUSING OF THE WORKING CLASSES (IRELAND) BILL.
  Lords Reason for insisting on one of their Amendments to which this House
  2176
  hath disagreed, Lords' Amendments to the Bill in lieu of one of their Amendments to which this House hath disagreed, and Lords Amendments to certain of the Commons Amendments to the Lords Amendments to be considered forthwith.—(Mr. Joseph Pease.)
  Lords Reasons and Amendments considered.
  Lords Amendments agreed to.

  MESSAGE FROM THE LORDS.
  That they have agreed to—
  Port of London Bill, with Amendments.
  That they have passed a Bill, intituled, "An Act to confirm a Provisional Order under the Private Legislation Procedure (Scotland) Act, 1899, relating to the Edinburgh and Leith Corporations Gas." [Edinburgh and Leith Corporations Gas Order Confirmation Bill [Lords.]

  PORT OF LONDON BILL.
  Lords' Amendments to be considered To-morrow, and to be printed. [Bill 409.]

  EDINBURGH AND LEITH CORPORATION GAS ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL [LORDS].
  Read the first time; and ordered (under Section 9 of the Private Legislation Procedure (Scotland) Act, 1899) to be read a second time To-morrow, and to be printed. [Bill 410.]
  Whereupon Mr. Speaker, in pursuance of the Order of the House of 31st July, adjourned the House without Question put.
  Adjourned at twenty-one minutes after Five o'clock.