TERRITORIAL AND RESERVE FORCES BILL.

HC Deb 29 May 1907 vol 174 cc1707-44

Considered in Committee.

(In the Committee.)

[Mr. CALDWELL (Lanarkshire, Mid.) in the Chair.]

Clause 3:

MR. VICTOR CAVENDISH

moved to leave out the words, "for Army services." he explained that the object of the Amendment was to make it as clear as possible that the money voted by the House of Commons should be applied to the purposes for which they were granted. It appeared to him that under the scheme they were going to have considerable resort to the system of capitation grants, and therefore it was most necessary and desirable that they should have as many particulars as they could get in regard to the sums to be voted. Notwithstanding what had been said in the previous debate the impression still remained on his mind that it was the intention of the Government to ask the House of Commons to vote a large aggregate sum, and out of that to make grants to the various County Associations. He failed to see any necessity for the words which he proposed to omit from the clause. If the obligation was cast upon the Army Council to ask the House to vote several sums of money they must lay definitely before the House their reasons for asking for those sums. He felt certain that the purposes of the Act would be better carried out if Parliament was asked to vote definite sums than if the finance of the County Associations came out of an aggregate sum. He hoped the right hon. Gentleman would restrict the action of the Army Council in such a manner as to prevent money voted for one purpose being applied to another. The Amendment, he thought, went some way in compelling the Army Council to state definitely for what purpose the money was required. He begged to move.

Amendment proposed— In page 4, line 25, to leave out the words for Army services.'"— (Mr. Victor Cavendish.)

Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the clause."

MR. BUCHANAN

said he did not think the adoption of the Amendment would really further the view which the right hon. Gentleman had in view. The Army Council would have no power over moneys voted by Parliament except those for Army services. As the right hon. Gentleman was well aware, there was no general Vote under the Army Estimates which the authorities at the War Office could use for any general purposes. Possibly the object which the right hon. Gentleman had in view might be made the subject of an Amendment at a later stage, but nothing would be gained by insisting on the Amendment now before the Committee.

MR. VICTOR CAVENDISH

asked leave to withdraw the Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

*MR. COURTHOPE (Sussex, Rye)

moved to omit the words "in the opinion of the Army Council." He did not think it should rest with the Army Council or any central body to say what should be treated as necessary expenditure in connection with the discharge of the County Associations' duties. It was essentially a matter to be decided upon the spot. He did not mean that the central body should have no control at all, but it was impossible for a central body to decide exactly what was necessary in this or that place or what would be spent here and what would be saved there. Under the present system, as far as the Volunteers were concerned, the expenditure out of public funds was strictly defined, and the result was that in many districts a large sum find to be raised by subscription or else provided by the company officers in order to give the men a training at all and comply with the regulations as to efficiency. If, however, under the right hon. Gentleman's scheme they were going to have a democratic Army, he maintained that that Army should be paid on democratic lines and should not be dependent upon local subscriptions and good will or the generosity of the officers. To illustrate this, let them take a Volunteer company situated in a country district far from the battalion's headquarters. It had to be recruited from seven or eight different hamlets or villages and was served by one rifle range. It might or might not be in a central place, but at any rate it must be a long distance from some squad centres. The picture he was trying to draw was no exaggeration, for his own company was in that position. He had only one rifle range for his men, and in order to train them properly he had to bring them all in to drill. He could not drill them entirely in squads at their homes because for part of their training it was essential that the company should be brought together. It was impossible to expect men, whether they were shop assistants or agricultural labourers, at the end of their day's work to march four or five miles, and in some cases twelve miles, to do two hours drill and then march home again. The Government must provide such men with the means to convey them to and from their homes for drill. It was a necessary expenditure if the men were to be trained at all, but it was an expenditure which had not been recognised in the past, and would not in the future, if the expenditure was to be stereotyped by Army Council regulations. There were many other instances to which the same thing applied. It was quite impossible for the Army Council to appreciate all the difficulties of individual cases. The responsibility of the company officers would remain under the new system as it was now, and that alone would absolutely destroy any democratic principle which the Government wished to apply. He hoped the Government would accept his Amendment, or at least give some satisfactory assurance that the whole of the necessary expenditure would be met by the Treasury, and that officers would in future be freed from the obli- gation of finding money to train and equip their men. He begged to move.

Amendment proposed:— In page 4, line 26, to leave out the words in the opinion of the Army Council.'"— (Mr. Courthope.)

Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Clause."

MR. BUCHANAN

said that if the Bill passed the association for the county would send in to the Army Council an estimate of the amount of money it would probably want for the various corps under its jurisdiction for travelling and other charges. If the Army Council considered, on investigation, that it was a reasonable amount they would grant it. The object the hon. Member had in view would be attained by the clause as it stood; and it would not be helped in any way by leaving out the words suggested in his Amendment.

MR. VICTOR CAVENDISH

said that he had given notice of a similar Amendment, but for quite other reasons than those mentioned by his hon. friend. The object he had in view was to secure that, when once the money had been voted, it should be spent, not as the Army Council might think proper, but as the House of Commons had decided it should be spent when it voted the money. What he was afraid of was that if these words were left in, after the money had been voted by Parliament there might be an inclination on the part of the Army Council of the day to spend it possibly in directions other than those already decided upon by Parliament; and therefore he thought that the words were unnecessary.

*MR. LEIF JONES (Westmorland, Appleby)

said he was one of those who had shared the doubt as to how far the scheme of the Bill would meet the requirements of sound financial control; but he was convinced that it was sounder than the scheme proposed by the hon. Member who moved the Amendment. The hon. Member's proposal was, as he understood it, that the local associations should have the last word to say as to the allocation and expenditure of the money voted by Parliament. He regarded it as of importance that the last word should be with the Army Council, and that was what the words proposed to be left out secured. He therefore would oppose the Amendment. A right hon. Gentleman had come forward with a similar Amendment from the opposite point of view, with which he had the greatest possible sympathy, of maintaining the control of Parliament, but it seemed to him that it would have an effect contrary to what his right hon. friend desired. As the clause stood the County Association would have to justify their claims to the Army Council. The contradictory grounds on which this Amendment had been supported on the other side seemed to him absolutely fatal to it, and he hoped it would be withdrawn.

MR. FORSTER (Kent, Sevenoaks)

did not see why the words "in the opinion of the Army Council" were in the clause at all. As far as he could make out the reason was that it was intended that the views

of the Army Council were to prevail over the views of the associations, and the Army Council was to have the last word as to the direction in which the money was to be expended. If these words were expunged, the clause would read perfectly naturally and reasonably as follows:—"The Army Council shall pay to an association, out of money voted by Parliament for Army services, such sums as are required to meet the necessary expenditure connected with the exercise and discharge by the association of its powers and duties," and he could not see that the authority of the Army Council was weakened in any way by the Amendment. He thought the words which it was proposed to omit were redundant and might therefore well be left out.

Question put.

The Committee divided:—Ayes, 200 Noes. 40. (Division List No. 189.)

AYES.
Abraham, William (Rhondda)	Clough, William	Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth)
Allen, A. Acland (Christehurch)	Clynes, J. R,	Haworth, Arthur A.
Allen, Charles P. (Stroud)	Collins, Stephen (Lambeth)	Hemmerde, Edward George
Aatbury, John Meir	Corbett, CH (Sussex, E. Grinst'd	Henderson, Arthur (Durham)
Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth)	Cotton, Sir H. J. S.	Henderson, J. M. (Aberdeen, W.)
Balfour, Robert (Lanark)	Cowan, W. H.	Henry, Charles S.
Barker, John	Cremer, William Randal	Herbert, Colonel Ivor (Mon., S.)
Barlow, John Emmott (Somerset	Crombie, John William	Higham, John Sharp
Barlow, Percy (Bedford)	Crooks, William	Hobhouse, Charles E. H.
Barran, Rowland Hirst	Crosfield, A. H.	Hodge, John
Bell, Richard	Davies, Ellis William (Eifion)	Holt, Richard Durning
Berridge, T. H. D.	Davies, W. Howell (Bristol, S.)	Horniman, Emslie John
Bethell, Sir J. H. (Essex, Romf'rd	Dewar, Arthur (Edinburgh, S.)	Horridge, Thomas Gardner
Billson, Alfred	Duckworth, James	Howard, Hon. Geoffrey
Black, Arthur W.	Edwards, Clement (Denbigh)	Hudson, Walter
Boulton, A. C. F.	Edwards, Enoch (Hanley)	Hyde, Clarendon
Bowerman, C. W.	Elibank, Master of	Idris, T. H. W.
Brace, William	Esslemont, George Birnie	Jacoby, Sir James Alfred
Bramsdon, T. A.	Evans, Samuel T.	Johnson, W. (Nuneaton)
Brigg, John	Everett, R. Lacey	Jones, Leif (Appleby)
Brodie, H. C.	Fenwick, Charles	Jowett, F. W.
Brooke, Stopford	Findlay, Alexander	Kincaid-Smith, Captain
Brunner, J. F. L. (Lanes., Leigh)	Fuller, John Michael F.	Laidlaw, Robert
Bryce, J. Annan	Fullerton, Hugh	Lamb, Edmund G. (Leominster
Buchanan, Thomas Rybura	Gill, A. H.	Lamb, Ernest H. (Rochester)
Buckmaster, Stanley O.	Goddard, Daniel Ford	Lamont, Norman
Burns, Rt. Hon. John	Grant, Corrie	Lea, Hugh Cecil (St, Pancras, E.)
Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas	Greenwood, G. (Peterborough)	Lloyd-George, Rt. Hon. David
Buxton, Rt. Hn. Sydney Charles	Greenwood, Hamar (York)	Lupton, Arnold
Byles, William Pollard	Gulland, John W.	Luttrell, Hugh Fownes
Cairns, Thomas	Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton	Lyell, Charles Henry
Causton, Rt Hn Richard Knight	Haldane, Rt. Hon. Richard B.	Lynch, H. B.
Cawley, Sir Frederick	Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Lewis	Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester
Cheetham, John Frederick	Hardy, George A, (Suffolk)	Macdonald, J. M. (FalkirkBg'hs)
Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R.	Hart-Davies, T.	Maclean, Donald
Clarke, C. Goddard (Peckham)	Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale)	Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.
Cleland, J. W.	Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N. E.	M'Callum, John M.
M'Crae, George	Richards, Thomas (W. Monm'th	Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr
M'Laren, Sir C. B. (Leicester)	Richards, T. F. (Wolverh' mpt'n	Thomasson, Franklin
M'Laren, H. D. (Stafford, W.)	Richardson, A.	Thompson J. W. H. (Somerset, E
M'Micking, Major G.	Rickett, J. Compton	Thorne, William
Mallet, Charles E.	Roberts, G. H. (Norwich)	Tomkinson, James
Manfield, Harry (Northants)	Robertson, Rt. Hn. E. (Dundee)	Torrance, Sir A. M.
Mansfield, H. Rendall (Lincoln)	Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside)	Toulmin, George
Massie, J.	Robinson, S.	Verney, F. W.
Micklem, Nathaniel	Roe, Sir Thomas	Walsh, Stephen
Molteno, Percy Alport	Rogers, F. E. Newman	Walters, John Tudor
Morgan, G. Hay (Cornwall)	Rowlands, J.	Ward, John (Stoke upon Trent
Morse, L. L.	Russell, T. W.	Wardle, George J.
Morton, Alpheus Cleophas	Rutherford, V. H. (Brentford)	Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan)
Murray, James	Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel)	Watt, Henry A.
Myer, Horatio	Schwann, Sir C. E. (Manchester)	Weir, James Galloway
Nicholls, George	Sears, J. E.	White, J. D. (Dumbartonshire)
Nicholson, Charles N. (Doncast'r	Seddon, J.	Whitehead, Rowland
Norton, Capt. Cecil William	Shackleton, David James	Whitley, John Henry (Halifax
Nuttall, Harry	Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)	Whittaker, Sir Thomas Palme
O'Grady, J.	Shaw, Rt, Hon. T. (Hawick B.)	Wiles, Thomas
Parker, James (Halifax)	Silcock, Thomas Ball	Wills, Arthur Walters
Partington, Oswald	Simon, John Allsebrook	Wilson, John (Durham, Mid)
Paul, Herbert	Sinclair, Rt. Hon. John	Wilson, J. H. (Middlesbrough)
Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek)	Spicer, Sir Albert	Wilson, P. W. (St. Pancras, S.)
Pearce, William (Limehouse)	Stanley, Hn. A. Lyulph (Chesh.	Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton
Pirie, Duncan V.	Steadman, W. C.	Winfrey, R.
Price, C. E. (Edinb'gh, Central)	Stewart, Halley (Greenock)	Wood, T. M'Kinnon
Priestley, Arthur (Grantham)	Strauss, E. A. (Abingdon)
Priestley, W. E. B. (Bradford, E.)	Sutherland, J. E.	TELLERS FOR THE AYES—
Radford, G. H.	Taylor, John W. (Durham)	Mr. Whiteley and Mr. Herbert Lewis.
Raphael, Herbert H.	Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.)
NOES.
Acland-Hood, Rt Hn Sir Alex. F.	Fell, Arthur	Randies, Sir John Scurrah
Balcarres, Lord	Fetherstonhaugh, Godfrey	Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel
Barrie, H. T. (Londonderry, N.)	Forster, Henry William	Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall)
Bowles, G. Stewart	Haddock, George R.	Salter, Arthur Clavell
Boyle, Sir Edward	Hamilton, Marquess of	Smith, F. E. (Liverpool, Walton,
Bridgeman, W. Clive	Houston, Robert Paterson	Stone, Sir Benjamin
Bull, Sir William James	King Sir Henry Seymour (Hull)	Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)
Butcher, Samuel Henry	Law, Andrew Bonar (Dulwich)	Thomson, W. Mitchell-(Lanark)
Campbell, Rt. Hon. J. H. M.	Lowe, Sir Francis William	Tuke, Sir John Batty
Cave, George	Macpherson J. T.	Valentia, Viscount
Cavendish, Rt. Hn. Victor C. W.	Magnus, Sir Philip
Collings, Rt. Hn J (Birmingham)	Morpeth, Viscount	TELLERS FOR THE NOES—
Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)	Parkes, Ebenezer	Mr. Courthope and Viscount Castlereagh.
Craig, Captain James (Down, E)	Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington
Duncan, Robt. (Lanark, Govan	Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

*VISCOUNT VALENTIA (Oxford)

said his object in moving to leave out the word "necessary" in order to insert the word "whole," so that the Army Council should pay to the association all the expenditure which it incurred, was to avert two dangers which would be present in the clause if it was left as it was. He felt that it was possible that the clerks in the War Office in examining the accounts sent in by the county associations might take a different view from that which the associations took of the word "necessary." He had had much correspondence with the War Office and knew that it was in the power of a subordinate to say that there was a warrant or an Army order which made it impossible that the item should be allowed. There was a story extant of how a small item involving sixpence led to an enormous amount of correspondence. An officer travelling abroad sent in an account in which the item of "Porter 6d." occurred. The memorandum was sent back with the remark that refreshment was not allowed to officers on this duty, and that sixpence could not be allowed for the "porter" which he claimed. The officer wrote back and said he had not had any refreshment, but the sixpence was spent on the porter who had conveyed his portmanteau from the station to the hotel. He was told that that should be returned as "porterage" and not as "porter," and in reply he pertinently asked whether if he took a cab, he should return the sum paid as "cabbage." There was a danger that these War Office vagaries would be repeated on what was thought to be necessary expenditure by the County Associations. There was the danger also of the Territorial Force being starved for money by the War Office which would be naturally influenced by the old soldiers at the top of the tree who considered that all expenditure was waste which was not expended on the regular forces. It was to avert these dangers that he begged to move.

Amendment proposed— In page 4, line 27, to leave out the word 'necessary,' and to insert the word 'whole.'"—(Viscount Valentia.)

Question proposed, "That the word proposed to be left out stand part of the Clause."

MR. BUCHANAN

was understood to say the words in the clause were sufficient to meet the object the noble Lord had in view. The Secretary of State for War had definitely stated that the Army Council were prepared to bear, out of public funds, all such expenditure for the purpose of maintaining the Territorial Army.

*VISCOUNT VALENTIA

Necessary in the opinion of the Army Council.

MR. BUCHANAN

said certainly that must be so. He thought that would be sufficient guarantee for the future. It was essential that the Army Council should have some control over the demands of the County Associations, and hon. Members who had complained that the Government had not kept sufficient control over the expenditure would not grudge this control to the Army Council.

CAPTAIN CRAIG (Down, E.)

said he did not think that what had been said met this Amendment, and unless some undertaking such as was suggested by the Amendment were given he was afraid it would come back to the old system of sending the hat round in various parts of the country in order to obtain that equipment which the Army Council thought unnecessary. The local conditions in various parts differed very greatly and what was thought necessary in one district for equipment would not be necessary in another. "Necessary" was a word of great elasticity, and what might be a necessity in the eyes of some might be a luxury in the eyes of others. He thought there should be a statement from the Front Bench to define the meaning of the word "necessary" in this connection. By accepting the Amendment the War Office would only be doing in effect what they had promised in principle, viz., was to bear the whole cost of carrying this scheme into effect. Those who had taken a great interest in the old Yeomanry and other voluntary forces might not care to extend the same patronage to the new Territorial Force, and it seemed to him that if only the bare necessities of the case were met these people might naturally say to themselves that the State having taken over the control entirely they must pay for it. The sources which had hitherto been open to various regiments would be closed, and when those regiments met together some might find themselves at a loss to equip themselves in the manner to which they had been accustomed. He supported the Amendment.

*VISCOUNT VALENTIA

after the explanation of the hon. Gentleman opposite asked leave to withdraw the Amendment, but he hoped the Army Council would see that there was no lack of funds for the Territorial Army.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

MR. VICTOR CAVENDISH

moved an Amendment to Sub-section 2, providing that the approval of the Treasury as well as the Army Council should be required for the statement of the requirements of an association considered as a basis for payments. He thought that both sides of the House were very nearly in accord with regard to the general view of this question. The point was how far it was carried out by the words of the Bill. This Bill had been very largely drawn as an enabling measure, and they had to deal with regulations which they had not seen and even of the existence of which they did not know. The object of the Amendment was to get it definitely laid down that the expenditure of the county associations was to be approved by the Treasury as well as by the Army Council. He wished that the Treasury should be alive to the necessity of all these matters being submitted to them by direct order of the House, in order that they might have greater security, both for efficiency and for economy.

Amendment proposed— In page 4, line 34, at end to insert the words 'and the Treasury.'"—(Mr. Victor Cavendish.)

Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."

MR. BUCHANAN

said he did not think that the right hon. Gentleman had carefully studied the clause, which he night say was very plain— An association shall submit to the Army Council annually at the prescribed time, and may submit at any other time for any special purpose, in the prescribed form and manner, a statement of its necessary requirements, and all payments to an association by the Army Council shall be made upon the basis of such statements as far as they are approved by the Army Council. That was the preliminary stage in the composition and submission of the Estimate. The War Office, like any other Department, sent their Estimates one by one to the Treasury for approval, and the Treasury made their comments upon the Estimates as a whole, and also upon the items of those Estimates. It was not the practice of the War Office, nor was it demanded by the Treasury, that the former should consult the latter as to any particular item proposed to be put into the Estimate. It would be wholly without precedent, and not demanded by the Treasury, that at this stage the Treasury should be consulted as to the reasonableness or otherwise of the amount of money proposed to be given to the county associations for their purposes. When the whole Estimate vas completed in form it was sent over to the Treasury, who wrote back to the Department their comments. They might say that too much was asked on this item, or too little on that, and they would ask the reason of a particular item or charge. It was a perfectly recognised practice, and he did not think that any useful purpose would be served in regard to the work of the Departments if they put upon their discretion the limiting restriction suggested by the Amendment as to the items which should be inserted in the Estimate to be subsequently submitted to the Treasury.

SIR F. BANBURY

said he had no quite understood the reason which had actuated the hon. Gentleman in refusing to accept the Amendment of his hon. friend. As far as he understood, when the Estimate was first made, it was sent to the Treasury for examination. The clause as to the payments to the associations was that the payments should be "on the basis of such statements, in so far as they an approved by the Army Council." If English words had any meaning, that provision meant that the payments made to the associations were to be made if the Army Council considered that such payments were necessary. He had very often listened to the hon. Gentleman opposite when he stood below the gangway on that side of the House, and when his contention always was that Treasury sanction should be obtained, and if Treasury sanction was not obtained, at any rate no sum should be voted without the consent of the House of Commons. He had sat on the Public Accounts Committee with the hon. Gentleman, and he had heard him speak at great length on this subject. Now, as he understood, the hon. Gentleman had thrown over all his principles, and was prepared to approve a plan which would give the Army Council power to vote money to County Associations without the consent of the Treasury, and without the consent of Parliament. He had received so many shocks since he returned to. Parliament about a year ago that nothing done by hon. Gentlemen on the opposite side of the House would surprise him. He approved very heartily of the Amendment. He could not conceive that there could be any objection to it. The result of it would be that when the association had submitted to the Army Council their Estimate, the Army Council, when they had approved of it, would have to say to the Treasury that they approved of the Estimate, and that they required their sanction to it. Was not that a practice which had obtained almost from time immemorial? Why should that practice be overthrown? The hon. Gentleman had given no reason that he could understand. The question touched the whole system of control by the Treasury of the expenditure of the nation. Unless some satisfactory explanation was given he should support the Amendment of his hon. friend.

CAPTAIN CRAIG

thought that the the Treasury had too much to do with the Territorial Force. But if they were to interfere at all, this was the very place where the sanction of the Treasury should be required. It appeared to him to be very much simpler that the Treasury should sanction the requirements before the Army Council gave the order to have them carried out. He understood that the payments by the Army Council to the associations were to be made on a statement of the requirements of the associations. But if the Army Council made payments to a county association on such a basis, it could be afterwards vetoed by the Treasury under sub-section 3. If that were the case it seemed to him that the Treasury should, in the first instance, be consulted on the basis of

the statement of requirements, and, if the Treasury gave their sanction, then the county association and the Army Council would be backed up by the fact that the amount and the details were approved. Supposing that the Army Council desired to introduce some small amendments into the scheme of the county association, and sent it back to be altered in accordance with what their experience of other counties suggested to be necessary, it seemed to him that between the Army Council and the county association there would be no finality whatever. The Amendment would tend to simplify what would prove to be an exceedingly complicated situation in the working of the Bill, and upon those grounds he should support it.

Question put.

The Committee divided:—Ayes, 42; Noes, 219. (Division List No. 190.)

AYES.
Acland-Hood, Rt Hn, Sir Alex. F.	Duncan, Robert (Lanark, Govan	Powell, Sir Francis Sharp
Balcarres, Lord	Fell, Arthur	Randles, Sir John Scurrah
Barrie, H. T. (Londonderry, N.)	Fetherstonhaugh, Godfrey	Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel
Bowles, G. Stewart	Forster, Henry William	Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall)
Boyle, Sir Edward	Haddock, George R.	Salter, Arthur Clavell
Bridgeman, W. Clive	Hamilton, Marquess of	Smith, F. E. (Liverpool, Walton)
Bull, Sir William James	Harrison-Broadley, H. B.	Stone, Sir Benjamin
Butcher, Samuel Henry	Houston, Robert Paterson	Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)
Campbell, Rt. Hon. J. H. M.	Kimber, Sir Henry	Thomson, W. Mitchell-(Lanark)
Castlereagh, Viscount	King, Sir Henry Seymour (Hull)	Valentia, Viscount
Cave, George	Law, Andrew Bonar (Dulwich)
Cavendish, Rt. Hon. Victor C. W.	Lowe, Sir Francis William	TELLERS FOR THE AYES—
Cecil, Lord John P. Joicey-	Magnus, Sir Philip	Sir F. Banbury and Captain Craig.
Collings, Rt. Hn. J. (Birmingham	Morpeth, Viscount
Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)	Parkes, Ebenezer
Courthope, G. Loyd	Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington)
NOES.
Abraham, William (Rhondda)	Brigg, John	Collins, Stephen (Lambeth)
Allen, A. Acland (Christchurch)	Brodie, H. C.	Corbett, C. H. (Sussex, E. Grinst'd
Allen, Charles P. (Stroud)	Brooke, Stopford	Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.
Astbury, John Meir	Brunner, J. F. L. (Lancs., Leigh)	Cotton, Sir H. J. S.
Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth)	Bryce, J. Annan	Cowan, W. H.
Balfour, Robert (Lanark)	Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn	Cremer, William Randal
Barker, John	Buckmaster, Stanley O.	Crombie, John William
Barlow, John Emmott (Somerset	Burns, Rt. Hon. John	Crooks, William
Barlow, Percy (Bedford)	Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas	Crosfield, A. H.
Barran, Rowland Hirst	Buxton, Rt. Hn. Sydney Charles	Davies, Ellis William (Eifion)
Beauchamp, E.	Byles, William Pollard	Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardigan)
Bell, Richard	Cairns, Thomas	Davies, W. Howell (Bristol, S.)
Benn, W. (T'w'rHamlets, S. Geo.	Causton, RtmnRichard Knight	Dewar, Arthur (Edinburgh, S.)
Berridge, T. H. D.	Cawley, Sir Frederick	Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh.)
Bethell, Sir J H. (Essex, Romford	Channing, Sir Francis Allston	Edwards, Enoch (Hanley)
Billson, Alfred	Cheetham, John Frederick	Elibank, Master of
Black, Arthur W.	Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R.	Esslemont, George Birnie
Boulton, A. C. F.	Clarke, C. Goddard (Peckham)	Evans, Samuel T.
Bowerman, C. W.	Cleland, J. W.	Eve, Harry Trelawney
Brace, William	Clough, William	Everett, R. Lacey
Bramsdon, T. A.	Clynes, J. R.	Fenwick, Charles
Findlay, Alexander	Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk B'ghs)	Sears, J. E.
Fuller, John Michael F.	Mackarness, Frederic C.	Seddon, J.
Fullerton, Hugh	Maclean, Donald	Shackleton, David James
Gibb, James (Harrow)	Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.	Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)
Gill, A. H.	Macpherson, J. T.	Shaw, Rt. Hon. T. (Hawick, B.)
Goddard, Daniel Ford	M'Callum, John M.	Sherwell, Arthur James
Grant, Corrie	M'Crae, George	Silcock, Thomas Ball
Greenwood, G. (Peterborough)	M'Laren, Sir C. B. (Leicester)	Simon, John Allsebrook
Gulland, John W.	M'Micking, Major G.	Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie
Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton	Mallet, Charles E.	Spicer, Sir Albert
Haldane, Rt. Hon. Riclard B.	Manfield, Harry (Northants)	Stanger, H. Y.
Harcourt, Right Hon. Lewis	Mansfield, H. Rendall (Lincoln)	Stanley, Hn. A. Lyulph (Chesh.)
Hardy, George A. (Suffolk)	Massie, J.	Steadman, W. C.
Hart-Davies, T.	Micklem, Nathaniel	Stewart, Halley (Greenock)
Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale)	Molteno, Percy Alport	Stewart-Smith, D. (Kendal)
Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N. E.	Mond, A.	Strauss, E. A. (Abingdon)
Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth)	Morgan, G. Hay (Cornwall)	Sutherland, J. E.
Haworth, Arthur A.	Morse, L. L.	Taylor, John W. (Durham)
Helme, Norval Watson	Morton, Alpheus Cleophas	Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.)
Hemmerde, Edward George	Murray, James	Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr)
Henderson, Arthur (Durham)	Myer, Horatio	Thomasson, Franklin
Henderson, J. M. (Aberdeen, W.)	Nicholls, George	Thompson, J. W. H. (Somerset, E.
Henry, Charles S.	Nicholson, Charles N. (Doncaster	Thorne, William
Herbert, Colonel Ivor (Mon., S.)	Norton, Capt. Cecil William	Tomkinson, James
Higham, John Sharp	Nuttall, Harry	Torrance, Sir A. M.
Hobhouse, Charles E. H.	O'Grady, J.	Toulmin, George
Hodge, John	Parker, James (Halifax)	Tuke, Sir John Batty
Holt, Richard Burning	Partington, Oswald	Verney, F. W.
Horniman, Emslie John	Paul, Herbert	Walsh, Stephen
Horridge, Thomas Gardner	Paulton, James Mellor	Walters, John Tudor
Howard, Hon. Geoffrey	Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek)	Ward, John (Stoke upon Trent)
Hudson, Walter	Pearce, William (Limehouse)	Wardle, George J.
Hyde, Clarendon	Pirie, Duncan V.	Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan)
Idris, T. H. W.	Price, C. E (Edinburgh, Central)	Watt, Henry A.
Jacoby, Sir James Alfred	Priestley, Arthur (Grantham)	Wedgwood, Josiah C
Johnson, W. (Nuneaton)	Priestley, W. E. B. (Bradford, E.)	Weir, James Galloway
Jones, Leif (Appleby)	Radford, G. H.	White, J. D. (Dumbartonshire)
Jones, William (Carnarvonshire	Raphael, Herbert H.	Whitehead, Rowland
Jowett, F. W.	Rea, Russell (Gloucester)	Whitley, John Henry (Halifax)
Kearley, Hudson E.	Richards, Thomas (W. Monm'th	Whittaker, Sir Thomas Palmer
Kekewich, Sir George	Richards, T. F. (Wolverhampt'n	Wiles, Thomas
Laidlaw, Robert	Richardson, A.	Wills, Arthur Walters
Lamb, Edmund G. (Leominster	Rickett, J. Compton	Wilson, John (Durham), Mid)
Lamb, Ernest H. (Rochester)	Roberts, G. H. (Norwich)	Wilson, J. H. (Middlesbrough)
Lambert, George	Robertson, Rt. Hn. E. (Dundee)	Wilson, P. W. (St. Pancras, S.)
Lamont, Norman	Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside)	Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)
Layland-Barratt, Francis	Robinson, S.	Winfrey, R.
Lea, Hugh Cecil (St. Pancras, E.)	Roe, Sir Thomas	Wood, T. M'Kinnon
Levy, Maurice	Rogers, F. E. Newman
Lloyd-George, Rt. Hon. David	Rowlands, J.	TELLERS FOR THE NOES—
Luttrell, Hugh Fownes	Russell, T. W.	Mr. Whiteley and Mr. Herbert Lewis.
Lyell, Charles Henry	Rutherford, V. H. (Brentford)
Lynch, H. B.	Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel)
Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester)	Schwann, Sir C. E. (Manchester)

MR. VICTOR CAVENDISH

moved an Amendment to provide that the power of the Army Council to allow a County Association to apply money paid to it to purposes other than those specified in its statement of requirements should be subject to the sanction of the Treasury. He said that this was a question about which there was a good deal of doubt, but in his opinion it was a power which ought to be held by the Army Council subject to the approval of the Treasury for the good of the public service. It was a power which ought to be exercised with the greatest consideration, and only when full justification was shown. A heavy responsibility rested upon the Treasury in sanctioning the use of that power, and the fullest information upon the point ought to be laid before the House of Commons at the earliest possible moment. The sanction of the Treasury was absolutely necessary if expenditure was to be subject to the constitutional safeguards which had hitherto been enforced. He begged to move.

Amendment proposed— In page 4, line 39, at end, to insert the words 'after the sanction of the Treasury has been obtained.'"—(Mr. Victor Cavendish.)

Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."

MR. BUCHANAN

said it appeared to him that the hon. Gentleman had misapprehended the power to be conferred on the Army Council. The Army Council could not exercise the right of transfer from one subhead to another. The sixth sub-section of the clause said— Regulations made for the purposes of this section shall be subject to the consent of the Treasury. If the Army Council exercised their powers under Sub-section 3 of the clause they could only do so subject to the regulations made under the Act. The regulations must be made subject to the consent of the Treasury. He did not think, therefore, there was any reason for apprehending that undue powers were being given to the Army Council. Believing that the expenditure of public money for any purpose sanctioned by the Army Council was properly safeguarded, he could not accept the Amendment.

MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN

said he followed the hon. Gentleman's meaning up to the last sentence. He understood the hon. Gentleman to say at the commencement that he did not wish the Army Council to have any power under this section to transfer from one subhead to another. The power of transfer was a valuable one when properly used for securing due economy in administration. If that were all that was in the section, he would not object to it. But at the end of his speech the hon. Gentleman seemed to indicate that it went further. He claimed for the Army Council power to transfer as between any of the purposes stated by an association when it made its claim. He did not think it was the intention of the Government that the Army Council should have power to transfer money voted under one subhead to another.

MR. BUCHANAN

was understood to assent.

MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN

said he understood it was the intention of the Government that the Army Council should in future exercise the same discretion as it did now with the consent of the Treasury.

MR. BUCHANAN

Within the subheads.

MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN

said that was perfectly satisfactory as a statement of policy. The third sub-section of the clause said— All money so paid to an association shall, subject to regulations under this Act, be applicable to any of the purposes specified in the approved statements in accordance with which the money has been granted, but not otherwise except with the written consent of the Army Council. But the money allotted to an association under this sub-section would be subject to any regulation subsequently passed and of which the House had no knowledge. Under the sub-section as it stood a County Association, without coming to the War Office at all for sanction, might spend money allotted to it for one purpose on any of the other purposes in the approved statement. There was nothing in the sub-section to prevent it. This was really a proposal to grant to the new associations a power which was not now possessed by the Secretary of State for War.

MR. CHARLES HOBHOUSE

said regulations were contemplated.

MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN

said the House had no control over the regulations, and if no regulations were issued the section would still work. The regulations had not yet been drafted. They would be laid before the House, but there would be no opportunity for discussing them. He submitted that the sub-section went infinitely beyond what the Government wished to claim. If the Government accepted the Amendment they would get all they wanted. What was the objection to accepting it? He asked the right hon. Gentleman to reconsider the position. This was a matter in which all sections of the House were interested. They were all agreed in the object they wished to secure. If in the opinion of the right hon. Gentleman the Amendment was a mere question of surplusage, let him accept the words to which they attached importance.

MR. HALDANE

said the section provided for regulations as between the associations and the Army Council. Parliament voted money under general heads, and under the practice that was followed there might be transfers from subhead to subhead, but the clause would bring in more control to the Army Council. The association would submit an annual statement of necessary requirements, and the whole machinery of the clause was subject to the regulations of the Treasury. The association could only apply the money to the specific purpose mentioned in the statement, and the transfer from head to head, or even from subhead to subhead, by the association was not within the intention of the Government or the wording of the clause. The power of transfer from one purpose to another was restricted to purposes within the subhead. If that were so, to add the words of the Amendment would be redundant.

MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN

said he was not certain that he had made his meaning clear. He quite agreed that there was nothing in the Bill to weaken the control which the Treasury had over the War Office or Army Council. What he was referring to was the County Associations who would not be familiar with Parliamentary Votes, and still less with Parliamentary financial control and checks. The form prepared by the Army Council to be filled up by the County Associations might not be one which the House would adopt; and the County Associations might assume that any money paid to them could be spent in any way they chose, and, owing to the limited form of audit, there would be no way of following up the expenditure of the grants made. He hoped the Secretary of State for War would look very closely into the matter and invite the opinion of the Treasury upon it, with a view to prevent any abuse of the financial procedure he had adopted for the County Associations.

MR. HALDANE

said that what the right hon. Gentleman had stated was quite reasonable, although he himself thought that what he feared was covered by the words of the clause. However, he would undertake between now and the Report stage to consult not only his own financial experts, but to bring the matter to the notice of the Treasury.

* MR. MCCRAE

said that the question at issue was very much larger than that to which it had been whittled down in the discussion between the Secretary of State for War and the right hon. Member for East Worcestershire. What the members of the Public Accounts Committee were most concerned about was not Treasury control but Parliamentary control. They had had instances under the late Government where the Treasury and the Army Council in collusion transferred a sum of no less than £10,000,000, not from one subhead to another, but from one Estimate to another, and they professed to do it under this power of virement. He maintained that nothing in the Bill would give the Treasury any other powers than they at present possessed, and that the clause, as drafted, did not safeguard Parliamentary control, or even the power of the Treasury over the exceptions provided for. As he understood the speech of the Secretary of State for War, the right hon. Gentleman was prepared to admit that they ought not to go further with this power of virement; and if he was prepared to give an undertaking to provide for that in this clause on Report they might allow the discussion to close. The Amendment moved by the hon. Member for West Derbyshire would not give them any further financial control. He had instances in his mind in which the Treasury and the Army Council avoided Parliamentary control. Subsection of Clause 3 stated that— All money so paid to an association shall, subject to regulations under this Act, be applicable to any of the purposes specified in the approved statements in accordance with which the money has been granted, but not otherwise except with the written consent of the Array Council. Surely that provided that all that the Treasury could do was to make regulations under the Act to regulate the exceptions granted under the Act. He was sure that the Secretary of State for War did not wish to give the military men a free hand in regard to expenditure; but, unless some undertaking was given, a very wide field would be left for the evasion of the financial control which at present obtained with regard to Army expenditure.

MAJOR ANSTRUTHER-GRAY (St. Andrews Burghs)

May I ask, Mr. Speaker, what this strange word virement is? Is it Gaelic or Welsh?

*SIR CHARLES DILKE

said that the word was old French, but it had become official here, and if the hon. Gentleman referred to the Reports of the Public Accounts Committee he would find that it had been adopted and indexed for official use. It meant turning one thing into another. There was a notorious case where, for nine years in succession, the War Office had taken money for nine batteries of artillery which they had not the least idea of spending on these batteries, but of spending for other purposes. He thought the practice was most detrimental to sound finance.

MR. VICTOR CAVENDISH

said that after the undertaking given by the Secretary of State for War he would ask leave to withdraw his Amendment.

Amendment by leave, withdrawn.

VISCOUNT CASTLEREAGH (Maidstone)

said he wished to move the omission of Sub-section 4 of Clause 3 in order to elicit from the right hon. Gentleman an explanation of its meaning. The subsection began "all other money received by an association." It was obvious from that that other moneys would be received, but where were they to come from? The words of the Bill suggested that money would come otherwise than from an official quarter, which the right hon. Gentleman had led them to believe was the only quarter from which money would come. If they looked at another portion of the clause they found that the money was to be paid in such sums as "in the opinion of the Army Council" were required to meet the necessary expenditure. According to those words it would depend upon whether the expenditure was necessary, and consequently it meant that if the associations incurred expenditure which in the opinion of the Army Council was unnecessary, the money must be found from some other quarter in order that the expenditure might be defrayed. What he wanted to ask was where the money was to come from. Was it expected that the Lord-Lieutenant of the county, who, he was quite sure, was rejoicing that he had been elevated to such an important position as President of this Association, the provisions in regard to which he hoped would never come into force—was it expected that the Lord-Lieutenant should go round, to use a common expression, "with the hat" and solicit money from the various members of the community over which he presided? He knew that the right hon. Gentleman based his schemes of committees and associations on the experience gained in the South African War, but the organisation of these associations would have to take place in peace time, and the South African committees were dependent upon voluntary subscriptions. That made a great difference, and he would like to know whether when the right hon. Gentleman proposed the scheme he had at the back of his mind the idea that the county was coming forward at the bidding of the Lord-Lieutenant to find the money which perhaps a parsimonious War Office would not give. This provision in his opinion, was of an entirely redundant character, and he sincerely hoped that the right hon. Gentleman would put down his foot once and for all and say that the service of the State should be maintained by the State.

Amendment proposed— In page 5, line 1, to leave out Subsection (4)."—(Viscount Castlereagh.)

Question proposed, "That Subsection (4) stand part of the Clause."

MR. HALDANE

said the associations, which would, he trusted, form a real element in the social life of the county, might, for example, desire to offer prizes to be competed for among the battalions, and there might be people who would wish to give subscriptions for such a purpose. The subsection was intended to meet cases of that kind, to describe the ambit of the powers of the associations.

LORD WILLOUGHBY DE ERESBY (Lincolnshire, Horncastle)

said that many Yeomanry as well as Militia and Volunteer regiments possessed certain funds and also plate. Was it intended that such property would pass to the associations for the benefit of the Territorial Army?

MR. HALDANE

said that that matter was dealt with in Section 28, subsection (3), which provided for the transfer to the association of any property belonging to a unit, but subject to the trusts upon which it was previously held, or, where there was no trust, only with the consent of the unit ascertained and certified in the prescribed manner.

COLONEL KENYON-SLANEY (Shropshire, Newport)

said that he felt rather alarmed at the statement which had been made. If the county associations were to be entrusted with these powers and were to be in receipt of income from other than national sources they ought not to receive any bequests or legacies to be applied for purposes apart from those of national concern. So surely as the Government allowed them to receive money in the way of gifts they would be opening the door to all sorts of collusion and jobbery. He did not believe that it was proper that these associations should be the recipients of legacies and gifts for one part of the Army rather than another. One county association might be very successful in regard to the receipt of gifts or legacies while another county association was not, and there would be set up a condition of inequality which was not desirable. He hoped that the Amendment would be accepted and carried on the ground that they would not get fair treatment all round unless they prohibited the county associations from augmenting their incomes in the way suggested.

SIR F. BANBURY

said that he did not agree with his right hon. friend in thinking that this section opened the door to jobbery. In his opinion the section was a good one, provided that the Secretary of State was desirous of receiving voluntary contributions for the purpose of maintaining the Territorial Army. If that was the object of the right hon. Gentleman, then the clause could not be better drawn. At the same time, he thought that it was an extraordinary thing to introduce in a national Army Bill a clause whereby permission was given to send round the hat asking for subscriptions to the Army as if it were a hospital or a voluntary school. Did the right hon. Gentlemen propose to give a grant-in-aid to the Territorial Army and allow the county associations to go round for subscriptions?

VISCOUNT CASTLEREAGH

said he did not think the answer of the hon. Gentleman in any sense disposed of the question. It was obvious that the expenses of the "powers and duties" under this section should be defrayed at the cost of the nation.

MR. BRIDGEMAN (Shropshire, Oswestry)

asked whether, if he left money to an association to encourage cadet battalions and corps and rifle clubs, the association would be able to spend it for that purpose.

MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN

said the right hon. Gentleman had expressed his determination to maintain equality among the various units which were to be established in the Territorial Army, and he asked what was to prevent people subscribing to put a particular unit in a more favourable position than its neighbour. Another point on which emphasis had been laid was that there should be nothing in the nature of handing the hat round in regard to the Territorial Force. Would not the sub-section, however, authorise an association to solicit assistance?

MR. HALDANE

said the Government had never said they wanted to put the associations in a worse position than the Regular Army by depriving them of the chance of receiving a legacy—for prizes for shooting, for instance. Many of the most distinguished regiments had attached to them societies which depended upon the exercise of voluntary co-operation and assistance, and which did most useful work. He contemplated that there would be a great deal of interest in these associations in the counties, and very likely people would give cups and the like, and he hoped they would sometimes leave legacies. He was not prepared to put the associations in the position in which a felon used to be under the old law, or in which a married woman was in the old benighted times, so that they could not take and hold any property. The money was to be applied to whatever purposes were within the scope of the associations, and not otherwise.

VISCOUNT CASTLEREAGH

pointed out that there were certain duties paid for by the State, and asked if voluntary contributions would lighten the burdens of the State in respect of those duties.

CAPTAIN CRAIG

asked whether, if a county association had been liberally dealt with during the year by private gentlemen, the amount which had been so received would be knocked off the estimate when it came before the Army Council? If that were not so, would the money be for the use of the county association in future years for its own benefit? If a few hundreds a year were left to a county association, would that money go towards the reduction of the estimates prepared to meet the expenses of that association, or would it go to supplement the money coming from the War Office, and therefore make that particular county more efficient than neighbouring counties? That was the real gravamen of the matter. He could imagine a sort of rivalry between counties each to maintain its own force in a state of efficiency; so that this point about voluntary subscriptions undoubtedly raised a very wide issue. The right hon. Gentleman had not thrown very much light on the exact definition of the words "powers and duties." If the powers and duties were not to be met entirely out of the funds of the Army Council, it seemed to him that the right hon. Gentleman's desire to have all

the forces on one level would be difficult of accomplishment. That desire would be defeated by this clause, which was obviously intended to apply to a little more than a few cups to be shot for. If the War Office was not prepared to pay all the expenses necessary to make a county association capable of maintaining the efficiency of its force, then they must have subscriptions from those who were desirous of maintaining the regiment in efficiency. If that was the intention of this Radical Government, it was time the country understood where they were in regard to the matter. He thought the remarks of the right hon. Gentleman contrasted very unfavourably with the hopes which he had held out to them, and that even the very short time which had been allowed to them to discuss this very wide issue had more than shown the need of the Amendment, the rejection of which would cause very considerable dissatisfaction in the country.

And, it being half-past Ten of the clock, the Chairman proceeded, pursuant to the Order of the House of 6th May, to put forthwith the Question on the Amendment already proposed from the Chair.

Question put, "That Sub-section (4) stand part of the clause."

The Committee divided:—Ayes, 307; Noes, 94. (Division List No. 191.)

AYES.
Abraham, William (Rhondda)	Berridge, T. H. D.	Cawley, Sir Frederick
Acland, Francis Dyke	Bethell, Sir J. H. (Essex, R'mford	Chance, Frederick William
Adkins, W. Ryland D.	Bethell, T. R. (Essex, Maldon)	Channing, Sir Francis Allston
Agnew, George William	Billson, Alfred	Cheetham, John Frederick
Ainsworth, John Stirling	Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine	Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R.
Allen, A. Acland (Christchurch)	Black, Arthur W.	Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston S.
Allen, Charles P. (Stroud)	Boulton, A. C. F.	Clarke, C. Goddard (Peckham)
Armstrong, W. C. Heaton	Bowerman, C W.	Cleland, J. W.
Asquith, Rt. Hn. Herbert Henry	Brace, William	Clough, William
Astbury, John Meir	Bramsdon, T. A.	Clynes, J. R.
Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth)	Brigg, John	Coats, Sir T. Glen (Renfrew, W.)
Baker, Joseph A. (Finsbury, E.)	Brodie, H. C.	Collins, Stephen (Lambeth)
Balfour, Robert (Lanark)	Brooke, Stopford	Collins, Sir Wm. J. (S. Pancras, W
Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight)	Brunner, J. F. L. (Lancs., Leigh)	Cooper, G. J.
Barker, John	Bryce, J. Annan	Corbett, C. H (Sussex, E. Grinst'd
Barlow, John Emmott (S'mers't	Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn	Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.
Barlow, Percy (Bedford)	Buckmaster, Stanley O.	Cotton, Sir H. J. S.
Barnard, E. B.	Burns, Rt. Hon. John	Cowan, W. H.
Barnes, G. N.	Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas	Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth)
Barran, Rowland Hirst	Buxton, Rt. Hn. Sydney Charles	Cremer, William Randal
Beauchamp, E.	Byles, William Pollard	Crombie, John William
Bell, Richard	Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.	Crooks, William
Bellairs, Carlyon	Carr-Gomm, H. W.	Crosfield, A. H.
Benn, W. (T'w'r Hamlets, S. Geo.	Causton, Rt. Hn. Richard Knight	Davies, David (Montgomery Co.
Davies, Ellis William (Eifion)	Jones, Leif (Appleby)	Price, Robert John (Norfolk, E.)
Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardigan	Jones, William (Carnarvonshire	Priestley, Arthur (Grantham)
Davies, Timothy (Fulham)	Jowett, F. W.	Priestley, W. E. B. (Bradford, E.)
Davies, W. Howell (Bristol, S.)	Kearley, Hudson E.	Radford, G. H.
Dewar, Arthur (Edinburgh, S.)	Kekewich, Sir George	Raphael, Herbert H.
Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh.	Kincaid-Smith, Captain	Rea, Russell (Gloucester)
Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness)	King, Alfred John (Knutsford)	Rea, Walter Russell (Scarboro'
Dunne, Major E. Martin (Wals'll	Laidlaw, Robert	Rendall, Athelstan
Edwards, Clement (Denbigh)	Lamb, Edmund G. (Leominster	Richards, Thomas (W. Monm'th
Edwards, Enoch (Hanley)	Lamb, Ernest H. (Rochester)	Richards, T. F. (Wolverh'mpt'n
Edwards, Frank (Radnor)	Lambert, George	Richardson, A.
Elibank, Master of	Lamont, Norman	Rickett, J. Compton
Erskine, David C.	Layland-Barratt, Francis	Roberts, G. H. (Norwich)
Essex, R. W.	Lea, Hugh Cecil (St. Pancras, E.)	Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)
Esslemont, George Birnie	Lehmann, R. C.	Robertson, Rt. Hn. E. (Dundee)
Evans, Samuel T.	Lever, A. Levy (Essex, Harwich)	Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside)
Eve, Harry Trelawney	Levy, Maurice	Robinson, S.
Everett, R. Lacey	Lewis, John Herbert	Roe, Sir Thomas
Fenwick, Charles	Lloyd-George, Rt. Hon. David	Rogers, F. E. Newman
Ferens, T. R.	Lough, Thomas	Rowlands, J.
Ferguson, R. C. Munro	Lupton, Arnold	Russell, T. W.
Findlay, Alexander	Luttrell, Hugh Fownes	Rutherford, V. H. (Brentford)
Foster, Rt. Hon. Sir Walter	Lyell, Charles Henry	Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)
Fuller, John Michael F.	Lynch, H. B.	Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel)
Fullerton, Hugh	Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester)	Schwann, C. Duncan (Hyde)
Gibb, James (Harrow)	Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk B'ghs)	Schwann, Sir C. E. (Manchester)
Gill, A. H.	Mackarness, Frederic C.	Sears, J. E.
Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herbert John	Maclean, Donald	Seaverns, J. H.
Glover, Thomas	Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.	Seddon, J.
Goddard, Daniel Ford	Macpherson, J. T.	Shackleton, David James
Gooch, George Peabody	M'Callum, John M.	Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)
Grant, Corrie	M'Crae, George	Shaw, Rt. Hon. T. (Hawick, B.)
Greenwood, G. (Peterborough)	M'Laren, Sir C. B. (Leicester)	Sherwell, Arthur James
Greenwood, Hamar (York)	M'Laren, H. D. (Stafford, W.)	Shipman, Dr. John G.
Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward	M'Micking, Major G.	Silcock, Thomas Ball
Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill	Mallet, Charles E.	Simon, John Allsebrook
Gulland, John W.	Manfield, Harry (Northants)	Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie
Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton	Mansfield, H. Rendall (Lincoln)	Soames, Arthur Wellesley
Haldane, Rt. Hon. Richard B.	Markham, Arthur Basil	Spicer, Sir Albert
Harcourt, Right Hon. Lewis	Marnham, F. J.	Stanger, H. Y.
Hardy, George A. (Suffolk)	Mason, A. E. W. (Coventry)	Stanley, H. A. Lyulph (Chesh.)
Harmsworth, R. L. (Caithn'ss-sh	Massie, J.	Steadman, W. C.
Hart-Davies, T.	Masterman, C. F. G.	Stewart, Halley (Greenock)
Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale)	Micklem, Nathaniel	Stewart-Smith, D. (Kendal)
Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N. E.	Molteno, Percy Alport	Strachey, Sir Edward
Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth)	Mond, A.	Straus, B. S. (Mile End)
Haworth, Arthur A.	Morgan, G. Hay (Cornwall)	Strauss, E. A. (Abingdon)
Hedges, A. Paget	Morrell, Philip	Stuart, James (Sunderland)
Helme, Norval Watson	Morse, L. L.	Sutherland, J. E.
Hemmerde, Edward George	Morton, Alpheus Cleophas	Taylor, John W. (Durham)
Henderson, Arthur (Durham)	Murray, James	Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.)
Henderson, J. M. (Aberdeen, W.)	Myer, Horatio	Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.)
Henry, Charles S.	Napier, T. B.	Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr
Herbert, Colonel Ivor (Mon., S.	Newnes, Sir George (Swansea)	Thomasson, Franklin
Higham, John Sharp	Nicholls, George	Thompson, J. W. H. (Somerset, E
Hobhouse, Charles E. H.	Nicholson, Chas. N. (Doncast'r	Thorne, William
Hodge, John	Norton, Capt. Cecil William	Tomkinson, James
Holden, E. Hopkinson	Nussey, Thomas Willans	Torrance, Sir A. M.
Holland, Sir William Henry	Nuttall, Harry	Toulmin, George
Holt, Richard Durning	O'Donnell, C. J. (Walworth)	Trevelyan, Charles Philips
Hooper, A. G.	O'Grady, J.	Verney, F. W.
Horniman, Emslie John	Parker, James (Halifax)	Walker, H. De R. (Leicester)
Horridge, Thomas Gardner	Partington, Oswald	Walsh, Stephen
Howard, Hon. Geoffrey	Paul, Herbert	Walters, John Tudor
Hudson, Walter	Paulton, James Mellor	Walton, Sir John L. (Leeds, S.)
Hutton, Alfred Eddison	Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek)	Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)
Hyde, Clarendon	Pearce, William (Limehouse)	Ward, John (Stoke upon Trent)
Idris, T. H. W.	Pearson, Sir W. D. (Colchester)	Wardle, George J.
Illingworth, Percy H.	Philipps, J. Wynford (Pembroke	Waring, Walter
Isaacs, Rufus Daniel	Pickersgill, Edward Hare	Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan)
Jacoby, Sir James Alfred	Pirie, Duncan V.	Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney)
Johnson, W. (Nuneaton)	Pollard, Dr.	Waterlow, D. S.
Jones, Sir D. Brynmor (Swansea)	Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central)	Watt, Henry A.

Wedgwood, Josiah C.	Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)	Winfrey, R.
White, J. D. (Dumbartonshire)	Wills, Arthur Walters	Wood, T. M'Kinnon
White, Luke (York, E.R.)	Wilson, Hon. C. H. W. (Hull, W.
Whitehead, Rowland	Wilson, John (Durham, Mid)	TELLERS FOR THE AYES—
Whitley, John Henry (Halifax)	Wilson, J. H. (Middlesbrough)	Mr. Whiteley and Mr. J. A. Pease.
Whittaker, Sir Thomas Palmer	Wilson, P. W. (St. Pancras, S.)
Wiles, Thomas	Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)
NOES.
Acland-Hood, Rt. Hn. Sir Alex. F	Fardell, Sir T. George	Nicholson, Wm. G. (Petersfield)
Anson, Sir William Reynell	Fell, Arthur	Nield, Herbert
Anstruther-Gray, Major	Fetherstonhaugh, Godfrey	Parkes, Ebenezer
Aubrey-Fletcher, Rt. Hn. Sir H.	Fletcher, J. S.	Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington
Balcarres, Lord	Forster, Henry William	Percy, Earl
Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (City Lond.	Gibbs, G. A. (Bristol, West)	Powell, Sir Francis Sharp
Banbury, Sir Frederick George	Haddock, George R.	Randles, Sir John Scurrah
Baring, Capt. H. G. (Winchester	Hamilton, Marquess of	Ratclilf, Major R. F.
Barrie, H. T. (Londonderry, N.	Hardy, Laurence (Kent, Ashford	Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel
Beckett, Hon. Gervase	Harrison-Broadley, H. B.	Remnant, James Farquharson
Bignold, Sir Arthur	Hay, Hon. Claude George	Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall
Bowles, G. Stewart	Hervey, F. W. F. (Bury S. Edm'ds	Salter, Arthur Clavell
Boyle, Sir Edward	Hill, Sir Clement (Shrewsbury)	Smith, F. E. (Liverpool, Walton
Bridgeman, W. Clive	Houston, Robert Paterson	Starkey, John R.
Bull, Sir William James	Hunt, Rowland	Stone, Sir Benjamin
Butcher, Samuel Henry	Kenyon-Slaney, Rt, Hn. Col. W.	Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)
Campbell, Rt, Hon. J. H. M.	Keswick, William	Talbot, Rt. Hn. J.G. (Oxf'dUniv
Carlile, E. Hildred	Kimber, Sir Henry	Thomson, W. Mitchell-(Lanark)
Cave, George	King, Sir Henry Seymour (Hull)	Thornton, Percy M.
Cavendish, Rt. Hn. Victor C. W.	Law, Andrew Bonar (Dulwich)	Tuke, Sir John Batty
Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)	Lee, Arthur H. (Hants., Fareh'm	Valentia, Viscount
Cecil, Lord John P. Joieey	Lockwood, Rt. Hn. Lt. -Col. A. R	Walker, Col. W. H. (Lancashire)
Chamberlain, Rt Hn. J. A. (Wore.	Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham	Walrond, Hon. Lionel
Coates, E. Feetham (Lewisham)	Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Dublin, S.	Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.)
Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.	Lonsdale, John Brownlee	Willoughby de Eresby, Lord
Collings, Rt. Hn. J. (Birm'gham)	Lowe, Sir Francis William	Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E. R.)
Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)	Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred	Wortley, Rt, Hon. C. B. Stuart
Courthope, G. Loyd	Magnus, Sir Philip	Younger, George
Craig, Chas. Curtis (Antrim, S.)	Marks, H. H. (Kent)
Craik, Sir Henry	Mason, James F. (Windsor)	TELLERS FOR THE NOES—
Dalrymple, Viscount	Mildmay, Francis Bingham	Viscount Castlereagh and
Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers	Moore, William	Captain Craig.
Duncan, Robert (Lanark, Govan	Morpeth, Viscount

The Chairman then proceeded to put successively the Questions necessary to dispose of the business to be concluded.

The Committee divided:—Ayes, 298; Noes, 102. (Division List No. 192.)

AYES.
Abraham, William (Rhondda)	Barran, Rowland Hirst	Bryce, J. Annan
Acland, Francis Dyke	Beauchamp, E.	Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn
Adkins, W. Ryland D.	Bell, Richard	Buckmaster, Stanley O.
Agnew, George William	Bellairs, Carlyon	Burns, Rt. Hon. John
Ainsworth, John Stirling	Benn, W. (T' w' r Hamlets, S. Geo.	Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas
Allan, A. Acland (Christchurch)	Berridge, T. H. D.	Buxton, Rt. Hn. Sydney Charles
Allen, Charles P. (Stroud)	Bethell, Sir J K. (Essex, Romford	Byles, William Pollard
Armstrong, W. C. Heaton	Bethell, T. R. (Essex, Maldon)	Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.
Asquith, Rt. Hn. Herbert Henry	Billson, Alfred	Carr-Gomm, H. W.
Astbury, John Meir	Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine	Causton, Rt. Hn. Richard Knight
Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth)	Black, Arthur W.	Cawley, Sir Frederick
Baker, Joseph A. (Finsbury, E.)	Boulton, A. C. F.	Chance, Frederick William
Balfour, Robert (Lanark)	Bowerman, C. W.	Channing, Sir Francis Allston
Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight)	Brace, William	Cheetham, John Frederick
Barker, John	Bramsdon, T. A.	Cherry, Rt, Hon. R. R.
Barlow, John Emmott (Somers't	Brigg, John	Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston S.
Barlow, Percy (Bedford)	Brodie, H. C.	Clarke, C. Goddard (Peckham)
Barnard, E. B.	Brooke, Stopford	Cleland, J. W.
Barnes, G. N.	Brunner, J. F. L. (Lanes., Leigh)	Clough, William

Question put, "That the clause stand part of the Bill."

Clause 4:

The Committee divided:—Ayes, 298; Noes, 103. (Division List No. 193.)

AYES.
Abraham, William (Rhondda)	Barran, Rowland Hirst	Bryce, J. Annan
Acland, Francis Dyke	Beauchamp, E.	Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn
Adkins, W. Ryland D.	Bell, Richard	Buckmaster, Stanley O.
Agnew, George William	Bellairs, Carlyon	Burns, Rt. Hon. John
Ainsworth, John Stirling	Benn, W. (T' w' r Hamlets, S. Geo.	Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas
Allan, A. Acland (Christchurch)	Berridge, T. H. D.	Buxton, Rt. Hn. Sydney Charles
Allen, Charles P. (Stroud)	Bethell, Sir J K. (Essex, Romford	Byles, William Pollard
Armstrong, W. C. Heaton	Bethell, T. R. (Essex, Maldon)	Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.
Asquith, Rt. Hn. Herbert Henry	Billson, Alfred	Carr-Gomm, H. W.
Astbury, John Meir	Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine	Causton, Rt. Hn. Richard Knight
Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth)	Black, Arthur W.	Cawley, Sir Frederick
Baker, Joseph A. (Finsbury, E.)	Boulton, A. C. F.	Chance, Frederick William
Balfour, Robert (Lanark)	Bowerman, C. W.	Channing, Sir Francis Allston
Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight)	Brace, William	Cheetham, John Frederick
Barker, John	Bramsdon, T. A.	Cherry, Rt, Hon. R. R.
Barlow, John Emmott (Somers't	Brigg, John	Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston S.
Barlow, Percy (Bedford)	Brodie, H. C.	Clarke, C. Goddard (Peckham)
Barnard, E. B.	Brooke, Stopford	Cleland, J. W.
Barnes, G. N.	Brunner, J. F. L. (Lanes., Leigh)	Clough, William
Clynes, J. R.	Holt, Richard Durning	Partington, Oswald
Coats Sir T. Glen (Renfrew, W.)	Horniman, Emslie John	Paul, Herbert
Collins, Stephen (Lambeth)	Horridge, Thomas Gardner	Paulton, James Mellor
Collins, Sir Wm. J. (S. Pancras, W.	Howard, Hon. Geoffrey	Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek)
Cooper, G. J.	Hudson, Walter	Pearce, William (Limehouse)
Corbett, CH. (Sussex, E. Gr'st'd	Hutton, Alfred Eddison	Pearson, Sir W. D. (Colchester)
Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.	Hyde, Clarendon	Philipps, J. Wynford (Pembroke
Cotton, Sir H. J. S.	Idris, T. H. W.	Philipps, Owen C. (Pembroke)
Cowan, W. H.	Illingworth, Percy H.	Pickersgill, Edward Hare
Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth)	Isaacs, Rufus Daniel	Pirie, Duncan V.
Cremer, William Randal	Jacoby, Sir James Alfred	Pollard, Dr.
Crombie, John William	Johnson, W. (Nuneaton)	Price, C. E. (Edinb'gh, Central)
Crooks, William	Jones, Sir D. Brynmor (Swansea	Price, Robert John (Norfolk, E.)
Crosfield, A. H.	Jones, Leif (Appleby)	Priestley, Arthur (Grantham)
Davies, David (Montgomery Co.	Jones, William (Carnarvonshire	Priestley, W. E. B. (Bradford, E.)
Davies, Ellis William (Eifion)	Jowett, F. W.	Radford, G. H.
Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardigan)	Kearley, Hudson E.	Raphael, Herbert H.
Davies, Timothy (Fulham)	Kekewich, Sir George	Rea, Russell (Gloucester)
Davies, W. Howell (Bristol, S.)	Kincaid-Smith, Captain	Rea, Walter Russell (Scarboro'
Dewar, Arthur (Edinburgh, S.)	King, Alfred John (Knutsford)	Rendall, Athelstan
Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh.	Laidlaw, Robert	Richards, Thomas (W. Monm'th
Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness)	Lamb, Edmund G. (Leominster)	Richards, T. F. (Wolverhampton
Dunne, Major E. Martin (Walsall	Lamb, Ernest H. (Rochester)	Richardson, A.
Edwards, Clement (Denbigh)	Lambert, George	Rickett, J. Compton
Edwards, Enoch (Hanley)	Lamont, Norman	Roberts, G. H. (Norwich)
Edwards, Frank (Radnor)	Layland-Barratt, Francis	Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)
Elibank, Master of	Lehmann, R. C.	Robertson, Rt. Hn. E. (Dundee)
Erskine, David C.	Lever, A. Levy (Essex, Harwich)	Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside)
Essex, R. W.	Levy, Maurice	Robinson, S.
Esslemont, George Birnie	Lewis, John Herbert	Roe, Sir Thomas
Evans, Samuel T.	Lloyd-George, Rt. Hon. David	Rowlands, J.
Eve, Harry Trelawney	Lough, Thomas	Russell, T. W.
Everett, R. Lacey	Lupton, Arnold	Rutherford, V. H. (Brentford)
Fenwick, Charles	Luttrell, Hugh Fownes	Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)
Ferens, T. R.	Lyell, Charles Henry	Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel)
Ferguson, R. C. Munro	Lynch, H. B.	Schwann, C. Duncan (Hyde)
Findlay, Alexander	Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester)	Schwann, Sir C. E. (Manchester)
Foster, Rt. Hon. Sir Walter	Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk B'ghs	Sears, J. E.
Fuller, John Michael F.	Mackarness, Frederic C.	Seaverns, J. H.
Fullerton, Hugh	Maclean, Donald	Shackleton, David James
Gibb, James (Harrow)	Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.	Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)
Gill, A. H.	M'Callum, John M.	Sherwell, Arthur James
Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herbert John	M'Crae, George	Shipman, Dr. John G.
Glover, Thomas	M'Laren, Sir C. B. (Leicester)	Silcock, Thomas Ball
Goddard, Daniel Ford	M'Laren, H. D. (Stafford, W.)	Simon, John Allsebrook
Gooch, George Peabody	M'Micking, Major G.	Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie
Grant, Corrie	Mallet, Charles E.	Soames, Arthur Wellesley
Greenwood, G. (Peterborough)	Manfield, Harry (Northants)	Spicer, Sir Albert
Greenwood, Hamar (York)	Mansfield, H. Rendall (Lincoln)	Stringer, H. Y.
Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward	Markham, Arthur Basil	Stanley, Hn. A. Lyulph (Chesh.)
Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill	Marks, G. Croydon (Launceston)	Steadman, W. C.
Gulland, John W.	Marnham, F. J.	Stewart, Halley (Greenock)
Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton	Mason, A. E. W. (Coventry)	Stewart-Smith, D. (Kendal)
Haldane, Rt. Hon. Richard B.	Massie, J.	Strachey, Sir Edward
Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Lewis	Masterman, C. F. G.	Straus, B. S. (Mile End)
Hardy, George A. (Suffolk)	Micklem, Nathaniel	Strauss, E. A. (Abingdon)
Harmsworth, R. L. (Caithness-sh	Molteno, Percy Alport	Stuart, James (Sunderland)
Hart-Davies, T.	Mond, A.	Sutherland, J. E.
Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale)	Morgan, G. Hay (Cornwall)	Taylor, John W. (Durham)
Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N.E.	Morrell, Philip	Tennant, Sir Edward (Salisbury
Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth)	Morse, L. L.	Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.)
Haworth, Arthur A.	Morton, Alpheus Cleophas	Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.)
Hedges, A. Paget	Murray, James	Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr
Helme, Norval Watson	Myer, Horatio	Thomasson, Franklin
Hemmerde, Edward George	Napier, T. B.	Thompson, J. W. H. (Somerset, E.
Henderson, Arthur (Durham)	Newnes, Sir George (Swansea)	Tomkinson, James
Henderson, J. M. (Aberdeen, W.)	Nicholls, George	Torrance, Sir A. M.
Henry, Charles S.	Nicholson, Charles N. (Donc'r)	Toulmin, George
Herbert, Colonel Ivor (Mon., S.)	Norton, Capt. Cecil William	Trevelyan, Charles Philips
Higham, John Sharp	Nussey, Thomas Willans	Verney, F. W.
Hobhoase, Charles E. H.	Nuttall, Harry	Walker, H. De R. (Leicester)
Holden, E. Hopkinson	O'Donnell, C. J. (Walworth)	Walton, Sir John L. (Leeds, S.)
Holland, Sir William Henry	Parker, James (Halifax)	Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

Ward, John (Stoke upon Trent)	White, Luke (York, E. R.)	Wilson, J. H. (Middlesbrough)
Wardle, George J.	Whitehead, Rowland	Wilson, P. W. (St. Pancras, S.)
Waring, Walter	Whitely, John Henry (Halifax)	Winfrey, R.
Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan)	Whittaker, Sir Thomas Palmer	Wood, T. M'Kinnon
Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney)	Wiles, Thomas
Waterlow, D. S.	Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)	TELLERS FOR THE AYES—
Watt, Henry A.	Wills, Arthur Walters	Mr. Whiteley and Mr. J. A. Pease.
Wedgwood, Josiah C.	Wilson, Hon. C. H. W. (Hull, W.)
White, J. D. (Dumbartonshire)	Wilson, John (Durham, Mid)
NOES.
Anson, Sir William Reynell	Fell, Arthur	Nield, Herbert
Anstruther-Gray, Major	Fetherstonhaugh, Godfrey	O'Grady, J.
Aubrey-Fletcher, Rt. Hn. Sir H.	Fletcher, J. S.	Parkes, Ebenezer
Balcarres, Lord	Forster, Henry William	Percy, Earl
Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (City Lond.	Gibbs, G. A. (Bristol, West)	Powell, Sir Francis Sharp
Banbury, Sir Frederick George	Haddock, George R.	Ratcliff, Major R. F.
Baring, Capt. Hn. G(Winchester	Hamilton, Marquess of	Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel
Barrie, H. T. (Londonderry, N.)	Hardy, Laurence (Kent, Ashford	Remnant, James Farquharson
Beckett, Hon. Gervase	Harrison-Broadley, H. B.	Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall)
Bignold, Sir Arthur	Hay, Hon. Claude George	Salter, Arthur Clavell
Bowles, G. Stewart	Hervey, F. W. F. (Bury S. Edm'ds	Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert
Boyle, Sir Edward	Hill, Sir Clement (Shrewsbury)	Seddon, J.
Bridgeman, W. Clive	Hodge, John	Smith, F. E. (Liverpool, Walton)
Bull, Sir William James	Houston, Robert Paterson	Starkey, John R.
Butcher, Samuel Henry	Hunt, Rowland	Stone, Sir Benjamin
Campbell, Rt. Hon. J. H. M.	Kenyon-Slancy, Rt. Hon. Col. W.	Talbot, Lord E (Chichester)
Carlile, E. Hildred	Keswick, William	Talbot, Rt. Hn. J. G. (Oxf'd Univ.
Castlereagh, Viscount	Kimber, Sir Henry	Thomson, W. Mitchell-(Lanark)
Cave, George	King, Sir Henry Seymour(Hull)	Thorne, William
Cavendish, Rt. Hn. Victor C. W.	Law, Andrew Bonar (Dulwich)	Thornton, Percy M.
Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)	Lea, Hugh Cecil (St. Pancras, E.	Tuke, Sir John Batty
Cecil, Lord John P. Joicey	Lee, Arthur H. (Hants., Fareham	Walker, Col. W. H. (Lancashire)
Chamberlain, Rt Hn. J. A. (Wore.	Lockwood, Rt. Hn. Lt-. Col. A. R.	Walrond, Hon. Lionel
Coates, E. Feetham (Lewisham)	Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham)	Walsh, Stephen
Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.	Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Dublin, S.)	Williams, Col. R, (Dorset, W.)
Collings, Rt. Hn. J. (Birmingham	Lonsdale, John Brownlee	Willoughby de Eresby, Lord
Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)	Lowe, Sir Francis William	Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E. R.)
Courthope, G. Loyd	Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred	Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)
Craig, Charles Curtis(Antrim, S.)	Macpherson, J. T.	Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart
Craig, Captain James(Down, E.)	Magnus, Sir Philip	Younger, George
Craik, Sir Henry	Marks, H. H. (Kent)
Dalrymple, Viscount	Mason, James F. (Windsor)	TELLERS FOR THE NOES—
Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers	Mildmay, Francis Bingham	Sir Alexander Acland-Hood and Viscount Valentia.
Duncan, Robert (Lanark, Govan	Moore, William
Faber, George Denison (York)	Morpeth, Viscount
Fardell, Sir T. George;	Nicholson, Wm. G. (Petersfield)

AYES.
Abraham, William (Rhondda)	Barker, John	Black, Arthur W.
Acland, Francis Dyke	Barlow, John Emmott (S'merset	Boulton, A. C. F.
Adkins, W. Ryland D.	Barlow, Percy (Bedford)	Bowerman, C. W.
Agnew, George William	Barnard, E. B.	Brace, William
Ainsworth, John Stirling	Barnes, G. N.	Bramsdon, T. A.
Allen, A. Acland (Christchurch)	Barran, Rowland Hirst	Brigg, John
Allen, Charles P. (Stroud)	Beauchamp, E.	Brodie, H. C.
Armstrong, W. C. Heaton	Bell, Richard	Brooke, Stopford
Asquith, Rt. Hn. Herbert Henry	Bellairs, Carlyon	Brunner, J. F. L. (Lancs, Leigh)
Astbury, John Meir	Berridge, T. H. D.	Bryce, J. Annan
Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth)	Bethell, Sir J. H. (Essex, Romf'rd	Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn
Baker, Joseph A. (Finsbury, E.	Bethell, T. R. (Essex, Maldon)	Buckmaster, Stanley O.
Balfour, Robert (Lanark)	Billson, Alfred	Burns, Rt. Hon. John
Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight)	Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine	Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas
Buxton, Rt. Hn. Sydney Charles	Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N. E.	Morse, L. L.
Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.	Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth)	Morton, Alpheus Cleophas
Carr-Gomm, H. W.	Haworth, Arthur A.	Murray, James
Causton, Rt. Hn. Richard Knight	Hedges, A. Paget	Myer, Horatio
Cawley, Sir Frederick	Helme, Norval Watson	Napier, T. B.
Chance, Frederick William	Hemmerde, Edward George	Newnes, Sir George (Swansea)
Charming, Sir Francis Allston	Henderson, Arthur (Durham)	Nicholls, George
Cheetham, John Frederick	Henderson, J. M. (Aberdeen, W.)	Nicholson, Charles N. (Doneast'r
Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R.	Henry, Charles S.	Norton, Capt. Cecil William
Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston S.	Herbert, Colonel Ivor (Mon., S.	Nussey, Thomas Willans
Clarke, C. Goddard (Peckham)	Higham, John Sharp	Nuttall, Harry
Cleland, J. W.	Hobhouse, Charles E. H.	O'Donnell, C. J. (Walworth)
Clough, William	Holden, E. Hopkinson	Parker, James (Halifax)
Clynes, J. R.	Holland, Sir William Henry	Partington, Oswald
Coates, Sir T. Glen (Renfrew, W.	Holt, Richard Durning	Paul, Herbert
Collins, Stephen (Lambeth)	Hooper, A. G.	Paulton, James Mellor
Collins, Sir Wm. J. (S. Pancras, W	Horniman, Emslie John	Pearce, Robert (Staffs., Leek)
Cooper, G. J.	Horridge, Thomas Gardner	Pearce, William (Limehouse)
Corbett, C. H. (Sussex, E. Gr'st'd	Howard, Hon. Geoffrey	Pearson, Sir W. D. (Colchester)
Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.	Hudson, Walter	Philipps, J. Wynford (Pembroke
Cotton, Sir H. J. S.	Hutton, Alfred Eddison	Philipps, Owen C. (Pembroke)
Cowan, W. H.	Hyde, Clarendon	Pickersgill, Edward Hare
Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth)	Idris, T. H. W.	Pirie, Duncan V.
Cremer, William Randal	Illingworth, Percy H.	Pollard, Dr.
Crombie, John William	Isaacs, Rufus Daniel	Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central)
Crooks, William	Jacoby, Sir James Alfred	Price, Robert John (Norfolk, E.)
Crosfield, A. H.	Johnson, W. (Nuneaton)	Priestley, Arthur (Grantham)
Davies, David (Montgomery Co.	Jones, Sir D. Brynmor (Swansea	Priestley, W. E. B. (Bradford, E.)
Davies, Ellis William (Eifion)	Jones, Leif (Appleby)	Radford, G. H.
Davies, M. Vaughan (Cardigan	Jones, William (Carnarvonshire	Raphael, Herbert H.
Davies, Timothy (Fulham)	Kearley, Hudson E.	Rea, Russell (Gloucester)
Davies, W. Howell (Bristol, S.)	Kekewich, Sir George	Rea, Walter Russell (Scarboro'
Dewar, Arthur (Edinburgh, S.)	Kincaid-Smith, Captain	Rendall, Athelstan
Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh.	King, Alfred John (Knutsford)	Richards, Thomas (W. Monm'h
Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.	Laidlaw, Robert	Richards, T. F. (Wolverh'mpt'n
Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness	Lamb, Edmund G. (Leominster	Richardson, A.
Dunne, Major E. Martin (Wals'll	Lamb, Ernest H. (Rochester)	Rickett, J. Compton
Edwards, Clement (Denbigh)	Lambert, George	Roberts, G. H. (Norwich)
Edwards, Enoch (Hanley)	Lamont, Norman	Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)
Edwards, Frank (Radnor)	Layland-Barratt, Francis	Robertsonm J. M. (Tyneside)
Elibank, Master of	Lehmann, R. C.	Robinson, S.
Erskine, David C.	Lever, A. Levy (Essex, Harwich)	Roe, Sir Thomas
Essex, R. W.	Levy, Maurice	Rogers, F. E. Newman
Esslemont, George Birnie	Lewis, John Herbert	Rowlands, J.
Evans, Samuel T.	Lloyd-George, Rt. Hon. David	Russell, T. W.
Eve, Harry Trelawney	Lough, Thomas	Rutherford, V. H. (Brentford)
Everett, R. Lacey	Lupton, Arnold	Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)
Fenwick, Charles	Luttrell, Hugh Fownes	Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel)
Ferens, T. R.	Lyell, Charles Henry	Schwann, C. Duncan (Hyde)
Ferguson, R. C. Munro	Lynch, H. B.	Schwann, Sir C. E. (Manchester)
Findlay, Alexander	Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester)	Sears, J. E.
Foster, Rt. Hon. Sir Walter	Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk B'ghs	Seaverns, J. H.
Fuller, John Michael F.	Mackarness, Frederic C.	Shackleton, David James
Fullerton, Hugh	Maclean, Donald	Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)
Gibb, James (Harrow)	Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.	Shaw, Rt. Hon. T. (Hawick, B.)
Gill, A. H.	M'Callum, John M.	Sherwell, Arthur James
Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herbert John	M'Crae, George	Shipman, Dr. John G.
Glover, Thomas	M'Laren, Sir C. B. (Leicester)	Silcock, Thomas Ball
Goddard, Daniel Ford	M'Laren, H. D. (Stafford, W.)	Simon, John Allsebrook
Gooch, George Peabody	M'Micking, Major G.	Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie
Grant, Corrie	Mallet, Charles E.	Soames, Arthur Wellesley
Greenwood, G. (Peterborough)	Manfield, Harry (Northants)	Spicer, Sir Albert
Greenwood, Hamar (York)	Mansfield, H. Rendall (Lincoln)	Stanger, H. Y.
Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward	Markham, Arthur Basil	Stanley, Hn. A. Lyulph (Chesh.)
Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill	Marks, G. Croydon (Launceston	Steadman, W. C.
Gulland, John W.	Marnham, F. J.	Stewart, Halley (Greenock)
Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton	Mason, A. E. W. (Coventry)	Stewart-Smith, D. (Kendal)
Haldane, Rt. Hon. Richard B.	Massie, J.	Strachey, Sir Edward
Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Lewis	Micklem, Nathaniel	Straus, B. S. (Mile End)
Hardy, George A. (Suffolk)	Molteno, Percy Alport	Strauss, E. A. (Abingdon)
Harmsworth, RL. (Caithn'ss-sh.	Mond, A.	Stuart, James (Sunderland)
Hart-Davies, T.	Morgan, G. Hay (Cornwall)	Sutherland, J. E.
Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale)	Morrell, Philip	Taylor, John W. (Durham)

Tennant, Sir Edward (Salisbury	Ward, John (Stoke upon Trent)	Willams, Osmond (Merioneth)
Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.)	Wardle, George J.	Wills, Arthur Walters
Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.)	Waring, Walter	Wilson, Hn. C. H. W. (Hull, W.)
Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr	Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan)	Wilson, John (Durham, Mid)
Thomasson, Franklin	Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney)	Wilson, J. H. (Middlesbrough)
Thompson, J.W.H. (Somerset, E.	Waterlow, D. S.	Wilson, P. W. (St. Pancras, S.)
Tomkinson, James	Watt, Henry A.	Winfrey, R.
Toulmin, George	Wedgwood, Josiah C.	Wood, T. M'Kinnon
Trevelyan, Charles Philips	White, J. D. (Dumbartonshire)
Verney, F. W.	White, Luke (York, E. R.)	TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr. Whiteley and Mr. J. A. Pease.
Walker, H. De R. (Leicester)	Whitehead, Rowland
Walters, John Tudor	Whitley, John Henry (Halifax)
Walton, Sir John L. (Leeds, S.)	Whittaker, Sir Thomas Palmer
Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)	Wiles, Thomas
NOES.
Anson, Sir William Reynell	Fardell, Sir T. George	Morpeth, Viscount
Anstruther-Gray, Major	Fell, Arthur	Nicholson, Wm. G. (Petersfield
Aubrey-Fletcher, Rt. Hn. Sir H.	Fetherstonhaugh, Godfrey	Nield, Herbert
Balcarres, Lord	Fletcher, J. S.	O'Grady, J.
Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (City Lond.	Forster, Henry William	Parkes, Ebenezer
Banbury, Sir Frederick George	Gibb, G. A. (Bristol, West)	Percy, Earl
Baring, Capt. Hn. G. (Winchester	Haddock, George R.	Ratcliff, Major R. F.
Barrie, H. T. (Londonderry, N.)	Hamilton, Marquess of	Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel
Beckett, Hon. Gervase	Hardy, Laurence (Kent, Ashford	Remnant, James Farquharson
Bignold, Sir Arthur	Harrison-Broadley, H. B.	Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall)
Bowles, G. Stewart	Hay, Hon. Claude George	Salter, Arthur Clavell
Boyle, Sir Edward	Hervey, F.W.F. (Bury S. Edm'ds	Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert
Bridgeman, W. Clive	Hill, Sir Clement (Shrewsbury)	Seddon, J.
Bull, Sir William James	Hodge, John	Smith, F. E. (Liverpool, Walton)
Butcher, Samuel Henry	Houston, Robert Paterson	Starkey, John R.
Byles, William Pollard	Hunt, Rowland	Stone, Sir Benjamin
Campbell, Rt, Hon. J. H. M.	Jowett, F. W.	Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)
Carlile, E. Hildred	Kenyon-Slaney, Rt. Hon. Col. W.	Talbot, Rt, Hn. J. G. (Oxf'd Univ.
Castlereagh, Viscount	Keswick, William	Thomson, W. Mitchell- (Lanark)
Cave, George	Kimber, Sir Henry	Thorne, William
Cavendish, Rt. Hon. Victor C. W.	King, Sir Henry Seymour (Hull	Thornton, Percy M.
Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)	Law, Andrew Bonar (Dulwich)	Tuke, Sir John Batty
Cecil, Lord John P. Joicey	Lea, Hugh Cecil (St. Pancras, E.	Walker, Col. W. H. (Lancashire)
Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. A. (Wore	Lee, Arthur H. (Hants., Fareham	Walrond, Hon. Lionel
Coates, E. Feetham (Lewisham	Lockwood, Rt. Hn. Lt.-Col. A. R.	Walsh, Stephen
Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.	Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham	Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.)
Collings, Rt. Hn. J. (Birm'gham)	Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Dublin, S.)	Willoughby de Eresby, Lord
Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)	Lonsdale, John Brownlee	Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E. R.)
Courthope, G. Loyd	Lowe, Sir Francis William	Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)
Craig, Charles Curtis (Antrim, S.	Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred	Wortley, Rt. Hn. C. B. Stuart
Craig, Captain James (Down, E.)	Macpherson, J. T.	Younger, George
Craik, Sir Henry	Magnus, Sir Philip
Dalrymple, Viscount	Marks, H. H. (Kent)	TELLERS FOR THE NOES—
Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers	Mason, James F. (Windsor)	Sir Alexander Acland-Hood and Viscount Valentia.
Duncan, Robert (Lanark, Govan	Mildmay, Francis Bingham
Faber, George Denison (York)	Moore, William

Question put, "That the clause stand part of the Bill."

Whereupon the Chairman left the Chair to make his Report to the House.

Committee report Progress; to sit again upon Monday next.

Adjourned at fourteen minutes after Eleven o'clock.