HC Deb 06 May 1907 vol 173 cc1438-66

Postponed Proceeding on Amendment to Question, "That the Committee stage and Report stage of the Territorial and Reserve Forces Bill, including the Financial Resolution relating thereto, shall be proceeded within the following manner:—(a) That Clauses 1 and 2 and the committee stage of the Financial Resolution be proceeded with and proceedings thereon brought to a conclusion on the first allotted day; (b) That the Report stage of the Financial Resolution and Clauses 3 and 4 be proceeded with and the proceedings thereon brought to a conclusion on the second allotted day; (c)That Clauses 5 to 7 be proceeded with and the proceedings thereon brought to a conclusion on the third allotted day; (d)That Clauses 8 to 12 be proceeded with and the proceedings thereon brought to a conclusion on the fourth allotted day; (e)That Clauses 13 to 27 be proceeded with and the proceedings thereon brought to a conclusion on the fifth allotted day; (f)That the remaining clauses of the Bill and the schedules, and any new Government clauses and any new Government schedules, and any other matter necessary to bring the Committee stage to a conclusion, be proceeded with and brought to a conclusion on the sixth allotted day, and that the Chairman report the Bill to the House without Question put; (g) That two allotted days be given to the Report stage of the Bill, and that new clauses and Clauses 1 to 15 of the Bill be proceeded with on the first of those allotted days and the proceedings thereon brought to a con conclusion on that day, and that the remaining clauses of the Bill and the schedules, and any other matter necessary to bring the Report stage to a conclusion, be proceeded with on the second of those allotted days and the proceedings thereon brought to a conclusion on that day.

After this Order comes into operation, any day (other than a Friday) shall be considered an allotted day for the purposes of this Order on which the Territorial and Reserve Forces Bill is put down as the first Order of the Day, or on which any stage of the Financial Resolution relating thereto is put down as the first Order of the Day, followed by the Bill.

At 10.30 p.m. on any allotted day on which proceedings on any business allotted to that day are to be brought to a conclusion, the Chairman or Speaker shall, if those proceedings have not already been brought to a conclusion, put forthwith the Question or Questions on any Amendment or Motion already proposed from the Chair, and shall next proceed successively to put forthwith the Question on any Amendments moved by the Government of which notice has. been given, but no other Amendments, and on any Question necessary to dispose of the business to be concluded, and in the case of Government Amendments or of Government new clauses or schedules, he shall put only the Question that the Amendment be made or that the clause or schedule be added to the Bill, as the ease may be.

At 11 p.m. on the day on which the Third Reading of the Bill is put down as first Order of the Day, or if that day is a Friday at 5 p.m., the Speaker shall put forthwith any Question necessary to complete the proceedings on that stage of the Bill.

Proceedings to which this Order relates shall not, on any allotted day on which proceedings or any business are to be brought to a conclusion under this Order, be interrupted under the provisions of any Standing Order relating to the Sittings of the House.

After the passing of this Order, on any day on which any proceedings on the Territorial and Reserve Forces Bill (including the Financial Resolution relating thereto) stand as first Order of the day, no dilatory Motion on the Bill, nor Motion for adjournment under Standing Order 10, nor Motion to postpone a clause, shall be received unless moved by a Minister of the Crown, and the Question on any such Motion shall be put forthwith without debate."—(Sir H Campbell-Banner-man.)—

Which Amendment was— In line 2, to leave out the words including the Financial Resolution relating thereto.' "—(Mr. Cavendish.)

Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question."

CAPTAIN CRAIG

said that in November. 1902, speaking on the question of the closure being applied to any financial measure, the present Prime Minister maintained that that procedure lessened the rights and privileges of the House of Commons and extended those of the Executive Government. If that was the view of the Prime Minister in 1902, they might be safe in saying that if the right hon. Gentleman had his own way the financial parts of this Bill would remain open for free discussion without having the guillotine applied to them. They recognised fully that in matters of this kind the Treasury would have the last word to say in regard to the distribution of the money from the Central Fund which was to be allocated to the different Auxiliary Forces. What had to be decided in the future was most complicated, and ample time should therefore be given for discussion. If the Secretary for War would only persuade the Prime Minister to drop the Irish Council Bill, which Ireland did not desire, there would then be more time to discuss fully this important question, which affected the whole of the United Kingdom, its Territorial Forces, and the defence of its shores.

SIR HOWARD VINCENT (Sheffield, Central)

said that discussion on the Financial Resolution, which entirely jeopardised the existence of the Auxiliary Forces, should not be curtailed. The debate ought to last two or three days. The criticism of the hon. Member for East Edinburgh and of the late Chief Secretary for Ireland had not been answered. It was perfectly scandalous that, when the expenditure of the taxpayers' money was in question, a time limit should be put to the debate. There was no precedent for it. He desired to protest in the strongest way possible against the way in which the Government were forcing the measure through the House by the curtailment of the privileges of Members.

LORD BALCARRES (Lancashire, Chorley)

said that the Secretary of State for War had told them that he was going to make another statement on the subject of the finance of the Bill, but the very frequency with which these statements followed one another was evidence of the confusion into which the Government had fallen. A Statement was of cardinal importance, and ought to be before the House and to have full discussion, which it certainly would not have under the proposed Resolution. He maintained that the scheme of the finance of the Bill had given, from the very start to now, an entirely wrong impression as to its cost. If such a statement had been put forward by a limited liability company, it would have been called a fraudulent prospectus. The right hon. Gentleman having given to the House and his Party the assurance that this new Parliament should scrutinise the finances of the country with the greatest care, he had not acted in accordance with his public pledges or private inclinations. The approximate Estimate was £2,750,000, but the Secretary of State for War apparently would not be held to that Estimate, but had come forward from time to time with certain proposals which would increase it. Therefore the Estimate which was laid before them was a delusion and entirely inadequate At the last moment, however, the right hon. Gentleman had promised them a new scheme, and he only hoped that it would be explained more clearly than some of his other proposals had been. They did not want any vague approximation, hut a precise statement of fact, which he thought the House of Commons was entitled to ask for. Therefore, he asked the right hon. Gentleman to let them have an opportunity of examining the scheme. The right hon. Gentleman had told them that half the points of interest could not be discussed on the Bill, but he did not think that it was his province to inform the House of Commons of that fact: it should have come from the Chairman of Committees. The right hon. Gentleman had said they could not discuss the question of adjutants, but if they could not discuss it on the Bill they could do so on the Estimates He thought the right hon. Gentleman's proposal on this subject was one of the gravest errors into which he was going to fall, and therefore he contended that they should have a full opportunity of discussing it. It appeared to him that in regard to the financial portion of the Bill, the right hon. Gentleman was going to destroy, not only the control of the House of Commons but the control of the Treasury over hundreds of thousands of pounds—indeed, a sum which would amount at least to two, three, or four millions. That was a subject with perhaps the least Party aspect of anything connected with the Bill, but it was certainly one of the most important, and he was convinced that there were Members in every quarter of the House and of every shade of opinion who would deeply regret any action of the Government which prevented duo discussion upon such a proposal for financial devolution. He thought it was a matter of immense gravity, especially as it was now admitted that the Financial Estimate was perfectly inadequate to the situation, and would not meet the whole of the liability in regard to the proposed Territorial Force. He therefore thought that they had a strong case for asking the Government to revise their decision, and he confessed that to his mind the speech of the Secretary of State was by no means convincing that the Government had done the right thing in this matter.

SIR F. BANBUEY (City of London)

hoped his hon. friend would not mind if he ventured to differ from him on one point. He had commenced his speech by saying, and he agreed with the noble Lord, that they had had sufficient memoranda from the Secretary of State for War. The noble Lord said that they had had fourteen of these memmoranda, but he should like fifteen, with time to discuss the last one. Therefore, he proposed to vote for the Amendment. As he understood the Resolution of the right hon. Gentleman, he proposed to take Clauses 1 and 2 and the Committee stage of the financial Resolution on the first allotted day, and speaking entirely as a taxpayer, and quite apart from the safety and the military needs of the Empire, he disapproved of the financial Resolution being dragged in at the tail end of an important discussion on Clauses 1 and 2.The financial Resolution certainly interested the taxpayer. He himself was not averse to paying what he considered to be a fair sum to maintain the Army, but he wanted to know before he was taxed that there was some chance of the money being properly spent. He understood that great military authorities like his hon. friend the Member for Sheffield and others, would take up the whole of the time of the first day in discussing military questions, and the result would be the taxpayer would have nothing to say in regard to the financial proposals. He had the greatest admiration for the right hon. Gentleman's savoir faire, but he thought the most difficult part of this Bill was the financial part, and that the Secretary of State had carefully arranged his proposals for closure by compartments so that the question which would meet with the greatest opposition from the -greatest number of Members would not be discussed at all. That might be all very well from the point of view of the right hon. Gentleman, but it was not all very well, but very ill, from the point of view of the taxpayer. He therefore appealed to the right hon. Gentleman to give them a separate day on which to discuss the financial Resolution. He thought it was a revolution in procedure to mix up the Committee Stage of the Bill with the Committee Stage of the financial Resolution. Hitherto there had not been any disposition or tendency towards obstruction on this Bill, and there was no necessity to make a new precedent. If there was any obstruction in Committee of Ways and Means in regard to the financial Resolution, it was always open to the right hon. Gentleman, who was a man of courage, to move the closure, which he had no doubt would under such circumstances be granted. When the right hon. Gentleman was going to revolutionise the whole scheme for the defence of the country, he ought to give the House an opportunity of dealing with the financial proposals, and himself an opportunity of showing that they would be successful.

MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN (Worcestershire, E.)

said he had hung back from taking part in the discussion because he had hoped that they were going to have some further utterance from the Treasury Bench. He thought the Amendment of his hon. friend was worthy of more consideration by the Government than they had yet given it, because it proceeded upon "their own principle, and was in harmony with their own declarations. What was it that his right hon. friend proposed? It was that, leaving intact all the rest of the closure procedure, the financial Resolution should be excluded from the Resolution. It was not part of the Prime Minister's original idea to send the financial clauses upstairs, and the fact that he foreshadowed as a part of the original proposal of sending the other parts upstairs, might be a reason for limiting the time on the discussion of those parts, but was no argument for limiting the discussion on the financial clauses. The right hon. Gentleman was on stronger ground when they considered, not only this Resolution, but his Amendment of the Rules of Procedure. In the latter case he drew a distinction between financial and other business, and insisted that the House ought to retain the full control that hitherto had existed over all financial business. But the financial Resolutions in this case were the very Resolutions on which he proposed to curtail the rights of discussion. Having succeeded a week or two ago in carrying through the House an abrogation of the rights of the House to discuss clauses in Committee, the Government now came down and attempted to abrogate the rights of the House to discuss the financial clauses of the first Bill introduced under the new procedure. Let the House remember that finance was the crux of this question. The greatest difficulty that all had to contend with was the financial difficulty, and if that were eliminated anybody who occupied the position of the right hon. Gentleman could provide an Army. Finance was the crux of the question, and yet they were to be limited in their discussion on the financial clauses. The finance of this Bill was serious. The right hon. Gentleman had issued many Papers to the House and had promised more. It was to be hoped those Papers would be more illuminating, and would afford a more solid basis for their proceedings. Hitherto, they had had only one estimate of the force of the right hon. Gentleman's measure, and that the right hon. Baronet the Member for the Forest of Dean, had torn to shreds and tatters, showing the House that the estimate upon which they were proceeding and which they thought was a true estimate was false, that they were living in a fool's paradise, and at an early date would be undeceived. It was not only that the estimate presented was untrustworthy, as the right hon. Gentleman would himself admit, but it did not represent what was in his mind at the present time. The right hon. Gentleman had already pledged himself to fresh expenditure, but in addition the right hon. Member for Derbyshire had raised a serious question about the control the House exercised through the Public Accounts Committee and Comptroller and Auditor-General over the money to be expended. The right hon. Gentleman might be prepared to suggest means which would meet the criticisms of his right hon. friend, but no one could deny the gravity and importance of the issue raised. But was the House to have no full opportunity of considering the new proposals? This Bill was a veritable chameleon and changed its colour every time it came before the House. If they looked at the intrinsic importance of the question, or to the general principles which the Government had laid down for the conduct of their financial business, or, again, if they looked to the justification urged by the Prime Minister for introducing the proposed form of closure by compartments at that stage of the Bill, everything pointed to the desirability—nay, to the necessity—of excepting the Financial Resolution, and no argument that had been used in support of the closure in general was germane to this particular proposal. He should certainly support his right hon. friend if he went to a division.

MR. HALDANE

said he was not entitled to speak again, but as there had been a general invitation to him to do so perhaps he might be allowed to reply to what had been said. He was sure that under the arrangement which had been made there was opportunity for complete discussion of the financial Resolution. The Committee stage of the Resolution would be taken on the first day, and the real debate upon it would come on Report, and also on the first sub-clause of Clause 3, which repeated the same thing over again, Therefore, on the second day they had both the Resolution and the clause, and ample opportunity for discussion. As the Prime Minister had said, they meant to apply the ordinary method of army finance to the business of the associations as regarded all sorts of money matters. They proposed under a system of careful inspection to require the certificate of the general officer commanding in camp for the expenditure which Parliament was asked to defray. In that way they should preserve the advantages and improve the system of Parliamentary control which existed to-day in the volunteer force. They were driven to something of that kind, otherwise the Territorial Army would be thrown into red-tapeism and correspondence about every item. He hoped that he had shown that they did not desire to curtail discussion on finance nor upon other matters. He had undertaken to lay a Paper on the Table of the House explaining those matters. The right hon. Gentleman had uttered a heresy which he confessed shocked him more than any other heresy in connection with this subject. The right hon. Gentleman had said, "If you want an efficient Army you must spend money." They had heard that doctrine again and again in the history of the British Army, and it had led to colossal failure. The great armies of the world, the army of Germany and the army of Japan, for instance, had been organised on a basis of frugality, and it was that frugality and the necessity for frugality which had given efficiency to the army administration of those two countries.

MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN

said he had never suggested that the mere spending of money would provide an efficient Army. He did not want to refer to the instances of Germany and Japan, where they had compulsory service, which made a great difference. "What he had said was that there were many ways of providing an efficient Army if money were no object, but the special difficulty of our problem was to provide an efficient Army on the volunteer principle.

MR. HALDANE

said he confessed that it was an enormous difficulty; but he feared that the right hon. Gentleman had been affected by the damning heresy in military matters that a lavish expenditure would secure an efficient Army. It was just the other way. He had asked German generals their experience on the point and they had told him that by carefully considering the expenditure and thinking out the organisation they got a really efficient Army and secured plenty of money for the things which were necessary. In regard to the fifteen day's camp the estimate was £1 70,000; but if his conjecture was right, and they stayed the fifteen days, the sum would be £130,000. That was one item. The other was the provision for the walking-out dress. At the present moment he estimated that at something like £300,000 more. He had pointed out

that the auxiliary forces at present cost £4,500,000, and that the Territorial Army, on a basis pretty lavishly calculated, worked out at £2,850,000. He believed the working out of the whole thing would leave him a margin on which he would be able to work. He did not think that he had in this House the character of being extravagant, and he believed the estimate he had placed before the House might be relied upon to this extent—that they would keep very close to the figures which had been given. In framing his Estimates he felt sure the House, notwithstanding its mood for economy, would force him up, and he had provided himself with a margin for such a contingency. The increased camp allowance and the walking-out dress which he had undertaken to give would absorb a considerable sum. But he believed the actual figures would work out very close to, if not actually at, the Estimate he had prepared.

MR. A. J. BALFOUR

said the right hon. Gentleman's most interesting speech was really conclusive in favour of the Amendment, for he had proved beyond question hew great was the importance of the financial clauses of the Bill. The right hon. Gentleman had got off his speech upon his proposals; but it would be out of order to reply, and they were not going to have full opportunity of reply hereafter. He thanked the right hon. Gentleman for what he had just told them, for he could not have supplied them with a stronger argument for letting the House have its full liberty of debate when those clauses came on.

Question put.

The House divided:—Ayes, 286; Noes, 87. (Division List No. 158.)

AYES.
Acland, Francis Dyke Barlow, Percy (Bedford) Billson, Alfred
Agnew, George William Barnes. G. N. Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine
Ainsworth. John Stirling Barry, E. (Cork. S.) Black, Arthur W.
Alden, Percy Barry, Redmond J. (Tyrone.N. Brace. William
Allen.A.Acland(Christchurch) Beauchamp, E. Bramsdon, T. A.
Armitage, R. Beck, A. Cecil Brigg, John
Armstrong, W. C. Heaton Bell, Richard Bright, J. A.
Ashton, Thomas Gair Bellairs, Carlyon Brocklehurst, W. B.
Astbury, John Meir Benn,W.(Tw'rHamlets,S.Geo. Brooke, Stopford
Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth) Bennett, E. N. Brunner, J. F. L.(Lancs. Leigh)
Baker,Joseph A. (Finsbury.E.) Berridge, T. H. D Brunner.RtHnSirJ.T(Cheshire
Balfour, Robert (Lanark) Bertram, Julius Bryce. J. Annan
Baring,Godfrey(Isle of Wight) Bethell.Sir J. H. (Essex.Rom'f rd Burns. Rt. Hon. John
Barlow, JohnEmmott(Somerset Bethell, T. R. (Essex, Maldon) Burnyeat, W. J. D.
Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas Henry, Charles S. Partington, Oswald
Buxton, Rt Hn Sydney Charles Herbert, T. Arnold (Wycombe) Paulton, James Mellor
Byles, William Pollard Higham, John Sharp Pearce, Robert (Staffs. Leek)
Cairns, Thomas Hobart, Sir Robert Pearson, Sir W. D. (Colchester)
Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H. Hobhouse, Charles E. H. Philipps, Col.Ivor(S'thampton)
Carr-Gomm, H. W. Hodge, John Philipps, J. Wynford(Pembroke
Causton, Rt. Hn. RichardKnight Holland, Sir William Henry Philipps, Owen C. (Pembroke)
Cawley, Sir Frederick Hooper, A. G. Pickersgill, Edward Hare
Chance, Frederick William Hope.W. Bateman(Somerset,N. Pollard, Dr.
Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R. Hudson, Walter Price, C. E. (Edinb'gh.Central)
Churchill, Winston Spencer Hutton, Alfred Eddison Price, Robt. John (Norfolk, E.)
Clarke, C. Goddard (Peckham) Hyde, Clarendon Priestley, Arthur (Grantham)
Cleland, J. W. Illingworth, Percy H. Priestley, W. E. B. (Bradford, E.)
Clough, William Isaacs, Rufus Daniel Radford, G. H.
Clynes, J. R. Jardine, Sir J. Rainy, A. Rolland
Cobbold. Felix Thornley Jenkins, J. Raphael, Herbert H.
Collins, Stephen (Lambeth) Johnson, W. (Nuneaton) Rea, Russell (Gloucester)
Cooper, G. J. Jones,Sir D.Brynmor(Swansea Rea, Walter Russell (Scarboro'
Corbett,CH(Sussex,E.Grinst'd Jones,William (Carnarvonshire Rendall, Athelstan
Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. Jowett, F. W. Richards, Thos. (W. Monm'th)
Cory, Clifford John Kearley, Hudson E. Richards, T.F. (Wolverh'mpt'n
Cotton, Sir H. J. S. Kekewich, Sir George Ridsdale, E. A.
Cowan, W. H. King, Alfred John (Knutsford) Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)
Cremer, William Randal Kitson, Rt. Hon. Sir James Roberts, G. H. (Norwich)
Crooks, William Laidlaw, Robert Robertson, Rt. Hn. E.(Dundee
Crosfield, A. H. Lamb, Edmund G. (Leominster Robertson,SirG.Scott(Bradf'rd
Crossley, William, J. Lamb, Ernest H. (Rochester) Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside)
Davies,David(MontgomeryCo. Lambert, George Robinson, S.
Davies, M.Vaughan-(Cardigan Lamont, Norman Robson, Sir William Snowdon
Davies, Timothy (Fulham) Lea.HughCecil (St.Pancras, E.) Roche, Augustine (Cork)
Delany, William Lehmann, R. C. Roe, Sir Thomas
Dewar, Arthur (Edinburgh,S.) Lever, A. Levy (Essex,Harwich Rose, Charles Day
Duckworth, James Lever, W. H. (Cheshire, Wirral Rowlands, J.
Duncan, C.(Barrow-in-Furness Levy, Maurice Runciman, Walter
Dunn, A. Edward (Camborne) Lewis, John Herbert Russell, T. W.
Dunne,MajorE.Martin(Walsall Lough, Thomas Samuel, Herbert L.(Cleveland)
Elibank, Master of Lynch, H. B. Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel)
Erskine, David C. Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester) Scarisbrick, T. T. L.
Essex, R. W. Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk B'ghs) Scott,A.H.(Ashton under Lyne)
Evans, Samuel T. Mackarness, Frederic C. Sears, J. E.
Eve, Harry Trelawney Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J. Seaverns., J. H.
Everett, R. Lacey Macpherson, J. T. Seddon, J.
Fenwick, Charles M'Crae, George Shaw, Rt. Hon. T. (Hawick B.)
Ferens, T. R, M'Kenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald Sherwell, Arthur James
Fiennes,Hon. Eustace M'Laren, H. D. (Stafford, W.) Shipman, Dr. John G.
Findlay, Alexander M'Micking, Major G. Silcock, Thomas Ball
Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry Maddison, Frederick Simon, John Allsebrook
Fuller, John Michael F. Mallet, Charles E. Spicer, Sir Albert
Fullerton, Hugh Manfield, Harry (Northants) Stanger, H. Y.
Gardner, Col. Alan(Hereford, S. Markham, Arthur Basil Stanley,Hn. A. Lyulph(Chesh.)
Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herbert John Marks,G.Croydon(Launceston) Stewart, Halley (Greenock)
Glover, Thomas Marnham, F. J. Stewart-Smith D. (Kendal)
Goddard, Daniel Ford Massie, J. Strachey, Sir Edward
Gooch, George Peabody Masterman, C. F. G. Summerbell, T.
Grant, Corrie Menzies, Walter Taylor, Austin (East, Toxteth)
Greenwood, G. (Peterborough) Micklem, Nathaniel Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)
Greenwood, Hamar (York) Molteno, Percy Alport Tennant, Sir Edward(Salisbury
Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward Mond, A. Thomas, Abel(Carmarthen, E.)
Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill Money, L. G. Chiozza Thomas, Sir A.(Glamorgan,E.)
Gulland, John W. Morgan, J. Lloyd(Carmarthen) Thomas, David Alf red(Merthyr)
Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton Morley, Rt. Hon. John Thomasson, Franklin
Haldane, Rt. Hon. Richard B. Morrell, Philip Thompson, J.W.H.(Somerset, E.
Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Lewis Morton, Alpheus Cleophas Tomkinson, James
Hart-Davies, T. Napier, T. B. Torrance, Sir A. M.
Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale) Newness, F. (Notts, Bassetlaw) Toulmin, George
Harwood, George Newnes, Sir George (Swansea) Ure, Alexander
Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth) Nicholson, Chas. N. (Doncast'r Verney, F. W.
Haworth, Arthur A. Norton, Capt. Cecil William Vivian, Henry
Hazel, Dr. A. E. Nussey, Thomas Willans Walker, H. De R. (Leicester)
Hedges, A. Paget Nuttall, Harry Walters, John Tudor
Hemmerde, Edward George O'Donnell, C.J. (Walworth) Walton, Sir John L. (Leeds, S.)
Henderson, Arthur (Durham) O'Grady, J. Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)
Henderson,J.M.(Aberdeen, W.) Parker, James (Halifax) Ward, John(Stoke upon Trent)
Ward, W. Dudley Southampton White, George (Norfolk) Wilson, John (Durham, Mid)
Wardle, George J. White, J. D. (Dumbartonshire) Wilson. J.W. (Worcestersh. N.)
Waring. Walter White, Lake (York, E.R.) Wilson, P. W. (St. Pancras, S.)
Wason. Eugene (Clackmannan) Whitehead, Rowland Wilson. W. T. (Westhoughton)
Wason, JohnCatheart(Orkney) Whitley. John Benry (Halifax) Winfrey, R.
Waterlow, D. S. Whittaker, Sir Thomas Palmer
Watt, Henry A. Wiles, Thomas TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr.
Wedgwood, Josiah C. Wilkie, Alexander Whiteley and Mr. J. A.
Weir, James Galloway Williams, J. (Glamorgan) Pease.
Whitbread, Howard Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)
NOES.
Anson. Sir William Reynell Craig, Capt. James (Down, E.) Morpeth, Visconut
Anstruther-Gray, Major Dalrymple. Viscount Nield, Herbert
Ashley. W. W. Doughty. Sir George Pease.HerbertPike(Darlington)
Aubrey-Fletcher,Rt.Hn.Sir H. Douglas. Rt. Hon.A. Akers- Rawlinson. John Frederick Peel
Balcarres. Lord Faber, George Denison (York) Roberts. S.(Sheffield,Ecclesall)
Balfour.Rt. Hn.A.J.(CityLond. Faber. Capt. W. V. (Hants, W.) Rothschild, Hon. Lionel Walter
Banbury. Sir Frederick George Fell, Arthur Rutherford, John (Lancashire)
Banner. John S. Harmood- Finch, Rt. Hon. George H. Rutherford. W. W. (Liverpool)
Barrie H T (Londonderry, N. Forster. Henry William Salter. Arthur Clavell
Beach.Hn. Michael Hugh Hicks Gordon. J. Sandys. Lieut-Col. Thos. Myles
Beckett. Hon. Gervase Haddock. George R. Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone. W.)
Bignold, Sir Arthur Hamilton. Marquess of Sheffield, Sir Berkeley George
Boyle. Sir Edward Hardy. Laurence(Kent.Ashford Smith, Abel H.(Hertford. East)
Bowles, G. Stewart Harrison-Broadley, H. B. Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)
Bridgeman. W. Clive Hay, Hon. Claude George Stanley. Hn. Arthur (Ormskirk
Bull, Sir William James Hervey.F. W. F. Bury.S. Ed m'ds Starkey. John R.
Burdett-Coutts. W. Hill,Sir Clement (Shrewsbury) Staveley-Hill, Henry (Staffs'h.)
Butcher. Samuel Henry Houston, Robert Paterson Talbot. Lord E. (Chichester)
Carlile. E. Hildred Kenyon-Slaney,Rt. Hon. Col. W Thornton. Percy M.
Castlereagh. Viscount Keswick, William Vincent, Col. Sir C. E. Howard
Cavendish. Rt.Hn.VictorC. W. Lambton. Hon. Frederick Wm. Walrond, Hon. Lionel
Cecil. Evelyn (Aston Manor) Lane-Fox, G. R, Wilson. A. Stanley(York.E.R.)
Cecil Lord R. (Marylebone, E.) Law, Andrew Bonar (Dulwich) Wortley.Rt. Hn C B. Stuart-
Chamberlain,Rt.Hn.J. A.(Wore Lockwood.Rt.Hn.Col.-Lt.A.R. Wyndham Rt. Hon. George
Channing. Sir Francis Allston Long, Col. Chas. W. (Evesham) Younger, George
Cheetham. John Frederick Long.Rt. Hn. Walter(Dublin.S.
Clark. GeorgeSmith(Belfast.N. Lonsdale. John Brownlee TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Sir
Cochrane.Hon. Thos. H. A. E. Marks, H. H. (Kent) Alexander Acland-Hood and
Corbett, T. L. (Down, North) Mason, James F. (Windsor) Viscount Valentia.
Court hope, G. Loyd Mildmay, Francis Bingham
Craig; Chas. Curtis (Antrim, S.) Moore, William
MR. WYNDHAM

moved an Amendment which he said he would explain without reading. Assuming that the Government allocated two days to clauses from 1 to 4, inclusive of the financial Resolution, he asked that they should allow for the rest of the Bill one more day, that was five days altogether, and that during those five days they should give the House something approaching more nearly to freedom of discussion. Was it unreasonable to ask for one more day? The reply might be made that the principal points were in the first clauses of the Bill, and that the remaining clauses were not nearly of like importance. He ventured to say that in the judgment of the Leader of the Opposition, and those who acted with him, there were matters in the last thirty-four clauses of the Bill as important as, and perhaps more important than, the matter contained in the first four clauses of the Bill. Complete freedom of discussion they could not get under this Resolution oven if it were pissed in the amended form which he advocated. He urged that the critics of the Bill, friendly as well as hostile, should be the judges of what were the important clauses among the thirty-four remaining in the Bill. He thought that was a reasonable plea. The right hon. Gentleman was trying to minimise the importance of the Bill by saving that those clauses were only enabling clauses. They were enabling clauses for which there was no precedent at all, and which were dangerous when they were dealing with the future defences of the country. If they looked at the subject-matter of that part of the Bill, they would find that three questions of immense interest were involved—the organisation, the training, and the obligation to serve in the Auxiliary Forces. The Government under those thirty-four clauses took to themselves enabling powers so full that they could organise the Auxiliary Forces out of existence or as an amalgamated body, or as a Territorial Army, or as a special reserve. Critics, friendly as well as hostile, were entitled to choose the clauses which raised these important points. Full information should be given as to the organisation which the Government have decided ultimately to adopt. The Government said that the Territorial Force was to be; trained for fifteen days, but in a subsequent section power was taken to train that force for thirty days, and in another for eight days, or no days at all. On that matter the Bill gave the Government the widest possible latitude. Again, the really adequate training was only to be given after war had broken out, and not before. Further, under the Bill they gave themselves the enabling power to accept those forces for foreign service. Therefore the House was entitled to say that they should have full opportunities for discussion of Clauses 6 and 32 which dealt with organisation; of Clauses 11. and 12, which dealt with obligation to serve; and of Clauses 14 to 16, which dealt with training. His plea was that five days should be given to discuss those thirty-four clauses, which would make an average of seven clauses per day.

Amendment proposed— In line 10, to leave out from the word ' That,' to the word ' allotted,' in line 20, and insert the words ' the remaining Clauses of the Bill and the Schedules, and any new Government Clauses and any new Government Schedules, and any other matter necessary to bring the Committee stage to a conclusion, be proceeded with and brought to a conclusion on the seventh.' ''—(Mir. Wyndham.)

Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Resolution."

MR. HALDANE

said that the unhappy person who had to reply so frequently was in a very difficult position. The House had just finished a series of criticisms upon the importance of giving prominence to the financial aspect of the Bill and that more time should be given to it. Now the questions of importance were said to be organisation, training, and obligation to serve; and the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Dover proposed that the whole of the later stages of the Bill should be taken up with the discussion of those subjects. The fact was that while there was agreement as to Clause 1 being the most important part of the Bill—[OPPOSITION cries of "No."]—in the early parts of the discussion every Member of the Opposition agreed in differing as to the other subjects of importance to be selected for debate; there was no common basis of agreement. The scheme for the allotment of time had been carefully thought out, although nothing was perfect in this imperfect world. He repeated again that the Bill was a measure to give effect to plans which were set out at great length on the introduction of the Estimates, on the First Reading of the Bill, and were subject to a three days' discussion on Second Reading. What they had now to discuss in Committee was simply the instruments which were necessary to carry out those plans, it was too late to discuss the principle of the Bill in Committee. The real time to discuss the principle of the Bill was not in Committee, but on the First and Second Reading. For these reasons he was prepared to maintain that the allotment of time for the discussion of clauses in Committee was wise and most reasonable.

MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN

said they did not complain of the right hon. Gentleman being too brief. Nor did they complain of his being too prolix, but what they did find fault with was that the right hon. Gentleman gave the Opposition no opportunity of answering him by way of criticism after he had expounded his position. His noble friend the Member for Marylebone had pointed out that this was one more step, and a most noticeable and marked one, in the process of transferring to the Government the powers which had hitherto been vested in the House. That statement had been illustrated by what the right hon. Gentleman had just said. The Prime Minister, earlier in the evening, justified his right hon. friend by saying that the scheme had been carefully thought out by the Secretary of State and his advisers. He did not doubt it; but the House was entitled to think it out, and express an opinion upon it. The Secretary of State had said that not only had the scheme of Army reform been carefully thought out by him, but also the scheme for the allocation of the time to be devoted to its discussion. Thon the right hon. Gentle man said to them, in effect, "What more do you want," and apparently thought he

should be judge in his own cause, and the House of Commons were not expected to pronounce any opinion.

Question put.

The House divided:—Ayes, 293; Noes, 89. (Division List No. 159.)

AYES.
Acland, Francis Dyke Cory, Clifford John Hooper, A. G.
Agnew, George William Cotton, Sir H. J. S. Hope,W.Bateman(Somerset,N.
Ainsworth, John Stirling Cowan. W. H. Hudson, Walter
Alden, Percy Cremer, William Randal Hutton, Alfred Eddison
Allen, A. Acland (Christchurch) Crooks, William Hyde, Clarendon
Armitage, R. Crosfield, A. H. Illingworth, Percy H.
Armstrong, W. f. Heaton Crossley, William J. Isaacs, Rufus Daniel
Ashton, Thomas Gair Dalmeny, Lord Jardine, Sir J.
Astbury, John Heir Davies,David (Montgomery Co. Jenkins, J.
Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth) Davies, M Vaughan (Cardigan Johnson, W. (Nuneaton)
Baker.Joseph A.(Finsbnry, E.) Davies, Timothy (Fulham) Jones,SirD. Brynmor (Swansea)
Balfour, Robert (Lanark) Delany, William Jones,William (Carnarvonshire
.Baring,Godfrey (Isle of Wight) Dewar, Arthur (Edinburgh, S.) Jowett, F. W.
Barlow, Percy (Bedford) Duckworth, James Kearley, Hudson E.
Barnes, G. N Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness Kekewich, Sir George
Barry, E. (Cork, S.) Dunn, A. Edward (Camborne) Kincaid-Smith, Captain
Barry, Redmond J.(Tyrone,N.) Dunne,Major E. Martin(Walsall King,Alfred John (Knutsford)
Beale. W. P. Elibank, Master of Kitson, Rt. Hon. Sir James
Beauchamp, E. Erskine, David C. Laidlaw, Robert
Beck. A, Cecil Essex, R. W. Lamb, Edmund G.(Leominster
Bell, Richard Evans, Samuel T. Lamb, Ernest H. (Rochester)
Bellair, Carlyon Eve, Harry Trelawney Lambert, George
Benn.W.(T'w'r Hamlets, S.Geo Everett. R. Lacey Lamont, Norman
Berridge. T. H. D. Fenwick, Charles Lea,Hugh Cecil (St. Pancras,E.)
Bertram, Julius Ferens, T. R. Lehmann, R. C.
Bethell.Sir J. H.(Essex, Romf'rd Fiennes. Hon. Eustace Lever, A. Levy(Essex,Harwich
Bethell, T. R. (Essex, Maldon) Findlay, Alexander Lever,W.H. (Cheshire,Wirral)
Billson, Alfred Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry Levy, Maurice
Black, Arthur W. Fuller, John Michael F. Lewis, John Lewis
Bowerman, C. W. Fullerton. Hugh Lloyd-George, Rt. Hon. David
Brace. William Gardner,Col.Alan (Hereford.S.) Lough, Thomas
Bramsdon, T. A. Gladstone, Rt,Hn,Herbert John Lundon, W.
Brigg, John Glover, Thomas Lupton, Arnold
Brocklehurst, W. B. Goddard, Daniel Ford Lyell, Charles Henry
Brooke, Stopford Gooch, George Peabody Lynch, H. B.
Brunner,J.F.L.(Lancs.,Leigh) Greenwood, G. (Peterborough) Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester)
Brunner,Rt Hn Sir J.T.(Chesh. Greenwood, Hamar (York) Macdonald,J.M.(Falkirk B'ghs)
Bryce, J. Annan Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward Mackarness, Frederic C.
Burns, Rt. Hon. John Gust, Hon. Ivor Churchill Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.
Burnveat, W, J. D. Gulland, John W. Macpherson. J. T.
Burt, Rt, Hon. Thomas Gnrdon, Sir W. Brampton Mac Veigh Charles (Donegal,E.)
Buxton.Rt.Hn.Sydney Charles Haldane, Rt, Hon. Richard B. M'Crae, George
Byles, William Pollard Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Lewis M'Kenna, Rt Hon. Reginald
Cairns, Thomas Hart-Davies, T. M'Laren, H. D. (Stafford, W.)
Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H. Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale) M'Micking, Major G.
Carr-Gomm. H. W. Harwood, George Maddison, Frederick
Causton.Rt.Hn.Rich'rdKnight Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth) Mallet, Charles E.
Cawley, Sir Frederick Haworth, Arthur A. Manfield, Harry (Northants)
Chance, Frederick William Hazel, Dr. A. E. Markham, Arthur Basil
Cheetham, John Frederick Hedges. A. Paget Marks, G.Croydon (Launceston)
Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R, Hemmerde, Edward George Marnham F. J.
Churchill, Winston Spencer Henderson, Arthur (Durham) Massie J.
Cleland, J. W. Henderson, J.M.(Aberdeen, W.) Masterman, C. F. G.
Clough. William Henry, Charles S. Meagher, Michael
Clynes, J. R. Herbert, T. Arnold (Wycombe) Menzies, Walter
Cobbold, Felix Thornley Higham, John Sharp Mieklem, Nathaniel
Collins, Stephen (Lambeth) Hobart, Sir Robert Molteno, Percy Alport
Cooper, G. J. HobHouse. Charles, E. H. Mond, A.
Corbett,C.H(Sussex,E.Grinst'd Hodge, John Morgan,J.Lloyd (Carmarthen)
Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. Holland, Sir William Henry Morrell, Philip
Morton, Alpneus Ceopnas Roche, Augusune (Cork.) verney,F. W.
Napier, T. B. Roe, Sir Thomas Vivian, Henry
Newness, F. (Notts, Bassetlaw) Rose, Charles Day Walker, H. De R. (Leicester)
Newnes, Sir George (Swarsea) Rowlands, J. Walters, John Tudor
Nicholson.Charles N.(Doncast'r Runciman, Walter Walton,Sir John L. (Leeds, S.)
Norton, Capt. Cecil William Russell, T, W. Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)
Nussey, Thomas Willans Samuel,Herbert L.(Cleveland) Ward,John (Stoke upon Trent)
Nuttall, Harry Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel) Ward,W.Dudley (Southampt'n
O'Brien.Kendal(Tipperary,Mid Scarisbrick, T. T. L. Wardle, George J.
'O'Donnell, C. J. (Walworth) Scott,A.H.(Ashton under Lyne Waring, Walter
O'Grady, J. Sears, J. E. Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan)
Parker, James (Halifax) Seaverns, J. H. Wason,John Cathcart (Orkney)
Paulton, James Mellor Seddon, J. Waterlow, D. S.
Pearce, Robert (Staffs. Leek) Shaw, Rt. Hon. T. (Hawick B.) Watt, Henry A.
Pearson, Sir W.D. (Colchester) Sherwell, Arthur James Wedgwood, Josiah C.
Perks, Robert William Shipman, Dr. John G. Weir, James Galloway
Philipps.Col.Ivor (S'thampton) Silcock, Thomas Ball Whitbread, Howard
Philipps,J.Wynford (Pembroke Simon, John Allsebrook White, George (Norfolk)
Philipps. Owen C. (Pembroke) Sinclair, Rt. Hon. John White, J. D. (Dumbartonshire)
Pollard, Dr. Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie White, Luke (York, E. R.)
Price,C.E.(Edinburgh, Central) Spicer, Sir Albert Whitehead, Rowland
Price,Robert John (Norfolk,E.) Stanger, H. Y. Whitley.John Henry (Halifax)
Priestley, Arthur (Grantham) Stanley,Hn.A.Lyulph (Chesh.) Whittaker, Sir Thomas Palmer
Priestley,W.E.B. (Bradford, E. Stewart, Halley (Greenock) Wiles, Thomas
Radford, G. H. Strachey, Sir Edward Wilkie, Alexander
Rainy, A. Rolland Straus, B. S. (Mile End) Williams, J. (Glamorgan)
Raphael, Herbert H. Summerbell, T. Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)
Rea, Russell (Gloucester) Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth) Wills, Arthur Walters
Rea, Walter Russell (Scarbero' Taylor.Theodore C.(Radcliffe) Wilson, John (Durham, Mid)
Rendall, Athelstan Tennant,Sir Edward(Salisbury Wilson, J. W.(Worcestersh. N.)
Richards,Thomas (W.Monm'th Tennant, H. J. (Berwickshire) Wilson, P. W. (St. Pancras, S.)
Richards.T. F. (Wolverhampton Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen,E.) Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)
Ridsdale, E. A. Thomas,Sir A.(Glamorgan, E.) Winfrey, R.
Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln) Thomas.David Alfred (Merthyr Wood, T. M'Kinnon
Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.) Thomasson, Franklin Young, Samuel
Robertson.Sir G.Scott(Bradf'rd Thompson,J.W.H.(Somerset,E.
Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside) Tomkinson, James TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr.
Robinson, S. Toulmin, George Whiteley and Mr. J. A.
Robson, Sir William Snowdon Ure, Alexander Pease.
NOES.
Anson, Sir William Reynell Craig,Capt. James (Down, E.) Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred
Anstruther-Gray, Major Craik, Sir Henry M'Calmont, Colonel James
Ashley, W. W. Dalrymple, Viscount Marks, H. H. (Kent)
Aubrey- Fletcher,Rt.Hon.Sir H. Doughty, Sir George Mason, James F. (Windsor)
Balcarres, Lord Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- Mildmay, Francis Bingham
Banbury, Sir Frederick George Faber, George Denison (York) Moore, William
Banner, John S. Harmood Faber, Capt. W. V. (Hants, W.) Morpeth, Viscount
Barrie, H. T. (Londonderry, N. Fell, Arthur Nield, Herbert
Beach,Hn.Michael Hugh Hicks Finch, Rt. Hon. George H. Pease,Herbert Pike (Darlington
Beckett, Hon. Gervase Forster, Henry William Rawlinson,John Frederick Peel
Bowles, G. Stewart Gordon, J., Rothschild, Hon. Lionel Walter
Boyle, Sir Edward Haddock, George R. Rutherford, John (Lancashire)
Bridgeman, W Clive Hamilton, Marquess of Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool)
Burdett-Coutts, W.: Hardy,Laurence(Kent,Ashford Salter, Arthur Clavell
Butcher, Samuel Henry Harrison-Broadley, H. B. Sandys, Lieut.-Col. Thos. Myles
Carlile. E. Hildred Hay, Hon. Claude George Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)
Carson, Rt. Hn. Sir Edw. H. Helmsley, Viscount Sheffield,Sir BerkeleyGeorge D.
Castlereagh, Viscount Hervey,F.W.F.(BuryS.Edm'ds Smith, Abel H.(Hertford, East)
Cavendish,Rt.Hn. Victor C. W. Houston, Robert Paterson Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)
Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) Hunt, Rowland Stanley,Hon.Arthur(Ormskirk)
Cecil, Lord John P. Joicey- Kenyon-Slaney,Rt.Hn.Col. W. Starkey, John R.
Cecil, Lord R. (Marylebone, E.) Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm. Staveley-Hill, Henry (Staff'sh.
Chamberlain,Rt.Hn.J.A(Worc. Law, Andrew Bonar (Dulwich) Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)
Clark,George Smith (Belfast,N. Lee.Arthur H.(Hants., Fareh'm. Thomson,W.Mitchell- (Lanark)
Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E. Lockwood,Rt.Hn.Lt.-Col. A.R Thornton, Percy M.
Corbett, T. L. (Down, North) Long.Col.Charles W.(Evesham) Tunour, Viscount
Courthope, G. Loyd Long, Rt.Hn.Walter (Dublin.S. Vincent,Col. Sir C. E. Howard
Craig,Charles Curtis (Antrim.S. Lonsdale, John Brownlee
Walrond. Hon. Lionel Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Sir
Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.) Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George Alexander Acland-Hood and
Wilson,A.Stanley (York,E.R.) Younger, George Viscount Valentia.

Amendment proposed— In line 60, at the end, to add the words, 'After the passing of this order on any day on which any proceedings on the Territorial and Reserve Forces Bill, including the financial Resolution relating thereto, stand as first order of the day, no opposed private business shall be taken.'"—(Sir A. Acland-Hood.)

Main Question, as amended, put.

The House divided:—Ayes, 333; Noes, 81. (Division List No. 160.)

AYES.
Acland, Francis Dyke Collins, Stephen (Lambeth) Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Lewis
Agnew, George William Collins.Sir Wm.J.(S.Pancras,W Harmsworth, Cecil B. (Worc'r)
Ainsworth, John Stirling Cooper, G. J. Hart-Davies. T.
Alden, Percy Corbett, C.H.(Sussex,E.Gr'st'd Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale).
Allen, A.Acland (Christchurch) Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. Harwood. George
Ambrose, Robert Cory, Clifford John Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth).
Armitage, R. Cotton, Sir H. J. S. Haworth, Arthur A.
Armstrong, W. C. Heaton Cowan, W. H. Hayden, John Patrick
Astbury, John Meir Crean, Eugene Hazel, Dr. A. E.
Atherley-Jones, L. Cremer, William Randal Hazleton, Richard
Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth) Crooks, William Hedges, A. Paget
Baker.Joseph A. (Finsbury, E.) Crosfield, A. H. Hemmerde, Edward George
Balfour, Robert (Lanark) Crossley, William J. Henderson, Arthur (Durham)
Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight) Dalmeny, Lord Henderson,J.M. (Aberdeen, W.)
Barlow, Percy (Bedford) Davies,David (Montgomery Co. Henry, Charles S.
Barnard, E. B. Davies, M.Vaughan- (Cardigan Higham, John Sharp
Barnes, G. N. Davies, Timothy (Fulham) Hobart, Sir Robert
Barry, E. (Cork, S.) Delany, William Hobhouse, Charles E. H.
Barry, Redmond J. (Tyrone. N. Devlin, Joseph Hodge, John
Beale, W. P. Dewar, Arthur (Edinburgh, S. Hogan, Michael
Beauchamp, E. Dillon, John Holland, Sir William Henry
Beck, A. Cecil Dolan, Charles Joseph Hooper, A. G.
Benn,W.(T'w'r Hamlets,S. Geo Donelan, Captain A. Hope,W.Bateman(Somerset,N.
Berridge, T. H. D. Duckworth, James Horniman, Emslie John
Bertram, Julius Duffy, William J. Hudson, Walter
Bethell, Sir J.H. (Essex.Romf'd Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness Hutton, Alfred Eddison
Billson, Alfred Dunn, A. Edward (Camborne) Hyde, Clarendon
Black, Arthur W. Dunne,MajorE.Martin (Walsall Illingworth, Percy H.
Boland, John Elibank, Master of Isaacs, Rufus Daniel.
Bowerman, C. W. Erskine, David C. Jardine, Sir J.
Brace, William Essex, R, W. Jenkins, J.
Bramsdon, T. A. Esslemont, George Birnie Johnson, W. (Nuneaton)
Brigg, John Evans, Samuel T. Jones,Sir D.Brynmor (Swansea
Brocklehurst, W. B. Eve, Harry Trelawney Jones, William (Carnarvonshire
Brooke, Stopford Everett, R. Lacey Jowett, F. W.
Brunner,J.F.L. (Lancs., Leigh) Fenwick, Charles Joyce, Michael
Brunner.Rt.Hn. Sir J.T. (Ches. Ferens, T. R. Kearley, Hudson E.
Bryce, J. Annan Ffrench, Peter Kekcwich, Sir George
Burns, Rt. Hon. John Field, William Kettle, Thomas Michael
Burnyeat, W. J. D. Fiennes, Hon. Eustace Kincaid-Smith, Captain
Buxton.Rt.Hn. Sydney Charles Findlay, Alexander King, Alfred John (Knutsford)
Byles, William Pollard Flavin, Michael Joseph Kitson, Rt. Hon. Sir James
Cairns, Thomas Flynn, James Christopher Laidlaw, Robert
Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H. Fuller, John Michael F. Lamb, Edmund G. (Leominster
Carr-Gomm, H. W. Fullerton, Hugh Lamb, Ernest H. (Rochester)
Causton.Rt.Hn.RichardKnight Gardner.Col. Alan (Hereford.S. Lambert, George
Cawley,. Sir Frederick Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herbert J. Lamont, Norman
Chance, Frederick William Glover, Thomas Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, W.)
Cheetham, John Frederick Goddard, Daniel Ford Lea.Hugh Cecil (St.Pancras, E.
Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R. Gooch, GeorgePeabody Lehmann, R. C.
Churchill, Winston Spencer Greenwood, G. (Peterborough) Lever,A.Levy (Essex,Harwich),
Clancy, John Joseph Greenwood, Hamar (York) Lever, W. H. (Cheshire,Wirral),
Cleland, J. W. Gulland, John W. Levy, Maurice
Clough, William Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton Lewis, John Herbert
Clynes, J. R. Gywnn, Stephen Lucius Lloyd-George, Rt. Hon. David
Cobbold, Felix Thornley Haldane. Rt. Hon. Richard B. Lough, Thomas
Cogon, Denis J. Halpin, J. Lundon, W.
Lupton, Arnold Pearson, Sir W.D. (Colchester) Strachey, Sir Edward
Lyell, Charles Henry Pearson,W.H.M. (Suffolk, Eye) Straus, B. S. (Mile End)
Lynch, H. B, Perks, Robert William Summerbell, T.
Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester) Philipps.Col.Ivor (S'thampton) Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth)
Macdonald,J.M.(FalkirkBg'hs) Philipps,J.Wynford (Pembroke Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)
Mackarness, Frederic C. Philipps, Owen C. (Pembroke) Tennant,Sir Edward (Salisbury
Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J. Pickersgill, Edward Hare Tennant, H. J. (Berwickshire)
MacNeill, John Gordon Swift Pollard, Dr. Thomas,Abel (Carmarthen; E.)
Macpherson, J. T. Power, Patrick Joseph Thomas, Sir A.(Glamorgan, E.)
MacVeagh,Charles (Donegal,E. Price, C. E. (Edinb'gh, Central) Thomas,David Alfred(Merthyr
M'Crae, George Price.Robert John (Norfolk, E, Thomasson, Franklin
M'Kean, John Priestley, Arthur (Grantham) Thompson, J.W. H. (S'merset, E.
M'Kenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald Priestley.W.E.B. (Bradford.E.) Tomkinson, James
M'Killop, W. Radford, G. H. Toulmin, George
M'Laren, H. D (Stafford, W.) Rainy, A. Rolland,. Ure, Alexander
M'Micking, Major G. Raphael, Herbert H. Verney, F. W.
Maddison, Frederick Rea, Russell (Gloucester) Vivian, Henry
Mallet, Charles E. Rea, Walter Russell (Scarboro' Waldron, Laurence Ambrose
Manfield, Harry (Northants) Redmond, John E. (Waterford) Walker, H. De R. (Leicester)
Markham. Arthur Basil Redmond, William (Clare) Walters, John Tudor
Marks,G.Croydon(Launceston) Rendall, Athelstan Walton, Sir John L. (Leeds, S.)'
Marnham, F. J. Renton, Major Leslie, Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)
Massie, J. Richards, Thomas(W.Monm'th Ward, John (Stoke upon Trent)
Masterman, C. F. G. Richards, T.F.(Wolverhampt'n Waring, Walter
Meagher, Michael Ridsdale, E. A. Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan)
Menzies, Walter Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln) Wason, John Catheart(Orkney)
Micklem, Nathaniel Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.) Waterlow, D. S.
Molteno. Percy Alport Robertson.Sir G. Scott(Br'df'rd Watt, Henry A.
Mond, A. Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside) Wedgwood, Josiah C.
Mooney, J. J. Robinson, S. Weir, James Galloway
Morgan, G. Hay (Cornwall) Robson, Sir William Snowdon Whitbread, Howard
Morrell, Philip Roche, Augustine (Cork) White, George (Norfolk)
Morton. Alpheus Cleophas Roe, Sir Thomas White, J. D. (Dumbartonshire)
Napier, T. B. Rose, Charles Day White, Luke (York, E. R.)
Newnes, F. (Notts, Bassetlaw) Rowlands, J. White, Patrick (Meath, North)
Newnes, Sir George (Swansea) Russell, T. W. Whitehead, Rowland
Nicholson, Charles N.Doncas'r) Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland) Whitley, John Henry (Halifax)
Nolan, Joseph Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel) Whittaker, Sir Thomas Palmer
Norton, Capt. Cecil William Scarisbrick, T. T. L. Wiles, Thomas
Nugent, Sir Walter Richard Scott,A.H.(Ashton under Lyne Wilkie, Alexander
Nussey, Thomas Willams Sears, J. E. Williams, J. (Glamorgan)
Nuttall, Harty Seaverns, J. H. Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)
O'Brien,Kendal (TipperaryMid Seddon, J. Wills, Arthur Walters
O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) Shaw, Rt. Hon. T.(Hawick, B.) Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)
O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool) Sheehy, David Wilson, J.W.(Worcestersh.N.)
O'Doherty, Philip Sherwell, Arthur James Wilson, P. W. (St. Pancras S.)
O'Donnell, C. J. (Walworth) Shipman, Dr. John G. Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)
O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.) Silcock, Thomas Ball Winfrey, R.
O'Grady, J. Simon, John Allsebrook Wood, T. M'Kinnon
O'Hare Patrick Sinclair, Rt. Hon. John Young, Samuel
O'Kelly.James (Roscommon,N Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie
O'Shaughnessy, P. J. Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.) TELLERS FOR THE AYES—.
O'Shee, James John Spicer, Sir Albert Mr. Whiteley and Mr. J. A.
Parker, James (Halifax) Stanger, H. Y. Pease.
Paulton, James Mellor Stanley, Hn. A.Lyulph(Chesh.)
Pearee, Robert (Staffs. Leek) Stewart, Halley (Greenock),
NOES.
Anson, Sir William Reynell Burdett-Coutts, W. Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)
Anstruther-Gray, Major Butcher, Samuel Henry Courthope, G. Loyd
Ashley, W. W. Campbell, Rt. Hon. J. H. M. Craig,Charles Curtis(Antrim,S.
Aubrey-Fletcher.Rt. Hn.Sir H. Carlile, E. Hildred Craig,Captain James(Down, E,
Balcarres, Lord Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H. Craik, Sir Henry
Banbury, Sir Frederick George Castlereagh, Viscount Dalrymple, Viscount
Banner, John S. Harmood- Cavendish, Rt.Hn. Victor C.W. Doughty, Sir George
Barrie, H. T. (Londonderry, N. Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-
Beach,Hn.Michael Hugh Hicks Cecil, Lord John P. Joicey- Faber.Capt. W. V. (Hants, W.
Beckett, Hon. Gervase Cecil,Lord R. (Marylebone, E.) Fell, Arthur
Bowles, G. Stewart Chamberlain, Rt.Hn. J.A.(Wor. Finch, Rt. Hon. George H.
Boyle, Sir Edward Clark,George Smith(Belfast,N.) Forster, Henry William
Bridgeman, W. Clive Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E. Gordon, J.
Haddock, George R. Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)
Hamilton. Marquess of M'Calmont, Colonel James Thomson, W.Mitchell-(Lanark]
Hardy,Laurence(Kent,Ashford Moore, William Thornton, Percy M.
Harrison-Broadley, H. B. Morpeth, Viscount Turnour, Viscount
Hay, Hon. Claude George Pease, Herbert Pike(Darlington Vincent, Col. Sir C. E. Howard
Helmsley, Viscount Rawlinson,John Frederick Peel Walrond, Hon. Lionel
Hervey,F.W.F.(Bury S.Edm's) Salter, Arthur Clavell Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.)
Hunt, Rowland Sandys, Lieut.-Col. Thos. Myles Wilson,A.Stanley (York.E.R.
Kenyon-Slaney.Rt.Hn. Col. W. Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.) Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B.Stuart-
Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm. Sheffield.Sir BerkeleyGeorgeD. Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George
Lee,ArthurH.(Hants.,Fareham Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East Younger, George
Lockwood,Rt.Hn.Lt.-Col. A.R. Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)
Long,Col. CharlesW. (Evesham) Stanley, Hn. Arthur(Ormskirk) TELLERS FOR THE NOES—
Long,Rt.Hon. Walter (Dublin.S Starkey, John R. Sir Alexander Acland-Hood
Lonsdale, John Brownlee Staveley-Hill Henry (Staff'sh. and Viscount Valentia.

Question, "That those words be there added," put, and agreed to.

Ordered, That the Committee stage and Report stage of the Territorial and Reserve Forces Bill, including the financial Resolution relating thereto, shall be proceeded with in the following manner:—(a) That Clauses 1 and 2 and the Committee stage of the financial Resolution be proceeded with and proceedings thereon brought to a conclusion on the first allotted day; (b) That the Report stage of the financial Resolution and Clauses 3 and 4 be proceeded with and the proceedings thereon brought to a conclusion on the second allotted day; (c) That Clauses 5 to 7 be proceeded with and the proceedings thereon brought to a conclusion on the third allotted day; (d) That Clauses 8 to 12 be proceeded with and the proceedings thereon brought to a conclusion on the fourth allotted day; (e) That Clauses 13 to 27 be proceeded with and the proceedings thereon brought to a conclusion on the fifth allotted day; (f) That the remaining clauses of the Bill and the schedules, and any new Government clauses and any new Government schedules, and any other matters necessary to bring the Committee stage to a conclusion, be proceeded with and brought to a conclusion on the sixth allotted day, and that the Chairman report the Bill to the House without Question put; (g) That two allotted days be given to the Report stage of the Bill, and that new clauses and Clauses 1 to 15 of the Bill be proceeded with on the first of those allotted days and the proceedings thereon brought to a conclusion on that day, and that the remaining clauses of the Bill and the schedules, and any other matter necessary to bring the Report stage to a conclusion, be proceeded with on the second of those allotted days and the proceedings thereon brought to a conclusion on that day.

After this Order comes into operation; any day (other than a Friday) shall be considered an allotted day for the purposes of this Order on which the Territorial and Reserve Forces Bill is put down as the first Order of the Day, or on which any stage of the financial Resolution relating thereto is put down as the first Order of the Day, followed by the Bill

At 10.30 p.m. on any allotted day on which proceedings on any business allotted to that day are to be brought to a conclusion, the Chairman or Speaker shall, if those proceedings have not already been brought to a conclusion, put forthwith the Question or Questions on any Amendment or Motion already proposed from the Chair, and shall next proceed successively to put forthwith the Question on any Amendments moved by the Government of which notice has been given, but no other Amendments, and on any Question necessary to dispose of the business to be concluded, and in the case of Government Amendments or of Government new clauses or schedules' he shall put only the Question that the Amendment be made or that the clause or schedule be added to the Bill, as the case may be.

At 11 p.m. on the day on which the Third Reading of the Bill is put down as first Order of the Day, or if that day is a Friday at 5 p.m., the Speaker shall put forthwith any Question necessary to complete the proceedings on that stage of the Bill.

Proceedings to which this Order relates shall not, on any allotted day on which proceedings or any business are to be brought to a conclusion under this Order, be interrupted under the provisions of any Standing Order relating to the Sittings of the House.

After the passing of this Order, on any day on which any proceedings on the Territorial aid Reserve Forces Bill (including the financial Resolution relating thereto) stand as first Order of the Day, no dilatory Motion on the Bill, nor Motion for Adjournment under Standing Order 10, nor Motion to postpone a clause shall be received unless moved by a Minister of the Crown, and the Question on any such Motion shall be put forth-with without debate.

After the passing of this Order on any day on which any proceedings on the Territorial and Reserve Forces Bill, including the financial Resolution relating thereto, stand as first Order of the Day, no opposed Private Business shall be taken.—(Sir H. Campbell-Bannerman.)

Adjourned at twenty - eight minutes after Eleven o'clock.