Commons Sitting of 17 June 1907

Preamble
The House met at a quarter before Three of the Clock.
PRIVATE BILL BUSINESS.

  PRIVATE BILLS [LORDS] (STANDING ORDERS NOT PREVIOUSLY INQUIRED INTO COMPLIED WITH).
  Mr. SPEAKER Mr. SPEAKER laid upon the Table Report from one of the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, that, in the case of the following Bills, originating in the Lords, and referred on the First Reading thereof, the Standing Orders not previously inquired into, and which are applicable thereto, have been complied with, viz—National Trust for Places of Historic Interest or Natural Beauty Bill [Lords]; Glasgow Corporation Bill [Lords]; Birkenhead Corporation Water Bill [Lords]; Sheffield Corporation Bill [Lords]; Oxford and District Tramways Bill [Lords].
  Ordered, That the Bills be read a second time.

  PROVISIONAL ORDER BILLS (NO STANDING ORDERS APPLICABLE).
  MR. SPEAKER MR. SPEAKER laid upon the Table Report from one of the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, That, in the case of the following Bill, referred on the First Reading thereof, no Standing Orders are applicable, viz—Ladybank Sewerage Drainage and Water Provisional Order Bill.
  Ordered, That the Bill be read a second time To-morrow.

  PROVISIONAL ORDER BILLS [LORDS] (STANDING ORDERS APPLICABLE THERETO COMPLIED WITH).
  Mr. SPEAKER Mr. SPEAKER laid upon the Table Report from one of the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, That, in the case of the following Bill, originating in the Lords, and. referred on the First Reading thereof, the Standing Orders which are applicable thereto, have been complied with, viz—Canal Tolls and Charges (New Junction Canal) Order Confirmation Bill [Lords].
  Ordered, That the Bill be read a second time To-morrow.
  Metropolitan Railway (Pension Fund) Bill [Lords]; Simon-Carves Bye-Product Coke Oven Construction and Working Company, Limited, Bill [Lords]. Read the third time, and passed, with Amendments.
  Sunderland Corporation Bill. Read the third time, and passed.
  Renfrewshire Upper District (Eastwood and Mearns) Water Bill [Lords]; Wisbech Water Bill [Lords]. Read a second time, and committed.
  Local Government Provisional Orders (No. 6) Bill. Reported, with Amendments [Provisional Orders confirmed]; Report to lie upon the Table.
  Bill, as amended, to be considered To-morrow.

  PRIVATE BILLS (GROUP G.)
  Sir HENRY KIMBER reported from the Committee on Group G of Private Bills; That, at the meeting of the Committee this day, a telegram was received from Mr. C. J. O'Donnell, one of the Members of the said Committee, stating that he was unable, on account of illness, to attend the Committee this day.
  Report to lie upon the Table.

  PRIVATE BILLS (GROUP G).
  Sir HENRY KIMBER reported from the Committee on Group G of Private Bills; That the parties opposing the Local Government (Ireland) Provisional Orders (No. 3) Bill had stated that the evidence of Mr. P. C. Cowan, Chief Engineering Inspector, Local Government Board, Dublin, was essential to their case;. and,
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  it having been proved that his attendance could not be procured without the intervention of the House, he had been instructed to move that the said Mr. P. C. Cowan do attend the said Committee during the proceedings on the. said Bill.
  Ordered, That Mr. P. C. Cowan do attend the Committee on Group G of Private Bills during the proceedings on the Local Government (Ireland) Provisional Orders (No. 3) Bill.

MESSAGE FROM THE LORDS.
That they have passed a Bill, intituled, "An Act to amend the Factory and Workshop Act, 1901, with respect to laundries, and to extend that Act to certain institutions and to provide for the inspection of certain premises." [Factory and Workshop Bill [Lords].
Also, a Bill, intituled, "An Act to confirm a Provisional Order made by the Board of Trade under the Electric Lighting Acts, 1882 and 1888, relating to the rural district of Cork." [Electric Lighting Provisional Order (No. 2) Bill [Lords].
And, also, a Bill, intituled, "An Act to confirm a Provisional Order made by the Board of Trade under the Electric Lighting Acts, 1882 and 1888, The Electric Lighting (Scotland) Act, 1890, and The Electric Lighting (Scotland) Act, 1902, relating to the burgh of Arbroath." [Electric Lighting Provisional Order (No. 1) Bill [Lords].
Murphy Grimshaw's Divorce (Validation) Bill [Lords]. That they communicate Minutes of Evidence and Proceedings taken upon the Second Reading of Murphy Grimshaw's Divorce (Validation) Bill [Lords], as desired by this House, with a request that the same may be returned.
Electric Lighting Provisional Order (No. 2) Bill [Lords]. Read the first time; Referred to the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, and to be printed. [Bill 242.]
Electric Lighting Provisional Order (No. 4) Bill [Lords]. Read the first

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time;. Referred to the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, and to be printed. [Bill 243.]

PETITIONS.

  MERCHANT SHIPPING (TONNAGE DEDUCTION FOR PROPELLING POWER) BILL.
  Petition from the Newlyn Pier and Harbour Commissioners, against; referred to the Select Committee on the Bill.
  Petitions against, praying to be heard by counsel; From the Red Funnel Line, Limited; and, the Mayor, Aldermen, and Burgesses of the Borough of Bridgwater; referred to the Select Committee on the Bill.

RETURNS, REPORTS, ETC.
  ENGLISH GOVERNMENT DEPARTMENTS (POWERS IN IRELAND).
  Return [presented 10th June] to be printed. [No. 191.]
  INSURANCE UNDER THE WORKMEN'S COMPENSATION ACTS.
  Copy presented, of Report of the Departmental Committee appointed to consider whether the Post Office should provide Facilities for Insurance under the Workmen's Compensation Acts, with Minutes of Evidence and Appendices [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
  JAMAICA.
  Copy presented, of Correspondence relating to the Earthquake at Kingston, Jamaica, on 14th January, 1907 [by Command]; to He upon the Table.
  COLONIAL MERCHANT SHIPPING CONFERENCE, 1907.
  Copy presented, of Report of a Conference between Representatives of the United Kingdom, the Commonwealth of Australia, and New Zealand, on the subject of Merchant Shipping Legislation [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
  UNIVERSITY OF ST. ANDREWS.
  Copy presented, of Annual Statistical Report by the University Court of the University of St. Andrews for 1905–6 [by Act]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 192.]
  UNIVERSITY OF ST. ANDREWS.
  Copy presented, of Report on the State of the Finances of the University for the year 1905–6 [by Act]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 193.]
  PENAL SERVITUDE ACTS (CONDITIONAL LICENCE).
  Copy presented, of Licence granted to Elizabeth Maria Goodall, a convict under detention in Aylesbury Prison, permitting her to be at large on condition that she enter the London Female Preventive and Reformatory Institution, Milton House, Chelsea, S.W. [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.
  TRADE REPORTS (ANNUAL SERIES).
  Copies presented, of Diplomatic and Consular Reports, Annual Series, Nos. 3828 to 3833 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
  COUNTY OFFICERS ANT) COURTS (IRELAND) ACT, 1877.
  Account presented, of the Receipts and Payments under the Act during the year ended 31st March, 1907 [by Act]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No 194.]
  SAVINGS BANKS AND FRIENDLY SOCIETIES.
  Accounts presented, showing the Interest accrued in respect of the Securities standing in the names of the Commissioners for the Reduction of the National Debt to the credit of the Post Office Savings Banks Fund for the year ended 31st December, 1906, and of the Fund for the Banks for Savings and the Fund for Friendly Societies for the year ended 20th November, 1906 [by Act]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 195.]

  PAPER LAID UPON THE TABLE BY THE CLERK OF THE HOUSE.
  Inquiry into Charities (County of Wilts). Further Return relative thereto

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  [ordered 9th August, 1901; Mr. Griffith-Boscawen] to be printed. [No.]196.]

  CORPORAL PUNISHMENT.
  Address for "Return of all sentences of Corporal Punishment inflicted under 26 and 27 Vic., c. 44, upon persons convicted of offences under Section 43 of The Larceny Act, 1861, and Section 21 of The Offences Against the Person Act, 1861, in England and Wales, from the 31st day of December, 1905, to the 31st day of December, 1906 (in continuation of Parliamentary Paper, No. 257, of Session 1906)."—(Mr. Lloyd Morgan.)

  DESTRUCTIVE INSECTS AND PESTS BILL.
  Copy ordered, "of Memorandum explanatory of the Bill."—(Sir Edward Strachey.)
  Copy presented accordingly; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 199.]

QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS CIRCULATED WITH THE VOTES.

  Irish National School Teachers.
  MR. MOONEY: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland if he can state the number of trained teachers that entered the service of the National Board from the 1st April, 1900, till the 31st December of the same year; the number of such teachers at present in charge of schools with an average under sixty that are paid a higher salary than £70 per annum (exclusive of residual capitation and fees for Irish and mathematics); the number of such teachers at present in charge of schools with an average of sixty or over and receiving good reports that are paid the ordinary salary of the National Board; whether the teachers coming under the last head will get the same salary as those coming under the second heading; and, if not, what reasons are assigned by the Commissioners of National Education for this difference of treatment.
  (Answered by Mr. Birrell.) The Commissioners of National Education inform
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  me that the Answer to the first inquiry is 222, to the second twelve, and to the third ten. The Answer to the fourth inquiry is in the negative, and in this connection I beg to refer to my Answer to the hon. Member for South Down on 3rd May.

  Motor Omnibus Traffic.
  MR. LYTTELTON: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether a period of reasonable experiment having now passed he will state what measures have been and are now being taken to diminish the suffering to individuals and the damage to property caused by the noise, dust, and stench of motor omnibuses and other engine-propelled conveyances.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Gladstone.) I am afraid that I cannot add anything to the reply on this subject which I gave to the hon. Member for North Paddington on the 10th instant, which was as follows—The regulations under which motor omnibuses are controlled were considered and approved by a Select Committee of the House of Commons, and are being strictly enforced. Unduly noisy omnibuses arc warned off the streets. Every effort is being made to improve matters, and in the opinion of the Commissioner of Police a marked improvement has been effected. In some places the state of the roadway is responsible for most of the vibration and some of the noise

  Transfer of Huddersfield Male Telegraphists.
  Mr. SHERWELL: To ask the Postmaster-General whether he is aware that competent male telegraphists at Huddersfield of many years service, some of whom hold technical certificates, have been compulsorily transferred to the postal department, owing to alleged decrease of telegraph work; that at the same time the Department is advertising for female telegraphists at Huddersfield; whether he can explain the reason for these actions; and, in view of official statements that no telegraphist is transferred in any office to positions on the postal side without first being offered transfer elsewhere,

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  he will state why this rule has not been complied with.
  (Answered by Mr. Sydney Buxton.) I am making inquiries and will let the hon. Member know the result.

  Supply of Defective Brass Cartridge Cases by Messrs. Kynoch.
  MR. BELLAIRS: To ask the Secretary to the Admiralty the name of the firm referred to in the Auditor-General's report, dated 31st January 1907, page 199, paragraph 25, as supplying considerable quantities of defective brass quick-firing cartridge cases so that they had to be sold as old brass, and guns from various ships had to be returned for repairs in consequence of damage caused by the defective cartridges; whether any action was taken by the Admiralty in respect of this firm; and what reply was made to the Auditor-General as to the value of the cartridges in question.
  (Answered by Mr. Edmund Robertson.) The firm referred to is Messrs. Kynoch, but cartridge cases by other makers have also been withdrawn in some instances. For some years the Admiralty have bought no brass cartridge cases from Messrs. Kynoch, and the damage to guns is not in all instances caused by Messrs. Kynoch's cases. The reply to the Comptroller and Auditor-General is still under consideration.

  Strength of Breech Mechanism of British Service Rifles.
  SIR CHARLES DILKE: To ask the Secretary of State for War whether the investigation into rifle ammunition and high velocities includes the consideration of the strength of breech action; and whether the breech action of our military rifle is weaker than that of its foreign rivals, and our ammunition consequently restricted to a lesser pressure.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Haldane.) The strength of the breech action is taken into consideration in fixing the limits for ballistics of the experimental ammunition. Some foreign rifles no doubt have a stronger breech action than the British, but the strength of the British breech
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  mechanism is in excess of any strain to which it could be exposed under service conditions.

  Handwriting Experts and the Edalji Correspondence.
  MR. HARMOOD-BANNER: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether any other expert, besides Mr. Gurrin, has at any time given an opinion, at the request of the Home Office, upon the authorship of the disputed letters in the Edalji case, or has been consulted as to their authorship; and whether, if not, he will order the same to be submitted to a selected committee of experts for decision.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Gladstone.) The Answer to the first part of the Question is in the affirmative. The second part, therefore, does not arise.

  Naval Distribution.
  MR. NIELD:To ask the Secretary to the Admiralty whether any organisation exists for amalgamating or otherwise uniting the Home and Channel Fleets for joint immediate action upon a sudden emergency; and whether the battleships, cruisers, and torpedo-boat destroyers of the respective Fleets are trained on a similar system.
  (Answered by Mr. Lambert.) The reply to the first part of the Question is in the affirmative and extends to all Fleets. In reply to the second part of the Question, a uniform system of training in all branches obtains in His Majesty's Navy, in accordance with Admiralty orders and regulations.

  Channel Fleet.
  MR. NIELD: To ask the Secretary to the Admiralty whether the nominal strength of the Channel Fleet comprises fourteen battleships; and whether, since its reorganisation in February, it has ever had that number fit for service; and, if not, by how many battleships it has been short.
  (Answered by Mr. Lambert.) Fourteen battleships are attached to the Channel Fleet. As in the case of other Fleets, ships

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  of the Channel Fleet arc periodically sent to the dockyard for refit. As a rule, not more than two battleships at the most are absent, but since February, 1907, three have, on occasion, been absent.

  Torpedo Construction Order.
  MR. BELLAIRS: To ask the Secretary to the Admiralty what was the proportion of orders for torpedoes allotted to Woolwich and Messrs. Whitehead, of Weymouth, respectively, for 1902–3 and 1903–4; and what is the proportion of orders this year.
  (Answered by Mr. Lambert. )In 1902–3 the orders were allotted to Woolwich and Messrs. Whitehead approximately in the proportions of six to five. In the following year the orders were equally divided. In the present year, as has already been stated in reply to a Question on the 16th May, from the hon. Member for South Dorset, roughly three-quarters of the orders will be allotted to Woolwich and a quarter to Messrs. Whitehead.

  Home Fleet.
  SIR BERKELEY SHEFFIELD: To ask the Secretary to the Admiralty how many battleships and cruisers in the Home Fleet are fully manned; and if these ships are allowed the full allowance of ammunition for gun practice.
  (Answered by Mr. Lambert.) In reply to the first part of the Question, six battleships, six armoured cruisers, and five other cruisers attached to the torpedo flotilla are fully manned. The reply to the second part of the Question is in the affirmative.

  Channel Fleet.
  SIR BERKELEY SHEFFIELD: To ask the Secretary to the Admiralty if the Channel Fleet as at present constituted (fourteen battleships and three unarmoured cruisers), less the usual number of ships refitting, is able to meet any foreign fleet in Home waters without reinforcements from other Fleets.
  (Answered by Mr. Lambert.) The Board of Admiralty are satisfied that the battleship strength of the Channel Fleet is greater now than at any previous time,
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  and that with its complementary first-cruiser squadron it is amply sufficient for the duties it is required to undertake.

  Unarmoured Cruisers.
  MR. F. E. SMITH: To ask the Secretary to the Admiralty whether it is the present policy of the Admiralty to cease building unarmoured cruisers of moderate tonnage
  (Answered by Mr. Lambert.) The reply is in the negative.

  Channel Fleet Armoured Cruisers.
  MR. F. E. SMITH: To ask the Secretary to the Admiralty what is the present position of the four armoured cruisers belonging to the Channel Fleet.
  (Answered by Mr. Lambert.) The four armoured cruisers composing the First Cruiser Squadron are at Quebec, and are due at Portsmouth on 2nd July.

  H.M.S. "Wear."
  Mr. F. E. SMITH: To ask the Secretary to the Admiralty when and how the torpedo boat destroyer "Wear" was damaged; how many weeks delay there were before the repairs were made good; and what was the cause of such delay.
  (Answered by Mr. Lambert.) The "Wear" was seriously damaged by collision with the ss. "Etna," on 12th January. Her repairs were completed on 27th May, in nineteen weeks. A delay was experienced in obtaining some special material not then kept in stock.

  Coastguard Committee Report.
  MAJOR SEELY: To ask the Secretary to the Admiralty if he can lay the Report of the Interdepartmental Committee on His Majesty's Coastguard upon the Table of this House.
  (Answered by Mr. Lambert.) This Report is now being considered by the Admiralty.

  House-Letting in Scotland.
  MR. CLELAND: To ask the Secretary for Scotland if he is in a position to state when the Departmental Committee to inquire into the

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  missive system of house-letting in Scotland will present its Report, having regard to the fact that the taking of the evidence was completed several months ago.
  (Answered by Mr. Sinclair.) I can only refer my hon. friend to the reply given to the hon. Member for Camlachie Division on 9th May. †

  Seizure of English Trawler in German Waters.
  MR. WEIR: To ask the Secretary for Scotland, seeing that the English steam trawler "Franconia" was recently seized by a German torpedo boat for illegal trawling in German waters, will he consider the expediency of applying to the Admiralty for similar assistance, especially in view of the fact that the Fishery Board and the Admiralty cruisers at the disposal of the Fishery Board for Scotland cannot adequately cope with the illegal trawling round the coasts of Scotland.
  (Answered by Mr. Sinclair. )No, Sir. There is no intention at present of applying for such assistance.

  Scottish Sporting Estates
  MR;. WEIR: To ask the Secretary for Scotland if he will state whether, under the Small Landholders (Scotland) Bill now before Parliament, lands now used as deer forests or grouse moors will be available for the purposes set forth in the Bill, such as the extension of existing holdings or the creation of new holdings.
  (Answered by Mr. Sinclair.) Such lands are not per se excluded from the operation of the Bill.

  School Hygiene Congress.
  MR. WEIR:To ask the Secretary for Scotland whether the Scottish Education Department will be represented at the International Congress upon School Hygiene which meets in London in August; and will he consider the expediency of arranging for the compulsory teaching of hygiene and temperance in the elementary public schools in Scotland.
  † See (4) Debates, clxxiv., 369
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  Answered by Mr. Sinclair.) The Department proposes to be represented at this Congress. They are not at present prepared to make the teaching of the subjects mentioned compulsory, but will carefully consider the reports of any discussions on the subject at the Congress.

  Dublin Exhibition.
  MR. MOORE: To ask the Vice-President of the Board of Agriculture (Ireland) what amount the Department subscribed or guaranteed, or both, to the Exhibition now being held in Dublin; what part they took, if any, in providing for exhibits; and at how many meetings of the management have the Department been represented since the inauguration of the scheme.
  (Answered by Mr. T. W. Russell.) The Department have not guaranteed any amount to the Irish International Exhibition. With the concurrence of the Agricultural Board a sum of £2,000 was allocated from the Department's funds for the specific purpose of enabling small rural industries, especially those working in connection with the Department, to exhibit their products. The Department was represented on the committee appointed by Her Excellency the Countess of Aberdeen to further the exhibition of these rural industries. The answer to the last part of the Question is that at none of the meetings of the management of the Exhibition have the Department been represented.

  Irish Cattle Industry.
  Mr. MOORE: To ask the Vice-President of the Department of Agriculture (Ireland) what steps the Department will take to prevent the ruin of the Irish cattle industry now being brought about in the South and West of the country.
  (Answered by Mr. T. W. Russell.) The Department are not aware of any ruin impending over the cattle industry in the south and west of Ireland.

  London Railway Fares—Proposed Increase.
  MR. S. COLLINS: To ask the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware of the proposals of the various tube and other

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  railway companies of London to increase the fares on their lines; and, if so, will he use his influence with the said companies to prevent, or in some measure mitigate, this increase.
  (Answered by Mr. Kearley.) The Board of Trade are informed that the District, Metropolitan, and Central London Railway Companies have agreed upon a working arrangement, which will come into operation as soon as details can be settled, and will affect fares between Hammersmith, the West End, and the City. The main features of this arrangement will, I understand, be an increase to 3d. of the fares charged for the longer distances on the Central London Railway, and a revision of those now in force on the Metropolitan and District Lines. The Central London Company state that what they propose is to adhere to a fare of 2d. for all distances not exceeding that between the Bank and the Marble Arch, that is, three and a half miles, and to charge 3d. for all greater distances. No alteration, however, will be made as regards workmen's tickets. Details of the other companies' proposals have not yet been received.

  Crew Engagements at Hull.
  MR. SUMMERBELL: To ask the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware that on 1st June the steamer "Maggie" engaged a crew at the port of Hull; whether he is aware that the deck hands engaged by the master of this vessel were eight in number, and only four were able to prove three years sea service; and whether he can state if the Board of Trade surveyor took any steps to ascertain whether the vessel was manned by a competent crew of seamen.
  MR. CROOKS: To ask the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware that a vessel named the "Ethyl" engaged a crew at the port of Hull on 7th June, and six of the crew were engaged as deck hands, only four out of the six being able to prove that they were qualified A.B.'s; and whether he has had from the Board of Trade surveyor any Report as to whether the ship was seaworthy with the crew that she engaged.
  MR. JENKINS: To ask the President of the Board of Trade, whether he is aware that the steamer ''Imperial Prince" engaged a crew at the port of Hull on 6th June, 1907; whether he is aware that this vessel carried six deck hands and only three of that number were qualified A.B.'s in accordance with Section 58 of the Merchant Shipping Act, 1906, sub-section 2; and whether any Report has been sent to his Department with regard to the under-manning of this vessel.
  MR. O'GRADY: To ask the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware that the steamer "Southella" engaged a crew at the port of Hull on 6th June; whether he can state if this vessel was engaged in the Foreign trade; whether he is aware that the deck hands were four in number, and only two out of the four were qualified A.B.'s; and whether he has had a Report from the surveyor to the Board of Trade as to the manning of this ship.
  MR. KILBRIDE: To ask the President of the Board of Trade, whether he is aware that a steamer named the "Anna Moore" engaged a crew at the port of Hull on 4th June, and out of the five deck hands engaged only two of that number were qualified A.B.'s; and whether he could state if the Board of Trade made any inquiries as to whether the vessel was seaworthy, in accordance with the Merchant Shipping Act.
  MR. KILBRIDE: To ask the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware that the steamer "Otterspool" engaged a crew at the port of Hull on 4th June; whether he is aware that the deck hands numbered five, and only two of this number were qualified A.B.'s; and whether, in consequence, he has had any Report from the Board of Trade surveyor as to the seaworthiness of this vessel.
  (Answered by Mr. Kearley.) I will reply to the six Questions together as they deal with the same subject. Inquiry has been made into each of the cases mentioned in the Questions. The details furnished from the ports do not differ very materially from those stated by

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  hon. Members. The Board of Trade requirements with regard to manning are as follows: "Foreign-going steamships of over 200 feet in length, or not less than 700 tons gross, when proceeding to sea should have, independently of the master and two mates, a sufficient number of deck hands available for division into two watches, so as to provide a minimum effective watch, viz. a competent man at the wheel, a look-out man, and an additional hand on deck available for any purpose." Those requirements were complied with. Had it been otherwise it would have been the duty of the local superintendents before whom the crews were engaged to call in the Board of Trade detaining officers to detain the ship.

  L.B. & SC Railway—Lighting of Trains between Pulborough. and Victoria.
  MR. WEIR: To ask the President of the Board of Trade whether the London, Brighton, and South Coast Railway Company have yet made arrangements for the lighting of the carriages of trains running between Pulborough and Victoria, when passing through tunnels.
  (Answered by Mr. Kearley.) The Board of Trade have been in communication with the railway company in this matter, and are informed that carriages fitted with electric light are kept lighted when passing through tunnels. All new stock is so fitted, and existing stock is being fitted gradually as the carriages can be brought to the works. Whore gas lamps are for the time still in use, the company state that there is a difficulty in finding a means of turning the gas on and off in the course of the journey, and that to keep the gas continually burning would involve an additional expenditure of £8,000 to £10,000 a year. The company add that they are endeavouring to find means of overcoming this difficulty, but have not yet succeeded in doing so.

  Kirkstall Abbey.
  MR. SLOAN: To ask Mr. Attorney-General if he is aware that the Leeds Town Council have granted permission to Roman Catholics to hold a service in Kirkstall Abbey, which is public property held for the use of the notion by the Leeds Town Council;
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  and whether, seeing that it is illegal for any Roman Catholic ecclesiastic or any member of any of the religious orders, communities, or societies of the Church of Rome, bound by monastic or religious vows, to exercise any of the rites or ceremonies of the Roman Catholic religion, or wear the habits of his order, save within the usual places of worship of the Roman Catholic religion or in private houses, and that the Roman Catholic bishop of Leeds has granted an indulgence of fifty days to all who take part in, or are present at, this service, he proposes to take steps to stop this illegal practice.
  (Answered by Sir John Walton. )The property in the ruins of Kirkstall Abbey is vested in the Leeds Corporation. They are a body fully competent to decide for what purposes it should be used. They have also in their service an officer whose duty it is to advise them with reference to the legality of their action. I have no power to stop the proceeding to which the Question refers.

  Cattle Pleuro-Pneumonia Account.
  SIR GEORGE FARDELL: To ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer what has been the total amount contributed by the Administrative County of London to the Cattle Pleuro-pneumonia Account of the Board of Agriculture by way of deduction from London's share of the Local Taxation (England and Wales) Account; and what has been the total expenditure out of the Cattle Pleuro-pneumonia Account in the Administrative County of London during the same period.
  SIR GEORGE FARDELL: To ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he is aware that the cost of administering the Diseases of Animals Acts by the Board of Agriculture in excess of a fixed sum of £140,000 per annum is paid out of the Local Taxation Accounts, and that the result of this system is that local authorities are required, in effect, to pay for the excess cost of services performed by a Government Department over which they have no control; whether he can state the total amount so charged upon the Local Taxation Account and the amount lost by London thereby;

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  whether he is aware that the Royal Commission on Local Taxation, as long ago as 1901, unanimously recommended the abolition of the system; whether already, since that date, £42,240 more has been charged upon the Local Taxation Account, of which £9,275 has, in effect, been paid out of the London county rate; and whether he will make provision in his next Budget for the transfer of this charge from local to Imperial taxation.
  (Answered by Mr. John Burns.) Perhaps I may answer these two Questions together. I am aware of the, facts relating to the matter. The first payment from the Local Taxation Account to the Cattle Pleuro-pneumonia Account was made in 1894. The total amount paid out of the former account to the Board of Agriculture and Fisheries during the period from 1894 to 1906 was £546,480, and it is estimated that during the same period an additional sum of £119,996 would have become payable to London out of the Local Taxation Account if no money had been diverted to the Cattle Pleuro-pneumonia Account. I learn from the Board of Agriculture and Fisheries that the expenditure out of the latter account in the administrative county of London is not shown separately. The facts as to the recommendations of the Local Taxation Commission and the payments made since the date of their Report are substantially as stated by the hon. Member.

  London Indoor Pauper Contribution.
  MR. FLETCHER: To ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he is aware that, under The Local Government Act, 1888, the London County Council are required to pay to the guardians of every Poor Law union in the county an amount equivalent to 4d. a day per head for every indoor pauper maintained in that union according to the average number of indoor paupers during the five years ended 25th March, 1888, and can he state how much this payment amounts to for the year ended March, 1906: whether he is aware that this indoor pauper grant in London was intended to be equivalent to the union officers' grant made to guardians by all other county councils, and that, taking this grant into account, the system of
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  Exchequer contributions involves an absolute annual loss to the London County Council; whether he can state the amount of such loss for the year ended March, 1906; if in any other county in England and Wales an actual loss is incurred by reason of the system of grants prescribed, by the Local Government Act, 1888; and whether he is aware that the actual number of indoor paupers in each London union at the present time differs widely from the prescribed average for the five years ended 25th March, 1888, and that the distribution among the London unions is no longer proportionate to their respective needs.
  (Answered by Mr. John Burns.) I am aware of the provisions of The Local Government Act, 1888, with regard to the several grants referred to in the Question. The payments made by the London County Council for each year in respect of the grant for indoor paupers amount to about £327,000. It is the case that the number of in-door poor in the several London unions differs considerably now from the average number during the five years ended at March, 1888. The matter of "loss" referred to by the hon. Member involves considerations which cannot conveniently be dealt with in reply to a Question.

  Abbeylara Holding Dispute.
  MR. J. P. FARRELL: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether any steps are being taken to provide an alternative holding of land for the family of the late Terence Reilly, of Abbeylara, county Longford; and whether the inspector has called upon Lynn, the present holder of the evicted farm, with a view to securing a surrender in the interest of the Reillys.
  (Answered by Mr. Birrell.) The Estates Commissioners have carefully inquired into the application of Terence Reilly's representatives, and have decided to take no action upon it. The Answer to the latter part of the Question is in the negative.

  Thomastown Petty Sessions Bench.
  MR. MOORE: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland if the attention of the Lord

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  Chancellor has been directed, or will be directed, to the conduct of Mr. Patrick Egan, chairman of the district council, who lives fifteen miles from Thomastown, in attending there as ane ex officio magistrate on the 5th instant and, after certain prisoners had been returned for trial by the bench, addressing them in Court in approval of their action; and will he say how often previously has Mr. Egan attended these petty sessions before this case, and what action will be taken.
  (Answered by Mr. Birrell.) Mr. Egan is chairman of the Bill No. 1 Rural District Council, and, as such, is a magistrate for the Thomastown petty sessions district, which is situate within the rural district in question. The defendants in the case referred to were returned for trial at assizes. It is not intended to take any action in respect of the remarks made by Mr. Egan, in which he stated the grounds of his dissent from the decision of the majority of the Court.

  Roscrea Police Reports on Outrages.
  MR. LONSDALE: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland how many reports of outrages, and meetings held to advocate outrages, were received from the Roscrea police in Tipperary and the Shinrone police in King's County between the 1st January and 1st June this year.
  (Answered by Mr. Birrell.) During the period mentioned there were in Roscrea district two cases of unlawful assembly and one boycotting notice, and there were nine other serious offences of an ordinary character, that is, not connected with agrarian agitation. In the Shinrone district no serious offence was reported. The police authorities are not aware of any meeting at which incitement to outrage took place.

  King's County Grazing Disputes.
  MR. MOORE: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland if he is aware that immediately after the Thomastown petty sessions on 5th June, a crowd of 200 men armed with sticks was addressed by the hon. Member for the Birr Division of King's County, who advised them to clear the cattle off all grazing farms in the district, and in
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  particular off two which he named; and if it is the intention of the Government to make the hon. Member amenable for such incitement.
  (Answered by Mr. Birrell.) The only report of the speech referred to which I have seen is a newspaper report, which is obviously very imperfect. It is not intended to take any action in respect of the speech.

  Education Fines in Ireland.
  MR. BARRIE: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware of the dissatisfaction that exists in Ireland with reference to the recent order re fines inflicted under the Education (Ireland) Act, 1892; and whether he will consider the advisability of withdrawing this order, which is calculated to discourage the excellent work at present being done by school-attendance committees in Ireland.
  (Answered by Mr. Birrell.) The question involved in this matter is one of law, and as doubts have been raised as to the construction of the statutes my right hon. friend the Attorney-General for Ireland is instituting proceedings in the King's Bench Division, with the object of obtaining an authoritative decision.

  Ardfert Untenanted Lands.
  MR. FLAVIN: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether Mr. Lindsay Talbot Crosbie, of Ardfert, has offered about 300 acres of untenanted land to the Estates Commissioners for the enlargement of uneconomic holdings and the giving of allotments of land to the labourers of the Ardfert district; whether the untenanted land has been inspected; what prices has Mr. Crosbie asked for the 300 acres; and what price have the Estates Commissioners offered for the same.
  (Answered by Mr. Birrell.) The owner referred to has offered 320 acres of untenanted land for sale to the Estates Commissioners, who have had the land inspected and made an offer for it. The owner, however, has declined to accept the Commissioners' price. It would be contrary to practice to publish particulars of prices asked or offered in such cases.

  Wandesforde Estate, Castlecomer.
  MR. MEAGHER: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that a number of the tenants of the Wandesforde, Castlecomer, estate, refrained from signing their purchase agreements on the date fixed by the landlord, on account of being afraid of not being able to meet their liabilities to the Government unless the annuities were reduced; whether the Estates Commissioners, on having their attention drawn to the willingness of the tenants to purchase their holdings, subject to inspection by the Estates Commissioners as to the value of the holdings and for adjustment of some points of difference, wrote, saying that as soon as the agreements were signed and lodged application might be made to them for an early inspection; and, as this letter from the Commissioners was taken as indication that the farms of these non signing tenants would be inspected, and as in order to have inspection ensue the agreement forms were signed, whether he will see his way to have the holdings of such tenants inspected irrespective of the zone clause on account of their duress nature.
  (Answered by Mr. Birrell.) The agreements for purchase in the case of this estate were lodged in February last, and the case, therefore, will not reach its turn to be dealt with for a considerable time. The holdings of any tenants on the estate who may not have signed purchase agreements will be inspected before the lands are finally declared to be an estate. As regards the tenants who have signed purchase agreements, the Estates Commissioners will be prepared to consider any applications that the agreements should not be acted on upon the ground that they were entered into under duress, and if it should then appear necessary they will direct a special inspection.

  Irish Police and Cattle Driving Cases.
  MR. MOORE: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland in how many cases since 1st May the police on protection duty have been overpowered by the mob and failed to frustrate their attempts connected with driving off the cattle of obnoxious
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  persons; and if the Government will supplement the civil power by the military in these districts.
  (Answered by Mr. Birrell.) I am informed that in no case of cattle-driving since the date mentioned have the police been overpowered by a mob, but in several cases when the police were present in insufficient force to prevent cattle-driving their action was necessarily confined to warning the offenders and taking their names with a view to prosecution. The Answer to the concluding part of the Question is in the negative.
  MR. MOORE: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland if owners and tenants of grazing lands in Ireland will be permitted to organise and offer armed resistance to lawless mobs endeavouring to drive off their cattle.
  (Answered by Mr. Birrell.) The hon. Gentleman, as one of His Majesty's Counsel, must be at least as learned in the law as I am. He must know that it is not possible to make any general statement as to the amount or nature of the resistance which any person is entitled to use in the defence of his property when he conceives that his rights are being invaded.

  Land-Purchase Annuities.
  MR. MEAGHER: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that no regulations have yet been made under Section 2 of the Purchase of Land (Ireland) Act, 1891, to enable a tenant purchaser to pay one fourth of any instalment of his annuity by the transfer of an equal amount of guaranteed Land Stock through the Post Office to the National Debt Commissioners; whether persons who have recently applied have been unable to get the benefit of the statutory provision; and, if so, will ha say what action he proposes to take.
  *(Answered by Mr. Birrell.) I am aware that regulations under the section quoted have not yet been made. From 1891 till two months ago only one application of the nature referred to was received.

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  Recently some twenty applications have been received. The question of making regulations is at present under the consideration of the Treasury and the Departments concerned.

  Belfast Factory Inspection
  MR. C. DUNCAN: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether, seeing that the medical officer of health for the city of Belfast recently refused to take action in a case of factory inspection, and that a special sanitary inspector was sent to Belfast by the Government, any Report has yet been issued by his Department on this case; and, if not, can any promise be given as to the date of its publication.
  (Answered by Mr. Birrell.) The inspection of factories is a matter which concerns my right hon. friend the Home Secretary, to whom any inquiry on the subject should be addressed. As regards the latter part of the Question, it is assumed that the hon. Member intends to refer to the Commission of Inquiry which is at present investigating the general sanitary administration of Belfast. The Commission have not yet finished taking evidence, and it cannot be said when their Report will be ready.

  Fitzmaurice Estate, Kerry.
  MR. FLAVIN: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he can state if the Fitzmaurice property situate near Duagh, North Kerry, which is in a congested district, has been offered for sale to the Congested Districts Board.
  (Answered by Mr. Birrell.) The reply is in the negative.

  John Murphy's Army Pension.
  MR. J. P. FARRELL: To ask the Secretary of State for War to state the grounds upon which he has refused an increase of pension to John Murphy, No. 2,015, of 1st battalion 14th Foot, who served throughout the entire Crimean War in 1854, was for over twenty-one years in the Army, and was discharged with a pension of only 1s. 1d. per day, although ha had five good conduct badges at the time; and will he recon-
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  sider his decision, seeing that other pensioners of the same period are getting 2s. 6d. per day pension.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Haldane.) The special increases of pensions to men who took part in campaigns before 1867 are only granted if they are in necessitous circumstances, and if they fulfil one of the following conditions—

  (a) Have been wounded; or

  (b) Have been discharged for disability; or

  (c) Are suffering from disability clearly due to their military service.

  The man in question fulfils none of these conditions, and is therefore ineligible for any increase of pension.

  Government Contributions in Lieu of Bates.
  MR. BELLAIRS: To ask the Secretary of State for War whether, in respect of the sum of £17,000 per annum paid under Civil Service Estimates to local authorities in lieu of rates for the Government Ordnance Factories, it is to be understood that no proportionate charges are included in the quoted prices of war material manufactured by the Royal Ordnance Factories, whereas the private firms necessarily have to allow for their payments of the full rates levied by the local authorities.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Haldane.) The contribution to local rates for the Ordnance Factories amounts to £23,000, and these charges are included in the cost of articles manufactured in the factories.

  Uganda Railway.
  MR. HAROLD COX: To ask the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies what is the indebtedness of the Uganda Railway on account of the sums borrowed upon the credit of the United Kingdom; at what rate of interest those borrowings were made, whether any portion of that interest has ever been paid out of the earnings of the railway; if not, what would be the addition to the indebtedness. of the railway up to 31st March, 1907, if compound interest had been charged upon all interest

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  not paid out of the earnings of the railway; what would be the sum due this year from the railway by way of interest upon its total indebtedness; and how much of that sum he hopes to be able to pay to the Chancellor of the Exchequer.
  (Answered by Mr. Churchill.) The total sum borrowed for the construction of the Uganda Railway is £5,502,592, of which £2,466,000 was borrowed at 2??? per cent interest per annum and the balance at 3 per cent. As the hon. Member was informed on the 28th of February, the debt is being repaid by means of annuities of which the last payment will fall due on the 15th of November, 1925, but no portion of the payments of principal and interest in connection with these annuities has been drawn from the railway. If no part of the principal sums had been paid off, and the interest had been allowed to accumulate, the additional debt in respect of arrears of interest would have amounted to about £1,177,000 on the 31st of March, 1907, and the interest due this year on the whole debt would have been £192,683. The revenue of the railway is merged in the general revenue of the Protectorate, and as that revenue requires a considerable grant from the Exchequer in order to balance the expenditure, there is at present no prospect of meeting the charges on the debt out of such revenue.

  British Consul General in Egypt.
  MR. WILLIAM REDMOND: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what is the amount paid to the British Consul General in Egypt for salary and allowances.
  (Answered by Mr. Runciman.) The amount is £6,500 per annum, as stated in the Estimate for Diplomatic Services. There are no additional allowances.

  National Telephone Royalties
  MR. HAROLD COX: To ask the Postmaster-General whether he has noticed that, in the recently issued Return relating to Post Office Telegraphs and Telephones, a considerable part of the revenue attributed to the Post Office telegraph and telephone service is due to royalties paid by the National
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  Telephone Company and other licencees; whether such royalties, being in effect a tax upon private persons, ought rather to be treated as part of the tax revenue of the Exchequer than as part of the earned income of the Post Office; whether he is aware that with this adjustment of accounts the deficiency on the working of the State telegraphs and telephones in 1905–6 amounted to £7580,000; whether he has further noticed that in this figure no allowance is made for interest upon the items of capital expenditure shown in columns 9, 10, and 13, on page 5, or for interest on the annual deficiencies made up of the items shown in the last column on page 6, and of those shown in column 3 on page 4; whether he can state what would be the total deficiency on the year's working in 1905–6 if these items were all taken into account at 3 per cent. compound interest; and what would be the aggregate deficiency up to the end of that year for all the years since the telegraphs were taken over by the State.
  (Answered by Mr. Sydney Buxton.) The amount of royalties is clearly shown in the Return to which the hon. Member refers. They are part of the earnings of licencees on business that is within the Postmaster-General's monopoly, and which he otherwise would be carrying on himself. They are, therefore, properly brought to account as Post Office revenue. I would remind him that the present form of the Return was settled in consultation with him, and that it clearly shows the deficiency in the working of the service in two different forms. I do not see what useful purpose would be served by the further calculations which he suggests.

  London Branch Post Offices.
  MR. BOWERMAN: To ask the Postmaster-General whether he is considering the advisability of extending the number of branch post offices in London; and whether, in that event, he has decided that the increase of staff shall retain the same proportion between the sexes as already exist in the London district offices.
  (Answered by Mr. Sydney Buxton.) The question of the advisability of

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  extending the number of branch post offices in London comes under my notice from time to time as cases arise, but there is no general question under consideration. There is no definite proportion fixed for the employment of female as against male force, and the arrangements must depend largely on the circumstances and requirements of particular offices.

  Central Telegraph Office Duties.
  MR. SEAVERNS: To ask the Postmaster-General whether he has sanctioned a scheme for the devolution of duties in the Central Telegraph Office, by which men arc supervising others in the same class who possess greater service, and are in some instances receiving larger salaries; whether he is aware that, in 1906, the Secretary to the Post Office expressed the opinion that such a system would be difficult and unsatisfactory; and whether, in view of the fact that the question of men of one grade performing the duties of the next class without extra pay is under the consideration of the Select Committee, he will discontinue the scheme pending the issue of its report.
  (Answered by Mr. Sydney Burton.) Devolution of duties is a means adopted for filling the places of those absent on leave or otherwise and at the same time testing fitness for promotion. It is desirable to apply this test not only to those who are at the very top of the next class, but to others also who are near the top of the class, and the result is that in some cases men supervise others who have longer service. I see no reason for making a change, pending the Report of the Select Committee. I do not know to what statement of the Secretary to the Post Office the hon. Member refers.

  Belfast Postmen.
  MR. J. DEVLIN: To ask the Postmaster-General whether he will state the number of ex-Army and ex-Navy men at present engaged as postmen at the Belfast post office; whether some time ago an arrangement was made that assistant postmen who had risen from the rank of telegraph messengers should
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  receive appointments in equal ratio to-these ex-Army and ex-Navy men; whether the proportion of the latter is now considerably in excess of the former, and whether he will take steps to secure that the original arrangement is adhered to, and that both classes should be equally represented in the Belfast postal service.
  (Answered by Mr. Sydney Billion.) At present fifty-one ex-Army and ex-Navy men are employed as established postmen at Belfast. The arrangement, one of many years standing, under which vacancies for postmen fall alternately to ex-telegraph messengers and to ex-soldiers or ex-sailors, has been and is being adhered to; and half the vacancies at Belfast have been assigned to ex-telegraph messengers.

  Austrian Immigrants.
  MR. LEVERTON HARRIS: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether, in view of the statement made before the Alien Immigration Board, on 10th June, that an agent in Austria is booking immigrants to England, and, in order to prevent their rejection, is providing them with American passports, and that these immigrants have no intention of proceeding beyond this country, it is proposed to take any steps to compel immigrants arriving in the United Kingdom to show a passport and to proceed to the destination indicated thereon.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Gladstone.) The case referred to was an attempt to pass into the United Kingdom, under pretence that they were going to America, two aliens who had no intention of going: there, and no means or prospects of maintaining themselves here. Any suggestion as to passports would seem to be due to misunderstanding. The Aliens Act affords a means of dealing with such a case, and in this instance the attempted evasion was detected and the two aliens were refused leave to land. I have under consideration the question of taking further steps in regard to the persons concerned in the case.

  Irish Land Stock.
  MR. J. P. FARRELL: To ask the Secretary to the Treasury if he will state

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  when it is proposed to calculate the losses likely to fall on local authorities next year in respect of the fall in Irish Land Stock; and will he take any steps to give notice to those authorities of the amounts proposed to be so deducted, so that they can verify the accuracy of these Treasury calculations.
  (Answered by Mr. Runciman.) I can make no statement as to the future, but the subject is receiving careful consideration.

  Longford Magistracy.
  MR. J P. FARRELL: To ask Mr. Attorney-General for Ireland whether he is aware that a feeling exists in favour of the appointment of Mr. James O'Neill, Chairman of the Longford Board of Guardians, to the commission of the peace for the county of Longford; and will he undertake to bring this case to the notice of the Lord Chancellor, with a view to Mr. O'Neill's appointment.
  (Answered by Mr. Cherry.) I am informed by the Lord Chancellor's secretary that no application for the appointment of Mr. O'Neill to the commission of the peace has been received by the Lord Chancellor. I f such an application should be made it would doubtless receive due consideration. It would not be usual for the Law Officers of the Crown to make representations to the Lord Chancellor in such matters.

  Mineral Water Frauds.
  MR. J. DEVLIN: To ask the President of the Board of Trade whether his attention has been called to the fraudulent use of the word Belfast in connection with mineral waters manufactured in Canada and Cape Colony; and whether, seeing that the practice is calculated to inflict injury on the mineral water manufacturers of Belfast, he will say what action he proposes to take in the matter.
  (Answered by Mr. Kearley.) This matter has not hitherto been brought to the notice of the Board of Trade, but, if the hon. Member will furnish them with details, my right hon. friend will consider whether the case is one in which action can properly be taken by the Board of Trade.

  Licence Duties.
  SIR WILLIAM BULL: To ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer whether, seeing that the present scale of duty charged in respect of premises licensed for the sale of intoxicating drinks is higher in proportion to annual value in the case of promises under £100 rental than in the case of premises above that rental, that the charge diminishes in percentage up to the rental of £700, and that the scale is not graduated beyond £700, with the result that premises of an annual value of £2,500 pay no larger duty than premises of £700 rental, he will state what proportions of such premises, both above and below £100 rental, are situated in London and the provinces respectively, and the extent to which London's share of the licence duties has been reduced in consequence of the operation of this scale of duties.
  (Answered by Mr. Asquith.) The number of licensed premises (publicans') (exclusive of beer houses, which are not rated for licence duty purposes on a valuation) in the county of London and provinces, respectively, are: — Rental not exceeding £100: London, 344; provinces, 45,693. Rental £100 and upwards: London, 4,974; provinces 14,626. A higher scale of duties upon the higher value premises would, of course, have increased the total yield of the duties in London to a greater extent than in the provinces. The amount of such increase would necessarily depend, in both cases, upon the precise scale adopted as an alternative.

  Mymensingh Riots.
  MR. REES: To ask the Secretary of State for India what has been the result of the prosecution of some 200 Mahomedans for rioting at Mymensingh.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Morley.) I have ascertained that in the Mymensingh rioting cases, 168 persons have been convicted, 126 acquitted or discharged, and thirteen committed for trial at sessions, while the cases of seventy persons are pending. Of the persons convicted, five have been sentenced to four years imprisonment, four to three years, seventeen to two years, two to twenty-one

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  months, thirty-three to eighteen months, forty to one year, six to nine months, and three to eight months' imprisonment.

  Madras Hereditary Inam Lands.
  Mr. REES: To ask the Secretary of State for India whether he has had under his notice the terms upon which the Madras Government is enfranchising the hereditary inam lands of the village officers in zemindari villages; whether he is aware that such terms are onerous compared with those upon which the inam lands in Government villages were enfranchised; and whether, in view of the immemorial service of the owners and their ancestors in respect of the former lands, he will inquire into the matter and take such action as may appear to him to be just and proper in the circumstances.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Morley.) I have seen correspondence on the subject between the Government of Madras and the Board of Revenue. The Government of Madras and the Board came to the conclusion that there was nothing harsh or inequitable in fixing the quit-rents of enfranchised village service inams in zemindari villages at full assessment rates, and that the rule limiting the quit-rent to five-eighths of the full assessment in ryotwari tracts was not applicable to zemindari tracts, and would, if extended to them, occasion a loss of revenue to the village service fund of the district, which it could not well afford. Madras Act II. of 1894 gives the Local Government full authority to make rules for the fixation of these quit-rents. As at present advised, I see no reason for interfering with the discretion of the Government of Madras in the matter.

  Sir J. Bampfylde Fuller's Pension.
  MR. REES: To ask the Secretary of State for India whether Sir J. Bampfylde Fuller received as pension debitable to Indian revenues any sum in excess of £500 per annum; and whether any pension received by him above that amount is paid from the Indian Civil Service Pension Fund out of moneys furnished by the subscriptions of members.
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  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Morley.)The whole of Sir J. Bampfylde Fuller's pension is debitable to Indian revenues. A portion of it was provided by the contributions which he paid while in the service, but it would not be possible without an elaborate actuarial calculation to ascertain the amount of this portion.

  Irish Southern Catholics and Presbyterians.
  MR. J. DEVLIN: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether his attention has been called to a speech made by the Rev. Dr. McKeon, ex-moderator of the General Assembly of the Presbyterian Church in Ireland, at a meeting of that body held on the 7th June, when, dealing with the attitude of the Southern Catholics towards Presbyterians, he stated that, with one or two exceptions, ministers in the South were unanimous in speaking highly of the tolerance and goodwill shown to them by those who differed from them in faith; that the disturbance which had occurred in Athenry and the surrounding district was all in connection with the agitation against the grazing system; that, in dealing with the landlords, the people made no distinction of creed, and instanced a case where a Catholic landlord had to go on a public platform and was compelled to give up a farm; and whether in view of the attempts made in some quarters to represent the majority of the Irish people as bigoted and intolerant towards their Protestant countrymen, he will state if Dr. McKeon's views were in agreement with the official information available on this matter.
  MR. J. DEVLIN: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether his attention has been called to a speech of the Rev. Dr. McKeon, ex-moderator of the General Assembly of the Presbyterian Church in Ireland, at a meeting of that body held in Belfast on 7th June, in which he stated that in Central Ireland from 1,000 to 1,500 acres of land were in such bad condition during wet weather that a cow could not walk on them, and that he thought it a strange thing that a Government which was ready to invest money in Ireland would not invest it in draining the land; and

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  whether, in view of the fact that Dr. McKeon voiced in this matter the practically unanimous opinion of Irishmen of all creeds and sections, the Government will consider the advisability of dealing with this question without delay.
  MR. J. DEVLIN: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether his attention has been called to a statement made by the Rev. Dr. McKeon, ex-moderator of the General Assembly of the Presbyterian Church in Ireland, at a meeting of that body held on 7th June, in which he stated that the grazing system was doing more injury, not only to the Presbyterian Church but to the whole Irish people, than any other condition of things that he had seen, and that what the Presbyterians had to do was to keep the manhood of the country in Ireland; and whether, in view of the unanimity of all sections of Irishmen in favour of the abolition of the grazing system, the Government will use its influence towards that end.
  (Answered by Mr. Birrell.) My attention has been called to the Rev. Dr. McKeon's speech. I am glad to hear of his testimony to the spirit of toleration which prevails in the South of Ireland. As regards the question of arterial drainage I would refer to my Answer to the hon. Member for North Kilkenny on 12th instant.† The question is a large one, and it will be necessary to consider the recent Report of the Arterial Drainage Commission in all its bearings before undertaking legislation in the matter. As regards the grazing system, I would remind the hon. Member that the question forms part of the problem at present under the consideration of the Royal Commission on Congestion in Ireland. I have already indicated that it is the intention of the Government to introduce a Bill to amend the existing laws, after they have had the advantage of studying the Report of that Commission.

  Belfast Corporation Appointment.
  MR. J. DEVLIN: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he can state the circumstances
  † See (4) Debates, clxxiv., 1417–20
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  under which the appointment of Thomas Johnston, permit clerk, was recently made by the Works Committee of the Belfast Corporation; whether a young man named M'Ardle had been appointed to the position by the superintendent, and his appointment was cancelled because of his being a Catholic; whether he is aware that a member of the Works Committee stated at a meeting of the corporation that he had been canvassed to vote against any Papist getting the position; and whether the Local Government Board propose to interfere in the matter.
  (Answered by Mr. Birrell.) The Local Government Board have no information on this subject beyond that derived from newspaper reports. The appointment in question is not subject to the control of the Board.

  Maconchy Estate, Bogs Trustee.
  MR. J. P. FARRELL: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that the Estates Commissioners having removed Mr. Michael Kirnan to Lettergonnell, Ballinamuck, from the position of a trustee of the bogs on the Maconchy estate, have taken no steps to appoint a successor who would represent the interests of the tenants on that end of the property; and will he direct that this omission be rectified by the appointment of Mr. Francis Farrell, of Aghadewry, Ballinamuck.
  (Answered by Mr. Birrell.) The Estates Commissioners have received no application that the present number of trustees should be increased, but they are prepared to consider any representations which may be made to them in the matter.

  O'Grady Estate, Edgeworthstown.
  MR. J. P. FARRELL: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether any inspection of the O'Grady estate at Cam, Edgeworthstown, has yet taken place; whether he is aware that, in consequence of turbary disputes and the high price paid for the land, the tenants are now anxious for an inspection of the whole property;

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  and will he, in the interests of the taxpayers, direct that such inspection will take place with a view to preventing a possible loss in the future on this transaction.
  (Answered by Mr. Birrell.) No proceedings for the sale of this estate have been instituted before the Estates Commissioners, and therefore no occasion for making an inspection has arisen.

  Morley's Bridge Evicted Tenant.
  MR. MURPHY: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland if they have considered the application of Mr. Daniel Hegarty, Morley's Bridge, county Kerry, as an evicted tenant; and what they propose to do in connection therewith.
  (Answered by Mr. Birrell.) The Estates Commissioners have considered Mr. Hegarty's application, and have decided that it is not practicable to reinstate him in his former holding, which is being sold to his nephew, the present tenant. The Commissioners have placed Mr. Hegarty's name on the list of persons suitable to receive allotments of land.

  Cork Ratepayers and the Irish Land Stock.
  MR. A. ROCHE: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether a proportion of the loss to the Exchequer on the flotation of Irish Land Stock is chargeable against ratepayers of Cork city and other Irish cities; and, if so, what is the amount chargeable to each.
  (Answered by Mr. Birrell.) The Answer is in the negative. The Land Purchase Acts do not apply to Cork and other municipal boroughs.

  Ballyhaise Evicted Tenant.
  MR. VINCENT KENNEDY: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland if the Estates Commissioners have received an application for reinstatement from a Mrs. Anne Connaty, sister of Thomas M'Kiernan, who died in America in 1892, and who was evicted from his farm about the year 1885 on the Newburgh estate, near Ballyhaise, county Cavan; and will this evicted tenant's case have attention.
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  (Answered by Mr. Birrell.) The Estates Commissioners cannot trace the receipt of the application referred to.

  Sale of Bad Farm Seeds in Ireland.
  MR. JAMES O'CONNOR: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that the Wicklow County Council have submitted to the Board of Agriculture in Ireland several samples of seeds sold to farmers in Wicklow; whether, when tested by the Department of Agriculture, the samples were found to be of slow or defective germinating power, and in some cases the seeds were proved to contain impurities; and whether he will advise the Board of Agriculture in Ireland to take steps, by legislation, if necessary, to put a stop to the sale of farm seeds of bad quality.
  (Answered by Mr. T. W. Russell) No samples of seeds have been sent to the Department's seed-testing station by the Wicklow County Council. Twenty-nine samples have, however, been received this season direct from farmers in that county, and the instructor in agriculture for the district, acting under the directions of the Department, has submitted eighteen samples. The samples received from farmers have all been tested, and the results forwarded to the senders. Those submitted by the agricultural instructor have not yet been tested. Of the farmers' samples a large number, while of fair average purity, are distinctly defective in germinating quality. The Department will consider whether steps could be taken by legislation to guard against the sale in Ireland of farm seeds of bad quality.

QUESTIONS IN THE HOUSE.

  H.M.S. "Brilliant."
  MR. MITCHELL-THOMSON: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Admiralty whether H.M.S. "Brilliant" is to return home, and what ship replaces her.
  THE CIVIL LORD OF THE ADMIRALTY (MR. LAMBERT, Devonshire, South Molton): The "Brilliant" has been in commission only a little over a year, and

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  so the question of her relief does not arise.

  Naval Manœuvres.
  MR. LONSDALE: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Admiralty whether the Board of Admiralty have decided to reverse the decision previously arrived at that no naval manœuvres shall be held this year.
  MR. LAMBERT: I have nothing to add to the previous Answers of my right hon. friend the Secretary to the Admiralty on the same subject, on 13th and 30th May. †

  Dover Harbour.
  MR. FELL: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Admiralty if, owing to the currents in the new Dover Harbour, it has been found impossible to moor the men-of-war there by the bow and stern as proposed, and that new moorings are to be laid to enable them to swing; and whether, in consequence, the harbour, which was constructed to shelter the Channel Fleet, will not now be able to contain more than half that Fleet at a time.
  MR. LAMBERT: The Answer to both Questions is in the negative. The moorings at Dover are being re-arranged to meet the increased length of vessels built since the original scheme was settled.
  MR. FELL: When the moorings have been re-arranged will there be sufficient moorings for the Channel Fleet?
  MR. LAMBERTasked for notice of the Question.
  MR. FELL: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Admiralty if destroyers and torpedo boats frequently roll up to 15 degrees when at anchor in the new Dover harbour; and, if so, whether any extensions or alterations are proposed to make it a more secure anchorage for those vessels.
  MR. LAMBERT: The harbour works at Dover are not yet completed, and
  † See (4) Debates, clxxiv., 575 clxxiv., 61.
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  when they are the anchorage will be secure.

  Hat Ribbons for Sailors.
  MR. BOWLES: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Admiralty whether any delay has occurred in currying out the arrangement described in Paragraph 22 of the instructions as to uniform, enclosed in the Admiralty Circular Letter, No. 23, of the 1st February, 1907, with reference to the free issue of hat ribbons to men joining a new ship; and, if so, what is the cause of this delay.
  MR. LAMBERT: I am informed that no complaint has been received at the Admiralty of any delay having occurred. If the hon. and gallant Member will give me particulars of any case in which he knows of such delay, I will have immediate inquiry made.

  The Home Fleet.
  MR. NIELD: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Admiralty whether the Home Fleet is officially regarded as a reserve fleet or as a fleet ready for immediate action.
  SIR BERKELEY SHEFFIELD: I beg also to ask the Secretary to the Admiralty how many battleships and cruisers in the Home Fleet are fully manned; and if these ships are granted the full allowance of ammunition for gun practice.
  MR. LAMBERT: In the Home Fleet six first-class battleships, six armoured cruisers, five other cruisers, forty-eight destroyers, and four first-class torpedo boats, new type, are fully manned and ready for immediate service. The remainder of the Home Fleet can be, and has been, made ready for service within a few hours, except the special-service vessels shown at Page 270 of the Navy List. The Answer to the last part of the Question of the hon. Member for Brigg is in the affirmative.
  MR. GEORGE FABER: May I ask whether the "Dreadnought" is one of the battleships alluded to?
  MR. LAMBERT: Yes, Sir.
  MR. ARTHUR LEE: Can the hon. Gentleman say whether these six battleships have a portion of their complement made up of untrained boys?
  MR. BELLAIRS: Is it not the fact that one-fifth of the complements of these ships is made up of boys who are sent on board for training purposes?
  MR. LAMBERT: I must have notice of that Question; but I am informed that they are ready for immediate action.

  Salisbury Plain—Government Tenants.
  MR. WALTER LONG: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether the tenants on the Government property on Salisbury Plain will be allowed to deduct from their rents the additional amount of rates which, under the recent notice, they are called upon to pay.
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WAR (MR. HALDANE, Haddington): I regret that I am not yet in a position to give a decision on this matter; I hope to be able to do so very shortly.

  Natal and the South African Garrison.
  MR. HAROLD COX: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether his attention has been called to the statement made by Mr. Moor, Premier of Natal, to the effect that the promise of the Imperial Government had been obtained that Natal should always possess a portion of the regular South African garrison; whether such a promise was given; and, if so, whether any stipulation was made that the full cost of the Imperial troops stationed in Natal should be borne by the revenues of the Colony in the same way, and to the same extent, that the cost of troops stationed in India is borne by the revenues of India.
  MR. HALDANE: I have seen the Press telegram to which the hon. Member refers. It is, however, plainly an inaccurate report of Mr. Moor's speech. It is obvious that the considerations which determine the size and distribution of the South African garrison would not permit of a pledge of this kind being given. The
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  troops are stationed where they are required to give effect to a general scheme of defence, and the Government must keep its hands free to move them to meet emergencies or changes in the strategical situation. While this remains so, the case of India affords no parallel for demanding that Natal shall bear the whole cost of the troops stationed within its borders. I therefore told Mr. Moor that while there was no intention at this moment of moving the Imperial troops from Natal the War Office would give no pledge that the troops should remain there.
  MR. HAROLD COXasked whether the Colony of Natal undertook to pay any portion of the cost.
  MR. HALDANE: I do not think it would be expedient to enter into a bargain with the Colony of Natal to tie troops to a particular spot.

  Engineering Branch—Assistant Surveyors.
  MR. RIDSDALE: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether, having regard to his Answer of the 19th December, 1906, he is yet in a position to state what stops have been taken to alleviate the alleged grievances of the assistant surveyors of the civil staff for engineer services.
  MR. HALDANE: I am not yet in a position to announce a decision on this subject.

  Irish Militia and Yeomanry.
  CAPTAIN CRAIG: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether he can now give detailed information as to the intentions of the Government respecting the amalgamation or disbandment of certain Irish Militia battalions of Infantry, the future of their men and officers, the disposal of Irish Militia battalions of Artillery, the status of the North of Ireland and South of Ireland Imperial Yeomanry and the payment of the men and officers; and whether county associations are to be formed in Ireland as is proposed for England and Scotland; and, if so, can he outline their functions.
  MR. HALDANE: The Irish Militia and Yeomanry will come under Part III.

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  of the Territorial and Reserve Forces Bill; the officers will pass into the reserve of officers while the men will form part of the special reserve. County associations will not, for the present, be formed in Ireland. With regard to the detailed information asked for by the hon. and gallant Member regarding the future military organisation in Ireland, it is not practicable to deal with it adequately within the limits of an Answer to a Question.
  CAPTAIN CRAIG: Cannot the right hon. Gentleman give any details as to the Irish battalions to be done away with and those to be retained? Is he aware that Commanding Officers of Militia battalions in Ireland at present find it exceedingly difficult to recruit young subalterns owing to the uncertainty of the future of the force?
  MR. HALDANEsaid an opportunity would probably occur that evening to give the House the information.
  MR. FLAVIN: Where are the South of Ireland Imperial Yeomanry? As a Southern man I never saw any.
  [No Answer was returned.]

  Soldiers and Crime.
  MR. SWIFT MACNEILL: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether his attention has been directed to the fact that the chairman, in charging the grand jury at Surrey Quarter Sessions, referred to no fewer than five charges of burglary committed by soldiers with the object of getting discharged from the Army, and said that it showed a serious state of things which ought to be ended; whether he has any explanation to offer of this incident; what means, if any, does he propose to take for the abolition of the state of things which produced it; and whether he can explain the contrast between the descriptions of the advantages of a soldier's career set forth in recruiting advertisements with the desire to be discharged from the Army under any circumstances, however ignominious.
  MR. HALDANE: It is not understood on what grounds the chairman mentioned based his assertion that these
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  soldiers committed burglary with a view to being discharged, for, in pleading guilty to the charge, they made no remarks whatever as to their object in committing the offence. Although the utmost care is taken to prevent men of bad character enlisting, and personal references or written characters are required from all applicants, still the military authorities are, like ordinary employers of labour, liable to be misled by false information. Men of bad character when they find discipline irksome do sometimes commit themselves with a view to discharge. The recruiting advertisements are in no way misleading and fairly represent the advantages of the service to well-conducted men.

  Yeomanry Squadron Leaders.
  SIR SAMUEL SCOTT: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War how he proposes to provide squadron leaders for the fourteen Yeomanry squadrons forming the divisional cavalry of the Regular Army.
  MR. HALDANE: The whole question of the provision of officers on mobilisation, including the Question put to me, is now being considered by a Committee, and I hope before very long to be in a position to make a statement.
  SIR SAMUEL SCOTT: When is the right hon. Gentleman likely to be in a position to make a statement?
  MR. HALDANE: The questions before the Committee are of enormous detail, and it would be unwise to attempt to make a premature statement.

  Cost of Defending Naval Arsenals and Coaling Stations Abroad.
  SIR SAMUEL SCOTT: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether he can give an approximate figure of the amount borne annually on Army Estimates attributable to the necessity for garrisoning and defending naval arsenals, bases, and coaling stations, at home and abroad, or for other naval purposes.
  MR. HALDANE: The information required will be contained in a Return moved for by my hon. friend the Member for King's Lynn, which is in course of preparation.

  Yeomanry Establishment.
  VISCOUNT VALENTIA: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether he proposes, under the Territorial Army scheme, to increase the establishment of Yeomanry regiments by twenty, or by what number of men, with corresponding officers, to provide the divisional cavalry of the Regular Army.
  MR. HALDANE: It is proposed to obtain the divisional cavalry for the Regular Army by inviting Imperial Yeomanry regiments to provide troops for service in the special contingent. These would be additional to the peace establishment, but would be affiliated to the Yeomanry regiment furnishing them.
  MR. COCHRANE: Where will you got the officers for this divisional cavalry?
  MR. HALDANE: Officers will be invited to go into the Reserve for the purpose.

  The Territorial Forces Bill.
  SIR HOWARD VINCENT: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War if it has been decided to drop the portion of the Territorial and Reserve Forces Bill referring to the Militia; and if, seeing that the Yeomanry is also to be left as at present, he will consider the advisability of abandoning the Bill altogether, and proceed, without further waste of time, to the formation of divisions and brigades in the Volunteer Force, under commanders who, in London as in the provinces, will lead them on mobilisation, in accordance with the recommendations of the Duke of Norfolk's Commission of some years back.
  MR. MYER: Will the right hon. Gentleman consider the desirability of discharging inefficient lieut.-colonels and appointing regular officers in their stead?
  MR. HALDANE: The hon. and gallant Member can hardly regard this as a serious Question. If he does he cannot have paid attention to the words of the Leader of the Opposition at the close of the debate on Monday last, and to my reply.†
  † See (4) Debates, clxxv., 1176–80.
  SIR HOWARD VINCENT: May I ask the right hon. Gentleman, is there anything in the published statement that the Militia portion of the scheme is to be withdrawn?
  MR. HALDANE: I have not seen the published statement, but if it purports to be what the hon. and gallant Gentleman says, there is not a word of truth in it.

  Imperial Troops and the Rand Strike.
  MR. MACKARNESS:I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War what is the total number of Imperial troops which have been brought to the Rand district of the Transvaal in connection with the recent strike of white miners; how long it is proposed to keep the troops there; and upon whom the expense of their removal and maintenance there will fall.
  MR. HALDANE: Troops to the number of 1,400 in all have been sent to the Rand district. I have no knowledge as to the length of time it will be necessary to keep them there. A claim for the extra cost, if any, involved in their despatch from their stations will be made upon the Colonial Government.
  MR. SWIFT MACNEILLasked whether the troops were sent at the request of the Executive Government or at the behest of Lord Selborne, acting merely as an Imperial officer.
  MR. HALDANE: They were sent, under the control of the general officer, at the request of the Colonial Government.
  MR. LEA: Will the right hon. Gentleman consider the advisability of debiting the cost of these troops, not to the Colonial Government, but to the Rand Chamber of Mines?
  [No Answer was returned.]
  MR. HAROLD COX: Will the right hon. Gentleman explain what he means by extra cost? Does he mean extra cost over and above keeping them in this country, or extra cost over and above keeping them in Pretoria?
  MR. HALDANE: No. The troops are there, and they cost a certain amount there; and if they are called upon to

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  discharge civilian duties in aid of the civilian power that is a matter for the civilian authorities.

  British Troops in the West Indies.
  MAJOR ANSTRUTHER-GRAY (St. Andrew's Burghs): I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether, in view of recent events, he will consider the advisability of stationing a British infantry regiment in the West Indies.
  MR. HALDANE: I am not aware of any recent events that would justify the re-transfer of a British infantry regiment to the West Indies.
  MAJOR ANSTRUTHER-GRAY: Has the right hon. Gentleman's attention been called to the complaint from the West India Committee of the neglect from which they are suffering?
  MR. HALDANE: The whole matter was considered before any decision was come to.

  Cavalry Regiments in Scotland.
  MAJOR ANSTRUTHER-GRAY: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War when he will announce his decision as to quartering two cavalry regiments in Scotland.
  MR. HALDANE: The allocation of cavalry to the Scottish command has not yet been decided. I cannot say when a decision is likely to be reached.

  Colonial Defence.
  MR. PIKE PEASE: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether he can now state the names of the Colonial stations upon which £10,000 is to be spent during 1907–8 for adapting the defences to modern requirements; what is the estimated outlay upon each of such stations; and what further expenditure will probably be required to complete the work.
  I beg also to ask the Secretary of State for War what are the items composing the sum of £50,000 to be expended during the present financial year on adapting the defences of various home stations to modern requirements; and what are the particular stations involved.
  MR. HALDANE: It would not be expedient or in the interests of imperial defence to make public the information which the hon. Member requires.
  LORD BALCARRESasked if there was anything confidential in the amount of money spent, seeing that it was ascertainable from the Votes.
  MR. HALDANE: It is not a question of amount, but rather one of distribution and policy with regard to which the inexpediency comes in.
  LORD BALCARRES: Are we not to be allowed to know the amount of money spent at Malta and Gibraltar?
  MR. HALDANE: I am rather surprised the noble Lord should press me after what I have said.

  Woolwich Discharges.
  SIR J. RANDLES: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War if he will circulate with the Votes his statement showing the number of Woolwich men discharged on reduction from 1st June, 1906, to 1st June, 1907, specifying how many men have been discharged after ten years' service and the number of years served by the remainder.
  MR. HALDANE: The reply is in the affirmative.
  SIR J. RANDLES: Can the right hon. Gentleman say if the men with long service were skilled or unskilled?
  MR. HALDANE: Some were skilled and some not.

  Natal White Population.
  MR. HAROLD COX: I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies what was the white population of Natal at the time when British Indians were first introduced into that Colony; and what is now the white population of the Colony according to the latest information.
  THE UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE COLONIES, (Mr. CHURCHILL, Manchester, N.W.): In 1860 when Indian immigration began

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  the white population was 11,950. In 1905 it was 94,731.

  Imperial Conference—The Newfoundland Fishery Question.
  MR. LYTTELTON (St. George's, Hanover Square),: I beg to ask the Undersecretary of State for the Colonies, with respect to a statement recently made in public by the Prime Minister of Newfoundland to the effect that all his remarks at the Conference on the Newfoundland fishery question were in support of a resolution concurred in by his colleagues the Colonial Prime Ministers before it was brought forward, whether he will state the terms of such resolution, and explain why it was not recorded in the minutes of the proceedings.
  MR. CHURCHILL: The resolution was not recorded in the published proceedings because it was agreed before the discussion opened that the Conference should sit in private. Subsequently, out of consideration to Sir R. Bond, it was agreed that his statement should be published, the rest of the proceedings remaining confidential.

  Royal Mint for South Africa
  MR. LONSDALE: I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether any conclusion has yet been arrived at with regard to the establishment of a branch of the Royal Mint in South Africa.
  MR. CHURCHILL: No, Sir.

  Railway Construction in Canada—Recruitment of British Labour.
  MR. CLELAND: I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether his attention has been directed to the derelict condition in which 250 Scottish artisans are placed who arrived at Portage La Prairie on 20th May, having signed an undertaking for construction work on the Grand Trunk Pacific Railway in Canada on the distinct and specific pledge that immediate employment would be provided on arrival at the railway camp; whether he proposes to make representations to the proper authorities to enforce fulfilment of this contract on the part of the railway company, and to take steps to prevent British workmen from being
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  recruited under false pretences for labour in any part of the British Dominions; and whether he will consider the propriety of making representations to the Dominion Government to secure some compensation to these men either from the Government or the railway company.
  MR. CHUCRHILL: I am informed that when the workmen in question arrived at Portage La Prairie the local contractor had no work ready for them at the moment. They immediately complained to the Canadian authorities, who communicated with the railway company, by whom instructions were telegraphed to the local contractor to supply the men with work even if they were not needed. The men were thereupon put to work at once. The men, I am informed, had been on arrival taken into the railway camps, provided with beds and given food. In the circumstances the Secretary of State sees no necessity for any action on the part of His Majesty's Government.

  Orange Free State—Upper Chamber.
  MR. ALDEN: I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether any instructions have been issued to the Governor of the Orange Free State relative to the nomination of the members of the Upper House under the new constitution, in view of the fact that this Chamber, being appointed for four years, should be representative of all shades of political opinion in the State.
  MR. CHURCHILL: In accordance with the precedent of the Transvaal, the Governor will be instructed to consult the Secretary of State before making any appointment, and the Secretary of State is confident that the Governor will exercise the greatest care in submitting his recommendations.
  MR. MACKARNESSasked whether it was intended to appoint a Second Chamber of the same political complexion as the majority in the Lower House, or the reverse.
  MR. CHURCHILL: I can have no knowledge of what will be the political complexion of the Lower Chamber until after the election has taken place.
  MR. MACKARNESS: But when that is ascertained—
  MR. CHURCHILL: No, I think, following the precedent of the Transvaal, the nominations for the Second Chamber will be made public before the elections take place for the Lower House.

  Chinese Labour Ordinance.
  MR. ALDEN: I beg to ask the Undersecretary of State for the Colonies whether he has any official information to the effect that General Botha has decided not to re-enact the Chinese Labour Ordinance; and, in the event of this being the case, could he state the date of expiration of the first contract and the number of Chinese to be repatriated on that date.
  MR. CHURCHILL: No, Sir, we have no information on these matters at present except the Press reports of General Botha's speech in the Transvaal Parliament.

  Sugar Bounties.
  MR. MITCHELL-THOMSON: I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether any representations have reached the Colonial Office from various chambers of commerce in the Colonies and India as to the importance of preventing the reimposition of sugar bounties and the formation of cartels; and, if so, from what chambers of commerce.
  MR. CHURCHILL: Representations on the subject of the Sugar Convention have been received from the following chambers of commerce and similar bodies in the Colonies as well as one from the Legislatures of Barbados and St. Kitts: Agricultural and Commercial Society, Antigua; Westmoreland Sugar Planters' Association, Jamaica; North side Sugar Planters' Association, Jamaica; Montreal Board of Trade; British Guiana Planters' Association; Chamber of Commerce, Georgetown, British Guiana; Chamber of Commerce of the Orange River Colony; Chamber of Commerce, Pietermaritzburg; Chamber of Commerce, Singapore; Vancouver Board of Trade; British Guiana Board of Agriculture; Sierra Leone Chamber of Commerce; Chamber of Commerce, Geelong, Victoria; Charters Towers Chamber of Commerce, Queens-
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  land; Canadian Manufacturers' Association, Toronto; Chamber of Agriculture, Mauritius; Chamber of Commerce and Agricultural Society, Trinidad. As regards India I must refer the hon. Member to the India Office.
  MR. FLYNN: Have not all these localities a direct pecuniary interest in keeping up the price of sugar?
  MR. CHURCHILL: It is very likely.

  Transvaal Loan.
  MR. LONSDALE: I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies what is the cash value to the Transvaal of the Imperial guarantee of the loan of £5,000,000; and how much does this represent per head of the Chinese coolies which are to be repatriated.
  MR. CHURCHILL: The saving to the Transvaal from the British guarantee which has been promised cannot be known until after the loan has been floated. When that event has taken place the hon. Member will be able himself to make the calculation which excites his curiosity or any other calculation of an equally serious and useful character.

  Labour for the Transvaal Mines.
  MR. FELL: I beg to ask the Undersecretary of State for the Colonies if he has any information whether the Committee appointed by the Transvaal Government to inquire into the question of the supply of labour for the mines has made its Report.
  MR. CHURCHILL: No, Sir.

  Colonial Conference Debate on Preferential Trade.
  MR. HAROLD COX: I beg to ask the Prime Minister whether, in view of the interest displayed in the full Report of the proceedings of the recent Colonial Conference, and especially of that part of the proceedings that related to preferential trade, he will try to secure the consent of all persons concerned to the publication of a verbatim report of the discussion upon preferential trade that took place in the Conference of 1902.
  MR. CHURCHILL: I have to refer the hon. Member to Cd. 1723, from which

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  it appears that some of the Prime Ministers present at the 1902 Conference, when consulted on the subject in 1903, stated that they adhered to the decision unanimously carried at the Conference, that the discussion should not be published, but the Secretary of State will now consult those Prime Ministers who then objected as to whether they are now prepared to reconsider the matter.

  Galapagos Islands.
  MR. LONSDALE: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether his attention has been called to the fact that a number of British West Indians have been held in a state of slavery on the Galapagos Islands; and whether any steps have been taken to procure their liberation.
  THE FINANCIAL SECRETARY TO THE TREASURY (MR. RUNCIMAN, Dewsbury, for Sir EDWARD GREY): Rumours having reached His Majesty's Government that a certain number of British subjects were detained at Chatham Island in the Galapagos. Group, His Majesty's Ship "Shearwater" was at once sent to inquire into the matter. Her commander has now reported that there are eleven West Indian negroes, British subjects, in the employment of a Colombian company in the island, which trades under the name of F. E. Ortiz & Company, the principal industry of which is a sugar plantation. These negroes are stated to have signed contracts with the company to work for one year and, should they at the end of that period owe money to the company, to continue working till their debt be paid. The men owe the company some $2,300 between them. This money has been borrowed from the company and is believed to have been lost in gambling. There is little, if any, prospect of the men being able to repay it, and they are therefore not in a position to leave the island. They have not been actually subjected to ill-treatment of a serious nature, and the commander of the British ship impressed upon the Governor his responsibility in the matter, and for their good treatment in future. His Majesty's Government will at once make representations to the Ecuadorian Government on the subject, and will communicate with the Governor of the West Indian Islands concerned. But as the report
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  was only received this morning there has not yet been time to consider it fully.
  MR. LONSDALE: Have no steps been taken to repatriate these men?
  MR. RUNCIMAN: We only received the report this morning, and could not possibly make any announcement this afternoon.
  MAJOR ANSTRUTHER-GRAY: Are we to understand that these men may be kept on the island an indefinite time?
  MR. RUNCIMAN: I did not say anything of the kind.

  Agricultural Rates Acts.
  MR. LEA: I beg to ask the Prime Minister whether he is aware that the sum given to the landed interests of this country under the Agricultural Rates Act, 1896, and which will not, under present, arrangements, expire until 1910, will by that period have amounted to £21,000,000 sterling; whether he can give an assurance that the Government will, at the earliest possible moment, take steps to discontinue this contribution to the landowners at the expense of the community; can he say whether the sum so saved will amount to £1,500,000 a year; and, if so, whether he will undertake to devote that amount to the nucleus of the old age-pension scheme.
  THE CHANCELLOR OR THE EXCHEQUER (Mr. ASQUITH, Fifeshire, E.): My hon. friend appears to have taken, for the purposes of his calculation, the amounts assignable out of the estate duty local taxation revenue to the relief of agricultural rates in Great Britain. Upon this basis his figures are approximately correct. The whole question of the relation between the Exchequer and local taxation is engaging the attention of the Government, and I am not prepared to give any pledge to deal with these particular grants independently of a more comprehensive scheme of readjustment.
  MR. LEA: In view of the number of pamphlets issued by the Liberal Publication Department during the last few years on behalf of the Party, complaining of these doles to owners of agricultural

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  land, cannot the right hon. Gentleman give an assurance to the House that he will put an end to them as soon as possible?
  [No Answer was returned.]

  Land and the Death Duties.
  MR. LEA: I beg to ask the Prime Minister if he is aware that, in the case of the death duties, agricultural land is not taxed according to its value in the market at the time of death, but taxed on a special scale which consists in taking it at not more than twenty-five times the net rental and calling that the value; what the estimated loss to the national Exchequer in each year respectively since the Finance Act, 1894, has boon through this exceptional treatment of the landowners of this country; and can he hold out any hope that before this Government vacates office it will bring in a Bill to reform this method of assessment and arrange that agricultural land shall be assessed to the death duties at its full market value, as is done in the case of any other form of property.
  MR. ASQUITH: By a proviso to Sub-section (5) of Section 7 of the Finance Act, 1694, a maximum is fixed, with reference to the value as assessed under Schedule A, beyond which the principal value of agricultural property cannot be assessed for purposes of estate duty. I have no data on which to base an estimate of the loss to the Exchequer which has resulted from this proviso, nor, so far as I am able to judge, has it been established that the selling value of such property exceeds the maximum fixed by the sub-section in a sufficient number of cases to cause loss of revenue to an appreciable amount.

  "The Mikado."
  MR. TREVELYAN: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether the Lord Chamberlain has yet taken any steps to withdraw his prohibition of the production of The Mikado.
  MR. HADDOCK: At the same time may I ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what is the decision of the Lord Chamberlain in regard to The Mikado music.
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE HOME DEPARTMENT (Mr. GLADSTONE, Leeds, W.): The Lord Chamberlain informs me that, having taken the matter into his careful consideration, he has felt justified in deciding, in the circumstances now obtaining, to withdraw the prohibition.
  MR. GEORGE FABER: May I ask whether the prohibition is unconditionally withdrawn?
  MR. GLADSTONE: Yes, Sir.
  SIR GILBERT PARKER: May I ask whether the slowness of the operation of the Lord Chamberlain's mind does not seem to traverse the statement he once made in this House that he was not an agricultural labourer?
  [No Answer was returned.]
  MR. LEAinquired whether any compensation had been paid to any persons or companies for the loss incurred by them.
  MR. GLADSTONE: No, Sir.
  MR. PIKE PEASE: Is it not a fact that The Mikado music has been played regularly by Japanese bands lately on warships?
  [No Answer was returned.]
  MR. WILLIAM REDMOND: Is it contemplated to pay any compensation to those persons and companies who have undoubtedly lost money owing to the prohibition of this play?
  MR. GLADSTONE: I have already answered in the negative.
  MR. WILLIAM REDMOND: It is very wrong.

  Licensing Returns.
  MR. LEIF JONES: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he will grant a Return for England and Wales of the civil parishes in rural districts and of the wards in urban districts and boroughs where there are no premises licensed for the sale of intoxicating

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  liquors by retail, showing also the population of each such parish or ward, and their total number and population.
  MR. GLADSTONE: To obtain the information asked for would involve considerable time and trouble, and I doubt whether the value of it, at all events as regards the wards of urban districts and boroughs, would be at all commensurate. If, however, my hon. friend wishes, I will endeavour to obtain the information as regards rural parishes.

  Brewery Shareholders as Licensing Justices.
  MR. LEA: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether, in view of the fact that a shareholder in a brewery company over which he has no control is precluded by law from sitting as a justice at licensing sessions, the Government will, in its new Licensing Bill, include a provision applying this disqualification to the proprietors of beverages and other supplies to licensed premises.
  MR. GLADSTONE: Though I have every sympathy with the desire that the proceedings of licensing benches should be free from any suspicion of personal interest, I cannot see my way at present to promise the legislation which my hon. friend suggests.

  Privileged Cabs.
  MR. STANGER: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he will propose legislation this session with a view to do away with the privileged cab system at railway stations; and, if so, whether he can state on what day he intends to bring in a Bill for the purpose.
  MR. GLADSTONE: Yes, Sir. I have in course of preparation a Bill to amend the Metropolitan Public Carriage Act, and I propose to insert in it a clause for this purpose. I cannot yet say how soon the Bill will be ready for introduction.

  Antwerp Stowaways.
  MR. FELL: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department if his attention has been called to the case of two stowaways, Henrick Garbe and Henrick Virmer, who were shipped at
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  Antwerp on the Red Star Liner "Zealand," taken to New York, and, not being allowed by the authorities to land there, were brought back and put on shore at Dover, where they were sentenced to three weeks hard labour; and whether in view of his power under the Aliens Act, he will have them deported to Antwerp.
  MR. GLADSTONE: The first part of this Question states the facts of the case correctly: but I have no such power under the Aliens Act as is suggested in the last part. My power of making an Expulsion Order in such a case depends upon the issue by the convicting Court of a certificate recommending expulsion. No such certificate was given in this case.

  Edalji Case.
  MR. F. E. SMITH: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he will cause a Return to be printed containing all the anonymous letters received by the police in connection with the outrages attributed to Edalji, with the incidents connected therewith and the dates of receipt.
  SIR BERKELEY SHEFFIELD: At the same time may I ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether all the information and documents which were before the Edalji Committee will be made available to Members of the House before the Home Office Vote is taken.
  May I also ask the Secretary of State for the Homo Department whether he will order the fullest available newspaper report of the Edalji case to be printed as a Parliamentary Paper, together with any other report in the possession of the Home Office, in order that such reports be in the hands of Members before the discussion on the Home Office Vote.
  MR. GLADSTONE: I do not propose to lay on the Table any further Papers connected with this case.
  VISCOUNT CASTLEREAGH: I beg to ask the Prime Minister whether his attention has been called to the fact that Edalji, who was the victim of an unsatisfactory conviction

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  and has lost all his professional prospects in consequence, is at present unable to procure employment, and is dependent upon his family and friends; and whether the Government will order a public inquiry directed to the specific issue whether or not he was the author of the anonymous letters.
  MR. GLADSTONE: My right hon. friend has asked me to answer this Question. Every point in this case, including the question of the authorship of the letters, has been very fully considered, and the Government are not prepared to take any further steps in the matter.
  VISCOUNT CASTLEREAGH: Will the Government do nothing to relieve Edalji of the suspicion of being the author of those letters.?
  MR. GLADSTONE: I am afraid I can add nothing to my Answer.

  London Bating Return.
  MR. WEIR: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will state when the Return, Metropolitan Boroughs (Non-Payment of Rates), granted on the 20th March last, is likely to be published.
  MR. GLADSTONE: It has not been possible to publish the Return earlier, as the figures for one of the boroughs were only received this morning, but it will now be laid before the House at once.

  Eight Hours Bill Committee.
  SIR J. HANDLES: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department when the remainder of the evidence taken before the Committee on the Eight Hours Bill will be circulated.
  MR. GLADSTONE: The intention has been to publish the remainder of the evidence with the index, which would be the most convenient plan. The index, however, will not be ready for issue until about the middle of next month, whereas the remainder of the evidence, without the index, could be published early next week. If any general desire for the early publication of the rest of the evidence is brought to my notice I will arrange for it to be issued without waiting for the index.

  Empty Houses in London and Leeds.
  MR. GEORGE FABER: I beg to ask the President of the Local Government Board, whether he can state the number of empty houses in London and Leeds, respectively.
  THE PRESIDENT OF THE LOCAL GOVERNMENT BOARD (Mr. JOHN BURNS, Battersea): I have not been able to obtain any later information on this subject than that contained in the Report of the Census of 1901. According to that Report, the number of houses which were uninhabited on the night of the Census, 1901, was in London 40,069, and in Leeds 6,300. Of these, however, 24,098 in London and 2,832 in Leeds were in occupation, i.e., were in use for business or other purposes, but were without inmates on the Census night. This leaves 15,971 houses in London not in occupation, and 3,468 in Leeds.
  MR. GEORGE FABER: How do these figures compare with earlier figures on the same subject?
  MR. JOHN BURNS: I have perused many figures official and otherwise, and it would be safe to say there are now more empty houses both in London and Leeds, due to better education and the removal of people from slum districts, from small to better houses.
  MR. GEORGE FABER: Is it not also due to unemployment and the shaking of the confidence of the people in the security of all kinds of property?

  Emigration of Children to Canada.
  MR. C. DUNCAN: I beg to ask the President of the Local Government Board whether his attention has been directed to the action of the Paddington board of guardians, on 5th June, 1907, in recommending that a child, named Daisy Hett, who is now eight years of age, is to be emigrated to Canada, the guardians using the plea that the child's consent has been obtained; and whether the Board intend to sanction such proposals in the future.
  MR. JOHN BURNS: My attention has been drawn to this case. The child has been deserted by her parents, and has not any known relations. She has been certified as being in good health,

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  and a suitable subject for emigration to Canada. The emigration is proposed to be effected through the Waifs and Strays Society, in one of whose Homes the child has been maintained for upwards of four years. The consent referred to in the Question is required by the statutory provision under which the guardians are empowered to expend money in the emigration of orphan and deserted children. I am not aware of any reason far withholding sanction to proposals of this kind.
  MR. J. WARD: Does the right hon. Gentleman think eight years a suitable age to recommend the emigration of the children?
  MR. JOHN BURNS: It depends on the home to which the child is taken. If it is a good one, and it is proposed to. adopt the child, as frequently happens in Canada and elsewhere, and as the managers of the Homes for Waifs and Strays satisfy themselves on that point, I do think it is for the permanent benefit of the child, who has as a rule been deserted by both parents.
  MR. J. WARD: Is it a case of adoption in this instance, or is it a case of hiring out?
  MR. JOHN BURNS: When I was in Canada, eighteen months ago, I looked into the question of the reception of the poor children from this country, and I was more than pleased at the excellent homes provided in the overwhelming majority of cases.
  MR. C. DUNCAN: What is the matter with the home in which the child now is?
  MR. JOHN BURNS: It is not to be expected that children will be detained in poor law schools and workhouses for the whole of their lives, and, in the absence of homes for them in England, I do not object to their going to Canada.

  Food Regulation Bill.
  MR. ALDEN: I beg to ask the President of the Local Government Board, in view of the non-introduction of the Food Regulation Bill, whether he can state the degree in which his Bill has the support of the loading sanitary authorities and medical officers of the country, and the
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  extent to which it is opposed by such authorities.
  MR. JOHN BURNS: My hon. friend is under a misapprehension in supposing that the Bill to which he refers has not been introduced this session. It was brought in some time since and is now awaiting Second Reading. I have received representations from several sanitary authorities in favour of the measure, and from none against it.

  Colwyn Bay.
  MR. WEIR: I beg to ask the President of the Local Government Board if he is aware that last year the supply of water for flushing the drains of Colwyn Bay was quite inadequate for the purpose; and will he take the necessary steps to see that the local authorities provide a sufficient supply of water during the summer months to keep the drains properly flushed.
  MR. JOHN BURNS: I was not aware that complaints had been made on this subject, but I have communicated with the clerk to the urban district council, and he informs me that the supply of water into the drains is quite sufficient for flushing purposes.
  MR. REES: Is it not the fact that Welsh local bodies need no stimulant, Scotch or other, to induce them to perform their duties?
  MR. WEIR, said that, in consequence of the very unsatisfactory Answer of the right hon. Gentleman, he would raise this question on the earliest possible opportunity.
  MR. JOHN BURNS: I can only say that the nature of the drainage and water-supply of this district is proved by the fact that last year the death-rate was only 9 per 1,000.

  Horsham Telegraphists and Telephone Duties.
  VISCOUNT TURNOUR: I beg to ask the Postmaster-General whether his attention has been called to the fact that various telegraphists at the Horsham Post Office have been asked to perform telephone duties between 10 a.m. and 10 p.m. on Sundays at 6d. per hour; whether the scales of

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  overtime payment for Sunday provide for the payment of Sunday duty at the rate of a race and a half, and the payment of 6d. per hour would mean a considerable reduction of payment; and whether he will state the reason for the action of the authorities, and whether he authorised it.
  THE POSTMASTER-GENERAL (MR. SYDNEY BUXTON, Tower Hamlets, Poplar): In the case to which the hon. Member refers inquiry was made whether any members of the Post-Office staff, outdoor or indoor, were willing to give attendance to the telephone exchange on Sundays for the remuneration which the light nature of the duties would justify. Assent was entirely optional on their part, and if they do not wish to undertake the duty other arrangements will be made. The rate of pay for ordinary Sunday duty is a rate and a half. The reason for the action taken at Horsham was the desire to afford a continuous telephone service.
  MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN: Then are we to understand that Post-Office officials are allowed to volunteer to do work at lower rates?
  MR. SYDNEY BUXTON: I do not gather the point.
  MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN: I understand that those people are paid below the usual rates, and that the right hon. Gentleman justifies that on the ground that they volunteered to do the work.
  MR. SYDNEY BUXTONI do not think that is the position. If it were I should be adverse to it. I will inquire into the matter from that point of view.
  VISCOUNT TURNOUR: Did the right hon. Gentleman authorise it?
  MR. SYDNEY BUXTON: The arrangement was made locally.

  Government Offices and the Telephone.
  MR. WEIR: I beg to ask the Postmaster-General in view of the difficulty experienced in communicating by telephone with the India Office, will arrangements be made for the telephone
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  numbers of the private secretaries of the various Government Offices to be inserted in the London Telephone Directory.
  MR. SYDNEY BUXTON: It is the practice of the Post Office to ask the Government Departments concerned whether they wish the exchange numbers of their telephone lines to be published in the Telephone Directory. A good many numbers are so published, but I could not interfere with the discretion of the heads of the various Departments in the matter.

  Sunday Telegraphing.
  MR. WARDLE: I beg to ask the Postmaster-General what railway telegraph offices are open for the transmission of postal telegrams on Sundays; whether the railway companies are paid by the Government for such work; and, if so, are the railway clerks who perform it paid extra for their Sunday duty.
  MR. SYDNEY BUXTON: Public telegraph business is transacted on Sundays at nearly 700 railway stations, the railway companies receiving payment for such business at special commission rates. I have no knowledge of the arrangements between the railway companies and their servants as regards pay.

  Post Office and Workmen's Compensation Insurance.
  Mr. WEDGWOOD: I beg to ask the Postmaster-General if the Department's Committee appointed by him to inquire whether the Post Office should provide facilities for workmen's compensation insurance has reported; and, if so, whether he will lay the Report upon the Table of the House.
  MR. SYDNEY BUXTON: The Committee has reported, and I propose to lay the Report upon the Table forthwith.

  Canadian Magazine Postal Rates.
  MR. HOWELL DAVIES: I beg to ask the Postmaster-General whether, in the postal arrangements recently made with Canada, the reduction in the postage rate applied only to magazines and not to English newspapers; whether he is aware that a large number of persons have been fined for insufficient postage on newspapers sent to Canada

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  through mistaking the terms of the new arrangement; and whether he will at once notify the public that newspapers are not included in the agreement.
  MR. SYDNEY BUXTON: All newspapers registered for transmission in the United Kingdom at the newspaper rate of postage can be sent to Canada at the Canadian magazine rate. A considerable number of newspapers not registered for transmission in the United Kingdom have been specially registered for transmission to Canada at the new rate of postage. I have reason to think that the principal causes of the charges for insufficient postage on packets prepaid at the reduced rates are the inclusion in them of unregistered periodicals and of articles altogether outside the arrangement. Further, some of these packets have been marked by the senders for transmission by way of New York, to which route the new rate of postage does not apply. The conditions under which magazines, newspapers, etc., enjoy the privilege of the reduced postage are clearly set forth in the official announcement.

  London Telegraph Messengers.
  MR. ASHLEY: I beg to ask the Postmaster General how many telegraph messengers are on duty after 7 p.m. in London; how often are the shifts changed; and what opportunity is given to these boys to attend a continuous course at any evening school, with a view of their obtaining skilled employment on discharge from the Post Office.
  MR. SYDNEY BUXTON: I will obtain the information desired and communicate with the hon. Member.
  MR. ASHLEY: I beg to ask the Postmaster-General how many telegraph messengers under the age of nineteen were discharged from post offices in the London district by reason of age in the year 1906; and how many of these boys bore certificates of satisfactory service.
  MR. SYDNEY BUXTON: I will obtain this information and communicate with the hon. Member.

  South Kensington College of Science.
  MR. ASHLEY: I beg to ask the President of the Board of Education
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  whether he can state the names of those appointed to represent the Board of Education on the governing body of the new College of Science at South Kensington.
  THE PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD OF EDUCATION (MR. MCKENNA, Monmouthshire, N.): The names are Mr. Arthur Acland, Dr. Glazebrook, Mr. F. G. Ogilvie, the Principal Assistant Secretary of the Technological Branch of the Board; and Mr. J. C. Sykes, Assistant Secretary in the same branch.

  Education of Vagrant Children.
  MR. WHITEHEAD: I beg to ask the President of the Board of Education whether he has any information or statistics showing how far the children of gipsies and vagrants escape elementary education; and, if not, whether he can see his way to appoint an inspector with the special duty of inquiring into this matter and superintending the enforcement of the Education Acts for the benefit of children of this class.
  MR. McKENNA: I have no information or statistics bearing on this question. The enforcement of school attendance is a matter primarily for the local education authority. The inspector in each district will give the authority any assistance in his power. I do not think the special appointment for this purpose of an inspector, who must necessarily have a slight knowledge of the various districts which he would require to visit in the course of his duties, would materially assist the end in view.

  Kentish Fruit Pickers' Children.
  MR. WHITEHEAD: I beg to ask the President of the Board of Education whether his attention has been called to the fact that large numbers of children, who are brought by their parents into the county of Kent for the fruit and hop-picking seasons, evade the provisions of the Elementary Education Acts; and whether any special steps are now taken by the Board of Education to secure that such children shall obtain their education during the winter months.
  MR. McKENNA: I think most of these children come from the Metropolitan area, and I have no doubt that the London County Council take all necessary

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  steps to secure their attendance at school when they return from the country. I fear difficulties must inevitably arise when children migrate to a new district inasmuch as school holidays are taken at different dates in different areas.

  Mall Improvement.
  VISCOUNT TURNOUR: I beg to ask the First Commissioner of Works by what date the new road between the Mall and Trafalgar Square will be completed.
  THE FIRST COMMISSIONER OF WORKS (Mr. HARCOURT, Lancashire, Rossendale): The date will depend upon the completion of the building. It is expected that it will be finished early in 1909.

  Gooseberry Mildew in Worcestershire.
  MR. LAURENCE HARDY: I beg to ask the hon. Baronet representing the Board of Agriculture whether he is aware that a very serious outbreak of gooseberry mildew has occurred in Worcestershire, and whether, in view of the fact that there are not sufficient legal powers in the hands of any authority to deal effectively with the matter, he will pass through the House with the utmost speed the Destructive Insects and Pests Bill, which is awaiting the Second Reading.
  THE TREASURER OF THE HOUSEHOLD (SIR EDWARD STRACHEY, Somersetshire, E.): We are aware of the regrettable outbreak of this disease in Worcestershire, and we are most anxious to obtain the passage as soon as possible of the Bill which has been introduced with the object of giving further powers to the Board and to local authorities to deal with such diseases. A Memorandum explanatory of the provisions of the Bill has been laid upon the Table for the convenience of Members. If there is general agreement in favour of the Bill I hope it may be possible to pass it through the remaining stages without delay as an unopposed measure, as the matter is one of great urgency.
  MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN: In view of the great damage being done, cannot the Government undertake to find a little time for this Bill?
  SIR EDWARD STRACHEY: If it is so urgent there ought to be no difficulty in reading it a second time and sending it upstairs at once.

  Evicted Tenants Bill.
  MR. MOORE: I beg to ask the Prime Minister if the Evicted Tenants Bill has yet been prepared; when it will be introduced; and what facilities he is prepared to allow for its discussion on introduction.
  THE CHIEF SECRETARY FOR IRELAND (Mr. BIRRELL, Bristol, N.): I propose to introduce the Evicted Tenants Bill under the Ten Minutes Rule in the course of next week.
  MR. MOORE: Will the Bill be submitted for the consideration of any private Member before its introduction?
  MR. BIRRELL: If the hon. Member has any helpful advice to give, I shall be very glad to receive it.
  MR. MOORE: Will the right hon. Gentleman consider whether it would facilitate matters if the names of the parties within the scope of the Bill were furnished to the House?
  MR. BIRRELL: No.
  Mr. SWIFT MACNEILL: Will the measure be like the Bill of 1894, which was passed by this House and thrown out by the hon. Member's friends in the House of Lords?
  Mr. BIRRELL: Eiusdem generis.

  Belfast Telegraph Messengers.
  MR. SLOAN: I beg to ask the Postmaster-General if his attention has been called to the fact that two assistant inspectors of postmen at Belfast were recently reported for employing telegraph messengers under sixteen years of age, the official minimum, to deal with public correspondence; and whether, in view of the fact that no older boys were available, he will explain why twenty-one boys, who had been detained from three to five years on the understanding that they would receive permanent employment as postmen as vacancies occurred, were a few months ago dismissed from

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  the service, and in some cases warned of impending dismissal, as places could not be found for them.
  MR. SYDNEY BUTTON: Inquiry at Belfast has disclosed no recollection or record of the circumstances alluded to in the Question.

  South Kensington College of Science.
  MR. ASHLEY: I beg to ask the Prime Minister whether he can state the names of those appointed by the Crown to the governing body of the new College of Science at South Kensington.
  THE PRIME MINISTER AND FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY (Sir H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN, Stirling Burghs): The following have accepted nomination: Lord Crewe, Sir Julius Wernher, Sir William White, Sir Francis Mowatt, Dr. Donald MacAlister, (Principal of Glasgow University). Correspondence is still proceeding as to the sixth Crown nominee.

  The Indian Budget Debate.
  MR. HAROLD COX: I beg to ask the Prime Minister whether his attention has been called to the fact that on Thursday the 6th June the House did not go into Committee on the Indian Estimates; and on what day he proposes to ask the House to carry out the practice which has been followed without intermission for many years by both political Parties.
  MR. REES: I beg also to ask the Prime Minister when the adjourned debate on the Indian Budget will be taken.
  SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN: I am aware that the House did not go into Committee on the Indian Estimates, but I cannot say as yet when an opportunity will be provided for carrying out the practice which my hon. friend reminds me has been followed for many years. An opportunity will be found for complying with this formality.
  MR. REES: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that only six private Members and only three Members of the Indian services were able to take part in the debate?

  Appointments of Magistrates.
  SIR F. BANBURY: I beg to ask the Prime Minister whether he is aware that both political Parties in the borough of Colchester have always jointly recommended names for submission to the Lord Chancellor for appointment as magistrates: whether he is aware that the recommendations of the borough council have been recently rejected, and that consequently the political equality which has hitherto practically existed on the local bench has been destroyed; and whether he will bring the matter to the notice of the Lord Chancellor with the view of restoring the old practice.
  SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN: I am informed by the Lord Chancellor that it is not true that the recommendations of the borough council have been rejected. Five out of seven names they recommended were appointed. Political equality on the local bench did not practically exist until the recent appointments were made. It does exist now. The Lord Chancellor is not aware that any practice has prevailed in Colchester for both political parties to join in recommending names. There can be no objection to recommendations being so made, but that will not at all affect the duty of the Lord Chancellor to exercise his own discretion and to prevent the position of Justice being treated as a reward for political services.

  Marriage with a Deceased Wife's Sister Bill.
  MR. MYER: I beg to ask the Prime Minister whether the Government will give its support to the Deceased Wife's Sister Bill, in view of the popular feeling that exists throughout the country in favour of the passing of this Bill into law.
  SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN: I have received a memorial signed by a large number of hon. Members on this matter, but there has not yet been time to arrive at a decision. I am, however, quite aware of the strong feeling which exists in favour of passing the Bill.

  Income Tax Commissioners.
  MR. STRAUS: I beg to ask the Prime Minister whether he will consider the desirability

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  of introducing legislation to abolish the property qualifications attached to the office of Income Tax Commissioner in the same way as the qualification of justice of peace has been abolished.
  SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN: I have nothing to add to the Answer given by my right hon. friend the President of the Board of Education on behalf of my hon. friend the Secretary to the Treasury to a similar Question on 30th May.†

  Blocking Motions.
  LORD R. CECIL: I beg to ask the Prime Minister whether any steps have been taken by the Government to carry out the pledge, given by Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer before Easter, that they would introduce a Standing Order dealing with the practice of setting down Motions and introducing Bills for the purpose of hindering Parliamentary discussion.
  SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN: A proposed Order will be submitted to the Opposition Whip this week. I think the noble Lord, if he looks at the Order Paper, will see that the question is not really so very urgent. There are six blocking Motions on the Paper all affecting India, and of these five are in the names of hon. Members on that side of the House.

  Suspension of Members.
  MR. MOORE: I beg to ask the Prime Minister if it is intended to complete Standing Order 18, subsection (2); and if such will be proposed during the present session.
  SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN: This torso of a Rule of Procedure as to which the hon. Gentleman questions me is the work of the late Government which was left in this condition in 1903, and several years have passed during which its authors appear to have been so satisfied with its beauty as a work of legislation as to be content to leave it alone. We have not as yet had time at our disposal, even if we possessed the courage, to attempt a suitable solution of the problem handed down to us.
  † See (4) Debates, clxxv., 88–9

  Lord Rosebery and House of Lords Reform.
  MR. SWIFT MACNEILL: I beg to ask the Prime Minister whether his attention has been directed to the fact that Lord Rosebery, speaking as Prime Minister at Bradford on 27th October, 1894, said that the House of Commons, in dealing with the House of Lords, could only proceed in the first place by Resolution; and will he say whether the Resolution thus referred to by Lord Rosebery is extant, and, if not, what has become of it; and, in the event of this Resolution or any draft of it being in existence, could a copy of it be laid upon the Table of the House.
  VISCOUNT TURNOUR: Before the Prime Minister answers that Question, may I ask him if he will consider the advisability of laying on the Table a verbatim report of the speech recently made by Lord Rosebery on the subject of the Government's policy towards the House of Lords?
  SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMANThe noble Lord has been a short time in this House, but he must know that such a request could not possibly be granted. Of course it is never done. The statement of my noble friend would appear to have been made at a very elementary stage of the controversy which had then arisen. I am sure that he had a fitting Resolution in his mind, but if it was drafted it must have evaporated, for there is no trace of it in the archives of the Treasury. The Question which my hon. friend asks me is "What has become of it if it is not extant?" It is quite beyond my powers to answer that Question. It might have been possible, although hardly useful, to endeavour to trace its history if it existed, but to follow the after life of a Resolution, thirteen years after it perished, is beyond even the powers of a Public Department.
  MR. SWIFT MACNEILLasked whether the right hon. Gentleman was aware that in that speech Lord Rosebery said he had put his hand to the plough and would not turn back, and that he also referred to the lessons of 1678.
  MR. SPEAKER: Order, order ! I do not see that Lord Rosebery's speeches have anything to do with the question.
  MR. WILLIAM REDMOND: Nothing at all.
  MR. LEAasked whether in view of the fact that the noble Lord described himself as a "croaking raven," they should not disregard his speech.
  MR. SPEAKER: I must protest against dragging in references to speeches made outside this House, whether by noble Lords or other persons.

  Adult Suffrage.
  MR. HUDSON: I beg to ask the Prime Minister if, by Letters Patent under Seal of the United Kingdom just issued, the Constitution granted to the Orange River Colony is based on an electorate of adult white population with a six months registered qualification; and, if so, whether His Majesty's Government, at an early date, contemplate taking steps to extend the franchise in this country to the adult population, with a complete system of registration on a three months qualification.
  SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN: The hon. Gentleman asks me whether we are prepared to introduce certain far-reaching reforms in the franchise and registration laws at an early date. I am afraid there are not many early dates available, and that I cannot hold out any immediate hope of our being able to follow the excellent example of the Orange River Colony.

  Education Bill.
  SIR FRANCIS POWELL: I beg to ask the Prime Minister when he intends to move the Second Reading of the Education (Administrative Provisions) Bill.
  SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN: This Bill is not in my hands, but in those of my right hon. friend at the Board of Education. No time can yet be named for its Second Reading.

  Government Messengerships.
  SIR SAMUEL SCOTT: I beg to ask the Prime Minister whether, in view of the appointment to permanent messenger ships at Government offices of men who have had no previous occupation, he will
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  take steps to secure a larger number of such appointments in the future for ex-soldiers and ex-sailors of good character, a large number of whom are unemployed.
  SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN: The hon. Member, I presume, means no previous occupation in the public service.
  SIR SAMUEL SCOTT: No.
  SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN: Then I do not quite understand the Question. I do not think anyone would put into the Government services men who previously had had no occupation at all. At any rate I do not see that I can give him any pledge of the kind for which he asks. All I can say is that due regard will be paid to the qualifications of the men appointed to the posts in question.
  SIR SAMUEL SCOTT: But the Patronage Secretary in answer to a Question as to appointments of messengers gave the occupations of some and stated that two of the men appointed had not had previous occupations.
  SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN: He must have meant in the public service.
  SIR SAMUEL SCOTT: No; because—
  MR. SPEAKER: Order, order
  VISCOUNT TURNOURasked if the right hon. Gentleman would bear in mind the recommendation of a Committee that ex-soldiers and sailors should be given the appointments?
  SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN: A good deal is being done in that direction. I do not think we can go any further at present.

  Education Votes
  DR. RUTHERFORD: I beg to ask the Prime Minister whether he can say on what day the Education Votes will be taken.
  SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN: No Sir, I cannot as yet say on what date the Education Votes will be taken.

  Sugar Duties.
  MR. REMNANT: I beg to ask the Prime Minister whether, in the event of the withdrawal of the United Kingdom from the Brussels Convention, it is the intention of His Majesty's Government to take any steps, by the imposition of countervailing duties or otherwise, to check the unfair competition of bounty-fed sugar with sugar which has not received such bounties.
  SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN: The position of His Majesty's Government with respect to countervailing duties and other methods of restricting the sources from which we may draw our supplies of sugar was clearly explained in the statement made to the House on the 6th instant by my right hon. friend the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs.† To that statement I have nothing to add.

  Lanarkshire Feuars—Underground Workings.
  MR. FINDLAY: I beg to ask the Prime Minister whether he is aware of the damage that is being done to dwelling houses and public property in certain industrial centres in Lanarkshire by underground workings, causing much loss to feuars, who in many cases own their homes, and involving risk of life to others; and whether, in view of the situation thus created, he will undertake to give facilities so that the Feus and Building Leases (Scotland) Bill at present before Parliament, which seeks to give more equitable conditions to the individuals and communities who at present suffer from damages by mineral workings, may become law during this session.
  SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN: I regret the unfortunate situation in which the feuars are placed, but at this period of the session it is impossible to ask the House to deal with it.
  MR. FINDLAY: May I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he would not think it desirable to appoint a Select Committee (as in 1893) to inquire into the working of the law in Scotland relating to feus and leases for buildings, including the casualties payable to the superior and the conditions frequently inserted in feu charters and leases for
  † See (4) Debates, clxxv., 837–9
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  building, and the titles under which the superior claims those powers; and to consider whether any, and if any what, amendment of the law is required?
  SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN: I am well aware what a complicated question this is, and how many grievances and anomalies it presents. I will consider whether a Select Committee should be appointed to inquire into the subject.

  The Brussels Sugar Convention.
  MR. HAROLD COX: I beg to ask the Prime Minister whether, in view of the number of Members of this House who are pledged to vote for the withdrawal of this country from the Brussels Sugar Convention, he will give the House an opportunity of discussing the subject before the country is committed to any other course.
  SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN: At the present stage it would not be proper for me to add anything to the statement made by my right hon. friend the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs on the 6th inst.† From that statement my hon. friend will understand the nature of the communications which are now taking place with the Governments of the other contracting States on the subject of the Sugar Convention.

  Grand Committees—Reporting.
  MR. A. J. BALFOURasked the Prime Minister whether he could provide a shorthand report of the proceedings of Grand Committees, or, at all events, the important Grand Committees which were now sitting, or about to sit upon first-class Government measures. He had given the Prime Minister no private notice, and very likely the right hon. Gentleman would like to have such notice. The matter was of importance.
  SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMANsaid he would be glad if the right hon. Gentleman would repeat the Question on Wednesday or Thursday.
  MR. A. J. BALFOUR: said he would prefer Wednesday, because he understood the Committee on the English Land Bill was going to meet on Thursday.
  † See (4) Debates, clxxv., 837–9

  PROBATION OF OFFENDERS (No. 2) BILL.
  Reported, with Amendments, from Standing Committee B.
  Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 197.]
  Minutes of the Proceedings of the Standing Committee to be printed. [No, 197.]
  Bill, as amended (in the Standing Committee), to be taken into consideration upon Monday next, and to be printed. [Bill 239.]

  RELEASED PERSONS (POOR LAW RELIEF) BILL.
  Reported, without Amendment, from Standing Committee B.
  Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 198.]
  Minutes of the Proceedings of the Standing Committee to be printed. [No. 198.]
  Bill to be taken into consideration upon Monday next.

  LIMITED PARTNERSHIPS (RE-COMMITTED) BILL.
  Reported, with an Amendment, from Standing Committee A.
  Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 200.]
  Minutes of the Proceedings of the Standing Committee to be printed. [No. 200.]
  Bill, as amended (in the Standing Committee), to be taken into consideration to-morrow, and to be printed. [Bill 240.]

  PUBLIC RIGHTS OF WAY (No. 2) BILL.
  Reported, with Amendments, from Standing Committee A.
  Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 201.]
  Minutes of the Proceedings of the Standing Committee to be printed. [No. 201.]
  Bill, as amended (in the Standing Committee), to be taken into consideration to-morrow, and to be printed. [No. 241.]

  FACTORY AND WORKSHOP BILL [LORDS].
  Read the first time; to be read a second time upon Wednesday, and to be printed. [Bill 244.]

TERRITORIAL AND RESERVE FORCES BILL.
As amended, considered.
Clause 1—
MR. ARNOLD-FORSTERmoved an Amendment to exempt the Militia from the operation of the clause. He did not think it would be necessary to carry the Amendment to a division, as last week the Secretary for War was good enough to give the Loader of the Opposition encouragement to hope that the views entertained by many on that side of the House with regard to the Militia would receive his favourable attention. He sincerely trusted that would be the case. It was some weeks ago since he ventured to suggest that a compromise might be arrived at, and that it might be found possible without destroying the scheme of the right hon. Gentleman that the Militia should be reintroduced into our first line. The Leader of the Opposition had referred to the illuminating example of the Irish Militia, in whose case the difficulty with regard to the special contingent, which the Secretary for War at one time thought insuperable, had been got over. It had been found possible to regard some of the Irish battalions, not only as sources from which drafts might be supplied, but also as units, which in certain eventualities might take the field as battalions. His right hon. friend made the important suggestion that the principle which had been accepted on the other side of the Irish Channel should be accepted on this side also. If that suggestion, to which he understood the right hon. Gentleman had given a conditional assent, were

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adopted, it would be a great relief to many on that side of the House, as it would permit the Militia to remain as an existing force in our Army organisation. It might be that the right hon. Gentleman would suggest that some of the battalions should be differentiated, as regarded their treatment, from the others; that, he understood, was the case in Ireland. In Ireland a certain number of battalions were to be turned into third battalions of the Regular Army, and to be made liable for service in time of war, and were to act if necessary as units for the purpose of guarding lines of communication or the occupation of fortresses. The remaining battalion were to be retained for the purpose of supplying drafts. He understood that that proposal might be applied to the English Militia. Substantially his view would be met by an arrangement of that kind. He did not, however, believe it was possible to separate the battalions one from another and say that this battalion should or should not be stamped for all time as a unit which would take the field in time of war with its own officers. But the principle would be accepted that the Militia were to exist in the future as they had existed in the past, and if that were so his objection to the Bill would be very greatly decreased, if not altogether removed. Yet this could not be the end, but rather the beginning, of the change in respect of the Militia. The right hon. Gentleman had been good enough to confirm the views they had held with regard to the Militia, and had admitted that before they became a valuable force they must undergo serious changes, and, he would say, serious reforms. He thought the right hon. Gentleman would find after he had taken this very wise step that there was still a great deal to do, because the real difficulty in regard, to the Militia was the pressure from the Line to which they were always subjected. As this pressure would not be removed, eventually they would have to go a little further. But for the present, unless he was misinformed, he understood the Militia would remain and would not be destroyed; they would be made liable for service abroad in time of war; they would become the Territorial battalions of the Regular Army; and they would be officered to a considerable extent by officers of the Regular Army. Those four points would carry them a long way
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towards bringing back the Militia to the position they once occupied, and which he hoped they would occupy again. He hoped he had said nothing in this matter in a controversial spirit. That was not the spirit which animated him. Ever since the right hon. Gentleman made his announcement last week he had felt that there was hope of light on the matter. He hoped the right hon. Gentleman would now be able to confirm the outline which he had laid before the House as representing the views of the Opposition, and that he would be able to state in greater detail what he proposed to do in carrying out the pledge given to the Leader of the Opposition as to the maintenance of the Militia as a live part of our military organisation.
Amendment proposed to the Bill—
"In page 1, line 8, after the word' Regulars ' to insert the words 'and Militia.' "— (Mr. Arnold-Forster.)
Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted in the Bill."
THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WAR (Mr. HALDANE, Haddington): The Amendment of the right hon. Gentleman gives me, at all events, the opportunity of making a statement on the position which arose at the conclusion of the debate last Monday. The Leader of the Opposition made a suggestion which seemed to me so feasible that I undertook to consider it, and I was the more able to consider it because the whole matter had been before my mind for two months past. Indeed, I think that, but for the attitude and decision of the commanders and officers of the Militia, who frankly refused to supply drafts, the controversy would not have arisen in its acute stage. If they had adopted a different position there might have been a different form for Part III. of the Bill. But the more I have looked into the matter the more I have been convinced it was a happy opposition, because it has given us the opportunity of making the care of the first line the overriding consideration and of producing an organisation simpler than if we had dealt with the matter in a mere spirit of compromise. I entirely agree with what was said by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for the City of London. The right hon. Gentleman referred to our proposals in regard to the Irish Militia,

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and said why not, at any rate as regards a large part of the English Militia, organise it so that we may get what I think he and his friends regarded as a great point, namely, relief units which will be available as units. The right hon. Gentleman went on to say that it was wholly consistent with the demands which I had made upon the population for war purposes, and that it fitted in with the general lines of the Bill. The right hon. Gentleman said it was perfectly consistent with that part of the scheme, and he suggested that I should consider whether I could not modify, not the root ideas of the plan, but what are really mere details, so as to extend to England and Scotland the same scheme of Militia organisation as I had applied to Ireland, subject to the qualification that in Ireland there are no Volunteers to take the place of the Militia. I think I can meet the suggestion of the right hon. Gentleman, and meet it with all the better conscience because it has been my own idea since May last. I think we have got to a happy solution. Not one line will have to be changed—not one part of the machinery altered. It is a question of organisation under the powers which the Bill proposes to confer, and I will explain to the House how we can work it out. The original scheme of the Bill was that we should take sixty-six Regular regiments in England and Scotland, and eight Regular regiments in Ireland, and that we should put behind each of the sixty-six a third battalion, the primary function of which should be to train drafts to supply the wastage of war, and which might, in case of mobilisation, throw off men for lines of communication and for relief purposes. In the case of Ireland we proposed to do the same, but to organise also twelve battalions behind the eight Irish third battalions, which should be enlisted under Part III., the men of which should be under precisely the same engagements as the men in the third battalions, but their primary purpose should be to furnish units, though also liable to supply drafts, as in the case of the existing battalions. When I came to consider the working out of the scheme with the Adjutant-General he pointed out some time ago that, in the establishments we were proposing to take away, we were taking away more than was necessary, because he thought it right to provide a margin of safety. I should give the
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numbers. In addition to twelve Irish battalions, it is proposed to organise fifteen more in England and Scotland, which will give twenty-seven units for lines of communication and reliefs, and these units will be available in times of great necessity to find drafts. They will be behind and independent of the third battalions. They will principally serve as fourth battalions to certain territorial regiments, and in that way we shall have a provision for drafts in case of emergency, but primarily we shall have twenty-seven battalions for the purpose of providing relief units. As regards men in the fourth battalions as I call them, for short, the strength will be 800. Now, as regards officers, we have made provision for the creation of a reserve of officers, but it will necessarily take a little time before it becomes operative. This plan will enable us to give to junior Militia officers under thirty-five the position at once of going into the reserve of officers, and, as such, they will be in a much better position than they are at the present time. Under the scheme they will have £20 a year retaining fee for taking engagements to serve abroad. I am talking now of men below the rank of major. These officers would be required for the purposes of the third battalions and also for the purposes of the fourth battalions. In the third battalions we propose to provide a large proportion of Regular officers, because we think it necessary in order to make the training machinery as perfect as possible. In the fourth battalions we shall not have quite as many Regular officers, so that we shall be able to make more use from the beginning of the junior Militia officers. These officers on mobilisation would become full Regular officers, taking their positions according to their ranks. Then as regards the senior Militia officers, the House knows that we are short enough of officers at present, and therefore we shall be in a position to make use of the senior officers of the Militia. We should ask them to go into, not the new Reserve of Officers which we propose to create, but into the existing Reserve of Officers into which retired officers of the Regular Army go to be available in the time of war; but I think we should be able to do for them what we cannot do for the old Reserve officers, and that is we should be able to ask them to come out to train their battalions. Shortly, our new proposals

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come to this: in Ireland the Militia battalions in substance will form eight third battalions with twelve fourth battalions behind them. They will cease to be Militia as such, and they will become Regulars, belonging to and forming part of the organisation of the Regular Army. In the case of the English and Scottish Militia they too—those of them whom we can take—will be asked to come in under Part III. of the Bill, but we do all we can to preserve their traditions, names, and colours. Let me take an analogy from the law. When a commercial company is to have a new constitution, what occurs? It is reconstructed. It is wound up, and it emerges under new articles of association under the Companies Acts, but with the same name, traditions, and shareholders, the same everything, except the legal constitution and the fresh capital. In the same manner the Militia battalions will rise, phœnix-like, in the form of third and fourth battalions.
MR. WYNDHAMasked whether there was to be any distinction under the plan between England and Scotland and Ireland.
MR. HALDANE: None. The only distinction is that we cannot take the whole 124 English Militia battalions. Some of them are in a most unsatisfactory condition, as they are unable to get the men, and it is much bettor that they should go into the Territorial Army, where we can take them in large numbers. The figures stand in this way. There are at present 124 Militia battalions in England, Scotland, and Ireland. Of these we propose to take material to furnish us with 101 battalions. There will remain a substantial number of weak Militia battalions, with which we can do very little, and, as I have said, we propose that these should go into the Territorial Army. Of the 101 battalions seventy-four will have an establishment of 500 men, with a large staff of officers, and twenty-seven will have an establishment of 800 men, with a substantial staff of officers. Now, I have sketched as nearly as possible the details of my proposal; but there is a great deal to work out, and naturally the House of Commons will ask for details of finance. I am glad to say the difference in money will be very little indeed. I shall be enabled to save the expenditure with the Militia, allowing the
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working-off engagements under the now system, while new officers come up under the Reserve. The change in our proposals will enable me to fill the Reserve of Officers by the machinery provided. On the whole, the arrangement seems to me, from a financial point of view, sufficient.
MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAINasked how the future finance of the new Army would be affected.
MR. HALDANE: Practically not at all. We take off on the one hand and put on the other.
MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN: After the transition period?
MR. HALDANE: It ultimately means that the Territorial Army will be a little cheaper and the other a little dearer. Of course there are a number of details I have not gone into. Depots will be assimilated, the cost of the Militia Staff will be saved, and the House may take it from me that there will be a great many economies effected from the change to a single force and by simplicity of organisation. I will not go further now than to say that there will be no substantial addition to the cost—something slight, but nothing that the House need trouble about. I have been asked if the proposal will apply to the Militia Garrison Artillery, and here the matter is much more difficult than with the Field Artillery, because the former is not what we want, but we shall endeavour to consult the feeling among the men as well as we can; there is no reason why we should not try to preserve the sentiment, the colours, the band, the name even. You cannot treat them eo nomine as a separate force for the Regular Army, but you can keep up the battalion with the same emblems, honourable traditions, and history, and we shall endeavour to do that as far as we can. I think I have now put before the House the main points, and if there is any further information required I will give it, as far as I can, in the form of replies to Questions.
MR. ARNOLD-FORSTERasked if the force would be under the county associations.
MR. HALDANE: No, no; for the future all the Militia in substance will belong to the Regular Army. There will be only two lines; we wipe out the intermediate organisation corresponding to the Militia. It may be said that this looks like increasing the Regular Army, and in one sense it is; but we are taking from the force behind it.
MR. A. J. BALFOUR: Speaking for myself, I thank the right hon. Gentleman for the modifications in his scheme which he has just explained to the House, and I think the House at large will be grateful to him for the statement he has made. He has told us that it has been in his mind for some time, and we can well believe it, for the germ, or more than the germ, of the proposal can be found in the Bill, and especially in that part which concerns the Irish Militia. There is no change in the substance of his original plan, nothing inconsistent with what I think is the root idea of the scheme. If that is true of the right hon. Gentleman, a similar observation can be made with regard to friends of mine on this side of the House. We fool that the scheme as regards the Militia fits in with our ideas for which we have been arguing, and so we are in the fortunate position of being in agreement in substance with what is proposed to be done, no matter to what school of thought we belong. I do not now wish to delay the House from entering upon other important matters which were not discussed in Committee, and I which I hope will receive attention on this Report stage; but there is one Question only I would like to ask. I almost gather from what the right hon. Gentleman said that in his opinion this modification of his plan can be carried out without alteration of the Bill; but surely the transfer from the second to the first line of the whole of the Militia battalions—surely that change will require some modification of the actual wording of the Bill? If not, it seems to me that our discussions have been upon no particular plan. Will he explain how it is that the important modification can be carried out without altering a word or comma in the Bill?
MR. HALDANE: The right hon. Gentlemen has met me in so handsome a manner and in such an admirable spirit
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that I feel almost anxious to make Amendments to assure him of my good will; but my difficulty is they are not necessary. The Irish Militia have all through been in the position I have just described. I gave an administrative undertaking to organise a special contingent, and the men willing to take service abroad and to be drafted will be asked to enlist under Part III. of the Bill. We then say there are some of the men so good, so well trained, that we give them the chance of forming a fourth battalion. To them we say, "Come under Part III.; we shall want you to be drafted; but it only means that you will come under a new set of statutes; you come into a fourth battalion if required.'' That will be done in the case of each man, and for the Militia battalions that are weak it is possible we may have to take two battalions to make up a single third battalion. Some of the battalions we hope may come over en bloc, and we have every desire to suit their territorial conditions and traditions. Where we can, although the men come in individually, they will be formed into a unit as like as possible to the old, but under new engagements. So far as individual men are concerned, we should try to consult their convenience at every point. We have provided the financial means and the machinery we require to create our first line.
MR. McCRAEsaid he wished to congratulate his right hon. friend upon his statement, and on the course he was now going to pursue. It agreed in many points with the views he had humbly pressed upon his notice for months past—the formation of the Volunteers and Yeomanry into a Territorial Army, and pushing what was good of the Militia into the first line. What proportion of the twenty-seven battalions did the right hon. Gentleman propose to allocate to Scotland?
MR. HALDANEsaid there were some very good battalions in Scotland, but he would have to survey the whole of the battalions and judge according to merit.
Mr. McCRAEsaid they were all good in Scotland.
Mr. ASHLEYinquired as to the age of enlistment. Would it be the same as before, seventeen or eighteen years of age?
MR. HALDANEreplied that it would be just the same as heretofore. Seventeen was the minimum age for the Militia, and the reason for that was not that they wished to send out soldiers below the proper age, but that they got a number of men at seventeen whom they would not get at a later age. It paid to get them and train them to a greater extent than those who came on at a more advanced age, and later on they went into the Line. By enlisting at seventeen they secured a stream of recruits whom they had to train more than they trained older men, but who furnished them with material they would not otherwise get. They did not for a moment contemplate sending out these men in either the 3rd or 4th Battalions under the now system at an immature age
MR. ASHLEYasked whether the period of enlistment would be the same as now, six years.
MR. HALDANEwas understood to say the enlistment would be just the same as ever.
MR. COURTENAY WARNERsaid he was very anxious to congratulate the Secretary of State for War personally on the improvement of the scheme by the change, which he thought would be greatly to the advantage and efficiency of the fighting force. He wished, however, to know whether the light hon. Gentleman proposed to enlist all the Militia Force straight off. If so, were they to work out their time under the existing engagement, and were only recruits to come forward under the new terms; because, however faithful and good the Militia might be, there were always a number of men who would not take any new engagement without being paid for it. He did not think the practice of enlisting at seventeen was so serious a matter as hon. Members thought, although he knew that it did tell to a certain extent in Regular regiments, but not so much in the Militia. In a battalion in which he was interested he found that only 10 per cent. of the men were under twenty years of age, and the reason was that many old soldiers enlisted in the Militia, and they did not get quite so many young men in the force as some hon. and right hon. Gentlemen thought. The officers were
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well satisfied with the scheme put forward, though some of them who were seniors would have to go, but the old ones always had to go. He thought, however, that there would be an advantage in adopting the formation proposed, and allowing officers to go and fill up the reserve, as there would be a great many Militia who would be useful in time of war. He was glad they would be used and pushed forward into the Regular Army, in which many of them ought to have been. A question which required consideration was whether the men would have to be re-enlisted and whether they would serve out their time, or whether the re-enlistment would be under new terms of service.
SIR SAMUEL SCOTTasked how the right hon. Gentleman proposed to fill up the Reserve of Officers in order to feed the Regular Army in time of war.
MR. WYNDHAMsaid he did not rise to join in the chorus of congratulation to the Secretary of State, because, having advocated something of the kind for the last seven years, the right hon. Gentleman well knew how deeply grateful he was that he had consented to carry out the change proposed. He presumed that they might still take 300,000 in round numbers as the strength of the Territorial Force. The Auxiliary Forces at present rather exceeded 360,000, and the right hon. Gentleman was taking 58,000 men to form this reserve battalion. That would leave about 300,000 men in round numbers as members of the Territorial Force.
MR. HALDANEsaid they took 300,000 as an estimate for the establishment, because they thought that that would be about what they would get. He did not know, now that they were taking away so many Militiamen, whether they would get that number, but the establishment which they proposed would still remain. He thought that what had happened would make it rather difficult to get the Territorial numbers, at any rate, as quickly as under ordinary circumstances.
MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAINsaid he desired to ask a question on the

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financial aspect of the scheme. He assumed that, as a result of the right hon. Gentleman's announcement that day, the whole of the finance of the Militia would be part of the finance of the Regular Army, and that the accounts of the Militia would be audited and controlled by the Auditor and Comptroller-General as at present, and not in the way proposed for the Territorial Army. He also assumed that, under the new arrangement, there would be a special Vote taken for the Militia, as had been the case hitherto.
MR. HALDANEsaid he did not know about a special Vote for the Militia, because the Militia substance would now be part of the Regular Army, and of course, the procedure with regard to finance would be precisely the same as that of the Regular Army. He did not want to pin himself to the exact form in which it would come before the House, but that was the substance of it, and, of course, the accounts would be audited in the same way as those of the Regular Army. As regarded the finance, at present they spent on the Auxiliary Forces well on to four and a half millions of money. The estimate he took for the Territorial Army was a sum of £2,850,000, and then he added to that certain other items. That estimate was taken on the assumption that they had 300,000 men going into camp for fifteen days. He never believed that they would get anything like the whole of that number to go into camp for fifteen days, though they would keep the units standing, and he doubted whether, now that they had taken the Militia away, they would for some time, at any rate, get the whole 300,000. The margin for the extra cost that these things would entail came not only from the economies of the abolition of the old depots, but from the difference between what they spent on the Territorial Army and the four and a half millions they spent on the Auxiliary Forces. It was obvious that the simplification of organisation avoided multiplication of stock, and they got a certain amount of economy in that way.
SIR CHARLES DILKEsaid it was obvious that, when the new state of things came into force, there would be no Militia Vote; but, supposing the present men would not come over, would they have a
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Militia Vote until the Militia became extinct by time?
MR. HALDANEreplied that his right hon. friend was quite right, and he saw his point. There would necessarily be a certain number of people who would say, "We will not come over, and you must keep us going," and there might be, in that transition period, a small Militia Vote. In reply to the Question of the hon. Baronet the Member for Marylebone, he had to say that somewhere about 4,000 officers would be required on mobilisation. Some, they hoped, would come from the universities and public schools, some from the public schools alone. The rest would come, they hoped, by taking a year in a Regular unit, and they would be very much akin to the class who came to the Regular Army through the Militia at the present time. He had to say, in reply to the hon. Member for Lichfield, that they would enlist at once all they could, but there would be some who would remain Militiamen. They would be worked off, he hoped, very quickly, but, while they were there, they could not disturb any contract.
COLONEL KENYON-SLANEYasked whether the training of the Militia both for the Reserve and the men would be the same as now.
MR. HALDANEwas understood to say that the training in all cases would be six months initial training. It was now six months, with twenty-eight days annual training, but in future it would be six months initial training, with fifteen days annual training and musketry training in addition.
LORD BALCARRESsaid that when the right hon. Gentleman told them that he was going to save the Militia they had some reason to hope that he would retain it at least on its present basis of efficiency. He did not think, however, they could make the force as efficient with fifteen days training as when it had twenty eight days. He now understood how it was that the right hon. Gentleman intended to give this training without the expenditure of further moneys. The matter became the more serious from the fact that the Militia as such was going to disappear, and become part of

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the Regular Army, and be brought under the Army Act and not under the Militia Act. He wished to know, if the new Militia disappeared from the Militia Vote and appeared on Votes A and I of the Army Estimates, would it have the same responsibilities as the remainder of the Regular Forces with which it was to be grouped in future? Would that responsibility for foreign service, so far as the new Militia was concerned, be identical with that of the Regular Army?
MR. HALDANEsaid he was not quite sure whether he appreciated the point of the noble Lord. The Militia would have the same responsibility as the Army Reserve.
MR. ARNOLD-FORSTER: said he did not know if the right hon. Gentleman desired him to withdraw his Amendment. He understood now that there was no use for it. There was nothing more to be said on the point saving one thing. He regretted that owing to the time at which this change had been made, some very important questions which arose consequentially upon the change could not be discussed. He would like to repeat a remark he had made earlier in the afternoon. He had been a student of Militia depots for years, and had visited nearly every Militia depot in England and Scotland, and though the House received the right hon. Gentleman's announcement with great satisfaction, the change was not going to make the Militia all the right hon. Gentleman desired. It could only make for good if it was the beginning and not the end of the changes with regard to the Militia.
SIR HOWARD VINCENTasked whether the Militia was to be taken entirely out of the control of the county associations. He put the same Question at Question time, and then understood the right hon. Gentleman to say there was no truth whatever in the report. But from his subsequent statement it appeared to him that the right hon. Gentleman had taken exactly the course hinted at in the Question he put.
MR. HALDANEsaid there would be certain Militia battalions which would go into the Territorial Army. They would be under the control of the county
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associations. The others would be under the control of the Regular Army.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
VISCOUNT VALENTIAin moving an Amendment to secure the exemption of the Yeomanry from (he operation of Clause 1, said the right hon. Gentleman had expressed considerable sympathy with the Yeomanry Force at an earlier stage of the Bill. But in listening to the speech, and on since perusing it, he failed to find any reason for including that force in the right hon. Gentleman's scheme, except that they were not as efficient as the right hon. Gentleman hoped to make the cavalry. But Yeomanry were as anxious to make themselves efficient as was the right hon. Gentleman to see them efficient, and so far as serving with other forces in the field was concerned, they were not only prepared to do so, but the complaint of the officers was that they had not the opportunity they would like to have of so doing. With regard to the pay, the right hon. Gentleman had said it would be impossible to go on with different rates of pay. But in the Regular Forces there were different rates of pay at the present time. The right hon. Gentleman proposed to leave the Irish regiments of Yeomanry as they were at present, and there was a very strong similarity between the Irish Yeomanry and those of England, and it was very curious that what was sauce for the Irish goose should not be sauce for the English and Scottish gander. The arguments which had been used in regard to the Militia applied equally to the Yeomanry, with one exception, and that was the production of drafts for the Regular services. There, of course, the Yeomanry was differently situated; owing to the different ages at which the men were enlisted it would be impossible for them to supply drafts. But he thought that the right hon. Gentleman might well extend the analogy of reconstitution to the Imperial Yeomanry as well as the Militia. The right hon. Gentleman seemed to think there was considerable value attached by the Auxiliary Forces to their bands and colours. But there was also a sentimental value attached to the conditions under which they served that weighed even more, he thought, with the Yeomanry than

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with the Militia. Therefore, believing it was unwise to sacrifice the force of cavalry we now had in the shape of Yeomanry in order to obtain what must prove to be a less efficient force in the Territorial Army, he begged to move.
Amendment proposed to the Bill—
"In page 1, line 8, after the word ' Regulars ' to insert the words 'and Yeomanry.' "— (Viscount Valentia.)
Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted in the Bill."
MR. WYNDHAMsaid that, if he desired to review the position of the Yeomanry under the Bill, he would be compelled to deal with a number of hypothetical assumptions, because, at the present time, they did not know what its position was. Was it analogous to that of the Militia? The position of the Militia under the Bill could be entirely changed without a word of the Bill being altered, and he assumed that the position of the Yeomanry would be the same. That being so, that seemed to be the opportunity for asking the right hon. Gentleman to temper his power with consideration, to boar in mind what had been so often urged on behalf of the Yeomanry, and not to bind himself in any way. The right hon. Gentleman was asking the Yeomanry to do more, and, at the same time, was telling the officers of the force to ask the men to accept less pay. That was the difficulty. It was obvious to the minds of most people that the admitted efficiency of the Yeomanry during the last ten years was due to the better pay of the force. In recent years they had been enabled, for that reason, to draw many young men, the sons of farmers, and enterprising clerks from the towns, who devoted four or five of the best years of their lives to fitting themselves for service and had made themselves efficient. The right hon. Gentleman must bear in mind that he could not alter these conditions for the men without losing a large proportion of the teachable men—men to whom some knowledge could be imparted in three or four weeks—men who could learn to ride and read a map better than any Regular soldier. He hoped the right hon. Gentleman would tell the House that he was not wedded to his system of pay, but that he would
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preserve an open mind to direct the ample powers he was taking under the Bill. He understood that those of the Yeomanry who were going on active service on the outbreak of war were to pass into the special contingent of fourteen squadrons. Those men were presumably to be taken from the Yeomanry regiments as a body, one regiment furnishing seven and another perhaps twenty-nine, but the average aimed at was about a troop a-piece. He gathered that those men would be taken so largely out of the regiments as almost to cease to belong to them. The House had had nothing distinct upon that point. First, they were told that they came in Class "A," and then in Part III., and then that they would be trained not with the troops to which they belonged. It was too late in the day to argue for and against these various propositions. The right hon. Gentleman had reserved to himself the power to deal with them, and in one way or another to modify his present plan, but he hoped he would keep present in his mind the fact that if they took men away from their officers and comrades altogether they would cease to be part of the units. He would have been very glad if the right hon. Gentleman had seen his way to invite the regiments to supply so many men willing to serve abroad, and then he could say—" We will not take you unless you will do so much training." He believed that if they did that they would have a succession of men taking up the obligation, who would fulfil the tests which the War Office imposed upon them. He confessed they on that side had a predilection for that plan, but he did not press it at that moment. He hoped, however, that the right hon. Gentleman would not dismiss it altogether from his mind, because it was an alternative plan to his proposal which would take the men. altogether out of the Yeomanry. According to the plan of the Secretary of State for War these men were to go into the Reserve, but he understood that even according to that plan there was no question of their supplying drafts generally to the cavalry. There was that distinction between their position and that of the Militia. But if, under the Secretary of State for War's plan, they got this special contingent, then they went to produce the fourteen squadrons of additional cavalry, and they did not go into the Reserve. The

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right hon. Gentleman should not throw away all the chances he had of reaching a class he had not reached before. He hoped he would not imperil his chance of getting these men, or take up an attitude from which he could never recede in respect of the method by which he was going to get men on the outbreak of war.
MR. HALDANEthat said no one could have listened to the two distinguished Yeomanry commanding officers who had just spoken without feeling it to be almost impossible to resist them. But he had happened, within almost the last few-hours, to be in the company of two very distinguished officers of the Regular Army, one a very great cavalry leader and the other with great experience of cavalry, and they were as full of gloom about the Yeomanry as the right hon. Gentleman and the noble Lord were full of confidence. They had said to him that he was mixing himself up so much with Yeomanry officers in the House of Commons that he was being persuaded to make concessions, and that he was bringing into the Regular Army as divisional cavalry Yeomanry which, they thought, had not and could not have that professional instinct which cavalry who were trained men possessed. It was difficult for a very humble man to decide between two such great authorities. But he felt encouraged to repeat that the safest plan was, after all, the plan which he had decided upon— not to yield to the criticism of any distinguished Regular officers on the Yeomanry, because, as the right hon. Gentleman had well said, the Yeomanry came from an extremely enlightened class. On the contrary, it would not do to set out with a theory about the superiority of the training standard of the Regular cavalry and demand a marked differential character in favour of the Yeomanry. They had done a good deal to bridge over the experimental stage. There would be a period in which the right hon. Gentleman might find out that he had been right and himself wrong.
MR. WYNDHAM: Or it may be the other way.
MR. HALDANEsaid it might be the other way, but he clung to the hope that, at all events, the House would feel that
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in this matter he could not be criticised or reproached for want of a certain softness and readiness to yield. But, having gone so far, it would not do to go further, for fear that he should incur the criticism of those distinguished military authorities of whom he had spoken. The noble Lord had said, "Why not extend the kind of treatment the Irish Yeomanry are receiving to the Yeomanry hero?" He thought the noble Lord did not appreciate the position of the Irish Yeomanry. He had said that the Irish Yeomanry would go over, like the Irish Militia, to the divisional work. The regiments of Irish Yeomanry were to be asked to go over to the divisional cavalry, which on mobilisation would be attached to the Regular Army. The reason for that was that there was no Territorial Army in Ireland and there was no place open for them. Ireland had taken a prominent part in raising good Yeomanry regiments, and they hoped that Ireland would raise, in substance, two Yeomanry regiments for divisional cavalry. It was quite true that there was a great difference between the Yeomanry and the Militia. The special squadrons, although they came under Part III., were earmarked for divisional cavalry. That was the view of the General Staff. He did not think anybody would be content with the suggestion of the right hon. Gentleman, who came in contact as much as he did with the views of commanding officers of the Regular Force, upon this subject of the divisional cavalry. The right hon. Gentleman had suggested that they should come under Clause 12 of the Bill, without any training which differentiated them from the Yeomanry; that they should be raised as part of the Yeomanry regiments, and go forward and be earmarked by their own consent for the Regular division.
MR. WYNDHAMsaid it was only a matter of method. He thought they would get more men if they adopted that method—if they allowed men to offer to undertake foreign obligations, and then told them that they could not be allowed to do that work unless they trained for so many months at a special school. They would get more men, and they would do less by that method to destroy the esprit de corps of the regiment than by allowing a man to be nominally attached to a Yeomanry regiment, but

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drilling him for six months apart from his regiment.
MR. HALDANEsaid that that was one of the points that were open to reconsideration—how much a man should be allowed to go back. He hoped the House would understand that he was not pinning himself to rigid methods in carrying out his plan. They might gain a great deal by experience. He had had it put to him with the greatest force by some of the most distinguished men commanding these divisions that the men who came into the divisional cavalry must have professional instinct. They said that if the men were left without the support of the Regulars the divisional cavalry could never be relied upon to do the kind of work that was wanted. They must be the ears and eyes of the division, the screen cavalry. They would be required to perform all sorts of services as divisional cavalry, which could not be foreseen, and which required professional instinct. There had been more criticism upon that part of the new organisation than upon any other. It was said that for the very part of the cavalry which required all good men they were making the least preparation; that they ought to have put the Yeomanry into the screen cavalry in the place of the two brigades of mounted infantry; that they ought to have kept the Regular trained mounted infantry for the divisional force. Those were problems which only experience could solve. The Government did not want to tie themselves upon that point. He had the least expert experience of any man in the House, but he had tried to weigh the arguments without prejudice, and, on the whole, he thought the line which he had marked out best met the criticisms and difficulties which had been put to him. The sum and substance of it was that, if they took the Yeomanry out of the Territorial Force, they could only do it, lock, stock, and barrel, in the way the Militia were going. He would be well content to take these fourteen squadrons if he could get them, but that would be to ask the whole force to undertake training which their antecedents and their social condition would not allow them to do. It would be much better to keep them as they were, and do the best they could with them.
SIR CHARLES DILKEsaid that our military authorities had been accused of heresy on this question, and the Continental Powers had decided on the opposite plan. In the case of Austria and Germany tradition might have been supposed to govern their ideas, and that the change would have met with resistance. Italy, which was a very poor country, could not do all that she would like to do; and in the case of France they were driven to contemplate the reduction of the cavalry on financial grounds alone. Although for these financial reasons the decision to retain the full numbers of regular cavalry was unwillingly arrived at, it was forced upon those Powers by necessity. They wanted a little more knowledge on this question. They did not know where the right hon. Gentleman was taking them. As he understood, the right hon. Gentleman did not know himself. He did not blame the right hon. Gentleman, for it was an experimental process no doubt, and he was right to make experiments. The connection between this new short-training divisional cavalry and the existing Yeomanry seemed to be very thin, and it was hardly worth while to pretend that these troops were Yeomanry in any sense at all, and he would have thought that it would be much better to treat them separately from the Yeomanry organisation. Either that scheme or the one suggested by the right hon. Member for Dover would attract him more, but after all it was purely experimental. He would have thought that the existing Yeomanry organisation with the best Yeomanry officers would have formed an organisation to get the recruits for the new body. It would be better to tell the House plainly that that body had no real connection with the existing Yeomanry. The right hon. Gentleman had not yet told them how and where these men were going to be trained. They assumed that they would be trained at Aldershot. If the right hon. Gentleman would give them more information as to what was in his mind with regard to this experiment, he would considerably relieve the minds of hon. Members.
MR. HALDANEsaid he quite appreciated the view which the right hon. Baronet had taken. As regarded the.

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training, they hoped to make it local, and the only reason why he had not enlarged upon that question was that the whole cavalry organisation was under consideration at the present time. As to the policy of general organisation, he was not in a position to say yet where the schools and training squadrons would be.
VISCOUNT TURNOURregretted that the right hon. Gentleman had mentioned the opinion of two anonymous cavalry leaders in regard to the Imperial Yeomanry, because he was afraid the House might conclude that military opinion was unfavourable to the Imperial Yeomanry, whereas the contrary was the fact. He would like to know if the two cavalry leaders referred to had had any opportunity of coming into close contact with the Imperial Yeomanry, not in South Africa but since the war. Obviously, if they had not, their opinion was valueless. He regretted to notice a vein of disparagement of the Yeomanry running through the Secretary of State's speeches. If instead of referring to those distinguished cavalry leaders, the right hon. Gentleman had given the House some indication of the sort of views expressed in the reports of the inspecting officers of the Imperial Yeomanry, hon. Members would have gathered a very different impression. As one who had recently come from a training of the Imperial Yeomanry he assured the right hon. Gentleman that his proposals were having an extraordinary effect upon that force, because recruits were falling off and they were frightened at what was being proposed in this Bill.
MR. HALDANE: The last returns for April show an increase of some hundreds more Yeomanry than the previous returns.
VISCOUNT TURNOURsaid that that was probably due to the fact that the country had not yet realised the full extent of these proposals. He would like to see the returns in regard to those Yeomanry who had re-engaged at the end of the training. He was very much surprised to hear that the April returns were larger. He did not think that even the right hon. Gentleman would deny that in the Yeomanry generally the gravest apprehension was felt as to the effect of the proposals contained in the Bill. He protested against the quotation by the
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right hon. Gentleman of the opinion of anonymous cavalry leaders.
SIR HOWARD VINCENT: Who are they?
VISCOUNT TURNOUR,in conclusion, said the House ought to have an opportunity of knowing what the real military opinion was in regard to the value of the Imperial Yeomanry.
MAJOR SEELYsaid he did not agree that the right hon. Gentleman in his speeches had shown a contempt for the Yeomanry; on the contrary, he had given them well-merited praise. He deprecated any statement that the Yeomanry as a whole were going to refuse to join on account of this Bill. He had repeatedly stated that he thought it was a mistake to reduce the pay unless it could be made up in some other way. He thought it was very wrong to make things look worse than they were by trying to make out that the Yeomanry would not accept the new conditions; it was their duty to carry out whatever the House ultimately decided.
VISCOUNT TURNOURsaid he did not say that the Yeomanry as a whole would refuse to serve. What he said was that their opinion was distinctly unfavourable to the right hon. Gentleman's proposals.
MAJOR SEELYsaid he did not wish to join in the controversy as to the value of the makeshift troops which his right hon. friend proposed to create. After all, history showed that a long period of peace was a period of accumulated errors in military affairs, and when war broke out the bullets swept the errors away. All their military training was like playing football without a football, because they did not have the thing which was of real importance, namely, the element of fear. Consequently all lessons learned by peace training were liable to gigantic errors, but one supreme lesson they had learnt was that cohesion and confidence in soldiers were more important than the precise number of days training. If, for instance, the right hon. Member for Dover could bring his own squadron complete to the theatre of war, owing to their cohesion and confidence in him they would be of considerably more

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value than the same number of highly-trained cavalry who had never seen their leader before. The cavalrymen with their higher standard of training and skill would of course be immeasurably superior. Many of them were better horse masters, because they had been at it since their boyhood. It would not be wise to ignore the spirit of cohesion and confidence in the leader. The proposal to take a small number from each regiment and group them under officers they had not seen was not likely to produce the best results. He did not agree with the suggestion that the Yeomanry should be taken bodily from the Territorial Force and attached to the Regular Army. He trusted his right hon. friend would bear in mind the importance of maintaining cohesion and confidence in their leader in any troops he proposed to send to war, because that was of infinitely more value than anything else.
MR. ARNOLD-FORSTERsaid the hon. and gallant Gentleman had said something which to him was of considerable interest, although he did not agree with his historical recollection. The most successful and the briefest war in modern history was that which took place in 1866, and that was conducted by officers and men of whom not one in a thousand had ever seen war. They were asked to violate the very principles which the hon. and gallant Member for Abercromby had laid down. He understood that little squads of men would be taken from each county, and those men would never act with the squadron in which they were going to fight, still less with the regiment. That seemed to him a very bad preparation— that the men should be organised in such a way that they would never meet as a consolidated unit until they met on the battle field. He wished the right hon. Gentleman would tell them whether he considered he was making the wisest use of the Yeomanry cavalry, which a short time ago became practically mounted infantry, and as such, he believed, were competent to render the greatest possible service. When war broke out the whole of the divisional cavalry of the British Army would now be composed of practically untrained men. That was a very serious matter. Cavalry on the Continent was trained to act by shock tactics against cavalry, but was it probable that
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cavalry with six months training, who had never acted in masses at all, could be subjected with safety to such an ordeal as that? And the horses were trained, as well as the men, for those shock tactics in the Continental armies. They would not get anything in the least like Continental cavalry in the Yeomanry. cavalry, even if they got the regiments together and manœuvred them for some months. Would it not be possible even now for the right hon. Gentleman to modify the use he was going to make of the Yeomanry? He believed with his right hon. friend that the Yeomanry would do their very best to give value to the country, whatever conditions might be imposed, but that, he thought, placed the War Office under the corresponding obligation of making a fit use of them.He hoped the Yeomanry would, at any rate, be given a chance of acting as Mounted Infantry and Scouts, and would not be used as divisional cavalry of the British Army, a position which no troops with their training and qualities could be expected to fill.
COLONEL KENYON-SLANEYasked whether the fourteen squadrons of Yeomanry were to be officered by Yeomanry or Regular officers. It was obvious that if they took these men out of their Yeomanry regiments, and sent them away from the Territorial officership, they would strike at the Territorial character of the force. He was interested in what was said by the hon. Member for the Abercromby Division. The hon. and gallant Gentleman was in his usual difficulty: he wished to have an efficient Army, and to get it economically; therefore he had as usual to sacrifice efficiency for economy. He would like to know from the Minister for War whether the men subtracted from the Yeomanry in the way described were to be treated as regular cavalry, or whether they would continue to be counted as mounted infantry. Were they to be trained in an entirely different way from the parent Yeomanry regiment?
SIR SAMUEL SCOTTsaid the right hon. Gentleman had stated that the Yeomanry regiments were all to be on the same basis in regard to training as the Irish Militia. The Irish Militia were to have six months Militia training. Were

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the Irish Yeomanry recruits to have six months preliminary training or not?
MR. HALDANEsaid that was so, otherwise they would not be able to go with the Regulars and form part of the divisional cavalry. All the men who went into the special squadrons would receive six months training. With regard to the cavalry, he thought a great deal of confusion had been imported into the discussion by the use of the words divisional cavalry. He quite agreed that men trained in the fashion proposed would not be able to cope with Continental cavalry. Screen cavalry were part cavalry, part mounted infantry, and the functions of what they called divisional cavalry were in many respects much nearer those of mounted infantry than those of cavalry; Hon. Members knew that nowadays the line of demarcation between cavalry and mounted infantry was not a sharp line. Continental cavalry were organised for shock operations, ours were not. We gave the Lancer the lance still, but the cavalry were trained for work of a different kind. Our operations would render it extremely difficult for cavalry to come into shock at all. In their capacity as cavalry, however, they were muck more highly trained than mounted infantry. Possibly the divisional cavalry would be adequately described as mounted infantry, but divisional cavalry was the title which had been given to them. The mounted troops who went with the divisions under the name of divisional cavalry would be trained. As to the officers, of course the grade of officer could not be very high, they must be junior officers.
COLONEL KENYON-SLANEYasked whether the officers would be Yeomanry or Regular officers.
MR. HALDANEsaid they would be Yeomanry officers who had gone into the Reserve, and for a troop the officer very likely would not be above the rank of a lieutenant. The higher organisation would naturally look to Regular officers, or officers of a higher grade who were in the Reserve. Very likely they would be Regular officers.
THE MARQUESS OF HAMILTON (Londonderry)said that if the six months training were adhered to, two North of
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Ireland Yeomanry regiments would be wiped out of existence. He was an officer in an Irish Yeomanry regiment in which practically all the men were farmers' sons. They worked on the farms, and now that a large number of the tenants had purchased their holdings under the Land Act, they would be more needed on the farms than ever. How could they spare six months at seed time and harvest in order to go and train for the Yeomanry?
MR. HALDANEsaid they must consider the circumstances and how they could deal with the Irish Yeomanry in order to bring thorn into a divisional organisation. It would be necessary to give them a higher training than they got now. However, he would consider the matter and see whether anything could be done in the direction suggested by the hon. Member.
MR. ASHLEYsaid he was glad to hear that the right hon. Gentleman would consider the position of the Irish Yeomanry, as the hon. Member for; Londonderry had shown that the proposals in the Bill as to the future of the corps was destructive. He had not risen to speak for the Yeomanry, but he wished to ask the right hon. Gentleman whether the extra squadron of Yeomanry were to be asked to come out for six months preliminary training, as well as fifteen days annual training. If so, it would be much harder on these men than on the men in the existing squadrons, who received 5s. 6d. pay per day. The right hon. Gentleman had said that in the future the Yeomanry were to receive 1s. 2d. a day pay, Is. a day allowance for messing and comforts to be paid through the commanding officer, and an Army ration valued at 6d. a day. That was to say, the Yeoman in the future was going to get 2s. 8d. a day—which made him worse by 2s. 10d. than the Yeoman at the present time. Under those conditions he could not see how the right hon. Gentleman would get the same number or class of men in the future as in the past or at present. Could the right hon. Gentleman give the House some information of an incident which he saw recorded in The Times with reference to the Hampshire Yeomanry? The impression left on his mind was that the Hampshire Yeomanry, through their

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commanding officer, respectfully informed the right hon. Gentleman that if their pay was to be reduced at the end of their present engagement, they could not see their way to re-engage; and it was stated that the right hon. Gentleman wrote back that the Yeomanry would be able to continue under the conditions of present engagement. Was that exactly what had occurred?
MR. HALDANEsaid he had received a telegram from the commanding officer of the Hampshire Yeomanry asking him what the terms of engagement of recruits would be, and he replied that the commanding officer might enlist new men up to the time the Bill became operative and that the men till then would remain under the present conditions. Of course it followed that the men already under engagement would go on to the end of their term of service under the existing conditions. Following on that the War Office sent out a letter to commanding officers stating the position quite fully. The words of the telegram should be read with the words of the letter.
VISCOUNT VALENTIAsaid that he understood that the right hon. Gentleman had stated that it would be much better if the Yeomanry were left as they were.
MR. HALDANE: I did not say that.
VISCOUNT VALENTIAwas understood to say that he believed the Yeomanry would have no objection to be under the county associations. However, the statement of the right hon. Gentleman had rather modified his point of view, and he begged leave to withdraw his Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
SIR HOWARD VINCENT: said he wished to move an Amendment to exclude the Volunteers from the operation of the Bill, in order to give the right hon. Gentleman an opportunity of stating what good the Bill would do to that force. The Militia were taken out of the Bill, and the right hon. Gentleman had just made a statement that the Yeomanry would continue to serve under present conditions until the Bill became operative—
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which might be a hundred years hence. He had read the Bill; he had listened to every word which the right hon. Gentleman had said in the course of the debates, and also all the letters which the right hon. Gentleman had written, but he entirely failed to see what advantages the Volunteers were to gain. It was perfectly true that they were going to establish four divisions under old generals. The right hon. Gentleman said that he had conferred with those divisional generals, but he could have formed those brigades without a Bill, as had already been done in the provinces, although London had been left out of account. He could not see what use the county associations would be. The Volunteers were not represented in the House in the same strength as the Yeomanry and the Militia; the hon. and gallant Member for East Edinburgh and himself alone were able to stand up for the Volunteer force. If the right hon. Gentleman would kindly explain what advantages the Volunteers and the country would derive from this voluminous and cumbrous Bill he would withdraw his Amendment.
Amendment proposed to the Bill,
"In page 1, line 8, after the word 'Regulars,' to insert the words and Volunteers. "—(Sir Howard Vincen.)
Question proposed, That those words be there inserted in the Bill.
MR. HALDANEsaid he could not admit that the hon. and gallant Member now represented in the same sense as before the Volunteer force, of which he formerly was such a brilliant ornament. Since his retirement a great change had come over the spirit of the Volunteers. They wished no longer to be regarded or used as an ornamental force, as those knew who were in very close relationship with them. Even within the last few hours he had received a telegram from Sheffield as to the way in which the strength of one of the chief infantry battalions in that city had grown up under the enthusiasm which had been inspired by the hope of their becoming real soldiers. If the hon. and gallant Gentleman went to Sheffield he would find out how mistaken was the view he had taken, He now appealed to the

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House to come to the question of the county associations so that it might receive adequate discussion.
SIR HOWARD VINCENTasked leave to withdraw his Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
VISCOUNT MORPETHmoved an Amendment to give more representation to the local authorities on the county associations, because he considered that the county associations as constituted under the Bill were not likely to be successful. He was very sceptical as to the value of the associations at all from a military point of view. The Secretary of State for War had said that he followed up the idea of county associations from a former practical experiment made in this country; but that experiment had been a failure. In military affairs central control was essential. It was the invariable case when an extension of local government was granted by Parliament that what was given legislatively was taken away administratively by the Central Departments of Government. But when it came to a question of Army management the main question was whether the authorities at Whitehall should not be kept in very close contact with administration. He believed that if the associations were to be merely the nominees of the War Office they would consist of a number of excellent persons who would supply valuable information to that Department, but they would after all be simply its instruments. It might be said that the War Office was not a very good selector of persons in the county to form those associations, and it would be very difficult for that Department to make a choice. The right hon. Gentleman had struck out the Lord-Lieutenant as the official head of the association, but no doubt the Minister of War would put himself in communication with the county council and other persons of light and leading in the county. That course, however, was also open to very grave objection. Supposing there was an association nominated in this manner by the War Office, how were the vacancies in that association to be filled up? Probably what would happen was that a member of the association would write to the right hon. Gentleman
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and say that so-and-so was a very desirable candidate. That led them to the principle of pure co-optation, and although it had certain merits, if it was the sole method of appointment it would inevitably lead to the affairs of the associations falling into the hands of a clique. He had no confidence that these associations would be successful, but he did not feel sufficiently strongly on the matter to say that the experiment should not be made. The state of the Territorial and Auxiliary Forces of the Army was not so flourishing that they could refuse to make any experiment, but if the county association was to have any weight it must be a local body and not merely the creature of the War Office or a co-opted body. If they were to carry Army matters into local affairs they must go to the living centres of local government, and go to the city councils and county councils and ask them to combine and take their share of the work. He quite agreed that the War Office should put on the commanding officers of the county, and that they should be in a majority; but he still thought that the other members should not be nominated by the War Office or by the Army Council.
MR. ASHLEY: seconded the Amendment, though not for the reasons urged by the mover. He was in favour of the county associations, as they could do no harm and might do good, and anything that would stimulate interest ought to be supported. He saw no reason why local magnates representing the different interests in the country should not form a considerable adjunct to the work of the Bill in the creation of the Territorial Army. He supported the Amendment on that ground, because it was not at all certain whether they were going to have in these associations representatives of the county and borough councils at all. Under Sub-section (d) the right hon. Gentleman could nominate not less than half of the associations in the persons of the commanding officers, who would form a majority; therefore it should be left to the local bodies to select the minority.
Amendment proposed to the Bill—
"In page 2, line 9, to leave out all the words from the word 'appointment' to the first word 'of in line 11."— (Viscount Morpeth.)
Question proposed, "That the words ' by the Army Council ' stand part of the Bill."
MR. HALDANEsaid the reason for the present form of the clause could hardly be appreciated without some knowledge of the history of the question. When the Bill was first being considered his idea was that they could use the county councils very much in the way that had been suggested by the mover and seconder of the Amendment; in other words, that the county association might be taken to be a body which was in part at all events directly representative of the local bodies. He found a storm of disapproval of that among the Volunteer forces, who refused to be put under the county councils. They seized hold of a phrase of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Croydon that they were going to be made into a county council army, and objected. The unfortunate person who had to deal with Army affairs had to take into account public sentiment, and he had to consider his position. He thought that the Volunteers, with the exception of his noble friend, approved of the way which he had now chosen, viz., that the association should be incorporated with and form part of the administrative portion of the Army authorities, that it should be there as representing the Army authorities, and that its function should be to look after the administrative side of the soldier in the Home Army. They therefore got to the point that the association should be appointed by the Army Council with a considerable amount of elasticity to meet the requirements of the particular locality. It was proposed that not less than half of the body should be composed of commanding officers, and it was necessary that some latitude should be given to bring in people whose local knowledge was likely to help. There was the residue of the association to be dealt with, and for the sake of introducing elasticity it was proposed to insert the words now objected to which would enable the Army Council to introduce representatives of county and borough councils. He hoped the members of these bodies would take a large and honourable part in the work of the associations, but they had thought it right to give a free hand to the Army Council in the matter.
SIR H. AUBREY-FLETCHERwas glad that county councils were not to be the bodies who were to have the superintendence of the Territorial Army. He had served ever since the formation of the present Volunteer Force, and in one sense was one of the founders of it. The lords- lieutenant of the counties, the county gentlemen, and in the cities the lord mayor and lord provost were the main factors in starting the force. They had heard that it went back to the days of Cromwell, but without going back so far he might mention that he had found in a family chest a document in relation to the Volunteer Forces dated 1803, which showed that something similar was in the mind of the Government of that day. It related to the county of Glamorgan and said—
"At a general meeting of the Lieutenancy, holden at Pyle Inn, on Thursday, the 18th day of August, 1803, the Lord-Lieutenant in the Car. It is recommended that each hundred do raise their own quota to exonerate the county from the compulsory clauses of the Defence Act, that subscriptions be raised in the separate hundreds for this purpose, and that the inspectors of hundreds be requested to use their best endeavours to forward this plan and to receive and distribute the subscriptions in their respective hundreds."
There was another matter that might be interesting—
"That it be recommended to each inspector to clothe the Volunteers in their districts with a red jacket turned up with lemon colour, grey pantaloons, round hat with a worsted feather; sharpshooters to be clothed in green if Government will allow it. That each inspector shall appropriate the subscriptions to be received by them, in first instance, towards clothing the men, should it be found sufficient for that purpose, not exceeding ten shillings for each man, and the surplus, if any, should remain towards the pay of the men on each Sunday, or other day, at the rate of one shilling per man, when not paid by Government."
The resolutions were adopted. He thought everyone know that the Volunteer Force of that day did not last for long. When they came down to 1859 the force was raised by the lords-lieutenant, the lord provosts, and lord mayors of the day, and it existed under their superintendence for something like two years, during which he had the honour to command a battalion. He was very happy when the day arrived that they were taken away from the care of the lord-lieutenant

213
and placed under the immediate superintendence of the War Office. He could not say that the War Office did very much for them for many years of their existence, but they did something by providing them with rifles. They found their own uniforms, made their own ranges, and paid their own sergeant-instructors. An adjutant was allotted to them who was usually a retired officer of the Army, not up-to-date, and generally a very useless man. When they got under the War Office they had an adjutant of different calibre and one more satisfactory to the Volunteer Force. The right hon. Gentleman made one remark the other day on which he was tempted to rise and offer his opinion. It might have been a joke. He hoped it was. The right hon. Gentleman said that the Volunteer Force of 1859 was never intended to be a reality. The House might take it from him, and there were many Members who could corroborate him, that the Volunteers of 1859 did intend to be a reality and not a sham. In the second year of their existence they raised 20,000 Volunteers and marched them into Hyde Park, and, what was more, marched them out again. They were told in the old days by the Duke of Wellington that they would never be able to get 20,000 Volunteers into Hyde Park and if they did they would never get them out again. They did both. As to the county associations he was not altogether in favour of them. He thought they would drift in a very short time under the jurisdiction of the county councils. County gentlemen now had their hands full, and most of them were on the county councils. He feared that the county councils might, at no great distance of time, be the presiding bodies under which the Territorial Army would be placed. He hoped that would not be the case, but it might be, and if it was it would be a bad day for the force.
SIR GILBERT PARKERsaid that if what his hon. friend had just said was true, he could only see failure in this portion of the Bill, but he hoped his hon. friend was mistaken and that the county gentlemen would assist the right hon. Gentleman in carrying out the objects of the Bill. He thought they must approach the question from a different standpoint from that from which
214
it was approached a few days ago. The statement of the right hon. Gentleman had altered the whole position. He thought that if they had the county associations at all they should be for the Militia, but that was now out of the question as the Militia was to go into the third and fourth battalions. Only the remnants of the Militia were to go to the Territorial Army, which would now rest upon the Yeomanry and the Volunteers, and the county associations would now interest themselves in the organisation of those forces. There should, in his opinion, be no rigidity in the matter, for the reason that in a good many counties there would be real difficulty if it was absolutely necessary to work with representatives of the county associations who on their side had adopted what they considered to be certain limits of rigidity of the scheme. He thought a certain amount of elasticity was necessary and that without it the county associations would not be established at all in certain counties. He therefore could not support his noble friend behind him, but would support the right hon. Gentleman, and he trusted his noble friend would not press his Amendment. He was not quite clear how far the right hon. Gentleman was going to invite these county gentlemen to join the associations. Half would be officers commanding and there would be representatives of the county councils. Did he understand that the other representatives would be county gentlemen—because the important part of the scheme was that the right hon. Gentlemen should be able to induce them to interest themselves in the matter; otherwise the scheme would not succeed.
SIR CHARLES DILKEsaid that to his mind the county associations had been the main objection to the Bill, but he thought it was certain that the Bill would now pass through both Houses of Parliament with some organisation of this description embodied in it. Therefore he thought the one point which they might usefully elucidate was the applicability of the county association system to all parts of the two kingdoms. There were some parts of the country where a very strong county feeling existed. There were other parts of the country where a strong national or Imperial feeling dominated the county feeling. He did not know how far the right hon. Gentleman

215
thought the county feeling such as prevailed in the best Volunteer and Yeomanry counties at the present moment could be created in counties where it had not hitherto had existence. The right hon. Gentleman might reassure some of them who knew the strong view there was among active Volunteers by working more and more in the direction of county committees of commanding officers throughout the counties which had a county feeling and of large groupings of counties, in such cases as Wales and Scotland, where that county feeling did not exist.
SIR HOWARD VINCENTsaid he was not sure that the right hon. Baronet was quite right in saying that the Bill was certain to pass. He himself was not so certain. He thought the right hon. Gentleman had done him (Sir Howard Vincent) a great injustice. If there was one part of the Bill to which he was favourable it was that dealing with the county associations. He thought those associations were likely to stir up county interest in favour of the Territorial Force. The noble Lord the Member for South Birmingham opposed the proposal of the Government in defence of local government and resented the interference of the Army Council in these local matters. It was perfectly true that the majority of the commanding officers resented the interference of the county associations in military matters, and he was quite sure that the feeling had been well expressed by the right hon. Gentleman on the Front Opposition Bench, whose services to the Volunteer Force had extended over nearly half a century. A great improvement set in when the military direction was taken over by the War Office, and they were entirely in favour of the military authorities having military control over the Volunteer Force. But that was not the object of the county associations. Their object was to promote financial and local feeling in favour of the Territorial Force and to see that there was a proper provision of headquarters, ranges, and other things appertaining to efficiency. To do that the county association must be a real local organisation. He quite agreed that the commanding officers should have
216
a considerable voice in the associations, and it was provided that 50 per cent. of the members should be representative of the commanding officers of the different regiments; as regarded the other members he thought it must be left to local opinion. But here the proposition was that the Army Council was not only to select the members, but provide the chairman and the secretary, conduct the business, control their finance, and in fact keep a light bearing rein on them all the time. If the right hon. Gentleman thought he was going to invoke local feeling by the aid of county associations under rules of that kind he was very greatly mistaken. The view put forward so well by the noble Lord the Member for South Birmingham and the hon. Member for Blackpool thoroughly represented the feeling in the matter. It was essential that the county associations and the prominent people of every locality should take an interest in the matter, and he did not think that object would be attained by the clause. One would think that the Army Council had enough upon their hands without taking up these matters of local administration, and if the noble Lord went to a division he would certainly vote for the Amendment, which was in accordance with good sense.
Mr. McCRAEsaid he could not agree with the hon. Gentleman opposite, and he was afraid that the reason why the hon. and gallant Member held that view, was that he was now a retired Volunteer somewhat out of touch with current opinion. He could state from his own knowledge that commanding officers rather resented being placed under county associations. He could not support the Amendment. He thought that the Army Council should have a good deal of discretion in the matter. He had not hesitated to say that he was against county associations as proposed to be established under the Bill; but now the power was to be given to the Army Council, and that, he thought, was a great step in advance. He for one did not fear the Army Council in the matter, and he would rather support that body having pretty large powers as to what duties it might delegate to the county associations, because it was to the Army

217
Council they must look for the administration of the Territorial Army.
SIR HOWARD VINCENT: Without a representative upon it?
VISCOUNT MORPETHsaid he wished to explain why he must go a division on the Question.
MR. SPEAKER: The noble Lord has no right of reply.
VISCOUNT MORPETH: I understood that under the new rule there was a right of reply.
MR. SPEAKER: The noble Lord ought to know better than I do that this Bill has not been to Grand Committee.
Question put.
The House divided—Ayes, 265; Noes, 99. (Division List No. 235.)

AYES.

Abraham, William (Rhondda)

Crosfield, A. H.

Hope,W. Bateman(Somerset.N

Acland, Francis Dyke

Dalmeny, Lord

Horniman, Emslie John

Ainsworth, John Stirling

Dalziel, James Henry

Horridge, Thomas Gardner

Alden, Percy

Davies, Ellis William (Eifion)

Howard, Hon. Geoffrey

Allen, A. Acland (Christchurch)

Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardigan

Hyde, Clarendon

Armstrong, W. C. Heaton

Davies, Timothy (Fulham)

Idris, T. H. W.

Ashton, Thomas Gair

Dickinson, W.H. (St.Pancras, N

Isaacs, Rufus Daniel

Asquith,Rt.Hon.HerbertHenry

Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.

Jackson, R. S.

Atherley-Jones, L.

Duncan, C.(Barrow-in-Furness

Jenkins, J.

Balfour, Robert (Lanark)

Dunn, A. Edward (Camborne)

Johnson, John (Gateshead)

Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight)

Dunne,Major E.Martin(Walsall

Johnson, W. (Nuneaton)

Barker, John

Edwards, Clement (Denbigh)

Jones,Sir D.Brynmor(Swansea)

Barlow, John Emmot(Somerset

Edwards, Frank (Radnor)

Jones, Leif (Appleby)

Barlow, Percy (Bedford)

Elibank, Master of

Jones,William (Carnarvonshire

Barran, Rowland Hirst

Ellis, Rt. Hon. John Edward

Kearley, Hudson E.

Barry, Redmond J (Tyrone, N.)

Erskine, David C.

Kincaid-Smith, Captain

Beale, W. P.

Esslemont, George Birnie

King, Alfred John (Knutsford)

Beauchamp, E.

Evans, Samuel T.

Kitson, Rt. Hon. Sir James

Bell, Richard

Everett, R. Lacey

Laidlaw, Robert

Benn,W.(T'w'r Hamlets.S Geo.

Faber, G. H. (Boston)

Lamb, Edmund G. (Leominster

Bennett, E. N.

Fenwick, Charles

Lamb, Ernest H. (Rochester)

Berridge, T. H. D.

Ferens, T. R.

Lambert, George

Bethell.Sir J.H.(Essex,Romfrd

Fiennes, Hon. Eustace

Lamont, Norman

Bethell, T. R. (Essex, Maldon)

Foster, Rt. Hon. Sir Walter

Lay land-Barratt, Francis

Billson, Alfred

Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

Lea,Hugh Cecil(St.Pancras, E.)

Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine

Freeman-Thomas, Freeman

Leese,Sir JosephF(Accrington)

Black, Arthur W.

Fuller, John Michael F.

Lehmann, R. C.

Bowerman, C. W.

Fullerton, Hugh

Lever,A. Levy(Essex, Harwich

Brace, William

Gardner, Col. Alan (Hereford,S.

Lever,W. H. (Cheshire,Wirral)

Branch, James

Gladstone,Rt.Hn. HerberJohn

Levy, Maurice

Brodie, H. C.

Glover, Thomas

Lewis, John Herbert

Brunner, J. F. L. (Lancs.,Leigh)

Goddard, Daniel Ford

Lloyd-George, Rt. Hon. David

Bryce, J. Annan

Grant, Corrie

Lough, Thomas

Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn

Greenwood, G. (Peterborough)

Luttrell, Hugh Fownes

Buckmaster, Stanley O.

Greenwood, Hamar (York)

Lyell, Charles Henry

Burns, Rt. Hon. John

Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward

Macdonald,J.M.(Falkirk B'ghs

Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas

Griffith, Ellis J.

Mackarness, Frederic C.

Buxton, Rt. Hn.SydneyCharles

Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

Macnamara, Dr. Thomas..

Byles, William Pollard

Haldane, Rt. Hon. Richard B.

M'Callum, John M.

Cameron, Robert

Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Lewis

M'Crae, George

Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.

Harmsworth, Cecil B. (Wore'r)

M'Kenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald

Carr-Gomm, H. W.

Hart-Davies, T.

M'Laren, H. D. (Stafford, W.)

Causton,Rt. HnRichardKnight

Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale)

Maddison, Frederick

Channing, Sir Francis Allston

Haworth, Arthur A.

Mallet, Charles E.

Cheetham, John Frederick

Hazel, Dr. A. E.

Manfield, Harry (Northants)

Cherry, Rt. Hon. R R.

Hemmerde, Edward George

Marks,G. Croydon(Launceston,

Cleland, J. W.

Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

Marnham, F. J.

Clough, William

Henderson,J.M.(Aberdeen, W.)

Masterman, C. F. G.

Coats,Sir T.Glen(Renfrew,W.)

Henry, Charles S.

Menzies, Walter

Collins, Stephen (Lambeth)

Herbert, Colonel Ivor(Mon.,S.)

Micklem, Nathamel

Collins,Sir Wm.J(StPancras,W

Higham, John Sharp

Money, L. G. Chiozza.

Corbett.C.H (Sussex, E.Grinst'd

Hobart, Sir Robert

Montagu, E. S.

Cotton, Sir H. J. S.

Hobhouse, Charles E. H.

Morgan, G. Hay (Cornwall)

Cremer, William Randal

Hodge, John

Morgan.J. Lloyd(Carmarthen)

Crombie, John William

Holland, Sir William Henry

Morley, Rt. Hon. John

Morton, Alpheus Cleophas

Runciman, Walter

Tomkinson, James

Murray, James

Russell, T. W.

Torrance, Sir A. M.,

Myer, Horatio

Rutherford, V. H. (Brentford)

Toulmin, George

Newnes, F.(Notts, Bassetlaw)

Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)

Trevelyan, (Charles Philips

Nicholls, George

Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel)

Ure, Alexander

Nicholson,Charles N.(Doncast'r

Sehwann, SirC.E.(Manchester)

Walker, H. De R. (Leicester)

Norton, Capt. Cecil William

Scott,A. H(Ashton under Lyne

Walton, Sir John L. (Leeds, S.)

Nuttall,Harry

Sears, J. E.

Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

Parker,Sir Gilbert(Gravesend)

Seaverns, J. H.

Ward, John (Stoke upon Trent)

Partington, Oswald

Seely, Major J. B.

Ward,W.Dudley(Southampton)

Paulton, James Mellor

Shaw, Rt. Hon. T. (Hawick B.,

Wardle, George J.

Pearce, William (Limehouse)

Sherwell, Arthur James

Waring. Walter

Philipps,J. Wynford(Pembroke

Shipman, Dr. John G.

Warner. Thomas Courtenay T.

Philipps, Owen C. (Pembroke)

Sinclair, Rt. Hon. John

Wason, Eugene(Clackmannan)

Pickersgill, Edward Hare

Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie

Wason,John Catheart(Orkney)

Pirie, Duncan V.

Soares, Ernest J.

Waterlow, D. S.

Pollard, Dr.

Spicer, Sir Albert

Watt, Henry A.

Price, C. E. (Edinb'gh.Central)

Stanger, H. Y.

Weir, James Galloway

Price,Robert John(Norfolk, E.)

Stanley,Hn. A. Lyulph(Chesh.)

Whitbread, Howard

Pullar, Sir Robert

Steadman, W. C.

White, J. D. (Dumbartonshire)

Rea, Russell (Gloucester)

Stewart, Halley (Greenock)

White, Luke (York, E.R.)

Rea, Walter Russell (Scarboro'

Stewart-Smith, D. (Kendal)

Whitehead, Rowland

Rees, J. D.

Strachey, Sir Edward

Whitley, John Henry (Halifax)

Renton, Major Leslie

Straus, B. S. (Mile End)

Wiles, Thomas

Richards, Thomas(W.Monm'th

Strauss, E. A. (Abingdon)

Wilkie, Alexander

Richards, T. F. (Wolverhmpt'n

Summerbell, T.

Williams, Llewelyn(Carmarth'n

Rickett, J. Compton

Sutherland, J. E.

Wilson, Henry J.(York. W.R.)

Ridsdale, E. A.

Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth)

Wilson, J. H. (Middlesbrough)

Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)

Taylor, John W. (Durham)

Wilson, P. W. (St. Pancras, S.)

Robertson, Rt. Hn. E. (Dundee)

Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)

Wood, T. M'Kinnon

Robertson,Sir G.Scott(Bradf'rd

Tennant, H. J. (Berwickshire)

Robson, Sir William Snowdon

Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.)

TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr.Whiteley and Mr. J. A. Pease.

Rogers, F. E. Newman

Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.)

Rose, Charles Day

Thomas, David Alfred(Merthyr

Rowlands, J.

Thomasson, Franklin

NOES.

Anstruther-Gray, Major

Faber, Capt, W. V. (Hants, W.)

Pease, Herbert Pike(Darlington

Arnold-Forster,Rt.Hn Hugh O.

Fardell, Sir T. George

Percy, Earl

Aubrey-Fletcher,Rt.Hon.Sir H

Fell, Arthur

Powell,.Sir Francis Sharp

Balcarres, Lord

Forster, Henry William

Randles, Sir John Scurrah

Baldwin, Alfred

Gardner, Ernest (Berks, East)

Roberts,S.(Sheffield,Ecclesall)

Banbury,Sir Frederick George

Gibbs, G. A. (Bristol, West)

Salter, Arthur Clavell

Baring,Capt.Hn.G( Winchester)

Haddock, George R.

Sandys, Lieut.-Col. Thos.Myles

Barnes, G. N.

Hamilton, Marquess of

Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert

Barrie, H. T. (Londonderry,N.)

Hardy,Laurence(Kent, Ashford

Sheffield,Sir BerkeleyGeorge D.

Beach, Hn. Michael HughHicks

Harris, Frederick Leverton

Sloan, Thomas Henry

Beckett, Hon. Gervase

Harrison-Broadley, H. B.

Smith,Abel H(Hertford, East)

Bignold, Sir Arthur

Hervey,F.W.F.(Bury SEdm'ds

Smith,F.E.(Liverpool, Walton)

Bowles, G. Stewart

Hill, Sir Clement (Shrewsbury)

Starkey, John R.

Boyle, Sir Edward

Hills, J. W.

Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

Bridgeman, W. Clive

Jowett, F. W.

Talbot.Rt. HnJ.G.(Oxf'd Univ.

Burdett-Coutts, W.

Kenyon-Slaney,Rt. Hon.Col. W

Thomson.W. Mitchell-(Lanark)

Butcher, Samuel Henry

King,Sir HenrySeymour(Hull)

Thorne, William

Carlile, E. Hildred

Lambton, Hon Frederick Win.

Thornton. Percy M.

Castlereagh, Viscount

Lane-Fox, G. R.

Valentia Viscount

Cave, George

Lee, Arthur H(Hants.,Fareham

Vincent, Col. Sir C. E. Howard

Cavendish, Rt. Hon. VictorC. W.

Lockwood, Rt. Hn. Lt. -Col. A. R.

Walker,Col.W.H. (Lancashire)

Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

Long,Col. CharlesW. (Evesham

Walrond, Hon. Lionel

Cecil, Lord John P. Joicey-

Long,Rt. Hn. Walter(Dublin,S)

Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid)

Cecil, Lord R. (Marylebone, E.)

Lonsdale, John Brownlee

Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.)

Chamberlain, RtHnJ. A. (Wore.

Lowe, Sir Francis William

Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry

Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred

Wilson,A Stanley(York, E.R.)

Clark,George Smith(Belfast,N.

MacIver, David (Liverpool)

Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)

Coates,E.Feetham (Lewisham)

M'Calmont, Colonel James

Wortley, Rt. Hon. C B. Stuart-

Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

Magnus, Sir Philip

Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)

Moore, William

Courthope, G. Loyd

Muntz, Sir Philip A.

TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Viscount Morpeth and Mr. Ashley.

Craig,Captain James(Down,E.)

Nield, Herbert

Dixon-Hartland,Sir FredDixon

O'Grady, J.

Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

Parker, James (Halifax)

Faber, George Denison (York)

Parkes, Ebenezer

MR. HALDANEformally moved the omission of the words "after consultation" in lines 9 and 10.
Amendment proposed—
"In page 2, lines 9 and 10 to leave out the words" after consultation.—(Mr. Secretary Haldane)
Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the clause."
MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAINasked if the Secretary of State for War had any explanation to offer of this Amendment. What reason was there for leaving out those words?
MR. HALDANEsaid it was a purely drafting Amendment.
Amendment agreed to.
MR. ASHLEYmoved to leave out subsection (g). It seemed to him that different localities might have different forms of procedure. He had a precedent for the course he was suggesting in the Education Bill of 1902, which provided that any county council might establish education committees constituted in accordance with a scheme made by the council and approved by the Education Board. That was what he desired to be done in this case. He wished to have the whole of the internal affairs arranged in accordance with the scheme made by each county association, and approved afterwards by the Army Council. He thought it was much better that these local matters should be arranged by the local association. Surely such matters as the appointment of the secretary, the chairman, and the officers could be better done by the local association than by an order of the Army Council.
SIR HOWARD VINCENTseconded the Amendment. He said it would be quite impossible for the authorities on the Army Council to appreciate fully the difference in county feeling. The county association was much better able to understand what would be good for a locality than the Army Council. What was the Army Council? It consisted of two Members of the House of Commons, one Member of the House of Lords, and three generals who had spent most of their time in India and know nothing
222
whatever of local feeling. Whatever might be their individual merits as soldiers, they could not be expected to. understand and sympathise with local feeling in the way that was necessary for success. The right hon. Gentleman was really going against his own Bill. The Party sitting on the Opposition Benches had always been associated with the extension of local government, and they thought some sympathy in that direction would have been shown by hon. Gentlemen opposite. That, however, did not appear to be so, judging from the small trust they were reposing in the county associations, because they were now tying them down by a cast-iron rule. If county associations were to be bound by a set of rules of this kind made by the Army Council it was quite certain they would not work. What they required to do was to promote as much us possible local feeling and enthusiasm, and produce local emulation between different cities and boroughs for the furtherance and the success of the Territorial Force. His hon. friend had proposed the Amendment to assist the right hon. Gentleman in making the county associations a success, and he hoped he would recognise the help which it was intended to give him. He thought that even the three parliamentarians and the three generals ought to have an opportunity of seeing these rules before they were put into force in order to see that they did not subvert the principles of the whole Bill which he would be one of the first to support when it was carried.
Amendment proposed to the Bill—
"In page 2, line 18, to leave out paragraph (g)."—( Mr. Ashley)
Question proposed, "That paragraph (g) stand part of the Bill."
MR. HALDANEsaid that his chief fear was that if he were to accept this Amendment he would fall under the bullets of those Volunteers whom his hon. and gallant friend did not load, and who had manifested the most lively dislike to control by local bodies of the affairs of their force. They had said "we are quite willing to take local administration of a military character by people who understand us and consider us," and they had asked the Army

223
Council to frame the schemes themselves. If the hon. Member who had moved the Amendment would only recall what the situation was he would see why the arrangement could only be a provisional one. The proposition was that the appointment of the chairman and the vice-chairman should take place under the scheme which was to be framed by the Army Council once for all for each association. That was to say that when the Bill became law, and they had to frame the scheme, that body could do the thing much better than if it was done according to the varying local opinions, and the most varying ideas. They would certainly consult the localities very closely and very carefully. They would have an idea that they were likely to form the association, and they would provide a scheme which would not always be the same for each county, because there might be variations, but they would provide machinery by which the chairman and the vice-chairman could be elected. There might be cases in which the Army Council might be asked to nominate the chairman and the vice-chairman in the first instance, and then the machinery would provide what was to happen after that. It might be that in other cases the association would desire to elect the chairman and the vice-chairman themselves, in which case the council would promote a scheme to meet their wishes. He instanced those cases to show the great necessity for observing two principles. The first was that wherever they could consult the locality they should do so; and the second was that they should, wherever they could, give the locality some guide as to the sort of thing they wanted. That was why they wished to consult the localities according to their varying circumstances, so as to ascertain the form the schemes should take. It followed that the provisions as to the appointment of the officers should vary; in some cases it might be well to elect them straight off and in others leave them to be appointed by the association.
VISCOUNT MORPETHsaid the right hon. Gentleman had told them that he proposed to consult the localities. He had not told them what body he proposed to consult, and he had always shown quite clearly that he did not trust the real local self-governing bodies.
224
There were two authorities in the counties—the lord-lieutenant and the county council. The right hon. Gentleman had; thrown over the county council because of the storm among the Volunteers, and he had thrown over the lord-lieutenant, who ought to be at the head of the military force in the county, apparently because of the political storm among his own supporters. When the Bill was introduced the county association was to be the body which was to bring local life and sap into the dying Territorial Forces and to encourage country gentlemen to associate themselves with the local life of the county. There was no greater danger than sham self government. What the, right hon. Gentleman now proposed was not self-government at all. He would have far greater confidence in the scheme if the right hon. Gentleman and the military authorities took the matter into their own hands. He himself had never pretended that these associations would be of any value, but if they were to be set up as pure dummies appointed at Whitehall they would be a hindrance, a pretence, and a sham.
MR. WYNDHAM: said the discussion illustrated the difficulty the House had to encounter owing to the way in which the Bill was being put through. This clause alone would have required a very long discussion to enable them to understand the body which the Minister of War saw in his imagination hon. Members could not conceive exactly what shape the body would ultimately take. The proposal in the Bill was that the scheme should provide for the appointment of the chairman and the vice-chairman, but the Minister for War had reserved to himself how they were to be appointed. It might be by nomination, or it might be by election. If election, by whom? The right hon. Gentleman had thrown out the idea that probably there would be nomination in the first place, and that then if local opinion desired election, election would be substituted. What was the local opinion going to be? In the earlier part of the clause it had already been laid down that the majority of the association was to consist of officers representing the Territorial Forces. If it was left to election, would it not be the case that there would be a tendency to divide into two parties—a military party who desired that the chairman should

225
be a military officer, and a local economical administration party holding the contrary view that the chairman should be the best business man in the county? Surely at the Report stage of the Bill the right hon. Gentleman must have some predilection in his mind. Did he hope that the chairman would be a military man or a business man? Were they not entitled to know which he desired? If he desired the first, of course, he was the best judge
as to who the military man should be, but if he desired a local business man the locality would be the best judge. He thought the House should be told provisionally what the right hon. Gentleman expected under the Bill.
Question put.
The House divided: — Ayes, 267; Noes, 89. (Division List No. 236).

AYES.

Abraham, William (Rhondda)

Corbett,C.H.(Sussex,E.Grinst'd

Hodge, John

Acland, Francis Dyke

Cotton, Sir H. J. S.

Holland, Sir William Henry

Ainsworth, John Stirling

Craik, Sir Henry

Horniman, Emslie John

Alden, Percy

Cremer, William Randal

Horridge, Thomas Gardner

Allen,A Acland (Christchurch)

Crombie, John William

Howard, Hon. Geoffrey

Allen, Charles P. (Stroud)

Crosfield, A. H.

Hyde, Clarendon

Armstrong,W.C. (Heaton

Dalmeny, Lord

Idris, T. H. W.

Ashton, Thomas Gair

Dalziel, James Henry

Isaacs, Rufus Daniel

Asquith.Rt.Hon Herbert Henry

Davies, Ellis William (Eifion)

Jackson, R. S.

Atherley-Jones, L.

Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardigan

Jenkins, J.

Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth)

Davies, Timothy (Fulham)

Johnson, John (Gateshead)

Baker, Joseph A.(Finsbury, E.)

Dickinson, W.H.(St Pancras,N.

Johnson, W. (Nuneaton)

Balfour, Robert (Lanark)

Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.

Jones,Sir D.Brynmor(Swansea)

Baring,Godfrey(Isle of Wight)

Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

Jones, Leif (Appleby)

Barker, John

Duncan, C(Barrow-in-Furness)

Jones, William (Carnarvonshire

Barlow,John Emmot (Somerset

Dunn, A. Edward (Camborne)

Kearley, Hudson E.

Barlow, Percy (Bedford)

Dunne,Major E Martin(Walsall

Kincaid-Smith, Captain

Barnes, G. N.

Edwards, Clement (Denbigh)

King, Alfred John (Knutsford)

Barran, Rowland Hirst

Edwards, Frank (Radnor)

Kitson, Rt. Hon. Sir James

Barry, Redmond J.(Tyrone,N.)

Elibank, Master of

Laidlaw, Robert

Beale, W. P.

Ellis, Rt. Hon. John Edward

Lamb, Edmund.(Leominster

Beauchamp, E

Esslemont, George Birnie

Lambert, George

Bell, Richard

Evans, Samuel T.

Lamont, Norman

Bellairs, Carlyon

Eve, Harry Trelawney

Lea,Hugh Cecil(St.Pancras, E.

Benn,W.(T'w'r Hamlets,S.Geo.

Everett, R. Lacey

Leese,Sir Joseph F(Accrington

Bennett E. N.

Faber, G. H. (Boston)

Lehmann, R. C.

Berridge. T. H. D.

Fenwick. Charles

Lever, A. Levy(Essex,Harwich)

Bertram, Julius

Ferens, T. R.

Lever, W. H. (Cheshire,Wirral)

Bethell, SirJ.H.( Essex, Romford

Fiennes, Hon. Eustace

Levy, Maurice

Bethell, T. R. (Essex, Maldon)

Findlay, Alexander

Lewis, John Herbert

Billson, Alfred

Foster, Rt. Hon. Sir Walter

Lloyd-George, Rt. Hon. David

Black, Arthur W.

Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

Lough, Thomas

Bowerman, C. W.

Fuller, John Michael F.

Lupton. Arnold

Brace, William

Fullerton, Hugh

Luttrell, Hugh Fownes

Bramsdon, T. A.

Gardner,Col. Alan(Hereford,S.

Lyell, Charles Henry

Branch, James

Gladstone,Rt.HnHerbert John

Lynch, H. B.

Brodie, H. C.

Glover, Thomas

Macdonald,J.M.(Falkirk Bghs)

Brunner,J.F.L.(Lanes., Leigh)

Goddard, Daniel Ford

Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.

Bryce, J. Annan.

Grant, Corrie

MCallum, John M.

Buchannan, Thomas Ryburn

Greenwood, G. (Peterborough)

M'Crae, George

Buckmaster, Stanley O.

Greenwood, Hamar (York)

M'Laren, H. D. (Stafford, W.)

Burns. Rt. Hon. John

Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward

Maddison, Frederick

Burt. Rt. Hon. Thomas

Griffith, Ellis J.

Mallet, Charles E.

Byles, William Pollard

Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

Manfield, Harry (Northants)

Cameron, Robert

Haldane, Rt. Hon Richard B.

Marks,G.Croydon(Launceston)

Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.

Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Lewis

Marnham, F. J.

Carr-Gomm, H. W.

Harmsworth, Cecil B.(Wore'r)

Massie. J.

Causton,Rt.Hn RichardKnight

Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale)

Masterman, C. F. G.

Channing, Sir Francis Allston

Haworth, Arthur A.

Menzies, Walter

Cheetham, John Frederick

Hazel, Dr. A. E.

Micklem, Nathaniel

Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R.

Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

Money, L. G. Chiozza

Cleland, J. W.

Henderson,J.M(Aberdeen, W.)

Montagu, E. S.

Clough, William

Herbert, Colonel Ivor(Mon.,'S.)

Morgan, G. Hay (Cornwall)

Coats,Sir T. Glen(Renfrew,W.)

Higham, John Sharp

Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen

Collins, Stephen (Lambeth)

Hobart, Sir Robert

Morley, Rt. Hon. John

Collins,.Sir Wm.J.(SPancras, W.

Hobhouse, Charles E. H.

Morton, Alpheus Cleophas

Murray, James

Russell, T. W.

Ure, Alexander

Myer, Horatio

Rutherford. V. H. (Brentford)

Walker, H. De R. (Leicester)

Napier, T. B.

Samuel, Herbert L.(Cleveland)

Walton. Sir John L. (Leeds,S.)

Newnes, F. (Notts,Bassetlaw)

Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel)

Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

Nicholls, George

Scott,A.H.(Ashton under Lyne

Ward John (Stoke upon Trent)

Nicholson,Charles A(Doncaster

Sears, J. E.

Ward, W.Dudley (Southampt'n

Norton, Capt. Cecil William

Seaverns. J. H.

Wardle, George. J.

Nuttall, Harry

Seely, Major J. B.

Waring, Walter

Parker, James (Halifax)

Shaw, Rt. Hon. T. (Hawick B.)

Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.

Paulton, James Mellor

Sherwell, Arthur James

Wason,Eugene(Clackmannan)

Pearce, William (Limehouse)

Shipman, Dr. John G.

Wason,JohnCatheart (Orkney)

Philipps,J.Wynford (Pembroke

Sinclair, Rt. Hon. John

Waterlow. D. S.

Philipps. Owen C. (Pembroke)

Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie

Watt, Henry A.

Pickersgill. Edward Hare

Soares. Ernest J.

Weir, James Galloway

Pirie, Duncan V.

Spicer, Sir Albert

White,.J. D. (Dumbartonshire)

Pollard, Dr.

Stanger. H. Y.

White. Luke (York. E. R.)

Price, C.E. (Edinburgh,Central

Stanley.Hn.A.Lyulph (Chesh.)

Whitley, John Henry (Halifax.)

Pullar, Sir Robert

Steadman, W. C.

Whittaker, Sir Thomas Palmer

Rainy, A. Rolland

Stewart. Halley (Greenock)

Wiles, Thomas

Rea, Russell (Gloucester)

Stewart-Smith, D. (Kendal)

Wilkie, Alexander

Rea, Walter Russell (Searboro'

Strachey, Sir Edward

Williams. J. (Glamorgan)

Rees, J. D.

Straus, B. S. (Mile End)

Williams, Llewelyn(Carmarthen

Renton. Major Leslie

Strauss, E. A. (Abingdon)

Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)

Richards,Thomas(W. Monm'th

Summerbell, T.

Williamson. A.

Richards,T.F.Wolverhampton

Sutherland. J. E.

Wilson, Henry J. (York, W.R.)

Rickett, J. Compton

Taylor. John W. (Durham)

Wilson. J. H. (Middlesbrough)

Ridsdale, E. A.

Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)

Wilson, P. W. (St.Pancras, S. )

Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)

Tennant, SirEdward(Salisbury

Winfrey, R.

Roberts, John H. (Denbigh.)

Tennant, H. J. (Berwickshire)

Wood,T. M'Kinnon

Robertson,SirG.Scott (Bradford

Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.)

Robson, Sir William Snowdon

Thomas, SirA.(Glamorgan,E.)

TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr.Whiteley and Mr. J. A. Pease.

Rogers, F. E. Newman

Thomas, DavidAlfred(Merthyr)

Rose. Charles Day

Torrance, Sir A. M.

Rowlands, J.

Toulmin, George

Runciman, Walter

Trevelyan, Charles Philips

NOES.

Aubrey-Fletcher,Rt.Hn. Sir H.

Gibbs. G. A. (Bristol, West)

Powell. Sir Francis Sharp

Balcarres, Lord

Grettoa, John

Randles, Sir John Scurrah

Baldwin, Alfred

Haddock, George R.

Rawlinson,John FrederickPeel

Banbury, Sir Frederick George

Hamilton, Marquess of

Roberts.S. (Sheffield,Ecclesall)

Baring,Capt.HnG.(Winchester)

Hardy,Laurence (Kent,Ashford

Salter, Arthur Clavell

Barrie, H. T. (Londonderry. N.

Harris, Frederick Leverton

Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert

Beach. Hn.Michael HughHicks

Harrison-Broadley, H. B.

Scott,SirS. (Marylebone, W.)

Beckett, Hon. Gervase

Hervey.F.W.F.(BuryS.Edm'ds

Sheffield,Sir BerkeleyGeorgeD.

Bignold, Sir Arthur

Hill, Sir Clement (Shrewsbury)

Sloan, Thomas Henry

Bowles, G. Stewart

Hills, J. W.

Smith,F. E.(Liverpool,Walton)

Boyle, Sir Edward

Jowett. F. W.

Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)

Bridgeman,W. Clive

Kenyon-Slaney,Rt.Hn. Col. W.

Starkey, John R.

Burdett-Coutts, W.

Keswick, William

Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

Butcher, Samuel Henry

King SirHenry Seymour(Hull)

Thomson. W. Mitchell-(Lanark)

Carlile, E. Hildred

Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm.

Thorne, William

Carson, Rt. Hn. Sir Edw. H.

Lane-Fox, G. R.

Thornton, Percy M.

Castlereagh, Viscount

Lockwood,Rt.Hn.Lt.-Col.A.R,

Tuke. Sir John Batty

Cave, George

Long.Rt.Hn.Walter (Dublin, S.

Valentia, Viscount

Cavendish.Rt. Hon. VictorC.W.

Lonsdale, John Brownlee

Walker,Col. W. H.(Lancashire)

Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

Lowe, Sir Francis William

Walrond. Hon. Lionel

Cecil, Lord R. (Marylebone, E.)

Lyttelton, Rt, Hon. Alfred

Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid)

Coates,E. Feetham (Lewisham)

MacIver, David (Liverpool)

Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.)

Cochrane,Hn. Thos. H. A. E.

M'Calmont, Colonel James

Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

Courthope, G. Loyd

Morpeth, Viscount

Wilson,A. Stanley (York,E.R.)

Craig,Capt. James (Down, E.)

Muntz, Sir Philip A.

Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)

Dixon-Hartland,SirFredDixon

Nield, Herbert

Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart

Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

O'Grady, J.

Wyndham. Rt. Hon. George

Faber, Capt, W. V. (Hants, W.)

Parker,SirGilbert(Gravesend)

Fell, Arthur

Parkes, Ebenezer

TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr.Ashley and Sir Howard Vincent.

Forster, Henry William

Pease, HerbertPike(Darlington)

Gardner, Ernest (Berks, East)

Percy, Earl

VISCOUNT CASTLEREAGH: moved the omission of Clause 2. He said he did not move the Amendment
228
in a hostile spirit, but rather because under the action of the guillotine when the Bill was in Committee it had been

229
impossible to have any discussion whatever in regard to the constitution, duties, and powers of the county associations which were to be set up. The associations were an entirely new departure in our military organisation. He did not think for a moment that the right hon. Gentleman had any desire to evade discussion, for he understood that his desire was to make a statement in regard to the county associations. He had said that in this respect there was no necessity to alter one line or word in the Bill; but he could not remove the apprehension that many hon. Members had in regard to the county associations without making some alteration. The Bill was of such a vague character that some alteration was necessary to enable hon. members to comprehend what was at the back of the mind of the right hon. Gentleman. They know that a system of associations was recommended by the Esher Committee. He had no idea to what extent that recommendation went, but he knew that the suggestions of that Committee were not followed by the Bill. The county associations were practically a new departure, and the definite supervision of the Army Council was also an entirely new departure, and should be discussed fully by the House. It was obvious that the duties of the county associations would be very numerous, onerous, and arduous. On the associations there were to be representatives of the county, officers of the Territorial Army, representatives of the county councils and the borough councils, and of the universities. There wore also to be a number of co-opted members, a chairman, and a vice-chairman. That would form a vast body and would add to the numerous bodies already established all over the country. He asked the right hon. Gentleman how he expected such a body of amateurs to take upon themselves those exceedingly onerous duties which would devolve upon them. If they were to be chosen for efficiency they would be busy men and hardly able to devote themselves to the competent discharge of their duties. It was said that during the South African War county committees rose all over the country, but he did not think that there was any analogy with the proposals now made. The association was to be summoned by the Army Council, and
230
the duty to be imposed upon it when constituted was "to make itself acquainted with and conform to the plan of the Army Council for the organisation of the Territorial Force within the county and to ascertain the military resources and capabilities of the county, and to render advice and assistance to the Army Council and to such officers as the Army Council may direct, and an association shall have, exercise, and discharge such powers and duties connected with the organisation and administration of His Majesty's military forces as may for the time being be transferred or assigned to it by order of His Majesty signified under the hand of a Secretary of State." He asked how the right hon. Gentleman could expect that busy men could give up sufficient time to do all that. And then, so far as he could see, there was to be no remuneration given to them. He moved the omission of Clause 2.
SIR SAMUEL SCOTTseconded. So far as he could understand, the Army Council was to have a very curious control. If they looked closely at the clause the duties which the county associations were to perform were practically all the functions at present exercised by the War Office. There was no guarantee that there would be cohesion and similarity of method such as was desirable; and he hoped the right hon. Gentle man would assure the House as to what steps he had taken to ensure that cohesion and uniformity of method In the future the Territorial Force would be commanded to a great extent by the county associations, who would lack the military weight of the War Office, and whose orders would not have the same effect as if they came from the War Office. He could not understand through what channel the different associations were to approach the War Office. As far as he could make out there would be no particular de-department for the purpose except the Civil Department, the head of which would be a political appointment, and he viewed that with considerable misapprehension. He hoped that the right hon. Gentleman would seriously consider the necessity of appointing as member of the Army Council a military officer preferably belonging to the Territorial Army to look after the Territorial Army.
Amendment proposed to the Bill—
"In page 3, line 16, to leave out Clause 2"—(Viscount Castlereagh)
Question proposed, "That Clause 2 stand part of the Bill."
MR. HALDANEthought it was quite reasonable that an opportunity should be given to raise a general discussion on the position of the county associations. Those associations were perhaps the most novel feature in the whole scheme, and it was as well that the House should have a proper discussion as to their position and significance. The origin of the associations was this. They knew from experience how difficult it was to look after the affairs of the Volunteer Force without a very great deal of local co-operation. They knew very well that to try to manage the Volunteers directly from the War Office would be to overwhelm the force with red-tape and to drown in correspondence all possibility of its expansion; and they know that the Volunteers were perfectly adapted for local handling. The principle which underlay the clause was to bring in mind the difference between command and training on the one hand and administration on the other. They would have to look after the force, its supplies, equipment and arms, and also the provision of ranges. They would have to consider how best to raise this force and obtain the resources of the country so as to make the best of them. That was a task which it was impossible to discharge through the War Office. Decentralisation they must have, and the question was how best to decentralise. Under the old organisation of lie Volunteers there was a good deal of decentralisation, because the commanding officers of units had not only to train their troops, but to provide for supplies, form their bases, and even to pay the debts of the corps. The War Office felt that that would be an impossible position to continue if they were to make the Volunteer force a real force, and consequently, when they came to the reconstitution of the Home Army, they sought to devise a scheme by which the question of administration might be handled locally and yet be left in such a fashion that the individual power of the commanding officers should not be overwhelmed. By far the best plan seemed
232
to them to be to form in the different counties associations consisting of the very people who had done the work hitherto. At least one half of the members of the county associations would be the commanding officers, and they would continue to do the work with which they had been familiar in the past. They would have a secretary who would be an efficient person, and the chairman especially would be a man of business. The associations would be in constant communication and touch with the War Office in more ways than one, both directly through their officials and indirectly through the brigadiers. The Regular officers would be armed with power to attend the meetings of the associations and advise them, although they would have no power to vote. They had taken every means in their power to bring the Associations into close touch with the War Office and at the same time to leave them an open hand and preserve their local character. In the past few weeks he had had experience of the enormous advantage of enlisting the sympathies of those who were of importance in the counties. He had been arranging lately the plan of the cavalry manœuvres which were going to take place in the counties of Scotland. They had managed to bring to their assistance a long string of landowners right down from the North of Perthshire to the South of Scotland, and even on his own small property he would have some 1,300 troops quartered in the next few weeks. Many others had come forward and they had been able to arrange for the manœuvres without a single penny being paid for the land upon which they were to be held. They had not only secured the sympathy of the owners of the land but of the farmers and also of the local tradesmen. Wherever possible contracts for supplies would be given in the locality. There was nothing more encouraging for the prospects of this clause than the way in which the authorities had been met in every county in Scotland. It was infinitely better than the old state of things under which the War Office always had to pay the utmost the law allowed, because the Government was looked upon as the general milch cow. They looked to these associations so to arrange matters that in future owners would not object once in five or six years to troops going over convenient portions

233
of their land, especially when compensation was paid for damage done and the presence of the soldiers brought custom to the district. Even if there were drawbacks to the scheme they were more than counterbalanced by its advantages, because their object was to bring the Territorial Army more in touch with the nation, and he thought that in that sense no exception could be taken to the phrase "a nation in arms." They believed that the clause would be popular throughout the length and breadth of the land. He was asked how they provided for unity of action. They relied very much upon the fact that the associations would be under the direction of the Army Council, The Army Council would, of course, not interfere in details. It would be impossible for them to work out how the quota should be supplied from each district. That must be settled by the people on the spot who knew the local units and the nature of the material of which they were made up. The old-fashioned officialdom, moreover, would know nothing of the rifle ranges required and nothing of local custom. In the past they had not been able to suit either employers or employed, but if they got into communication with those on the spot they would be able to suit both; there were a hundred and one details of military service which could be better carried out by means of decentralisation than by a central body. He challenged those who opposed the scheme to say what they would put in its place. If they came to close quarters with the question they would see that there was nothing so strong as the case for the associations, although they might discuss their constitution. Time must elapse before they would know to what extent the associations would be operative, but they would provide something of an organisation of county life, revivify interest, and bring now life into the country districts where it was very much needed.
MR. WYNDHAMsaid he was very glad the right hon. Gentleman had had an opportunity of saying something in regard to the county associations. The right hon. Gentleman had said the chairman would be a business man. If he might use a figure of speech suggested by the word chairman he would like to know who were to be the shareholders;
234
who were the people who were going to sanction the expenditure and to provide the money? When they turned to the next clause they found that all the funds were to be provided by the Army Council. They were the people who were to assign the money to the different objects and decide how much to each. The power of an Association to decide whether its money should be spent on rifle ranges and manœuvre grounds would be very small indeed. If it came into conflict with the Army Council acting in the same district the County Association would go to the wall, because it would be contending with people who had the power of the purse. He further desired to point out that the functions put upon the County Associations fell into two broad categories. Some fell into the category of expedients, such as the provision of manœuvre grounds and provision for the families of men who went abroad. In such directions the County Associations might do good work. But before passing from the provision of rifle ranges and manœuvre grounds the right hon. Gentleman should approach the Department of Woods and Forests and attempt to influence that Department to assist the County Associations in these matters. The Crown owned large tracts of land, much of which was suitable for these purposes, but the Crown had always taken the strict landlord view and had endeavoured to extract large rents for them. It had opposed the efforts of commanding officers of those forces year after year until they almost despaired of turning to account those tracts in England best suited to these purposes He put it to the right hon. Gentleman that some easy channel should be opened up between the County Associations and the Department of Woods and Forests in order that they might co-operate in this great effort. Other functions of the County Associations were of another character, and there he was not so hopeful of a successful result ensuing. He alluded to recruiting and providing horses. Those functions were of a totally distinct character and he was not sure that the same body should be in charge of the two sets of functions, because it would have to choose on which to spend its money. If it spent its money largely on manœuvre grounds and rifle ranges and so forth

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it would not have the energy to see to the recruiting. He thought the recruiting should be in the hands of the commanding officers as at present and that the County Associations should direct their energies solely to those matters which were of a somewhat commercial character. Otherwise, neither set of functions would be carried out effectively, and they were far better fitted to perform the former rather than the latter. The commanding officers had often great difficulty in respect to the component parts of their corps, and had to decide whether a company could be drawn from a particular district. They were experts, and the recruiting should be left to them or to soldiers. He hoped when the right hon. Gentleman came to deal with this matter he would reconsider his plan. Apparently, the County Associations were not only to mount the Yeomanry in time of peace but to keep a register of all horses available for any purpose in time of war. The horse question was a very difficult one. In any case, there was the danger of two sets of people buying in the same market for the same purpose. He believed that was a subject to which the right hon. Gentleman would have to give very careful attention.
Mr. McCRAEdid not think the right hon. Member for Dover was very convincing in his criticism in connection with the division of duties of providing rifle ranges, etc., and recruiting, because, as he understood from his right hon. friend that afternoon, those functions would be separated on the Estimates. It would be made impossible for the County Associations to spend money under one head on any other purposes. He rose to draw attention to a matter which he considered to be of serious constitutional importance. Under Clause 2, line 22 and onwards, his right hon. friend, unless he put in some limiting words, was really taking power to hand over to the County Associations not only the finance and administration of the Territorial Army, but of the Regular forces also. He knew that was not the intention of the right hon. Gentleman but it was the effect of the Bill. He was particularly anxious as to that point because he felt that the less the County Associations had to do with the control of the finance, even of the
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Territorial Army, the better. He there fore brought the fact to the notice of the right hon. Gentleman in the hope that he would restrict the operation of the clause.
COLONEL KENYON-SLANEYsaid his right hon. friend the Member for Dover had spoken of the County Associations spending their money on different objects, and that phrase had again raised the old suspicion in his mind to which he called attention in Committee. What money was it that they were to spend? Was it still contemplated that the County Associations were to spend money other than the funds supplied by the Army Council? Because if that was so the Government were setting up a fatal system which would lead to inequality in the Army. He hoped the right hon. Gentleman would distinctly and positively assure the House that the County Associations were not to raise or spend any money other than that put at their disposal by the Army Council after it had approved of the scheme of the County Associations. He believed the County Associations as constituted under the Bill would be unable to work; that they would lead to confusion and extravagance and not to any purpose of good soldiering. He therefore urged the right hon. Gentle man to separate the functions that he intended to impose on the County Associations, and keep them entirely clear from any sort of interference with the actual soldier while the man was a soldier. They should have nothing to do with ranges or recruiting. The raising of the Yeomanry recruit should be left with the Yeomanry colonel and the Volunteer recruiting to the Volunteer colonel. The raising of the Regular troops for the Crown should be distinctly left to the War Office. The introduction of this hybrid element, this semi-civilian and semi-business element, would be altogether mischievous. He thought they would be imposing upon the Associations a duty which would lead to a great many local jealousies and a great deal of mistrust, and instead of cementing kindly feeling between the county element and the military element, they would do a great deal to upset it. He could understand, apart from military administration, how these County Associations could be made useful for a limited

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purpose. They might be used to discharge duties which were now per formed by two or? three kindred associations. There was the Soldiers' and Sailors' Families Association, which dealt with the families while the husbands were away in time of war, and there was the association whose object was to find employment for soldiers after they had returned from the war. Neither association was allowed to spend a penny on the objects of the other; and so they had two or three associations in every county overlapping, making the work more difficult. It was only by having a central association in every county that they could deal with all these matters relating to the Imperial forces, and such an association as the County Association would be able adequately to deal with them. If they reserved the County Associations for that kind of work they would be doing well, but if they put actual live soldiering upon them the duties would not be properly performed. Supposing a General-in Command came in conflict with the new County Association on some point as to when and where the soldiers should train, was the Commanding Officer or the County Association to have the supreme voice? If it was not to be the General Officer, what an absurd position they put him in; for he must of necessity be a far better judge than the County Association of what should be the training of the men and which would be the most suitable locality for their training. He had never attempted to conceal his disapprobation of the work proposed to be put upon the County Associations and of this encouragement of them illegitimately to spend illegitimate money, which they had no business to spend and no business to raise. He wished that they should act entirely in concert with military advisers, possibly on such questions as the provision of ranges and areas, and also with regard to looking after soldiers on their return to civilian life. The Government proposal was fraught with danger, and he much regretted the determination at which the right hon. Gentleman had arrived.
SIR HOWARD VINCENTsaid the point raised by the hon. and gallant Member for Edinburgh was of very serious importance, and it should have the most careful attention of the Secre-
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tary of State. He was extremely glad to hear the right hon. Gentleman state that the establishment of County Associations was the most novel part of the Bill, and should have received full discussion. When the right hon. Gentle man said that, he could not have re collected that nearly a month before the discussion came on, the whole process of debate was absolutely prevented. On the first day the Bill was in Committee only two lines of the whole clause was dealt with, and three foolscap pages were advanced without anyone having an opportunity of saying a single syllable as to the constitution, powers, and duties of the Associations, or of the financial arrangements appertaining there to. He was very glad to see the Financial Secretary to the War Office in his place and in charge of the Bill, because they had hardly heard his voice during the whole of its conduct; when a private Member he was continually speaking; now they never heard his voice. He would like to learn the hon. Gentleman's personal view on the important point raised by the hon. Member for Marylebone, who said that it was unfair that the Army Council should regulate the whole of the proceedings of the County Associations. They were to have no direct representation of the Territorial Force upon the Army Council, with the exception of a political officer, who had no practical knowledge or experience, or very rarely indeed, and was appointed for a reason entirely other than his knowledge and experience of the Territorial Force. It was most unfair and improper that these great duties should be forced upon the Army Council without the Territorial Force having distinct representation upon it by the presence of an officer of high rank who was fully acquainted with the whole of the details, to say nothing of the feelings of the force and of the locality. The political officer, the Under-Secretary of State, who represented the War Office in the Upper House, could not possibly, with his Parliamentary duties, go about visiting the Associations and the regiments, and he had no technical knowledge and experience. If the Territorial Force were represented as it should be on the Army Council by an officer of high rank, responsible for that force, it would be possible to lay before the Council in large measure the feelings of

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the different localities, which it was so absolutely necessary should be done. The Financial Secretary probably had observed that the Secretary of State had ignored the remarks of the hon. Member for Marylebone on that subject, and he hoped the Financial Secretary, if he had not spoken already, would give them his views on the point. He would like to hear the hon. Gentleman's defence of the position taken up in defiance of the Duke of Norfolk's Committee on which sat many officers of large experience, who were absolutely unanimous in the view that it was necessary for the efficiency of the Auxiliary Forces that they should be represented on the central department by an officer of experience who believed in the forces, and had knowledge of their aspirations and wishes. Many hon. Members on that side of the House had expressed the hope that this matter would be again raised on Report, the opinion of the Volunteer Forces, the Yeomanry, and Militia being entirely in favour of direct representation upon the Army Council by an officer of practical experience, and not merely by a political officer representing the War Office in the House of Lords. He thought that the Government, if they were anxious for the success of the scheme, should have met that general feeling. It was deplorable, at that time of day, to hear the Secretary of State say that he wanted to make the Volunteer Force a real force, when they remembered that it consisted of 248,000 men, that for several years it had withstood official opposition and the official cold shoulder which had always been shown to them, and that they sent 30,000 men out to the South African War without the stimulus of a moral or legal obligation to do so.
Attention called to the fact that forty Members were not present. House counted, and forty Members being found present.
SIR HOWARD VINCENTsaid the fact of this count showed the extent of the interest taken in the Bill. There had been an extremely small attendance on the Government benches through out the discussions. The fact was that there was no driving power behind the Bill in the country. Every Member on the other side of the House knew that it had fallen perfectly flat. If
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the Bill did go through it would be by the use of a Parliamentary procedure borrowed from foreign legislatures, and not by the merits of the measure in any shape or form. The point he was making was that there should be direct representation of the Territorial Force on the Army Council, by an officer of high rank with a practical knowledge of the force, in accordance with the recommendations of the Norfolk Commission. That was the more important in view of the fact that the House had just declared by large majorities that the War Office was to regulate the proceedings of the county associations, the appointment of chairman and secretary, and all their functionaries. There should be proper and direct representation, and not by means of a branch of the Adjutant-General's Department, presided over by an officer having no executive authority himself, and having to submit every Question and every Paper to the Adjutant-General.
MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKERsaid he did not see how this question arose on the Motion before the House.
SIR HOWARD VINCENTsubmitted that it arose on the proposal of the hon. Member for Marylebone, but he had finished what he had to say.
VISCOUNT MORPETHsaid that when the Bill was first introduced the Association seemed to be an important feature in it. But as the debates proceeded the value of the Association seemed to be steadily diminishing, and its personnel appeared to have very little importance attached to it. The right hon. Gentleman had given rather a bald account of the duties to be assigned to the Association, and he had defended this course on the ground that there should be decentralisation. They had been challenged to say what other plan they had to submit as an alternative which would bring about the desired result. It seemed to him that there was one very obvious and apparent plan, which was that decentralisation should be carried out through the major-general who would in future command the divisions of the Territorial Forces. He was the proper man to deal with the questions assigned to the County Association. Outside the officers commanding battalions, the County Association consisted in its essentials of a chairman

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and secretary. The chairman had to be a business man, but what was a business man? As a rule it meant either a man engaged in commerce or manufacture, or a man of ordinary business like intelligence. If the first, a great many other qualities wont to make up what was required for successful dealing with these matters. If he had to choose between a business man as secretary and a major-general who was commanding a division he would have far more confidence in the decision of the major-general. If the right hon. Gentle-man approached the loading landowners in the same spirit in which he approached those he had referred to in his speech he had no doubt that he would get similar results to those obtained in Perth. To attempt to build up a system of County Associations was altogether an exaggerated bit of constructive legislation. He viewed with some alarm the suggestion that County Associations would be valuable in the way of encouraging local tradesmen by giving them local orders. If the Associations had to purchase their supplies locally the expenditure would be vastly increased.
VISCOUNT CASTLEREAGHasked leave to withdraw his Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
SIR HENRY CRAIKmoved to omit from the sub-section transferring to the County Associations powers for "establishing and maintaining or fostering and encouraging cadet battalions and corps and rifle clubs" the qualifying words, "Provided that no financial assistance shall be given by any association in respect of any person in a battalion or corps in a school in receipt of a Parliamentary grant until such person has attained the age of sixteen." He said the subject he desired to raise was of the greatest interest to those immediately connected with the Army. The questions which had been discussed hitherto were matters of technical rather than of Imperial or National interest, but the subject introduced by the Amendment really touched a large National interest of the first and most important kind. He had refrained from the first from interfering in the debates on this Bill,
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not because he had not the strongest personal reasons for being interested in the matter, or because he had not studied the question, but because he thought it was a matter of presumption on the part of mere laymen to attempt to speak on technical subjects side by side with the military Members of the House. On this special subject, however, he claimed that he had some right to speak. He happened to be one of the very few hon. Members who had sat upon the Advisory Education Board at the War Office from its commencement. For three years he had been chairman of the Army Qualifying Board, and he had formed an opinion upon questions such as those involved in the Amendment. It was because of that experience that he ventured to place his views before the House. He was speaking as one who was by no means an enemy of the Bill. As far as he was able to judge he looked with thorough trust and great admiration on its pro visions, and he had no wish to do anything that would tend to wreck the measure. He wished, however, to appeal to the right hon. Gentle- man from his second thoughts to his first. He desired him to restore his Bill to the form in which it was read a second time. He could not believe that the Bill was introduced without careful consideration, and he preferred himself to follow that stream of clear thinking by which the right hon. Gentleman laid such a store, and in which they fully recognised his mastery before the clear stream was disturbed by the more turbid waters which flowed from his extreme supporters. He appealed to the Secretary of State for War first on what was more or less a technical and a personal point. Only last autumn the right hon. Gentleman appointed a Committee of eminent civilians and military men to consider how from the schools and universities a large supply of what he called supplementary and auxiliary officers might be obtained. That Committee took evidence at some length, and came to certain definite conclusions which were approved by the Army Council. What did those conclusions amount to? Those supplementary and auxiliary officers were to go through a training of a year with a unit of the Army. It was recognised that training for a year was to busy men and to poor men who were compelled to earn their livelihood a very serious difficulty.

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The scheme proposed that a cadet corps from the schools should be formed, and that it should be open to the schools of every grade throughout the country. It was expressly contemplated that by that means a large supply of officers coming from every class of society, and comprising those who were sent by means of county council scholarships to the secondary or intermediate schools, should have certain advantages open to them. They were to be allowed at fifteen years of age to pass an examination after two years training. They were then to obtain a certificate to exempt them from four months of the training. If they went to the University and obtained a further certificate after three or four years training they were then to be exempt for eight months out of the twelve months training. Consequently the advantage to those boys was very considerable. They were to be admitted to the level of officers of the Army. They were to get considerable payment for outfit and payment on the level of a second lieutenant. The light hon. Gentleman carried the scheme a little further than mere approval by the Army Council. The scheme was communicated to the teachers throughout the length and breadth of the country, and they were asked to co-operate. He might say that the scheme was very cordially received, and they were prepared to establish in their schools cadet corps. They pledged themselves to the stirring up of patriotism, and in that way they would have been able to add very largely to the class of supplementary and auxiliary officers. On the 7th June, after the Secretary of State for War had yielded to the disturbing element to which he had alluded, he summoned a meeting at the United Service Institute. On June 7th the right hon. Gentleman summoned a meeting of teachers, and was it not the case that strong disappointment was felt when he took away the foundation of what they expected would give them high results? He hoped the House would remember that he was not speaking of the rich schools. To the large public schools like Eton and Harrow the grants were of no importance; it was the poorer schools scattered throughout the country, and attended by children whose parents could not sub scribe, whose hopes were raised, and whose hopes were now shattered, by the
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proviso which the right hon. Gentleman, without discussion, introduced during the Committee stage. He felt that this was a more or less technical point.; it was closely connected with the whole scheme. He thought the right hon. Gentleman would not deny that it was connected with the general scheme which he had been tracing out. He was doing far more than interfering with the training of a few thousands for the Auxiliary forces. Officers were to be drawn from the very poor. Though their position might be very disadvantageous from birth, if they proved to be in possession of brains and capacity, they would be able to take their position among the officers of the Army. What did the right hon. Gentleman base his whole scheme upon? He based it on an appeal to patriotism; he spoke of the strength of a trained youth and of a nation in arms, but he gave up a fundamental part of his scheme when he withdrew this encouragement to the sense of patriotism, nowhere more readily aroused than in the schools of the country. That observation applied not merely to the upper, but to the intermediary, and even the elementary, schools. Was it for the Army alone that there could be no practical training under the age of 16? Did the training of a sailor not begin until after that age? Did not practical training for the work a lad was to do in after life begin much earlier? In elementary and middle-class schools drill was studied day by day with physical advantage and assistance to education. The verdict of the teachers, one and all, was that they were helped in their work in that way. Was the right hon. Gentleman going to abandon the hopes which he himself had expressed? But while these lads were being denied the opportunities they had enjoyed hitherto, the offer made by the right hon. Gentle man of a £3 premium, which might be gained at the age of fifteen by pupils at the schools, was taken away, and they would be left merely to the tender mercy of voluntary subscriptions, and possibly the small subscriptions, which might be extorted from the teachers or the parents. The right hon. Gentleman might answer that this, after all, was not a matter for the War Office, but for the Education Department. He did not think that that argument would hold water. In the first place, if they introduced military drill into the ordinary curriculum

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of the elementary schools, they gave some ground for saying that it was compulsory. He had no wish to make it compulsory, but if it was embodied in the code as part of the ordinary curriculum they would put an argument into the mouths of those who objected to its being compulsory. Besides, the Education Department had many things to do, and it had not hitherto given any ground for saying that the physical training given in schools was military training, and it was not likely to do so. During the present session it had been seen how the slightest indication of any inclination on the part of the education authorities to introduce such training into the curriculum of the schools would directly be made the subject of complaint in the House. He was afraid, therefore, that the right hon. Gentleman in relieving himself in this way was placing the matter on the shoulders of the President of the Board of Education, who in turn would shift the load on to parents of the children attending the schools. He wanted to make an appeal with all respect to hon. Members who sat below the gangway, and to others who represented extreme opinions on the other side of the House. He knew that there were those who wore almost mad on the subject of the dangers of military training. If a boy wont through squad drill and manual practice, and if he learned to present arms, they thought he was almost a full blown soldier. If he went so far as to practice at a Morris-tube range, they thought the next step would be that he would go out and shoot the first man he met. He hoped that some of those extremely nervous, and perhaps hysterical, persons would learn what military exercise really meant. A gun was a dangerous weapon, but it was never more dangerous than in the hands of those who did not know how to use it. It was dangerous to the enemy if a man knew how to use it, but it was still more dangerous to his friends if he did not know how to use it. He would ask those who wore interested in the training of the children of the labouring classes to think of what they were depriving those children when they objected to military training in schools. Had they no trust in those who worked the schools? He maintained that the vast majority of teachers were prepared to back up Parliament in introducing
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this military drill, not merely as an adjunct of the scheme of the right hon. Gentleman, but as a means of building up character, and of teaching discipline which would not only benefit the boys themselves, but assist the work of the schools. They all knew that the sons of the richer classes did not do all the educational work which they might do; but, after all, by means of their physical training, and the compulsion of discipline, the boys learned comradeship and obedience. If the boys of the poorer classes were withdrawn from the discipline it would be a downright loss to them. They had been told by an hon. Gentleman opposite that this was not an ago of militarism, but an age of industrialism. But, though we were extending our industrial interests with the constant improvements in machinery, was it to be supposed that what might be called our tire insurance for defensive purposes was one whit less necessary, that our growth did not excite the cupidity of others, and entail greater risk, or that they made it less necessary for the country to stand boldly for defence, and not for offence? They were told that this spirit of militarism was to be exorcised, and that they were to devote their whole labour capital to industrialism; but that was to forget that the defence of one's country was one of the first duties of citizenship. Again, they had been told that with the extension of militarism liberty was checked. But what was the experience of the Colonies? Canada, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa—of the prowess of whose sons they had all reason to be proud, and whose democratic spirit was beyond question— had established, without any fears in their hearts, cadet corps for the defence of their country. Natal, with a population of only 100,000 white men, had 4,000 cadets under fifteen years of ago. Mr. Deakin had stated that in Australia there were 30,000 cadets this year, that they would number 40,000 next year, and 50,000 the year after. The Commonwealth Premier at the same time declared that was no injury to the democratic feeling of the country, but made for its safety. No course of action could be more cruel than to neglect boys after their compulsory schooling was ended, and not to keep hold of them so as to train them to take their share, if occasion arose, in the defence of the country, in stead of sending them long afterwards

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into the rough and tumble of the battle field with insufficient preparation and training. He fancied he was not wrong in thinking that the right hon. Gentleman fully recognised the importance of the very crucial question presented to him in the Amendment, although he spoke as if it were a dangerous reef which might wreck his ship. He was not one of those who despaired; time was on their side. The feeling of the nation was against the policy of the Government. Parents, children, teachers were all alike in favour of military drill for their boys, and day by day the number of cadet corps was increasing. The time would come when we would have the beginning of a nation in arms. He begged to move.
MR. GUY BARINGin seconding said he had had six years service in Australia, and had personal experience as a soldier of the value of cadet corps. There was no more conspicuous or smarter body at the memorial service in Melbourne to the late Queen than the cadet corps, al though there were representatives of all branches of His Majesty's Service present. The reputation of the Melbourne larrikin was world wide, the larrikin being the fore runner of the hooligan. Law and education had failed to reform those larrikins, and at last some of the citizens hit on the method of forming cadet corps, which had proved to be a conspicuous success, and larrikinism was now dead; the streets of Melbourne knew it no more as a real source of terror. The people of Australia were neither militarist nor undemocratic, but they believed that the physical and moral training to be obtained from the cadet corps ought not to be lost to the nation. He sincerely hoped that the pressure of public opinion would induce the Government to alter the present form of the Bill, and put it back into its original shape.
Amendment proposed to the Bill—
"In page 4, line 9. to leave out from the word clubs' to the end of paragraph (f)."—(Sir Henry Craik.)
Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out to the second word 'in,' in page 4, line 11, stand part of the Bill.
MR. HALDANEsaid the House had listened to a speech of genuine earnestness
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which contained a good deal of eloquence from the hon. Gentleman who moved the Amendment and they had also listened to a technical speech from the seconder. These speeches in support of the Amendment showed what strong feeling there was in one direction upon this question; but it was not the only direction in which there was strong feeling. The duty of a War Minister in charge of a Bill of this sort was a very difficult one. A War Minister subjected to two such cross fires had only one course to fall back upon, and that was to consider the matter on its merits from the point of view of the organisation of the Army. In the first place, they did not want for the officers of the Army the training of children, but of men. He had made the most close and careful inquiry from those responsible for the Committee which had been referred to, and they told him that really boys under sixteen were of little or no use for the particular purpose; but there was a great distinction between the State aided schools and those great public schools where cadet corps had existed for a great number of years. The type of boy he wanted was the type between sixteen and eighteen, about the time when the public school boy proceeded to the University.
SIR HENRY CRAIK: Did not the Committee recommend the training of these boys between fifteen and sixteen years of age?
MR HALDANEsaid he was informed by those who were responsible that the Committee thought that the question was immaterial to their deliberations. What they required was not to disturb the old state of things, but he was anxious to make it clear that what they wanted as such material as should be sufficient for the reserve of officer. It might well be true that some of the corps which had been mentioned not only did not lead to the diffusion of a spirit of militarism, but wore excellent things in themselves. Boys' brigades were splendid things, and many of them wished to encourage them in every way in the good work they did and to teach the young idea even from eleven to twelve how to shoot. But these things were outside the province upon which he could justify the expenditure of public money. He had an extremely limited amount of money to

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dispose of, and he did not intend to spend it on boys' brigades.
SIR HENRY CRAIK: I never said anything about boys' brigades.
MR. HALDANEpointed out that the hon. Gentleman had referred to cadet corps, the age of the members of which went down to thirteen or fourteen and even to eleven or ten. That question was one which emphatically belonged to the department of education. Inquiry taught him that except in so far as it was expedient not to disturb the state of things in the great secondary private schools, he was not really much concerned with boys under sixteen. What was the situation at present? The Government did not give grants of money to cadet corps; they gave ammunition and arms to the uniformed corps. Of these there were some 11,000. He laid great stress upon this, because it was from thorn that he hoped to get material for the reserve of officers. These organisations in the great schools would give him what he wanted for the reserve of officers; but it did not in the least follow that he would get what he wanted by going to another class of school, and encouraging the formation of cadet corps consisting of boys under sixteen years of ago. He would be travelling wholly outside the region of the War Office into the department of education—outside anything which could be of practical use to him—if he were to propose to earmark financial assistance for boys under sixteen in the State-aided schools. What he was concerned to do was at least not to preclude himself from supporting the cadet corps in the great private schools. Those were the bodies on which he drew, and was likely to draw. The duty of developing military training in the elementary schools was one he declined to assume. It was a matter which be longed to the field of education, and to the field of education he left it.
MR. WYNDHAMsaid the right hon. Gentleman had stated that the contact between his Bill and education was merely accidental, that it touched education at one point—by those provisions which he hoped would enable him to obtain a reserve of officers. But the intervention of certain hon. Members in the matter was not accidental, but intentional. Their
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view was that drill was an injury to the young.
MR. HALDANE: They are content to help me to get my reserve of officers. They say take them from boys over sixteen.
MR. WYNDHAMsaid that would not do. They were not merely discussing the right hon. Gentleman's reserve of officers; they were discussing whether it was well or ill that in the course of education in schools some form of military training should be given to the young. Why had the right hon. Gentle man chosen the age of sixteen? He knew perfectly well that he had swept out of the Bill and debarred from any such encouragement as might have been obtained under it all the public elementary schools and all the intermediate schools in the country. Whatever might be the reasons of the right hon. Gentleman for yielding to pressure, those who brought it to bear considered it a mistake that the young should be brought into contact at a plastic age with anything that might stir their sympathies for a military career. The right hon. Gentleman was deliberately inventing a class distinction. Youths attending schools of a certain character were to have their minds impressed with military aspirations and to receive training; and the rest of the nation, attending public elementary schools and inter mediate schools, were to be put in a different class. They were to have a kind of Greek Republic in which there was to be a class of soldiers and another class composed of those engaged in industrial occupations. That was the suggestion, and he thought the House ought to pause before it accepted it. It was the fact that the sons of artisans and those engaged in industry did, as a rule, leave school earlier than the sons of the upper class. Therefore, if a universal rule of sixteen were made, the sons of one class would be taught a certain amount of drill, while the sons of the other class would not be taught drill at all, a class distinction being thus made—-one class being brought up with military tendencies and the other being debarred in youth from learning anything but industrialism. From the purely educational point of view it was held by many educational authorities that the great danger of the industrial age was not only

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to the manhood of the country, but to the youth of the country who were brought up in a narrow groove. We were living in an age of competitive commercialism, but that was only a reason for trying to broaden the lives of the youths of the country and not to allow them to be narrowed into the industrial groove. Why did we teach children to sing the musical stave or freehand drawing? In order to give them education and to draw them out of the narrow groove of industrialism. What would the hon. Member say if he was told he must not teach children to sing or draw lest they should be impregnated with the artistic temperament? To tell the children of what were sometimes called the lower classes that they only were to be cut off from the stimulating appeal to patriotism was a mistake, and he earnestly hoped the House would not consider the question within the narrow limits laid down by the Secretary of State. It was a great national question, and a great educational question. For his part, he thought these associations could not direct their efforts better than by giving some slight assistance, in providing drill-sergeants and miniature rifles, to widen the lives of children in elementary schools, to stir patriotism in their breasts, and to make men of them, instead of little machines to grow up into big machines.
MR. BENNETTsaid that he would oppose the Amendment with the greatest pleasure. There were many reasons for offering resistance to any proposals for foisting military training on children of tender years. He wished to point out, however, in passing, that the alleged distinction between the son of, say, an artisan and the son of a rich man taught at a public school was quite unreal. The artisan's boy at seventeen could, of course, if he wished for military experience, join his local Volunteer corps, and would possess exactly the same privilege, in fact an even higher one than the public school boy of the same age who was serving in his cadet corps. The majority of hon. Members on his side of the House would, he thought, agree that military training tended to produce a very undesirable spirit amongst young boys. He did not like the thought of very young children
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being continually associated through drills and firing exercises with the idea of human slaughter in one form or another. Many hon. Members were convinced that the introduction of military training into the schools of the country was an indirect encouragement to the idea of national conscription. That theory might be seen in a crystallised shape on the board hung up in Victoria Street. "The National Service League, with which is incorporated the Lads' Drill Association." He would, however, chiefly confine himself that evening to some more prosaic arguments than that based on a conscientious dislike of militarism. He was utterly opposed to the military training of young boys because such training was quite futile and provided no real asset of any military value. If corroboration was sought elsewhere, let hon. Members reflect that France, which possessed what was probably the most efficient army and military system in the world, had altogether discarded the bataillons scolaires. The French had come to realise what he trusted we should realise also, that these toy regiments of small boys were of no earthly use to the State. As to the military drill, it was well known that our drill was perpetually being altered. The manual exercise of their boyhood soldiering had been improved almost out of existence; and the simplest company movements were very different now from what they were when hon. Members served in cadet corps. Would any real benefit accrue to the country in any time of national stress and peril, because so many hundreds of thousands of her citizens had in their childhood acquired the beggarly elements of a system of drill long since obsolete? Further, the proposed drills and firing exercises involved very often a sheer waste of school time. While the nation's ideals of education were so imperfect, no Liberal, at any rate, he felt sure, could desire to see any hours which should be devoted to the intellectual curriculum of the school given up to square drill or musketry. Again, another ground for opposing the Amendment arose from the expense involved. The military training of cadet corps in our national schools meant the grants of rifles, ammunition, rifle ranges, and instructors. Musketry instruction could not fairly or reasonably be demanded amongst the qualifications of a national schoolmaster. The Government was

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pledged to economy, and could not afford to spend public money on such wholly subsidiary and somewhat ridiculous organisations. Some hon. Members had experienced some difficulty in securing a second suit of clothes for the Territorial Forces; they had been threatened with the loss of their regular adjutants and the diminution of the number of their regular drill instructors. These disadvantages had been threatened on the ground—a very legitimate ground—of economy. That being so, he protested against any grants of the taxpayers' money being assigned to corps and battalions of what one of our Colonial visitors recently described as "kiddy soldiers." Finally, no pledge of service was exacted or could be exacted from such boys; indeed he felt that even the older boys who won Certificate A or, later on still, Certificate B would really be receiving public grants without any definite under taking on their part to render military service in return. His own experience, too, had taught him that the existence of cadet corps did not necessarily encourage young men to join Volunteer and Militia battalions later on. Quite the contrary in many cases. At Oxford and, he was informed, at Cambridge too, one of the commonest excuses for shirking military duties in the Volunteer battalions was that the undergraduate alleged that he had had quite enough drill at school. As to rifle clubs an age limit was desirable not only for the younger members, but the older ones. He did not think it right that any public money should be given to any member of a rifle club who was by age quite unfitted to undertake any kind of military service Nor indeed was he, as a keen Volunteer and anxious to do his best for the Territorial Army, very deeply enamoured of rifle clubs. He greatly feared that; the good-fellowship, pot hunting and, above all, the easy terms of service might lead many young men to devote their attention exclusively to rifle clubs in preference to the more arduous and infinitely more valuable conditions of service in the Territorial Force. The Bill was getting better and better day by day as various excrescences were lopped off, and he for one could wish that it was wholly free from any maintenance or fostering of the cadet corps system, which he regarded as not only injurious to the boys, but useless to the State.
MR F. E. SMITH: said that as the text of his observations on the Amendment he desired to take a speech of the hon. and gallant Member for the Abercromby division of Liverpool, made some four or five years ago, when he said—
"I myself, speaking as a Member of Parliament, with a scat to lose, say openly that I consider it extremely desirable and obligatory that every male in this country should be trained to arms. I also believe that five-sixths of the people of this country would welcome such a proposition."
He accepted in its entirety that simple statement of the attitude of his hon. and gallant friend at that time, and he would invite the House to welcome the opportunity which was afforded by the Amendment of deciding what was the best method of carrying into effect those aspirations, which, be it noted, were to some extent shared by the right hon. Gentleman the Minister for War. Here they were struck by one of the most astonishing phenomena in reference to the position of the right hon. Gentleman in regard to the arguments with which those on his side of the House commended the Amendment of his hon. friend. It was true that the hon. Gentleman had spoken in one part of his speech of the spirit of militarism. The hon. Member for Salford, who sat behind the right hon. Gentleman, had a perfectly clear idea of what was meant by the spirit of militarism. He did not know whether the right lion. Gentleman the Minister for War had an equally clear idea of what was meant, when he spoke with reprobation of the spirit of militarism. Though he had spoken of the spirit of militarism with contempt, yet the Minister for War had gone round the country and presented to one Volunteer corps after another the prizes which had been won, and at the same time he had expressed an ardent desire that the nation should "spring to arms." Was it in a spirit of Quakerism that they were to spring to arms? Did the right hon. Gentleman or did he not wish under the stimulating influence of his eloquence, and of his example, for aught he knew, the nation to spring to arms. He presumed, when the right hon. Gentleman asked his countrymen to take upon themselves the burden of defending the country in the last resort, it was really his view that the position

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of this country, having regard to international complications, might well prove to be such that it would be necessary for the safety of the realm that every adult male should, in the last report, be able to defend it. If that was not the view of the right hon. Gentleman, why should he indulge in mischievous utterances, crying of "springing to arms"? Why should he spread the poison of the doctrine of militarism? Why should he not rather repress it? But that was not what the War Minister was doing, and that was not what the Bill was doing. If it was a wrong thing to foster the spirit of militarism, if the hon. Gentle man the Member for Salford, who made unsuccessful efforts to conceal his disgust at the speeches of the Secretary for War, thought that was the right spirit, then let them limit the doctrine of militarism in other ways than by merely saying that it should nut be applied to boys of fourteen or sixteen years of age. He had studied various periods of human life with as much care as most men, and he was utterly unable to discover what was the magic about the age of sixteen. What was the difference between sixteen and seventeen, considering it from the point of view of this question? Of course, there was no distinction between those two ages. He always listened to the hon. Gentleman with respect when he made demands on the patience of the House, but lot him remind the hon. Gentleman that in an earlier part of the debate he had said that if a foreign invader approached our shores, "a million bayonets would flash in the sun." What an inspiring thought —a million bayonets flashing in the sun, in an age of artillery, and flashed by people who had never been taught to handle a gun? It was in these circum- stances that the right hon. Gentle man went to Volunteer meetings like another Peter the Hermit, bidding the nation to give him troops for a great European war, [" No, no."] Lot them have an understanding. Was there or was there not a desire on the part of the right hon. Gentleman that we should have in England a nation ready to spring to arms? That was a simple question. Was that the wish of hon. Gentlemen opposite or was it not their wish? He had not observed that anybody had come forward to contradict him when he had referred to the right hon. Gentleman
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as another Peter the Hermit, exhorting the country, and necessarily hon. Gentle men opposite, to rally in support of his contention that the nation should be ready to spring to arms. At the time when the Bill was drafted the right hon. Gentleman held the view that the pecuniary support which he was now determined to withhold ought to be given to cadet corps without reference to the age of sixteen; it was not suggested that the right hon. Gentleman when the Bill was drafted did not consider the point. What were the representations which changed the views of the right hon. Gentleman? Were they military representations? That was not alleged. Was it the argument of an expert that the right hon. Gentleman would not get value for his money, which was the only argument that he had laid before the House that night? No, the arguments were the arguments of the hon. Members for Salford, Haggerston, and Falkirk Burghs, who believed that the whole spirit of militarism was injurious to the country. [MINISTERIAL cheers.] Yes, that was the view. They had got the argument in the open now—was it the argument of the right hon. Gentleman the responsible Minister for the armed forces of the Crown? The House knew that it was not. But from what quarter did the representations proceed? The right hon. Gentleman first became conscious that he was not going to get value for his money when a deputation approached him of Members who were convinced that he would not get value for any money spent for this purpose. In the words of Mr. Deakin—
"If you want a community which realises what war is, you must go to the community in which every household shares the risk of war."
On that side of the House they were not afraid to face that prospect. They could all fill some place in the great scheme which was open to them under this Amendment, and even the hon. Member for Salford might be employed in a non-belligerent capacity, giving lectures on patriotism to the children of the soldiers.
SIR W. J. COLLINSagreed that it was undesirable to draw a distinction in this matter between schools receiving a Parliamentary grant and those schools ordinarily called public

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schools. He urged the right hon. Gentle man to consider the propriety of applying this proviso impartially to all types of schools. He made that appeal mainly on educational grounds. It was said that the Bill was a bulwark against conscription. Let them not indirectly put compulsion on children of school age by giving official sanction to military drill for them and voting public money for stimulating and fostering cadet corps. He objected to the proposal on educational grounds because it was cultivating premature specialisation, and those who were acquainted with school life and higher education knew the danger of too early specialisation in our schools. Six teen was a sufficiently early age for specialisation, whether for a soldier or for any other profession. He was strongly in favour of physical exercises. But esprit de corps was promoted in the cricket field and the football field; while the exercises of the swimming bath and the gymnasium were far better and less mechanical than drill with a rifle. The late Sir Joshua Fitch in one of his pamphlets said that the handling of a rifle, forming fours, and preparing to receive cavalry were no necessary part of a good system of corporeal drill, and were often advocated with the ulterior political object of encouraging the martial spirit amongst boys. At the Albert Hall the Prime Minister said—
"It is vain to seek peace if you do not also ensure it."
Was it ensuing peace to teach boys of thirteen or fourteen exercises of a military character? He would urge upon the Secretary of State for War that the pathway alike of reality and progress was the pathway of peace. The time was opportune for showing our sincerity in regard to this question. At the Hague Conference the nations were
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now represented in larger numbers than on any previous occasion. He ventured to think that we should be giving proof of the sincerity of the aspirations ex pressed by our representatives at the Conference if we showed that in regard to boys of fourteen and fifteen we did not desire to stimulate the spirit of militarism in them.
MR. BYLESwho was greeted with laughter and cries of "Oh!" said it seemed to him that he was received with a certain amount of derision. Did anybody in the House suppose that he was ashamed of his opinions on war? If they did they would find that they were mistaken. This he believed was the only time during the whole of the debates on the Territorial Forces Bill at which the anti-military party in the House had been able to make any protest. [An HON. MEMBER: They have not been here at all.] He wished to enter his protest in the strongest possible way against teaching children the art of war. War was murder; war was a horrible thing, and it ought to be hated and avoided. It was the negation of every thing good and beautiful. If it was ever necessary, it was a necessary evil. The purity and loveliness of youth ought to be a stranger to this as to many other forms of human evil. He wondered who of his hon. colleagues on that and the other side of the House would wish his own prattling boy of fourteen or fifteen, holding a miniature rifle in his hand, to be taught that when he was bigger he should have a bigger rifle and learn to use it in order that he might shoot and kill his fellow-man. He did not believe that anyone would like his own son to be imbued with those ideas. The truth was that a student was one

259
type of humanity, and a soldier was another. For his part, he was sorry to see the references in the Bill to the universities and the schools. The tramp of armed troops through the peaceful haunts of learning was not, to his mind, a pleasant vision to contemplate. He was surprised that these proposals to associate scholarship with militarism should have been brought forward by his right hon. friend, who, after all, was a civilian and a scholar, and one who had drank deep at the wells of literature and learning. The right hon. Gentleman well knew that scholarship made for inter national fellowship and brotherhood, while militarism always made for mutual suspicion and hatred, and was the denial of the fellowship and brotherhood of man. At the Hague Conference, now in session, the representatives of forty nations were assembled trying to put an end to, or, at any rate, to put some limitation to, the evils of war which, he supposed, every Member of this House, even the postprandial scoffers whom he saw before him [Cries of "Order" and "Withdraw"] wished to limit. Was that a moment when England, the pioneer in civilisation, with a Liberal Government, should be forming schoolboy brigades and cadet corps, and carrying even to the children of the land the knowledge and the love of war?
MR. A. J. BALFOURsaid he was sure the hon. Gentleman had spoken from the depths of his heart; he had given expression to a ruling principle in his life, and doubtless felt that he was acting in a missionary spirit in the interest of peace. In that interest they were all agreed. There was not a man in the House, to whatever Party he belonged, who did not think, in the first place, that war was in itself, as the hon.
260
Gentleman truly said, a horrible thing, and that the interests of this country, quite apart from the horrors of war in the abstract and the moral question, were all for peace. In so far as that was the case, they were all of the hon. Gentleman's school. But let them consider the general propositions which the hon. Gentleman had advanced, and the particular conclusion which he had deduced from them. The subject they were now discussing was whether boys at school ought or ought not to be taught the elements of drill if the schoolmaster desired it, and if the county council wished to spend the money in promoting it. There was no compulsion in the Amendment of his hon., friend. j No county council, if the Amendment was carried, would be required to spend a shilling in the cause of military drill, and no schoolmaster if he thought it inimical to the general interests of education would be obliged to accept a shilling from the county council. The Amendment gave liberty both to the giver of money and the receiver; it compelled money neither to be offered nor to be received. But supposing money was offered and received, did all the ill consequences which the hon. Gentleman had conjured up really follow? The hon. Gentleman pictured to himself the British schoolboy as a peaceful and innocent animal— [Labour cries of dissent, and an HON. MEMBER: Practically]—well, practically, to whom the very thought of strife was detestable, who was a natural lover of peace, and whom a flagitious Government, aided by an unscrupulous Opposition, were going to indoctrinate with these prejudices in favour of bitterness and strife. He ventured to say that the hon. Gentleman's picture of the ordinary British schoolboy was drawn in rather

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too angelic colours; those of them who had been at school did not remember to, have seen angelic wings springing from the shoulders of their school-fellows, and, while there was not that absolute innocence waiting to be corrupted by the Government existing in either our elementary or our public schools, there was really nothing in the Amendment which suggested to a schoolboy otherwise peaceably inclined that he should hence forth devote himself to the reckless and unnecessary destruction of his follow men. The hon. Member for West St. Pancras seemed to have a strong leaning towards athletics as well as a strong objection to the Amendment, but he supposed he had in his mind the old, he believed the apocryphal, adage that the battle of Waterloo was won on the playing fields of Eton. He did not think it could be undue specialisation to say that any boy who desired instead of learning cricket, or in addition to learning it, to learn the use of the ride, might be more competent to win some battle other than that of which the Duke of Wellington talked. And when the hon. Gentleman talked of over specialisation, and compared a boy of fourteen or fifteen learning how to use the rifle with a boy of fourteen or fifteen being prematurely indoctrinated into the mysteries of the profession of which the hon. Gentleman himself was so great an ornament, he must have felt that the parallel was not a very close one. He did not think it could be described as over specialisation. But could they seriously take the view of the hon. Gentleman and think that this was going to promote a military spirit? What did they want a Territorial Army for? As he understood the views of the Secretary for War, he desired among other things to make the land of this country and the territories of the
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British Empire absolutely secure. Neither he nor anybody on that side was in favour of a policy of conquest and adventure' even were the possibility of conquest and adventure open to any Government in this country. The only military interest we had was the interest of self-defence, and the Amendment was directed to teaching a boy of under sixteen that he might have to defend himself. The Amendment would not promote the military spirit. What it would promote was the spirit of the man who was ready to do his share in rendering the Empire of which he was a citizen secure against foreign attack. There was no possibility of any Government under any circum stances arising in this country which would be so mad as to desire to enter upon a reckless and unnecessary war. [LABOUR cries of "The Transvaal War."] Hon. Gentlemen below the gangway appeared to think that the South African War was reckless and unnecessary. [MINISTERIAL cheers and OPPOSITION cries of "Asquith."] Did hon. Gentlemen below the gangway think that that war was unnecessary? [LABOUR cries of "Yes."] He need hardly say that that was not the opinion of the hon. Gentlemen who sit on the Opposition side of the House, nor was it the opinion of the majority of the people. He never suggested that in future the whole of the country would be unanimous as to whether a war was wise or unwise; but he did say that no Government was likely to exist which would go into a war believing it to be unnecessary and solely for the purpose of aggression or conquest. He appealed to the Government to resist to the utmost of their ability the heresy—for it was nothing else—that to teach boys and men how to handle in the interest of national defence those weapons by which alone national defence, in the

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last resort, could be accomplished, was to promote the military spirit, if the military spirit was the spirit of aggression, and to assert that it was but to enable the people of this country to prepare to offer a successful resistance to any invasion that might be organised by a foreign Power of their rights, their liberties, and their territories.
MAJOR SEELYsaid he most earnestly hoped that the Government would resist the Amendment, and precisely for the reasons urged by the hon. Gentleman who moved it. He believed it was the duty of every man to fit himself to defend his country, and he believed that nine-tenths of the people were willing to do so. But the worst way to proceed was to force the children to do that which they themselves were too cowardly to under take. He was convinced they could procure a sufficient number of persons voluntarily to undertake to defend the country without resorting to the policy of the Amendment; and, indeed, by forcing children under the age of sixteen to go through military exercises was to turn them against the Army, and so far from adding to the military strength of the nation they would greatly diminish it. [OPPOSITION cries of "There is no forcing."] It had been suggested by his right hon. friend the President of the Local Government Board that military ardour was like measles, and that a man only got it once in his life and when he did he got it strongly. Therefore if they forced children—
Sir HENRY CRAIK: My Amendment does not involve any force.
MAJOR SEELYsaid he quite understood that, but if his hon. friend had borne with him for one moment he should have
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pointed out why he had used the word "force." What he was saying was that if they forced children to go through military exercises they were much less likely to get them to serve their country in the Army. Now he would come to the argument of the hon. Gentleman that there was no compulsion. Surely that was a ridiculous doctrine. If military exercises were laid down in the school curriculum by the school authorities, it was absurd to say the children would not. be forced to undertake them. If the children were forced to undertake exercises of that kind, it would tend to decrease the efficiency of the Army, because by such a course the military ardour of the lads would be diminished and their fighting efficiency in after years lessened. He disagreed with those who thought that when we entered the Hague Conference we should gain anything by saying we would not allow our children to learn the use of arms, because we were at the present moment proposing to maintain a larger expeditionary force than we ever had before. That fact cut the ground from under the feet of those who thought it wise to pursue an anti-military policy because we were going to maintain a far larger Regular Army than any country in the world. He suggested, therefore, that it was useless, in view of the increase of the expeditionary force, to urge the fact that we refused to allow our children to receive military training. He joined with those who asked that they should not force upon the children that which the parents had not yet accepted. He thought that in so far as they forced a boy to do what he did not want to do they would detract from his efficiency in. time of war, because he would not wish to go through the military exercises which he had been compelled to practise

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in his youth He should therefore resist the Amendment.
SIR BRAMPTON GURDONobserved that to make drill a part of school work was the surest way of crushing out the military spirit of the youth of the country. He remembered when he was at school a long time ago a sergeant used to come and drill the boys, who hated the very sight of him, and such a course tended to discourage lads from thinking of a military career. When a man grow up he would not go back to the work which he had to under take at school, and if the system now suggested was carried on for ten years they would not be able to get a single recruit for the Army from the schools which were subject to it. The only thing they could teach boys in schools was barrack-square drill, and all our wars had shown us that that was precisely what we did not want. As Sir John Gorst had said, a good soldier was far more likely to be made by such games as cricket and football than by drill of this kind. In those games the boys wore taught to act independently but with devotion to the interests of the side to which they belonged and affection for their captain. For himself he had been brought up in an atmosphere of game and shooting, and in the early days of Wimbledon he was a very keen rifle
shot. Although he was apprehensive of the result of a policy of putting firearms into the hands of children, he might say that if Lord Roberts's scheme of universal military training were carried out, there would be this compensation. One of the greatest evils of the present day was the over preservation of game for the purpose of supplying the battues which were now the fashion. He was not sure that our forefathers were not happier when, after a day's sport, they brought home a partridge and a couple of snipe, than the cockney sportsman who came down from London and whose only object was not to kill but to "muddle down" more pheasants than other people in the neighbourhood did. If Lord Roberts's plan was carried out, the present over preservation of game would cease, because it would be impossible if they turned out from the schools every year a healthy crop of young poachers.
And, it being half-past Ten of the clock, Mr. SPEAKER proceeded, pursuant to the Order of the House of 6th May, to put the Question on the Amendment; already proposed from the Chair.
Question put "That the words proposed to be left out, to the second word 'in,' in page 4, line 11, stand part of the Bill."
The House divided: Ayes, 304; Noes, 114. (Division List No. 237.)

AYES.

Abraham, William (Rhondda)

Barker, John

Bethell, T. R. (Essex, Maldon)

Acland, Francis Dyke

Barlow, John Emmott (Som'rs't

Billson, Alfred

Ainsworth, John Stirling

Barlow, Percy (Bedford)

Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine

Alden, Percy

Barnes, G. N.

Black, Arthur W.

Allen, A. Acland (Christchurch)

Barran, Rowland Hirst

Bowerman, C.W.

Allen, Charles P. (Stroud)

Barry.RedmondJ. (Tyrone,N.)

Brace, William

Armitage, R.

Beale, W. P.

Bramsdon, T. A.

Ashton, Thomas Gair

Beauchamp, E.

Branch, James

Asquith, Rt. Hn. Herbert Henry

Bell, Richard

Brigg, John

Astbury, John Meir

Bellairs, Carlyon

Bright, J. A.

Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth)

Bennett, E. N.

Brooke, Stopford

Baker, Joseph A. (Finsbury,E.)

Berridge, T. H. D.

Brunner.J.F.L. (Lanes., Leigh)

Balfour, Robert (Lanark)

Bertram, Julius

Brunner.Rt.Hn.Sir J.T.(Chesh.

Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight)

Bethell,Sir J. H. (Essex.Romf'd

Bryce, J. Annan

Buchanan. Thomas Ryburn

Hemmerde, Edward George

Murray, James

Buckmaster, Stanley O.

Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

Myer, Horatio

Burns, Rt. Hon. John

Henderson, J.M.( Aberdeen, W.)

Napier. T. B.

Burt. Rt. Hon. Thomas

Henry, Charles S.

Newnes, F. (Notts, Bassetlaw)

Buxton,Rt. Hn.Sydney Charles

Herbert,Colonel Ivor (Mon., S.)

Newnes, Sir George (Swansea)

Byles, William Pollard

Herbert, T. Arnold (Wycombe)

Nicholls, George

Cairna, Thomas

Higham, John Sharp

Nicholson,Charles N.(Doncast'r

Cameron, Robert

Hobart, Sir Robert

Norton, Capt. Cecil William

Cambpell-Bannerman, Sir H.

Hobhouse. Charles E. H.

Nussey, Thomas Willans

Carr-Gomm, H. W.

Hodge, John

Nuttall, Harry

Causton,Rt. Hn. Richard Knight

Holden, E. Hopkinson

O'Grady, J.

Cawley, Sir Frederick

Holland, Sir William Henry

Parker, James (Halifax)

Channing, Sir Francis Allston

Holt, Richard Dinning

Partington, Oswald

Cheetham, John Frederick

Horniman, Emslie John

Pearce, William (Limehouse)

Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R.

Horridge, Thomas Gardner

Pearson, Sir W. D. (Colchester)

Cleland, J. W.

Howard, Hon. Geoffrey

Philipps,Col.Ivor (S'thampton)

Clough, William

Hudson, Walter

Philipps,J.Wynford( Pembroke

Coats,Sir T.Glen (Renfrew, W.)

Hyde, Clarendon

Philipps, Owen C. (Pembroke)

Cobbold, Felix Thornley

Idris, T. H. W.

Pickersgill, Edward Hare

Collins, Stephen (Lambeth)

Isaacs, Rufus Daniel

Pirie, Duncan V.

Collins,SirWm.J.(S.Pancras,W

Jackson, R. S.

Pollard. Dr.

Cooper, G. J.

Jenkins, J.

Price, C. R.(Edinburgh.Central)

Corbett,C.H.(Sussex,E.Gr'st'd)

Johnson, John (Gateshead)

Price,Robert John (Norfolk, E.

Cory, Clifford John

Johnson, W. (Nuneaton)

Priestley, Arthur (Grantham)

Cotton, Sir H. J. S.

Jones,Sir D. Brynmor(Swansea)

Rainy, A. Rolland

Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth)

Jones, Leif (Appleby)

Rea, Russell (Gloucester)

Cremer, William Randal

Jones,William (Carnarvonshire)

Rea, Walter Russell (Scarboro'

Crombie, John William

Jowett, F. W.

Richards,Thomas (W.Monm'th

Crosfield, A. H.

Kearley, Hudson E.

Richards, T. F. (Wolverh'mpt'n

Crossley, William J.

Kekewich, Sir George

Rickett, J. Compton

Dalziel, James Henry

King, Alfred John (Knutsford)

Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)

Davies, Ellis William (Eifion)

Kitson, Rt. Hon. Sir James

Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)

Davies, M. Vaughan- (Cardigan

Laidlaw, Robert

Robertson.Rt.Hn. E. (Dundee)

Davies, Timothy (Fulham)

Lamb, Edmund G (Leominster)

Robertson,Sir G.Scott (Bradf'd

Dewar, Arthur (Edinburgh, S.)

Lambert, George

Robson, Sir William Snowdon

Dickinson,W.H.(St. Pancras,N.

Lamont, Norman

Rogers. F. E. Newman

Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

Layland-Barratt, Francis

Rose, Charles Day

Duncan,C. (Barrow-in-Furness)

Lea,Hugh Cecil (St. Pancras,E.

Rowlands, J.

Dunne,Major E.Martin (Wals'll

Leese,Sir Joseph F.(Accrington

Russell, T. W.

Edwards, Clement (Denbigh)

Lehmann, R. C

Rutherford, V. H. (Brentford)

Edwards, Frank (Radnor)

Lever, A.Levy (Essex,Harwich

Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)

Elibank, Master of

Lever, W.H. (Cheshire, Wirral)

Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel)

Ellis, Rt. Hon. John Edward

Levy, Maurice

Scarisbrick, T. T. L.

Erskine, David C

Lewis, John Herbert

Schwann, C. Duncan (Hyde)

Esslemont, George Birnie

Lloyd-George, Rt. Hon. David

Schwann, Sir C.E.(Manchester)

Evans, Samuel T.

Lough, Thomas

Scott,A.H.(Ashton under Lyne

Eve, Harry Trelawney

Lupton, Arnold

Sears, J. E.

Everett, R. Lacey

Luttrell, Hugh Fownes

Seely, Major J. B.

Fenwick, Charles

Lyell, Charles Henry

Shaw, Rt.Hn. T. (Hawick B.)

Ferens, T. R.

Macdonald,J.M.(Falkirk B'ghs

Sherwell, Arthur James

Fiennes, Hon. Eustace

Mackarness. Frederic C.

Shipman, Dr. John G.

Findlay, Alexander

Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.

Simon, John Allsebrook

Foster, Rt. Hon. Sir Walter

M'Callum, John M.

Sinclair. Rt. Hon. John

Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

M'Crae, George

Smeaton. Donald Mackenzie

Fuller, John Michael F.

M'Kenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald

Soames, Arthur Wellesley

Fullerton, Hugh

M'Laren, H. D. (Stafford, W.)

Soares, Ernest.J.

Gladstone,Rt. Hn.Herbert John

M'Micking, Major G.

Spicer, Sir Albert

Glover, Thomas

Maddison. Frederic

Stanger. H. Y.

Goddard, Daniel Ford

Mallet, Charles E.

Stanley,Hon. A. Lyulph(Chesh.)

Grant, Corrie

Manfield, Harry (Northants)

Steadman. W. C.

Greenwood, G. (Peterborough)

Markham, Arthur Basil

Stewart. Halley (Greenock)

Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward

Marks,G.Croydon (Launceston)

Stewart-Smith. D. (Kendal)

Griffiths. Ellis J.

Marnham, F. J.

Strachey. Sir Edward

Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill

Massie. J.

Straus. B. S. (Mile End)

Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

Menzies, Walter

Strauss. E. A. (Abingdon)

Haldane, Rt. Hon. Richard B.

Micklem, Nathaniel

Summerbell. T.

Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Lewis

Molteno, Percy Alport

Sutherland, J. E.

Harmsworth, Cecil B. (Worc'r)

Mond, A.

Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth)

Harmsworth.R.L. (Caithn'ss-sh

Money, L. G. Chiozza

Taylor. John W. (Durham)

Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale)

Montagu, E. S.

Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)

Harwood, George

Morgan, G. Hay (Cornwall)

Thomas,Abel (Carmarthen, E.)

Haworth, Arthur A.

Morgan, J.Lloyd (Carmarthen)

Thomas.Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.)

Hazel, Dr. A. E.

Morton, Alpheus Cleophas

Thomas,David Alfred (Merthyr)

268

269

Thomasson, Franklin

Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan)

Williamson, A.

Thompson,J.W.H. (Somerset.E

Wason, John Catheart (Orkney)

Wills, Arthur Walters

Thorne, William

Waterlow, D. S.

Wilson.Hn. C.H.W. (Hull, W.)

Tomkinson, James

Watt, Henry A.

Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R.

Torrance, Sir A. M.

Weir, James Galloway

Wilson, J. H. (Middlesbrough)

Toulmin, George

White, George (Norfolk)

Wilson, P. W. (St. Pancras, S.)

Trevelyan, Charles Philips

White, J. D.(Dumbartonshire)

Wilson. W. T. (Westhoughton)

Ure, Alexander

White, Luke (York, E. R.)

Winfrey, R.

Walker, H. De R. (Leicester)

Whitehead, Rowland

Wodehouse, Lord

Walton. Sir John L. (Leeds, S.)

Whitley, John Henry (Halifax)

Wood, T. M'Kinnon

Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

Whittaker, Sir Thomas Palmer

Yoxall, James Henry

Ward,John (Stoke upon Trent)

Wiles, Thomas

Ward.W. Dudley (Southampt'n

Wilkie. Alexander

TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr.Whiteley and Mr. J. A. Pease.

Wardle, George J.

Williams, J. (Glamorgan)

Waring. Walter

Williams,Llewelyn (Carmarth'n

Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.

Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)

NOES.

Acland-Hood,Rt.Hn.SirAlex.F.

Fardell, Sir T. George

O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens

Anson, Sir William Reynell

Fell, Arthur

Percy, Earl

Anstruther-Gray, Major

Fletcher, J. S.

Randles, Sir John Scurrah

Arkwright, John Stanhope

Forster, Henry William

Rawlinson.John Frederick Peel

Arnold-Forster,Rt, Hn. Hugh O.

Gardner,Col. Alan (Hereford,S.

Rees, J. D.

Ashley, W. W.

Gardner, Ernest (Berks, East)

Renton, Major Leslie

Aubrey-Fletcher,Rt. Hon.Sir H.

Gibbs, G. A. (Bristol, West)

Ridsdale, E. A.

Balcarres, Lord

Gretton, John

Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesal

Balfour,RtHn.A.J.(CityLond.)

Haddock, George R.

Salter, Arthur Clavell

Banbury, Sir FrederickGeorge

Hamilton, Marquess of

Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert

Barrie, H. T. (Londonderry,N.)

Hardy,Laurence (Kent,Ashford

Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

Beach,Hn. Michael HughHicks

Harris, Frederick Leverton

Seaverns, J. H.

Beckett, Hon. Gervase

Harrison-Broadley, H. B.

Sheffield,SirBerkeleyGeorge.D.

Bignold, Sir Arthur

Hervey,F.W.F.(BuryS.Edm'ds

Smith,F.E. (Liverpool,Walton)

Bowles, G. Stewart

Hill, Sir Clement (Shrewsbury)

Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)

Boyle, Sir Edward

Hills, J. W.

Starkey, John R.

Bridgeman, W. Clive

Houston, Robert Paterson

Stone, Sir Benjamin

Bodies, H. C.

Kennaway,Rt.Hon.SirJohn H.

Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

Butcher, Samuel Henry

Kenyon-Slaney, Rt. Hon. Col. VV.

Talbot, Rt.Hn.J.G. (Oxf'd Univ

Carlile, E. Mildred

Keswick, William

Tennant, H. J. (Berwickshire)

Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

Kincaid-Smith, Captain

Thomson,W. Mitchell-(Lanark)

Castlereagh, Viscount

King,SirHenrySeymour (Hull)

Thornton, Percy M.

Cave, George

Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm.

Tuke, Sir John Batty

Cavendish,Rt. Hon. VictorC.W.

Law, Andrew Bonar (Dulwich)

Valentia, Viscount

Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

Lee,ArthurH.(Hants., Fareham

Vincent, Col. Sir C. E. Howard

Cecil, Lord John P. Joicey-

Lockwood, Rt.Hn. Lt.Col. A.R.

Walker,Col.W.H. (Lancashire)

Cecil, Lord R. (Marylebone, E.)

Long,Col. Charles W.(Evesham

Walrond, Hon. Lionel

Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry

Long,Rt. Hn. Walter (Dublin,S

Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid)

Clark,George Smith (Belfast,N.

Lonsdale, John Brownlee

Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.)

Coates, E. Feetham (Lewisham

Lowe, Sir Francis William

Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred

Wilson,A. Stanley (York, E.R.)

Courthope, G. Loyd

MacIver, David (Liverpool)

Wortley, Rt, Hon. C.B. Stuart-

Craig,Charles Curtis(Antrim, S.

M'Calmont, Colonel James

Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

Craig,Captain James(Down,E.)

M'Iver,Sir Lewis(Edinburgh,W

Younger, George

Dalrymple, Viscount

Magnus, Sir Philip

Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.

Mason, James F. (Windsor)

TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Sir Henry Craik and Captain Baring.

Doughty, Sir George

Mildmay, Francis Bingham

Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

Morpeth, Viscount

Faber, George Denison (York)

Nicholson, Wm. G. (Petersfield

Faber, Capt. W.V. (Hants, W.)

Nield, Herbert

Mr. SPEAKER then proceeded successively to put forthwith the Questions upon any Amendments moved by the Government, of which notice had been given, which were necessary to dispose of the Business to be concluded.
Amendment proposed to the Bill—
"In page 4, line 38, at the beginning, to insert the words 'Subject to regulations under this Act.' "—(Mr. Secretary Haldane).
Question put, "That the Amendment be made."

The House divided: Ayes, 314; Noes, 105. (Division List No. 238.)

AYES.

Abraham, William (Rhondda)

Crooks, William

Isaacs, Rufus Daniel

Acland, Francis Dyke

Crosfield, A. H.

Jackson, R. S.

Ainsworth, John Stirling

Crossley, William J.

Jenkins, J.

Alden, Percy

Dalziel, James Henry

Johnson. John (Gateshead)

Allen,A. Acland (Christchurrh)

Davies, Ellis William (Eifion)

Johnson, W. (Nuneaton)

Allen, Charles P. (Stroud)

Davies, M. Vaughan- (Cardigan

Jomes,SirD. Brynmor(Swansea)

Armitage, R.

Davies, Timothy (Fulham)

Jones, Leif (Appleby)

Ashton, Thomas Gair

Dewar, Arthur (Edinburgh, S.)

Jones,William (Carnarvonshire

Asquith,Rt. Hon. HerbertHenry

Dickinson,W.H. (St.Pancras.N.

Jowett, F. W.

Astbury, John Meir

Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.

Kearley, Hudson E.

Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth)

Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

Kekewich, Sir George

Baker,Joseph A. (Finsbury, E.)

Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness

Kincaid-Smith, Captain

Balfour, Robert (Lanark)

Dunne,Major E.Martin(Walsall

King, Alfred John (Knutsford)

Baring,Godfrey (Isle of Wight)

Edwards, Clement (Denbigh)

Kitson. Rt. Hon. Sir James

Barker, John

Edward, Frank (Radnor)

Laidlaw, Robert

Barlow,JohnEmmott(Somerset

Elibank, Master of

Lamb. Edmund G. (Leominster

Barlow, Percy (Bedford)

Ellis, Rt, Hon. John Edward

Lambert, George

Barnes, G. N.

Erskine, David C.

Lamont, Norman

Barran, Rowland Hirst

Esslemont, George Birnie

Layland- Barratt, Francis

Barry, Redmond J.(Tyrone,N.)

Evans, Samuel T.

Lea, Hugh Cecil (St. Pancras, E.

Beale, W. P.

Eve, Harry Trelawney

Leese,Sir Joseph F.(Accrington

Beauchamp, E.

Everett, R. Lacey

Lehmann, R. C.

Bell, Richard

Fenwick, Charles

Lever,A. Levy (Essex,Harwich)

Bellairs, Carlyon

Ferens, T. R.

Lever, W. H.(Cheshire, Wirral)

Bennett, E. N.

Fiennes, Hon. Eustace

Levy, Maurice

Berridge, T. H. D.

Findlay, Alexander

Lewis, John Herbert

Bertram, Julius

Foster, Rt. Hon. Sir Walter

Lloyd-George, Rt. Hon. David

Bethell,SirJ.H. (Essex,Romf'rd

Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

Lough, Thomas

Bethell, T. R. (Essex, Maldon)

Fuller, John Michael F.

Lupton, Arnold

Billson, Alfred

Fullerton. Hugh

Luttrell, Hugh Fownes

Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine

Gardner,Col.Alan (Hereford, S.

Lyell, Charles Henry

Black, Arthur W.

Gladstone,Rt.Hn. Herbert John

Lynch, H. B.

Bowerman, C. W.

Glover, Thomas

Macdonald. J. R. (Leicester)

Brace, William

Goddard, Daniel Ford

Macdonald.J.M.(Falkirk B'ghs.

Bramsdon, T. A.

Grant, Corrie

Mackarness, Frederic C.

Branch, James

Greenwood, G. (Peterborough)

Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.

Brigg, John

Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward

M'Callum, John M.

Brodie, H. C.

Griffith, Ellis J.

M'Crae, George

Brooke, Stopford

Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill

M'Kenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald

Brunner,J.F. L. (Lanes.,Leigh)

Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

M'Laren, H. D. (Stafford, W.)

Brunner,RtHnSirJ.T (Cheshire

Haldane, Rt. Hon. Richard B.

M'Micking, Major G.

Bryce, J. Annan

Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Lewis

Maddison, Frederick

Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn

Harmsworth, Cecil B. (Worc'r)

Mallet, Charles E.

Buckmaster, Stanley O.

Harmsworth,R. L. (Caithn'ss-sh

Manfield, Harry (Northants)

Burns. Rt. Hon. John

Harvey. A. G. C. (Rochdale)

Markham, Arthur Basil

Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas

Harwood, George

Marks, G. Croydon(Launceston

Buxton,Rt. Hn.Sydney Charles

Haworth. Arthur A.

Marnham, F. J.

Byles, William Pollard

Hazel, Dr. A. E.

Massie, J.

Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.

Hemmerde, Edward George

Menzies, Walter

Carr-Gomm, H. W.

Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

Micklem, Nathaniel

Causton,Rt. Hn. RichardKnight

Henderson,J.M. (Aberdeen,W.)

Molteno, Perey Alport

Cawley, Sir Frederick

Henry, Charles S.

Mond. A.

Channing, Sir Francis Allston

Herbert, Colonel Ivor (Mon., S.

Money, L. G.Chiozza

Cheetham. John Frederick

Herbert, T. Arnold (Wycombe)

Montagu, E. S.

Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R.

Higham, John Sharp

Morgan, G. Hay (Cornwall)

Cleland, J. W.

Hobart, Sir Robert

Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen

Clough, William

Hobhouse, Charles E. H.

Morton, Alpheus Charles

Coats,Sir T.Glen (Renfrew, W.)

Hodge, John

Murray, James

Cobbold, Felix Thornley

Holden, E. Hopkinson

Myer, Horatio

Collins, Stephen (Lambeth)

Holland, Sir William Henry

Napier, T. B.

Collins,Sir Wm.J.(S.Pancras,W.

Holt, Richard Durning

Newnes, F. (Notts, Bassetlaw)

Cooper, G. J.

Wope, W.Bateman (Somerset,N

Newnes, Sir George (Swansea)

Corbett,CH (Sussex,E.Grinst'd

Horniman, Emslie John

Nicholls, George

Cory, Clifford John

Horridge, Thomas Gardner

Nicholson,Charles N.(D'ncast'r

Cotton, Sir H. J. S.

Howard, Hon. Geoffrey

Norton, Capt. Cecil William

Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth)

Hudson, Walter

Nussey, Thomas Willans

Cremer, William Randal

Hyde, Clarendon

Nuttall, Harry

Crombie, John William

Idris, T. H. W.

O'Grady, J.

272

273

Parker, James (Halifax)

Seaverns, J. H.

Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

Partington, Oswald

Seely, Major J. B.

Ward, John (Stoke upon Trent)

Pearce, William (Limehouse)

Shaw, Rt. Hon. T. (Hawick B.)

Ward, W.Dudley (Southampt'n

Pearson, Sir W. D. (Colchester)

Sherwell, Arthur James

Wardle, George J.

Philipps,Col.Ivor (S'thampton)

Shipman, Dr. John G.

Waring, Walter

Philipps, J.Wynford (Pembroke

Simon, John Allsebrook

Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.

Philipps, Owen C. (Pembroke)

Sinclair, Rt, Hon. John

Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan)

Pickersgill, Edward Hare

Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie

Wason,John Catheart (Orkney)

Pirie, Duncan V.

Soames, Arthur Wellesley

Waterlow, D. S.

Pollard, Dr.

Soares, Ernest J.

Watt, Henry A.

Price,C.E.(Edinburgh, Central)

Spicer, Sir Albert

Weir, James Galloway

Price,Robert John (Norfolk,E.)

Stanger, H. Y.

White, George (Norfolk)

Priestley. Arthur (Grantham)

Stanley,Hn. A. Lyulph (Chesh.)

White, J. D. (Dumbartonshire)

Rainy, A. Rolland

Steadman, W. C.

White, Luke (York. E.R.)

Rea, Russell (Gloucester)

Stewart, Halley (Greenock)

Whitehead, Rowland

Rea, Walter Russell (Scarboro')

Stewart-Smith D. (Kendal)

Whitley, John Henry (Halifax)

Rees, J. D.

Strachey, Sir Edward

Whittaker, Sir Thomas Palmer

Renton, Major Leslie

Straus, B. S. (Mile End)

Wiles, Thomas

Richards,Thomas|(W.Monm'th

Strauss, E. A. (Abingdon)

Wilkie, Alexander

Richards, T.F.(Wolverh'mpton

Summerbell, T.

Williams, J. (Glamorgan)

Rickett, J. Compton

Sutherland, J. E.

Williams, Llewelyn (Carmarth'n

Ridsdale, E. A.

Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth)

Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)

Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)

Taylor, John W. (Durham)

Williamson, A.

Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)

Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)

Wills, Arthur Walters

Robertson, Rt. Hn. E.(Dundee)

Tennant, H. J. (Berwickshire)

Wilson,Hn. C. H. W. (Hull, W.)

Robertson,Sir G.Scott(Bradf'd)

Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.)

Wilson, Henry J. (York, W.R.)

Robson, Sir William Snowdon

Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.)

Wilson, J. H. (Middlesbrough)

Rogers, F. E. Newman

Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr

Wilson, P. W. (St. Pancras. S.).

Rose, Charles Day

Thomasson, Franklin

Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton).

Rowlands, J.

Thompson,J.W.H.(Somerset,E.

Winfrey, R.

Russell, T. W.

Thorne. William

Wodehouse, Lord

Rutherford, V. H. (Brentford)

Tomkinson, James

Wood, T. M'Kinnon

Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)

Torrance, Sir A. M.

Yoxall, James Henry

Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel)

Toulmin, George

Scarisbrick, T. T. L.

Trevelyan, Charles Philips

TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr.Whiteley and Mr. J. A Pease.

Schwann, Sir C. E.(Manchester)

Ure, Alexander

Scott,A.H.(Ashton under Lyne

Walker, H. De R. (Leicester)

Sears, J. E.

Walton, Sir John L. (Leeds, S.)

NOES.

Anson, Sir William Reynell

Craig, Capt. James (Down, E.)

Long,Col.Charles W.(Evesham)

Anstruther-Gray, Major

Craik, Sir Henry

Long,Rt.Hn.Walter (Dublin,S.

Arkwright, John Stanhope

Dalrymple, Viscount

Lonsdale, John Brownlee

Ashley,W. W.

Doughty, Sir George

Lowe, Sir Francis William

Aubrey-Fletcher,Rt.Hn. Sir H.

Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred

Balcarres, Lord

Faber, George Denison (York)

MacIver, David (Liverpool)

Balfour,Rt Hn. A. J.(CityLond.

Faber, Capt. W. V. (Hants, W.)

M'Calmont, Colonel James

Banbury, Sir Frederick George

Fardell, Sir T. George

M'lver,Sir Lewis(EdnburghW.)

Baring,Capt.Hn.G (Winchester

Fell, Arthur

Magnus, Sir Philip

Barrie, H. T. (Londonderry,N.)

Fletcher, J. S.

Mason, James F. (Windsor)

Beach,Hn. Michael Hugh Hicks

Forster, Henry William

Mildmay, Francis Bingham

Beckett, Hon. Gervase

Gardner, Ernest (Berks, East)

Morpeth, Viscount

Bignold, Sir Arthur

Gibbs, G. A. (Bristol, West)

Nicholson, Wm. G. (Petersfield)

Bowles. G. Stewart

Gretton, John

Nield, Herbert

Boyle, Sir Edward

Haddock, George R.

O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens

Bridgeman, W. Clive

Hamilton, Marquess of

Pease,HerbertPike(Darlington)

Butcher, Samuel Henry

Hardy,Laurence (Kent,Ashford

Percy, Earl

Carlile, E. Hildred

Harris, Frederick Leverton

Randles, Sir John Scurrah

Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

Harrison-Broadley, H. B.

Rawlinson, John Frederick P.

Castlereagh, Viscount

Hervey,F.W.F. (BuryS.Edm'ds

Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall)

Cave, George

Hill, Sir Clemet (Shrewsbury)

Salter, Arthur Clavell

Cavendish, Rt. Hn. Victor C.W.

Hills, J. W.

Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert

Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

Houston, Robert Paterson

Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

Cecil, Lord John P. Joicey-

Kennaway,Rt Hn. Sir John H.

Sheffield,Sir BerkeleyGeorge D.

Cecil, Lord R. (Marylebone, E.)

Kenyon-Slaney, Rt. Hn. Col.W.

Smith,F.E.(Liverpool, Walton)

Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry

Keswick, William

Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)

Clark,George Smith(Belfast,N.)

King,Sir Henry Seymour(Hull)

Starkey, John R.

Coates, E. Feetham (Lewisham

Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm.

Stone, Sir Benjamin

Cochrane,Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

Law, Andrew Bonar (Dulwich)

Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

Courthope, G. Loyd

Lee,Arthur H.(Hants.,Farehan

Talbot,Rt.Hn.J.G. (Oxf 'dUniv.

Craig,Charles Curtis(Antrim,S.)

Lockwood, Rt.Hn.Lt.-Col.A.R.

Thomson, W.Mitchell-(Lanark)

274

275

Thornton, Percy M.

Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid)

Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

Tuke, Sir John Batty

Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.)

Younger, George

Vincent, Col. Sir C. E. Howard

Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

TELLERS FOR THE NOES—

Walker, Col. W.H.(Lancashire)

Wilson,A.Stanley (York. E. R.)

Sir Alexander Acland-Hood and Viscount Valentia.

Walrond, Hon. Lionel

Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-

Drafting Amendment made.
Amendments—
"In page 4, line 42, at the end, to insert the words, 'Provided than nothing in this section shall be construed as enabling the Army Council to give their consent to the application of money to any purpose to which, apart from this section, it could not lawfully be applied, or to give their consent, without the authority of the Treasury, in any ease in which, apart from this section, the authority of the Treasury would he required.' "
"In page 7, line 14, at the end, to insert the words, (c) ' When the corps of a man of the Territorial Force includes more than one unit, authorise him when not embodied to be
posted, without his consent, to any unit other than that to which he was posted on enlistment; or.' "—(Mr. Haldane)
Agreed to.
Amendment proposed to the Bill—
"In page 8, line 20, to leave out the word 'a,' and insert the word 'such.' "—(Mr. Secretary Haldane)—instead thereof.
Question put, "That the Amendment be made."
The House divided: Ayes, 312; Noes, 106. (Division List No. 239.)

Hobart, Sir Robert

Montagu, E. S.

Stanger, H. Y.

Hobhouse, Charles E. H.

Morgan, G. Hay (Cornwall)

Stanley, Hn. A.Lyulph(Chesh.)

Hodge, John

Morgan, J. Lloyd (Cramarthen)

Steadman, W. C.

Holden, E. Hopkinson

Morton, Alpheus Cleophas

Stewart, Halley (Greenock)

Holland, Sir William Henry

Murray, James

Stewart-Smith, D. (Kendal)

Holt, Richard Durning

Myer, Horatio

Strachey, Sir Edward

Hope, W. Bateman(Somerset,N.

Napier, T. B.

Straus, B.S.(Mile End)

Horniman, Emslie John

Newnes, F. (Notts, Bassetlaw)

Strauss, E. A. (Abingdon)

Horridge, Thomas Gardner

Newnes, Sir George (Swansea)

Summerbell, T.

Howard, Hon. Geoffrey

Nicholls, George

Sutherland, J. E.

Hudson. Walter

Nicholson,CharlesN. (Doncast'r

Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth)

Hyde, Clarendon

Norton, Capt. Cecil William

Taylor, John W. (Durham)

Idris, T. H. W.

Nussey, Thomas Willans

Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)

Isaacs, Rufus Daniel

Nuttall, Harry

Tennant. H. J. (Berwickshire)

Jackson, R. S.

O'Grady, J.

Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.)

Jenkins, J.

Parker, James (Halifax)

Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.

Johnson, John (Gateshead)

Partington, Oswald

Thomas,David Alfred (Merthyr

Johnson, W. (Nuneaton)

Paulton, James Mellor

Thomasson, Franklin

Jones,SirD. Brynmor( Swansea)

Pearce, William (Limehouse)

Thompson, J. W.H.(Somerset,E

Jones, Leif (Appleby)

Pearson, Sir W.D. (Colchester)

Thorne, William

Jones, William (Carnarvonshire

Philipps,Col. Ivor (S'thampton)

Tomkinson, James

Kearley, Hudson E.

Philipps,J. Wynford(Pembroke

Torrance, Sir A. M.

Kekewich, Sir George

Philipps, Owen C. (Pembroke)

Toulmin, George

Kincaid-Smith, Captain

Pickersgill, Edward Hare

Trevelyan, Charles Philips

King, Alfred John (Knutsford)

Pirie, Duncan V.

Ure, Alexander

Kitson, Rt. Hon. Sir James

Pollard, Dr.

Walker, H. De R. (Leicester)

Laidlaw, Robert

Price, C. E. (Edinb'gh,Central)

Walton, Sir John L. (Leeds, S.)

Lamb, Edmund G. (Leominster

Price,RobertJohn (Norfolk,E.)

Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

Lambert, George

Priestley, Arthur (Grantham)

Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent)

Lamont, Norman

Rainy. A. Rolland

Ward,W. Dudley(Southampton

Layland-Barratt, Francis

Rea, Russell (Gloucester)

Wardle, George J.

Lea, Hugh Cecil (St.Pancras,E.

Rea, Walter Russell (Scarboro'

Waring, Walter

Leese,SirJosephF. (Accrington)

Rees, J. D.

Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.

Lehmann, R. C.

Renton, Major Leslie

Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan)

Lever, A. Levy (Essex,Harwich

Richards, Thomas (W.Monm'th

Wason,JohnCathcart (Orkney)

Levy, Maurice

Richards,T.F.(Wolverhampton

Waterlow, D. S.

Lewis, John Herbert

Rickett, J. Compton

Watt, Henry A.

Lloyd-George, Rt. Hon. David

Ridsdale, E. A.

Weir, James Galloway

Lough, Thomas

Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)

White, George (Norfolk)

Lupton, Arnold

Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)

White, J. D. (Dumbartonshire)

Luttrell, Hugh Fownes

Robertson,Rt. Hn. E. (Dundee)

White, Luke (York, E. R.)

Lyell, Charles Henry

Robertson,SirG Scott(Bradf' rd

Whitehead, Rowland

Lynch, H. B.

Robson, Sir William Snowdon

Whitley, John Henry (Halifax)

Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester)

Rogers, F. E. Newman

Whittaker, Sir Thomas Palmer

Macdonald,J.M.(Falkirk B'ghs

Rose, Charles Day

Wiles, Thomas

Mackarness, Frederic C.

Rowlands, J.

Wilkie, Alexander

Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.

Russell. T. W.

Williams, J. (Glamorgan)

M'Callum, John M.

Rutherford, V. H. (Brentford)

Williams Llewelyn( Carmarthen

M'Crac, George

Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)

Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)

M'Kenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald

Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel)

Williamson, A.

M'Laren, H. D. (Stafford, W.)

Scarisbrick, T. T. L.

Wills, Arthur Walters

M'Micking, Major G.

Schwann, C. Duncan (Hyde)

Wilson,Hon. C.H. W. (Hull,H.)

Maddison, Frederick

Schwann,Sir C. E. (Manchester)

Wilson, J. H. (Middlesbrough)

Mallet, Charles E.

Scott, A.H.(Ashton-under-Lyne

Wilson, P. W. (St. Pancras, S.)

Manfield, Harry (Northants)

Sears, J. E.

Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)

Markham, Arthur Basil

Seaverns, J. H.

Winfrey, R.

Marks, G.Croydon(Launceston)

Seely, Major J. B.

Wodehouse, Lord

Marnham, F. J.

Shaw, Rt. Hon. T. (Hawick B.)

Wood, T. M'Kinnon

Mason, A. E. W. (Coventry)

Sherwell, Arthur James

Yoxall, James Henry

Massie, J.

Shipman, Dr. John G.

Menzies, Walter

Simon, John Allsebrook

TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr.Whiteley and Mr. J. A. Pease.

Micklem, Nathaniel

Sinclair, Rt. Hon. John

Molteno, Percy Alport

Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie

Mond, A.

Soames, Arthur Wellesley

Money, L. G. Chiozza

Spicer, Sir Albert

NOES.

Anson, Sir William Reynell

Ashley, W. W.

Balfour,RtHn.A.J.(CityLond.)

Anstruther-Gray, Major

Aubrey-Fletcher,Rt. Hon.SirH.

Banbury, Sir Frederick George

Arkwright, John Stanhope

Balcarres, Lord

Baring,Capt.Hn.G(Winchester)

278

279

Barrie, H. T. (Londonderry.N.)

Gibbs, G. A. (Bristol, West)

Pease,HerbertPike(Darlington)

Beach,Hn.Michael Hugh Hicks

Gretton, John

Percy, Earl

Beckett, Hon. Gervase

Haddock, George R.

Randles, Sir John Scurrah

Bignold, Sir Arthur

Hamilton, Marquess of

Rawlinson,JohnFrederickPeel

Bowles, G. Stewart

Hardy, Laurence(Kent,Ashford

Roberts,S.(Sheffield,Ecclesall)

Boyle, Sir Edward

Harris, Frederick Leverton

Salter, Arthur Clavell

Bridgeman, W. Clive

Harrison-Broadley, H. B.

Sandys, Lieut.-Col. Thos. Myles

Butcher, Samuel Henry

Hervey,F.W.F.(BuryS. Edm'ds

Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert

Carlile, E. Hildred

Hill, SirClement (Shrewsbury)

Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

Hills, J. W.

Sheffield,Sir Berkeley GeorgeD.

Castlereagh, Viscount

Houston, Robert Paterson

Smith,F.E.(Liverpool,Walton)

Cave, George

Kennaway,Rt.Hon.SirJohnH.

Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)

Cavendish,Rt.Hon.Victor C.W.

Kenyon-Slaney,Rt.Hon.Col.W.

Starkey, John R.

Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

Keswick, William

Stone, Sir Benjamin

Cecil, Lord John P. Joicey

King,Sir Henry Seymour (Hull)

Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

Cecil, Lord R. (Marylebone, E.)

Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm.

Talbot,Rt.Hn.J.G. (Oxf 'dUniv.

Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry

Law, Andrew Bonar (Dulwich)

Thomson, W.Mitchell-(Lanark)

Clark,GeorgeSmith(Belfast,N.)

Lee,ArthurH.(Hants., Fareham

Thornton, Percy M.

Coates, E. Feetham (Lewisham

Lockwood,Rt.Hn.Lt.-Col.A.R.

Tuke, Sir John Batty

Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

Long,Col.CharlesW.(Evesham)

Vincent, Col. Sir C. E. Howard

Courthope, G. Loyd

Long,Rt, Hn. Walter(Dublin,S.)

Walker,Col. W. H. (Lancashire)

Craig, CharlesCurtis(Antrim, S.)

Lonsdale, John Brownlee

Walrond, Hon. Lionel

Craig,CaptainJames( Down,E.)

Lowe, Sir Francis William

Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid.)

Craik, Sir Henry

Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred

Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.)

Dalrymple, Viscount

MacIver, David (Liverpool)

Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

Doughty, Sir George

M'Calmont, Colonel James

Wilson, A.Stanley( York,E.R.)

Douglas, Rt. Hon.A. Akers-

M'Iver,SirLewis(EdinburghW.)

Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart

Faber, George Denison (York)

Magnus, Sir Philip

Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

Faber, Capt. W. V. (Hants, W.)

Mason, James F. (Windsor)

Younger, George

Fardell, Sir T. George

Mildmay, Francis Bingham

Fell, Arthur

Morpeth, Viscount

TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Sir Alexander Acland-Hood and Viscount Valentia.

Fletcher, J. S.

Nicholson, Wm. G. (Petersfield)

Forster, Henry William

Nield, Herbert

Gardner, Ernest (Berks, East)

O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens

Amendments—,
"In page 8, line 21, after the word 'county,' to insert the words ' as he may select and, if that corps comprises more than one unit within the county, shall be posted to such one of those units as he may select.' "
"In page 8, line 36, after the word ' discharged,' to insert the words, ' before the end of his current term of service.' "
"In page 9, line 11, to leave out the words, ' both or either,' and insert the words, ' all or any.' "
"In page 9, lines 11 and 12, to leave out the words, ' as to notice and payment.' "
"In page 12, line 19, to leave out from the word ' the,' to the end of line 22, and insert, the words' requirements of this section may be dispensed with in whole or in part, (i) as respects any unit, by the prescribed general officer, and (ii) as respects an individual man by his commanding officer, subject to any general directions by the prescribed general officer. "—(Mr. Haldane).
Agreed to.
Bill, as amended, to be further considered To-morrow.

DESTRUCTIVE INSECTS AND PESTS BILL [LORDS]
Read a second time.
Bill committed to a Committee of the Whole House for To-morrow—(Sir Ed ward Strachey).

BOARD OF EDUCATION SCHEME (HULME TRUST ESTATES EDUCATIONAL) CONFIRMATION BILL.
Read a second time, and committed to a Standing Committee.
Adjourned at nineteen minutes after Eleven o'clock