Commons Sitting of 4 June 1907

Preamble
The House met at a quarter before Three of the Clock.

PRIVATE BILL BUSINESS.
Tyne Improvement Bill [Lords].—As amended, considered; to be read the third time.
London County Council (Electric Supply) Bill.—Mr. W. Howell Davies, Mr. Joseph Nolan, Mr. W. W. Rutherford, Sir Albert Spicer, and Mr. D. A. Thomas were nominated Members of the Select Committee on the London County Council(Electric Supply) Bill.—(Mr. Whiteley.)
Local Government (Ireland) Provisional Orders (No. 2) Bill. Read a second time, and committed—
Standing Orders. Resolutions reported from the Select Committee—
"That, in the case of the Selsey Water Bill [Lords], the Standing Orders ought to be dispensed with:—That the parties be permitted to proceed with their Bill."

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"That, in the case of the Alton Military-Hospital [Lords], Petition for Bill, the Standing Orders ought to be dispensed with:—That the parties be permitted to proceed with their Bill."
Resolutions agreed to.

MESSAGE FROM THE LORDS
That they have agreed to:—Irish Tobacco Bill, without Amendment; Keswick Urban District Council (Water) Bill, with Amendments.
Amendments to:—Birmingham Corporation Bill [Lords]; Middlesbrough Corporation Bill [Lords]; Newquay and District Water Bill [Lords], without Amendment.
That they have passed a Bill, intituled, "An Act to remove doubts as to the validity of a certain Decree, dated thirtieth October, one thousand eight hundred and ninety-three, of the High Court of Justice (Probate, Divorce, and Admiralty Division), dissolving the Marriage solemnised on the sixteenth day of November, one thousand eight hundred and eighty, between William Howard Murphy Grimshaw and Mary Evalina Julia Murphy Grimshaw, then Mary Evalina Julia Woodward, Spinster, and to confirm the said Decree." [Murphy Grimshaw's Divorce (Validation) Bill [Lords].
Also, a Bill intituled, "An Act to confer further powers on the Lord Provost, Magistrates, and Town Council of the City and Royal Burgh of Aberdeen in connection with their electricity undertaking; and for other purposes." [Aberdeen Corporation Bill [Lords], now Aberdeen Corporation Electricity Bill [Lords.]
And, also, a Bill intituled, "An Act to extend the limits of supply of the Wisbech Waterworks Company; and to confer further powers upon that Company." [Wisbech Water Bill [Lords.]
Murphy Grimshaw's Divorce (Validation) Bill [Lords]. Read the first time; to be read a second time.
Aberdeen Corporation Electricity Bill [Lords]; Wisbech Water Bill [Lords].— Read the first time; and referred to the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills.

PETITIONS.
  CONGO FREE STATE.
  Petition from Eccles, for protection of the Native Races; to lie upon the Table.
  EDUCATION (SCOTLAND) BILL.
  Petitions for alteration: From Campbeltown; and Rutherglen; to lie upon the Table.
  EDUCATION (SPECIAL RELIGIOUS INSTRUCTION) BILL.
  Petitions against: From Great Crosby; Haydock; Little Woolton and Child-wall; Rainford; Southport; and Speke; to lie upon the Table.
  LICENSING ACTS.
  Petition from Eccles, for alteration of law; to lie upon the Table.
  LIQUOR TRAFFIC (LOCAL OPTION) (SCOTLAND) BILL.
  Petition from Alva, in favour; to he upon the Table.
  MARRIAGE WITH A DECEASED WIFE'S SISTER BILL.
  Petitions against: From Alexandra Park; Bearsted; Bournemouth; Cambridge (three); Carshalton; Chantry; Eakring; Lewes; Newark; Oxford; Ryde; Watford; and Wood Green (two); to lie upon the Table.
  OLD AGE PENSIONS BILL.
  Petition from Glasgow, in favour; to lie upon the Table.
  PAUPER LUNATICS (COST OF MAINTENANCE).
  Petition from Wolstanton and Burslem, for legislation; to lie upon the Table.
  PUBLIC LIBRARIES BILL.
  Petition from Islington, against; to lie upon the Table.
  SALE OF INTOXICATING LIQUORS ON SUNDAY.
  Petition from Boston, for prohibition; to lie upon the Table.
RETURNS, REPORTS, ETC.
  LOCAL CONTRIBUTIONS (IRELAND).
  Return [presented 31st May] to be printed. [No. 174.]
  TRADE REPORTS (ANNUAL SERIES).
  Copies presented, of Diplomatic and Consular Reports, Annual Series, Nos. 3810 and 3811[by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
  TURKEY (No. 1, 1907).
  Copy presented, of Further Correspondence respecting the Affairs of South Eastern Europe [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
  TURKEY (No. 2, 1907).
  Copy presented, of Correspondence respecting the Increase of the Turkish Customs Duties [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
  TURKEY (No. 3, 1907).
  Copy presented, of Despatches from the British Adviser on the Macedonian Financial Commission [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
  EMIGRATION AND IMMIGRATION.
  Return presented, relative thereto [ordered 3rd June; Mr. Lloyd-George]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 175.]
QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS CIRCULATED WITH THE VOTES.

  Maximum Salaries of Assistant Clerks.
  MR. CLAUDE HAY: To ask the Secretary to the Treasury whether, in view of the fact that there are several senior assistant clerks in the various Government Departments who have already reached their maximum of £150 per annum,
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  whose ages range from forty years and upwards, and who have little prospect of promotion, he can hold out any hope of conceding personal allowances, so that these persons may receive more than £ 150 in each year.
  (Answered by Mr. Runciman.) The scale was fixed as appropriate to the duties, and it is not reasonable to expect a grant of personal allowances merely because the maximum 'is attained in due course

  Criminal Appeal Bill—The Grand Jury System.
  MR. LLOYD MORGAN (Carmarthenshire, W.): To ask Mr. Attorney-General whether, in the event of the Criminal Appeal Bill becoming law this Session, and seeing that the Bill gives prisoners increased security against punishment for wrongful conviction, he will consider whether it will be necessary in future to send indictments before a grand jury, and the question of introducing a Bill to put an end to the grand jury system.
  (Answered by Sir John Walton.) The grand jury system provides a safeguard against the oppressive exercise of the right to prefer an indictment against an accused person. Its abolition would be a serious change in the administration of the criminal law, which would not be justified by the creation of a right of appeal in favour of persons who have already been tried and convicted. I do not see that any case for the proposed change has boon established.

  Appointment to Headmastership of Dublin Metropolitan School of Art.
  MR. GWYNN: To ask the Vice-President of the Department of Agriculture (Ireland) whether the headmastership of the Metropolitan School of Art in Dublin is still vacant, if so, when an appointment will be made; and whether he will endeavour to recover and apply to purposes of the art school the sums which have lapsed to the Treasury by the prolonged refusal to fill this post.
  (Answered by Mr. T. W. Russell.) An appointment is about to be made to the headmastership of the Metropolitan School

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  of Art. The suggestion contained in the latter part of the Question is, I am afraid, impracticable. The unexpended balance of salaries must, in the usual course. be surrendered to the Exchequer.

  Horse Breeding in Ireland.
  MR. O'MALLEY: To ask the Vice-President of the Department of Agriculture (Ireland) if the Department is still in possession of the hackney stallions handed over to it by the Congested Districts Board some years ago; if so, whether he will state if these horses are now used for breeding purposes in Ireland; and, if they are, whether the action of the Department in this respect has the approval of the Council of Agriculture and of the committee appointed by the Department to advise in matters connected with horse breeding in Ireland.
  (Answered by Mr, T. W. Russell.) Twelve hackney stallions were transferred to the Department by the Congested Districts Board at the close of 1903. Seven of these animals were sold early in 1904 in England and one has since died, leaving four still retained. Two of these have been located by the Department in remote parts of county Donegal and two in county Galway. It is intended, as opportunity arises through the purchase of sires of a more suitable type, to dispose of the hackney stallions in question. On the recommendation of the departmental advisory committee on horse-breeding stallions of the hackney breed have always been declared by the Department to be ineligible for registration under the general horse-breeding scheme, and accordingly none of the four hackney stallions at present in their possession are used by the Department in connection with that scheme. The action of the Department in excluding hackneys from the operations of the horse-breeding scheme formed the subject of discussion at the meeting of the Council of Agriculture held on 13th February, 1902, when a resolution approving of the policy of the Department in this respect was adopted by a large majority.

  Children charged at metropolitan police courts.
  MR. WEDGWOODS: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what were the numbers of boys and girls, aged seven, eight, nine, ten, eleven, twelve, thirteen, fourteen, and fifteen years, respectively, who were charged and summoned at the metropolitan police courts during the twelve months ended 1st May, 1907.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Gladstone.) It would be impossible to give the age of children who have merely been summoned, and many of whom have not been in police custody at all. The ages of children who have been apprehended and charged are recorded, and, so far as they are concerned, it would be possible to give the Return; but its preparation would involve a long search through the records of each of the police courts, and I am not prepared without strong reasons to impose this additional labour on the already hard-worked officers of the police courts. The hon. Member will find, in Table XIII. of the Criminal Statistics, particulars of the number of children under twelve years and between twelve and sixteen who are convicted after apprehension. I may supplement that information by the following figures for the Metropolitan Police District for the year 1905 (those for 1906 are not yet completed) — Youthful offenders convicted summarily of indictable offences, under twelve years of age, 175; between twelve and sixteen, 777. Youthful offenders apprehended and convicted of non-indictable offences, under twelve years of age, 52; between twelve and sixteen, 1,295. The hon. Member will bear in mind that these figures relate to a district with a population exceeding 6,000,000.

  Inebriate Reformatories for the London District.
  MR. PICKERSGILL: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether his attention has been drawn to the fact that the London County Council have determined to terminate the arrangement which they entered into in 1904 with the

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  National Institution for Inebriates, under which inebriates committed from London wore sent to their reformatories on condition that the more hopeful class of cases should be transferred to the Council's reformatory at Farmfield; whether the effect of this decision will be that London magistrates will be deprived of the opportunity of committing inebriates to inebriate reformatories, except as regards a small number of strictly selected cases eligible for Farmfield; and what steps he proposes to take to render possible the continued committal of London inebriates to reformatories in suitable cases, so that the Inebriates Act may not be made largely inoperative so far as London is concerned.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Gladstone.) My attention has been drawn to the decision of the London County Council to discontinue their present provision for the reception of all classes of female inebriates and to restrict their work to a few selected cases eligible for Farmfield, and there is no doubt that if this policy is maintained the London magistrates will be deprived of the opportunity to commit female inebriates to reformatories save as regards a few isolated cases. I am about to communicate with the Council upon this important matter.

  Age for Exercise of Franchise in Foreign Countries.
  MR. HAROLD COX: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he has yet been able to ascertain at what age the right to vote in parliamentary elections is conferred upon citizens of the principal foreign countries.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Gladstone.) The following information has been collected for me by the Foreign Office from His Majesty's representatives abroad. The age at which persons, who are otherwise qualified, are entitled to exercise the franchise is in a large number of countries either twenty-one or twenty-five years. In the following countries twenty-one years is the age: Brazil, Bulgaria, Cuba, France, Greece, Italy, Portugal, Roumania, Servia, Sweden, United States of America, Wurtemberg.
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  In the following countries the age is twenty-five years: Baden (Baden Diet), Bavaria, Belgium (Chamber of Representatives), Germany (Empire), Hesse-Darmstadt (Hessian Diet), Luxemburg (Chamber of Deputies), Netherlands, Norway, Russia, Spain (Cortes), Saxony (Landtag). In Mexico and Uruguay married men otherwise qualified may exercise the franchise at eighteen years of age, unmarried men at the ages of twenty-one and twenty in the two countries respectively. In Hungary and Switzerland the age is twenty; in Spain, for the election of senators, it is twenty-three; in Austria and the Kingdom of Prussia it is twenty-four; and in Belgium, in the case of direct election to the Senate, and in Denmark it is thirty.

  Site for new post office at bolt on.
  MR. W. T. WILSON: To ask the Postmaster-General whether he has acquired a site yet for the proposed new post office at Bolton; and, if not, what steps he is taking to secure one.
  (Answered by Mr. Sydney Buxton.) The matter is under consideration.

  Application of Postman Langworthy, of Tiverton, for Transfer.
  MR. JAMES O'CONNOR: To ask the Postmaster General whether he is aware that Postman Lang-worthy, of Tiverton, applied for transfer to another walk, and quoted the regulations saying that rural postmen on arduous walks have the first claim to better walks, either town or rural, in the same district, and that not only has he been refused permission to transfer, but has been informed in the Secretary's name there is no such regulation, although it is quoted on page 24 of the Tweedmouth Committee's Report; and whether he will make inquiries into this case with the view to granting Mr. Lang-worthy's request.
  (Answered by Mr. Sydney Buxton.) It is recognised that rural postmen on arduous walks may reasonably be allowed a first claim to better walks in the same district, other considerations being equal. This point was by no means overlooked

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  in the present case, but was in fact pressed with a serious desire to grant Lang-worthy's request, if possible. There are reasons, however, which make it undesirable that he should be transferred to the duty he asks for; and, as it appears that there is nothing very arduous in his present duties, his request was refused. The reference to the regulation seems to have been given under a misapprehension; but this in no way affected the decision.

  Acting Head Postman D Dixon, of Dublin—Claims for Promotion.
  MR. JAMES O'CONNOR: To ask the Postmaster General whether he is aware that Mr. Dixon, of Dublin, has been repeatedly passed over for promotion to the rank of assistant inspector of postmen, but is constantly called upon to perform the duty as substitute without extra pay; and whether he will take steps to see that Mr. Dixon is promoted to the next vacancy.
  (Answered by Mr Sydney Buxton.) It is the case that Acting Head Postman D. Dixon has frequently been employed with- out extra pay as a substitute assistant inspector under the direct supervision of a superior officer. In view of his seniority, it is not considered desirable to deprive him of the opportunities thus afforded of qualifying for advancement, although under the rules he does not receive extra remuneration on such occasions. I can only say that his claims and qualifications for promotion have always been and will still be carefully considered in connection with vacancies on the higher class.

  Continuous Discharge Books Issued to Seamen.
  MR. J. HAVELOCK WILSON: To ask the President of the Board of Trade if he will state the number of continuous discharge books issued to seamen since the scheme was instituted; the number of new discharge books issued during 1906, distinguishing the number issued to men going to sea for the first time, together with their ratings; and the number of books of deserters, etc., now in the custody of the Board of Trade;
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  and the number received and returned to seamen during 1906.
  (Answered by Mr. Lloyd-George.) The total number of continuous discharge books issued up to 31st March, 1907, was 418,917. The number of new discharge books, including renewals, issued during 1906 was 41,463. The number of books of deserters, etc., now in the custody of the Board of Trade is over 35,000, and the numbers received and returned during 1906 were 16,959 and 8,307 respectively. The work and cost of ascertaining the number of books issued in 1906 to men going to sea for the first time, and the ratings of those men, would be so considerable that I regret that I cannot supply the information on those points for which my hon. friend asks.

  La Fiesta Mine.
  MR. BOLAND: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether his attention has been called to the fruitless efforts of some Maltese shareholders in the American Exploration Mining Company of San Francisco to obtain information about La Fiesta Mine; and whether he will direct the British Consul for the district to find out whether such mine exists, and to send a report on the subject.
  (Answered by Secretary Sir Edward Grey.) I am afraid it is not practicable to instruct British consuls to make inquiries on behalf of individual shareholders in foreign companies in order to correct or supplement the information given by the companies themselves.

  Special Service Men in The Navy.
  MR. BRAMSDON: To ask the Secretary to the Admiralty if he will state what is the number of men now in the navy under the short-service system, and how many were recruited during the year 1906; will he also state what is the highest rating that a man enlisted under this system can attain without passing over to the continuous service, and how many short-service men have reached such highest

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  rating since the introduction of the System; and how many men enlisted under the short service have passed over into the continuous service.
  (Answered by Mr. Edmund Robertson.) (1) The numbers of special-service men borne on the 25th March last were:— Seamen, 1,324; stokers, 3,645; total, 4,969. (2) The numbers recruited during the year 1906 were:— Special - service seamen, 527; special service stokers, 2,329; total, 2,856. (3) Leading seaman and stoker, 1st class, respectively. (4) Special-service seamen, none. Special-service stokers, five. (5) The number of transfers from special-service to continuous service up to 31st December last were:— seamen, 58; stokers, 37; total, 95.

  Scottish Schools for Teaching Junior Students.
  MR. GULLAND: To ask the Secretary for Scotland whether he will give the names of the schools selected for teaching junior students, and the reasons why these have been chosen in preference to others making application.
  (Answered by Mr. Sinclair.) A list of the schools in question will be included in the Report on the training of teachers which will be issued shortly. It is not possible to state in detail in answer to a Question the considerations which have guided the Department in making a decision in each case, but generally speaking those schools have been accepted which gave promise, either from past successes, or from the undertakings now given to provide a sufficiently qualified staff and suitable equipment, of being in a position to give a complete five years' course of secondary instruction to pupils who have reached the stage of the qualifying examination (Article 29 of the Code).

  Messrs. Davidson and Company, of Belfast-and Trade Unions.
  MR. C. DUNCAN: To ask Mr. Attorney-General for Ireland whether he is aware that the firm of Davidson and Company, Limited, Sirocco Works, Belfast, insist upon all men when entering their employment signing an
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  agreement to cancel memberships with any labourers' society or of any union of which they are members, and that they shall not join any trade union while in the employ of that firm; and whether he will take such action as will prevent any repetition of such action in the future.
  (Answered by Mr. Cherry.) I have no information upon the subject of this Question. The matter is not one which falls within my province.

  The Patents Bill and Patents worked Abroad.
  MR. SAMUEL ROBERTS: To ask the President of the Board of Trade whether the Patents and Designs (Consolidation) Bill will in any way interfere with or override the provisions of the Patents and Designs Bill now before a Standing Committee of the House, having regard especially to the clauses in the latter Bill relating to the revocation of patents worked abroad, and to the procedure thereon.
  (Answered by Mr. Lloyd-George.) No, Sir. It is intended, before the Consolidation Bill is passed, to incorporate in it the provisions of the amending Bill.

  British Shipping Trading to South Africa.
  MR. ASHLEY (: To ask the President of the Board of Trade what was the total tonnage of British shipping actually trading to South Africa in the years from 1902 to 1906 inclusive; what percentage of that tonnage was chartered to American firms in those years; and what percentage of the total tonnage owned by British South African lines was lying idle in each year.
  (Answered by Mr. Lloyd-George.) The following table gives the particulars asked for in the first part of the Question. I am unable to give the further information which the hon. Member desires. Statement showing the net tonnage of British vessels, including their repeated voyages, that entered and cleared at the ports of the United Kingdom from and to British South Africa in each of the years from 1902 to 1902 inclusive: —

  Entered from British South Africa.

  Year.

  With Cargoes

  In Ballast.

  Total.

  Sailing.

  Steam.

  Total.

  Sailing.

  Steam.

  Total.

  Sailing.

  Steam.

  Total.

  Tons.

  Tons.

  Tons.

  Tons.

  Tons.

  Tons.

  Tons.

  Tons.

  Tons.

  1902

  472

  639,958.

  640,430

  2,137

  71,293

  73,430

  2,609

  711,251

  713,860

  1903

  2,499

  775,226

  777,725

  2,334

  105,574

  107,908

  4,833

  880,800

  885,633

  1904

  1,186

  819,338

  820,524

  1,782

  43,987

  45,769

  2,968

  863,325

  866,293

  1905

  —

  735,143

  735,143

  —

  1,938

  1,938

  —.

  737,081

  737,081

  1906

  —

  726,930

  726,930

  —

  23,849

  23,849

  —

  750,779

  750,779

  Cleared to British South Africa.

  1902

  125,205

  1,013,736

  1,138,941

  2,124

  84,545

  86,660

  127,329

  1,098,281

  1,224,610

  1903

  53,986

  1,226,078

  1,320,064

  —

  66,253

  66,253

  53,986

  1,332,331

  1,386,317

  1904

  33,817

  1,096,951

  1,130,768

  —

  45,804

  45,804

  33,817

  1,142,755

  1,176,572

  1905

  12,558

  819,844.

  832,402

  60

  22,434

  22,494

  12,618

  842,278

  854,896

  1906

  17,306

  678,767

  696,073

  —

  8,322

  8,322

  17,306

  .687,089

  704,395

  Channel islands shipping laws.
  SIR W. J. COLLINS: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether the authorities of Guernsey and Jersey have yet passed into law the detailed suggestions prepared by the Board of Trade with a view to the assimilation of the shipping law of the Channel Islands to that of this country, in respect of certificates of competency, safety, and inquiries into shipping casualties.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Gladstone.) It is proposed to hold a meeting with the insular authorities at the Board of Trade early next month to deal with points in the Board's memorandum on which discussion has been found to be desirable. There will be no avoidable delay, but the provisions of the Merchant Shipping Acts are long and complicated, and their application to the Channel Islands, and the provision of the necessary machinery, must occupy some time. In the meanwhile the Guernsey Bill, to which I referred in my Answer on the 19th March last, has received the approval of the King in Council.

  Gambling Operations in American Cotton.
  MR. FIELD: To ask the Prime Minister whether he is aware that, owing to international gambling operations in the United States and in Great Britain in options and futures of American cotton, its price has been j artificially raised to over 7d. per pound on the Liverpool Exchange and a corner for the next few months established; and, if so, what steps does His Majesty's Government intend to take in order to safeguard the Lancashire cotton industry as well as the masses of this country in the future from advances caused by international gambling operations in fictitious raw materials through option and future contracts.
  (Sir H. Campbell Bannerman.) I have nothing to add to the Answer given on the 20th of Marsh to a somewhat similar Question of the hon. Member by my right hon. friend the President of the Board of Trade.†
  † See (4) Debates, clxxi., 834–5.

QUESTIONS IN THE HOUSE:

  Cordite.
  MR. BELLAIRS: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Admiralty whether the Board have any official information showing that the explosions in the case of the American cruiser "Maine," the Brazilian battleship "Aguidaban," the Japanese battleship "Mikasa," and the French battleship "Iena," were due to spontaneous explosion of smokeless or nitro-powders; and whether, in the cases of the spontaneous explosions of cordite in the "Revenge "some years ago and in "Fox" last year, a quantity of cordite was found to be in a very deteriorated condition.
  THE SECRETARY TO THE ADMIRALTY (Mr. EDMUND ROBERTSON, Dundee): It would be manifestly improper for me to make any statement in regard to the foreign battleships in question; and as regard the second part of the Question the reply is in the negative.
  MR. BELLAIRS: Would it not be proper for the right hon. Gentleman to answer the Question, seeing that a Commission has already reported, and the Report has been published in the Press?
  MR. EDMUND ROBERTSON: I do not think so.
  LORD R. CECIL: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Admiralty if he will state the date of the spontaneous explosion of a six-inch cordite cartridge in the magazine of the "Fox" last year; whether it was subsequently found that a quantity of the cordite was in a deteriorated condition; and whether he can afford any information as to the name of the maker of the cordite and its age.
  MR. EDMUND ROBERTSON: The date was 31st October. The Answer to the second part of the Question is in the negative, but cordite stowed in the same magazine was destroyed as a precautionary measure. The cordite in question was eight years old. There is no reason to suppose that the ignition was due to any defect in manufacture, and it is not therefore considered desirable to give the name of the maker.
  MR. ARTHUR LEE: Was not the explosion due to the deterioration of the cordite? If not, what was the cause?
  MR. EDMUND ROBERTSON: It is supposed that the cause was high temperature acting on a weak spot in the cartridge in question.
  MR. COWAN: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Admiralty how many of our fifty-one battleships, twenty - eight armoured cruisers, and seventy-six unarmoured cruisers have refrigerating apparatus for their magazines in order to prevent the risk of deterioration to cordite which is caused by high temperature.
  MR. EDMUND ROBERTSON: Ships at present under construction are being fitted with magazine cooling arrangements, and steps are being taken to equip ships on tropical stations with apparatus of this description at once. The remaining ships will be fitted as the necessary machinery is delivered.
  MR. BOWLES: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War how many cases of the spontaneous explosion of cordite in magazines occurred last year; whether the magazine which exploded at Woolwich on the 11th February last contained a large quantity of cordite; and whether he can lay the results of the investigation into this explosion upon the Table, or indicate their purport to the House.
  MR. HALDANE: There was no explosion last year in any magazine under the control of the War Office. The magazine which exploded on 11th February last contained various explosives including a small amount of cordite. It is not considered expedient in the interests of the public service to make known the results of the investigation.
  MR. BELLAIRSasked whether there were not two explosions in magazines under the India Office.
  MR. HALDANEsaid that was quite true.
  MR. LEAasked whether those explosions wore due to the presence of mercuric chloride in cordite.
  MR. HALDANEsaid he thought that was extremely unlikely. He was inclined to think that the cordite was made out there.

  BRITISH GENERALS AND DISARMAMENT.
  DR. COOPER: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether his attention has been directed to the reply given by General Sir T. Kelly - Kenny to Dr. Maurice Ernst, the London correspondent of the Neues Wiener Tagblatt for publication in that paper, on England and the disarmament question, and the answers of Generals Sir Ian Hamilton and Sir Alfred Turner to the Allegemeine Zeitung of Munich on the same question; whether either of these generals are on the active list of the Army or Reserve of Officers; if so, whether any permission has been given to these officers to express their opinion in the newspapers on the action of the Government; and, if not, what does he intend to do in the matter.
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WAR (Mr. HALDANE, Haddington): Of the generals referred to, only one—Sir Ian Hamilton—is on the active list and thus subject to military law. On General Hamilton being approached by a representative of a Bavarian newspaper, with a view to expressing his opinion on disarmament, Sir Ian replied that the military regulations forbade his writing to the Press on military matters. The expression of opinion in the Bavarian newspaper ascribed to General Hamilton is a translation of a passage of a speech delivered by him at Petersham on the 27th April last. I may add that the opinions of the retired officers alluded to in the Question are not such as to call for any action on my part.

  DEFECTIVE RIFLE AMMUNITION.
  *MR. BELLAIRS: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War what has been the cause of recent failures of rifle ammunition; how many rounds of ammunition will have to be withdrawn from issue; and how many cases of cartridges bursting the rifles have occurred this year.
  MR. HALDANE: The whole matter is being investigated; and until the investigation is completed and full information obtained, a reply to the Question cannot be furnished.

  Eltham Common.
  LORD BALCARRES: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether his attention has been drawn to a report by Mr. Percival Birkett, made to the council of the metropolitan borough of Woolwich, as to the existence of rights of common upon Eltham Common; and whether he will now abandon the proposal to build upon this metropolitan common, and at once stop the felling of trees upon and the removal of the loam by the military authorities from it, with a view to its preservation as an open space for the benefit of the inhabitants of Woolwich.
  MR. HALDANE: I have not seen the report referred to, but Mr. Birkett has been in correspondence with my Department on the subject. The proposal to build is still under consideration, but the felling of trees and removal of loam has nothing to do with the proposal to build. These measures have been taken to render the ground more suitable for the purposes of military training.
  LORD BALCARRES: Is the War Office entitled to do this without bringing in a Bill?
  MR. HALDANE: I have said that no decision has yet been come to.
  MR. CROOKS: Will the right hon. Gentleman prohibit the removal of the loam?
  MR. HALDANE: It is only being removed in order to improve the ground and to make it available for training purposes.

  Yeomanry inspections.
  CAPTAIN CRAIG: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether any general scheme is laid down by the War Office for the inspection of Imperial Yeomanry regiments; and, if so, whether he will ensure that such general scheme is adhered to by inspecting officers.
  I beg also to ask the Secretary of State for War if he will state for what reason the War Office has recently decided that Imperial Yeomanry regiments must march past at inspections.
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  I beg further to ask the Secretary of State for War whether ho is aware that two and sometimes three different officers insist on inspecting Imperial Yeomanry regiments during a single training, and in consequence unnecessarily encroach upon the already limited time at the disposal of Imperial Yeomanry regiments for real practical work; and whether he proposes to take steps to stop this practice.
  MR. HALDANE: Inspections of Imperial Yeomanry regiments in Great Britain are at present carried out by staff officers for Imperial Yeomanry under the General Officer Commanding - in-Chief. The Imperial Yeomanry regiments in Ireland are inspected by the Brigadier - General Commanding 3rd Cavalry Brigade No departure from the above procedure has been reported to the Army Council except in the case of one regiment in Great Britain which was inspected by the colonel commanding a cavalry regiment. No recent decision has been given as regards the compulsory marching past of Imperial Yeomanry. When for any reason the Imperial Yeomanry arc required to march past, the same instructions are in force as those issued with the "Instructions for Training of Imperial Yeomanry," dated March, 1905.

  ST. Helena.
  MAJOR ANSTRUTHER-GRAY: I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether, in consideration of the suffering' caused by the removal of the garrison at St. Helena, he will consider the advisability of making a further grant to the islanders to help them tide over their present troubles.
  THE UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE COLONIES (MR. CHURCHILL, Manchester, N.W.): I can assure the hon. and gallant Member that the Secretary of State is watching events in St. Helena with sympathetic interest, and, if circumstances at any time demand it, he will not hesitate to ask the Lords Commissioners of the Treasury to give further assistance to the island.
  MAJOR ANSTRUTHER-GRAY: May I ask what garrison it is proposed to

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  furnish St. Helena with in the event of Zulu prisoners being sent there?
  *MR. SPEAKER: Notice should be given of that Question.

  Transvaal loans.
  MR. GEORGE FABER: I beg to ask the Prime Minister whether, in consideration of or connection with the guarantee by this country of the new Transvaal Loan of £5,000,000, General Botha, or any one on his behalf, was asked to give, or did give, any undertaking or promise or assurance to His Majesty's Government or to the Colonial Office regarding the repatriation of Chinese coolies from South Africa, or whether such repatriation came under discussion in connection with the guarantee.
  MR. CHURCHILL: The questions of according an Imperial guarantee for a £5,000,000 loan of the Transvaal Government and of the repatriation of the Chinese coolies from the Witwatersrand goldfield have been and will continue to be decided upon their respective merits by His Majesty's Government. No bargain of the kind suggested by the hon. Gentleman was over made. The Transvaal Government remain perfectly free to deal with the repatriation of the Chinese coolies within the limits of the constitution under which they have assumed power; and His Majesty's Government on their part have every intention of most strictly adhering to and enforcing the policy in regard to the termination of Chinese labour in South Africa which has been repeatedly declared to Parliament and which in important particulars is embodied in the Letters Patent. But it is right that I should add that among the reasons which influenced His Majesty's Government in their decision to accord the Imperial guarantee in question to the Transvaal Government was a desire that the credit of that Government should in the early days of its existence be independent of the favour or ill-will of local interests.
  MR. GEORGE FABER: May I ask the right hon. Gentleman to reply specifically to the last part of my Question, whether such repatriation came under discussion in connection with the guarantee? And may I ask, further, whether he will inform the House, if he
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  can, the last occasion on which a loan issued by a self-governing Colony was guaranteed by the Imperial Government?
  MR. CHURCHILL: That is plainly a Question of which I should have notice, but I may say that there are several excellent precedents.
  SIR F. BANBURYasked the right hon. Gentleman whether he would answer the last part of his hon. friend's Question.
  MR. CHURCHILL: All sorts of matters connected with South Africa formed the subject of discussion with General Botha and Ministers of the Crown during his stay in England, and I have already stated to the House that there was no question of balancing the policy of His Majesty's Government in respect of the loan against the policy of the Transvaal Government in respect of repatriation.
  MR. MYER: Is it not a fact that, in consequence of the granting of the Chinese Ordinance to the South African mine owners, they guaranteed the loan of £30,000,000?
  MR. CHURCHILL: That is a matter which concerns the late Government, and not the present one.

  British "Embassy at Tokio—Medical Officer.
  SIR W. J. COLLINS: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether the British Embassy at Tokio is a public institution within the meaning of the Medical Acts; whether a medical officer appointed to the Embassy ought to be a legally qualified medical practitioner; whether on the occasion of the last appointment to this office the vacancy was advertised or otherwise made known in Japan or in this country; and whether the gentleman now occupying the position of medical officer to the British Embassy at Tokio holds any medical qualification entitling him to act as a legally qualified medical man on British territory or to practise in Japan.
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (SIR EDWARD GREY, Northumberland, Berwick): As

  485
  regards the first, second, and last parts of the Question I am not prepared to make any statement involving an interpretation of the meaning of any portion of the Medical Acts, but would refer the hon. Member to the last sentence of my reply to him on 14th May†. In regard to the third part, I may say that no advertisement was issued in the Press, but his Majesty's Ambassador reported at the time that he had made numerous inquiries in Great Britain as well as in Japan, without, however, finding a suitable British candidate.

  Chinese Customs House at Dalny.
  LORD BALCARRES: On behalf of the hon. Member for Mid. Armagh, I beg to ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether an agreement has yet been arrived at with regard to the establishment of a branch of the Chinese Maritime Customs at Dalny; and, if so, whether he is in a position to state the nature of the agreement and when effect will be given to its provisions.
  SIR EDWARD GREY: His Majesty's Minister reported on the 31st ultimo that an agreement was signed on 30th May, providing for the functioning of a Custom House at Dalny from 1st July next, if the necessary arrangements were completed by that date. The reply to the second part of the Question is at present in the negative.

  German Trade With the United States.
  MR. PIKE PEASE: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if the modus Vivendi on trade arrangements between Germany and the United States has now been settled.
  SIR EDWARD GREY: I am informed that the administrative changes will take effect at once in the United States, and the reduction of duties on the 1st proximo.

  Rebellion in Persia.
  MR. LYNCH: I bee to ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether the recent Report of His Majesty's Minister in Tehran to the effect that all
  † see (4) Debates, elxxiv., 787.
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  is now quiet in the South of Persia makes any mention of the fact that a brother of His Majesty the Shah has been for some time engaged in the south-western provinces organising a rebellion against the Persian Government; and whether lie has any official information as to the report that this prince is now marching northwards at the head of an army.
  SIR EDWARD GREY: His Majesty's Minister at Tehran has reported that a younger brother of His Majesty the Shah is in revolt between Kermanshah and Hamadan, and that military measures are being taken.
  MR. LYNCH: Has there been any request for mediation made to either the British or the Russian Government?
  SIR EDWARD GREY: Not that I am aware of.

  Chinese Anti-Opium Edict.
  *MR. REES: I bog to ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether the anti-opium edict is of the same character, force, and validity as the ordinary official edicts of the Chinese Government.
  SIR EDWARD GREY: As far as I am aware, the reply to the hon. Member's Question is in the affirmative
  MR. REES: In that case, Sir, has the right hon. Gentleman seen the edict decreeing the posthumous promotion of the sage Confucius from the rank of the Sun and the Moon to that of Earth and Heaven?
  MR. LYNCH: How can it be supposed the edict will be carried out when our Consuls are unable to give even an approximate idea of the amount of opium grown in China?
  SIR EDWARD GREYasked for notice of the Question.

  Depreciation of Securities.
  MR. FELL: I bog to ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer if his attention has been called to the fact, that the list of representative bankers' securities now shows a depreciation in their value, since 1st January, 1906, amounting to more than the whole

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  cost to us of the Transvaal war; and whether, having regard to the uneasiness caused to investors by this fall in values and to the losses which the Revenue must ultimately sustain, he will consider the question of applying a larger portion of the sinking fund to the purchase of Consols than he did in the past year.
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER (Mr. Asquith, Fifeshire, E.): I am aware that a very considerable depreciation has taken place in securities generally during the period in question, but I doubt whether any useful conclusion can be based on statistics showing the precise sum by which an arbitrarily selected list of stocks may have fallen in value within an arbitrarily selected period, or by comparing that sum with the total cost of the South African, or any other war. On the question of the mode of application of the sinking fund during the current year, I am not prepared, for the reasons which I gave in reply to a Question by my hon. friend the Member for the Mile End division on 27th ultimo, † to make any definite pronouncement at the present time.
  MR. GEORGE FABER: May I ask if any of the money falling into the fund has been temporarily loaned for the purpose of the issue of Irish Land Stock?
  MR. ASQUITH: I should like notice of that Question.

  Income Tax Returns.
  MR. PIKE PEASE: I beg to ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer if he can now give an estimate of the probable receipts into the Exchequer resulting from the new regulations as to compulsory returns of income made by individuals and employers.
  MR. ASQUITH: No, Sir. I have no data on which to base an estimate of the amount of taxable income which escapes assessment through the imperfections of the present regulations.
  MR. PIKE PEASE: Can the right hon. Gentleman make no estimate?
  † See (4) Debates, clxxiv., 1818.
  MR. ASQUITH: It is purely conjectural. We must wait to learn by experience.

  Finance Bill
  MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN: I desire to ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether it is necessary the Royal Assent should be given to this Bill by any particular date?
  MR. ASQUITH: I do not think so.

  Workmen's Compensation.
  MR. BOTTOMLEY: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether his attention has been called to a recent ease heard in the City of London Court, in which a printer who had sustained serious injuries in the course of his trade was disqualified for compensation on the ground that the premises on which he was working at the time were a portion of a factory hired temporarily by his employers from another firm occupying it; that the Judge said he was very sorry for the plaintiff', but there was no course open to him except to find for the defendants with costs; and whether he will consider the desirableness of amending the Workmen's Compensation Act so as to cover such a case.
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE HOME DEPARTMENT (Mr. GLADSTONE, Leeds, W.): I have seen the new paper report of the case which the hon. Member has been good enough to send me. The point is met by the amending and consolidating Act of last session, which comes into force on the 1st July. Under that Act workmen will no longer be debarred from recovering compensation from employers on the ground indicated in the Question.
  MR. H. J. TENNANT: Does the fact that the premises were only temporarily hired constitute good ground for the refusal of compensation?
  MR. GLADSTONE: I am afraid I cannot answer that question.

  Departmental Committee on Check-Weighing.
  MR. WATT: I beg to ask the Secretary of State

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  for the Home Department whether his Departmental Committee on Check-weighing in the Iron and Steel Trades contains a representative of the finished trades; and, if not, will he appoint such, in view of the fact that the necessity for compulsory weighing or measuring applies more particularly to the finished iron and steel trades, than even to the pig iron or smelting trades.
  MR. GLADSTONE: The Committee does represent the employers and men engaged in a part of what I understand my hon. friend to mean by the finished iron and steel trades, and as I informed him on 8th May I prefer not to add to their numbers. The present Committee may, I think, be left to deal with such of the finished trades as come within their own experience, and the question can then be considered whether the Committee should be reconstituted with different representatives of the masters and men for the purpose of dealing with others.
  MR. J. WARD: Will the terms of reference entitle the Committee to inquire into the case of other trades where piecework obtains? For instance, quarrymen and navvies are nearly always employed by piece.
  MR. GLADSTONE: As it is a Departmental Committee I can add to or alter the terms of reference in any manner I may consider desirable. It is my intention that the inquiry shall cover the cases referred to by the hon. Member.

  The Companies Bill.
  MR. BOTTOMLEY: I bog to ask the President of the Board of Trade when it is proposed to proceed with the Companies Bill [Lords].
  THE PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD OF TRADE (Mr. LLOYD-GEORGE, Carnarvon Boroughs): It is proposed to proceed with the Companies Bill on the first available day, but I am unable to give an exact date at present.

  Sale of Disinfectants.
  MR. REES: I beg to ask the President of the Local Government Board whether he is aware that the Privy Council Order of 27th July, 1900,
  490
  which permits the sale without trial of fluids containing less than 3 per cent. carbolic acid or its homologues, on the ground that such fluids are not poisons within the meaning of the Pharmacy Act of 1868, has resulted in flooding the market with disinfectants containing less than 3 per cent. carbolic acid; and whether he proposes to take such action as may be necessary to prevent this and to ensure the standardisation of disinfectants.
  THE PRESIDENT OF THE LOCAL GOVERNMENT BOARD (Mr. JOHN-BURNS, Battersea): Liquids containing less than 3 per cent. of carbolic acid are, I understand, chiefly used as deodorants. They would not be likely to be used where, in case of infectious disease, disinfectants wore supplied by the sanitary authority on the advice of the medical officer of health. My attention has not been drawn to an increased use of deodorants of the kind referred to since the Order of the Privy Council was made, and it does not appear to me that I could take any action in the matter.
  MR. REES: Is it not the case that many of the fluids are bought by the public under the impression that they are not only deodorisers but also disinfectants? If they do not disinfect, are they not a source of public danger?
  MR. JOHN BURNS: If the hon. Member will supply me with examples, I will inquire.

  Southminster Guardians' Election.
  MR. THORNE: I beg to ask the President of the Local Government Board whether his attention has been called to the Southminster guardians' election, where two candidates by the name of Messrs. Pipe and Downing were elected, at the same time holding contracts under the Maldon Union for the supply of boots and conveyances, and who took their seats in defiance of a protest made to the returning officer (Mr. White, of Maldon) before the votes were counted; and whether he intends taking any action.
  MR. JOHN BURNS: I have no authority to deal with the qualification or disqualification of candidates at an election of guardians, but I have made

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  inquiry with regard to this case, and I understand that before the counting of the votes at the election a protest was made on the ground referred to in the Question. I am, however, informed that no contracts were then or are now held by either of the two candidates mentioned. It is stated that one of them has been accustomed from time to time occasionally to supply a pair of boots or shoes to paupers, but that since his election he has stopped supplying them, and that the other has never since his election supplied conveyances to the guardians.

  General Post Office — Leave of Absence Regulations.
  MR. THORNE: I beg to ask the Postmaster - General whether ho will explain the diversity of treatment with regard to various grades of postal officials in relation to leave of absence for urgent domestic distress, in view of the fact that recently a telegraphist in the Central Office, London, was refused leave of absence by his deputy controller to attend the funeral of a near relative.
  THE POSTMASTER GENERAL (Mr. SYDNEY BUXTON, Tower Hamlets, Poplar): If the hon. Member will give me the particulars of the case to which he refers, I will have inquiry made.

  Belfast Post Office Staff.
  MR. MOORE: I beg to ask the Postmaster-General if there are. at present in the post office, Belfast,, thirteen post office assistants, originally in the service as telegraph messengers, who should have been dismissed at the age of sixteen, if it was not desired to continue them in the postal service; if these lads have service and unimpeachable records for from four to six years; if they are now aged from eighteen to twenty-one years, and, if dismissed, will have to search for new employment, out of which their continuance in the service after the age of sixteen has thrown them; what were the conditions under which they were so continued; and can he see his way, under all the circumstances of the case, to retain them in the postal service.
  MR. SYDNEY BUXTON: There are thirteen telegraph messengers at Belfast, aged from eighteen to twenty, who have
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  been employed from four to six years, and most of whom have a good record. Their employment was continued after the age of sixteen in the hope that it would be possible to appoint them as established postmen within a reasonable time. Unfortunately, the prospect of finding them established appointments is still remote; and it is considered best in their own interests that they should procure outside employment. They have for some time been employed as substitute postmen; and their employment in this capacity will be temporarily continued. It is clearly understood, however, that they will not thereby acquire any claim to established positions. It may be possible to appoint a few of them assistant postmen in the near future.
  CAPTAIN CRAIG: May we take it that the boys will not be dismissed immediately?
  MR. SYDNEY BUXTON: They are not exactly dismissed. They are simply told it is better for their own prospects to obtain outside employment.
  MR. J. WARDasked if it was not a fact that a considerable number of these boys were dismissed from the service about this age, because a preference was given to ex-military and naval men.
  MR. SYDNEY BUXTON: The House knows that an agreement was entered into years ago by which a certain percentage of vacancies was sot apart for ex-soldiers and naval men. We do not propose to extend that system, or indeed to interfere with it.
  MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN: Will the right hon. Gentleman consider the possibility of giving some technical training to these boys so that they may become skilled servants as sorters or telegraphists?
  MR. SYDNEY BUXTON: The right hon. Gentleman was not present I think when I spoke on the Post Office Estimates. We have given the utmost consideration to the question. We have the very greatest sympathy for the boys who have to find other work because we cannot employ them.

  American Mail Service.
  MR. MOORE: I beg to ask the Postmaster-General is he aware that the North Gorman Lloyd steamers are 23-knot vessels while those of the White Star Company are only 19; and as, under the altered arrangements of sailing, the steamers of both lines are to leave Southampton at 11 a.m. on Wednesdays, letters carried by the North German Lloyd steamers will arrive in New York on Tuesdays and enable replies to be sent by the White Star steamer leaving the following day, whereas mails sent by the White Star steamer from Southampton will not be in time for answers to be so sent, is it, in these circumstances, his intention to continue sending the mails which are ready for despatch on Wednesday mornings, and which heretofore have been embarked in Liverpool, by the White Star steamer at 11 a.m., or will he have these mails sent by the North German Lloyd vessels leaving at the same hour.
  MR. SYDNEY BUXTON: The fact that the packets of the White Star Line now sail from Southampton instead of Liverpool will not affect the arrival of the mails in New York; because the packets will continue to call at and to leave Queenstown at the same hour as before, and the final despatch of mails from England will still take place on Wednesday evenings. It is and has always been possible to secure the transmission of correspondence by the German steamers by superscribing the letters accordingly. Consequently I do not propose to alter the arrangement by which all correspondence is sent by the British contract packets, unless marked for transmission id some other way. It should be borne in mind that the foreign steamers do not furnish a regular weekly service all the year round whereas the British packets are bound under contract to perform the voyage regularly.

  Imports of Paper.
  SIR HOWARD VINCENT: I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade if he is aware that rolls of green paper constantly arrive at the London Docks with an outside label, "Paper for the Westminster Gazette "; and whether, in view of the 16th section of the Merchandise Marks Act, 1887, he
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  proposes to take steps to secure that the paper contained in this outer covering shall not be put into circulation bearing printed matter in the English language without a definite indication of the country in which such paper was made or produced.
  MR. J. WARD: Before the hon. Gentleman replies, may I ask whether he is also aware that rolls of white paper constantly arrive at the London Docks labelled "Five miles of paper for the Daily Mail," and whether he will apply similar regulations to this paper?
  THE FINANCIAL SECRETARY TO THE TREASURY (Mr. RUNCIMAN, Dews-bury): I am informed by the Board of Customs that the facts are not correctly stated in the first sentence of the Question. The rolls of green paper referred to are not labelled as described, but boar merely an initial letter and a number when cleared by the Customs Department.
  SIR HOWARD VINCENTasked whether the hon. Gentleman had himself seen this paper arrive at the docks marked as described, as ho himself had, and on whose authority he contradicted the statement in the Question. What was the name of the inspector on whose authority he spoke?
  MR. RUNCIMANreplied that, as the hon. Member must be aware, at the time the paper was cleared by the Customs it bore only an initial and a number, and not the mark referred to in the Question.
  SIR HOWARD VINCENT: Then I understand that the label is put on afterwards in order to deceive the public.

  Second Division Clerks.
  MR. PARKER: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury, in view of the fact that an examination for seventy vacancies in the Second Division has been announced by the Civil Service Commissioners, if he will state whether there are any new class assistant clerks serving in those Departments of the State in which such vacancies exist who are efficiently performing duties similar to those on which their Second Division colleagues are employed; whether any

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  such assistant clerks are eligible for promotion to the Second Division; and, if so, whether he will consider the desirability of arranging that some of the Second Division appointments now vacant should be given to such eligible assistant clerks.
  MR. RUNCIMAN: Promotions of assistant clerks can only be made in cases of exceptional merit and upon the recommendation of the head of the Department. Any such recommendations will be carefully considered, but I cannot undertake to adopt the course suggested by the hon. Member.

  Dog Regulations-
  MR. ASHLEY: I beg to ask the hon. Member for South Somerset, as representing the President of the Board of Agriculture, what is the meaning of the word "dog" for the purpose of regulations under Section 2 (1) (a) of The Dogs Act, 1906; and at what age a puppy becomes a dog for that purpose.
  THE TREASURER OF THE HOUSEHOLD (SIR EDWARD STRACHEY, Somersetshire, S.): The word "dog" is not defined in the Act, but there is no doubt that it includes puppies.
  MR. ASHLEY: But at what age does a puppy become a dog under the Act? I wish to know because several of my constituents have been prosecuted.
  SIR EDWARD STRACHEY: What the hon. Member wants to know is the effect of this section. It imposes no obligation, but it gives power to make orders; and what happens is that the local authorities submit regulations to the Board of Agriculture for approval. The hon. Member suggests that the local anthorities and the Board of Agriculture would be so stupid as to make puppies wear collars.
  MR. ASHLEY: I ask the simple question, What is the age which the regulations lay down?
  [No Answer was returned.]

  Meat Trade in Glasgow.
  MR. WATT: I beg to ask the Secretary for Scotland whether, in
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  view of the facts that chilled meat, marked U.S., inspected, and passed, was seized in Glasgow Meat Market on 18th and 20th February, and found unfit for human food, that this meat showed no evidence of having been previously inspected, that United States statistics show that each inspector there has to examine the car cases and viscera of at least 937 animals daily, he will take steps to ensure greater precaution in admitting into Scotland this class of meat for human consumption.
  THE SECRETARY FOR SCOTLAND (Mr. SINCLAIR, Forfarshire): I am not in a position to confirm the suggestion in my hon. friend's Question as to the conditions under which meat is inspected in the United States. The Local Government Board for Scotland have no power to take any stops to ensure greater precaution in the admission into Scotland of the class of moat referred to. I am informed that chilled and frozen meat does not come direct to Scotland from the United States, but that it usually goes to London or Liverpool and is consigned to Scottish centres from those Ports.

  Irish. Licensing Laws.
  MR. MOORE: I beg to ask Mr. Attorney-General for Ireland if he is aware that, notwithstanding the present provisions of the Licensing Law requiring public-houses to close, in all but certain towns in Ireland, at 9 o'clock, chemists and druggists claim the right to sell medicated or other wines and Burgundies between nine and ten o'clock; and if he will take steps to stop this practice.
  THE ATTORNEY-GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. CHERRY, Liverpool, Exchange): I am aware that a claim by chemists and druggists mentioned in the Question has been made, but the Government has been advised that it has no foundation in law. The police, however, have been instructed not to interfere when they find that the sale of medicated wines for the use of invalids is bona fide carried on as chemists' business, but where there is reason to believe that an ordinary wine business is being conducted and the regulations of the Licensing Acts merely evaded, prosecutions will be instituted.

  Irish Schools—Heating Arrangements.
  CAPTAIN CRAIG: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether, in view of the climatic conditions prevailing in Ireland, causing distress among children attending national schools through the insufficient and irregular heating of class rooms, he will urge the Government to take steps to provide the funds necessary to remedy the existing state of affairs before winter sets in.
  MR. CHERRY: I am afraid that I can add nothing to the reply given by my right hon. friend to the hon. Member's previous Question on this subject on 14th February last. †

  Skibbereen Medical Officer.
  MR. LONSDALE: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether the Local Government Board have ordered a sworn inquiry into the election recently of a medical officer by the Skibbereen Board of Guardians, in view of allegations of bribery and corruption which have been made publicly.
  MR. CHERRY: The Answer is in the affirmative.

  Intimidation in Ireland.
  Mr. LONSDALE: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that a number of grazing farms in county Roscommon cannot be used by their occupiers because of the intimidation and unlawful interference with their user organised by the United Irish League; whether he is aware that it is publicly asserted in the district that the Government approve of the methods of the League; and whether, seeing that the object of this action is to force the sale of the grazing farms for distribution among members of the League, the Estates Commissioners will be instructed not to purchase any lands in regard to which intimidation has been practised to force a sale.
  MR. CHERRY: I am informed that there are a number of grazing farms in county Roscommon at present unoccupied,
  † See (4) Debates, clxix., 311,562.
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  and I regret to say that there is reason to believe that, in some of those cases at all events, this result is due to unlawful interference by crowds of people who have driven cattle off the lands. I have no information that it has been publicly asserted that the Government approve of methods of intimidation, an assertion which would be quite contrary to the fact. The real facts are that prosecutions have boon instituted in every case where intimidation has been reported and whore evidence is forth-coining, and that full police measures have been taken for the protection of the occupiers of grazing farms in the exercise of their legal rights. As regards the concluding part of the Question, I would refer to the Answer given by my right hon. friend to the Question put by the hon. Member for the Oswestry Division on 14th May. ‡
  MR. BYLES: May I ask whether the intimidation and unlawful interference spoken of is properly described in the evening newspapers as "Terrorism in Ireland"?
  MR. CHERRY: That is a matter of opinion.
  MR. BYLES: Does it amount to that?
  [No Answer was returned.]

  Nevins Estate, County Limerick.
  MR. JOYCE: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland at what date was the Nevins Estate at Mountshannon, Annacoty, county Limerick, parcelled out to the tenants; how was the allotment made; wore all the persons who were given farms on this estate evicted tenants; have any changes been made since by any inspector; and has an inspector power to change a tenant from one farm to another after such tenant being put in possession and signing the agreement for purchase for the farm allotted to him.
  MR. CHERRY: The Estates Commissioners inform me that the distribution of the lands referred to took place on the 7th of last month. Of the persons who were allotted holdings, nine were
  ‡ See (4) Debates, clxxiv., 799–800.

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  evicted tenants, two were tenants on the estate, and four were tenants of adjacent small holdings. The allocation of such holdings is decided on by the Commissioners themselves, upon a scheme prepared by their inspector, and approved of by them. The Commissioners are not aware that any change has been made since the new occupiers were put into possession. No change could be made without the Commissioners' approval.

  Birr Compensation Cases.
  MR. LONSDALE: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland how many claims for compensation for malicious damage to property were before the last Birr quarter sessions; and what was the total amount awarded by the court.
  MR. CHERRY: Three claims for compensation were heard on the occasion mentioned. In one case the claim was dismissed. In another case the sum of £1,660 was awarded as compensation for the malicious burning of a stable and horses. Appeals have been lodged in this case by both the county council and district council. In the third case, the sum of £35 was awarded as compensation for the burning of the roof of a dwelling house.

  Irish Council Bill.
  MR. LONSDALE: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether, in the event of the Irish Council Bill not becoming law, he will take steps to secure that the whole or some part of the proposed additional grant of £650,000 shall be available for development purposes, and particularly to facilitate land purchase and to avoid further inroads upon the Guarantee Fund.
  MR. CHERRY: The financial provisions of the Irish Council Bill were framed in connection with the Bill itself, and cannot be considered apart from it.
  MR. LONSDALE: Is it not necessary to do something towards relieving the congested condition of Ireland? Cannot a portion of this money be applied to that purpose?
  MR. CHERRYsaid he thought it was desirable that they should get as much
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  money for Ireland as they could in every possible way.

  Irish Land Purchase.
  MR. LONSDALE: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he will state what sum is at present available for advances to purchasers under the Land Purchase Act of 1903; and when it is proposed to make a fresh issue of Irish land stock.
  MR. ASQUITH: Money is at present being supplied to the Irish Land Purchase. Fund by temporary loans from funds in the hands of the National Debt Commissioners, as and when required, as provided by Section 30 of the Irish Land Act, 1903. This answers the Question just put by the hon. Member for York. There is no present intention of making a public issue of stock.
  MR. LONSDALE: Can the right hon. Gentleman say what sums are lying to the credit of the Estates Commissioners?
  MR. ASQUITH: I cannot say without notice.

  Derby Day.
  MR. BOTTOMLEY: I bog to ask the Prime Minister whether, in view of the great interest taken by.Members of all Parties in the House in the working of the Street Betting Act, and of the unique opportunity afforded by the Epsom racing carnival of ascertaining in what respects the Act requires amendment or extension, he will consider the desirableness of adjourning the House over Derby Day, and thus afford Members an opportunity in the public interest of studying the matter upon the spot.
  MR. ASQUITH (for Sir H. CAMPBELL BANNERMAN): The Answer is in the negative.

Rise in the Price of Wheat.
SIR HOWARD VINCENT: I beg to ask the Prime.Minister if his attention has been called to the considerable rise in the price of American wheat since the failure of the Prime Ministers at the Imperial Conference to obtain any consideration of preference for grain grown in the Empire; and what steps he proposes to take to prevent

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the increased cost of bread falling upon the poor.
MR. CATHCART WASONasked the right hon. Gentleman whether he was familiar with the lines—
"Who fills the butchers' shops with large blue flies?
Who makes the quartern loaf and Luddites rise?"
MR. ASQUITH (for Sir H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN): I am familiar with those lines. I am aware that there has been a rise in the price of wheat, though I did not know that it was due to the proceedings of the Imperial Conference. His Majesty's Government are not prepared to regulate the price of food-stuffs or other commodities, but they propose to keep the ports of the United Kingdom open for the free importation of wheat from whatever quarter it may come.
Sir HOWARD VINCENT: Arising out of that Answer, may I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he is aware that the price of bread is now considerably higher than it was during the time the shilling registration fee was in force and when,£7,000 a day was being received by the public revenue for that registration foe, and, also, whether he is aware that the price of bread is considerably higher now than it was before the preferential door was banged, barred, and bolted?
[No Answer was returned.]

POST OFFICE SITES BILL.
Reported from the Select Committee.
Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 176.]
Minutes of the Proceedings to be printed. [No. 176.]
Bill, as amended, re-committed to a Committed of the Whole House for tomorrow, and to be printed. [Bill 220.]

PATENTS AND DESIGNS BILL.
Reported, with Amendments, from Standing Committee C.
Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 177.]
Minutes of the Proceedings of the Standing Committee to be printed. [No. 177.]
Bill, as amended (in the Standing Committee), to be considered to-morrow, and to be printed. [Bill 221.]

SELECTION (STANDING COMMITTEES).
Sir WILLIAM BRAMPTON GURDON reported from the Committee of Selection; That they had discharged the following Member from Standing Committee A (in respect of the Public Rights of Way (No. 2) Bill): Mr. Attorney-General; and had appointed in substitution (in respect of the Public Rights of Way (No. 2) Bill): Mr. Solicitor-General.
Sir WILLIAM BRAMPTON GORDON further reported from the Committee; That they had added to Standing Committee A. the following fifteen Members (in respect of the Public Rights of Way (No. 2) Bill): Mr. William Johnson, Sir Walter Nugent, Mr. William Redmond, Mr. Cheetham, Mr. Eugene Wason, Mr. Watt, Lord Robert Cecil, Mr. Rawlinson, Mr. Hills, Mr. Meysey-Thompson, Mr. Abel Thomas, Dr. Hazel, Mr. Gooch, and Mr. Beck.
Sir WILLIAM BRAMPTON GURDON further reported from the Committee; That they had added to Standing Committee A the following fourteen Members (in respect of the Municipal Elections Bill): Mr. O'Mara, Mr. M'Crae, Mr. Cleland, Mr. Barnes, Major Coates, Mr. Younger, Mr. Mooney, Mr. Mitchell-Thomson, Mr. Wood, Mr. King, Mr. Alfred Mason, Mr. Lewis Haslam, Mr. Benn, and Mr. Mallet.
Reports to he upon the Table.

NEW BILL.
  FACTORY AND WORKSHOP ACT (1901) AMENDMENT (No. 2) BILL.
  "To prohibit employment between noon on Saturday and six o'clock on Monday morning in cotton, woollen, worsted, flax, hemp, silk, jute, and paper factories, and in bleaching and dyeing works," presented by Mr. Jowett; supported by Mr. Snowden, Mr. Steadman, Mr. Wardle Mr. O'Grady, Mr. Hudson, and Mr. George Roberts; to be read a second time upon Monday next, and to be printed. [Bill 222.]

  TERRITORIAL AND RESERVE FORCES BILL.
  Considered in Committee.
  (In the Committee.)
  [Mr. EMMOTT (Oldham) in the Chair.]
  Clause 8:
  *VISCOUNT MORPETHmoved to insert after the word "Act" the words "and of the Militia Ballot Act which shall be applicable to the Territorial Force. "He said the Secretary of State had made an appeal for a nation in arms, but he had not attempted to enforce that duty upon the nation by putting into the Bill any clause which would lead the nation to recognise the duty. The other day the right hon. Gentleman made a very remarkable statement. He admitted that country was in the greatest difficulty in regard to its military institutions, owing to the system of voluntary enlistment. Successive Secretaries of State had endeavoured to overcome those difficulties with various schemes which had been put before the House. But the right hon. Gentleman had not gone to the very root of the matter. He hoped under his system to get the number of men he required, and many hon. Members shared that hope, but some of them were very sceptical on the point, and consequently desired that there should be some safeguard in the Bill upon which the Government could fall back in the event of the right hon. Gentleman's hopes failing realisation. The whole question was based upon this point: it was impossible to get trained men in time of war in sufficient numbers unless there was some compulsion in time of peace. It was not that the British citizen was unpatriotic, nor was it that ho was unwilling to serve when the necessity stared him in the face; the difficulty was one rather of want of thought. Men were not anxious in time of peace to undertake the drudgery of military instruction. Where thousands would be willing to come forward in time of war only tens, or perhaps hundreds, would come forward in time of peace and consent to undergo the drudgery which was essential for their utility in time of war. When the right hon. Gentleman threw out the hope that his scheme might be successful he forgot that other schemes which had also been heralded with high
  504
  expectations in the past had proved failures. Every device had been attempted, but all had been equally futile. The history of recruiting was an ignominious one wholly ignored in popular histories. They had tried voluntary enlistment with high bounties, and they had also tried a modified form of compulsion, but both systems had broken down. The right hon. Gentleman had told the House that he had copied the example afforded in the Parliamentary wars and had set up county associations, but he did not tell the House that that most successful army of Cromwell's was based upon a system of compulsion. Coming to later times they would find that this country carried on its wars with the aid of subsidised allies and the employment of foreign mercenaries. He knew of no great war in which this country had been engaged, barring the late South African War, in which that had not been the case. That, however, was impossible in the present day, and, therefore, the question of what they were to fall back upon in time of a great war was one which would have to be considered in a different spirit from the spirit of optimism which the right hon. Gentleman had displayed. The right hon. Gentleman had referred more than once to the Napoleonic wars, the last great European conflict in which this country was engaged. Well, it was only by putting the Ballot Act in force during that war that we were enabled to maintain a large force in the field. For the Militia was able to find drafts for the Regular Army and yet maintain its strength. But the Act had another effect at that time. The Volunteer movement, it was true, was partly due to a purely patriotic spirit, but it also originated in a desire to avoid the liability imposed by the Ballot Act. The right hon. Gentleman, in some of his speeches, had told them that in some future war we might require as many as 900,000 men. The highest total the forces of the Crown ever reached during the wars of Napoleon was about 800,000; therefore the right hon. Gentleman contemplated the possibility of Army Forces which would exceed the greatest force ever raised by 100,000. Yet he hoped to raise that force by a purely voluntary system of enlistment. He was afraid the right hon. Gentleman was doomed to disappointment. He was not asking in his Amendment that compulsion should be applied, but he was

  505
  asking that the power of compulsion should be retained in the hands of the Government, so that if it should turn out that they were not able to procure the necessary men in the way the right hon. Gentleman expected they would have some power to fall back upon. Compulsion was not, as he had endoavoured to point out, a new principle, nor was it an undemocratic principle, because it was enforced by some of the greatest democracies both in the past and in the present. Neither was it at variance with the principles of the Party opposite, because they had introduced the principle of compulsion in the matter of land purchase, and ho failed to see that it was any wore contrary to the principles of Liberalism to compel a citizen to defend his country than to acquire land under compulsion for the public service. The first argument ho wished to put forward in defence of the retention of the Ballot Act was that it was necessary, and that probably the right hon. Gentleman would not be able to provide an Army without it. The second reason was that it was the primary duty of every citizen to take part, or be liable to take part, in the defence of his country. That principle was recognised by our Colonies and by our late enemies in the field—the Boers. Thirdly, it was the only fair way to raise troops The right hon. Gentleman's Bill called upon a large number of men to serve in the Territorial Army, not for payment but from patriotism and a sense of duty. Under the Bill a largo number of men would serve, owing to a sense of patriotism, at great inconvenience and possibly loss of income, and they would see around them men who were indifferent and were unwilling to face the obligations which they themselves had readily undertaken. Therefore, the only fair way was to provide that all citizens should be equally liable to serve in the Territorial Army. Such an obligation would not encourage a spirit of what was called "militarism" or "jingoism." On t he contrary, the Auxiliary Force that would exist under such a system would be mainly civilian in spirit, and every question would be looked at from the civilian rather than the military point of view. He wished to draw attention to two points connected with the Ballot Act itself. At the present time the Secretary of State for War had to consider, not how many men he required for the Army or for
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  the Territorial Force, but how many he could raise. Under a system of compulsion he would be able to fix the establishment at what he regarded as necessary and to maintain it at that strength. The other day the right hon. Baronet the Member for the Forest of Doan said that the Ballot Act was obsolete as applied to Militia. He would be more than reluctant to differ from the right hon. Baronet, who was a well-known authority on such matters, but there were high authorities whom he had consulted who did not agree with that statement. Moreover, there was a debate in the House of Lords in 1900 when the matter came under discussion, and Lord Lansdowne then stated that the retention of the Ballot Act was a power the late Government were not willing to part with. Evidently, therefore, in the opinion of Lord Lansdowne the provisions of the Ballot Act were still applicable. Until they had a statement to the contrary from the Law Officers of the Crown they were entitled to assume that in the opinion of the present Government also the Ballot Act was still on the Statute-book and could be enforced. He frankly admitted that the Ballot Act as it stood was archaic and would have to be re-drafted and re-east. It was impossible for him on that Amendment to suggest what its provision should be, but if the Amendment wore carried it would entail the re-casting of the Act. The old Act allowed anyone who was drawn for service to obtain a substitute. He would object to any system which allowed substitutes. Those who were richer should not be allowed to buy off and compound their duty to their country by hiring men to take their place. It was rash for the Secretary of State for War to assume without any proof that he would obtain the number of men he required under the Bill, and even if he obtained them it would only be at an enormous expenditure, an expenditure far exceeding any amount yet presented to the House as the probable cost. If he were willing to base the Territorial Army upon duty to serve when the Government considered the necessities of of the country required it he would get a more efficient and vastly cheaper Army than he would get under this Bill, and he would have behind him an inexhaustible supply of men ready to fill up gaps in

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  the Army during a long campaign. He, therefore, moved the Amendment, which he believed was in consonance with the dictates of true patriotism and citizenship.
  Amendment proposed—
  "In page 8, line 11, after the word 'Act.' to insert the words ' and of the Militia Ballot Act which shall be applicable to the Territorial Force.' "—(Viscount Morpeth.)
  Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."
  *THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WAR (Mr. HALDANE, Haddington)said the noble Lord's speech showed that he had given serious consideration to this question, and had endeavoured to got at the facts and the law of the case. But he had admitted that the Militia Acts, even if they could be applied to this force, were of such a character as to work in the most unfair fashion. Those Militia Acts not only took no account of the Volunteers, but they enabled rich men to buy substitutes. If there was any proposition likely to prove more odious than another it was that a rich man should be allowed to buy a substitute. What, then, became of the proposal to apply the Militia Ballot Act to this force? The noble Lord had asked whether hon. Members on the Government side of the House could take objection to his plan of making compulsory what was the duty of the citizen. Why should that question be addressed to that side of the House? He was not sure what was the view of hon. Members opposite. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Croydon was an apostle of the objection to compulsion. How, then, was it possible to challenge the Government on this principle? No doubt they would have a clear and emphatic utterance from him upon this question. The noble Lord said they would never get this force; but was it not worth trying? The Government were asking for 300,000 men when the establishment was full. They had very nearly that number at the present time n the Yeomanry and Volunteers, and it was not extravagant to expect that such a force would come forward if a proper and satisfactory organisation were provided. At any rate, that was the view of the Government, and they wished to do
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  everything in their power to see whether this force could not be raised upon a purely voluntary footing. The Militia Acts of 1852 and 1860 were both alive and could be applied; but the view of the Government was that it was not expedient to raise the question of compulsion. There was not the smallest reason for passing the Amendment, because they did not propose to sweep away any obsolete machinery. They were not proposing to raise a force of 900,000 men, except in a case of very great emergency. What they were proposing was such a force as would give the public a sense of security, and so get rid of all the grumblings and murmurs that distracted attention from useful topics. Therefore, they did not desire to resort to machinery which could not possibly be required excepting under circumstances of such grave emergency that they might be left to take care of themselves. The Government had endeavoured to frame an organisation for a comparatively small force, and for that purpose they considered that compulsion was useless, and might be mischievous to their ends. For those reasons they could not accept the Amendment.
  MR. WYNDHAMsaid that if the Government system were voluntary, it could not be uniform. If the plan were tried upon a uniform basis it would inevitably have to be strengthened by compulsion. He thought the plan of the Government was going to fail. There was also a question of principle involved. The right hon. Gentleman said the Militia Ballot Act remained in force. That was true, and it enshrined the principle that in this country for the last thousand years it had been the duty of its inhabitants to defend it. The existing Ballot Act, however, was not only suspended, but was quite obsolete. It was possible to amend it, and an amending Bill had already been drafted and printed. It contained these words—
  "A person balloted to serve in the Militia shall not be permitted to find a substitute."
  If the Militia Ballot Act remained in force, then to whom did it apply? Under the plan of the right hon. Gentleman the Militia would be abolished. If the Militia Ballot Act were still alive, where were the men liable under it to go? Were they to go in to the Territorial

  509
  Force which the right hon. Gentleman had just said was to be on purely voluntary principle? This was another example of the vague position in which matters were left under the very vague provisions of this Bill. The Militia was to live until the county associations made some plan which was incompatible with the continued existence of the Militia as a body. That was an illustration of the difficulties in which they were placed by the very singular method of drafting pursued in the Bill. The proper course would have been to amend the Militia Act. That course, however, had not been followed. As this was a somewhat academic question, he did not propose to proceed further with it.
  VISCOUNT CASTLEREAGHsaid the Amendment involved a principle which was advocated by a great many Members at the present moment. He joined that band of isolated individuals who favoured the principle without being desirous of seeing it enforced unless it was proved to be an absolute necessity. It had not been enforced in this country for a good many years. It was obvious that if the present scheme failed the country must be involved in a position of great danger. In fact with regard to our Auxiliary Forces there would be chaos. The right hon. Gentleman was very sanguine with regard to the success of the Bill, and he declined on that account to contemplate any suggestion of failure. He could not say that he shared the right hon. Gentleman's optimistic views. Ho did not believe the men of this country would come forward in the spirit in which the Secretary for War wished they would. In saying that he did not wish to say anything against the patriotic spirit of the country, but he did not believe that the men were prepared to sacrifice a great deal for the purpose of displaying the spirit of patriotism. Consequently he welcomed the Amendment because he believed it would place in the hands of the Government a weapon which they ought to possess, and one which, if the necessity arose, they should put in force. With regard to the 300,000 men whom the right hon. Gentleman hoped would come forward, it was obvious that the conditions under which they would be asked to serve in future
  510
  would be different from those which had obtained in the past. A great many of the attractions which formerly induced the I Yeomanry and the Volunteers to join would I be absent. They knew well how recruits I joined the Regular Army. A certain percentage joined for the purpose of doing something for their country, but he believed that was a very small percentage. That was proved by the seasons at which the majority of the recruits joined. They joined because they were unable to find other employment in the labour market. He hoped the right hon. Gentleman would get the recruits he believed would come in. Under ordinary circumstances this weapon, which involved the principle of compulsion, would not be put in force, but he thought the Government should have the power of enforcing men to join the ranks for the purpose of serving their country in a time of great national emergency. That was done during the Peninsular War, and there was no reason to believe that circumstances of equal magnitude might not arise in the near future. The time might come when the Government would be at their wits' end to obtain a large number of men, and when it might be necessary to send a large force to the continent of Europe. He sincerely hoped the emergency would never arise, but he thought that the Government should be furnished with a weapon for the purpose of expanding the military forces of the country.
  *SIR SAMUEL SCOTTsaid he understood that the Secretary for War fully acknowledged that contingencies might arise when it would be necessary to enforce the Militia Ballot Act, and that at the present time it was a living Act. He understood the right hon. Gentleman to say that when the Territorial Army was created the Militia Ballot Act would die a natural death. Therefore the present Bill entirely killed the Militia Ballot Act. Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman would correct him if he was wrong.
  *MR. HALDANEsaid it did not kill it legally; so far as the Militia continued to subsist for a short time theoretically the Act would remain with vitality. But should the Militia in their present form become obsolete, then, no doubt, the Statute Law Revision Committee would regard the Act as obsolete
  MR. ASHLEYasked whether the Act would continue as far as the Irish Militia were concerned.
  *MR. HALDANEsaid they came under Part III., and would cease as Militia in the old sense.
  *SIR SAMUEL SCOTTsaid he understood, at any rate, that the Militia Ballot Act would be practically killed. He much regretted that he found himself unable to support the Amendment of the noble Lord. The right hon. Gentleman had brought forward a voluntary scheme, and he thought it only just that they should give that scheme a fair chance. Nobody knew better than the right hon. Gentleman that, if he failed to obtain the men under it, there would be and could be no alternative but compulsory service. But the right time to discuss compulsory service was when they had practical proof of the failure of the right hon. Gentleman's scheme.
  *SIR CHARLES DILKEmentioned that high legal authorities had advised successive Governments that the Militia Ballot Acts were virtually already obsolete, because they largely applied to a class of Militia which had ceased to exist.
  *MR. ARNOLD-FORSTERthought that some of the explanations given in the course of the debates had been rather obscure. He had, unfortunately, been compelled to obtain his information from the public prints, and on many points he was absolutely in the dark. He believed that that state of things prevailed inside as well as outside the House. But there could be no ambiguity about the fact now elicited by his noble friend. They had now got two unequivocal statements— first, that the Secretary for War believed that the Militia Ballot Act was a valid and subsisting Act, and, secondly, that he believed that, being a valid and subsisting Act, it ought to be put an end to. The pretence which had been put forward by some supporters of this proposal, that the Militia was not going to be destroyed, must now be abandoned. It had been stated over and over again, in speeches and in contributions to the Press, that those who said the Militia was to be destroyed were mistaken. But they now
  512
  found that so entirely was the Militia to be abolished, lock, stock, and barrel, that a set of Statutes which were valid and subsisting, which had been called into action in the past, and might easily be invoked in the future, would be struck off the Statute Book by the early efforts of the Statute Law Revision Committee because there would be nothing to which those Statutes could apply.
  *MR. HALDANEsaid he had expressly stated that this Bill did not abolish the Militia. The Militia would become obsolete in consequence of the new system set up under this Bill, and they had taken power to bring in Orders in Council to abolish Militia units if and as they pleased.
  *Mr. ARNOLD-FORSTERsaid that if ever there was a distinction without a difference, that was one. The right hon. Gentleman said he was not abolishing the Militia, but he was passing an Act which would be regarded by the Statute Law Revision Committee at an early date as having had that effect.
  *MR. McCRAEsaid the whole discussion had been on the assumption that the Militia Ballot Act, if put in operation, would compel these men to give themselves for service abroad. That was not so. If the Ballot Act were put in operation the only thing the men could be asked to do would be to serve for home defence. What was the good of that when they had in the Volunteer Act of 1863 a provision that in case of actual or apprehended invasion the whole of the Volunteer Force could be asked to serve for home defence? He thought it was immaterial whether the Ballot Act was in operation or not, since the Secretary foe War had all that ho wanted with regard to mobilisation in the Volunteer Act of 1863. The clause to which ho referred was in the following terms—
  ''Every officer and Volunteer and every N.C.O. of the Permanent Staff belonging to every Corps so called out shall lie bound to assemble as the Lieutenant of the County directs, and to march according to orders within Great Britain; and shall for the purpose of this Act, be deemed on actual military service. If any such Officer, Volunteer, or N.C.O., not incapacitated by infirmity for military service, refuses or neglects to so assemble or march, he shall be deemed a deserter."

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  They had there everything they could secure under the Ballot Act. The impression had been given outside that hon. Gentlemen opposite were anxious to continue the Ballot Act because it would enable the Government in case of war to send men to fill the first line of the Army. That was absolutely absurd.
  MR. WYNDHAMsaid the hon. Member for East Edinburgh was generally very lucid in his contributions to the debates, but in this case he was confusing two matters which were totally distinct.
  *MR. HUNTsaid he was supporting the Amendment because there was an element of compulsion in it. The hon. Member for East Edinburgh had forgotten that even the American Government could compel not only Volunteers but every man in the country to fight in its defence in case of emergency. The Secretary for War had told them that his scheme would give the people of this country a sense of security. He could not see how it could give them any possible sense of security; because the right hon. Gentleman would get neither the quantity nor the quality of men he required. The quantity of men for the Territorial Army was likely to be considerably less than it now was, and the quality to be considerably worse. After all, they had had warnings as to the dangers of invasion formal most all our great war captains from the Duke of Wellington down to Lord Roberts and Lord Wolseley. He asked the Secretary for War whether, oven if he succeeded in getting 300,000 men for his Territorial Army without the use of the ballot, he really thought that 300,000 partially trained men would be enough to protect the country from invasion? Three hundred thousand men would not be anything like enough to guard our coasts; and therefore it would be impossible to use the Navy in chasing and destroying the enemy's ships. And if we could not do that, we could not secure the necessary supplies of food for our people and of the raw material for our manufactures. That would mean that our people would be starved into submission in a very short time. The Secretary for War had gone out of his way to prevent the people of this country from learning
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  that it was their duty to join the Auxiliary Forces. He had capitulated to that section of the Government Party who did not take any notice of history; and had prevented the teaching of boys in elementary schools that it was their first duty to learn enough to defend their country in any great national emergency. So far as he could make out the right hon. Gentleman was going to try—he thought probably unsuccessfully—to get 300,000 men to take all the trouble and risk of the defence of our shores, leaving millions of able-bodied men to do nothing to make themselves of any use. He could not see that that was a scheme on Radical or democratic lines. Moreover, by the scheme of the right hon. Gentleman they wore going not only to have fewer troops but less training. It seemed to him that we were really in danger of a sudden war and of invasion every month; and the Government might very well be compared to Nero who fiddled while Rome was burning, or to Belte-shazzar who trusted to water to defend his country—and they all knew what the result of that was.
  *THE CHAIRMANsaid he hoped the hon. Member would adhere a little more closely to the Amendment.
  *MR. HUNTsaid he was sorry he had got over the line; he found it rather difficult to keep to the Amendment, but if the Chairman should find it necessary to put him down again ho would remain there. It seemed to him that this attempt to get 300,000 men for home defence without using the Ballot Act meant that with the self-deception of the ostrich the Government were sticking their heads in the mud and refusing to see the dangers to which they were exposing the country; and he believed that if the country had the chance next month they would send the Government out to grass, like Nebuchadnezzar of the swollen head. "Quem Deus vult perdire prius dementat." He hoped, however that in this case, it might be the curious conglomeration of fragmentary atoms which called itself the Liberal Party which would be destroyed and not the country.
  *THE CHAIRMANsaid that the hon. Member was not confining himself to the

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  subject matter of the Amendment before the Committee.
  MR. ARTHUR LEEsaid he did not want unnecessarily to prolong the discussion; but he was in a position of some difficulty as to how he should vote owing to the fact that he did not understand the position of the right hon. Gentleman as to the Militia Acts. The right hon. Gentleman had said that those Acts were real, vital, and living Acts, and he distinctly understood him to say that they applied to the Militia as at present constituted. If that were so, and they could be used in case of emergency, the right hon. Gentleman brought in a Bill that did away with the Militia in its present form, and by a side-wind destroyed the Militia Acts which were the safeguard of the reserve. If the right hon. Gentleman accepted that position and refused this Amendment, he supplied the Opposition with a very strong argument in favour of excluding the Militia from the scope of this Bill.
  *MR. HALDANEsaid he was against compulsion in every shape or form, and he did not want to see those Acts put in force.
  COLONEL KENYON SLANEYsaid that the right hon. Gentleman had found himself in difficulty in trying to explain why there should not be compulsion; because he admitted that he could conceive a set of circumstances under which the only alternative to national danger was to have recourse to compulsion. The right hon. Gentleman based his objection to the acceptance of the Amendment on the ground—reasonable and natural enough for him—that if this Bill were passed there would be no necessity for the grumbles and murmurs of some hon. Members about compulsory service. If he could agree with the right hon. Gentleman in that respect he might postpone further consideration of compulsion till some future time. But if that grumbling and murmuring were to cease the right hon. Gentleman must correct his scheme so as to make the country certain that he was providing an adequate force physically lit for the defence of the country. The force should be capable in regard to the physique of the men and because they
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  had boon well trained. The reason why the country was murmuring and looking to compulsion as a necessity was that this Bill, which was the last ditch between the present system and compulsion, did not provide an adequate force or give them sufficient training. He thought the right hon. Gentleman must amend his Bill in the direction proposed unless he showed that he had put aside the idea that compulsion might be necessary. It might be said that he was allying himself with the advocates of compulsory service, but ho was not. He did regret, however, that the right hon. Gentleman had not allied himself with any system for the production of national efficiency and training powers. He wondered whether his right hon. friend had noticed a curious piece of information given in print the other day by those representatives of the working classes who went through Germany, who laid it down categorically that the compulsory service in that country had been of direct advantage to the working population. That was a fact which the right hon. Gentleman might bear in mind as showing an increasing disposition in this country to recognise that some form of compulsory service was not inimical to the interests of the population or adverse to the growing desires of the people. He confessed he was not desirous of advocating immediate compulsory service in this country, but he was glad to see that the right hon. Gentleman confessed that it might become necessary, and that when it was necessary he would not shrink from it.
  SIR GILBERT PARKER:associated himself with the position taken up by the hon. Member for Fareham, although he had no doubt the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State for War would think him very stupid for doing so. He understood the right hon. Gentleman to say last night, that the Militia as it existed would to a largo extent be absorbed in the special contingent or reserve In that case the Militia Ballot Act would not apply to any of the Auxiliary Forces absorbed, and the Irish Militia would also be excluded from the possible operation of the Ballot Act while this Act remained in force. However, he might ask if any of the Militia absorbed into the Territorial Force would be liable to the operation of the Militia Ballot Act?
  *MR. HALDANE: No.
  SIR GILBERT PARKERwas glad to have it made quite clear that the Bill excluded any member of the Territorial Force from the operation of the Militia Ballot Act, His hon. friend the Member for East Edinburgh had asked what was the good of the Militia Ballot Act, because they wore already able to secure by means of the Territorial Forces what they required in cases of emergency. But the Secretary of State for War had said he was going to leave great emergencies to take care of themselves, and he was not going by this Bill to do anything to provide any safeguards for emergencies except on the principle of embodiment. He put it to the Secretary of State for War, supposing he had 700,000, 800,000 or 900,000 men, which was the number the right hon. Gentleman expected to keep up for expansion and to get from this Territorial Force, did he imagine that that force would be a Reserve providing a large number of men to go abroad? In the Napoleonic wars four out of every five men who joined the Militia subsequently entered the Regular Army. They might expect therefore that a great number of men could be brought in under the Militia Ballot Act, and that would provide a much larger number of men not only for Home defence but to go abroad. The proposal was perfectly sound and reasonable, as he thought the Minister for War would admit. What he complained of was that the Minister for War had deliberately excluded from this Bill a safeguard which had been given to this country and exercised by them for generation after generation. Did the right hon. Gentleman think it wise to throw aside a weapon which the State had placed in his hand—a time honoured weapon and a live weapon as he himself had said? What harm would it be to retain it?
  MR. HALDANE: It is a blunderbuss.
  SIR GILBERT PARKERdid not think the right hon. Gentleman's estimate of the weapon was quite in keeping with his previous utterance, which was to the effect that it was a live weapon. If it was a live weapon it could be applied. If it was applied it cast a responsibility upon the men. The only objection in principle which the right hon. Gentleman had to the Militia Ballot was that it gave the opportunity of substitution. As his
  518
  right hon. friend the Member for Dover had pointed out, it could be amended, and if his noble friend had moved his Amendment and added the words—
  "And the Militia Ballot Act; is it exists or may be amended,"
  that objection would be met. [Laughter.] Well, his drafting might not be very good, but his suggestion was perfectly sound all the same. Suppose that the right hon. Gentleman's scheme failed? He knew that the right hon. Gentleman looked upon the mere supposition as an indication of incipient lunacy on his part, but there were a great many people who were very doubtful on the subject. When the right hon. Gentleman had established his County Associations and his Territorial Army, and after he had dismissed his Militia and they had been absorbed, a reconstruction would mean a crisis in the military organisation of the country. Whatever the result of the right hon. Gentleman's scheme might be—whether it succeeded or failed—it must go on for a great many years, and he felt very strongly that if it failed in whole or in part, and we wore faced by an emergency, the right hon. Gentleman would not have done the country or the patriotism of its people justice if through the operation of this Bill he had thrown away the obligations of the Militia Ballot Act. He was not going on that occasion to advocate a compulsory system of military training although he was strongly in favour of it. If they were to look at the cases of Guernsey and Jersey the Committee would see that there they had the operation of the Militia Ballot. In Guernsey they got three times the Volunteers they wanted. Why? Because a kind of Militia Ballot Act was in force, and every employer of labour and every employee knew the fact and faced it. Therefore the people came forward as Volunteers rather than wait to be compelled. He appealed to any hon. Gentleman who knew the facts to say whether it was not the case that Guernsey could to-day get three times the number of Volunteers they wanted. That was not in consequence of a system of militarism, but it was a purely democratic policy which every Colony in the Empire either had or was about to place in its constitution. Australia was even now making it compulsory for every man to serve. He was convinced that in this matter the right

  519
  hon. Gentleman had made a mistake, and, although he thought it was too late, he heartily supported the Amendment.
  MR. ARTHUR LEEasked whether the Volunteer Act of 1863 would apply to the Territorial Force when the Volunteer Force disappeared.
  *MR. HALDANE: No, but other provisions of the same nature will.
  *SIR CHARLES DILKEpointed out that a large number of the provisions of the Militia Acts alluded to a different kind of Militia from that which was now in existence. There used to be two kinds of Militia, a general Militia and a local Militia. The local Militia had ceased to exist. The Militia Acts were therefore inapplicable in every particular to the Militia as it existed to-day. It was at one time proposed to repeal all the Acts relating to the local Militia as being obsolete, but that was not done and large portions of them were still in force although they did not apply to the present force. It was the Act of 1802 which proposed to establish a local Militia which had been described as a respectable military force under the landed proprietors of a district. Under the later Act it would be found that there was a provision by which the overseers out of parish rates had to pay half the sum currently charged for a substitute in cases of persons not possessing property of £500, and a description was given of the persons who should have the opportunity of providing substitutes. Since boards of guardians were established that system had ceased to exist. A great many of the provisions of those Acts could no longer be put in force in regard to the existing Militia, and therefore they could not be put into force in regard to the Territorial Army which it was proposed to create.
  MR. CHARLES CRAIGsaid he was afraid that he must be suffering from the incipient military lunacy alluded to by the hon. Member for Gravesend as he did not think the scheme of the Secretary for War would be a success. He did not look forward to it as being an immediate failure, because it would take many years to establish, but he believed that when it was put to a severe test, comparable with the late war in South Africa or with a great
  520
  European war, the scheme would fail as signally and totally as the other schemes which had gone before it. There was, however, at least one good point in the scheme, namely, that it did form the groundwork of a scheme of universal military service, and when the country came to its senses and saw that without a scheme of universal military service they could not consider themselves safe from any point of view it would be possible to go forward on those lines. To that extent, and from that point of view, he welcomed the Bill, but in other respects he did not think the system which the right hon. Gentleman proposed to set up would be better than the system under which they had been working for some years. Whether it would be worse was a matter upon which it would be premature for him to express an opinion, but at all events, it furnished a starting point, from which the country, when they realised what some of them had realised, what a system of makeshift the present was, could start upon a system of universal service. For these reasons he was glad that his noble friend behind him had introduced the Amendment, as it served as a distinct point at which Members could avow themselves in favour of some form of universal service and definitely state that in their opinion the voluntary system had been and always would be found wanting.
  *MR. CARLILE:supported the Amendment and said it was to be regretted that the debate must be necessarily curtailed, because a week could be usefully spent in thoroughly discussing the proposal which the Amendment involved. The Secretary of State for War had referred to the Ballot Act as inapplicable, but he was sure that the noble Lord who moved the Amendment did not desire that the Ballot Act, exactly as it stood now, should be applied in connection with the Territorial Force, but only that the right hon. Gentleman should consider whether it was possible to embody the principle in this Bill. It was the desire of everyone in the House that the Bill should be a thorough success. But it was felt that there would be a difficulty in obtaining a full establishment on the various occasions when it was needed. Therefore the noble Lord moved the Amendment to

  521
  ensure that the establishment required would be obtained if the Government at any time found it necessary to have the full strength in connection with the Territorial Force. Under the Bill those who at present were taking, and those who in the future were to take, an active part in qualifying themselves to defend their hearths and homes were subjected to certain pains and penalties. It seemed to him, however, that it was those who took no part in such matters but stood by apparently indifferent to what happened to their country in time of difficulty and stress, who should have the pains and penalties and not those who took trouble in order to qualify themselves to take part in the defence of the country. Under the proposal of the noble Lord the Government would have in time of difficulty the power to call upon every man of suitable age to take his place in assisting his fellow-citizens in the forces of the kingdom. The Amendment did not propose, as some hon. Members appeared to have thought, that the Militia Ballot Act should be put in force at once. It was only with a view of meeting an emergency which might arise that the proposal was made. In that way it would not interfere with the working of the Territorial Act or the forces raised under that Act, but would merely supplement those forces at a time of national difficulty and danger. At the present moment they were face to face with a condition of things which discouraged many from associating themselves with that which the right hon. Gentleman had submitted to the House in connection with this Bill. National prosperity alone was opposed to it, and sports and games, which seemed to take up all the thought, time, ambition, and interest of vast numbers who might qualify themselves for service in the Territorial Force, also seemed to be opposed to the people taking upon themselves any such duty. If, however, it was understood that the citizens of this country were expected to qualify themselves in this way, it could not have other than an excellent effect both physically and mentally upon the young and growing men of the country. The mere expansion of suitable provisions such as had been adumbrated would not have the effect of encouraging a love of war. He did not think that love of war was widespread in the population at all,
  522
  but there was a fear that what was called militarism would arise. Nothing could be more fatal to that spirit of militarism than the proposal of the noble Lord, and, so far from tending to foster any kind of military spirit, on every occasion when the country was threatened with a crisis or a war the Amendment would tend to the maintenance of peace, for the manifest reason that every man would be liable to be called upon, and therefore every man's interest would be in the direction of the maintenance of peace. Moreover it would constitute a protection against the difficulty which had arisen in France and Germany under their present system. There was no doubt, young men being taken from their occupations for a period of many months or for two or three years, the mere consequences of military training had the effect of killing initiative and originality in the working classes of those countries. At the present moment there was no question that the British working man was far superior to the working man in Germany or France or any other country in regard to initiative, inventive power, and enterprise generally. This proposal, which did not involve absolute military service for any considerable period, would not have any such drawback as was involved in the systems of other countries, while the physique of the population would be preserved and all their powers in the directions to which he had referred maintained to the great advantage of the industrial and other classes of the community. When they looked back upon the spirit shown by every class in the land at the time of the South African War, could they conceive for a moment that any section of society would consent to be exempt from such duties as they rightly believed ought to devolve on every able-bodied citizen in the country? Although the Amendment might not be carried that afternoon, he felt sure that the spirit and principle of the proposition would not have been placed in vain before the right hon. Gentleman, with his great and rapidly increasing knowledge of military affairs.
  *MR. MADDISONsaid he was very glad that the Secretary for War was carrying out to the full his assurances to many of them that this Bill would not be an indirect method of

  523
  getting compulsion. He could quite understand that the noble Lord and his friends opposite had some real liking for the Militia Ballot Act. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for the Forest of Dean had shown him one clause which was unrepealed.
  VISCOUNT MORPETHsaid that if the hon. Member had done him the courtesy to listen to his speech he would see that he was speaking under a total misapprehension. He had stated that the Ballot Act as it stood was archaic, and would require drastic redrafting. It was the spirit of the Militia Ballot Act which he advocated, and not the clauses.
  *MR. MADDISONsaid, with all respect to the noble Lord, he judged him by his Amendment on the Paper rather than by his speech.
  *VISCOUNT MORPETHsaid ho had expressly explained that the Militia Ballot Act should be subject to modification in the future.
  *MR. MADDISONsaid that would be a subject of separate legislation, and how could they know what modifications the noble Lord and his friends would accept or reject? Therefore, he submitted that he was within his right in reading an unrepealed clause of the Militia Ballot Act, and from that gathering something of what hon. Members were after. It was a truly appalling clause—
  "That in case any person not possessed of any estate in land, goods, or money of the clear value of £500, and who shall make oath that he is not possessed of such estate, shall be chosen by ballot to serve in the Militia for any parish, tything, or place…..the churchwardens, or overseers of the poor, of such parish, shall pay to every such person any such sum of money not exceeding one half of the current price then paid for a Volunteer."
  The clause was one long drawn out and invidious distinction.
  VISCOUNT MORPETH: May I ask which Act the hon. Member is quoting from?
  *SIR C. DILKE: The clause is unrepealed.
  *Mr. MADDISONsaid it was quite clear that if the right hon. Gentleman
  524
  were to accept the Amendment he would undoubtedly be making a very serious concession to the openly expressed desire of hon. Members for compulsion. An hon. Gentleman opposite had said he would look upon compulsory training as the triumph of the Bill into which it was introduced. On his side of the House they would regard the introduction of compulsion in any form as being reactionary and requiring vigorous resistance. He ventured to say that the right hon. Gentleman in resisting the Amendment was keeping to the voluntary character of his Bill, and for his part he should oppose the Amendment.
  COLONEL SANDYSsaid he understood that the Amendment embodied a principle of which he himself had always been very much in favour. He thought that by applying an improved Militia Ballot Act they would have very much greater power than existed at the present time for obtaining a reliable and sufficient service in time of need. The only point he would impress upon the House was that the power should not be left dormant until it was too late. They must recollect that however powerful the House of Commons might be to vote money, and to vote numbers of men, the money would be wasted, and the men would not be efficient unless time was given for training before the period of pressure came. He was speaking with knowledge of the subject, because this day fifty years ago there occurred the massacre of Cawnpore, and, as he was serving in India at that time ho had seen what these needful precautions meant in actual operation. He could quite understand the feeling of the hon. Gentleman opposite with regard to compulsory military service; but however repugnant might be the sacrifice to their preconceived notions which they might be called upon to make in order to provide an efficient defensive and fighting force, the sacrifice would be very likely to lighten what they would have to endure if, under some mistaken idea, they did not too long delay making it. Therefore, he thoroughly supported the Amendment. As the Secretary of State for War knew, he was opposed to the Bill as a whole, but he was not opposed to it in so far as it afforded a basis for legislation which would furnish the counrty with a sufficient, and to some extent properly trained force for

  525
  use in the hour of need. But why was it necessary to break down the well-recognised military lines on which the Army had been constituted?
  THE CHAIRMANsaid the hon. and

  AYES.

  Acland-Hood, RtHnSir Alex.F.

  Faber, George Denison (York)

  Randles, Sir John Scurrah

  Arnold-Forster, Rt. Hn.HughO.

  Faber, Capt. W. V. (Hants, W.)

  Remnant, James Farquharson

  Aubrey-Fletcher.Rt. Hn. SirH.

  Fardell, Sir T. George

  Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall)

  Balcarres, Lord

  Fell, Arthur

  Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool)

  Baldwin, Alfred

  Fletcher, J, S.

  Salter, Arthur Clavell

  Balfour, Rt. Hn. A.J.(City Lond.

  Gardner, Ernest (Berks, East)

  Sandys, Lieut.-Col. Thos.Myles

  Banbury, Sir Frederick George

  Harrison-Broadley, H. B.

  Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert

  Barrie, H.T. (Londonderry, N.)

  Hay, Hon. Claude George

  Sheffield, Sir BerkeleyGeorge D.

  Beckett, Hon. Gervase

  Helmsley, Viscount

  Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)

  Bignold, Sir Arthur

  Hervey.F. W.F. (BuryS. Edm'ds

  Starkey, John R.

  Bowles, G. Stewart

  Hill, Sir Clement (Shrewsbury)

  Stone, Sir Benjamin

  Bridgeman, W. Clive

  Hills, J. W.

  Talbot, Lord E. Chichester)

  Bull, Sir William James

  Houston, Robert Paterson

  Thomson, W.Mitchell-(Lanark)

  Butcher, Samuel Henry

  Hunt, Rowland

  Thornton, Percy M.

  Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

  Kennaway, Rt. Hn. Sir JohnH.

  Valentia, Viscount

  Castlereagh, Viscount

  Kimber, Sir Henry

  Walrond, Hon. Lionel

  Cavendish, Rt. Hn. Victor C.W.

  King, SirHenrySeymour (Hull)

  Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.)

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Lee, Arthur H.(Hants.,Fareham

  Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

  Chamberlain, RtHn. J.A.(Wore.

  Liddell, Henry

  Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm

  Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry

  Lockwood, Rt.Hn.Lt.-Col. A.R.

  Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-

  Courthope, G. Loyd

  Long, Col. CharlesW.(Evesham

  Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

  Craig, Chas. Curtis (Antrim, S.)

  Lonsdale, John Brownlee

  Craig, Capt. James (Down, E.)

  Marks, H. H. (Kent)

  Craik, Sir Henry

  Mildmay, Francis Bingham

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—

  Dixon-Hartland, Sir FredDixon

  Parker, Sir Gilbert (Gravesend)

  Viscount Morpeth and Mr. Carlile.

  Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

  Parkes, Ebenezer

  Duncan, Robert(Lanark,Govan

  Percy, Earl

  NOES.

  Abraham, William (Rhondda)

  Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn

  Davies, W. Howell (Bristol, S.)

  Acland, Francis Dyke

  Burns, Rt. Hon. John

  Dewar, Arthur (Edinburgh, S.)

  Alden, Percy

  Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas

  Dickinson, W.H.(St.Pancras,N.

  Allen, A.Acland (Christchurch)

  Buxton, Rt. Hn. SydneyCharles

  Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.

  Allen, Charles P. (Stroud)

  Byles, William Pollard

  Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

  Ashton, Thomas Gair

  Cairns, Thomas

  Duncan.C. (Barrow-in-Furness)

  Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth)

  Cameron, Robert

  Dunne. Major E. Martin (Walsall

  Baker, Joseph A. (Finsbury, E.)

  Carr-Gomm, H. W.

  Edwards, Frank (Radnor)

  Barker, John

  Causton, Rt. Hn. Richard Knight

  Elibank, Master of

  Barlow, Jno. Emmott (Somerset)

  Cawley, Sir Frederick

  Ellis, Rt. Hon. John Edward

  Barlow, Percy (Bedford)

  Chance, Frederick William

  Erskine, David C.

  Barry, Redmond J. (Tyrone, N.)

  Channing, Sir Francis Allston

  Essex, R. W.

  Beck, A. Cecil

  Cheetham, John Frederick

  Esslemont, George Birnie

  Bell, Richard

  Clough, William

  Evans, Samuel T.

  Bellairs, Carlyon

  Clynes, J. R.

  Everett, R. Lacey

  Benn, Sir J. Williams (Devonp'rt

  Coats,Sir T.Glen (Renfrew,W.)

  Fenwick, Charles

  Bennett, E. N.

  Collins, Stephen (Lambeth)

  Findlay, Alexander

  Berridge, T. H. D.

  Cooper, G. J.

  Foster, Rt. Hon. Sir Walter

  Bethell,Sir J.H.(Essex,Romf'rd

  Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow)

  Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

  Bethell, T. R. (Essex, Maldon)

  Corbett,C.H(Sussex,E.Grinst'd

  Fuller, John Michael F.

  Billson, Alfred

  Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.

  Fullerton, Hugh

  Bowerman, C. W.

  Cory, Clifford John

  Gardner, Col. Alan (Hereford,S.)

  Brace, William

  Cotton, Sir H. J. S.

  Gibbs, G. A. (Bristol, West)

  Bramsdon, T. A.

  Cowan, W. H.

  Gill, A. H.

  Branch, James

  Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth)

  Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herbert Jn.

  Brigg, John

  Crombie, John William

  Glover, Thomas

  Bright, J. A.

  Crooks, William

  Goddard, Daniel Ford

  Brocklehurst, W. B.

  Crosfield, A. H.

  Gooch, George Peabody

  Brodie, H. C.

  Crossley, William J.

  Grant, Corrie

  Brooke, Stopford

  Davies, David (MontgomeryCo.

  Greenwood, G. (Peterborough)

  Brunner, J.F.L. (Lanes., Leigh)

  Davies, Ellis William (Eifion)

  Greenwood, Hamar (York)

  Bryce, J. Annan

  Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardigan

  Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill

  gallant Gentleman was not now addressing himself to the Amendment.
  Question put.
  The Committee divided:—Ayes, 75; Noes, 261. (Division List No. 202.)

  Gulland, John W.

  M'Kenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald

  Seely, Major J. B.

  Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

  M'Laren, H. D. (Stafford, W.)

  Shackleton, David James

  Haldane, Rt. Hon. Richard B.

  Maddison, Frederick

  Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)

  Hall, Frederick

  Mallet, Charles E.

  Sherwell, Arthur James

  Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Lewis

  Marnham, F. J.

  Shipman. Dr. John G.

  Hardy, George A. (Suffolk)

  Massie, J.

  Silcock, Thomas Ball

  Harmsworth, Cecil B. (Worc'r)

  Masterman, C. F. G.

  Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie

  Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale)

  Micklem, Nathaniel

  Soames, Arthur Wellesley

  Harvey, W.E. (Derbyshire,N. E.

  Molteno, Percy Alport

  Stanley, Hn. A. Lyulph (Chesh.)

  Harwood, George

  Mond, A.

  Steadman, W. C.

  Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth)

  Money, L. G. Chiozza

  Stewart, Halley (Greenock)

  Haworth, Arthur A.

  Morgan, G. Hay (Cornwall)

  Strachey, Sir Edward

  Hedges, A. Paget

  Morton, Alphcus Cleophas

  Straus, B. S. (Mile End)

  Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

  Myer, Horatio

  Summerbell, T.

  Henry, Charles S.

  Napier, T. B.

  Sutherland, J. E.

  Herbert, Colonel Ivor (Mon. S.)

  Newnes, Sir George (Swansea)

  Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth)

  Herbert, T. Arnold (Wycombe)

  Nicholson, Chas. N. (Doncast'r

  Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)

  Higham, John Sharp

  Norton, Capt. Cecil William

  Tennant, Sir Edward (Salisbury

  Hobart, Sir Robert

  Nussey, Thomas Willans

  Tennant, H. J. (Berwickshire)

  Hobhouse, Charles E. H.

  Nuttall, Harry

  Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.

  Holland, Sir William Henry

  O'Donnell, C. J. (Walworth)

  Thomasson, Franklin

  Holt, Richard Durning

  O'Grady, J.

  Thorne, William

  Hope, John Deans (Fife, West)

  Parker, James (Halifax)

  Torrance, Sir A. M.

  Horniman, Emslie John

  Partington, Oswald

  Toulmin, George

  Horridge, Thomas Gardner

  Paul, Herbert

  Trevelyan, Charles Philips

  Hudson, Walter

  Pearce, Robert (Staffs., Leek)

  Ure, Alexander

  Idris, T. H. W.

  Pearce, William (Limehouse)

  Walton, Sir John L. (Leeds, S.)

  Illingworth, Percy H.

  Pease,Herbert Pike( Darlington

  Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

  Jacoby, Sir James Alfred

  Philipps,J. Wynford (Pembroke

  Ward, John(Stoke-upon-Trent)

  Johnson, John (Gateshead)

  Pirie, Duncan V.

  Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid.)

  Johnson, W. (Nuneaton)

  Pollard, Dr.

  Wardle, George J.

  Jones, Sir D. Brynmor (Swansea

  Price C. E. (Edinb'gh,Central)

  Waring, Walter

  Jones, Leif (Appleby)

  Price, Robert John(Norfolk, E.)

  Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan)

  Jones, William (Carnarvonshire

  Priestley, Arthur (Grantham)

  Wason, John Cathcart(Orkney)

  Jowett, F. W.

  Pullar, Sir Robert

  Waterlow, D. S.

  Kearley, Hudson E.

  Radford, G. H.

  Watt, Henry A.

  Kekewich, Sir George

  Rainy, A. Rolland

  Weir, James Galloway

  Kitson, Rt. Hon. Sir James

  Raphael, Herbert H.

  White, George (Norfolk)

  Laidlaw, Robert

  Rea, Russell (Gloucester)

  White, J. D. (Dumbartonshire)

  Lamb, Ernest H. (Rochester)

  Rea, Walter Russell (Scarboro'

  White, Luke (York, E.R.)

  Lambert, George

  Rees, J. D.

  Whitehead, Rowland

  Lamont, Norman

  Richards, Thomas (W.Monm'th

  Whitley, John Henry (Halifax)

  Lehmann, R. C.

  Richards, T.F.(Wolverh'mpton

  Whittaker, Sir Thomas Palmer

  Levy, Maurice

  Robertson, SirG.ScottfBradf'rd

  Wiles, Thomas

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside)

  Williams. J. (Glamorgan)

  Lloyd-George, Rt. Hon. David

  Robson, Sir William Snowdon

  Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R.)

  Lough, Thomas

  Runciman, Walter

  Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)

  Luttrell, Hugh Fownes

  Russell, T. W.

  Wilson, P. W. (St. Pancras, S.)

  Lyell, Charles Henry

  Rutherford, V. H. (Brentford)

  Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)

  Lynch, H. B.

  Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)

  Winfrey, R.

  Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester)

  Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel)

  Yoxall, James Henry

  Macdonald,J.M. (Falkirk B'ghs

  Schwann, Sir C.E. (Manchester)

  Mackarness, Frederic C.

  Scott,A.H.(Ashton under-Lyne

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr. Whiteley and Mr. J.A.

  Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.

  Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

  Pease.

  Macpherson, J. T.

  Sears, J. E.

  M'Callum, John M.

  Seaverns, J. H.

  M'Crae, George

  Seddon, J.

  *MR. ASHLEYmoved to insert the words "Provided that no man shall be enlisted for any duties for which he is not physically fit." He thought that any man who had had experience with the Regulars and the Auxiliary Forces would agree that such a proviso was necessary. He desired to elicit from the right hon. Gentleman some explanation as to the standard of physical fitness he proposed to impose. Was the standard of physical fitness to apply to foreign or home service?
  528
  It seemed to him that the Territorial Force would be of very little use unless they were allowed to use it oversea. There was Clause 12, which the right hon. Gentleman on the previous day had attempted to minimise; but perhaps later on it might be found to be of more use in time of need than the Party opposite seemed to think. What standard did the right hon. Gentleman propose to set up to ensure that the Territorial Force would be fit to defend the country or to repel a

  529
  serious raid? He had had the privilege of serving His Majesty in the Militia Forces, and although he found that all ranks were animated with the greatest desire to defend their country, there wore men in the force who were not fit to go on active service, either at home or abroad. The country ought not to be asked by any War Minister to pay for a man who was not able to perform all the duties required of him. Under the present regulations there was some excuse, because there was a great temptation to keep within the ranks men who did not come up to the required physical standard, and they were obliged to permit a certain number of men in the ranks who were not able to carry out their duties efficiently. He might be asked why he wished to impose this severe test when he had not, in regard to the Army Annual Bill, made any such proposals with respect to the Regular Forces. His reply to that would be that the soldier in the Regular Forces lived all the year round in barracks under the eye of his company officer or colour-sergeant and medical officer. Frequently the Regular soldier went out for training and took part in manœuvres, and any serious ailment must come to the notice of the medical officer. But the Territorial soldier would only be for fifteen days in the year under the eye of the military authorities, and if any serious physical infirmity existed he would go to his own medical adviser, and knowledge of it would not come to the ears of the military authorities. Unless some special regulations were issued there was no reason to suppose that those who were medically unfit would ever be found out. He suggested that there should be a reasonably strict medical examination on enlistment and that there shall be another on embodiment. If a Territorial soldier missed two consecutive trainings of fifteen days each he should be compelled to undergo a medical examination. If a man missed the training for two years, the presumption would be that his absense was duo to some physical defect, and therefore an examination by a medical officer was necessary. He had put the case with moderation, but the right hon. Gentleman had gone very much further than he had done. Talking on the efficiency certificate of the Volunteers in the past, the right hon. Gentlemen in the
  530
  course of the debate, on Wednesday last, said—
  "The certificate is of an extremely general character. A man might be old and he might be toothless. You produce the man and you get the capitation grant."
  Could there be a better justification for the Amendmant than that?
  Amendment proposed—
  "In page 8, line 14, at the end, to insert the words "Provided that no man shall be enlisted for any duties for which he is not physically fit.' "—(Mr. Ashley.)
  Amendment proposed, "That those words be there inserted."
  *MR HALDANEsaid it was true that he used the expression which the hon. Gentleman had referred to. He was then speaking of men who had got into the force, and who, remaining in it, had grown into the condition which he described. But it was not the case that with the Volunteers there was no examination. On the contrary, he believed that that examination was not altogether of an informidable character.
  *MR. ASHLEY: You said that some of the men are old and toothless.
  *Mr. HALDANE: Even the best of us became old and toothless. There was a test now, and it was intended in the future to have a test, possibly a bettor organised and more severe test than now. But the Government did not wish to lay down any such test of disability as that which the hon. Gentleman proposed. Who was to settle that a man was not physically fit? By what test of law was he to be adjudged incapable? He assumed that all the hon. Gentleman meant was to raise the question of having a standard. He agreed that there must be a standard. He did not at present tie himself as to what it was to be. There was a different standard for different corps in the Regular Army, and so there might be a different standard for different arms in the Territorial Force. Only experience could guide them as to what it should be.
  SIR HOWARD VINCENT,:referring to the return of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Croydon, said they were

  531
  delighted to see the right hon. Gentleman, and hoped he might be able to remain during the rest of their discussions on the Army Bill. The hon. Member who moved the Amendment had fired off the old fallacies about insufficient medical inspection of Volunteers and about commanding officers accepting men in order to obtain the capitation grant. There was not a word of substance in the statement. Commanding officers of Volunteers desired for their own sake always to have the most effective and efficient men, because if they enrolled inferior and indifferent men they would receive a great reduction in the capitation grant. It should be remembered that the grant was not. 30s. but only 10s. for third-class shots and inefficient men. Volunteer recruits were not only medically examined on enrolment, but were subject to the inspection of the adjutant, who was a perfectly independent officer for purposes of recruiting, and the commanding officer could not accept men who did not comply with the War Office requirements. The recruits were always separately inspected by the inspecting officer, and if he found that the men were of insufficient physique—wholly apart from eyesight, on which the capitation grant absolutely depended—he would call upon the commanding officer and the adjutant to explain how these men of defective physique had been admitted. He knew there had been many allegations on this point, but they had never been proved in the slightest degree. There was a very much smaller number of rejections of men of the Volunteer force than of the Regulars in regard to fitness to take the field. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Dover when Under-Secretary stated that no less than 36½per cent. of the Regular Army—men who had been enlisted for regular service—were prior to the South African campaign rejected as unfit for field service and retained at home. No such percentage as that had occurred as regards the Volunteer force, and he regretted that his hon. friend had dished up this old chestnut.
  *MR. ARNOLD-FORSTERthanked his hon. and gallant friend the Member for the Central Division of Sheffield for his kind reference to himself. He welcomed the promise given by the Secretary of State for War that this question would not
  532
  escape his notice. He did not altogether agree with his hon. and gallant friend; but he thought the mover of the Amendment went a little too far. What he asked was that the men who wore willing to leave the country should be fit to serve in time of war. Was it not going a great deal too far to say that those men were likely to be immune from those evils which overtook the men in the Regular Army? It was not fair. His hon. friend had no right to suppose that the Volunteers of the Territorial Army would be immune from the afflictions which often existed in the case of the Regular Army. His hon. friend had spoken of this question having been raised before. It had been raised before, but he would remind the Committee of the point on which inquiry was made. At the time it was urged by Members of the House that there should bean inquiry as to whether the Volunteers could be relied upon for foreign service and as to their fitness for service abroad. It was not quite a matter of physical standard as the hon. Gentleman had suggested. That had nothing to do with it. It was a question of physical fitness— whether they were of such sound health as to be able to undertake the rigours of a campaign. It did not really matter whether they fought at home or abroad. He had read an account of what took place when the French were fighting on their own soil and under conditions as favourable as ever could prevail in a country fighting for its existence. He had read nothing to lead him to suppose that a weak constitution was permissible in the case of troops fighting under such circumstances at home or anywhere else. He did not think it was unwise that the inquiry had been made. He repeated what ho had said before, that the Volunteer officers behaved in this matter with immense public spirit. The inquiry was to ascertain what was the state of preparation of the Volunteer Force, and whether they were physically fit from the point of view of active service. The Volunteer officers themselves in most cases led the way in undertaking the examination. There were 180,000 men examined. Let it not be be supposed that the examination was one which imposed a high standard, or that there was any question of demanding that they should come up to some impossible standard. The demand made

  533
  was very light. The inquiry was to ascertain whether the men between the ages of nineteen and forty-live came up to the requirements laid down, not for the Regular Army, but in the Volunteer regulations—whether the men were of sound constitution and free from organic disease; and the result was that 29,000 men were reported by their own commanding officers as not coming within that category.
  MAJOR SEELY: Will the right hon. Gentleman say how many were under age?
  *MR. ARNOLD-FORSTERsaid he could not tell the hon. Gentleman at present; the present total was over 60,000, but the question did not seem relevant to this matter. The disqualifications wore in many cases strangulated hernia and heart disease. There were many cases of men serving who really ought not to be serving at all. Owing to the assistance of the capitation grant there wore very strong reasons for retaining these men in the force under the old conditions. It did not follow that because a man had strangulated hernia he was not a first-class shot. He might be able to earn the capitation grant, and there was, therefore, a motive for retaining unfit men in the force. If the whole of the Volunteer force had been examined no less than 40,000 men would have come within this category. Was it a desirable thing to delude themselves in a matter of this kind? He admitted that what the right hon. Gentleman said yesterday put a different complexion on the matter to a certain extent. He had always believed, and he thought many of them had been led to believe, I hat among other purposes the Territorial Force would serve as a great reservoir for the expansion of the Regular Army in time of war. He had before him a speech made by the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs who took the view which, he understood, was originally taken by the Secretary of State for War. The Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs said that in any modern war a nation required an Army capable of very large expansion; and after citing the case of Japan, he went on to ask how we were to get those, larger numbers as quickly as possible in case of war, adding that the only way
  534
  was to get them from the Volunteers, and that the Volunteers must be made to fool that their system was the national system, and that if this country was over attacked the nation would be able to use all its resources and united energies in defence of the Empire If that stood it was absolutely imperative that there should be a careful examination of the kind referred to in the Amendment. It was no answer to say that the Volunteers were examined when they joined. He thought that in some cases that, examination was somewhat perfunctory. The hon. Gentleman had spoken of the Regular Army, but if ho looked at the annual return he would find that tens of thousands of men after enlistment left the Army after two or throe years because they were unfit for active service. He thought that that was very deplorable, and he was glad to think that the right hon. Gentleman was continuing the number of medical rejections. That was the true way of avoiding the waste of the Army. But let it not be supposed that unsuitable men did not leave the Army. They did in thousands. Every military authority knew that it was not only useless but dangerous to take into the field men who were incapable of active exertion or of conforming to the modest requirements necessary in connection with inarching and manœuvres. He understood that the men were to be enlisted for a period of four years; and if they could not enforce any regular medical inspection every year during that term of four years, some steps should betaken on re-enlistment to see whether the men were physically fit. Was not that a reasonable demand? A very largo sum of money was being voted for the maintenance of the Volunteers, and unless they were capable of fighting there was no justification for maintaining them. They all knew that there were in the Volunteer force men who, although in good health when they joined the force, might not at the end of their four years service be able to undertake the hardships which might be imposed upon them. And yet the commanding officer could not get rid of such men so long as they complied with the other conditions of service regulations promulgated by the War Office, He hoped the right hon. Gentleman would carry out the indication he had given of his intention to put a very serious construction on this matter. If it was

  535
  contemplated that these men were to serve abroad, then we must take the precaution, which every other country took, of ascertaining their fitness to go abroad. It was for that reason that he would support the Amendment of his hon. friend.
  *MR. MCCRAEsaid that on the previous day he had ventured to express his regret at the absence of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Croydon, and he wished to congratulate him on his presence in the House to-day. He could not understand what was the object of the Amendment. At the present time no Volunteer was enrolled until he had been subjected to medical examination. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Croydon had issued the unfortunate circular as to medical examination, but to-day the right hon. Gentleman had tried to minimise the demands made therein. The objection of the Volunteers was that the test sought to be imposed on them was more severe than that applied to soldiers of the Line. What the right hon. Gentleman asked from the Volunteers was fitness for service abroad; but on his own showing to-day he asked for a test of fitness for men of nineteen years of age. But the right hon. Gentleman knew that for the Auxiliary Forces men were enlisted before they were nineteen years of age, and that if they were not recruits would not be obtained. The right hon. Gentleman had said that age did not come in at all. But age did come in, and that youths of seventeen should have the same physical fitness as men of nineteen years of age. The right hon. Gentleman had also skipped very lightly over the question of teeth, but many men were cast out on the question of indifferent teeth. The figures the right hon. Gentleman quoted were produced in rather an extraordinary way. Many commanding officers felt that the demand which the right hon. Gentleman was making on them was one which did not come within the terms of service of their men, who were enrolled for service at home, and not for active service abroad, and that therefore the demand was unconstitutional. When his regiment was in camp he himself put his men through the examination;

  AYES.

  Acland-Hood, Rt. Hn. SirAlex.F

  Anstruther-Gray, Major

  Aubrey-Fletcher.Rt Hn. Sir H.

  Anson, Sir William Reynell

  Arnold-Forster.Rt.Hn.HughO.

  Balcarres, Lord

  but they had always in camp a very large number of young recruits, and therefore the comparison was very unfair. What happened? Many of these young men did not come up to the standard of the right hon. Gentleman. But what did they do? Two days after arrival in camp they were turned out with the Regular troops for a night march, which extended to fifteen miles, and thereafter engaged at half past three in the morning in field operations without a break, but not one man of his battalion fell out. And yet many of these young men did not come up to the standard of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Croydon. No Volunteer commanding officer would object to any reasonable standard of efficiency in so far as physical fitness was concerned, but he insisted that it should not be demanded that youths of seventeen should be subjected to the same test of physical fitness as to chest-measurement and height as men of nineteen years of age, which the right hon. Gentleman ought to impose.
  SIR GILBERT PARKER:held that the principle of examination for physical fitness should be embodied in the Bill, and not in regulations to be made under the Bill. His argument was that this Act should become part of the history of the nation, and he could not understand why the right hon. Gentleman objected to embodying in it the words of the Amendment. Presumably the regulations might be altered in many respects, but he could not see why the right hon. Gentleman should have any objection to accept an Amendment which would secure for ever a standard of physical fitness in what was to be the greatest force for our home defence.
  *MR. HALDANE:hoped that the Committee would come to a decision on this question, the discussion of which had been conducted in such a business-like fashion, in order that other important points might be fully considered.
  Question put.
  The Committee divided:—Ayes, 95; Noes, 248. (Division List No. 203.)

  Baldwin, Alfred

  Fardell, Sir T. George

  Rawlinson, JohnFrederick Peel

  Balfour,Rt. Hn. A.J.(CityLond.

  Fell, Arthur

  Remnant, James Farquharson

  Banbury, Sir Frederick George

  Fletcher, J. S.

  Roberts,S.(Sheffield, Ecclesall)

  Baring, Capt. Hn.G.(Winchester

  Forster, Henry William

  Ruthsrford, John (Lancashire)

  Barrie, H. T. (Londonderry,N)

  Gardner, Ernest (Berks, East)

  Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool)

  Beckett, Hon. Gervase

  Gibbs, G. A. (Bristol, West)

  Salter, Arthur Clavell

  Bignold, Sir Arthur

  Hay, Hon. Claude George

  Sandys, Lieut.-Col. Thos.Myles

  Bowles, G. Stewart

  Helmsley. Viscount

  Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert

  Boyle, Sir Edward

  Hervey, F.W.F.(BnryS.Edm'ds

  Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

  Bridgeman, W. Clive

  Hill,SirClemont(Shrewsbury)

  Seddon, J.

  Bull, Sir William James

  Hills, J. W.

  Sheffield, Sir Berkeley George D.

  Burdett-Coutts, W.

  Houston, Robert Paterson

  Smith, F.E.(Liverpool, Walton)

  Butcher. Samuel Henry

  Hunt, Rowland

  Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)

  Carlile, E. Hildred

  Kennaway.Rt.Hon.Sir John H.

  Starkey, John R.

  Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

  Kenyon-Slaney.Rt. Hon.Col.W.

  Stone, Sir Benjamin

  Castlereagh, Viscount

  Kimber, Sir Henry

  Talbot, Lord K. (Chichester)

  Cave, George

  King.Sir HenrySeymour (Hull)

  Talbot,Rt.Hn.J.G.(Oxf'dUniv)

  Cavendish, Rt. Hon. VictorC.W.

  Lee,ArthurH.(Hants,Fareham)

  Thomson,W.Mitchell- (Lanark)

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Minor)

  Liddell, Henry

  Thorne, William

  Chamberlain,Rt Hn. J. A.(Wore.

  Lockwood, Rt. Hn. Lt.-col. A. R.

  Thornton, Percy M.

  Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry

  Long, Col. Chas. W. (Evesham)

  Valentia, Viscount

  Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow)

  Lonsdale, John Brownlee

  Vincent, Sir Col. C. E. Howard

  Courthope, G. Loyd

  Mildmay, Francis Bingham

  Walrond, Hon. Lionel

  Craig, Chas. Curtis (Antrim,S.)

  Morpeth, Viscount

  Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

  Craig. Capt. James (Down, E.)

  Muntz, Sir Philip A.

  Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm

  Craik, Sir Henry

  O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens

  Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

  Dixon-Hartland,Sir Fred Dixon

  Parkes, Ebenezer

  Younger, George

  Douglas. Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

  Percy, Earl

  Dancan, Robt. (Lanark, Govan)

  Powell. Sir Francis Sharp

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr.

  Faber, George Denison (York)

  Randles, Sir John Scurrah

  Ashley and Sir Gilbert

  Faber, Capt. W. V. (Hants, W.)

  Ratcliff,.Major R. F.

  Parker.

  NOES.

  Abraham. William (Rhondda)

  Cameron, Robert

  Findlay, Alexander

  Acland, Francis Dyke

  Carr-Gomm, H. W.

  Foster, Rt. Hon. Sir Walter

  Agnew, George William

  Causton,Rt. Hn. RichardKnight

  Fowler, Rt. Hon. Fir Henry

  Allen, A. Acland-(Christchurch)

  Cawley, Sir Frederick

  Fuller, John Michael F.

  Allen, Charles P. (Stroud)

  Chance, Frederick William

  Fullerton, Hugh

  Armstrong. W. C. Heaton

  Cheetham, John Frederick

  Gardner. Col. Alan(Hereford,S.

  Ashton, Thomas Gair

  Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R.

  Gill, A. H.

  Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth)

  Cleland, J. W.

  Gladstone. Rt. Hn.HerbertJohn

  Baker, JosephA.(Finsbury, E.)

  Clough, William

  Glover, Thomas

  Barlow, JohnEmmott (Somerset

  Clynes, J. R.

  Goddard, Daniel Ford

  Barlow, Percy (Bedford)

  Coats. Sir T.Glen(Renfrew, W.)

  Gooch, George Peabody

  Barry, Redmond J.(Tyrone,N.)

  Collins, Stephen (Lambeth)

  Grant, Corrie

  Beck, A. Cecil

  Collins.Sir Wm. J. (S. Pancras)

  Greenwood, G. (Peterborough)

  Bell, Richard

  Cooper, G. J.

  Greenwood, Hamar (York)

  Bellairs, Carlyon

  Corbett,C.H.(Sussex,E.Grinst'd

  Gulland, John W.

  Benn,SirJ.Williams(Devonp'rt

  Cory, Clifford John

  Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

  Benn,W.(T'wrHamlets,S.Geo.

  Cotton, Sir H. J. S.

  Haldane, Rt. Hon. Richard B.

  Berridge, T. H. D.

  Cowan, W. H.

  Hall, Frederick

  Bethell,SirJ.H.(Essex, Romf'rd

  Craig, Herbert J.(Tynemouth)

  Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Lewis

  Bethell, T. R. (Essex, Muldon)

  Crombie, John William

  Hardy, George A. (Suffolk)

  Billson, Alfred

  Crooks, William

  Harmsworth, Cecil B. (Worc'r)

  Bowerman, C. W.

  Crossley, William J

  Hart-Davies, T.

  Brace, William

  Davies, David(Montgomery Co.

  Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale)

  Bramsdon, T. A.

  Davies, Ellis William (Eifion)

  Harvey,W. E. (Derbyshire, N.E.

  Branch, James

  Dewar, Arthur (Edinburgh, S.)

  Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth)

  Brigg, John

  Dickinson, W.H.(St.Pancras,N.

  Haworth, Arthur A.

  Bright. J. A.

  Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P. I

  Hedges, A. Paget

  Brocklehurst, W. B.

  Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

  Hemmerde, Edward George

  Brodie, H. C.

  Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness

  Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

  Brooke, Stopford

  Dunne, Major E. Martin(Walsall)

  Herbert, Colonel Ivor (Mon., S.)

  Brunner,J.F.L.(Lancs., Leigh)

  Edwards, Frank (Radnor)

  Herbert, T. Anold(Wycombe)

  Bryce, J. Annan

  Elibank, Master of

  Higham, John Sharp

  Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn

  Erskine, David C.

  Hobart, Sir Robert

  Burns, Rt. Hon. John

  Essex, R. W.

  Hobhouse, Charles E. H.

  Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas

  Esslemont, George Birnie

  Holland, Sir William Henry

  Buxton,Rt. Hn.Sydney Charles

  Evans, Samuel T.

  Holt, Richard Durning

  Byles, William Pollard

  Everett, R. Lacey

  Hope. John Deans (Fife. West)

  Cairns, Thomas

  Fenwick, Charles

  Horaiman, Emslie John

  538

  539

  Hudson, Walter

  Myer, Horatio

  Spicer, Sir Albert

  Illingworth, Percy H.

  Napier, T. B.

  Stanley,Hn. A. Lyulph(Chesh.)

  Jacoby, Sir James Alfred

  Newnes, Sir George (Swansea)

  Steadman, W. C.

  Johnson, John (Gateshead)

  Nicholson,Charles N(Doncast'r

  Stewart, Halley (Greenock)

  Johnson, W. (Nuneaton)

  Norton, Capt. Cecil William

  Strachey, Sir Edward

  Jones, Sir D. Brynmor(Swansea

  Nussey, Thomas Willans

  Straus, B. S. (Mile End)

  Jones, Leif (Appleby)

  Nuttall, Harry

  Strauss, E. A. (Abingdon)

  Jones, William (Carnarvonshire)

  O'Donnell, C. J. (Walworth)

  Summerbell, T.

  Jowett, F. W.

  O'Grady, J.

  Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth)

  Kearley, Hudson E.

  Parker, James (Halifax)

  Taylor, Theodore C.(Radclide)

  King, Afred John (Knutsford)

  Partington, Oswald

  Tennant,Sir Edward(Salisbury

  Laidlaw, Robert

  Paul, Herbert

  Tennant, H. J. (Berwickshire)

  Lamb, Ernest H. (Rochester)

  Pearce, Robert (Staffs. Leek)

  Thomas,Sir A.(Glamorgan, E.)

  Lambert, George

  Pearce, William (Limehouse)

  Thomasson, Franklin

  Lamont, Norman

  Philipps,J. Wynford(Pembroke

  Torrance, Sir A. M.

  Layland-Barratt, Francis

  Pickersgill, Edward Hare

  Toulmin, George

  Lehmann, R. C.

  Pirie Duncan V.

  Ure, Alexander

  Levy, Maurice

  Price, C. E. (Edinb'gh,Central)

  Verney, F. W.

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Price Robert John(Norfolk E.)

  Walters, John Tudor

  Lloyd-George, Rt. Hon. David

  Priestley, Arthur (Grantham)

  Walton.Sir John L.(Leeds,S.)

  Lough, Thomas

  Pullar, Sir Robert

  Ward, John (Stoke upon Trent)

  Lupton, Arnold

  Radford, G. H.

  Ward, W. Dudley (Southampton

  Luttrell, Hugh Fownes

  Rainy, A. Rolland

  Wardle, George J.

  Lyell, Charles Henry

  Raphael, Herbert H.

  Waring, Walter

  Lynch, H. B.

  Rea, Russell (Gloucester)

  Wason, Eugene( Clackmannan)

  Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester)

  Rees, J. D.

  Wason, John Cathcart(Orkney)

  Macdonald,J.M.(Falkirk B'ghs

  Richards T. F.(Wolverh'mpt'n

  Waterlow, D. S.

  Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.

  Robertson.SirG Scott(Bradf'rd

  Watt, Henry A.

  Macpherson, J. T.

  Robertson J. M. (Tyneside)

  Weir, James Galloway

  M'Callum, John M.

  Robson Sir William Snowdon

  White, George (Norfolk)

  M'Crae, George

  Runciman, Walter

  White, J. D. (Dumbartonshire)

  M'Kenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald

  Russell, T. W.

  White, Luke (York, E.R.)

  M'Laren, H. D. (Stafford, W.)

  Rutherford, V. H. (Brentford)

  Whitehead, Rowland

  M'Micking, Major G.

  Samuel, Herbert L.(Cleveland)

  Whitley, John Henry(Halifax)

  Maddison, Frederick

  Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel)

  Whittaker. Sir Thomas Palmer

  Mallet, Charles E.

  Schwann, Sir C.E. (Manchester)

  Wiles, Thomas

  Manfield, Harry (Northants)

  Scott, A.H.(Ashton under-Lyne

  Williams, J. (Glamorgan)

  Marnham, F. J.

  Sears, J. E.

  Wilson, John (Durham, Mid)

  Massie, J.

  Seely, Major J. B.

  Wilson, P. W. (St. Pancras, S.)

  Masterman, C. F. G.

  Shackleton, David James

  Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)

  Menzies, Walter

  Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)

  Winfrey, R.

  Molteno, Percy Alport

  Sherwell, Arthur James

  Mond, A.

  Shipman, Dr. John G.

  TELLERS FOB THE NOES—Mr.

  Morgan, G. Hay (Cornwall)

  Silcock, Thomas Ball

  Whiteley and Mr. J. A. Pease.

  Morse, L. L.

  Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie

  Morton, Alpheus Cleophas

  Soames, Arthur Wellesley

  *THE CHAIRMANsaid he thought the next Amendment was consequential on a previous Amendment, which had not been carried.
  *SIR CHARLES DILKEpointed out that though it might be consequential it afforded the only opportunity of asking the right hon. Gentleman what was the meaning of the new word "enlisted," and how it differed from the old word "enrolled." The word had been passed without discussion in a previous section and the Amendment could not be now pressed, but it was a word to which a good deal of objection was taken. It was a change or might be a change which might have some effect on the Volunteer Force. The Volunteers at present were enrolled, not enlisted, and ho desired to know how far it was intended to exclude,
  540
  or how far it was intended to alter the civil character of the Volunteers. The last paragraph in page 3 of the Bill, which read—
  "The recruiting for the Territorial Force both in peace and in war and defining the limits of recruiting areas,"
  might give power to use the words enlist or enroll, and to continue to enlist as well as enroll. He would like to ask the right Gentleman to consider how far it was possible to make use of this wording in recruiting for the Auxiliary Force. He begged to move.
  Amendment proposed—
  "In page 8, lines 12 and 13, to leave out the words 'enlisted by such persons and,' and to insert the word 'enrolled.' "—(Sir Charles Dilke.)
  Question proposed, "That these words be inserted."
  *MR. HALDANEsaid that the status of the territorial soldier under this Bill would not be exactly the same as the old-fashioned Volunteer. His status would be more akin to that of the Yeomanry, and came rather under the conditions attaching to the Militia than to the Volunteers. The reason why "enrolled" had not been chosen was because it was a term reserved for the somewhat loose state of things appropriate at the time when the Volunteer Force was created, and with the idea that the "enrolled" citizens should come forth on a proper signal being given. That was a condition which was very different from that to which the Volunteer Force now aspired; and therefore the word "enlisted" had been chosen as being more appropriate to the character of the force in these days.
  *SIR CHARLES DILKEsaid he would not press the point. But it came within the right hon. Gentleman's powers to vary the terms in certain cases. Only the other day, the right hon. Gentleman had said he would vary the terms of the Army name so that the regiments and battalions might be known as Volunteers and not by any new names, and therefore he ventured to press the right hon. Gentleman to say whether the word "enrolled" should be retained for the second line of Volunteers, as there was a very great predjudice in many quarters against the words "Army" and "enlistment."
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  MR. ASHLEYsaid the Amendment he now moved was to put right what he believed to be a mistake in the drafting of the Bill. According to the Bill a man could only enlist for general county service. As the Bill was drawn a man in, say, Hampshire could only go and enlist in the Hampshire force. He could not specify a particular regiment in which he desired to enlist. That seemed to him an extraordinary position to take up when in the Regular Army a man could enlist in a particular regiment, and in the Volunteers in a particular company. He only moved this Amendment formally lost the Amendment a lit tic lower down, which the right
  542
  hon. Gentleman had agreed to accept, was not in order. He begged to move.
  Amendment proposed—
  "In page 8, line 17, after the word 'enlisted,' to insert the word "for a particular corps or."—(Mr. Ashley).
  Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted.
  *MR. HALDANEsaid the form of this clause was taken from the old Militia Acts, He quite agreed that it was not quite the proper form, and if the hon. Member would withdraw this Amendment and move a subsequent Amendment of which he had given notice he would accept it.
  MR. WYNDHAMsaid that if the Government accepted the subsequent Amendment that would be for particular corps. Before that was done the Committee ought to know what the right hon. Gentleman meant by corps. He was probably aware that there was very great dissatisfaction in the Army at one time when a corps was interpreted to mean a particular body.
  *MR. HALDANEsaid in Section 190 of the Army Act there were two distinct definitions of the words corps. One was in sub-section 15 (a), and was open to the criticism just made, and the other was in sub-section 15 (b), and related entirely to the Auxiliary Forces. That was the definition they proposed to adopt, and under that definition a corps might consist of one battalion or two or three associated battalions of Auxiliary Forces. He could not make a complete plan.
  MR. WYNDHAMsaid that under that definition it would be in the power of the Crown to say that anything which they thought convenient was a corps. What he thought his hon. friend wanted to ensure was that it should be possible to enlist in a regiment or a battalion. The right hon. Gentleman might not be able to make a complete plan, but he could limit establishments so as to prevent one regiment being swollen and another being starred. He could say that a regiment should contain so many and no more. It was not right that the Government should have power to call anything they liked a corps.
  MR. ASHLEYsaid that though the Committee might be satisfied with the statement of the right hon. Gentleman they had no guarantee that in the new rules mentioned there might not be one changing the whole condition. In the Middlesex County Association area there were twenty-seven battalions. Would they all form one corps? If so, and the Territorial soldier was to be changed about from one body to another, he would be no better off if the Amendment was passed than he was before.
  MR. A. J. BALFOURthought the right hon. Gentleman would clear up the whole matter if he would tell the Committee what was not a corps.
  *Mr. HALDANEsaid that what was contemplated as a corps was a group of battalions. The 1st and 2nd Norfolks, with the Volunteer and Militia battalions, would form a corps in virtue of the definition in the Army Act. A man enlisting for a corps such as that could not be transferred to another corps, from one body defined by Royal warrant to another body so defined. In the Regulars a man could be transferred from battalion to battalion of the regiment to which he belonged. It was necessary when a particular battalion was cut up in war time, for instance. The utmost concession which the Government could make would be that a man might insist on serving in a particular corps, but not in the one particular battalion of the corps which he joined.
  *MR. ARNOLD-FORSTERsaid it might be that he was the only Member of the House who did not understand the right hon. Gentleman's reply; but what he submitted was that a person wanted to know when he had enlisted whether he was liable to be transferred. For instance, the Rifle Brigade and the 60th, each had eight, ten or twelve battalions—some in Ireland, some in England, and some in Scotland. They wore attached battalions, and came exactly within the definition; and what he understood his right hon. friend wanted to know was whether a person, having enlisted in the Territorial Army for a battalion—say in the.North Riding of Yorkshire—was liable, against his own will, to be transferred, either in time of peace
  544
  or in time of war, to another battalion in some other part of Yorkshire, though the limitation was not at present confined to a single county. They wanted to know a little more about what was intended. He could quite understand, and did not for a moment dispute, that there might be strong military reasons for making a transfer of that kind desirable, but if that was the view of the War Office they ought to know it. He thought that transfer might be very useful in time of war, but it would be profoundly unpopular in time of peace. Therefore, they ought to know a little more than what was contained in the definition which the right hon. Gentleman had read. He did not believe that any Volunteer would be one penny the wiser after he had read it twenty times. What the Volunteer wanted to know was whether he enlisted into the regiment which he named, or some other regiment to be created in the future—some corps of which he nothing at all One example would bring this matter home. He heard the other day of two corps, one of which was enlisting more men than the other. The commanding officer of one of them told him that, much to his regret, his corps was losing men because in a neighbouring corps the men were being paid as much as 5s., and even more, in order to got them, with the result that they were getting men to enlist who otherwise would have enlisted in his corps. What that indicated was that there was very great reluctance on the part of different corps to give up their men under any circumstances, whether in peace or war. He would again ask the right hon. Gentleman to tell them what was a corps at the present moment. They ought to know how it was this definition came to be used, and an answer might bring them nearer to a solution than they were at the present time.
  *THE CHAIRMANsaid they were getting into irregularity. An Amendment had been moved by the hon. Member for Blackpool, and ho understood that he was willing to withdraw it because another of his later on was likely to be accepted. If this Amendment were withdrawn he did not see why another Amendment should not be proposed raising the question of what the Government meant by the clause as it stood in reference to enlistment.
  MR. ASHLEYasked leave to withdraw his Amendment.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  MR. WYNDHAMmoved, for the purpose of eliciting a further statement from the Secretary of State for War, an Amendment providing that a man should be enlisted "in any regiment or battalion" in a county for which an association had been established. The right hon. Gentleman had said that the word "corps" might mean two battalions of Regular infantry, a Militia battalion and a Volunteer battalion. It might mean that now, but surely it would not mean that if this Bill passed into law. Many of them desired to see those three stages kept, but this Bill abolished them. If he followed the right hon. Gentleman's intention that was not the state of affairs which he wished to create. In the second place, the right hon. Gentleman said ho meant by the word "corps" several battalions of the Territorial Force presumably in one county. That would not satisfy his hon. friend behind him, and certainly did not satisfy himself. The right hon. Gentleman had spoken of transfer and had pointed out that in time of war they transferred men in the Regular Army from one battalion to another. That might be desirable in time of war, but the question which the Committee had before them was the question of enlisting the men. As the Bill stood, without any Amendment, they could enlist for a county; that was to say, that if a roan went to the recruiting office and wished to enlist it was in the power of the authorities to post him, so to speak, to any battalion in the county. They objected to that. What they held was that the man should be able to enlist in this regiment of Yeomanry or cavalry or that battalion of infantry. He was at a loss to conceive on what grounds the right hon. Gentleman refused the Amendment when ho had it in his power to say that in the case of a popular regiment its establishment should not exceed 1,500, and that an unpopular regiment should not be less than 300. He thought it was legitimate to limit or diminish the establishment of a regiment and that where a regiment was persistently weak to say that the regiment must be disbanded. The right hon. Gentleman had these two weapons, and;
  546
  they ought to be ample to enable him to form the purely voluntary force which he was trying to make.
  *MR. HALDANEsaid that as a layman he had listened to the right hon. Gentleman speaking as a soldier, and he was very much surprised that the right hon. Gentleman had not had in mind that when a man enlisted for the regiment he enlisted for the corps and was posted to the unit. The analogy which they had got here was the exact analogy which obtained everywhere. They never did enlist for the unit. In the Yeomanry, for instance, or any other force, they never did enlist for the unit; they enlisted for the corps and were posted to the unit. The corps in the future would be the same as the corps constituted under the Army Act. They would consist of groups of battalions. For instance, they would be on a county basis, and enlistment would be by corps. The Bill provided that a man could not be transferred from one corps to another without his consent. No doubt recruits would be posted to the units to which they asked to be posted. That was intended to be done, and it was the practice in the Regular Army. The right hon. Gentleman had raised this point to have the matter elucidated, but he could not expect him to accept the Amendment, which would be wholly inconsistent with the structure of the Bill.
  *MR. ARNOLD-FORSTERsaid that a recruit was surely posted to his particular unit now—that was his particular corps. Was that what the right hon. Gentleman meant?
  *MR. HALDANEsaid ho had explained that the man enlisted for the corps.
  *MR. ARNOLD-FORSTERsaid that for many years they had enlisted, and did so now, for the 9th Lancers, the 17th Lancers, and the 8th or 10th Hussars, and he know that men in many cases enlisted for a particular regiment; but the War Office had made an arrangement altering that state of things, and very much against the will of the officers and many of the men of cavalry regiments, those cavalry regiments had been turned into a corps. It was quite a mistake to suppose that enlisting for a regiment was

  547
  unknown in the Army. For many years, for a hundred years at least, it had been the universal rule. That had been the constant and uniform practice in the Army for many years. What they wanted to know was, which practice was to prevail; was a man to enlist for a regiment, or for a number of regiments?
  THE UNDER-SECRETARY of STATE for INDIA (Mr. CHARLES HOBHOUSE, Bristol, E.)said that if a man enlisted into the Territorial Force under the County Association, say, of Norfolk, he would enlist for the part governed by that Association, and he could not be shifted out of that county against his will. He therefore could not be separated from the corps for which he had enlisted—namely, the corps of the Territorial Force belonging to the Norfolk regiment.
  SIR HOWARD VINCENTsaid the Under-Secretary for India was full of good intentions, but he had not conveyed to his mind any clear idea of the intentions of the Government as regards this Territorial Force. They were very anxious about the success of this new force. The right hon. Gentleman had no experience either of the force or of the Auxiliary Forces, except that he had distributed a few prizes, and he really must listen to those who had had experience. Anyone who knew anything of the Auxiliary Forces knew perfectly well that they would not get a single man if they enlisted for general service. If they wanted to get these men the Government ought to listen to practical experience in the matter. The Under-Secretary for India said he had dealt with the case, but that was not so, and he did not appear to understand the elements of the voluntary force. He had told them what would happen in the various regiments, and he had mixed them up. If the Under-Secretary would consult his hon. friend sitting behind him, who had served in one of the Metropolitan regiments, he would find out that he was absolutely wrong in regard to what he had said about those regiments. Did anybody suppose for a moment that the class of men who were likely to form the Territorial Force were going to join it for general service? A man generally joined a Volunteer regiment because
  548
  he happened to be connected with it by tradition. Probably he knew the Colonel and the officers, and that was the particular regiment ho was prepared to give voluntary service to, and he would not be prepared to give service to an unspecified regiment in some distant part. The right hon. Gentleman refused Amendments, and would not listen to the views of those who had had experience; under those circumstances was it likely that the Territorial Force would prove to be the success he desired? The men wished to join some definite regiment, and if they persisted in allowing a man to enlist for general county service he was afraid they would not get a single man to join.
  *MR. HALDANEsaid they did not wish to enlist the new Territorial soldier for general service, as the hon. Gentleman seemed to think. They wished to enlist a man for his corps and to post him to the battalion he chose, but, above all things, what they wished to stick to was accurate language in the Bill. Accurate language demanded that they should say that a man enlisted for a corps and was posted for the unit which was in that corps. Of course, in framing the corps for the purpose of the Territorial Force they would define the units to be associated in such a fashion as would be convenient for the purpose of enlistment and for the purpose of posting; but no idea was more remote from the mind of the Government than that a man should be enlisted for general service and posted anywhere against his will.
  LORD EDMUND TALBOT: Having posted a man, will it be in the power of the authorities to transfer him to another battalion in the same county?
  *MR. HALDANE: They never do in time of peace. In time of war such a power is considered necessary in all well-regulated military organisations.
  MAJOR SEELY:suggested that the difficulty might be met if the right hon. Gentleman would accept an Amendment to add at the end of the clause some such words as these:—"Provided always that every man shall be posted to the unit in which he desires to serve,

  549
  and shall not be transferred there from in time of peace without his consent." It applied to men of all classes. Suppose a man residing in Portsmouth enlisted in the Hampshire Infantry and wished to serve at Portsmouth, if it were possible to transfer him against his will to Bournemouth and to force him to take his drills there and run the risk of losing his employment at Portsmouth, he would probably not join the force.
  *MR. HALDANEsaid his hon. and gallant friend had expressed what he had himself said, and if it would be any comfort to the Committee to have it put in words," he had no objection to doing so. He should prefer to bring up the exact words on the Report stage. He would undertake to bring up an Amendment which would give effect to the sense of his hon. and gallant friend's suggestion.
  MR. A. J. BALFOURsaid he was glad the right hon. Gentleman had taken this course. He thought it was the right course, and he congratulated the right hon. Gentleman on the fact that there would be a Report stage for this Bill.
  MR. WYNDHAMsaid that in view of what the right hon. Gentleman had said he would ask leave to withdraw the Amendment. He understood that what had been suggested by the hon. and gallant Member for the Abercromby Division would be incorporated in the Bill.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  *MR. McCRAEmoved to amend Sub section (b) in order to provide that enlistment should be "for a period not less than four years." He said that under the clause as drafted, after the first three years, the commanding officer would have to ask each man specifically whether he wished to re-engage, and if he reengaged he would have to be re-sworn. That would have a disturbing effect. At the present time a Volunteer served for three years, and could remain for such length of time as he liked, subject to certain notice of his intention to retire. He was quite sure that the provisions in the clause practically making an annual re engagement necessary after the first three years, would en-
  550
  courage men to resign rather than to continue in the service. Human nature was human nature, and they had an example of what this system led to in the three years' enlistment of Mr. Brodrick. At the end of the three years the soldier was to have an opportunity of re-engaging, and the consequence was that hardly a man after the three years did reengage. He felt that if the right hon. Gentleman adhered to the clause as at present drafted he would put a great obstacle in the way of maintaining the numbers in the different battalions. He could not understand why the words which he proposed to omit should have been introduced. It seemed to be entirely a piece of red tape. He hoped the right hon. Gentleman would look into the matter. It was most essential that some modification should be made in the clause He begged to move.
  Amendment proposed—
  "In page 8, lines 21 and 22, to leave out the words, 'such a period as may be prescribed, not exceeding,' and to insert the words, 'a period of not less than.' "—(Mr. McCrae.)
  Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the question."
  *MR. HALDANEsaid his hon. and gallant friend's proposal was inconsistent with the object of the Bill. They were aiming at something much more thorough going than the Volunteer Force as at present constituted. They wished to make the position of the Territorial soldier more akin to that of the Regular soldier, and they had taken as their type the Yeomanry. The responsibility of the Territorial soldier would be greater than that of the Volunteer. Therefore they thought it right that a man should know at the end of his time that he was entitled to his discharge, and that it should be open to him to say whether he would go on or not. Moreover, it was also proposed that a man should be able to go into a Reserve, in which he would get less training, but would still be available for rejoining his battalion in case of war. He did not share his hon. and gallant friend's fears.
  MR. WYNDHAMsaid he would like to adduce one practical reason against

  551
  the Amendment. In the Auxiliary Forces there was sometimes a difficulty as to what should be done with a non-commissioned officer who had committed no fault, although he was not the best man for the post. While he might be damaging the troops, they could not get rid of him without causing a feeling of injustice. But they could without hurting his feelings say that they were not going to accept his re-engagement. On that ground he was against the Amendment.
  SIR HOWARD VINCENTsaid he did not agree with the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Dover. He thought what had fallen from the hon. Member for East Edinburgh had great force in it. The less formality proposed in connection with the Territorial Army the better chance of its success. He could not agree with the statement that there was the slightest difficulty in getting rid of a non commissioned officer who was not fit for his post. They could get rid of him by a friendly word without hurting his feelings. The regulation was perfectly clear as to the age limit. The maximum age limit, which was never departed from in the Volunteers, was fifty-five, and j the rule for officers was fifty-eight.
  AN HON. MEMBER: After thirty-eight years service.
  SIR HOWARD VINCENTsaid that the ordinary Volunteer could not serve beyond fifty-five years of age. Did the hon. Gentleman think that a man could go on serving till the day of judgment? He asked the right hon. Gentleman to accept the advice of the hon. Member behind him not to hamper the Territorial Army with all these restrictions, which seemed to be dictated by a desire to make it an impossible force.
  *MR. MCCRAEsaid he was very sorry that his right hon. friend had not accepted his Amendment, which was intended to perfect the machinery of the Bill. But as both Front Benches were against it, he begged leave to withdraw the Amendment.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  MR. COURTHOPEmoved an Amendment providing that a man who had served his four years' term should be
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  able to re-engage from year to year rather than for a further period of four years. From practical experience he was sure there would be great difficulty about a re-engagement for four years, or for any period of a definite character beyond one year. A man was always pleased when he got to the end of the period of three or four years for which ho had enrolled; and would not re-engage except from year to year. He thought it was particularly important that this question should be considered, because these old soldiers—he did not mean old men, but soldiers of experience—ought to be kept if possible, as they stiffened and strengthened the company, and nothing should be done to discourage them from re-engagement from year to year. Moreover, the system of re-engagement from year to year facilitated the getting rid of non-commissioned officers who were doing no good. It would be very easy to draw up a form of oath which would obviate re-attestation on re-engagement for one year. He begged to move.
  Amendment proposed—
  "In page 8, line 24, to leave out from the beginning to the word 'and' in line 2", and insert the words 'may, on the conclusion of his engagement, be reengaged from year to year.' "—(Mr. Courthope.)
  Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the clause."
  *MR. HALDANEsaid that the hon. Member had not noticed that the words of the clause permitted what he desired to be done. These words were that every man enlisted under this part of the Act "shall be enlisted to serve for such a period as may be prescribed, not exceeding four years, reckoned from the date of his attestation." There was nothing to prevent a man re-engaging from year to year, or for two years. He wished, however, to leave the period of re-engagement open. If a man would re-engage for a period of four years, he was far more valuable as a reserve in making their mobilisation arrangements. The Amendment of the hon. Gentleman would deprive the Government of that latitude, and for that reason they wished to keep the clause as it stood.
  COLONEL, E. WILLIAMSthought the words of the Amendment would be more useful than the words of the clause as it stood.
  VISCOUNT HELMSLEYsaid after their first period of service they would not get men to reengage for more than a year, and it would be most disastrous if the men were compelled to re-engage for four years. In the Yeomanry they had had experience of re-engagements from year to year, and they had no difficulty in getting the men to do so, if they had not to sign a paper, and take the oath again. He pressed the right hon. Gentleman to accept the Amendment, which he thought would be a safeguard.
  MR. WYNDHAMhoped that the right hon. Gentleman would not maintain the attitude he had taken in regard to the Amendment. He thought it was for Parliament to decide what was the best period for re-engagement. With all due respect to the Army Council, he did not think the Council wore in a position to know what was best for each member of the Territorial Force. If there was a rule laid down that four years should be the period of re-engagement, the country would lose the services of a great many men whom it was desirable to retain, while a great many would be retained in the force for four years of whom it was better to get rid. The safe plan ought to be adopted of re-engagement for one year, leaving the matter to the commanding officer.
  MR. COURTHOPEsaid he wished to call the attention of the right hon. Gentleman to the fact that this point in the Bill was the one of which the rank and file in the Volunteers were afraid. There were a great many men in the Volunteers who hoped to go on serving their country for a long time, and this was the one thing which they had picked out of the Bill of which they went in fear. He therefore did not think that they would be satisfied with the right hon. Gentleman's announcement that power was taken to make regulations.
  *MR. HALDANEsaid that power was taken to make regulations prescribing an alternative period, and they would be
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  made before the men were asked to serve under them.
  COLONEL R. WILLIAMS:did not think that the declaration of the right hon. Gentleman would satisfy the Volunteers. They did not want to come under the Act until they knew what its conditions were. They were willing to serve for four years, but they wanted at the end of that period to go on from year to year, and they did not want one Army Council to say that they should go on for four years, another to say they should go on for three, another two, and another one year. This was a very important matter, and before the Bill was passed they ought to know what the arrangements were to be.
  *MR. HALDANEsaid the regulations would be published. Alterations in them might be required after a time due to altered social conditions or other circumstances, and he thought it would be an act of unwisdom to tie the hands of the War Office so as to prevent them from making a change.
  MR. LUTTRELLurged the right hon. Gentleman to reconsider his decision, as he thought the Amendment would be desirable.
  MR. WYNDHAMassured the right hon. Gentleman that all that had been said about the feeling of the Volunteers was equally true of the Yeomanry in this matter. Was the position taken up by the right hon. Gentleman a consistent one in regard to the penalties to be inflicted on a man leaving before his four years had expired? Had the right hon. Gentleman not been disposed to be too lenient, and would it not be better that a man should come in for four years and look that far ahead and then go on from year to year? There were a number of reasons which might prevent a man after four years from binding himself in advance for a longer period than a year, and he could not see what was the use of the right hon. Gentleman's insisting upon four years when those who had knowledge and were interested in the Auxiliary Forces would tell him that he would get more men under a year to year system than by binding them for four years.
  *COLONEL HERBERTsuggested that the right hon. Gentleman should on Report bring up I the clause in such a form that it would allow of re-enlistment for four years or alternatively from year to year. That was what hon. Gentlemen wished, and he thought there would be a great advantage in having that elasticity. If a man had served four years he was undoubtedly worth keeping, and therefore they should make the regulations so elastic that they would induce him to stay on.
  MR. ACLANDsaid the provision in the Yeomanry Act was in the exact words of the clause as proposed by his right hon. friend and re-enlistments under that Act were j from year to year. He had in his hand the Yeomanry form of declaration for re-enlistment, and it was simply a declaration in regard to service from year to year for three years, and that was done in exactly the same words as were proposed in this Bill; so that there need not be any fear that the Yeomanry, at all events, would have their conditions of service altered in any way.
  MR. ASHLEYsaid the speech of the hon. Gentleman afforded the strongest reason for importing into the Bill some such words as were suggested. Similar words had acted very excellently in the case of the Yeomanry, and they were therefore desirous of having the conditions of re-enlistment of that force extended to the Territorial Army. The hon. Member had said that the Yeomanry need not be afraid that their conditions of service would be altered; but surely, under the Bill as it at present stood, the regulations might be changed. As they found something which seemed to meet the case of the Yeomanry, and was satisfactory to the Army Council and the Government, why should they not embody it in the Bill?
  *MR. HALDANEsaid he would further consider the matter before the Report stage. As at present advised, he thought the Yeomanry form the best, but if he could express the substance of the desire expressed by the Committee he would do so. He did not want to tie his hands, however, and it was understood that a
  556
  man had the option of choosing his period of service.
  MR. COURTHOPEsuggested that ho should withdraw the Amendment and move the one suggested by the hon. Member for Monmouth to insert the words "or alternatively from year to year." If the right hon. Gentleman could see his way to accept that he would immediately save the time of the Committee by withdrawing his Amendment.
  *MR. HALDANE:was not sure that he could accept that, and thought it was better to leave the matter over. He would consider the matter between this and the Report stage. It was not possible to give an undertaking, but if he could arrive at the substance of what the Committee wished he would do it. He did not, however, want to tie his hands in regard to words which might turn out to be wrong.
  MR. WYNDHAMasked whether they were to understand that a man under the control of the Army Council was to have the option of re-engaging.
  *MR. HALDANEsaid the man would have the option, but for what periods he did not know. He did not quite see how he could work it, but it was understood that a man was to have the option; but ho wanted the latitude to have these different periods. The matter was not so easy as it looked, but he would take time to consider it.
  MR. COURTHOPEasked whether one of the alternative periods of service would be from year to year.
  Mr. HALDANEwas understood to assent.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  SIR HOWARD VINCENTmoved to omit from sub-section (c) the words "provided that a soldier on re-engagement should make the prescribed declaration before a Justice of the Peace or an officer. "He thought this was an Amendment which the Secretary of State might easily accept. There was no advantage in repeated declarations on oath before a Justice of the Peace. The man had been

  557
  sworn in, and that was quite sufficient to carry him to the end of his service, and there was no use in lugging him off' to the police court or the county court to make him take the oath again.
  Amendment proposed—
  "In page 8, line 27, to leave out from the word ' term' to the end of subsection."—(Sir Howard Vincent.)
  Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the clause."
  MR. ACLANDpointed out that a man in the Territorial Force would not enlist for an indefinite but for a definite period, and therefore the declaration he made on taking the oath and attesting for the first time could not be indefinitely extended to cover the whole period for which he might serve, although it might cover the period for which he enlisted. That was the whole point, and to provide for a reattestation was not lugging a man before a police or county court, because he could at any time go through the proceeding before an officer of his own unit. That could be done at any time during his last term of service, when the men were in camp and the junior subaltern came round to their tents. It was not a difficult or complicated formality, and nothing was more simple. It was desirable in order that a man should be made to think, and not drift on from year to year as many men wore allowed to do. The man was engaged for a definite period, and his service should not be allowed to extend beyond that period without a formality of this nature, which was of the simplest kind.
  MR. ASHLEYsaid that the Yeomanry were at present re-engaged without all these formalities, and if it was possible in the case of the Yeomanry why should it not be possible in the case of the Territorial Army,
  SIR HOWARD VINCENTsaid it had been stated that there was no fresh declaration from year to year.
  *MR. HALDANEsaid he had a copy of the declaration. The arrangement was that when the Imperial Yeoman reengaged he re-engaged for the period of—
  558
  whatever it might be—and then came the declaration—
  "I do declare that I will faithfully serve. His Majesty, his heirs, and successors for a further period of one year from the end of ray current term of engagement in the Imperial Yeomanry in any part of the United Kingdom for the defence of the same provided my services should so long be required."
  SIR HOWARD VINCENTsaid it was not worth pressing, but he might say that anything in the way of unnecessary formalities would prevent, in many cases, men re-engaging, and that if they chose to insist on these formalities they must take the responsibility of so doing.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  SIR HOWARD VINCENTmoved to omit the sub-section providing for the payment of a sum not exceeding £5 on discharge by the Territorial soldier. He objected to the man who voluntarily undertook the defence of his country being fined. If a £5 fine had boon inflicted on a man who did not enlist, that would have been a sensible provision. Judge Bryn Roberts, for many years a well-known Member of the House, once stated that for every man killed in battle he would have one civilian executed—that that, in his opinion, would be the best way of preserving peace. Ho certainly thought that the man who did not enlist should be fined. He begged to move.
  Amendment proposed—
  "In page 8, to omit lines 40 and 41."—(Sir Howard Vincent.)
  Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the clause."
  *MR. HALDANEsaid he was surprised that the hon. and gallant Gentleman should have made this Motion, for nobody knew better that the subsection introduced nothing which was not an existing practice in Volunteer corps. The hon. and gallant Gentleman knew that when a man joined a corps it took security from him that if he left he should give back some part of the expense incurred in his training. Every man who joined was bound by the rules of the corps, and a scale was usually drawn up under which, if

  559
  a man who had only boon a year in the corps loft it, he had to pay more than the man who had served longer, because the loss was greater. The payment was by way of compensation to the public for the money spent on the man's training. No scale had been put in here, because it required a good deal of thinking out, but it was proposed to make a scale by regulation, under which a little only would be taken from the man who had served a long time, and more from the man who had served only a short time—in other words, to carry out a system which was familiar to Volunteer corps to-day. Power would, however, be taken to remit or reduce the payment in special circumstances. Whore, for instance, a man had to leave the force for family or other good reasons, or where he had to remove from one part of the country to another, it would be very hard on him to be called on to pay.
  LORD WILLOUGHBY DE ERESBYsaid this was a most important point when read in conjunction with the rest of the clause, it being subsequently provided that a man who was disobedient or misconducted himself was to be discharged. Hence the sub-section placed a premium on disobedience, because if a man was hard up—and there were many who would join the Territorial Force to whom £5, or even £2, would be a consideration—he would have an easy way of getting out of paying by not doing what he was told. If the Territorial Force was to be a useful force it was essential that there should be some discipline; and while he agreed with a man being fined for leaving before his term had finished, he also thought the right hon. Gentleman must make it clear that when a man was discharged for disobedience, the corps should have some claim to getting the fine out of him.
  SIR HOWARD VINCENTsaid the payment now made under the civil contract between the commanding officer and the man was not for the expense of training, but to recoup the cost of the uniform supplied to him. The man was bound to serve a certain time or pay a certain sum of money, but the contract was a very elastic one, and it was made with the commanding officer, a man the Volunteer knew and had confidence in.
  560
  To leave the matter to the Army Council or Territorial Association was quite a different thing. If it were left to the right hon. Gentleman.himself, he would have no objection, but they all knew he was here to-day and gone to-morrow and they could not expect to have a successor so genial and able.
  COLONEL R. WILLIAMShoped the Amendment would not be pressed; he was quite certain, from what he knew of Volunteers, that they must have some sort of pecuniary fines.
  Question put, and negatived.
  Amendment proposed—
  "In page 8, line 40, to leave out the words' His Majesty,' and insert the words, 'the association for the county for which he was enlisted.' "—(Mr. Haldane.)
  Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Clause."
  SIR HOWARD VINCENTpointed out that it was under the commanding officer of the corps that the Volunteer was enrolled. The county association had no individual knowledge of him, and probably it would only meet once in six months. If the man paid the £5, thy unit to which ho belonged ought to have the money.
  MR. HALDANEsaid under the Bill the county association would manage all the business, and they should have the cash with which to do it.
  LORD BALCARRESthought the money ought to go to the particular unit to which the man belonged. The right hon. Gentleman ought not to merge all these battalions into the entity of the County Association. The County Association in the West Riding might have twenty or thirty battalions; the County Association of London would have twenty-seven. He thought the money from these fines ought to be credited to the individual unit from which the men resigned.
  VISCOUNT VALENTIAsaid that in the case of the Yeomanry and Militia the fines invariably went to the regimental coffers, and he was quite sure that it would be to the advantage of the various

  561
  regiments that the same system should obtain in the Territorial Army. If a man broke his engagement the fine which he paid ought to go to the advantage of the unit to which he belonged rather than to the association.
  MR. ACLANDsaid the Bill proposed to reform the system of administration, and in the Territorial Army, instead of the commanding officers being responsible for the administration, it would be the County Association. The loss would not be to the particular corps when a man left, but to the association, and, therefore, the money to make good that loss should go to the association. The association which had to provide the money for grants had a right to receive the money paid in fines.
  Question put, and negatived.
  Proposed words there inserted.
  *MR. ASHLEYmoved to leave out the words 'five pounds,' and insert the words ' in any particular case the sum there for specified in the schedule to the Act.' It had been decided, ho said, that a fine should be levied, and they had to consider what the amount of the fine should be. He had placed an Amendment to the schedule on the Paper to substitute for the fine of £5 a sliding scale. If a man left within one year after his attestation, he should be liable to a fine of £4; if within two years, £3; if after two years and within throe, £2 if after three years or any time after he had re-engaged (they knew that there was to be re-engagement, from year to year), £1. He thought that was common sense, as surely a man who had seen three years service to the State ought to be able to leave under easier circumstances than the man who left after three, six, or nine months service. The man who left so soon had put the State to considerable expense and trouble. The man who had served five or six or ten years ought to be able to go out on very easy terms. Therefore, on the ground of justice ho asked the Committee to consider his proposal, which made a difference between the man who had served a short time and the man who had served for a considerable length of time. With a sliding scale of fines, men would be induced probably to stay on longer
  562
  with the corps in order to reduce the amount of the fine to be paid; it would in reality act as a sort of bonus to continue with the Territorial Army. If the schedule which ho suggested were put in the Bill, it would act as a guide | to the local associations as to what scale of fines they should exact. After all, it was purely permissive; they had the power to remit fines altogether or partially. By his plan, they would get uniformity all over the country. The County Associations would turn to the Act, see what Parliament considered to be approximately the right amount, and then take action upon it. If they simply put £5 in the Bill, they might have one County Association fining practically up to the limit, and over the border another County Association imposing practically no fine at all. That was not at all a sound system, and it might create bad feeling between the men of one County Association and the men of another. He thought that was very much to be deprecated. With regard to the sliding scale which he suggested, he had consulted a number of Volunteer officers in reference to it, and it was framed on the advice they had given from their practical experience. What he urged was that the man who had served four, five, six, or ten years should not be liable to be fined to the same extent as a man who had only served six months.
  Amendment proposed—
  ''In page 8, line 41, to leave out the words, 'five pounds,' and to insert the words, 'in any particular case the sum there for specified in the Schedule to the Act' "— (Mr. Ashley.)
  Question proposed, "That the words 'five pounds' stand part of the clause."
  *MR. HALDANEsaid this was a matter which had to be dealt with by regulations. There were different arms and different corps, which stood on a different footing. For instance, some of the corps required higher training. In the Clyde Corps of Engineers the fine of £5 always remained £5, whether the time was long or short, because the training was such a very important matter. They took the view that the longer a man was trained, the greater was his value to the State. Or, they might take the instance of the cost of training cavalry, which was greater than that of training infantry.

  563
  They had to distinguish between these j cases and it was essentially a matter to be | dealt with by regulation and not by a rigid schedule such as the hon. Member would put into the Bill. In the circumstances, he preferred that the matter should be dealt with by regulation rather than by putting anything into the Bill.
  SIR HOWARD VINCENTthought there was good sense in what the Secretary for War had said, that the matter should be dealt with by regulation and not by the Bill. If a schedule were put into the Bill' it could not be altered except by legislation. He pointed out that the money was paid not in respect of training but with regard to clothing. That was a comparatively small matter. He noticed that the Secretary for War spoke of the fine as a recompense for the cost of training; but that was not so; it was a reimbursement for the cost of providing a man with a uniform, and the fine should in amount recognise that the value of the uniform became less year by year. It was essential that there should be a sliding scale.
  CAPTAIN CRAIGsaid the remarks made by the Secretary for War upon this point seemed to be at variance with the attitude he took up yesterday. Was the scale to be prescribed by the association, or by regulations issued by the War Office, or by the House of Commons each year? How could anyone who wished to join the Territorial Force ascertain under what scale ho was enlisting? He would also like to know if that scale could be altered at a moment's notice. The Amendment laid down exactly what a man would have to pay if he desired to resign. He knew of nothing more injurious than a system which compelled men to remain in a force when they would prefer to pay something in order to be released from their undertaking. Many hon. Members who had spoken had pointed out the difficulty which would be experienced under this scheme of retaining in the Territorial Force men of the Militia class. Those were just the kind of men who would find it difficult to pay a heavy fine. If the Territorial Force was to be recruited from the old Militia class of men—who must necessarily from the backbone of any such schome— it was absolutely necessary to make
  564
  the conditions to suit that class. Those men were drawn mostly from the working classes and they were not prepared to pay such a large fee as would be exacted by the Secretary of State for War. He intended to support the Amendment.
  COLONEL HERBERThoped that in the framing of regulations the principle of a sliding scale in proportion to length of service would be accepted. He had on the Paper a similar Amendment to that which had been moved by the hon. Member for Blackpool, and ho was in entire agreement with him upon the point. He hoped the Secretary of State for War or the Financial Secretary to the War Office would be prepared to announce that they accepted the proposal. There certainly ought to be a sliding scale under which every man would know what he would be called upon to pay if he wanted to leave the corps.
  LORD BALCARRESsupported the proposal for a scale in lieu of a lump sum, and reminded the Committee that a man would be under further penalty if he did not deliver up his equipment in good condition. The schedule would not deprive the association of discretion, but it would give the local authority an indication of the intention of Parliament. He did not think that the Secretary for War should be altogether a dictator by these regulations. Parliament should not divest itself of responsibility in this important matter. The question had aroused considerable interest amongst Volunteers. He differed entirely from his hon. friend who said that the fine was intended to recoup the loss in training. He did not look at it from that point of view at all. He thought the fine was intended as a deterrent both on thoughtless enlistment and on capricious leaving of a corps. While he thought some fine was right and necessary, ho strongly disapproved of its being put down at £5 subject to remission. A man who might commit the military offence of leaving a corps without proper or adequate notice would not be comforted by the knowledge that the county association, or the officer appointed by the association, would be entitled to reduce the sum to a nominal figure—say, a halfpenny. If £5 were put in the Bill, that

  565
  would be taken as the indication given by the Government of what the line was to be. The amount was too large. He could give scores of cases in which men in mining counties had been obliged to leave their regiments on account of having to go to other districts for work. If a man who had to migrate in order to follow his trade was to be subject to a fine of £5, it seemed to him that it would put a certain check on the man's anxiety to enlist in a corps. He did not believe the knowledge that there were restrictions and exemptions would bring particular comfort to that man. He believed that nine out of ten Volunteers, if asked what was the condition on which they might leave a corps, would say that it was a fine of £b. He was strongly in favour of a sliding scale, but he was not wedded to the figures in' the scale which had boon submitted.
  COLONEL R. WILLIAMSbelieved the fine of £5 would frighten young men, especially in the agricultural districts, from joining the Volunteers. It would be no use telling a man that the tine would be very much less. It would be very difficult to get it out of his head that the fine was £5. He suggested that an Amendment might be introduced providing that the fine should be such sum as was prescribed in a sliding scale under which the maximum should not exceed £4. Ho would like to have the sliding scale in the Bill.
  MR. MADDISONthought they were all agreed in accepting the principle of a sliding scale. What they should consider was how it was to be carried out. There were some hon. Members who thought it should go in to the Bill, and others who wished it to go in to the rules. It appeared to him that if it were put in the Bill, they could not provide for the differences between the various corps which had been referred to by the right hon. Gentleman. If it were put in the schedule, they could make allowance for those differences.
  MR. ASHLEYsaid the local associations would consider that. They could reduce the fine to a shilling.
  MR. MADDISONsaid he could not help feeling that there would be more
  566
  freedom if the various corps were allowed to make their own regulations.
  MR. SHACKLETONsaid it seemed to him that the Government were proposing something which would be a deterrent to young men joining the Volunteers. They were often told that the only alternative to this Bill was conscription. If the effect of this proposal would be to deter people from coming in, he thought it would be a mistake to agree to it. If the proposed force was to be a purely Volunteer Army, surely there should be nothing put in which would change the present system so far as the fine was concerned. Whatever regulations now existed with regard to Volunteers joining or leaving should be retained without change. If they emoted that the fine for leaving was to be £5, it would deter young men of sixteen, seventeen, and eighteen from joining. He urged that they should not put a condition in the Bill which would prevent men from coining in, and thereby enable the Government to say, if the scheme failed, that they must adopt conscription.
  *MR. COURTHOPE:supported the proposal for a sliding scale. When the Bill was introduced he differed from many of his friends on that side of the House who were very much alarmed at the proposal of a £5 fine. But since that time this £5 fine had been a great deal talked about, and the rank and file of the Volunteers had become very much alarmed about the matter. He would like to point out a practical consideration. It was well known by the men that a court of summary jurisdiction always considered a defendant's circumstances before imposing a fine; and fines imposed on Volunteers for failing to become efficient were never more than a few shillings. Thy fine of £5 would not act as a deterrent to men leaving, but it would most certainly act as a deterrent to men joining. He spoke from experience, having been a Volunteer adjutant. He had had some experience in endeavouring to impose fines under the present system. An agricultural labourer might be receiving a wage of only 12s. or 14s. a week, with perhaps an invalid mother to support, and there were very few cases

  567
  in which any appreciable fine would be imposed by the local bench on such a man for breaking his service. He hoped the Secretary for War would see his way to accept a sliding scale.
  THE FINANCIAL SECRETARY TO THE WAR OFFICE (MR. BUCHANAN, Perthshire, E.)said that at present the commanding officers had the power of imposing fines, and it was well known that they put a sliding scale of fines in force.
  *MR. COURTHOPEsaid that it was not the commanding officer but the local bench who would impose the fines.
  MR. BUCHANANsaid that that was a matter on which everybody could form his own opinion. It was not intended always to enforce the maximum amount scheduled. Though there was in reality no point of principle involved, it was

  AYES.

  Abraham, William (Rhondda)

  Cheetham, John Frederick

  Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Lewis

  Acland, Francis Dyke

  Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R.

  Hardy, George A. (Suffolk)

  Agnew, George William

  Clough, William

  Harmsworth,Cecil B. (Wore'r)

  Allen.A. Acland (Christchurch)

  Collins, Stephen (Lambeth)

  Hart-Davies. T.

  Armitage, R.

  Corbett,C.H.(Sussex,E.Grinst'd

  Harvey. A. G. C. (Rochdale)

  Armstrong, W.C. Heaton

  Cornwall, Sir Elwin A.

  Harvey,W. E.(Derbyshire,N.E.

  Astbury, John Meir

  Cotton, Sir H. J. S.

  Haworth, Arthur A.

  Baker. SirJohn (Portsmouth)

  Cowan, W. H.

  Hazel, Dr. A. E.

  Baker,Joseph A. (Finsbury.E.)

  Crooks, William

  Helme, Norval Watson

  Barker, John

  Crosfield, A. H.

  Hemmerde, Edward George

  Barlow, JohnEmmott (Somerset

  Davies, Ellis William (Eifion)

  Henry, Charles S.

  Barlow, Percy (Bedford)

  Davies, Timothy (Fulham)

  Herbert,Colonel Ivor(Mon.,S.)

  Barry,Redmond J.(Tyrone.N.)

  Davies, W. Howell (Bristol, S.)

  Higham, John Sharp

  Beck, A. Cecil

  Dewar, Arthur (Edinburgh, S.)

  Hobart. Sir Robert

  Bell, Richard

  Dickinson,W.H.(St. Pancras,N

  Hobhouse. Charles E. H.

  Bellairs, Carlyon

  Dunne,Major E.Martin (Walsall

  Holt, Richard Durning

  Benn,Sir J.Williams( Devonp'rt

  Edwards, Clement (Denbigh)

  Horniman. Emslie John

  Bimn.W (TowerHamlets.S.Geo.

  Edwards, Frank (Radnor)

  Horridge, Thomas Gardner

  Bennett. E. N.

  Elibank, Master of

  Howard, Hon. Geoffrey

  Berridge, T. H. D.

  Erskine, David C.

  Hyde, Clarendon

  Bethell,SirJ.H.(Essex,Romf'rd

  Essex, R. W.

  Jacoby, Sir James Alfred

  Bethell, T. R. (Essex, Maldon)

  Esslemont, George Birnie

  Johnson, John (Gateshead)

  Billson, Alfred

  Evans, Samuel T.

  Johnson, W (Nuneaton)

  Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine

  Everett, R, Lacey

  Jones, Leif (Appleby)

  Brace, William

  Faber, G. H. (Boston)

  Jones,William (Carnarvonshire

  Bramsdon, T. A.

  Fenwick, Charles

  Kekewich, Sir George

  Branch, James

  Ferens, T. R.

  Kincaid-Smith, Captain

  Brigg, John

  Findlay, Alexander

  King, Alfred John (Knutsford)

  Brocklehurst, W. B.

  Foster, Rt. Hon. Sir Walter

  Laidlaw. Robert

  Bryce, J. Annan

  Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

  Lamb, Edmund G. (Leominster

  Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn

  Fuller, John Michael F.

  Lamb, Ernest H. (Rochester)

  Buckmaster, Stanley O.

  Gardner,Col. Alan (Hereford,S.)

  Lambert, George

  Burns, Rt. Hon. John

  Gill, A. H.

  Lamont, Norman

  Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas

  Goddard, Daniel Ford

  Layland-Barratt, Francis

  Buxton,Rt.Hn.Sydney Charles

  Gooch, George Peabody

  Lehmann, R. C.

  Cairns, Thomas

  Griffith, Ellis J.

  Levy, Maurice

  Carr-Gomm, H. W.

  Gulland, John W.

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Causton,Rt.Hn.Rie.hardKnight

  Haldane. Rt. Hon. Richard B.

  Lough, Thomas

  Cawley, Sir Frederick

  Hall, Frederick

  Luttrell, Hugh Fownes

  needful to possess some kind of power to impose a maximum fine, giving at the same time an absolute discretion and power of relaxation.
  MR. ASHLEYsaid he would rather have the maximum fine inserted in the Bill than leave it indefinitely to the County Associations. An hon. Member had spoken in reference to the difference of treatment between the Yeomanry and the other branches of the Auxiliary services. So far as length of service was concerned all branches should be placed on an equality; but so far as conditions of service was concerned that should lie left to the County Associations who would take them into account in imposing the full fine or relaxing it.
  Question put.
  The Committee divided:—Ayes, 202; Noes, 85. (Division List, No. 204)

  Macdonald,J.M.(FalkirkB'ghs

  Priestley, Arthur (Grantham)

  Torrance, Sir A. M.

  Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.

  Radford, G. H.

  Toulmin, George

  M'Crae, George

  Rea, Russell (Gloucester)

  Trevelyan, Charles Philips

  M'Kenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald

  Richards,Thomas (W.Monm'th

  Ure. Alexander

  M'Laren,Sir C. B. (Leicester)

  Robertson.Rt.Hn.E. (Dundee)

  Verney, F. W.

  M'Laren, H. D. (Stafford, W.)

  Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside)

  Walters, John Tudor

  M'Micking, Major G.

  Rogers, F. E. Newman

  Walton,Sir JohnL. (Leeds,S.)

  Maddison, Frederick

  Rutherford, V. H. (Brentford)

  Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

  Manfield, Harry (Northants)

  Samuel,Herbert L.(Cleveland)

  Waring, Walter

  Markham, Arthur Basil

  Scott,A.H.(Ashton under Lyne

  Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan)

  Marks,G. Croydon(Launceston)

  Seaverns, J. II.

  Wason,JohnCathcart (Orkney)

  Marnham, F. J.

  Seely, Major J. B.

  Waterlow, D. S.

  Menzies, Walter

  Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)

  Weir, James Galloway

  Mond, A.

  Shaw, Rt, Hon. T.(Hawick B.)

  White, George (Norfolk)

  Money, L. G. Chiozza

  Sherwell, Arthur James

  White, J. D. (Dumbartonshire)

  Montgomery, H. G.

  Shipman, Dr. John G.

  White, Luke (York, E.R.)

  Morgan, G. Hay (Cornwall)

  Silcock, Thomas Ball

  Whitehead, Rowland

  Morse, L. L.

  Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie

  Whitley, John Henry (Halifax)

  Morton, Alpheus Cleophas

  Spicer, S:r Albert

  Whittaker, Sir Thomas Palmer

  Myer, Horatio

  Stanger. H. Y.

  Wiles, Thomas

  Napier, T. B.

  Stanley, Hn. A.Lyulph (Chesh.

  Williams. J. (Glamorgan)

  Nicholson,Charles N.(Doncast'r

  Stewart, Halley (Greenock)

  Wilson,Hn. C.H.W. (Hull. W.)

  Norton, Capt. Cecil William

  Strachey, Sir Edward

  Wilson,P. W. (St. Pancras, S.)

  Nuttall, Harry

  Straus, B. S. (Mile End)

  Winfrey, R.

  O'Donnell, C. J. (Walworth

  Strauss, E. A. (Abingdon)

  Yoxall, James Henry

  Pearce, Robert (Staffs., Leek)

  Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)

  Pearce, William (Limehouse)

  Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.

  TELLERS FOR THE. AYES— Mr.

  Philipps,J.Wynford (Pembroke

  Thompson, J.W. H.(Somerset,E

  Whiteley and Mr. J. A.

  Pickersgill, Edward Hare

  Tillett, Louis John

  Pease.

  Pirie, Duncan V.

  Tomkinson, James

  NOES.

  Acland-Hood.RtHn.Sir Alex.F.

  Fletcher, J. S.

  Salter, Arthur Clavell

  Allen, Charles P. (Stroud)

  Forster, Henry William

  Seddon, J.

  Alison, Sir William Reynell

  Gardner, Ernest (Berks, East)

  Shackleton, David James

  Arkwright,John Stanhope

  Clover, Thomas

  Shelfield,SirBerkeley(Jeorge D

  Arnold-Forster,Rt. Hn.Hugh O.

  Henderson,Arthur (Durham)

  Sloan, Thomas Henry

  Ashley, W. W.

  Henderson,J.M.(Aberdeen, W.)

  Steadman, W. C.

  Aubroy-Flether.Rt.Hon.Sir H.

  Hills, J. W.

  Stone, Sir Benjamin

  Balcarres, Lord

  Hope, John Deans (Fife,West)

  Summerbell, T.

  Banbury, Sir Frederick George

  Houston, Robert Paterson

  Sutherland, J. E.

  Barnes, G. N.

  Hudson, Walter

  Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

  Barrie, H. T. (Londonderry.N.)

  Hunt, Rowland

  Taylor, John W. (Durham)

  Bignold, Sir Arthur

  Kennaway,Rt.Hon.SirJohn H.

  Thomson, W.Mitchell-(Lanark)

  Bowles, G. Stewart

  King,SirHenrySeymour (Hull).

  Thorne, William

  Boyle, Sir Edward

  Law, Andrew Bonar (Dulwich)

  Valentia, Viscount.

  Bull, Sir William James

  Lea,Hugh Cecil (St.Pancras.E.)

  Vincent,Col.Sir C. E. Howard

  Butcher, Samuel Henry

  Lonsdale, John Brownlee

  Walrond, Hon. Lionel

  Byles, William Pollard

  Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester)

  Walsh, Stephen

  Carlile, E. Hildred

  M'Callum, John M.

  Ward,John (Stoke upon Trent)

  Castlereagh, Viscount

  Morpeth, Viscount

  Wardle, George J.

  Cave, George

  O'Grady, J.

  Watt. Henry A.

  Cleland, J. VV.

  O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens

  Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.)

  Clynes, J. R.

  Parker, James (Halifax)

  Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

  Cochrane,Hon. Thos.H.A.E.

  Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

  Wilson, John (Durham, Mid)

  Craig,CharlesCurtis( Antrim, S.

  Price, C. E. (Edinb'gh, Central)

  Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)

  Craik, Sir Henry

  Remnant, James Farquharson

  Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

  Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

  Richards,T.F.(Wolverh'mpt'n

  Duncan.C.(Barrow-in-Furness)

  Roberts, G. H. (Norwich)

  TELLERS FOE THE NOES—

  Duncan,Robert((Lanark,Govan

  Roberts.S.(Sheffield,Eeclesall)

  Captain Craig and Mr. Court. hope.

  Fardell, SirT. George

  Rutherford, John (Lancashire)

  Foil, Arthur

  Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool)

  MR. ASHLEYmoved an Amendment to provide that whore, for good and sufficient cause, the delivery of the arms and appointments was impossible, a man desiring his discharge should be allowed to pay the value of the things. As the
  570
  Bill stood the Territorial soldier had to fulfil three conditions in order to get out of the Territorial Army. He had to give three months notice in writing to his commanding officer, to pay hope.£5 or such sum as might be thought lit, and to

  571
  deliver up in good order, wear and tear only excepted, all arras, clothing, and appointments being public property issued to him. That ho might not be able to do.
  THE DEPUTY CHAIRMANsaid he understood the Government accepted the Amendment. Was it necessary to argue further?
  MR. ASHLEYsaid he only intended to do so shortly.
  MR. BUCHANANsaid the Government accepted the Amendment.
  Amendment proposed—
  "In page 9, line 3, at end, to add the words ' or, in cases where for any good and sufficient cause the delivery of the property aforesaid is impossible, on paying the value thereof.'"— (Mr. Ashley.)
  Question, "That those words be their inserted," put, and agreed to.
  VISCOUNT CASTLEREAGHmoved to leave out of the proviso to Subsection 3 the words "for the association for the county or for any officer authorised by the association," in order to insert the words "for his commanding officer." He said that the power to dispense with the conditions as to notice and payment properly belonged to the commanding officer, and ought not to be usurped by the association. If this subsection of the Bill was left as it stood, the authority delegated by the War Office to the commanding officer and his sense of responsibility would most assuredly be weakened.
  Amendment proposed—
  "In page 9, lines 4 and 5, to leave out the words, 'the association for the county or for any officer authorised by the association,' and insert the words 'his commanding officer."—(Viscount Castlereagh.)
  Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be loft out stand part of the clause."
  SIR H. VINCENThoped the Government would be able to accept the Amendment. There could be no doubt whatever that it was the commanding officer and not the association which would have the knowledge of individuals, and the more the administration of a regiment was left to the commanding officer the better it would be for the regiment.
  MR. ACLANDthought the noble Lord and the hon. and gallant Gentleman opposite had read this subsection as though the words "or for any officer authorised by the association" were not in it. The great importance of the commanding officer and of his retaining all reasonable powers were so universally recognised that one could not conceive of an association, except in very special circumstances, doing otherwise than delegating this power to him if the commanding officer was willing to exercise it. He was not sure it was proper to leave the power of the association so that it should in every case be delegated to commanding officers, because the latter might be put in an invidious position. The money for the fines went to the association, and the commanding officer had ceased to have any interest in them, and he might be tempted, as the matter did not concern his battalion, to let men off. He would rather have this dispensing power vested in someone else. He could conceive that if it were the universal rule that the commanding officer should be the dispensing officer, the commanding officer of one battalion might get the reputation of always letting off men, while another commanding officer might take a much stricter view of his duties, and there would thus be differences between battalion and battalion in the same association, which would-be very undesirable. It was better to leave the matter to the association, with full power to delegate it to the commanding officer or any-other officer.
  *MR. ARNOLD-FORSTERadmitted that the situation was very undesirable when on such an important Amendments this the hon. Gentleman opposite was put up to give the Committee the opinion of the Government. It was most undesirable that he should answer for the Government when the Financial Secretary to the War Office and the Under-Secretary of State for India were both present. He thought his hon. friend should have some reply from responsible member upon the merits of the Amendment.
  MR. BUCHANANwas understood to say the Government were unable to accept the Amendment. The Association would act in the main through the commanding officer. The commanding officers would be largely represented on the association, and no sensible association would act in strong opposition to the views of the commanding officers. But in accordance with the principles of the Bill and of the clauses already passed this was a duty of which the responsibility must remain with the association.
  *MR. COURTHOPEsaid that both the Financial Secretary and the hon. Member for the Richmond Division had given strong arguments in favour of accepting the Amendment. Both of them had said it was ridiculous to imagine that any association would do otherwise than place this power upon the shoulders of sensible commanding officers. He was assuming that the Army Council wore going to be sensible enough to remove a commanding officer who was not himself' sensible. That being the case the whole objection of the Government dropped to the ground. There should be nothing but sensible commanding officers. They were told that the County Associations would place these powers on the commanding officers; but if that were so why was there any objection to putting it in the Bill? The Govern, meat had said that they agreed with all those Amendments; they accepted them in principle, but they did not mean to
  574
  have them in the Bill. It was most extraordinary if the Government intended to place the powers upon the shoulders of the commanding officers that they would not have it put down in black and white. If that was really their intention they should accept the Amendment.
  MR. McCRAEregretted that the Government could not accept the Amendment. He thought this clause was the reddest of red tape and must have been drafted by a most military-minded man. Was the County Association to undertake the duty of clothing each battalion? If so, it must have a very large depot, for the storage of uniforms, etc. Was the Territorial soldier to "deliver up his uniform in good order" to the County Association or the commanding officer? If the uniforms were to be delivered up to the commanding officer, then he ought to have the responsibility. In the district of Edinburgh they had three infantry battalions clothed in different uniforms. Were these uniforms to be stored at the County Association's depot, or were they to be placed under the control of the commanding officer? The clause had been defended only on the plea that it would never be put in force. It was preposterous to put the County Association in the position in which it would be placed by the clause. He hoped that in the interests of discipline the Government would reconsider the point.
  SIR GILBERT PARKERsuggested that the view of both the Government and the mover of the Amendment might be maintained if they would agree to an Amendment to the Amendment providing that it should b3 lawful for the commanding officer, authorised by the County Association, to remit the fine. Then the commanding officer would be responsible. to the County Association. In that case, they would have responsibility established in the County Association and the commanding officer acting for the County Association. The Commanding Officer would then be responsible to the

  575
  County Association, and report to them his reasons for remitting the fine upon discharging a man. He thought probably the Government would be prepared to accept the Amendment in view of the fact that the arguments of the hon. and gallant Member for Central Sheffield and of the hon. Member for East Edinburgh were unanswerable, and also of the fact that those Gentlemen were, on the whole, friendly to the Bill, and were ready to accept its provisions and make it workable.
  MR. CHARLES ALLENexpressed the opinion that it was a great pity that the Government could not accept the suggestion. It had been pointed out that if the Bill remained as it was, the commanding officer would have no interest in the matter, and that would be so because the responsibility would be with the County Association. The commanding officer would find himself in a very unpleasant position if he were inclined to let a man off the fine and the County Association would not allow him to do so. This was a question, not of administration, but of discipline, and he regretted that the Government had not accepted the Amendment.
  CAPTAIN CRAIGsaid the Bill provided that a man was to give three months notice in writing to his commanding officer if he wished his discharge, but the Bill also provided that the association could override the commanding officer's decision and judge whether the reasons for the discharge were sufficient to allow of its being granted. If the idea suggested by the hon. Member for Richmond were carried out, it would simply mean that an official appointed by the association would act as a sort of bailiff to get out of the man the money
  576
  which should go to the colonel of the regiment, who had the interests of the whole of the men at heart. The hon. and gallant Gentleman had struck a wrong note entirely when he said that this matter should not be left to the colonel commanding the regiment. A regiment of first class Yeomanry or a battalion of Infantry should have their interests entrusted to the colonel commanding, and they ought not to be entrusted entirely to the County Association. The association would put in an independent man, just as a county council or a board of guardians would put in a man to collect a rate, and the commanding officer would be passed over in regard to the matter. If such a principle were adopted, and if colonels were to be treated in that way, the Bill would fall entirely to the ground and would never work. The clause said that the reasons for the discharge were to be sufficient and urgent. Who was to be the judge of the sufficiency and urgency? Surely the man who would be the best judge of these matters was the man who commanded the regiment, who was intimate with the men of the corps, who knew them, and was best able to judge when a man was entitled to his discharge. Who knew the men best—the association or the commanding officer, who had his men on parade, whose adjutant was in the closest touch with them all the year round, and who had the knowledge necessary to enable him to come to a determination as to whether the man should have his discharge? The association had not that knowledge of the regiment which was possessed by the commanding officer; but they would delegate a man, John Jones or whoever it might be, to collect the money which should go to the colonel of the regiment; and they would thus be starting the Territorial Force with

  577
  the feeling that its commanding officers were not trusted by the association, the right hon. Gentleman, or the officials of the War Office. The Financial Secretary had said that the object was to keep the men as much as possible within the purview of the County Association. By all means let them keep matters within the County Association, but when they delegated a man to perform certain duties, then let them trust that man right up to the hilt. If the County Associations were to dwarf the powers of the commanding officers, the scheme of the right hon. Gentle man would be starting very badly. It would be cruelty to clip the wings of commanding officers in the way proposed. It was possible that one County Association might appoint a representative who exacted all the fine, while across the border another County Association might appoint an officer who was easy and did not impose fines; and the men would say, "Oh, here is a man who is soft-hearted and does not fine us, we will go there." Therefore what the hon. and gallant Gentleman had pointed out as touching the colonel would certainly touch the person appointed by the County Association. The value of the clause would certainly not be enhanced, and he had much pleasure in supporting the Amendment.
  MR. WYNDHAMsaid he had much pleasure in supporting the eloquent appeal made by his hon. and gallant friend, who had some knowledge of these matters. Under Sub-section 3 of the clause, notice was to be given to the commanding officer. Unless the Amendment were accepted they would give an appeal from the commanding officer to the County Association. It would be difficult to devise anything more subver-
  578
  sive of discipline. He was sure that that point need not be insisted upon. The right hon. Gentleman had again and again assured them that the Territorial Force was to be commanded by military officers, and only administered by the County Associations. If the Amendment were passed, the soldier, if dissatisfied with the decision given, would have the ordinary channel of appeal, namely, he could bring the matter before the brigadier —up the ladder of military authority, to the brigadier if the Territorial Force was to be commanded by soldiers and not by civilians on the County Associations. Any appeal for the commanding officer ought to go. If they allowed an appeal from the commanding officer to the County Association they were transferring questions of discipline from the military authority to a civil body.
  *MR. HALDANEsaid the point raised by the right hon. Gentleman was in substance whether this was a question relating to command or to administration. The Government wanted to separate command from administrative functions, and to give the administrative duties to the association. That was the real point in contest. If they turned to Clause 2, they would find that the County Associations had to administer the territorial units; and if they turned to Clause 8 they had to administer, among other things, the questions of clothes, arms, and equipment. These were clearly administrative items which concerned the association rather than the commanding officer. The Committee had decided that a man who broke his engagement had to pay £5 to cover the cost which the association had been put to in providing for his training and equipment. How could it be said

  579
  that that was a question of command and not of administration? The three items to which he had referred were clearly administrative and concerned the association rather than the commanding officer. He thought the Committee forget that the principle of the Bill was to separate command from administration. Then as to the composition of the association, it must be remembered that on the association there would be commanding officers, and they would have the assistance of the brigadier-in-chief. The Government had left power to the association to delegate it to any other officer to say on what grounds a man might be let off. That was the only way of dealing with the matter consistently with practical common sense and sound business principles. If they took the other course they chose a commanding officer who was not concerned with this matter of administration and put him in an invidious position. The association would want the decision of some officer. That officer might be the commanding officer, but it was better to leave it to the association to say who the officer should be.
  MR. COURTHOPEasked why, if everything else in this sub-clause was to be dealt with by the County Association as a purely administrative matter, was three months notice to be given? He contended that the commanding officer was the natural person to settle the pros and cons as to whether an individual soldier should be let off. The power ought to be entrusted to the commanding officer right through the section. Surely it ought to be the commanding officer's duty to consider whether or not a man was entitled to some remission of the heavy penalties and liabilities or whether the utmost rigour of the law ought to be enforced.
  MR. WYNDHAMsaid the right hon. Gentleman had stated that the County Association was to have these direct appeals and go into their economic effects. That was purely farcical. They must put the responsibility on the commanding officer. If the commanding officer granted discharges unduly so as to involve the association in undue expense it would be time to point out to him that he had not a proper care for public economy. They could not dissipate the responsibility between the commanding officer on the one hand and the county association on the other.
  VISCOUNT CASTLEREAGHappealed to the Secretary for War to accept the Amendment and expressed his regret that the right hon. Gentleman had attempted to support the very flimsy arguments which had been addressed to the Committee by his subordinates. He Could not agree with the hon. Member for Gravesend in the suggestion he had made to take away a small part of the authority of the commanding officer. He would like to see that authority retained and if anything made stronger. As regarded his own regiment the commanding officer should be an autocrat, and everything connected with his regiment should go through the channel of the commanding officer. The question was whether the commanding officer should be looked upon as the responsible individual or not. Commanding officers on both sides of the House had given their view upon the point in the absence of the right hon. Gentleman, and obviously there must be some substance in the Amendment.
  *MR. CARLILEsupported the Amendment. He thought there was a real necessity for retaining the control and services of the commanding officers. There should be no question of delegating

  581
  to County Associations or officers appointed by them the powers which naturally lay with the commanding officer. No commanding officer worth his salt would tolerate the meddling of the County Association. In the County Associations there would be a number of commanding officers. The commanding officer of one battalion would not tolerate dictation by the commanding officers of other battalions, however good they might be. The right hon. Gentleman would be well advised to allow this power to be administered by the commanding officers. He would not regret doing so, for it would save him a great deal of trouble, as Minister of War, in finding commanding officers. It was not every man in a battalion who was suited to occupy a position of that kind. It was often very difficult to find them, and no doubt the result was that unsuitable men were sometimes appointed, very much to the detriment of the corps. Commanding officers had to meet a certain amount of expense in connection with their battalions, and, therefore, there was the double difficulty of finding men who had, not only the necessary qualifications, but the necessary moans to occupy the position. If this proposal were left as it now stood in the Bill, there would be one ready-made source of difficulty to the Minister for War. He hoped the right hon. Gentleman would realise that there were about him in this House commanding officers of experience, and that he would accept guidance from them on such practical details as this. He hoped there would be no delegation to the County Association, or to officers nominated by that association, of powers which naturally lay with the commanding officer with regard to the conditions on which the members of his battalion should be allowed to retire.
  MR. BRODIEsaid that if the Secretary of State for War had been able to be present during the last three-quarters of an hour he would have found that there was a general feeling in all parts of the Committee in favour of some alteration in the wording of the clause. He did not think that the Amendment of the noble Lord quite met the case. He thought the right hon. Gentleman might very well accept the suggestion of the hon. Member for Gravesend. He hoped the right hon. Gentleman would reconsider his decision.
  SIR HOWARD VINCENTsaid he had waited for some time in the hope that the Secretary of State would rise and answer the appeal which had been made to him by hon. Members on his own side. He did not think the right hon. Gentleman could have been informed of the very strong opinion expressed on this subject by experienced Members on his own side as to the great necessity of meeting the Committee on this point. It was really not fair to the Committee or to the force he desired to create for the right hon. Gentleman to try to conduct the Bill with the obstinacy he had shown. There were Members in all parts of the House anxious to help him, and yet he would not accept a simple Amendment like that under discussion. It was certainly a matter in which the right hon. Gentleman could meet the general wishes of the Committee. If he was going to adopt non possumus attitude he had better drop the Bill altogether, for even if the Bill passed through this House, it would never pass the House of Lords.
  COLONEL KENYON-SLANEYthought the right hon. Gentleman did not appreciate the necessity of discipline.

  583
  He did not believe in a Territorial Force or County Associations, but he knew it was impossible that such a scheme could have any success at all unless it was administered in strict accordance with discipline; and discipline could only be

  AYES.

  Abraham, William (Rhondda)

  Dalziel, James Henry

  Horniman, Emslie John

  Acland, Francis Dyke

  Davies, Ellis William (Eifion)

  Horridge, Thomas Gardner

  Agnew, George William

  Davies, Timothy (Fulham)

  Howard, Hon. Geoffrey

  Ainsworth, John Stirling

  Davies, W. Howell (Bristol, S.)

  Hudson, Walter

  Allen, A. Acland (Christchurch)

  Dewar, Arthur (Edinburgh, S.)

  Hutton, Alfred Eddison

  Armitage, R.

  Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh.

  Hyde, Clarendon

  Armstrong, W. C. Heaton

  Dickinson,W.H.(St.Pancras,N.

  Isaacs, Rufus Daniel

  Ashton, Thomas Gair

  Duncan,C.(Barrow-in-Furness

  Jacoby, Sir James Alfred

  Asquith,Rt.Hn. Herbert Henry

  Dunne,Major E.Martin(Walsall

  Johnson, John (Gateshead)

  Astbury, John Meir

  Edwards, Clement (Denbigh)

  Johnson, W. (Nuncaton)

  Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth)

  Edwards, Enoch (Hanley)

  Jones,Sir D.Brynmor (Swansea

  Barker, John

  Edwards, Frank (Radnor)

  Jones, Leif (Appleby)

  Barlow, JohnEmmott( Somerset

  Elibank, Master of

  Jones,William (Carnarvonshire

  Barlow, Percy (Bedford)

  Erskine, David C.

  Jowett, F. W.

  Barnes, G. N.

  Essex, R. W.

  Kearley, Hudson E.

  Barran, Rowland Hirst

  Esslemont, George Birnie

  Kekewich, Sir george

  Barry,Redmond J. (Tyrone,N.)

  Evans, Samuel T.

  Kincaid-Smith, Captain

  Beck, A. Cecil

  Eve, Harry Trelawney

  Laidlaw, Robert

  Bell, Richard

  Everett, R. Lacey

  Lamb,Edmund G.(Leominster)

  Bellairs, Carlyon

  Fenwick, Charles

  Lamb, Ernest H. (Rochester)

  Benn.Sir J.Williams(Devonp'rt

  Ferens, T. R.

  Lambert, George

  Benn,W.(T'w'r Hamlets,S.Geo.

  Ferguson, R. C. Munro

  Lamont, Norman

  Bennett, E. N.

  Findlay, Alexander

  Layland-Barratt, Francis

  Berridge, T. H. D.

  Foster, Rt, Hon. Sir Walter

  Lea,Hugh Cecil (St.Pancras.E.)

  Bertram, Julius

  Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

  Lehmann, R. C.

  Bethell,SirJ.H.(Essex,Romf'rd

  Fuller, John Michael F.

  Lever, W. H. (Cheshire, Wirral)

  Bethell, T. R. (Essex, Maldon)

  Fullerton, Hugh

  Levy, Maurice

  Billson, Alfred

  Furness, Sir Christopher

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine

  Gardner,Col. Alan (Hereford,S.)

  Lough, Thomas

  Bowerman, C. H.

  Gill, A. H.

  Lupton, Arnold

  Brace, William

  Glover, Thomas

  Luttrell, Hugh Fownes

  Bramsdon, T. A.

  Goddard, Daniel Ford

  Lyell, Charles Henry

  Branch, James

  Gooch, George Peabody

  Lynch, H. B.

  Brigg, John

  Greenwood, G. (Peterborough)

  Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester)

  Brocklehurst, H. B.

  Griffith, Ellis J.

  Macdonald,J.M.(Falkirk B'ghs

  Brooke, Stopford

  Gulland, John W.

  Maclean, Donald

  Brunner,J.F.L. (Lanes., Leigh)

  Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

  Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.

  Bryce, J. Annan

  Haldane, Rt. Hon. Richard B.

  M'Kenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald

  Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn

  Hall, Frederick

  M'Laren, Sir C. B. (Leicester)

  Buckmaster, Stanley 0.

  Harcourt, Rt. Hon.Lewis

  M'Laren, H. D. (Stafford, W.)

  Bums, Rt. Hon. John

  Hardy, George A. (Suffolk)

  M'Micking, Major G.

  Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas

  Harmsworth, Cecil B. (Worc'r)

  Maddison, Frederick

  Buxton.Rt.Hn. Sydney Charles

  Harmsworth.R. L. (Caithn'ss-sh

  Mallet, Charles E.

  Byles, William Pollard

  Hart-Davies, T.

  Manfield, Harry (Northants)

  Carr-Gomm, H. W.

  Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale)

  Markham. Arthur Basil

  Cans ton, Rt.Hn.RichardKnight

  Harvey.W.E. (Derbyshire,N. E.

  Marks, G. Croydon (Launceston)

  Cawley, Sir Frederick

  Harlam, Lewis (Monmouth)

  Marnham, F. J.

  Channing, Sir Francis Allston

  Haworth, Arthur A.

  Mason, A. E. W. (Coventry)

  Cherry, Rt, Hon. R. R.

  Hazel, Dr. A. E.

  Massie, J.

  Cleland, J. W.

  Helme, Norval Watson

  Menzies, Walter

  Clough, William

  Hemmerde, Edward George

  Molteno, Percy Alport

  Clynes, J. R.

  Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

  Mond, A.

  Collins, Stephen (Lambeth)

  Henderson,J.M.(Aberdeen, W.)

  Montgomery. H. G.

  Collins.Sir Wm. J.(S.Pancras,W

  Henry, Charles S.

  Morgan, G. Hay (Cornwall)

  Corbett.C.H. (Sussex.E.Gr'st'd

  Herbert, Colonel Ivor (Mon.,S.)

  Morrell, Philip

  Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.

  Herbert, T. Arnold (Wycombe)

  Morse, L. L.

  Cotton, Sir H. J. S.

  Higham, John Sharp

  Morton, Alpheus Cleophas

  Cowan, W. H.

  Hobart, Sir Robert

  Myer, Horatio

  Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth)

  Hobhouse, Charles E. H.

  Napier, T. B.

  Crooks, William

  Holland, Sir William Henry

  Newnes, F. (Notts, Bassetlaw)

  Crossley, William J.

  Holt, Richard Durning

  Nicholson,CharlesN.(Doncast'r

  maintained by the man selected to command.
  Question put.
  The Committee divided:— Ayes, 279; Noes, 95. (Division List No. 205.)

  Norton, Capt. Cecil William

  Rutherford, V. H. (Brentford)

  Trevelyan, Charles Philips

  Nussey, Thomas; Willans

  Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)

  Ure, Alexander

  Nuttall, Harry

  Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel)

  Walsh, Stephen

  O'Donnell, C. J. (Walworth)

  Schwann,Sir C.E. (Manchester)

  Walters, John Tudor

  O'Grady, J.

  Scott,A.H.(Ashton underLyne)

  Walton, Sir John L. (Leeds, S.)

  Parker, James (Halifax)

  Seaverns, J. H.

  Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

  Partington, Oswald

  Seddon, J.

  Ward.John (Stoke upon Trent

  Pearce, Robert (Staffs. Leek)

  Seely, Major, J. B.

  Wardle, George J.

  Pearce, William (Limehouse)

  Shackleton, David James

  Waring, Walter

  Pearson.Sir W.D. (Colchester)

  Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)

  Wason, Eugene(Clackmannan

  Philipps, J. Wynford (Pembroke

  Shaw, Rt. Hon. T. (Hawick B.)

  Wason,John Cat heart (Orkney

  Philipps, Owen C. (Pembroke)

  Sherwell, Arthur James

  Waterlow, D. S.

  Pickersgill, Edward Hare

  Shipman, T)r. John G.

  Weir, James Galloway

  Pollard, Dr.

  Silcock, Thomas Ball

  White, George (Norfolk)

  Price, C. E.(Edinburgh,Central)

  Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie

  White, J. D. (Dumbartonshire

  Price.Robert John (Norfolk,E.)

  Spicer, Sir Albert

  White, Luke (York, E. R.)

  Priestley, Arthur (Grantham)

  Stanger, H. Y.

  Whitehead, Rowland

  Priestley,W. E. B. (Bradford.E.)

  Steadman, W. C.

  Whitley, John Henry (Halifax)

  Radford, G. II.

  Stewart, Halley (Greenock)

  Whittaker, Sir Thomas Palmer

  Rainy, A. Rolland

  Strachey, Sir Edward

  Wiles, Thomas

  Raphael, Herbert H.

  Straus, B. S. (Mile End)

  Williams, J. (Glamorgan)

  Rea, Russell (Gloucester)

  Strauss, E. A. (Abingdon)

  Wills, Arthur Walters

  Renton, Major Leslie

  Summerbell, T.

  Wilson, John (Durham, Mid)

  Richards,Thomas (W.Monm'th

  Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth)

  Wilson, P. W. (St. Pancras, S.)

  Richards,T.F.(Wolverhampton

  Taylor, John W. (Durham)

  Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton

  Roberts, G. H. (Norwich)

  Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)

  Winfrey, R.

  Robertson.Rt.Hn.E. (Dundee)

  Tennant, H. J. (Berwickshire)

  Wood, T. M'Kinnon

  Robertson,SirG.Scott(Bradf'rd

  Thomas,Sir A.(Glamorgan, E.)

  Yoxall, James Henry

  Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside)

  Thomasson, Franklin

  Robinson, S.

  Thompson, J. W.H.(Somerset,E

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr.

  Robson, Sir William Snowdon

  Thorne, William

  Whiteley and Mr. J. A. Pease.

  Roe, Sir Thomas

  Tomkinson, James

  Pease.

  Rogers, F. E. Newman

  Torrance, Sir A. M.

  Rose, Charles Day

  Toulmin, George

  NOES.

  Acland-Hood,Rt. Hn.SirAlex.F.

  Duncan, Robert.( Lanark, Govan)

  Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

  Allen, Charles P. (Stroud)

  Faber, George Denison (York)

  Ratcliff, Major R. F.

  Anson, Sir William Reynell

  Faber,Capt. W. V. (Hants, W.)

  Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel

  Arkwright, John Stanhope

  Fardell, Sir T George

  Remnant, James Farquharson

  Ashley, W. W.

  Fell. Arthur

  Roberts,S.(Sheffield, Ecclesall)

  Aubrey-Fletcher,Rt. Hon.Sir H.

  Fletcher, J. S.

  Rothschild, Hon Lionel Walter

  Balcarres, Lord

  Forster, Henry William

  Rutherford, John (Lancashire)

  Balfour,Rt.Hn.A.J.(CityLond.)

  Gardner, Ernest (Berks, East)

  Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool)

  Banbury, Sir Frederick George

  Gibbs, G. A. (Bristol, West)

  Salter, Arthur Clavell

  Banner, John S. Harmood-

  Harrison-Broadley, H. B.

  Sandys, Lieut.-Col. Thos.Myles

  Barrie, H. T. (Londonderry, N.)

  Harwood, George

  Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

  Beckett, Hon. Gervase

  Hedges, A. Paget

  Sheffield.Sir BerkeleyGeorge D.

  Bignold, Sir Arthur

  Helmsley, Viscount

  Sloan, Thomas Henry

  Bowles, G. Stewart

  Hills, J. W.

  Stanley,Hn.A. (Lyulph(Chesh.)

  Boyle, Sir Edward

  Hope, John Deans (Fife, West)

  Starkey, John R.

  Bridgeman, W. Clive

  Houston, Robert Paterson

  Stone, Sir Benjamin

  Brodie, H.C.

  Hunt, Rowland

  Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

  Bull, Sir William James

  Kennaway,Rt. Hn. Sir John H.

  Talbot,Rt.Hn. J.G.(Oxf'dUniv.

  Burdett-Coutts, W.

  Kenyon-Slaney.Rt.Hn. Col. W.

  Thomson, W.Mitchell-(Lanark)

  Butcher, Samuel Henry

  King,Sir Henry Seymour (Hull)

  Thornton, Percy M.

  Carlile, E. Hildred

  Law,Andrew Bonar (Dulwich)

  Valentia, Viscount

  Cave, George

  Lee, ArthurH.(Hants., Fareham

  Vincent, Col. Sir C. E. Howard

  Cavendish, Rt. H.n. Victor C.W.

  Lockwood,Rt.Hn. Lt.-Col.A.R.

  Walker,Col. W.H. (Lancashire)

  Chamberlain,Rt.Hn.J.A.(Wore.

  Lond.Col.Charles W.(Evesham)

  Walrond, Hon. Lionel

  Cheetham, John Frederick

  Lonsdale, John Brownlee

  Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid)

  Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow)

  Lyttelton, Rt, Hon. Alfred

  Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.)

  Courthope, G Loyd

  Marks, H. H. (Kent)

  Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

  Craig, Charles Curtis(Antrim,S.)

  Meysey-Thompson, E. C.

  Wilson,Hon. C.H.W. (Hull,W.)

  Craik, Sir Henry

  Morpeth, Viscount

  Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

  Dalrymple, Viscount

  Muntz, Sir Philip A.

  Davies,David(MontgomeryCo.)

  Nicholson, Wrn.G.(Petersfield)

  TELLERS FOR THE NOSE—

  Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

  O'Niell, Hon. Robert Torrens |

  Viscount Castlereagh and Captain Craig.

  Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

  Pirie, Duncan V.

  And, it being after half-past ton of the clock, the CHAIRMAN proceeded, pursuant to the Order of the House of the 6th May, successively to put forthwith the Ques
  The Committee divided:—Ayes, 281;

  AYES.

  Abraham, William (Rhondda.)

  Craig. Herbert J. (Tynemouth)

  Higham. John Sharp

  Acland, Francis Dyke

  Crooks, William

  Hobart, Sir Robert

  Agnew, George William

  Crosfield, A. H.

  Hobhouse. Charles E. H.

  Ainsworth, John Stirling; f;

  Crossley, William J.

  Holland, Sir William Henry

  Alden, Percy

  Dalziel, James Henry

  Holt, Richard Durning

  Allen, A. Acland (Christchurch)

  Davies, David (MontgomeryCo.

  Horniman. Emslie John

  Allen, Charles P. (Stroud)

  Davies, Ellis William (Eifion)

  Horridge, Thomas Gardner

  Armitage, R.

  Davies, Timothy (Fulham)

  Howard, Hon. Geoffrey

  Armstrong, W. C. Heaton

  Davies, W. Howell (Bristol, S.)

  Hutton. Alfred Eddison

  Ashton, Thomas Gair

  Dewar, Arthur (Edinburgh, S.)

  Hyde, Clarendon

  Asquith,Rt.Hn.Herbert Henry

  Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh.

  Isaacs, Rufus Daniel

  Astbury. John Meir

  Dickinson, W.H.(St.Pancras,N.)

  Jacoby, Sir James Alfred

  Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth)

  Dunne,Major E.Martin(Walsall

  Johnson, John (Gateshead)

  Baker, Joseph A. (Finsbury.E.)

  Edwards, Clement (Denbigh)

  Johnson, W. (Nuneaton)

  Barker, John

  Edwards, Enoch (Hanley)

  Jones.Sir D.Brynmor(Swansea)

  Barlow, JohnEmmott(Somerset

  Edwards, Frank (Radnor)

  Jones, Leif (Appleby)

  Barlow, Percy (Bedford)

  Elibank, Master of

  Jones, William(Carnarvonshire)

  Barran, Rowland Hirst

  Erskine, David C'.

  Kearley, Hudson, E.

  Barry, Redmond J.(Tyrone,N.)

  Essex, R. W.

  Kekewich, Sir (Jeorge

  Beck, A. Cecil

  Esslemont, George Birnie

  Kincaid-Smith, Captain

  Bell, Richard

  Evans, Samuel T.

  Laidlaw, Robert

  Bellairs, Carlyon

  Eve, Harry Trelawney

  Lamb,Edmund G. (Leominster)

  Benn,Sir J.Williams (Devonp'rt

  Everett, R. Lacey

  Lamb, Ernest H. (Rochester)

  Benn,W.(T'w'r Hamlets,S.Geo.

  Fenwick, Charles

  Lambert, George

  Bennett, E. N.

  Ferens, T. R.

  Lamont, Norman

  Berridge, T. H. D.

  Ferguson, R. C. Munro

  Layland-Barratt. Francis

  Bertram, Julius

  Findlay, Alexander

  Lehmann, R. C.

  Bethell,SirJ.H.(Essex,Romf'rd

  Foster, Rt, Hon. Sir Walter

  Lever, W. H. (Cheshire, Wirral)

  Bethell, T. R. (Essex, Maldon)

  Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

  Levy. Maurice

  Billson, Alfred

  Fuller, John Michael F.

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine

  Fullerton, Hugh

  Lough, Thomas

  Brace, William

  Furness, Sir Christopher

  Lupton, Arnold

  Bramsdon, T. A.

  Gardner, Col.Alan(Hereford,S.)

  Luttrell, Hugh Fownes

  Branch, James

  Gladstone,Rt.Hn.Herbert John

  Lyell, Charles Henry

  Brigg, John

  Goddard. Daniel Ford

  Lynch, H. B.

  Brocklehurst, W. B.

  Gooch, George Peabody

  MacdonaldJ. M.(Falkirk B'ghs

  Brodie, H. C.

  Greenwood. G. (Peterborough)

  Mackarness, Frederic C.

  Brooke, Stopford

  Griffith, Ellis J.

  Maclean, Donald

  Brunner, J. F. L.(Lanes.,Leigh)

  Gulland, John W.

  Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.

  Bryce, J. Annan

  Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

  M'Crae, George

  Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn

  Haldane, Rt, Hon. Richard B.

  M'Kenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald

  Buckmaster, Stanley O.

  Hall, Frederick

  M'Laren, Sir ('. B. (Leicester)

  Burns, Rt. Hon. John

  Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Lewis

  M'Laren, H. D. (Stafford, W.)

  Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas

  Hardy, George A. (Suffolk)

  M'Micking, Major G.

  Buxton. Rt.Hn.Sydney Charles

  Harmsworth, Cecil B. (Worc'r)

  Maddison, Frederick

  Carr-Gomm, H. W.

  Harmsworth.R.L. (Caithn'ss-sh

  Mallet, Charles E.

  Causton,Rt. Hn.RichardKnight

  Hart-Davies, T.

  Manfield, Harry (Northants)

  Cawley, Sir Frederick

  Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale)

  Markham, Arthur Basil

  Channing, Sir Francis Allston

  Harvey, W.E.(Derbyshire,N.E.

  Marks,G.Croydon (Launceston)

  Cheetham, John Frederick

  Harwood, George

  Marnham, F. J.

  Cherry. Rt. Hon. R. R.

  Haslam. Lewis (Monmouth)

  Mason, A. E. W. (Coventry)

  Cleland, J. W.

  Haworth, Arthur A.

  Massie, J.

  Clough, William

  Hazel, Dr. A. E.

  Menzies, Walter

  Collins, Stephen (Lambeth)

  Hedges, A. Paget

  Molteno, Percy Alport

  Collins,SirWm.J.(S.Pancras,W. I

  Helme, Norval Watson

  Mond, A.

  Corbett.C. H.(Sussex,E.Grinst'd |

  Hemmerde, Edward George

  Money, L. G. Chiozza

  Cornwall. Sir Edwin A.

  Henderson,J.M.(Aberdeen, W.)

  Montgomery, H, G.

  Cory, Clifford John

  Henry, Charles S.

  Morgan, G. Hay (Cornwall)

  Cotton. Sir H. J. S.

  Herbert, Colonel Ivor (Mon.,S.)

  Morrell, Philip

  Cowan, W. H.

  Herbert, T. Arnold (Wycombe)

  Morse, L. L.

  tions necessary to dispose of the Business to be concluded—:
  Question put, "That the clause, as amen led, stand part of the Bill."
  Noes,124.(Division List No.206.)

  Morton, Alpheus Cleophas

  Roe, Sir Thomas

  Toulmin, George

  Myer, Horatio

  Rogers, F. E. Newman

  Trevelyan, Charles Philips

  Napier, T. B.

  Rose, Charles Day

  Uure, Alexander

  Newnes, F. (Notts., Bassetlaw)

  Rutherford, V. H. (Brentford)

  Verney, F. WT.

  Newnes, Sir George (Swansea)

  Samuel,Herbert L.(Cleveland)

  Walters, John Tudor

  Nicholson,CharlesN.(Doncaster

  Samuel, P. M. (Whitechapel)

  Walton, sir John L. (Leeds, S.)

  Norton, Capt. Cecil William

  Schwann, C. Duncan (Hyde)

  Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

  Nussey, Thomas Willans

  Schwann,Sir C.E.(Manchester)

  Ward,John (Stoke upon Trent)

  Nuttall, Harry

  Scott,A.H.(Ashton under Lyne

  Ward.W. Dudley (Southampton

  O'Donnell, C. J. (Walworth)

  Seaverns, J. H.

  Waring, Walter

  Partington, Oswald

  Seely, Major J. B.

  Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan)

  Pearce, Robert (Staffs. Leek)

  Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)

  Wason,John Cathcart(Orkney)

  Pearce, William (Limehouse)

  Shaw, Rt. Hon. T. (Hawick, B.

  Waterlow, D. S.

  Pearson, Sir W. D. (Colchester)

  Sherwell, Arthur James

  Watt, Henry A.

  Philipps,J. Wynford( Pembroke)

  Shipman, Dr. John G.

  Weir, James Galloway

  Philipps, Owen C. (Pembroke)

  Silcock. Thomas Ball

  White, George (Norfolk)

  Pickersgill, Edward Hare

  Simon, John Allsebrook

  White, J. I). (Dumbartonshire)

  Pirie, Duncan V.

  Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie

  White, Luke (York, E.R.)

  Pollard, Dr.

  Spicer, Sir Albert

  Whitehead, Rowland

  Price.C. E. (Edinburgh.Central)

  Stanger, H. Y.

  Whitley, John Henry (Halifax)

  Price.Robert John(Norfolk, E.)

  Stanley. Hn. A. Lyulph (Chesh.)

  Whittaker, Sir Thomas Palmer

  Priestley, Arthur (Grantham)

  Steadman, W. C.

  Wiles, Thomas

  Priestley,W.E.B.(Bradford, E.)

  Stewart, Halley (Greenock)

  Williams,Llewelyn Carmarthen

  Radford, G. H.

  Strachey, Sir Edward

  Williamson, A.

  Rainy, A. Rolland

  Straus, B. S. (Mile End)

  Wills, Arthur Walters

  Raphael, Herbert H.

  Strauss, E. A. (Abingdon)

  Wilson,Hon.C.H.W.(Hull, W.)

  Rea, Russell (Gloucester)

  Taylor,Austin (East Toxteth)

  Wilson, John (Durham, Mid)

  Rees, J. D.

  Taylor, Theodore C.(Radcliffe)

  Wilson, P. W. (St. Pancras, S.)

  Renton, Major Leslie

  Tennant,SirEdward(Salisbury)

  Winfrey, R.

  Richards,Thomas (W.Monm'th

  Tennant, H. J. (Berwickshire)

  Wood, T. M'Kinnon

  Robertson,Rt.Hn. E. (Dundee)

  Thomas,Sir A.(Glamorgan,E.)

  Yoxall, James Henry

  Robertson,SirG.Scott(Bradf'rd

  Thomasson, Franklin

  Robertson, J.M. (Tyneside)

  Thompson,J.W.H.(SomersetE.)

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—

  Robinson, S.

  Tomkinson, James

  Mr. Whiteley and Mr. J. A.

  Robson, Sir William Snowdon

  Torrance, Sir A. M.

  Pease.

  NOES.

  Anson, Sir William Reynell

  Craik, Sir Henry

  Lonsdale, John Brownlee

  Anstruther-Gray, Major

  Dalrymple, Viscount

  Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred

  Arkwright, John Stanhope

  Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

  Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester)

  Ashley, W. W.

  Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

  Macpherson, J. T.

  Aubrey-Fletcher.Rt. Hon. SirH.

  Duncan.C. (Barrow-in-Furness)

  Marks, H. H. (Kent)

  Balcarres, Lord

  Duncan,Robert(Lanark, Govan

  Meysey-Thompson, E. C.

  Balfour.Rt Hn. A. J. (City Lond.

  Faber, George Denison (York)

  Mildmay, Francis Bingham

  Banbury, Sir Frederick George

  Faber, Capt. W. V. (Hants, W.)

  Morpeth, Viscount

  Banner, John S. Harmood-

  Fardell, Sir T. George

  Muntz, Philip A.

  Barnes, G. N.

  Fell, Arthur

  Nicholson, Wm.G.(Petersfield)

  Barrio, H. T. (Londonderry,N.)

  Fletcher, J. S.

  O'Grady, J.

  Beckett, Hon. Gervase

  Forster, Henry William

  O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens

  Bignold, Sir Arthur

  Gibbs, G. A. (Bristol, West)

  Parker,Sir Gilbert(Gravesend)

  Bowerman, C. W.

  Gill, A. H.

  Parker, James (Halifax)

  Bowles, G. Stewart

  Glover, Thomas

  Parkes, Ebenezer

  Boyle, Sir Edward

  Harrison-Broadley, H. B.

  Ratcliff, Major R. F.

  Bridgeman, W. Clive

  Helmsley, Viscount

  Rawlinson,John Frederick Peel

  Bull, Sir William James

  Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

  Remnant, James Farquharson

  Burdett-Coutts, W.

  Hervey,F.W.F.(BuryS.Edm'ds

  Richards,T.F.(Wolverhampton

  Butcher, Samuel Henry

  Hill, Sir Clement (Shrewsbury)

  Roberts, G. H. (Norwich)

  Byles, William Pollard

  Hills, J. W.

  Roberts,S.(Sheffield. Ecclesall)

  Carlile, E. Hildred

  Hope, John Deans (Fife, West)

  Rothschild,Hon. Lionel Walter

  Castlereagh, Viscount

  Houston, Robert Paterson

  Rutherford, John (Lancashire)

  Cave, George

  Hudson, Walter

  Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool)

  Cavendish,Rt.Hon. Victor C.W.

  Hunt, Rowland

  Salter, Arthur Clavell

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Jowett, F. W.

  Sandys, Lieut.-Col. Thos.Myles

  Chamberlain,Rt.Hn.J.A(Worc.

  Kennaway,Rt.Hon.Sir JohnH.

  Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

  Chaplin, Rt.Hon. Henry

  Kenyon-Slaney, Rt, Hon. Col. W.

  Seddon, J.

  Clynes, J. R.

  King,Sir Henry Seymour(Hull)

  Shackleton, David James

  Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

  Law, Andrew Bonar (Dulwich)

  Sheffield,Sir BerkeleyGeorge D.

  Corbett.A. Cameron (Glasgow)

  Lea,Hugh Cecil (St.Pancras.E.)

  Sloan, Thomas Henry

  Courthope, G. Loyd

  Lee,Arthur H. (Hants., Fareham

  Smith,F.E. (Liverpool.Walton)

  Craig,CharlesCurtis(Antrim,S.)

  Lockwood,Rt,Hn.Lt,-Col.A. R.

  Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)

  Craig.Captain James(Down,E.)

  Long,Col.Charles W.(Evesham

  Starkey, John R.

  590

  591

  Stone, Sir Benjamin

  Vincent, Col. Sir C. E. Howard

  Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)

  Summerbell, T.

  Walker.Col.W.H. (Lancashire)

  Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-

  Sutherland, J. E.

  Walrond, Hon. Lionel

  Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

  Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

  Walsh, Stephen

  Younger, George

  Talbot, Rt. Hn.,T. G. (Oxf dUniv.

  Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid)

  Taylor, John W. (Durham)

  Wardle, George J.

  TELLERS FOB THE NOES—

  Thomson,W.Mitchell (Lanark)

  Williams, J. (Glamorgan)

  Sir Alexander Acland-Hood

  Thorne, William

  Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.)

  and Viscount Valentia.

  Thornton; Percy M.

  Willoughby, De Eresby, Lord

  Clause 9:
  The Committee divided: -Ayes, 277;

  AYES.

  Abraham, William (Rhondda)

  Corbett,C.H.(Sussex,E.Grinst'd

  Haworth, Arthur A.

  Acland, Francis Dyke

  Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.

  Hazel, Dr. A. E.

  Agnew, George William

  Cory, Clifford John

  Hedges, A, Paget

  Ainsworth, John Stirling

  Cotton, Sir H. J. S.

  Helme, Norval Watson

  Alden, Percy

  Cowan, W. H.

  Hemmerde, Edward George

  Allen,A. Acland (Christchurch)

  Craig,Herbert J. (Tynemouth)

  Henderson,J.M.(Aberdeen, W.

  Allen, Charles P. (Stroud)

  Crosfield, A. H.

  Henry, Charles S.

  Armitage, R.

  Crossley, William J.

  Herbert, Colonel Ivor (Mon.,S.

  Armstrong, W. C. Heaton

  Dalziel, James Henry

  Herbert. T. Arnold (Wycombe)

  Ashton, Thomas Gair

  Davies,David (Montgomery Co.

  Higham, John Sharp

  Asquith,Rt.Hn.Herbert Henry

  Davies, Ellis William (Eifion)

  Hobart. Sir Robert

  Astbury, John Meir

  Davies, Timothy (Fulham)

  Hobhouse, Charles E. H.

  Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth)

  Davies, W. Howell (Bristol, S.)

  Holland. Sir William Henry

  Baker,Joseph A.(Finsbury, E.)

  Dewar, Arthur (Edinburgh, S.)

  Holt, Richard Durning

  Barker, John

  Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh.

  Horniman. Emslie John

  Barlow, JohnEmmott(Somerset

  Dickinson, W.H.(St.Pancras,N.

  Horridge. Thomas Gardner

  Barlow, Percy (Bedford)

  Dunne,Major E. Martin (Walsall

  Howard. Hon. Geoffrey

  Barran, Rowland Hirst

  Edwards, Clement (Denbigh)

  Hutton. Alfred Eddison

  Barry, Redmond J. (Tyrone, N.

  Edwards, Enoch (Hanley)

  Hyde. Clarendon

  Beck, A. Cecil

  Edwards, Frank (Radnor)

  Isaacs, Rufus Daniel

  Bell, Richard

  Elibank, Master of

  Jacoby. Sir James Alfred

  Bellairs, Carlyon

  Erskine, David C.

  Johnson, John (Gateshead)

  Benn.Sir J,Williams(Devonp'rt

  Essex, R. W.

  Johnson. W. (Nuneaton)

  Benn,W.(T'w'r Hamlets.S.Geo.

  Esslemont, George Birnie

  Jones.Sir D. Brynmor(Swansaa)

  Bennett, E. N.

  Evans, Samuel T.

  Jones, Leif (Appleby)

  Berridge, T. H. D.

  Eve, Harry Trelawney

  Jones.William (Carnarvonshire

  Bertram, Julius

  Everett, R. Lacey

  Kearley, Hudson E.

  Bethell,SirJ.H.(Essex,Romf'rd

  Fenwick, Charles

  Kekewich, Sir George

  Bethell, T. R. (Essex, Maldon)

  Ferens, T. R,

  Kincaid-Smith, Captain

  Billson, Alfred

  Ferguson, R. C. Munro

  Laidlaw, Robert

  Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine

  Findlay, Alexander

  Lamb, Edmund G. (Leominster

  Brace, William

  Foster) Rt. Hon. Sir Walter

  Lamb. Ernest H. (Rochester)

  Bramsdon, T. A.

  Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

  Lambert. George

  Branch, James

  Fuller, John Michael K.

  Lamont. Norman

  Brigg,John

  Fullerton, Hush

  Layland-Barratt, Francis

  Brocklehurst, W. B.

  Gardner.Col.Alan (Hereford,S.)

  Lehmann, R. C.

  Brodie, H. C.

  Gladstone. Rt. Hn. Herbert John

  Lever.W.H. (Cheshire, Wirral)

  Brooke; Stopford

  Goddard, Daniel Ford

  Levy, Maurice

  Brunner, J.F.L.(Lanes.,Leigh)

  Gooch, George Peabody

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Bryce, J. Annan

  Greenwood, G. (Peterborough)

  Lough, Thomas

  Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn

  Griffith, Ellis J.

  Lupton, Arnold

  Buckmaster, Stanley O.

  Gulland, John W.

  Luttrell, Hugh Fownes

  Burns, Rt. Hon. John

  Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

  Lyell, Charles Henry

  Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas

  Haldane, Rt. Hon. Richard B.

  Lynch. H. B.

  Buxton,Rt.Hn.Sydney Charles

  Hall, Frederick

  Macdonald,J.M.(Falkirk B'ghs)

  Carr-Gomm, H. W.

  Harcourt, Right Hon. Lewis

  Mackarness, Frederic C.

  Causton,Rt. Hn. RichardKnight

  Hardy, George A. (Suffolk)

  Maclean, Donald

  Cawley, Sir Frederick

  Harmsworth, Cecil B. (Worc'r)

  Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.

  Cheetham, John Frederick

  Harmsworth, R.L.(Caithn'ss-sh

  M'Crae, George

  Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R.

  Hart-Davies, T.

  M'Kenna. Rt. Hon. Reginald

  Cleland, J. W.

  Harvey A. G. C. (Rochdale)

  M'Laren. Sir C. B. (Leicester

  Clough, William

  Harvey, W.E.(Derbyshire,N.E.

  M'Laren. H. D. (Stafford, W.)

  Collins, Stephen (Lambeth)

  Harwood, George

  M'Micking, Major G.

  Collins,SirWm.J.(S.Pancras,W.

  Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth)

  Mallet, Charles E.

  Question put, "That the clause stand part of the Bill."
  Noes, 12G. (Division List No. 207.)

  Manfield, Harry (Northan.s)

  Rees, J. D.

  Thompson, J.W.H.( Somerset,E

  Markham, Arthur Basil

  Renton, Major Leslie

  Tomkinson, James

  Marks,G.Croydon(Launceston

  Richards, Thomas (W.Monm'th

  Torrance, Sir A. M.

  Marnham, F. J.

  Robertson, Rt. Hn. E.( Dundee

  Toulmin, George

  Mason, A. E. W. (Coventry)

  Robertson.Sir G.Scott(Bradf'rd

  Trevelyan, Charles Philips

  Massie, J.

  Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside)

  Ure, Alexander

  Menzies, Walter

  Robinson, S.

  Verney, F. W.

  Molteno, Percy Alport

  Robson, Sir William Snowdon

  Walters, John Tudor

  Mond, A.

  Roe, Sir Thomas

  Walton.Sir John L. (Leeds, S.)

  Money, L. G. Chiozza

  Rogers, F. E. Newman

  Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

  Montgomery. H. G

  Rose, Charles Day

  Ward, John (Stoke upon Trent

  Morgan, G. Hay (Cornwall)

  Rutherford, V. H. (Brentford)

  Ward.W.Dudley (Southampt'n

  Morrell, Philip

  Samuel, Herbert L.(Cloveland)

  Waring, Walter

  Morse, L. 1..

  Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel)

  Wilson, Eugene (Clackmannan)

  Morton, Alpheus Cleophas

  Schwann, (C Duncan (Hyde)

  Wason.John Cathcart (Orkney)

  Myer, Horatio

  Schwann.Sir C.E.(Manchester)

  Waterlow, D. S.

  Napier, T. B.

  Seaverns, J H.

  Watt, Henry A.

  Newnes, F. (Notts, Bassetlaw)

  Seely, Major J. B.

  Weir, James Galloway

  Nicholson,Charles N.(Doncast'r

  Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)

  White, George (Norfolk)

  Norton, Capt. Cecil William

  Shaw, Rt. Hon. T. (Hawick B.)

  White, J. D. ( Dumbartonshire)

  Nussey, Thomas Willans

  Sherwell, Arthur James

  White, Luke (York, E.R.)

  Nut-tall, Harry

  Shipman, Dr. John CJ.

  Whitehead, Rowland

  O'Donnell, C. J. (Walworth)

  Silcock. Thomas Ball

  Whitley,John Henry (Halifax)

  Partington, Oswald

  Simon, John Allsebrook

  Whittaker, Sir Thomas Palmer

  Pearce, Robert. (Staffs, Leek)

  Sinclair, Rt. Hon. John

  Wiles, Thomas

  Pearce, William (Limehouse)

  Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie

  Williams, J. (Glamorgan)

  Pearson,Sir W. D.(Colchester)

  Spicer, Sir Albert

  Williams,Llewellyri(Carmarth'n

  Philipps, J. Wynford (Pembroke

  Stanger. H. Y.

  Williamson, A.

  Philipps, Owen C (Pembroke)

  Stanley, H11. A.Lyulph(Chesh.

  Wills, Arthur Walters

  Pickersgill, Edward Hare

  Steadman, W. C

  Wilson, Hn.C.H.W.(Hull, W.)

  Pirie, Duncan V.

  Stewart, Halley (Greenock)

  Wilson John (Durham, Mid.)

  Pollard. Dr.

  Strachey, Sir Edward

  Wilson, P. W. (St. Pancras, S.)

  Price.C. E.(Edinburgh,Central)

  Straus, B. S.(Mile End)

  Winfrey, R.

  Price, Robert John(Norfolk,E.)

  Strauss, E. A. (Abingdon)

  Wood, T. M'Kinnon

  Priestley. Arthur (Grantham)

  Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth)

  Yoxall, James Henry

  Priestley, W. K.B.( Bradford, K.)

  Taylor, Theodore C.(Radcliffe)

  Radford, (G. H.

  Tennant, Sir Edward( Salisbury

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—.Mr.

  Rainy, A. Rolland

  Tennant, H. J.(Berwickshire)

  Whiteley and Mr. J. A. Pease.

  Raphael, Herbert H.

  Thomas,Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.)

  Pease.

  Rea, Russell (Gloucester)

  Thomasson, Franklin

  NOES.

  Acland-Hood,Rt.Hn.SirAlex.F

  Clynes, J. R.

  Houston, Robert Paterson

  Anson, Sir William Reynell

  Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

  Hudson, Walter

  Anstruther-Gray, Major

  Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow)

  Hunt, Rowland

  Arkwright, John Stanhope

  Courthope, G. Loyd

  Jowett, F. W.

  Ashley, W. W.

  Craig.Charles Curtis (Antrim,S.

  Kennaway,Rt. Hon. Sir John H.

  Aubrey-Fletchcr,Rt.Hon.Sir H

  Craig.Captain James (Down, E.

  Kenyon-Slaney,Rt.Hon.Col. W.

  Balfour.Rt Hn.A..T.(City bond.

  Craik, Sir Henry

  King,Sir Henry Seymour (Hull)

  Banbury. Sir Frederick George

  Crooks, William

  Law, Andrew Bonar (Dulwich)

  Banner,.John S. Harmood

  Dalrymple, Viscount

  Lea,Hugh Cecil (St. Pancras, E.

  Barnes, G N.

  Dilke, Rt, Hon. Sir Charles

  Lee.Arthur H.(Hants.,Fareham

  Barrie, H T.( Londonderry, N.)

  Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers

  Lockwood,Rt.Hn.Lt.-Col.A. R.

  Beckett, Hon. Gervase

  Duncan, C (Barrow-in-Furness

  Long,Col.Charles W.(Evesham)

  Bignold,.Sir Arthur

  Duncan,Robert (Lanark,Govan

  Lonsdale, John Brownlee

  Bowerman, C. W

  Faber, George Dension (York)

  Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred

  Bowles, G. Stewart

  Faber.Capt, W. V. (Hants, W.)

  Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester)

  Boyle, Sir Edward

  Fardell, Sir T. George

  Macpherson, J. T.

  Bridgeman, W.Clive

  Fell, Arthur

  Marks, H. H. (Kent)

  Bull, Sir William James

  Fletcher, J. S.

  Meysey-Thompson, E. C.

  Burdett-Coutts, \

  Forster, Henry William

  Mildmay, Francis Bingham

  Butcher, Samuel Henry

  Gibbs, G. A. (Bristol, West)

  Morpeth, Viscount

  Byles, William Pollard

  Gill, A. H.

  Muntz, Sir Philip A.

  Carlile, E. Hildred

  Glover, Thomas

  Nicholson,Wm. G. (Petersfield)

  Castlereagh, Viscount

  Harrison-Broadley, H. B.

  O'Grady, J.

  Cave, George

  Helmsley, Viscount

  O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens

  Cavendish, Rt.Hn. Victor C. W.

  Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

  Parker, Sir Gilbert (Gravesend)

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Hervey,F.W.F.(BuryS. Edm'ds

  Parker, James (Halifax)

  Chamberlain,Rt Hn.J.A.(Wore.

  Hill, Sir Clement (Shrewsbury)

  Parkes, Ebenezer

  Channing, Sir Francis Allston

  Hills, J. W.

  Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

  Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry

  Hope, John Deans (Fife, West)

  Ratcliff, Major R, F.

  594

  595

  Rawlinson,JohnFrederick Peel

  Sloan, Thomas Henry

  Walsh, Stephen

  Remnant, James Farquharson

  Smith.F.E. (Liverpool,Walton)

  Warde, Col. C E. (Kent, Mid.)

  Richards,T. F.(Wolverh'mpt'n)

  Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)

  Wardle, George J.

  Roberts, G. H. (Norwich)

  Starkey, John R.

  Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.)

  Roberts.S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall)

  Stone, Sir Benjamin

  Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

  Rothschild,Hon. Lionel Walter

  Summerbell, T.

  Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton )

  Rutherford, John (Lancashire)

  Sutherland, J. E.

  Wortley,Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-

  Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool)

  Talbot.Rt.Hn. J.G (Oxf'dUniv.

  Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

  Salter, Arthur Clavell

  Taylor, John W. (Durham)

  Younger, George

  Sandys, Lieut.-Col. Thos Myles

  Thomson,W. Mitchell (Lanark)

  Scott,A.H.(Ashton under Lyne

  Thorne, William

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—

  Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

  Valentia, Viscount

  Lord Edmund Talbot and

  Seddon, J.

  Vincent, Col. Sir( E. Howard

  Lord Balcarres.

  Shackleton, David James

  Walker,Col.W.H. (Lancashire)

  Sheflicld,SirBerkeloyGeorge D.

  Walrond, Hon. Lionel

  Clause 10:
  The Committee divided:—Ayes, 281;

  AYES.

  Abraham, William (Rhondda)

  Cawley, Sir Frederick

  Gulland, John W.

  Acland, Francis Dyke

  Channing, Sir Francis Allston

  Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

  Agnew, George William

  Cheetham, John Frederick

  Haldane, Rt. Hon. Richard B.

  Ainsworth, John Stirling

  Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R.

  Hall, Frederick

  Alden, Percy

  Cleland, J. W.

  Harcourt, Et. Hon. Lewis

  Allen,A.Acland (Christchurch)

  Clough, William

  Hardy, George A. (Suffolk)

  Allen, Charles P. (Stroud)

  Collins, Stephen (Lambeth)

  Harmsworth, Cecil B. (Wore'r)

  Armitage, R.

  Collins,SirWm.J.(S.Pancras W.

  Harmsworth,R.L.(Caithn'ss-sh

  Armstrong, W. C. Heaton

  Corbett,C.H.(Sussex,E.Grinst'd

  Hart-Davies, T.

  Ashton, Thomas Gair

  Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.

  Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale)

  Asquith,Rt.Hon HerbertHenry

  Cory, Clifford John

  Harvey, W.E.(Derbyshire,N.E.

  Astbury, John Meir

  Cotton, Sir H. J. S.

  Harwood, George

  Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth)

  Cowan, W. H.

  Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth)

  Baker, Joseph A. (Finsbury, E.)

  Craig. Herbert J. (Tynemouth)

  Haworth, Arthur A.

  Barker, John

  Crosfield, A. H.

  Hazel, Dr. A. E.

  Barlow, JohnEmmott(Somerset

  Crossley, William J.

  Hedges, A. Paget

  Barlow, Percy (Bedford)

  Dalziel, James Henry

  Helme, Norval Watson

  Barran, Rowland Hirst

  Davies,David (MontgomeryCo.

  Hemmerde, Edward George

  Barry,Redmond J. (Tyrone,N.)

  Davies, Ellis William (Eifion)

  Henderson,J.M.(Aberdeen, W.)

  Beck, A. Cecil

  Davies, Timothy (Fulham)

  Henry, Charles S.

  Bell, Richard

  Davies, W. Howell (Bristol, S.)

  Herbert.Colonel Ivor (Mon., S.)

  Bellairs, Carlyon

  Dewar, Arthur (Edinburgh, S.)

  Herbert, T. Arnold (Wycombe)

  Benn,SirJ.Williams (Devonp'rt

  Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh.)

  Higham, John Sharp

  Benn, W.(T'w'rHamlets,S.Geo.

  Dickinson,W.H. (St.Pancras.N.

  Hobart, Sir Robert

  Bennett, E. N.

  Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

  Hobhouse, Charles E. H.

  Berridge, T. H. D.

  Dunne, MajorE.Martin(Walsall

  Holland, Sir William Henry

  Bertram, Julius

  Edwards, Clement (Denbigh)

  Holt, Richard Durning

  Bethell, SirJ.H.(Essex,Romf'rd

  Edwards, Enoch (Hanley)

  Hope, John Deans (Fife, West)

  Bethell, T. It. (Essex, Maldon)

  Edwards, Frank (Radnor)

  Horniman, Emslie John

  Billson, Alfred

  Erskine, David C.

  Horridge, Thomas Gardner

  Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine

  Essex, R. W.

  Howard, Hon. Geoffrey

  Brace, William

  Esslemont, George Birnie

  Hutton, Alfred Eddison

  Bramsdon, T. A.

  Evans, Samuel T.

  Hyde, Claredon

  Branch, James

  Eve, Harry Trelawney

  Isaacs, Rufus Daniel

  Brigg, John

  Everett, R. Lacey

  Jacoby, Sir James Alfred

  Brocklehurst, W. B.

  Fenwick, Charles

  Johnson, John (Gateshead)

  Brodie, H. C,

  Ferens, T. R.

  Johnson, W. (Nuncaton)

  Brooke, Stopford

  Findlay, Alexander

  Jones, Sir D.Brynmor(Swansea

  Brunner, J.F.L. (Lanes., Leigh)

  Foster, Rt. Hon. Sir Walter

  Jones, Leif (Appleby)

  Bryce, J. Annan

  Fuller, John Michael F.

  Jones,William (Carnarvonshire

  Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn

  Fullerton, Hugh

  Kearley, Hudson E.

  Buckmaster, Stanley O.

  Furness, Sir Christopher

  Kekewich, Sir George

  Burns, Rt. Hon. John

  Gardner, Col. Alan (Hereford.S.

  Kincaid-Smith, Captain

  Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas

  Gladstone, Rt.Hn.HerbertJohn

  Laidlaw, Robert

  Buxton, Rt.Hn.Sydney Charles

  Goddard, Daniel Ford

  Lamb, Edmund G.(Leominster

  Byles, William Pollard

  Gooch, George Peabody

  Lamb, Ernest H. (Rocheter)

  Carr-Gomm, H. W.

  Greenwood, G. (Peterborough)

  Lambert, George

  Causton,Rt.Hn.RichrdKnight

  Griffith, Ellis J.

  Lamont, Norman

  Question put, "That the clause stand part of the Bill."
  Noes, 120. (Division List No. 208.)

  Layland-Barratt, Francis

  Pearson, SirW.D. (Colchester)

  Straus, B. S. (Mile End)

  Lehmann, R. C.

  Philipps, J. Wynford(Pembroke

  Strauss. E. A. (Abingdon)

  Lever, W.H. (Cheshire, Wirral)

  Philipps, Owen C. (Pembroke)

  Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth)

  Levy, Maurice

  Pickersgill, Edward Hare

  Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Pirie, Duncan V.

  Tennant,SirEdward(Salisbury)

  Lough, Thomas

  Pollard, Dr.

  Tennant, H. J. (Berwickshire)

  Lupton, Arnold

  Price, C. E. (Edinb'gh.Central)

  Thomas,SirA.(Glamorgan,E.)

  Lyell, Charles Henry

  Price, Robert John( Norfolk, E.)

  Thomasson, Franklin

  Lynch, H. B.

  Priestley, Arthur (Grantham)

  Thormpson,J.W.H.(Somerset,E

  Macdonald,J.M.(FalkirkB'ghs)

  Priestley, W.E. B. (Bradford.E.)

  Tomkinson, James

  Mackarness, Frederic C.

  Radford, G. H.

  Torrance, Sir A. M.

  Maclean, Donald

  Rainy, A. Rolland

  Toulmin, George

  Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.

  Raphael, Herbert. H.

  Trevelyan, Charles Philips

  M'Crae, George

  Rea, Russell (Gloucester)

  Ure, Alexander

  M'Kenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald

  Rees, J. D.

  Verney, F. W.

  M'Laren, Sir C. B. (Leicester)

  Renton, Major Leslie

  Walters, John Tudor

  M'Laren, H. D. (Stafford, W.)

  Richards, Thomas(W.Monm'th

  Walton, Sir John L. (Leeds,S.)

  M'Micking, Major G.

  Robertson,Rt.Hn.E. (Dundee)

  Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

  Maddison, Frederick

  Robertson,SirG.Scott(Bradf'rd

  Ward, John (Stoke upon Trent

  Mallet, Charley E.

  Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside)

  Ward, W.Dudley( Southampton

  Manfield, Harry (Northants)

  Robinson, S.

  Waring, Walter

  Markham, Arthur Basil

  Robson, Sir William Snowdon

  Wason, Eugene(Clackmannan)

  Marks,G.Croydon(Launceston)

  Roe, Sir Thomas

  Wason,John Cathcart( Orkney)

  Marnham, F. J.

  Rogers, F. E. Newman

  Waterlow, D. S.

  Mason, A. E. W (Coventry)

  Ross, Charles Day

  Watt, Henry A.

  Massie, J.

  Rutherford, V. H. (Brentford)

  Weir. James Galloway

  Menzies, Walter

  Samuel, Herbert-L. (Cleveland)

  White, George (Norfolk)

  Molteno,Percy Alport

  Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel)

  White, J. D. (Dumbartonshire)

  Mond, A.

  Schwann, C. Duncan (Hyde)

  White, Luke (York, E.R.)

  Money, L. G. Chiozza

  Schwann,SirC.E.( Manchester)

  Whitehead, Rowland

  Montgomery, H. G

  Scott, A. H.(AshtonunderLyne)

  Whitley, John Henry (Halifax)

  Morgan, G. Hay (Cornwall)

  Seaverns, J. H.

  Whittaker, Sir Thomas Palmer

  Morrell, Philip

  Seely, Major J. B.

  Wiles, Thomas

  Morse, L. L.

  Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)

  Williams, J. (Glamorgan)

  Morion, Alpheus Cleophas

  Shaw, Rt. Hon. T. (HawickB.)

  Williams,Llewelyn(Carmarth'n

  Myer, Horatio

  Sherwell, Arthur James

  Williamson, A.

  Napier, T. B.

  Shipman, Dr. John G.

  Wills, Arthur Walters

  Newnes, F (Notts Bastlaw)

  Silcock, Thomas Ball

  Wilson, Hon. C. H.W.(Hull,W.

  Newnes Sir George (Swansea)

  Simon, John Allsebrook

  Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)

  Nicholson.Charles.N (Doncast'r

  Sinclair, Rt. Hon. John

  Wilson, P. W. (St. Pancras, S.)

  Norton. Capt. Cecil William

  Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie

  Winfrey, R.

  Nussey, Thomas Willans

  Spicer, Sir Albert

  Wood. T. M'Kinnon

  Nuttall, Harry

  Granger, H. Y.

  Yoxall, James Henry

  O'Donnell, C.J. (Walworth)

  Stanley, Hn. A. Lyulph (Chesh.)

  Partington, Oswald

  Steadman, W. C.

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr.

  Pearce, Robert (Staffs., Leek)

  Stewart, Halley (Greenock)

  Whiteley and Mr. J. A.

  Pearce, William (Limehouse)

  Strachey, Sir Edward

  Pease.

  NOES.

  Anson, Sir William Reynell

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Gill, A. H.

  Anstruther-Gray, Major

  Chamberlain,RtHn.J.A.(Worc.

  Glover, Thomas

  Arkwright, John Stanhope

  Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry

  Harrison-Broadley, H. B.

  Ashley, W. W.

  Clynes, J. R.

  Helmsley, Viscount

  Aubrey-Fletcher,Rt.Hon.SirH.

  Coates, E. Feetham (Lewisham

  Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

  Balcarres. Lord

  Cochrane, Hon. Thos, H. A. E.

  Hervey,F.W.F.(BuryS. Edm'ds

  Balfour, RtHn.A.J.(CityLond.)

  Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow)

  Hill.SirClement (Shrewsbury)

  Banbury, Sir Frederick George

  Courthope, G. Loyd

  Hills, J. W.

  Banner, John S. Harmood-

  Craig, CharlesCurtis(Antrim, S.

  Houston, Robert Paterson

  Barnes, G. N.

  Craig, Captain James( Down, E.)

  Hudson, Walter

  Barrie, H. T. (Londonderry,N.)

  Craik, Sir Henry

  Hunt. Rowland

  Beckett, Hon. Gervase

  Crooks, William

  Jowett, F. W.

  Bowerman, C. W.

  Dalrymple, Viscount

  Kennaway.Rt. Hon.Sir JohnH.

  Bowles, G. Stewart

  Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

  Kenyon-Slaney,Rt.Hon.C'ol.W.

  Boyle, Sir Edward

  Duncan, C.(Barrow-in-Furness

  King,SirHenrySeymour(Hull)

  Bridgeman, W. Clive

  Duncan, Robert (Lanark,Govan

  Law, Andrew Bonar (Dulwich

  Bull, Sir William James

  Faber, George Denison (York)

  Lea,HughCecil(St.Pancras, E.)

  Burdett-Coutts, W.

  Faber. Capt.W. V. (Hants, W.)

  Lee, ArthurH.( Hants.,Fareham

  Butcher, Samuel Henry

  Fardell, Sir T. George

  Lockwood,Rt.Hn.Lt.-Col.A.R.

  Carlile, E. Hildred

  Fell, Arthur

  Lonsdale, John Brownlee

  Castlereagh, Viscount

  Fletcher, J. P.

  Luttrell, Hugh Fownes

  Cave, George

  Forster, Henry William

  Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred

  Cavendish, Rt. Hon. VictorC. W.

  Gibbs, G. A. ('Bristol, West)

  Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester)

  598

  599

  Macpherson, J. T.

  Rutherford, John (Lancashire)

  Thornton, Percy M.

  Marks, H. H. (Kent)

  Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool)

  Vincent. Col, Sir C. E. Howard

  Meysey-Thompson, E. (

  Salter, Arthur Clavell

  Walker,Col.W.H.(Lancashire)

  Middlemore, JohnThrogmorton

  Sandys, Lieut. -Col.Thos.Myles

  Walrond, Hon. Lionel

  Mildmay, Francis Bingham

  Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

  Walsh, Stephen

  Morpeth, Viscount

  Seddon, J.

  Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid.)

  Muntz, Sir Philip A.

  Shackleton, David James

  Wardle, George J.

  Nicholson, Wm.G.(Petersfield)

  Sheffield,SirBerkeleyGeorgeD.

  Williams. Col.R, (Dorset, W.)

  O'Grady, J.

  Sloan, Thomas Henry

  Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

  O'Neill," Hon. Robert Torrens

  Smith,F.E. (Liverpool,Walton)

  Wilson. W. T. (Westhoughton)

  Parker,SirGilbert(Gravesend)

  Starkey, John R.

  Wortley. Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-

  Parker, James (Halifax)

  Stone, Sir Benjamin

  Wyndham. Rt. Hon. George

  Parkes, Ebenezer

  Summerbell, T.

  Younger. George

  Rawlinson,JohnFrederickPeel

  Sutherland, J. K.

  Remnant, James Farquharson

  Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

  Richards, T.F.(Wolverh'mpt'n

  Talbot,Rt,Hn.J.G.(Oxf d Univ.

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Sir

  Roberts, G. H. (Norwich)

  Taylor, John W. (Durham)

  Alexander Acland - Hood and Viscount Valentia.

  Roberts,S.(Slieffield,Ecclesall)

  Thomson,W.Mitchell- (Lanark)

  Rothschild, Hon.Lionel Walter

  Thorne, William

  Clause 11:
  Question put, "That the clause stand part of the Bill."

  AYES.

  Abraham, William (Rhondda)

  Burns, Rt. Hon. John

  Fenwick, Charles

  Acland, Francis Dyke

  Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas

  Ferens. T. R,

  Agnew, George William

  Buxton,Rt. Hn.SydneyCharles

  Ferguson, R. C. Munro

  Ainsworth, John Stirling

  Byles, William Pollard

  Findlay. Alexander

  Alden, Percy

  CarrGomm, H. W.

  Foster Rt. Hon. Sir Walter

  Allen.A Acland(Christehurch)

  Causton,Rt.HnRichard Knight

  Fuller, John Michael F.

  Allen, Charles P. (Stroud)

  Cawley, Sir Frederick

  Fullerton, Hugh

  Armitage, R.

  Channing, Sir Francis Allston

  Furness, Sir Christopher

  Armstrong, W. C. Heaton

  Cheetham, John Frederick

  Gardner.Col.Alan(Hereford,S.)

  Ashton, Thomas Gair

  Cherry, Rt, Hon. R. R,

  Gill, A. H.

  Asquith.Rt.Hon HerbertHenry

  Cleland, J. W.

  Gladstone,Rt. Hn HerbertJohn

  Astbury, John Meir

  Clough, William

  Glover, Thomas

  Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth)

  Clynes, J. R.

  Goddard, Daniel Ford

  Baker,Joseph A (Finsbury,E)

  Collins, Stephen (Lambeth)

  Gooch. George Peabody

  Barker, John

  Collins,SirWm J.(S.Pancras,W.

  Greenwood, G. (Peterborough)

  Barlow, JohnKmmott(Somerset

  Corbett,C.H. (Sussex,EGrinst'd

  Griffith. Ellis J.

  Barlow, Percy (Bedford)

  Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.

  Gulland. John W.

  Barnes, G. N.

  Cory, Clifford John

  Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

  Barran, Rowland Hirst

  Cotton, Sir H. J. S.

  Haldane, Rt, Hon. Richard B.

  Barry,Redmond J.(Tyrone,N.)

  Cowan, W. H.

  Hall, Frederick

  Beck, A. Cecil

  Craig, Herbert J(Tynemouth)

  Harcourt, Rt, Hon. Lewis

  Bell, Richard

  Crooks, William

  Hardy. George A. (Suffolk)

  Bellairs, Carlyon

  Crosfield, A. H.

  Harmsworth, Cecil B.(Worc'r)

  Benn,Sir J Williams(Devonp'rt

  Crossley. William J.

  Harmsworth R.L. (Caithn'ss-sh

  Benn,W.(T'W'r Hamlets,S.Geo.

  Dalziel, James Henry

  Hart-Davies, T.

  Bennett, E. N.

  Davies, David (MontgomeryCo.

  Harvey. A. C. G. (Rochdale)

  Berridge, T. H. D.

  Davies, Ellis William (Eifion)

  Harvey, W.E.(Derbyshire, N.E.

  Bertram, Julius

  Davies, Timothy (Fulham)

  Harwood, George

  Bethell,SirJ.H (Essex,Romf'rd

  Davies, W.Howell (Bristol, S.)

  Haslam. Lewis (Monmouth)

  Bethell, T. R. (Essex, Maldon)

  Dewar, Arthur (Edinburgh, S.)

  Ha worth, Arthur A.

  Billson, Alfred

  Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh.

  Hazel. Dr. A. E.

  Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine

  Dickinson, W. H.(St.Pancras,N.

  Hedges, A. Paget

  Bowerman, C. W.

  Duncan, C,(Barrow-in-Furness

  Helme, Norval Watson

  Brace, William

  Dunne,MajorE Martin(Walsall)

  Hemmerde, Edward George

  Bramsdon, T. A.

  Edwards, Clement (Denbigh)

  Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

  Branch, James

  Edwards, Enoch (Hanley)

  Henry. Charles S.

  Brigg, John

  Edwards, Frank (Radnor)

  Herbert. Colonel Ivor (Mon. S)

  Brocklehurst, W. B.

  Elibank, Master of

  Herbert,T. Arnold (Wycombe)

  Brodie, H. C.

  Erskine, David C.

  Higham, John Sharp

  Brooke, Stopford

  Essex, R. W.

  Hobart, Sir Robert

  Brunner,J.F.L.(Lancs., Leigh)

  Esslemont, George Birnie

  Hobhouse. Charles E. H.

  Bryce, J. Annan

  Evans, Samuel T.

  Holland, Sir William Henry

  Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn

  Eve, Harry Trelawney

  Holt, Richard Durning

  Buckmaster, Stanley O

  Everett, R. Lacey

  Hope, John Deans (Fife, West)

  The Committee divided:—Ayes, 300; Noes, 99. (Division List No. 209.)

  Horniman, Emslic John

  Morton, Alpleus Cleophas

  Spicer, Sir Albert

  Horridge, Thomas Gardner

  Myer, Horatio

  Stanger, H. Y.

  Howard, Hon. Geoffrey

  Napier, T. B.

  Stanley,Hn. A. Lyulph(Chesh.)

  Hudson, Walter

  Newnes, F. (Notts, Bassetlaw)

  Steadman, W. C.

  Hut-ton, Alfred Eddison

  Newnes, Sir George (Swansea)

  Stewart, Halley (Greenock)

  Hyde, Clarendon

  Nicholson. Charles N.( Doncaster

  Strachey, Sir Edward

  Isaacs, Rufus Daniel

  Norton, Capt. Cecil William

  Straus, B. S (Mile End)

  Jacoby, Sir James Alfred

  Nussey, Thomas Willans

  Strauss, E. A. (Abingdon)

  Johnson, John (Gateshead)

  Nuttall, Harry

  Summerbell, T.

  Johnson, W. (Nuneaton)

  O'Donnell, C. J. (Walworth)

  Sutherland, J. E.

  Jones,Sir I). Brynmor(Swansea)

  Parker, James (Halifax)

  Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth)

  Jones, Leif (Appleby)

  Partington, Oswald

  Taylor, John W. (Durham)

  Jones,William (Carnarvonshire

  Pearce, Robert (Staffs. Leek)

  Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)

  Jowett, F. W.

  Pearce, William (Limehouse)

  Tennant, Sir Ed ward( Salisbury

  Kearley, Hudson E.

  Pearson.Sir W. D. (Colchester)

  Tennant, H. J. (Berwickshire)

  Kekewich, Sir George

  Philipps,J Wynford (Pembroke

  Thomas,Sir A(Glamorgan, E.)

  Kineaid-Smith, Captain

  Philips, Owen C. (Pembroke)

  Thompson,J.W.H.(Somerset,E.

  Laidlaw, Robert

  Pickersgill, Edward Hare

  Tomkinson, James

  Lamb,Edmund G. (Leominster)

  Pirie, Duncan V.

  Toulmin, George

  Lamb, Ernest- H. (Rochester)

  Pollard, Dr.

  Trevelyan, Charles Philips

  Lamont, Norman

  Price.C. E. (Erlinb'gh.Central)

  Ure. Alexander

  Layland- Barratt, Franc is

  Price,Robert John( Norfolk, E.)

  Verney, F. W.

  Lea,Hugh Cecil(St. Pancras,E.)

  Priestley, Arthur (Grantham)

  Walsh, Stephen

  Lehmann, R. C.

  Priestley,W.E. B.( Bradford, E.)

  Walters. John Tudor

  Lover, (Cheshire, Wirral)

  Radford, G. H.

  Walton, Sir John L.(Leeds. S.)

  Levy, Maurice

  Rainy, A. Rolland

  Walton. Joseph (Barnsley)

  Lewis..John Herbert

  Raphael, Herbert H.

  Ward. John (Stoke upon Trent)

  Lough, Thomas

  Rea. Russell (Gloucester)

  Ward.W. Dudley(Southampton

  Lupton, Arnold

  Rees, J. D.

  Wart Me, George J.

  Luttrell, Hugh Fownes

  Renton, Major Leslie

  Waring, Walter

  Lyell, Charles Henry

  Richards,Thomas( W. Monm'th

  Wason, Eugene(Clackmannan)

  Lynch, H. B.

  Richards, T.F.( Wolverhsimpt'n

  Wason,John Catheart (Orkney)

  Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester)

  Roberts, G. H. (Norwich)

  Warerlow, D. S.

  Macdonald,J.M.(Falkirk B'ghs

  Robertson,Rt. Hn. E. (Dundee)

  Watt, Henry A.

  Mackarness, Frederic; C.

  Robertson, SirG. Scot t( Bradford

  Weir. James Gelioway

  Maclean, Donald

  Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside)

  White, George (Notfolk)

  Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.

  Robinson, S.

  White, J. D. (Dumbartonshire)

  M'Crae, George

  Robson, Sir William Snowdon

  White, Luke (York, E.R.)

  M'Kenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald

  Roe, Sir Thomas

  Whitehead, Rowland

  M'Laren, Sir C. B. (Leicester)

  Rogers. F. E. Newman

  Whitley,John Henry (Halifax)

  M'Laren, H. I). (Stafford, W.)

  Rose, Charles Day

  Whittaker, Sir Thomas Paimer

  M'Micking, Major G.

  Rutherford, V. H. (Brentford)

  Wiles, Thomas

  Maddison, Frederick

  Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)

  Williams, J. (Glamorgan)

  Mallet, Charles E.

  Samuel, S. M. (White-chapel)

  Williams,Lleweiyn( Carmarthen

  Manfield, Harry (Northants)

  Schwann, (Duncan (Hyde)

  Williamson, A.

  Markham, Arthur Basil

  Schwann,Sir C. K.(Manchester)

  Wills, Arthur Walters

  Marks,G. Croydon(Launceston)

  Scott,A.H.(Ashton under Lyne

  Wilson, Hon.C.H.W.(Hull, W.)

  Marnham, F. J.

  Seaverns, J. H.

  Wilson, John (Durham, Mid)

  Mason, A. E. W. (Coventry)

  Seely, Major J. B.

  Wilson. P. W. (St. Pancras, S.)

  Massie, J.

  Shackleton, David James

  Winfrey, R.

  Menzies. Walter

  Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)

  Wood, T. M'Kinnon

  Molteno, Percy Alport

  Shaw. Rt, Hon. T. (Hawick B.)

  Yoxall. James Henry

  Mond, A.

  Sherwell, Arthur James

  Money, L. G. Chiozza

  Shipman, Dr. John G.

  Montgomery, H. C.

  Silcock, Thomas Ball

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr.

  Morgan, G. Hay (Cornwall)

  Simon, John Allsebrook

  Whiteley and Mr. J. A. Pease.

  Morrell, Philip"

  Sinclair, Rt. Hon. John

  Morse, L. L.

  Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie

  NOES.

  Acland-Hood.RtHn.SirAlex.F.

  Bowles, G. Stewart

  Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry

  Anson, Sir William Reynell j

  Boyle, Sir Edward

  Coates, E. Feetham(Lewisham)

  Anstruther-Gray, Major.

  Bridgeman, W. Clive

  Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

  Ark Wright, John Stanhope

  Bull, Sir William James

  Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow)

  Ashley; W. W.

  Burdett-Coutts, W.

  Courthope, G. Loyd

  Aubrey-Fletcher.Rt.Hon.SirH.

  Butcher, Samuel Henry

  Craig,CharlesCurtis(Antrim, S.)

  Balfour.Rt HnA.J.(City Lond, '

  Carlile, K. Hil Ired

  Craig.Captain James( Down, E.)

  Banbury. Sir Frederick George

  Castlereagh, Viscount

  Craik, Sir Henry

  Banner, John S. Harmood-

  Cave, George

  Dalrymple, Viscount

  Barrie,H. T. (Londonderry.N.)

  Cavendish, Rt. Hon. Victor C.W.

  Douglas. Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

  Beckert, Hon. Gervase

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Faber, George Denison (York)

  Bignold, Sir Arthur

  Chamberlain,RtHn.J.A.(Worc.

  Faber, Capt.W. V. (Hants,W.)

  602

  603

  Fardell, Sir T. George

  Middlemore, John Throgmorton

  Starkey, John R.

  Fell, Arthur

  Mildmay, Francis Bingham

  Stone, Sir Benjamin

  Fletcher, J. S.

  Morpeth, Viscount

  Talbot,Rt.Hn.J.G.(Oxfd Univ.

  Forster, Henry William

  Muntz, Sir Philip A.

  Thomson. W. Mitchell (Lanark)

  Gibbs, G. A. (Bristol, West)

  Nicholson, Wm. G.(Petersfield)

  Thorne, William

  Harrison-Broadley, H. B.

  O'Grady, J.

  Thornton, Percy M.

  Helmsley, Viscount

  Parker, Sir Gilbert (Gravesend)

  Valentia, Viscount

  Hervey,F.W.F.(BuryS.Edmd's

  Parkes, Ebenezer

  Vincent, ('ol. Sir C. E. Howard

  Hill, Sir Clement (Shrewsbury)

  Ratcliff, Major R. F.

  Walker, Col.W.H.(Lancashire)

  Hills, J. W.

  Rawlinson.John Frederick Peel

  Walrond, Hon. Lionel

  Houston, Robert Paterson

  Remnant, James Farquharson

  Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid)

  Hunt, Rowland

  Roberts, S.(Sheffield, Ecclesall)

  Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.)

  Kennaway,Rt.Hn. Sir John H.

  Rothschild, Hon. Lionel Walter

  Willoughby dc Eresby, Lord

  Kenyon-Slaney, Rt.Hn. Col.W.

  Rutherford, John (Lancashire)

  Wilson. W. T. (Westhoughton)

  King,Sir Henry Seymour (Hull)

  Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool)

  Wortley,Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-

  Lee.Arthur H. (Hants., Fareham

  Salter, Arthur Clavell

  Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

  Lockwood,Rt.Hn.Lt,-Col. A.R.

  Sandys, Lieut-Col. Thos. Myles

  Younger, George

  Long,Col.Charles W.(Evesham)

  Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

  Lonsdale, John Brownlee

  Seddon, J.

  Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred

  Sheffield,Sir Berkeley GeorgeD.

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Lord

  Macpherson, J. T.

  Sloan, Thomas Henry

  Edmund Talbot and Lord

  Marks, H. H. (Kent)

  Smith,F.E.(Liverpool, Walton)

  Balcarres.

  Meysey-Thomson, E. C.

  Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)

  Clause 12:
  Question put, "That the clause stand part of the Bill."

  AYES.

  Abraham, William (Rhondda)

  Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn

  Essex, R. W.

  Acland, Francis Dyke

  Buckmaster, Stanley O.

  Esslemont, George Birnie

  Agnew, George William

  Burns, Rt. Hon. John

  Evans, Samuel T.

  Ainsworth, John Stirling

  Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas

  Eve, Harry Trelawney

  Alden, Percy

  Buxton.Rt.Hn.Sydney Charles

  Everett, R. Lacey

  Allen,A.Acland (Christchurch)

  Byles, William Pollard

  Fenwick, Charles

  Allen, Charles P, (Stroud)

  Carr-Gomm, H. W.

  Ferens, T. R.

  Armitage, R.

  Causton, Rt. Hn. RichardKnight

  Ferguson. R. C. Munro

  Armstrong, W. C. Heaton

  Cawley, Sir Frederick

  Findlay, Alexander

  Ashton, Thomas Gair

  Cheetham, John Frederick

  Foster, Rt, Hon. Sir Walter

  Asquith,Rt.Hn.Herbert Henry

  Cherry, Rt, Hon. R. R.

  Fuller, John Michael F.

  Astbury, John Meir

  Cleland, J. W.

  Fullerton, Hugh

  Baker Sir John (Portsmouth)

  Clough, William

  Furness, Sir Christopher

  Baker, Joseph A.(Finsbury,E.)

  Clynes, J. R.

  Gardner,Col.Alan (Hereford.S.)

  Barker, John

  Collins, Stephen (Lambeth)

  Gill, A. H.

  Barlow,JohnEmmott (Somerset

  Collins,SirWm.J.(S.Pancras,W.

  Gladstone. Rt.Hn.HerbertJohn

  Barlow, Percy (Bedford)

  Corbett,C.H.(Sussex,E.Grinsfd

  Glover, Thomas

  Barran, Rowland Hirst

  Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.

  Goddard. Daniel Ford

  Barry, Redmond J.(Tyrone,N.)

  Cory, Clifford John

  Gooch, George Peabody

  Beck, A. Cecil

  Cotton, Sir H. J. S.

  Greenwood, G. (Peterborough)

  Bellairs, Carlyon

  Cowan, W. H.

  Griffith, Ellis J.

  Benn,SirJ.Williams(Devonport

  Craig, Herbert J.(Tynemouth)

  Gulland, John W.

  Benn,W.(T'w'r Hamlets.S.Geo.

  Crooks, William

  Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

  Bennett, E. N.

  Crosfield, A. H.

  Haldane, Rt. Hon. Richard B.

  Berridge, T. H. D.

  Crossley, William J.

  Hall, Frederick

  Bertram, Julius

  Dalziel, James Henry

  Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Lewis

  Bethell Sir J.H.(Essex,Romf'rd

  Davies, David (Montgomery Co

  Hardy, George A. (Suffolk)

  Bethell, T. R. (Essex, Maldon)

  Davies, Ellis William (Eifion)

  Harmsworth, Cecil B. (Worc'r)

  Billson, Alfred

  Davies, Timothy (Fulham)

  Harmsworth,R.L.(Caithness-sh

  Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine

  Davies, W. Howell (Bristol, S.)

  Hart-Davies, T.

  Bowerman, C. W.

  Dewar, Arthur (Edinburgh, S.)

  Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale)

  Brace, William

  Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh.)

  Harvey, W.E. (Derbyshire,N.E.

  Bramsdon, T. A.

  Dickinson, W.H.(St,Pancras,N.

  Harwood, George

  Branch, James

  Duncan.C. (Barrow-in-Furness)

  Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth)

  Brigg, John

  Dunne,Major E.Martin(Walsall

  Haworth, Arthur A.

  Brocklehurst, W. B.

  Edwards, Clement Denbigh)

  Hazel, Dr. A. E.

  Brodie, H. C.

  Edwards, Enoch (Hanley)

  Hedges, A, Paget

  Brooke, Stopford

  Edwards, Frank (Radnor)

  Helme, Norval Watson

  Brunner,J.F.L.(Lancs.,Leigh)

  Elibank, Master of

  Hemmerde, Edward George

  Bryce, J. Annan

  Erskine, David C.

  Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

  The Committee divided:—Ayes, 289
  Noes, 105. (Division List No. 210.)

  Henry, Charles S.

  Money, L. G. Chiozza

  Simon, John Allsebrook

  Herbert, Colonel Ivor (Mon.,S.)

  Montgomery, H. G.

  Sinclair, Rt. Hon. John

  Herbert, T. Arnold (Wycombe)

  Morgan, G. Hay (Cornwall)

  Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie

  Higham, John Sharp

  Morrell, Philip

  Spicer, Sir Albert

  Hobart, Sir Robert

  Morse, L. L.

  Stanger, H. Y.

  Hobhouse, Charles E. H.

  Morton, Alpheus Cleophas

  Stanley,Hn.A. Lyulph (Chesh.)

  Holland, Sir William Henry

  Myer, Horatio

  Steadman, W.C.

  Holt, Richard Burning

  Napier, T. B.

  Stewart, Halley (Greenock)

  Horniman, Emslie John

  Newnes, F. (Notts, Bassetlaw)

  Strachey, Sir Edward

  Horridge, Thomas Gardner

  Newnes, Sir George (Swansea)

  Straus, B. S. (Mile End)

  Howard, Hon. Geoffrey

  Nicholson, CharlesN.(Doncaster

  Strauss, E. A. (Abingdon)

  Hudson, Walter

  Norton, Capt. Cecil William

  Sutherland, J. E.

  Hutton, Alfred Eddison

  Nussey, Thomas Willans

  Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth)

  Hyde, Clarendon

  Nuttall, Harry

  Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)

  Isaacs, Rufus Daniel

  O'Donnell, C.J. (Walworth)

  Tennant,SirEdward (Salisbury)

  Jacoby, Sir Alfred James

  Parker, James (Halifax)

  Tennant, H. J. (Berwickshire)

  Johnson, John (Gateshead)

  Partington, Oswald

  Thomas,Sir A.(Glamorgan,E.)

  Johnson, W. (Nuneaton)

  Pearce, Robert (Staffs. Leek)

  Thompson, J. W. H.(Somerset,E.

  Jones, Sir D.Brynmor(Swansea)

  Pearce, William (Limehouse)

  Tomkinson, James

  Jones, Leif (Appleby)

  Pearson, Sir W. D. (Colchester)

  Toulmin, George

  Jones,William (Carnarvonshire)

  Philipps, J. Wynford (Pembroke

  Trevelyan, Charles Philips

  Kearley, Hudson E.

  Philipps, Owen C. (Pembroke)

  Ure, Alexander

  Kekewich, Sir George

  Pickersgill, Edward Hare

  Verney, F. W.

  Kincaid-Smith, Captain

  Pirie, Duncan V.

  Walsh, Stephen

  Laidlaw, Robert

  Pollard, Dr.

  Walters, John Tudor

  Lamb.Edmund G. (Leominster)

  Price, C.E.(Edinburgh,Central)

  Walton,SirJohn L. (Leeds, S.)

  Lamb, Ernest H. (Rochester)

  Price, Robert John( Norfolk, E.)

  Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

  Lamont, Norman

  Priestley, Arthur (Grantham)

  Ward, John (Stoke upon Trent)

  Layland-Barratt, Francis

  Priestley, W. E. B.( Bradford, E.)

  Ward,W.Dudley(Southampton

  Lehmann, R. C.

  Radford, G. H.

  Wardle, George J.

  Lever, W. H. (Cheshire, Wirral)

  Rainy, A. Rolland

  Waring, Walter

  Levy, Maurice

  Raphael, Herbert H.

  Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan)

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Rea, Russell (Gloucester)

  Wason,JohnCathcart( Orkney)

  Lough, Thomas

  Rees, J. D.

  Waterlow, D. S.

  Lupton, Arnold

  Renton, Major Leslie

  Watt, Henry A.

  Luttrell, Hugh Fownes

  Richards,Thomas(W.Monm'th)

  Weir, James Galloway

  Lyell, Charles Henry

  Roberts, G. H. (Norwich)

  White, George (Norfolk)

  Lynch, H. B.

  Robertson,Sir G.Scott(Bradf'rd

  White, J. D. (Dumbartonshire)

  Macdonald,J.M.(Falkirk B'ghs

  Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside)

  White, Luke (York, E. H.)

  Mackarness, Frederic C.

  Robinson, S.

  Whitehead, Rowland

  Maclean, Donald

  Robson, Sir William Snowdon

  Whitley,John Henry (Halifax)

  Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.

  Roe, Sir Thomas

  Whittaker, Sir Thomas Palmer

  M'Crae, George

  Rogers, F. E. Newman

  Wiles, Thomas

  M'Kenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald

  Rose, Charles Day

  Williams, J. (Glamorgan)

  M'Laren, Sir C. B. (Leicester)

  Rutherford, V. H. (Brentford)

  Williams, Llewelyn(Carmarth'n

  M'Laren, H. D. (Stafford, W.)

  Samuel.Herbert L.(Cleveland)

  Williamson, A.

  M'Micking, Major G.

  Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel)

  Wills, Arthur Walters

  Maddison, Frederick

  Schwann, C. Duncan (Hyde)

  Wilson,Hon.C.H.W.(Hull,W.)

  Mallet, Charles E.

  Schwann, Sir C.E.(Manchester)

  Wilson. John (Durham, Mid)

  Manfield, Harry (Northants)

  Scott,A.H.(Ashton underLyne)

  Wilson, P. W. (St. Pancras, S.)

  Markham, Arthur Basil

  Seaverns, J. H.

  Winfrey, R.

  Marks.G.Croydon (Launceston)

  Seely, Major J. B.

  Wood, T. M'Kinnon

  Marnham, F. J.

  Shackleton, David James

  Yoxall, James Henry

  Mason, A. E. W. (Coventry)

  Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)

  Massie, J.

  Shaw, Rt, Hon. T. (Hawick, B.)

  Menzies, Walter

  Sherwell, Arthur James

  TELLERS FOP. THE AYES—Mr.

  Molteno, Percy Alport

  Shipman, Dr. John G.

  Whiteley and Mr. J. A.

  Mond, A.

  Silcock, Thomas Ball

  Pease,

  NOES.

  Anson, Sir William Reynell

  Barrie, H. T. (Londonderry, N.)

  Castlereagh, Viscount

  Anstruther-Gray, Major

  Beckett, Hon. Gervase

  Cave, George

  Arkwright, John Stanhope

  Bignold, Sir Arthur

  Cavendish,Rt.Hon.Victor C.W.

  Ashley, W. W.

  Bowles, G. Stewart

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Aubrey-Fletcher, Rt. Hn. SirH.

  Boyle, Sir Edward

  Chamberlain,Rt.Hn.J.A.(Worc.

  Balcarres, Lord

  Bridgeman, W. Clive

  Channing, Sir Francis Allston

  Balfour,Rt Hn A.J.(City Lond.)

  Bull, Sir William James

  Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry

  Banbury, Sir Frederick George

  Burdett-Coutts, W.

  Coates,E. Feetham (Lewisham)

  Banner, John S. Harmood-

  Butcher, Samuel Henry

  Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E

  Barnes, G. N.

  Carlile, E. Hildred

  Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow

  606

  607

  Courthope, G. Loyd

  Long,Col. Charles W. (Evesham

  Sloan, Thomas Henry

  Craig,CharlesCurtis( Antrim,S.)

  Lonsdale, John Brownlee

  8mith,F.E.(Liverpool,Walton)

  Craig,Captain James(Down,E.)

  Lyttelton, Rt, Hon. Alfred

  Starkey, John R.

  Craik, Sir Henry

  Macdonald, J. R.(Leicester)

  Stone, Sir Benjamin

  Dalrymple, Viscount

  Macpherson, J. T.

  Summerbell, T.

  Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

  Marks, H. H. (Kent)

  Talbot, Lord K. (Chichester)

  Faber, George Denison (York)

  Meysey-Thompson, E. C.

  Talbot,Rt.Hn.J.G.(Oxf 'dUniv.

  Faber, Capt. W. V. (Hants, W.)

  Middlemore, John Throgmorton

  Taylor. John W. (Durham)

  Fardell, Sir T. George

  Mildmay, Francis Bingham

  Thomson,W. Mitchell-( Lanark)

  Fell, Arthur

  Morpeth, Viscount

  Thorne, William

  Fletcher, J. S.

  Muntz, Sir Philip A.

  Thornton, Percy M.

  Forster, Henry William

  Nicholson, Wm. G. (Petersfield)

  Vincent, Col. Sir C. E. Howard

  Gibbs.G. A. (Bristol, West)

  O'Grady, J.

  Walker,Col. W. H. (Lancashire)

  Harrison-Broadley, H. B.

  Parker,Sir Gilbert(Gravesend)

  Walrond, Hon. Lionel

  Helmsley, Viscount

  Parkes, Ebenezer

  Wards, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid)

  Hervey,F.W.F.(BuryS.Edm'ds

  Ratcliff, Major R. F.

  Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.)

  Hill,Sir Clement (Shrewsbury)

  Rawlinson, JohnFrederick Peel

  Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

  Hills, J. W.

  Remnant, James Farquharson

  Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)

  Hope, John Deans (Fife, West)

  Richards,T.F. (Wolverhampton

  Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart

  Houston, Robert Paterson

  Roberts,S.(Sheffield,Ecclesall)

  Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

  Hunt, Rowland

  Rothschild, Hn. Lionel Walter

  Younger, George

  Kennaway, Rt.Hon.Sir.JohnH.

  Rutherford, John (Lancashire)

  Kenyon-Slaney.Rt.Hn. Col. W.

  Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool)

  King,Sir Henry Seymour (Hull)

  Salter, Arthur Clavell

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Sir

  Lea, Hugh Cecil (St.Pancras,E.)

  Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

  Alexander Acland-Hood and

  Lee, ArthurH.( Hants.,Fareham

  Seddon, J.

  Viscount Valentia.

  Lockwood,Rt.Hn.Lt,-Col. A. R.

  Sheffield,Sir BerkeleyGeorgeD.

  Where upon the CHAIRMAN left the Chair to make his Report to the House.
  Committee report Progress; to sit again To-morrow.

  MARRIED WOMEN'S PROPERTY BILL.
  Read a second time, and committed to a Standing Committee.

  INJURED ANIMALS ACT (1894) AMENDMENT BILL.
  Order for Second Reading read.
  Objection being taken,
  SIR HOWARD VINCENTappealed to hon. Members to withdraw their objection to a small and useful measure which provided that an animal which was so badly injured that it could not be moved without gross cruelty might on the certificate of a veterinary surgeon, be slaughtered.
  Bill read a second time, and committed to a Standing Committee.

  INCEST BILL.
  Read a second time, and committed to a Standing Committee.

  HOME WORK.
  Ordered, That a Select Committed be appointed to consider and report upon
  608
  the conditions of labour in trades in which home work is prevalent, and the proposals, including those for the establishment of wages boards and the licensing of work places, which have been made for the remedying of existing abuses.
  Ordered, That the Committee do consist of Twenty-one Members.
  Committee accordingly nominated of, Mr. Arkwright, Mr. Bridgeman, Sir William Bull, Mr. Boland, Mr. Brunner, Mr. Chiozza Money, Mr. Joseph Devlin, Mr. Arthur Dewar, Mr. Fell, Mr. Arthur Henderson, Mr. Ernest Lamb, Mr. Massie, Mr. Masterman, Mr. Parkes, Mr. William Redmond, Mr. Richardson, Mr. Robinson, Mr. Stuart Samuel, Mr. Sherwell, Mr. Trevelyan, and Sir Thomas Whittaker.
  Ordered, That the Committee have power to send for poisons, papers, and records.
  Ordered, That Seven be the quorum. —(Mr. Whiteley.)
  And, it being half-past Eleven of the clock, Mr. Speaker adjourned the House without Question put, pursuant to the Standing Order.
  Adjourned at half after Eleven o'clock.