Commons Sitting of 3 June 1907

Preamble
The House met at a quarter before Three of the Clock.

PRIVATE BILL BUSINESS.
PRIVATE BILLS [LORDS] (STANDING ORDERS NOT PREVIOUSLY INQUIRED INTO COMPLIED WITH).
Mr. SPEAKER laid upon the Table Report from one of the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, That, in the case of the following Bills, originating in the Lords, and referred on the First Reading thereof, the Standing Orders not previously inquired into, and which are applicable thereto, have been com-plied with, viz:—Ocean Accident and Guarantee Corporation Bill [Lords]; Heywood and Middleton Water Board Bill [Lords]; Pontypridd Urban District Council Bill [Lords]; General Accident Fire and Life Assurance Corporation, Limited, Bill [Lords]; Ashton-under-Lyne, Stalybridge, and Dukinfield (District) Waterworks Bill [Lords]; Harrison's Patent Bill [Lords]
Ordered, that the Bills be read a second time.

PRIVATE BILLS [LORDS] (STANDING ORDERS NOT PREVIOUSLY INQUIRED INTO NOT COMPLIED WITH).
Mr. SPEAKER laid upon the Table Report from one of the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, That, in the case of the following Bill, originating in the Lords, and referred on the First Reading thereof, the Standing Orders not previously inquired into, and which are applicable thereto, have not been complied with, viz: —Coventry Corporation Water Bill [Lords].
Ordered, That the Report be referred to the Select Committee on Standing Orders.

PROVISIONAL ORDER BILLS (STANDING ORDERS APPLICABLE THERETO COMPLIED WITH).
Mr. SPEAKER laid upon the Table Report from one of the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, That, in the case of the following Bills, referred on the First Reading thereof, the Standing
Orders which are applicable thereto have been complied with, viz: —Local Government (Ireland) Provisional Orders (No. 2) Bill; Local Government (Ireland) Provisional Orders (No. 3) Bill.
Ordered, That the Bills be read a second time To-morrow.
Maidstone Gas Bill—Lords Amendments considered, and agreed to.
Armagh Urban District Council Bill (King's Consent signified), —Bill read the third time, and passed.
Royal Bank of Scotland Bill [Lords]; Society of Apothecaries of London Bill [Lords]; read the third time, and passed, without Amendment.
Southport, Birkdale, and West Lancashire Water Board Bill [Lords]. Read a second time, and committed.
Local Government Provisional Orders (No. 5) Bill. Read the third time, and passed.
Ladybank Sewerage Drainage and Water Provisional Order. Bill to confirm a Provisional Order under The Burgh Police (Scotland) Act, 1892, relating to Ladybank Sewerage Drainage and Water, presented by Mr. Sinclair.
Ordered, That Standing Order 193Abe suspended, and the Bill be now road the first time. —(The Chairman of Ways and Means.)
Ladybank Sewerage Drainage and Water Provisional Order Bill. "To confirm a Provisional Order under The Burgh Police (Scotland) Act, 1892, relating to Ladybank Sewerage Drainage and Water," accordingly read the first time; referred to the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, and to be printed. [Bill 218.]
London County Council (Electric Supply) Bill. Ordered, That the Memorandum by the Commissioners of Works on Electric Power and Supply Bills [Command Paper No. 2930, of Session 1906] be referred to the Select Committee on the Bill. —(Mr. Harcourt.)

PETITIONS.
  EDUCATION (SPECIAL RELIGIOUS INSTRUCTION) BILL.
  Petition from Formby, against; to lie upon the Table.
MARRIAGE WITH A DECEASED WIFE'S SISTER BILL.
Petition from Congleton, against; to lie upon the Table.
RETURNS, REPORTS, ETC.
  NAVIGATION AND SHIPPING.
  Copy presented, of Annual Statement of Navigation and Shipping of the United Kingdom for the year 1906 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
  EDUCATION (SCOTLAND).
  Copy presented, of Memorandum on the Study of Languages [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
  UNIVERSITIES (SCOTLAND) ACT, 1889 (ORDINANCE).
  Copy presented, of University Court Ordinance No. XX. (Edinburgh, No. 8) (Regulations for the Degree of Bachelor of Pharmacy) [by Act]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 171.]
  SHOP HOURS ACT, 1904.
  Copy presented, of Order made by the Secretary for Scotland providing for the Early Closing of certain Shops in the parish of Cathcart (county of Renfrew) [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.
  COLONIAL REPORTS (ANNUAL).
  Copies presented, of Colonial Reports Nos. 520 (Seychelles, Annual Report for 1906) and 531 (Hong Kong, Annual Report for 1906) [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
  FACTORY INSPECTORS.
  Return presented, relative thereto [Address 22nd March: Mr. Ramsay Macdonald]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 172.]

  MILITARY PRISONS.
  Copy presented, of Report on the Discipline and Management of Military

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  Prisons in 1906[by Command]; to lie upon the Table.

  SUPERANNUATION ACT, 1884.
  Copy presented, of Treasury Minute, dated 27th May, 1907, declaring that Edward Cable, 3rd Class Labourer, Royal Army Clothing Department, War Office, was appointed without a Civil Service Certificate through inadvertence on the part of the Head of his Department [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.
  POST OFFICE (FOREIGN AND COLONIAL PARCEL POST).
  Copy presented, of the Foreign and Colonial Parcel Post Amendment (No. 6) Warrant 1907, dated 15th May, 1907, [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.
  IRISH LAND COMMISSION.
  Copy presented, of Return of Advances made under The Irish Land Act, 190'5, during the period from 1st November, 1903, to 31st December, 1905. Vol. 1, Part III. [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
  INTERMEDIATE EDUCATION (IRELAND).
  Copy presented, of Rule made by the Intermediate Education Board for Ireland appointing the places at which Examinations for 1907 shall be held [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.
  INTERMEDIATE EDUCATION (IRELAND).
  Copy presented, of Rule made by the Intermediate Board for Ireland determining the number of Centre Superintendents to conduct the Examinations in the year 1907 [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.
  EMIGRATION AND IMMIGRATION.
  Copy ordered, "of Statistical Tables relating to Emigration and Immigration from and into the United Kingdom in the year 1906, and Report to the Board of Trade thereon." — (Mr. Lloyd-George.)
QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS CIRCULATED WITH THE VOTES.

  Teachers' Houses.
  Mr. WHITEHEAD: To ask the President of the Board of
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  Education whether he is aware of the difficulty in arranging for teachers' houses in connection with provided schools which is caused by the fact that at least 50 per cent. of the cost of such premises is chargeable on the parish, although the whole of the teachers' salary is charged on the county fund; whether he is aware that this produces difference of treatment as between parishes where the schools arc respectively provided and non-provided, owing to the fact that deductions from salaries on account of rent are not paid to the parish in the former case, even when the teacher's house is the property of the parish, but in the case of non-provided schools are paid to the trustees of the school; whether this difference can be remedied without legislation; and, if not, whether he can see his way to introduce legislation giving power to county authorities to erect, hire, or purchase dwelling-houses for teachers and apportion the cost as between the parish and the county in such way as may be just.
  (Answered by Mr. McKenna.) It is no doubt true that the cost of providing or renting a teacher's house for a council school must, to the extent of at least one-half, be charged on the parish or parishes served by the school. The cost of renting a teacher's house for a voluntary school is paid out of the county fund, and in both cases any reduction in the teacher's salary due to his occupation of a house rent free is credited to the county. This arrangement could only be altered by legislation, but I may point out that if the county council consider that the parish should not be charged with so high a proportion of the cost of the teacher's house, it would be open to them, in allocating, within the limits imposed by the statute, the cost of provision of council schools between the parishes and the county, to charge on the parishes a smaller proportion when a teacher's house is included than they would charge where a teacher's house is not included.

  Veterinary Examination of Cows in Scotland.
  Mr. WATT: To ask the Secretary for Scotland if he will

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  state, for the years 1900 to 1906 inclusive, the number of cows examined by veterinary surgeons under Article 3 of the Dairies, Cowsheds, and Milkshops Order, 1899, the number of cows certified under the said Article to be affected with tuberculosis of the udder, and the manner

  Year

  1900

  1901

  1902

  1903

  1904

  1905

  Number of cows examined

  20,076

  22,604

  26,382

  29,870

  29,305

  38,309

  Number of cows affected with tuberculosis of the udder

  54

  46

  40

  40

  37

  43

  The figures, however, are only approximate, and do not represent the exact number of cows certified as affected by tuberculosis of the udder, which I am unable to obtain. I have no information as to how the cows certified were disposed of.

  Foreign Trawlers in the Moray Firth
  Mr. WEIR: To ask the Secretary for Scotland if he will state the number of trawlers flying a foreign flag observed fishing in the Moray Firth during the year ending the 31st December, 1906, and the nationality of the respective vessels.
  (Answered by Mr. Sinclair.) In 1906 thirty different foreign trawlers (twenty-nine Norwegian and one Belgian) were observed on 185 occasions.

  Ventilating Arrangements of Battleships.
  Mr. NIELD: To ask the Secretary to the Admiralty whether complaints have been received of the ventilation in some of the British warships, more particularly with regard to the magazines and lower decks; whether the repairs and refits provided for in the Estimates for 1906–7 and 1907–8 include alterations in ventilating arrangements; and, if so, what are the names of the ships affected.
  in which the cows so certified were disposed of.
  (Answered by Mr. Sinclair.) The figures compiled from the Returns made to the Local Government Board from 1900 to 1905 are as follows—
  (Answered by Mr. Edmund Robertson). There has been no general complaint of the ventilation of the magazines and lower decks of British warships, but from time to tine reports have been made by officers who think the temperatures of particular parts of certain ships too high. This has not always been found to be due to defective ventilation, but sometimes to the fact that the existing means of ventilation have not been fully utilised. The Estimates for 1906–7 and 1907–8 provided for carrying out certain modifications to the ventilating arrangements of the following ships, where experience had shown alterations to be necessary. 1906–7: "Exmouth," "Glory," "Albion," "Swiftsure," "Triumph," and "Drake." 1907–8: "Canopus," "Goliath," "Glory," "Hawke," "Swiftsure." "Triumph," "Lancaster," "Suffolk," "Duncan," and "Exmouth."

  Payment of Teachers in Monmouthshire Provided and Non-provided Schools.
  Mr. D. A. THOMAS: To ask the President of the Board of Education whether he is aware that the Monmouthshire Education Authority has established uniform rates of salaries for teachers in provided schools within the county, but declines to pay teachers in non-provided schools at the same rates; and whether he has ever advised any

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  such discrimination between the two classes of schools.
  (Answered by Mr. McKenna.) It is not one of the duties of the Board of Education to advise local education authorities as to the amount of salary they should pay to their teachers.
  Mr. D. A. THOMAS: To ask the President of the Board of Education if he can say how many teachers employed at non-provided schools in Swansea have recently tendered their resignation; whether he is aware that they have taken this step at the request of the executive of the National Union of Teachers, and because for similar work they are paid lower salaries than their colleagues in the provided schools under the same authority; and whether, in the event of the resignations taking effect, and the schools being closed, the Education Board has any powers which it can exercise to compel the local authority to abandon the discrimination it now makes in the salaries of provided and non-provided schoolteachers.
  (Answered by Mr. McKenna.) I cannot say how many teachers in voluntary schools in Swansea have resigned or what reasons have led them to take this step. The last paragraph of my hon. friend's Question, raises hypothetical questions which will require consideration in the event of the contingency to which he refers arising.

  Persons possessing Real Estate dying Intestate.
  MR. HERBERT: To ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer what was the number of persons in England and Wales who died intestate possessed of real estate; and what was the value of the real estate which passed upon such in testacy in each of the last ten years.
  (Answered by Mr. Asquith.) The records of the Estate Duty Office do not distinguish between testate and intestate estates, while on the other hand the records of the principal probate registry do not contain statistics of the value of real estate. I fear, therefore, that the information for which my hon. friend asks could only be obtained by a detailed
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  examination and collation of the records of the two departments, which would involve the expenditure of a very large amount of time and labour.

  Docks capable of holding "Lord Nelson" Class of Battleships.
  Mr. BELLAIRS: To ask the Secretary to the Admiralty, with reference to the thirteen Government docks and six Colonial and private docks in the British Empire that will take ships of the "Dreadnought" class, whether the Admiralty will give the corresponding figures for the docks that will take the "Lord Nelson" class, which are the immediate predecessors of the "Dreadnought."
  (Answered by Mr. Edmund Robertson.) In addition to the thirteen Government docks and six Colonial and private docks in the British Empire which will take ships of the "Dreadnought" class, there are five other Government docks, two private docks in the United Kingdom, and two Colonial docks, which will take the "Lord Nelson" class. There are two other docks in the United Kingdom which might take either a "Dreadnought" or a "Lord Nelson," but the Admiralty have not sufficient information at the present time to say definitely; inquiries are being made.

  Seniority of Transferred Postal Officials.
  Mr. RICHARDSON: To ask the Postmaster-General if he is aware that a telegraphist has been transferred from Hanley to Nottingham for departmental purposes, and that he carries his seniority with him, which acts to the disadvantage of the Nottingham staff; whether other transferred officers at Nottingham have been placed at the bottom of the class; and whether he will consider the advisability of giving monetary compensation to transferred officers, and thus avoid injustice to the staff generally.
  (Answered by Mr. Sydney Buxton.) It is usual in cases of this kind to allow an officer transferred for departmental reasons to carry his seniority; and this course was followed in the case of the officer referred to. Officers transferred at their own request, are required to go to the

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  foot of their new class; and this condition is definitely brought under their notice before the application for transfer is acceded to.

  Appointments to Board of Trade Messengerships
  SIR SAMUEL SCOTT: To ask the President of the Board of Trade how many appointments have been made to permanent messengerships at the Board of Trade since January, 1906; and what was the occupation of the individual men prior to appointment.
  (Answered by Mr. Lloyd-George.) Nine permanent messengers have been appointed at the Board of Trade and its subordinate departments since January, 1906, viz., two ex-soldiers, one unestablished messenger, two ex-boy messengers, one postman, one waiter, one shop assistant, and one messenger clerk.

  Woolwich. Arsenal Committee of Inquiry.
  Mr. PIKE PEASE: To ask the Secretary of State for War if the Committee appointed to inquire into the relations between Woolwich Arsenal and private manufacturing firms have yet reported; and whether it is proposed to publish the Report.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Haldane.) I presume that the hon. Member refers to the Report of the Committee on this subject appointed by the Treasury. It is not proposed at present to publish this Report, but I believe that the question of whether it may not become expedient to do so is to be considered later on.

  Territorial Army—County Associations and the Pay of Officers.
  COLONEL KENYON-SLANEY: To ask the Secretary of State for War whether the county associations to be set up under the Territorial Forces Bill will be entitled or permitted to control or vary in any way the emoluments of officers and men of the Territorial Forces.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Haldane.) The reply is in the negative.

  British Warships in Colonial Waters.
  MR. MITCHELL-THOMSON: To ask the Secretary to
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  the Admiralty what progress is being made with the arrangements for the provisions of vessels to show the flag in Colonial waters.
  (Answered by Mr. Edmund Robertson.) I have nothing to add to my reply to a previous Question from the hon. Gentleman on 26th February last, † except that since that date the "Scylla" has been sent out to the West Indies, and the "Monmouth" has been ordered to Vancouver to embark Prince Fushimi for Japan.

  The Case of Mr. Edalji.
  SIR GILBERT PARKER: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department if the Government, in releasing Mr. Edalji from confinement, decided that Mr. Edalji was wrongfully imprisoned, should not have been imprisoned at all, and was not guilty of the crime for which he was convicted.
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department if the Government have decided that a free pardon is properly applied to a person who has been wrongfully or mistakenly convicted and imprisoned when he is released from an unjust confinement.
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether there is any precedent for granting compensation to a person who has been wrongfully convicted and imprisoned, and who has been granted a so-called free pardon; and whether the Government will, in future, grant compensation to any person who has been wrongfully imprisoned, and will discontinue the use of the words free pardon in releasing an innocent person from prison.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Gladstone.) I will answer this and the next two Questions together. Mr. Edalji was released in October last at the end of three years because it was considered that the sentence originally passed upon him was unduly severe. This was my predecessor's decision in August, 1905, which I carried out in October, 1906.
  † See (4) Debates, clxix., 1417–8

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  In the absence of a right of appeal to a higher court the grant of a free pardon, whether the term is considered appropriate or not, is the only means by which a person can be relieved of the consequences of a conviction, whether wrongful or otherwise. Compensation has, in certain exceptional cases, been granted to innocent persons who have suffered imprisonment, but the question of payment of compensation must depend upon the circumstances of each individual case. The reasons which have led me to advise the grant of a free pardon without compensation to Mr. Edalji are shown in the Papers which have been laid before Parliament, and I have nothing to add to what is contained in them.

  Distraints for Non-payment of Education Rates
  Mr. CLOUGHW.R., Skipton): To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many passive resisters were summoned for the non-payment of a sectarian rate; how many of them suffered distraint; and how many of them suffered imprisonment for conscience sake during 1904, 1905, 1906, and the first four months of 1907.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Gladstone.) I fear it is impossible to give the information my hon. friend asks for. As I said in answer to a Question on 8th May, there is no legal distinction between a passive resister and an ordinary rate defaulter.

  Publication of Correspondence with Railway Companies respecting Combines.
  SIR J. RANDLES: To ask the President of the Board of Trade when the correspondence with railway companies respecting combines will be laid upon the Table.
  (Answered by Mr. Lloyd-George). The correspondence in question was laid upon the Table on the 25th March, and has been circulated as Command Paper 3420.

  Importation of Nitro-Cotton
  Mr. LAMBTON: To ask the President of the Board of Trade
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  if a prohibition has been issued, and on what date, against the importation of nitro-cotton containing mercury; and whether a firm would be bound to terminate its contract on the ground of fraud if chloride of mercury had been added so as to affect the recognised heat test by which the purity of the materials is ascertained.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Gladstone.) I beg to answer this Question on behalf of my right hon. friend. There is no prohibition of the importation into this country of collodion cotton (i.e., nitro-cotton), whether containing mercury or not, when wet, because in that condition it is not regarded as an explosive. When dry, on the other hand, it cannot be imported, and even if imported could not be stored, without a licence; and no such licence would allow the presence of mercury. It is illegal to use collodion cotton containing mercury in the manufacture of explosives in this country, and a warning to this effect has recently been given through official channels to the manufacturers of a foreign state. It is not within my province to give an opinion on the legal point raised in the second part of the Question.

  Workmen's Fares on the Metropolitan Railway.
  MR. BOWERMAN: To ask the President of the Board of Trade when his Department proposes to institute an inquiry into the question of workmen's fares upon the Metropolitan and District Railways, in agreement with the requests received from public and other bodies.
  (Answered by Mr. Lloyd-George.) Complaints were received from the London County Council and other bodies with regard to the workmen's fares on the Metropolitan District Railway, and the matter has, on the application of the railway company, been referred to the Railway and Canal Commission as provided by the Cheap Trains Act, 1883. The matter having been so referred, the duty of inquiry falls upon the Railway and Canal Commission.

  Re-afforestation Scheme
  SIR J. RANDLES: To ask the Secretary to the Treasury, as representing

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  the Commissioners of Woods and Forests, when a statement may be expected as to the scheme of re-afforestation under consideration of the Commissioners of Woods and Forests.
  (Answered by Mr. Runciman.) The Commissioners of Woods and Forests have under consideration the purchase of an estate for the purposes of afforestation; but I am unable to make

  Van Dwellers and Inhabited House or Carriage Licence Duty.
  MR. WHITEHEAD: To ask the Secretary to the Treasury whether vans used as dwellings are subject to any duty corresponding to Inhabited House Duty or the licence duty on carriages or, like motor cars, are required to be registered and to bear a reference number; and, if not, whether His Majesty's Government, with a view to more effective control over dwellers in vans by the sanitary, police, and education authorities, will introduce legislation to provide for such registration, bearing of a reference number and payment of a licence duty.
  (Answered by Mr. Runciman.) I am informed that vans used as dwellings by the gipsy class are not chargeable with licence duty. They are trade carts, and hawkers' licences are taken. Caravans used as dwellings for pleasure, or other than trade purposes, are carriages within the meaning of the Act and chargeable with licence duty.

  Customs Watchers.
  Mr. WHITEHEAD: To ask the Secretary to the Treasury whether the number of customs watchers in the upper section has now been restored to one-fourth of the total number employed.
  (Answered by Mr. Runciman.) The number of watchers on the upper section is now one-fourth of the total number employed at Gravesend, Tilbury, Queen borough, and the out ports.

  Sales of Agricultural Lands.
  MR. LAMBTON: To ask the hon. Member for South Somerset, as representing the President of the Board of Agriculture, whether the Board of Agriculture
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  has any records of agricultural land sales; and, if so, whether he will state the acreage sold publicly and privately during the last five years.
  (Answered by Sir Edward Strachey.) We have no official information on this subject. The hon. Member might, however, find it useful to refer to the Land and House Property Year Book, which is published annually by the Estates Gazette, and contains particulars of the sales of land by auction in the metropolis and at many of the chief provincial sales.

  Importation of Argentine Cattle.
  MR. BOWERMAN: To ask the hon. Member for South Somerset, as representing the President of the Board of Agriculture, if he is aware that the prohibition to export live animals from certain Argentine ports has been removed, and that Argentine cattle and sheep will be again landed at Antwerp for slaughter, that the hides and skins in a raw state, as well as the meat, will be shipped to English markets, and that the vessels employed in this trade will frequently proceed direct to British ports to discharge the remainder of their cargo or to reload; and if he can state what steps will be taken to prevent the introduction into this country of cattle diseases through the importation of the hides and skins and through the landing of persons and cargo from off the vessels on to British soil.
  (Answered by Sir Edward Strachey.) We have been informed of the removal of the prohibition against the exportation of live animals from Argentina. The propriety of taking further measures to prevent the introduction of foot-and-mouth disease by indirect agencies into this country from Antwerp has frequently been considered; but we are satisfied that the regulations of the Belgian Government with regard to the disinfection of the vessels and the sanitary precautions taken by them with regard to diseased or suspected cargoes afford a sufficient safeguard.

  Imprisonment of Mr. Timothy Flanagan, of Corofin.
  MR. WILLIAM REDMOND: To ask Mr. Attorney-General for

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  Ireland if he will state the circumstances under which Mr. Timothy Flanagan, of Corofin, county Clare, has been lodged in Limerick Prison; and whether he will inquire as to whether Mr. Flanagan's release can be ordered.
  (Answered by Mr. Cherry.) Mr. Timothy Flanagan was prosecuted at Corofin petty sessions for having acted as a member of the district council there, whilst disqualified, and fined £12 and costs. The fine and costs were not paid, and on failure of distress he was committed to Limerick prison for four months in default. The prosecution was at the instance of a private individual, and was not directed by me or in any way under my control. A conditional order for a writ of certiorari to quash the conviction has been granted by the King's Bench Division of the High Court, and the matter will come before the Court for final adjudication in a short time. The Lord-Lieutenant has been advised that, pending the result of these proceedings, there is no power to discharge Mr. Flanagan.

  Uninhabited Houses in England and Wales.
  MR. GEORGE FABER: To ask the President of the Local Government Board whether the aggregate number of empty houses in the cities and towns of this country is on the increase; and, if so, can he state the figures and to what cause or causes he attributes the increase.
  (Answered by Mr. John Burns.) I am not able to give the information desired by the hon. Member. I may, however, draw his attention to the table on page 193 of the General Report on the Census of 1901, which gives some particulars as to the number of uninhabited houses in England and Wales at each census since 1801, and the proportion it bears to the number of houses which were inhabited. The observations, however, on page 36 of the Report should be read in connection with this table.

  Grants to Central Unemployed Body.
  MR. T. F. RICHARDS: To ask the President of the Local Government Board whether he
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  has received an application from the Central Unemployed Body for a further grant to enable that body to continue employing those women who are at present unable to find employment; and, if so, what was the nature of his reply.
  (Answered by Mr. John Bums.) The last payment to the Central (Unemployed) Body for this purpose was made on the 28th March. I have not since received any application from them on the subject.

  Refund of Income Tax to Farmer-Owners under Schedule B
  Colonel R. WILLIAMS: To ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer why owners farming their own land who have to pay income-tax under Schedules A and B can yet, when no profit is made, only get a refund under Schedule B
  (Answered by Mr. Asquith.) An owner farming his own land and making no profit whatever, not even anything towards rent of the land farmed, can obtain relief from the tax assessed under Schedule A, in virtue of Section 23 of The Customs and Inland Revenue Act, 1890.

  Income-Tax Assessments.
  MR. H. H. MARKS: To ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer what is the approximate amount which he estimates the Exchequer will derive from the new provision with reference to income-tax requiring all employers, whether private persons or companies, to make extended returns giving, not only the names, but the salaries of their employees.
  (Answered by Mr. Asquith.) No, Sir. I have no data on which to base an estimate of the amount of taxable income which escapes assessment through the imperfections of the present regulations.

  Increased Revenue from New Scale of Death Duties.
  MR. H. H. MARKS: To ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer what would have been the approximate gain to the Exchequer, up to 30th March, 1907, if the

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  increased scale of death duties which he has now imposed had been imposed in April, 1906.
  (Answered by Mr. Asquith.) Last year was, of course, a particularly favourable year for the death duties, especially as regards large estates, and I calculate that the additional revenue from the increased rates, if they had been in force in respect of all estates upon which duty was paid in that year, would have been approximately£1,500,000. The proceeds in an average full year would be considerably less than that sum.

  Indian Salt Tax.
  MR. HAROLD COX: To ask the Secretary of State for India whether his attention has been called to a recent case in Bombay where a mill operative was fined ten rupees, practically the equivalent of a month's wages, for scraping up a small quantity of natural salt from the sea-shore, amounting to about half an ounce in weight; whether such penalties are necessary to protect the Government revenue; and, if so, whether he will press upon the Government of India the importance of rigidly limiting expenditure so that the salt tax may be finally repealed at the earliest possible date.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Morley.) I have seen mention of the case in the Bombay newspapers. I will ask the Government of Bombay to report particulars, and to say whether, in the circumstances, the fine imposed was excessive. The accused might have purchased for one-hundredth part of a penny the quantity of salt which he is alleged to have made illicitly. The salt duty has already, as my hon. friend knows, been reduced by three successive steps, at a cost to the revenues of over£3,000,000.

  Sir James McKay and the Imperial Conference.
  MR. REMNANT: To ask the Secretary of State for India whether Sir James McKay attended the Imperial Conference, as representing the Government of India, at the request of that Government; and, if not, in what capacity did he attend and speak.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Morley.) I should be glad if the hon. Member would kindly refer to the full Answer that I gave to a similar Question on the 8th May.†

  The Punjab Colonisation Bill
  MR. SMEATON: To ask the Secretary of State for India whether the Punjab Colonisation Bill imposed more onerous conditions as to tenure and rent on the existing colonists than they had previously been accustomed to; whether it was on those grounds that the Viceroy refused his assent to the Bill; and, if not, what were the grounds on which the Viceroy refused his assent.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Morley.) The Bill did not deal in any way with the rents of existing or future colonists. Its primary object was to repair omissions in the past procedure for making grants of land, and to prescribe a simpler procedure for future grants. It also laid down the conditions subject to which grants in future would be made, and in certain respects it applied these to existing grants. The Viceroy refused his assent to the Bill on grounds of public policy, as it had been strongly opposed for its retrospective character in the Punjab Legislative Council, and its provisions were evidently misunderstood and had created genuine alarm in the colonies.

  Punjab Revenues.
  MR. SMEATON: To ask the Secretary of State for India whether the Punjab is a deficit province, that is to say a province whose revenues are insufficient to meet its total civil and military expenditure; and what is the total amount of the deficit which has to be met from Imperial funds.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Morley.) The revenue received in the Punjab has in recent years exceeded by at least one-half the civil expenditure in the province. The portion of the cost of the Army in India which is spent in the Punjab properly forms part of, and is merged in, the general military expenditure of the Government of India.
  † See Debates, clxxiv., 210.

  Trial of the Three Barristers Arrested at Rawal Pindi.
  MR. C.,T. O'DONNELL: To ask the Secretary of State for India whether he can state the cause of the delay in bringing the three barristers arrested at Rawal Pindi on 2nd May to trial on 30th May; and whether, during these four weeks, they were kept in prison, although bail to the amount of£20,000 was offered.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Morley.) I am not aware why the persons referred to were not brought to trial until 30th May. Application for bail was made to the chief court of the Punjab, but was refused. As my lion, friend knows, release of a prisoner on bail pending trial is a matter entirely within the discretion of the court.
  MR. C. J. O'DONNELL: To ask the Secretary of State for India whether he has received from the Government in India any explanation of the cause of delay in arresting three barristers, on the 2nd of May at Rawal Pindi, for speaking, on the 21st April, at a public meeting in support of resolutions, to be forwarded to the Lieutenant-Governor, asking for redress in connection with land revenue and irrigation rates; whether there was any disturbance in Rawal Pindi between the 21st April and the 2nd May; and whether the only disorder occurred immediately after the arrests.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Morley.) The three pleaders were not arrested for speaking at the meeting held on 21st April, but for complicity in the riots that occurred on 2nd May. I am not aware that there were any disturbances between 21st April and 2nd May, and the riots on the latter date preceded, and did not follow, the arrests, and there has been no disorder since.

  Irish Evicted Tenants—Case of Mr. Florence Doherty, of Beaufort, County Kerry.
  MR. BOLAND: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that the Estates Commissioners have in-
  270
  vestigated the application for reinstatement by Mr. Florence Doherty, an evicted tenant on the John Mahony estate, Beaufort, county Kerry; and can he state what decision has been arrived at.
  (Answered by Mr. Birrell.) The Estates Commissioners have investigated Mr. Doherty's application for reinstatement. The holding from which he was evicted has been purchased under the Land Acts by the tenant in occupation. The Commissioners, however, will further consider Mr. Doherty's case in the event of their purchasing untenanted land in the neighbourhood.

  Rathkeale Rural District Council—Allegations of Corruption.
  MR. MOORE: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland if the Irish Local Government Board have received a memorial, signed by forty-one leading ratepayers in the Rathkeale rural district, county Limerick, protesting against the jobbery and corruption of the rural council, and praying for their dissolution and the appointment of paid officers to administer their duties for them; if he is aware that at its meeting in April one of the Nationalist members of the council stated it was corrupt, and another that it was a bad precedent for Home Rule or Devolution; if the ratepayers in this district have already suffered a proved loss of£1,200; and what action the Local Government Board propose to take in the matter.
  (Answered by Mr. Birrell.) I refer to my Answer to the Question on this subject put by the hon. Member for North Londonderry on Thursday last.†The Local Government Board have no power to dissolve a rural district council.

  Irish Evicted Tenants—Case of Charles Talbot.
  MR. BOLAND: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether, in view of the correspondence which has taken place, the Estates Commissioners will reconsider their decision in the case of Charles Talbot,
  † See Debates, clxxv., 93.

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  an evicted tenant, and arrange for his reinstatement in his original holding, or, in the alternative, will see that he is given some compensation.
  (Answered by Mr. Birrell.)The Estates Commissioners inform me that they have given the most careful consideration to this case, and have decided that it is not one which calls for their interference or in which any compensation could be paid.

  United Irish League Meeting in South Galway
  SIR F. BANBURY: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he will take into consideration the report of the ordinary meeting of the South Galway executive of the United Irish League held on 12th May; and whether he will take proceedings against those responsible for the speeches made against certain persons named at that meeting.
  (Answered by Mr. Birrell.) The meeting in question was held within doors, and the police have no evidence as to the speeches which may have been made at it.

  Alleged Intimidation by the South Roscommon Branch of the United Irish League.
  SIR GEORGE FARDELL: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether his attention has been called to the order of the South Roscommon executive of the United Irish League requesting another branch to take notice of the conduct of a certain grazier; and whether he will say what action he proposes to take for ensuring to the said grazier the peaceful possession of his land.
  (Answered by Mr. Birrell.) I am informed that a local newspaper contained a report to the effect mentioned in the Question. The meeting at which this order is alleged to have been given was held within doors, and the police have no evidence that any such proceedings took place. The police are taking all possible measures for the protection of the grazier referred to.

  Intimidation at Killasonagh, County Longford.
  LORD J. JOICEY-CECIL: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that a man has been violently deterred from placing an animal upon a grazing farm at Killasonagh, county Longford; and whether he will give assurances that this man shall be protected in the exercise of his legal rights.
  (Answered by Mr. Birrell.) The police authorities inform me that, so far as they have been able to ascertain, there is no foundation for the statement that a man has been deterred from placing an animal upon a grazing farm at Killasonagh.

  Unlawful Assembly at Ballintubber.
  LORD J. JOICEY-CECIL: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland if he will state how many of the persons who attacked Mr. Payne's farm, near Ballintubber, on the 10th May were employees of the Congested Districts Board and of the Estates Commissioners; and whether he proposes to take action in the matter.
  (Answered by Mr. Birrell.) I am informed that about seventy-five labourers who were temporarily in the employment of the Congested Districts Board, and about thirty employed by the Estates Commissioners, were members of the crowd some of whom drove the cattle off Mr. Payne's farm. This fact has already been brought to the notice of the Departments mentioned. Twelve persons are being prosecuted for unlawful assembly on the occasion, and the case is sub judice.

  Roscommon District Council and Irish-made Goods.
  COLONEL HARRISON-BROADLEY: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether his attention has been drawn to a resolution of the Roscommon district council to the effect that in all advertisements for

  273
  supplies Irish-made goods are to be ordered, where such can be obtained, and whether he proposes to take any steps to secure that the ratepayers of the district shall have the benefit of the cheapest market irrespective of the place of origin of the articles desired.
  (Answered by Mr. Birrell.) The Local Government Board have no record that any such resolution was passed by the rural district council. The rural district council are not obliged by law to accept the lowest or any tender for goods to be supplied by them, but they must be prepared to satisfy the auditor that in accepting a tender which was not the lowest they acted in the best interest of the ratepayers.

  Intimidation in County Sligo.
  MR. FELL: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether his attention has been called to the action of the Geevagh, Moylough, Temple boy, Grange, and Highwood branches of the United Irish League, in the county of Sligo, which passed resolutions on Sunday, 19th May, for the purpose of intimidating certain persons named in the resolutions into a course of action agreeable to the League; and whether he will take the necessary action to protect the persons so referred to.
  (Answered by Mr. Birrell.) The police authorities inform me that resolutions purporting to have been passed by the branches named have appeared in a local newspaper. The meetings at which these resolutions are stated to have been passed were held in private, and the police have no evidence of the proceedings which may have taken place at these meetings. Full protection will be afforded to any persons who may need it.

  Disturbance at Abbeyfeale.
  MR. HUNT: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he has received a police report concerning an attack made upon a shop attendant
  274
  named Kane at Abbeyfeale, county Limerick, on Monday, 13th May, by Laurence and John Nolan; whether he will inform the House why one of these men dangerously wounded Kane in the jaw with a knife; and whether the assault is connected with the fact that William Forde, Kane's employer, holds an evicted farm at Knockanadive, near Brosna, seeing that the defendants spent the afternoon outside Forde's shop at Abbeyfeale taking notes of the persons dealing with him and of the names on the carts calling for goods at his establishment.
  (Answered by Mr. Birrell.) Laurence Nolan has been returned for trial at quarter sessions for the offence of assaulting Kane, but no charge in connection with the matter has been preferred against John Nolan. It would be quite irregular to enter into the details of the case while criminal proceedings are pending.

  Working of the Labourers Act
  MR. WILLIAM REDMOND: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland if he has received any complaints as to the tardy working of the Labourers Act; and whether anything can be done to hasten the erection of cottages for the labourers.
  (Answered by Mr. Birrell.) The Local Government Board have received some complaints from labourers to the effect stated in this Question, but, so far, the Board cannot charge the councils with undue delay, especially having regard to the enormous numbers of applications which they have before them, over 50,000 already. It should be remembered that each application for a cottage must be considered on its merits, and all the sites have to be chosen and inspected before the preparation of the schemes can be put in hand. It is obvious that schemes of such magnitude require time and care, and there will be far more, delay and disappointment in the long run if the statutory preliminaries are not closely observed, and if the schemes are prepared in a hurried or perfunctory manner. The hon. Member, however,

  275
  may rest assured that every possible assistance will be given by the Local Government Board to the councils, and that no effort will be spared to expedite the working of the Act.

  Reduction of Wages of Labourers at Gun Wharf, Portsmouth.
  MR. BRAMSDON: To ask the Secretary of State for War whether he is aware that in connection with the recent rise of Is. per week to the wages of the labourers in the Army Ordnance Department there has at the same time been a reduction from 6d. to 4d. per day upon the wages of labourers at the gun wharf at Portsmouth who have been doing special work, and that therefore the increase in those cases of Is. per week has been practically nullified; and whether he will restore the wages for special work to the same amount as they were before.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Haldane.) The wages paid to the men doing the work in question remain unchanged, and are considered adequate, notwithstanding that an increase has been made in the minimum rate paid to other men for different work.

  Feeding Arrangements of the Army.
  MR. SEAVERNS: To ask the Secretary of State for War if, in view of the effort being made to improve the preparation of food in the mercantile marine, he will consider the possibility of effecting some improvement in the preparation of food for the men of His Majesty's land forces quartered in barracks or cantonments; and, with the object of securing greater variety of food than now exists, will he consider the possibility of effecting improvements by letting the catering to outside contractors bound to employ soldiers in the preparation of the foods supplied.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Haldane.) The improvements made in late years in preparation of the soldiers' food have been very great, and have had the best results. Both general officer commanding and officers commanding units take
  276
  keen interest in the matter. To let the catering to outside contractors would result in relieving officers and men of the responsibility and interest they now take in arranging for a palatable dietary. Further, contractors could not accompany an army in the field for this purpose, and the food of the soldier would consequently suffer at a time when it is imperative that it should be of the best.

  Appointments to Colonial Office Messengerships.
  SIR SAMUEL SCOTT: To ask the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies how many appointments have been made to permanent messengerships at the Colonial Office since January, 1906, and what was the occupation of the individual men prior to appointment.
  (Answered by Mr. Churchill.) One such appointment has been made. The person appointed was a temporary pensioner messenger in the employ of the Colonial Office, who was formerly a quartermaster-sergeant in the Army Service Corps.

  Assessment of Scottish Railways.
  MR. YOUNGER: To ask the Secretary for Scotland whether he can state the system upon which the railway assessor values the Scottish railways for rating purposes; and whether he will give the total valuations for the last available year of the Caledonian, North British, Glasgow and South Western, Highland, and Great North of Scotland railway companies, stating in each case what portion of such valuation is placed upon the running lines.
  (Answered by Mr. Sinclair.) In reply to the first part of the hon. Member's Question I may refer him to the Report of the Royal Commission on Local Taxation (pages20–22 of Cd. 1067 of 1902) for the system of valuation. With reference to the second paragraph of the Question, the following valuations for 190620–7, based upon a three years' aver. age and allocated between running lines and stations, etc., have been furnished to me: 20—

  Running lines.

  Stations, depots, &

  Total.

  £

  £

  £

  Caledonian

  333,376

  282,430

  615,806

  North British

  455,714

  205,521

  661,235

  Glasgow and South Western

  169,212

  103,920

  273,132

  Highland

  24,055

  23,990

  48,045

  Great North of Scotland

  57,943

  28,366

  83,309

  Gratuity to John Malone, Late of Office of Works, Dublin.
  MR. CLANCY: To ask the Secretary to the Treasury whether he is aware that a man named John Malone, who had been sixty years in the employment of the Board of Works, Dublin, was recently retired on a gratuity of£39, whereas according to the Board's regulations he was entitled to a sum of£60, and that another employee of the Board was granted only a similar gratuity, although entitled to£50; will he explain why the Board's regulations were violated in those two cases; and whether, if they have been violated, due reparation will be made to the two men in question.
  (Answered by Mr. Runciman.) The Board of Works have no regulations of the kind referred to, but it has been the invariable practice of the Treasury in its administration of Section 4 of the Superannuation Act of 1887 to limit the award of a gratuity to a maximum of one year's pay, and this rule could not be departed from in the present instances.

  Purchase of Guaranteed Land Stock through Post Office.
  MR. FETHERSTONHAUGH: To ask the Postmaster General, whether he is aware that on the Dublin Stock Exchange Guaranteed Land Stock is readily and daily bought and sold; if not so aware, will he consult any leading Dublin stockbroker; and will he, as soon as possible, make the necessary regulations, under Section 2 of the Purchase of Land Act, 1891, to
  278
  enable purchasers to pay in Guaranteed Land Stock through the Post Office as intended by Parliament.
  (Answered by Mr. Runciman.) I can say no more at present than that the Treasury is in communication with the other departments concerned.

  Pay of Mr. T. M'Nab, Postman, of Tarbert.
  MR. JAMES O'CONNOR: To ask the Postmaster General whether he is aware that Mr. T. M'Nab, a postman at Tarbert, N.B., makes five attendances and works an average of nearly six hours daily; that Mr. M'Nab only receives 16s. weekly, with no prospect of advancement; and that he has been refused the usual uniform due to men who work more than five hours daily; and whether he will take steps to place Mr. M'Nab on the established staff.
  (Answered by Mr. Sydney Buxton.) I am making inquiry on this subject, and will acquaint the hon. Member with the result.

  Employment of Ex-Telegraph Messengers on Postmen's Work
  MR. JAMES O'CONNOR: To ask the Postmaster-General whether he is aware that at Towcester and at other places ex-telegraph messengers are employed on postmen's work for more than four hours daily, and, although thus complying with the conditions necessary for appointment as assistant postmen, are refused permission to sit for examination; and whether he will take steps to remedy this.
  (Answered by Mr. Sydney Buxton.) Inquiry on this subject is in progress. The result shall be communicated to the hon. Member.

  Sick Leave of Mr. Abbott, of Redlynch, Salisbury
  MR. JAMES O'CONNOR: To ask the Postmaster-General whether he is aware that Mr. R. P. Abbott, of Redlynch, Salisbury, was certified after illness as being fit for duty on 15th December of last year, but was informed that he must not resume duty until instructions had been received from headquarters; that he was again examined on 27th February of this year, and again certified fit for duty, but still was not allowed to resume until 15th March; that, owing to what would appear to be a mistake on the part of the officials, Mr. Abbott exceeded the six months' sick leave allowed by the regulations and was therefore deprived of a portion of his pay; and whether this money will be refunded to him, as he was not sick nor responsible for his absence.
  (Answered by Mr. Sydney Buxton.) I will inquire into the case of Mr. Abbott, of Redlynch, Salisbury, and will communicate the result to the hon. Member.

  Liverpool and Auckland—Distances by Alternative Routes
  MR. HAROLD COX: To ask the President of the Board of Trade whether he can state the distances between Liverpool and Auckland by the following routes: via Halifax N.S., and Vancouver, via Montreal and Vancouver, via New York and San Francisco, via the Tehuantepec Railway, detailing in each case the distance across the Atlantic by steamship, the distance across the American Continent by railway, and the distance across the Pacific by steamship.
  (Answered by Mr. Lloyd-George.) The Board of Trade have no special information on the subject, but they understand that the shortest distances by sea, between the several ports, are approximately as follows: —

  Miles.

  From Liverpool:

  To Montreal (via Belle Isle)

  2,765

  To Montreal (via Cape Race)

  2,974

  To Halifax

  2,438

  „New York

  2,978

  „Coatzacoalcos

  4,777

  And from:

  Vancouver City to AuckLand

  6,177

  San Francisco

  5,675

  Salina Cruz

  5,980

  They are also informed that the distances by rail are approximately:

  Statute Miles.

  From Halifax to Vancouver City

  3,662

  From Montreal to Vancouver City

  2,906

  From New York to San Francisco

  3,270

  From Coatzacoalcos to Salina Cruz

  200

  Removal of Shingle from Sidmouth Beach.
  MR. SHACKLETON: To ask the President of the Board of Trade whether an officer from Trinity House called at Sidmouth early in July last and gave orders to anyone that the removal of shingle from Sidmouth beach must stop; if so, to whom were these orders given, and why, if so given, was shingle allowed to be taken as before, to the prejudice of the owners and skippers of registered fishing boats and their fishermen working with them; if not now officially stopped, will the Board of Trade say it will be stopped entirely; and whether the Board is aware that, if the removal of shingle is not stopped, the fishermen of this district will be ruined, as their boats will be destroyed by the sea beach being too low for them to lie on with reasonable safety.
  (Answered by Mr. Lloyd-George.) The removal of beach material is not a matter coming within the jurisdiction of the Trinity House, and I have ascertained from that corporation that they have no knowledge of any orders having been

  281
  given in their name regarding such removal at Sidmouth. The most effective means at the disposal of the Board of Trade for stopping the removal of shingle or ballast is the issue of an order under Section 14 of The Harbours Act, 1814, prohibiting such removal. No application for the issue of such an order in respect of Sidmouth has been received from those interested. Should an application be made the Board will be prepared to cause local inquiry to be made as to whether the circumstances warrant the issue of an order.

  Appointments to Board of Education i Messengerships.
  SIR SAMUEL SCOTT: To ask the Secretary to the Board of Education how many appointments have been made to permanent messengerships at the Board of Education since January, 1906, and what was the occupation of the individual men prior to appointment.
  (Answered by Mr. McKenna.) Since January, 1906, seven appointments to permanent messengerships have been made. Of these, four had been boy messengers in the service of the Board of Education, one had been in the Army and is a reservist, one had been a college servant at Oxford, and one a man servant. During the same period three permanent "attendants" have been appointed. Of the former, one was a boy messenger in the service of the Board, one had been in the Army, and afterwards a valet, and the third had been in the Army. A doorkeeper has also been appointed who was in the Metropolitan Police and employed for a considerable number of years in the House of Commons.

  Promotion of Excise Officers to Chief Officers of Customs
  MR. FETHERSTONHAUGH: To ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer whether promotion of Excise officers to the posts of chief officers of Customs is regulated by seniority in the service or by other considerations; and if in any recent promotions men of long service and good character have been passed over for men much junior in the service, without any cause being assigned to those disappointed of promotion.
  (Answered by Mr. Asquith.) I presume that the hon. Member refers to examining officers of Customs and not to "Excise officers." The appointment of examining officers to the post of chief officer is not governed by seniority, but by consideration of the qualification and general fitness of the officer for the duties and position. Regard is had also to age, for the reasons stated by my lion, friend the Financial Secretary to the Treasury in his Answer to the Question of the hon. Member for the Newton Division on 27th February last, † and this necessarily excludes many officers of long service and good character. It is unusual, and I do not think it would be desirable, to inform senior officers who have not been selected of the reasons why they were not considered suitable for the position.

  Destruction of the Rameshvaram Temple
  MR. REES: To ask the Secretary of State for India whether the Dharmakarta of the, Rameshvaram temple proposes to destroy that edifice and to build up another in its place; and, if so, whether the Madras Government will take any action, direct or indirect, in order to prevent such destruction.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Morley.) I understand that the manager of the temple has been entrusted by his coreligionists with subscriptions to a very large amount for the repair and restoration of the temple, and that the project which has been approved of provides for the renovation of the wall of the outermost court and the complete rebuilding of the two inner courts. The Madras Government has tendered advice to the manager, but it is not in a position to interfere in the matter against the wishes of the temple authorities.

  Revision of Land Settlement in Rawal Pindi District.
  MR. C. J. O'DONNELL: To ask the Secretary of State for India whether, seeing that the land revenue of the Rawal Pindi district of the Punjab, which was increased from£27,500 in 1865 to£36,400 in 1885, has been further
  † See (4) Debates, clxx., 47.

  283
  increased by a new settlement made in 1904 to£45,000, the tax on many of the holdings near the town being doubled, he will appoint a small committee of revenue officials from other provinces to inquire into the allegations of excessive enhancement, as was done in Bombay in 1877 after serious rioting by the tenant farmers.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Morley.) The Deccan Riots Commission, to which my hon. friend apparently refers, was appointed by the Bombay Government in 1876 on evidence of the existence of the serious indebtedness of the agricultural classes in certain districts to the money-lenders, and with a view to remedial legislation. This does not constitute a precedent for the action proposed; but, if the Government of India or the local Government consider that an inquiry is called for, they will no doubt propose a Commission. I understand that they are satisfied that the revision of the land settlement is justified by extensions of cultivation and rise in rents and prices since the last settlement, and that there has been no agitation among the agricultural classes of the district.

  Irish Labourers Cottages—Application of Peter Flanagan
  MR. CLANCY: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether an application by Peter Flanagan, of Lucan, county Dublin, for a cottage under the Labourers Act was rejected by the Celbridge Rural District Council or by the Local Government Board; and, if so, will he explain why.
  (Answered by Mr. Birrell.) The Local Government Board have not yet received information as to this case. If, however, it be the fact that Flanagan's representation was rejected by the rural district council, he can attend at the local inquiry which is to be held and lay his case before the inspector.

  The Mullaranny Belmullet Railway.
  Dr. AMBROSE: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is yet in a position to state that the proposed rail-
  284
  way from Mullaranny, county Mayo, to Belmullet will be commenced in the near future; has a consultation taken place between the engineer to the Midland Great Western Railway of Ireland and the engineer to the Board of Works as to the probable cost of such a railway; and, if so, what was the estimate they arrived at.
  (Answered by Mr. Birrell.) I am not in a position to make the statement suggested in the first part of the Question. The consultation between the two engineers referred to has not yet taken place, but has been arranged for an early date.

  People under Police Protection at Kilnaboy, County Clare.
  MR. WILLIAM REDMOND: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland if he can state how many people are under police protection in the parish of Kilnaboy, county Clare; and whether such precautions are necessary in view of the perfectly peaceful condition of the locality.
  (Answered by Mr. Birrell.)Twelve persons are under police protection in the parish of Kilnaboy. The protection is considered necessary by the police authorities, who are responsible for taking measures to preserve the peace, and who inform me that the locality is not at present in a peaceable condition.

  Cost of Extra Police in County Galway.
  MR. JOHN ROCHE: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland if he will state, with regard to the claim now being made upon the county council of Galway for the cost of extra police, the several dates on which extra police were employed in the county, and the number of police at each station on these dates, also the ordinary quota for each such station and for the county; and whether any police, and, if so, how many, were drafted into Galway from other counties for service on the dates in question.
  (Answered by Mr. Birrell.) The claim referred to in the Question is in respect of the cost of extra police sent to the county of Galway during the half-year ending 30th September, 1906. During

  285
  that period extra men were employed from 21st May to 6th June, from 23rd to 25th June, and from 5th July to 19th August. There is no fixed quota for each station, but only for each riding of the county. The total vacancies in the fixed quota of the entire county in the months of May, June, July and August, when extra men were employed, were six, eleven, two and 0 respectively. The extra police employed on the occasions mentioned consisted in all of 124 head and other constables and one district inspector from other counties, and 143 head and other constables and three district inspectors from the reserve force.

  Housing Bill—Date of Introduction.
  MR. STEADMAN: To ask the Prime Minister when he proposes to introduce the Housing Bill.
  (Answered, by Sir H. Campbell-Bannerman.) I must refer my hon. friend to my statement in the House of Commons as to the course of business.

QUESTIONS IN THE HOUSE.

  British Flag in Colonial Waters.
  SIR GILBERT PARKER: On behalf of the hon. Member for North West Lanarkshire, I beg to ask the Secretary to the Admiralty what progress is being made with the arrangements for the provision of vessels to show the flag in Colonial waters.
  THE SECRETARY TO THE ADMIRALTY (Mr. EDMUND ROBERTSON, Dundee): I have nothing to add to my reply to a previous Question from the hon. Gentleman on 26th February last, † except that since that date the "Scylla" has been sent out to the West Indies, and the "Monmouth" has been ordered to Vancouver to embark Prince Fushimi for Japan.

  H.M.S. "Dreadnought."
  Mr. FELL: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Admiralty if the condition of the rudders of the "Dreadnought" was only discovered when that ship was placed in dry dock;
  † See (4) Debates, clxix., 1417–8
  286
  and, as that ship is to be stationed on the East Coast, what dry dock accommodation will be available there for her and for her sister ships which are now under construction.
  MR. EDMUND ROBERTSON: The reply to the first of the Question is in the affirmative. As regards the second part, I must refer the hon. Member to the full statement made by the First Lord in another place on the 1st May, ‡and by the Civil Lord in the course of the debate on Vote 10 on 25th April. §
  MR. ARTHUR LEE: Can the right hon. Gentleman say if there is a private dock on the East Coast capable of accommodating this vessel?
  MR. ROBERTSON: I will inquire.

  Rosyth.
  MAJOR ANSTRUTHER-GRAY (St. Andrews Burghs): I beg to ask the Secretary to the Admiralty whether he can now state if the Report as to the ground on which it is proposed to place the foundations of the new dock at Rosyth is satisfactory or not.
  MR. EDMUND ROBERTSON: The foundations are reported to be satisfactory.
  MAJOR ANSTRUTHER-GRAY: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Admiralty how many men are now employed on the work in connection with the naval base at Rosyth.
  MR. EDMUND ROBERTSON: Eight workmen are now employed by the Admiralty and seven by the contractor carrying out work for the Admiralty.

  Swiss Army Training.
  MR. ASHLEY: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War what is the minimum training on enlistment and annually required in the Swiss Army and in the proposed Territorial Army, respectively, for men of the following branches: infantry, cavalry, and artillery.
  ‡ See (4) Debates, clxxiii., 825 et seq.
  § See (4) Debates, clxxiii., 294 et seq
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WAR (Mr. HALDANE, Haddington): Under the new system which will pro

  Recruits Course.

  The Elite

  The Landwehr.

  Days.

  Course.

  No. of Days.

  Total Days.

  Course.

  Days.

  Total Days.

  Cavalry

  90

  8

  11

  88

  Nil.

  Artillery

  75

  7

  11

  77

  1

  11

  11

  Infantry

  65

  7

  11

  77

  1

  11

  11

  The recruits' course takes place in the 20th year. In the Elite the period of service is thirteen years for the artillery and infantry, and eleven years for the cavalry; in the Landwehr twelve years for the artillery, and infantry, and fourteen years for the cavalry; in the Landsturm six years. It will be observed that the training courses are not annual. The periods of minimum training on enlistment for the various arms of the Territorial Force are at present under consideration; and the training to be carried out annually in addition to annual camp have not yet been definitely fixed.
  MR. ASHLEY: The right hon. Gentleman has not answered my Question about the Territorial Army.
  MR. HALDANE: I can only refer the hon. Member to what is specified in the Bill.
  SIR GILBERT PARKER: Do these figures represent an increase or a decrease in the number of days training in the Swiss Army?
  MR. HALDANE: I think an increase.

  The Special Contingent.
  MR. ASHLEY: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether any estimate has been made of the proportion of persons serving in the special contingent who will be under twenty years of age at any given time; and, if so, what is the estimated proportion.
  MR. HALDANE: NO estimate has been made, but the probability is that
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  bably come into force in July, the periods of training in the Swiss Army will be as follows: —
  the numbers will resemble in proportion the Militia ages given in Table 12, page 125, General Annual Return. Only experience will show what numbers will pass on to the Regular Army and what remain as Reservists

  Volunteer Field Batteries.
  MR. ASHLEY: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether, before inviting the House to sanction the expenditure of public money upon the creation of Volunteer field batteries, he will definitely state whether it is still his intention to reduce the personnel of the Royal Horse and Field Artillery by 3,800, or by any other number, in order that the House may know whether it is asked to vote money for batteries as a supplement to, or in substitution for, the Regular Horse and Field Artillery.
  MR. HALDANE: There is no question of using Volunteer Artillery in place of Regular Artillery.

  40th Brigade Royal Field Artillery.
  MR. MITCHELL-THOMSON: To ask the Secretary of State for War whether he is aware that on 7th March the 40th Brigade Royal Field Artillery received orders to proceed to Glasgow on 23rd May, and that on 11th May these orders were cancelled; whether, in view of the inconvenience and expense caused by the change to individuals in the Brigade, they will receive any compensation; and whether he will endeavour to secure that in future orders involving expenditure by individuals in taking houses and making

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  other necessary arrangements shall not be cancelled on such short notice.
  MR. HALDANE: The cancellation of the orders for the move of the 40th Brigade, as for the move of the 39th Brigade, took place under circumstances which — as I informed the hon. Member for the Southern Division of Hants — I regard as somewhat exceptional. I will therefore consider the grant of some assistance where individuals have necessarily incurred out-of-pocket expenditure to no purpose.

  Bayonets and Swords.
  MAJOR ANSTRUTHER-GRAY: To ask the Secretary of State for War whether, in view of the importance of our own troops being armed with the best type of bayonet and sword and the danger of being found unprepared, and the fact that it is now eighteen months since he reported that these matters were under consideration, he will take steps to accelerate the considerations of the experts to whom this duty has been entrusted.
  MR. HALDANE: Experimental bayonets have been issued for trial by the troops and are still under trial. Experimental swords of the pattern recommended by the Committee which considered the subject will shortly be issued to the troops for trial.

  Great Yarmouth Volunteer Camp.
  MR. FELL: To ask the Secretary of State for War whether, contrary to the practice of recent years, no Volunteers will go into camp at Great Yarmouth this summer; and, if so, what is the reason for making this change.
  MR. HALDANE: The arrangements for Volunteer camps are in the hands of the General Officer Commanding-in-Chief, with whose discretion the Army Council does not propose to interfere.

  Woolwich Arsenal Discharges.
  MR. FELL: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War how many men were discharged from Woolwich Arsenal during the week ending 25th May; and how many he proposes to discharge during each of the following three weeks.
  MR. HALDANE: Sixty men were discharged in accordance with the arrangement to proceed with the reduction at the rate of sixty per week, and in addition eleven men who would have had to leave later on were discharged on the 25th May at their own request. Sixty per week will be discharged during each of the following three weeks.
  SIR J. HANDLES: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War if any men have been discharged from Woolwich during the present year who have been in the service of the State for a period of ten years and upwards.
  MR. HALDANE: The Answer is in the affirmative.
  MAJOR ANSTRUTHER-GRAY:I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War how many men it is intended to discharge from Woolwich Arsenal, and at what rate per week.
  MR. HALDANE: The number of men to be discharged from Woolwich Arsenal cannot as yet be fixed. The rate of discharges per week is sixty; this number does not include any voluntary resignations.
  SIR J. RANDLES: Does that include any men who have been employed more than ten years.
  MR. HALDANE: Yes. How many more will be discharged I cannot say, as our object is to find a minimum below which we do not want to let the establishment sink, and a maximum above which we do not wish to let it rise. We are getting towards that minimum now; but I do not like to give figures, for fear of raising hopes and creating disappointment. But the whole thing has been worked out.
  MR. J. WARDasked how much longer it would be before the minimum was decided on, and the system of weekly discharges discontinued.
  MR. HALDANE: It is not expedient that I should make any definite statement until I can give absolute figures. But we are getting in sight of the requisite information.
  COLONEL LOCK WOOD: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether boys between the ages of fourteen and sixteen are now being engaged at Woolwich Arsenal at 7s. a week, while skilled men are being discharged from work.
  MR. HALDANE: Yes, Sir. It is necessary to engage boys to fill vacancies for boys' work for which skilled men are unsuitable, and for which the latter have never been employed.

  Artillery Practice for Territorial Force.
  COLONEL WALKER: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War what provision has been made for the practice of the field batteries of the proposed Territorial Army; what ranges have been secured; and what sum has been set aside for the purpose of securing such ranges.
  MR. HALDANE: This Question is premature. Inquiries as regards ranges are in progress, but it is too soon at the present stage to make definite arrangements.
  COLONEL WALKER: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether any calculation has been made as to the amount of ammunition to be expended by the field batteries of the proposed Territorial Army; and what number of rounds per battery will be expended.
  MR. HALDANE: The question of allotment of ammunition for annual practice to these batteries is now being considered.

  Tidworth Barrack Stables.
  *CAPTAIN FABER: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether he will now state the name of the contractor who has been given the contract for erecting stables at Tidworth for the Scots Greys Regiment.
  MR. HALDANE: The contract has not yet been placed.

  Kynoch's Cordite Contract.
  MR. BELLAIRS: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether a large amount of cordite contracted for with Kynoch, Limited, has
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  been rejected; whether the evidence of reports of the Explosives Committee, which sat continuously since its first appointment in 1900, justifies the addition of mercuric chloride to service explosives, or affords any reason for the failure of Kynoch, Limited, to disclose this practice to the War Office and Admiralty; and whether the addition of mercuric chloride enables the explosive to defeat the only official test known as the Abel heat test.
  MR. HALDANE: The reply to the first part of the Question is in the affirmative. The reply to the second part of the Question is in the negative. As regards the last part of the Question the addition of mercuric chloride vitiates the Abel heat test which is used for testing supplies.

  Territorial Army — Army Commissions for Officers.
  MR. ARTHUR LEE: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether the number of commissions in the Regular Army, which are now open to be competed for by officers of the Militia and Yeomanry, will be increased sufficiently to afford an approximately equal opportunity of joining the Regular Forces to officers of the new Territorial Army.
  MR. HALDANE: The number of commissions in the Regular Army which can be offered to officers of the Territorial Forces must necessarily depend on the requirements of the service from time to time. It is not possible to give any definite Answer to this Question at the present stage.

  Military Bands.
  MR. GEORGE ROBERTS: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether any military bands are now supplied by agents for private engagements which bring them into unfair competition with civil bands; and whether, if this is so, he will take steps to prevent this practice.
  MR. HALDANE: The orders issued by the Army Council enjoin that military bands are not to seek for or take up engagements through the medium of musical or other agents or through the Press, and that no engagement should be

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  accepted on terms which are less than those which would in the same circumstances be offered to other than military bands. I am not aware of any occurrences of the nature mentioned in the Question, and I shall be glad if my hon. friend will furnish me with any such cases.

  Crimean War — Bounties.
  LORD BALCARRES: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War what bounties were paid for recruits in the last six months of the Crimean War; what was the number of Militiamen serving abroad at the close of the war; and what was the number of foreigners enlisted for service in the British Army in the German Legion and other corps.
  MR. HALDANE: From the 22nd January, 1855, to the 16th January, 1856, the bounty was £10 for cavalry and £ 8 for infantry; from the 17th January, 1856, it was fixed at £ 5 and a free kit for both cavalry and infantry. The number of Militiamen serving abroad at the end of the war was approximately 5,500 rank and file. As regards the foreigners enlisted, Army Estimates for 1855 £ 6 show that provision was taken for 14,950 officers, non-commissioned officers, and men of the foreign legions, but the exact number cannot be easily traced.

  Cost of Field Artillery Battery.
  MR. ASHLEY: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War what is the cost of a battery of the field artillery which has recently been supplied to the Regular; Army.
  MR. HALDANE: The average cost of a Q.F. 18 pr. battery, i.e., guns, carriages, wagons, limbers, spare components and 1,000 rounds of ammunition per gun, is £ 27,000.
  MR. ASHLEY: And how many batteries are there?
  MR. HALDANE: I should not like to say from memory, but the information is easily obtainable.
  MR. CROOKS: Are not many of them very old?
  MR. HALDANE: No; we are keeping them up to the latest pattern.

  Foreign Service Rules.
  MR. BOWLES: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether the grant to a soldier, having loss than six years' continuous service abroad, of ninety days' furlough, on condition that he defrays the whole cost of his passage to and from England, is held by the War Office to break the continuity of his foreign service; if so, how long this view has been held by the War Office; and whether, in order to prevent the great hardships which must result from a misunderstanding of this point, he will cause the results of accepting such a special furlough to be clearly explained in future to every soldier applying for it by his commanding officer before the furlough is granted.
  MR. HALDANE: As far as is known in this Department, no such case has occurred. But should a soldier defray the whole cost of his passage to and from England, the furlough would not cause a break in the continuity of his service abroad £ provided that, in the case of India, the Indian authorities raise no objection.

  Rifle Ranges for the Territorial Force.
  MR. PIKE PEASE: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War if it is intended that the cost of providing and maintaining rifle ranges for the Territorial Force shall be exclusively defrayed by moneys provided by Parliament.
  MR. HALDANE: It is intended that the money provided by Parliament shall cover all the necessary expenses of the Territorial Army, including necessary expenditure on rifle ranges.

  Promotions from the Ranks.
  MR. J. WARD: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether he is in a position to say if it is intended to secure commissioned appointments in the new Territorial Army for suitable non-commissioned officers who have passed through the ranks; whether it is proposed to make or issue any special orders or regulations as to the conditions under which such appointments will be offered; and, if so, could he indicate the lines upon which such orders or regulations will proceed.
  MR. HALDANE: The granting of commissions to suitable non-commissioned officers is now a matter of common, occurrence in many volunteer corps and the practice will certainly be continued and encouraged under the new organisation. My hon. friend may rest assured that the non-commissioned ranks are far too valuable a source to be neglected in the effort to make up the deficient provision of officers for the Territorial Force. It is unnecessary to go into the question of issuing special orders or regulations on the subject at present.
  MR. J. WARD: Are no more special facilities to be given to the private in the Territorial Army to obtain a commission than have been given in the past?Are not the arrangements existing to be altered in any way?
  MR. PIRIE: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the percentage of commissions given to men in the ranks has decidedly decreased of late?
  MR. HALDANE: The number of commissions granted is affected by the fact that a large number of the men do not go on. It is impossible to make the profession of officer lucrative. But as to the notion that we are discouraging men to rise from the ranks to the position of officer, it is not true. In the Territorial Army we have large deficiencies of officers; and, to fill up the deficiencies, we are tempted to take officers from the ranks. There are a large number of officers in the Volunteers now who have passed through the ranks, and we hope that there will be as many in future.
  MR. J. WARD: Is it intended to increase the facilities in future?
  MR. HALDANE: We are increasing the outfit allowance so as to diminish the cost to the men who become officers.
  MR. PIRIE: Can the right hon. Gentleman explain the decrease in the percentage in the last two years?
  MR. HALDANE: During the war a great number of commissions were given all round, and a large number of men have resigned those commissions since. But there is no diminution and no desire
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  to encourage the diminution of the number of commissions given to men in the ranks. On the contrary, we are short of officers in the Regulars as in the Territorial Army, and it is not likely that we should do anything to close a source of supply.
  MR. PIRIE: That is begging the question.
  MR. PIRIE: In view of the fact that this matter cannot be discussed on the Territorial Forces Bill will the right hon. Gentleman persuade the Government to give us another opportunity?
  MR. HALDANE: I hope it will be discussed to-day.
  MR. PIRIE: May I ask £
  *MR. SPEAKER: Order, order! Notice must be given of further Questions.

  Territorial Army Finance.
  MR. McCRAE: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War if he can state what proportion of the total estimated expenditure of £ 3,514,000 for the now Territorial Army will be subject to the audit and control of the accounting officers.
  MR. HALDANE: A little less than half the total will be accounted for in detail as direct War Department expenditure by the accounting officer. As regards the remainder, all payments to the associations will be subject to the audit and control of that officer.
  MR. McCRAE: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War if the proposed grant in aid of £ 75 per company, after deducting association expenditure, will be allocated pro rata to each battalion, or whether county associations will have power to differentiate the amounts to be expended by each battalion under this and other heads of expenditure.
  MR. HALDANE: The £ 75 is, of course, an estimate, but, whatever the figure for the establishment grant may be, there is no doubt that discretion will be left to the associations as to the method of allotment, as the needs pf corps will vary.

  Territorial Army Walking-Out Dress.
  MR. MCCRAE: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War if the proposed walking-out dress for the new Territorial Army will be of a uniform pattern for the whole force, or will conform to that of the territorial regiments of the line.
  MR. HALDANE: I am not at present in a position to make a statement on this point.

  Limerick Barracks.
  CAPTAIN CRAIG: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War if he has received the Report upon the condition of the Limerick barracks, and what proposals he has made with a view to their redecoration and repair.
  MR. HALDANE: The Report has been received and the necessary repairs have been carried out.

  Soldiers' Song Book.
  CAPTAIN CRAIG: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War if the compilation of a book of songs for soldiers has now been completed.
  MR. HALDANE: The reply is in the negative.

  Irish Militia and Yeomanry.
  CAPTAIN CRAIG: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War when he will be in a position to give detailed information on the intentions of the Government respecting the future employment of Irish Militia officers, the disposal of Irish Militia battalions of artillery, and the status of the North of Ireland and the South of Ireland Imperial Yeomanry.
  MR. HALDANE: I hope before long to be in a position to give the hon. and gallant Member the detailed information which he requires.

  Indian Army.
  MR. ASHLEY: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether, in view of the fact that the Indian Army is unprovided with horse and field artillery (other than mountain batteries), it is contemplated, in the event of war, the Indian Army should take the field without horse or field artillery; and, if not; what is the number of regular
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  batteries which will be required, and from what source they will be provided.
  THE UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR INDIA (Mr. CHARLES HOBHOUSE, Bristol, E.): The hon. Member has been misinformed. In addition to mountain batteries and heavy batteries there are now in India eleven batteries of horse artillery with five ammunition columns and forty-five batteries of field artillery with eight ammunition columns.

  Colonial Conference Report.
  MR. FELL: I beg to ask the Undersecretary of State for the Colonies when the full Report of the proceedings at the Colonial Conference will be published.
  THE UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE COLONIES (Mr. CHURCHILL, Manchester, N.W.): To-morrow, Sir.

  Cable Communication in the West Indies
  MR. MITCHELL-THOMSON: I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies when the Report of the Departmental Committee on cable communication in the West Indies may be expected.
  MR. CHURCHILL: The Committee has already presented two Reports, but they are of a confidential character. The Committee is still sitting.

  British Forces in the Transvaal.
  MR. HAROLD COX: I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether the Government of the Transvaal has accepted the proposal of the Commandant of the Transvaal Volunteers for the reduction of the personnel of the Volunteers from 6,800 to 5,000, with a consequent reduction in the Estimates from £ 202,273 to £ 118,565; and whether it is the intention of His Majesty's Government to make a corresponding reduction in the strength of His Majesty's forces stationed in the Transvaal, so that the burden now upon the taxpayers of the United Kingdom for the maintenance of the Transvaal garrison may be reduced.
  MR. CHURCHILL: I understand-that certain reductions of expenditure On the Volunteers were contemplated by the late Government in the Transvaal, and,

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  are being effected by the new Ministry. No detailed information has yet been received by the Colonial Office upon the subject, but it is believed that the efficiency of those forces will not be in any degree impaired, and that they will remain of adequate strength. It is not proposed at present to reduce the numbers of the Imperial troops in South Africa. The ultimate withdrawal of that garrison is, of course, the natural and regular consequence of the extension of responsible self-governing institutions, and will be in full accordance with the established colonial policy of this country; but, in view of the many elements of difficulty which the South African situation still presents, immediate action of this kind would be premature. General Botha has also expressed, on behalf of his Government, a desire that the Imperial forces in the Transvaal shall be maintained at proper strength, and has asked that ample notice should be given of any large reductions in order that the white population may not find themselves suddenly left without sufficient means of defence.

  Dinuzulu.
  MR. J. RAMSAY MACDONALD: I beg to ask the Undersecretary of State for the Colonies whether the interviews which Dinuzulu is having with the Governor of Natal are of the nature of examination into his conduct during the late rebellion; whether the Governor of Natal has received the sanction of His Majesty's Government for carrying on this examination; and whether he will report its result to the Government.
  MR. CHURCHILL: The Governor as Paramount Chief possesses large powers under the Code of Native Law, and in the exercise of his authority would be justified in putting any questions which he might consider necessary. Dinuzulu himself applied to see the Governor who will report by mail to the Secretary of State, and pending the receipt of his despatch I cannot say exactly what occurred.
  *MR. G. GREENWOOD: Did Dinuzulu attend these interviews as a free agent, and was he warned beforehand that any statement he might make would be taken down
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  in writing and might be used against him?
  MR. CHURCHILL: I should imagine that in asking to see the Governor it was that his desire to come to a definite understanding.

  New Hebrides Convention.
  SIR GILBERT PARKER: I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies if under Article 33 of the New Hebrides Convention, women and children, natives of the New Hebrides, may be indentured and sent to New Caledonia; if so, is the nature of their employment clearly defined at the time of engagement; and whether the British Commissioner has any direct responsibility in the recruiting of such women and children for New Caledonia, or any power of revision of the conditions under which they are recruited and employed.
  MR. CHURCHILL: The French Government remain under the Convention, as heretofore, solely and entirely responsible for recruiting in the New Hebrides for service in New Caledonia. The New Hebrides are islands which have never been annexed by any Power; the natives are not British subjects or French citizens. Consequently no Power has had any right to interfere with the recruiting operations of other persons than its own nationals. The French Government have, therefore, been solely responsible for the recruiting for New Caledonia (which has gone on for years past) exactly as His Majesty's Government have been solely responsible for recruiting for Fiji. This position could not, of course, be altered, even if it were considered desirable, without the consent of the French Government, which had and has equal rights in the New Hebrides with His Majesty's Government. It remains unaltered under the recent Convention. Licences to recruit for New Caledonia will be issued by the French representatives; the operations of the recruiters will be supervised by French officials; and when the labourer arrives in New Caledonia he will, of course, be subject to French law. This is the system which has been in force for years; and, from what I have said, it will be gathered that His Majesty's Government had and have no responsibility for its

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  working nor any power to assume such responsibility if they desired it, any more than the French Government have any responsibility for or control over the British recruiting for Fiji. The Answer to the specific Questions of the hon. Member are therefore as follows; to the first in the affirmative, but I understand that the French Government contemplate prohibiting the recruiting of women and children for service in New Caledonia, unless accompanying the head of the family; to the second, that it is a matter for the French Government; to the third and fourth, in the negative.
  SIR GILBERT PARKER: Then am I to gather that other countries besides France and England will be permitted to recruit natives for any territories they may think desirable?
  MR. CHURCHILL: That point is not raised by the Question, and I should like to have notice before answering it.

  Orange River Colony Constitution.
  MR. LONSDALE: I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he can state when the new constitution for the Orange River Colony will be published.
  MR. CHURCHILL: It is hoped to publish the Orange River Colony Constitution in the Colony as well as in this country on 10th June.

  Condemned Natives in Natal
  MR. BYLES: I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies if he can say when the capital sentence passed on seven natives in Natal for the murder of a white man during the late rebellion will be carried out; whether communications have passed on the subject between the Colonial Office and the Governor of Natal; and if there is any probability that the Governor will use his power of pardon in the case of these prisoners or any of them.
  MR. CHURCHILL: No, Sir; but the Secretary of State desires me to say that he is confident that the Governor will exercise the prerogative of mercy in any case in which he can properly do so.

  Native Rebellion in Natal.
  MR. BYLES: I beg to ask the Undersecretary of State for the Colonies if the native rebellion in Natal is entirely at an end; does complete tranquility prevail in the Colony; and will the Secretary of State confer with the Governor upon the danger which may arise from a fresh series of native executions for events which occurred during the rebellion.
  MR. CHURCHILL: The rebellion is at an end and martial law has been withdrawn. If the latter part of the Question relates to the murderers of Mr. Veal I must refer to my reply to a Question by my hon. friend on this case last Monday, †

  Sir Matthew Nathan.
  MR. BYLES: I beg to ask the Undersecretary of State for the Colonies when will Sir Matthew Nathan take up his new duties as Governor of Natal.
  MR. CHURCHILL: Sir Matthew Nathan will leave this country about the end of July; the exact date is not yet settled.

  All-British Mail Route to Far East.
  MR. HAROLD COX: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether, in connection with the Colonial Conference, any proposal was made to abandon the present mail route to India, Ceylon, and Australia, viâ Brindisi, in order to establish an all-British route viâ the Cape of Good Hope; and whether such a proposal, if made, would have the support of His Majesty's Ministers.
  MR. CHURCHILL: No such proposal was made. I am not able to say whether it would, if made, have the support of His Majesty's Ministers.

  Peking-Kalgan Railway.
  MR. REES: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he can give the House any information regarding the progress of the Peking-Kalgan Railway.
  THE FINANCIAL SECRETARY TO THE TREASURY (Mr. RUNCIMAN, Dewsbury; for Sir EDWARD GREY): A regular service of trains exists between
  † See (4) Debates, clxxiv., 1314–5

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  Fengtai (on the Peking-Tientsin line) and Nank'on, a distance of over thirty-four miles, out of a total of 125 miles to Kalgan. It is expected that the line will be completed towards the end of 1909.

  United States Tariffs.
  MR. LONSDALE: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether communications have been opened up with the United States Government with the view of securing for British manufacturers and exporters tariff concessions similar to those granted to Germany under the agreement recently concluded; and whether it is the view of His Majesty's Government that these concessions come within the provisions of the most-favoured-nation clause.
  MR. RUNCIMAN: The only tariff concessions of which British exports to the United States do not get the benefit under most-favoured-nation treatment are those specified in Section 3 of the Dingley Tariff Act. Negotiations have been entered into with the United States Government with a view to securing on some or all of these articles the reductions given to other nations. The Answer to the last part of this Question is in the affirmative. But, as has been previously stated, the United States Government has contended hitherto that such concessions, being granted in return for a consideration, do not come within the scope of the most-favoured-nation clause.

  Swatow Riots.
  MR. LONSDALE: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he has received any information respecting the riots near Swatow, in China; and what steps have been taken to protect British interests in the disturbed districts.
  MR. RUNCIMAN: My right hon. friend has no information on the subject except what has been published in the Press, and he is confident that His Majesty's Minister in China will report to him at once on the matter if it is serious. From official information received, the disturbances at Lienchow previously reported appear to have been unimportant.

  British Interests in Siam.
  MR. PIKE PEASE: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs when he will be in a position to make a statement as to the effect upon British interests of the treaty recently concluded between France and Siam.
  MR. RUNCIMAN: Under the terms of the treaty the three Siamese provinces of Battamberg, Siem-Reap, and Sisophon are ceded to France, and the right to hold land in Siam is granted in certain cases to French citizens and protegés; France cedes to Siam in return the districts of Dansai and Kratt, together with the islands to the south of Cape Lemling as far as, and including, Kokut; she also surrenders certain rights of extra-territorial jurisdiction in Siam. The exchange of territory described above has taken place within the sphere of French interests, as described by the Declaration of April, 1904, agreed on between Great Britain and France; and His Majesty's Government do not anticipate that British interests in the Far East will be politically affected. Questions of safeguarding the commercial interests of British subjects, who may have concessions in the districts exchanged, will be considered if occasion arises.

  The Edalji Case.
  CAPTAIN CRAIG: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether the presiding magistrate at the trial of Edalji was a trained lawyer with professional experience of criminal cases; and whether he will lay Papers containing the note of the case taken for the use of the Court by the clerk of the magistrate.
  *THE-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE HOME DEPARTMENT (Mr. Gladstone, Leeds, W.): The magistrate who presided at the trial is not, I understand, a practising lawyer, but he has great experience as Deputy-Chairman of Quarter Sessions. In a trial at Quarter Sessions the Clerk of the Peace does not take notes. The only notes taken are those made by the Chairman for his own use. I do not propose to lay any further Papers on the Table.
  MR. F. E. SMITH: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for

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  the Home Department whether the Home Office Estimates will be set down at an early date, in order to afford an opportunity to discuss the decision of the Government not to offer compensation to Edalji.
  *MR. GLADSTONE: If the hon. Member wishes the Home Office Vote taken on an early day and will communicate with the Government through the usual channels, I have no doubt it can be arranged.
  MR. F. E. SMITH: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether, in the prosecution of Edalji, any expert evidence was called to prove that he was the author of certain anonymous letters used against him at the trial; whether the same expert witness was called as was proved to have been mistaken in the Beck case; and whether any further evidence was called to prove that Edalji was the author of the letters in question.
  *MR. GLADSTONE: An expert was called to explain the peculiarities of the writing of the anonymous letters and to give his opinion; but it was made clear to the jury that they must not accept the expert's ipse dixit, but must themselves compare the anonymous with the admitted writing and form their own conclusion. The letters themselves formed part of the evidence, and it was after most carefully examining them and forming their own opinion that the jury gave their verdict. The expert was Mr. Gurrin, who has admitted that in the Beck case he was mistaken in his belief that the disguised writing of 1896 was Mr. Beck's; but it is right that I should say that he gave before the magistrate, and was prepared to give at the trial, very positive evidence that the disguised writing of 1896 was in the same hand as the disguised writing of 1877, and that this evidence, if it had not been excluded at the trial, would, in the opinion of the Beck Committee, have established Mr. Beck's innocence.
  MR. F. E. SMITH: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether there is any reason for withholding compensation from Edalji, other than the suspicion that he may
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  have been the author of the anonymous letters which were produced in evidence at the trial; whether the question was specifically left to the jury whether Edalji was the author of the letters in question; whether there was any specific finding by the jury upon that point; and whether the Committee, who reported upon the propriety of the sentence, had any expert evidence before them, or any evidence additional to that which was called before the jury.
  *MR. GLADSTONE: The Answer to the first part of the Question is that compensation has only been given in rare and exceptional cases, where a free pardon has been granted on the ground that the defendant's innocence has been completely re-established. The Answer to the second and third parts is that the letters were admitted in evidence and submitted to the jury, who examined them for themselves. The Chairman in his summing-up referred to the letters, but the jury found a general verdict on the whole of the evidence. As to the fourth part, Sir Arthur Wilson and his colleagues did not take any evidence, but they had before them the whole of the Home Office papers, including Reports on the handwriting, and they state in their Report that they themselves carefully examined the letters and compared them with Edalji's admitted handwriting.
  MR. F. E. SMITH:inquired whether, if this doubt had not arisen as to the authorship of the letters, compensation, consistently with the practice of the Home Office, would have been given to this man.
  *MR. GLADSTONE: I am afraid I am unable to answer that Question. I must refer my hon. friend to the Papers I have already laid on the Table, for they contain all that I really have to say on the matter.
  MR. ASHLEYasked why this man was released if his innocence was not completely established.
  *MR. GLADSTONE:said that was a question which did not really concern him. The release was consequent on a decision arrived at by his predecessor with which, however, he agreed.
  MR. HARMOOD-BANNER: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether, while Edalji was in prison, any, and what, outrages occurred analogous in character to those for which he was convicted; what was the date and the place of such outrages; and what police reports have been received in respect of the same.
  *MR. GLADSTONE: Three outrages of an analogous character occurred while Mr. Edalji was in prison, on the 21st September, 1903, the 2nd November, 1903, and the 24th March, 1904, all in the neighbourhood of Great Wyrley. Full particulars of these outrages were supplied by the police in reports to the Home Office. In one case the offender was convicted.
  VISCOUNT CASTLEREAGH: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether any notes were taken by the clerk or other servant for the use of the tribunal which tried Edalji or as a record of the proceedings; whether the Home Office are or have been in possession of a copy of such notes; and whether the Committee which recently reported upon the subject asked for or had before them a copy of such notes.
  *MR. GLADSTONE: So far as I am aware, no notes were taken by the "Clerk or other servant" of the Court.

  Fines For Gambling.
  MR. ARTHUR HENDERSON: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether his attention has been drawn to the action of the North London stipendiary magistrate in fining a youth one penny for a contravention of the Gaining Act; and whether he intends taking any action in the matter.
  *MR. GLADSTONE: Having made inquiry into his case I am informed that the offence charged was one under the Vagrant Act Amendment Act, 1873. The magistrate before whom the charge came, took the view that the defendant, who was a respectable young man, had been sufficiently punished by having been arrested and kept in custody for over two hours, and in view of all the circum-
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  stances of the case I see no reason for dissenting from this view.

  Manufacture of Explosives—Kynoch's Case.
  MR. BELLAIRS: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether, in order to prevent the danger of spontaneous explosion, the authorised list of explosives lays down that every explosive in the list and every ingredient thereof shall be so thoroughly purified and otherwise of such a character as to satisfy a test known as the Abel heat test, and specified in a memorandum dated 1st January, 1906; whether the Explosives Act has been contravened by Kynoch, Limited, adding mercuric chloride, which enables the explosive to defeat the official test, so that it might be in a state of decomposition and yet be passed as satisfactory; whether any communications have passed between the Home Office and the War Administrations in reference to recent seizures of explosives and to the facts elicited at the trial of Kynoch, Limited, on 22nd February, 12th March, 20th April, and 24th April; and, if so, will he communicate their nature.
  *MR. GLADSTONE: The Answer to the first part of the Question is, as regards nitro-compound explosives, in the affirmative. The Answer to the second part is that Messrs. Kynochs have been convicted by the magistrates at Grays, in Essex, of the contravention referred to, and the conviction has been affirmed at Quarter Sessions, subject, I understand, to the decision of the High Court on the point of law whether the addition to the explosive of a very small percentage of mercuric chloride is contrary to the wording of the licence. The addition of even a very minute quantity of mercuric chloride to an explosive of this class does defeat the official test in the manner stated. I have arranged with my right hon. friend the Secretary of State for War for the submission to a conference of experts of the question whether it is possible, consistently with the public safety, to deal with the seized explosive in any other manner than by destruction.

  The Home Office and Kynochs, Ltd.
  MR. G. A. HARDY: I beg to ask the Secretary of

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  State for the Home Department whether his attention has been drawn to a letter from the chairman of Kynochs, Limited, in which the Home Secretary is accused of straining the law against Kynochs, Limited, of being unjust and hostile, of refusing to arbitrate or to see the company's representative; and whether he can make any statement on the matter.
  *MR. GLADSTONE: Yes, Sir. I have seen newspaper extracts containing statements of this nature. There has been no straining of the law. In the interests of public safety I have been bound to take action under the Explosives Acts. Arbitration, even if admissible under the Act, would not have met the requirements of the case. According to expert authority, and the regulations which necessarily I have to observe strictly, the use of chloride of mercury, as I have already stated, masks the heat test, and the explosive, therefore, cannot be passed as safe. The arbitration procedure does not give the necessary power to seize, and if need be, to confiscate the explosive, which may be a source of great danger. I have offered to consider any written statement which Messrs. Kynoch may wish to make, but I have nothing more to say while the matter is sub judice.
  MR. MOONEY: Is it not a fact that the inspectors of the Home Office seized upon the magazines of Messrs. Kynoch and suspended the manufacture of this particular article for nine months, while during the same period inspectors passed explosives including the same ingredients by other English manufacturers?
  *MR. GLADSTONE: There was no distinction made. If any explosive is found to contain chloride of mercury, or that which in the opinion of the experts is dangerous to the public, the case will be dealt with and dealt with firmly.
  MR. JOHN REDMOND: May I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether it is not a fact that to the knowledge of the inspectors at the Home Office the manufacture of| this particular explosive manufactured in this particular way with this particular ingredient is going on by other manufacturers, and, further, whether similarly manufactured explosives are not
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  imported into this country from South Africa and Germany containing the same ingredient, and in these circumstances why is one manufacturer singled out for this treatment?
  *MR. GLADSTONE: It is not true that one manufacturer is singled out. In any similar cases brought to my know-ledge similar proceedings will be taken. I am not aware of any explosive being manufactured with this ingredient where we are not taking steps to deal with it.
  MR. JOHN REDMOND: The right hon. Gentleman has not answered my Question. Is it not a fact that this explosive is being manufactured in exactly the same way, with the same ingredients, by other manufacturers to the knowledge of the Home Office inspectors?
  *MR. GLADSTONE: I say emphatically, no. I am not aware of explosives being manufactured with this ingredient, or that such is taking place.
  MR. JOHN REDMOND: Is the right hon. Gentleman taking any steps against other manufacturers, and, if so, why has he waited for nine months?
  *MR. GLADSTONE: The case had been before the Courts of Law, and judgment has only recently been given by the magistrates. It was then taken to the High Court. It is quite obvious that until the law is decided it is impossible to take proceedings.
  MR. BELLAIRS: May I ask whether it is not the case that there is not a particle of evidence against any other manufacturer?
  *MR. GLADSTONE: I am not prepared to say that, but, as I have already stated, of course I will take steps against any manufacturer who puts ingredients which are dangerous into explosives.
  MR. MOONEY: May I ask the right hon. Gentleman if he makes up his mind to take actions against manufacturers in England will he take the same course that he did against Kynochs, and seize the magazines and prevent the manufacture for nine months?
  *MR. GLADSTONE: That is really a hypothetical Question. I have really nothing to add to what I have already said.
  MR. LEAasked whether, owing to the extraordinary dangerous nature of the ingredient, the right hon. Gentleman could not take criminal proceedings.
  *MR. GLADSTONE: I have to act according to the law, and I am doing so.
  MR. WILLIAM REDMONDasked whether it was not a fact that the inspector reported that other firms wore making explosives of this kind, and how was it that the only firm attacked was one giving large employment in Ireland?
  *MR. GLADSTONEsaid the proceedings against Messrs. Kynoch were due to the spontaneous explosion of some of their blasting gelatine. This led to an examination, which disclosed the presence of mercury.

  Taximeters.
  MR. STRAUS: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether Scotland Yard have received any, and, if so, how many, complaints about the taximeter; and what steps he intends to take as regards sealing or stamping the taximeters, which are at the present time being used without official sanction.
  *MR. GLADSTONE: Two written complaints respecting taximeters have been received, each instrument proving on examination to be out of order. In addition several verbal complaints have been received in which, as a rule, the person complaining was unable to identify the cab. The arrangements for sealing taximeters are almost complete, and it is hoped that at an early date all the unsealed taximeters will be withdrawn from use.

  Dundee Postman's Grievance.
  MR. WILKIE: I beg to ask the Postmaster-General whether he is aware that Mr. Jackson Smith, postman at Dundee, passed the examination for sorting clerk in July, 1904, and is informed that there is no likelihood of gaining any benefit by this for a very considerable period; and whether he will
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  take steps to grant Mr. Smith an early appointment.
  THE POSTMASTER-GENERAL (Mr. Sydney Buxton, Tower Hamlets, Poplar): I regret to say that, owing to falling off in telegraph business, there has been a redundancy of staff at Dundee, and it has not yet been possible to provide Jackson Smith with an appointment at that office, nor is there any prospect of providing him with one at an early date. He can, however, be given an immediate appointment at Edinburgh, but this, I understand, he will not accept. I cannot, of course, create additional appointments for sorting clerks and telegraphists at Dundee which ate not warranted by the work of that office in order to provide for a particular officer.

  Australian Mail Services.
  MR. WILLIAM REDMOND: I beg to ask the Postmaster-General when he can make a statement as to the new contracts to be entered into in reference to the Australian mails.
  MR. SYDNEY BUXTON: For particulars of the decision come to in regard to the fortnightly mail service to and from Australia maintained by the Imperial Government I beg leave to refer the hon. Member to the detailed answer which I gave to two Questions in this House on the 27th ultimo. †The mail service in the intervening weeks is provided by the Commonwealth authorities; and I have no information as to the arrangements which will be made by them.
  MR. WILLIAM REDMOND: Will the right hon. Gentleman undertake to give the House the information directly he receives it?
  MR. SYDNEY BUXTON:pointed out that he had no responsibility in the matter.

  Newport (Limerick) Postman's Grievance.
  MR. JOYCE: I beg to ask the Postmaster-General whether he is aware that Mr. John Hartnett, of Newport, Limerick, applied to be made a fully established postman, on the ground
  † (4) See Debates, clxxiv., 1324–5

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  that he had six yours' service as an auxiliary, and has been informed that his request cannot be complied with as there are a good many on the list with still longer auxiliary service; and whether he will take steps to ensure that auxiliary postmen in Ireland shall not have to wait such lengthy periods before being appointed to the staff.
  MR. SYDNEY BUXTON: As Hartnett has not served in any of the capacities which give a claim to preferential appointment he has therefore no claim to an established appointment. It is sometimes possible to appoint a man in his position when no candidate with a claim is available, but all auxiliary postmen are made aware by means of a form which they sign when first employed that their appointment is temporary and gives them no claim to promotion. I regret that I am unable to make any exception to the general rule in favour of auxiliary postmen in Ireland.

  Central Welsh Education Board.
  MR. REES: I beg to ask the President of the Board of Education whether the Government contemplates moving the headquarters of the Central Welsh Board from Cardiff; and, if so, whether the Government will consider the claim of Aberystwith, which is the educational capital of Wales.
  THE PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD OF EDUCATION (Mr. MCKENNA, Monmouthshire, N.): The headquarters of the Central Welsh Board is a matter for the decision of that Board itself. I have no knowledge of any proposal to move them.

  All Saints' School, Halifax.
  SIR WILLIAM ANSON: I beg to ask the President of the Board of Education whether the Board, when they decided to permit the local education authority of Halifax to cease to maintain the All Saints Church of England school, were aware that the failure to carry out the alterations required by the Board to be completed by the 31st March, 1906, was entirely due to change of purpose in respect of a purchase of a part of the premises, and consequent delay in approving the plans on the part of the local authority; that but for this delay the alterations would have
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  been effected within the required time; that plans had been approved and work was about to be commenced when the Education Bill of last Session was introduced; and whether, under these circumstances, the Board will adhere to the terms of their letter of 24th February, 1907, will allow the managers to proceed with alterations for which plans have been approved and tenders obtained, and will continue to treat the school as necessary.
  MR. MCKENNA: The reason given in the hon. Baronet's Question is among those alleged by the managers, but I understand the accuracy of this contention is not admitted by the local authority. Objection was taken to the buildings in September, 1903, and the school has already been granted an extension of more than a year. In view of the condition of the premises I am unable to interfere with the decision at which the local authority have arrived.
  SIR WILLIAM ANSON: Is there any dispute as to the accuracy of the statement made by the managers of the schools? Will the right hon. Gentleman inquire, so that a great injustice may not be done?
  MR. MCKENNA: I have formed my own opinion as to the right and wrong of this controversy, and under no circumstances will I endeavour to coerce the local authority.

  Ness and Beauly Rivers Fisheries.
  MR. WEIR: I beg to ask the Secretary for Scotland, in view of the fact that the Board of Trade fishery boundary of the Ness and Beauly Rivers extends from Chanonry Point to Fort George Barracks, will he explain why the river proprietors, through the local district fishery committee, have been allowed fishery rights to the estuary of these rivers many miles seawards outside this boundary.
  THE SECRETARY FOR SCOTLAND (Mr. SINCLAIR, Forfarshire): I am not aware on what authority my hon. friend bases his statement as to the boundaries of these districts, and may refer him to Schedule B of the Salmon Fisheries (Scotland) Act, 1868, which defines the boundaries. The rights of salmon fishing in the Ness and Beauly districts do not differ from rights held in other districts

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  of Scotland, nor are they exercised in any peculiar manner.

  Strathcarron Railway Crossing.
  MR. WEIR: I beg to ask the Secretary for Scotland, in view of the fact that children residing in the neighbourhood of Strathcarron railway station, Ross-shire, are unable to attend the Camatt public school except by crossing the Achintee river by means of the railway bridge, a practice which has been forbidden by the railway company as dangerous, will he state what steps have been taken to secure the construction of a footbridge over the Achintee river.
  MR. SINCLAIR: I am not aware that the county council have taken any steps in the matter, which lies with them.
  MR. WEIR: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the lives of scores of scholars are being endangered when the river is in spate?
  MR. SINCLAIR: The hon. Member should make representations to the county council.

  Ullapool Steamer Service.
  MR. MORTON: I beg to ask the Secretary for Scotland whether he can say why the steamer "Nightingale," which was put on by the Congested Districts Board to run between Loch Clash and Ullapool, calling at intermediate ports, in December, 1905, was taken off that service in April, 1906; and whether he will consider the desirability of giving a longer trial than four months to test the usefulness of the experimental service to aid the fishing and other industries on the west coast of Sutherland.
  MR. SINCLAIR: I may refer my hon. friend to the last report of the Congested Districts Board, which gives particulars on this matter on page 16. The earnings from fish traffic which it was particularly desired to assist were so small that a repetition of the experiment was not felt to be justified in view of the heavy charge involved upon public funds.

  Galway Barracks.
  MR. GWYNN: To ask the Secretary of State for War whether any steps have been taken to pull down the disused barracks which encumber the principal street in Galway.
  MR. HALDANE: No steps have been taken to pull down the Shambles barracks at Galway, to which apparently the Question alludes. Arrangements are being made to sell the barracks.
  MR. GWYNN: They have been going on for years.

  Monaghan Post Office.
  MR. J. DEVLIN: I beg to ask the Postmaster-General if he can state when the building of the new post office in Monaghan will be commenced; whether he is aware that the negotiations for the acquisition of the old buildings and the site in Mill Street in that town for the new post office have been completed, and that Mr. Clarke, postmaster at Monaghan, took over possession last week of the premises for the Postmaster-General; and if he will give instructions for the necessary advertisements in connection with the contract to issue as soon as possible, as well as the plans and specifications that have been prepared, so that the inhabitants of that town may have the benefit of a well-equipped building in which to transact their postal business.
  MR. SYDNEY BUXTON: No opportunity will be lost to expedite this matter as far as possible.

  Irish Post Office Stores Depot.
  MR. MEAGHER: I beg to ask the Postmaster General, can he say why it has been decided that the Irish stores clerks who may receive appointments in the new stores depot at Dublin will be placed at the foot of the third class, which will have the effect, in view of their age and service, of practically debarring them from all hopes of further promotion, seeing that, when the postal stores and telegraph stores branches were amalgamated, the officers in both branches were placed on the class according to their relative salary and length of service; and will he say why the scale of salary for Dublin is to be £65 to £185, while the London scale is

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  £ 80 to £200, seeing that the cost of living in Dublin is admittedly as high as in London.
  MR. SYDNEY BUXTON: In the case of the amalgamation of the Postal Stores Department and the Telegraph Stores Department the two separate Departments thereon ceased to exist and the staff of each had necessarily to be placed together in the new Department according to their previous standing. In the present instance the class of junior clerks in the Engineering Department, by whom amongst other duties stores work has hitherto been performed, will continue precisely as before, and the clerks can remain on their present duties (excepting only the stores work) with their present scale and prospects. I think, therefore, that the case is fairly met by my offer to receive applications for transfer on the usual condition of entry at the foot of the class, and I may say I have recived a number of applications for transfer on that condition. As regards the scale of pay the usual practice in all Post Office classes is followed.

  Increased Price of Bread.
  MR. FELL: I beg to ask the Prime Minister if his attention has been called to the recent rise in the price of bread; and whether, under the circumstances, he can take any steps to enlarge the sources of the supply of wheat from our Colonies so as to diminish the risk of wheat speculation.
  THE PRIME MINISTER AND FIRST LORD Or THE TREASURY (Sir H. CAMPBELL BANNERMAN, Stirling Burghs): Yes, Sir, I am aware that an increase has recently taken place in the price of bread, but I know of no steps which I can take in the matter. The Government are not responsible for regulating the price of bread.

  Judge Drummond.
  MR. CHARLES CRAIG: I beg to ask the Prime Minister whether, following the precedent set by him last year in the case of the discussion on the conduct of Mr. Justice Grantham, he will grant an early day for discussing the Motion on the Notice Paper with reference to language used by His Honour Judge Drummond from the bench on 21st May at Manorhamilton.
  SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN: The Answer is in the negative.

  Members' Correspondence.
  MR. GINNELL: I beg to ask the Prime Minister whether he has considered an adaptation of the practice of Government Departments, the introduction of free typewriting, or any other plan for relieving Members of this House of the strain and check upon the performance of public duty which the cost of Parliamentary postage imposes; and can he hold out any hope that a remedy, safeguarded against abuse, will be found at an early date.
  SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN: I am afraid that hon. Members must make up their minds to answer their own letters without the assistance of the State either by way of the provision of free typewriters or otherwise. The receipt of many letters is one of the afflictions which we have to accept as incurable, and I am afraid that if His Majesty's Government undertook to answer hon. Members' letters for them, it would only aggravate the malady at its source

  Irish Standing Committee.
  MR. GINNELL: I beg to ask the Prime Minister, having regard to Standing Order 47, which makes all Members representing Scottish constituencies members of a Standing Committee for the consideration of Bills relating exclusively to Scotland, and Standing Order 48, which makes all Members representing Welsh constituencies members of a Standing Committee for the consideration of Bills relating exclusively to Wales, do the Government propose, pending the establishment of a legislature in Ireland, that all Members representing Irish constituencies shall be members of a Standing Committee for the consideration of Bills relating exclusively to Ireland; and, if not, will he state what the intention of the Government is in this matter.
  SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN: I am not aware that any section of Irish Members are in favour of an Irish Standing Committee.

  Small Holdings and Allotments.
  MR. COCHRANE: I beg to ask the Prime Minister, in view of the fact that the Memorandum of evidence

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  as to the demand for small holdings and allotments, and as to the difficulty of obtaining land for those purposes, was only intended to give one side of the case and to substantiate a statement made by the Prime Minister, if he will say whether, as this Memorandum is published at the cost of the country, he can now grant a Return which shall set forth the facts of the case in a fair and impartial manner.
  SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN: The particular paper to which the Member refers was issued in answer to a challenge of the hon. Member's friends; but he will find the whole of the facts of which he is in search in the official papers indicated at the commencement of the Return. Perhaps I may once more repeat the somewhat elementary observation that the fact that land is available in one locality is no answer to the statement that no land is available in another locality.

  Police Protection.
  CAPTAIN CRAIG: I beg to ask the Prime Minister how many persons have been afforded police protection, whole and partial, during the past twelve months in England (including Wales) Scotland, and Ireland, respectively, and the reason for its being afforded.
  SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN: I am informed that during the past twelve months an average of 200 persons have been under special police protection in Ireland. As regards Scotland I understand that no such protection is at present being afforded; there has not been time to ascertain how matters stand with regard to England and Wales. It would be undesirable and entirely contrary to practice to state the reasons for the provision of special protection in individual cases.

  NOTIFICATION OF BIRTHS BILL.
  Reported, with Amendments, from Standing Committee A.
  Ordered, That the Report do lie upon the Table, and be printed. [No. 173.]
  Ordered, That the Minutes of the Proceedings of the Standing Committee be printed. [No. 173.]
  Ordered, That the Bill, as amended, (in the Standing Committee), be taken into consideration upon Monday next, and be printed, [Bill 219.]

BUSINESS OF THE SESSION.
THE PRIME MINISTER AND FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY (Sir H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN, Stirling Burghs): I took the course of asking hon. Members who had Questions on the Paper with regard to Bills before the House to postpone them or drop them, in order that I might, with the leave of the House, make a general statement as to the position of public business. I think that is the most convenient and agreeable course for Members of the House, and I hope they will approve of what I have done. On the Motion for the adjournment over Whitsuntide I gave a brief review of the position of business at that time, and proved, I think satisfactorily, that business was in a good position and that the time of the Session up to that moment had been well spent. I admit that there is one blemish. I hope I shall get credit for my candour. I admit that we have been rather backward in introducing Bills. I do not think it has caused any backwardness in business generally. But undoubtedly we have not dealt with some of the Bills we have undertaken to produce, and I do not hesitate to state what was the reason of that unreadiness, so far as it existed. It was due to the long autumn Session of last year. This is not the occasion, nor will I occupy the time of the House in attempting it, to discuss the often raised and rather controversial question of the proper disposition and allocation of the time of the House during the twelve months of the year. I have always entertained a desire which is prevalent in most quarters of the House, to have an early summer rising. But the difficulty is how you are to make up for the time thus taken off. Although we may, and I hope we may, fall upon some way of distributing the business which will avoid the evil of which I speak, still undoubtedly there are great evils where the House is kept in the active process of legislation up to the days immediately before Christmas. Not because of any tax that that puts upon Ministers — they are the last people to be pitied, because it is their own doing if the business is so arranged

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— nor of any inconvenience oven to Members of the House, but because of this very evil to which I have referred, namely, that the draftsmen and officials of the departments are kept so occupied up to the last moment in watching and assisting in correcting legislation which is in process of passing, that they cannot devote their attention to the Bills that should be ready for the next session; and at the end of the winter session they deserve a short holiday. Therefore, practically, their work cannot begin, until the new session has been inaugurated. I do not say that it is an insuperable evil, but it is a considerable evil, and at all events it is the cause on this occasion of the delay in introducing our Bills. With that example before me, I feel pretty sure that the House will approve of the decision of the Government that we should not repeat this year the autumn session. I know there are many of my hon. friends—gentlemen in all parts of the House—who are quite ready to sacrifice themselves; but the practical difficulties to which I have referred would be almost duplicated if there were two autumn sessions one after the other. There may be occasions when the pressure of business, or circumstances apart from the ordinary legislative business, require an autumn session, but I do not think it is desirable to have a busy legislative session as a whole kept up to the end of the year. From that, which is rather an obiter dictum directly affecting what I have to say to the House, I pass to the task which I have before me. I think the most handy and businesslike thing I can do is to take the King's Speech at the beginning of the session and see how we stand in regard to it. Our programme, was, no doubt, a large one.. It mentioned thirteen Bills of consequence. But that is not an extravagant programme. If it had been more extensive that it is, I think we could hardly be blamed, because we have been for many years prevented from carrying into legislative effect principles to which we have always proclaimed our adherence; and we should not have been worthy of the place we occupy if we had not made a strenuous endeavour to give effect to as many as possible of those principles. Well, there are thirteen legislative items. The first measure named in the Speech was a Bill for the reform of licensing, and
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the fact that it occupies the first place is a proof of our earnestness and of our desire to proceed with it with as little delay as possible. We have departed in no degree whatever from the opinion we have held on that subject. We believe that this is perhaps the most important and immediate matter to which the House can address itself. But this is precisely one of those measures which have suffered from the autumn session. The introduction of this Bill has been so long delayed that, although very great progress has been made in sketching a number of provisions which might be constituted into a Bill, it has been practically crowded out this session. But the obligation laid upon us remains. I myself gave last year a most positive pledge on this subject, one from which I do not recede for a moment. We feel ourselves bound by these pledges, as well as by our own instincts and desires, to promise that this great measure shall be the very first measure of next Session. I believe that any attempt to hurry a measure of this kind through the House would be unwise, and nothing may be lost after all by the time that is given for full consideration. I next come to the proposals for more clearly defining the functions of the Military Forces of the Crown. That refers to the Territorial and Reserve Forces Bill, of which I need only say that the House has received it, on the whole, with favour. Certainly the main design of it has been received with favour, and I have no reasonable doubt that it will pass without much difficulty into law. Then I come to Bills dealing with small holdings and valuation in Scotland. As to the first of these, it is before the Scottish Standing Committee, and I can only hope that the hon. Baronet the Member for the City of London and his associates may not find it absolutely necessary to give to the greater part of the Bill that minute examination which has been devoted— [Opposition cries of "Why not?"] — that minute examination which the hon. Member, no doubt for excellent reasons from his own point of view, had devoted to the first few words of the first line of the first clause of the Bill. The Scottish Valuation Bill has been introduced; I do not know that it has actually been circulated, but it will be immediately in the hands of Members. I now pass to

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the very large question of Irish legislation. The Irish Council Bill, although intentionally and designedly a measure limited in its scope, was, after all, a great measure, because it was so framed as to place under the direct control of the Council, of which by far the largest part was elected, and elected on the most extended franchise, all the chief Irish Administrative Departments—the Local Government Board, including administration of the Poor Law; education, primary, intermediate, and technical; the Department of Agriculture, reformatory and industrial schools; and the Board of Works, with all that appertains to it. That Bill also contains financial provisions that would have enabled this Council, had it been erected, to make great additions to the efficiency of the public services in Ireland. We believe that this measure was one which the Irish people would have done well to give greater attention to, in its details, than appears to have been bestowed upon it at the recent Convention. There appears to have been some misapprehension as to certain details, but those details, so far as they embodied any real fact or truth at all, could have been modified in Committee. Some of them seem to me to have been entirely misunderstood; but, the Leader of the Irish Party in this House having authoritatively announced that he would abide by the decision of that Convention, and the Convention having unanimously rejected it, we feel that we have no choice but to conclude that the entire influence of the Irish Members, speaking for the Irish people, would be thrown against the measure; and in those circumstances, which are a source of sincere regret and disappointment to us, we of course cannot go further with it. It is also clear to the Government, with regard to another great question, that of University education in Ireland, that no practical results can be expected to follow from the introtion, during the present session, of a Bill of that magnitude. During the autumn recess my right hon. friend the Chief Secretary purposes, in Ireland, to devote time and personal attention to this question, and my right hon. friend, whom we all know to be of a cheerful and even sanguine disposition, believes that it is possible and even likely that there may be established or discovered a harmony among the jarring interests and
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opinions on the subject in Ireland—a task I admit which has hitherto defied the best efforts of the pacificator. We do, however, intend to produce in this session, and at an early date to press forward with all the means at our command, a Bill for the restoration of evicted tenants, and to obtain such compulsory powers of purchase as may be necessary to give immediate effect to a long-standing Parliamentary pledge. The object, I believe, will not be without support above the gangway on the other side. The next item in the King's Speech was a Bill for the establishment of a Court of Criminal Appeal. That Bill has been read a second time, and the tenor of the debate is such as to give us good reason to hope that there will be no undue delay. Next in order comes the regulation of the hours of labour in mines. A Bill, as we all know, has passed the Second Reading unanimously. It is a private Member's Bill, and that Bill, obviously and on the face of it, requires elaboration. My right hon. friend the Home Secretary had appointed a Departmental Committee, and I cannot mention that Committee without speaking of the debt we are all under, all of us, and especially those interested in this question, to the Member for Gloucester and those who served on the Committee with him for the manner in which they conducted the inquiry. They have held a most careful and strenuous investigation into the economic conditions and aspects of this question. They have now rendered their Report. That Report, in the first place, shows how absolutely necessary it was to have this inquiry; and, in the second place, it, I hope, furnishes a prospect, at any rate, of a basis for agreement on the subject. My right hon. friend hopes to be able very shortly to prepare a Bill in the light of the Report of this Committee, and, if it is found that differences are not very great, he is not without hope that that Bill may pass during this session. A more likely contingency would be that it should be introduced, that it should be criticised, and be the subject of arrangement and consultation and suggestion and perhaps compromise during the autumn, and that I think is pretty certain to give a satisfactory, workable, and therefore more easily carried Bill in the Session that is to come. In either of those cases, no time

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will have been wasted by this Committee of ray right hon. friend. I pass to the Patent Laws. My right hon. friend the President of the Board of Trade is piloting that Bill through the Committee, and I do not think it will make any large demand on the time of the House. With regard to valuation in England and Wales, I may be allowed to remark that this is not so simple or straightforward a matter as in Scotland, because in Scotland we have the great advantage of an admirable machinery and assessment system to which we can add any further functions or directions that we choose to give. But in England that cannot be said. The machinery | here is complicated and defective. I trust there will not be much bitter controversy on the subject, and I am the more hopeful in that respect because the right hon. Gentleman the Member for South Dublin brought in a Bill in a recent year for this very purpose, and I believe that the main provisions of that Bill can be taken as the basis, at any rate, of any further Bill upon the subject. I would only say that this makes it, of course, difficult to speak positively as to the introduction of this Bill, and its passing into law during this session. We propose to incorporate—it is right that I should say so—with the machinery, proposals or a clause on the lines of the provision in the Scottish Bill, providing for the separate valuation of land divested of improvements. If the happy result should arrive that this Bill can pass, so much the better; but if not, we are well aware it is only due to the authorities that they should be informed of what is intended, and there should also be an opportunity again of receiving suggestions and representations from them, and the way will have been made clear for legislation at the earliest available time. The next Bill on my list is the English Small Holdings Bill, which has had a most favourable reception on the whole, and, above all, it has been fortunate in eliciting an expression of an urgent desire on all sides—particularly among those who think that they ate especially able to speak with authority for the landowners of the country—for a great extension of the facilities for the purchase of land. A sort of coroner's inquest has been held on a speech of mine in which I spoke of the denial of land where it was required. I made no allegations
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then against any particular class or any particular individual. I merely stated what I know to be a fact, but I am very glad that the language I have used has drawn from such high authorities such explicit and unmistakable expressions of their earnest desire to go forward in the matter of the sale of land or the disposal of land for the purpose of small holdings. There ought not to be such a difference of opinion upon this subject as to justify protracted debate. The next item is that of the housing of the people. My right hon. friend the President of the Local Government Board has had a Bill drafted which he can produce at any moment, and will introduce, if it is thought it would be beneficial to the cause that it be introduced this session. That exhausts my list, with the exception of one Bill, a Bill to enable women to serve upon public authorities, which Bill has been introduced into another place, and, in a somewhat improved state of feeling, will not, I hope, prove to be a contentious measure. These are the Bills which were named in the Speech: but now I come to another Bill which has been introduced since the commencement of the session—namely, the Education (Special Religious Instruction) Bill. The Government, after much hesitation, and much regret in many respects, have determined that it is not desirable to go further with that measure. The course of business and the prospects of next session have been considerably modified since this Bill was introduced, and we see our way to propose that we should undertake next session the great task of putting the educational system of the country in order. We intend to give effect to the principles which we have always adhered to on the subject—principles with regard to the control and management of the public elementary schools of this country. It can never have been supposed, I should think, by any one that we should be content to acquiesce in the position of affairs which was left by the action of the House of Lords at the end of last session; and therefore this announcement that in the very earliest session available to us we will deal with this question on broad lines, which will be our own lines—this announcement cannot give rise to any surprise. [Mr. BALFOUR: Hear, hear.] Apparently I am exactly anticipating the wishes of the right hon.

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Gentleman. We are most anxious, of course, as any one must be, to give relief to those who are suffering for conscience sake — we fully appreciate the tremendous sacrifices that are being made for conscience, and which will continue to be made, or be in danger of being exacted, so long as the Act of 1902, which was the work of the Leader of the Opposition, remains in its provisions unrepealed and unlimited. But we think it is a wiser course not to proceed now with the smaller measure. If I describe this smaller measure as an unsatisfactory Bill, I do not wish to be misunderstood; it is not because I agree in any measure with the objections taken against it on what I call denominational grounds; it is on the very opposite grounds that I think it is unsatisfactory. The objection I have in my mind, and which I think is largely entertained on this side of the House, is directed against the adoption of any legislation calculated to give further currency and Parliamentary sanction to the idea that a denomination is entitled to secure for a financial consideration that its particular tenets shall be propagated to nearly half the children in the elementary schools in the country. Therefore, although this small Bill would have a relieving effect to many of those suffering, yet it would have had other effects as well which it is desirable to avoid; and with the immediate intention and prospect of full relief by the adoption of a larger measure I think the best thing is not to proceed further with this Bill. Now I have gone over my list of measures proposed in the King's Speech. I said when I began that I hold both the progress made and the prospect of progress during the rest of the session as satisfactory. I think I have given handsome proof of this in dealing with the different measures we have got. Shall we be criticised on this ground from the other side of the House? I looked, with some tremor, because I did not know what I should discover, into their record, and I find that right hon. Gentlemen opposite when they were in office during the last two years of their reign mentioned twelve Bills in the King's Speech, and passed three. Three out of twelve! I think we shall do better than that. The singular fact that three out of twelve was accomplished in 1904 and repeated in 1905 rather leads us to believe that that is their normal
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pace, and that they consider it a proper proportion. I have no fears, therefore, of being taunted with doing little justice to the programme advanced at the beginning of the session. The House will have gathered from what I have already said that we do not intend to call Parliament together for an autumn session. What we do propose is, if I may recapitulate, to pass before the prorogation the following measures: —The Finance Bill, the Territorial and Reserve Forces Bill, the Small Holdings Bills, England and Scotland, the Valuation Bill (Scotland), the Patents Bill, the Court of Criminal Appeal Bill, the Evicted Tenants (Ireland) Bill, and the Women on Local Authorities Bill, and other less conspicuous Bills which I need hardly enumerate. But let me guard myself against being supposed to be too sanguine, and presuming too much; when I speak of passing a Bill and not being able to pass a Bill I am referring to this House alone. I can only speak for this House. This list is not too much, we think, for this House to pass within the reasonable limit of a session, provided we have, and I make no doubt that we shall have, reasonable co-operation and good will in all parts of the House. But when I look abroad, when I look beyond the House of Commons, my powers of prophecy and forecast fail me altogether. Xo one can tell, I have no knowledge, and no one, on this side of the House at least, has knowledge of the treatment which will be measured out to our legislative endeavours in another place; as to that we are completely in the dark, unless occasionally we are vouchsafed a a little gleam of enlightenment from the right hon. Gentleman opposite. Sir, it is not only that the views, the theories, and the sympathies which are predominant there are, as it seems to us, in conflict with the judgment given by the electorate, of which sometimes they seem to take no account; they are more universally in conflict with the tone and spirit which have been breathed into this assembly. That is why we can form no estimate. What defies calculation is that their power of destruction is so capriciously exercised. One Bill comes before them which is denounced as fraught with disaster, red ruin, and breaking up of laws, and yet after all it comes back to this House unamended in any particular. Other measures, no

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doubt displeasing to Members of that House, and the classes and orders of men to which they belong, are suddenly discovered to be so dreadful that they are subjected to arbitrary and summary treatment. In those circumstances, we cannot count upon them, and we have nothing to do with any estimate that can be made as to what may happen elsewhere. And here I come to the end of my task; but I am brought by this grave consideration with which I have just been dealing to another subject, the promise made in the King's Speech. It would have been out of place in my little review of the King's Speech, because it had nothing to do with immediate legislation. The House will recollect the declaration then made of our deep sense of the importance of this matter. The words in the Speech were these—
"Serious questions affecting the working of our Parliamentary system have arisen from unfortunate differences between the two Houses. My Ministers have this important subject under consideration with a view to a solution of the difficulty."
Some hon. Members have taken it into their heads, apparently, that we are half-hearted in this matter, and I have had numerous inquiries made by inquisitive Members as to when we should proceed to take action in the matter. I am glad to be able now to relieve that anxiety. We have long been of opinion that things cannot be right with our legislative system so long as matters remain as they are. I do not believe there is any man who justifies the present position of affairs. There may be some who find it convenient for their own purposes, but they cannot defend it either in principle or in practice. Therefore, I do not doubt there may be a good deal of united feeling in the matter. But at all events, whether or not we receive support from the side of those who have been impressing upon mo the desirableness of acting speedily, we propose, as soon as we have made a very little further way with the essential business of the session, to bring forward a Resolution on the subject. [OPPOSITION laughter.] And this [pointing to the Opposition benches] is the Constitutional Party! We propose to bring forward a Resolution on the subject, which I believe to be the proper and invariable Parliamentary proceeding. It will be moved either on the 17th or the 24th of this
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month, probably the 24th; and we will then state fully our view of the matter, and shall be glad to submit that view to the judgment of the House.
Mr. A. J. BALFOUR: The House has been treated by the Prime Minister to a statement of great importance; but the right hon. Gentleman will forgive me for saying that, so far as I know, the course he has to-day pursued is one totally without precedent in making a highly controversial speech which ended with an elaborate attack or advance attack on the other House of Parliament. Such a speech has never been made by the Leader of the House except upon some substantive resolution. The right hon. Gentleman spoke by leave of the House. He spoke, therefore, in a sense, without authority. I am following equally by leave of the House; and those who will follow me—as doubtless there will be some to follow me—will be in an equally irregular position. The right hon. Gentleman spoke for three-quarters of an hour. Ho touched upon topics of the profoundest interest, and it is impossible that such a statement should be allowed to pass without some criticism from me. Observe that the day which the right hon. Gentleman has selected for this performance is one on which, by his own action, the House is precluded from pursuing its ordinary course of moving the adjournment, and is also a day when the closure comes into operation at half-past ten o'clock. The right hon. Gentleman assured us more than once that he was extremely well satisfied with the state of public business. What is the position of public business? June has begun, and no Government measure of first-class importance has reached the Committee stage except the Army Bill. That Bill is in Committee under conditions which limit debate. Its main provisions have not been discussed. Yet on one of the few days we are allowed to consider it the right hon. Gentleman comes down and for three-quarters of an hour comments upon what has passed this session, what is going to pass in the autumn by way of negotiation, what is going to happen next sesson, and he seasons his observations by an attack on the other House by way of lightening the general gloom of his picture. If the right hon. Gentleman will allow me to congratulate him on one matter, it is that he has come

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round to the opinion which I ventured to lay before the House on many occasions last year with regard to the propriety or impropriety, expediency or inexpediency, of autumn sessions. I ventured then to say that it is impossible, under a system of autumn sessions to carry on the business of the country. The right hon. Gentleman has put the difficulty down to the draftsmen. But I say that the Ministers who have to direct the draftsmen cannot do their work. This Ministry in particular have not done their work, and largely because they have been so occupied with the autumn session that they were not able to give their minds to framing the lines of the measures which it is their business and not that of the draftsmen to frame. But the right hon. Gentleman will forgive me for saying that I do not think the Government are likely to be in a very much better case under his new method of conducting the business of the House than under his old method. He has told us there is to be no autumn session, but he lays down a programme which I venture to think will take us well on into October before it can by any possibility be concluded. I will not say much about the programme for next session. The right hon. Gentleman told us he had shown his earnestness in favour of temperance reform by putting the Licensing Bill in the forefront of the King's Speech. But what is the use of putting a Bill in the forefront of the King's Speech if, on the very first occasion a statement is made about it, it turns out that the Government do not propose to present it and have not had even time to prepare it? When the Government put this measure first in the King's Speech by way of showing their enthusiasm in the cause of temperance reform, if they had not the Bill drafted at that time, they were not treating the Sovereign as he should be treated ["Oh, oh"], and certainly they were not treating this House as it should be treated. Now it turns out that after they had been reflecting on the temperance question for all these years out of office, and for eighteen months in office, they did not know what the Bill was going to contain, and they do not know now. What is the programme which the right hon. Gentleman, who says he is so well satisfied with the state of public affairs, has put before us?—a programme which
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would have included the Irish Council Bill, if the Government had carried out what I always thought was their view, that in legislating for Ireland they should consult Irish opinion. It is quite evident they never consulted Irish opinion before introducing that Bill; and it is only owing to that singular accident that we are saved from adding to the programme the enormous controversy which any Bill dealing with local government in Ireland must necessarily provoke in this House and in the country. Well, what is the programme for this session? There is the Resolution about the House of Lords. I do not know how long the right hon. Gentleman thinks that will last, but I do not imagine he thinks that a great constitutional change can be dealt with in a few hours. There are the remains of the Territorial Forces Bill. There is the South African Loan Bill, which has not boon mentioned by the right hon. Gentleman. [A LIBERAL MEMBER: Will it be opposed?] It will certainly be opposed; but whether it is to be criticised or not, I do not understand why it has not been mentioned by the Prime Minister. Then there is the Eight Hours Bill for mines. There is the Scottish Valuation Bill, which has not reached the Second Reading, and which raises questions of the deepest importance. There is the English Valuation Bill, of which the same may be said, because nobody is likely to be taken in by the right hon. Gentleman's naive observation that that Bill was in the main to be founded on a measure suggested by my right hon. friend the Member for South Dublin. That is a good foundation, no doubt; but the right hon. Gentleman is going to build on that foundation by adding provisions which cut at the root of the most fundamental principles in regard to property. The right hon. Gentleman knows that cannot be done, and ought not to be done, without the fullest consideration. Then there is the Evicted Tenants Bill, which was not mentioned in the King's Speech, by the way, and which is not yet drafted. There is the English Small Holdings Bill, which has not reached the Second Reading. The right hon. Gentleman, with an air of surprise, congratulated Members on this side that they showed a desire to see the purchase of land facilitated in England. We have always desired to see the purchase of land facilitated in England, in

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Ireland, and in Scotland; but when the right hon. Gentleman bases upon that view an opinion that the English Small Holdings Bill requires no discussion in this House, I would remind him that that Bill does not involve the purchase of land, and that it embodies many other and very important principles, including the coercing of county councils by a Government Department. These are projects the right hon. Gentleman desires to see hurried through before the rising, of the House. Lastly—perhaps relatively unimportant—there is the Pacific Islands Bill, which is absolutely necessary to carry the Convention, for which he is responsible, into effect, and there are other Departmental Bills, like the Wireless Telegraphy Bill, which must be passed. There is the Budget Bill, which must be passed, and there is, I suppose, the House of Lords Resolution, which is to be passed before the end of the month. So there is the whole propaganda, not to mention the Departmental Bills, which, as the right hon. Gentleman says, are more or less in the background, to go through before the House rises, during the months of July and August, I suppose September, and not improbably far on in October. Of those Bills how many are drafted? The House of Lords Resolution we have not seen; the South African Loan Bill we have not seen; the Eight Hours Bill we have not seen; the Scottish Land Valuation Bill—has it reached Second Reading? [Cries of "No"; "Not printed."] It has been introduced, and if it has not yet been printed, weeks having been allowed to pass; that is a gross irregularity which, no doubt, the Minister in charge will see remedied at once. The English Bill we have not seen; the Evicted Tenants Bill we have not seen; the Small Holdings Rill has received a First Reading; the Housing Bill we have not seen; and there are Departmental Bilk we have not seen. The right hon. Gentleman is satisfied with the position; is anybody else satisfied? Is there any other human being in the House who has heard my enumeration of Bills and description of the state of public business who will say that the position is what it ought to be, and is not most discreditable to those who are responsible for it? It is not as if the Government had introduced a great many measures which have not passed; they
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have not been introduced, not drafted, not decided upon; and in the near neighbourhood of the dog days we are going to have a whole mass of legislation thrown at our heads without even now having the least idea of what that legislation is going to be. Yet this sanguine Government have even now got so far in the construction of the King's Speech for next session that they tell us they are going to deal with the Irish University question by a Bill which is not to be on the lines which their late colleague said were the only lines that would be acceptable to the Government. I confess I do not understand the view of Ministerial responsibility the Government seem to hold. I imagine that Mr. Bryce, when he was a member of the Government, spoke for the Government, and the fact that he is no longer a member of the Government does not render his words wholly vain and nugatory. I, therefore, listened with amazement when the right hon. Gentleman said the lines which Mr. Bryce said were the only lines the Government would consent to consider are to be abandoned. I am glad they are to be; but they are to be abandoned by the unfortunate Minister who has now charge of Irish affairs, and he, poor man, is to spend his autumn in devising a new Irish Universities Bill. But the Home Secretary is still more to be pitied, for he is not only to spend his autumn in trying to devise a temperance measure, but he is also to be occupied in negotiating an Eight Hours Bill for mines to be passed next year. Last of all, we are to have education reform from top to bottom on broad lines. But is that to come before temperance, or is temperance to come before education? and where are we going to find the interstices for the Eight Hours Bill and the Irish University Bill? All this programme is irregular, is inopportune in the time chosen for its description; surely it is mere word-building. The right hon. Gentleman must know as well as I that this or next session will not suffice to carry out the programme he has in a sanguine spirit chosen to lay before us. I do not believe that any Government on 3rd June ever promised so many first-class Bills in the hope of passing them in the same session, some of the Bills not having been even introduced. The right hon. Gentleman has referred to precedents; but can he find

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any Government, either of his own Party or of this, who ever on 3rd June announced—not for an autumn session, but in a normal session—seven first-class Bills for passing, not even read a first time? I do not think the right hon. Gentleman has cause to congratulate himself, as I thought he did, on the position. If he is happy, it is hardly for us of the Opposition to complain. I agree with him that the heaviest labour falls on the Ministers—perhaps less on present Ministers than others I have known—but the greatest labour does no doubt fall to the Ministers; but if ho looks forward with satisfaction to sitting on to October it is not for the Opposition, whose labours are lighter and in many respects far more agreeable, to complain. I believe that the part of the statement of the right hon. Gentleman that will attract more general interest than the fantastic programme written on a slate to be afterwards wiped off, though it occupied the larger part of the three-quarters of an hour—the great topic of interest is, after all, the Irish Bill. Upon that I do not mean to dwell. I suppose the Leader of the Irish Party will have something to say upon that, but I may congratulate the House upon the abandonment of a Bill which had no merit whatever from any point of view. It most ingeniously contrived to dissatisfy every Party and every fraction of a Party in the House. It is not the kind of measure upon which it was worth while to ask the House to spend great labour through weary nights and days, and the House is to be congratulated upon the position at which it has arrived. But why was that position necessary? Why was there this division of opinion between the Ministers who brought in the Bill and those whom the Bill was to satisfy? I should have supposed that there would have been formal, or at all events informal, communications passing before the introduction of the Bill; but of that I can say nothing—others are more deeply concerned than I; but this I will say, that it is one of the most singular attempts I have yet seen to govern Ireland according to Irish ideas. I am aware that, like the Prime Minister, I am only speaking by the leave of the House, and we are both irregular. I think I have dealt with all the topics suggested
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by the right hon. Gentleman, and I have only to thank the House for the courtesy of listening to a speech which I admit has been somewhat controversial in character, but which was not unprovoked.
MR. JOHN REDMOND: I take it for granted the House will extend to me, as to others, its courtesy for a few moments. I can, however, promise not to abuse that indulgence by delivering a controversial speech. I have risen only for the purpose of making two or three remarks which seem to me are rendered necessary by the statement of the Prime Minister. First, let me say upon the topic that concerns all Members —the advancement of business and the convenience of Members in all quarters of the House—that while I admit there was no other course open to the Prime Minister than to abandon an autumn session this year, at the same time I entertain the view very strongly indeed that the only way in which the accumulating business of the House can in any degree be effectively transacted is by regulating the arrangements for the sittings of the House, so that, adjourning earlier in the summer, a regular autumn session might be held every year. In that way the House would be enabled to rise early in July, and I do not think the majority of Members would object to a two months' sitting in the autumn to finish before Christmas. I do not think that any other satisfactory arrangement can be made for discharging the duties imposed on the House. With reference to the Irish Bill, to which the Leader of the Opposition has just alluded, I have only one or two observations I desire to make. I am not one of those who was greatly astonished or greatly disappointed with what has happened. I know, as every practical man knows, that the late election resulted in the return to the House of, I believe, a substantial majority of Members who believe that the ultimate settlement of the Irish Question can only be found in putting full trust in the Irish people in the same way as it was given to the French in Canada and to the Dutch in the Transvaal, and so forth. At the same time, I knew as a practical man that the Government would not, for reasons which I need not enter into now, but which I deplored most earnestly at the time, introduce in this session

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of Parliament a Home Rule Bill. I further realised, I never in any communications which I may have held with anybody disguised the opinion, and always realised that in attempting this half measure, Ministers were undertaking an impossible task, and that they would find by hard experience that there was no alternative, no reasonable or logical alternative, to a full trust in the people in this matter. Although I have been willing, and I have done my poor best as far as I could, to assist those who were endeavouring to find such a settlement as was attempted, I never for one moment disguised from myself that the task was in the nature of a hopeless one, and that it would be impossible to devise a really workable and logical half-measure. With reference to the Bill itself there are one or two matters to which I desire to allude. First of all the Prime Minister said that it seemed in his view that it would have been possible, if the Bill went into Committee, for us to obtain all those Amendments we considered vital to the Bill. I daresay we might have induced the majority of this House to make some Amendments, and I agree with the Prime Minister that apparently there was some misunderstanding with reference to some of the more vital portions of the Bill, because I have heard it stated since that—for example, on the question of the Lord Lieutenant's veto—we did not fully understand the mind and intention of the Government. What I want to point out is that on the point which we all considered the most vital of all, viz., on the constitution of the body, I had no belief, and I have not now, from anything I have heard or knew, that in Committee it would have been possible for us to have obtained an Amendment such as I might say without any breach of confidence we pressed on the Government as strongly as we could. My information was entirely to the contrary. That was a settled point, and there was no hope that we should be able to obtain that Amendment if we went into discussion on the details of the Bill. There is only one other matter about the Bill I want to allude to. I was astonished when I came back to this country from Ireland to find that an idea was prevalent among some Members in this House that the defeat of the Bill, in Irish public opinion, was due to clerical interference and influence. Ono of the heart-breaking things about
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Ireland is that it seems to be impossible for people in this country thoroughly to understand Irish questions or Irishmen. I appeal to all my colleagues in this House who are around me, and many of whom, remember, are Protestants, whether it is not absolutely true for me to say that there never was a decision given in the field of Irish politics which was less influenced by any clerical considerations whatever. The point which is in the minds of some hon. Members with reference to the education portion of the Bill was not discussed to any considerable extent in Ireland at all, and one, two, or three eminent ecclesiastics who did speak upon the Bill actually picked out this as the only redeeming feature of the Bill. The Archbishop of Dublin himself said that the educational portion was the only redeeming feature ho saw in the Bill. I therefore say that there never was a more complete misunderstanding of the case than the idea which has been spread abroad in this country that the result was influenced by clerical interference. It was not. It was, if I may so describe it, a perfectly genuine and spontaneous outburst of Irish lay opinion on this question. I, who had been considering this matter, and considering details, to see whether it was possible that something in this direction could be done, was not shocked by the Bill in the same way as men to whom it came for the first time. When these people, who, while they were not expecting full Home Rule, did expect something short of Homo Rule and which should yet mean a complete trust in the people, saw this Bill put before them, there was a spontaneous outburst of public opinion, not influenced by mo, not influenced by my colleagues in this House or by my colleagues in Ireland or by public men of any sort—an absolutely spontaneous outburst, in the face of which it was absolutely impossible to believe the Bill would meet with any other fate than that which overtook it. The rejection of the Bill raises very serious considerations. The Irish people cure comparatively little about all your ameliorative legislation compared with the question of self government, and the rejection of this Bill raises the serious question in what direction they will marshal their forces so as to put this question again in the forefront of Imperial polities. I pass now

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to another matter. I confess I heard with great regret the statement made by the Prime Minister on the University question. Let me in two or three sentences recall to the memory of the House how the matter stands. The late Government declared that they could not deal with this question until there was practical unanimity of opinion in Ireland. That meant, of course, the practical shelving of the question, because you never can have practical unanimity on a question of this kind in Ireland any more than you can have practical unanimity of opinion on any educational question in England. But when the present Government came into office they adopted what I regard as a much more statesmanlike and reasonable attitude. They first appointed a small Commission to complete an inquiry already set on foot to inquire into the whole problem of University education, and when the Report of that Commission came out the late Chief Secretary (Mr. Bryce) made a most remarkable speech, and he made it under most extraordinarily dramatic circumstances. The new Chief Secretary had been appointed. He had not actually taken up office, but I understand as a matter of fact that he held office at that time. At any rate he did hold office a few days afterwards. He was nominated for the office and Mr. Bryce went over to say his farewell word to the Irish people, and, by way of fare-well to them, he made them a solemn promise, not, mark you, on his own behalf or on behalf of himself alone, but as the representative of the Government and on behalf of the Government, and what he said amounted to this: that the policy of the late Government in hanging up this question until there was absolute unanimity in Ireland was not the policy of the present Government, that they were determined to take up this question, to introduce a Bill immediately, and he proceeded to sketch in detail what he said was the Government scheme. Whatever differences there may have been as to the merits of this scheme in comparison with other schemes previously suggested, this at any rate was the result of that action: that all those who represented at any rate Catholic and national opinion came out and declared that they would accept his scheme. The representatives of the Irish Nationalist Party said so; the Irish
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Hierarchy said so; and practically all those in Ireland who may be classed in the terms Nationalist or Catholic declared that they would accept the scheme, although in many cases it was not the one that they individually would have preferred. But now, not only are the Government not going to introduce this Bill this session, but we are face to face with the fact that they are not going to introduce it at all. I did not believe that they could pass it this session, but I did believe they could introduce it, as they are doing with reference to another Bill mentioned, for discussion in the autumn. Not only that, however, but they have absolutely reverted to the policy of their predecessors, that is to say, they (the Prime Minister and the Chief Secretary) are to spend time in devising a scheme that will unite everybody in Ireland. Well, that is an impossible task. No one knows it more than the Chief Secretary himself, and I think it is most lamentable that this backward movement should be made upon this question. One word upon another subject before I sit down. I rejoice extremely that the Government are going promptly to fulfil the promises made at the beginning of the session with respect to the evicted tenants by giving the Estates Commissioners powers to take land compulsorily in order to restore these men to their homes. [An HON. MEMBER: How many of them are there?] The Chief Secretary promised the figures before the end of May, and said that by then his inquiries would be completed, and that he would be able to give the exact figures. But I do not think—I say this, of course, without having seen the figures —that the number is so large as to make it a very serious or difficult question, and I recall with the greatest pleasure the conciliatory speech made by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for South Dublin in the debate which took place at the beginning of the session, when he clearly indicated that he and his friends would be no parties to standing in the way of the fulfilment of the promises made that these tenants should be restored to their homos. But there is another matter about which I feel the greatest possible anxiety, namely, the delay which is occurring in the presentation of the Report of the Dudley Commission. The disturbances, such as they were, have been greatly exaggerated, and in the

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West of Ireland are entirely due to the delay in the issue of that Report. I am not to be taken as blaming Lord Dudley or anyone connected with the Report, but I would urge the Government to expedite the work of that Commission in order that they may be able to found next year legislation upon that Report. There is at present before the House a Bill introduced by the Irish Party, dealing with the amendment of the Land Act of 1903. The Second Reading was supported by the Government, and was passed through that stage by a large majority and sent to one of the Standing Committees. But we recognise that it is impossible for us in the remaining portion of the session to turn that Bill into an Act of Parliament, and I regret that the Prime Minister did not include an expression of hope which would have given us confidence to the effect that he hoped next year to legislate on the lines of the Irish Land Bill now before the House and on the lines of the Dudley Report, which so far as one can gather will be a unanimous Report recommending a sweeping amendment of the Land Act of 1903. Those are the only remarks I have to make. I regret extremely that we had not had a more satisfactory attitude from the right hon. Gentleman in regard to Irish affairs. But at the same time I recognise that in these matters, friendly as this Parliament and this Government are to Ireland, we shall have to rely in the long run, as we have done for the last twenty years, on ourselves alone.
*MR. J. RAMSAY MACDONALDsaid the Labour Party regretted very much that the Prime Minister had not seen his way to give them the pleasure of an autumn session. They had come to Parliament to do work; they had appealed to their constituents to be allowed to do work; and they desired to sit through the autumn in order to fulfil their pledges. The Prime Minister must have been painfully aware that even the programme, the exited programme, which he had set down would take him up to the end of October to carry out if the House was to have any chance of considering the proposals of the Bills that had still to be introduced and of those which had been introduced but had hardly passed beyond the introductory
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stage. There were two matters in which they were very much interested, as to one of which ho put down a question for that afternoon which was postponed on the understanding that the information would be given in the right hon. Gentleman's statement. He wished to know what was going to happen to the Scottish Education (Provision of Meals) Bill. The Prime Minister must be aware that the Secretary for Scotland in the Committee upstairs gave a distinct pledge that the Bill for which he was responsible was going to be proceeded with, and that it was therefore unnecessary to go on with the Bill for which he (Mr. Macdonald) was responsible. Because of that pledge he (Mr. Macdonald) had accepted a certain course upstairs. He wished to know now what the Government proposed to do with regard to the Bill, because the right hon. Gentleman had not referred to it in the statement he had just made. The other Bill in which they wore interested was the Minors Eight Hours Bill. He could hardly believe that the Liberal Government would wait for the Report of a Commission to find out what the opinion of the trade was on an eight hours day, or the economic effect of an eight hours day. Seventy-five per cent. of the supporters of the right hon. Gentleman had committed themselves to a miners' eight hours day. An Eight Hours Bill was mentioned in the King's Speech. The House had given the Bill a Second Reading time after time, and if the Bill introduced this year was loosely drafted, the explanation was simple. It was that the Government had given the most effective pledge it could give, that they had considered the whole of the question and were prepared to produce a Bill of their own. So far as the Commission to which the right hon. Gentleman had referred was concerned, there were different opinions as to the value of its Report. There were many who were under the impression that the expenditure of £20 would have produced as good a Report as this which would cost some thousands. But however that might be, the position was clear. They had been told at the beginning of the session that this Bill was going to be introduced; that the whole details had been considered; and in the King's Speech they were certainly given to understand that the Government was going to do its best to push the Bill forward. The position now was that the Government

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was going to introduce a Bill which was to be subject to the criticism of the House, and that, having drawn that criticism, they were going to withdraw the Bill to introduce it possibly next year. There were two parties in the House who did not agree on the subject—the Miners' Federation, which demanded a Bill on the lines introduced by the Labour Party this year, and another section which declared that an Eight Hours Act would not meet its industrial conditions. No argument or criticism would eliminate the difference between those parties. The Government had either to force a Bill through the House with its large majority, or to declare that it did not intend to do anything at all. The Miners' Eight Hours Bill and the Scottish Education (Provision of Meals) Bill might well be put down for an autumn session, and then those who wore prepared to work could come and work, and those who were not or could not must take the responsibility of being absent. He admitted that the officials might find it awkward to do their work in their Departments, but as the right hon. Gentleman had stated that he was now content with the state of business, was it not possible, if that was so in 1907, he might come to the House again in June, 1908, after an autumn session, and express content with the state of business then? The fact of the matter was that the business in which the Labour Party was concerned was in such a bad state owing to the business passed by previous Governments that it must be pressed on, and if they could not face an autumn session in a new Parliament they would not be able to do so later on. Then there was the Housing Bill. If that Bill was ready, why did not the Government introduce it, late though it was? He hoped it was not too late to urge the Prime Minister to bring them together for an autumn session to attend to these matters.
Sir ALFRED THOMASsaid he hoped the Government, who wore not going to have an autumn session—although he would be very glad to sit in the autumn either this year or next- would not forget the great questions in which Wales was interested.

TERRITORIAL AND RESERVE FORCES BILL.
Considered in Committee
(In the Committee.)
[MR. EMMOTT (Oldham) in the Chair.]
Clause 5:—
*Mr. ASHLEYmoved an Amendment providing for the enlistment of certain units in the Territorial Force who should be liable for service outside the United Kingdom, with the idea that the new Territorial Force should be given an opportunity to afford help in times of need to the Regular forces when the First-class Reserve had been called out. He proposed by the Amendment to enable the Army Council, working hand-in-hand with the county associations, to earmark certain units of the Territorial Force, which should be composed exclusively of men who had undertaken the liability to serve abroad at times of grave national emergency. There was nothing in the Amendment which should prevent men from going over to the foreign service from the Home service units in time of war or peace. That would be a great help to the Regular Forces when war broke out. It had three distinct advantages over the plan of the right hon. Gentleman. First, it enabled the nation through the Army Council to know exactly what number of men the country would be able to rely on in time of need. Secondly, it obviated the objectionable practice which obtained in the Militia of asking men to volunteer for the front in circumstances where they could not refuse without the risk of being called cowards. Thirdly, the territorial recruit would know exactly what his engagement was. Under the Bill, he would be engaged for Home service, and when a war broke out he would be asked to volunteer for foreign service. It was not necessary to press upon the Committee the necessity of preparation during peace for what might happen in time of war. He protested against the opinion which prevailed both inside and outside the House that they could organise within a short time forces which could repel an

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invasion or raid. The hon. Member for stoke on the 11th April last said—
"He did not think there would be any difficulty in getting men for the Territorial Army. If an official paragraph appeared in the evening papers announcing that a hostile force had landed on our shores a million bayonets would be gleaming in the morning sun, and if the Secretary for War could not provide the bayonets, he would soon find himself swinging from the nearest lamp post."
He hardly thought that the sacrifice of the Secretary of State at the nearest lamp post, would propitiate the gods so that this million of men, without discipline, without organisation, without officers, would be able to resist a well-organised and well-drilled foreign force. Therefore, he protested most strongly against the idea which prevailed that an organised force could be improvised at any time. The whole history of war was against that idea. There was not a single instance in which raw levies had successfully stood against veteran troops. It might be said that the French troops, at the end of the 18th century, wore marvellously effective against the disciplined and veteran troops of Austria; but there was in their favour the special circumstances of their enthusiasm for Republican principles. He did not think that it would be denied that in all probability the function of the land force, whether Regular or Territorial, in the future as in the past, would be that of an oversea service. This country had not boon invaded for hundreds of years, and he hoped it would so continue, which would be as long as the Navy remained what it was. Therefore the force to supplement our Regular force would be a supplementary oversea Force, and, above all things, it should be a voluntary one. He could not imagine in any circumstances this country allowing conscription for oversea service. Conscription on the Continent was for home defence, though it might be that the bust way to defend the homeland was to carry the war on to the enemy's soil. The best defence was sometimes the offensive. There were two instances in recent years in which conscript soldiers had been sent abroad, and each was a lamentable failure. Ho referred to the French in Madagascar, where the conscript Army had no organised military opposition to meet, where they lost thousands of men, and the cost to France amounted to millions of pounds. The other instance
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was that of Italy in Abyssinia, where they met a martial race, and the disasters which overtook a friendly nation in the Abyssinian campaign were deeply regretted. Germany had profited by those two lessons, for she did not send conscripts to West Africa, but called for Volunteers from among her Army, and those men, on the whole, had done extremely well, and, in spite of great difficulties, had carried the campaign to a successful conclusion. Therefore, as we should never consent to conscription for oversea service, ho hoped the Committee would consent to give favourable consideration to this proposal, as it would undoubtedly enable volunteer oversea units to be organised to supplement the Regular Forces. It could not be said that the Regular forces were too large. Were they too large for the war in South Africa? No. They all knew at what great expenditure units had to be hastily organised, and not always on a satisfactory basis. The right hon. Gentleman had reduced the Regular Army by 400 officers and 40,000 men; there was all the more reason, therefore, for strengthening the Territorial Army for oversea service. Then organisation was necessary for sending the Territorial Force abroad in its units, and also for taking the men of the Home Service who volunteered to go out in the battalions earmarked for foreign service. He imagined that the Home Service units would take the place of the Regular troops who were sent to the front in our naval stations, our garrison towns, and wherever there were barracks. The foreign service units would go, he imagined, to our stations abroad, such as Gibraltar, or they would go to such places as Aldershot and Curragh, where they would receive a thorough drilling and grounding, and be forwarded to the front as soon as they were fit. The right hon. Gentleman could not say that it was not necessary to have such units to go oversea, for this reason: He had abolished the Militia; that force had been done away with never to return. What was he going to do in the case of such a war as that in South Africa? The Militia were most necessary in that war to look after the lines of communication. What units had the right hon. Gentleman got to take the place of the Militia if he did not adopt such a plan s was suggested by the Amendment? The

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right hon. Gentleman could not say: "We have got these third battalions." Those battalions would have enough to do to drill the recruits for the Regular Army, and they could not be in two places at once. The right hon. Gentleman had said in an airy manner that the third battalions would throw off other battalions; but it would not be quite so easy for them to do that as for the Secretary for War to make a speech. They would be fully occupied in training recruits for the Regular Army. If they turned back to the debates of 1904 they would see that on both sides of the House it was generally put forward that it was desirable that Volunteers should in future take a more active part when war was going on, and supplement the Regular Army in the field. On the 3rd April, 1905, the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs said—
"What we shall have to do if we are ever engaged in a great war is to rely on our Navy, and our Regular Army, as prepared in time of peace, to give us security at the outset, and then, to give ourselves staying power, to manufacture soldiers as the war goes on. I believe that is what Japan has been doing with conspicuous success. How are we to get these large numbers in time of war, and as quickly as possible? We can only get them out of the Volunteers. The Volunteers, I think, must be made to feel that their system is a real system of national training, by means of which, if this country is ever attacked in a great war, either at home or abroad, the nation will be able to use all its resources and united energies for the defence of any part of the Empire."
He cordially agreed with the sentiments there expressed by the right hon. Gentleman, who put clearly the attitude which they ought to take up with regard to this matter. The Bill expressly enlisted men in the Territorial Force for service at home, and clearly, on the terms of the enlistment, the force enlisted for service at home could not go to support the Regular Force abroad in time of war, as they would wish them to do. The proposal had often been made to earmark the Yeomanry and Militia for foreign service. In July of last year the Secretary for War stated that there were proposals to make the Yeomanry liable to serve abroad in time of war. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Croydon included in his proposals, in 1904, that the Militia should be made liable for foreign service; and last year the present Secre-
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tary for War said that such a proposal would be introduced. He had made good the ground that there was no difference of opinion, broadly speaking, that the Yeomanry and Militia should be made liable for foreign service in their units. Then as to the Volunteers. The right hon. Baronet the Member for the Forest of Dean had told them last Wednesday how the Volunteers were raised in 1859. They were raised entirely for homo defence and with the idea of resisting invasion. They bad no idea of going abroad. But as time went on, they became more disciplined and efficient, and, as was shown in the South African War, they did excellent service, and contributed largely to the successful conclusion of that campaign. It was now obsolete to say that the Volunteers were entirely intended to resist invasion. They saw that in the South African War. There wore certain Volunteers, the younger and unmarried men, with no ties, who were anxious to serve their country in time of need. Lot them for a moment consider the number of Yeomanry, Militia, and Volunteers, who could be drawn upon for the foreign-service units. Last year there were 245,000 Volunteers on the rolls. A very large proportion of that total would not and could not be available for the foreign-service units. There were 69,000 of them under twenty years of age, who could not therefore be sent abroad, and at least 6,000 would have to be counted as being over forty-five years of age. Consequently, 75,000 of the full totals wore ruled out on account of ago. Then they had to take into consideration the number who would be medically unfit. In the year 1904, when 180,000 Volunteers were examined, no less than 29,000 were found to be medically unfit for active service, and it was estimated that if the whole force had been examined 40,000 would have been found unfit. Many of these would be ruled out by age also, but there must be 25,000 unfit on medical grounds alone, which made altogether about 100,000 who could not be relied upon to form any part of the foreign-service units. A great number of Volunteers were employed in dockyards, shipyards, upon railways, and in the Government service, and, consequently, they could not be spared to go abroad There was also a largo number who would not want to

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go abroad. Therefore, they would have to add another 25,000, which would make 125,000 who could not be relied upon for active service. Of the remaining 120,000 those married and those who could not leave their business must be deducted, say 60,000, which left about 60,000 to join the foreign-service units. With regard to the Yeomanry, they numbered 26,000 effectives who were very efficient, and possessed good physique, and out of those they would probably get 20,000 for foreign service. That would bring the total up to 80,000. There wore 93,000 Militia; 20,000 of that total were under twenty years of age, and another 23,000 must be set down as medically unfit. That would give them 50,000 Militia, and if they added that number to the 80,000 ho had already mentioned they would get 130,000 men available for the foreign-service units, or rather more than one-third of the Territorial Army. They enlisted a man in the Militia for home service, and when war broke out they invited him to go to the front under circumstances under which no man could refuse. That man might be a married man or have a business to look after, and when he enlisted, if ho had desired to go to the front, he would have joined the Regular Army. In that way a large number of men were forced to go abroad on active service who had not intended to go when they enlisted. Under the plan ho was suggesting the liability for foreign service would be strictly laid down. The man who joined for active service would know exactly what ho had enlisted for, and the man who joined the Territorial Army would know that he was not expected to go outside the United Kingdom, although he would be permitted to volunteer for foreign service. With regard to the question of six months embodiment if war broke out, he would like to ask the Secretary of State for War for what purpose this embodiment was to take place in time of war. Surely it could not be to resist invasion, because he could not imagine the right hon. Gentleman would have loft his serious training of the men until war broke out if there was any danger of invasion. He was strengthened in that opinion by some words which fell from the Leader of the Opposition a short time ago. The right hon. Gentleman, speaking as Prime Minister and Chair-
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man of the Committee of Imperial Defence, said that a serious invasion of these islands was not an eventuality which they needed seriously to consider.
Mr. A. J. BALFOURsaid that that interpretation of his speech had been made upon several occasions, and it was somewhat misleading. What he maintained in the speech to which his hon. friend had referred was that with the defensive force they then had at home added to the Fleet they need not fear serious invasion; but the Home Defence Forces were an absolutely indispensable element of national security. Ho did not wish to be misinterpreted, but if the hon. Member would look more carefully at the quotation he would see that his interpretation was not a correct one.
*MR. ASHLEYsaid he would be very sorry to misrepresent the right hon. Gentleman. At any rate, the Secretary of State for War must believe that there was no danger of a serious invasion, or he would not have put off the training of the Territorial Army until war broke out, but would have trained the men in time of peace. If the Navy was defeated it did not matter much what troops we had here, because they would be starved out. Was it for the purpose of training troops for oversea service that the right hon. Gentleman had started the idea of the six months' embodiment? If so, why did he stipulate that these men were only to be enlisted for home service; it would be much fairer to tell the recruit that ho might be asked to volunteer for service outside the United Kingdom. It might be said that they would not be able to get sufficient men to accept the obligation, and that the men would object because they could not afford to lose their situations. Surely if war broke out the men would run the same risk by being mobilised for six months. He could not see that it made any difference to a man's losing his job whether he was training at home or fighting at the front. Consequently his proposal did not place the men in any worse position in regard to getting employment after his service was over than ho would be under the scheme of the right hon. Gentleman. He thought the Committee ought seriously to consider the over sea volunteer force which was dimly outlined in the Bill.

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There was a great danger that the framework of the Bill might eventually be used for the purpose of conscription, because that could be accomplished simply by applying a Bill of one clause. They were this scheme dividing the men up into two classes—the men who were so circumstanced that they could go abroad to fight, the others who could only serve at home. There must always be two classes of men in the Volunteers, namely, the young men who were full of spirit, who wished to see life, and had no ties and encumbrances, and the men who from age or ties of business or marriage could only undertake more limited service. Why should they prevent the nation having the services of those young and active men? He begged to move the Amendment standing in his name.
Amendment proposed—
"In page 6, line 19, after the word 'consisting,' to insert the words' of such units as hereinafter provided, of which units a number to be specified by the Army Council shall be corn-posed of men liable for service in places outside the United Kingdom when the First Class of the Army Reserve is called out, and.'"—(Mr. Ashley.)
Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."
*THE SECRETARY OF STATE for WAR (Mr. HALDANE, Haddington)said that on this Amendment almost any question could theoretically be raised. The Committee could hardly desire to go over again the ground which had been travelled on the Second Reading debate. He thought the hon. Member who moved the Amendment was disposed to pay insufficient attention to the essence of the proposition this scheme made. The expeditionary force, which, so far as the infantry were concerned, consisted of six divisions of throe brigades each—that was to say, of seventy-two battalions in all, sixty-six of the Line and six of the Guards—would, assuming these proposals were carried out, be a much larger force than any force of the kind we had ever before had available. That was to say, it would be capable of being mobilised and sent abroad on a scale and with a facility that had not existed before. Of course, for the purpose of an argument, he was assuming that the scheme was successfully carried out. If that was so, the bulk of the substratum
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on which the hon. Member had rested his argument disappeared. He agreed with the hon. Member that it was much more likely that we should want men to fight abroad than at home. The Government hoped and believed that it was a remote contingency that they would all be sent away at once, but there would be available a greater number of units than had ever been available before. The sixty-six battalions of Line infantry did not exhaust what they had at their disposal. There were six more available for lines of communication and for extra units. Then there was what they would have out of the Irish Militia battalions, and what they could get out of the third battalions. He would not go into that. If the proposals of the Government were carried into effect, there would be a force for service over-sea so large that it was not really necessary or desirable to contemplate going further. It was a force of a size which had not even been proposed up to the present time, much loss formed.
MR. ASHLEY: Why. then, was Clause 12 put in if it is not proposed to send any of these Territorials abroad?
*Mr. HALDANEsaid that Clause 12 was put in to define the utmost limit to which they could go in dealing with a force which was essentially for home defence. He thought the remark of the Leader of the Opposition was perfectly consistent in this matter. The light hon. Gentleman suggested that they might have raids, although not on a large scale. Those raids required that they should have a home force, and that it should be sufficient to give the necessary security. They must not deduct from it under ordinary circumstances, to a large extent, and consequently they had put under Clause 12 all that they could. If they had taken any other course they would really have been setting up a third line instead of adhering to two, which was the very basis of the Government plan of reorganisation. The hon. Member had said it would be a risky thing to leave matters until the outbreak of war before beginning seriously to consider the training of the second line force. The purpose of the Government was to give a much more complete organisation and a much better chance of training to this home defence force than the present home defence force possessed.

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The six months training, it was quite true, was of the very essence of the proposal for raising the standard of efficiency of those units. While that was so nobody contemplated that it was in the least probable that the whole of the expeditionary force would have to leave these shores at this same time. In the ordinary course of things, they would go out gradually, and meanwhile the units which remained would be available for garrison defence and coast defence. There was no magic about the period of six months. It was named in order to get the units into something like a satisfactory condition. That was the best they could do. They could never get out of a Volunteer force raised on this basis as good a force as if the men were entirely Regulars, or were put through two years training by some other method. What they believed was that they would get something better than they had at the present time, and a force which would be adequate for home defence That was all they wanted. In the view of the Government the Amendment went far beyond the limits of their proposition, and laid down something which was quite inconsistent with it. For that reason he was unable to accept the Amendment.
VISCOUNT CASTLEREAGHsaid he believed it would be much better to have no limit to the expansion of our forces who would serve abroad The Secretary for War believed that men would come forward patriotically in case of necessity and offer their services. That was not a very satisfactory basis on which to make up the forces of the country. The Government ought not to be in the position of saying to a member of the Territorial Force, "Are you willing to leave this country and serve abroad, although when you joined the Territorial Force you were told that probably you would not be asked to servo abroad." If the soldier were a member of a unit and a great majority of that unit desired to serve abroad ho would perhaps against his own inclination be forced to go abroad with his comrades. With regard to the question of raids, the Territorial Force of 300,000 men would hardly be required to deal with a raid in which probably not more than 10,000 men would take part. The Government should have the power of obtaining such
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expansion as was embodied in the Amendment. He would not go so far as to specify units, but when a man joined the Territorial Force it should be possible for him to say whether he would serve abroad if necessary.
*MR. McCRAE:said the noble Lord the Member for Maidstone had referred to the absurdity of having a force of 300,000 to repel raids of 10,000. If that duty was the only one which the Territorial Army might discharge, the noble Lord's objection would be valid, but to his mind the Territorial Army, although essentially raised for homo defence as its primary object, bad always been under-stood to be a force to provide in time of stress the means of expansion for the first line. He would meet that objection by stating that if the latter duty was to be carried out as he thought it ought to be, it should be done on a voluntary basis having regard to the special circumstances of the case. That was where he entirely disagreed with the hon. Member who moved the Amendment. The hon. Member asked the men to come forward and give an undertaking to serve in any part of the world, without considering the merits of the special war on hand. The Amendment also went to the very root of the scheme of the Secretary for War, which he had always supported strenuously because it was in principle a two-line Army, whereas the plan of the hon. Member's Amendment would make it a three-line Army. He was sure that the hon. and gallant Member for Sheffield would agree that if there was one thing which the Volunteers wore opposed to more than another, it was the proposal of the late Secretary of State for War that there should be two classes of Volunteers. The Volunteers opposed that tooth and nail, irrespective of Party. The proposal of the Amendment that the Volunteers were to serve abroad was a frontal attack to secure that which the proposal of the late Secretary of State for War tried to bring about by devious flank movements—such as by medical examination in the notorious circulars. It was not that the Volunteers objected to medical examination in itself; it was that they were to be subjected to a more stringent medical examination that the men of the Line. The hon. Member, in moving his Amendment, had given

355
the Committee a rehash of the figures which the right hon. Member for Croydon had stated in one of his letters to The Times. They all regretted the absence of the right hon. Gentleman, who, however much they differed from him, thoroughly understood the question from his own point of view. Those figures were wholly fallacious. They were based on examination of the men in camp; but every commanding officer knew that a large proportion of the men in camp were young fellows, and, moreover, many were cast aside not because their physical standard was weak but because of bad teeth. Every one of the men so cast aside was quite physically capable of undergoing any strain in the field. He had urged on successive Secretaries for War that the Territorial Army—or call it what they liked—should be a purely volunteer Army. He believed that the right hon. Gentleman must depend on the Volunteers and Yeomanry trained as highly as possible for his second line for home defence; and that the Militia should go into the first line. Whenever this country was engaged in a war of which the people approved there would be no difficulty in obtaining Volunteers for service abroad to go to the front. By the scheme of the Secretary for War he would be able to have 300,000 men properly trained for the Territorial Army. Under the new conditions the great majority of the Auxiliary Forces would have every year fifteen days camp training, and with a little additional training they would be in a very efficient state to undertake service abroad. A great deal had been said about six months training after mobilisation, and hon. Gentlemen opposite had spoken as if the men were to have no preliminary training. He maintained that with that six months training in addition to their preliminary training they would be quite ready to go to the front. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Croydon had stated that there was a dearth of Volunteers ready to go to South Africa. That was not the case. Difficulties were placed in the way not only of units but of companies volunteering to go to the front. He spoke for the Lothians of Scotland, and he knew that out of 3,000 men only twenty men were allowed to volunteer, whereas the right hon. Gentleman said that only twenty had volun-
356
teered, which was a very different thing. If there was a war of which the country approved there would be no difficulty in getting Volunteers to go on active service abroad.
SIR HOWARD VINCENTsaid he had considerable sympathy with the Amendment so ably moved by the hon. Member for Black-pool; but he did not think the hon. Member had considered sufficiently the different conditions or service of the various branches of the Auxiliary forces. He did not think the hon. Member was right in mixing up the Volunteers, Yeomanry and Militia, all of whom wore on different bases. Nor did he agree with the hon. Gentleman that the Volunteers should be put in two classes. The hon. Member for East Edinburgh, who had had considerable experience with Volunteers, knew how unpopular such a plan as that would be. The Volunteers existed wholly and solely for home defence, and it would be very unwise to depart from that principle. Volunteers consisted in large measure of men in good civil employment, and there would be very great objection on the part of parents and guardians to their sons and wards, when they presented themselves for enrollment, being asked if they would volunteer for service abroad if desired. As to the physical condition of the Volunteers referred to by the hon. Member for Black-pool, at the time of the South African War when the Regular troops were medically examined 30 per cent. were found unfit for service abroad; and they did not find that there was a larger percentage of Volunteers unfit. He had always thought it most improper on the part of the late Secretary for War to endeavour to force on the Volunteer force medical examination. As a matter of fact many regiments were not so examined. The clear facts of the case as to physical fitness had never been clearly ascertained, and the circular was unconditionally withdrawn. It was in the highest degree desirable that the general staff should know accurately before hand the number of men they could rely upon for service over-sea, but that could not be done in this country where there was nothing but Volunteer service; and even in France and Germany, where there was conscription, the general staff could not at all times tell how many men they could

357
command for over-sea service. Only the other day in Germany, when men were asked for for the campaign in South-West Africa, that was found to be the case, and that opened the eyes of the German officers to the difficulties of a tropical campaign.
MR. WYNDHAMsaid the right hon. Gentleman seemed to think that by raising the principle of organising on two lines of defence he disposed of the Amendment. Anyone who had listened to the debate would see that they were discussing the matter in some what of a fog, because there wore two underlying unrealities. In the first place, the right hon. Gentleman did not rely on his two lines—his rule was going to have exceptions and pretty largo ones. The right hon. Gentleman had previously assured them that he would welcome the whole Militia regiments. The talk of two lines represented a principle in his mind and a great truth, but he did not want certain people to state whether they would fight abroad until the war came, and those people were those whom they used to call Volunteers and who would remain Volunteers. The second unreality was to state that the Yeomanry, Militia, and Volunteers were one and the same people when they were not. They wore drawn from persons pursuing totally different vocations. They took up the service with different objects, and some were prepared to undertake liability for foreign service while others were not. If these were the true facts of the situation why should not the military authorities take account of them and have their list of Yeomanry or Militia who were going to take foreign service distinct from those who were not.
*VISCOUNT MORPETH:wished to point out to the Secretary of State for War that we had more than 160,000 Regulars engaged in the late war in South Africa, and we should probably require in a future war very many more than 160,000 men. If he had men whom he could not order to proceed to the theatre of war, it very much diminished their value as soldiers. The hon. Member for East Edinburgh found fault with the Amendment because, he said, a man would not go to the war unless he approved of its merits. It was a most dangerous thing to say that
358
a soldier need only go to the theatre of war if he approved of the object of the war. How could the Government hope to carry on military administration if every individual member of the Forces was to have his own right of veto?
*MR. McCRAE: My words applied only to the Volunteers and not to the Imperial forces.
*VISCOUNT MORPETH:said the Territorial Army were members of His Majesty's Forces and if they were to have a right of veto military organisation would be reduced to the greatest chaos ever seen in any army in the world. He did not object to the Amendment be-cause it divided the Volunteers into two classes, those who were willing and those who were unwilling to go to the war. There might be a great number of reasons to prevent a man from going to the front; ho might decline to go, not because he was not a brave and patriotic man, but through other circumstances. He objected, however, to considering the susceptibilities of the men to the extent that they should be able to say that because they were unable to go none of the other men should go. That was pushing attention to the susceptibilities of these people a great deal too far, and he said the Volunteers would push too far, if after having been enlisted for service at home, they tried to prevent other men from serving their country abroad. He had put down the Amendment in a somewhat different form, namely, that the first territorial battalion should be raised and trained like the present Militia battalion with a view to its serving abroad in time of war. He had spoken the other day of the unfair choice which would be put before men when they were already in a regiment, if they were told to fall out, or take two steps to the front, if they were unwilling to serve abroad. That was a choice which it was most unfair to put upon men, and there were few who would have the courage to fall out under the circumstances. It would be better to put fairly and squarely to each man upon enlistment the question of whether he enlisted with the possibility of being ordered abroad, or whether he enlisted for homo service only. It savoured somewhat of trickery to enlist men into a regiment for home service, and then, after they had got them in that home service

359
regiment, to ask them to take two slops to the rear and fall out of the ranks if they would not volunteer for foreign service. At the time the Militia reserve existed men were called up and asked if they would take the obligation of serving abroad for an extra bounty of a pound a year and they found that all those men who were eligible willingly undertook that liability with a light heart and with little expectation that they would be called upon for service. In his experience, liability for foreign service weighed very little with the men, and he thought that if the matter was explained to them at the time of enlistment the Government would still be able to get a force which would be available for service in time of war.
SIR GILBERT PARKERsaid he could quite sympathise with the position taken up by the hon. Member for Central Sheffield, but it was impossible for the Secretary for War to take up the position that this was a purely voluntary organisation if, at the outbreak of war, ho could embody the whole of the Territorial Army. The right hon. Gentleman had therefore; admitted the reasonableness of the Amendment. He understood the right hon. Gentleman to say that he did not need the men, but he would need the Territorial Army for the purpose of expansion in time of war. Then why should ho object to a certain number of the men agreeing to become liable for foreign service in case of war? If war broke out the right hon. Gentleman would come to Parliament and demand the right to embody the whole of these men, and once embodiment was granted, every influence, Parliamentary and national, would be brought to bear upon them to make them go abroad. Why, then, should the Secretary for

AYES.

Acland-Hood,RtHn.SirAlex.F.

Burdett-Coutts, W.

Craik, Sir Henry

Anstruther-Gray. Major

Carlile, E. Hildred

Dalrymple, Viscount

Arkwright. John Stanhope

Castlereagh, Viscount

Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

Aubrey-Fletcher,Rt.Hon.Sir H.

Cave, George

Duncan. Robert(Lanark,Govan

Balcarres, Lord

Cavendish.Rt. Hon. VictorC.W

Faber, George Denison (York)

Balfour,RtHn.A.J.(CityLond.)

Chamberlain,RtHn.J.A.(Were.

Fell, Arthur

Banbury, Sir Frederick George

Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry

Gardner, Ernest (Berks, East)

Baring,Capt.Hn.G( Winchester

Coates, E. Feetham (Lewisham

Hardy, Laurence(Kent,Ashford

Berkett, Hon. Gervase

Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

Hervey.F.W.F.(BuryS.Edm'ds

Bignold, Sir Arthur

Courthope, G. Loyd

Hills, J. W.

Bowles, G. Stewart

Craig,Charles Curtis (Antrim,S.)

Houston, Robert Paterson

Boyle, Sir Edward

Craig, Captain James(Down,E.)

Kimber, Sir Henry

War object to their agreeing now to go abroad, and to go as units? The right hon. Gentleman had said that the Militia might go as units in time of war, and why should they make a difference between that force and the Yeomanry and Volunteers? The Militia and Yeomanry were going to have less training than they had had in the past; under the new conditions they would not be such well trained forces as under the old system. Under these circumstances ho found himself considerably embarrassed. He was not sure that the hon. and gallant Member for Central Sheffield was right, but at the same time he could not understand its being opposed by the Secretary of State as a matter of principle. The principle was raised by the late Secretary of State, and a good many Members then opposed it and throw doubts upon it—himself, among others. But the doubts thrown on the proposal of the late Secretary of State could not properly be thrown on the same proposal now, because the whole conditions were different. He did not know that he would object to the opposition of the Secretary of State if he could understand exactly the grounds for that opposition. But the right hon. Gentleman simply said he did not need the men. If he did not get his special contingents, might he not need them? If his special contingents were not successful would not the right hon. Gentleman like to have a considerable number of men who had agreed to go abroad in time of war, no matter where? He asked the right hon. Gentleman to make quite clear the reason for his opposition in order that he might come to a decision as to which way to vote.
Question put.
The Committee divided:—Ayes, 77; Noes, 280. (Division List No. 195).

King,SirHenrySeymour(Hull)

Parker. Sir Gilbert (Gravesend)

Thornton, Percy M.

Lane-Fox. G.R.

Pease, Herbert Pike(Darlington

Valentia, Viscount

Lee Arthur H. (Hants., Fareham

Randles, Sir John Scurrah

Vincent, Col. Sir C. E. Howard

Liddell, Henry

Rawlinson.JohnFrederickPeel

Walker,Col.W. H.( Lancashire)

Lock wood. Rt.Hn. Lt, Col. A. R.

Roberts, S.(Sheffield, Ecclesall)

Walrond, hon. Lion I

Long, Col.Charles W. (Evesham)

Rutherford, John (Lancashire)

Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid.)

Long,Rt.Hn.Walter(Dublin,S.)

Salter, Arthur Clavell

Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.)

Lonsdale, John Brownlee

Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm

Lowe, Sir Francis William

Sheffield, SirBerkeleyGeorgeD.

Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-

Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred

Sloan, Thomas Henry

Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

Mason, James F. (Windsor)

Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)

Younger, George

Middlemore,JohnThrogmorton

Starkey, John R.

Mildmay, Francis Bingham

Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

Tellers for the Ayes — Mr. Ashley and Viscount Morpeth.

Muntz, Sir Philip A.

Talbot.Rt.Hn.J.G.(Oxfd'Univ.

Nicholson, Wm.G.(Petersfield)

Thomson,W.Mitchell -(Lanark)

NOES.

Acland, Francis Dyke

Cleland, J. W.

Hall, Frederick

Adkins, W. Ryland D.

Clough, William

Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Lewis

Agnew, George William

Clynes, J. R.

Hardy, George A. (Suffolk)

Ainsworth, John Stirling

Coats,SirT.Glen( Rentrew,V, )

Harmsworth, Cecil B. (Wore'r)

Alden, Percy

Collins, Stephen (Lambeth)

Hart-Davies. T.

Allen,A.Acland(Christchurch)

Collins,SirWm.J.(S.Pancras,W.

Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale)

Armstrong, W. C. Heaton

Corbett.C H.(Sussex,E.Crinst'd

Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth)

Ashton, Thomas Gair

Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.

Hazel, Dr. A. E.

Asquith,Rt.Hn.Herbert Henry

Cory, Clifford John

Hedges, A. Paget

Astbury, John Meir

Cotton, Sir H. J. S.

Helmsley. Viscount

Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth)

Cowan, W. H.

Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

Baker,JosephA. (Finsbury,E.)

Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth)

Henderson, J M.(Aberdeen, W.)

Balfour, Robert (Lanark)

Cremer, William Randal

Henry, Charles S.

Baring,Godfrey(Isle of Wight)

Crombie, John William

Herbert, Colonel Ivor(Mon.,S.)

Barker, John

Crooks, William

Herbert, T. Arnold (Wycombe)

Barlow,JohnEmmott(Somerset

Crosfield, A. H.

Higham, John Sharp

Barlow, Percy (Bedford)

Davies,M.Vaughan-(Cardigan

Hobart, Sir Robert

Barnes, G. N.

Davies, Timothy (Fulham)

Hobhouse, Charles E. H.

Barry, Redmond J.(Tyrone, N.)

Dewar, Arthur (Edinburgh, S.)

Holland, Sir William Henry

Beauchamp. E.

Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh.

Holt, Richard Durning

Beck, A. Cecil

Dickinson,W.H.(St. Pancras,N.

Horniman, Emslie John

Bell. Richard

Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.

Horridge, Thomas Gardner

Bellairs, Carlyon

Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

Howard, Hon. Geoffrey

Benn,SirJ. Williams( Devonp'rt

Dobson. Thomas W.

Hudson. Walter

Benn,W.(Tow'rHamlets,S.Geo.

Duncan, C.(Barrow-in-Furness

Hyde, Clarendon

Bennett, E. N.

Dunne,Major EMartin( Walsall)

Illingworth, Percy II.;

Bertram, Julius

Edwards, Clement. (Denbigh)

Jackson, R. S.

Bethell,SirJ. H.(Essex,Romf'rd

Edwards, Frank (Radnor)

Jacoby, Sir James Alfred

Bethell, T. R. (Essex, Maldon)

Elibank, Master of

Jardine, Sir J.

Billson, Alfred

Ellis, Rt. Hon. John Edward

Johnson. W. (Nuneaton)

Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine

Erskine, David C.

Jones,SirD.Brynmor(Swansea)

Black, Arthur W.

Essex, R. W.

Jones, Leif (Appleby)

Boulton, A. C. F.

Esslemont, George Birnie

Jones, William (Carnarvonshire

Bowerman, (C.W.

Evans, Samuel T.

Jowett, F. W.

Brace, William

Everett, R. Lacey

Kearley, Hudson E.

Bramsdon, T. A.

Faber, G. H. (Boston)

Kekewich, Sir George

Branch, James

Fenwick, Charles

Kincaid-Smith, Captain

Brocklehurst, W, B.

Ferguson, R. C. Munro

Kitson, Rt. Hon. Sir James

Brodie. H. C.

Findlay, Alexander

Laidlaw, Robert

Brooke, Stopford

Foster, Rt. Hon. Sir Walter

Lambert, George

Brunner.J.F. L.(Lanes.,Lergh)

Fuller, John Michael F.

Lamont, Norman

Bryce. J. Annan

Gill, A. H.

Layland-Barratt, Francis

Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn

Gladstone, Rt.Hn. HerbertJohn

Lea,HughCecil(St.Pancras,E.)

Burns, Rt. Hon. John

Glover, Thomas

Lewis, John Herbert

Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas

Goddard, Daniel Ford

Lough, Thomas

Buxton,Rt. Hn.SydneyCharles

Gooch, George Peabody

Luttrell, Hugh Fownes

Byles, William Pollard

Grant, Corrie

Lyell, Charles Henry

Cairns, Thomas

Greenwood. G. (Peterborough)

Lynch, H. B.

Cameron, Robert

Greenwood, Hamar (York)

Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester)

Carr-Gomm, H. W.

Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward

Macdonald, J.M.(FalkirkB'ghs

Cawley, Sir Frederick

Guest. Hon. Ivor Churchill

Mackarness, Frederic C.

Chance, Frederick William

Gulland, John W.

Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.

Cheetham. John Frederick

(Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

Macpherson, J. T.

Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R.

Haldane, Rt. hon. Richard B.

M'Callum, John M.

362

363

M'Crae, George

Rainy, A. Rolland

Taylor. Theodore C. (Radcliffe)

M'Kenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald

Raphael, Herbert H.

Tennant. Sir Edward(Salisbury)

M'Laren, H. D. (Stafford, W.)

Rea, Russell (Gloucester)

Tennant, H. J. (Berwickshire)

M'Micking, Major G.

Rea, Walter Russell (Scarboro

Thomas, Sir A.(Glamorgan, E.)

Maddison, Frederick

Rees, J. D.

Thomas,David Alfred (Merthyr)

Mullet, Charles E.

Renton, Major Leslie

Thompson, J.W.H.(Somerset, E

Manfield. Harry (Northants)

Richards,Thomas (W.Monm'th

Tomkinson, James

Mansfield, H. Rendall (Lincoln

Richards, T.F.(Wolverhampt'n

Torrance, Sir A. M,

Markham, Arthur Basil

Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)

Toulmin, George

Marks,G.Croydon(Launceston)

Roberts, John H. (Denbighs)

Trevelyan. Charles Philips

Marnham, F. J.

Robertson.Rt.Hn. E. (Dundee)

Verney, F. W.

Massie, J.

Robertson,SirG.Scott( Bradford

Vivian. Henry

Menzies, Walter

Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside)

Walton. Sir John L. (Leeds, S.)

Micklem, Nathaniel

Robson, Sir William Snowdon

Ward, John (Stoke upon Trent)

Molteno. Percy Alport

Rogers, F. E. Newman

Ward,W.Dudley (Southampton

Mond. A.

Rowlands, J.

Wardle, George J.

Money, L. G. Chiozza

Runciman, Walter

Waring, Walter

Morgan, G. Hay (Cornwall)

Russell. T. W.

Wason, Eugene(Clackmannan)

Morrell, Philip

Rutherford, V. H (Brentford)

Wason, John Cathcart(Orkney)

Murray. James

Samuel, Herbert L.(Cleveland)

Watt, Henry A.

Napier, T. B.

Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel)

Whitbread. Howard

Newness, F. (Notts, Bassetlaw)

Schwann, C. Duncan (Hyde)

White, George (Norfolk)

Nicholls, George

Schwann,Sir C.E.(Manchester)

White, J. D). (Dumbartonshire)

Nicholson,CharlesN.(Doncast'r

Seaverns, J. H.

White, Luke (York, E.R.)

Norton, Capt. Cecil William

Seddon, J.

Whitehead. Rowland

Nussey, Thomas Willans

Seely, Major J. B.

Whitley, John Henry (Halifax)

Nuttall, Harry

Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)

Whittaker, Sir Thomas Palmer

O'Grady, J.

Shipman, Dr. John G.

Wiles, Thomas

Parker, James (Halifax)

Silcock, Thomas Ball

Williams, J. (Glamorgan)

Partington, Oswald

Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie

Williams. Osmond (Merioneth)

Pearce, Robert (Staffs. Leek)

Soames, Arthur Wellesley

Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

Pearce, William (Limehouse)

Spicer, Sir Albert

Wills, Arthur Walters

Philipps,J.Wynford(Pembroke

Stanger, H. Y.

Wilson, P. W. (St. Pancras, S.)

Philipps, Owen C. (Pembroke)

Stanley, Hn.A. Lyulph (Chesh.)

Wilson. W. T. (Westhoughton)

Pickersgill, Edward Hare

Steadman, W. C.

Winfrey. R.

Pirie, Duncan V.

Stewart, Halley (Greenock)

Wood, T. M'Kinnon

Pollard. Dr.

Stewart-Smith, D. (Kendal)

Price, C.E. (Edinb'gh,Central)

Strachey, Sir Edward

TELLERS FOR THE NOES—

Price, Robert John( Norfolk, E.)

Straus, B. S. (Mile End)

Mr. Whiteley and Mr. J. A. Pease.

Priestley, W.E.B.(Bradford, E.)

Strauss, E. A. (Abingdon)

Radford, G. H.

Summerbell, T.

THE CHAIRMAN:ruled out of order Amendments standing in the names of the hon. Member for Ludlow and of the noble Lord the Member for South Birmingham.
*Viscount MORPETHsaid his Amendment applied to the Territorial Army and the use of the ballot.
The CHAIRMANsaid the clause applied to the number of the force, and the Amendment arose on another clause.
*VISCOUNT MORPETHsaid his point was that the number of the Territorial Force depended on the application of the ballot to the Territorial Force.
THE CHAIRMANsaid he know that, but this was a different clause dealing with the number of the force. The Amendment in the name of the hon. and
364
gallant gentleman the Member for Sheffield was also out of order. It was not in its right place.
SIR HOWARD VINCENTasked when he should be able to move the Amendment if it was not in its right place.
The CHAIRMANsaid he was afraid that the hon. and gallant Gentleman should have moved it on Clause 2 as regarded part of the question with which it dealt, or it should be moved on Clause 6.
SIR HOWARD VINCENTsaid he had not an opportunity of moving it on the previous occasion owing to the application of the closure.
The CHAIRMANsaid ho was perfectly aware of that, but it did not affect the point of order.
Question put, "That the clause stand part of the Bill."

AYES.

Acland, Francis Dyke

Dewar, Arthur (Edinburgh, S.)

Lamont, Norman

Adkins, W. Ryland D).

Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh.

Layland-Barratt, Francis

Agnew, George William

Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

Lewis, John Herbert

Ainsworth, John Stirling

Dobson, Thomas W.

Lough, Thomas

Alden, Percy

Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness)

Luttrell, Hugh Fownes

Armstrong, W. C. Heaton

Dunn,MajorE.Martin (Walsall)

Lyell, Charles Henry

Ashton, Thomas Gair

Edwards, Clement (Denbigh)

Lynch, H. B.

Asquith,Rt.Hn. Herbert Henry

Edwards, Frank (Radnor)

Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester)

Astbury, John Meir

Elibank, Master of

Macdonald,J.M.(Falkirk B'ghs

Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth)

Ellis, Rt. Hon. John Edward

Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.

Baker, Joseph A. (Finsbury,E.)

Erskine, David C.

M'Callum, John M.

Balfour, Robert (Lanark)

Essex, R. W.

M'Crae, George

Baring,Godfrey(Isle of Wight)

Esslemont, George Birnie

M'Kenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald

Barker, John

Evans, Samuel T.

M'Laren, Sir C. B. (Leicester)

Barlow, JohnEmmott (Somerset)

Eve, Harry Trelawney

M'Laren, H. D. (Stafford, W.)

Barlow, Percy (Bedford)

Everett, R. Lacey

M'Micking, Major G.

Barnes, G. N.

Faber, G. H. (Boston)

Maddison, Frederick

Barry, Redmond J.(Tyrone,N.)

Fen wick, Charles

Mallet, Charles E.

Beauchamp, E.

Ferguson, R. C. Munro

Manfield, Harry (Northants)

Beck, A. Cecil

Findlay. Alexander

Mansfield,H. Rendall (Lincoln)

Bell. Richard

Foster, Rt. Hon. Sir Walter

Markham, Arthur Basil

Bellairs, Carylon

Fuller, John Michael F.

Marks,G.Croydon (Launceston)

Benn, W. (To w'rHamlets, S.Geo.

Gardner,Col.Alan(Hereford, S.)

Marnham, F. J.

Bennett, E. N.

Gill, A. H.

Massie, J.

Bertram. Julius

Gladstone,Rt.Hn.Herbert John

Menzies, Walter

Bethell,Sir J. H.(EssexRomford

Glover, Thomas

Micklem, Nathaniel

Bethell, T. R. (Essex, Maldon)

Goddard, Daniel Ford

Molteno, Percy Alport

Billson, Alfred

Gooch, George Peabody

Mond, A.

Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine

Greenwood, G. (Peterborough)

Morgan, G. Hay (Cornwall)

Black, Arthur W.

Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill

Morley, Rt. Hon. John

Boulton, A. C. F.

Greenwood, Hamar (York)

Morrell, Philip

Brace, William

Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward

Murray, James

Bramsdon, T. A.

Gulland, John W.

Napier, T. B.

Branch, James

Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

Newnes,F.(Notts,Bassetlaw)

Brocklehurst, W. B.

Haldane, Rt. Hon. Richard B.

Nicholls, George

Brodie, H. C.

Hall, Frederick

Nicholson,CharlesN.(Doncast'r

Brooke, Stopford

Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Lewis

Norton,Capt.Cecil William

Brunner,J.F.L.(Lanes., Leigh)

Hardy, George A. (Suffolk)

Nussey Thomas Willans

Bryce, J. Annan

Harmsworth, Cecil B. (Wore'r)

Nuttall, Harry

Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn

Hart-Davies, T.

Parker, James (Halifax)

Burns, Rt. Hon. John

Harvey. A. G. C. (Rochdale)

Partington, Oswald

Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas

Hazel, Dr. A. E.

Pearce,Robert (Staffs. Leek)

Buxton,Rt.Hn.Sydney Charles

Hedges, A. Paget

Pearce, William (Limehouse)

Byles, William Pollard

Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

Philipps,J.Wynford (Pembroke

Cairns, Thomas

Henderson,.J.M.(Aberdeen, W.)

Philipps, Owen C. (Pembroke)

Cameron, Robert

Henry, Charles S.

Pickersgill, Edward Hare

Carr-Gomm, H. W.

Herbert,Colonel Ivor (Mon., S.)

Pirie, Duncan V.

Cawley, Sir Frederick

Herbert, T. Arnold (Wycombe)

Pollard, Dr.

Chance, Frederick William

Higham, John Sharp

Price, C.E.(Edinb'gh,Central)

Cheetham, John Frederick

Hobart, Sir Robert

Priestley,W.E.B.(Bradford, E.)

Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R.

Hobhouse, Charles E. H.

Radford, G. H.

Cleland, J. W.

Holt, Richard Durning

Rainy, A. Rolland

Clough, William

Horniman, Emslie John

Raphael, Herbert H.

Clynes. J. R.

Horridge, Thomas Gardner

Rea, Russell (Gloucester)

Coats,Sir T.Glen (Renfrew,W.)

Howard, Hon. Geoffrey

Rea, WalterRussell (Scarboro')

Collins, Stephen (Lambeth)

Hudson, Walter

Rees, J. D.

Collins,SirWm.J.(S.PancrasW.

Hyde, Clarendon

Renton, Major Leslie

Corbett,C.H.(Sussex,E.Grinst'd

Illingworth, Percy H.

Richards,Thomas(W.Monm'th)

Cornwill. Sir Edwin A.

Jackson, R. S.

Richards.T.F.(Wolverhampt'n)

Cory, Clifford John

Johnson, W. (Nuneaton)

Roberts,CharlesH.(Lincoln)

Cotton, Sir. H. J. S.

Jones, Leif (Appleby)

Roberts, JohnH. (Denbighs)

Cowan, W. H.

Jones,William(Carnarvonshire)

Robertson,Rt,Hn.E.(Dundee)

Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth)

Kearley, Hudson E.

Robertson,SirG.Scott (Bradf'rd

Cremer, William Randal

Kekewich, Sir George

Robertson,J.M. (Tyneside)

Crombie, John William

Kitson, Rt. Hon. Sir James

Robson, Sir William Snowdon

Crooks, William

Laid law, Robert

Rogers, F. E. Newman

Davies, Timothy (Fulham)

Lambert, George

Rowlands. J.

The Committee divided:—Ayes, 259; Noes, 78. (Division List No. 196.)

Runciman, Walter

Straus, B. S. (Mile End)

Wason,JohnCathcart(Orkney)

Russell, T.W.

Strauss, E A. (Abingdon)

Watt, Henry A.

Rutherford,V.H.(Brentford)

Summerbell, T.

White,George(Norfolk)

Samuel, Herbert L.(Cleveland)

Taylor,TheodoreC. (Radcliffe)

White.J.D.(Dumbartonshire)

Samuel,S.M.(Whitechapel)

Tennant,Sir Edward)(Salisbury

White, Luke (York, E.R.)

Schwann,C.Duncan(Hyde)

Tennant,H.J.( Berwickshire)

Whitehead, Rowland

Schwann,Sir C. E.(Manchester)

Thomas,SirA.(Glamorgan,E.)

Whitley,JohnHenry(Halifax)

Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone,W.)

Thomas,DavidAlfred(Merthyr

Whittaker, SirThomas Palmer

Sears, J. E.

Thompson,J.W.H.(Somerset,E

Wiles, Thomas

Seely, Major J. B.

Tomkinson, James

Williams, J. (Glamorgan)

Shaw, Charles Edw.(Stafford)

Torrance, Sir A. M.

Williams. Osmond(Merioneth)

Shipman, Dr. John G.

Toulmin, George

Wills, Arthur Walters

Silcock, Thomas Ball

Trevelyan, Charles Philips

Wilson, P. W. (St. Pancras, S.)

Smeaton,Donald Mackenzie

Vivian, Henry

Wilson, W.T.(Westhoughton)

Spicer, Sir Albert

Walton,SirJohnL.(Leeds,S.)

Winfrey, R.

Stanger, H. Y.

Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

Wood, T. M'Kinnon

Stanley,Nn.A.Lyulph(Chesh )

Ward,John(Stoke-upon-Trent

TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr.Whiteley and Mr. J. A. Pease

Steadman, W. C.

Ward,W.Dudley(Southampton

Stewart, Halley (Greenock)

Wardle, George J.

Stewart-Smith, D. (Kendal)

Waring, Walter

Strachey, Sir Edward

Wason,Eugene(Clackmannan

NOES.

Acland-Hood,RtHn.SirAlex.F

Gibbs,G.A.(Bristol,West)

Randles,Sir John Scurrah

Arkwright, John Stanhope

Hardy,Laurence(Kent,Ashfrd

Rawlinson.JohnFrederickPeel

Ashley, W. W.

Helmsley, Viscount

Roberts.S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall)

Aubrey-Fletcher,Rt Hn. Sir H.

Hervey,FW.F.(BurySt.Edm'ds

Salter, Arthur Clavell

Balcarres, Lord

Hills, J. W.

Seddon, J.

Balfour,Rt. Hn.AJ.(City Lond.

Houston, Robert Paterson

Sheffield,SirBerkeleyGeorgeD.

Banbury,SirFrederickGeorge

Jowett, F. W.

Sloan, Thomas Henry

Baring,Capt.Hn.G(Winchester)

Kimber, Sir Henry

Starkey, John R

Beckett, Hon.Gervase

King.SirHenrySeymour(Hull)

Talbot, Lord E.(Chichester)

Bignold. Sir Arthur

Lane-Fox, G.R,

Talbot,Rt.Hn.J.G.(Oxf'dUniv.

Boyle, Sir Edward

Lee, ArthurH( Hants.,Fareham)

Thomson, W.Mitchell-(Lanark

Carlile, E. Hildred

Liddell, Henry

Thornton, Percy M.

Cave, George

Lockwood,Rt.Hn.Lt.-Col.A.R.

Valentia, Viscount

Cavendish,Rt. Hn.Victor C.W.

Long, Rt.Hn. Walter( Dublin.S.

Vincent, Col. Sir C. E. Howard

Chamberlain.Rt Hn.J. A.( Wore.

Lonsdale, John Brownlee

Walker,Col. W. H.( Lancashire)

Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry

Lowe, Sir Francis William

Walrond. Hon. Lionel

Coates,E.Feetham(Lewisham)

Lyttelton, Rt, Hon. Alfred

Warde,Col.C.E.(Kent,Mid)

Cochrane,Hon.Tho.,.H.A. E.

Macpherson. J. T.

Williams, Col.R.(Dorset, W.

Courthope, G. Loyd

Mason, James F. (Windsor)

Willoughby de Eresby Lord

Craig,CharlesCurtis(Antrim. S.)

Middlemore,John Throgmorton

Wortley,Rt.Hon.C.B.Stuart-

Craig,Captain James( Down, E.)

Mildmay, Francis Bingham

Wyndham. Rt, Hon.George

Craik, Sir Henry

Morpeth, Viscount

Younger, George

Dalrymple, Viscount

Muntz, Sir Philip A.

Tellers for. the Noes—vis-

Douglas,Rt.Hon.A.Akers-

Nicholson. Wm. G. (Petersfield

count Castlereagh and Mr.

Duncan,Robert(Lanark,Govan

O'Grady, J.

Fell.

Faber, George Denison (York)

Parker,SirGilbert(Gravesend)

Fardell, Sir T. George

Pease, Herbert Pike( Darlington

Gardner, Ernest (Berks, East)

Percy, Earl

Clause 6:
MR. WYNDHAM:moved an Amendment to insert in the first sub-section of the clause words providing, first, that when 50 per cent. of all ranks serving in any part of the Territorial Force accept before embodiment either or both of the liabilities set out in Clause 12 (a and b) (area of service of Territorial Force), that part shall, in respect of government, discipline and pay, be under the orders of the general officer commanding the district in which they are trained. Under Clause 12 the right hon. Gentleman invited and contemplated offers from parts
368
of the men of the Territorial Force to subject themselves to the liability—
"(a) To serve in any place outside the United Kingdom, or (b) to be called out for actual service for purposes of defence at such places in the United Kingdom as may be specified in their agreement, whether the Territorial Force is embodied or not."
The Secretary of State for War contemplated in the Bill and in his speeches certain exceptions from what he had called the organisation upon two lines. He was not seeking to traverse or undermine that organisation. He thought it was a mistake, but the right hon. Gentleman was having his own way. Taking

369
the position as it stood there were to be some exceptions. Section 11 made provision to enable men in the Territorial Force to enlist in the Special Reserve, but he did not think it was contemplated that the Volunteers should enlist in the Special Reserve. What was contemplated was that those who were now serving in the Militia, should, in certain cases, undertake this obligation, which was tantamount to the Militia undertaking an obligation for over-sea service. He put a Question the other day as to whether it would be possible for some 200 or 300 men and half their officers to enlist in a body in the Special Reserve. The right hon. Gentleman replied that that would not be impossible, in fact he said he would welcome it. It was, therefore, clear from the Bill as it stood that a whole battalion of Militia could come out of the second line and occupy the same position as the Militia now occupied, which he would call that of a support to the first line. That exception to the rule did not end with the Militia. The right hon. Gentleman was expecting that the Yeomanry cavalry would provide a certain proportion of men to act with the Regulars before the embodiment contemplated in the Bill. Again, the right hon. Gentleman was contemplating and even asking for a considerable draft from the second line. It was also contemplated that the Volunteer artillery would man the fortresses in such places as the Mersey. He contended that all the men embraced in those exceptions ought to be under the command of the general officer commanding the district in which they were trained. They would have confusion worse confounded if the men who were exceptions from the rule, who wore really an integral part of the first line, were not in the future placed under the command of the man who was responsible for mobilising the first line. There were to be executive and administrative generals. He contended that the plan must break down unless those who subjected themselves to this liability were under the executive command and administrative control of the general officer in command of the district in which they were trained. Men could not be trained and inspected by one set of officers, and then suddenly, when the crisis came, be transferred to the control of another set of officers. It was notorious, for instance, that different
370
generals took different views of the art of manoeuvring. It was important, therefore, from the military point of view, that the general to use the men should be the general who trained them. It was also essential, from the administrative point of view, that the horsing and provisioning of these men should be under the administration of those who were to conduct the warlike operations, and not-under the administration of the County Associations.
He begged to move.
Amendment proposed—
"In page 6, line 26, at the end, to insert the words, '(a) Provided that when fifty per cent. of all ranks serving in any part of the Territorial Force accept before embodiment either or both of the liabilities hereinafter enacted in section twelve (two) (a) and (b) that part shall in respect of government and discipline be under the orders of the general officer commanding the district in which it is trained, and'"—(Mr. Wyndham.)
Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."
*MR. HALDANE:said that under Clause 12 of the Bill to which this Amendment made reference any part of the Territorial Force might make an offer either to serve outside the United Kingdom or to be allotted for a particular place of defence in the United Kingdom, and, on such offer being accepted, they were liable to the extent of the offer. The right hon. Gentleman proposed that when 50 per cent. of all ranks serving in any part of the Territorial Force accepted the liabilities indicated in Clause 12, the whole of that body was to go over to the control of the general officer commanding the district in which it was trained. The right hon. Gentleman had said that he, the Secretary for War himself, made exceptions to keeping distinct the two lines—that there were units or groups of men who belonged in part to the one and in part to the other. He had said and must say that in order to get an analogy. The men with whom it was proposed to deal were to be in respect of government and discipline under the general officer commanding the district, and for other purposes to be part of the Territorial Second Line Force. Was there any analogy between that and anything else in the plan? He would take the Militia. He would be very glad to see a Militia

371
unit going over into one of those training battalions, and the men enlisting in one of these training battalions, and the officers moving up into the first line, as it were. That might very well be, and then that Militia unit would belong to the Regular line. He would take the case of the Yeomanry Cavalry. The Yeomanry Cavalry were to furnish some fourteen squadrons, and those squadrons were to be under liability to serve abroad and to form divisional cavalry for the Regular expeditionary force. What was their position? They were supernumerary to the regiments from which they came. They were not to fill two rôles. They, again, belonged for all purposes to the Regular Forces. Their engagement was one that took them over to the Regular side. The same thing occurred in the Artillery. As regarded the training brigades of the Artillery, the men who were trained there would not belong to the Territorial Force, but to the Regulars; they would train for service with the Regular Artillery. Then there was the Army Service Corps. The War Office proposed to train a certain number of men supernumerarily to their own units of the Territorial Force, but they would take engagements to serve with the Regulars, and to the Regulars they would go. In other words, the principle) throughout was not to have any men put down to fulfil two functions. One of the great curses of the existing organisation was that men were labelled for two functions. Under Clause 12 the Government only said that if a unit or man remaining in the Territorial Force engaged to serve abroad or for some particular purpose the Government would accept the engagement; but the service should be rendered in the capacity of a part of the Territorial Force, which only in special circumstances went abroad. They were not taking part of the Territorial Force and assigning it to the first line. The Government proposed to keep to simplicity. The right hon. Gentleman's proposal would give a Territorial Force with a line of division running through it—part of it commanded and trained by one set of authorities and part of it commanded and trained by another. The Territorial Force would be broken up; the second line would be cut into two parts, one part being put under one set of conditions and another under a differ-
372
ent set of conditions. It was far simpler and plainer when they had a second line —when they had a Territorial Force—to stick to it and maintain a uniform training. There was no analogy between the part of the Territorial Force which took a special engagement under Clause 12 and the men of the Army Service Corps who volunteered supernumerarily to their own unit to go, on mobilisation, with the Regulars. It would be opposed to the whole principle of the Bill if he accepted the right hon. Gentleman's Amendment.
MR. WYNDHAMsaid that even now he did not understand what the right hon. Gentleman's plan was, and it was evident that the right hon. Gentleman did not understand the Amendment. They had heard for the first time that a portion of the Territorial Force was to be trained as supernumerary to the Regulars and put under totally now commanders. If he had been aware of that, his observations would have been more vehement on the Second Reading of the Bill. How wore the supernumeraries to be taken away under Clause 12, or was there any other clause in the Bill by which they could be?
MR. HALDANE: Under Tart 3 of the Bill.
MR. WYNDHAMasked if the Yeomanry were to have the power to take an obligation of over-sea service? At any rate he was persuaded that that could not be carried out if it involved that they were to be trained in time of peace, and then in time of war be drafted to another establishment under different commanders. There were four squadrons in a regiment, but there was to be a supernumerary squadron of 110 men liable to over-sea service. But it would be quite impossible to train live Squadrons of Yeomanry or a corps of artillery in time of peace and take one of them away in time of war. What ho suggested was that the right hon. Gentleman should take men from the best regiments, and that that quota should belong in time of peace to the regiment to which they would belong in time of war.
MR. HALDANEsaid that the fallacy of the right hon. Member for Dover's

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scheme was that all those supernumeraries of which he spoke on the Second Reading would be enlisted under Part 3 of the Bill. When they wore dealing with Clause 12 they were dealing with the Territorial Army.
MR. GUESTsaid that the proposal of the right hon. Member for Dover seemed to him to make confusion worse confounded. The point of the right hon. Gentleman was whether the anomaly should exist in time of peace or in time of war. The scheme of the right hon. Member for Dover was that it should exist in time of peace, whereas that of the Secretary for War was that it should exist in time of war. If he had to make the choice he would prefer that of the Secretary for War, for after all war was the exception, and peace the general rule. Moreover, however careful our preparation for war might be, a certain amount of confusion and improvisation must take place, and he personally would prefer that the organisation should work harmoniously in time of peace rather than in time of war. The right hon. Member for Dover had said that if a certain part of a regiment volunteered for service in time of war, then that part of the Territorial Army would be put under the control and command for the first time of other than their own officers. He did not know exactly what value the Secretary for War attached to those supernumerary troops. He thought the simplicity would be greater if the scheme could be got rid of altogether. The right hon. Gentleman evaded all the difficulties he had to encounter in regularising the Militia. It was very likely that in time of war whole units would transfer themselves bodily from the Territorial to the Regular Army. Why did not the right hon. Gentleman apply the same principle to the Yeomanry? If they trained the Yeomanry in five squadrons he did not know where they could get the men under the conditions that one squadron was to serve abroad as supernumeraries, and if they did get the men, that squadron would be likely to jeopardise the success of the regiment to which it was attached. If the right hon. Gentleman said fourteen squadrons would be required in time of war, let them ear- mark certain Yeomanry regiments in time of peace for the Regular Forces
374
instead of only one squadron from each regiment.
MR. A. J. BALFOURsaid that there might be a distinction between the plan of the hon. Gentleman and that of the fight hon. Member for Dover; but the hon. Member came far nearer to supporting that of the right hon. Member for Dover than that of the Secretary of State for War. If there was any part of the force, whether Volunteers or Regulars, that belonged to the so-called first line, they should be trained with the first line and with first line officers. Surely they might drop all discussion about first line and second line; the distinction was purely arbitrary. The right hon. Gentleman talked of the first line and the second with bridges between, but nobody was intended to go over the bridges, and that helped them in no way. In fact the right hon. Gentleman had found that with our complex state of society he could not manage his Regular Army without assistance from forces which were not Regular. And that showed that there was no real distinction between the first line and the second. He thought that the discussion might be much clearer if they wore to abandon a terminology which was inappropriate to the scheme of the right hon. Gentleman. They should recognise that they could not make it a better plan by calling it simple when it was not simple If they insisted on two kinds of forces, Regulars and Volunteers, then they came across the very organisation of the right hon. Gentleman, who told them that they could not have an expeditionary force to leave our shores without getting some assistance from that, portion of our forces called the second line. The only question was whether they should have that confusing perplexity, which was inherent in any system of voluntary service, in time of peace or in time of war. The hon. Member for Cardiff would, on reflection, see that his theory that confusion should arise rather in time of war than in time of peace would hardly work out satisfactorily. If simplicity was necessary it would, he thought, be better to suffer inconvenience in time of peace, and let the thing work smoothly in the more trying and important time of war.
MR. HALDANEsaid the right hon. Gentleman was going back to the old

375
phrases, the Regular Army and the forces behind it, organised in three or four groups; but he challenged him to show any way in which an organisation could be made out of that which would be free from confusion. If they did that they would find themselves trying to label people for two functions. That was the very vice they had to meet. The Militia wore labelled for drafts and at the same time for service as units, and the very essence of the present scheme was to get rid of that. And in order to get rid of that they had these supernumeraries and these bridges, to keep to the old phrase, over which the supernumeraries might come and become part of the Regular Army. The Government had made it perfectly clear in all their plans for using supernumeraries that they should come across the bridge and enlist under Part III. of the Bill, and become part of the Regular Army. If the right hon. Gentleman would look at Clause XI, he would see that it was provided that —
"If a man of the Territorial Force enlists into the Army Reserve without being discharged from the Territorial Force, the terms and conditions of his service whilst he remains in the Army Reserve shall be those applicable to him as a man belonging to the Army Reserve, and not those applicable to him as a man of the Territorial Force."
In other words, if a man went across the bridge he crossed for all purposes. The way in which it was proposed to get the Yeomanry contingent which was to form a division of cavalry, was by troops, if possible, from each of the regiments, and this troop from each regiment would be supernumeraries to the establishment of the regiments.
MR. GUEST: Is there a different term of service?
MR. HALDANE: Oh, quite different.
SIR HOWARD VINCENT: Then you will have two classes in the same regiment?
MR. HALDANE: Not in the same regiment. They were supernumeraries to the regiment; that was the whole point.
SIR HOWARD VINCENTasked whether the supernumeraries and the others would train together or would one
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class be, say, at Dover and the other at York.
MR. HALDANEsaid that a good deal of their training would be separate from each other and some together. There was no difficulty of any kind about that. He had explained more than once that it was proposed to give a special training to these supernumeraries. They would be enlisted under Part III. of the Bill, they would be paid with the pay of the Regulars when they were out, and they would be in exactly the same position as the men in the third battalions of Militia, except that they would be trained as cavalry. Being enlisted under Part III. they would belong to the Regular side, and would have a special training to enable them to fulfil their functions. It would be very convenient to have these troops training during their annual training with the regiments from which they came. Surely there was all the difference in the world between supernumeraries enlisted under Part III. and belonging to the Regular side, and what the right hon. Gentleman opposite proposed to create. It was because they had in their minds the principle of getting rid of the old state of things under which one man was labelled for two functions that they objected to the plan of the right hon. Gentleman.
COLONEL R. WILLIAMSsaid that what would really happen would be that some commanding officers of Yeomanry would find an extra troop put in for the purposes of drill.
MR. HALDANEsaid this arrangement was the result of a great deal of negotiation with the Yeomanry Commanders and the Director of Military Training, and in the opinion of exports it was the simplest system.
COLONEL R. WILLIAMSsaid he did not understand the exact part these men would bear. It now appeared that the extra squadrons would be attached to the Yeomanry, but they would belong to the first line and not the second. As he understood the new second line brigades, they were to be organised in divisions for the command of which there were to be fourteen divisional generals. A general commanding one of these territorial brigades might be senior to the general commanding the coast defences in

377
the part of the country to which the brigade was sent. He would probably know nothing about that part of the country, and would supersede the man who had made all the plans and knew all about the defences. He thought there would be great risk of confusion, and he hoped that, before the final distribution of the Territorial Army was decided, the right hon. Gentleman would take steps to avoid it.
VISCOUNT MORPETHsaid it seemed to him that under the right hon. Gentleman's system they would have part of the Regular Army serving under Auxiliary officers; and he had the gravest doubt whether the Regular officers who would have eventually to deal with these men would approve of such a system.
MR. ASHLEYpointed out that the Yeomanry recruit was to be taken not younger then eighteen, while any man could be enlisted under Part III. at seventeen, so that those enlisted for home service would have to be eighteen, while for foreign service men might be enlisted at seventeen.
MR. HALDANEsaid the enlistment at seventeen only applied to the infantry.
MAJOR SEELY:thought the course of the debate was an argument in favour of the right hon. Gentleman's scheme for organising in two lines instead of three. So long as they confined themselves to that all was straightforward, but when once they came to the third line —the bridges — immense confusion was bound to arise. He doubted whether any of these bridges for the Auxiliary Forces would be found very workable; but it was not for him and the right hon. Gentleman opposite to complain of the confusion they would cause. The truth of the matter was that it was enormously difficult to get an Army of great size, which his right hon. friend thought ho required, under any system. This confusion was inherent in any scheme under which they endeavoured to get men in the home force to serve under different circumstances. He believed the proposals now before the Committee was a little bit better than any scheme previously put forward, but he could not honestly say more than that. The changes wore made necessary by
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the fact that they were trying to raise a larger foreign legion than any nation had ever been required to raise, excepting perhaps Japan; and to get a force such as the Opposition required would cost not less than £50,000,000 a year on their plan.
MR. WYNDHAM:said that what would happen under this scheme was that a Yeomanry regiment would be asked to say whether it could find so many men in order to make up a squadron who would be first line special reservists and engaged under Clause 29. They would be quite distinct from those with whom they trained, but they would not be a separate body of men. In fact the scheme proposed to do with the Yeomanry what the Militia now complained of and the Volunteers refused to submit to.
MR. HALDANEsaid they were supernumeraries.
MR. WYNDHAMsaid that that phrase did not assist him. Did it help these men's comrades in the ranks? Did it help the leaders or the officers who had to deal with two separate sets of men on parade? They trained these men on lines for which they were directly responsible to the Military Director, and then when war came a certain number of men were taken away and rolled up with other forces, and put under another man with other ideas. Why should not the right hon. Gentleman, instead of taking a few men from several regiments, take any regiment which was ready to find a squadron and treat that as a first-line regiment, others remaining part of the second line?
SIR F. BANBURYsaid the right hon. Gentleman had not received very hearty support from the hon. and gallant Gentleman for the Abercromby Division, who had practically asked him to abandon his bridges, and appeared to have come to the conclusion that the scheme of the right hon. Gentleman was an extremely bad one, or at least, was very little better than the schemes which his predecessors had put before the House. He did not pretend to have any military knowledge, but the speech of his noble friend the Member for South Birmingham had filled him with considerable alarm, because it had not been answered in the least. The noble Lord had said that certain troops

379
must be gathered together to assist the Regulars, "supernumeraries" ho believed was the word technically used. Those troops might be commanded by a Volunteer officer, though there might be a Regular officer present. He had always understood that great difficulty would arise if a Volunteer officer were put above a Regular officer. No doubt the hon. Member for East Edinburgh would be perfectly capable of conducting any operations even better than a Regular officer; but all Volunteer officers were not like the hon. Member, and it seemed to him to open up a great vista of trouble if, when in face of the enemy, we might have a largo number of our troops commanded by Volunteer officers when there were Regular officers present. He had been prepared to give a half-hearted support to the proposition of his right hon. friend because, differing from the hon. and gallant Gentleman below the gangway opposite, he was rather inclined to think that this scheme would lead to conscription. The point raised by the Amendment was one which should be cleared up.
*MR. CARLILEsaid ho found it difficult to understand what objection there was to the Amendment of his right hon. friend. Since it was moved full light had been thrown on the subject, and he thought it was now quite clear that the training of the whole regiment of Yeomanry under the general officer in command, in case of war, seemed very much more desirable than to take a few individuals out of a Yeomanry regiment, who would thus stand apart from their comrades. If the whole regiment was taken under the general officer commanding the district, he could see no special objection to it, but if individual members of the regiment were to be taken, then anyone who had any experience of the Yeomanry or Volunteers would realise that there would be some element of chaos in the regiment or battalion. The men, when they came back from training under the general officer commanding the district, would be under the impression that they had a special knowledge which the others had not, and the officers who had been with them would have the same feeling.
380
There would be a distinction between the two classes of persons in the various regiments and battalions. The Secretary of State said there was no difficulty in that. The right hon. Gentleman had never commanded a battalion. If he had, even for a short time, he would appreciate the difficulties of the case. His right hon. friend was very reasonable in suggesting that this should be done only where there were those willing to serve under special conditions, and the special contingent to form part of the first line should exceed 50 per cent. of any regiment or battalion. He did not think that any force or pressure should be used on the other 50 per cont. to act in the same way, but that, merely for the matter of training, the whole regiment should go under the general officer commanding the district. He would be the last to advocate the placing under the general officer commanding the district all the Territorial Force, because ho believed that they should be under their own divisional generals, and that those divisional generals should take their instructions from a department of the War Office established for the purpose of dealing with the Territorial Army. It was impossible in every way to make for order, efficiency of training, and the maintenance of esprit de corps if all those things which they considered to be valuable in training the forces were to be interfered with. They on that side of the House desired to see the Territorial Army an efficient force, but the right hon. Gentleman still maintained his love for the complicated and confusing arrangement of weeding out a few men from the regiments of Yeomanry and infantry of the Territorial Army for special training under the general officer commanding the district, while the remainder of the regiment might be trained under other officers of cavalry or infantry whose ideas of training might be of a totally different character. The result of that would be to set up a state of confusion in the minds of the officers concerned. The suggestion of his right hon. friend would overcome that; it would simplify matters.
THE DEPUTY-CHAIRMANsaid the hon. Member was repeating himself.
Question put—

AYES

Ashley, W. W.

Gardner, Ernest (Berks, East)

Salter, Arthur Clavell

Balcarres, Lord

Helmsley, Viscount

Sheffield,Sir Berkeley George D.

Banbury, Sir Frederick George

Houston, Robert Paterson

Sloan, Thomas Henry

Boyle, Sir Edward

Kennaway,Rt. Hn. Sir John H.

Smith,Abel H.(Hertford, East)

Carlile, E. Hildred

Kimber, Sir Henry

Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)

Castlereagh, Viscount

King,Sir HenrySeymour (Hull)

Vincent, Col. Sir C. E. Howard

Cave, George

Lane-Fox, G. R.

Walker, Col.W.H.(Lancashire)

Coates.F.Feetham (Lewisham)

Law, Andrew Bonar (Dulwich)

Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.)

Courthope, G. Loyd

Lowe, Sir Francis William

Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George;

Craig,Captain James (Down,E.)

Middlemore,John Throgmorton

Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

Morpeth, Viscount

TELLERS FOR THE AYES. —Sir

Duncan,Robert (Lanark.Govan

Pease.Herbert Pike (Darlington

Alexander Acland-Hood and

Fardell, Sir T. George

Randles, Sir John Scurrah

Viscount Valentia.

Fell, Arthur

Roberts.S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall)

Foster, Henry William

Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool)

NOES

Acland, Francis Dyke

Coats,Sir T.Glen (Renfrew, W.)

Henry, Charles S.

Adkins, W. Ryland D.

Collins, Stephen (Lambeth)

Herbert, T. Arnold (Wycombe)

Agnew, George William

Collins,SirWm.J.(S.Pancras,W.

Higham, John Sharp

Allen, Percy

Corbett.C.H.(Sussex,E.Grinst'd

Hobart, Sir Robert

Allen, A. Acland (Christchurch)

Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.

Hobhouse, Charles E. H.

Armstrong, W. C. Heaton

Cory, Clifford John

Harniman, Emslie John

Astbury, John Meir

Cotton, Sir H. J. S.

Horridge, Thomas Gardner

Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth)

Cowan, W. H.

Hudson. Walter

Baker, Joseph A. (Finsbury, E.)

Cremer, William Randal

Hyde, Clarendon

Balfour, Robert (Lanark)

Crooks, William

Jackson, R. S.

Barlow, John Emmott (Somerset

Davies, Timothy (Fulham)

Johnson, W. (Nuneaton)

Barlow, Percy (Bedford)

Davies, W. Howell (Bristol. S,)

Jones, Leif (Appleby)

Barnes, G. N.

Dewar.Arthur (Edinburgh, S.)

Jones, William (Carnarvonshire

Barry, Redmond J. (Tyrone, N.)

Dickinson, W.H.(St.Pancras,N.

Jowett, F. W.

Beck, A. Cecil

Dobson, Thomas W.

Kekewich, Sir George

Bell, Richard

Duncan, C.(Barrow-in-Furness)

King. Alfred John (Knutsford)

Bellairs, Carlyon

Dunne.Major E.Martin(Walsall

Laidlaw, Robert

Benn.Sir.J.Williams(Devonp'rt

Edwards, Clement (Denbigh)

Lamb, Edmund G. (Leominster

Bennett,.E. N.

Elibank, Master of

Lamont, Norman

Berridge, T. H. D.

Essex, R. W.

Layland-Barratt, Francis

Bertram, Julius

Esslemont, George Birnie

Lea,Hugh Cecil (St.Pancras, E.

Bethell.Sir J. H. (Essex,Romf'rd

Evans. Samuel T.

Levy, Maurice

Bethell, T. R. (Essex, Maldon)

Eve, Harry Trelawney

Lewis, John Herbert

Billson, Alfred

Everett, R. Lacey

Lough, Thomas

Black, Arthur W.

Faber, G. H. (Boston)

Luttrell, Hugh Fownes

Boulton, A. C. F.

Fenwick, Charles

Lynch, H. B.

Brace, William

Findlay, Alexander

Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester)

Bramsdon, T. A.

Fuller, John Michael F.

Macdonald,J.M.(FalkirkB'ghs

Branch, James

Gardner.Col. Alan (Hereford,S.)

Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.

Brigg, John

Gill, A. H.

Macpherson, J. T.

Brocklehurst, W. B.

Gladstone, Rt.Hn Herbert John

M'Callum. John M.

Brodie, H. C.

Glover, Thomas

M'Crae, George

Brooke, Stopford

Grant, Corrie

M'Laren, Sir C. B. (Leicester)

Brunner, J.F.L. (Lanes., Leigh)

Greenwood, G. (Peterborough)

M'Laren, H. D. (Stafford, W.)

Bryce, J. Annan

Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill

M'Micking, Major G.

Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn

Gulland, John W,

Maddison, Frederick

Buckmaster, Stanley O.

Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

Mallet, Charles E.

Burns, Rt. Hon. John

Haldane, Rt. Hon. Richard B.

Manfield, Harry (Northants)

Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas

Hall, Frederick

Mansfield.H.Rendall (Lincoln)

Byles, William Pollard

Hardy, George A. (Suffolk)

Marks,G.Croydon (Launceston)

Cairns, Thomas

Harmsworth, Cecil B. (Wore'r)

Marnham, F. J.

Cawley, Sir Frederick

Hart-Davies, T.

Massie, J.

Chance, Frederick William

Harvey, A. G. C.(Rochdale)

Micklem, Nathaniel

Cheetham, John Frederick

Haworth, Arthur A.

Molteno, Percy Alport

Cherry, Rt, Hon. R. R.

Hazel, Dr. A. E.

Mond, A.

Cleland, J. W.

Hedges, A. Paget

Money, L. G. Chiozza

Clough, William

Hemmerde, Edward George

Morgan, G. Hay (Cornwall)

Clynes, J. R.

Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

Morrell, Philip

The Committee divided:—Ayes, 39; Noes, 224. (Division List No. 197.)

Morse, L. L.

Roe, Sir Thomas

Thompson, J.W.H.(SomersetE.

Murray, James

Rowlands, J.

Torrance, Sir A. M.

Napier, T. B.

Russell, T. W.

Toulmin, George

Nicholls, George

Rutherford, V. H. (Brentford)

Vivian, Henry

Norton, Capt. Cecil William

Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)

Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

Nuttal, Harry

Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel)

Ward, John (Stoke upon Trent)

O'Donnell. C. J. (Walworth)

Sears, J. E.

Wardle, George J.

O'Grady, J.

Seaverns, J. H.

Waring, Walter

Parker, James (Halifax)

Seddon, J.

Wason. Eugene (Clackmannan)

Partington, Oswald

Seely, Major J. B.

Wason.JohnCatheart (Orkney)

Pearce, Robert (Staffs., Leek)

Sherwell, Arthur James

Watt, Henry A.

Pearce, William (Limehouse)

Shipman, Dr. John G.

White, George (Norfolk)

Pickersgill, Edward Hare

Silcock. Thomas Ball

White, J. D. (Dumbartonshire)

Pirie, Duncan V.

Simon, John Allsebrook

White, Luke (York, E. R.)

Pollard, Dr.

Spicer, Sir Albert

Whitehead, Rowland

Price. C. E. (Edinb'gh, Central)

Stanger, H. Y.

Whitely, John Henry (Halifax)

Priestley, Arthur (Grantham)

Stanley, Hn.A. Lyulph (Chesh.)

Wiles, Thomas

Priestley,W.E.B.(Bradford E.)

Steadman, W. C.

William, J. (Glamorgan)

Radford, G. H.

Stewart, Halley (Greenock)

Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)

Raphael, Herbert H.

Stewart-Smith, D. (Kendal)

Wills, Arthur Walters

Rea, Russell (Gloucester)

Strauss, E. A. (Abingdon)

Wilson. P. W. (St. Pancras, S.)

Rea, Walter Russell (Scarboro'

Summerbell, T.

Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)

Rendall, Athelstan

Sutherland, J. E.

Winfrey, R.

Richards,Thomas(W. Monm'th

Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth)

Wood, T. M'Kinnon

Richards.T.F. (Wolverhampt'n

Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)

Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)

Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.)

TELLERS FOR THE NOES—MR.Whiteley and Mr. J. A. Pease.

Robertson.SirG.Scott (Bradf'rd

Thomas.David Alfred (Merthyr

Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside)

Thomasson, Franklin

MR. WYNDHAM:moved to insert the words "Provided the pay and allowance of any man of the Territorial Force have been calculated in proportion to the amount of duties which he performs, and that an extra allowance shall be paid in respect of each extra duty performed and each extra liability taken." He had no desire to traverse the theory of the right hon. Gentleman's scheme or to draw any invidious distinction between one man and another in the Territorial Force, but some of them would have to do a great deal of work which others would not have to do. He had in his mind the artillerymen and the cavalry force, who had to do with horses as well as themselves. The artilleryman and the cavalryman had to do before and after the field day work which represented about two and a half hours labour. Last week he knew an instance where a Yeomanry regiment marched out at 7.30, and received the order to "cease lire" at 3.30 in the afternoon. Consequently they were eight hours in the saddle and traversed from twenty-eight to thirty miles. Before they marched out they had to attend to their horses and feed them. After "cease fire" it took them two hours to get back to camp, and then they had again to feed and groom their horses and see to the saddlery. Often great and unnecessary
384
expense was entailed if the attention to saddlery was scamped. To keep saddlery in a fit condition for training or service or to pass inspection meant hours of work after the strictly military training of the day had been brought to a conclusion. He thought those were practical facts which deserved the attention of the Government. A man in charge of a horse and Government stores ought to be paid for looking after that horse and keeping those stores in a thoroughly efficient and warlike condition.
Amendment proposed—
"in page 6, line 26, at the end, to insert the words, "Provided that the pay and allowances of any man of the Territorial Force shall be calculated in proportion to the amount of the duties which he performs, and that an extra allowance shall be paid in respect of each extra duty performed or extra liability undertaken." — (Mr. Wyndham.)
Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."
MR. HALDANEsaid he fully appreciated the amount of work the good soldier had to put in to do things efficiently. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Dover had drawn attention to what appeared to be small matters. He could assure him that while he thoroughly appreciated the value of the man who did his duty in those respects

385
he could not see how they could work out such an Amendment as that now proposed. It was not only in the case of the cavalry and the artillery that there was a great deal of work to be does. He thought the infantryman did more than the right hon. Gentleman seemed to think, because he was sometimes out all night, and he frequently had a great deal of hard work to do in the entrenchments. The life of an infantryman was becoming harder and harder, both with the Regular and with the Auxiliary Forces. It would be impossible to work out the principle of the Amendment, because there were no means of paying the men by results as there were in many occupations. While he appreciated the purpose and importance of the Amendment the difficulty was giving practical effect to it.
VISCOUNT HELMSLEY:said he quite anticipated that the right hon. Gentleman would have indicated his anxiety to meet the views of the right hon. Member for Dover, and he realised the real necessity of doing something in the direction in which the Amendment pointed. He questioned whether the right hon. Gentle man really recognised what the extra work involved upon the cavalryman of the new Territorial Force would be. He himself had just come from a training where the conditions had been very peculiar, so peculiar that he heard many wishes expressed on all sides that the right hon. Gentleman had been there in order that he might see for himself the conditions under which the Yeomanry did their work. He was assured that if only the Secretary of State for War could have seen the conditions his heart would have considerably softened, and so far from reducing the pay he would have increased it. If the right hon. Gentleman could realise what it was to be in camp when the camp was ploughed up and mud was a foot deep, he would realise what it meant to keep himself, his horse, and saddlery in a clean condition, and would give a more favourable answer to the Amendment. Surely it was in the interests of the service that those who undertook this work voluntarily should be compensated for the extra amount of work they had to do. The day of a cavalry soldier of the Territorial Force was a long and hard one. He was not like the infantryman
386
who when he came in merely had to go to his dinner or go to sleep. He had to clean and groom his horse, which took an hour and a half or two hours, and then he had to turn to and clean his saddlery and kit. That took the greater part of the day, and ho would not be inaccurate if he said that the Yeoman or artilleryman had practically no time at all to himself during the time he was undergoing his annual training. Perhaps he had an hour between five and six and such time between seven and when he turned in. Surely the man who underwent this extra work should be paid accordingly. He hoped the right hon. Gentleman would show more sympathy with the case of the Yeoman than he had hitherto done. Unless the Government were more sympathetic they would find the greatest possible difficulty in getting recruits for this particular branch of the service. The troops were recognising that a great deal more work was being thrown upon them and that they were not being in any way paid or compensated by the Government for it.
VISCOUNT CASTLEREAGHin supporting the Amendment, expressed the hope that the Yeomanry would receive a little more sympathy from the Government. The question of the difference between the cavalryman and the infantry man was of great importance. So long as they had to compete with the labour market for the purpose of recruiting for the Territorial Army, it was obvious the Government must be prepared to come forward and spend the money necessary to induce the men to join. Anyone who had had any experience would realise that the work of an infantryman was child's play compared with that of the cavalryman. The cavalryman started the day in the stables, and during the day had to devote a long time to looking after his horse, saddlery, and accoutrements. These duties, which in barracks were hard, were particularly so under canvas when the saddlery became saturated with rain. The extra duty involved in maintaining the saddlery in that state of efficiency which was necessary and economical only the experienced could realise. The Amendment should appeal to anyone who had at heart the interest of the Territorial Army. He had never favoured the scheme of the

387
right hon. Gentleman, but if it was to be a success, as he sincerely hoped it would be, the Amendment ought to receive sympathetic consideration.
*MR. LANE-FOXsaid he would like to see the Amendment accepted and applied equally to all branches of the Territorial Force as a matter of common equity. If a man had extra work he should be paid in proportion. It was obvious to everybody that the work of a cavalryman and an artilleryman must be harder than that of an ordinary infantry soldier. The right hon. Gentleman had referred to the work of entrenchment done by ordinary infantrymen, but did the infantry soldier have to, go to entrenchment work three times a day as the cavalry soldier had to go to stables, not to mention the extra work of cleaning saddlery? As a result of the system inaugurated by the Bill it was inevitable that there would for the first two years after a Yeomanry regiment was taken over be two classes of pay. If some concession were granted as proposed by the Amendment that might to a certain extent be obviated. The Yeoman practically held the situation in his own hand. There were only a certain number of men in this country fitted to be efficient Yeomen, and unless the services of those men were obtained the Secretary for War could not get sufficient cavalrymen for the Territorial Force. He hoped before it was too late that the right hon. Gentleman would realise the great difference between the work of one branch and another. It would be a great mistake to level down the Yeomanry to the level of other branches of the service instead of levelling up the others to the standard of efficiency and effectiveness of the Yeomanry.
SIR HOWARD VINCENTsaid he could not agree with what had been put forward on behalf of the cavalry. In another sphere the infantry deserved well of their country. They had done everything they could to attain efficiency. His hon. friend had dwelt on the terrible hardships of the Yeomanry, but he had forgotten to mention the benefits which they received. He had forgotten the magnificent uniform which was the envy of the infantry and which gave them a great advantage in
388
certain circles. He had also forgotten the enormous personal fatigue of long marches, the great weights which the infantry had to carry, and the entrenchment work to which the right hon. Gentleman had referred. When the infantry were marching weary miles the cavalry came riding and prancing past, their plumes waving in the wind. They were the admiration of the multitude. He reminded the Committee that there were mounted infantry who were quite equal to any troops of Yeomanry. In fact the Yeomanry were constantly beaten by the mounted infantry at Bisley and elsewhere. While he greatly appreciated the spirit in which his right hon. friend the Member for Dover had moved the Amendment, he hoped that the Government would stand firm in regard to the principle of equality.
LORD BALCARRESwished to get some information from the Financial Secretary to the War Office as to whether when the Associations were formed there would be equality of treatment in the different branches. After the County Associations were formed and the Yeomanry were taken over, would there be equality in emolument between the old members of the corps and the new recruits of the same regiment? If there were two scales of pay it would be extremely difficult to persuade men to enrol themselves on a lower scale when men of equivalent rank received the higher scale.
THE FINANCIAL SECRETARY TO THE WAR OFFICE (Mr. BUCHANAN, Perthshire, E.)was understood to say that the existing members of a Yeomanry regiment would continue to receive the existing pay; but that after the County Associations were formed and took over the Yeomanry the new recruits would receive the pay settled in this Bill.
LORD BALCARRES:said that in that case it was clearly impossible for the Government to accept the Amendment. Privates who enlisted subsequently to the Yeomanry being taken over by the County Associations would only get one-third of the pay which the original members received, and the existence of two scales of pay would be adverse to recruiting.
*MR. COURTHOPEsaid that as long as they recognised the principle that the men were to be paid, they should pay them for what they did. The Secretary of State for War had not met the argument of the right hon. Member for Dover at all. The right, hon. Gentleman said that the foot soldier was often out all night on outpost duty; he had himself been out all night as a Volunteer on many occasions, but whenever Yeomanry and artillery were available, they were out all night too. The Secretary for War had also stated that the infantry had entrenching to do; but the artillery had also to execute entrenching work which was far more severe and difficult. The infantry had only to dig trenches to cover themselves, whereas the artillery had to make trenches to cover themselves and their guns. He hoped the arguments of the right hon. Member for Dover would be really answered, instead of being met by the idle reasons which had been already given. Extra allowance should also be given to the mounted infantry and the machine-gun detachments. If the right hon. Gentleman had the handling of Maxim guns he would know how extraordinarily complicated their mechanism was, and how liable they were to jam. He had had a Maxim gun section under his command for two years, and he knew the enormous amount of extra work entailed on the men of that section. They had not only their own duties to perform and their rifles to look after, but after a field day, in which they had to drag the machine-guns, they had to spend long hours in stripping the guns and cleaning them and getting them into ship-shape order for the work of the
390
following day. It was of paramount importance to get the pick of the men for the machine-gun section, and that could only be done by making them an extra allowance for the additional duties they had to perform. He thought that the Amendment deserved support.
*MR. LANE-FOXsaid he understood from a letter written to him by the Secretary for War that the men who had enlisted for three years under present conditions would continue to receive the pay fixed when they enlisted until the end of their engagement.
MR. BUCHANANsaid that any promise made would be adhered to.
THE UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR INDIA (Mr. CHARLES HOBHOUSE, Bristol, E.)said that for three years there would be practically no change, but when the Yeomanry regiments came under the County Associations there would be a change of pay.
MR. ABEL SMITHsaid that supposing a man enlisted for three years between now and the Bill coming into force, and that a County Association was formed next year to takeover the control of the Yeomanry, and thereafter a man enlisted for three years, there would be in the same regiment two sets of men serving at different rates of pay.
Question put.
The Committee divided: — Ayes, 48; Noes, 246. (Division List No. 198.

AYES.

Ashley, W. W.

Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

Lockwood.Rt.Hn. Lt.-Col. A.R

Balcarres, Lord

Duncan,Robert(Lanark, Govan

Lowe, Sir Francis William

Banbury, Sir Frederick George

Fardell, Sir T. George

Middlemore,John Throgmorton

Baring,Capt.Hn.G.(Winchester

Fell, Arthur

Mildmay, Francis Bingham

Beckett, Hon. Gervase

Forster, Henry William

Morpeth, Viscount.

Bignold, Sir Arthur

Gardner, Ernest (Berks, East)

Parker, Sir Gilbert (Gravesend)

Boyle, Sir Arthur

Helmsley, Viscount

Pease,Herbert Pike (Darlington

Carlile, E. Hildred

Hervey,F.W.F.(BuryS.Edm'ds

Randles, Sir John Scurrah

Castlereagh, Viscount

Houston, Robert Paterson

Ratcliff, Major R. F.

Cave, George

Kennaway, Rt.Hon.Sir.John H.

Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel

Coates, E. Feetham(Lewisham)

Keswick, William

Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall)

Courthope, G. Loyd

King.SirHenrySeymour (Hull)

Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool)

Craig,Captain James (Down E.)

Lane-Fox, G. R.

Salter, Arthur Clavell

Craik, Sir Henry

Law, Andrew Bonar (Dulwich)

Sheffield.SirBerkeleyGeorge D

391

Sloan, Thomas Henry

Walker, Col. W. H. (Lancashire)

TELLERS FOR THE AYES— Sir

Smith, Abel H. (Hertford East)

Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.)

Alexander Acland-Hood and

Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

Viscount Valentia.

NOES.

Abraham, William (Rhondda)

Davies, Timothy (Fulham)

Lewis, John Herbert

Acland, Francis Dyke

Dewar, Arthur (Edinburgh, S.)

Lough, Thomas

Adkins, W. Ryland D.

Dickinson,W.H.(St.Pancras, N.

Luttrell, Hugh Fownes

Agnew, George William

Duncan.C. (Barrow-in-Furness)

Lynch, H. B.

Ainsworth, John Stirling

Dunne,Major E.Martin(Walsall

Macdonald. J. R. (Leicester)

Alden, Percy

Edwards, Clement (Denbigh)

Macdonald,J.M.(Falkirk B'ghs)

Allen, A. Acland (Christchurch)

Elibank, Master of

Mackarness, Frederic C.

Armstrong, W. C. Heaton

Essex, R. W.

Macnamara. Dr. Thomas J.

Astbury, John Meir

Esslemont, George Birnie

Macpherson, J. T.

Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth)

Eve, Harry Trelawney

M'Callum, John M.

Baker, Joseph A, (Finsbury, E.)

Everett. R. Lacey

M'Crae, George

Balfour, Robert (Lanark)

Faber, G. H. (Boston)

M'Laren, Sir C. B. (Leicester)

Barlow John Emmott(Somerset

Fenwick, Charles

M'Laren, H. D. (Stafford, W.)

Barlow, Percy (Bedford)

Findlay, Alexander

M'Micking. Major G.

Barnes, G. N.

Foster, Rt, Hon. Sir Walter

Maddison, Frederick

Barry.Redmond J. (Tyrone, N.)

Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

Mallet, Charles E.

Beck, A.Cecil

Fuller, John Michael F.

Manfield, Harry (Northants)

Bell, Richard

Gardner, Col.Alan(Hereford, S.

Mansfield.H.Rendall (Lincoln)

Bellairs, Carlyon

Gill, A. H.

Markham, Arthur Basil

Benn,SirJ Williams (Devonport

Gladstone,Rt Hn.Herbert John

Marks,G.Croydon (Launceston)

Benn,W.T'w'r Hamlets, S. Geo.

Glover, Thomas

Marnham. F. J.

Bennett, E.N.

Goddard, Daniel Ford

Massie. J.

Berridge, T. H. D.

Grant, Corrie

Micklem. Nathaniel

Bertram, Julius

Greenwood, G. (Peterborough)

Molteno, Percy Alport

Bethell.Sir J. H.( Essex.Romford

Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill

Mond, A.

Bethell, T. R. (Essex, Maldon)

Gulland, John W.

Money, L. G. Chiozza

Billson, Alfred

Gurdon, Sic W. Brampton

Montgomery. H. G.

Black, Arthur W.

Haldane, Rt. Hon. Richard B.

Morgan, G. Hay (Cornwall)

Boulton, A. C. F.

Hall, Frederick

Morrell. Philip

Brace, William

Hardy, George A. (Suffolk)

Morse, L. L.

Bramsdon, T. A.

Harmsworth.Cecil B.(Wore'r)

Murray, James

Branch, James

Harmsworth,R.L.(Caithn'ss-sh

Napier, T. B.

Brigg, John

Hart-Davies, T.

Newnes, F. (Notts, Bassetlaw)

Brocklehurst, W. B.

Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale)

Newnes, Sir George (Swansea)

Brodie, H. C.

Haworth. Arthur A.

Nicholls, George

Brooke, Stopford

Hazel, Dr. A. E.

Norton, Capt. Cecil William

Brunner.J. F. L. (Lanes., Leigh)

Hedges, A. Paget

Nuttall, Harry

Bryce, J. Annan

Hemmerde; Edward George

O'Donnell. C. J. (Walworth)

Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn

Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

O'Grady, J.

Buckmaster, Stanley O.

Henry, Charles S.

Parker, James (Halifax)

Burns, Rt. Hon. John

Herbert,T.Arnold (Wycombe)

Partington, Oswald

Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas

Higham, John Sharp

Paul, Herbert

Byles. William Pollard

Hobart, Sir Robert

Pearce, Robert (Staffs., Leek)

Cairns, Thomas

Hobhouse, Charles E. M.

Pearce, William (Limehouse)

Cameron, Robert

Holt, Richard Durning

Pickersgill. Edward Hare

Carr-Gomm, H. W.

Horniman, Emslie John

Pirie, Duncan V.

Cawley, Sir Frederick

Horridge, Thomas Gardner

Pollard. Dr.

Chance, Frederick William

Hudson, Walter

Price,C.E.(Edinburgh, Central)

Cheetham, John Frederick

Hyde, Clarendon

Priestley, Arthur (Grantham)

Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R.

Jackson, R. S.

Priestley,W.E. B.( Bradford. E.)

Cleland, J. W.

Johnson, W. (Nuneaton)

Radford, G. H.

Clough, William

Jones, Leif (Appleby)

Rainy, A. Rolland

Clynes, J. R.

Jones, William (Carnarvonshire

Raphael, Herbert H.

Coats,SirT. Glen (Renfrew, W.)

Jowett, F. W.

Rea, Russell (Gloucester)

Collins, Stephen (Lambeth)

Kearley, Hudson E.

Rea,Walter Russell (Scarboro')

Collins,SirWm.J.(S.Pancras,W.

Kekewich. Sir George

Rendall. Athelstan

Corbett,C.H.(Sussex,EGrinst'd

King,Alfred John (Knutsford)

Richards,Thomas (W.Monm'th

Cornwall. Sir Edwin A.

Laidlaw, Robert

Richards. T. F. (Wolverhampt'n

Cory, Clifford John

Lamb,Edmund G.(Leominster)

Roberts, Charles H, (Lincoln)

Cotton, Sir H. J. S.

Lambert, George

Roberts. John H. (Denbighs.)

Cowan, W. H.

Lamont, Norman

Robertson. Rt. Hn. E (Dundee)

Cremer, William Randal

Layland- Barratt, Francis

Robertson.Sir G.Scott(Bradf'rd

Crooks, William

Lea,Hugh Cecil (St.Pancras, E.

Robertson. J. M. (Tyneside)

Crossley, William J.

Lever,W.H. (Cheshire, Wirral)

Rowlands..J

Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardigan)

Levy, Maurice

Russell, T. W.

392

393

Rutherford, V. H. (Brentford)

Summerbell, T.

White, George (Norfolk)

Samuel,Herbert L. (Cleveland)

Sutherland, J. E.

White, J, D). (Dumbartonshire)

Samuel. S. M. (Whitechapel)

Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth)

White, Luke (York, E.R.)

Sears,.J. E.

Taylor,Theodore C. (Radcliffe)

Whitehead, Rowland)

Seaverns, J. H.

Thomas,Sir A.(Glamorgan, E.

Whitley,John Henry (Halifax)

Seddon..J.

Thomas,David Alfred(Merthyr)

Wiles, Thomas

Seely, Major J. B.

Thomasson, Franklin

Williams, J. (Glamorgan)

Sherwell, Arthur James

Thompson,.J. W.H.(Somerset,E.

Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)

Shipman. Dr. John G.

Torrance, Sir A. M.

Wills, Arthur Walters

Silcock, Thomas Ball

Toulmin, George

Wilson, P. W. (St. Pancras, S.)

Simon, John Allsebrook

Vivian, Henry

Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)

Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie

Walters, John Tudor

Winfrey, R.

Spicer, Sir Albert

Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

Wood, T. M'Kinnon

Stanger, H. Y.

Ward,John (Stoke upon Trent)

Stanley,Hn. A. Lyulph (Chesh.)

Wardle, George J.

TELLERS FOR THE NOES. —Mr.Whiteley and Mr. J. A. Pease.

Steadman, W. C.

Waring. Walter

Stewart, Halley (Greenock)

Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan)

Stewart-Smith, D. (Kendal)

Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney)

Strauss, E. A. (Abingdon)

Watt, Henry A.

SIR HOWARD VINCENT:moved an Amendment to provide that for the effective central administration of the Territorial Force a Department should be established at the War Office under an officer having special knowledge and experience with the Militia, Yeomanry, and Volunteers, and ranking as the third military member of the Army Council. The words with the exception that they only applied to the Volunteers were on the Paper as an Amendment to Clause 5, but the Chairman suggested that they would not properly come in at that point, and therefore he moved them in this place and added the words which extended the provision to Yeomanry and Militia. A Royal Commission, composed of a large number of very experienced Members, had sat upon the Constitution of the Militia and Volunteers, under the Chairmanship of the Duke of Norfolk. They pointed out that the Volunteers owed their existence to the goodwill of its officers and men, and the fact that it did not attain to the standard of the Regular Army was in no way attributable to them. They recommended that the Volunteer force should be managed at the War Office by a separate Department which had special experience of Volunteers and should report direct to the Army Council. That Report was signed by nearly every Member of the Commission. There was a supplementary Report by Colonel O'Callaghan Westwood who had given great attention to the Auxiliary Forces, and whose opinion carried great weight, and he said he had no doubt whatever that the maladministration which had been recorded in the Report would have been greatly
394
decreased if they had had at the War Office a Department to which abuses could be reported with a representative so highly placed that he could have sought redress from the Secretary of State for War. He was quite sure that if the Territorial Force was to succeed it must be administered at the War Office by a distinctly separate Department manned by officers who were experienced in the administration of the Yeomanry, Militia and Volunteers, and had a belief in those forces. He quite agreed that a good deal had been done in this direction in recent years. Up to 1875 there was nothing done in regard to the Auxiliary Forces, but in that year Sir Edward Bulwer was appointed first Adjutant General. Then under Mr. Brodrick or some other Secretary for War an Inspector-General of Auxiliary Forces was created, but that officer never had any real authority. He was always under the Adjutant-General, and was always a subordinate officer. Recently an Inspector-General of Auxiliary Forces was appointed in the person of General Mackinnon, an extremely able officer in the field, with a great knowledge of the Auxiliary Forces, but General Mackinnon had never been placed in a position in which he had his proper place as Inspector-General; he had always been under the Adjutant-General. He had no independent office of any kind, and he could only say to any officer who interviewed him that he would submit his views to his superior officer. The result was that although General Mackinnon's experience was very great he had not been able to carry out what he would have been able to do if he had been placed in a superior position. They had

395
always protested against the administration of the Auxiliary Forces being a more subordinate department to the Adjutant-General's. They bore no ill-will against the Adjutant General, General Douglas, who was an experienced officer. There was nothing personal in what they said, but the Auxiliary Forces felt very strongly that their numbers and importance entitled them to be represented by a general officer or an officer of high rank with a position on the Army Council, so that he would be able to lay before the Army Council the necessities and feelings of the Auxiliary Forces. The Secretary for War said he thought this was a very important matter, and so long as he was at the War Office he would make himself responsible for the Auxiliary Forces, but they did not know how long the right hon. Gentleman with his genial good temper would be at the head of military affairs. If this measure passed he would do all in his power to make it a success, but he was quite certain that it could not be successful unless the Auxiliary Forces were represented on the Army Council by a general officer or officer of high rank who was conversant with and had had experience of the Auxiliary Forces, who was, above all, a believer in them, and whose reputation depended upon their efficiency. He therefore hoped that the Amendment, which was moved with a genuine desire to put something in the Bill in order to make it a success, would be accepted by the right hon. Gentleman.
Amendment proposed—
"In page 6, line 21, at end, to add the words 'And for the effective central administration of this force a department shall be established at the War Office under an officer having special knowledge and experience with the Volunteers, and ranking as the third military member of the Army Council." — (Sir Howard Vincent.)
Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."
MR. CHARLES HOBHOUSE:said the real point of difference between the Secretary of State and the hon. and gallant Member was this—that whereas the latter desired that the Auxiliary Forces should be represented by a military officer of experience, the former believed that that was not the desire of the Auxiliary Forces as a whole. ["No."] He was
396
told that the overwhelming opinion of that body was that their representative should be a civilian who was himself a member of the Auxiliary Forces, and not a soldier. What was it they wanted represented on the Army Council? They wanted, not the mere military point of view of how much and in what way they should train, but that there should be some one intimately acquainted from personal experience with the needs and requirements, from an inside point of view, of citizen soldiers. The most sympathetic of soldiers did not and could not, from the nature of his service in the Army, know as much about what was passing in the minds of civilians as one who was himself a civilian and who happened to be a politician. The director-general of the Auxiliary Forces would be associated with the Civil member of the Council, and give him the advantage of his military knowledge and experience.
SIR GILBERT PARKERasked whether the Civil member of the Council was intended to be an officer of the Auxiliary Forces.
MR. CHARLES HOBHOUSEsaid it was impossible to say whether the next Government or, indeed, the present Government would appoint to the post a member of that House or the other—for he must belong to one or the other—for his eminence as a soldier or for his eminence as a politician. As a matter of fact, the last two Under-Secretaries at the War Office had been, either Regular soldiers or members of the Auxiliary Forces, or both; and no doubt that was a consideration which would not be lost sight of in the future. The Government felt a great desire to proceed along the lines suggested by the hon. and gallant Gentleman, but they could not accept the Amendment for fear it might unduly tie their hands.
SIR GILBERT PARKERdid not think that those who took any interest in this particular organisation would be quite satisfied with the reply of the Under-Secretary of State for India. That reply in brief was that the representative of the Territorial Force on the Army Council was to be the Under-secretary of State for War.
MR. CHARLES HOBHOUSE: The Civil member.
SIR GILBERT PARKER:said that did not alter the position in the slightest. This was not the first time the matter had come up. On many occasions they had strongly advocated what his hon. and gallant friend had advocated that evening but they would never have accepted under the old system what the Under-secretary of State now proposed. All they would have accepted then was that for which the hon. and gallant Member for Sheffield appealed, namely, a direct representative of the Territorial Force on the Army Council. Either they should have an officer of the Regular Forces who thoroughly understood the Volunteers, or an officer of the Auxiliary Forces who understood their needs and views. Such an officer should be put in a position of responsibility at the War Office. They asked for a separate department at the War Office because they believed the Auxiliary Forces had suffered more from lack of clear representation of their views to the War Minister and through him to the Cabinet, than from any other source. They were told that they were being given a new Home defence force with clearly defined duties, and providing for the Regular Army a reserve in time of war such as the Regular Army had never had before from the Auxiliary Forces; and yet, at the very time the Auxiliary Forces were given an entirely now position, they were told that to satisfy their anxious demand for a clearer and stronger representation of their views a Civil member, advised by the Director - general, was to represent them at the War Office. He did not think that any auxiliary officer in the House would be satisfied with that, and he believed that if his hon. friend's Amendment had been proposed by the Government not five Members on the other side of the House would have been found to oppose it. [An HON. MEMBER: Not one.] Again and again his friends had urged a separate department at the War Office, with for its head an auxiliary officer of great experience—a man, say, like Sir Alfred Turner; or there were many other officers who had great sympathy with the Auxiliary Forces, who would be able to represent directly to the War
398
Office or the Army Council the consensus of opinion the needs and position in our military organisation of the Auxiliary Forces. In the last Parliament when they were fighting the fight of the Auxiliary Forces, and fighting for Army Reform, they looked upon the right hon. Gentleman as one who understood the position and sympathised with their views in regard to the Auxiliary Forces. What possible objection could he have to this Amendment? With a separate department, they would have at the head of it an officer who would understand the policy of the right hon. Gentleman, and they would have a direct representation of the Auxiliary Forces at the War Office. He strongly supported the Amendment.
*.MR. McCRAEsaid ho believed that the Amendment had more substance and real merit than any which had preceded it. He did not say that the Secretary for War should accept this Amendment in the exact form moved, but he did not think it would be wise that he should leave the matter as it had been presented by the Under-Secretary for India. This was a very real grievance which the Auxiliary Forces had been suffering from for years. Their complaint had always been that they had never been understood by the War Office nor even by the Army Council. They had certainly hoped that those days had now gone, and that under the new organisation they would have a separate department and direct representation on the Army Council. He did not think that representation through a Civil member would at all meet the case. The Civil member might be the Under-secretary of State, who would be chosen for his administrative abilities and not because of his military knowledge. He held that it was more and more necessary, now that they had a new scheme, with large delegation to county associations, that they should have at the Army Council direct representation of the Auxiliary Forces by a military man, and he did not say that that military man should be a member of the Auxiliary Forces. There were in the British Army at the present time many military men who had been adjutants, and had experience of Volunteer corps; and he would almost go the length of saying that he would take any man who

399
had personal experience of the Auxiliary Forces as a representative on the Army Council. Really he thought that was essential, and direct representation they should have. They were going to create a Territorial Army which was to be sufficient in itself, and surely, if the Secretary for War would for a moment think what was to be expected from that Territorial Army, he would feel that there must be a separate department with direct representation on the Army Council, so that he might have expert opinion to guide him in any now schemes or new administration of the forces. He hoped that the right hon. Gentleman would at once, if he could not accept the Amendment of the hon. and gallant Gentleman opposite, give the Committee such an undertaking as would show that he realised that direct representation, with a separate department for the Territorial Army, was absolutely necessary.
MR. WYNDHAMendorsed what had been said by the hon. Member. The Under-Secretary for India had suggested a Civil member of the Council; but what guns would such a member carry against the distinguished generals on the Council? The view of the Auxiliary Forces was that, if they were to have fair play on the Army Council, their representative must have the same standing in the Army as the distinguished generals who would be his colleagues. If it were made worth his while many an officer would take an interest in the Auxiliary Forces. If it were a prize to a distinguished soldier who made the Auxiliary Forces the subject of his attention to represent the Force on the Council, it would be doing more for those Forces than representation in the sense in which the Under-Secretary for India
400
understood it. Years ago the Auxiliary Forces had more effective representation at the War Office than now when about the fourth great general was in charge of the Recruiting and Auxiliary Forces.
MR. HALDANE:said it had been suggested that the best way of getting the organisation of the Territorial Army worked out was that it should be represented on the Army Council by either a Regular soldier having some special interest in it or by a Territorial soldier who knew the facts; because the traditions of the Army Council were that the big soldier—and the big soldier was always a Regular soldier—who had held high command should, in military matters, carry the greatest weight in the Council, and no Auxiliary Force officer could compete with him. They must be practical, and consider how they were to get the best organisation for the Territorial Army. So difficult was the problem that he thought it was desirable that, in the first instance, it should be worked out by the Minister chiefly responsible to Parliament. The Secretary of State, after all, always had more influence on the Army Council than anyone else, and he would tell the Committee frankly what was in his mind on this subject. He proposed to take the whole matter into his own hands, and to be the representative of the Territorial Army on the Army Council He proposed to have a Department presided over by someone who had great knowledge of the Auxiliary Forces, and he would have in his Department representatives of the Territorial Army— people also with express knowledge—and he would be in a position to give advice; and more than that, if it was thought advisable, there would be an Advisory Committee to give them the guidance and the information they wanted

401
He said at once that the proposal must be of a transitory character. It must last while they were working out the proper form of organisation. They could not do all at a stroke They must feel their way. he thought the true representative of the Auxiliary Forces on the Army Council for the future would be a civilian chosen for his knowledge of those forces; but in the intervening period, the period which must begin when the Bill passed, the work must be done by someone who could speak with authority on the Army Council, and he proposed, not because he had any particular confidence in his own capacity, but because of his influence on the Council, to take the matter into his own hands and work it out. All who knew the inside working of the War Office were agreed that that was the best and most effective course to take. They could set down on paper an organisation which would look well, but it should also be one which would work well in practice. It was easy to create a Department such as the Amendment contemplated, but it was quite another thing to make it a working and influential Department. The whole question was whether the person who represented the Territorial Force would, from the beginning, represent it with the authority required to get the organisation thoroughly worked out. That was a matter the responsibility for which he felt ought to be taken by the Secretary of State in the earlier stages, and ho was convinced that it would be found the most practical course.
VISCOUNT MORPETHsaid the question was whether the man who represented the Territorial Force on the Army Council was to be a politician or a soldier. The right hon. Gentleman had placed himself in the
402
position of representative of the Auxiliary Forces, knowing that the Committee would have difficulty in refusing the offer because of the well-founded admiration they had of his capacity and zeal. That could only be a makeshift arrangement in any case. What he and his friends desired was that there should be some arrangement for a permanent representative of the Auxiliary Forces on the Army Council. He thought it was inevitable that in the Territorial Army political influences must operate more than in the Regular Army. Officers of the Yeomany, the Militia, and the Volunteers were often influential Members of Parliament, and, therefore, political influences did come into play. It was for that reason that they thought it was essential that there should be a soldier at the head of the Department. It was for that reason also that they desired to see a general rather than the Secretary of State for War representing the Territorial Force. The Secretary of State did not offer his services permanently; he said that they had the Under-Secretary to fall back upon. He did not desire to say anything disrespectful of Under-Secretaries, but they would not be able to contend against the distinguished soldiers on the Army Council.
MAJOR SEELYsaid he wished to reply to a phrase that fell from the right hon. Member for Dover to the effect that no civil member could ever have so great authority as a military member in the Army Council. That was disproved by recent history. No man ever did more for the Auxiliary Forces in a short time than the right hon. Gentleman himself. He did not say that in order to score a debating point. Every member of the Auxiliary Forces knew that it was true. At a time of stress and difficulty—

403
although it might not suit the right hon. Gentleman's hook at this particular moment to acknowledge it—he did more tangible things for the Auxiliary Forces than all the generals or others who had had charge of those Forces before him. He could not deny it. It did not matter whether they had a civilian or a soldier representing the Territorial Force on the Army Council. [An HON. MEMBER. The Member for Dover is a soldier.] He admitted that the right hon. Gentleman was at one time a distinguished officer of the Guards, but at the time referred to he was a politician pure and simple. He thought the mover of the Amendment would agree with him in saying that the Adjutant-General should be deprived of power to control the Territorial Army, not because he had any evil intentions towards that Army, but because, in view of his other duties in connection with the Regular Army, he might be antipathetic to the Volunteers. While he could not vote for the precise terms of the Amendment, he was thoroughly in sympathy with the mover in wishing a separate Department. He hoped the Secretary of State would agree to some such proposal.

AYES.

Acland-Hood,Rt,Hn.SirAlex.F.

Cave, George

Forster, Henry William

Anson, Sir William Reynell

Cavendish,Rt.Hon.Victor C.W.

Gardner, Ernest(Berks, East)

Arkwright, John Stanhope

Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

Gibbs, G. A. (Bristol. West)

Ashley, W. W.

Chamberlain,Rt. Hn J. A. (Wore.

Gill. A. H.

Aubrey-Fletcher,Rt. Hon.Sir H.

Chance, Frederick William

Hardy,Laurence (Kent,Ashford

Balcarres, Lord

Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry

Harrison- Broadley, H. B.

Balfour,Rt,Hn.A.J.(City Lond.

Clynes, J. R.

Harwood, George

Banbury, Sir Frederick George

Coates,E.Feetham (Lewisham)

Hay, Hon. Claude George

Baring, Capt.Hn.G (Winchester

Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

Helmsley, Viscount

Beckett, Hon. Gervase

Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow)

Hervey.F. W. (Bury S.Edm'ds)

Bennett, E. N.

Courthope, G. Loyd

Hill, Sir Clement (Shrewsbury)

Bertram, Julius

Cowan, W. H.

Hills,,J. W.

Bignold, Sir Arthur

Craig,Captain James(Down,E.)

Houston, Robert Paterson

Bowles, G. Stewart

Craik, Sir Henry

Jowett, F. W.

Boyle, Sir Edward

Dalrymple, Viscount

Kennaway.Rt.Hon.Sir John H.

Bridgeman, W. Clive

Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

Kenyon-Slaney,Rt.Hon.Col.W.

Brodie, H. C.

Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers

Keswick, William

Burdett-Coutts, W.

Duncan,Robert (Lanark,Govan

King, Sir Henry Seymour (Hull

Butcher, Samuel Henry

Faber, George Denison (York)

Lambton.. Hon.Frederick Wm.

Byles, William Pollard

Fardell, Sir T. George

Lane-Fox, G. R.

Carlile, E. Hildred

Fell, Arthur

Law,Andrew Bonar (Dulwich)

Castlereagh, Viscount

Fletcher, J. S.

Lockwood.Rt.Hn.Lt.-Col.A. R.

MR. GUEST:said the Auxiliary Forces had suffered more in the past from not being properly represented on the Army Council than from any other reason. He wanted to know why they should not be represented on the Army Council by both a civil and a military representative. It was almost impossible to exaggerate the importance of having the Territorial Force adequately represented on the Army Council, who would control their destinies along with the destinies of the Regular Army.
And, it being half-past Ten of the Clock, the Chairman proceeded, pursuant to the Order of the House of 6th May, to put forthwith the Question necessary to dispose of the Amendment already proposed from the Chair: —
Question put, "That the words 'and for the effective central administration of this force to establish a Department at the War Office under an officer having special knowledge and experience with the Militia, Yeomanry, and Volunteers ranking as the third member of the Army Council,' be there inserted."
The Committee divided: —Ayes, 114; Noes, 295. (Division List No. 199.)

Long,Col.Charles W.(Evesham)

Pirie. Duncan V.

Thornton, Percy M.

Long,Rt.Hn.Walter(Dublin,S.)

Randles, Sir John Scurrah

Valentia, Viscount

Lonsdale, John Brownlee

Ratcliff, Major R. F.

Walker,Col.W.H. (Lancashire)

Lowe, Sir Francis William

Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel

Walrond, Hon. Lionel

Lynch, H. B.

Renton, Major Leslie

Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent. Mid)

Macpherson, J. T.

Roberts, S.(Sheffield, Ecclesall)

Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.)

M'Micking. Major G.

Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool)

Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

Marks. H. H. (Kent)

Salter, Arthur Clavell

Wilson, Hon.C.W. H.(Hull,W.)

Mason, James F. (Windsor)

Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert

Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)

Meysey-Thompson, E. C.

Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone. W.)

Wortley, Rt.Hon. C. B. Stuart-

Middlemore, John Throgmorton

Sheffield.Sir BerkeleyGeorge D.

Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

Mildmay, Francis Bingham

Sloan, Thomas Henry

Younger, George

Morpeth, Viscount

Smith,Abel H.(Hertford. East)

TELLERS FOR THE AYES. —Sir

Muntz, Sir Philip A.

Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)

Howard Vincent and Sir

Nicholson, Wm. G. (Petersfield)

Starkey, John R.

Gilbert Parker.

O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens

Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

Pease, HerbertPike( Darlington]

Talbot,Rt.Hn.J.G.(Oxf'dUniv:

Percy, Earl

Thomson,W. Mitchell-(Lanark)

NOES.

Abraham, William (Rhondda)

Carr-Gomm, H. W.

Grant, Corrie

Acland, Francis Dyke

Cawley, Sir Frederick

Greenwood, G. (Peterborough)

Adkins, W. Ryland D.

Channing, Sir Francis Allston

Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill

Agnew, George William

Cheetham, John Frederick

Gulland, John W.

Ainsworth, John Stirling

Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R.

Gurdon. Sir W. Brampton

Alden. Percy

Cleland, J. W.

Haldane, Rt. Hon. Richard B.

Allen,A.Acland(Christchurch)

Clough, William

Hall, Frederick

Armitage, R.

Coats,.SirT.Glen(Renfrew.W.)

Harcourt, Right. Hon. Lewis

Armstrong, W. C. Heaton

Collins, Stephen ( Lambeth)

Hardy, George A. (Suffolk)

Ashton, Thomas Gair

Collins,Sir Wm.J (S.Pancras,W.

Harmsworth,CecilB.(Worc'r)

Asquith, Rt.Hn.HerbertHenry

Cooper, G. J.

Harmsworth,R.L.(Caithn'ss-sh

Astbury, John Meir

Corbett,C.H(Sussex,E.Grinst'd

Hart-Davies, T.

Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth)

Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.

Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale)

Baker, Joseph A. (Finsbury,E.)

Cory, Clifford John

Haworth, Arthur A.

Balfour, Robert (Lanark)

Cotton, Sir H. J. S.

Hazel, Dr. A. E.

Baring,Godfrey(Isle of Wight)

Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth]

Hedges, A. Paget

Barker, John

Cremer, William Randal

Hemmerde, Edward George

Barlow, JohnEmmott(Somerset

Crombie, John William

Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

Barlow, Percy (Bedford)

Crooks, William

Henderson, J.M.(Aberdeen,W.)

Barnard, E. B.

Crosfield, A. H.

Henry, Charles S.

Barnes, G. N.

Crossley, William.J.

Herbert, T. Arnold (Wycombe)

Barry. RedmondJ. (Tyrone, N.)

Davies, David(MontgomeryCo.

Higham, John Sharp

Beauchamp, E.

Davies,Ellis William (Eifion)

Hobart, Sir Robert

Beck, A. Cecil

Davies,M. Vaughan -(Cardigan

Hobhouse, Charles E. H.

Bell, Richard

Davies, Timothy (Fulham)

Holden, E. Hopkinson

Bellairs, Carlyon

Davies, W. Howell (Bristol.S.)

Holt, Richard Durning

Benn.SirJ. Williams(Devonp'rt)

Dewar,Arthur(Ediburgh, S.)

Horniman, Emslie John

Benn,W.(T'W'rHamlets,S.Geo.

Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh.)

Horridge, Thomas Gardner

Berridge, T. H. D.

Dickinson, W.H. (St. Pancras,N.

Howard, Hon. Geoffrey

Bethell,SirJ.H.(Essex,Romf'rd

Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.

Hudson, Walter

Bethell,T.R.(Essex, Maldon)

Duncan, C.( Barrow-in-Furness

Hyde, Clarendon

Billson, Alfred

Dunne,MajorE.Martin(Walsall

Idris, T. H. W.

Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine

Edwards, Clement (Denbigh)

Illingworth, Percy H.

Black, Arthur W.

Edwards, Frank (Radnor)

Isaacs, Rufus Daniel

Boulton, A. C. F.

Erskine, David C.

Jackson, R. S.

Bowerman. C. W.

Essex, R, W.

Johnson, W. (Nuneaton)

Brace, William

Esslemont, George Birnie

Jones,SirD.Brynmor(Swansea

Bramsdon, T. A.

Evans, Samuel T.

Jones, Leif (Appleby)

Branch, James

Eve, Harry Trelawney

Jones, William(Carnarvonshire

Brigg, John

Everett, R. Lacey

Kearley, Hudson E.

Brocklehurst, W. B.

Faber, G. H. (Boston)

Kekewich, Sir George

Brooke, Stopford

Fenwick, Charles

King, Alfred John(Knutsford)

Brunner,J.F.L.(Lancs.,Leigh)

Findlay, Alexander

Kitson, Rt. Hon. Sir James

Bryce, J. Annan

Foster, Rt. Hon. Sir Walter

Laidlaw, Robert

Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn

Fuller, John Michael F.

Lamb,Edmund G. (Leominster)

Buckmaster, Stanley O.

Furness, Sir Christopher

Lambert, George

Burns, Rt. Hon. John

Gardner, Col. Alan (Hereford.S.)

Lamont, Norman

Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas

Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herbert John

Layland-Barratt, Francis

Buxton,Rt.Hn.SydneyCharles

Glover, Thomas

Lea,HughCecil(St.Pancras, E.

Cairns, Thomas

Goddard, Daniel Ford

Leese,Sir JosephF. (Accrington

Cameron, Robert

Gooch, George Peabody

Lever, W. H. (Cheshire, Wirral)

406

407

Levy, Maurice

Pearce, William (Limehouse)

Stewart, Halley (Greenock)

Lewis, John Herbert

Pearson,SirW.D.(Colchester)

Stewart-Smith, D. (Kendal)

Lloyd-George, Rt.Hon.David

Philipps,J.Wynford(Pembroke

Strachey, Sir Edward

Lough, Thomas

Philipps, Owen C. (Pembroke)

Straus, B. S. (Mile End)

Lupton, Arnold

Pickersgill, Edward Hare

Strauss, E. A. (Abingdon)

Luttrell, Hugh Fownes

Pollard, Dr.

Summerbell, T.

Lyell, Charles Henry

Price, C.E.( Edinburgh, Central)

Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth)

Macdonald. J. R. (Leicester)

Priestley, Arthur (Grantham)

Taylor, TheodoreC.(Radcliffe)

Macdonald,J.M.(Falkirk B'ghs

Priestley, W. E. B.( Bradford, E.)

Tennant,SirEdward(Salisbury)

Mackaness, Frederic C.

Radford, G. H.

Tennant, H. J. (Berwickshire)

Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.

Rainy, A. Rolland

Thomas,SirA.(Glamorgan,E.)

M'Callum, John M.

Raphael, Herbert H.

Thomas,DavidAlfred(Merthyr)

M'Crae, George

Rea, Russell (Gloucester)

Thomasson. Franklin

M'Kenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald

Rea, Walter Russell (Scarboro'

Thompson,J.W.H.(Somerset,E

M'Laren, Sir C. B.(Leicester)

Rees, J. D.

Tomkinson. James

M'Laren, H.D. (Stafford, W.)

Rendall, Athelstan

Torrance, Sir A. M.

Maddison, Frederick

Richards,Thomas(W.Monm'th

Toulmin, George

Mallet, Charles E.

Richards,T.F.(Wolverhampt'n)

Trevelyan. Charles Philips

Manfield, Harry (Northants)

Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)

Verney, F. W.

Mansfield, H.Rendall(Lincoln)

Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)

Vivian, Henry

Markham, Arthur Basil

Robertson, Rt. Hn. E. (Dundee

Walsh, Stephen

Marks,G.Croydon (Launceston)

Robertson,SirG.Scott(Bradf'rd

Walters, John Tudor

Marnham, F. J.

Robertson. J. M. (Tyneside)

Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

Mason, A. E. W. (Coventry)

Robson, Sir William Snowdon

Warn,John(Stoke upon Trent)

Massie, J.

Roe, Sir Thomas

Ward, W. Dudley(Southampton

Micklem, Nathaniel

Rogers, F. E. Newman

Wardle, George J.

Molteno, Percy Alport

Rose, Charles Day

Waring, Walter

Mond, A.

Rowlands, J.

Wason, Eugene( Clackmannan)

Money, L. G. Chiozza

Russell, T. W.

Wason,JohnCatheart(Orkney)

Montgomery, H. G.

Rutherford, V. H. (Brentford)

Waterlow, D. S.

Morgan, G. Hay (Cornwall)

Samuel,Herbert L. (Cleveland)

Watt, Henry A.

Morgan, J.Lloyd(Carmarthen)

Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel)

White, George (Norfolk)

Morrell, Philip

Schwann, C. Duncan (Hyde)

White, J. D.( Dumbartonshire)

Morse, L. L.

Schwann, SirC.E.(Manchester

White, Luke (York, E. R.)

Morton, Alpheus Cleophas

Sears, J. E.

Whitehead, Rowland

Murray, James

Seaverns, J. H.

Whitley,John Henry(Halifax)

Napier, T. B.

Seddon, J.

Whittaker, Sir Thomas Palmer

Newnes, F. (Notts, Bassetlaw)

Shaw,Charles Edw.(Stafford)

Wiles, Thomas

Newnes.Sir George (Swansea)

Sherwell, Arthur James

Williams, J. (Glamorgan)

Nicholls, George

Shipman, Dr. John G.

Williams, Osmond(Merioneth)

Nicholson,CharlesN.(Doncaster

Silcock, Thomas Ball

Wills, Arthur Walters

Norton, Capt. Cecil William

Simon, John Allsebrook

Wilson,P. W.(St. Pancras, S.)

Nuttall. Harry

Sinclair, Rt.Hon. John

Winfrey, R.

O'Donnell, C. J. (Walworth)

Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie

Wood, T. M.'Kinnon

O'Grady, J.

Soames, Arthur Wellesley

TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr.

Parker. James (Halifax)

Spicer, Sir Albert

Whiteley and Mr. J. A.

Partington, Oswald

Stanger, H. Y.

Pease.

Paul, Herbert

Stanley, Hn. A. Lyulph(Chesh.

Pearce, Robert (Staffs. Leek)

Steadman, W. C.

The Chairman then proceeded successively to put forthwith the Questions on the Amendments moved by the Government of which notice had been given, and on the Questions necessary to dispose of the Business to be concluded.
Question put, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."
The Committee divided: —Ayes, 294; Noes, 113. (Division List No. 200.)

AYES.

Abraham, William (Rhondda)

Asquith,Rt. Hon. HerbertHenry

Barnes, G. N.

Acland, Francis Dyke

Astbury, John Meir

Barry, RedmondJ.(Tyrone, N.)

Adkins, W. Ryland D.

Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth),

Beauchamp, E.

Agnew, George William

Baker,Joseph A.(Finsbury,E.)

Beck, A. Cecil

Ainsworth, John Stirling

Balfour, Robert (Lanark)

Bell, Richard

Alden, Percy

Baring,Godfrey (Isle of Wight)

Bellairs, Carlyon

Allen,A.Acland (Christchurch)

Barker, John

Belloc, Hilaire Joseph Peter R.

Armitage, R.

Barlow, JohnEmmott(Somerset

Benn.Sir J.Williams(Devonp'rt

Armstrong, W. C. Heaton

Barlow, Percy (Bedford)

Benn,W.(T'w'r Hamlets,S.Geo.

Ashton, Thomas Gair

Barnard, E. B.

Bennett, E. N.

409

Berridge. T. H. D.

Furness, Sir Christopher

Manfield, Harry (Northants)

Bertram, Julius

Gardner.Col. Alan (Hereford, S

Mansfield.H. Rendall (Lincoln)

Bethell,SirJ.H.(Essex,Romf'rd)

Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herbert John

Markham, Arthur Basil

Bethell, T. R. (Essex, Maldon

Goddard, Daniel Ford

Marks,G.Croydon (Launceston)

Billson, Alfred

Gooch, George Peabody

Marnham, F. J.

Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine

Greenwood, G. (Peterborough)

Mason, A. E. W. (Coventry)

Black, Arthur W.

Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill

Massie, J.

Boulton, A. C. F

Gulland, John W.

Micklem, Nathaniel

Bowerman, C. W.

Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

Molteno, Percy Alport

Brace, William

Haldane, Rt. Hon. Richard B.

Mond, A.

Bramsdon, T. A.

Hall, Frederick

Money, L. G. Chiozza

Branch, James

Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Lewis

Montgomery, H. G.

Brigg, John

Hardy, George A. (Suffolk)

Morgan, G. Hay (Cornwall)

Brocklehurst, W, B.

Harmsworth, Cecil B. (Wore.)

Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen)

Brodie, H. C.

Harmsworth,R.L.(Caitln'ss-sh

Morrell, Philip

Brooke, Stopford

Hart-Davies, T.

Morse, L. L,

Brunner.J.F. L. (Lanes., Leigh

Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale)

Morton, Alpheus Cleophas

Bryce, J. Annan

Harwood, George

Murray, James

Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn

Haworth. Arthur A.

Napier, T. B.

Buckmaster, Stanley O.

Hazel, Dr. A. E.

Newnes, F. (Notts, Bassetlaw)

Burns, Rt. Hon. John

Hedges. A. Paget

Newnes, Sir George (Swansea)

Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas

Hemmerde, Edward George

Nicholson,Charles N.( Doncast'r

Buxton, Rt. Hn.Sydney Charles

Henderson,J.M.(Aberdeen, W.)

Norton, Capt. Cecil William

Byles, William Pollard

Henry, Charles S.

Nuttall, Harry

Cairns, Thomas

Herbert, T. Arnold (Wycombe)

O'Donnell, C. J. (Walworth)

Cameron, Robert

Higham, John Sharp

Parker, James (Halifax)

Carr-Gomm, H. W.

Hobart, Sir Robert

Partington, Oswald

Cawley, Sir Frederick

Hobhouse, Charles E. H.

Paul, Herbert

Chance. Frederick William

Holden. E. Hopkinson

Pearce, Robert (Stalls, Leek)

Channing, Sir Francis Allston

Holt, Richard Durning

Pearce, William (Limehouse)

Cheetham. John Frederick

Horniman, Emslie John

Pearson, Sir W. D.(Colchester)

Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R.

Horridge, Thomas Gardner

Philipps,J.Wynford (Pembroke

Cleland, J. W.

Howard, Hon. Geoffrey

Philipps, Owen, C (Pembroke)

Clough, William

Hyde, Clarendon

Pickersgill, Edward Hare

Coats.Sir T.Glen (Renfrew, W.

Idris, T. H. W.

Pollard, Dr.

Collins, Stephen (Lambeth)

Illingworth, Percy H.

Price, C.E.(Edinburgh,Central)

Collins,SirWm.J.(S.Pancras,W

Isaacs, Rufus Daniel

Priestley, Arthur (Grantham)

Cooper, G. J.

Jackson, R. S.

Priestley,W.E.B.( Bradford, E.)

Corbett,C.H.(Sussex,E.Grinst'd

Johnson, W. (Nuneaton)

Radford, G. H.

Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.

Jones,Sir D. Brynmor(Swansea)

Rainy, A. Rolland

Cory, Clifford John

Jones, Leif (Appleby)

Raphael, Herbert H.

Cotton, Sir H. J. S.

Jones, William (Carnarvonshire

Rea, Russell (Gloucester)

Cowan, W. H.

Kearley, Hudson E.

Rea, Walter Russell (Scarboro'

Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth)

Kekewich. Sir George

Rees, J. D.

Cremer, William Randal

King. Alfred John (Knutsford)

Rendall, Athelstan

Crombie, John William

Kitson, Rt. Hon. Sir James

Renton, Major Leslie

Crooks, William

Laidlaw, Robert

Richards,Thomas (W.Monm'th

Crosfield, A. H.

Lamb, EdmundG.(Leominster)

Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)

Crossley, William J.

Lambert, George

Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)

Davies,David(Montgomery Co.

Lamont. Norman

Robertson.Rt. Hn. E. (Dundee)

Davies, Ellis William (Eifion)

Layland-Barratt, Francis

Robertson,Sir G.Scott( Bradf'rd.

Davies, M. Vaughan (Cardigan)

Leese, Sir Joseph F.(Accrington

Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside)

Davies, Timothy (Fulham)

Lever, W. H.( Cheshire, Wirral)

Robson, Sir William Snowdon

Davies, W, Howell (Bristol, S.)

Levy, Maurice

Roe, Sir Thomas

Dewar, Arthur (Edinburgh, S.)

Lewis, John Herbert

Rogers, F. E. Newman

Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh.)

Lloyd-George;, Rt. Hon. David

Rose, Charles Day

Dickinson, W.H.(St.Pancras,N.

Lough, Thomas

Rowlands, J.

Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.

Lupton, Arnold

Russell, T. W.

Dunne,Major E. Martin(Walsall

Luttrell. Hugh Fownes

Samuel, Herbert L.(Cleveland)

Edwards, Clement (Denbigh)

Lyell, Charles Henry

Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel)

Edwards, Frank (Radnor)

Lynch, H. B.

Schwann, C. Duncan (Hyde)

Elibank, Master of

Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester)

Schwann.Sir C.E.(Manchester)

Erskine, David C.

Macdonald, J.M.(Falkirk B'ghs)

Sears, J. E.

Essex, R. W.

Mackarness, Frederic C.

Seaverns, J. H.

Esslemont, George Birnie

Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.

Seely, Major J. B.

Evans, Samuel T.

M'Callum, John M.

Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)

Eve, Harry Trelawney

M'Crae, George

Sherwell, Arthur James

Everett, R. Lacey

M'Kenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald

Shipman, Dr. John G.

Fenwick, Charles

M'Laren, Sir C. B. (Leicester)

Silcock, Thomas Ball

Findlay, Alexander

M'Laren, H. D. (Stafford. W.)

Simon, John Allsebrook

Foster,Rt. Hon. Sir Walter

M'Micking. Major G.

Sinclair, Rt. Hon. John

Fowler. Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

Maddison, Frederick

Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie

Fuller, John Michael F.

Mallet, Charles E.

Soames, Arthur Wellesley

410

411

Spicer, Sir Albert

Tomkinson, James

Whitehead, Rowland

Stanger, H. Y.

Torrance, Sir A. M.

Whitley,John Henry (Halifax)

Stanley.Hn.A.Lyulph (Chesh.)

Toulmin, George

Whittaker, Sir Thomas Palmer

Steadman, W. C.

Trevelyan, Charles Philips

Wiles, Thomas

Stewart, Halley (Greenock)

Verney, F. W.

Williams, J. (Glamorgan)

Stewart-Smith, D. (Kendal)

Vivian, Henry

Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)

Strachey, Sir Edward

Walters, John Tudor

Wills, Arthur Walters

Straus, B. S. (Mile End)

Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

Wilson, Hon.C.H.W.(Hull, W.)

Strauss. E. A. (Abingdon)

Ward,W.Dudley(Southampton

Wilson, P. W. (St, Pancras, S.)

Taylor, Austin (EastToxteth)

Waring, Walter

Winfrey, R.

Taylor,Theodore C. (Radcliffe)

Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan)

Wood, T. M'Kinnon

Tennant,SirEdward(Salisbury)

Wason,John Cathcart (Orkney)

TELLERS FOR THE AYES. —Mr.Whiteley and Mr. J. A. Pease.

Tennant, H. J. (Berwickshire)

Waterlow. D. S.

Thomas.Sir A.(Glamorgan, E.)

Watt, Henry A.

Thomas,David Alfred(Merthyr)

White, George (Norfolk)

Thomasson, Franklin

White, J. D. (Dumbartonshire)

Thompson, J.W.H.(Somerset, E.

White, Luke (York, E. R.)

NOES.

Anson, Sir William Reynell

Glover, Thomas

Pirie, Duncan V.

Arkwright, Jodn Stanhope

Hardy,Laurence(Kent,Ashford

Randles, Sir John Scurrah

Ashley,W. W.

Harrison-Broadley, H. B.

Ratcliff, Major R. F.

Aubrey-Fletcher.Rt.Hn. Sir H.

Hay, Hon. Claude George

Rawlinson,JohnFrederick Peel

Balcarres, Lord

Helmsley, Viscount

Richards.T. F. (Wolverhampton

Balfour.Rt Hn.A.J.(City Lond.

Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

Roberts,S. (Sheffield.Ecclesall)

Banbury, Sir Frederick George

Hervey.F.W.F.(BuryS.Edm'ds

Rutherford. W. W. (Liverpool)

Baring, Capt.Hn.G(Winchester)

Hill, Sir Clement(Shrewsbury)

Salter, Arthur Clavell

Beckett, Hon. Gervase

Hills, J. W.

Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert

Bignold, Sir Arthur

Houston, Robert Paterson

Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

Bowles, G. Stewart

Hudson, Walter

Seddon, J.

Boyle, Sir Edward

Jowett, F. W.

Sheffield,SirBerkeley George D.

Bridgeman, W. Clive

Kennaway,Rt.Hon.SirJohn H.

Sloan, Thomas Henry

Burdett-Coutts, W.

Kenyon-Slaney,Rt.Hon.Col.W.

Smith,Abel H. (Hertford, East

Butcher, Samuel Henry

Keswick, William

Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)

Carlile, E. Hildred

King.SirHenry Seymour (Hull)

Starkey, John R.

Castlereagh, Viscount

Lambton,Hon. Frederick Wm.

Summerbell, T.

Cave, George

Lane-Fox, G. R.

Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

Cavendish,Rt.Hn. Victor C. W.

Law, Andrew Bonar (Dulwich)

Talbot,Rt.Hn.J.G.(Oxf'dUniv.)

Cecil Evelyn (Aston Manor)

Lea,HughCecil (St.Pancras, E.)

Thomson, W. Mitchell- (Lanark

Chamberlain. Rt Hn.J.A.(Wore.

Lockwood, Rt. Hn. Lt. -Col. A. R.

Thornton, Percy M.

Clynes, J. R.

Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham)

Valentia, Viscount

Coates,E.Feetham (Lewisham)

Long,Rt.Hn.Walter(Dublin.S)

Walker,Col.W.H.(Lancashire)

Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

Londsale, John Brownlee

Walrond, Hon. Lionel

Corbett, A. Cameron(Glasgow)

Lowe, Sir Francis William

Walsh, Stephen

Courthope, G. Loyd

Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred

Ward,John (Stoke-upon-Trent)

Craig,Captain James(Down,E.)

Macpherson, J. T.

Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid.)

Craik, Sir Henry

Marks, H. H. (Kent)

Wardle, George J.

Dalrymple, Viscount

Mason, James F. (Windsor)

Williams, Col. R, (Dorset, W.

Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

Meysey-Thompson, E. C.

Willoughby de Eresby. Lord

Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

Middlemore,JohnThrogmorton

Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)

Duncan,C. (Barrow-in- Furness

Mildmay, Francis Bingham

Wortley, Rt. Hon. C.B.Stuart

Duncan, Robert( Lanark, Govan

Morpeth, Viscount

Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

Faber, George Denison (York)

Muntz, Sir Philip A.

Younger, George

Fardell, Sir T. George

Nicholls, George

TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Sir

Fell, Arthur

Nicholson,Wm.G. (Petersfield)

Alexander Acland-Hood and

Fletcher, J. S.

O'Grady, J.

Mr. Pike Pease.

Forester, Henry William

O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens

Gibbs, G. A. (Bristol,West)

Parker, Sir Gilbert. (Gravesend)

Gill, A. H.

Percy, Earl

Clause 7 amended.
Question put, "That the Clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill."
The Committee divided: —Ayes, 283' Noes, 123. (Division List No. 201.)

AYES.

Acland, Francis Dyke

Ainsworth, John Stirling

Armstrong, W. C. Heaton

Adkins, W. Ryland D.

Allen,A.Acland(Christchurch)

Ashton, Thomas Gair

Agnew, George William

Armitage, R.

Asquith, Rt. Hon. HerbertHenry

413

Astbury. John Meir

Edwards, Frank (Radnor)

Mackarness, Frederic C.

Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth)

Elibank, Master of

Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.

Baker, Joseph A. (Finsbury,E.)

Erskine, David C.

M'Callum, John M.

Balfour, Robert (Lanark)

Essex, R. W.

M'Crae, George

Baring,Godfrey(Isle of Wight)

Esslemont, George Birnie

M'Kenna. Rt. Hon. Reginald

Barker. John

Evans, Samuel T.

M'Laren, Sir C. B. (Leicester)

Barrow, JohnEmmott(Somerset

Eve, Harry Trelawney

M'Laren, H. D. (Stafford, W.)

Barlow, Percy (Bedford)

Everett, R. Lacey

M'Micking. Major G.

Barnard, E. B.

Fenwick, Charles

Maddison, Frederick

Barry, Redmond J. (Tyrone,N.)

Findlay. Alexander

Mallet, Charles E.

Beauchamp, R.

Foster, Rt, Hon. Sir Walter

Manfield, Harry (Northants)

Beck. A. Cecil

Fuller, John Michael F.

Mansfield,H. Rendall (Lincoln)

Bell, Richard

Furness, Sir Christopher

Markham, Arthur Basil

Bellairs. Carlyon

Gardner.Col. Alan (Hereford,S

Marks,G.Croydon (Launceston)

Belloc,HilaireJosephPeter R.

Gladstone.Rt. Hn.Herbert John

Marnham, F. J.

Benn,Sir.J. Williams(Devonp'rt

Goddard, Daniel Ford

Mason, A. E. W.(Coventry)

Benn,W.(T'w'rHamlets,S.Geo.

Gooch. George Peabody

Massie, J.

Bennett, E. N.

Greenwood, G. (Peterborough)

Micklem, Nathaniel

Berridge, T. H. D.

Gulland, John W.

Molteno, Percy Alport

Bertram, Julius

Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

Mond, A.

Bethell,SirJ.H.(Essex, Romf'rd

Haldane, Rt. Hon. Richard B.

Montgomery, H. G.

Bethell, T. R.(Essex,Maldon)

Hall, Frederick

Morgan, G. Hay (Cornwall)

Billson, Alfred

Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Lewis

Morgan,J.Lloyd (Carmarthen)

Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine

Hardy, George A. (Suffolk)

Morrell, Philip

Black, Arthur W.

Harmsworth, Cecil B. (Wore'r)

Morse, L. L.

Boulton, A. C. F.

Harmsworth,R.L.(Caithn'ss-sh

Morton, Alpheus Cleophas

Brace, William

Hart-Davies, T.

Murray, James

Bramsdon, T. A.

Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale)

Napier, T. B.

Branch, James

Harwood, George

Newnes, F. (Notts, Bassetlaw)

Brigg, John

Haworth, Arthur A.

Newnes, Sir George (Swansea)

Brocklehurst, W. B.

Hazel, Dr. A. E.

Nicholls, George

Brodie, H. C.

Hedges, A. Paget

Nicholson,Charles N.(Doncast'r

Brooke, Stopford

Hemmerde, Edward George

Norton, Captain Cecil William

Brunner,J.F.L.(Lancs.,Leigh)

Henry, Charles S.

Nuttall, Harry

Bryce, J. Annan

Herbert,Colonellvor (Mon.,S.)

O'Donnell, C.J. (Walworth)

Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn

Herbert, T. Arnold (Wycombe)

Partington, Oswald

Buckmaster. Stanley O.

Higham, John Sharp

Paul, Herbert

Burns, Rt. Hon. John

Hobart, Sir Robert

Pearce, Robert (Staffs. Leek)

Burl, Rt. Hon. Thomas

Hobhouse, Charles E. H.

Pearce, William (Limehouse)

Buxton.Rt.Hn.SydneyCharles

Holden. E. Hopkinson

Pearson, Sir W. D. (Colchester)

Carr-Gomm, H. W.

Holt, Richard Durning

Philipps,J.Wynford (Pembroke

Cawley, Sir Frederick

Horniman, Emslie John

Philipps, Owen C. (Pembroke;)

Chance, Frederick William

Horridge, Thomas Gardner

Pickersgill, Edward Hare

Channing. Sir Francis Allston

Howard, Hon. Geoffrey

Pirie, Duncan V.

Cheetham, John Frederick

Hyde, Clarendon

Pollard, Dr.

Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R.

Idris, T. H. W.

Price.C.E. (Edinburgh,Central)

Cleland, J. W.

Illingworth, Percy H.

Priestley, Arthur (Grantham)

Clough, William

Isaacs, Rufus Daniel

Priestley, W. E. B.( Bradford, E.)

Coats,SirT.Glen(Renfrew,W.)

Jackson, R. S.

Radford, G. H.

Collins, Stephen (Lambeth)

Johnson, W. (Nuneaton)

Rainy, A. Rolland

Collins,SirWm.J.(S.Pancras,W.

Jones,SirD.Brynmor (Swansea)

Raphael, Herbert H,

Cooper, G. J.

Jones, Leif (Appleby)

Rea, Russell (Gloucester)

Corbett,C.H(Sussex,E.Grinst'd

Jones, William(Canarvonshire)

Rea, Walter Russell (Scarboro'

Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.

Kearley, Hudson E.

Rees, J. D.

Cory, Clifford John

Kekewich, Sir George

Renton, Major Leslie

Cotton, Sir H. J. S.

King, Alfred John (Knutsford)

Richards,Thomas (W.Monm'th

Cowan, W. H.

Kitson, Rt. Hon. Sir James

Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)

Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth)

Laidlaw, Robert

Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)

Cremer, William Randal

Lamb, Edmund G. (Leominst'r

Robertson, Rt. Hn. E.(Dundee

Crombie, John William

Lambert, George

Robertson.Sir G.Scott( Bradf'rd

Crosfield, A. H.

Lamont, Norman

Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside)

Crossley, William J.

Layland-Barratt, Francis

Robson, Sir WilliaD Snowdon

Davies, David(Montgomery Co.

Leese,SirJosephF.(Accrington

Roe, Sir Thomas

Davies, Ellis William (Eifion)

Lever, W.H.(Cheshire,Wirral)

Rogers, F. E. Newman

Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardigan

Levy, Maurice

Rose, Charles Day

Davies, Timothy (Fulham)

Lewis, John Herbert

Rowlands, J.

Davies, W. Howell(Bristol, S.)

Lloyd-George, Rt. Hon. David

Russell, T. W.

Dewar, Arthur (Edinbargh, S.

Lough, Thomas

Rutherford, V. H. (Brentford)

Dewar, John A, (Inverness-sh.

Lupton, Arnold

Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)

Dickinson.W.H.(St, Pancras, N.

Luttrell, Hugh Fownes

Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel)

Dickson-Poynder,SirJohn P.

Lyell, Charles Henry

Schwann, C. Duncan (Hyde)

Dunne. MajorEMartin(Walsall

Lynch, H. B.

Schwann.Sir C.E.(Manchester)

Edwards, Clement (Denbigh)

Macdonald.J.M.(FalkirkB'ghs)

Sears, J. E,

414

415

Seaverns, J. H.

Taylor,Theodore C.(Radcliffe)

Watt, Henry A.

Seely, Major J. B.

Tennant,Sir Edward(Salisbury

White, George (Norfolk)

Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)

Tennant, H. J. (Berwickshire)

White, J.D.(Dumbartonshire)

Sherwell, Arthur James

Thomas,Sir A.(Glamorgan, E)

White, Luke (York, E. R.)

Shipman, Dr. John G.

Thomas,David Alfred (Merthyr

Whitehead, Rowland

Silcock, Thomas Ball

Thomasson, Franklin '

Whitley,John Henry (Halifax)

Simon, John Allsebrook

Thompson,J.W.H.(Somerset,E.

Whittaker, Sir Thomas Palmer)

Sinclair, Rt. Hon. John

Tomkinson, James

Wiles, Thomas

Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie

Torrance, Sir A. M.

Williams, J. (Glamorgan)

Soames. Arthur Wellesley

Toulmin, George

Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)

Spicer, Sir Albert

Trevelyan, Charles Philips

Wills, Arthur Walters

Stanger, H. Y.

Verney, F. W.

Wilson,Hon. C.H.W.(Hull,W.)

Stanley,Hn. A.Lyulph (Chesh.)

Vivian, Henry

Wilson, P. W. (St. Pancras, S.)

Steadman, W, C.

Walters, John Tudor

Winfrey, R.

Stewart, Halley (Greenock)

Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

Wood, T. M'Kinnon

Stewart-Smith, D. (Kendal)

Ward,W. Dudley (Southampton

Strachey, Sir Edward

Waring, Walter

TELLERS FOR THE AYES. —MR. Whiteley and Mr. J. A. Pease.

Straus, B. S. (Mile End)

Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan)

Strauss, K. A. (Abingdon)

Wason,John Cathcart (Orkney)

Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth)

Waterlow, D. S.

NOES.

Abraham, William (Rhondda)

Fletcher, J. S.

Parker, James (Halifax)

Alden, Percy

Forster, William Henry

Pease,Herbert Pike( Darlington

Anson, Sir William Reynell

Gibbs, G. A. (Bristol, West)

Percy, Earl

Arkwright, John Stanhope

Gill, A. H.

Randles, Sir John Scurrah

Ashley, W. W.

Glover, Thomas

Ratcliff. Major R. F.

Aubrey-Fletcher,Rt.Hn. Sir H.

Hardy,Laurence (Kent,Ashford

Rawlinson,John Frederick Peel

Balcarres, Lord

Harrison-Broadley, H. B.

Kendall, Athelstan

Balfour.Rt Hn.A.J.(City Lond.

Hay, Hon. Claude George

Richards.T.F. (Wolverhampt'n

Banbury,Sir Frederick George

Helmsley, Viscount

Roberts, S.(Sheffield,Ecclesall)

Baring,Capt. Hn. G (Winchester

Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool)

Barnes, G. N.

Hervey,F.W.F.(BuryS.Edmd's

Salter, Arthur Clavell

Beckett, Hon. Gervas

Hill, Sir Clement (Shrewsbury)

Sassoon. Sir Edward Albert

Bignold, Sir Arthur

Hills, J. W.

Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

Bowerman, C. W.

Houston, Robert Paterson

Seddon, J.

Bowles, G. Stewart

Hudson, Walter

Sheffield,Sir BerkeleyGeorge D.

Boyle, Sir Edward

Hunt, Rowland

Sloan, Thomas Henry

Bridgeman, W. Clive

Jowett, F. W.

Smith, Abel H.(Hereford,East)

Burdett-Coutts, W.

Kennaway,Rt, Hn.Sir John H.

Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)

Butcher, Samuel Henry

Kenyon-Slaney.Rt. Hn. Col.W.

Starkey, John R.

Byles, William Pollard

Keswick, William

Summerbell, T.

Carlile, E. Hildred

King,Sir HenrySeymour (Hull)

Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

Castlereagh, Viscount

Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm.

Talbot,Rt.Hn.J.G.(Oxf'dUniv.

Cave, George

Lane-Fox, G. R.

Thomson, W. Mitchell (Lanark

Cavendish, Rt.Hn. Victor C,W.

Law Andrew Bonar (Dulwich)

Thornton. Percy M.

Cecil Evelyn (Aston Manor)

Lea,Hugh Cecil (St.Pancras K)

Vincent, Col. Sir C. E. Howard

Chamberlain, Kt.Hn.J.A.(Wore.

Lockwood,Rt.Hn.Lt,-Col. A.R.

Walker, Col.W.H. (Lancashire)

Chaplin. Rt. Hon. Henry

Long,Col.Charles W.(Evesham)

Walrond, Hon. Lionel

Clynes, J. R..

Long,Rt.Hon. Walter (Dublin.S

Walsh, Stephen

Coates,E. Feetham (Lewisham)

Lonsdale, John Brownlee

Ward,John (Stoke upon Trent)

Cochrane. Hon. Thus. H. A. E.

Lowe, Sir Francis William

Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid)

Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow)

Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred

Wardle, George J.

Courthope, G. Loyd

Macdonald, J. R (Leicester)

Williams. Col R. (Dorset. W.)

Craig,Captain James (Down,E

Macpherson, J. T.

Willoughby de Erseby, Lord

Craik, Sir Henry

Marks, H. H. (Kent)

Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)

Crooks, William

Mason, James F. (Windsor)

Wortley.Rt, Hon. C. B. Stuart

Dalrymple, Viscount

Meysey-Thompson, E. C.

Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

Dilke, Rt, Hon. Sir Charles

Middlemore,JohnThrogmorton

Younger, George

Douglas, Rt, Hon. A. Akers

Mildmay, Francis Bingham

Tellers for the Noes. — Sir

Duncan,C (Barrow-in-Furness)

Morpeth, Viscount

Alexander Acland-Hood and

Duncan,Robert(Lanark,Govan

Nicholson, Wm. G.(Petersfield)

Viscount Valentia.

Faber, George Denison (York)

O'Grady, J.

Fardell, Sir T. George

O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens

Fell, Arthur

Parker,Sir Gilbert (Gravesend)

Whereupon the Chairman left the Chair to make his Report to the House.
Committee report Progress; to sit again To-morrow.

IMPORTED WATCH CASES BILL.
Read a second time and committed to a Standing Committee.
Adjourned at a quarter after Eleven of the Clock