§ THE PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD OF EDUCATION (Mr. McKENNA,) Monmouthshire, N.The Bill which I ask leave to introduce is a one-clause measure designed for the purpose of transferring from the local education authority to the managers the cost of giving denominational instruction in non-provided schools. In principle the Bill will confirm the judgment of the Court of Appeal in the West Riding case. There is, however, one point of distinction between the present proposal and what would have been the law if the judgment of the Court of Appeal had not been reversed. It is proposed now to determine the cost of giving denominational instruction as a definite fraction of the salary of any teacher who gives religious instruction in a school other than that which is authorised under the Cowper-Temple clause of the Act of 1870. The fraction which I 1454 have taken—namely, one-fifteenth of the teacher's salary—is the nearest calculation I can make of what is the actual cost of giving such instruction in any local authority's area. I readily admit that this fraction will not necessarily meet the cost of giving such instruction in any particular school, and it is impossible that any definite fraction which I could name could meet that cost. I have taken the charge over the whole rating area because by doing so I shall be able at once to get rid of one of the glaring defects of the present law; and at the same time I shall be able to meet the particular difficulty of those who feel themselves prevented by their consciences from paying rates in support of denominational instruction of which they disapprove. The reason why I have taken the method of reckoning over the whole area instead of reckoning the charge for each particular school is to avoid the possibility of disputes. It is an unfortunate fact that the relations between the local authorities and the managers of non-provided schools are not always of the most friendly kind; and it might happen if it were left to them to make an agreement as to the amount in each school, that no agreement might be made, or that an agreement might be come to which would be oppressive to the managers. On the other hand, where the local authorities are on too good terms with the managers of non-provided schools, they might make arrangements which would be unfair to the ratepayers. Provided the House is satisfied that no charge will fall upon the rates of any area for which the rate is levied, I think it will be held that the Bill suffices to meet the particular difficulty which we have before us. It must not be supposed that this measure is intended in any sense to be a settlement of the education question. After the experience of my right hon. friend the Chief Secretary, who in his comprehensive and generous measure of last session went to the extreme limit of concession, it is obvious that no legislative settlement can be obtained until the relations between this House and another place have been readjusted. Though the Government may not feel it to be in their immediate power to establish the educational system of this country on the basis of full popular control and the complete abolition of religious tests on the appointment of teachers, we adhere firmly to those principles; and we do not relinquish them an 1455 iota because we seek by this small measure to remove one particular evil which is offensive to the consciences of a large number of our fellow-citizens. This Bill supplies the remedy for one evil only. It takes back from the managers of non-provided schools but a small portion of the public money which was placed at their disposal by the Act of 1902. In respect of denominational instruction, and in that respect only, it restores the law to the condition in which it stood thirty-two years after the Act of 1870 was passed. Whatever else may be said of this Bill, it cannot be alleged that it opens any new principle. I am unwilling to enter into any controversial matter, but I am bound to refer to one statement which has been made very strongly in anticipation of this Bill. It has been said we are proposing to leave the Nonconformist religion on the rates while all other religion is to be paid for privately. Nothing I can say, I am afraid, would disabuse the minds of those who are responsible for that absurdity. Nonconformists, after all, must be the best judges of what is the religion of their own denomination, and I know of no Nonconformist who would admit that Cowper-Temple instruction covered the doctrines of his particular faith. I have observed that none but Churchmen, who are not experts in the Nonconformist faith, have ever committed themselves to the statement that Wesleyans, Baptists, Congregationalists, Presbyterians, and Calvinistic Methodists—to name only a few of the Nonconformist denominations—are all included in the comprehensive name of Mr. Cowper-Temple, who, as a matter of fact, was a Churchman. If it be a fact that Cowper-Temple instruction is Nonconformist religion, it is surely strange that Nonconformists should not insist, as Churchmen do, upon the teachers who give that instruction being appointed by themselves. I should be ready to admit that there might be something in this trumped-up grievance if we found that all the teachers appointed in the council schools were appointed by Nonconformists from among Nonconformists. There remains but one other small matter for me to mention, and that is as to the method by which the one-fifteenth of the teacher's salary is to be paid. In every case the full salary will be paid to the teacher, and the one- 1456 fifteenth will be compulsorily recovered from the managers. The managers will not be personally liable to pay this one-fifteenth, but if they fail to do so the non-provided school in question will no longer be maintained as a public elementary school. I think, Sir, I have covered all the points in this one-clause Bill, and it remains only for me to ask the leave of the House to introduce it.
§ Motion made, and Question proposed, "That leave be given to bring in a Bill to make provision for relieving the local education authority of the cost of giving; Special Religious Instruction in schools not provided by the authority."—(Mr. McKenna.)
§ MR. A. J. BALFOUR (City of London)The custom in this House has invariably been, when a Minister takes advantage of the ten minutes rule to introduce a measure, that his speech, necessarily brief, should be as uncontroversial as possible and that he should reserve any remarks of an embittered character until a later stage of the measure. Although the right hon. Gentleman has not thought fit on the present occasion to follow that very salutary precedent, I certainly do not rise for the purpose of suggesting to any hon. friends of mine that they should divide against the first reading of the Bill. I do not think the practice of dividing against the first reading of a Bill should be encouraged; it has fallen almost into desuetude, and I certainly do not wish to see it revived. But I must make one or two observations upon the speech to which we have just listened. The purpose of the right hon. Gentleman is one with which, I conceive, every Member of this House will sympathise. I understand that the avowed object of the Bill is to relieve the consciences of a certain number of our fellow-citizens. That is an excellent object, and so far I have nothing but sympathy for the right hon. Gentleman. But I have two observations to make on this matter of conscience. One is, is he quite sure that he will relieve the consciences of the Nonconformists, in whose behalf avowedly this Bill has been framed? I, at all events, have read a speech of Mr. Hirst Hollowell [Ministerial cries of "Oh!"]—at all events, he has a conscience, and I suppose 1457 if we can relieve his conscience we shall desire to relieve it. He laid it down in the most explicit manner possible that a measure of the precise character of the Bill proposed by the right hon. Gentleman will not satisfy his conscience, and he will be obliged to continue the attitude of passive resistance. Therefore, I conceive that there may be some Nonconformists—I hope they are few—who, even if this Bill passes in the shape in which it has been introduced, will not have their consciences relieved by it. And is the right hon. Gentleman quite sure that he will not bring into existence another set of passive resisters—people who also have consciences and who do not take his view of the relation of Cowper-Temple teaching to the religion in which they believe? The right hon. Gentleman has gone out of his way to exclaim in rather strong language how utterly foolish and wrong-headed is the action of those who declare that Cowper-Temple Eaching is the Nonconformist religion and how wrong it is to suggest that the Nonconformist religion is supported out of the rates while no other religion is so supported. The right hon. Gentleman has wholly mistaken the attitude of those who may possibly—I hope they will not—become passive resisters on the other side. It is not that they confuse the miscellaneous forms of religious teaching embraced under the name of Cowper-Temple. They do not confuse any of those forms with the name of Presbyterian, or Baptist, or Wesleyan, or any other Nonconformist sect. What they say is this, "Out of the rates you pay for the religious teaching of the Nonconformist in the shape which he likes, and you compel us to pay for religious teaching in the form we like." That cannot be denied. Nobody says that Cowper-Temple teaching is bad teaching, or that Wesleyan teaching is bad teaching. What they have said is that out of the rates, under the system proposed by the right hon. Gentleman, the ratepayer, be he Roman Catholic, or belonging to the English Church, or belonging to no Church, is obliged to pay for the kind of religious teaching which he does not want for his children, but which other people want for their children. All that those who differ from that desire is that there should be equity as 1458 between all parents and children. The right hon. Gentleman is well aware that the Archbishop of Canterbury and many other people have done their very best to prevent anything in the nature of passive resistance arising on the other side from that which now exercises passive resistance. But if I rightly understand this Bill the ratepayer of this country who happens to be a Roman Catholic or happens to belong to the Church of England, will have not only to pay rates for the form of education that satisfies some other parent and does not satisfy him, but he will have to pay twice over for the religion that does satisfy him. Under the Bill of last year the Government suggested that every denomination should pay for its own denominational teaching, but they took the cost of the repairs of the schools off the denomination. I have always held, as the House is aware, that at this moment neither Roman Catholics, nor the Church of England, nor the Wesleyans, do put the cost of the religious teaching that they like upon the rates. The buildings that they give over to the public for the purpose of carrying on elementary education pay over and over again for the cost of their denominational teaching. You now propose to take their buildings for nothing and throw the whole cost of the repair of those buildings on them, and in addition make them pay, first, rates for religious teaching which they do not want to give their children, and then twice over for religious teaching which they are asking that their children should receive. I am afraid I do not see that we are going to have religious peace from this proposal. For my own part, so anxious am I—though I do always get credit for it—to see religious peace introduced into the great area of educational controversy that there are many sacrifices which I would gladly see denominationalists submit to if only peace could be obtained. But I must frankly say that neither in the tone of the speech which we have just heard nor in the specific provisions of the Bill which we have just had foreshadowed do I see that the peace which is desired by most of us, and which ought to be desired by all, is likely to be brought much nearer.
§ Question put.
1460§ The House divided:—Ayes, 264; Noes, 109. (Division List No. 21.)
1461| AYES. | ||
| Acland, Francis Dyke | Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P. | Lever, W. H.(Cheshire, Wirral) |
| Agnew, George William | Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles | Levy, Maurice |
| Ainsworth, John Stirling | Duckworth, James | Lewis, John Herbert |
| Alden, Percy | Duncan, C.(Barrow-in-Furness) | Lloyd-George. Rt. Hn. David |
| Allen, Charles P. (Stroud) | Dunn, A. Edward (Camborne) | Lough, Thomas |
| Ashton, Thomas Gair | Edwards, Enoch (Hanley) | Lupton, Arnold |
| Asquith, Rt. Hn. Herb. Henry | Elibank, Master of | Luttrell, Hugh Fownes |
| Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth) | Ellis, Rt. Hn. John Edward | Lyell, Charles Henry |
| Baker, Joseph A. (Finsbury, E.) | Erskine, David C. | Lynch, H. B. |
| Balfour, Robert (Lanark) | Everett, R. Lacey | Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester) |
| Barker, John | Faber, G. H. (Boston). | Macdonald. JM(Falkirk Burghs |
| Barlow, Percy (Bedford) | Fenwick, Charles | Mackarness, Frederic C. |
| Barnard E. B. | Ferens, T. R. | Maclean, Donald |
| Barnes, G. N. | Ferguson, R. C. Munro | Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J. |
| Beale, W. P. | Fetherstonhaugh, Godfrey | M'Callum, John M. |
| Beck, A. Cecil | Fiennes, Hon. Eustace | M'Crae, George |
| Bell, Richard | Findlay, Alexander | M'Kenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald |
| Bellairs, Carlyon | Foster, Rt. Hon. Sir Walter | M'Laren. H. D. (Stafford, W.) |
| Benn, W. (T w rHamlets,S. Geo. | Fuller, John Michael F. | Maddison, Frederick |
| Bethell. T. R. (Essex, Maldon) | Fullerton, Hugh | Mallet, Charles E. |
| Billson, Alfred | Gardner, Col. Alan (Hereford,S | Manfield, Harry (Northants) |
| Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine | Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herb. John | Mansfield, H. Rendall (Lincoln |
| Black, Arthur W. | Glendinning, R. G. | Markham, Arthur Basil |
| Bowerman, C. W, | Goddard, Daniel Ford | Marnham. F. J. |
| Brace, William | Gooch, George Peabody | Massie, J. |
| Bramsdon, T. A. | Greenwood, G. (Peterborough) | Menzies, Walter |
| Brigg, John | Griffith, Ellis J. | Molteno, Percy Alport |
| Brocklehurst, W. B. | Gulland, John W. | Money, L. G. Chiozza |
| Brooke, Stopford | Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton | Montagu, E. S. |
| Brunner, J. F. L. (Lancs, Leigh | Haldane. Rt. Hn. Richard B. | Montgomery, H. G. |
| Brunner, Rt.Hn.Sir JT (Cheshire | Hall, Frederick | Morgan, G. Hay (Cornwall) |
| Bryce, J. Annan | Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Lewis | Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen |
| Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn | Hardie, J. Keir (Merthyr Tydvil | Morrell, Philip |
| Burns, Rt. Hon. John | Harvey, W.E. (Derbyshire, N. E. | Morse, L. L. |
| Burnyeat, W. J. D. | Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth) | Morton, Alpheus Cleophas |
| Buxton, Rt. Hn. Sydney Chas. | Haworth.Arthur A. | Myer, Horatio |
| Byles, William Pollard | Hazel, Dr. A. E. | Nicholls, George |
| Cameron, Robert | Hedges, A. Paget | Norton, Capt. Cecil William |
| Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H. | Henderson, Arthur (Durham) | Parker, James (Halifax) |
| Carr-Gomm, H. W. | Henry, Charles S. | Partington, Oswald |
| Causton, Rt. Hn. Richard K. | Herbert, Colonel Ivor (Mon., S. | Paul, Herbert |
| Cawley, Sir Frederick | Higham. John Sharp | Perks, Robert William |
| Chance, Frederick William | Hobart, Sir Robert | Philipps, Owen C. (Pembroke) |
| Channing, Sir Francis Allston | Hodge, John | Pickersgill, Edward Hare |
| Cheetham, John Frederick | Hooper, A. G. | Pirie, Duncan V. |
| Cherry, Rt. Hn. R. R. | Hope, John Deans (Fife, West) | Pollard, Dr. |
| Churchill, Winston Spencer | Howard, Hon. Geoffrey | Price, C. E. (Edinb'gh, Central) |
| Clarke, C. Goddard | Hudson, Walter | Price, Robert John (Norfolk,E. |
| Clough, William | Hyde, Clarendon | Priestley. W. E. B. (Bradford, E |
| Clynes, J. R. | Idris, T. H. W. | Pullar, Sir Robert |
| Coats, Sir T. Glen (Renfrew, W | Jacoby, Sir James Alfred | Rainy, A. Rolland |
| Collins, Stephen (Lambeth) | Jardine, Sir J. | Raphael, Herbert H. |
| Cooper, G. J. | Jenkins, J. | Rees, J. D. |
| Corbett, CH (Sussex E. Grinst'd) | Johnson, W. (Nuneaton) | Rendall, Athelstan |
| Cotton, Sir H. J. S. | Jones, Sir D. Brynmor (Swansea | Richards, Thomas (W. Monmth |
| Cowan, H. | Jones, Leif (Appleby) | Richards.T. F. (Wolverh'mpt'n) |
| Cox, Harold | Jones, Wm. (Carnarvonshire) | Richardson, A. |
| Cremer, William Randal | Kearley, Hudson E. | Rickett, J. Compton |
| Crombie, John William | Kelley, George D. | Roberts, Chas. H. (Lincoln) |
| Crossley, William J. | Kincaid-Smith, Captain | Roberts, G. H. (Norwich) |
| Dalmeny, Lord | King, Alfred John (Knutsford) | Robertson, Rt. Hn. E. (Dundee |
| Dalziel, James Henry | Kitson, Rt. Hn. Sir James | Robertson. J. M. (Tyneside) |
| Davies, Ellis William (Eifion) | Laidlaw, Robert | Robinson, S. |
| Davies, M. Vaughan- (Cardigan | Lamb, Edmund G. (Leominster) | Robson, Sir William Snowdon |
| Davies, Timothy (Fulham) | Lambert, George | Roe, Sir Thomas |
| Dewar, Arthur (Edinburgh, S.) | Leese, Sir J. F. (Accrington) | Rogers. F. E. Newman |
| Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh. | Lehmann, R. C. | Rose, Charles Day |
| Rowlands, J. | Taylor, John W. (Durham) | Watt, H. Anderson |
| Runciman, Walter | Tennant, Sir Ed. (Salisbury) | Wedgwood, Josiah C. |
| Rutherford, V. H. (Brentford) | Tennant, H. J. (Berwickshire) | Weir, James Galloway |
| Samuel, Herb. L. (Cleveland) | Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E. | Whitbread, Howard |
| Schwann, C. Duncan (Hyde) | Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.) | White, George (Norfolk) |
| Seaverns, J. H. | Thomas, David A. (Merthyr) | Whitley,J. H. (Halifax) |
| Seely, Major J. B. | Thomasson, Franklin | Wilkie, Alexander |
| Shaw, Rt. Hn. T. (Hawick B. | Thorne, William | Williams, J. (Glamorgan) |
| Sherwell, Arthur James | Tomkinson, James | Williams, L. (Carmarthen) |
| Shipman, Dr. John G. | Toulmin, George | Williams, Osmond (Merioneth) |
| Sinclair, Rt. Hon. John | Trevelyan, Charles Philips | Williamson, A. |
| Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie | Verney, F. W. | Wills. Arthur Walters |
| Snowden, S. | Wadsworth, J | Wilson, J. W. (Worcestersh, N. |
| Soares, Ernest J. | Walker, H. De R. (Leicester) | Wilson, P. W. (St. Pancras, S.) |
| Spicer, Sir Albert | Walters, John Tudor | Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton) |
| Stanger, H. Y. | Walton, Sir John L. (Leeds, S.) | Winfrey, R. |
| Stanley, Hn. A. Lyulph (Chesh. | Ward,J. (Stoke upon Trent) | Yoxall, James Henry |
| Stewart, Halley (Greenock) | Ward, W. Dudley (Southamptn | |
| Strachey, Sir Edward | Wardle, George J. | TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr Whiteley and Mr. J. A. Pease |
| Straus, B. S. (Mile End) | Waring, Walter | |
| Strauss, E. A. (Abingdon) | Warner, Thomas Courtenay T. | |
| Summerbell, T. | Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan) | |
| Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth) | Wason, John Cathcart; (Orkney | |
| NOES. | ||
| Abraham, Wm. (Cork, N. E.) | Fell, Arthur | Middlemore, J. Throgmorton. |
| Acland-Hood, Rt. Hn. Sir Alex.F. | Ffrench, Peter | Murphy, John |
| Ambrose, Robert | Finch, Rt. Hn. George H. | Nolan, Joseph |
| Anstruther-Gray, Major | Fletcher, J. S. | Brien, K. (Tipperary, Mid.) |
| Arkwright, John Stanhope | Flynn, James Christopher | O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W. |
| Ashley, W. W. | Gardner, Ernest (Berks, East) | O'Connor, J. (Kildare, N.) |
| Balcarres, Lord | Gibbs, G. A. (Bristol, West) | O'Dowd, John |
| Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey) | Ginnell, L. | O'Kelly, Jas. (Roscommon, N. |
| Banbury, Sir Frederick George | Gwynn, Stephen Lucius | O'Shaughnessy, P. J. |
| Barry, E. (Cork, S.) | Halpin, J. | Parker, Sir G. (Gravesend) |
| Beach, Hn. Michael Hugh H. | Hamilton, Marquess of | Power, Patrick Joseph |
| Beckett, Hon. Gervase | Harrison-Broadley, Col. H. B. | Ratcliff, Major R. F. |
| Bignold, Sir Arthur | Hayden, John Patrick | Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel |
| Boland, John | Heaton, John Henniker | Reddy, M. |
| Bottomley, Horatio | Helmsley, Viscount | Redmond, J. E. (Waterford) |
| Bowles, G. Stewart | Hervey, F. W. F. (BurySEdmds | Redmond, William (Clare) |
| Bridgeman, W. Clive | Hills, J. W. | Remnant, Jas. Farquharson |
| Bull, Sir William James | Hogan, Michael | Rothschild, Hn. Lionel Walter |
| Burke, E. Haviland- | Houston, Robert Paterson | Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.) |
| Butcher, Samuel Henry | Hunt, Rowland | Staveley-Hill, Henry (Staff'sh. |
| Campbell, Rt. Hon. J. H. M. | Joyce, Michael | Sullivan, Donal |
| Castlereagh, Viscount | Kennedy, Vincent Paul | Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester) |
| Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) | Kenyon-Slaney, Rt. Hon.ColW | Talbot, Rt. Hn. JG (Oxfd Univ.) |
| Cecil, Lord R. (Marylebone, R.) | Kilbride, Denis | Tuke, Sir John Batty |
| Courthope, G. Loyd | Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, W.) | Vincent, Col. Sir C. E. Howard |
| Cullinan, J. | Lockwood, Rt.Hn. Lt-ColA. R. | Waldron, Laurence Ambrose |
| Dalrymple, Viscount | Long, Col. Chas. W. (Evesham) | Walker, Col. W.H.(Lancashire) |
| Delany, William | Lowe, Sir Francis William | Walrond, Hon. Lionel |
| Dillon, John | Lundon, W. | Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.) |
| Dixon-Hartland, Sir Fred D. | MacVeagh, Jeremiah (Down, S. | Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm |
| Dolan, Charles Joseph | MacVeigh, Chas. (Donegal, E.) | Wortley, Rt. Hn. C. B. Stuart- |
| Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- | M'Kean, John | Young, Samuel |
| Du Cros, Harvey | M'Killop,W. | Younger, George |
| Duffy, William J. | Magnus, Sir Philip | |
| Duncan,Robert(Lanark, Govan | Marks, H. H. (Kent) | TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr. Patrick O'Brien and Air. Mooney. |
| Faber, George Denison (York) | Mason, James F. (Windsor) | |
| Faber, Capt, W. V. (Hants. W.) | Meagher, Michael | |
| Farrell, James Patrick | Meysey-Thompson, E. C. |
§ Bill ordered to be brought in by Mr. McKenna, Mr. Burns, and Mr. Lough.