Commons Sitting of 27 August 1907

Preamble
The House met at a quarter before Three of the Clock.
PETITIONS.
  CONGO FREE STATE.
  Petition from Manchester, for protection of the native races; to lie upon the Table.
  EDUCATION (SCOTLAND) BILL.
  Petition from Stirling, for alteration; to lie upon the Table.
RETURNS, REPORTS, ETC.
  POSTAL AGREEMENT (BULGARIA).
  Copy presented, of Postal Agreement for an exchange of Postal and Telegraph Money Orders between the Post Office of Great Britain and Ireland and the Post Office of Bulgaria [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
  MERCANTILE MARINE.
  Copy presented, of Report of the Committee appointed by the Board of Trade to inquire into the Supply and Training of Boy Seamen for the Mercantile Marine. Vol. I., Report. Vol. II, Minutes of Evidence and Appendix [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
  MERCHANT SHIPPING, 1906.
  Return presented, relative thereto [ordered 26th August; Mr. Lloyd-George]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 348.]
  COAL TABLES, 1906.
  Return presented, relative thereto [ordered 26th August; Mr. Lloyd-George]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 349.]
  IRON AND STEEL, 1906.
  Return presented, relative thereto [ordered 26th August; Mr. Lloyd-George]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 350.]
  EXPORTS TO CHINA AND SOUTH AMERICA.
  Return presented, relative thereto [ordered 26th August; Mr. Lloyd-George]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 351.]
  RAILWAY SERVANTS (HOURS OF LABOUR).
  Copy presented, of Report by the Board of Trade of their Proceedings under the Railway Regulation Act, 1893, during the year ended 27th July, 1907 [by Act]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 352.]
  PILOTAGE.
  Copy presented, of Abstract of Returns relating to Pilots and Pilotage in the United Kingdom (in continuation of Parliamentary Paper, No. 221 of Session 1906) as furnished by the various Pilotage Authorities [by Act]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 353.]
  HARWICH HARBOUR.
  Copy presented, of Abstract of the Accounts of the Receipts and Expenditure of the Harwich Harbour Conservancy Board from the time of their incorporation down to and inclusive of the 31st March, 1907 [by Act]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 354.]
  TRADE REPORTS (ANNUAL SERIES).
  Copies presented, of Diplomatic and Consular Reports, Annual Series, Nos. 3909 to 3916 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
  TREATY SERIES (No. 26, 1907).
  Copy presented, of Protocol for the Accession of Non-Signatory Powers to the Convention of 29th July 1899, for the Pacific Settlement of International Disputes, 14th June, 1907 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
  EAST INDIA (STATISTICAL ABSTRACT).
  Copy presented, of Statistical Abstract relating to British India from 1896–7 to 1905–6. Forty-first Number [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.

  PRIVATE LEGISLATION PROCEDURE (SCOTLAND) ACT, 1899.
  Copy presented, of Additional and Amending General Orders for the Regulation of Proceedings under and in pursuance of The Private Legislation Procedure

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  (Scotland) Act, 1899 [by Act]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 355.]

  COLONIAL REPORTS (ANNUAL.)
  Copy presented, of Colonial Report, No. 535 (Malta, Report for 1906–7) [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
  LOCAL GOVERNMENT ACT, 1888.
  Copy presented, of Orders made by the County Councils of Carnarvon and Somerset, under Section 57 of the Act, as confirmed by the Local Government Board [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.
  HOUSING OF WORKING CLASSES ACT, 1890.
  Copy presented, of Statement of Modification permitted by the Local Government Board to be made in the London (Providence Place, Poplar) Improvement Scheme, 1901 [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.
  MOTOR CAR ACTS.
  Copy presented, of Regulations made under the Acts: I. Ware; II. London; III. Smethwick [by Act]: to lie upon the Table.

  NAVY (HEALTH).
  Copy presented, of Statistical Report of the Health of the Navy for the year

  Name of Service.

  Date of commencement of Contract.

  Contract terminable.

  Particulars of Service.

  Total Subsidy.

  Sums to be set off against gross Subsidy in respect of contributions from Colonies, &c., Sea Postage for Mails despatched by Colonies and Foreign Countries, &c.

  Net Charge on Exchequer.

  Remarks.

  —(Mr. Harold Cox.)

  TRANSVAAL COLONY (CIVIL SERVANTS DISMISSED.)
  Address for "Return showing the names, posts, and salaries of the Civil Servants who have been or may be retrenched or discharged from the Transvaal service from the 1st day of May to the 1st day of October, 1907."—(Mr. Wedgwood.)
  1907 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 356.]

  PARLIAMENTARY PAPERS.
  Mr. SPEAKER Mr. SPEAKER laid upon the Table:—List of the Bills, Reports, Estimates, and Accounts and Papers printed by order of the House, and of Papers presented by Command, Session 1907, with a General Alphabetical Index thereto, 28th Parliament, Second Session, 7th Edward VII., 12th February, 1907, to 28th August, 1907; to be printed. [No. 357.]
  PAPER LAID UPON THE TABLE BY THE CLERK OF THE HOUSE.
  Public Bills (Allocation of Time),—Return relative thereto [ordered 26th August; Mr. Jowett]; to be printed. [No. 358.]
  STEAMSHIP SUBSIDIES.
  Order [16th May] for a Return relative thereto read and discharged; and instead thereof:—
  STEAMSHIP SUBSIDIES.
  Return ordered, "of all sums payable out of the Exchequer of the United Kingdom in the year 1906–7 in respect of Steamship Subsidies for Foreign and Colonial Services in the following form, viz.:—
QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS CIRCULATED WITH THE VOTES.

  Irish Teachers' Certificates.
  MR. HAYDEN: To ask the President of the Board of Education whether he is aware that Irish teachers who spent two years in

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  training before 1898, und received their certificate in Ireland, are not recognised as certificated teachers in England; and whether, seeing that Irish teachers who have been trained since 1898, and who have passed their qualifying examination, are recognised as certificated teachers, will he take steps to put these older teachers in an equally good position with their juniors.
  (Answered by Mr. McKenna.) The hon. Member is not quite correct in stating that Irish teachers who were trained before 1898 are not recognised as certificated teachers in England. These teachers are eligible for recognition provided they are certificated in the first class by the Irish Commissioners of National Education. I fear that, in justice to the Irish teachers who were examined under the revised system and to English teachers, I can hold out no hope of this condition being modified or relaxed.

  Inland Revenue Claims Branch.
  SIR WILLIAM BULL: To ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he will give instructions to the Claims Branch of the Inland Revenue to grant facilities to individual claimants in all cases of difficulty as to the evidence which the Board may require to prove the ownership of income derived from investments standing in names other than their own.
  (Answered by Mr. Asquith.) As I stated in a reply to the hon. Member printed with the Votes for the 3rd July, the nature of the document required as evidence cannot be prescribed in general terms, but must depend upon the particular circumstances of each case, which, if there be any doubt or difficulty as to what is required, should be represented to the Board of Inland Revenue, who will then be ready to give any assistance in their power.
  SIR WILLIAM BULL: To ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he will take such steps as are in his power to effect some immediate reform in the Claims Branch of the Inland Revenue, so as to expedite the settlement of outstanding claims, many of which have been shelved for six months without having been attended to in any way.
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  (Answered by Mr. Asquith.) On the general question of the delay in dealing with repayment claims, I fear I cannot add anything to the replies which I gave to Questions by the noble Lord the Member for Marylebone on the 6th instant, and by the hon. Member for the Rye Division on the 22nd instant † If, however, the hon. Member will give particulars of any claim which has "been shelved for six months without having been attended to in any way," I will have the case inquired into.

  Norwegian Whaling Factories.
  MR. SUTHERLAND: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he has any official information showing that the Norwegian Government has prohibited the continuance and the setting up of whaling factories on the coast of Norway; and, if so, for what reason that course was adopted.
  (Answered by Secretary Sir Edward Grey.) By a law which came into force in 1904 the slaughter of whales is forbidden off the coast of certain Norwegian provinces. It is understood that the object of this law is to protect the fin-whale, on the ground that it is of use to fishermen engaged in the cod-fishing industry through its indicating the position of shoals of fish.

  East Indian Railway.
  MR. REES: To ask the Secretary of State for India how many wagons and engines have been ordered out of the £800,000 taken for that purpose from the gold currency reserve, and how many the East Indian Railway have bought out of the one and a-half million pounds raised by that company in debentures.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Morley.) The decision to appropriate a portion of the profits on the coinage of silver to the provision of rolling stock for railways enabled the Secretary of State to order, in addition to what had previously been ordered, 1,450 open coal wagons and 4,242 covered wagons, but no engines, at a cost of £930,000. In regard to the East Indian Railway Company, no further sum was available for the purchase of rolling stock in consequence of the recent issue of debenture stock. The amount
  † See (4) Debates, clxxix., 1830, clxxxi., 1082–3.

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  obtained by this issue is taken in reduction of the company's overdrafts, the total advanced to the company by the Secretary of State amounting to a considerably larger sum.

  Deaths from Plague in India.
  MR. REES: To ask the Secretary of State for India whether the deaths from plague in the last eight years, amounting to 5,000,000 in all, work out to an average of 2·135 per 1,000 per year; and, if so, whether the constant and greater mortality from malaria will also be referred to a commission of experts should such be appointed.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Morley.) As I explained in my Answer to a Question of the hon. Member on the 20th August, any such calculation of a ratio of plague deaths to the total population of India may be misleading, and is not necessarily a true index of the prevalence of plague in comparison with other diseases. The Government of India are aware of the great annual mortality from malarial complaints, and have recently undertaken an inquiry into the etiology of fevers of that class prevalent in the Bengal Dooars. Plague and malaria present different problems, which must be investigated separately.

  Ceylon Tea and Rubber Districts.
  MR. REES: To ask the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether the sanction will be accorded at an early date for the Manaar Railway and the two local lines considered necessary for opening up tea and rubber districts in Ceylon.
  (Answered by Mr. Churchill.) The first step of course is the surveying of these lines, and this has been put in hand. The Secretary of State will of course reserve his final decision in each case until the results of the surveys are before him.

  Taxes on Commercial Travellers in South Africa.
  MR. MILDMAY: To ask the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether the Natal Government proposes to introduce a Bill whereby commercial travellers representing British manufacturers will be taxed £25
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  per annum for every firm represented by them; and whether, seeing that such legislation would entirely exclude from Natal four-fifths of the travellers who thus earn a living in that Colony, the Colonial Office can make such representations as may be necessary in their interests.
  (Answered by Mr. Churchill.) The Secretary of State is aware of the proposed legislation, and has received a number of representations that it will be seriously prejudicial to British trade. He has thought it right to bring these representations to the notice of the Governor of Natal by telegram.

  Natal Field Force and the Mandhlakazi Tribe.
  MR. BYLES: To ask the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether his attention has been called to the recent questions in the Natal Parliament and to the replies of the Prime Minister, stating that the Natal Field Force had been employed in destroying 200 huts belonging to the Natives of the Mandhlakazi tribe, the people being dissatisfied with the chief appointed by the Governor; and, having regard to the circumstances in which Zululand was handed over to Natal, can he say what are the reasons which have led to the determined refusal of the tribe to recognise the chief referred to, and on account of which the inhabitants are being subjected to this enforced migration.
  (Answered by Mr. Churchill.) The Secretary of State is aware of the matters referred to by the hon. Member. According to accounts from Natal, the action of the Natal Government was explained by the Prime Minister as being due to continued and persistent defiance of the Governor's order by a section of the tribe which had refused to recognise the chief appointed by the Governor in 1905, after a very careful inquiry as to the rights of those claiming the succession.

  Petitions upon the Sugar Convention.
  SIR GILBERT PARKER: To ask the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies if he will give the list of

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  representations and petitions from public and private bodies throughout the Empire upon the Sugar Convention which have arrived since the previous petitions and representations were published.
  (Answered by Mr. Churchill.) Since the publication of Cd. 3565, representations have been received from the following:—Invercargill (New Zealand) Chamber of Commerce; Newcastle (New South Wales) Chamber of Commerce; Nevis Agricultural and Commercial Society; Cairns (North Queensland) Chamber of Commerce; Mauritius Chamber of Agriculture (Telegraphic report printed in Cd. 3565); Legislative Council of Jamaica; Jamaica Agricultural Society; Council of Royal Jamaica Society of Agriculture and Commerce and Merchants' Exchange; Northside Sugar Planters' Association; Townsville Chamber of Commerce, Queensland; Barbados Agricultural Society; Barbados House of Assembly; Australian Sugar Producers' Association. The representation from the last-named Association has been received since the date on which the former Question of the hon. Member on this subject was answered.

  Board of Trade and Railway Stock.
  SIR HOWARD VINCENT: To ask the President of the Board of Trade if he can state what was the total market value of the stock of the railways under the control of the Board of Trade upon 1st August, 1905, and the same day in 1907; and what was the average dividend paid on the ordinary stock of the railways of the United Kingdom for the first half-year in 1905 and 1907, respectively.
  (Answered by Mr. Lloyd-George.) I have no official information as to the market value of all the railway stocks of the United Kingdom, and to obtain such particulars would entail a very elaborate and difficult inquiry. As regards the second part of the Question, complete half-yearly accounts for all the railways are not yet available for the first half-year of 1907, the accounts of the Scottish companies in particular not having been yet received at the Board of Trade. I have, however, had the accounts of twenty-four of the principal English,
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  Welsh, and Irish companies examined, whose ordinary capital amounts to about three-quarters of the ordinary capital of the railways of the United Kingdom, and I find that the average dividend on such capital amounted to 3·22 per cent. for the first half of 1907 as against 2·99 per cent. for the first half of 1905.

  General Lighthouse Fund Accounts.
  MR. W. R. REA: To ask the President of the Board of Trade whether the General Lighthouse Fund Accounts for the year ending 31st March, 1906, will be laid upon the Table of the House before the adjournment; and, if not, what is the reason of the delay.
  (Answered by Mr. Lloyd-George.) The accounts for the year ended 31st March, 1906, were presented to Parliament in December last. Complete accounts for the year ended 31st March, 1907, have not yet been received. The accounts will be presented to Parliament at the earliest opportunity after the necessary certificate of the Comptroller and Auditor-General has been furnished to the Board of Trade. I have given instructions that advance copies of these accounts shall he furnished as soon as they are received to the members of the Advisory Committee on new lighthouse works.

  Navy—Allocation of Crews.
  SIR JOHN BENN: To ask the Secretary to the Admiralty whether, in allocating men to the various ships, more regard can he had to the place of residence of the wives and families of the men; and whether he is aware that under the new system the practice has increased of sending men of the Eastern Division to serve on ships of the Western Division, and vice versa.
  (Answered by Mr. Lambert.) As regards the first Question this is done as far as possible. The practice of sending men to port divisions other than their own is not increasing. In a few cases of ships belonging to the Chatham Port Division men have been temporarily lent from other ports as required by the exigencies of the service, but these men are being returned to their proper port as opportunities arise.

  Audit Office Records.
  MR. FIELD: To ask the Secretary to the Treasury whether he will now state the names of the various accounts on which duplicate records are kept in the Audit Office, and the proportion of time on each of such accounts devoted to duplication and to auditing respectively.
  (Answered by Mr. Runciman.) I have nothing to add to the replies already given on this subject.

  The Assistant Comptroller and Auditor- General.
  MR. FIELD: To ask the Secretary to the Treasury whether, seeing that the Assistant Comptroller and Auditor, on appointment, undertook to perform any additional duties that might devolve upon him as a result of the abolition of the chief clerkship then in contemplation, he will explain why £50 non-pensionable allowance was merged in the salary of the private secretary for pensionable purposes.
  (Answered by Mr. Runciman.) I have nothing to add to the replies already given on this subject.

  Colonial Audit Branch.
  MR. FIELD: To ask the Secretary to the Treasury whether Mr. Barnes, of the Colonial Audit Branch in London, received instructions to prepare for transfer to Cyprus, and, if so, whether such instructions have been cancelled, and why; whether Mr. Grannum, local auditor in Cyprus, with about £500 per annum after ten years service, although he never passed a Civil Service examination for his position, received similar instructions to prepare for transfer to London; whether such instructions have been cancelled, and, if so, why; and, seeing that under similar circumstances Mr. Bathurst was transferred from Gibraltar to London and promoted to be chief examiner at his Colonial rate of £486 per annum, will he state what position and salary did the Comptroller and Auditor-General contemplate giving Mr. Grannum before his transfer was cancelled.
  (Answered by Mr. Runciman.) The Comptroller and Auditor-General is neces-
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  sarily the best judge as to the local disposition of the several officers of his Department which is most to the advantage of the public service, and I am not prepared to inquire into his reasons for transferring or not transferring particular officers or into the hypothetical consequences of an unrealised contingency.

  Exchequer and Audit Department.
  MR. FIELD: To ask the Secretary to the Treasury whether he will state the respective salaries of Messrs. Bunbury, Robinson, and Dixon, of the Exchequer and Audit Department, immediately prior to 1st November, 1905, the length of service of each, and the respective increments due and salaries accorded to them on 1st November, 1905; the respective numbers of Second Division clerks who had between twenty-four and twenty-eight years service, nineteen and twenty-three years service, fourteen and eighteen years service, and eight and thirteen years service on 1st November, 1905, and whose higher division certificates were granted as from that date; and the average salary of each clerk in each group immediately preceding and immediately succeeding that date, showing in each case the average increment due on 1st November, 1905.
  (Answered by Mr. Runciman.) I am not prepared to call upon the Department to undertake the preparation of such a statement, the value of which appears in no way commensurate with the labour involved.

  Liverpool Distilleries.
  MR. FLAVIN: To ask the Secretary to the Treasury if he has any official information showing that, in bonded warehouses in England, new raw grain spirit from Liverpool distilleries is frequently blended in large vats with a few casks of spirits from Scotland, some buckets of burnt sugar added, and the mixture sold as mild old Irish whiskey; and, if so, what steps are being taken to stop this fraud on the English public.
  (Answered by Mr. Runciman.) I have consulted the Customs and inland Revenue, and neither of them is aware of any case answering to the hon. Member's description.

  Second Division Clerks.
  MR. FIELD: To ask the Secretary to the Treasury whether, in the Order in Council which is proposed to be issued altering the scale of salary applying to the Second Division clerks of the Civil Service, provision will be made by which the salary of a clerk who entered that division from a subordinate class shall be based on the present salary, and not calculated merely according to the years of service in the division.
  (Answered by Mr. Runciman.) I have nothing to add to the Answer which I gave to a similar Question by the hon.

  Year.

  Number of applications for transfer recorded.

  Number of vacancies for women clerks in Dublin.

  1903

  11

  4

  1904

  6

  1‡

  1905

  6

  3

  1906

  13

  Nil.

  1907 (to date)

  15

  13 (including 10 new appointments consequent upon the transfer of certain postal order work to Dublin.

  ‡ This vacancy and one of those which occurred in 1905 were not filled owing to a reduction in force.

  There are now sixty-nine names on the list of women clerks desirous of transfer to Dublin.

  Irish Savings Bank Deposits.
  MR. FIELD: To ask the Postmaster-General whether, seeing that it is a fact in Savings Bank circles that the percentages, or figures immediately leading thereto, of Irish deposits and withdrawals made through British deposit books, and vice versa, have been actually worked out in the Post Office Savings Bank for the year 1906, or for a certain quarter or quarters of 1906, he will now order the Controller of the Savings Bank to furnish these percentages for the last available year or quarter; and, if not, will he say whether the refusal to publish these percentages is owing to the fact that their publication would destroy the only pretext the Post Office can put forward against having the Irish accounts kept in Dublin.
  MR. FIELD: To ask the Postmaster-General whether, seeing that the total
  Member for the Tottenham Division of Middlesex on the 22nd instant.†

  Post Office Women Clerks.
  MR. FIELD: To ask the Postmaster-General whether he will state the number of Post Office women clerks serving in London who, during each of the last five years, desired a transfer to Dublin and who had their names entered in the Post Office books in London for this purpose; and the number of vacancies during each of the last five years in the clerical staff of women clerks in Dublin.
  (Answered by Mr. Sydney Buxton.) The particulars desired by the hon. Member are as follows:—
  amount of the Post Office Savings Bank withdrawals in Ireland during the year ended 31st December, 1906, was £2,209,846, and that of this amount only £144,000, or less than one-fifteenth of the whole, was withdrawn on demand in sums of £1 and under, he will explain how the inconvenience caused to Irish depositors by the present arrangement of keeping the Irish savings bank accounts in London has been much diminished by the system of withdrawal on demand for sums not exceeding £1.
  (Answered by Mr. Sydney Buxton.) I am afraid I have nothing to add to the replies which I have already given to my hon. friend's previous Questions on these subjects.

  Bradwell-on-Sea Postal Deliveries.
  MR. WHITEHEAD: To ask the Postmaster-General whether he has now been able to arrange for an
  † See (4) Debates, clxxxi., 118–9.

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  earlier morning delivery of letters at Bradwell-on-Sea, Essex.
  (Answered by Mr. Sydney Buxton.) I am sending the hon. Member a written reply.

  Shetland Fishing Industry.
  MR. SUTHERLAND: To ask the Secretary for Scotland if he can say what are approximately the number of persons employed in Shetland in connection with the whaling industry and the herring fishing industry, respectively.
  (Answered by Mr. Sinclair.) I understand that the number of persons employed in the whaling industry in Shetland is approximately 308, consisting of ninety-six foreigners aboard vessels and 137 foreigners and seventy-five local labourers ashore. The number employed in connection with the herring industry fluctuates so greatly throughout the season that it is impossible to give any reliable figure. Last year the greatest number employed at one time was 20,186, comprising fishermen, curers, coopers, gutters and packers, and general labourers; a large majority of these belonged to other districts in Scotland and were at Shetland temporarily for herring fishing.

  Solway Fishing Industry.
  MR. MOLTENO: To ask the Secretary for Scotland whether his attention has been drawn to the dissatis-

  Name of institution.

  District or parish in which burial ground is situate.

  Date of approval.

  Carmelite Convent, Silver Hall -

  Heston and Isleworth Urban District

  21st April 1902

  Convent of the Burnham Community of the Sisters of the Sacred Heart

  Burnham Urban District, Somerset

  17th Dec. 1902

  Benedictine Priory of the Sacred Heart

  Ventnor Urban District

  31st Dec. 1902

  Clarence House Convent of Benedictine Nuns

  East Cowes Urban District

  18th July 1903

  Conventional Church of the Society of St. John the Evangelist at Cowley

  City of Oxford

  7th Nov. 1904

  East Dene, occupied by Nuns of the Order of the Sacred Heart

  Bonchurch, Isle of Wight Portslade

  28th Feb. 1905

  St. Mary's Convent, Portslade

  St. Cecilia's Abbey, occupied by Benedictine Nuns

  St. Helen's Urban District, Isle of Wight

  28th June 1906

  19th July 1907

  Monastery on the Quarr Abbey House Estate

  Binstead, Isle of Wight

  14th Aug. 1907

  faction prevailing among the fishermen of the Scottish portion of the Solway in regard to the conditions under which they have to carry on their industry; whether he is aware that legislation was at one time in contemplation; and whether he will consider what steps of this nature can be taken at an early date.
  (Answered by Mr. Sinclair.) I am aware of the dissatisfaction prevailing in reference to this matter and the suggestions that have been advanced for legislation. I have placed myself in communication with the Board of Agriculture and Fisheries, and learn that it is hoped the Salmon Fisheries Act for England of this session may materially facilitate a settlment of this question.

  Private Burial Grounds.
  MR. H. BEAUMONT: To ask the President of the Local Government Board whether he will give the names and localities of the various private burial grounds to use which permission has been granted to religious institutions during the last five years.
  (Answered, by Mr. John Burns. The particulars of the several cases in which approval was given during the five years ended 31st December last, and of two cases in which approval has since been given are as follows:—

  Bradford Drunkenness Prosecution.
  MR. ILLINGWORTH: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether his attention has been called to the case of Lee, who on 12th April 1906, was fined 10s. and costs for being drunk and incapable by the West Riding Bench at Bradford; whether he is aware that a fortnight was allowed him in which to pay, at the expiration of which he applied for an extension of time at the Shipley police station, which was refused, the fine was subsequently paid and a receipt given, but on 30th April Lee was arrested and taken to Wakefield Gaol; whether he is aware that he was released by order on 2nd May, and the amount of the fine, 10s., was tendered to him as compensation, this was refused; whether he will inquire into the circumstances of the case, and say what course he is prepared to take for compensating Lee for the illegal arrest and false imprisonment.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Gladstone.) My attention has not been previously called to this matter. I will make inquiry into it; but I may remind my hon. friend that, if the facts are as stated, Lee has his remedy at law.

  Estates Commissioners and Lands of Mr. Walter Morrogh of Cork.
  MR. FLAVIN: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland, whether he can state if Mr. Walter Morrogh, of South Mall, Cork, or his agent, E. H. Poe Hosford, of Limerick, has offered the lands in the electoral division, Killahan, near Ardfert, North Kerry, for sale to the Estates Commissioners; and, if so, with what result.
  (Answered by Mr. Birrell.) The lands referred to have not been offered for sale to the Estates Commissioners.

  Congestion in County Clare.
  MR. DUFFY: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland, whether the attention of the Congested Districts Board has been drawn to the state of congestion which exists in the Mount Shannon district notably on the Wakely estate, Scariff, county Clare; whether the Congested
  390
  Districts Board sought to improve the lot of these tenants by purchasing the untenanted lands on the estate; and whether, in view of the character of the agreements to purchase those lands entered into by some large holders of land in the neighbourhood, he will take such steps as are necessary to prevent the alienation of those lands from the mountain congests in the district.
  (Answered by Mr. Birrell.) The Congested Districts Board received last year a memorial from the tenants on the Wakely estate asking the Board to interfere in the letting of the untenanted lands by the owner. The estate, however, has not been offered for sale to the Board, and they have therefore taken no steps to purchase it.

  Wakely Estate, Scariff.
  MR. DUFFY: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that the tenants on the Wakely estate, Scariff, county Clare, are being pressed by the owners of the estate to sign purchase agreements, including the payment of a sum of money for each tenant over and above the price to be fixed by the Estates Commissioners; and whether, in view of the number of small holdings on this property, steps will be taken by the Estates Commissioners to protect them against pressure by ordering an inspection of their holdings.
  MR. DUFFY: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland, if the attention of the Estates Commissioners has been directed to a number of new tenancies created on the Wakely estate, Scariff, county Clare; whether he has any official information showing that this was done in anticipation of the Estates Commissioners purchasing the grazing lands in the interest of the small tenants on the property; and whether the Commissioners will institute immediate inquiry into the matter before the agreements to purchase signed by the non-residential grazing tenants are sanctioned.
  (Answered by Mr. Birrell.) The Estates Commissioners inform me that proceedings for the sale of the estate referred

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  to in these two Questions have not up to the present been instituted before them. In the event of proceedings, the Commissioners will after due inquiry give full consideration to the matters of fact alleged in the Questions.

  Lindsay Talbot Crosbie Estate, Ardfert.
  MR. FLAVIN: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether a complaint has been made by John Keeffe, of Kileade, a tenant on the Lindsay Talbot Crosbie estate, at Ardfert, to the Estates Commissioners about his land being flooded; whether an inspector has visited his farm; and, if so, whether the landlord or the Estates Commissioners have or will reduce the price in his purchase agreement which was only signed after a writ was served on him by the landlord for £117 12s. 8d.
  (Answered by Mr. Birrell.) The Estates Commissioners received a complaint from John Keeffe as to the flooding of his holding. The complaint was duly inquired into by an inspector who visited the land and reported on the matter. The Commissioners after due consideration sanctioned the advance applied for by the tenant, and the holding has since been vested in him. The Commissioners have no power to reduce the advance which has been made.

  Tarbert Eviction.
  MR. FLAVIN: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that Captain Robert Leslie, D.L., Tarbert, county Kerry, obtained the assistance of Sergeant Curran and two constables of Tarbert police station to evict a woman named Murray from her house in the village of Tarbert; that the police, headed by Sergeant Curran, obtained sticks and broke open the door and windows of this house and evicted this woman without producing a warrant or any order of a court of law; that Sergeant Curran summoned Miss Murray for assault on the occasion and the resident magistrate, James W. Flanagan, dismissed the case and stated that the sergeant acted perfectly illegally in carrrying out an eviction without producing a warrant, or in aiding or assisting the bailiffs; and will the Forces
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  of the Crown be in future refused Captain Leslie in carrying out such proceedings.
  (Answered by Mr. Birrell.) Captain Leslie obtained from the magistrates in petty sessions a decree for possession of a small tenement which was in the occupation of Mary Murray, and the warrant was addressed to the police under the provisions of the Statute 14 and 15 Vic, c. 92, Section 15, Subsection 3. Mary Murray resisted the execution of the warrant, and the police therefore forced open the door. It is the fact that Sergeant Curran prosecuted Mary Murray for assault, and that the resident magistrate dismissed the case on the ground that the warrant was not produced. No reference, however, was made to bailiffs, for no bailiffs were concerned in the matter. The police have no option but to execute warrants for the possession of small tenements when such warrants are addressed to them under the Act quoted.

  C. D. O'Rorke's Estate, Galway.
  MR. HAZLETON: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether the Land Judge has yet come to any decision with reference to the offer for the estate of C. D. O'Rorke, county Galway, made by the Estates Commissioners; and, if not, how soon a decision is likely to be arrived at.
  (Answered by Mr. Birrell.) The Registrar of the Land Judge's Court informs me that the Land Judge has not come to a decision in this matter. The parties interested in the estate are still considering their position in reference to the offer made by the Estates Commissioners. No decision can now be arrived at until next sittings.
  MR. O'SHEE: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland what steps the Estates Commissioners took with regard to acquiring the demesne and untenanted land, amounting to 700 acres, which the owners of the Woodrooffe estate, county Waterford, offered for sale in the Land. Judge's Court; whether the Estate Commissioners have any knowledge that these lands, except a small portion of rough land

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  offered to them, have been sold by the Land Judge; if so, what are the names of the purchasers; what is the area which each of them has bought, and at what price; whether an application is pending before the Estates Commissioners for the sale of tenanted land on this estate to the occupiers; whether a number of the tenants have refused to sign purchase agreements on the terms demanded; and whether, in view of the intention of the Land Act of 1903 and to the number of uneconomic mountain holdings on this estate, the Estates Commissioners propose to take any action in the matter.
  (Answered by Mr. Birrell.) On 31st October last the Estates Commissioners issued a request to the Land Judge under Section 7 of the Act of 1903 in regard to the Woodrooffe estate. On 8th March following the Commissioners were furnished with particulars of 434 acres of untenanted land proposed to be sold to them. The Commissioners have had this land inspected, but have not yet made an offer to purchase it. They are at present making further inquiries in the matter, and in the meantime cannot say what action they may decide to take. The Registrar of the Land Judge's Court informs me that untenanted land on this estate has been sold to the following purchasers at the prices stated: Claud Anson, 2,133 acres, £7,308; James Crooks, 303 acres, £1,400; Michael Walsh, 19 acres, £40; Mary Walsh, 27 acres, £60; Daniel Devine, 70 acres, £200; William Devine, 10 acres, £22. No proceedings are pending before the Estates Commissioners for the sale of the tenanted land. This portion of the property is being sold by the Land Judge to the tenants direct. The Commissioners have no informtion as to whether any of the tenants have refused to sign purchase agreements.

  Soldiers and Plain Clothes.
  SIR JOHN BENN: To ask the Secretary of State for War whether he is aware that, under the King's Regulations, Paragraph 1955, as amended by Army Order 171 of 1907, men living in Devonport, Stonehouse, and Plymouth cannot get a permit to wear plain clothes at all unless they want to leave the district on pass or furlough; and whether,
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  as this limitation is regarded by the lower ranks of the service as a grievance, he will consider extending the order to men of all ranks of very good character, or else allow men with standing passes to wear plain clothes.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Haldane.) I would refer my hon. friend to the Answer I gave on this subject on the 14th instant to the hon. Member for the Totnes Division, to the effect that the extension of the privilege to wear plain clothes has only recently been made to certain classes of non-commissioned officers. Soldiers of good character are, under existing regulations, permitted at the discretion of their commanding officer to wear plain clothes on pass or furlough beyond the limits of the garrison in which they are quartered. It is not proposed further to extend this privilege.

  Belfast Riots.
  MR. MARKHAM: To ask the Secretary of State for War will he say the number of soldiers injured during the Belfast riots and the particulars of the injuries they received.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Haldane.) The total number of the military injured during the Belfast riots were three officers and thirty-five non-commissioned officers and men. The information as to the exact nature of the injuries has not yet been received, but it will be communicated in due course to my hon. friend

  Catholic Soldiers' Children.
  MR. W. BENN: To ask the Secretary of State for War whether his attention has been directed to the hardship suffered by Catholic soldiers in barracks at Sheffield, Hounslow, and elsewhere, who desire to send their children to schools outside the barracks, but are not permitted by the regulations to do so; and whether he will so amend the regulations as to make it possible for these children to attend the school their parents desire.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Haldane.) These and similar cases are now being inquired into, and I will consider whether

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  any Amendment of the regulations is necessary.

  Army Horse Shoe Contracts.
  SIR HOWARD VINCENT: To ask the Secretary of State for War if an order for 100,000 pairs of horse shoes has recently been placed by the War Department in America; if 417 kegs of horse shoes which arrived this month for C. & Co., per ss. "Minnetonka," 808 kegs per ss. "Minneapolis," and 435 kegs per ss. "Minnehaha," from New York, were in reality for the shoeing of British Army horses; and, having regard to the depression in the horseshoe trade in the United Kingdom and among farriers generally, owing to the increase in the use of motors, if he can explain why His Majesty's Government did not give this order in a way to support British industries and British workers.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Haldane.) The Answer to the first part of this Question is in the affirmative; to the second, that these are probably the shoes ordered on the contract referred to. As regards the final paragraph, I can only say that in the interests of the economical administration of the Army I cannot disregard sources of supply which are satisfactory both as regards price and efficiency.

  Tidworth Barrack Contracts.
  MR. ROGERS: To ask the Secretary of State for War whether bricks made at Dodsdown, Great Bedwyn, have been rejected by the War Office for use by the contractor in the construction of the new cavalry barracks at Tidworth; and, if so, on what grounds.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Haldane.) Yes, Sir, these bricks have been rejected, as they did not comply with the requirements of the specification.

  Ely Barracks.
  MR. RAWLINSON: To ask the Secretary of State for War, whether he can say how soon the War Office will come to a decision upon the question of the repair of the Ely Barracks; and whether it is intended
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  that in the interval the permanent staff shall continue to reside in the barracks which have been declared by the War Office to be insanitary; and whether the War Office are still continuing to pay rent for the barracks despite their present condition.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Haldane.) As regards the first part of the Question the matter is under consideration. As regards the second part, I am not aware that the barracks have been declared insanitary; although the drains require reconstruction, the barracks are still being occupied. The Answer to the last paragraph is in the affirmative. The barracks are held on a lease, which can be broken on twelve months notice, if it is decided not to keep them.

  Port Royal Garrison.
  MR. G. GREENWOOD: To ask the Secretary of State for War, if, since the earthquake in Jamaica, yellow or other malignant fever has broken out at Port Royal; if there has been great mortality among the British troops there stationed; and, if so, will he cause them to be removed to healthier quarters.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Haldane). There have been only two cases of malaria among the European troops and seven cases among the non-Europeans at Port Royal since the commencement of this year. None of these was fatal. There have been no cases of yellow fever or enteric. There are in this Department no statistics regarding the health of the civil population at Port Royal.

QUESTIONS IN THE HOUSE.

  Rating of Shipwrights.
  MR. MILDMAY: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Admiralty whether it is a fact that the rating of shipwright has suddenly been closed to carpenters' crews who had not passed the shipwright's examination prior to 1906; and whether, if that be so, he will take into consideration the claims to advancement to this rating of those who, under a misapprehension, have worked for and passed the examinations for

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  shipwrights and leading shipwrights, and who joined His Majesty's Navy under the inducement held out to them that this way would be open to them to attain the position of petty officer.
  THE CIVIL LORD OF THE ADMIRALTY (Mr. LAMBERT,: It is not correct to say that the rating of shipwright has suddenly been closed to leading carpenters' crews who had not passed prior to 1906. Owing to the redistribution of the Fleet and the paying off of some of the older vessels, the higher ratings in the shipwright and other artisan classes are overborne, and consequently the advancement of the lower ratings, which normally is only made when there are vacancies, has been delayed. The matter is now engaging the attention of the Admiralty.
  MR. MILDMAYasked whether he might conclude that, upon the block being removed, the rating of shipwright would be reopened to leading carpenter's crews?
  MR. BOWLESasked if the regulations of 1906 still held good.
  MR. LAMBERTsaid he could only repeat that the whole matter was being considered by the Admiralty.
  MR. MILDMAYexpressed the hope that he might gather that such advancement was only delayed until the block had been removed.

  British West Indies—Laws for the Protection of Emigrants.
  MR. STAVELEY-HILL: I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he will lay upon the Table of the House copies of the laws passed for the protection of emigrants by the British West Indian Colonies.
  THE UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE COLONIES (Mr. CHURCHILL,: I would refer the hon. Member to an Answer to a similar question which I gave to the hon. Member for Gravesend yesterday.†
  † See (4) Debates, clxxxii., 152.

  Travellers' Licences in South Africa.
  MR. BRANCH: I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies if he is aware that the Government of Natal, South Africa, propose largely to increase the charges for licences to travellers from £10 inclusive of all firms whom they represent to £25 for each firm; and whether he will use his influence to avert this injury to British trade.
  MR. CHURCHILL: The Secretary of State is aware of the proposed legislation and has received a number of representations that it will be seriously prejudicial to British trade. He has thought it right to bring these representations to the notice of the Governor of Natal by telegram.

  Collapse of Egyptian Buildings.
  MR. J. M. ROBERTSON: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he can yet give information as to the number of buildings which have collapsed in Alexandria, Cairo, and their environs, in the past twelve months, and the number of persons thereby killed and injured.
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (Sir EDWARD GREY,: The Report which has been called for on the subject has not yet been received.

  Egyptian Teachers.
  MR. J. M. ROBERTSON: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he can yet state the total amount of provision made by the Egyptian Government for sending students to Europe; and what prospect there is of increase in the number of qualified Egyptian teachers.
  SIR EDWARD GREY: The Budget of the Egyptian Ministry of Education for 1908 has not yet been considered by the Council of Ministers, and will not be finally settled till October. It is, therefore, impossible to say what the special credit allotted for any particular purpose will be. I may state, however, that the Egyptian Ministry of Education is making arrangements with a view to sending this autumn nineteen Egyptian students—a number not previously equalled—for

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  training and further study in England, in addition to those who are already in this country undergoing special courses of instruction. It is hoped that all these Egyptian students, on the completion of their training, will enter the service of the Egyptian Government as teachers.
  MR. J. M. ROBERTSON: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he will obtain for the information of the House a classified list of professors who were employed by the Egyptian Government in teaching the sciences in Arabic at the date of the British occupation.
  I beg further to ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he will obtain for the information of the House a classified list of works, written in or translated into Arabic, upon scientific and technical subjects, and published in Arabic by the National Printing Press of Egypt, between the date of Mohamed Ali's accession, 1806, and that of the British occupation, 1882.
  SIR EDWARD GREY: In answer to these Questions I must point out that I have already caused a great deal of extra, and in some cases laborious, work on the part of officials in Egypt, by asking for detailed information in reply to Questions. In this case, I do not think it would be reasonable to ask them to make inquiries dating back to 1806. I do not know whether the information could be obtained; I do not suppose it could be obtained without much trouble; and when obtained a list of persons and books could not be a guide to the value of the instruction given by them.
  MR. J. M. ROBERTSON: May I ask if such a list could not be easily obtained in London, and would it not be better to proceed on it rather than on mere guesswork?
  SIR EDWARD GREY: I do not think the list of books would be of any value without a knowledge of their contents, and the knowledge of Members in Arabic would need to be much more extensive than it is for the information to be of any good.

  His Majesty's Consuls and Labour Statistics.
  MR. C. E. PRICE: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, whether his attention has been called to the fact that no information regarding conditions of labour, wages, and the cost of living appears in the Consular Reports from Austria-Hungary, Havre, and Philadelphia, similar to those from the Consuls in Germany and Chicago, U.S.A.; and whether he will issue instructions to all Consuls in His Majesty's service to supply such information in order to test the value of the trade and its effect upon the people of each country reported upon.
  SIR EDWARD GREY: I will consider, in consultation with the Board of Trade, whether any general instructions could be advantageously issued to His Majesty's Consular Officers on the points referred to. In view, however, of the complexity of these subjects and of the fact that the trustworthy information available with regard to them in some districts is frequently very scanty or wholly lacking, it may be that, generally speaking, they are more suited for special inquiry by expert investigators than for treatment in the Annual Reports of His Majesty's Consuls.

  Newfoundland Fisheries.
  MR. CARLILEasked if the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs was now in a position to give a definite Answer to the Question of the hon. Member for Gravesend as to laying on the Table the Correspondence between the Colonial Office and Sir Robert Bond, and the Colonial Office and the Newfoundland Government.
  SIR EDWARD GREY: Negotiations are still proceeding. I un not in a position to add to the previous Answers to Questions on this subject.

  White Star Company and their Stewards.
  MR. T. F. RICHARDS: I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware that the White Star Steamship Company have refused to pay their stewards for working overtime and at dock work, owing to a strike in progress when their steamship "Oceanic" arrived at New York;

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  that the men were threatened prosecution unless they obeyed orders, and, after working five days and one night, were paid 10 dollars and 30 cents less than the usual rates, and, although one of these men fell ill and was ordered by the ship's doctor to take rest, the second mate refused to allow this, and the man broke down and is still ill; and whether he can introduce some kind of legislation to prevent the ship's officers from imposing conditions of service upon their employees aboard ship that they could not impose on land.
  THE PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD OF TRADE (Mr. LLOYD-GEORGE,: I am informed that although the articles of agreement of the "Oceanic" contained a stipulation that no overtime would be paid, the stewards who worked overtime owing to the strike at New York received gratuities in addition to their regular wages. In the absence of the "Oceanic" I cannot obtain information as to the statement in the second part of the Question, but I am making inquiries. No further legislation affecting merchant shipping is at present in contemplation.

  Australian Tariff on Bicycles.
  MR. A. E. W. MASON: I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade whether his attention has been called to the proposed Australian tariff on English bicycles amounting in many cases to 100 per cent. ad valorem; and whether any, and if any, what, steps are in contemplation to prevent a prohibitive barrier being raised against British goods by a British Colony.
  MR. LLOYD-GEORGE: My attention has been called to the now Australian tariff rate on British bicycles, and I have invited representatives of the Coventry Chamber of Commerce to discuss the matter with the Board of Trade, and I understand that it has been arranged that they should see me to-morrow. Steps will be taken in duo course to represent to the Australian Government the views of the British traders in regard to the tariff.

  School Accommodation.
  MR. GRETTON: I beg to ask the President of the Board of Education when it is expected that the Return
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  dealing with the square-foot basis of accommodation in public elementary schools will be issued.
  THE PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD OF EDUCATION (Mr. MCKENNA,: I do not know to what Return the hon. Member is referring; but, as I have already intimated, the fresh consideration of the premises of all the many thousands of elementary schools that are on the eight-foot basis and the reassessment of their accommodation in a manner that shall afford not less than nine square-feet for infants and ten for older scholars must be a slow process, and I cannot yet name a date by which we can hope for it to be completed.
  MR. GRETTON: Was any action taken by the Board of Education on the lines indicated before the issue of the Return?
  MR. McKENNA: There is no Return of all the schools, but each school is being dealt with separately.

  Welsh Secondary Education Grants.
  MR. REES: I beg to ask the President of the Board of Education whether, if the preliminary and extended course for secondary education are eliminated, there will still remain a difference of £2 5s. a head on the ordinary course in favour of England as compared with the corresponding figure for Wales per pupil, the total grants for the course in England being £20, as against £17 15s. for Wales; and, if so, whether, seeing that the Welsh ratepayer will pay more per head on secondary scholars than the ratepayer in England, and that there are more secondary scholars in proportion to the population in Wales than in England, he will consider the desirability of reconsidering the proposed differentiation of Government grants for secondary education.
  The following Questions on the same subject also appeared on the Paper—
  MR. REES: To ask the President of the Board of Education whether, under the recent notification of his Department in this behalf, it is only in the fourth year that the Welsh secondary school pupil will attain the maximum grant of £5, which the English pupil enjoys from

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  the first year of his course; and whether he will reconsider a differentiation by which, in the absence of explanation, the Welsh pupil is prejudiced.
  MR. REES: To ask the President of the Board of Education whether in the ease of Welsh secondary schools no grant is given under the new regulations for certain years of school instruction, whereas in the case of most of the English schools payment is made for all the years of the course; and whether he will reconsider this differentiation, in order to the equal treatment of Welsh schools.
  MR. REES: To ask the President of the Board of Education whether, under the recent regulations for secondary education, no grant is allowed in Wales for children under twelve, while in England grants are provided for such children; and whether, if this be the case, he will reconsider this differentiation in order to redress the inequality established.
  MR. REES: To ask the President of the Board of Education whether the amount of secondary school teaching in Wales is, proportionately to population, much greater than in England; whether, if that be the case, the Welsh rate paper is unfairly mulcted when grants are allocated upon a basis of population instead of upon the basis of the work actually done; and whether he will reconsider the allocation already made in view to a fairer distribution as between Wales and England in this behalf.
  MR. McKENNA: In reply to this and the four following Questions, my hon. friend, as I have already stated, is under a misapprehension in instituting these comparisons between the grants paid on account of secondary schools in England and Wales respectively. The share of the amount allotted to Wales is based not on population, but on the actual grants paid to Wales for this purpose in the last three years.
  MR. REESasked whether it was the case that grants were not paid in Wales to children until they reached the age of twelve, and whether subsequently to that date they did not draw less in proportion than England; further, whether, seeing that only two out of 100 Welsh schools
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  failed to earn the full normal grant whereas one in four in England failed, it was not advisable that some arrangement should be made whereby the Welsh schools instead of being penalised for greater efficiency should be put on an equality with similar schools in England.
  MR. McKENNA: My hon. friend is mistaken. These grants are not paid to the children, but to the schools, and it has been determined that Wales on the whole is entitled to one-eleventh of the grant England as a whole is entitled to.
  MR. REES: The right hon. Gentleman is aware that I meant paid on account of, and not to, the children, and may I ask him further whether the misapprehension under which I labour in this matter is not shared by the Welsh people, and particularly by those who learnt arithmetic in his own schools?
  MR. McKENNA: Here again my hon. friend is mistaken. This misapprehension was shared by a large number of persons in Wales, but they have long since been convinced of their error.
  MR. REES: May I ask the right hon. Gentleman in what way he has acquired the knowledge that all who shared what he calls my misapprehension have now lost it, and whether it is not the case that grants to Welsh intermediate schools work out at 20s. a head as against 22s. in England in the case in which the comparison is least unfavourable to Wales?
  MR. McKENNA: No, Sir. My hon. friend is mistaken in that.
  MR. JOHN O'CONNOR: On what basis is the one eleventh made out, is it population?
  MR. McKENNA: On the basis of the actual amount which has been expended for these purposes in the two countries for the last three years.
  Mr. JOHN O'CONNOR: Which two countries?
  MR. McKENNA: England and Wales.

  Garforth School.
  SIR WILLIAM ANSON: I beg to ask the President

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  of the Board of Education why the overcrowding of the Garforth parochial school cannot be met by the transference of those children to the council school who, in the opinion of the managers of the parochial school, can be most conveniently transferred; whether there was in fact any risk of overcrowding after October 1st; on what grounds the Board have decided that the children in Standards III. and IV. should be removed to the council school; whether he considers it educationally desirable that the voluntary school should consist of the highest and lowest standards only; and whether the direction of the Board is given under Section 7 (3) of the Education Act, 1902, or under Article 53 of the Code.
  MR. McKENNA: As the Garforth council school is a school for older scholars only, it was necessary that the children selected for transference should be the older children who could be conveniently taught in the council school. As the total number of scholars on the books of the parochial schools for the month of June was 414, and the recognised accommodation is 352, I presume that if some re-organisation did not take place there would certainly be overcrowding, if not on the 1st October, at any rate for a considerable part of the school year. The Board have decided that Standards I. to III. only are to be continued in the mixed department of the parochial school, the children above Standard III. being taught in the council school. The voluntary school will not, therefore, consist of the highest and lowest standards only, as the hon. Baronet suggests. The Board are proceeding in this case under both of the provisions referred to by the hon. Baronet.
  SIR WILLIAM ANSONasked what power the Board of Education had to override the right of parents to send their children to what school they pleased so long as there was sufficient accommodation.
  MR. McKENNA: The Board are proceeding under Section 7 (3) of the Education Act of 1902, and also under the Code.
  MR. CARLILEasked if it was not proposed to transfer to the council school many more children than were required to reduce the attendance in the
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  parochial school to the recognised accommodation.
  MR. McKENNAsaid an alteration of the buildings would be required to convert the school into an infant and junior school, and additional accommodation would be provided for the infants.

  Merionethshire Education Dispute.
  LORD R. CECIL: I beg to ask the President of the Board of Education whether he will now lay upon the Table the correspondence with the county council of Merionethshire with reference to the payment of teachers' salaries.
  MR. McKENNA: Yes, Sir.

  Land Tax Commissioners.
  MR. GRETTON: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury for what purpose an addition of about five thousand gentlemen was made to the numbers of the Land Tax Commissioners in December last.
  Captain NORTON: The Land Tax Commissioners Act of 1906, under which the now Commissioners were appointed, was introduced in accordance with the usual practice of bringing in a Bill of this nature early in each new Parliament, in order to replenish from time to time the number of Land Tax Commissioners. The Commissioners appointed were, in accordance with the usual practice, selected by Members of Parliament on a Resolution of the House of Commons passed after the Second Reading of the Bill; the selection of the Commissioners and the number to be appointed being matters for the discretion of the individual Members.
  MR. GRETTON: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that in Leicester eighty out of eighty-four Commissioners appointed were of one political complexion?
  CAPTAIN NORTON: I am not aware, of that.
  MR. GRETTON: What was the reason for appointing the unprecedented number of 5,000?
  CAPTAIN NORTON: I have answered that.
  MR. GRETTON: Were all the appointments made on the recommendation of Members of this House?
  CAPTAIN NORTON: That is so.
  LORD R. CECIL: Was it only Liberal Members who were intrusted with this duty?
  CAPTAIN NORTON: I am not aware, but I believe it was all Members of Parliament.
  LORD R. CECIL: I had no communication on the subject at any rate.

  Scottish Leaving-Certificate Examinations.
  MR. SUTHERLAND: I beg to ask the Secretary for Scotland if he will say what was the object of changing the date of leaving-certificate examinations from June to April; and whether that change was made with the approval of local education authorities and of teachers.
  THE SECRETARY FOR SCOTLAND (Mr. SINCLAIR,: The object of the change of date of the written examination was to give full opportunity for collating the evidence of the written papers with the estimate of the pupils' attainments as arrived at by the teachers, and for such oral examination as may prove necessary when the two kinds of testimony are in conflict. Incidentally the change will admit of the results being communicated to the schools at a reasonably early date in spite of the much longer time which they now take to prepare. The change of date was announced by circular to the schools on the 15th May last, and from such expressions of opinion as have reached the Department since that date they have no reason to suppose that the change does not meet with the approval of the great majority of the managers and teachers concerned.

  Holme Lacy Charities.
  MR. T. F. RICHARDS: I beg to ask the Primo Minister whether he is aware that six tenants have notice to leave their holdings because it is alleged that they are the friends of tenants previously given notice to leave their farms for participation in petitioning the
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  Charity Commissioners to hold an inquiry into the administration of the Holme Lacy charities, and at which inquiry most of the allegations were proved to be true, whereby one late employee of the chief trustee, who usually acted without consulting the others, was found to have been appointed a pension at an age a little more than forty years, although this charity was left for decayed men, and at the inquiry this person, who has two farms of more than 340 acres, agreed to give up the pension, which he has drawn for more than nineteen years; whether he is aware that dissatisfaction prevails in the district, whore the new trustees appointed are likely to be composed of employees of the trustee above referred to; and whether he can introduce legislation early next session that will prevent honest and worthy farmers from being evicted from their tenures because they have performed a public duty.
  MR. J. A. PEASE: The right hon. Gentleman has asked me to reply to this. The hon. Member's question has been dealt with in the Answers which were given to him on 31st July and 21st August.† The Charity Commissioners are not aware that tenants have received notice to quit. It is believed that the schemes which the Commissioners propose to publish will be generally accepted as satisfactory. In framing these schemes the Commissioners desire to provide that a majority of the new trustees shall be elected by local bodies who would not be restricted in their choice of representatives. I understand that the Government are not prepared to undertake legislation of the kind suggested.
  MR. T. F. RICHARDS: Will the hon. gentleman inquire from Lord Chesterfield if he will withdraw those notices, seeing that those men have acted on behalf of the public generally?
  MR. J. A. PEASE: I will communicate the wishes of the hon. Member to the Charity Commissioners.

  The Hague Conference.
  SIR RANDAL CREMER: I wish to ask the Prime
  † See (4) Debates, clxxix., 943–4; clxxxi., 828–9.

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  Minister if his attention has been called to the conflicting reports which have been published concerning the policy of the British representatives at The Hague Conference, and the decisions arrived at by that body, and whether he will as speedily as possible circulate among Members of this House an official statement of the resolutions agreed to by the Conference.
  THE PRIME MINISTER AND FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY (Sir H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN,: I have noticed several conflicting reports in various organs of the Press since the Conference met in June last; but I am not aware to which of these my hon. friend particularly refers. A largo number of questions are now under the consideration of the Conference at various stages, and it would not be courteous to that body to adopt the course which my hon. friend suggests. I can only refer to the Answers given by the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs to the hon. Member for the Ecclesall Division of Sheffield, and to the statement that Papers will be laid in due course when the Conference has terminated its labours. I am satisfied that when these Papers are placed fully before the country it will be seen that our delegates have acquitted themselves not only to the credit of the country, but to the advantage of the cause of peace.

  The Prorogation.
  MR. AKERS-DOUGLAS: I bog to ask what time the right hon. Gentleman proposes to ask the House to meet to-morrow for the purposes of Prorogation.
  SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN: Twelve o'clock.

PUBLIC HEALTH (REGULATIONS AS TO FOOD) BILL.
Lords Amendment to be considered forthwith—(Mr. Burns); considered, and agreed to.
NOTIFICATION OF BIRTHS BILL.
Lords Amendment to be considered forthwith—(Mr. Burns); considered, and agreed to.
EMPLOYERS' LIABILITY (INSURANCE COMPANIES) BILL.
Lords Amendment to be considered forthwith—(Mr. Lloyd-George); considered, and agreed to.
IRISH LAND (No. 2) BILL.
Lords Amendment to be considered forthwith—(Mr. Attorney-General for Ireland); considered, and agreed to.
NEW BILL.
  CRIMINAL PROCEDURE AND SUMMARY JURISDICTION (SCOTLAND) BILL.
  "To regulate and amend Criminal Procedure in Scotland, and to extend the Jurisdiction and Powers of the Sheriff in Summary Criminal Cases," presented by The Lord Advocate; to be read a second time To-morrow, and to be printed. [Bill 338.]

CABS AND STAGE CARRIAGES (LONDON) BILL.
Lords Amendments considered.
First Lords Amendment agreed to.
Lords Amendment—
"In page 1, line 23 to leave out Clause 2,"
Read a second time.
THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE HOME DEPARTMENT (Mr. GLADSTONE,, in moving that the House do disagree with the Lords in their Amendment to maintain the privilege cab system at the London railway stations, said that he hoped those in another place would see on reflection that the public interest had been fully safeguarded in this matter. The cabmen had given positive assurances that they could and would serve the public interest adequately and faithfully. In the next place, the Home Secretary had reserved power under the Bill to relieve in whole or in part any station in the metropolis; and it would be his duty, if there were any breakdown in the system to the prejudice of the public, to use his powers. The opposition to the Bill had come entirely from the railway companies, whose

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interests must come after those of the general public. Those who argued that public interests were endangered by the Bill had not considered the question, which had been under Parliamentary consideration for fifteen years. Twelve years ago a Departmental Committee reported in favour of the abolition of the privilege system, and last year a representative Committee went exhaustively into the question and reported unanimously in favour of abolition. On the division on this clause only twenty-four members voted against it and 176 for it. In these circumstances the Government had no option but to ask the House to disagree with the Lords Amendment. If the Lords insisted on rejecting this clause, on them must rest the full responsibility for the loss of the Bill and its many valuable provisions framed in the public interest.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House doth disagree with the Lords in the said Amendment."
SIR F. BANBURYsaid that the assurances which the right hon. Gentleman had spoken of were given by the Cabmen's Trade Union, which represented about 8,000 men. But the union had no power to compel the men to go to a railway station. With all the desire in the world, it was impossible for the union to secure an adequate supply of cabs. It was not quite correct to say that the opposition came only from the railway companies; but, even if it were so, surely those who should protest were those who knew? He quits admitted that, from the point of view of the Cabmen's Union, this was a capital Bill; but the interests of the members of the union and those of the public did not coincide. There was a statement in The Times the other day from a man who pointed out that at Waterloo, whore the open system prevailed, it was impossible to got a cab on arrival, and that it was necessary to rush a vehicle which was bringing a passenger to the departure platform.
MR. GLADSTONE: That is nonsense.
SIR F. BANBURYasked whether the right hon. Gentleman had tried the experiment. The real origin of this Bill was the demand of the London Im-
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proved Cab Company for taximeters, and had nothing whatever to do with the privilege cab system.
MR. GLADSTONEsaid the hon. Baronet was quite mistaken. This question had been going on ever since the Committee reported, and at that time he announced in the House and elsewhere that if he could not come to an agreement with the railway companies on the privilege system a Bill would be brought in. That was over a year ago.
SIR F. BANBURYsaid he did not deny that the right hon. Gentleman said he would bring in a Bill, but, as these two matters were quite distinct, he ought to have brought in a Bill relating to taximeters and another relating to the privilege system. The only interest those who were opposing the Bill had was to ensure that there should be a sufficient supply of cabs at the stations, and he hoped the Lords would insist on their Amendment.
MR. REESexpressed the opinion that it would be difficult, unless there was some system like this, to make a proper provision of cabs at the great termini. He was sure this case was prejudiced by the name privileged, but he regarded it as a privilege, not for the cabmen, but for the public, and, in saying this, he desired his right hon. friend the Home Secretary to understand that he was not speaking on behalf of the railway companies, but as one of the public, who knew what it was to find a good cab ready as one did at Euston and what it was to find no cab as one did at Waterloo. He wanted to see the Bill, which was an excellent one, passed, but he could not see that this abolition of the privileged cab system formed an integral part of it. He knew how slow cabmen were to adopt new systems or even to discover a new terminus. Even now they hardly realised the existence of Marylebone, and cabs there would be hard to get but for the privileged system. It took cabmen long to get accustomed to a new station. Every cabman was conservative just as every faro was, or was expected to be, liberal. He thought the Bill might very well stand without this provision, as it came back from another place. But he did not want to see it lost.
MR. PICKERSGILLsaid the London Members were, by an overwhelming majority, in favour of the abolition of the privilege system, and he thought another place would be well advised in reconsidering their decision.
Question put, and agreed to.
Remaining Lords Amendments agreed to.
Committee appointed to draw up reasons to be assigned to the Lords for disagreeing to one of their Amendments to the Bill.
Committee nominated of,—Mr. Secretary Gladstone, Mr. Lough, Mr. Ramsay Macdonald, Mr. John O'Connor, Mr. Pickersgill, and Mr. Herbert Samuel.
Three to be the quorum.
To withdraw immediately.—(Mr. Secretary Gladstone.)

MERCHANT SHIPPING (TONNAGE DEDUCTION FOR PROPELLING POWER) BILL.
Lords Amendments considered, and agreed to.

MARRIAGE WITH A DECEASED WIFE'S SISTER BILL.
Lords Amendments considered.
Lords Amendments to the Amendment in page 1, line 18, agreed to.
Lords Amendment—
"In page 1, line 18, to leave out the word 'shall' and insert, the word 'may,'"
Read a second time.
MR. NAPIERhoped this Amendment would not be agreed to. Under it a clergyman might forbid the use of his church for the celebration of a marriage with a deceased wife's sister. In the present position of the Church of England that was quite a wrong thing. The right of marriage in the parish church was a common law right of Englishmen; what right had the clergy to withhold that right from people who belonged to the Church of England? He denied entirely that the clergy represented the Church of England, or
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that they were the Church of England. Parliament having laid it down that this was a fit and proper marriage to be celebrated in a parish church, a clergyman had no right to refuse his church for that purpose.
SIR BRAMPTON GURDONmade an earnest appeal to the House not to endanger the Bill. Under the Bill marriage with a deceased wife's sister would be made legal from to-morrow, and it would also be made legal retrospectively. The point involved in the Amendment was a very small thing, and he did not believe that in practice it would have any effect at all, because he felt quite certain that in two or three years the whole matter would have dropped, people would have forgotten that these marriages were over forbidden, and he did not believe that any clergyman would refuse the use of his church—or, at any rate, it would be a very rare thing for him to do so. If they did not insert these Amendments of the Lords, they would run a very great danger of losing the Bill.
Lords Amendment agreed to.
LORD R. CECILasked the promoters whether they would not strike out the whole of this proviso. It was perfectly valueless and otiose.
SIR BRAMPTON GURDONpreferred to retain the Bill in the form in which it had been agreed to by the Lords.
Lords Amendment—
"In page 2, line 27, after Clause 3 to insert a new clause ('Liability incurred through ecclesiastical censure),'"
Read a second time.
MR. ESSEXlooked upon this as a serious Amendment, and hoped it would not be agreed to. The promoters seemed prepared to throw everything to the winds in order to secure their Bill. This concession was not only weak, but wholly wrong in principle. It was pandering to episcopal intolerance. Many, himself included, were wholly indifferent to episcopal censure and dislike, and would sleep undisturbed in spite of it, but there were others for whom they had a

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profound respect, who were not equally insusceptible to such influence, and he appealed on their behalf. He hoped the House would not accept the Amendment, for it was unjust to lessen to the clergy the liberty which the Government proposed to give to the ordinary person by this Bill.
SIR HENRY FOWLERsaid that those who had had the conduct of the Bill had always maintained that they would never sanction or accept any part of a measure which would inflict injury upon the clergy or upon members of the Church of England. After the battle they had gone through and the difficulties they had faced it was rather severe for his hon. friend behind him to say that their conduct had been weak and that they were pandering to the Church. What did they, who were Nonconformist, care for ecclesiastical censures? It conferred no temporal loss upon any individual subjected to it, and what the real meaning of "ecclesiastical censure" was he failed to comprehend. The question, however, the House had got to decide was whether they were going to pass the Bill or not, and on behalf of the Government and those who supported the measure he appealed to the House to put no obstacle in its way.
MR. STEWARTasked if it were perfectly clear that ecclesiastical censure did not carry with it deprivation, because if it did the person subjected to such censure would suffer civil disability as a consequence. He would be glad to suggest that they should keep to the text of the Amendment as it stood at present, but add the words "no such censure shall carry with it civil disability." If it did not carry with it civil disability his objection would cease.
SIR BRAMPTON GURDONreminded the House that the Archbishop had stated in another place the day before that the episcopacy would endeavour to carry out the measure, should it become law, to the best of their ability. He thanked the Government for having given facilities for the Bill, and the supporters of the measure in that House for their unselfish and ungrudging support.
LORD R. CECILsaid he thought the hon. Member was wrong when he said
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the Bishops had accepted the Bill, because they divided against the Third Reading.
Lords Amendment agreed to.

PATENTS AND DESIGNS BILL.
Lords Amendments considered.
THE PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD OF TRADE (Mr. LLOYD-GEORGE,)said that most of these Amendments were purely drafting Amendments, and there were one or two of substance, but they were Amendments which carried out things which he himself had promised before the Bill had left that House.
Lords Amendments agreed to.

PATENTS AND DESIGNS (CONSOLIDATION) BILL.
Lords Amendments considered.
MR. LLOYD-GEORGEsaid the Amendments were considerable in number and would take a long time to read. He would suggest therefore that they should be taken by the House en bloc. They had been most carefully considered and the Government were prepared to accept them.
LORD BALCARRESsaid he had not the slightest intention of opposing the right hon. Gentleman's suggestion to take the Amendments en bloc. He thought, however, upon the question that the Amendments be considered he might be permitted to make some observations upon the methods which had been adopted by the Government to pass this Bill. The House would recollect that when they had finished passing the Patents Bill proper at between two and three o'clock in the morning the Consolidation Bill was brought before them and passed, twenty clauses being taken at a time. They did not object to the Bill going through, but they pointed out that the Consolidation Bill was one which ought to be considered by a Select Committee. That course, however, was not followed, yet had the Bill been introduced earlier in the session, as it ought to have been, it could then have been fully and

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properly considered by a Committee. As it was, however, the House of Lords, having passed the Patents Bill, were called upon two or three minutes later to consider a Consolidation Bill. There also, in that House, the Bill was not going through the proper ordeal of a Select Committee, but the Lords had placed in it, he would not like to say how many, Amendments, all of which had been agreed to in a very few minutes. However, he was quite prepared to accept the right hon. Gentleman's statement that these Amendments had been carefully considered by the Government, and he did not propose to object to their being taken en bloc, but at the same time he felt bound to point out that in neither House had the Bill passed through stages through which it was desirable that such Bills should pass.
Lords Amendments agreed to.

CABS AND STAGE CARRIAGES (LONDON) BILL.
Reason for disagreeing to one of the Lords Amendments reported, and agreed to.
To be communicated to the Lords.—(Mr. Secretary Gladstone.)
MR. SPEAKERinformed the House that until a message was received from the other House in reference to the two Bills that were sent up to them yesterday the business of the House could not be proceeded with. He, therefore, proposed to leave the Chair until such message arrived.
The sitting was suspended at a quarter past Four of the Clock.
The House resumed at a quarter to Eight of the Clock.

EVICTED TENANTS (IRELAND) BILL.
MR. SPEAKER: I have to report to the House that a message has been received from the House of Lords to the following effect:—
That they do not insist on certain of their Amendments to the Evicted Tenants (Ireland) Bill to which this House has disagreed; that they do not insist on one of their Amendments, but propose an Amendment in lieu thereof to which they desire the concurrence of this House.
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That they agree to certain other Amendment's made by this House to the Amendments made by the Lords without Amendment, and to one other Amendment made by this House with Amendments to which they desire the concurrence of this House. That they disagree to certain other Amendments made by this House, for which disagreement they assign their reason.
MR. BIRRELLsaid there was nothing in the Amendments which had been made in another place to the Commons Amendments which need occupy their time or prevent their agreeing to them. They related entirely to the machinery of the Bill, which, be its merits or its demerits what they might, they otherwise loft as it was. Therefore, he invited the House to agree to the Lords Amendments.
Lords' reason for disagreeing to certain Amendments made by this House, and Lords Amendment instead of the Amendment to which this House hath disagreed, and Lords Amendments to Commons Amendments to Lords Amendments, to be considered forthwith—(Mr. Birrell.)
Lords' reason and Amendments considered, and agreed to.

SMALL HOLDINGS AND ALLOTMENTS BILL.
MR. SPEAKER: I have to report that the following message has been received from the House of Lords:—
That they do not insist on certain of their Amendments to the Small Holdings and Allotments Bill to which the Commons have disagreed; that they do not insist on certain other of their Amendments, but propose others in lieu thereof to which they desire the concurrence of this House.
That they agree to certain of the Amendments made by the Commons to the Amendments made by the Lords to the said Bill without Amendment; that they disagree to one other of the Amendments, but propose an Amendment in lieu thereof, to which they desire the concurrence of this House, and disagree to one other of the Amendments, for which disagreement they assign their reason.
THE FIRST COMMISSIONER OF WORKS (Mr. HARCOURT,said since the House rose last night he had spared no time and no labour to effect conciliation, and he believed and trusted that he had been and should be successful in this. There were six Amendments which had come down from the House of Lords, and he would state generally what they were. The first was an Amendment to Clause 21, to insert after the word "allotment," "and no dwelling house shall be erected for occupation on any allotment of less than three acres." He proposed to ask the House to amend that Amendment by substituting "one acre" for "three acres." An Amendment had come down to them agreed by the Government in the other House on the subject of home farms. These words would be inserted in Clause 30, "or form part of the home farm, attached to, and usually occupied with the mansion house." He would move to agree to those words. On the subject of ancient monuments, of which he had spoken yesterday, another Amendment had come down to which he should move to agree. It omitted the words which were formerly in, "of historic interest," which might cover battlefields and other things that were not being dealt with. In the first schedule, a mere drafting Amendment had been inserted which he would also ask the House to agree to—in line 6, page 25, to insert "except document of title." Then there were the words which were inserted in Committee upstairs, at the desire of his friend the Member for Nowcastle-under-Lyme, under a clause of the Schedule, "assessment to rating and taxation." He had made a gallant fight for those words, which were not his own. He felt that he could no longer insist upon them, and, as he had also explained to the House on Report, he believed them to be of no importance, and had no meaning where they were inserted. Finally, another Amendment came down to them substituting arbitration for valuation in the hiring under the Schedule. That was not an Amendment which he could recommend the House to accept, but in place of it he would propose an Amendment which would give to the sitting tenant, the farmer to be displaced, the right to arbitration which he at present possessed under the Agricultural Holdings Act, but of which, under the terms of the Schedule, he might have
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been deprived as the Bill stood. Those were the whole of the Amendments which came to them from the House of Lords, and he asked the House to deal with them as he suggested.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Lords' reasons for disagreeing to one of the Commons Amendments to the Lords Amendments, and Lords Amendments to the Bill, and Lords Amendments to Commons Amendments to Lords Amendments be considered forth with."—(Mr. Harcourt.)
Question put, and agreed to.
Lords reason and Amendments considered.
Lords Amendment—
"In page 10, line 12, after the word 'allotment' to insert the words, erect a dwelling on not less than three acres,'"
Read a second time.
MR. HARCOURT MR. HARCOURT moved to substitute "one" for "three."
MR. CHAPLINsaid he was opposed to the Amendment of the right hon. Gentleman in, and personally he was in favour of the Amendment of the Lords. He was bound to say that it seemed to him that three acres was an area small enough upon which to erect a dwelling.
Amendment agreed to.
Lords Amendment, as amended, agreed to.
Lords Amendment—
"In page 15, line 27, to insert the words, 'or form part of the home farm attached to, and usually occupied with, the mansion house,'"
Agreed to.
Lords Amendment—
"In the First Schedule, page 25, line 40, to insert the following new paragraph:—'The matters to be referred to a valuer before the ending of any tenancy created by compulsory hiring, shall, on the application of either party, be ordered by the Board to be determined by arbitration instead of by a valuer, provided that any costs of the arbitration which the Board may deem to have been incurred by reason of such matters being referred to arbitration instead of to a valuer shall be paid by the party applying for arbitration,'"—
Read a second time.
MR. HARCOURTsaid that it was impossible for the Government to accept the Amendment of the Lords, because it

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violated the whole principle that they had asserted from the first—that the rent under hiring must be fixed by valuation. He, therefore, proposed to leave out all the words of the Lords Amendment and to substitute another Amendment providing that, if the land hired was in the occupation of the tenant, he might by notice in writing served on the council before the determination of his tenancy, require that any claim by him against the council might be referred to arbitration under the Agricultural Holdings Acts, and not by valuation under this Bill. This gave the tenant the same right to arbitration for compensation on quitting his holding now obtainable by him under the Agricultural Holdings Acts.
MR. CHAPLINregretted very much that the right hon. Gentleman had felt himself to be unable to accept the Lords' Amendment. He could not conceive why there should be this difficulty. The right hon. Gentleman said he had been opposed to arbitration in this respect throughout the proceedings on this Bill, and that was perfectly true. But what was the only ground upon which objection was taken to this proposal? Simply the ground of cost. By the Amendment inserted by the Lords which they were now considering the right hon. Gentleman had been deprived of the last shred of excuse for objecting to the proposal. The Amendment affected equally the owner and the tenant; and he could only suppose that, in the opinion of some of the right hon. Gentleman's supporters, the landlord was of such a dreadful and evil disposition, that the right hon. Gentleman could not screw up his courage to grant the landlord even this little justice. The benefit of the Amendment was left to the sitting tenant. He had always felt that the case of the sitting tenant had not received sufficient attention, though the Opposition had moved Amendments providing that, when deprived of his holding to promote small holdings, he should be entitled to every compensation that he would have been entitled to if he had received his notice to quit otherwise. The Amendment, therefore, would place the sitting tenant in the position he ought to have occupied in the Bill from the outset. He had no choice but to accept the right hon. Gentleman's proposal, for he could not move an Amendment with any hope of
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success. But he could not refrain from pointing out that the right hon. Gentleman had addressed the House in different tones from those which he adopted the previous night. Since the right hon. Gentleman made that speech he had carefully searched all the Amendments in order to discover any of the wrecking, destructive character attributed to the House of Lords the previous evening. He had been unable to find one; and he thought that the best refutation of the charges made against the Lords was to be found in the attitude they had maintained throughout these proceedings—namely, a desire to make the measure useful and workable. [MINISTERIAL cries of "Oh, oh!"] Some hon. Members opposite by that exhibition intended to convey that they did not believe it. He did not know of a single Amendment with regard to which hon. Gentlemen had been able to prove the slightest intention of wrecking the Bill. It was easy to make insinuations and charges of that kind but it was not so easy to prove them. He would not say anything further, because at the close of their proceedings he wished to say nothing of a controversial character, and he would conclude by saying he was heartily glad—and he was sure that opinion was shared by all his friends sitting behind him—that there was a reasonable prospect of the Bill passing into law.
THE SOLICITOR-GENERAL (Sir W. ROBSON,thought that something should be said in justification of the action of the Government in refusing to accept this Amendment. The Amendment proposed arbitration instead of valuation, and the parties had to apply to the Board of Agriculture for an order. The Amendment also provided that the parties should be called upon to pay the extra cost as between arbitration and valuation, and the Board would have to assess the difference. That meant that a Board sitting in London would have to consider whether in a particular case the cost of a valuation had been increased by the substitution of arbitration. That would be a very difficult task, indeed. It had been said by those interested in the opposite point of view that something should be said by way of explanation of the Bill on the question as it affected the tenants. As the Bill stood, the valuer would have to consider two things affecting the interest

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of the tenant. In the first place, the sitting tenant called upon to give up his land for small holdings would have the ordinary rights of an outgoing tenant in regard to his improvements. That compensation under the existing law would he assessed by arbitration under the Agricultural Holdings Act. But the tenant might conceivably have a claim for severance, if he were turned out before he had completed his period of occupation. Under the Bill, that claim would be dealt with by the valuer. It had been urged in another place that such claims ought also to be submitted to arbitration, so far as the tenants were concerned, but he thought those Lords who had discussed the point with the representatives of the Government were disposed to agree that these claims for severance would be very rare indeed, and that it was not worth while to take them out of the valuer's competence, and put them into other hands. The Government believed that the Bill should pass as it stood in that respect. There was only one other point on which he desired to make some observations, and that was with regard to the duties of the valuers. It had been pointed out that as a matter of law the valuer was not bound to receive evidence, and that the difference between the valuer and the arbitrator was that the arbitrator was a judge and that the valuer was a man of business. But that did not moan that the valuer would not make proper inquiries; the schedule of the Bill expressly provided that the valuer should be entitled to receive information on any point affecting the value of the land. The valuer must not go down to the land, walk over it, and thon give his opinion founded on his views and theories as to what it ought to be worth. There had been some apprehension expressed in another place as to how the valuers would perform their duties. They would be instructed by the Board of Agriculture that they must perform their duties in a way which would be likely to give satisfaction to the parties. The difference between a valuation and an arbitration would in practice be greatly minimised. With regard to the tenant's right to arbitration, the Government proposed to leave him the right that he had under the present law.
Lords Amendment disagreed to, and Amendment, in lieu thereof, to the effect stated by Mr. Harcourt, agreed to.

CABS AND STAGE CARRIAGES (LONDON) BILL.
MR. SPEAKER: A message has been received from the House of Lords to the effect that they do not insist on their Amendment to the Cabs and Stage Carriages (London) Bill, to which the Commons have disagreed, but propose other Amendments in lieu thereof, in which they desire the concurrence of this House.
THE UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE HOME DEPARTMENT (Mr. H. SAMUEL,stated that the House of Lords had not insisted on their Amendment for the excision of the clause abolishing the privilege cab system. After a somewhat prolonged discussion they had been able to make an arrangement with the opponents of the clause, in consequence of which they had withdrawn their opposition to it. The Amendments of the House of Lords were three in number. Two of them were Amendments of little more than form, and would in no way impair the substance of the clause. The third was to limit the operation of the clause to a period of two years. It was with regret that the Government accepted the Amendment; but he would point out that the Select Committee which considered the matter last year recommended that the privilege system should be abolished experimentally for one year. They had now secured a period of two years, and if the experiment was, as they expected, successful, the clause would be continued from year to year in the Expiring Laws Continuance Bill.
Lords Amendments to the Bill, instead of the Amendment to which this House hath disagreed, to be considered forthwith (Mr. Herbert Samuel); considered, and agreed to.

SITTINGS OF THE HOUSE.
Resolved, That this House do meet To-morrow, at Twelve o'clock.—(Mr. Whiteley.)
Whereupon Mr. SPEAKER, pursuant to the Order of the House of the 26th day of July last, adjourned the House without Question put.
Adjourned at twenty-five minutes after Eight o'clock.