§ Considered in Committee.
§ (In the Committee.)
§ Motion made, and Question proposed, "That it is expedient to authorise the payment, out of moneys provided by Parliament, of expenses incurred by the Fishery Board for Scotland in pursuance of any Act of the present session to regulate Whale Fisheries in Scotland."
§ *MR. MORTONasked the Secretary for Scotland what the expenses amounted to, and what they were for. He did not want to detain the House, but he thought that he had a right to ask the question. and to get that information.
§ Lord R. CECIL (Marylebone, E.)said he thought they were entitled to have an answer to the question. If the Minister who was in charge of a measure was not able to be present, the measure should not be taken. Unless somebody replied to the question that had been put, he would feel bound to move that the Committee should report progress.
§ Mr. WHITELEYsaid he hoped the noble Lord would not press his Motion. The business would be purely formal, and there would be other stages of the j Bill when it could be discussed.
§ *Mr. MORTONasked leave to say in answer to his hon. friend that the very object of taking the Committee stage on financial proposals was that they should have an opportunity of receiving j an explanation as to what the money was wanted for, and what the amount was. If that was not so there would be no j need for the Committee stage at all. He hoped his hon. friend would not try to lead the House to do anything which would injure its full control over the finances of the country.
§ MR. RAWLINSONsaid the matter was surely one of great importance. The 1988 question of finance was one which the 1House of Commons kept in its own hands. In a case of that kind where they had a financial Resolution taken separately from the Bill, if the Secretary of State could not be there they ought to have somebody present to give [them an explanation. If the Government was unable properly to arrange the business of the country, and wanted to rush matters, that was no reason why they who were prepared to sit up should be persuaded by the hon. Member in charge of business to let a Bill pass through without discussion. The hon. Member told them that if they did not do that therwould be unable to get through the remaining stages of the Bill in the next fortnight. They ought not as a business assembly to be expected to get through so many stages of the Bill, and that was no excuse for them as a business assembly in skirking their duty though it happened to be late at night. They ought not to allow important matters to go through the House in the way in which they had been doing that night. They were being told continually that the work of that House was being checked in another place, and they were told that the wishes of the people were not being properly regarded; but if they turned their business out badly they had no proper argument against the other House. He protested against the manner in which business was being conducted, and asked the House to see that the work was properly done even if it involved sitting up late.
§ Mr. J. A. PEASE (Essex, Saffron Walden)said that as an individual connected with the Treasury he might, perhaps, be allowed to say a few words. It had been arranged between the two sides of the House that that stage should be taken that night practically without discussion. Opportunities for discussing the Bill would arise on other stages. The Bill was one in connection with the expenses in regard to whale fisheries, and it was necessary that that formal stage should be taken in order that the Bill might be proceeded with and discussed. The expense, he believed, would not be considerable. Apparently under Clause 4 of the Bill some expense would be necessary in order 1989 to provide for the inspection of factories or stations where persons were employed by the holders of licences.
§ Mr. AKERS-DOUGLAS (Kent, St. Augustine's)said the hon. Gentleman had stated that an arrangement had been made to take certain things that night. His understanding of the arrangement was that certain business should not be proceeded with. When it was arranged that certain business should not be taken that could not be held to mean that the business which was taken should not be properly explained. They were entitled to an explanation. They were perfectly prepared to sit up and see that the business of the country was properly done. They were also prepared to sit later in the session, and no threats that if they could not get through the business by a certain date they would have to sit later, would avail with them.
§ Mr. WHITELEYsaid he never made any threat.
§ Mr. AKERS-DOUGLASsaid he understood the threat had been used that a certain number of stages had to be carried before the end of the session, and that if they did not^ dispose of the business that night, they would have to take it up later in the session. So far as he and his friends were concerned, they were prepared to discuss the measures properly, whether they took a longer or shorter number of days. All they wanted was that if certain Bills had to be taken, and they had to sit up for them, the Minister in charge of the Bill, or some Minister who understood the Bill, should be there to give them some explanation That was not an unreasonable thing to expect.
§ *Mr. MORTONsaid that he did not propose to go further in the discussion of this matter now that a junior Lord of the Treasury had endeavoured to give the Committee some explanation. He used the word "endeavoured" advisedly, because it was perfectly evident that the hon. Gentleman did not know very much about the subject on which
§ he tried to enlighten them. What he wished to say was that if a number of Members of the House of Commons were willing to stay there at that time of the night and to help the Government to get its business through surely a paid Member of the Government ought to find no difficulty in staying. He protested against the statement of the Junior Lord of the Treasury not only that a bargain had been made between the two front Benches, but that it had been agreed that the Bill should be taken without discussion. That was a scandalous thing and it ought not to be tolerated for a moment in a Free Parliament
§ Lord R. CECILmoved to report progress. He had listened to the explanation which the Junior Lord of the Treasury gave the Committee without enlightenment. The hon. Gentleman simply looked through the Bill till he found the portion printed in italics and then he said, "Those are the expenses which are required." That was the best the hon. Gentleman could do. There were three Gentlemen representing Scotland who had places on the Treasury Bench—the Secretary for Scotland, the Lord Advocate, and the-Solicitor-General for Scotland. These Gentlemen were bound owing to their official duties to know what was in the Bill and as a matter of fact, the names of two of them were on the back of the Bill. He thought that one of the trio ought out of courtesy to the Committee to have been there in order to explain to the Committee any points which might be raised. From a business point of view also the attendance of one of these representatives of Scotland was necessary. They were bound to take cognisance of the absence of these Ministers, and the only way in which they could do so was by reporting progress.
§ Motion made, and Question put, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again." — (Lord It. Cecil.)
§ The Committee divided: —Ayes, 13; Noes, 100. (Division List No. 383.)
1991| AYES. | ||
| Acland-Hood.RtHn.SirAlex.F. | Corbott, A. Cameron (Glasgow) | Courthope, G. Loyd |
| Bridgeman, W. Clive | Corbett, T. L. (Down North) | Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers. |
| Forster, Henry William | Sloan, Thomas Henry | TELLERS FOR THE AYES— |
| Gordon, J. | Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester) | Lord Robert Cecil and Mr. |
| Hunt, Rowland | Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton) | Rawlinson. |
| Salter, Arthur Clavell | ||
| NOES. | ||
| Baring, Godfrey(Isle of Wight) | Hudson, Walter | Rees, J. D. |
| Barlow, Percy (Bedford) | Idris, T. H. W. | Richards, T.F.(Wolverh'mph) |
| Barnard, E. B. | Jardine, Sir J. | Rickett, J. Compton |
| Beauchamp, E. | Johnson, John (Gateshead) | Ridsdale, E. A. |
| Beaumont, Hon. Hubert | Jones, Leif (Appleby) | Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln) |
| Bowerman, C. W. | Jones, William(Carnarvonshire | Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.) |
| Brunner, J. F. L. (Lanes.,Leigh) | King,AlfredJohnfKnutsford | Robinson, S. |
| Burns, Rt. Hon. John | Laidlaw, Robert | Rowlands, J. |
| Byles, William Pollard | Lamont, Norman | Samuel,HerbertL. (Cleveland) |
| Carr-Gomm, H. W. | Lever, A. Levy (Essex,Harwich) | Scott,A.H.(Aston under Lyne) |
| Clough, William | Levy, Sir Maurice | Shackleton, David James |
| Collins SirWm. J.(S.Pancras.W. | Lewis, John Herbert | Sherwell, Arthur James |
| Cooper, G. J. | Lupton, Arnold | Silcock, Thomas Ball |
| Corbett,CH(Sussex,E. Grinst'd | Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester) | Simon, John Allsebrook |
| Craig,HerbertJ. (Tynemouth) | Maepherson, J. T. | Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie |
| Dickinson, W.H.(St.Paneras,N. | MacVeagh, Jeremiah(Down,S.) | Stanger, H. V. |
| Duncan, C.(Barrow-in-Furness | MacVeigh,Charles(Donegal,E.) | Straehey. Sir Edward |
| Dunn, A. Edward (Camborne) | M'Laren, H. D. (Stafford, W.) | Taylor, John W. (Durham) |
| Elibank, Master of | Maddison, Frederick | Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe |
| Everett, R. Lacey | Marks,G.Croydon(Launceston) | Trevelyan, Charles Philips |
| Fenwick, Charles | Marnham, F. J. | Waring, Walter |
| Ferens, T. R. | Masterman, C. F. G. | Warner, Thomas Courtenay T. |
| Fiennes, Hon. Eustace | Micklem, Nathaniel | Waterlow. D S. |
| Fuller, John Michael F. | Morton, Alpheus Cleophas | Watt, Henry A. |
| Gill, A. H. | Nicholls, George | White, George (Norfolk) |
| Gladstone,Rt.Hn.HerbertJohn | Nolan, Joseph | White, Luke (York, E. R.) |
| Goddard, Daniel Ford | O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) | Whitley, John Henry (Halifax) |
| Gulland, John W. | O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.) | Williams,Llewelyn(Carmarth'n |
| Hamsworth, Cecil B.(Wore'r) | O'Grady. J. | Wilson, Hon.C.H.W.(Hull,W.) |
| Haworth, Arthur A. | Parker, James (Halifax) | Wilson, J. H. (Middlesbrough) |
| Hedges, A. Paget | Pearce, Robert (Staffs. Leek) | |
| Henderson Arthur (Durham) | Pickersgill. Edward Hare | TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr. |
| Higham, John Sharp | Price,C.E.'(Edinb'gh,Central) | Whiteley and Mr. J. A. |
| Hodge. John | Priestley,W. E. B.(Bradford, E. | Pease. |
| Horniman, Emslie John | Rainy, A. Rolland |
Main question put, and agreed to.
§ Resolution to be reported to-morrow (Wednesday.)