Commons Sitting of 31 October 1906

Preamble
The House met at a quarter before Three of the Clock.
PRIVATE BILL BUSINESS.

  PRIVATE BILLS (GROUP K).
  Sir JOSEPH LEESEreported from the Committee on Group K of Private Bills; That, for the convenience of parties, the Committee had adjourned till Wednesday next, at Eleven of the Clock.
  Report to lie upon the Table.

PETITIONS.
  BETTIMG AND GAMBLING.
  Petition from Glasgow, for legislation; to lie upon the Table.
  PUBLIC HEALTH (REGULATIONS AS TO FOOD) BILL.
  Petition from Glasgow, in favour; to lie upon the Table.
RETURNS, REPORTS, ETC.
  COLONIAL REPORTS (ANNUAL).
  Copy presented, of Colonial Report No. 506 (Mauritius, Annual Report for 1905) [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
  TRADE REPORTS (ANNUAL SERIES).
  Copy presented, of Diplomatic and Consular Report, Annual Series, No. 3726 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
  POST OFFICE (PARCEL POST BETWEEN GREAT BRITAIN AND NICARAGUA).
  Copy presented, of Agreement between the Post Office of Great Britain and Ireland and the Post Office of Nicaragua for the direct exchange of Parcels by Parcel Post, dated 4th July, 1906 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
  COTTON GROWING.
  Address for "Return of Correspondence between the India Office and the Government of India and the British Cotton Growing Association which has taken place since the presentation of C. 1982 of Session 1904."—(Mr. Rees.)
QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS CIRCULATED WITH THE VOTES.

  Telegraphic Delays.
  MR. W. T. WILSON: To ask the Postmaster-General whether his attention has been called to the telegraphic delays that took place at Newcastle-on-Tyne, Birmingham, Liverpool, London, Bristol, Dublin, Exeter, and Glasgow during the months of July, August, and September; whether

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  this delay is due to the fact that the number of the staff is based upon the minimum requirements of the offices, and that the delay on telegrams is ignored by the Department unless a certain average per hour per unit of staff is performed; and whether he has any official reports showing that the decline in the receipts of the telegraph system is due to the growing inefficiency and un-punctuality of the service.
  (Answered by Mr. Sydney Buxton.) My attention is called from time to time to telegraphic delays, and in the case of some at least of the cities mentioned by the hon. Member I have had special in-inquiry made, and the result reported to me specially. It is not the fact that the number of the staff is based upon the minimum requirements of the offices, or that the delay on telegrams is ignored unless a certain average of work per unit of staff is performed. The hon. Member has been misinformed on these points. I have reason to believe that the telegraph system is not less efficient than it ever was. As a matter of fact the delays are loss than formerly. If reasonable economies are to prevail the staff cannot be based on the maximum demand that may at any time occur. The hon. Member is aware that the summer months are those when the telegraph business is at its maximum. It is during those months that a considerable proportion of the telegraphists take their holidays, which, looking at the difficulty of obtaining sufficient season assistants, adds considerably to the difficulties of conducting the service during the summer.

  Submarine Lifting Machinery.
  MR. W. F. D. SMITH: To ask the Secretary to the Admiralty whether at stations from which submarines are exercised, apparatus is kept capable of lifting a submarine if an accident occurs; and, if not, whether provision will be made for that purpose in next year's Estimates.
  (Answered by Mr. Edmund Robertson.) Apparatus is kept at Portsmouth capable of raising a sunken submarine under favourable conditions, and the question of providing similar apparatus at Devon-port and Sheerness is under consideration. It cannot, however, be stated that there
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  is much likelihood that, in the event of an accident, a submarine could be raised in time to save life; and no satisfactory design for a salvage vessel capable of effecting this has yet been produced.

  Shipbuilding—Costs of Hulls.
  MR. BELLAIRS: To ask the Secretary to the Admiralty whether he can state the chief causes of the difference in cost of the hulls of the sister ships "Suffolk" and "Essex," built in the Royal Dockyards at a cost of £393,483 and £445,694 respectively.
  (Answered by Mr. Edmund Robertson.) The difference in the cost of the hulls of these two vessels was inquired into by the Public Accounts Committee in July, 1905, and I can only refer the hon. Member to pages 297–299 of the Report of the Committeee for that year, where he will find a full statement of all the contributory causes.

  South Western District Office Cycle Postmen.
  MR. JAMES O'CONNOR: To ask the Postmaster-General if he will explain why no answer has been received by the cyclist postmen of the South Western District Office, London, to the memorials of June and July last, addressed to the Secretary and Controller respectively.
  (Answered by Mr. Sydney Buxton.) Several questions arising in connection with postmen's cycle duties in London are at present under consideration; and I find it difficult to reply to the memorials referred to until I have had time to consider the whole subject. I hope, however, to be able to give a reply shortly.

  Government Contractors and Fair Wages.
  MR. O'GRADY: To ask the First Commissioner of Works, in view of the undertaking that the various Government Departments would consider the matter of the Fair Wage Clause in their application to Government contracts, whether any, and, if any, what action has been taken in the matter.
  (Answered by Mr. Harcourt.) It has been the practice of my Department for years past to take such measures as were considered best to secure the observance

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  of the Fair Wages Resolution of the House of Commons, but I have recently caused specific clauses for that purpose to be inserted in certain contracts in which they had not been so categorically expressed before. I am, of course, able to answer only for my own Department.

  Waygood and Company's Contracts.
  MR. O'GRADY: To ask the First Commissioner of Works whether representation has been made to him by the Lambeth Trades and Labour Council respecting the firm of Messrs. Waygood and Company, lift makers, that on contracts for His Majesty's Government the wages paid to wood cutting machinists in the employ of the firm were 50 per cent, less than the current rates; whether inquiries have been made; and, if so, the result of those inquiries.
  (Answered by Mr. Harcourt.) A representation to this effect was made to me in July last, and I replied that it was impossible to obtain an explanation from Messrs. Waygood and Company unless I could acquaint them with the specific charges made against them, which had been furnished to me in confidence. Not having received the Trades Council's assent to my doing this, I have not been able to proceed further in the matter.

  Bengal Tenancy Act.
  MR. REES: To ask the Secretary of State for India whether the Government of Bengal, shortly before the anti-partition agitation commenced, instituted a survey and settlement of rent under the Bengal Tenancy Act, in order to the protection of the low caste Hindu and Mahomedan tenants of the high caste Hindu landlords; and whether in other parts of India, where there are no landlords under permanent settlement, there has been any such agitation as is now proceeding in Bengal.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Morley.) The surveys in question have been in progress in various parts of Bengal since 1892. They are intended to ascertain and record the respective rights of landlords and tenants, and they are for the advantage of both classes. Similar surveys have been made, or are being made, in districts not under permanent settle-
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  ment. The agitation referred to in the latter part of the Question is confined to that part of India which is affected by the recent change. There are permanently settled areas outside Bengal in which no such agitation exists.

  Partition of Bengal.
  MR. C. J. O'DONNELL: To ask the Secretary of State for India if he is aware that His Highness the Aga Khan, president of the recent Musalman deputation to His Excellency Lord Minto, the Honourable Nawab Sayyid Muhamad Bahadur, at present Musalman member of the Viceroy's Council, the honourable Muhamad Yusuf Khan Bahadur, lately a member of the Legislative Council of Bengal, and president? of the Central Muhamadan Association, and many other leading Musalmans have recently condemned the partition of Bengal; and whether he will lay the opinions of the three gentlemen named upon the Table of the House.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Morley.) I have seen in the newspapers statements as to the views of the three gentlemen mentioned, but, apart from these, I have no knowledge of their opinions on the subject in question. Their opinions are not on record in this Department.

  Indian Army Quick Firing Guns.
  MR. REES: To ask the Secretary of State for War what progress has been made in re-arming batteries in India with the new quick-firing gun.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Haldane.) All the quick-firing guns required for the re-armament of the batteries in India are already in that country. Not all of them, however, are at present ready for use, as some of the limbers required have not yet been shipped.

  Indian Military Burden.
  MR. REES: To ask the Secretary of State for War whether the changes recently introduced in respect of service pay will result in any reduction of the additional charge of upwards of a quarter of a million thrown upon Indian revenues by the increase in the soldiers' pay effected in 1902.

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  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Haldane.) These changes will result in a gradual reduction in the charge referred to.

  Contracts for Munitions of War.
  MR. CHIOZZA MONEY: To ask the Secretary of State for War whether, while, since 1901, under the present and previous Governments, about 10,000 workmen have been discharged from Woolwich Arsenal, causing great distress in Woolwich and Plum-stead, large contracts for munitions of war have been placed with private contractors; and whether, in the interests of national economy, he will consider the advisability of making full use of the national capital invested in the buildings and plant at Woolwich.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Haldane.) The principle of dividing the orders for war munitions between the Government factories and the trade has long been accepted as the best policy in the interests of the Army and the nation. By this means only is it possible to secure economically the necessary expansion to meet the needs of war. Since the termination of the South African War there has been an inevitable decrease in the volume of the Government orders, but I am satisfied that in the allocation of these orders the Government factories have received the fullest possible proportion. It is not possible to keep the whole of the plant in the Government factories working in time of peace.

  Case of John Whitworth of Plumstead.
  MR. CHIOZZA MONEY: To ask the Secretary of State for War whether his attention has boon directed to the fact that John Whitworth, stoker, of Plum-stead, who was discharged from Woolwich Arsenal a few weeks ago, has committed suicide, the coroner's jury deciding that his mind was evidently affected by his dismissal; and whether, in view of his responsibility to this House for the proper management of national Army workshops, he will afford it an early opportunity of discussing the recent dismissals.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Haldane.) My attention has been drawn to this lamentable occurrence. I much regret that these discharges must take place. I
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  have just explained under what circumstances they have been made.

  Distress in Woolwich.
  SIR WILLIAM EVANS GORDON: To ask the Secretary of State for War whether his attention has been drawn to the distress prevailing in Woolwich owing to slackness of work in and discharges from the Royal Arsenal; and whether, in view of the fact that the approach of winter is likely to render this distress more acute, any steps are in contemplation for providing work for these men.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Haldane.) As I have already explained, discharges at Woolwich Arsenal have, unfortunately, been inevitable in view of the reduction of requirements since the termination of the war. I am doing all in my power to make the reductions as gradual and light as is consistent with my duty to the public generally.

  Cavalry in Scotland.
  MAJOR ANSTRUTHER-GRAY: To ask the Secretary of State for War whether he can give any information an to when the only cavalry regiment in Scotland is to be removed, and whither.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Haldane.) I have nothing to add to my reply to the hon. and gallant Member last Thursday. Details of the move have not yet been settled.†
  † See Col. 401.

  Royal Irish Constabulary Fund.
  MR. J. P. NANNETTI: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland if he will state when were the accounts of the Royal Irish Constabulary Force funds last audited; was any balance sheet sent to the subscribers; will he state the number of men now serving who are subscribers, and the number of pensioners who are subscribers at the present time to the fund; and what are the average annual disbursements to widows and orphans from the fund.
  (Answered by Mr. Bryce.) The accounts of the benefit branch of the Constabulary Force fund are audited annually
  † See Col. 401.

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  by the Comptroller and Auditor-General, whose certificate of the audit in respect of the year ending 31st March, 1905, was issued on 12th December last. The accounts for the year ending 31st March, 1906, are at present in course of audit. No balance sheet is issued to subscribers. The number of subscribers on 1st July last was 7,760, of whom 4,732 were pensioners and 3,028 still serving in the force. During the past five years the average annual disbursements to widows and orphans amounted to £15,240.

  Irish Assistant Teachers.
  MR. O'MALLEY: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether trained assistant teachers in the service prior to 1900 can be promoted to second and higher grades with corresponding salaries under ordinary circumstances and without special consideration in the same manner as principal teachers.
  (Answered by Mr. Bryce.) The Commissioners of National Education inform me that there is no provision in their rules for promoting assistant teachers in the manner indicated in the Question.

  Falchorrib Landing Stage.
  MR. HUGH LAW: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is now able to say what decision has been arrived at in regard to the provision of a landing place at Falchorrib, county Donegal.
  (Answered by Mr. Bryce.) As I informed the hon. Member on 14th March last,† a sum of £1,000 was at first provisionally mentioned in connection with proposed works at Falchorrib, but it was subsequently found that effective works would cost a much greater sum, and one disproportionate to the benefits to be derived. The Irish Government are at present in communication with the Board of Works with the object of ascertaining whether useful works could not be constructed at a cost which, though in excess of that originally mentioned, would still be within reasonable limits.

  Australian Imperial Preference Bill.
  MR. F. E. SMITH: To ask the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether a telegram was sent to Lord Northcote informing him in
  † (4) Debates, cliii., 1223.
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  effect that the proposed grant of a shipping preference contained in the Australian Imperial Preference Bill was contrary to international treaty obligations; if so, what was the date of such telegram and what treaties and what clauses of such treaties were relied upon as prohibitive of the shipping preference in question; whether the Law Officers of the Crown were consulted before the telegram was sent; and, if not, whether any legal advice was taken on the proper construction of such treaties.
  (Answered by Mr. Churchill.) The Secretary of State was not aware until 3rd October that a Bill, giving preference to British goods imported in British ships was actually before the Commonwealth Parliament. He thereupon telegraphed to the Governor-General on 4th October, stating that the Board of Trade had pointed out that while the right to give preference in respect of British goods was beyond question, preference to such goods by reason of British nationality of vessel carrying them would seem to be a violation of several treaties binding some or all of the Australian Colonies. The principal treaties in question are the treaties with Egypt 1889, Greece 1886, Italy 1883, Japan 1894, and Russia 1859, all of which contain articles expressly providing that goods may be imported in vessels of the foreign country in question without being liable to higher duties than if they are imported in British vessels. As the Bill was expected to pass in a few days, it was not possible to consult the Law Officers as to the meaning of these articles, but the whole question of the treaties will be further considered when the Secretary of State receives the Bill which the Governor-General has reserved for the signification of His Majesty's pleasure.

  Conviction of Juveniles.
  MR. WEDGWOOD: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many of the persons under sixteen years of age who were committed to prison in England and Wales during the twelve months to 31st March, 1906, were committed on summary jurisdiction, at quarter sessions, and at assizes, respectively; and in each case, how many were committed in default of payment of a fine of less than ten shillings and over ten shillings

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  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Gladstone.) 1,028 persons under sixteen years of age were committed to prisons in England and Wales during the twelve months ended 31st March, 1906, of whom 993 were committed from Courts of summary jurisdiction, twenty from quarter sessions, and fifteen from assizes. Of those committed from Courts of summary jurisdiction, 437 were in default of payment of a fine less than ten shillings, and 288 in default of payment of a fine of ten shillings and upwards. None of those committed from Courts of quarter sessions and assize were in default of payment of a fine.

  Motor Car and Bus Accidents.
  MR. WEIR: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home

  Number of accidents caused by

  Horse drawn Omnibuses.

  Other horse drawn vehicles (excluding tramcars).

  Tramcars.

  Motor Cars (including Motor Cycles).

  Motor Omnibuses.

  Total number of Accidents.

  Horse drawn.

  Mechanically propelled.

  192

  1,624

  61

  363

  349

  469

  3,058

  Number of accidents shown in preceding columns in which personal injury resulted, caused by

  Horse drawn Omnibuses.

  Other horse drawn vehicles (excluding tramcars).

  Tramcars.

  Motor Cars (including Motor Cycles).

  Motor Omnibuses.

  Total

  Horse drawn.

  Mechanically propelled.

  51

  551

  27

  129

  115

  95

  968

  Number of cases in which the injuries proved fatal when caused by

  Horse drawn Omnibuses.

  Other horse drawn vehicles (excluding tramcars).

  Tramcars.

  Motor Cars (including Motor Cycles).

  Motor Omnibuses.

  Total

  Horse drawn.

  Mechanically propelled.

  1

  22

  —

  1

  1

  2

  28

  Department if he will state the number of accidents in the metropolitan police district during the month of September caused by motor cars and motor omnibuses, respectively, showing in how many instances personal injuries have resulted; and in how many cases such injuries have proved fatal.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Gladstone.) The subjoined table gives information as to the accidents known to the police to have been caused in the streets during the month of September, not only by mechanical but also by horse drawn vehicles:—
  Return showing the number of accidents to persons or property known to the police to have been caused in the streets during the month of September 1906 by the vehicles named.

  Allowances to Signal Lieutenants in the Navy.
  MR. BELLAIRS: To ask the Secretary to the Admiralty whether he is aware that a memorandum, issued some years ago, stated that lieutenants, after passing a preliminary examination in signals and going through a course at the signal school, would, when subsequently acting as signal lieutenants, be paid an allowance of 2s. 6d. a day on the same principle as lieutenants specialising in gunnery, torpedo, navigation, sub marines, and gymnastics; and whether he will state if all lieutenants now performing signal duties obtain this extra pay.
  (Answered by Mr. Edmund Robertson.) No such orders as those referred to have been issued, but arrangements have been made recently for selected lieutenants to go through a course in the signal school and for the names of such officers as show themselves to be well qualified in signalling to be specially noted, with a view to their employment in that duty. Authority has also been obtained to pay an allowance to a lieutenant appointed as signal officer in a fleet, if the appointment is in addition to that of the flag lieutenant and the signal duties are not carried out by the latter officer.

  Freeboard on Cargo Ships.
  MR. BARKER: To ask the President of the Board of Trade if the Board have sanctioned the reduction of the freeboard on cargo ships, in consequence of which vessels will be permitted to be loaded from six to twelve inches above the recognised load-line; and, if so, will he state what justification there is for this proceeding, and if he will take steps to minimise the danger to life and property from reducing the freeboard.
  (Answered by Mr. Lloyd-George.) In March last the statutory tables of freeboard under which load-lines are assigned to vessels were so modified as to permit of the deeper loading, in varying degrees ranging from six to twelve inches, of certain classes of vessels of modern construction and approved strength, but the older vessels which do not come up to this standard are allowed no such deeper
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  loading. Such modification is provided for by Section 438 of The Merchant Shipping Act, 1894, and was adopted by the Board of Trade upon the recommendation of Lloyd's Register of British and Foreign Shipping, the Bureau Veritas, the British Corporation for the Survey and Registry of Shipping (the authorities appointed by statute to assign freeboards to vessels), and by the responsible technical officers of the Department, and the recommendation was made after careful consideration of the experience of the sixteen years' working of the tables, and of the result of exhaustive inquiries as to modern practice, both as regards the structure and seaworthiness of vessels. The investigations of the assigning bodies mentioned clearly led them to the conclusion that the deeper loading would in no way increase the danger to life and property in the vessels concerned.

  Vaccination Prosecution.
  MR. SCOTT: To ask the President of the Local Government Board if he will instruct vaccination officers to stay further proceedings being taken by them against parents for non-vaccination, pending the legislation promised for next year.
  (Answered by Mr. John Burns.) Looking to the statutory duties which devolve on the vaccination officers in this matter, it does not appear to me that I am empowered to give them any such instructions as those suggested.

  Site of the New Westminster County Court.
  MR. W. F. D. SMITH: To ask the Secretary to the Treasury whether it is proposed to rebuild the Westminster County Court on the site of the existing building in St. Martin's Lane; whether representations have been made by the Westminster City Council to the effect that the site is inconvenient and inadequate; and whether further inquiries will be made before the building is proceeded with.
  (Answered by Mr. McKenna.) The Answer to the first two parts of the Question is in the affirmative. As regards the last paragraph, I am informed that a new building adequate in all essentials can be erected on the ground occupied

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  by the present Court. The matter has received the fullest consideration.

  Reduction of Telegraphic Rates to India.
  SIR EDWARD SASSOON: To ask the Secretary of State for India whether, in view of the ignorance which prevails in Great Britain in regard to Indian affairs, he will consider the desirability of the Imperial Government taking early action towards the reduction of the Press and private telegraphic rates to India, which compare unfavourably with those to other British Possessions.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Morley.) The last reduction in the private telegraphic rate to India was effected in 1905, when the rate was reduced to 2s. a word, and the attention of the telegraph companies was at the same time called to the desirability of a further reduction in the Press rate, which had been reduced from Is. 4d. to Is. in 1902; but the companies were unwilling to agree, and the development of the traffic since 1905 has not been such as to justify a further endeavour to obtain a reduction in the rates. The subject will, however, continue to receive my careful attention.
  SIR EDWARD SASSOON: To ask the Secretary of State for India whether he is aware that during the past few months, owing to the conditions under which telegraphic news is supplied from India to England, and from England to India, complaints have arisen as to the insufficiency and misleading character of the news in regard, especially, to political events and whether he proposes to take any action in the matter.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Motley.) I have seen such complaints in the newspapers, and it is with the newspapers rather than with His Majesty's Government that it would seem to rest to take any action which may be desired.

  Army Officers' Married Quarters at Poona.
  SIR SEYMOUR KING: To ask the Secretary of State for India whether his attention has been drawn to the inconvenience which is involved at Poona, particularly to junior married military officers, with regard to house rents, the average rate a married man has to pay being stated at 150 rupees a month,
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  or £20 a year; and to the fact that in the N cavalry lines there are only the mess and five bungalows, one for the commissioned officer's house, one for the second in command, and two others suitable only for bachelors, who living at the mess have a prior claim, while the nearest available bungalows for married officers are from one-and-a-half to two miles distant and over two level railway crossings; and whether, seeing that in Presidency towns, such as Calcutta, Bombay, and Madras where similar conditions exist as to high rent and expenditure, relief is afforded by a Presidency house allowance, he will explain why this cannot be afforded also at Poona, or some steps be taken to provide cheaper accommodation.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Morley.) The inconvenience experienced at Poona has not hitherto come under my notice. I will make inquiries on the subject.

QUESTIONS IN THE HOUSE.

  Greenwich Observatory.
  MR. ASHLEY: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Admiralty if he can now state the result of the inquiry of Lord Ross's Committee into the alleged disturbances at Greenwich Observatory, caused by the London County Council Electric Power Station; and, if not, when the Report of the Committee is likely to be made.
  THE SECRETARY TO THE ADMIRALTY (Mr. EDMUND ROBERTSON,): The Committee's investigations are now practically complete, and they hope to be in a position to present their Report very shortly.

  The Home Fleet.
  MR. RIDSDALE: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Admiralty whether, under the new memorandum constituting a Home fleet, the number of battleships in full commission will be reduced.
  MR. EDMUND ROBERTSON: The battleships have been arranged in what the Board consider to be a more efficient fighting disposition. Two battleships from the Channel, Mediterranean, and

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  Atlantic Fleets will be added to the Home Fleet.

  Sleeping Sickness.
  *MR. REES: I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether any report has been received from Dr. Koch upon the sleeping sickness; and what stops are being taken to preserve the British Central Africa Protectorate from this disease.
  *THE UNDER SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE COLONIES (Mr. CHURCHILL,): No report has, as far as is known, been received from Dr. Koch, whose commission was appointed by the Imperial German Government. It is proposed as soon as the rains are over that two special medical officers selected by the Liverpool School of Tropical Medicine, who have generously offered to pay the salaries of both officers, should proceed to the British Central Africa Protectorate, study the local conditions, and suggest precautionary measures. It is presumed that these officers will arrive in the Protectorate in January next.

  New Hebrides Convention.
  MR. WILLIAM REDMOND. I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether the New Hebrides Convention was agreed to without the assent first being obtained of the Governments of New Zealand and the Australian Commonwealth; and, if this be so, if he can state why His Majesty's Government did not consult with and obtain the opinion of Australasian statesmen on a matter so vitally affecting Australasia.
  MR. CHURCHILL: The New Hebrides Convention was not signed until the views of the Governments of Australia and New Zealand upon it had been consulted and their acquiescence, albeit reluctant, obtained. But long before the draft was even provisionally concluded the Secretary of State had been in constant and detailed communication with the Colonial Governments concerned; and during the protracted negotiations which have taken place, no effort has been spared and no resource neglected to secure the permanent interests of these Colonies, and
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  the largest possible measure of their claims.
  MR. WILLIAM REDMOND: Is the House to understand that the Government of New Zealand, as well as the Australian Government, acquiesced in this Convention, or is it not the fact that they protested against it?
  *MR. CHURCHILL: "Their acquiescence, albeit reluctant," is a statement which corresponds with the facts.
  SIR GILBERT PARKER: When will the Papers relating to the Convention be laid on the Table of the House?
  *MR. CHURCHILL: It is the first time that the matter has been pressed upon us, but I will consult the Secretary of State and find out what Papers can be laid upon the Table of the House, and, if so, when.
  MR. WILLIAM REDMOND: Cannot information also be got at the same time for the use of Members as to the views expressed by the Australasian Governments on this matter?
  *MR. CHURCHILL: That is a question for the Foreign Office, I think. I will ask the Secretary of State.

  Railway Extension in Nigeria.
  MR. LONSDALE: I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether any decision has yet been arrived at by the Government in regard to railway extension in Nigeria, and whether he can make any announcement on the subject.
  *MR. CHURCHILL: No, Sir; but a definite statement of railway policy both in Southern and Northern Nigeria will be made as soon as the Secretary of State is in a position to do so.
  MR. LONSDALE: When will a decision be come to?
  *MR. CHURCHILL: I hope it will be announced by Christmas, but I cannot give any definite pledge.

  Unemployed White Labour on the Rand
  MR. PICKERSGILL: I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether 1,000 whites have been discharged from the Rand mines during the past six months; and whether 1,000 skilled whites on the Rand are now registered as unemployed.
  MR. CHURCHILL: Yes, Sir. The number of white workmen employed in the Witwatersrand gold mines was diminished during the six months from April to September by nearly 1,000; and during the same period the increase in the numbers of Chinese under licences issued by the late Government was 3,598. There are numbers of white men on the Rand who are at present unemployed, but I am not able to say how many. I should add that there is abundant evidence that the population of the Witwatorsrand are becoming fully alive to the significance of these facts, and they will shortly be able to express their own views of them in a representative assembly.
  SIR GILBERT PARKER: Does the hon. Member attribute, as I infer, the discharge of the white men to the introduction of 3,000 Chinamen? [Cries from the LABOUR PARTY of "Certainly."]
  MR. CHURCHILL: It is concurrent with, if not consequent upon, it.
  MR. MARKHAM: Cannot information be given of the decrease in Kaffir labour for the same period, and is there any information showing that any of the Chinese are doing the work of skilled white labour?
  MR CHURCHILL: Perhaps the hon. Member will give me notice of the Question.

  Rand Mine Regulations.
  MR. PICKERSGILL: I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether the Chinese labourers in the Rand mines are now required to make their complaints to the mine managers, instead of to the inspectors under the Superintendent of Foreign Labour, as heretofore
  MR. CHURCHILL: No, Sir, I am not aware of any such alteration.

  The Chicago Scandals.
  SIR WILLIAM BULL: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he can now give further information with reference to the Report by Mr. Fenn, the Consul at Chicago, with reference to the meat establishments; has the Report been received; has it been examined by an expert as promised, and will it be published; and, if so, when.
  THE SECRETARY TO THE LOCAL GOVERNMENT BOARD (Mr. RUNCIMAN,for Sir EDWARD GREY): As was stated in reply to a Question on 26th June last,† the Report was sent to the Local Government Board. The question of its publication is being considered.
  SIR WILLIAM BULL.It was promised that it should be considered in June last.
  MR. RUNCIMAN: Yes, Sir, and it is still being considered.

  The Bahr-el-Ghazal.
  MR. LONSDALE: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether the Congolese troops have evacuated the Soudanese Bahr-el-Ghazal, in accordance with the terms of the Anglo-Belgian Convention.
  MR. RUNC1MAN: The Answer is in the negative.

  Morocco and the Algeciras Protocol.
  MR. LONSDALE: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether the Sultan of Morocco has formally signified his accession to the Algeciras Protocol, and whether be has attached any conditions thereto.
  MR. RUNCLMAN: The Sultan has acceded to the Algeciras Act, and ratified it as it stands. It would not be admissible to attach new conditions to it.

  Imprisonment of Juvenile Offenders.
  MR. WEDGWOOD: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether
  † See (4)Debates, clix., 769.

  1103
  his attention has been called to the Report of the Governor of Leeds Prison for 1906–6, in which he urges that instead of sending young lads to prison for nonpayment of fines and costs for such offences as playing at football in the streets and obstructing the footway, it would be better to write off these fines as irrecoverable, and so prevent these youngsters getting such a first taste of prison life; whether it is possible to compel the parents or guardians of children under sixteen, where their imprisonment is in lieu of a fine, to pay the tines and costs; and, if not, whether the Government will take steps, at an early date, to make such an arrangement possible.
  *THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE HOME DEPARTMENT (Mr. GLADSTONE,): I have seen the Report to which my hon. friend refers. I entirely sympathise with his objection to the committal of young lads to prison for offences of the character indicated; but I do not see how it can altogether be avoided. It would be impossible to maintain order in the streets if such offences were to go unpunished, and there is great difficulty in finding any other mode of punishment. There is already power to fine the parents if they have conduced to the commission of the offence either by wilful default or by neglect; but of course there are many cases where, a parent, at work all day, is guilty of neither default nor neglect. The subject is receiving my careful attention, and I hope shortly to introduce a Bill to provide for the probation of offenders, which will, I hope, have some effect in reducing the number of young persons sent to prison.

  Traction Engine Traffic Prosecutions.
  MR. MARKHAM: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department will he say by virtue of what section of what Act of Parliament, if any, the police are excused from taking proceedings against the owners of traction engines who commit a public or private nuisance, within the meaning of Section 13 of the Locomotive Act of 1861; and whether he will take the opinion of the Law Officers of the Crown as to whether it is not the duty of the police to take action when they are
  1104
  cognisant of any offence punishable by fine or imprisonment committed contrary to an Act of Parliament.
  *MR. GLADSTONE: My hon. friend's Question is, I think, asked under a misapprehension. The section to which he refers has only the effect of saving the right of persons aggrieved or of local authorities to take proceedings by indictment or by action for nuisance; it imposes no obligation on anyone to take proceedings.
  MR. MARKHAM: Then, am I to understand that, although the police have cognisance of an offence under the Act, the householder himself must take action? Surely you don't expect a man to get out of his bed at night for that purpose?
  *MR. GLADSTONE: It is obvious that the offence must be proved by aggrieved persons on the spot.

  Motor Prosecutions.
  MR. MARKHAM: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department will he say if he has at any time given the Commissioner of Police a discretional power in the matter of motor prosecutions; and, if not, will he instruct this officer that his duties are to administer the law as enacted by Parliament.
  *MR. GLADSTONE: The discretionary power of the Commissioner arises not from any instructions of mine, but from the provisions of the law. It is the duty of the Commissioner to take reasonable steps to enforce the Motor-Car Acts; but no obligation is imposed on him by those Acts to prosecute in every case where an offence may possibly have been committed. In that matter a wide discretion is left him by the law, and that discretion he has, I am satisfied, exercised wisely and with a full sense of the responsibilities imposed on him.
  MR. MARKHAMwas understood to ask if the right hon. Gentleman was aware that the streets that day had been filled with petrol vapour. Was it not possible to construct motor cars which did not emit vapour?
  *MR. GLADSTONE: The Commissioner is taking expert advice on this point.

  Motor Omnibus Accidents in London.
  MR. WEIR: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department, having regard to the fact that motor omnibuses were responsible for 797 accidents in the metropolitan police district during the months of July and August, resulting in 149 cases of personal injury, including six deaths, can he state approximately what percentage of these accidents are attributable to side-slips; and will he state whether motor omnibus proprietors have yet been requested to introduce some device for the prevention of side-slips.
  *MR. GLADSTONE: I am afraid I cannot give any estimate. Many of the accidents which occur are not witnessed by the police, and they cannot with accuracy state what proportion of them are attributable to side-slip. I am assured that proprietors and makers of motor omnibuses are sparing no efforts to discover the means of remedying the tendency to side-slip.

  Alien Immigration.
  SIR W. EVANS GORDON: beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether his attention has been called to the orders issued by the provincial authorities of the Rhineland, Westphalia, under which many thousands of foreign working men, chiefly Russians from Poland and the Baltic provinces, will be immediately expelled from Prussia; whether numbers of these people are finding their way to this country; and whether persons expelled from Germany on economic grounds will be regarded here as political refugees and allowed to flood the mining industry.
  *MR. GLADSTONE: I am aware that there have been newspaper reports to the effect of the first paragraph of the Question, but I have no authentic information on the subject. There is no indication at present of any influx into this country of the persons referred to. I am unable to answer hypothetical questions as to the meaning of political refugee. The hon. and gallant Member will recollect, moreover, that the Question does not
  1106
  arise except in a case where the immigrant is required, but is unable, to show that he has, or is in a position to obtain, the means of decently supporting himself.
  SIR W. EVANS GORDON: Will the I right hon. Gentleman take steps to ascertain if those evictions are taking place in Prussia?
  *MR. GLADSTONE: Assuming that the statements are correct, we have no indication of any increased arrivals here.

  Deported Aliens.
  SIR W. EVANS GORDON: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Homo Department whether he can state how many persons recommended for expulsion from this country have not had deportation orders made against them; what were the offences for which their expulsion was recommended by the Courts; what was the nationality of such persons; and what were the reasons in each case for ignoring the recommendations of the convicting tribunals?
  *MR. GLADSTONE: In nineteen cases out of the 235 recommendations which have up to the present time become ripe for my decision, orders have not been made. In three of those no orders were necessary, as the aliens were removed from the United Kingdom by their own Consul, at his special request. In four others, the recommendations were made by Courts which had no jurisdiction to make them, and I was precluded therefore from acting on them. In the remaining twelve, I decided, after full consideration of all the circumstances, not to make expulsion orders. The offences involved in the twelve cases were:—eight larcency and receiving, two soliciting, one drunk and disorderly, and one begging. The nationalities were:—six Russian, and one each of French, German, Spanish, Austrian, Roumanian, Swedish. I may add that one of these twelve aliens abused his opportunity, rendered himself again liable to expulsion, and was expelled. I do not think it desirable to enter into the grounds upon which, in the exercise of the discretion given me by Statute, I came to these decisions: but I may say that they included such considerations as the length of time the alien had been in this country, the dependence on him or

  1107
  her of a family mostly British-born, the fact that it was a first offence, an undertaking by a Consul to look after the alien, etc.

  German Gipsies.
  SIR W. EVANS GORDON: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he is aware that since August last 159 policemen have been engaged in Cheshire on special duty in accompanying bodies of gipsies who are travelling about the country; whether the shipping companies who brought these people to England are known; whether more persons of the same class are being brought; and whether the same regulations to stop the influx which proved effectual in the Scottish case will be adopted.
  *MR. GLADSTONE: I am aware that the police in Cheshire, as in other counties, have been much concerned with wandering bands of alien gipsies. These bands form part, I believe, of those who arrived in Scotland earlier in the year. No gipsies are now being brought to the United Kingdom or have been brought since I took steps to stop the incursion into Scotland.

  Gloucester Prison Outbreak.
  MR. GODFREY BARING: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether, in view of the recent outbreak amongst the prisoners in His Majesty's Prison at Gloucester and the subsequent escape of four men, he has any official reports showing that the present staff of officers in local prisons is sufficient to secure the safe custody of prisoners.
  *MR. GLADSTONE: There are no such reports, but every representation from the governor of a prison to the effect that his staff is insufficient is very carefully considered, and when an increase of staff is proved to be necessary it is always granted. The outbreak at Gloucester was not due to any insufficiency of staff, but to an unfortunate neglect by one of the officers on duty of an elementary precaution, viz., that not more than one cell door shall be unlocked at the same time when work is being removed from the prisoners' cells previously to locking up the prison.
  MR. CLAUDE HAY: Has the right hon. Gentleman had any representation with regard to discipline in this prison?
  *MR. GLADSTONE: That hardly arises on this Question.

  Vivisection Commission.
  MR. RIDSDALE: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department, if he is aware that it has been decided to hold the sittings of the Royal Commission on Vivisection in private; and will he say if there has been any recent precedent for such a course.
  *MR. GLADSTONE: I am aware of the decision of the Royal Commission, but, as I said last week, the question whether any one shall be admitted during the taking of evidence is a matter within the discretion of the Commissioners. In several recent cases the evidence has been taken in private; I may instance the Motor Car Commission, the War Commission of 1002, and the Royal Commission on Food Supply in Time of War.
  MR. G. GREENWOOD: May I ask if the right hon. Gentleman will use his influence with the Commissioners, in view of the public feeling on this question, to induce them to admit accredited members of the Press to their sittings?
  *MR. GLADSTONE: Officially I have no power whatever to interfere with a Royal Commission.
  MR. G. GREENWOOD: I used the word influence.
  MR. LUPTON: Is there not an official of the Home Office on the Commission?
  *MR. GLADSTONE: One of the Members of the Commissioners is an official of the Home Office.

  The Imprisoned Female Suffragists.
  MR. HUGH LAW: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for-the Home Department whether the eleven ladies, who are suffering imprisonment in connection with the movement in favour

  1109
  of women's suffrage, have been obliged to wear prison clothes, and are otherwise being treated as ordinary criminals.
  The following Questions also appeared on the Paper.
  MR. MASTERMAN: To ask the Secretary or State for the Home Department whether his attention has been called to the case of eleven women committed to prison for two months at the Westminster Police Court on the 24th October; whether he has been informed that one of those prisoners has been released owing to the serious condition of her health, and another is in hospital; and whether he is prepared, as was done in the similar case of Mr. John Kensit, to transfer them to the class of first-class misdemeanants.
  MR. KEIR HAKDIE: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether, having regard to the fact that the women suffragettes now imprisoned in Holloway Gaol are political rather than criminal offenders, he will consider whether they can be treated as first-class misdemeanants, as was done in the case of the Jameson raiders.
  LORD R. CECIL: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he will take measures to cause the women suffragists recently arrested to be treated as first-class misdemeanants; and whether the treatment ordered in the case of Mr. W. T. Stead some years ago would not be sufficient to meet the requirements of justice in the present cases.
  MR. BYLES: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he is aware that the ten ladies who were sent to prison by the Westminster police magistrate last Wednesday, under circumstances well known to the House, two have already become seriously ill; and, having regard to the absence of moral delinquency in the offence for which these ladies are imprisoned, will he order them to be treated in future as first-class misdemeanants.
  *MR. GLADSTONE: I propose to I answer along with the hon. Member's Question those of the hon. Members for
  1110
  West Ham, Merthyr Tydfil, East Marylebone, and North Salford. The ladies, who were committed to prison in default of finding sureties, have been treated in accordance with Section 6 of the Prison Act, 1898, which enacts that, unless the Court has directed them to be placed in the first division, they are to be placed in the second division. They have had to wear prison clothes, but have not associated with the ordinary criminal of the third class. I have carefully considered the question of placing them in the first division. The cases of Mr. Stead and the Jameson raiders afford no parallel, as they were convicted prisoners whose treatment could be altered by a conditional pardon from the Crown. In the case of Mr. Kensit, who was a surety prisoner, the order for inclusion in the first division was made by the stipendiary magistrate. I am advised that I have no power to make such an order, and that it can be made only by the Court. As it appeared that no application was made to the magistrate when he committed the ladies that he should direct them to be placed in the first division, I have brought the matter to his notice; and I am glad to say that he has seen his way to direct that they should be treated as first division offenders, and has this morning sent an order to this effect to the prison authorities.
  MR. KEIR HARDIEasked whether this statement applied to Miss Sylvia. Pankhurst?
  *MR. GLADSTONE: Yes, it does.

  Prison Discipline.
  MR. MYER: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department, if his attention has been called to the report that the mutinous convicts from Maidstone have been sentenced at Dartmoor to fifty days special diet, to lose all marks, and, in addition, to six months separate confinement; and whether separate confinement means solitary confinement; and, if so, whether he has sanctioned the sentence,
  *MR. GLADSTONE: The sentences awarded by the director at Dartmoor vary from a minimum of ton days No. 1 diet, with forfeiture of three months remission, up to fifteen days No. 1 diet,

  1111
  and forty-two days No. 2 diet, forfeiture of marks for remission, close confinement within the legal limit of twenty-eight days, and a second period of separate confinement for six months. Separate confinement does not mean solitary confinement, but only that a prisoner works in his cell instead of working with a party; he has the regular daily exercise, daily visits and instruction in his trade, attends chapel services, and is allowed library books. The sentences do not require the sanction of the Secretary of State, but are within the statutory powers of a director.
  MR. MARKHAMasked whether the right hon. Gentleman would take into consideration the question of abolishing punishments inflicted with the object of causing physical pain to the men through their stomachs. Was he aware that No. 1 diet is lower than that given in the concentration camps in South Africa which was condemned by His Majesty's present Ministers as unworthy of this country?
  *MR. GLADSTONE: The question of prison punishment is not easy. You must punish some part of a man. Perhaps my hon. friend will make a suggestion to me on the subject.
  MR. MARKHAM: Birch him.

  Case of Mr. Nettleton of Southend,
  *MR. SEARS: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether his attention has been called to the case of Mr. Nettleton, of Southend-on-Sea, who was sentenced to seven days' imprisonment in Chelmsford Gaol for passive resistance, although on the previous occasion he was only sentenced to three days and detained one day; that, although he attended the Court, his case was not mentioned during the public hearing of the business of the Court, but was dealt with and the warrant for his arrest issued privately; that he was placed in a dirty cell with two w.c.'s at the police station; that the gaol regulation prescribed tea and bread for the two early meals, and an eight ounce loaf and a pint of cocoa at night, which latter he could not drink owing to its fatty nature, and in fact he lived on bread and water the whole of the seven days of his detention, and has suffered in
  1112
  health in consequence; and will he cause inquiries to be made into the case.
  *MR. GLADSTONE: The question of the term for which a person in default of payment of rates should be committed to prison is one for the justices. I have no authority to interfere in the matter, and I have no reason to think there was in this case any irregularity in the procedure. The condition of the police cells is a matter for the local police authority, to whom complaint may be made if anything was wrong. As regards Mr. Nettleton's prison treatment, I have made inquiry and am satisfied that there was no ground for complaint. The prisoner was allowed the diet prescribed for debtors, which, besides bread and tea in the morning and bread and cocoa in the evening, gives a considerable variety of diet for dinner, meat, soup, beans and other things. He made no complaint whilst he was in prison, and there is no record of his having returned any of his food.

  London Restaurants Closing Hours.
  MR. BELLOC: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether his attention has been called to the fact that certain of the wealthier restaurants in London, notably the Savoy Restaurant, are permitted to retain their customers upon licensed premises after legal hours; and whether he will instruct the police to put an end to such a privilege.
  *MR. GLADSTONE: Customers are not permitted to remain on licensed premises after the hour at which the premises are required to be closed. That hour is generally fixed by statute, but the local authority is empowered to permit licensed premises on special occasions to remain open for a limited time after that hour, and such permission is from time to time given to licensed premises, without regard to their being wealthy or otherwise, provided that the local authority is satisfied that the occasion is a special one within the meaning of the Acts.
  MR. BELLOC: Is special permission given to these restaurants, the Savoy, Cecil, and Carlton, to remain open half an hour later than the ordinary time of closing?
  *MR. GLADSTONE: I have no doubt it has been given. Permission is given in hundreds of cases. It is special to each case.
  MR. PICKERSGILL: Is that a general provision?
  *MR. GLADSTONE: No, it is special in each case.
  MR. BELLOC: How can I find out whether permission has been given in a particular case?
  *MR. GLADSTONE; If the lion. Member will give me the case I will give him the information.
  MR. BELLOC: I shall be happy to give the right hon. Gentleman a dozen cases.

  Chobham Motor Fatality.
  MR. WEIR: I beg to ask the President of the Local Government Board whether his attention has been called to a recent accident at Chobham, through which a cyclist lost his life in consequence of being ridden down by a motor car driven by Lieutenant Paton; and, seeing that the car travelled nearly 200 yards from the scene of the accident before it could be stopped, will he consider the expediency of introducing legislation such as will secure the imprisonment of persons who drive motor vehicles at excessive speeds on public thoroughfares.
  THE PRESIDENT OF THE LOCAL GOVERNMENT BOARD (Mr. JOHN BURNS,): I have seen a newspaper report of the inquest in this case. As regards the question generally of penalties for driving at a speed or in a manner which is dangerous to the public, I may point out that under Section 11 of the Motor Car Act, 1903, a person guilty of this offence is not only liable to a pecuniary penalty, but in the case of a second or subsequent conviction he may, at the discretion of the Court, be imprisoned for a period not exceeding three months. Whether any alteration should be proposed in the penalties prescribed by the Act is a matter which will receive my consideration in connection with the Report of the Royal Commission on Motor Cars; but I may state that the
  1114
  Commission did not recommend any such alteration as regards this particular offence.
  MR. LUPTON. Will the right hon. Gentleman send down inspectors to be present at inquests on fatalities caused by motor cars?
  MR. JOHN BURNS: I will consider the matter.

  South Stoneham Union.
  SIR ROBERT HOBART: I beg to ask the President of the Local Government Board why the Local Government Board is forcing an inquiry upon the inhabitants of the Southampton incorporation and South Stoneham union, respecting the dissolution of the Southampton incorporation and the formation of a new union to comprise, in addition to the old Southampton incorporation area, the two parishes of Portswood and Shirley, now in the South Stoneham union, when such inquiry has not been asked for by either board of guardians nor by any local authority; and whether he is aware that such inquiry is directly contrary to the decision of the House of Commons, who had the whole question before it in July, 1905, that the two above-mentioned parishes should not be added to the Southampton incorporation without a Parliamentary inquiry.
  MR. JOHN BURNS: The South Stoneham guardians proposed to provide further infirmary accommodation, and as this would not be required if the parishes of Portswood and Shirley were taken out of the union, it is necessary that the question whether this alteration of area should be made should be finally settled. The Local Government Board consequently propose to hold a local inquiry on the subject. The Southampton guardians have passed a unanimous resolution in favour of the dissolution of the incorporation and the formation of a new union comprising the parishes above-mentioned. I am aware that a Select Committee in 1905 inserted in a Bill to confirm a Provisional Order on this subject a clause which would in certain circumstances have prevented these parishes from being included in a union formed under the Order except by means of a further

  1115
  Provisional Order, but the Bill was not proceeded with, and under the general law the Local Government Board are empowered to alter Poor Law Unions at their discretion.

  Deaths from Starvation in London.
  MR. ALDEN: I beg to ask the President of the Local Government Board whether his attention has been called to a Home Office Return, for 1904, of the number of deaths in London upon which a coroner's jury has returned a verdict of death from starvation or death accelerated by privation, together with the observations furnished to the Local Government Board by boards of guardians with reference to such cases; whether he is aware that there were forty-two such deaths in London, of which ten were in the eastern district, and whether seven out of those ten were in the White-chapel district; whether he has considered the attitude of the Whitechapel guardians with reference to medical and other out-relief; and what steps, if any, the Local Government Board or the Poor Law inspectors of the Whitechapel district have taken to prevent a recurrence of deaths in Whitechapel of poor persons needing medical or other relief from the like cause.
  MR JOHN BURNS: I have seen the Return, which gives the facts as stated in the Question. I am aware of the attitude of the guardians of the Whitechapel Union towards outdoor relief; but I would point out that in each of the cases in that union mentioned in the Return there does not appear to have been any application for outdoor relief. The applications are stated to have been for admission to the infirmary, and they seem to have been immediately granted. I do not understand that there was any default on the part of the guardians or their officers in any of the cases referred to.
  MR. CROOKS: Is it not a fact that Whitechapol makes it generally known that it gives no out-door relief, and that, therefore, there is no use applying?
  MR. JOHN BURNS: That does not apply to the cases mentioned in the Question, which are all infirmary cases. If application were made, the Whitechapel and all other boards of guardians throughout the country would at once request their
  1116
  officers to administer relief in such a regrettable emergency.
  *DR. COOPER: Is it not the fact that with one case—the death of a child of four months—the Stepney guardians refused relief unless the whole family went into the workhouse?
  MR. JOHN BURNS: I cannot say.

  Technological Institute.
  MR. BUTCHER: I beg to ask the President of the Board of Education whether he is prepared to give information as to the proposed constitution of the new Technological Institute, at South Kensington; and in particular whether arrangements will be made for the adequate representation of any other Universities than London on the governing body.
  THE PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD OF EDUCATION (Mr. BIRRELL,): The consideration of this most important matter, and the various negotiations which have been necessary in regard to it, have not reached a sufficiently definite stage for me to be aide to come to a definite decision upon the best manner in which the new institution should first be established. The real question which has to be decided is whether the new institution is to have a separate existence (at all events at first), or whether it cannot be from the outset an integral part of the University of London. This latter possibility depends upon how far the London University would be prepared to go as regards changes in the existing constitution of its senate in the directions needed to render this possible. A decision on this important question must very soon be arrived at, and I am on the point of communicating officially with the University in regard to it.

  Corporal Punishment in Schools.
  *DR. COOPER: I beg to ask the President of the Board of Education whether the Board of Education has presented to it any Return as to the frequency of corporal punishment in the girls' and infants' departments of the public elementary schools; whether the Board of Education has any control or power to frame any rules as to the method of this form of

  1117
  punishment or as to the persons who can exercise it; and, if the Board of Education has the right to control, whether he will consider the advisability of abolishing corporal punishment in the girls' and infants' departments of all elementary schools.
  MR. BIRRELL: The Board have no Beturns of the kind referred to in the Question. Punishment books, in which of course all cases of corporal punishment should be recorded, are usually kept by the head teacher and are open to examination by the inspector. If properly kept those punishment books are valuable and ought, in my opinion, always to be kept. The Board have full power to frame rules on the subject, but have thought it best to confine themselves to making suggestions to local authorities. These suggestions are to be found on page 11 of the Board's "Suggestions for the Consideration of Teachers," and are as follows:—"In no case should infants be punished by the infliction of bodily pain, nor should girls be subjected to corporal punishment unless in exceptional cases, and then if possible at the hands of a woman teacher." Personally, I am strongly opposed to corporal punishment of girls, and I can assure the hon. Member that the whole question of the administration of corporal punishment is carefully watched by the Board of Education and its inspectors in conjunction with the local education authorities.
  MR. O'GRADY: Has a parent the right to inspect the punishment book?
  MR. BIREELL: I do not think so. I can assure the hon. Member that corporal punishment is going out of use, and I should certainly be indisposed formally to prohibit it when I am persuaded such a course is not desirable.
  MR. PICKERSGILL: Is it not in the discretion of the teacher to make the entries in the punishment book?
  MR. BIRRELL: I regret that discretion. I think he should be obliged to do it.
  *DR. COOPER: Is a punishment book kept in the infants' department?
  MR. BIRRELL: I will inquire.

  Aignish Crofter Settlement, Island of Lewis.
  MR. WEIR: I beg to ask the Secretary for Scotland, if he will state the name and occupation of the person who valued the land which forms the crofter settlement at Aignish, Island of Lewis, and who set out the crofts and fixed the rents
  THE SECRETARY FOR SCOTLAND (Mr. SINCLAIR,): The farm of Aignish was lotted out by a member of the Crofters Commission acting for the Congested Districts Board and the rents were fixed by that body also on behalf of the Congested Districts Board with the approval of the proprietor.
  MR. WEIR: Will the right hon. Gentlemen give me the name of the incompetent person who is responsible for this?
  MR. SINCLAIR: No, Sir. The Congested Districts Board are ultimately responsible.

  Sanitation at Cromarty and Stornoway.
  MR. WEIR: I beg to ask the Secretary for Scotland whether he will lay upon the Table of the House the recent report by Dr. Dittmar, the medical inspector for Scotland, on the general sanitary condition of the burgh of Cromarty; and will he consider the expediency of directing the medical inspector to prepare a similar report in regard to the burgh of Stornoway.
  MR. SINCLAIR: The report on Cromarty is not, I am advised, of sufficient general interest to justify its being printed as a Parliamentary Paper. The Local Government Board for Scotland have not received any complaints which would lead them to suppose that there is any urgent or exceptional reason for instituting an immediate medical inspection of Stornoway, which will be over taken by the medical inspector in due course.

  Foreign Trawlers off the Scotch Coast.
  MR. WEIR: I beg to ask the Secretary for Scotland whether he has yet consulted with the Law Officers of the Crown as to the steps to be taken to check illegal trawling by foreign trawlers, in view of the unanimous decision of the Judges of the High Court of Justiciary at

  1119
  Edinburgh, in respect of the Moray Firth foreign trawler's case.
  MR. SINCLAIR: The subject is under the consideration of the Government, and at present I cannot with any further advantage add to the information which is at present available to the public.

  Blackpool Post Office.
  MR. ASHLEY: I beg to ask the Postmaster-General whether he will take steps to hasten the revision of the clerical staff of the Blackpool Post Office, now two years' overdue, in view of the fact that the staff is the same as it was eight years ago, in spite of the increase of work due to the rapid growth of the town.
  THE POSTMASTER - GENERAL (Mr. SYDNEY BUXTON,): A revision of the indoor force at the Blackpool Post Office is in preparation, and will, I hope, be shortly carried out. It is not the case, as suggested by the hon. Member, that the staff has remained stationary for the last eight years, increases having been made from time to time to meet increase of work.
  MR. ASHLEY: But none in the clerical staff.

  Preston Post Office Revision.
  MR. ASHLEY: I beg to ask the Postmaster-General whether the revision at the Preston Office, promised by him on 17th July, has yet been carried out.
  MR. SYDNEY BUXTON: The revision was carried out on the 26th August last. A few of the vacancies in connection with it have not yet been filled, but the matter is being expedited as much as possible.

  Sub-Postmasters' Holidays.
  MR. RAPHAEL: I beg to ask the Postmaster-General if arrangements can be made to grant an annual holiday to sub-postmasters and mistresses without deduction of salary.
  MR. SYDNEY BUXTON: This is a question that may be affected by the
  1120
  Report of the Committee on Postal Servants. I am therefore unable to deal with it until the Committee has reported.

  Stoke-on Trent Post Office.
  MR. J. WARD: I beg to ask the Postmaster-General whether he can give the date on which negotiations were first opened between his department and the North Stafford Railway Company with reference to the building of a new post office at Stoke-on-Trent; whether the proceedings are being delayed by a demand on the part of his department that the proposed office-should be built by the company upon their land, and the inability of the company to provide land for that purpose; and whether he has any other adjacent alternative site under consideration.
  MR. SYDNEY BUXTON: The Question of a new post office at Stoke-on-Trent was first discussed with the North Staffordshire Railway Company about four years ago. There is no difference with the company of the nature suggested by the hon. Member, and I have not therefore thought it necessary to consider an alternative site. I hope that the matter will now make progress.

  Maindee West Signal Box.
  MR. CHIOZZA MONEY: I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade if his attention has been directed to the fact that on Friday evening, 19th October, Mr. Edward Morgan, being then in sole charge of the Maindee West signal-box, the most important in the Newport district, had a paralytic seizure, and that, with extraordinary presence of mind, he locked all signals at danger before losing consciousness; whether he will direct the attention of the Great Western Railway Company to the danger both to the health of signalmen and the travelling public which arises from the practice of placing a man for long hours in solitary confinement in an important signal-box; and whether he can state to what extent this practice prevails on the Great Western and other British railways.
  THE PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY TO THE BOARD OF TRADE (Mr. KEARLEY,): I have no information other than references in the

  1121
  Press with regard to the case mentioned by my hon. friend. I am advised that, except at large signal-boxes at terminal stations and important junctions, it is the usual custom for one signalman to be alone in charge of the box. I am not aware that this practice has led to accidents, and the matter does not appear to be one that calls for any action on the part of the Board of Trade. The normal position of a signal is, of course, at danger.
  MR. CHIOZZA MONEY: Does the hon. Gentleman approve of only one man being in charge of so important a signal-box?
  MR. KEARLEY: We will make representations on the subject.

  Census of Production Bill.
  MR. LIDDELL: I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade, if an agreement has been arrived at between the Board of Trade and the manufacturers of this country as to the form the Government inquiries shall take under the Census of Production Bill; when this Bill will be considered by the Standing Committee on Trade; and will he take care, considering the leakage of Government official secrets in the Press, that the utmost precautions be taken in the event of the Bill passing into law to ensure that the information compulsorily supplied by manufacturers to the Board of Trade shall not be available for foreign or trade rivals, particularly in view of the handicaps imposed by our fiscal system on home manufacturers.
  MR. KEARLEY; My right hon friend has been in communication with a number of Members of this House and gentlemen outside this House possessing practical acquaintance with manufacture on certain points connected with the Census of Production Bill, and as a result of numerous conferences I propose setting down a number of Amendments limiting the nature of the inquiries to be made under the Bill. I also propose to insert a provision for the constitution of committees including representatives of various trades to advise the Board of Trade as to the form of the inquiries to be made under the Bill when passed into law. I hope that the Bill will be considered by the Grand Committee on
  1122
  Trade next Tuesday. Every care will be taken to make impossible any disclosure of information relating to individual firms or of a confidential nature, and stringent penalties are provided for in the Bill with this object.

  H.M.S. "Vigilant."
  SIR W. EVANS GORDON: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury how many persons accompanied the deputy chairman of Customs on his recent tour of inspection of two months duration in the Customs' cruiser "Vigilant;" whether the party consisted of officials or of the family and private friends of the deputy chairman; if the latter, who paid their expenses and at what place were they taken on board.
  THE FINANCIAL SECRETARY TO THE TREASURY (Mr. MCKENNA,): The cruise in question, which was for the purpose of inspecting the East Coast ports as far as the Orkneys, lasted five weeks. The deputy chairman's party consisted of one friend, who joined at Lowestoft and was on board nearly the whole time; another who joined at Aberdeen and remained two weeks; and two boys, who started from Gravesend and remained four weeks. The deputy chairman paid the whole of their expenses.
  SIR W. EVANS GORDON: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury whether it is intended to supply the cruiser "Vigilant" with the electric light, a motor-pinnace, and a centreboard sailing-boat.
  MR. MCKENNA: The Answer is in the negative. One of the "Vigilant's" rowing-boats was fitted a year ago with a centre-board, to which the crew of the boat in all probability owed their lives on the occasion of their being blown out to sea in a gale last April.

  Coast Protection.
  SIR W. EVANS GORDON: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury whether, consequent upon the abolition of coastguard stations by the Admiralty, a departmental committee to inquire into the subject of coast protection has been or is to be appointed; and whether he will give the names of the gentlemen constituting such committee.
  MR. MCKENNA: This Question is under consideration, but the matter is regarded as confidential. I regret that for this reason I am unable at present to give any further information.

  Burwell Estate, Cambridgeshire.
  MR. H. H. MARKS: I beg to ask the hon. Member for South Somerset, as representing the President of the Board of Agriculture, whether he can state the terms upon which the Burwell Estate, in Cambridgeshire, has been let to the hon. Member for Newmarket, and whether his rent was fixed with the object of enabling him to sub-let in small holdings at rents within the means of the agricultural labourers whom he has displaced.
  MR. CLAUDE HAY: I beg also to ask the hon. Member for South Somerset, as representing the President of the Board of Agriculture, into how many holdings has the Burwell Estate, in Cambridgeshire, been cut up, and what is the price per acre charged; and how this compares with rent charged by the Crown to the lion. Member for Newmarket.
  MR. BRIDGEMAN: May I further ask the hon. Member for South Somerset, as representing the President of the Board of Agriculture, what rent is obtained by the Commissioners of Woods and Forests for the Burwell Estate under the scheme of conversion into small holdings; and what restrictions, if any, were made as to the rent which the tenant may charge in subletting to small holders.
  SIR EDWARD STRACHEY: The farm at Burwell has been let to my hon. friend the Member for Newmarket on lease for twenty-one years at a rent of £700 a year in addition to land tax, drainage, and sewer rates and all other rates and taxes except landlords property tax and tithe. This is the full market price for land in the neighbourhood. In addition the Commissioners have agreed to spend not less than £1,500 in alterations and additions to the buildings and cottages, and on this sum my hon. friend pays interest at 4 per cent, per annum. No restrictions were made as to the rent charged to my
  1124
  hon. friend's sub-tenants. The responsibility of the Commissioners ended when the lease was signed and they are in no way concerned with the subsequent arrangements made by my hon. friend, but I am authorised by him to say that he has divided it into fifty-nine holdings, and that he has charged his tenants rent sufficient to cover the rent he is paying together with interest on all outlay and a sufficient margin for expenses of management.
  MR. WINFREY: Arising out of that Question I beg to ask the hon. Baronet whether it is not a fact that previous to this farm being divided into small holdings the Commissioners of Woods and Forests had for two years failed to find a tenant to take it, and had farmed it themselves without profit to the Crown. And whether it is not a fact that everyone of the displaced labourers has secured equally good terms of employment in the neighbourhood and a considerable number much better payment than they were receiving under the Crown.
  SIR EDWARD STRACHEY: Yes, Sir.
  MR. LONSDALE: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that that Question was asked by a Member of Parliament who acts as private secretary to the President of the Board of Agriculture?
  SIR EDWARD STRACHEY: I do not see that that has anything to do with it.
  MR. H. H. MARKS: Can the hon. Gentleman say if any one of the thirty-nine labourers dispossessed by the granting of this lease has been put into the newly created holdings?
  SIR EDWARD STRACHEY: I am informed that all the labourers working on the estate had an opportunity of taking a holding and eight or nine did so.

  Sir Antony MacDonnell.
  CAPTAIN CRAIG: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether his attention has been called to a speech recently delivered by Sir Antony MacDonnell foreshadowing Home Rule or devolution legislation for Ireland; and will he say

  1125
  whether it was made with the sanction and approval of the Chief Secretary and the Cabinet.
  THE CHIEF SECRETARY FOR IRELAND (Mr. BRYCE,): The Answer to the first part of the Question is in the affirmative, and to the latter part in the negative.

  Claremorris Union Clerkship.
  CAPTAIN CRAIG: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether his attention has been drawn to a meeting of Roman Catholic priests of the deanery of Claremorris, where a resolution was recently adopted demanding that no person should be appointed to the office of clerk to the Claremorris Union unless furnished with a character from his parish priest; and, if so, whether, on this or other such appointment being made, the Local Government Board will issue instructions that no clerical influence of this nature is to be allowed to weigh in the selection of candidates.
  MR. BRYCE: My attention had not been drawn to this matter, but I am informed by the Local Government Board that the resolution in question affirmed that the financial and moral condition of the union was essentially connected with the selection of a worthy clerk, and requested the district councillors to refuse their support to any candidate who should not produce a letter of character from his parish priest. The Local Government Board have no power to intervene in the manner suggested in the Question.
  CAPTAIN CRAIG: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the district council actually passed a resolution, and published it in the Press, to the effect that no candidate would be eligible for election without a certificate of character from the parish priest?
  MR. BRYCE: The Local Government Board have no power to interfere.
  CAPTAIN CRAIG: Will the right hon. Gentleman consider the desirability of obtaining power? Does not this absolutely exclude anybody but a Roman Catholic from getting the position?
  MR. BRYCE: I should have assumed not.

  British Flag at the Munster-Connaught Exhibition.
  CAPTAIN CRAIG: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that Lord Aberdeen performed the opening ceremony of the Munster-Connaught Exhibition, at which, by special resolution, it had been decided that the British flag should be excluded from the decoration of the exhibition premises, although many flags, including those of other nations, were freely displayed; whether His Excellency's attention was drawn to this resolution or to the absence of the British flag before he performed the opening ceremony; and, if so, whether his presence at the exhibition under these circumstances received the sanction of His Majesty's Ministers.
  MR. JOYCE: Before the right hon. Gentleman answers the Question, may I ask him what the British flag has to do with an Irish exhibition?
  MR. BRYCE: I do not suppose the hon. Member requires an Answer to a Question of so general a character. I have no information upon the subject of this Question. Matters relating to the personal action of the Lord-Lieutenant, especially on these ceremonial occasions, lie entirely outside my official sphere.
  MR. JOYCE: In Limerick we will fly any flag we please.
  CAPTAIN CRAIG: Are we to understand that the Lord-Lieutenant knew nothing whatever about this insult to the British flag, and, if the Government does know of the insult, have they connived at it, and are they satisfied that proper action was taken by the Lord-Lieutenant?
  MR. BRYCE: We knew nothing whatever about the matter.
  AN HON. MEMBER: Try and find out.
  CAPTAIN CRAIG: Are we to understand that this visit of the Lord-Lieutenant was in his official capacity, or a purely personal one, and is there any precedent in

  1127
  the remaining part of the British Empire for an official——
  *MR. SPEAKER: Order, order! The right hon. Gentleman has said that he has no knowledge of this.
  CAPTAIN CRAIG: If this is a personal matter, although I maintain it is an official matter——
  *MR. SPEAKER: Order, order! The right hon. Gentleman says he has no knowledge.

  Irish Language in National Schools.
  MR. BOLAND: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he has received the statement put forward by the Gaelic League as a tentative and temporary scheme for the teaching of Irish in the national schools, and can he say what steps, if any, he proposes to take in consequence of these proposals.
  MR. BRYCE: I have received the statement referred to, which appears to contain proposals of a very far reaching nature, and have invited the opinion of the Commissioners of National Education upon these proposals. It is for the Commissioners to prepare estimates for the expenditure of money upon this and other branches of instruction, and I understand that they will consider the matter at their next meeting.

  Athenry Cattle Outrages.
  MR. T. L. CORBETT: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether the police have received reports of horse and cattle maiming outrages in the neighbourhood of Athenry during the last three months; how many of such cases have been reported; and what steps have been taken to discover the perpetrators.
  MR. BRYCE: The Inspector-General of Constabulary has during the past three months received reports of two cases of the nature referred to from the district of Athenry. The police have made every effort to clear up these cases and to bring offenders to justice, but have not so far succeeded in securing sufficient evidence against any person.
  MR. O'MALLEY: Is it not the fact that these outrages are alleged to have occurred on the property of Lord Clanricarde? Has not the claim for compensation been abandoned, and is it not believed that the claimant was a party to the outrage?
  MR. BRYCE: I have no information.
  MR. BARRIE: Will the right hon. Gentleman inquire?
  MR. BRYCE: The police are inquiring.

  Loughrea District Council—Claims for Malicious Injury.
  MR. LONSDALE: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutentant of Ireland whether he can state the number of claims for compensation for malicious injury now pending against the Loughrea District Council, and the total amount claimed in respect of them.
  MR. BRYCE: The Local Government Board have ascertained from the clerk of the Loughrea Rural District Council that the number of claims for compensation for malicious injury now pending against the Council is two, the amounts claimed being £80 and £35 respectively. I understand that there were other claims, but these have recently been disposed of at quarter sessions.

  Irish School Building Grants.
  MR. LONSDALE: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether his attention has been called to the last Report of the Commissioners of National Education in Ireland with reference to the subject of building grants; whether he has been furnished with a return of unsuitable schoolhouses, and the amount required to place defective school buildings in a satisfactory position; and whether any arrangement has yet been arrived at with the Treasury so as to remove the existing deadlock in the matter of building grants.
  MR. BRYCE: The reply to the first part of the Question is in the affirmative. The Commissioners of National Education inform me that the return of unsuitable school-houses which they are having prepared is not yet complete. As soon as it has been completed, the

  1129
  Commissioners intend to make an estimate of the amount required to place defective school buildings in a satisfactory condition. The Commissioners have, at the request of the Treasury, prepared new plans of school-houses, and are about to submit these for consideration. The correspondence upon the subject of building grants generally is proceeding, and I have every reason to hope that the matter is now approaching completion.
  MR. SLOAN: May we expect any definite action this year?
  Mr. BRYCE: I can hardly say. The matter is taking more time than was anticipated.

  Strabane Labourers' Cottages Acts.
  MR. MCVEIGH: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether his attention has been called to the inquiry shortly to be held in the Strabane Union as to the administration of the Labourers Acts in Strabane No. 2 Rural District, and its scope, limited to any neglect made by the clerk in carrying out his duties under the Acts; whether he is aware that the Local Government Board has refused to extend the scope of the inquiry so as to include the delay on the part of the council in considering applications lodged with them by labourers for cottages, in some instances four years ago, which were not considered till. March last; and, if so, whether he will take steps to secure that the question of delay, and all matters bearing on it, shall be fully inquired into.
  MR. BRYCE: The inquiry referred to in the Question relates to the conduct of the clerk personally in regard to the discharge of the various duties falling on him as clerk of the union, clerk of the council, and executive sanitary officer, and will not be limited, as is assumed by the Question, to any neglect of duty in the carrying out of the Labourers Acts. The general question of the administration of these Acts by the rural district council will, of course, receive the attention of the Board in due time, in pursuance of the powers conferred on the Board by Section 9 of the Labourers Act of 1906, which comes into operation tomorrow.

  Irish Primary Education Deficiencies.
  MR. FLYNN: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether his attention has been called to meetings recently hold in Ireland connected with the subject of primary education, and at which resolutions were passed dealing with the deficiencies of the system, the under staffing of the schools, and their insanitary condition, and alleged grievances of teachers in regard to salaries, promotion, and other conditions of employment; whether he is aware that the Commissioners of National Education have made application for a sum of £10,000 for the improvement and upkeep of the school buildings; and what steps, if any, he has taken in placing the Commissioners' application before the Treasury authorities.
  MR. BRYCE: The Answer to the first part of the Question is in the affirmative. In the second part of the Question, the hon. Member probably refers to the statement made in the Commissioners' last annual Report, to the effect that in their opinion it was necessary that £100,000 a year (not £10,000 as stated in the Question) should be placed at their disposal for the next five years for the purpose of making building grants. The Irish Government have for a considerable time past been in communication with the Treasury and the National Board upon the subject, and every effort is being made to bring the matter to a speedy conclusion.
  MR. FLYNN: The right hon. Gentleman admits that the condition of primary education in Ireland is unsatisfactory. Will he use his influence with the Treasury to get a grant as a matter of extreme urgency?
  MR. BRYCEwas understood to say his influence was being used.
  MR. SLOAN: Why not allocate the development grant to this purpose?
  MR. BRYCE: That is subject to other charges.
  MR. MURPHY: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland when he intends to make any proposals as to primary

  1131
  education in Ireland, which he has stated to be unsatisfactory; if so, can he indicate the general principles of such proposals and the date at which they will be made; and whether he can now see his way to take any steps to deal with grievances which do not require any change in the law, such as the salaries, civil rights, and tenure of teachers, and the improvement and building of schools, and the provision of other requisites for the children.
  MR. BRYCE: I am afraid that I cannot profitably add much to the reply which I gave to the hon. Member's Question of Monday last. The whole question of education in Ireland is receiving the careful consideration of the Irish Government, who are duly sensible of the defects in it, and who desire to take all steps within their power to remove those defects; but I am not at present in a position to make any statement on the subject.

  Malicious Injury Claims in Galway.
  MR. CHARLES CRAIG: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland if he is aware that a number of claims for compensation for malicious injuries have been made in the county court for the East Riding of Galway for the Michaelmas Sessions 1906; will he state the number and nature of such claims and whether they include several claims for the mutilation of cattle and horses, and the destruction of walls; does the number exceed largely the number of claims at any recent county court sittings in the Riding; and has any person been made amenable to justice in respect of any, and, if so, how many, of the outrages which are the subject of such claims.
  MR. BRYCE: I am informed by the police authorities that twenty-four claims for compensation for malicious injuries, came before the recent quarter sessions courts held in the East Riding of Galway. Of these, seven were in respect of malicious injuries to cattle and horses, 'and four in respect of injuries to walls. Out of the twenty-four cases, in twelve only was compensation awarded. Six cases were withdrawn, four dismissed, and two adjourned. The number of claims is, I am informed, considerably in excess of that at any recent sessions in
  1132
  the Riding. Arrests were made in two cases. In one, the defendant is awaiting trial, and in the other, the accused was discharged for want of evidence.
  MR. FLYNN: Is there any Sergeant Sheridan operating in this district?
  [No Answer was returned.]

  Judge Anderson and Crime in Galway County.
  COLONEL MCCALMONT: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether his attention has been directed to the charge of Judge Anderson at recent quarter sessions in the County Galway relative to the increase of malicious injuries on that part of the county, as well as to remarks made by. Mr. Gardener, R.M., at petty sessions at Athenry, on Saturday last, as to the condition of that part of the county; and will he say what were the reasons known to the police which induced the district inspector Royal Irish Constabularly to withdraw the cases against three men charged with tiring with intent at a police constable; and whether the Government are taking steps to deal with these incidents?
  MR. LONSDALE: May I also ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether three men arrested on charges of complicity in the recent murderous attack on Constable O'Halloran at Rockmore, near Athenry, have been discharged from custody; and whether he will state the grounds on which the prosecution of these men has been abandoned?
  MR. BRYCE: The Answer to the first part of the Question is in the affirmative. I am informed by the police authorities that the prosecution of the three men referred to was not proceeded with because there was not sufficient evidence to justify their furthor detention in custody. If further evidence should be forthcoming, the case will be proceeded with. It is, I regret to say, the fact that the district of Athenry is not in a satisfactory condition. The police are doing their utmost to preserve the peace, and twenty-five extra men from the reserve force have been sent to assist them in that duty.

  Lisnagry Evicted Tenant.
  MR. JOYCE: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether anything has been done towards the re-instatement of Patrick, Kyan, evicted tenant of Lisnagry, county 'Limerick, either to place him back on his own land or, failing this, to give him another piece of land in Larne townland as a fair equivalent for the land from which he was evicted?
  MR. BRYCE: The Estates Commissioners inform me that Mr. Evan's application, which was received on 26th June last, will be inquired into as soon as possible, regard being had to other applications received at an earlier date.

  Government Appointments and Ex- Service Men.
  SIR SAMUEL SCOTT: I beg to ask the Prime Minister whether he is aware that only forty-four per centum of the established messengerships in Government offices have during the last three years been granted to ex service men; and whether, in view of the fact that ex-service men are eminently suited for these posts, he will give instructions that for the future ex-service men are to be appointed to these posts, provided suitable candidates are forthcoming.
  THE PRIME MINISTER AND FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY (Sir H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN,): I believe that the figures of the hon. Member are correct; but after giving consideration to the matter, which has: been brought to my attention on more than one occasion, I do not see my way to recommending that in future, ex-service men only are to be appointed to Government messengerships.
  MR. BYLESasked if the 56 per cent. of the persons appointed who were not accounted for in the Question had not served the country just as faithfully in the walks of peaceful industry.
  SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN: I know nothing of the quality of the 56 per cent.
  SIR SAMUEL SCOTT: Does the right hon. Gentleman approve of the appointment of ex-butlers and ex-footmen to these posts?
  SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN: I should like to know something about them before I expressed an opinion. I disapprove any cast iron rule on the subject.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
MR. A. J. BALFOURasked whether there was any change in the arrangements for business announced ten days ago.
SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN: No, Sir. The Trade Disputes Bill will follow the Bill at present before the House.

NEW BILL.
  EMPLOYMENT OF BARMAIDS BILL.
  "To restrict the employment of barmaids," presented by Mr. Gooch supported by Mr. Alden, Mr. Cameron Corbett, Mr. Crombie, Mr. Henderson, Mr. William Jones, Mr. Maddison, and Mr. T. W. Russell: to be read a second time upon Wednesday next, and to be printed. [Bill 345.]

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
Motion made, and Question put, "That the proceedings on the Committee stage of the Plural Voting Bill, if under consideration at Eleven o'clock this night, be not interrupted under the Standing Order (Sittings of the House.)" —(Sir H. Campbell-Bannerman.)
The House divided: —Ayes, 324; Noes, 95. (Division List No. 354.)

AYES.

Abraham, William (Cork,N.E.)

Ashton, Thomas Gair

Barlow,John Emmott (Som's't

Acland, Francis Dyke

Asquith,Rt.Hn.Herbert Henry

Barlow, Percy (Bedford)

Adkins, W. Ryland D.

Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth)

Beale, W. P.

Ainsworth, John Stirling

Baker,Joseph A. (Finsbury, E.

Beauchamp, E.

Alden, Percy

Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight

Beaumont, Hon. H. (Eastbo'rne)

Ambrose, Robert

Barker, John

Beaumont, Hn.W.C.B.(Hexh'm

Beck, A. Cecil

Ferguson, R. C. Munro

Levy, Maurice

Bell, Richard

Field, William

Lewis, John Herbert

Bellairs, Carlyon

Fiennes, Hon. Eustace

Lough, Thomas

Belloc, Hilaire Joseph Peter R

Flynn, James Christopher

Lundon, W.

Benn,W. (T'w'r H'ml'ts, S.Geo.

Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

Lupton, Arnold

Bertram, Julius

Freeman-Thomas, Freeman

Lynch, H. B.

Bethell, T. R. (Essex, Maldon)

Fuller, John Michael F.

Macdonald,J.M.(Falkirk B'ghs

Billson, Alfred

Fullerton, Hugh

Mackarness, Frederic C.

Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine

Gardoer, Col. Alan (Hereford,S.)

Macnarmara, Dr. Thomas J.

Black, Arthur W. (Bedfordsh.

Gibb, James (Harrow)

Macpherson, J. T.

Boland, John

Gill, A. H.

MacVeagh, Jeremiah (Down,S.

Boulton, A. C. F. (Ramsey)

Ginnell, L.

MacVeigh,Charles (Donegal, E.

Bowerman, C. W.

Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herbert J.

M'Callum, John M.

Brace, William

Glover, Thomas

M'Crae, George

Brigg, John

Goddard, Daniel Ford

M'Kenna, Reginald

Bright, J. A.

Gooch, George Peabody

M'Killop, W.

Brocklehurst, W. B.

Greenwood, G. (Peterborough)

M'Laren, H. D. (Stafford, W.)

Brooke, Stopford

Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill

M'Micking. Major G.

Brunner,J.F.L. (Lanes., Leigh)

Gulland, John W.

Manfield, Harry (Northants)

Bryce, Rt.Hn.James (Aberdeen

Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

Markham, Arthur Basil

Bryce, J. A. (Inverness Burghs)

Haldane, Rt. Hon. Richard B.

Massie, J.

Buchanan, Thomas Rbyurn

Hall, Frederick

Masterman, C. F. G.

Burke, E. Haviland-

Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Lewis

Meagher, Michael

Burns, Rt. Hon. John

Hardie.J.Keir (Merthyr Tydvil

Menzies, Walter

Burnyeat, W. J. D.

Hardy, George A. (Suffork)

Micklem, Nathaniel

Buxton, Rt. Hn. Sydney Charles

Harmsworth, Cecil B. (Wore'r

Molteno, Percy Alport

Byles, William Pollard

Hart-Davies, T.

Money, L. G. Chiozza

Cairns, Thomas

Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale)

Mooney, J. J.

Cameron, Robert

Harwood, George

Morgan, G. Hay (Cornwall)

Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.

Haslam, James (Derbyshire)

Morley, Rt. Hon. John

Carr-Gomm, H. W.

Haworth, Arthur A.

Morrell, Philip

Causton, Rt. Hn. Richard Knight

Hazel, Dr. A. E.

Morse, L. L.

Cawley, Frederick

Helme, Norval Watson

Morton, Alpheus Cleophas

Chance, Frederick William

Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

Murnaghan, George

Cheetham, John Frederick

Henry, Charles S.

Murphy, John

Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R.

Herbert,Colonel Ivor (Mon.,S.)

Murray, James

Churchill, Winston Spencer

Hobert, Sir Robert

Myer, Horatio

Cleland, J. W.

Hobhouse, Charles E. H.

Nannetti, Joseph P.

Clough, W.

Hodge, John

Nicholls, George

Clynes, J. R.

Hogan, Michael

Nolan, Joseph

Coates, Sir T. Glen. (Renfrew, W.

Holland, Sir William Henry

Norman, Henry

Cobbold, Felix Thornley

Hooper, A. G.

Norton, Capt. Cecil William

Cooper, G. J.

Howard, Hon. Geoffrey

Nussey, Thomas Willans

Corbett, C.H. (Sussex, E. Gr'st'd

Hudson, Walter

Nuttall, Harry

Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.

Hutton, Alfred Eddison

O'Brien, Kendal (Tip'rary Mid.

Cotton, Sir H. J. S.

Hyde, Clarendon

O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth

Jacoby, James Alfred

O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W.)

Cremer, William Randal

Jardine, Sir J.

O'Grady, J.

Crombie, John William

Jenkins, J.

O'Malley, William

Crooks. William

Jones,Sir D.Brynmor (Swansea

O'Shauglmessy, P. J.

Crosfield, A. H.

Jones, Leif (Appleby)

Palmer, Sir Charles Mark

Davies, Ellis William (Eifion)

Jones,William (Carnarvonshire

Parker, James (Halifax)

Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardigan

Jowett, F. W.

Partington, Oswald

Davies, Timothy (Fulham)

Joyce, Michael

Paul, Herbert

Davies, W. Howell (Bristol, S.)

Kearley, Hudson E.

Paulton, James Mellor

Delany, William

Kekewich, Sir George

Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek)

Dewar, Arthur (Edinburgh, S.)

Kelley, George D;.

Pearce, William (Limehouse)

Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh.

Kennedy, Vincent Paul

Phillipps,Col.Ivor (S'thampton

Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.

Kincaid-Smith, Captain

Philipps, J.Wynford (Pemb'ke

Donelan, Captain A.

King, Alfred John (Knutsford)

Piekersgill, Edward Hare

Duckworth, James

Kitson, Rt. Hon. Sir James

Pirie, Duncan V.

Duncan, C.(Barrow-in-Furness)

Laidlaw, Robert

Pollard, Dr.

Dunn, A. Kdward (Camborne)

Lamb, Edmund G. (Leominster

Price, C. E. (Edinb'gh. Central

Edwards, Enoch (Hanley)

Lamb, Ernest H. (Rochester)

Price, Robert John (Norfolk, E.

Edwards, Frank (Radnor)

Lambert, George

Rainy, A. Rolland

Elibank, Master of

Lamont, Norman

Raphael, Herbert H.

Ellis, Rt. Hon. John Edward

Langley, Batty

Rea, Russell (Gloucester)

Erskine, David C.

Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, W.)

Rea, Walter Russell (Scarboro'

Esmonde, Sir Thomas

Layland-Barratt, Francis

Redmond,John E. (Waterford)

Everett, R. Lacey

Leese.Sir Joseph F. (Accringt'n

Redmond, William (Clare)

Faber, G. H. (Goston)

Lehmann, R. C.

Rees, J. D.

Fenwick, Charles

Lever, A. Levy (Essex,Harwich

Rendall, Athelstan

Ferena, T. R.

Lever, W.H. (Cheshire, Wirral

Richards,Thomas (W.Monm'th.

1136

1137

Richards, T. F.(Wolverh'mpt'n

Spicer, Sir Albert

Wardle, Gtorge J.

Richardson, A.

Stanger, H. Y.

Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.

Ridsdale, E. A.

Stanley,Hn.A.Lyulph (Chesh.)

Wason, Eugene (Clachmannan

Roberts, Charles H, (Lincoln)

Steadman, W. C.

Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney

Roberts, G. H. (Norwich)

Stewart, Hiilley (Greenock)

Waterlow, D. S.

Robertson, Rt.Hn. E. (Dandee

Strachey, Sir Edward

Wedgwood, Josiah C.

Robertson, SirG.Scott(B'rdf'rd

Straus, B. S. (Mile End)

Weir, James Galloway

Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside)

Stuart, James (Sunderland)

White, George (Norfolk)

Robinson, S.

Sullivan, Donal

White, J. D. (Dumbartonshire)

Robson, Sir William Snowdon

Summerbell, T.

White, Luke (York, E. R.)

Roe, Sir Thomas

Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth)

White, Patrick (Meath, North

Rogers, F. E. Newman

Taylor, John W. (Durham)

Whitehead, Rowland

Rose, Charles Day

Tennant, H. J. (Berwickshire)

Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

Rowlands, J.

Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.

Whittaker, Sir Thomas Palmer

Runciman, Walter

Thomas, David Alferd(Merthyr

Wilkie, Alexander

Rutherford, V. H. (Brentford)

Thomson, J.W.H.(Somerset, E)

Williams, J. (Glamorgan)

Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland

Tliornc, William

Williams,Llewelyn (Carnvrth'n

Schwaun, C. Duncan (Hyde)

Torrance, Sir A. M.

Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)

Scott,A.H.(Ashton under Lyne

Toulmin, George

Wilson, Hon.C.H.W. (Hull W.)

Sears, J. E.

Trevelyan, Charles Philips

Wilson Henry J. (York, W. R.

Seely, Major B.

Ure, Alexander

Wilson, J. W. (Worcestersh. N.

Shackleton, David James

Verney, F. W.

Wilson, P. W. (St. Pancras, S.)

Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)

Wadsworth, J.

Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)

Shaw.Rt. Hon.T.(Hawick B.)

Walker, H. De R. (Leicester)

Winfrey, R.

Shipman, Dr. John G.

Wallace, Robert

Wood, T. M'Kinnon

Sinclair, Rt. Hon. John

Walters, John Tudor

Woodhouse, Sir J.T. (H'd'rsf'd)

Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie

Walton, Sir John L. (Leeds, S.)

Young, Samuel

Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.

Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

Soames, Arthur Wdlesley

Ward, John (Stoke upon Trent

TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr. Whiteley and Mr. J.A. Pease.

Soares, Ernest J.

Ward, W.Dudley (S'thampton)

NOES.

Anstruther-Gray, Major

Fletcher, J. S.

Nicholson, Wm. G. (Petersfield

Arkwright, John Stanhope.

Forster, Henry William

Parker,Sir Gilbert (Gravesend)

Ashley, W. W.

Gardner, Ernest (Berks, East)

Parkes, Ebenezer

Balcarres, Lord

Gibbs, G. A. (Bristol, West)

Pease,Herbert Pike (Darlingt'n

Balfour.Rt.Hn.A.J. (City Lond

Gordon.SirW.Evans-(T'rHam.

Percy, Earl

Banbury, Sir Frederick George

Hamilton, George R.

Randles, Sir John Scurrah

Banner, John S. Harmood-

Hamilton, Marquess of

Ratcliffe, Major R. F.

Barrie, H. T. (Londonderry, N.

Hardy.Laurence (Kent, Ashf'd

Remnant, James Farquharson

Beach,Hn. Michael HughHicks

Marr son-Boardley, Col. H. B

Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall

Beckett, Hon. Gervase

Hay, Hon. Claude George

Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert

Bignold, Sir Arthur

Heaton, John Henniker

Rothschild, Hon. Lionel Walter

Bowles, G. Stewart

Helmsley, Viscount

Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool)

Bull, Sir William James

Hill, Sir Clement (Shrewsbury)

Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert

Butcher, Samuel Henry

Hills W

Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

Carlile, E. Hildred

Hunt, Rowland

Sloan, Thomas Henry

Castlereagh, Viscount

Hunt, Rowland

Starkey, John R.

Cavendish, Rt.Hn. Victor C. W.

Kennaway, Rt.Hon.Sir John H.

Stavley-Hill, Henry (Staff'sh.

Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

Keswick, William

Stone, Sir Benjamin

Cecil, Lord John P. Joicey-

Kimber, Sir Henry

Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

Cecil, Lord R. (Marylebone, E.

Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm.

Thomson, W. Mitchell-(Lanark

Chamberlain,Rt.Hn.J. A. (Wor.

Lane-Fox, G. R.

Turnour, Viscount

Cochrane. Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

Law, AndiewBonar (Dulwich)

Vincent, Col. Sir C. E. Howard

Colling.s, Rt. Hn.J.(Birmingh'm

Liddell, Henry

Walker, Col. W. H. (Lancashire

Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)

Long, Col.Charles W.(Evesh'm

Watt, H. Anderson

Courthope, G. Loyd

Long, Rt.Hn.Walter (Dublin,S.

Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E.R.

Craig, Charles Curtis (Antrim,S.

Lonsdale, John Brownlee

Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm

Craig, Captain James (Down,E.

Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred

Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

Craik, Sir Henry

Maclver, David (Liverpool)

Younger, George

Dalrymple, Viscount

M'Calmont, Colonel James

Doughty, Sir George

Magnus, Sir Philip

TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Sir Alexander Acland-Hood and Viscount Valentia.

Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

Marks, H. H. (Kent)

Dunean, Robert (Lanark, G'v'n

Meysey-Thompson, E. C.

Fell, Arthur

Mildmay, Francis Bingham

Finch, Rt. Hon. George H.

Morpeth, Viscourt

PLURAL VOTING BILL.
Considered in Committee.
(In the Committee.)
[Mr. EMMOTT (Oldham) in the Chair.]
Clause 5:—
*MR. COURTHOPE*MR. COURTHOPE(Sussex, Eye) moved an Amendment to secure that the qualification of a person who has exercised his option in favour of a Scottish constituency should not take effect till 1st January. He pointed out that the clause provided that the Secretary for Scotland might issue instructions for any purpose for which an Order in Council might be made under the Act and might also issue any instructions which were rendered necessary by the fact that the currency of the Parliamentary register in Scotland did not coincide with the calendar year, including instructions for prescribing some special manner in which the name of a person was to be marked on the register "whose notice of selection does" not take effect till the 1st day of January succeeding the day on which the register comes into force or whose notice of selection "ceases to operate" on the 31st day of December. His Amendment, he explained, was to leave out the words "whose notice of selection does," in order to insert the words "so that his qualification shall;" the Secretary for Scotland would under the clause have two alternatives before him. He could either ante date by two months the date on which the notice of selection takes effect, or he could post date by two months the date on which the new register came into force. Speaking as an English Member —he could hardly hope that Scottish Members would agree with him—he could not see that it was right, nor believed that it was the intention of His Majesty's Government that Scotland should get the advantage of two months in regard to this question. That was his reason for moving the Amendment. If the Secretary for Scotland did not accept the Amendment he hoped he would explain what course he intended to take. He should like also to point out to the Lord-Advocate that the Government, by accepting this Amendment, would obviate the unpleasant contingencies to which he so humorously alluded the night before. There would be no question of a man
1140
crossing the Border one way and losing two months, or the other way and gaining two months, and his qualification would take effect on the 1st January in all portions of the United Kingdom, as well as his notice of selection, as was laid down by Clause 1, sub-section (1) of this Bill. His Amendment would ensure absolute equality and fairness to all classes of voters in all parts of the country. No other course could be adopted except to ante date or post date the time when the provision came into effect. That would be unfair in one case or the other to those electors who resided north or south of the Tweed.
Amendment proposed—
"In page 3, lines 17 and 18, to leave out the words 'whose notice of selection does, in order to insert the words 'so that his qualification shall.'"—(Mr. Courthope.)
Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question."
THE LORD-ADVOCATE (Mr. THOMAS SHAW,)said the words suggested by the Amendment would have very little effect or importance, and would make no difference whatever. The words that the Government had chosen would completely cover the case of the current year, which in Scotland was divided into two portions of ten months and two months. The case had been covered by the notice of selection not taking effect till January.
MR. A. J. BALFOURsaid the Committee as a whole was not in a very good position to judge of this matter, and it was only Scottish Members who would be greatly interested in it. He thought they would be much better off if the right hon. and learned Gentleman would tell them what his proposal was as to the day of selection or registration, or what was the proposed position of the Scottish plural voter, or the voter who had a qualification in Scotland as well as in England after the Bill became law. They know precisely what the position of the plural voter would be in England, when the notice would be given, and when the register would come into force. They had no such accurate knowledge in regard to Scotland, but the Government, no doubt.

1141
knew what were the regulations which the Secretary for Scotland was going to introduce. The Government must also know how they intended to deal with the technical difficulty which would arise owing to the face that the register would not come into operation on the same day in the two countries, as it would come into operation in England on the 1st January, and in Scotland on 1st November.
MR. THOMAS SHAWdid not think that the right hon. Gentleman had substantially challenged, wholly or in part, what he had said. The explanation which he had given was a reasonable one, namely, that in Clause 1 of the Bill, now passed, the currency of the vote on the register was for a calendar year. They must take the facts as they found them. These were that the Scottish registers ran from November to November, and, accordingly, when a selection was made that selection would come into operation during the current year, that is, on 1st. January Where there was an English qualification for the year that must be fixed by the currency of the register from January to January. If the selection was made in Scotland it must be made from January to November, and if in England, from January to January. If, however, the Scottish register were properly marked, the selection of the registered voters would be made to qualify for the extra two months, so that he would suffer no disfranchisement as compared with his English selection.
MR. A. J. BALFOURsaid he wished to understand the right hon. Gentleman. Let them take the case of Mr. A., who was entitled to a vote in Scotland and in England also. When 6th September came he made his selection in regard to his Scottish qualification. Was he qualified to vote in England from November till the following January if he wished to do so? Would he have to wait till the 1st January before he could get a vote in England?
*MR. THOMAS SHAWsaid the question made the point very clear. He had no vote in England until the disqualification imposed by his selection of a vote in Scotland had disappeared from the current register. If in September
1142
he had exercised his option in favour of Scotland it remained for the current year and was continued for the balance of the year, viz., two months up to the 1st January.
MR. A. J. BALFOURinquired where, supposing an election took place in November, an elector who had made a selection would vote.
*MR. THOMAS SHAWsaid he could also answer that. Supposing an election came in November, if a voter had exercised an option to vote in Scotland, he would not in the interval be able to vote in England. He would still have to vote in Scotland. They could not have the Scottish option deprived of its effect until the time when the English rights accrued, viz., 1st January.
MR MITCHELL-THOMSONsaid that while they were very much obliged to the right hon. Gentleman for the explanations which he had made, he had listened to his remarks with amazement, because now for the first time they had some indication of what the Government proposed to do. They were proposing to give to the Secretary for Scotland power to make an order which, so far as the plural voter in Scotland was concerned, would change the currency of the register. The Secretary for Scotland was, it appeared, to be empowered to say to the plural voter, "For you the currency of the register shall no longer be the 1st of November till the 1st November, but the 1st January till the 1st January." [Cries of "No."] Surely that was the practical effect of the right hon. Gentleman's proposal, but he and other Scottish Members were opposed to any change of the register in Scotland. He should, therefore, be inclined to vote against the Amendment of his hon. friend because it proposed such a change. The Government were not only going to give the Secretary for Scotland power to modify one Act of Parliament, but two. The First Commissioner of Works had never given them any hint of this at all, although he had said there would be some difficulty in dealing with Scotland. This was the first intimation they had had that the Secretary for Scotland was to be

1143
entrusted with these powers, which were not to be executed by any Order in Council.
SIR. F. BANBURYsaid he understood the position was that there would be no change for the ordinary Scottish voters. Supposing a man had two or three qualifications, there would be no change and the register would go from the 1st November to 1st November as it did now. If a man had a qualification in England and Scotland the register would be changed, and if he exercised his selection in Scotland the Secretary for Scotland would come in and say there should be another register. In Scotland there would be two registers, one prepared by the body which performed the duties of the overseers and another prepared by the Secretary for Scotland, This was the first time in the history of the country that a man's qualifications on the register would be settled not by the overseers but by an official. It would be very confusing, because the voter would have to search two registers. Where would the second register be kept? Of all the absurdities which had been introduced into the Bill this was the greatest. Some Scottish Members opposite yesterday had the courage to defend their country, and he hoped they would go a little further to-day and save Scotland from being placed in this extremely anomalous position.
*MR. THOMAS SHAWsaid this Order was simply intended to fill up the gap which would otherwise be a disfranchising gap for a few months.
VISCOUNT TURNOURthought there was still time for the Government to put something into the Bill in regard to what they proposed to do. The Lord-Advocate had said that this was not a franchise Bill, and he had also stated that it was impossible to make any alteration in the Registration Laws of Scotland under this measure. In his opinion this was very largely a franchise Bill, or at any rate it was a disfranchising Bill, because it affected the votes of a great many people. The matter was sufficiently important for some definite step to be taken by the Government to get over the difficulty. He appealed to the Lord-Advocate to deal with the
1144
matter before they proceeded any further with the discussion of the clause. [MINISTERIAL laughter.] Hon Members opposite laughed, but their laughter was very largely the laughter of ignorance and all they were able to do was to vote and laugh. He trusted that the Lord-Advocate would consider the suggestion he had made and take some steps to get over this undoubted and real difficulty.
MR. LAMBTONasked what would happen in case a man with two qualifications, one for England and another for Scotland, changed his mind and desired to vote in Scotland?
*MR. THOMAS SHAWsaid that the claim would be made in September and he would go on the register in November, but a mark would be placed against the name to show that he was disqualified during the period he was an English voter.
MR. MITCHELL-THOMPSONsaid this was a most complicated arrangement. Personally he had never denied that there was a great difficulty to be faced in this matter, and he thought that in some respects the Government proposal got over the difficulty. He wished to know, however, whether the Lord-Advocate proposed to get over the difficulty by allowing the Secretary for Scotland on his own initiative to modify two Acts of Parliament. That was a method of procedure to which be would never consent.
*MR. THOMAS SHAWsaid this clause was drawn to enable orders to be written out in such a way that there would be no disfranchisement on the one hand and that, on the other hand, all the Scottish voters would be in the position that they would be deprived of the plural voting privilege which at present existed. There was no desire or intention to go beyond the provisions of the existing Act of Parliament.
MR. WILLIAM RUTHERFORDrose to speak.
MR. THOMAS SHAWrose in his place and claimed to move, "That the Question be now put."
Question put, "That the Question be now put."
The Committee divided:—Ayes, 325; Noes, 85. (Division List, No. 355.)

AYES.

Acland, Francis Dyke

Davies, Timothy (Fulham)

Jacoby, James Alfred

Adkins, W. Ryland D.

Davies, W. Howell (Bristol. S.)

Jardine, Sir J.

Ainsworth, John Stirling

Delany, William

Jenkins, J.

Alden, Percy

Dewar, Arthur (Edinburgh, S.

Jones,Sir D. Brynmor(Swansea)

Ambrose, Robert

Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh.

Jones, Leif (Appleby)

Ashton, Thomas Gair

Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.

Jones, Wm. (Carnarvonshire)

Asquith, Rt. Hn. Herbert Henry

Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

Jowett, F. W.

Atherley-Jones, L.

Donelan, Captain A.

Kearley, Hudson E.

Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth)

Duckworth, James

Kekewich, Sir George

Baker, Joseph A. (Finsbury, E.

Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness

Kelley, Georgo D.

Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight

Duncan, J. H. (York, Otley)

Kennedy, Vincent Paul

Barker, John

Dunn, A. Edward (Camborne)

Kincaid-Smith, Captain

Barlow, John Emmott (S'm'rs't

Dunne,Major E. Martin (Wals'l)

King, Alfred J. (Knutsford)

Barlow, Percy (Bedford)

Edwards, Clement (Denbigh)

Kitson, Rt. Hon. Sir James

Beaks, W. P.

Edwards, Enoch (Hanley)

Laidlaw, Robert

Beaumont,Hn. W.C.B. (H'x'm

Edwards, Frank (Radnor)

Lamb, Edmund G. (Lcominster

Beck, A. Cecil

Elibank, Master of

Lamb, Ernest H. (Rochester)

Bell, Richard

Ellis, Rt. Hon. John Edward

Lambert, George

Bellairs, Carl von

Erskine, David C.

Lamont, Norman

Bonn, W.(T'w'rHaml'ts,S.Geo.

Esmonde, Sir Thomas

Langley, Batty

Bertram, Julius

Everett, R. Lacey

Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, W.)

Billson, Alfred

Faber, G. H. (Boston)

Layland-Barratt, Francis

Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine

Fenwick, Charles

Leese, Sir J. F. (Accrington)

Black, Arthur W. (Bedfordsh.

Ferens, T. R.

Lehmann, R. C.

Boland, John

Ferguson, R. C. Munro

Lever, A. Levy (Essex, Harwich

Boulton, A. C. F. (Ramsey)

Field, William

Lever, W. H. (Cheshire, Wirral)

Bowerman, C. W.

Fiennes, Hon. Eustace

Levy, Maurice

Brace, William

Flynn, James Christopher

Lewis, John Herbert

Brigg, John

Freeman-Thomas, Freeman

Lough, Thomas

Bright, J. A.

Fuller, John Michael F.

Lundon, W.

Brocklehurst, W. B.

Fullerton, Hugh

Lupton, Arnold

Brooke, Stopford

Gardner, Col. Alan (Hereford, S.

Lynch, H. B.

Brunner, J. RL.(Lanes., Leigh)

Gibb, James (Harrow)

Macdonald, J. M.(Falkirk B'hs.

Brunner,Rt. Hn. Sir J.T. (Ches.

Gill, A. H.

Mackarness, Frederic C

Bryce, J. A. (Inverness Burghs

Ginnell, L.

Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.

Buchanan, Thomas By burn

Gladstone,Rt.Hn.Herbert John

Macpherson, J. T.

Burke, E. Haviland-

Glover, Thomas

MacVcagh, Jeremiah (Down, S.

Burns, Rt. Hon. John

Goddard, Daniel Ford

MacVeigh, Charles (Donegal, E.

Burnyeat, W. J. D.

Gooch, George Peabody

M'Callum, John M.

Buxton, Rt. Hn. Sydney Charles

Greenwood, G. (Peterborough)

M'Crae, George

Byles, William Pollard

Gulland, John W.

M'Kenna, Reginald

Cairns, Thomas

Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

M'Killop, W.

Cameron, Robert

Hall, Frederick

M'Laren, H. D. (Stafford, W.)

Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.

Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Lewis

M'Micking, Major G.

Carr-Gomm. H. W.

Hardie,J. Keir(Merthyr Tydvil

Manfield, Harry (Northants)

Causton, Rt. Hn. Richard Knight

Hardy, George A. (Suffolk)

Mason, A. E. W. (Coventry)

Cawley, Frederick

Harms worth, Cecil B. (Wore'r

Massie, J.

Chance, Frederick William

Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale)

Masterman, C. F. G.

Cheetham. John Frederick

Harwood, George

Mengher, Michael

Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R.

Haslam, James (Derbyshire)

Menzies. Walter

Churchill, Winston Spencer

Haworth, Arthur A.

Micklem, Nathaniel

Cleland, J. W.

Hazel, Dr. A. E.

Molteno, Percy Alport

Clough, W.

Helme, Norval Watson

Money, L. G. Chiozza

Clynes, J. R.

Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

Montagu, E. S.

Coats, Sir T. Glen (Renfrew, W.

Henry, Charles S.

Mooney, J. J.

Cobbold, Felix Thornley

Herbert, Col. Ivor (Mon., S.)

Morgan, G. Hay (Cornwall)

Cooper, G. J.

Hobart, Sir Robert

Motley, Rt. Hon. John

Corbett, C. H.(Sussex, E. Gr'st'd

Hobhouse, Charles E. H.

Morrell, Philip

Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.

Hodge, John

Morse, L. L.

Cotton, Sir H. J. S.

Hogan, Michael

Morton, Alpheus Cleophas

Cowan, W. H.

Holland, Sir William Henry.

Murnaghan, George

Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth)

Hooper, A.

Murphy, John

Cremer, William Randal

Horridge, Thomas Gardner

Murray, James

Crombie, John William

Hudson, Walter

Myer, Horatio

Crooks, William

Hutton, Alfred Eddison

Nannetti. Joseph P.

Davies, Ellis William (Eifion)

Idris, T. H. W.

Nicholls, George

Davies, M. Vaughau-(Cardigan)

Jackson, R. S.

Nolan, Joseph

Norman, Henry

Robson, Sir William Snowdon

Wadsworth, J.

Norton, Capt. Cecil William

Roe, Sir Thomas

Walker, H. De R.(Leicester)

Nussey, Thomas Willans

Rogers, F. E. Newman

Wallace, Robert

Nuttall, Harry

Rowlands, J.

Walsh, Stephen

O'Brien, K. (Tippsrary Mid.)

Runciman, Walter

Walters, John Tudor

O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

Rutherford, V. H. (Brentford)

Walton, Sir John L. (Leeds, S.)

O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W.

Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)

Walton. Joseph (Barnsley)

O'Doherty, Philip

Schwann, C. Duncan (Hyde)

Ward, John (Stoke upon Trent)

O'Grady, J.

Schwann, Sir C E (Manchester)

Wardle, George J.

O'Kelly, Jas. (Roscommon, N.)

Scott, A.H.(Ashton under Lyne

Warnel, Thos. Courtenay T.

O'Malley, William

Sears, J. E.

Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan

O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

Secly, Major J. B.

Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney)

Palmer, Sir Charles Mark

Shackleton, David James

Waterlow, D. S.

Parker, James (Halifax)

Shaw, Chas. Edw. (Stafford)

Watt, H. Anderson

Partington, Oswald

Shaw, Rt. Hn. T. (Hawick, B.)

Wedgwood Josiah C.

Paul, Herbert

Shipman, Dr. John G.

Weir, James Galloway

Paulton, James Mellor

Sinclair, Rt. Hon. Johr

White, George (Norfolk)

Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek)

Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie

White, J. D. (Dumbartonshire)

Pearce, William (Limehouse)

Smyth, Thos. F. (Leitrim, S.)

White, Luke (York, E.R.)

Philipps, Col. Ivor (S'thampt'n

Soames, Arthur Wellesley

White, Patrick (Meath, North)

Philipps, J. Wynford(Pembroke

Soares, Ernest J.

Whit head, Rowland

Philipps, Owen C. (Pembroke)

Spicer, Sir Albert

Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

Pickersgill, Edward Hare

Stanger, H. Y.

Whittaker, J.R. Thomas Palmer

Pirie, Duncan V.

Stanley, Hn. A. Lyulph (Chesh.

Wiles, Thomas

Pollard, Dr.

Steadman, W. C.

Wilkie, Alexander

Price, C. E. (Edin'b'gh, Central

Stewart, Halley (Greenock)

Williams, J. (Glamorgan)

Price, Robert J. (Norfolk, E.)

Strachey, Sir Edward

Williams, L. (Carmarthen)

Rainy, A. Rolland

Straus, is. S. (Mile End)

Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)

Raphael, Herbert H.

Stuart, James (Sunderland)

Wilson, Hn. C. H. W. (Hull, W.

Rea, Russell (Gloucester)

Sullivan, Donal

Wilson, Henry J. (York, W.R.)

Redmond, John E. (Waterford)

Summerbell, T.

Wilson, J. W. (Worcestershire, N

Redmond, William (Clare)

Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth)

Wilson, P. W. (St. Pancras, S.)

Rees, J. D.

Taylor, John W. (Durham)

Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)

Rendall, Athelstan

Tennant,H. J. (Berwickshire)

Winfrey. R.

Richards, Thos. (W. Monm'th)

Thomas, Sir A.(Glamorgan, E.)

Wood, T. M'Kinnon

Richards, F. T. (Wolverh'mptn

Thomas, David A. (Merthyr)

Woodhouse, SirJ. T.(Hudd'rsfd

Richardson, A.

Thorne, William

Young, Samuel

Ridsdale, E. A.

Tomkinson, James

Yoxall, James Henry

Roberts, Chas. H. (Lincoln)

Torrance, Sir A. M.

Roberts, G. H. (Norwich)

Toulmin, George

TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr. Whiteley and Mr. J. A. Pease.

Robertson, Rt. Hn. E. (Dundee

Trevelyan, Charles Philips

Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside)

Ure, Alexander

Robinson, S.

Verney, F. W.

NOES.

Anstruther-Gray, Major

Faber, George Denison (York)

Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred

Arkwright, John Stanhope

Fell, Arthur

M'Calmont. Colonel James

Ashley, W. W.

Finch, Rt. Hon. George H.

Magnus, Sir Philip

Balcarres. Lord

Fletcher, J. S.

Marks, H. H. (Kent)

Balfour, Rt. Hn. A.J.(City Lond.

Forster, Henry William

Meysey-Thompson, E. C.

Banbury, Sir Frederick George

Gardner, Ernest (Berks, East)

Mildmay, Francis Hingham

Banner. John S- Harmood-

Gibbs, G. A. (Bristol, West)

Morpeth, Viscount

Barrie, H. T. (Londonderry, N.

Gordon, Sir W. Evans-(T'r Ham.

Nicholson. Win. G. (Petersfield

Beach, Hn. Michael Hugh Hicks

Haddock, George R.

Parker, Sir Gilbert (Gravesend)

Beckett, Hon. Gervase

Hamilton, Marquess of

Pease, Herb. Pike (Darlington)

Bignold, Sir Arthur

Hardy, L. (Kent, Ashford)

Percy, Earl

Bowles, G. Stewart

Harrison-Broadley, Col. H. B.

Powell. Sir Francis Sharp

Bull, Sir William James

Hay, Hon. Claude George

Randies, Sir John Scurrah

Carlile, E. Hildred

Heaton, John Henniker

Ratcliff, Major R F.

Castlereagh, Viscount

Helmsley, Viscount

Rawlinson, John Fredk. Peel

Cavendish, Rt. Hon. Victor C.W.

Hill, Sir C. (Shrewsbury)

Remnant, James Farquharson

Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

Hunt, Rowland

Roberts, S. (Sheffield Ecclesall

Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J.A(Wore.

Kennaway, Rt. Hon. Sir J. H.

Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert

Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

Keswick, William

Rutherford. W. W. (Liverpool)

Cellngs, Rt. Hn.J (Birmingh'm

Kimber, Sir Henry

Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert

Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)

Lambton, Hn. Frederick Wm.

Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

Craig, Chas. Curtis (Antrim, S.)

Lane-Fox, G. R.

Sloan, Thomas Henry

Craig, Captain J. (Down, E.)

Law, Andrew Bonar (Dulwich)

Starkey, John R

Dalrymple, Viscount Doughty, Sir George

Liddell, Henry Long, Col. Chas. W. (Evesham)

Staveley-Hill, Henry (Staff'sh.

Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

Lonsdale, John Brownlee

Stone, Sir Benjamin

1148

1149

Thomson, W. Mitchell-(Lanark)

Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E. R.

TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Sir Alexander Acland-Hood and Viscount Valentia.

Turnour, Viscount

Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm

Vincent, Col. Sir C. E. Howard

Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

Walker, Col. W. H. (Lancashire

Younger, George

Question put accordingly, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the clause."
The House divided:—Ayes, 337; Noes, 89. (Division List No.356.)

AYES.

Acland, Francis Dyke

Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.

Haslam, James (Derbyshire

Adkins, W. Ryland D.

Cotton. Sir H. J. S.

Haworth, Arthur A.

Ainsworth, John Stirling

Cowan, W. H.

Hazel, Dr. A. E.

Alden, Percy

Craig, Herb. J. (Tynemouth)

Helms, Norval Watson

Allen, Charles P. (Stroud)

Cremer, William Randal

Henderson, Arthur (Durham

Ambrose, Robert

Crumble. John William

Henry, Charles S.

Ashton, Thomas Gair

Crooks, William

Herbert. Colonel Ivor(Mon.S.

Asquith, Rt. Hn. Herb. Henry.

Dalmeny, Lord

Hobart, Sir Robert

Atherley-Jones, L.

Davies, Ellis William (Eifion)

Hobhouse, Charles E. H.

Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth)

Davies, M. Vaughan- (Cardigan)

Hodge, John

Baker. J. A. (Finsbury, E.)

Davies, Timothy (Fulham)

Hogan, Michael

Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight)

Davies, W. Howell (Bristol, S.)

Holland, Sir William Henry

Barker, John

Delany, William

Hooper, A. G.

Barker, John E. (Somerset)

Dewar Arthur(Edinburgh, S.)

Horniman, Emslie John

Barlow, Percy (Bedford)

Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh.)

Horridge, Thomas (Gardner

Beale, W. P.

Dickinson, W. H.(St. Pancras, W.

Howard, Hon. Geoffrey

Beauchamp, E.

Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.

Hudson. Walter

Beaumont, Hn W.C. B. (Hexham

Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

Hutton, Alfred Eddison

Beck, A. Cecil

Donelan, Captain A.

Idris, T. H. W.

Bell, Richard

Duckworth, James

Jackson, R. S.

Bellairs, Carlyon

Duncan, C.(Barrow-in-Furness)

Jacoby, James Alfred

Benn, W.(T'w'r Hamlets, S. Geo

Duncan, J. H. (York, Otley)

Jardine, Sir J.

Bertram, Julius

Dunn, A. Edward (Camborne)

Jenkins, J.

Billson, Alfred

Dunne, Major E. Martin(Walsall

Jones, Sir D. Brynmor(Swansea

Black, A. W. (Bedfordshire)

Edwards, Clement (Denbigh)

Jones, Leif (Appleby)

Boland, John

Edwards, Enoch (Hanley)

Jones, William(Carnarvonshire

Boulton, A. C. F. (Ramsey)

Edwards, Frank (Radnor)

Jowett, F. W.

Bowerman, C. W.

Elibank, Master of

Joyce, Michael

Brace, William

Ellis, Rt. Hon. John Edward

Kearley, Hudson E.

Brigg, John

Erskine, David C.

Kekewich, Sir George

Bright, J. A.

Esmonde Sir Thomas

Kelley, George D.

Brocklehurst, W. B.

Everett, R. Lacey

Kennedy, Vincent Paul

Brooke, Stopford

Faber, G. H. (Boston)

Kincaid-Smith, Captain

Brunner, J. F. L. (Lanes., Leigh

Fenwick, Charles

King, Alfred John (Knutsfor

Brunner, Rt. Hn. SirJT(Cheshire

Ferguson. R. C. Munro

Kitson, Rt. Hon. Sir James

Bryce J. A. (Inverness Burghs)

Field, William

Laidlaw, Robert

Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn

Fiennes, Hon. Eustace

Lamb, Edmund G.(Leominster

Burke, E. Haviland-

Flynn, James Christopher

Lamb, Ernest H. (Rochester

Burns, Rt. Hon. John

Freeman-Thomas, Freeman

Lambert, George

Burnyeat, W. J. D.

Fuller, John Michael F.

Lamont, Norman

Byles, William Pollard

Fullerton, Hugh

Langley, Batty

Cairns, Thomas

Gardner, Col. Alan(Hereford,S.)

Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, W.)

Cameron, Robert

Gibb, James (Harrow)

Layland-Barratt, Francis

Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.

Gill, A. H.

Leese, Sir J. F. (Accrington)

Carr-Gomm, H. W.

Ginnell, L.

Lehmann, R. C.

Canston, Rt. Hn. Richard K.

Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herb. John.

Lever, A. Levy(Essex, Harwich)

Cawley, Frederick

Glover, Thomas

Lever, W. H. (Cheshire, Wirral)

Chance, Frederick William

Goddard. Daniel Ford

Levy, Maurice

Cheetham, John Frederick

Gooch, George Peabody

Lewis, John Herbert

Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R.

Greenwood. G. (Peterborough)

Lough, Thomas

Churchill, Winston Spencer

Gulland, John W.

Lundon, W.

Clarke, C. Goddard

Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

Lupton, Arnold

Cleland, J. W.

Hall, Frederick

Lynch, H. B.

Clough, W.

Harcomt, Right Hon. Lewis

Macdonald, J. M(Falkirk B'ghs)

Clynes, J. R.;

Hardie, J. Keir(Merthyr Tydvil)

Mackarness, Frederic C.

Coats, Sir T. Glen (Renfrew. W.)

Hardy, George A. (Suffolk)

Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.

Cobbold, Felix Thornley

Harmsworth, Cecil B.(Wore'r)

Macpherson, J. T.

Cooper, G. J.

Hart-Davies, T.

MacVeagh, Jeremiah (Down, S.)

Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow)

Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale)

MacVeigh, Chas. (Donegal, E

Corbett, C.H.(Sussex, E. Grinst'd

Harwood, George

McCallum, John M.

McCrae, George

Pollard, Dr.

Tennant, H. J. (Berwickshire)

McKenna. Reginald

Price, C. E.(Edinburgh, Central)

Thomas, Sir A(Glamorgan, E.)

McKillop. W.

Price, Robert J. (Norfolk, E.)

Thomas. David Alfred (Merthyr

McLaren, H. D. (Stafford, W.)

Rainy, A. Rolland

Thorne, William

McMicking, Major G.

Raphael, Herbert H.

Tomkinson. James

Mallet, Charles E.

Rea, Russell (Gloucester)

Torrance, Sir A. M.

Manfield, Harry (Horthants)

Redmond, John E. (Waterford)

Toulmin, George

Mason, A. E. W. (Coventry)

Redmond, William (Clare)

Trevelyan, Charles Philips

Massie, J.

Rees, J.D.

Ure, Alexander

Masterman, C. F. G.

Rendall, Athelstan

Verney, F. W.

Meagher, Michael

Richards, Thos.(W. Monm'th)

Wadsworth. J.

Menzies, Walter

Richards, T.F.(Wolverh'mpt'n)

Walker, H. De R. (Leicester)

Micklem, Nathaniel

Richardson, A.

Wallance, Robert

Molteno, Percy Alport

Ridsdale, E. A.

Walsh, Stephen

Money, L. G. Chiozza

Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)

Walters, John Tudor

Montagu, E. S.

Roberts, G. H. (Norwich)

Walton, Sir. J. L. (Leeds, S.)

Mooney, J. J.

Robertson, Rt. Hn. E.(Dundee)

Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

Morgan, G. Hay (Cornwall)

Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside)

Ward, J. (Stoke upon Trent)

Morley, Rt. Hon. John

Robinson, S.

Wardle, George J.

Morrell, Philip.

Robson, Sir William Snowdon

Warner, Thos. Courtenay T.

Morse, L. L.

Roe, Sir Thomas

Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan)

Morton, Alpheus Cleophas

Rogers, F. E. Newman

Wason, John Cathcart(Orkney)

Murnaghan, George

Rowlands, J. j

Waterlow, D. S.

Murpby, John

Runciman, Walter

Watt, H. Anderson

Murray, James

Rutherford, V. H. (Brentford)

Wedgwood. Josiah C.

Myer, Horatio

Samuel, Herb. L. (Cleveland)

Weir, James Galloway

Nannetti, Joseph P.

Schwann, C. Duncan (Hyde)

White, George (Norfolk)

Napier, T. B.

Schwann, Sir C. E.(Manchester)

White, J.D. (Dumbartonshire)

Nicholls, George

Scott, A.H(Ashton under Lyne)

White, Luke (York, E. R.)

Nolan, Joseph

Sears, J. E.

White, Patrick (Meath, North)

Norton, Capt. Cecil William

Seely, Major J. B.

Whitehead, Rowland

Nussey, Thomas Willans

Shackleton, David James

Whitley. J. H. (Halifax)

Nuttall, Harry

Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)

Whittaker. Sir Thomas Palmer

O'Brien. K. (Tipperary Mid.)

Shaw, Rt. Hon. T.(Hawick, B.)

Wiles, Thomas

O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

Shipman, Dr. John G.

Wilkie, Alexander

O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W.)

Sinclair, Rt. Hon. John

Williams, J. (Glamorgan)

O'Doherty. Philip.

Sloan, Thomas Henry

Williams, Llewelyn-(Carm'rth'n

O'Grady, J.

Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie

Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)

O'Kelly, Jus. (Roscommon, N.)

Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.)

Wilson, Hon. C.H.W. (Hull, W.)

O'Malley, William

Snowden, f.

Wilson, Henry J. (York, W.R.)

O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

Soames, Arthur Wellesley

Wilson, J.W.(Worcestersh. N.)

Palmer, Sir Charles Mark

Soares, Ernest J.

Wilson, P. W. (St. Pancras, S.)

Parker, James (Halifax)

Spicer, Sir Albert

Wilson, W. T. (Westhonghton)

Partington, Oswald

Stanger, H. Y.

Winfrey, R.

Paul, Herbert

Stanley, Hn. A. Lyulph(Chesh.)

Wodehouse, Lord (Norfolk, Mid)

Paulton, James Mellor

Steadman, W. C.

Wood, T. M'Kinnon

Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek)

Stewart, Halley (Greenock)

Woodhouse, SirJ.T (Hudd'rsf'd

Pearce, William (Limehouse)

Strachey. Sir Edward

Young, Samuel

Perks, Robert William

Straus, B.S. (Mile End)

Yoxall, James Henry

Philipps, Col. Ivor (S'thampt'n

Stuart, James (Sunderland)

Philipps, Wynford (Pembroke)

Sullivan, Donal

TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr. Whiteley and Mr. J. A. Pease.

Philipps, Owen. C. (Pembroke)

Summerbell, T.

Pickersgill, Edward Hare

Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth)

Pirie, Duncan. V.

Taylor, John W. (Durham)

NOES.

Acland-Hood, Rt. Hn. SirAlex.F.

Cave, George

Faber, George Denison (York)

Anstruther-Gray, Major

Cavendish, Rt. Hn. Victor C.W.

Fell, Arthur

Arkwright. John Stanhope

Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

Finch. Rt. Hon. George H.

Ashley, W. W.

Cham ber lain, Rt. Hn.J. A(Wore.

Fletcher. J. S.

Balcarries Lord

Cochrane. Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

Forster. Henry William

Balfour, Rt, Hn. A.J.(CityLond.)

Collings. Rt. Hn. J.(Birm'gham)

Gardner, Ernest (Berks, East)

Banbury, Sir Frederick George

Corbett. T. L. (Down, North)

Gibbs, G. A.(Bristol, West)

Banner, John S. Harmood-

Craig, CharlesCurtis(Antrim,S.

Gordon. SirW. Evans(T'r Ham.

Barrie, H.T.(Londonderry, N.)

Craig, Capt. James (Down, E.)

Haddock. George R.

Beach, Hn. Michael Hugh Hicks

Craik, Sir Henry

Hamilton, Marquess of

Beckett, Hon. Gervase

Dalrymple, Viscount

Hardy, Laurence(Kent, Aahf'rd

Bignold, Sir Arthur

Dixon-Hartland, SirFredDixon

Harrison- Broadley, Col. H. B.

Bowles, G. Stewart

Doughty, Sir George

Hay. Hon. Claude George

Carlile, E. Hildred

Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

Helmsley, Viscount

Castlereagh, Viscount

Duncan, Robert (Lanark, Govan

Hill, Sir Clement (Shrewsbury

1152

1153

Hunt, Rowland

Morpeth, Viscount

Staveley-Hill, Henry (Staff'sh.)

Kennaway, Rt.Hn. Sir John H.

Nicholson, Wm-G. (Petersfield)

Stone, Sir Benjamin

Keswick, William

Parker, Sir Gilbert (Gravesend)

Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

Kimber, Sir Henry

Parkes, Kbenezer

Thomson, W. Mitchell-(Lanark)

Lambton, Hon. Frederick Win.

Pease, Herbert Pike(Darlington

Turnour, Viscount

Lane-Fox, G. R.

Percy, Earl

Valentia, Viscount

Law, Andrew Bonar (Dulwich)

Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

Vincent, Col. Sir C. E. Howard

Liddell. Henry

Randies, Sir John Scurrah

Walker, Col. W.H.(Lancashire)

Long, Col. Charles W.(Evesham)

Ratcliff, Major R. F.

Wilson,A. Sta ley (York.E.R.)

Lonsdale, John Brownlee

Rawlinson, John FrederickPeel

Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm

Lyttelton. Rt. Hon. Alfred

Remnant, James Farquharson

Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

McCalmont, Colonel James

Roberts, S.(Shemeld, Ecclesall)

Younger, George

Magnus, Sir Philip

Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert

Marks, H. H. (Kent)

Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert

TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Sir William Bull and Mr. Watson Rutherford.

Meysey-Thompson. E. C.

Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

Mildmay, Francis Bingham

Starkey, John R.

*MR. THOMAS SHAW*MR. THOMAS SHAW moved to substitute "sheriff" for the word "county" in the first line of sub-section (2) of Clause 5. He said he had investigated how the statutory provisions stood in regard to Scotland, and he found that it was the Sheriff-Clerk who ought properly to have charge of the duties involved.
Amendment proposed—
"In page 3, line 22, to leave out the word 'county,' und insert the word 'sheriff."—(Mr. Thomas Shaw.)
Question proposed, "That the word proposed to be left out stand part of the clause."
MR. YOUNGERsaid that technically no doubt the right hon. Gentleman was right in what he said, but it appeared to him that the more proper official in Scotland to whom the notice should be sent was the assessor, who was an export on the subject, besides being a much more capable official to exercise the duty, and much more likely to do it correctly. Anyone who knew anything about these assessors in Scotland knew that they were absolutely independent of anyone, and did their work admirably, and he did not think they ought to be superseded in this way.
*MR. THOMAS SHAWsaid with a very large portion of the speech of the hon. Gentleman he entirely agreed, especially with regard to the functions of the assessors. He did not know any set
of public officials who performed such a useful service from one end of Scotland to the other. They saved thousands of pounds to Scotland compared with similar expense incurred in England. If the hon. Gentleman looked at the second subsection of Clause 1, he would see that the notice of selection must be sent to the clerk of the county council or town clerk who was responsible for the printing of the parliamentary register of the selected constituency. He had investigated the statutes, and he found that in England no doubt it was quite true that the clerk of the county council or the town clerk was responsible for the printing of the parliamentary register. In Scotland, however, it was not the assessor but the Sheriff-Clerk alone, who had charge of the printing of the register.
MR. YOUNGERsaid it was generally the assessor who saw that it was done.
MR. THOMAS SHAWsaid whether that was so or not would not at all affect the point that in an Act of Parliament they must put the responsibility upon the identical officer who had charge of the printing. He had considered this matter very carefully, and he hoped the Committee would accept his assurance that his proposal was the right one.
Question put, and negatived.
Question put, "That the word 'sheriff be there inserted."
The Committee divided:—Ayes, 349; Noes, 82. (Division List No. 357.)

AYES.

Acland, Francis Dyke

Alden, Percy

Anstrnther-Gray, Major

Adkins, W. Ryland D.

Allen, Charles P. (Stroud)

Ashton, Thomas Gair

Ainsworth, John Stirling

Ambrose, Robert

Asquith, Rt. Hn. HerbertHenry

Atherley-Jones, L.

Dickinson, W.H.(St. Pancras, N.

Jowett, F. W.

Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth)

Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.

Joyce, Michael

Baker, Joseph A. (Finsbury, E.)

Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

Kearley, Hudson E.

Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight)

Donelan, Captain A.

Kekewich, Sir George

Barker, John

Duckworth, James

Kelley. George D.

Barlow, John Emmott(Somerse

Duncan, C.(Barrow-in-Furness)

Kennedy, Vincent Paul

Barlow, Percy (Bedford)

Duncan. J. H. (York, Otley)

Kincaid-Smith, Captain

Barnard, E. B.

Dunn, A. Edward (Camborne)

King, Alfred John (Knutsford)

Beale, W. P.

Dunne, Maj. E. Martin (Walsall)

Kitson, Rt. Hon. Sir James

Beauchamp, E.

Edwards, Clement (Denbigh)

Laidlaw, Robert

Beaumont, Hn. W.C.B(Hexham

Edwards, Enoch (Hanley)

Lamb, Edmund G.(Leominster)

Beck, A. Cecil

Edwards, Frank (Radnor)

Lamb, Ernest H. (Rochester)

Bell, Richard

Elibank, Master of

Lambert, George

Bellairs, Carlyon

Ellis, Rt. Hon. John Edward

Lamont, Norman

Benn, SirJ. Williams(Devonp'it

Erskine, David C.

Langley, Batty

Benn, W.(T'w'rHamlets,S. Geo.)

Esmonde, Sir Thomas

Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, W.)

Bertram, Julius

Everett, R. Lacey

Layland-Barratt, Francis

Billson, Alfred

Faber, G. H. (Boston)

Leese, Sir Joseph F.(Accrington)

Black, Arthur W. (Bedfordshire

Fenwick, Charles

Lehmann, R. C.

Boland, John

Ferguson, R. C. Munro

Lever, A. Levy (Essex,Harwich)

Boulton, A. C. F. (Ramsey)

Field, William

Lever, W. H. (Cheshire, Wirral)

Bowerman, C. W.

Fiennes, Hon. Eustace

Levy, Maurice

Brace, William

Flynn, James Christopher

Lewis, John Herbert

Brigg, John

Freeman-Thomas, Freeman

Lough, Thomas

Bright, J. A.

Fuller, John Michael F.

Lundon, W.

Brocklehurst, W. B.

Fullerton, Hugh

Lupton. Arnold

Brooke, Stopford

Gardner, Col. Alan (Hereford, S.)

Lynch, H. B.

Brunner, J. F. L. (Lanes., Leigh)

Gibb, James (Harrow)

Macdonald, J. M. (FalkirkB'ghs)

Brunner, Rt, Hn SirJ. T(Cheshire

Gill, A. H.

Mackarness, Frederic C.

Bryce, J. A. (Inverness Burghs)

Ginnell, L.

Macnamara. Dr. Thomas J.

Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn

Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herber John

MacVeagh, Jeremiah (Down, S.)

Buckmaster, Stanley O.

Glover, Thomas

MacVeigh, Charles(Donegal,E.)

Burke, E. Haviland-

Goddard, Daniel Ford

M'Callum, John M.

Burns, Rt. Hon. John

Gooch, George Peabody

M'Crae, George

Burnyeat, W. J. D.

Greenwood, G. (Peterborough)

M'Kenna, Reginald

Buxton, Rt. Hn. Sydney Charles

Gulland, John W.

M'Killop, W.

Byles, William Pollard

Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

M'Laren, H. D. (Stafford, W.)

Cairns, Thomas

Hall, Frederick

M'Micking, Major C.

Cameron, Robert

Harcourt, Right Hon. Lewis

Mallet, Charles E.

Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.

Hardie, J. Keir(MerthyrTydvil)

Manfield, Harry (Northants)

Carr-Gomm, H. W.

Hardy, George A. (Suffolk)

Mason, A. E. W. (Coventry)

Causton, Rt. Hn. Richard Knight

Harmsworth, Cecil B. (Wore'r)

Massie, J.

Cawley, Frederick

Hart-Davies, T.

Masterman, C. F. G.

Chance, Frederick William

Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale)

Meagher, Michael

Cheetham, John Frederick

Harwood, George

Menzies, Walter

Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R.

Haslam, James (Derbyshire)

Micklem, Nathaniel

Churchill, Winston Spencer

Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth)

Molteno, Percy Alport

Clarke. C. Goddard

Haworth, Arthur A.

Money, L. (J. Chiozza

Cleland, J. W.

Hazel, Dr. A. E.

Montagu, E. S.

Clough, W.

Helme, Norval Watson

Mooney, J. J.

Clynes, J. R.

Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

Morgan, G. Hay (Cornwall)

Coats, SirT. Glen(Renfrew, W.)

Henry, Charles S.

Morley, Rt. Hon. John

Cobbold, Felix Thornley

Herbert, Colonel Ivor(Mon., S.)

Morre'll, Philip

Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

Hobart, Sir Robert

Morse, L. L.

Cooper, G. J.

Hodge, John

Morton, Alpheus Cleophas

Corbett, C.H. (Sussex, E. Grinst'd

Hogan, Michael

Murnaghnn, George

Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.

Holland, Sir William Henry

Murphy, John

Cotton. Sir H. J. S.

Hooper, A. G.

Murray. James

Cowan, W. H.

Horniman, Emslie John

Myer, Horatio

Cox, Harold

Horridge, Thomas Gardner

Nannetti, Joseph P.

Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth)

Howard, Hon. Geoffrey

Napier, T. B.

Cremer, William Randal

Hudson, Walter

Newnes, Sir George (Swansea)

Crombie. John William

Hutton, Alfred Eddison

Nicholls, George

Crooks, William

Idris, T. H. W.

Nolan, Joseph

Dalmeny, Lord

Illingworth, Percy H.

Norton, Capt. Cecil William

Dalrymple, Viscount

Isaacs, Rufus Daniel

Nussey, Thomas Willans

Davies, Ellis William (Eifion)

Jackson, R. S.

Nuttall. Harry

Davies, M. Vaughan (Cardigan)

Jacoby, James Alfred

O'Brien, Kindal(TipperaryMid)

Davies, Timothy (Fulham)

Jardine, Sir J. '

O'Brien. Patrick (Kilkenny)

Davies, W. Howell (Bristol, S.)

Jenkins, J.

O'Connor. James(Wicklow, W.)

Delany, William

Jones, Sir D. Brynmor(Swansea

O'Doherty. Philip

Dewar, Arthur (Edinburgh, S.)

Jones, Leif (Appleby)

O'Kelly, James(Roscommon, N.

Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh.)

Jones, William(Carnarvonshire)

O'Malley, William

1156

1157

O'Shanghnessy, P. J.

Schwann, C. Duncan (Hyde)

Walsh, Stephen

Palmer, Sir Charles Mark

Schwann, Sir C. E.(.Manchester

Walters, John Tudor

Parker, James (Halifax)

Scott, A. H.(Ashton-und.-Lyne)

Walton, Sir John L. (Leeds, S.)

Partington, Oswald

Sears. J. E.

Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

Paul, Herbert

Seely, Major J. 15.

Ward. John(Stoke-upon-Trent)

Paulton, James Mellor

Shackleton, David James

Wardle, George J.

Pearce, Robert (Stuffs, Leek)

Shaw. Charles Edw. (Stafford)

Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.

Pearce, William (Limehouse)

Shaw, Rt. Hon. T. (Hawick, B.)

Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan)

Perks. Robet William

Shipman, Dr. John G.

Wason, John Cathcart(Orkney)

Philipps, J. Wynford(Pembroke

Sinclair, Rt. Hon. John

Waterlow. D. S.

Philipps, Owen C. (Pembroke)

Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie

Watt, H. Anderson

Pickersgill, Edward Hare

Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.)

Wedgwood, Josiah C.

Pirie, Duncan V.

Snowden, P.

Weir, James Galloway

Pollard, Dr.

Soames, Arthur Wellesley

White, George (Norfolk)

Price, C.E.(Edinburgh, Central)

Soares, Ernest J.

White, J. D.(Dumbartonshire)

Price, Robert John(Norfolk, E.)

Spicer, Sir Albert

While. Luke (York, E.R.)

Radford, G. H.

Stanger, H. Y.

White, Patrick (Meath, North)

Rainy. A. Holland

Stanley, Hn. A. Lyulph (Chesh.)

Whitehead, Rowland

Raphael, Herbert H.

Steadman, W. C.

Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

Bea, Russell (Gloucester)

Stewart, Halley (Greenock)

Whittaker, Sir Thomas Palmer

Rea, Walter Russell (Scarboro)

Strachey, Sir Edward

Wiles, Thomas

Redmond, John E. (Waterford

Straus, B. S. (Mile End)

Wilkie, Alexander

Redmond, William (Clare)

Stuart, James (Sunderland)

Williams, J. (Glamorgan)

Roes, J. D.

Sullivan, Donal

Williams, Llewelyn (Carm'rth'n

Rendall, Athelstan

Summerbell, T.

Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)

Richards, Thomas(W. Monm'th

Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth)

Wilson, Hon. C. H.W.(Hull, W.)

Richards, T. F.(Wolverh'mpt'n

Taylor, John W. (Durham)

Wilson, Henry J.(York, W. R

Richardson. A.

Tennant, H. J. (Berwickshire)

Wilson, J. W. (Worcestersh. N.)

Ridsdale, E. A.

Thomas, Sir A.(Glamorgan, E.)

Wilson, P. W. (St. Pancras, S.)

Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)

Thomas, David Alfred(Merthyr)

Wilson, W. T. (Westhonsrhton)

Roberts, G. H. (Norwich)

Thomson, W. Mitchell (Lanark)

Winfrey, R.

Robertson, Rt. Hn E. (Dundee)

Thorne, William

Wodehouse, Lord (Norfolk, Mid)

Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside)

Tomkinson, James

Wood, T. M'Kinnon

Robinson, S.

Torrance, Sit A. M.

Woodhouse, SirJ. T.(Huddersf'd

Robson, Sir William Snowdon

Toulmin, George

Young, Samuel

Roe, Sir Thomas

Trevelyan, Charles Philips

Younger, George

Rogers, V. E. Newman

Ure, Alexander

Yoxall, James Henry

Rowlands, J.

Verney, F. W.

Runciman, Walter

Wadsworth, J.

TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr. Whiteley and Mr. J. A. Pease.

Rutherford, V. H. (Brentford)

Waldron, Laurence Ambrose

Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)

Walker, H. De R. (Leicester)

Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel)

Wallace, Robert

NOES.

Acland-Hood. Rt. Hn. Sir AlexF.

Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

M'Calmont, Colonel James

Arkwright, John Stanhope

Duncan, Robert (Lanark, Govan

Marks, H. H. (Kent)

Ashley, W. W.

Faber, George Denison (York)

Meysey-Thompson, E. C.

Balcarres, Lord

Fell, Arthur

Mildmay, Francis Bingham

Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J.(City Lond.

Finch, Rt. Hon. George H.

Morpeth, Viscount

Banner, John S. Harmood

Fletcher, J. S.

Nicholson, Win. G. (Petersfield)

Barrie, H.T. (Londonderry, N.)

Forster, Henry William

Parker, Sir Gilbert (Gravesend)

Beach, Hn. Michael Hugh Hicks

Gardner, Ernest (Berks, East)

Parkes, Ebenezer

Beckett, Hon. Gervase

Gibbs, G. A. (Bristol, West)

Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington)

Bignold, Hon. Gervase

Gordon, Sir W. Evans-(T'r Ham.

Percy, Earl

Bowles. G. Stewart

Haddock, George R.

Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

Carlile, E. Hildred

Hamilton, Marquess of

Randles, Sir John Scurrah

Castlereagh, Viscount

Hardy, Laurence(Kent, Ashf'rd)

Racliff, Major R. F.

Cave, George

Harrison-Broadley. Col. H. B.

Rawlinson, John FrederickPeel

Cavendish, Rt. Hn. Victor C.W.

Hay, Hon. Claude George

Remnant, James Farquharson

Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

Hill, Sir Clement (Shrewsbury)

Roberts, S.(Sheffield, Ecclesall)

Cecil, Lord R. (Marlebone, E.)

Hunt. Rowland

Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert

Chamberlain. Bt Hit J. A. (Wore.)

Keswick. William

Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool)

Coates, E. Feetham (Lewisham

Kimber. Sir Henry

Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert

Collings, Rt. Hn. J.(Birm'gham)

Lane-Fox, G. R.

Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

Corbett, N. L. (Down, North)

Liddell, Henry

Starkey, John R.

Craig, CharlesCnrtis(Antrim, S.)

Long. Col. Charles W.(Evesham)

Staveley-Hill, Henry (Staff'sh)

Craig, Capt. James (Down, E.)

Lonsdale, John Brownlee

Talbot, Lord E. (ChiChester)

Dixon-Hartland, Sir FredDixon

Lyttleton, Rt. Hon. Alfred

Tumour, Viscount

Doughty, Sir George

Maclver, David (Liverpool)

Valentia, Viscount

1158

1159

Vincent, Col. Sir C. E. Howard

Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm

TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Sir Frederick Banbury and Sir William Bull.

Walker, Col. W. H. (Lancashire)

Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-

Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E.R.)

Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

Question, "That those words be there added," put, and agreed to.

Amendment proposed—
"In page 3, line 23,at end, to add the words, 'and Section 3 of the Parliamentary Elections and Corrupt Practices Act, 1880, shall be substituted for Section 81 of the Parliamentary Voters' Registration Act, 1843; and the expression 'university' shall include a combination of universities.'"—(Mr. Thomas Shaw.)
MR. WILLIAM RUTHERFORD MR. WILLIAM RUTHERFORD moved to add words to provide that nothing in Section 5 should enable the Secretary for Scotland to modify or vary any Act of Parliament. He gathered from the explanation given by the Lord-Advocate that he would probably not be unwilling to accept such an Amendment. It appeared to him that when giving extensive powers to the Secretary for Scotland to issue instructions it should be perfectly clear that if some Acts of Parliament were to be modified or varied it should be done by Parliament and not by the Secretary for Scotland. They ought' to know what was to be altered, and what, if anything, was to be put in its place. If the intention was that the Secretary for Scotland should only be empowered to issue instructions for the purpose of enabling this Act to be carried out it seemed to him that the Government might accept the Amendment. If it was intended that the Secretary for Scotland should be able to issue instructions of such a character that he would be able to alter or vary Acts of Parliament, then he thought they ought to oppose the clause as far as possible.
Amendment proposed—
"After the words last added, to add the words 'Provided always that nothing contained in this section shall empower the Secretary for Scotland to alter or modify the terms of any Act of Parliament.'" —(Mr. William Rutherford.)
Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."
MR. THOMAS SHAWsaid the hon. Member might take it from him that; there was no desire to go one iota beyond
1160
the provisions of the Act of Parliament. After all, if he might say so without offence, he thought a great deal more had been made of these Orders in Council, and the instructions to be issued by the Secretary for Scotland, than really they were worth. When they came to ex-amino the proposal they would find that substantially what the Order in Council was to provide for was the kind of mark to be put on the register. The Order in Council was to give some practical guidance to those in charge of the making up of the register. In the case of Scotland that was to be done by the Secretary for Scotland with the supplementary provision that he should give instructions for the extra marking caused by the difference in the statutory year for the register in Scotland from the calendar year to which the English register applied. There was no necessity for the stipulation proposed by the hon. Member. No one could believe that it would enter the mind of any officer to go beyond the law. Anything he did in that way would be null and void and of absolutely no effect whatever. If the words of the Amendment were added the clause would be awkward. It might raise a question as to why Parliament had made the stipulation. Between now and the Report stage he would be willing to consider the whole point. He did not think the hon. Member would wish him to go further at this stage. He would very carefully consider the point with those advisers who were skilled in the framing of such clause.
MR. A. J. BALFOURsaid that nobody could complain of the tone or substance of the remarks of the right hon. and learned Gentleman; but it must have been noticed that oven in the course of his explanation he had admitted that there was by this Bill a very wide distinction between the functions of those entrusted with the preparation of Orders in Council and those which were to be entrusted to the Secretary for Scotland. That was not due to any ill-will on the part of the Government, but to the accident of the difference between the registers of Scotland and England. The result, however, was that much wider

1161
powers would be entrusted to the Secretary for Scotland than were found necessary in the case of the corresponding authorities in England. The right hon. and learned Gentleman had told the Committee, and they were bound to accept his assurance as representing the intentions of the Government, that to the best of his belief no existing statute would be altered by the regulations laid down by the Secretary for Scotland. Of course, the right hon. and learned Gentleman would be the first to admit that a mere statement by a Minister of the Crown that certain powers given by this House would not be misused, would not be a justification for putting excessive powers in a statute. Governments changed and Members of the Government changed, but this House had to legislate for the whole period between the passing of a statute and its repeal. They were, therefore, bound to watch with a very jealous eye any powers given to an executive officer dealing with modification of Acts of Parliament. He thought they should not give such powers except after the most careful consideration. The right hon. and learned Gentleman had laid down the proposition that anything done by the Secretary for Scotland in contravention of existing statutes would be null and void. He quite agreed that if those acts were null and void there would be no use in his hon. friend moving these words. But would that be so? The right hon. and learned Gentleman might be a greater master of legal interpretation than he was, but supposing that under the words of the statute when passed into law as it now stood, the action of the Secretary for Scotland was challenged in Court and the Secretary for Scotland said, "In obedience to an Act of Parliament I have no doubt modified previous statutes, but the Court will observe that I did not modify them more than was absolutely necessary in order to make the Act workable."
Would that be nullified? He did not think it would be. In the first place they must be assured that there was no power to modify statutes, and in the second place that all that was to be done could be done without modifying statutes. He hoped the right hon. and learned Gentleman would make this perfectly clear and that between now and the
1162
Report stage he would work out the exact regulations which the Secretary for Scotland would have to issue in order to make the Bill workable. When the right hon. and learned Gentleman did that and convinced himself that nothing required to be modified, surely the natural susceptibilities of the House would be met if he inserted some words of the kind suggested by the Amendment of his hon. friend. There might be precedents for granting powers to particular officers of the Crown of modifying statutes, but they must be very rare; and he earnestly pressed the Government to preserve a perfectly sound precedent and to limit the possibility of any abuse of the general principles of legislation by taking care that legislation should only be modified by legislation and that the Executive of the Crown should be strictly limited as to the instructions to be laid down by them.
MR. THOMAS SHAWsaid it was only just to the Committee to say that he was very much obliged for the observations of the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition, who had stated exactly the nature and character of the difficulties which were in his own mind.
MR. WILLIAM RUTHERFORDsaid that it must be obvious to the right hon. and learned Gentleman in charge of this clause of the Bill that he had the advantage of those who sat on the Opposition side of the House, because he probably knew what the instructions were to be, while they did not. He took it that between now and the Report stage the matter would be sifted, and that the right hon. and learned Gentleman would be able to say whether the instructions did or did not require any modifications of Acts of Parliament. In the event of his finding that the instructions might modify an Act of Parliament he suggested that the right hon. and learned Gentleman should tell the House on the Report: stage the exact manner in which it was intended to vary or alter such Act of Parliament.
MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAINcalled the attention of the right hon. and learned Gentleman to two specific cases where modification of an Act of Parliament would have to be made. There was Section 13 of the

1163
Registration of Voters (Scotland) Act, which said that "the said printed book or books as signed in any burgh should be regarded as the list of persons entitled to vote," and there was the 31st section of the Registration of County Voters (Scotland) Act, where a similar provision would have to be varied.
MR. THOMAS SHAWsaid that that was a very just and useful interposition. It was on account of just such a proviso that he would be deceiving the Committee if he accepted a broad Amendment saying that there should be no interference with any Act of Parliament. What they must do was to provide that the Secretary for Scotland should not do more in his executive capacity than Parliament desired. He did not wish to mislead the Committee by giving them to understand that he was pledged to the text of the regulations, because Orders in Council could not be produced until the whole of the statute had been passed by both Houses of Parliament.
MR. WILLTAM RUTHERFORDsaid that alter the explanation of the right hon. and learned Gentleman he would ask leave to withdraw his Amendment, leaving the matter to be dealt with on the Report stage.
Amendment by leave, withdrawn.
Motion made and Question proposed, "That Clause 5, as amended, stand part of the Bill."
*SIR HENRY CRAIKsaid he wished to point out some very serious administrative difficulties which were involved in this clause, and he thought in doing so he would have some sympathy from many Members of the Liberal party in Scotland. He joined most fully in the gratitude expressed by the Leader of the Opposition 'for the most courteous altitude of the right hon. and learned Lord-Advocate, and for the clearness of the observations 'which he had made; but the right hon. and learned Gentleman would forgive him for saying that he had failed, from oversight, to answer some of the questions which had been raised in the debate. He wished to deal with this matter not in its legal aspects but on broad constitutional grounds of a most important
1164
kind for Scotland. He thought that not all the Members for Scotland would quite join in the trustful optimism shown by the hon. Member for Kirkcaldy. He wished to make a strong protest against the clause on the ground that this was legislation by reference of the most pronounced and worst kind. He had had the advantage, or disadvantage, of a very long administrative experience, and one thing which more than another had impressed itself upon him was the serious inexpediency of permanent officials or officials of any kind venturing to legislate by Minute. Over and over again the right hon. Gentleman had himself joined in those denunciations and had told them, amid the plaudits of his supporters, that this was a thing which must be brought to a conclusion. Let them see what these much - abused Minutes had aimed at doing. Occasionally by Minutes or Orders in Council necessary sums had to be expended and points of administrative detail of the minutest kind had to be settle0d. Matters which during the course of the year might occur and which no one could foresee had to be dealt with by these Minutes. These Minutes were necessarily laid upon the Table of the House, and the House had the right to criticise and to debate upon them. They had no effect until the House of Commons sanctioned them. Under Clause 5 of this Hill the process by Order in Council, which applied to England, was not to apply to Scotland. He had asked the reason of this, pointing out that in Scotland Orders in Council were just as frequent, and just as usual as in England. An Order in Council, he reminded the Committee, had necessarily to be published in the Gazett. It might be laid upon the Table of the House, and Parliament might exercise its Imperial functions in regard to it. Why, therefore, bad they not the same process of Order in Council made applicable to Scotland? There were not even to be orders of the Secretary for Scotland. The words used were that the Secretary for Scotland might "issue instructions"—not an order which would stand the brunt of criticism in the House, but instructions which might be issued to various people from time to time, modified as seemed expedient, and which, for all they knew, might not necessarily be uniform. An intricate Bill had been laid before the House, and he supposed that

1165
when it came to applying it to Scotland, where the electoral law was not in all respects the same, where the currency of the electoral year was different, and where the agencies through which the law was carried out were entirely different, it was found difficult to have entirely separate and independent clauses in the Bill, and the right hon. Gentleman came to the conclusion that the best way to deal with the situation was to cut the Gordian knot altogether, and say he would not deal with it by the Act of Parliament, and would not introduce provisions different from those applicable to England—provisions which practically would amount to a new Bill—but would trust to the Secretary for Scotland and, as they could not foresee all the possible difficulties, give him absolute discretion and add to his administrative powers so chat he might meet any difficulty which arose by issuing special instructions as might seem to him fit. He knew that complaints such as he was now making had been made over and over again by Members on the opposite Benches who were his colleagues in the representation of Scotland, and he hoped that they were not of the Tom Acres species of politicians who, strong and courageous on the hustings, dared not express their views in opposition to the Treasury Bench. He hoped they would have the courage of their opinions. He did not doubt their sincerity, but they should remember that in Scotland interpretations far from pleasant might be placed upon their absence from the debate. They had the vital interests of Scotland in their power, and he thought it was far from creditable to them that they should have left it to one of the despised and discredited University Members to stand up for them. He considered Scotland had also another grievance in the fact that the Secretary for Scotland had not given them the benefit of his advice and assistance. The right hon. Gentleman underrated his own authority in the House, and the respect in which he was held. He made his protest, not in any way as touching the merits of the Bill—that would be out of order—but against the inclusion of Scotland within the provisions of the Bill by a clause which did not take adequate account of the different circumstances, but which rivetted upon Scotland government by Minute and instruction in a far more
1166
pronounced and pernicious form than it had ever taken before. Someone had objected to the clause because it was legislation by reference. It was far worse. It could not be legislation by reference, because it would be difficult to find another Act of Parliament which would compare with the provisions of this clause. It was legislation by delegation, and that of the worst sort. It was not delegation to any Provincial Council or a Home Rule Bill; it was not delegation to any local authority—it was legislation by delegation to officials. In the name of Scottish Members be protested against it.
SIR EDWARD SASSOONsaid he could not but associate himself with the animadversions which had been uttered by his hon. friend as to the unfair attitude which had been adopted by the Government. This was especially remarkable, as the one person in whose hands the electoral fortunes of Scotland rested was absent. He did not wish to drive home the pusillanimous and chicken-hearted conduct of Scottish Members opposite in regard to a question 'which concerned their interests and those of their constituents. His principal object was to put to the Lord Advocate one simple question. The right hon. Gentleman had told them in the hypothetical case put by the Loader of the Opposition of the English elector who on' the 1st of November selected a Scottish constituency, that so far as Scotland was concerned he would be debarred from exercising his vote, but in England he would still be allowed to exercise it if I an election took place in November or December. If in Scotland an election took place in those months an elector who asked for a voting paper would be I confronted with the question whether he happened to be on any other registar in any other constituency. Of course he would have to answer in the affirmative, and he would not be allowed to vote between November and January.
SIR F. BANBURYsaid though he listened attentively to the speech of the hon. Member who opened the debate on this clause, he was no wiser at the end of that speech than at the beginning. It seemed to him that the apprehensions in the mind of the hon. Member were very great, and that the consequences.

1167
of the Bill might be very disastrous to Scotland. The Lord Advocate, on the other hand, had shown very clearly and very lucidly what the effect of this clause would be, and after listening to the right hon. Gentleman he had come to the conclusion that there were two very serious objections to it. The first was that it would make the register of Scotland very complicated, and would cause great confusion in the minds of those who had plural qualifications. It would be very difficult for a voter with a double qualification to find out whether, if he exercised his vote, he would be subject to some of the penalties which had been referred to. Orders in Council were laid on the Table of this House and published in the Gazette, and although it was difficult for an ordinary voter to find out what an Order in Council contained, if he was a very keen politician he could no doubt find from the Gazette what his position was. But in this particular case, so far as the Committee was aware, there was no provision for publishing in any way the Orders which the Secretary of Scotland might issue. He might issue them without even telling anyone in the Scottish Office that he had issued them, and it would be quite impossible to find out what steps were to be taken in respect of them. That was a very serious objection to the clause. If it made it more difficult for a gentleman to exercise his vote it was to be deplored. The second objection was that power was being placed in the hands of the Secretary for Scotland that had never before been put into the hands of any Minister. The Lord Advocate, in answer to a question by the hon. Member, put very clearly the difficulty he was in. The right hon. Gentleman said the Amendment was a good one but that the Secretary for Scotland would not do anything which would abrogate or nullify an Act of Parliament, and that being so it appeared to him that it was unnecessary for the Amendment to be inserted. But the right hon. Member for East Worcestershire got up and read extracts from two Acts of Parliament, and the right hon. Gentleman admitted their truth and professed to be glad of the interruption because he said it showed the difficulty in which he was placed, inasmuch as it was absolutely necessary if the provisions of this clause were to be carried out to insure that the Secretary
1168
for Scotland should have power to alter the two Acts of Parliament of which only a few words had been read. That was a very serious objection. He should strongly object to any official arrogating to himself the powers that ought to be exercised by this House, and in that way altering Acts of Parliament which had only been placed upon the Statute-book after considerable deliberation.
MR. THOMAS SHAWsaid in regard to the difficulties presented in this clause the Committee would excuse him going over all the points again, because he had already explained them to the Committee with much elaboration, and in the position in which the Committee found itself it was not fair to ask for an explanation to each legal point as it arose. He did not wish the Committee to misconstrue his views, but he submitted to them that every one of these points had been considered except that which he had discussed with the Leader of the Opposition. The senior Member for the City of London had again raised these questions, and he begged the right hon. Gentleman to accept the assurance that all of them were being considered. As to the taunt thrown at the Scottish Members by the hon. Member for Glasgow and Aberdeen Universities, he could have wished the hon. Member had stopped before he got to loggerheads with his Scottish colleagues. He was sure the hon. Member would not place any unpleasant construction on the action of the Scottish Members in this matter, and if he did not, nobody else would. He again assured the Committee that there was no fear whatever of the Department of the Secretary for Scotland going beyond the scope of the Act of Parliament. Speaking of the Scottish Members generally, he thought he could say that in their judgment the question had been thoroughly threshed out, and that the situation had been clarified by the discussions. They were all agreed that this was a good, ship shape clause.
MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAINsaid the right hon. Gentleman had been so genial and courteous that he was sure there would be no disposition in any part of the Committee to deal harshly with him. He did not, however, think the concessions or the promises which the

1169
right hon. Gentleman had made could be said to remove their objections to this clause, but they had very sensibly mitigated their objections to the clause in its final form. He would only add a few words in the nature of a plea to the right hen. Gentleman that he would not be too hard upon the Opposition for taking the opportunity on the Question being put that the clause stand part of the Bill, to summarise the arguments which had been used against the clause on individual Amendments to that clause. He would merely enter a mild protest against the censure of the right hon. Gentleman, and venture to suggest that on reflection he would admit that the discussion had been essentially businesslike. The Government themselves had admitted frequently that on the points raised by the Opposition the Bill had required amendment, and even when the Government had refused Amendments, it was because they were of so substantial a nature that they would have altered one of the principles of the measure.
VISCOUNT TURNOURurged the Lord-Advocate that he should simplify the Order in Council as much as
possible, so that every voter in Scotland might be able to understand it. The whole of the Bill, and especially this clause, made it very difficult for a voter to understand exactly what he had got to do and the nature of the penalties he would incur. According to "Rogers on Elections," a person might vote even when deaf, dumb, or blind, and in some cases when imbecile. If a person could show by signs or otherwise that he knew the purpose for which he had gone to the poll, the obligations of an oath, and the dangers of perjury, a returning officer was not justified in refusing the vote. That being so, it was to be hoped that the Lord Advocate and the Secretary for Scotland would make the Order in Council as simple as possible, otherwise a poor man from some misapprehension of the meaning of such an Order might incur all the rigorous penalties which this Bill imposed. He wished to add his humble tribute to the Lord Advocate for the great courtesy he had displayed during the debate.
Question put.
The Committee divided:—Ayes, 364; Noes, 86. (Division List, No. 358.)

AYES.

Abraham, William(Cork, N.E.)

Black, Arthur W. (Bedfordsh.

Churchill, Winston Spencer

Abraham, William (Rhondda)

Boland, John

Clarke, C. Goddard

Acland, Francis Dyke

Bolton,T.D. (Derbyshire, N.E.

Cleland, J. W.

Adkins, W. Ryland D.

Boulton, A. C. F. (Ramsey)

Clough, W.

Ainsworth, John Stirling

Bowerman, C. W.

Clynes, J. R.

Alden, Percy

Brace, William

Coats.Sir T.Glen (Renfrew, W

Allen, A. Acland (Christchurch)

Bramsdon, T. A.

Cobbold, Felix Thornley

Allen, Charles P. (Stroud)

Brigg, John

Collins.Sir Wm.J.(S.Pancras,W

Ambrose, Robert

Bright, J. A.

Cooper, G. J.

Ashton, Thomas Gair

Brocklehurst, W. B.

Corbett,C.H.(Sussex, E.G'nst'd

Asquith,Rt. Hn. Herbert Henry

Brodie, H. C.

Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.

Astbury, John Meir

Brooke, Stopford

Cotton, Sir H. J. S.

Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth)

Brunner.J.F.L. (Lancs.,Leigh)

Cowan, W. H.

Baker, Joseph A.(Finabury,E.)

Brunner,Rt.Hn.Sir J.T.(Chesh.

Cox, Harold

Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight)

Bryce,Rt.Hn.James (Aberdeen

Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth)

Barker, John

Bryce, J.A. (Inverness Burghs)

Cremer, William Randal

Barlow,John Emmott (S'm'rs't

Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn

Crombie, John William

Barlow, Percy (Bedford)

Buckmaster, Stanley O.

Crosfield, A. H.

Barnard, E. B.

Burke, E. Haviland.

Dalmeny, Lord

Barnes, G. N.

Burns, Rt. Hon. John

Dalziel, James Henry

Beale, W. P.

Burnyeat, W. J. D.

Davies, Ellis William (Eifion)

Beauchamp, E.

Buxton,Rt.Hn.Sydney Charles

Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardigan

Beaumont,Hn.W.C.B. (H'x'm

Byles, William Pollard

Davies, Timothy (Fulham)

Beck, A. Cecil

Cairns, Thomas

Davies, W. Howell (Bristol, S.

Bell, Richard

Cameron, Robert

Delany, William

Bellairs, Carlyon

Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.

Dewar, Arthur (Edinburgh, S.)

Benn.Sir J.Williams (DVnp'rt

Carr-Gomm, H. W.

Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh.

Benn, W. (T'w'r H'ml'ts, S.Geo

Causton,Rt.Hn.RichardKnight

Dickinson, W.H.(St.Pancras,N.

Bertram, Julius

Cawley, Frederick

Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.

Bethell, J.H. (Essex, Romford)

Chance, Frederick William

Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

Billson, Alfred

Cheetham, John Freder ck

Donelan, Captain A.

Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine

Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R.

Duckworth, James

Duncan, C.(Barrow-in-Furness

Kearley, Hudson E.

O'Malley, William

Duncan, J. H. (York, Otley)

Kekewich, Sir George

O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

Dunn, A. Edward (Camborne

Kelley, George D.

Palmer, Sir Charles Mark

Dunne,Major E.Martin(Walsall

Kennedy, Vincent Paul

Parker, James (Halifax)

Edwards, Clement (Denbigh)

Kincaid-Smith, Captain

Partington. Oswald

Edwards, Enoch (Hanley)

King, Alfred John (Knutsford

Paul, Herbert

Edwards, Frank (Radnor)

Kitson, Rt. Hon. Sir James

Paulton, James Mellor

Elibank, Master of

Laidlaw, Robert

Pearce, Robert (Staffs. Leek)

Ellis, Rt. Hon. John Edward

Lamb, Edmund G.(Leominster)

Pearce, William (Limehouse)

Erskine, David C.

Lamb, Ernest H. (Rochester)

Perks, Robert William

Esmonde, Sir Thomas

Lambert, George

Philipps,J. Wynford (Pembroke

Eve, Harry Trelawney

Lamont, Norman

Philipps, Owen C. (Pembroke

Everett, R. Lacey

Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, W.)

Pickersgill, Edward Hare

Faber, G. H. (Boston)

Layland-Barratt, Francis

Pirie, Duncan V.

Fenwick, Charles

Leese,Sir Joseph F.(Accringt'n

Pollard, Dr.

Ferguson, R. C. Munro

Lehmann, R. C.

Price, C. 10. (Edinb'gh.Central)

Field, William

Lever,A. Levy (Essex,Harwich)

Price,Robert John (Norfolk,E.

Fiennes, Hon. Eustace

Lever, W.H. (Cheshire, Wirral)

Rainy, A. Rolland

Flynn, James Christopher

Levy, Maurice

Raphael, Herbert H.

Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

Lewis, John Herbert

Rea, Russell (Gloucester)

Freeman-Thomas, Freeman

Lough, Thomas

Rea, Walter Russell (Scarboro'

Fuller, John Michael F.

Lundon, W.

Redmond, John E. (Waterford

Fullerton, Hugh

Maedonald,J.M. (Falkirk B'ghs

Redmond, William (Clare)

Gardner,Col.Alan (Hereford,S.

Mackarness, Frederic C.

Rees, J. D.

Gibb, James (Harrow)

Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.

Rendall, Athelstan

Gill, A. H.

Macpherson, J. T.

Richards,Thomas (W.Monm'th

Ginnell, L.

MacVeagh,Jeremiah (Down, S.

Richards, T. V. (Wolverli'mpt'n

Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Her belt John

MacVeigh, Charles (Donegal.E.

Richardson. A.

Glover, Thomas

M'Callum, John M.

Ridsdale, E. A.

Goddard, Daniel Ford

M'Crae, George

Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)

Gooch, George Peabody

M'Kean, John

Roberts, G. H. (Norwich)

Greenwood, G. (Peterborough)

M'Kenna, Reginald

Robertson, Rt.Hn. E. (Dundee

Gulland, John W.

M'Killop, W.

Robertson.Sir G.Scott (B'rdf'd

Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

M'Laren, H. D. (Stafford, W.)

Robertson, J. W. (Tyneside)

Hall, Frederick

M'Micking, Major G.

Robinson, S.

Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Lewis

Maddison, Frederick

Robson, Sir William Snowdon

Hardie,J.Keir (Merthyr Tydvil

Mallet, Charles E.

Roe, Sir Thomas

Hardy, George A. (Suffolk)

Manfield, Harry (Northants)

Rogers, F. E. Newman

Harmsworth, Cecil B. (Worc'r

Marnham, F, J.

Rowlands, J.

Hart-Davies, T.

Mason, A. E. W. (Coventry)

Runciman, Walter

Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale)

Massie, J.

Rutherford, V. H. (Brentford)

Harwood, George

Masterman, C. F. G.

Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland

Haslam, James (Derbyshire)

Meagher, Michael

Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel)

Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth)

Menzies, W'alter

Schwann.Sir C.E. (Manchester

Haworth, Arthur A.

Micklem, Nathaniel

Scott,A.H.(Ashton under Lyne

Hazel, Dr. A. E.

Molteno, Percy Alport

Scars, J. E.

Helme, Norval Watson

Money, L. G. Chiozza

Seely, Major J. B.

Hemmerde,Edward George

Montagu, E. S.

Shackleton, David James

Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

Mooney, J. J.

Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)

Henry, Charles S.

Morgan, G. Hay (Cornwall)

Shaw, Rt. Hon. T. (Hawick B.

Herbert, Col. Ivor (Mon., S.)

Morgan, J. Lloyd(Carmarthen)

Shipman, Dr. John G.

Hobart, Sir Robert

Morley, Rt. Hon. John

Sinclair, Rt. Hon. John

Hodge, John

Morrell, Philip

Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie

Hogan, Michael

Morse, L. L.

Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.

Holden, E. Hopkinson

Morton, Alpheus Clcophas

Snowden, P.

Holland, Sir William Henry

Murnaghan, George

Soames, Arthur Wellesley

Hooper, A. G.

Murphy, John

Soares, Ernest J.

Horniman, Emslie John

Murray, James

Spicer, Sir Albert

Horridge, Thomas Gardner

Nannetti, Joseph P.

Stanger, H. Y.

Howard, Hon. Geoffrey

Napier, T. B.

Stanley,Hn.A.Lyulph (Chesh.)

Hudson, Walter

Newnes, Sir George (Swansea)

Steadman. W. C.

Hutton, Alfred Eddison

Nicholls, George

Stewart, Halley (Greenock)

Hyde, Clarendon

Nicholson, Charles N. (Donc'r

Stewart-Smith, D. (Kendal)

Idris, T. H. W.

Nolan, Joseph

Strachey, Sir Edward

Illingworth, Percy H.

Norton, Capt. Cecil William

Straus, B. S. (Mile End)

Isaacs, Rufus Daniel

Nussey, Thomas Willans

Stuart. James (Sundcrland,

Jardine, Sir J.

Nuttall, Harry

Sullivan, Donal

Jenkins, J.

O'Brien,Kendal (TipperaryMid

Summerbell, T.

Jones.Sir D. Brymnor(Swansea

O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth.)

Jones, Leif (Appleby)

O'Connor, James (Wicklow.W.

Taylor, John W. (Durham)

Jones, William (Carnarvonsh.

O'Doherty, Philip

Taylor, Theodore C. (Radeliffe)

Jowett, F. W.

O'Grady, J.

Tennant, H. J. (Berwickshire)

Joyce, Michael

O'Kelly,James (Roscommon.N

Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.

1172

1173

Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan,E.

Wardle. George J.

Williams, Llewelyn (Carm'th'n

Thomas, David Alfred(Merthyr

Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.

Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)

Thorne, William

Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan

Williamson. A.

Tomkinson, James

Wason,John Cathcart (Orkney

Wilson, Henry J. (York, W.R.

Torrance, Sir A. M.

Waterlow, D. S.

Wilson,J.W. (Worcestersh. N.

Toulmin, George

Watt, H. Anderson

Wilson, P. W. (St. Pancras, S.

Trevelyan, Charles Philips

Wedgwood, Josiah C.

Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)

Ure, Alexander

Weir, James Galloway

Winfrey, R.

Vivian, Henry

White, George (Norfolk)

Wodehouse,Lord (Norfolk,Mid.

Wads worth, J.

White, J. D. (Dumbartonshire)

Wood, T. M'Kinnon

Waldron, Laurence Ambrose

While, Luke (York. E. R.)

Woodhouse.SirJ.T. (H'd'rsf'd)

Walker, H. De R. (Leicester)

White. Patrick (Meath, North)

Young, Samuel

Wallace, Robert

Whilehead, Rowland

Yoxall, James Henry

Walsh, Stephen

Whitley, J. H (Halifax)

Walters, John Tudor

Whittaker, Sir Thomas Palmer

TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr.

Walton,Sir John L. (Leeds, S.)

Wiles, Thomas

Whiteley and Mr. J. A.

Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

Wilkie, Alexander

Pease.

Ward, John (Stoke upon Trent

Williams, J. (Glamorgan)

NOES.

Acland-Hood,Rt.Hn.SirAlexF.

Dalrymple, Viscount

Parker, Sir Gilbert (Gravesend

Anstruther-Gray, Major

Dixon-Hartland.Sir FredDixon

Parkes, Ebenezer

Arkwright, John Stanhope

Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

Percy, Earl

Ashley, W. W.

Dncan. Robert (Lanark.G'v'n

Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

Balcarres, Lord

Fell, Arthur

Randles, Sir John Scurrah

Baldwin. Alfred

Finch. Rt. Hon. George H.

Ratcliffe. Major R. F.

Balfour,Rt.Hn.A.J.(CityLond.

Fletcher, J. S.

Rawlinson, John FrederickPeel

Banbury, Sir Frederick George

Forster, Henry William

Remnant. James Farquharson

Banner, John S. Harmood-

Gibbs, G. A. (Bristol, West)

Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall

Barrie. H. T. (Londonderry, N.

Hambro, Charles Erie

Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert

Beach,Hn.Michael Hugh Hicks

Hamilton, Marquess of

Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool

Beckett, Hon. Gervase

Hardy,Laurence (Kent, Ashf'd

Salter, Arthur Clavell

Bignold, Sir Arthur

Harrison-Broadley, Col. H. B.

Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert

Bowles. G. Stewart

Hay. Hon. Claude George

Smith, F. E. (Liverpool,Walton

Boyle, Sir Edward

Hill, Sir Clement (Shrewsbury

Starkey, John R.

Bridgeman, W. Clive

Kennaway,Rt.Hon.Sir Jolin H.

Staveley-Hill, Henry (Staff'sh.

Bull, Sir William James

Kimber, Sir Henry

Stone, Sir Benjamin

Carlile, E. Hildred

Lane-Fox, G. R.

Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

Carson. Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

Liddell, Henry

Turnour, Viscount

Castlereagh. Viscount

Lockwood,Rt.Hn.Lt.-Col.A.R.

Valentia, Viscount

Cave, George

Long, Col.Charles W. (Evesh'm

Vincent, Col. Sir C. E. Howard

Cavendish,Rt.Hn. Victor C. W.

Lonsdale, John Brownlee

Walker, Col. W. H. (Lancashire

Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred

Wilson, A. Stanley (York.E.R.

Cecil, Lord R. (Marylebone, E.

Magnus, Sir Philip

Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm

Chamberlain,Rt.Hn.J.A. (Wor.

Marks, H. H. (Kent)

Younger, George

Coates, E. Feetham (Lewisham

Meysey-Thompson, E. C.

Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

Mildmay, Francis Bingham

TELLERS FOR THE NOES—

Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)

Morpeth, Viscount

Sir Henry Craik and Mr.

Craig,Charles Curtis (Antrim,S.

Nicholson, Wm. G. (Petersfield

Mitchell-Thomson.

Craig, Captain James(Down,E.

Nield, Herbert

MR. PIKE PEASE MR. PIKE PEASE(Darlington) moved a new clause to provide that no existing vote with a plural qualification should be affected by the Bill. He said it was clear that in the United Kingdom all those persons who had more than one vote would, in the future, not be able to exercise them. When the right hon. Gentleman introduced this measure he said that its value was in inverse ratio to its size. After listening to the interesting debates which had taken place he thought hon. Members would agree that there were many points of difficulty in the Bill which the Government had not realised when they framed
1174
it, which gave a maximum of inconvenience, and only a minimum of benefit. In the case of former measures of this kind it had always been stated—and Mr. Gladstone was very strong on this point—that they should not disfranchise voters who had voters under any circumstances whatever. He would like to point out that it was not unreasonable that those in the country who had votes for University candidates should continue to have them. But this Bill struck a great blow at University representation, and although it did not mean that University representation would cease to exist, nevertheless it was perfectly plain that if the

1175
Bill was passed in its present form it was not likely that University representation would continue. Another point he would like to draw attention to was with regard to the depletion which would take place amongst the rural voters. In many rural constituencies there would be a very large depletion, because they contained a much smaller average number of voters, and as there were a considerable number of plural voters, the total remaining would be exceedingly small and this would make the position very anomalous. It seemed to him that there were many ways in which this question could be dealt with in a more simple manner than the one now proposed. It had always been put forward by the Liberal Party that this question should be dealt with in such a manner that it would work automatically and simply, but he thought the Committee would agree with him that this measure was not at all a simple one. If, at the present time, the city of Birmingham was given representation on the same scale as Kilkenny there would be fifty-eight Members for Birmingham. A very large number of those who now possessed two or three votes appreciated the continuance of those votes, and he was sure there would be very little hardship to those who might become new plural voters. He hoped the right hon. Gentleman would favourably consider his Amendment.
New clause—
"Nothing in this Act shall deprive any person (who at the date of the passing of this Act is registered in respect of any qualification to vote for any county or borough) of his right to be from time to time registered and to vote for such county or borough in respect of such qualifications in like manner as if this Act had not passed."—(Mr. Pike Pease.)
Brought up, and read the first time.
Motion made, and Question put, "That the clause be read a second time."
The FIRST COMMISSIONER OF WORKS (Mr. HARCOURT,)pointed out that this was not a franchise Bill, When they were extending the franchise and altering the qualification it had always been usual and natural to have a saving clause of this kind. If the clause which had been proposed were inserted they
1176
would not get the Act in operation for a generation to come. Even if the clause were a desirable one he would ask hon. Members opposite to think what machinery would be required under it. The register would have to contain two classes of voters throughout, one class qualified for a plural vote before to-day and another class that had not qualified. It was quite impossible to put such a provision into this measure, for its insertion would make the Bill worthless.
MR. AKERS-DOUGLASsaid he could not agree with the contention put forward by the right hon. Gentleman. He had said that this was not a franchise Bill and he had also disclaimed that it was a disfranchising Bill. His opinion was that precedents ought to be adhered to in this matter. He would remind the Committee that even at the present time there were "faggot" voters on the register who voted notwithstanding the Act of 1884, and they had been allowed to continue on the register until their death. It had already been pointed out that statesmen belonging to the Party opposite in introducing former Bills had made a great boast of the fact that no class of voter was disfranchised, and that was the view put forward by Mr. Gladstone in 1884, for he then stated that the Bill he introduced dispossessed no single man of his existing right. The Bill introduced by Mr. Gladstone abolished the £50 rental franchise, and Mr. Gladstone pointed out then that hardly any man would be injured by the proposal he was making, because he considered it hardly possible that there would be any man entitled to this franchise who would not come within the county franchise he set up in future. So careful was Mr. Gladstone not to interfere with existing rights. If this was a disfranchising Bill they could understand the position taken up by the Government, but the right hon. Gentleman in charge of the Bill had told them throughout that it was not a disfranchising Bill. That being so, he thought the Government ought to follow the precedents he had pointed out, and save the rights of the existing voters.
*MR. MEYSEY-THOMPSONsaid this new clause seemed to him so eminently reasonable and fair that he thought it would not be necessary for him to say many words in support

1177
of it. It struck him with astonishment that the Government should propose to alter the register at all. Surely they, of all people, ought to be satisfied with the result of the last general election. If they were satisfied it seemed to him that they were turning round and biting the hand that fed them. He went further and said that this was a sort of political patricide, for the Government were attacking the very register which had brought them into being. In this connection the Committee would doubtless all remember the immortal words of Shakspeare—
"How Sharper than a serpent's tooth it is To have ft thankless child."
and since the right hon. Gentleman the First Commissioner of Works was a personal friend of his own, he should be sorry to see him handed down to posterity as a thankless child with a serpent's tooth. It seemed to him that during the course of these debates they had lost sight of the point which was really the most important, namely, to get into this House the very best representatives they could possibly obtain. He was reminded in this connection of a discussion that took place some years ago in a sporting paper as to what was the best bit to put on a horse. Those who took part in the discussion gave so much attention to the question of which bit the horses might be supposed to prefer that they lost sight of the fact that what was really wanted was the best bit with which to guide and control the horse. It seemed to him that in discussing the question of the franchise they had lost sight of the fact that what they wanted to get was the election of the best representatives to this House, and he thought that the Government could hardly quarrel with the choice of representatives which had been made at the last general election, oven after the hard things which had been said of the harmless necessary University Members. He would appeal to the Government to allow the new clause to be inserted and preserve to those who had at present plural qualifications the rights which they possessed. It was quite a different thing to handicap a man before a race and to trip him up during a race. He would remind the Committee that an exemption was made by Mr. Gladstone himself in 1884 by which the votes of faggot
1178
voters were expressly preserved to those who already had them, while the creation of further faggot voters was prevented.
VISCOUNT TURNOURhoped the right hon. Gentleman in charge of the Bill would give more consideration to the new proposal than he had given to other proposals. Under the Bill the Government proposed immediately to take away from a man what he had hitherto possessed. The plural voter was to be legally robbed of what he had hitherto possessed, and, if in the course of that legal robbery he did not carry out all the restrictions imposed upon him by this Bill, he was to be heavily penalised. Since the days of the Plantagenet kings of England there had been no greater case of legalisod robbery than there would be under this Bill.
MR. FELLsaid that a proposal which would have the effect of bringing gradually into operation an Act which made such enormous changes was certainly deserving of support. He would just quote one example of the changes it would make. The industrious man who had saved and who had bought a little piece of land in a constituency other than that on which he resided had obtained a second vote. He had a bit of pride in the fact that he had another vote. It was an honest pride which a working man or anyone might possess, and he ought to be encouraged in it and not penalised for it. It had been so in the past. A man had bought a piece of land with the knowledge that he would get a vote in another constituency. In the future this privilege was to be taken away from him. By the proposed new clause, however, a man buying a piece of land in another constituency would know perfectly well that he would not get another vote for it. That was perfectly straightforward, and in the future it would be perfectly right. The attraction of a second vote might have been an inducement to a man to save and buy a piece of land in another constituency, but in the future he would know perfectly well that he would get no second vote. He thought that was a consideration which should weigh with the Committee. He considered that voters should not be either penalised or lose what they had in the way proposed by the Bill, but that they should be allowed

1179
to retain what they had saved their money to get. If the proposed new clause were not accepted, working men who had been industrious and had saved and bought some small property in a second constituency would be deprived of that electoral privilege they had earned.
SIR FREDERICK BANBURYsaid if the right hon. Gentleman accepted this Amendment he would make a very great difference to the City of London. That remark had been received with cheers by hon. Members on the Benches below the gangway, but he did not know that they quite realised what the position of the City of London would be under the Bill. There were 30,000 electors in the City of London, and he believed he was right in saying that of these only 5,000 would be able to exercise the vote. [MINISTERIAL cheers.] That cheer threw considerable doubt on the statement of the right hon. Gentleman that this was not a disfranchising Bill. If the Bill reduced the electors of the City of London from 30,000 to 5,000, was it not a disfranchising Bill? His intervention in the debate had brought out the fact that this was a disfranchising Bill. He assumed that the electors of the City of London who had plural votes would choose other places in which to record them. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for the St. Augustine's division of Kent had shown that the Liberal Party in disqualifying persons who were already in possession of the vote were going against a principle on which the late Mr. Gladstone acted in dealing with alterations in the franchise. It was a little early in the day for the Radical Party to bring in a
Reform Bill. Hitherto when the Radical Party had been in office, except in 1892, they had brought in Reform Bills towards the end of the Parliament. He presumed that was because they were aware that they had so dissatisfied the country that they thought they must do something to add new electors. This time they proposed to cut off the register voters who were already on it. He trusted that in order to save themselves from such an imputation the Government would accept the now clause.
MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAINsaid he was rather surprised that this Amendment had not met with amore sympathetic reception from the Liberal Party. Plural voting had been advocated in the interest of that Party. Up to the time of the last extension of the franchise Liberal organisers had habitually urged members of the Liberal Party to pay forty shillings for a freehold in order that they might have a chance of ousting the Conservative representative. He himself possessed one of these qualifications, which was acquired under the active stimulus and advice of the Liberal agent. The hon. Member for the Handsworth division had said that the Liberal Party had been guilty of something like patricide in bringing forward this Bill, but considering the way in which Mr. Cobden had dealt with the matter he hoped that they would show more mercy to the pluralists of the Liberal Party and not be guilty of political infanticide.
Question put.
The Committee divided:—Ayes, 87; Noes, 360. (Division List No. 309.)

AYES.

Anstruther-Gray, Major

Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

Finch, Rt. hon. George H.

Arkwright, John Stanhope

Castlereagh, Viscount

Fletcher, J. S.

Ashley, W. W.

Cave, George

Forster, Henry William

Balcarres, Lord

Cavendish.Rt.Hn. Victor C.

Gibbs, G. A. (Bristol, West)

Baldwin, Alfred

Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

Haddock, George R.

Balfour,Rt.Hn.A.J.(City Lond.

Cecil, Lord R. (Marylebone.E.

Hambro, Charles Erie

Banbury, Sir Frederick George

Chamberlain, Rt.Hn.J.A.(Wor.

Hamilton, Marquess of

Banner, John, S. Harmood-

Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

Hardy, Laurence (Kent.Ashf'd

Barrie, H. T. (Londonderry, N.

Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)

Harrison-Broadley. Col. H. B.

Beach,Hn.Michael Hugh Hicks

Craig,Charles Curtis (Antrim,S.

Hay, Hon. Claude George

Beckett, Hon. Gervase

Craig,Captain James (Down,E.

Hill.Sir Clement (Shrewsbury)

Bignold, Sir Arthur

Craik, Sir Henry

Hills, J. W.

Bridgeman, W. Clive

Dalrymple, Viscount

Houston, Robert Paterson

Bull, Sir William James

Dixon-Hartland,Sir FredDixon

Kennaway.Rt. Hn. Sir John H.

Butcher, Samuel Henry

Douglas,Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

Kimber, Sir Henry

Carlile, E. Hildred

Fell, Arthur

Lambton, Hon. Frederick Win-

Lane-Fox, G. R.

Percy, Earl

Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

Liddell, Henry

Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

Thomson, W.Mitchell-(Lanark

Lockwood, Rt.Hn.Lt.-Col.A.R.

Randles, Sir John Scurrah

Turnour, Viscount

Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred

Rateliffe, Major R. F.

Vincent, Col. Sir C. E. Howard

M'Calmont, Colonel James

Rawlinson,John Frederick Peel

Walker.Col.W.H. (Lancashire)

Magnus, Sir Philip

Remnant, James Farquharson

Wilson,A.Stanley (York, E. R.

Marks, H. H. (Kent)

Roberts,S.(Sheftield, Ecclesall

Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm

Meysey-Thompson, E. C.

Ropnor, Colonel Sir Robert

Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B.Stuart-

Mildmay, Francis Bingham

Salter, Arthur Clavell

Younger, George

Morpeth, Viscount

Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert

Nicholson,Wm. G. (Petcrsfield)

Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Sir

Nield, Herbert

Smith, F.E. (Liverpool, Walton

Alexander Acland-Hood and

Parker, Sir Gilbert (Gravesend

Starkey, John R.

Viscount Valentia.

Parkes, Ebenezer

Staveley-Hill, Henry (Staff'sh.

Pease.Herbert Pike (Darlingt'n

Stone, Sir Benjamin

NOES.

Abraham, William (Cork,N. E.

Cairns, Thomas

Fenwick, Charles

Abraham, William (Rhondda)

Cameron, Robert

Ferguson, R. C. Munro

Acland, Francis Dyke.

Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.

Fiennes, Hon. Eustace

Adkins, W. Ryland D.

Carr-Gomm, H. W.

Flynn, James Christopher

Ainsworth, John Stirling

Causton,Rt. Hn.RichardKnight

Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

Alden, Percy

Cawley, Frederick

Freeman-Thomas, Freeman

Allen,A.Acland (Christchurch)

Chance, Frederick William

Fuller, John Michael F.

Allen, Charles P. (Stroud)

Cheetham, John Frederick

Fullerton, Hugh

Ashton, Thomas Gair

Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R.

Gibb, James (Harrow)

Asquith,Rt.Hn.Herbert Henry

Churchill, Winston Spencer

Gill, A. H.

Astbury, John Meir

Clarke, C. Goddard

Ginnell, L.

Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth)

Cleland, J. W.

Gladstone, Rt.Hn.HerbertJohn

Baker, Joseph A. (Finsbury.E.

Clough, W.

Glover, Thomas

Baring,Godfrey (Isle of Wight)

Clynes, J. R.

Goddard, Daniel Ford

Barker, John

Coats, Sir T.Glen (Renfrew,W.)

Gooch, George Peabody

Barlow,John Emmott (S'm'rs't

Cobbold, Felix Thornley

Greenwood, G. (Peterborough)

Barlow, Percy (Bedford)

Collins, SirWm.J.(S.Pancras.W

Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward

Barnard, E. B.

Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow)

Gulland, John W.

Barnes, G. N.

Corbett,C.H.(Sussex,E.Grinst'd

Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

Beale, W. P.

Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.

Haldane, Rt. Hon. Richard B.

Beauchamp, E.

Cotton, Sir H. J. S

Hall, Frederick

Beanmont,Hn.W.C.B.(Hexh'm

Cowan, W. H.

Harcourt, Right Hon. Lewis

Beck, A. Cecil

Cox, Harold

Hardie, J. Keir (MerthyrTydvil

Bell, Richard

Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth)

Hardy, George A. (Suffolk)

Bellairs, Carlyon

Cremer, William Randal

Harmsworth, Cecil B. (Wore'r)

Benn.Sir J.Williams (D'v'np'rt

Crosfield, A. H.

Hart-Davies, T.

Benn,W.(T'w'r H'ml'ts,S. Geo.

Dalmeny, Lord

Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale

Bertram, Julius

Dalziel, lames Henry

Harwood, George

Bethell, J. H. (Essex, Romford

Davies, Ellis William (Eifion)

Haslam, James (Derbyshire

Bethell, T. R. (Essex, Maldon)

Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardigan

Haslam, Lewis (Honmouth)

Billson, Alfred

Davies, Timothy (Fulham)

Haworth, Arthur A.

Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine

Davies, W. Howell (Bristol, S.)

Hazel, Dr. A. E.

Black,Arthur W. (Bedfordsh.

Delany, William

Helme, Norval Waston

Bolton,T.D. (Derbyshire, N.E

Dewar, Arthur (Edinburgh, S.)

Hemmerde, Edward George

Boulton, A. C. V. (Ramsey)

Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh.)

Henderson, Arthur Durham)

Bowerman, C. W.

Dickinson, W. H. (St.Pancras

Henry, Charles S.

Brace, William

Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.

Herbert, Col. Ivor (Mon., S.)

Bramsdon, T. A.

Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

Hobart, Sir Robert

Branch, James

Donelan, Captain A.

Hobhouse, Charles E. H.

Brigg, John

Duckworth, James

Hodge, John

Bright, J. A.

Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness

Hogan, Michael

Broeklehurst, W. B.

Duncan, J. H. (York, Otley)

Holden, E. Hopkinson

Brodie, H. C

Dunn, A. Edward (Camborne)

Hooper, A. G.

Brooke, Stopford

Dunne, MajorE.Martin(Walsall

Horniman, Emslie John

Brunner, J.F.L. (Lanes., Leigh

Edwards, Clement (Denbigh)

Horridge, Thomas Gardner

Brunner, Rt.HnSirJ,T.(Chesh.)

Edwards, Enoch (Hanley)

Howard, Hon. Geoffrey

Bryce, Rt.Hn.James-Aberdeen

Edwards, Frank (Radnor)

Hudson, Walter

Bryce, J. A. (Inverness Burghs)

Elibank, Master of

Hyde, Clarendon

Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn

Ellis, Rt. Hon. John Edward

Illingworth, Percy H.

Burke, K. Haviland-

Erskine, David C

Isaacs, Rufus Daniel

Burns, Rt. Hon. John

Esmonde, Sir Thomas

Jardine, Sir J.

Burnyeat, W. J. D.

Eve, Harry Trelawney

Jenkins, J.

Buxton, Rt.Hn.Sydney Chas.

Everett, R. Lacey

Jones, Sir D.Brynmor(Swansea

Byles, William Pollard

Faber, G. H. (Boston)

Jones, Leif (Appleby)

1182

1183

Jones, William (Carnarvonshire

Nuttall, Harry

Stewart, Halley (Greenock)

Jowett, F. W.

O'Brien, Kendal(TipperaryMid

Stewart-Smith, D. (Kendal)

Joyce, Michael

O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

Strachey, Sir Edward

Kearley, Hudson E.

O'Connor, James(Wicklow,W.)

Straus, B. S. (Mile End)

Kekewich, Sir George

O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)

Strauss, E. A. (Abingdon

Kelley, George D.

O'Grady, J.

Stuart, James (Sunderland

Kennedy, Vincent Paul

O'Kelly, Jas. (Roscommon, N.)

Sullivan, Donal

Kincaid-Smith, Captain

O'Malley, William

Summerbell, T.

King, Alfred John (Knutsford)

O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth)

Kitson, Rt. Hon. Sir James

Parker, James (Halifax)

Taylor, John W. (Durham)

Laidlaw, Robert

Partington, Oswald

Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)

Lamb, Edmund G. (Leominster

Paul, Herbert

Tennant, H. J. (Berwickshire)

Lamb, Ernest H. (Rochester)

Pearce, Robert (Staffs. Leek)

Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.)

Lambert, George

Pearce, William (Limehouse)

Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.)

Lamont, Norman

Perks, Robert William

Thomas, DavidAlfred(Merthyr

Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, W.)

Philipps, J.Wynford(Pembroke

Tomkinson, James

Layland-Barratt, Francis

Philipps, Owen C. (Pembroke)

Torrance, Sir A. M.

Leese, SirJosephF.(Accrington)

Pickersgill, Edward Hare

Toulmin, George

Lehmann, R. C.

Pirie, Duncan V.

Trevelyan, Charles Philips

Lever,A.Levy(Essex, Harwich)

Pollard, Dr.

Ure, Alexander

Lever, W.H.(Cheshire, Wirral)

Price, C. E.(Edinburgh,Central)

Verney, F, W.

Levy, Maurice

Price, RobertJohn (Norfolk.E.)

Vivian, Henry

Lewis, John Herbert

Rainy, A. Rolland

Wadsworth, J.

Lough, Thomas

Raphael, Herbert

Waldron, Laurence Ambrose

Lundon, W.

Rea, Russell (Gloucester)

Walker, H. De R. (Leicester)

Macdonald, J.M.(Falkirk B'ghs

Rea, Walter Russell(Scarboro')

Wallace, Robert

Mackarness, Frederic C.

Redmond, John E. (Waterford)

Walsh, Stephen

Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.

Redmond, William (Clare)

Walters, John Tudor

MacVeagh, Jeremiah (Down, S.

Rees, J. D.

Walton, Sir John L. (Leeds, S.)

MacVeigh, Chas. (Donegal, E.)

Rendall, Athelstan

Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

M'Callum, John M.

Renton, Major Leslie

Ward, John (Stoke upon Trent)

M'Crae, George

Richards, Thos. (W. Monm'th)

Wardle, George J.

M'Kean, John

Richards, T. F.(Wolverh'mpt'n

Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.

M'Kenna, Reginald

Richardson, A.

Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan)

M'Killop, W.

Ridsdale, E. A.

Wason, John Cathcart(Orkney)

M'Laren, H. D. (Stafford, W.)

Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)

Waterlow, D. S.

M'Micking, Major G.

Roberts, G. H. (Norwich)

Watt, H. Anderson

Maddison, Frederick

Robertson, Rt. Hn. E. (Dundee

Wedgwood, Josiah C.

Manfield, Harry (Northants)

Robertson, SirG.Soctt(Bradf'rd

Weir, James Galloway

Marnham, F. J.

Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside)

White, J. D. (Dumbartonshire)

Mason, A. E. W. (Coventry)

Robinson, S.

White, Luke (York, E. R.)

Massie, J.

Robson, Sir William Snowdon

White, Patrick (Meath, North)

Masterman, C. F. G.

Roe, Sir Thomas

Whitehead, Rowland

Meagher, Michael

Rogers, F. E. Newman

Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

Menzies, Walter

Rowlands, J.

Whittaker, Sir Thomas Palmer

Micklem, Nathaniel

Runciman, Walter

Wles, Thomas

Molteno, Percy Alport

Rutherford, V. H. (Brentford)

Wilkie, Alexander

Money, L. G. Chiozza

Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool)

Williams, J. (Glamorgan)

Montagu, E. S.

Samuel, HerbertL.(Cleveland)

Williams, Llewelyn(Carmarth'n

Mooney, J. J.

Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel)

Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)

Morgan, G. Hay (Cornwall)

Schwann, Sir C. E.(Manchester)

Williamson. A.

Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen)

Scott, A.H.(Ashton under Lyne

Wilson, Hn. C.H.W. (Hull, W.)

Morrell, Philip

Sears, J. E.

Wilson, Henry J. (York, W.R.)

Morse, L. L.

Seely, Major J. B.

Wilson, J. H. (Middlesbrough)

Morton, Alpheus Cleophas

Shackleton, David James

Wilson, J.W.(Worcestersh. N.)

Murnaghan, George

Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)

Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)

Murphy, John

Shaw, Rt. Hon. T. (Hawick, H.)

Winfrey, R.

Murray, James

Shipman, Dr. John G.

Wodehouse, Lord(Norfolk,Mid

Myer, Horatio

Sinclair, Rt. Hon. John

Wood, T. M'Kinnon

Nannetti, Joseph P.

Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie

Woodhouse, SirJ.T.(H'ddersf d

Napier, T. B.

Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.)

Young, Samuel

Newnes, Sir George

Snowdon, P.

Yoxall, James Kenry

Newnes, Sir George (Swansea)

Soames, Arthur Wellesley

Nicholls, George

Soares, Ernest J.

TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr.

Nicholson, Chas. N. (Doncast'r

Spicer, Sir Albert

Whiteley and Mr. J. A.

Nolan, Joseph

Stanger, H. Y.

Pease.

Norton, Capt. Cecil William

Stanley, Hn.A.Lyulph(Chesh.)

Nussey, Thomas Willans

Steadman, W. C.

MR. NIELDhad the following Amendment on the Paper. "So much of the twenty-seventh and
1184
thirty second sections of The Representation of the People Act, 1832, and of section forty-six of The Repre-

1185
sentation of the People Act, 1867, as relates to the residence of electors within seven miles of any city or borough, or twenty-five miles in the case of the City of London, be repealed."
The CHAIRMANsaid that the provisions of the Acts mentioned in the proposed Amendment were outside the scope of this Bill, and therefore the proposed new clause was out of order.
MR. NIELDsaid that he proposed to put in words limiting the proposed repeal to persons who had to select a constituency under Clause 1.
The CHAIRMANsaid that if the hon. Member had anything fresh to put before the Committee he should bring up a new clause.
*MR. H. H. MARKS*MR. H. H. MARKS moved the following new clause—
"No proceedings shall be taken under this Act except on the fiat of the Attorney-General."
The hon. Member said that the right hon. Gentleman in charge of the Bill had repeated that evening a striking and original definition which he had given of that measure as a machinery Bill. Happily, in these days, they were in the habit of providing guards to their machinery, in order that those employed on and around it should not be in danger from it. If there was machinery which was calculated to do great injury, it was the machinery of this Bill, and his proposal was to surround it with such effective guards as would reduce that danger to the smallest possible dimensions. The Bill, as it stood, if passed into law, would revolutionise our electoral law, not only in times of elections but in times preceding them. It would also revolutionise and disorganise the registration work of every Party in the State, and it was not difficult to conceive—indeed it was reasonable to anticipate—that this measure would be used by violent political partisans, not only to the detriment of their opponents, but to the detriment of political liberty. Nothing would be simpler than under this Bill to trump up a charge of personation against anybody. A political candidate, suffering under the smart of defeat, would find in this measure the means of wreaking vengeance upon those at whose hands he
1186
had suffered defeat. The right hon. Gentleman had undertaken in respect of some minor matters to insert safeguards against this abuse of the Bill, and he thought it was not unreasonable to ask that he should accept the safeguards which he offered by this clause. This Bill, as it stood, would put a most mischievous power in the hands of individuals to wreak political vengeance, and was calculated to entail consequences of a far-reaching character which even its authors would regret. There was no reason why the Attorney-General should not pass an opinion upon the case before the Act was put into force. He had some hope that the right hon. Gentleman would be disposed to regard this new clause with favour, and he himself heartily commended it to the Committee.
New clause—
"No proceedings shall be taken under this Act except on the fiat of the Attorney-General."—(Mr. H. H. Marks.)
Brought up, and read the first time.
Motion made and question proposed, "That the clause be read a second time."
MR. HARCOURTsaid he was quite prepared to accept a clause couched in somewhat similar words to this, in order to give an assurance or even greater assurance to people that there would be no room for malevolence in regard to the proceedings under the Act. He thought, however, that the words used should be a little fuller than those in the clause now proposed, and that it should provide that in the absence of the Attorney-General the Solicitor-General should come in. He believed there was some well known form in regard to a matter of this kind which he was prepared to accept.
SIR E. CARSONsaid he thought the form which the right hon. Gentleman had in his mind included the Attorney-General and the Solicitor-General in Ireland, and the Solicitor General in Scotland.
MR. HARCOURTsaid that that was what he meant.
MR. MACVEAGHwished to know whether the right hon. Gentleman had fully considered the effect of

1187
this new clause. It provided that no proceedings should be taken under the Act except on the fiat of the Attorney-General. That might leave a person aggrieved without a remedy.
MR. HARCOURTsaid he was sure that the hon. Member opposite understood what he meant when he accepted the Amendment. What he meant was that there should be no proceeding or prosecution instituted from malevolent motives by a private person. He could accept the principle of the clause, but he would bring up an Amendment upon Report.
Proposed new clause, by leave, withdrawn.
MR. HARMOOD-BANNER MR. HARMOOD-BANNER(Liverpool, Everton) moved the following now clause: "A Parliamentary voter may withdraw any selection made by him on giving notice to the clerk of the county council or town clerk having charge of the registers in which such selection was operative on or before the thirty-first day of August in any year." He hoped the right hon. Gentleman in charge of the Bill would accept this Amendment, because he thought that a voter ought to have as many opportunities as were reasonable for giving his selection. The clause which he was moving gave a Parliamentary voter the right to withdraw any selection made by him by notice to the clerk of the county council or to the town clerk before the 31st of August, and it seemed to him reasonable that if a man had sent in a selection by the 1st of January, and if circumstances occurred under which it seemed to him right for him to change his place of selection he should not be tied and bound by the selection which he had made.
New clause—
"A parliamentary voter may withdraw any selection made by him on giving notice to the clerk of the county council or town clerk having charge of the registers in which such selection was operative on or before the thirty-first day of August in any year."—(Mr. Harmood Banner..)
Brought up, and read the first time.
Motion made and question proposed, "That the clause be road a second time."
MR. HARCOURTsaid the clause would not do in the form in which it was moved, but he had already promised that there should be a power inserted in the Bill for a voter to withdraw his selection.
SIR E. CARSONsaid that if the right hon. Gentleman was going to consider this matter, he would point out that the reason why the date of the 31st August was selected was that the notice of selection as matters at present stood must be given before the 1st September.
MR. HARCOURTsaid the date was the 5th September.
SIR E. CARSONsaid they had bettor make every allowance possible.
MR. WILLIAM RUTHERFORDsaid he understood that according to the Government plan the notice of selection must be sent in prior to the 5th September, but there was no provision fixing the date at which it should be sent in. If a man sent in a notice on the 5th September it would operate, as he understood it, during the following year. The effect of the Bill ought to be that a voter was not restricted to the last week or fortnight, and it was clear that it would only be reasonable that at any time before the 5th September he should be able to withdraw and send in another notice. If that was what the right hon. Gentleman meant to bring about he thought they would all agree that this clause might be withdrawn.
The CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER (Mr. ASQUITH,)said in substance that was what his right hon. friend had stated, but he did not wish at the present moment to tie himself to a date.
*MR. CAVEsaid he wanted to know exactly what the concession meant. Supposing an elector changed his residence in the course of the year for which a selection had been made, his hon. friend desired that he should be at liberty to withdraw his existing selection and put in a new one for that year. He did not quite see how the right hon. Gentleman met the Amendment, if he was merely going to put in power to withdraw. That would not mean power to withdraw for the current year. It would merely

1189
mean that a voter would have power before the month of September in any year to make a satisfied selection for the next ensuing year.
MR. HARCOURT: That is what we mean.
SIR FREDERICK BANBURYasked what objection there was to accepting this clause now. The right hon. Gentleman could go into Committee on the clause now, but if on the other hand the clause was withdrawn it was quite possible that when they reached the Report stage they would have forgotten what had taken place. He had attended the debate every day, and the right hon. Gentleman had given innumerable pledges which he (Sir Frederick Banbury) had forgotten. They would therefore on the Report stage have to look these pledges up. He did not see any objection whatever to the right hon.
Gentleman accepting this clause, and, if he desired to do so, amending it on the Report stage.
MR. HARCOURTsaid it was quite impossible to accept the clause in its present form, and the hon. Baronet might be sure that he had taken a note of all the promises he had made and that his memory would serve him in regard to them. He would take care that all his promises were carried out.
Question put.
MR. HARMOOD-BANNERsaid that after the explanation which had been given he would like to withdraw.
The CHAIRMANsaid it was too late to withdraw.
The Committee divided:—Ayes, 69; Noes, 343. (Division List No. 360.)

AYES.

Aeland-Hood, Rt, Hn.SirAlex.F

Foil, Arthur

Percy, Earl

Arkwright, John Stanhope

Finch, Rt. Hon. George H.

Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

Balcarres, Lord

Fletcher, J. S.

Randles, Sir John Scurrah

Baldwin, Alfred

Forster, Henry William

Ratcliff, Major R. F.

Banbury, Sir Frederick George

Gibbs, G. A. (Bristol, West)

Rawlinson,John Frederick Peel

Barrie, H.T. (Londonderry, N.)

Haddock, George R.

Remnant, James Farquharson

Beach, Hn. Michael Hughs.Hicks

Hambro, Charles Eric

Roberts, S.(Sheffield, Eeclesall)

Beckett, Hon. Gervase

Hamilton, Marquess of

Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert

Bignold, Sir Arthur

Hardy, Laurence(Kent,Ashford

Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool)

Bridgeman, W. Clive

Harrison-Broadley, Col. H. B.

Salter, Arthur Clavell

Bull, Sir William James

Hay. Hon. Claude George

Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert

Burdett-Coutts, W.

Hill, Sir Clement (Shrewsbury

Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

Butcher, Samuel Henry

Houston, Robert Paterson

Starkey. John R.

Carlile, E. Hildred

Kennaway, Rt.Hn.Sir John H.

Staveley-Hill, Henry (Staff'sh.)

Castlereagh, Viscount

Kimber, Sir Henry

Stone. Sir Benjamin

Cavendish, Rt. Hn. Victor C. W.

Lane-Fox, G. R.

Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

Cecil, Evelyn (Anton Manor)

M'Calmont. Colonel James

Thomson, W. Mitchell-(Lanark

Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

Meysey-Thompson, E. C.

Turnour, Viscount

Collings, Rt.Hn.J.(Birmingh'm

Mildmay, Francis Bingham

Valentia, Viscount

Craig, Capt. James (Down, E

Morpeth, Viscount

Walker, Col. W.H.(Laneashire)

Dalrymple, Viscount

Nicholson, Win. G. (Petersfield

Younger, George

Dixon-Hartland, SirFrcdDixon

Nield, Herbert

Doughty, Sir George

Parkes, Ebenezer

TELLERS FOB THE AYES—Air.

Douglas. Rt. Hon. A. Akers.

Pease, Herbert, Pike(Darlington

Ashley and Mr. Marks.

NOES.

Abraham, Wm (Cork, N. E.)

Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight)

Benn,W.(T'w'r Hamlets, S.Geo.

Abraham, William (Rhondda)

Barker, John

Bertram, Julius

Acland, Francis Dyke

Barlow, JohnEmmottfSomerset

Bethell, J. H. (Essex,Romford)

Adkins, W. Ryland D.

Barlow Percy (Bedford)

Bethell. T. R. (Essex, Maldon)

Ainsworth, John Stirling

Barnard, E. B.

Billson. Alfred

Alden, Percy

Barnes, G. N.

Birrell. Rt. Hon. Augustine

Allen, A. Acland(Christchurch)

Beale, W. P.

Black. Arthur W.(Bedfordshire

Allen, Charles P. (Stroud)

Beaumont. E.

Bolton, T.D.(Derbyshire, N.E)

Ashton, Thomas Gair

Beaumont, Hn.W.C. B.(Hexhm

Bowerman, C. W.

Asquith, Rt.Hn.HerbertHenry

Beck, A. Ceil

Brace, William

Astbury. John Meir

Bell, Richard

Bramsdon, T. A.

Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth)

Bellairs, Carlyon

Branch, James

Baker, Joseph A.(Finsbury,E.)

Benn, SirJ.Williams(Deronp'rt

Brigg, John

Bright, J. A.

Glover, Thomas

M'Killop, W.

Brocklehurst. W. B.

Goddard, Daniel Ford

M'Micking, Major G.

Brodie, H. C.

Gooch, George Peabody

Maddison, Frederick

Brooke, Stopford

Grant, Corrie

Manfield, Harry (Northants)

Brunner, J. F. L.(Lancs.,Leigh)

Greenwood, G. (Peterborough)

Marnham, F, J.

Brunner, Rt.HnSirJ.T. (Chesh.

Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward

Mason, A. E. W. (Coventry)

Bryce, Rt.Hn.James(Aberdeen

Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill

Massie, J.

Bryce, J. A. (InvernessBurghs)

Gulland, John W.

Masterman, C. F. G.

Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn

Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

Meagher, Michael

Buekmaster, Stanley O.

Hall, Frederick

Menzies, Walter

Burke, E. Haviland-

Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Lewis

Micklem, Nathaniel

Burns, Rt. Hon. John

Hardy, George A. (Suffolk)

Molteno, Percy Alport

Burnyeat, W. J. D.

Harmsworth, Cecil B. (Worc'r)

Money, L. G. Chiozza

Buxton, Rt.Hn.SydneyCharles

Hart-Davies, T.

Montagu, E. S.

Byles, William Pollard

Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale)

Mooney, J. J.

Cairns, Thomas

Harwood, George

Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen)

Cameron, Robert

Haslam, James (Derbyshire)

Morrell, Philip

Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.

Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth)

Morton, Alpheus Cleophas

Carr-Gomm, H. W.

Haworth, Arthur A.

Murnaghan, George

Causton,Rt.Hn.RichardKnight

Hazel, Dr. A. E.

Murphy, John

Cawley. Frederick

Helme, Norval Watson

Murray, James

Chance, Frederick William

Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

Myer, Horatio

Cheetham, John Frederick

Henry, Charles S.

Nannetti, Joseph P.

Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R.

Herbert, Col. Ivor (Mon., S.)

Napier, T. B.

Churchill, Winston Spencer

Hobart, Sir Robert

Newnes, Sir George (Swansea)

Clarke, C. Goddard

Hobhouse, Charles E. H.

Nicholls, George

Cleland, J. W.

Hodge, John

Nicholson, Chas. N. (Doncast'r

Clough, W.

Hogan, Michael

Nolan, Joseph

Cobbold, Felix Thornley

Holden, E. Hopkinson

Norton, Captain Cecil William

Collins.SirWm. J. (S.Pancras,W.

Hooper, A. G.

Nussey, Thomas Willans

Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow)

Horniman, Emslie John

Nuttall, Harry

Corbett, C.H(Sussex,E.Grinst'd

Horridge, Thomas Gardner

O'Brien, Kendal(TipperaryMid

Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.

Howard, Hon. Geoffrey

O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

Cotton, Sir H. J. S.

Hudson, Walter

O'Connor, Jas. (Wicklow, W.)

Cowan, W. H.

Hyde, Clarendon

O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)

Cox, Harold

Idris, T. H. W.

O'Grady, J.

Cremer, William Randal

Illingworth, Percy H.

O'Kelly, Jas. (Roscommon, N.)

Crosfield, A. H.

Isaacs, Rufus Daniel

O'Mara, James

Dalmeny, Lord

Jenkins, J.

O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

Dalziel, James Henry

Johnson, W. (Nuneaton)

Parker, James (Halifax)

Davies, Ellis William (Eifion)

Jones, SirD.Brynmor (Swansea

Partington, Oswald

Davies, Timothy (Fulham)

Jones, Leif (Appleby

Paul, Herbert

Davies, W. Howell, (Bristol S.)

Jones, Wm. (Carnarvonshire)

Pearce, Robert (Staffs., Leek)

Delany, William

Jowett, F. W.

Pearce, William (Limehouse)

Dewar, Arthur (Edinburgh, S.)

Kearley, Hudson E.

Perks, Robert William

Dickinson, W.H.(St,pancras,N

Kekewich, Sir George

Philipps,J.Wynford(Pembroke)

Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.

Kelley, George D.

Philipps, Owen C. (Pembroke)

Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

Kennedy, Vincent Paul

Pickersgill, Edward Hare

Donelan, Captain A.

King, Alfred John (Knutsford)

Pirie, Duncan V.

Duckworth, James

Kitson, Rt. Hon. Sir James

Pollard, Dr.

Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness

Laidlaw, Robert

Price, C. E. (Edinb'gh.Central)

Duncan, J. H. (York, Otley)

Lamb, Edmund G. (Leominster

Price, Robt. John (Norfolk, E.)

Dunn, A. Edward (Camborne)

Lamb, Ernest H. (Rochester)

Radford, G. H.

Dunne, MajorE.Martin(Walsall

Lambert, George

Rainy, A. Rolland

Edwards, Clement (Denbigh)

Lamont, Norman

Raphael, Herbert H.

Edwards, Enoch (Hanley)

Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, W.)

Rea, Russell (Gloucester)

Edwards, Frank (Radnor)

Layland-Barratt, Francis

Rea, Walter Russell(Scarboro')

Elibank, Master of

Leese, Sir Josej>hF.(Accrington

Redmond, John E. (Waterford)

Ellis, Rt. Hon. John Edward

Lever, W.H. (Cheshire, Wirral)

Redmond, William (Clare)

Erskine, David C.

Levy, Maurice

Rees, J. D.

Esmonde, Sir Thomas

Lewis, John Herbert

Rendall, Athelstan

Eve, Harry Trelawney

Lockwood, Rt.Hn.Lt.-Col.A.R.

Renton, Major Leslie

Everett, R. Lacey

Lough, Thomas

Richards, Thos. (W. Monmouth

Faber, G. H. (Boston)

Lundon, W.

Richards, T. F. (Wolverh'mp'tn

Fenwick, Charles

Lupton, Arnold

Richardson, A.

Flynn, James Christopher

Macdonald, J.M.(Falkirk,B'ghs

Ridsdale, E. A.

Freeman-Thomas, Freeman

Mackarness, Frederic C.

Roberts, Chas. H. (Lincoln)

Fuller, John Michael F.

Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.

Roberts, G. H. (Norwich)

Fullerton, Hugh

MacVeagh Jeremiah (Down, S.

Robertson, Rt.Hn. E. (Dundee)

Gibb, James (Harrow)

MacVeagh, Chas. (Donegal, E.)

Robertson.SirG.Scott (Bradf'rd

Gill A. H.

M'Callum, John M.

Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside)

Ginnell, L.

M'Crae, George

Robinson, S.

Gladstone, Rt.Hn.HerbertJohn

M'Kean, John

Robson, Sir William Snowdon

1192

1193

Roe, Sir Thomas

Stuart, James (Sunderland)

Watt, H. Anderson

Rowlands, J.

Sullivan, Donal

Weir, James Galloway

Runciman, Walter

Surmmerbell, T.

White, J. D. (Dumbartonshire)

Rutherford, V. H. (Brentford)

Taylor, John W. (Durham)

White, Luke (York, E.R.)

Samuel, Herb. L. (Cleveland)

Taylor, Theodore C (Radcliffe)

White, Patrick (Meath, North)

Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel)

Tennant, H. J. (Berwickshire)

Whitehead, Rowland

Schwann, Sir C. E. (Manchester

Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.)

Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

Scott, A.H.(Ashton under Lyne

Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.)

Whittaker, Sir Thomas Palmer

Sears, J. B.

Thomas, DavidAlfred(Merthyr

Wiles, Thomas

Seely, Major J. B.

Thompson,J.W.H. (Somerset.E.

Wilkie, Alexander

Shackleton, David James

Tomkinson, James

Williams, J. (Glamorgan)

Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)

Torrance, Sir A. M.

Williams, Llewelyn(Carmarth'n

Shaw, Rt. Hon. T. (Hawick B.)

Toulmin, George

Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)

Shipman, Dr. John G.

Trevelyan, Charles Philips

Williamson, A.

Simon, John Allsebrook

Ure, Alexander

Wilson, Hn. C.H.W.(Hull, W.)

Sinclair, Rt. Hon. John

Verney, F. W.

Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R.

Sloan, Thomas Henry

Vivian, Henry

Wilson, J. H. (Middlesbrough)

Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie

Wads worth, J.

Wilson, J. W. (Worcestersh.,N)

Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.)

Waldron, Laurence Ambrose

Wilson, P. W. (St. Pancras, S.)

Snowden, P.

Walker, H. De R. (Leicester)

Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)

Soames, Arthur Wellesley

Walsh, Stephen

Winfrey, R.

Soares, Ernest J.

Walters, John Tudor

Wodehouse, Lord(Norfolk,Mid)

Stanger, H. Y.

Walton, Sir John L. (Leeds, S.

Wood, T. M'Kinnon

Stanley, Hn. A. Lyulph (Chesh.

Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

Woodhouse, SirJT(Huddersf'd

Stcadman, W. C.

Ward,John (Stoke upon Trent)

Young, Samuel

Stewart, Halley (Greenock)

Wardle, George J.

Stewart-Smith, D. (Kendal)

Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.

TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr.

Strachey, Sir Edward

Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan)

Whiteley and Mr. J. A.

Straus, B. S. (Mile End)

Wason, John C. (Orkney)

Pease.

Strauss, E. A. (Abingdon)

Waterlow, D. S.

Question put, and agreed to.

MR. HARMOOD-BANNER, in moving as a new clause that "It shall be the duty of the clerk of the county council or the town clerk to supply free of charge all forms required for the carrying out of this Act," said he did not know whether he had the consent of the right hon. Gentleman.
MR. HARCOURTsaid he had already promised it.
MR. HARMOOD-BANNER: Then I do not move.
*MR. STAVELEY HILL, in moving a clause imposing upon clerks of county councils and town clerks penalties for wilful neglect to carry out the provisions of the Act, hoped it would receive the acceptance of the Government. It could not be called destructive in any shape or form, and it was not moved with any feeling of hostility to the town clerks or clerks of county councils. It was intended to apply only in those cases where the officials being town clerks or clerks of county councils had acted wilfully. It was unusual and almost unprecedented to introduce legislation which, while it imposed heavy penalties on persons who were guilty of a breach of the measure,
1194
placed no penalties on the officials with whom the responsibility of marking the register rested and by whose wilful neglect heavy punishments would fall on voters. It was true that the officials in question, being clerks to county councils and town clerks, were already hardworked, and he would like to have seen the responsibilty put upon others, but as the Government intended them to perform these duties there should be some penalties such as this clause proposed.
New clause—
"Any clerk of the county council or town clerk who shall wilfully neglect to carry out the provisions of this Act or any part thereof or who shall be wilfully guilty of any breach in the execution of this Act shall for every such offence be liable to pay, by way of fine, a sum of money not exceeding five pounds, nor less than twenty shillings, to be imposed by and at the discretion of any barrister holding any court for the revision of any list of the parish or township of any such clerk of the county council or town clerk."—(Mr. Staveley Hill.)
Brought up, and read the first time.
Motion made, and Question proposed "That the clause be read a second time."
MR. HARCOURTsaid he had already stated that there should be a penalty,

1195
and obviously there must be one. But the method proposed by the hon. Gentleman was not the way to do it. Probably the proper way was to impose the same penalties as those imposed on the voter under the Act of 1843, and he would see that that was done.
Question put, and negatived.
LORD BALCARRES LORD BALCARRES(Lancashire, Chorley) moved the following clause standing in the name of the hon. Member for the Newport Division of Shropshire: "The Clerk of the Crown shall, on demand, supply a certificate, signed by him, certifying the name and address and qualification of any elector who has voted at a Parliamentary election in any constituency in any county or borough and the date upon which such election was held. The fee for such certificate shall not exceed one shilling."
New clause—
"The Clerk of the Crown shall, on demand, supply a certificate, signed by him, certifying the name and address and qualification of any elector who has voted au a Parliamentary election in any constituency in any county or borough and the date upon which such election was held. The fee for such certificate shall not exceed one shilling."—(Lord Balcarres.)
Brought up, and read the first time.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause be read a second time."
MR. HARCOURTdid not think it would be right to give anyone the power to demand —merely out of curiosity it might be—to know if a certain elector had voted. Those who were responsible for the matter know who voted, and he could not accept an Amendment to permit the public to demand this information.
MR. WILLIAM RUTHERFORDfancied this clause had been proposed under a misapprehension. It would be impossible for the Clerk of the Crown to find out the information and to give any such certificate, and he would therefore suggest that although it might be very desirable that such information should be obtainable this was not the way in which it could be brought about.
LORD BALCARRESsaid he would withdraw the clause by the permission of the Committee.
New clause, by leave, withdrawn.
*MR. ASHLEY*MR. ASHLEY(Lancashire, Blackpool) moved the following new clause: —
"Notwithstanding anything in Section 64 of The Corrupt and Illegal Practices Prevention Act, 1883, contained, no person registered as a Parliamentary elector in any constituency, but debarred by Section 1 of this Act from voting in that constituency in any election, shall be held to be an elector in that election and constituency within the meaning of that Act."
He said he wished to insert this clause in order to remove certain disabilities that would be inflicted upon the plural voter if this Bill were carried. Section 7 of the Corrupt and Illegal Practices Prevention Act, 1883, imposed certain restrictions on candidates, and prevented them from making certain payments to electors for the hire of rooms, carriages, and similar purposes, the reason, of course, being that there should not be bribery. By Section 64 an elector was defined as a person who was on the register. If this Bill passed The plural voter would be put under a disability as compared with the elector with only vote, because in the constituencies in which he was not allowed to vote he would be debarred under the Act of 1883 from using his house or windows for the exhibition of bills to further the candidature of one side or the other. He was sure the right hon. Gentleman I did not wish to deprive the plural voter, not only of his second, third, or fourth vote, but also of the opportunity of earning an honest penny in a constituency in which he was not allowed to vote.
New clause—
"Notwithstanding anything in Section 64 of The Corrupt and Illegal Practices Prevention Act, 1883, contained, no person registered as a Parliamentary elector in any constituency, but debarred by [Section 1 of this Act from voting in that constituency in any election, shall be held to be an elector in that election and constituency within the meaning of that Act."—(Mr. Ashley.)
Brought up, and read the first time.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause be read a second time."
MR. HARCOURTsaid he quite understood the hon. Gentleman's view. He wished to be able to treat a plural voter who was not an effective plural voter in a constituency, or to hire him for the purpose of exposing Bills. That was perfectly reasonable, only the clause was a little too wide. If the hon. Gentleman would alter the last part of his clause so as to read "within the meaning of Sections 1 and 7 of that Act," he would accept it.
MR. LYTTELTON (St. George's, Hanover Square)said the right hon. Gentleman had omitted to consider the important part of the Amendment which was to prevent the operation of this Bill diminishing the number of electors in respect of whom the election expenses were measured.
MR. HARCOURTsaid that if the right hon. Gentleman's view was pressed that the clause would create a hardship in this respect he feared that it would be impossible for him to accept the Amendment at all.
LORD R. CECILsaid that he was unable to understand the reference of the right hon. Gentleman to "Section 1" of the Corrupt Practices Act. His hon. friend who moved the new clause desired to give refreshments to electors who were not going to vote, but in Suction 1 it was provided that an elector might be treated to refreshment provided that it was not done with a corrupt object and for the purpose of influencing his vote. There was not the slightest objection to giving refreshments to an elector unless it was done with the intention of influencing votes, and that ought to be forbidden whether the man was an elector or not. There had been cases in which the charge had been that refreshments had been given to a person not for his own vote, but to induce him to influence another person's vote. This was forbidden quite irrespective of the motive, the object being to reduce the expenses of the election. That was the point which had been raised by the right hon. Member for St. George's, Hanover Square. There were two quite distinct objects in view in the Corrupt Practices Act, one of them being
1198
to make elections purer and the other to make them cheaper. The object of limiting the expenses, of course, was to make elections cheaper. This object was met, by providing that they should only spend an amount proportionate to the number of electors. He sincerely hoped the right hon. Gentleman would reconsider the answer he had given.
MR. HARCOURTsaid the noble Lord's argument had convinced him that he had somewhat misunderstood the point as to refreshment. He should have no objection to inserting in the last line the words "Section 7 of."
*MR. STUART WORTLEYsaid that unfortunately the right hon. Gentleman had not taken the opportunity which this Amendment offered of doing something to carry out the idea of making elections cheaper than they had been hitherto. It was all very well for the right hon. Gentleman, who had not had much experience of contested elections, to say that there was a maximum limit and that nobody was bound to spend up to it. In his opinion the maximum limit was the candidate's greatest protection against unreasonable demands being made upon him, and it was an unreasonable thing that poisons not effectively on the register, and not capable of being canvassed, should be counted in assessing the candidate s expenses. He happened to be a Member of the House when Sir Henry James introduced his Bill in 1883, and he knew quite well what was intended by that distinguished statesman. His intention was that the maximum should be a protection to the candidate against unnecessary expenditure. Anything which tended to lower the maximum limit tended to limit the expenses of elections, and he was sorry the Government had not gone along that path in this matter.
MR. ARTHUR HENDERSONsaid that those who had been engaged in elections recently know they had had to make repeated attempts to have the costs of elections taxed because they found a disposition on the part of returning officers to charge upon the highest possible scale. This was a question in which

1199
Labour representatives were particularly interested, for they had found out by experience that the cost of elections was almost more than many of their candidates could afford. If they were going to create a new situation by having 5,000 or 6,000 pluralists in one constituency denied the opportunity of voting—and he did not disagree with the principle of the Bill—if they were going to disfranchise them, certainly they ought not to count those who were disfranchised in order to total up the already too high charges imposed upon Parliamentary candidates. He thought the Government would be acting wisely if they accepted the principle of making it impossible for any returning officer to charge for any elector who under this Act had been made a non-elector in the particular constituency.
MR. HARCOURTsaid he was very much in favour of decreasing the cost of elections in every possible way. The difficulty was that the plural voter whom they wanted to get at would not be marked in every constituency. This brought them back to the point whether they should mark the voter where he had selected to vote or at all the places where he was not to vote and the Committee had already decided against the latter alternative.
MR. A. J. BALFOURsaid the argument which the right hon. Gentleman advanced in one of his earlier speeches was that after all there was no great hardship involved in this proposal, because no man was obliged to spend up to the limit of the maximum laid down by the Act. Nobody who remembered the Act of 1883 could have any doubt as to what had always been the fundamental object of Parliament in regard to this matter. It was a question of the amount they were to be permitted to spend, but Parliament had something more than that in view. Parliament at that time took, and rightly took, the line that the enormous cost of elections was becoming a perfect scandal, and was having the effect of preventing many persons from standing as candidates who would probably have become valuable Members of the House. That was one of the great motives of both sides of the House in dealing with the Bill of 1883. It was felt at that time that there should not be this unlimited ex-
1200
penditure. During one of the earlier debates upon this Bill he gave his own constituency as an illustration. No doubt it was an extreme case, but there were many other cases of the same character. There were more than 30,000 electors in the City of London and the vast majority of them were pluralist voters. They voted in the City of London because it was their place of business or because they happened to possess some other qualification. When this Bill passed he did not doubt that an enormous number of the electors in his constituency would select to vote for their places of residence, and not for their places of business in the City. Therefore the diminution in the total number of voters in the City of London would be immense. No man could say what it would be, but he would not be at all surprised if only 10,000 electors remained. His hon. friend and himself who represented the City at the present time, if they were the candidates at the next election—and he hoped they would be—would find that their scale of expenses would be calculated not on the 10,000 electors who would be able to vote, but on the 30,000 voters who were on the register. That was the absolute construction of this clause. The proposal might be difficult to carry out, but it must be one of two things—either this Bill was started on absolutely impossible lines to begin with, or else there had not been an adequate amount of thought and consideration in order to discover some way of avoiding this difficulty. He would suggest that the best plan would be to read the clause a second time and then see whether they could not amend it in such a way as would meet the objections, not to the principle, but to the way in which the principle was proposd to carried out.
Clause read a second time.
Amendment proposed to the proposed new clause—
"After the word 'of' in the last line to insert the words, 'Section 7 of.'"—(The Chancellor of the Exchequer.)
MR. A. J. BALFOURsaid that if this Amendment were carried nothing would be done to remedy the grievance which

1201
was admitted on both sides of the House. What was more, nothing would be done to make this Bill conform to the policy adopted in 1883. He thought the least the Government could do was to show why it was impossible for them to deal with a situation which everybody admitted ought to be dealt with.
MR. ASQUITHsaid that everybody would like to reduce the expenses at elections. He should very much like to reduce the maximum scale under the Act of 1883, and certainly those sitting on the Ministerial side of the House would have no objection whatever to any proposal to carry out that policy. He was not charging the right hon. Gentleman with inconsistency, but he was glad to find that he was in that frame of mind. As his right hon. friend in charge of the Bill had pointed out, the only reason why the Government limited the Amendment was that they could not do otherwise consistently with the decision at which the Committee had already arrived. They had decided that the plural voter was to select the constituency in which he would vote, and it was only upon the register in that division that his name would be starred. Therefore, in regard to registers in places where he did not intend to vote, how could a Parliamentary candidate or his agent determine how many on the register would vote in that division? The only way would be for the Committee to reverse the decision at which it had arrived. That would involve imposing upon every plural voter not only the obligation to send in a selection notice, but also notices to all the other constituencies in which he did not intend to vote. That was the only possible way to carry out the Amendment as the Bill now stood in the form in which it had been passed by the Committee. This new clause would be, in fact, a reversal of the decision they had already arrived at.
MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAINsubmitted that as the Committee had decided a good many things which the Government admitted would have to be altered on the Report stage, it was quite reasonable to ask that one more alteration should be made. He agreed that it would be a great hardship to require
1202
a voter, in addition to sending notice of the selected constituency, to send notice to every other constituency where he was qualified that he did not intend to vote there. But the Committee had not decided, and he hoped they would not decide, that plural voters should be required to do that. Somebody else would be bound to do that work which, he contended, it would not be right to impose on the plural voter. It was perfectly right that he should not be harassed in that way. The Government proposed to leave that work to electioneering agents. That was going to add enormously to the burden of every sitting Member who paid his expenses in a contest in his own constituency. That ought not to be so, and at a later stage he would propose that the Government ought to discharge the duty, it being one which ought properly to be done by thorn. The answer given by the Chancellor of the Exchequer that the thing could not be done would not stand examination.
MR. WILLIAM RUTHERFORDsaid that if the Committee adopted the clause, and not the Amendment, it would be beneficial in many different ways. By getting rid of all plural voters who were not entitled to vote a great many desirable reforms would be accomplished. The first would be that the returning officer's expenses, which he was entitled to charge against the candidates, would be cut down in accordance with the number voting in the constituency. He could not imagine a more desirable reform than that. If in the City of London the number was cut down from 30,000 to 10,000 what sense would there be in allowing the returning officer to charge on 30,000? He ought to charge only on the actual number able to vote in the constituency. He had in his mind's eye a constituency in Liverpool which would be reduced under the action of this Bill from 9,000 to 5,000. The effect of that should be to relieve the candidates from paying the extra money. It seemed to him to be essential, if the Bill was to accomplish any of the objects claimed for it, that the Government should take some means to provide a net register of the actual number entitled to vote. He respectfully submitted to the Committee that they ought not to limit this clause to Clause 7 of the

1203
Corrupt Practices Act. The only possible reason why the Government opposed the Amendment was that, having made the machinery of the Bill in an unworkable and unsatisfactory form, now they simply said, "We cannot carry out this reform because our machinery will not enable us to do so." That was not an answer. What the Government had to do was to remodel their machinery.
SIR E. CARSONpointed out that in future the register would not be a register of persons entitled to vote, but of some entitled and some not entitled to vote. There would, therefore, be no register within the meaning of Section 64 of the Corrupt Practices Act of 1883. That being so, how was a candidate to regulate his expenses as required by the Act? A more ridiculous clause to put into an Act of Parliament it would be hard to conceive. He had no doubt that when they came to the Report stage, when they were not bound by what had been decided in Committee, the matter might be rectified; hut it was no answer to the arguments urged on that side of the House to say that the Committee had passed this matter entirely in ignorance of what would be the effect of it. The very object of the Report stage was to afford an opportunity for overruling things which had been done in Committee. As he understood the procedure of this House there was nothing to prevent the Government or anybody else moving on Report an Amendment on a question which had been otherwise dealt with in Committee. It was a mere technicality to say that a vote of the House had already been given, and no answer had been made from the Government benches on the merits of this question.
MR. ASQUITHsaid it was not a mere technical point to urge that the Committee had already come to a decision. The matter went to the very root and structure of the Amendment. It should be remembered that the principle of the Bill was that the elector should select the constituency in which he would vote. The right hon. and learned Gentleman had started a fresh hare by discovering a new definition of the word "elector" in the Corrupt Practices Act of 1883. This was to the effect that the expression "elector" was "any person who might be for the time
1204
being on the roll of voters, and who might vote at the time of an election." The right hon. and learned Gentleman's argument was that when they came to this measure a plural voter who had made his selection, and had thereby debarred himself from voting in any other constituency, would not be an elector within that definition. What did "elector" mean? Anyone whose name was on the register for the time being, whether entitled to vote or not. According to all the rules of legal construction that person was an elector within the meaning of the Act. He could not help expressing his surprise that an ex-Law Officer of the Crown, and one of those University representatives of whose value so much had been said, should have been misleading poor unenlightened members of the Committee in the way the right hon. Gentleman had endeavoured to do on the construction of a plain English word. He could assure the Committee that there was no substance of any sort in the contention put forward by the right hon. and learned Gentleman.
SIR E. CARSONsaid that notwithstanding the strong statement of the Chancellor of the Exchequer he still adhered to the construction which he had put on the Act. When this Bill passed the register would no longer contain the names of those entitled to vote, but thousands of names of those who, by the Bill, had been disfranchised. Surely the matter was too plain for argument. As to the sneer the Chancellor of the Exchequer had made use of to him as a mere University Member, he could assure the right hon. Gentleman that he did not mind it in the least; it did not affect him at all. Whether University Member or Chancellor of the Exchequer he would place no meaning upon an Act of Parliament other than that which he hold conscientiously, and he thought it was rather unworthy of the right hon. Gentleman to suggest that he was purposely trying to mislead the Committee. [MINISTERIAL cries of "He did not."]
MR. ASQUITHdenied that he had made any such suggestion.
SIR E. CARSONmaintained, without fear of contradiction by anyone who

1205
liked to read the measure, whether he was a lawyer or not, that there would be no longer a register which came within the definition of the Act of 1883.
*MR. CAVEsaid he entirely appreciated the point raised by the right hon. and learned Gentleman which he thought ought to be settled either now or on the Report stage. When the Act of 1883 was passed, it fixed a maximum amount of expenses to be incurred in an election, and a maximum number of clerks, messengers, and committee rooms, the maximum being determined in each case by the number of electors entitled to vote; but when this Bill was passed the number of electors entitled to vote in any particular constituency would be diminished, and they ought to provide for diminishing the amount of expenses. For himself he would rather have the clause in the form in which his hon. friend had moved it, but if it was to be amended by confining its operation to particular sections of the Act of 1883, he would propose that Sections 1 and 14 should be added to Section 7. He begged to move accordingly.
The Committee divided:—Ayes, 295;

AYES.

Abraham, Wm. (Cork, N.E.)

Bolton, T.D.(Derbyshire, N.E.)

Cowan, W.H.

Abraham, William (Rhondda)

Bowerman, C. W.

Cox, Harold

Acland, Francis Dyke

Brace, William

Cremer, William Randal

Adkins, W. Ryland D.

Bramsdon, T. A.

Crosfield, A. H.

Ainsworth, John Stirling

Branch, James

Dalziel, James Henry

Alden, Percy

Brigg, John

Davies, Ellis William (Eiffon)

Allen, A. Acland (Christchurch)

Bright, J. A.

Davies, Timothy (Fulham)

Allen, Charles P. (Stroud)

Brocklehurst, W. B.

Davies, W. Howell (Bristol, S.)

Ashton, Thomas Gair

Brodie, H. C.

Delany, William

Asquith, Rt.Hn.Herbert Henry

Brooke, Stopford

Dewar, Arthur (Edinburgh, S)

Atherley-Jones, L.

Brunner, J.F. L. (Lanes., Leigh)

Dickinson, W.H.(St.Pancras,N.

Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth)

Brunner,Rt.Hn.SirJ.T.(Chesh.)

Donelan, Captain A.

Baker, J. A. (Finsbury, E.)

Bryce, J.A. (Inverness Burghs)

Duckworth, James

Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight)

Buckimaster. Stanley O.

Duncan, J. H. (York, Otley)

Barker, John

Burke, E. Haviland-

Dunn, A. Edward (Camborne)

Barlow, Percy (Bedford)

Burns, Rt. Hon. John

Edwards, Clement (Denbigh)

Barnard, E. B.

Burnyeat, W. J. D.

Edwards, Enoch (Hanley)

Barnes, G. N

Buxton, Rt.Hn.SydneyChas.

Edwards, Frank (Radnor)

Beale, W. P.

Byles, William Pollard

Elibank, Master of

Beauchamp, E.

Cairns, Thomas

Ellis, Rt. Hn. John Edward

Beaumont, Hn. W. C. B(Hexham

Cawley, Frederick

Erskine, David C.

Bell, Richard

Cheetham, John Frederick

Esmonde, Sir Thomas

Bellairs, Carlyon

Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R.

Eve, Harry Trelawney

Benn, SirJ.Williams(Devonp'rt

Clarke, C. Goddard

Everett, R. Lacey

Benn,W(T'w'r Hamlets,S.Geo.)

Cleland, J. W.

Faber, G. H. (Boston)

Bertram, Julius

Clough, W.

Flynn, James Christopher

Bethall, J. H. (Essex, Romford)

Cobbold, Felix Thornley

Fuller, John Michael F.

Bethell, T. R. (Essex, Maldon)

Collins, SirW. J. (S.Paneras.W

Fullerton, Hugh

Billson, Alfred

Corbett, CH(Sussex,EGrinst'd.

Gibb, James (Harrow)

Black, A. W. (Bedfordshire)

Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.

Gill, A. H.

Boland, John

Cotton. Sir H. J. S.

Ginnell L.

Amendment proposed to the proposed Amendment—
"To leave out the words 'Section 7' and insert the words 'Sections 1, 7 and 14.'"—(Mr. Cave.)
Question proposed, "That the words 'Section 7' stand part of the proposed Amendment."
MR. ASQUITHsaid that perhaps the hon. Member would leave this matter over; if so, he was willing carefully to consider what additional sections of the Corrupt Practices Act might be properly included in the Bill.
SIR E. CARSONsaid it was understood of course that they did not want any amendment.
MR. ASQUITHsaid he understood that.
Amendment to the proposed Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Question put, "That the words 'Section 7 of' be there inserted in the proposed new clause."
Noes, 58. (Division List No. 361.)

Glover, Thomas

Marnham, F. J.

Shackleton, David James

Goddard, Daniel Ford

Massie, J.

Shaw, Chas. Edw. (Stafford)

Gooch, George Peabody

Masterman, C. F. G.

Shipman, Dr. John G.

Grant, Corrie

Mcagher, Michael

Simon, John Allsebrook

Greenwood, G. (Peterborough)

Menzies, Walter

Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie

Gulland, John W.

Micklem, Nathaniel

Smyth, Thos. F. (Leitrim, S.)

Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

Molteno, Percy Alport

Snowden, P.

Haldane, Rt. Hon. Richard B.

Money, L. G. Chiozza

Soames, Arthur Wellesley

Hall, Frederick

Montagu, E. S.

Soares, Ernest J.

Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Lewis

Mooney, J. J.

Stanger, H. Y.

Hardy, George, A. (Suffolk)

Morton, Alpheus Cleophas

Stanley, Hn. A. Lyulph(Chesh

Harmsworth, Cecil B. (Worc'r)

Murnaghan, George

Steadman, W. C.

Hart-Davies, T.

Murphy, Jolm

Steadman. W. C.

Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale)

Murray, James

Stewart, Halley (Greenock)

Haslam, James (Derbyshire)

Myer, Horatio

Stewart-Smith, D. (Kendal)

Haslam, Lewis (Momnouth)

Nannetti, Joseph P.

Strachey, Sir Edward

Haworth, Arthur A.

Napier, T. B.

Straus, B. S. (Mile End)

Helme, Norval Watson

Newnes, F. (Notts, Bassetlaw)

Strauss, E. A. (Abingdon)

Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

Nicholls, George

Stuart, James (Sunderland)

Henry, Charles S.

Nicholson, Chas. N. (Doneast'r

Sullivan, Donal

Higham, John Sharp

Nolan, Joseph

Summerbell. T.

Hobart, Sir Robert

Nortan, Capt. Cecil William

Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth)

Hobhouse, Charles E. H.

Nussey, Thomas Willans

Taylor, John W. (Durham)

Hodge, John

Nuttall, Harry

Taylor, Theodore C (Radcliffe)

Hogan, Michael

O'Brien, K. (Tipperary, Mid.)

Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.

Holden, E. Hopkinson

O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

Thomas, David Alfred(Merthyr

Hooper, A. G.

O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W.

Thompson,J.W.H(Somerset,E.)

Horniman, Emslie John

O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)

Tomkinson, James

Horridge, Thomas Gardner

O'Kelly,James(Roscommon N.

Torrance, Sir A. M.

Howard, Hon. Geoffrey

O'Malley, William

Toulmin, George

Hudson, Walter

O'Mara, James

Ure, Alexander

Hyde, Clarendon

O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

Verney, F. W.

Idris, T. H. W.

Parker, James (Halifax)

Vivian, Henry

Jardine, Sir J.

Partington, Oswald

Wadsworth, J.

Jenkins, J.

Paul, Herbert

Waldron, Laurence Ambrose

Johnson, W. (Nuneaton)

Pearce, Robert (Staffs. Leek)

Walker, H. De R. (Leicester)

Jones, Leif (Appleby)

Pearce, William (Limehouse)

Walsh, Stephen

Jones, Wm. (Carnarvonshire)

Pearson, Sir W. D. (Colchester)

Walton, Sir John L. (Leeds, S.)

Jowett, F. W.

Philipps, J.Wynford(Pembroke

Walton, Joseph (Barnsloy)

Kelley, George D.

Pickersgill, Edward Hare

Ward, John(Stokc-upon-Trent)

Kennedy, Vincent Paul

Pirie, Duncan V.

Wardle, George J.

Kincaid-Smith, Captain

Pollard, D.

Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney

King, Alfred John (Knutsford)

Price, C. E. (Edinb'gh, Central)

Waterlow, D. S.

Kitson, Rt. Hon. Sir James

Price, Robert John (Norfolk, E.

Watt, K. Anderson

Laidlaw, Robert

Radford, G. H.

Wedgwood, Josiah C.

Lamb, Ernest H. (Rchester)

Rea, Russtill (Gloucester)

Weir, James Galloway

Lamont, Norman

Rea, Walter Russell (Scarhoro'

White, George (Xorfolk)

Layland-Barratt, Francis

Redmond, John K. (Watcrford

White, J. D. (Dumbartonshire)

Leese, Sir J. F. (Acarington)

Redmond, William (Clare)

White, Luke (York, E. R.)

Lever, A. Levy (Essex,Harwich

Recs, J. D.

White, Patrick (Meath, North)

Lever, W. H. (Cheshire, Wirrel)

Rendall, Athelstan

Whitchead, Rowland

Levy, Maurice

Richards, Thos. (W. Monm'th)

Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

Lewis, John Herbert

Richards,T. F.(Wolverh'm't'n)

Whittaker, Sir Thomas Palmer

Lough, Thomas

Richardson, A.

Wiles, Thomas

Lundou, W.

Ridsdale, E. N.

Wilkie, Alexander

Lupton, Arnold

Roberts, Chas. H. (Lincoln)

Williams, J. (Glamorgan)

Lynch, H. B.

Roberts, G. H. (Norwich)

Williams. L. (Carmarthen)

Macdonald, J.M.(FalkirkB'ghs)

Robertson, Rt. Hn. E.(Dundee)

Wilson, Henry J. (York, W.R.)

Maclean, Donald

Robertson,SirG. Scott(Bradf'rd.

Wilson, J. H. (Middlesbrough)

Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.

Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside)

Wilson, J. W. (Worcestersh. N.

MacVeagh, Jeremiah (Down, S.

Robinson, S.

Wilson, P. W. (St. Paneras, S.)

MacVeigh, Chas. (Donegal, E.)

Robson, Sir William Snowdon

Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)

M'Callum, John M.

Rowlands, J.

Wood. T. M'Kinnon

M'Crae, George

Rutherford, V. H. (Brentford)

Young, Samuel

M'Kean, John

Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)

Yoxall, James Heury

M'Killop, W.

Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel

M'Micking, Major G.

Schwann, Sir C. E. (Manchester

Maddison, Frederick

Scott, A.H.(Ashton underLyne)

Manfield, Harry (Northants)

Sears, J. E.

1208

1209

NOES.

Acland-Hood, Rt. Hn. Sir A. F.

Forster,Henry William

Ratcliff, Major R. F.

Balcarres, Lord

Gibbs, G. A. (Bristol, West)

Rawlinson, John Fredk. Peel

Banbury, Sir Frederick George

Haddock, George R.

Roberts, S. (Sheffield,Ecclesall)

Barrie, H. T. (Londonderry,N.)

Hamilton, Marquess of

Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert

Bridgeman, W. Clive

Hardy, L. (Kent, Ashford)

Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool)

Bull, Sir William James

Harrison-Broadley, Col. H. B.

Salter, Arthur Clavell

Butcher, Samuel Henry

Hay, Hon. Claude George

Smith, F. E.(Liverpool,Walton)

Carlile, E. Hildred

Hill, Sir Clement (Shrewsbury)

Starkey, John R.

Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Ed. H.

Houston, Robert Paterson

Staveley-Hill, Henry (Staff'sh.)

Castlereagh, Viscount

Kennaway, Rt. Hn. Sir John H.

Stone, Sir Benjamin

Chamberlain, Rt,Hn.J.A(Worc.

Lane-Fox, G. R.

Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

Law, Andrew Bonar (Dulwich)

Thomson, W.Mitchell-(Lanark)

Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow)

Lockwood, Rt.Hn.Lt.-Col.A.R.

Valentia, Viscount

Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)

M'Calmont, Colonel James

Walker, Col. W. H.(Lancashire)

Craig, Capt. James (Down, E.)

Marks, H. H. (Kent)

Wortley, Rt. Hn. C. B. Stuart-

Dalrymple, Viscount

Meysey-Thompson, E. C.

Younger, George

Doughty, Sir George

Nicld, Horbert

Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

Parkes, Ebenezer

TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr.

Fell, Arthur

Pease, HerbcrtPike(Darlington

Cave and Mr. Ashley.

Finch, Rt. Hn. Goerge H.

Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

Fletcher, J. S.

Randles, Sir John Scurrah

Question proposed, "That the clause, as amended, be added to the Bill."
*MR. H. H. MARKSsaid he desired to add at the end of the clause a definition of an elector, because in his judgment the limiting words referring to Clause 7 took away all the value of the clause and reduced it to a nullity.
MR. ASQUITH, as a point of order, said that Section 7, and only Section 7, of the Act would apply in these cases. Therefore it was only in regard to Section 7 that this clause was material.
The CHAIRMANthought the Amendment which the hon. Member suggested was out of order.
MR. CLAUDE HAYthought the Committee were entitled to some further explanation in reference to this clause. The right hon. Gentleman had told them that Clause 7 was the only clause which would apply, but he did not tell them that Clause 64 had no bearing upon Clause 7. Of course he should bow to what the right hon. Gentleman said as a lawyer, but to say that, Clause 7 having been incorporated, other clauses having a bearing on Clause 7 were not to affect the Bill was begging the point Therefore he asked the right hon. Gentleman to show how and why the matters dealt with in Clause 64 were absolutely
1210
rendered out of ken by the incorporation of Clause 7. If as a lawyer the right hon. Gentleman was satisfied, well and good. It was a matter which a lawyer would know but a layman would not, though he thought it was a question upon which a layman was entitled to have an answer.
MR. ASQUITHsaid if the hon. Gentleman had heard the answer given to the hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Kingston he would have known exactly that only Section 7 of the Corrupt Practices Act was to apply to this Act. The other sections would certainly not apply. The hon. Member would see that the clause began with the words—
"Notwithstanding anything in Section 64 of the Corrupt and Illegal Practices Prevention Act, 1883, contained, no person registered as a parliamentary elector in any constituency, but debarred by Section 1 of this Act from voting in that constituency in any election, shall be held to be an elector in that election and constituency:"
Then came the limiting words—
"Within the meaning of Section 7 of that Act."
*MR. H. H. MARKSsaid that it was on account of the insertion of the limiting words that he opposed the clause in its present form. He did so because the inclusion of these words took away the whole value of the clause. It was omasculated and every vestige of good that it possessed was taken from it. For

1211
these reasons he should vote against its adoption.
IR E. CARSONsaid he would like to suggest that if this clause was to be added to the Bill the right hon. Gentleman should consider the advisability of redrafting it. At present it read in a most peculiar way.
MR. ASQUITHagreed that that was necessary.
Question put, "That the clause, as amended, be added to the Bill."
The Committee divided:—Ayes, 294; Noes, 58. (Division List No. 362.)

Murphy, John

Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)

Tomkinson, James

Murray, James

Roberts. G. H. (Norwich)

Torrance Sir A. M.

Myer, Horatio

Robertson.Rt. Hn. E. (Dundee)

Toulmin. George

Nannetti, Joseph P.

Robertson,SirG.Scott(Bradf'rd

Ure, Alexander

Napier, T. B.

Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside)

Verney, F. W.

Newnes, F. (Notts, Bassetlaw)

Robinson, S.

Vivian, Henry

Nicholls, George

Robson, Sir William Snowdon

Wadsworth, J.

Nicholson,Charles N.(Doneast'r

Rowlands, J.

Waldron, Laurence Ambuose

Nolan, Joseph

Runciman, Walter

Walker, H. De R. (Leicester)

Norton, Capt. Cecil William

Rutherford, V. H.(Brentford)

Walsh, Stephen

Nussey, Thomas Willans

Samuel, Herbert L.(Cleveland)

Walton, Sir JohnL. (Leeds, S.)

Nuttall, Harry

Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel)

Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent

O' Brien, Kendal(TippcraryMid

Schwann, SirC.E.(Manchester)

Wardle, George, J.

O'Bren, Patrick (Kilkenny)

Scott, A. H. (Ashton-und.-Lyne

Wason, Eugene(Clackmannan;

O'Connor, James (Wicklow,W.

Sears, J. E.

Wason,John Catheart(Orkney)

O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)

Shackleton, David James

Waterlow, D. S.

O'Kelly, James (Roseommon.N.)

Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)

Watt, H. Anderson

O'Malley. William

Shapman, Dr. John G.

Wedgwood, Josiah C.

O'Mara, James

Simon, John Allsebrook

Weir, James Galloway

O'Shaughnessy, P. J

Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie

White, George (Norfolk)

Parker, James (Halifax)

Smyth, Thomas F.(Leitrim, S.)

White, J. D. (Dumbartonshire)

Partington. Oswald

Snowden, P.

White, Luke (York, E.R.)

Paul, Herbert

Soames, Arthur Wellesley

White, Patrick (Meath, North)

Pearee, Robert (Staffs, Leek)

Soares, Ernest J.

Whitehead, Rowland

Pearce, William (Limehouse)

Stanger, H. Y.

Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

Pearson, Sir W.D.(Colchester)

Stanley.Hn. A. Lyulph (Chesh.)

Wlittaker, Sir Thomas Palmer

Philipps,J.Wynford(Pembroke

Steadman, W. C.

Wiles, Thomas

Pickorsgill, Edward Hare

Stewart, Halley (Greenock)

Williams, J.-Glamorgan)

Pirie, Duncan V.

Stewart-Smith, D. (Kendal)

Williams,Llewelyn(Carm'rth'n)

Price, C.E. (Edinb'rgh.Central)

Strachey, Sir Edward

Wilson, Henry J.(York, W. R.)

Price, Robert John(Norfolk,E.)

Straus, B. S. (Mile End)

Wilson, J. H. (Middlesbrough)

Radford, G. H.

Strauss, E. A. (Abingdon)

Wilson, J.W.(Worcestersh.N.)

Rea, Russell (Gloucester)

Stuart, James (Sunderland)

Wilson, P.W.(St. Pancras, S.)

Rea, Walter Russell (Scarboro'

Sullivan, Donal

Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)

Redmond, John E.(Waterford)

Summerbell, T.

Wood, T. M'Kinnon

Redmond, William (Clare)

Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth)

Young, Samuel

Rees, J. D.

Taylor, John W. (Durham)

Yoxall, James Henry

Rendall, Athelstan

Taylor, Theodore C.(Radcliffe)

Richards,Thomas(W. Moron' th

Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.

TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr.

Richards,T. F. (Wolverh'mpton

Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.)

Whiteley and Mr. J. A.

Richardson, A.

Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr

Pease.

Ridsdale, E. A.

Thompson, J. W. H. (Somerset

NOES.

Acland-Hood.RtHn.SirAlex.F.

Finch, Rt. Hon. George H.

Randles, Sir John Seurrah

Ashley, W. W.

Fletcher, J. S.

Ratcliff, Major R. F.

Balcarres, Lord

Forster, Henry William

Rawlinson, JohnFrederickPeel

Banbury, Sir Frederick George

Gibbs, G. A. (Bristol, West)

Roberts, S. (Sheffield.Eeclesall)

Barrie, H.T. (Londonderry, N.)

Had lock, George R.

Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert

Bridgeman, W. Clive

Hamilton, Marquess of

Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool)

Butcher, Samuel Henry

Hardy,Laurence (Kent, Ashf'd.

Salter, Ajrthur Clavell

Carlile, E. Hildred

Harrison-Broadley, Col. H. B.

Smith, F.E.(Liverpool,Walton)

Carson, Kt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

Hay, Hon. Claude George

Starkey, John R.

Castlereagh, Viscount

Hill, Sir Clement (Shrewsbury)

Staveley-Hill, Henry(Staff'sh.)

Cave, George

Houston, Robert Paterson

Stone, Sir Benjamin

Chamberlain.Rt Hn.J.A(Worc.

Kennaway.Rt. Hn. Sir John H.

Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

Lane-Fox, G. R.

Thomson,W. Mitchell (Lanark)

Collings,Rt.Hn. J. (Birmingh'm

Law, Andrew Bonar (Dulwich)

Valentia, Viscount

Corbett. A. Cameron (Glasgow)

Lockwood, Rt.Hn.Lt.-Col.A.R.

Walker, CoL W.H.(Lancashire)

Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)

M'Calmont, Colonel James

Younger, George

Craig,Charles Curtis (Antrim,S.

Meysey-Thompson, E. C.

Dalrymple, Viscount

Nield, Herbert

TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr

Doughty, Sir George

Parkes, Ebenezer

Marks and Sir William Bull.

Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

Pease,Herbert Pike (Darlington

Fell, Arthur

Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

SIR E. CARSON SIR E. CARSON moved a new clause providing that where the name of a person was put upon the register for
1214
The first time, the clerk of the county council or town clerk should at once serve a notice of the fact on such person,

1215
warning him that if he was registered in any other district he must make a selection under the terms of this Bill. The object of the Amendment was to prevent, if possible, a number of people being disfranchised who had a qualification but who would not know what they had to do in regard to this Bill, and might not know whether their names appeared on the register.
Now clause—
"Where the name of any person is inserted on the register of Parliamentary voters for the first time the clerk of the county council or town clerk shall serve a notice of the fact on such person, and shall thereby give him notice that if he is registered in any other constituency it is necessary to serve a notice in accordance with and in the form and manner prescribed by the first section of this Act."—(Sir E. Carson.)
Brought up, and read the first time.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the clause be road a second time."
MR. HARCOURTsaid he spoke on a question almost exactly similar to this the previous night. It was impossible for the clerk to know whether it was the first time the name appeared on the register. He could not possibly accept the Amendment.
Question put, and negatived.
MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN moved the following now clause:—
"(1) The officer responsible for the printing of the Parliamentary register in each constituency, shall, as soon as such register is printed, send a copy of the register to the Local Government Board, and it shall be the duty of the Local Government Board to forthwith compare all such registers, and to mark the names of all plural voters with a distinguishing mark; (2) The register so marked shall be sent on or before the thirty-first day of December in each, year, to the returning officer of the constituency for which it was compiled, and every elector whose name appears on that register without such distinguishing mark shall be entitled to vote at elections in that constituency notwith-
1216
standing anything to the contrary in the provisions of this Act unless his name shall have been struck off by the revising barrister at the revision court."
This Amendment, he said, was of very great importance. The Government, on the first clause of the Bill, had repeatedly stated when they insisted upon the selection being made that it was part of the principle of the Bill that the register should clearly show whether the person was entitled to vote, and that candidates should know who was an effective voter and who was not. The Bill, as it stood, would not give anyone that information. It left them all in complete doubt as to who were and who were not effective voters. In the second place his Amendment would enable them to limit the expenditure in proportion to the number of effective voters and not have it swollen by sham electors—sham in the sense that although their names appeared on the register and they had a qualification they would not under this Bill have the right to vote. The only department that could do this duty of chocking the registers was the Local Government Board, and that responsibility should fall upon the Government Department and not candidates.
New clause—
"(1) The officer responsible for the printing of the Parliamentary register in each constituency shall as soon as such register is printed send a copy of the register to the Local Government Board and it shall be the duty of the Local Government Hoard to forthwith compare all such registers and to mark the names of all plural voters with a distinguishing mark; (2) The register so marked shall be sent on or before the thirty-first day of December in each year to the returning officer of the constituency for which it was compiled, and every elector whose name appears on that register without such distinguishing mark shall be entitled to vote at elections in that constituency notwithstanding anything to the contrary in the provisions of this Act unless his name shall have been struck off by the revising barrister at the revision court."—(Mr. Austen Chamberlain.)
Brought up, and read the first time.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this clause be read a second time."
MR. HARCOURTsaid the right hon. Gentleman proposed to set up a clearinghouse for voters. If that could be efficiently carried out it would be a good thing. He had always said that an ideal method would be to mark on the register against the plural voter's name "not to vote"; but he thought a simpler solution altogether would be to abolish property qualification and make it purely residential. The proposal for a clearing-house was one he could not promptly accept, because it could not be worked. He imagined the right hon. Gentleman had moved the new clause merely with a view to proving this Bill was ridiculous.
MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN: That was a subsidiary object.
MR. HARCOURTsaid he was certainly not inclined to throw the whole electoral system of the country and the organisation of the Local Government Board into the melting-pot in order merely to forward a subsidiary object of the right hon. Gentleman.
MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAINsaid the right hon. Gentleman had shown such a clear perception of the points at issue that he would ask leave to withdraw the clause at the present time, reserving his right to bring up the subject again.
New clause, by leave, withdrawn.
The CHAIRMANsaid the clause standing in the name of the hon. Member for Barnard Castle was out of order.
The clause in question was as follows:—
"Nothing in this Act shall deprive any elector of his right to vote who is registered for more than one constituency but who has a qualification in only one constituency, and who in no way is seeking to evade the provisions of this Act, provided that such elector declares
1218
that he has not voted in any other constituency during that election."
MR. ARTHUR HENDERSONsaid the point involved in the clause had been discussed, and the Chancellor of the Exchequer was so impressed with the importance of doing something that he had promised the matter should be gone into. He had simply taken the precaution of putting the clause on the Paper so that it should have the consideration of the Committee.
The CHAIRMANsaid he thought the point in the Amendment had been discussed a great deal and had been previously decided.
MR. ARTHUR HENDERSONsaid he understood the objection was that it was outside the scope of the Bill.
The CHAIRMANsaid one part of the clause certainly proposed something which was hostile to the principle of Clause 1.
MR. ARTHUR HENDERSONsaid he did not seek to put in anything that was hostile to Clause 1, and he thought he would be able to show that he did not in in any way interfere with the principle of selection.
The CHAIRMANsaid that so far as he could see it certainly appeared that a man who had two qualifications and had not selected was to be able to vote, and that was contrary to the principle of the clause.
MR. ARTHUR HENDERSONsaid he did not say the man who had two qualifications but who had only one and had been accidentally registered for another as well.
The CHAIRMANsaid the clause dealt with the man who had been registered in two places.
*MR. NIELD*MR. NIELD moved a new clause providing that Section 28, sub section 14 of the Parliamentary and Municipal Registration Act 1878, and the 5th section of the Registration Act 1885, should not apply in respect of any parson who should be required to make a selection under Clause 1 of this Act. There ought not to be duplicate marks on the register, which should be quite distinct and not confounded with the marks under the other Acts, which must inevitably cause confusion in regard to the registers, which were quite sufficiently difficult to understand at the present time.
MR. HARCOURTsaid he did not see any reason for changing the system which with a single register in a single area had worked very well.
New clause, by leave, withdrawn.
Amendment proposed—
"In Schedule, page 4, line 3, after the word 'you,' to insert the words 'to your knowledge.'"—(Mr. Cave.)
Amendment agreed to.
Amendment proposed—
"In Schedule, page 4, line 6, after '1861,' to insert the words 'and The Universities Election Amendment (Scotland) Act, 1881.'"—(Mr. Harcourt.)
MR. CLAUDE HAYthought they were entitled to some explanation of this Amendment from the Lord Advocate.
MR. HARCOURTsaid that the words were necessary in order to bring the Act into force in Scotland.
MR. CLAUDE HAYhoped the Committee would insist upon a fuller explanation being given of this proposal on Report.
MR. BONAR LAWthought it was treating the House of Commons with little less than contempt to propose an Amendment of this kind when there was no member of the Government present who was capable of explaining it.
SIR WILLIAM ROBSONsaid that to anyone who had paid close attention to the wording of the Bill no explanation of this proposal would be necessary. They were simply proposing that in line 6 they should add those words, indicating that they were making the addition under two Acts instead of under one.
Amendment agreed to.
MR. CAVEsaid the Amendment he had to propose was simply a consequential one. He begged to move.
Amendment proposed—
"In Schedule, page 4, line 8, after the word 'not' to insert the words 'to my knowledge."—(Mr. Cave.)
MR. HARCOURTsaid he had no objection to the words, but he would like time to see whether the place proposed was the best to insert them.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. Schedule, as amended, agreed to.
Bill reported; as amended, to be considered to-morrow, and to be printed. [Bill 346.]
Whereupon Mr. SPEAKER adjourned the House without Question put, pursuant to the Resolution of the House of the 4th August last.
Adjourned at half after Nine o'clock.