Commons Sitting of 28 November 1906

Preamble
The House met at a quarter before Three of the Clock.
PRIVATE BILL BUSINESS.

  MESSAGE FROM THE LORDS.
  That they have agreed to, Blairgowrie, Rattray, and District Water Order Confirmation Bill; Edinburgh Corporation (Superannuation) Order Confirmation Bill, without Amendment.
  Amendments to—Great Northern Railway (Ireland) Bill [Lords], without Amendment.

PETITIONS.
  LOCAL GOVERNMENT ACT 1888 (POLICE ADMINISTRATION).
  Petition from West Riding of Yorkshire, for alteration of Law; to lie upon the Table.
RETURNS, REPORTS, ETC.

  STRAITS SETTLEMENTS.
  Copy presented, of Order in Council, dated 22nd October, 1906, entitled The

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  Straits Settlements (Coinage) Order, 1906 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.

  CIVIL CONTINGENCIES FUND, 1905–6.
  Copy ordered, "of Accounts of the Civil Contingencies Fund, 1905–6, showing (1) the receipts and payments in connection with the Fund in the year ended the 31st day of March, 1906; (2) the distribution of the capital of the Fund at the commencement and close of the year; together with Copy of the Correspondence with the Comptroller and Auditor - General thereon."—(Mr. McKenna.)
QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS CIRCULATED WITH THE VOTES.

  Royal Patriotic Fund.
  SIR CHARLES SCHWANN: To ask the Prime Minister whether he is aware that the money subscribed by the public to the Royal Patriotic Fund (after the Crimean War and Indian Mutiny) is not being distributed in accordance with the wishes of the subscribers; that the pensions of widows are limited to 7s. a week and the remainder hoarded; and what steps he proposes to take to remedy this state of things.
  (Answered by Sir Henry Campbell-Bannerman.) I am informed that there is no foundation of fact for the assumption of my hon. friend that the money subscribed by the public to the Patriotic Crimean War and Indian Mutiny Relief Funds is not being distributed in accordance with the wishes of the subscribers, or that the allowances to widows are limited to 7s. a week and the remainder hoarded. The administration of both funds involves a yearly expenditure far in excess of the incomes from invested funds, with the result that, so far from the funds being hoarded, they are steadily diminishing by thousands of pounds yearly. If my hon. friend will refer to the second Report of the Royal Patriotic Fund to the King, published as a Blue-Book, he will find that the expenditure of the Patriotic Russian War Fund for 1905 was£14,087, against an income of £4,607, and for the Indian Mutiny Relief Fund the expenditure was £2,429, against an
  30
  income of £743. The Indian Mutiny Relief Fund, in fact, was taken over by the Patriotic Fund authorities under an Order of the Court of Chancery only as recently as 1st January, 1903, because it had become insolvent under its previous management to the extent that its assets were deficient by upwards of £11,000 to enable the beneficiaries to continue in the enjoyment of their allowances at rates then existing. I am informed that by good and more economical management the deficiency of assets has since been reduced, but that there is still a deficiency of upwards of £4,000 which may have to be made good from the general funds of the Royal Patriotic Fund Corporation. If my hon. friend will refer to paragraph 8 of the first report of the Corporation to the King he will find that the scale of allowances settled by the Corporation, after public discussion, at their annual general meeting in 1905, is considerably higher than the scale which he assumes, erroneously, is being issued to beneficiaries on funds raised by public subscription under the administration of the Corporation. I may add that if my hon. friend will refer to paragraph 9 of the second and latest Report of the Corporation he will find that, taking all the funds administered by the Corporation, the aggregate expenditure for 1905 was £72,394, against an aggregate income on all funds of £43,130. Therefore it follows that there is no policy of hoarding on the part of the Corporation in respect of any of their funds.

  Royal Engineers in the Post Office.
  SIR G. KEKEWICH: To ask the Postmaster-General whether Royal Engineers are employed at postal telegraph offices in Southampton, Bristol, Exeter, and Plymouth, receiving emoluments consisting partly of military pay and partly of wages from the Post Office; whether they are compelled to perform overtime and Sunday duty; whether the payment for these extra duties is based not on their total pay but on a scale only slightly above their Post Office wages; and whether this practice will be abandoned as soon as possible.
  (Answered by Mr. Sydney Buxton.) The pay of the Royal Engineers employed at the post offices named consists partly of military pay and partly of wages

  31
  from the Post Office. When necessary, they are, like ordinary sorting clerks and telegraphists, liable to be called on to perform overtime and Sunday duty; and when this occurs their Post Office wages are increased in the usual manner. I have no power to increase their Army pay.

  Telegraph Business at Halifax.
  MR. PARKER: To ask the Postmaster-General whether he is aware that during the past twelve months the telegraph transactions at Halifax numbered 496,433, while the figures for the twelve months ending September, 1905, were 467,056, and that notwithstanding the increase of work the number of operators have been reduced; whether, as a direct result of the decrease, the delay in telegraphic traffic has increased; and whether he will explain why expert operators are removed from telegraphic duties and forced to perform letter sorting at a time when telegraph work is increasing and the delay accruing is of disadvantage to the business of the town.
  (Answered by Mr. Sydney Buxton.) Although there has been an increase in the total number of telegraph transactions at Halifax, the ordinary telegraph work there has decreased. The increase in the total is owing to heavy press work on one or two special occasions, which of course would not effect the determination of the normal force of the office. An officer from headquarters reported to me only this month that generally the telegraph working was Very satisfactory, and I am assured also that there is no undue delay. There certainly has been no increased delay. As I promised the hon. Member on the 26th ult.,† I have had inquiry made as regards sorting work done by certain telegraphists, and I am writing to him on the subject.

  Clerk to the Scottish Inspector of Taxes.
  MR. SLOAN: To ask the Secretary to the Treasury whether he will now state the total service of the clerk to the inspector of taxes in Scotland; is he aware that such clerk was only in receipt of 20s. wages weekly up to his thirty-first year of service; what was the basis on which the gratuity of £78 was computed; and will he state what pension such clerk would have
  † See (4) Debates, clxiii., 669.
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  received had his position been an established one.
  (Answered by Mr. McKenna.) I think the hon. Member will find a reply to the points he now raises in the Answer which I gave to him on the 13th instant.‡ I notice that in the Question 20s. is a misprint for 30s.

  Clerks and Surveyors of Taxes.
  MR. SLOAN: To ask the Secretary to the Treasury whether, in view of the fact that the Department requires clerks to surveyors of taxes to retire on attaining the age of sixty-two years, he will state if he is aware that such rule is not known to the clerks; whether he will explain why the clerks have not been informed of such intended future action: will he state if clerks forced to retire on on attaining the age of sixty-two years are to receive any gratuity after long and faithful service in the department.
  (Answered by Mr. McKenna.) The services of the clerks in question can be dispensed with at any time at a week's notice, and no guarantee of employment till the age of sixty-two can be given or implied. It is, therefore, unnecessary to give any such notice as the hon. Member suggests. The clerks are not entitled to any gratuity on retirement, but it is usual in deserving cases to make compassionate grants.

  Convocations of Canterbury and York.
  MR. PAUL: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department when he proposes to comply with the Order of the House dated the 24th of October last by laying upon the Table the letters of business addressed to the Convocations of Canterbury and York; when these letters were actually issued; and what has been the cause of the delay in presenting them.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Gladstone.) The letters of business were not issued until the 10th instant. The papers are now in the printer's hands, and will be ready shortly. I will lay Copies upon the Table in manuscript to-morrow. There has been no special reason for delay, but the heavy pressure of work of all kinds has prevented earlier publication. ‡ See (4) Debates, clxiv., 1268.

  Obsolete Torpedo Boats.
  MR. NIELD. To ask the Secretary to the Admiralty whether he is aware that torpedo boats Nos. 65 to 73, which are twenty years old, are referred to in certain standard naval works as being of no fighting value; and whether the Admiralty will consider the advisability of removing them from the list.
  (Answered by Mr. Edmund Robertson.) It is not proposed to remove these vessels from the list so long as they are suitable for performing the duties they would be required to undertake in war.

  Flogging in Prisons.
  MR. BYLES: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department, are there any Returns showing the extent to which the practice of flogging prevails in His Majesty's prisons and reformatories; and would legislation be necessary to put an end to this form of punishment.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Gladstone.) Full particulars of all cases of corporal punishment in prisons are given in the Annual Report of the Prison Commissioners. There is no corporal punishment in inebriate reformatories, and in juvenile reformatories only moderate chastisement with the birch rod is allowed. Corporal punishment in prisons is expressly authorised by an Act of Parliament, which could only be repealed by legislation.

  Release of Women Suffragists.
  MR. CLYNES: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether the ladies who were liberated from Holloway Goal on Saturday were liberated because their sentences were excessive; and, if not, whether he will explain why the period of imprisonment was terminated by an order before their term expired.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Gladstone.) The prisoners were liberated, when they had served half their sentences, by an exercise of the royal prerogative of
  34
  mercy. It would not be in accordance with constitutional practice to state the grounds of the advice which I tendered to His Majesty.

  Whitburn Beach.
  MR. SUMMEEBELL: To ask the Secretary to the Treasury if he will state the nature of the Report of the official sent down to examine into the condition of the beach between Sunderland and Whitburn, and also the result of the negotiations between his department and the collieries concerned in the tipping of the refuse upon the said beach.
  (Answered by Mr. McKenna.) No actual Report has been made on the condition of the shore at Whitburn, but a personal inspection of it was made by the Commissioner of Woods having charge of it. As the result of his communication with the colliery company, they have undertaken to put an end to the tipping on the shore as soon as practicable, but to do this may necessitate the acquisition of additional land for tipping and the rearrangement of the railway access to the tipping area. It is therefore not practicable to stop the tipping on the shore immediately without seriously interfering with the working of the colliery, which is an extensive undertaking and gives employment to a large number of men.

  Local Taxation (Ireland) Account.
  MR. COGAN: To ask the Secretary to the Treasury whether he is aware that the Local Taxation (Ireland) Account is a practically inexpensive fund, and that, on the contrary, the charges upon that fund have expanded during the past six years, and that they are likely to show further increases; and, if so, whether he will seek to amend The Superannuation Act, 1887, so that the sums equivalent to the capitation grant deducted from the pensions of asylum inmates now paid into the Exchequer will in future be placed to the credit of the Irish Local Taxation Account.
  (Answered by Mr. McKenna.) The total amount at stake is small, and I do not think it desirable to propose legislation

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  for the purpose of making the law on this subject in Ireland different from the law in England.

  The Disturbances at Portsmouth.
  MR. LEA: To ask the Secretary to the Admiralty whether he will state what action he proposes to take in connection with the sentence of five years penal servitude inflicted by a court martial upon Stoker Moodie at Portsmouth on the 26th instant; whether he can state why Lieutenant Collard was permitted to decline to give evidence in this case when examined by the prisoner; what action he proposes to take in connection with the allegation that Lieutenant Collard on one occasion addressed a stoker with the words, "Down on the knee, you dog"; whether the order, "Down on the knee," is a proper order to be addressed to any man or boy in the Navy; and, if not, will he abolish it at once.
  (Answered by Mr. Edmund Robertson.) In answer to the first Question on the Paper, the proceedings of a court martial, as I have repeatedly stated, are subject to review by the Judge-Advocate of the Fleet, and the sentence may be modified, suspended, or annulled by the Board of Admiralty. As to the rest of the Question, I can only repeat what I have already said, that, until judicial proceedings are exhausted, no statement can be made by which they might be prejudiced; and that, on the conclusion of these proceedings, an Admiralty Minute will be promulgated giving the decision of the Board in regard to the conduct of all concerned and the questions arising thereon.

  Lieutenant Collard.
  MR. DALZIEL: To ask the Secretary to the Admiralty what is the constitution of the Court that is to inquire into the conduct of Lieutenant Collard in connection with the recent order to stokers at Portsmouth; when will it begin its inquiry; and will the proceedings be of a public character.
  (Answered by Mr. Edmund Robertson.) Lieutenant Collard's action on 4th
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  November was within the scope of the first Court of Inquiry held to investigate the occurrences on that date. A second Court of Inquiry, composed of two post captains, has already examined and reported on the allegation against Lieutenant Collard in respect of 24th November, 1905. In accordance with the invariable custom of the service the proceedings at the Court of Inquiry are confidential.

  St. David's School, Merthyr Tydvil.
  MR. D. A. THOMAS (Merthyr Tydvil): To ask the President of the Board of Education whether there are foundation managers for St. David's national schools, Merthyr Tydvil, in accordance with the provisions of The Education Act, 1902; if so, have they held meetings within the last nine months; is there a playground attached to the school, and in what condition is it kept; and will he make inquiry respecting the management and condition of the schools.
  (Answered by Mr. Birrell.) The girls' and infants' departments of this school are condemned, and will, I think, certainly be closed at the end of the year. The question of the alterations and repairs necessary to render the premises (including the playground) of the boys' department satisfactory is still under discussion; until this is settled, which I hope it will be shortly, I do not think it is necessary to inquire into irregularities of Management, which are alleged. I may, however, say that the Board understand that foundation managers have been appointed.

  Kew Gardens—Discharge of Gardeners.
  MR. SUMMERBELL: To ask the hon. Member for South Somerset, as representing the President of the Board of Agriculture, if a number of gardeners employed at Kew Gardens have received notices of discharge; and, if so, would he state the number of men involved and the reason for such discharges.
  (Answered by Sir Edward Strachey.) The young gardeners at Kew, viz., those below the grade of sub-foremen, are usually

  37
  employed for about two years, during which period they are afforded opportunities of working in different departments and of attending the various classes provided for their instruction. No notices of discharge have been given, but in conformity with the rule to which I have referred, the young gardeners who have completed two years' service will leave next month.

  War Office Land at Pewsey.
  MR. ROGERS: To ask the Secretary of State for War in reference to the rates paid on War Office land in the Pewsey Union, whether he is aware that this land is let to farming tenants subject to a right of user for military purposes; that notice has been given to the Pewsey Union Assessment Committee that the War Office do not intend to continue the contribution hitherto made in lieu of rates in respect of this military user to the overseers of the parishes affected after 31st March 1907; whether, seeing that the effect of this decision will be to compel the assessment committee to rate the occupying farm tenants at a figure exceeding the agricultural value of their holdings by the value of the right of user reserved for military purposes and far in excess of the rent paid by them, and in view of the discontent that will be caused, inasmuch as it will throw upon the tenants now liability, and in view of the fact that such liability was not taken into consideration when the rents were fixed, he will make an abatement to the occupying tenants on their rent of an amount equivalent to the sums hitherto paid by the War Office in lieu of rates in respect of right of user, in order to compensate the tenants for their extra liability.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Haldane,.) I am aware that the contribution in question has been withdrawn by the Treasury (not the War Department). As regards the latter part of the Question, I am not in a position to say what action will be taken. If the contingency arises the matter will receive consideration.

  Whitley Camp Buildings.
  MR. SUMMERBELL: TO ask the Secretary of State for War if he is aware
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  that a contract, dated 10th January, 1899, between the officer commanding the 5/68th Regimental District and Mr. W. Key was entered into to the effect that Mr. W. Key, of Sunderland, having purchased the wooden buildings on the camping ground at Whitley which were used as a temporary church, store, sergeants' mess, canteens, etc., for the sum of £300, it was agreed to pay him the sum of £6 6s. per annum as rental for such buildings, and, further, that the military authorities should keep the building in a good state of repair, Mr. Key having now the sole right of supplying malt liquors at contract prices to the 5/68th Regimental District; will he say whether such purchase was made and a sum of only £12 12s. paid (two years' rent), the contract being cancelled without any further payment being made to Mr. Key; and, if so, what action he is taking in the matter with a view to a settlement of the same.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Haldane.) This matter is now being investigated.

  Ammunition Trains.
  VISCOUNT TURNOUR: To ask the Secretary of State for War whether field officers are required to command units of ammunition columns and field parks in time of war; and, if not, what employment will be found in war time for field officers of Militia garrrison companies which have been converted into ammunition train, in accordance with the new scheme for the formation of an expeditionary force.
  (Answered by Air. Secretary Haldane.) I can only repeat the reply given to the hon. and gallant Member for the Widnes Division of South-West Lancaster in July last,†viz. that this and other questions affecting the Militia artillery are receiving consideration.

  Cavalry Regiment in Scotland.
  MR. YOUNGER: To ask the Secretary of State for War whether, in view of the fact that during the past ten years the sum of £9,160,663 has been spent on barracks in England, £1,990,903 in Ireland, and only £242,124 in Scotland, he will reconsider his
  † See (4) Debates, clxi., 175.

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  decision not to provide in next year's Estimates for the proper accommodation of at least one cavalry regiment in Scotland.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Haldane.) I cannot prejudge a Question which belongs to next year's Estimates, and the Answer to which may have to be determined by considerations of urgency as regards services to be provided for.

  Canteen and Mess Co operative Society.
  MR. LEA: To ask the Secretary of State for War whether he is aware that on the occasion of Sir Leslie Rundle's order to the Northern Command with regard to the Canteen and Mess Cooperative Society being revoked by the War Office authorities, travellers and servants of this society were acquainting officers in the command of the action the War Office had adopted two days before this was communicated to General Rundle; and what steps he proposes to take in the matter.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Haldane.) The Army Council have expressed their regret to General Rundle that the notification of the action to be taken in reference to the order in question accidentally reached the Canteen and Mess Co-operative Society before the official letter to the Northern Command was actually dispatched.
  MR. LEA: To ask the Secretary of State for War for what reason the War Office authorities made the General Commanding-in-Chief in the Northern Command withdraw an order, in accordance with regulations, which he gave in August last, as to units in his command not dealing with the Canteen and Mess Co-operative Society; whether he is aware that this society is not a co-operative society in the true sense of the word, that it has been formed by Army officers, amongst whom Sir Edward Ward, the present Permanent Under-Secretary of
  40
  State for War, took a prominent part, and that it is now being run by Army officers on full pay; and whether he will consider, having regard to the benefit of the soldier and the advantage of the taxpayer, the advisability of preventing Army officers from using their influence in competing in business with ordinary mercantile firms for the supplies to military canteens and coffee shops.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Haldane.) The order of the General Officer Commanding-in-Chief, Northern Command, was issued on the assumption that the operations of the Canteen and Mess Co-operative Society were not carried on in accordance with the conditions under which the society professed to transact business. Though one legal opinion favoured that assumption, two others held a contrary view. It was consequently decided to refer the matter for further legal opinion. Meanwhile, pending the receipt of advice of counsel, the General Officer Commanding-in-Chief was directed to withdraw the order, as it was manifestly unjust to prejudge the case by prohibiting the troops from dealing with the society. Moreover, the order was not in agreement with the spirit of the regulations, which allows officers commanding units to conduct their canteens in the manner they consider most advantageous to the soldier. It appears from the rules of the society that it is a co-operative society, registered under the Industrial and Provident Societies Act, and is a member of the Co-operative Union. Sir Edward Ward was until 1899 on the committee of management, but neither now nor at any time has he had any pecuniary interest in this society. The committee of management consists of twenty-four members, of whom fifteen are on the active list, but they receive no remuneration for their work, and none of those on the active list holds any shares in the society. The constitution and operations of the society do not appear to be such as to be detrimental either to the soldier

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  or to the taxpayer. The settled policy is to leave the soldier free to derive the same benefits from co-operative methods as are enjoyed by civilians.

  Military v. Civilian Musicians.
  MR. O'GRADY: To ask the Secretary of State for War whether he is aware that a large number of professional civilian musicians are out of employment as a result of the competition of military bandsmen; whether he is aware that, in London alone, 400 civilian musicians are thus deprived of earning a livelihood; and, having regard to the fact that no other branch of the service is permitted to neglect their military duties to enter into competition with civilian ratepayers, and in view of the hardship arising from these circumstances, whether he will issue an order that the regulations respecting military duties shall apply equally to bandsmen as to other parts of the service.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Haldane.) I have no means of testing the accuracy of the figures mentioned in the Question, but, as I explained on the 14th June last in answer to a Question put by the hon. Member for South Belfast,† the existing rules have been devised to prevent unfair competition, and I do not propose to make any change in them.

  Cumberland Militia.
  MR. FIENNES: To ask the Secretary of State for War if he will state the number of officers and men in the 3rd Border (Cumberland) Militia, and the number of officers and men in the 4th Border (Cumberland) Militia; and what is the strength of the permanent staff kept up for these two battalions.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Haldane.) The numbers are as follows:—3rd Border Regiment: Officers, 8; Non-Commissioned Officers and men, 432; total, 440 (excluding permanent staff); 4th Border Regiment, Officers 10; Non-
  † See (4) Debates, clviii., 1119.
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  Commissioned Officers and men 209; total 219 (excluding permanent staff). Permanent Staff, 3rd Border Regiment, Officers and men 22; 4th Border Regiment, Officers and men 23.

  Reinstatement of Evicted Holdings.
  MR. FETHERSTONHAUGH: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland how many evicted tenants have been restored to their former holdings, or have had now holdings allotted to them by the Estates Commissioners; in how many cases have holdings so restored or allotted been sold by the persons to whom they were restored or allotted before or very shortly after they got possession; in any such cases have grants of public money been made to enable the evicted tenant to stock the land or rebuild; and who will be liable to repay such advances, the vendor or the purchaser, and how are such advances, if at all, secured.
  (Answered by Mr. Bryce.) The Estates Commissioners inform me that the number of evicted tenants whom they had reinstated or provided with new holdings up to 31st October, 1906, is 161. The Commissioners have no information as to the number of cases in which the holdings have been sold since the purchasers got possession. In any case in which an advance is made for the improvement of a holding, by building or otherwise, the amount of such advance is repaid by the purchase annuity. In any case in which a grant is made for the purchase of stock or other similar object the amount of the grant is made a charge on the holding in the event of the purchaser disposing of such holding within a period of five years.

  Listowel Sitting of the Land Commission.
  MR. FLAVIN: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he can state the number of applicants awaiting to have fair rent cases heard before the Land Commission at Listowel; and whether he

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  can state when the Land Commission propose to hold their next sitting at Listowel.
  (Answered by Mr. Bryce.) The Land Commission inform me that there are but six applications to fix fair rents from the rural district of Listowel that have not yet been listed for hearing, and in these cases the originating notices were all received since the 1st of July last. The date of the next Sub-Commission sitting for the disposal of these cases has not yet been arranged, but the cases will probably be listed for hearing early next year.

  Listowel Gun Licence.
  MR. FLAVIN: To ask the Chief Secretary the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he can state if Mr. Michael Cronin, of Finuge, Listowel, has applied for a gun licence; and, if so, whether the licence to carry arms will be granted.
  (Answered by Mr. Bryce.) I am informed that Mr. Cronin has applied for a licence to keep a gun, and that the resident magistrate of the district, in the exercise of his discretion, has refused the application.

  Spitzbergen Mining Rights.
  MR. J. D. WHITE (Dumbartonshire): To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what are the international arrangements, if any, with reference to Spitzbergen; what is the nature of the titles under which companies formed for mining and other purposes hold concessions of territory there; and what is the nature and extent of these concessions.
  (Answered by Secretary Sir Edward Grey.) Spitzbergen does not, so far as His Majesty's Government are aware, form the subject of any international arrangements, no country having asserted any rights of sovereignity over the island. His Majesty's Government have, therefore, no cognizance of any territorial concessions in Spitzbergen.

  Royal Canal, Dublin.
  MR. FIELD: To ask the President of the Board of Trade whether he will take steps to compel the Midland Great Western Railway to have the Broadstone (Dublin) branch of the Royal Canal properly dredged and put in proper navigable order, so that boats can discharge their full load of sand or bricks, lime, or peat, as at present only half loads can be conveyed on this section owing to the way it is being silted up; whether he is aware that this part of the canal is the most convenient part of the system for supplying the north side of Dublin with such materials; whether the Board of Control have any power to have this work carried out; and, if so, whether he will press them to discharge their duty.
  (Answered by Mr. Lloyd-George.) The Board of Trade have no powers which would enable them to take the action suggested with regard to the railway company. The Board of Control, as the hon. Member is no doubt aware, is appointed by the Irish Government, and I have no jurisdiction over them.

  African Surveys.
  SIR CHAELES DILKE: To ask the Secretary to the Treasury whether any public statement has been made of the principle upon which Colonial surveys in all parts of Africa are being carried out, as reported by the Colonial Survey Committee; and whether information as to the distribution of charge between Army Votes and Crown Colonies, the Government of the Soudan, and the Egyptian Government must be sought from the Colonial Office, Foreign Office, and War Office.
  (Answered by Mr. McKenna): No public statement has yet been made of the principle governing Colonial surveys in Africa, but it was with the intention of securing economy, system, and expedition in such undertakings that, the Colonial Surrey Committee, to which my

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  right hon. friend has referred, was formed. With regard to the second part of his Question, the cost of the topographical survey of the Orange River Colony is estimated at a total of £18,500, and of this a sum of £9,000 has been paid by the Colony and the rest is defrayed from Army Votes. The reconnaissance's in the Cape Colony are matters of ordinary military administration, and no charge arises. In other British African possessions where surveys are in progress, the cost is defrayed from the funds of the Colony or Protectorate concerned. In the case of the Anglo-Egyptian Soudan, the cost of the surveys is defrayed by the Soudanese Government.

  Clerks to Surveyors of Taxes.
  MR. SLOAN: To ask the Secretary to the Treasury whether, in view of the fact that the grounds of refusal of the Treasury to hold an inquiry into the case of the clerks to the surveyors of taxes was based on the grounds that all the facts wore fully known, and that no further inquiry would affect the judgment of the Treasury officials, he is aware it is an inquiry by a Select Committee of the House of Commons that is sought by the surveyors and their clerks; and whether, as the case of such clerks is better known to the surveyors than to the Treasury officials, and that they emphasise the hardship to the public that their confidential returns and claims of repayment of income tax should be dealt with by non-civil servants, he will, in the interests of the public themselves, consider the advisability of an independent inquiry being held by a Committee of the House of Commons similar to that granted to the postal officials.
  (Answered by Mr. McKenna.) I see no grounds for such an inquiry.

  Ecclesiastical Commissioners' Property in Hereford.
  MR. EDMUND LAMB: To ask the hon. Member
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  for East Bristol, as representing the Ecclesiastical Commissioners, what is the acreage of farm lands held by the Commissioners in the county of Hereford; what is the rental for the same lands; what is the net income from the same lands after deducting all expenses of management; and what acreage is not let at the present time.
  (Answered by Mr. Hobhouse.) The total area of the Ecclesiastical Commissioners' lands in the county of Hereford is 2,950 acres, the gross rental amounts to £3,735 16s., and the net annual income is £2,716. There are nineteen acres of woodland in hand. These figures include cottages and some other property which would not come under the description of farms, but such property forms a small proportion only of the whole.

  Church Estate Commissioners and Small Holdings.
  MR. WEDGWOOD: To ask the hon. Member for East Bristol, as representing the Church Estates Commissioners, whether the Commissioners own the whole or practically the whole land in any parishes; and, if so, what these parishes are, and what provision they make for small holdings in these parishes; and whether, if none is made, they can initiate or encourage the movement in such parishes.
  (Answered by Mr. Hobhouse.) There are eighteen parishes in agricultural districts in which the Ecclesiastical Commissioners own three-fourths or more of the whole area. The schedule given below shows the names of these parishes, the extent of the Commissioners' lands in each and the holdings into which they are divided. As explained in my written Answer to the hon. Member's Question of the 13th inst,† the Commissioners have not adopted any system for facilitating the creation of small holdings, but they put no hindrance in the way of any such movement and in suitable cases facilitate the purchase by tenants of these holdings.
  † See (4) Debates, clxiv, 1278.

  Schedule.

  Name of Parish.

  Area of Parish.

  Area of Ecclesiastical Commissioners' Lands.

  How Divided

  Acres.

  Acres.

  Raskelf

  4,280

  3,700

  3,030 acres in 12 holdings exceeding 100 acres.

  450 acres in 11 holdings between 20 and 80 acres.

  70 acres in 26 holdings between 1 and 10 acres.

  80 acres in allotments and cottages.

  70 acres woodland in hand.

  Leighton Bromswold

  3,060

  2,990

  2,845 acres in 6 holdings of over 190 acres.

  15 acres in 4 holdings between 1 and 10 acres.

  50 acres in allotments and cottages.

  80 acres woodland in hand.

  Bishopstone

  3,385

  2,898

  2,806 acres in 3 holdings of over 500 acres.

  73 acres in 2 holdings between 10 and 50 acres.

  8 acres in 4 holdings between 1 and 10 acres.

  11 acres in allotments and cottages.

  Marton in the Forest

  2,466

  2,370

  2,210 acres in 14 holdings of over 100 acres.

  160 acres in 3 holdings between 30 and 80 acres.

  Horning

  2,600

  2,370

  2,210 acres in 4 holdings of over 150 acres.

  130 acres in 2 holdings between 50 and 100 acres.

  5 acres in 2 holdings between 1 and 10 acres.

  25 acres in allotments.

  Scampton

  2,200

  2,120

  2,025 acres in 4 holdings of over 400 acres.

  27 acres in 5 holdings between 1 and 10 acres.

  68 acres in allotments, cow pastures, and cottages.

  Pershore St. Andrew

  1,512

  1,500

  720 acres in 3 holdings of over 150 acres.

  275 acres in 11 holdings between 10 and 60 acres.

  105 acres in 36 holdings between 1 and 10 acres.

  175 acres in allotments, cottages, &c.

  225 acres woodland in hand.

  Name of Parish.

  Area of Parish.

  Area of Ecclesiastical Commissioners' Lands.

  How Divided

  Acres.

  Acres.

  Colne Rogers

  1,574

  1,455

  The whole in 4 holdings of over 100 acres.

  Broxholme

  1,350

  1,250

  1,240 acres in 3 holdings of over 200 acres.

  10 acres in 1 holding.

  Stratford sub Castle

  1,480

  1,154

  1,128 acres in 2 holdings of over 500 acres.

  26 acres in 13 holdings under 10 acres.

  Archdeacon Newton

  1,040

  1,040

  The whole in 4 farms of 190 acres and upwards.

  Greetwell

  1,223

  1,040

  970 acres in 1 holding.

  70 acres damaged ground (ironstone workings).

  Binegar

  1,159

  1,010

  706 acres in 3 holdings of over 100 acres.

  260 acres in 5 holdings between 10 and 50 acres.

  36 acres in 27 holdings under 10 acres.

  8 acres woodland and disused quarry in hand.

  Ampney St. Mary

  1,288

  988

  1 holding together with land in adjoining parish.

  Halloughton

  988

  935

  820 acres in 5 holdings of over 100 acres.

  50 acres in 1 holding.

  17 acres in 3 holdings between 1 and 10 acres.

  48 acres woodland in hand.

  Asgarby

  792

  792

  The whole in 3 holdings of over 150 acres.

  Grenton

  826

  788

  787 acres in 3 holdings over 100 acres.

  1 acre in 3 cottage holdings.

  Winnall

  531

  502

  385 acres in 1 holding.

  50 acres in 1 holding.

  35 acres in 2 holdings over 10 acres.

  32 acres in allotments.

  Wadhurst Murderer's Reprieve.
  MR. COURTHOPE: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether Stevens, who was sentenced to death for the murder of his mother at Wadhurst, was reprieved owing to extenuating circumstances or owing to insufficiency of evidence; if the former, what were the extenuating circumstances; if the latter, on what grounds the prisoner is detained in penal servitude.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Gladstone.) It would not be in accordance with constitutional practice that I should state the grounds on which I advised His Majesty to respite the capital sentence in this case and to commute it to penal servitude for life, but I may say that after the sentence had been respited I instituted certain further inquiries, which I could not make before, into facts of the case, and when these inquiries were completed I carefully revised the whole of the case in consultation with the Judge. In the end, I came to the conclusion that there was no doubt whatever as to the prisoner's guilt, and that I could advise no further commutation of sentence.

  Assistant Inspectors of Factories.
  MR. STUART: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he is now able to state the improvements he is prepared to make in the conditions of assistant inspectors of factories.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Gladstone.) Yes, Sir. In view of the more important duties which are about to be laid on the assistant class, the Treasury have at my request sanctioned certain improvements in the pay of that class. The minimum salary is to be raised from £100 to £110, while the whole body of forty assistants will be divided into two grades, each containing twenty men. The lower grade will be on the scale of £110 per annum, rising by £5 per annum to £150, and the higher grade on the scale of £150, rising by £5 per annum to £200. This arrangement will supersede the ten special allowances of £25 per annum each which are at present made to ten of the assistants. Sanction has also been given to an arrangement whereby an assistant of exceptional ability may occasionally be promoted into the ranks of the
  52
  inspectorate proper by means of an examination limited to the subjects relating to his duties without being-required to compete against outside candidates in the ordinary factory inspectors' examination. These new arrangements will take effect on the 1st of April next. This announcement will, I hope, give satisfaction to the assistants, and stimulate them to prove themselves worthy of the heavier tasks and greater responsibilities which they will be called upon to undertake.

  Motor Skidding Accidents.
  MR. COURTHOPE: TO ask the President of the Local Government Board whether, in order to avoid accidents owing to the skidding of rubber-tyred wheels, he will include within Clause 7 of the Heavy Motor Car Order, 1904, vehicles with wheels having wooden tyres, which do not skid.
  (Answered by Mr. John Burns.) Article VII. of the Order limits the speed at which a heavy motor car can be driven on a highway to eight miles an hour, but contains provisoes which allow a higher rate of speed in certain cases. I presume the proposal is that the second of these provisoes, which applies to cases where a car has all its wheels fitted with pneumatic tyres or with tyres made of a soft or elastic material, shall be extended to cars with wooden tyres. I am not, however, at present prepared to give effect to this suggestion.

  Death Duties Problems.
  MR. SEARS: To ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer whether the Board of Inland Revenue, in making the statement that in the case of the estate valued at £132,300 in 1898, and floated with a capital of £450,000 in 1900, the Board had no title to reopen the matter on the strength of developments which took place two years after the death, took into their consideration that such developments disclosed the fact that the estate had been underassessed at the time of death, and also their own statements to this House that the power of the Board to recover under assessed death duty is not limited as to time, and that, had the purchase been effected sooner, the valuation would have been corrected; can he explain the apparent contradiction between the

  53
  statements made by the Board and say why no action was taken to recover in this case in which a false return had been made, seeing that according to their own statement the Board possessed the power.
  (Answered by Mr. Asquith.) It is even now impossible for anyone to say that if the property had been sold in 1898, instead of in 1900, it could have fetched more than the sum at which it was valued, the property being of a kind liable to violent fluctuations. The Board adhere to their statement that in this particular case they were precluded from reopening the settlement of 1898, by reason of the circumstances which attended the making of it.
  MR. SEARS: To ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer, in the case of the estate valued at £132,300 in 1898 and floated with a capital of £450,000 in 1900, whether he is aware that the prospectus of the company disclosed the fact that a false return had been made at the time of death and that the Estate Duty had been under-assessed to the amount of at least £20,000; has his attention also been drawn to the report of the chartered accountant quoted in the prospectus, from which it appears that the profits made were, in round figures, 1895 £27,000, 1896 £31,000, 1897 £33,000, 1899 £28,000, and 1900 £29,000; will he state whether Income Tax was paid OH the sums named; if not, whether action was taken in this case similar to Case 4, page 33, in the Appendix to the Report of the Departmental Committee on Income Tax, 1904–5; and, if not, why not.
  (Answered by Mr. Asquith.) All the facts were fully disclosed at the time of the death, and there is no ground whatever for the. suggestion that a false Return was made. The prospectus issued in 1900 is not before the Board of Inland Revenue, but in any case they are not at liberty to discuss Returns of Income Tax under Schedule D with persons not directly concerned with the Returns.

  Army Meat and Forage Contracts.
  MR. FIELD: To ask the Secretary of State for War whether he is prepared to reconsider the terms of contract tenders for the supply of meat to the
  54
  troops and forage to the horses stationed in the three Kingdoms so as to enable j the supplies to be of Home produce.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Haldane.) No, Sir.

  Barrack Construction.
  SIR WILLIAM BULL: To ask the Secretary of State for War whether he is aware that the accounts of several builders and contractors for works completed for the War Department, prior to the appointment of the Director of Barrack Construction in March 1905, still remain unpaid; whether until the appointment of that official, such delays were unknown; and will steps be taken to expedite payment to the builders.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Haldane.) A few delays have occurred from time to time in the payment of such bills, but only when disputes have arisen on technical points of construction work or when legal questions have arisen in connection with the contracts.

  Public Trustee Bill.
  SIR HOWARD VINCENT: To ask the Prime Minister if, in view of his declaration that the Government were exceedingly desirous of passing the Public Trustee Bill, and that he fully intended to pass it this Session, and having regard to the almost daily record of fraud to the prejudice of the poor and ignorant, he can now name a day for the Committee Stage, bearing in mind that the session is fast flying away.
  (Answered by Sir H. Campbell-Bannerman.) No, Sir; I cannot yet name a day for the Committee stage, but the hon. and gallant Member may reply upon it that the Government will do their utmost to pass the Bill this session.

  QUESTIONS IN THE HOUSE.

    Mr. Bucknill's Report.
    VISCOUNT TURNOTJR: I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies if more than one copy of the evidence, given before Mr. Commissioner Bucknill, is in the possession of the Colonial Office.
    THE UNDER-SECRETARY FOR THE COLONIES (Mr. CHURCHILL,): The Papers in question are in duplicate. There is the original despatch relating to the Bucknill Report, and one copy of it and its enclosures. Both are and have been since their arrival in England in the Colonial Office, and no one has seen them except official persons and the hon. Member for Berkshire. But I was not aware until this morning that there were in fact two typewritten copies. I greatly regret that by an Answer I gave on the 19th instant I should have misled the House upon this point;† and I am obliged to the noble Lord for having by his Question enabled me to discover and to correct my mistake.
    VISCOUNT TURNOUR: I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies if the witnesses were sworn before giving evidence before Mr. Commissioner Bucknill.
    MR. CHURCHILL: The Secretary of State, as he stated in another place on Wednesday last,‡ understands that the witnesses were not sworn.

    Tanjong Pagar Dock Award.
    MR. WEDGWOOD: I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies, with reference to the Tanjong Pagar Dock Company award, whether the shares in this company were quoted at $240 when expropriation by the Government was first decided on; whether the Government was offered the shares at $700 by the company; and whether the arbitration award of Lord St. Aldwyn forces the Government to pay $783 per share, equivalent to $880, comparing the present value of the dollar with its value two years ago.
    MR. CHURCHILL: I believe that the figure given in the first part of the hon. Member's Question is approximately correct. I do not understand that any formal offer was made by the company, but $700 was mentioned by the directors in conversation with the Governor. The award works out at about $755 per share, which, at 2s. 4d. the dollar, would, as the
    † See (4) Debates, clxv., 394.
    ‡ See (4) Debates, clxv., 729.
    56
    hon. Member suggests, be equivalent to $880 at 2s.
    MR. WEDGWOOD: I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies, with reference to the Tanjong Pagar Dock award, whether, on 21st June last, the shares of this company were quoted at $485 per $100 share for sellers; and that the award, declared on 14th July, involves the Straits Settlements in a liability for the purchase of those shares £1,000,000 in excess of their total value as at that quoted price.
    MR. CHURCHILL: The Secretary of State has no knowledge of the quoted price of these shares at the time mentioned by the hon. Member.
    MR. WEDGWOOD: I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies, with reference to the Tanjong Pagar Dock Company award, whether the costs of this arbitration will exceed £40,000, and of this amount how much Lord St. Aldwyn will receive; and whether this House will have an opportunity of discussing this arbitration.
    MR. CHURCHILL: Yes, Sir. The cost of the arbitration will be largely in excess of £40,000. I am unable at present to state the amount exactly. Lord St. Aldwyn received a fee of £5,750 for his services as umpire. The latter part of the hon. Member's Question should be addressed to the Prime Minister.
    MR. WEDGWOOD: How long did the arbitration take to sit at Singapore? How many witnesses who appeared before the arbitration came from England?
    MR. SPEAKER: Notice should be given of a Question involving such details.
    MR. WEDGWOOD: I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether the total capital of the Tanjong Pagar Dock Company was $3,700,000, on which 12 per cent, per annum was paid until the Government decided to expropriate the property; whether the award of Lord St. Aldwyn involves a payment of about 28,500,000 appreciated dollars for this property, or

    57
    sixty-five years purchase of annual dividend; and whether he is aware that Governor Sir John Anderson stated, on 13th February, 1905, that fourteen years purchase would be the usual rate in Singapore.
    MR. CHURCHILL: The figures given by the hon. Member are correct, except that 12 per cent. was the smallest dividend paid in recent years, nor did the dividends accurately measure the value of the property, and I may remind him that among the assets taken over by the Colonial Government is a considerable amount of land not required for the purposes of the company's business. I presume that the hon. Member, in the last part of the Question, is referring to the Governor's despatch No. 23 in Cd. 3249. He stated in conversation with the directors that 7 per cent. was the ordinary rate of interest in Singapore, and that expropriation on that basis would mean fourteen years purchase of their ordinary dividend.

    New Hebrides.
    SIR GILBERT PAEKER: I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies if he can now state the character of the appointments to be made under the Anglo-French agreement in relation to the New Hebrides; and when the terms of the agreement will be laid.
    MR. CHURCHILL: The only new appointment to be made by His Majesty's Government specifically mentioned in the New Hebrides is that of the British Judge in the Joint Court, and no decision has yet been taken as to the number and exact character of the subordinate appointments which will be necessary. The convention was laid before Parliament on the 8th instant.

    Gambling in the Federated Malay States.
    MR. CLAUDE HAY: I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies if he will describe the steps His Majesty's Government are now taking to abolish the system by which the Government of the Federated Malay States are deriving an average annual revenue of $3,000,000 from gambling houses.
    MR. CHURCHILL: An enactment is now before the State Councils which
    58
    will enable the residents to prohibit gambling in districts to be specified by proclamation. When the time comes for re-letting the gambling farm, it is proposed to prohibit gambling in non-mining districts and restrict the hours during which it is permitted in the mining districts and towns. It is hoped that, if these measures are successful, it will in a few years be possible to extend the prohibition to the whole of the States.

    Repatriation of Chinese Coolies.
    MAJOR SEELY: I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether His Majesty's Government intend to continue payment for the repatriation of Chinese indentured coolies at their own request out of Imperial funds after self-government has been given to the Transvaal and until all the indentured coolies have left that country.
    MR. CHURCHILL: The institution of a system of State-aided repatriation of Chinese coolies was designed to mitigate the objections which might justly be urged against the conditions of their employment, by affording at all times a ready path of escape from these conditions. So long as those conditions prevail His Majesty's Government would desire that the means of escape should be preserved unimpaired; and there is no intention on the part of His Majesty's Government to-withdraw the support they have given to them. But the arrangements for terminating the existing system of Chinese labour in the Transvaal as expeditiously as possible must be considered as a whole when that Colony is endowed with responsible government; and no single part of those arrangements can be determined separately in anticipation.
    MAJOR SEELY: Are we to understand that even after self government has been given, so long as the conditions of Chinese labour may be regarded as servile, the Government will pay from Imperial funds the expenses of those who desire to go home?
    MR. CHURCHILL: The State-aided repatriation on the part of the Imperial Government is intended to be coincident with the existence of the evil conditions out of which the policy originally arose.
    MR. ALDEN: I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he is aware that at a meeting held in Johannesburg on 22nd November it was resolved, by 5,000 to 3, that the proper course for remedying the evils incident on Chinese labour was to repatriate the Chinese coolies on the expiration of their contracts; and whether the Government has signified its approval of this method of dealing with the question.
    MR. CHURCHILL: I have seen such a statement in the newspapers. The policy of His Majesty's Government in regard to Chinese labour has been fully made known both in method and intention. It is not always necessary for official comment to be made on behalf of the Secretary of State for the Colonies upon the resolutions or proceedings of public meetings; such a practice would involve an extension of our duties which could scarcely fail to be laborious and inconvenient. Least of all need such comments be made now when the grant of responsible government is about to afford a regular and effective expression to public opinion in the Transvaal through the agency of a representative Assembly.

    Ex-President Steyn and the Orange River Franchise.
    MR. ALDEN: I beg to ask the Undersecretary of State for the Colonies whether he is aware that ex-President Steyn has expressed the opinion that it would be wise to follow the example of Cape Colony in granting the franchise to the better class natives on an education and property basis; and whether, in view of this fact, he will consider the advisability of consulting the leading men of all parties in the Orange River Colony as to the possibility of inserting a limited native franchise in the new constitution.
    MR. CHURCHILL: Such an expression of opinion by Mr. Steyn would not, in view of the terms of peace, justify His Majesty's Government in inserting a native franchise, however limited, in the new constitution, but it affords some ground for hoping that the action of the future colonial Parliament will show a proper recognition of the principle "equal lights for all civilised men."

    Chinese Coolies in Johannesburg,
    MR. MACPHERSON: I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies is he aware that Chinese coolies who have been imported into Johannesburg on special licence, referring only to work in the mines, have often been employed of late in various handicrafts, such as carpentering, to the exclusion of white workmen, whose prices may possibly be higher on such work; and, if so, what steps does he propose to take to prevent the recurrence of such incidents.
    MR. CHURCHILL: I have received no information of the kind suggested by the hon. Member, but if any evidence to that effect is brought to the notice of the Secretary of State he will communicate with the Governor on the subject.

    Juvenile Offenders at Birmingham.
    MR. WEDGWOOD: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether the working of the children's court at Birmingham has proved satisfactory in keeping children under sixteen out of prison; in what other places children's courts have been established; and if the Home Office will facilitate the starting of these courts and the payment of probation officers.
    THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE HOME DEPARTMENT (Mr. GLADSTONE,): Yes, Sir. The results of the working of the children's court in Birmingham have been most satisfactory in reducing the number of children committed to prison. The number of children under sixteen received in prison from Birmingham was eighty-four during the twelve months before the court was established and only twenty-one in the first twelve months after its establishment. I have already, in reply to a Question by my hon. friend the Member for Berwickshire on 30th May last,† given full particulars of the action taken by county and borough benches for the separate treatment of children. I have been doing my utmost by regulations in the metropolitan police courts and by circulars to other courts to promote the special and separate treatment of children's cases, and I hope soon to introduce
    † See (4) Debates, clviii., 389.

    61
    a Bill to facilitate the release of offenders on probation and the payment of probation officers.
    MR. WEDGWOOD: Will the right hon. Gentleman encourage the formation of a corps of probation officers?
    MR. GLADSTONE: I would suggest my hon. friend should wait for the introduction of the Bill.

    Administration of the Shop Hours Act in Glamorgan.
    MR. KEIR HARDIE (Merthyr Tydvil): I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he is aware that orders made under the Shop Hours Act, 1904, are frequently violated and are allowed to go unpunished owing to the difficulty of ascertaining the prosecuting authority; whether the Standing Joint Committee of the Glamorgan County Council refuses to allow the police to take action in such cases in Merthyr; and whether any means can be taken in the way of instructing the police or otherwise to have the provisions of the Act more rigidly carried into effect.
    MR. GLADSTONE: No representations have been made to me to this effect, nor have I received any relating to the enforcement of the closing order made by the Merthyr Tydvil Town Council. No special duty with regard to enforcing such orders is laid upon the police by the Shop Hours Acts. On the contrary, power is given to the authority which makes the order to appoint inspectors and those inspectors are invested with special powers of entry for the purpose, such as are not possessed by the police. It is also open to any person aggrieved to institute proceedings.

    Surrender of Life Policies.
    MR. MYER: I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade whether, in view of the amounts which have accrued to life insurance companies in consequence of the number of lapsed policies and for which discontinuances the companies make no allowance in their periodical valuation to the Board of Trade under the Act of 1870, neither are their tables for premiums based in part upon the average secessions, but wholly upon the rates of mortality, he will cause an
    62
    inquiry to be held into the whole subject with a view to legislation in the immediate future having for its subject the establishment of a legal surrender value of life policies.
    THE PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD OF TRADE (Mr. LLOYD-GEORGE, Carnarvon Boroughs): I do not think that it is necessary to institute an official inquiry with a view to legislation in the direction indicated by my hon. friend, but if he will place before me any information in his possession on the subject I will see that the matter is care fully considered.

    Sir Francis Hopwood.
    MR. D. A. THOMAS: I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade when the Permanent Secretary of the Board of Trade returned from South Africa; and when he fully resumed his official duties.
    MR. LLOYD-GEORGE: Sir Francis Hopwood returned from South Africa in July. Since that time he has been fully occupied with official duties.

    North Glamorgan Official Receiver.
    MR. D. A. THOMAS: I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade whether Mr. Ellis Owen, the newly appointed official receiver for the Morthyr district, was for some years connected with the Press at Carnarvon and at present occupies the position of manager and editor of the Brecon and Radnor Express; and whether he has had any legal training or experience in accountancy, and what other qualifications he has for the post.
    MR. LLOYD-GEORGE: Mr. Ellis Owen, the newly-appointed official receiver of the North Glamorgan District, who will give all his time to the duties of the post, has been for about six years manager and editor of the Brecon and Radnor Express. He had previously been associated in the management of other newspaper offices. In these posts of management he has had a good deal of practical, and in one instance of exceptional, experience in accountancy. He is a man of undoubted business aptitudes and I find that he is described by the leading Welsh Conservative paper as "an exceptionally keen business man."

    63
    In my opinion the experience which a business man acquires in dealing with affairs and with men may in some cases be an even better qualification for an official receiver than a legal education. I have satisfied myself that Mr. Owen is fully qualified for the post to which he has been appointed, and I am glad to observe that the leading South Wales papers of both Parties also take that view.
    MR. KEIR HARDIE: Has Mr. Owen had any business experience outside the newspaper world?
    MR. LLOYD-GEORGE: Certainly he has, and he is generally recognised as a very keen man of business.

    "Shepperton" Assault Case.
    MR. SUMMERBELL: I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade if his attention has been called, by Mr. Allison Wood, of Sunderland, Secretary to the British Shipmasters' and Officers' Protection Society, to the case of Mr. John Annison, of Sunderland, captain of the steamship "Shepperton," who was seriously assaulted at Sulina by two members of his crew, and that, on his appealing to the British consul at that place for redress, the latter stated that he had no jurisdiction to deal with the matter, basing such statement on a letter of instructions, dated 11th June, 1906, 1045M (official letter, No. 11,931); if so, would he state the contents of such letter and the justification for sending the same; and why no action was taken by the consul in accordance with the provisions of the Merchant Shipping Act, 1904 (Section 480, and Part XIII., of the Act).
    MR. LLOYD-GEORGE: Yes, my attention has been called to the case to which my hon. friend refers. It appears that a dispute arose between the master of the "Shepperton" and two members of his crew whose wages he proposed to reduce, and in connection with this dispute one of the men assaulted the master on shore and in the presence only of local witnesses. The British Vice-Consul considered that the matter was one for the local authorities before whom he assisted the master to lay the case. The Board of Trade letter referred to in the question had no bearing on cases
    64
    such as this and dealt with the question of the imprisonment of seaman pending trial. As regards the question of action under the Merchant Shipping Act, I think the Vice-Consul was justified in deciding that the assault did not require to be dealt with under Section 480. The case was not one of such gravity as to require Part XIII. of the Merchant Shipping Act, 1894, to be brought into operation, seeing that the case could be more conveniently dealt with by a local court.
    MR. SUMMERBELL: Why did the consul refuse to take action?
    MR. LLOYD-GEORGE: He came to the conclusion it was a proper case for the local authorities.

    Hendon and the Telephone.
    MR. GIBB: I beg to ask the Postmaster-General whether he can say when telephonic facilities will be extended to Hendon.
    THE POSTMASTER-GENERAL (Mr. SYDNEY BUXTON, Tower Hamlets, Poplar): I regret that I cannot at present say when I shall be able to extend telephonic facilities to Hendon. One obstacle— though not the only one—is the high charge which the urban district council desires to make for reinstatement of paving, etc., after the underground wires have been laid.

    Post Offices on Licensed Premises.
    MR. FERENS: I beg to ask the Postmaster-General whether there are any, and, if so, how many instances, in which a branch post office is established upon premises where a grocer's licence or a licence for the sale of intoxicants for consumption off the premises is also held; and whether, in all future appointments, of branch or sub-postmasters, a condition will be made that intoxicating liquors shall not be sold upon the premises where any business of the Post Office is transacted.
    MR. SYDNEY BUXTON: A Return of the number of post offices, telegraph offices, and public telephone offices situated on licensed premises has been laid on the Table of the House. It is the rule that sub-postmasters should not hold a licence, and it is only when the public convenience or

    65
    the efficiency of the service would other wise suffer that exceptions to the rule are allowed.

    Subsidies to the Irish Agricultural Organisation Society.
    MR. DILLON: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether his attention has been drawn to the alterations made in Clauses 16 and 30 of the Bill for the establishment of an Agricultural and Technical Department in Ireland (1899) with the special object of making it impossible for the Department to subsidise out of public funds, either directly or indirectly, the Irish Agricultural Organisation Society or any other private association; and what steps the Irish Government propose to take to secure that the will of Parliament is carried out in this matter.
    THE CHIEF SECRETARY FOR IRE LAND (Mr. BRYCE,): My attention has been called to the questions which have arisen in respect of the alterations made in the Bill of 1899 referred to in the Question, but I have no personal recollections bearing on the subject, and no special or official data for enabling me to form an opinion upon it. As regards the legal question involved, I have asked for the opinion of the Irish law officers.
    MR. DILLON: I desire to ask whether the attention of the right hon. Gentleman has been called to the fact that this is a question involving a matter of policy, whether the alterations made in the clauses of the Bill wore not made with the special object of making it impossible for the Department to subsidise the Irish Agricultural Organisation Society; and whether he would not hold himself bound by those alterations not to sanction such action on behalf of the Department.
    MR. BRYCE: I said I did not know the precise point, but I understand the point the right hon. Gentleman raises is one which is disputed by those who are parties, viz., whether the alteration made had that intention. If it has that intention the question arises does the statute cover it? We have seen Acts of Parliament passed supposed to contain certain intentions, and we have seen the Court of Appeal hold that they were bound only by statute. I think I am bound by what
    66
    the meaning of the statute is, and upon that I have asked for the opinion of the law officer.
    MR. DILLON: The right hon. Gentle man has not really replied to my Question. What I ask is, whether the personal attention of the right hon. Gentleman has been called to the matter. I am speaking now not strictly on a matter of law, but of policy. I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether, in his opinion, the alterations made did not involve a pledge on behalf of the head of the Department not to give to these outsiders?
    MR. BRYCE: That is covered by my Answer. With regard to the meaning of the statute, the view I take is that the Court of Appeal decided the other day, that what was said at the time the statute was passed does not govern the statute. The statute must be interpreted as it stands.
    MR. DILLON: I am sorry to have to ask another Question. This is a matter of policy; it is not a question of legal interpretation. The Question I want to ask is this, whether the right hon. Gentleman has examined what took place at the passing of the Bill, and whether in his opinion as Minister he is not bound by the alterations to exercise his authority to prevent the Department subsidising these associations.
    MR. BRYCE: Without expressing any opinion on that—which is a matter of controversy—I do not consider my view as a matter of policy should be governed by that matter. My view of the matter of policy so far as this House is concerned must be interpreted by the Act.
    MR. FLYNN: May I ask whether this Irish Agricultural Organisation Society is not a private trading society in competition with importers and exporters, and therefore entitled to no help?
    MR. BRYCE: That raises a totally different question. It is not the question raised by the hon. Member for Mayo, and it does not arise out of the Question.
    MR. FLYNN: I shall raise this question on the Vote for the Department.
    MR. DILLON: I beg to ask Mr. Attorney-General for Ireland whether his attention has been drawn to the fact that the action of the Department of Agriculture and Technical Instruction in Ireland in subsidising the Irish Agricultural Organisation out of the public funds at its disposal is illegal; and what steps, he proposes to take to prevent the continuance of this illegal action on the part of the Department.
    THE ATTORNEY-GENERAL for IRELAND (Mr. Cherry, Liverpool, Exchange): My attention has been drawn to the action of the Department of Agriculture, and Technical Instruction in making payments out of public funds to the Irish Agricultural Organisation Society. I am aware that the legality of these payments has been questioned; but the Department, on the other hand, hold that the payments are legal. The question is one of very great importance, and a case containing a full statement of the facts is being prepared for the opinion of the law officers. This will receive full consideration from my colleague the Solicitor-General and my self.

    Teaching of Irish in Irish Schools.
    MR. BOLAND: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieu tenant of Ireland whether he is now in a position to state what action, if any, the National Board of Education propose to take on the suggestions put forward by the Coisde Gnotha of the Gaelic League for the teaching of Irish and the scale of fees.
    MR. T. L. CORBETT: Has the right hon. Gentleman sufficient knowledge of the language to be able to explain the meaning of the Gaelic words in the Question?
    MR. BRYCE: Although my knowledge of the language is, I am sorry to say, very limited, I have informed myself sufficiently of the meaning to enable me to answer the Question. I am not yet in a position to state what action, if any, the Com missioners of National Education propose to take in the matter mentioned in the Question.

    Portmagee Pier.
    MR. BOLAND: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant, of Ireland whether he is aware that the Kerry County Council has agreed to contribute a sum of £200 towards the extension of the pier at Portmagee provided that the Congested Districts Board will complete the work; and whether, in view of the fact that the pier has lately been inspected by the Boards engineer, and that the Board has previously expressed its willingness to undertake the work on condition that a subscription should be forthcoming from the landlords or other source, this under taking will now be carried out.
    MR. BRYCE: I am informed that in October, 1894, the Congested Districts Board decided that they would not undertake the extension of Portmagee pier, the cost of which was estimated at at £1,250, unless a substantial local contribution were forthcoming. The county council have now offered £200, which cannot be regarded as a substantial contribution. It was expected that a contribution would also be obtained from the authorities of Trinity College, who are not only local landlords but, as the Board understand, are in possession of the existing pier. The Board's engineer is now in communication with the county surveyor, and will shortly furnish plans and estimates for the extension, where upon the matter will be further considered by the Congested Districts Board.

    Colonel Malone's Baronstown Farms.
    MR. GINNELL: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland, if he does not favour the consolidation of grass farms in a congested neighbourhood at the public expense, will he ask the Estates Commissioners to refuse to declare the partially congested portion of the Barons town a separate estate, unless Colonel Malone sells the grass farms for the relief of the congestion.
    MR. BRYCE: I beg to refer the hon. Member to my previous Answers on this subject, in which I have stated, on the authority of the Estates Commissioners, that the grass farms on Colonel Malone's estate are held under leases or by yearly tenants, and that the Commissioners have

    69
    no power to compel lands so held to be sold to them as untenanted land. I am atone with the, Commissioners in their policy of acquiring; untenanted lands for the enlargement of uneconomic holdings, wherever that may be possible, and it is quite unnecessary that I should ask them to do what they are most anxious to do. If the hon. Member has any new facts which he desires to bring to the notice of the Commissioners I shall be happy to communicate further with them.

    Evicted Tenants.
    MR. GINNELL: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that some evicted families are still unprovided for, not owing to any defect in their claim or to want of untenanted land, but to a difficulty in making sufficient grant to enable families consisting of women to work new holdings; and, seeing that these are the families that have suffered most and whose need is greatest, will he take any steps to have their cases dealt with this season by the Commissioners.
    MR. BRYCE: The Estates Commissioners inform me that they are unable to identify any particular cases as coming within the description mentioned in the Question. The Commissioners deal with individual cases of evicted tenants after full consideration and inquiry into the merits of each case, and pay due regard to the terms of No. VI. of the Regulations of the Lord-Lieutenant, dated 13th February, 1906.

    Galway Police Sergeant.
    MR. DILLON: On behalf of the hon. Member for Galway, I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that Sergeant Walker, of the constabulary barracks in Dannuch Street, Galway, swore an information against Mr. John Lydon, a leading Nationalist in Galway, on the 12th November, and was disbelieved by the bench; that on previous occasions, within the past two years, the same sergeant swore information which was discredited in Court; and that he was removed from another district to Galway in consequence of repeated local protests expressed in this House and elsewhere; and whether the authorities will take steps to have this sergeant
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    placed in some situation where he will be under the immediate charge of a district inspector and head constable.
    MR. BRYCE: I am informed by the police authorities that Mr. John Lydon was summoned by the police for having his licensed promises open at prohibited hours, Sergeant Walker being the principal witness. As there was some conflict of testimony in regard to the exact time at which the premises were found open, the magistrates gave the accused the benefit of the doubt and dismissed the case. The County Inspector reports that it is not the case that the sergeant has sworn information which have been discredited in Court. Sergeant Walker was transferred to Galway, not because of any protests, local or otherwise, but in the interests of the public service. The Inspector-General has received reports from the local officers that Sergeant Walker is a man of excellent character and conduct, and he therefore sees no grounds to order his removal from his present station.

    Lissahully Tenantry.
    MR. SWIFT MACNEILL: I beg to; ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieu tenant of Ireland whether he is aware that the tenants in the townland of Lissahully, in Killeen, county Donegal, signed purchase agreements in March, 1905, with the Congested Districts Board of their holdings on terms of about twenty-seven years purchase of what the Board estimated to be the fair letting value of the lands, and were informed that this purchase annuity would become payable within six weeks or two months, during which period they would have to pay £4 per cent, interest on their purchase money; whether he is aware that these tenants, notwithstanding this assurance, have, since March, 1905, till the present time, been compelled to pay £4 per cent, on the purchase money which amounts to 4s. 6d. in the pound more than they were informed their purchase annuity would be, while some of these tenants who were tenant purchasers of small farms in the neighbourhood gave up their farms on the strength of the promises made by the Congested Districts Board; and whether, having regard to the hardship and expense sustained by these tenants through the failure of the Congested Districts Board to fulfil

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    their undertaking that the purchase annuity of £3 5s. per cent, would become payable within six months of the signing of the purchase agreements, and that in some cases the interest of £4 per cent, per annum would not be paid for any period however short, what are the steps which it is proposed to take to relieve them from this burden, and to give them compensation for the time during which it was borne in violation of the under taking given by the Congested Districts Board.
    MR. BRYCE: I am informed that the facts are generally as stated, but with this substantial exception, namely, that no officer of the Congested Districts Board informed the tenants that the 4 per cent, interest would only be pay able for the short time mentioned. The purchase agreements were executed by the tenant purchasers before a Commissioner of Oaths who is bound to see that the tenant understands the conditions of the purchase agreement. This agreement expressly states that 4 per cent, interest on the purchase price shall be paid in lieu of rent from the date of execution of agreement to the date on which the advance of purchase money applied for may be made to the Congested Districts Board by the Land Commission. The delay in vesting the holdings in the tenants appears to have been caused by legal difficulties which arose in connection with the redemption of a head rent payable out of the lands, but the solicitor reports that he hopes that the matter will soon be completed. There is no doubt that this delay was not anticipated at the time, and under the circumstances the matter will be brought before the Board at their next meeting with a view of considering whether a reduction from 4 per cent, to 3¼ per cent, interest should be given to the tenants.

    Irish Agricultural Endowment Fund.
    MR. MOONEY: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland if the fund, referred to in the annual Report of the Department of Agriculture and Technical Instruction for Ireland as the endowment fund, has been created under Section 16, Subsection 3, of 62 and 63 Vic, c. 50; if not, under what section, if any; and
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    whether, seeing that Section 16, Sub-section 3, is merely the usual proviso for the retention of unexpended yearly balances, and that, on 31st March 1905 the Department had, in addition to the ordinary yearly balance of £37,077 1s. 9d., a sum accumulated and invested amounting to £410,837 15s. l1d., and, in view of the fact that many schemes beneficial to the country for the purposes of agriculture and other rural industries or sea fisheries have been refused aid by the Department on the ground of lack of funds, he will consider the advisability of releasing this sum of money, or a portion of it, and have it devoted to the objects for which it was primarily voted by Parliament.
    MR. BRYCE: The endowment fund of the Department of Agriculture and Technical Instruction was created under the provisions of Section 15 of the Agriculture and Technical Instruction Act of 1899. The nominal or face value of the securities at present held is £379,431 15s., the real value, at present prices, being approximately £357,430. In addition, the Department have £35,000 in bank on temporary deposit, and the total value of the endowment fund is therefore £392,430. The liabilities on this sum which are earmarked under the terms of Section 16 (1) (a) to (f) of the Act, amount to £122,540; and allocations sanctioned by the Agricultural Board for agricultural colleges and stations, and agricultural schemes, amount to £139,960. The unallocated balance, amounting to about £130,000, is, in the view of the Department, required to meet the present excess of annual expenditure over normal income on the purposes of agriculture and other rural industries, and sea fisheries, as defined in Section 30 of the Act.
    MR. MOONEY: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the figures mentioned in my Question are taken from the official publication of the Department, and inasmuch as the right hon. Gentle man has denied the authenticity of the statement that the fund amounts to £410,837, will he take steps to see that the Department publish accurate figures?
    MR. BRYCE: If the hon. Member wishes I will obtain information on that point.
    MR. DILLON: Is the deficiency in the annual revenue of the Department due to the subsidies paid to the Irish Agricultural Organisation Society?
    MR. BRYCE: I do not know what the cause is.

    United Irish League—Leitrim Branches.
    MR. T. L. CORBETT: On behalf of the hon. Member for East Down, I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that in that portion of the county Leitrim of which Drumkeerin, Dromahair, and Dowra are the centres, the United Irish League is holding courts to which the grazier, the farmer, and the shop keeper are bidden to come and appear or else subject themselves to the penalty of the league law; and whether he proposes to take any, and, if any, what action in the matter.
    MR. BRYCE: I am informed by the police authorities that it is not the case that courts are held by the United Irish League in the districts referred to. It appears, however, from local newspaper reports that meetings of the League are held at which evicted tenants and others sometimes attend to give voice to their grievances, and at subsequent meetings the persons whose action may be complained of sometimes voluntarily appear for the purpose of offering an explanation. I have not received any information which would go to show that there has been any omission to take any action called for. The police are taking all necessary steps for the preservation of the peace, and the condition of the district is being watched.
    MR. T. L. CORBETT: Does the right hon. Gentleman deny that a reign of terror exists there?
    MR. BRYCEsaid he was not aware of any circumstances which would justify the strong expression used by the hon. Member.

    Boycotting at Dromahair.
    MR. T. L. CORBETT: On behalf of the hon. Member for East Down, I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that, in consequence of the action of the United Irish League, people in
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    Dromahair by boycotting and other methods have been obliged to get the necessities of life sent them through the medium of the Post Office, and that a branch of the League at Drumkeeran having discovered this reported that the Post Office authorities were supplying goods to a farmer named Boles and his assistant, and directed their vigilance committee to make further inquiries and report at the next meeting; and what steps he is taking to maintain the supremacy of the law in these parts.
    MR. BRYCE: I am informed by the police authorities that it is not the fact that persons at Dromahair have been compelled, by boycotting or other methods, to obtain the necessaries of life through the medium of the post. A local news paper recently contained a statement to the effect mentioned in the second part of the Question, but the police have no knowledge that these proceedings did in fact take place at the meeting. The police are, I am informed, taking all measures which may be necessary to protect persons from intimidation, and generally to preserve the peace in this district.

    Royal Irish Constabulary.
    MR. T. L. CORBETT: On behalf of the hon. Member for East Down, I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether it is pro posed by the Government to alter in any way by legislation the present status of the Royal Irish Constabulary, or interfere with existing arrangements whereby its administration and financial control are retained in the hands of the executive Government directly responsible to the British House of Commons.
    MR. BRYCE: I have already told the House that I cannot, in the course of the present session, make any statement, either of a positive or negative character, in regard to any possible future legislation which may affect any branch of the Government of Ireland; and the hon. Member will doubtless understand that he is not to draw any inference whatever from this statement which, for obvious reasons, must be made in the most general terms that can be employed.
    MR. T. L. CORBETT: Is the right hon. Gentleman willing to ask the Prime

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    Minister to consult the members of the Irish Unionist Party as to any future legislation?
    MR. BRYCE: My right hon. friend has already stated that he will be most happy to receive suggestions from members of the so-called Unionist Party.

    Gaelic League's Teaching Scheme.
    MR. LONSDALE: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he will state the nature of the scheme of Irish teaching which has been laid before him by the Gaelic League; whether he has approved of it; and whether, instead of putting pressure upon the National Board in regard to this matter, he will endeavour first to get from the Treasury the additional funds necessary for providing adequate schoolhouse accommodation for Irish children.
    MR. BRYCE: The suggestions as to the teaching of Irish which have been sent to me by the Gaelic League are too long to be stated in Answer to a Question, and, indeed, were not sent to me for publication. I have expressed no opinion regarding them, but have referred them to the National Board to whom it belongs to submit proposals for the expenditure of money in every branch of elementary education. The hon. Member is not entitled to assume, and is wrong in assuming, that any pressure has been put upon the National Board. None such has, in fact, been put. The Irish Government is, and has for some time been, in constant communication with the Treasury in regard to the provision of adequate schoolhouse accommodation for Irish children, a subject whose importance is fully recognised.
    MR. LONSDALE: Is not the placing of these schoolhouses in a sanitary condition more important than teaching the Irish language?
    MR. BRYCE: I have said I regard the provision of good buildings as of the highest importance.

    Sligo and Bundoran Railway.
    MR. SWIFT MACNEILL: TO ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he has received
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    a series of resolutions passed at a public meeting held in Bundoran on 8th November, over which the Very Rev. J. Malhern, D.D., P.P., presided, in favour of the construction of a line of railway between Sligo and Bundoran, in which the advantages to the public of such an undertaking are set forth; and whether, having regard to the fact that he, in response to' a deputation which waited on him during his visit to Sligo, ex pressed himself in the main as favourable to such a project, he will take into consideration in the preparation of the Ireland Development Grant Estimate for 1907–8 the question of the construction of a line from Bundoran to Sligo.
    MR. BRYCE: I have received the resolutions referred to in the Question, and have asked the Board of Works for a report on the proposed line. Although disposed to favour this and every similar project which would tend to develop the resources of the country, I regret to say that the present financial position of the Ireland Development Grant is not such as to make it possible to throw at this moment any further charges for railway extension upon it.
    MR. SWIFT MACNEILL: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that he is one of about half-a-dozen itinerant Irish Secretaries who have come down holding out hopes which have no chance of realisation?
    [No Answer was returned.]

    State of School Buildings.
    MR. DILLON: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is now in a position to make a full statement of the situation as to school building grants in Ireland; whether the dispute between the Treasury and the National Board in this matter has now lasted for six years; and whether he can state the reasons for this state of affairs. May I also ask whether the right hon. Gentleman's attention has been called to that part of the last Report of the Commissioners for National Education which deals with this subject, and whether he can lay on the Table the full correspondence between the Treasury and the National Board on this question of school grants?
    MR. BRYCE: I am afraid I cannot say that the confidential correspondence between the Departments can be laid on the Table. After consultation with the Treasury I am able to say that the present position is that the suggestions of the Commissioners of National Education as regards standard plans for the future were forwarded by the Irish Government to the Treasury a few days ago, and are now being examined on behalf of the Treasury. In the mean time, the Commissioners have authority to submit urgent cases, with details of requirements in each case, for consideration on their merits.
    Mr. DILLON: Am I to understand that after six years—for this question arose six years ago—these controversies between the Treasury and the National Board are still going on while the school houses are falling in ruins about the heads of the children? Are we now where we were six years ago?
    MR. BRYCE: That is not the case at all. It is not the case that this particular question has been going on for six years, though there has been a great deal of regrettable delay. There had been a great deal of correspondence backwards and forwards going on for some time before the present Government came into office about the amount of money that should be given; but these questions have been very largely disposed of now, and a general arrangement for the disposal of the money for the next few years has been come to. For the moment this further question has arisen, and that is the question which is now stopping the way. 1 hope it will soon be disposed of.
    MR. DILLON: As this is a matter of vital importance, I wish to ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he cannot press the Treasury to allow him to lay the correspondence and a full statement of the situation before the House?
    MR. T. L. CORBETT: May I ask the so-called Chief Secretary for Ireland —[Ministerial cries of "Order."]
    MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Member is not entitled to Use insulting language.
    MR. T. L. CORBETT: I withdraw the epithet, Sir. It was only called forth by the insult of the Chief Secretary to the Irish Unionist Party in answer to a previous Question of mine.
    MR. SPEAKER: If the right hon. Gentleman had used any expression I considered unparliamentary I should have called his attention and the attention of the House to it.
    MR. LONSDALEasked whether the right hon. Gentleman had any right to describe the Irish Unionist Party as "the so-called Unionist Party?"
    MR. SPEAKER: Many things may be said of a Party which may not be said of an individual.
    MR. BRYCE: If that expression, which, I confess, I used in a somewhat festive manner, gives any offence to the hon. Member, of course I withdraw it.
    MR. R. DUNCAN: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there is in Ireland a desire which is rapidly ripening into a demand for more effectual dealing with educational matters, and will he take an early opportunity of placing before the House some statement of policy?
    MR. SPEAKER: That does not arise out of the Question on the Paper.

    West Belfast Revision.
    MR. JOHN REDMOND: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether his attention has been called to the fact that at the recent revision for the Parliamentary Division of West Belfast the revising barristers were obliged to disfranchise a considerable number of voters owing to the fact that the poor rate payable in respect of the premises out of which the franchise was sought had not been paid during at least a portion of the time that the premises were in the occupation of the persons claiming the franchise; whether he is aware that in all the cases referred to such payment should have been made by the landlord or his agent; whether the agent for such properties is bound to make a statutory declaration, and in each of the cases referred to did

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    make such declaration, to the effect that the premises were vacant, and accordingly claimed an abatement upon the rates proportionate with the period of alleged non-occupation of the premises: whether he is aware that in several cases the agents, on cross-examination, had admitted that they had placed on the list as vacant houses which they knew were not vacant; whether his attention has been called to the remarks of the revising barrister, who expressed himself strongly upon the matter and did not hesitate to say that the declarations were made for the purpose of defrauding the rates; and whether, in view of the fact that a number of electors have by this method been deprived of the franchise, he intends to take any action against such agents for making, first, false declarations, and, secondly, for obtaining money by false representations and so defrauding the ratepayers.
    MR. BRYCE: My attention and that of my right hon. friend the Attorney General for Ireland have been called to the facts alleged in the Question, and the Attorney-General has directed that full inquiries shall be made by the Crown Solicitor with the view of ascertaining whether offences against the law have been committed. Upon receipt of the Crown Solicitor's Report the Attorney-General will consider the question of instituting a prosecution.

    Macroom Disturbance.
    MR. T. L. CORBETT: On behalf of the hon. Member for East Down, I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether his attention has been drawn to the fact that a crowd of Nationalist rowdies on the 14th instant at Macroom attacked a Mr. McCarthy and his sister as they were boarding the train for Cork, knocking the former down several times and otherwise behaving in a most disorderly manner; and will he say whether the offenders have been brought to justice.
    MR. BRYCE: I am informed by the police authorities that proceedings at the instance of the police have been instituted against four men in connection with the incident referred to in the Question. While these proceedings are pending it is undesirable that I should make a
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    detailed statement in the matter, but I may observe that I have no information either about the politics or the personal character and general demeanour of the persons accused.

    Untenanted Lands in Cork County.
    MR. FLYNN: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord - Lieutenant of Ireland if his attention has been called to the details of the latest Return of un tenanted lands in Ireland; whether the Estates Commissioners are aware that amongst other owners of large parcels of land now untenanted, an examination of the Returns show that in the county of Cork Sir John W. Beecher, in the electoral division of Roskeen, holds approximately 1,030 acres, Lord Castletown, division of Doneraile, 1,060 acres, Major Aldworth, division of Newmarket, 860 acres, Mr. Wm, N. Leader, Rosnalee division, 1,940 acres, Mr. Thomas Clarke, Aglesh division, 1,058 acres, Sir Augustus Warren, Warrenscourt division, 612 acres; and whether, in view of the claim of numerous evicted tenants in the localities, and the facilities afforded by the provisions of this year's Labourers Act for the acquisition of suitable economic holdings by deserving agricultural labourers, the Estates Commissioners will instruct their inspectors to communicate with these and other owners with the least possible delay in order to carry into practical effect the intention of Parliament.
    MR. BRYCE: The Estates Com missioners inform me that they have communicated with two out of the six owners mentioned in the Question, but their agents have replied that the lands are not for sale. In two of the cases originating applications for sale had already been lodged, and there was therefore no necessity to approach the owner. In the two remaining cases the property appears to comprise mansion houses and lands, and the Commissioners have not approached the owners.

    Irish Butter Trade.
    MR. BOLAND: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that frequent representations have been made in the interest of the export trade in Irish butter, to the effect that a system of grading should be introduced such as

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    is carried out by New Zealand and Denmark; and whether the Irish Department of Agriculture will now adopt this system, in view of the fact that the export of Irish butter amounts annually to a value of nearly £5,000,000, and that a system of grading would considerably increase its value.
    MR. BRYCE: The Department of Agriculture and Technical Instruction have received representations to the effect mentioned, and the matter has engaged their attention for some time past. The Department are not satisfied that the arguments in favour of the proposal are such as would warrant them in embarking on the necessarily large expenditure which would be entailed by an experiment in the grading of butter, the success of which would be very doubtful.

    Royal Irish Constabulary-Belfast Inquiry.
    MR. SLOAN: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland if he can state the result of the recent Commission of Inquiry which sat in Belfast in connection with the Royal Irish Constabulary; what was the cost incurred; and what changes, if any, are to take place as the result of this inquiry.
    MR. BRYCE: The result of the inquiry was to show that there were no important or substantial grounds for dissatisfaction in connection with the organisation and discipline of the Belfast Police Force, but it cleared up several matters as to which an inquiry had become necessary. I am informed by the Treasury that the cost of the inquiry was £517. As respects changes to be made, that matter is still under consideration, and I shall not be in a position to give a definite Answer to the concluding part of the Question until I have had an opportunity of consulting the Inspector-General with reference especially to the organisation of the detective force.
    MR. SLOAN: Will it be before the end of the session?
    MR. BRYCE: I cannot say for certain.

    Culmore National School Teacher.
    MR. SLOAN: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland if he can state on what grounds and by whose authority has Mr. H. R. Gilmore, principal teacher of Culmore national school, been dismissed; and whether, seeing that Gilmore has been a successful teacher and a man of unblemished character, he will take stops to have the dismissal of this teacher thoroughly investigated.
    MR. BRYCE: The Commissioners of National Education inform me that Mr. Gilmore was served by Dr. Sproule, the manager of the school, with three months notice of dismissal in accordance with the terms of the agreement executed between the parties. The Commissioners, however, understand that the notice of dismissal has since been withdrawn.

    Untenanted Lands Return.
    MR. LONSDALE: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that the Return of untenanted lands in rural districts in Ireland recently issued is misleading, inasmuch as the demesne lands are not sufficiently indicated; whether he is aware that in many cases the demesne lands cover several townlands, whereas in the Return the mansion house is mentioned only in connection with the townland in which it happens to be situated; whether in some cases lands farmed by owners are returned as unoccupied; and whether he will have the Return re-issued in a corrected form.
    MR. BRYCE: If the hon. Member will refer to the Return in question he will see that it has been prepared in the precise form in which it was ordered by this House. It is no doubt the fact that in some cases a demesne covers more than one townland. The Return, how-over, shows all mansion houses in the particular townlands in which they are situate, thus following the requirement of the order. In no cases are lands returned as unoccupied, There does not appear to be any reason for amending the Return.
    MR. LONSDALEasked the right hon. Gentleman to inquire into the case of the county of Armagh.
    MR. BRYCEpromised to convey any information supplied him by the hon. Member to the authorities concerned.

    Cavan Evicted Tenants.
    MR. VINCENT KENNEDY: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland if applications for reinstatement have been received by the Estates Commissioners on behalf of Mrs. Rose Moore and Mrs. M'Sherry on the estate of George Stewart Smith; county Cavan; are the holdings of these evicted tenants in possession of a grabber, and, if so, what is the name; and will he state what steps have been taken to effect the restoration of these evicted tenants.
    MR. BRYCE: The Estates Commissioners inform me that they have received an application for reinstatement from Mrs. Moore, and have referred it to their inspector for inquiry and report. Mrs. Moore's former holding is stated to be in the occupation of Charles McLean. The Commissioners do not appear to have received an application for reinstatement from Mrs. M'Sherry.

    Kenmare Postal Arrangements.
    MR. BOLAND: I beg to ask the Postmaster-General whether he is aware that a letter addressed in Irish and posted in Killorglin on the morning of the 10th November was not delivered in Kenmare until the 13th November; whether, in view of the fact that these two towns are in the same county, he can explain the reason of the delay; and whether steps will be taken to prevent it occurring in the future.
    MR. SYDNEY BUXTON: I find that, in consequence of pressure of work at Killorglin, the letter to which the hon. Member refers was forwarded from that office with the address untranslated. The address could not be read at the intermediate office, and the letter had therefore to be sent to Dublin, where, as Sunday intervened, it could not be dealt with until the Monday morning. Its subsequent delivery was in due course of post. I cannot undertake that no delay will be caused if letters are addressed in Irish.

    Lodger Franchise.
    MR. BILLSON: I beg to ask the Prime Minister whether,
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    considering the uncertainty and confusion caused by the varying decisions of revising barristers with respect to the lodger franchise, and the extension of the effects of that franchise under recent interpretations of the Courts, the Government will consider the desirability of taking steps next session to ensure greater uniformity and certainty in the regulation of this branch of registration.
    THE PRIME MINISTER AND FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY (Sir H. CAMP-BELL-BANNERMAN,): The President of the Local Government Board issued circulars in April last with, a view of securing that effect should be given to the decision of the Court in the case of Kent v. Fittall, which is, I presume, one of the decisions referred to in the Question. I gather, however, that my hon. friend desires that the matter should be dealt with in a way which could only be effected by means of legislation. I may tell him that the Government are fully alive to the importance of the question, which is under consideration at the present moment; but he must not press me to give a promise of legislation next session.

    Mr. Bucknill's Report.
    MR. MOND: I beg to ask the Prime Minister whether his attention has been called to a town's meeting held at Johannesburg on Friday, 23rd November, convened by the mayor to press for the publication of Mr. Bucknill's Report and evidence; and whether, in view of the expressed desire by responsible and influential citizens of Johannesburg, including several clergymen, to be acquainted with the true facts as to the moral condition of the Chinese coolies in the compounds, the Government will reconsider their previous decision and will allow the Report and evidence to be cither published or made accessible both here and in Johannesburg to responsible people wishing to see it.
    SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN: I have seen the account of this meeting. His Majesty's Government are not prepared to reconsider their decision in consequence of this meeting. Only short telegraphic accounts of the discussion, which took place in Parliament on 15th November, have as yet reached South

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    Africa, and the Colonists are therefore not yet in possession of the full statement of the position of His Majesty's Government and of the reasons which have actuated them.
    MR. RAWLINSON: I beg to ask the Prime Minister why the Government have determined that no inquiries shall be made as to the source from which certain newspapers obtained extracts from a confidential official document dealing with crime among Chinese coolies in South Africa.
    SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNEEMAN; I thought that in the profession of which the hon. Member is a distinguished member there was some maxim under which judges are supposed to act which warned them against giving reasons for their judgments. I propose to apply this maxim now. Confidential matters do, in spite of all precautions, from time to time leak out; and I cannot see my way to propose that the police should be called in whenever such regrettable occurrences take place.

    Royal Patrotic Fund—Case of Mrs. Anne Kerry.
    MR. BYLES: I beg to ask the Prime Minister whether he is aware that of the million and a half of money subscribed by the public for the widows and children of soldiers killed in the Crimean War, a large balance remains undistributed, and that nevertheless widows entitled to this bounty are being cast into the workhouse to die; whether he is aware that Mrs. Anne Kerry, whose husband was killed at Inkerman, is now in Loughrea workhouse, her pension from the Royal Patriotic Fund taken from her; that she is very aged and very infirm; and whether he will take steps by legislation or otherwise to enable the nation to fulfil its trust, and to surround this lady in her declining days with such comforts as are her due.
    SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN: I am informed that the facts are not as might be inferred from the terms of the Question. So far from the balance being undistributed, as suggested by my hon. friend, the expenditure in annuities to the widows amounted to £14,087 in 1905, while the income for that year was only
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    £4,607. It therefore follows that the balance of the Crimean War fund is being distributed at such a rate as involves its diminution yearly by thousands of pounds, while there remain on the Fund 565 beneficiaries in enjoyment of annuities from the Fund as at 31st December, 1905. I am also informed that no widow has, by the action of the Patriotic Fund authorities, been "cast," as stated by my hon. friend, "into the workhouse." The circumstances under which Mrs. Anne Kerry, referred to in the hon. Member's Question, is now in the Loughrea workhouse, were stated to the House in an answer to a Question put by the hon. Member for South Galway to the Secretary of State for War on 19th November.†
    MR. BYLESasked whether the fund spoken of was being received for people who were fast disappearing, and whether it was not for the class to which this lady belonged that the money was subscribed.
    SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN: This old lady—I remember the nature of the Answer given to the hon. Member opposite—was taken to the workhouse at the request of her son. At that time she was receiving 10s. a week from the Fund, but her son considered she would be better off in the workhouse infirmary, and she being there maintained from the rates, the 10s. was not continued, but if she came out of the workhouse the 10s. a week would be resumed.
    MR. DUFFY: Arising out of the reply given by the Prime Minister, I wish to correct him—
    MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Member can only do that by means of a Question.
    SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN: It may save time if I suggest to the hon. Member that he should address his Question to the proper authority in the House who gave him his previous Answer if he is not satisfied with the Answer I have given; I am only speaking from memory.
    MR. DUFFY: If the proper authority is present, and I believe he is—I will put the Question to him. Is the proper
    † See (4) Debates, clxv., 375.

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    authority aware that this old lady was sent to the Loughrea workhouse upon the express recommendation of the medical officer, and apart from the humiliation to this lady, whose husband was killed at Inkerman, by being placed on the poor rates, will he make a continuance of the grant of a few paltry shillings to brighten the evening of her days, even in an Irish workhouse?
    MR. HALDANE: No, sir, the proper authority is not aware. The War office has no control whatever over the Royal Patriotic Fund or any similar funds, and has no means for making provision for such cases as that to which the hon. Member has referred.
    LORD E. CECIL: Are we to understand that the Government can do nothing for this old lady?
    MAJOR SEELYasked if there was any authority in the House to answer the Question.
    MR. SHACKLETONasked whether it was not the fact that this old lady received the allowance for years, the last payment being made of £6 10s. on 1st July for the ensuing quarter, that she entered the workhouse in the beginning of July, and that the payment would be resumed immediately she was removed therefrom.
    THE FINANCIAL SECRETARY TO THE TREASURY (Mr. MCKENNA, Monmouthshire, N.)said that was so, and she was in the workhouse at the request of her son.
    MR. DUFFY: No—
    MR. SPEAKER: Notice should be given of any further Questions.

    Care of the Feeble-minded.
    MR. ALDEN: I beg to ask the Prime Minister when the interim Report of the Royal Commission on the Feeble-minded will be published.
    SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN: I have made inquiries of the Commission, but I find that they have no information
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    to make public. My hon. friend understands, of course, that the Government have no control whatever over the proceedings of Royal Commissions.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
MR. JOHN REDMONDasked when it was proposed to take the Town Tenants (Ireland) Bill again.
MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN: And can the right hon. Gentleman indicate the course of business for the next few days?
SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMANsaid the Government proposed to take the Workmen's Compensation Bill tomorrow, and the Third Reading of the Town Tenants (Ireland) Bill on Friday. The Third Reading of the Plural Voting Bill would be taken on Monday. The Report stage of the Workmen's Compensation Bill would be continued on Tuesday and Wednesday. If the Report stage was not concluded before Wednesday, the Eleven o'clock Rule would be suspended on that day.
SIR HOWARD VINCENT: When will the Public Trustee Bill be taken?
SIR FRANCIS POWELL: And the Provision of Meals for School Children Bill?
SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMANsaid he could not name days for those Bills, but they were not being lost sight of. A good many things besides Mahomet's coffin were hanging between heaven and earth at this moment, and under the influence of that general consideration he could not name a day.
MR. KEIR HARDIE (Merthyr Tydvil)asked whether the Government intended to redeem the pledge given by the President of the Local Government Board that time would be given this session for the discussion of the Education (Provision of Meals) Bill.
SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN: I have just said so.

NEW BILL

  CLANRICARDE ESTATES (EXPROPRIATION).
  MR. DUFFY, in asking leave to introduce a Bill to provide for the expropriation of the Marquess of Clanricarde from his Irish estates, said his action was impelled by two motives. As a resident in the locality he saw it was absolutely impossible to maintain and preserve the faintest appearance of law and order in the wide stretch of country extending from the Shannon to the sea—a distance of forty Irish miles— so long as Lord Clanricarde was allowed to exercise his free and unfettered will in the extraordinary manner they were unfortunately acquainted with. Moreover, the state of unrest and disaffection, constantly bordering on rebellion and civil war, which everlastingly permeated, not alone the entire Clanricarde estate, but the country adjoining, made it evident that something must be done at once if the law of the land was to run its course, and if the unfortunate people who were obliged to live under the sway of such an unfathomable mystic were to be saved the necessity of entering upon a terrible struggle with a view to saving themselves from the cruel and unjust attacks of this man. He would not weary the House with tedious repetition of the horrors this man had caused, but he would briefly tell the circumstances upon which he based his proposal that the State should compulsorily acquire possession of the property of this nobleman, and, having fully redeemed his interest, allow him to betake himself to some more congenial corner of the world where his extraordinary talents and unnatural activities might be more fully appreciated. The late Prime Minister, in discussing the Town Tenants Bill, said—
  "Here you are now. Lord Clanricarde is your classic type of Irish landlord; why don't you bring in a Bill specially dealing with his case."
  In accepting the challenge he felt certain that he could rely on the right hon. Gentleman's support and influence in carrying this Peace Preservation Bill into law. In the House and out of it he had never met a man who defended generally the character of Lord Clanricarde. In Ireland he was hated by
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  his own class, for he had brought more trouble and misfortune upon them than all the agrarian movements of the past thirty years. By his tenants and the country generally he was hated and abominated, yet tolerated, and wholly against his will he had ever been the pioneer and promoter of strenuous agrarian agitation leading up to useful remedial legislation. To the Government of the day, Tory and Liberal alike, he had always proved himself to be a bugbear and a standing menace to the peace, good order, and government of the country. Since his father's death in 1873 he had been a cruel and constant scourge over some 56,000 acres of land, including the town of Loughrea and other towns which were absolutely cursed by his ownership. During that long period of years his career had been distinguished by misery, wretchedness, and bloodshed. Of all the landlords of Ireland he had been the most callous and heartless. One of his agents, the ill-fated Mr. Joyce, protested against the cruel and abominable things he was made to do, and in a subsequent trial which he was obliged to enter into in order to clear his name from the foul stigma which his employer sought to affix to it, he showed up the infamies of which he was sought to be made the tool. This noble landlord had never visited his property since his advent to the title except on one occasion when he paid a flying visit to bury his father. He subsequently visited Ireland when he appeared in Dublin to defend the libel action instituted by his agent Mr. Joyce. He would pass over Lord Clanricards's exceptionally brutal treatment of Loughrea and district; the princely mansion begun by his father but unfinished; the town hall of Loughrea closed in the faces of the people except when let for hire; the town commissioners established by his father, with a grant of £75 a year, now left in poverty through his withdrawing the grant made for its sustenance; and the brewery established by his father which he had closed down. He came to the circumstances connected with the evictions on the property. Between 1879 and 1882, 239 families were turned adrift and were now wandering about. Those evictions were so harsh and cruel that the Chief Baron of Ireland, who presided at the Joyce trial, declared that

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  they were cruel and abominable, and in scathing terms denounced the action of Lord Clanricarde in expelling his tenants from their humble homes, while the jury marked their sense of the cruel wrong done to the people by awarding exemplary damages. The nefarious eviction of Mr. Martin Ward was still fresh in the minds of everyone. Even Lord Clanricarde himself, bad as he was, had never, been guilty of conduct more monstrous and inexcusable. Mr. Ward, who was a prosperous trader in Loughrea, became secretary of the political organisation in the district. This exercise of his legal right infuriated the agent, who wrote the now famous letter which was without precedent even in the annals of Irish landlordism. The trader had since been deprived of his valuable property, and was now a ruined man, living in a cold out-of-the-way corner of the town in the hope that his fellow-countrymen would ere long provide him with a place of business to commence life anew. The last reason he would give as justifying the intervention of the House was the unfortunate and lamentable state of things which existed all over the property. At the present moment Lord Clanricarde threatened to destroy the homes of a large number of his tenants by similar rapacity and injustice to that inflicted on Mr. Ward. At a time when nearly every landlord in Galway was endeavouring to do his duty by the people and put into operation the provisions of the Land Act, the most noble the Marquess of Clanricarde was issuing processes and ejectments and preparing the way hard and fast for a new eviction campaign.
  MR. SPEAKERreminded the hon. Member that he had exhausted the ten-minutes which was the time permitted for such a Motion.
  MR. DUFFYsaid he would read the names of the hon. Members on the back of the Bill and appeal to the House to come to the assistance of a body of people in the West of Ireland who had done no wrong, and who, if given the opportunity of acting their part in future, would prove as sound, honest, and faithful as any to be found in any part of the world.
  MR. SPEAKER: When leave has been given to bring in the Bill I will ask
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  the hon. Member to read the names of the hon. Members on the back of it.
  Motion made and Question proposed, "That leave be given to bring in a Bill to provide for the expropriation of the Marquess of Clanricarde from his Irish Estates."—(Mr. Duffy.)
  THE PRIME MINISTER AND FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY (SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN,): I shall simply interpose with a very few words on this question. The first thing I wish to do is to compliment the hon. Member on the temperate, earnest, and effective way in which he has presented his case. There is a strong humorous element in this matter no doubt, but there is a serious element also. I do not suppose that the most extreme advocate of the rights of property that this House contains can justify for a moment the attitude which this nobleman and landed proprietor has thought fit to assume for many years in the district where his property lies. The relations between him and his tenants, and indeed the whole community, have been such as greatly contribute to disturbing the public peace, and exasperating and envenoming the minds of parties in Ireland. Therefore I say it is a most serious thing, and I am not surprised that the hon. Member should have brought in a Bill which, he thinks is the proper way to deal with this matter. Whether there is another side of that question or not, I think that hon. Members, in that part of the House, if they could manage to obliterate the Clanricarde case, would lose one of their strongest arguments and their greatest sources of strength in any agitation for a change in the law that they might enter upon. But just at this time, when we are entering, as we think, under the Bill of the right hon. Member for Dover, passed a few years ago, upon, a new era—a new agrarian era—in Ireland, it is distressing beyond measure that a great landlord like this should use and abuse his powers in the described by the hon. Member. But the hon. Member has introduced a Bill on the 28th November, and of course, at this time of year it can go no further. If it did go further it would have to be examined by the proper officials of the House, and, being a very peculiar

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  Bill, directed against the property and interest of a single individual, it would have to undergo a great number of forms which are not necessary in the case of ordinary Public Bills. Therefore there is no chance of its going any further, and, I think, if the House allows the hon. Member to introduce his Bill we shall at least see how such a thing is proposed to be done; at the same time, we shall know that it will go no further and that we do not wish it to go further. On the other hand, those who entertain a strong opinion of the evil which has been done for many years in this unfortunate district in Ireland will have done something, at all events, to express their strong opinion. I think it is a matter for the House to say for itself; but I can only say that I am not surprised at the action taken, and I think the hon. Gentleman has done justice to the subject by the earnestness of his language and the moderation of the statement he has made.
  Question put and agreed to.
  Bill ordered to brought in by Mr. Duffy, Mr. John Roche, Mr. O'Malley, Mr. Gwynne, Mr. Jeremiah MacVeagh, Sir Alfred Thomas, Mr. Henderson, Mr. Paul, Mr. Lehmann, and Mr. Burt.

  CLANRICARDE ESTATES (EXPROPRIATION) BILL.
  "To provide for the expropriation of the Marquess of Clanricarde from his Irish Estates," presented accordingly, and read the first time; to be read a second time To-morrow, and to be printed. [Bill 357.]

  PLURAL VOTING BILL.
  As amended, further considered.
  MR. FELLin moving to leave out Clause 1, said that as he was prevented yesterday by the closure from moving a new clause of which he had given notice with the view of making the Bill more workable, he would now state some of the views which he had intended to bring before the House, so that the Minister in charge of the Bill might have an opportunity of explaining the effect of the clause. He congratulated the right hon. Gentleman on the manner in which he had carried out he instructions he received from the Cabinet, and on ren-
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  dering the measure as perfect as possible under those instructions. He held, however, that it was impossible under those instructions to frame a practical working Bill. The first clause provided that an. elector registered in more than one constituency should select the constituency in which he decided to vote. He believed there would be over 500,000 electors with plural qualifications whose names would figure on the registers and who would be to all intents and purposes dead. Those who were interested in the conduct of elections knew that one of the main difficulties in preventing personation arose in connection with the question of dead voters whoso names appeared on the registers. It would be a hundredfold more difficult to prevent personation in the case of plural voters. Personation agents, registration agents, and others might be aware that people were dead, but none of these people would have any possible means of ascertaining that an elector had selected another constituency as the place where he meant to vote, and, therefore, there would be absolutely no possibility of preventing personation with regard to those plural voters whom he would call "dead electors," In the City of London, out of 30,000 electors, there would probably not be more than 5,000 starred as electors in the constituency. The case of the University constituencies would be still worse, for instead of estimating one to four, there would be very few indeed. He had a University vote himself, but he had left the University long ago and had acquired greater interests in other constituencies, and the University was not likely to be the constituency in which he would record his vote. In these University constituencies three out of four on the register would be dead electors, and the difficulties in such cases would be insuperable. Then with regard to the expenses, taking again the City of London, the candidates there would practically have to pay the expense of canvassing the whole of 30,000 electors, only one in five of whom would vote. And so throughout the country, although there would be fewer electors, instead of the expenses of candidates being reduced, they would be materially increased. The candidates would have to pay for the whole register, although it was what he would call a fraudulent register. He

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  believed it was acknowledged that very few people would of themselves and of their own will make the selection at the time; that the selection would be made for them by the Party agents, so that the expense following thereon would be thrown either on the candidate, or on the organisation committee of the Party to which he belonged, so that instead of reducing the expenses of election contests it would materially increase them. That was a point which ought to weigh with the House in making a change of this kind. The next question was what was called "gerrymandering." Again taking the case of the City of London, there were there at least two Conservatives to one Liberal. An astute Liberal election agent might see that he would score if he could carry the City of London for his Party, and he might make such arrangements as would get all the Liberals with plural votes in the City to select that constituency to vote in. Supposing that there were 10,000 Liberal electors, and 20,000 Conservative, on the election day it might be found that the 10,000 Liberals were starred and very few Conservatives. Of course the Conservatives could not then move to counteract that, and the Liberals would carry the two seats for the City. That was an illustration of the gerrymandering and wire-pulling which would take place all over the country. Another point was that it was not fair to throw on plural voters such a temptation as this clause provided to prevent them voting more than once. Say that an elector resided in one constituency, there would be nobody there either amongst his friends or his Party who would know that he had selected to vote in another constituency. He would probably be put on local committees, asked to attend meetings, requested to put the candidate's card in his window, receive election literature and cards asking him to vote early; and in the morning of the polling day a motor car would drive up to his house to take him to the polling station. The Party canvasser would unknowingly be put in the position of what the French called an agent provocateur, and he could not help thinking that in a large number of cases the elector would succumb and go and vote. The elector would not give himself away and
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  confess that he had selected to vote in another constituency, because he liked to be called upon to join the local Party committees and to attend Party demonstrations. That was not a fair strain to put on any man, particularly if he knew that there was no possibility of his being found out. No doubt he would be breaking the law, but he should not be tempted to do so. If this Bill became law there would be petitions for scrutiny of the votes cast in a large number of constituencies, especially in those where the contest had been close. He believed that they should have to come to the proposal frequently made that every man tendering a vote at the poll should make a declaration that he had not voted in any other constituency. On these grounds he moved that the clause be omitted.
  SIR D. DIXONseconded.
  Amendment proposed to the Bill—
  "In page 1, line 5, to leave out Clause 1."(Mr. Fell.)
  Question proposed, "That the words 'A person' stand part of the Bill."
  THE FIRST COMMISSIONER OF WORKS (Mr. HARCOURT,)said he could not be expected to accept this Motion for the omission of Clause 1, which, of course, contained the whole of the Bill except some subsidiary machinery. He was sorry to hear from the hon. Gentleman that he had created a sort of electoral catacomb, which, according to the hon. Member's description, was teeming with dead electors. The special complaint as to the maximum scale of expenses would be met by an Amendment of which he had given notice on Clause 4. He admitted that it was not wholly satisfactory, but it was a rough and ready method, and it was the best that could be devised. He did not think the Bill would lead to gerrymandering. It was impossible to predict what attitude would be adopted or what course was likely to be taken by the majority of plural voters, and he should think that except in the case of a University the majority of plural voters would like to vote at their own

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  homes, as he would in his own case. The possibilities of gerrymandering were enormously less under his proposals than under any of the alternative proposals of the Opposition. The hon. Member for Yarmouth had drawn a highly coloured picture of what would happen on polling day to the voter who had not selected a place in which to vote. There was going to be a motor car in waiting on the morning of the poll, but any hon. Member who knew anything about electioneering knew that if a voter had been resident in a constituency for any time before the day of the poll he would have been captured by one of the Party agents. The agent would not send a motor car for an elector on the morning of the election unless he had satisfied himself which way he was going to vote. He was only dealing with the case where an elector had a residence in a place, but had a vote elsewhere. He thought hon. Gentlemen would realise that such a voter was not likely to exercise his vote elsewhere or to break the law. The hon. Member seemed to think that voters would be induced by agents to break the law.
  MR. FELLsaid that his statement was that the agents would have no opportunity of knowing, for the voter would not tell them that he had selected another constituency.
  MR. HARCOURTsaid there were two things which might happen. An agent knowing that a voter had selected might try to induce him to vote in another constituency. If he did that he would be punishable under this Bill. The second possibility was that an innocent agent might induce a man not knowing that he had selected to vote. The agent was not guilty then, and the penalty would not be enforced against the agent at all but against the voter who was guilty. To move the rejection of Clause 1 was practically to move the rejection of the Bill. The hon. Member thought that the Bill would lead to a large increase of scrutinies in regard to men who had innocently voted without the knowledge that they were plural voters. That was not, he thought, likely to be the case, as it was provided that the vote of a man
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  who had voted innocently, without any knowledge that he was a plural voter, should not be deducted, and the experience of scrutinies during the last ten years would not lead ordinary Members of Parliament to enter upon them.
  COLONEL KENYON-SLANEYbelieved the measure would lead to a great deal of sharp practice, and to considerable doubt on the part of the innocent voter whether he was quite safe in voting. He was sure that a large class of voters would be deterred from voting in consequence of fear of the operation of the Bill. He asked whether a voter who made no selection for the constituency in which he was registered before the 5th of September and who after that date was put on the register for another constituency and for the first time became a plural voter would be disfranchised unless he made an application to the court.
  MR. HARCOURTsaid that having made no selection, if a voter after the 5th of September become a plural voter he must make an application to the court unless he was aware that he was likely to become a plural voter and made a selection.
  COLONEL KENYON-SLANEY: But he is not disfranchised if he does not do that?
  MR. HARCOURT: He is not disfranchised, but he is unable to vote in any way in contravention of this Act.
  CAPTAIN CRAIGsaid it was quite true that the right hon. Gentleman had from time to time met the Opposition when they had objected to certain parts of the Bill, but the broad principle embodied in the first clause had not been dealt with by the right hon. Gentleman. The gravest objection had been taken to that Clause. Men, whether they were thrifty merchants who had saved money, and had acquired property in various parts of the county, or whether they had acquired wealth by succession, were placed at a very great disadvantage as compared with men with only one vote. The right hon. Gentleman had never

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  touched that vital point. He had said that the responsibility rested with every voter to find out in the first instance how many qualifications he had in different parts of the country, and to select before a certain date the constituency in which he would vote. The right hon. Gentleman, however, was placing a penalty on that class of voters. The ordinary voter who was convinced he had only one vote was in a superior position to those who through acquiring property had more than one qualification. That was a most undesirable state of affairs. Although the right hon. Gentleman had removed some of the objectionable features of the clause it was still as objectionable in principle as when the Bill was first introduced. To have determined to hold all the elections on one day would have been a more simple method by which to attain the desired end than the ponderous machinery of the present Bill. Having adopted this clause, the right hon. Gentleman had found it impossible, from its many technicalities, to achieve his object without adding to the multitude of words with which this clause was involved. If he had adopted the simpler plans suggested by the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition the intricacies and the almost insurmountable difficulties with which they were now face to face would have entirely disappeared. But, as it was, the Opposition must criticise every line of the clause. The vital point to which they objected was the principle of penalising those who were registered in more than one constituency. He thought hon. Members on both sides of the House saw in this clause a very great hardship on those who by in good faith asking for a voting paper at the polling booth committed a crime in the eyes of the right hon. Gentleman. That a man who asked innocently for a voting paper should be penalised was a grave flaw in the Bill to which attention had been called repeatedly from the Opposition side of the House, but they had had no assurance from the right hon. Gentleman that he would mitigate the severity of the penalty It was not too much to say that this matter should receive even at the eleventh hour the earnest consideration of the Government. Another point was the
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  long time which it would take the mass of the public to understand the provisions of the Bill. The man who subscribed to the funds of any political party would be looked after, but others might not know until too late that they had been placed on the register of two constituencies and grave consequences might follow if they tried to vote. There were on the Paper several Amendments, but if they allowed the clause to pass without protest now they might not, owing to the operation of the guillotine, have another chance of discussing the matter. One remarkable feature of the debate had been the fact that whenever Members behind the Front Government Bench got up to take part in the discussion they invariably supported the Amendments moved from the Opposition side. But few Liberal Members had attended to give the House the benefit of their advice, and the right hon. Gentleman in carrying the measure through the House had relied on the votes of those who were not in the House during the debates.
  MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAINsaid the right hon. Gentleman had said truly that Clause 1 was, in effect, the Bill. The subsequent clauses were only concerned with the machinery by which the principles of the Bill were to be carried into effect. He did not suppose that any member of the Government would pretend for a moment that any of the Amendments the Government proposed to introduce into the Bill would mitigate the, objections of the Opposition to it. His first cardinal objection to this clause, which embodied all the active principles in the Bill, was that whilst the professed object of its supporters was to equalise voting power, it dealt only with the least of the anomalies that existed, and left absolutely untouched the, far greater inequalities caused by a lack of the proper distribution of seats. That, of course, was a big question, and the Government might plead that they could not deal with it at a time like the present. But if they were to deal with this part of the subject only, his first objection was that they made no distinction between the case of the man who had a qualification but no real or practical interest in the public lite

  101
  of a constituency, and the man who had a genuine and real interest in it. He would not attempt to defend the claims of the out-voters or faggot voters who had no real or genuine interest in the places where they had a qualification, but he strongly objected to the refusal of the Government to entertain any claim on behalf of men who had a real and genuine interest in more than one place, and who might be, and in fact, often were, active in the public work of two constituencies, and were perhaps them selves the source of a great part of the prosperity upon which those constituencies depended. He objected, further, to the unnecessary obstacles and impediments which were placed in the way of a man who had more than one qualification exercising even a single vote. Both the First Commissioner of Works and the Chancellor of the Exchequer had spoken of it as though it were an ordinary duty of citizenship that the plural voter should take active steps to secure the right to vote. The moment it was shown that the poor man would in many cases run the risk of being disfranchised he observed that the Government showed a greater tenderness, but he thought the hardship was the same whether the man was rich or poor. The object of the Government ought to be to facilitate the exercise of the right to vote by any properly qualified voter, and not to place new obstacles in the way of those who always had been qualified. What was the object of insisting, as this clause did, that not only should a man under no circumstances vote twice, but that he should not vote at all, though possessing two qualifications, if he did not before the 5th September indicate of which of those two he meant he avail himself? The attempts to defend this provision had been of the flimsiest. There had been hardly any serious effort to show that it was necessary for any object which the Government had in view. The Government said in the course of the Committee discussion that it was required in order to show when a register came into force who was and who was not qualified to vote. The bottom was knocked out of that argument yesterday by the First Commissioner of Works when he said it would be impossible under this Bill to
  102
  have a clean register. The only reason which the Government had put forward for insisting upon this prior selection by the voter had broken down in the course of discussion, and the prior selection itself now stood wholly without justification if the object of the Government were merely to prevent a man voting twice. The Government had still the opportunity to omit this provision and to allow a man to make a selection at any time. If their object was only to prevent a man voting twice it would be attained just the same. If the object of the Government was to make it difficult for voters who had more than one qualification to vote at all, then, of coarse, they would resist any proposal to alter this provision. On the ground that the clause put unnecessary obstacles in the way of a man voting once, apart from other grounds, he should continue his opposition to the clause in the form in which it now stood. There was another objection to the clause. It introduced a most complicated procedure into the electoral system. It was left to Party agents and Party candidates to provide for the whole of the new work necessitated by this measure and to bear the cost of carrying it out. They were agreed, he thought, that elections were already sufficiently costly to candidates, and he was surprised that one of the first measures of a House of Commons which he thought was already prepared to favour a subsidy to Members to meet their election expenses as well as the payment of official expenses out of public funds, should be one which would enormously increase the expenditure incurred by candidates and Members, and, which, at the same time, would magnify the part played in our electoral system by Party agents and the experts in the machinery of elections to the detriment of the truest expression of the interests of the constituency and the country.
  SIR FREDERICK BANBURYsupported the Amendment. He objected to the principle contained in the clause for two reasons—first, because he saw no reason why the man who happened to have two qualifications should not have two votes; and, secondly, because

  103
  he believed that the method chosen to bring about the result aimed at was extremely cumbrous, and would result in a man who had two qualifications finding in many cases that he had no vote at all. He could conceive no reason why a man who resided or had business premises in any given constituency in which he paid rates and taxes should not have a voice in the selection of the person who was to represent him in this House. The Government might think that there should be equal electoral rights, one man one vote, and one vote one value, but the right hon. Gentleman had not taken any steps to ensure that. The fact that a man had been able to secure more than one qualification was Prima facie evidence that he was a good citizen and was able to give as good a vote as the man who through no fault of his own—he having less brains perhaps—had not been able to secure a second qualification. Why had the right hon. Gentleman departed 'from the precedent which had always been followed, so far as he knew, with any Reform Bill? Whenever any change had been made in the franchise it had always been followed by a dissolution. [An HON. MEMBER: The Ballot.] The ballot was merely a change in the method of recording the votes, and not a change in the franchise at all. When they altered the franchise in the way proposed by this Bill the House would not truly represent the great body of the electors. The Bill affected those who had gained for themselves a position in the country, and it had been left to, hon. Gentlemen opposite to cast to the winds the old Liberal doctrine that taxation and representation should go together. The primary object of an elector was to return as good a Member and as good a House as could be obtained. Were they likely to improve the House of Commons by abolishing plural voting? Plural voters would cease to take an interest in politics, because they would run the risk of getting two years hard labour, and they might have to go to the police court to find out where they could vote. The result might be that they would get to the state of things which existed in America where the more intellectual section of the community washed their hands of politics
  104
  altogether. The original Bill contained about sixty-seven lines, but no less than 117 lines were added during the Report stage. The manner in which the abolition of plural voting was to be carried out was very complicated, and would cause great trouble and disturbance. That could not possibly be denied. It might have been enacted that no man should be allowed to vote twice, but the Government refused to do that. A very large number of people would be in ignorance as to whether they had one or two votes. They would not be aware of the exact formalities they had to go through, with the result that they would do nothing, and would be disfranchised. The right hon. Gentleman had said that if an agent knowingly persuaded a man to vote twice he could be proceeded against, but how were they going to prove that the agent, acted knowingly? The Bill was full of all sorts of legal formalities and difficulties in the way of a man exercising the first right of citizenship. He often found that people did not attach as much importance to the fact that they had a vote as they ought to do, and he was afraid this Bill would increase their apathy recognised that it would be impossible for the right hon. Gentleman to make any con cessions upon this clause. It was claimed that the object of the Bill was to abolish plural voting, but he thought the idea was to prevent anyone with property from voting at all. Under these circum stances he hoped his hon. friend would go to a division, and all light thinking men who desired to preserve just rights for all citizens ought to support him in the division lobby.
  MR. J. F. MASONsaid this Bill threw upon the voter the obligation of finding out whether he was on the register for more than one constituency. Up to the day before the last election he did not know that he had two votes himself. The difficulty would arise more in the case of lodger voters. He was aware that the right hon. Gentle man had raised an objection to throwing upon those in charge of registration work the duty of advising new voters that they were plural voters. That difficulty might be overcome if the registration clerks advised the new voters who were not on the previous register. Every

  105
  plural voter would then get a notice from each constituency in which he was registered, and that would draw his attention to the fact that he had more than one vote. He could then take immediate action to secure his right to vote.
  MR. HICKS REACHsaid he joined with his hon. friends in strongly objecting to this clause. The Government could not pretend that they got a mandate at the last election to bring in a Bill of this kind. He ventured to say that in not one constituency out of fifty was the question of plural voting mentioned. [Cries of "Oh"]. He knew that in the division with which he was connected the question was not, discussed at all. He objected to the clause because the right hon. Gentleman had taken a very round about way of carrying out the purpose he had in view. He might have brought in a Bill providing that all elections should be fought on one day. That was a principle which had many supporters on both sides of the House, and it was one to which not many objections of great weight could be stated. He also objected to the clause because it would have the effect of keeping away from the poll a great many people who were entitled to vote. There were a large number of voters who were always very timid about going to the poll at all, and when they were told that if they voted or attempted to vote, thinking that they had only one qualification, and then it was found they had more, they would render themselves liable to a penalty, they would not vote at all. He objected to the clause because it would largely increase the power of election agents. There were on the register now a large number of people who thought that their names had been taken off, but in future it would be the object of the Party agents not to remove their opponents' names from the register. It would be, their object to keep on the register people who ought to come off. It would be to their advantage to keep, lists of those people who were on the register, and who thought they were not, and to send the lists to Party, agents in, other divisions where the people resided. The Party agent could then go to an elector and point out to him that he had
  106
  a qualification somewhere else, and that if he went to the poll he would do so knowing that he was committing a breach of the law. The Bill would lead to a very great increase of political machinations. At present in cities which had a number of electoral divisions, voters who had qualifications in more than one division selected that in which his vote was most useful to the Party to which he belonged. It seemed to him if this Bill were passed there would be general associations of agents meeting to discuss among themselves where they would prefer certain electors to vote. In that way it was quite possible that in a few years they might have the appalling result of two Liberal Members representing the City of London.
  MR. STANLEY WILSONsaid he could not agree that the Government had rushed into this measure without knowing in the slightest degree what they were doing. They knew perfectly well what they were doing. They knew they were going to disqualify many of their political opponents. That was their principal object. In spite of all the Amendments the right hon. Gentleman had accepted, he objected as much as ever to the Bill. It was absolutely unworkable. Why could not the Government, if they wished to establish the principle of one man one vote, bring in a simple measure of one clause of five or six lines, instead of having one of the most complicated measures ever introduced dealing with registration? The clause would impose a great additional burden upon the shoulders of political agents, and throw heavy additional expenses upon unfortunate Parliamentary candidates. The right hon. Member for East Worcestershire had said that the right hon. Gentleman had always been in favour of decreasing instead of in creasing Parliamentary election expenses. He agreed, but why had the Party opposite brought in a Bill which instead of decreasing these election expenses would have the effect of considerably, increasing them? There was one aim and object of the Bill, and, one only. It was to disqualify, if possible, the owner of property. Why was it? It was because the majority of such Owners were supporters of the Party sitting on the Opposition benches.

  107
  For that reason, he should vote against the clause.
  MR. S. COLLINSrepudiated the assertion that the question of plural voting had not come before the electors at the last general election. In his own constituency he had strongly urged the abolition of plural voting; and he believed that nearly all Liberal candidates had also advocated it. His own opinion was that the Government had let the plural voter down very gently. They had all heard of the absent-minded beggar, and if they might form an opinion from the speeches of hon. Members on the Opposition side of the House the plural voter must be a very absent-minded person indeed. He thought the Government must have had the hon. Baronet the Member for the City of London in their mind when they brought in the Bill. They rejected the residential qualification and provided for a selection of constituency probably because they wanted to retain the services of the hon. Baronet. He strongly maintained that the question of plural voting was one of the principal planks in the platform of Liberal candidates at the last election.
  MR. VICTOR CAVENDISHsaid he agreed to a certain extent with the hon. Member for the Kennington Division as to the question of "one man one vote" having been one of the reforms put before the electors by some hon. Members at the last general election, and that the Government had felt themselves bound to translate into an Act of Parliament pledges which otherwise might be regarded as a very satisfactory electioneering dodge. He thought they could commiserate with hon. Gentlemen opposite in having to go through political penances in the effort to translate their platform promises into Acts of Parliament. He wished to ask the First Com missioner of Works whether there was anything in the provisions of the Bill to meet the point put by his hon. friend the Member for the Tewkesbury Division. He himself at the last election tried to get all the voters who had left his constituency
  108
  to come back and record their votes. That was a reasonable and justifiable thing to do. He wrote to several gentle men and they all declared that they ought not to be on the register. But they were then and were still on the register. After the passing of this Bill, if they neglected to have their names struck off the list those men would be absolutely disfranchised. The right hon. Gentle man had said that that was not intended. He did not know whether there was any means of removing the names from the register. Another objection to this clause was that it would lead to an immense amount of log-rolling and the creation of political machinery which was undesirable. He confessed that he himself possessed three faggot votes, and it was obvious that under this clause he would have to give them up. But no doubt he would find some persons who were not possessed of a vote to whom he could hand them over. If that could be done in the case of a small estate it was bound to be done in big cases. That would lead to an immense amount of political contriving which it had been the object of both political Parties to avoid in the past. How ever useful the Bill might be as a Party cry, he thought that the discussions had shown that it was unworkable, cumbrous, and useless. He appealed to the Government at the last moment to attempt to transform the Bill into a more workmanlike measure.
  MR. HARCOURTsaid that with the permission of the House he would like to reply to a question put by the hon. Member for Tewkesbury. That hon. Gentleman had asked what would happen if a voter, not knowing that he was on more than one register, went to the poll and voted without having made a selection. The elector did not knowingly contravene the Act when he voted, and therefore he would not be liable to any penalty or to proceedings being taken against him. There was the other alternative that if he discovered a few days before the poll that he had a dual qualification he had an easy method of making his selection effectual. In no case would he be disfranchised.
  Sir WILLIAM BULLthought that the object which the Government said they wished to attain could have been secured by a much simpler method than that embodied in this clause. He could think of nothing more cumbrous. To have taken all the elections on one day would have practically effected the object in view. He firmly believed that if the Bill became law on its present lines, an amending Bill would have to be brought in as soon as possible to meet the points which had not been fully discussed. In theory the machinery provided by the Bill hung well together, but he was perfectly certain that in practice it would work out entirely differently from what the right hon. Gentleman expected. It would result in an immense amount of wire pulling and gerrymandering, and there would be squabbling amongst political agents as to where a particular contest should take place. The expense, too, would be very great indeed. He doubted whether the right hon. Gentleman was right in thinking there would not be many cases where persons had to go to the Court. The recent "latch-key" decision had led in his own constituency to an additional cost of £55 for registration; and it could be imagined how registration expenses would be increased all over the country.
  Mr. T. L. CORBETTsaid that he unexpectedly found himself a few years ago in the position of being I a plural voter. He was a voter in London and only discovered by having a polling card sent to him that he was a
  voter in Essex. As his hon. friend had pointed out very clearly, the opposition agent might come to him the day before the poll at an election and say that, as he was on two registers and he could not then make a selection, he could not give a vote at all. That was one of the most effective points against the Bill. [Ironical Ministerial laughter.] It came very ill from hon. Members opposite to jeer at the very clear case which had been put by the hon. Gentleman who moved the Amendment and which the right hon. Gentleman himself would acknowledge involved a real injustice. The case was where a man found himself unexpectedly on two registers.
  MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Member is not entitled to repeat his argument.
  Mr. T. L. CORBETTsaid he thought hon. Gentlemen opposite had not appreciated his argument. It was very clear, it seemed to him, that where a man unexpectedly found that he was entitled to two votes it would be very hard if the agent of the opposite Party—
  MR. SPEAKER: Order, order! The hon. Gentleman is repeating almost verbatim what he has already said, and is, therefore, violating the rule against needless repetition.
  Question put.
  The House divided:—Ayes, 336; Noes, 74. (Division List No. 444.)

  AYES.

  Abraham, William (Rhondda)

  Barlow, Percy (Bedford)

  Bowerman, C. W.

  Acland, Francis Dyke

  Barnard, E. B.

  Brace, William

  Adkins, W. Ryland D.

  Barnes, G. N.

  Bramsdon, T. A.

  Agnew, George William

  Barran, Rowland Hirst

  Branch, James

  Ainsworth, John Stirling

  Beale, W. P.

  Brigg, John

  Alden, Percy

  Beauchamp, E.

  Bright, J. A.

  Allen, Charles P. (Stroud)

  Beaumont, Hn. W. C. B.(Hexhm)

  Brocklehurst, W. B.

  Ambrose, Robert

  Beck, A. Cecil

  Brodie, H. C.

  Armstrong, W. C. Heaton

  Bellairs, Carlyon

  Brooke, Stopford

  Ashton, Thomas Gair

  Benn, W.(T'w'r'H'mlets, S. Geo.)

  Brunner, J.F.L.(Lanes., Leigh)

  Asquith, Rt. Hn. Herbert Henry

  Bennett, E. N.

  Bryce, Rt. Hn. Jas. (Aberdeen)

  Astbury, John Meir

  Bertram, Julius

  Bryce, J. A. (Inverness Burghs)

  Atherley-Jones, L.

  Bethell, Sir J. H. (Essex, Romf'rd)

  Burke, E. Haviland

  Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth)

  Billson, Alfred

  Burns, Rt. Hon. John

  Balfour, Robert (Lanark)

  Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine

  Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas

  Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight)

  Black, Arthur W.(Bedfordshire)

  Buxton, Rt. Hn. Sydney Chas.

  Barker, John

  Boland, John

  Byles, William Pollard

  Barlow, John Emmott (Somerset)

  Boulton, A. C. F.(Ramsey)

  Cairns, Thomas

  Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.

  Hardy, George A. (Suffolk)

  Marnham, F. J.

  Causton, Rt. Hn. Richard Knight

  Harmsworth, Cecil B. (Worc'r)

  Mason, A. E. W. (Coventry)

  Cawley, Sir Frederick

  Hart-Davies, T.

  Massie, J.

  Chance, Frederick William

  Haslam, James (Derbyshire)

  Masterman, C. F. G.

  Channing, Sir Francis Allston

  Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth)

  Meagher, Michael

  Cheetham, John Frederick

  Haworth, Arthur A.

  Menzies, Walter

  Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R.

  Hayden, John Patrick

  Mond, A.

  Churchill, Winston Spencer

  Hazel, Dr. A. E.

  Money, L. G. Chiozza

  Clarke, C. Goddard

  Helme, Norval Watson

  Mooney, J. J.

  Cleland, J. W.

  Hemmerde, Edward George

  Morley, Rt. Hon. John

  Clough, William

  Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

  Morse, L. L.

  Cobbold, Felix Thornley

  Henry, Charles S.

  Morton, Alpheus Cleophas

  Collins, Stephen (Lambeth)

  Herbert, Col. Ivor (Mon., S.)

  Murray, James

  Condon, Thomas Joseph

  Herbert, T. Arnold (Wycombe)

  Myer, Horatio

  Cooper, G. J.

  Higham, John Sharp

  Napier, T. B.

  Corbett, C.H(Sussex, E. Grinst'd)

  Hobart, Sir Robert

  Newnes, Sir George (Swansea)

  Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.

  Hobhouse, Charles E. H.

  Nicholls, George

  Cory, Clifford John

  Hodge, John

  Nicholson. Chas. N. (Doncast'r)

  Cotton, Sir H. J. S.

  Hogan, Michael

  Nolan, Joseph

  Cowan, W. H.

  Holland, Sir William Henry

  Norton, Capt. Cecil William

  Cox, Harold

  Hooper, A. G.

  Nussey, Thomas Willans

  Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth)

  Hope, W. Bateman (Somerset, N.)

  Nuttall, Harry

  Crean, Eugene

  Horniman, Emslie John

  O'Brien, Kendal(Tipperary Mid)

  Cremer, William Randal

  Howard, Hon. Geoffrey

  O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

  Crombie, John William

  Hudson, Walter

  O'Connor. John (Kildare, N.)

  Crosfield, A. H.

  Hyde, Clarendon

  O'Doherty, Philip

  Crossley, William J.

  Idris, T. H. W.

  O'Donnell. C. J. (Walworth)

  Dalziel, James Henry

  Jacoby, Sir James Alfred

  O'Donnell. John (Mayo, S.)

  Davies, Ellis William (Eifion)

  Jenkins, J.

  O'Dowd, John

  Davies, M. Vaughan (Cardigan)

  Johnson, John (Gateshead)

  O'Hare, Patrick

  Davies, Timothy (Fulham)

  Johnson, W. (Nuneaton)

  O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.)

  Davies, W. Howell (Bristol, S.)

  Jones, SirD.Brynmor(Swansea)

  O'Kelly, Jas. (Roscommon, N.)

  Dewar, Arthur (Edinburgh, S.)

  Jones, Leif (Appleby)

  O'Malley, William

  Dickinson, W. H.(St. Pancras, N.)

  Jowett, F. W.

  O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

  Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.

  Joyce, Michael

  Parker, James (Halifax)

  Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

  Kekewich, Sir George

  Partington, Oswald

  Dillon, John

  Kelley, George D.

  Paul, Herbert

  Duffy, William J.

  Kennedy, Vincent Paul

  Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek)

  Dunn, A. Edward (Camborne)

  Kincaid-Smith, Captain

  Pearce, William (Limehouse)

  Dunne, Major E. Martin(Walsall)

  King, Alfred John (Knutsford)

  Philipps, Col. Ivor (S'thampton)

  Edwards, Enoch (Hanley)

  Kitson, Rt. Hon. Sir James

  Philipps, Owen C. (Pembroke)

  Edwards, Frank (Radnor)

  Laidlaw, Robert

  Pickersgill, Edward Hare

  Elibank, Master of

  Lamb, Edmund G. (Leominster)

  Pirie, Duncan V.

  Ellis, Rt. Hon. John Edward

  Lambert, George

  Pollard, Dr.

  Erskine, David C.

  Lamont, Norman

  Power, Patrick Joseph

  Esmonde, Sir Thomas

  Layland-Barratt, Francis

  Price, C. E. (Edinb'gh, Central)

  Essex, R. W.

  Lea, Hugh Cecil(St. Pancras, E.)

  Price, Robt. John (Norfolk, E.)

  Evans, Samuel T.

  Leese, Sir Joseph F.(Accrington)

  Priestley, W. E. B.(Bradford, E.)

  Everett, R. Lacey

  Lever, A. Levy(Essex, Harwich)

  Radford, G. H.

  Faber, G. H. (Boston)

  Levy, Maurice

  Rainy, A. Rolland

  Fenwick, Charles

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Raphael, Herbert H.

  Ferens, T. R.

  Lloyd-George, Rt. Hon. David

  Rea, Russell (Gloucester)

  Fiennes, Hon. Eustace

  Lough, Thomas

  Redmond, John E. (Waterford)

  Findlay, Alexander

  Lundon, W.

  Redmond, William (Clare)

  Flynn, James Christopher

  Luttrell, Hugh Fownes

  Rees, J. D.

  Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

  Lyell, Charles Henry

  Rendall, Athelstan

  Freeman-Thomas, Freeman

  Macdonald, J.M.(Falkirk B'ghs)

  Renton, Major Leslie

  Fuller, John Michael F.

  Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.

  Richards, T.F.(Wolverh'mpt'n.)

  Fullerton, Hugh

  MacNeill, John Gordon Swift

  Richardson, A.

  Gibb, James (Harrow)

  Macpherson, J. T.

  Rickett, J. Compton

  Gill, A. H.

  MacVeagh, Jeremiah(Down, S.)

  Ridsdale, E. A.

  Ginnell, L.

  MacVeigh, Chas; (Donegal, E.)

  Roberts, G. H. (Norwich)

  Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herbert John

  M'Callum, John M.

  Robertson, Rt. Hn. E. (Dundee)

  Glendinning, R. G.

  M'Crae, George

  Robertson, Sir G. Scott(Bradf'rd)

  Goddard, Daniel Ford

  M'Hugh, Patrick A.

  Robertson, J. M, (Tyneside)

  Gooch, George Peabody

  M'Kenna, Reginald

  Robinson, S.

  Greenwood, G. (Peterborough)

  M'Killop, W.

  Robson, Sir William Snowdon

  Gulland, John W.

  M'Laren, H. D.(Stafford, W.)

  Bogers, F. E. Newman

  Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

  M'Mickine, Major G.

  Rose, Charles Day

  Hall, Frederick,

  Maddison, Frederick

  Rowlands

  Halpin, J.

  Mallet, Charles E.

  Runciman, Walter

  Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Lewis

  Manfield, Harry(Northants)

  Rutherford, V. H.(Brenford)

  Hardie, J. Keir (Merthyr Tydvil)

  Marts, G. Croydon (Launceston)

  Samuel, Herbert L.(Clevelland)

  112

  113

  Scott, A. H.(Ashton-under-Lyne)

  Thomas, David Alfred(Merthyr)

  White, George (Norfolk)

  Sears, J. E.

  Thomasson, Franklin

  White, J. D. (Dumbartonshire)

  Seaverns, J. H.

  Thompson, J. W. H. (Somerset, E.)

  White, Luke (York, E. R.)

  Seddon, J.

  Tillett, Louis John

  Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

  Seely, Major J. B.

  Tomkinson, James

  Whittaker, Sir Thomas Palmer

  Shackleton, David James

  Torrance, Sir A. M.

  Wiles, Thomas

  Shaw, Rt. Hon. T. (Hawick, B.)

  Toulmin, George

  Williams, J. (Glamorgan)

  Shipman, Dr. John G.

  Trevelyan, Charles Philips

  Williams, Osmund (Merioneth)

  Silcock, Thomas Ball

  Ure, Alexander

  Wilson, Hn. C. H.W.(Hull, W.)

  Sinclair, Rt. Hon. John

  Vivian, Henry

  Wilson, Henry J. (York, W.R.)

  Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie

  Wadsworth, J.

  Wilson, John (Durham, Mid)

  Soames, Arthur Wellesley

  Walker, H. De R. (Leicester)

  Wilson, J. H. (Middlesbrough)

  Soares, Ernest J.

  Wallace, Robert

  Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)

  Spicer, Sir Albert

  Walsh, Stephen

  Winfrey, R.

  Stanger, H. Y.

  Walters, John Tudor

  Wood, T. M'Kinnon

  Stanley, Hn. A. Lyulph (Chesh.)

  Walton, Sir John L. (Leeds, S.)

  Young, Samuel

  Steadman, W. C.

  Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

  Yoxall, James Henry

  Straus, B. S. (Mile End)

  Ward, W. Dudley(Southampton)

  Sullivan, Donal

  Wardle, George J.

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr. Whiteley and Mr. J. A. Pease.

  Summerbell, T.

  Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan)

  Taylor, John W. (Durham)

  Wason, John Cathcart(Orkney)

  Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)

  Watt, H. Anderson

  Thomas, Sir A.(Glamorgan, E.)

  Wedgwood, Josiah C.

  NOES.

  Anstruther-Gray, Major

  Dixon, Sir Daniel

  Morpeth, Viscount

  Ashley, W. W.

  Dixon-Hartland, Sir Fred Dixon

  Nield, Herbert

  Baldwin, Alfred

  Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers.

  Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington)

  Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J.(City Lond.)

  Du Cros, Harvey

  Percy, Earl

  Banbury, Sir Frederick George

  Duncan; Robert (Lanark, Gov'n)

  Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

  Banner, John S. Harmood-

  Faber, George Denison (York)

  Ratcliff, Major R. F.

  Beach, Hn. Michael Hugh Hicks

  Fardell, Sir T. George

  Remnant, James Farquharson

  Beckett, Hon. Gervase

  Fell, Arthur

  Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert

  Bowles, G. Stewart

  Finch, Rt. Hon. George H.

  Rutherford, John (Lancashire)

  Boyle, Sir Edward

  Hamilton, Marquess of

  Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert

  Bridgeman, W. Clive

  Hervey, F. W. F.(Bury S. Edmds.)

  Smith, Abel H.(Hertford, East)

  Bull, Sir William James

  Hill, Sir Clement (Shrewsbury)

  Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)

  Butcher, Samuel Henry

  Houston, Robert Paterson

  Starkey, John R.

  Carlile, E. Hildred

  Kennaway, Rt. Hn. Sir John H.

  Stone, Sir Benjamin

  Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

  Kenyon-Slaney, Rt. Hn. Col. W.

  Thomson, W. Mitchell-(Lanark)

  Cave, George

  Kimber, Sir Henry

  Thornton, Percy M.

  Cavendish, Rt. Hn. Victor C.W.

  Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm.

  Tuke, Sir John Batty

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Lane-Fox, G. R.

  Turnour, Viscount

  Cecil, Lord R. (Marylebone, E.)

  Lee, Arthur H.(Hants., Fareh'm)

  Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid)

  Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. A. (Wore.)

  Lockwood, Rt. Hn. Lt. Col. A. R.

  Wilson, A. Stanley(York, E.R.)

  Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

  Londsale, John Brownlee

  Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart

  Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)

  Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred

  Younger, George

  Courthope, G. Loyd

  Magnus, Sir Philip

  Craig, Chas. Curtis (Antrim, S.)

  Mason, James F. (Windsor)

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Sir Alexander Acland-Hood and Lord Balcarres.

  Craig, Capt. James (Down, E.)

  Meysey-Thompson, E. C.

  Craik, Sir Henry

  Moore, William

  MR. FELL MR. FELL moved to insert before the word "person" the word "lawfully," which would make the clause apply only to an elector "lawfully" registered. He could not conceive that there would be any objection to the Amendment.
  SIR FREDERICK BANBURY, in seconding, said the Amendment was designed to meet the case of a man who was on two registers but was only entitled to be on one. A man might leave one constituency and go to another and not satisfy the
  114
  overseers that he had left, and it was nobody's interest to take him off the list. Therefore he would remain on the register for the residence he had left, say, at Yarmouth, and would be unable to vote in another: place, say in Middlesex, to which he had moved. The Amendment seemed a simple way out of the difficulty. He did not think the right hon. Gentleman's' new clause would meet the point, and enable a man to vote in another constituency if he were on the register for, the place he had left. It would be very difficult for an elector to inquire into the matter.
  Amendment proposed to the Bill—
  "In page 1, line 5, after the word 'person' to insert the word 'lawfully.'"—(Mr. Fell.)
  Question proposed, "That the word 'lawfully' be there inserted in the Bill."
  MR. HARCOURTsaid he should not think of arguing that his new clause met a point which it was not necessary to meet. It was assumed that a man who was on the register was lawfully entitled to vote, although there were certain exceptions made, such as aliens, lunatics, peers, and women. It seemed to him that if this word were inserted the only effect would be that the alien or the lunatic who managed to get on a number of different registers would get an opportunity of voting. The word was absolutely unnecessary.
  Question put, and negatived.
  MR. COURTHOPE MR. COURTHOPE (Sussex, Rye) moved an Amendment restricting the application of the Bill to persons registered "for the first time after the passing of this Act" in more than one constituency. He said his object was to to take away from the Bill what he might call its retrospective nature—to obviate the destruction of existing electoral rights. He thought it would be much more reasonable to say to an elector who, subsequently to the passing of the Act, obtained a second qualification, "You shall not obtain a right to a second vote," but to destroy an existing right and take from him what he now enjoyed, owing to no fault of his own, and to impose upon him responsibilities and liabilities by virtue of what up to the present had merely been a right and a privilege, was a manifest injustice. It was not as if this Bill were proposing to carry out a great electoral reform. They were not reforming the system; they were not establishing the principle of one man one vote or of one vote one value; they were not doing away with the property qualification and making the electoral qualification one of manhood or of womanhood or of both; and until and unless a measure was introduced doing away with all anomalies instead of only one anomaly in our electoral system it was manifestly
  116
  preferable that the rights at present enjoyed should be maintained. The Bill did away with one anomaly and one only. It attacked the position of one class of voter and one class only. He thought that to rob the voter of the right he now enjoyed and to place him in a distinctly worse position than a man who had only one qualification was an injustice which ought not to be inflicted upon those who already possessed more than one vote. Another point in support of his Amendment was that the Bill or anything approaching it was apparently not contemplated before the general election. At all events it was not placed before the country, and the authority of the electors had certainly not been given to such a Bill, and so far as he could gather there was not the slightest intention, if the Bill passed, to go to the country on the subject. He would not argue the precedents of the Reform Bills; they were within everybody's memory, but he held that until the country had expressed a desire to give authority to the Government to do away with exercisable rights under our existing electoral system, the Government of the day should confine their measures to rights acquired in the future. The right hon. Gentleman in charge of the Bill had told them over and over again that this was not a disfranchising Bill. But although it was not a disfranchising Bill, in certain circum stances which would constantly arise it would say to a man, "Although you are not disfranchised you may not vote, or you may not vote without incurring very grave penalties." That to his mind was very much the same as saying to a man, "You are temporarily disfranchised for the purposes of this election." If the right hon. Gentleman was sincere in saying that the Bill would not have a disfranchising effect he could easily carry out that intention by con fining its provisions to future qualifications. He hoped the right hon. Gentleman would not, because they raised this point, accuse him or his hon. friends of ingratitude for the concessions they had received. He thoroughly recognised and appreciated the efforts which the right hon. Gentleman had made to which attention had been drawn to meet difficulties.

  117
  But this was a question of principle, and on that question the right hon. Gentle man and his colleagues had not given way one inch. He thought he was justified in urging the House seriously to consider the question of what he might call the retrospective nature of the Bill, which inflicted an injustice on existing plural voters by robbing them of rights they at present enjoyed and, in addition, placing upon their shoulders the burden of new responsibilities.
  Amendment proposed to the Bill—
  "In page 1, line 5, after the word 'registered' to insert the words 'for the first time after the passing of this Act.'"—(Mr. Courthope.)
  Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted in the Bill."
  MR. HARCOURTsaid the Amendment applied the provisions of the Bill only to new voters who came on the register as pluralists after the passing of this Bill. That, of course, would cut out all the plural voters who existed at this moment, to whom the hon. Member did not wish the Bill to apply, but to whom the Government intended it should apply. It was not the first time this change had been advocated. It was discussed in Committee, but as he (Mr. Harcourt) then pointed out, this was not a franchise, but a machinery Bill, and therefore the saving clauses sought to be inserted were not applicable. Even if the procedure were acceptable to the Government, it would be practically impossible to give effect to it. How was it to be shown on the register year after year who were pluralists at the date of the passing of the Bill? They would have to maintain a list for an entirely new class of voters, namely, those who had been pluralists before the passing of the Act. The ambiguity of the language of the Amendment it was not necessary to discuss in detail, because by this time the hon. Member would have appreciated the fact that he did not intend to accept it. As the hon. Member had stated, this was a question of principle,
  118
  and although the Government had been anxious to meet hon. Members opposite in all matters of machinery, they had no intention of giving up the principle of the Bill.
  MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAINsaid that having just stated that he did not intend to give any concession to the Opposition or to make any attempt to meet their wishes on the question of principle, the right hon. Gentleman ought not to be surprised if in. their turn the Opposition felt obliged to press these points again and again upon the House. The right hon. Gentleman had with his tact and good temper done wonders in the way in which he had pioneered this Bill through the House. But by calling it a machinery Bill could not make it otherwise than it was. It was not a franchise Bill; it was a disfranchising Bill, and the appeal the Opposition now made was that this disfranchising provision should be established only with regard to future qualifications, leaving any man now on the register his existing right to vote. It was easy for a Minister to criticise the phrasing of an Amendment drawn by a private Member without the expert assistance of the Government draughtsman, but if the principle were accepted it would be easy for the right hon. Gentleman to put the words into a more satisfactory shape. All he understood his hon. friend to desire was to preserve to the existing owner of a double qualification his right to vote. The right hon. Gentleman said that the proposal in any shape was impracticable; he himself did not think so. But would this Bill work? Did the right hon. Gentle man really think he had really produced a workable measure? He would be sorry to say anything that would cast even a moment's gloom over the right hon. Gentleman's satisfaction at his first Parliamentary bantling, but if the Bill was read with the proposed machinery hon. Members would agree that it was the sort of Bill that one might expect to be passed by a local debating society but never by this House.
  Question put.
  The House divided:—Ayes, 76; Noes, 357. (Division List No. 445.)

  AYES.

  Acland-Hood, Rt. Hn. Sir Alex F.

  Doughty, Sir George

  Parkes, Ebenezer

  Anstruther-Gray, Major

  Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

  Pease, Herbert Pike(Darlington)

  Ashley, W. W.

  Du Cros, Harvey

  Percy, Earl

  Balcarres, Lord

  Duncan, Robt. (Lanark, Govan)

  Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

  Baldwin, Alfred

  Faber, George Denison (York)

  Ratcliff, Major R. F.

  Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J.(City Lond.)

  Fardell, Sir T. George

  Remnant, James Farquharson

  Banner, John S. Harmood-

  Fell, Arthur

  Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert

  Beach, Hn. Michael Hugh Hicks

  Finch, Rt. Hon. George H.

  Rutherford, John (Lancashire)

  Beckett, Hon. Gervase

  Fletcher, J. S.

  Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert

  Bowles, G. Stewart

  Hamilton, Marquess of

  Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East)

  Boyle, Sir Edward

  Hervey, F. W. F.(Bury S. Edm'ds)

  Smith. Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)

  Bridgeman, W. Clive

  Hill, Sir Clement (Shrewsbury)

  Starkey, John R.

  Bull, Sir William James

  Hills, J. W.

  Stone, Sir Benjamin

  Butcher, Samuel Henry

  Houston, Robert Paterson

  Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

  Carlile, E. Hildred

  Kennaway, Rt. Hn. Sir John H.

  Thomson, W. Mitchell-(Lanark)

  Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

  Kenyon-Slaney, Rt. Hn. Col. W.

  Tuke, Sir John Batty

  Cave, George

  Kimber, Sir Henry

  Turnour, Viscount

  Cavendish, Rt. Hn. Victor C.W.

  Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm.

  Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid)

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Lane-Fox, G. R.

  Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E.R.)

  Cecil, Lord R. (Marylebone, E.)

  Lee, Arthur H.(Hants., Fareh'm)

  Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-

  Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. A.(Worc)

  Lonsdale, John Brownlee

  Wyndham, Rt. Hon George

  Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

  Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred

  Younger, George

  Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)

  Mason, James F. (Windsor)

  Craig, Chas. Curtis (Antrim, S.)

  Meysey-Thompson, E. C.

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr. Courthope and Sir Frederick Banbury.

  Craig, Capt. James (Down, E.)

  Moore, William

  Dixon, Sir Daniel

  Morpeth, Viscount

  Dixon-Hartland, Sir Fred Dixon

  Nield, Herbert

  NOES.

  Abraham, William (Rhondda)

  Black, Arthur W.(Bedfordshire)

  Cobbold, Felix Thornley

  Acland, Francis Dyke

  Boland, John

  Collins, Stephen (Lambeth)

  Adkins, W. Ryland D.

  Boulton, A. C. F. (Ramsey)

  Collins, Sir Wm. J. (S. Pancras, W.)

  Agnew, George William

  Bowerman, C. W.

  Condon, Thomas Joseph

  Ainsworth, John Stirling

  Brace, William

  Corbett, C. H.(Sussex, E Grinstd)

  Alden, Percy

  Bramsdon, T. A.

  Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.

  Allen, A. Acland (Christchurch)

  Branch, James

  Cory, Clifford John

  Allen, Charles P. (Stroud)

  Brigg, John

  Cotton, Sir H. J. S.

  Armstrong, W. C. Heaton

  Bright, J. A.

  Cowan, W. H.

  Ashton, Thomas Gair

  Brocklehurst, W. B.

  Cox, Harold

  Asquith, Rt. Hn. Herbert Henry

  Brodie, H. C.

  Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth)

  Astbury, John Meir

  Brooke, Stopford

  Crean, Eugene

  Atherley-Jones, L.

  Brunner, J. F. L.(Lancs., Leigh)

  Cremer, William Randal

  Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth)

  Brunner, Rt. Hn. Sir J. T. (Ches.)

  Crombie, John William

  Baker, Joseph A. (Finsbury, E.)

  Bryce. Rt. Hn. James (Aberdeen)

  Crosfield, A. H.

  Balfour, Robert (Lanark)

  Bryce, J. A.(Inverness Burghs)

  Crossley, William J.

  Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight)

  Buckmaster, Stanley O.

  Davies, David (Montgomery Co.)

  Barker, John

  Burke, E. Haviland-

  Davies, Ellis William (Eifion)

  Barlow, John Emmott (Somerset)

  Burns, Rt. Hon. John

  Davies, M. Vaughan- (Cardigan)

  Barlow, Percy (Bedford)

  Burnyeat, W. J. D.

  Davies, Timothy (Fulham)

  Barnard, E. B.

  Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas

  Davies, W. Howell (Bristol, S.)

  Barnes, G. N.

  Buxton, Rt. Hn. Sydney Chas.

  Dewar, Arthur (Edinburgh, S.)

  Barran, Rowland Hirst

  Byles, William Pollard

  Dickinson, W.H.(St. Pancras, N)

  Beale, W. P.

  Cairns, Thomas

  Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.

  Beauchamp, E.

  Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.

  Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

  Beaumont, Hn. W. C. B.(Hexhm)

  Carr-Gomm, H. W.

  Dillon, John

  Beck, A. Cecil

  Causton, Rt. Hn. Richard Knight

  Donelan, Captain A.

  Bellairs, Carlyon

  Cawley, Sir Frederick

  Duffy, William J.

  Benn, W.(T'w'rH'mlets, S. Geo.)

  Chance, Frederick William

  Dunn, A. Edward (Camborne)

  Bennett, E. N.

  Channing, Sir Francis Allston

  Dunne, Major E. Martin(Walsall)

  Berridge, T. H. D.

  Cheetham, John Frederick

  Edwards, Clement (Denbigh)

  Bertram, Julius

  Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R.

  Edwards, Enoch(Hanley)

  Bethell, Sir J. H.(Essex, Romf'rd)

  Churchill, Winston Spencer

  Edwards, Frank (Radnor)

  Bethell, T. R. (Essex, Maldon)

  Clarke, C. Goddard,

  Elibank, Master of

  Billson, Alfred

  Cleland, J. W.

  Ellis, Rt. Hon. John Edward

  Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine

  Clough, William

  Erskine, David C.

  Esmonde, Sir Thomas

  Kitson, Rt. Hon. Sir James

  Paul, Herbert

  Essex, R. W.

  Laidlaw, Robert

  Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek)

  Evans, Samuel T.

  Lamb, Edmund G.(Leominster)

  Pearce, William (Limehouse)

  Eve, Harry Trelawney

  Lambert, George

  Philipps, Col. Ivor (S'thampton)

  Everett, R. Lacey

  Lamont, Norman

  Philipps, Owen C. (Pembroke)

  Faber, G. H. (Boston)

  Law, Hugh A. (Donegal W.)

  Pickersgill, Edward Hare

  Fenwick, Charles

  Layland-Barratt, Francis

  Pirie, Duncan V.

  Ferens, T. R.

  Lea, Hugh Cecil(St. Pancras, E.)

  Pollard, Dr.

  Fiennes, Hon. Eustace

  Leese, Sir Joseph F.(Accrington)

  Power, Patrick Joseph

  Findlay, Alexander

  Lever, A. Levy(Essex, Harwich)

  Price, C. E. (Edinb'gh, Central)

  Flynn, James Christopher

  Levy, Maurice

  Price, Robt. John (Norfolk, E.)

  Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Priestley, W. E. B.(Bradford, E.)

  Freeman-Thomas, Freeman

  Lloyd-George, t. Hon. David

  Radford, G. H.

  Fuller, John Michael F.

  Lough, Thomas

  Rainy, A. Rolland

  Fullerton, Hugh

  Lundon, W.

  Raphael, Herbert H.

  Gibb, James (Harrow)

  Lupton, Arnold

  Rea, Russell (Gloucester)

  Gill, A. H.

  Luttrell, Hugh Fownes

  Redmond, John E. (Waterford)

  Ginnell, L.

  Lyell, Charles Henry

  Redmond, William (Clare)

  Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herbert John

  Lynch, H. B.

  Rees, J. D.

  Glendinning, R. G.

  Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk B'ghs)

  Rendall, Athelstan

  Goddard, Daniel Ford

  Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.

  Renton, Major Leslie

  Gooch, George Peabody

  MacNeill, John Gordon Swift

  Richards, T. F.(Wolverh'mpt'n)

  Greenwood, G. (Peterborough)

  Macpherson, J. T.

  Richardson, A.

  Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward

  MacVeagh, Jeremiah (Down, S.)

  Rickett, J. Compton

  Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill

  MacVeigh, Chas. (Donegal, E.)

  Ridsdale, E. A.

  Gulland, John W.

  M'Callum, John M.

  Roberts, G. H. (Norwich)

  Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

  M'Crae, George

  Robertson, Rt. Hn. E. (Dundee)

  Hall, Frederick

  M'Hugh, Patrick A.

  Robertson, Sir G. Scott(Bradf'rd)

  Halpin, J.

  M'Kenna, Reginald

  Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside)

  Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Lewis

  M'Killop, W.

  Robinson, S.

  Hardie, J. Keir (Merthyr Tydvil)

  M'Laren, H. D. (Stafford, W.)

  Robson, Sir William Snowdon

  Hardy, George A. (Suffolk)

  M'Micking, Major G.

  Rogers, F. E. Newman

  Harmsworth, Cecil B. (Worc'r)

  Maddison, Frederick

  Rose, Charles Day

  Hart-Davies, T.

  Mallet, Charles E.

  Rowlands, J.

  Haslam, James (Derbyshire)

  Manfield, Harry (Northants)

  Runciman, Walter

  Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth)

  Marks, G. Croydon (Launceston)

  Rutherford, V. H. (Brentford)

  Haworth, Arthur A.

  Marnham, F. J.

  Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)

  Hayden, John Patrick

  Mason, A. E. W. (Coventry)

  Scott, A. H.(Ashton-under-Lyne)

  Hazel, Dr. A. E.

  Massie, J.

  Sears, J. E.

  Holme, Norval Watson

  Masterman, C. F. G.

  Seaverns, J. H.

  Hemmerde, Edward George

  Meagher, Michael

  Seddon, J.

  Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

  Menzies, Walter

  Seely, Major J. B.

  Henderson, J. M.(Aberdeen, W.)

  Mond, A.

  Shackleton, David James

  Henry, Charles S.

  Money, L. G. Chiozza

  Shaw, Rt. Hon. T. (Hawick B.)

  Herbert, Col. Ivor (Mon., S.)

  Mooney, J. J.

  Shipman, Dr. John G.

  Herbert, T. Arnold (Wycombe)

  Morley, Rt. Hon. John

  Silcock, Thomas Ball

  Higham, John Sharp

  Morrell, Philip

  Sinclair, Rt. Hon. John

  Hobart, Sir Robert

  Morse, L. L.

  Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie

  Hobhouse, Charles E. H.

  Morton, Alpheus Cleophas

  Soames, Arthur Wellesley

  Hodge, John

  Murray, James

  Soares, Ernest J.

  Hogan, Michael

  Myer, Horatio

  Spicer, Sir Albert

  Holland, Sir William Henry

  Napier, T. B.

  Stanger, H. Y.

  Hooper, A. G.

  Newnes, Sir George (Swansea)

  Stanley, Hon. A. Lyulph (Chesh.)

  Hope, W. Bateman(Somerset N.)

  Nicholls, George

  Steadman, W. C.

  Horniman, Emslie John

  Nicholson, Chas. N (Doncast'r)

  Stewart, Halley (Greenock)

  Howard, Hon. Geoffrey

  Nolan, Joseph

  Sullivan, Donal

  Hudson, Walter

  Norton, Capt. Cecil William

  Summerbell, T.

  Hyde, Clarendon

  Nussey, Thomas Willans

  Taylor, John W. (Durham)

  Idris, T. H. W.

  Nuttall, Harry

  Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)

  Jackson, R. S.

  O'Brien, Kendal Tipperary, Mid

  Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.)

  Jacoby, Sir James Alfred

  O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

  Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr)

  Jardine, Sir J.

  O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)

  Thomasson, Franklin

  Jenkins, J.

  O'Doherty, Philip

  Thompson, J. W. H.(Somerset, E.)

  Johnson, John (Gateshead)

  O'Donnell, C. J. (Walworth)

  Tillett, Louis John

  Johnson, W. (Nuneaton)

  O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S.)

  Tomkinson, James

  Jones, Leif (Appleby)

  O'Dowd, John

  Torrance, Sir A. M.

  Jowett, F. W.

  O'Hare, Patrick

  Toulmin, George

  Joyce, Michael

  O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.)

  Trevelyan, Charles Philips

  Kekewich, Sir George

  O'Kelly, James(Roscommon N.)

  Ure, Alexander

  Kelley, George D.

  O'Malley, William

  Vivian, Henry

  Kennedy, Vincent Paul

  O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

  Wadsworth, J

  Kincaid-Smith, Captain

  Parker, James (Halifax)

  Walker, H. de R. (Leicester)

  King, Alfred John (Knutsford)

  Partington, Oswald

  Walsh, Stephen

  122

  123

  Walters, John Tudor

  White, J. D. (Dumbartonshire)

  Wilson, P. W. (St. Pancras, S.)

  Walton, Sir John L. (Leeds, S.)

  White, Luke (York, E. R.)

  Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)

  Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

  White, Patrick (Meath, North)

  Winfrey, R.

  Ward, W. Dudley(Southampton)

  Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

  Wood, T. M'Kinnon

  Wardle, George J.

  Whittaker, Sir Thomas Palmer

  Young, Samuel

  Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan)

  Wiles, Thomas

  Yoxall, James Henry

  Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney)

  Williams, J. (Glamorgan)

  Waterlow, D. S.

  Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr. Whiteley and Mr. J. A. Pease.

  Watt, H. Anderson

  Wilson, Hon. C. H. W.(Hull, W.)

  Wedgwood, Josiah C.

  Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R.)

  Whitbread, Howard

  Wilson, John (Durham, Mid)

  White, George (Norfolk)

  Wilson, J. H. (Middlesbrough)

  MR. COURTHOPE MR. COURTHOPE moved to insert after "Parliamentary elector" the words "in respect of ownership," with the view of confining the scope of the clause to qualification founded on ownership. As in the last case, he did not in the least anticipate that the Government would give way on this point, but he felt it was incumbent upon him to press it, because he thought the Bill, without some such Amendment as this, would produce a very great anomaly which went against many cherished ideas of our constitutional system as regarded the electoral basis on which our elections were run. The effect would be that a person who had a stake in the country by way of property in a different place from that where he had a stake in respect of residence or occupation would not by this Bill be deprived of the right of exercising one vote in respect of that property. The Amendment was in the interests of a very large and important class of business men, traders, manufacturers, and so on, who had very large stakes in the country apart and very often long distances from their residences. It seemed strange that men who were in many cases the largest taxpayers and ratepayers in a district, who owned the most important interests there, should be deprived of their right to a voice in the representation of that district unless they sacrificed their right to vote on their residential qualification. It would be different if Parliament were reforming the electoral basis, but they were not. They still said that because a man owned property of a certain value, he had a qualification, and because he occupied property of a certain value he also had a qualification, and yet when he had both these qualifications he had to select one of them. He did not think that was reasonable. It might be reasonable to say if a man
  124
  had a property qualification he should only have one vote in that respect. He would still be entitled to some representation for the property he had at stake in the country; but as the Bill stood now he had to lose one or the other. He would be able to vote in respect of the property he owned or in respect of the property he occupied. That was illogical and unreasonable. He hoped the House would give this matter consideration. He knew quite well that it was brought up in Committee and rejected, but he did not entirely despair that the right hon. Gentleman might find it possible to adopt this or some similar Amendment.
  MR. STANLEY WILSONseconded.
  Amendment proposed to the Bill—
  "In page 1, line 5, after the word 'elector' to insert the words 'in respect of ownership.'" —(Mr. Courthope.)
  Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted in the Bill."
  MR. HARCOURTsaid this was a proposal which he could not accept, as the Bill was directed against plural voting generally, and not merely plural voting which arose from ownership. The object of the Bill was to put an end to plural voting, no matter from what source the qualifications were derived. The anxiety of the Opposition for the plural voter was apparently concerned more with the occupation of land than with any other qualification.
  MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAINdemurred to the statement that the interest of the Opposition in the plural voter was confined to the case in which he was voting in respect of the possession of land. In previous debates he had laid stress on the case of the

  125
  plural voter who had his business premises in one place and his house in another, it being unnecessary to own land at all. He had always contended that where a man was substantially associated by ownership with the life and welfare of two places it was hard to say that he should not vote for the Member of Parliament for both of these places. His interests in the two localities might be divergent, or of such a nature that representation by a single Member of the House of Commons would be inadequate.
  MAJOR SEELYsaid the view of the right hon. Gentleman was—one rich man, two votes; one poor man, one vote.
  MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAINasked why the hon. Gentleman supposed that everyone who came under the description of owner of property was a rich man? A large number of shopkeepers, who wore not rich, would come under this Amendment.
  MAJOR SEELYreplied that the terms "rich" and "poor" were always used relatively. The right hon. Gentleman proposed that a man who had business premises in one place and resided in another should have two votes. Why did he not propose that a workman who lived in one constituency and worked in another should also have two votes? In truth, residence and manhood were the only proper qualifications for the franchise.
  SIR E. CARSONcongratulated the hon. and gallant Gentle man on having broken through the conspiracy of silence entered into by the occupants of the back Ministerial Benches. If every man might vote for the 670 Members of the House of Commons, and there was no question of local interests involved, he would agree that each man ought to have only one vote. But did anyone suppose that local interests had nothing to do with the exercise of the franchise in this country? He instanced the case of Kidderminster, where there was a particular kind of interest which they wished to have represented in the House of Commons. Let some hon. Members opposite go down to Kidderminster and inform the electors
  126
  that in the interest of equality of votes they ought to have their power taken away, and allow their own local interest to be swamped by a number of farmers who were not interested in the particular industry of Kidderminster. They would then very soon find out what the electors of Kidderminster thought of the right of returning a representative interested in local matters. Was it fair in case an Irishman happened to be living in England and possessed property in Ireland that he should be prevented from having any voice in the selection of the representative of the locality in which his property was situated? The truth of the matter was that in fairness or logic, so long as they recognised that particular districts and particular interests should be represented in this House, they could not argue that voters with interests in two constituencies should vote only in one.
  THE ATTORNEY-GENERAL (Sir JOHN WALTON, Leeds, S.)said there were so many anomalies in connection with the existing state of the law that it was quite refreshing to hear that the right hon. and learned Gentleman had been able to produce an argument in support of what he should have thought was one of its most glaring defects. What was the amazing proposition which his right hon. friend asked the House to adopt? He said that the issue submitted to the electors varied according to the locality in which they resided; that there might be different issues presented in Scotland, the English provinces, and the Metropolitan area, and a voter holding qualifications in all these parts of the country might logically record one vote for a Conservative, another for a Liberal, and a third for a Labour candidate, so that the mere question of local association or locality might be perfectly consistent with those votes which neutralised each other. Was it seriously contended that the issues on which hon. Members were returned to this House were not Imperial issues? Was it seriously contended that they varied, having regard to the locality in which the voters were interested?
  SIR E. CARSONasked whether the hon. and learned Gentleman meant to say that in a mining district miners, when they voted, were merely moved by Imperial issues.
  SIR JOHN WALTONsaid they were moved by Imperial issues. He could quite understand that a man might be in favour of a county council of one complexion in one county and of a county council of a different complexion in another county, because he might take the view that politics had no proper place in local government, and that the recognition of political alliances by those who managed local affairs Was a disturbing and not a moderating and legitimate influence. But when they came to consider the issue on which an appeal was being made to the country by the Government responsible for that appeal, was there anybody who said that a voter would be justified, when discharging his duty as a citizen, in disregarding the grounds on which the appeal was made, putting the Imperial issue aside, and exercising the franchise having regard to some small and petty question connected with his own trade? He did not say that such conduct did not take place, because men were influenced by such considerations, but he did say that it was not legitimate. Let them take those public spirited gentlemen who occupied the imagination of his right hon. and learned friend. A man in Durham would cast, say, a Conservative vote and send a Member to Parliament to support the Conservative Party and to use his utmost influence in defeating Liberal measures; but the same man voting in Yorkshire where no disturbing colliery interest came into play, would have regard to the bearing of the Imperial issue and cast his vote for the Liberal.
  SIR E. CARSON: That is not my argument.
  SIR JOHN WALTONsaid he under stood the right hon. and learned Gentle man to say that a man might advance in one county principles which in another county he had been opposing. That reduced the whole system of the constitution to confusion. The right hon. and learned Gentleman might mean that there were men who would sacrifice the Imperial issue on which they were invited to vote, because they desired that some small trade issue should be pressed at the expense of the community of which they formed a part. The position of such an elector would be difficult to defend, and he ought not to be protected
  128
  by the provisions of our legislation. What ever might be said in favour of plural: voting, it was pretty clear that it was not defensible on the ground that a person with four qualifications should exercise his vote from Imperial considerations in one constituency and from merely local considerations in another. The issue to be considered was the same whatever the locality, and he wished to protest against the argument that a plurality of votes was defensible on the ground that the possessor of them was morally justified in voting in favour of one set of principles and one body of statesmen in one constituency and against the same principles and statesmen in another.
  MR. MITCHELL-THOMSONsaid the hon. and learned Gentle man had set up a man of straw for the purpose of demolishing him. They all knew that in different constituencies different questions were thrown into greater or less relief. Would hon. Gentlemen opposite deny that? The thing had been proved over and over again this session by the fact that hon. Gentlemen opposite had in all sincerity got up in their places and assured the House in regard to half a dozen questions that they had received a special mandate from the constituencies. In some parts of the country the issue was said to have been Chinese labour, while in other parts it was contended that the chief question was Home Rule or education. The representation of the locality was a most important factor in the political composition of the House. Their chief complaint against this Bill was that for the first time in the history of the country the Government said there should be taxation without representation.
  MR. MONDpointed out that Imperial taxation was one thing and local taxation another. The fact that a man owned shares on which he paid Imperial tax in London, and that he had property in Wales and in other parts of the country on which he paid land tax, did not make him an Imperial taxpayer more than once. Right hon. and hon. Gentlemen on the Opposition Benches were confusing local and Imperial taxation. The Ex-Chancellor of the Exchequer had pleaded for local interest, and the right hon. the Ex-Solicitor-General had urged that

  129
  the man with two votes would be able to give one for the Empire, and the other for the carpet factory, the hardware warehouse, or the sausage shop. Who talked now about the village pump? Where was the Party with Imperial aims? Where were the Little Englanders? They were not on the Ministerial side of the House. The argument of his hon. friend the Member for Abercromby that work was of more importance than wealth had been misunderstood. He only referred to the case of a man who worked in one place, and lived in another; and it had been overlooked that a man could only vote once in a borough election, although that division might be divided into several constituencies, and he had property in each. Hon. Gentlemen on the Opposition Benches were fighting very hard to retain some of their most cherished privileges.
  LORD E. CECILsaid that they were greatly indebted to hon. Gentlemen for having raised this question which was of more than passing interest. It was for hon. Members to consider whether they desired to reduce the House of Commons to a condition which would encourage the Government to resort to the guillotine on every possible occasion. The Amendment was of great interest from a constitutional point of view. The Attorney-General's proposition was that every voter at an election voted on what he called an Imperial issue. That was an imaginary issue. He thought it would puzzle the hon. and learned Gentleman to say what an Imperial issue was.
  MR. MOND: Free trade.
  SIR JOHN WALTONsaid that he did not mean Imperial in the sense of something which affected the Empire as a whole, but Imperial as distinguished from local.
  LORD R. CECILsaid it could not be alleged that there was a definite Imperial issue submitted to the country at every general election. It must be a mixed issue of Imperial and local questions. The point the elector would consider was whether he should vote for a Labour candidate, a Liberal candidate, a
  130
  Tory candidate, or a Nationalist candidate. But there was also the consideration of the personality of the candidate, and whether he would in fact represent the constituency from a larger and Imperial point of view. He thought that electors were well advised when they gave due weight to a man who had lived his life in the locality, and whose character they admired, who stood against a gentleman from London, sent down by the Party organisation, having no interest in the locality, who might be a fluent and ready speaker, but who, in fact, was a "carpet-bagger." If that were so, it was right that the House should preserve the element of locality in the representation of the country. That argument seemed to him to be unanswerable, and the moment the element of locality was admitted, it was likewise admitted that the principle of this Bill was wrong. The hon. and gallant Member for the Abercromby division had used an argument likely to attract a great deal of popular sympathy, viz., that they on the Opposition side of the House were striving to preserve the privilege of the rich as against the poor. Of course, that was the stock in trade of hon. Gentle men opposite. It was said that the Liberal candidate at Huddersfield was the friend of the poor, and that the Tory and Labour candidates were not. They were not now remodelling the franchise legislation of the country. He had protested constantly against these miserable efforts to alter one feature of it which had been a disadvantage to one party—to deal with one anomaly, without dealing with other anomalies. The question he had to consider was whether within the limits of this Bill they were going to say that the element of locality should have no influence. It might be that in asserting the principle of locality they would in fact do more good to the rich than to the poor; but that was not their fault. Their desire was simply to enforce the principle of locality. If the hon. Member for the Abercromby division introduced a Bill to give an extra vote to the working man who lived away from his work, he would give it his impartial consideration. He saw a great deal to recommend it on principle, but until he had such a Bill in print before him he should hesitate to say how it could be carried

  131
  out. It was not because plural rotes were held by the richer classes that they wished to retain them, but because they were genuinely anxious to preserve, if they could, the element of locality on which hitherto our electoral system had been founded. He had no
  hesitation whatever in supporting the Amendment.
  Question put.
  The House divided:—Ayes, 67: Noes, 337. (Division List No. 446.)

  AYES.

  Acland-Hood, Rt. Hn. Sir Alex. F.

  Dixon, Sir Daniel

  Morpeth, Viscount

  Anstruther-Gray, Major

  Dixon-Hartland, Sir Fred Dixon

  Parkes, Ebenezer

  Arkwright, John Stanhope

  Doughty, Sir George

  Pease, Herbert Pike(Darlington)

  Ashley, W. W.

  Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

  Percy Earl

  Balcarres, Lord

  Duncan, Robert (Lanark, Govan)

  Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

  Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J.(City Lond.)

  Faber, George Denison (York)

  Remnant, James Farquharson.

  Banbury, Sir Frederick George

  Fell, Arthur

  Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert

  Banner, John S. Harmood-

  Finch, Rt. Hon. George H.

  Rutherford, John (Lancashire)

  Beach, Hn. Michael Hugh Hicks

  Fletcher, J. S.

  Smith, Abel H.(Hertford, East)

  Beckett, Hon. Gervase

  Hamilton, Marquess of

  Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)

  Bowles, G. Stewart

  Hervey, F. W. F.(Bury, S Edmd's)

  Starkey, John R.

  Bridgeman, W. Clive

  Houston, Robert Paterson

  Stone, Sir Benjamin

  Butcher, Samuel Henry

  Kennaway, Rt. Hon. Sir John H.

  Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

  Carlile, E. Hildred

  Kenyon-Slaney, Rt. Hn. Col. W.

  Thomson, W. Mitchell-(Lanark)

  Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

  Kimber, Sir Henry

  Thornton, Percy M.

  Cave, George

  Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm.

  Tuke, Sir John Batty

  Cavendish, Rt. Hn. Victor C.W.

  Lane-Fox, G. R.

  Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid)

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Law, Andrew Bonar (Dulwich)

  Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

  Cecil, Lord R. (Marylebone, E)

  Lockwood, Rt. Hn. Lt.-Col. A. R.

  Younger, George

  Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. A.(Worc)

  Lonsdale, John Brownlee

  Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

  Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr. Courthope and Mr. Stanley Wilson.

  Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)

  Mason, James F. (Windsor)

  Craig, Capt. Jas. (Down, E.)

  Meysey-Thompson, E. C.

  Craik, Sir Henry

  Moore, William

  NOES.

  Abraham, William (Rhondda)

  Boulton, A. C. F. (Ramsey)

  Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow)

  Acland, Francis Dyke

  Bowerman, C. W.

  Corbett, CH.(Sussex, E.(Grinst'd)

  Adkins, W. Ryland D.

  Brace, William

  Cotton, Sir H. J. S.

  Agnew, George William

  Bramsdon, T. A.

  Cowan, W. H.

  Ainsworth, John Stirling

  Branch, James

  Cox, Harold

  Alden, Percy

  Brigg, John

  Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth)

  Allen, A. Acland (Christchurch)

  Bright, J. A.

  Crean, Eugene

  Allen, Charles P. (Stroud)

  Brocklehurst, W. B.

  Cremer, William Randal

  Armstrong, W. C. Heaton

  Brooke, Stopford

  Crombie, John William

  Ashton, Thomas Gair

  Brunner, J. F. L. (Lanes., Leigh)

  Crosfield, A. H.

  Asquith, Rt. Hn. Herbert Henry

  Brunner, Rt. Hn. Sir J.T.(Chesh.)

  Crossley, William J.

  Astbury, John Meir

  Bryce, Rt. Hn. James(Aberdeen)

  Davies, David(Montgomery Co.)

  Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth)

  Bryce, J. A. (Inverness Burghs)

  Davies, Ellis William (Eifion)

  Baker, Joseph A. (Finsbury, E.)

  Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn

  Davies, W. Howell (Bristol, S.)

  Balfour, Robert (Lanark)

  Buckmaster, Stanley O.

  Dewar, Arthur (Edinburgh, S.)

  Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight)

  Burke, E. Haviland-

  Dickinson, W. H. (St. Pancras, N.)

  Barker, John

  Burns, Rt. Hon. John

  Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.

  Barlow, John Emmott (S'mers't)

  Burnyeat, W. J. D.

  Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

  Barlow, Percy (Bedford)

  Buxton, Rt. Hn. Sydney Chas.

  Dillon, John

  Barnard, E. B.

  Byles, William Pollard

  Donelan, Captain A.

  Barnes, G. N.

  Cairns, Thomas

  Duffy, William J.

  Barran, Rowland Hirst

  Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.

  Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness)

  Beale, W. P.

  Cawley, Sir Frederick

  Dunn, A. Edward (Camborne)

  Beaumont, Hn. W. C. B.(Hexh'm)

  Chance, Frederick William

  Dunne, Major E. Martin(Walsall)

  Beck, A. Cecil

  Channing, Sir Francis Allston

  Edwards, Clement (Denbigh)

  Bellairs, Carlyon

  Cheetham, John Frederick

  Edwards, Enoch (Hanley)

  Benn, W.(T'w'r Hamlets, S. Geo.)

  Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R.

  Elibank, Master of

  Berridge, T. H. D.

  Churchill, Winston Spencer

  Ellis, Rt. Hon. John Edward

  Bertram, Julius

  Clarke, C. Goddard

  Esmonde, Sir Thomas

  Bethell, Sir J. H.(Essex, Romfrd)

  Cleland, J. W.

  Essex, R. W.

  Bethell, T. R. (Essex, Maldon)

  Clough, William

  Evans, Samuel T.

  Billson, Alfred

  Collins, Stephen (Lambeth)

  Eve, Harry Trelawney

  Black, Arthur W.(Bedfordshire)

  Collins, Sir W. M. J.(S. Pancras, W)

  Everett, R. Lacey

  Boland, John

  Condon, Thomas Joseph

  Faber, G. H. (Boston)

  Fenwick, Charles

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Rea, Russell (Gloucester)

  Ferens, T. R.

  Lloyd-George, Rt. Hon. David

  Redmond, John E. (Waterford)

  Fiennes, Hon. Eustace

  Lough, Thomas

  Redmond, William (Clare)

  Findlay, Alexander

  Lundon, W.

  Rees, J. D.

  Flynn, James Christopher

  Lupton, Arnold

  Rendall, Athelstan

  Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

  Lyell, Charles Henry

  Renton, Major Leslie

  Fuller, John Michael F.

  Lynch, H. B.

  Richards, T. F.(Wolverh'mpt'n)

  Fullerton, Hugh

  Macdonald, J.M.(Falkirk B'ghs)

  Richardson, A.

  Gibb, James (Harrow)

  Mackarness, Frederic C.

  Rickett, J. Compton

  Gill, A. H.

  Macpherson, J. T.

  Ridsdale, E. A.

  Ginnell, L.

  MacVeagh, Jeremiah (Down, S.)

  Roberts, G. H. (Norwich)

  Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herbert John

  MacVeigh, Chas. (Donegal, E.)

  Robertson, Rt. Hn. E.(Dundee)

  Glendinning, R. G.

  M'Callum, John M.

  Robertson, Sir G. Scott(Bradfrd)

  Goddard, Daniel Ford

  M'Crac, George

  Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside)

  Gooch, George Peabody

  M'Hugh, Patrick A.

  Robinson, S.

  Greenwood, G. (Peterborough)

  M'Kenna, Reginald

  Robson, Sir William Snowdon

  Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward

  M'Killop, W.

  Rogers, F. E. Newman

  Griffith, Ellis J.

  M'Laren, Sir C. B. (Leicester)

  Rose, Charles Day

  Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill

  M'Laren, H. D. (Stafford, W.)

  Rowlands, J.

  Gulland, John W.

  M'Micking, Major G.

  Runciman, Walter

  Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

  Maddison, Frederick

  Rutherford, V. H. (Brentford)

  Hall, Frederick

  Mallet, Charles E.

  Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool)

  Halpin, J.

  Manfield, Harry (Northants)

  Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)

  Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Lewis

  Markham, Arthur Basil

  Scott, A. H.(Ashton-under-Lyne)

  Hardie, J. Keir (Merthyr Tydvil)

  Marks, G. Croydon(Launceston)

  Sears, J. E.

  Hardy, George A. (Suffolk)

  Marnham, F. J.

  Seaverns, J. H.

  Harmsworth, Cecil B. (Worc'r)

  Mason, A. E. W. (Coventry)

  Seddon, J.

  Hart-Davies, T.

  Massie, J.

  Seely, Major J. B.

  Haslam, James (Derbyshire)

  Masterman, C. F. G,

  Shaekleton, David James

  Haslam, Lewis (Momnouth)

  Meagher, Michael

  Shaw, Rt. Hon. T. (Hawick B.)

  Haworth, Arthur A.

  Menzies, Walter

  Shipman, Dr. John G.

  Hayden, John Patrick

  Micklem, Nathaniel

  Silcock, Thomas Ball

  Hazel, Dr. A. E.

  Mond, A.

  Sinclair, Rt. Hon. John

  Helme, Norval Watson

  Money, L. G. Chiozza

  Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie

  Hemmerde, Edward George

  Mooney, J. J.

  Soames, Arthur Wellesley

  Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

  Morrell, Philip

  Soares, Ernest J.

  Henderson, J.M.(Aberdeen, W.)

  Morse, L. L.

  Spicer, Sir Albert

  Henry, Charles S.

  Myer, Horatio

  Stanger, H. Y.

  Herbert, Col. Ivor (Mon., S.)

  Napier, T. B.

  Stanley, Hn. A. Lyulph (Chesh.)

  Herbert, T. Arnold (Wycombe)

  Newnes, Sir George (Swansea)

  Steadman, W. C.

  Higham, John Sharp

  Nicholls, George

  Stewart, Halley (Greenock)

  Hobart, Sir Robert

  Nicholson, Chas. N. (Doncast'r)

  Sullivan, Donal

  Hobhouse, Charles E. H.

  Nolan, Joseph

  Summerbell, T.

  Hodge, John

  Norton, Capt. Cecil William

  Taylor, John W. (Durham)

  Hogan, Michael

  Nuttall, Harry

  Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)

  Holland, Sir William Henry

  O'Brien, Kendal(Tipperary Mid)

  Tennant, H. J. (Berwickshire)

  Hooper, A. G.

  O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

  Thomas, Sir A.(Glamorgan, E.)

  Hope, W. Bateman(Somerset, N.)

  O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)

  Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr)

  Horniman, Emslie John

  O'Doherty, Philip

  Thomasson, Franklin

  Hudson, Walter

  O'Donnell, C. J. (Walworth)

  Thompson, J. W. H.(Somerset, E.)

  Hyde, Clarendon

  O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S.)

  Tillett, Louis John

  Idris, T. H. W.

  O'Dowd, John

  Tomkinson, James

  Isaacs, Rufus Daniel

  O'Hare, Patrick

  Torrance, Sir A. M.

  Jackson, R. S.

  O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.)

  Toulmin, George

  Jardine, Sir J.

  O'Kelly, Jas. (Roscommon, N.)

  Trevelyan, Charles Philips

  Jenkins, J.

  O'Malley, William

  Ure, Alexander

  Johnson, John (Gateshead)

  O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

  Vivian, Henry

  Johnson, W. (Nuneaton)

  Parker, James (Halifax)

  Wadsworth, J.

  Jones, Leif (Appleby)

  Partington, Oswald

  Walsh, Stephen

  Jowett, F. W.

  Paul, Herbert

  Walters, John Tudor

  Joyce, Michael

  Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek)

  Walton, Sir John L. (Leeds, S.)

  Kekewich, Sir George

  Pearce, William (Limehouse)

  Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

  Kelley, George D.

  Philipps, Col. Ivor (S'thampton)

  Ward, W. Dudley(Southampton)

  Kennedy, Vincent Paul

  Philipps, Owen C. (Pembroke)

  Wardle, George J.

  King, Alfred John (Knutsford)

  Pickersgill, Edward Hare

  Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan)

  Laidlaw, Robert

  Pirie, Duncan V.

  Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney)

  Lamb, Edmund G.(Leominster)

  Power, Patrick Joseph

  Waterlow, D. S.

  Lambert, George

  Price, C. E. (Edinb'gh, Central)

  Watt, H. Anderson

  Lamont, Norman

  Price, Robt. John (Norfolk E.)

  Wedgwood, Josiah C.

  Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, W.)

  Priestley, W. E. B.(Bradford, E.)

  Whitbread, Howard

  Layland-Barratt, Francis

  Radford, G. H.

  White, George (Norfolk)

  Lea, Hugh Cecil(St. Pancras, E.)

  Rainy, A. Rolland

  White, J. D. (Dumbartonshire)

  Levy, Maurice

  Raphael, Herbert H.

  White, Luke (York, E. R.)

  134

  135

  White, Patrick (Meath, North)

  Wilson, John (Durham, Mid)

  Yoxall, James Henry

  Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

  Wilson, J. H. (Middlesbrough)

  Whittaker, Sir Thomas Palmer

  Wilson, P. W. (St. Pancras, S.)

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr. Whiteley and Mr. J. A. Pease.

  Wiles, Thomas

  Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)

  Williams, J. (Glamorgan)

  Winfrey, R.

  Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)

  Wood, T. M'Kinnon

  Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R.)

  Young, Samuel

  MR. FELL*MR. FELL moved to amend the clause so that it should read to the effect that a person registered as a Parliamentary elector in more than one constituency "who votes" except in the one constituency selected should come under the provisions of the Bill. He said that this was partly a drafting Amendment, although in other respects it raised a very important point by omitting the words which made it an offence for a plural voter "to ask for a ballot or voting paper." During the discussion in Committee it was pointed out how extremely onerous was the penalty inflicted upon a man who did not vote but who asked for a ballot or voting paper. Until the elector got into the polling booth and asked for this paper it might be perfectly possible for him not to be aware that he was registered in another constituency. Immediately he had obtained a ballot or voting paper, however, under this Bill he would have committed a crime for which he was liable to two years imprisonment. That was a very onerous provision. Clause 2 contained a proviso chat the presiding officer should not give into custody any person charged with personation under the Bill unless such person had actually voted, which implied that the mere asking for a voting paper made a man guilty of personation and a criminal. The clause as now drafted created a new crime, namely, that of asking for a ballot paper, and on these grounds he thought it would be clear to hon. Members that the clause as he proposed to amend it would be much more terse and would leave out the objectionable words by which a new crime was created.
  MR. LANE-FOXseconded.
  Amendment proposed to the Bill—
  "In page 1, line 6, to leave out from the word 'constituency' to the word 'during' in line 7, and to insert the words 'who votes.'"—(Mr. Fell.)
  Question proposed, "That the words 'shall not vote as such,' stand part of the Bill."
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER (Mr. ASQUITH,)said so far as he could make out, the effect of this Amendment, if it was inserted in the form proposed by the hon. Member, would be that there would be no prohibition of any sort or kind in the first part of the clause. The hon. Gentleman would have seen had he reflected a little more that there was no sense in the Amendment.
  Amendment negatived.
  MR. T.L. CORBETT MR. T.L. CORBETT moved to insert after the word "such," the words "at any general election." This Amendment was simply to try and make the avowed object of the Bill more clear than it was at present. As he understood it that object was to carry out the principle of one man one vote, but he feared the real object was to punish and penalise the political opponents of right hon. and hon. Gentlemen opposite. He believed the right hon. Gentleman desired to meet all reasonable suggestions, and that if he only had a free hand to accept Amendments the Bill would be put into a better shape. But the right hon. Gentleman recognised that his followers would be only too glad to accept a Bill giving penal servitude to every Unionist elector who attempted to vote. If the Bill was really aimed at carrying out the principle of one man one vote, the Amendment would afford a test of the sincerity of the right hon. Gentleman and his followers. At a general election there were a great many contests going on at the same time, which gave an opportunty to a voter so criminal as to have property in various parts to vote in more than one constituency. At a by-election it was clear that except on rare occasions there could only be one opportunity of voting, therefore it seemed a fair and reasonable proposal

  137
  that the principle should be maintained only at a general election. He begged to move.
  CAPTAIN CRAIGsaid in seconding this Amendment he would like to call the right hon. Gentleman's attention to the fact that enormous expense would be saved to those who had votes in several parts of the country. At a general election it would not be possible, as the clause now stood, for anyone to exercise the franchise more than once. It was also clear that considerable hardship would be placed on certain sections of voters, who at a by-election might have to travel at considerable expense from one part of the country to another to record their votes. In the first instance they might have starred themselves in a constituency very far away from that in which they found themselves when an election was sprung on them. The right hon. Gentleman's object would be fully attained by prohibiting more than one vote one man at a general election. It would save expense and trouble if plural voters were allowed to vote at by-elections. If a man had a qualification in two places, say London and Cork, and having starred for the City of London found himself in Cork at the next election, and desired to vote in Cork, it would be a great hardship if he had to go to the expense and inconvenience of crossing the Channel to record his vote in London. It would be a small concession for the right hon. Gentleman to accept the Amendment. They were not asking for a large concession, but merely one of more or less minor importance, especially when it was considered that the probabilities were that in the whole of the United Kingdom the plural voters were very frequently plural voters for an adjoining constituency. But undoubtedly there were a fair number of those who lived in out-of-the-way parts and had business in other parts of the country, so that really, although on the face of it the Amendment seemed to be a considerable change from what the Government intended, if it were closely examined it would be found that it did not affect the vital principles of the clause. He agreed as to the necessity of safeguarding those who neglected to select their constituency, but when all safeguards had been provided and everything laid down in the
  138
  machinery of the Bill had been done, there was bound to be a very large section in the country districts who had neglected to do what was required of them. This was not a Party Amendment at all. It was a reasonable and fair Amendment which he thought the Government ought to adopt.
  Amendment proposed to the Bill—
  "In page 1, line 6, after the word 'such' to insert the words 'at any general election.'" —(Mr. T. L. Corbett.)
  Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted in the Bill."
  MR. HARCOURTsaid the hon. Member who moved this Amendment stated that his point was quite clear. It was indeed. The hon. Gentleman proposed to limit the operation of the Act to a general election. [An HON. MEMBER: One man one vote. One man one vote at a general election, and one man to put in as many votes as he could at by-elections.
  MR. T. L. CORBETT: At a by-election a man could only vote once.
  MR. HARCOURTsaid there was more than one by-election in the life of a Parliament. This Amendment went back over the ground that had been covered so often during the Committee stage. If it were accepted they would necessarily have in a particular constituency a different electorate at a by-election from that at a general election. Hon. Members opposite for certain reasons did not think that a disadvantage, but he was sure it would not be to the advantage of the House, or of Members themselves, or of the country as a whole. He thought the Amendment was not reasonable, and he could not accept it.
  SIR FREDERICK BANBURYsaid he did not see any reason why the right hon. Gentleman should not accept the Amendment. It might or it might not be that if there were a by-election, and the plural voters were allowed to vote, there would be a different electorate when the general election came round, because it might happen that all the plural voters in the constituency had starred themselves in that constituency.

  139
  The by-election might have taken place three or four years before the general election. Unless the Government accepted this Amendment, a great number of people would be disqualified altogether. The right hon. Gentleman had said this -was not a disfranchising Bill, and yet he refused to accept an Amendment without which the Bill could disfranchise a man at a by-election. Over and over again they had heard from members of the Ministerial Party that the most important thing a man could have was the right to vote, and yet the right hon. Gentleman refused to accept a reasonable Amendment which a would do something to prevent the
  anomalies to which they all objected. He could not conceive any reason why the right hon. Gentleman should refuse this Amendment, unless he desired that the rich man should have no vote, while the poor man should have as many as he could get. This was a Reform Bill in the wrong direction. The Amendment did not touch the principle of the Bill, and under it no man would be able to vote twice in one year in any constituency.
  Question put.
  The House divided:—Ayes, 36; Noes, 282. (Division List No. 447.)

  AYES.

  Acland-Hood, Rt. Hn. Sir Alex F.

  Dixon, Sir Daniel

  Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

  Arkwright, John Stanhope

  Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

  Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool)

  Ashley, W. W.

  Duncan, Robert(Lanark, Govan)

  Starkey, John R.

  Balcarres, Lord

  Fell, Arthur

  Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

  Banbury, Sir Frederick George

  Finch, Rt. Hon. George H.

  Thomson, W. Mitchell-(Lanark)

  Banner, John S. Harmood-

  Fletcher, J. S.

  Tuke, Sir John Batty

  Beach, Hn. Michael Hugh Hicks

  Hamilton, Marquess of

  Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid)

  Bowles, G. Stewart

  Hills, J. W.

  Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.)

  Butcher, Samuel Henry

  Houston, Robert Paterson

  Carlile, E. Hildred

  Kennaway, Rt. Hn. Sir John H.

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr. T. L. Corbett and Viscount Turnour.

  Cave, George

  Kimber, Sir Henry

  Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

  Lane-Fox, G. R.

  Courthope, G. Loyd

  Lockwood, Rt. Hn. Lt.-Col. A. R.

  Craig, Capt. James (Down, E.)

  Pease, Herbert Pike(Darlington)

  NOES.

  Abraham, William (Rhondda)

  Bowerman, C. W.

  Davies, David (Montgomery Co.)

  Acland, Francis Dyke

  Brace, William

  Davies, Ellis William (Eifion)

  Adkins, W. Ryland D.

  Bramsdon, T. A.

  Davies, W. Howell (Bristol, S.)

  Agnew, George William

  Branch, James

  Dickinson, W.H.(St. Pancras, N.)

  Ainsworth, John Stirling

  Brigg, John

  Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.

  Alden, Percy

  Bright, J. A.

  Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

  Allen, A. Acland (Christchurch)

  Brocklehurst, W. B.

  Donelan, Captain A.

  Armstrong, W. C. Heaton

  Brooke, Stopford

  Duffy, William J.

  Ashton, Thomas Gair

  Brunner, J.F.L.(Lanes., Leigh)

  Duncan, C.(Barrow-in-Furness)

  Astbury, John Meir

  Brunner, Rt. Hn. Sir J. T.(Chesh.)

  Dunn, A. Edward (Camborne)

  Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth)

  Buckmaster, Stanley O.

  Dunne, Major E. Martin (Walsall)

  Baker, Joseph A.(Finsbury, E.)

  Burke, E. Haviland-

  Edwards, Enoch (Hanley)

  Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight)

  Burns, Rt. Hon. John

  Elibank, Master of

  Barker, John

  Burnyeat, W. J. D.

  Ellis, Rt. Hon. John Edward

  Barlow, John Emmott (Somerset)

  Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas

  Esmonde, Sir Thomas

  Barlow, Percy (Bedford)

  Byles, William Pollard

  Essex, R. W.

  Barnard, E. B.

  Cairns, Thomas

  Evans, Samuel T.

  Barnes, G. N.

  Chance, Frederick William

  Eve, Harry Trelawney

  Barran, Rowland Hirst

  Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R.

  Everett, R. Lacey

  Beale, W. P.

  Clarke, C. Goddard

  Faber, G. H. (Boston)

  Beaumont, Hn. W. C. B.(Hexhm)

  Cleland, J. W.

  Fenwick, Charles

  Beck, A. Cecil

  Clough, William

  Ferers, T. R.

  Bellairs, Carlyon

  Collins, Stephen (Lambeth)

  Findlay, Alexander

  Benn, W.(T'w'r Hamlets, S. Geo.)

  Collins, Sir Wm. J.(S. Pancras, W)

  Flynn, James Christopher

  Berridge, T. H. D.

  Condon, Thomas Joseph

  Fuller, John Michael F.

  Bethell, Sir J. H.(Essex, Romfrd)

  Corbett, CH.(Sussex, E. Grinst'd)

  Fullerton, Hugh

  Bethell, T. R. (Essex, Maldon)

  Cotton, Sir H. J. S.

  Gibb, James (Harrow)

  Billson, Alfred

  Cowan, W. H.

  Gill, A. H.

  Black, Arthur W.(Bedfordshire)

  Cox, Harold

  Glendinning, R. G.

  Boland, John

  Crean, Eugene

  Goddard, Daniel Ford

  Boulton, A. C. F. (Ramsey)

  Cremer, William Randal

  Gooch, George Peabody

  Greenwood, G. (Peterborough)

  MacVeigh, Chas. (Donegal, E.)

  Robinson, S.

  Gulland, John W.

  M'Calluin, John M.

  Rogers, F. E. Newman

  Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

  M'Crae, George

  Rose, Charles Day

  Hall, Frederick

  M'Hugh, Patrick A.

  Rowlands, J.

  Halpin, J.

  M'Kean, John

  Runciman, Walter

  Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Lewis

  M'Kenna, Reginald

  Rutherford, V. H. (Brentford)

  Hardie, J. Keir (Merthyr Tydvil)

  M'Killop, W.

  Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)

  Hardy, George A. (Suffolk)

  M'Laren, Sir C. B. (Leicester)

  Scott, A. L.(Ashton-under-Lyne)

  Hart-Davies, T.

  M'Laren, H. D. (Stafford, W.)

  Sears, J. E.

  Haslam, James (Derbyshire)

  M'Micking, Major G.

  Seaverns, J. H.

  Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth)

  Mallet, Charles E.

  Seddon, J.

  Haworth, Arthur A.

  Manfield, Harry (Northants)

  Shackleton, David James

  Hayden, John Patrick

  Markham, Arthur Basil

  Shaw, Rt. Hon. T. (Hawick B.)

  Hazel, Dr. A. E.

  Marks, G. Croydon(Launceston)

  Shipman, Dr. John G.

  Helme, Norval Watson

  Marnham, F. J.

  Silcock, Thomas Ball

  Hemmerde, Edward George

  Mason, A. E. W. (Coventry)

  Simon, John Allsebrook

  Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

  Meagher, Michael

  Sloan, Thomas Henry

  Henderson, J.M.(Aberdeen, W.)

  Menzies, Walter

  Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie

  Henry, Charles S.

  Micklem, Nathaniel

  Soares, Ernest J.

  Herbert, T. Arnold (Wycombe)

  Mond, A.

  Stanger, H. Y.

  Higham, John Sharp

  Money, L. G. Chiozza

  Steadman, W. C.

  Hobart, Sir Robert

  Mooney, J. J.

  Stewart, Halley (Greenock)

  Hobhouse, Charles E. H.

  Morse, L. L.

  Straus, B. S. (Mile End)

  Hodge, John

  Napier, T. B.

  Sullivan, Donal

  Hogan, Michael

  Newnes, Sir George (Swansea)

  Summerbell, T.

  Hooper, A. G.

  Nicholls, George

  Taylor, John W. (Durham)

  Hope, W. Bateman(Somerset, N.)

  Nicholson, Charles N.(Donc'st'r)

  Taylor, Theodore C. (Radclifie)

  Horniman, Emslie John

  Nolan, Joseph

  Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.)

  Hudson, Walter

  Norton, Capt. Cecil William

  Thomas, David Alfred(Merth'r)

  Hyde, Clarendon

  Nuttall, Harry

  Thomasson, Franklin

  Idris, T. H. W.

  O'Brien, Kendal(Tipperary Mid)

  Thompson, J. W. H. (Somerset, E)

  Jackson, R. S.

  O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

  Tomkinson, James

  Jardine, Sir J.

  O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)

  Torrance, Sir A. M.

  Jenkins, J.

  O'Doherty, Philip

  Toulmin, George

  Johnson, John (Gateshead)

  O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S.)

  Vivian, Henry

  Johnson, W. (Nuneaton)

  O'Dowd, John

  Wads worth, J.

  Jones, Leif (Appleby)

  O'Hare, Patrick

  Walton, Sir John L. (Leeds, S.)

  Jowett, F. W.

  O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.)

  Ward, W. Dudley(South'mptn)

  Joyce, Michael

  O'Kelly, James(Roscommon, N.)

  Wardle, George J

  Kekewich, Sir George

  O'Malley, William

  Wason, John Cathcart(Orkney)

  Kelley, George D.

  O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

  Waterlow, D. S.

  Kennedy, Vincent Paul

  Parker, James (Halifax)

  Watt, H. Anderson

  King, Alfred John (Knutsford)

  Partington, Oswald

  Wedgwood, Josiah C.

  Laidlaw, Robert

  Paul, Herbert

  White, George (Norfolk)

  Lamb, Edmund G.(Leominster)

  Pearce, Robert (Staffs. Leek)

  White, Luke (York, E.R.)

  Lambert, George

  Pearce, William (Limehouse)

  White, Patrick (Meath, North)

  Lamont, Norman

  Pickersgill, Edward Hare

  Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

  Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, W.)

  Pirie, Duncan V.

  Whittaker, Sir Thomas Palmer

  Layland-Barratt, Francis

  Power, Patrick Joseph

  Wiles, Thomas

  Lea, Hugh Cecil(St. Pancras, E.)

  Price, C. E. (Edinb'gh, Central)

  Williams, J. (Glamorgan)

  Lever, Levy A.(Essex, Harwich)

  Price, Robert John (Norfolk, E.)

  Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)

  Levy, Maurice

  Priestley, W.E.B.(Bradford, E.)

  Wilson, Henry J. (York, W.R.)

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Radford, G. H.

  Wilson, John (Durham, Mid)

  Lloyd-George, Rt. Hon. David

  Raphael, Herbert H.

  Wilson, P. W. (St. Pancras, S.)

  Lough, Thomas

  Rea, Russell (Gloucester)

  Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)

  Lundon, W.

  Redmond, John E.(Waterford)

  Winfrey, R.

  Lupton, Arnold

  Rees, J. D.

  Wood, T. M'Kinnon

  Luttrell, Hugh Fownes

  Rendall, Attelstan

  Young, Samuel

  Lyell, Charles Henry

  Richards, T.F.(Wolverh'mpt'n)

  Yoxall, James Henry

  Lynch, H. B.

  Richardson, A.

  Macdonald, J.M.(Falkirk B'ghs)

  Rickett, J. Compton

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr. Whiteley and Mr. J. A. Pease.

  Mackarness, Frederic C.

  Roberts, G. H. (Norwich)

  Maclean, Donald

  Robertson, Rt. Hn. E. (Dundee)

  Macpherson, J. T.

  Robertson, Sir G. Scott(Br'df'd)

  MacVeagh, Jeremiah (Down, S.)

  Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside)

  MR. HARMOOD-BANNER MR. HARMOOD-BANNER (Liverpool, Everton) moved to omit from the clause the words "or ask for a ballot or voting paper for the purpose of so voting." His object was to place the measure in the
  142
  same position as regarded the penalty for personation as the old Act. The Amendment brought into prominence one of the principles of the Bill which they had to fight. One of those principles was in

  143
  regard to the process of selection, and the other was in regard to the punishment to be imposed on a voter for contravening the provisions of the Bill. The Amendment, so far as personation was concerned, would place the offence in the same position as an offence under Section 24 of 35 and 36 Vict. chapter 33. Unless the words of the Amendment were accepted, the House should clearly understand that by this Bill they were creating a new offence. He did not know that hon. Members opposite, and hon. Members of the Labour Party and of the Irish Party below the gangway, desired that they should be parties to inventing a new crime. When at an earlier stage of the Bill he brought forward an exactly similar Amendment he was called to order and told that he had not looked into the matter, and that the penalty imposed for asking for a voting paper was exactly the same as that included in the old Act. He hoped that the right hon. Gentleman would now admit that the penalty was entirely different, and that when he gave that reason for preserving the clause he was acting from ignorance or inadvertence. He believed the right hon. Gentleman acted from inadvertence rather than ignorance. If he had simply accepted the clause in the old Act as to the punishment for personation the Bill would have been infinitely simpler, but, instead of doing that, be had piled up clauses and exceptions, and lengthened out what ought to have been a short measure. He ventured to think that no Member of the House would question the right of any man to go and ask for a voting paper; he did not say that he had a right to get it when he asked for it. He thought the right hon. Gentleman should still consider the question of applying the terms of the old Act so as to make it unecessary to have exceptional legislation of the kind now proposed. They had good cause to complain that a new offence had been created.
  Amendment proposed—
  "In page 1, line 6, to leave out the words 'or ask for a ballot or voting paper for the purpose of so voting."—(Mr. Harmood-Banner.)
  Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Bill."
  VISCOUNT TURNOURsaid the retention of the words might inflict great injustice on a perfectly innocent man who applied at a polling place for a voting paper with no intention of committing a crime. The words were not necessary for the enforcement of the principle which the right hon. Gentleman wished to carry out.
  MR. HARCOURTsaid it was difficult to deal with the speech of the noble Lord except to say that no injury would be done by the clause as it stood. The Mover of the Amendment was a more serious observer of the law, and he had drawn a vivid picture of the unfortunate position in which the fraudulent plural voter would be placed. But no injury would be suffered by an innocent man who applied for a ballot paper without the intention of evading the provisions of the Act. He was not creating a new offence by the sub-section under discussion. An attempt to vote in two divisions of a divided borough was already the offence of personation; but even if the application of the offence of personation which he proposed were new, he thought it would be suitable and proper under this Bill. The hon. Member took exactly the same view as he did, viz., that if the Bill became law, he wished that the law should be observed and observed with the least possible friction and trouble. The hon. Gentleman, with his legal knowledge, must admit that the attempt to commit an offence was treated by the law, if not with the same severity, at all events in the same catgeory as the actual commission of the offence. Certainly in this particular case, what it was desired above all to prevent was the attempt to commit the offence. The hon. Member surely did not mean that the plural voter should be encouraged to go in to the polling booth "to try it on" and knowingly ask for a ballot paper, and then be relieved of liability for knowingly applying for a ballot paper with the intention of evading the provisions of the Act? Was he to escape punishment if the presiding officer omitted to do his duty? He was sure that that was not the hon. Gentleman's intention.
  MR. HARMOOD-BANNERsaid the case which he had in mind was that

  145
  of an Innocent man who went into the polling booth just as a single voter would do, and asked for a ballot paper.
  MR. HARCOURTsaid that he could assure the hon. Gentleman that in such a case his Amendment was absolutely un-
  necessary. A man who had not acted with the intention of evading the Act would not be subject to any penalty.
  Question put.
  The House divided:—Ayes, 289; Noes, 38. (Division List No. 448.)

  AYES.

  Abraham, William (Rhondda)

  Cowan, W. H.

  Hodge, John

  Acland, Francis Dyke

  Cox, Harold

  Hogan, Michael,

  Agnew, George William

  Crean, Eugene

  Hooper, A. G.

  Ainsworth, John Stirling

  Cremer, William Randal

  Hope, W. Bateman (Som'rst, N)

  Alden, Percy

  Davies, David (Montgomery Co.)

  Horniman, Emslie John

  Allen, A. Acland (Christchurch)

  Davies, Ellis William (Eifion)

  Hudson, Walter

  Allen, Charles P. (Stroud)

  Davies, Timothy (Fulham)

  Hyde, Clarendon

  Armitage, R.

  Davies, W. Howell (Bristol, S.)

  Idris, T. H. W.

  Armstrong, W. C. Heaton

  Dewar, Arthur (Edinburgh, S.)

  Jackson, R. S.

  Ashton, Thomas Gair

  Dickinson, W.H. (St. Pancras N)

  Jenkins, J.

  Astbury, John Meir

  Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.

  Johnson, John (Gateshead)

  Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth)

  Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

  Johnson, W. (Nuneaton)

  Baker, Joseph A.(Finsbury, E.)

  Donelan, Captain A.

  Jones, Leif (Appleby)

  Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight)

  Duffy, William J.

  Jowett, F. W.

  Barker, John

  Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness)

  Joyce, Michael

  Barlow, John Emmott (Somers't)

  Dunn, A. Edward (Camborne)

  Kekewich, Sir George

  Barlow, Percy (Bedford)

  Dunne, Major E. Martin (Wals')

  Kelley, George D.

  Barnard, E. B.

  Edwards, Enoch (Hanley)

  Kennedy, Vincent Paul

  Barnes, G. N.

  Edwards, Frank (Radnor)

  King, Alfred John (Knutsford)

  Barran, Rowland Hirst

  Elibank, Master of

  Laidlaw, Robert

  Beale, W. P.

  Ellis, Rt. Hon. John Edward

  Lamb, Edmund G. (Leominster)

  Beaumont, Hn. W. C. B. (H'xh'm)

  Esmonde, Sir Thomas

  Lambert, George

  Beck, A. Cecil

  Essex, R. W.

  Lamont, Norman

  Bellairs, Carlyon

  Evans, Samuel T.

  Law, Hugh A. (Donega, W.)

  Benn, W.(T'w'r' H'ml'ts, S. Geo)

  Eve, Harry Trelawney

  Layland-Barratt, Francis

  Berridge, T. H. D.

  Everett, R. Lacey

  Lea, Hugh Cecil (St. Pancras, E.)

  Bethell, Sir J.H(Essex, R'mf'rd)

  Faber, G. H. (Boston)

  Lever, A Levy (Essex, Harwich)

  Bethell, T. R. (Essex, Maldon)

  Fenwick, Charles)

  Lever, W. H (Cheshire, Wirral)

  Billson, Alfred

  Ferens, T. R.

  Levy, Maurice

  Black, Arthur W. (Bedfordshire)

  Findlay, Alexander

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Boland, John

  Flynn, James Christopher

  Lloyd-George, Rt. Hon. David

  Boulton, A. C. F. (Ramsoy)

  Fuller, John Michael F.

  Lough, Thomas

  Bowerman, C. W.

  Fullerton, Hugh

  Lundon, W.

  Brace, William

  Gibb, James (Harrow)

  Lupton, Arnold

  Bramsdon, T. A.

  Gill, A. H.

  Luttrell, Hugh Fownes

  Branch, James

  Ginnell, L.

  Lyell, Charles Henry

  Brigg, John

  Glendinning, R. G.

  Lynch, H. B.

  Bright, J. A.

  Goddard, Daniel Ford

  Macdonald, J. M(Falkirk B'rghs)

  Brocklehurst, W. B.

  Gooch, George Peabody

  Mackarness, Frederic C

  Brooke, Stopford

  Greenwood, G. (Peterborough)

  Maclean, Donald

  Brunner, J. F. L. (Lancs., Leigh)

  Gulland, John W.

  Macpherson, J. T.

  Brunner, Rt. Hn. Sir J.T. (Ches.)

  Gurdon, Sir W. Bramptor

  MacVeagh, Jeremiah (Down, S.)

  Buckmaster, Stanley O.

  Hall, Frederick

  MacVeigh, Charles (Donegal, E.)

  Burke, E. Haviland-

  Halpin, J.

  M'Callum, John M.

  Burns, Rt. Hon. John

  Harcourt, Right Hon. Lewis

  M'Crae, George

  Burnyeat, W. J. D.

  Hardie, J. Keir (Merthyr T'dv'l)

  M'Hugh, Patrick A.

  Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas

  Hardy, George A. (Suffolk)

  M'Kean, John

  Byles, William Pollard

  Hart-Davies, T.

  M'Kenna, Reginald

  Cairns, Thomas

  Haslam, James (Derbyshire)

  M'Killop, W.

  Chance, Frederick William

  Haworth, Arthur A.

  M'Laren, Sir C. B. (Leicester)

  Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R.

  Haydea, John Patrick

  M'Laren, H. D. (Stafford, W.)

  Clarke, C. Goddard

  Helme, Norval Watson

  M'Micking, Major G.

  Cleland, J. W.

  Hemmerde, Edward George

  Mallet, Charles E.

  Clough, William

  Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

  Manfield, Harry (Northants)

  Collins, Stephen (Lambeth)

  Henderson, J. M. (Aberdeen. W.)

  Mansfield, H. Rendall (Lincoln)

  Collins, Sir Wm. J.(S. Pancras W)

  Henry, Charles S.

  Markham, Arthur Basil

  Condon, Thomas Joseph

  Herbert, T. Arnold (Wycombe)

  Marks, G. Croydon (Launceston)

  Corbett, CH (Sussex, E. Gr'ns'd)

  Higham, John Sharp

  Marnham, F. J.

  Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.

  Hobart, Sir Robert

  Mason, A. E. W. (Coventry)

  Cotton, Sir H. J. S.

  Hobhouse, Charles E. H.

  Meagher, Michael

  Menzies, Walter

  Rees, J. D.

  Thomasson, Franklin

  Micklem, Nathaniel

  Rendall, Athelstan

  Thompson, J. W. H (Somerset, E)

  Mond, A.

  Richards, T. F. (Wolverh'mptn)

  Tillett, Louis John

  Money, L. G. Chiozza

  Richardson, A.

  Tomkinson, James

  Mooney, J. J.

  Rickett, J. Compton

  Torrance, Sir A. M.

  Morse, L. L.

  Ridsdale, E. A.

  Toulmin, George

  Napier, T. B.

  Roberts, G. H. (Norwich)

  Vivian, Henry

  Newnes, Sir George (Swansea)

  Robertson, Rt. Hn. E. (Dundee)

  Wadsworth, J.

  Nicholls, George

  Robertson, Sir G Scott (Bradf'rd)

  Walters, John Tudor

  Nicholson, Charles N(Doncaster)

  Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside)

  Walton, Sir John L. (Leeds. S.)

  Nolan, Joseph

  Robinson, S.

  Ward, W. Dudley(Southampton)

  Norton, Capt. Cecil William

  Rogers, F. E. Newman

  Wardle, George J.

  Nuttall, Harry

  Rose, Charles Day

  Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney)

  O'Brien, Kendal (Tipperary Mid)

  Rowlands, J.

  Waterlow, D. S.

  O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

  Runciman, Walter

  Watt, H. Anderson

  O'Doherty, Philip

  Rutherford, V. H. (Brentford)

  Wedgwood, Josiah C.

  O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S.)

  Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)

  White, George (Norfolk)

  O'Dowd, John

  Scott, A. H. (Ashton under Lyne)

  White, Luke (York, E. R.)

  O'Hare, Patrick

  Sears, J. E.

  White, Patrick (Meath, North)

  O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.)

  Seaverns, J. H.

  Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

  O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N)

  Seddon, J.

  Whittaker, Sir Thomas Palmer

  O'Malley, William

  Shackleton, David James

  Wiles, Thomas

  O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

  Shaw, Rt. Hn. T. (Hawick, B.)

  Williams, J. (Glamorgan)

  Parker, James (Halifax)

  Shipman, Dr. John G.

  Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)

  Partington, Oswald

  Silcock, Thomas Ball

  Wilson, Henry J. (York, W.R.)

  Paul, Herbert

  Sloan, Thomas Henry

  Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)

  Pearce, Robert (Staffs. Leek)

  Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie

  Wilson, J. H.. (Middlesbrough)

  Pearce, William (Limehouse)

  Soares, Ernest J.

  Wilson, P. W. (St. Pancras, S.)

  Pickersgill, Edward Hare

  Stanger, H. Y.

  Wilson, W. T. (Westthoughton)

  Pirie, Duncan V.

  Steadman, W. C.

  Winfrey, R.

  Power, Patrick Joseph

  Stewart, Halley (Greenock)

  Wood, T. M'Kinnon

  Price, C. E(Edinburgh, Central)

  Straus, B. S. (Mile End)

  Young, Samuel

  Price, Robert John (Norfolk, E)

  Sullivan, Donal

  Yoxall, James Henry

  Priestley, W.E.B. (Bradford, E.)

  Summerbell, T.

  Radford, G. H.

  Taylor, John W. (Durham)

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr. Whiteley and Mr. J. A. Pease.

  Raphael, Herbert H.

  Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)

  Rea, Russell (Gloucester)

  Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.)

  Redmond, John E. (Waterford)

  Thomas, David Alfred(Merthyr)

  NOES.

  Acland-Hood, Rt. Hn. Sir Alex F

  Duncan, Robert (Lanark Govan)

  Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel

  Arkwright, John Stanhope

  Fell, Arthur

  Rutherford, John (Lancashire)

  Ashley, W. W.

  Finch, Rt. Hon. George H.

  Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool)

  Balcarres, Lord

  Fletcher, J. S.

  Starkey, John R.

  Banbury, Sir Frederick George

  Hamilton, Marquess of

  Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

  Beach, Hn. Michael Hugh Hicks

  Hervey, P. W. F.(Bury SEdm'ds)

  Thomson, W. Mitchell- (Lanark)

  Bowles, G. Stewart

  Hills, J. W.

  Tuke, Sir John Batty

  Carlile, E. Hildred

  Houston, Robert Paterson

  Tumour, Viscount

  Cave, George

  Kennaway, Rt. Hon. Sir John H.

  Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid.)

  Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

  Kimber, Sir Henry

  Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.)

  Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)

  Lane-Fox, G. R.

  Dixon, Sir Daniel

  Lockwood, Rt. Hn. Lt.-Col, A.R.

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr. Harmood-Banner and Mr. Courthope.

  Doughty, Sir George

  Pease, Herbert Pike(Darlington)

  Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

  Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

  SIR FREDERICK BANBURY SIR FREDERICK BANBURY moved an Amendment to provide that the Bill should not come into operation until after the year 1909. He said the object of his Amendment was to post- pone the evil day, and there were many Precedents for moving such a proposal. Before the year 1909 it was to be hoped that there would be a general election, and if his Amendment were accepted they would be following a constitutional practice by not making any alteration in the franchise until after
  148
  a general election. That practice had been followed in the case of every alteration of the franchise from time immemorial. It was impossible to predict when a general election would come, but by inserting the words 1909 they would go far to meet the case and make the Bill in some small degree follow the precedent of all other franchise Bills. There were other reasons why he moved the Amendment, but he thought that alone was a sufficient ground for it. One of the other reasons was

  149
  that time was required before the Bill came into operation for it to be understood. It would be a considerable amount of time before the plural voters were seized of the fact that they would have to do certain things. His Amendment did not touch the principle of the Bill. Meanwhile time would be given for the officials to draw up proper rules and regulations, and for the disfranchised plural voters to pull themselves together and find out what they had to do to avoid two years imprisonment with hard labour. On these grounds he hoped the Government would accept the Amendment.
  MR. HICKS BEACHseconded, and said the Amendment was a very simple one and was not in any way contradictory to the principle of the Bill. If the Government had thought the Bill was a workable measure they would not have inserted the date of 1907; they would have put in the year 1906.
  MR. HARCOURTsaid he had brought the Bill into operation at the earliest possible date.
  MR. HICKS BEACHsaid, if the right hon. Gentleman stated that, his argument fell to the ground, but he urged that there was no mandate from the country in regard to the Bill. He thought the Government would justify themselves and their supporters if they went to the country on this particular Bill.
  MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKERdid not see that the remarks of the hon. Gentleman arose out of the question.
  MR. HICKS BEACHsaid that if the Deputy-Speaker ruled him out of order he would not pursue the subject further. It seemed to him that the Bill would be a somewhat difficult one to work. That it was not a simple measure was shown by the fact that it started as one of sixty lines and when finished would run to 110 lines. It would take considerable time for the electors of this country to decipher its meaning, and the clerks of the county councils and the officials ought to have as long a time as possible to study its clauses. He did not think that the Government could honestly refuse to accept the Amendment, and if they did it would prove that they were
  150
  afraid of going to the country on this particular measure.
  Amendment proposed to the Bill—
  "In page 1, line 8, to leave out the word 'seven' and to insert the word 'nine.'"—(Sir Frederick Banbury.)
  Question proposed. "That the word 'seven' stand part of the Bill."
  MR. HARCOURTsaid the hon. Baronet seemed to wish to postpone the evil day on which the Bill would come into force, but if the Bill was a good one it ought to come into force at once. If it was a had one it ought not to come into force even in 1909; in fact it ought never to come into force at all. The hon. Baronet had entered into interesting speculations as to when the election would come, and when he himself was on the benches opposite he had entered into those speculations. It was always interesting to speculate upon the time when well deserved vengeance would descend upon the heads of hon. Members who were opposed to them. If hon. Members thought that more time was necessary to bring the Bill into operation he thought they were mistaken. There was no difficulty in explaining the provisions of the Bill to the officials who would have to administer it. The hon. Baronet had said, however, that there would be a difficulty in bringing it home to the comprehension of the elector. But that was a conclusive argument for bringing the Bill into operation at once in order to accustom the hon. Baronet and his friends in the City of London to its working and so that they might understand it.
  MR. COURTHOPEsaid he did not dwell so much on the difficulty so far as the officials were concerned. They would arrange for their duties in a very short time. But there was a class who would require time and who were deserving of consideration, namely, the Party registration agents on both sides. All who had had any personal experience of registration work admitted that this would be a complicated, difficult, and expensive measure. The Party agents would have to set up machinery in order to secure, if possible, the selection by pluralists, not only in time for the 5th September, but in the particular division where votes were most wanted. That would apply

  151
  to both Parties. It would take time; it would be expensive and would require the raising of funds, and he did not think any Party would be able to put the Party agents in a position to prepare for this Bill, or to act as he supposed it would he their duty, unless reasonable time was given. If the Act came into form and received the Royal assent before the end of this year, he did not think they would be able to get the machinery on either side properly working in time to get the selection made before September 5th next, and it was for that reason that he supported the Amendment.
  MR. CAVEdid not suppose there was anybody in the country or in the House who did not think that the machinery of this Bill was bad. Apart from that question, there were Members on both sides of the House who would agree that some change in the present system was desirable, and that at all events, with regard to the ownership vote, some limitation in the number of votes might be fairly demanded. But that change, if it
  came, ought to come as part of a general redistribution of voting power. The reason why this Amendment was important was that if the operation of the Bill was postponed for two years it would enable the whole question of redistribution to be considered and dealt with before this Bill came into effect. Some Members only represented 2,000 or 3,000 voters, others represented 20,000. The average number represented by hon. Members on the Ministerial side of the House was under 7,000, whilst those on the Opposition side represented on the average upwards of 15,000. That was certainly not a fair distribution, and he submitted that if the right hon. Gentleman was going to remedy one anomaly he ought also to attempt to remedy the other and greater anomalies of our present system. It was on these grounds that he supported the Amendment.
  Question put.
  The House divided:—Ayes, 297; Noes, 45. (Division List, No. 449.)

  AYES.

  Acland, Francis Dyke

  Brocklehurst, W. B.

  Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

  Agnew, George William

  Brooke, Stopford

  Donelan, Captain

  Ainsworth, John Stirling

  Brunner, J.F.L. (Lancs., Leigh)

  Duffy, William J.

  Alden, Percy

  Brunner, Rt. Hn. Sir J. T(Cheshire)

  Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness)

  Allen, A. Acland (Christchurch)

  Buckmaster, Stanley O.

  Dunn, A- Edward (Camborne)

  Allen, Charles P. (Stroud)

  Burke, E. Haviland

  Dunne, Major E. Martin (Walsall)

  Armstrong, W. C. Heaton

  Burns, Rt. Hon. John

  Edwards, Enoch (Hanley)

  Ashton, Thomas Gair

  Burnyeat, W. J. D.

  Edwards, Frank (Radnor)

  Astbury, John Meir

  Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas

  Elibank, Master of

  Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth)

  Byles, William Pollard

  Ellis, Rt. Hon. John Edward

  Baker, Joseph A.(Finsbury, E.)

  Cairns, Thomas

  Esmonde, Sir Thomas

  Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight)

  Chance, Frederick William

  Essex, R. W.

  Barker, John

  Channing, Sir Francis Allston

  Eve, Harry Trelawney

  Barlow, John Emmott (Somerst)

  Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R.

  Everett, R. Lacey

  Barlow, Percy (Bedford)

  Clarke, C. Goddard

  Faber, G. H. (Boston)

  Barnard, E. B.

  Cleland, J. W.

  Fenwick, Charles

  Barnes, G. N.

  Clough, William

  Ferens, T. R.

  Barran, Rowland Hirst

  Collins, Stephen (Lambeth)

  Fiennes, Hon. Eustace

  Beale, W. P.

  Collins, Sir Wm. J.(S. Pancras, W.)

  Findlay, Alexander

  Beaumont, Hn. W. C. B(Hexh'm)

  Condon, Thomas Joseph

  Flynn, James Christopher

  Beck, A. Cecil

  Corbett, CH (Sussex, E Grinst'd)

  Foster, Rt. Hon. Sir Walter

  Bellairs, Carlyon

  Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.

  Fuller, John Michael F.

  Benn, W.(Tw'r Haml'ts, S. Geo.)

  Cotton, Sir H. J. S.

  Fullerton, High

  Berridge, T. H. D.

  Cowan, W. H.

  Gibb, James (Harrow)

  Bethell, Sir J. H.(Essex, Romf'rd)

  Cox, Harold

  Gill, A. H.

  Bethell, T. R. (Essex, Maldon)

  Crean, Eugene

  Ginnell, L.

  Billson, Alfred

  Cremer, William Randal

  Glendinning, R. G.

  Black, Arthur W.(Bedfordshire)

  Crombie, John William

  Goddard, Daniel Ford

  Boland, John

  Crossley, William J.

  Gooch, George Peabody

  Boulton, A. C. F. (Ramsey)

  Davies, David (Montgomery Co.)

  Greenwood, G. (Peterborough)

  Bowerman, C. W.

  Davies, Ellis William (Eifion)

  Gulland, John W.

  Brace, William

  Davies, Timothy (Fulham)

  Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

  Bramsdon, T. A.

  Davies, W, Howell (Bristol, S.)

  Hall, Frederick

  Branch, James

  Dewar, Arthur (Edinburgh, S.)

  Halpin, J.

  Brigg, John

  Dickinson, W. H.(St. Pancras, N)

  Harcourt, Right Hon. Lewis

  Bright, J. A.

  Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.

  Hardie, J. Keir (Merthyr Tydvil)

  Hardy, George A. (Suffolk)

  M'Laren, H. D. (Stafford, W.)

  Robson, Sir William Snowdon

  Hart-Davies, T.

  M'Micking, Major G.

  Rogers, P. E. Newman

  Haslam, James (Derbyshire)

  Mallet, Charles E.

  Rose, Charles Day

  Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth)

  Manfield, Harry (Northants)

  Rowlands, J.

  Haworth, Arthur A.

  Mansfield, H. Rondall (Lincoln)

  Runciman, Walter

  Hayden, John Patrick

  Markham, Arthur Basil

  Rutherford, V. H. (Brentford)

  Helme, Norval Watson

  Marks, G. Croydon (Launceston)

  Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)

  Hemmerde, Edward George

  Marnham, F. J.

  Scott, A. H (Ashton under Lyne)

  Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

  Massie, J.

  Sears, J. E

  Henderson, J. M.(Aberdeen, W.)

  Meagher, Michael

  Seaverns, J. H.

  Henry, Charles S.

  Menzies, Walter

  Seddon, J.

  Herbert, Col. Ivor (Mon., S.)

  Micklem, Nathaniel

  Shackleton, David James

  Herbert, T. Arnold (Wycombe)

  Mond, A.

  Shaw, Rt. Hn. T. (Hawick, B.)

  Higham, John Sharp

  Money, L. G. Chiozza

  Shipman, Dr. John G.

  Hobart, Sir Robert

  Money, J. J.

  Silcock, Thomas Ball

  Hobhouse, Charles E. H.

  Morgan, G. Hay (Cornwall)

  Simon, John Allsebrook

  Hodge, John

  Napier, T. B.

  Sloan, Thomas Henry

  Hogan, Michael

  Newnes, Sir George (Swansea)

  Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie

  Hooper, A. G.

  Nicholls, George

  Soares, Ernest J.

  Hope, W. Bateman (Somerset, N)

  Nicholson, Charles N(Doncaster)

  Stanger, H. Y.

  Horniman, Emslie John

  Nolan, Joseph

  Steadman, W. C.

  Hudson, Walter

  Norton, Capt. Cecil William

  Stewart, Halley (Greenock)

  Hyde, Clarendon

  Nuttall, Harry

  Straus, B. S. (Mile End)

  Idris, T. H. W.

  O'Brien, Kendal(Tipperary Mid)

  Sullivan, Donal

  Jackson, R. S.

  O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

  Summerbell, T.

  Jenkins, J.

  O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)

  Taylor, John W. (Durham)

  Johnson, John (Gateshead)

  O'Doherty, Philip

  Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)

  Johnson, W. (Nuneaton)

  O'Donnell, C. J. (Walworth)

  Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.)

  Jones, Leif (Appleby)

  O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S.)

  Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr)

  Jowett, F. W.

  O'Dowd, John

  Thomasson, Franklin

  Joyce, Michael

  O'Hare, Patrick

  Thompson, J. W. H(Somerset, E.)

  Kekewich, Sir George

  O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.)

  Tomkinson, James

  Kelley, George D.

  O'Kelly, James(Roscommon)

  Torrance, Sir A. M.

  Kennedy, Vincent Paul

  O'Malley, William

  Toulmin, George

  King, Alfred John (Knutsford)

  O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

  Trevelyan, Charles Philips

  Laidlaw, Robert

  Parker, James (Halifax)

  Vivian, Henry

  Lambert, George

  Partington, Oswald

  Wadsworth, J.

  Lamont, Norman

  Paul, Herbert

  Walters, John Tudor

  Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, W.)

  Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek)

  Walton, Sir John L. (Leeds, S.)

  Layland-Barratt, Francis

  Pearce, William (Limehouse)

  Ward, W. Dudley (Southampt'n)

  Lea, Hugh Cecil(St. Pancras, E.)

  Pearson, W. H. M.(Suffolk, Eye)

  Wardle, George J.

  Lever, A. Levy (Essex, Harwich)

  Philipps, Owen C. (Pembroke)

  Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney)

  Lever, W.H. (Cheshire, Wirral)

  Pickersgill, Edward Hare

  Waterlow, D. S.

  Levy, Maurice.

  Pirie, Duncan V.

  Watt, H. Anderson

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Power, Patrick Joseph

  Wedgwood, Josiah C.

  Lough, Thomas

  Price, C. E.(Edinburgh, Central)

  White, George (Norfolk)

  Lundon, W.

  Price, Robert John (Norfolk, E.)

  White, Luke (York, E.R.)

  Lupton, Arnold

  Priestley, W. E. B.(Bradford, E.)

  White, Patrick (Meath, North)

  Luttrell, Hugh Fownes

  Radford, G. H.

  Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

  Lyell, Charles Henry

  Raphael, Herbert H.

  Whittaker, Sir Thomas Palmer

  Lynch, H. B.

  Rea, Russell (Gloucester)

  Wiles, Thomas

  Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk B'ghs)

  Redmond, John E. (Waterford)

  Williams, J. (Glamorgan)

  Mackarness, Frederic C.

  Rees, J. D.

  Williams Osmond (Merioneth)

  Maclean, Donald

  Rendall, Athelstan

  Wilson, Henry J. (York, W.R.)

  Macpherson, J. T.

  Renton, Major Leslie

  Wilson, John (Durham, Mid)

  MacVeagh, Jeremiah (Down, S.)

  Richards, T. F. (Wolverh'mpton)

  Wilson, J. H. (Middlesbrough)

  MacVeigh, Charles (Donegal, E.)

  Richardson, A.

  Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)

  M'Callum, John M.

  Rickett, J. Compton

  Winfrey, R.

  M'Crae, George

  Ridsdale, E. A.

  Young, Samuel

  M'Hugh, Patrick A.

  Roberts, G. H. (Norwich)

  Yoxall, James Henry

  M'Kean, John

  Robertson, Rt. Hn. E. (Dundee)

  M'Kenna, Reginald

  Robertson, Sir G. Scott(Bradford)

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr. Whiteley and Mr. J. A. Pease.

  M'Killop, W.

  Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside)

  M'Laren, Sir C. B. (Leicester)

  Robinson, S.

  NOES.

  Abraham, William (Rhondda)

  Banner, John S. Harmood-

  Cave, George

  Acland-Hood, Rt. Hn. Sir Alex. F

  Bowles, G. Stewart

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Arkwright, John Stanhope

  Butcher, Samuel Henry

  Cecil, Lord R.(Marylebone, E.)

  Ashley, W. W.

  Carlile, E. Hildred

  Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J.A.(Worc.)

  Balcarres, Lord

  Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

  Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

  154

  155

  Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)

  Hervey, F. W. F. (Bury S. Edm'ds)

  Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

  Courthope, G. Loyd

  Hills, J. W.

  Thomson, W. Mitchell-(Lanark)

  Craig, Captain James (Down, E.)

  Houston, Robert Paterson

  Tuke, Sir John Batty

  Craik, Sir Henry

  Kennaway, Rt. Hon. Sir John H.

  Turnour, Viscount

  Dixon, Sir Daniel

  Lane-Fox; G. R.

  Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid.)

  Doughty, Sir George

  Magnus, Sir Philip

  Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.)

  Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

  Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington)

  Duncan, Robert (Lanark, Govan)

  Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Sir

  Fell, Arthur

  Rutherford, John (Lancashire)

  Frederick Banbury and Mr. Hicks Beach.

  Finch, Rt. Hon. George H.

  Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool)

  Fletcher, J. S.

  Smith, F. E. (Liverpool, Walton)

  Hamilton, Marquess of

  Starkey John R.

  MR. COURTHOPE MR. COURTHOPE moved to delete the words providing that the selection of his constituency by the plural voter should be made "for the year in the manner provided by this Act." He said the Amendment raised the whole question of the machinery of the Bill. The right hon. Gentleman had given way on certain points of machinery, but not on points of principle. This was another point of machinery on which he hoped the right hon. Gentleman would see his way to make some concession. They must all— even the most sanguine supporters of the Bill—feel a little doubtful whether the measure would be easily workable. Hon. Members on both sides of the House who had most experience in electioneering matters had criticised the machinery and methods proposed somewhat severely. He could not help thinking that the right hon. Gentleman in charge of the Bill would have been well advised if he had paid rather more heed to those criticisms, which came from all parts of the House, and set himself to try and make the machinery more workable. It seemed to him that the present machinery was a direct invitation to fraud where an elector had failed to select a constituency. Where there was no mark in the register very great difficulty would occur in the detection of fraud, and anyone who was dishonest enough to make a false declaration could do so with almost perfect impunity under the machinery set up. It would be almost impossible, at any rate extremely difficult, to trace an offence or to detect an offence at all. On the other hand, those who were too honest to make these false statements might in certain instances lose their votes altogether, if through inadvertence or some other cause they failed to make their selection. It came to this. Many dishonest pluralists would exercise their votes, and many truthful and honest pluralists would exercise none of their votes. That was a state of things which
  156
  he thought the whole House would agree was eminently undesirable. Another important point arose in connection with the question of machinery in the case of scrutiny. The question of machinery had already been referred to this evening, and the right hon. Gentleman had pointed out that by the safeguards he had provided there would be no inducement to the candidates to demand a scrutiny, but on the other hand there would be very much greater difficulty in carrying it out. That was important. A scrutiny in some cases must be necessary, and it would be an extremely difficult matter under the machinery of this Bill to put through a scrutiny successfully and with satisfaction. Then there was the question of the Party agents. They would not only be required to send a polling card and so on to an out-voter and pluralist inviting him to come and poll on a particular day, perhaps saying that a conveyance would meet certain trains, but they would have, in addition, to approach him some time during the middle of each year, in order to secure, if possible, that he should select the constituency they represented as his voting constituency. That would be a matter of great difficulty and of expense, which would be felt by all Parties and which to his mind was giving a distinct advantage to those Parties or candidates who were so wealthy that they could spend large sums of money in registration work and in getting in touch with their out-voters. A man of moderate or small means would thus be at a disadvantage. Again, there would be a great opening under this Bill for unscrupulous agents. He hoped the majority of agents were most careful and did not come within the category of unscrupulous, but there were certainly some unscrupulous agents, and they would have grand opportunities of exercising their wiles by the machinery which this Bill set up.

  157
  There would be very great difficulty in detecting unscrupulous work and fraud. It would be an advantage to the Party agents to get people on the other side put on the register, whereas now it was to their advantage to keep them off, and it would be very difficult indeed to detect such cases, and to make the Party agents liable to the penalties imposed by the Bill. In every one of these instances there was premium a put on dishonesty. Then there was the question of testing the accuracy of claims and of deciding whether objections were necessary. That was a very costly proceeding. Very often it was not carried out, but under this Bill it would be absolutely essential. If one Party had not the means to carry out a careful examination of claims and to make objections where necessary, the other Party could do them great harm by putting in an enormous number of claims which they could not substantiate and which they knew their opponents would be unable to oppose. Again he must quote the Member for the Forest of Dean in corroboration of what he said as to the enormous cost of thoroughly examining an opponent's claims and of setting up objections to them. There again there was a premium put on dishonesty. Why was this extraordinary machinery set up? Why was it not sufficient for the purpose of the Government that they should simply say that a man should not vote twice? The only conclusion which one could come to—and he came to it with reluctance—was that the Government thought the majority of pluralists supported the Party of which he was a member, and that by putting disabilities upon them some Party advantage might be gained. He could not help thinking that in many constituencies the right hon. Gentleman and his colleagues would find they had made a mistake. Perhaps, however, the Government were prepared to risk that. Possibly they thought the country wanted a Bill of this kind, and that the people would overlook the ludicrous machinery set up by it. If the Government wished to appear as sensible, intelligent legislators they would really have to adopt some more workable method than that which this Bill set up. He knew it was of no use appealing to them on these grounds. They were deaf to all entreaty. But he did appeal to the House on be-
  158
  half of honesty in our registration and at our elections to accept the Amendment, the effect of which would be to revise the whole machinery of this ridiculous selection set up by the Bill.
  CAPTAIN CRAIG, in seconding, said there appeared to be one rather important matter which his hon. friend had overlooked, and that was the case of a man who had his name on two registers practically for life. He considered that such a person should have the opportunity of declaring once and for all his intention to exercise the franchise in a particular constituency so long as he was a plural voter, instead of having each year to trust to the rate collector or Party agent to see that his name was not removed from the register. It was very hard that the voter with one qualification should remain on the register while another class of voters just as innocuous, the man with dual qualifications, should have year by year to choose in which constituency he should vote. He was quite sure that the Amendment would more nearly approximate to the wishes of the Minister in charge of the Bill than the Bill itself, which left so much to the whim of the dual voter. As the right hon. Gentleman was aware, the various political agents though out the country would be watching very closely where dual voters were being indicated on the various registers. A special effort would be made in constituencies where Members were at the present time returned by sixteen or twenty votes, or even by a hundred, and it would be very expensive to have the whole Party machinery at work annually. The necessity of choosing annually would, he thought, involve as grave an evil as those pointed out by his hon. friend. They were legislating, not only for those who would perhaps indulge in sharp practices, but also for the ordinary law-abiding elector, who would much prefer to be able to make a permanent choice of some one constituency. A more important point, perhaps, was the unfortunate wording of the clause by which penalties were imposed upon quite innocent persons. He feared the effect would be that the very persons the Government wished to penalise would go free, while the person who acted mistakenly but in all honesty would lay himself open to a series of severe

  159
  penalties. He trusted that though somewhat late in the day the right hon. Gentleman would recognise the importance of the Amendment and give it his careful attention.
  Amendment proposed to the Bill—
  "In page 1, line 10, to leave out the words 'for the year in the manner provided by this Act.'"—(Mr. Courthope.)
  Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Bill."
  MR. HARCOURTsaid these words, if left out, would omit the whole method of selection provided under the Bill. He resented the charge that the Government had brought in this Bill partly with the object of injuring their political opponents. It had been said that the abandonment of an important part of the machinery and methods of the Bill had been rendered necessary by the ludicrous provisions inserted during the Report stage. All he had to say in reply to that was that those "ludicrous" provisions were concessions made at the suggestion of hon. Members opposite. Selection had always been coupled with the principle enunciated in the Bill, and he was not going to change machinery which the Government had deliberately adopted.
  VISCOUNT TURNOURsaid he rose with some diffidence as the right hon. Gentleman was kind enough to say earlier in the evening that he had not been a serious student of the Bill. If he had not grasped all the flaws of the Bill or fathomed all its various ambiguities it was because the right hon. Gentleman was such an indifferent exponent of his own measure. [MINISTERIAL cries of "Oh, oh!"] He had said that if the Amendment was adopted it would injure the whole principle of the Bill. It was the whole principle of the Bill that hon. Gentlemen on the Opposition side of the House were anxious to injure, because they regarded it as most unjust, and if adopted it would not do any good to the country. The right hon. Gentleman had also referred to the Amendment as affecting the machinery of the Bill. All he could say was that it was a very important Amendment if it
  160
  affected both the principle and machinery of the Bill. Both the machinery and the principle of the Bill were bad, and he hoped the Government would adopt the Amendment.
  MR. T. L. CORBETTsaid he very much regretted the change of tone which had come over the right hon. Gentleman's speeches. He had until now met them with the utmost courtesy and fairness, but within the last half hour—he supposed because the closure was going to fall shortly—he had not refrained from throwing across the floor of the House a taunt that the agents employed by the Conservative and Unionist Party were different from the agents employed by the Liberal Party.
  MR. HARCOURT: I said absolutely nothing of the sort. Nothing was further from my thought and intention. [Cries of "withdraw."]
  MR. T. L. CORBETTsaid he was very glad indeed that he had obtained that disclaimer, because hon. Members about him believed that that taunt was made. The object of this Amendment was to remove from the clause particular words which he believed would disgust people who had any stake in the country from taking part in the affairs of the nation in future. They had had the examples of America and Australia referred to in the debate, where men of position and education, and men having a stake in the country, had absolutely withdrawn from any part in politics. The words now proposed to be left out were simply meant to harass them, and if they were omitted it would greatly conduce to the simple working of the Bill.
  MR. AUSTEN CHAMBELAINsaid there was little time now remaining for discussion. His hon. friend had moved this Amendment for the purpose of registering perhaps the last protest they would have an opportunity of registering, against the whole machinery by which effect was to be given to the principle that no man should vote more than once. In the course of the debate yesterday he asked how many ordinary voters would obtain their vote if it depended on personal action on their part to secure that their names were

  161
  put on the register. [An HON. MEMBER: What about ledgers?] He was aware of the case of lodgers. The hon. Member for Barnard Castle had expressed the opinion that not one voter in ten would secure his vote if he had imposed on him the personal exertion of looking after it at some period in advance of the time when the register came into force. The Government by the machinery of this Bill were putting on every man who had the misfortune to have two or more qualifications a disability which would have the effect of disfranchising him. For the purpose of his argument he was willing to accept in the fullest degree the statement that it was simply the intention of the Government that no man should be permitted to vote more than once. Was it reasonable, or fair, or just that they should put in the path of a man who had more than one qualification, disabilities
  and obstacles which, they carefully removed from the path of a man who had only one? There were thirty or more Amendments on the Paper in the name of the Government, and these would have to be decided upon under the guillotine. He recognised that they were in the main either drafting Amendments or framed to meet, as far as the Government saw fit, objections taken to their original proposals. They were, in his opinion, inadequate in several particulars. Recognising, how-ever, the spirit in which they had been put down he would advise his hon. friends to accept the major portion of them without putting the House to the trouble of repeated divisions.
  Question put.
  The House divided:—Ayes 340; Noes 71. (Division List No. 450.)

  AYES.

  Abraham, William (Rhondda)

  Bright, J. A.

  Davies, Timothy (Fulham)

  Acland, Francis Dyke

  Brocklehurst, W. B.

  Davies, W. Howell (Bristol, S.)

  Agnew, George William

  Brooke, Stopford

  Dewar, Arthur (Edinburgn, S.)

  Ainsworth, John Stirling

  Brunner, J.F.L. (Lancs., Leigh)

  Dickinson, W.H. (St. Pancras N)

  Alden, Percy

  Brunner, Rt. Hn. Sir J. T. Ches.

  Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.

  Allen, A. Acland (Christchurch)

  Bryce, Rt. Hon. James (Aber'n)

  Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

  Allen, Charles I'. (Stroud)

  Bryce, J. A. (Inverness Burghs

  Dillon, John

  Armitage, R.

  Buckmaster, Stanley O.

  Donelan, Captain, A.

  Armstrong, W. C. Heaton

  Burke, E. Haviland

  Duffy, William J.

  Asbton, Thomas Gair

  Burns, Rt. Hon. John

  Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness

  Asquith, Rt. Hn. Herbert Henry

  Burnyeat, W. J. D.

  Dunn, A. Edward (Camborne)

  Astbury, John Meir

  Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas

  Dunne, Major E. Martin (Wals'l)

  Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth)

  Byles, William Pollard

  Edwards, Clement (Denbigh)

  Baker, Joseph A. (Finsbury, E.)

  Cams, Thomas

  Edwards, Enoch (Hanley)

  Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight)

  Carr-Gomm, H. W.

  Edwards, Frank (Radnor)

  Barker, John

  Chance, Frederick William

  Elibank, Master of

  Barlow John Emmott (S'm'rs't)

  Channing, Sir Francis Allston

  Ellis, Rt. Hon. John Edward

  Barlow, Percy (Bedford)

  Cheetham, John Frederick

  Esmonde, Sir Thomas

  Barnard, E. B.

  Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R.

  Essex, R. W.

  Barnes, G. N.

  Clarke, C. Goddard

  Evans, Samuel T.

  Barran, Rowland Hirst

  Cleland, J. W.

  Eve, Harry Trelawney

  Beale, W. P.

  Clough, William

  Everett, R. Lacey

  Beauchamp, E.

  Collins, Stephen (Lambeth)

  Faber, G. H. (Boston)

  Beaumont, Hn. W. C. B. (H'xh'm)

  Collins, Sir Wm, J. (S. Pancras, W)

  Fenwick, Charles

  Beck, A. Cecil

  Condon, Thomas Joseph

  Ferens, T. R.

  Bellairs, Carlyon

  Cooper, G. J.

  Fiennes, Hon. Eustace

  Benn, W.(T'w'rfl'ml'ts, S. Geo.)

  Corbett, C. H. (Sussex, E. Gr'st'd)

  Findlay, Alexander

  Bennett, E. N.

  Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.

  Flynn, James Christopher

  Borridge, T. H. D.

  Cotton, Sir H. J. S.

  Foster, Rt. Hon. Sir Walter

  Bethell, Sir J.H. (Essex, R'mf'd)

  Cowan, W. H.

  Freeman-Thomas, Freeman

  Bethell, T. R. (Essex, Maldon)

  Cox, Harold

  Fuller, John Michael F.

  Billson, Alfred

  Crean, Eugene

  Fullerton, Hugh

  Black, Arthur W. (Bedfordsh.)

  Cremer, William Randal

  Gibb, James (Harrow)

  Boland, John

  Crombie, John William

  Gill, A. H.

  Boulton, A. C. F. (Ramsey)

  Crooks, William

  Ginnell, T.

  Bowerman, C. W.

  Crosfield, A. H.

  Gladstone, Rt. Hon. Herbert J.

  Brace, William

  Crossley, William J.

  Glendinning, R. G.

  Bramsdon, T. A.

  Davies, David (Montgomery Co)

  Goddard, Daniel Ford

  Branch, James

  Davies, Ellis William (Eifion)

  Gooch, George Peabody

  Brigg, John

  Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardigan

  Greenwood, G. (Peterborough)

  Gulland, John W

  M'Hugh, Patrick A.

  Ridsdale, E. A.

  Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

  M'Kenna, Reginald

  Roberts, G. H. (Norwich)

  Haldane, Rt. Hon. Richard B.

  M'Killop, W.

  Robertson, Rt. Hn. E. (Dundee)

  Hall, Frederick

  M'Laren, Sir C. D. (Leicester)

  Robertson, Sir G. Scott (Br'df'd)

  Halpin, J.

  M'Laren, H. D. (Stafford, W.)

  Roberrson, J. M. (Tyneside)

  Harcourt, Right Hon. Lewis

  M'Micking, Major G.

  Robinson, S.

  Hardie, J. Keir (Merthyr Tydvil)

  Maddison, Frederick

  Robson, Sir William Snowdon

  Hardy, George A. (Suffolk)

  Mallet, Charles E.

  Rogers, F. E. Newman

  Hart-Davies, T.

  Manfield, Harry (Northants)

  Rose, Charles Day

  Haslam, James (Derbyshire)

  Mansfield, H. Rondall (Lincoln

  Rowlands, J.

  Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth)

  Markham, Arthur Basil

  Runciman, Walter

  Haworth, Arthur A.

  Marks, G. Croydon (Launcest'n)

  Rutherford, V. H. (Brentford)

  Hayden, John Patrick

  Marnham, F. J.

  Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland

  Helme, Norval Watson

  Mason, A. E. W. (Coventry)

  Schwann, Sir C.E. (Manchester)

  Hemmerde, Edward George

  Massie, J.

  Scott, A. H.(Ashton under Lyne)

  Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

  Meagher, Michael

  Sears, J. E.

  Henderson, J. M. (Aberdeen, W.)

  Menzies, Walter

  Seaverns, J. H.

  Henry, Charles S.

  Micklem, Nathaniel

  Seddon, J.

  Herbert, Colonel Ivor (Mon., S.)

  Mond, A.

  Seely, Major J. B.

  Herbert, T. Arnold (Wycombe)

  Money, L. G. Chiozza

  Shackleton, David James

  Higham, John Sharp

  Mooney, J. J.

  Shaw, Rt. Hon. T. (Hawick B.)

  Hobart, Sir Robert

  Morgan, G. Hay (Cornwall)

  Shipman, Dr. John B.

  Hobhouse, Charles E. H.

  Morrell, Philip

  Silcock, Thomas Ball

  Hodge, John

  Morton, Alpheus Cleophas

  Simon, John Allsebrook

  Hogan, Michael

  Myer, Horatio

  Sloan, Thomas Henry

  Hooper, A. G.

  Napier, T. B.

  Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie

  Hope, W. Bateman (Somerset, N)

  Newnes, Sir George (Swansea)

  Soares, Ernest J.

  Horniman, Emslie John

  Nicholls, George

  Spicer, Sir Albert

  Hudson, Walter

  Nicholson, Charles N. (Donc'r)

  Stanger, H. Y.

  Hyde, Clarendon

  Nolan, Joseph

  Stanley, Hn. A. Lyulph (Ches.)

  Idris, T. H. W.

  Norton, Capt. Cecil William

  Steadman, W. C.

  Jackson, R. S.

  Nussey, Thomas Willans

  Stewart, Halley (Greenock)

  Jenkins, J.

  Nuttall, Harry

  Stewart-Smith, D. (Kendal)

  Johnson, John (Gateshead)

  O'Brien, Kendal (Tipper'ry Mid)

  Straus, B. S. (Mile End)

  Johnson, W. (Nuneaton)

  O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

  Sullivan, Donal

  Jones, Sir D. Brynmor (Swansea

  O'Doherty, Philip

  Summerbell, T.

  Jones, Leif (Appleby)

  O'Donnell, C. J. (Walworth)

  Taylor, John W. (Durham)

  Jowett, F. W.

  O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S.)

  Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)

  Joyce, Michael

  O'Dowd, John

  Tennant, H. J. (Berwickshire)

  Kekewich, Sir George

  O'Hare, Patrick

  Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.)

  Kelly, George D.

  O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.)

  Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr)

  Kennedy, Vincent Paul

  O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N)

  Thomasson, Franklin

  Kincaid-Smith, Captain

  O'Malley, William

  Thompson, J. W.H.(Somerset E)

  King, Alfred John (Knutsford)

  O'Shaughnessy, P. J

  Tomkinson, James

  Kitson, Rt. Hon. Sir James

  Parker, James (Halifax)

  Torrance, Sir A. M.

  Laidlaw, Robert

  Partington, Oswald

  Toulmin, George

  Lamb, Edmund G. (Leominst'r)

  Paul, Herbert

  Trevelyan, Charles Philips

  Lamb, Ernest H. (Rochester)

  Paulton, James Mellor

  Ure, Alexander

  Lambert, George

  Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek)

  Vivian, Henry

  Lamont, Norman

  Pearce, William (Limehouse)

  Wadsworth, J.

  Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, W.)

  Pearson, W. H. M. (Suffolk, Eye)

  Walters, John Tudor

  Layland-Barratt, Francis

  Philipps, Col. Ivor (S'thampton)

  Walton, Sir John L. (Leeds, S.)

  Lea, Hugh Cecil (St. Pancras, E)

  Philipps, Owen C. (Pembroke)

  Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

  Leese, Sir Joseph F. (Ac'r'gton

  Pickersgill, Edward Hare

  Ward, W. Dudley (Southamp'n)

  Lever, A. Levy (Essex, Harwich)

  Pirie, Duncan V.

  Wardle, George J.

  Levy, Maurice

  Pollard, Dr.

  Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan)

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Power, Patrick Joseph

  Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney)

  Lloyd-George, Rt. Hon. David

  Price, Robert John (Norfolk, E.)

  Waterlow, D. S.

  Lough, Thomas

  Priestley, Arthur (Grantham)

  Watt, H. Anderson

  London, W.

  Priestley, W.E.B. (Bradford, E)

  Wedgwood, Josiah C.

  Luttrell, Hugh Fownes

  Radford, G. H.

  Whitbread, Howard

  Lyell, Charles Henry

  Raphael, Herbert H.

  White, George (Norfolk)

  Lynch, H. B.

  Rea, Russell (Gloucester)

  White, J. D. (Dumbartonshire)

  Macdonald, J. M (Falkirk B'hs

  Redmond, John E. (Waterford

  White, Luke(York, E. R.)

  Mackarness, Frederic C.

  Redmond, William (Clare)

  Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

  Maclean, Donald

  Rees, J. D.

  Whittaker, Sir Thomas Palmer

  Macpherson, J. T.

  Rendall, Athelstan

  Wiles, Thomas

  MacVeagh, Jeremiah (Down, S.)

  Renton, Major Leslie

  Williams, J. (Glamorgan)

  MacVeigh, Charles (Donegal, E.)

  Richards, T. F. (Wolverhamp'n)

  Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)

  M'Callum, John M.

  Richardson, A.

  Wilson, Hon. C. H.W.(Hull, W)

  M'Crae, George

  Rickett, J. Compton

  Wilson, Henry J. (York, W.R.)

  164

  165

  Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)

  Winfrey, R.

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr. Whiteley and Mr. J. A. Pease.

  Wilson, J. H. (Middlesbrough)

  Wood, T. M'Kinnon

  Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)

  Young, Samuel

  NOES.

  Anstruther-Gray, Major

  Dixon, Sir Daniel

  Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlingt'n)

  Arkwright, John Stanhope

  Doughty, Sir George

  Percy, Earl

  Ashley, W. W.

  Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

  Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

  Banbury, Sir Frederick George

  Du Cros, Harvey

  Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel

  Banner, John S. Harmood-

  Duncan, Robert (Lanark, Gov'n)

  Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert

  Beach, Hn. Michael Hugh Hicks

  Faber, George Denison (York)

  Rutherford, John (Lancashire)

  Beckett, Hon. Gervase

  Fardell, Sir T. George

  Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool

  Bowles, G. Stewart

  Fell, Arthur

  Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

  Boyle, Sir Edward

  Finch, Rt. Hon. George H.

  Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East)

  Bridgeman, W. Clive

  Fletcher, J. S.

  Smith, F.E. (Liverpool, Walton.)

  Burdett-Coutts, W.

  Hamilton, Marquess of

  Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)

  Butcher, Samuel Henry

  Hervey, F. W. F.(Bury S. Edm'ds)

  Starkey, John R.

  Carlile, E. Hildred

  Hill, Sir Clement (Shrewsbury)

  Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

  Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

  Houston, Robert Paterson

  Thomson, W. Mitchell- (Lanark)

  Cave, George

  Kennaway, Rt. Hon. Sir John H

  Tuke, Sir John Batty

  Cavendish, Rt. Hon. Victor C.W.

  Kenyon-Slaney, Rt. Hon. Col. W.

  Turnour, Viscount

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Kimber, Sir Henry

  Vincent, Col. Sir C. E. Howard

  Cecil, Lord R. (Marylebone, E.

  Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm.

  Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid)

  Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. A. (Wor)

  Lane-Fox, G. R.

  Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.)

  Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

  Law, Andrew Bonar (Dulwich)

  Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E. R.)

  Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow)

  Lockwood, Rt. Hon. Lt.-Col A R

  Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)

  Magnus, Sir Philip

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Sir Alexander Acland-Hood and Lord Balcarres.

  Courthope, G. Lloyd

  Mason, James F. (Windsor)

  Craig, Captain James (Down, E.

  Meysey-Thompson, E. C.

  Craik, Sir Henry

  Morpeth, Viscount

  MR. HARCOURT MR. HARCOURT moved what he ex-explained was a drafting Amendment to leave out the word "section" in line 12 in order to insert "provision." He said that he did this in order to provide that if a person knowingly acted in contravention of the provision contained in the first part of the clause he should be guilty of personation. Although it was merely a drafting Amendment it was important that it should be made.
  Amendment proposed to the Bill—
  "In page 1, line 12, to leave out the word 'section' and insert the word 'provision.'"—(Mr. Harcourt.)
  Amendment agreed to.
  MR. LANE-FOX MR. LANE-FOX moved an Amendment which would have the effect of omitting the penalties attaching to personating and under the Corrupt and Illegal Practices Act of 1883, and providing that a person guilty of an offence under the Bill should only be "liable on summary conviction to a penalty not exceeding forty shillings." He desired to emphasise the strong feeling that they on that side of the House had in regard to these penalties,
  166
  although it had been pointed out that the full penalties would not be exacted in all cases. To his mind it was monstrous that the Government, having deliberately set a trap by means of complicated machinery, should make a person prove himself innocent or be subject to the heaviest penalty which the law allowed. In a previous speech the right hon. Gentleman said he had been guilty of undue tenderness to the plural voter, in having put that person in danger of two years imprisonment. If that was the right hon. Gentleman's method of being unduly tender he wondered what happened when he became cruel. To all who knew him, it seemed impossible to believe that the right hon. Gentleman could be cruel, but if his measure of tenderness was to place his victims, trapped by his own machinery, within the range of a sentence of imprisonment for two years with hard labour, he could only say that he hoped that he might never cross the right hon. Gentleman in the full blast of his cruelty. He hoped that the right hon. Gentleman would show them that he was not the human tiger which he represented himself to be. The proscription of political opponents was no new form of political

  167
  movement, but to proscribe them in this manner by setting a trap for them and luring them into it was a most brutal form of proscription, and he would say, with all respect, the right hon. Gentleman had adopted a most clumsy method of doing it.
  MR. STANLEY WILSONseconded.
  Amendment proposed to the Bill—
  "In page 1, line 13, to leave out from the word 'be' to the word 'provided' in line 16, and insert the words 'liable on summary conviction to a penalty not exceeding 40a.'"— (Mr. Lane-Fox.)
  Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Bill."
  MR. HARCOURTsaid that the Amendment would provide an insufficient maximum penalty. It would be taken
  as an indication to certain persons that they might have as many votes as they chose, and that a penalty of £2 would cover the electoral offence. It was desirable not to make it easy and cheap to break the law and wilfully to evade the provisions of the Bill.
  MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAINagreed with the right hon. Gentleman that the penalty proposed by his hon. friend was insufficient, but he thought that the maximum penalty imposed by the Government was altogether too severe and out of proportion to the offence. Therefore he should vote against the words of the Government standing part of the Bill.
  Question put.
  The House divided:— Ayes, 360; Noes, 76. (Division List No. 451.)

  AYES.

  Abraham, William (Rhondda)

  Bramsdon, T. A.

  Cremer, William Randal

  Acland, Francis Dyke

  Branch, James

  Crombie, John William

  Agnew, George William

  Brigg, John

  Crooks, William

  Ainsworth, John Stilling

  Bright, J. A.

  Crosfield, A. H.

  Alden, Percy

  Brocklehurst, W. B.

  Crossley, William J.

  Allen, A. Acland (Christchurch)

  Brodie, H. C.

  Davies, Ellis William (Eifion)

  Allen, Charles P. (Stroud)

  Brooke, Stopford

  Davies, M. Vaughan- (Cardigan)

  Ambrose, Robert

  Brunner, J. P. L. (Lancs., Leigh)

  Davies, Timothy (Fulham)

  Armitage, R.

  Brunner, Rt. Hn Sir JT (Cheshire)

  Davies, W. Howell (Bristol, S.)

  Armstrong, W. C. Heaton

  Bryce, Rt. Hn. James (Aberdeen

  Dewar, Arthur (Edinburgh,) S.

  Ashton, Thomas Gair

  Bryce, J. A. (Inverness Burghs)

  Dickinson, W. H. (St. Pancras)

  Asquith, Rt. Hon. Herbert Henry

  Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn

  Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.

  Astbury, John Meir

  Buckmaster, Stanley O.

  Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

  Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth)

  Burke, E. Haviland-

  Dillon, John

  Baker, Joseph A. (Finsbury, E.)

  Burns, Rt. Hon. John

  Dobson, Thomas W.

  Balfour, Robert (Lanark)

  Burnyeat, W. J. D.

  Donelan, Captain A.

  Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight)

  Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas

  Duffy, William J.

  Barker, John

  Byles, William Pollard

  Duncan, C.(Barrow-in-Furness

  Barlow, John Emmott (Somers't)

  Cairns, Thomas

  Dunn, A. Edward (Camborne)

  Barlow, Percy (Bedford)

  Carr-Gomm, H. W.

  Dunne, Major E. Martin(Walsall)

  Barnard, E. B.

  Causton, Rt. Hn. Richard Knight

  Edwards, Clement (Denbigh)

  Barnes, G. N.

  Cawley, Sir Frederick

  Edwards, Enoch (Hanley)

  Barran, Rowland Hirst

  Chance, Frederick William

  Edwards, Frank (Radnor)

  Beale, W. P.

  Charming, Sir Francis Allston

  Elibank, Master of

  Beauchamp, E.

  Cheetham, John Frederick

  Ellis, Rt. Hon. John Edward

  Beaumont, Hn. W.C.B (Hexham)

  Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R.

  Erskine, David C.

  Beck, A. Cecil

  Clarke, C. Goddard

  Esmonde, Sir Thomas

  Bellairs, Carlyon

  Cleland, J. W.

  Essex, R. W.

  Benn, W. (T'w'rH'mlets, S. Geo.)

  Clough, William

  Evans, Samuel T.

  Bennett, E. N.

  Collins, Stephen (Lambeth)

  Eve, Harry Trelawney

  Berridge, T. H. D.

  Collins, Sir Wm J.(S. Pancras, W)

  Everett, R. Lacey

  Bethell, Sir J.H (Essex, Romf'rd)

  Condon, Thomas Joseph

  Faber, G. H. (Boston)

  Bethell, T. R. (Essex, Waldon)

  Cooper, G. J.

  Fenwick, Charles

  Billson, Alfred

  Corbott, C. H. (Sussex. E. Grinst'd)

  Ferens, T. R.

  Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine

  Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.

  Fiennes, Hon. Eustace

  Black, Arthur W.(Bedfordshire

  Cotton, Sir H. J. S.

  Findlay, Alexander

  Boland, John

  Cowan, W. H.

  Flynn, James Christopher

  Boulton, A. C. F. (Ramsey)

  Cox, Harold

  Foster, Rt. Hon. Sir Walter

  Bowerman, C. W.

  Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth)

  Freeman-Thomas, Freeman

  Brace, William

  Crean, Eugene

  Fuller, John Michael F.

  Fullerton, Hugh

  Lynch, H. B.

  Priestley, W. E.B.(Bradford, E.)

  Gibb, James (Harrow)

  Macdonald, J.M (Falkirk B'ghs.)

  Radford, G. H.

  Gill, A. H.

  Mackarness, Frederic C.

  Rainy, A. Rolland

  Ginnell, L.

  Maclean, Donald

  Raphael, Herbert H.

  Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herbert John

  Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.

  Rea, Russell (Gloucester)

  Glendinning, R. G.

  MacNeill, John Gordon Swift

  Redmond, John E. (Waterford)

  Goddard, Daniel Ford

  Macpherson, J. T.

  Redmond, William (Clare)

  Gooch, George Peabody

  MacVeagh, Jeremiah (Down, S.)

  Rees, J. D.

  Greenwood, G. (Peterborough)

  MacVeigh, Charles (Donegal, E)

  Rendall, Athelstan

  Gulland, John W.

  M'Callum, John M.

  Renton, Major Leslie

  Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

  M'Crae, George

  Richards, T F(Wolverh'mpton)

  Haldane, Rt. Hon. Richard B.

  M'Hugh, Patrick A.

  Richardson, A.

  Hall, Frederick

  M'Kenna, Reginald

  Rickett, J. Compton

  Halpin, J.

  M'Killop, W.

  Ridsdale, E. A.

  Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Lewis

  M'Laren, Sir C. B. (Leicester)

  Roberts, G. H. (Norwich)

  Hardie, J. Keir (Merthyr Tydvil)

  M'Laren, H. D. (Stafford, W.)

  Robertson, Rt. Hon. E. (Dundee)

  Hardy, George A. (Suffolk)

  M'Micking, Major G.

  Robertson, Sir G Scott (Bradford)

  Hart-Davies, T.

  Maddison, Frederick

  Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside)

  Haslam, James (Derbyshire)

  Mallet, Charles E.

  Robinson, S.

  Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth)

  Manfield, Harry (Northants)

  Robson, Sir William Snowdon

  Haworth, Arthur A.

  Mansfield, H. Rendall (Lincoln)

  Rogers, F. E. Newman

  Hayden, John Patrick

  Markham, Arthur Basil

  Rose, Charles Day

  Helme, Norval Watson

  Marks, G. Croydon (Launceston)

  Rowlands, J.

  Hemmerde, Edward George

  Marnham, F. J.

  Runciman, Walter

  Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

  Mason, A. E. W. (Coventry)

  Rutherford, V. H. (Brentford)

  Henderson, J. M.(Aberdeen, W.)

  Massie, J.

  Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)

  Henry, Charle S.

  Meagher, Michael

  Schwann, C. Duncan (Hyde)

  Herbert, Colonel Ivor (Mon., S.)

  Menzies, Walter

  Schwann, Sir C.E (Manchester)

  Herbert, T. Arnold (Wycombe)

  Micklem, Nathaniel

  Scott, A H (Ashton under Lyne)

  Higham, John Sharp

  Molteno, Percy Alport

  Sears, J. E.

  Hobart, Sir Robert

  Mond, A.

  Seaverns, J. H.

  Hobhouse, Charles E. H.

  Money, L. G. Chiozza

  Seddon, J.

  Hodge, John

  Mooney, J. J.

  Seely, Major J. B.

  Hogan, Michael

  Morgan, G. Hay (Cornwall

  Shackleton, David James

  Hooper, A. G.

  Morrell, Philip

  Shaw, Rt. Hon. T. (Hawick B.)

  Hope, W. Bateman (Somerset. N)

  Morton, Alpheus Cleophas

  Shipman, Dr. John G.

  Horniman, Emslie John

  Myer, Horatio

  Silcock, Thomas Ball

  Hodson, Walter

  Napier, T. B.

  Simon, John Allsebrook

  Hyde, Clarendon

  Newnes, Sir George (Swansea)

  Sinclair, Rt. Hon. John

  Idris, T. H. W.

  Nicholls, George

  Sloan, Thomas Henry

  Isaacs, Rufus Daniel

  Nicholson, Charles N (Doncaster)

  Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie

  Jackson, R. S.

  Nolan, Joseph

  Soames, Arthur Wellesley

  Jenkins, J.

  Norton, Capt. Cecil William

  Soares, Ernest J.

  Johnson, John (Gateshead)

  Nussey, Thomas Willans

  Spicer, Sir Albert

  Johnson, W. (Nuneaton)

  Nuttall, Harry

  Stanger, H. Y.

  Jones, Sir D. Brynmor (Swansea)

  O'Brien, Kendal (Tipperary Mid)

  Stanley, Hn. A. Lyulph (Chesh.)

  Jones, Leif (Appleby)

  O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

  Steadman, W. C.

  Jowett, F. W.

  O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)

  Stewart, Halley (Greenock)

  Joyce, Michael

  O'Doherty, Philip

  Stewart-Smith, D. (Kendal)

  Kekewich, Sir George

  O'Donnell, C. J. (Walworth)

  Straus, B. S. (Mile End)

  Kelley, George D.

  O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S.)

  Sullivan, Donal

  Kennedy, Vincent Paul

  O'Dowd, John

  Summerbell, T.

  Kincaid-Smith, Captain

  O'Hare, Patrick

  Taylor, John W. (Durham)

  King, Alfred John (Knutsford)

  O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.)

  Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)

  Kitson, Rt. Hon. Sir James

  O'Kelly, James (Roscommon N)

  Tennant, H. J. (Berwickshire)

  Laidlaw, Robert

  O'Malley, William

  Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.)

  Lamb, Edmund G.(Leominster)

  O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

  Thomas, David Alfred(Merthyr)

  Lamb, Ernest H. (Rochester)

  Parker, James (Halifax)

  Thomasson, Franklin

  Lambert, George

  Partington, Oswald

  Thompson, J.W.H(Somerset, E.)

  Lamont, Norman

  Paul, Herbert

  Tomkinson, James

  Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, W.)

  Paulton, James Mellor

  Torrance, Sir A. M.

  Layland-Barratt, Francis

  Pearce, Robert (Staffs. Leek)

  Toulmin, George

  Lea, Hugh Cecil (St. Pancras, E.)

  Pearco, William (Limehouse)

  Trevelyan, Charles Philips

  Leese, Sir Joseph F.(Accrington)

  Pearson, W.H.M. (Suffolk, Eye)

  Ure, Alexander

  Lever, A. Levy(Essex, Harwich)

  Philipps, Col. Ivor (S'thampton)

  Vivian, Henry

  Levy, Maurice

  Philipps, Owen C. (Pembroke)

  Wadsworth, J.

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Pickersgill, Edward Hare

  Walters, John Tudor

  Lloyd-George, Rt. Hon. David

  Pirie, Duncan V.

  Walton, Sir John L. (Leeds, S.)

  Lough, Thomas

  Pollard, Dr.

  Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

  Lundon, W.

  Power, Patrick Joseph

  Ward, W. Dudley(Southampton

  Lupton, Arnold

  Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central

  Wardle, George J.

  Luttrell, Hugh Fownes

  Price, Robert John (Norfolk, E.)

  Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan)

  Lyell, Charles Henry

  Priestley, Arthur (Grantham)

  Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney)

  170

  171

  Waterlow, D. S.

  Whittaker, Sir Thomas Palmer

  Winfrey, E.

  Watt, H. Anderson

  Wiles, Thomas

  Wood, T. M'Kinnon

  Wedgwood, Josiah O.

  Williams, J. (Glamorgan)

  Young, Samuel

  Whitbread, Howard

  Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)

  White, George (Norfolk)

  Wilson, Hon. C. H.W. (Hull, W.)

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr. Whiteley and Mr. J. A. Pease.

  White, J. D. (Dumbartonshire)

  Wilson, Henry J. (York, W.R.)

  White, Luke (York, E.R.)

  Wilson, John (Durham, Mid)

  White, Patrick (Meath, North)

  Wilson, J. H. (Middlesbrough)

  Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

  Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)

  NOES.

  Acland-Hood, Rt. Hn. Sir Alex. F.

  Craik, Sir Henry

  Morpeth, Viscount

  Anson, Sir William Reynell

  Dixon, Sir Daniel

  Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington

  Anstruther-Gray, Major

  Doughty, Sir George

  Percy, Earl

  Arkwright, John Stanhope

  Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

  Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

  Ashley, W. W.

  Du Cros, Harvey

  Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel

  Balcarres, Lord

  Duncan, Robert (Lanark, Govan)

  Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert

  Banbury, Sir Frederick George

  Faber, George Denison (York)

  Rutherford, John (Lancashire)

  Banner, John S. Harmood-

  Fardell, Sir T. George

  Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool)

  Beach, Hn. Michael Hugh Hicks

  Fell, Arthur

  Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

  Beckett, Hon. Gervase

  Finch, Rt. Hon. George H.

  Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East)

  Bowles, G. Stewart

  Fletcher, J. S.

  Smith, F. K (Liverpool, Walton)

  Boyle, Sir Edward

  Hamilton, Marquess of

  Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)

  Bridgeman, W. Clive

  Heaton, John Henniker

  Starkey, John R.

  Burdett-Coutts, W.

  Hervey, F. W. F.(Bury S. Edm'ds)

  Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

  Butcher, Samuel Henry

  Hill, Sir Clement (Shrewsbury)

  Thomson, W. Mitchell-(Lanark

  Carlile, E. Hildred

  Hills, J. W.

  Tuke, Sir John Batty

  Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

  Houston, Robert Paterson

  Turnour, Viscount

  Cave, George

  Kennaway, Rt. Hn. Sir John H.

  Vincent, Col. Sir C. E. Howard

  Cavendish, Rt. Hn. Victor C.W.

  Kenyon-Slaney, Rt. Hn. Col. W.

  Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid)

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Kimber, Sir Henry

  Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.)

  Cecil, Lord R. (Marylebone E.)

  Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm.

  Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-

  Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. A. (Worc)

  Law, Andrew Bonar (Dulwich)

  Younger, George

  Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

  Lee, Arthur H.(Hants., Fareham)

  Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow)

  Lockwood, Rt. Hn. Lt. -Col. A. R.

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr. Lane-Fox and Mr. Stanley Wilson.

  Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)

  Magnus, Sir Philip

  Courthope, G. Loyd

  Mason, James F. (Windsor)

  Craig, Captain James (Down, E.

  Meysey-Thompson, E. C.

  And, it being after half-past Ten of the clock, Mr. SPEAKER proceeded, pursuant to the Order of the House of 26th November, to put forthwith the Questions on the Amendments moved by the Government, of which notice had been given.
  Amendments proposed to the Bill—
  "In page 1, line 16, to leave out from the word 'that,' to end of sub-section, and insert '(a) the Court before whom any person is convicted of the offence of personation under this section may, if they think fit, instead of inflicting the punishment of imprisonment, impose a fine not exceeding five hundred pounds; and (b) the provisions of Section 86 of The Parliamentary Voters Registration Act, 1843, as to giving a person into custody whom an agent declares to be guilty of personation shall not apply in a case where the personation alleged is personation under this Act; and (c) a person may be convicted
  172
  of aiding, abetting, counselling, or procuring the commission of personation under this Act if he knowingly and with the intention of defeating the provisions of this Act, aids, abets, counsels, or procures any person to act in contravention of the foregoing provision of this section, whether that person in so acting would be acting knowingly, and with the intention of evading the provisions of this Act, or not.'"
  "In page 1, line 21, to leave out the words 'a person desiring,' and insert the words 'where a person owing to his being registered in two or more constituencies, or owing to the probability of his becoming so registered desires.'"
  "In page 1, line 22, after the word 'Act' to insert the word 'he.'"—(Mr. Harcourt.)
  Amendments agreed to.
  Amendment proposed to the Bill—
  "In page 1, line 22, to leave out the words 'send or cause to be sent a,' and to insert the word 'give.'"—(Mr. Harcourt.)
  Question put, "That the Amendment be made."
  The House divided:—Ayes, 363; Noes, 76. (Division List No. 452.)

  AYES.

  Abraham, William (Rhondda)

  Churchill, Winston Spencer

  Hall, Frederick

  Acland, Francis Dyke

  Clarke, C. Goddard

  Halpin, J.

  Agnew, George William

  Cleland, J. W.

  Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Lewis

  Ainsworth, John Stirling

  Clough, William

  Hardie, J. Keir (Merthyr Tydvil)

  Alden, Percy

  Cobbold, Felix Thornley

  Hardy, George A. (Suffolk)

  Allen, A. Acland (Christchurch)

  Collins, Stephen (Lambeth)

  Hart-Davies, T.

  Allen, Charles P. (Stroud)

  Collins, Sir Wm J. (S. Pancras, W)

  Haslam, James (Derbyshire)

  Ambrose, Robert

  Condon, Thomas Joseph

  Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth)

  Armitage, R.

  Cooper, G. J.

  Haworth, Arthur A.

  Armstrong, W. C. Heaton

  Corbett, C. H (Sussex, E. Grinst'd)

  Hayden, John Patrick

  Ashton, Thomas Gair

  Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.

  Helme, Norval Watson

  Asquith, Rt. Hn Herbert Henry

  Cotton, Sir H. J. S.

  Hemmerde, Edward George

  Astbury, John Meir

  Cowan, W. H.

  Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

  Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth)

  Cox, Harold

  Henderson, J. M (Aberdeen, W.)

  Baker, Joseph A. (Finsbury, E.)

  Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth)

  Henry, Charles S.

  Balfour, Robert (Lanark)

  Crean, Eugene

  Herbert, Colonel Ivor (Mon., S.)

  Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight)

  Cremer, William Randal

  Herbert, T. Arnold (Wycombe)

  Barker, John

  Crombie, John William

  Higham, John Sharp

  Barlow, John Emmott (Somers't)

  Crooks, William

  Hobart, Sir Robert

  Barlow, Percy (Bedford)

  Crosfield, A. H.

  Hobhouse, Charles E. H.

  Burnard, E. B.

  Crossley, William J.

  Hodge, John

  Barnes, G. N.

  Davies, Ellis William (Eifion)

  Hogan, Michael

  Barran, Rowland Hirst

  Davies, M. Vaughan- (Cardigan)

  Hooper, A. G.

  Beale, W. P.

  Davies, Timothy (Fulham)

  Hope, W. Bateman (Somerset, N

  Beauchamp, E.

  Davies, W. Howell (Bristol, S.)

  Horniman, Emslie John

  Beaumont. Hn W. C. B (Hexham)

  Dewar, Arthur (Edinburgh, S.)

  Howard, Hon. Geoffrey

  Beck, A. Cecil

  Dickinson, W. H (St. Pancras, N.)

  Hudson, Walter

  Bellairs, Carlyon

  Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.

  Hyde, Clarendon

  Benn, W (T'w'rH'mlets, S. Geo.)

  Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

  Idris, T. H. W.

  Bennett, E. N.

  Dillon, John

  Isaacs, Rufus Daniel

  Berridge, T. H. D.

  Dobson, Thomas W.

  Jackson, R. S.

  Bethell, Sir J H (Essex, Romf'rd)

  Donelan, Captain A.

  Jenkins, J.

  Bethell, T. R. (Essex, Maldon)

  Duffy, William J.

  Johnson, John (Gateshead)

  Billson, Alfred

  Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness

  Johnson, W. (Nuneaton)

  Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine

  Dunn, A. Edward (Camborne)

  Jones, Sir D. Brynmor (Swansea)

  Black, Arthur W(Bedfordshire)

  Dunne, Major E. Martin (Walsall)

  Jones, Leif (Appleby)

  Boland, John

  Edwards, Clement (Denbigh)

  Jowett, F. W.

  Boulton, A. C. F. (Ramsey)

  Edwards, Enoch (Hanley)

  Joyce, Michael

  Bowerman, C. W.

  Edwards, Frank (Radnor)

  Kekewich, Sir George

  Brace, William

  Elibank, Master of

  Kelley, George D.

  Bramsdon, T. A.

  Ellis, Rt. Hon. John Edward

  Kennedy, Vincent Paul

  Branch, James

  Erskine, David C.

  Kincaid-Smith, Captain

  Brigg, John

  Esmonde, Sir Thomas

  King, Alfred John (Knutsford)

  Bright, J. A.

  Essex, R. W.

  Kitson, Rt. Hon. Sir James

  Brocklehurst, W. B.

  Eve, Harry Trelawney

  Laidlaw, Robert

  Brodie, H. C.

  Everett, R. Lacey

  Lamb, Edmund G. (Leominster

  Brooke, Stopford

  Faber, G. H. (Boston)

  Lamb, Ernest H. (Rochester)

  Brunner, J. F. L. (Lancs., Leigh)

  Fenwick, Charles

  Lambert, George

  Brunner, Rt. Hn. Sir J T(Cheshire)

  Ferens, T. R.

  Lamont, Norman

  Bryce, Rt. Hn. James (Aberdeon)

  Fiennes, Hon. Eustace

  Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, W.)

  Bryce, J. A. (Inverness B'rghs)

  Findlay, Alexander

  Layland-Barratt, Francis

  Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn

  Flynn, James Christopher

  Lea, Hugh Cecil (St. Pancras, E.)

  Buckmaster, Stanley O.

  Foster, Rt. Hon. Sir Walter

  Leese, Sir Joseph F.(Accrington)

  Burke, E. Haviland-

  Freeman-Thomas, Freeman

  Lever, A. Levy (Essex, Harwich

  Burns, Rt. Hon. John

  Fuller, John Michael F.

  Levy, Maurice

  Burnyeat, W. J. D.

  Fullerton, Hugh

  Lewis, John Horbert

  Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas

  Gibb, James (Harrow)

  Lloyd-George, Rt. Hon. David

  Buxton, Rt. Hn. Sydney Charles

  Gill, A. H.

  Lough, Thomas

  Bytes, William Pollard

  Ginnell, L.

  Lundon, W.

  Cairns, Thomas

  Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herbert John

  Lupton, Arnold

  Carr-Gomm, H. W.

  Glendinning, R. G.

  Luttrell, Hugh Fownes

  Causton, Rt. Hn. Richard Knight

  Goddard, Daniel Ford

  Lyell, Charles Henry

  Cawley, Sir Frederick

  Gooch, George Peabody

  Lynch, H. B.

  Chance, Frederick William

  Greenwood, G. (Peterborough)

  Macdonald, J. M (Falkirk B'ghs)

  Channing, Sir Francis Allston

  Gulland, John W.

  Mackarness, Frederic C.

  Cheetham, John Frederick

  Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

  Maclean, Donald

  Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R.

  Haldane, Rt. Hon. Richard B.

  Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.

  MacNeill, John. Gordon Swift

  Paulton, James Mellor

  Soares, Ernest J.

  Macpherson, J. T.

  Pearce, Robert (Staffs. Leek)

  Spicer, Sir Albert

  MacVeagh, Jeremiah (Down, S.

  Pearce, William (Limehouse)

  Stanger, H. Y.

  MacVeigh, Charles (Donegal, E)

  Pearson, W.H.M. (Suffolk, Eye)

  Stanley, Hn. A. Lyulph (Chesh.)

  M'Callum, John M.

  Philipps, Col. Ivor (S'thampton)

  Steadman, W. C.

  M'Crae, George

  Philipps, Owen C. (Pembroke)

  Stewart, Halley (Greenock)

  M'Hugh, Patrick A.

  Pickersgill, Edward Hare

  Stewart-Smith, D. (Kendal)

  M'Kenna, Reginald

  Pirie, Duncan V.

  Straus, B. S. (Mile End)

  M'Killop, W.

  Pollard, Dr.

  Sullivan, Donal

  M'Laren, Sir C. B. (Leicester)

  Power, Patrick Joseph

  Summerbell, T.

  M'Laren, H. D. (Stafford, W.)

  Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central)

  Taylor, John W. (Durham)

  M'Micking, Major G.

  Price, Robert John (Norfolk, E

  Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)

  Maddison, Frederick

  Priestley, Arthur (Grantham)

  Tennant, H. J. (Berwickshire)

  Mallett, Charles E.

  Priestley, W. E. B. (Bradford, E.)

  Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.)

  Manfield, Harry (Northants)

  Radford, G. H.

  Thomas, David Alfred(Merthyr)

  Mansfield, H. Rendall (Lincoln)

  Rainy, A. Rolland

  Thomasson, Franklin

  Markham, Arthur Basil

  Raphael, Herbert H.

  Thompson, J.W.H (Somerset, E

  Marks, G. Croydon (Launcest'n)

  Rea, Russell (Gloucester)

  Tomkinson, James

  Marnham, F. J.

  Redmond, John E. (Waterford

  Torrance, Sir A. M.

  Mason, A. E. W. (Coventry)

  Redmond, William (Clare)

  Toulmin, George

  Massie, J.

  Rees, J. D.

  Trevelyan, Charles Philips

  Meagher, Michael

  Rendall, Athelstan

  Ure, Alexander

  Menzies, Walter

  Renton, Major Leslie

  Vivian, Henry

  Micklem, Nathaniel

  Richards. T.P. (Wolverh'mpton)

  Wadsworth, J.

  Molteno, Percy Alport

  Richardson, A.

  Walters, John Tudor

  Mond, A.

  Rickett, J, Compton

  Walton, Sir John L. (Leeds, S.)

  Money, L. G. Chiozza

  Ridsdale, E. A.

  Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

  Mooney, J. J.

  Roberts, G. H. (Norwich)

  Wardle, George J.

  Morgan, G. Hay (Cornwall)

  Robertson, Rt. Hn. E. (Dundee

  Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan)

  Morrell, Philip

  Robertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradf'rd

  Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney)

  Morton, Alpheus Cleophas

  Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside)

  Waterlow, D. S.

  Myer, Horatio

  Robinson, S.

  Watt, H. Anderson

  Napier, T. B.

  Robson, Sir William Snowdon

  Wedgwood, Josiah C.

  Newnes, Sir George (Swansea)

  Rogers, P. E. Newman

  Whitbread, Howard

  Nicholls, George

  Rose, Charles Day

  White, George (Norfolk)

  Nicholson, Charles N.(Doncaster)

  Rowlands, J.

  White, J. D. (Dumbartonshire)

  Nolan, Joseph

  Runciman, Walter

  White, Luke (York, E. R.)

  Norton, Capt. Cecil William

  Rutherford, V. H. (Brentford)

  White, Patrick (Meath, North)

  Nussey, Thomas Willans

  Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)

  Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

  Nuttall, Harry

  Schwann, C. Duncan (Hyde)

  Whittaker, Sir Thomas Palmer

  O'Brien, Kendal (Tipperary Mid

  Schwann, Sir C. E. (Manchester)

  Wiles, Thomas

  O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

  Scott, A. H.(Ashton under Lyne)

  Williams, J. (Glamorgan)

  O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)

  Sears, J. E.

  Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)

  O'Doherty, Philip

  Seaveras, J. H.

  Wilson, Hn. C.H.W. (Hull, W.)

  O'Donnell, C. J. (Walworth)

  Seddon, J.

  Wilson, Henry J. (York, W.R.)

  O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S.)

  Seely, Major J. B.

  Wilson, John (Durham, Mid)

  O'Dowd, John

  Shackleton, David James

  Wilson, J. H. (Middlesbrough)

  O'Hare, Patrick

  Shaw, Rt. Hon. T. (Hawick B.)

  Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)

  O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.)

  Shipman, Dr. John G.

  Winfrey, R.

  O'Kelly, James (Roscommon N)

  Silcock, Thomas Ball

  Wood, T. M'Kinnon

  O'Malley, William

  Simon, John Allsebrook

  Young, Samuel

  O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

  Sinclair, Rt. Hon. John

  Parker, James (Halifax)

  Sloan, Thomas Henry

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES— Mr. Whiteley and Mr. J. A. Pease.

  Partington, Oswald

  Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie

  Paul, Herbert

  Soames, Arthur Wellesley

  NOES.

  Anson, Sir William Reynell

  Carlile, E. Hildred

  Doughty, Sir George

  Anstruther-Gray, Major

  Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

  Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

  Arkwright, John Stanhope

  Cave, George

  Du Cros, Harvey

  Ashley, W. W.

  Cavendish, Rt. Hn. Victor C. W.

  Duncan, Robert (Lanark Govan

  Balfour Rt. Hn A. J. (City Lond.)

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Faber, George Denison (Yorks)

  Banbury, Sir Frederick George

  Cecil, Lord R. (Marylebone, E.)

  Fardell, Sir T. George

  Banner, John S. Harmood-

  Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. A. (Worc)

  Fell, Arthur

  Beach, Hn. Michael Hugh Hicks

  Cochrane, Hn. Thos. H. A. E.

  Finch, Rt. Hon. George H.

  Beckett, Hon. Gervase

  Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow)

  Fletcher, J. S.

  Bowles, G. Stewart

  Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)

  Hamilton, Marquess of

  Boyle, Sir Edward

  Courthope, G. Loyd

  Hay, Hon. Claude George

  Bridgeman, W. Clive

  Craig, Captain James (Down, E.

  Heaton, John Henniker

  Burdett-Coutts, W.

  Craik, Sir Henry

  Hervey, F. W. F (Bury S. Edm'ds)

  Butcher, Samuel Henry

  Dixon, Sir Daniel

  Hill, Sir Clement (Shrewsbury)

  176

  177

  Hills, J. W.

  Morpeth, Viscount

  Thomson, W. Mitchell- (Lanark)

  Houston, Robert Paterson

  Percy, Earl

  Tuke, Sir John Batty

  Kennaway, Rt. Hn. Sir John H.

  Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

  Turnour, Viscount

  Kenyon-Slaney, Rt. Hn. Col. W

  Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel

  Vincent, Col. Sir C. E. Howard

  Kimber, Sir Henry

  Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert

  Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid)

  Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm.

  Rutherford, John (Lancashire)

  Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.)

  Lane-Fox, G. R.

  Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool)

  Wilson, A Stanley (York, E. R.)

  Law, Andrew Bonar (Dulwich)

  Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

  Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart.

  Leo, Arthur H.(Hants., Fareham)

  Smith, Abel H.(Hertford, East)

  Lockwood, Rt. Hn. Lt.-Col. A. R.

  Smith, F.E (Liverpool, Walton)

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Sir Alexander Acland-Hood and Lord Balcarres.

  Magnus, Sir Philip

  Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)

  Mason, James F. (Windsor)

  Starkey, John R.

  Meysey-Thompson, E. C.

  Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

  Amendment proposed to the Bill—
  "In page 1, line 23, to leave out the words 'signed by him.'"—(Mr. Harcourt.)
  Amendment agreed to.
  Amendment proposed to the Bill—
  "In page 1, line 27, after the word 'effect,' to insert the words 'by delivering or causing
  to be delivered or sending by post to the clerk a notice to that effect signed by him.'"—(Mr. Harcourt.)
  Question put, "That the Amendment be made."
  The House divided:—Ayes, 354; Noes, 72. (Division List No. 453.)

  AYES.

  Abraham, William (Rhondda)

  Brocklehurst, W. B.

  Davies, M. Vaughan- (Cardigan

  Acland, Francis Dyke

  Brodie, H. C.

  Davies, Timothy (Fulham)

  Agnew, George William

  Brooke, Stopford

  Davies, W. Howell (Bristol, S.)

  Ainsworth, John Stirling

  Brunner, J. F. L. (Lancs., Leigh)

  Dewar, Arthur (Edinburgh, S.

  Alden, Percy

  Brunner, Rt. Hn. Sir J.T.(Ches.)

  Dickinson, W. H. (St. Pancras, N.)

  Allen, A. Acland (Christchurch

  Bryce, Rt. Hn. James (Aberd'n)

  Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.

  Allen, Charles P. (Stroud)

  Bryce, J. A. (Inverness Burghs)

  Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

  Ambrose, Robert

  Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn

  Dillon, John

  Armitage, R.

  Buckmaster, Stanley O.

  Dobson, Thomas W.

  Armstrong, W. C. Heaton

  Burke, E. Haviland-

  Donelan, Captain A.

  Ashton, Thomas Gair

  Burns, Rt. Hon. John

  Duffy, William J.

  Asquith, Rt. Hn. Herbert Henry

  Burnyeat, W. J. D.

  Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness

  Astbury, John Meir

  Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas

  Dunn, A. Edward (Camborne)

  Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth)

  Buxton, Rt. Hn. Sydney Charles

  Dunne, Major E. Martin (Walsall)

  Baker, Joseph A. (Finsbury, E.)

  Byles, William Pollard

  Edwards, Clement (Donbigh)

  Balfour, Robert (Lanark)

  Cairns, Thomas

  Edwards, Enoch (Hanley)

  Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight

  Carr-Gomm, H. W.

  Edwards, Frank (Radnor)

  Barker, John

  Causton, Rt. Hn. Richard Knight

  Elibank, Master of

  Barlow, John Eramott (Som'rs't)

  Chance, Frederick William

  Ellis, Rt. Hon. John Edward

  Barlow, Percy (Bedford)

  Channing, Sir Francis Allston

  Erskine, David C.

  Barnard, E. B.

  Cheetham, John Frederick

  Esmonde, Sir Thomas

  Barnes, G. N.

  Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R.

  Essex, R. W.

  Barran, Rowland Hirst

  Churchill, Winston Spencer

  Evans, Samuel T.

  Beale, W. P.

  Clarke, C. Goddard

  Eve, Harry Trelawney

  Beauchamp, E.

  Cleland, J. W.

  Everett, R. Lacey

  Beaumont, Hn. W. C. B. (H'xh'm)

  Clough, William

  Faber, G. H. (Boston)

  Beck, A. Cecil

  Cobbold, Felix Thornley

  Fenwick, Charles

  Bellairs, Carylon

  Collins, Stephen (Lambeth)

  Ferens, T. R.

  Benn, W. (T'w'r H'mlets, S. Geo.)

  Collins, Sir Wm. J.(S. Pancras, W)

  Findlay, Alexander

  Bennett, E. N.

  Condon, Thomas Joseph

  Flynn, James Christopher

  Berridge, T. H. D.

  Cooper, G. J.

  Foster, Rt. Hon. Sir Walter

  Bethell, Sir J.H. (Essex, R'mf'd)

  Corbett, C.H. (Sussex, E. Gr'ns'd)

  Freeman-Thomas, Freeman

  Bethell, T. R. (Essex, Maldon)

  Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.

  Fuller, John Michael F.

  Billson, Alfred

  Cotton, Sir H. J. S.

  Fullerton, Hugh

  Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine

  Cowan, W. H.

  Gibb, James (Harrow)

  Black, Arthur W. (Bedfordsh.)

  Cox, Harold

  Gill, A. H.

  Boland, John

  Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth)

  Ginnell, L.

  Boulton, A. C. P. (Ramsey)

  Crean, Eugene

  Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herbert John

  Bowerman, C. H.

  Cremer, William Randal

  Glendinning, R. G.

  Brace, William.

  Crombie, John William

  Goddard, Daniel Ford

  Bramsdon, T. A.

  Crooks, William

  Gooch, George Peabody

  Branch, James

  Crosfield, A. H.

  Greenwood, G. (Peterborough)

  Brigg, John

  Crossley, William J.

  Gulland, John W.

  Bright, J. A.

  Davies, Ellis William (Eifion)

  Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

  Haldane, Rt. Hon. Richard B.

  M'Hugh, Patrick A.

  Richardson, A.

  Hall, Frederick

  M'Kenna, Reginald

  Rickett, J. Compton

  Halpin, J.

  M'Killop, W.

  Ridsdale, E. A.

  Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Lewis

  M'Laren, Sir C. B. (Leicester)

  Roberts, G. H. (Norwich)

  Hardie, J. Keir (Merthyr Tydvil)

  M'Laren, H. D. (Stafford, W.)

  Robertson, Rt. Hn. E.(Dundee)

  Hardy, George A. (Suffolk)

  M'Micking, Major G.

  Robertson, Sir G. Scott (Br'df'd)

  Hart-Davies, T.

  Maddison, Frederick

  Robertson, J. M. (Tyneide)

  Haslam, James (Derbyahire)

  Mallet, Charles E.

  Robinson, S.

  Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth)

  Manfield, Harry (Northants)

  Robson, Sir William Snowdon

  Haworth, Arthur A.

  Mansfield, H. Rendall (Lincoln)

  Rogers, F. E. Newman

  Hayden, John Patrick

  Markham, Arthur Basil

  Rose, Charles Day

  Helme, Norval Watson

  Marks, G. Croydon (Launceston)

  Rowlands, J.

  Hemmerde, Edward George

  Marnham, F. J.

  Runciman, Walter

  Henderson, Arthur (Denham)

  Mason, A. E. W. (Coventry)

  Rutherford, V. H. (Brentford)

  Henderson, J. M. (Aberdeen, W

  Massie, J.

  Samuel, Herbert L.(Cleveland)

  Henry, Charles S.

  Meagher, Michael

  Schwann, C. Duncan (Hyde)

  Herbert, Colonel Ivor, (Mon., S.)

  Menzies, Walter

  Schwann, Sir C. E. (Manchester)

  Herbert, T. Arnold (Wycombe

  Micklem, Nathaniel

  Scott, A. H.(Ashton-under Lyne)

  Higham, John Sharp

  Molteno, Percy Alport

  Sears, J. E.

  Hobart, Sir Robert

  Mond, A.

  Seaverns, J. H.

  Hodge, John

  Money, L. G. Chiozza

  Seddon, J.

  Hogan, Michael

  Mooney, J. J.

  Seely, Major J. B.

  Hooper, A. G.

  Morgan, G. Hay (Cornwall)

  Shackleton, David James

  Hope, W. Bateman (Somerset, N)

  Morrell, Philip

  Shaw, Rt. Hon. T. (Hawick B.)

  Horniman, Emslie John

  Morton, Alpheus Cleophas

  Shipman, Dr. John G.

  Howard, Hon Geoffrey

  Myer, Horatio

  Silcock, Thomas Ball

  Hudson, Walter

  Napier, T. B.

  Simon, John Allsebrook

  Hyde, Clarendon

  Newnes, Sir George (Swansea)

  Sinclair, Rt. Hon. John

  Idris, T. H. W.

  Nicholls, George

  Sloan, Thomas Henry

  Isaacs, Rufus Daniel

  Nicholson, Charles N. (Donc'r)

  Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie

  Jackson, R. S.

  Nolan, Joseph

  Soames, Arthur Wellesley

  Johnson, John (Gateshead)

  Norton, Capt. Cecil William

  Soares, Ernest J.

  Johnson, W. (Nuneaton)

  Nussey, Thomas Willans

  Spicer, Sir Albert

  Jones, Sir D. Brynmor (Swansea

  Nuttall, Harry

  Stanger, H. Y.

  Jones, Leif (Appleby)

  O'Brien, Kendal (Tipper'y Mid)

  Stanley, Hn. A. Lyulph (Ches.)

  Jowett, F. W.

  O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

  Steadman, W. C.

  Joyce, Michael

  O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)

  Stewart, Halley (Greenock)

  Kekewich, Sir George

  O'Doherty, Philip

  Stewart-Smith, D. (Kendal)

  Kelley, George D.

  O'Donnell, C. J. (Walworth)

  Straus, B. J. (Mile End)

  Kennedy, Vincent Paul

  O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S.)

  Sullivan, Donal

  Kincaid-Smith, Captain

  O'Hare, Patrick

  Summerbell, T.

  King, Alfred John (Knutsford)

  O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.)

  Taylor, John W. (Durham)

  Kitson, Rt. Hon. Sir James

  O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N)

  Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)

  Laidlaw, Robert

  O'Malley, William

  Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.

  Lamb, Edmund G. (Leominster)

  O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

  Thomas, David Alfred(Merthyr)

  Lamb, Ernest H. (Rochester)

  Parker, James (Halifax)

  Thomasson, Franklin

  Lambert, George

  Partington, Oswald

  Thompson, J. W. H. (S'm'rset, E.)

  Lamont, Norman

  Paul Herbert

  Tomkinson, James

  Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, W.)

  Paulton, James Mellor

  Toulmin, George

  Layland-Barratt, Francis

  Pearce, Robert (Staffs. Leek)

  Trevelyan, Charles Philips

  Lea, Hugh Cecil (St. Pancras, E)

  Pearce, William (Limehouse)

  Ure, Alexander

  Leese, Sir Joseph F. (Accr'gton)

  Pearson, W. H. M. (Suffolk, Eye

  Vivian, Henry

  Lever, A. Levy (Essex, Harwich)

  Philipps, Col. Ivor (S'thampt'n)

  Wadsworth, J.

  Levy, Maurice

  Philipps, Owen C. (Pembroke)

  Walters, John Tudor

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Pickersgill, Edward Hare

  Walton, Sir John L. (Leeds, S.)

  Lloyd-George, Rt. Hon. David

  Pirie, Duncan V.

  Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

  Lough, Thomas

  Pollard, Dr.

  Wardle, George J.

  Lundon, W.

  Power, Patrick Joseph

  Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan)

  Lupton, Arnold

  Price, C.E. (Edinburgh, Central

  Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney

  Luttrell, Hugh Fownes

  Price, Robert John (Norfolk, E.

  Waterlow, D. S.

  Lyell, Charles Henry

  Priestley, Arthur (Grantham)

  Watt, H. Anderson

  Lynch, H. B.

  Priestley, W. E. B. (Bradford, E

  Wedgwood, Josiah C.

  Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk B.

  Radford, G. H

  Whitbread, Howard

  Mackarness, Frederic C.

  Rainy, A. Rolland

  White, George (Norfolk)

  Maclean, Donald

  Raphael, Herbert H.

  White, J. D. (Dumbartonshire)

  Macnarmara, Dr. Thomas J.

  Rea, Russell (Gloucester)

  White, Luke (Cork, E. R.)

  MacNeill, John Gordon Swift

  Redmond, John E. (Waterford

  White, Patrick (Meath, North)

  Macpherson, J. T.

  Redmond, William (Clare)

  Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

  MacVeagh, Jeremiah (Down, S.)

  Rees, J. D.

  Whittaker, Sir Thomas Palmer

  MacVeigh, Charles (Donegal, E.

  Rendall, Athelstan

  Wiles, Thomas

  M'Callum, John M.

  Renton, Major Leslie

  Williams, J. (Glamorgan)

  M'Crae, George

  Richards, T. F. (Wolverh'mp'n)

  Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)

  180

  181

  Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R.)

  Winfrey, R.

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr. Whiteley and Mr. J. A. Pease.

  Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)

  Wood, T. M'Kinnon

  Wilson, W. T. (Westohughton)

  Young, Samuel

  NOES.

  Anson, Sir William Reynell

  Craik, Sir Henry

  Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

  Anstruther-Gray, Major

  Dixon, Sir Daniel

  Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel

  Arkwright, John Stanhope

  Doughty, Sir George

  Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert

  Ashley, W. W.

  Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

  Rutherford, John (Lancashire)

  Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (City Lond)

  Duncan, Robert (Lanark, G'vn)

  Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool)

  Banbury, Sir Frederick George

  Faber, George Denison (York)

  Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

  Banner, John S. Harmood-

  Fardell, Sir T. George

  Smith, Abel H..(Hertford, East)

  Beach, Hn. Michael Hugh Hicks

  Fell, Arthur

  Smith, F. E. (Liverpool, Walton)

  Beckett, Hon. Gervase

  Fench, Rt. Hon. George H.

  Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)

  Bowles, G. Stewart

  Fletcher, J. S.

  Starkey, John R.

  Boyle, Sir Edward

  Hay, Hon. Claude George

  Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

  Bridgeman, W. Clive

  Hervey, F. W. F. (Bury S. Ed'ds)

  Thomson, W. Mitchell-(Lanark)

  Burdett-Coutts, W.

  Hill, Sir Clement (Shrewsbury)

  Take, Sir John Batty

  Butcher, Samuel Henry

  Hills, J. W.

  Turnour, Viscount

  Carlile, E. Hildred

  Kennaway, Rt. Hon. Sir John H

  Vincent, Col. Sir C. E. Howard

  Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

  Kenyon-Slaney, Rt. Hon. Col. W

  Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid)

  Cave, George

  Kimber, Sir Henry

  Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.)

  Cavendish, Rt. Hn. Victor C. W.

  Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm.

  Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E. R.)

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Lane-Fox, G. R.

  Wortley, Rt. Hon. C.B. Stuart-

  Cecil, Lord R. (Marylebone, E.)

  Law, Andrew Bonar (Dulwich)

  Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

  Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. A.(Wore.)

  Lee, Arthur H. (Nants., Fareh'm)

  Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

  Lockwood, Rt. Hn. Lt.-Col. A.R

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Sir

  Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow)

  Maagnus, Sir Philip

  Alexander Acland-Hood and

  Corbett, T. L. (Devon, North)

  Mason, James F. (Windsor)

  Lord Balcarres.

  Courthope, G. Loyd

  Meysey-Tohmpson, E. C.

  Craig, Captain James (Down, E.)

  Morpeth, Viscount

  Amendments proposed—
  "In page 1, line 28, and page 2, line 1, to leave out the words 'send an acknowledgment of the receipt of the said notice, and.'"
  "In page 2, line 1, to leave out the words 'sending,' and insert the words 'giving.'"
  "In page 2, line 7, to leave out all after the word 'withdrawn,' to the end of the sub section, and insert as new paragraphs, 'A person desiring to withdraw his notice of selection must give notice of withdrawal to the clerk of the county council or town clerk acting for the constituency the selection of which is to be withdrawn, by delivering or causing to be delivered or sending by post to the clerk a notice to that effect signed by him. The clerk shall send an acknowledgment of the receipt of every notice of selection or withdrawal received by him, and shall retain and preserve all notices so received, and allow any person to inspect these notices on payment of a fee not exceeding one shilling."
  "In page 2, line 9, to leave out the words 'intent to evade,' and insert the words 'the intention of evading.'"
  "In page 2, line 11, to leave out the words 'sends or causes to be sent a,' and insert the word' gives.'
  "In page 2, line 15, to leave out the words 'sends or causes to be seat a,' and insert the word' gives.'
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  "In page 2, line 19, at end, to insert, (4)'A Court before whom a person is convicted under this section of the offence of personation or of an illegal practice may, if they think it just under the circumstances of the case, mitigate or entirely remit any incapacities imposed by Section 6 or Section 10 of The Corrupt and Illegal Practices Prevention Act, 1883, and if on application made it is shown to the High Court that any person has acted in contravention of this section without any intention of evading the provisions of this Act the Court shall have a similar power to grant relief as is contained in Section 23 of the said Act.'"
  "In page 2, line 19, at end, to insert, 'If any person forges or fraudulently alters or uses or fraudulently gives or allows to be given by any other person any notice of selection or withdrawal under this Act, he shall be guilty of an illegal practice within the meaning of The Corrupt and Illegal Practices Prevention Act. 1883.'"
  "In page 2, line 19, at end, to insert 'If any person directly or indirectly by himself or by any other person on his behalf induces or attempts to induce any person to refrain from voting as a Parliamentary elector by informing that person that he is registered in two or more constituencies knowing that he is not so registered, or without having reasonable ground to believe that he is so registered, that person shall be guilty of undue influence within the

  183
  meaning of Section 2 of The Corrupt and Illegal Practices Prevention Act, 1883.'"
  "In page 2, line 19, at end, to insert 'If on an election petition the vote of any person is objected to on the ground that it has been given in contravention of this Act, the vote shall not be rejected on that ground if the voter satisfies the Court that he did not know that he was registered in any constituency other than that in which he has voted.'"
  "In page 2, line 19, at end, to insert 'If any clerk of a county council or town clerk wilfully fails to perform any duty imposed on him by or in pursuance of this Act, he shall be liable to forfeit to any person aggrieved the penal sum of one hundred pounds, or such less sum as the Court before whom the action for the recovery of the sum is tried shall consider just.'"
  "In page 2, line 30, to leave out all after the word 'constituency,' to end of subsection.'"
  "In page 2, line 38, after the word 'with,' to insert the word 'the.'
  "In page 2, line 38, to leave out the words 'to evade,' and to insert the words 'of evading.'"
  "In page 3, lines 7, 8 and 9, to leave out the words 'as respects Ireland under Section 3 of The Parliamentary Registration (Ireland) Act, 1885.'"
  "In page 3, to leave out lines 17 and 18, and to insert 'The expressions 'elector' and 'person entitled to vote' and other similar expressions when used in any Act of Parliament, whether passed before or after the commencement of this Act, shall, except so far as the contrary intention appears, and except so far as necessary to carry out the provisions of this Act, be construed to include any person registered as a Parliamentary elector in any constituency, although under the provisions of this Act he may be debarred from voting in that constituency, subject as follows.'"
  "In page 3, line 22, to leave out the word 'section,' and to insert the words 'sections one and.'"
  "In page 3, line 23, to leave out the words 'that Act,' and to insert the words 'The Corrupt and Illegal Practices Prevention Act, 1883.'"
  "In page 3, line 23, at end to add '(2) A person registered as a Parliamentary elector in any constituency shall not be treated as a 'voter' 'elector,' or 'registered elector' in that constituency for the purposes of the First and Third Schedules of The Parliamentary Elections (Returning Officers) Act, 1875, or
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  the First Schedule of The Corrupt and Illegal Practices Prevention Act, 1883, if his place of abode, as entered in the register, is not the same as his qualifying premises as so entered, and he has not selected that constituency as his voting constituency under this Act. The clerk of the county council or town clerk shall enter in his summary of the number of Parliamentary electors or otherwise on the register, the number of those electors whose place of abode is entered on the register as not the same as their qualifying premises as so entered, and who have not selected the constituency in question as their voting constituency under this Act.'"—(Mr. Harcourt.)
  "In Clause 6, page 3, line 31, after the word 'also,' to insert the words 'for the purposes of this Act.'"
  "In page 4, line 2, at end, to insert the words the Court of Session acting subject to the provisions of sub-section (4) of Section 68 of The Corrupt and Illegal Practices Prevention Act, 1883, shall be substituted for the High Court; the sheriff shall be substituted for a court of summary jurisdiction or county court, the Lord Advocate shall be substituted for the Attorney-General.'"
  "In page 4, line 2, at end, to insert the words 'A reference to the Schedule of The Parliamentary Elections, Returning Officers Expenses (Scotland) Act, 1878, and to the Schedule of the Returning Officers (Scotland) Act, 1891, shall be substituted for a reference to the First and Third Schedules of The Parliamentary Elections (Returning Officers) Act, 1875.'"—(The Lord Advocate.)
  "Schedule, page 5, line 9, after the word 'not,' to insert the words 'to my knowledge.'"
  "Schedule, page 5, line 20, after the word 'constituency,' to insert the words 'knowingly, and with the intention of evading the provisions of the Plural Voting Prevention Act, 1906.
  "Schedule, page 5, line 24, after the word 'and,' to insert the words 'subject to the provisions of that Act.'"—(Mr. Harcourt.)
  Amendments agreed to.
  Bill to be read the third time Tomorrow, and to be printed. [Bill 358.]
  Whereupon Mr. SPEAKER adjourned the House without Question put, pursuant to the Resolution of the House of the 4th August last.
  Adjourned at a quarter after Eleven o'clock.