Commons Sitting of 17 May 1906

Preamble
The House met at a Quarter before Three of the Clock.
PRIVATE BILL BUSINESS.

  RIVATE BILLS [LORDS] (STANDING ORDERS NOT PREVIOUSLY INQUIRED INTO COMPLIED WITH).
  Mr. SPEAKER Mr. SPEAKER laid upon the Table Report from one of the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, That, in the case of the following Bills, originating in the Lords, and referred on the First Reading thereof, the Standing Orders not previously inquired into, and which are applicable thereto, have been complied with, viz.:—Bury Corporation Bill [Lords]; Great Northern Railway (Ireland) Bill [Lords].
  Ordered, That the Bills be read a second time.

  PROVISIONAL ORDER BILLS (NO STANDING ORDERS APPLICABLE).
  Mr. SPEAKER Mr. SPEAKER laid upon the Table Report from one of the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, That, in the case of the following Bills referred on the First Reading thereof, no Standing Orders are applicable, viz.:—Sea Fisheries Provisional Order Bill; Local Government Provisional Orders (No. 7) Bill.
  Ordered, That the Bills be read a second time To-morrow.
  Corporation of London (Blackfriars and other Bridges) Bill. Read the third time, and passed.
  Electric Lighting Provisional Orders (No. 7) Bill. "To confirm certain Provisional Orders made by the Board of Trade under the Electric Lighting Acts, 1882 and 1888, relating to Barton-upon-Irwell, Cheshunt, Dorchester (Amendment), Eton (Rural), Hexham (Extension), Stourport and Kidderminster, and Uxbridge and District (Extension)," presented by Mr. Kearley; supported by Mr. Lloyd-George; read the first time; and referred to the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, and to lie printed. [Bill 215.]
  Poole Corporation Water Bill. "To authorise the Mayor, Aldermen, and Burgesses of the borough of Poole to acquire the undertaking of the Poole Waterworks Company, to construct additional waterworks, and to supply water within the said borough and the neighbourhood thereof; and for other purposes," presented, and read the first time; and ordered to be read a second time.
  Derby Gas Bill. Reported, with Amendments, Report to lie upon the Table.
  Baker Street and Waterloo Railway Bill; Great Northern Railway Bill; Metropolitan Railway Bill. Reported, with Amendments. Reports to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.
  Manchester Corporation Bill. Reported, with Amendments [amended Title]. Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.
  Norwich Union Life Insurance Society Bill [Lords]. Reported, without Amendment. Report to lie upon the Table.
  Bill to be read the third time.

  RAILWAY BILLS (GROUP 4).
  Sir GEORGE DOUGHTY reported from the Committee on Group 4 of Railway Bills; That the parties promoting the London Outer Circle Railway Bill had stated that the evidence of Oliver R. H. Bury was essential to their case; and it having been proved that his attendance could not be procured without the intervention of the House, he had been instructed to move that the said Oliver R. H. Bury do attend the said Committee To-morrow, at Eleven of the clock.
  Ordered, That Oliver R. H. Bury do attend the Committee on Group 4 of Railway Bills To-morrow, at Eleven of the clock.

  PRIVATE BILLS (GROUP G.).
  Mr. ALFRED HUTTON reported from the Committee on Group G. of Private Bills; That, for the convenience of parties, the Committee had adjourned till Tuesday next, at Eleven of the clock.
  Report to lie upon the Table.
  London Government Schemes (London and Penge, etc.) Bill. Reported, without Amendment [Provisional Orders confirmed]. Report to lie upon the Table.
  Bill to be read the third time To-morrow.

PETITIONS.
  EDUCATION (ENGLAND AND WALES) BILL (RELIGIOUS TEACHING).
  Petitions against alteration of Law; From Ashton-under-Lyne (two); Burley: Chiddingfold (two); Clydach-on-Tawe (two); Hale (two); Kingston-upon-Hull: Llandefaelog-fach (two): Llanguicke (two); Llansamlet (two): London; Lower Peover (two); Middleton; Nottingham; Otten Belchamp (two); Oystermouth; Paddington (two); Plaistow; Port Eynon (two); Ripley (Yorks) (two); St. Pancras; Stoke next Guilford (four): Walgrave (two): Walthamstow; Walthamstow and Leyton; and, Winchester (two); to lie upon the Table.
  EDUCATION (PROVISION OF MEALS) (SCOTLAND) BILL.
  Petition from Argyll, against; to lie upon the Table.
  JUVENILE SMOKING BILL.
  Petition of the Temperance Committee of the General Assembly of the Church of Scotland, in favour; to lie upon the Table.
  LAND VALUES TAXATION, ETC. (SCOTLAND) BILL.
  Petition from Glasgow, against; to lie upon the Table.
  LIQUOR TRAFFIC LOCAL VETO.
  Petition from South Shields, for legislation; to lie upon the Table.
  PARLIAMENTARY FRANCHISE.
  Petition from the Royal Burghs of Scotland, for extension to women; to lie upon the Table.
  POLLING ARRANGEMENTS (PARLIA MENTARY BOROUGHS) BILL.
  Petition from St. Marylebone, for alteration; to lie upon the Table.
  SALE OF INTOXICATING LIQUORS ON SUNDAY.
  Petition from South Shields, for prohibition; to lie upon the Table.
  SALE OF WHISKY BILL.
  Petition from Argyll, in favour; to lie upon the Table.
  STREET BETTING BILL.
  Petition from St. Pancras, in favour; to lie upon the Table.
  SUMMARY JURISDICTION (CHILDREN) BILL.
  Petition from Dundee, in favour; to lie upon the Table.
  TRAWLERS' CERTIFICATES SUSPEN SION BILL.
  Petition from Argyll, in favour; to lie upon the Table.
  TUBERCULOSIS (ANIMALS) PREVEN ION AND COMPENSATION BILL.
  Petition from Argyll, in favour; to lie upon the Table.
  VAGRANT CHILDREN BILL.
  Petitions against; from Blaby; and East Retford; to lie upon the Table.
  VOTING DISQUALIFICATION (POOR LAW) REMOVAL BILL.
  Petition from Argyll, against; to lie upon the Table.
RETURNS, REPORTS, ETC.
  TAXES AND IMPOSTS.
  Return ordered, "showing (1) the Rates of Duties, Taxes, or Imposts collected by Imperial officers; (2) the quantities or amounts taxed; (3) the gross receipts derived from each Duty; and (4) the net receipts and appropriations thereof in the year ending the 31st day of March 1906; and (1) the aggregate gross receipts derived from all such Duties, Taxes, or Imposts under the principal heads of revenue; (2) the aggregate net receipts; (3) the charges of collection; and (4) the produce, after deducting these charges, on each of the ten years ending the 31st day of March 1906; and notes to show any changes in the Taxes, Duties, and Imposts consequent upon the acceptance of the Budget proposals of 1906 (in continuation of Parliamentary Paper, No. 274, of Session 1905)."—(Mr. Goddard.)
QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS CIRCULATED WITH THE VOTES.

  Vacancies in the Central Telegraph Office.
  MR. GODDARD: To ask the Postmaster-General if ho will give the reason for the delay in filling up a number of appointments now vacant in the class of overseers and senior telegraphists at the Central Telegraph Office.
  (Answered by Mr. Sydney Buxton.) The promotions were sanctioned yesterday. They involved a good deal of inquiry.

  Bristol Telegraphic Delays.
  MR. W. T. WILSON: To ask the Postmaster-General whether complaints have been

  623
  made with respect to the delay on telegraphic messages passing through the Bristol telegraph office; whether the timing and coding of messages passing through or emanating at, Bristol have been altered by official instruction in order to minimise delay; whether the transmission of telegrams at that office has been interfered with owing to the reduction of staff in the instrument room; and whether he will investigate the whole of the circumstances connected with the administration at that office.
  (Answered by Mr. Sydney Buxton.) I have given the circumstances referred to by the hon Member my attention.

  Atrocities in the Congo State.
  MR. BENNETT: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether the attention of His Majesty's Government has been drawn to the disclosures of the Rev. H. M. Whiteside respecting a continuation of atrocities in the Congo State; whether His Majesty's Government are aware that the statements of Mr. Whiteside point to a state of affairs now prevailing identical with that discovered more than a year ago by the Congo Commission of Inquiry; and whether His Majesty's Government, in view of the successive delays of the Congo Government in effecting reforms, will consider the advisability of again sounding the Powers responsible for the creation of the Congo State with the object of bringing about a Conference of those Powers to consider the principles and practices applied on the Congo, which are responsible for the atrocities existing in that territory.
  (Answered by Secretary Sir Edward Grey.) I have not yet received the Report on his journey into the interior which I understand Mr. Whiteside is going to submit. It would not be advisable to make the suggested communication to the Powers until we see what effect is produced by the decrees, which it is hoped will shortly be issued, for the reform of the administration of the Congo State. We have already expressed our opinion of the urgency of not delaying these reforms.

  Papers on the Congo.
  MR. BENNETT: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs when it is
  624
  intended to lay Papers concerning the administration of the Congo State; and whether such Papers will include such portions of the evidence laid before the Congo Commission of Inquiry which may be in the hands of His Majesty's Government, the whole of which evidence has been suppressed by the Congo Government.
  (Answered by Secretary Sir Edward Grey.) The laying of the Papers promised earlier in the session was deferred in the expectation that the Report of the Reforms Commission, or the announcement of the reforms consequent upon it, would be made public in April, in which case they would have been included in the Papers. As this expectation has not been realised, the Papers will now be laid as soon as possible The evidence which is in the possession of His Majesty's Government has already appeared in the Press, and it does not seem necessary to print it again for a Parliamentary Paper.

  Case of Lieutenant Massard.
  MR. TREVELYAN: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether His Majesty's Government has boon informed that the trial of the Rev. Edgar Stannard, in the Congo State, has been postponed until June 15th; that the trial of Lieutenant Massard, of the Force Publique of that State, is not yet concluded, although that Congo official was arrested, by instructions of the Congo Commission of Inquiry, as far back as November, 1904; and what guarantees are possessed by His Majesty's Government that the proceedings against the Rev. Edgar Stannard will not be similarly delayed.
  (Answered by Secretary Sir Edward Grey.) Consul Nightingale has reported the postponement of the trial. I understand that Lieutenant Massard appealed against the sentence of the Court of First Instance. If the Delegation of that Court at Coquilhatville pronounces a judgment adverse to Mr. Stannard, and if Mr. Stannard appeals against that judgment, His Majesty's Government will take all possible steps to insure that the proceedings before the Court of Appeal shall not be unduly delayed.

  Case of the Rev, Edgar Stannard.
  MR. TREVELYAN: TO ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether His Majesty's Government will cable to Vice-Consul Armstrong, who is understood to be watching the proceedings in the case of the Rev. Edgar Stannard, at Coquilhatville, in the Congo State, for information as to the facilities, or the lack of them, which prevail in the matter of securing the attendance of native witnesses for the defence at the forthcoming trial of that British subject.
  (Answered by Secretary Sir Edward Grey.) A telegram has been sent to Mr. Armstrong in the sense suggested by the hon. Member.

  Hindustan-Tibet Road.
  SIR HENRY COTTON: To ask the Secretary of State for India whether the Indian Government has decided to complete the Hindustan-Tibet road, in order to establish an unbroken link between Simla and Gartok, the new trade mart in Western Tibet; and, if so, what is the estimated cost of this project.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Morley.) I have no official information as to any scheme for completing the Hindustan-Tibet road to Gartok. The Government of India have been asked to report on the subject with reference to the statements that have appeared in the Press.

  Gyangtse Trade Mart.
  SIR HENRY COTTON: To ask the Secretary of State for India whether the Indian Government has decided to construct a road from British territory in the Tulpigoree district, through the independent state of Bhutan, for a distance of eighty miles into Tibet, in order to establish a new line of communication from Bengal to the new trade mart at Gyangtse in Central Tibet; and, if, so, what is the estimated cost of this project.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Morley.) The survey of a road from the Julpaguri district in Bengal through Bhutan to Chumbi was carried out in 1905, by agreement with the Bhutan authorities. But no proposal to construct the road has been received from the Government of
  626
  India, nor have any estimates been furnished of the cost.

  British Indian Trade with Tibet.
  SIR HENRY COTTON: To ask the Secretary of State for India what is the value of the export and of the import trade between British India and Tibet during the last year for which official figures are available.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Morley.) The figures for the twelve months ending 31st March 1905 are, exports to Tibet, £79,539; imports from Tibet, £92,421; total £171,960. For the nine months ending 31st December 1905, the exports were £95,576, and the imports £111,578, or a total of £207,154.

  Irish Ordnance Survey.
  MR. FIELD: To ask the hon. Member for South Somerset, as representing the President of the Board of Agriculture, whether ho is aware that the wages of the chainmen employed in the Irish field sections is less than the wages paid to men engaged in similar work by the headquarters division at Southampton; and whether he will consider the advisability of allowing those chainmen working field sections for a period of five years to be rated as skilled labourers.
  (Answered by Sir Edward Strachey.) The wages paid to chainmen employed in field sections are the same in Ireland as in England. There are no men at Southampton engaged in similar work. The duties of a chainman in the field cannot properly be classed as skilled labour. They are in no way analogous to the various duties performed at Southampton by labourers who are rated as "skilled."

  Pensions in the Survey Department.
  MR. FIELD: To ask the hon. Member for South Somerset, as representing the President of the Board of Agriculture, whether ho is aware that in the seventy pensionable positions in the Survey Department, including headquarters and division offices, when vacancies occur the positions are, in the majority of cases, filled by ex-Royal Engineers who are already in receipt of a pension; whether, with a view to promoting efficiency, stops will be taken to discontinue the system

  627
  of superseding temporary civil assistants with years of service and experience, and also labourers who have given satisfaction; and whether he will consider the necessity of providing a pension for temporary civil servants and labourers when discharged on reduction or on reaching the age limit after ten years continuous service.
  (Answered by Sir Edward Strachey.) Vacancies in the pensionable posts are filled by the selection in each case of the man best suited to the particular post, irrespective of whether he has served in the Army or not. At present these posts are held by thirty-five assistants who have had no Army service, twenty-nine who have had Army service, and eight who are still serving in the Royal Engineers. Owing to the reduction in the amount of work to be done, it is necessary to give notice of discharge to some of the employees, and, in the interests of efficiency, those who can best be spared are selected for discharge. The question of the superannuation of the temporary civil assistants is at present under the consideration of the Treasury.

  Post Office Telegraph Factories.
  MR. FIELD: To ask the Postmaster-General whether he can state what was the total cost including overtime of the clerical staff and labour employed in the Post Office Telegraph Factories during 1903–4, 1904–5, 1905–6, 1906–7 (estimated); and whether he will favourably consider proposals for establishing a Government factory in Dublin for the repair and manufacture of Post Office stores so as to ensure greater economy and efficiency, and provide a fair share of employment in Ireland.
  (Answered by Mr. Sydney Buxton.) The figures are as follows:—

  Financial year 1903–4

  £92,175

  Financial year 1904–5

  £90,436

  Financial year 1905–6

  £98,531

  Financial year 1906–7

  £89,108

  (Estimated).

  There are already local workships in Dublin and other towns in Ireland for the repair of apparatus, and I do not think I that the establishment of a Government I factory in Dublin would conduce to greater economy and efficiency.

  Purchase of Post Office Engineeing Stores in Ireland.
  MR. FIELD: To ask the Postmaster-General whether he can state what amount is spent annually on the purchase of Post Office engineering stores, and how much of this amount is spent in Ireland; whether he can state the value of such stores used up in Great Britain and Ireland, respectively; whether he contemplates giving contractors the same opportunities of tendering for the delivery of the Irish supplies in Dublin as are now afforded in the case of uniform, stationery, baskets, and bags required for the Post Office service in Ireland.
  (Answered by Mr. Sydney Buxton.) The amount spent last year on the purchase of Post Office engineering stores was £953,000, of which about £500 was spent in Ireland. The value of engineering stores used in Great Britain and Ireland was £952,000 and £11,500 respectively. Any makers of such stores in Ireland who desire to be invited to tender should send their names and all other necessary particulars to the Controller of Stores, Bedford Street, W.C.

  Transit of Live Stock in Ireland.
  MR. FIELD: To ask the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware that an Irish railway company issue a note to be signed by men who desire to travel with live stock consignments by which the company is excluded from liability to the men or their representatives for loss of life or personal injury, however caused or sustained on the journey; and whether he will take measures to prevent the issue of such document in future.
  (Answered by Mr. Lloyd-George.) The Board of Trade have received no complaints of the practice referred to by the hon. Member, but if he will be good enough to furnish further particulars I shall be happy to consider whether the Board of Trade could usefully take any steps in the matter.

  Gambling in Futures.
  MR. FIELD: To ask the President of the Board of Trade whether he will arrange to have furnished up to date a continuation of the Reports from His Majesty's representatives in foreign countries on legislative measures respecting gambling in option and future

  629
  contracts, furnished in May 1898, Commercial, No. 5, Paper.
  (Answered by Mr. Lloyd-George.) Arrangments will be made for bringing up to date the information contained in the Paper referred to.

  Wastage in the Royal Navy.
  MR. ARNOLD-FORSTER (Croydon): To ask the Secretary to the Admiralty what number of men and boys entered and left the Royal Navy (including the Royal Marines) during the year 1905, the waste not to include men struck off on account of death, permament invaliding, or imprisonment for felony or misdemeanour.
  (Answered by Mr. Edmund Robertson.) The numbers entered during 1905 were 8,667, and the wastage during the same period (excluding men struck off on account of death, permanent invaliding or imprisonment for felony or misdemeanour) was 10,454. It should, however, be added that there were special arrangements in force in 1905 in regard to discharges from the active list to the Royal Fleet Reserve, so that the wastage under that head was abnormal.

  Metropolitan Police.
  MR. ARNOLD-FORSTER: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many men entered and were discharged from the Metropolitan Police and the county and borough police outside the Metropolis respectively during the year 1905.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Gladstone.) The following table shows the number of men who entered and wore discharged from the Metropolitan Police Force during the year 1905: —

  Total number who joined

  1404

  The excess of men joining over removals from all causes is accounted for
  630
  by there being 211 vacancies at the beginning of the year and 364 net augmentation during the year. It would involve much time and labour to collect similar figures from the county and borough police forces, 187 in number, and unless there is special reason for doing so it would not be desirable to trouble them.

  Mines (Hours of Labour) Return.
  MR. BRUNNER: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he will grant a Return similar to the Mines (Hours of Labour) Return of 1890.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Gladstone.) The hon. Member no doubt desires this information in connection with the Eight Hours Bill now before Parliament. A Departmental Committee is to be appointed to consider this subject, and it will, I think, be desirable to leave the Committee to determine the form in which these particulars should be required.

  Insanitary Cottages at Bumpstead.
  MR. C. E. SCHWANN: To ask the President of the Local Government Board whether his attention has been called to the state of nine cottages in the hamlet of Bailey Hill, Birdbrook, in the rural district of Bumpstead, Essex, which are without any water supply, except a pond used by cattle, and further polluted by matter from the only convenience at the disposal of those nine dwellings; and whether, seeing that the sanitary authorities have exhausted their powers, he proposes to take any steps to coerce the owner to provide a proper supply without proceeding to close the cottages, as, although the inhabitants are in bad health, cottages are greatly needed in the locality.
  (Answered by Mr. John Burns.) I am aware of this case, and I understand that in attempt was made some time since to deal with it under The Public Health (Water) Act, 1878, but it would seem that this was not practicable under the terms of the Act. It appears to be very desirable that a proper supply of water should be provided for these cottages, but I have no power to compel the owner to make such provision. Whether the rural district council have exhausted their powers as regard the cottages I am

  631
  not at present able to say. I will communicate with them on the subject.

  Scottish Crofter Commission.
  MR. BARNES: To ask the Secretary for Scotland what were the number of cases dealt with in the last financial year by the Crofter Commission for Scotland; what was the amount of rent dealt with, the amount of remission or reduction, if any, and the cost to the country of such Commission.
  (Answered by Mr. Sinclair.) The information required by the hon. Member in the former part of his Question is contained in the Report by the Crofters Commission for year to 31st December 1905, Appendix BB, and the information required in the latter part of the Question is contained in the Estimates for the Civil Services, 1906–7, Class III., Section 12.

  Catterline Coastguard Station.
  MR. CROMBIE: To ask the Secretary to the Treasury whether the coastguard station at Catterline (Kincardineshire) is to be abolished in May 1907; and how long it has been in existence.
  (Answered by Mr. Edmund Robertson.) The coastguard station at Catterline will be closed on Whit Sunday, 1907. As far as can be ascertained, this coastguard station has been in existence since 1821.

  Assistant Clerks in Government Departments.
  MR. ASHTON: To ask the Secretary to the Treasury if it is contrary to any regulation of the Civil Service Commissioners for assistant clerks (abstractors) to petition for removal or to effect an exchange from one Department of the Civil Service to another, either with or without the concurrence of the heads of Departments concerned.
  (Answered by Mr. McKenna.) The Civil Service Commissioners raise no objection to petitions of assistant clerks (abstractors) for removal from one Department to another. They also put no obstacle in the way of exchanges. But the consent of the authorities of both Departments concerned is necessary for any such transfer or exchange.

  Non provided Schools in the Metropolis.
  MR. TALBOT: To ask the President of the Board of Education whether he can lay upon the Table of the House a Return showing the amount of expense incurred by the rate payers of the Metropolis, under the provisions of the Education Act of 1902, in respect of the maintenance of non-provided schools.
  (Answered by Mr. Birrell.) I have no information on the point; the financial returns of local education authorities under the Acts, of 1902–3 do not separate their expenditure as between council and voluntary schools, respectively.

  Education Bill School Rents.
  CAPTAIN FABER; To ask the President of the Board of Education whether the rents and money payments that are to be paid for schools under the Education Bill will be educational endowments, and as such, in cases where the trust has existed over thirty years, are open to be taken away from the trustees and dealt with under a scheme under Part II. of the Bill.
  (Answered by Mr. Birrell.) I cannot undertake to deal by means of Question and Answer with points of legal interpretation appearing to arise under clauses of the Bill that have not yet been discussed in Committee of the House.

  Benevolent Society of St. Patrick, Lambeth.
  SIR W. J. COLLINS: To ask the President of the Board of Education how the provisions of the Education Bill, if passed, would apply in the case of such a school as that of the Benevolent Society of St. Patrick,. Lambeth, where 450 children of Irish parentage are educated, clothed, and, in part, fed.
  (Answered by Mr. Birrell.) I am unable to give any more definite answer to the Question than that the reply must depend upon the particular circumstances of the school, and in particular upon the provisions under which the buildings are held. These are matters which will have to be carefully considered by the trustees and the local authority under Clause 2 of the Bill, or, failing this, may be brought before the Commission under

  633
  Clause 8; and it would be therefore improper for me now to express any opinion which might be held to predetermine the case.

  Furniture for Non-provided Schools.
  MR. ROBINSON: To ask the President of the Board of Education whether he will state who is liable to provide additional now furniture in cases of non-provided schools making reasonable demands for further and more complete equipment.
  (Answered by Mr. Birrell.) The point raised in the Question, if I do not misunderstand it, is one of legal interpretation of the provisions of the Act 1902, and depending in part upon the circumstances of each particular case. I have no power to express any opinion upon it, unless it were to arise as a matter of appeal between the managers and a local education authority in the case of an individual school under Section 7 (3) of the Act of 1902.

  Tobacco Strip Duty.
  MR. FIELD: To ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he will reconsider the proposed financial arrangement concerning the importation of tobacco strips, seeing that its effect will be to decrease employment in the three Kingdoms, and give more labour in America.
  (Answered by Mr. Asquith.) It is no doubt true that the effect of the additional duty on stripped tobacco, as of other protective duties, has been to create additional employment in a particular trade, but I cannot for that reason countenance the continuance of what I regard as a mischievous economic experiment.

  Irish Crown and Quit Rents.
  MR. FIELD: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that according to 10 George 4, c. 50, s. 108, the Irish Crown and quit rents should not lie merged in British taxation, but should be applied in taking up charges or purchasing other lands for the Crown; whether he can state what amount of Irish Crown and quit rents has been applied to paying off charges upon London parks; and whether he will take measures to recover this expenditure, and consider the advisability of
  634
  applying the accumulated revenue arising from Irish Crown and quit rents to the purchase of suitable waste mountain or bog areas in Ireland for the purpose of reafforestation, and to be worked as State or Crown forests.
  (Answered by Mr. McKenna.) The statutory authority quoted by the hon. Member refers only to moneys arising from the sale or exchange of Crown lands, etc., including quit, etc., rents in Ireland, and directs that these shall be applied in purchasing other lands for the Crown in the United Kingdom, or in redemption of charges or incumbrances on Crown lands. The moneys referred to, which are carried to the capital account of the Commissioners of Woods, have been applied accordingly, including £13,320 recently expended in buying land adjoining Phœnix Park. The London parks are under the management of the Commissioners of Works, whose department was separated from that of the Commissioners of Woods in 1851. The expenditure of the Commissioners of Works is voted by Parliament and is not paid out of the land revenues of the Crown, and it is not correct to say that any moneys received from the sale of Irish quit rents have been applied in paying off charges on those parks. As regards annual revenue from quit rents, the surplus is paid into the Exchequer each year and there is no accumulation thereof. The question of purchasing suitable waste areas in Ireland for reafforestation is one which must be dealt with on its merits, apart from any question connected with quit rents.

  Promotion in the Irish Local Government Board.
  MR. FIELD: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he can explain why the ordinary rule of promotion has been violated in the Local Government Board, Dublin, by promoting Mr. Sidwell over his seniors, Mr. Lee and Mr. Halligan; and whether such irregularity will be prevented in future; and whether compensation will be allotted to the senior officials who have been passed over.
  (Answered by Mr. McKenna.) The promotion complained of by the hon. Member occurred not in the Local Government Board but in the Board of

  635
  Works. Selection for promotion is made by merit, not by seniority. In the present instance, the Board of Works satisfied the Treasury that Mr. Sidwell's qualifications rendered him peculiarly well fitted for the post which he now holds.

  Dublin Metropolitan Police and Royal Irish Constabulary.
  MR. ARNOLD-FORSTER: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland how many men entered and were discharged from the Dublin Metropolitan Police and Royal Irish Constabulary respectively during the year 1905.
  (Answered by Mr. Bryce.) During the year 1905 eighty-six men entered and sixty-four were discharged from the Dublin Metropolitan Police, and 197 men entered and 536 were discharged from the Royal Irish Constabulary.

  Mrs. Adair's Mountmellick Estate.
  MR. DELANY: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether the Estates Commissioners are prepared to sanction the sale of an evicted farm to a planter on the estate of Mrs. Adair, near Mountmellick, in view of the fact that he is a future tenant and came into occupation since 1902, and that the evicted tenant, Thomas Flanagan, remains in the locality and claims the farm.
  MR. DELANY: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether steps will be taken by the Estates Commissioners to reinstate or provide a holding for Thomas Flanagan, Clonaghadoo, Queen's County, on the estate of Mrs. Adair, near Mountmellick, before sanctioning the sale of the eight holdings now before them for sale, in view of the fact that one of those is Flanagan's farm, which has been in the occupation of a planter since 1902.
  (Answered by Mr. Bryce.) The Estates Commissioners inform me that they have referred Mr. Flanagan's application to one of their inspectors for inquiry, and until the inspector's report has been received and considered they are unable to state what their decision may be, either in the case of the evicted tenant or in the matter of sanctioning the existing proceedings for sale.

  Desertions from Scottish Barracks.
  MR. WEIR (ROSS and Cromarty): To ask the Secretary of State for War, if he will state the percentage of desertions from the respective barracks in Scotland during each year since 1902.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Haldane.) I am afraid that I cannot supply my hon. friend with the information he requires, for the reasons set forth in my reply to a Question put by him on this subject on May 14th.†

  Wastage from the Regular Forces.
  MR. ARNOLD-FORSTER: To ask the Secretary of State for War what number of men and boys entered and left the Regular Army, Militia, Yeomanry, and Volunteers, respectively, during the year 1905, the waste in the case of the Regular Army not to include men struck off on account of death, permanent invaliding, or inprisonment for felony or misdemeanour, but to include all men passing into the Army Reserve.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Haldane.) In calculating the wastage for the Regular Forces, it has not been possible to exclude men struck oft' for imprisonment for felony or misdemeanour, as the figures for these items are only rendered in the annual Returns. Net desertions and net numbers going to the Reserve only have been included. The figures for the year 1905 are accordingly as follows:—

  Entered.

  Left.

  Regular Army

  37,539

  45,844

  Militia

  33,182

  34,646

  Imperial Yeomanry

  4,386

  5,769

  Volunteers (inclusive of H.A.C.)

  49,534

  52,937

  Railway Clerks and the Workmen's Compensation Act.
  SIR EDWARD SASSOON (Hythe): To ask the Prime Minister whether he would consider the claims of railway clerks to be included in the provisions of the Workmen's Compensation Act.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Gladstone.) I beg to answer this Question on behalf of my right hon. friend. As I have already stated, the Government are prepared to consider on their merits proposals for the inclusion in the Bill of classes of
  † See Col. 156

  637
  persons at present excluded, and I am aware that railway clerks may have a special claim to be included.

  QUESTIONS IN THE HOUSE.

    Naval Training.
    MR. BELLAIRS (Lynn Regis): I beg to ask the Secretary to the Admiralty whether, in view of the statement of the First Lord of the Admiralty that the Board declines to commit itself to that portion of Lord Cawdor's new scheme of naval training which decided that there was no need for a final division into three branches of executive, marine, and engineer officers, and of the lecture delivered at the war course Portsmouth, by Professor Ewing, Director of Naval Education, in which this decision is ignored, he will say whether the lecture was made public by permission of the Admiralty; and whether he will now take steps to publish the protests made by admirals in command of fleets, and who have recently been in command of fleets, against the new scheme of naval training.
    THE SECRETARY TO THE ADMIRALTY (Mr. EDMUND ROBERTSON, Dundee): In answer to the first part of the Question, the lecture was made public by permission of the Admiralty. The answer to the second part of the Question is in the negative.
    MR. BELLAIRS: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Admiralty whether he is aware that the new scheme of naval training was stated by Lord Cawdor in his statement of Admiralty policy, 30th November, 1905, to be based on the Report of a Departmental Committee appointed on 8th July, 1905, to investigate the question of specialisation and allocation of duties afloat and ashore for executive, engineer, and marine officers, and how best to provide for filling the higher scientific posts at the Admiralty and the dockyards: whether the Committee examined any executive officers, on how many days did they take evidence concerning officers, how many concerning the Royal Corps of Naval Constructors, and how many days were devoted to the examination of witnesses concerning the
    638
    provision of warrant officers for engine-room duties.
    MR. EDMUND ROBERTSON: I can only refer the hon. Member to the Report of the Committee recently presented to the House (Cd. 2841), in which he will find full information on all the points in question.
    MR. BELLAIRS: Is it not the case that no executive officers were examined by this Committee?
    MR. EDMUND ROBERTSON: The Report I have referred to will supply the answer to that question.

    German Purchases of Welsh Coal.
    MR. LONSDALE: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Admiralty if he will state the quantity of Welsh steam coal exported to Germany during the year 1905, consigned to agents of the German Government for use in the Navy.
    MR. EDMUND ROBERTSON: The Admiralty have no information on this subject.

    Territorial Army.
    MR. ARNOLD-FORSTER (Croydon): I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War what instructions, if any, have been given to the Committee appointed to advise on the formation of a Territorial Army; whether the Committee have received any guidance from the Army Council as to the part the proposed new Army is expected to play in time of war; and whether the Committee are empowered to make recommendations with respect to the Regular Army.
    THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WAR (Mr. HALDANE, Haddingtonshire): No formal terms of reference have been given to this Committee, but I propose to ask their advice on a number of questions which I shall put before them. These will not include questions concerning the Regular Army.
    MR. ARNOLD-FORSTERasked whether the questions would be laid before the House, and whether the Committee had received any guidance from the Army Council.
    MR. HALDANE: The Army Council is represented on the Committee. General Stopford is there with the full confidence of the Army Council. I am asking the Committee specific questions, with a view to a general scheme. When I am able to produce that general scheme I shall be able to answer the questions.
    MR. ARNOLD-FORSTERasked whether the reference would permit the consideration of the question of the utilisation of the Militia as an adjunct to the Regular Army.
    Mil. HALDANE: I have put specific questions to the Committee, and the answers will be the material for my scheme.

    Yeomanry Canteens.
    SIR J. DICKSON-POYNDER: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether the recent prohibition of the sale of spirits in Yeomanry canteens during training is based upon the assumption that the Yeomanry were brought under military law by the Militia and Yeomanry Act of 1901; and whether, seeing that statute makes no change in the military status of the Yeomanry from what it has been since the Act of 1804, he will explain why there should be any change in the canteen regulations.
    MR. HALDANE: Under the Army Act, 1881, Section 176 (7) the Yeomanry are subject to military law when being trained or exercised. Accordingly Yeomanry canteens are liable during training to be brought under the regulations for canteens for the Regular Army. I may say that in some cases I have relaxed the regulations for the coming training only.

    Southern Nigeria—Chief Nana.
    MR. CATHCART WASON: I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he has received and considered a petition from Chief Nana praying that he may be allowed to return to his own country; and whether, in view of the facts of the case, his petition will be granted.
    THE UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE TOR THE COLONIES (Mr. CHURCHILL, Manchester, N.W.): The petition has been received. Lord Elgin has, on representations made to him before its receipt, asked the Governor of Southern Nigeria to report on the question of allowing Nana to be repatriated, and is awaiting Sir W. Egerton's reply.

    British Indians and Transvaal Permits.
    SIR H. COTTON: I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether his attention has been drawn to the operation of the system of Transvaal permits, under which an educated Indian gentleman, a student of the Middle Temple, Mr. Suliman Manga, was lately refused even temporary permission to enter the Transvaal as a British subject, but was subsequently accorded permission to do so as a native of Portuguese territory in India; and whether, having regard 10 the effect produced in India when it becomes known that a native of Portuguese Goa is treated in a British Crown Colony with a consideration which is denied to him as a subject of the British Indian Empire, he will take stops to remove or modify the restrictions which are at present placed upon the movements of British Indian subjects in a British Crown Colony.
    MR. CHURCHILL: The Secretary of State is at present without information upon this case, but he will make prompt inquiry.

    Instruction in Hygiene in the Colonies.
    MR. CHARLES ROBERTS: I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies if ho can supply a Return stating what provision is made for the teaching of hygiene and temperance in public elementary schools, and for training teachers in these subjects in Canada, Victoria, South Australia, New South Wales, West Australia, and in Natal.
    MR. CHURCHILL: Information on the points referred to by the hon. Member is given in the Special Reports on the Educational Systems of the Colonies, Volumes 4 and 5, laid before Parliament in 1901 (Cd. 416 and Cd. 417). I have asked that the hon. Member shall be supplied with these Papers from the Colonial Office, and I hope they will roach him in the course of the day.

    Crown Lands in the Transvaal.
    MR. RUFUS ISAACS (Reading): I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies what is the acreage of the Crown lands in the Transvaal; what portions thereof are available for State-aided land settlement, and in what parts of the Transvaal such portions are situate; and whether any, and, if so, what steps are being taken to further the policy of colonisation by British settlers upon such lands.
    MR. CHURCHILL: The total area of Crown lands in the Transvaal is, I understand, a little over 30,000 square miles. There is little Crown land on the High Veld, and the majority is on the Middle or Low Veld, which is less suitable for settlement, the latter, indeed, being malarious. The progress of land settlement is shown in the last Report of the Commissioner of Lands, copies of which will be placed in the Library when they arrive from South Africa. Meanwhile, if my have and learned friend desires it, I can arrange for him to have access to the copy we have already received.
    MR. RUFUS ISAACS: I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether the Government has received any Reports from Dr. Jameson, the Commissioner of Crown Lands in the Transvaal, upon the nature and character of such lands and their suitability for the purpose of agricultural settlement; and, if not, whether he would call for such a Report.
    MR. CHURCHILL: As I have stated in reply to another Question, copies of the last Report of the Commissioner of Lands will be placed in the Library. The Report will be found to contain information of the nature referred to.

    Chinese Coolies—Deaths and Desertions on the Rand.
    MR. BYLES: I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether his attention has been called to the number of deaths and desertions among the Chinese coolies on the Rand; whether ho has any official information showing that last month the number of desertions reached 750 and of deaths 250; and whether ho can assure
    642
    the House that adequate measures are being taken to arrest this increase.
    MR. CHURCHILL: I have no official information as to the numbers for last month. The figures of convictions for desertions for February were 771 and of deaths seventy-nine, with a population of 49,995 Chinese. The number of deaths for April is given in an unofficial telegram as eighty-six, and I have no reason to doubt the accuracy of this figure. I should add that the great majority of eases of so-called desertion would be more accurately described as absences without leave.

    Transvaal Land Settlements.
    SIR J. DICKSON-POYNDER: I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he will provide copies of the Report of the Director of Land Settlements recently issued to the Legislative Council of the Transvaal.
    MR. CHURCHILL: The Colonial Government has been asked by telegraph for copies of the last Report of the Commissioner of Lands, which will be placed in the Library when received. In the meantime I shall be happy to give my hon. friend access to the copy in the possession of the Colonial Office whenever ho may wish to consult it.

    Jamaica Banana Trade.
    MR. VINCENT KENNEDY: I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies if he will state approximately what is the percentage of bananas imported from Jamaica entering English ports since the subsidy has been granted by this country for a direct line of steamers for this trade; what is the amount of the subsidy; what is the cost of transit as compared with the value of the fruit; and who benefits by the transaction.
    Mr. CHURCHILL: The proportion of bananas imported from Jamaica to the total import of bananas into the United Kingdom, since the contract for a direct line to Jamaica was signed, has varied from 27 per cent, to 10½ per cent., the average having been affected by the hurricane of August, 1903. The contract provided for an annual subsidy of £40,000, of which £20,000 is paid by the Imperial Government. The cost of

    643
    transit as compared with the value of the fruit can only be ascertained from Messrs. Elder Dempster. The contract was designed in the interests of the Jamaica fruit grower and the British consumer. But the importance of a direct mail service of steamers between the West Indies and this country is not to be measured merely by the value of the cargoes carried, and still less by any particular commodity included in these cargoes.

    Russo-Japanese War—Claims for Losses of British. Ships
    MR. BELLAIRS: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what cases of claims for compensation for capture or sinking of British ships by Russian vessels in the recent war are still awaiting settlement.
    THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (Sir EDWARD GREY, Northumberland, Berwick): The cases under consideration are these of the "Allanton," "Ardovar," "Calchas," "Cilurnum," "Hipsang," "Ikhona," "Knight Commander," "Malacca," "Oldhamia," and "St. Kilda." The Russian Government have throughout maintained, and still maintain, that all cases of compensation in connection with the seizure or sinking of neutral vessels must be considered by a Prize Court, and they have declined to consider claims presented through the diplomatic channel. These cases are either still under consideration, or are actually sub judice, and I am therefore unable to make any further statement on the subject at present. I may, however, add that as regards the vessels which were sunk and were not taken in for adjudication, His Majesty's Government have from the outset reserved their right to press for compensation, irrespective of what the Prize Court's decision may be.

    Congo Free State—British Missionaries on the Upper Lomako River.
    MR. CATHCART WASON: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether His Majesty's Government has been informed that a party of British missionaries travelling on the Upper Lomako River, in the Congo Free State, in January last, were summoned to retire instantly by the
    644
    agent of the A.B.I.R, Company at Lingundo, on pain of being prosecuted for trespass; and whether His Majesty's Government will ensure that the rights of British subjects to travel in the Congo territories shall no longer be infringed.
    SIR EDWARD GREY: My attention has been called to this matter, and His Majesty's Minister at Brussels will be instructed to request that a full inquiry may be made into the circumstances.

    Hygiene and Temperance in Foreign Schools.
    MR. CHARLES ROBERTS: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he can supply a Return showing what provision is made for the teaching of hygiene and temperance in the public elementary schools, and for training teachers in these subjects, in Sweden, Denmark, and the United States of America.
    SIR EDWARD GREY: His Majesty's representatives will be requested to supply this information.

    Liquor Laws in the United States.
    MR. CHARLES ROBERTS: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he will instruct the British Legation at Washington to furnish such a Report as to Liquor Laws Legislation in the United States as will bring up to date the information contained in previous Foreign Office Reports on that subject in 1888, 1890, and 1894. (Miscellaneous Series, Nos. 78, 154, and 324).
    SIR EDWARD GREY: Instructions will be given to furnish a Report such as my hon. friend desires.

    Chinese Customs.
    MR. H. H. MARKS: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he has received any explanation from His Majesty's Charge d'Affaires at Pekin of the Chinese Imperial edict of May 9th appointing Tieh-liang Superintendent of Customs; and if he can state whether that appointment introduces any and, if any, what alteration in regard to the functions exercised by Sir Robert Hart as Inspector-General of the Imperial Maritime Customs.
    SIR EDWARD GREY: We have received a reply from the Chinese Government, in which they maintain that the recent appointment of an Administrator General is a matter appertaining to the internal government of China, and that they are within their rights in giving him control over the Customs service. They disclaim any intention of not adhering to the Loan Agreements of 1896 and 1898, which stipulate that during their currency the administration of the Chinese Imperial Maritime Customs is to remain as at present constituted.
    MR. H. H. MARKS: May I ask whether by reason of this Edict 1,500 Europeans employed in the Chinese Customs Service recently under the control of Sir Robert Hart have now been transferred to the control of a Chinese official?
    SIR EDWARD GREY: It does not appear that Sir Robert Hart's position is affected in any way.

    The New Hebrides.
    MR HENNIKER HEATON: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether, seeing that the New Hebrides are being depopulated of British colonists owing to adverse trade conditions, brought about by the practical closing of the Australian market, owing to the prohibitive taxes on the importation of coffee and maize, and seeing that the French Government are able to maintain a flourishing community in these same islands by securing for French traders on open market in Noumea, and by the grant of subsidies and bounties, His Majesty's Government are taking any steps with a view to safeguarding British interests in the New Hebrides, having in view, not only their commercial potentialities, but also their strategical value as dominating the Australian trade route of the future through the Panama Canel.
    SIR EDWARD GREY: The Draft Convention respecting the New Hebrides recently drawn up by an Anglo-French Commission is intended to make an equitable settlement between British and French interests in these islands. His Majesty's Government are now awaiting the observations of the Australian and New Zealand Governments on this proposal. The attention of the Common-
    646
    wealth Government has been more than once drawn to the effect of their tariff on British interests in the New Hebrides.

    Juvenile Smokers.
    DR. MACNAMARA: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Homo Department whether his attention has been called to the unanimous recommendation of the Physical Deterioration (1904) Committee to the effect that legislation should be introduced for the purpose of dealing with the evils of juvenile smoking; and whether he will suggest to the Prime Minister the desirableness of appointing a Select Committee to consider how best effect may be given to this recommendation.
    THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE HOME DEPARTMENT (Mr. GLAD-STONE, Leeds, W.): Bills on this subject have been introduced both in this House and in another place. If either Bill is read a second time there would be no objection on the part of the Government to its being referred to a Select Committee.
    DR. MACNAMARA: Is it necessary the Bill should be read a second time before this step is taken?
    Mr. GLADSTONE: Yes.

    Management of Lunatic Asylums.
    MR. JAMES O'CONNOR: On behalf of the hon. Member for East Wicklow, I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether the secretaries and accountants of the public lunatic asylums in England, Scotland, and Wales are directly responsible to their several committees of management for the due performance of their duties, or to the resident medical superintendent; and if ho alone is responsible to the committee and exercises, complete control over these officers under his committee.
    MR. GLADSTONE: There are no secretaries or accountants in public asylums in England and Wales. The officers who deal with the supply and distribution of stores, the keeping of certain books and documents, and of the accounts of receipt and expenditure, are (1) the clerk and steward, the two offices being almost invariably held by the same person; and (2) an outside

    647
    independent auditor. The former being resident is visually subordinate and immediately responsible to the medical superintendent, who has paramount authority in the asylum subject to the supreme control of the committee of management, statutorily called the visiting committee; the latter is responsible, and reports to the visiting committee alone. The clerk of the asylum is entrusted by statute with the keeping of accounts, books, and documents, in respect of which he is therefore directly responsible to the visiting committee. As regards Scotland, clerks and treasurers of district lunacy boards are naturally solely responsible to these boards.

    Pentonville Prison.
    MR. CLAUDE HAY: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether the increased number of receptions at Pentonville Prison has resulted in the overcrowding of that prison, and the removal therefrom of prisoners to country prisons necessitating the absence of many officers from Pentonville Prison.
    MR. GLADSTONE: There has been a great increase in the number of receptions, but overcrowding has been prevented by the removal of prisoners to country prisons. The staff provided for the prison allows a reasonable margin of officers for escort duty.
    MR. CLAUDE HAY: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will state the number of prisoners received at Pontonville Prison for the years ending March 31st, 1901, 1902, 1903, 1904, 1905, and 1906; and whether there has been any increase of the staff of Pentonville Prison.
    MR. GLADSTONE: The number of receptions has increased steadily from 12,314 in the year ending March 31st, 1901, to 18,746 in the year ending March 31st last, but this increase has been met by removals lo country prisons; and the increase in the population of the prison has been very slight. The daily average population in the year ending March 31st, 1901, was 1,059, and in the year ending March 31st last was 1,087, an increase of only twenty-eight prisoners. No increase of staff has been required.

    Prison Warders' Duties.
    MR. CLAUDE HAY: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will suite whether the separation of the star class, of the second division, and of juvenile adults from other prisoners throws heavier work upon the prison officers.
    MR. GLADSTONE: The improved classification of prisoners no doubt entails greater care and exactitude in the work of prison administration; but there is nothing in it that can in any way affect the hours of duty of prison warders.

    Threatened Invasion of Russian Jews.
    MR. CLAUDE HAY: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he has any official information showing that arrangements are now being made by emigration agents at Libau for the shipment to England during the coming summer of 80,000 Russian Jews and others in a manner and under conditions designed to evade the Aliens Act, and that steamers of the Lassman Line have been chartered to run between Libau and the English ports for this purpose; and, if not, whether he will cause inquiries to be made by His Majesty's Consul at Libau on the subject, with a view of informing Parliament.
    MR. GLADSTONE: I have in my possession a Report from the British Consul at Libau to the effect that emigration from the Baltic Provinces promises this year to be on a large scale, and I understand that shipping companies are making arrangements accordingly. A large proportion, no doubt, of the passengers will be proceeding to destinations beyond the United Kingdom. The total numbers can at present be but a matter for speculation; and I do not clearly gather what the arrangements for evading the Aliens Act which the hon. Member has in mind can be. I will take care that the matter is closely watched so that any evasion will not escape observation.

    Case of Madame D Angely.
    MR. ASHLEY: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether, in view of the fact that Mr. Denman acquitted Madame D'Angely and Sub-Divisional Inspector Mackay stated in evidence that he had made every possible inquiry,

    649
    with the result that ho found Monsieur and Madame D'Angely bore high characters for respectability, he will direct that an apology be now tendered to Madame D'Angely for the treatment to which she has been subjected; or whether it is proposed, in spite of the above facts, that the charges made by the police are to be repeated before the Commission.
    MR. GLADSTONE: I am not in a position to admit the accuracy of the statements contained in the Question. The matter is one which I must leave to be dealt with by the Royal Commission about to be appointed.
    MR. ASHLEY: Did not the magistrate acquit Madame D'Angely, and did not the inspector state that she was a lady of the greatest respectability?
    MR. GLADSTONE: All these facts will arise before the Royal Commission appointed to examine into the case.
    MR. ASHLEY: Is this lady to wait months for an apology?
    LORD BALCARRES: Is the responsibility of offering an apology to this lady to be diverted from the Home Office to the Royal Commission?
    MR. GLADSTONE: I take full responsibility for the whole, of my actions.
    LORD R. CECIL: Will the Home Secretary take care to have inserted in the Bill conferring powers on this Commission provisions empowering and requiring them to make a preliminary Report on this and the other cases?
    MR. GLADSTONE: That is a matter for the Commission to decide. ["No, no."] I may say that if the noble Lord likes to raise the point when the Bill to appoint the Royal Commission is brought in he can do so.
    MR. SLOAN: May I ask, is there any reason why the police should be excused from the common obligation which rests on all people who blunder?
    MR. GLADSTONE: That is a question for the Commission. That is a matter
    650
    which concerns many people, many inquiries, and many Reports, and the whole of the circumstances will be under the review of the Royal Commission. At present I am unable to make any statement on the subject.
    MR. SLOAN: Is it a question for the Commission whether an apology is due to this lady or not?
    Mr. GLADSTONE: When the Commission reports the hon. Member will see.
    MR. VINCENT KENNEDY: Are the three police constables who are implicated in this case still in the service?
    MR. GLADSTONE: Yes, Sir.
    LORD R. CECIL: And still on duty in Regent Street?
    MR. GLADSTONE: I am unable absolutely to say that, but I assume they are.

    Cumulative Sentences.
    MR. SWIFT MACNEILL: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he is aware that a convict named George Gray is now undergoing the eighteenth year of imprisonment, having been found guilty on an indictment containing four counts and having been sentenced by the late Mr. Justice Stephen to a total of twenty-nine years penal servitude, the several sentences running consecutively, not concurrently, and being accordingly in their cumulative effect more severe than a life sentence; is there any, and, if so, what legal limit to the number of years to which a convict may be thus sentenced when there are a number of counts; and whether, having regard to the number of years this man has been imprisoned, he will recommend a remission of the remainder of the sentence and say whether it is the intention of the Government to introduce legislation for the purpose of defining and limiting the power of inflicting cumulative or consecutive sentences.
    MR. GLADSTONE: The cumulative sentences passed upon this convict amount to twenty-nine years: but this is in no way more severe than the sentence of

    651
    penal servitude for life which has sometimes been imposed in similar cases. As in the case of life sentences, the question of release will be considered when he has served twenty years: but I can hold out no hope of earlier release. The case is exceptional both as regards the gravity of the crimes and the nature of the sentence, and I do not think that there is anything connected with it which suggests the need for any alteration in the law.

    The Shipwreck of the "Courier."
    SIR W. J. COLLINS: I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade whether his attention has been called to the shipwreck of the "Courier" off Guernsey on April 30th, which resulted in the loss of several lives; whether he proposes to hold a public inquiry into the circumstances attending the disaster; whether the navigation laws in the Channel Islands differ from these administered by the Board of Trade; and, if so, whether he will take steps to secure that they shall be amended so as to accord with these obtaining in the United Kingdom.
    THE PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD OF TRADE (Mr. LLOYD-GEORGE, Carnarvon Boroughs): My attention has been called to the shipwreck of the "Courier," and I have communicated on the subject with the Home Office who have jurisdiction in such a matter, and I am informed that they have made representations to the Lieutenant-Governor of Guernsey as to the desirability of strict inquiry being held. The inquiry incidental to the inquest is proceeding in the island before the Royal Court. The laws relating to navigation in the Channel Islands differ in some respects from the Imperial Merchant Shipping Act, and if on the conclusion of the present inquiries in Guernsey it appears that any amendment is necessary the matter shall receive consideration.

    Royal Commission on Coast Erosion.
    MR. HALPIN: I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury whether the Royal Commission to be appointed shortly to inquire into the defence of the coast from sea erosion will examine witnesses who have a thorough knowledge of the subject in reference to the Rivers Shannon and Fergus.
    MR. LLOYD-GEORGE: I have no reason to doubt that the Royal Commission will take all the evidence necessary to enable them to report on the question referred to them.
    MR. O'SHAUGHNESSY: Will an Irish Member be appointed on this Commission?
    MR. LLOYD-GEORGE: Certainly.

    Vaccination.
    MR. LUPTON: I beg to ask the President of the Local Government Board if his attention has been called to the inquest held on May 14th in the Tooting Vestry Hall on the body of Blanche Mabel Reed, killed by vaccination, and to the statement of Dr. Samuel Edmund Bligh, of High. Street, Tooting, that the vaccination was abnormal, and now and then you get a case, and that the lymph he used was supplied from the National Vaccine Establishment; and if, considering the frequency of such cases leading to serious illness or death, he will stop the issue of matter from the National Vaccine Establishment until some harmless mixture has been discovered.
    THE PRESIDENT OF THE LOCAL GOVERNMENT BOARD (Mr. JOHN BURNS, Battersea): I have seen a newspaper report of the inquest and have caused some inquiry to be made as to the matter. I do not understand that there was any evidence to show that the death was caused by vaccination. The post mortem examination proved that the child died from broncho-pneumonia. I also understand that Dr. Bligh, in the statements referred to in the Question, meant that he regarded the case as abnormal in so far as there was delay in the healing of the arm, and that now and then a case arises where there is delay of this kind owing to accidental causes. I am not aware that it is the fact that cases of serious illness or death frequently result from vaccination from the lymph supplied from the National Vaccine Establishment, and I could not take any such action as that suggested.

    School Funds.
    MR. GEORGE WHITE: I beg to ask the President of the Board of Education whether he can state

    653
    approximately the balances held by the treasurers of the denominational schools of England and Wales, or the Diocesan Schools Societies on their behalf, when the schools were transferred to the educational authorities under the Act of 1902; and whether these balances were not all derived from public funds.
    THE PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD OF EDUCATION (Mr. BIRRELL, Bristol, N.): I have no information as to the amount of the balances in question. They would consist of balance of income from all sources, including fees, if any, income from endowment, if any, and voluntary subscriptions, as well as Parliamentary grants.

    Married Teachers.
    MR. ASHLEY: I beg to ask the President of the Board of Education what would be the effect of Clause 34 of the Education Bill in districts in which the local education authority has passed a resolution forbidding the employment of married teachers; and whether the undertaking contemplated by the clause will operate as an undertaking by the student not to marry during a period of seven years after his training is completed.
    MR. BIRRELL: It is impossible to discuss satisfactorily the details of the Bill in a reply to a Question. There will be an opportunity for discussing the point in the Committee stage of the Bill.

    Banqueting House, Whitehall.
    MAJOR ANSTRUTHER-GRAY: I beg to ask the First Commissioner of Works whether his attention has been called to the state of the ceiling, painted by Rubens, in the Banqueting House, Whitehall; and whether he can see his way to have it cleaned.
    THE FIRST COMMISSIONER OF WORKS (Mr. HARCOURT, Lancashire, Rossendale): I have received very satisfactory reports from exports as to the general condition of the painted ceiling; but it undoubtedly wants cleaning and a renewal of the varnish, which I hope to
    654
    be able to do at no distant date, though it may not be this year.

    The Mall Improvement.
    MR. CLAUDE HAY: I beg to ask the First Commissioner of Works when it is proposed to demolish Nos. 53, 54, and 55, Charing Cross, and Nos. 15 and 17, Spring Gardens, in order to complete the opening of the Mall to Charing Cross.
    MR. HARCOURT: Nos. 53 and 54 Charing Cross have already been demolished. The remaining houses mentioned in the hon. Member's Question are not the property of His Majesty's Government, and we do not, therefore, propose to demolish them.

    Abstractors' Pensions.
    MR. SNOWDEN: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury if members of the senior abstractor grade, who have served as writers or copyists for eighteen years or more before August, 1889, are allowed to count their whole service for pension, and that the abstractors of seventeen years service before that date, and appointed under precisely similar conditions, are allowed to count only eight and a half years; and, if so, whether he will see that the regulations governing abstractors' pensions are amended so as to adjust this difference of treatment of members of the same class of His Majesty's Civil Service.
    THE FINANCIAL SECRETARY OF THE TREASURY (Mr. MCKENNA, Monmouthshire, N.): My predecessor answered a similar Question on February 24th, 1904.† I cannot do better than quote his words. The right hon. Gentleman said, "The rule which has been in force for the last fifteen years is that copyists or writers placed on the permanent establishment are allowed to count one-half of their previous service for pension. It is true that, under a special concession made many years ago, writers employed before August 19th, 1871, and afterwards, without interruption of service, transferred to the establishment, are allowed to reckon their whole service for pension; but I see no sufficient ground for extending this concession to other cases than these which it was intended to meet."
    † See (4) Debates, cxxx., 837.

    Poor Law Administration in Scotland.
    MAJOR ANSTRUTHER-GRAY: I beg to ask the Secretary for Scotland whether it is intended to introduce any legislation to give effect to the recommendations of the Departmental Committee on Poor Law Medical Relief and the Management of Poor Houses in Scotland.
    THE SECRETARY FOR SCOTLAND (Mr. SINCLAIR, Forfarshire): The question is under consideration, but legislation does not seem possible at present.

    Scottish Educational Grants.
    MAJOR ANSTRUTHER-GRAY: I beg to ask the Secretary for Scotland whether the residue grant, allotted in almost all cases to the promotion of technical education, is steadily diminishing, with results detrimental to the spread of such education; and, if so, whether steps can be taken to put the contribution made for this purpose from the Imperial funds on a more stable basis.
    MR SINCLAIR: The residue grant under Section 2 (iii) of the Act of 1890 has diminished as stated by the hon. Member. On the other hand, the equivalent grant under Section 2 (5) of the Act of 1892 has been steadily increasing, and it is in the power of the local authority, with the sanction of the Secretary for Scotland, to apply part of this sum, as to a purpose of public utility, in making good the deficiency in the contribution towards technical education from the residue grant. This is, in point of fact, done y several local authorities.

    Relief of Irish Taxation.
    MR. THOMAS O'DONNELL: I beg to ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer what is the amount of the accumulated balance of local taxation under Section 58 of The Local Government (Ireland) Act, 1898; and whether it is proposed to use this balance for the relief of baronies paying high charges for railway guarantees by paying all the charges over sixpence in the £.
    THE ATTORNEY - GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. CHERRY, Liverpool, Exchange): The accumulated balance, now in an interest-bearing deposit account in the Bank of Ireland, amounts to
    656
    £75,320. I may remind the hon. Member that the Local Taxation Account already provides relief to local areas in respect of railway and harbour charges. Under Sub-section of the section quoted in the Question, one-half of the excess of such charges over sixpence in the £ of the rateable value is paid out of the Local Taxation Account. It is not proposed to apply the accumulated balance in further relief of these charges as suggested.

    Judicial Funds in Ireland.
    MR. THEMAS O'DONNELL: I beg to ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer what is the total amount of securities held by the Supreme Court of Judicature in Ireland in respect of funds of suitors, etc.; and what is the amount of money invested in Irish securities.
    THE FINANCIAL SECRETARY TO THE TREASURY (Mr. MCKENNA, Mon-mouth, N.): The total amount of securities so held, exclusive of life annuities, securities in foreign currencies and boxes of plate and valuables, was on May 14th, 1906, £5,471,456 2s. 8d. The hon. Member will find the information asked for the second part of his Question in the Supreme Court of Judicature (Ireland) Account which has boon presented to this House (No. 47 of 1906).

    Irish Estates Commissioners' Procedure.
    MR. GINNELL: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he will state what is the practice of the Estates Commissioners when an estate comes before them, mainly agricultural or pastoral, but comprising a town or village inadequately provided with land, and also untenanted land adjacent thereto; and whether the Estates Commissioners can and will prevent the sale of such an estate except in its entirety, omitting demesne.
    MR. CHERRY (for Mr. BRYCE): The Estates Commissioners inform me that their practice, in such cases as are referred to, is to take into consideration the wants and circumstances of the occupiers of town or village holdings, and to deal with the properties on which town or village holdings are situate,

    657
    having regard to the considerations set forth in the Regulations of 13th February last.
    MR. GINNELL: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland do the Estates Commissioners, before sanctioning sales of estates or of holdings subject to Board of Works charges, ascertain whether these are to be discharged out of the purchase money; and, if not, whether the purchasers have been informed that the charges will continue in addition to the annuities; and will it misapprehension on this point at the time of signing the agreement entitle the Commissioners to revise the price within the zones or without.
    MR. CHERRY: I am informed by the Estates Commissioners that loans made by the Board of Works on the security of the vendor's interest in the lands are redeemed out of the purchase money. A Board of Works' charge on the tenant's interest only remains a charge on the lands, and the purchaser continues liable for the periodic payment in respect thereof. Maintenance rates which are struck at stated periods continue to affect the holding after purchase. If the Commissioners have reason to believe that the purchaser is under any misapprehension as to his future liability to such charges, inquiries are made. If the Commissioners are satisfied that either party has entered into an agreement under a mistake, they can refuse to act on the agreement.

    The Royal Canal.
    MR. GINNELL: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland if he will explain why the Board of Control of the Royal Canal have not since 1895 insisted upon the works of restoration and repair then reported by the Board of Trade inspector to be necessary; will the shallowness of the water render traffic on the canal impossible while the repairs are being executed; if so, has any guarantee been obtained from the Midland Railway Company limiting that time; has that company been required to make any arrangement with traders and boatmen in respect of loss; and has any inspection been made as to whether the waste of water occasioned by the neglect and by the repairs will so lower
    658
    the level of Lough Owel as to endanger the water supply of Mullingar.
    MR. CHERRY: I beg to refer the hon. and learned Member to the reply which I gave to his Question on this subject on Tuesday.† Certain legal matters of some difficulty are under consideration, and I would ask that Questions on the subject may be deferred for the present.
    MR. GINNELL: May I ask how long, in view of the urgency of the matter and the danger to health?
    MR. CHERRY: A few days—say next Tuesday.

    Lord Belmore's Tyrone Estate.
    MR. MURNAGHAN: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that the Estates Commissioners have accepted the proposals of a minority of tenants on Lord Belmore's county Tyrone property to buy at twenty-six and a quarter years purchase, and declared as an estate a moiety of the property consisting of portions of some ton townlands and plots of turbary on these and other adjoining townlands despite the protests of the majority of tenants on the property; whether he is aware that at present the Estates Commissioners are collecting half-yearly interest from the few isolated tenants who have accepted the price already stated and signed agreements therefor; and whether, in view of the effect of these prices upon the tenants desirous of purchasing on reasonable terms, and to preserve freedom of contract and to prevent the turbary being unfairly allotted or disposed of to outsiders to the injury of agricultural and town tenants who have a just claim to the turbary, the Estates Commissioners are prepared to use their good offices to bring about the sale at a fair price of the entire estate either directly to the tenants or through the Commissioners themselves accompanied by equitable distribution of turbary.
    MR. CHERRY: The Estates Commissioners inform me that two originating applications in respect of the sale of the Belmore estate were lodged with them on January 3rd, 1905, and April 19th,
    † See col. 347.

    659
    1906, respectively, and each of these applications contains a statement that the owner will provide plots of turbary for the purchasing tenants. The applications have not yet come before the Commissioners for consideration, nor have they yet declared any of the lands to be an "estate." Interest in lieu of rent is, pursuant to Section 35 of the Act of 1896, collected in the case of all purchase agreements lodged with the Land Commission, but such collection of interest is independent of any orders the Commissioners may subsequently make on the question of declaring the lands to be an "estate." The Commissioners are not aware of the terms on which the owner is negotiating the sale of this estate, and have not boon asked by the parties to intervene with a view of settling any difference between them. The case will come before the Commissioners at an early date for the purpose of considering the question of declaring the property to be an estate.

    South Cork Railways and Industries.
    MR.EDAVAED BARRY: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he has received resolutions recently passed at meetings in South Cork in favour of local railway extension, and dealing with the fishing industry in Glandore Union Hall and other southern districts; whether his attention has been called to the practically undeveloped resources of the Benduff slate quarry for want of railway connection; and whether, seeing that Rosscarbery is the most important town in the South of Ireland without such connection, he will make inquiries as to how far the undeveloped resources of the district, as regards fish and minerals, would be promoted by railway extension from Clonakilty to Rosscarbery and thence to Glandore.
    MR. CHERRY: I have received the resolutions referred to. I am informed that Glandore is a good fishing harbour, but Rosscarbery is not so good; and if Glandore Harbour were to be brought into connection with the Cork, Bandon, and South Coast Railway the question would arise whether connection should not be made with the main line at or near Skibbereen rather than with the light railway at Clonakilty. As regards the
    660
    slate quarrying industry in the Rosscarbery district, it is understood by the Department of Agriculture that there is at present a depression in the slate quarrying trade throughout the United Kingdom, partly due, it is supposed, to the condition of the building trade; and it may be doubted whether the proposed railway extension would place these quarries in a position to compete successively with other slate producing areas. The subject of railway extension will be duly considered should there be a prospect of obtaining funds for the purpose.

    Maryborough Assault Case.
    MR. DELANY: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that in the assault case of Michael Rafter versus Cathirn Brooks, heard at the Maryborough Petty Sessions on the 1st instant, Mr. Vesey Fitzgerald, R.M., adjudicated, Although objected to by the solicitor for defendant on the ground that he expressed opinions strongly against his client previously to the case coming before the Court; and whether in view of the influence exercised by Mr. Fitzgerald upon other members of the bench to.secure a conviction, he will say what course he proposes taking under the circumstances.
    MR. CHERRY: The action of magistrates in their judicial capacity is entirely outside the control of the executive Government. I may, however, state that I have thought it right to refer the Question to Mr. Fitzgerald for any observations which he might think fit to offer, and that gentleman informs me that there is absolutely no foundation for the suggestion that he had expressed opinions against the defendant in the case referred to before the case came into Court.

    Case of Mrs. Brooks.
    MR. DELANY: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that at the Maryborough Petty Sessions, hold on the 1st instant, Mrs. Brooks, wife of an evicted tenant on the M'Neale estate at Clonkeen, was fined 10s. and costs for an alleged assault, or in default seven days imprisonment with hard labour, and after termination of the above was ordered to find bail for good behaviour herself in £20,

    661
    and two sureties in £10 each, otherwise to remain in prison for a further period of six months; and whether, seeing that Mrs. Brooks is a woman of sixty-five years of age, in delicate health, with a family of ten children, and being unable to pay the fine or obtain bail has gone to prison, he will say what steps he proposes taking in this case in view of the character of the evidence for the prosecution.
    MR. CHEERY: I am informed by the police authorities that the facts are substantially as stated in the Question, save that Mrs. Brooks is not as old as she is represented to be, and is, I am happy to say, in fairly good health. She refused to pay the line and was conveyed to prison, but after spending two days in prison she telegraphed to her friends to pay the fine and procure the necessary sureties. This was done, and Mrs. Brooks was thereupon liberated.

    Ballyhindon Estate, Fermoy.
    MR. WILLIAM ABRAHAM: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland if he can state whether agreements to purchase their holdings have been received by the Estate Commissioners from throe judicial tenants on the Ballyhindon estate of the Hon. Mrs. A. Pennington, Fermoy, county Cork, and if the terms agreed upon amount to twenty-two years purchase of first-term rents, which rents average 20 per cent, under the Poor Law valuation; whether he is aware that there are two other future tenants on this estate, who rents average 20 per cent. above the valuation, who have also offered to buy their holdings at twenty-two years purchase of judicial rents or rents to be fixed by arbitration, or upon such terms as the Estates Commissioners may fix, and that this offer has been refused and these tenants warned that if they will not buy on the terms of twenty-two years purchase of rents 20 per cent, over the valuation the landlord will demand later on twenty-four years purchase of these same rents; and what action will the Estates Commissioners take in this matter.
    MR. CHEERY: The Estates Commissioners inform me that no agreements for purchase in this case have been lodged with them and no proceedings for the
    662
    sale of the estate are pending before them. I would remind the hon. Member that under the regulations of February last the Commissioners have power to intervene as conciliators in such a case as the Question describes. Their aid, however, does not appear to have been invoked by either of the parties.

    Armagh Direct Labour Schemes.
    MR. MCKILLOP: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that on two occasions during the past two years the schemes of direct labour adopted by the Armagh County Council fell through; that, in consequence, proposals had to be brought before the Crosmaglen and other district councils in the county for consideration with the sanction of the county surveyor, and that these proposals were afterward rejected by the Armagh County Council at their meeting held on March 14th last; and whether, in view of the breakdown of the direct labour scheme in Armagh and the additional cost to the ratepayers which is entailed whilst in operation, steps will be taken by the Local Government Board to give effect to the wishes of the various district councils of the county who are all in favour of contract labour.
    MR. CHEERY: The Local Government Board are aware that on two occasions during the past two years the direct labour scheme of the county council could not be put in operation owing to informalities in procedure. The county council at their mooting on March 14th referred back for modification certain proposals of rural district councils to maintain by contract, for considerable periods, roads proposed to be included in the direct labour scheme. No formal direct labour scheme in pursuance of the Procedure of Councils Order has ever been in operation in county Armagh, but the county council have arranged to hold a special meeting for the purpose of adopting a final declaration and scheme. If the scheme should be passed it will be open to any rural district council to appeal to the Board against it, whereupon the Board will make careful inquiry into the grounds of complaint. If, however, the scheme should not be finally adopted, the roads will be maintained as usual by contract without any steps being taken by the Board in the matter.
    MR. JOYCE: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that where direct labour is in operation the work is better done and the roads much better kept than is the case by contract?
    MR. CHEERY: I have no personal knowledge, but I have no doubt the hon. Member's statement is correct.

    Mr. Corboy's Leitrin Property.
    MR. O'DOWD: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that Mr. Corboy, of Elden Lodge, Manor-hamilton, county Leitrin, has sold to his tenants in Annaghcarty and Drum-shunnagh, in the neighbourhood of Riverstown, county Sligo; that this sale took place in February 1905, the tenants signing the necessary legal agreements; and that instead of completing the sale Mr. Corboy sent his tenants civil bills on two occasions within the one year for one and a half years' rent, which amounts they have had to pay; and whether steps will be taken to have this sale sanctioned by the Estates Commissioners, so that these tenants may in future be saved from further proceedings and expense.
    MR. CHERRY: The Estates Commissioners inform me that no proceedings in respect of the sale of this estate have come before them, and that they have no information as to the matters referred to in the Question.

    Waste Lands in County Sligo.
    MR. O'DOWD: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord - Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that in the parishes of Greenagh and Riverstown, in the county of Sligo, there are 1,200 acres of waste land, most of which is let on the eleven months' system to non-residential graziers; and, if so, what steps, if any, the Estates Commissioners are prepared to take so that these wastes may be utilised for the enlargement of the many small holdings in the district.
    MR. CHERRY: The Estates Commissioners are unable to identify the lands referred to in the Question; but if the name of the owner or agent of the estate is supplied to them, they will inquire into the matter.

    Sligo and the Irish Seed Loan.
    MR. O'DOWD: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether the grant of £10,000, recently given by the Department of Agriculture in Ireland in connection with the Irish seed loan was intended to go in relief of repayment of interest on that loan; and, if so, will he say what are the several amounts allocated to the unions of Sligo, Tubbercurry, Boyle (No. 2), and Dromore West, in the county of Sligo, out of that grant.
    MR. CHERRY: The grant of the Department of Agriculture was made for the purpose of reducing the cost of seed obtained under the scheme of the Local Government Board, such cost comprising all expenses chargeable upon the unions in connection with the loans advanced for the purchase and distribution of potatoes. The amount allocated to Sligo union was £211 17s. 2d.; Tober-curry union, £33 9s. 2d.; Dromore West union, £28 6s. 10d.; and Boyle union, £175 0s. 8d. No separate allocation of the grant was made in respect of the portion of Boyle union in the county Sligo.

    Mr. Beamish's Clonakilty Estate.
    MR. EDWARD BARRY: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether arrangements are yet complete for the sale of the estate of Mr. William Beamish, Muckross, Clonakilty; whether he is aware that a tenant on the estate named Daniel O'Leary, of Douneen, was evicted for non-payment of one and a half year's rent (including hanging gale), the rent being double the Government valuation; and whether, seeing the farm has since remained in the hands of the landlord, and that O'Leary has returned from America to claim reinstatement, steps will be taken by the Estates Commissioners to inquire from Mr. Beamish whether he will allow O'Leary to sign as purchasing-tenant for this farm, and, in case he should refuse to do so, whether the Estates Commissioners will refuse to declare the Beamish property an estate for the purpose of sale.
    MR. CHERRY: The Estates Commissioners inform me that they have

    665
    received from Daniel O'Leary an application for reinstatement on the estate referred to, and have referred the application to one of their inspectors for inquiry and report.

    Hungerford and Clorah Estate, County Cork.
    MR. FLYNN: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether the Estates Commissioners have yet sent an inspector to visit the Hungerford and Clorah estate near Kingwilliamstown, county Cork; are the Commissioners aware that pressure to sign a purchase agreement has been brought to bear by the landlord's agent on Denis Breen, the present occupant of two evicted farms, in the shape of a threat to issue a. writ for one and a half years' arrears of rent if he does not sign before a date in the near future, with a view to exclude the two evicted tenants from the scheme of purchase; and whether the Commissioners will instruct their inspector to make the fullest inquiry into the circumstances connected with this alleged illegitimate pressure.
    MR. CHERRY: The Estates Commissioners inform me that they have no information as to the pressure stated to have been brought to bear upon Denis Breen, but they will call their inspector's attention to the allegations made in the Question in order that he may inquire into the matter.
    MR. FLYNN: If I send information substantiating the statements in the Question will the Commissioner take immediate action?
    MR. CHEERY: I am sure the Commissioners will act as soon as possible.

    Trinity College, Dublin.
    MR. MACVEAGH: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether ho can state the number of Catholics and non-Catholics, respectively, appointed to professorships, assistant or deputy professorships, public readerships, prelector-ships, lectureships, assistant lectureships, provostships, vice provostships, and senior fellowships, in Trinity College, Dublin, since the passing of the Act of 1873 to abolish tests in that institution. I beg
    666
    also to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he can state what professorships in Trinity College, Dublin, are endowed from the Erasmus Smith estates; whether, as the Trinity College Tests Act of 1873 applied to these professorships, he can state if religious tests are still in effect applied in such appointments; whether the governors of the Erasmus Smith schools, in administering the trust to propagate the Protestant faith and frustrate the Popish schools, control the appointments to these professorships; whether the Erasmus Smith scholarships and exhibitions are reserved to Protestants, and preference given by statute to such scholars and exhibitioners in appointments to Erasmus Smith professorships; and what is the annual value of such professorships, and how many are held by Cathelics.
    MR. CHERRY: The Irish Government have no information in their possession which would enable them to give the particulars asked for in these two Questions. All matters relating to Trinity College will come before the Commission which is to be appointed, and it does not appear to be necessary to anticipate the proceedings of the Commission by seeking to obtain information upon the points raised.
    MR. SWIFT MACNEILL: Cannot the right hon. Gentleman say from his own knowledge if it is not the fact there are only three Catholic Fellows?
    MR. CHEREY: I am aware of it. But the hon. Member is aware that Fellows are appointed by examination.

    Land Purchase Act and Mining Bights.
    MR. SHEEHY: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland if a decision has yet been come to to enable the Estates Commissioners to sell or lease the mineral rights in the properties purchased under the Land Purchase Act of 1903 which are vested in them; if so, what course he intends taking as will permit the working of mines now vested in the Commissioners; and, if he has not yet come to any decision, when is he likely to do so?
    MR. CHEERY: I am not yet in a position to add anything to the reply

    667
    which I gave to the hon. Member's similar Question on the 4th April, t The matter is now receiving the consideration which its importance well deserves.
    MR. SHEEHY: How long will the Law Officers be in dealing with this Question?
    MR. CHERRY: It is not a matter before the Law Officers. It is before the Estates Commissioners.

    Irish Butter Trade.
    MR. THOMAS O'DONNELL: I beg to ask the hon. Member for South Somerset, as representing the President of the Board of Agriculture, what is the value of Irish butter imported into England in the year 1905; and what is the value of Danish butter imported in the same year.
    MR. J. A. PEASE (ESSOX, Saffron Waldon, for Sir EDWARD STRACHEY): No information is available to show the aggregate value of the butter imported into this country from Ireland. The value of the Danish butter imported in 1905 was £8,900,000.
    MR. O'SHAUGHNESSY: Why can the figures be given for Danish and not these for Irish butter?
    MR. J. A. PEASE: I understand there are no returns collected as to Irish butter.
    MR. THOMAS O'DONNELL: Will the hon. Gentleman inquire of the Department of Agriculture if the information can be obtained?
    MR. J. A. PEASE: I will see if it can be done.

    SELECTION (STANDING COMMITTEES.)
    Sir WILLIAM BRAMPTON GURDON reported from the Committee of Selection; That they had discharged the following Member from the Standing Committee on Trade (including Agriculture and Fishing), Shipping and Manufactures, in respect of the Merchant Shipping Acts Amendment (No. 2) Bill:—Mr.
    † See (4) Debates, civ., 511.
    668
    James Stuart; and had appointed in substitution: Mr. Wilkie.
    Report to lie upon the Table.

NEW BILLS.
  SALE OF INTOXICATING LIQUORS ON SUNDAY BILL.
  " To prohibit the sale of Intoxicating Liquors on Sunday," presented by Mr. Perks; supported by Mr. Cameron Corbett, Mr. Whittaker, Mr. John Wilson, Mr. Fenwick, Mr. Spicer, Mr. Nicholls, Mr. White, Mr. Maclean, Mr. Shackleton, and Mr. Burt; to be read a second time upon Tuesday, 19th June, and to be printed. [Bill 216.]
  IRISH EDUCATION (AFFLICTED CHILDREN) BILL.
  " To make better provision for the Elementary Education of Afflicted Children in Ireland,' presented by Mr. Bryce; supported by Mr. Attorney-General for Ireland; to be read a second time upon Monday next, and to be printed. [Bill 217.]

  SUPPLY [8TH ALLOTTED DAY].
  Considered in Committee.
  (In the Committee.)
  [Mr. EMMOTT (Oldham) in the Chair.]

CIVIL SERVICES AND REVENUE DEPARTMENTS ESTIMATES, 1906–7.

  CLASS I.
  1. Motion made, and Question proposed, "That a sum not exceeding £31,800 be granted to His Majesty to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which wil come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1907, for Houses of Parliament Buildings."
  MR. HAROLD COXasked whether arrangements could be made to allow the public to utilise more largely than at present Westminster Hall. He thought it a great pity that that magnificient hall should be kept in such seclusion and that the public should not have reasonable access to it.
  THE FIRST COMMISSIONER OF WORKS (Mr. HARCOURT, Lancashire, Rossendale)said that he thought the time had come when the regulations which were in operation owing to the unfortunate occurrences of the period between 1881 and 1885 might be moderately relaxed. He had been in communication with the autherities—and they were many—who claimed control over various parts of the building, and he had come to an arrangement with them which would come into operation in a few days. The arrangement was that Westminster Hall should be open from ton till half-past two to all persons who were bona fide sightseers. From half-past two until eleven o'clock p.m. the Hall would be open to all persons with gallery orders, all Parliamentary agents, counsel and their clerks, and to all persons generally who were known to the police. He hoped that arrangement would he satisfactory to the public and not inconvenient to Members. Ho hoped the Committee would allow him to take.as many sub-heads of the Votes of his Department as was possible in the day. There were a number of new buildings which he desired authority to begin; and if the authority were delayed, the most valuable building time of the year would be lost, and he would be unable to expend all the money voted, with the result that he would have at the end of the financial year to surrender a considerable sum which would only go to swell the realised surplus of the Chancellor of the Exchequer. Delay would not damage the Government or give the Opposition any advantage; but it would inconvenience these towns that were waiting for new post-offices and county courts. The Vote for his own salary would be delayed to the end, so that no opportunity for subsequent criticism would be lost.
  MR. CROMBIE*MR. CROMBIE (Kincardineshire) moved to reduce the Vote by £100 as a protest against the proposal to establish smoking in the library. Although he spoke as a non-smoker, he did not wish to pose as a particularly virtuous person. His relations to smoking were simple, like these of the man who said "honesty was the best policy, because he had tried both." He had been a smoker—and for reasons with which he need not trouble the Committee he had given it up. After all, there was
  670
  something to be said for non-smokers. Non-smoking was the natural state of man. They were all born sinners, but none of them were born smokers. Smoking was generally learned by a painful process in early youth. He was sorry to say that smokers in the House had been a very aggressive race. When ho first came to the House smoking was confined to the smoking-room. Then the smokers annexed in turn the ladies' dining-room downstairs and part of the dining-room upstairs; and these unfortunate Members who did not smoke almost felt that it was an act of generosity on the part of the smokers to allow them to dine there. There was, however, one place which they had always found a harbour of refuge, and that was the library of the House. [An HON. MEMBER: And the bar.] Very much as the original Welsh wore driven before the English invasion, the non-smokers had been driven to take refuge in the caves and hills, and it Seemed that now they were to be smoked out from these. Where were the non-smokers to go to? There was only one place left where they could take refuge, and that was the debating Chamber itself. He appealed to the First Commissioner of Works, who, ho knew, was not a cruel man. Was he going to put a respectable class who had done nothing, except that they did not smoke, into the horrible dilemma that either they must be forced to consume the smoke of their colleagues in the library or consume the speeches generated by that smoke in the House itself. They might depend upon it that the wave which had swept over the dining-rooms and the library could not be kept out of the Chamber. Once the practice was established in the library they would very soon see smoking in the Chamber. He had often heard it mooted that it would be an excellent thing to do, and that there were other Parliaments that did it. He believed it was done in America. ["No, no."] Well, in Tibet and Siam. Was the Committee willing to face the horrible contingency of smoking in the House? Let them think what it would be. From every corner of the room would emanate tobacco smoke, and very often, he feared, bad tobacco smoke. If Members were allowed to smoke whilst they were speaking, strangers in the gallery would insist on smoking too. The gentlemen of the Press would likewise insist on smoking whilst they

  671
  reported Members' speeches. Even the formidable grille in front of the Ladies' Gallery, which had proved such a valuable protection to hon. Members in the House, would pour forth tobacco smoke. They had the authority of the late Prime Minister on this point. Two nights ago the right hon. Gentleman had told them that if "a man's a man for a' that," a woman's a woman for a' that. He did not quite know what it meant—but he was perfectly certain it was a philosophic manner of expressing that women who were equal to men were equal to anything. Even in the present pellucid atmosphere of the House it was difficult enough to catch the Speaker's eye. What would it be when that atmosphere was as thick as the atmosphere of a non-provided school under Clause 4? So far as he could understand, the only argument for allowing this thin end of the wedge to be inserted was that certain right hon. and hon. Members could not compose their speeches except under the influence of tobacco—and that as they went to the library to compose their speeches, a portion of it must be set apart for smoking. There were other things besides tobacco that afforded inspiration. Nothing was more curious than to remember some of the things that afforded inspiration to authors. Schiller could not compose a line unless he was eating rotten apples. One of the poets of last century who delighted England and America with his charming verse and his thrilling tales, could never write anything unless he was thoroughly intoxicated. Of course, he knew there was nobody in this House who composed his speeches under the influence of alcohol. Having listened to them he could assure the House that they were marked by great sobriety. But suppose in some future Parliament there should be hon. Gentlemen who required alcoholic inspiration, was the First Commissioner going to set aside part of the library for the consumption of alcoholic liquors, or was he going to establish a library in the bar? Why should they five facilities to hon. Gentlemen to compose speeches? Long speeches were the curse of the House. Conscious as hon. Members were of the inordinate length of one another's speeches, why should they provide a stick for their own backs by giving further facilities to hon. Gentlemen to compose still longer speeches?
  672
  This was, he knew, a Vote for only £120. He was a Scotsman, with all the hereditary economy of his race, but he should be willing to vote £2,000—of the taxpayers' money—for the extension of the smoking accommodation of the House, if it was only to be confined to smoking. He did not know if, as was generally proposed, some of the rooms used by the House of Lords could be annexed; but, without wishing to speak disrepectfully of the other Chamber, he should not oppose the annexation of the whole of "another place" for smoking—provided only that when hon. Gentlemen got it they would confine themselves to these regal premises and not cast an envious ova upon the only little vineyard that remained to these Naboths who did not smoke—the library of the House. He begged to move.
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That Item A. be reduced by £100."— (Mr. Crombie.)
  MR. HARCOURTsaid that until he listened to the speech of the hon. Member he had no idea what a revolutionary proposal ho had made. Let him give the House the history of the matter. Two years ago a private Member got up a memorial to the late Speaker for the extension of smoking to one of the libraries. That was signed by a majority of the House, and the private Member having secured the majority came to the conclusion that he had sufficient signatures. Mr. Speaker Gully, when approached, was not quite sure that he had power to give the permission, to which the private Member replied that in that case he, perhaps, had no power to forbid it. The then Speaker thereupon took up a stronger position and said he did not feel justified in granting permission without a vote of the House, and as that Parliament was nearing its end it was decided to leave the decision of the matter to the new Parliament. In that new Parliament the private Member who had got up the requisition found himself unexpectedly First Commissioner of Works, and he felt bound to try to carry out the wishes of the people whose signatures he had secured. He was met with the old difficulty of getting an expression of opinion except by the ancient method of reducing his own salary, so, setting his wits to work, he

  673
  resorted to the alternative of placing a sum of £120 on the Votes. The matter would be left absolutely to the decision of the: House. There would be no Government; tellers. The only result of passing this vote would be that smoking would be permitted in one out of five libraries. He did not think the non-smokers could complain of having four out of five. The position of the non-smoker in the House was one of absolute power and monopoly of nearly all the accommodation. He did not say that the time might not come when the House in its charity might decide to reserve one or two rooms for non-smokers. This was not a proposal to turn the library into a smoking room. He intended that it should still continue a silent room. There would be no refreshments served, there would be no newspapers, and no change except that whilst I reading or writing in that particular room Members would be allowed to smoke.
  MR. F. E. SMITHsaid he rose to give the Government a little support; and to remind the hon. Member for Kincardineshire that minorities after all must suffer; it was the badge of their tribe. He would venture to tell the hon. Gentleman with the greatest possible respect that he shared the intolerance that was associated with total abstainers against anything agreeable. He would only say, speaking on behalf of these who did smoke and found the present accommodation intolerably restricted, that they, for their part, wished to set the hon. Gentleman an example of toleration in which the hon. Gentleman's speech was conspicuously lacking. If it would in any way contribute to the hon. Gentleman's comfort and leisure in which he could prepare his speeches, he, for one, would offer no opposition to setting apart a room in which he could eat rotten apples as a stimulant before he addressed the House. ["Order."] He was entirely at a loss to conceive why it should be supposed to be insulting or derogatory to the hon. Gentleman's intelligence to suggest that he would need a stimulant which, on his own showing, was frequently resorted to.
  MR. HARWOODsaid he was not going to plead for minorities,
  674
  but for majorities, and that was in regard to the reading-room.
  MR. WILLIAM RUTHERFORD: On a point of order, ought not the subject under discussion to be disposed of first?
  THE CHAIRMAN: I am in the hands of the Committee; but I do think it would be more convenient to dispose of one subject at a time.
  MR. HARWOODsaid he wanted to know whether he would be able to make the proposal later that the room in question should be turned into a reading-room as well as a smoking-room.
  THE CHAIRMAN: I do not think the hon. Gentleman will be precluded from making that suggestion afterwards.
  MR. AKERS-DOUGLASsaid he had the honour of being First Commissioner of Works at one time, and this question was very constantly before him. He fully sympathised with the wish of the majority of the House that there should be more accommodation for smokers, and Although he supported this proposal, he wanted to make a caveat that it was only a make-shift and that smokers were not satisfied with this as a final conclusion. He thought some such scheme as that suggested as a result of the Committee which sat three or four years ago should be carried out, and the Government of which he was then a member would have gone on with the proposal had it not been for the lean years in which they lived.
  MR. WILLIAM REDMONDsaid while he was to some extent moved by the speech of the hon. Gentleman who proposed the reduction, he was obliged to oppose his motion. When the right hon. Gentleman who had just sat down was in office a House of Commons Committee came to the conclusion that it was necessary in the interests of Members' health that there should be a very considerable extension of the accommodation of the House. Then, unfortunately, there came the South African War and the

  675
  distress which, followed, with the result that Members had had to continue to suffer from the lack of accommodation which years ago was admitted. They who were supposed, commonly and erroneously, to be members of the best club in the world, had only one smoking-room capable of holding forty Members. The smoking-room accommodation was inadequate, unhealthy, and altogether unsatisfactory according to the Committee on which he served as a member. There was not nearly sufficient accommodation for these who desired to smoke, or for these who desired to dine, and there was absolutely no alternative for Members except to continually sit in this chamber, which was fatal to the health of any Member. Therefore he supported the suggestion of the First Commissioner of Works that temporary requirements should be met by allowing smoking in one of the libraries, but he warned the right hon. Gentleman that he would find upon inquiry that this would not meet the case. There was pressing need for a large extension of accommodation throughout the House, and he hoped the right hon. Gentleman would not take approval of his proposal as a sign that Members were generally satisfied with the accommodation which they merely accepted as an instalment.
  MR. T. W. RUSSELLadmitted that the smoking accommodation was perfectly inadequate, and that the present proposal was a totally inadequate remedy for it. He did not smoke himself, but he spent a great deal of time in the smoking-room. No doubt adequate smoking accommodation would facilitate the transaction of business in the chamber itself, and upon that ground he should be inclined to support proper accommodation for smokers. He thought that smokers as a whole were the most selfish people imaginable. But if he were a smoker he should object to this proposal, because newspapers were to be excluded from the room. This was a new Parliament, and the attendance was very much larger than ever before. If they were going to cut down library accommodation in the interests of smokers they must take into account the large attendance of Members who now frequented the library. If this
  676
  attendance endured, as he hoped it would, probably they would have to make other arrangements over the entire House. There were rooms which were practically unused that ought to be annexed if this room was to be given up to smoking. The library accommodation ought not to be curtailed, and he should vote against his right hon. friend's proposal because he believed that he was moving in the wrong direction.
  COLONEL LEGGE (St. George's, Hanover Square)said that as one who signed the memorial in the last Parliament asking for additional smoking accommodation he should support the proposal before the Committee.
  MR. CREMERcalled attention to the remarkable report issued by a Committee which sat for several weeks inquiring into this very subject—he alluded to the Committee of 1894. The conclusions which that Committee arrived at were of such a startling nature that when the Vote for the Houses of Parliament came before the Committee of Supply a reduction of £500 was moved and carried as a, protest against the state of things which had been brought to light. The question had been asked whether it was not possible to find rooms in some other part of the building than the one referred to by the First Commissioner of Works. He thought there was plenty of other accommodation to be found. Some changes had been made since the date to which he had referred, and rooms which were formerly occupied by officials were now used by Ministers. Among the facts brought to light by the Committee were that 315 rooms in this building were then occupied by officials, and that seven officials occupied between them seventy-two bedrooms. The Speaker of the House had sixty rooms at his disposal, the Sergeant-at-Arms thirty-five (seven of them being prison rooms), the Deputy Sergeant-at-Arms twenty-two, the chief clerk of the House of Commons thirty, the assistant clerk twenty-three, Black

  677
  Rod thirty-five (twelve of them bedrooms, the librarian of the House of Lords twenty-four (ten of them bedrooms), but what the librarian of the House of Lords, who was a bachelor, wanted with ten bedrooms nobody could understand. The Lord Great Chamberlain had twenty-five rooms. Such was the extraordinary state of things brought to light by the Committee. It was quite clear, therefore, that there were plenty of rooms in this building available for smoking or other purposes. The question was being put to them in a very unpleasant way, and this was placing some Members in an awkward fix. They did not wish to vote for the reduction or to evince dissatisfaction with the proposal of the First Commissioner. He believed they all had perfect confidence in the right hon. Gentleman, and they were delighted at having such a sympathetic Minister, but his proposal had placed them in an awkward position. He was going to oppose the use of this room for smoking, not because he did not think that more smoking accommodation was required, but because it was clear from the evidence that there were other rooms in this building that could be utilised, and he suggested whether it was not worth while on the part of the First Commissioner to take a little more time for consideration and, if necessary, reappoint the Committee of Inquiry to which he had referred. [Cries of "No, no."] He believed such a Committee would even now bring to light a very extraordinary state of things with regard to the number of rooms which were at present unused and which could be utilised. If the Motion was pressed to a division he should vote for it, Although he was in favour of giving more smoking accommodation. There was one other point. Hon. Members must have noticed that there was no room in the building where they could invite a deputation who wished to confer with them on any subject.
  MR. WILLIAM RUTHERFORD: On a point of order I desire to ask whether the hon. Member is in order in discussing the general question of accommodation.
  THE CHAIRMAN: I expressed the opinion whilst the hon. Member for Bolton was speaking, that it would be better to take a decision upon this question and not go into such questions as the hon. Member for Haggerston is now dealing with.
  MR. CREMERsaid he only mentioned this point to show the necessity of further consideration being given to the question.
  MR. HARCOURTthought that some hon. Members rather misunderstood the position. He had made this proposal in order that hon. Members might express their opinion on the proposal to take one room for smoking which at the present time was occupied by non-smokers. He had never suggested that what he proposed was sufficient accommodation or that it would provide for the great congestion and do away with the necessity for more accommodation. Earlier in the session the hon. Member for East Clare had requested him to approach the House of Lords upon this question, and he had done so. He was pleased to add that they had very nearly come to a conclusion which he thought would be satisfactory to the House as a whole, and which would enable him to give considerably more accommodation by various re-arrangements both for dining and smoking. This was a question simply of taking one small library as a silent room where Members were to be allowed to smoke whilst they were at work. The Government had no views upon this question at all, and they asked the Committee to come to a perfectly free and unfettered decision as to whether they should allow the map-room, smallest of the libraries, to be set apart for this purpose.
  MR. MORTONentirely objected to the taking of one of the library rooms for this purpose, but before they settled this matter they ought to know what had become of the recommendations of the Committee to which the hon. Member for Haggerston had referred.
  Question put.
  The Committee divided:—Ayes, 119; Noes, 244. (Division List No. 80.)

  AYES.

  Abraham, William (Rhondda)

  Ginnell, L.

  Renton, Major Leslie

  Ainsworth, John Stirling

  Gladstone, Rt.Hon.HerbertJn.

  Rickett, J. Compton

  Balcarres, Lord

  Glendinning, R. G.

  Ridsdale, E. A.

  Baring, Hon. Guy (Winchester)

  Gulland, John W.

  Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)

  Barrie, H. T. (Londonderry,N.)

  Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

  Robertson,SirG.Scott(Bradf'rd

  Beale, W. P.

  Hammond, John

  Robson, Sir William Snowdon

  Bellairs, Carlyon

  Haslam, James (Derbyshire)

  Roe, Sir Thomas

  Bethell, J. H. (Essex, Romford)

  Herbert, T, Arnold (Wycombe)

  Runciman, Walter

  Black, Arthur W.(Bedfordshire

  Hervey.F. W. F. (BuryS. Edm'ds

  Russell, T. W.

  Blake, Edward

  Higham, John Sharp

  Shackleton, David James

  Bottomley, Horatio

  Hill, Sir Clement (Shrewsbury)

  Shaw, Rt. Hon. T. (Hawick B.)

  Bramsdon, T. A.

  Hobhouse, Charles E. H.

  Sheehan, Daniel Daniel

  Brotherton, Edward Allen

  Holland, Sir William Henry

  Silcock, Thomas Ball

  Bryce, Rt.Hn.James(Aberdeen

  Hutton, Alfred Eddison

  Sloan, Thomas Henry

  Burns, Rt. Hon. John

  Jardine, Sir J.

  Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim. S.

  Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas

  Johnson, W. (Nuneaton)

  Stewart, Halley (Greenock)

  Caldwell, James

  Jordan, Jeremiah

  Stone, Sir Benjamin

  Cawley, Frederick

  Kearley, Hudson E.

  Sutherland, J. E.

  Channing, Francis Allston

  Laidlow, Robert

  Thomas, David Alfred(Merthyr

  Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R.

  Lambert, George

  Thernton, Percy M.

  Clough, W.

  Lawson, Sir Wilfrid

  Tillett, Louis John

  Cobbold, Felix Thernley

  Lough, Thomas

  Tomkinson, James

  Collins,SirWm.J.(S.Pancras.W

  M'Cullum, John M.

  Trevelyan, Charles Philips

  Corbett A. Cameron (Glasgow)

  Magnus, Sir Philip

  Ward,W.Dudley (Southamptn

  Cory, Clifford John

  Massie, J.

  Watt, H. Anderson

  Cox, Harold

  Menzies, Walter

  Weir, James Galloway

  Craig, Charles Curtis (Antrim.S

  Molteno, Percy Alport

  White, J. D. (Dumbartonshire)

  Crean Eugene

  Money, L. G. Chiozza

  White, Patrick (Meath, North)

  Cremer, William Randal

  Morrell, Philip.

  Whiteley, George (York, W.R.)

  Crooks, William

  Morton, Alpheus Cleophas

  Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

  Davies, Timothy (Fulham)

  Murnaghan, George

  Williams, J. (Glamorgan)

  Dolan, Charles Joseph

  Nicholls, George

  Wilson,Hon.C.H.W. (Hull.W.)

  Duncan, J. H. (York, Otley)

  Nolan, Joseph

  Wilson.Henry J. (York, W.R.)

  Duncan, Robert(Lanark,Govan

  Norton, Capt. Cecil William

  Wilson. John (Durham, Mid)

  Dunn, A. Edward (Camborne)

  O'Brien, William (Cork)

  Wilson', P. W. (St. Pancras, S.)

  Esmonde, Sir Thomas

  O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

  Young, Samuel

  Everett, R. Lacey

  Paul, Herbert

  Younger, George

  Faber, Capt. W. V. (Hants, W.)

  Pearce, William (Limehouse)

  Ferguson, R. C. Munro

  Perks, Robert William

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr. Crombie and Mr. Lamont.

  Findlay, Alexander

  Pirie, Duncan V.

  Fletcher, J. S.

  Rees, J. D.

  NOES.

  Abraham, William (Cork, N.E.

  Boland, John

  Churchill, Winston Spencer

  Acland Francis Dyke

  Bowles, G. Stewart

  Clancy, John Joseph

  Allen, Charles P. (Stroud)

  Branch, James

  Clarke, C. Goddard (Peckham)

  Ambrose, Robert

  Bridgeman, W. Clive

  Clynes, J. R.

  Anstruther-Gray, Major

  Brigg, John

  Coats, Sir T. Glen (Renfrew, W.

  Armitage, R.

  Brocklehurst, W. D.

  Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E

  Ashley, W. W.

  Brooke, Stopford

  Collins, Stephen (Lambeth)

  Baring Godfrey (Isle of Wight)

  Brunner, J.F.L.(Lancs., Leigh)

  Condon, Thomas Joseph

  Barker John

  Brunner, Sir John T. (Cheshire)

  Cooper, G. J.

  Barlow Percy (Bedford)

  Bryce, J.A.(Inverness Burghs)

  Corbett,C.H(Sussex, E.Grins'd

  Barnes G. N.

  Bull, Sir William James

  Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)

  Barran, Rowland Hirst

  Burke, E. Haviland-

  Cotton, Sir H. J. S.

  Barry, E. (Cork, S.)

  Burnyeat, J. D. W.

  Cowan, W. H.

  Beaumont, W. C. B. (Hexham)

  Byles", William Pollard

  Craig, Captain James(Down, E.)

  Beckett, Hon. Gervase

  Cairns, Thomas

  Crossley, William J.

  Bell, Richard

  Cameron, Robert

  Dalziel, James Henry

  Benn W.(T'wr Hamlets,S.Geo.

  Carlile, E. Hildred

  Devlin,CharlesRamsay(Galway

  Bennett, E. N.

  Carr-Gomm, H. W.

  Dewar Arthur (Edinburgh, S.)

  Bertram, Julius

  Castlereagh, Viscount

  Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh.

  Bethell, T. R. (Essex, Maldon)

  Cavendish,Rt.Hon.VictorC.W.

  Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

  Bignold, Sir Arthur

  Cecil, Lord John P. Joicey-

  Dillon, John

  Billson, Alfred

  Chance, Frederick William

  Dixon, Sir Daniel

  Dobson, Thomas W.

  Layland-Barratt, Francis

  Richards, T. F. (Wolverhmpt'n

  Donelan, Captain A.

  Lea, Hugh Cecil (St.Pancras,E.

  Richardson, A.

  Doughty, Sir George

  Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage

  Roberts, S. (Sheffield.Ecclesall)

  Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Robertson,Rt.Hn. E. (Dundee)

  Duckworth, James

  Liddell, Henry

  Robinson, S.

  Du Cros, Harvey

  Lonsdale, John Brownlee

  Rogers, F. E. Newman

  Duffy, William. J.

  Lowe, Sir Francis William

  Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert

  Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness

  Lundon, W.

  Rowlands, J.

  Dunne, Major E. M. (Walsall)

  Lupton, Arnold

  Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool)

  Edwards, Enoch (Hanley)

  Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester)

  Samuel, Herbert L.(Cleveland)

  Elibank, Master of

  MacNeill, John Gordon Swift

  Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel)

  Erskine, Davide C.

  Macpherson, J. T.

  Scarisbrick, T. T. L.

  Essex, R. W.

  MacVeagh, Jeremiah (Down.S.

  Schwann, C. Duncan (Hyde)

  Faber, George Denison (York)

  MacVeigh,Charles(Donegal, E.)

  Scott, A.H. (Ashton underLyne

  Fenwick, Charles

  M'Crae, George

  Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

  Finch, Rt. Hon. George II.

  M'Hugh, Patrick A.

  Sears, J. E.

  Flavin, Michael Joseph

  M'Killop, W.

  Seaverns, J. H.

  Flynn, James Christopher

  M'Micking, Major G.

  Seddon, J.

  Forster, Henry William

  Marks.G. Croydon(Launceston)

  Seely, Major. J. B.

  Fuller, John Michael F.

  Marks, H. H. (Kent)

  Sheehy, David

  Gill, A. H.

  Marnham, F. J.

  Shipman, Dr. John G.

  Glover, Thomas

  Meehan, Patrick, A.

  Sinclair, Rt. Hon. John

  Goddard, Daniel Ford

  Micklem, Nathaniel

  Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie

  Grant, Corrie

  Montagu, E. S.

  Smith F.E.(Liverpool, Walton)

  Greenwood, G. (Peterborough)

  Mooney, J. J.

  Snowden, P.

  Haddock, George R.

  Morgan, G. Hay (Cornwall)

  Soames, Arthur Wellesley

  Haldane, Rt. Hon. Richard B.

  Morpeth, Vicount

  Soares, Ernest J.

  Halpin, J.

  Morse, L. L.

  Stanger, H. Y.

  Hamilton, Marquess of

  Murphy, John

  Stanley, Hn. A. Lyulph(Chesh.)

  Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Lewis

  Myer, Horatio

  Starkey, John R.

  Hardie,J. Keir (Merthyr Tydvil

  Nicholson,CharlesN. (Doncast'r

  Steadman, W. C.

  Harmsworth, Cecil B. (Worc'r

  Norman, Henry

  Strachey, Sir Edward

  Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale)

  Nussey, Thomas Willans

  Strauss, E. A. (Abingdon)

  Harwood, George

  O'Brien,Kendal(TipperaryMid)

  Sullivan, Donal

  Haworth, Arthur A.

  O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

  Suramerbell, T.

  Hayden, John Patrick

  O'Connor, James (Wicklow,W.)

  Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth)

  Hazelton, Richard

  O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)

  Tennant, H. J. (Berwickshire)

  Hedges, A. Paget

  O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.)

  Thomson, W. Mitchell (Lanark.

  Helme, Norval Watson

  O'Dowd, John

  Torrance, A. M.

  Helmsley, Vicount

  O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.)

  Tuke, Sir John Batty-

  Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

  O' Kelly, James(Roscommon, N.

  Vivian, Henry

  Herbert, Colonel Ivor (Mon.,S.)

  O'Malley, Wiliam

  Walker, H. De R. (Leicester)

  Hodge, John

  O'Mara, James

  Wallace, Robert

  Hogan, Michael

  O'Shee, James John

  Walrond, Hon. Lionel

  Hooper, A. G.

  Parker, James (Half ax)

  Walsh, Stephen

  Horninian, Emslie John

  Parkes, Ebenezer

  Ward, John (Stoke upon Trent

  Howard, Hon. Geoffrey

  Paulton, James Mellor

  Wardle, George J.

  Hudson, Walter

  Pearce, Robert (Staffs. Leek)

  Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.

  Hunt, Rowland

  Pease, J. A. (Saffron Walden)

  Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan

  Jacoby, James Alfred

  Power, Patrick Joseph

  Wason, John Cathcart(Orkney)

  Tones, DavidBrynmor(Swansea

  Price, C. E. (Edinb'gh,Central)

  Wedgwood, Josiah C.

  Jones, Leif (Appleby)

  Price,RobertJohn (Norfolk.E.)

  Whitbread, Howard

  Jones, William(Carnarvonshire

  Priestley, W. E.B.(Bradford,E.

  White, Luke (York, E.R.)

  Jowett, F. W.

  Radford, G. H.

  Wilkie, Alexander

  Joyce, Michael

  Rainy, A. Rolland

  Williamson,A.(Elgin and Nairn

  Kekewich, Sir George

  Raphael, Herbert H.

  Winfrey, R.

  Kelley, George D.

  Rea, Walter Russell (Scarboro'

  Yoxall, James Henry

  Kennedy, Vincent Paul

  Reddy, M.

  Kilbride, Denis

  Redmond,John E.(Waterford)

  TELLERS FOE THE NOES—Mr. William Redmond and Mr. Lehmann.

  Lamb, Edmund G.(Leominster

  Remnant, James Farquharson

  Lane-Fox, G. R.

  Richards,Thomas (W.Monm'th

  Original Question put, and agreed to.

  Original Question again proposed.
  MR. HARWOODsaid that some years ago he called attention to the bad accommodation for the reading of newspapers. He was told then that as the result of some negotiations certain rooms were to be made available to Members
  682
  who desired to read newspapers. They never got the rooms which were promised, and he ventured to say that the condition of the present reading-room was simply scandalous. It was not a room at all. It was nothing but a lobby where they had to choose between the devil of a fire and the deep sea of

  683
  a draught. Passing through there, what did they find? They found half a dozen Members generally asleep on account of the state of the atmosphere. On the other side of the room Members were subject to terrible draughts. It was said that they might go to the other reading-room which was a sepulchral chamber downstairs; and that there was the smoking-room. But the latter room was too small. The newspaper reading-room was only 50 feet by 20 in the passage to the tea-room. He thought that the Government, for their own sakes, should make a radical improvement in the accommodation for Members. There were two things which went to make a good Member of Parliament. One was that he should be always on the premises; and the other that he should not be always in the House. Many men came into the House because they could not be anywhere else. What was wanted was that they should be at hand when a division was called. He himself was frequently driven to come in and sit on these miserable bandies listening to miserable speeches, because he did not know where else to go. He did not want to undermine the superstition that the House of Commons was the best club in the world; but at any right they had a right to decent accommodation. He did not want luxury—only simple decency. Let Hon. Members make the round even of working men's clubs and they would find that there was not one but which had better accommodation in proportion to the number of its members. And these were clubs of which the members were not compelled to attend; they might drop in for only half-an-hour or so and then go away. But Members of the House of Commons were brought there in the middle of the afternoon and kept till close on midnight, and they ought to have, as an antidote, I some decent accommodation. Then it was said, "What did our fathers do? When this House was built sixty years ago our fathers did not complain." No, they did not complain, because when Burke made his great speeches the Members were not present. They knew better. Now Members were compelled I to hang about all the afternoon and
  684
  evening. They were torn from their home and loving wives, and they did not know where to go. There was another point. Hon. Members ought to have reasonable accommodation where they could read the reports of their own speeches. He suggested that the newspaper room in the lobby should be thrown into the tea-room. He had mentioned this to one of the officials, who told him that he should come at the proper time; but they all came at the same time. The tea-room was ridiculous, and the reading-room was beneath contempt. What was wanted was a large room on the river from where they could read their newspapers comfortably with a good light, and so keep up their general information. They were told about the power of the Press; but he thought that one reason why the Press was not better than it was, was that Members of the House of Commons had not a fair opportunity of studying their productions. He put his case to his right hon. friend from a catholic point of view. The experience of the past did not now apply. Let them not talk about luxury. Let anyone go into the reading-room and ask himself whether that was fit for the accommodation of 670 Members for eleven hours of the day. He had shown friends over the House, and when they looked through the window of the reading-room they only saw hon. Members fast asleep. That was not because the newspapers were dull, but because the atmosphere was deadly, and there was no decent ventilation. He insisted that the time had come when in a new Parliament with many new Members anxious to do their duty, the officials should face this problem of providing better accommodation.
  MR. DILLONsaid that this was a matter of serious importance. Whatever difference of opinion might exist among hon. Members as to the sensible accommodation that should be provided, all were cheered very much by the announcement of the right hon. Gentleman as to the result of the negotiations he had made with the officials of the House of Lords. He had no doubt that the further accommodation which the right hon. Gentleman had

  685
  secured would do a great deal to remove the grievances they had had to complain of. Apart from minor complaints, there was another subject of vital importance. It was a fact that this House was an extremely unhealthy place. He had no doubt in his own mind that many valuable lives—Ministers', and ordinary Members'—had been shortened or lost owing to the atmosphere of the House, where they were compelled to spend so many hours of the day in session. Some years ago he raised the question especially in regard to the Committee rooms upstairs. A Committee was appointed to consider the matter, and the evidence given was of the most startling and amazing description. It was shown that the atmosphere of the Committee rooms was absolutely poisonous, and that counsel engaged, as well as hon. Members sitting on the Committee, were being continually laid up because of the poisonous atmosphere. No doubt a great improvement had been made with the expenditure of a great deal of money. But he still maintained that the system of ventilation of the House was exceedingly imperfect. He agreed with the Committee that the volume of fresh air for the use of Members which came into the House was sufficient. But he had sat on all these Committees and he had always objected to the system of ventilation which prevailed. All the air they breathed came up through the floor and underneath the benches on which they sat. He maintained that that was a bad system; and he had put to the expert witnesses whether they knew of any public building in Great Britain or in the world which was ventilated through the floor on which the Members continually walked; and all these experts had said that they knew of no modern building which was ventilated on that system. Certainly schools, hospitals, and other buildings were not ventilated in that fashion; but it was a curious fact that experts were not agreed as to what was the most scientific system of ventilation. They all agreed that the present methods were bad, and the only defence of it was that it would cost a good deal of money to alter it. During the time of the South African war that was no doubt a conclusive answer, but he was bound to say that he did not
  686
  think that now the mere question of expense ought to stand in the way s of more perfect ventilation. He agreed that the supply of air since the system had been started on the terrace was sufficient, but he thought that being pumped up through the floor, it was fouled by the feet of Members who came in from the street. In winter time the air came in a great deal cooler than it ought to be. It came in at a temperature of 65° and as it was introduced from the floor it played upon the feet and legs of Members. Everyone knew that it was perfectly pleasant to sit in a temperature of 65°, but if they were exposed to a draught at that temperature it extracted heat from the system and made them very cold. The consequence was that hon. Members had constantly to get up and go out in the lobby to warm themselves by a fire. The feet of Members became like lumps of ice, and he believed that in the whole world there was not such an uncomfortable system of ventilation as that which prevailed in the House of Commons. In that House they laid down sanitary principles of sanitary science which applied to the whole country, and yet they allowed a condition of things to prevail there which made hon. Members subject to these colds for which the building was celebrated. There was no doctor who would not tell them that the worst place for these who were subject to colds was the House of Commons. The First Commissioner was going to spend £2,000 upon ventilation this year. It was a large sum, and he would invite the right hon. Gentleman to seek the opinion of experts as to the best manner in which it could be expended.
  MR. WILLIAM RUTHERFORDsympathised with the last two speakers but only regretted that they did not conclude with some practical suggestion. He was very much struck with the fact that for the ten minutes preceding the division on the Education Bill, fourteen Members, including himself, could not get into the House. He thought it was a disgraceful state of things that these who were carrying on the business of the country should do so in a chamber which could not acccommodate all the Members. Another point which struck

  687
  him was that hon. Members who resided hundreds of miles away wanted more accommodation than hon. Members who had residences in town. They had frequently to meet constituents who come to see them on business, and in consequence of one of three gentlemen who came to see him the other day not being able to bear the atmosphere of the smoking room, he had to converse with them in a draughty corridor. If they were to conduct business in a businesslike way, they ought to have the opportunity of pursuing businesslike habits with decent accommodation. Each session twelve hon. Members became hors de combat and had to retire from the business of the country or died, because of the condition of things which prevailed in that chamber and its precincts. The chamber was inadequate, and had no historic associations, and it should be made possible for them to conduct their business properly, in a proper building, with suitable accommodation.
  MR. T. P. O'CONNORsaid he was glad that they had in charge of this Vote a man with the spirit of his right hon. friend, who could, he thought, make his name historic by initiating a few radical changes in the accommodation afforded to hon. Members. He agreed that the state of things was not so bad as it used to be, because he remembered one historic night when Lord Randolph Churchill moved and carried the adjournment of the House on account of the bad smells which prevailed in it. As to the ventilation of the House he had found an hon. friend of his with a newspaper upon his knees, and he was told that a newspaper was a very good thing to keep oneself warm with, protecting himself from the Arctic blasts by which the atmosphere of the House was tempered, but not entirely destroyed. On another occasion he was in the tea-room talking with a friend who had been to see a doctor, who had stated that the most unhealthy place in London was the House of Commons, and that he owed his income more to that fact than to any other circumstance. He remembered a remarkable rule which appeared to have been laid down by a remarkable man in order to preserve health in the House.
  688
  Lord Tweedmouth, who was then Mr. Majoribanks, the chief Ministerial Whip, took him from the Strangers' dining-room to the Ministers' dining-room, and told him that he had better look into it, because he would there see a historic sight, it being the first recorded time that Mr. Gladstone took dinner in the precincts of the House, Everyone knew that the one place in which Mr. Gladstone could never be induced to stay between 7.30 or 8.30 and 11 o'clock was the House of Commons. He always left the House and had dinner elsewhere, and the last thing he could be induced to talk about during dinner was the affairs of the House. Mr. Gladstone was a master of the art of living soundly, mentally as well as physically, and he took it that the reason why the deceased statesman went away for a period of the evening was that he realised that anybody who stopped throughout the sitting was bound to suffer. He confessed that if he came to the House-regularly and remained there during the whole of the sitting he found at the end of the week that he required a small vacation to recover his health. He would not say anything about the abolition of the dinner hour; he thought it was a change for the worse, but it had been agreed to and there was an end to the matter. But he had noticed that if a man went away only for an hour into a purer atmosphere he came back much fresher. A change ought to be made in the House. The ventilation was very bad. It was also a ridiculous thing that a gentleman who came up from the country to consult his Member upon some important matter affecting his constituency should have no place to wait in, but had to sit about in draughty passages. The right hon. Gentleman would not have to go far to see the necessity for change. He himself would be ashamed to put a junior sub-editor into the semi-underground cellar occupied by the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster. Where was the remedy to be found? It was not that there was not enough accommodation in the building, when there were ten bedrooms for an official of the House who was a bachelor, but that it was not properly used. He did not wish to say anything disrespectful of

  689
  another place, but he would say that to keep up the present establishment, reading rooms, libraries, smoke rooms, and all the other accommodation for a Chamber that rarely sat after five o'clock, and very often did not meet at all, and took long vacations, was one of the greatest follies and absurdities he had ever heard of. He hoped his right hon. friend would not be annoyed if he suggested that instead of changing a portion of the Library into what he would regard as something between a smoke-room and a tap-room, he should seek a remedy by boldly annexing a large number of the rooms at present wasted on the officials of the House of Lords.
  SIR WILLIAM BULLcalled attention to the size of the Union Jack flown from the Victoria Tower, the size of which he said was out of all proportion to the size of the flagstaff and the building. He could not help thinking that, at all events in calm weather, a much larger flag should be flown; and that such a flag would be more in keeping with the size of the flagstaff and of the building. Another thing which he thought was required was a small hand guide to the House for the use of visitors. Many visitors came to the House and went away without having seen or known any of the beauties of the House. He thought a small book might be got out.
  THE CHAIRMANsaid he had no objection to the hon. Member asking a Question upon this subject, but he could not allow the hon. Member to discuss it.
  MR. HARCOURTsaid it might perhaps be convenient if he now dealt with some of the Questions which had been put to him. He was inclined to think with the hon. Member for Hammersmith that the flag that had been flown from the Victoria Tower lately was too small. The full-sized flag which was flown from the Victoria Tower in fair weather was one of the largest flags in the world, being 36 feet by 24, but owing to the great height of the Tower an effect of smallness was produced. It was quite right that a small and light flag should be flown when there was any great wind pressure,
  690
  otherwise the pressure would be so great that the flagstaff would not bear the strain. He also agreed with the suggestion of the hon. Member as to a guide. He had never heard of it before, but he thought it was a good one, and he would suggest that the hon. Member should write it himself. Whether, after it was written, he could afford any facilities for its sale in the building was another matter. Of that he was doubtful, because nothing was allowed to be sold in the building.
  SIR WILLIAM BULLsaid that was the point he was coming to when he was interrupted. There was no permission now for issuing such a work.
  MR. HARCOURTsaid he would see what could be done in that regard, but he welcomed the idea of such a guide being published. Other Members had complained, and not unnaturally, of the state of the newspaper room. He, unfortunately, had been put in possession of a Gothic building constructed of stone and inelastic, and it was quite impossible to enlarge the accommodation. Hon. Members had quoted the Report of a Committee in which a great deal was said of rooms being uselessly given up to officials. But hon. Members forgot that that Committee was twelve years old, and that since it reported most of that accommodation had been given up. It had been said for many years that it was absolutely impossible to construct any more lockers for hon. Members. No one could find any other place in which to put them, but by a careful study of the plans of the House he had found that he could take away the police room and throw it into the corridor, and upon the walls of that new part of the corridor he would be able to put up seventy new lockers. The hon. Member for the Scotland Division of Liverpool and the hon. Member for East Mayo both took up the attitude that the ventilation of the House was very bad, and that it was one of the most unhealthy places in the world. He thought that both were drawing on their recollection of many years ago. The change that had taken place in the ventilation and comfort of the Chamber in the last year or two was very remarkable and was greatly appreciated by many Members who

  691
  remembered the old state of affairs. But there was more to be done, and more was being done. In the Easter Recess he took steps by which, during a division, he was able to remove 45,000 cubic feet of bad air from the Division Lobby in one minute, and he hoped when the hot weather arrived hon. Members would appreciate the benefit of that. Of course the problem of the ventilation of the House was a very difficult one. Associated with Dr. Haldane in these inquiries was another distinguished gentleman, Dr. Gordon. The inquiries had gone on continuously, and he had ready for presentation to Parliament a most interesting bacteriolorical Report by Dr. Gordon on experiments he had made in the House and Reports on suggestions by experts for further improving ventilation, with plans and diagrams.
  MR. DILLONasked whether the inquiry included the question of the ventilation through the floor of the Chamber.
  MR. HARCOURTsaid that that matter had been constantly inquired into, but all the experts said that it was the only practical system in a building constructed as this one was, and it was an admirably working system in its way. It was quite true that a certain amount of dirt fell through the mat from hon. Members' boots and almost every form of bacillus was brought in on their boots; but the amount which came through the exhaust after passing through the Chamber was extraordinarily small. Dr. Gordon and other experts said that samples of air taken during the debate as regarded carbon dioxide was remarkably pure for air taken from an inhabited room. It was said that the air coming into the House was too cool in cold weather. It was not really a question of the temperature of the air. It came in between 62 and 63 degrees. He had given instructions, however, for the temperature of the air after midnight to be raised. The vitality of hon. Members fell rapidly after midnight and very rapidly after 3 a.m., and that produced a feeling of chill, which would be overcome in future by the rise in the temperature. Of course what was wanted was a supply of air which should be large in volume but low in
  692
  velocity. It was the velocity which caused chill. He was in an extremely difficult position in trying to provide the temperature which hon. Members desired, because, while one man complained that the Chamber was too cold, another asserted that it was too hot—quot homines tot ventilations. Then again it was very difficult to choose varying temperatures for different parts of the House. He had endeavoured during the early spring to reduce the velocity of the air by driving it through the cotton-wool filter, and he was doing what he could in the distributing chamber underneath the floor to get more equal distribution. Most scientific people considered that the requisite quantity of air for the human being to enjoy good health was fifty cubic feet per man per minute. That was the full requirement. Taking the maximum accommodation of this chamber, including strangers' and reporters' galleries, at 900, it would be necessary to drive 45,000 cubic feet of air per minute through to meet the maximum requirements. The fans that had been put in were capable of driving at a medium speed of 47,000 cubic feet of air per minute, or, at their maximum speed, 58,000 cubic feet. The whole contents of the Chamber were 165,000 cubic feet, and the entire air could be changed in three minutes. Until these exhaust fans were put in it took ten and a half minutes to change the air under the previous system. The supply of oxygen had been tested. The oxygen in the best air should vary from about 20·8 to 21 per cent. In no single sample taken had it been possible to get less than 21 per cent, of oxygen from the air which had passed through this chamber. It was true that there was no ozone in the House, but he believed scientists had given up the idea that that was valuable. If it were wanted he could produce it very rapidly by an electrical discharge. The question had been raised as to the humidity of the air. That, he was inclined to believe, was low, but he should be glad to have the opinion of hon. Members on the subject. It could be easily remedied. He thought he could claim that what had been done and was being done was satisfactory. It had never been a question of expense; the House had never hesitated

  693
  to spend money on its own comfort. There was one part of the building which was seriously deficient in good air, and that was the Strangers' Gallery. He was arranging for a supply of fresh air to be taken from the Terrace direct to the Strangers' Gallery which, would, he hoped, meet that deficiently. Also as soon as it could be structurally arranged, there would be another air shaft leading to the Ladies' Gallery, which would then be properly ventilated. These changes would, he hoped, be carried out during the next recess. He wished to offer one word of warning against a demand which was certain to be made, namely, that the side windows in this chamber should be thrown open during hot weather. It was obvious that, as a rule, the more the windows of an ordinary building were thrown open the better it was for the people inside, but in this House the opening of the windows was absolutely fatal to the whole system of ventilation. The effect of opening the windows was that practically there remained a deadlock of bad air on the floor of the Chamber so long as the exhaust was sucking the air from those open windows. That was why he should ask the House to allow him to keep the windows closed during the warm weather. Even if the air from those windows got down to them, it would be heated and dust laden, and would not be so pure, as if it had passed through the ordinary channel. The hon. Member for West Derby had asked about the accommodation for seeing I strangers. He agreed that such accommodation was not good, but there were always two conference rooms set apart for that purpose.
  MR. H. H. MARKSwished to direct the attention of the right hon. Gentleman to a matter which, although it was not of such importance as the questions which had been discussed in the debate, was nevertheless of considerable interest to a good many hon. Members. He alluded to the extreme inconvenience caused by the insufficient number of writing tables in the Members" Smoking Room. The time was when Members found plenty of accommodation for writing letters, but a custom had now grown up of using the tables for chess and draughts,
  694
  and those who went to write notes for their speeches, or to indulge in the pleasure; of correspondence with their constituents found that there was no accommodation. The remedy which he would venture to suggest was one which did not call for any revolutionary procedure, or for any considerable expenditure of money. It could be accomplished by a simple expedient of re-arranging the tables in the room and giving instructions that those placed there for writing purposes should not be utilised for chess and draughts when Members desired to use them for writing purposes.
  MAJOR SEELYsaid he was an advocate of the policy of the open window. An ounce of practice was worth a pound of theory. On more than one occasion when he had urged that the windows should be opened the hon. Member for East Mayo had protested on the ground that the draught was very inconvenient to himself and other hon. Members. But his hon. friend could not have it both ways. Any scheme of ventilation which involved taking the air through a dark passage and passing it through various processes and then through the floor of the House, which was not very clean, could not be so good as fresh air from an open window. He would ask his right hon. friend before finally deciding against the open window to consult other experts, who had assured him that fresh air through an open window was better than any artificial supply.
  MR. MORTONsaid it was well understood that the whole difficulty in regard to the bad atmosphere in the House arose from the fact that the air was taken directly off the top of the Thames river, and the impurity arose in consequence of the sewage. He thought it would be better to take the air at a higher level. With regard to the want of accommodation in the Chamber, that question had often been discussed, and it was a matter which ought to be considered, especially in view of the fact that they had now a new House of Commons with hon. Members anxious to attend and do their duty. If they came to the House of Commons at 2.45, they ought to be able to find a seat somewhere. If in a full

  695
  House they stood at the Bar they were called to order and asked to find a seat, which they could not possibly do. He hoped that his right hon. friend in his spare moments would devote his attention to the problem of providing more accommodation in the Chamber. Then there was the question of the lighting of the Terrace. He thought hon. Members had reason to thank the First Commissioner for having improved the lighting in the streets immediately outside the House by the use of incandescent lights. He thought he might also improve the lighting of the terrace if he changed those old fashioned burners into incandescent lights, which would cost no more, except the initial cost, and would give four or five times as much light. His right hon. friend had said that hon. Members were only too glad to spend money on themselves. They might have been extravagant in the past, and he believed much of the expenditure had been wasted. He hoped his right hon. friend would not rely entirely on experts, but bring to bear on the subject his own great intelligence. Then he would be successful.
  MR. SAMUEL EVANSsaid no one who was not a faddist could complain of the ventilation of the Chamber. He hoped it would not go out that they were anxious to spend money on their own comfort. What his right hon. friend said was that they were willing to give the money required for necessary purposes. Nobody would object to the House of Commons expending the money necessary not simply for their comfort, but for their health as well as their comfort. There was one matter to which his right hon. friend ought to direct his immediate attention, namely, the accommodation in the "Aye" and the "No" Lobbies. How far had the right hon. Gentleman gone in the investigation of the matter? He had never found himself nearly asphyxiated in the House, but he had in the division lobbies. It was of the utmost importance that something should be done to provide a different arrangement in the division lobbies from that which existed at the present moment. More ventilation could be got by passing
  696
  the air through the lobbies at greater velocity, by opening windows, by more fans, and such like appliances, but the real question to which his right hon. friend must direct his attention was whether some other method could not be devised. A division in the ordinary course of things occupied about twenty minutes. The divisions took a long time, because the majorities, as a rule, were large in one lobby. In the old times the Members voting were fairly evenly divided in the two lobbies, but now they were absolutely huddled together in one lobby, and they were kept there an unconscionable time until the House was cleared. The reason for that was to be found in the fact that Members did not clear out of the House as rapidly as possible. That was a matter to which the Speaker and the Chairman might, direct their attention. While some Members were filing slowly out of the House others were huddled together in the lobby, and the influence on their health must be most deleterious. It was quite true that the Committee on Procedure would have their attention directed to the matter, but as a Member of that Committee he could hold out no hope whatever that anything would be done with respect to it in the course of this session. He was anxious that something should be done before the dog days in regard to the lobbies. Supposing that when the Education Bill was in Committee they had on one day ten divisions, the time occupied in walking through the lobbies would be over three hours. When in the lobbies they should not be subjected to conditions which affected their bodily health, and he hoped his right hon. friend would not allow the matter to lie in abeyance until he had a recommendation from the Committee on Procedure, but that he would be able to announce that some plan would be devised to relieve Members from the pestilential state of things from which they now suffered in passing through the lobbies.
  MR. HARCOURTsaid an hon. Member had complained that players of chess and draughts occupied the writing tables in the Smoking-room. That was not a matter which came under his control, but he quite agreed that the writing tables

  697
  should not be used in the way described. He hoped that hon. Members when playing chess and draughts would use some of the smaller tables. His hon. friend the Member for the Abercromby Division of Liverpool had spoken of the draughts from open windows. The draughts came when the wind was in a particular quarter, and blowing at a particular velocity. The hon. Member threw rather a reflection on the purity of the floor of the House. Though not pretty to look at, the floor in every part of the Chamber was cleansed every morning by a vacuum cleaner, and the matting was removed every Saturday and passed through a formalin process which absolutely sterilised it. As to the question asked by the hon. Member for Sutherland in regard to the height at which air was drawn from the Terrace into the building, he had to say that the point had been considered whether it would be better to take in air at a much I higher level. The tendency in all great towns was for bad air to rise, and for the fresh air from the country and the river to come in at a low level. He had had bacteriological tests made as to the condition of the air at the top of the Tower and on the Terrace, and it had been found that on the Terrace the air was infinitely superior in every respect to that at the top of the Tower. The question of having a Chamber of increased size was not one for him to deal with. It was a matter of policy for the Government as a whole. He hoped personally that hon. Members would have a little patience in regard to this matter. Debates of the kind now going on were easy in the present Chamber. If they had to provide a seat for every Member returned they would require; a House more than double the size of the present, and he did not like to contemplate the difficulty which an hon. Member would experience in trying to make himself heard by Members scattered about such an enormous building. There had always been a demand for a larger House at the beginning of a new Parliament. He might call it a hardy septennial. At the beginning of the 1880 Parliament a Question was put from the Gallery in order to direct the attention of Members to the state of the accommodation. Mr. Gladstone at that time discouraged the House from going in for a new building, and
  698
  stated that after the first session there was generally sufficient accommodation. Of course he did not pretend for a moment that it was not possible to build a new House, or to enlarge the existing one. This House could be enlarged at great expense by taking down the side walls and adding the present division lobbies to the area. Acoustics were an indeterminate science, and what would happen in a House double the size he could not say. Whether we could ever obtain a House so perfect in its acoustics as the present was also doubtful. He would be very loth to touch a building which in many ways was perfectly suitable for its purpose. An hon. Member had suggested that the Terrace should be illuminated with incandescent lights. His own opinion was that there was some charm about the dimness of the light on the Terrace. He, however, was quite willing to take the opinion of hon. Members on the subject: and he had given instructions that three or four lamps should be fitted merely as an experiment, and in the next few weeks he would be able to to give effect to the general expression of opinion. He warned the Committee that these alterations for the comfort of hon. Members involved the expenditure of money which must receive Parliamentary authority and next February he would have to introduce a Supplementary Estimate to sanction them so as to free himself from responsibility. His hon. friend had drawn his attention to the condition of the division lobbies. He had now received from the Cabinet power to deal with the matter officially, and to spend what money was necessary in order to make experiments in that regard. He had a plan in his mind in respect to the alteration which might be made; and when the proper time came he would provide a large diagram in the Tea-room showing the alterations he proposed, and he might even deliver a lecture upon it himself.
  LORD BALCARRES: Does it involve structural alterations of any important character?
  MR. HARCOURTsaid that it-might involve certain structural alterations on woodwork, as to doors, etc. He was going

  699
  to submit himself as a witness to the Committee on Procedure immediately after Whitsuntide, and he believed that the Committee would go into that question and consider his suggestions. If his suggestions were approved of, they would be made in a temporary form until it could be seen whether they were approved by the House generally. He would like to point out that the great inconvenience of the present system was due largely to the great disparity of the numbers of hon. Members on the two sides. He would be extremely slow to depart from the old system under which there were occasional meetings in the division lobbies between Members from different parts of the House. The association in the lobbies with Ministers was also extremely useful to hon. Members, and nothing in his plan would interfere with the present system of passing through the lobbies. It would only make the passage through the lobbies much more rapid than at present.
  ME. POWEEdrew attention to the great inconvenience which hon. Members suffered in the Tea-room between half-past five and seven o'clock. It would be a great advantage if the right hon. Gentleman would provide an additional room where Members could get their tea in comfort. Eight or ten years ago he drew the attention of the then Commissioner of Works to the wretched light in the Library; and movable electric lamps were placed on the tables, which was a great improvement. What he complained of was that some Members came down early to the Library, put a few papers on the table, and turned up a chair and then went away so that other Members were prevented from getting access to the table to carry on their correspondence. He thought that if more lamps were put in the lobby it would be a great improvement.
  MR. CREMERsaid he wanted to return to the subject of the ventilation of the House. A very important Report was made by a Committee appointed to inquire into this matter three years ago. Experiments were made by that Committee, pipes were laid all along the
  700
  House; air was collected from these pipes and subjected to analysis by expert chemists. That Report could be studied in the Library. He ventured to say from his experience of nearly every Legislative Chamber in Europe and in the United States, that the atmosphere of this House was about the purest in the world; and the Report of that Committee bore out that statement. If the hon. Member for East Mayo consulted that Report he would have his fears somewhat dissipated, because it had been proved that the atmosphere in this House was as pure as it was possible to get in any building of the kind. He would suggest to hon. Members who complained of the bad air that they should go down below and inspect the marvellous apparatus for securing ventilation. He was very glad to hear what the First Commissioner of Works had said as to publishing a guide for the use of strangers visiting the Houses of Parliament. He had on previous occasions brought the subject Before the House some years ago, and the then First Commissioner of Works promised to consider the matter. There was already a guide sold within the precincts of the House. He held in his hand a copy of that guide book. It was a poor wee thing; and he thought that a better one should be prepared so that thousands of strangers who visited the building might be able to take away with them an illustrated and instructive memorial. A Committee was appointed twelve years ago to take into consideration the best possible means of providing for the better accommodation of Members, One of their recommendations was that strangers who had seats under the Gallery should not be compelled to leave the House when a division was called. To obviate that, it was suggested by the Committee that a railing should be placed between the House and the seats under the Gallery. That railing was erected, but from that day to this the occupants of the seats had been compelled to withdraw when a division was called. The result often was that when a division was called they had hon. Members trying to get in and gentlemen who occupied the Strangers' seats under the Gallery trying to get out. To obviate this difficulty he would suggest that the First

  701
  Commissioner, who had, he understood, he power to do it to-morrow if he liked, should allow the gentlemen who occupied the Strangers' seats under the Gallery to remain there so as to prevent the collision to which he had alluded taking place. With regard to the police about the building he urged that they should not be called upon to stand for eight or nine hours continuously. For some reason which he was not acquainted with it was more fatiguing to stand upon tiles for three or four hours than upon a wooden floor for eight or nine hours. He did not know whether this subject came within the First Commissioner's Department, but if it did he hoped the right hon. Gentleman would consider it and allow the policemen about the House to have an occasional rest for an hour or two. He sat upon a Committee some twelve years ago which considered the subject of enlarging or rebuilding the House of Commons, and but for an extraordinary trick or something approaching one they would have decided in favour of the enlargement of the present House of Commons or of a new building. The proposal was lost by only one vote. It was a strong Committee, and a plan was proposed for altering the chamber into a semi-circular one and increasing it in size by quite a simple method. He thought that, with the exception of the House of Representatives at Washington, this was the only square or longitudinal legislative chamber in the world: as all the others were constructed upon the semi-circular plan or horseshoe fashion. He thought the House ought to have been constructed upon that plan, and the sooner it was seen about the better.
  MR. J. WARD*MR. J. WARD (Stoke-on-Trent) moved to reduce the vote by £700, the item for providing a lift for the House of Lords. He wished to ask the Commissioner of Works whether under all the circumstances and in view of the history of the doings of that Assembly in the past as well as recently it was necessary to provide any better accommodation than it enjoyed at present. He thought that, considering the attitude of the House of Lords in regard to measures proposed in this House, especially in dealing with very important labour problems,
  702
  and its evident determination to oppose everything that was moved by the Labour Members, it would be the duty of the Labour men to oppose any proposal for saddling the country with further expenditure upon that body. He hoped the First Commissioner of Works would not consider his Motion for reduction as hostile to the present Administration in any shape or form, but merely as being moved for the purpose of giving an immediate expression of opinion as to the conduct of the other Assembly. He was going to put this Motion to the vote in view of the way in which decisions of this House were treated by the Upper Chamber. The Aliens Bill was not in his view a Party question in any shape or form, but a proposal which had been unanimously accepted by this House and had now been rejected with scorn by the other Chamber.
  THE CHAIRMAN: The hon. member cannot discuss the matter in this way. He can move the reduction, but he cannot criticise the action of the House of Lords upon any measure.
  MR. J. WARDsaid he was a new Member, and he apologised if he had transgressed the rules of order. He had no doubt that there would be many hon. Members, however, who would be able to deal with the policy of the House of Lords without getting out of order. He would content himself with moving the reduction.
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That item A be reduced by £700."— (Mr. John Ward.)
  MR. HARCOURTsaid the question of the tea-room had already been dealt with, and as to the question in reference to papers and books in the library it was one for the officials of the House and not for him. He should be most happy to give hon. Members who had questioned him facilities for viewing plans of what it was proposed to do. He was not sure whether strangers ought not to be allowed to remain under the gallery during a division, so as to avoid crowding; that was a matter which might well come before the Procedure Committee, who might perhaps make a recommendation to the House on the subject. He was

  703
  considering the question of affording seats for officials at the Speaker's end of the House, and he thought it possible by making alterations at the clock end of the chamber and removing the short staircase, to give an extra bench for the Members who might be displaced at the Chair end. He believed that there would be no serious objection to that proposal, and the House would not object to giving up one row of seats if it was replaced two elsewhere. He had nothing to do with the policing of the House, and the force were under the Home Secretary. They had already discussed the enlargement of the House, but he would enter his caveat against any countenance being given to a semi-circular chamber. He quite understood the natural sense of seriousness in which the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent desired to reduce the expenditure on the House of Lords in view of the action which had taken place that day, but he did not think this was a convenient method of raising the question, nor did he think it would be very effective. There was no lift in the House of Lords at all, whereas there were three in the House of Commons. A very distinguished and active peer who suffered from an infirmity which prevented him ascending stairs, but who took a great part in public work, had to go to the lift leading to the Ladies Gallery in the House of Commons and walk to the scene of his duties. There were many other Members of the House of Peers, who did not retire from their work because they were infirm, as Members of the Lower House did, to whom a lift would be useful. Hon. Members must remember that if they had no consideration for the House of Peers there were others who had occasion to go to the House of Lords who had to be considered. He hoped, therefore, the hon. Member would not press his Amendment to a division, and that the Committee would now allow this vote to pass.
  MR. DILLONsaid he did not agree with the right hon. Gentleman that this Vote should be taken without a division. It was the only means the Committee had of showing its feeling upon these matters. He remembered that some years ago the Committee cut out a Vote on the Paper in respect to the other House, and that had a
  704
  considerable effect upon the minds of those who sat in that House. What on earth did the House of Lords want with a lift? They had almost nothing to do and as almost religiously did it. They only sat for about one hour a week, and he could not for the life of him see the reason for putting this expense on the tax-payers. He hoped the hon. member would go to a division and give those who felt very keenly on the conduct of those who occupied one portion of the building an opportunity of expressing their views in the division lobby. If the right hon. Gentleman would give the Committee a more suitable opportunity within a short date, he would await that opportunity.
  MR. A. L. STANLEYsaid he was entirely in sympathy with those who moved and supported this Amendment, but he wished to point out that the House of Lords, besides being a legislature, was a judicial body, and that as such they earned fees which were handed over to the Exchequer. It was quite possible that if this Committee refused to concede this lift the House of Lords would cease to hand over the fees that they received as a judicial body and apply them to the purpose of constructing one, or it might be twenty, lifts. By such a transaction the Committee would not gain anything, and that being so he hoped the hon. Gentleman would withdraw his. Amendment.
  MR. T. W. RUSSELLsaid that if it came to a conflict between the House of Lords and the House of Commons, there was very little doubt as to who would win.
  MR. WEIR (Ross and Cromarty)said he could not agree with the right hon. Gentleman the First Commissioner. He admired his sympathy for the feeble peer, but that was no reason why they should vote £700 for this one Gentleman's convenience when there were thousands of poor landless cottars in the Highlands and Islands of Scotland. He would be a traitor to his country if he allowed this sum to be vetted for the comfort of one feeble nobleman, however amiable he might be. He came to the House pledged up to the hilt to reform and economy. Where did the economy

  705
  come in in this Vote? They had far better have a couple of porters to carry this poor Gentleman—say, a couple of Chinamen, who were well used to that kind of work. He would be no party to this expenditure, and he hoped there were many present pledged to economy who would vote against this extravagance.
  MR. WILLIAM RUTHERFORDwished to give his views upon this extremely unseemly Amendment, and the objectionable manner in which it had been supported. He took it that if there was any reasonable ground for calling into question the conduct of those who sat in another place they had at least the right of being treated with courtesy and consideration. If there was reasonable ground for calling attention to their conduct the opportunity of doing so ought to be taken in a constitutional and regular way. Hon. Gentlemen below the gangway must have misinterpreted the meaning of the word "lift" in this Vote. It did not mean that this House was giving a support to the House of Lords, but an elevator. The intention was to spend £700 on a structural improvement in another part of the building. As had been pointed out, this House had three lifts for the accommodation of Members, while the House of Lords had none. The First Commissioner of Works had intimated that he was engaged in delicate negotiations with the representatives of the Upper Chamber, and was obtaining from them some addition to the comforts of this House. Was this the right way to bring about a good result of those negotiations? He hoped the Committee would not allow the Amendment to be withdrawn, so that hon. Members might have an opportunity of expressing their opinion upon it.
  MR. KEIR HARDIEsaid that he wanted to explain the circumstances connected with this reduction. The House probably knew that in the House of Lords the Aliens Bill——
  THE CHAIRMAN: That subject cannot be discussed; it is out of order. The question of the rejection of the Aliens
  706
  Bill by the House of Lords has nothing whatever to do with this Vote.
  MR. KEIR HARDIEsaid that in that case the only course loft was to make a protest against what had happened in the Upper House, for which the Government as much as the Opposition in the House of Lords were responsible, by voting for the proposed reduction.
  MR. STANLEY WILSON (Yorkshire, E.R, Holderness)hoped that the First Commissioner of Works would not listen to the plea of hon. Members below the gangway, that he would show some grit over this subject, and that he intended for once to put his back against the wall. He assured the right hon. Gentleman that he would receive the support of the Opposition.
  MR. HARCOURTsaid it appeared to him that hon. Gentlemen did not exactly understand the position. It was arranged to put the lift in the House of Lords because of the convenience of the arrangement to the Members and also to individuals suffering from physical disability. He appealed to hon. Members not to press the reduction, on account of the negotiations in which he was now engaged to secure further accommodation for their benefit. Everything was still in the air, and if this reduction wore carried, all his plans would vanish into thin air. He therefore implored hon. Members not to make their protest—with which he fully and warmly sympathised—in any form that would hamper him in the negotiations that he was carrying on for the general convenience of the House.
  MR. J. WARDsaid that, after consultation with his colleagues, and especially after the expression of sympathy from the right hon. Gentleman, he would ask leave to withdraw his Amendment, hoping to obtain a more favourable opportunity of discussing the merits of the question.
  Leave to withdraw refused.
  Question put and negatived.
  Original Question again proposed.
  MR. WILLIAM RUTHERFORD MR. WILLIAM RUTHERFORD moved the reduction of the Vote by £100, because, although he thought

  707
  the Committee ought to be very grateful to the First Commissioner of Works for the exceedingly interesting particulars he had given tending to reassure them as to the cleanliness and the atmosphere of the Chamber, and as to the removal from it of bacteriological and other matter injurious to health, the right hon. Gentleman had not seen his way to include in the Vote any item for improving the accommodation in the House. The accommodation was hopelessly inadequate, the Benches for seating were most uncomfortable, and generally the House was the worst-provided Legislature in Europe, and he could speak from knowledge, having visited and carefully examined the Houses of Legislature in practically every European capital Members of the House had none of the facilities for discharging their legislative duties enjoyed by the representatives in foreign Legislatures, such as a convenient seat and desk, with pen and ink. To secure a seat, members had to come to the House at an early and inconvenient hour of the morning. As a matter of fact, there was not seating accommodation in the House for more than two-thirds of the people's representatives. It had also been admitted that the smoking room accommodation was exceedingly inadequate, and the room was perhaps the most draughty in London. It was admitted, too, that the tea-room accommodation was inadequate, and was rendered unpleasant by the fumes of the boiling tea and coffee in preparation. He had visited that evening the two rooms referred to as being excellent for the purpose of a Member interviewing anyone, and found that they were apparently fully occupied by secretaries or other people. There was no place in the House where a Member could have a few minutes' conversation with a constituent or anyone else on business except in the smoking room or the draughty corridor on a stone bench. He very much regretted to hear the First Commissioner practically tell the Committee that it was not the intention to add to the accommodation of Members, and certainly not to do anything to enlarge the accommodation in the Chamber itself. He saw by the Vote that they were asked to spend £1,800 in providing additional rooms for Ministers. He presumed they had the rooms which
  708
  the late Ministers had, and he failed to see why they should not be good enough. The ventilation of the lavatories also called for some comment. It was most necessary that the lavatories should be thoroughly ventilated. He noticed that for this purpose £250 was spent last year, and there was a similar amount put down for next year. Could the First Commissioner tell them when this expenditure began, and when it was intended to cease? He did not think they were properly ventilated even now. There was also an item of £2,000 for improvements in the ventilation of the Chamber. He was told that at present the arrangements were about as perfect as they could be made, and that the experts were quite satisfied with the manner in which the air was taken from the Terrace, washed of its impurities, warmed, and sent along by means of powerful fans of great size at the rate of 45,000 cubic feet a minute. If the arrangement by which the air came through the dirty floor subjecting Members' legs to draughts, as had been so graphically described, was perfect, why should they spend another £2,000 upon it? This was not the cost of upkeep, but simply the cost of alterations and improvements. He noticed that £550 was going to be spent upon the heating of Ministers' rooms and corridors in the House of Commons in addition to the sum spent last year. The Members' tea room and reading room were in a vile condition; in fact they were only pieces of an old passage, and they were going to spend another £250 upon them in improving the ventilation. There were a number of other items, but he did not want to waste the time of the House. On page 19, £13,630 was going to be spent upon works and services connected with the engineering arrangements and the wages of the men in connection with the ventilation. That was an enormous sum, but in addition there was £7,300 for lighting and £3,300 for fuel, which would represent about 7,000 tons. If the Government were really desirous of practising that economy which was talked so much about during the election, they could not do better than give their attention to some of these items. He was very dissatisfied with the way in which this Vote had been brought forward, and he did not think that the arrangements

  709
  for the comfort, convenience, and health of Members had been fully taken into consideration by the Government. They were entitled to better accommodation and better facilities for visitors, and as a protest against the refusal of the First Commissioner to listen sympathetically to the suggestions made to him, he would move the reduction of the Vote by £100. He understood that the right hon. Gentleman intended to give evidence before the procedure Committee. If so, he hoped he would suggest that, when a division was taking place, the door at the top of the stairs should be open. There was no earthly reason, as far us he was aware, why Members should not be able to get out down the steps after the Members had gone into the lobbies.
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That a sum, not exceeding £31,700, be granted for the said service."—(Mr. Watson Rutherford.)
  MR. HARCOURTsaid he had not yet been able to make all the arrangements he desired so as to get a better supply of air in the division lobbies. The sum to be spent on the engineering department would only exceed the sum spent last year by £450. The men employed in this department were very numerous. It appeared from the Estimates that there was a falling off in the salary of the resident engineer, but he wished the Committee to understand that the present resident engineer was going to be promoted, and that the new engineer would be appointed at a lower salary. The opening of the door of the Members' staircase entrance during divisions would be an admirable reform, but he did not know that it fell within his province to deal with that matter.
  CAPTAIN CRAIGsaid it was difficult for Members to deal with the books and papers which they kept in the lockers in the passages on account of there being no shelves on which to place them. He asked whether it would not be possible to provide a small lifting shelf inside each locker. He believed this could.be done at trifling cost.
  MR. STANLEY WILSONinquired if there was any intention of changing the colour of the face of Big Ben. Last
  710
  year Big Ben's face had a greenish appearance; now it was very white.
  MR. WEIRsaid there was an item of £700 for water supply. He wished to know whether the water supplied in the dining-room was of good quality. Was the water obtained from the Water Board, or was it artesian well water mixed with Thames water? The sum of £2,550 for repairing furniture seemed to him extravagant. When the late profligate Government was in office it was absolutely useless to call attention to this matter, but the sum should be more modest under a Liberal Administration. He did not know whether the right hon. Gentleman was aware of the fact that it was the practice in the workshop of his department if a castor was broken off a chair not to be satisfied simply with putting on a new castor, but to break the leg off the chair and put on a new leg.
  MR. FORSTERexpressed the hope that, while suitable accommodation would be provided for officials who had to attend during the debates in order that Ministers might be able to get into communication with them, nothing would be done to lessen the accommodation available for strangers in view of the enormous demand with which they wore confronted for the admission of strangers. He found from a footnote that some of the men in the engineer's department were pensioners. Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman would tell the Committee how many out of the total number were pensioners, and whether he would consider the advisability of utilising the services of pensioners as far as possible. He thought the House should set a good example to other employers of labour by giving a preference where possible to Army and Navy pensioners.
  MR. JOHN O'CONNORsaid that anything which affected the House must be interesting to Irishmen. [Some OPPOSITION laughter.] Some hon. Members laughed; but it should be remembered that the House was built by an Irishman, Sir Charles Barry, whose statue was on the staircase. Again, the House was decorated by an Irishman. The most beautiful pictures in the House were painted by Daniel Maclise. He knew many of the pupils of that eminent

  711
  artist. Two great panels in the Royal Gallery were painted by Daniel Maclise, one illustrating the meeting of Wellington and Blucher on the field of Waterloo, and the other representing the death of Nelson on board the "Victory" at Trafalgar. These frescoes had been engraved and sold all over the world in hundreds of thousands; but those who purchased them did not know that the original pictures in the House of Parliament were in a most dilapidated condition and that they were fast fading away. Why should those glorious works of an artist, who was first in his generation, be neglected and allowed to perish for want of ordinary care? He knew a friend and disciple of Daniel Maclise, Mr. Henry O'Shea, of Limerick, an artist of eminence himself, who sometimes came over to London on a visit, and that gentlemen often told him that he had wept over those pictures and their neglected condition. Many years ago Mr. O'Shea asked him to draw the attention of the House to the state of those pictures, and he had never had an opportunity of doing so until now. Some of the very finest works of art in the building, which was a work of art in itself, were the product of Irish genius. He wanted to know from the First Commissioner of Works whether he would not consult the President of the Royal Academy, and Sir William Richmond, who had done such noble work in the decoration of St. Paul's Cathedral, so that something might be done for the preservation of the frescoes in the Royal Gallery. He knew that they were under very unfavourable conditions; that the atmosphere which prevailed about the Houses of Parliament was not at all favourable for the preservation of works of that kind. Indeed, the atmosphere was most unfavourable to the House itself, because the chemicals from the works not very far away were crumbling the stone work of the river front, as anyone could see who took the trouble to look.
  MR. T. L. CORBETTtrusted that the right, hon. Gentleman the First Commissioner of Works would respond to the eloquent and touching appeal made by his hon. friend. Some hon. Members "had interrupted his friend with ribald laughter and unseemly levity, but he hoped the right hon. Gentleman would treat this matter of the threatened destruction of works of art
  712
  due to Irish genius in a very different spirit. He desired to call attention to Item B, for maintenance and repair of the clock tower. It was startling to think that the charges for these had risen from £6,600 to £8,000. For such a large increase as £1,400 they were entitled to a much fuller explanation than had yet been given. His old friend, the Member for Scotland——
  MR. WEIR: The Member for Ross a Cromarty.
  MR. T. L. CORBETT: Well, his old friend the Member for Ross and Cromarty had already called attention to the very remarkable item of £3,550 for the supply and repair of furniture, floorcloth, and mats. That was a remarkable increase of £2,500. More details should be furnished to the Committee as to how this large sum had been expended. They all wanted to assist the right hon. Gentleman in getting through his Estimates, because he had shown the greatest courtesy throughout these discussions.
  MR. HARCOURTsaid that the cost of lighting Big Ben was, roughly speaking, £240 a year. The green light was cheaper than the present light by about £80, but he was not prepared to revert to the experiment of last year unless he was assured that hon. Members thought it desirable, and that the public would ultimately become accustomed to it in the interests of economy. An hon. Member had asked where the water consumed in the House came from. It was not drawn from artesian wells: it was a supply from the Chelsea Water Works. He had been asked questions about furniture and castors. He would investigate and report to the hon. Member who raised the question, whose eagle eye nothing seemed to escape. He had thrown out a suggestion that the position of officials in this House might be changed, and it was only made subject to certain alterations being found possible He did not suggest that the space for strangers should be decreased, but he thought that if they could increase the seating accommodation by another bench to hold ten, the change would be for the manifest convenience of the House. He was sorry to say that he could not give the number of pensioners employed

  713
  in the House and he could not promise to employ any considerable number of these men in such work as that of engineers, in which special fitness was necessary. In all other departments connected with buildings under his control it was his desire to give places to pensioners whenever it was possible. As to the frescoes and other decorations, he had found upon inspection that no serious deterioration or perishing was taking place. Undoubtedly there was some fading, owing largely to the particular medium which had been employed. To attempt anything like colour restoration would be hopelessly to destroy the merit of the artist's achievement, but every effort was being made to preserve the work in accordance with the advice of the best exports. No pains, he could assure hon. Members, would be neglected to preserve these works, which in addition to their own merits had become historic. The hon. Member for North Down had asked a question as to an item of £1,400 for maintenance and repairs. Nearly £1,000 was for the removal of the paint in the innermost lobby which had been vandalised and vulgarised by painting. He proposed to take off the paint and restore the lobby to its original appearance. Another £300 was for the laying of water mains and the removal and renewal of the cisterns, which were in a very dirty state. All the cisterns would now be put in a sanitary condition. He was asked how £3,500 for the supply of furniture last year had been spent, but he of course was not responsible for that expenditure. He believed that the particulars which the hon. Member wanted would be found in the details of expenditure laid before the Public Accounts Committee. He had put his estimate at the same figure as last year, acting upon the information he had received from expert officials of long experience.
  Question put, and negatived.
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That a sum not exceeding £48,000, be granted to His Majesty to complete the sum necessary to defray the charge which will conic in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1907, for expenses in respect of Diplomatic and Consular Buildings."
  MR. WEIRcalled attention to expenditure upon certain Embassies. £20,000 had been spent upon the purchase of a Legation House at Christiania, whilst at Nagasaki, an important port in Japan, only £5,700 had been required for rebuilding the Consulate. A large sum, £46,600, had been spent on a new Embassy at Madrid, and in his opinion the expenditure under this head was excessive.
  MR. WILLIAM RUTHERFORDcalled attention to the fact that there were not forty Members present.
  House counted, and forty Members being present,
  MR. WEIRresumed his speech and condemned the excessive expenditure upon these buildings.
  MR. STANLEY WILSONreferred to the cost of the old Legation at Madrid, and to the cost of the Consular buildings at Nagasaki, the Estimate in regard to which, he claimed, had been largely increased. He was referring to the rebuilding of the Consulate at Nagasaki. He did not hear what the hon. Member for Ross and Cromarty, who, he believed, referred to this subject, had said, owing to the great amount of conversation that was going on in the House, and therefore if he had referred to anything to which the hon. Member had called attention he hoped the Committee would excuse him. He trusted the right hon. Gentleman would give the Committee a satisfactory reply as to these revised and increased Estimates.
  MR. WILLIAM RUTHERFORDsaid he noticed that these items had been much increased in the revised Estimates. The proportion of increase under "A" was no loss than £13,000 over the Estimate of last year. As against that increase there was on one item a paltry and, in his opinion, an entirely uncalled-for economy. He referred to Vote 7, Item A.—for the maintenance of Crimean cemeteries. Last year £700 was voted for the purpose of keeping in decent and honourable condition the graves of those who fought and fell for their country. Many hon. Members had received communication from friends who had been to these places, saying how badly these graves

  715
  were kept, but the fact remained that last year £700 was spent upon them. In the item for the coming year, however, there was only £300 for that purpose. It seemed to him that while the department did not hesitate to add £13,000 to this particular Vote they were going to be guilty of a paltry economy in the item required for keeping in decent order the graves of our illustrious dead in the Crimea.
  MR. MORTONsaid he quite agreed that we ought to look after the graves of those who fought and died in the service of the country. But in this country it was the practice, having got all they could out of their soldiers, to let them, if they were not killed, do the best they could for themselves, and to let their wives and children go to the workhouse. Wherever he found revised and increased Estimates, he always viewed them with suspicion, because they were entitled to regard the original Estimates as showing the total cost. Efficient persons were employed to prepare these Estimates, and they were therefore entitled to regard them as accurate. But some of them knew that Estimates, not only public, but private, were sometimes purposely made low to get them adopted, and that they were increased afterwards. He therefore asked for a full and satisfactory explanation of these increases. He quite agreed with the hon. Member for Ross and Cromarty that they ought to look with suspicion on the expenditure on these old places in Spain, and on the sum proposed to be expended on some place in Japan. No doubt large sums of money were wasted in this way. The reason that economy must be practised in these matters was that the money was wanted for other purposes. While this sort of thing went on how was it possible for him to get the few hundreds he wanted for improvements in Sutherlandshire? His objection to voting for these increased Estimates was that the present Government, like the previous Government, were neglecting Sutherlandshire. He wanted; to follow up the suggestion of the Prime Minister and colonise our own country, and that could not be done without money.
  MR. T. L. CORBETTcalled attention to the item under the head of
  716
  Appendix: "List of buildings the maintenance of which is provided for under Sub-head B." He said the right hon. Member, if he looked at page 29, would find items such as the Embassy houses at Berlin, Constantinople, Paris, Petersburg and Tokio mentioned, and Legation and Consular buildings in China, Japan, Corea, Egypt, Siam and Zanzibar. What he desired to know was under what heading the Committee could find provision made for the Legations at Berne, Bucharest, the Hague and other not mentioned in that list in the "Appendix." With regard to page 27 he thought they ought to have some explanation of the amount of £7,476, which was proposed td be voted for the erection of a now Consulate at Dakar, and some further explanation of the enormous amount to be voted for the new Embassy at Madrid.
  MR. HARCOURTsaid the item of £26,000 for Christiania would explain itself. A new monarchy had arisen in Europe; with that monarchy this country naturally had great sympathy. It was a monarchy allied to us by marriage, and it was eminently desirable that the British Crown and the British people should be well represented. For that £26,000 we had been able to make a satisfactory purchase of an-extremely desirable house. With regard to the buildings in Japan, they had not been kept up quite to the mark of late years, when the development of British commerce and industry in Japan, which was the result of the alliance, was considered. In the matter of Embassy buildings they were pursuing a policy which he believed to be the right one, of gradually securing freeholds. In Madrid a new property had been bought, the old one being unsuitable in situation and accommodation. The old Embassy house would be sold, and the amount realised would be at all events an asset against the expenditure in securing and equipping the new Embassy. He thought if hon. Members inquired next year they would find the bargain not a bad one. Generally, it was a case of improving an Embassy in a manner befitting the representative of the Crown in a country which was going to be closely allied to us by marriage.
  MR. T. L. CORBETTsaid his point was as to the increase of the cost from £40,000 to £46,000.
  MR. HARCOUETsaid he was sorry he could not carry in his head exactly what the increase was for. He would be delighted to supply the hon. Member with the information later if that would satisfy him. With regard to the increase of £13,000 on the total Vote, that was duo to the necessity of providing a new Legation in Christiania. As to the expenditure on the Crimean cemeteries, they had always had the liability of keeping those cemeteries in order.
  MR. MORTON: It has been declared by travellers over and over again that these cemeteries are not kept in good repair.
  Mr. HARCOURTsaid if the hon. Gentleman could bring any proof of that he would take steps in the matter.
  LORD BALCARRESsaid that the charge of extravagance brought against the Department was in his opinion entirely unfounded, His hon. friend had drawn attention to the difference between the original and revised Estimates for various public buildings. If any Department was to blame it was the Treasury, and not the Office of Works, which made the original Estimate, submitted it to the Treasury, and, for reasons which no doubt seemed good to the Treasury, the Estimate was sometimes deferred for as long as four years. In the meantime naturally the price at which the site could be acquired had risen and the Estimate had to be revised accordingly. It might he wrong that these delays should take place, but he did not think the hon. Member was justified in placing the whole responsibility on the Office of Works. The Office of Works was thy one Department of the service of the State of which it could properly be said that it exercised economy. On the one hand the Office of Works was charged with extravagance and on the other with parsimony. For the Crimean cemeteries last year £700 was voted; this year £300 was voted, an economy of £400. Somebody had said this was disrespectful to our dead soldiers who now lie in the cemeteries in the Crimea. There again the hon. Member did the Office of Works an
  718
  injustice. If he examined the Estimates with a little more precision he would observe that this particular sum was for new works, alterations, and additions. The ordinary maintenance of the Crimean cemeteries did not come under this Vote at all. That item, together with the salaries of custodians and others, came under another sub-head. It was no doubt right, and certainly it was fashionable to attack public Departments, and, incidentally, the Ministers responsible for them as being highly extravagant. He thought the more carefully these estimates were examined, especially in the case of the Office of Works, the more it would be found that the responsible Minister and the permanent officials had studied the interests of economy.
  MR. MORTONsaid they did not charge the right hon. Gentleman with extravagance. What they said was that as there was an increase in the estimates they were entitled to a full explanation, because in many cases it was the fault of the officials in making the original estimates.
  Vote agreed to.
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That a sum not exceeding £8,400 be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on March 31st, 1907, for Osborne."
  MR. MORTONasked why the convalescent home at Osborne was used only for officers, lie thought Tommy Atkins ought to have the benefit of it as well as the officers.
  MR. STANLEY WILSONsaid the whole of this Vote showed a considerable increase, and some explanation was necessary. He thought it was the right hon. Gentleman's duty to give the Committee some explanation of the various increases in the expenditure upon the different items of this Vote.
  MR. HARCOURTin reply to the hon. Member for Sutherland said that Osborne was not available for private soldiers. The estate was presented to the nation for specified purposes set out in the Act of 1902 for the benefit of officers of the

  719
  naval and military services and others. An item of £850 for work incident to the discontinuance of the generation of electric current and the transfer to a supply from the local company's mains would ultimately effect a saving of £150 a year. He thought that was a good bargain for the taxpayer.
  Vote agreed to.
  4. Motion made, and Question proposed, "That a sum not exceeding £426,000, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on March 31st, 1907, for the Customs, Inland Revenue, Post Office, and Post Office Telegraph Buildings in Great Britain, and certain Post Offices abroad, including Furniture, Fuel, and sundry Miscellaneous Services."
  MR. STANLEY WILSONsaid that this Vote showed a decrease in one item; there were also several increases. With regard to the Post Office buildings he found that whilst the expenditure upon alterations had fallen, maintenance had increased from £57,850 to £62,650. He thought that was an item which required the careful attention of the right hon. Gentleman. There were several other items in which increases had occurred and to which he desired to call the attention of the First Commissioner.
  MR. HARCOURTsaid the increases wore mainly due to variations from original estimates in the course of extensions and adaptations of old Post Office buildings.
  MR. MORTONdrew attention to several increases in expenditure and asked for some information about the new power station at Blackfriars.
  MR. HARCOURTsaid the increase were due to alterations from the original estimates, which was not an unusual thing in connection with the erection of new buildings.
  MR. AKEES-DOUGLAShoped attention would be given to the post office at Canterbury, now quite inadequate in its accommodation. He had frequently directed the attention of the Government to this matter.
  MR. HARCOURTsaid he would make inquiry and inform the right hon. Gentleman of the result. Certainly the city should be well provided, if only as a testimonial to its Member, from whom had emanated so many suggestions for postal reform.
  Question put.
  The Committee divided:—Ayes, 234; Noes, 26. (Division List No. 81.)

  AYES.

  Abraham, William (Cork, N.E.

  Bramsdon, T. A.

  Cremer, William Randal

  Abraham, William (Rhondda)

  Brigg, John

  Crooks, William

  Acland, Francis Dyke

  Bright, J. A.

  Devlin, Charles Ramsay(Galwy

  Ainsworth, John Stirling

  Brocklehurst, W. D.

  Dickinson, W.H.(St, Pancras, N

  Alden, Percy

  Brodie, H. C.

  Dobson, Thomas W.

  Allen, A. Acland (Christchurch)

  Brooke, Stopford

  Dolan, Charles Joseph

  Allen, Charles P. (Stroud)

  Burke, E. Haviland.

  Duckworth, James

  Armstrong, W. C. Heaton

  Burns, Rt. Hon. John

  Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness

  Astbury, John Meir

  Burnyeat, J. D. W.

  Dunn, A. Edward (Camborne)

  Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth)

  Byles, William Pollard

  Edwards, Enoch (Hanley)

  Baker, Joseph A. (Finsbury, E.)

  Cairns, Thomas

  Elibank, Master of

  Balfour, Robert (Lanark)

  Cameron, Robert

  Erskine, David C.

  Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight)

  Causton,Rt.Hn.RichardKnight

  Esmonde, Sir Thomas

  Barlow, Percy (Bedford)

  Cawley, Frederick

  Eve, Harry Trelawney

  Barnes, G. N.

  Chance, Frederick William

  Fenwick, Charles

  Barran, Rowland Hirst

  Cheetham, John Frederick

  Findlay, Alexander

  Barry, B. (Cork, S.)

  Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R.

  Flavin, Michael Joseph

  Beaumont, W. C. B. (Hexham)

  Clancy, John Joseph

  Flynn, James Christopher

  Bell, Richard

  Clarke, C. Goddard (Peckham)

  Fullerton, Hugh

  Bellairs, Carlyon

  Cleland, J. W.

  Gibb, James (Harrow)

  Benn, W. (T'w'r Hamlets.S.Geo

  Clough, W.

  Gill, A. H.

  Bennett, E. N.

  Clynes, J. R.

  Ginnell, L.

  Bertram, Julius

  Cobbold, Felix Thornley

  Glendinning, R. G.

  Bethell, T. R. (Essex, Maldon)

  Collins, Stephen (Lambeth)

  Goddard, Daniel Ford

  Billson, Alfred

  Collins, Sir Wm.J.(S.PancrasW

  Grant, Corrie

  Bolton,T.D.(Derbyshire, N.E.)

  Cotton, Sir H. J. S.

  Greenwood, Hamar (York)

  Gulland, John W.

  M'Kean, John

  Roberts, G. H. (Norwich)

  Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

  M'Kenna, Reginald

  Robinson, S.

  Halpin, J.

  K'Killop, W.

  Rowlands, J.

  Hammond, John

  M'Laren, H. D. (Stafford, W.)

  Runciman, Walter

  Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Lewis

  M'Micking, Major G.

  Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel)

  Hardie.J. Keir(Merthyr Tydvil)

  Maddison, Frederick

  Scott,A.H.(Ashton underLyne

  Hart-Davies, T.

  Manfield, Harry (Northant)

  Sears, J. E.

  Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale)

  Marks,G.Croydon (Launceston)

  Seddon, J.

  Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth)

  Masterman, C. F. G.

  Shackleton, David James

  Haworth, Arthur A.

  Meagher, Michael

  Sheehan, Daniel Daniel

  Hayden, John Patrick

  Meehan, Patrick A.

  Shipman, Dr. John G.

  Hazelton, Richard

  Menzies, Walter

  Silcock, Thomas Ball

  Henderson, Arthur (Durham

  Micklem, Nathaniel

  Simon, John Allsebrook

  Henderson,J.M.(Aberdeen, W.)

  Molteno, Percy Alport

  Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.)

  Henry, Charles S.

  Money, L G. Chiozza

  Stanley, Hn. A. Lyulph(Chesh.

  Higham, John Sharp

  Morse, L. L.

  Steadman, W. C.

  Hobart, Sir Robert

  Morton, Alpheus Cleophas

  Stewart, Halley (Greenock)

  Hodge, John

  Murnaghan, George

  Stewart-Smith, D. (Kendal)

  Hogan, Michael

  Murphy, John

  Strachey, Sir Edward

  Horniman, Emslie John

  Myer, Horatio

  Sullivan, Donal

  Hudson, Walter

  Newnes, F. (Notts, Bassetlaw

  Summerbell, T.

  Jackson, R. S.

  Nicholls, George

  Sutherland, J. E.

  Jacoby, James Alfred

  Nicholson,CharlesN.(Doncast'r

  Thompson, J.W. H.(Somerset,E

  Jardine, Sir J.

  Nolan, Joseph

  Tillett, Louis John

  Jenkins, J.

  Nuttall Harry

  Torrance, A. M.

  Johnson, John (Gateshead)

  O'Brien.Kendal (TipperaryMid

  Vivian, Henry

  Johnson, W. (Nuneaton)

  O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

  Walker, H. De R. (Leicester)

  Jones, Leif (Appleby)

  O'Connor,James (Wicklow,W.)

  Ward,John(Stoke upon Trent)

  Jordan, Jeremiah

  O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)

  Ward, W. Dudley (Southampton

  Jowett, F. W.

  O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S.)

  Wardle, George J.

  Joyce, Michael

  O'Dowd, John

  Wason,John Cathcart (Orkney

  Kekewich, Sir George

  O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.)

  Weir, James Galloway

  Kelley, George D.

  O'Kelly,James (Roscommon,N

  White, George (Norfolk)

  Kennedy, Vincent Paul

  O'Malley, William

  White, Luke (York, E.R.)

  Kilbride, Denis

  O'Mara, James

  White, Patrick (Meath, North)

  King, Alfred John (Knutsford)

  O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

  Whitehead, Rowland

  Laidlaw, Robert

  O'Shee, James John

  Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

  Lamb, Ernest H. (Rochester)

  Parker, James (Halifax)

  Wiles, Thomas

  Lamont, Norman

  Pearce, Robert (Staffs., Leek)

  Wilkie, Alexander

  Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, W.)

  Pearce, William (Limehouse)

  Williams, J. (Glamorgan)

  Leese,Sir Joseph F.(Accrington

  Pickersgill, Edward Hare

  Williams, W. L. (Carmarthen)

  Lever, A. Levy(Essex,Harwich

  Power, Patrick Joseph

  Williamson,A.(Elgin and Nairn

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Price, C. E. (Edinb'gh.Central)

  Wilson, John (Durham, Mid)

  Lloyd-George, Rt. Hon. David

  Radford, G. H.

  Wilson, J. H. (Middlesbrough)

  Lundon, W.

  Rea, Walter Russell (Scarboro'

  Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)

  Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester)

  Reddy, M.

  Winfrey, R.

  Macdonald, J. M. (FalkirkB'ghs

  Redmond, John E. (Waterford)

  Wood, T. M'Kinnon

  Maclean, Donald

  Redmond, William (Clare)

  Young, Samuel

  Macpherson, J. T.

  Rees, J. D.

  MacVeagh, Jeremiah (Down,S.

  Richards, Thomas(W.Monm'th

  TELLERS FOB THE AYES—Mr. Whiteley and Mr. J. A. Pease.

  MacVeigh,Charles(Donegal, E.

  Richardson, A.

  M'Callum, John M.

  Rickett, J. Compton

  M'Crae, George

  Ridsdale, E. A.

  M'Hugh, Patrick A.

  Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)

  NOES.

  Ashley, W. W.

  Cross, Alexander

  Salter, Arthur Clavell

  Balcarres, Lord

  Duncan,Robert(Lanar,Govan

  Sloan, Thomas Henry

  Barrie, H. T. (Londonderry,N.

  Faber, Capt. W. V. (Hants, W.

  Smith, F.E. (Liverpool,Walton

  Bignold, Sir Arthur

  Fetherstonhaugh, Godfrey

  Valentia, Viscount

  Boyle, Sir Edward

  Forster, Henry William

  Wilson, A.Stanley(York, E.R.)

  Brotherton, Edward Allen

  Hill, Sir Clement (Shrewsbury)

  Wolff, Gustay Wilhelm

  Carlile, E. Hildred

  Houston, Robert Paterson

  Cave, George

  Hunt, Rowland

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr. Watson Rutherford and Captain Craig.

  Coates.E.Feeam (Lewisham)

  Parket,Sir Gilbert (Gravesend)

  Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)

  Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington

  Motion made, and Question, "That the Chairman do report Progress; and ask leave to sit again,"—(Mr. Harcourt),— put and agreed to.

  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That a sum, not exceeding £61,500, be granted to His Majesty, to complete
  722
  the sum necessary to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day

  723
  of March, 1907, for the Royal Parks and Pleasure Gardens."
  MR. MORTONsaid that he had intended to call attention to the condition of Linlithgow Palace or Peel, but he would defer that until he could raise on the salary of the right hon. Gentleman the whole question of the proper maintenance of the royal castles and palaces in Scotland.
  SIR W. J. COLLINSsaid he wished to call attention to an act of vandalism which had been committed on Primrose Hill. Something like a quarter of an acre had been railed off for the erection of a private studio for Mr. Brock, wherein the memorial to Her late Majesty was being prepared. It was a huge unsightly building forty feet high, and there were many persons in the district of Primrose Hill who felt that the amenities of that neighbourhood had been seriously interfered with. A much more suitable and sequestered site for the building might have been selected. His criticism, of course, was not directed to the object of the building, but his constituents strongly objected to being deprived of access to that part of Primrose Hill. Their resentment was not to be appeased by his right hon. friend's humorous offer the other day to paint the building any colour desired. His right hon. friend had shown him a plan of the building, but the building there shown bore about the same relation to the real thing as St. Margaret's Church bore to Westminster Abbey. What he wanted to know was who was to pay for the building, and how long it was to remain there?
  MR. WILLIAM REDMONDsaid he had had representations made by many persons who wished to visit Kew Gardens on Sunday that the gardens were not open to the public before 1 o'clock. He hoped the right hon. Gentleman would see to it that the gardens were open the whole day on Sunday.
  MR. CAVEhoped that Richmond Park would be opened at 6.30 a.m. during the summer months to riders and cyclists. His constituents were very early risers, and could not get their proper exercise when the gates, except the foot gate, were kept closed until 7 or 8 o'clock. The alteration could be
  724
  made at very little expense. In any case he thought the foot-gates might be altered so as to admit cyclists.
  MB. T. L. CORBETTasked how many unemployed labourers had been taken on and given work in Hyde Park, St. James' Park, and the Green Park during the last three months, and what these men were paid.
  THE DEPUTY-CHATRMAN (M CALDWELL, Lanarkshire, Mid.): We are not discussing the unemployed question just now.
  LORD BALCARRESsaid surely his hon. friend was entitled to ask the responsible Minister if he had given any employment to the unemployed.
  THE DEPUTY-CHAIRMANsaid that the hon. Member was quite in order in asking what employment was being given to the unemployed; but he was going further and discussing, with considerable reiteration, the general question of the unemployed, and the Unemployed Workmen's Act.
  MR. T. L. CORBETTsaid he only wished to know how many labourers had been employed in, say, Hyde Park during the winter, and what wages had been paid to them.
  MR. WILLIAM RUTHERFORDsaid the parks cost a large sum of money, but they could not be kept in good order unless that sum was expended. His attention had been particularly called to this matter, and a serious question arose as to whether the parks were being properly safeguarded against the evils with which they were threatened. There was before a Committee a proposal for the erection of an electrical generating station by the London County Council at Battersea. That would involve the burning of additional coal in London to the extent of 400,000 tons a year, and this quantity in five or six years would be doubled, so that there would be 800,000 tons more coal consumed in the centre of London than heretofore. The smoke from these works would have a very evil effect on vegetation in the public parks and gardens of the Metropolis. The Committee dealing with the proposal had had

  725
  before them that very day throe gentlemen of great scientific attainments, who had given their evidence in a very satisfactory manner. The evidence in regard to parks was that this 400,000 tons of coal per annum, which was to be burned in connection with this electrical scheme, would involve the creation of a large amount of carbonic acid gas, because every ton of coal consisted of about 80 per cent of pure carbon.
  THE DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN: Order, order! That is not a question which can be discussed on the Estimates. It is a scientific question. Besides, it is not in order to discuss the evidence of a witness given before a Committee of the House; which has not reported.
  SIR GILBERT PARKERsaid he wished to raise a question which he thought might be answered with the other questions that had been put. He wished to ask about riding in Hyde Park. There were a great many people who; rode in the Park, as he did, every day of their lives, and he would suggest that the present space for their accommodation should be extended. He thought it desirable that the present road should be extended beyond the Albert Memorial towards Kensington Palace. He did not know how much it would cost, but no doubt the right hon. Gentleman would consider that question. He had brought the matter before the notice of the permanent officials, but he now wished to bring it under the notice of the First Commissioner. The road in question would run through a place which was very little used by pedestrians. Indeed it was only used by: people proceeding to their houses in the vicinity of Kensington Palace. He was quite sure that the right hon. Gentleman would consider the question on its merits, and he could assure him that it was of very great interest to a great many people.
  MR. CAWLEYsaid he had often ridden in the Park and his experience was that riders there were decreasing rather than increasing, more attention being now given to golf. Considering the small number of people who availed themselves of the existing riding facilities he thought quite enough money was being spent for their accommodation.
  DR. COOPER*DR. COOPER(Southwark, Bermondsey) moved to reduce the Vote by £100 for the purpose of raising the question of the rate of wages which the Government paid to their gardeners in the royal parks. These gardeners in London alone numbered more than 300 and their wages were only 24s. a week. He thought that was very low and considerably below the standard rate of wages. The men worked during the three winter months forty-eight hours a week and during the other nine months of the year fifty-four hours a week. They could not, on account of the excessive rents, live in the immediate vicinity of the parks, and even when they went to live at a distance they had out of their scanty earnings to pay 7s. or 8s. a week in the way of rent for two or three rooms. On such a wage it was impossible for a man properly to support a wife and bring up a family. Some of them lived as far away as Hammersmith and in addition to their rent they had to pay a considerable sum in travelling expenses. He was only asking the right hon. Gentleman to put these men on the trade union scale of 27s. a week. Under the London County Council gardeners received 27s. and they rose to 30s. a week, but the London County Council, before it paid 28s., asked that the gardeners should pass an examination by the Royal Horticultural Society. The Government ought to be the model employers of labour in the kingdom and should not pay below the trade union rate of wages for this class of work, and he hoped he had advanced very good reasons why they should increase it. He was informed also that there were bricklayers, plumbers, carpenters, and painters in the employ of this Department who did not receive the trade union rate of pay. If this were so these workmen ought to receive their trade union rate, as he maintained the Government should set a good example in this matter and always pay its workmen the rate paid by the best employers. In the case of the gardeners they had no uniforms given thorn, whereas the constables in the parks had uniforms and received 27s. a week. It was true that the constables worked seven days a week, but it should be remembered that they were Army pensioners already in receipt of money from the State. They at all events were better off in respect of a weekly income than the men who did the work of the parks.
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That a sum, not exceeding £61,400, be granted for the said
  service."—(Mr. Cooper.)
  MR. HARCOURTregretted that the temporary building which was now being erected for the purpose of protecting the plans and work of the architect engaged on the Queen Victoria Memorial should have caused so much annoyance in the district. It was a temporary building, and directly the work of the memorial was completed it would be removed. He would, however, try and have the building painted some quiet and decorative colour and endeavour to have some creepers planted round it to make it less of an eyesore in the summer at all events. He could not say when it would be removed. It was put up by the direction of the late Government for the convenience of Mr. Brock and had to be where he could do his work for the Queen Victoria Memorial. He reminded the Committee of the great advantage the public gained from the Committee of the Queen Victoria Memorial and suggested that they owed them some temporary accommodation in return. The cost of the erection of the building would be paid for by Mr. Brock out of the fees paid to him for the memorial. With regard to the opening of Kew Gardens at an earlier hour on Sundays, the hon. Member for East Clare perhaps did not appreciate that the services in the Protestant churches commenced later than the services in Catholic churches. If he were to open the gates of Kew Gardens before one o'clock they would be opened only for people who did not attend the Protestant churches, and the gardeners and attendants would be deprived of the opportunity of attending church. He did not see his way to opening the gardens earlier than one o'clock on Sundays. Nor could he see his way to open the gates of Richmond Park earlier than 7 a.m. No doubt it inflicted a great hardship on the hon. Member for Kingston, who as an early riser desired to go into the park at an earlier hour, but to open the gates earlier than 7 a.m. would inflict a greater hardship on the park keepers whose hours were quite long enough already. He would consider the question of adapting some of the park gates for the admission of cycles. With regard to the wages paid to the unemployed in Hyde Park he could give
  728
  no information on the point. They were not employed by him. All he did was to approach the Central Committee of the unemployed and point out a field in which they might employ some of these men if they chose to pay them. He further said in order that the Central Committee should not be put to any greater expense than the payment of the men, he would find sufficient out of the margin of some Vote or other to pay for the persons employed to supervise and overlook the men while at their work. They were employed in digging gravel and in removing railings, the removal of which had greatly added to the beauty of the park, and as he had been able to utilise those railings in railing off a spot near Kingston Gate, in Richmond Park, where there had been a certain amount of danger from swerving carriages to the foot passengers the expenditure had not been an unremunerative one. He had issued a memorandum on the subject of electric generating stations, and had asked the Select Committees to receive two or three witnesses as being suitable to assist in their inquiry, and he had also suggested a clause for insertion in private Bills. He regretted the tone assumed by the hon. Member for the West Derby Division: of Liverpool about one of these witnesses who, at his request, had tendered himself to give evidence. The hon. Member thought that this witness might have read the Bill. There was no compulsion on the witness to read the Bill. He appeared before, the Committee merely to give information as to the effects of combustion, and had no concern with the particular clause of the Bill. It was not encouraging either to a Minister or to experts asked to give information to the House and to its Committees if they were to be treated with such scant consideration by the members before whom they appeared. The hon. Member for Gravesend had asked for an extension of facilities for riding beyond Hyde Park. Personally he was hostile to the idea of extending Rotten Row through Kensington Gardens, and he would never consent. If it were extended he believed that the ancient and historic calm of Kensington Gardens; would be destroyed. If riders were allowed to go there, carriage and motorcar traffic would follow, and he saw no, reason why the riders should have any

  729
  special facilities. At the present time this beautiful old-world park and gardens were devoted mainly to the pleasure and happiness of the children who were, except perhaps from a few decayed trees, subject to no danger whatever. He should be very sorry to see riders and carriages going through Kensington Gardens, and certainly would not be inclined to ask the Committee to authorise an extension for that purpose. As to the bricklayers and other workmen not being paid the current rate of wages, he could not believe from the inquiries he had made that the case had been fairly represented, and he would like to receive further information from the hon. Member. The "trade union rate of wages" was not a phrase he was permitted to use by the Resolution of the House, and he could only act on the strict phraseology of the fair wages Resolution. He had received memorials from the park labourers and gardeners as to their wages, and he had considered them very carefully. He had been released from the pressure of the Committee upon the subject, for which he was very glad, because the Department wished the park labourers to understand and to know that these questions affecting them were considered without reference to political considerations. He proposed to raise the wages of the park labourers of London on and after July 1st, from 24s. to 27s. a week, which was the rate of the London County Council and of the best employers. In the country the rise would be from 21s. to 23s. a week. For gangers and foremen there would be a similar increase. The wages of park-keepers in the country would be raised from 24s. to 25s., and of sergeant-keepers from 27s. to 28s. a week. These two classes were pensionable men, it should be remembered. He hoped this extension of wages to what he believed to be a fair and reasonable scale, and which put the Government in the position of the best employer, would satisfy not only the Committee, but the men themselves, and that the men would reciprocate by giving their best work.
  DR. COOPERsaid he desired to withdraw his Motion after the right hon.; Gentleman's satisfactory statement.
  Motion, by leave, withdrawn.
  Original Question again proposed.
  MR. WILLIAM RUTHERFORDsaid they could compliment the right hon. Gentlemen not only on his courteous replies to most of the queries, but also on the immense amount of knowledge and minute care which he had evidently given to every branch of his Department. But he thought the right hon. Gentlemen was scarcely fair to him just now with reference to the maintenance of the royal parks. His point was that there was a certain Department in charge of these parks, and the evidence they had was that these parks had been suffering very severely of late years, and that it was almost impossible now to grow some trees which used to be grown with great facility. The sycamore could not now be grown in Hyde Park with a reasonable chance of success. That was not the case some ten or fifteen years ago. There was a number of other instances of the kind. The evidence they had as to the condition of the parks was exceedingly valuable, and the right hon. Gentleman was to be congratulated upon having sent three gentlemen to-day to a Committee to give scientific evidence of great importance. A counsel, however, before the Committee was unfortunately able to take away a very large portion of the weight of these gentlemen's evidence by asking whether they had read the Bill, and the witnesses were obliged to say they had not.
  MR. MADDISON: On a point of order; Mr. Caldwell, when in the chair, distinctly ruled out of order the course the hon. Gentleman is now pursuing.
  THE CHAIRMAN: I do not think it is at all usual to refer to proceedings of a Committee.
  MR. WILLIAM RUTHERFORDsaid he had no intention of referring to the proceedings of the Committee with a view of commenting on thorn in any way, but the salary of one of the witnesses to whom he was referring was in this Vote, and all he was saying was that it was a good thing these officials were watching projects and were prepared to go before a Committee of this House to look after the interest of the parks.
  MR. MADDISON: I rise to a point of order. You, Sir, ruled it was irregular to refer to a Committee's proceedings, and the very matter the hon. Gentleman is now pursuing has been distinctly ruled out of order by your predecessor in the Chair, and I ask whether you are going to uphold that ruling or not.
  THE CHAIRMANsaid he must make it perfectly clear that it was not in order to ask him about the ruling of the Deputy-Chairman; but he had told the hon. Gentleman it was not usual to refer to the proceedings of a Committee, and he must ask him to desist.
  MR. WILLIAM RUTHERFORDsaid his anxiety was to see that these parks were preserved in the best manner possible, and his object was to compliment the right hon. Gentleman upon having taken the course he had in sending these scientific witnesses before the Committee.
  LORD R. CECILappealed for an assurance that Mr. Brock's, studio would be removed at the very earliest moment. He would also like to know if the Government contemplated taking any steps to reduce the amount of black smoke which was so seriously affecting the shrubs and plants.
  MR. HAECOURTreplied that Mr. Brock's temporary studio would be, removed so soon as the great work was finished upon which Mr. Brock was now engaged. As to the destruction of trees and shrubs in the park by smoke, he had prepared a clause, which he hoped would be inserted in the Bill now before the Committee, so as to provide that only the best coal should be used and treated so as to reduce the amount of smoke.
  MR. T. L. CORBETTsaid he observed that the First Commissioner of Works had promised to raise gardeners' wages from 24s. to 27s. a week, What would that cost? He thought they ought to know exactly what they were doing before they I consented to this new arrangement.
  MR. WILLIAM REDMONDthought it was time for somebody to call attention
  732
  to the tactics being pursued by the Opposition. About ten months ago there was the strongest possible complaint made of the treatment of the gardeners, and when the right hon. Gentleman, in one of the most satisfactory statements they had heard for a long time, told the Committee that he was about to bring these wages up to the rate paid by the London County Council and other employers, the hon. Member for North Down at once found fault on the ground that it would make a considerable increase in the cost. He hoped that those who were in favour of the payment of a fair and reasonable wage for Government employees in the parks and elsewhere would take note of the fact that directly the statement was made that a fair and reasonable rate of wages would be paid to the gardeners in future a quibbling point, was raised by the hon. Member for North Down. He did not mind hon. Members making a fair amount of criticism, because he had done the same thing himself, but when they secured a satisfactory reply in the interests of the work-people, even in days when obstruction was fashionable, they were always satisfied with such concessions. He thought the First Commissioner had met the points raised in a conciliatory spirit, and in a way which during his twenty-three years experience in the House of Commons he had never before seen equalled. The right hon. Gentleman was kind enough, in reply to a question, to state that a certain arrangement had been made in regard to the opening of Kew Gardens out of consideration for the religious susceptibilities of certain people. He accepted that statement and withdrew his objection, because there was no member of the Committee who had greater respect for the religious susceptibilities of all denominations than he had himself. He hoped that during the whole of the present session the utmost consideration would be shown to religious susceptibilities, not only in this matter, but also in reference to other more important matters.
  SIR GILBERT PARKERdesired information as to the number of Volunteer corps that had availed themselves of the permission to drill in Richmond Park. Three years ago, under the pressure of a good many Volunteer corps he urged the then First Commissioner of Works to

  733
  open Richmond Park under certain restrictions to Volunteer corps to carry out their evolutions on certain days in the week. That permission was granted, but doubts were presented then as to the advisability of this course. Had this action been justified by the results?
  COLONEL LEGGEasked what was to be done with what used to be the deputy-ranger's house in Hyde Park. He also asked the First Commissioner to do what he could to prevent demonstrations taking place when the grass was growing. Hyde Park was a favourite place for demonstrations, and he gathered from what he read occasionally that the demonstrations wore intended to overawe the dwellers in Park Lane whom he had the honour of representing. He could assure the Committe that those demonstrations did not overawe them. On the contrary they welcomed their friends there. He suggested that the First Commissioner of Works should ask the organisers of the demonstrations not to hold them just at the time when the grass was growing. He hoped the hon. Member for Woolwich and his friends would boar in mind that that was not the best time to go there. He wished to know why Storey's Gate had been removed.
  MR. T. L. CORBETTsaid the hon. Member for East Clare had for obvious reasons attacked him as if he were in favour of keeping the wages of the gardeners at 24s. instead of their being increased to 27s. He believed the announcement of the First Commissioner would be welcomed in every part of the Committee, and he simply asked whether he could state what the annual cost of that increase would be. He thought that was a fair and legitimate question to ask, and it was a most unfair inference from his question that he was opposed to the wages being raised.
  MR. WILLIAM REDMOND: I admit I was mistaken. I see now that the hon. Gentleman's object all this evening— although I have been so stupid that I could not recognise it—has been to help the Government.
  MR. T. L. CORBETT: I am glad it has at last dawned on the hon.
  734
  Member for East Clare that I, in common with himself and all true patriots, am desirous of helping the Government in every legitimate good work.
  MR. HARCOURTsaid that for nine months from July 1st the cost of the increased wages would be £2,000. For a full year it would be about £2,600.
  MR. T. L. CORBETT: I am more than satisfied.
  MR. HARCOURTsaid that with regard to the question of the hon. Member for Gravesend, he could not say how many Volunteers had used Richmond Park, but as far as he knew there had been no interference with the enjoyment by the public. No suggestion had been made to him that it was necessary to limit the permission extended to the Volunteers. The deputy-ranger's house in Hyde Park had ceased to be an official residence and was now a grace and favour residence. It had been granted to General Sir Stanley Clarke. The repairs were being done by the Office of Works, but an annual amount would be paid by the tenant during a period of eleven or thirteen years which would pay off the cost. The question of preventing demonstrations in the park when the grass was growing he could not deal with. Public necessity and Education Bills and other things did not know the seasons of the grass. They could not arrest the ordinary courses of nature in order that the grass might be free from the excitement that arose from time to time under our present system of government. He gave instructions some time ago for the removal of Storey's Gate, but what had been done did not prevent the possibility of the gate being closed, for there was an arrangement by which the side gates could be extended. Every one of these questions could be raised on the Vote for his salary.
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That a sum, not exceeding £46,000, be granted to His Majesty to complete the sum necessary to defray the charge which will come in course of payment

  735
  during the year ending 31st day of March, 1907, in respect of Royal Palaces.
  MR. WILLIAM RUTHERFORDthought that some explanation ought to be made by the right hon. Gentleman of the increase of over £5,000 in the Vote for the upkeep of the Royal Palaces.
  MR. HARCOURTsaid that it was discovered that during last winter that it was necessary to repair the roof of the picture gallery at Buckingham Palace, and expenditure had to be incurred in completing the external drainage as well as in carrying on considerable improvement works on Marlborough House.
  Vote agreed to.
  7. Motion made, and Question proposed, "That a sum, not exceeding £317, 000, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1907, in respect of sundry Public Buildings in Great Britain, not provided for on other Votes."
  MR. STANLEY WILSONsaid he noticed that there was an increase on this Vote of £53,000, which he thought required a certain amount of explanation from the right hon. Gentleman. There was a sum of over £13,000 for the new residences of the First Lord of the Admiralty and the Senior Naval Lord. He believed that these residences were to be built at the east end of the Mall. When were they to be commenced, and when would the road from the Mall be opened into Trafalgar Square? Where was Mr. Watts' statue "Physical Energy" to be erected? There was an item for a Mercantile Marine Office at Newcastle-on-Tyne. The original estimate was £4,200, the revised estimate was £5,200. What was the reason for this increase? Then he wanted very much to know when the new War Office was to be opened, and why there should be such a difference in the original and the revised estimates for the Magnetic Observatory.
  MR. C. E. PRICEdesired to call attention to the condition
  736
  of the Scottish Law Courts which a. Departmental Committee had been appointed to inquire into in 1903.
  THE CHAIRMANinquired if there was any money for the Scottish Law Courts in the Vote before the Committee.
  MR. C. E. PRICEsaid that on page 50 there was a reference to the Scottish Law Courts, and at page 48 it referred to new buildings. He complained there were no new buildings.
  THE CHAIRMANsaid he would hear what the hon. Member had to say, as he saw there was an item for furniture-with regard to the Law Courts.
  MR. C. E. PRICEsaid that in 1903 a Departmental Committee was appointed to inquire into the condition of the Scottish Law Courts. They made a report which the Commissioner of Works had not seen his way to carry out. In the Outer Courts they had four Courts for five Judges, and the consequence was that the Judges had to move from one Court to another. The Courts were moreover in a disgraceful condition. They were only twenty feet by thirty feet.
  THE CHAIRMANsaid he was sorry he could not allow the hon. Member to go on. What he was saying was clearly not in order.
  MR. ALEXANDER CROSSinquired whether it would be in order to move the reduction of the Vote in order to call attention to the condition of the Scottish Courts. If so he would move it.
  THE CHAIRMANsaid clearly that was not in order. There was no expenditure on the Vote for this purpose, and therefore the hon. Member could not move a reduction.
  MR. WILLIAM RUTHERFORDasked as a point of order whether the hon.

  737
  Member could not call attention to the condition of the Scottish Law Courts under an item on page 48—
  " Ordinary repairs and maintenance of public and ecclesiastical buildings, £4,600.
  THE CHAIRMANsaid a question as to the Scottish Law Courts did not arise upon that item.
  MR. HARCOURTsaid if he for a moment might be disorderly he thought he could satisfy hon. Members, as he was acquainted with the circumstances to which they referred, the special needs of the Scottish Courts and the fact that the late Government were willing to consider this matter. He had promised several hon. Members that he would go down to Edinburgh during the summer and inspect the Scottish Courts and see what could be done. He should then be in a position to make recommendations to the House. It had been, suggested to him unofficially that the remedy might be to reduce the number of Scottish Judges rather than to increase the number of Courts. One reason for the increase of the Vote had regard to the Vaccine Station at Hendon and another was the increased cost of a Mercantile Marine office at Newcastle-on-Tyne. The new Admiralty buildings at the east end of the Mall had been "begun. He hoped the roadway leading into Trafalgar-square would be opened early in 1909. As to the situation for the statue "Physical Energy," left to the nation by Mr. Watts, he was inclined to think it would look best at the end of the Serpentine, above the dell. If the difficulty of getting a bronze casting into that position could be overcome, he thought it would be the finest place in London for the statue. He hoped that the new buildings of the War Office would be opened for occupation early next year.
  MR. ALEXANDER CROSSwished to express his high appreciation of the exceedingly courteous way in which the right hon. Gentleman had met the members of the Committee. He wished, however, to call attention to the small amount spent upon the maintenance and protection of ancient monuments and historic buildings in Scotland. In
  738
  England £10,966 was spent on this purpose and only £1,544 in Scotland, where many ancient buildings had been allowed to fall into disrepair and ruin when at a small expense they could be maintained.
  MR. STANLEY WILSONsaid the right hon. Gentleman had not explained why in regard to the Vaccine Station at Hendon the estimate had increased from £28,100 to £30,000.
  MR. WEIRsaid the First Commissioner of Works had not answered the Question of his friend with regard to the Vaccination Station at Hendon. He wanted to know whether when it was finished it would provide all the calf lymph for this country. He rose to call the right hon. Gentleman's attention to the fact that he would have to keep his eye on these expenditures and see that they did not increase. There was an increase of £2,000 in the revised Estimate for the purposes of this Vaccination Station at Hendon, and he thought the right hon. Gentleman should give an explanation as to why that £2,000 should be added to the £28,000 already set down in the original Estimate for this purpose. The Gentlemen who prepared the plans and specifications and got out the quantities ought to have furnished a correct Estimate. If they could not do that they were not fit for their position. He further desired to call attention to the way in which Scotland was treated. If the right hon. Gentleman turned to the Estimate for "ordinary repairs of public and ecclesiastical buildings" he would find that while £83,900 was provided for England and Wales for that purpose all that was allotted to Scotland was £4,600. The a again, in the matter of caretakers, whilst England and Wales took £11,250, Scotland was allowed.£40 only. He desired to press the right hon. Gentleman for some explanation as to the reason why Scotland was given such a contemptible sum.
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That a sum, not exceeding £34,800 be

  739
  granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1907, for expenses in respect of Miscellaneous Legal Buildings."
  Resolutions to be reported upon Monday next; Committee also report progress; to sit again upon Monday next.

  THE ALIENS BILL.
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House do now adjourn." —(Mr. Whiteley.)
  MR. KEIK HARDIEsaid he desired to ask the Patronage Secretary a Question concerning an occurrence in another place. He wished to ask the hon. Gentleman what action the Government intended to take, if any, in connection with the rejection of the Aliens Bill by the House of Lords. This Bill was a small Bill which had passed the House of Commons without opposition. The principle involved in it was the keeping out of aliens who were being brought into this country under contract to take the places of British workmen engaged in a trade dispute. The alien was excluded because he was a foreigner under the law as it now stood, but no matter how poor he happened to be, if he came for the purpose of taking the place of British workmen who might be locked out, he could, without further question, evade the provisions of the Aliens Act.
  The Bill had been discussed last session, and probably hon. Members on both sides of the House thought there was this year no occasion to reopen it. It went to a Second Reading in another place, and was rejected by a very large vote, and what lie wished to ask was why the Government did not put one of its members there in charge of the measure. Two members of the late Government in another place stated they were
  740
  willing to let the Bill be read a second time, provided some member of the Government would take the responsibility of the Bill at that stage. No response was made by the Government to that offer. It seemed to him therefore that the Government had failed in its duty towards the measure. He wished to know how long the Government intended to countenance and tolerate the existence of another place which was totally irresponsible to the country, and had power to make, mar, or mutilate a measure passed by the House which had, at all events, been elected to represent the people of the country. Was the democracy of Great Britain to be a reality or a sham? As things stood it was to all intents and purposes a sham. Were they in another place to ride rough-shod over measures passed by the House of Commons?
  ME. CROOKShad also heard the debate in the House of Lords, which suggested to anyone listening that the House of Commons was non-existent. The House of Lords had got it into their heads that the Bill had had something to; do with protection or free trade. It did no doubt mean protection, but it was the protection of the workman against the sweater, and not the protection I that they talked about, which was the protection of the sweater against the worker. It was a strange thing that this House should be called in to instruct the other Assembly as to what they were to do. He heard the debate, and it appeared to him that the other House wanted a pledge that this Bill should be amended in Committee before they would give it a Second Reading, and failing to obtain that pledge they threw it out. He agreed with the hon. Member for Merthyr Tydvil that it was nearly time they went out to the nation and told them clearly that there was an Assembly which represented no one but themselves, which wasted all the energies of the representatives of the people, and opposed all the reforms that they were trying to bring about, and that so long as the House of Lords existed there was no room for a House of Commons. Then, he ventured to say, the people would rise in their wrath and put an end to that wonderful Assembly.
  THE PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY OP THE TREASURY (Mr. GEORGE WHITE LEY, Yorkshire, W.R., Pudsey)said the Bill to which allusion had been made had passed through all its stages in the House of Commons, practically unopposed, and, as he understood, with the general assent and support of the House. Many of those on that side of the House, and indeed, in all parts of the House, were concerned at the somewhat regrettable incident that a Bill passed without opposition in that House should have been summarily rejected in another place. But he pointed out that, after all was said and done, it was a private Member's Bill, and it was not the business or the custom of a Government to take up a private Member's Bill as a Government Bill in another place. But, although the Government did not do so in this instance, he might say that he in his private capacity, not as a member of the Government, did to some extent interest himself, understanding that the hon. Member for Barnard Castle had not A noble Lord within the circle of his acquaintance. He did not think there was any occasion upon which a Government had taken up a private Member's Bill—not as an ordinary thing—of course, it had been done. But the question of what the Government would do should be addressed to the Prime Minister, and he ventured to suggest that the Motion for Adjournment for the Whitsuntide holidays would afford a convenient opportunity.
  MR. ARTHUR HENDERSONasked if the Patronage Secretary to the Treasury would give an assurance to the House that he would inform the Prime Minister of what had taken place on the Motion for Adjournment. That was, he said, what was done on a previous occasion, and he hoped that the Patronage Secretary would not depart from precedent in
  742
  this matter. He hoped the Patronage Secretary would follow the practices of the late Government and would intimate to the Prime Minister what had taken place.
  MR. GEORGE WHITBLEYsaid he would readily give the assurance. But in point of fact notice that this question was to be raised had only reached him about three minutes to eleven, or he would have endeavoured to secure the attendance of the Prime Minister. In fact he did go to his hon. friend's private, room, but he was not there.
  MR. ARTHUR HENDERSONsaid he did not wish the House or the Patronage Secretary to be under the impression that he desired the Prime Minister to be in his place when these discussions took place. All he asked the hon. Gentleman to do was kindly to inform the Prime Minister as to what had taken place on the Motion for Adjournment.
  MR. GEORGE WHITELEY: I shall certainly with pleasure give that assurance to the hon. Member.
  LORD R. CECILregretted that in this House they never had any opportuntunity of hearing anything about the Bill. He had read the Bill, and his judgment—perhaps quite wrongly—was that the Bill was absolutely unworkable. He had not heard the Patronage Secretary say that the Bill was a good one he did not know how far it would be in order to refer to the Debate in another place, but, as he understood the hon. Member for Merthyr, a speech was made, certain objections were taken, and the Government were asked to answer those objections. A suggestion was made that if some guarantee was given that the provisions of the Bill would be made workable and serviceable the Bill would be allowed to go through. That being so, he could not see that

  743
  any objection could be taken to those who sat in another place carrying out what they conceived to be their duty and rejecting the Bill. If hon. Members desired to abolish the House of Lords, that was an intelligible policy—[Cheers." [An HON. MEMBER: The sooner the better]—but while that House existed it would be a grave dereliction on the part of hon. Members to complain of its discharging its duties.
  MR. PAULsaid he understood that in another place the Motion that the Bill should be read a second time that day six months was not moved. What happened was that the Motion that the Bill should now be read a second time was negatived. He would like to know whether that precluded the Bill being brought forward in another place again and so enabling another decision to be taken upon it. Because, as he understood, a Motion which merely negatived the Second Reading of a Bill did not preclude that Bill being brought forward during the same session or at any reasonable time.
  MR. J. WARDsaid that the real reason why this Bill was rejected in another place was because its promoters refused to give a pledge to allow the Bill to be amended out of existence. What he desired to call attention to was that unless some forcible pressure could be brought to bear on the other House, it seemed that most of the proceedings of this House were going to end in an absolute farce. Either the country was autocratically or democratically governed. Probably it would be a good thing to give the nation an opportunity of deciding whether it was in favour of representative government or government by gentlemen who represented no one Hut themselves.
  MR. T. W. RUSSELLsaid, having heard the Lords' debate, he agreed that
  744
  the question negatived was that the Bill be "now" read a second time, He wished to ask what would be the effect of a similar finding in this House on any Bill, and whether it would not be possible to revive a Bill so negatived at any time.
  MR. SPEAKER: In reply to the hon. Member, I may say that I am quite ignorant of what the rules in another place may be; but, if the same thing should occur in this House as is represented to have occurred in another, there would be nothing to prevent the mover of the Bill from presenting it for the consideration of the House afresh.
  MR. WILLIAM ABRAHAMsaid he was one of those present when the Bill was discussed and passed in this House and he desired to enter a strong protest on behalf of a very large body of working men against the regrettable incident that had taken place elsewhere this afternoon. The hon. Member recapitulated the position of the question dealt with in the rejected Bill as it appeared to the working people of this country, and expressed the hope that the present democratic Government would prove to the country that they were really in sympathy with the working classes. It did not matter what Government ruled in this country so long as it sympathised with the working man and dealt justly with those whom it represented. He thanked Mr. Speaker for his suggestion and hoped it would be possible for the Government to do in another place what Mr. Speaker had just said it would be possible to do in the House of Commons.
  And, it being half-past Eleven of the Clock, Mr. Speaker adjourned the House, pursuant to the Standing Order, without Question put.
  Adjourned at thirty minutes after Eleven o'clock.