§ Considered in Committee.
§ (In the Committee.)
§ [Mr. EMMOTT (Oldham) in the Chair.]
§ Clause 1:—
§ LORD BALCARRESsaid the House understood that the Orders of the 400 Day were to be taken as they were set down on the Paper. He was not in order in going into that matter now, but there could be no doubt that the procedure now being adopted was in direct contravention of what they had been told by the Prime Minister, and therefore he begged leave to move to report progress.
§ Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Chairman do report progress, and ask leave to sit again."—(Lord Balcarres).
§ THE PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY OF THE TREASURY (Mr. GEORGE WHITELEY, Yorkshire, W.R., Pudsey)said the Prime Minister stated yesterday that the Bills would be taken practically in the order in which they were on the Paper, and he (Mr. Whiteley) emphasised the fact when he moved the adjournment.
§ MR. ARNOLD-FORSTER (Croydon)said that created a very considerable difficulty. A contentious Bill, or at any rate, one of very great substance, was put down to be taken and hon. Members were present in anticipation of a discussion. He was in the memory of the Committee when he said the Prime Minister stated that these Bills would be taken in the order in which they were on the Paper. Perhaps the hon. Gentleman would now tell the Committee what departure he proposed to make from the statement of the Prime Minister.
§ MR. GEORGE WHITELEYsaid the right hon. Gentleman had no right to say there had been any departure from the undertaking of the Prime Minister. He would not allow the right hon. Gentleman or anybody else to say so. The Prime Minister said the Bills would be taken practically in the order on the Paper, and he had emphasised it in the evening by saying they would be taken in practically the same, though not the exact, order. The right hon. Gentleman had asked what Bills it was proposed to take to-day. He would tell him. (The hon. Member then read the Orders).
§ MR. ARNOLD-FORSTERsaid he did not accept the rebuke of the hon. Gentleman. The Prime Minister made a statement which every human being in the House understood to be that the Bills would be taken in the order in which they appeared on the Paper.
§ LORD R. CECILagreed with the right hon. Gentleman, and hoped the Motion would be pressed to a division. He did not understand the distinction that was drawn by the Parliamentary Secretary of the Treasury between taking the Bills in their order and taking them "practically" in their order. What was the purpose of putting these Bills down in an order unless they were to be taken in that order? The Naval Prize Bill was of great importance, and they were prepared to discuss it now.
§ MB. GEORGE WHITELEYsaid he had understood objection was being taken to one of the Scottish Bills being ad-
§ vanced a stage, and he was not aware that the objection was owing to the passing over of the Naval Prize Bill, which was in the hands of the Solicitor-General, who was ill and had had to go home. They were, therefore, missing the Bill out of the list, as well as the Marine Insurance Bill, which also was in the hands of the Solicitor-General. He regretted that the noble Lord the hon. Member for the Chorley Division did not make it clear that that was what he was objecting to.
§ MR. T. L. CORBETTsaid the Prime Minister gave a clear and definite pledge that Bills would be taken in the order ors the Paper, and emphasised it by reading out the list of Bills, in which he named the Naval Prize Bill.
§ Question put.
§ The Committee divided:—Ayes, 77; Noes, 353. (Division List, No. 75.)
405| AYES. | ||
| Acland-Hood. Rt Hn. Sir AlexF. | Cross, Alexander | Morpeth, Viscount |
| Anson, Sir William Reynell | Dalrymple, Viscount | Muntz, Sir Philip A. |
| Anstruther-Gray, Major | Dixon-Hartland, Sir FredDixon | Nield, Herbert |
| Arkwright, John Stanhope | Faber, George Denison (York) | O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens |
| Arnold-Forster, Rt. Hn. Hugh O. | Fell, Arthur | Parkes, Ebenezer |
| Ashley, W. W. | Finch, Rt. Hon. George H. | Ratcliff, Major R. F. |
| Aubrey- Fletcher, Rt. Hon. Sir H. | Fletcher, J. S. | Rawlinson, John Frederick P. |
| Balcarres, Lord | Forster, Henry William | Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall) |
| Banner, John S. Harmood- | Haddock, George R. | Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert |
| Baring, Hon. Guy (Winchester) | Hambro, Charles Eric | Salter, Arthur Clavell |
| Beckett, Hon. Gervase | Hamilton, Marquess of | Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert |
| Bignold, Sir Arthur | Harrison-Broadley, Col. H. B. | Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.) |
| Bowles, G. Stewart | Hay, Hon. Claude George | Sloan, Thomas Henry |
| Bridgeman, W. Clive | Helmsley, Viscount | Starkey, John R. |
| Bull, Sir William James | Hervey, F.W.F(Bury S. Edm'ds | Talbot, Rt. Hn. J.G.(Oxf'd Univ. |
| Butcher, Samuel Henry | Hill, Sir Clement (Shrewsbury) | Thomson, W. Mitchell-(Lanark) |
| Carlile, E. Hildred | Hill, Henry Staveley (Staff'sh.) | Valentia, Viscount |
| Cave, George | Houston, Robert Paterson | Vincent, Col. Sir C. E. Howard |
| Cavendish, Rt. Hon. Victor C.W. | Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm. | Walrond, Hon. Lionel |
| Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) | Lane-Fox, G. R. | Willoughby de Eresby, Lord |
| Cecil, Lord John P. Joicey- | Lee, ArthurH. (Hants., Fareh'm | Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm |
| Cecil Lord R. (Marylebone, E.) | Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage | Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart |
| Chamberlain, Rt. Hon.J.(Birm. | Liddell, Henry | Younger, George |
| Corbett, T. L. (Down, North) | Lonsdale, John Brownlee | |
| Courthope, G. Loyd | Lowe, Sir Francis William | TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr. Stanley Wilson and Mr. Watson Rutherford. |
| Craig, Charles Curtis (Antrim,S. | Mason, James F. (Windsor) | |
| Craig, Captain James (Down, E.) | Meysey-Thompson, E.G. | |
| NOES. | ||
| Abraham, William (Cork, N.E.) | Ambrose, Robert | Baring Godfrey (Isle of Wight) |
| Abraham, William (Rhondda) | Armitage, R. | Barlow, Percy (Bedford) |
| Acland, Francis Dyke | Ashton, Thomas Gair | Barnard, E. B. |
| Adkins, W. Ryland | Asqulth,Rt.Hn.Herbert Henry | Barry E. (Cork, S.) |
| Agnew, George William | Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth) | Beale, W. P. |
| Ainsworth, John Stirling | Baker, Joseph A. (Finsbury, E. | Beauchamp, E. |
| Alden, Percy | Balfour, Robert (Lanark) | Beaumont, Hubert, (Eastborne |
| Beaumont, W. C. B. (Hexham) | Edwards, Frank (Radnor) | Kearley, Hudson E. |
| Bell, Richard | Elibank, Master of | Kennedy, Vincent Paul |
| Bellairs, Carlyon | Ellis, Rt. Hon. John Edward | Kilbride, Denis |
| Benn,W.(T'w'r Hamlets,S.Geo. | Erskine, David C. | Kincaid-Smith, Captain |
| Bennett, E. N. | Esmonde, Sir Thomas | King, Alfred John (Knutsford) |
| Bertram, Julius | Evans, Samuel T. | Laidlaw, Robert |
| Billson, Alfred | Everett, R. Lacey | Lambert, George |
| Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine | Faber, G. H. (Boston) | Law, Hugh Alexander |
| Black,Arthur W.(Bedfordshire | Fenwick, Charles | Lawson, Sir Wilfrid |
| Boland, John | Ferens, T. R. | Layland-Barratt, Francis |
| Boulton, A. C. F. (Ramsey) | Fiennes, Hon. Eustace | Leese,SirJosephF.(Accrington |
| Brace, William | Findlay, Alexander | Lehmann, R. C. |
| Bramsdon, T. A. | Flavin, Michael Joseph | Lever, W. H. (Cheshire, Wirral) |
| Branch, James | Flynn, James Christopher | Levy, Maurice |
| Brigg, John | Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry | Lewis, John Herbert |
| Bright, J. A. | Fuller, John Michael F. | Lough, Thomas |
| Brocklehurst, W. D. | Fullerton, Hugh | Lundon, W. |
| Brodie, H. C. | Gardner,Col. Alan (Hereford, S. | Luttrell, Hugh Fownes |
| Brunner, J. T. L. (Lancs.,Leigh | Gibb, James (Harrow) | Lyell, Charles Henry |
| Brunner, Sir John T. (Cheshire) | Gilhooly, James | Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester) |
| Bryce,Rt.Hn.James (Aberdeen | Gill, A.H. | Mackarness, Frederic C. |
| Bryce, J. A. (Inverness Burghs) | Ginnell, L. | MacNeill, John Gordon Swift |
| Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn | Gladstone, Rt.Hn.HerbertJohn | MacVeagh, Jeremiah (Down,S. |
| Buckmaster, Stanley O. | Glendinning, R. G. | MacVeigh,Charles(Donegal, E.) |
| Burns, Rt. Hon. John | Glover, Thomas | M'Callum, John M. |
| Burnyeat, J. D. W. | Goddard, Daniel Ford | M'Crae, George |
| Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas | Gooch, George Peabody | M'Hugh, Patrick A. |
| Buxton.Rt. Hn.SydneyCharles | Greenwood, G. (Peterborough) | M'Kenna, Reginald |
| Byles, William Pollard | Greenwood, Hamar (York) | M'Killop, W. |
| Cairns, Thomas | Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward | M'Laren, Sir C. B. (Leicester) |
| Cameron, Robert | Griffith, Ellis J. | M'Laren, H. D. (Stafford, W.) |
| Carr-Gomm, H. W. | Gulland, John W. | M'Micking. Major G. |
| Causton,Rt.Hn.Richard Knight | Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton | Maddison, Frederick |
| Cawley, Frederick | Haldane, Rt. Hon. Richard B. | Mallet, Charles E. |
| Chance, Frederick William | Hall, Frederick | Marks,G.Croydon (Launceston) |
| Cheetham, John Frederick | Halpin, J. | Marnham. F. J. |
| Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R. | Hammond, John | Mason, A. E. W. (Coventry) |
| Churchill, Winston Spencer | Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Lewis | Massie, J. |
| Clancy, John Joseph | Hardie,J.Keir(MerthyrTydvil) | Masterman, C. F. G. |
| Clarke, C. Goddard (Peckham) | Harmsworth, Cecil B. (Wore'r.) | Meagher, Michael |
| Clough, W. | Hart-Davies, T. | Meehan, Patrick A. |
| Clynes, J. R. | Harwood, George | Menzics, Walter |
| Coats,Sir T. Glen (Renfrew,W.) | Haslam, James (Derbyshire) | Micklem, Nathaniel |
| Cobbold, Felix Thornley | Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth) | Molteno, Percy Alport |
| Collins,SirWm.J.(S.Pancras,W. | Haworth, Arthur A. | Mond, A. |
| Condon, Thomas Joseph | Hayden, John Patrick | Montagu, E. S. |
| Cooper, G. J. | Hazel, Dr. A. E. | Montgomery, H. H. |
| Corbett,CH(Sussex,E. Grinst'd | Hazleton, Richard | Mooney, J. J. |
| Cory, Clifford John | Hedges, A. Paget | Morgan, G. Hay (Cornwall) |
| Cotton, Sir H. J. S. | Henderson, J.M.(Aberdeen,W.) | Morley, Rt. Hon. John |
| Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth) | Herbert, Colonel Ivor (Mon., S. | Morrell, Philip |
| Crean, Eugene | Herbert, T. Arnold (Wycombe) | Morse, L. L. |
| Crombie, John William | Higham, John Sharp | Morton, Alpheus Cleophas |
| Crosfield, A. H. | Hobart, Sir Robert | Murphy, John |
| Crossley, Wlliam J. | Hobhouse, Charles E. H. | Murray, James |
| Dalziel, James Henry | Hodge, John | Napier, T. B. |
| Davies,David(Montgomery Co. | Hogan, Michael | Newnes, F. (Notts., Bassetlaw) |
| Davies, Timothy (Fulham) | Holden, E. Hopkinson | Nicholson,Charles N.(Doncastr |
| Davies, W. Howell (Bristol, S.) | Hope, John Deans (Fife, West) | Nolan, Joseph |
| Devlin,Charles Ramsay(Galw'y | Hope,W.Bateman(Somerset,N. | Nussey, Thomas Willans |
| Dewar, Arthur (Edinburgh, S.) | Howard, Hon. Geoffrey | O'Brien, Kendal(Tipperary Mid |
| Dickinson, W.H.(St.Pancras,N | Hudson, Walter | O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) |
| Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles | Hutton, Alfred Eddison | O'Connor,James (Wicklow,W.) |
| Dillon, John | Illingworth, Percy H, | O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.) |
| Dolan, Charles Joseph | Isaacs, Rufus Daniel | O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S.) |
| Donelan, Captain A. | Jardine, Sir J. | O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.) |
| Duckworth, James | Jenkins, J. | O'Grady, J. |
| Duffy, William J. | Johnson, John (Gateshead) | O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.) |
| Duncan, C.(Barrow-in-Furness) | Johnson, W. (Nuneaton) | O'Kelly, James (Roscommon,N |
| Duncan, J. H. (York, Otley) | Jones,DavidBrynmor(Swansea | O'Malley, William |
| Dunn, A. Edward (Camborne) | Jones, Leif (Appleby) | O'Shaughnessy, P. S. |
| Dunne, Major E. M. (Walsall) | Jones, William (Carnarvonshire | O'Shee, James John |
| Edwards, Enoch (Hanley) | Joyce, Michael | Parker, James (Halifax) |
| Paul, Herbert | Schwann, Chas.E.(Manchester) | Walker, H. De R. (Leicester) |
| Pearce, William (Limehouse) | Sears, J. E. | Wallace, Robert |
| Pearson, W.H.M.(Suffolk,Eye) | Seaverns, J. H. | Walsh, Stephen |
| Perks, Robert William | Seddon, J. | Walters, John Tudor |
| Philipps, J. Wynford (Pembroke | Seely, Major, J. B. | Ward, John (Stoke upon Trent |
| Philipps, Owen C. (Pembroke) | Shackleton, David James | Ward, W. Dudley (Southampton |
| Pickersgill, Edward Hare | Shaw, Rt. Hon. T. (Hawick, B. | Wardle, George J. |
| Pirie, Duncan V. | Sheehan, Daniel Daniel | Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan) |
| Power, Patrick Joseph | Sheehy, David | Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney) |
| Price, C.E. (Edinb'gh, Central) | Shipman, Dr. John G. | Wedgwood, Josiah C |
| Price, Robert John(Norfolk.E.) | Silcock, Thomas Ball | Weir, James Galloway |
| Priestley, W.E.B. (Bradford.E. | Simon, John Allsebrook | Whitbread, Howard |
| Radford, G. H. | Sinclair, Rt. Hon. John | White, George (Norfolk) |
| Rainy, A. Rolland | Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie | White, J. D. (Dumbartonshire) |
| Raphael, Herbert H. | Smyth, Thomas (Leitrim, S.) | White, Luke (York, E.R.) |
| Rea, Walter Russell, (Scarboro | Snowden, P. | White, Patrick (Meath North) |
| Reddy, M. | Soames, Arthur Wellesley | Whitehead, Rowland |
| Redmond, John E. (Waterford) | Soares, Ernest J. | Whitley, J. H. (Halifax) |
| Redmond, William (Clare) | Spicer, Albert | Whittaker, Thomas Palmer |
| Rees, J. D. | Stanger, H. Y. | Wilkie, Alexander |
| Renton, Major Leslie | Stanley, Hn. O. Lyulph(Chesh.) | Williams, J. (Glamorgan) |
| Richards, T. F.(Wolverh'mpt'n | Steadman, W. C. | Williams, Osmond (Merioneth) |
| Richardson, A. | Stewart, Halley (Greenock) | Williams, W. L. (Carmarthen) |
| Rickett, J. Compton | Strachey, Sir Edward | Williamson, A.(Elgin and Nairn |
| Ridsdale, E A. | Strauss, E. E. (Abingdon) | Wilson, Hon. C.H.W. (Hull,W.) |
| Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln) | Stuart, James (Sunderland) | Wilson, Henry J. (York, W.R.) |
| Roberts, G. H. (Norwich) | Sullivan, Donal | Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.) |
| Roberts, John H. (Denbighs. | Summerbell, T. | Wilson, J. W. (Worcestersh. N.) |
| Robertson, Rt. Hon. E. (Dundee | Sutherland, J. E. | Wilson, P. W. (St. Pancras, S.) |
| Robertson, SirG.Scott(Bradf'rd | Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth) | Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton) |
| Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside) | Taylor, John W. (Durham) | Winfrey, R. |
| Robinson, S. | Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe | Wodehouse, Lord (Norfolk, Mid |
| Roe, Sir Thomas | Thomas,David Alfred (Merthyr | Woodhouse, SirJ.T.(Huddersfd |
| Rowlands, J. | Thomasson, Franklin | Young, Samuel |
| Runciman, Walter | Thorne, William | Yoxall, James Henry |
| Russell, T. W. | Tomkinson, James | |
| Rutherford, V. H. (Brentford) | Torrance, A. M. | TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr. Whiteley and Mr. J. A. Pease |
| Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland) | Toulmin, George | |
| Scarisbrick, T. T. L. | Verney, F. W. |
§ MR. MITCHELL-THOMSON (Lanarkshire, N.W.) moved to omit the words "except the London County Council." He said that he had put this Amendment down from a spirit of inquiry, because he felt that the Committee were entitled to some further information. This Bill was another example of legislation by reference, and he never saw a measure with so much reference and so little Act.
§
Amendment proposed—
In page 1, lines 6 and 7, to leave out the words 'except the London County Council.'"—(Mr. Mitchell-Thomson.)
§ THE FINANCIAL SECRETARY OF THE TREASURY (Mr. MCKENNA, Monmouthshire, N.)explained that whilst the Treasury desired to hand over to the Local Government Board all its powers with regard to other authorities, it made an exception in the case of the London County Council, because that body was a lending autho- 406 rity itself and advanced loans to other authorities in London. Therefore it was necessary that the Treasury should retain its statutory control in the case of the London County Council, although it was desirable that in the case of the other authorities they should come under the Local Government Board.
§ MR. WILLIAM RUTHERFORDsaid that the explanation of the hon. Gentleman would be satisfactory if it happened to be an explanation of the clause. As a matter of fact, it was obvious that the county council had no powers in regard to baths and wash-houses, and inasmuch as the county council had no such powers, it was not necessary to transfer to the Local Government Board any powers in reference to the London County Council.
§ MR. CAVEpointed out that there were Acts of Parliament under which other county councils had power to borrow 407 money and lend to minor authorities. If the London County Council was excepted the other county councils should be treated in the same way. He could not see why a special privilege should be given to the London County Council. He hoped some further explanation would be given.
§ MR. MCKENNAsaid the hon. and learned Member for the West Derby Division of Liverpool had omitted to remind the Committee that the powers exercised by the London County Council were under the control of the Local Government Board and did not enter into this Bill at all.
§ MR. WILLIAM RUTHERFORDasked whether it would not be better for the Minister in charge of the Bill to give some particulars of what the powers were. Was the Committee to be called upon to pass a section of such a sweeping character without any explanation? One of the powers was as to approving or not approving of the sale of real estate.
§ MR. RUTHERFORDExactly. He took it that except in the case of the London County Council the power was to be transferred to the Local Government Board. He asked why, in the name of all that was reasonable, powers were to be vested in the Local Government Board in regard to all the other authorities in the kingdom, while in the case of the London County Council similar powers were to be exercised by the Treasury.
COLONEL LEGGE (St. George's, Hanover Square)said he was sorry he could not agree with his hon. friends. Speaking as a former member of the London County Council, he thought there was nothing unreasonable in this clause. He, therefore, would not be able to support the Amendment.
§ MR. NIELD (Middlesex, Ealing)said he had listened with astonishment to the remarks of the previous speaker. He could not understand why, whenever legislation was proposed in this House 408 the London County Council was made a special exception. He spoke as a novice, but not as a novice in county government. He had as much experience in county government as most right hon. and hon. Gentlemen opposite. He thought he might make that claim, as he had been appointed an alderman in his county. That was an indication that, at any rate, he had done something to deserve the position. He objected to the London County Council being excepted, on the ground that it was perfectly obvious that the Treasury in the past had not exercised that amount of control over London County Council finance which it ought to have done. Therefore the sooner this power passed into the hands of the President of the Local Government Board the better. The right hon. Gentleman was one of the practical Members of the Government, and there was abundant reason why the Local Government Board should have complete control over purchases and sales of property by the London County Council. He spoke for Middlesex, a populous county which, ought to have the same rights. What was good for the London County Council was good for the Middlesex County Council. Could any hon. Member say that the finances of the London County Council were in such a condition that the control of the Treasury should be any longer continued? If it was to the advantage of the bodies governed by Sub-section 1 to have the control transferred to the Local Government Board a fortiori it should be in the case of the London County Council, whose financial programme had been so lamentably disastrous from the point of view of the London ratepayer. When they considered the many speculations, and the enormous sum of money flung away annually in the promotion of hopeless. Bills in Parliament and in opposing every conceivable kind of other Bills, he submitted that if any body ought to be under practical management it was the London County Council, which was the spendthrift of all local authorities.
§ MR. MITCHELL-THOMSONsaid that, seeing a number of Members of the London County Council among the hon. Members opposite, he was surprised 409 that no one had risen to explain the reason which had led the Government to adopt the position they had done. He hoped some light would be thrown on the subject.
§ CAPTAIN CRAIG (Down, E.)said he saw no reason why the London County Council should be treated differently from the other county councils in the country. No proper explanation of the powers to be conferred by the Bill on the London County Council had been given. The London ratepayers were daily being bled, and it was due to them that the strongest possible opposition should be offered to increased powers being given to the county council. He did not like to mention the words "steamboats," "Kingsway" and "Aldwych." Kingsway was beautiful, but it was one of the most useless streets London possessed.
THE CHAIRMANI do not think the remarks of the hon. Member have any connection with the Amendment. I must ask him to speak to the Amendment.
§ CAPTAIN CRAIGsaid his remarks could be connected with the Amendment in this way. The Committee had not much information before them as to the powers sought, to be given to the London County Council.
§ MR. MCKENNANo new powers are given to the London County Council. They are to remain exactly as they stand now.
§ CAPTAIN CRAIGsaid his contention was that for the purpose of endeavouring to curb the expenditure and horrible extravagance of the London County Council they should do all they could to carry this Amendment.
§ MR. DICKINSON (St. Pancras, N.)said the London County Council performed some very useful services; but the newest of its services was that it enabled hon. Members on the other side to prolong the debates of the Imperial Parliament. It was rather a curious thing that the one member of the London County Council on the other side who 410 knew anything about the subject at all had announced his intention of separating himself from his Party on this question. The London County Council with regard to its finances stood in a different position from that of any other county council, and for the very simple reason that all its dealings with capital came under the review of Parliament every year. Every year a Money Bill had to come before Parliament on which the whole of the council's actions with regard to finance were reviewed, and the Treasury very properly retained to itself the right to advise Parliament on the subject. If the Government had been ill-advised enough to include the London County Council in the Bill they would have had a very long debate indeed. He hoped with this explanation they might pass on to some I matters of more Imperial concern.
§ MR. RAWLINSON (Cambridge University)said he should not have intervened in the debate but for the speech of the hon. Member for North St. Pancras, which was absolutely uncalled for. He had made an attack on hon. Members on the Opposition side of the House who declined to fall down and worship the London County Council. He spoke, not as a member of that body, nor as an alderman of Middlesex, but as a business man and a lawyer. He wanted to know why the London County Council should be treated exceptionally as compared with other local authorities. He had grave doubts whether it was necessary at all to I transfer these powers to the Local Government Board, but he should have thought if it was required anywhere, it I was in the case of the London County Council. No one could doubt that, compared with any other local authority, the London County Council acted in a most extravagant way. Everyone knew perfectly well that in regard to their steamboat service there was a want of requisite supervision. He had heard no real reason given for treating the London County Council differently from other county councils. The only reason alleged was that the London County Council lent as well as borrowed money; but, not being a Member of a county council, he protested against this privilege being given to the London County 411 Council, which was in no way superior to any other county or district council.
§ THE PRESIDENT OF THE LOCAL GOVERNMENT BOARD (Mr. JOHN BURNS, Battersea)said that the hon. Gentleman had fairly asked for, and was as fairly entitled to, some explanation as to why the Treasury differentiated between the London County Council and the other county councils. He would supply that information with pleasure. The size of London, its population, the large amount of money it had to borrow and to spend, differentiated it from the Metropolitan Asylums Board and the ordinary county councils. The London County Council had powers conferred upon it, derived from its predecessors, not only of spending money but of lending money to local authorities, such as the old vestries, the borough councils, the old school board, the Thames Conservancy, etc., under the sanction of the Treasury. Therefore, the London County Council was entitled to differential treatment, That power was clearly recognised by Mr. Ritchie in the 1888 Act; and the late Government brought in what was practically a replica of this very Bill, and if they had remained in office he believed that his hon. friend the late Secretary of the Treasury would have been doing exactly what his hon. friend the present I Secretary of the Treasury was doing. It was only right that his hon. friend should explain what power Parliament had over the London County Council by virtue of its being a spending and a lending body. Every sum of money which it lent had to be embodied in a Bill which had to come within the purview of Parliament, and that Bill generally passed sub silentio. At any rate, he had never heard any discussion j upon it. The Treasury hail very frequently to put loans on the money market for £10,000,000 or £15,000,000 for Imperial purposes; and supposing such an Imperial loan to synchronise with a London County Council loan for a big drainage or tramway or waterworks scheme, the Treasury would not get its money as cheaply as it might do. These arrangements as to raising loans, more over, were in the interest of sound finance, wise control, and honest administration by both the Treasury and the London 412 County Council. He trusted that with good temper and the information he had been able to give to the Committee hon. Members would allow this Bill to pass.
§ MR. VICTOR CAVENDISH (Derbyshire, W.)wished to take the opportunity of making an explanation. The right hon. Gentleman the President of the Local Government Board had said that he was responsible for the Bill of last year. In introducing that Bill he was only following in the footsteps of his predecessors since the year 1888. But last year the House was certainly informed that if the late Government attempted to press that Bill they would be met with the opposition of hon. Gentleman who were now supporting this Bill. At the same time he hoped that his hon. friend would not press his Motion.
§ MR. MITCHELL - THOMSONasked leave to withdraw his Amendment, but in doing so he wished to take exception to the remarks of hon. Gentlemen on the Ministerial Benches.
§ Amendment, by leave, withdraw.
§ MR. CHARLES CRAIG (Antrim, S.)said that he was very pleased to hear that there was some compromise between the Treasury and the London County Council. There were many men who had a deep-rooted suspicion in regard to the expenditure of the London County Council; and he still maintained that the London County Council should not have exceptional powers conferred upon them which were not granted to Liverpool, Manchester,Leeds and other great provincial cities.
THE CHAIRMANThe hon. Gentleman keeps on talking about the powers of the London County Council, but his Amendment has nothing whatever to do with the London County Council.
§ MR. CHARLES CRAIGsaid he wished to put these towns on the same footing as London under the London County Council. That was why he moved that towns containing over 200,000 inhabitants should enjoy the same privileges through their council as were enjoyed by the London County Council.
§
Amendment proposed—
In page 1, line 7, after the word 'Council,' to insert the words 'or any Corporation of a town containing over two hundred thousand inhabitants.'"—(Mr. Charles Craig.)
§ Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."
§ MR. T. W. RUSSELL (Tyrone, S.)said he rose to a point of order. The hon. Gentleman proposed to remove certain powers from the Local Government Board, and he wished to know if the controlling authority was taken away from that body upon which body it would rest.
§ MR. WILLIAM RUTHERFORDsubmitted that that was not a point of order.
§ MR. MCKENNAsaid that the hon. Member had not understood the purport of the Bill. There were certain powers at present exercised by local authorities, and the sanctioning of those powers rested in nearly every case with the Local Government Board. There were certain exceptions to that rule, however, and in some few instances the sanction was given by the Treasury. The purpose of the Bill was to transfer from the Treasury to the Local Government Board the power of sanction in those exceptional cases, and the questions raised by the hon. Member as to the extravagance of local authorities and as to the misdeeds of the London County Council had nothing to do with the subject dealt with by the Bill. This Bill merely referred to the sanctioning of borrowing powers, and therefore all the questions raised by the hon. Member did not arise on this clause. He hoped that after that explanation hon. Members would allow them to have this very simple and very small Bill passed.
§ MR. WILLIAM RUTHERFORDsaid he wished to deal with this question from the point of view of such a place as Liverpool, where he had occupied the highest position that it was possible for a citizen to fill, namely that of Lord Mayor. This 414 clause purported to hand over powers in respect of borrowing from the Treasury to the Local Government Board. [Cries of "No."] If the clause did not mean that it did not mean anything. He took it that if this clause was passed and if this Amendment was not adopted, in all these cases in which the City of Liverpool had now to go to the Treasury for their consent for whatever they wanted to do, they would have to go in future to the Local Government Board. The sanction in question was sometimes needed to enable the corporation to dispose of some property. It might be only two or three square yards in order to effect a public improvement. Sometimes, of course, however, it referred to the disposal of several acres. In each of these cases they now had to ask for the permission of the Treasury, and no property could be disposed of in fee simple without the consent of that body. He had challenged the Secretary of the Treasury to give an example of the way those powers were exercised, but he had not done so. His point was that as a matter of democratic fairness one authority should be treated in exactly the same way as another. They had 650,000 people in Liverpool, and with the exception of the County Council of London they had the chief municipality in England. Why, therefore, should they have their powers and jurisdiction summarily handed over under this clause from the Treasury to the Local Government Board; and why should the London County Council be expressly excluded from the provision? He submitted as a matter of fairness that the same exception should be made in regard to all other large municipalities. The Secretary of the Treasury had said that the London County Council was a lending authority. All the great authorities of the country were lending authorities, and in Liverpool they lent over £100,000 a year. He approached this question from a different standpoint from some of his hon. friends, and did not wish to throw any reproaches on the London County Council.
THE CHAIRMANThe hon. Member must not now talk about the London County Council. The question is not 415 one referring to the London County Council, but is whether the words "or any corporation of a town containing over 200,000 inhabitants" shall be inserted.
§ MR. WILLIAM RUTHERFORDsaid his only reason for mentioning the London County Council was that another city with which he had been connected for years was treated in an exceptional way, whereas his contention was that it ought to be treated in the same way and receive the same privileges, and they should not in a Bill of this sort single out one authority for absolutely exceptional treatment. If the provisions applied to the Metropolis were good, surely they were equally good for large and important and well-governed cities in other parts of the country. For these reasons he desired to support the Amendment.
§ MR. MCKENNAsaid he wished to point out that the City of Liverpool was for these purposes under the Local Government Board.
§ MR. WILLIAM RUTHERFORDsaid that was exactly what he objected to.
§ MR. MCKENNAsaid the hon. member might object to it, but this Amendment would not alter it. This Amendment proposed to except from the transfer of powers from the Treasury to the Local Government Board corporations of towns containing over 200,000 inhabitants. The truth, was that those towns were already under the Local Government Board. Under the Local Government Act of 1888 there were certain exceptions, provisions in regard to which were left out by inadvertence, so that that Act did not apply to certain old local Acts, and it was in relation to those old local Acts and the provisions in regard to baths and wash-houses and in regard to the Burial Acts that this Bill proposed to transfer the powers of the Treasury to the Local Government Board. The whole argument of hon. Members, although no doubt very valuable in itself, was based upon a misapprehension of the facts.
§ Question put.
§ The Committee divided:—Ayes, 67; Noes, 347. (Division List, No. 76.)
419| AYES. | ||
| Acland-Hood, Rt.Hn.SirAlex F | Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- | O'Neill, If on. Robert Torrens |
| Anstruther-Gray, Major | Faber, George Dension (York) | Parkes, Ebenezer |
| Ashley, W. W. | Fell, Arthur | Ratcliff, Major R. F. |
| Aubrey-Fletcher, Rt.Hon.SirH | Finch, Rt. Hon. George H. | Rawlinson, John Frederick P. |
| Balcarres, Lord | Fletcher, J. S. | Remnant, James Farquharson |
| Baring, Hon. Guy (Winchester | Forster, Henry William | Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall |
| Beckett, Hon. Gervase | Haddock, George R. | Rutherford. W. W. (Liverpool |
| Bignold, Sir Arthur | Hamilton, Marquess of | Salter, Arthur Clavell |
| Bowles, G. Stewart | Harrison-Broadley, Col. H. B. | Sloan, Thomas Henry |
| Boyle, Sir Edward | Hay, Hon. Claude George | Stanley, Hon.Arthur(Ormskirk |
| Bridgeman, W. Clive | Helmsley, Viscount | Starkey, John R. |
| Carlile, E. Hildred | Hill, Sir Clement (Shrewsbury) | Stone, Sir Benjamin |
| Cave, George | Hill, Henry Staveley (Staff'sh. | Thomson, W. Mitchell-(Lanark |
| Cecil, Evelyn, (Aston Manor) | Houston, Robert Paterson | Valentin, Viscount |
| Cecil, Lord John P. Joicey- | Kennaway, Rt.Hon.SirJohnH. | Walrond, Hon. Lionel |
| Cecil, Lord R. (Marylebone, E. | Lane-Fox, G. R. | Willoughby de Eresby, Lord |
| Coates, E.Feetham (Lewisham | Liddell, Henry | Wilson, A.Stanley (York, E.R. |
| Corbett, T. L. (Down, North) | Lonsdale, John Brownlee | Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm |
| Courthope, G. Loyd | MacIver, David (Liverpool) | Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George |
| Craig, CaptainJames (Down,E. | Mason, James F. (Windsor | |
| Cross, Alexander | Meysey-Thompson, E. C. | TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Sir William Bull and Mr. Charles Craig. |
| Dalrymple, Viscount | Morpeth, Viscount | |
| Dixon-Hartland, SirFredDixon | Muntz, Sir Philip A. | |
| Doughty, Sir George | O' Brien, Kendal(TipperaryMid | |
| NOES. | ||
| Abraham, William (Cork, N.E. | Armitage, R. | Baker, Joseph A. (Finsbury, E |
| Abraham, William (Rhondda) | Ashton, Thomas Gair | Balfour, Robert (Lanark) |
| Acland, Francis Dyke | Asquith, Rt.Hon.Herbt. Henry | Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight) |
| Adkins, W. Ryland | Astbury, John Meir | Barlow, Percy (Bedford) |
| Alden, Percy | Atherley-Jones, L. | Barnard, E. B. |
| Allen, A.Acland (Christchurch) | Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth) | Barnes, G. N. |
| Barry, E. (Cork, S.) | Ellis, Rt. Hon. John Edward | King, Alfred John (Knutsford) |
| Beauchamp, E. | Erskine, David C. | Laidlaw, Robert |
| Beaumont, Hubert(Eastbourne | Esmonde, Sir Thomas | Lamb, Ernest H. (Rochester |
| Beaumont, W. C. B. (Hexham) | Evans, Samuel T. | Lambert, George |
| Bell, Richard | Eve, Harry Trelawney | Lamont, Norman |
| Bellairs, Carlyon | Everett, R. Lacey | Law, Hugh Alexander |
| Benn, JohnWilliams(Dovonp'rt | Faber, G. H. (Boston) | Lawson, Sir Wilfrid |
| Benn, W.(T'w'rHamlets,S.Geo. | Fenwick, Charles | Layland-Barratt, Francis |
| Bennett, E. N. | Ferens, T. R. | Leese, Sir JosephF.(Accrington |
| Berridge, T. H. D. | Ferguson, R. C. Munro | Lehmann, R. C. |
| Billson, Alfred | Fiennes, Hon. Eustace | Lever, W. H. (Cheshire, Wirral |
| Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine | Findlay, Alexander | Levy, Maurice |
| Black, ArthurW.(Bedfordshire | Flavin, Michael Joseph | Lewis, John Herbert |
| Boland, John | Fuller, John Michael F. | Lloyd-George, Rt. Hon. David |
| Bolton, T.D.(Derbyshire,N.E.) | Fullerton, Hugh | Lough, Thomas |
| Boulton, A. C. F. (Ramsey) | Gibb, James, (Harrow) | Lundon, W. |
| Brace, William | Gilhooly, James | Luttrell, Hugh Fownes |
| Brarasdon, T. A. | Gill, A. H. | Lyell, Charles Henry |
| Branch, James | Ginnell, L. | Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester) |
| Brigg, John | Gladstone, Rt.Hn.HerbertJohn | MacNeill, John Gordon Swift |
| Brocklehurst, W. D. | Glendinning, R. G. | MacVeagh, Jeremiah (Down.S. |
| Brunner, J. F. L.(Lanes.,Leigh) | Glover, Thomas | MacVeigh, Charles(Donegal, E.) |
| Bryce, J. A. (InvernessBurghs) | Goddard, Daniel Ford | M'Callum, John M. |
| Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn | Gooch, George Peabody | M'Crae, George |
| Buckmaster, Stanley O. | Greenwood, G. (Peterborough) | M'Hugh, Patrick A. |
| Buras, Rt. Hon. John | Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward | M'Kenna, Reginald |
| Burnyeat, J. D. W. | Griffith, Ellis, J. | M'Killop, W. |
| Buxton, Rt. Hn.SydneyCharles | Gulland, John W. | M'Laren, Sir C. B. (Leicester) |
| Byes, William Pollard | Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton | M'Micking, Major G. |
| Cairns, Thomas | Haldane, Rt. Hon. Richard B. | Maddison, Frederick |
| Carr-Gomm, H- W. | Hall, Frederick | Mallet, Charles E. |
| Cawley, Frederick | Halpin, J. | Manfield, Harry (Northants) |
| Chance, Frederick William | Hammond, John | Marks, G. Croydon (Launceston |
| Channing, Francis Allston | Hardie, J.Keir(MerthyrTydvil) | Marnham, F. J. |
| Cheetham, John Frederick | Harmsworth, Cecil B.(Worc'r.) | Mason, A. E. W. (Coventry) |
| Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R. | Hart-Davies, T. | Massie, J. |
| Churchill, Winston Spencer | Harwood, George | Masterman, C. F. G. |
| Cleland, J. W. | Haslam, James (Derbyshire) | Meagher, Michael |
| Clough, W. | Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth) | Median, Patrick A. |
| Clynes, J. R. | Haworth, Arthur A. | Menzies, Walter |
| Cobbold, Felix Thornley | Hayden, John Patrick | Micklem, Nathaniel |
| Collins, Stephen (Lambeth) | Hazel, Dr. A. E. | Molteno, Percy Alport |
| Collins, SirWm.J.(S.Pancras,W | Hazelton, Richard | Mond, A. |
| Condon, Thomas Joseph | Helme, Norval Watson | Montagu, E. S. |
| Cooper, G. J. | Henderson, Arthur (Durham) | Montgomery, H. H. |
| Corbett, CH(Sussex,E.Grinst'd | Henderson, J.M.(Aberdeen,W. | Mooney, J. J. |
| Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. | Herbert, Colonel Ivor(Mon.,S.) | Morgan, G. Hay (Cornwall) |
| Cotton, Sir H. J. S. | Higham, John Sharp | Worrell, Philip |
| Cowan, W. H. | Hobart, Sir Robert | Morse, L. L. |
| Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth) | Hobhouse, Charles E. H. | Morton, Alpheus Cleophas |
| Crean, Eugene | Hodge, John | Murphy, John |
| Cremer, William Randal | Hogan, Michael | Murray, James |
| Crombie, John William | Hooper, A. G. | Napier, T. B. |
| Crosfield, A. H. | Hope, John Deans (Fife, West) | Newnes, F. (Notts, Bassetlaw) |
| Crossley, William J. | Hope, W.Bateman(Somerset,N | Nicholson, Chai'lesN.(Doncast'r |
| Dalziel, James Henry | Horniman, Emslie John | Nolan, Joseph |
| Davies, David(MontgomeryCo. | Hudson, Walter | Norton, Capt. Cecil William |
| Davies, Timothy (Fulham) | Hutton, Alfred Eddison | Nussey, Thomas Willans |
| Davies, W. Howell (Bristol, S.) | Hyde, Clarendon | Nuttall, Harry |
| Devlin,CharlesRamsay(Galway | Illingworth, Percy H. | O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) |
| Dickinson, W.H.(St.Pancras,N | Jackson, R. S. | O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W.) |
| Dillon, John | Jenkins, J. | O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.) |
| Dolan, Charles Joseph | Johnson, John (Gateshead) | O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S.) |
| Donelan, Captain A. | Johnson, W. (Nuneaton) | O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.) |
| Duckworth, James | Jones, David Brynmor(Swansea | O'Grady J. |
| Duffy, William J. | Jones, Leif (Appleby) | O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.) |
| Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness | Jones, William(Carnarvonshire | O'Kelly, James (Roscommon,N |
| Duncan, J. H. (York, Otley) j | Jowett, F. W. | O'Malley, William |
| Dunn, A. Edward (Camborne) | Joyce, Michael | O'Shaughnessy, P. J. |
| Dunne, Major E. M. (Walsall) | Kearley, Hudson, E. | O'Shee, James John |
| Edwards, Enoch (Hanley) | Kennedy, Vincent Paul | Parker, James (Halifax) |
| Edwards, Frank (Radnor) | Kilbride, Denis | Paul, Herbert |
| Elibank, Master of | Kincaid-Smith, Captain | Pearce, William (Limehouse) |
| Perks, Robert William | Seddon, J. | Walsh, Stephen |
| Philipps, Owen C. (Pembroke) | Seely, Major J. B. | Walters, John Tudor |
| Pickersgill, Edward Hare | Shackleton, David James | Ward, John (Stoke upon Trent |
| Pirie, Duncan V. | Shaw, Rt. Hon. T. (Hawick B.) | Ward, W.Dudley(South'mpton |
| Pollard, Dr. | Sheehan, Daniel Daniel | Wardle, George J. |
| Power, Patrick Joseph | Sheehy, David | Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan} |
| Price, C. E. (Edinb'gh, Central | Shipman, Dr. John G. | Wason, John Cathcart(Orkney |
| Priestley, W.E. B.(Bradford,E | Silcock, Thomas Ball | Waterlow, D. S. |
| Radford, G. H. | Sinclair, Rt. Hon. John | Wedgwood, Josiah C. |
| Rainy, A. Rolland | Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie | Weir, James Galloway |
| Raphael, Herbert H. | Smyth, Thomas (Leitrim, S.) | Whitbread, Howard |
| Reddy, M. | Snowden, P. | White, George (Norfolk) |
| Redmond, John E. (Waterford) | Soares Ernest J., | White, J. D. (Dumbartonshire) |
| Redmond, William (Clare) | Spicer, Albert | White, Luke (York, E.R.) |
| Rees, J. D. | Stanger, H. Y. | White, Patrick (Meath, North) |
| Richards, T.F.(Wolverhampt'n | Stanley, Hn. A. LyuIph(Chesh. | Whitehead, Rowland |
| Richardson, A. | Steadman, W. C. | Whitley, J. H. (Halifax) |
| Rickett, J. Compton | Stewart, Halley (Greenock) | Whittaker, Thomas Palmer |
| Ridsdale, E. A. | Strachey, Sir Edward | Wiles, Thomas |
| Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln) | Strauss, E. A. (Abingdon) | Wilkie, Alexander |
| Roberts, G. H. (Norwich) | Stuart, James (Sunderland | Williams, J. (Glamorgan) |
| Robertson, Rt.Hn. E.(Dundee) | Sullivan, Donal | Williams, Osmond (Merioneth) |
| Robertson, SirG.Scott(Bradf'rd | Summerbell, T. | Williams, W. L. (Carmarthen) |
| Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside) | Sutherland, J. E. | Williamson, A.(Elgin andNairn. |
| Robinson, S. | Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth) | Wilson, Hon. C.H.W.(Hull,W.) |
| Roe, Sir Thomas | Taylor, John W. (Durham) | Wilson, Henry J.(York, W.R.) |
| Rose, Charles Day | Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe) | Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.) |
| Rowlands, J. | Tennant, E. P. (Salisbury) | Wilson, J. H. (Middlesbrough) |
| Runciman, Walter | Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan,E.) | Wilson, P. W. (St. Pancras, S. |
| Russell, T. W. | Thomas, David Alfred(Merthyr | Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton) |
| Rutherford, V. H. (Brentford) | Thompson, J.W. H. (Somerset.E. | Wodehouse, Lord(Norfolk,Mid |
| Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland) | Tomkinson, James | Wood, T. M'Kinnon |
| Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel) | Torrance, A. M. | Woodhouse,SirJ.T.(Huddersfd |
| Scarisbriek, T. T. L. | Toulmin, George | Young, Samuel |
| Schwann, Chas.E.(Manchester) | Trevelyan, Charles Philips | |
| Scott, A.H.(Ashtonunder Lyne | Ure, Alexander | TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr. Whiteley and Mr. J. A. Pease. |
| Sears, J. E. | Verney, F. W. | |
| Seaverns, J, H. | Walker, H. De R. (Leicester) |
MR. LANE-FOX (Yorkshire, W.R., Barkston Ash)said he desired to omit the words referring to the Baths and Wash-houses' Acts, partly in order to obtain information, and partly because it seemed to him that this was an instance of very-careless drafting. He had gone to the trouble of investigating the Acts, and he found in Clause 9 of the Act of 1878, which was the Act governing the others, that the approval of the Local Government Board should be substituted for that of the Commissioners of His Majesty's Treasury in all cases where money was borrowed for the purposes of the Act. It seemed to him, therefore, that these words were hardly necessary.
§
Amendment proposed—
In page 1, lines 8 and 9, to leave out the words 'the Baths and Washhouses Acts. 1846 to 1899.'"—(Mr. Lane-Fox.
§ Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Clause."
420§ MR. MCKENNAsaid the proposal here did not deal with powers regarding; loans, but with other powers. The local authorities disliked very much having to go to different offices for practically the same purpose, and it was in the interests of the local authorities themselves that this provision was proposed.
§ MR. LANE-FOXasked leave to withdraw the Amendment.
§ Amendment by leave withdrawn.
§
MR. LANE-FOX moved to omit Sub-Section 2, which ran—
Such power exorcised before the passing of this Act by the Treasury or the Local Government Board shall be deemed to have been duly-exercised.
That implied that certain powers had been exercised without authority, and the Committee required some explanation of this. Very considerable issues might rest upon the Sub-section, because if such powers had been illegally exercise,
421
and they were found out later on, the local authorities might wish to take advantage of the illegality.
§
Amendment proposed—
In page 1, Hue 14, to leave out Sub-section (2).'—(Mr. Lane-Fox.)
§ Question proposed, "That Sub-section (2) stand part of the Clause."
§ MR. MCKENNAsaid he agreed that this clause also required some explanation. It was not known that any case had arisen, but the sub-section had been introduced for the security of local authorities. Powers having been exercised sometimes by the Treasury and sometimes by the Local Government Board, it was conceivable that there might be cases in which the local authority had not received proper sanction. It was not known that such cases existed, but as an act of indemnity to the local authorities this clause had been inserted.
§ LORD BALCARRESsaid it was very remarkable that the hon. and learned Gentleman was unable to tell the Committee that there were any cases of illegality which had made the insertion of this sub-section necessary. It was apparently a roving commission. It made him very suspicious; of course, he did not mean it in any offensive way, hut he could not see why the sub-section should be put in. He thought it would be a dangerous precedent to insert in an Act of Parliament an indemnity for certain offences which in the opinion of the responsible Minister had never actually taken place.
§ MR. CAVE (Surrey, Kingston)said that if there had been no error committed clearly the sub-section was not wanted. If there had been any illegality then this sub-section might interfere with the lights of private persons who were not present to be heard. If there were a
§ real case of hardship brought before the House it might be met by a bill of indemnity. But to legislate in the dark was entirely new; if not new, it was time it should be stopped.
§ MR. MCKENNAdid not think that by the course they were pursuing hon. Members opposite were acting in the interests of local authorities, who might have done acts under the sanction of the Local Government Board when they should have had the sanction of the Treasury, and under the sanction of the Treasury when they should have had the sanction of the Local Government Board. This Bill was a measure dealing with the transfer of these powers from one authority to another. In order to relieve local authorities from anxiety in these matters he hoped the Committee would pass this sub-section.
LORD HELMSLEY (Yorkshire, N.R., Thirsk)said lie could not see the force of the hon. Member's argument. Surely there was another point to be considered, namely, whether it was likely that such cases would occur when they had such watchful offices as the Treasury and the Local Government Board. It was rather a reflection upon the work both of the Local Government Board and of the Treasury to contemplate that, under the very able officials of those Departments, sanction had been given to proposals of local authorities when, as a matter of fact, under Act of Parliament they had no right to give that sanction.
§ MR. LANE-FOXsaid that after the unsatisfactory explanation which had been given he could not withdraw his Amendment. This was a wrong form of legislation, and they were simply legislating; in the dark.
§ Question put.
§ The Committee divided:—Ayes, 298; Noes, 37. (Division List, No. 77.)
425| AYES. | ||
| Abraham, William (Cork, N.E.) | Adkins, W. Ryland | Armitage, R. |
| Abraham, William (Rhondda) | Allen, A, Acland(Christchurch) | Astbury, John Meir |
| Acland, Francis Dyke | Allen, Charles P. (Stroud) | Atherley-Jones, L. |
| Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth) | Evans, Samuel, T. | Lundon, W. |
| Baker, Joseph A. (Finsbury, E. | Eve, Harry Trelawney | Lyell, Charles Henry |
| Balfour, Robert (Lanark) | Everett, R. Lacey | Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester) |
| Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight) | Faber, G. H. (Boston) | MacNeill, John Gordon Swift |
| Barlow, Percy (Bedford) | Fenwick, Charles | MacVeagh, Jeremiah (Down,S.) |
| Barnard, E. B. | Ferens, T. R. | MacVeigh, Charles(Donegal,E. |
| Barnes, G. N. | Findlay, Alexander | M'Callum, John M. |
| Barry, E. (Cork, S.) | Flavin, Michael Joseph | M'Crae, George |
| Beauchamp, E. | Flynn, James Christopher | M'Hugh, Patrick A. |
| Beaumont, W. C. B. (Hexham) | Fuller, John Michael F. | M'Kenna, Reginald |
| Bell, Richard | Fullerton, Hugh | M'Killop, W." |
| Bellairs, Carlyon | Gibb, James (Harrow) | M'Micking, Major G. |
| Benn, John Williams(Devonp'r | Gill, A. H. | Maddison, Frederick |
| Benn, W.(T'w'rH'mlets,S.Geo. | Ginnell, L. | Manfield, Harry (Northants) |
| Bennett, E. N. | Gladstone, Rt.Hn.HerbertJohn | Marks, G. Croydon(Launceston) |
| Berridge, T. H. D. | Glover, Thomas | Mainham, F. J. |
| Billson, Alfred | Goddard, Daniel Ford | Massie, J. |
| Black, Arthur W.(Bedfordshire | Greenwood, G. (Peterborough) | Masterman, C. F. G. |
| Boland, John | Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward | Meagher, Michael |
| Bolton, T.D.(Derbyshire,N.E.) | Gulland, John W. | Meehan, Patrick A. |
| Boulton, A. C. F. (Ramsey) | Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton | Menzies, Walter |
| Brace, William | Haldane, Rt. Hon. Richard B. | Micklem, Nathaniel |
| Bramsden, T. A. | Hall, Frederick | Molteno, Percy Alport |
| Branch, James | Halpin, J. | Mond, A. |
| Brigg, John | Hammond, John | Montagu, E. S. |
| Brocklehurst, W. D. | Hardie, J.Keir(MerthyrTydvil) | Montgomery, H. H. |
| Bryce, J. A. (Inverness Burghs) | Harmsworth, Cecil B. (Worc'r.) | Morgan, G. Hay (Cornwall) |
| Burns, Rt. Hon. John | Hart-Davies, T. | Morrell, Philip |
| Burnycat, J. D. W. | Harwood, George | Morse, L. L. |
| Buxton, Rt.Hn.SydneyCharles | Haslam, James (Derbyshire) | Morton, Alpheus Cleophas |
| Byles, William Pollard | Halsam, Lewis (Monmouth) | Murphy, John |
| Cairns, Thomas | Haworth, Arthur A. | Murray, James |
| Carr-Gomm, H. W. | Hazel, Dr. A. E. | Napier, T. B. |
| Chance, Frederick William | Hazleton, Richard | Nicholson, CharlesN.(Doncast'r |
| Channing, Francis Allston | Helme, Norval Watson | Nolan, Joseph |
| Cheetham, John Frederick | Henderson, Arthur (Durham | Norton, Capt. Cecil William |
| Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R. | Henderson, J.M.(Aberdeen,W.) | Nuttall, Harry |
| Churchill, Winston Spencer | Higham, John Sharp | O'Brien, Kendal(TipperaryMid |
| Clancy, John Joseph | Hobart, Sir Robert | O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny |
| Clarke, C. Goddard (Peckham | Hobhouse, Charles E. H. | O'Connor, James(Wicklow,W.) |
| Cleland, J. W. | Hodge, John | O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S.) |
| Clough, W. | Hogan, Michael | O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.) |
| Clynes, J. R. | Hooper, A. G. | O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.) |
| Collins, Stephen (Lambeth) | Hope, John Deans (Fife, West) | O'Kelly, James(Roscommon,N |
| Collins, SirWm.J.(S.Pancras,W | Hope, W.Bateman(Somerset,N | O'Malley, William |
| Condon, Thomas Joseph | Horniman, Emslie John | O'Mara, James |
| Corbett,C.H.(Sussex,E.Grints'd | Hudson, Walter | O'Shaughnessy, P. J. |
| Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. | Hyde, Clarendon | O'Shee, James John |
| Cotton, Sir H. J. S. | Illingworth, Percy H. | Parker, James (Halifax) |
| Cowan, W. H. | Jackson, R. S. | Paul, Herbert |
| Crean, Eugene | Jenkins, J. | Pearce, William (Limehouse) |
| Cremer, William Randal | Johnson, W. (Nuneaton) | Pearson, W.H.M. (Suffolk, Eye) |
| Crombie, John William | Jones, David Brynmor(Swansea | Philipps, Owen C. (Pembroke) |
| Crossley, William J. | Jones, Leif (Appleby) | Pickersgill, Edward Hare |
| Dalziel, James Henry | Jones, William (Carnarvonshire | Pirie, Duncan V. |
| Davies,David(MontgomeryCo. | Jowett, F. W. | Pollard, Dr. |
| Davies, Timothy (Fulham) | Joyce, Michael | Power, Patrick Joseph |
| Davies, W. Howell (Bristol, S.) | Kearley, Hudson E. | Price, C. E. (Edinb'gh, Central) |
| Devlin, CharlesRamsay(Galway | Kennedy, Vincent Paul. | Priestley, W.E.B.(Bradford,E.) |
| Dewar, Arthur (Edinburgh, S.) | Kilbride, Denis | Radford, G. H. |
| Dolan, CharlesJoseph | Kincaid-Smith, Captain | Rainy, A. Rolland |
| Donelan, Captain A. | King, Alfred John (Knutsford) | Raphael, Herbert H. |
| Duckworth, James | Laidlaw, Robert | Reddy, M. |
| Duffy, William J. | Lamb, Ernest H. (Rochester) | Redmond, John E. (Waterford) |
| Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness | Lambert, George | Rees, J. D. |
| Duncan, J. H. (York, Otley) | Lamont, Norman | Richards, T.F.(Wolverh'mpt'n |
| Dunn, A. Edward (Camborne) | Lawson, Sir Wilfrid | Rickett, J. Compton |
| Edwards, Enoch (Hanley) | Layland-Barratt, Francis | Ridsdale, E. A. |
| Edwards, Frank (Radnor) | Lehmann, R. C. | Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln) |
| Elibank, Master of | Lever, W. H. (Cheshire, Wirral) | Roberts, G. H. (Norwich) |
| Ellis, Rt. Hon. John Edward | Levy, Maurice | Robertson,SirG.Scott(Bradf'rd |
| Erskine, David C. | Lewis, John Herbert | Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside) |
| Esmonde, Sir Thomas | Lough, Thomas | Robinson, S. |
| Roe, Sir Thomas | Steadman, W. C. | Weir, James Galloway |
| Rose, Charles Day | Stewart, Halley (Greenock) | White, J. D. (Dumbartonshire) |
| Rowlands, J. | Strachey, Sir Edward | White, Luke (York, E.R.) |
| Runciman, Walter | Stuart, James (Sunderland) | White, Patrick (Meath, North) |
| Russell, T. W. | Sullivan, Donal | Whitehead, Rowland |
| Rutherford, V. H. (Brentford) | Summerbell, T. | Whitley, J. H. (Halifax) |
| Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland) | Sutherland, J. E. | Whittaker, Thomas Palmer |
| Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel) | Taylor, John W. (Durham) | Wiles, Thomas |
| Scott,A. H. (Ashton under Lyne | Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe) | Wilkie, Alexander |
| Sears, J. E. | Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.) | Williams, J. (Glamorgan) |
| Seddon, J. | Thompson, J.W.H.(Somerset,E | Williams, W. L. (Carmar hen) |
| Shackleton, David James | Tomkinson, James | Williamson, A. (Elgin & Nairn) |
| Shaw, Rt. Hon. T. (Hawick B.) | Torrance, A. M. | Wilson, Hon.C.H.W.(Hull,W.) |
| Sheehan, Daniel Daniel | Toulmin, George | Wilson, Henry J. (York, W.R.) |
| Sheehy, David | Ure, Alexander | Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.) |
| Shipman, Dr. John G. | Verney, F. W. | Wilson, J. H. (Middlesbrough) |
| Silcock, Thomas Ball | Vivian, Henry | Wilson, P. W. (St. Pancras, S.) |
| Sinclair, Rt. Hon. John | Walker, H. De R. (Leicester) | Wilson, W. T. (Weathoughton) |
| Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie | Walsh, Stephen | Wodehouse, Lord(Norfolk,Mid. |
| Smyth, Thomas (Leitrim, S.) | Walters, John Tudor | Wood, T. M'Kinnon |
| Snowden, P. | Ward, John (Stoke upon Trent) | Young, Samuel |
| Soares, Ernest J. | Ward,W.Dudley(Southampton | |
| Spicer, Albert | Wardle, George J. | TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr Whiteley and Mr. J. A Pease. |
| Stanger, H. Y. | Wason, JohnCathcart(Orkney) | |
| Stanley, Hon.A. Lyulph(Chesh. | Waterlow, D. S. | |
| NOES. | ||
| Acland-Hood,Rt,Hn.SirAlex.F | Dalrymple, Viscount | Rawlinson, John Frederick P_ |
| Arkwright, John Stanhope | Doughty, Sir George | Remnant, James Farquharson |
| Balcarres, Lord | Fell, Arthur | Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall) |
| Bignold, Sir Arthur | Finch, Rt. Hon. George H. | Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool). |
| Bowles, G. Stewart | Forster, Henry William | Salter, Arthur Clavell |
| Boyle, Sir Edward | Haddock, George R. | Stanley, Hon. Arthur (Ormskirk |
| Bridgeman, W. Clive | Helmsley, Viscount | Stone, Sir Benjamin |
| Carlile, E. Hildred | Hill, Sir Clement (Shrewsbury) | Thomson, W.Mitchell-(Lanark) |
| Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) | Hill, Henry Staveley(Staff'sh.) | Walrond, Hon. Lionel |
| Cecil, Lord R. (Marylebone, E.) | Houston, Robert Paterson | |
| Corbett, T. L. (Down, North) | Meysey-Thompson, E.C. | TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr. Cave and Mr. Lane-Fox.. |
| Craig, CharlesCurtis(Antrim,S.) | Muntz, Sir Philip A. | |
| Craig, CaptainJames(Down,E.) | Parkes, Ebenezer | |
| Cross, Alexander | Ratcliff, Major R. F. |
Question put, and agreed to.
§ MR. WILLIAM RUTHERFORD moved an Amendment to leave out Subsection 3. He pointed out that the Committee, by adopting Sub-section 2, had determined that all acts done before the passing of this Bill by the Treasury or by the Local Government Board should not be capable of being questioned as to irregularity. It was right, therefore, that the Committee should consider the circumstances under which this clause would be applicable. If any question arose as to its applicability it would arise in a Court of justice, and he could imagine a case in which the Court of Appeal might be asked to determine whether this particular Act applied to the conditions referred to in some other Act or Acts. He had in the 426 course of the last few minutes made a. computation, and he found that the enactments referred to by this subsection amounted to several hundreds. All kinds of questions were bound to arise from time to time in regard to matters that would hardly appear at first sight to have a direct connection with the subject matter of such a sub-section as this. It was proposed under this perfectly new clause to substitute for the Courts of Law the Treasury as the judicial authority which was to give an absolute decision without any appeal, and without any provision for the case being argued on either side. It struck him that this proposal was absurd, mischievous, and novel from almost any point of view.
427§ Attention called to the fact that forty Members were not present.
§ House counted and forty Members being found present,
§ MR. WILLIAM RUTHERFORDsaid that of all the clauses he had seen in the different. Acts they had to deal with this was about the most astonishing. He thought the only sensible thing the Committee could do was to leave out Sub-section 3.
And, it being a quarter-past Eight of the clock, and there being Private Business set down by direction of the Chairman of Ways and Means under Standing Order No. 8, further proceeding was postponed without Question put.