HC Deb 15 May 1906 vol 157 cc445-9

Considered in Committee.

(In the Committee.)

[MR. EMMOTT (Oldham) in the Chair.]

Clause 1:—

MR. WILLIAM RUTHERFORD

said he had no desire to add any observations to those he had already made in support of his Amendment to omit Sub-section 3.

Amendment proposed—

In page 1, line 17, to leave out subsection (3)."—(Mr. Watson- Rutherford.)

Question proposed, "That Sub-section (3) stand part of the clause."

THE CHAIRMAN

rose and was pro-eeding to put the Question to the Committee, when

MR. WILLIAM RUTHERFORD

, interrupting, said he hoped that before the vote was taken a reply would be given on behalf of the Government. He had refrained from repeating his questions and arguments with the object of saving the time of the Committee. He hoped the Financial Secretary of the Treasury would take the opportunity of giving the Committee the explanations to which they were entitled.

MR. MCKENNA

said that he did not consider the hon. Member had meant the Committee to take his argument seriously—[OPPOSITION cries of "Oh, oh !']—but if he had been mistaken, he would endeavour to reply to the argument. The hon. Gentleman's statement was to the effect that if any question arose on this clause, instead of its being taken to an ordinary Court of Law, a new authority, viz., the Treasury, would be called in to decide the point. The hypothesis upon which the hon. Member had based his argument against the clause was altogether illusory, and the result which he had described could not arise. The class of case which would arise would be between a local authority and the Local Government Hoard or the Treasury, and the Treasury would be the deciding authority in the dispute.

MR. WILLIAM RUTHERFORD

said that the hon. and learned Gentleman had hardly been fair to him in reference to his Amendment, and the observations he was obliged to make upon it. He took objection to the clause seriously, and not from imaginary reasons. He thought that a discussion of a clause in such a Bill which might bear different interpretations would be useful. As a matter of fact, between 300 and 400 Acts of Parliament could be dealt with under this sub-section. He could put a case to the hon. and learned Member which would show that the difficulty to which he referred was not imaginary. Let the Committee suppose a question arose as to a sale of land in Liverpool, the Corporation of Liverpool could not dispose of any of that land without the consent of the Treasury, which consent could only be obtained by presenting a memorial to the Lords of the Treasury. But as he understood this Bill, that consent, instead of being obtained from the Lords of the Treasury would in future be obtained from the Local Government Board. That, he believed, might involve expensive litigation as to whether the Treasury or the Local Government Board had consented to the sale. He thought the Clause most objectionable, and he strongly opposed it.

Question put.

Committee divided:—Ayes, 303; Noes, 17. (Division List, No. 79.)

AYES.
Abraham, William (Cork, N.E.) Corbett,CH(Sussex,E.Grinst'd Higham, John Sharp
Abraham, William (Rhondda) Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. Hobart, Sir Robert
Agnew, George William Cory, Clifford John Hodge, John
Alden, Percy Cotton, Sir H. J. S. Hogan, Michael
Allen, A. Acland (Christchurch) Cowan, W. H. Holland, Sir William Henry
Allen, Charles P. (Stroud) Crean, Eugene Hooper, A. G.
Armitage, R. Crombie, John William Hope,W.Bateman(Somerset,N.
Astbury, John Meir Crosfield, A. H. Horniman, Emslie John
Atherley-Jones, L. Crossley, William J. Hudson, Walter
Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth) Dalziel, James Henry Hyde, Clarendon
Baker, Joseph A. (Finsbury, E. Davies,David(MontgomeryCo. Illingworth, Percy H.
Balfour, Robert (Lanark) Davies, W. Howell (Bristol, S.) Jackson, R. S.
Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight) Devlin,Charles Ramsay(Galw'y Jenkins, J.
Barlow, Percy (Bedford) Dewar, Arthur (Edinburgh, S.) Johnson, W. (Nuneaton)
Barnard, E. B. Dolan, Charles Joseph Jones,David Brynmor(Swansea
Barnes, G. N. Duckworth, James Jones, Leif (Appleby)
Barry, E. (Cork, S.) Duffy, William J. Jones, William(Carnarvonshire
Beale, W. P. Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness Joyce, Michael
Beauchamp, E. Duncan, J. H. (York, Otley) Kearley, Hudson E.
Beaumont, W. C. B. (Hexham) Dunn, A. Edward (Camborne) Kekewich, Sir George
Bell, Richard Edwards, Enoch (Hanley) Kennedy, Vincent Paul
Benn,John Williams(Devonp'rt Edwards, Frank (Radnor) Kilbride, Denis
Benn,W.(T'w'r Hamlets.S.Geo. Elibank, Master of Kincaid-Smith, Captain
Bennett, E. N. Esmonde, Sir Thomas Laidlaw, Robert
Berridge, T. H. D. Eve, Harry Trelawney Lamb, Edmund G. (Leominster
Bertram, Julius Everett, R. Lacey Lamb, Ernest H. (Rochester)
Billson, Alfred Fenwick, Charles Lambert, George
Black,ArthurW.(Bedfordshire Ferens, T. R. Lamont, Norman
Boland, John Findlay, Alexander Law, Hugh Alexander
Balton, T. D. (Derbyshire.N.E.) Flavin, Michael Joseph Layland-Barratt, Francis
Boulton, A. C. F. (Ramsey) Flynn, James Christopher Lehmann, R. C.
Brace, William Fuller, John Michael F. Lever,A.Levy(Essex, Harwich)
Bramsdon, T. A. Fullerton, Hugh Lever, W. H. (Cheshire,Wirral)
Brigg, John Gibb, James (Harrow) Levy, Maurice
Brocklehurst, W. D. Gilhooly, James Lewis, John Herbert
Brooke, Stopford Gill, A. H. Lloyd-George, Rt. Hon. David
Brunner, J.F.L.(Lancs., Leigh) Ginnell, L. Lundon, W.
Bryce, J.A. (Inverness Burghs) Gladstone,Rt.Hn.HerbertJohn Lupton, Arnold
Buckmaster, Stanley O. Glendinning, R. G. Luttrell, Hugh Fownes
Burke, E. Haviland- Glover, Thomas Lyell, Charles Henry
Burns, Rt. Hon. John Griffith, Ellis J. Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester)
Burnyeat, J. D. W. Gulland, John W. MacNeill, John Gordon Swift
Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton MacVeagh, Jeremiah (Down, S.
Baxton, Rt.Hn.Sydney Charles Hall, Frederick M'Callum, John M.
Byles, William Pollard Halpin, J. M'Crae, George
Cairns, Thomas Hammond, John M'Hugh, Patrick A.
Carr-Gomm, H. W. Hardie,J.Keir(Merthyr Tydvil) M'Kenna, Reginald
Causton,Rt.Hn.RichardKnight Hardy, George A. (Suffolk) M'Killop, W.
Cawley, Frederick Harmsworth, Cecil B. (Worc'r) M'Micking, Major G.
Chance, Frederick William Harmsworth,R.L.(Caithn'ss-sh Maddison, Frederick
Channing, Francis Allston Hart-Davies, T. Manfield, Harry (Northants)
Cheetham, John Frederick Harwood, George Marks,G. Croydon (Launceston
Cherry, Rt. Hon. R- R. Haslam, James (Derbyshire) Marnham, F. J.
Clarke, C. Goddard (Peckham) Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth) Massie, J.
Cleland, J. W. Haworth, Arthur A. Meagher, Michael
Clough, W. Hazel, Dr. A. E. Meehan, Patrick A.
Clynes, J. R. Hazleton, Richard Menzies, Walter
Cobbold, Felix Thornley Hedges, A. Paget Micklem, Nathaniel
Collins, Stephen (Lambeth) Helme, Norval Watson Molteno, Percy Alport
Collins,SirWm.J.(S.Pancras,W Henderson, Arthur (Durham) Mond, A.
Condon, Thomas Joseph Henderson,J.M.(Aberdeen,W.) Montagu, E. S.
Montgomery, H. H. Rees, J. D. Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, B.
Mooney, J. J. Richards.T. F. (Wolverh'mpt'n Thomas.David Alfred(Merthyr
Morgan, G. Hay (Cornwall) Rickett, J. Compton Thompson, J. W. H.(Somerset
Morse, L. L. Ridsdale, E. A. Thorne, William
Morton, Alpheua Cleophas Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln) Tomkinson, James
Murphy, John Roberts, G. H. (Norwich) Toulmin, George
Murray, James Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.) Ure, Alexander
Napier, T. B. Robertson, Rt. Hn. E.(Dundee) Verney, F. W.
Nicholls, George Robertson,Sir G.Scott(Bradf'rd Vivian, Henry
Nicholson,CharlesN.(Doncast'r Robinson, S. Walker, H. De R. (Leicester)
Nolan, Joseph Rogers, F. E. Newman Wallace, Robert
Norton, Capt. Cecil William Rose, Charles Day Walsh, Stephen
Nuttall, Harry Rowlands, J. Walters, John Tudor
O'Brien,Kendal(TipperaryMid Rutherford, V. H. (Brentford) Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)
O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland) Wardle, George J.
O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W. Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel) Wason, John Cathcart(Orkney)
O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.) Scott, A.H.(Ashton under Lyne Waterlow, D. S.
O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S.) Seaverns, J. H. Weir, James Galloway
O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.) Seddon, J. White, J. D. (Dumbartonshire)
O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.) Shackleton, David James White, Luke (York, E.R.)
O'Kelly,James(Roscommon,N. Shaw, Rt. Hon. T. (Hawick, B.) White, Patrick (Meath, North)
O'Mara, James Sheehan, Daniel Daniel Whitehead, Rowland
O'Shaughnessy, P. J. Sheehy, David Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)
O'Shee, James John Shipman, Dr. John G. Whittaker, Thomas Palmer
Parker, James (Halifax) Silcock, Thomas Ball Wiles, Thomas
Paul, Herbert Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie Wilkie, Alexander
Pearce, William (Limehouse) Smyth, Thomas (Leitrim, S.) Williams, J. (Glamorgan)
Pearson, Sir W. D. (Colchester) Snowdon, P. Williamson, A. (Elgin & Nairn)
Pearson, W. H. M. (Suffolk,Eye Soares, Ernest J. Wilson, Hon. C. H. W. (Hull,W
Philipps, Owen C. (Pembroke) Stanger, H. Y. Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R.)
Pickersgill, Edward Hare Steadman, W. C. Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)
Pirie, Duncan V. Stewart, Halley (Greenock) Wilson, J. H. (Middlesbrough)
Pollard, Dr. Strachey, Sir Edward Wilson, P. W. (St Pancras, S.)
Power, Patrick Joseph Strauss, E. A. (Abingdon) Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)
Price,C. E.(Edinburgh,Central) Stuart, James (Sunderland) Woodhouse,Sir J.T.(Hudd'rsfid
Priestley, W.E.B.(Bradford,E.) Sullivan, Donal Young, Samuel
Radford, G. H. Summerbell, T.
Rainy, A. Holland Sutherland, J. E. TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr. Whiteley and Mr. J. A. Pease.
Raphael, Herbert H. Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth)
Reddy, M. Taylor, John W. (Durham)
Redmond, John E. (Waterford) Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)
Redmond, William (Clare) Tennant, E. P. (Salisbury)
NOES.
Acland-Hood,RtHn.SirAlex.F. Doughty, Sir George Meysey-Thompson, E. C.
Arkwright, John Stanhope Fell, Arthur Morpeth, Viscount
Balcarres, Lord Finch, Rt. Hon. George N. Muntz, Sir Philip A.
Baring, Hon. Guy (Winchester) Fletcher, J. S. O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens
Bignold, Sir Arthur Forster, Henry William Remnant, James Farquharson
Boyle, Sir Edward Haddock, George R. Salter, Arthur Clavell
Brotherton, Edward Allen Hamilton, Marquess of Sloan, Thomas Henry
Carlilc, E. Hildred Hay, Hon. Claude George Stanley, Hon.Arthur(Ormskirk
Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) Helmsley, Viscount Starkey, John R.
Cecil, Lord R. (Marylebone, E.) Hill, Sir Clement (Shrewsbury) Thomson, W.Mitchell-(Lanurk)
Coates, E. Feetham (Lewisham Hill, Henry Staveley (Staff'sh.) Valentia, Viscount
Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow) Houston, Robert Paterson Walker, Col. W. H. (Lancashire
Corbett, T. L. (Down, North) Kennaway,Rt.Hn.Sir John H. Walrond, Hon. Lionel
Craig, Charles Curtis(Antrim,S. Lane-Fox, G. R.
Craig,Captain James(Down,E.) Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Sir William Bull and Mr. Watson Rutherford.
Cross, Alexander MacIver, David (Liverpool)
Dalrymple, Viscount MacVeigh,Charles(Donegal, E.)

Motion made, and Question, "That this House do now adjourn"—(Mr. Whiteley)— put, and agreed to.

Bill reported, without Amendment; read the third time and passed.