HC Deb 20 March 1906 vol 154 cc306-17

Order for Second Reading read.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read a second time."

MR. MORTON (Sutherland)

regretted that he would be unable to move the instruction of which he had given private notice, as it was not in order, and therefore he moved the rejection of the Bill, in order to obtain some promise from the supporters of this measure to remedy the grievances which were complained of. His complaint was that while the railway gave sleeping carriage accommodation to first-class passengers, they refused any such accommodation to their third-class passengers. The third-class passengers at the present time paid all the expenses of working the traffic, while the first-class carriages were always run at a loss. While the company did, as he was told, lose by its first-class sleeping carriages that loss, if any, had to be made up from the profits made out of the third class passengers. This railway came to this House for further favours for the benefit of its shareholders, and he submitted that the Bill could only be accepted upon the company undertaking to give equal facilities to both classes of passengers. Up to the present moment he had not heard that the railway company was willing to offer the third class passengers any facilities whatsoever. Personally he would have been satisfied if they had even said that they would consider the matter; but they did not even go as far as that, and therefore he had nothing to do but to oppose the granting of any more favours to this company until the grievance of the third class passengers was considered and dealt with. He moved that the Bill be read a second time this day six months.

SIR HOWARD VINCENT (Sheffield, Central)

said he rose to second the rejection of the Bill, not in any spirit of hostility to the company, because he was a large shareholder in it, but because he thought greater facilities ought to be given to the travelling public. There had been con siderable negotiation between the Midland Railway, the Great Central Railway, and the people of Sheffield, who were very much prejudiced by the way in which the trains were run at present by the three competing lines, or perhaps he ought to say by the three different lines, because they evidently had an arrangement among themselves of which Parliament was not cognisant. He would not weary the House by going into the details of the Bill; he would only say that he had been requested by largo numbers of his constituents to take this and every other opportunity to bring this matter before the House. He thought that a commercial community of 450,000 was entitled to better treatment than Sheffield was receiving from this company at the present time, and upon that ground, and generally for the purpose of getting some assurance that greater facilities would be given to them, he seconded the rejection of the Bill.

Amendment proposed— To leave out the word 'now,' and at the end of the Question to add the words 'upon this day six months.' "—(Mr. Morton.)

Question proposed, "That the word 'now' stand part of the Question."

COLONEL LOCKWOOD (Essex, Epping)

said he had been asked by the Midland Railway Company to state their case as shortly as possible to the House, and to ask its attention to the Bill now before them. He would first say that he had been informed by the Midland Company that the questions his hon. and gallant friend the Member for the Central Division of Sheffield was so anxious to raise were now engaging their earnest attention. With regard to the complaint of the hon. Member for Sutherlandshire he would say at once that the hon. Gentleman was right in voicing the complaints of the third class passengers, and he might be sure that, so far as in them lay, the railway company would do their best for that class of the travelling public. With regard to the Bill itself it conferrred no new powers on the company. It asked for powers to carry out works which were for the benefit alike of the travelling public and of the railway company; it did not ask for any great powers or the devolution of any great powers, nor did it ask for the application of any new principle. He submitted that the Second Reading of an omnibus Bill of this description was not the proper time to raise such questions as those raised by the hon. Member for Sutherlandshire. He thought, moreover, that of all the companies attacked for not giving facilities to the third class passengers, the Midland Railway Company was exceedingly free from the charge of neglecting that section of the travelling public. In fact, the Midland Railway Company was the first to consider them; they had been the pioneers in the matter of improving the condition of the third class passengers. They were the first company to run third class coaches on all their trains and to abolish the second class. He had been particularly asked to state that the policy of giving greater comfort to the third class passengers would continue to be their policy. The fact that such benefits had been given by them to the third class without any instructions from this House should, they thought, entitle them to some consideration at the hands of the House. They also thought that the question raised by the hon. Member for Sutherlandshire was a question of internal management, and if pressed would only lead to a suggestion that the company were incapable of managing their own affairs, which was an insult to the shareholders. He asked the House to support the Second Reading and to send this Bill to a Committee.

MR. DALZIEL (Kirkcaldy Burghs)

said the chief complaint of the hon. and gallant Member opposite was that this was not the best opportunity for the consideration of the questions raised by his hon. friend the Member for Sutherlandshire. But the House must remember that they were face to face with a situation which would preclude their having any opportunity other than the present of drawing attention to the great railway monopolies of this country and their duty to the travelling public. He thought that the complaint of his hon. friend was a just and proper one, and that before the Bill was allowed to be read a second time the House should have some assurance from the railway company that they intended to deal with these matters. That was not asking too much of the company, and if some assurance was not given then he would follow his hon. friend into the division lobby. He hoped that they would not have from the Government a strong Party rallying call with regard to this matter, but that the Government would leave this matter an open question so far as their supporters were concerned. He supported the Motion for the rejection of the Bill.

SIR HOWARD VINCENT

said he accepted the assurance of his hon. and gallant friend and would withdraw his present opposition to the Bill. But if that assurance was not carried out he warned the railway company that he should oppose the Bill at its subsequent stages.

MR. MYER (Lambeth, N.)

desired to call attention to the fact that the railway companies had combined to defy the Board of Trade regulations in certain particulars. He thought that the Presi- dent of the Board of Trade ought to look very closely into this question in order to find out definitely whether certain kinds of goods should or should not come under the Board of Trade regulations. About eight months ago the companies combined together and decided not to take a certain class of goods except at owner's risk. They met together in conference and resolved to refuse to take such goods as furniture and the like at the company's risk, under the Board of Trade regulations. In his opinion that was a matter which should be gone into very closely, because there were many manufacturers in London and elsewhere who were not able to fight this question for themselves, and therefore the Board of Trade should see that the railway companies were not allowed to continually defy these regulations.

THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES (Mr. EMMOTT,) Oldham

said the House would possibly desire to hear a word from him before this matter was decided. He recognised the importance of the objections against the Bill raised on both sides of the House, and he thought that at the proper time they would be discussed and dealt with. The House ought to remember that in these cases there was always a community of interests between the railway companies and the public, and they ought not to forget that when coming to their decision. He asked the House to take the view that the Bill ought to go to a Committee and ought not to be rejected on Second Reading. The grounds of objection taken to the Bill were well worthy of consideration at the right time. He thought he should point out with regard to the question of third class sleeping accommodation that that question had better be discussed on another occasion. It was really a matter which, if any change was desirable, called for a change of the general law rather than for amendment by a private Bill of this character. The real question they had to consider on the present occasion was whether this Bill ought to go upstairs to be considered by a properly constituted committee, who would go into the question of whether the concessions asked for by the Midland Railway were of a reasonable character. One of the best features about this House was the way in which Private Bill Committees upstairs did their work. They considered with great care and great patience objections which were brought before them, and he thought in most cases they came to wise decisions. The Midland Railway Company asked for certain facilities from Parliament, and the question they had to consider on the Second Reading was whether it was right and proper that those facilities should be considered by a Committee upstairs. What the hon. Members who were objecting desired to do was to say that because some other facility was not contained in the Bill the measure should be summarily rejected. He begged the House, which was a new one, not rashly to interfere with an omnibus railway Bill dealing with comparatively local and small matters. The objections which had been raised, however just the contentions of hon. Members in regard to them might be, were not of a nature to warrant the rejection of the Bill on the Second Reading, or to justify the House in refusing a fair hearing before a Committee upstairs. All that was asked, no doubt perfectly legitimately, could hardly be properly put into the Bill. If the Bill were rejected on the Second Reading, and the facilities which were asked for and which were probably of some importance to the public were summarily refused, it would interfere with trade and also with employment. Therefore, so far as he was concerned, he should certainly vote for the Second

Reading, and he asked the House to do the same.

SIR EDWARD CARSON (Dublin University)

said he could not admit that the principles which the Chairman of Committees had just laid down were the principles which always governed the action of the House, because it was decided the other day on the occasion of the Rathmines Sewage Bill—on which the hon. Member did not give the new House, as he called it, any advice whatever—that the only question which the House should consider was whether a particular district was Protestant or Catholic. There was no word that night as to whether this railway ran through a Protestant or a Catholic district. There ought not to be a different principle in relation to the different quarters of the United Kingdom from which these Bills came, and so far as he was concerned, accepting as he did fully the decision which the House came to, viz., that a district in Ireland must not be drained because it was a Protestant district, he should certainly vote against any private Bill which came before the House, unless he had at first ascertained whether he was voting in relation to that Bill on Protestant or Catholic grounds.

Question put.

The House divided:—Ayes, 202; Noes, 43. (Division List No. 19.)

AYES.
Abraham, William (Cork, NE.) Bryce, Rt. Hn. James(Aberdeen Dillon, John
Acland, Francis Dyke Bull, Sir William James Donelan, Captain A.
Ainsworth, John Stirling Burke, E. Haviland- Duckworth, James
Arnold-Forster Rt. Hn. Hugh O. Burns, Rt. Hon. John Duffy, William J.
Astbury, John Meir Butcher, Samuel Henry Duncan, J. H. (York, Otley)
Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth) Cairns, Thomas Duncan, Robert(Lanark Govan
Balcarres, Lord Cecil, Lord R. (Marylebone, E.) Dunn, A. Edward (Camborne),
Baring, Hon. Guy (Winchester) Channing, Francis Allston Edwards, Enoch (Hanley)
Barker, John Cheetham, John Frederick Emmott, Alfred
Barran, Rowland Hirst Clancy, John Joseph Essex, R. W.
Beale, W. P. Clarke, C. Goddard (Peckham) Eve, Harry Trelawney
Bell, Richard Clynes, J. R. Everett, R. Lacey
Bennett, E. N. Coates, E. Feetham(Lewisham) Fenwick, Charles
Berridge, T. H. D. Condon, Thomas Joseph Ffrench, Peter
Bertram, Julius Corbett, A. Cameron(Glasgow) Fiennes, Hon. Eustace
Bethell, T. R, (Essex, Maldon) Courthope, G. Loyd Finch, Rt. Hon. George H.
Billson, Alfred Crean, Eugene Flavin, Michael Joseph
Boland, John Crooks, William Flynn, James Christopher
Bolton, T.D. (Derbyshire. N.E.) Davies, W. Howell (Bristol, S.) Fullerton, Hugh
Boyle, Sir Edward Delany, William Gilhooly, James
Brace, William Devlin Charles Ramsay(Galway Gill, A. H.
Bramsdon, T. A. Dewar, Arthur (Edinburgh, S.) Ginnell, L.
Brigg, John Dickinson, W. H.(St. Pancras N Glendinning, R. G.
Gooch, George Peabody M'Crae, George Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall)
Grove, Archibald M'Laren, Sir C. B. (Leicester) Roche, Augustine (Cork)
Hall, Frederick M'Laren, H. D. (Stafford, W.) Rose, Charles Day
Halpin, J. M'Micking, Major G. Rutherford, V. H. (Brentford)
Hambro, Charles Eric Maddison, Frederick Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool)
Hammond, John Magnus, Sir Philip Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)
Harmsworth, Cecil B.(Worc'r) Mallet, Charles E. Schwann, C. Duncan (Hyde)
Harwood, George Mansfield, H. Rendall(Lincoln) Schwann, Chas. E. (Manchester)
Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth) Meagher, Michael Seddon, J.
Hazleton, Richard Meehan, Patrick A. Shackleton, David James
Helme, Norval Watson Menzies, Walter Shaw, Rt. Hon. T. (Hawick B.)
Helmsley, Viscount Micklem, Nathaniel Sheehan, Daniel Daniel
Henderson, Arthur (Durham) Molteno, Percy Alfred Sheehy, David
Henderson, J. M. (Aberdeen, W.) Montagu, E. S. Simon, John Allsebrook
Henry, Charles S. Murnaghan, George Snowden, P.
Higham, John Sharp Nicholls, George Spicer, Albert
Hills, J. W. Nolan, Joseph Stanley, Hn. A. Lyulph (Chesh.)
Hodge, John O'Brien, Kendal (Tipperary Mid Sullivan, Donal
Holden, E. Hopkinson O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) Summerbell, T.
Hooper, A. G. O'Brien, William (Cork) Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)
Horniman, Emslie John O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W. Tomkinson, James
Houston, Robert Paterson O'Donnell, C. J. (Walworth) Torrance, A. M.
Hudson, Walter O'Dowd, John Verney, F. W.
Isaacs, Rufus Daniel O'Grady, J. Wadsworth, J.
Jackson, R. S. O'Kelly, James(Roscommon N. Waldron, Laurence Ambrose
Jenkins, J. O'Mara, James Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)
Johnson, W. (Nuneaton) O'Shaughnessy, P. J. Ward, W. Dudley (Southamp'n
Jones, Leif (Appleby) Parker, James (Halifax) Wardle, George J.
Jowett, F. W. Paul, Herbert Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.
Kearley, Hudson E. Pearce, Robert (Staffs. Leek) Waterlow, D. S.
Kekewich, Sir George Pearce, William (Limehouse) White, Luke (York, E. R.)
Kennedy, Vincent Paul Perks, Robert William White, Patrick (Meath North)
Laidlaw, Robert Pickersgill, Edward Hare Whiteley, George (York, W.R.)
Lawson, Sir Wilfred Powell, Sir Francis Sharp Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)
Lever, A. Levy (Essex, Harwich Power, Patrick Joseph Whittaker, Thomas Palmer
Lever, W. H. (Cheshire, Wirral) Price, C. E. (Edinb'gh, Central) Wiles, Thomas
Lewis, John Herbert Radford, G. H. Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.)
Lundon, W. Raphael, Herbert H. Williamson, G. H. (Worcester)
Lynch, H. B. Rea, Walter Russell (Scarboro' Wilson, P. W. (St. Pancras, S.)
Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester) Redmond, John E.(Waterford) Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)
Mackarness, Frederic C. Redmond, William (Clare) Young, Samuel
Maclean, Donald Rendall, Athelstan
MacNeill, John Gordon Swift Richards, T.F.(Wolverh'mpt'n TELLERS FOR THE AYES—
Macpherson, J. T. Richardson, A. Colonel Lockwood and Mr.
MacVeigh, Charles(Donegal, E.) Ridsdale, E. A. Lane-Fox.
M'Callum, John M. Roberts, G. H. (Norwich)
NOES.
Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight) Hogan, Michael Philipps, Col. Ivor (S'thampt'n)
Barnard, E. B. Hope, John Deans (Fife, West) Reddy, M.
Barnes, G. N. Hunt, Rowland Shipman, Dr. John G.
Barry, E. (Cork, S.) Johnson, John (Gateshead) Steadman, W. C.
Bignold, Sir Arthur Keswick, William Taylor, John W. (Durham)
Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas Levy, Maurice Thorne, William
Campbell, J.H.M.(Dublin Univ Liddell, Henry Vincent, Col. Sir C. E. Howard
Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H. Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J. Wilkie, Alexander
Cleland, J. W. MacVeagh, Jeremiah (Down, S. Wilson, John (Durham, Mid)
Corbett, C.H.(Sussex, E Grinst'd M'Kean, John Wilson, J. H. (Middlesbrough)
Corbett, T. L. (Down, North) M'Killop, W. Winfrey, R.
Craig, Captain James(Down, E) Montgomery, H. H.
Cremer, William Randal Murphy, John TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr.
Duncan, C.(Barrow-in-Furness Myer, Horatio Morton and Mr. Dalziel.
Hardy, George A. (Suffolk) O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)
Hayden, John Patrick O'Shee, James John

Main Question put.

The House divided:—Ayes, 237; Noes, 29. (Division List No. 20.)

AYES.
Abraham, William (Cork, N.E. Ainsworth, John Stirling Arnold-Forster Rt. Hon. Hugh O
Acland, Francis Dyke Allen, A. Acland (Christchurch Astbury, John Meir
Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth) Hall, Frederick Montagu, E. S.
Balcarres, Lord Halpin, J. Murnaghan, George
Balfour, Robert (Lanark) Hambro, Charles Eric Murphy, John
Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight) Hamilton, Marquess of Nicholls, George
Baring, Hn. Guy (Winchester) Hammond, John Nicholson, Chas. N. (Doncaster
Barker, John Hardy, George A. (Suffolk) Nolan, Joseph.
Barran, Rowland Hirst Harmsworth, Cecil B. (Worc'r) O'Brien, Kendal (Tipperary Mid
Barry, E. (Cork, S.) Harwood, George O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)
Beale, W. P. Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth) O'Brien, William (Cork)
Bell, Richard Hayden, John Patrick O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W.
Bennett, E. N. Hazleton, Richard O'Donnell, C. J. (Walworth)
Berridge, T. H. D. Hedges, A. Paget O'Dowd, John
Bertram, Julius Helme, Norval Watson O'Grady, J.
Bethell, T. R. (Essex, Maldon) Henderson, Arthur (Durham) O'Kelly, Jas. (Roscommon, N.)
Billson, Alfred Henderson, J. M. (Aberdeen, W. O'Mara, James
Black, Arthur W. (Bedfordsh.) Henry, Charles S. O'Shaughnessy, P. J.
Boland, John Higham, John Sharp O'Shee, James John
Bolton, T.D. (Derbyshire, N.E.) Hills, J. W. Parker, James (Halifax)
Boyle, Sir Edward Hobart, Sir Robert Paul, Herbert
Brace, William Hodge, John Pearce, Robert (Staffs. Leek)
Bramsdon, T. A. Hogan, Michael Pearce, William (Limehouse)
Brigg, John Holden, E. Hopkinson Perks, Robert William
Brunner, J. F. L. (Lancs., Leigh) Hooper, A. G. Philipps, Col Ivor (S'thampton)
Burke, E. Haviland- Hope. W. Bateman (Somerset, N Pickersgill, Edward Hare
Burns, Rt. Hon. John Horniman, Emslie John Powell, Sir Francis Sharp
Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas Houston, Robert Paterson Power, Patrick Joseph
Butcher, Samuel Henry Hudson, Walter Price, CE(Edinburgh, Central)
Cairns, Thomas Idris, T. H. W. Radford, G. H.
Cecil, Lord John P. Joicey- Isaacs, Rufus Daniel Raphael, Herbert H.
Cecil, Lord R. (Marylebone, E. Jackson, R. S. Rea, Walter Russell (Scarboro'
Channing, Francis Allston Jenkins, J. Reddy, M.
Cheetham, John Frederick Johnson, W. (Nuneaton) Redmond, John E. (Waterford
Clancy, John Joseph Jones, Leif (Appleby) Redmond, William (Clare)
Clarke, C. Goddard (Peckham) Jowett, F. W. Rendall, Athelstan
Clynes, J. R. Kearley, Hudson E. Richards, T. F.(Wolverh'mpt'n
Coates, E. Feetham(Lewisham) Kekewich, Sir George Richardson, A.
Condon, Thomas Joseph Kennedy, Vincent Paul Ridsdale, E. A.
Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow) Laidlaw, Robert Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln
Courthope, G. Loyd Lawson, Sir Wilfrid Roberts, G. H. (Norwich)
Crean, Eugene Layland-Barratt, Francis Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall
Crooks, William Lever, A. Levy (Essex, Harwich Roche, Augustine (Cork)
Dalrymple, Viscount Lever, W. H. (Cheshire, Wirral) Rose, Charles Day
Davies, W. Howell (Bristol, S.) Levy, Maurice Rutherford, V. H. (Brentford)
Delany, William Lewis, John Herbert Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool)
Devlin, Charles Ramsay (Galw'y Lloyd-George, Rt. Hn. David Samuel, Herb. L. (Cleveland)
Dewar, Arthur (Edinburgh, S.) Lough, Thomas Schwann, C. Duncan (Hyde)
Dickinson, W. H. (St. Pancras, N Lundon, W. Schwann, Chas. E.(Manchester
Dillon, John Lynch, H. B. Seddon, J.
Donelan, Captain A. Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester) Shackleton, David James
Duckworth, James Mackarness, Frederic C. Shaw, Rt, Hn. T. (Hawick, B.)
Duffy, William J. Maclean, Donald Sheehan, Daniel Daniel
Duncan, J. H. (York, Otley) Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J. Sheehy, David
Duncan, Robt. (Lanark, Govan MacNeill, John Gordon Swift Shipman, Dr. John G.
Dunn, A. Edw. (Camborne) Macpherson, J. T. Simon, John Allsebrook
Edwards, Enoch (Hanley) MacVeagh, Jeremiah (Down, S. Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie
Emmott, Alfred MacVeigh, Chas. (Donegal, E.) Snowden, P.
Essex, R. W. M'Callum, John M. Spicer, Albert
Eve, Harry Trelawney M'Crae, George Stanley, Hn. A. Lyulph(Cheshire
Everett, R. Lacey M'Kean, John Strauss, E. A. (Abingdon)
Fenwick, Charles M'Killop, W. Sullivan, Donal
Ffrench, Peter M'Laren, Sir C. B. (Leicester) Summerbell, T.
Fiennes, Hon. Eustace M'Laren, H. D. (Stafford, W.) Taylor, Theodore C.(Radcliffe)
Finch, Rt. Hon. George H. M'Micking, Major G. Thomson, W. Mitchell (Lanark
Flavin, Michael Joseph Maddison, Frederick Tomkinson, James
Flynn, James Christopher Magnus, Sir Philip Torrance, A. M.
Fullerton, Hugh Mallet, Charles E. Verney, F. W.
Gilhooly, James Mansfield, H. Rendall (Lincoln) Villiers, Ernest Amherst
Gill, A. H. Meagher, Michael Vincent, Col. Sir C. E. Howard
Ginnell, L. Meehan, Patrick A. Wadsworth, J.
Glendinning, R. G. Menzies, Walter Waldron, Laurence Ambrose
Gooch, George Peabody Micklem, Nathaniel Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)
Grove, Archibald Molteno, Percy Alfred Ward, W. Dudley (Southampton
Wardle, George J. Whittaker, Thomas Palmer Young, Samuel
Warner, Thomas Courtenay T. Wiles, Thomas
Waterlow, D. S. Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.) TELLERS FOR THE AYES—
White, Luke (York, E.R.) Williamson, G. H. (Worcester) Colonel Lockwood and Mr.
White, Patrick (Meath, North) Wilson, John (Durham, Mid) Lane-Fox.
Whiteley, George(York, W.R.) Wilson, P. W. (St. Pancras, S.)
Whitley, J. H. (Halifax) Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)
NOES.
Barnard, E. B. Duncan, C.(Barrow-in-Furness) Steadman, W. C.
Barnes, G. N. Hope, John Deans (Fife, West) Stewart, Halley (Greenock)
Bignold, Sir Arthur Hunt, Rowland Taylor, John W. (Durham)
Campbell.J.H.M (Dublin Univ. Johnson, John (Gateshead) Thorne, William
Carson, Rt. Hn. Sir Edw. H. Keswick, William Wilkie, Alexander
Cleland, J. W. Liddell, Henry Wilson, J. H. (Middlesbrough)
Corbett.CH (Sussex, EGrinst'd Montgomery, H. H. Winfrey, R.
Craig, Chas. Curtis (Antrim, S.) Morton, Alpheus Cleophas
Craig, Capt. James (Down, E.) Myer, Horatio TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Sir
Cremer, William Randal O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.) William Bull and Mr. T. L.
Dalziel, James Henry Salter, Arthur Clavell Corbett.

Bill read a second time and committed.