Commons Sitting of 31 July 1906

Preamble
The House met at quarter before Three of the Clock.

PRIVATE BILL BUSINESS.
Kingston-upon-Hull Corporation Bill; Pontefract Corporation Bill; Sutton District Water Bill. Lords Amendments in pursuance of the Order of the House [30th July], considered, and agreed to.
Metropolitan Electric Supply Bill. As amended, considered.
Ordered, That Standing Orders 223 and 243 be suspended, and that the Bill be now read the third time.—(The Chairman of Ways and Means.)
Bill accordingly read the third time, and passed.
Bristol Corporation Bill (by Order). Lords Amendments to be considered upon Thursday, at a quarter past Eight of the clock.
Hackney Electricity Bill (by Order); Hampstead Garden Suburb Bill (by (Order); London County Council (Money) Bill (by Order); North West London Railway Bill (by Order); St. Pancras Electricity Bill (by Order); South Lincolnshire Water Bill (by Order); South Wales Electrical Power Distribution Company Bill (by Order); Watford and Edgware Railway Bill (by Order). Lords Amendments considered, and agreed to.
Bute (English and Welsh) Estates Bill [Lords] (by Order). Read the third time, and passed, without Amendment.
Nettlebed and District Commons (Preservation) Bill [Lords] (by Order); Shropshire, Worcestershire, and Staffordshire Electric Power Bill [Lords] (by Order). Read the third time, and passed, with Amendments.
Glasgow and South Western Railway Order Confirmation Bill [Lords]. Read the third time, and passed, without Amendment.
Water Orders Confirmation Bill [Lords]. As amended, considered; read the third time, and passed, with Amendments.
Great Northern (Ireland) and Midland Railways Bill [Lords]. Ordered, That Standing Order 243 be suspended, and the Great Northern (Ireland) and Midland Railways Bill [Lords], be now read the third time.—(The Chairman of Ways and Means).
Bill accordingly read the third time, and passed, with Amendments.
Standing Orders (Private Business). Standing Order 1 read, and amended, in line 14, by inserting after the word "Purposes," as a new line, the words "Electricity Supply."
In line 25, by inserting after the word "Regulating," as a new line, the word "Pilotage."
Standing Order 15 read, and amended, in line 4, by leaving out the word "and," and inserting the word "or,"Instead thereof.
In line 4, by inserting after the word "for,"the words "constructing any station for generating electrical energy on specified lands, or for."
In line 9, by inserting after the word 'products,"the words "generating station."
Ordered, That on or before the twenty-first day of December immediately preceding the application for a Bill whereby any express statutory provision relating to nuisance arising on any lands is sought to be altered or repealed, notice in writing of such Bill, and of the intention to alter or repeal such provision, shall be served upon the owner and lessee of every dwelling-house situate within three hundred yards of the said lands.
Resolved, That this Order be a Standing Order of this House.
Ordered, That on or before the eighteenth day of December a printed copy of every Bill of the 1st Class which proposes to authorise any persons other than the road authority to break up or
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otherwise interfere with any streets or roads, shall be deposited at the office of the road authority.
Resolved, That this Order be a Standing Order of this House.
Standing Order 72, read, and amended, by adding, at the end thereof, the words, In the case of any Provisional Order Confirmation Bill in which provisions have been inserted in the House of Lords to which the Standing Orders of this House would apply if the Bill were a Private Bill, the Examiners shall inquire whether, in respect of such provisions, the Standing Orders have been complied with, and report to the House accordingly.
Standing Order 153, read and amended, in line 3, by leaving out the word "on," and inserting the word "of,"Instead thereof.—(The Chairman of Ways and Means.)

MESSAGE FROM THE LORDS.
That they have agreed to—Local Government Provisional Orders (Gas) Bill; Rutherglen Burgh Order Confirmation Bill, with Amendments.
Amendments to—Folkestone, Sandgate, and Hythe Tramways Bill [Lords]; South Eastern and London, Chatham, and Dover Railways Bill [Lords], without Amendment.

PETITIONS.
  LAND VALUES TAXATION, &c, (SCOTLAND) BILL.
  Petition of the Incorporated Society of Law Agents in Scotland, against; to lie upon the Table.
  STREET BETTING BILL [LORDS].
  Petition from Clitheroe, in favour; to lie upon the Table.
  EDUCATION (ENGLAND AND WALES) BILL.
  Petitions against; From Burghfield; North Perrott; Pauler's Pury; St. Cleer; and West Hallam: to lie upon the Table.

  EDUCATION (ENGLAND AND WALES) BILL (RELIGIOUS TEACHING)
  Petitions against alteration of Law; From Ashow; Bromsgroye; Copdock;

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  Hartley; Leek Wooton (two); Leigh; Llangyfelach (two); Loose; Severn Stoke (two); Shelsley; and Wolphanpcote; to lie upon the Table.

  INFANT LIFE PROTECTION.
  Petitions for alteration of Law; From Chapel-en-le-Frith; and Headington; to lie upon the Table.
  LAND TENURE (SCOTLAND) BILL,
  Petition of the Incorporated Society of Law Agents in Scotland, against; to lie upon the Table.
RETURNS, REPORTS, ETC.
  CRIMINAL AND JUDICIAL STATISTICS (IRELAND).
  Copy presented, of Criminal and Judicial Statistics of Ireland for the year 1905. Part I. Criminal Statistics [by Command]; to lie upon the Table,
  IRISH LAND COMMISSION.
  Copy presented of Report of the Commissioners for the period from 1st April, 1905 to 31st March, 1906 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
  MOROCCO (No. 1, 1906).
  Copy presented, of Despatches from the British Delegate at the International Conference at Algeciras, forwarding the General Act of the Conference, signed 7th April, 1906, and other documents relating to the Affairs of Morroco [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
  INCLOSURE, &c, EXPENSES ACT, 1868.
  Copy presented, of Fees to be taken in respect of transactions under the Tithe Acts, 1836 to 1891, in accordance with the provisions of The Inclosure, &c, Expenses Act, 1868, in lieu of the Fees heretofore authorised for such business [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.
  UNIVERSITIES (SCOTLAND) ACT, 1889 (ORDINANCE).
  Copy presented, of University Court Ordinance No. XVII. (St. Andrews, No. 3) (Institution of Degrees in Agriculture and relative Regulations) [by Act]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 294.]
  POST OFFICE.
  Copy presented, of Fifty-second Report of the Postmaster-General [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
  SHIPPING CASUALTIES (1904–5).
  Copy presented, of Abstract of the Returns of Shipping Casualties which occurred on or near the Coasts or in Rivers and Harbours of the United Kingdom from the 1st July, 1904 to 30th June, 1905, and of the Returns of Shipping Casualties to British Vessels elsewhere than on the Coasts of the United Kingdom, and to Foreign Vessels on or near the Coasts, or in Rivers and Harbours, of British Possessions abroad, &c, with Charts and Appendices [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
  IMPERIAL INSTITUTE.
  Copy presented, of Report to the Board of Trade on the work of the Imperial Institute at South Kensington during the year 1905 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
  NAVY (DOCKYARDS).
  Copy presented, of Memorandum explanatory of recent and forthcoming changes in the administration of His Majesty's Dockyards in the United Kingdom [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
  WEST INDIAN ISLANDS (EXPORTS).
  Return ordered, "of the average annual Exports to the United Kingdom and the United States of America during each quinquennium ending 1904, 1899, 1894, and 1889 from the British West Indian Islands; how much of such Exports were of sugar and molasses; how much were of fruit (fresh and dried), coffee, cocoa and tobacco; and the proportions for each such period going to the United States of America and the United Kingdom, respectively."—(Mr. Essex.)
QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS CIRCULATED WITH THE VOTES.

  Cost of Battleships—Wages and Material.
  MR. ARTHUR LEE: To ask the Secretary to the Admiralty if he can state approximately

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  what proportion of the total cost of a first-class battleship, of the "Dreadnought" or "King Edward" classes, is represented by wages paid to workmen employed in the building operations and in producing the necessary material.
  (Answered by Mr. Edmund Robertson.) No accurate calculation is possible, but as I have already stated in reply to a Question asked by the hon. Member for King's Lynn on March 7th, there is reason to believe that the proportion of the total cost of a battleship which represents wages is well over 70 per cent.

  Repayment to Civil Contingencies Fund.
  MR. WEIR: To.ask the Secretary to the Treasury if he will state the name of the clergyman resident abroad in respect of whom a sum of £10 is to be repaid to the Civil Contingencies fund for stamp duties on.Letters Patent conferring on him a degree; and will he state the character of the degree.
  (Answered by Mr. McKenna.) The name as the Reverend Herbert Udny Weit-brecht, the degree that of Doctor in Divinity.

  Repayment of Stamp Duties on Letters Patent Conferring Knighthoods.
  MR. WEIR: To ask the Secretary to the Treasury, seeing that a sum of £367 4s. is placed on the Civil Service Supplementary Estimates under Class 7 as repayments to the Civil Contingencies Fund in respect of stamp duties payable on Letters Patent conferring knighthood on twelve persons resident abroad, will he state whether these gentlemen are British subjects; and, if so, will he explain why they are not required to pay their respective portions of the stamp duties.
  (Answered by Mr. McKenna.) All the persons in question are believed to be British subjects. If they had been resident in the United Kingdom they would have received knighthood personally at the hands of the Sovereign, and Letters Patent would not have been necessary. In these circumstances they were relieved from the duties on the Letters Patent according to the usual practice in such cases.

  Erection of Barracks at Norwich.
  MR. FELL: To ask the Secretary of State for War whether, having regard to the saving that will be effected by the reduction of the forces decided upon, he will now have sufficient funds to enable him to proceed with the erection of the new barracks at Norwich.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Haldane.) Will the hon. Member kindly refer to my reply to a Question on this subject put by the noble Lord the hon. Member for Maidstone on Monday, 30th instant? †
  † See Col. 449.

  Barrack Repairs Contracts—Fair Wages Resolution.
  MR. CLYNES: To ask the Secretary of State for War whether he is aware that a number of the firms which recently tendered for the painting, &c, of various barracks in northern districts are regarded by the organisations of workmen as firms which do not conform to the established conditions of work and wages in the trade; and whether he takes any steps to ensure that firms doing work for his department do not repudiate the accredited representatives of the workmen and recognise the trade customs and wages obtaining in the particular trade and district.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Haldane.) Such contracts contain the usual provision that the wages paid in executing them shall be those generally accepted as current in each trade for competent workmen in the district where the work is carried out. Any specific representation that this clause is being infringed will be duly inquired into.

  Ratification and Publication of the Tibet Convention.
  SIR H. COTTON: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether the Tibet Convention between His Majesty's Government and the Government of China, which was signed at Pekin on April 27th, has been ratified, and will be laid upon the Table before the adjournment of the House.
  (Answered by Secretary Sir Edward Grey.) The Convention was ratified on the 23rd instant, and will be laid before the House almost immediately
  † See col. 449.

  The Portuguese Minister's Motor Car Accident.
  MR. SIMON: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether his attention has been called to a collision which occurred in Golden Lane, E.G., on May 1st, 1906, between a motor car belonging to the Marquis de Jacome Correa, of the Portuguese Legation, and driven by the Marquis' chauffeur, Emile Brouard, and a bicycle belonging to and ridden by Mr. F. Broomfield, of 8, Boundary Road, Walthamstow, whereby Mr. Broomfield was seriously injured and his bicycle damaged by the negligent driving, as Mr. Broom-field alleges, of the Marquis' motor car; and whether, inasmuch as both the Marquis and his chauffeur are protected by their diplomatic immunity from proceedings being taken against them in the English courts, but it is competent to the Marquis to waive this immunity as regards his chauffeur, the Secretary of State will represent to the Portuguese Legation the propriety of waiving this immunity to this extent, so as to enable Mr. Broomfield to sue the chauffeur for damages for negligence.
  (Answered by Secretary Sir Edward Grey.) The facts stated in the Question are being brought to the notice of the Portuguese Minister. But as the matter is one of diplomatic privilege recognised both here and abroad, no other action can be taken by His Majesty's Government.

  Allowance to Officers in Northern Nigeria.
  MR. O'NEILL: To ask the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies why the allowances to officers in Northern Nigeria have been reduced from 5s. per diem to 4s., although it is stated in a G. S. O. that an allowance of 5s. per diem would be temporarily issued until permanent buildings were made, and these buildings have not yet been erected.
  (Answered by Mr. Churchill.) The system of giving a daily allowance, in addition to salary, to civil and military officers was adopted in 1900 on the establishment of the Protectorate of Northern Nigeria, and was an extension to civilians of the arrangement under which the officers of the military force previously in occupation of the country had been
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  regarded as on service t"In the field;" and had been allowed 5s. a day as "field allowance."the conditions of the grant were laid down as follows—Permanent houses have not yet been built in Northern. Nigeria for the accommodation of Government officers, who will at first have to live in temporary wooden houses sent out from this country; and, in view of the inconvenience to which they will thus be exposed, and of the comparatively high cost of living under the existing conditions in Northern Nigeria, a "local allowance" of 5s. a day will for the present be paid to officers for each day of residential service, but this arrangement, will be subject to revision when the present conditions in these respects are improved, and officers are provided with permanent quarters. Large sums have been expended in successive years on the building of houses for the European staff, and the sending out of temporary wooden houses has been discontinued. As regards. Lokoja and Zungeru, the two chief centres of administration, Sir Frederick Lugard considered no further houses necessary last year, and in the current year has asked for and obtained sanction to only one building of importance. In the more distant stations the erection of permanent quarters is making steady progress. The-allowance of 5s. a day has always been, understood to be temporary, and the conditions quoted above are taken from the "general conditions of service," which are liable to alteration from time to time as circumstances require. It has been felt for some time that the circumstances of Northern Nigeria were now such as to admit of officers working there being treated less as though they were on service "In the field," and more like officers holding similar positions in the other West African Colonies, and it has accordingly been decided to take steps for the gradual abolition of the allowance in question.

  Dismissal of Mr. Cecil Bisset.
  MR. THOMASSON: To ask the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he will cause Mr. Cecil Bisset to be informed of the grounds on which he was dismissed from Kroonstad, of the reasons for the refusal of his application for compensation; and also, whether Mr. Bisset's affidavits referred to, in the letter addressed to him by Mr. C, Grant, R.M., from the office of the.

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  Resident Magistrate, Kroonstad, O.R.C., on May 19th, 1903, have yet been found.
  (Answered by Mr. Churchill.) With regard to the first part of the Question, I have nothing to add to my Answer of June 28th, † which Mr. Bisset has no doubt seen. With regard to the affidavits, inquiry shall be made.
  † See (4) Debates, CIIX., 1112–3.

  Report on Government Farms at Nairobi and Naivach.
  SIR C. HILL: To ask the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he will obtain and lay upon the Table of the House Reports on the Government farms at Nairobi and Naivach in the East Africa Protectorate, in continuation of Africa, No. 4, 1905.
  (Answered by Mr. Churchill.) An expert is proceeding to the Protectorate at the beginning of September to inquire into and report on agricultural matters generally, and, in the circumstances, the Secretary of State does not consider it necessary to call for separate Reports on the Government farms at Nairobi and Naivasha.

  Orange River Colony Constitution.
  MR. BRIDGEMAN: To ask the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether His Majesty's Government have received any representations from the Governments of any self-governing Colony relative to the question of granting a constitution to the Orange River Colony; and whether any suggestion has been received from any Colonial Government that the question should not be determined except after discussion by a colonial conference.
  (Answered by Mr. Churchill.) The answer to both Questions is in the negative; but if it be the pleasure of the House I will make a statement upon the constitutional questions in South Africa to the Supply Committee after Question time.

  British Subjects in the Transvaal.
  MR. HERBERT: To ask the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies what is the total number of white adult males in the Transvaal; of the total number how many are British subjects, and how many are not British subjects; of the total
  † See (4) Debates, ciix., 1112–3
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  number of British subjects how many are of British birth, and not of British birth respectively; and of the total of those not of British birth, though British subjects, how many are Boers, and how many belong to other races.
  (Answered by Mr. Churchill.) There is no reliable estimate for bringing the figures of the Census of April, 1904, up to date. The total number of adult male British subjects at that date is given as 91,484. The Census does not provide the means of answering the other points raised in. the Question.

  Tullamore and Killeigh Telegraphic Service.
  MR. DELANY: To ask the Postmaster-General whether the required guarantee has been: given by the Tullamore (No. 1) Rural District Council in connection with the proposed telegraphic service between Tullamore and Killeigh, King's County; and can he say what steps are being taken to carry out the work.
  (Answered by Mr. Sydney Buxton.) The deed of guarantee is being prepared for execution. The work will be carried out as soon as possible when the deed is executed.

  Appointment of Belfast Learners to Central Telegraph Office — Lodging Allowances.
  MR. JAMES O'CONNOR: To ask the Postmaster-General whether, in connection with the offer of appointments in the Central Telegraph Office to female learners at Belfast, it is proposed to give, on the acceptance of such appointments, an immediate increase in pay to compensate for the cost of living in lodgings in London, as compared with living at home in Belfast; and, if so, what would be the amount of such: increase.
  (Answered by Mr. Sydney Buxton.) No,. Sir; it would not be practicable to grant, such an allowance.

  Feeding of School Children.
  DR. MACNAMARA: To ask the President of the Local Government Board whether he can now give any information as to the working of the Local Government Board Order of

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  May, 1905, respecting the co-operation of boards of guardians in the work of providing food for children in attendance at public elementary schools, suffering from lack of food.
  (Answered by Mr. John Burns.) The Local Government Board obtained from their inspectors some information on this subject in March last, from which it appeared that in some populous districts, such as the large Lancashire and Yorkshire unions, a good deal of work has been done under the Order, but that elsewhere the cases relieved under the Order had not been very numerous. In the Eastern Counties no relief under the Order had been found necessary, except at Norwich. In Birmingham, shortly after the Order came into force, the guardians wore informed by the local education committee that there were 2,600 underfed children in the parish, and that they were being supplied with free meals. Numerous applications were made by the head teachers to the relieving officers on behalf of children under their care, but when inquiries were made as to the circumstances of the parents of these children, it was found that in many cases the guardians would not be justified in granting relief under the Order. The largest number of children on any one day to whom meals have been supplied by the guardians under the Order was 482. At Bristol the guardians made arrangements with the local education authority to obtain the assistance of a local society interested in the welfare of children. The first list sent in by the teachers specified seventy-four children as being underfed by reason of parental neglect, but inquiry by the relieving officers showed that only in one case would the guardians be justified in giving relief. Up to the end of January the names of fifty-five children were submitted as coming within the Order, but in only eleven cases was relief given. Thus out of 129 applications only in twelve instances did the guardians feel justified in giving relief. In Cheshire, Salop, etc., twenty-seven cases were relieved, viz., two at Birkenhead, three at Bucklow, eight at Congleton, four at Stoke-on-Trent, and ten at Wolstanton and Burslem, In several unions, however, voluntary funds were started, and thus children were relieved and kept off the rates. At Derby there were 127 applica-
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  tions, and seventeen children were found to be underfed. In Nottingham there were 107 applications and fifty-one relieved. In Leicester there were over 400 applications, but in no case was relief found to be necessary. In the township of Manchester 120 cases were relieved, about 380 in Chorlton, and many in Prestwich. The operation of the Order in Lancashire was mainly restricted to the neighbourhood of Manchester and Bolton. As regards the East and West Ridings of Yorkshire, there were 2,586 cases in Bradford, 375 parents of 1,073 children were notified that relief was given on loan, and fifty parents were proceeded against fox—recovevy of the cost. Of the 2,586 cases, 1,513 were fed by the guardians on behalf of the education authority who administered a fund raised by the Mayor. In Leeds 500 cases were fed at the cost of a voluntary fund. 110 cases were fed at first in Hunslet, but the number was afterwards reduced to thirty. In Bramley the guardians fed 291, and a voluntary fund 2,523 cases. In London, generally speaking, very few cases were relieved under the Order, but in some ordinary poor relief was granted, and in others food was provided by school children's meals associations from moneys voluntarily contributed.

  Cost of Maintenance of Barrack Schools and Village Communities.
  MR. L. HASLAM: To ask the President of the Local Government Board whether he will state approximately the comparative annual cost per child, including charges on capital account and maintenance in each of the several classes of institution known as barrack schools, village communities, scattered homes, and boarding out, provided under the Poor Laws; is he aware that the Hornchurch village community cost £190 per bed to build, and the Sidcup village community £280 to build per bed provided; and can he give the cost per bed of other village communities.
  (Answered by Mr. John Burns.) I am sorry that I am not able to give the particulars desired.

  Audit of Electric Lighting Accounts.
  DR. MACNAMARA: To ask the President of the Board of Trade whether, having regard to the

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  ultimate purchase by the local authorities within the period fixed by Parliament, in pursuance of the powers given him under the Electric Lighting Orders Confirmation Acts granted by Parliament to companies in the administrative county of London, he will appoint as auditor of the accounts of such undertakings the auditor of the Local Government Board, who already audits the electric lighting accounts of the boroughs holding Orders within such area; or whether he will take steps to assimilate the two systems of audit in order to secure a uniform and reliable basis of comparison.
  (Answered by Mr. Kearley.) So long as an electric lighting undertaking is carried on by a company, I do not consider that any advantage would be gained by making the accounts of the undertaking subject to a Local Government Board audit. The latter part of my hon. friend's Question seems to suggest that the forms of account prescribed by the Board of Trade require alteration. Those forms were settled after consultation with competent authorities, and the Board of Trade have not received any representations that they are in any way defective.

  Return of Hours worked by Railway Men.
  MR. BELL: To ask the President of the Board of Trade whether he can state when the Return of hours worked by railway men in March last, and called for in April, will be published; and whether he can facilitate the publishing of such Return.
  (Answered by Mr. Kearley.) No Return of hours worked by railway men in the month of March has been called for, though a Return for certain classes of signalmen of hours worked in February was asked for in May. Many of the railway companies have forwarded their statements to the Department, and I hope that this Return will be published with no undue delay. A Return of the hours worked by enginemen, guards and brakesmen, signalmen and examiners during the present month is now being called for.

  Return of Railway Accidents.
  MR. BELL: To ask the President of the Board of Trade if he is aware that the Return of Accidents on Railways for
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  the year 1905 has not yet been published and whether he can indicate as to when it is likely to be published, and the reason of it being later than usual; and whether he can facilitate the issuing of these Returns.
  (Answered by Mr. Kearley.) Quarterly Returns of accidents on railways are issued, and the total number of accidents in 1905 to passengers, railway servants, and other persons is given in the Return for the last quarter of the year which was published in April last. Since 1903 the detailed Annual Returns of Railway Accidents have been published together with the General Report on Railway Accidents. The Report for 1905 is now nearly completed, and will, I hope, be issued very shortly.

  Foreshore Rights Between Blairmore and Innellan.
  MR. WATT: To ask the President of the Board of Trade to whom the beach below high-water mark belongs, between Blairmore and Innellan on the Firth of Clyde, to whom belongs the right of removing gravel therefrom; whether any private proprietors have this right; and, if so, who are they.
  (Answered by Mr. Kearley.) At least half of the foreshore in question is under the management of the Commissioners of Woods and Forests. I have no information as to what rights are exercised over that part of the foreshore. The remaining part of the foreshore is under the management of the Board of Trade, who have conveyed or leased portions thereof to adjoining owners. I am not able to give the names of all the present owners or lessees. They are subject to covenants not to do any act which may obstruct navigation or be injurious to the public interest. Generally the removal of gravel is subject to the control of the Board of Trade. If the hon. Member could make it convenient to call at the office of the Board of Trade further particulars can be supplied.

  Legality of Newspaper Lotteries.
  MR. L. HASLAM: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether any, and, if so, what steps have been taken to ascertain whether the system of lotteries, practised by the proprietors of newspapers, by which

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  money prizes are given for the chance finding of a number or numbers on tickets or otherwise is illegal.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Gladstone.) A case has been stated for the opinion of the High Court in connection with a matter which legally stands on a similar footing, but it is very doubtful whether this case will be heard during the present sittings of the Courts.

  National Debt Commission Securities for Post Office Savings Bank Liabilities.
  MR. CHIOZZA MONEY: To ask the Secretary to the Treasury, with reference to the Return of the nature and amount of the securities held by the National Debt Commissioners to meet the liabilities of the Post Office Savings Bank, if he will state the actual cost and the present market value of the securities.
  (Answered by Mr. McKenna.) The Return referred to by the hon. Member is prepared in accordance with the requirements of Section 9 (2) of the Savings Banks Act, 1904, and purposely excludes a valuation of the securities held in respect of the Post Office Savings Bank which was held by the Select Committee of 1902 to be misleading. To state the actual cost and present market value of the securities would therefore tend to defeat the intention of the statute in question.
  MR. CHIOZZA MONEY: To ask the Secretary to the Treasury, with reference to Section 6 of the Savings Bank Act, 1861, whether the funds in the possession of the National Debt Commissioners, being the sums invested by them in trustee securities under that Act, are at the present time sufficient to meet the lawful claims of the depositors; if not, what is the amount of the deficiency; and, if a deficiency exists, whether, in accordance with the Act referred to, it will be certified to Parliament.
  (Answered by Mr. McKenna.) The Post Office Savings Banks Fund does suffice, and always has sufficed, to meet the actual claims of the depositors. In the event of any deficiency having to be made good by an issue out of the Consolidated Fund, the amount of such
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  deficiency would be duly certified to Parliament as the Act requires.

  Licensed Houses on the Ecclesiastical Commissioners' Estates in Lancashire
  MR. CROSSLEY: To ask the hon. Member for East Bristol, as Church Estates Commissioner, how many of the fifty-seven licensed houses on the estates of the Ecclesiastical Commissionersin Lancashire were either leased for the first time or by way of renewal during the past ten years; where such houses are situate; and what inquiries, if any, were made by the Ecclesiastical Commissioners as to the needs of the neighbourhoods before granting or regranting the lease or leases concerned.
  (Answered by Mr. Hobhouse.) The number is two, and both were renewals. The Commissioners were satisfied from their acquaintance with the circumstances of the estates and the districts that in. neither case was there sufficient ground, for refusing a renewal.

  Trustees of Mr. Bourke Cochran's Gift to Sligo.
  MR. FETHERSTONHAUGH: To ask Mr. Attorney-General for Ireland whether he can state who are the trustees of the fund of £ 10,000 given by Mr. Bourke Cochran for the benefit of Sligo, his native place; whether the trust being for a public object is one which, as Attorney-General, it would come within his duty to supervise; and whether, as it appears that the entire trust fund has been lost, he will take any steps to have an investigation of the application of the money by the trustees.
  (Answered by Mr. Cherry.) I am not aware that there are, or ever were, any trustees of the sum mentioned in the Question, or that a deed of trust of any kind was executed by Mr. Bourke Cochran, who appears merely to have-invested the sum of £10,000 in an industry connected with the town of Sligo, with the laudable object of benefiting his native place. It is no part of my duty to supervise that gentleman's investments, nor have I any right to inquire into them with a view to ascertaining whether they have been remunerative or not.

  Sheep Scab in Gloucestershire.
  MR. ESSEX: To ask the hon. Member for south Somerset, as representing the President of the Board of Agriculture, whether he will state the number of cases of sheep scab notified in the county of Gloucester during the twelve months ending February 1st, 1906.
  (Answered by Sir Edward Strachey.) Four outbreaks of sheep scab have been reported in the county of Gloucester during the period named.

  Pot-still Whisky.
  MR. DELANY: To ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer whether his attention has been called to the case in which a Belfast merchant has been fined £200 for blending, at his own premises, patent spirit with pot-still whisky; whether a similar practice is regularly carried on an the bonded warehouses under the supervision of the Inland Revenue officials, and the mixture so compounded retailed to consumers as pot-still whisky; and can he say what steps he proposes taking to prevent such fraud upon the public.
  (Answered by Mr. Asquith.) I can only refer the hon. Member to the reply I gave to a similar Question by the hon. Member for Wicklow yesterday.†
  † See Col. 413

  Irish Resident Magistrates—Car Fares Allowances, etc.
  MR. FIELD: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he will state, for the financial year 1905–6, the.amount of car fares and subsistence allowances specially charged by resident magistrates in Ireland for special conferences with district inspectors of police regarding cases in which the latter are prosecuting on behalf of the Crown and the former adjudicating thereon; and what steps he proposes to take in this.matter.
  (Answered by Mr. Bryce.) The resident magistrates' accounts for the year 1905–6 are at present at the Audit Office for examination. I am, however, informed that practically no expense is incurred by resident magistrates upon conferences with district inspectors. In the few Cases, if any, in which such conferences
  † See Col. 413.
  686

  may occur, the usual course would be for the district inspector to wait on the resident magistrate and not vice versa.
  MR. FIELD: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he will state the amount of subsistence allowance for 1905–6 charged while at Bangor by the resident magistrate of Portadown; and, seeing that many of the places at which this resident magistrate presided, while staying at Bangor, were as easy of access from Portadown as from Bangor, whether he will give instructions that in future subsistence allowance is to be disallowed in such cases and in all similar cases throughout Ireland.
  (Answered by Mr. Bryce.) As the resident magistrates' accounts for the year 1905–6 are at present at the Audit Office for audit I am unable to give the information asked for in the first part of the Question. The hon. Member may, however, rely upon the fact that these accounts are closely scrutinised, not only by the Financial Department of the Chief Secretary's Office, but also by the Controller and Auditor-General.

  Revising Barristers' Expenses.
  MR. FIELD: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he will state the amount of car-hire for 1905–6 paid to the revising barrister who sat at Newry, for journeys to and from Warrenpoint; and whether, seeing that there is good hotel accommodation in Newry, and that no official business was to be transacted at Warrenpoint, he will give instructions that in future such charges are to be disallowed, and also similar charges throughout Ireland.
  (Answered by Mr. McKenna.) The amount paid in 1905–6 was £6 5s. The revising barrister explains that he did not consider that any extra expense was entailed by working the district from Warrenpoint, as compared with the cost of changing his quarters from place to place. Similar charges will not be allowed in future unless under very exceptional circumstances.

  Tuberculosis in Ireland—American Bacon.
  MR. FETHERSTONHAUGH: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether the Irish

  687
  Government has directed its attention to the circumstance that the increase of tuberculosis in Ireland has followed on the increased use of low-class American bacon, believed by many people to be the flesh of tuberculous swine; whether, as there is no Government inspection of possibly tuberculous meat at the ports of entry, he will consider the advisability of issuing a circular to the various public health authorities in Ireland, calling their attention to the danger to health arising from the consumption of meat infected with the bacilli of tuberculosis and the necessity for vigilance of their inspectors in preventing unsound meat from being exposed for sale.
  (Answered by Mr. Bryce.) The entire question of the importation of food, which affects the United Kingdom generally, has been under the consideration of the Government, and my right hon. friend the President of the Local Government Board has introduced a Bill dealing with the matter. I refer to the Public Health (Regulations as to Food) Bill, which is down for Second Reading on October 23rd.

  Suggested Government Hatchery on the River Erne.
  MR. FETHERSTONHAUGH: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland if he will represent to the Department of Agriculture, etc., the desirability of maintaining a hatchery on the river Erne under the control of the Department instead of subsidising a private hatchery, the sufficiency and management of which is much doubted by many persons interested in the river and Lough Erne.
  (Answered by Mr. Bryce) The Department of Agriculture are satisfied that the hatchery referred to is very well managed. They are, however, prepared to enter into an agreement, upon the usual conditions, to enlarge the hatchery, but are not prepared to establish another hatchery in the river under their own control.

  Lough Erne Fisheries.
  MR. FETHERSTONHAUGH: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether any arrangement has yet been come to with the conservators in the Erne district as
  688
  to contribution by the Crown, as owner of Lough Erne, towards the preservation of the fishing and enforcement of the laws against illegal netting and the destruction of spawning fish; and, if not, will he give the matter his early attention, with a view to more careful protection of salmon trout and other fish for the benefit of many poor fishermen to whom Lough Erne is a principal source of the means of earning a living.
  (Answered by Mr. Bryce.) The Department of Agriculture are informed that no application has yet been made by the Board of Conservators to the Commissioners of Woods with regard to the proposed co-operation in the protection of the fisheries of Lough Erne. The Department understand that the matter will be considered by the Conservators at their next meeting.

  Reinstatement of Samuel Maxwell on the De Vesci Estate.
  MR. DELANY: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether the Report of the inspector who some time since visited, the De Vesci estate, Abbeyleix, Queen's County, has yet been received by the Estates Commissioners; and, if so, can he state what steps are being taken to reinstate or otherwise provide for Samuel Maxwell, an evicted tenant, on the property.
  (Answered by Mr. Bryce.) The Estates Commissioners have not yet received their inspector's Report on Samuel Maxwell's application.

  Chairs in Phœnix Park, Dublin.
  MR. DELANY: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that chairs have been placed in the Phœnix Park, Dublin, for the occupancy of which visitors have to pay: can he say by whose orders and upon what authority those seats have been introduced and the charges to the public permitted; who collects and receives the funds; and whether the seats are Irish or Foreign manufacture.
  (Answered by Mr. McKenna.) For the convenience of the public attending band performances, cricket and polo matches, etc., the Board, following the analogous

  689
  arrangement in the public parks under the control of the Office of Works in London, have licensed experimentally the placing of chairs in the Phœnix Park, for which an authorised charge of one penny per diem is made and collected by the agents of the licensee. The Commissioners have no knowledge as to where the chairs were manufactured. The chairs supplied by the licensee are, of course, in addition to, and not in substitution for, the numerous seats and chairs already provided in the park by the Board for which no charge is made.

  Tithe Rent Charges on Irish Estates.
  MR. DOLAN: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that in cases where the rental of an estate has been diminished charges payable to the church property branch of the Irish Land Commission have remained unaltered; will he state the basis on which these charges are assessed; and will he have inquiry made into this matter, with a view to having tithe rent charges and similar charges diminished in the same proportion as the rental.
  (Answered by Mr. Bryce.) The hon. Member appears to be under a misapprehension. Under the Tithe Rent Charge (Ireland) Act, 1900, Sections 2 and 3, the tithe rent charge in any county is varied proportionately to the variation between the former rents and the rents fixed by the Land Court in the county. Under Section 90 of the Irish Land Act, 1903, perpetuity rents payable to the church property branch of the Irish Land Commission are similarly varied.

  Grazing Rights of Tenants on the Montgomery Estate.
  MR. DOLAN: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that several tenants on the Montgomery Estate, which was sold about two years ago in the Land Judge's Court, have been prevented from purchasing their holdings; in view of the fact that these tenants have always enjoyed grazing rights on an adjoining mountain, without which it would be impossible for them to exist on their farms, and that the agent on the estate has informed the tenants that they will not be allowed to purchase their holdings unless they consent to abandon
  690
  these rights, will the Chief Secretary inquire into the case with a view to expediting the sale to these tenants.
  (Answered by Mr. Bryce.) The Registrar of the Land Judge's Court informs me that he is unable to identify the estate referred to, as there are several estates before the court in which the owner's name is Montgomery. If the hon. Member will give particulars which will enable the estate to be identified, the Registrar will make further inquiries.

  Dismissal of Irish School Teachers.
  MR. DOLAN: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether, in view of the recent public pronouncements of Dr. Traill on compulsory retirement of teachers for enforced inefficiency, he will cause a public inquiry to be made into the injustice alleged to be done to teachers under the National Board.
  (Answered by Mr. Bryce.) The Commissioners of National Education inform me that there is no reason whatever for a public inquiry into this matter. The dismissal of teachers for inefficiency since 1900 has, the Commissioners inform me, not been due to the abolition of the results system which was effected in that year. In the great majority of cases the teachers so dismissed had been censured for inefficiency prior to 1900. The Commissioners are having a Return prepared showing the record prior to 1900 of each teacher dismissed during the past five years.

  Reinstatement of Patrick Fiely, of Gortinar, County Leitrim.
  MR. DOLAN: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether the Estates Commissioners have received from Patrick Fiely an application to be reinstated on his farm in Gortinar, near Manorhamilton, county Leitrim, on the estate of Owen Wynne, Hazlewood, from which he was evicted, although offering to pay all arrears; and whether the Estates Commissioners are taking action in this matter.
  (Answered by Mr. Bryce.) The Estates Commissioners have received Patrick Fiely's application, and will have it

  691
  inquired into by an inspector in due course.

  Outdoor Relief in the Listowel Union.
  CAPTAIN CRAIG: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that the amount of outdoor relief paid in the Poor Law union of Listowel in the year 1880 was £8, whereas for 1905 it was £3,063 14s. 4d., and for 1906 £3,078 17s. 4d.; whether he can explain this increase; and whether, in view of the statement of the auditor in his last Report as to the burden which this amount is on the ratepayers, he will appoint a Commission to inquire into this increase in outdoor relief in the interests of the ratepayers.
  (Answered by Mr. Bryce.) I am informed that the figures set out in the Question are substantially correct. The Local Government Board have called the attention of the board of guardians to the great increase in the expenditure on outdoor relief in order that the guardians may exercise greater economy in the matter. The Board have also referred the observations of their auditor on the subject to the guardians for their consideration. It is, however, to be remembered that it is within the discretion of the board of guardians to administer outdoor relief to certain classes of persons. The appointment of a Commission to inquire into the matter does not appear to be necessary, especially as the sphere of the present Royal Commission extends to Ireland.

  Separate Tents for Yeomanry Officers.
  MR. GIBBS: To ask the Secretary of State for War whether while in camp during their annual trainings, the sole use of one tent is granted to each officer of Militia and Volunteers; and, if so, whether seeing that in the Yeomanry, officers below the rank of field officer are only allowed one tent between two, orders will be issued to place the Yeomanry officer on the same footing as the Militia and Volunteer officer.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Haldane.) The Yeomanry officer is on the same footing as an officer of the Regular Forces. The Militia have been treated exception-
  692
  ally owing to the length of their camps; but the question of treating all forces on the same lines as the Regular Forces is now receiving consideration.

  Post Office Savings Bank Funds and Erection of Model Dwellings.
  MR. CHIOZZA MONEY: To ask the Prime Minister, in view of the fact that over £150,000,000 has now been deposited by the working classes in the Post Office Savings Bank, whether he can see his way to introduce legislation to enable a proportion of the sum, say one-third, to be devoted to the erection of model free-hold dwelling houses for the working classes, thus helping the poor with their own capital.
  (Answered by Sir H. Campbell-Bannerman.) I am not prepared to introduce legislation for this purpose. I do not think that working-class dwellings are the most appropriate form of security in which to invest Savings Bank deposits. But it may interest my hon. friend to know that a considerable portion of the Savings Bank Funds is already applied, through the Local Loans Fund, in providing advances to local authorities for their expenditure on housing and other purposes. On the 31st December last the assets of the Post Office Savings Bank Fund included Local Loans Stock to the amount of £19,292,969.

  Proceedings of Irish Intermediate Board.
  MR. THOMAS O'DONNELL: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland when he intends publishing the Minutes of meetings of the Intermediate Board, and correspondence dealing with the Resolution of this House of 21st May, proposing to alter their rules of 1907.
  (Answered by Mr. Bryce.) The Intermediate Board have been asked by the Lord-Lieutenant to send him the Minutes of their proceedings for publication, but have refused to do so, stating that in their opinion no good purpose would be attained by the publication of their Minutes which have always been regarded as private and confidential. It was hoped that the correspondence between the Irish Government and the Board might have been before now published, but it has not yet been

  693
  brought to a close. I trust, however, that it will within a few days be concluded, and as soon as that happens it shall be published.

  Orange Disturbances in Ulster.
  CAPTAIN CRAIG: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he will furnish particulars of the one serious breach of the peace reported by the inspector-general of constabulary as occurring with the recent Orange demonstration in Ulster.
  (Answered by Mr. Bryce.) The case in question is one in which a young woman named Lucinda Roche was shot and seriously injured near Armagh. As a man is awaiting trial for the offence, it would be contrary to practice and undesirable that I should enter into the details of the case.

  Restoration of Evicted Tenants—Case of Mrs. Colfer.
  MR. FFRENCH: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that application has been made to the Estates Commissioners to restore Mrs. Colfer, of Langnageer, to her holding on the Leigh estate from which she was evicted; and whether this case comes under the evicted tenants clauses of the Land Act of 1903; and, if so, can he state why the Estates Commissioners have taken no steps to restore Mrs. Colfer to her home.
  (Answered by Mr. Bryce.) The Estates Commissioners have received from Mary and Patrick Colfer an application for reinstatement, and will have the case duly inquired into. The Commissioners are unable to say, until they receive their inspector's report, whether the case is one which comes within the terms of Section 2 of the Act of 1903.

QUESTION'S IN THE HOUSE.

  Naval Discipline.
  MR. BRAMSDON: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Admiralty whether his attention has been called to sentences that have been inflicted by
  694
  courts martial, in some cases of a trivial character, on men in the Navy for striking non-commissioned officers, and to the fact that, with few exceptions, those sentences were of imprisonment with hard labour for terms ranging from six to eighteen calendar months; whether he is aware that in many instances those offences arose whilst the men were under the influence of drink, or were young to the service and had lost their tempers, and afterwards appeared to express genuine regret for their wrong doing; and will he say whether any such sentences were afterwards reduced by the Admiralty, and, if so, in how many cases.
  THE CIVIL LORD OP THE ADMIRALTY (Mr. LAMBERT,): I assume that the term "noncommissioned officers" is intended to include all "superior officers" of a rank below that of a commissioned officer. The Admiralty are unable to regard the striking by a subordinate of a superior officer in the execution of his duty as an offence of a trivial character, but courts martial have full opportunity of taking into account all such circumstances as those referred to by the hon. Member. As regards the last part of the Question, there have been four cases in which the sentences have been annulled or modified during the year 1905.
  MR. BRAMSDON: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Admiralty whether the offence of striking a superior officer in the Royal Navy is regulated by the 16th section of the Naval Discipline Act, 1866, which provides that every person subject to the Act who shall strike, or with any weapon attempt to strike, or draw or lift up any weapon against his superior officer, being in the execution of his office, shall be punished with death or such other punishment as is thereinafter mentioned; and whether, seeing that by Section 86 of the same Act the words superior officer include all officers, including petty and non-commissioned officers, and by the Admiralty Instructions also include acting potty and acting non commissioned officers, lance-sergeants, and lance-corporals borne on the books of one of His Majesty's ships, the Lords of the Admiralty will consider the advisability of recommending that some statutory modication of Section 16 referred to, shall be made in order that, in time of peace at

  695
  least, the maximum punishment should be reduced to that more in consonance with modern practice.
  MR. LAMBERT: The Answer to the first part of the Question is in the affirmative. As regards the second part, the Admiralty do not consider it desirable to make any statutory modification of the Naval Discipline Act intended only to apply in time of peace.

  Naval Courts Martial Sentences
  MR. BRAMSDON: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Admiralty whether their Lordships will consider the advisability of appointing a Committee to examine into and report upon the whole question of the procedure, powers, and sentences of naval courts martial.
  MR. LAMBERT: A Committee has been appointed, and is now sitting, which has under review the whole procedure of naval courts martial. The powers and sentences of courts martial are clearly defined by the Naval Discipline Act, and the Admiralty see no reason for any reference to a Committee on these points.

  Greenwich Observatory.
  MR. ASHLEY: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Admiralty if he can say when the Joint Committee, representing the Admiralty and the London County Council, are expected to report on Greenwich Observatory.
  MR. LAMBERT: It is not possible to say at present when the Committee will be able to report, but their deliberations are being expedited as much as possible.

  Naval Construction.
  MR. NIELD: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Admiralty whether he will state the tonnage and cost of battleships completed for sea during the six years ending 31st March, 1906, by each of the five great naval Powers respectively, and the number of battleships projected at the present time by those several Powers.
  MR. LAMBERT: The tonnage and cost of battleships completed for sea
  696
  during the six years in question by the five great naval Powers are as follows:—

  Tonnage.

  Cost.

  Great Britain

  348,385

  25,538,041

  France

  44,285

  4,086,347

  Russia

  164,726

  14,173,330

  Germany

  143,122

  13,237,105

  United States

  110,210

  9,611,842

  The following battleships are under construction:—

  Great Britain

  6

  France

  6

  Germany

  6

  United States

  12

  Artillery Horses.
  MR. SOAMES: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War if he can state how many additional horses per battery will be required for the mobilisation of the Field Artillery when on the new peace footing, and from what source it is proposed to provide them.
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WAR (Mr. HALDANE,): The numbers of additional horses per battery required for mobilisation of Field Artillery when on the new peace establishment are 102 for each four gun battery and 132 for each two gun battery. These horses would be provided out of the horses registered for military service on emergency.

  Afghan Frontier Defence.
  SIR CHARLES DILKE: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for India whether any expenditure for military protection is involved in the extension to Parachinar of the Kurran strategic railway and the making of the Kabul river strategic railway to the Afghan frontier.
  *THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR INDIA (Mr. MORLEY,): An increase of the strength of the Khyber rifles by one British officer, 354 Infantry and 80 Sowars was sanctioned by the Secretary of State in Council in August 1905, in connection with the sanction given in the previous month to the construction of a line from a point near Jamrud to a point on the Kabul River known as Mile 300. The initial cost of the increase was Rs. 18,000, the estimated annual cost is Rs. 99,500. No proposal has been made for military protection in

  697
  connection with the extension of the Kurran railway to Parachinar which was sanctioned in September 1904.

  Corporal Punishment in India.
  SIR H. COTTON: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for India whether his attention has been drawn to the number of cases in which whipping is awarded as a judicial punishment in India, amounting in 1878 to 75,223, in 1897 to 64,087, and in 1900 to 45,054, and to the fact that this punishment is invariably inflicted in public with a rattan or cane over the bare buttocks; and whether, having regard to the general feeling in India on the subject, and to the abuses attending on whipping as a judicial penalty, he will address the Government of India with a view to the elimination of this punishment from the criminal code of the country, except in cases where the offender is guilty of gross and violent crime against the person.
  MR. MORLEY: This subject was brought to my attention some time ago, and I have addressed a despatch to the Government of India upon the subject.

  Indian Excise Administration.
  MR. HERBERT ROBERTS: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for India, whether the Report of the Committee appointed to inquire into the Excise administration of India has been considered by the Government of India; whether the Report will be issued as a Parliamentary Paper; and, if so, whether ho can arrange for its circulation to Members before the House reassembles in October.
  MR. MORLEY: The Answer to the first Question is in the negative. When I have seen the Report and communicated with the Government of India I will consider whether I can present it; but I am not sure that it can be ready for circulation before the House reassembles.

  Calcutta Improvements.
  MR. LAIDLAW: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for India whether the Government of India has decided upon a scheme for the improvement of Calcutta; what such scheme is estimated to cost; when it is proposed to put it in operation; how the money is to
  698
  be raised; and, if no decision has been arrived at as to how the cost is to be met, will ho consider the advisability of raising it by means of a temporary export duty on jute (of which Bengal has a monopoly) and jute manufactures.
  MR. MORLEY: My predecessor gave his general assent to a scheme, the net cost of which was roughly estimated at about £3,000,000, to be met partly by loans and partly by a grant from general revenues. The scheme is at present under discussion by the Bengal Government and the local authorities concerned, and no final decision has been come to as to the total cost or as to how it should be met.

  Indian Irrigation Works.
  MR. LAIDLAW: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for India, if, in view of the fact that the irrigation works in India are now yielding a return of over 7¾ per cent, on the outlay, he will draw the attention of the Government of India to the matter, with a view to reductions in the charges being made to cultivators in cases whore they are exceptionally high.
  MR. MOELEY: The charges made to cultivators for supplies of water from State Irrigation Works are fixed after careful local inquiry as to the profits of irrigation in the district, and ordinarily are below the economic value of the water to the cultivator. The selling value of land consequently goes up in canal tracts to the benefit of the private owner. I hardly think it necessary to bring the matter to the notice of the Government of India.

  Assam Tea Lands.
  MR. LAIDLAW: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for India if it is proposed to enhance the assessments of tea lands in Assam at the expiration of present leases; if he is aware that on account of depression in the tea trade most of these lands have yielded a steadily decreasing profit for some years past; and if an enhancement of land rent is contemplated in any of the other tea districts in India.
  MR. MORLEY: Under conditions of the leases granted for tea cultivation in

  699
  Assam the land assessment is liable to revision after thirty years, the standard being the rate at which ordinary agricultural land in the district is assessed. This term is about to expire in the case of a number of leases in the Surma Valley districts. In its proposals for re-assessment the local Government has had regard to the present state of the tea industry, so far as relevant to the matter.

  Tibet and Indian Tea.
  MR. LAIDLAW: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for India if there has been any increase of trade between India and Tibet since the late expedition; whether Indian tea is now admitted into Tibet; and, if so, on what conditions.
  MR. MOELEY: The latest figures received show that for the eleven months ending February last the value of exports to Tibet was £111,054, of imports from Tibet, £118,578. The export of tea to Tibet is subject to the Regulations of 1893, and the provisions of the Lhasa Convention of 1904. The Trade Returns do not show any export of Indian tea to Tibet.
  MR. LAIDLAW: Do the Trade Returns show any increase?
  MR. MORLEYasked for notice of the Question.
  MR. FLYNN: It is to be hoped military force will not be used to import Indian tea into Tibet.

  Bengal Schools.
  MR. LAIDLAW: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for India whether he will call the attention of the Government of India to the inadequate provision which has boon made in this year's Estimates for European and Eurasian schools; if he is aware that there are seventy-six such schools in Bengal alone, and that out of the increased appropriation of £16,000 for the whole of India, these schools stand to receive only about £10 each for equipment, scholarships, increase of salaries, and all other purposes; and if ho is aware of the face that nearly all the European schools in India are most inadequately equipped, that the standard of teaching is low, and that the teaching profession is so poorly paid that few new
  700
  recruits of high character and ability can be induced to go into it.
  MR. MORLEY: The Government of India have recently taken steps to increase the resources at the disposal of European schools. These schools constitute a relatively small proportion of the schools of India, and the assistance which can be given to them must ho limited by a due regard for the claims of other classes of schools. Many of the larger European schools have endowments which render thorn independent of assistance from the Government.

  Crown Agents for the Colonies (Appointment of Clerks).
  MR. WALKER: I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether the clerks in the Crown Agents' office are still selected by nomination alone; and whether any stops will be taken to place those appointments upon a competitive basis under the control of the Civil Service Commission.
  THE UNDERSECRETARY FOR THE COLONIES (Mr. CHURCHILL,): In reply to the hon. Member's Question, I am desired by the Secretary of State to say that the internal administration of the office of the Crown agents for the Colonies is entirely in their hands, and that as the holders of these appointments are not members of the Civil Service, there is no intention of adopting the course suggested by the hon. Member.

  Crown Agents for the Colonies (Management of the Office).
  MR. WALKER: I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether his attention has boon called to the recommendations of Sir Augustus Hemming, ex-Governor of Jamaica, that there should be an inquiry into the management of the Crown Agents' office and the way in which the funds are expended, or that there should be laid before Parliament a Return showing the rates of salary and any other form of remuneration received by every member of the staff, together with a detailed and explanatory statement of accounts; and whether either of those proposals is now receiving favourable consideration.
  MR. CHURCHILL: The work and organisation of the office of the Crown Agents for the Colonies has received constant and close attention from successive Secretaries of State, and two Parliamentary Papers on the subject were laid before Parliament in 1904. Lord Elgin does not as at present advised see sufficient occasion for a further inquiry, or for publishing a more detailed statement of accounts than that already published.

  Chinese Coolies—Crime on the Rand.
  MR. FELL: I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether his attention has been called to the decrease in the number of offences committed by Chinese coolies on the Rand; and whether he has any official information as to the causes of this decrease.
  MR. CHURCHILL: I have seen a statement by the Chairman of the Chamber of Mines to this effect in the Press. Official information has not yet been received as to the number of convictions since May last.

  Tarquah Railway Extension.
  MR. FELL: I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether it is proposed to construct a branch railway from Tarquah to the Aucobra River; if so, whether the contract will be submitted for public tender; and whether a more moderate scale of charges will prevail on such railway than on the present railway from Sekondi to Tarquah.
  *MR. CHURCHILL: A scheme is under consideration for the construction of a branch railway from Tarquah to Prestea, but it has not yet been submitted in final form for the decision of the Secretary of State. I am accordingly unable to reply at present to the latter parts of the Question.

  Trials of Native Chiefs.
  MR. J. RAMSAY MACDONALD: I beg to ask the Lender-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he has any official information showing that Tolonko (or Tilonkwe), a Zulu chief,.visited Pietermritzburg on Monday,
  702
  July 23rd, on the invitation of the Minister of Native Affairs, and was immediately arrested; whether ho can inform the House if the charges against this chief are for deeds alleged to have been done last.January, one being a refusal to pay poll tax before it was due; whether, although the charges were denied, the chief is to be tried by court-martial; and what steps His Majesty's Government propose to take to see that the statement made to the House that only natives caught in the act of fighting are to be tried by court-martial is to be respected by the Government of Natal.
  *MR. CHURCHILL: On July 24th the Governor telegraphed as follows:— '' In accordance with instructions sent to Tilonkwe, one of the most important chiefs referred to came to Pietermaritzburg yesterday. He denies charges made against him. He has been allowed to return to his tribe, but summons has been served on him to return next Monday and stand his trial. I believe that he will do so and that exhibition of military force will be unnecessary." Tilonkwe is described by the Governor as one of the chiefs who defied the Government last March. I have no further information but will inquire.
  MR. J. RAMSAY MACDONALDasked whether this was the chief who was being tried to-day by court-martial with closed doors.
  *MR. CHURCHILLsaid be had no information on that point.
  MR. J. RAMSAY MACDONALDsaid the hon. Gentleman had not replied to the latter part of his Question, in reference to the undertaking that only natives caught in the act of fighting would be tried by court-martial.
  *MR. CHURCHILLreplied that he would make inquiries on the subject.
  *SIR CHARLES DILKEasked whether the hon. Gentleman was aware of the natural anxiety which prevailed hero owing to statements by Natal correspondents of London papers announcing the sentences that would be imposed on these chiefs before the trials took place.
  *MR. CHURCHILL: Such statements on the part of newspapers before the trials have taken place are manifestly grossly improper.
  MR. FLYNN: The lion. Gentleman has not explained why these trials are being conducted with closed doors.
  *MR. CHUECHILL: It may be that the Natal Government desire to protect themselves from similar newspaper statements.
  MR. J. RAMSAY MACDONALD: I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he is in a position to state whether Gobizembi, Kulu, and Meseni have been tried by court-martial; and, if so, will he say what charges have been preferred against them, when their alleged crimes are said to have been committed, and what sentences have been passed upon them.
  *MR. CHURCHILL: Messeni was tried for high treason and murder. Gobizembi has been deposed as is shown by the despatches printed at pp. 30 and 37 of Cd. 2905 and p. 3 of Cd. 3027. Inquiry shall be made as to the precise action taken in these cases.

  Siberian Trade.
  MR. FELL: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether, having regard to the rapidly increasing trade with Siberia, he will now consider the advisability of approaching the Russian Government with the object of getting British consuls appointed at some at least of the cities on the Siberian Railway.
  SIR EDWARD GREY: The matter will not be lost sight of by His Majesty's Government. But, at present, I can say no more than I said to the hon. Member in reply to an almost identical Question on March 13th, † except that steps are now being taken with a view to the reappointing of a commercial agent at Vladivostok.
  † See (4) Debates, cliii., 1096.

  Consols.
  SIR. HOWARD VINCENT: I beg to ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer if his attention has been called to the recent decline in the value of Consols, and to the consequent losses of small investors through the Government in that security by depositors in the Post Office Savings Bank; and if ho can suggest any means of preventing in the future such losses by investors in the Post Office Savings Bank.
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER (Mr. ASQUITH,): I am aware that there has been a very considerable decline in the capital value of Consols, to the extent of twenty-seven points in ten years. Holders of Consols through the Post Office Savings Bank who may find it necessary to realise at present prices stock which they purchased at higher prices will necessarily incur a loss, but the risk of such loss is one which has to be taken by all purchasers of securities having a fluctuating capital value, and I see no reason why the Government should be asked to give preferential treatment to any particular class of holders of the public funds.
  SIR HOWARD VINCENTgave notice that he would call attention to this matter on the Appropriation Bill.

  Beer Duty.
  MR. HERBERT ROBERTS: I beg to ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer whether his attention has been drawn the fact that during the period 1900–6 there has been a decrease of 1 41 degrees in the average gravity of beer produced in the United Kingdom; whether this represents approximately a diminution of £340,000 in the yield of revenue derived from this source; and, if so, whether he will consider what action can be taken in order to prevent a further reduction of revenue from this cause.
  MR. ASQUITH: The facts are as stated. The growing preference on the part of the public for lighter beers is, I think, apart from consideration of revenue, a reason for satisfaction. I am

  705
  looking into the question whether such beers are, or are not, in proportion to their alcoholic strength, more lightly taxed than beers of higher gravity; but, even if it can be shown that they have an advantage in this respect, I do not at present express any opinion as to whether that is an advantage which ought to be withdrawn.

  Coinage.
  *MR. ESSEX (Gloustershire,): I beg to ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer, whether he contemplates any new issue of the lower value coins; whether he will consider the desirability of adopting instead of bronze a nickel or other lighter alloy in a convenient form to avoid confusion with the silver coins; and whether he will before making such issue consider the nickel coins of low denomination lately issued in Belgium.
  MR. ASQUITH: I have no evidence that the present coinage is regarded as other than satisfactory by the public generally, and, in the absence of any general demand for an alteration, I should not be prepared to take the responsibility of interfering with it.

  Asylum Attendants—Hours of Duty.
  MR. GEORGE ROBERTS: I beg to ask the President of the Local Government Board whether he has yet caused inquiry to be made from the Lunacy Commissioners as to the number of hours worked by asylum attendants, and the percentage of these attendants who ultimately suffer from lunacy; if so, can he state the results of such inquiry; and whether he proposes legislation on the matter.
  *THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE HOME DEPARTMENT (Mr. GLADSTONE,): I beg to answer this Question on behalf of my right hon. friend. Information on this subject has been collected by the Commissioners in Lunacy. The particulars of the hours during which attendants are on duty cannot well be summarised, but the returns are at my hon. friend's disposal at the Commissioners' office whenever he may care to call and see them. It appears that
  706
  during the last five years fifty-two attendants and ex-attendants (twenty-three male and twenty-nine female) are known to have become insane; that is to say, that, roughly speaking, in any given year 1 per cent, of the average total number of attendants employed in asylums become insane. This figure is slightly in excess of the percentage of insanity in the general population between the ages of twenty and fifty-four. The terms on which asylum attendants are employed is a matter for the Visiting Committees, and I do not propose to introduce legislation on the subject.

  Rescue Homes.
  MR. WEDGWOOD: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he can say how many girls in the non-inspected rescue homes have been sent there with the approval of the justices; and whether he will direct that in future a justice of the peace shall not assent to any girl being sent to any such home.
  *MR. GLADSTONE: As regards the i first point I am afraid that I have no in-I formation, and as regards the second point I have no jurisdiction to interfere.
  MR. WEDGWOOD: Who would have jurisdiction?
  *MR. GLADSTONE: I cannot say.
  MR. T. L. CORBETT: Will the right hon. Gentleman obtain that information?
  *MR. GLADSTONE: I have no power in the matter.

  Children in Charitable Institutions.
  MR. WEDGWOOD: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he has any information to show the number of children under twelve years of age and under twelve months of age living in, or whose mothers are living in, non-inspected semi-charitable institutions where laundries and workshops are carried on; and whether he can state the mortality among such

  707
  children, or obtain any report as to the mortality occurring.
  *MR. GLADSTONE: I am afraid that I have no such information, nor have I at present any means of obtaining it.
  MR. T. L. CORBETT: Will the right hon. Gentleman consider the desirability of introducing legislation giving him power to obtain this information?
  *MR. GLADSTONE: I have already said I hope to bring in a Bill dealing with these matters.

  Wokingham Motor Fatality.
  *MR. WEIR: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he is aware that, on the 17th instant, a motor car, ran into a funeral as it was about to enter St. Paul's Church, Wokingham, resulting in the death of an old lady who was standing in front of the coffin and bearers; will he ascertain whether this accident was duo to reckless driving; and, if so, will he consider the expediency of arranging for the licence of the motorist to be suspended.
  *MR. GLADSTONE: From inquiries I have made it appears that at the inquest the Coroner's Jury brought in a verdict of accidental death. The driver of the motor-car was, however, arrested on a charge of manslaughter and the Justices have committed him for trial at the next autumn assizes.

  Postal Arrangements.
  MR. RENDALL: I beg to ask the Postmaster-General whether he has now completed his departmental inquiries into the postal inconveniences from which the inhabitants of Tormarton, Gloucestershire, are suffering; if not, whether ho is aware that two months have elapsed since he promised to investigate the matter; and, if the desires of the inhabitants of Tormarton are not fully understood, whether he can arrange for a Post Office official to meet a small deputation on the spot to consider the matter.
  THE POSTMASTER-GENERAL (Mr. SYDNEY BUXTON,): I regret the delay. But various local circumstances have pre-
  708
  vented an earlier decision. I hope to be able shortly to take steps to improve the service; and my representative would be glad to ascertain the local opinion on the question.

  Indian Mails.
  MR. LAIDLAW: I beg to ask the Postmaster-General if, when settling the terms of the new Indian mail contract, he will arrange to have the time fixed for the arrival of the homeward mail in London at least twenty-four hours before the departure of the outward mail, during the greater part of the year, and at least twelve hours before departure during the monsoon season, even if this involves departure from Bombay on Friday evening instead of Saturday.
  MR. SYDNEY BUXTON: I am not prepared to commit myself in any way as to the time table of the Indian mail service under a now contract; but the hon. Member may rest assured that I shall endeavour to arrange it in the arrange best suited to the different interests which have to be consulted.

  Mail Van Contracts.
  MR. ASHLEY: I beg to ask the Postmaster-General if he can now state the result of his inquiries into the conditions under which contracts for mail van work are carried on.
  MR. SYDNEY BUXTON: I am pursuing my inquiries on this subject, but they will necessarily occupy some time, and am I not yet in a position to make any general statement as to the result.

  Canadian Mails and Moville.
  THE MARQUESS OF HAMILTON: I beg to ask the Postmaster-General if ho can state if the Allan Line have come to a definite conclusion as to the abandonment of Moville as a port of call for the Canadian mails.
  MR. SYDNEY BUXTON: The Canadian Government, with whom the final decision rested, has now informed mo that it finds itself compelled, in connection with the acceleration of the Canadian mail service, to abandon Moville as a port of call for the direct packets. It is stated that this decision has been

  709
  arrived at most reluctantly and after careful consideration of the strong protest made by the British Post Office against the change. I have from the first pointed out the postal disadvantages which will accrue from the abandonment of the Moville call, and I regret the decision at which the Dominion Government have arrived.

  The Art Gallery at Millbank.
  *MR. P. W. WILSON: I beg to ask the First Commissioner of Works whether it is proposed to utilise the space behind the National Gallery of Art, at Millbank, for the purpose of building a new Stationery Office or other Government Office; and, seeing that such building, if erected, would render it impossible to make additions to the Art Gallery, which is becoming overcrowded with pictures, whether ho will consider the advisability of reserving this ground for the extension of the Gallery.
  THE FIRST COMMISSIONER OF WORKS (Mr. HARCOURT,): The reply to the first paragraph is in the affirmative; in accordance with a scheme sanctioned by my predecessor it was proposed to build the Stationery Office upon the vacant land behind the National Gallery of Art at Millbank. The extensions originally contemplated when the site was offered by the Government to Sir Henry Tate in 1893 have already been made. I will make inquiry as to the future needs of the Gallery, and will reconsider the matter before next year's Estimates are framed. I may mention that some space is still reserved for the purpose of the Gallery.

  Richmond Park.
  MR. BOULTON: I beg to ask the First Commissioner of Works if he is aware of the condition of the roads in Richmond Park; and if he will give instructions for a better system of watering and procure the services of a steam roller in lieu of the one-horse roller at present in use.
  MR. HARCOURT: I am aware that, owing to the prolonged drought, the condition of the roads in Richmond Park has suffered a good deal. There are no funds available for much extra watering
  710
  and rolling this year. In the next financial year I hope it may be possible to purchase a motor roller.
  MR. CATHCART WASONasked the right hon. Gentleman whether ho would either limit the speed of motor cars in Richmond Park or stop them altogether.
  MR. HARCOURTasked for notice of the question as to limiting speed, adding that there would be no excess of speed in the motor roller.

  Westminster County Court.
  MR. NIELD: I beg to ask the First Commissioner of Works whether it is intended to rebuild the West minster County Court, and, if so, when such works of rebuilding are likely to be commenced; whether plans have been pro-pared of the proposed works, and if the same have been approved by the local authority and by the Judge and officials of the Court; and, if not, whether such approval will be required before the building is commenced.
  MR. HARCOURT: The reply to the first paragraph is in the affirmative. The work of rebuilding will be begun so soon as a contract can be made. Sketch plans have been prepared and have been seen by the Judge and registrar of the Court, and the building will be carried out as far as possible to meet their wishes. But I am unable to give any undertaking such as is suggested in the concluding paragraph of the hon. Member's Question. The local authority has no jurisdiction.

  Seamen's Remittances—Deductions.
  MAJOR SEELY: I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade whether he can see his way to remit that part of the charge of three pence in the pound levied on the remittance home of British seamen's wages from Hamburg and other foreign ports, which is now retained by the Board of Trade.
  THE SECRETARY TO THE BOARD OF TRADE (Mr. KEARLEY,): The whole question to which my hon. and gallant friend refers is still under consideration by the three Departments concerned, viz., the Treasury, the Foreign Office, and the Board of Trade; and I

  711
  will take the earliest opportunity of informing him of the decision arrived at.

  Wei-hai-wei Cable.
  MR. WEIR: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury, having regard to the fact that a sum of £800 is placed on the Civil Service Supplementary Estimates under Class VII. for the cost of repairing the cable between Chefoo and Wei-hai-wei, will he state on what ground this cable is being maintained by the British Government.
  THE FINANCIAL SECRETARY TO THE TREASURY (Mr. MOKENNA,): The cable was constructed at the charge of His Majesty's Government and is worked by the Eastern Extension Australasia and China Telegraph Company under an Agreement a copy of which was laid before Parliament, H.C. Paper 151 of 1901. The cost of repairing the cable is borne by His Majesty's Government under the terms of the Agreement.
  MR. WEIR: When does the agreement expire?
  MR. MCKENNAasked for notice.

  Sanitation in the Island of Lewis.
  MR. WEIR: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury if ho will state when the funds will be forthcoming to enable the Secretary for Scotland to take such steps as may be necessary to meet the sanitary requirements of the townships in the Island of Lewis and remedy the evils disclosed in the Report of Dr. Dittmar, the medical inspector for the Local Government Board for Scotland.
  THE SECRETARY FOR SCOTLAND (Mr. SINCLAIR,): The Secretary to the Treasury asks me to answer this Question. As my hon. friend knows, the circumstances in this case are exceptional and difficult, and I regret that it is not yet possible to indicate the policy of the Government in regard to it. The subject is receiving serious consideration.

  Industrial Training for Island of Lewis Children.
  MR. WEIR: I beg to ask the Secretary for Scotland whether he is now in a position to state how many boys and girls respectively resident in the Island of
  712
  Lewis have been recommended by the local authorities to the Scottish Education Department for participation in the industrial training provided for under Section 1 (d) of the Minute of March 19th last.
  MR. SINCLAIR: The applications received from local authorities in the Island of Lewis for grants under Section 1 (d) of the Departmental Minute of March 19th, 1906, for the provision of such initial equipment as may be required for supplying industrial training to boys and girls resident in the Island do not specify any particular number of boys or girls who are recommended for participation in such training. I regret, therefore, that the information desired by my hon. friend is not available.

  Vaccination in Scotland.
  MR. WEIR: I beg to ask the Secretary for Scotland if ho will consider the expediency of introducing legislation at an early date such as will admit of the Conscience Clause in the Vaccination Act of 1898 being extended to Scotland.
  MR. SINCLAIR: I have nothing to add to my reply to the hon. Member for Stirlingshire on May 2nd. †
  † See (4) Debates,clvi.,416 (Reply to W. Wilkic)
  MR. WEIR: I have not the remotest idea what that Answer was.
  MR. SINCLAIR: I will send the hon. Member a copy.

  Dunblane Cathedral.
  MR.ERSKINE: I beg to ask the Secretary for Scotland whether the vesting of Dunblane Cathedral in the Commissioners of Works, as is provided by the National Galleries of Scotland Bill, will affect or in any way interfere with the interests of the cathedral, or the use to which it is at present devoted.
  MR. SINCLAIR: No, Sir. These interests will be safe-guarded; and the use of the cathedral and burial ground preserved for their present purposes.

  Irish Land Commission and Mining Rights.
  MR. EDWARD BARRY: I beg to ask Mr. Attorney-General for Ireland whether any steps have yet
  † See (4) Debates, clvi., 416 (Reply to W. Wilkie)

  713
  been taken as provided in Section 13, Subsection 3, of the Land Purchase Act of 1903, to give to the Land Commission powers to lease or sublet mining rights on lands purchased by them; whether, seeing that, from inquiries made in various parts of the country, the prospects of mining in Ireland are far beyond what was ever before believed, steps will be immediately taken to give to the Land Commission the power of leasing and sub-letting, and thus help to develop the prosperity of the country.
  THE ATTORNEY-GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. CHERRY,): It has been decided that legislation will be necessary to enable the Land Commission to dispose of the mineral rights vested in them under Section 13 (3) of the Act of 1903. The question of introducing such legislation is under the consideration of the Government, and a Bill is being prepared for the purpose.

  Lisnagry (Limerick) Evicted Tenant.
  MR. JOYCE: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether a claim has been forwarded to the Estates Commissioners by an evicted tenant named Patrick Barry, of Lisnagry, county Limerick, who was evicted six years ago from a small farm of land on the estate of Robert L. Brown, at Ballyvarra, Lisnagry; and whether the Commissioners have made any inquiry into the case with a view to having the evicted tenant restored to his holding.
  THE CHIEF SECRETARY VOR IRELAND (Mr. BRYCE, Aberdeen, S.): The Estates Commissioners inform me that they have not received an application for reinstatement from Patrick Barry. They have, however, received an application from Patrick Ryan whoso former holding is stated to be in the occupation of Patrick Barry, and this is probably the case which the hon. Member has in view. Ryan's application will be inquired into in due course.

  St. Johnston, Donegal, Evicted Tenant.
  MR. MACVEIGH: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether the attention of the Estates Commissioners has been called to the case of James
  714
  Gallagher, whose father was evicted from his holding on the estate of Andrew Moody, Rockfield, St. Johnston, East Donegal, in 1869; and whether he will direct the Estates Commissioners to send down an inspector to inquire into the matter with a view to reinstating James Gallagher in the farm of his father who died some time ago.
  MR. BRYCE: The Estates Commissioners inform me that they will inquire into the case of James Gallagher in due course.

  Kilbracken Evicted Tenant.
  MR. T. SMYTH: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland if the Estates Commissioners have received an application for reinstatement from Patrick Pranty, a tenant who was evicted for non-payment of rent on the Pennyfeather estate at Kilbracken, in the county Leitrim.
  MR. BRYCE: The Estates Commissioners inform me that no application for reinstatement has been received from Patrick Pranty.

  Congestion in County Leitrim.
  MR. T. SMYTH: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland if the Royal Commission will hold a sitting in Carrick-on-Shannon, Mohill, or Ballinamore with regard to congestion in county Leitrim, as this county is one of the most congested in Ireland.
  MR. BRYCE: The Royal Commission on Congestion is prepared to consider any application which may be made to it as to holding sittings in any particular place or receiving evidence from any particular district. The next meeting of the Commission will be held in Dublin early in September.

  Coolmountain School Teachers.
  MR. EDWARD BARRY: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that William Murphy, principal teacher of Coolmountain National School, Dunmanway, county Cork, is at present receiving, as principal, a total salary of £75 10s. per annum, while if he remained assistant, his salary

  715
  would, including, capitation bonus and increment, amount to.£80 15s.; and whether considering his increased duties and responsibilities, as well as the more important services rendered to the State by him, steps will be taken to have his salary reasonably increased.
  MR. BRYCE: I beg to refer the hon. Member to my Answer to his previous Question on June 19th,‡ and to the statement which I forwarded to him on that date. The Commissioners of National Education inform mo that Mr. Murphy's salary and emoluments amount to about £76 per annum, whereas if ho had remained an assistant teacher his income would have been £7:2. The matter is entirely one for the Commissioners.
  ‡see (4) Debates, clix.,44.

  Leitrim Evicted Tenants.
  MR. T. SMYTH: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland if the Estates Commissioners have received applications for reinstatement from the following evicted tenants, viz., Michael Dolan, John Kennedy, Constantine Kennedy, Thomas Prior, Michael Dolan, Sarah Prior, Michael McGrail, Owen McGrail, Edward McManus, Margaret McTeague, and Mary Kerrigan, all of whom wore evicted from their holdings on the Marsham estate, in the county Leitrim; and if he will direct the attention of the inspector of the Estates Commissioners to these cases, as all the farms are in the occupation of planters.
  MR. BRYCE: The Estates Commissioners inform me that they have received applications for reinstatement from the evicted tenants named in the Question, and will have the cases inquired into by an inspector in duo course.

  Macgillycuddy Estate, Kerry.
  MR. BOLAND: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether ho is aware that, in the sale of the Macgillycuddy estate, Beaufort, Kerry, sale is refused to Mrs. Elizabeth Joy, of Ardraw, because her husband refuses to give up a small parcel of land which he has held for thirty-six years; that an agreement for purchase
  † See (4) Debates, clix., 44.
  716
  was signed by Mrs. E. Joy for her farm in November, 1901, and an annuity on the purchase money at the rate of 4 per cent. paid since then by her regularly; and that, now in order to coerce her husband to give up his legal rights, she has been threatened with a writ for £97, the difference between her old rent and the annuity since 1901, while, in reality, nothing is duo from her; and whether ho proposes to take any, and, if any, what stops in the matter.
  ME. BRYCE: The Estates Commissioners inform me that eighty-one agreements for purchase, dated April 25th last, have recently been lodged with them in respect of the Macgillycuddy estate. No agreement in the case of Mrs. Joy has been lodged cither with the Estates Commissioners or, prior to the Act of 1903, with the Land Commission; and no annuity or interest has therefore been collected by either body. The Estates Commissioners have no information that Mrs. Joy signed an agreement for purchase in 1901, nor have they any knowledge of the differences alleged to exist between her and the owner. The Commissioners, however, will, when dealing with the estate, inquire as to the exclusion of Mrs. Joy from the proceedings for sale.

  Irish Local Government Return.
  MR. MACVEAGHI beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he has now ascertained if the official circular to the staff of the Local Government Board of Juno 6th, 1905, contained, in every ease under the heading "Place of Education," the entry, "Information not available"; whether the members of the staff were explicitly informed that the Board proposed to answer the query in that form; whether ho is aware that any official objecting to that entry would thus have invited the displeasure of his superior officers; whether he can state why the officials wore not asked whether they wore willing to supply the information ordered to be supplied by the Parliament which votes their salaries; whether the circular was issued by the Assistant Secretary, at the direction of the Vice-President; whether either of them acted at the instance or with the knowledge of the Chief Secretary of the time; and

  717
  whether the Government sanctioned the conduct of permanent officials in Dublin Castle in suggesting to their subordinates to refuse to supply the information called for by order of the House of Commons.
  *MR. BRYCE: I have ascertained that the circular contained all the information which the Local Government Board possessed, and that under the heading "Place of Education" the entry was "No information available." the circular stated that it was proposed to send the information in that form subject to any correction which the person concerned desired to make. I am informed that if an official had objected to the entry, ho would have incurred no official displeasure As a matter of fact, many officials of the board, in response to the circular, supplied information as to their place of education, and incurred no displeasure by so doing. The officials were not directly asked to supply information as to their place of education, because the then Attorney-General for Ireland had advised, and had so informed this House, that heads of departments had no legal right to demand this information, and that civil servants could not be obliged to supply it. The circular was issued by the direction of the Vice-President and with the authority of the then Chief Secretary, whose instructions were that the Board should furnish all the official information in their possession, and should lot each official see the proposed return and add any information concerning himself which he desired to give. I am informed that it is not the case that permanent officials suggested to their subordinates to refuse to supply the information called for by order of this House.
  MR. MACVEAGHinquired why the officials were not asked whether they were willing to supply the information ordered to be supplied by the Parliament which voted their salaries?
  *MR. BRYCE: I have answered that. The then Attorney-General said the officials could not be required to give the information, and, therefore, it was thought that no question in the nature of a summons should be addressed to them, but as a matter of fact, many of thorn voluntarily supplied the information themselves.
  MR. JOHN REDMOND: Does the right hon. Gentleman think it a proper thing for the head office in Dublin when Sending round a circular asking for information in accordance with the decision of this House to fill up in advance in Dublin one of the columns with the statement that no information was available? Is not that a direct hint to the officials not to supply the information?
  *MR. BRYCE: It is not for me to express an opinion about the action of my predecessor. [NATIONALIST cries of "Why?"] Because I had nothing to do with the matter, and it is because I have nothing to do with the matter now; but, as I say, the Vice-President informs me that these matters took place in pursuance of the opinion given by the then Attorney-General by which ho considered himself to be bound.
  MR. JOHN REDMOND: Is it not a perfectly proper Question to put to the right hon. Gentleman whether ho approves of the action of his predecessor in this matter?
  *MR. BRYCE: No, Sir, I do not think so. As the matter is not one that is before me it is not necessary for me to express an opinion, especially as the opinion of the then Attorney-General appears to have been the governing factor.
  MR. MACVEAGH: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the circular only came to light within the past week?
  *MR. BRYCE: I am not aware.
  MR. SLOAN: Is it not a fact that the reason that no information was available was because the officials were left to their own opinions?
  *MR. BRYCE: No, it was because it was thought that there was no right to ask for it.

  River Shimna Fishery.
  MR. MACVEAGH: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether Earl Annesley, through himself or his servants, is allowed to fish in any part of the River Shimna, Newcastle, from which others,

  719
  who arc fishermen by trade, are prohibited from fishing; and, if so, on what grounds.
  MR. BRYCE: I understand that if the Earl of Annesley is a riparian proprietor along the fresh waters of the River Shimna he would have rights of fishing in such fresh waters not enjoyed by the public. Under the Statute Law, netting for salmon in tidal waters is illegal within certain distances of the defined mouths of rivers, except by owners of several fisheries therein. The mouth of the River Shimna has been defined. The Department of Agriculture understand that Lord Annesley claims a several fishery in the vicinity of the mouth of the river, but it is not for the Department to decide whether this claim is justified or not.
  MR. MACVEAGH: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that under the Act of 1842 Lord Annesley cannot be deemed to own the fishery until he has paid rates for ten years, whereas he only began to pay thorn two years ago when Newcastle became an urban district.
  MR. BRYCE:That is a question of law which should be addressed to the Attorney -General.

  Irish Petty Sessions Clerkships.
  MR. LUNDON: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether ex-policemen are eligible for the position of clerkship of petty sessions in Ireland up to the age of 45 years, whilst civilians are ineligible for the same position when they exceed 40 years; and, if so, will ho say why this preference is given to one class beyond the other.
  MR. BRYCE: The general limits of ago for the appointment of Clerk of Petty Sessions are 21 and 40 years, but the higher limit is extended to 50 years in the case of ex-members of the Royal Irish Constabulary, magistrates, barristers, solicitors, solicitors' clerks, and assistants to Petty Sessions clerks. The reason for this extension is that all these persons are presumed to have already acquired a knowledge of Petty Sessions law and procedure.

  Teaching of the Irish Language.
  MR. BOLAND: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether, when the manager of a national school applies to the Commissioners for sanction to introduce the bilingual programme, is the sanction given or refused on the report of a competent Irish-speaking inspector or on the report of an inspector who knows little or no Irish.
  MR. BRYCE: The Commissioners of National Education inform me that when a manager makes application for the introduction of the bilingual programme into his schools, the inspector of the district reports on the application. If the Commissioners have any doubt as to the soundness of the recommendation made by the local inspector, the case is usually sent to one of the special inspectors of Irish for an independent report, before a decision is given by the Board.
  MR. BOLAND: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether his attention has been called to the Statement on page 6 of the Report on the Welsh Intermediate Education system, that the chief inspector reports that, during the past year 2,180 pupils in fifty-three schools received instruction in the Welsh language, an increase of 352 in the number of pupils, and of eight in the number of schools, and that, in three or four years, at the present rate of progress, the Welsh language will attain to a satisfactory position in the county schools; and will ho direct the attention of the National Board in Ireland to this Statement, with a view to its being placed in the hands of those of its inspectors who may still have doubt as to the value of a bilingual system.
  MR. BRYCE: I have seen the statement to which the hon. Member refers, and I have no doubt that the attention of the Commissioners of National Education has also been drawn to it. I should, however, remind the hon. Member that the statement refers to secondary schools and not to elementary schools such as the National Board administer. The question of placing the statement in the hands of inspectors is one for the Commissioners

  721
  to decide, but the policy of the Commissioners in regard to bilingual teaching is of course determined by themselves, and not by their inspectors.

  King's County Police.
  MR. REDDY: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland if he will say what is the population of Shinrone, a village in King's County; whether it is a police district headquarters; can he say how many constables, in addition to the district inspector and head constable, are stationed there; whether, seeing that the salary of the head constable is £104 per annum with apartments, and that his time is occupied in doing the work of the district inspector, who merely signs Returns prepared for him, he will say what stops, if any, he proposes to take to abolish or bring within reasonable limits the unnecessary office of district inspector; and what is the salary of a district inspector, cost of uniform, and travelling allowances.
  MR. BEYCE: I am informed that Shinrone has a population of about 350. It is a constabulary district headquarters composed of four sub-districts. The nominal strength of the station is one sergeant and six constables, in addition to the district inspector and head constable. The salary of the head constable is £91 per annum, with apartments. It is, I am informed, not the case that the head constable does the work of the district inspector; each officer has his own proper work. Steps are being taken to abolish district headquarters which are no longer necessary. Nino have been abolished during the past three years, and further reductions are under consideration. The salary of a district inspector ranges from £125 to £300 per annum. A district inspector also receives allowances for forage, servant, and lodging, amounting to about £130 per annum. Ho provides his own uniform, and receives no allowance for travelling within his district.

  Irish. Trade Reports.
  MR. BOLAND: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that the Foreign Office is prepared to give every facility for the publication, in a succinct form, of all the special Reports about Irish trade which are now appearing from
  722
  time to time in the Consular Reports; and whether the Department of Agriculture will on the completion of these Consular Reports for 1905, undertake the publication in one volume of those special references to Irish trade in consequence of the widespread interest they have aroused in Ireland and with a view to stimulating the trade of Ireland with foreign countries.
  MR. BRYCE: The Department of Agriculture will consider whether extracts relating to Irish trade taken from the Consular Reports referred to can, with advantage, be collated and reprinted with the Reports on the imports and exports of Ireland for 1905 which will be issued by the Department in the course of this year.

  The Royal Irish Constabulary.
  MR. REDDY: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether, in view of the retrenchment taking place in the Army and Navy, any stops will be taken to reduce the police in Ireland; whether he is aware that county and district inspectors spend the principal part of their time in sport and amusement while the duties they are supposed to discharge are done by a head constable or sergeant; will ho say if the police stations at Bracklin, Crinkle, Killoughy, Kilmalogue, and Clonfanlough, King's County, can be abolished, as these stations are in close proximity to others and in a district free from crime; and whether he is aware that Bracklin is within three miles of Tullamore, where there is a staff of twenty police.
  MR. BRYCE: The question of reduction in the Royal Irish Constabulary, in accordance with the scheme prepared in 1903 by the late Government, is under consideration. In that connection, the cases of the stations named in the Question will receive attention. Seven police stations in King's County were abolished last year. The present force at Tullamore station consists of thirteen policemen. I have no reason to think that county or district inspectors, or any members of the Royal Irish Constabulary, permit sport or amusement to interfere with the due discharge of their official duties.
  MR. JOHN REDMOND: Has the scheme for the reduction of the Royal Irish Constabulary initiated by the late Government been dropped?
  MR. BKYCE: It has been suspended to a certain extent.

  Newcastle (County Down) Foreshore.
  MR. MAGVEAGH: I beg to ask the President of the Hoard of Trade whether lie is aware that at the time of the grant to Earl Annesley of a lease of the foreshore at Newcastle, county Down, an undertaking was given by the Department that the Town Commissioners would be consulted before Earl Annesley would be allowed to remove sand or gravel; and whether the Commissioners were consulted with regard to the permission recently given.
  MR. KEARLEY: I am aware that the undertaking referred to was given, and it has in the opinion of the Board of Trade been carried out. The undertaking was given on May 13th of last year, and soon after the Board of Trade informed the Town Commissioners that Lord Annesley had applied for permission to remove sand and shingle from the foreshore recently leased to him by the Board of Trade. The town commissioners objected to the removal of sand and shingle from any portion of the foreshore within the limits of the township. They pointed out, however, that the northern portion of the leased foreshore is not within the limits of the township, and in regard to this portion they stated they did not desire to make any representation and sand and gravel could be obtained therefrom. In accordance with this suggestion the Board of Trade gave Lord Annesley permission to remove sand or gravel during a period of twelve months from the shore north of the township. They informed the Town Commissioners of their action and received no objection from them. The Board in reply to a recent application have consented to a further limited quantity being removed, but confined to the same northern area. As the Town Commissioners had stated on the previous occasion that they did not desire to make any representation as to the removal of materials from the northern part of the leased foreshore, the Board did not consider it necessary to communicate any further with them.
  MR. MACVKAGHgave notice of a further Question for Monday.

  Harbour Grants for Scotland.
  MR. WEIR: I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade, having regard to the fact that a Committee was appointed in 1899 to consider applications for monetary grants in aid of harbours, will he state the conditions under which grants are made, the number of applications received for grants in aid of harbours in Scotland, the number of cases in which grants have been made, and the amount of the respective grants.
  MR. KEARLEY: The conditions laid down by the Treasury for the guidance of the Committee in considering applications for such grants are as follows: — (1) That the Local Authority should undertake and should be in a position to ensure the permanent maintenance of the harbour towards the establishment of which the assistance of the State is asked. (2) That of the total amount required for construction, at least two-thirds should be provided from local or outside sources, and that the contribution from the Exchequer should in no case exceed the remaining one-third. (3) That the inquiries of the Committee should be limited to the case of harbours serving or likely to develop a large fishing district either as ports of departure and landing for the fleet, or as providing refuge on parts of the coast whence the nearest existing harbour is so distant as to destroy the value of fishing grounds which produce a good harvest of fish. Since the appointment of the Committee in June, 1899, twenty applications have been received on behalf of harbours in Scotland, and grants have been made or promised in six cases as follows:—Port-nockie, £1,500; Fraserburgh, £15,000; Peterhead, £28,000; Macduff, £2,000; Lerwick, £4,500; Wick, £20,000.

  Killdysart Postal Service.
  MR. HALPIN: I beg to ask the Postmaster-General whether he is aware that letters coming from the commercial centres of Great Britain and Ireland into Ennis for Killdysart by the mid-day mail remain there till the next morning, to the inconvenience of the merchants and farmers of Killdysart and surrounding district; and whether he

  725
  will have those mid day mails forwarded to Killdysart.
  MR. SYDNEY BUXTON: I will make inquiry on the subject, and will communicate with the lion. Member.

  Lisdrumrea Postal Deliveries.
  MR. T. SMYTH: I beg to ask the Postmaster-General if ho will grant a daily delivery of letters at Lisdrumrea, which is in the district of Carrick-on-Shannon; and whether, seeing that the inhabitants of this townland suffer inconvenience from not having a daily delivery, and that the rural postman from Drumsna delivers letters daily within half a mile of this district, ho will bj directed to make tho delivery from Drumsna to Lisdrumrea daily instead of having the letters delivered to the latter place from Kilnagross as at present three days in the week.
  MR. SYDNEY BUXTON: I am making inquiry on this subject, and will communicate the result to the hon. Member in due course.

  Quilty Postal Arrangements.
  MR. HALPIN: I beg to ask the Postmaster-General whether, in connection with the postal system to Quilty, a station on the South Clare Railway, having a large fishing and kelp industry, also a coastguard and a police station, he will have the mails delivered there by morning and mid-day or evening trains, and not have them as at present brought by cyclists in the morning from Miltown Malbay to Spanish Point, Quilty, Mullagh, and Clonadrum, which is an inconvenience to the industries and general public.
  I beg further to ask the Postmaster-General whether he will establish a telegraph station at Quilty, on the west coast of Clare, to which a number of messages are sent in connection with the fish-drying and kelp industries, and which would be a near station to Mullagh, Clonadrum, Coore, &c, where the inhabitants have to pay heavy charges for telegrams from the nearest station, viz. Miltown Malbay.
  MR. SYDNEY BUXTON: I regret that in view of the large expense already incurred I should not be justified in authorising a second post at Quilty,
  726
  Mullagh and Clonadrum. There is already a second post to Spanish Point. The question of serving the Quilty district by train and of establishing telegraph business at the Quilty Post Office is still under inquiry and I will communicate further with the hon. Member.

  Irish Land Purchase—Stamp Duty.
  MR. EDWARD BARRY: I beg to ask Mr. Attorney -General for Ireland whether ho is aware that upon the transfer of land purchased under the Land Acts stamp duty is required to be paid not only on the amount of purchase money paid for the tenants' interest, but also on the outstanding amount registered against the land by the Land Commission; and seeing that upon the passage of the Land Act of 1903 the then Attorney-General stated that this practice would not be continued under the now Act, whether steps will be taken to relieve tenant farmers of this double charge on the sale and transfer of their lands.
  MR. McKENNA: I must refer the hon. Member to the Answer which I gave to the hon. Member for the West Division of Waterford on March 28th last. ‡I have also answered two unstarred Questions on the subject. I can find no trace of the promise referred to in the last part of the Question.
  ‡See (4) Debates, cliv., 1288.

  Irish Newspapers at the British Museum.
  SIR. THOMAS ESMONDE: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury if his attention has been called to the fact that every issue of Irish newspapers has been sent for years pa-t to the British Museum, whose great difficulty has been found in housing them; whether, in view of the circumstances that these newspapers are of no practical value for purposes of reference or record in England, and of no interest to the English public, ho will consider the question of introducing legislation to transfer the old issues of the Irish newspapers to the National Library in Dublin, and also to alter the arrangement with regard to future issues of Irish newspapers, so that they may be sent to the National Library in Dublin instead of to the British Museum in London; if he will state whether any index to the contents of Irish newspapers
  † See (4) Debates, cliv., 1288.

  727
  sent to the British Museum is made, and, if not, in what way are they made available for purposes of reference; and if he can state the yearly average number of the occasions on which reference is made to them under present conditions, and if any record is kept by the Museum in this particular.
  MR. MCKENNA: Irish newspapers are regularly supplied to the British Museum under the Copyright Act, 1842, and are the property of the trustees. They are housed in the repository at Hendon, with the English Provincial and Scottish and Welsh newspapers. I am informed that there is ample room there for future additions. The collection of Irish newspapers now in the library consists of 760 separate newspapers, bound in 7,680 volumes. They are catalogued in the same manner as the newspapers of England, Scotland, and Wales. The average number of applications made by readers for Irish newspapers during the last five years amounts to 300 each year, or about six newspapers each week.
  In reply to a further question,
  MR. MCKENNAsaid it would require a change in the law before the present practice could be altered. He would consider the desirability of altering it.

The Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland (Expenses).
MR. WEIR: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury, having regard to the fact that a sum of £220 is placed on the Civil Service Supplementary Estimates under Class 7, for repayment to the Civil Contingencies Fund, in respect of special steamers and trains for conveyance of Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland, will he state whether any of this expenditure was incurred when the late Government was in office; and, if so, how much.
MR. MCKENNA: Half this expenditure is in respect of the State Departure of the late Lord-Lieutenant and half in respect of the State entry of the present Lord-Lieutenant.

Naval Policy.
MR. BELLAIES (Lynn Regis): I beg to ask the Prime Minister whether the two-Power standard is the one on which
728
the new naval programme for two years is framed; whether it means, as has hitherto been the case, a margin of safety over the two strongest European Powers in the number of efficient battleships and a large superiority in cruisers; and whether he can state in what respect does the standard under which the new naval programme was framed differ from the one considered by the Sea Lords of the Admiralty when they laid down the minimum requirements of the country in the memorandum of 30th November, 1905.
THE PRIME MINISTER AND FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY (Sir H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN,): The new shipbuilding programme was framed after careful consideration of the programmes of the various foreign Powers, and the recent changes made in them; no new standard has been adopted, and it is considered equal to all the requirements of the nation.
MR. BELLAIRSasked the Prime Minister whether he had communicated to the Admiralty his view that the standard of Franco and Germany was a preposterous one?
SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN: I think they are quite aware of my views.

CABS AND OMNIBUSES (METROPOLIS.)
Report from the Select Committee, with Minutes of Evidence, brought up, and read.
Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 295.]

PUBLIC ACCOUNTS COMMITTEE.
Second Report, brought up, and read.
Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 296.]

MESSAGE FROM THE LORDS.
That they have agreed to—Bills of Exchange Act (1882) Amendment Bill; Isle of Man (Customs) Bill, without Amendment; Fertilisers and Feeding Stuffs Bill; Open Spaces Bill; Dogs Bill; Labourers (Ireland) Bill.
FERTILISERS AND FEEDING STUFFS BILL.
Lords Amendments to be considered upon Thursday, and to be printed. [Bill 335.]
DOGS BILL.
Lords Amendments to be considered upon Thursday, and to be printed. [Bill 336.]
LABOURERS (IRELAND) BILL.
Lords Amendments to be considered To-morrow, and to be printed. [Bill 338.]
NEW BILL.
  SEA FISHERIES (SCOTLAND) (APPLICATION OF PENALTIES) BILL.
  "To provide for the payment to the Fishery Board for Scotland of the penalties or other monies recovered in respect of illegal sea fishing in Scotland," presented by Mr. Sinclair; to be read a second time upon Tuesday, October 23rd, and to be printed. [Bill 337.]

  SUPPLY [19TH ALLOTTED DAY].
  Considered in Committee.
  (In the Committee.)
  [Mr. EMMOTT (Oldham) in the Chair.]

  CIVIL SERVICES AND REVENUE DEPARTMENTS ESTIMATES, 1906–7.

    CLASS II.
    1. Motion made, and Question proposed, "That a sum, not exceeding £29,050, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1907, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Department of His Majesty's Secretary of State for the Colonies, including a Grant in Aid of certain Expenses connected with Emigration."
    *THE UNDER - SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE COLONIES (Mr. CHURCHILL,): It is
    730
    my duty this afternoon, on behalf of the Government, to lay before the Committee the outline and character of the constitutional settlement which we have in contemplation in regard to the lately annexed colonies in South Africa. This is, I suppose, upon the whole, the most considerable business with which this new Parliament has had to deal. But although no one will deny its importance, or undervalue the keen emotions and anxieties which it excites on both sides of the House, and the solemn memories which it revives, yet I am persuaded that there is no reason why we should be hotly, sharply, or bitterly divided on the subject; on the contrary, I think its very importance makes it incumbent on all who participate in the discussion—and I will certainly be bound by my own precepts—to cultivate and observe a studious avoidance of anything likely to excite the ordinary recriminations and rejoinders of Party politics and partisanship. After all, there is no real difference of principle between the two great historic Parties on this question. The late Government have repeatedly declared that it was their intention at the earliest possible moment —laying great stress upon that phraso— to extend representative and responsible institutions to the new Colonies; and before His Majesty's present advisers took office the only question in dispute was, When? On the debate on the Address, the right hon. Member for West Birmingham—whose absence to-day and its cause I am quite sure are regretted in all parts of the House—spoke on this question with his customary breadth of view and courage of thought. Ho said—
    "the responsibility for this decision lies with the Government now in power. They have more knowledge than we have; and if they consider it safe to give this large grant, and if they turn out to be right no one will be better pleased than we. I do not think that, although important, this change should be described as a change in colonial policy, but as continuity of colonial policy."
    If, then, we are agreed upon the principle, I do not think that serious or vital differences can arise upon the method. Because, after all, no one can contend that it is right to extend responsible government, but not to extend it fairly. No one can contend that it is right to grant the forms of free institutions and yet to preserve by some device the means of control. And so I should hope that we may proceed in this debate without any

    731
    acute divergences becoming revealed. I am in a position to day only to announce the decision to which the Government have come with respect to the Transvaal. The case of the Transvaal is urgent, for it is the nerve-centre of South Africa. It is the arena in which all questions of South African politics—social, moral, | racial, and economic—are fought out; and this now country, so lately reclaimed from the wilderness, with a white population of less than,300,000 souls, already reproduces in perfect miniature all those dark, tangled, and conflicting problems usually to be found in populous and i old established European States. The case of the Transvaal differs fundamentally from the case of the Orange River Colony. The latter has been in the past, and will be again in the future, a tranquil agricultural State, pursuing under a wise and tolerant Government a happy destiny of its own. All I have to say about the Orange River Colony this afternoon is this—that there will be no unnecessary delay in the granting to the Orange River Colony of a Constitution; and that in the granting of that Constitution we shall be animated only by a desire to secure a fair representation of all classes of inhabitants in the country, and to give effective expression to the will of the majority.
    When we came into office, we found a Constitution already prepared by the right hon. Member for St. George's, Hanover-square. That Constitution is no more. I hope the right hon. Gentleman will not suspect mo of any malevolence towards his offspring. I would have nourished and fostered it with a tender care; but life was already extinct. It had ceased to breathe oven before it was born; but I trust the right hon. Gentleman will console himself by remembering that there are many possibilities of constitutional settlements lying before him in the future. After all, the Abbé Sieyes, when the Constitution of 1791 was broken into pieces, was very little younger than the right hon. Gentleman, and ho had time to make and survive two new Constitutions. Frankly, what I may, for brevity's sake, call the Lyttelton Constitution was utterly unworkable. It surrendered the machinery of power; it preserved the whole burden of responsibility and administration. Nine official
    732
    gentlemen, without Parliamentary experience, and I daresay without Parliamentary aptitudes, without the support of that nominated majority, which I am quite convinced that the right hon. Member for West Birmingham had always contemplated in any scheme of representative government, and without the support of an organised party, were to be placed in a chamber of thirty-live elected members who possessed the power of the purse. The Boers would either have abstained altogether from participating in that Constitution, or they would have gone in only for the purpose of wrecking it. The British party was split into two sections, and one section, the Responsibles, made public declarations of their intentions to bring about a constitutional deadlock by obstruction and refusing supplies, and all the other apparatus of Parliamentary discontent. In fact the Constitution of the right hon. Gentleman seemed bound inevitably to conjure up that nightmare of all modern politicians, government resting on consent, and consent not forthcoming. As I told the House in May, His Majesty's Government thought it their duty to review the whole question. We thought it our duty and our right to start fair, free, and untrammelled, and we have treated the Lyttelton Constitution as if it had never been. One guiding principle has animated His Majesty's Government in their policy—to make no difference in this grant of responsible government between Boor and Briton in South Africa. We propose to extend to both races the fullest privileges and rights of British citizenship; and we intend to make no discrimination in the grant of that great boon between the men who have fought most loyally for us and those who have resisted the British arms with the most desperate courage. By the Treaty of Vereeniging, in which the peace between the Dutch and British races was declared for ever, by Article 1 of that treaty the flower of the. Boer nation and its most renowned leaders recognised the lawful authority of His Majesty, King Edward VII., and henceforth, from that moment, British supremacy in South Africa stood on the sure foundations of military honour and warlike achievement, far beyond the reach of any transference of one or two seats, this way or that way, in a local Parliament. This decision in favour of even-handed dealing arises from

    733
    no ingratitude on our part towards those who have nobly sustained the British cause in years gone by. It involves no injustice to the British population of the Transvaal. As will be seen from the statement I am about to make, we have boon careful at every point of this constitutional settlement to secure for the British every advantage that they may justly claim. But the future of South Africa, and, I will add, its permanent inclusion in the British Empire, demand that the King should be equally Sovereign of both races, and that both races should learn to look upon this country as their friend.
    Now, Sir, at the beginning of the session the Prime Minister announced that he had decided to send a Committee of Inquiry to South Africa. That Committee has now returned. I would pay some tribute to the work it has accomplished. From every side, from the Boer leaders, from the Progressive Association, testimony has come to the tact, patience, and courtesy and fair dealing which have been exhibited by the members of that Committee. I am not prepared to admit on behalf of the Colonial Office that the Committee brought us back new information on points on which we should have been properly informed. But the Committee has brought us back most valuable intelligence as to the position of the different South African parties, and of their opinions in regard to the various constitutional solutions which have been proposed. The Report of the Committee has only this day been laid before us, signed and complete, but we have had before us from time to time while the Committee was at work in South Africa, and since it returned, very full and detailed information of all their doings and all their opinions, and we are consequently enabled to make a statement of policy in anticipation of the publication of their Report which has not yet been in its final form considered from that point of view by the Cabinet. When I last spoke in this House on the question of the South African constitution, I took occasion to affirm the excellence of the general principle, one vote one value. I pointed out that it was a logical and unimpeachable principle to act upon; that the only safe rule for doing justice between
    734
    man and man was to assume—a large assumption in some cases—that all mem are equal and that all discriminations between them are unhealthy and undemocratic. The principle of one vote one value can be applied and realised in this country, either upon the basis of population, or upon the basis of voters. It makes no difference which is selected; for there is no part of this country which is more married, or more prolific than another, and exactly the same distribution, and exactly the same number of Members would result whether the voters or the population basis were taken in a Redistribution Bill. But in, South Africa the disparity of conditions between the new population and the old makes a very great difference between the urban and the rural populations, and it is undoubtedly true that if it be desired to preserve the principle of one vote one value, it is the voter's basis, and not the population basis that must be taken in the Transvaal—and that is the basis which His Majesty's Government have determined to adopt.
    The right hon. Gentleman the Member for St. George's, Hanover Square, had proposed to establish a franchise qualification of £100 annual value. That is not nearly such a high property qualification as it would be in this country. I do not quarrel with the right lion. Gentleman's constitution on the ground that his franchise was not perfectly fair, or not a perfectly bona fide and generous measure of representation. But it is undoubtedly true that a property qualification of £100 annual value told more severely against the Boers than against the British, because living in the towns is so expensive that almost everybody who lives in the towns, and who is not utterly destitute, has a property qualification of £100 annual value. But in the country districts there are numbers of men, very poor but perfectly respectable and worthy citizens—day labourers, farmers' sons, and others—who would not have that qualification, and who consequently would have been excluded by the property qualification, low as it is having regard to the conditions in South Africa. Quite apart from

    735
    South African questions and affairs, His Majesty's Government profess a strong preference for the principle of manhood suffrage as against any property qualification, and we have therefore determined that manhood suffrage shall be the basis on which votes are distributed. It is quite true that in the prolonged negotiations and discussions which have taken place upon this question, manhood suffrage has been demanded by one party and the voters' basis by the other, and there has been a tacit, though quite informal agreement that the one principle should balance the other. But that is not the position of His Majesty's Government in regard to either of these propositions. We defend both on their merits. We defend one vote one value and we defend manhood suffrage strictly on their merits as just and equitable principles between man and man throughout the Transvaal. We have therefore decided that all adult males of twenty-one years of age, who have resided in the Transvaal for six months, who do not belong to either the officers or the soldiers of the British garrison—because that is a provision, as the right hon. Gentleman recognises, which was manifestly necessary if injustice is to be avoided—should be permitted to vote under the secrecy of the ballot for the election of Members of Parliament
    Now there is one subject to which I must refer incidentally. The question of female suffrage has been brought to the notice of various Members of the Government on various occasions and in various ways. We have very carefully considered that matter, and we have come to the conclusion that it would not be right for us to subject a young colony, unable to speak for itself, to the hazards of an experiment which we have not had the gallantry to undergo ourselves; and we shall leave that quesion to the new legislature to determine.
    I come now to the question of electoral divisions. There are two alternatives before us on this branch of the subject— equal electoral areas or the old magisterial districts. When I say '-old," I mean old in the sense that they are existing magisterial districts. There are argu-
    736
    ments for both these courses. Equal electoral areas have the advantage of being symmetrical and are capable of more strict and mathematical distribution. But the Boers have expressed a very strong desire to have the old magisterial districts preserved. [An HON. MEMBER: Of course they do.] I think it is rather a sentimental view on their part, because upon the whole I think the wastage of Boer votes will, owing to excessive plurality in certain divisions, be slightly greater in the old magisterial districts than in the electoral areas. But the Boers have been very anxious that the old areas of their fomer constitution of their local life should be interfered with as little as possible, and that is a matter of serious concern to His Majesty's Government. Further, there is this great advantage, which I am sure the right hon. Gentleman, though he may not recognise the value of the other argument, will not deny, that there is a great saving of precious time and expense in avoiding the extra work of new delimitation which would be necessary if the country were to be cut up into equal mathematical electoral areas. The decision to adopt the old magisterial areas, which divides the Transvaal into sixteen electoral divisions, of which the Witwatersrand is only one, involves another question. How are you to sub-divide these magisterial districts for the purpose of allocating Members? Some will have two, some three, some a number of Members, and on what system will you allocate the Members to these divisions? We have considered the question of proportional representation. It is the only perfect way in which minorities of every shade and view and interest can receive effective representation. And Lord Elgin was careful to instruct the Committee as a special point to inquire into the possibility of adopting the system of proportional representation. The Committee examined many witnesses, and went most thoroughly into this question. They, however, advise us that there is absolutely no support for such a proposal in the Transvaal, and that its adoption—I will not say its imposition—would be unpopular and incomprehensible throughout the country. If a scientific or proportional representation cannot be

    737
    adopted, then I say unhesitatingly that the next best way of protecting minorities is to go straight for single Member seats. Some of us have experience of double-barrelled seats — a not very pleasant experience—in this country; there used to be several three - barrelled seats. But I am convinced that if either of those two systems had been applied to the electoral divisions of the Transvaal, it would only have led to the swamping of one or two local minorities with which single Member divisions would have returned just that very class of moderate, independent Dutch or British Members whom we particularly desire to see represented in the new Assembly. Therefore, with the desire of not extinguishing these local minorities, His Majesty's Government have decided that single Member constituencies, or man against man, shall be the rule in the Transvaal. But I should add that the sub-division of these electoral districts into their respective constituencies will not proceed upon hard mathematical lines, but that they will be grouped together in accordance with the existing field cornetcies of which they are composed, as that will involve as little change as possible in the ideas of the rural population, and in the existing boundaries
    The Committee will realise that this is a question with an elusive climax. It is like going up a mountain. Each successive peak appears in turn the summit, and yet there is always another pinnacle beyond. We have now settled that the Members are to be allotted to single Member constituencies based on the old magisterial districts according to the adult male residents there. But how are we to apply that principle? How are we to find out how many adult males there are in each of the districts of the country and so to find the quota of electors or proper number of Members for each division? The proverbial three alternatives present themselves. We might take the Lyttelton voters' list. We might take a new voters' list, or we might take the census of 1904. Now, how are we to choose between these alternatives? We have been much urged by some of the leaders of the Progressive Party to adopt the Lyttelton voters' list. We are told that
    738
    it is comparatively recent; that it was framed on official authority; and that it would be easy to add to it the extra voters under the extended suffrage. It is calculated that thirty-six Members would be accorded on that list to the Rand, against thirty-four from the rest of the country, or an absolute majority from the Rand against a 1 other interests and districts in the country. Whether that would be a desirable conclusion to our labours I do not say; but I am bound to admit that the Lyttelton voters' list lies under grave suspicion. I do not make any charge against my right hon. friend in this respect. I am quite certain that he would not lend himself to any electoral fraud, however pious; but it is undoubtedly a fact that one of the political parties in the Transvaal has made strenuous exertions to have as many electors as possible put on the electoral list, and that these exertions have received such a very singular measure of success that there are 3,000 more voters with a property qualification on the electoral list than there were adult males in the same area in 1904. In reply to that curious observation we are told that the population has increased since 1904. We are further told that although during the last eight months there has been a shrinking, a diminution of the population, yet that in the preceding period between the census and the accession of the Liberal Government to power the increase was so large that it exceeded the decrease which has since taken place. Well, I am bound to say that the Committee, the Secretary of State, and the Cabinet as a whole, having carefully examined this matter, cannot feel convinced in regard to this increase. I believe that there had been some small net increase but not sufficient to justify the figures of the Lyttelton voters' list. Certainly it has not been sufficient to remove the suspicion with which that voters' list is regarded. It would be fatal to our whole policy in South Africa if we were to weaken our grant of self-government by founding it on a system open to grave suspicion. The Boers have urged that if this list is adopted it should be carefully scrutinised. The "Responsible" section of the British Party holds the same opinion. The

    739
    Committee have told us that they have not been able to resist the fairness of such a request. Lord Selborne, although not admitting any irregularity, is of the opinion that it is indispensable that if that list is to be employed as the all-important basis for the allocation of seats, it should be scrutinised and revised. And if it is to be revised, and if there are to be added to it supplementary voters, Lord Selborne has pointed out to us that it might take just as long a time as to make a new voters' list, which would occupy seven months. So that with the necessary interval for the arrangements for election, ten months would elapse before the Transvaal would be able to possess responsible institutions. I think we shall have the assent of all South African parties in our desire to avoid that delay. I am sorry that so much delay has already taken place, but it was necessary. The responsibilities we have incurred in this matter are very great. We are quite prepared to bear them. We do not seek to shelter ourselves behind the Committee, or behind South African parties, or behind the High Commissioner. The responsibility rests with the Cabinet and it was necessary that the Cabinet should secure complete information. But to keep a country seething on the verge of an exciting general election is very prejudicial to trade. It increases agitation and impedes the healthy process of development. We are therefore bound to terminate the uncertainty at the earliest possible moment; and we have therefore determined to adopt the census of 1904.
    Let me ask the Committee now to examine the sixteen magisterial districts. I think it is necessary to do so before allocating the Members amongst them. In all the discussions in South Africa these have been divided into three areas—the Witwatersrand, Pretoria, and the "Rest of the Transvaal." Pretoria is the metropolis of the Transvaal. It has a very independent public opinion of its own; it is strongly British, and it is rapidly increasing. It is believed that Pretoria will return three, four, or five Members of the Responsible Party, which is the moderate British party, and is inde-
    740
    pendent of and detached from the Progressive Association. The "Rest of the Transvaal" consists of the old constituencies who sent Boer Members to the old Legislature. There will, however, be one or two seats which may be won by Progressive or Responsible British candidates, but in general the rest of the country will return a compact body of Members of Het Volk. Having said that I now come to the Rand. We must consider the Rand without any bias or prejudice whatever. The Rand is not a town or city, but a mining district covering 1,600 square miles, and whose population of adult males practically balances the whole of the rest of the country. The Rand population is not as some people imagine a foreign population. The great majority of it is British, and a very large portion of it consists of as good, honest, hard-working men as are to be found in any constituency in this country. But there are also on the Rand a considerable proportion of Dutch. Krugersdorp Rural is Dutch and has always been excluded from the Rand in the discussions that have taken place in South Africa and included in the "Rest of the Transvaal." But in addition to that there are the towns of Fordsburgh, which is half-Dutch, Elsbury, which has a considerable Dutch population, and another suburb which also has a Dutch population; and it is believed that the e will afford seats for Members of the Responsible British Party with the support of Het Volk. I must say further that the British community upon the Rand is divided into four main political parties. There is the Transvaal Progressive Association, a great and powerful association which arises out of the mining interest. There is the Responsible Government Association; there is the Transvaal Political Association—a moderate body standing between the Responsibles and the Progressives—and there are the labour associations, which are numerous. There are three main labour associations, or really four—the Independent Labour Party, the Transvaal Labour League, the Trade and Labour Council of the Witwatersrand, and the Trade and Labour Council of Pretoria. The first two of these, I understand, are now

    741
    amalgamating to form a more consolidated and powerful independent labour party. Why do I bring these facts before the Committee? I do it because I feel it necessary to establish these solid and concrete facts in order to show how impossible it is to try to dismiss the problems of this complicated community with a gesture or to solve their difficulties with a phrase, and how unfair it would be to deprive such a community, in which there are at work all these counterchecks and rival forces that we see here in our own political life, of its proper share of representation in the country. Applying the adult male list in the census of 1904 to the three areas I have spoken of, I should allot thirty-two members to the Rand, six to Pretoria, and thirty to the rest of the country; or, if you include Krugersdorp Rural in the Rand, it would read thirty-three to the Rand, six to Pretoria, and twenty-nine to the rest of the country. Arrived at that point, the Committee in South Africa had good hopes, not merely of arriving at a just settlement, but of arriving at an agreement between all the parties. I am not going to afflict the House with a chronicle of the negotiations which took place. They were fruitless. A great deal of what took place was without prejudice, and much of what was said and of what was written may be said to be privileged. Although His Majesty's Government and the Committee have no apprehension whatever in regard to anything that may be published, we will not ourselves be the origin and source from which disclosures of the negotiations and the abortive discussions are made, unless we are provoked thereto by partial publication. It is enough to say that there were good hopes that if the Progressive complaint, that the adoption of the census of 1904 did not allow for the increase in the population that has taken place since the census was taken, could be met, a general agreement could be reached. The Boers, whose belief that we were going to treat them fairly and justly has been a pleasant feature in the whole of these negotiations, and will, believe me, be an inestimable factor of value in the future history of South Africa—the Boers with reluctance and under pressure, but
    742
    guided by the Committee, with whom they were on friendly terms, were willing to agree to a distribution which allotted one more seat to meet this increase of the population in the Witwatersrand area, and the proposal then became 33, 6, and 30, or, including Krugersdorp Rural, 34, 6, 29. The Responsible Party agreed to that. The Progressives hesitated. The great majority of them certainly wished to come in and come to a general agreement on those terms. Certain leaders, however, stood out for one or two or three seats more, and, although Lord Selborne expressed the opinion that the arrangement proposed, namely, 33, 6, 30, excluding Krugersdorp Rural, was a perfectly fair one to the British vote in the Transvaal, those leaders still remained unconvinced and obdurate, and all hopes of a definite agreement fell through. The Committee returned to this country, bringing with them the recommendation that the Government on their own responsibility should fix the allocation of seats at that very point where the agreement of one Party was still preserved and where the agreement of the other was so very nearly won. And that is what we have decided to do. We have decided to allocate thirty-four seats, including Krugersdorp Rural, to the Rand, six to Pretoria, and twenty-nine to the rest of the country. Lord Selborne wishes it to be known that he concurs in this arrangement. He has this day telegraphed:—
    "the distribution of seats represents as nearly as possible the distribution which would result on the basis of voters in equal electoral districts from the formation of a new voters' roll based on adult male British subject franchise, and, this being so, the adoption of these terms should save several months' delay, and the advent of self-government should be antedated by several months."
    AN HON. MEMBER: There is no agreement there.
    *MR. CHURCHILL: I should say Lord Selborne has telegraphed saying he agrees that this is a fair and just settlement.
    MR. LYTTELTON: As to this point?
    *MR. CHURCHILL: As to the number of seats distributed between the different

    743
    areas, which is the vital point of the whole discussion. Now I am quite ready to admit that every Constitution ought to rest either upon symmetry or upon acceptance. Our Constitution does not rest upon either symmetry or acceptance but it is very near symmetry and very near acceptance, and in so far as it has departed from symmetry it has moved towards acceptance, and is furthermore sustained throughout by fair dealing, for I am honestly convinced that the addition of an extra member to the Witwatersrand areas which has been made is justified by the increase of the population which has taken place since the census.
    On such a basis as this the Transvaal Assembly will be created. It will consist of sixty-nine Members, who will receive for their services adequate payment. I believe it will be £200 and so much for every day's attendance; but I must not be understood to speak with any authority on that point. They will be elected for five years. The Speaker will vacate his seat after being elected. The reason for that provision is that the majority in this Parliament as in the Cape Parliament, with which the Government is carried on, is likely to be very small, and it would be a great hardship if the party in power were to deprive itself of one of the two or three votes which, when parties are evenly balanced, are necessary for carrying on the Government. It would be a great disaster if we had in the Transvaal a succession of weak Ministries going out upon a single vote, one way or the other. And it is found that when parties have a very small majority and are forced to part with one of their Members for the purpose of filling the chair, they do not always select the Member who is best suited to that high office, but the Member who can best be spared.
    Now let me come to the question of language. Under the Constitution of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for St. George's, Hanover Square, the Members of the Assembly would have been permitted to speak Dutch if they asked permission and obtained permission from the Speaker. We are not able to lend ourselves to that condition. We are of opinion that such a discrimination would
    744
    be invidious. The recognition of their language is precious to a small people. I think it was the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Croydon who, at Question time the other day, invited me to work myself into a passion because in some part or other of the Cape Colony there were some Dutch people who wished to have Dutch teachers to teach Dutch children Dutch. We should regret intolerant action of any kind; and I am sure the right hon. Gentleman would do so, in theory at least. But on this side of the House we have not so poor an opinion of the English language, with its priceless literary treasures and its worldwide business connections, as not to believe that it can safely be exposed to the open competition of a dialect like the taal. We believe that the only sure way to preserve in the years that are to come such a language as the taal would be to make it a proscribed language, which would be spoken by the people with deliberation and with malice as a protest against what they regarded, and would rightly regard, as an act of intolerance. Therefore we have decided to follow the Cape practice and allow the members of the Transvaal Parliament to address that Assembly indifferently in Dutch or English. I shall be asked what will be the result of the arrangement that we have made. I decline to speculate or prophesy on that point. It would be indecent and improper. I cannot even tell in this country at the next election how large the Liberal majority will be. Still less would I recommend hon. Gentlemen here to forecast the results of contests in which they will not be candidates. I cannot tell how the British in the Transvaal will vote. There are a great many new questions, social and economic, which are beginning to apply a salutary counter-irritant to old racial sores. The division between the two races, thank God, is not quite so clear cut as it used to be. But this I know—that as there are undoubtedly more British voters in the Transvaal than there are Dutch, and as these British voters have not at any point been treated unfairly, it will be easily within their power to obtain a British majority if they decide or desire to obtain it. I am one of those who share the hope that the

    745
    Government that will be called into life by these elections will be a coalition Government with some moderate leader acceptable to both Parties, and a Government which embraces in its Party Members of both races. Such a solution would be a godsend to South Africa. But whatever may be the outcome, His Majesty's Government are confident that the Ministers who may be summoned, from whatever Party they may be drawn, to whatever race they may belong, will in no circumstances fail in their duty to the Crown. I should like to say also that this Parliament will be of a high representative authority, and it will be the duty of whoever may be called upon to represent Colonial business in this House to stand between that Parliament and all unjustifiable interference from whatever quarters of the House it may come.
    There are several subordinate but important matters which require the close attention of the Committee. First of all there is the position of the Inter-colonial Council. That council consists of twenty-six members, of whom sixteen are officials and ten—six from the Transvaal and four from the Orange River Colony—are unofficial, and members of the Legislative Councils of these two Colonies. This body deals with the railways in the two Colonies, is responsible for the administration of the guaranteed loan and the payment of the interest on that loan, and it also administers the constabulary. We value the Intercolonial Council because we see in it the nucleus of that federation which may some day settle many South African questions, place native issues beyond the range of local panics, and secure a steadier and more generous administration. But we feel that it would be inconsistent with our views of responsible government to tie the hands of the local Assemblies in dealing with the Intercolonial Council; and we have therefore inserted a clause in the Letters Patent which enables either colony to recede from and consequently determine the Intercolonial Council on giving, I think, one year's notice.
    I now approach the question of the Second Chamber. That is not a very attractive subject. We on this side of the House are not parti-
    746
    cularly enamoured of Second Chambers, and I do not know that our love for these institutions will grow sweeter as the years pass by. But we have to be governed by colonial practice; and there is no colony in the Empire that has not a Second Chamber. The greater number of these Second Chambers are nominated; and I think that the quality of nominated Second Chambers, and their use in practice, have not been found to be inferior to those of the elective bodies. His Majesty's Government desire to secure, if they can, some special protection for native interests which is not likely to be afforded by any electoral arrangement, I am sorry to say; and we are encouraged in that respect by what took place in the Second Chamber of Natal. The poll tax as sent up by the Lower House was imposed solely upon natives, and the Second Chamber, taking a broader view of the question, removed at any rate the invidious character of the tax, by extending it to all males in Natal. We are unable to countenance the creation in a permanent form of a nominated Second Chamber. But for the first Parliament only, in view of the position of native affairs, in view of the disadvantage of complicating the elections, to which all classes in the Transvaal have been so long looking forward, and most particularly because of the extra delays that would be involved in the creation of an elective body, the Cabinet have resolved for this Parliament only and as a purely provisional arrangement, to institute a nominated Legislative Council of fifteen Members. They will be nominated by the Crown, that is to say at home, and vacancies, if any, by death or resignation, will be filled by the High Commissioner, on the advice of the responsible Minister. But during the course of the first Parliament in the Transvaal arrangements will be completed for the establishment of an elective Second Chamber, and if necessary further Letters Patent will be issued to constitute it.
    Now I come to the question of the natives. Under the Treaty of Vereeniging we undertook that no franchise should be extended to natives before the grant of self-government. I am not going to plunge into the argument as to

    747
    what "native" means or as to its legal or technical character, because in regard to such a treaty, upon which we arc relying for such grave issues, we must be bound by the interpretation which the other Party places upon it; and it is undoubted that the Boers would regard it as a breach of that treaty if the franchise were in the first instance extended to any persons who are not white men as opposed to coloured people. We may regret that decision. We may regret that there is no willingness in the Transvaal and Orange River Colony to make arrangements which have been found not altogether harmful in Cape Colony. But we are bound by this treaty. Meanwhile we make certain reservations. Any legislation which imposes disabilities on natives which are not imposed on Europeans will be reserved to the Secretary of State, and the Governor will not give his assent before receiving the Secretary of State's decision. Legislation that will effect the alienation of native lands will also be reserved. It is customary to make some provision in money for native interests, such as education, by reserving a certain sum for administration by the High Commissioner or some other political or Imperial official. I am not yet in a position to state what form that provision will take; but the Government arc fully alive to their responsibilities in that matter. We propose to reserve Swaziland to the direct administration of the High Commissioner. Everyone who is acquainted with South African affairs knows that Swaziland is in a condition of unrest; and that very vexatious difficulties have arisen from the abominable and foolish concessions that were granted on all sides by the late King Umbandine. A Commission has sat to try to regularise these concessions and to limit or define the evils lying behind them. I would recommend hon. Members to read the White Paper published last week giving an account of Lord Selborne's tours in Bechuanaland, for it is in pleasing contrast with a good deal of the literature we have been forced to read in connection with South Africa. That Paper shows the keen and lively interest which Lord Selborne takes in this aspect of his onerous duties, and proves that the Secretary of State has
    748
    acted wisely in authorising him to deal personally with the difficulties which have arisen in Swaziland, with the limiting provision that no settlement he may make is to be less advantageous to the natives than the existing arrangement.
    I come now to the question of Chinese labour. I have been asked a great many questions about the Witwatersrand Native Labour Association. That association was a voluntary union of all the employers of native labour on the Rand, and it enjoyed practically a monopoly of recruiting. Lately there have been complaints from certain mines. They wished to break away from this association and to recruit independently. The Government have no intention or desire to reinstitute what is called free recruiting. The evils of that system to the natives and the abuses which follow in its train are patent to us all. But we think that between free recruiting and a monopoly of recruiting there ought to be a middle course, and room for several respectable and reputable recruiting bodies. We have received requests from the Robinson group of mines that they should be allowed equal facilities with the Witwatersrand Native Labour Association. Lord Selborne has satisfied himself of the respectability of the agents whom it is proposed to employ. My right hon. friend the Foreign Secretary has approached the Portuguese Government, who have met us with great courtesy and with more than diplomatic celerity, and the Governor-General of Mozambique has been instructed to extend to this recruiting body the same facilities as were enjoyed by the Witwatersrand Native Labour Association. It is to be hoped that this arrangement will have the effect of increasing, without abuses, the supply of native labour, and in the expectation of such an increase the Robinson group of mines have notified us that they will forthwith surrender the 3,000 outstanding licences for Chinese which they hold, so that I think we shall be able to say, with the heavy wastage going on and which will be increased by the vigorous repatriation of bad characters, that the coolie population on the Rand will not have been greatly increased during the difficult transition period in which we shall have been responsible

    749
    for the administration of the Ordinance. It will be possible with the increase, if any, of native labour, to employ a larger proportion of white men in association with Kaffir labour, we cannot say how large a proportion—whether 20, 30, or 40 per cent,; but an experiment is going to be tried on one of the Robinson mines to see how high a proportion of white labour can be profitably employed in association with Kaffir labour. The Government will watch that experiment with interest and sympathy, and the Rouse will realize that it wil be an honest and bona fide experiment when I say that the man to whom it is to be entrusted is Mr. Creswell.
    Now I return to the general drift of my argument. On November 30, 1905, the arrangement for recruiting Chinese in China will cease and determine, and our consuls will withdraw the powers they have delegated, and I earnestly trust that no British Government will ever renew them. A clause in the Constitution will provide, in accordance with the pledge given by the Chancel or of the Exchequer, for the abrogation of the existing Chinese Labour Ordinance after a reasonable interval. I am not yet in a position to say what will be a reasonable interval, but t me must be given to the new assembly to take stock of the position and to consider the labour question as a whole. I said just now there would be a clause with regard to different al legislation as between white persons and other, and to this clause will be added the words—
    " No law will be assented to which sanctions any condition of service or residence of a servile character."
    We have been invited to use the word "slavery" or the words "semblance of slavery," but such expressions would be needlessly wounding, and the words we have chosen are much more effective, because much more precise and much more restrained, and they point an accurate forefinger at the very evil we desire to prevent.
    I have still a threefold project, to expain to the House. Attention has been drawn to the case of the settlers under the and settlement schemes in the Transvaal and Orange River Colony. In the Transvaal land settlement has been
    750
    only a qualified success, but in the Orange River Colony, where more elaborate methods have been tried, good results have been obtained; and quite apart from the economic results, a new and valuable element of population has been introduced into the country which tend to m t gate the asperity of racial distinctions by creating a class of British farmers whose interests are similar to and associated with those of their Boer fellow-subjects. The settlers have expressed anxiety in regard to the constitutional arrangement we are making. We do not share that anxiety, but we are anxious to remove it. It would be a great pity if, through the discouragement of the settlers, results which have been obtained at great cost were to be wasted and swept away. Now we should desire to interpose an administrative screen between the mortgagor and mortgagee in such a way as to secure to the settlers that sympathetic administration which is an integral and essential portion of the original conditions under which they received their land and undertook their holding. We believe that machinery can most easily be provided by the creation of a Land Board under the High Commisioner to administer the funds allocated to the purpose of land settlement. What are those funds? There were £3,000,000 allotted out of the guaranteed loan. Of this sum £2,500,000 have been expended in the purchase of land or employed for the time being in loans to settlers. The law officers of the Crown have expressed the opinion, and it is an important ruling, that in proportion as those sums of money are repaid by the settlers they must be devoted to further purposes of land settlement to which they were ear-marked, or else they must go in diminution of the total debt charge of £35,000,000, of which this country is the guarantor. That is a very important fact which will be appreciated in South Africa; but we should not think it right to erect the machinery of such a Land Board without receiving satisfactory assurances that its creation was agreeable to all parties in the two colonies. But if general consent be obtained, I am confident that real benefits will be secured to South Africa if, instead of these sums of money as they are repaid going to the amortization

    751
    of the debt, they remain devoted to South African purposes, arid continue to add year by year to the population and development of the rural districts.
    I come to the second point. It has been brought to the notice of my noble friend that there are a certain number of hard cases which have arisen out of the settlement of war losses and compensation claims. His Majesty's Government admit no liability in the matter. The injuries of war are irreparable and incommensurable, and it is idle to suggest that afterwards we can go round and liquidate them by money payments. This country has already provided, quite apart from the guaranteed loan, £9,500,000 for various purposes of enabling the Transvaal and the Orange River Colony to regain their condition of economic prosperity, and we are not prepared to ask the House of Commons to vote any more. Anything like a general reopening of these compensation claims would be disastrous to South Africa and would be viewed with consternation by all those responsible for its government. Nevertheless, I am willing to admit that there are certain special cases where persons have suffered, or suppose themselves to have suffered, injustice through the perfectly honest working of the rules which guided the Central Judicial Commission, and that the decisions of that Commission have involved certain persons in acute physical want and suffering. We should earnestly desire that these cases should receive the further consideration of the Colonial Governments.
    Now I reach the third point. The House will remember that when the right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Birmingham was in South Africa he obtained a promise from certain influential gentlemen in Johannesburg to pay a sum of £30,000,000, and that this would be a debt charge on the Transvaal, with a smaller sum of £5,000,000 on the Orange River Colony, and that this should go in diminution of the war debt created in this country. Such a promise had, of course, no regular authority. These gentlemen had no representative right to speak for the population of the Transvaal. But it
    752
    is an undoubted fact that it was in consideration of this promise, and in virtue of this undertaking, this House was persuaded to give the British guarantee to the £35,000,000 guaranteed loan, and as a result of that guarantee the Transvaal and the Orange River Colony budgets have been benefited to the extent of at least £350,000 a year. There would seem, therefore, to be not a legal obligation, but something in the nature of a moral or honourable obligation, upon these colonies in respect of this contribution. I should like also to point out that while the British Government do not waive, formally, their claim to payment under these heads, the borrowing powers of both Colonies will be sensibly impaired, if not, indeed, entirely suspended. We do not desire to deal in a grasping spirit with the youngest colonies in the British Empire. Suggestions have reached us from various quarters, Boer and British, that a release from this obligation would be gratefully welcomed by all parties in South Africa. We have been asked whether the guarantors—those who promised to underwrite the first £10,000,000 at 4 per cent.—would not transfer their obligations to a loan necessarily much smaller, to be expended, not in relieving the British taxpayer or in reducing the National Debt, but on certain South African objects which are agreeable both to the British and Boer populations, and in which His Majesty's present advisers take a keen and lively interest. I am not prepared to make, on behalf of the Government or on behalf of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, any offer or promise of a definite or final character, but we are convinced that there are in these proposals the elements of an arrangement that would withdraw some of the embarrassing and perplexing questions from South African politics, and effect their settlement in a manner agreeable to all parties concerned. We propose, therefore, to instruct Lord Selborne to ascertain by immediate inquiry what the views of South African statesmen upon the outlines of the arrangement which I have proposed are likely to be.
    I have now finished laying before the House the constitutional settlement, and I

    753
    should like to say that our proposals are interdependent. They must be considered as a whole; they must be accepted or rejected as a whole. I say this is no spirit of disrespect to the Committee, because evidently it is a matter which the Executive Government should decide on its own responsibility, and if the policy which we declare were changed new instruments would have to be found to carry out another plan. We are prepared to make this settlement in the name of the Liberal Party. That is sufficient authority for us; but there is a higher authority which we should earnestly desire to obtain. I make no appeal, but I address myself particularly to the right hon. Gentlemen who sit opposite, who are long versed in public affairs, and not able to escape all their lives from a heavy South African responsibility. They are the accepted guides of a Party which, though in a minority in this House, nevertheless embodies nearly half the nation. I will ask them seriously whether they will not pause before they commit themselves to violent or rash denunciations of this great arrangement. I will ask them, further, whether they will not consider if they cannot join with us to invest the grant of a free Constitution to the Transvaal with something of a national sanction. With all our majority we can only make it the gift of a Party; they can make it the gift of England. And if that were so, I am quite sure that all those inestimable blessings which we confidently hope will flow from this decision will be gained more surely and much more speedily; and the first real step taken to withdraw South African affairs from the arena of British Party politics, in which they have inflicted injury on both political parties and in which they have suffered grievous injury themselves. I ask that that may be considered; but in any case we are prepared to go forward alone, and Letters Patent will be issued in strict conformity with the settlement I have explained this afternoon if we should continue to enjoy the support of a Parliamentary majority.
    *MR. LYTTELTON: I have always endeavoured to approach the consideration of this question, both in what I have spoken and in all I have written, in the spirit the hon. Gentleman has displayed at the close of his elaborate and able
    754
    speech. But for the consideration of a subject of this magnitude some further preparation than the statement made by the hon. Member should, I think, in fairness have been granted. Is it right, without a single published Paper, that the discussion of this important subject should be relegated to one day in the dog days of July, when the Government themselves, through the Prime Minister, have admitted a few months ago that they themselves were wofully lacking full information upon it, and had appointed a Commission to supply that information, This information has been in the possession of the Government, and I think it would have been fairer, as well as more dignified, if the Government had placed in the hands of their critics the material which, at the public cost and in the public interest, has been supplied to them. It would be easy to make some Party capital out of the circumstance that the Government have omitted the Orange River Colony from these proposals. But I rejoice that the Government have done so, not because I do not wish well to the Orange River Colony, but because I am satisfied that in substance the Constitution it enjoys is best for the welfare, prosperity, and happiness both of Britons and Dutch in that colony. Here is a colony free from those influences that have made the Transvaal many times the despair of statesmen. Hero is a business-like Arcadia, with no mines and no shareholders, no opposition between town and country, a pastoral and agricultural colony where Britons give their skill and science to the cultivation of the land, and the Dutch give their long experience of the country. I believe that already much progress has been made in smoothing away the ravages of the war in that colony; I believe that both races are settling down; and therefore I applaud the Government for having taken the path of wisdom and left that which was well substantially alone. The statement of the hon. Gentleman that the constitution proposed by the late Government for the Transvaal was not a workable one was probably not serious and certainly will not be accepted by serious persons when it is remembered that it was a constitution which was

    755
    promised at the settlement of the treaty, was promised over and over again in the House, and was scarcely challenged. There are precedents for it in every self-governing colony in the history of the Empire, and it has been received in the House and in the colony with very little dissent. Nothing has occurred to shake the opinion that in the circumstances it is a useful and necessary stage in the evolution of self-government in the Transvaal. What has been the strong motive for the establishment of such a constitution as distinguished from responsible Government? The late Government knew from all sides that the striking feature in the Transvaal during the last two or three years was that both races had co-operated in the honourable task of rebuilding the material prosperity of their country, and in doing so they had drawn towards a better understanding and feeling with one another. I am of opinion that we ought not to establish responsible government in a country unless we are satisfied that the two races lately at war and nearly equal in numbers are so far advanced in the process of fusion as practically to render the colony safe from racial cleavage that might lead to serious disturbance and friction. The reason that operated chiefly on the mind of the late Government was that it is impossible to start such a Government in the Transvaal at the present time without inevitably separating off the two races—just when they have begun in some measure to consolidate and fuse—in the bitterness of Party contest, and thereby to stereotype, emphasise, and en bitter with passion and party conflict racial division. Responsible Government really means Party Government as it exists in this country. No one can say that there are not disadvantages attached to Party Government even in this country, homogeneous, long-settled, with civil war far distant in the past, and, I think, we may say without vanity, with a population trained in Party Government above all other nations. We all know the passionate feelings that arise even at home by virtue of Party Government. Ministries stand or fill by the Vote of Parliament. That is the system which you intend to set up in
    756
    South Africa when Britons and Boers are already drawing together, and when, but for this proposal which I cannot but think unhappy and inopportune, that process might continue, and much friction, passion, and conflict might be avoided. In any circumstances this is a step which would be serious. Has His Majesty's Government given that consideration to the topic which should have been given to it? Why, Sir, in Natal self-government was not conceded for five years after a Select Committee had considered it. We discussed it for three years before it was granted to the Cape Colony. In the great classic instance of Canada Lord Durham recommended the transition to be made deliberately and his recommendation were not carried out for nearly three years after they were made.
    The present Government committed themselves before they knew the facts, and they have been compelled in haste to make good the promises which they gave with such rash precipitation. If this be so, is it possible for any man to say that the Constitution which they have framed will give in any sense a security for the predominance of either one party or the other? I do not think that any one can possibly say what the result of the arrangements which have been made will in point of fact be. You are, therefore, placed in this position, that a form of government for which there is no urgent reason whatever, and which might have been postponed, I believe, by the general agreement of all for some considerable time, has been cast down on the floor of this House by His Majesty's Government though the authors are not themselves aware of what the actual results will be, the state of the country being such that it is most important that those results, before such a step was taken, should be thoroughly and definitely ascertained. It seems to me that there were two courses open to the Government either of which might have been taken. If you had assured the predominance of British, then, at any rate, you would have taken a secure step, but you would, of course, have been confronted with the arguments of the Boers, whom you have attempted apparently to treat with very great cordiality, and that would have been a difficult position to have been placed in.

    757
    The other course open was under a representative system, to hold the citadel as at present by means of the British Executive, and, under a democratic suffrage, to ascertain for your guidance the true will of the country. If that opinion when expressed was in conflict with the true interests you have in South Africa, then you might by means of the Executive and by means of the power of the Executive, have withstood any serious in road on British supremacy in the Transvaal. Either of these two courses was open to you, but you have chosen neither. You have chosen to throw away the advantage of the present situation which is being acquiesced in by the Boer's, and under which they are working with good will in many directions. Bonds of union are being formed, which will now be roughly and rudely disintegrated. What is the general situation in South Africa on which this experiment is to be launched? In Cape Colony there is almost an equilibrium of parties and races, but in a short time 10,000 disfranchised Boer voters will resume their place on the register, so that there may be a Boer majority in the Cape. In the Orange Colony there is an overwhelming Dutch predominance. In Natal, no doubt, a British majority prevails, but on the flank of this situation there is a formidable native question, and there is another matter which ought not to be omitted from consideration. In German West Africa there are 15,000 Regular troops, with seventy-three guns and transport, and a considerable number of Boer volunteers. Recently in the Reichstag a proposal was made by the German Government to bring a railway from the seat of war into Cape Colony. When that proposal was rejected the German Government offered as a concession to the economists to withdraw 5,000 troops if that railway were built. The Party of economy and peace there understood and alleged that the proposa1 meant that they had 5,000 more men there than were necessary for the fighting of a native tribe in South Africa. I merely make that observation because I think it is important to remember that, f there was a disturbance in Europe, the presence of such a large body of German troops with guns, Boers, and natives attached
    758
    to their columns is an element which could not be lost sight of when considering the present state of South Africa. I venture to say that no experiments ought to be made n South Africa the results of which are left in conjecture and which expose us to hazards. I think t would be almost as suitable to make experiments in shot firing in a fiery mine, when the gas is hissing from the seams, as it would be to make an experiment in government without knowing precisely what the consequence would be in the condition of things which obtains throughout South Africa. We on this side of the House are in a position in which, notwithstanding any arguments that may be adduced, we are entirely powerless at the present moment to make arguments, or anything else, have any effect upon the scheme which has been propounded by the Prime Minister through the Under-Secretary. We have been informed that Letters Patent creating the Constitution will be shortly published, and that they will bring about a great change in South Africa. I entirely agree with the Under-Secretary when he said that there is no objection in principle on this side of the House to responsible government. The whole question is one of how, when, and where. Is it opportune now? What reasons have been given for self-government now? I have listened carefully throughout the whole of his long speech, and not one single argument did I hear from the Under-Secretary which attempted to justify the launching of so great an experiment amid all this explosive material. It is not right to institute responsible government merely in order to shirk our own responsibility. It is not right to institute responsible government in order to forsake the obligations of duty imposed upon this country. If hon. Gentlemen opposite really believe that Chinese labour is an iniquity and ought to be at once terminated, they have the power to do it. But it was quite rightly said that this is a question for the Transvaal people themselves to decide and you have the machinery under the old Constitution to decide it. Then, again, there are obligations which rest on the Government to prevent loss to the Civil servants of the Crown who have been

    759
    taken from other parts and positions and placed in this country, and whom they now propose to trust to a new Government, not knowing whether it will be Dutch or of British extraction. Is that a prudent or just thing to do? I venture to think that responsible government such as this, given within four years of such a war between two races who were antagonistic, demands some solid justification. I believed, and it was always my hope, that the process of the fusion of the two races which has begun would eventually, and in no very long time, result in the Colony becoming a fairly solid block in which all Parties would have very much at heart the interests of the entire community. In that position responsible government might have been granted to the Colony without elaborate checks and the Government might have been indifferent whether the majority would be Boer or British. Any one who knows anything about South Africa must view the result of the election that is about to take place in the Transvaal with profound apprehension. I believe myself that within so short a time from the war and with the feeling which prevails at the present time it is not desirable to give to either Party such an absolute majority as to tempt them to advance only the interests of their own Party. The Under-Secretary does not deny that he would regret the placing of such power and such a position in the hands of a Dutch majority. The best we can hope for, therefore, is that neither Party will be in such strong predominance. Let me say then if I may speak on behalf of the Party that sits on these benches we take no responsibility whatever for the arrangement that has been come to by the Government. The responsibility is rightly that of the Government, because they have taken great care that we should not have even the materials on which we could make up our minds as to whether we should take any part or share in the responsibility. They have appointed this Commission. The Commission sat, I suppose by instructions, in the Cape Colony with closed doors, and not one word has been permitted to be published as to what their Report has been to the Government. Without the possession of maps, statistics,
    760
    etc., the House is not able to take any part in the discussion of the wisdom or otherwise of the proposals of the Government. But there are one or two broad suggestions on which I desire briefly to comment. First of all there is the question of manhood suffrage. The Under-Secretary was good enough to say that the qualification set up by the late Government was a very low qualification and that it was absolutely bona fide. It was in the peculiar circumstances of the Colony lower than exists in the Cape Colony and Natal, and there was no reason for upsetting it. Why should they without any precedent in the whole history of the Empire, on first granting responsible government give universal suffrage? That is in contradiction to the practice of every other portion of South Africa. Before the Government did that they ought to have consulted Natal and the Cape Colony on the matter. This is a question which must affect vitally the future federation of South Africa. One would have thought that before giving in hot haste manhood suffrage in the Transvaal—a suffrage differing from that of Natal, the Cape Colony and all the other Colonies in Africa, the Government would have consulted these Colonies in view of future federation. The very peculiar position of the Boers had been very carefully considered by the late Government in the formation of their scheme of electoral qualifications. The Constitution given by the late Government showed not only fairness but generosity to the Boers; by retaining, independently of any other qualifications all of them who had been formerly on the electoral list. But the plan of the Government has complicated the settlement of federation and the difficult problem of the native vote by this unnecessary and ill-considered extension. In the next place the Government have elected to go back to the census of 1904, and have rejected altogether the voters' list which was completed so lately as March last, and against which, so far as I am aware, nothing of any weight has been said. The formation of the last voters' list was entirely regular, and we have Lord Selborne's view that there was nothing irregular in the construction of that list.
    Mr. CHURCHILL: Hear, hear.
    Mr. LYTTELTON: Is it, therefore, right or fair that an impeachment should be made of the bona fides of that list and those who made it, without any opportunity being given to the persons interested to be heard? I am told that although some impeachment was made of this voters list by certain gentleman before the Committee those objections were never brought before the persons who were alleged to be responsible, and that no opportunity from that day to this has been given to them of being heard. That is surely not the way to deal with a list which is the result of great expense and labour. It seems part of the policy of the Government, however, to keep back the facts from the House and from the people of the Transvaal itself. The Under-Secretary gets up and alludes to the fact that there are 3,000 more voters on that list than existed in 1904. That is an innuendo that there was something fraudulent about the preparation of the list. I it not obviously fair for us to know what the grounds of those allegations are? Then as I said before, I must decline, as the Under-Secretary has declined, to speculate as to what the results of the arrangement of seats and the delimitation of boundaries will be. I have no means of knowing. Electioneering is not an exact or a mathematical science, and the utmost I can say is that the majority one way or the other may be two, or three, or possibly four. I do not blame the Government for having preserved the old magisterial areas, because there is no necessity for the further expensive delay involved in creating new ones, but with regard to the abolition or the possibility of the abolition of the Inter-Colonial Council I have, I must say, most grave apprehensions. An infinity of time and labour has been spent upon the administration of the railways and of the Constabulary by the Inter Colonial Council which contains in itself the germ of federation. One of its principal merits is that it deals with the affairs of both the Orange River Colony and the Transvaal and provides a suitable and convenient form of administration of those affairs
    762
    which are common to both Colonies. To take the Constabulary out of the hands of that body and vest the administration in the hands of the Transvaal and the Orange River Colony cannot be economical and must detract from the labours of this body which has, in the opinion of most, worked harmoniously and well, over the area of both Colonies. When we consider the financial aspect, it certainly is unfortunate that the railway system which has been coupled up and worked in the interests of both Colonies should now be severed, and I fear that it is almost inevitable that jealousies will arise in respect to matters which are common to both Colonies. I pass on to the question of the Second Chamber, and so far as the creation of such a chamber is concerned, if it is possible to secure a good Second Chamber we are grateful for that advantage; but I would point out that as compared with the definite and solid power which was held by the executive Government under the old arrangement the creation of a Second Chamber of fifteen persons nominated by the Government for five years is, I am afraid, a somewhat illusory advantage. I was advised by those who know the country intimately that it would be difficult to provide more than thirty-five of sufficient ability and leisure to serve in the Transvaal Legislative Council, and although that number may now be slightly greater it is obvious in view of the immense weight of private business there that it cannot be indefinitely increased if w e are to keep the tone and ability of the assembly such as we should desire The number of members of the assembly has now been increased from thirty-five to sixty-nine, that is to say, it has been nearly doubled, and I am afraid that although there are many able men in the Transvaal there are few men of leisure. Having beaten out somewhat thinly the available talent for legislative purposes the Government propose either to withdraw from it the fifteen members who are to constitute the Second Chamber or to obtain from outside the Legislative Council fifteen men who by that very hypothesis will hardly be of sufficient weight and experience to have much influence as a buffer against any undesirable action of the elective assembly. Still, let me say for what it is worth, if you

    763
    are able to get a sufficient number of men who will take that position and exercise the power it confers, though I am not sanguine that you will get any such number, considering the number of the Legislative assembly,it is better that there should be some such body. I have nothing to say with regard to the proposals made by the late Government as to reserving questions of legislation in regard to the natives. Neither have I anything to say but to applaud the decision as to the reservation of the administration of Swaziland to the High Commissioner. Though I deplore the decision the Secretary of State has come to in regard to Chinese labour I see no objection to somewhat expanding the labour recruiting agencies for natives, provided that adequate and careful measures are taken to secure that the work is in the hands of responsible and proper people. As to the so-called experiment to be made by the Robinson Mines, that is an experiment the worth of which has been tested on many occasions, and I do not think that there is much to be added to the general knowledge which we have already on that subject. Mr. Creswell will no doubt do his best. It is very well known that natives are desired where they can be obtained by the mine owners, and I do not suppose that there is much to be added to what is already known as to the undoubted capacity of the natives to do the work, if you are able to obtain sufficient to do it. The settled policy of the late Government was that the question of compensation for war losses should not be re-opened, and I am glad to hear that the present Government have adopted that action. It needs no further justification than has already been produced, and the mention of the fact that the sum of £9,500,000 has been spent in compensation to individual for injuries suffered from the war. I confess I did not quite follow what the Under-Secretary in his otherwise lucid speech said with regard to the £30,000,000. The position is this, that not merely the representatives of capital but some of the representatives of labour joined in giving the undertaking Of course they were not in a representative position, but it was the best undertaking that could be obtained from the country in its then condition of govern-
    764
    ment. That undertaking was not that the mine-owners should pay £10,000,000 or £30,000,000 or any other sum, but that they should underwrite the issue of the first £10,000,000 of a loan to be raised in the Transvaal. They have on several occasions expressed their willingness to fulfil that bargain, but conditions have not obtained in which it is possible to call upon them to do so. I do not think that anybody who knows the Transvaal will believe that it is possible that £30,000,000 should be paid for war indemnity or for any purpose at the present moment. My own view is that some arrangement ought to be made by which a smaller sum shall be devoted to some purpose good alike for the Transvaal and for this country. I have no right to bind anybody in this matter, but speaking personally with regard to the proposals, which have been laid before the House by the hon. Gentleman, so far as I have been able on the spur of the moment to investigate them, I wish once again to make it clear that, whatever may be their results the Opposition have no responsibility whatever for them. The, conditions under which they are made seem to me to be of great hazard to South Africa and to the interests of this country. They seem to me to be likely to produce far more friction and passionate opposition between the races who have lately been at war than would have existed if they had not been made. They seem to have been made at a time inopportune for South Africa and inopportune here. They have been made in a manner contrary to every precedent in the whole Empire. They have been made in unseemly haste and in a manner contemptuous of the House of Commons. Not a paper or document or single fact has been presented to us by which we could authoritatively inform ourselves upon them. Surely, therefore, it is not unnatural that we should reserve entirely the right to say that we take no part or lot with the Government in responsibility for the ill-effects which I fear— though Heaven forbid—may flow from their proposals.
    *SIR CHARLES DILKEsaid the right hon.

    765
    Gentleman the Member for St. George's, Hanover Square, had, on behalf of his Party, repudiated all responsibility for this settlement. The great majority of those who sat on the Ministerial side repudiated all responsibility for the war out of which this settlement arose, and for the many evils which Sir William Barcourt prophesied would come from the war, with many of which this settlement was itself consistent. The Ministerial Party had decided that the time had arrived when this question should be settled, and there were some who desired that it should be settled by such a settlement as the Committee had heard outlined to-day. There were others who did not agree exactly with the policy put forward by the Government or with the policy of the Opposition when conducting the war, and since. He would like an opportunity to state some views shared by those. The right hon. Gentleman opposite had made a most dangerous speech. There was hardly a word of the speech of the Under - Secretary of State with which he (Sir Charles Dilke) did not agree, although he did not agree with some of the policies that the speech defended. The object of the last speech of the late Secretary of State for the Colonies was dangerous in the extreme, because its policy was a dangerous policy, and could only be supported by dangerous arguments. The right hon. Gentleman had spoken of consulting the Cape and of federation. He agreed that federation could not be overlooked, and the right hon. Gentleman the Prime Minister had a1ready said that his policy was one leading to federation. But when the right hon. Gentleman told them that they ought to have consulted the Cape, what would they have found if they had? They would have found absolute unanimity among both political parties there upon the subject of the franchise of the natives. There was not a leading politician at the Cape, of either side, who did not value the native franchise. The present Prime Minister had gone out of his way twice to declare that the Cape ought never to be called upon to make any alteration in the native franchise The right hon. Gentleman opposite quoted the Cape, and in that dangerous portion of his speech was led into the most injurious illustrations.
    766
    Having quoted the Cape and suggested that we should ask their opinion, the right hon. Gentleman had proceeded to make a most mischievous allusion to the probability of Cape Colony, thinking only of one white race. He said that 10,000 rebel voters were about to be enfranchised in the Cape and that they would turn the scale. That statement was cheered by one supporter. It was almost horrible that such allusions should be cheered, when made thoughtlessly, tending as they did to perpetuate the difference between the two races. This House had to keep in mind the loyalty of South Africa as a whole, black as well as Dutch, the loyalty of the country as a whole, and of the whole Empire, which was mainly black and not white. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for St. George's, Hanover Square, had objected that he whole arrangement was analogous to what occurred in Canada, and read a quotation, the applicability of which was not apparent, from a speech of Lord Durham. We had at one time apparently look d forward to loyalty dependent on British race, and the quotation read asked for a period of rest in Lower Canada until we had planted British settlers there. The loyalty of Lower Canada rested not upon the British but upon the overwhelming French-speaking population. With such a hopeless example of failure of policy before them, why select that as a ground when asking for delay in the present case? The right hon. Gentleman thought there was no precedent for imposing responsible Government on a colony without a long intermediate period. There was no precedent exactly for what had occurred in the case of the Transvaal and Orange River Colony, which we had conquered and annexed against their will, and which had enjoyed a very highly developed form of self-government. It was not until after the rebellion of 1837, and until we recognised the self-government of French Canada, that we for the first time began to make the French Canadians really loyal. The right hon. Gentleman objected to the policy of counting heads, although he counted heads in the case of the Cape. He was one of those who were somewhat impatient of seeing the Liberal party and the Imperial Parliament follow the lead of Sir Percy Fitzpatrick

    767
    and his colleagues by counting each constituency before the result, and he could not entirely excuse the Government from blame for the extreme minuteness with which they had gone into the question of the majority of one, and then were afraid it might be the Speaker, and there might be no majority at all. He believed the majority in this House repudiated this mere counting of heads. They had long ago taken up the position that we were going with all its risks to give responsible government, subject only to this one consideration, that it was impossible not to have a predominant regard to the native and labour interests involved in the settlement. The right hon. Gentleman opposite had said that the results ought to have been more definitely ascertained in advance by a period of delay, as he seemed to suggest was the case in Canada. The case of Canada, however, as he (Sir Charles Dilke) had shown, pointed in the direction of the broad view which, he thought, the majority of this House were inclined to take, of not allowing considerations of the effect of a majority of votes here and there to stop them. In the case of of the Transvaal the Government had had to face a very powerful body of opinion in the Press and in another place, and that opinion, which was not that of the country, or the House of Commons, or the Liberal Party, had, he feared, to some extent prevailed not in the speech of the Under-Secretary but in the programme to which the Government had become committed. There was too much reason to think that in this settlement what was called the Progressive party —a name which he thought was abused —the party of gold magnates of the Rand—had obtained the point to which they attached most importance. These gentlemen had made no secret—in fact they had given away their case with the most stupid frankness—of their demand for British ascendency, which would require an Upper House to make it absolute. They seemed to have got far too much of their own way by what, from their point of view, was really a gerrymandering system. At all events they had got their nominated Upper House, which was the one point to which they attached supreme importance. Of course one reason which weighed with
    768
    great numbers of hon. Gentlemen in this House was the fear that the ascendancy of that party in the Rand would force the Government into a violation of the pledges given to the constituencies upon the subject of Chinese labour, and that danger was entirely dispelled. Personally, he had always regarded the Chinese labour question as a temporary question, and he had always asserted that the native labour question was the permanent or predominant question, and one which we ought to have concerned ourselves most about, because it would be always there; and when the present Under-Secretary and the late Colonial Secretary agreed in attaching supreme importance to these native labour-collecting agencies which were to be worked by the Portuguese authority in the Portuguese territory, what he wanted to see was the native labour of the country itself developed— Kaffirs tempted by proper treatment, by a proper voice in their affairs, and by a proper wage into doing work which they were perfectly competent to do and did do where they were welcome. There had been some disappointment, he thought, with regard to the future as far as the other and greater labour question was concerned. The policy of these gentlemen, who had sent their deputations over here, who had so powerful a representation in the Press, and who expressed themselves with such force in the columns of all the papers, was backed by them—and he had no doubt honestly backed—with arguments to show that the Transvaal was the key of South Africa, and they had also developed a side argument to the effect that the Transvaal would be dominated by the Cape which they looked upon somewhat as disloyal. It had been suggested in some quarters that the existence of an Upper House in the Transvaal Constitution would be a security for this British ascendancy and for the future of South Africa. He was certain that the Under-Secretary of State did not believe that an Upper House in the Transvaal was needed in order to secure the permanence of British supremacy if the Transvaal were the key to South Africa. He was perplexed to find what part the Upper House was to play in the new Constitution. Two views had previously been put forward by Sir Percy Fitzpatrick and his friends at

    769
    different times as to the necessity for a nominated Upper House. One reason was an insidious one in order to attract those who held the views he did, and it was that the Upper House would be a protector of the natives. That had been abandoned in the last few weeks, and another view had been put forward —that it was necessary to British ascendancy. The Government had rejected those views, but they had given no reason for the existence of the Upper House. Failing that reason he attached importance to the arguments of the late Secretary of State, who said there were not the number of men of weight and substance in the Transvaal to equip the two Houses of Legislature, and that the Upper House would be a very weak one or it would withdraw men who could be ill spared from the lower Assembly. In the absence of any reason for the creation of an Upper House, why create it? What part was it going to play in the new Constitution? What was it meant for? Whom was it intended to support or re-assure? So far as it re-assured certain interests it could only reassure them because it pointed the hope that it might be inclined to control the popular interest in the other House. But hon. Members ought not easily to accept this Constitution with an Upper House without knowing what interests it was intended to represent. They were not so enamoured of Upper Houses as to be anxious to create them. They had seen something of them in other colonies. They knew the troubles which in South Africa had been caused by a nominated Upper House at the Cape. Under these circumstances, and looking to a federation in the future, why create an Upper House? Ontario had never had an Upper House, and in Manitoba it was so conspicuous a failure that they abolished it by a unanimous vote and with the concurrence of the Upper House itself, These Upper Houses were very risky experiments indeed, and if they did not need this Upper House for the protection of some great interest, for Heaven's sake let them leave it out of the Transvaal. Sir Percy Fiztpatrick wrote—
    " a nominated Upper House, or otherwise we sacrifice the British majority in the Transvaal and British supremacy in South Africa."
    770
    These were not grounds upon which the British Parliament would ever create such an Assembly. He had already suggested that there were considerations in dealing with any portion of this South African problem which were enormously wider than those presented by the Transvaal and the Orange River Colony because of the interdependence of the South African states in native affairs, and also because of the future in the direction of federation. The present Government admitted to the full that they could not treat the British Empire as a white Protestant Empire. Our glory was that we had welded races together who were proud to live under us, and the experiment of trying to dissociate the white from the black was a mad experiment. They could not treat this question as though it lay between the two white races only, without regard to the map and to the fact that in some parts of South Africa the natives were 1,000,000 to 1,000 white people. While parts of South Africa might be a white man's country, there were enormous portions which never could be a white man's country, and they could not deal with this question by relegating the native side to a paragraph at the end of a Report. The natives were, and must always be, in numbers, and in connection with labour, the predominant race, and must always demand consideration. He was disappointed in the amount of concessional promises that had been given on the native question. He fully admitted that considerable promises were made. The promise of the late Government was a very strong one before the war began, and it was almost as strong at the time when they were told that the war was over, but was not over, and the first attempt at negotiation was initiated. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Birmingham said they would not consent to purchase peace by leaving the coloured population in the position in which they stood before the war. At the present moment it would not be denied that the position of the coloured population was worse than before. A large number of ordinances of the late South African Republic, which were a dead letter, had been enforced since we had been there, and whilst we had always protested in the

    771
    case of that Republic, as we had protested and vetoed legislation in the case of many of our own colonies, against the creation of an absolute colour bar, there was a colour bar at the present moment in the Transvaal, and unfortunately we were forced to continue that colour bar for ever. It was a terrible thing to establish white man-hood suffrage with the total and apparently permanent exclusion from all share of liberty of every single member of the overwhelming majority of people of the country. There probably was no alternative for the present, but our influence with the new Government would be very great under the circumstances which the Under-Secretary had described. He believed that that Government would be a friendly Government and one in which our influence would continue to be great. It would require recklessness on the part of the Transvaal to make the relations otherwise than good. No one in this House with any sense of responsibility would set up the theory that in South Africa there was a rooted refusal to do anything for the native population. In the Cape there was an infinitely better state of things than formerly existed, but it had suffered horribly for its past action. The position of Natal by its own recklessness was on a small scale what the Cape once was. But the Cape had learnt wisdom, and had a native policy which, compared with Natal, was as heaven to hell. Was it impossible or hopeless for us to use on this occasion a friendly voice to a friendly people, to bring about a real recognition of the predominant race a regarded the labour policy of the future? be was glad to hear the Under-Secretary's statement with regard to servile conditions of labour. Be hoped it would be treated as a matter of friendly conference between us, with our ideals, in the interest of the Empire as a whole and the new government in the Transvaal, we urging them by all means and arguments in our power to support a policy on this native question which would be at least as good as that which prevailed in the the Cape. The Under-Secretary's recognition of Swaziland made him believe it might become a second Basutoland. As regarded future federation, whenever
    772
    the policy of the new colonies should point in that direction the interest of the Imperial Government must be dominant in the consideration of the question. They had often heard South African gentlemen say that all they had got to do was to leave them alone, that they were going to look after the Transvaal, and that they would run their show, as they called it, in their own fashion. That was an impossibility. It was a dream, and the sooner they were told it was a dream the better. It was impossible for them to leave it to be settled by the white element in any of the colonies concerned. He did not wish to complicate the matter by introducing any fresh question, but he would point out that there was a small minority of white population among whom a dangerous state of panic prevailed from time to time, causing acts which were most dangerous to the Empire, to South Africa, and to the neighbouring colonies. It was not disloyalty to the Empire, therefore, but a service rendered to the Empire, to point out these facts. He read portions of an appeal in respect of East Africa, addressed to hon. Members, setting forth claims and considerations by a few hundred white men to treat that territory as a white man's colony, though there were hundreds of thousands of natives living in the area. The idea underlying the claims contained in that document was that self-government should be granted, and that a few whites should be allowed to dominate the hundreds of thousands of natives. It was an unjust and indefensible policy, and it was horribly dangerous to the Empire. The Empire could not be run on such principles; but, if it were attempted, then he was certain that the whole fabric would collapse. It was not the policy of this country to give self-government in such circumstances. It was refused to Ceylon over and over again, and to Natal. If, however, in this case of a larger population possessing the appliances of a great civilised State the experiment was to be extended to the Transvaal, it could only be done with the deepest feeling of responsibility to the majority of the people of the country. It was because of the dominant importance in the British Empire of such considerations that he had ventured to put forward

    773
    these ideas, which he knew were not exactly those either of the late Colonial Secretary or of those who sat on his own side of the House.
    SIR GILBERT PARKERsaid that in one sense the worst was over. They gladly welcomed the statement of the Under-Secretary as to what the future government of the Transvaal was to be. He supposed that the Under-Secretary would never in his career make a more important statement than he had made to-day. The whole Empire had been watching for this statement in regard to the Transvaal and Orange River Colony, for it was impossible for any colony that had received responsible government not to view with great anxiety the government which was to be given to these colonies. They had been won by force of arms, in a contest extending over a period of several years, marked by great waste and destruction, in which the colonists themselves had shared in order to maintain the British flag and the permanency of British institutions. The statement of the Under-Secretary, made with great moderation, and in a manner befitting the occasion, was one which would be read in every portion of the Empire with the deepest interest. That interest the Committee this afternoon shared. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for the Forest of Dean had talked of the loyalty of the French Canadians. A generation had passed since—
    SIR CHARLES DILKE: The French Canadians fought for us in 1812.
    SIR GILBERT PARKERsaid that was exactly what he was going to say. The generation which fought against the British at the capture of Quebec had disappeared or grown old and used to the new conditions. Then an Act conferring representative government was passed in 1812. At the beginning of the second generation the French Canadian proved his loyalty. When the revolt took place in 1837 the peace was kept throughout the whole of French Canada. If we had had in the Transvaal and the Orange River Colony such a test of the position of the Boers in relation to our institutions as Canada had, then he, for one,
    774
    would have given his willing adhesion to the proposals made by the Under-Secretary to-day. He did not, however, give willing adhesion to these proposals, and he would tell the Committee why. Was it reasonable to think that three years after the signing of peace the Boers should be given the possibility of coming into power? The substance of these proposals was that there was going to be a gamble with the Executive. While the Boers ought to have representation of their interests with the British, there should be no danger permitted to the permanence of British institutions, no interruptions of the just and considerate administration of British rule, no chance of allowing any of those things to be done that might be done if a Boer Government came into power. The Under-Secretary had said that at Vereeniging the peace was made for ever. That was a good bit of rhetoric, but he was not confident that she prediction would be realised unless we took proper steps to see that the British institutions were preserved over the time of danger. The majority of the people of Cape Colony were loyal, but did the right hon. Baronet forget that 10,000 of the Cape colonists rose against us? Did he forget that Mr. Steyne on the eve of the Treaty of Vereeniging said that perhaps even now Cape Colony was not ripe for the policy we had been pursuing with regard to it? He had made a list of what would be done if the Boers again gained power. They would dismiss the present British officials on the railways, and the Boer workers would be restored; the Constabulary would be reorganised on the Dutch basis; the Customs Union would be broken up; the intercolonial and the railway union would be destroyed; land settlement would be stopped; and there would be a boycotting of British goods. In the Orange River Colony and in the Transvaal there were two of the best agricultural departments in the world; but the Boers wanted to abolish them. Security was very much better than expectation; and he believed that it would be an evil day if the control of defence and education were put into the hands of the Boer. Mr. Smuts, speaking of the Civil servants, had said that when the Boers came into power they would do their best to put back all the old Boer Civil servants in their former positions.

    775
    It was admitted that the Government of the Transvaal under the Boer regime was reactionary and corrupt. That Government had deliberately over-ridden the decisions of the Supreme Court. A Resolution of the Volks Raad was regarded as above any decision which might be given by the Supreme Court. Now, no Resolution of the House of Commons could overide a judgment of the Supreme Court. [An HON. MEMBER on the MINISTERIAL Benches: An Act of Parliament could.] Mr. Smuts had also said that the £10,000,000 which the mineowners had under-written and the £35,000,000 loan guaranteed by the British Government should be distributed amongst the poor Boers. This was part of the old system of bribery and corruption, and it was the intention of the Boer leaders if they came into power to renew the condition of things which existed in the Transvaal previous to the war, and which the people of this country had condemned, even if they did not approve of the war. In the scheme outlined by the Under-Secretary for the Colonies there were some things which he approved of and others of which he disapproved. He did not think that responsible Government should be given so soon after the war. The Under-Secretary for the Colonies had said that the census of 1904 should be taken in order to arrange for the distribution of seats in the new Legislature; but the hon. Gentleman knew right well that there had been a very considerable increase of skilled workers employed in the mines due to the extra unskilled labour which had been employed. Therefore, 3,000 skilled men would be shut out from the voters' register. The hon. Gentleman was evidently desirous of doing some of the gerrymandering which he stated had been done by the Lyttelton Constitution. His contention was that the Lyttelton Constitution would have been for the safety of the Transvaal. He did not believe that they should gamble with the constitution for the Transvaal. He did not believe that an Upper Chamber would be of as much use as some expected, or that it would be any security for the interests of the natives. His contention was that in granting responsible Government to the Transvaal at the present moment the
    776
    Government was taking upon itself a great, a painful, and almost a terrible responsibility. The time was not ready for this change, at all events in the Orange River Colony. He granted that there had been good Government in the Orange River Colony before the war and that there had been good government since; but if we gave responsible government to that colony we should raise bitter issues which would not be settled for many years to come. Since our Government was established in that Colony there had not been a single protest against our administration, and why should we disturb the present state of things? Was it not wise to leave well alone and not to revive memories of the state of things before the war? We must prevent opportunity from being given to our fellow-citizens in the Transvaal and Orange River Colonies, who had not yet learned the methods and spirit of British administration, but who must be trained in our way, and in the constitutional traditions which belonged to us. The Boers had no constitutional traditions whatever. They did not get any good Government through the teaching of the Dutch Colony; it was the British people who redeemed them from the traditions of the Dutch Colony. He considered that the House of Commons when well informed were the most just tribunal in the world, but he believed they were ill-informed upon Colonial questions. Men did not travel and read scrappily. With many of the proposals of the hon. Gentleman, especially manhood suffrage, he was in sympathy, but on the whole he wished to repudiate any responsibility for giving at this time responsible government to the Transvaal.
    *MR. RUFUS ISAACS (Reading)congratulated the Government upon their policy, which had been stated by the Under-Secretary in a statesmanlike manner. That statement relieved the followers of the Government from any feeling of anxiety which they might have previously felt in consequence of rumours which had been current during the last few weeks, which had set some of them wondering as to what was to be the outcrop of that momentous day. They now had a feeling of confidence

    777
    and security as regarded the future. Although, he agreed with a good deal of what the last speaker had said he could not go with him entirely. Everyone would agree that this was a subject which they should not approach in a Party spirit, and throughout the discussion the views of hon. Members had, he thought, been expressed in a befitting manner. He agreed with the right hon. Baronet the Member for the Forest of Dean that a considerable portion of the speech of the right hon. and learned Member for St. George's, Hanover Squire, a former Colonial Secretary, would have been better if it had not been delivered. He was sure that a great many Members of the House, and the country as a whole, would not share the apprehensions which the right hon. Gentleman had expressed. Upon the question of ascendancy he could not agree with a good deal which fell from the right hon. Baronet. It seemed to him that the task the Government had set itself was to deal justly, fairly, and equitably with the claims of Britons and Boer. He could not find that there was this ascendancy in the proposals which had been made, and if hon. Members turned to the number of voters they would find that the number of seats allotted to the Witwatersrand area, as compared with the rest of the Transvaal and Pretoria did not give any undue preponderance. Taking the Transvaal the total adult white male population, excluding aliens, according to the census of 1904 was 91,406, and of that 57,713 were British, and 33,693 were Dutch. If they took into account all those adult white males who would have attained the age of twenty-one in October of this year there would be 98,453, of whom 62,162 would be British and 36,291 would be Dutch. They might, therefore, say that the proportion of British to Dutch was as five to three, and if that was so it could hardly be said that in the proportion of seats which had been allocated there had been an undue preponderance given to the British over the Boers in the Transvaal. Ho would ask the attention of the Committee to this point which seemed to him of great importance when dealing with the allocation of seats. If the Government desired to give
    778
    ascendancy to the British population or to gerrymander the constituencies in such a way as to give to the British an undue preponderance of seats they would have allocated the seats in the proportion of five to three. That was certainly not what the Government had done, and as far as he could find there was no gerrymandering in order to secure ascendancy or supremacy. But if under the new Constitution the allocation of seats gave a British majority, he ventured to say for his own part, and for some of those who sat on the Liberal benches, that that was no argument against the electoral basis upon which this Constitution was to be granted. In the great anxiety which existed that we should deal justly with the Boer population, and in the eagerness to dispel any doubt that might obtain in the Boer mind that we were not dealing with them justly and fairly, there was a tendency to forget that the British also had claims, a tendency the effect of which was quite unconscious upon the part of those who were genuinely anxious to do all they could to reconcile British and Boer, that they might be able to live in peace and concord and insure that a later election, if not the coming election, might be fought on grounds other than racial and for the benefit not of a race but of the Transvaal Colony. He hoped the House would give him and those who might think with him credit for this, that they were not in the slightest degree throwing any doubt on the honesty of purpose of those who might profess to see in the Government proposals a desire to give ascendancy to the British, whereas these Members were anxious to protect the Boers. But in their desire to protect the Boer they must not forget there was also a responsibility in this House to protect the British. He would add a few words, and they would be but few, upon the question of land settlement—a question in which he took great interest. What had fallen from the Under-Secretary upon this point was of much greater comfort than they were led to expect on the last occasion when the subject was discussed. Although he did not profess, and did not desire, to discuss the subject of land settlement in detail, he did wish to call attention to the fact that, in his opinion, there

    779
    was a great future for land settlement in South Africa. There was a great future in the Transvaal for land settlement, and he rejoiced to have heard from the Under-Secretary that the Government had recognised its importance by their method of dealing with it in framing the Constitution. That was a matter for great congratulation. There was to be a land commissioner appointed to carry out a scheme of land settlement, and they were further told on the authority of the law officers of the Crown that the money which came in as repayment from the scheme of land settlement could be again used for making further loans in connection with the scheme. They felt that the Government had done well in taking this course; it would gain for them the approval of a considerable number in this country as well as in South Africa. In conclusion, he desired to say that if he did not feel that the scheme which the Government announced gave security for British institutions in the future, he, notwithstanding the loyalty he bad to the Government and the fidelity with which he was anxious to serve it, would have voted against it. But feeling that the proposals put forward were just and states manlike, ho could support the Government with great confidence, because they had recognised the claims of the Boers without forgetting that the British had a right to demand that in this Constitution there should be security for British institutions.
    MR. EVELYN CECILcomplained that the House was asked to discuss a subject of the utmost importance to the Empire, namely, the Constitution outlined by the hon. Gentleman without the material upon which to discuss it, and it was impossible that it could under these circumstances be discussed adequately. It was most unfortunate that the Government should have so hastily brought forward this proposal without either giving themselves sufficient time to consider it or the House to debate it. He had no hesitation in saying that he and those who sat with him objected to responsible government being given now. When they sat on the other side the understanding was that responsible govern-
    780
    ment should be given as soon as possible. Everything turned on those words "as soon as possible," and he did not think that now was the proper time. There had not been sufficient time for the racial distinctions and feelings to be merged in that oblivion in which it should be the object of both sides of the Committee to merge them as soon as possible. But they would not merge them by raising Party government and Party questions. It was the very tiling which he feared would give rise to the racial bitterness just at the time when that racial bitterness was by degrees subsiding. We did not want British supremacy merely in name. The Treaty of Peace decided that the King was to be supreme, and we did not now or at any future time want to prejudice his authority. He quite concurred that this question should be dealt with from a non-Party point of view. The Under-Secretary had said it was desirable not to delay, and he agreed, because delay might cause injury to trade and produce other serious disadvantages; but upon the other hand they ought not to hurry to such an extent as to be likely to produce greater hostility between the two sections. He congratulated the Government upon leaving the Orange River Colony alone. It was doing well and wanted to be left alone, and he would have been disposed to say the same with regard to the Transvaal. But as the Government had thought otherwise they could only say that this was not the proper time and they hoped this Constitution would not be ill-fated. Was it not a question of common sense? After a severe war had been waged it did not appear to be a wise thing for the victor within three or four years to give equal rights to the conquered and run the risk of allowing them to be the governing force in the conquered territory. He did not think the Government had acted with that statesmanship with which they had been credited; it would have been more statesmanlike if they had deferred for some time this responsible Government, instead of throwing all the forces of disorder in the Transvaal into the melting pot. This was not the time for experiments. They had heard only this year from some responsible leaders of the Boers what their intentions really were. He noticed from the speech

    781
    delivered by Mr. Smuts on the 23rd March at Pretoria that he believed that the British would have no chance of securing a majority in the Transvaal Government if voters rather than population were taken as the basis of representation. He thought that showed that directly responsible government was given bitter Party feeling would develop, and it would take the line of cleavage between Britons and Boers. Mr. Smuts said—
    "Our claims are considered unfair and unreasonable, but we insist upon them with the object of getting a majority in the Transvaal Parliament and ruling the country."
    It was obvious from that what the Boers would strike for. In the face of such a statement it was not judicious on our part to grant responsible government, and thus give Mr. Smuts the chance of realising his ideal. The treatment of the South African Colonies would affect other Colonies indirectly, and it was not improbable that such Colonies as Australia and Canada would feel the reflection of our action in the Transvaal, especially if it turned out that Mr. Smuts' ideals were fulfilled. Mr. Smuts went on to say that it would be their business when elected to assist to restore to their positions in the police and other Departments the ex-officials who were employed under the late Republic. Great Britain had had old Civil servants appointed under Lord Milner's Government who had served this country well, and were they going to sanction responsible government for the Transvaal when one of the objects aimed at would be to displace the old Civil servants and put in their places officials who were of the late Mr. Kruger's way of thinking? What was worse in regard to this question was the probability that the whole - hearted British official would be turned out while the opportunist who was ready to face both ways would be retained in the public service. If responsible government resulted in a Boer majority, all those things might happen, and they might not have happened if the Government had waited a little longer. The racial feeling of which he had spoken would have been much less, and the moment they set fire to the tinder of racial feeling by taking this enormously important action they would give rise to the most disquieting apprehension. He
    782
    trusted that his forebodings would not come to pass, but he thought the Government were running considerably greater risk than if they had refrained from giving responsible government for some little time longer. The responsibility would be upon His Majesty's Government, and the Opposition would refuse to take any part in it at all. He was afraid that the policy which the Government had adopted would result in alienating their friends in the effort to make others.
    *MR. EVERETTdesired most heartily to thank the Government for their proposal at once to give full and complete self-government to the inhabitants of the late South African Republic. Ho was glad that there was to be no gerrymandering, for the benefit of any race or interest, but full, complete self-government, based on manhood suffrage, and equal electoral districts. It was only by treating the inhabitants thus that permanent contentment and loyalty could be hopefully looked for. What were the facts of the situation? We had destroyed and annexed by the sword two free republics of white men in South Africa, which, only eight years ago, were full of contentment and prosperity. There was no better governed State anywhere than the Orange Free State, and no more prosperous country than the Transvaal. Men could go there and make fortunes more quickly than in any other part of the world, and working men could obtain employment there at higher wages than anywhere else. What had brought to an end that contentment and prosperity? Why, an awful war which had its origin in a wicked conspiracy fomented by men of immense riches in South Africa, of which conspiracy the infamous Raid was a part, and at which they had reason to believe the late Government connived. This was what brought on the cruel war, which ended in the overthrow of the two Republics after the most wonderful fight for their liberties that the world had ever seen. For nearly three years those people, descendants of the Huguenots and of the Dutch who made such a stand against the tyranny of Spain and France two centuries ago—men of the best blood in Europe—though under half a million,

    783
    man, woman and child all told, had stood Up against the might of the fifty millions of England and her colonies. For nearly three years these brave farmers stood up against the might of our arms, and at last wore only overcome, not in fighting, but by the destruction of their means of subsistence, by the systematic burning down of their homesteads, the destroying of their crops, and the laying of the whole country waste, as had been done by the armies of no civilised nation for three centuries. We said that we sought no gold and that we desired no territory, but false to those words we had seized the goldfields and had annexed the territory.
    THE DEPUTY CHAIRMANcalled the hon. Member to order, stating that they were dealing with the Colonial Office Vote and present circumstances. The hon. Member was going too far back.
    *MR. EVERETT,continuing, said the present grew out of the past. We were presented with the problem of how we could best restore contentment and prosperity to those conquered and devastated regions and bring the gallant defenders of the country into amicable unity with the British inhabitants who dwelt with them. The only possible way was that which the Government was proposing to adopt—that of giving them the same constitutional freedom, the same equal rights, the same perfect self-government that they enjoyed under their own republics. There was no other way by which those brave and gallant men could be made happy and contented again in the land of which we had robbed them. We could not undo the past—he would to God we could— but let us make the only reparation in our power by restoring to them the full freedom they enjoyed when they were members of republics, with the substitution of our King as their paramennt head. There was every reason to believe that when they found they could enjoy as much freedom under the British Crown as they enjoyed under their own several republics they would settle down with Englishmen and strive with them to lift up the country out of its dire distress and make it again one of the happiest lands on
    784
    God's earth. He thanked the Government for its purpose to give at once and completely full, honest, free, self-government, to those brave men whom we had so cruelly wronged in the recent war, into which we had been drawn by unscrupu'ous and designing covetous men.
    *MR. WEDGWOODsaid that what they had to consider in regard to these proposals was what the results were likely to be to South Africa, and how in framing the Constitution they could ensure those results being satisfactory not only to South Africa but also to this country. He would like the Committee to consider an alternative. Everybody had assumed that by gerrymandering the constituencies or the franchise they could get a British majority or a moderate majority in South Africa. The figures that had been published upon this subject were wholly illusive. When the census of 1904 was taken there was no means of deciding whether a man was a Briton or a Boer, and the only way in which the figures had been arrived at was by going through the names and judging whether the persons bearing those names were likely to be British or Boer. There were scores of Boer families in the Transvaal bearing British names, but they belonged to the Dutch race. A large number, too, of those with British names would at the next election vote against the capitalist Party because they were very suspicious of the Progressives and of anyone connected with the Chamber of Mines. The uninitiated man in the Transvaal was apt to think that his country had been governed for the List four years by the Progressive Party and that Government had been associated with the worst depression South Africa had ever known. It was impossible for any country to suffer such depression without the Government becoming unpopular. There could only be one result of all this and it was that Het Volk would be returned with an enormous majority. No amount of altering the basis of the franchise could alter the fact that at the next election the Transvaal would return a Dutch majority. Under these circumstances how were the Government going to protect the interests of the British? He should like

    785
    to say a word as to the Boer view in regard to Chinese labour. The Dutch had the good old-fashioned prejudice of returning the most wealthy members of their constituencies to represent them, and naturally they were most interested in keeping up the mines. Therefore, they could not rely on such representatives taking anything but a very narrow capitalist interest in the future of the mines, because their own private interests would be in the direction of the development of the mines. It should not be forgotten that the Boer leaders had not put forward their opposition to Chinese labour on the same grounds as the people of this country: their opposition arose on account of the outrages committed on the Rand. Consequently, when they got into power, they would make the restrictions on the Chinese greater than they were at the present time, and control them more in the manner of the Kimberley compounds. And how would they deal with the great danger of secession? The Boers would look upon the British as the people who had devastated their country, and left them without any roofs to shelter their families. They would begin by federating with the Orange River and Cape Colonies —not Natal—and the further step— secession—might naturally follow. Therefore the House must take into consideration the chance of the Boers seceding gain. If they did secede would the British fight them again or not? The Government should make up their minds upon this question now. He would try to show what the result of secession would be. A good many hon. Members sitting on the Ministerial side were frequently taunted with Majuba Hill during the election. The Liberal Party had lived it down, but Majuba was not good for the Liberal Party. After the war the Transvaal Government borrowed £35,000,000 and this country guaranteed the interest. Of course, the Boers had no voice in the borrowing of that money, or in the way it was spent. Part of it went to the British settlers, another part to the natives, and some of it was spent on public works, and he thought the latter had been ill spent. Over £2,000,000 of that sum went to purchase land for
    786
    British subjects to settle upon. Under those circumstances how could we expect the Boers to regard very seriously the obligation of paying interest upon that loan? When a South American State repudiated its debts, it had a very evil future before it, because nobody would lend it any money. But the case was far different with the Transvaal. The result of all this would be that the British taxpayer in the end would have to pay the interest on that loan. He would like to ask how far we were going to allow a bare majority in any Colony to secede, and endanger the interests of a large body of loyal British? If a majority of the British indeed wished to secede and set up on their own account and be free from any connection with the Mother country, there would be no hesitation in bidding them God speed. But were we justified in saying to any South African Colony, where there was a large British population which objected to leave the Mother country, "Go and do as you like?" Were we justified in handing over British interests and British subjects to the Boers? He did not think that would be fair. We should not willingly repeat 1881 in 1911. We had supplied to the railway companies there an enormous number of British railway servants. Were we to allow these men to be deprived of their work simply because they were British? He thought it was onr duty to look after these people. Were we to allow the schoolteachers, nurses, post office servants and all that vast number of British emigrants to lose all they possessed and to be turned out of the country, to which they went under British protection?
    MR. LUPTON: We should compensate them.
    *MR. WEDGWOODsaid we could never compensate any one who had been in South Africa for having to leave that country, and there was a risk of that happening under present circumstances. How could it best be avoided? He believed that the nominated second Chamber would do very well for the present, but it was only a temporary Second Chamber, and we had to look

    787
    farther afield than five years if we were finally to unite South Africa to the British Empire. The first step had been taken that day in manhood suffrage. He was quite certain that one way of securing South Africa for ever was to stop the present division of society in South Africa between Briton and Boer. Manhood suffrage would do that in time. At present they had no British unskilled labour in South Africa and very little Boer unskilled labour. They would have to wait a few years before they got a Party that was not a mere race Party. There was one Party only which was truly international and paid no attention to anyone's country of origin, and that was the Socialist Party. If they could start a powerful Socialist Party in the Transvaal we would then have that country united to the British Empire. It might perhaps sound strange to say that; but if we could wipe out the question of Briton and Boer, and substitute any other division of political Parties, we should set up once and for all a healthy instead of an unhealthy division in politics in that country. If this second Chamber, which was to form part of the Constitution, was to be nominated in South Africa we should have there in miniature a copy of the lower Chamber. He therefore strongly urged on the Government that they should nominate the second Chamber in England, and that it should consist to a certain extent of English people representing our interests there, and that they should be sent out to South Africa. He believed that they would soon acclimatise themselves to South African conditions, and that they would carry the necessary weight with the people of this country. We should thereby secure not only a satisfactory solution of the Chinese labour question, but also better treatment for the natives and for the British Indians. If we could send out, for example, two Members of the Labour Party to represent the interests of labour, the hon. Member for Tyneside to represent the interests of the natives of South Africa, and the hon. Member for East Leeds to represent the interest of British Indians, he believed that the capitalists or the Randlords might have a bad quarter of an hour, but he would like to see the healthy
    788
    indignation of the hon. Member for Tyneside when he found that tie railway servants or other Englishmen were dismissed or penalised simply because they came from England. He believed the House could rely on any men they liked to send to look after the interests of the British people and also of the natives. They would have a safeguard in South Africa for all they wanted whatever Party was in power there. The Government of South Africa was concerned not only with the questions of Chinese labour and of the natives, but also with the keeping of the country open as an outlet for emigration of our own people at home. If the second Chamber was nominated here the Government should be careful not to make a second House of Lords, but to make the second Chamber representative rather of the grades of society not represented in the elected Chamber. It should be representative of British Indians and of poor people who went out there from this country.
    *MR. MOLTENOsaid it was inevitable that the Liberal Party should differ from the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for St. George's, Hanover Square, upon this question. On the Minsterial side of the House they were the heirs and trustees of the great Liberal traditions of freedom and self-government, and under their auspices self-government had been extended over an enormous area of the world. The object of our country had been to seek not profit in the government of those distant dependencies, but only the good of the dependencies. The Liberals of to-day should act in a manner worthy of that great tradition. He desired to examine the problem of the new Constitution in the light of our Colonial history. There were three periods in that history. In the first the American Colonies were free to govern themselves, subject only to our commercial system, and without any interference whatever. They defended themselves and paid for their defence in the Seven Years War. In the second period we began to tamper with that self-government, and the result was that we lost the American Colonies. We attempted to govern those that remained

    789
    and those subsequently acquired through a central London bureau and an agency on the spot. We were rudely awakened to the folly of that policy, by the rebellion in Canada which led to the policy of responsible government and gradually to free government being concened, thus forming the third period. In the Constitution which the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for St. George's, Hanover Square, proposed for the South African Colonies he went back to the worst period of our Colonial history; he took the Constitution which brought Canada to rebellion, and thought that by means of that form of government he was going to bring peace and prosperity to South Africa. It was a Constitution which contained provisions for a nominated Speaker, a nominated Executive, and nominated Members. Our Colonial history showed that everyone of those conditions had been the cause of conflict between the Mother country and one or othe of the self-governing Colonies. The right hon. and learned Member had quoted Lord Durham in support of his view. He was indeed astonished to hear him quote that portion of Lord Durham's statement, because if the hon. and learned Gentleman had had any knowledge of our Colonial history he would have known that Lord Durham had two policies. One was to give the utmost freedom and self-government, and the other was to destroy the French nationality. The second policy entirely failed and had to be abandoned. In regard to the other, Lord Durham said of Crown Colony government in Canada—
    "It is difficult to understand how any English Statesman could have imagined that representative and irresponsible Government could be successfully combined."
    At this period of our history it would be a retrograde step to go back to that policy. As Lord Durham very well pointed out—
    "the Crown must submit to the necessary consequences of representative institutions; and if it is to carry on the Government in unison with a representative body it must consent to carry it on by means of those in whom that representative body has confidence."
    He would also remind the right hon. and learned Gentleman of what was said by another great authority, Edward Gibbon
    790
    Wakefield. To give representative institutions, he said, without responsible government was very much like lighting a fire in a room with the chimdey closed; how long it would last depended on the strength of the fire. There was no constitutional authority in favour of a policy of that kind. He contended that all Colonial history showed that the nominative principle had been a constant cause of conflict between the Mother country and the Colonies. It had nearly brought the Cape Colony to a rebellion. When the Cape Constitution was given in 1854, nomination was so distasteful that the Chief Justice, Sir James Wylde, reported that it was impossible to use it for the Upper Chamber. His advice was followed, and the Upper Chamber was made elective. Again, a nominated Executive kept the Cape in a state of unrest, of dissatisfaction, and of decay; and it was finally abolished in 1872. Further, a nominated Executive and Council brought Griqualand West to rebellion in 1875. In 1877, when we took over the Transvaal, self-government was promised, but was not given; and instead a nominated Council and Executive were appointed. The result was that in a few years that Colony was in a state of rebellion. He believed that if we had given responsible self-government to the Transvaal in 1877, there would never have been the rebellion and subsequent war. Were the Liberal Government going to repeat the error of that day? The Liberal Party had condemned the policy of the Conservative Government, and had urged the adoption of a different principle; and therefore they should guard against repeating the errors of the Liberal Party in 1881, which did not grant the self-government often promised to the Transvaal. In all climes, under the snows of Canada, in torrid Australia, in New Zealand, and in South Africa, wherever Englishmen were found, nominated officials brought about the same results; while complete self-government had brought order and loyalty out of chaos and discontent in all these Colonies. It had been entirely successful in Cape Colony. Sir Henry Barkly reported—
    " Responsible government had the immediate effect of substituting a single strong governing power for the dual forces of the

    791
    Executive and Legislature, which were before as often as not exerted in opposite directions. Responsible government promises, as I anticipated, to anglicise the Colony. The SECOND READING of the Bill to permit free testamentary disposition passed the other day by an enormous majority in the Assembly. The Government Railway Bill authorising an expenditure of nearly £5,000,000 in constructing nearly 800 miles of railway was read a second time unanimously. A few years ago both would have been objected to as dangerous devices of the Governor."
    Coming to a later period, Sir Bartle Frere said—
    " After a long aeries of dislocating Kaffir wars, the English Government resolved that the system of allowing colonial management of colonial affairs to grow and develop, instead of being ruled from England, should be practically tried. The plan has answered fairly in other far-separated Colonies. It has been for eight years only in operation at the Cape. I believe it has answered still better there than in Canada or Australia.
    Sir Hercules Robinson pointed out that there were three contending forces in South Africa—Imperialism, self-government, and Republicanism—and that the only means of preserving the British Empire in that part of the world was by granting self-government. The grant of self-government in the Cape Colony had brought progress and contentment and good relations between the Dutch and the British—between the white and the black. The Constitution there knew no colour; and it was unfortunate that we could not have the same throughout South Africa owing to the Vereeniging Terms. It would have been better for all the races in South Africa had it been open to the Government to give the same wide and liberal Constitution which had been given to Cape Colony. He was glad to hear the Under-Secretary say that the Government had provided for reservations until the franchise should be given to all coloured and native races. They had been told of the dire results which would follow from the Dutch majority in the Transvaal and the Orange River Colony; but, as a matter of fact, in the Cape Colony there had always been a Dutch majority, and no dire results had followed from it. The granting of self-government and equal institutions had led there to the effacement of racial trouble, as it had done in Canada and Louisiana. Who were these Boers? Were they not worthy partners for us?
    792
    They were a stalwart race, with a great record in Europe. They had faced and resisted the two Empires of Spain and France under Louis XIV. They were great in civic virtues, in law, art, and commerce. Had they lost their virtues in Africa? Sir B. Durban said "No"; he could quote many other authorities as to their character but would only now refer to the fact that The Times "History of the War" stated that—
    "the Dutch were a race who defended their homes and property with a bravery and resource which had rightly won the admiration of the world."
    He was glad of this tribute to the Dutch, for it would go far to reconcile the races in South Africa. He knew that the best Dutch appreciated the best Englishmen. He knew of no English gentleman who had been brought into contact with Dutchmen in South Africa who did not respect them. He knew himself that there was mutual respect and mutual admiration between the two races in Cape Colony which he hoped would be extended to the whole of South Africa. The Cape was free, and, because free it was loyal. Sir Wilfrid Laurier and Mr. Reid of New South Wales attributed the loyalty of Canada and Australia to the complete concession of self-government. Why should that precedent not be followed in South Africa? Our late trouble was due to not allowing self-government free play. The Cape and Natal had protested against force and war; and no other Colonies would have stood the interference we tried with the Dutch States. Our periods of active interference had always been disastrous to ourselves, and to South Africa, as they had been in Canada. And why? Because we could not interfere wisely in a distant country. Lord Durham had pointed out that—
    "the complete and unavoidable ignorance in which the British public and even the great body of the legislators are with respect to the real interests of distant communities so entirely different from their own produces a general indifference which nothing but some great Colonial crisis ever dispels, and responsibility to Parliament or to the public opinion of Great Britain would, except On these great and rare exceptions, lie positively mischievous if it were not impossible."
    He would remind the House that Lord Durham had considered the policy of retaining Canada by force and the

    793
    policy of conceding self-government, and that he came to the conclusion which events have since amply justified, viz., that—
    " Men have not indulged in vain the hope that there is a power in British institutions to rectify existing evils, and to produce in their place the well-being which no dominion could give. It is not in the terrors of the law, or in the might of our armies, that the secure and honourable bond of connection is to be found. It exists in the beneficial operations of those British institutions which link the utmost development of freedom and civilisation with the staple authority of an hereditary monarchy and which, if rightly organised and fully administered in the Colonies as in Great Britain, would render a change of institutions only an additionel evil in the loss of the protection and commerce of the British Empire.
    He (Mr. Molteno) believed that British institutions would bring about the same results in South Africa. What could the Dutch hope for under British institutions; what Lord Elgin, the father of the present Colonial Secretary, hoped for the French to have in Canada when he said—
    " Let them feel that their religion, their habits, their prepossessions, their prejudices if you will, are more considered and respected here than in other portions of this vast continent, and who will venture to say that the last hand which waves the British flag on American ground may not be that of a French Canadian? "
    What closer relation could there be between two brothers, and yet a parent often interfered and destroyed good relations. So it was with two nationalities and two parties. He was glad to say that the Governors of our Colonies were now always instructed to keep themselves apart from parties and local politics; and wherever that had been done they had been successful, and he hoped it would bring about the same results in South Africa. They had heard a good deal in recent years of loyalty and disloyalty, and the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Croydon said that a short time ago that he and his Party were special friends of the Colonies.
    MR. ARNOLD-FORSTER: I never said that.
    *MR. MOLTENOsaid he understood the right hon. Gentleman to represent that he and his Party were specially interested in the Colonies. Then again the right hon. Gentleman the Member for West
    794
    Birmingham said "the Colonies are with me to a man" and he claimed credit for their loyalty. It appeared to him that the loyalty of the Colonies was not due to any one man whom the shifting forces of politics might place in power for a time, but that it was due to a system of equal laws and great constitutional principles, which were not the monopoly of any one Party but were the growth of ages and the outcome of the energy, activity and character, as they were the glory, of the whole British people. Such loyalty we have in Canada, in the Cape Colony and in other Colonies, and he believed that by similar methods we could secure it in South Africa. We had had great crises in our history. By denying freedom we lost our first American Colonies, by conceding it we had retained Canada. We had another crisis to-day to meet in South Africa, and surely it would be a glaring mistake to go back and rely on those dumb idols, brute force, crafty policy, and racial supremacy. We had gone through a period of stress and storm in the War and we must now allow freedom and self-government to flourish once more in a land of liberty. No exercise of force could turn a Frenchman or a Dutchman into an Englishman, but what we could do was by generous treatment to convert them to loyalty to the institutions of our Empire. The constant lesson of Colonial history was that this could only be obtained by the grant of self-government, and Lord Elgin would add to a name-already illustrious a higher renown by closing a dark and ill-omened chapter in our history; by giving to the continent of Southern Africa as his father had to that of Northern America the supreme gift of equal rights, equal privileges, equal duties, secured to all its varied inhabitants by the free grant of an ungrudging share in the great and splendid liberties of our own unrivalled constitution.
    MR. ARNOLD-FORSTERsaid that what the people of this country wanted to know was whether the Government had considered the effect of their policy on the all-important question — the keeping or the losing of South Africa. Not a single word had been heard that evening from any Government speaker

    795
    which inspired a feeling that what they were about to do would operate in favour of our keeping South Africa. If those for whom he spoke could help it they did not intend to lose South Africa. We had recently been engaged in a war with the Boers and he did not suppose the Boers were different from every other race. If we had been defeated here in England three years ago, and the enemy had taken our country, every Englishman would grasp at the first opportunity which presented itself to regain all that we had lost. It was quite impossible that within three years all the passions and prejudices which had been engendered by the conflict could have been eradicated. Supposing it should happen that there was a Boer majority at the elections and that the Boers used their majority to recover all they had lost, what protection had we? None, except war again.
    *MR. J. RAMSAY MACDONALDthought it appropriate to express his disappointment that the discussion of such varied and extensive materials should have been compressed into one day. There were many important matters with regard to Natal, the most important of which he had called attention to in a series of questions at an earlier hour, which, however, he had no time to discuss now. The mind of the Committee was fixed on this question of the Constitution, and upon that he proposed to speak. He agreed thoroughly with the right hon. Member for Croydon that if they could find a guarantee that the granting of this Constitution would contribute to the stability of the Colony they would not be opponents to it. The question, therefore, was, could they in their minds find such a guarantee. He did not share the view of right hon. and hon. Gentlemen on the Opposition side of the House regarding the question of the Constitution for the Orange River Colony. It might be perfectly true that Sir Hamilton Gould-Adams enjoyed the confidence of the Dutch party there, but as soon as they gave the Transvaal self-government they placed the Orange River Colony in a position of inequality, and demands would be made there for self-government, because every
    796
    day self-government was carried on at Johannesburg the Orange River Colony was being insulted whilst it was being governed by a benevolent dictator. He did not, however, understand that a Constitution for the Orange River Colony was to be long postponed. He would like to know how long it was to be postponed.
    MR. CHURCHILL: The South Africa Committee have not yet presented us with their report from the Orange River Colony, but it is our intention to give responsible government to the Orange River Colony at the earliest possible moment and in such a way as to secure fair and effective representation of all classes of the population.
    *MR. J. RAMSAY MACDONALDheartily welcomed that statement. He believed profoundly that taking the Dutch in both colonies into our confidence in a whole-hearted way would not merely retain our authority in South Africa, but would make it much more real and much more secure than it was at present. He wished to bring before the Committee the labour view of the situation. It was extremely important for the Committee to remember that parties in South Africa were not merely British and Dutch; that they were divided even more by economic than by racial differences, and he hoped that when the constituencies were being carved out very great care would be taken that the boundaries were so drawn that the labour forces on the Rand would not be split up in such a way as to render labour representation practically impossible. With regard to the question of manhood suffrage he desired to join in the warning of the right hon. Member for St. George's, Hanover-square, not upon the merits of the proposal, but in reference to the position of the native. He could not conceive anything more objectionable than one standard of franchise for the white man and another for the coloured man. The one effective way for the natives to bring their influence to bear was to allow them to bring pressure to bear on all the constituencies. But if the whites had adult suffrage, he was afraid that could not be the condition of a native suffrage as well. He saw

    797
    that the basis of election was to be the voters' list, but he thought that representation should be on the basis of population. If there was no floating population there would be no difference in election on the basis of the voters' list and on that of population. If the seats were distributed according to the numbers on the voters' list that would give an undue advantage to those people who had simply gone to exploit the country. He would remind the Committee that every labour political association had pronounced in favour of population. It had been suggested that if there was a Dutch majority in the Transvaal a great many things might happen, as for instance that the exclusively English character of the Civil Service would be altered, or that education might be developed on the lines that Lord Selborne had just discovered to be the right lines. But what was wanted at Johannesburg at the present time was a wise infusion of Dutch and English administrators in the same offices, and until we had that we should not have the efficient administration which all desired. When we used the expression British and Boer it was used in an absolutely meaningless sense. What was "British" In South Africa? It was used as if it was a thing which divided the population sharply into two sections. It was imagined that there was no substantial cooperation between Dutch and British, and that when they had said "Dutch" they had separated one section of the population into one camp, and when they had said "British," they had separated the other section into another camp equally distinct. When they said "British," moveover, they imagined they were suggesting something not merely racial but also political in spirit. There was nothing more fallacious and absurd than to imagine that state of things to exist. At the last by-election in Cape Colony the Dutch party was championed by an Englishman born in England, and who, being a Liberal in South Africa, was able to appeal to both Dutch and English upon political grounds and so got the English and Dutch vote as well, his opponent also getting both. If they had drawn a line across the electorate they would have found Dutch and English
    798
    on one side and Dutch and English on the other. That was why he was asking the Committee to give this Constitution with all its risks, believing that only by granting such a Constitution in a whole-hearted and generous way they could lay finally and decisively the foundation of British rule in South Africa. One word more. The right hon. Gentleman the late Secretary of State for the Colonies had stated that fusion had gone far and was going on well. It had. The right hon. Gentleman told them to wait until it had gone still further before giving a Constitution. If he (Mr. Macdonald) thought that fusion could go much further under existing conditions he would wait, but it could not. Fusion had gone so far because the offer of a Constitution had awakened in the minds of the Dutch leaders a genuine political interest, and the more they raised really political questions in the Transvaal the more would political fusion continue. But without a good old-fashioned British Constitution such as this brought in by this Liberal Government they could not rouse the genuine political interests which would eliminate racial instincts and ultimately give a united South African population living happily and contentedly under the Union Jack.
    MR. A. J. BALFOUR: I think that everybody who has listened to the interesting speech just delivered would take the view that if we could agree with the estimate the hon. Member for Leicester has formed of the results of the policy of the Government we should take the same sanguine view that he does. But the differences which separate the hon. Member and those above the gangway are not in the ideal we have formed of what the future of South Africa should be, but simply and solely in the methods by which that common aim is to be attained, that goal which we all want to be reached in the smallest space of time. But before I come to that question I must say some words upon another matter, which has been dwelt on by the Under-Secretary and with greater emphasis by the right hon. Member for the Forest of Dean. That right hon. Gentleman reminded us that

    799
    the real ultimate problem South Africa has got to face, whether it be a Dutch or British South Africa, or, as we all hope, a South Africa both British and Dutch in race, but British in sympathies— that problem is the native problem. Whatever may be the outcome of the present policy we are discussing, that which our children and grandchildren will have to deal with is the problem of how to manage a country in which the black population is, and is always going to remain, the vast majority of the population. No such problem has faced any Government up to the present time. There is a distant resemblance, but no accurate correspondence, between that problem and that which our cousins in the United States had to face in the Southern States, and have not so far faced successfully. There is no resemblance to the problem we have to deal with in the East Indies. One of my complaints against this settlement of the Government's is that I believe they make the solution of that problem more difficult even than it has been made by circumstances over which no Government has any control. They have chosen to adopt manhood suffrage as the bas s of their system. Now, when you take manhood suffrage you cannot avoid everybody taking the view that that is some theoretical justification for a franchise based upon rights. I do not know whether there are many gentlemen in this House who hold what I regard as the entirely antiquated view that the question of the rights of man, as it used to be called, conies into the question of franchise reform. But directly you adopt manhood suffrage you do indicate to the rash thinker, the ordinary man in the street, that there is some right connecting the possession of manhood with the possession of the suffrage.
    AN HON. MEMBER: Rates and taxes.
    MR. A. J. BALFOUR: It is not suffrage based on rates and taxes; it is manhood suffrage. If you are going to suggest that theory of natural rights, how are you going to deal with the question of the natives at all? We have to face facts; men are not born equal, the white and black races
    800
    are not born with equal capacities' they are born with different capacities which education cannot and will not change; and as far as I know there are no forces now in operation which can or will change them within a period of time. If that be true, and if it also be true, as I think it is, that we must allow the native races to have an influence and position in our legislative system, how are you going to reconcile that with a theory of manhood suffrage? I am reminded by my right hon. friend that they will he as eight to one, and if they were judiciously organised, in their hands alone would rest the whole interest of civilisation, culture, and religion—in the hands of a race which is by birth less intellectually and morally capable of dealing with these problems than a white race. I state it quite plainly and nakedly as I believe it to be. You cannot do that. Whether the system now in force in the Cape is the right system or not I do not say, but it is not manhood suffrage, and you could never associate the Transvaal with the Cape in any future scheme of federation unless either the Cape or the Transvaal changed its franchise. Well, that is a very serious thing. In my view the mere fact that the Government have chosen to make manhood suffrage the basis of their scheme not only brings them into conflict with the theory that if there were manhood suffrage there is no conceivable reason for excluding womanhood suffrage, a problem that seems to me insoluble, but it brings us face to face with the even greater and more difficult present problem of how you are going to associate North European conditions of liberty and self-government—how you are gong to associate the aborigines of South Africa with a race which has the same training which we have ourselves, whether they be drawn from Holland or this country. I believe it will be a real obstacle to the ultimate solution of what is the tremendous question with which South African statesmen in the future will inevitably have to deal. But I pass on to what is not, indeed, of greater importance, and not, indeed, of more permanent importance than the subject I have just touched upon, but which is, after all, the most pressing question we

    801
    have to deal with to-day. It is the jutification for the policy of the Government, not in giving full autonomy to the Transvaal, because we are all in favour of that and there has never been, as far as I know, any divergence of opinion on any side of House on that. As the Under-Secretary well knows, that was the declared policy of the late 'Government, as it is the declared policy of the present. But let there be no misunderstanding. If there is to be a difference of opinon between us, and I am afraid there is, that difference is to be found, not in the ultimate goal which we all desire to reach, but in the rapidity of our movements towards that goal. Now the hon. Member who has just sat down said, truly enough, that what we wanted to do was to unite British and Dutchmen, that there were questions outside the question of race, outside the question of the flag, which may well occupy the minds of politicians, and ought to occupy their minds. I agree also in admitting at once that there are an enormous number of persons of Dutch descent in the Cape Colony who are quite ready to work with the British on these lines. That is a healthy condition of things. It has not gone so far even in Cape Colony as I could wish, but it has gone far. Have we a right to assume that this process, which is still an incomplete process in Cape Colony, which has enjoyed self-government for I do not know how many decades, which has never been at war with us, which has been in an independent position since it was subject to the arbitrary rule of the Dutch commercial colonies—are we to suppose that this process has been carried out in the Transvaal with which we have been at war only three years ago? I think the Government are attempting an experiment of the most dangerous description. "Why should I like to see the experiment deferred? Is it because I distrust the Dutch? Is it because I think of them as having different aims from myself? Not at all. It is because I think they are of the same clay and are animated by the same motives. If we want to judge what the attitude of the Transvaal is to be, let us put ourselves in imagination into the position in which the great Dutch population are. Their memories are memories of war. They
    802
    are memories of an independence which preceded the war. The statesmen whose names have b en mentioned—Mr. Smuts, General Botha, and others—are men who took a distinguished part in the war. Are we to expect that in three years they are to say: "All that is over; the question has been settled; the arbitrament of arms has given its decision; we accept it; we are not going to struggle with the old ideal; we are going to make the best f the new circumstances?"they are human. How can you ask them to make that change of sentiment in the few months that have elapsed since the overwhelming forces at our disposal obliged them to surrender? You cannot ask it. The question you have to ask is —Human nature, be it Dutch or English, being what it is, can the political institutions you are now going to give them be ma e a substitute for the military organisation, cannon, and all the rest of it, which brought them honourably into the field only three years ago? [" Four years."]Well, four years; we all know the war began in 1899 and when it ended. Is not that the question we have to ask our selves? No human being ever thought of such an experiment before—that of giving to a population equal to, and far more homogeneous than, our own, absolute control of everything civil and military. There is nothing to prevent the country making every preparation, constitutionally, quietly, without external interference, for a new war. What is it that animates them? It cannot be yet what it would be if you would only wait—it cannot yet be that natural inborn loyalty to the British Throne and the British people; it cannot yet be a distinct and deliberate preference for the new over the old state of things. How can it be that? I believe it will come in time. But you are asking the Dutch to do what you would not do if you were in their place. That is a great deal to ask. I am astonished that any Government or any Party that cherished the British connection in the Transvaal should desire so audacious an experiment to be tried. What is the real reason for it? We know that it is done solely because the Government are desirous of getting rid of all their labour embarrassments and economic difficulties that their rash promises at the general election have brought upon them.

    803
    And the Transvaal itself is not less desirous of getting rid of Downing Street than Downing Street is of getting rid or the Transvaal [Cheers.] I do not know whether those cheers are ironical or not. [" No, no."] I do not know which preposition is disputed by the Prime Minister. Doss he dispute that Downing Street is anxious to get rid of the Transvaal? I think the Government have said so. [" Oh, oh."] I think they have gone that length. He will not dispute that the Transvaal is anxious to get rid of Downing Street. I think that is obvious on the face of every document that his issued by the population of British origin. Now I ask if we have the smallest right to take the optimistic view of the hon. Member for Reading, who made a very interesting speech from what I believe is called the Liberal Imperialist point of view, and in presenting that view he expressed himself as entirely satisfied with the scheme of the Government. He had feared much worse things, and if they had happened he said nothing would have prevented himself and his friends from separating themselves from the cause of the Government. I do not wish to throw any doubt upon that pronouncement of hypothetical political heroism, but what it is that has given such enormous satisfaction to the hon. Member I am utterly unable to see. What ground is there in the nature of things for making this experiment months or years before I think it ought to be made? [" Oh, oh," and interruptions.] I think it should depend upon how rapidly the wounds inflicted by the war are healed. But these considerations have not influenced the Government. They have not asked how ready is the Dutch population to co-operate with the British in internal administration. This consideration has not influenced them. Then what does the hon. Member see in the plan for autonomous Government? Does he see that the present lines of Party cleavage in the Transvaal will follow I the strict lines of nationality, and is that not likely to be the cause of the greatest of all possible disasters? What security
    does he see that this absolute power given to the Transvaal will not be used to establish a condition of things which may make some future action against this country possible, probable, and dangerous? I see no such security, and because I see no security against this danger, I refuse to accept the invitation so kindly offered to us by the Under-Secretary for the Colonies that we on this side should make ourselves responsible with the Government for what I regard as the most reckless experiment ever tried in the development of a great colonial policy. [" Oh, oh."] For this reason I look with alarm and distrust to the I future, and only from a wisdom we can hardly hope or expect from the population in the Transvaal can the danger be avoided. For these reasons I shall certainly give my vote against the-Resolution about to be put from the Chair.
    SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN,rising just before 10 o'clock, said: In the one minute left to me I will only say one thing, that never in the course of my Parliamentary career have I listened to a more unworthy, provocative, and mischievous—
    And, it being Ten of the Clock, the CHAIRMAN proceeded, in pursuance of Standing Order No. 15, to put forthwith the Question necessary to dispose of the Vote under consideration.
    Question put, "That a sum, not exceeding £29,050, be granted, to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1907, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Department of His Majesty's Secretary of State for the Colonies including a Grant-in-Ad of certain Expenses connected, with Emigration."
    The Committee divided:—Ayes, 316; Noes, 83. (Division List No. 286.)

    AYES.

    Abraham, William (Cork, N.E.)

    Agnew, George William

    Armitage, R.

    Acland, Francis Dyke

    Alden, Percy

    Asquith, Rt.Hn.Herbert Hentry

    Adkins, W. Ryland D.

    Allen, Charles P. (Stroud)

    Astbury, John Meir

    Atherley-Jones, L.

    Duckworth, James

    Laidlaw, Robert

    Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth)

    Dunn, A. Edward (Camborne)

    Lamb, Edmund G. (Leominster)

    Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight)

    Dunne, Major E. Martin (Walsall

    Lamb, Ernest H. (Rochester)

    Barlow, Percy (Bedford)

    Edwards, Clement (Denbigh)

    Lambert, George

    Barnard, E. B.

    Edwards, Enoch (Hanley)

    Layland-Barratt, Francis

    Barran, Rowland Hirst

    Edwards, Frank (Radnor)

    Leese, SirJosephF.(Accrington)

    Beale, W. P.

    Elibank, Master of

    Lehmann, R. C.

    Beaumont, W. C. B. (Hexham)

    Ellis, Rt. Hon. John Edward

    Lever, A.Levy(Essex, Harwich)

    Beck, A. Cecil

    Erskine, David C.

    Lever, W.H.(Cheshire, Wirral)

    Bell, Richard

    Essex, R. W.

    Levy, Maurice

    Bellairs, Carlyon

    Eve, Harry Trelawney

    Lewis, John Herbert

    Benn, SirJ.Williams(Devonp'rt

    Everett, R. Lacey

    Lloyd-George, Rt. Hon. David

    Benn, W.(T'wrHamlets, S.Geo.

    Fenwick, Charles

    Lough, Thomas

    Berridge, T. H. D.

    Ferens, T. R

    Lundon, W.

    Bertram, Julius

    Ffrench, Peter

    Lupton, Arnold

    Bethell, J.H. (Essex, Romford)

    Field, William

    Lyell, Charles Henry

    Bethell, T. R. (Essex, Maldon)

    Findlay, Alexander

    Lynch, H. B.

    Billson, Alfred

    Flavin, Michael Joseph

    Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester)

    Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine

    Flynn, James Christopher

    Macdonald, J.M. (Falkirk Bghs

    Black, Arthur W. (Bedfordshire

    Foster, Rt. Hon. Sir Walter

    Mackarness, Frederic C.

    Bolton, T.D.(Derbyshire, N.E.)

    Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

    MacVeagh, Jeremiah (Down, S.

    Bottomley, Horatio

    Freeman Thomas, Freeman

    MacVeigh, Charles(Donegal,E.

    Boulton, A. G. F. (Ramsey)

    Fuller, John Michael F.

    M'Arthur, William

    Brace, William

    Fullerton, Hugh

    M'Callum, John M.

    Bramsdon, T. A.

    Gardner, Col. Alan(Hereford,S.)

    M'Kenna, Reginald

    Brigg, John

    Gibb, James (Harrow)

    M'Killop, W.

    Brocklehurst, W. B.

    Gill, A. H.

    M'Laren, H. D. (Stafford, W.)

    Brooke, Stopford

    Ginnell, L.

    M'Micking, Major G.

    Brunner, J.F.L. (Lancs., Leigh)

    Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herbert John

    Mallet, Charles E.

    Brunner, Sir John T. (Cheshire)

    Glendinning, R. G.

    Mansfield, H. Rendall (Lincoln

    Bryce, Rt.Hn. James(Aberdeen

    Glover, Thomas

    Mark,G. Croydon (Launceston

    Bryce, J. A. (Inverness Burghs)

    Goddard, Daniel Ford

    Marnham, F. J.

    Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn

    Gooch, George Peabody

    Mason, A. E. W. (Coventry)

    Buckmaster, Stanley O.

    Greenwood, G. (Peterborough)

    Massie, J.

    Burke, E. Haviland-

    Greenwood, Hamar (York)

    Masterman, C. F. G.

    Burns, Rt. Hon. John

    Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill

    Meehan, Patrick A.

    Burnyeat, W. J. D.

    Gulland, John W.

    Menzies, Walter

    Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas

    Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

    Micklem, Nathaniel

    Buxton, Rt.Hn.Sydney Charles

    Hall, Frederick

    Molteno, Percy Alport

    Byles, William Pollard

    Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Lewis

    Mond, A.

    Cairns, Thomas

    Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale)

    Montagu, E. S.

    Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.

    Haslam, James (Derbyshire)

    Montgomery, H. G.

    Carr-Gomm, H. W.

    Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth)

    Morgan, G. Hay (Cornwall)

    Causton, Rt. Hn. Richard K.

    Haworth, Arthur A.

    Morley, Rt. Hon. John

    Cawley, Frederick

    Hazel, Dr. A. E.

    Morse, L. L.

    Channing, Francis Allston

    Hazleton, Richard

    Morton, Alpheus Cleophas

    Cheetham, John Frederick

    Healy, Timothy Michael

    Murphy, John

    Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R.

    Hedges, A. Paget

    Myer, Horatio

    Churchill, Winston Spencer

    Helme, Norval Watson

    Napier, T. B.

    Clough, W.

    Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

    Newnes, F. (Notts, Bassetlaw)

    Coats, Sir T.Glen (Renfrew,W.)

    Henderson, J.M.(Aberdeen,W.)

    Newnes, Sir George (Swansea)

    Cobbold, Felix Thornley

    Henry, Charles S.

    Nicholls, George

    Collins, Stephen (Lambeth)

    Higham, John Sharp

    Nicholson, Chas. N. (Doncas'tr

    Cooper, G. J.

    Hobart, Sir Robert

    Nolan, Joseph

    Corbett,C.H.(Sussex, E.Grinst'd

    Hobhouse, Charles E. H.

    Norman, Henry

    Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.

    Holden, E. Hopkinson

    Norton, Capt. Cecil William

    Cory, Clifford John

    Holland, Sir William Henry

    Nuttall, Harry

    Cotton, Sir H. J. S.

    Hooper, A. G.

    O'Brien, Kendal (Tipperary Mid

    Cowan, W. H.

    Hope, John Dears (Fife, West

    O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)

    Cox, Harold

    Hope, W.Bateman(Somerset,N

    O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)

    Cremer, William Randal

    Horniman, Emslie John

    O'Donnell, C. J. (Walworth)

    Crombie, John William

    Hudson, Walter

    O'Kelly, James(Roscommon,N

    Crooks, William

    Hyde, Clarendon

    O'Malley, William

    Crosfield, A. H.

    Isaacs, Rufus Daniel

    O'Mara, James

    Crossley, William J.

    Jacoby, James Alfred

    O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

    Dalziel, James Henry

    Jardine, Sir.J.

    Parker, James (Halifax)

    Davies, Ellis William (Eifion)

    Johnson, W. (Nuneaton)

    Partington, Oswald

    Davies, Timothy (Fulham)

    Jones, Leif (Appleby)

    Paul, Herbert

    Davies, W. Howell (Bristol,S.)

    Jones, William (Carnarvonshire

    Paulton, James Mellor

    Dewar, Arthur (Edinburgh, S.)

    Jowett, F. W.

    Pearce, Robert (Staffs. Leek)

    Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.

    Kearley, Hudson E.

    Pearce, William (Limehouse)

    Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

    Kekewich, Sir George

    Pearson, Sir W. D. (Colchester)

    Dobson, Thomas W.

    King, Alfred John (Knutsford)

    Philipps, Col. Ivor(S'thampton

    806

    807

    Philipps, Owen C. (Pembroke)

    Seely, Major J. B.

    Wallace, Robert

    Pickersgill, Edward Hare

    Shackleton, David James

    Walters, John Tudor

    Pirie, Duncan V.

    Shaw, Rt.Hn. T. (Hawick B.)

    Walton, Sir John L. (Leeds,S.

    Price, C. E. (Edinb'gh, Central)

    Sheehan, Daniel Daniel

    Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

    Radford, G. H.

    Shipman, Dr. John G.

    Ward, John(Stoke upon Trent

    Raphael, Herbert H.

    Silcock, Thomas Ball

    Ward,W.Dudley (S'thampton

    Rea, Russell (Gloucester)

    Simon, John Allsebrook

    Wason, JohnCathcart (Orkney)

    Rea, Walter Russell (Scarboro'

    Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie

    Waterlow, D. S.

    Redmond, John E.(Waterford)

    Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.)

    Watt, H. Anderson

    Rees, J. D.

    Soamos, Arthur Wellesley

    Wedgwood, Josiah C.

    Rendall, Athelstan

    Spicer, Sir Albert

    Weir, James Galloway

    Richards, Thos. (W. Monm'th.)

    Stanger, H. Y.

    White, George (Norfolk)

    Rickett, J. Compton

    Stanley, Hn. A. Lyulph (Chesh.)

    White, J. D. (Dumbartonshire)

    Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)

    Stewart, Halley (Greenock)

    Whitehead, Rowland

    Roberts, G. H. (Norwich)

    Stewart-Smith, D. (Kendal)

    Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

    Roberts, John H. (Denbighs)

    Strachey, Sir Edward

    Wiles, Thomas

    Robertson, Rt. Hn. E. (Dundee

    Straus, B. S. (Mile End)

    Wilkie, Alexander

    Robertson, Sir G.Scott(Bradfrd

    Strauss, E. A. (Abingdon)

    Williams, J. (Glamorgan)

    Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside)

    Stuart, James (Sunderland)

    Williamson, A.

    Robinson, S.

    Sullivan, Donal

    Wills, Arthur Walters

    Ro son, Sir William Snowdon

    Sutherland, J. E.

    Wilson, Henry J. (York, W.R.)

    Rogers, F, E. Newman

    Taylor, John W. (Durham)

    Wilson, J. H. (Middlesbrough

    Rose, Charles Day

    Tennant, H. J. (Berwickshire)

    Wilson, J. W. (Worcestersh. N.

    Rowlands, J.

    Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.

    Winfrey, R.

    Runciman, Walter

    Thompson, J. W.H.(Somerset,E)

    Woodhouse, Sir JT(Huddersf'd

    Russell, T. W.

    Tomkinson, James

    Yoxall, James Henry

    Rutherford, V. H. (Brentford)

    Toulmin, George

    Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)

    Ure, Alexander

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES—

    Scott,A.H.(Ashtonunder Lyne

    Verney, F. W.

    Mr. Whiteley and Mr

    Sears, J. E.

    Vivian, Henry

    J. A. Pease

    Seaverns, J. H.

    Walker, H. De R. (Leicester)

    NOES.

    Anson, Sir William Reynell

    Fletcher, J. S.

    Nicholson, Win.G.(Petersfield

    Arnold-Forster, Rt.Hn.HughO

    Forster, Henry William

    Nield, Herbert

    Balcarres, Lord

    Gardner, Ernest (Berks, East)

    O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens

    Balfour, Rt.Hn. A.J.(CityLond)

    Gibbs, G. A. (Bristol, West)

    Parker, Sir Gilbert (Gravseend

    Banbury, Sir Frederick George

    Gordon, J. (Londonderry, S.)

    Pease, Herbert Pike(Darlingt'n

    Barrie, H. T. (Londonderry, N.

    Hamilton, Marquess of

    Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

    Beach, Hn.Michael Hugh Hicks

    Harrison-Broadley, Col. H. B.

    Ratcliff, Major R. F.

    Beckett, Hon. Gervase

    Hay, Hon. Claude George

    Rawlinson, John Frederick P.

    Bridgeman, W. Clive

    Helmsley, Viscount

    Roberts, S.(Sheffield, Ecclesall

    Butcher, Samuel Henry

    Hervey, F. W. F. (BuryS. Edm'ds

    Rutherford,W. W. (Liverpool)

    Cave, George

    Hill, Sir Clement (Shrewsbury

    Salter, Arthur Clavell

    Cavendish, Rt.Hn. Victor C. W.

    Hill, Henry Staveley (Staff'sh.)

    Sandys, Lieut. -Col. Thos.Myles

    Ceciil, Evelyn (Anton Manor)

    Houston, Robert Paterson

    Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert

    Cecil, Lord John P. Joicey-

    Hunt, Rowland

    Sloan, Thomas Henry

    Cecil, Lord R. (Marylebone, E.)

    Kennaway, Rt.Hn.Sir John H.

    Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, E.

    Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

    Keswick, william

    Smith, V. E.(Liverpool,Walton

    Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow)

    Kimber, Sir Henry

    Starkey, John R.

    Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)

    Kincaid-Smith, Captain

    Stone, Sir Benjamin

    Craig, Chas. Curtis (Antrim, S.)

    Lambton, Hn. Frederick Wm.

    Thomson, W.Mitchell (Lanark)

    Craik, Sir Henry

    Lane-Fox, G. R.

    Thornton, Percy M.

    Dixon-Hartland, SirFredDixon

    Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Dublin,S

    Vincent, Col. Sir C. E. Howard

    Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

    Lonsdale, John Brownlee

    Walrond, Hon. Lionel

    Du Cros, Harvey

    Lowe, Sir Francis William

    Williams Col. R. (Dorset,W.

    Faber, George Denison (York)

    Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfied

    Wollf, Gustav Wilhelm

    Faber, Capt. W. V.(Hants,W.

    MacIver, David (Liverpool)

    Younger, George

    Fell, Arthur

    Marks, H. H. (Kent)

    Fether-tonhaugh, Godfrey

    Mason, James F. (Windsor)

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Sir

    Fiennes, Hon. Eustace

    Meysey-Thompson, E. C.

    Alexander Acland Hood

    Finch, Rt. Hon. George H.

    Morpeth, Viscount

    and Viscount Valentia.

    The CHAIRMAN then proceeded to put severally the Questions, That the total amounts of the Votes outstanding in each Class of the Civil Service Estimates, including Supplementary Estimates, and
    808
    the total amount of the Votes outstanding in the Estimates for the Army (including Ordnance Factories) be granted far the Services defined in those Classes and Estimates.

    CLASS I.
    2. "That a sum, not exceeding £707,580, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1907, for Expenditure on the Services included in Class I. of the Estimates for Civil Services, viz.:

    £

    5.

    Miscellaneous Legal Buildings, Great Britain

    34,800

    6.

    Art and Science Buildings, Great Britain

    45,800

    10.

    Surveys of the United Kingdom

    124,578

    11.

    Harbours under the Board of Trade

    14,606

    12.

    Peterhead Harbour

    22,000

    13.

    Rates on Government Property

    340,656

    14.

    Public Works and Buildings, Ireland

    96,477

    15.

    Railways, Ireland

    28,663

    £707,580

    Question put.
    The Committee divided:—Ayes, 324; Noes, 82. (Division List No. 287.)

    AYES.

    Abraham, William (Cork, N.E.)

    Cairns, Thomas

    Ferens, T. R.

    Acland, Francis Dyke

    Carr-Gomm, H. W.

    Ffrench, Peter

    Adkins, W. Ryland D.

    Causton, Rt. Hn. Richard Knight

    Field, William

    Agnew, George William

    Cawley, Frederick

    Fiennes, Hon. Eustace

    Alden, Percy

    Chance, Frederick William

    Findlay, Alexander

    Allen, A. Acland (Christchurch)

    Channing, Francis Allston

    Flavin, Michael Joseph

    Allen, Charles P. (Stroud)

    Cheetham, John Frederick

    Foster, Rt. Hon. Sir Walter

    Armitage, R.

    Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R.

    Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

    Asquith, Rt.Hon.Herber Henry

    Churchill, Winston Spencer

    Freeman-Thomas, Freeman

    Astbury, John Meir

    Clough, W

    Fuller, John Michael F.

    Atherley-Jones, L.

    Conts, Sir T.Glen(Renfrew, W.

    Fullerton, Hugh

    Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth)

    Cobbold, Felix Thornley

    Gibb, James (Harrow)

    Baker, Joseph A. (Finsbury, E.)

    Collins, Stephen (Lambeth)

    Gill, A. H.

    Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight)

    Collins,SirWm.J.(S.Pancras,W.

    Ginnell, L.

    Barlow, Percy (Bedford)

    Cooper, G. J.

    Gladstone, Rt.HnHerbert John

    Barnard, E. B.

    Corbett,C.H.(SussexE.Grinst'd

    Glover, Thomas

    Barran, Rowland Hirst

    Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.

    Goddard, Daniel Ford

    Beale, W. P.

    Cory, Clifford John

    Gooch, George Peabody

    Beaumont, W. C. B. (Hexham)

    Cotton, Sir H. J. S.

    Greenwood, G. (Peterborough)

    Beck, A. Cecil

    Cowan, W. H.

    Greenwood, Hamar (York)

    Bell, Richard

    Cox, Harold

    Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill

    Bellairs, Carlyon

    Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth)

    Gulland, John W.

    Benn,SirJ. Williams(Devonp'rt

    Cremer, William Randal

    Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

    Benn,W.(T'w'r Hamlets.S.Geo.

    Crombie, John William

    Hall, Frederick

    Berridge, T. D. H.

    Crooks, William

    Harcourt, Right Hon. Lewis

    Bertram, Julius

    Crosfield, A. H.

    Harmsworth, Cecil B. (Worc'r

    Bethell, J.H. (Essex, Romford)

    Crossley, William J.

    Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale)

    Bethell, T. R. (Essex, Maldon)

    Dalziel, James Henry

    Haslam, James (Derbyshire)

    Billson, Alfred

    Davies,David(Montgomery Co.

    Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth)

    Black,Arthur W.(Bedfordshire

    Davies, Ellis William (Eifion)

    Haworth, Arthur A.

    Bolton, T.D. (Derbyshire,N.E.

    Davies, Timothy (Fulham)

    Hazel, Dr. A. E.

    Bottomley, Horatio

    Davies, W. Howell (Bristol, S.)

    Hazleton, Richard

    Boulton, A. C. F. (Ramsey)

    Dewar, Arthur (Edinburgh, S.

    Healy, Timothy Michael

    Brace, William

    Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.

    Hedges, A. Paget

    Bramsdon, T. A.

    Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

    Helme, Norval Watson

    Brigg, John

    Dobson, Thomas W.

    Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

    Brocklehurst, W. B.

    Duckworth, James

    Henderson, J.M.(Aberdeen, W.

    Brooke, Stopford

    Dunn, A. Edward (Camborne)

    Henry, Charles S.

    Brunner, J. F.L. (Lancs., Leigh)

    Dunne, Major E. M. (Walsall)

    Higham, John Sharp

    Brunner, Sir.John T.(Cheshire)

    Edwards, Clement (Denbigh)

    Hobart, Sir Robert

    Bryce, Rt. Hn. James(Aberdeen

    Edwards, Enoch (Hanley)

    Hobhouse, Charles E. H.

    Bryce, J.A.(Inverness Burghs)

    Edwards, Frank (Radnor)

    Holden, E. Hopkinson

    Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn

    Elibank, Master of

    Holland, Sir William Henry

    Burke, E. Havland-

    Ellis, Rt. Hon. John Edward

    Hooper, A. G

    Burns, Rt. Hon. John

    Erskine, David C.

    Hope, John Deans (Fife, West

    Burnyeat, W.J. D.

    Essex, R. W.

    Hope, W.Bateman(SomersetN.

    Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas

    Eve, Harry Trelawney

    Horniman, Emslie John

    Buxton, Rt.Hn. Sydney Charles

    Everett, R. Lacey

    Hudson, Walter

    Byles, William Pollard

    Fenwick, Charles

    Hyde, Clarendon

    Isaacs, Rufus Daniel

    Myer, Horatio

    Shipman, Dr. John G.

    Jackson, R. S.

    Napier, T. B.

    Silcock, Thomas Ball

    Jacoby, James Alfred

    Newnes, F. (Notts, Bassetlaw)

    Simon, John Allsebrook

    Jardine, Sir J.

    Newnes, Sir George (Swansea)

    Sinclair, Rt. Hon. John

    Johnson, W. (Nuneaton)

    Nicholls, George

    Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie

    Jones, Leif (Appleby)

    Nicholson, CharlesN. (Doncaster

    Smyth, Thomas F.(Leitrim,S.)

    Jones, William (Carnarvonshire

    Nolan, Joseph

    Soames, Arthur Wellesley

    Jowett, F. W.

    Norman, Henry

    Spicer, Sir Albert

    Kearley, Hudson E.

    Norton, Capt. Cecil William

    Stanger, H. Y.

    Kekewich, Sir George

    Nuttall, Harry

    Stanley, Hn. A. Lyulph(Chesh.

    King, Alfred John (Knutsford)

    O'Brien, K. (Tipperary Mid.)

    Stewart, Halley (Greenock)

    Laidlaw, Robert

    O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)

    Stewart-Smith, D. (Kendal)

    Lamb, Edmund G. (Leominster

    O'Donnell, C. J. (Walworth)

    Strachey, Sir Edward

    Lamb, Ernest H. (Rochester)

    O'Kelly, James(Roscommon,N.

    Straus, B. S. (Mile End)

    Lambert, George

    O'Malley, William

    Strauss, E. A. (Abingdon)

    Lamont, Norman

    O'Mara, James

    Stuart, James (Sunderland)

    Layland-Barratt, Francis

    O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

    Sullivan, Donal

    Leese,Sir JosephF, (Accrington

    Parker, James (Halifax)

    Sutherland, J. E.

    Lehmann, R. C.

    Partington, Oswald

    Taylor, John W. (Durham)

    Lever,A.Levy(Essex, Harwich)

    Paul, Herbert

    Tennant, H. J. (Berwickshire)

    Lever, W. H. (Cheshire,Wirral)

    Paulton, James Mellor

    Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.

    Levy, Maurice

    Pearce, Robert (Staffs. Leek)

    Thompson J.W.H.(Somerset,E.

    Lewis, John Herbert

    Pearce, William (Limehouse)

    Tomkinson, James

    Lloyd-George, Rt. Hon. David

    Pearson, Sir W. D. (Colchester)

    Toulmin, George

    Lough, Thomas

    Philipps, Col. Ivor (S'thampton

    Ure, Alexander

    Lundon, W.

    Philipps, Owen C. (Pembroke)

    Verney, F. W.

    Lupton, Arnold

    Pickersgill, Edward Hare

    Vivian, Henry

    Lyell, Charles Henry

    Pirie, Duncan V.

    Walker, H. De R. (Leicester)

    Lynch, H. B.

    Price, C. E. (Edinb'gh, Central)

    Wallace, Robert

    Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester)

    Radford, G. H.

    Walsh, Stephen

    Macdonald, J.M.(FalkirkB'ghs

    Raphael, Herbert H.

    Walters, John Tudor

    Mackarness, Frederic C.

    Rea, Russell (Gloucester)

    Walton, Sir John L. (Leeds, S.)

    MacVeagh, Jeremiah (Down,S

    Rea, Walter Russell(Scarboro'

    Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

    MacVeigh, Chas. (Donegal, E.)

    Redmond, John E. (Waterford

    Ward, J. (Stoke upon Trent)

    M 'Arthur, William

    Rees, J. D.

    Ward W.Dudley (Southampt'n

    M'Callum, John M.

    Rendall, Athelstan

    Wason, John C. (Orkney)

    M'Kenna, Reginald

    Renton, Major Leslie

    Waterlow, D. S.

    M'Killop, W.

    Richards, Thomas(W.Monm'th

    Watt, H. Anderson

    M'Laren, H. D. (Stafford, W.)

    Rickett, J. Compton

    Wedgwood, Josiah C.

    M'Micking, Major G.

    Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)

    Weir, James Galloway

    Mallet, Charles E.

    Roberts, G. H. (Norwich)

    White, George (Norfolk)

    Mansfield, H. Rendall (Lincoln)

    Roberts, John H. (Denbig hs.

    White, J. D. (Dumbartonshire)

    Marks, G.Croydon(Launceston

    Robertson, Rt.Hn.K.(Dundee)

    Whitehead, Rowland

    Marnham, F. J.

    Robertson, Sir G.Scott(Bradf'rd

    Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

    Mason, A. E. W. (Coventry)

    Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside)

    Wiles, Thomas

    Massie, J.

    Robinson, S.

    Wilkie, Alexander

    Masterman, C. F. G.

    Robson, Sir William Snowdon

    Williams, J. (Glamorgan)

    Meehan, Patrick A.

    Rogers. F. E. Newman

    Williamson, A.

    Menzies, Walter

    Rose, Charles Day

    Wills, Arthur Walters

    Micklem, Nathaniel

    Rowlands, J.

    Wilson, Henry J. (York. W.R.)

    Molteno, Percy Alport

    Runciman, Walter

    Wilson, J. H.(Middlesbrough)

    Mond, A.

    Russell, T. W.

    Wilson, J. W.(Worcestersh.N.)

    Montagu, E. S.

    Rutherford, V. H. (Brentford)

    Winfrey, R.

    Montgomery, H. G.

    Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)

    Wood, T. M'Kinnon

    Morgan, G. Hay (Cornwall)

    Scott, A.H.(Ashton under Lyne

    Woodhouse. SirJT(Hudd'rsfi'd

    Morgan, J.Lloyd (Carmarthen

    Sears, J. E.

    Yoxall, James Henry

    Morley, Rt. Hon. John

    Seaverns, J. H.

    Morrell, Philip

    Seely, Major J. B.

    TELLEBS FOR THE AYES—

    Morse, L. L.

    Shackloton, David James

    Mr. Whiteley and Mr. J. A.

    Morton, Alpheus Cleophas

    Shaw Rt Hon T. (Hawick Burghs)

    Pease.

    Murphy, John

    Sheehan, Daniel Daniel

    NOES.

    Acland-Hood,RtHn.SirAlex F.

    Butcher, Samuel Henry

    Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)

    Anson, Sir William Reynell

    Carson, Rt.Hon.SirEdward H.

    Craig,CharlesCurtis(Antrim,S

    Arkwright, John Stanhope

    Cave, George

    Craik, Sir Henry

    Arnold-Forster,Rt. HnHughO.

    Cavendish,Rt.Hn.VietorC.W.

    Dixon-Hartland, Sir F. Dixon

    Balcarres, Lord

    Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

    Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

    Barrie, H. T. (Londonderry,N.

    Cecil, Lord John P. Joicey-

    Du Cros, Harvey

    Beach, Hn.Michael HughHicks

    Cecil, Lord R. (Marylebone,E.

    Faber, George Denison (York)

    Beckett, Hon. Gervase

    Cochrane,Hn. Thomas H.A.E.

    Faber, Capt, W. V. (Hants,W.

    Bridgeman, W. Clive

    Corbett, A. Cameron(Glasgow

    Fell, Arthur

    812

    813

    Fetherstonhaugh, Godfrey

    Lambton, Hon.Frederick Wm.

    Sandys, Lieut.-Col. Thos. Myles

    Finch, Rt. Hon. George H.

    Line-Fox, G. R.

    Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert

    Fletcher, J. S.

    Long, Col. Charles W.(Evesham

    Sloan, Thomas Henry

    Forster, Henry William

    Lowe, Sir Francis William

    Smith, Abel H.(Hertford, East)

    Gardner, Ernest (Berks, East)

    Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred

    Smith, F.E.(Liverpool, Walton)

    Gibbs, G. A. (Bristol, West)

    MacIver, David (Liverpool)

    Starkey, John R.

    Gordon, J. (Londonderry, S.)

    Marks, H. H. (Kent)

    Stone, Sir Benjamin

    Hamilton, Marquess of

    Mason, James F. (Windsor)

    Thomson, W.Mitchell-(Lanark

    Harrison-Broadley, Col. H. B.

    Meysey-Thompson, E. C.

    Thornton, Percy M.

    Hay, Hon. Claude George

    Morpeth, Viscount

    Valentia, Viscount

    Helmsley, Viscount

    Nicholson, Win G.(Petersfield

    Vincent, Col. Sir C. E.Howard

    Hervey, F.W.F.(BuryS.Edm'ds.

    Nield, Herbert

    Walrond, Hon. Lionel

    Hill, Sir Clement (Shrewsbury

    O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens

    Williams, Col. R. (Dorset,W.)

    Hill, Henry Staveley (Staff'sh.

    Parker, Sir Gilbert(Gravesend

    Wood, T. M'Kinnon

    Houston, Robert Paterson

    Pease Herbert Pike(Darlington

    Younger, George

    Hunt, Rowland

    Ratcliff, Major R. F.

    Kennaway, Rt. Hn. Sir John H.

    Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES—

    Keswick, William

    Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall

    Sir Frederick Banbury and

    Kimber, Sir Henry

    Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool)

    Mr. Lonsdale.

    Kincaid-Smith, Captain

    Salter, Arthur Clavell

    CLASS II.
    3. "That a sum, not exceeding £1,203,002, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the yew ending on the 31st day of March, 1907, for Expenditure in respect of the Services included in Class II. of the Estimates for Civil Services, viz.

    £

    1.

    House of Lords Offices

    10,210

    2.

    House of Commons Offices

    17,900

    3.

    Treasury and Subordinate Departments

    59,911

    4.

    Home Office

    124,085

    8.

    Board of Trade

    160,373

    9.

    Mercantile Marine Services

    69,873

    10.

    Bankruptcy Department of of the Board of Trade

    5

    12.

    Charity Commission

    16,079

    16.

    Local Government Board

    147,470

    17.

    Lunacy Commission, England

    10,736

    22.

    Registrar-General's Office, England

    25,412

    23.

    Stationery and Printing

    401,480

    24.

    Woods, Forests, and Land Revenues, etc., Office

    12,756

    25.

    Works and Public Buildings Office

    45,278

    26.

    Secret Service

    10,000

    Scotland.

    27.

    Secretary for Scotland's Office

    9,750

    28.

    Fishery Board

    13,691

    29.

    Lunacy Commission

    3,731

    30.

    Registrar-General's Office

    3,241

    31.

    Local Government Board for Scotland

    10,470

    Question put—
    The Committee divided:—Ayes, 342; Noes, 82. (Division List, No. 288.)

    AYES.

    Abraham, William (Cork.N.E.)

    Astbury, John Meir

    Beaumont, W. C. B. (Hexham)

    Acland, Francis Dyke

    Atherley-Jones, L,

    Beck, A. Cecil

    Adkins, W. Ryland D.

    Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth)

    Bell, Richard

    Agnew, George William

    Baker, Joseph A (Finsbury, E

    Bellairs, Carlvon

    Alden, Percy

    Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight)

    Benn, Sir J.Williams(Devonp'rt

    Allen, A. Acland (Christchurch)

    Barlow, Percy (Bedford)

    Benn,W.(T'w'r Hamlets, S.Geo.

    Allen, Charles P. (Stroud)

    Barnard, E. B.

    Berridge, T. H. D.

    Armitage, R.

    Barran, Rowland Hirst

    Bertram, Julius

    Asquith, Rt. Hn. Herbert H.

    Beale, W. P.

    Bethell, J.H.(Essex, Romford)

    Bethell, T. R. (Essex, Maldon

    Fenwick, Charles

    Lambert, George

    Billson, Alfred

    Ferens, T. R.

    Lamont, Norman

    Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine

    Ferguson, R. C. Munro

    Layland-Barratt, Francis

    Black, Arthur W.(Bedfordshire

    Ffrench, Peter

    Leese, Sir JosephF. (Accrington

    Bolton,T.B.(Derbyshire,N.E.)

    Field, William

    Lehmann, R. C.

    Bottomley, Horatio

    Fiennes, Hon. Eustace

    Lever, A. Levy(Essex, Harwich

    Boulton, A. C. P. (Ramsey)

    Findlay, Alexander

    Lever,W.H. (Cheshire, Wirral)

    Brace, William

    Flavin, Michael Joseph

    Levy, Maurice

    Bramsdon, T. A.

    Flynn, James Christopher

    Lewis, John Herbert

    Brigg, John

    Foster, Rt. Hon. Sir Walter

    Lloyd-George, Rt. Hon. David

    Brocklehurst, W. B.

    Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

    Lough, Thomas

    Brooke, Stopford

    Freeman-Thomas, Freeman

    Lundon, W.

    Brunner,J.F.L. (Lancs., Leigh)

    Fuller, John Michael P.

    Lupton, Arnold

    Brunner,Sir John T.(Cheshire

    Fullerton, Hugh

    Lyell, Charles Henry

    Bryce, Rt.Hn. James(Aberdeen

    Gardner, Col. Alan(Hereford,S.

    Lynch, H. B.

    Bryce,J. A. (Inverness Burghs)

    Gibb, James (Harrow)

    Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester)

    Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn

    Gill, A. H.

    Macdonald, J.M. (Falkirk Bgh's

    Burke, E. Haviland-

    Ginnell, L.

    Mackarness, Frederic, C.

    Burns, Rt. Hon. John

    Gladstone,Rt.Hn.HerbertJohn

    MacVeagh, Jeremiah (Down,S.

    Burnyeat, W. J. D.

    Glendinning, R G.

    MacVeigh, Chas. (Donegal, E.)

    Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas

    Glover, Thomas

    M'Arthur, William

    Buxton, Rt.Hn.Sydney Charles

    Goddard, Daniel Ford

    M'Callum, John M.

    Byles, William Pollard

    Gooch, George Peabody

    M'Kenna, Reginald

    Cairns, Thomas

    Greenwood, G. (Peterborough)

    M'Killop, W.

    Carr-Gomm, H. W.

    Greenwood, Hamar (York)

    M'Laren, H. D. (Stafford, W.)

    Causton, Rt.Hn.Richard Knight

    Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill

    M'Micking, Major G.

    Cawley, Frederick

    Gulland, John W

    Mallet, Charles E.

    Chance, Frederick William

    Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

    Mansfield,H. Rendall (Lincoln)

    Channing, Francis Allston

    Haldane, Rt. Hon. Richard B.

    Marks, G.Croydon(Launceston

    Cheetham, John Frederick

    Hall, Frederick

    Marnham, F. J.

    Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R.

    Harcourt, Right Hon. Lewis

    Mason, A. E. W. (Coventry)

    Churchill, Winston Spencer

    Harmsworth, Cecil B. (Worc'r)

    Massie, J.

    Clarke, C. Goddard

    Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale)

    Masterman, C. P. G.

    Cleland, J. W.

    Haslam, James (Derbyshire)

    Meehan, Patrick A.

    Clough, W.

    Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth)

    Menzies, Walter

    Coats, SirT.Glen (Renfrew, W.)

    Haworth, Arthur A.

    Micklem, Nathaniel

    Cobbold, Felix Thornley

    Hayden, John Patrick

    Molteno, Percy Alport

    Collins, Stephen (Lambeth)

    Hazel, Dr. A. E.

    Mond, A.

    Collins, SirWm.J.(S.Pancras,W.

    Hazleton, Richard

    Montagu, E. S.

    Cooper, G. J.

    Healy, Timothy Michael

    Montgomery, H. G.

    Corbett,C.H(Sussex,E.Grinst'd

    Hedges, A. Paget

    Morgan, G. Hay (Cornwall).

    Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.

    Helme, Norval Watson

    Morrell, Philip

    Cory, Clifford John

    Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

    Morse, L. L.

    Cotton, Sir H. J. S.

    Henderson,J.M.(Aberdeen, W.)

    Morton, Alpheus Cleophas

    Cowan, W. H.

    Henry, Charles S.

    Murphy, John

    Cox, Harold

    Higham, John Sharp

    Myer, Horatio

    Craig, Herbert J.(Tynemouth)

    Hobart, Sir Robert

    Napier, T. B.

    Cremer, William Randal

    Hobhouse, Charles E. H.

    Newnes, F.(Notts, Bassetlaw)

    Crombie, John William

    Holden, E. Hopkinson

    Newnes, Sir George (Swansea)

    Crooks, William

    Holland, Sir William Henry

    Nicholls, George

    Crosfield, A. H.

    Hooper, A. G.

    Nicholson, Chas. N.(Doncast'r).

    Crossley, William J.

    Hope, John Deans (Fife, West)

    Nolan, Joseph

    Cullinan, J.

    Hope, W. Bateman(Somerset,N

    Norman, Henry

    Dalziel, James Henry

    Horniman, Emslie John

    Norton, Capt. Cecil William

    Davies, Ellis William (Eifion)

    Hudson, Walter

    Nuttall, Harry

    Davies, Timothy (Fulham)

    Hyde, Clarendon

    O'Brien,Kendal (Tipperary Mid

    Davies, W. Howell (Bristol, S.)

    Illingworth, Percy H.

    O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)

    Dewar, Arthur (Edinburgh, S.)

    Isaacs, Rufus Daniel

    O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)

    Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.

    Jackson,R. S.

    O'Donnell, C. J. (Walworth)

    Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

    Jacoby, James Alfred

    O'Grady, J.

    Dobson, Thomas W.

    Jardine, Sir J.

    O'Kolly, James(Roscommon,N.

    Duckworth, James

    Johnson, W. Nuneaton)

    O'Malley, William

    Dunn, A. Edward (Camborne)

    Jones, Leif (Appleby)

    O'Mara, James

    Dunne Major E Martin(Walsall

    Jones, William (Carnarvonshire

    O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

    Edwards, Clement (Denbigh)

    Jowett, F. W.

    Parker, James (Halifax)

    Edwards, Enoch (Hanley)

    Joyce, Michael

    Partington, Oswald

    Edwards, Frank (Radnor)

    Kearley, Hudson E.

    Paul, Herbert

    Elibank, Master of

    Kekewich, Sir George

    Paulton, James Mellor

    Ellis, Rt. Hon. John Edward

    Kincaid-Smith, Captain

    Pearce, Robert (Staffs. Leek)

    Erskine, David C.

    King, Alfred John (Knutsford)

    Pearce, William (Limehouse)

    Essex, R. W.

    Laidlaw, Robert

    Pearson, Sir W. D. (Colchester)

    Eve, Harry Trelawney

    Lamb, Edmund G. (Leominster

    Philipps,Col. Ivor(S'thampton),

    Everett, R. Lacey

    Lamb, Ernest H. (Rochester)

    816

    817

    Philipps, Owen C. (Pembroke)

    Seaverns, J. H.

    Walker, H. De R. (Leicester)

    Pickersgill, Edward Hare

    Seely, Major J. B.

    Wallace, Robert

    Pirie, Duncan V.

    Shackleton, David James

    Walsh, Stephen

    Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central

    Shaw, Rt. Hn. T. (Hawick, B.

    Walters, John Tudor

    Priestley, Arthur (Grantham)

    Sheehan, Daniel Daniel

    Walton, Sir John L. (Leeds, S.)

    Radford, G. H.

    Sheehy, David

    Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

    Rainy, A. Holland

    Shipman, Dr. John G.

    Ward, John (Stoke upon Trent

    Raphael, Herbert H.

    Silcock, Thomas Ball

    Ward, W. Dudley (Southampt'n

    Rea, Russell (Gloucester)

    Simon, John Allsebrook

    Wason, JohnCathcart (Orkney)

    Rea, Walter Russell (Scarboro'

    Sinclair, Rt. Hon. John

    Waterlow, D. S.

    Redmond, John E. (Waterford

    Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie

    Watt, H. Anderson

    Rees, J. D.

    Smyth, Thomas F.(Leitrim,S.)

    Wedgwood, Josiah C.

    Rendall, Athelstan

    Soames, Arthur Wellesley

    Weir, James Galloway

    Renton, Major Leslie

    Spicer, Sir Albert

    White, George (Norfolk)

    Richards, Thomas (W. Monm'th

    Stanger, H. Y.

    White, J. D. (Dumbartonshire

    Rickett, J. Compton

    Stanley, Hn. A. Lyulph (Chesh.

    Whitehead, Rowland

    Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)

    Stewart, Halley (Greenock)

    Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

    Roberts, G. H. (Norwich)

    Stewart-Smith, D. (Kendal,

    Wiles, Thomas

    Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)

    Strachey, Sir Edward

    Wilkie, Alexander

    Robertson, Rt. Hn. E.(Dundee)

    Straus, B. S. (Mile End)

    Williams, J. (Glamorgan)

    Robertson, SirG.Scott(Bradf'rd

    Strauss, E. A. (Abingdon

    Williamson, A.

    Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside)

    Stuart, James (Sunderland)

    Wills, Arthur Walters

    Robinson, S.

    Sullivan, Donal

    Wilson, Henry J.(York, W.R.)

    Robson, Sir William Snowdon

    Sutherland, J. E.

    Wilson, J. H. (Middlesbrough)

    Rogers, F. E. Newman

    Taylor, John W. (Durham)

    Wilson,J. W.(Worcestersh. N.)

    Rose, Charles Day

    Tennant, Sir Edward(Salisbury

    Winfrey, R.

    Rowlands, J.

    Tennant, H. J. (Berwickshire)

    Wood, T. M'Kinnon

    Runciman, Walter

    Thomas, SirA. (Glamorgan, E.)

    Woodhouse,SirJT.(Huddersfi'd,

    Russell, T. W.

    Thompson, J.W.H.(Somerset,E

    Yoxall, James Henry

    Rutherford, V. H. (Brentford)

    Tomkinson, James

    Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)

    Toulmin, George

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr.

    Schwann, Sir C. E. (Manchester)

    Ure, Alexander

    Whiteley and Mr. J. A.

    Scott, A.H. (Ashton-und.-Lyne

    Verney, F. W.

    Pease.

    Soars, J. E.

    Vivian, Henry

    NOES.

    Acland-Hood,RtHn.Sir AlexF.

    Fletcher, J. S.

    O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens

    Anson, Sir William Reynell

    Forster Henry William

    Parker, Sir Gilbert (Gravesend)

    Arkwright, John Stanhope

    Gardner, Ernest (Berks, East)

    Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington

    Arnold-Forster, Rt. Hn. HughO.

    Gibbs, G. A. (Bristol, West)

    Ratcliff, Major R. F.

    Balcarres, Lord

    Gordon, J.(Londonderry, South

    Rawlinson, John Frederick P.

    Balfour,Rt.Hn.A.J.(CityLond.)

    Hamilton, Marquess of

    Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall

    Banbury, Sir Frederick George

    Harrison-Broadley, Col. H. B.

    Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool)

    Barrie, H.T. (Londonderry,N.)

    Helmsley, Viscount

    Salter, Arthur Clavell

    Beach, Hn. Michael Hugh Hicks

    Hervey,F. W. F. (BuryS.Edm' ds

    Sandys,Lient.-Col. Thos Myles

    Beckett, Hon. Gervase

    Hill, Sir Clement (Shrewsbury)

    Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert

    Bridgeman, W. Clive

    Hill, Henry Staveley (Staff'sh.)

    Sloan, Thomas Henry

    Butcher, Samuel Henry

    Houston, Robert Paterson

    Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East'

    Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

    Hunt, Rowland

    Smith,F. E.(Liverpool, Walton)

    Cave, George

    Kennaway, Rt. Hn. Sir John H.

    Starkey, John R.

    Cavendish,Rt. Hon. Victor C.W.

    Keswick, William

    Stone, Sir Benjamin

    Cecil, Evelyn ('Aston Manor)

    Kimber. Sir Henry

    Thomson, W. Mitchell-(Lanark)

    Cecil, Lord John P. Joicey-

    Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm.

    Thornton, Percy M.

    Cecil, Lord R. (Marylebone, E.)

    Lane-Fox, G. R.

    Valentia, Viscount

    Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

    Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Dublin,S

    Vincent, Col. Sir C. E. Howard

    Corbett, A. Cameron(Glasgow)

    Lonsdale, John Brownlee

    Walrond, Hon. Lionel

    Corbett, T. L. (Down. North)

    Lowe, Sir Francis William

    Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.)

    Craig, Charles Curtis (Antrim, S.

    Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred

    Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm

    Craik, Sir Henry

    Maclver, David (Liverpool)

    Wortley, Rt. Hn. C. B. Stuart-

    Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

    Marks, H. H. (Kent)

    Younger, George

    Du Cros, Harvey

    Mason, James F. (Windsor)

    Faber, George Denison (York)

    Meysey-Thompson, E.C.

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES—

    Faber, Capt. W. V. (Hants,W.

    Morpeth, Viscount

    Mr. Claude Hay and Mr.

    Fetherstonhangh, Godfrey

    Nicholson, Win. G. (Petersfield)

    Fell.

    Finch, Rt. Hon. George H.

    Nield, Herbert

    CLASS III.
    4. "That a sum, not exceeding £2,077,936, be granted to His Majesty
    818
    to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1907, for Ex-

    819
    penditure in respect of the Services included in Class III. of the Estimates for Civil Services, viz.:—

    £

    1.

    Law Charges

    31,954

    2.

    Miscellaneous Legal Expenses

    21,914

    3.

    Supreme Court of Judicature

    179,066

    4.

    Land Registry

    25,602

    5.

    County Courts

    2

    7.

    Prisons, England and the Colonies

    394,255

    8.

    Reformatory and Industrial Schools, Great Britain

    113,977

    9.

    Broadmoor Criminal Lunatic Asylum

    27,121

    Scotland.

    10.

    Law Charges and Courts of Law

    50,828

    11.

    Register House, Edinburgh

    27,745

    12

    Crofters' Commission

    2,445

    13.

    Prisons

    52,600

    Ireland.

    14.

    Law Charges and Criminal Prosecutions

    32,652

    15.

    Supreme Court of Judicature and other Legal Departments

    59,586

    16.

    Irish Land Commission

    124,215

    17.

    County Court Officers, &c.

    66,088

    18.

    Dublin Metropolitan Police

    35,721

    19.

    Royal Irish Constabulary

    710,038

    20.

    Prisons

    62,556

    21.

    Reformatory and Industrial Schools

    55,995

    22.

    Dundrum Criminal Lunatic Asylum

    3,576

    £2,077,936 "

    Question put—
    The Committee divided: —Ayes, 339; Noes, 81. (Division List, No. 289.)

    AYES.

    Abraham, William (Cork, N.E.)

    Brunner, J. F. L. (Lanes, Leigh

    Cullinan, J.

    Acland, Francis Dyke

    Brunner, Sir John T. (Cheshire)

    Dalziel, James Henry

    Adkins, W. Ryland D.

    Bryce, Rt.Hn.James(Aberdeen

    Davies, Ellis William (Eifion)

    Agnew, George William

    Bryce, J.A. (Inverness Burghs)

    Davies, Timothy (Fulham)

    Alden, Percy

    Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn

    Davies, W. Howell (Bristol, S.

    Allen, A. Acland(Christchurch)

    Burke, E. Haviland-

    Dewar, Arthur (Edinburgh S.)

    Allen, Charles P. (Stroud)

    Burns, Rt. Hon. John

    Dickinson, W.H. (St. Pancras, N

    Armitage, R.

    Burnyeat, W. J. D.

    Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.

    Asquith, Rt.Hn. Herbert Henry

    Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas

    Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

    Astbury, John Meir

    Buxton, Rt. Hn. Sydney Chas.

    Dobson, Thomas W.

    Atherley-Jones, L.

    Byles, William Pollard

    Duckworth, James

    Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth)

    Cairns, Thomas

    Dunn, A. Edward (Camborne)

    Baker,Joseph A.(Finsbury,E.)

    Carr-Gomm, H. W.

    Dunne, MajorE. Martin(Walsall

    Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight)

    Causton, Rt.Hn.Richard Knight

    Edwards, Clement (Denbigh)

    Barlow, Percy (Bedford)

    Cawley, Frederick

    Edwards, Enoch (Hanley)

    Barnard, E. B.

    Chance, Frederick William

    Edwards, Frank (Radnor)

    Barran, Rowland Hirst

    Channing, Francis Allston

    Ellis, Rt. Hon. John Edward

    Beale, W. P.

    Cheetham, John Frederick

    Erskine, David C.

    Beaumont, W. C. B. (Hexham)

    Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R.

    Essex, R. W.

    Beck, A. Cecil

    Clarke, C. Goddard

    Eve, Harry Trelawney

    Bell, Richard

    Cleland, J. W.

    Everett, R. Lacey

    Bellairs, Carlyon

    Clough, W.

    Fenwick, Charles

    Benn, SirJ. Williams(Devonprt

    Coats,SirT.Glen(Renfrew, W.)

    Ferens, T. R.

    Benn, W.(T'w'rHamlets,S.Geo.

    Cobbold, Felix Thornley

    Ferguson, R. C. Munro

    Berridge, T. H. D.

    Collins, Stephen (Lambeth)

    Ffrench, Peter

    Bertram, Julius

    Collius, SirWm.J.(S. Pancras, W

    Field, William

    Bethell,J.H.(-Essex, Romford)

    Cooper, G. J.

    Fiennes, Hon. Eustace

    Bethell, T. R. (Essex, Maldon)

    Corbett, C.H.(SussexE.Grinst'd

    Findlay, Alexander

    Bignold, Sir Arthur

    Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.

    Flynn, James Christopher

    Billson, Alfred

    Cory, Clifford John

    Foster, Rt. Hon. Sir Walter

    Black, Arthur W.(Bedfordshire)

    Cotton, Sir H. J. S.

    Freeman-Thomas, Freeman

    Bolton, T. D. (Derbyshire, N.E.

    Cowan, W. H.

    Fuller, John Michael F.

    Bottomley, Horatio

    Cox, Harold

    Fullerton, Hugh

    Boulton, A. C. F. (Ramsey)

    Craig, Herb. J. (Tynemouth)

    Gibb, James (Harrow)

    Brace, William

    Cremer, William Randal

    Gill, A. H.

    Bramsdon, T. A.

    Crombie, John William

    Ginnell, L.

    Brigg, John

    Crooks, William

    Gladstone, Rt. Hn. HerbertJohn

    Brocklehurst, W. B.

    Crosfield, A. H.

    Glendinning, R. G.

    Brooke, Stopford

    Crossley, William J.

    Glover, Thomas

    Goddard, Daniel Ford

    MacVeigh, Charles(Donegal,E.

    Robertson, Rt. Hn. E.(Dundee)

    Gooch, George Peabody

    M'Arthur, William

    Robertson,Sir G.Scott(Bradf'rd

    Greenwood, G. (Peterborough)

    M'Callum, John M.

    Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside)

    Greenwood, Hamar (York)

    M'Kenna, Reginald

    Robinson, S.

    Griffith, Ellis J.

    M'Killop, W.

    Robson, Sir William Snowdon

    Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill

    M'Laren, H. D. (Stafford, W.)

    Rogers, F. E. Newman

    Gulland, John W.

    M'Micking, Major G.

    Rose, Charles Day

    Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

    Mallet, Charles E.

    Rowlands, J.

    Haldane, Rt. Hon. Richard B.

    Mansfield, H. Rendall (Lincoln)

    Runciman, Walter

    Hull, Frederick

    Marks, G. Crovdon(Launceston

    Russell, T. W.

    Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Lewis

    Marnham, F. J.

    Rutherford, V. H. (Brentford)

    Harmsworth, Cecil B.(Wore'r)

    Mason, A. E. W. (Coventry)

    Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)

    Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale)

    Massie, J.

    Schwann, Sir C. E. (Manchester

    Haslam, James (Derbyshire)

    Masterman, C. F. G.

    Scott, A.H. (Ashton-und.-Lyne

    Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth)

    Meehan, Patrick A.

    Sears, J. E.

    Haworth, Arthur A.

    Menzies, Walter

    Seaverns, J. H.

    Hayden, John Patrick

    Micklem, Nathaniel

    Seely, Major J. B.

    Hazel, Dr. A. E.

    Molteno, Percy Alport

    Shackleton, David James

    Hazleton, Richard

    Mond, A.

    Shaw, Rt. Hn. T. (Hawick B.)

    Healy, Timothy Michael

    Montagu, E. S.

    Sheehan, Daniel Daniel

    Hodges, A. Paget

    Montgomery, H. G.

    Sheehy, David

    Helme, Norval Watson

    Morgan, G. Hay (Cornwall)

    Shipman, Dr. John G.

    Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

    Morgan, J. Lloyd(Carmarthen

    Silcock Thomas Ball

    Henderson, J.M. (Aberdeen, W.

    Morrell, Philip

    Simon, John Allsebrook

    Henry, Charles S.

    Morse L. L.

    Sinclair, Rt. Hon. John

    Higham, John Sharp

    Morton, Alpheus Cleophas

    Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie

    Hobart, Sir Robert

    Murphy, John

    Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.)

    Hobhouse, Charles E. H.

    Myer, Horatio

    Soames, Arthur Wellesley

    Holden, E. Hopkinson

    Nicholls, George

    Spicer, Sir Albert

    Holland, Sir William Henry

    Napier, T. B.

    Stanger, H. Y.

    Hooper, A. G.

    Newnes, F. (Notts, Bassetlaw)

    Stanley, Hn.A.Lyulph (Chesh.)

    Hope, John Deans (Fife, West)

    Newnes, Sir George (Swansea)

    Stewart, Halley (Greenock)

    Hope, W. Bateman(Somerset, N)

    Nicholson, Chas. N. (Doncast'r

    Stewart-Smith, D. (Kendal)

    Horniman, Emslie John

    Nolan, Joseph

    Strachey. Sir Edward

    Hudson, Walter

    Norman, Henry

    Straus, B. S. (Mile End)

    Hyde, Clarendon

    Norton, Capt. Cecil William

    Strauss, E. A. (Abingdon)

    Illingworth, Percy H.

    Nuttall, Harry

    Stuart, James (Sunderland)

    Isaacs, Rufus Daniel

    O'Brien, Kendal (Tipperary Mid

    Sullivan, Donal

    Jackson, R. S.

    O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)

    Sutherland, J. E.

    Jacoby, James Alfred

    O'Connor. T. P. (Liverpool)

    Taylor, John W. (Durham)

    Jardine, Sir J.

    O'Donnell, C. J. (Walworth)

    Tennant, Sir Edward(Salisbury)

    Johnson, W. (Nuneaton)

    O'Grady, J.

    Tennant, H. J. (Berwickshire)

    Jones, Leif (Appleby)

    O'Kelly,James(Roscommon,N.

    Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, F.

    Jones. Win. (Carnarvonshire)

    O'Malley, William

    Thompson, J.W.H. (Somerset,E

    Jowett, F. W.

    O'Mara, James

    Tomkinson, James

    Joyce, Michael

    O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

    Toulmin, George

    Kearley, Hudson E.

    Parker, James (Halifax)

    Ure, Alexander

    Kekewich, Sir George

    Partington, Oswald

    Verney, F. W.

    Kincaid-Smith, Captain

    Paul, Herbert

    Vivian, Henry

    King, Alfred John (Knutsford)

    Pearce, Robert (Staffs. Leek)

    Walker, H. De R. (Leicester

    Laidlaw, Robert

    Pearce, William (Limehouse)

    Wallace, Robert

    Lamb, EdmundG.(Leominster)

    Pearson, Sir W. D. (Colchester)

    Walsh, Stephen

    Lamb, Ernest H. (Rochester)

    Philipps, Col. Ivor(S'thampton

    Walters, John Tudor

    Lambert, George

    Philipps, Owen C. (Pembroke)

    Walton, Sir John L. (Leeds, S.)

    Lamont, Norman

    Pickersgill, Edward Hare

    Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

    Luyland-Barratt, Francis

    Pirie, Duncan V.

    Ward, John(Stoke-upon-Trent.

    Leese, SirJosephF.(Accrington)

    Price, C.E.(Edinburgh, Central)

    Ward, W. Dudley(Southampt'n

    Lehmann, R. C.

    Priestley, Arthur (Grantham)

    Wason, John Cathcart(Orkney)

    Lever, A. Levy(Essex, Harwich)

    Radford, G. H.

    Waterlow, D. S.

    Lever, W. H. (Cheshire, Wirral)

    Rainy, A. Holland

    Watt, H. Anderson

    Levy, Maurice

    Raphael, Herbert H.

    Wedgwood, Josiah C.

    Lewis, John Herbert

    Rea, Russell (Gloucester)

    Weir, James Galloway

    Lloyd-George, Rt. Hon. David

    Rea, Walter Russell(Scarboro')

    White, George (Norfolk)

    Lough, Thomas

    Redmond, John E. Waterford)

    White, J. D. (Dumbartonshire)

    Lundon, W.

    Roes. J. D.

    Whitehead, Rowland

    Lupton, Arnold

    Rendall, Athelstan

    Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

    Lyell, Charles Henry

    Renton, Major Leslie

    Wiles, Thomas

    Lynch, H. B.

    Richards, Thomas(W.Monm'th

    Wilkie, Alexander

    Macdonald,J.M.(Falkirk B'ghs

    Rickett, J. Compton

    Williams, J. (Glamorgan)

    Mackarness, Frederic C.

    Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)

    Williamson, A.

    Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.

    Roberts, G. H. (Norwich)

    Wills, Arthur Walters

    MacVeagh, Jeremiah (Down,S.)

    Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)

    Wilson, Henry J. (York; W.R)

    822

    823

    Wilson,.J. H. (Middlesbrough

    Wood, T. M'Kinnon

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES—

    Wilson, J. W.(Worcestersh. N.

    Woodhouse,SirJ.T(Hudd'rsfd

    Mr. Whiteley and Mr. J.

    Winfrey, R.

    Yoxall, James Henry

    A. Pease.

    NOES.

    Acland-Hood.Rt Hn. SirAlexF.

    Fletcher, J. S.

    Parker, Sir Gilbert (Gravesend)

    Anson, Sir William Reynell

    Forster, Henry William

    Pease, Herbert Pike(Darlington

    Arkwright, John Stanhope

    Gardner, Ernest, (Berks, East)

    Ratcliff, Major R. F.

    Arnold-Forster, Rt. Hn HughO.

    Gibbs, G. A. (Bristol, West)

    Rawlinson, John Frederick P.

    Balcarres, Lord

    Gordon, J. (Londonderry, S.)

    Roberts,S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall)

    Barrie. H.T. (Londonderry N.)

    Hamilton. Marquess of

    Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool)

    Beach, Hn. Michael Hugh Hicks

    Harrison-Broadley, Col. H. B.

    Salter, Arthur Clavell

    Beckett, Hon. Gervae

    Hay, Hon. Claude George

    Sandys, Lieut.-Col. Thos. Myles

    Bridgeman, W. Clive

    Helmsley, Viscount

    Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert

    Butcher, Samuel Henry

    Hervey, F. W.F.(BuryS.Edm'ds

    Sloan, Thomas Henry

    Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

    Hill, Sir Clement (Shrewsbury)

    Smith, Abel H.(Hertford, East)

    Cave, George

    Hill,Henry Staveley(Staff'sh.)

    Smith, F. E. (Liverpool, Walton

    Cavendish, Rt. Hn. Victor C.W.

    Houston, Robert Paterson

    Starkey, John R.

    Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

    Hunt, Rowland

    Stone, Sir Benjamin

    Cecil, Lord John P. Joicey-

    Kennaway, Rt. Hn. Sir John H.

    Thomson, W. Mitchell-(Lanark

    Cecil, Lord R. (Marylebone, E.)

    Keswick, William

    Thornton, Percy M.

    Cochrane, Hn. Thos. H. A. E.

    Kimber, Sir Henry

    Valentia, Viscount

    Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow)

    Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm.

    Vincent, Col. Sir C. E. Howard

    Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)

    Lane-Fox, G. R.

    Walrond, Hon. Lionel

    Craig, Chas. Curtis (Antrim, S.)

    Lowe, Sir Francis William

    Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.)

    Craik, Sir Henry

    Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred

    Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm

    Doughty, Sir George

    Maclver, David (Liverpool)

    Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-

    Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

    Marks, H. H. (Kent)

    Younger, George

    Du Cros, Harvey

    Mason, James F. (Windsor)

    Faber, George Denison (York)

    Meysey-Thompson, E C.

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES—

    Faber, Capt. W. V. (Hants, W.)

    Morpeth, Viscount

    Sir Frederick Banbury and

    Fell, Arthur

    Nicholson, Win. G.(Peterfield

    Mr. Lonsdale.

    Fetherstonhaugh, Godfrey

    Nield, Herbert

    Finch, Rt. Hon. George H.

    O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens

    CLASS IV.
    5. "That a sum, not exceeding £8,387,882, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1907, for expenditure in respect of the services, included in Class IV. of the Estimates for Civil Services, viz.:—

    £

    1.

    Board of Education (including a Supplementary Sum of £200,000)

    6,339,600

    2.

    British Museum

    99,998

    3.

    National Gallery

    7,038

    4.

    National Portrait Gallery

    2,619

    5.

    Wallace Collection

    3,821

    6.

    Scientific Investigation, etc., United Kingdom

    33,650

    7.

    Universities and Colleges, Great Britain and Intermediate Education, Wales

    140,400

    8.

    Public Education, Scotland

    1,122,128

    9.

    National Gallery, etc., Scotland

    768

    Ireland.

    10.

    Public Education

    633,223

    11.

    Endowed Schools Commissioners

    510

    12.

    National Gallery

    1,766

    13.

    Queen's Colleges

    2,361

    £8,387,882 "

    Question put.
    The Committee divided:—Ayes, 341; Noes, 79. (Division List, No. 290.)

    AYES.

    Abraham, William, (Cork, N.E.

    Armitage, R.

    Barnard, E. B.

    Acland, Francis Dyke

    Astbury, John Meir

    Barran, Rowland Hirst

    Adkins, W. Ryland D.

    Atherley-Jones, L.

    Beale, W. P.

    Agnew, George William

    Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth)

    Beaumont, W. C. B. (Hexham)

    Alden, Percy

    Baker, Joseph A.(Finsbury, E.)

    Beck, A. Cecil

    Allen, A. Acland (Christchurch)

    Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight)

    Bell, Richard

    Allen, Charles P (Stroud)

    Barlow, Percy (Bedford)

    Bellairs, Carlyon

    Benn,Sir J. Williams (Dev'np'rt

    Elibank, Master of

    Laidlaw, Robert

    Benn, W.(T'w'rHamlet,S.Geo.

    Ellis, Kt. Hon. John Edward

    Lamb, Edmund G. (Leominster

    Berridge, T. H. D.

    Erskine, David C.

    Lamb, Ernest H. (Rochester)

    Bertram, Julius

    Essex, R. W.

    Lambert, George

    Bethell, J. H. (Essex, Romford

    Eve, Harry Trelawney

    Lamont, Norman

    Bethell, T. R. (Essex, Maldon)

    Everett, R. Lacey

    Layland-Barratt, Francis

    Billson, Alfred

    Fenwick, Charles

    Leese,Sir Joseph F.(Accrington

    Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine

    Ferens, T. R.

    Lehmann. R. C.

    Black, Arthur W.(Bedfordshire

    Ferguson, R. C. Mumo

    Lever, A. Levy (Essex,Harwich)

    Bolton, T. D.(Derbyshire,N.E.)

    Ffrench, Peter

    Lever, W. H.(Cheshire, Wirral)

    Bottomley, Horatio

    Field, William

    Levy, Maurice

    Boulton, A. C. F. (Ramsey)

    Fiennes, Hon. Eustace

    Lewis John Herbert

    Bruce, William

    Findlay, Alexander

    Lloyd-George, lit. Hon. David

    Bramsdon, T. A.

    Flynn, James Christopher

    Lough, Thomas

    Brigg, John

    Foster, Rt. Hon. Sir Waller

    Lundon, W.

    Brocklehurst, W. D

    Freeman-Thomas, Freeman

    Lupton, Arnold

    Brooke, Stopford

    Fuller, John Michael F.

    Lyell, Charles Henry

    Brunner, J. F. L.(Lanes., Leigh)

    Fullerton, Hugh

    Lynch, H. B.

    Brunner, Sir John T.(Cheshire)

    Gibb, James (Harrow)

    Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester)

    Bryce, Rt. Hn. Jas. (Aberdeen)

    Gill, A. H.

    Macdonald, J.M. (Falkirk B'ghs

    Bryce, J.A (Inverness Burghs)

    Ginnell, L.

    Mackarness, Frederic C

    Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn

    Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herbert J.

    Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.

    Burke, E. Haviland-

    Glendinning, R. G.

    MacVeagh, Jeremiah (Down,S.

    Burns, Rt. Hon. John

    Glover, Thomas

    MacVeigh,Charles(Donegal,E.

    Burnyeat, W. J. D.

    Goddard, Daniel Ford

    M'Arthur, William

    Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas

    Gooch, George Peabody

    M'Callum, John M.

    Buxton, Rt. Hn. Sydney Chas.

    Greenwood, G. (Peterborough)

    M'Kenna, Reginald

    Byles, William Pollard

    Greenwood, Hamar(York)

    M'Killop, W.

    Cairns, Thomas

    Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward

    M'Laren, H. D. (Stafford, W.)

    Carr-Gomm, H. W.

    Griffith, Ellis J.

    M'Micking, Major G.

    Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

    Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill

    Mallet, Charles E.

    Cawley, Frederick

    Gulland, John W.

    Mansfield, H. Rendall (Lincoln)

    Chance, Frederick William

    Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

    Marks, G. Croydon (Launceston

    Channing, Francis Allston

    Haldane, Rt. Hn. Richard B

    Marnham, F. J.

    Cheetham, John Frederick

    Hall, Frederick

    Mason, A. E. W. (Coventry)

    Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R.

    Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Lewis

    Massie, J.

    Churchill, Winston Spencer

    Harmsworth, Cecil B. (Wore'r)

    Masterman, C. F. G.

    Clarke, C. Goddard

    Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale)

    Meehan, Patrick A.

    Cleland, J. W.

    Haslam, James (Derbyshire)

    Menzies, Walter

    Clough, W.

    Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth)

    Micklem, Nathaniel

    Coats,SirT.Glen(Renfrew,W.)

    Haworth, Arthur A.

    Molteno, Percy Alport

    Cobbold, Felix Thornley

    Hayden, John Patrick

    Mond, A.

    Collins, Stephen (Lambeth)

    Hazel, Dr. A. E.

    Montagu, E. S.

    Collins, Sir W. J. (S. PancrasW.

    Hazleton, Richard

    Montgomery, H. G.

    Cooper, G. J.

    Healy, Timothy Michael

    Morgan, G. Hay (Cornwall)

    Corbett, CH.(Sussex,E. Grinst'd

    Hedges, A. Paget

    Morrell, Philip

    Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.

    Helme, Norval Watson

    Morse, L. L.

    Cory, Clifford John

    Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

    Morton, Alpheus Cleophas

    Cotton, Sir H. J. S.

    Henry, Charles S.

    Murphy, John

    Cowan, W. H.

    Higham, John Sharp

    Myer, Horatio

    Cox, Harold

    Hobart, Sir Robert

    Napier, T. B.

    Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth

    Hobhouse, Charles E. H.

    Newnes, F. (Notts, Bassetlaw)

    Cremer, William Randal

    Holden, E. Hopkinson.

    Newnes, Sir George (Swansea)

    Crombie, John William

    Holland, Sir William Henry

    Nicholls, George

    Crooks, William

    Hooper, A. G.

    Nicholson, CharlesN. (Doncast'r

    Crosfield, A. H.

    Hope, W. Bateman(Somerset,N

    Nolan, Joseph

    Crossley, William J.

    Horniman, Emslie John

    Norman, Henry

    Cullinan, J.

    Hudson, Walter

    Norton, Capt. Cecil William

    Dalziel, James Henry

    Hyde, Clarendon

    Nuttall, Harry

    Davies, Ellis William (Eifion)

    Illingworth, Percy H.

    O' Brien, Kendal (TipperaryMid

    Davies, Timothy (Fulham)

    Isaacs, Rufus Daniel

    O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)

    Davies, W. Howell (Bristol, S.)

    Jackson, R. S.

    O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)

    Dewar, Arthur (Edinburgh,S.)

    Jacoby, James Alfred

    O'Donnell, C. J. (Walworth)

    Dickinson, W. H. (StPancrasN.

    Jardine, Sir J.

    O'Grady. J.

    Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.

    Johnson, W. (Nuneaton)

    O'Kelly, James(Roscommon, N

    Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

    Jones, Leif (Appleby)

    O'Malley, William

    Dobson, Thomas W.

    Jones, Wm. (Carnarvonshire)

    O'Mara, James

    Duckworth, James

    Jowett, F. W.

    O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

    Dunn, A. Edward (Camborne)

    Joyce, Michael

    Parker, James (Halifax)

    Dunne, Maj E. Martin(Walsall

    Kearley, Hudson E.

    Paltington, Oswald

    Edwards, Clement (Denbigh)

    Kekewich, Sir George

    Paul, Herbert

    Edwards, Enoch (Hanley)

    Kincaid-Smith, Captain

    Paulton, James Mellor

    Edwards, Frank (Radnor)

    King, Alfred John (Knutsford)

    Pearce, Robert (Staffs. Leek)

    826

    827

    Pearce, William (Limehouse)

    Scott, A. H. (Ashton-under-Lyne

    Verney, F. W.

    Pearson, Sir W. D. (Colchester)

    Sears, J. E.

    Vivian, Henry

    Philipps, Col. Ivor (S'thampton)

    Seaverns J. H.

    Walker, H. De R. (Leicester)

    Philipps, Owen C. (Pembroke)

    Seely, Major J. B.

    Wallace, Robert

    Pickersgill, Edward Hare

    Shackleton, David James

    Walsh, Stephen

    Pirie, Duncan V.

    Shaw, Rt. Hon. T. (Hawick, B)

    Walters, John Tudor

    Price, C.E.(Edinburgh, Central)

    Sheehan, Daniel Daniel

    Walton, Sir John L.(Leeds, S.)

    Priestley, Arthur (Grantham)

    Sheehy, David

    Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

    Radford, G. H.

    Shipman, Dr. John G.

    Ward, John (Stoke upon Trent

    Rainy, A. Holland

    Silcock, Thomas Ball

    Ward, W. Dudley(Southampt'n

    Raphael, Herbert H.

    Simon, John Allsebrook

    Wason, John Cathcart(Orkney)

    Rea, Russell (Gloucester)

    Sinclair, Rt. Hon. John

    Waterlow, D. S.

    Rea, Walter Russell(Scarboro'

    Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie

    Watt, H. Anderson

    Redmond, John E. (Waterford)

    Smyth, Thomas F.(Leitrim, S.)

    Wedgwood, Josiah C.

    Rees, J. D.

    Soames, Arthur Wellesley

    Weir, James Galloway

    Rendall, Athelstan

    Spicer, Sir Albert

    While, George (Norfolk)

    Renton, Major Leslie

    Stanger, H. Y.

    White, J. D. (Dumbartonshire)

    Richards, Thomas(W. Monm'th

    Stanley, Hn. A. Lyulph(Chesh.)

    Whitehead, Rowland

    Rickett, J. Compson

    Stewart, Halley (Greenock)

    Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

    Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)

    Stewart-Smith, D. (Kendal)

    Wiles, Thomas

    Roberts, G. H. (Norwich)

    Strachey, Sir Edward

    Wilkie, Alexander

    Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)

    Straus, B. S. (Mile End)

    Williams, J. (Glamorgan)

    Robertson, Rt. Hn. E. (Dundee)

    Strauss, E. A. (Abingdon)

    Williamson, A.

    Robertson, SirG.Scott(Bradf'rd

    Stuart, James (Sunderland)

    Wills, Arthur Walters

    Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside

    Sullivan, Donal

    Wilson, Henry J. (York, W.R.)

    Robinson, S.

    Summerbell, T.

    Wilson, J. H. (Middlesbrough)

    Robson, Sir William Snowdon

    Sutherland, J. E.

    Wilson,J. W.(Worcestersh. N.)

    Rogers, F. E. Newman

    Taylor, John W. (Durham)

    Winfrev, R.

    Rose, Charles Day

    Tennant, SirEdward(Salisbury)

    Wood, T. M'Kinnon

    Rowlands, J.

    Tennant, H. J. (Berwickshire)

    Woodhouse,SirJ.T.(Huddersf'd

    Runciman, Walter

    Thomas, SirA. (Glamorgan, E.

    Yoxall, James Henry

    Russell, T. W.

    Thompson, J.W.H.(S'mers't,E.

    Rutherford, V. H. (Brentford)

    Tomkinson, James

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES—

    Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)

    Toulmin, George

    Mr. Whiteley and Mr. J. A.

    Schwann, SirC.E(Manchester)

    Ure, Alexander

    Pease.

    NOES.

    Acland-Hood.Rt.HnSirAlexF

    Fell, Arthur

    Parker, Sir Gilbert(Gravesend)

    Anson, Sir William Reynell

    Fetherstenhaugh, Godfrey

    Pease, Herbert Pike(Darlington)

    Arkwright, John Stanhope

    Finch, Rt. Hon. George H.

    Ratcliff, Major R. F.

    Arnold-Forster, Rt. Hn. Hugh O.

    Forster, Henry William

    Rawlinson,John Frederick Peel

    Balcarres, Lord

    Gardner, Ernest (Berks, East)

    Roberts, S.(Sheffield, Ecclesall

    Banbury, Sir Frederick George

    Gordon, J. (Londonderry, S.)

    Rutherford, W. W.(Liverpool)

    Banner, John S. Harmood.

    Hamilton, Marquess of

    Salter, Arthur Clavell

    Barrie, H.T.(Londonderry,N.)

    Harrison-Broadley, Col. H. B.

    Sandys,Lieut.-Col. Thos. Myles

    Beach, Hn. Michael HughHicks

    Hay, Hon. Claude George

    Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert

    Beckett, Hon. Gervase

    Hervey,F.W.F.(Bury S. Edm'ds

    Sloan, Thomas Henry

    Bridgeman, W. Clive

    Hill, Sir Clement(Shrewsbury)

    Smith,Abel H. (Hertford, East

    Butcher, Samuel Henry

    Hill, Henry Stanley (Staff'sh.)

    Smith,F.E. (Liverpool, Walton)

    Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

    Houston, Robert Paterson

    Starkey, John R.

    Cave, George

    Kennaway, Rt. Hon.SirJohnH.

    Slone, Sir Benjamin

    Cavendish, Rt. Hn. Victor C.W.

    Keswick, William

    Thomson, W. Mitchell-(Lanark

    Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

    Kimber, Sir Henry

    Thornton, Percy M.

    Cecil, Lord John P. Joicey-

    Lambton, Hon. Frederick Win.

    Valentia, Viscount

    Cecil, Lord R. (Marylebone,E.)

    Lonsdale, John Brownlee

    Vincent, Col. Sir C.E. Howard

    Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

    Lowe, Sir Francis William

    Walrond, Hon. Lionel

    Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow)

    Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred

    Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.

    Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)

    Maclver, David (Liverpool)

    Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm

    Craig, Chas. Curtis (Antrim, S.)

    Marks, H. H. (Kent)

    Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-

    Craik, Sir Henry

    Mason, James F. (Windsor)

    Younger, George

    Doughty, Sir George

    Meysey-Thompson, E. C.

    Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

    Morpeth, Viscount

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES—

    Du Cros, Harvey

    Nicholson, Wm. G. (Petersfield)

    Mr. Lane-Fox and Mr.

    Faber, George Denison (York)

    Nield, Herbert

    Gibbs.

    Faber, Capt. W. V.(Hants,W.)

    O'Niell, Hon. Robert Torrens

    CLASS V.
    6. "That a sum, not exceeding £1,196,905, be granted to His Majesty,
    828
    to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1907,

    829
    for Expenditure on the Services included in Class V. of the Estimates for Civil Services, viz.:—

    £

    1.

    Diplomatic and Consular Services

    303,856

    2.

    Colonial Services

    827,952

    3.

    Telegraph Subsidies and Pacific Cable

    49,497

    4.

    Cyprus (Grant in Aid)

    1,000

    5.

    Treasury Chest Fund

    14,600

    £1,196,905

    Question put.
    The Committee divided:—Ayes, 337; Noes, 79. (Division List, No. 291.)

    AYES.

    Abraham,William(Cork,N.E.)

    Churchill, Winston Spencer

    Ginnell, L.

    Acland, Francis Dyke

    Clarke, C. Goddard

    Gladstone, Rt.Hon. Herb. John

    Adkins, W. Ryland D.

    Cleland, J. W.

    Glover, Thomas

    Agnew, George William

    Clough, W.

    Goddard, Daniel Ford

    Alden, Percy

    Coats,Sir T.Glen(Renfrew,W.)

    Gooch, George Peabody

    Allen, A. Acland (Christchurch

    Cobbold, Felix Thornley

    Greenwood, G. (Peterborough)

    Allen, Charles P. (Stroud)

    Collins, Stephen (Lambeth)

    Greenwood, Hamar (York)

    Armitage R.

    Collins, Sir W.J.(S.Pancras,W.)

    Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward

    Astbury, John Meir

    Condon, Thomas Joseph

    Griffith, Ellis J.

    Atherley-Jones, L.

    Cooper, G. J.

    Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill

    Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth)

    Corbett,C.H.(Sussex,EGr inst'd

    Gullaud, John W.

    Baker, Joseph A. (Finsbury, E.

    Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.

    Gurdon, Sir W.Brampton

    Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight)

    Cory, Clifford John

    Haldane, Rt. Hon. Richard B.

    Barlow, Percy (Bedford)

    Cotton, Sir H. J. S.

    Hall, Frederick

    Barnard, E. B.

    Cowan, W. H.

    Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Lewis

    Barran, Rowland Hirst

    Cox, Harold

    Hardie,J.Keir(MerthyrTydvil

    Beale, W. P.

    Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth)

    Harmsworth, Cecil B. (Worc'r.

    Beaumont, W. C. B. (Hexham)

    Cremer, William Randal

    Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale)

    Beck, A. Cecil

    Crombie, John William

    Haslam, James (Derbyshire)

    Bell, Richard

    Crooks, William

    Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth)

    Bellairs, Carlyon

    Crossley, William J.

    Haworth, Arthur A.

    Benn,Sir J.Williams(Devonp'rt

    Cullinan, J.

    Hayden, John Patrick

    Benn,W. (T'wr HamletsS.Geo.

    Dalziel, James Henry

    Hazel, Dr. A. E.

    Berridge, T. H. D.

    Davies, Ellis William (Eifion)

    Hazleton, Richard

    Bertram, Julius

    Davies, Timothy (Fulham)

    Healy, Timothy Michael

    Bethell, J. H. (Essex,Romford)

    Davies, W. Howell (Bristol, S.)

    Hedges, A. Paget

    Bethell, T. R. (Essex, Maldon)

    Dewar, Arthur (Edinburgh,S.)

    Helme, Norval Watson

    Billson, Alfred

    Dickinson, W.H.(St.Pancras,N.

    Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

    Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine

    Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.

    Henry, Charles S.

    Black,Arthur W.(Bedfordshire)

    Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

    Higham, John Sharp

    Bolton, T.D.(Derbyshire, N.E.

    Dobson, Thomas W.

    Hobart, Sir Robert

    Bottomley, Horatio

    Duckworth, James

    Hobhouse, Charles E. H.

    Boulton, A. C. F. (Ramsey)

    Dunn, A. Edward (Camborne)

    Holden, E. Hopkinson

    Brace, William

    Dunne,Maj.E.Martin(Walsall)

    Holland, Sir William Henry

    Bramsdon, T. A.

    Edwards, Clement (Donbigh)

    Hooper, A. G.

    Brigg, John

    Edwards, Enoch (Hanley)

    Hope,W.Bateman(Somerset,N.

    Brocklehurst, W. B.

    Edwards, Frank (Radnor)

    Horniman, Emslie John

    Brooke, Stopford

    Elibank, Master of

    Hudson, Walter

    Brunner, J.F.L.(Lancs.,Leigh)

    Ellis, Rt. Hon. John Edward

    Hyde, Clarendon

    Brunner.Sir John T.(Cheshire)

    Erskine, David C.

    Illingworth, Percy H.

    Bryce, Rt. Hn. Jas. (Aberdeen)

    Essex, R. W.

    Isaacs, Rufus Daniel

    Bryce, J. A. (Inverness Burghs)

    Eve, Harry Trelawney

    Jackson, R. IS.

    Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn

    Everett, R. Lacey

    Jacoby, James Alfred

    Burke, E. Haviland-

    Fenwick, Charles

    Jardine, Sir J.

    Burns, Rt. Hon. John

    Ferens, T. R.

    Johnson, W. (Nuneaton)

    Burnyeat, W. J. D.

    Ferguson, R. C. Munro

    Jones, Leif (Apple by)

    Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas

    Ffreneh, Peter

    Jones,William (Carnarvon-sh.)

    Buxton, Rt. Hn. Sydney Chas.

    Field, William

    Jowett, F. W.

    Byles, William Pollard

    Fiennes, Hon. Eustace

    Joyce, Michael

    Cairns, Thomas

    Findlay, Alexander

    Kearley, Hudson E.

    Carr-Gomm, H. W.

    Flynn, James Christopher

    Kekewich, Sir George

    Causton, Rt.HnRichardKnight

    Foster, Rt. Hon. Sir Walter

    Kincaid-Smith, Captain

    Cawley, Frederick

    Freeman-Thomas, Freeman

    King, Alfred John (Knutsford)

    Chance, Frederick William

    Fuller, John Michael F.

    Laidlaw, Robert

    Channing, Francis Allston

    Fullerton, Hugh

    Lamb, Edmund G. (Leominster

    Cheetham, John Frederick

    Gibb, James (Harrow)

    Lamb, Ernest H. (Rochester

    Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R.

    Gill, A. H.

    Lambert, George

    Lamont, Norman

    O'Grady, J.

    Smyth,Thomas F. (Leitrim,S.)

    Layland-Barratt, Francis

    O'Kelly, James(Roscommon,N

    Soames, Arthur Wellesley

    Leese,SirJoseph F.(Accrington)

    O'Malley, William

    Spicer, Sir Albert

    Lehmann, R. C.

    O' Mara, James

    Stanger, H, Y.

    Lever,A. Levy (Essex,Harwich)

    O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

    Stanley.Hn. A. Lyulph (Chesh)

    Lever, W. H.(Cheshire, Wirral)

    Parker, James (Halifax)

    Stewart Halley (Greenock)

    Levy, Maurice

    Partington, Oswald

    Stewart-Smith, D. (Kendal)

    Lewis, John Herbert

    Paul, Herbert

    Strachey, Sir Edward

    Lloyd-George, Rt. Hon. David

    Paulton, James Mellor

    Straus, B. S. (Mile End)

    Lough, Thomas

    Pearce, Robert (Staffs. Leek)

    Strauss, E. A. (Abingdon)

    Lundon, W.

    Pearce, William (Limehouse)

    Stuart, James (Sunderland)

    Lupton, Arnold

    Pearson, Sir W. D. (Colchester

    Sullivan, Donal

    Lyell, Charles Henry

    Philippson, CoI. Ivor(S'thampton)

    Summerbell, T.

    Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester)

    Philipps, Owen C. (Pembroke)

    Sutherland, J. E.

    Macdonald, J. M. (FalkirkB'hs)

    Pickersgill, Edward Hare

    Taylor, John W. (Durham)

    Mackarness, Frederic C.

    Pirie, Duncan V.

    Tennant,SirEdward(Salisbury

    Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.

    Price, C. E. (Edinb'gh, Central)

    Tennant, H. J. (Berwickshire)

    MacVeagh, Jeremiah (Down,S

    Priestley, Arthur (Grantham)

    Thomas,Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.

    MacVeigh,Charles(Donegal E.

    Radford, G. H.

    Thompson,J.W.H.(Somerset,E

    M'Callum, John M.

    Rainy, A. Holland

    Tomkinson, James

    M'Kenna, Reginald

    Raphael, Herbert H.

    Toulmin, George

    M'Killop, W.

    Rea, Russell (Gloucester)

    Ure, Alexander

    M'Laren, H. D. (Stafford, W.)

    Rea, Walter Russell (Scarboro'

    Verney, F. W.

    M'Micking, Major G.

    Redmond, John E. (Waterford

    Vivian, Henry

    Mallet, Charles E.

    Rees, J. D.

    Walker, H. De R. (Leicester)

    Mansfield, H. Rendall (Lincoln)

    Rendall, Athelstan

    Wallace, Hubert

    Marks,G.Croydon(Launceston

    Renton, Major Leslie

    Walsh, Stephen

    Marnham, F. J.

    Richards,Thomas (W,Monm'th

    Walters, John Tudor

    Mason, A. E. W. (Coventry)

    Rickett, J. Compton

    Walton, Sir John L. (Leeds,S.)

    Massie, J.

    Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)

    Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

    Masterman, C. E. G.

    Roberts, G. H. (Norwich)

    Ward, John (Stoke-on-Trent)

    Meehan, Patrick A.

    Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)

    Ward, W. Dudley (Southampt'n

    Menzies, Walter

    Robertson,Rt Hn. E. (Dundee)

    Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney)

    Mieklem, Nathaniel

    Robertson,Sir G.scott(Bradf'rd

    Waterlow, D. S.

    Molteno, Percy Alport

    Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside)

    Watt, H. Anderson

    Mond, A.

    Robinson, S.

    Wedgwood, Josiah C.

    Montagu, E. S.

    Robson, Sir William Snowdon

    Weir, James Galloway

    Montgomery, H. G.

    Rogers, F. K. Newman

    White, George (Norfolk)

    Morgan, G. Hay (Cornwall)

    Rose, Charles Day

    White, J. D. (Dumbartonshire)

    Morrell, Philip

    Rowlands, J.

    Whitehead, Rowland

    Morse, L. L.

    Runciman, Walter

    Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

    Morton, Alpheus Cleophas

    Russell, T. W.

    Wiles, Thomas

    Murphy, John

    Rutherford, V. H. (Brentford)

    Wilkie, Alexander

    Myer, Horatio

    Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)

    Williams, J. (Glamorgan)

    Napier, T. B.

    Schwann, Sir C. K. (Manchester

    Williamson, A.

    Newnes, F. (Notts, Bassetlaw)

    Scott,A. H.(Ashton under Lyne

    Wills Arthur Walters

    Newnes, Sir George (Swansea)

    Seaverns, J. H.

    Wilson, Henry J. York,(W.R.)

    Nicholls, George

    Seely, Major J. B.

    Wilson,J.W.(Worcestersh.N.)

    Nicholson,Charles N.(Doncast'r

    Shackleton, David James

    Winfrey, R.

    Nolan, Joseph

    Shaw, Rt. Hn. T. (Hawick, B.

    Wood, T. M'Kinnon

    Norman, Henry

    Sheehan, Daniel Daniel

    Woodhouse,SirJT(Huddersf'd

    Norton, Captain Cecil William

    Sheehy, David

    Yoxall, James Henry

    Nuttall, Harry

    Shipman, Dr. John G.

    O'Brien, Kendal (TipperaryMid

    Silcock, Thomas Ball

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr.

    O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)

    Simon, John Allsebrook

    Whiteley and Mr. J. A.

    O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)

    Sinclair, Rt. Hon. John

    Pease.

    O'Donnell, C. J. (Walworth)

    Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie

    NOES.

    Acland-Hood, Rt.Hn.SirAlexF.

    Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

    Douglas, Rt. Hon A. Akers-

    Anson, Sir William Reynell

    Cave, George

    Du Cros, Harvey

    Arkwright, John Stanhope

    Cavendish, Rt.Hon.ViotorC.W.

    Faber, George Denison (York)

    Arnold-Forster,RtHn. Hugh O

    Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

    Faber, Capt. W. V. (Hants, W.)

    Balcarres, Lord

    Cecil, Lord John P. Joicey-

    Fell, Arthur

    Balfour, Rt.Hn.A.J.(CityLond.

    Cecil, Lord R. (Marylebone, E.

    Fetherstonhaugh, Godfrey

    Banbury, Sir Frederick George

    Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

    Finch, Rt. Hon. George H.

    Banner, John S. Harmood-

    Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow)

    Forster, Henry William

    Beach, Hn.Michael Hugh Hicks

    Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)

    Gardner, Ernest (Berks, East)

    Beckett, Hon. Gervase

    Craig,CharlesCurtis(AntrimS.

    Gibbs, G. A. (Bristol, West)

    Bridgeman, W. Clive

    Craik, Sir Henry

    Gordon, J. (Londonderry, S.)

    Butcher, Samuel Henry

    Doughty, Sir George

    Hamilton, Marquess of

    832

    833

    Harrison-Broadley. Col. H. B.

    Meysey-Thompson, E.

    Smith, F. E (Liverpool,Walton)

    Hay, Hon. Claude George

    Morpeth, Viscount

    Stone, Sir Benjamin

    Hervey, F.W.F.(BuryS.Edm'ds

    Nicholson, Wm. G.(Petersfield

    Thomson, W.Mitchell-(Lanark)

    Hill, Henry Staveley (Staft'sh.

    Nield, Herbert

    Thornton, Percy M.

    Hunt, Rowland

    O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens

    Valentia, Viscount

    Kennaway, Rt.Hn.Sir John H.

    Parker, Sir Gilbert (Gravesend)

    Vincent, Col. Sir C.E. Howard

    Keswick, William

    Pease,Herbert Pike(Darligton

    Walrond, Hon. Lionel

    Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm.

    Ratcliff, Major R. F.

    Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.)

    Lane-Fox, G. R.

    Rawlinson, John Frederick P.

    Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm

    Long, Rt.Hn.Walter(Dublin,S.

    Roberts, S. (Sheffield,Ecclesall)

    Wortley, Rt. Hn. C. B. Stuart-

    Lonsdale, John Brownlee

    Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool)

    Younger, George

    Lowe, Sir Francis william

    Salter, Arthur Clavell

    Lyttelton, Rt. Hn. Alfred

    Sandys,Lieut.-ColThos. Myles

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES—

    Maclver, David (Liverpool)

    Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert

    Mr. Starkie and Sir Clement

    Marks, H. H. (Kent

    Sloan, Thomas Henry

    Hill.

    Mason, James F. (Windsor)

    Smith, AbelH.(Hertford,East)

    CLASS VI.
    7. "That a sum, not exceeding £582, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the,31st day of March, 1907, for Expenditure in respect of the Services included in Class VI. of the Estimates for Civil Services, viz.—

    £

    3.

    Miscellaneous Charitable and other Allowances

    383

    4.

    Hospitals and Charities, Ireland

    199

    £582

    Question put.
    The Committee divided:—Ayes, 334; Noes, 78. (Division List No. 292.)

    AYES.

    Abraham, William (Cork.N.E.)

    Bryce, J. A. (Inverness Burghs)

    Davies, W. Howell (Bristol, S.)

    Acland, Francis Dyke

    Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn

    Dewar, Arthur (Edinburgh, S.)

    Adkins, W. Ryland D.

    Burke, E. Haviland-

    Dickinson, W.H. (St.PancrasN.

    Agnew, George William

    Burns, Rt. Hon. John

    Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.

    Alden, Percy

    Burnyeat, W. J. D.

    Dobson, Thomas W.

    Allen, A. Acland (Christchurch)

    Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas

    Duckworth, James

    Allen, Charles P. (Stroud)

    Buxton,Rt.Hn.Sydney Charles

    Dunn, A. Edward (Camborne)

    Armitage, R.

    Byles, William Pollard

    Dunne,Major E.Martin(Walsall

    Astbury, John Meir

    Cairns, Thomas

    Edwards, Clement (Denbigh)

    Atherley-Jones, L.

    Carr-Gomm, H. W.

    Edwards, Enoch (Hanley)

    Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth)

    Causton,Rt. Hn.Richard Knight

    Edwards, Frank (Radnor)

    Baker,Joseph A.(Finsbury, E.)

    Cawley, Frederick

    Elibank, Master of

    Baring,Godfrey(Isle of Wight)

    Chance, Frederick William

    Ellis, Rt. Hon. John Edward

    Barlow, Percy (Bedford)

    Channing, Francis Allston

    Erskine, David C.

    Barnard, E. B.

    Cheetham, John frederick

    Essex, R. W.

    Barran, Rowland Hirst

    Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R.

    Eve, Hairy Trelawney

    Beale, W. P

    Churchill, Winston Spencer

    Everett, R. Lacey

    Beaumont, W. C. B. (Hexham)

    Clarke, C. Goddard

    Fenwick, Charles

    Beck, A. Cecil

    Cleland, J. W.

    Ferens, T. R.

    Bell, Richard

    Clough, W.

    Ferguson, R. C. Munro

    Bellairs, Carlyon

    Coats,Sir T.Glen (Renfrew,W.)

    Ffrench, Peter

    Benn,SirJ.Williams(Dev'np'rt

    Cobbold, Felix Thornley

    Fiennes, Hon. Eustace

    Benn,W(T'w'r Hamlets,S.Geo.

    Collins, Stephen (Lambeth)

    Findlay, Alexander

    Berridge, T. H. D.

    Collins,Sir Wm. J.(S. PancrasW.

    Flavin, Michael Joseph

    Bertram, Julius

    Condon, Thomas Joseph

    Flynn, James Christopher

    Bethell, J. H. (Essex, Romford)

    Cooper, G. J.

    Foster, Rt. Hon. Sir Walter

    Bethell, T. R. (Essex, Maldon)

    Corbett,C.H(Sussex,E.Grinst'd

    Freeman-Thomas, Freeman

    Billson, Alfred

    Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.

    Fuller, John Michael F.

    Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine

    Cory, Clifford John

    Fullerton, Hugh

    Black, Arthur W. (Bedfordshire

    Cotton, Sir H.J.S.

    Gibb, James (Harrow)

    Bolton,T.D. (Derbyshire,N.E.)

    Cowan, W. H.

    Gill, A. H.

    Bottomley, Horatio

    Cox, Harold

    Ginnell, L.

    Boulton, A. C. F. (Ramsey)

    Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth)

    Gladstone,Rt.Hn.Herbert John

    Brace, William

    Cremer, William Randal

    Glendinning, R. G.

    Bramsdon, T. A.

    Crombie, John William

    Glover, Thomas

    Brigg, John

    Crooks, William

    Goddard, Daniel Ford

    Brocklehurst, W. B.

    Crossley, William J.

    Gooch, George Peabody

    Brooke, Stopford

    Cullinan, J.

    Greenwood, G. (Peterborough)

    Brunner,J.F.L (Lanes.,Leigh)

    Davies, Ellis William (Eifion)

    Greenwood, Hamar (York)

    Bryce,Rt.Hn.James (Aberdeen

    Davies, Timothy (Fulham)

    Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward

    Griffith, Ellis J.

    Mansfield, H. Rendall (Lincoln

    Russell, T. W.

    Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill

    Marks, G.Croydon (Launceston)

    Rutherford, V. H. (Brentford)

    Gulland, John W.

    Marnham, F. J.

    Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)

    Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

    Mason, A. E. W. (Coventry)

    Scott,A.H.(Ashton under Lyne)

    Haldane, Rt. Hon. Richard B.

    Massie, J.

    Sears, J. E.

    Hall, Frederick

    Masterman, C. F. G.

    Seaverns, J. H.

    Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Lewis

    Meehan, Patrick A.

    Seely, Major J. B.

    Hardie,J.Keir (MorthyrTydvil)

    Menzies, Walter

    Shackleton, David James

    Harmsworth, Cecil B. (Wore'r)

    Micklem, Nathaniel

    Shaw, Rt. Hon. T. (Hawick, B)

    Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale)

    Molteno, Percy Alport

    Sheehan, Daniel Daniel

    Haslam, James (Derbyshire)

    Mond, A.

    Sheehy, David

    Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth)

    Montagu, E. S.

    Shipman, Dr. John G.

    Haworth, Arthur A.

    Montgomery, H. G.

    Silcock, Thomas Ball

    Hayden, John Patrick

    Morgan, G. Hay (Cornwall)

    Simon, John Allsebrook

    Hazel, Dr. A. E.

    Morrell, Philip

    Sinclair, Rt. Hon. John

    Hazleton, Richard

    Morse, L. L.

    Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie

    Healy, Timothy Michael

    Morton, Alpheus Cleophas

    Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.)

    Hedges, A. Paget

    Murphy, John

    Soames, Arthur Wellesley

    Helme, Norval Watson

    Myer, Horatio

    Spicer, Sir Albert

    Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

    Napier, T. B.

    Stanger, H. Y.

    Henry, Charles S.

    Newnes, F. (Notts, Bassetlaw)

    Stanley. H.A Lyulph (Chesh.)

    Higham, John Sharp

    Newnes, Sir George (Swansea)

    Stewart, Halley (Greenock)

    Hobart Sir Robert

    Nicholls, George

    Stewart-Smith, D. (Kendal)

    Hobbouse, Charles E. H.

    Nicholson, CharlesN.(Doncaster

    Strachey, Sir Edward

    Holland, Sir William Henry

    Nolan, Joseph

    Straus, B. S. (Mile End)

    Hooper, A. G.

    Norman, Henry

    Strauss, E. A. (Abingdon)

    Hope, W.Bateman(Somerset,N

    Norton, Capt. Cecil William

    Stuart, James (Sunderland)

    Horniman, Emslie John

    Nuttall, Harry

    Sullivan, Donal

    Hudson, Walter

    O'Brien,Kendal(Tipperary Mid

    Summerbell, T.

    Hyde, Clarendon

    O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.

    Sutherland, J. E.

    Illingworth, Percy H.

    O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool).

    Taylor, John W. (Durham)

    Isaacs, Rufus Daniel

    O'Donnell, C. J. (Walworth)

    Tennant,Sir Edward(Salisbury

    Jackson, R. S.

    O'Grady, J.

    Tennant, H. J. (Berwickshire)

    Jacoby, James Alfred

    O'Kelly,James(Roscommon,N.

    Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan,E.)

    Jardine, Sir J.

    O'Malley, William

    Thompson.J.W.H. (Somerset,E

    Johnson, W. (Nuneaton)

    O'Mara, James

    Tomkinson, James

    Jones, Leif (Appleby)

    O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

    Toulmin, George

    Jones, William (Carnarvonshire

    Parker, James (Halifax)

    Ure, Alexander

    Jowett, F. W.

    Partington, Oswald

    Verney, F. W.

    Joyce, Michael

    Paul, Herbert

    Vivian, Henry

    Kearley, Hudson E.

    Paulton, James Mellor

    Walker, H. De R. (Leicester)

    Kekewich, Sir George

    Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek)

    Wallace, Robert

    Kincaid-Smith, Captain

    Pearce, William (Limehouse)

    Walsh, Stephen

    King, Alfred John (Knutsford)

    Pearson,Sir W. D. (Colchester)

    Walters, John Tudor

    Laidlaw, Robert

    Philipps,Col.Ivor (S'thampton)

    Walton, Sir John L. (Leeds, S.)

    Lamb, Edmund G. (Leominster

    Philipps, Owen C. (Pembroke)

    Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

    Lamb, Ernest H. (Rochester)

    Pickersgill, Edward Hare

    Ward, John (Stoke upon Trent)

    Lambert, George

    Pirie, Duncan V.

    Ward, W.Dudley(Southampton

    Lamont, Norman

    Price, C. E. ((Edinb'gh,Central)

    Wason,John Cathcart(Orkney)

    Layland-Barratt, Francis

    Priestley, Arthur (Grantham)

    Waterlow, D. S.

    Leese,Sir Joseph F.(Accrington

    Radford, G. H.

    Watt, H. Anderson

    Lehmann, R. C.

    Rainy, A. Rolland

    Wedgwood, Josiah C.

    Lever,A.Levy (Essex,Harwich)

    Raphael, Herbert H.

    Weir, James Galloway

    Lever, W. H. (Cheshire,Wirral)

    Rea, Russell (Gloucester)

    White, George (Norfolk)

    Levy, Maurice

    Rea, Walter Russell (Scarboro'

    White, J. D. (Dumbartonshire)

    Lewis, John Herbert

    Redmond, John E. (Waterford)

    Whitehead, Rowland

    Lloyd-George, Rt. Hon. David

    Rees, J. D.

    Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

    Lough, Thomas

    Rendall, Athelstan

    Wiles, Thomas

    Lundon, W.

    Renton, Major Leslie

    Wilkie, Alexander

    Lupton, Arnold

    Richards, Thomas(W.Monm'th

    Williams, J. (Glamorgan)

    Lyell, Charles Henry

    Rickett, J. Compton

    Williamson, A.

    Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester)

    Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)

    Wills, Arthur Walters

    Macdonald,J.M.(Falkirk B'ghs

    Roberts, G. H. (Norwich)

    Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R

    Mackarness, Frederic C.

    Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)

    Wilson, J.W. (Worcestersh.N.)

    Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.

    Robertson,Rt.Hn. E. (Dundee)

    Winfrey, R.

    MacVeagh,Jeremiah (Down, S.

    Robertson SirG.Scott(Bradf'rd

    Wood, T. M'Kinnon

    MacVeigh,Charles (Donegal,E.)

    Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside)

    Woodhouse,SirJ.T.(Huddersf'd

    M'Callum, John M.

    Robinson, S.

    Yoxall, James Henry

    M'Kenna, Reginald

    Robson, Sir William Snowdon

    M'Killop, W.

    Rogers, F. E. Newman

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr.Whiteley and Mr. J. A.

    M'Laren, H. D. (Stafford, W.)

    Rose, Charles Day

    Pease.

    M'Micking, Major G.

    Rowlands, J.

    Mallet, Charles E.

    Runciman, Walter

    836

    837

    NOES.

    Acland-Hood, Rt. Hn. Sir A. F.

    Finch, Rt. Hon. George H.

    Parker, Sir Gilbert (Gravesend)

    Anson, Sir William Reynell

    Forster, Henry William

    Pease, HerbertPike(Darlington

    Arkwright, John Stanhope

    Gardner, Ernest (Berks, East)

    Ratcliff, Major R. F.

    Arnold-Forster,Rt.Hn.Hugh O.

    Gordon, J. (Londonderry, S.)

    Rawlinson, John FrederickPeel

    Balcarres, Lord

    Hamilton, Marquess of

    Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall)

    Banbury, Sir Frederick George

    Harrison-Broadley, Col. H. B.

    Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool)

    Banner, John S. Harmood-

    Hay, Hon. Claude George

    Salter, Arthur Clavell

    Beach, Hn. Michael HughHicks

    Hervey, F.W.F(BurySEdmn'ds

    Sandys, Lieut.-Col. Thos. Myles

    Beckett, Hon. Gervase

    Hill, Sir Clement (Shrewsbury)

    Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert

    Bridgeman, W. Clive

    Hill, Henry Staveley (Staff'sh.)

    Sloan, Thomas Henry

    Butcher, Samuel Henry

    Houston, Robert Paterson

    Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East

    Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

    Hunt, Rowland

    Smith, F.E.(Liverpool,Walton)

    Cave, George

    Kennaway, Rt. Hn. Sir J. H.

    Starkey, John R.

    Cavendish, Rt.Hon.VictorC.W.

    Keswick, William

    Stone, Sir Benjamin

    Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

    Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm.

    Thornton, Percy M.

    Cecil, Lord John P. Joicey-

    Lane-Fox, G. R.

    Valentia, Viscount

    Cecil, Lord R. (Marylebone, E.)

    Long, Rt. Hn.Walter(Dublin,S.

    Vincent, Col. Sir C. E. Howard

    Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

    Lonsdale, John Brownlee

    Walrond, Hon. Lionel

    Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow)

    Lowe, Sir Francis William

    Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.)

    Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)

    Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred

    Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm

    Craig, Chas. Curtis (Antrim.S.)

    MacIver, David (Liverpool)

    Wortley, Rt. Hn. C. B. Stuart-

    Craik, Sir Henry

    Marks, H. H. (Kent)

    Younger, George

    Doughty, Sir George

    Mason, James F. (Windsor)

    Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

    Meysey-Thompson, E. C.

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES — Mr.

    Faber, George Denison (York)

    Morpeth, Viscount

    Mitchell-Thomson and Mr.

    Faber, Capt. W. V. (Hants, W.)

    Nicholson, W. G. (Petersfield)

    Gibbs.

    Fell, Arthur

    Nield, Herbert

    Fetherstonhaugh, Godfrey

    O'Neill, Hn. Robert Torrens

    CLASS VII.
    8. "That a sum, not exceeding £350,759, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1907, for Expenditure in respect of the Services included in Class VII. of the Estimates for Civil Services, viz.—

    £

    1. Temporary Commissions

    27,000

    2. Miscellaneous Expenses

    10,743

    3. Repayments to the Local Loans Fund

    58

    4. Ireland Development Grant

    85,000

    5. Repayments to Civil Contingencies Fund

    22,958

    6. Inter-Parliamentary Conference

    5,000

    7. Expenses under the Unemployed Workmen Act, 1905

    200,000

    £350,759

    Question put.
    The Committee divided:—Ayes, 322; Noes, 74. (Division List So. 293.)

    AYES.

    Abraham, Wm. (Cork, N.E.)

    Bellairs, Carlyon

    Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn

    Acland, Francis Dyke

    Benn,Sir J.Williams(Devonp'rt

    Burke, E. Haviland-

    Adkins, W. Ryland D.

    Benn, W.(T'wr Hamlets,S.Geo.

    Burns, Rt. Hon. John

    Agnew, George William

    Berridge, T. H. D.

    Burnyeat, W. J. D.

    Alden, Percy

    Bertram, Julius

    Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas

    Allen, A. Acland (Christchurch)

    Bethell, J. H. (Essex, Romford)

    Buxton, Rt. Hn. Sydney Chas.

    Allen, Charles P. (Stroud)

    Billson, Alfred

    Byles, William Pollard

    Arimtage, R.

    Birrell, Rt. Hn. Augustine

    Cairns, Thomas

    Astbury, John Meir

    Black, Arthur W. (Bedfordsh.

    Carr-Gomm, H. W.

    Atherley-Jones, L.

    Bolton, P. D. (Derbyshire,N.E.

    Causton,Rt.Hn. Richard Knight

    Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth)

    Bottomley, Horatio

    Cawley, Frederick

    Baker, Joseph A. (Finsbury, E.

    Boulton, A. C. F. (Ramsey)

    Channing, Francis Allston

    Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight)

    Brace, William

    Cheetham, John Frederick

    Barlow, Percy (Bedford)

    Bramsdon, T. A.

    Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R.

    Barnard, E. B.

    Brigg, John

    Churchill, Winston Spencer

    Barran, Rowland Hirst

    Brocklehurst, W. B.

    Clarke, C. Goddard

    Beale, W. P.

    Brooke, Stopford

    Cleland, J. W.

    Beaumont, W. C. B. (Hexham)

    Bryce, Rt. Hn. Jas. (Aberdeen)

    Clough, W.

    Beck, A. Cecil

    Bryce, J. A. (Inverness Burghs)

    Coats, Sir T.Glen(Renfrew,W.)

    Cobbold, Felix Thornley

    Hazleton, Richard

    Murphy, John

    Collins, Stephen (Lambeth)

    Healy, Timothy Michael

    Myer, Horatio

    Collins, Sir W.J. (S. Pancras,W.

    Hedges, A. Paget

    Napier, T. B.

    Condon, Thomas Joseph

    Helme, Norval Watson

    Nownes, F. (Notts,Bassetlaw)

    Cooper, G. J.

    Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

    Newnes, Sir George (Swansea)

    Corbett, C.H.(SussexEGrinst'd

    Henry, Charles S.

    Nicholls, George

    Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.

    Higham, John Sharp

    Nicholson, Charles N.(Doneast'r

    Cory, Clifford John

    Hobart, Sir Robert

    Nolan, Joseph

    Cotton, Sir IT. J. S.

    Hobhouse, Charles E. H.

    Norman, Henry

    Cowan, W. H.

    Holland, Sir William Henry

    Norton, Capt. Cecil William

    Cox, Harold

    Hooper, A. G.

    Nuttall, Harry

    Craig, Herb. J. (Tynemouth)

    Hope, W. Bateman(Somerset,N.

    O'Brien,Kendal (TipperaryMid

    Cremer, William Randal

    Horniman, Emslie John

    O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)

    Crombie, John William

    Hudson, Walter

    O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)

    Crooks, William

    Hyde, Clarendon

    O'Donnell, C. J. (Walworth)

    Crossley, William J.

    Illingworth, Percy H.

    O'Grady, J.

    Cullinan, J.

    Isaacs, Rufus Daniel

    O'Kelly, James (Roscommon,N.

    Dalziel, James Henry

    Jackson, R. S.

    O'Malley, William

    Davies, Ellis William (Eifion)

    Jacoby, James Alfred

    O'Mara, James

    Davies, Timothy (Fulham)

    Jardine, Sir J.

    O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

    Davies, W. Howell (Bristol, S.)

    Johnson, W. (Nuneaton)

    Parker, James (Halifax)

    Dewar, Arthur (Edinburgh, S.

    Jones,William (Carnarvonshire

    Partington, Oswald

    Dickinson,W.H.(St.Pancras,N.

    Jowett, F. W.

    Paul, Herbert

    Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.

    Joyce, Michael

    Paulton, James Mellor

    Dobson, Thomas W.

    Kearley, Hudson E.

    Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek)

    Duckworth, James

    Kekewich, Sir George

    Pearce, William (Limehouse)

    Dunn, A. Edward (Camborne)

    Kincaid-Smith, Captain

    Pearson, Sir W. D.(Colchester)

    Dunne, MajorE.Martin(Walsall

    King,Alfred John (Knutsford)

    Philipps,Col.Ivor (S'thampton

    Edwards, Clement (Denbigh)

    Laidlaw, Robert

    Philipps, Owen C. (Pembroke)

    Edwards, Enoch (Hanley)

    Lamb, Edmund G.(Leominster

    Piekersgill, Edward Hare

    Edwards, Frank (Radnor)

    Lamb, Ernest H. (Rochester)

    Pirie, Duncan V.

    Elibank, Master of

    Lambert, George

    Price, C.E.(Edinburgh,Central)

    Ellis, Rt. Hon. John Edward

    Lamont, Norman

    Priestley, Arthur (Grantham)

    Erskine, David C.

    Layland-Barratt, Francis

    Radford, G. H.

    Essex, R. W.

    Leese,Sir Joseph F.(Accrington

    Rainy, A. Holland

    Eve, Harry Trelawney

    Lehmann, R. C.

    Raphael, Herbert H.

    Everett, R. Lacey

    Lever, A. Levy (Essex,Harwich

    Rea, Russell (Gloucester)

    Fenwick, Charles

    Levy, Maurice

    Rea,Walter Russell (Scarboro')

    Kerens, T. R.

    Lewis, John Herbert

    Redmond, John E. (Waterford)

    Ferguson, R. C. Munro

    Lloyd-George, Rt.Hn. David

    Rees, J. D.

    Ffrench, Peter

    Lough, Thomas

    Rendall, Athelstan

    Field, William

    Lundon, W.

    Renton, Major Leslie

    Fiennes, Hon. Eustace

    Lupton. Arnold

    Richards,Thomas (W.Monm'th

    Findlay, Alexander

    Lyell, Charles Henry

    Rickett, J. Compton

    Flynn, James Christopher

    Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester)

    Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)

    Foster, Rt. Hn. Sir Walter

    Macdonald, J.M.(Falkirk Bg'hs

    Roberts, G. H. (Norwich)

    Fuller, John Michael F.

    Mackarness, Frederic C.

    Robertson, Rt.Hn.E. (Dundee)

    Fullerton, Hugh

    Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.

    Robertson,Sir G.Scott(Bradf'rd

    Gill, A. H.

    MacVeagh, Jeremiah (Down, S.

    Robertson, J. M.(Tyneside)

    Ginnell, L.

    MacVeigh, Charles (Donegal,E.

    Robinson, S.

    Glendinning, R. G.

    M'Kenna, Reginald

    Robson, Sir William Snowdon

    Glover, Thomas

    M'Killop, W.

    Rogers, F. E. Newman

    Goddard, Daniel Ford

    M'Laren, H. D. (Stafford, W.)

    Rose, Charles Day

    Gooch, George Peabody

    M'Micking, Major G.

    Rowlands, J.

    Greenwood, G. (Peterborough)

    Mallet, Charles E.

    Runciman, Walter

    Greenwood, Hamar (York)

    Mansfield, H. Rendall(Lincoln)

    Russell, T. W.

    Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward

    Marks,G.Croydon (Launceston)

    Samuel, Herbert L.(Cleveland)

    Griffith, Ellis J.

    Marnham, F. J.

    Schwann, Sir C.F.(Manchester)

    Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill

    Mason, A. E. W. (Coventry)

    Scott, A. H. (Ashton-und.-Lyne

    Gulland, John W.

    Massie, J.

    Sears, J. E.

    Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

    Masterman, C. F. G.

    Seaverns, J.H.

    Haldane, Rt. Hon. Richard B.

    Meehan, Patrick A.

    Seely, Major J. B.

    Hall, Frederick

    Menzies, Walter

    Shackleton, David James

    Harcourt, Right Hon. Lewis

    Micklem, Nathaniel

    Shaw, Rt. Hon. T. (Hawick,B.)

    Hardie, J. Keir(Merthyr Tydvil)

    Molteno, Percy Alport

    Sheehan, Daniel Daniel

    Harmsworth, Cecil B. (Worc'r)

    Mond, A.

    Sheehy, David

    Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale)

    Montagu, E. S.

    Shipman, Dr. John G.

    Haslam, James (Derbyshire)

    Montgomery, H. G.

    Silcock, Thomas Ball

    Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth)

    Morgan G. Hay (Cornwall)

    Simon, John Allsebrook

    Haworth, Arthur A.

    Morrell, Philip

    Sinclair, Rt. Hon. John

    Hayden, John Patrick

    Morse, L. L.

    Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie

    Hazel, Dr. A. E.

    Morton, Alpheus, Cleophis

    Smyth, Thomas F.(Leltrim, S.)

    840

    841

    Soames, Arthur Wellesley

    Toulmin, George

    Whitehead, Rowland

    Spicer, Sir Albert

    Ure, Alexander

    Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

    Stanger, H. Y.

    Verney, F. W.

    Wiles, Thomas

    Stanley,Hn. A.Lyulph (Chesh.

    Walker, H. De R. (Leicester)

    Wilkie, Alexander

    Stewart, Halley (Greenock)

    Wallace, Robert

    Williams, J. (Glamorgan)

    Stewart-Smith, P. (Kendal)

    Walsh, Stephen

    Williamson, A.

    Strachey, Sir Edward

    Walters, John Tudor

    Wills, Arthur Walters

    Straus, B. S. (Mite End)

    Walton, Sir John L. (Leeds, S.)

    Wilson, Henry J. (York, W.R.)

    Strauss, E. A. (Abington)

    Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

    Wilson, J. W.(Worcestersh. N.)

    Stuart, James (Sunderland)

    Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent

    Winfrey, R.

    Sullivan, Donal

    Ward, W.Dudley (Southampt'n

    Wood, T. M'Kinnon

    Summerbell, T.

    Wason,John Cathcart (Orkney)

    Woodhouse,SirJ.T.(Hudd'rs'fd

    Sutherland, J.E.

    Waterlow, P. S.

    Yoxall, James Henry

    Taylor, John W. (Durham)

    Watt, H. Anderson

    Tennant, Sir Edward(Salisbury

    Wedgwood, Josiah C.

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr.

    Thomas, Sir A.(Glamorgan, E.

    Weir, James Galloway

    Whiteley and Mr. J. A.

    Thompson, J.W.H.(Somerset,E

    White, George (Norfolk)

    Pease.

    Tomkinson, James

    White, J. P. (Dumbartonshire)

    NOES.

    Acland-Hood,Rt.Hn.SirAlex.F.

    Fetherstonhaugh, Godfrey

    Nicholson, Win. G.(Petersfield)

    Anson, Sir William Reynell

    Finch, Rt. Hon. George H.

    Nield, Herbert

    Arkwright, John Stanhope

    Forster, Henry William

    O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens

    Arnold-Forster,RtHon.HughO.

    Gardner, Ernest (Berks, East)

    Parker,Sir Gilbert (Gravesend)

    Balcarres, Lord

    Gibb, James (Harrow)

    Pease,Herbert Pike(Darlington

    Banbury, Sir Frederick George

    Gordon, J. (Londonderry, S.)

    Ratcliff, Major R. F.

    Banner, John S. Harmood-

    Hamilton, Marquess of

    Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel

    Beach,Hn.Michael Hugh Hicks

    Harrison, Broadley, Col. H. B.

    Salter, Arthur Clavell

    Beekett, Hon. Gervase

    Hay, Hon. Claude George

    Sandys,Lieut.-Col.Thos. Myles

    Bridgeman, W. (Hive

    Hervey,F. W.F.(Bury S.Edm'd

    Sloan, Thomas Henry

    Butcher, Samuel Henry

    Hill, Sir Clement (Shrewsbury)

    Smith, Abel H.(Hertford, East)

    Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

    Hill, Henry Staveley (Staff'sh.)

    Smith, F. E.(Liverpool,Walton)

    Cave, George

    Houston, Robert Paterson

    Starkey, John R.

    Cavendish, Rt.Hon.Victor C.W.

    Hunt, Rowland

    Stone, Sir Benjamin

    Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

    Kennaway,Rt.Hon.Sir John H.

    Thomson,W.Mitchell (Lanark)

    Cecil, Lord John P. Joicey

    Keswick, William

    Thornton, Percy M.

    Cecil, Lord R. (Marylebone,E.)

    Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm

    Valentia, Viscount

    Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow)

    Lane-Fox, G. R.

    Vincent, Col.Sir C. E. Howard

    Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)

    Long, Rt.Hn.Walter (Dublin,S.

    Walrond, Hon. Lionel

    Craig,Charles Curtis (Antrim,S.

    Lonsdale, John Brownlee

    Williams, Col. R. (Porset, W.)

    Craik, Sir Henry

    Lowe, Sir Francis William

    Wortley, Rt.Hon.C.B. Stuart

    Doughty, Sir George

    Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred

    Younger, George

    Douglas, Rt.Hon. A. Akers-

    MacIver, David (Liverpool)

    Faber, George Denison (York)

    Marks, H. H. (Kent)

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr.

    Faber, Capt.W. V. (Hants, W.)

    Meysey-Thompson, E.G.

    Samuel Roberts and Mr.

    Fell, Arthur

    Morpeth, Viscount

    James Mason.

    ARMY ESTIMATES, 1906–7.
    9. "That a sum, not exceeding £1,803,100, be granted to his Majesty, to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1907, for Expenditure on the Army Services, includ-Army (Ordnance Factories), viz: —

    £

    5.

    Volunteer Corps, Pay and Allowances

    1,244,000

    13.

    War Office and Army Accounts Department

    559,000

    Ordnance Factories

    100

    £1,803,100 "

    Question put.
    The Committee divided:—Ayes, 318; Noes, 67. (Division List No. 294.)

    AYES.

    Abraham, William (Cork, N.E.)

    Allen, Charles P. (Stroud)

    Baring,Godfrey (Isle of Wight/

    Acland, Francis Pyke

    Armitage, R.

    Barlow, Percy (Bedford)

    Adkins, W. Rylund P.

    Astbury, John Meir

    Barnard, E. B.

    Agnew, George William

    Atherley-Jones, L.

    Barran, Rowland Hirst

    Alden, Percy

    Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth)

    Beale, W. P.

    Allen, A. Acland (Christchurch)

    Baker, Joseph A.(Finsbury,E.)

    Beaumont, W. C. B.(Hexham

    Beck, A. Cecil

    Fenwick, Charles

    Lehmann, R. C.

    Bellairs, Carlyon

    Ferens, T. R.

    Lever, A.Levy(Essex,Harwich)

    Benn,SirJ.Williams(Devonport

    Ferguson, R. C. Munro

    Levy, Maurice

    Benn,W.(T'w'r Hamlets,S.Geo.

    Ffreneh, Peter

    Lewis, John Herbert

    Berridge, T. H. D.

    Field, William

    Lloyd-George, Rt. Hon. David

    Bertram, Julius

    Fiennes, Hon. Eustace

    Lough, Thomas

    Bethell, J. H. (Essex,Romford)

    Findlay, Alexander

    Lundon, W.

    Billson, Alfred

    Flavin, Michael Joseph

    Lupton, Arnold

    Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine

    Flynn, James Christopher

    Lyell, Charles Henry

    Black,Arthur W.(Bedfordshire)

    Foster, Rt. Hon. Sir Walter

    Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester)

    Bolton, T.D. (Derbyshire,N.E.)

    Freeman-Thomas, Freeman

    Macdonald,J.M(FalkirkBurghs

    Bottomley, Horatio

    Fuller, John Michael F.

    Mackarness, Frederic C.

    Boulton, A. C. F. (Ramsey)

    Fullerton, Hugh

    Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.

    Brace, William

    Gill, A. H.

    MacVeagh, Jeremiah(Down,S.)

    Bramsdon, T. A.

    Ginnell, L.

    MacVeigh,Charles(Donegal, E.)

    Brigg, John

    Gladstone, Rt.Hn.HerbertJohn

    M'Callum, John M.

    Brocklehurst, W. B.

    Glendinning, R. G.

    M'Kenna, Reginald

    Brooke, Stopford

    Glover, Thomas

    M'Killop, W.

    Bryce,Rt.Hn.James(Aberdeen)

    Goddard, Daniel Ford

    M'Laren, H. D. (Stafford, W.)

    Bryce,J.A. (Inverness Burghs)

    Gooch, George Peabody

    M'Micking, Major G.

    Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn

    Greenwood, G. (Peterborough)

    Mallet, Charles E.

    Burke, E. Haviland-

    Greenwood, Hamar (York)

    Mansfield, H. Rendall (Lincoln)

    Burns, Rt. Hon. John

    Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward

    Marks,G.Croydon (Launceston)

    Burnyeat, W. J. D.

    Griffith, Ellis J.

    Marnham, F. J.

    Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas

    Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill

    Massie, J.

    Buxton,Rt.Hn.Sydney Charles

    Gulland, John W.

    Meehan, Patrick A.

    Byles, William Pollard

    Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

    Menzies, Walter

    Cairns, Thomas

    Haldane, Rt. Hon. Richard B.

    Micklem, Nathaniel

    Carr-Gomm, H. W.

    Hall, Frederick

    Molteno, Percy Alport

    Causton, Rt. Hn. RichardKnight

    Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Lewis

    Mond, A.

    Cawley, Frederick

    Hardie,J.Keir(Merthyr Tydvil)

    Montagu, E. S.

    Channing, Francis Allston

    Harmsworth, Cecil B. (Worc'r)

    Montgomery, H. G.

    Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R.

    Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale)

    Morgan, G. Hay (Cornwall)

    Churchill, Winston Spencer

    Haslam, James (Derbyshire)

    Morrell, Philip

    Clarke, C. Goddard

    Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth)

    Morse, L. L.

    Cleland, J. W.

    Haworth, Arthur A.

    Morton, Alpheus Cleophas

    Clough, W.

    Hayden, John Patrick

    Murphy, John

    Coats,Sir T.Glen (Renfrew, W.)

    Hazel, Dr. A. E.

    Myer, Horatio

    Cobbold, Felix Thornley

    Hazleton, Richard

    Napier, T. B.

    Collins, Stephen (Lambeth)

    Healy, Timothy Michael

    Newnes, F. (Notts, Bassetlaw)

    Collins,SirWm. J. (S.Pancras, W.

    Hedges, A. Paget

    Newnes, Sir George (Swansea)

    Condon, Thomas Joseph

    Helme, Norval Watson

    Nicholls, George

    Cooper, G. J.

    Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

    Nicholson,Charles N.(Doncast'r

    Corbett,C.H(Sussex,E.Grinst'd

    Henry, Charles S.

    Nolan, Joseph

    Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.

    Higham, John Sharp

    Norman, Henry

    Cory, Clifford John

    Hobart, Sir Robert

    Norton, Capt. Cecil William

    Cotton, Sir H. J. S.

    Hobhouse, Charles E. H.

    Nuttall Harry

    Cowan, W. H.

    Holland, Sir William Henry

    O'Brien,Kendal(Tipperary Mid)

    Cox, Harold

    Hooper, A. G.

    O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)

    Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth)

    Hope,W.Bateman (Somerset,N

    O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)

    Cremer, William Randal

    Horniman, Emslie John

    O'Donnell, C. J. (Walworth)

    Crombie, John William

    Hudson, Walter

    O'Grady, J.

    Crossley, William J.

    Hyde, Clarendon

    O'Kelly,James(Roscommon,N.

    Cullinan, J.

    Illingworth, Percy H.

    O'Malley William

    Dalziel, James Henry

    Isaacs, Rufus Daniel

    O'Mara, James

    Davies, Ellis William (Eifion)

    Jackson,R. S.

    O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

    Davies, Timothy (Fulham)

    Jacoby, James Alfred

    Parker, James (Halifax)

    Davies, W. Howell (Bristol, S.)

    Jardine, Sir J.

    Partington, Oswald

    Dickinson, W.H.(St.Pancras,N.

    Johnson, W. (Nuneaton)

    Paul, Herbert

    Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.

    Jones, William(Carnarvonshire)

    Paulton, James Mellor

    Dobson, Thomas W.

    Jowett, F. W.

    Pearce, Robert Staffs, (Leek)

    Duckworth, James

    Joyce, Michael

    Pearce, William (Limehonse)

    Dunn, A. Edward (Camborne)

    Kearley, Hudson E.

    Pearson, Sir W. D. (Colchester)

    Dunne,MajorE.Martin(Walsall)

    Kekewich, Sir George

    Philipps,Col. Ivor(S'thampton)

    Edwards, Clement (Denbigh)

    Kincaid-Smith, Captain

    Philipps, Owen C. (Pembroke)

    Edwards, Enoch (Hanley)

    King, Alfred John (Knutsford)

    Pickersgill, Edward Hare

    Edwards, Prank (Radnor)

    Laidlaw, Robert

    Pirie, Duncan V.

    Elibank, Master of

    Lamb, Edmund G. (Leominster)

    Price, C. E. (Edinb'gh,Central)

    Ellis, Rt. Hon. John Edward

    Lamb, Ernest H. (Rochester)

    Priestley, Arthur (Grantham)

    Erskine, David C.

    Lambert, George

    Rainy, A. Rolland

    Essex, R. W.

    Lamont, Norman

    Raphael, Herbert H.

    Eve, Harry Trelawney

    Layland-Barratt, Francis

    Rea, Russell (Gloucester)

    Everett, R. Lacey

    Leese,Sir JosephF.(Accrington)

    844

    845

    Rea,Walter Russell (Scarboro')

    Silcock, Thomas Ball

    Walters, John Tudor

    Redmond, John E. (Waterford)

    Simon, John Allsebrook

    Walton, Sir John L. (Leeds, S.)

    Kendall, Athelstan

    Sinclair, Rt. Hon. John

    Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

    Richards, Thomas(W. Monm'th

    Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie

    Ward, John (Stoke upon Trent)

    Rickett, J. Compton

    Smyth, ThomasF. (Leitrim, S.)

    Ward, W. Dudley (S'thampton

    Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)

    Soames, Arthur Wellesley

    Wason, John Cathcart(Orkney)

    Roberts, G. H. (Norwich)

    Spicer, Sir Albert

    Waterlow, D. S.

    Robertson,Rt. Hn. E. (Dundee)

    Stanley, Hn. A. Lyulph(Chesh.)

    Watt, H. Anderson

    Robertson,SirG.Scott(Bradf'rd

    Stewart-Smith, D. (Kendal)

    Wedgwood, Josiah C.

    Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside)

    Strachey, Sir Edward

    Weir, James Galloway

    Robinson, S.

    Straus, B. S. (Mile End)

    White, George (Norfolk)

    Robson, Sir William Snowdon

    Strauss, E. A. (Abingdon)

    White, J. D. (Dumbartonshire)

    Rogers, F. E. Newman

    Stuart, James (Sunderland)

    Whitehead, Rowland

    Rose, Charles Day

    Sullivan, Donal

    Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

    Rowlands, J.

    Summerbell, T.

    Wiles, Thomas

    Runciman, Walter

    Sutherland, J. E.

    Wilkie, Alexander

    Russell, T. W.

    Taylor, John W. (Durham)

    Williams, J. (Glamorgan)

    Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)

    Tennant,Sir Edward(Salisbury)

    Williamson, A.

    Schwann, SirC. E.(Manchester)

    Tennant, H. J. (Berwickshire)

    Wills, Arthur Walters

    Scott, A.H.(Ashton-underLyne)

    Thomas,Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.)

    Wilson, Henry J. (York, W.R.)

    Sears, J. E.

    Thompson, J.W.H.(Somerset,E.

    Wilson, J.W. (WorcestershireN.)

    Seaverns, J. H.

    Tomkinson, James

    Winfrey, R.

    Seely, Major J. B.

    Toulmin, George

    Wood, T. M'Kinnon

    Shackleton, David James

    Ure, Alexander

    Woodhouse,SirJ.T.(Huddersf'd

    Shaw, Rt. Hon. T. (Hawick B.)

    Verney, F. W.

    Yoxall, James Henry

    Sheehan, Daniel Daniel

    Walker, H. De R. (Leicester)

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr.

    Sheehy, David

    Wallace, Robert

    Whiteley and Mr. J. A.

    Shipman, Dr. John G.

    Walsh, Stephen

    Pease.

    NOES.

    Anson, Sir William Reynell

    Fetherstonhaugh, Godfrey

    Morpoth, Viscount

    Arkwright, John Stanhope

    Finch, Rt. Hon. George H.

    Nield, Herbert

    Arnold-Forster,Rt.Hn.Hugh O.

    Forster, Henry William

    O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens

    Balcarres, Lord

    Gardner, Ernest (Berks, East)

    Pease,HerbertPike(Darlington)

    Banbury, Sir Frederick George

    Gibbs, G. A. (Bristol, West)

    Ractliff, Major R. F.

    Banner, John S. Harmood-

    Gordon, J. (Londonderry, S.)

    Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel

    Beach, Hn. Michael HughHicks

    Hamilton, Marquess of

    Roberts,S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall)

    Beckett, Hon. Gervase

    Harrison-Broadley, Col. H. B.

    Salter, Arthur Clavell

    Bridgeman, W. Clive

    Hay, Hon. Claude George

    Sandys, Lieut.-Col. Thos.Myles

    Butcher, Samuel Henry

    Hervey,F.W.F. (BuryS.Edm'ds

    Sloan, Thomas Henry

    Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

    Hill, Sir Clement (Shrewsbury)

    Smith,F.E. (Liverpool,Walton)

    Cave, George

    Hill, Henry Staveley (Staff'sh.)

    Starkey, John R.

    Cavendish,Rt.Hon.Victor C.W.

    Houston, Robert Paterson

    Stone, Sir Benjamin

    Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

    Hunt, Rowland

    Thomson,W. Mitchell-(Lanark)

    Cecil, Lord John P. Joicey-

    Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm.

    Thornton, Percy M.

    Cecil, Lord R. (Marylebone, E.)

    Lane-Fox, G. R.

    Walrond, Hon. Lionel

    Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow)

    Long,Rt.Hn.Walter (Dublin.S)

    Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.)

    Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)

    Lonsdale, John Brownlee

    Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B.Stuart-

    Craik, Sir Henry

    Lowe, Sir Francis William

    Younger, George

    Doughty, Sir George

    Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred

    Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

    MacIver, David (Liverpool)

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Sir

    Faber, George Denison (York)

    Marks, H. H. (Kent)

    Alexander Acland-Hood and

    Faber, Capt. W.V. (Hants, W.)

    Mason, James F. (Windsor)

    Viscount Valentia.

    Fell, Arthur

    Meysey-Thompson, E. C.

    Motion made, and Question put, "That the Chairman do report these Resolutions to the House."
    The Committee divided:—Ayes, 298; Noes, 67. (Division List No. 295.)

    AYES.

    Abraham, William (Cork,N.E.)

    Atherley-Jones, L.

    Bellairs, Carlyon

    Acland, Francis Dyke

    Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth)

    Bann,SirJ. Williams(Devonport

    Adkins, W. Ryland D.

    Baring,Godfrey (Isle of Wight)

    Benn, W.(T'w'r Hamlets,S.Geo.

    Agnew, George William

    Barlow, Percy (Bedford)

    Berridge, T. H. D.

    Alden, Percy

    Barnard, E. B.

    Bertram, Julius

    Allen, Charles P. (Stroud)

    Barran, Rowland Hirst

    Bethell,J. H. (Essex, Romford)

    Armitage, R.

    Beale, W. P.

    Billson, Alfred

    Asquith,Rt.Hon.HerbortHenry

    Beaumont, W. C. B. (Hexham)

    Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine

    Astbury, John Meir

    Beck, A. Cecil

    Black, Arthur W.(Bedfordshire

    Bolton, T.D. (Derbyshire,N. E.)

    Gladstone, RtHn. Herbert John

    Mansfield, H. Rendall (Lincoln)

    Bottomley, Horatio

    Glendinning, R. G.

    Marks, G.Croydon(Launceston)

    Boulton, A. C. F. (Ramsey)

    Glover, Thomas

    Marnham, F. J.

    Brace, William

    Goddard, Daniel Ford

    Massie, J.

    Bramsdon, T. A.

    Greenwood, G. (Peterborough

    Meehan,PatrickA.

    Brigg, John

    Greenwood, Hamar (York)

    Menzies, Walter

    Brocklehurst, W. B.

    Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir' Edward

    Micklem, Nathaniel

    Brooke, Stopford

    Griffith, Ellis J.

    Molteno, Percy Alport

    Bryce,R,t.Hn. James(Aberdeen)

    Gull and, John W.

    Mond, A.

    Bryce, J. A. (Inverness Burghs)

    Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

    Montagu, E. S.

    Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn

    Haldane, Rt. Hon. Richard B.

    Montgomery, H. G.

    Burke, E. Haviland-

    Hall, Frederick

    Mooney, J. J.

    Burns, Rt. Hon. John

    Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Lewis

    Morgan, G. Hay (Cornwall)

    Burnyeat, W. J. D.

    Hardie,J.Keir(Merthyr Tydvil)

    Morrell, Philip

    Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas

    Hardy, George A. (Suffolk)

    Morse, L. L.

    Buxton, Rt. Hon.Sydney Charles

    Harmsworth, Cecil B. (Worc'r)

    Morton, Alpheus Cleophas

    Byles, William Pollard

    Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale)

    Murphy, John

    Cairns, Thomas

    Haslam, James (Derbyshire)

    Myer, Horatio

    Carr-Gomm, H. W.

    Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth)

    Napier, T. B.

    Causton,Rt. Hn.RichardKnight

    Haworth, Arthur A.

    Newnes, F. (Notts, Bassetlaw)

    Cawley, Frederick

    Hayden, John Patrick

    Newnes, Sir George(Swansea)

    Channing, Francis Allston

    Hazel, Dr. A. E.

    Nicholls, George

    Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R.

    Hazleton, Richard

    Nicholson, Chas. N.(Doncaster)

    Churchill, Winston Spencer

    Healy, Timothy Michael

    Nolan, Joseph

    Clarke, C. Goddard

    Hedges, A. Paget

    Norman, Henry

    Clough, W.

    Helme, Norval Watson

    Norton, Captain Cecil William

    Coats Sir T. Glen (Renfrew, W.)

    Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

    Nuttall, Harry

    Cobbold, Felix Thornley

    Henry, Charles S.

    O'Brien, K. (Tipperary Mid.)

    Collins, Stephen (Lambeth)

    Higham, John Sharp

    O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)

    Collins-SirWm.J.(S.Pancras W.

    Hobart, Sir Robert

    O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)

    Condon, Thomas Joseph

    Holland, Sir William Henry

    O'Donnell, C. J. (Walworth)

    Cooper, G. J.

    Hooper, A. G.

    O'Grady, J.

    Corbett,C. H(Sussex,E.Grinst'd

    Hope,W.Bateman(Somerset,N.

    O'Kelly,James(Roscommon,N.

    Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.

    Hudson, Walter

    O'Malley, William

    Cory, Clifford John

    Hyde, Clarendon

    O'Mara, James

    Cowan, W. H.

    Illingworth, Percy H.

    Parker, James (Halifax)

    Cox, Harold

    Isaacs, Rufus Daniel

    Partington, Oswald

    Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth)

    Tardine, Sir J.

    Paul, Herbert

    Cremer, William Randal

    Johnson, W. (Nuneaton)

    Pearce, Robert (Staffs., Leek)

    Crombie, John William

    Jones, William(Carnarvonshire)

    Pearce, William (Limehouse)

    Crossley, William J.

    Jowett, P. W.

    Pearson, Sir W.D. (Colchester)

    Cullinan, J.

    Joyce, Michael

    Philipps, Col. Ivor (S'thampton

    Davies, Ellis William (Eifion)

    Kearley, Hudson E.

    Philipps, Owen C. (Pembroke)

    Davies, W. Howell (Bristol, S.)

    Kekewith, Sir George

    Pickersgill, Edward Hare

    Dewar, Arthur (Edinburgh, S.)

    Kincaid-Smith, Captain

    Pirie, Duncan V.

    Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.

    King, Alfred John (Knutsford)

    Price, C. E. (Edinb'gh, Central)

    Dobson, Thomas W.

    Laidlaw, Robert

    Priestley, Arthur (Grantham)

    Duckworth, James

    Lamb, Edmund G. (Leominstier)

    Rainy, A. Rolland

    Dunn, A. Edward (Camborne)

    Lamb, Ernest H. (Rochester)

    Raphael, Herbert H.

    Dunne,Major E.Martin(Walsall

    Lambert, George

    Redmond, John E. (Waterford)

    Edwards, Clement (Denbigh)

    Lamont, Norman

    Rendall, Athelstan

    Edwards, Enoch (Hanley)

    Layland-Barratt, Francis

    Renton, Major Leslie

    Edwards, Frank (Radnor)

    Leese,SirJoseph F.(Accrington)

    Richards, Thos. (W. Monm'th)

    Elibank, Master of

    Lehmann, R. C.

    Rickett, J. Compton

    Ellis, Rt. Hon. John Edward

    Lever, A.Levy(Essex,Harwich)

    Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)

    Erskine, David C.

    Levy, Maurice

    Roberts, G. H. (Norwich)

    Essex, R. W.

    Lewis, John Herbert

    Robertson, Rt. Hn.E.(Dundee)

    Eve, Harry Trelawney

    Lloyd-George. Rt. Hon. David

    Robertson, SirG.Scott(Bradf'rd

    Everett, R. Lacey

    Lough, Thomas

    Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside)

    Fenwick, Charles

    Lundon, W.

    Robinson, S.

    Ferens, T. R.

    Lupton, Arnold

    Robson, Sir William Snowdon

    Ferguson, R. C. Munro

    Lyell, Charles Henry

    Rogers, F. E. Newman

    Ffreneh, Peter

    Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester)

    Rose, Charles Day

    Field, William

    Mackarness, Frederic C.

    Rowlands, J.

    Fiennes, Hon. Eustace

    MacVeagh, Jeremiah(Down, S.)

    Runciman, Walter

    Findlay, Alexander

    MacVeigh, Chas. (Donegal, E.)

    Russell, T. W.

    Flavin, Michael Joseph

    M'Callum, John M.

    Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)

    Foster, Rt. Hon. Sir Walter

    M'Kenna, Reginald

    Schwann, Sir C.E. (Manchester)

    Fuller, John Michael F.

    M'Killop, W.

    Scott, A.H(Ashton underLyne)

    Fullerton, Hugh

    M'Laren, H. D. (Stafford, W.)

    Seaverns, J. H.

    Gill, A. H.

    M'Micking, Major G.

    Seely, Major J. B.

    Ginnell, L.

    Mallet, Charles E.

    Shackleton, David James

    848

    849

    Shaw, Rt. Hon. T. (Hawick.B.)

    Tennant, Sir Edw. (Salisbury)

    While, George (Norfolk)

    Sheehan, Daniel Daniel

    Tennant, H. J. (Berwickshire)

    White, J. D. (Dumbartonshire)

    Sheehy, David

    Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.

    Whitehead, Rowland

    Shipman, D. John G.

    Thompson,J.W.H (Somerset,E.

    Whitley,J. H. (Halifax)

    Silcock, Thomas Ball

    Tomkinson, James

    Wiles, Thomas

    Simon, John Allsebrook

    Toulmin, George

    Wilkie, Alexander

    Sinclair, Rt. Hon. John

    Ure, Alexander

    Williams, J. (Glamorgan)

    Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie

    Verney, F. W.

    Williamson, A.

    Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim,S.)

    Walker, H. De R. (Leicester)

    Wills, Arthur Walters

    Spicer, Sir Albert

    Wallace, Robert

    Wilson, Henry J. (York, W R)

    Stanley, Hn. A. Lyulph (Chesh.

    Walsh, Stephen

    Wilson,J.W.(Worcestershire, N

    Stewart-Smith, D. (Kendal)

    Walters, John Tudor

    Winfrey, R.

    Strachey, Sir Edward

    Walton, Sir John L. (Leeds, S.)

    Wood, T. M'Kinnon

    Straus, B. S. (Mile End)

    Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

    Woodhouse,SirJ.T.(Huddersf'd

    Strauss, E. A. (Abingdon)

    Ward, John (Stoke upon Trent)

    Yoxall, James Henry

    Stuart, James (Sunderland)

    Ward, W.Dudley(Southampt'n

    Sullivan, Donal

    Wason, John Cathcart(Orkney)

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr.

    Summerbell, T.

    Watt, H. Anderson

    Whiteley and Mr. J. A.

    Sutherland, J. E.

    Wedgwood, Josiah C.

    Pease.

    Taylor, John W. (Durham)

    Weir, James Galloway

    NOES.

    Acland-Hood,Rt.Hn.SirAlex.F

    Fetherstonhaugh, Godfrey

    O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens

    Anson, Sir William Reynell

    Finch, Rt. Hn. George H.'

    Pease, Herb, Pike (Darlington)

    Arkwright, John Stanhope

    Forster, Henry William

    Ratcliff, Major R. F.

    Arnold-Forster,Rt.Hn.HughO.

    Gibbs, G. A. (Bristol, West)

    Rawlinson, JohnFredk. Peel

    Balcarres, Lord

    Gordon, J. (Londonderry, S.)

    Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall)

    Banbury, Sir Frederick George

    Hamilton, Marquess of

    Salter, Arthur Clavell

    Banner, John S. Harmood-

    Harrison-Broadley, Col. H.B.

    Sandys, Lieut.-Col. Thos. Myles

    Beach, Hn.MichaelHugh Hicks

    Hay, Hon. Claude George

    Sloan, Thomas Henry

    Beckett, Hon. Gervase

    Hervey, F.W.F.(BurySEdm'ds

    Smith, Abel H. (Hertford,East)

    Bridgeman, W. Clive

    Hill, Sir Clement (Shrewsbury)

    Smith, F.E.(Liverpool, Walton

    Butcher, Samuel Henry

    Hill, Henry Staveley (Staff'sh.)

    Starkey, John R.

    Carson, Rt. Hn. Sir Edw. H.

    Houston, Robert Paterson

    Stone, Sir Benjamin

    Cave, George

    Hunt, Rowland

    Thomson,W. Mitchell-(Lanark)

    Cavendish, Rt. Hn. VictorC.W.

    Lambton, Hn. Frederick Wm.

    Thornton, Percy M.

    Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

    Lane-Fox, G. R.

    Valentia, Viscount

    Cecil, Lord John P. Joicey-

    Long, Rt.Hn.Walter(Dublin,S)

    Walrond, Hn. Lionel

    Cecil, Lord R. (Marylebone, E.)

    Lonsdale, John Brownlee

    Williams, Col R. (Dorset, W.)

    Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow)

    Lyttelton, Rt. Hn. Alfred

    Wortley, Rt. Hn. C. B.Stuart-

    Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)

    MacIver, David (Liverpool)

    Younger, George

    Craik, Sir Henry

    Marks, H. H. (Kent)

    Doughty, Sir George

    Mason, James F. (Windsor)

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Sir

    Douglas, Rt. Hn. A. Akers-

    Meysey-Thompson. K. C.

    Francis Lowe and Captain

    Faber, George Denison (York)

    Morpeth, Viscount

    Faber.

    Fell, Arthur

    Nield, Herbert

    Resolutions to be reported to-morrow.

  WAYS AND MEANS.
  Considered in Committee.
  (In the Committee.)
  [Mr. EMMOTT (Oldham) in the Chair.]
  Motion made, and Question put, "That towards making good the Supply granted to His Majesty for the Service of the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1907, the sum of £68,528,828 be granted out of the Consolidated Fund of the United Kingdom."
  The Committee divided:—Ayes, 252; Noes, 64. (Divisional List No. 296.)

  AYES.

  Abraham,William (Cork, N.E.)

  Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight)

  Berridge, T. H. D.

  Acland, Francis Dyke

  Barlow, Percy (Bedford)

  Bertram, Julius

  Agnew, George William

  Barnard, E. B.

  Billson, Alfred

  Alden, Percy

  Barran, Rowland Hirst

  Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine

  Armitage, R,

  Beale, W. P.

  Black,Arthur W. (Bedfordshire

  Asquith, Rt.Hn.Herbert Henry

  Beaumont, W. C. B. (Hexham)

  Bolton,T. D. (Derbyshire, N.E.)

  Astbury, John Meir

  Beck, A. Cecil

  Bottomley, Horatio

  Atherley-Jones, L.

  Bellairs, Carlyon

  Boulton, A. C. F. (Ramsey)

  Baker,Sir John (Portsmouth)

  Benn,W.(T'w'r Hamlets, S.Geo.

  Brace, William

  Bramsdon, T. A.

  Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth)

  O'Kelly,James(Roscommon,N.

  Brigg, John

  Haworth, Arthur A.

  O'Malley, William

  Brocklehurst, W. B.

  Hayden, John Patrick

  O'Mara, James

  Brooke, Stopford

  Hazel, Dr. A. E.

  Parker, James (Halifax)

  Bryce, J. A.(Inverness Burghs)

  Hazleton, Richard

  Paul, Herbert

  Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn

  Healy, Timothy Michael

  Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek)

  Burns, Rt. Hon. John

  Hedges, A. Paget

  Pearson, Sir W. D. (Colchester

  Burnyeat, W. J. D.

  Helme, Norval Watson

  Philipps,Col.Ivor (S'thampton]

  Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas

  Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

  Philipps, Owen C. (Pembroke)

  Buxton,Rt.Hn.Sydney Charles

  Higham, John Sharp

  Pirie, Duncan V.

  Byles, William Pollard

  Hobart, Sir Robert

  Price,C.E.(Edinburgh, Central)

  Cairns, Thomas

  Hope,W.Bateman (Somerset,N

  Priestley, Arthur (Grantham)

  Carr-Gomm, H. W.

  Hudson, Walter

  Radford, G. H.

  Causton,Rt.Hn.RichardKnight

  Hyde, Clarendon

  Rainy, A. Holland

  Cawley, Frederick

  Illingworth, Percy H.

  Raphael, Herbert H.

  Charming, Francis Allston

  Johnson, W. (Nuneaton)

  Redmond, John E. (Waterford

  Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R.

  Jones, William (Carnarvonshire)

  Rendall, Athelstan

  Clough, W.

  Jowett, F. W.

  Renton, Major Leslie

  Coast,Sir T.Glen (Renfrew, W.)

  Joyce, Michael

  Richards,Thomas (W.Monm'th

  Cobbold, Felix Thornley

  Kearley, Hudson E.

  Rickett, J. Compton

  Condon, Thomas Joseph

  Kekewich, Sir George

  Roberts, G. N. (Norwich)

  Cooper, G. J.

  Kincaid-Smith Captain

  Robertson,Rt. Hn. E. (Dundee

  Corbett,C H (Sussex,E.Grinst'd

  King, Alfred John (Knutsford)

  Robertson,Sir G.Scott(Bradf'rd

  Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.

  Lamb,Edmund G.(Leominster

  Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside)

  Cory, Clifford John

  Lamb, Ernest H. (Rochester)

  Robinson, S.

  Cowan, W. H.

  Lambert, George

  Robson, Sir William Snowdon

  Cox, Harold

  Lamont, Norman

  Rose, Charles Day

  Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth)

  Layland-Barratt, Francis

  Rowlands, J.

  Cullinan, J.

  Leese,Sir Joseph F. (Accrington

  Runciman, Walter

  Davies, Timothy (Fulham)

  Lehmann, R. O.

  Russell, T. W.

  Dewar, Arthur (Edinburgh, S.)

  Lever,A.Levy (Essex,Harwich

  Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)

  Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.

  Levy, Maurice

  Scott,A.H.(Ashton under Lyne)

  Dobson, Thomas W.

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Seaverns, J. H.

  Duckworth, James

  Lloyd-George, Rt. Hon. David

  Shackleton, David James

  Dunn, A. Edward (Camborne)

  Lough, Thomas

  Shaw,Rt. Hon. T. (Hawick, B.)

  Dunne,Major E.Martin(Walsall

  Lundon, W.

  Sheehan, Daniel Daniel

  Edwards, Clement (Denbigh)

  Lupton, Arnold

  Sheehy, David

  Edwards, Enoch (Hanley)

  Lyell, Charles Henry

  Shipman, Dr. John G.

  Edwards, Frank (Radnor)

  Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester)

  Silcock, Thomas Ball

  Elibank, Master of

  MacVeagh, Jeremiah (Down, S.

  Simon, John Allsebrook

  Ellis, Rt. Hon. John Edward

  MacVeigh, Charles (Donegal,E.

  Sinclair, Rt. Hon. John

  Erskine, David C.

  M'Callum, John M.

  Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie

  Essex, R. W.

  M'Kenna, Reginald

  Smyth,Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.)

  Eve, Harry Trelawney

  M'Killop, W.

  Spicer, Sir Albert

  Everett, B. Lacey

  M'Laren, H. D. (Stafford, W.)

  Stanley, Hn. A. Lyulph (Chesh.

  Fenwick, Charles

  Mansfield, H. Kendall (Lincoln)

  Stewart-Smith, D. (Kendal)

  Ferens, T. R.

  Marks,G. Croydon (Launceston)

  Strachey, Sir Edwar

  Ferguson, R. C. Munro

  Massie, J.

  Strauss, E. A. (Abindgon)

  Ffrench, Peter

  Meehan, Patrick A.

  Stuart, James (Sunderland)

  Field, William

  Menzies, Walter

  Sullivan, Donal

  Fiennes, Hon. Eustace

  Micklem, Nathaniel

  Summerbell, T.

  Findlay, Alexander

  Mond, A.

  Sutherland, J. E.

  Flavin, Michael Joseph

  Montagu, E. S.

  Taylor, John W. (Durham)

  Fuller, John Michael F.

  Montgomery, H. G.

  Tennant,Sir Edward (Salisbury

  Fullerton, Hugh

  Mooney, J. J.

  Thomas,Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.)

  Gill, A. H.

  Morgan, G. Hay (Cornwall)

  Thompson, J.W.H.(Somerset,E

  Ginnell, L.

  Morrell, Philip

  Tomkinson, James

  Gladstone,Rt.Hn.HerbertJohn

  Morse, L. L.

  Toulmin, George

  Glendinning, R. G.

  Morton, Alpheus Cleophas

  Ure, Alexander

  Glover, Thomas

  Murphy, John

  Verney, F. W.

  Goddard, Daniel Ford

  Newnes, F. (Notts, Bassetlaw)

  Walsh, Stephen

  Greenwood, G. (Peterborough)

  Newnes, Sir George (Swansea)

  Walton, Sir John L. (Leeds, S.)

  Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward

  Nicholls, George

  Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent

  Griffith, Ellis J.

  Nicholson, CharlesN.(Doncast'r

  Ward,W.Dudley (Southampt'n

  Gulland, John W.

  Nolan, Joseph

  Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney

  Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

  Norman, Henry

  Watt, H. Anderson

  Haldane, Rt. Hon. Richard B.

  Norton, Capt. Cecil William

  Weir, James Galloway

  Hall, Frederick

  Nuttall, Harry

  While, George (Norfolk)

  Harcourt, Right Hon. Lewis

  O'Brien,Kendal (TipperaryMid

  White, J. D. (Dumbartonshire)

  Hardy, George A. (Suffolk)

  O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)

  Whitehead, Rowland

  Harmsworth, Cecil B. (Wore'r)

  O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)

  Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

  Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale)

  O'Donnell, C. J. (Walworth)

  Wilkie, Alexander

  Haslam, James (Derbyshire)

  O'Grady, J.

  Williams, J, (Glamorgan)

  852

  853

  Wilson, Henry,T. (York, W.R.

  Wood, T. M'Kinnon

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr.

  Wilson, W. J.(Worcestersh. N.

  Woodhouse,Sir J.T.(Hudd'rsf'd

  Whiteley and Mr. J. A.

  Winfrey, R.

  Yoxall, James Henry

  Pease.

  NOES.

  Acland-Hood,RtHn.Sir Alex.F

  Fetherstonhaugh, Godfrey

  Nield, Herbert

  Anson, Sir William Reynell

  Finch, Rt. Hon. George H.

  O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens

  Arkwright, John Stanhope

  Forster, Henry William

  Pease,Herbert Pike(Darlington

  Arnold-Forster,Rt.Hn.Hugh O.

  Gibbs, G. A. (Bristol, West)

  Ratcliff, Major R. F.

  Balcarres, Lord

  Gordon,J.(Londonderry, South

  Rawlinson, John Frederick Pee

  Banbury, Sir Frederick George

  Hamilton, Marquess of

  Roberts, S.(Sheffield,Ecelesall)

  Banner, John S. Harmood

  Harrison-Broadley, Col. H. B.

  Satter, Arthur Clavell

  Beach,Hn.Michael Hugh Hicks

  Hay, Hon. Claude George

  Sandys, Lieut.-Col.Thos.Myles

  Beckett, Hon. Gervase

  Hervey,F.W.F.(BuryS.Edm'ds

  Sloan, Thomas Henry

  Bridgeman, W. Clive

  Hill, Sir Clement (Shrewsbury)

  Smith, Abel H.(Hertford, East)

  Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

  Hill, Henry Staveley (Staff'sh.)

  Smith,F. E. (Liverpool,Walton

  Cave, George

  Hunt, Rowland

  Starkey, John R.

  Cavendish,Rt.Hn. Victor C. W.

  Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm.

  Thomson, W.Mitchell (Lanark)

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Lane-Fox, G. R.

  Thornton, Percy M.

  Cecil, Lord John P. Joicey-

  Long,Rt. Hn. Walter(Dublin,S.

  Valentia, Viscount

  Cecil,Lord R. (Marylebone, E.)

  Lonsdale, John Brownlee

  Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.)

  Corbatt, A. Cameron (Glasgow)

  Lowe, Sir Francis William

  Wortley,Rt. Hon. C.B. Stuart-

  Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)

  Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred

  Younger, George

  Craik, Sir Henry

  MacIver, David (Liverpool)

  Doughty, Sir George

  Marks, H. H. (Kent)

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr.

  Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

  Mason, James F. (Windsor)

  George Faber and Mr.

  Faber, Capt.W.V. (Hants.,W.)

  Meysey-Thompson, E. C.

  Walrond.

  Fell, Arthur

  Morpeth, Viscount

  Motion made, and Question put, "That the Chairman do report this Resolution to the House."
  The Committee divided:—Ayes, 239; Noes, 55. (Division List No. 297.)

  AYES.

  Abraham, Wm. (Cork, N.E.)

  Byles, William Pollard

  Ferens, T. R.

  Acland, Francis Dyke

  Cairns, Thomas

  Ferguson, R. C. Munro

  Agnew, George William

  Carr-Gomm, H. W.

  Ffrench, Peter;

  Alden, Percy

  Causton, Rt.Hn.Richard Knight

  Field, William

  Armitage, R.

  Cawley, Frederick

  Fiennes, Hon. Eustace

  Asquith, Rt. Hn. Herbert H.

  Channing, Francis Allston

  Findlay, Alexander

  Astbury, John Meir

  Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R.

  Flavin, Michael Joseph]

  Atherley-Jones, L.

  Clough, W.

  Fuller, John Michael F.

  Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth)

  Coats, Sir T. Glen (Renfrew, W.

  Fullerton, Hugh

  Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight)

  Cobbold, Felix Thornley

  Gill, A. H.

  Barlow, Percy (Bedford)

  Condon, Thomas Joseph

  Ginnell, L.

  Barnard, E. B.

  Cooper, G. J.

  Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herbert J.

  Barran, Rowland Hirst

  Corbett,CH(SussexE. Grinst'd)

  Glendinning, R. G.

  Beale, W. P.

  Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.

  Glover, Thomas

  Beaumont, W. C. B. (Hexham)

  Cory, Clifford John

  Goddard, Daniel Ford

  Beck, A. Cecil

  Cowan, W. H.

  Greenwood, G. (Peterborough)

  Bellairs, Carlyon

  Cox, Harold

  Grey, Rt. Hn. Sir Edward

  Benn, W. (T'w'r Hamlets S Geo

  Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth

  Griffith, Ellis J.

  Berridge, T. H. D.

  Cremer, William Randal

  Gulland, John W.

  Bertram, Julius

  Cullinan, J.

  Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

  Billson, Alfred

  Davies, Timothy (Fulham)

  Haldane, Rt. Hon. Richard B.

  Birrell, Rt. Hn. Augustine

  Dewar, Arthur (Edinburgh, S.)

  Harcourt, Right Hon. Lewis

  Black, Arthur W.(Bedfordsh.)

  Dobson, Thomas W.

  Hardie, JKeir(Merthyr Tydvil)

  Bolton, T. D. (Derbyshire,N. E.

  Duckworth, James

  Hardy, George A. (Suffolk)

  Bottomley, Horatio

  Dunn, A. Edward (Camborne)

  Harmsworth, Cecil B. (Worc'r)

  Boulton, A. C. F. (Ramsey)

  Dunne, Maj. E Martin(Walsall)

  Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale)

  Brace, William

  Edwards, Clement (Denbigh)

  Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth)

  Bramsdon, T. A.

  Edwards, Frank (Radnor)

  Haworth, Arthur A.

  Brigg, John

  Elibank, Master of

  Hayden, John Patrick

  Brocklehurst, W. B.

  Ellis, Rt. Hn. John Edward

  Hazel, Dr. A. E.

  Bryce, Rt. Hn. Jas. (Aberdeen)

  Erskine, David C.

  Hazleton, Richard

  Bryce, J. A. (Inverness Burghs

  Essex, R. W.

  Healy, Timothy Michael

  Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn

  Eve, Harry Trelawney

  Hedges, A. Paget

  Burns, Rt. Hn. John

  Everett, R. Lacey

  Helme, Norval Watson

  Burnyeat, W. J. D.

  Fenwick, Charles

  Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

  Higham, John Sharp

  Morton, Alpheus Cleophas]

  Sheehy, David

  Hobart, Sir Robert

  Murphy, John

  Shipman, Dr. John G.

  Hope, W. Bateman (SomersetN

  Newnes, F. (Notts, Bassetlaw)

  Silcock, Thomas Ball

  Horniman, Emslie John

  Nicholls, George

  Simon, John Allsebrook

  Hudson, Walter

  Nicholson, Chas. N. (Doncaster

  Sinclair, Rt. Hon. John

  Illingworth, Percy H.

  Nolan, Joseph

  Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie

  Johnson, W. (Nuneaton)

  Norman, Henry

  Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.)

  Jones, Wm. (Carnarvonshire)

  Norton, Capt. Cecil William

  Spicer, Sir Albert

  Jowett, F. W.

  Nuttall, Harry

  Stanley, Hn. A. Lyulph (Chesh.

  Joyce, Michael

  O'Brien, K. (Tipperary, Mid)

  Strachey, Sir Edward

  Kekewich, Sir George

  O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)

  Strauss, E. A. (Abingdon)

  Kincaid-Smith, Captain

  O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)

  Stuart, James (Sunderland)

  Lamb, Edmund G. (Leominster

  O'Donnell, C. J. (Walworth)

  Sullivan, Donal

  Lamb, Ernest H. (Rochester)

  O'Grady, J.

  Summerbell, T.

  Lambert, George

  O'Kelly,James(Roscommon,N.

  Sutherland, J. E.

  Lamont, Norman

  O'Malley, William

  Taylor, John W. (Durham)

  Layland-Barratt, Francis

  O'Mara, James

  Tennant, Sir Edw. (Salisbury)

  Leese, Sir J. F. (Accrington)

  Parker, James (Halifax)

  Thomas, Sir A.(Glamorgan,E.)

  Lehmann, R. C.

  Paul, Herbert

  Thompson,JWH(Somerset, E.)

  Lever, A. Levy (Essex,Harwich

  Pearce, Robert (Staffs. Leek)

  Tomkinson, James

  Levy, Maurice

  Pearson, Sir W. D. Colchester)

  Toulmin, George

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Philipps, Col. Ivor (S'tham'ton)

  Ure, Alexander

  Lloyd-George, Rt. Hon. David

  Philipps, Owen C. (Pembroke)

  Verney, F. W.

  Lough, Thomas

  Pirie, Duncan V.

  Walsh, Stephen

  Lundon, W.

  Price, Robert John (Norfolk, E.

  Walton, Sir John L. (Leeds, S.)

  Lyell, Charles Henry

  Priestley, Arthur (Grantham)

  Ward, J. (Stoke upon Trent)

  Macdonald, J.R. (Leicester)

  Radford,G. H.

  Ward, W. Dudley (Southa'pt'n

  MacVeagh, Jeremiah (Down, S

  Rainy, A. Holland

  Wason, John Cathcart(Orkney)

  MacVeigh, Chas. (Donegal, E.)

  Redmond, John E. (Waterford

  Watt, H. Anderson

  M'Callum, John M.

  Rendall, Athelstan

  White, George (Norfolk)

  M'Kenna, Reginald

  Renton, Major Leslie

  White, J. D. (Dumbartonshire)

  M'Killop, W.

  Richards, Thos.(W.Monm'th)

  Whitehead, Rowland

  M'Laren, H. D. (Stafford, W.)

  Rickett, J. Compton

  Whitley,J.H. (Halifax)

  Mansfield, H. Rendall (Lincoln

  Roberts, G. H. (Norwich)

  Wilkie, Alexander

  Marks, G.Croydon(Launceston)

  Robertson,SirG.J.Scott (Bradf'rd

  Williams, J. (Glamorgan)

  Massie, J.

  Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside)

  Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R)

  Meehan, Patrick A.

  Robinson S.

  Wilson,J.W.(Worcestersh., N.)

  Menzies, Walter

  Rose, Charles Day

  Winfrey, R.

  Micklem, Nathaniel

  Runciman, Walter

  Wood, T. M'Kinnon

  Mond, A.

  Russell, T.W.

  Woodhouse, SirJT(Huddersf'd.

  Montagu, E. S.

  Samuel, Herb, L. (Cleveland)

  Yoxall, James Henry

  Montgomery, H. G.

  Scott, AH(AshtonunderLyne)

  Mooney, J. J.

  Seaverns, J. H.

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr.

  Morgan, G. Hay (Cornwall)

  Shackleton, David James

  Whiteley and Mr. J. A.

  Morrell, Philip

  Shaw, Rt. Hn. T. (Hawick, B.)

  Pease.

  Morse, L. L.

  Sheehan, Daniel Daniel

  NOES.

  Acland-Hood, RtHnSir Alex. F.

  Fell, Arthur

  Pease, Herb. Pike (Darlington)

  Anson, Sir William Reynell

  Fetherstonhaugh, Godfrey

  Ratcliff, Major R.F.

  Arkwright, John Stanhope

  Finch, Rt. Hn. George H.

  Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall

  Arnold-Forster, Rt. Hn. H. O.

  Forster, Henry William

  Salter, Arthur Clavell

  Balcarres, Lord

  Gibbs, G. A. (Bristol, West)

  Sloan, Thomas Henry

  Banner, JohnS. Harmood-

  Gordon,J. (Londonderry,South

  Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East

  Beach, Hn. Michael HughHicks

  Hamilton, Marquess of

  Smith,F.E.(Liverpool, Walton)

  Beckett, Hon. Gervase

  Harrison-Broadley, Col. H. B.

  Starkey, John R.

  Bridgeman, W. Clive

  Hay, Hn. Claude George

  Thomson, W. Mitchell-(Lanark

  Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

  Hervey,F.W.F.(BurySEdm'ds)

  Thornton, Percy M.

  Cave, George

  Hill, Sir Clement (Shrewsbury)

  Valentia, Viscount

  Cavendish,Rt. Hn.Victor C.W.

  Hill, HenryStaveley (Staff'sh.)

  Walrond, Hon. Lionel

  Cecil, Lord John P. Joicey-

  Lane-Fox, G. R.

  Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.)

  Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow)

  Long,Rt. Hn. Walter (Dablin,S.

  Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-

  Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)

  Lyttleton, Rt. Hn. Alfred

  Younger, George

  Craik, Sir Henry

  MacIver, David (Liverpool)

  Doughty, Sir George

  Marks, H. H. (Kent)

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Sir

  Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

  Mason, James F. (Windsor)

  Frederick Banbury and

  Faber, George Denison (York)

  Meysey-Thompson, E. C.

  Mr. Lonsdale.

  Faber, Capt. W. V. (Hants, W.)

  O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens

  Bill read a second time, and committed for to-morrow.

  Resolution to be reported to-morrow.]

  MUSICAL COPYRIGHT BILL.
  Order for Third Reading read.
  *THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE HOME DEPARTMENT (Mr. GLADSTONE, Leeds, W.)appealed to the House to pass the Third Reading of the Bill. His hon. friend the Member for the Scotland division of Liverpool had brought the Bill to this stage, and it was supported by three leaders of Parties in this House. When it had reached the Committee stage the Government intervened and adopted the Bill, because they thought that a serious injustice wm entailed upon composers as the law now stood. It had been said that they had intervened because of the action taken by large; firms. All he could say was that that was not so in his case. For some two years he had felt that grave hardship had been imposed, not upon large and influential firms who were well able to take care of themselves, but upon the composers of songs, especially composers of the best songs, who had been very unfairly dealt with. He might be carried away because of some interest on his part in the musical profession and in the art of music. He must confers that in regard to the Members who offered opposition to this Bill he had not observed that any of them were connected with the musical profession, or, gifted as they were in other respects, endowed with musical talents. It seemed to him that, as he was to some extent associated with the musical profession for many years, he had a particular interest in this question. As the Government had only intervened in support of the Bill at a late stage it was obvious that they were not responsible for the original drafting of the measure. As a matter of fact, they did not intervene until the session was drawing to a close and until the Bill had reached the Committee stage. The Government had considered the matter and were prepared to meet the objections of some of his hon. friends below the Gangway who said that the Bill would have a very drastic effect if it was passed in its present form. He thought his hon. friend in charge of the Bill would not only admit that his Amendments were satisfactory to those hon. Gentlemen, but also recognise their perfect sincerity of purpose in object-
  858
  ing to certain portions of the Bill, and in pointing out certain dangers which might attend the passing of some of its provisions. The Government were prepared to meet the desires and wishes of hon. Members who had put forward reasonable objections to the Bill. They had therefore drawn up Amendments which they had submitted to hon. Gentlemen who had taken a leading part in criticising the Bill. He understood that all the hon. Members were favourably disposed towards those Amendments. They had amended the Bill so that there should be no imprisonment for a first offence. They had also provided that the printer, as well as the hawker, should be liable, and they had limited the power of arrest without warrant. The proposals which they should bring forward in another place were first of all that no proceedings were to be taken in respect of any offence committed before the music was registered at Stationers' Hall, whether the music was published in England or abroad. In the second place, they would propose that no arrest was to be made without the authority of the owner of the copyright, who should give the titles of the copyright works in regard to which infringement was complained of, the particulars being addressed to the chief police inspector of the district. Then to meet the point that a hawker might innocently purchase pirated copyrighted music he proposed another Amendment. The Bill provided that the hawker should prove his innocence, and if he did so he should escape any penalty, and the point of their third proposal was that if no conclusive proof could be adduced either way, and that might happen occasionally or even frequently, the hawker, if it was his first offence, would not be liable to any penalty. The effect of the Amendment would be where there was the printer's and publisher's name upon the music to throw the onus of proof upon the prosecutor. The fourth Amendment was that there should be an appeal to Quarter Sessions. He hoped these Amendments would satisfy hon. Members who opposed the Bill, and that they would now allow it to go through.
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read a second time."
  *MR. J. D. WHITEsaid his opposition to this Bill as it stood was based not on a knowledge of music but on a desire to safeguard the liberties of innocent people. He was opposed to musical piracy as much as anyone, but he held that such new and drastic provisions should be qualified by proper safeguards. He considered that no proceedings should be taken unless the piece of music upon which the prosecution was founded had been registered before the commission of the alleged offence. In the case of music which had first been printed abroad in a country not within the international conventions no copyright could be subsequently obtained here, and yet he had boon informed that in some such cases there had been what was really a bogus claim to copyright. His principal objections to the measure as it stood had been substantially met by the proposals of the right hon. Gentleman the Home Secretary, and he would only suggest that proper facilities should be given to the public to consult the list of prohibited music. In view of what the right hon. Gentleman had said he would not move the Motion standing in his name, but at the same time he expressed no opinion as to how these Amendments would read when put into the Bill, and reserved the right of subsequent criticism.
  *MR. MORTONsaid he had no objection to the Bill itself as a whole. He only opposed the one portion which said that a man must be considered guilty unless he could prove his innocence. That clause ought to be taken out altogether. No Government ought to put into a British Act of Parliament such a clause as that. He expressed the hope that in another place they would take a more enlightened view and delete the clause. If the Government once adopted this retrograde and un-British legislation, and put objectionable clauses of this character into Acts of Parliament, they were bound to come to grief.
  *MR. BYLESsaid that when the Bill first came before the House it was said that there was no objection to it, that in fact everybody was in favour of it. The right hon. Gentleman deserved no credit for the Amendments he
  860
  had moved, and he (Mr. Byles) was willing to let the Bill go through as it was being satisfied that these Amendments had been put in. Those who opposed the Bill, however, were entitled to the credit, and they had been subjected to a good deal of obloquy in the matter. The hon. Member for the Scotland Division of Liverpool had several times said, in trying to get it through, that the Bill was agreed to on all sides. After the critics of the measure had exposed the weakness and mischief that lurked in it men began to read the Bill, and the divisions disclosed the fact that many eminent laywers and old and respected Members of the House were of their way of thinking. He considered that that result and the Amendments made by the Government were a complete justification for their opposition. He was glad to think that the Bill would become law in a condition far less objectionable than when first introduced, though it was not satisfactory even now. He only hoped the Government would take care to induce the Upper House to insert the promised Amendments.
  MR. LUPTONthanked the Secretary of State for the Home Department for having granted some of the Amendments asked for. He desired to put to the right hon. Gentleman a question with reference to the list that the publisher had to send to the police stating the music which was not to be sold by "pirates." He believed it was under-stood that a copy of that list was to be supplied to any member of the public who applied for it.
  *MR. GLADSTONEsaid he should not like to give a definite opinion on the point. He confessed he saw at present no objection to what the hon. Gentleman said, but he would give further consideration to the matter.

  STREET BETTING BILL [LORDS].
  Order for Second Reading read.
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read a second time."
  *MR. BOTTOMLEYsaid he was surprised that the provisions of this Bill had never been explained to the House by any Member of the Government, and he did not see his way two nights in succession blindly to follow His Majesty's Government into the division lobby. He was present in pursuance of that much debated thing called a mandate to resist any legislation of the character contemplated by this Bill. This measure came before the House under these circumstances. A month ago the Home Secretary was approached by a deputation asking him to deal with what was alleged to be the serious evils of street betting. The hon. Gentleman expressed sympathy with the idea, and suggested that somebody should introduce a Bill on the lines of Lord Davey's Bill which was brought in in another place last year, and said that he would be disposed to look favourably upon it. He (Mr. Bottomley) ventured to take up the suggestion and proposed the outline of a Bill which he thought contained all the provisions necessary to stamp out what every man must admit to be an institution which if possible it was most desirable to get out of existence. But his proposal was received with the derision which perhaps his presumption merited. Time passed and other deputations waited upon the right hon. Gentleman, and ultimately an hon. Member introduced a Bill called the Street Betting Bill which after the First Reading was suddenly dropped in favour of the Bill now before the House. This Bill came down from another place, and was the second adopted child of His Majesty's Government. As to whether the right hon. Gentleman felt as much pride in it as in the other he did not know, but he ventured to express some surprise that the strongest Government of all time should find it necessary at the fag end of the session in order to get on the Statute-book some permanent record of its legislative genius, to resort to the expedient of disappointed and desperate women—to adopt a nondescript offspring and thrust it upon the House
  862
  without even giving it a decent christening or any kind of introduction. If the intention of the Government was to stamp out the evil of betting, surely it was strong enough to have dropped the system of instalment legislation in regard to this measure, and to have said that they would grapple with the whole difficulty, suppress it, and make it illegal in every shape and form. He did protest against the hypocritical spirit which underlay a measure of this kind, which asked the public outside to believe that this House was the enemy of all forms of betting, but had no more courage than to put its hand on the man who put his shilling on a horse in the street, leaving the rich and middle-class gambler absolutely free. He heard with a sense of guilt the impeachment of the hon. and learned Member for North Louth when he said that the Liberal Party once in power was more one-sided and more intolerant in its legislation than any Tory Government.
  MR. T. M. HEALY: I said it was easier to get jobs through the Liberal Party.
  *MR. BOTTOMLEYsaid it was another aspect of the same matter. The hon. and learned Gentleman used the phrase that Liberal majorities were in the habit of foisting upon this House measures of a character which hitherto he thought were the prerogative of Tory Governments. The House was to-night asked to pass a Street Betting Bill which could do no possible good. He objected to is first because it was class legislation in its worst form. It touched the little man, and left out the middle-class and big man entirely. He objected to it oven more strongly because it would have no other result than to aggravate the evil. If they removed the little man from the street, agencies would spring up in every workshop and factory in the land. They could not stamp out the instinct of a little gambling excitement in the human breast. There would arise little amateur bookmakers in factories and workshops, bringing facilities and temptations under the very noses of men. As an example, let them take the town of Crewe. There were only two

  863
  bookmakers in that town ten years ago, and they carried on their business as street bookmakers. A mistaken enthusiasm on the part of the authorities drove those men out of existence. There were to-day fifty bookmakers carrying an a lucrative business in Ore we in offices, shops, and works, and the betting going on among the workmen to-day in Crewe was a hundred-fold greater than when two men carried on business in the streets. As regarded the exclusion in favour of betting on racecourses, he might point out that on a big race day, such as the Derby, there was more betting than in the streets and betting offices throughout the year. Yet the Government said that workmen might go to the race-course and bet as much as they liked. To test how thoroughly this matter was understood in the constituency of Clitheroe, the hon. Member for which had opposed his Bill, he got a petition signed by the chief inspector of police, by various other members of the police force, ministers of every denomination; and one Catholic priest made it the text of his sermon and urged his congregation to sign it. The petition lay in the House to-day. There was not a police official whom he had privately consulted, and he had consulted many, who did not say that any such provisions as this Bill contained would not grapple with this evil. He ventured to say that this was another of those blind acts of surrender to Nonconformist and other ecclesiastical influences which told them that they had to put on the Statute-book a lot of puritanical social legislation of this character. [Cries of "No."] He asked the Government to tell the House what was their object in this Bill. If they said that street betting per se constituted the bane of the working men of this country, then they were bound to go a step further and show that suppression of the street bookmaker would remove that danger. In proportion as they removed the street bookmaker from the observation of the police and from places where he could be freely dealt with under by-laws, local Acts, and the general law of the country, they increased the facilities for betting in all the workshops and factories of the land. If the pro-
  864
  moters of the Bill objected to betting; he was surprised that they had not the courage to tackle the whole thing and say that betting altogether should be suppressed. He protested against this method of adopting the legislation of "another place" without receiving any explanatory statement The Bill was not called for; there had been no demand for it. It was never put before any of the constituencies at the late election. It would do harm rather than good. He did not say this with any desire to increase betting facilities among working men. He should like to see every working man give up betting, but it was mere hypocrisy to pretend that he would. He would be no party to a piece of class legislation of this kind. If they suppressed street betting, they would increase the evil indoors where it would be free from public supervision and control. He begged to move "That this Bill be read a second time upon this day six months."
  *MR. CLAUDE HAY, in seconding the Amendment, said the hon. Member for South Hackney had very properly shown that the evils which the promoters of this Bill desired to remove would not really be cured by the provisions of the measure. It was a Bill which made one law for the rich and another for the poor. It was notorious that at this moment there were in the West End of London offices known to the police, and to persons who desired to engage in betting, where betting could be indulged in. If any man in humbler circumstances desired to do that which the rich were allowed to do, he was made to suffer the full penalty of the law. He was not alone in opposing this Bill. Mr. Wharton, who took very great interest in this Bill when it was before Parliament in previous sessions, was satisfied that it would not in any proper fashion cope with the gigantic evil which the promoters of the measure desired to remove. That right hon. Gentleman had wide Parliamentary experience and was well known as a keen and most earnest social reformer. But he submitted that the way in which they should endeavour to reduce street betting was by imposing a fine so heavy that it would not be worth while for the

  865
  bookmaker to pursue his business in the streets. Under this Bill, however, an ignorant and practically an innocent person who had no knowledge of the law nor of the powers of the law might go and bet with a bookmaker in the street and subject himself to very serious penalties. That seemed to him utterly unreasonable, when this ignorant person knew that he was only doing what rich men were doing elsewhere with impunity. The Government by this measure were making one law for the rich in the West End and another law for the poor man in the streets of the East End. This was an attempt to pander to sentimentality and a bit of shop-window dressing for the Nonconformist conscience. The evils connected with betting must be dealt with in a different spirit and by different methods, and therefore he begged to second the Motion.
  Amendment proposed—
  "To leave out the word "now," and at the end of the Question to add the words ' upon this day three months.' "—(Mr Bottomley.)
  Question proposed, "That the word ' now' stand part of the Question."
  *MR. GLADSTONEsaid that the hon. Member for Hoxton had stated that this Bill had been introduced to satisfy the Nonconformist conscience. But what were the real facts? The Bill had come from the House of Lords, and special influence had been brought to bear on himself to forward its progress by a most influential deputation from both Houses of Convocation. The general law with which the authorities had had to deal on this question was that where an obstruction in the street was caused a fine not exceeding £5 could be imposed. There were in many places by-laws providing for the imposition of a fine not exceeding £5 for street betting; and in some large towns it was possible under the provisions of local Acts to inflict heavier penalties for second or subsequent offences. But the present system of fines was wholly insufficient; and some of these betting men snapped their fingers in the face of the police. The magistrates said that this street betting was a great national evil, and he agreed. Every one knew that under the existing law
  866
  there was no power of imprisonment for street betting. The question of dealing with the evil had been under the consideration of a Committee who had gone very thoroughly into the matter, taking a large amount of evidence, and that Committee, which included Lord Davey, Lord Aberdeen, Lord Compton, Lord Durham, Lord James of Hereford, had come to the conclusion that this was an evil that ought to be dealt with by legislation. Hence their Report and this Bill. It had been conclusively proved by inquiry by a House of Lords Committee that the practice of betting in the streets had increased enormously of late years, and had resulted in much evil among the working classes. It appeared that these street bookmakers betted not only with men but with women and children. The Committee recommended, in view of the acknowledged evils which existed, that there should be further legislation, and they also recommended amongst other things that the magistrates should have power to send bookmakers to prison without the option of a fine for inducing boys and youths to gamble. They also recommended that there should be a £10 fine for a first offence, £20 for a second offence, and £50 for any subsequent offence with power to send a bookmaker to prison without the option of a fine. These were the recommendations which the Government had adopted. There were cases given in which one bookmaker had been fined fifty-four times in four years; twenty-one had been fined eighteen times; twenty-six seventeen times; twenty-eight twelve times and so forth. The total number of summary convictions during the last three years in the Metropolitan Police district was no less than 6,263, and the significant fact was that the number of persons convicted only numbered 1,882. In the evidence before the House of Lords Committee the case of a man who was fined £5 was quoted. The man said he hoped the magistrates would not trouble him next time to come to the Court, but he should be happy if fined again to send the £5. The present state of the law was farcical, and the only question was whether this Bill was the right way of dealing with it. If betting men were licensed the House would

  867
  have to make bets recoverable. This Bill was not directed against the poor man's betting at all, and if betting were removed from the streets there were plenty of opportunities for the working man to bet as much as he chose. Let him bet with his friends He was no purist in this matter, but everyone knew the difference between the evils of betting with a bookmaker and backing one's opinion with a friend. They did not wish to interfere with anybody's freedom, but they wished to stop the weaker brother and women and children from ruining themselves. They also wished to save our streets from what they considered a scandal. He should like to abolish betting on racecourses but it was a big question, and must be done by a direct Act of Parliament, and this was a smaller question which they were going to deal with separately by this Bill.
  SIR E. CARSONsaid he was entirely in favour of this Bill, but he desired to see it carried further. What he wished to know was this: If this Bill was carried it had occurred to him that it might be made to apply to bets made by telegraph, and he did not see why it should not. Through the telegraph the Government was made the means of betting all through the country, and received a revenue from it. He hoped, therefore, it would not be going too far if the right hon. Gentleman said that, so far as the Government could do it, betting by telegram should be prohibited. If that were done, he thought they would have gone a great way to make this Bill a success.
  MR. J. W. WILSONsaid that the Committee which considered this Bill had had before them not only this year but last applications and petitions from large towns in the north in favour of these very powers. And, in fact, the powers given by this Bill had been in force during all the present year in Halifax and Accrington. At least three Bills giving these same powers to certain towns had gone through both Houses, and the working classes in those towns had deliberately supported their local bodies in obtaining them. He felt that these
  868
  powers ought to be extended. It was not a question of making a new law, but of making an old law more efficient. He believed that there was no measure before Parliament that would receive such universal acceptance as this, and he was only surprised that such a Bill should have come down year after year from the Lords and never have been taken up by the Government then in power.
  MR. SHACKLETONsaid the Bill before the House was not satisfactory so far as he was concerned. There were no doubt good reasons for Clause 2, but he could assure the House that he and those associated with him were quite as anxious to get at the professional better in the ring as the other. In their opinion the man in the ring was equally guilty. He hoped the right hon. Gentleman would consider the suggestion of the right hon. Member for Trinity College and give effect to it in this Bill. If he did the Labour Party would give him all the support they could. There was no doubt as to the views of the Labour Party in this House. He knew the temptation put in the way of the working men. The working men were as anxious as anybody to deal with the matter. They desired to curtail this evil but not in the way suggested by the hon. Member for South Hackney, by registration, and elevating the betting man to a position of respectability. The object of the hon. Member for South Hackney was to make the bookmaker a respectable tradesman with an open door into his office. The working men were not prepared to do that. What the hon. Gentleman had said about Clitheroe was true, but the paragraph inserted in the paper to which he had referred asking that the bookmaker and other persons connected with betting should, be put under supervision and control was slipped in by a trick.
  *MR. BOTTOMLEY: Has anyone withdrawn his signature?
  MR. SHACKLETONsaid he had received hundreds of postcards from his constituents who said they had signed the petition under a misapprehend on.

  869
  He had heard, from the Temperance Association, the Free Church Council, and many ministers of religion pointing out how they had been "let in." He had the honour of fighting a gentleman on this question at the last election who backed up betting in his address, saying that every man ought to be allowed to put a shilling on a gee-gee. He beat his opponent by over 8,000 votes, which, he took it, was a better record of what his constituency thought about betting than any such trek as he had referred to. He would be prepared to support the Second Reading of this Bill, but on the strict understanding that if there was an opportunity of dealing with street betting in a wider sense he should support it.
  MR. MACVEAGHasked whether the Bill applied to Ireland.
  AN HON. MEMBER: It does.
  MR. LUPTONsaid he had been for many years an ardent opponent of street betting but it was impossible to support this measure. [Cries of "Divide."] If it were right to put down Bilk for discussion at one o'clock in the mornng it was right that they should be discussed at that hour [the further remarks of the hon. Member were rendered inaudible by cries of "Divide" and "Order."]
  MR. CLOUGHrose in his place, and claimed to move, "That the Question be now put."

  NAVY AND ARMY EXPENDITURE, 1904–5.
  Resolutions reported.
  Whereas it appears by the Navy Appropriation Account for the year ended the 31st day of March, 1905, and the statement appended thereto, as follows, viz.:—

  (a) That the gross expenditure for certain Navy Services exceeded the estimate of such expenditure by a total sum of £415,439 18s. 8d., as shown in Column No. 1 of the Schedule hereto appended, while the gross expenditure for other Navy Services fell short of the estimate of such expenditure by a total sum of £449,539 13s. 7d., as shown in Column No. 2 of the said appended Schedule, so that the gross actual expenditure for the whole of the Navy Services fell short of the gross estimated expenditure by the net sum of £34,099 14s. 11d.

  (b) That the receipts in aid of certain Grants for Navy Services fell short of the total estimated receipts by the sum of £80,479 6s. 10d., as shown in Column No. 3 of the said appended Schedule, while the receipts in aid of other Navy Services exceeded the estimate of such receipts by a total sum of £76,198 8s. 9d., as shown in Column No. 4 of the said appended Schedule, so that the total actual receipts in aid of the Grants for Navy Services fell short of the total estimated receipts by the net sum of £4,280 18s. 1d.

  (c) That the resulting differences between the Exchequer Grants for Navy Services and the net expenditure are as follows, viz.:—

  £

  s.

  d.

  Total Surpluses

  455,107

  18

  8

  Total Deficits

  425,289

  1

  10

  Net Surplus

  £29,818

  16

  10

  And whereas the Lords Commissioners of His Majesty's Treasury have temporarily authorised the application, in reduction of the net charge on Exchequer Grants for certain Navy Services, of the whole of the sums received in excess of the estimated Appropriation-in-Aid, in respect of the same Services, and have also temporarily authorised the application of so much of the said total surpluses on certain Grants for Navy Services as

  871
  is necessary to cover the said total deficits on other Grants for Navy Services.

  Schedule

  Number of Vote.

  Navy Services, 1904–5. Votes.

  Gross Expenditure.

  Appropriations in Aid.

  Excesses of Actual over Estimated Gross Expenditure.

  Surpluses of Estimated over Actual Gross Expenditure.

  Deficiencies of Actual as compared with Estimated Receipts.

  Surpluses of Actual as compared with Estimated Receipts.

  1.

  2.

  3.

  4.

  £

  s.

  d.

  £

  s.

  d.

  £

  s.

  d.

  £

  s.

  d.

  1

  Wages, &c., of Officers, Seamen, and Boys, Coast Guard, and Royal Marines

  67,474

  12

  8

  —

  27,310

  2

  9

  —

  2

  Victualling and Clothing for the Navy

  —

  4,869

  8

  7

  —

  13,109

  9

  4

  3

  Medical Establishments and Services

  —

  11,525

  9

  9

  1,689

  19

  2

  —

  4

  Martial Law

  —

  1,094

  17

  11

  3

  17

  10

  —

  5

  Educational Services

  —

  12,944

  6

  2

  —

  3,310

  8

  11

  6

  Scientific Services

  4,167

  15

  5

  —

  —

  8,634

  10

  5

  7

  Royal Naval Reserves

  —

  26,290

  0

  8

  669

  9

  2

  —

  8

  Shipbuilding, Repairs, Maintenance, &c.:

  Sec. 1

  Personnel

  —

  23,824

  18

  8

  —

  803

  14

  6

  Sec. 2

  Materiel

  224,212

  8

  9

  —

  —

  26,823

  8

  1

  Sec. 3

  Contract Work

  —

  279,759

  11

  0

  37,273

  4

  9

  —

  9

  Naval Armaments

  —

  11,028

  19

  9

  —

  19,155

  8

  7

  10

  Works, Buildings and Repairs at Home and Abroad

  —

  78,202

  1

  1

  —

  4,367

  19

  8

  11

  Miscellaneous Effective Services

  82,354

  11

  5

  —

  3,912

  19

  0

  —

  12

  Admiralty Office

  1,751

  7

  1

  —

  —

  2

  9

  3

  13

  Half-Pay, Reserved and Retired Pay

  5,584

  1

  3

  —

  4,103

  10

  6

  —

  14

  Naval and Marine Pensions, Gratuities, and Compassionate Allowances.

  5,604

  12

  10

  —

  5,436

  16

  9

  —

  15

  Civil Pensions and Gratuities

  22,235

  13

  11

  —

  79

  6

  11

  —

  Amount written off as irrecoverable

  2,054

  15

  4

  —

  —

  —

  415,439

  18

  8

  449,539

  13

  7

  80,479

  6

  10

  76,198

  8

  9

  Net Surplus, £34,099 14 11

  Net Deficit, £4,280 18 1

  Whereas it appears by the Army Appropriation Account for the year ended the 31st day of March 1905, and the statement appended thereto, as follows, viz.:—

  (a) That the gross expenditure for certain Army Services exceeded the estimate of such expenditure by a total sum of £256,367 3s. 3d., as shown in Column No. 1 of the schedule hereto appended; while the gross expenditure for other Army Services fell short of the estimate of such expenditure by a total sum of £365,574 5s. 6d., as shown in Column No. 2 of the said appended Schedule; so that the gross actual expenditure for the whole of the Army Services fell short of the gross estimate expenditure by the net sum of£109,207 2s. 3d.

  (b) That the receipts in aid of certain

  1. "That the application of such sums be sanctioned."
  Army Services fell short of the estimate of such receipts by a total sum of £8,475 7s. 10d., as shown in Column No. 3 of the said appended schedule; while the receipts in aid of other Army Services exceeded the estimate of such receipts by a total sum of £383,643 16s. 2d., as shown in Column No. 4 of the said appended Schedule; so that the total actual receipts in aid of the grants for Army Services exceeded the total estimated receipts by the net sum of £375,168 8s. 4d.
  (c) That the resulting differences between the Exchequer Grants for Army Services and the net expenditure are as follows, viz.:—

  £

  s.

  d.

  Total Surpluses

  701,636

  8

  5

  Total Deficits

  217,260

  17

  10

  Net Surplus

  £484,375

  10

  7

  And whereas the Lords Commissioners of His Majesty's Treasury have temporarily authorised the application, in reduction of the net charge on Exchequer Grants for certain Army Services, of the whole of the sums received in excess of the estimated Appropriation-in-Aid in respect of the same Services, and have also temporarily authorised the applica-

  Schedule

  Number of Vote.

  Army Services, 1904–1905. Votes.

  Gross Expenditure.

  Appropriations in Aid.

  Excesses of Actual over Estimated Gross Expenditure.

  Surpluses of Estimated over Actual Gross Expenditure.

  Deficiencies of Actual as compared with Estimated Receipts.

  Surpluses of Actual as compared with Estimated Receipts.

  1.

  2.

  3.

  4.

  £

  s.

  d.

  £

  s.

  d.

  £

  s.

  d.

  £

  s.

  d.

  1

  Pay, &c., of Army (General Staff, Regiments, Reserve, and Departments)

  —

  166,856

  6

  11

  —

  7,751

  1

  11

  2

  Medical Establishments: Pay, &c.

  —

  223

  19

  2

  —

  5,037

  6

  7

  3

  Militia: Pay, Bounty, &c.

  —

  58,279

  1

  9

  2,527

  15

  9

  —

  4

  Imperial Yeomanry: Pay and Allowances

  —

  46,175

  10

  3

  —

  770

  11

  2

  5

  Volunteer Corps: Pay and Allowances

  12,562

  16

  5

  —

  —

  567

  5

  8

  6

  Transport and Remounts

  —

  2,777

  12

  6

  —

  269,809

  12

  1

  7

  Provisions, Forage, and other Supplies

  115,062

  16

  11

  —

  —

  15,128

  14

  8

  8

  Clothing Establishments, and Services

  —

  22,939

  19

  10

  —

  1,968

  3

  8

  9

  Warlike and other Stores: Supply and Repair

  10,285

  12

  6

  —

  —

  31,117

  2

  3

  10

  Works, Buildings, and Repairs: Cost, including Staff for Engineer Services

  —

  33,771

  18

  3

  —

  22,350

  11

  8

  11

  Establishments for Military Education

  2,211

  14

  11

  —

  4,527

  10

  8

  —

  12

  Miscellaneous Effective Services

  7,617

  12

  3

  —

  —

  2,647

  11

  9

  13

  War Office: Salaries and Miscellaneous

  39,458

  7

  8

  —

  1,357

  7

  8

  —

  14

  Non-effective Charges for Officers, &c.

  —

  24,735

  1

  8

  —

  10,133

  15

  7

  15

  Non-effective Charges for Men, &c.

  35,675

  15

  9

  —

  —

  16,361

  19

  2

  16

  Civil Superannuation, Compensation, and Compassionate Allowances

  —

  4,814

  15

  2

  62

  13

  9

  —

  Balances irrecoverable

  33,492

  6

  10

  —

  —

  —

  256,367

  3

  3

  365,574

  5

  6

  8,475

  7

  10

  383,643

  16

  2

  Net Surplus, £109,207 2 3

  Net Surplus, £375,168 8 4

  Surplus surrendered to the Exchequer

  …

  £484,375

  10s.

  7d.

  Resolutions read a second time.
  [First Resolution agreed to.]
  Second Resolution:
  tion of so much of the said total surpluses on certain Grants for Army Services as is necessary to cover the said total deficits on other grants for Army Services.
  2. "That the application of such sums be sanctioned."
  Motion made, and Question put, "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the said Resolution."
  The House divided: Ayes, 156; Noes, 11. (Division List No. 298.)

  AYES.

  Acland, Francis Dyke

  Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight

  Barran, Rowland Hirst

  Alden, Percy

  Barlow, Percy (Bedford)

  Beaumont, W. C. B. (Hexham)

  Armitage, R.

  Barnard, E. B.

  Beck, A. Cecil

  Benn,W.(T'W'r Hamlets,S.Geo.

  Healy, Timothy Michael

  Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek)

  Bertram, Julius

  Hedges, A. Paget

  Price, C.E.(Edinburgh,Central)

  Billson, Alfred

  Helme, Norval Watson

  Radford, G. H.

  Bottomley, Horatio

  Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

  Rainy, A. Holland

  Roulton, A. C. F. (Ramsey)

  Higham, John Sharp

  Redmond, John E. (Waterford)

  Brace, William

  Hobart, Sir Robert

  Renton, Major Leslie

  Bryce, J.A.(Inverness Burghs)

  Hope, W. Bateman(Somerset,N.

  Richards,Thomas (W.Monm'th

  Burns, Rt. Hon. John

  Horniman, Emslie John

  Rickett, J. Compton

  Burnyeat, W. J. D.

  Illingworth, Percy H.

  Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside)

  Byles, William Pollard

  Johnson, W. (Nuneaton)

  Robinson, S.

  Cairns, Thomas

  Jones,William (Carnarvonshire

  Russell, T. W.

  Carr-Gomm, H. W.

  Kekewich, Sir George

  Samuel, Herbert L.(Cleveland)

  Clough, W.

  King, Alfred John (Knutsford)

  Scott,A.H.(Ashton under Lyne

  Coats,Sir T.Glen(Renfrew, W.)

  Limb, Ernest H. (Rochester)

  Seaverns, J. H.

  Cobbold, Felix Thornley

  Lambert, George

  Shackleton, David James

  Condon, Thomas Joseph

  Lamont, Norman

  Shaw, Rt. Hon. T.(Hawick B.)

  Corbett,C.H.(Sussex,E.Grinst'd

  Leese,Sir Joseph F.(Accrington

  Sheehy, David

  Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.

  Lever,A.Levy (Essex,Harwich)

  Shipman, Dr. John G.

  Cowan, W. H.

  Levy, Maurice

  Silcock, Thomas Ball

  Cox, Harold

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Simon, John Allsebrook

  Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth)

  Lough, Thomas

  Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie

  Cullinan, J.

  Lundon, W.

  Smyth, Thomas F.(Leitrim, S.)

  Davies, Timothy (Fulham)

  Lupton, Arnold

  Stanley,Hn. A. Lyulph (Chesh.)

  Duckworth, James

  Lyell, Charles Henry

  Strachey, Sir Edward

  Dunn, A. Edward (Camborne)

  Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester)

  Strauss, E. A. (Abingdon)

  Dunne,Major E.Martin(Walsall

  MacVeagh, Jeremiah (Down, S.

  Stuart, James (Sunderland)

  Edwards, Clement (Denbigh)

  MacVeigh,Charles (Donegal,E.)

  Sullivan, Donal

  Edwards, Frank (Radnor)

  M'Kenna, Reginald

  Sutherland, J. E.

  Elibank, Master of

  M'Killop, W.

  Taylor, John W. (Durham)

  Everett, R. Lacey

  Mansfield, H. Randall (Lincoln)

  Thomas,Sir A.(Glamorgan, E.)

  Fenwick, Charles

  Marks, G.Croydon (Launceston)

  Thompson, J.W.H.(Somerset,E

  Ferens, T.R.

  Menzies, Walter

  Tomkinson, James

  Ferguson, R. C. Munro

  Micklem, Nathaniel

  Toulmin, George

  Fiennes, Hon. Eustace

  Mond, A.

  Verney, F. W.

  Findlay, Alexander

  Montagu, E. S.

  Walsh, Stephen

  Flavin, Michael Joseph

  Montgomery, H. G.

  Watt, H. Anderson

  Fuller, John Michael F.

  Mooney, J. J.

  White, George (Norfolk)

  Gill, A. H.

  Morgan, G. Hay (Cornwall)

  White, J. D. (Dumbartonshire)

  Gladstone,Rt.Hn. Herbert John

  Morse, L. L.

  Whitehead, Rowland

  Glendinning, R. G.

  Murphy, John

  Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

  Glover, Thomas

  Nicholls, George

  Williams, J. (Glamorgan)

  Goddard, Daniel Ford

  Nicholson,CharlesN.(Doncast'r

  Williams,Llewelyn(Carmarth'n

  Griffith, Ellis J.

  Nolan, Joseph

  Wilson, Henry J. (York, W.R.)

  Gulland, John W.

  Norman, Henry

  Wilson, J.W.(Worcestersh, N.)

  Hardie,J.Keir(Merthyr Tydvil)

  Norton, Capt. Cecil William

  Winfrey, R.

  Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale)

  O'Brien,Kendal(Tipperary Mid

  Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth)

  O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr.

  Haworth, Arthur A.

  O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)

  Whiteley and Mr. J. A.

  Hayden, John Patrick

  O'Donnell, C. J. (Walworth)

  Pease.

  Hazel, Dr. A. E.

  O'Grady, J.

  Hazleton, Richard

  O'Mara, James

  NOES.

  Arkwright, John Stanhope

  Hill,Henry Staveley (Staff'sh.)

  Thomson,W. Mitchell-(Lanark)

  Banbury;Sir Frederick George

  Marks, H. H. (Kent)

  Forster, Henry William

  Pease,Herbert Pike(Darlington

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Sir

  Gibbs, G. A. (Bristol, West)

  Sloan, Thomas Henry

  George Doughty and Mr.

  Gordon, J.(Londonderry,South

  Starkey, John R.

  Claude Hay.

  Bill read a second time, and committed for to-morrow.

  PUBLIC WORKS LOANS BILL.
  Order for Second Reading read.
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read a second time."
  MR. T. M. HEALYsaid that some parts of the Bill were obscure. He did not see why the Bill should be so drafted that it was necessary to read it four or live times in order to get at the meaning.
  MR. STAVELEY HILLsaid this was a measure which ought to receive greater discussion than could be given to it at this hour (2 a.m.). It might involve a large expenditure of money, and if greater facilities were given to municipal authorities to obtain loans, it would mean an increase in the rates. He moved, "That this Bill be read a second time upon this day three months."
  SIR F. BANBURY, in seconding the Amendment, said he did not think that a Bill dealing with £3,500,000 should be brought forward at this hour without explanation, and allowed to pass without discussion of any kind. What were hon. Gentlemen opposite for? Why were they paid high salaries? Not to come down with Bills and give the House no explanation of them. This was not the way to expedite business.
  Amendment proposed—
  878
  "To leave out the word ' now,' and at the end of the Question to add the words ' upon this day three months.' "—(Mr. Staveley Hill.)
  Question proposed, "That the word ' now ' stand part of the Question."
  MR. CLAUDE HAYsaid that huge sums of money had already been voted at this sitting without explanation. Why should a certain number of persons, under one of the provisions of this measure, be exempted from the ordinary duty of meeting their liabilities in connection with the principal and interest of loans? He represented a very poor district, and he certainly claimed the same exemption for it. It was the business of the Minister in charge of a Bill to give some explanation of it, especially at this hour of ten minutes past two in the morning. It was recognised even by the Members below the Gangway that they did not understand the meaning of Clause 3.
  THE FINANCIAL SECRETARY TO THE TREASURY (Mr. MCKENNA,)said that it was absolutely necessary to get this Bill through before the 4th August. The hon. Member for the City of London must, at least, understand the meaning of Clause 3, because he recollected the hon. Baronet being present when an identical Bill was presented by the last Government; and no one who had the City experience of the hon. Gentleman was likely to misunderstand what the Bill or any clause of it meant. If this Bill was

  879
  not passed it would cause great loss to local authorities because the latter would have to pay a higher rate of interest for the money which they wished to borrow. This was, in fact, a Bill which was passed every year.
  Question put—
  The House proceeded to a Division.
  MR. SPEAKERstated that he thought the Ayes had it, and, on his decision being challenged, it appeared to him that the Division was vexatiously claimed, and he accordingly called upon the Members who supported and who challenged his decision successively to rise in their places, and he declared the Ayes had it, eight members only who challenged his decision having stood up

  SOLICITORS BILL.
  Considered in Committee.
  (In the Committee.)
  [Mr. EMMOTT (Oldham) in the Chair.]
  MR. CLAUDE HAYmoved to Report progress upon the ground that the Bill ought to be discussed at amore convenient opportunity.
  Motion made, and Question, "That
  880
  the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again," put, and negatived.
  Bill reported without Amendment; read the third time, and passed.

  LOCAL GOVERNMENT (IRELAND) ACT (1898) AMENDMENT BILL.
  Read a second time, and committed to-morrow.

  PUBLIC WORKS LOANS [REPAYMENT.]
  Considered in Committee.
  (In the Committee.)
  Resolved, That it is expedient to authorise the extension of time for the repayment of a loan made by the Public Works Loan Commissioners to the South Staffordshire Mines Drainage Commissioners, in pursuance of any Act of the present Session, to grant money for the purpose of certain Local Loans out of the Local Loans Fund, and for other purposes relating to Local Loans.—(Mr. McKenna.)
  Resolutions to be reported this day.
  Whereupon Mr. Speaker adjourned the House without Question put, pursuant to the Order of the House of the 13th July.
  Adjourned at half after Two o'clock.