Commons Sitting of 4 July 1906

Preamble
The House met at a quarter before Three of the Clock.

PRIVATE BILL BUSINESS.
Kettering Water Bill. Lords' Amendments considered, and agreed to.
Kingston-upon-Hull Corporation Bill. As amended, considered. Ordered, That Standing Orders 223 and 243 be suspended, and that the Bill be now read the third time.—(The Chairman of Ways and Means.) King's Consent signified.)
Bill read the third time and passed.
Folkestone, Sandgate, and Hythe Tramways Bill [Lords]. Read a second time, and committed.
Nettlebed and District Commons (Preservation) Bill [Lords]. To be read a second time To-morrow.
Ritz Hotel, Limited, Bill [Lords]. Read a second time, and committed.
London and India Docks and Millwall Dock Companies Bill. [Order March 5th] that the London and India Docks and Millwall Dock Companies Bill be committed, read, and discharged. Bill withdrawn. —(Mr. Caldwell.)
Sutton District Water Bill. Reported; Report to lie upon the Table.
Hammersmith, City, and North East London Railway Bill. Order read, for resuming Adjourned Debate on Question [July 3rd], "That the Promoters of the Hammersmith. City, and North East London Railway Bill which has been introduced into this House in the present session of Parliament shall have leave to suspend any further proceedings thereon in order to proceed with the same Bill, if they shall think fit, in the next session of Parliament, provided that notice of their intention to do so be lodged in the Private Bill Office not later than six o'clock on the day prior to the close of the present session, and that all fees

3
due thereon up to that period be paid: That the money deposited in accordance with the Standing Orders of this House in respect of such Bill may thereupon be returned to the depositors: That the Promoters of such Bill may, on or before December 31st next, deposit in the Private Bill Office an Estimate, signed by the person making the same, of the expense of the undertaking under the Bill, and, previously to January 15th next, deposit a sum not less than than five per cent. on the amount of such Estimate with the Paymaster-General: That such Bill shall be referred to the Examiners, who shall certify whether or not the Promoters have made such deposit with the Paymaster-General, and, upon the Examiners certifying that such deposit has been made, that the proceedings on such Bill shall be pro forma only in regard to all other stages through which the same shall have passed in the present Session and no new fees shall be charged in regard to such stages: That such Bill shall be deposited in the Private Bill Office not later than six o'clock on or before the third day on which the House shall sit in the next session of Parliament, with a declaration annexed thereto signed by the agent stating that the Bill is the same in every respect as the Bill at the last stage of the proceedings thereon in this House in the present session. That if the money deposited in the present session, as required by Standing Order No. 57, in respect of such Bill has not been withdrawn as provided for by the preceding resolutions a certificate of that fact from the proper officer of the court in which such money was deposited shall accompany such declaration, and such Bill shall not be referred to the Examiners: That such Bill, indorsed by one of the Clerks in the Private Bill Office as having been duly deposited with such declaration and such certificate, if any, annexed, be laid by one of the Clerks of that Office upon the Table of the House in the next session of Parliament: That such Bill, so laid upon the Table, shall be deemed to have been read a first time: That the Standing Orders by which the proceedings on Bills are regulated shall not apply to such Bill in regard to any of the stages through which the same shall have passed during the present session: That all Petitions presented in the present session against
4
such Bill shall stand referred to the Committee on the Bill in the next session of Parliament, and that all Notices and grounds of objections to the right of Petitioners to be heard, given in the present session within the time prescribed ,by the Rules of the Referees relating to such Notices, shall be held applicable in the next session of Parliament: That no Petitioners shall be heard before the Committee on such Bill unless their Petition shall have been presented within the time limited in the present session or in respect of which Standing Order No. 128 has been dispensed with in the present session, or unless their Petition shall be presented on or before February 12th, 1907."—(The Chairman of Ways and Means.)
Question again proposed.
MR. MORTON (Sutherland)said that if he could have an assurance that the passing of this Standing Order would not give this scheme any advantage over its rivals next year, he would withdraw his objection.
THE CHAIRMAN OF WAYS AND MEANS (Mr. EMMOTT,)replied that he could give that assurance, and the last paragraph of the Motion had been framed so as to ensure that.
Question put, and agreed to.
Ordered, That the Promoters of the Hammersmith, City, and North East London Railway Bill which has been introduced into this House in the present session of Parliament shall have leave to suspend any further proceedings thereon in order to proceed with the same Bill, if they shall think fit, in the next session of Parliament, provided that notice of their intention to do so be lodged in the Private Bill Office not later than six o'clock on the day prior to the close of the present session and that all fees due thereon up to that period be paid.
That the money deposited in accordance with the Standing Orders of this House in respect of such Bill may there-upon be returned to the depositors.
That the promoters of such Bill may, on or before the 31st day of December next, deposit in the Private Bill Office an estimate, signed by the person making

5
the same, of the expense of the undertaking under the Bill, and, previously to the 15th day of January next, deposit a sum not less than 5 per cent, on the amount of such estimate with the Paymaster-General.
That such Bill shall be referred to the examiners, who shall certify whether or not the promoters have made such deposit with the Paymaster General, and, upon the examiners certifying that such deposit has been made, that the proceedings on such Bill shall be pro forma only in regard to all other stages through which the same shall have passed in the present session, and no new fees shall be charged in regard to such stages.
That such Bill shall be deposited in the Private Bill Office not later than six o'clock on or before the third day on which the House shall sit in the next session of Parliament, with a declaration annexed thereto signed by the agent stating that the Bill is the same in every respect as the Bill at the last stage of the proceedings thereon in this House in the present session.
That if the money deposited in the present session, as required by Standing Order No. 57, in respect of such Bill has not been withdrawn as provided for by the preceding resolutions a certificate of that fact from the proper officer of the court in which such money was deposited shall accompany such declaration, and such Bill shall not be referred to the Examiners.
That such Bill, indorsed by one of the Clerks in the Private Bill Office as having been duly deposited with such declaration and such certificate, if any, annexed, be laid by one of the Clerks of that Office upon the Table of the House in the next, session of Parliament.
That such Bill, so laid upon the Table, shall be deemed to have been read as first time.
That the Standing Orders by which the proceedings on Bills are regulated shall not apply to such Bill in regard to any of the stages through which the same shall have passed during the present session.
That all Petitions presented in the present session against such Bill shall stand referred to the Committee on the Bill in the next session of Parliament, and that all notices and grounds of ob-
6
jections to the right of Petitioners to be heard, given in the present session within the time prescribed by the Rules of the Referees relating to such Notices, shall be held applicable in the next session of Parliament.
That no Petitioners shall be heard before the Committee on such Bill unless their Petition shall have been presented within the time limited in the present session or in respect of which Standing Order No. 128 has been dispensed with in the present session, or unless their Petition shall be presented on or before the 12th day of February, 1907.
Ordered, That this Order be a Standing Order of the House.
Ordered, That a message be sent to the Lords to acquaint them therewith and desire their concurrence. —(The Chairman of Ways and Means.)

PETITIONS.
  EDUCATION (ENGLAND AND WALES) BILL.
  Petitions against: from Adwell and South Weston; Ancroft; Aston Rowant; Britwell Salome and Britwell Prior; Chinnor; Cuxham and Easington: Ewelrae; Lewknor; Pishill; Pyrton; Stoke Talmage, Clare and Wheatfield; Sydenham (Oxford); and Watlington; to lie upon the Table.
  EDUCATION (ENGLAND AND WALES) BILL (RELIGIOUS TEACHING.)
  Petitions against alteration of Law: from Abberton; Cartmel; and Darley (two); to lie upon the Table.
  EDUCATION (PROVISION OF MEALS) (SCOTLAND) BILL.
  Petition from Govan, in favour; to lie upon the Table.
  JUVENILE SMOKING BILL.
  Petition from Govan, in favour; to lie upon the Table.
  LIQUOR TRAFFIC LOCAL VETO (SCOTLAND) BILL.
  Petition from Glasgow, in favour; to lie upon the Table.
  POISONS AND PHARMACY BILL [LORDS.]
  Petitions for alteration: from Birkenhead; Doncaster; Hull (two); Lewisham; and West Ham (two); to lie upon the Table.
  TRADES UNIONS AND TRADE DISPUTES BILL.
  Petition from Aberdeen, for alteration; to lie upon the Table.
  VAGRANT CHILDREN BILL.
  Petition from Ulverston, in favour; to lie upon the Table.

  RETURNS, REPORTS, ETC.
  TRADE REPORTS (ANNUAL SERIES).
  Copy presented, of Diplomatic and Consular Report, Annual Series, No. 3663 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.

  COMPANIES (WINDING UP).
  Copy presented, of Fifteenth General Annual Report by the Board of Trade [by Act]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 232].
  SUPERANNUATIONS.
  Copy presented, of Treasury Minute, dated June 28th, 1904, declaring that for the due and efficient discharge of the duties of the office of Keeper of the National Gallery of British Art at Mill-bank, professional or other peculiar qualifications not ordinarily to be acquired on the Public Service are required [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.
  SUPERANNUATION ACT, 1884.
  Copy presented, of Treasury Minute, dated 'June 28th, 1906, declaring that Leonardo de Santo, Foreman, His i Majesty's Office of Works, Constantinople, was appointed without a Civil Service Certificate through inadvertence on the part of the Head of his Department [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.
  BOARD OF EDUCATION.
  Copy presented, of List of Boroughs and Urban Districts in England and Wales with a population of 5,000 and upwards in which there are no Council Schools [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
  TRAINING COLLEGES FOR ELEMENTARY TEACHERS.
  Return presented, relative thereto [ordered March 20th; Dr. Macnamara]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 233].
  DOGS REGULATION (IRELAND) ACT, 1865
  Account presented, of the Receipts and Expenditure under the Act for the year 1905 [by Act]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 234].
  FINES, ETC. (IRELAND).
  Copy presented, of Abstract of Accounts of Fines accounted for by the Registrar of Petty Sessions Clerks for 1904 [by Act]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 235].
  PAPER LAID UPON THE TABLE BY THE CLERK OF THE HOUSE.
  Lunacy, Copy of Return to the Lord Chancellor of the number of visits made and the number of patients seen by the several Commissioners in Lunacy during the six months ending on the 30th June, 1906 [by Act.].
QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS CIRCULATED WITH THE VOTES.

  " Britannia " Cadets—Instructions in handling Open Boats under Sails, etc.
  CAPTAIN FABER: To ask the Secretary to the Admiralty whether, considering the fact that no persons already exist to teach the " Britannia" cadets cither how to work tides, or board vessels from sailing boats, or how to handle open boats under sail, he would consider the advisability of engaging two watermen to teach the cadets these subjects.
  {Answered by Mr. Edmund Robertson.) It is not considered advisable to adopt the course suggested by the hon. Member.

  The Hague Conference and Naval Expenditure.
  MR. THOMASSON): To ask the Secretary to the Admiralty whether, in view of the impending meeting of a second peace conference at the Hague, and the probable discussion at that conference of the question of the

  9
  limitation of naval expenditure, in regard to which complete comparative figures are not available, he will take steps to obtain a Return of the naval expenditure of the various Powers that will meet at the Hague, showing the total naval expenditure in each of the last ten years of the various Powers, and their expenditure, in each of the years named, on naval construction.
  (Answered by Mr. Edmund Robertson.) The Admiralty would have no objection to grant a Return of the naval expenditure of the principal maritime Powers, so far as this can be ascertained, if the hon. Member will take the usual steps to move for it.

  Evening Delivery of Letters in Caithness shire.
  MR. K. L. HARMSWORTH: To ask the Postmaster-General whether he is aware that during the past few years letters were delivered every evening throughout the summer months in the Mill of Mey district, in Caithness, but that now this arrangement has been discontinued, and letters are not delivered until the morning following their arrival at the post office at Scarfskerry, distant about a mile to two miles from the district mentioned; and whether he will give instructions that the letters will in future be delivered in the evening during the summer months in the same way as formerly,
  (Answered by Mr. Sydney Buxton.) I have called for a Report on this subject, and on its receipt I will communicate with the hon. Member.

  Vagrancy—Recommendations of Commission.
  MR. BEODIE: To ask the President of the Local Government Board what steps are being taken to carry into effect the recommendations of the Report of the Departmental Committee on Vagrancy; whether it is possible to carry these recommendations into effect entirely by administrative action; and whether, if legislation is necessary to ensure the adoption of any of the recommendations, such legislation is in contemplation.
  (Answered by Mr. John Burns.) I am in communication with my light hon. friend
  10
  the Home Secretary with regard to the recommendations of the Committee. Legislation would be necessary to give effect to some of these recommendations, but it is not intended to propose legislation on the subject during the present session.

  Locomotives on Highways.
  MR. J. HOPE: To ask the President of the Board of Trade whether, in view of the increase of the use of motor-cars on the highways, and the fact of the Law allowing these locomotives to proceed with only one man in charge, will he consider the advisability of removing the present restriction which requires a third man to walk or run in front of traction engines, seeing that the cost of this man is a tax on agriculturists when employing these engines for threshing and other purposes.
  (Answered by Mr. John Burns.) My right hon. friend has asked me to reply to this Question. The requirement referred to is prescribed by Statute, and consequently could only be altered by legislation. I have caused the point to be noted, but it would not be practicable for the Government to propose legislation on the subject during the present session.

  Indian Educational Appointments.
  DR. HAZEL: To ask the Secretary of State for India, in view of the fact that the appointments of Mr. E Candlor to the principalship of the Hooghly College in Bengal, and of Mr. W. Home to an inspectorship of schools in the same province, are temporary ones made during the absence on leave of the permanent holders, will he say what were the educational posts these gentlemen were holding at the time of their appointment to the Indian educational service; what is the length of time during which they have been appointed to act; and who are the permanent incumbents of the posts under Government which they hold.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Morley.) I understand that, at the time of his appointment to his present post Mr. Candler was tutor in the family of an Indian nobleman, Mr. Horne was tutor to the sons of the Lieutenant-Governor of

  11
  Bengal, they had previously held scholastic posts in India and in Scotland respectively. Mr. Candler and Mr. Horne are officiating for Mr. N. L. Hallward and Mr. H. R. James, who have been granted leave, the former for twelve and the latter for eighteen months.

  Hours of Labour of Women and Young Persons in Textile Mills—India.
  MR. GILL: To ask the Secretary of State for India whether any steps are being taken to secure a reduction in the hours of labour of women and young persons in the textile mills in India; and whether he has arranged with the Government of India to invite a British factory inspector to investigate and report on the actual condition of the workers in the mills situated in the Bombay Presidency, as suggested in his reply to a deputation which waited upon him on March 14th last.
  {Answered by Mr. Secretary Morley.) The subject of the conditions of labour in Indian mills is at present under inquiry by the local governments. I think it advisable to await the completion of these inquiries, but I do not expect to alter my opinion as to the suggestion referred to.

  Executive and Judicial Functions in India.
  MR. WEIR: To ask the Secretary of State for India, in view of the recent disturbances at Barisal, if he will state whether he has yet come to a decision as to the advisability of terminating the existing union of executive and judicial functions in the same person; and will he state what steps he proposes to take to ensure the better administration of law in India.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Morley.) As I promised in answer to a Question on May 24th, † I have drawn the attention of the Government of India to the subject of the separation of executive and judicial functions, and I propose to await their reply. The hon. Member may rest assured that any measures for improving the administration of the law in India are receiving full consideration, but I cannot at present make any statement on the subject.
  See (4) Debates, clvii., 1415.

  Execution in India—Appeals.
  MR. WEIR: To ask the Secretary of State for India if he will state whether the Lieutenant-Governor, by whose orders an Indian prisoner was recently executed, has been censured for giving orders for the sentence to be carried out when sufficient time had not elapsed for an answer to the man's appeal to be received; and will he state whether he proposes to give instructions that no execution of a condemned prisoner is to be effected whilst an answer to an appeal is pending.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Morley.) I shall be prepared to make a statement regarding this case as soon as I have full information. I am at present in communication with the Government of India on the subject.

  Boycott of British Goods in Bengal.
  MR. WEIR: To ask the Secretary of State for India whether he is able to state to what extent the boycott movement in Bengal has affected the importation of British goods; and whether the Lieutenant-Governor of Eastern Bengal continues to prohibit in certain districts the singing of the hymn Bande Mataram, or Hail Motherland, and still orders the punishment of school boys for singing the hymn.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Morley.) The statistics of imports into Bengal show no decline in trade with the United Kingdom, the imports of cotton goods for April, 1906, having been considerably in excess of those for the same months in 1904 and 1905. As to the cry of " Bande Mataram," the intention of the local government is that it should not be prohibited except where it disturbs public worship or would cause such feeling in the Mahomedan population as would be likely to lead to breach of the peace. I am not aware that these instructions have been exceeded.

  Vaccination of Recruits for the Swiss Army.
  MR. LUPTON: To ask the Secretary of State for War if he will inform the House whether the compulsory vaccination or re-vaccination of recruits in the Swiss Army was abolished in 1882; and, if so, whether this recognition of conscientious objection

  13
  in that Army has boon followed by any increased susceptibility to small pox among the soldiers.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Haldane.) The compulsory vaccination of recruits in the Swiss Army was abolished in December, 1882. Recruits who desire to be re-vaccinated are allowed to submit to this operation at the public expense. I have no data which would enable me to answer the second part of the Question, but I may point out that the Swiss Army is only called out for eleven days' training in the year, and a comparison of results is therefore rendered very difficult.

  Indian Law Students and the Inns of Court Rifle Volunteers.
  MR. HART-DAVIES: To ask the Secretary of State for War on what grounds Indian law students are prohibited from joining the Inns of Court Volunteers; whether he has sanctioned this restriction; and whether he proposes to take any steps to remove this disability, which affects a considerable class of loyal British subjects.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Haldane.) Indian law students are not prohibited from becoming members of the 14th Middlesex (Inns of Court) Rifle Volunteers, but it has always been the practice in the corps to endeavour to avoid taking recruits who only intend remaining in this country for so short a time as is entailed by their preparation for a call to the English Bar.

  Destruction of Army Emergency Rations.
  MR. C. E. PRICE: To ask the Secretary of State for War whether orders have been issued for the destruction of emergency rations (tinned food) held in the London District Command; and, if so, whether these orders apply to food tinned in this country.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Haldane.) The emergency rations held in the London District have been destroyed, having deteriorated and become unfit for issue. They consisted of cocoa and pemmican and were manufactured for the South
  14
  service and will not keep in good condition for more than a few years. They were tinned in this country.

  Suggested Loan by the Government of Rifles and Morris Tubes to Civilian Rifle Clubs.
  CAPTAIN KINCAID SMITH: To ask the Secretary of State for War whether he would sanction the loan of a limited number of service rifles free of charge, fitted with Morris tubes, to village rifle clubs showing a reasonable membership and under responsible management.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Haldane.) The loan of rifles and Morris tubes to rifle clubs would involve very large issues, which could not, I regret to say, be met out of the stocks at present in hand.

  Salaries of Irish National School Teachers.
  MR. SLOAN: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether the salaries of national school teachers are at present under revision; and, if so, when will the now scale be issued.
  (Answered by Mr. Bryce.) The salaries of national school teachers are not at present under revision, but, as I have already stated, the subject is to receive consideration. I cannot make any further statement in the matter at present.

  Labour Recruitment in the Lake Province of British Central Africa.
  MR. REES: To ask the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether the Lake Province of British Central Africa will now be placed upon the same footing as regards labour recruitment as the southern provinces of the protectorate.
  (Answered by Mr. Churchill.) The Secretary of State is not aware of any reason for removing the safeguards prescribed by ordinance for the employment of labourers from the Lake Province, who require more careful handling than those of the rest of the British Central Africa protectorate; but he is prepared to ask the Commissioner for his views on the subject, if the hon. Member presses the matter.

  Italian Import Duties.
  MR. ARMITAGE: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he will give the present duties on machinery and bar iron going into Italy from Germany and the United Kingdom.

  Tariff Classification.

  Tariff rates of duty.

  English equivalents

  Lire.

  s.

  d.

  Steam engines, fixed, without boilers

  100 kilogs.

  12.00

  Cwt.

  4

  10½

  Steam engines, semi-fixed, with boilers

  100 kilogs.

  12.00

  Cwt

  4

  10½

  Hot air, compressed air, gas, and petroleum motors and rotary motors

  100 kilogs,

  12.00

  Cwt

  4

  10½

  Boilers:

  Multitubular

  100 kilogs,

  14.00

  Cwt

  5

  8¼

  Others, including boilers of the Galloway system

  100 kilogs

  12.00

  Cwt

  4

  10½

  Hydraulic, and water or wind motors (turbines, hydraulic wheels, pulso-meters, pumps and elevators, presses. accumulators, lifts, hydraulic lifts, & c)

  100 kilogs

  10.00

  Cwt

  4

  0¾

  Locomotives, without tenders

  100 kilogs

  14.00

  Cwt

  5

  8¼

  Traction engines, locomobiles

  100 kilogs

  12.00

  Cwt

  4

  10½

  Marine machinery

  100 kilogs

  12.00

  Cwt

  4

  10½

  Haymaking machinery

  100 kilogs

  4.00

  Cwt

  1

  7½

  Agricultural machinery, other

  100 kilogs

  9.00

  Cwt

  3

  8

  Spinning machines

  100 kilogs

  6.00

  Cwt

  2

  5¼

  Machines and looms for weaving

  100 kilogs

  6.00

  Cwt

  2

  5¼

  Looms for hosiery

  100 kilogs

  7.00

  Cwt

  2

  10¼

  Machine tools for working wood and metal (saws, planes, lathes, drills, machines for wirework, & c,)

  100 kilogs

  9.00

  Cwt

  3

  8

  Sewing machines, with or without stands

  100 kilogs

  25.00

  Cwt

  10

  2

  Knitting machines (manual or power) with or without stands

  100 kilogs

  8.00

  Cwt

  3

  3

  Machines and apparatus for the manufacture of paper and of paper pulps

  100 kilogs

  6.00

  Cwt

  2

  5¼

  Milling machines

  100 kilogs

  6.00

  Cwt

  2

  5¼

  Pumps for liquid manure with galvanised pipes

  100 kilogs

  4.00

  Cwt

  1

  7½

  Machinery other than dynamo-electrical not especially mentioned

  100 kilogs

  10.00

  Cwt

  4

  0¾

  Detached parts of machines other than dynamo-electrical

  100 kilogs

  30 00

  Cwt

  12

  2

  Of sewing machines:

  100 kilogs

  30,00

  Cwt

  12

  2

  Of other machines:

  Iron or steel parts of the machines mentioned in the footnote,* also cards without card furniture, and Jacquard and ratiere mechanism, imported separately

  100 kilogs

  10.00

  Cwt

  4

  0¾

  Aluminium parts of machines

  100 kilogs

  20.00

  Cwt

  8

  1½

  Scrapers (doctors) of steel or composition metal for textile printing machine

  100 kilogs

  7.00

  Cwt

  2

  10¼

  Other parts of machines

  100 kilogs

  11.00

  Cwt

  4

  5¾

  (Answered by Mr. Lloyd-George.) The following statement gives the particulars asked for. Imports into Italy from Germany and United Kingdom pay the same rates of duty:—

  Tariff classification.

  Tariff rates of duty.

  English equivalents.

  Lire

  s.

  d.

  Apparatus for heating, refining, distilling, & c.

  100 kilogs.

  18.00

  Cwt

  7

  7¾

  Dynamo-electric machines:

  Weighing up to 1,000 kilogs.

  100 kilogs.

  25,00

  Cwt

  10

  2

  Weighing more than 1,000 kilogs.

  100 kilogs.

  16.00

  Cwt

  6

  6

  Transformers, with or without oil

  100 kilogs.

  25.00

  Cwt

  10

  2

  The undermentioned machines* actuated by dynamos and forming a. single entity with them (provided that the motor does not predominate in weight in the entire article):

  Weighing up to 1,000 kilogs.

  100 kilogs.

  19.00

  Cwt

  7

  8½

  Weighing more than 1,000 kilogs.

  100 kilogs.

  13.00

  Cwt

  5

  3½

  Tension regulators, switches, resistances, interrupters, commutators, controllers, speed regulators, cut-offs, & c.:

  Weighing up to 100 kilogs.

  100 kilogs.

  30.00

  Cwt

  12

  2

  Weighing more than 100 kilogs.

  100 kilogs.

  25.00

  Cwt

  10

  2

  Detached parts of dynamo-electric machines and of transformers:

  Of iron or steel and weighing more than 1,000 kilogs. each

  100 kilogs.

  16.00

  Cwt

  6

  6

  Other

  100 kilogs.

  25.00

  Cwt

  10

  2

  Accumulators and metallic parts thereof

  100 kilogs.

  16.00

  Cwt

  6

  6

  Iron and steel, hammered or rolled in bars of any section, including bars of tempered steel:

  Not having in section any diameter or side of seven millimetres or less

  100 kilogs.

  6.00

  Cwt

  2

  5¼

  Having in section one or more sides or diameters of seven millimetres or less, but exceeding five millimeters

  100 kilogs.

  7.00

  Cwt

  2

  10¼

  Having in section one or more sides or diameters of five millimetres or less

  100 kilogs.

  9.00

  Cwt

  3

  8

  Suggested Reorganisation of the Sanitary and Medical Staff of the Island of Lewis.
  MR. WEIR: To ask the Secretary for Scotland, having regard to the remarks contained on page 56 of the recently issued Report of the Local Government Board for Scotland, relative to the sanitary condition of the Island of Lewis, will he state whether any steps have yet
  been taken with a view to conform to tin Board's suggestion in regard to the re-organisation of the medical and sanitary staff.
  (Answered by Mr. Sinclair.) The subject is under anxious consideration, but I am unable to make any statement in regard to it at present
  * These are: steam engines, fixed, without boiler; steam engines, semi-fixed, with boiler; hot air, compressed air, gas, and petroleum motors (including rotary motors), all weighing more than 300 kilogs.; hydraulic machinery and water motors; haymaking machinery; fruit and grape presses; spinning machinery; machines and looms for weaving; hosiery looms; knitting machines; refrigerating machines; aerated water machines; paper
  18
  cutting or perforating machines; brickmaking machines; pneumatic machines for industrial purposes; polishing machines; ventilators with mechanical movements; machines for bleaching and dyeing; machines for the manufacture of alimentary pastes; transmission gearing; machines and apparatus for the manufacture of paper and paper pulp; machines for mills; pumps for liquid manure, with, galvanised pipes.

  Trunk Telephone Connection between Limerick and Tralee.
  MR. O'SHAUGHNESSY: To ask the Postmaster-General if he can say whether he will see his way to connect the trunk telephone system between Limerick and Tralee viâ Rathkeale, Newcastle West, Abbeyfeale, and Listowel; and, if so, on what terms will he do so.
  (Answered by Mr. Sydney Buxton.) Arrangements have been made for the connection of Tralee with the trunk wire system by means of a line to Killarney. It would not be possible to serve by a single trunk line the other towns mentioned in the Question, but I will consider the terms on which a telephone service could be offered, and will communicate with the hon. Member.

  Return of Working of the Wireless Telegraph Act.
  MR. H. C. LEA: To ask the Postmaster-General whether he will grant a Return relative to the working of the Wireless Telegraph Act for the twelve months ending December 31st, 1905, and the six months ending June 30th, 1906, respectively, similar to the Return ordered by the House of Commons on July 19th, 1905.
  (Answered by Mr. Sydney Buxton.) A Return which will, I hope, afford the information desired by my hon. friend, was presented on June 14th, and will, I understand, be available for distribution to-morrow.

  Education Bill—Schools connected with Institutions.
  MR. F. E. SMITH: To ask the President of the Board of Education whether schools recognised under Clause 38, Part V., of the Education Bills as elementary schools which are part of, or held in premises of, an institution, in which children are boarded will be considered as exempt from those clauses in Part I. which provide for the appointment of teachers and general management by the local education authority, and from those clauses in Part II. which give the local authority power of control over finance.
  (Answered by Mr. Birrell.) In reply to the concluding paragraph of the Question,
  20
  I have to say that Part II. of the Bill will not be proceeded with. In reply to the rest of the Question, the reply is in the affirmative in the case of such schools under the clause as are continued as public elementary schools outside the local authority's control, and in the negative when they are continued as provided schools.

  Publication of Education Return.
  MR. THOMAS O'DONNELL: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department when the Return dealing with education granted on April 5th, will be ready; and whether seeing that three months have elapsed since it was granted, steps will be taken to have it laid as soon as possible.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Gladstone.) I am informed that the particulars asked for by the hon. Member have involved extremely difficult problems in the analysis of the educational statistics of of the several Departments concerned, it being impossible by mere extracts from ordinary statistical records to set out with any accuracy the comparisons between the educational figures of the different parts of the United Kingdom which the hon. Member desires. To prevent the Return from being very misleading, almost all the items have had to be subjected to elaborate investigation, in order to make it possible to give them upon anything approaching a true basis of comparison. Efforts are being made to have the Return ready within a fortnight.

  Publication of Result of Boy Clerks' Examination.
  MR. BOLAND: To ask the Secretary to the Treasury when the result will be published of the competitive examination for boy clerks held last May; and can he say on what date the next examination is likely to be held.
  (Answered by Mr. McKenna.) I am informed that the result of the boy clerks' examination held on May 15th, will probably be published early next week. The next examination is likely to be held towards the end of September. The exact date will be announced within the next few days.

  Motor Traffic—Damage to Property by Dust.
  COLONEL WARDE: To ask the President of the Local Government Board whether he is aware of the danger to health, damage to property, and inconvenience to the general public, caused by the disturbance of dust by motor traffic; and whether he will take steps to render this traffic more responsible for this evil.
  (Answered by Mr. John Burns.) As I have stated in answer to previous Questions on this subject, I have received complaints as to the damage and nuisance caused by the dust raised by motor cars, and I have communicated them to the Royal Commission on Motor Cars for their consideration.

  National Vaccine Establishment's Stock of Lymph.
  SIR W. J. COLLINS: To ask the President of the Local Government Board if he will state the original sources from which the stocks of lymph now used or supplied by the national vaccine establishment were derived; whether obtained in this country or from abroad; and the evidence upon which the genuineness of the vaccine derived from the animal originally yielding the same was established.
  (Answered by Mr. John Burns.) I think I must refer my hon. friend to my reply to the Question on this subject which he put to me on June 28th last,† but I may add that no lymph which, on being passed through a series of calves, is productive of appearances differing in any way from those characteristic of vaccinia in the calf is issued from the National Vaccine Establishment.

QUESTIONS IN THE HOUSE.

  His Majesty's Ship "Montagu."
  MR. MACLEAN: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Admiralty what are the prospects of the battleship " Montagu" now ashore on Lundy Island, being floated; whether the Liverpool Salvage Company is in sole charge of the operations, or are such operations under
  †See (4) Debates,clix., 1116.
  22
  the direction of the admiral; and, if the latter, will the Admiralty consider the advisability of granting to the salvage company such freedom of action as would be given them in the case of a similar casualty in the mercantile marine.
  THE SECRETARY TO THE ADMIRALTY (Mr. EDMUND ROBERTSON,): The prospects of floating the " Montagu" are good if the weather continues favourable. The local operations are under the directions of the Commander-in-Chief of the Channel Fleet, and it is not proposed to make any alterations in the existing arrangements at present.

  Reclamation of Waste Lands in India.
  MR. REESI beg to ask the Secretary of State for India whether the rules for the reclamation of waste lands in Assam and the Central Provinces will be amended in accordance with the recommendations of the Famine Commission.
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR INDIA (Mr. MORLEY,): The Government of India state in their recent Resolution regarding land improvements, that after consulting Local Governments they consider the concession suggested by the Famine Commission goes beyond what is needed for any part of India. They are, however, discussing with the Local Governments of Assam and the Central Provinces the expediency of making the waste land rules in these provinces more liberal in certain respects than they now are.

  Indian Government Records.
  DR. HAZEL: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for India, in view of the fact that the appointment of Mr. J. A. Chapman to the principal-ship of the Calcutta Madrassah is a temporary one, made during the absence on leave of the permanent holder of the office, he will say if Dr. E. Denison Ross, the late principal of the Calcutta Madrassah, has been appointed to the substantive post of officer-in-charge of the records of the Government in India; and if so, who is, at the present moment, the permanent holder of the office of principal of the Calcutta Madrassah.
  MR. MORLEY: Dr. Denison Ross has been appointed to the post of officer in charge of the Records of the Government of India; but he retains, in addition, the principalship of the Madrassah until a permanent successor shall have been appointed.

  The Calcutta Madrassah.
  DR. HAZEL: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for India whether, seeing that it has been customary to select a gentleman of distinguished Oriental scholastic attainments for the principalship of the Calcutta Madrassah, and that Mr. J. A. Chapman, the present holder of that office, possesses no such qualifications, but is an ex-clerk in an exchange bank, whose previous educational work has been to lecture on modern English, to commercial classes at the Presidency College in Calcutta, he will say what steps have been, or are being, taken to secure the services of an Oriental scholar for charge, whether temporary or substantive, of the office of principal of the Calcutta Madrassah; and when it is proposed to relieve Mr. Chapman of his duties, and appoint a permanent incumbent possessing the customary and requisite qualifications.
  MR. MORLEY: Mr. Chapman is acting for Dr. Denison Ross, who has been deputed to Simla on special duty which was expected to last for about two months, and his acting appointment will presumably terminate when Dr. Ross returns to Calcutta. As I have just stated, Dr. Ross retains for the present the principalship of the Madrassah, and I cannot as yet say when a permanent incumbent will be appointed to succeed him.

  Chinese Coolies in South Africa—The Repatriation Notice.
  SIR H. COTTON: I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether the original draft of the Chinese repatriation notice was a simple statement to the effect that coolies who wished to return to China would be able to do so at the cost of the State; whether this draft was rejected by the High Commissioner; and whether the notice eventually published was submitted to the Chamber of Mines before its approval and publication.
  THE UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE COLONIES (Mr. CHURCHILL,): The original proposals for a draft were of considerable length and contained a number of detailed restrictions and precautions designed with the express purpose of giving exact effect to the intention of His Majesty's Government— namely, that coolies who earnestly desired to return to China should lie enabled to do so, but that no incitement or incentive should be offered which would be likely to provoke a general cessation of work on the mines. Lord Selborne, doubtless after full consultation with all parties concerned, proposed an alternative draft which was accepted by the Secretary of State as being an equal fulfilment of the intentions of the Government and for which we take full responsibility. The vehement opposition offered by the gold-mining industry to the posting of the resulting proclamation, shows how little they were able to forecast its effects and how unfounded is the suggestion that the Chamber of Mines was a consenting party to its publication.
  MR. PAULasked whether these Chinamen could be told they could return home without being threatened in the process.
  MR. CHURCHILL: We are considering the question of issuing a new proclamation. As I have already told the hon. and gallant Member for the Abercromby Division of Liverpool, I hope to be in a position to give him an answer to-morrow.
  SIR H. COTTON: May we expect Papers to be laid at an early date?
  MR. CHURCHILL: Yes, Sir, the Blue-book is far advanced in preparation.
  SIR H. COTTON: I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether the explanation of the superintendent of Foreign labour in the Transvaal to the effect that the words, tremblingly obey, are a stereotyped formula attached to every single official proclamation issued in China is accepted as satisfactory by His Majesty's Government; whether these words are ordinarily used in prohibitory proclamations only, and that their introduction into the repatriation proclamation

  25
  was directly calculated to discourse applications for repatriation there under; and, if so, what action His Majesty's Government propose to take in regard to the action of the superintendent under whose signature and authority the repatriation proclamation was issued.
  MR. T. M. HEALY: Why are the quotation marks omitted by the King's printers? It makes the Question unintelligible.
  MR. SPEAKER: I am told that it is not the custom to permit marks indicating that words are quotations in Questions, though I confess it seems to me it would have been very much simpler in this case if these marks had been used.
  MR. CHURCHILL: Lord Elgin is informed by Sir Robert Douglas, of the British Museum, that the phrase " tremblingly obey" is commonly attached to official proclamations, and was originally used to add emphasis to an injunction. It is of such common application, however, that it has ceased to be anything more than a more form, and it is not by any moans confined to prohibitory proclamations.
  MR. REES: May I ask whether the hon. Gentleman is aware that the files of the Pekin Gazette afford no support to the ingenious suggestion that the words " tremblingly obey" —[Cries of " Order ! "]
  MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Member seems to be about to give some information instead of asking it.
  MR. WEIR: Seeing that these words " tremblingly obey " are extremely offensive to British ears, will the hon. Gentleman take care that they are not inserted in any proclamation issued in any part of the British Empire?
  MR. CHURCHILL: If a new proclamation is issued these words will be omitted.
  SIR H. COTTONasked what action the Government proposed to take in regard to the action of the superintendent under whose signature and authority the proclamation was issued.
  MR. CHURCHILL: The action of the superintendent with regard to the issue of the proclamation was in every way proper and correct.
  MR. REES: Should I be in order in asking the hon. Gentleman whether he is aware that this expression is used in proclamations such as might be issued by the most virtuous of Governments— for instance by His Majesty's present advisers.
  MR. SPEAKER: The virtue of different Governments is a matter of opinion, and is hardly a subject for a Question.

  Transvaal Northern Railway Bonds.
  SIR FREDERICK BANBURY: I beg to ask the Undersecretary of State for the Colonies why the Crown agents for the Colonies have given notice to pay the drawn bonds of the Northern Railways of the Transvaal at ninety-six instead of 100, and what justification there is for such a proposal.
  MR. CHURCHILL: The Secretary of State is advised that ninety-six is a fair payment of their value, having regard to their average price before the war, and it should be remembered that in the Report of the Concessions Commission it was stated that there could be no obligation on the new Government to place the debenture holders in a better position than they held under the late Government (page 53 of Cd. 623.)
  SIR FREDERICK BANBURY: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the bonds of the Pretoria and Johannesburg Railway were paid off at 100? What justification is there for treating those bonds in a different manner?
  MR. CHURCHILL: That is only a variation of the original Question; I cannot suggest any convenient variation of my Answer.

  Crœsus Mine Manager.
  MR. MACKARNESS: I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he can now state what stops have been taken by the Transvaal authorities to bring to justice Withaner, the manager of the compound in the Crœsus Mine, for the

  27
  admitted flogging of Chinese coolies as alleged in a report made to Lord Selborne by the superintendent of Foreign labour more than two months ago; and whether any reason has been given for the delay on the part of the authorities in taking proceedings in this case.
  MR. CHURCHILL: Lord Selborne telegraphed to the Secretary of State on June 30th that the case was in the hands of the Public Prosecutor, Johannesburg, who was issuing a summons for July 2nd, and that the delay had been unavoidable.
  MR. LUPTONasked whether in mines worked under conditions similar to those in the Transvaal it was possible to get the requisite amount of work out of man without some form of torture.
  MR. CHURCHILL: I must ask the hon. Gentleman for notice of that Question.

  New Comet Mine—Mr. Thomas Ratcliffe.
  MR. J. RAMSAY MACDONALD: I beg to ask the Undersecretary of State for the Colonies whether Mr. Thomas Ratcliffe, who has taken an affidavit that he saw a Chinaman flogged in a compound since the Order prohibiting flogging was promulgated, was dismissed from his employment on the New Comet mine immediately the fact became known that he had lodged sworn information; and whether the Government propose to take any steps to protect men who report breaches in the law which are committed inside compounds.
  MR. CHURCHILL: A telegram has already been sent calling for a report, as I stated in the House in answer to Questions on Thursday and Monday last, and on receipt of the information the Secretary of State will consider whether any action should be taken.

  Ceylon Pearl Fisheries.
  MR. J. D. WHITE: I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of of State for the Colonies if he can say how it came about that, in determining what annual rent should be paid for the next twenty years by the private firm leasing the Ceylon Government pearl
  28
  fisheries, the amount was based on the average net revenue for the previous twenty years, in twelve of which the fishery had failed altogether, although the Governor of Ceylon, in conformity with the opinion of experts, had stated in the dispatch of Juno 14th, 1905, that with improved and systematic culture there seemed no reason to apprehend a failure of an annual fishery in future years.
  MR. CHURCHILL: I presume that the explanation is that improved prospects will depend on the scientific culture on which the company are by the terms of the lease bound to expend from one million to three million rupees in the course of the next twenty years, and which it might be urged since the whole problem of the cultivation and conservation of the pearl oyster on these banks involves a number of any doubtful factors, may or may not prove successful.
  MR. MENZIES: I beg to ask the Under-secretary of state for the Colonies, seeing that the contract with the syndicate who have obtained the concession for the next twenty years of the pearl fisheries in Ceylon was so nearly concluded when the present Government took office that it was not considered possible to reconsider its terms and thus obviate the loss which it entails, will the Government now make such arrangements as will enable them to know with absolute certainty the net yearly profits made by the new limited company, and in that way ensure a more businesslike and adequate return to the Colonial revenue for these fisheries in future.
  MR. CHURCHILL: I am of opinion that the published accounts of the Company ought annually to supply the particulars referred to by the hon. Member; and we are addressing them upon this point.

  Compulsory Vaccination in Switzerland.
  MR. LUPTON: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he will ascertain and inform the House which of the Cantons constituting the Swiss Republic have abolished compulsory vaccination, and which of them still enforce it; and whether the population of the Cantons in which compulsion has

  29
  been retained show a liability to smallpox greater or less than the liability-shown by the population of the Cantons which have abolished compulsion.
  THE SECRETARY TO THE LOCAL GOVERNMENT BOARD (Mr. RUNCIMAN,, for Sir EDWARD GREY): Our latest information (1900) respecting Vaccination Law in Switzerland represents:—
  2 Cantons as having never passed such Law.
  9 Cantons as having repealed a former Vaccination Law.
  2 Cantons as not enforcing their Vaccination Law.
  12 Cantons as having Vaccination Law more or less in force.
  Switzerland, in recent years, has not suffered much smallpox; in the period 1900–04 (inclusive) there occurred in this country some 800 cases only of the disease. These cases were fairly evenly distributed between the thirteen Cantons not enforcing, and the twelve cantons giving effect to Vaccination Law. But though the disease may be regarded as fairly evenly distributed in the five years in question over the whole population, it affected very differently children under ten years of age. Of the 800 odd smallpox attacks, 180 were of children under ten; and of these 180 children, twenty-six are recorded as vaccinated, while 154 are returned as unvaccinated. Of the twenty-six vaccinated children taking smallpox, none died; whereas of the 154 recorded as vaccinated and attacked by the disease, twenty-seven died.

  Dog Tax Assessors.
  MR. SEARS: I beg to ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will state what was the class and rank of the officers in the Civil Service who were responsible for the assessment of the dog tax prior to 1867, and what was the class and rank of the officers to whom the duties were transferred, which transference led to the increase in the number of dog licences issued from 445,000 to 828,000 in 10 months and to 1,362,000 in 10 years; what steps the Board took in dealing with officers who had been negligent in the discharge of their duties, and can he give a reference to any Parliamentary Paper in which the circumstances are mentioned; is he aware
  30
  that the Board of Inland Revenue in their twelfth Report stated that the transfer of duties took place under an Act of Parliament passed in March, 1867, and that it was a transfer of duties from parochial to Government officers.
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER (Mr. ASQUITH,): The transfer of 1867 was a transfer from one set of Government officials to another, viz., from Tax officials to Excise officials. I find, however, though I regret the fact was overlooked in my reply to my hon. friend on the 21st ultimo, † that under the Tax officials parochial assessors had been employed, and that their employment ceased on the transfer to the Excise. The Question relates to a past which is now very remote, and the Board of Inland Revenue are not aware of any action taken by their predecessors with reference to any neglect that may have occurred on the part of parochial assessors or collectors, nor can they give a reference to any Parliamentary Paper in which such action is mentioned. But, when the results of the Act of 1867 are cited, it should not be overlooked that, by that Act, the duty on dog licences was reduced from 12s. to 5s., and that the beneficial results that followed may have been due to their reduction quite as much as, or even more than, they were due to the change in the machinery of assessment and collection.

  Tax Assessment and Collection.
  MR. SEARS: I beg to ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer if he is aware that in 1862–3 influential witnesses, including chairmen of the Board of Inland Revenue, heard before the Hors-fall Committee, condemned the system of assessment and collection of taxes by parochial officers; and that the Committee in their Report recommended the Scottish system of employing Government officers, on the ground that it would confer much benefit upon the public, and effect a large saving in the cost of collection; will he say what steps, if any, were taken to give effect to the finding of that Committee; whether the system then condemned is the same as now in use; and, if not, in what respects it differs.
  † See (4) Debates, clix., 362.
  MR. ASQUITH: The Horsfall Committee, so far as I ascertain did not do more than report the evidence taken— not, apparently, being able to agree on any conclusions or recommendations.

  Income Tax Collectors.
  MR. SEARS: I beg to ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer if he is aware that both in Scotland and in Ireland the assessors and collectors of income tax, etc., are Government officers, whilst in England parochial officers are employed on the same class of work; will he say if the Acts of Parliament for this purpose are the same for the United Kingdom; and, seeing that the system has been found to work so satisfactorily in Ireland and Scotland, if he will take steps to introduce it into England so as to dispense with clerks to Commissioners, except in their capacity as legal advisers to the Commissioners sitting as a Court of Appeal.
  MR. ASQUITH: The statement in the first part of the Question is not accurate. In Scotland only some of the assessors are Government officers, whilst in Ireland the collectors are almost wholly unestablished employees. The law is not the same for the three parts of the United Kingdom, and the system at present in force in England could not be assimilated either to that of Scotland or to that of Ireland without extensive changes in the law, which the Board of inland revenue cannot recommend.

  Inspectors of Mines.
  MR. J. WILLIAMS: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he is in a position to make a further statement as to the Inspectorate of Mines for South Wales.
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE HOME DEPARTMENT (Mr. GLADSTONE,): Yes, Sir; and having consulted my right hon. friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer, I think I am now in a position to propose an arrangement which will be satisfactory to hon. Members from South Wales. The special dangers of the South Wales coalfield require a strong inspectorate. It was for that reason that I appointed Mr. Atkinson to the Swansea district. But on account of the representations made
  32
  to me as to the desirability of having a Welsh-speaking inspector in charge of the Swansea district I have decided perhaps to anticipate a recommendation of the Royal Commission and to strengthen the staff for the whole of South Wales. The Cardiff district is already in charge of a Welsh-speaking inspector. Mr. Dyer Lewis, who speaks Welsh, will be appointed as acting inspector in the Swansea district. For the two districts there will be, as now, four assistant-inspectors. Mr. Atkinson will be superintending-inspector for the combined areas. the whole of South Wales will therefore get the benefit of Mr. Atkinson's skill and experience, while nearest to the men there will be the Welsh-speaking inspectors. I hope and believe that this plan will make for increased efficiency in the prevention of accidents. I wish it to be understood that the new arrangement involves no reflection whatever on the zeal and ability of Mr. Gray, the inspector of the Cardiff district.
  LORD BALCARKESasked the right hon. Gentleman whether he would favourably consider the desirability of appointing one of these higher superintending inspectors for the coalfield of Lancashire also.
  MR. GLADSTONEreplied that the whole question was under the consideration of the Royal Commission, and he was not prepared to answer that Question at this moment.

  Lost Property Rewards.
  MR. T. DAVIES: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he is aware of the inconvenience, trouble, and expense given the recipients of rewards for delivering up lost property found in public vehicles, etc., by compelling the finders to attend personally or by proxy, at New Scotland Yard, to receive the reward; and whether he will consider the possibility of sending the amount by postal order to the address of the finder, or that it might lie handed to him at any police station by request.
  MR. GLADSTONE: It is not the case that finders are compelled to attend personally or by proxy at New Scotland Yard to receive their rewards; these

  33
  rewards are always sent by post when the finder so desires.

  Swiss Post Office Officials and Vaccination.
  MR. LUPTON: I beg to ask the Postmaster-General whether the conscientious objections of post office officials are respected in Switzerland; and, if the reply be in the affirmative, whether they have shown any special liability to smallpox in consequence of their exemption from vaccination.
  THE POSTMASTER-GENERAL (Mr. SYDNEY BUXTON, Tower Hamlets,): I am not aware what is the practice in Switzerland in regard to the vaccination of post office officials, nor have I any information in regard to the experience regarding the results of that practice.
  MR. LUPTON: Will the right hon. Gentleman ascertain if it be not the fact that the death-rate from smallpox in Switzerland is as high in districts where vaccination is compulsory as it is in those where it is not compulsory?
  MR. T. M. HEALY: IS it fair to Switzerland thus to brand it with smallpox?
  [No Answer was returned.]

  British Mails on German Boats.
  MR. CHARLES DEVLIN: I beg to ask the Postmaster-General if he will state the total amount paid by: His Majesty's Government to the German Government during the last fiscal year for the carriage by steamers of German lines of His Majesty's mails to the United States.
  MR. SYDNEY BUXTON: The. amount paid for the period in question was £1,550; but as the payments are based on periodical statistics the sum represents the correspondence which was specially addressed to be sent by German steamer when the last statistics were taken. Fresh statistics will be taken next year, and it is impossible at present to say what sum will then be payable.

  Wireless Telegraphy.
  MR. BEAUCHAMP: I beg to ask the Postmaster-General whether any licences for the
  34
  establishment of wireless telegraph stations have been granted to the Corporation of Lloyds.
  MR. SYDNEY BUXTON: Licences have been promised to the Corporation of Lloyds for a number of stations, and will be issued very shortly. Their settlement has been delayed by difficult questions arising out of the relations between Lloyds and the Marconi Company. In connection with the matter, I take the opportunity of making an explanation. On the Post Office Estimates the other day, I thought it my duty strongly to comment on some circulars issued by the secretary of Lloyds in regard to this matter, † Since then I have received communications from the secretary stating that the circulars in question were issued in good faith. This assurance I, of course, accept, and am glad to withdraw any words which might imply the contrary.

  Toxteth Relieving Officer.
  MR. WILLIAM RUTHERFORD: I beg to ask the President to the Local Government Board whether his attention has been called to the recent appointment of a relieving officer by the Toxteth guardians, who advertised, about the 18th May, for applications, stating that candidates must not be more than forty years of age; that notwithstanding that there wore many candidates with experience of the duties and complying with the age limit, the guardians have appointed the secretary of the Claremont Liberal Club, a man forty-one and a half years of age and without any previous experience; and whether he proposes to sanction this appointment.
  THE SECRETARY TO THE LOCAL GOVERNMENT BOARD (Mr. RUNCIMAN,): My right hon. friend has received some representations with regard to this appointment and has asked for the observations of the guardians on the subject. These he expects shortly to receive.

  Poplar Inquiry.
  SIR FREDERICK BANBURY:I beg to ask the President to the Local Government Board whether he will have the shorthand notes which he is having taken
  † See (4) Debates, clix., 389.

  35
  of the proceedings of the Poplar Inquiry printed and circulated as a Parliamentary paper at the close of the inquiry.
  MR. RUNCIMAN: As my right hon. friend has previously stated, he proposes to defer the consideration of this Question until the Inquiry is completed.

  Poplar Receiving House for Children.
  SIR FREDERICK BANBURY: I beg to ask the President of the Local Government Board if he can state the total cost to date of the receiving house for children at 54, East India Dock Road, Poplar; and also the total cost to date of the poor law schools of the Poplar union at Hutton, Essex.
  MR. RUNCIMAN: The total expenditure sanctioned in respect of the receiving home is £14,210, and in respect of the schools £156,545. I am not able to state the precise amounts which have been spent on them.

  Belmont Imbecile Asylum, Sutton.
  DR. COOPER: I beg to ask the President of the Local Government Board whether his attention has been directed to the outbreak of enteric fever at the Belmont Imbecile Asylum, Sutton; whether any delay arose in notifying the disease to the local sanitary authority; and whether the cause of the infection has been discovered.
  MR. RUNCIMAN: I am aware of the outbreak referred to. There was some delay in the notification to the sanitary authority. This was due to the fact that many of the cases, especially the earlier ones, presented peculiar symptoms, and that it was not until bacteriological tests had been applied that a diagnosis of enteric fever was arrived at.

  Vaccination of Teachers.
  MR. LUPTON: I beg to ask the President of the Board of Education if he can state whether teachers in Government schools in Switzerland have their conscientious objections to vaccination respected; and, if it be in the affirmative, whether this abolition of compulsory vaccination and re-vaccination has been followed by these officials showing any special liability to small-pox.
  THE PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY TO THE BOARD OF EDUCATION (Mr. LOUGH,): I have no information on the subject.
  MR. LUPTON: Will you make inquiry?
  MR. LOUGH: I will see if inquiries can be made.

  Treasury Grant to Welsh Intermediate Schools.
  MR. GIBBS: I beg to ask the President of the Board of Education what is the total amount of Treasury grant paid to Welsh intermediate schools under Section 9 of the Welsh Intermediate Education Act, 1889, in the last complete year; and what is the total amount of grant paid to those schools under the secondary school regulations in the same period.
  MR. LOUGH: the figures are as follows:—The total amount of grant paid under Section 9 of the Welsh Intermediate Education Act, 1889, in respect of the year ending June 30th, 1905, was £22,281 3s. 7d. The total amount paid under the Regulations for Secondary Schools for the same year was £16,102 17s. 0d.

  Dipton Catholic School.
  MR. MACVEAGH: I beg to ask the President of the Board of Education whether his attention has been called to the proceedings at the inquiry into the proposal to build a Catholic school at Dipton, Durham; whether he is aware that the clerk to the Durham County Council wrote a letter stating that the existing Catholic school would only be recognised for 365 scholars, although the secretary of the Durham education authority wrote that there were 507 places; whether the local education authority now seeks to compel the Catholic children to accept board school teaching; and whether he can state if the Durham County Council brought down a member of the Parliamentary bar to oppose the granting of educational facilities to Catholics in a new school which they are willing to build at their own cost; and, if so, what fee he received, and by whom will it have to be paid.
  MR. LOUGH: I have not yet received the Report of the Commissioner appointed to hold the inquiry, which, indeed, only took place a few days ago. Until that Report has been received and carefully considered I must decline to answer any of the Questions put to me by the hon. Member on the subject matter of the inquiry.
  MR. DILLON: Has the attention of the hon. Gentleman been directed to a speech by the chairman of this body in which he said he would not rest satisfied as long as there was one denominational school in the district.
  MR. LOUGH: No, Sir.
  MR. DILLON: I will send the hon. Gentleman a report of the speech.

  Government Abstractors' Pension.
  MR. CLELAND: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury whether, in view of the compulsory retirements at the War Office and General Post Office of abstractors, after over thirty years service, on pensions of about 12s. or 13s. per week, he will take steps to revise the rules which compel abstractors to deduct, when reckoning their service for pension, half their un-established service which merged into permanent service, so as to put them on a similar footing to those who entered the service under precisely the same regulations as to pension, and who are allowed to count the whole of their temporary service towards superannuation.
  THE FINANCIAL SECRETARY OF THE TREASURY (Mr. MCKENNA,): I regret that I can add nothing to the Answers which have been repeatedly given by myself and my predecessors on this subject. In particular I would refer the hon. Member to the replies which I gave to Questions by the hon. Members for Woolwich and Blackburn on March 26th and May 17th last respectively.†

  The Mall.
  MR. T. DAVIES: I beg to ask the First Commissioner of Works whether he can inform the House when he expects the work of extending the Mall completed;
  † See (4) Debates, clix., 839; clvii., 654
  38
  and whether it is his intention to demolish any more of the buildings in Spring Gardens in order to have a wider and a more imposing entrance from Charing Cross.
  THE FIRST COMMISSIONER OF WORKS (Mr. HARCOURT,): The new Admiralty building at the end of the Mall is expected to be completed by the end of 1908. The buildings in Spring Gardens referred to are not the property of His Majesty's Government and I am not aware of any proposal to demolish them, but if this is suggested it would seem to be in the nature of a Metropolitan improvement and as such is a matter for the London County Council.

  Land Registration in Scotland.
  MR. EUGENE WASON: I beg to ask the Secretary for Scotland whether any steps have been taken to carry out one of the recommendations of the Committee appointed in 1897 to inquire into the present system of land registration in Scotland, viz., that the substitution of a photo-zincographic for a written record should, under appropriate regulations and safeguards, be sanctioned.
  THE SECRETARY FOR SCOTLAND (Mr. SINCLAIR,): No such steps have been taken hitherto. The substitution of a photo-zincographic for a written record cannot be carried out except by legislation, which is not at present possible.

  Lswis—Local Taxation.
  MR. WEIR: I beg to ask the Secretary for Scotland whether he has yet received the Report on the incidence of local taxation in the Island of Lewis; and, if so, can he state when it will be laid upon the Table of the House.
  MR. SINCLAIR: The Report has been received and will be issued as soon as possible. I am not in a position to name a date.
  MR. WEIR: Is the Report in the hands of the printers yet?
  MR. SINCLAIR: I will ascertain.
  MR. WEIR: Will the right hon. Gentleman see that it is not kept back purposely?
  MR. SINCLAIR: There is no such intention.
  MR. WEIR: It was so last year.

  Medical Statistics for the Island ofLewis.
  MR. WEIR: I beg to ask the Secretary for Scotland if he will state when the Report of the medical inspector of the Local Government Board concerning the statistical data of the Island of Lewis for ten years 1895 to 1904, inclusive, will be presented to Parliament.
  MR. SINCLAIR: The Report to which my hon. friend refers does not add materially to the information already furnished, and under these circumstances it is not intended to present it to Parliament at present.
  MR. WEIR: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that this Report would be of the greatest service to me?

  Evicted Tenants and Untenanted Lands
  MR. GINNELL: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland, in view of the need of land for evicted tenants and other persons, and the danger that if untenanted land be not acquired now for these purposes it may pass permanently into the hands of graziers, whether all rural district councils will be furnished with copies of the forthcoming Return of untenanted land; and whether all purchase inspectors will be instructed to visit and report upon all land of this class in the counties in which they work.
  THE CHIEF SECRETARY FOR IRELAND (Mr. BRYCE,): I have already informed the hon. Member that it is not proposed to distribute the Return gratuitously to local authorities, and I have also stated the course which the Estates Commissioners intend to adopt. I refer to my Answers to the hon. Member's Questions of 21st and 28th May. † The Commissioners propose in the first instance to ascertain from the owners of untenanted land which appears
  † See (4) Debates, clvii., 948; clviii., 81, 88.
  40
  suitable for distribution whether they are prepared to sell to the Commissioners, and if the owners should express their willingness to sell, the Commissioners will have the lands inspected, and will intimate to the owners the prices they are prepared to give.
  MR. GINNELL: Will the Commissioners inquire into uneconomic holdings and untenanted lands in all parts of Ireland?
  MR. BRYCE: It is intended that the term of reference shall cover Ireland generally. The inquiry will not be restricted to the congested districts.

  Irish. Emigration—The Labourers Bill.
  MR. GINNELL: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he has noticed that the present increase in the numbers emigrating from Ireland comes mainly from the rural population, and is due to want of land, while large tracts are untenanted; will the Government give favourable consideration to Amendments of the Labourers Bill designed to break in upon those tracts; and will a serious effort be made next session to make those tracts available for popular use.
  MR. BRYCE: The Registrar-General informs me that he believes the hon. Member to be correct in assuming that the increase in the number of emigrants from Ireland in April and May came mainly from the rural population. The bulk of emigration ordinarily comes from the rural classes, and fluctuations from varying causes, including no doubt the want of land, are not unusual. There was, for instance, a considerable decrease in the month of March. I have already announced that it is the intention of the Government to appoint a Royal Commission to inquire into the problem of congestion in Ireland. That inquiry will not be confined to the western part of the country. The question of untenanted land does not appear to arise directly upon the Labourers Bill, but so far as any Amendments to that Bill are in order they will be fairly considered.

  Dromahane Evicted Tenant.
  MR. FLYNN: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether the Estates

  41
  Commissioners have received an application in respect to the holding of Mrs. O'Regan, widow, Dromahane, Mallow, from which she was recently evicted, and which is now in the possession of Mr. T. Mullane, national teacher; and, if so, what steps have been taken in regard to the reinstatement of this evicted tenant.
  MR. BRYCE: The Estates Commissioners have received from Mrs. O'Regan an application for reinstatement, and have referred it to one of their inspectors for inquiry in due course.

  Mr. Templemary's Buttevant Estate.
  MR. FLYNN: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether the Estates Commissioners have received any information in regard to the estate of Mr. Richard Fuge Templemary, Buttevant, county Cork; and whether, in view of the fact that eight tenants have been evicted on this property, and their holdings are now in the landlord's possession and used as a grazing ranch, the Commissioners will send an inspector to the district with a view to the purchase of this property and the reinstatement of evicted tenants.
  R. BRYCEThe Estates Commissioners have received five applications for reinstatement on this estate Three of these are already in the hands of the local inspector for inquiry, and the two remaining cases will be referred to him.

  Work of the Irish Department of Agriculture.
  MR. GINNELL: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland if he has noticed that the Department of Agriculture and Technical Instruction has already cost, out of moneys voted by Parliament, more than £1,000,000, plus £252,639 contributed by local bodies; that in the six years since the Department was founded the area under grass, including meadow and clover, has increased, the area waste or half-cultivated has increased, and the area under tillage crops diminished; that emigration continues and now includes, in addition to agricultural workers, many on whose technical and scientific training public money has been expended; and if the committee of inquiry, now sitting, will investigate the methods which have
  42
  produced these results, with a view to suggesting a remedy.
  MR. BRYCE: The sums which have been voted by Parliament to the Department of Agriculture and Technical Instruction amount to £1,000,893. This sum, however, includes the cost of the various departments and institutions which were transferred by statute to the Department, including the Fisheries Office, the Veterinary Department, the Royal College of Science, the Science and Art Museum, the National Library, the Metropolitan School of Art, and the Royal Botanic Gardens. It also includes the Science and Art grants formerly administered from South Kensington, and grants in aid of the Congested Districts Board amounting to £160,000. The contributions of local bodies are not grants received by the Department, but are amounts levied by local authorities from the rates to be expended locally upon schemes subsidised by the Department. It is the fact that since the Department was founded the area under crops has decreased, and that the area under grass, including meadow and clover, has increased; but it is not the case that the area of waste land has increased. I am informed that the increase in pasture since 1900 has been much less marked than in the preceding years. Emigration no doubt continues, but I have no information that persons are emigrating on whose technical and scientific training public money has been expended. The terms of reference to the committee include an inquiry into the Department's funds and the modes of employing them.
  MR. FLYNN: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware how much of the £1,000,000 —a considerable proportion—has been expended on the clerical and other staffs.
  MR. BRYCE: I cannot say.

  The Robert Tyndall Estate, County Kilkenny.
  MR. O'MARA: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that the tenants of the Robert Tyndall estate, Kilmacow, county Kilkenny, were negotiating for purchase and that the best offer which the landlord would make was 26·6 years purchase of

  43
  present rents; whether the Estates Commissioners will consent to act as arbitrators between landlord and tenants, if requested by the tenants; whether he is aware that, on the failure of negotiations for sale, the landlord took stops to enforce immediate payment of present rents, and obtained from the courts writs for seizure, and whether he will take such steps as will safeguard these tenants from further proceedings of this nature?
  MR. BRYCE: The Estates Commissioners inform me that no proceedings for the sale of the estate referred to have yet been instituted before them, and they have not been asked by any of the persons concerned to intervene as conciliators in pursuance of the regulations. If such a request should be made by the tenants, and they should be furnished with particulars of the estate, they will be prepared to consider whether this is a case in which their intervention would be likely to lead to an amicable settlement.

  Congested Districts Board's Records.
  MR. JOHN ROCHE: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether the Congested Districts Board keep a record, in tabulated form, by counties, of the area and valuation of the lands purchased by them, and the price paid for each property, showing the amount paid for occupation interest, and the amount paid for fee-simple, together with the sum expended on dwelling-houses, farm buildings, drainage, fencing, striping, or other improvements on these lands, the area and annuity of each allotted plot, with the name of the lardlord and occupier from whom purchased; whether a tabulated record by counties is kept of the area and valuation of lands which they have offered to purchase, but were unable to buy, together with the price demanded and the price refused, showing amount offered for fee-simple and amount offered for occupation interest, together with the name of the landlord and occupier in each case; and whether a similar record is kept by the Estates Commissioners; if not, will instructions be given to these Government Departments to keep such records for the information of Parliament.
  MR. BRYCE: The Congested Districts Board keep for their own purposes records of all the matters referred to in the
  44
  Question, but they always treat as confidential their negotiations for purchase in cases where no agreement is arrived at. The prices offered in these cases are duly recorded. The price offered is for the fee-simple. No offer is made for occupation interest. Detailed information as to the estates purchased is given in the Board's annual reports. The Estates Commissioners keep records of all estates purchased by them under the Irish Land Act, 1903, and from these records are compiled the elaborate statements in tabular form appended to their annual reports. The particulars recorded comprise, by counties, the area and price of estates purchased by them, and the valuation when known. No price is paid by the Commissioners for occupation interest. Full particulars are also kept of the sums expended on improvements; also of the area and annuity of the plots allotted, and the name of the landlord and purchaser. The Commissioners also keep a record of the area of, and price offered for, all estates as to which their offer has been refused by the owner, but the negotiations in cases of this kind are regarded as confidential and the details cannot be published. The price offered is in all cases for the fee-simple interest; the Commissioners do not make advances for the purchase of tenants' occupation interest. In addition to the information given in the annual report, monthly returns are now being presented to Parliament, which give, in tabular form, by estates, the name of each purchaser of a holding, the townland, area, valuation, rent, tenure, price, amount of advance, and date of advance.
  MR. KILBRIDE: Will this information which the right hon. Gentleman says is confidential be at the disposal of the Commission about to be appointed?
  MR. BRYCE: I should say it would, but it would be treated as confidential, I imagine. That, however, is a matter for the Commission itself.
  MR. KILBRIDE: Would it not be important for the Commissioners to hare particulars of the offers made by unreasonable and unconciliatory landords in Ireland?
  MR. BRYCE: There is no reason why the Commission should not have at its disposal every kind of information it requires.

  Mr. Leader's Banteer (Cork) Estate.
  MR. FLYNN: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland, in reference to the sale of the estate of Mr. W. Leader, Dromagh, Banteer, county Cork, for which the originating application was lodged in June, 1905, whether the Estates Commissioners have yet succeeded in procuring the reinstatement and resettlement of the evicted tenants, Denis Fitzpatrick and Mrs. Cronin; whether the landlord has yet made any offer to the Commissioners of the sale of any portion of the untenanted land in his possession, with a view to settling other deserving evicted tenants of the locality on economic holdings, and the applotment of land amongst the labourers of the locality; and, if so, what action has been taken by the Commissioners.
  MR. BRYCE: The Estates Commissioners inform me that they have now received their inspector's report upon the applications of the two persons mentioned, and will consider it in due course. The estate, for the sale of which proceedings have been instituted, comprises, in addition to tenanted land, 1,080 acres of untenanted land which the vendor proposes to sell to the Commissioners, and of which he proposes to repurchase 880 acres. The Commissioners have not yet ruled on the application.

  Kilkeary Lands, Kilkenny.
  MR. O'MARA: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that the Irish Land Commission are landlords of certain lands of Kilkeary, in the county of Kilkenny, held by fifteen tenants; that up to 1893 these lands were held from the Irish Land Commission by middlemen; that in consequence of the non-payment of rent by these middlemen they were ejected by the Land Commission in 1893; that a representative of the Land Commission then induced some of the occupying tenants to sign agreements to become tenants to the Land Commission at a rent which was nearly three times the rent previously payable to the Land Commission by the middlemen; that these
  46
  tenants got an undertaking from the representative of the Irish Land Commission, before signing such agreements, that the Land Commission would sell to them under the Land Purchase Acts at sixteen-and-a-half years purchase of the rent so agreed on, and that the purchase agreements would be sent to them for signature; and will he say why this arrangement has not hitherto been carried out, and whether the Land Commission will now have effect given to it.
  MR. BRYCE: I have not yet received from the Land Commission the necessary-information to enable me to reply to this Question. The subject appears to be one of some complexity, and doubtless the Commissioners find it necessary to make detailed inquiries. I would ask the hon. Member to defer the Question for a few days.

  Congested Districts Boards Land Purchases.
  MR. FLYNN: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether the Congested Districts Board paid for lands purchased by them, fifteen years purchase of first-term rents in 1902 and eighteen years purchase in 1906, and of second term rents eighteen and three-quarter years purchase in 1902, and twenty-one and a quarter years purchase in 1906; and, if so, can the Board explain, in view of the depression in agricultural values, how the increase of three years purchase and two and-a-half years respectively can be explained.
  MR. BRYCE: The facts are as stated by the hon. Member. The Question put will be mentioned to the Board at its next meeting, which will be in a few days. I have not the materials at present for a fuller answer.

  Cork Agricultural Schemes.
  MR. FLYNN: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that for the purposes of schemes under the Agricultural and Technical Instruction (Ireland) Act, 1899, the Cork County Council has contributed out of the rates, during the five years ended 31st March, 1906, the sum of £21,110, and Cork County Borough, for the same period, the sum of £4,335; whether he can say what specific schemes for the improvement of agriculture have

  47
  been carried out in the county by the Department during that period, and what schemes for technical instruction in the county borough; and whether, having regard to the large sums contributed by the county and in view of the evidence given before the Butter Committee of this House by butter experts in respect to the dairy industry in Denmark, Canada, and the Australian Colonies, the Department are prepared to take practical steps towards the establishment of winter dairying in Ireland.
  MR. BRYCE: The facts are correctly stated in the first paragraph of the Question. The agricultural schemes which have been put into operation in the county are those relating to—Live Stock Improvement; Poultry Improvement; Instruction in Horticulture and Bee Keeping; Instruction in Home Dairying; Subsidies to Agricultural Shows; Instruction in Agriculture, including winter classes; and the scheme of prizes for cottages and small farms. The Technical Instruction Scheme in operation in the county borough includes instruction in some fifty subjects of Science, Art, Technology, Commerce, Domestic Economy, Lace and Crochet Making, and Art Needlework. As regards winter dairying in Ireland, a few of the County Committees of Agriculture have recently discussed the question; and the Department are prepared to do whatever they legitimately can do towards encouraging this industry.

  Irish Land Prices—Holdings Within the Zones.
  MR. GINNELL: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to that Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland, since the large class of holdings within the zones are not inspected on a sale, what ground is there for his hope that, on a reversal of the decision in King-Harman and Hayes, the consequential adjustments of price and bonus in completed transactions could be made; and will the Lord-Lieutenant, in exercise of his powers under the Land Act of 1903, require the Estates Commissioners to obtain and record, irrespective of zones, the information necessary for this purpose.
  MR. BRYCE: In the case of holdings within the zones, the prices agreed on are presumed to be equitable, consequently
  48
  the question raised in the case of Hayes v. King-Harman could not, under the terms of the Act of 1903, be applied to such cases. The reversal of the decision in that case would not, therefore, affect zone cases. The Lord-Lieutenant does not propose to require the Estates Commissioners to take a form of action which was not contemplated by Parliament.

  Irish Returns.
  COLONEL M'CALMONT; I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland who provided the information contained in Return No. 173, presented to Parliament in 1903, and is it not customary when preparing such Returns to apply for information on the subject to the owner of the property or his representative.
  MR. BRYCE: I am informed by the Inspector General that the information embodied in the Return referred to was obtained by the police from the best available sources. Unless the facts were within the knowledge of the police themselves, they usually applied to the landlord or his representative, and when the facts could not be ascertained in this way they sought information from the evicted tenant.
  COLONEL MCCALMONT: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the agent of this estate never knew of the existence of this Return till a fortnight ago when a Question was put on it to the right hon. Gentleman, and does he know that the agent declares the Return to be both misleading and inaccurate?
  MR. BRYCE: I do not see how I can know what is in the agent's mind, but if he will convey his views to those who compiled the Return no doubt they will be taken notice of.

  Bruff Evicted Tenants.
  MR. LUNDON: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland if he is aware that about the end of the year 1880, on the expiration of the leases of 'Catherine Walsh and James Toomey, both of North Camas, Bruff, co. Limerick, the landlord. Dr. Samuel Russell, Army surgeon, evicted them from their farms, on which they had expended considerable sums of money in draining,

  49
  fencing, and levelling, portions of which were cut out bog; is he aware that the landlord's plea for so doing was his alleged desire of farming the lands for himself; that, under a promise of restoring thorn at no distant date, he induced them to take a small amount of compensation, but afterwards gave the farms in question to a planter named Paul Rourke; is he aware that Rourke is only an eleven months' tenant; and will he say whether the Estates Commissioners have received applications for reinstatement from those evicted tenants, and will they send an inspector to make inquiry on the subject.
  MR. BRYCE: The Estates Commissioners inform me that they have received from the persons named applications for reinstatement in evicted farms now in the occupation of a msn named Rourke. The cases will be inquired into by the local inspector in due course, but in the meantime the Commissioners have no knowledge of the facts.

  The Royal Canal.
  MR. J. P FARRELL: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether his attention has been called to the state of the Royal Canal between Longford and Mullingar; how long it is since a dredger was used on this portion of the canal; and will he use his influence to get the owners to put the canal into a workable condition.
  MR. BRYCE: I am informed by the Board of Control that on May 24th, when their officer last inspected the Royal Canal between Longford and Mullingar, a dredger was being used there. The Board are aware that dredging operations have been steadily proceeding on this portion of the canal for the past four years.

  Irish Consultative Committee of Education.
  MR. LONSDALE: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that of the five members constituting the Consultative Committee of Education, three represent the Department of Agriculture and Technical Instruction, while the National Board and the Intermediate Board have only one representative each upon the Committee;
  50
  and whether, in order to stimulate greater interest in the work of the Committee, he will propose a revision of its constitution, so as to make it more truly representative of all branches of education in Ireland.
  MR. BRYCE: Under the 23rd section of the Agriculture and Technical Instruction Act, 1899, the Consultative Committee of Education is to consist of five members, namely, the Vice-President of the Department, and one member to be appointed by each of the following Boards:—National Education Board, Intermediate Education Board, Agricultural Board, and Board of Technical Instruction. No change in the method of constituting the Committee could be effected without legislation.
  MR. DILLON: Do the Committee ever meet?
  MR. BRYCE: Yes, they met very recently and drew up a confidential report.

  Treasury Grants for Irish School Buildings.
  MR LONSDALE: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether representations have been made to him recently by the Commissioners of National Education pressing for the restoration of Treasury grants for building new schools in Ireland, and for the repair and equipment of school buildings; and whether he is able to-state the result of his negotiations with the Treasury in reference to this matter.
  MR. BRYCE: Correspondence upon this subject has for some time been passing between the Irish Government, the Commissioners of National Education, and the Treasury. It would, however, be contrary to usage to state the details of the correspondence. A definite conclusion has not yet been arrived at, but the Irish Government are doing all that may be possible to bring about a prompt settlement of the question, the importance of which is fully recognised.

  Ballinamore Rate Collector.
  MR. LONSDALE: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether the appointment by the Leitrim County Council of Mr. P. Curran as rate collector of the divisions

  51
  of Ballinamore has been sanctioned by the Local Government Board; whether he is aware that, at the last meeting of the county council, the chairman refused to submit a motion, of which due notice had been given, to rescind the appointment of Mr. Curran and to accept instead the tender of Mr. James Kelly, who offered to do the collecting at a commission of two pence in the pound, against sixpence in the pound to be paid to Mr. Curran; and whether the chairman was entitled to refuse to put this motion to the meeting.
  MR. BRYCE: The Local Government Board have sanctioned the appointment of Mr. Curran. The Board understand that the chairman of the county council, on the advice of the solicitor to the council, refused to put the motion for rescinding Mr. Curran's appointment, and in the Board's opinion the chairman acted within his powers, seeing that the appointment had already been sanctioned by the Board.

  Clogher Council and the Labourers Bill.
  MR. LONSDALE: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he has received a resolution passed by the Clogher Rural District Council, and endorsed by other public bodies, urging that Clause 18 of the Labourers Bill should be omitted or amended, and proposing that farmers should be enabled to borrow money on easy terms for the purpose of improving and erecting labourers' cottages on their farms; and whether he will consider the desirability of proposing such amendments of the Labourers Bill as will meet the wishes of a considerable body of public opinion in Ireland.
  MR. BRYCE: The Local Government Board have received the resolution in question, the purport of which is that the amount available for the erection of labourers' cottages by district councils should be devoted to the purpose of enabling occupiers of farms to borrow money on easy terms for the improvement of their own dwellings and outhouses as well as for the erection and improvement of labourers' cottages on their own farms. The question of improving farmers' houses is entirely outside the scope of the Labourers Bill, and the suggestion
  52
  as to making loans to farmers for the erection or improvement of labourers' cottages on their own holdings is not one which commends itself to the Government. In such case the important consideration that the loans should be secured by the rates would be entirely absent. I have no information that there is a considerable body of public opinion in Ireland in favour of the proposals mentioned.
  MR. KILBRIDEasked if the fundamental policy of the Labourers Act passed by Parliament, had not been to make the Irish labourer as independent of the farmer as the farmer had been made independent of the landlord?
  MR. BRYCE: No doubt that is so.

  Woodford Branch of the United Irish League.
  MR. LONSDALE: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he received a series of resolutions passed at a public meeting organised by the United Irish League at Woodford, county Galway, on May 13th, which contained incitements to boycotting and intimidation; whether a police shorthand writer was present at the meeting; and whether his notes of the speech of the Rev. P. M'Loughlin, who presided, have been submitted to the law officers of the Crown, with a view to legal proceedings being taken.
  MR. BRYCE: I have received a newspaper report containing resolutions which purport to have been passed at the meeting referred to. I am informed that no police shorthand writer was present at the meeting, and that no occasion arose for consulting the law officers of the Crown.

  Head Constable Spence, Royal Irish Constabulary.
  MR. LONSDALE: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he has received a report of the inquiry, hold at Abbeyleix, Queen's County, during the week ending May 26th, into the truth or otherwise of certain allegations, made by the hon. Member for the Leix Division, against; Head Constable Spence; and whether he will communicate to the House the nature

  53
  of the charges, and the results of the investigation.
  MR. BRYCE: An inquiry was held in reference to certain allegations regarding the conduct of Head-Constable Spence, and the result was to exonerate the Head Constable.

  Woodford Dog Licence Prosecution.
  MR. JOHN ROCHE: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether the policeman who charged James McMahon at the Wood-ford, county Galway, petty sessions, on May 14th, with having an unlicensed dog in his possession, admitted in court that he did not see any dog with McMahon, and did not say he knew he had a dog; and whether, seeing that in face of that admission, McMahon was fined 2s. and costs for having an unlicensed dog in his possession, he proposes to take any action in the matter.
  MR. BRYCE: I beg to refer the hon. Member to the replies which I gave on May 28th and Juno 27th †to his previous Questions on this subject. The sufficiency of the evidence is, as I have already stated, a matter for the magistrates, and I should be setting a formidable precedent were I to attempt to review their decision by entering into the details of the case.
  MR. KILBRIDE: Has this dog ever been found dead or alive?
  MR. BRYCE: I will inquire if the hon. Member wishes.

  Irish Lunacy Grants.
  CAPTAIN DONELAN: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether his attention has been called to a resolution adopted at a special meeting of the committee of management of the Cork District Lunatic Asylum on June 28th protesting against the proposed change in the Act 1 Edw. 7, c. 17; whether he is aware that this change would result in a loss to the Cork District Lunatic Asylum of from £500 to £600 per annum, and would throw back as paupers many men who have served their country in the
  † See (4) Debates, clviii., 83 (Mr. Reddy);
  54
  Army and Navy; and whether, if the Act be changed, steps will be taken to secure that the ordinary criminal lunatic be paid for on the same scale in Ireland as in England, viz., 14s. per week, this arrangement to have retrospective effect back to the date of the passing of the Act of 1884 for England.
  MR. BRYCE: I have received the resolution referred to, and I understand the prospective loss to the Cork District lunatic asylum, will be approximately as stated. I am informed that the payments made during the last three years to Lunatic Asylums in Ireland in respect of lunatic soldiers and sailors who are not criminals, amount in all to about £3,500 a year, which would not have been paid but for the verbal error in the Act of 1901. As regards the concluding paragraph of the Question, I may state that in Ireland the gross average cost is paid by the Government for criminal lunatics, and therefore if the amount were increased as suggested the asylums would receive for the maintenance of criminal lunatics more than their actual cost. I understand that the cost of maintenance is higher in English than in Irish asylums.
  MR. T. M. HEALYasked why the Irish Government did not deal with this matter instead of leaving it to the Treasury.
  MR. BRYCEreplied that it was a matter of departmental courtesy and etiquette. It would require more time than was afforded by the limits of an Answer to a Question to explain the relations between the two Departments.
  CAPTAIN DONELAN: But something ought to be done to remedy this injustice.
  MR. BRYCE: It does not appear from the answer supplied to me that there is an injustice.
  MR. FLYNN: Did any public body in Ireland ask for this alteration?
  MR. BRYCE: I cannot say.

  Knockaderry Evicted Tenant.
  MR. O'SHAUGHNESSY: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether

  55
  he is aware that J. Scanlan, of Kilgullinan, Knockaderry, in the county of Limerick, was evicted from his holding in the year 1887, which contains thirty-one-and-a-half acres, held by him at the yearly rent of £63 10s., valuation £44; that since the eviction he died, leaving his widow, Kate Scanlan, and family surviving; that the evicted farm is in the landlord's (Major B. Sheehy's) hands; and whether under these circumstances, he will say if the Estates Commissioners will approach the landlord with the view of settling this case and reinstating Mrs. Scanlan.
  MR. BRYCE: The Estates Commissioners have no knowledge of the facts of this case. They have received from Mrs. Kate Scanlan an application for reinstatement, and have approached the owner with a view to effecting a settlement, but have not yet received a reply from him. The local inspector will make further enquiries in due course.

  Limerick Evicted Tenants.
  MR. O'SHAUGHNESSY: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland if he can say whether the Estates Commissioners have yet sent an inspector to the county of Limerick to inquire into the cases of evicted tenants there; and, if they have not, will he explain the cause of delay.
  MR. BRYCE: The Estates Commissioners inform me that the inspector appointed to inquire into and report on the applications of evicted tenants from the counties Clare and Limerick is at present engaged on the Clare cases. He will in due course take up his enquiries into the Limerick cases. There are only a limited number of inspectors, and it has been necessary to allot more than one county to each.

  Irish Land Appeals.
  MR. O'SHAUGHNESSY: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether any of the Sub-Commissioners, whose term of office expired, gave evidence on behalf of the landlords before Mr. Justice Fitzgerald at Limerick last week, in the rehearing of cases appealed by the tenants from the Sub-Commission Court; and, if so, whether their valuation was higher than
  56
  the rents fixed by the Sub-Commissioners; and whether, when these ex Sub-Commissioners were appointed, he can say if it was on the ground of competency in being able to determine the value of land.
  MR. BRYCE: I am informed by the Land Commission that the cases referred to in the Question are still pending, the decision of the Court not having yet been pronounced. The Judicial Commissioner who heard the evidence in these cases is,. I understand, absent from Dublin on circuit.

  Donaghmore Glebe National School.
  MR. JAMES CAMPBELL: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland if he can state the reasons which induced the National Board of Education to withdraw the usual grants from the Donaghmore Glebe national school on the 31st March 1906, and to since refuse to restore these grants, although the average attendance of children was such as to entitle the school to a continuance of them; can he state the number of schools from which these grants have been withdrawn within the last twelve months; and how many of them were schools in connection with the Church of Ireland.
  MR. BRYCE: The Commissioners of National Education inform me that upon the resignation of the principal teacher of the Donaghmore Glebe national school it became necessary under the terms of Rule 179 to consider the general question of the educational facilities afforded to pupils of the district within reasonable distance of their homes. In view of the number of schools under Protestant management in operation and their proximity to the residences of the pupils of the Donaghmore Glebe school, the Commissioners considered that there was no necessity for the further continuance of that school and that there would be no justification for the expenditure of public funds upon its maintenance. The Commissioners, accordingly, decided to withdraw grants from the 30th June 1906, and they have declined to reverse this decision. The average daily attendance has not reached the minimum required under the rules dealing with the point at issue, for any quarter during the present year. The number of schools from which giants have been withdrawn within the past twelve

  57
  months was seventy-six, of which twenty-one were schools under the management of members of the Irish Church.

  Longford Post Office.
  MR. J. P. FARRELL: I beg to ask the Postmaster-General whether he will now direct that the wish of the people of the town of Longford, as expressed by their elected representatives, the urban council of Longford, to have the Longford Post Office kept open till 9 p.m. each week evening, be now complied with.
  MR. SYDNEY BUXTON: I fear that I can add nothing to the Answer which I gave the hon. Member on this subject on the 24th May last.†

  Dring Telegraph Line.
  MR. J. P. FARRELL: I beg to ask the Postmaster-General whether any progress is being made with the extension of the telegraph line to Dring, county Longford; and is it intended to continue the same to Aghnacliffe.
  MR. SYDNEY BUXTON: Telegraph business was commenced at Dring on the 27th ultimo. I am quite willing—as was my predecessor—to extend the line to Aghnacliffe if the necessary guarantee be given.

  Belfast Post Office.
  MR. SLOAN: I beg to ask the Postmaster-General if his attention has been called to the scenes enacted at the public counter of the Belfast Post Office on the 23rd ultimo, when the men of the 4th battalion Royal Irish Rifles blocked the counter, owing to the failure to have adequate provision made for the payment of their money orders, members of the Royal Irish Constabulary who were called in were totally unfit to cope with the disturbance, and public business had to be suspended for upwards of one hour; and will steps be taken to avoid a failure of this description in future.
  MR. SYDNEY BUXTON: I am inquiring into the facts, and will communicate with the hon. Member.

  Irish Trade Statistics.
  MR. BOLAND: I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade
  † See (4) Debates, cliv., 1251.
  58
  whether his attention has been called to the annual statement lately issued of the trade of the United Kingdom, and in particular to the value of imports and exports at Tralee and other Irish ports; and whether, in view of the statement that the imports at Tralee amounted in 1905 to a value of £108,440, and that the exports amounted only to £784, he will state what relation these figures boar to the actual trade of the port.
  THE PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD OF TRADE (Mr. LLOYD-GEORGE,): The figures to which the hon. Member refers are those of the direct trade of Irish ports with places abroad. I am unable to state what precise relation the figures quoted as regards Tralee bear to the whole trade of the port, there being no official records of the value of the trade of Irish ports carried on with or through ports in Great Britain. Some light, however, may be thrown on the matter by the statistics of entrances and clearances of shipping with cargo at Tralee which in 1905 were as follows:—

  Entrances.

  Clearances.

  Tons.

  Tons.

  In Foreign Trade

  14,037

  374

  In General Coasting Trade

  16,151

  31,170

  In Trade between Great Britain and Ireland

  42,072

  6,414

  MR. FLYNN: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the Customs authorities at Belfast, Dublin, Limerick, and Cork formerly made it their business to collect returns of imports and exports?
  MR. LLOYD-GEORGE: I am not.
  MR. FLAVIN: At all these ports there are three authorities from which the information could be obtained.

  Expiring Laws
  MR. O'MARA: I beg to ask the Prime Minister whether, in view of repeated declarations of Ministers, he proposes to include the Peace Preservation (Ireland) Act, or any other temporary Irish Coercion Act, in the Expiring Laws Continuance Bill this session.
  THE PRIME MINISTER AND FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY (Sir H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN,):

  59
  I can only repeat my previous Answers to this Question, namely, that I cannot as yet tell the hon. Member which we propose to do.
  MR. MEAGHER: When will you?
  SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN: I cannot say.

  Irish Home Rule.
  MR. LONSDALE: I beg to ask the Prime Minister whether the inquiry into the system of Government in Ireland, which was mentioned in His Majesty's gracious Speech from the Throne, it still proceeding; and whether any proposals have yet been formulated with a view to the introduction of a Bill next session to constitute a representative body in Dublin for the control of Irish finances, and the performance of such legislative functions as may be delegated to it.
  SIR H CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN: The hon. Gentleman need not be afraid that this question is escaping our attention. The subject is under the consideration of His Majesty's Government, but I am not in a position to make any statement on it.
  MR. LONSDALE: I am not afraid.

  Mr. Justice Grantham.
  MR. ARKWRIGHT: I beg to ask the Prime Minister whether, when he promised a day for the discussion of the conduct of Mr. Justice Grantham, he had before him the report of the Yarmouth trial; if not, whether he has now had an opportunity of perusing it; and whether he will make an early statement of the Government's attitude on the question, in view of the constitutional issues involved.
  SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN: The Government's attitude will be stated on Friday to the House. With respect to the first and second paragraphs of the Question, I shrink from creating a precedent which would justify hon. Members on other occasions in asking the Leader of the House not merely whether he has read a particular document, but when he actually did read it.

  BILLS OF EXCHANGE ACT (1882) AMENDMENT BILL.
  Reported from the Standing Committee on Trade, etc., without Amendment.
  Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 236.]
  Minutes of the Proceedings of the Standing Committee to be printed. [No. 236.]
  Bill to be considered To-morrow.

  LOCAL GOVERNMENT (SCOTLAND) ACT (1894) AMENDMENT BILL.
  Order for Second Reading To-morrow read, and discharged. Bill withdrawn.
  NEW BILLS.
    EDUCATION (SCOTLAND) ACT (1872) AMENDMENT HILL.
    " To amend The Education (Scotland) Act, 1872, presented by Mr. Leicester Harmsworth; supported by Mr. Weir, Mr. Rainy, Mr. Ainsworth, Major Anstruther-Gray, Mr. Annan Bryce, Mr. Cathcart Wason, and Mr. John Dewar; to be read a second time upon Monday next, and to be printed. [Bill 294.]
    RECORDERS, STIPENDIARY MAGISTRATES, AND CLERKS OF THE PEACE BILL.
    " To make provision as to the appointment of deputies for Recorders, Stipendiary Magistrates, and Clerks of the Peace, and for the temporary performance of the duties of those officers in cases of vacancies," presented by Mr. Herbert Samuel; to be read a second time Tomorrow, and to be printed. [Bill 295.]
    RIGHTS OF WAY (SCOTLAND) BILL.
    " To amend the law relating to Rights of Way in Scotland," presented by Mr. Gulland; supported by Mr. Annan Bryce, Mr. Crombie, Mr. Ramsay Macdonald, Major M'Micking, Mr. C. E. Price, and Mr. Dundas White; to be read a second time upon Tuesday next, and to be printed. [Bill 296.]

    FATAL ACCIDENTS AND SUDDEN DEATHS INQUIRY (SCOTLAND) BILL.
    Motion made arid Question proposed, "That the Order [June 15th] for committal of Fatal Accidents and Sudden Deaths Inquiry (Scotland) Bill to the Standing Committee on Law, etc., be discharged, and that the Bill be committed to the Standing Committee on Trade, etc."—(The Lord-Advocate.)
    MR. MITCHELL THOMSONobjected to the Motion upon the grounds that the Bill was essentially a legal measure and therefore it should be considered by the Standing Committee on Law. The House would see that the question at issue was really a very important technical question; it was nothing loss than whether, in order to carry out the principle of the Bill—about which they were not quarrelling— changes should be made in the machinery of the Scottish legal system, and if so, what those changes should be. A question of that kind was not a proper matter to be dealt with by the Standing Committee on Trade. On the other hand, the gentlemen on the Standing Committee on Law were, many of them, members of the legal profession and a great number of them were Scotsmen. He had examined the composition of the Standing Committee on Trade and he found that something less than 15 per. cent. were lawyers and a fewer number still were Scotsmen. It was absurd to submit a question such as the one before them to a Committee so composed. He knew they would be told that the step was being taken to avoid a congestion of business on one Committee and a total absence of business on another, but what he complained of was that the Government should have allowed such a state of things to come about. He asked the right hon. Gentleman not to press his Motion, because such a step would hardly fail to create a feeling of prejudice in Scotland.
    THE LORD ADVOCATE (Mr. THOMAS SHAW,)explained that the Law Committee were at present fully occupied with the Fertilisers and Feeding Stuffs Bill and that there were four other Bills to follow for their consideration, all of which would take some time. In fact the Standing Committee on Law was completely blocked. On the other hand
    62
    the Standing Committee on Trade was absolutely idle with nothing to do. Under these circumstances he thought one could hardly blame the Committee of Selection for asking the Standing Committee on Trade to get on with this Bill. The only observation which seemed to have any substance in it, put forward by the hon. Gentleman who opposed the Motion, was that the measure had nothing whatever to do with trade. He would point out that the Bill was one which advocated inquiry into all kinds of accidents in industrial occupations, and therefore he contended that it was very suitable for the consideration of the Standing Committee on Trade.
    SIR BRAMPTON GURDONsaid that the Dogs Bill, the Prevention of Corruption Bill, and the Irish Intoxicating Liquors' Bill all passed the Standing Committee on Trade in one day much to the credit of the promoters of the measures and the opposition, but it left the hands of the Committee practically free. It was very unfair to allow one Committee to be over burdened whilst another remained without anything to do. Further, he would remind Members opposite that there would be fifteen Members specially selected, and very carefully selected, who would be thoroughly competent to deal with the Bill. The Standing Committees had worked very well, and he did hope the House would be willing to make their task as light as possible.
    MR. A. J. BALFOURagreed that the work of the Grand Committee should be distributed as equally as possible, and no one would deny that the Standing Committee on Trade was composed of men of authority and position, who enjoyed the confidence of the House. The point his hon. friend behind him had raised, however, was not that one Committee should be over-burdened and another left idle, but that the Bill in question was clearly of a legal character only, and therefore should not be handed over to the consideration of the Standing Committee on Trade and taken away from the Standing Committee on Law. The arguments of the Lord Advocate, with regard to the commercial aspect of the Bill, was the most far-fetched he had ever

    63
    heard in his life. He presumed that the Bill was not confined to accidents in industrial working. He thought reform was needed in the Scottish practice, which in some respects was perhaps behind the English practice. That did not make it other than a legal Bill, and he thought his hon. friend was fully justified in pressing upon the House that the Bill should be sent to a Committee upon which there were a larger number of members competent to deal with this particular class of problem than they could expect to find on the Committee on Trade.
    THE PRIME MINISTER AND FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY (Sir H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN,)said the case put forward by the hon. Member opposite rested upon the supposition that the Standing Committee on Trade and the Standing Committee on Law were separated by a great gulf in that they were of a totally different character one from the other, and that one dealt with all legal questions, and the other with all trade questions. When the hon. Gentleman had been a little longer in the House he would know that the difference between the two Committees was purely nominal; he would further know that this action had been taken on the recommendation of the Committee of Selection, who had power to add to any Committee in respect of a particular Bill fifteen Members possessing special authority or having acquaintance with the class of subject to be dealt with. Let fifteen law Members be added to the Committee on Trade and they at once had a nice legal body. That would be a great disappointment, however, to all those who looked at this question not from a technically legal but from a trade point of view. The most important part of the Bill was to lay down a method of obtaining improvement in the conduct of industrial labour so as to avoid accidents, and it was not a mere question as to how the law officers of the Crown should deal with it; it was one which more particularly concerned the processes of trade. But he stood upon what he first said, that the distinction between the two Committees was most shadowy and practically
    64
    illusory. When the Committee of Selection had advocated a certain course, to endeavour to set it aside on the ground that a Bill involving legal points should go to the Committee on Law instead of the Committee on Trade was surely not a proceeding which deserved o much support as it had received from the Leader of the Opposition.
    MR. DALZIELexpressed regret that the Government had not thought fit to carry out the promise given at the commencement of the session that there should be a Scottish Grand Committee. Had that been done they would not now be discussing this matter, and the existing Grand Committee would not be so overburdened with work.
    MR. MITCHELL-THOMSONsaid he had not perhaps fully realised that this course was undertaken at the request of the Committee of Selection. As it had been made quite clear that this was not an action taken by the Government, whilst he should still protest as strongly as before against the action, he did not propose to ask the House to divide.
    Question put, and agreed to.

    EDUCATION (ENGLAND AND WALES) BILL.
    Considered in Committee.
    (In the Committee.)
    [Mr. EMMOTT (Oldham) in the Chair.]
    Clause 8:—
    THE CHAIRMANsaid the Amendments in the name of the hon. Baronet the Member for Oxford University †were not in order, as they, taken together, constituted an alternative clause which could only be moved if this clause were omitted.
    SIR WILLIAM ANSONsaid his Amendment was in
    † For general effect of the series of Amendments referred to, See second statement of Sir William Anson below.

    65
    substance the same as he was allowed to move on Clause 1, and was intended to give the owners of the schools as well as the local authority access to the Commission, He ventured to submit that that was within the scope of the clause.
    THE CHAIRMANsaid the first Amendment, taken with consequential Amendments, amounted to a proposition which practically made it compulsory upon the Board of Education to make a scheme on undefined lines whereas the clause was that the local education authority, or, if the Committee desired, the owners as well, might apply to the Commission to make a scheme, and these schemes were to be made in accordance with legal principles as regarded the trusts and under certain prescribed conditions. Amongst, other things they had to consider whether the carrying on of the school as a public elementary school was the best method of carrying out the trust, and would not make a scheme unless it was. That was a quite different proposal from the proposal of the hon. Baronet.
    SIR WILLIAM ANSONsubmitted that so far as his Amendment went on the Chairman's ruling it was in order. He was quite prepared to withdraw the words "Board of Education," which he had proposed to insert lower down. All he desired to do was to give owners access of the Commission. His proposal was—
    " Where the owners of any existing voluntary schools held under charitable trusts or the local education authority, desire to do so, they may, if no arrangement has been made with respect to the school house under this Act, at any time after January 1st apply to the Commission appointed under this Act."
    THE CHAIRMANsaid in that case the hon. Baronet had better take it at the point at which the same question was raised in the Amendment of the hon. Member for Kingston.
    MR. DILLONsaid that as he understood the ruling it would be out of order to move an Amendment which had the object of substituting the Board of Education for the Commissioners.
    THE CHAIRMANsaid his ruling was not that at all. He had to take the Amendments of the hon. Baronet altogether, and they constituted a new clause outside this discussion.
    SIR WILLIAM ANSONasked whether, if that were so, he would not be in order in moving to omit sub-section (1).
    THE CHAIRMANsaid that to omit the sub-section would be practically omitting the clause. What the hon. Baronet desired to do had better be left until they came to the end of the clause.
    MR. A. J. BALFOURthought it was a very important matter. It might be that to omit the sub-section would be to emasculate the clause, but was that a ground for ruling the suggestion out of order?
    THE CHAIRMANsaid that if the right hon. Gentleman would look at the clause he would see that the omission of the subsection would make nonsense of the clause.
    MR. ASHLEYmoved to insert after " charitable trusts," the words " and the Charity Commissioners are satisfied that the object of the trust is solely educational." At the present moment the Charity Commissioners decided whether a trust was educational or not, and they had made, he understood, very considerable progress in deciding the nature of these trusts. So far as he could gather, under the Bill this power of revision was to be removed from the Charity Commissioners. He saw no reason for that; hence his Amendment, which was designed to provide that the Commission, in the preparation of schemes, should only deal with buildings held under educational trusts, leaving untouched buildings held under charitable trusts. This would be only carrying out the statement of the Minister for Education on the First Reading of the Bill. There were many trusts that were not solely educational. He had in his mind the case of a school where the building was conveyed to the trustees for a great number of purposes and used as an elementary school, Sunday school, parish

    67
    hall, and gymnasium. If this clause was passed in its present form the trustees might not have the power to use the schoolroom for those useful purposes, and a great hardship would be done. The strongest support of the Amendment was to be found in the peech of the Minister for Education on the first Reading of the Bill. In that speech the right hon. Gentleman said that the owners of school premises included in Parts I. and II. were, of course, free agents and could refuse to allow the local education authority the use of their school premises, and could either keep open premises as a school without receiving any public money, close it altogether, pull it down, or do what they liked with it. After that statement how was it possible to ask the Committee to pass this clause, which put all schools held under charitable trusts under the Commission of three?
    Amendment proposed—
    " In page 5, line 6, after the word ' trusts,' to insert the words ' and the Charity Commissioners are satisfied that the object of the trust is solely educational.'"—(Mr. Ashley.)
    Question proposed, " That those words be there inserted."
    MR. T. M. HEALYthought the right hon. Gentleman would have taken the opportunity at the outset of this clause of stating the names of the Commissioners, because it might entirely modify the views of many Members if the names were satisfactory. In discussing this Amendment they were discussing the composition of a body which would have almost unique powers.
    THE PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD OF EDUCATION (Mr. BIRRELL,)said he was only waiting until he had an opportunity according to the rules of debate of informing the Committee of the names of the Commissioners. Before doing so he should just like to remind the Committee of what the duties of those three Gentlemen would be. The Commission had often been spoken of in the country as if the three Gentlemen would constitute an engine of compulsion— that was to say, that they should have powers unknown to the law of compelling
    68
    schools to accept terms which they might be unwilling to accept. He desired to make it perfectly plain there was no element of compulsion in the matter. The duty of those three gentlemen would simply be to decide, according to the existing rules of law and equity, as under stood by the recognised courts of law, whether or not—
    THE CHAIRMAN: The right hon. Gentleman appears to be travelling beyond the Amendment.
    MR. T. M. HEALYasked if he might move the omission of the sub-section in order that the right hon. Gentleman might mention the names of the Commissioners.
    THE CHAIRMANsaid it was quite open to the right hon. Gentleman to mention the names, but upon this particular Amendment he could not allow any comment or discussion on the question of the Commission.
    MR. T. M. HEALYsaid it had been the common practice of Parliament to omit the first word of a clause to enable a debate to take place on the general question, although the omission of the word made nonsense of the clause.
    THE CHAIRMANsaid the hon. and learned Gentleman must know that they were discussing an Amendment beyond the first word of the clause, and the Amendment was to insert words which did not give rise to the general question of the clause. The President of the Board of Education, however, might give the names of the Commissioners now.
    MR. DILLONhoped that whatever the order of the debate was to be it would be laid down and applied to all alike. If the Minister for Education was to make a general statement—
    THE CHAIRMAN: I stopped the right hon. Gentleman from making it.
    MR. T. M. HEALYasked if it would not be in order for the hon. Member to withdraw his Amendment, and for some one to move the omission of the word " where." This was the most

    69
    important matter in the whole debate, and he submitted that in a case in which the guillotine descended they were entitled to every consideration.
    MR. ASHLEYasked leave to withdraw his Amendment in order to move the omission of the first word of the clause, so as to enable the right hon. Gentleman to make his statement.
    MR. DILLONdid not think the House of Commons ever discussed a Bill under greater difficulties. As the time allowed was extremely brief every facility ought to be given to the Committee to discuss the clause with some knowledge. Unless they got a general statement from the Minister for Education at the beginning of this clause the discussion prior to that statement would be waste of time.
    THE CHAIRMAN: Do I understand the hon. Member to ask leave to withdraw his Amendment?
    MR. ASHLEY: On condition that the omission of the word " where " may be moved.
    THE CHAIRMANasked whether it was the pleasure of the Committee that the Amendment be withdrawn.
    Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
    MR. T. M. HEALYmoved the omission of the word " where."
    Amendment proposed—
    "In page 5, line 5, to omit the word 'where.' "—(Mr. T. M. Healy.)
    Question proposed, " That the word ' where ' stand part of the clause."
    MR. A. J. BALFOURsaid he was entirely in favour of this course, but he would ask the Chairman whether he had not taken objection to some observations he made on the ground that his proposal would make nonsense of the clause, and whether this Amendment would not have that effect?
    THE CHAIRMANsaid he understood that this precise course had been allowed before under such circumstances as these,
    70
    and that was why he now allowed it. It was a different matter from the proposal of the hon. Baronet.
    MR. BIRRELLsaid he could assure the Committee that he had no other desire than to make the plainest possible statement in the shortest possible time in order to enable the question to be discussed. But before announcing the names of the three gentlemen who had kindly consented to become Commissioners, he wanted to make it plain what their duties would be under the clause as it stood. Their duty would be to determine all questions brought before them by the local education authorities, aye or no, whether, having regard to the particular trust of the particular school upon which their opinion was asked, they thought that the school was bound by its trust, according to the existing rules of law and equity, to transfer itself to the local education authority in view of the provision of Clause 1. In other words, they would have to determine the principle cy pres if they thought honestly there was no other course open to the trustees of the school to carry out their educational trust. Assuming that they found that this trust was primarily educational, that their first obligation was to keep open in the parish or village a school for the education of the adult or infant population, if they found that as a fact upon the trust, they would then have to ask themselves this question, Ought the school, in order to fulfil the trust in the best possible way, to transfer itself to the local education authority? That was the kind of question, and the only kind of question, which would be submitted to them. These trusts varied very much. Some of them were what he called loose trusts—that was to say, they enabled the owners to apply the premises and property to other purposes than those of providing the young of the parish with education. All those trusts, of course, were open trusts, and he could not suppose that they would be brought before the Commission at all. What he contemplated was that the trusts which would be brought before the Commission would be what he called tight trusts—that was to say, trusts the primary object of which was educational and for the benefit of the children in the

    71
    particular parish. Then it would be for those gentlemen to decide, aye or no, according to the principles of law and equity as they exist now—not as invented by them—whether or not the only proper way of fulfilling the primary object of the trust in order to continue the school as a school was to transfer itself to the authority. And now he was in a position to give the names of the Commissioners. The Right Hon. Sir Arthur Wilson, K.C.I.E. He was a member of the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council, and everybody who had practised before him would agree that he was one of the most eminent judges we had in this country. Sir Hugh Owen. It was not needful to record his services. He was well known to every educationist in this country. He was the author of the standard work upon education and upon trusts. He had the whole subject at his fingers' ends as a practical man. Although he was by profession a lawyer, the labour of his life had been more in connection with our Civil Service. As everybody knew who had been brought into contact with him, he was a fair-minded man, who had a complete technical knowledge of the whole complicated subject of our education. The third name he proposed was one well known to hon. Gentlemen opposite. It was that of Mr. Henry Wilson Worsley-Taylor, K.C., who was a lawyer of very considerable distinction, and whom everybody knew as a most fair-minded man. Mr. Worsley-Taylor sat in the last Parliament on the other side of the House, and he was told that he made a very great impression on both sides of the House as an exceedingly fair-minded man. He had legal acumen and legal knowledge. And he (Mr. Birrell) was satisfied that these three gentlemen who had very kindly consented to constitute this tribunal would discharge their duties in a manner which would secure the perfect confidence of the whole country. Their duty, as he had already indicated, was the legal duty of administering the law as it existed, and no suspicion whatever could by any possibility attach to them.
    MR. A. J. BALFOURdid not entirely agree with the right hon. Gentleman that the clause as it stood carried out the intention which he had expressed; but he did not propose to discuss that at the
    72
    present time. He only rose now to I say that the names the right hon. Gentleman had given the Committee were those of most distinguished gentlemen, and he ventured to say that no men of higher character could have been chosen.
    MR. T. M. HEALYasked leave to withdraw his Amendment.
    MR. DILLONasked whether they were going to enter on the discussion of the clause on the assumption that it would remain in the Bill and be the accepted mode of procedure. There was an alternative procedure before the Committee, and it would have been well if they had been able at the outset to compare the merits of the two proposals. He did not desire to raise a general discussion now, but he hoped that at a later stage it would be in order to move an Amendment on which they would be permitted to compare the merits of the two methods of procedure.
    MAJOR SEELYthought it would be convenient if the Committee could be informed where, if anywhere, the right hon. Gentleman could give an explanation as to the relative merits of this clause and of the proposed new Clause 3. It would be most unfortunate if through the curtailment of the debate by the Closure they were to go away from this point now and have no opportunity hereafter of discussing the relative merits of the two clauses which contained the most vital principles of the Bill. He would like the Chairman to state where an opportunity could be given to the right hon. Gentleman to make a statement.
    MR. BLAKEalso urged the necessity of preserving an opportunity for discussing a proposal which was put on the paper in pursuance of a pledge given by the Minister for Education to bridge over a gap which he acknowledged to exist in the provisions of the Bill. The present course would render it almost impossible for the right hon. Gentleman to redeem his pledge, because they could not suppose that this clause had been brought forward as a sham.
    THE CHAIRMANsaid he had not yet considered the Amendments sufficiently to say if there would be a convenient point at which to take the discussion asked for, and it was difficult to say how far a discussion on something not before the Committee could be allowed on some of the Amendments proposed on the clause. He thought the Committee should now allow this Amendment to be withdrawn.
    Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
    MR. ASHLEYmoved an Amendment to provide that the Charity Commissioners should decide whether the object of a trust was solely educational.
    Amendment proposed—
    " In page 5, line 6, after the word ' trusts,' insert the words 'and the Charity Commissioners are satisfied that the object of the trust is solely educational.'"—(Mr. Ashley.)
    Question proposed, " That those words be there inserted."
    MR. BIRRELLsaid the point really was this. The hon. Member had spoken of the application being to the Board of Education, whereas it was to the Commission of three. Although, of course, he quite agreed that the Charity Commissioners had by virtue of Act of Parliament the power to determine whether or not a charitable trust was wholly or partially educational, the real reason why the Government established this Commission was that there were a number of questions they might have to determine. Were they to go to the Charity Commission they would have to reconstitute it by appointing temporary members. These applications might be very numerous, and the Commission was established in order that they might deal with them rapidly de die in diem.
    SIR WILLIAM ANSONasked whether the right hon. Gentleman had considered how far the power given to the Commission to determine whether or not a charity was educational, conflicted with the Board of Education Act, which gave to the Charity Commissioners the power to determine that question.
    MR. BIRRELLsaid his attention had been called to that, and he was informed that there was nothing inconsistent with that Act in the present proposal.
    MR. DILLONasked whether he was right when he understood the right hon. Gentleman to say that this clause would have no application to schools owned without trusts, and schools the trusts of which were not; primarily educational. If that were so a vast body of schools would not come within the clause. Was it not necessary to insert words to make that clear?
    MR. BIRRELLthought he had already made that plain in his opening speech. It was very difficult in an Act of Parliament to use the language that could be used in a speech to distinguish between the different kinds of trusts. It was, ha thought, perfectly plain that the clause was only applicable by its language to those schools the trusts of which were of such a character that they could not properly be diverted from educational purposes. Where there was a private owner, he did not come under the principle of trusts; and where it was plain that a school could not be any longer carried on as a school solely belonging to a particular denomination, and might be turned into something else, that would not come within the scope of the clause. He would, however, consider the point of the hon. Gentleman, and if he could make the matter plainer he would do so. His only object was that it should be plain. It would be the task of the Commission, by applying the doctrine of cy pres, to ascertain whether a school could be carried on otherwise than by being transferred to the local education authority.
    MR. A. J. BALFOUR, whilst acknowledging the lucidity of the speech of the President of the Board of Education, complained that there was a want of correspondence between the speech the right hon. Gentleman delivered the other day and his speeches on other portions of the Bill with the Bill itself. If the right hon. Gentleman would look at Clause 1 he would see that the observations of the

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    hon. Member for East Mayo were absolutely justified. The right hon. Gentleman had said in his speech, or certainly implied, that the Commission were only to deal with trusts which were primarily of an educational character. The word education, however, was not, he thought, mentioned in the first sub-section. The right hon. Gentleman did not, according to his speech, desire that the Commission of three should deal with loose trusts; but the first sub-section required the Commission to make schemes even for such trusts. It was plain that there was a divergence between the speech of the right hon. Gentleman and the wording of the clause. He would not say that the wording was obscure, but it was very wide. If the right hon. Gentleman would look at it he would see that, taking a concrete; case, if the managers or owners of a school with a loose trust refused to come to an arrangement with the local education authority, then the local authority were empowered by the Bill to bring the case of that school before the Commission. The three Commissioners were required to take a scheme " with respect to the mode in which effect is to be given to the trusts of the school house in the future." Therefore, so far from the action of the three Commissioners being confined and restricted under this clause, they were ordered and directed in every case where a general trust was brought before them to treat the trust and make a scheme for it. He accordingly hoped that the sub-section would be amended.
    THE ATTORNEY-GENERAL (Sir JOHN WALTON,)did not think there was much foundation for the apprehension which had just been expressed. If the right hon. Gentleman the Member for the City of London would look at sub-section (2) as well as sub-section (1) he would find it perfectly clear that all that was intended was to transfer a department of the administration of charitable trusts from the courts to the Commission. It was only in so far as an educational trust was a charitable trust that this section proposed to deal with it, and in order to be a charitable trust it must be one which cast a definite and precise obligation upon its trustees. If the trust came within the category of trusts in regard to education,
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    the obligation in regard to education must be clear and precise. The object of the clause was to prevent existing voluntary schools in such cases becoming derelict. Owing to our educational legislation, a number of those schools would be unable to discharge their duty unless they came in under the general scheme of education. Under the law as it stood it would be the duty of the Charity Commissioners, and in a humble capacity his duty as Attorney-General, to prepare a scheme providing for the administration of the property on lines approximating as nearly as modern conditions would allow to the obligations specified in the trust. The court would be invited to sanction the scheme. This clause proposed to take that jurisdiction from the courts and vest it in a special Commission. The reason for the change was that if the courts were left to administer these schemes they might, their hands being full of other work, be an indefinite time in getting through them. The Commission was constituted subject to a very precise injunction. It was not to apply a new theory of law, but was to be governed by the doctrines which the Court of Chancery was in the habit of applying. The new machinery, he thought, would be much more useful than the old machinery, and it would act quickly. It provided, he considered, a very desirable solution of the difficulty which it was intended to meet.
    MR. A. J. BALFOURsaid the learned Attorney-General had made an excellent Second Reading speech in defence of the clause, and he had nothing to say against the hon. and learned Gentleman's survey of the policy of the clause, but contended that he had misapprehended the point which had been raised. The President of the Board of Education had drawn a distinction between loose trusts and tight trusts. All he had asked was that the schools under the loose trusts—
    SIR JOHN WALTON: The clause would not touch them.
    MR. A. J. BALFOURsaid the subsection applied to every school under a charitable trust, and a loose trust was a charitable trust.
    SIR JOHN WALTONsaid as he understood a loose trust, it was not properly a trust at all. It was a trust that could not be administered on account of its vagueness. A loose trust where there were large discretionary powers which could not be precisely administered would not, he should think, come within the scope of the clause.
    MR. A. J. BALFOUR: It is a charitable trust, is it not?
    SIR JOHN WALTON: It is not a trust at all.
    MR. A. J. BALFOURsaid that in that case the speech of the President of the Board of Education, which seemed so lucid, became utterly meaningless. There seemed to be in substance no great difference of opinion on this subject. If words were introduced making it clear that the sub-section did not apply to loose trusts, he did not see why the discussion need be prolonged.
    MR. T. M. HEALYsaid the Minister for Education in his speech on the Second Heading made it clear, so far as he understood, that the Bill would not apply to the case in respect of which the Amendment was moved. He would remind the Attorney-General that they might have, not a loose trust, but a mixed trust—in one and the same deed a trust for educational purposes and a trust purely for recreation or amusements. This amendment was intended to meet such a case. That would not be a loose trust in any sense. A man might leave a block of buildings in Whiteacre —one-half of the buildings to be for the village school and the other half for a swimming bath or recreation hall. The use of the building might be absolutely indivisible. In introducing this Bill on April 9th, the Minister for Education said that, in the case of schools privately owned and those held in perpetuity partly for a non-educational use, the owners would, of course, be free agents altogether. Then what answer was there to this Amendment? The Amendment proposed that in regard to those mixed trusts the owner should be a free agent. The three Commissioners were to act as a sort of chapel of ease to the Court of
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    Chancery, and act on the same principles as the Court of Chancery would. But as the clause was drawn it might be the instrument of great injustice. Who was to bear all the expense? Would the Commissioners: sit in London? If so, witnesses with regard to property in Northumberland would have to be brought to London and kept here at the expense of the owners. If this court was to be a perambulating one, then the owner would have to bear the expense of taking eminent counsel down to Northumberland. There was a grievance either way. The education authority would be upon velvet, because they would have the rates to draw upon. There ought to be some provision in the j clause for the enormous costs of these proceedings; there was none. This clause, which was to bring about the most tremendous changes in our judicature, was as absolutely barren of canvas as the mast of a ship. The Court of Chancery never could act, and never had acted, upon the principles here laid down. It would lead the county councils into a further dance with the money of the ratepayers.
    MR. ASTBUKYsaid he had listened to the speech of the hon. and learned Member for North Louth with the greatest amazement. The most dangerous thing they could do in an Act of Parliament was to try to limit in words the particular scope of the object they had in view, provided they could make that object clear without a verbal definition. The clause made it perfectly clear that trusts which were not primarily educational could not be interfered with. The Commission could not act except in the case of the school-house of an existing voluntary school, which was subject to charitable trusts. The local education authority therefore could not act except in regard to an existing voluntary school which was the subject of a voluntary trust. It was suggested that there were existing voluntary schools subject to charitable trusts which might be called loose trusts, but before the local education authority could deal with such trusts they must relate to existing voluntary schools, subject to such charitable trusts. Then the clause stated that when no

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    arrangement had been come to in 1907 the local education authority might apply to the Commission to give effect to these trusts in accordance with the principles followed by the Chancery Courts. If there was one thing more clear than another it was that the Court of Chancery would deal with the actual nature and character of the trust. Unless it was a defined trust the court could not deal with it. If it were a loose trust, in the sense suggested without this clause at all, if the Attorney-General were to apply for a scheme in regard to the school, it was perfectly obvious that the court could make no scheme at all. But the words of this clause were much more limited than hon. Members supposed. If hon. Members would look at sub-section (2), (b), they would see it was provided that the Commission, if they were of opinion that the use of the schoolhouse for the purpose of a public elementary school by the local education authority in accordance with this Act was the best mode of giving effect to that trust, might by the scheme make provision for the purpose, subject to certain conditions. He could not conceive how they could have anything plainer. If they had a school subject to trusts and in which there was difficulty as to the arrangements to be made between the trustees and the local authority, it was obviously for the benefit of those schools that they should have the rate aid. If that was to be secured in the absence of agreements it could only be secured under such a scheme as this by an application to an existing or newly-constituted court. It carried out the doctrine of cypres. This explanation would, he hoped, do away with any difficulty or haziness which might be in the minds of hon. Members as to what kind of trusts could be dealt with. They could only be trusts for carrying on a school which was a public elementary school. Allusion had been made to mixed trusts. He did not know himself any voluntary schools which were subject to mixed trusts, but if the two branches of mixed trusts were inseparable then it was perfectly clear from this clause that they could not be dealt with. [An HON. MEMBER: Then why not accept the Amendment.] He thought the Amendment would limit the beneficial effect which hon. Members opposite
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    and the Government wished to derive from this clause. The real object of the clause was this. In the case of a school subject to such a charitable trust, it could not be diverted to any purpose other than education. If that school was not taken over by the local authority what was to happen to it? They did not want the school to be lost, and unless it was taken over and worked as a public elementary school it would be lost, in the sense that it would get no Government or rate aid at all, and the whole object of the clause was that where they found schools subject to a trust of that kind a scheme could be made which would enable them to get Government and rate assistance in order that they might continue educational work in the future. If it were not for this clause what would happen? These schools would not be able, in consequence of their trust deeds, to be worked in the absence of agreements by the local authority. There was no trust deed in the country which enabled a school to be continued by a public authority without such a clause as this. If the Bill were passed without such a deed, and if it were not a wide clause, there would be a number of schools which could not give public elementary education under Clause 1, or be public elementary schools at all under the circumstances contemplated. In those cases the Attorney-General would be compelled to go to the Court of Chancery, and the school would be wound up or sold, and the proceeds applied for educational purposes under the doctrine of cypres. Another point made was that these charitable schools would be subjected to very great expense under this scheme, but it seemed to him that very great expense would be saved to them. All these schools must go somewhere to obtain a scheme. The Court of Chancery had jurisdiction over them, and they would have just as much expense and trouble, if not more, in arguing their case before that tribunal as they would have in doing so before this Commission. The Commission would not sit in inconvenient places or at inconvenient times, and it would save a great many of the trusts from extinction.
    SIR WILLIAM ANSONcould not help thinking that

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    they wanted some sort of words such as those contained in the Amendment. He had listened to the speeches of the Minister for Education and of the Attorney-General, and he quite admitted that the intentions of the Minister for Education were excellent, but his speech did not correspond with the clause. The right hon. Gentleman said that but for this provision these schools might be left derelict, but there was nothing in the clause to prevent their being left in that position if the local authority wished. Then the right hon. Gentleman said that there was no difficulty in the definition of charitable trusts. But what about the loose trusts, to which allusion had been made? A loose trust, they were told by the Attorney-General, was no trust at all. The Minister for Education said that it was a trust, but it was not one which was primarily or necessarily educational. He took it that a loose trust was a mixed trust, and it would be necessary for this Commission to define it, unless there were words in the Bill to prevent them. It was difficult to say what was an educational trust and what was not. If the Commission once started out to define what was an educational trust they must invade the province of the Charity Commissioners as denned in this Act of 1899. But apart from the question of mixed or loose trusts, what he wished to ascertain was what security they had that particular trusts would not be broken. The local authority alone had access to the Commission, and the agreement was to be one on the part of the local authority. The trustees might not be a party to the agreement arrived at. The term "a bilateral agreement" had been used, but he thought it was wrongly used, because one party only was agreeing and the other party had no voice in it. These were points which he thought ought to be cleared up. He thought they did need some definition of the expression "charitable trusts," and some clear indication of what were to be the duties of the Commission in respect to trusts which were loosely defined. He did not mean trusts partly educational and partly not, but trusts for giving education in connection with religious instruction of some special character.
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    That was a point which would recur again and again in the course of the clause, and which he thought ought to be disposed of. He entirely agreed that the Commission was composed of gentlemen in whom all on the Opposition side of the House had confidence, but they did wish to have their powers defined, because they would have to deal with an enormous number of schools in the country, and it was desirable that they should feel that security was obtained for them.
    MR. BIRRELLsaid he would gladly insert a definition of charitable trusts in the Bill if he honestly thought there was any good purpose to be served by doing so. But a definition always had a very limiting effect. He remembered Cardinal Newman saying that the definition of Papal infallibility had the effect of restricting its effect in people's minds rather than of extending it. Who w is to say, having regard to the hundreds of varieties of verbal expressions in trust deeds, what was a loose and what was a tight trust? He could not undertake to give any definition in a matter of that kind which would prove satisfactory. He knew, of course, that there were certain trusts that were so obviously loose that if it was found the school could no longer be carried on as a denominational school it would be within the power of the trustees to say that it could no longer be continued as an educational trust, but they would exercise the alternative trust. They were empowered to say that one set of provisions authorised them to carry on a school and another set of provisions authorised them to do something else. That was a kind of tract over which this provision could have no kind of effect, and the words upon which hon. Members could rely in such cases, and upon which he also relied would be found in sub-section (b). The words referred to an educational trust and if the local education authority were so ill-advised as to bring " a loose trust " before the Commissioners, they would suffer for it in not being able to get the use of the school. All that they were seeking to acquire was the continued use of particular premises for a particular purpose—namely, for the use of elementary

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    schools; and if the " mixed trusts " did not interfere with that object when the schools received State and rate aid, he thought that they were unlikely to interfere in the future. The Government were seeking to perpetuate the educational succession of these schools, and to enable them to go on as public elementary schools under the same conditions as before. All that the Commissioners would do would be to see whether or not the public elementary educational work was to continue in the school under the ægis of the local education authority; and this would depend on the nature of the trust. This subject had received very careful consideration.
    MR. WYNDHAMsaid he quite admitted that the introduction of very precise words in an Act of Parliament often led to a result quite different from that desired, but the desire of the Opposition for precision on this point was a very natural one. Earlier in the afternoon they were creating under the clause an elaborate compulsory tribunal to come into operation where negotiations had been carried on and had not been concluded. That was what they thought, and the words that had been complained of were simply used because of the belief that where the owners of the school had found it impossible to come to an arrangement this tribunal came in and acted as an umpire against whose decision there was no appeal. The speeches of the Government and their supporters had left the Committee in great doubt, not only as to the effect, but as to the object, of the clause. The right hon. Gentleman would have made the purpose of the clause clear if he had touched on Clause 2, sub-section (2) which gave the trustees all the powers, protections, and advantages which the Committee had been told were to be found in this clause. What became of any protection given by Clause 3 unless the Committee made it precise by the introduction of this Amendment? The cumulative effect of Clause 1 and subsequent provisions had really deprived owners and trustees of these schools of any advantages of any sort or kind. What became of the school belonging to private owners or of schools under " loose trusts? " Were they to be frozen out?
    MR. PERKSsaid that as far as the Wesley an schools were concerned there was some anxiety to know how the clause would operate. At the same time, however, they had no reason to fear its operation. The suggestion in the Amendment that the Charity Commissioners should be called in-into action before the local authorities acted in order to decide whether a trust was wholly educational would, in the opinion of the Weslevan Education Committee, cause unnecessary delay and expense. In the opinion of the Wesleyan Committee it would be quite satisfactory, in connexion with many hundreds of their schools, leave to the Commission the duty of stating whether the trusts were educational or otherwise. The Minister for Education had just stated that, if those trusts were not distinctly educational trusts, it would not be within the purview of the Commission to deal in any way whatever with the revenues of such charitable endowments. In other words, the Commission would have no jurisdiction. But what they were really concerned to know was what was going to happen with reference to some of their schools as to which it was difficult to say whether they were, or were not, educational trusts, and whether the schoolhouses did even come within the operation of the clause. In connection with their places of worship they had in many cases buildings on adjacent sites, costing in many cases £5,000 or £10,000; buildings which were erected partly for purposes of secular education but which were largely used for the purposes of Sunday schools as well as day schools. He presumed that under the clause it would be open to the local education authority to pick and choose between the denominational schools. The Weslevan Education Committee did not object to that; but then came the question, what was to happen to the school that was left. As far as he understood it, it was open to the local education authority, not having taken the school, to say they would take the trustees of that voluntary school before the Commission, that they were of opinion that something might be gained for the locality from the educational standpoint by compelling the Commission to settle what was

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    to be the future application of the educational endowments of that particular school. It was important to the Wesleyan Education Committee to know whether he had rightly interpreted that clause. He wanted the Minister for Education to answer, if he would, these two questions:—(1) Whether the local education authority had power to summon the trustees of a Wesleyan school, or a Wesleyan building which was supposed to be impressed with an educational trust, before the new tribunal to settle what was to be the future application of any educational endowments connected with that school, even though the school building was a part of a Wesleyan Methodist church property and enterprise; and (2) supposing the Wesleyan Church decided to run one of its voluntary schools in future as a private venture school, as a State-aided or some other type of school, would the conditions under which that school would be run in future come in any way whatever, on the application of any educational endowment appertaining to that school, under the jurisdiction of the new tribunal?
    MR. CAVEasked the right hon. Gentleman whether he would not put an end to the matter by inserting, after the words " charitable trusts," the words " for educational purposes." That would put into the Bill words which the right hon. Gentleman had used in the debate. There were many cases of buildings held upon charitable trusts not being educational trusts, out which were in fact used for educational purposes. In cases of that kind the point was, was the Commission to have jurisdiction or not?
    MR. BIRRELL: No.
    MR. CAVEsaid he quite understood that that was the right hon. Gentleman's view, but he wanted to have it made perfectly clear in the Bill itself, so that it should not be in the power of the local authority to hale before the Commission, whether they would or would not, those schools which, in the words of the speech of the right hon. Gentleman on the First Reading,
    " admit of a non-educational use."
    MR. DILLONexpressed the opinion that, if the clause were brought into harmony with the speech of the Minister for Education, it would relieve a good deal of anxiety. He was concerned with loose trusts, which largely prevailed no matter what the Court of Chancery might think on the matter—trusts which, primarily educational, gave to the trustees full discretion to use the schools for other purposes. Let them take the case of a trust of a Catholic school where the deed said that the building was to be used for the purposes of a Catholic school or any other religious purpose. If that was not an educational trust, what would it be? He would like to be assured by some clearer words that a school could not be captured as an educational trust notwithstanding the fact that there was an alternative. The speech of the Minister for Education would come as a surprise to many people in the country.
    MR. BIRRELL: I thought I had made it perfectly plain that, under the scope of this clause, only those schools could be compelled to permit the use of their premises for the purposes of a public elementary school when it was quite plain that that was the only way in which they could discharge their trust.
    MR. DILLONsaid that, unfortunately, many of them had come to regard the right hon. Gentleman's speeches as one thing and the clauses as another. Unless there was some more clear language used it was not unnatural that there should be a good deal of nervousness and anxiety about this clause. He had studied it very carefully and it appeared to give them no protection. Where there was an alternative discretion these Commissioners might not consider the use of the building as a primary school as the best mode provided for under sub-section (b) and hand over the school for that purpose even if the trustees objected. He thought the case which had been made out was unanswerable. He was inclined to think that the best means of meeting this difficulty was by a proviso. Surely the Minister for Education did not argue that because it was difficult to find words to limit the discretion of the Commissioners they must never attempt to do so.
    MR. HERBERTthought it might be taken as an indisputable proposition that the Commissioners would not interfere with any trustees or any trusts which could be properly carried out. Let them take the case put forward by the hon. Member for East Mayo where trustees held a building upon a trust for Catholic educational purposes or to sell it or use the building for any other purpose. That was a trust which the trustees could carry out without applying it to educational purposes, and in that case no order could be made requiring the trustees to apply it for educational purposes, because they would be met by the trustees saying that their trust gave them a complete discretion to apply the building either to educational or to other purposes. The Commissioners would have jurisdiction only in eases where the property was held upon trusts which obliged the trustees to apply it, to some extent, to educational purposes. The object, of this clause was to meet the case which arose owing to the passing of Section 1, which said to trustees holding premises upon trust: " We will not give you any money unless you come under public control." The result would be that a large number of schools under educational trusts would not be able to be carried on by the trustees for educational purposes at all, and the object of the Bill was not to interfere with trusts, but to enable trustees to carry out their trusts. In the case of an educational trust, the object of those interested would be that the trust should be carried out in the most beneficial manner. The position which had to be met was this. Supposing this clause was not passed, and it was left, to the ordinary law, and Clause 1 came into operation, no further public money would be given to those schools held upon trust and they could not be carried on. Consequently the local authority would have to make provision by building new schools for the children in that particular district, with the result that a large amount of public money would be spent in building new schools to accommodate the children now attending the trust schools who would have to come out
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    of them as soon as Clause 1 came into operation. The trustees would then be holding schools upon trusts which they could not carry out and the Charity Commissioners would come down upon them and they would have to form some scheme for carrying out those trusts. Of course they could not do it so beneficially if the educational part of their trust had been fulfilled by the expenditure of public money in building new schools. The result would be that in a large number of instances the schools which could have been transferred most beneficially could not be transferred at all for that purpose, and they would have to be dealt with in some other manner not so beneficial. The hon. Member for the University of Oxford seemed to think that these three Commissioners would make orders behind the backs of the trustees. He would remind the hon. Member that the three Commissioners would be acting in a judicial capacity, and it was inconceivable that they would make any order in respect of any schools or trusts without giving full opportunities to the trustees to be heard. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Dover had spoken very disrespectfully of subsection (a.). He wished to point out that that sub-section was a necessary part of the machinery for dealing with the matter according to the scheme of the Bill. The object of the Commission was not to let schools become derelict and allow them to be dealt with before the appointed day arrived, so that they might know whether to build new schools or take over the old schools. If the trustees said they intended to carry on the school that would be a complete answer to the jurisdiction of the Commissioners. But the Commissioners would have to be satisfied that the trustees bona fide intended and were able to fulfil their trusts by continuing the school, and were nut merely attempting to make the Act unworkable. The question whether the trustees bona fide intended to fullil the trusts would often be a very difficult one, and might give rise to expensive litigation unless there were some definite rule laid down to guide the Commissioners.

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    in determining the matter. The object of sub-section (1) was to guide the Commissioners and to tell them that they were not to treat a declaration that they were going to carry on the school as bona fide unless they were able to show a good and sufficient guarantee that the school would be effectively continued for, at least, five years. That was a matter of machinery enacted merely in the interests of economy and to save the enormous litigation which might arise over that question. With regard to the stricture passed by the hon. and learned Member for North Louth, of course the Commissioners would act in accordance with the rules which were usual in the Court of Chancery, and they would have something corresponding to the preliminary investigation in Chambers. They would not bring down expensive counsel to deal with the matter until they had had a preliminary inquiry and determined whether any important and difficult questions arose.
    MR. T. M. HEALY: Where is the matter provided for?
    MR. HERBERTsaid the Commissioners would provide their own procedure.
    MR. T. M. HEALY: Who is going to provide the money for clerks and officers?
    MR. HERBERTsaid he had not the precise provision in his mind, but he had no doubt it was provided for. He was sure they need not trouble themselves about that, for the money would be provided to enable the procedure to be properly carried out. The Amendment, as he understood it, would provide for an appeal to two public bodies instead of one—first to the Charity Commissioners to determine whether the object of a trust was educational; and then, if they determined that it was, there would be a second appeal to the three Commissioners. It appeared to him that the Amendment would double the expense and double the delay in applications for schemes.
    MR. RAWLINSONsaid the hon. Member who had just spoken, and also the hon. Member for
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    Southport, appeared to have forgotten altogether sub-section (2) of Clause 2, which provided that the trustees under any trust deed had full power to transfer their school to the local education authority, apart from any question as to the application, to be made to the Commissioners for a scheme under Clause 8. Therefore Clause 8 did not come upon the scene at all until the trustees had been unable or unwilling to come to an arrangement with the local education authority. Clause 8 provided that the local education authority—
    " May, if no arrangement has been made with respect to the schoolhouse under this Act, at any time after the first day of January, one thousand nine hundred and seven, apply to the Commission appointed under this Act to make a scheme with respect to the mode in which effect is to be given to the trusts of the school-house in future."
    The hon. Member for North Louth had asked a question which he ventured to answer at once in the affirmative. If the trustees held a school on what was called a loose trust—he adopted that word as meaning a trust where the trustees had discretion, and could use it alternatively —they might use the schoolhouse either for the purpose of public elementary education, or if they thought fit, say in the case of the Wesleyans, as a place of worship or meeting house. That discretion was absolutely vested in them. The trustees could be taken by the local authority before the tribunal under Clause 8, and the tribunal could be asked to make a scheme with respect to the mode in which effect was to be given to the trust of the schoolhouse in future. [Cries of "No, No."] Hon. Members said " No, no," but the clause said so. When the trustees were brought before the tribunal the principles of the Court of Chancery were to be followed. The Minister for Education had stated that the new tribunal had power to interfere only in cases where that was the only mode of giving effect to the trust, but the right hon. Gentleman in his speeches from time to time had omitted to refer to the important provision in sub-section (b) of this clause that in making a scheme the Commission might make provision for the use of the schoolhouse for the purpose of a public elementary school if they were of opinion that that was " the best mode " of giving effect to the trust. That was a

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    discretion which the Commissioners would be bound to use instead of the trustees. In the ordinary case the trustees would have the discretion of using the schoolhouse as a place of meeting, and that was a matter for them to determine, but if the local education authority applied for a scheme it would be entirely for the Commissioners to determine " the best mode " of giving effect to the trust. It was perfectly clear that under the clause as it stood trustees who held a school on an alternative trust would, when taken before this tribunal, have their discretion taken away. In that way the clause would become a gigantic engine of oppression. If the local education authority were unable to get the terms they wanted out of the trustees they had this gigantic engine to bring them to reason from their point of view. Trustees who wished to keep their schoolhouse as a church instead of a school could be brought before the tribunal and have a scheme forced upon them. That would be a gross injustice to trustees of what he called alternative or discretionary trusts, who might not have gained the good graces of the local education authority.
    LORD BALCARRESsaid the hon. Member for the Louth division had stated that in his opinion the Charity Commissioners would be called in to settle the nature of the trust before the Commission under Clause 3 came into operation.
    MR. PERKS: I said I thought that would be the necessary effect of this Amendment, but not of the clause as drawn.
    LORD BALCARRESsaid that was a point on which he wished the opinion of the Parliamentary Secretary. The Minister for Education had stated that it was quite obvious that this clause was only to apply to educational trusts proper. Who was to settle the precise nature of those trusts? He understood the hon. Member for the Louth Division to say that there would be some antecedent body which would discriminate between the various trusts, and that when this stage was passed it would be obvious whether a school came under Clause 8 or not. Those who had studied the Return of non-provided schools in Kent knew that there was an
    92
    extraordinary variation in the schools in the different communities. From the admirably drawn up Memorandum by Mr. Selby Bigge which was prefixed to the Return it appeared that a large number of the trusts were of what might be called a " loose" character Who was to settle whether those trusts in Kent were or were not trusts which should be dealt with by the Commissioners? It had taken five or six months to produce this Return, and in view of that fact it was evident that it would take a long time to examine the 12,000 or 15,000 trusts throughout the country, in order to ascertain whether they would come under Clause 8. Be wished to know whether there was to be an antecedent stage before the trusts came before the Commissioners.
    SIR E. CARSONsaid he wished to put a concrete case. Supposing it had been decided that an existing voluntary school had an alternative trust—what was called a loose trust—could the trustees of that school be brought before the Commission at all? If they could, they were driven to sub-section (2) to see what would happen. The Commissioners had to proceed exactly as if they were the Court of Chancery. It was too absurd to tell the Committee that once the trustees had been brought before the Court of Chancery the only thing the Court could do was to dismiss the case altogether. If the proceeded according to the methods of the Court of Chancery, it would be open to the Commissioners to say " We have got the same powers as the Court of Chancery, and we are bound to act on the same principles; and looking all round we find that the best way is to utilise the trust for the benefit of the school." It was not a question for the discretion of the trustees, but it was for the Commission to determine how the trust was to be carried out. Was, then, the alternative trust to be within the jurisdiction of the Commission? When there was this divergence of opinion on the point, and seeing that this was a matter of large importance, he could not for the life of him understand why, instead of using the words " under charitable trusts," the Government, if they were perfectly clear as to what they meant,

    93
    should not put in the words, " to be settled in trust for educational purposes only."
    THE SOLICITOR-GENERAL (Sir W. ROBSON,)said that the right hon. Gentleman had put a concrete case which, it was claimed, would enable one to touch the difficulty and to solve it without trouble. The case was that of a trust which had an educational purpose and an alternative purpose; and the right hon. Gentleman had asked if such a trust was brought before the Commission what was the nature and extent of its powers as affecting the alternative trust. The answer was quite clear. The Commission was compelled to give effect to the procedure of the Court of Chancery. It was its duty to act according to the principles of the Court of Chancery. What were those principles? If anyone brought such a trust before the Court of Chancery, and if the trustees were willing to give effect to the alternative trust, it was their duty to do so. The Committee had been somewhat misled by the language used with regard to this Commission, as if it were a Commission with roving and unlimited powers. It had no such powers. It must act on the principles followed by the High Court of Chancery; and in the case of an alternative trust there could be no doubt about its action. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Dublin University asked why they should not add the expression " to be settled in trust for educational purposes only "after the words "held under charitable trusts." They were, however, here dealing only with the schoolhouses of the existing voluntary schools. What was an existing voluntary school? It was denned by this Bill as a public elementary school, so that they were dealing with a public elementary school under trust. He did not think it would add to the force of the clause if they spoke of a public elementary school being held only in trust for educational purposes. That followed obviously on the language of the clause. Reference had been made to tight and loose trusts; but there was no doubt whatever as to the kind of trust with which the Commission would have to deal, viz., trusts affecting public elementary schools. Private adventure
    94
    schools would not be affected at all. If the owners of any school chose to say, " We do not wish to transfer our school; we are going to carry it on as a certificated efficient school, and we shall give the proper guarantee to the Commissioners in that respect," they were entirely free to do so. This clause was only framed to deal with the difficulties of those schools the owners of which, could not carry them on as efficient schools. It referred to schools as to which there had been no agreement under Clause 2, and which found themselves in a difficulty because they were not self-supporting trusts, but were dependent upon the Parliamentary grants. That was the difficulty from which the Commission would help to relieve them. The Commission would really operate in the direction of benefiting those schools which one might call derelict. To limit the powers of the Commission by the use of the word "solely" would have a tendency to cut those schools out of the operation of the clause, which he thought was not exactly what hon. Members opposite wanted. To cut them out for Clause 2 by a failure to come to an agreement under that clause and from Clause 8 by inserting the word " solely " would put them in a financial difficulty of a very serious character.
    MR. T. M. HEALYmade a suggestion which he thought would solve the difficulty, namely, after the words "educational authority" in line 6, to insert "with the consent of the Attorney-General." This Government would certainly be in office during the next five years, and surely there could be no objection to saying that the interpretation of this clause should be subject to the consent of the law officers of the Crown during that period. An hon. Gentleman below the gangway had said that it would be unfair to have any one before this tribunal, putting him to all the costs, unless there was something in the nature of a preliminary inquiry. Clause 9 provided for nothing of the sort and he thought the suggestion was a very proper one. There was another alternative, that the local education authority should make it a condition precedent that the costs of the inquiry should be paid by the trustees.
    MR. SAMUEL EVANSrose to a point of order and asked whether the remarks of the hon. Gentleman were relevant to the Amendment.
    MR. T. M. HEALY: May I suggest, Sir, that my hon. and learned friend has points of order on the brain.
    THE CHAIRMANsaid the hon. and learned Member's remarks were, as he understood it, by way of recommending an alternative to the Amendment before the Committee and bore on the question which would naturally and properly arise on the Question before the Committee.
    MR. T. M. HEALYsaid they all wished to find a solution of this question, and he hoped the Government would reconsider their decision.
    SIR E. CARSONsaid the Solicitor-General had admitted that where there was an alternative trust the trustees might be brought before the Commissioners. Before the trustees were brought before the Commissioners he thought there ought to be some preliminary step, perhaps the fiat of the Attorney-General, so that if it was not necessary that course should not be taken.
    MR. ASHLEYthought they all wished the same thing, viz., that the trustees should not be brought before the Commissioners unnecessarily. He hoped the Government would accept an Amendment standing lower down in the paper in the name of the hon. Member for Kingston to insert after the word " trusts" in line 6 the words " for educational purposes only." That would define the trusts, and if it were agreed to he would withdraw his Amendment.
    MR. BURDETT-COUTTSsaid he desired to be quite clear as to the learned Solicitor-General's answer to the important question put by the hon. Member for Louth, and to inquire whether if the trustees of a school decided
    to carry on their public elementary school as a certified school, and therefore free from control or interference by the local education authority, the passing of this clause would enable that use to be made of the trust money and the trust property. He put the concrete rase of a school which had been carried on for many years as a public elementary school under trusts for that purpose. With a view to the perpetual endowment of the school a scheme had been sealed by the Board of Education embodying certain conditions as to the governing body, management, and religious teaching, to which the scheme gave the sanction of the law. On the faith of that scheme having been sealed granting the specified conditions money had been handed over and property conveyed. If the trustees considered that the conditions thus sanctioned by the Board of Education could not be carried out by this Act, were they entitled to convert the school into a certified school and so leave it free from the operation of this clause, although it had up to now been carried on as a public elementary school?
    SIR W. ROBSONsaid if he correctly gathered the purport of the hon. Gentleman's question he had previously answered it. There was nothing to prevent owners of an efficient school from carrying on that school as a certified school, and there was nothing to prevent the Commission from framing a scheme for that purpose.
    Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
    MR. ASHLEYmoved to insert in page 5, line 6, after the word " trusts," the words " for educational purposes only."
    Amendment proposed—
    " In page 5, line 6, after the word " trusts" to insert the words " for educational purposes only."—(Mr. Ashley.)
    Question put, " That those words be there inserted."
    The Committee divided:—Ayes, 167; Noes, 306. (Division List No. 187.)

    AYES.

    Abraham, William (Cork, N.E)

    Ambrose, Robert

    Anstruther-Gray, Major

    Acland-Hood.Rt. Hn.SirAlexF.

    Anson, Sir William Reynell

    Arkwright, John Stanhope

    Arnold-Forster,Rt Hn.HughO.

    Finch, Rt. Hon. George H.

    Morpeth, Viscount

    Aubrey-Fletcher,Rt. Hn.Sir H.

    Flavin, Michael Joseph

    Muntz, Sir Philip A.

    Balcarres, Lord

    Flynn, James Caristopher

    Murphy, John

    Baldwin, Alfred

    Gardner, Ernest (Berks, East)

    Nicholson, Wm, G.(Petersfield

    Balfour,Rt. Hn.A .J.(CityLond.)

    Gibbs, G. A. (Bristol, West)

    Nield, Herbert

    Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey)

    Gilhooly, James

    Nolan, Joseph

    Banbury, Sir Frederick George

    Ginnell. L.

    O'Brien,Kendal(Tipperary,Miil

    Baring, Hon. Guy (Winchester)

    Gordon, J. (Londonderry, S.)

    O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

    Barrie, H. T. (Londonderry,N.)

    Halpin, J.

    O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W.

    Beach, Hn. Michael Hugh Hicks

    Hambro, Charles Eric

    O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)

    Beckett, Hon. Gervase

    Hammond, John

    O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)

    Bignold, Sir Arthur

    Hardy, Laurence (Kent, Ashford

    O'Hare, Patrick

    Blake, Edward

    Harrison- Broadley, Col. H. B.

    O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.)

    Boland, John

    Hay, Hon. Claude George

    O'Kelly, James(Roseommon, N:

    Boyle, Sir Edward

    Hayden, John Patrick

    O'Malley, William

    Bridgeman, W. Clive

    Hazleton, Richard

    O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens

    Brotherton, Edward Allen

    Healy, Timothy Michael

    O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

    Bull, Sir William James

    Helmsley, Viscount

    Parkes, Ebenezer

    Burdett-Coutts, W.

    Hervey,W.F.(Bury.S.Edm'ds

    Pease.Horbert Pike (Darlington

    Butcher, Samuel Henry

    Hill, Sir Clement (Shrewsbury)

    Percy, Earl

    Campbell, Rt. Hon. .J. H. M.

    Hill,Henry Staveley (Staff'sh.)

    Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

    Carlile, E. Hildred

    Hills, J. W.

    Power, Patrick Joseph

    Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

    Hogan, Michael

    Rasch, Sir Frederic Carne

    Castlereagh, Viscount

    Hornby, Sir William Henry

    Ratcliff, Major R. F.

    Cave, George

    Hounston, Robert Paterson

    Reddy, M.

    Cavendish,Rt.Hn. Victor C. W.

    Hunt, Rowland

    Redmond, John E. (Waterford)

    Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

    Joyce, Michael

    Redmond William (Clare)

    Cecil, Lord John P. Joicey-

    Kennaway.Rt. Hn. Sir John H.

    Roberts,S.(Sheffield (Ecclesall)

    Cecil, Lord R.(Marylebone, E.)

    Kennedy, Vincent Paul

    Rutherford, John (Lancashire)

    Chambelain.Rt. Hn. J.(Birm.

    Kenyon-Slaney.Rt. Hn. Col.W.

    Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool)

    Coates,E.Feetham (Lewisham)

    Kilbride, Denis

    Salter, Arthur Clavel

    Condon, Thomas Joseph

    King.SirHenry Seymour (Hull)

    Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

    Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow)

    Lane-Fox, G. R.

    Sheehan, Daniel Daniel

    Courthope, G. Loyd

    Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, W.)

    Smith.Abel H. (Hertford, East

    Craig, Chas. Curtis (Antrim, S.)

    Lee,ArthurH.(Hants.,Fareham

    Smith,F.E. (Liverpool, Walton)

    Craig, Capt. James (Down, E.)

    Liddell, Henry

    Starkey, John R.

    Craik, Sir Henry

    Long, Col. Chas. W.(Evesham)

    Sullivan, Donal

    Crean, Eugene

    Long,Rt.Hn.Walter(Dublin,S.)

    Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

    Cullinan, J.

    Lonsdale, John Brownlee

    Talbot,Rt.Hn.J.G.(Oxf'dUniv.

    Dalrymple, Viscount

    Lowe, Sir Francis William

    Thomson, W Mitchell-(Lanark)

    Delany, William

    Lundon, W.

    Turnour, Viscount

    Devlin, Chas. Ramaay(Galway)

    Lyttelton, Rt. Hon.Alfred

    Valentia, Viscount

    Dillon, John

    MacIver, David (Liverpool)

    Vincent, Col. Sir C. E. Howard

    Dixon-Hartland, SirFred Dixon

    MacNeill, John Gordon Swift

    Walrond, Hon. Lionel

    Dolan, Charles Joseph

    MacVeagh, Jeremiah (Down.S.)

    Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid.

    Donelan, Captain A.

    MacVeigh, Chas. (Donegal, E.)

    White, Patrick (Meath, North)

    Doughty, Sir George

    M'Calmont, Colonel James

    Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.)

    Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

    M'Kean, John

    Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

    Duffy, William J.

    M'Killop, W.

    Wilson, A. Stanley (York,E.R.

    Duncan,Robert (Lanark.Govan

    Magnus, Sir Philip

    Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-

    Faber, George Denison (York)

    Marks, H. H. (Kent)

    Young, Samuel

    Faber Capt W V (Hants W.)

    Mason, James F.(Windsor)

    Younger, George

    Fardell, Sir T. George

    Meagher, Michael

    Fell, Arthur

    Mildmay, Francis Bingham

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr.

    Mooney, J. J.

    Ashley and Mr. Rawlinson.

    NOSE.

    Acland, Francis Dyke

    Barnes, G. N.

    Boulton, A. C. F. (Ramsey)

    Alden, Percy

    Beale, W. P.

    Brace, William

    Allen, A. Acland (Christchurch)

    Beauchamp, E.

    Bramsdon, T. A.

    Allen, Charles P. (Stroud)

    Beaumont, Hubert (Eastbourne

    Branch, James

    Ashton, Thomas Gair

    Beaumont, W. C. B. (Hexham)

    Brigg, John

    Asquith, Rt. Hn. Herbert Henry

    Bellairs, Carlyon

    Bright, J. A.

    Astbury, John Meir

    Benn, Sir J. Williams(De vonp'rt

    Brocklehurst, W. D.

    Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth)

    Bennett, E. N.

    Brodie, H. C.

    Baker, Joseph A. (Finsbury, E.)

    Bethell, J. H. (Essex, Romford

    Brooke, Stopford

    Balfour, Robert (Lanark)

    Gethell, T. R. (Essex, Maldon)

    Brunner,J. F. L. (Lanes.,Leigh)

    Baring,Godfrey (Isle of Wight)

    Billson, Alfred

    Bryce, Rt.Hn. James (Aberdeen

    Barlow, JohnEmmott(Somerset

    Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine

    Bryce, J. A. (Inverness Burghs)

    Barlow, Percy (Bedford)

    Black,ArthurW.(Bedfordshire)

    Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn

    Barnard, E. B.

    Bolton,T.D. (Derbyshire, N.E.)

    Buckmaster, Stanley O.

    98

    99

    Burns, Rt. Hon. John

    Hart-Davis, T.

    Molteno, Percy Alport

    Burnyeat, J. D. W.

    Harvey, A.G. C. (Rochdale)

    Money, L. G. Chiozza

    Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas

    Harwood, George

    Montagu, E. S.

    Buxton,Rt. Hn. SydneyCharles

    Haslam, James (Derbyshire)

    Morgan, G. Hay (Cornwall)

    Cairns, Thomas

    Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth)

    Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen)

    Cameron, Robert

    Haworth, Arthur A.

    Morley, Rt. Hon. John

    Carr-Gomm, H. W.

    Hazel, Dr. A. E.

    Morrell, Philip

    Causton,Rt,Hn.RichardKnight

    Hedges, A. Paget

    Morse, L. L.

    Cawley, Frederick

    Helme, Norval Watson

    Morton, Alpheus Cleophas

    Chance, Frederick William

    Henderson,J.M.(Aberdeen, W.)

    Myer, Horatio

    Channing, Francis Allston

    Henry, Charles S.

    Napier, T. B.

    Cheetham, John Frederick

    Herbert, T. Arnold (Wycombe)

    Newnes, F. (Notts, Bassetlaw)

    Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R.

    Higham, John Sharp

    Nicholson, Chas. N. (Doncaster

    Churchill, Winston Spencer

    Hobart, Sir Robert

    Norman, Henry

    Clarke, C. Goddard

    Hobhouse, Charles E. H.

    Norton, Capt. Cecil William

    Cleland, J. W.

    Hodge, John

    Nussey, Thomas Willans

    Clough, W.

    Hope, John Deans (Fife, West)

    Nuttall, Harry

    Clynes, J. R.

    Hope, W. Bateman(Somerset, N.

    O'Donncll, C. J. (Waiworth)

    Coats, SirT.Glen (Renfrew, W.)

    Horniman, Emslie John

    Parker, James (Halifax)

    Cobbold, Felix Thornley

    Horridge, Thomas Gardner

    Partington, Oswald

    Collins, Stephen (Lambeth)

    Hudson, Walter

    Paul, Herbert

    Collins,Sir W. J. (S.Pancras.W.

    Hutton, Alfred Eddison

    Paulton, James Mellor

    Cooper, G. J.

    Illingworth, Percy H.

    Pearce, Robert (Staffs. Leek)

    Corbett,C.H.(Sussex,EGrinst'd

    Isaacs, Rufus Daniel

    Pearce, William (Limehouse)

    Cory, Clifford John

    Jackson, R. S.

    Pearson,W. H. M. (Suffolk,Eye)

    Cotton, Sir H. J. S.

    Jacoby, James Alfred

    Philipps.Col. Ivor (S'thampton)

    Cowan, W. H.

    Jenkins, J.

    Philipps,J. Wynford (Pembroke

    Cremer, William Randal

    Johnson, John (Gateshead)

    Philipps, (Owen C. (Pembroke)

    Crombie, John William

    Johnson, W. (Nuneaton)

    Pickersgill, Edward Hare

    Crosfield, A. H.

    Jones, Leif (Appleby)

    Pirie, Duncan V.

    Crossley, William J.

    Jones, William(Carnarvonshire).

    Pollard. Dr.

    Davies, Ellis William (Eifion)

    Jowett, F. W.

    Price, C. E. (Edinburgh. Cent.)

    Davies, Timothy (Fulham)

    Kearley, Hudson E.

    Price, Robert John (Norfolk, E.

    Davies, W. Howell (Bristol, S.)

    Kekewich, Sir George

    Radford, G. H.

    Dickinson,W.H. (St.Pancras,N.

    King, Alfred John (Knutsford)

    Rainy, A. Rolland

    Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.

    Laidlaw, Robert

    Raphael, Herbert H.

    Dodd, W. H.

    Lamb, Edmund G.(Leominster

    Rea, Russell (Gloucester)

    Duncan,C. (Barrow-in-Furness)

    Lambert, George

    Rees, J. D.

    Dunne,Major E.Martin(Walsall

    Lamont, Norman

    Renton, Major Leslie

    Edwards, Clement (Denbigh)

    Layland-Barratt, Francis

    Richards, Thomas (W.Monm'th

    Edwards, Enoch (Hanley)

    Lea, Hugh Cecil (St Pancras,E.)

    Richardson, A.

    Edwards, Frank (Radnor)

    Leese, Sir Joseph F.(Accrington

    Rickett, J. Compton

    Ellis, Rt. Hon. John Edward

    Lever,A.Levy (Essex, Harwich

    Ridsdale, E. A.

    Erskine David C.

    Lever, W. H. (Cheshire, Wirral)

    Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)

    Essex, R. W.

    Levy, Maurice

    Roberts, G. H. (Norwich)

    Evans, Samuel T.

    Lewis, John Herbert

    Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)

    Everett, R. Lacey

    Lloyd-George, Rt. Hon. David

    Robertson, Rt. Hn. E.(Dundee

    Faber, G. H. (Boston)

    Lough, Thomas

    Robertson, SirG. Scott (Bradf'rd

    Fenwick, Charles

    Lupton, Arnold

    Robinson, S.

    Fiennes, Hon. Eustace

    Lutterell, Hugh Fownes

    Robson, Sir William Snowdon

    Findlay, Alexander

    Lyell, Charles Henry

    Roe, Sir Thomas

    Foster, Rt. Hon. Sir Walter

    Lynch, H. B.

    Rogers, K. E. .Newman

    Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

    Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester)

    Rowlands, J.

    Fuller, John Michael F.

    Macdonald,J.M. (FalkirkB'ghs

    Runciman, Walter

    Fullerton, Hugh

    Mackarncss, Frederic C.

    Russell, T. W.

    Furness, Sir Christopher

    Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.

    Rutherford, V. H. (Brentford)

    Gardner, Col.Alan (Hereford.S.)

    M'Arthur, William

    Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)

    Gibb, James (Harrow)

    M'Callum, John M.

    Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel)

    Gladstone,Rt.Hn.Herbert John

    M'Crae, George

    Schwann, C. Duncan (Hyde)

    Glendinning, R. G.

    M'Kenna, Reginald

    Schwann, Sir C. E. (Manchester)

    Glover, Thomas

    M'Laren, Sir C. B. (Leicester)

    Scott, A.H.(Ashton under Lyne

    Goddard, Daniel Ford

    M'Laren, H. D. (Stafford, W.)

    Sears, J. E.

    Gooch, George Peabody

    M'Micking, Major G.

    Seddon, J.

    Greenwood, G. (Peterborough)

    Maddison, Frederick

    Seely, Major J. B.

    Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward

    Mallet, Charles K.

    Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)

    Gulland, John W.

    Manfield, Harry (Northants)

    Shaw, Rt. Hon. T. (Hawick B.

    Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

    Marks,G.Croydon(Launceston)

    Shipman, Dr. John G.

    Haldane, Rt. Hon. Richard B.

    Marnham, F. J.

    Silcock, Thomas Ball

    Hall, Frederick

    Mason, A. E. W. (Coventry)

    Sinclair, Rt. Hon. John

    Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Lewis

    Massie, J.

    Sloan, Thomas Henry

    Hardie,J.Keir (MerthyrTydvil)

    Hardy, George A. (Suffolk)

    Menzies, WTalter

    Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie

    Harmsworth, Cecil B. (Worc'r)

    Micklem, Nathaniel

    Snowden, P.

    100

    101

    Soames, Arthur Wellesley

    Thompson, J.W.H.(Somerset,E

    White, George (Norfolk)

    Soares, Ernest J.

    Tomkinson, James

    White, J. D. (Dumbartonshire)

    Spicer, Albert

    Torrance, A. M.

    Whitehead, Rowland

    Stanley,Hn. A. Lyulph(Chesh.)

    Toulmin, George

    Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

    Steadman, W. C.

    Trevelyan, Charles Philips

    Whittaker, Sir Thomas Palmer

    Stewart, Halley (Greenock)

    Verney, F. W.

    Wiles, Thomas

    Stewart-Smith, D. (Kendal)

    Vivian, Henry

    Williams, Llewelyn(Carmarthen

    Strachey, Sir Edward

    Walker, H. De R. (Leicester)

    Wiliamson, A.

    Straus, B. S. (Mile End)

    Wallace, Robert

    Wilson, John (Durham, Mid)

    Strauss, E. A, (Abingdon)

    Walsh, Stephen

    Wilson, J.W. (Worcestersh.N.)

    Stuart, James (Sunderland)

    Walters, John Tudor

    Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)

    Summerbell, T.

    Walton, Sir John L. (Leeds, S.)

    Winfrey, R.

    Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth)

    Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

    Woodhouse,SirJ.T.(Huddersf'd

    Taylor, Theodore C. (Radclifle)

    Wardle, George J.

    Tennant,SirEdward (Salisbury)

    Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan)

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr.

    Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.)

    Watt, H. Anderson

    Whiteley and Mr. J. A.

    Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr

    Weir, James Galloway

    Pease.

    MR. CAVEmoved to insert in line 6, after the word " authority," the words, " or the owners of the schoolhouse." The effect of the Amendment, he said, would be to give power to the owners of the schoolhouse as well as to the local authority to apply to the Commission for a scheme affecting the schoolhouse. As the Bill stood at present if the negotiations for the transfer of the schoolhouse broke down, the local authority could appeal to the Commission for a scheme to compel the owners to transfer the school to themselves. But while the local authority might do that, the trustees or owners had no power under the Bill to make an application. The result would be that the owners would lose their school in any event; for if the local authority took it over they lost it, and if the local authority did not apply the owners would not be able to carry on the school, and in all probability the building erected for the purposes of a school and suitable for no other purpose would have to be sold for what it would fetch. If that was the alternative before the owners when they come to negotiate, what kind of negotiation would that be? Would not a contract entered into under such conditions be a one sided contract? He thought no one would say that it would be a fair contract. What he proposed was that the Commission should be open to the owners as well as to the local authority; that if the local authority wanted the school they should apply, and that if they did not and the owners thought the school was one that ought to be transferred they should be at liberty to apply. Of course, they would have
    102
    to satisfy the Commissioners that the school was one that should in the public interest be transferred. Hon. members opposite said they could not see why the application to the Commission was objected to, because it was really for the purpose of securing that the school should be carried on in accordance with the trusts. If hon. Gentlemen really wanted to assist them in carrying out their trusts, why not open the door to them in the way he proposed? It was said that for some purposes this Commission would be in the position of the Charity Commissioners under the Charitable Trusts Acts. But under those Acts application could be made either by the Attorney-General, by persons interested in the trust, or by the owners or trustees of the property in question; and where the total annual value of the trust property was over £50 it was expressly provided that no application could be made except at the instance of the owners. But he was not asking for that. He merely asked that the owners should not be cut out; that they should have power to go in on equal terms, and that the Commission should be an impartial judge between the parties instead of being an executioner, as at present proposed. He was sure that his Amendment would commend itself to many members in the Committee, as all he asked was for fair play and an open field for both parties. He begged to move.
    Amendment proposed—
    " In page 5, line 6, after the word " authority" to insert the words " or the owners of the schoolhouse."—(Mr. Cave.)
    Question proposed, "That those words be inserted."
    MR. BIRRELLsaid that though there might be a good deal to be said for the Amendment, it was absolutely impossible to make it fit in with this clause. In spite of all that had taken place hon. Members opposite did not seem to realise the particular kind of duty which it was sought to lay on these Commissioners. He had never said that they should settle the terms of the bargain between the parties except in a case where the local authority wanted the schoolhouse for the purposes of a public elementary school and the owners of the school would not let them have it. In that case the local authority would go to the Commissioners as lawyers and say, ''Here are the trusts of the school. Look into them and consider them and then answer this question. Is it not the duty of the trustees, having regard to the obligations of the trusts, either to keep this school in their possession as a certified efficient school or to transfer it to the local authority?" That was the sole duty which they sought to impose upon the Commissioners. They did not wish to make them the authority, and they would not be so good as the Board of Education to determine whether or not a local authority should take over a particular school the owners of which were desirous that it should be taken over. The whole object was that the Commission should deal with those who did not want to be taken over, and to find out whether they were entitled to persist in refusing to be taken over. The Amendment might be a very good argument in favour of his new clause, but it was inconsistent with the purposes of this clause. He did not think they could put upon the Commissioners he had named this new burden. [An HON. MEMBER: Will they not be paid?] Yes, but that did not meet his objection. The Prime Minister might have selected other persons, but the duties they had to perform were legal duties and they had to find people acquainted with the law of trust. They were men of legal mind and training and it might be taken that they would do perfect justice and interpret trusts in a proper spirit.
    SIR WILLIAM ANSONsaid the speech of the Minister for Education had thrown an entirely new light upon this clause. There was nothing in the clause to suggest that it would bring reluctant and recalcitrant trustees to justice. If a trust school was disregarded by the local authority where the trustees desired to be taken over and desired to have access to the Commission, he con-tended that they should have the opportunity of coming before this very competent court to decide upon what terms they were to be taken over. They were not asking for nearly so much as was to some extent conceded under Clause 2. There they asked that owners who had a school structurally efficient and satisfactory might be able to claim to have their school taken over. They were not now asking for that, but simply for access to a court to determine whether a scheme might not be framed for a school which the local authority had left derelict. The ratepayers might be put to the expense of building new schools which in point of expense and of character might be unsatisfactory to the inhabitants of the area who desired to maintain the voluntary schools. He asked the Minister for Education to look at this matter from the point of view he had put before the Committee. There were a number of trust schools anxious to be transferred; the local authorities might decline to make any arrangement which was satisfactory; and the result would follow that the schools would be left derelict and would be excluded from the operation of the clause. They were asking to come before the Commission to decide what terms would best carry out their trust and continue their career as public elementary schools. That was not much to ask for, and if the clause meant what the right hon. Gentleman said it meant let it be made clear. They were now told that under this clause they could only deal with trustees who had shown themselves negligent in the exercise of their trust and had given the local authority reason to say that they must come before the Commission to determine the terms on which the school might be taken over. He hoped the Government would either alter the words or accept the Amendment.
    MAJOR SEELYsaid they had been told that they could not discuss the new Clause 3 now and the right hon. Gentleman had also told them that they could not discuss bilateral compulsion. The Bill as it stood was not just. There were elaborate provisions in Clauses 3 and 4 for certain kinds of schools to be transferred if the trustees and the people desired it; and yet when all the conditions which the Committee wished to impose had been fulfilled, if the local authority happened to be intolerant they might allow the school to become derelict. On the other hand, the owners of the school were compelled under the Bill to surrender their property. Clearly that was unfair and could not be defended logically. The Minister for Education had fully admitted that the case was indefensible.
    MR. BIRRELL: No.
    MAJOR SEELYsaid he had the right hon. Gentleman's words in his pocket.
    MR. BIRRELL: Something has been done to Clause 4.
    MAJOR SEELYagreed that something had been clone to Clause 4. Compulsion where it was applied must necessarily apply to both parties. He could not understand why the Amendment had not been accepted. The only answer given was that it did not come in this part of the Bill. Upon a former occasion they made an appeal to the Minister for Education, and he very graciously agreed to do what they asked for, but now he told them that he would only be able to do it if somebody who was hostile to them would agree to something which probably they did not want.
    MR. T. M. HEALYsaid the Minister for Education had told them that this was a penal clause to punish persons who refused to accept the provisions in the earlier part of the Bill, and that he could not contemplate the idea of any person seeking to punish himself and applying this machinery of torture to his own person. That might seem a very good answer, but it was not sound. He would give as an illustration what hap-
    106
    pened under the Act of 1881. Mr Gladstone proposed to allow tenants to fix a fair rent; but it seemed to be an injustice, and then an option was also given to the landlord to fix a fair rent as well. The definition clause must be considered, because the extraordinary thing was that in regard to the expression " owners," it provided that " where a schoolhouse or any interest therein is vested in the official trustee, or where any difficulty arises as to who are the owners of the schoolhouse or any interest therein, any persons recognised, or appointed to act, as owners for the purpose of this part of this Act by the Board of Education shall for those purposes be deemed to be the owners." In other words, as in the case of the ladies before Solomon, a false mother might be; found as the owner of the property, because the true owners might, in protection of their interests, and in order to evade the legal process, throw every possible difficulty in the way. They might then suddenly find themselves ousted by a nominee of the Board of Education, and they were not even allowed to come in to defend their property or trust. It did seem to him that the proposal of the hon. and learned Gentleman was one that was well deserving of consideration. This was a question not of drafting, but of substance. It would be very easy to put in a catch clause at the end which would save the blushes of the draftsman. But he did say that to allow an owner, for years probably, to have this threat held over his head by people who did not ever mean to put it into effect would involve trouble and cost to the owner which he ought not to have to suffer.
    MR. SAMUEL EVANShoped the President of the Board of Education would resist the temptation to fall in with the appeal of his hon. and learned friend, who did not vote for the Second reading of the Bill. Those who voted for the Second Reading were in favour of this clause as it stood now, and, according to the Minister for Education, the Amendment proposed was entirely inconsistent with the clause. The principle of Clause 8 was that the local education authorities were not bound

    107
    to take over any school, and the Committee had already determined that question. This Amendment, however, attempted indirectly to put compulsion upon the local education authorities. So far as the mass of denominational schools were concerned, their case had been dealt with, and, as he thought, fairly satisfactorily to hon. Members opposite, by the Amendment of Clause 4. Whether that was so or not, it was quite clear that the essence of Clause 8 was that the local education authority were not bound to take over any school. The Commission to be set up was hardly the body to determine the question whether the school was structurally fit and whether, having regard to all the local circumstances, the school ought to be taken over. The Commission had to look into the law affecting the trusts of these particular buildings. He was glad his right hon. friend had spoken as he had done. Those who voted for the Second Reading of the Bill deserved to have their appeals attended to more than those who voted against the Second Reading. The only form of Clause 8 consistent with the Bill was the clause as it now stood, and therefore he submitted that the Committee should vote against the Amendment.
    MR. A. J. BALFOURsaid the doctrine of the hon. and learned Gentleman was surely a very novel one; it was that those who voted for the Second Reading voted for the Bill as brought in and printed, and that therefore they required special consideration if any alterations were to be made in the course of the discussion.
    MR. SAMUEL EVANS: In regard to the principle of the Bill, I mean.
    MR. A. J. BALFOURsaid the only expositions of the principle of the Bill that the Committee could regard as authoritative were those of the Minister in charge of the Bill, and he ventured to say that the speeches of the right hon. Gentleman were not in favour of the principle of local option, which the hon. I and learned Gentleman over and over again had said was the one redeeming quality of the Bill. It was true that the Government had been rather frightened,
    108
    by such speeches as that which the Committee had just heard, into adopting a different attitude, but the speeches of the right hon. Gentleman were on record, and the time might come when they would have to draw them out in extenso. All he would say at this moment was that it would be entirely at variance with the traditions of the House, and render all discussions in Committee entirely nugatory if the Government refused to accept an Amendment simply because it was not, and indeed could not be, in the Bill as originally introduced. He would point out what appeared to be the gross injustice of the clause. To this transaction of converting a voluntary school into a provided school there were two parties— the local authority and the owners of the school. The Government were aware that, as far as the owners of the school were concerned, they might be inflicting a considerable hardship upon them by a compulsory transfer. Yet while they gave power to the local authority to compel schools to come in, they gave no corresponding power to the owners of the school. The position of the local authority was made easy; the position of the owners of the school was rendered difficult, and even intolerable. Why did the right hon. Gentleman prevent the Commission looking into any case which was brought before it by those responsible for a trust? Why was it that only those who wished to get hold of the school and not those who were responsible for the school were to have permission to go before this body? The local authority was free to reject every part of the scheme made before the tribunal to which they themselves had appealed, but the parties who were not allowed to appeal to the tribunal were bound by the scheme. He would ask the right hon. Gentleman whether it was really inconsistent either with his idea of justice or with the frame work of the Bill, to extend to the owners of the schools all the assistance which the new machinery gave to the local authority. It would be unfair to exclude one party from going before this tribunal if it desired to do so, and to make the decisions of the tribunal binding only upon that party. That was the fundamental injustice underlying Clause 8. He earnestly hoped in connection with not only this.

    109
    Amendment, but the whole scheme of the Bill, that the Government would consider how harsh was the treatment meted out to those schools, and that they would endeavour to remove the feeling of injustice and unmerited wrong which would result from this perfectly arbitrary treatment. The right hon. Gentleman must feel that there was a basis of justice in the demand put forward, and that he could remedy this gratuitous inequality without injuring his Bill. He hoped, therefore, that the right hon. Gentleman would make the necessary alterations.
    MR. HERBERTsaid the Amendment moved by the hon. and learned Gentleman had some considerable attraction for him. He did desire that the owners of schoolhouses should be put in a position of equality with the local authority to enable them to make a fair bargain when it came to a bargain. While he was impressed with the speech of the hon. and learned Gentleman in putting that point, it seemed to him that the answer of the President of the Board of Education was a substantial and practical one which they were bound on the Ministerial side of the House to accept. It had to be remembered that speaking as they ought to do for the public in this matter, they could not put on the local authority the obligation to take over a school which was not needed, even if it was structurally perfect. The Commission was not a proper body to inquire into the question whether a particular school was required, taking into account the circumstances of the district in which it was situated.
    MR. DILLONsaid the hon. and learned Member for the Wycombe division forgot that this was an alternative to Clause 3, and that if this was put in the Bill Clause 3 would be withdrawn. The Minister for Education was in an extraordinary and unparalleled position. He did not remember anything analagous in connection with any Bill he had heard discussed. The Committee did not know what the intentions of the Government were in regard to Clause 3. The case made out by the Leader of the Opposition against the present proposal was absolutely unanswerable. It was
    110
    proposed that the local education authority should be able to take the initiative and bring the trustees of a voluntary school before the Commission, and that they should not be bound to accept the scheme prepared by the Commission, or any provision in the scheme [An HON. MEMBER: No.] The power was contained in sub-section (b). The President of the Board of Education in adumbrating this clause laid down that it should be bilateral. It gave, however, to the local authority a right which was denied to the schools.
    MR. BIRRELLsaid that so far as the actual Amendment was concerned he did not think he could add anything to what he had already said. Clause 8 was quite consistent with the Bill as introduced. He had never for a moment overlooked the fact that there was this gap. The language which he used in introducing the Bill was—
    " The second clause of the Bill proposes to authorise the local educational authorities, for the purpose of continuing any existing voluntary school as a provided school, to make, with the consent of the Board of Education, any arrangement they can or think fit, by agreement with the owners of the schoolhouse, for obtaining such use of it as is required for carrying on a public elementary school. That is to say, they may make such arrangements as they can by agreement with the owners of these buildings, or such of them as are fit for the purpose of carrying on within their walls, as heretofore, the business of a public elementary school.…"†
    Later on in the same speech he said that in those schools which had been acquired, special religious teaching of the kind stipulated for would be given if demanded by the parents. The Bill never contemplated imposing on any education authority the obligation to take any school. He had never contemplated perpetuating, nor that it was the duty of the Government to seek to perpetuate, the existing state of things. The Government never intended to proceed on any other basis than that the local education authority should have the option of determining which of the voluntary schools it wanted in order to carry out its obligation of providing for the school children in its area. He started, therefore, with that view. Then, it was, of course, pointed out that there was
    † See (4) Debates, clv., 1027.

    111
    a gap. He had acknowledged that it was there, and he was asked what was the answer if the local education authorities chose to wage a vendetta warfare against all the voluntary schools in the country. There was no answer except that such a thing was particularly improbable, though the Bill did not impose any obligation on the education authority. Then there was the Amendment of the hon. Member for Oxford University, which sought to remove the gap by imposing an obligation on the education authority to take over in general terms any voluntary school that wished to be taken over, or, as the hon. Member said, wished to be confiscated. He said at once that it was impossible to come to any such agreement as that, but that, if they wanted to do business, he saw that there were advantages to be gained from the fact that, if all the schools were to be taken over, there must be a bilateral obligation. It would impose on the owners the obligation to part with their schools if the local education authority wished to have them, and it would get rid of all the questions that would be submitted to the Commission of three. If the trustees chose to say, " We do not worry about our trusts; we are prepared to hand over on terms," that would be a very useful thing, and get rid of the heavy work that would be imposed on the Commission. He could not impose his new clause on hon. Gentlemen opposite because it was not any clause in his Bill. It was an eirenicon, and it imposed on private owners an obligation he expressly excluded them from. There was only the compulsion of the law in certain tight educational trusts. The private owner and the trustee with an alternative trust were, so far as the Bill was concerned, free agents. They could snap their fingers at the local authority. The only person who could not say, " You shall not have the school " was the person whose trusts were of such a character that the principles of law or equity placed him under an obligation. He might be obliged to transfer. He could not impose his new clause on the Committee, but he certainly proposed it as a good settlement, and, as to the time for discussing it, it would be the first of the new clauses, and the
    112
    Committee would find, he thought, that there would be ample time for its consideration. He admitted the matter was in a tangle, and he thought that, if he had been a more experienced Parliamentarian, he would have b en content to express his offer and to wait for hon. Gentlemen opposite to press it further. He had done the best he could for facilities under both Clause 3 and Clause 4, and he had no anxiety to avoid discussion on this new clause. It certainly would have a full opportunity of being discussed. What its fate would be he did not know, and consequently he was obliged to go on with Clause 8 as it stood, though he quite agreed that, if the new clause were adopted, Clause 8 would have to be considerably modified. He could only say he could not accept the Amendment under this clause. It would upset the whole scheme. It would impose on the Commission a kind of duties they were not qualified to perform, for they would have to collect information which the Board of Education had already got, and it would impose on them administrative work which they could not be asked to do.
    MR. T. M. HEALYsaid that, however much those on his side of the House might differ from the right hon. Gentleman, they recognised his candour and the charm of his language. The right hon. Gentleman, however, had not met the point. These local bodies were shifting and changing bodies. They were elected every three years, and, whatever plan in the nature of a counter proposal was made to the Commission, they might either refuse to accept the scheme or say, " We find the burdens on our taxpayers so great that we throw over the whole thing." Accordingly the supporters of the Amendment said, ''Permit the manager or trustee himself to set the education authority in motion. Let him be a plaintiff instead of a defendant, and say ' Either impose this trust as a matter of perpetual obligation on this body or let me be free for ever from it.'" Was that unfair? Was it not common justice? The right hon. Gentleman had said that they had no right to refer to Durham and no right to cast suspicion upon the local authorities, but when statements of that

    113
    character were made by great local authorities when the Bill was merely before the House of Commons, what would they do when it became an Act of Parliament? If they said these things in the green tree, what would they do in the dry? There was a spirit abroad among local education authorities which rendered defence absolutely necessary on the part of school managers and trustees. If this was to be a punitive clause, would any man come before the Commissioners, as an applicant, to apply for an order in regard to purchase unless he had no other resort? The provisions of the clause were calculated to drive a man into the fire and he thought they were entitled to have some reconsideration of the matter.
    The schools ought to be given a final appeal on this question, and it should be made plain that once the local education authority set the ball rolling they had taken an inevitable step, and that if they started a scheme they must stick to it; if they had put the county to the expense of £3,000 or £4,000 they must bear that responsibility. The right hon. Gentleman the President of the Board of Education had not met the argument which he had addressed to the Committee.
    Question put.
    The Committee divided:—Ayes, 109; Noes, 247. (Division List No. l88.)

    AYES.

    Abraham, William (Cork, N.E.)

    Flynn, James Christopher

    O' Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

    Anson, Sir William Reynell

    Gardner, Ernest (Berks, East)

    O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W)

    Ashley, W. W.

    Gibbs, G. A. (Bristol, West)

    O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)

    Balcarres, Lord

    Gilhooly, James

    O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)

    Balfour,RtHn.A.J. (City Lond.

    Ginnell, L.

    O'Hare, Patrick

    Barnes, G. N.

    Haddock, George R.

    O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.)

    Barrie, H. T. (Londonderry, N.

    Halpin, J.

    O'Kelly, James(Roscommon,N.

    Beckett, Hon. Gervase

    Hammond. John

    O'Malley, William

    Bignold, Sir Arthur

    Harrison-Broadley, Col. H. B.

    O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

    Blake, Edward

    Hayden, John Patrick

    Parkes, Ebenezer

    Boland, John

    Healy, Timothy Michael

    Pease,Herbert Pike (Darlington

    Boyle, Sir Edward

    Hill, Sir Clement (Shrewsbury)

    Percy, Earl

    Bridgeman, W. Clive

    Hills, J. W.

    Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

    Brotherton, Edward Allen

    Hogan, Michael

    Power, Patrick Joseph

    Burdett-Coutts, W.

    Houston, Robert Paterson

    Rawlinson, John Frederick P.

    Butcher, Samuel Henry

    Hunt, Rowland

    Redmond, John E. (Waterford)

    Carlile, E. Hildred

    Jowett, F. W.

    Redmond, William (Clare)

    Castlereagh, Viscount

    Joyce, Michael

    Roche, John (Galway, East)

    Cave, George

    Kennaway.Rt. Hn. Sir John H.

    Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool)

    Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

    Kennedy, Vincent Paul

    Salter, Arthur Clavell

    Chamberlain,Rt.Hn.J.A(Wore.

    Kilbride, Denis

    Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

    Coates, E. Feetham(Lewisham)

    King, Sir Henry Seymour(Hull)

    Seely, Major J. B.

    Condon, Thomas Joseph

    Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, W.)

    Sheehan, Daniel Daniel

    Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow)

    Lundon, W.

    Smith,Abel H. (Hertford, East)

    Courthope, G. Loyd

    Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred

    Smith,F. E. (Liverpool,Walton)

    Craik, Sir Henry

    MacNeill, John Gordon Swift

    Sullivan, Donal

    Crean, Eugene

    MacVeagh, Jeremiah (Down,S.

    Talbot, Rt.Hn.J. G.(Oxf'dUniv.

    Cullinan, J.

    MacVeigh, Chas. (Donegal, E.)

    Thomson, W.Mitchell-(Lanark)

    Delany, William

    M'Killop, W.

    Turnour, Viscount

    Devlin, Chas. Ramsay (Galway

    Magnus, Sir Philip

    White, Patrick (Meath. North)

    Dillon, John

    Meagher, Michael

    Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.)

    Dolan, Charles Joseph

    Meysey-Thompson, E. C.

    Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

    Donelan, Captain A.

    Mooney, J. J.

    Young, Samuel

    Doughty, Sir George

    Muntz, Sir Philip A.

    Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

    Murphy, John

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Sir

    Duffy, William J.

    Nield, Herbert

    Alexander Acland-Hood and

    Finch, Rt. Hon. George H.

    Nolan, Joseph

    Viscount Valentia.

    Flavin, Michael Joseph

    O'Brien,Kendal(Tipperary,Mid

    NOSE.

    Alden, Percy

    Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth)

    Barlow, Jn. Emmott (Somerset

    Allen, A. Acland (Christchurch)

    Baker, Joseph A. (Finsbury, E.

    Barlow, Percy (Bedford)

    Allen, Charles P. (Stroud)

    Balfour, Robert (Lanark)

    Barnard, E. B.

    Astbury, John Meir

    Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight

    Beauchamp, E.

    Beaumont, W. C. B. (Hexham)

    Goddard, Daniel Ford

    Morse, L. L.

    Bellairs, Carlyon

    Greenwood, G. (Peterborough)

    Morton, Alpheus Cleophas

    Belloc, Hilaire Joseph Peter R.

    Gulland, John W.

    Murray, James

    Benn, Sir J.Williams(Devonp'rt

    Gurdon, Sir W Brampton

    Myer, Horatio

    Benn,W.(T'w'rHamlets,S.Geo.

    Hall, Frederick

    Napier, T. B.

    Bennett, E. N.

    Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Lewis

    Nicholson, Chas. N. (Doncaster

    Bethell, J. H. (Essex, Romford

    Hardie, J. Keir(MerthyrTydvil

    Norton, Capt. Cecil William

    Bethell, T. R. (Essex, Maldon)

    Hardy, George A. (Suffolk)

    Nussey, Thomas Willans

    Billson, Alfred

    Hart-Davies, T.

    Nuttall, Harry

    Birrell, Rt Hon. Augustine

    Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale)

    O'Donnell, C. J. (Walworth)

    Black,ArthurW.(Bedfordshire)

    Harwood, George

    Parker, James (Halifax)

    Bolton,T.D.(Derbyshire, N.E.)

    Haslam, James (Derbyshire)

    Paulton, James Mellor

    Boulton, A. C. F. (Ramsey)

    Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth)

    Pearce, Robert (Staffs., Leek)

    Brace, William

    Haworth, Arthur A.

    Pearce, William (Limehouse)

    Bramsdon, T. A.

    Hazel, Dr. A. E.

    Pearson, W.H.M.(Suffolk, Eye).

    Branch, James

    Hedges, A. Paget

    Philipps,Col.Ivor (S'thampton)

    Brigg, John

    Helme, Norval Watson

    Philipps, J. Wynford(Pembroke

    Bright, J. A.

    Henderson,J.M. (Aberdeen.W.)

    Pickersgill, Edward Hare

    Brodie, H. C.

    Herbert, Col. Ivor (Mon., S.)

    Price, C.E. (Edinburgh.Central)

    Brooke, Stopford

    Herbert, T. Arnold (Wycombe)

    Price, Robert John (Norfolk, E.

    Brunner,J.F.L. (Lancs., Leigh)

    Higham, John Sharp

    Radford, G. H.

    Bryce, J. A. (Inverness Burghs)

    Hobhouse, Charles E. H.

    Raphael, Herbert H.

    Buckmaster, Stanley O.

    Hodge, John

    Rea, Russell (Gloucester)

    Burns, Rt. Hon. John

    Hope, John Deans (Fife, West)

    Rees, J. D.

    Burnyeat, J. D. W.

    Hope, W.Bateman(Somerset,N.

    Richards, Thomas(W.Monm'th)

    Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas

    Horniman, Emslie John

    Richardson. A.

    Buxton,Rt. Hn. Sydney Chas

    Hudson, Walter

    Rickett, J. Compton

    Byles, William Pollard

    Hutton, Alfred Eddison

    Ridsdale, E. A.

    Cairns, Thomas

    Illingworth, Percy H.

    Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)

    Carr-Gomm, H. W.

    Jackson, R. S.

    Roberts, G. H. (Norwich)

    Causton,Rt.Hn.RichardKnight

    Jenkins, J.

    Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)

    Cawley, Frederick

    Johnson, John (Gateshead)

    Robertson,SirG.Scott(Bradf'rd

    Charnning, Francis Allston

    Johnson, W. (Nuneaton)

    Robinson. S.

    Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R.

    Jones,SirD.Brynmor (Swansea)

    Robson, Sir William Snowdon

    Clarke, C. Goddard

    Jones, Leif (Appleby)

    Roe, Sir Thomas

    Cleland, J. W.

    Jones, William (Carnarvonshire

    Rogers, F. E. Newman

    Clough, W.

    Kekewich, Sir George

    Runciman, Walter

    Clynes, J. R.

    Kincaid-Smith, Captain

    Rutherford. V. H. (Brentford)

    Cobbold, Felix Thornley

    King, Alfred John (Knutsford)

    Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland).

    Collins, Stephen (Lambeth)

    Laidlaw, Robert

    Samuel. S. M. (Whitechapel)

    Collins,SirWm.J.(S.Pancras,W

    Lamb, Edmund G. (Leominster

    Schwann. C. Duncan (Hyde)

    Corbett,C.H.(Sussex,E Grinst'd

    Lambert, George

    Schwann, Sir.C. E. (Manchester)

    Cory, Clifford John

    Lamont, Norman

    Scott,A.H.(Ashton under Lyne

    Cotton, Sir H. J. F.

    Layland-Barratt, Francis

    Sears, J. E.

    Cowan, W. H.

    Lea,HughCecil(St.Pancras, E.)

    Seddon, J.

    Crombie, John William

    Lever, A. Levy(Essex,Harwich

    Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)

    Crosfield, A. H.

    Lever, W. H. (Cheshire, Wirral)

    Shipman. Dr. John G.

    Davies, Ellis William (Eifion)

    Levy, Maurice

    Silcock, Thomas Ball

    Davies, Timothy (Fulham)

    Lewis, John Herbert

    Snowden, P.

    Davies, W. Howell (Bristol, S.)

    Lloyd-George, Rt. Hon. David

    Soares, Ernest J.

    Dilke, Rt, Hon. Sir Charles

    Lough, Thomas

    Spicer, Albert

    Dodd, W. H.

    Lupton, Arnold

    Stanley, Hn.A.Lyulph (Chesh.)

    Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness

    Luttrell, Hugh Fownes

    Steadman, W. C.

    Duncan, J. H. (York, Otley)

    Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester)

    Stewart, Halley (Greenock)

    Edwards, Clement (Denbigh)

    Macdonald, J.M. (Falkirk B'ghs

    Stewart-Smith, D. (Kendal)

    Edwards, Enoch (Hanley)

    Mackarness, Frederic C.

    Strachey, Sir Edward

    Ellis, Rt. Hon. John Edward

    Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.

    Straus, B. S. (Mile End)

    Essex, R. W.

    M'Callum, John M.

    Stuart, James (Sunderland)

    Evans, Samuel T.

    M'Crae, George

    Summerbell, T.

    Everett, R. Lacey

    M'Kenna, Reginald

    Sutherland, J. E.

    Faber, G. H. (Boston)

    M'Laren, H. D. (Stafford, W.)

    Taylor. Theodore C. (Radcliffe)

    Fenwick, Charles

    M'Micking, Major G.

    Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.)

    Fiennes, Hon. Eustace

    Maddison, Frederick

    Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.)

    Findlay, Alexander

    Mallet, Charles E.

    Thompson,J. W.H.(Somerset,E .

    Foster, Rt. Hon. Sir Walter

    Manfield, Harry (Northants)

    Tillett. Louis John

    Fuller, John Michael F.

    Marks,G.Croydon (Launceston)

    Torrance. A. M.

    Fullerton, Hugh

    Marnham, F. J.

    Toulmin, George

    Gibb, James (Harrow)

    Massie, J.

    Trevelyan, Charles Philips

    Gill, A. H.

    Micklem, Nathaniel

    Verney, F. W.

    Gladstone,Rt.Hn.Herbert John

    Molteno, Percy Alport

    Vivian, Henry

    Glendinning, R.G.

    Money, L. G. Chiozza

    Walker, H. De R. (Leicester)

    Glover, Thomas

    Montgomery, H. H.

    Walsh, Stephen

    116

    117

    Walton, Sir John L. (Leeds, S.)

    Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

    Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)

    Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

    Whittaker, Sir Thomas Palmer

    Winfrey, W.

    Wardle, George J,

    Wiles, Thomas

    Yoxall, James Henry

    Watt, H Anderson

    Williams, J. (Glamorgan)

    Wedgwood, Josiah C.

    Wills, Arthur Walters

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr.

    Weir, James Galloway

    Wilson, Henry J. (York, W.R.)

    Whiteley and Mr. J. A.

    White, J. D. (Dumbartonshire)

    Wilson, John (Durham, Mid)

    Pease.

    Whitebead, Rowland

    Wilson.J.W. (Worcestersh., N.)

    Question put, and agreed to.

    SIR WILLIAM ANSONmoved to substitute January 1st, 1908, for January 1st, 1907, as the date after which applications to the Commission might be made by the local authority, in the absence of arrangement, to make a scheme in regard to an existing voluntary school held under a charitable trust. When they discussed Clause 1 the President of the Board of Education held out some hope that he might, as the Bill went through Committee, reconsider the dates which were fixed in it, and he ventured to think that, having regard to the late period of the year and the arrangements of the Government for an Autumn session, there was no great probability of arrangements being made between the trustees and the local authority, before the 1st of January, 1907. If no such arrangements were made, the trustees might under the Bill at once be brought before this Commission, and he thought the Minister for Education would see that it was fair to allow a certain interval to elapse during which the parties to these complicated transactions for the transfer of elementary schools should discuss and consider the arrangements to be made. He thought that everybody would feel that they should have an opportunity of coming to a fair arrangement satisfactory to both parties. If the Bill was to come into operation at all, he, for one, would wish that it should be worked with the utmost good will on all sides, but he did not think that that would be the case if only a month or six weeks elapsed between the time when the Bill became law and the time when the parties to these difficult transactions were brought before the statutory Commission. Therefore he hoped the right hon. Gentleman would see his way to extend the dates in the Bill not only at this part of it, but elsewhere, so as to allow a year to elapse before the trustees could be treated in
    118
    the way which the Bill contemplated and be brought struggling and reluctant before the Commission. He thought a year should be allowed to elapse, for the purpose of giving the trustees an opportunity of considering the new condition of things to be brought about by the Bill. If the additional time was accorded, he hoped that in the course of the year it might be possible for some friendly arrangement to be made and further friction in regard to these schools avoided. Under the construction put upon the clause by the right hon. Gentleman the Minister for Education, it was only to operate where the trustees were found wanting in the exercise of their proper duties towards their trust, and if they declined to carry on their schools under arrangement with a local authority, they were to be brought before these three distinguished gentlemen who would settle the terms of the transfer. Before this took place, however, he thought some time should be allowed to elapse, and it was in his view somewhat farcical, having regard to the; lapse of time which must take place before the Bill became law, to bring it into force at so early a period. Although when they first asked for an extension of time in May it was considered unreasonable, what was unreasonable then might be considered reasonable now in July. He hoped the right hon. Gentleman would take that view and allow this extension.
    Amendment proposed—
    "In page 5, line 9, to leave out the word ' seven ' and to insert the word ' eight.' "—(Sir William Anson.)
    Question proposed, "That the word ' seven' stand part of the clause."
    MR. BIRRELLsaid he did not think any useful purpose would be served by putting this matter off for a whole year. He thought the provision might be

    119
    trusted to inflict no injustice on any man. On the other hand, he thought the right hon. Gentleman had overlooked the fact that already the owners of these schools, by access to the public Press and taking some interest in what was going on, had in all probability acquainted themselves with the nature of their trusts and already knew what their legal rights were. He thought it would be a pity that a whole year should be wasted when many of the owners were perfectly ready to submit their case as to whether they were so restricted by their trusts as to be obliged to accept the proposals of the local authority.
    MR. RAWLINSONjoined in the appeal that had been made by his hon. friend. He pointed out that the right, hon. Gentleman had apparently lost sight of one fact in his courteous reply He had said that these trustees were prepared to submit their case, but they had no power to do so. They had no power to apply at all. It was the local authority only who could invoke this tribunal. Therefore it was not a question of the willingness of the trustees, but of the willingness of the local authority to invoke the aid of the Commission. And their willingness would not come into question until sufficient breathing time had been allowed for a negotiation with the trustees and for the negotiation to fail. It was not probable that this Bill would pass into law until December. If it was passed in December and the tribunal commenced its work on January 1st,no breathing time would be left at all An unreasonable authority could rush these matters before the Commission at once. If there were first to be negotiations between the local authority and the trustees the Commission should not come into existence or be called into requisition before a reasonable time had been allowed for a settlement to be arrived at between the parties. Then why should they go to the trouble and expense of appointing a Commission which was to come into existence on January 1st? He submitted that they had a perfectly good case for asking for further time and for asking the Government not to allow this Commission to come into being until at least a year later, so that the parties might be able to exhaust all methods of
    120
    arriving at a compromise before they were rushed before this tribunal.
    MR. BLAKEsaid that if the Bill did not become law before the 31st of December it would not become law this session. But if it became law he did not think the question of expense was worth considering, having regard to the other issues involved. He could not conceive that the Commission would allow itself to be hurried into action until reasonable time had been allowed for negotiation, and therefore he was of opinion that the Government's proposition was preferable to that of the hon. Baronet.
    MR. BRIDGEMANsaid that if the Government seriously desired to have as many schools as possible coming to terms with the local education authority, without having recourse to the Commission, they were in his opinion taking a very unwise course in refusing to extend the time mentioned in the section. He thought at one time the right hon. Gentleman would be prepared to extend the time, if not for a year, at least for six months. He believed there should be an extension of time for the reason that the trustees might feel from reading the words of this section that the local education authority could take them at once before the Commission. If they felt that, they might think it would be impossible for them to come to an agreement with the local authority for want of available time to consider the question, and they would therefore dismiss any idea of attempting to come to an arrangement. If it was the wish of the Government that the voluntary schools should come to an arrangement voluntarily, the right hon. Gentleman must admit that the longer the time that was given to consider the question the less chance there would be of any friction.
    SIR WILLIAM ANSONsaid the great bulk of the voluntary schools in this country were held on trust, and he thought that if the right hon. Gentleman desired voluntary arrangements to be made it was essential that some time should be given. If this Bill became law in December and this section came into force on January 1st what chance

    121
    was there of making any arrangement? The Bill changed before their eyes every day. Even now there was a new clause which they might not have an opportunity to discuss. As the Bill contemplated the possibility of arrangements being come to, it would be most unreasonable to put such arrangements out of the question by bringing these compulsory powers into existence so quickly.
    SIR FRANCIS POWELLsaid he desired to mention a further point, and that was the early date at which this Bill was to come into operation. It was totally contrary to their usage to put an Act of this kind in force at so early a date. The argument held even stronger as regarded the exercise of the powers under Clause 8. He believed that many negotiations would reach a satisfactory conclusion if more time were given; whereas if the matter were hurried there might be regrettable action taken, resulting possibly in a hot dispute. It was also very desirable that more time should be allowed with a view to the framing of schemes. There was no doubt that these schemes in a large proportion of cases would assume something like the form of by-laws and regulations. If that were so, and they were to be satisfactory, it was really essential to the good working of the clause that ample time should be given for consideration. That applied to schools of every character. His suggestion was made in the interest of the public generally, and of education, and with a view to the effective working of the Act.
    SIR WILLIAM ANSONsaid in view of the fact that it might be re-considered at a later stage of the Bill he would ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.
    Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
    MR. RAWLINSONmoved to omit the words, " Commission appointed under this Act" and insert " Chancery Division of the High Court of Justice." He said the onus of defending this exceptional legislation clearly lay with the Government, and to-night they had learnt definitely that the Commisson when appointed was to do nothing more than the Court of Chancery was doing at the
    122
    present time. If that were so, what was the object of having a Commission on exactly the same lines as the Chancery Division? The clause from the procedure point of view was absolutely inadequate. It was highly expedient that instead of this Commission, which was the final court, being troubled with every case from start to finish the preliminary questions should be taken in chambers instead of in open court. That was done in the Chancery Division by Masters, and it was highly desirable that interrogatory matters should be dealt with in that way. Under the Bill there was no sort of machinery to deal with preliminary matters. It had been hinted that the Chancery Division would be over-worked. The judicial power of that division was at present very strong, and the Judges were well abreast of their work, so that there was ample time for them to deal with this matter. Then there was the question of costs. He ventured to submit that it was to be an itinerant Commission. The cost of bringing witnesses to London, however, would be infinitesimal, and the number of witnesses to be examined comparatively few. Such questions as that of the proper construction of a trust would be tested apart from any evidence at all. The expense of taking assistance from London to the country would be greater than the cost involved in bringing people from the country to London. There was the great prestige of the Chancery Court. The general public had thorough confidence in the Chancery Judges. He was not for a moment reflecting upon the capacity of the three gentlemen who it was proposed should constitute the Commission. The point was that a decision of the High Court gave greater satisfaction and carried more confidence than that of any arbitrator sent down to a place to determine a case. The mere fact that the Commissioners were appointed under a controversial Bill by the Government must necessarily tend more or less to weaken the confidence of the general public in any decision arrived at by them. Was it necessary to put into a Bill already teeming with difficulties and with matters sufficient to cause suspicion among trustees whose property was being dealt with in this way, a.

    123
    proposal of this sort, when there was at hand a tribunal fully competent to carry out the desire of the Government that the trusts should be administered according to the same law as they always had been?
    Amendment proposed—
    " In page 5, lines 9 and 10, to leave out the words ' Commission appointed under this Act,' and to insert the words ' Chancery Division of the High Court of Justice.'"—(Mr. Rawlinson.)
    Question proposed, " That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the clause."
    MR. MICKLEMquestioned the wisdom of allowing these arrangements between the trustees and the local authorities to go first to the High Court, then to the Court of Appeal, and then to the House of Lords. After a case had gone through the tribunal of the House of Lords, having regard to the fact that it was a matter which involved certain religious disputes between the trustees and the local authorities, the House of Lords might decide that they had no power to deal with it and might themselves appoint a commission, as they had recently done in regard to another matter. Such a suggestion would not be made by any member of the Bar who had practised in the Chancery Division of the High Court. It would mean that in each case where the trustees and the local authority did not agree there would be heavy expense incurred in trying the matter before the court. His hon. friend seemed to think that it was a very simple matter to try a case in the Court of Chancery. Apparently he had overlooked the fact that although at the present moment the work of the Chancery Court might not be so heavy as in former years, yet it was so heavy that the Judges were always engaged on that work, and to bring in a number of new cases would inevitably mean delay. It would also mean that in every case they would have to have the whole business done by professional lawyers. Why did they want to bring in the lawyer to settle these disputes? Let them imagine bringing such disputes up to the High Court and employing counsel to argue the matter
    124
    in Chambers. The expense of trying these matters before the High Court would be very great. If the trustees were reasonable, in nine cases out of ten they would be met by a reasonable local authority. If there was any difference of opinion the Commissioners would go down to the locality and settle the matter in ten minutes to the satisfaction of everybody.
    LORD R. CECILsaid he had never heard a speech with which he more profoundly disagreed. It was their old friend, the advantages of arbitration over the courts of the country. These were not cases which could be decided by tossing up a halfpenny. Questions might arise involving considerable legal difficulties, such as the construction of trust deeds. But he could not support the Amendment, because the particular tribunal constituted by the Government consisted of very eminent and impartial gentlemen, and he preferred that these three gentlemen should try the issues that might arise in the first instance. He recognised that it would be desirable to have some kind of appeal on points of law. For those reasons he should not be able to support the Amendment.
    MR. BLAKEsaid he was averse to the practice of imposing special duties on Judges of the High Court which tended to divert them from the discharge of their ordinary duties. The Commissioners would be fully competent to discharge the judicial duties which would devolve upon them, and the discharge of those duties would be facilitated by the combination of an effort to moderate asperity between the parties. The characteristics that belonged to these gentlemen were such as led to the belief that a moderating influence would be exercised, such as would not come into play under the rigidity of proceedings before the court. At the same time provision should be made for appeal upon legal points.
    THE PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY TO THE BOARD OF EDUCATION (Mr. LOUGH,)did not think the Amendment was serious, and it was obvious it met with no support. Reasons against it had been clearly

    125
    stated and he hoped the Committee would come to a decision.
    SIR WILLIAM ANSONsaid the hon. Gentleman was in the habit of supposing a question was not serious until the course of discussion undeceived him. He was himself impressed with the value of the Commission until he heard from the hon. Member for Watford the sketch of the manner in which those gentlemen were to do their work. According to that hon. Gentleman the considerations which induced trustees to withhold their school from a local authority were to be disposed of within a short interval between luncheon and the departure of an afternoon train. If such was to be the off-hand manner of dealing with the construction of a trust deed he was inclined to think there was much to be said in favour of the Amendment of his hon. friend. If they were to be told that the Commission was to deal in this off-hand and high-handed manner with the construction of a trust deed, he was inclined to think that, unless they got more information as to the modus operandi under this Bill, it would be much better to go to the Court of Chancery. There was an appeal from a judgment of the Court of Chancery, but there was to be no appeal under the Bill.
    SIR WILLIAM ANSONmoved to omit the words after " scheme," and insert " for the use of the schoolhouse for the purpose of a public elementary school in accordance with the trust of the schoolhouse." He said that on Clause 2 the Minister for Education pointed out that the local education authority was to have the use of the schoolhouse for the purpose of a public elementary school, and, so far as was necessary, to carry out the necessary repairs and alterations. His object was to limit the use of the school-house by the local authority to that purpose, and beyond this, to enable the trustees to carry out the intention of the trust as nearly as possible. The words in the clause left open the possibility of the building being used for a purpose other than that of an elementary school. He believed it was the intention of the Government that the use of the school-
    126
    house should be confined to the purpose of a public elementary school.
    Amendment proposed—
    " In page 5, line 10, to leave out from the word 'scheme,'to the end of subsection (1), and insert the words 'for the use of the schoolhouse for the purpose of a public elementary school in accordance with the trust of the school-house.' "—(Sir William Anson).
    Question proposed, " That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Clause."
    MR. LOUGHsaid there had not been a single argument advanced in favour of the Amendment. The Government much preferred the words in their own drafting of the Bill. He could not conceive any reason for making the change proposed. The Amendment did not seem to be in any sense an improvement on the words proposed to be left out. He hoped the hon. Gentleman would not think it necessary to press the matter further.
    LORD BALCARRESsaid the Parliamentary Secretary had not met the point raised by his hon. friend. There were certain trusts which had dual obligations—namely, to deal with elementary education, and to deal also with parochial work of a charitable and social nature. The Amendment moved by his hon. friend would make perfectly clear what the Commission was expected to do in relation to these trusts. The Parliamentary Secretary had brushed aside the Amendment as if it were an obstructive or stupid one, but it was obvious that these dual trusts were more numerous than the hon. Gentleman seemed to think. He appealed to the hon. Gentleman to give this matter fuller consideration than he had yet given to it.
    SIR F. BANBURYsaid the position which the Parliamentary Secretary had taken in regard to this Amendment was an extraordinary one. It seemed to him that there was great force in the Amendment, and that it deserved greater consideration than had been accorded to it by the hon. Gentleman. The Amendment preserved the right of the pious donor to use all the money he had given for the

    127
    purposes of the trust. He trusted that the hon. Gentleman opposite would give some reason why the desires of people who created trusts should be ignored as would be done if the clause were passed as it stood.
    MR. PERKSsaid he hoped the Government would give an answer to two very important questions on which hitherto they had not had a very clear answer. He asked these questions on behalf of the Wesleyan Education Committee, representing a large number of Wesleyan schools in the country, and he hoped he might have a clear answer. The first question was whether in the event of Wesleyan church trustees being unable to come to an agreement with the local authorities concerning their schools, which he hoped would not be the case, the local authorities might cause such trustees, to appear before the Commission for the purpose of inspecting and readjusting their trusts. The other point was whether the Commission had jurisdiction to draft a scheme for Wesleyan trust property, where the trusts were partly for education and partly for non-educational purposes. Might they take it authoritatively from the Government, as absolutely their intention that in such cases, the moment the Wesleyan trustees produced their model church deed or other legal instrument which provided for school and church purposes, the Commissioners were required to decide that they had no jurisdiction? He hoped the Solicitor-General would give them a clear answer to these very important questions, as the Wesleyan church had large interests at stake, and they wanted to know how the clause affected them.
    SIR W. ROBSON, who was almost inaudible in the Gallery, was understood to say that in regard to the first question the answer was that the local authority might be left to deal with the trustees, and bring them before the Commission if they desired that a scheme should be made. But if the trust deed was one which involved an alternative trust, the Commission would never dream of doing more than the Court of Chancery, or of drawing up a scheme of its own when there was already an adequate way of dealing with it provided in the trust deed.
    MR. PERKS: How is the local authority to know what the trust deeds contain until they get the trustees before the Commission.
    SIR W. ROBSONsaid he did not think the trustees would display any difficulty about letting the local authority know what the trust deeds were. As to the second question put by the hon. Member for Louth, whether the Commission had jurisdiction to draw up a scheme where the trust was partly educational and partly not, that again depended on the trust. It was impossible to answer precisely questions of this kind which covered an immense variety of trusts or to say what the Commission might hold in regard to some particular trust. It would be the duty of the Commission to give all the effect they could to the terms of the trust deed.
    SIR E. CARSONsaid he thought that the question which had been raised in this debate was one of importance having regard to the way in which the clause was framed. It might be that the Government only meant to give jurisdiction to the Commissioners in the case of elementary schools, but that was what they did not say. In fact they said exactly the contrary. As the hon. Member for Louth had said, unfortunately the opinion of the Solicitor-General expressed in Parliament would not have the least effect on the Court when the Act came to be construed. What was the scheme of the section? It was that when the trustees were brought before the Commission, the Commission was to frame a scheme with respect to the mode in which effect was to be given to the trust of the schoolhouse in the future. And then by sub-section (b) if the Commission were—
    " Of opinion that the use of the schoolhouse for the purpose of a public elementary school by the local education authority in accordance with this Act is the best mode of giving effect to the trust they may by this scheme make provision for the purpose, subject to such conditions (if any) as to payment or other matters as may be agreed to by the local education authority, and as the Commission think just."
    The very fact that restrictions were put upon the Commission showed that they were to fix a scheme to carry out the trust. The object of the Amendment

    129
    of his hon. friend was to restrict this section to that which the Government said was their purpose, viz., that the Commissioners were not to interfere with the trust unless for the purpose of making it available for a public elementary school if they thought that that was the best way of carrying it out. Anyone who had looked at the Return laid on the Table of the House would see that this clause would bear on an immense number of schools where there
    was an alternative trust. He thought there could be no doubt that, under the section as it stood, even in the case of an alternative trust, there would be jurisdiction for the Commissioners to settle a scheme for the purpose of carrying out that trust.
    Question put.
    The Committee divided:—Ayes, 282; Noes, 123. (Division List No. 189.)

    AYES.

    Acland, Francis Dyke

    Cobbold, Felix Thornley

    Haslam, James (Derbyshire)

    Allen, A. Acland (Christchurch)

    Collins, Stephen (Lambeth)

    Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth)

    Allen, Charles P. (Stroud)

    Collins,SirWm.J.(S.Pancras,W

    Haworth, Arthur A.

    Astbury, John Meir

    Cooper, G. J.

    Hazel, Dr. A. E.

    Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth)

    Corbett,C.H.(Sussex,E.Grinst'd

    Hedges, A. Paget

    Baker, Joseph A. (Finsbury, E.)

    Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.

    Helme, Norval Watson

    Balfour, Robert (Lanark)

    Cory, Clifford John

    Henderson, J.M. (Aberdeen, W.

    Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight)

    Cotton, Sir H. J. S.

    Herbert, Col. Ivor (Mon., S.)

    Barlow, JohnEmmott(Somerset

    Cowan, W. H.

    Herbert, T. Arnold (Wycombe)

    Barlow, Percy (Bedford)

    Cremer, William Randal

    Higham, John Sharp

    Barnard, E. B.

    Crombie, John William

    Hobhouse, Charles E. H.

    Barnes, G. N.

    Crosfield, A. H.

    Hodge, John

    Beale, W. P.

    Crossley, William J.

    Holland, Sir William Henry

    Beauchamp, E.

    Davies, David (Montgomery Co

    Hope, John Deans (Fife, West)

    Beaumont, W. C. B. (Hexham)

    Davies, Ellis William (Eifion)

    Hope, W. Bateman(Somerset,N.

    Bell, Richard

    Davies, W. Howell (Bristol, S.)

    Horniman, Emslie John

    Bellairs, Carlyon

    Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh.

    Hudson, Walter

    Belloc, Hilaire Joseph Peter R.

    Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.

    Hutton, Alfred Eddison

    Benn,SirJ Williams (Devonp'rt

    Dodd, W. H.

    Illingworth, Percy H.

    Benn, W.(Tw'rHamlets,S.Geo.

    Duckworth, James

    Isaacs, Rufus Daniel

    Bennett, E. N.

    Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness

    Jackson, R. S.

    Bethell, J. H. (Essex, Romford

    Duncan, J. H. (York, Otley)

    Jenkins, J.

    Bethell, T. R. (Essex, Maldon)

    Dunne,MajorE. Martin (Walsall

    Johnson, John (Gateshead)

    Billson, Alfred

    Edwards, Clement (Denbigh)

    Johnson, W. (Nuneaton)

    Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine

    Edwards, Enoch (Hanley)

    Jones,SirD.Brynmor (Swansea)

    Black, ArthurW.(Bedfordshire)

    Edwards, Frank (Radnor)

    Jones, Lief (Appleby)

    Bolton,T. D. (Derbyshire,N. E.)

    Ellis, Rt. Hon. John Edward

    Jones, William (Carnarvonshire

    Boulton, A. C. F. (Ramsey)

    Essex, R. W.

    Jowett, F. W.

    Brace, William

    Evans, Samuel T.

    Kekewich, Sir George

    Bramsdon, T. A.

    Everett, R. Lacey

    Kincaid-Smith, Captain

    Branch, James

    Faber, G. H. (Boston)

    King, Alfred John (Knutsford)

    Brigg, John

    Fenwick, Charles

    Kitson, Sir James

    Bright, J. A.

    Fiennes, Hon, Eustace

    Laidlaw, Robert

    Broeklehurst. W. D.

    Findlav, Alexander

    Lamb, Edmund G. (Leominster

    Brodie, H. C.

    Foster, Rt. Hon. Sir Walter

    Lamb, Ernest H. (Rochester)

    Brooke, Stopford

    Fowler, Rt Hon. Sir Henry

    Lambert, George

    Brunner,J.F. L. (Lancs., Leigh)

    Fuller, John Michael F.

    Lamont, Norman

    Buckmaster, Stanley O.

    Fullerton, Hugh

    Layland-Barratt, Francis

    Burns, Rt. Hon. John

    Gibb, James (Harrow)

    Lea,Hugh Cecil (St.Pancras.E.)

    Burnyeat, J. D. W.

    Gill, A. H.

    Leese,SirJosephF. (Accrington)

    Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas

    Gladstone, Rt.Hn.HerbertJohn

    Lever,A.Levy (Essex, Harwich

    Buxton, Rt.Hn. Sydney Chas.

    Glover, Thomas

    Lever, W. H. (Cheshire, Wirral)

    Byles, William Pollard

    Goddard, Daniel Ford

    Levy, Maurice

    Cairns, Thomas

    Grant, Corrie

    Lewis, John Herbert

    Carr-Gomm, H. W.

    Greenwood, G. (Peterborough)

    Lloyd-George, Rt. Hon. David

    Gauston,Rt. Hn. RichardKnight

    Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward

    Lough, Thomas

    Cawley, Frederick

    Gordon, Sir W. Brampton

    Lupton, Arnold

    Channing, Francis Allston

    Hall, Frederick

    Luttrell, Hugh Fownes

    Cheetham, John Frederick

    Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Lewis

    Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester)

    Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R.

    Hardy, George A. (Suffolk)

    Macdonald,J.M.(FalkirkB'ghs),

    Clarke, C. Goddard

    Harmsworth, Cecil B. (Worc'r)

    Mackarness, Frederic C.

    Cleland, J. W.

    Hart-Davies, T.

    Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.

    Clough, W.

    Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale)

    M'Crae, George

    Clynes, J. R.

    Harwood, George

    M'Kenna, Reginald

    M'Laren, Sir C. B. (Leicester)

    Raphael, Herbert H.

    Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)

    M'Laren, H. D. (Stafford, W.)

    Rea, Russell (Gloucester)

    Thomas, SirA.(Glamorgan, E.)

    M'Micking, Major G.

    Rees, J. D.

    Thomas.David Alfred (Merthyr

    Maddison, Frederick

    Richards, Thos, (W. Monm'th)

    Thompson, J. W.H.(Somerset,E

    Mallet, Charles E.

    Rickett, J. Compton

    Tillett, Louis John

    Manfield, Harry (Northants)

    Ridsdale, E. A.

    Torrance, A. M.

    Marks.G. Croydon(Launceston)

    Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)

    Toulmin, George

    Marnham, F. J.

    Roberts, G. H. (Norwich)

    Trevelyan, Charles Philips

    Mason, A. E. W. (Coventry)

    Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)

    Verney, F. W.

    Massie, J.

    Robertson,SirG.Scott(Bradfr'd

    Vivian, Henry

    Masterman, C. F. G.

    Robinson, S.

    Walker, H. De R. (Leicester)

    Micklem, Nathaniel

    Robson, Sir William Snowdon

    Walsh, Stephen

    Molteno, Percy Alport

    Rogers, F. E. Newman

    Walters, John Tudor

    Montgomery, H. H.

    Runciman, Walter

    Walton, Sir John L. (Leeds, S.

    Morgan, G. Hay (Cornwall)

    Russell, T. W.

    Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

    Morley, Rt. Hon. John

    Rutherford, V. H. (Brentford)

    Wardle, George J.

    Morse, L. L.

    Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland

    Watt, H. Anderson

    Morton, Alpheus Cleophas

    Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel)

    Wedgwood, Josiah C.

    Murray, James

    Scarisbrick, T. T. L.

    Weir, James Galloway

    Myer, Horatio

    Schwann, C. Duncan (Hyde)

    White, George (Norfolk)

    Napier, T. B.

    Schwann,SirC.E. (Manchester)

    White, J. D. (Dumbartonshire)

    Nicholls, George

    Scott,A.H.(Ashton under Lyne

    Whitehead, Rowland

    Nicholson, CharlesN.(Doncast'r

    Sears, J. E.

    Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

    Norman, Henry

    Seddon, J.

    Whittaker, Sir Thomas Palmer

    Norton, Capt. Cecil William

    Seely, Major J. B.

    Wiles, Thomas

    Nussey, Thomas Willans

    Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)

    Williams, J. (Glamorgan)

    Nuttall, Harry

    Shaw, Rt. Hon. T. (Hawick B.)

    Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)

    O'Donnell, C. J. (Walworth)

    Shipman, Dr. John G.

    Wills, Arthur Walters

    Parker, James (Halifax)

    Silcock, Thomas Ball

    Wilson, Henry J.(York, W.R.)

    Partington, Oswald

    Simon, John Allsebrook

    Wilson, John (Durham, Mid)

    Paulton, James Mellor

    Sloan, Thomas Henry

    Wilson, J. W. (Worcestersh,N.)

    Pearce, Robert (Staffs., Leek)

    Soares, Ernest J.

    Wilson. W. T. (Westhoughton)

    Pearce, William (Limehouse)

    Spicer, Albert

    Winfrey, R.

    Pearson, Sir W. D. (Colchester)

    Stanley, Hn.A.Lyulph (Chesh.)

    Wodehouse, Lord(Norfolk,Mid)

    Pearson.W.H.M. (Suffolk, Eye)

    Steadman, W. C.

    Woodhouse,SirJ.T.(Huddersf'd

    Perks, Robert William

    Stewart, Halley (Greenock)

    Yoxall, James Henry

    Philipps, J. Wynford(Pembroke

    Stewart-Smith, D. (Kendal

    Pickersgil1, Edward Hare

    Strachey, Sir Edward

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr.

    Pirie, Duncan V.

    Straus, B. S. (Mile End)

    Whiteley and Mr. J. A.

    Price, C. E. (Edinb'gh,Central)

    Stuart, James (Sunderland)

    Pease

    Price,RobertJohn (Norfolk, E.)

    Summerbell, T.

    Radford, G. H.

    Sutherland, J. E.

    NOSE.

    Abraham, William (Cork, N.E.)

    Chamberlain,RtHn.J.A.(Worc)

    Halpin, J.

    Anson, Sir William Reynell

    Coates, E. Feetham(Lewisham.

    Hammond, John

    Arnold-Forster, Rt.Hn.HughO.

    Condon, Thomas Joseph

    Harrison-Broadley, Col. H. B.

    Ashley, W. W.

    Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow)

    Hayden, John Patrick

    Balcarres, Lord

    Craig, CharlesCurtis(Antrim,S.

    Hill, Sir Clement (Shrewsbury)

    Baldwin, Alfred

    Craik, Sir Henry

    Hills, J. W.

    Balfour, Rt.Hn.A.J.(CityLond.

    Crean, Eugene

    Hogan, Michael

    Banbury, Sir Frederick George

    Cullinan, J.

    Houston. Robert Paterson

    Barrie, H. T. (Londonderry, N.

    Delany, William

    Hunt, Rowland

    Beckett, Hon. Gervase

    Devlin,CharlesRamsay(Galw'y

    Joyce, Michael

    Bignold, Sir Arthur

    Dillon, John

    Kennaway, Rt.Hn.Sir John H.

    Blake, Edward

    Dolan, Charles Joseph

    Kennedy, Vincent Paul

    Boland, John

    Donelan, Captain A.

    Kenyon-Slaney, Rt.Hn.Col. W.

    Boyle, Sir Edward

    Doughty, Sir George

    Kilbride, Denis

    Bridgeman, W Clive

    Douglass Rt. Hon. A. Akers

    King, Sir HenrySeymour (Hull)

    Brotherton, Edward Allen

    Duffy, William J.

    Law, Hugh A.(Donegal, W.)

    Burdett-Coutts, W.

    Duncan, Robert(Lanark.Gov'n

    Lee, ArthurH.(Hants.,Fareham

    Burke, E. Haviland

    Faber, Capt. W. V. (Hants., W.)

    Long, Col.CharlesW.(Evesham)

    Butcher, Samuel Henry

    Finch, Rt. Hon. George H.

    London, W.

    Campbell, Rt. Hon. J. H. M.

    Flavin, .Michael Joseph

    Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred

    Carlile, E. Hildred

    Flynu, James Christopher

    MacNeil, John Gordon Swift

    Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

    Gardner, Ernest (Berks, East)

    Mac Veagh, Jeremiah (Down, S.)

    Castlereagh, Viscount

    Gibbs, G. A. (Bristol, West)

    MacVeigh, Charles (Donegal,E.)

    Cave, George

    Gilhooly, James

    M'Kean, John

    Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

    Ginnell, L

    M'Killop, W.

    Cecil, Lord R. (Marylebone, E.)

    Haddock, George R.

    Magnus, Sir Philip

    132

    133

    Meagher, Michael

    Percy, Earl

    Starkey, John R.

    Mooney, J. J.

    Powell, .Sir Francis Sharp

    Sullivan, Donal

    Murphy, John

    Power, Patrick Joseph

    Talbot, Rt.Hn.J.G(Oxf'd Univ.

    Nield, Herbert

    Rasch, Sir Frederic Carne

    Thomson, W. Mitchell-(Lanark)

    Nolan, Joseph

    Ratcliff, Major R. F.

    Thornton. Percy M.

    O'Brien.Kendal(TipperaryMid.

    Rawlinson, John Frederick P.

    Turnour, Viscount

    O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

    Reddy, M.

    Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid)

    O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W.

    Redmond, John E. (Waterford)

    White, Patrick (Meath, North)

    O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)

    Redmond, William (Clare)

    Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.)

    O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)

    Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall)

    Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

    O'Dowd, John

    Rutherford, John (Lancashire)

    Young, Samuel

    O'Hare, Patrick

    Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool)

    O'Kelly, James(Roscommon, N.

    Salter, Arthur Clavell

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Sir

    O'Malley, William

    Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert

    Alexander Acland-Hood and

    O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

    Sheehan, Daniel Daniel

    Viscount Valentia.

    Parkes, Ebenezer

    Smith, F.E.(Liverpool, Walton)

    Pease,Herbert Pike (Darlington

    Snowden, P.

    LORD R. CECILmoved to amend sub-section (2) by leaving out paragraphs (a) and (b), including the four sub-clauses of paragraph (b), and substituting for them, the words " and shall have regard to." He said that the effect of the Amendment would be to direct the Commissioners to act in accordance with the principles followed by the High Court in exercising as the successors of the Court of Chancery the ordinary jurisdiction as to charities inherent in that Court, and to have regard to such other circumstances as might, in their opinion, properly be considered. By the clause as it stood the Government directed the Commissioners to make a scheme in accordance with the principles of the High Court, and then proposed a series of limiting instructions which could only result in cutting down the price to be paid by the local authority to the owners of the schoolhouse. That was an unsatisfactory way of dealing with the question. The proper way of dealing with it was to leave the Commissioners a free hand and direct them to do justice between the parties according to the principles of the High Court of Justice. That was the course which was pursued in much simpler matters and in regard to subjects of much less importance. Under the ordinary arbitration clause the view had been taken that it was not a proper course to give the arbitrators instructions. The proper course to take was to appoint a proper tribunal and leave them to administer the matter acting upon general considerations. The only purpose of these
    134
    sub-clauses was to cut down the price. In regard to sub-section (a), why should a five years guarantee be required for the effective continuance of the school? Surely that was a matter which might well be left to the Commissioners. Supposing the Commissioners were satisfied that the trust could well be carried out without a guarantee, or a guarantee for a shorter period, why were they to be compelled only to pass a scheme which would bring a guarantee for five years into force? He thought that there were very few cases in regard to which the proposal would be necessary. He could not, moreover, conceive upon what ground of justice sub-section (b)) was imported into the Bill. If the school had received grants or assistance from public funds towards the building or repair of the schoolhouse it had only received its proper payment for the performance of public duties, and he did not see why, the schoolhouse being the property of the owners, such considerations should be taken into account, in fixing the price to be paid. Then in regard to the provision that, the Commissioners should take into account the limited nature of the user of the school by the local education authority, that was quite unnecessary. He quite agreed that it was a question to be considered, because it necessarily arose. But it was not necessary to put such a direction into an Act of Parliament, and as he had said, the only effect of doing so would be to invite the Commissioners to give a less price than they would otherwise award. Again, he could not imagine what bearing the facilities given in the school for special religious instruction and the

    135
    performance of the original trusts had to do with the matter. The facilities given would not benefit the owners of the school house but the children, who had received or would receive instruction. Then it was provided that the Commissioners should take into account the cost of maintenance and repair. But that was a matter which any tribunal would naturally consider without any special direction. If one was buying a property, naturally they would consider the cost of keeping it up, and of course it was an element which must be considered in fixing the price. To insert such a provision was an insult to the Commissioners, and only showed the animus with which this sub - clause had been drawn. ["Oh."] Well, he could not see what other purpose was served by putting these provisions in. They were certainly not put in to increase the price, and their only object could be to cut it down. In his judgment that was the whole object of the clause. He thought that when they were appointing a special tribunal composed of very eminent gentlemen, they might trust them to do what was just. The whole of these conditions were therefore superfluous, and in some respects unjust, and they ought to be cut out of the clause.
    Amendment proposed—
    " In page 5, line 16, to leave out from the word ' court,' down to the word ' such ' in line 39, and to insert the words ' and shall have regard to.' "—(Lord R. Cecil.)
    Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out, to the word ' sufficient,' in line 19, stand part of the Clause."
    SIR W. ROBSONsaid he was sure hon. Members would see that it was only fair to the Commissioners that there should be something in the nature of general directions as to the principles on which they were to proceed. They were only illustrative, administrative directions and but slightly limited their discretion. For instance, it was laid down in sub-section (a) that where it was proposed to carry on a certified efficient school as an elementary school there should be a guarantee for the
    136
    effective continuance of the school for at least five years. That had to deal with the case of schools which were useful schools for the education of the whole area in which they were placed. Let them suppose there had been an application to the Commissioners to see what was to be done with a school; no arrangement had been come to, and the school had ceased, to be an elementary school, and was to be carried on as an efficient school. There the Commissioners-had to say that the scheme was not one that could be sanctioned unless a guarantee was given that it should be carried on for five years. Where an application was made with regard to a school of this kind, which would not be in the position of a school receiving a public grant, the Commissioners were very properly directed that no scheme was adequate unless accompanied by such a guarantee. Then, when a local authority was asked to make a payment, why should not payments already received by way of grants or assistance be taken into account? The schools were not self supporting. They were coming to the public for aid in order that they might be carried on as public schools, and what more reasonable condition could be attached than that those who were fixing the rent should have regard to the public money received by a school? As to the limited nature of the user of the schoolhouse, surely that was a reasonable direction. Obviously it would be very unjust to fix a rent without taking that into account. He suggested that there might be a modification of the rent in cases which approximated to extreme cases. They were not putting any fetters on the Commissioners, but were inviting them to take into consideration the fact that, while the owners of voluntary schools were being relieved of burdens, much of the burden of the trust was being, taken over by the local authority.
    MR. A. J. BALFOURsaid the hon. and learned Gentleman had not denied that every one of the conditions which his noble friend desired to omit were conditions which would limit the pecuniary considerations given by the public authority to the school. According to the Solicitor-General these were all.

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    general, illustrative, and indicative directions, but why were the illustrations all on one side? Why had all the illustrations been unilateral? There were two parties who came before the tribunal, and the House gave directions to the tribunal, all of which were intended to illustrate the procedure to be adopted. But all those illustrations went to diminish the consideration to be given to a school, and all the ingenuity of the Government had failed to discover one illustration which would tend towards the augmentation of the consideration. That was unfair and one-sided treatment. The right hon. Gentleman had over and over again repeated that these Commissioners were to be Judges, who had to consider the procedure of the Court of Chancery, and nothing else. Their duties were to have no administrative character. What was his astonishment, then, to hear the hon. and learned Gentleman say that what the Commission had to consider under subsection (a) were the educational necessities of the district. What had these three gentlemen to do with the educational necessities of the district?
    SIR W. ROBSONsaid he did not state that the Commissioners had to consider the educational necessities. What he had said was that the Government had to consider the educational needs of the district, and, therefore, in dealing with any scheme which might be formulated by the Commissioners, they had thought it right that the Commissioners should not treat a proposal to carry on an elementary school as adequate, having regard, of course, to the necessities of the district, unless it was accompanied by a guarantee. That was a very different statement.
    MR. A. J. BALFOURsaid he saw no difference at all. The original proposition of the Government reiterated and reiterated was that nothing was to influence the three Judges but the considerations which would influence the Court of Chancery if they were dealing with the trust. Neither the Minister for Education nor the Solicitor-General could say that the Court of Chancery would ever stipulate that the school must be carried on for five years. Sub-section (a) was absolutely inconsistent with the repeated pledges of
    138
    the Minister for Education that these Commissioners should take nothing into account except the law as carried out by the Court of Chancery. His observation with regard to sub-section (b) was—what was to be the position of these three great lawyers whom the Government had asked to be Commissioners? Had they merely to consider what would best carry out the intention of the original framers of the trust? Supposing they came to the conclusion that £100 a year rent should be paid and that there should be religious instruction on two days a week, could they order that? No, because their scheme, according to the words of the sub-section, was to be—
    "Subject to such conditions (if any) as to payment or other matters as may be agreed to by the local education authority.''
    The Government proposed to set up a court which was to interpret the trust deeds as a Court of Chancery, but before this Court could give its decision it must consult the local authority, and the local authority was to be supreme. What happened then? Either the Commission would have to modify their decision, or else the scheme must be abortive from the beginning. There was another alternative, which he understood was rejected by the Government, namely, that the local authorities should be obliged to accept the scheme of the Commissioners. Upon that depended the status of the three Judges and the fate of the schools with which they were dealing. If the three Commissioners were not to give their own decisions, but were to be influenced by the local authority, where did the impartiality of these Judges come in? If on the other hand the local authority was not to be allowed to interfere at any stage of the proceedings and would have to wait until the final verdict of the court was given, what was going to happen then? The local authority must either accept or refuse. If it accepted then there was an end to the matter, but if it refused what would happen? The Government said one of the objects of this clause was to prevent schools becoming derelict. Upon the face of it, it seemed that the schools must become derelict. He thought at all events that, it would be clear from what he had said that if there was no obscurity in the

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    mind of His Majesty's Government there was considerable obscurity in the Bill which they had framed, and that obscurity had in no sense been removed by the answer which the hon. and learned Gentleman had given to his noble friend. The only other point which he needed to dwell upon was the question of whether they ought to diminish the rent according to the amount of denominational religious instruction given in the school. It seemed to him a most astonishing proposition to say that the rent of a school should be diminished according to the amount of religious instruction. He could not himself see the connection between rent and religion. The rent should be determined largely by the advantages which the authorities derived from the school. The school was not worth less to them because religious education was carried on there as well as secular education. Why then should they pay less? A phrase had fallen from the Solicitor-General which had caused some surprise, because it was not to be found in the Bill. It was the phrase " certified efficient school." But the explanation, if singular, was not remote. The Solicitor-General was quoting, not from the Bill, but from the speech in which it was introduced by the Minister for Education. Perhaps the House would permit him to read one or two extracts from that speech. The right hon. Gentleman said †
    " The Commission will be the authority before which those owners of the school-houses who have not come to terms with the local authority will he carried for the purpose of determining their schemes. In making such schemes ' the Commissioners shall act in accordance with the principles followed by the High Court in exercising the ordinary jurisdiction as to charities inherent in that Court, but they shall not treat the proposal to carry on an elementary school as a proper mode of giving effect to the trusts of the school-house, unless sufficient guarantee is given for the effective continuance of the school as a certified efficient school for a period of at least five years.'"
    The right hon. Gentleman went on to say:
    " A certified efficient school is a school within the law in this sense, that to attend it is to obey the law, but it does not receive any assistance from the rates or taxes."
    † See (4) Debates, clv., 1036.
    140
    Then he said:
    " If they are of opinion that the best mode of giving effect to the trust is to allow the local education authority to use the school-house for the purposes of a public elementary school, they may by the scheme require the local education authority to comply with such conditions as to payment, otherwise not being inconsistent with this Act, as they think just."
    The hon. and learned Member for Mid. Glamorgan had declared that he voted for this Bill because it embodied the principle of local option. He was mistaken. He voted for the introduction of the Bill knowing that according to the plan of the Minister for Education the decision of the Commissioners was to be obligatory on the local authority. That plan alone would relieve this clause from all its contradictions and inconsistencies, and prevent a local authority from throwing in the face of the Commissioners the scheme which they had prepared. He thought the Committee would feel that some further explanation was desirable from the right hon. Gentleman, more particularly to show how the plan of this clause fitted in with the repeated assurances that the functions of these judges were to be such as might be exercised by the Court of Chancery, carrying out the same law, having the same authority and commanding the same general respect.
    MR. BIRRELLsaid the primary duty of the three Commissioners was to decide the question " Aye " or " No " whether, having regard to the trusts of any particular school brought before them, they had in their opinion no other course than to decide by the principle of equity that they could only fulfil those trusts by continuing it as a public elementary school under the control of the local education authority. That was a judicial duty. The right hon. Gentleman was not particularly well acquainted with the duties of the judges of the Chancery Division, and on that fact he probably ought to be congratulated The Chancery judges having, in the first instance, expressed their opinion on the trusts submitted to them, had constantly, as part of their duty under the Charitable Trusts Acts and other Acts, to frame schemes and to settle terms in accordance with the principles they had laid down.

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    Though it was true, therefore, that their main duty would be the determination of a nice point of law, any one who read the clause and what flowed from their decision, assuming that the school should be transferred, would see that there was an obligation to frame a scheme giving effect to the decision that the Commissioners had already come to. He did not think that there was anything inconsistent in what he had said. While the Commissioners had the duty of interpreting the trusts they might say to a school, "You can go away; your trusts are quite tight, and you cannot possibly be transferred to the local authority." Thus there was an end of the matter, though under the law of cy-pres the duty was imposed upon them of framing a scheme to give effect to their decision. The noble Lord proposed to strike out the sub-sections in order to leave a free hand to the Commissione0rs. Having regard to the eminence of the Commissioners, perhaps the words in the sub-section were not absolutely necessary. But as to the building grants which the schools had received, he thought that it was a matter of business that they should be brought fairly to the minds of the Commissioners. When a property was being sold and a price was being asked for it, it surely was not irrelevant that the owners of the schools should be reminded that the public had already contributed towards their support. As to the phrase " certified efficient schools," he said that he intended on the occasion referred to by the right hon. Gentleman to avoid making use of quotation marks; he intended to give a general paraphrase of the words; but when he came to the point his command of language failed him a little, and he read the words from a draft that had been subsequently altered. But the alteration was in favour of the contention of hon. Members opposite, and he did not see why the Government should be blamed for altering the Bill in the interest of a juster clause. The point, however, was as to whether sub-section (a) was a fair subsection. He thought that it was, for reasons already given by the Solicitor-General. The Commissioners were not simply to be told by the representatives of the trustees, " We will keep the school going on our own account." They were
    142
    to be able to say, "if you are to carry on your school outside the local authority, if you are yourselves to keep it open as an effective school, you must not only say that that is your intention, you must give us some assurance." The word "guarantee" was not a technical term. They were to have an assurance from men of honour that there would be good reason to suppose that the school would be carried on for five years. That would be a guarantee that there were behind the school the means of support. He did not mean to say there must be promises of support on which they could sue for the recovery of money; but there must be a genuine belief and guarantee that there were behind the school persons of sufficient means to secure that the school was likely to continue. Sub-section (a) was a reasonable one. A point was made against him; but the noble Lord's Amendment proposed to strike out all those words on which the point arose. The point was that he used language which went to show that, if the Commission had made a scheme and fixed a rent as being a fair and proper rent, it ought to be obligatory upon the local authority. If that were so the acceptance of the noble Lord's Amendment would be the best way to get himself out of that difficulty, which would then disappear altogether. But he was not going to accept it. The proper time to make the clause conformable with his language would be upon an Amendment on that sub-section, and not upon the present Amendment, The difficulties were, of course, with the local authority itself— whether there was the power to enforce a money payment on the local authority. He would like to have time to consider the proposal. He would give the subject his most careful consideration, and if he thought his speech involved an obligation of that kind he would give effect to it.
    MR. EVELYN CECILsaid that they had just affirmed in passing sub-section (2) that the Commission was to exercise the jurisdiction of a Court of Chancery, but no sooner had they done so than it was proposed immediately to restrict that very jurisdiction. He thought that was

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    thoroughly unwise, and that the Commission should act completely in accordance with the principles of the Court of Chancery. Otherwise a trusting people might be misled. The right hon. Gentleman the President of the Board of Education talked of applying cy-pres doctrine, but he did not understand how that could apply to the present case. He always understood that the Courts could not vary a trust to meet their own views as to what would be for the general advantage of the public. Then there was the question of financial guarantee for the effective continuance of the school for a period of at least five years. To whom was that guarantee to be given? Was it to be given to the local authority? And supposing it was not fulfilled, what then was to be done? Was a new scheme to be made? And what was to happen at the end of the five years? Was there then to be a new scheme? It was supposed that the Commission was to be brought in to settle differences when the owners of a schoolhouse and the local education authority were at loggerheads. But according to the sub-section the local authority was to set the Commission in motion, and then it was to have an absolute veto on its proceedings. He thought that the whole clause was ludicrous, and he could not understand how it could be put into operation with any consistency whatever. There were no other means, therefore, in his opinion, of dealing with the problem before them than by accepting the Amendment now before the Committee.
    MR. WYNDHAMsaid the Minister for Education had given, not a pledge, but an undertaking to reconsider his attitude when they reached a certain point of sub-section (b). He wished to know whether the Minister for Education would include in the promise he had given consideration of the question of facilities, upon which inability to agree would probably more often arise than on the question of rent.
    MR. BIRRELLsaid he did not think he could give that pledge. Even sup-
    144
    posing that he did not keep his promise, in consequence of the opportunity for discussion in Committee not being reached, he adhered to what he had said and would do what he thought he ought to do on the Report stage. The promise did not carry with it the question of facilities.
    MR. WYNDHAM: That re-opens the whole question.
    MR. R. PEARCEtrusted that the Government would not give way at all. There was full security in the clause for fair dealing for all concerned, and it was very important when making schemes which would have the effect of an Act of Parliament and could not be reviewed by any Court that there should be the limitations contained in this clause. He thought that many who were concerned in trusts would welcome those limitations and that their existence would induce them to enter into schemes.
    SIR E. CARSONasked whether the Commissioners would be entitled to consider the mortgages and other charges on schools, which had provided the money for building the schools, and to say that they should be discharged by the local authorities. [" Oh.'] There was nothing unreasonable in that. There was a good deal of indignation amongst many persons interested in the schools that there would be no rent at all in certain cases.
    THE CHAIRMANsaid the right hon. Gentleman appeared to be talking of amending this portion of the clause, but the Amendment before the Committee was that it should be left out.
    SIR E. CARSONagreed, but said he wanted to know whether he would vote for keeping it in, and that depended upon whether the right hon. Gentleman would put these provisions in an equitable form. If they were left in their present position it appeared to him that they would be unfair, and he should vote for the Amendment of the noble Lord. If the right hon. Gentleman was, however, prepared to make the provisions more equitable he should advise his noble friend not to go to a

    145
    division on this Amendment. It was, therefore, of considerable importance that they should know what the Government were going to do. With regard to the right hon. Gentleman's statement as to the Commissioners' acting in accordance with the principles of the Court of Chancery, he thought he ought to say a word in defence of the Court of Chancery. To describe the functions of the Commissioners as being analogous to those of the Court of Chancery was grotesque. They would have no more connection with the principles of the Court of Chancery than the right hon. Gentleman or the Solicitor-General had when they answered Questions in this House on points of law.
    And, it being Eleven of the clock, the Chairman proceeded to interrupt the business.
    Whereupon Mr. BIRRELL rose in his place, and claimed to move, " That the Question be now put.
    MR. STANLEY WILSON: Did not the right hon. Gentleman rise after eleven o'clock?
    THE CHAIRMAN: The right hon. Gentleman rose at the moment of interruption of business.
    Question put, " That the Question be now put."
    The Committee divided:—Ayes, 320; Noes, 151. (Division List No. 190.)

    AYES.

    Acland, Francis Dyke

    Burns, Rt. Hon. John

    Dunne, MajorE.Martin(Walsall

    Allen, A. Acland(Christchurch)

    Burnyeat, J. D. W.

    Edwards, Clement (Denbigh)

    Allen, Charles P. (Stroud)

    Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas

    Edwards, Enoch (Hanley)

    Asquith, Rt. Hn. Herbert Henry

    Buxton, Rt. Hn. Sydney Charles

    Edwards, Frank (Radnor)

    Astbury, John Meir

    Byles, William Pollard

    Ellis, Rt. Hon. John Edward

    Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth)

    Cairns, Thomas

    Essex, R. W.

    Baker, JosephA.(Finsbury, E.)

    Carr-Gomm, H. W.

    Evans, Samuel T.

    Balfour, Robert (Lanark)

    Causton,Rt.Hn.Richard Knight

    Everett, R. Lacey

    Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight)

    Cawley, Frederick

    Fenwick, Charles

    Barlow, JohnEmmott(Somers't

    Chance, Frederick William

    Fiennes, Hon. Eustace

    Barlow, Percy (Bedford)

    Channing, Francis Allston

    Findlay, Alexander

    Barnard, E. B.

    Cheetham, John Frederick

    Foster, Rt. Hon. Sir Walter

    Barnes, G. N.

    Churchill, Winston Spencer

    Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

    Beale, W. P.

    Clarke, C. Goddard

    Fuller, John Michael F.

    Beauchamp, E.

    Cleland, J. W.

    Fullerton, Hugh

    Beaumont, Hubert(Eastbourne

    Clough, W.

    Furness, Sir Christopher

    Beaumont, W. C. B. (Hexham)

    Clynes, J. R.

    Gibb, James (Harrow)

    Bell, Richard

    Cobbold, Felix Thornley

    Gill, A. H.

    Bellairs, Carlyon

    Collins, Stephen (Lambeth)

    Gladstone, Rt.Hn.HerbertJohn

    Benn,Sir J. Williams(Devonp'rt

    Collins, Sir WmJ. (S. Pancras, W.

    Glover, Thomas

    Benn, W.(T'w'rHamlets,S.Geo.

    Cooper, G. J.

    Goddard, Daniel Ford

    Bennett, E. N.

    Corbett,C.H.(Sussex,EGrinst'd

    Grant, Corrie

    Berridge, T. H. D.

    Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.

    Greenwood, G. (Peterborouh)

    Bethell, J. H.(Essex, Romford)

    Cory, Clifford John

    Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward

    Bethell, T. R. (Essex, Maldon)

    Cotton, Sir H. J. S.

    Gulland, John W.

    Billson, Alfred

    Cowan, W. H.

    Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

    Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine

    Crean, Eugene

    Hall, Frederick

    Black, Arthur W.(Bedfordshire

    Cremer, William Randal

    Harcourt, Right. Hon. Lewis

    Bolton, T.D.(Derbyshire,N.E.)

    Crombie, John William

    Hardie, J.Keir(MerthyrTydvil)

    Boulton, A. C. F. (Ramsey)

    Crosfield, A. H.

    Hardy, George A. (Suffolk)

    Brace, William

    Crossley,William J.

    Harmsworth, Cecil B. (Worc'r)

    Bramsdon, T. A.

    Davies, Ellis William (Eifion)

    Hannsworth, R. L. (Caithn'ss-sh

    Branch, James

    Davies, Timothy (Fulham)

    Hart-Davies, T.

    Brigg, John

    Davies, W.Howell (Bristol, S.)

    Harvey, A. G. C (Rochdale)

    Bright, J. A.

    Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh.

    Harwood, George

    Brocklehurst, W. D.

    Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.

    Haslam, James (Derbyshire)

    Brodie, H. C.

    Dodd, W. H.

    Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth)

    Brooke, Stopford

    Duckworth, James

    Haworth, Arthur A.

    Brunner, J. F. L.(Lancs.,Leigh)

    Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness

    Hazel, Dr. A. E.

    Buckmaster, Stanley O.

    Duncan, J. H. (York, Otley)

    Hedges, A. Paget

    Helme, Norval Watson

    Montagu, E. S.

    Shaw, Rt, Hon. T. (Hawick, B.)

    Henry, Charles S.

    Montgomery, H. H.

    Shipman, Dr. John G.

    Herbert, Colonel Ivor(Mon.,S.)

    Morgan, G. Hay (Cornwall)

    Silcock, Thomas Ball

    Herbert, T. Arnold (Wycombe)

    Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen)

    Simon, John Allsebrook

    Higham, John Sharp

    Morley, Rt. Hon. John

    Sinclair, Rt. Hon. John

    Hobart, Sir Robert

    Morrell, Philip

    Sloan, Thomas Henry

    Hobhouse, Charles E. H.

    Morse, L. L.

    Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie

    Hodge, John

    Morton, Alpheus Cleophas

    Snowdon, P.

    Holden, E. Hopkinson

    Murray, James

    Soares, Ernest J.

    Holland, Sir William Henry

    Myer, Horatio

    Spicer, Albert

    Hope, John Deans (Fife, West)

    Napier, T. B.

    Stanley, Hn.A.Lyulph (Chesh.)

    Hope,W.Bateman(Somerset,N.

    Newnes, P. (Notts., Bassetlaw)

    Steadman, W. C.

    Horniman, Emslie John

    Nicholls, George

    Stewart, Halley (Greenock)

    Howard, Hon. Geoffrey

    Nicholson,CharlesN.(Doncast'r

    Stewart-Smith, D. (Kendal)

    Hudson, Walter

    Norman, Henry

    Strachey, Sir Enward

    Hyde, Clarendon

    Norton, Capt. Cecil William

    Straus, B. S. (Mile End)

    Illingworth, Percy H.

    Nussey, Thomas Willans

    Strauss, E. A. (Abingdon)

    Isaacs, Rufus Daniel

    Nuttall, Harry

    Stuart, James (Sunderland)

    Jackson,R. S.

    O'Donnell, C. J. (Walworth)

    Summerbell, T.

    Jenkins, J.

    Parker, James (Halifax)

    Sutherland, J. E.

    Johnson, John (Gateshead)

    Partington, Oswald

    Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth)

    Johnson, W. (Nuneaton)

    Paul, Herbert

    Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)

    Jones, Sir D. Brynmor(Swansea

    Paulton, James Mellor

    Tennant, Sir Edward(Salisbury

    Jones, Leif (Appleby)

    Pearce, Robert (Staffs., Leek)

    Tennant, H.J.(Berwickshire)

    Jones, William(Camarvonshire

    Pearce, William (Limehouse)

    Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.)

    Jowett, F. W.

    Pearson, SirW.D. (Colchester)

    Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.)

    Kekewich, Sir George

    Pearson, W.H.M.(Suffolk, Eye)

    Thomas. David Alfred(Merthyr

    Kincaid-Smith, Captain

    Philipps, Col.Ivor(S'thampton)

    Thompson, J.W.H(Somerset,E

    King, Alfred John (Knutsford)

    Philipps, J.Wynford(Pembroke

    Tillett, Louis John

    Kitson, Sir James

    Philipps, Owen C. (Pembroke)

    Torrance, A. M.

    Laidlaw, Robert

    Pickersgill, Edward Hare

    Toulmin, George

    Lamb, Edmund G.(Leominster)

    Pirie, Duncan V.

    Trevelyan. Charles Philips

    Lamb, Ernest H. (Rochester)

    Pollard, Dr.

    Verney, F. W.

    Lambert, George

    Price, C.E.(Edinburgh,Central)

    Vivian, Henry

    Lamont, Norman

    Price, Robert John(Norfolk,E.)

    Walker, H. De R. (Leicester)

    Layland-Barratt, Francis

    Radford, G. H.

    Walsh, Stephen

    Lea, Hugh Cecil(St.Pancras, E.

    Raphael, Herbert H.

    Walters, John Tudor

    Leese, Sir JosephF. (Accrington

    Rea, Russell (Gloucester)

    Walton, Sir John L. (Leeds, S.

    Lever,A.Levy (Essex,Harwich)

    Rees, J. D.

    Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

    Lever, W. H. (Cheshire, Wirral)

    Renton, Major Leslie

    Wardle, George J.

    Levy, Maurice

    Richards, Thomas(W.Monm'th

    Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan)

    Lewis, John Herbert

    Richardson, A.

    Wason, John Cathcart(Orkney)

    Lloyd-George, Rt. Hon. David

    Rickett, J. Compton

    Waterlow, D. S.

    Lough, Thomas

    Ridsdale, E. A.

    Watt, H. Anderson

    Lupton, Arnold

    Roberts, Charles H (Lincoln)

    Wedgwood, Josiah C

    Luttrell, Hugh Fownes

    Roberts, G. H. (Norwich)

    Weir, James Galloway

    Lyell, Charles Henry

    Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)

    White, George (Norfolk)

    Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester)

    Robertson. Rt. Hn.E.(Dundee)

    White, J. D. (Dumbartonshire)

    Macdonald, J.M.(FalkirkB'ghs.

    Robertson,SirG.Scott(Bradf'rd

    Whitehead, Rowland

    Mackarness, Frederic C.

    Robinson, S.

    Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

    Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.

    Robson, Sir William Snowdon

    Whittaker, Sir Thomas Palmer

    M'Arthur, William

    Roe, Sir Thomas

    Wiles, Thomas

    M'Crae, George

    Rogers, P. E. Newman

    Williams, J. (Glamorgan)

    M'Kenna, Reginald

    Rowlands, J.

    Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)

    M'Laren, Sir C. B. (Leicester)

    Runciman, Walter

    Williamson, A.

    M'Laren, H. D. (Stafford, W.)

    Russell, T. W.

    Wills, Arthur Walters

    M'Micking, Major G.

    Rutherford, V. H. (Brentford)

    Wilson, Henry J. (York, W.R.)

    Maddison, Frederick

    Samuel, Herbert L.(Cleveland)

    Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.

    Mallet, Charles E.

    Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel)

    Wilson, J. W.(Worcestersh.,N.

    Manfield, Harry (Northants)

    Scarisbrick, T. T. L.

    Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)

    Marks, G-Croydon(Launceston)

    Schwann, C. Duncan (Hyde)

    Winfrey, E.

    Marnham, F. J.

    Schwann, Sir C.E.(Manchester)

    Wodehouse, Lord(Norfolk,Mid)

    Mason, A. E. W. (Coventry)

    Scott, A.H. (Ashton-und.-Lyne

    Wood, T. M'Kinnon

    Massie, J.

    Sears, J. E.

    Woodhouse, SirJ.T(Hudd'rsfi'd

    Menzies, Walter

    Seaverns, J. H.

    Micklem, Nathaniel

    Seddon, J.

    TELLERSW FOR THE AYES—Mr.

    Molteno, Percy Alport

    Seely, Major J. B.

    Whiteley and Mr. J. A.

    Money, L. G. Chiozza

    Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)

    Pease.

    148

    149

    NOES.

    Abraham, William (Cork,N.E.)

    Finch, Rt. Hon. George H.

    Nolan, Joseph

    Anson, Sir William Reynell

    Flavin, Michael Joseph

    O'Brien, Kendal (Tipper'ryMid

    Arkwright, John Stanhope

    Fletcher, J. S.

    O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

    Arnold-Forster,Rt.Hn.HughO.

    Flynn, James Christopher

    O'Connor, James(Wicklow, W.

    Ashley, W. W.

    Forster, Henry William

    O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)

    Balcarres, Lord

    Gardner, Ernest (Berks, East)

    O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)

    Balfour, Rt.Hn. A. J.(City Lond)

    Gibbs, G. A. (Bristol, West)

    O'Dowd, John

    Banbury, Sir Frederick George

    Gilhooly, James

    O'Hare, Patrick

    Baring, Hon. Guy (Winchester

    Ginnell, L.

    O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.)

    Barrie, H. T. (Londonderry, N.)

    Haddock, George R.

    O'Kelly,James(Roscommon.N.

    Beach, Hn.Michael Hugh Hicks

    Halpin, J.

    O'Malley, William

    Beckett, Hon. Gervase

    Hammond, John

    O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

    Bignold, Sir Arthur

    Hardy, Laurence(Kent, Ashf'rd

    Parkes, Ebenezer

    Blake, Edward

    Harrison-Broadley, Col. H. B.

    Pease, HerbertPike(Darlington

    Boland, John

    Hay, Hon. Claude George

    Percy, Earl

    Boyle, Sir Edward

    Hayden, John Patrick

    Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

    Bridgeman, W. Clive

    Helmsley, Viscount

    Power, Patrick Joseph

    Brotherton, Edward Allen

    Hervey,F.W.F.(BuryS.Edm'ds

    Ratcliff, Major R. F.

    Bull, Sir William James

    Hill, Sir Clement (Shrewsbury)

    Rawlinson, John FrederickPeel

    Burdett-Coutts, W.

    Hill, Henry Staveley (Staff'sh.)

    Reddy, M.

    Burke, E. Haviland

    Hills, J. W.

    Redmond, John E.(Waterford)

    Butcher, Samuel Henry

    Hogan, Michael

    Redmond, William (Clare)

    Campbell, Rt, Hon. J H. M.

    Houston, Robert Paterson

    Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall)

    Carlile, E. Hildred

    Hunt, Rowland

    Rutherford, John (Lancashire)

    Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

    Joyce, Michael

    Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool)

    Castlereagh, Viscount

    Kennaway, Rt.Hn.Sir John H.

    Salter, Arthur Clavell

    Cave, George

    Kennedy, Vincent Paul

    Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert

    Cavendish, Rt. Hn.Victor C.W.

    Kenyon-Slaney, Rt. Hn.Col. W-

    Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

    Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

    Kilbride, Denis

    Sheehan, Daniel Daniel

    Cecil, Lord John P. Joicey

    King, SirHenrySeymour(Hull)

    Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East)

    Cecil, Lord R. (Marylebone, E.

    Lane-Fox, G. R.

    Smith, F.F.(Liverpool, Walton)

    Chamberlain,Rt.Hn.J.A(Worc

    Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, W.)

    Starkey, John R.

    Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

    Leo, ArthurH(Hants.,Farcham

    Sullivan, Donal

    Condon, Thomas Joseph

    Long, Col.Charles W.(Evesham

    Talbot, Rt,Hn.J.G.(Oxf'dUniv.

    Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow)

    Lundon, W.

    Thomson, W.Mitchell (Lanark)

    Courthope, G. Loyd

    Lyttleton, Rt. Hon. Alfred

    Thornton, Percy M.

    Craig, Charles Curtis(Antrim,S.

    MacIver, David (Liverpool)

    Turnour, Viscount

    Craik, Sir Henry

    MacNeill, John Gordon Swift

    Walker, Col. W.H. (Lancashire)

    Cullinan, J.

    MacVeagh, Jeremiah (Down,S.

    Walrond, Hon. Lionel

    Dalrymple, Viscount

    MacVeigh, Charles (Donegal, E.

    Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid)

    Delany, William

    M'Kean. John

    White, Patrick (Meath, North)

    Devlin, Charles Ramsay(Galw'y

    M'Kilop, W.

    Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.)

    Dillon, John

    Magnus, Sir Philip

    Wilson, A. Stanley(York,E.R.)

    Dolan, Charles Joseph

    Marks, H. H. (Kent)

    Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart

    Donelan, Captain A.

    Mason, James F. (Windsor)

    Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

    Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers

    Meagher, Michael

    Young, Samuel

    Duffy, William J.

    Meysey-Thompson, E. C.

    Younger, George

    Duncan, Robert(LanarkGovan

    Mooney, J. J.

    Faber, George Denison (York)

    Morpeth, Viscount

    TELLERS FOR THE NOSE. — Sir

    Faber, Capt W. V. (Hants, W.

    Muntz, Sir Philip A.

    Alexander Acland-Hood and

    Fardell, Sir T. George

    Murphy, John

    Viscount Valentia.

    Fell, Arthur

    Nield, Herbert

    Question put accordingly, " That the words proposed to be left out, to the
    The Committee divided:—Ayes, 320; Noes, 150. (Division List No.

    AYES.

    Acland, Francis Dyke

    Balfour, Robert (Lanark)

    Beauchamp, E.

    Allen,A. Acland (Christchurch)

    Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight)

    Beaumont, Hubert(Eastbourne

    Allen, Charles P. (Stroud)

    Barlow, JohnEmmott(Somerset

    Beaumont, W. C. B. (Hexham)

    Asquith, Rt.Hn. Herbert Henry

    Barlow, Percy (Bedford)

    Bell, Richard

    Astbury, John Meir

    Barnard, E. B.

    Bellairs, Carlyon

    Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth)

    Barnes. G. N.

    Benn,Sir J.Williams(Devonp'rt

    Baker, Joseph A. (Finsbury.E.)

    Beale, W. P.

    Benn, W.(T'w'rHamlets,S.Geo.

    Bennett, E. N.

    Fullerton, Hugh

    Lupton, Arnold

    Berridge, T. H. D.

    Furness, Sir Christopher

    Luttrell, Hugh Fownes

    Bethell, J.H. (Essex, Romford)

    Gibb, James (Harrow)

    Lyell, Charles Henry

    Bethell, T. R. (Essex, Maldon)

    Gill, A. H.

    Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester)

    Billson, Alfred

    Gladstone,Rt.Hn. Herbert John

    Macdonald.J.M. (Falkirk B'ghs

    Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine

    Glover, Thomas

    Mackarness, Frederic C.

    Black, ArthurW. (Bedfordshire

    Goddard, Danill Ford

    Macnamara. Dr. Thomas J.

    Bolton, T. D.(Derbyshire,N.E.)

    Grant, Corrie

    M'Arthur, William

    Boulton, A. C. F (Ramsey)

    Greenwood, G. (Peterborough)

    M'Crae, George

    Brace, William

    Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward

    M'Kenna, Reginald

    Bramsdon, T. A.

    Gulland, John W.

    M'Laren, Sir C. B. (Leicester)

    Branch, James

    Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

    M'Laren, H. D. (Stafford, W.)

    Brigg, John

    Hall, Frederick

    M'Micking, Major G.

    Bright, J. A.

    Harcourt, Right Hon. Lewis

    Maddison, Frederick

    Brocklehurst, W. D.

    Hardie, J. Keir (MerthyrTydvil)

    Mallet, Charles E.

    Brodie, H. C.

    Hardy, George A. (Suffolk)

    Manfield, Harry (Northants)

    Brooke. Stopford

    Harmsworth, Cecil B. (Worc'r)

    Marks, G. Croydon(Launceston)

    Brunner, J.F.L. (Lanes., Leigh)

    Harmsworth,R.L.(Caithn'ss-sh

    Marnham, F. J.

    Buckmaster, Stanley O.

    Hart-Davies, T.

    Mason, A. E. W. (Coventry)

    Burns, Rt. Hon. John

    Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale)

    Massie, J.

    Burnyeat, J. D. W.

    Harwood, George

    Menzies, Walter

    Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas

    Haslam, James (Derbyshire)

    Micklem, Nathaniel

    Buxton, Rt.Hn. Sydney Charles

    Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth)

    Molteno, Percy Alport

    Byles, William Pollard

    Haworth, Arthur A.

    Money, L. G. Chiozza

    Cairns, Thomas

    Hazel, Dr. A. E.

    Montagu, E. S.

    Carr-Gomm, H. W.

    Hedges, A. Paget

    Montgomery, H. H.

    Causton,Rt.Hn.RichardKnight

    Helme, Norval Watson

    Morgan, G. Hay (Cornwall)

    Cawley, Frederick

    Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

    Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen)

    Chance, Frederick William

    Henry, Charles S.

    Morley, Rt. Hon. John

    Channing, Francis Allston

    Herbert, Colonel Ivor (Mon.,S.)

    Morrell, Philip

    Cheetham, John Frederick

    Herbert, T. Arnold (Wycombe)

    Morse, L. L.

    Churchill, Winston Spencer

    Higham, John Sharp

    Morton, Alpheus Cleophas

    Clarke, C. Goddard

    Hobart, Sir Robert

    Murray, James

    Cleland, J. W.

    Hobhouse, Charles E. H.

    Myer, Horatio

    Clough, W.

    Hodge, John

    Napier, T. B.

    Clvnes, J. R.

    Holden, E. Hokpinson

    Newnes, F. (Notts, Bassetlaw)

    Cobbold, Felix Thornley

    Holland, Sir William Henry

    Nicholls, George

    Collins, Stephen (Lambeth)

    Hope, John Deans (Fife, West)

    Nicholson,CharlesN.(Doncast'r

    Collins,SirWm.J.(S.Pancras,W.

    Hope,W.Bateman (Somerset.N

    Norman, Henry

    Cooper, G. J.

    Horniman, Emslie John

    Norman, Capt. Cecil William

    Corbett, CH.(Sussex,E.Grinst'd

    Howard, Hon. Geoffrey

    Nussey, Thomas Willans

    Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.

    Hudson, Walter

    Nuttall, Harry

    Cory, Clifford John

    Hyde, Clarendon

    O'Donnell, C. J. (Walworth)

    Cotton, Sir H. J. S.

    Illingworth, Percy H.

    Parker, James (Halifax)

    Cowan, W. H.

    Isaacs, Rufus Daniel

    Partington, Oswald

    Cremer, William Randal

    Jackson, R. S.

    Paul, Herbert

    Crombie, John William

    Jardine, Sir J.

    Paulton, James Mellor

    Crosfield, A. H.

    Jenkins, J.

    Pearce, Robert (Staffs. Leek)

    Crossley, William J.

    Johnson, John (Gateshead)

    Pearce, William (Limehouse)

    Davis, Ellis William (Eifion)

    Johnson, W. (Nuneaton)

    Pearson, Sir W. D. (Colchester)

    Davies, Timothy (Fulham)

    Jones.Sir D.Brynmor(Swansea)

    Pearson,W.H.M.(Suffolk, Eye)

    Davies, W. Howell (Bristol, S.)

    Jones, Leif (Appleby)

    Philipps,Col. Ivor(S'thampton)

    Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh.)

    Jones,William (Carnarvonshire

    Philipps.J. Wynford (Pembroke

    Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.

    Jowett, F. W.

    Philipps, Owen C.(Pembroke)

    Dodd, W. H.

    Kekewich, Sir George

    Pickersgill, Edward Hare

    Duckworth, James

    Kincaid-Smith, Captain

    Pirie, Duncan V.

    Duncan, C.(Barrow-in-Furness)

    King, Alfred John (Knutsford)

    Pollard, Dr.

    Duncan, J. H. (York, Otley)

    Kitson, Sir James

    Price, C. K.(Edinburgh,Central)

    Dunne,Major E.Martin(Walsall

    Laidlaw, Robert

    Pric ,Rob rt John(Norfolk, E.)

    Edwards, Clement (Denbigh)

    Lamb, Edmund G.(Leominster)

    Radford, G. H.

    Edwards, Enoch (Hanley)

    Lamb, Ernest H. (Rochester)

    Raphael, Herbert H.

    Edwards, Frank (Radnor)

    Lambert, George

    Rea, Russell (Gloucester)

    Ellis, Rt. Hon. John Edward

    Lamont, Norman

    Rees, J. D.

    Essex, R. W.

    Layland-Barratt, Francis

    Renton, Major Leslie

    Evans, Samuel T.

    Lea, Hugh Cecil (St. Pancras.E.

    Richards,Thomas(W.Monm'th)

    Everett, R. Lacey

    Leese,Sir JosephF. (Accrington)

    Richardson, A.

    Fenwick, Charles

    Lever,A Levy(Essex,Harwich)

    Rickett, J. Compton

    Fiennes, Hon. Eustace

    Lever, W. H. (Cheshire, Wirral)

    Ridsdale, E. A.

    Findlay, Alexander

    Levy, Maurice

    Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)

    Foster, Rt, Hon. Sir Walter

    Lewis, John Herbert

    Roberts, G. H. (Norwich)

    Fowler, Rt Hon. Sir Henry

    Lloyd-George, Rt. Hon. David

    Roberts, John H. (Denbighs)

    Fuller, John Michael F.

    Lough, Thomas

    Robertson, Rt.Hn.E. (Dundee)

    152

    153

    Robertson.Sir G Scott(Bradf'rd

    Spicer, Albert

    Wardle, George J.

    Robinson, S.

    Stanley,Hn. A. Lyulph (Chesh.

    Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan)

    Robson, Sir William Snowdon

    Steadman, W. C.

    Wason, JohnCathcart (Orkney

    Roe, Sir Thomas

    Stewart, Halley (Greenock)

    Waterlow, D. S.

    Rogers, F. E. Newman

    Stewart-Smith, D. (Kendal)

    Watt, H. Anderson

    Rowlands, J.

    Strachey, Sir Edward

    Wedgwood, Josiah C.

    Runciman, Walter

    Straus, B. S. (Mile End)

    Weir, James Galloway

    Russell, T. W.

    Strauss, E. A. (Abingdon)

    White George (Norfolk)

    Rutherford, V. H. (Brentford)

    Stuart, James (Sunderland)

    White, J. D.(Dumbartonshire)

    Samuel, Herbert L.(Cleveland)

    Summerbell, T.

    Whitehead, Rowland

    Samuel, S. M. (Whitchapel)

    Sutherland, J. E.

    Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

    Scarisbrick, T. T. L.

    Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth)

    Whittaker, Sir Thomas Palmer

    Schwann, C. Duncan (Hyde)

    Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)

    Wiles, Thomas

    Schwann, SirC.E. (Manchester)

    Tennant, Sir Edward(Salisbury

    Williams, J. (Glamorgan)

    Seott,A.H.(Ashton-under-Lyne

    Tennant, H. J. (Berwickshire)

    Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)

    Sears, J. E.

    Thomas Abel (Carmarthen, E.)

    Williamson, A.

    Seaverns, J. H.

    Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.)

    Wills, Arthur Walters

    Seddon, J.

    Thomas,David Alfred(Merthyr

    Wison, Henry J. (York, W.R.)

    Seely, Major J. B.

    Thompson, T. W. H. (Somerset.E

    Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)

    Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)

    Torrance, A. M.

    Wilson, J.W.(Worcestersh. N.)

    Shaw, Rt. Hon. T. (Hawick B.)

    Toulmin, George

    Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)

    Shipman, Dr. John G.

    Trevelyan, Charles Philips

    Winfrey, R.

    Silcock, Thomas Ball

    Verney, F. W.

    Wodehouse,Lord(Norfolk, Mid

    Simon, John Allsebrook

    Vivian, Henry

    Wood, T. M'Kinnon

    Sinclair, Rt. Hon. John

    Walker, H. De R. (Leicester)

    Woodhouse,SirJ.T.(Hudd'rsf'd

    Sloan, Thomas Henry

    Walsh, Stephen

    Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie

    Walters, John Tudor

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr.

    Snowdon, P.

    Walton, Sir John L. (Leeds, S.)

    Whiteley and Mr. J. A.

    Soares, Ernest J.

    Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

    Pease.

    NOSE.

    Abraham, William (Cork, N.E.

    Craig, Charles Curtis (Antrim.S.

    Hill, Sir Clement (Shrewsbury

    Acland-Hood,Rt.Hn SirAlex. F

    Craik, Sir Henry

    Hill, Henry Staveley (Staff'sh.

    Anson, Sir William Reynell

    Crean, Eugene

    Hills, J. W.

    Arnold-Forster,Rt Hn Hugh O.

    Cullinan, J.

    Hogan, Michael

    Ashley, W. W.

    Dalrymple, Viscount

    Houston, Robert Paterson

    Balcarres, Lord

    Delany, William

    Hunt, Rowland

    Balfour,RtHn.A.J.(CityLond.)

    Devlin,Charles Ramsay (Galway

    Joyce, Michael

    Banbury, Sir Frederick Georg

    Dillon, John

    Kennedy, Vincent Paul

    Baring, Hon. Guy (Winchester)

    Dolan, Charles Joseph

    Kenyon-Slaney,Rt.Hon.Col.W.

    Barrie, H. T.(Londonderry, N.)

    Donelan, Captain A.

    Kilbride, Denis

    Beach, Hn. Michael Hugh Hicks

    Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

    King,Sir HenrySeymour(Hull)

    Beckett, Hon. Gervase

    Duffy, William J.

    Lane-Fox, G. R.

    Bignold, Sir Arthur

    Duncan,Robert(Lanark,Govan

    Lawl Hugh A. (Donegal, W.)

    Blake, Edward

    Faber, George Denison (York)

    Lee,ArthurH.(Hants.,Fareham

    Boland, John

    Faber, Capt, W. V. (Hants, W.)

    Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham

    Boyle, Sir Edward

    Fardell, Sir T. George

    Lundon, W.

    Bridgeman, W. Clive

    Fell, Arthur

    Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred

    Brotherton, Edward Allen

    Finch, Rt. Hon. George H.

    MacNeill, John Gordon Swift

    Bull, Sir William James

    Flavin, Michael Joseph

    MacVeagh, Jeremiah (Down,S.)

    Burdett-Coutts, W.

    Fletcher, J. S.

    Mac Veigh,Charles(Donegal,E.)

    Burke, E. Haviland-

    Flynn, James Christopher

    M'Kean, John

    Butcher, Samuel Henry

    Forster, Henry William

    M'Killop, W.

    Campbell, Rt. Hon. J. H. M.

    Gardner, Ernest (Berks, East)

    Magnus, Sir Philip

    Carlile, E. Hildred

    Gibbs, G. A. (Bristol, West)

    Marks, H. H. (Kent)

    Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

    Gilhooly, James

    Mason, James F. (Windsor)

    Castlereagh, Viscount

    Ginnell, L.

    Meagher, Michael

    Cave, George

    Haddock, George R.

    Meysey-Thompson, E. C.

    Cavendish, Rt. Hn. Victor C.W.

    Halpin, J.

    Mooney, J. J.

    Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

    Hammond, John

    Morpeth, Viscount

    Cecil, Lord John P. Joicey-

    Hardy ,Laurence(Kent,Ashford

    Muntz, Sir Philip A.

    Chamberlain, Rt. Hn.J.A(Worc.

    Harrison-Broadley, Col. H. B.

    Murphy, John

    Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

    Hay, Hon. Claude George

    Nield, Herbert

    Condon, Thomas Joseph

    Hayden, John Patrick

    Nolan, Joseph

    Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow)

    Helmsley, Viscount

    O'Brien,Kendal (TipperaryMid

    Courthope, G. Loyd

    Hervey,F.W.F(BuryS.Edm'ds

    O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

    154

    155

    O'Connor, James (Wicklow.W.)

    Redmond, John E. (Waterford)

    Valentia, Viscount

    O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)

    Redmond, William (Clare)

    Walker, Col. W.H. (Lancashire)

    O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)

    Roberts, S. (Sheffield.Ecclesall)

    Walrond, Hon. Lionel

    O'Dowd, John

    Rutherford, John (Lancashire)

    Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid)

    O'Hare, Patrick

    Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool)

    White, Patrick (Meath, North)

    O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.)

    Salter, Arthur Clavell

    Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.)

    O'Kelly, James(Roscommon,N.

    Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert

    Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E.R.)

    O'Malley, William

    Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

    Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-

    O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

    Sheehan, Daniel Daniel

    Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

    Parkes, Ebenezer

    Smith, Abel H.(Hertford,East)

    Young, Samuel

    Pease,Herbert Pike(Darlington

    Smith,F.E. (Liverpool, Walton)

    Younger, George

    Percy, Earl

    Starkey, John R.

    Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

    Sullivan, Donal

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Lord

    Power, Patrick Joseph

    Talbot, Rt.Hn. J.G.(Oxf'dUniv.

    Robert Cecil and Mr. Ark-

    Ratcliff, Major R. F.

    Thomson, W.Mitchell-(Lanark)

    wright.

    Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel

    Thornton, Percy M.

    Reddy, M.

    Turnour, Viscount

    word ' sufficient,' in line 19, stand part of the clause." 191.)
    And, it being after Eleven of the clock, the Chairman left the Chair to make his Report to the House.
    Committee report Progress; to sit again upon Monday next.

    MUSICAL COPYRIGHT BILL.
    Order for the House to be put into Committee read.
    MR. T. P. O'CONNORsaid that in reference to this Bill, he had had some consultation with his hon. friend the Member for Bolton, who had met him in a very reasonable spirit, and said that if the Government would take the responsibility of conducting the Bill through the House his opposition to it would cease. He thought that was a very fair and reasonable offer on the part of the hon. Gentleman, and as he had received an intimation that the Government would take responsibility for the Bill, he hoped hon. Members would allow the Committee stage to be taken.
    MR. HARWOODsaid hitherto he had objected to the Bill on the ground
    156
    that any such departure in the criminal law as was therein contemplated ought not to be made on the initiative of a private Member, and after eleven o'clock. If he received an assurance from the Government that they accepted responsibility for the Bill he should no longer maintain his objection.
    THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE HOME DEPARTMENT (Mr. GLADSTONE,): The view of the Government on this Bill is well known. We are extremely anxious to see it passed into law. I have put down some Amendments which we think are desirable, and I do hope the House will consent to take the Committee stage.
    MR. CREAN: I object.
    The consideration of the Bill was, thereupon, deferred.
    And, it being half-past Eleven of the clock, Mr. SPEAKER adjourned the House without Question put, pursuant to the Standing Order.
    Adjourned at half after Eleven o'clock.